# New & desperate...



## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

Hello - not sure really where to start or where I should be posting this but anyway....  have been ttc for 3 years and my DH has been diagnosed with low sperm count.  We have had 5 ICSI treatments already.  2 at UCH where we produced terrible quality embryos each time and the consultant basically told us we should seriously think about whether or not we should carry on (which we were obviously totally shocked about).  Anyway we then moved to Holly House in Buckhurst Hill, Essex, where we had a further 2 treatments and produced slightly better embryos but still not that great.  They told us our best option might be to use donor eggs as they thought maybe my egg quality isn't that great.  My womb lining isn't that great either - usually between about 6-7 but I think they like it to be above 8.  Anyway amazingly my cousin (who has got a set of twins now on her 5th IVF attempt) offered to be a donor for me. We went through a treatment end of last year which also failed!  They still told us to carry on with the egg donor and that maybe my cousin needed more drugs this time around as she only produced 5 eggs last time (and during her own previous treatments also produced over 15)!  We were about to start treatment again but sadly my uncle died so we postponed it and will start in a couple of months I think.  Basically both me & my DH feel at the end of our tether and so so depressed about it all.  EVERYONE around us is pg!  4 of my close friends too which is so hard to deal with. Trying to be happy for them all but at the same time making me feel even worse about everything.  We feel like nobody knows what we are going through and we are totally alone. I am 36 and my DH is 38.
Sorry to ramble on so much but I feel like my story is so long and needed to give you all the info.  Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  Could someone also tell me how to add the history thing at the bottom of each post?  Thank you for listening x


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## rosy (Mar 31, 2004)

Hi RubyRoo

I really feel for you. We have also been through a lot and I'm currently on my 5th 2ww and have never had a BFP.

This site is a great outlet to just feel more normal, especially some of the posts where people let off steam about how unfair life is as everyone around you drops pregnant at the drop of the hat, and the fact that no-one who hasn't been through this can understand how devastating it is. I often think really awful things and then feel bad for being so negative and self centred, and reading other people's posts makes me realise that actually it's not surprising considering the stress we go through.

There's also lots of info on this site. Although I don't know if it will work (and right now I'm feeling pretty pessimistic) for our last ivf we went to the states and for the first time ever produced grade one embryos - we think it is in part down to the different protocol and in part down to months of healthy living. They also use viagra and terbutaline to increase womb lining as they look for a 9mm lining as a minimum. So there may be other things available to support your treatment and improve your chances of success.

there's not much I can say to make you feel better but sometimes it's enough to know that you're not alone.

kind regards and good luck

Rosy


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## lisa n (Mar 16, 2005)

H Rubyroo

Hello and welcome 

So sorry to hear of your troubles it sounds like you've both had a rough time of it lately. I wish i could offer some sound advice but this is all fairly new to me as well.So i will send you my love and best of luck for the future 

To Put all the jargon at the bottom follow this
At top off the page go into profile
On left hand side see "modify profile"
Click onto "forum profile info"
You can write your description in signature and fill in the other bits....dob,which hospital and also select a picture! 
Last thing click on "change profile" 

Good luck hope it helps.

Bye for now lisa n


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## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

RubyRoo - welcome to the ICSI board! As you can see there are lots of threads going on and you would be welcome to join any of them, just jump straight in.  I post in Male factor and Inbetweenies (Mookie set up inbetweenies so there was somewhere we could all chat without  talking about our treatment) but you may find a thread that is linked with your clinic.
It sounds like you had a really rough time, but don't worry, now you've found a new home where you can make new friends who can support you in even your darkest hour - I couldn't get through it with out these girls (and the two Andys!)
Lots of love
Lizi


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## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

hi ladies,
thanks for your replies and it does help knowing there are others out there going through similar things.  rosy, why did you decide to go to the states for your last treatment and how does it all work there? i'm curious about how you made that decision? what were the clinics here saying to you?  where did you have your treatments here?  sorry for all the questions (i'm sure you can do without them right now too)!  i've already been taking viagra for the womb lining but didn't make any difference!  i can't believe that nothing ever makes a difference to us!  keep trying all these different things in the hope that it will tip the balance in our favour but it never does! so frustrating!  anyway, i'm keeping everything crossed for you and hope you are resting and relaxing too. lots of love


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## marly (Oct 17, 2004)

Ho RubyRoo

I'm so sorry that you've had such a rough time and I completely know what you mean about everyone around you getting pregnant.
The donor egg cycle sounds exciting and I wish you all the best for it.
As far as your past experiences go - re the womb lining there are treatments for this (although not all clinics use them) also re your eggs - have you got a high FSH? if not then I don't understand why your eggs should be any worse than the rest of us.

Finally, and please don't think I'm being negative I just think that in this rollercoaster ride you should plan for every possibility - if you are unsuccessful I would strongly suggest you change clinic. I had my treatment at the ARGC which is very American in its approach they monitor daily throughout the cycle with blood tests and scans and they do EC/ET 7 days a week therefore when you are ready not when its convenient. Also they use the whole range of therapies for womb lining and immune issues etc. Many of the girls at the ARGC have failed elsewhere and their success rates are the highest in the country. (have a look on the ARGC girls thread)

Whatever you decide to do I wish you and DH loads of luck for your next Tx

lots of love 

Marly


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## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

hi marly,
thanks for your advice and i found it really interesting.  i just feel so confused basically. my clinic have tried me on viagra and asprin for the womb lining but that didn't work and they've said there is nothing else they can do - it is what it is basically!  and as for my eggs - i don't have high FSH but we had 4 treatments (before we switched to using donor eggs on the 5th one) and every time produced pretty bad quality embryos so the consultant ended up saying that even though my eggs look ok on the surface perhaps they might not be?  i have to admit i do find it all a bit strange but they advised us that it's usually an egg problem rather than a sperm problem that causes bad quality embryos?  you end up just not knowing what to believe.  i mean my husband obviously has low sperm count but they've said as long as there's enough to perform the ISCI with it shouldn't mean there should be other problems with the sperm?  i have been wondering about trying at ARGC and actually has a consultation there about 6 months ago.  but they basically went on about doing biopsys of our embroys and almost said it won't help you get pregnant but might help diagnose the problem.  they told us to do that alongside a treatment would cost us about £9000 and they couldn't really guarantee even having decent embroyos to put back in at the end of it all!  Anyway basically my cousin then offered to be a donor for us so we stuck with the clinic we were at (because it's local to her also) and here we are!  God i'm rambling so much aren't I - sorry!  Anyway i'd be interested to hear your views on ARCG and what they told us and what sort of womb lining treatments you have heard about?  thanks for listening to me


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## marly (Oct 17, 2004)

Dear RubyRoo

Theres so much to think about with IVF/ICSI that its hard to know where the problem is. I'm not sure what the treatments for womb lining are (as I was lucky enough not to need them) but I'm sure there are other girls on these threads that do.
As far as embryo quality goes again it depends on how carefully your stims have been controlled in order to get mature eggs and of course on the sperm as well - genetic testing on the embryos is somethimes done to see if there is a mutation that prevents development and implantation.

You are right to be confused cos it all is very confusing but the most important thing is that you are confident with and have faith in your current clinic so you can go for the donor egg cycle in a really positive frame of mind. If your eggs are the issue then this could be the one and you must give yourself the best chance by being in the right psycological state.
It would probably be best to not think beyond this for now but keep a little plan B in the back of your mind should you need it.

Finally the ARGC are expensive - my ICSI cost £9000 all in and my FET cycle £5000 (which is a lot for natural FET)

Finally finally my womb lining was 7mm with my natural FET cycle (no drugs so this is what it normally is like I guess) and it worked so don't fret too much over that particular issue.

I hope some of this helps

love


Marly


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## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

wow, thanks for all that marly, much appreciated and i think you are probably right - one step at a time - but just can't help worrying about whether i'm doing the right thing or not - oh well time will tell i suppose!
what exactly is a natural FET?  and blimey ARGC are expensive - how come your ICSI was £9000?  did you have the biopsy stuff done or is it just generally that much there?  i've already spent £25,000 so i'm not sure i can afford £9,000 a time for ICSI there but then again if it works i suppose it's ok? oh dear what to do!  good to hear that you have been successful with a 7mm womb lining though - did they ever think that was a problem?  god, i'm bombarding you with questions - i'll go away now!


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## rosy (Mar 31, 2004)

HI RubyRoo

hope you're feeling a bit better and a bit hopeful.

we chose to go to the states because when we spoke to them we felt they were most responsive to our individual situation. I haven't had a consult with the ARGC though, but I have heard a lot of positive feedback about them and even though they are expensive, going to the states costs a fortune, we've had to remortgage to cover everything and i still don't know if it's even worked.

like you we were initially diagnosed with MF. and i thought I would get pregnant really easily with ICSI - if only! Since then I have been diagnosed with elevated killer cells too.

for my treatment in the states I took viagra suppositories and terbutaline tablets - the terbutaline tablets are not nice to take, I took them three times a day and it's like having a really really strong black coffee - your heart races and you shake, but it is supposed to improve the lining so I went for it. 

We've had two treatments in the states (we paid for a buy one get one free if it doesn't work package). For our first treatment (which was not successful) I had grade two embryos, which is consistent with all my other attempts. The doctor changed my protocol slightly to focus on quality not quantity and I was cynical that it would make a difference but for this last treatment, I had grade one embryos, so it looks like he did know what he was doing after all!

However one of my cycle buddies on the treatment at the same clinic had consistently poor quality embryos, so they advised her to use donor eggs. I guess there's some improvements which are possible and some which arent' but they seemed clued up as to what to advise different couples.

let me know if theres' any more info I can help with and good luck

Rosy


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## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

hey rosy,
thanks for your reply. sounds like you completely researched everything thoroughly - i wouldn't even know where to start on the america thing - how did you find out about it.  how does it work - do you have to stay over there for the whole treatment? i'm not surprised it cost a fortune!  we have already taken money out of our house twice and our our parents quite a bit of money too - it's all so depressing and expensive.  did you have a problem with your womb lining before you took the viagra & terbutaline?  did it work?  can you remember how exactly the doctor changed the protocol to get the good quality embryos? well anyway it sounds very positive for you. how are you feeling? when is your 2ww over? it's all so nerve racking isn't it.  i'm going to have a look at the terbutaline tablets on the internet now - i wonder if they prescribe them over here?  hope you are having a good day and getting lots of rest x


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## marly (Oct 17, 2004)

Rubyroo
Just to answer your questions (I don't want to bombard you with too much info)

Natural FET is where they implant frozen embyos (from our previous iCSI) into the womb during a natural cycle. they monitor blood hormone levels and scan the womb then they transfer the embryos after ovulation.

The cost of ICSI was high because I had immune testing £780, a hysterosalpingogram £650, IVF £3500, ICSI £1000 embryo freezing £500 and drugs made up the rest.

The natural FET shouldn't have been so much but they decided to give me IVIG for my killer cells which I had 3 times at £1000 a go also they repeat immune tests a couple of times £300 a go.

I hope this helps - unfortunately the money thing is a big issue but as you say if it works then it is worth it.

Good luck with your next cycle

love

Marly


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## AF (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi this af, i know just how you must be feeling me and my husband are now going for the 5th
attempt of icsi , and all of my friends are having babies .Just before christmas my sister kindly
told us that she was having number 3, I couldn,t even bring my self to speak to her so i now what your going through.You must stay focused and try and look forward hopefully it will happen
for us soon.Take carexxxxxxxxxxx


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## RubyRoo (Mar 19, 2005)

Hi AF and thanks for your reply.  It's all so hideous isn't it and so hard to believe that we've ended up in this situation. I just never imagined we would. You always just think you can plan your life and do what you want to do and then find out that you can't.  Have to go to dinner tonight for a friends birthday and 2 of the girls are pregnant - great!  What is your history, i hope i'm not being too nosy but just wondering how come you are on your 5th icsi too?  where are you having your treatment?  Anyway at least the sun is shining today so that's something! take care x


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