# Sticky  NOT Telling the child, Chat/Support thread



## bundles

This is a support thread for those people 
who plan NOT TO tell any child conceived that a donor was used

Anyone who is undecided may dip into both the telling and not telling threads 
to get both sides, or ask questions.

Any posts belittling or disputing the choices others have made will be removed.
Harassment will not be tolerated in any form.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN LIGHT OF RECENT ANTAGONISM, THIS THREAD WILL BE *HEAVILY MODERATED AT ALL TIMES,* WITH ANY PRO-TELLING TALK REMOVED. ANYONE WHO RECEIVES UNWANTED PM'S IS ENCOURAGED TO PRESS THE 'REPORT TO ADMIN' BUTTON SO THAT IT CAN BE SORTED OUT​


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## Lilly83

Thanks Bundles 

Happy chatting ladies 

L x


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## Me Myself and I

Perhaps the thread will have turned a new page now..... 

😘


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## itwillhappen2015

Will be looking forward to some great support on here


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## itwillhappen2015

Natalie 1402 - didn't want to read and run. Congratulations firstly!! 

I am no where near the position you are in for decision making - but both DH and I have decided that once it is all done and dusted and we have our baby in our arms we shall destroy any evidence of us ever having DEIVF and get on with our lives as a family. 

Our reasons - i don't want anyone viewing any child as not really ours/mine - we both have lovely families & friends however I don't want my child to come with the tag line - he/ she was from a donor. If no one knows they won't be able to say that. Any other child conceived naturally doesn't have its origins discussed from birth and judgements made?
I just think I know what people can be  like - and why on earth should anyone be privy to our private business? That said - I have pangs of doubt for the child not knowing - but since we are tx-ing abroad the info available is very limited and anonymous. That's just how I feel xxGood luck


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## LuckyE

Natalie - It's a hard one and am still deciding if family will know if I use DE or no one at all. I am not in your situation yet but I think I would just keep it to your parents and brother until you have decided what you want to tell your child.


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## Shoegirl10

Hi
We are in process of DE treatment. My parents know and are 200% behind us and have been on this journey with us since the beginning.
For my parents, DH and myself that child is our baby, my parents grandchild.  My parents made it very clear that any child coming into this family would be their grandchild be it adopted, DE or OE  so having my parents support is more important to me than what anyone else thinks.

It is no one places to judge.

While I understand that there are reasons for telling the child about donor conception the reality is that for me they will never be able to trace the donor so in my situation there is a disadvantage to telling the child
Good luck 
xx


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## bundles

Whilst I think it's true that some children who find 'things' (many different things) out later in life are left with questions, I don't think that's true for all - some people are naturally a glass half empty type (whereas I'm a half-full  ). I'm a great believer that if you bring a child up in a strong & loving home, and to feel secure in it's own body & mind, then they can deal with anything. For years my parents were cagey about how many years they were married around their wedding anniversary. I decided, with my next sister down in tow, to find their wedding certificate. I was probably about 15 at the time. Well surprise surprise, they were married in the August & I came along in the December  and I'm sure at over 7ibs I wasn't 5mths early !! Did I care, no not one hoot. My mum's fault for not saying no ! At least my dad married her & I wasn't given up for adoption, which was probably the norm in the 60's (not that I'm against adoption  but I wouldn't have had my 3 sisters). Sometimes I think that telling a child can make it more of a big deal for them by leaving more questions than answers but who knows. I think it's important to consider all angles & opinions but I just think it's more important to make the decision that's right for you as their parent, and as it's the one you're most comfortable with then you will deal with it the best


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## K jade

thanks Bundles. 
i just feel so angry that Joe Bloggs from down the road can sleep with anyone and have kids with anyone and no one bats an eye lid, 
whereas for some reason i have to constantly live in fear of the SPERM police knocking on my door?!?
where is the sense in that, its such a double standard

xxxxx


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## bundles

K Jade   I say stop watching Jeremy Kyle & Benefits Britain  
xx


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## K jade

hahahaha!
ive actually found those programmes quite inspiational to my situation. 
it was jeremy kyle that made me think "for gods sake, why am i stressing about this sooo much" lol
xxxxxx


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## bundles

I used to watch it as it made me feel normal   but now it just annoys me  
xx


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## liz lemon

Hello everyone!

I'm new here, and on the fence at the moment regarding telling or not telling. I am considering double donation, and in order to allow myself the possibility of either option, I'm wondering about blood groups, and whether there is anyone here who understands that kind of thing! 

As a same sex couple, my partner and I will have to tell about the sperm donation, but we would like to have the option of tell or not tell regarding the egg donation. My blood group is A rh positive. Do I need to ask for a specific blood type? I suppose what I am asking is whether there is a particular blood type that would mean it was obvious that I'm not the biological mother, regardless of the sperm donor's blood type?

I hope I've made some sense!


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## bundles

Hi Liz & welcome  
I am the resident Blood Group Guru   You have made perfect sense   Tbh you could probably use any combination of donors, although due to 'mathematical probability' I would probably avoid two B+ donors as you wouldn't know their absolute type ( we get 2 blood group genes ). Do you know your parent's blood groups ? As then I could work out if you are AA or AO (genotype) - both will be tested/show as Group A (phenotype).
I am in the process of drafting an easy explanation/table for people to follow but just haven't got there yet  
Feel free to ask if you need any help.
xx


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## K jade

hi liz, 

im baffled by this blod type thing. 
it appears that alot say that 'your secret' will come out when it becomes apparant that child doesnt share mum or dads blood type. ?!?!
but at no point in my life have i ever had access to my parents blood type. 
nor would i have reason to. 
can anyone shed any light? xxxx


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## bundles

Hun, I will update as soon as I have this drafted   I know my dad's as we both were blood donors & my mum knows hers as she's had children !! I'm just a sad individual who loves genetics so I worked out everyone's blood groups - phenotype & genotype. I remember, as a teenager, finding it really funny that my mum is BO   she wasn't so impressed  
xx


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## liz lemon

Yey, Bundles! I for one am glad you are into all of this! That's good news that any combination, more or less, could be used. The known donor I am considering using is O Rh positive, so that is down on the clinic's records. I can't change that now, as it's a country where they don't 'officially' treat single women. I've listed my preferences on the double donor application form, and I said that blood type was not important. Now though, I think I would like the option of not telling, because who knows how I will feel later on.

Basically, I woke up this morning feeling that it might be more of a burden than a gift of honesty, to tell our child that he or she was created by two anonymous donors, neither of whom can be traced. When I was thinking of using my friend as a known donor, I comforted myself with the knowledge that at least the child could trace one half of their genetic heritage, but if I go double donor embryo, it removes that option. However, the logistics of getting him overseas to do his bit is becoming a bit tricky.

So, to summarise my ramblings, from what you've said, at the very worst I could have a child who was very unlikely to have a particular blood group, rather than it be an impossibility?

Oh I forgot to add; I have no idea what my parents blood types are. Trying to think of a way to ask that whilst appearing nonchalant!

Thanks so much for your help Bundles


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## bundles

Ok ladies, as you are so demanding  I have drafted out the info you need :

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=333077.0

I suggest you make yourself a cup of something nice, grab a couple of digestives & have a read 

xx


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## evan80

I am so happy i found this thread. I conceived with donor sperm following dh's noa diagnosis. Due to very high fsh and lh our only options were either adoption or ivf with donor sperm. Dh was very depressed and did not want to go for either of the two options but was also reluctant about living a life without children. So he finally agreed to go for counselling with me and after a few sessions he agreed to go for ivf with donor sperm on condition that we do not tell anyone. We conceived our 3 month old boy following my first FET.

Dh and our son have bonded so well but people just make it so difficult with their comments. Dh's aunt and mum are constantly saying that it is so difficult to determine who our son takes after. They say the same comment everytime they see us. I am in agreement with the idea of not telling anyone but my biggest fear is that it might come out. I keep thinking that if God forbids our son gets sick and needs a transplant the tests would show that dh is not his biological father. We chose a donor who has the same blood group as dh but I keep thinking that doctors would still be able to tell. Unfortunately all threads that I found are all in favour of telling the truth to the children and I felt likewe are really bad parents for not wanting to share the info with our child regarding this whole donor thing.


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## bundles

Hi Evan  
Congratulations on your DS   How silly of your MIL & her sister (I assume). I would be telling them that he takes after your distant cousin Bobby or the like   It is a fact that features often skip a generation so there can often be only slight resemblances to some parents anyway. 
To be honest, in the event of a transplant, the doctors would absolutely know your DH wasn't a biological match. Even the most basic HLA tissue typing would show that up, however, by telling them anyway, they are bound by patient confidentiality. It is never a given that parents could donate to their child. We stored cord blood & stem cells when our DD was born, for a similar scenario.  
You are not bad parents to want to keep it secret, I think it is often a braver thing to do  
xx


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## evan80

Thanks bundles. I work with medical students which is why I wouldn't want anyone at the hospital to know cos I know most doctors there. As you rightly point out they are bound by patient confidentiality protocol and they cannot tell other people but they might tell our child.

I have no doubts that we have done the right thing of going for treatment using a donor cos our son has made us so much happier and we are so grateful for having him. But every single website I found is pro-telling and it makes me feel guilty for having opted not to tell sometimes. Although in our case I know this is the wisest decision.


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## LuckyE

evan80 - congratulations on your DS.

Evan you have definitely made the right decision...

However, I have to confess, I am guilty of what your mum and sister do!  .  My sister has 4 children. the first three look like mum or dad or both. The last one - neither. She is VERY different. I have commented on that in my time - " I don't know who she looks like," I say... but probably not as often as what it sounds like your mum and sister do. I think it's a natural instinct to want to place people.  Put them in boxes that fit. People search for order. I'm sure you know they don't mean anything by it and they believe that he's your DHs a 100%. Why woudln't they?

I wonder if there is a way for you guys to be able to let it not bother you - a little bit more counselling, NLP maybe cos, sadly,  those comments will go on forever and you need to let them bounce off your back.


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## bundles

Evan I have a medical background and if your DH were ever tested for compatibility your son could be told that he wasn't a match but they would be bound by your husbands confidentiality to not disclose why. Often one parent is more of a match than the other, and in this case it would be you. Your DS wouldn't be given the details so please don't worry yourself over that. A bit poo that you work in the hospital though   although, honestly, it may never come to it  

xx


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## MadameCissy

Hi,

I don't really know if our story belongs in this thread but reading through some of the comments, I feel like I do fit in.

Our son will obviously realise that he was conceived with donor sperm as we are a same sex couple so there's no question there about telling or not telling but we made the very conscious decision to use an anonymous donor from a Danish sperm bank which means that our son cannot trace/contact the donor when he turns 18. I don't know of any other couples (gay or straight), or single ladies, who have chosen this option, and I find that a lot of people frown upon our decision because they feel we are depriving him of something. It leaves me unable to talk and I feel quite judged so I kind of turned to this thread. I hope people don't mind? 

Our choice was heavily influenced by the feeling that this is our family, and that we hope to raise a child aware enough of himself that he doesn't feel like a complete person unless he traces the sperm donor that helped create him. To us, the sperm donor was a means to an end, helping our dream come true. Nothing more. Also, more selfishly, I think we were both a little afraid that it would change our relationship with him in the future if he were to make contact. Obviously we can't predict what our son will think and feel when he grows older and how he may feel about this decision but we have made this choice and there isn't anything we'd do different if we were to be in the same position again. 

I feel like sometimes I am forced to lie because everyone is so pro-telling and pro-non anonymous donors.


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## K jade

MC I feel exactly the same. We will go for annonymous too.
Reason being I fail to see where the donor will fit into my childs life at 18, once me and my partner have loved and nurtured them all their lives. I mean what exactly is supposed to happen once my baby reaches 18? They go and find them... Strike up a relationship. .  .. Go for coffee... Exactly what will be the context of this relationship. .  
And where do we draw the Line? Do we invite this man over  for diner? And what if the relationship turns sour. ? 
The conclusion I have come to is exactly how beneficial is such relationship going to be to MY child. 
Probably none. 
Xxx


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## Love Angel

Hi ladies and any men reading

A gynaecologist kindly told me one time that studies had been done which showed that quite a large percentage of the population in the UK, if they were tested, would find that they are not from the lineage that they think they are from.  He said that during the war, many women got pregnant by American soldiers and managed to pass the baby off as their husband's, and also that oftentimes neighbours would just take in another's kid and raise them as their own - those kids went on to have babies eventually and the details were lost in midst of time.  He was trying to drum into me that it doesn't really matter what your lineage is - that that matters is how much you have been loved. 

Also, my friend who's real father left home when he was a toddler, has a fleeting memory of a man who may have been his father, and says he honestly never ever thinks about or yearns for knowledge of his biological father.  He was the one who told me to stop getting hung up on and presuming that the child will yearn for knowledge. 

I am struggling with some of the same concerns myself as I am just now turning to the idea of dd or em adoption and I wish there was an alternative to paying approx 7k per time for open id embies & cycle here in the UK, as opposed to approx 2k and closed-id in East Europe - especially after a journey, like most of us, which had drained the coffers for so long.

But the gynaecologist has a point!

Love


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## Me Myself and I

Madame Cissy- think there are more of us than we realise. It just being that the tell brigade shout louder and assume they have some higher moral ground.


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## MadameCissy

K jade - you've described my feelings exactly. I'd wonder about the nature of the relationship too after we'd raised and loved him for all these years. I also watched a documentary about sperm donors from Denmark the other day and even those who were non-anonymous said that if a donor conceived child made contact. they wouldn't be too interested in pursuing any kind of relationship anyway. For me that only reaffirmed our decision to use an anonymous donor. 

Me Myself and I, I think you're right. I also recognise you from another thread


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## LuckyE

Madamecissy - my friend has raised her twin boys with two mums. They are 13 now. No desire to find out about their sperm donor - she knows the basics of who he is but thati's it. She said they never ask questions. They are lovely well-rounded kids. So Happy! And have 2 mums. That's it. I think that's the key. Happiness or love as love angel was saying. They might look when they are older but so far they have never felt deprived.  

Don't get me wrong, I hear and know of kids looking when they're older but I am starting to belive it's because in some way they are unhappy in their lives.


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## Blondie71

Madamcissy you're def not alone I've used an anon donor too and as I'm single it will be obvious, I honestly am not going to make him a big issue in their minds or put him up there on a pedestal for them with anything more than the bare facts, after all he could be a terrible person and a massive disappointment for them He is primarily just a donor to me and def not "dad", I doubt my boys will ever know who he is tbh unless laws change drastically and I'm hoping their lives will be so full of love that they won't dwell on it too much. I agree with lucky that the people who go crazy looking for birth parents are usually those who are lacking something in their lives and desperate to fix that x


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## MadameCissy

Thank you for your comments, ladies. It really does reaffirm that we made a decision that truly felt right for us. we know the minimal basics about our donor (weight, height, eye colour, hair, profession, blood type) but he's nothing more than a number to us.


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## Shoegirl10




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## evan80

Madamecissy great to see you here. Like you I am convinced that we have made the right decision about not telling the child that he was conceived through a donor. I am so thankful for this thread because I had so many doubts about the whole issue.

Our son means the world to us and I am so glad that dh has bonded so well with him and was relieved to hear him say that he does not regret the decision. As people have said on this board once we give our child all the love that he needs he will not feel the need to go looking for the donor. I am very grateful for the donor's act of selflessness because we would never have been able to become parents. What I don't agree with is the fact that when treatment is successful our clinic has the policy of informing the donor that treatment has been successful and they also inform him of the gender of the child. But I guess it is their policy and we just have to accept it.


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## MadameCissy

Evan, good to see you here too. When we conceived, we had to inform the sperm bank that we'd gotten pregnant. But it's for their own records, not for the donor to know. It's just registered as pregnancy conceived through that particular donor.  I've been thinking about it all even more since joining this thread and the more I do, the more convinced and secure I feel.   I also just noticed our boys are only 10 days apart.


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## liz lemon

Hello everyone

Even though I know ultimately we will have to make our own decision, I wonder if any of you can offer your thoughts on what you would choose if you were in my shoes. Here's my situation: I am in a same-sex relationship, and I need to use donor eggs. We have a choice between a totally anonymous sperm donor (we'd do embryo donation in this case), or having a male friend donate the sperm. There are no issues regarding trusting him, etc. He is genuinely happy to have as little or as much involvement as we/the child wishes, at whatever time in our lives. We have decided (for the time being; a bit of chopping and changing sometimes!) not to tell the child that we used an egg donor, as it will be impossible for them to find out any information anyway, so it would potentially be more stressful to know but never be able to identify the donor than not know at all. Which option would you choose for the sperm donation, and why? I'm very conflicted, trying to work out what is best for the child, rather that what might suit me! Thoughts from anyone gratefully received!


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## CrazyHorse

Hi, liz lemon (love your name, BTW!), if it were me I would go for the anonymous sperm donor. Not because you don't or shouldn't trust your friend, but because it's very hard for people to accurately predict in advance their emotions about a situation they've never been in before. It's one thing to be a sperm donor and know (or suspect) that you have a hypothetical offspring that you've never seen, and quite another to know that your friends' child, whom you have seen in person multiple times, is biologically yours. No matter how well prepared you and your friend believe you all are, he may find himself in the future having feelings he would never predict now. If it were me, I would opt for the scenario with the least risk of possible drama, which is definitely the anonymous donor.

Part of the reason I say this is that I am friends with a hetero couple in which, about 20 years ago, the male partner considered donating sperm to a lesbian couple who are mutual friends. Ultimately, it didn't happen due to one of the members of the same-sex couple changing her mind about moving forward with children at that time; years later, after the hetero couple had children of their own, the wife told me she was very glad in retrospect that her DH hadn't donated the sperm, as she would have felt really strange about having one of his bio children raised by someone else as an unacknowledged half-sibling to her children, even though the child would have good and loving parents. So it can be weird not only for the known donor, but for the donor's partner as well.

Anyway, just my $0.02. I'm sure it will work out fine whatever you choose.


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## liz lemon

Thanks CrazyHorse; yours is a bit good too!

And thanks for the input. I'm one of those people who need to talk things through and hear what others think, and of course I can't do this in real life, because if we're not telling, that means not telling anyone at all. Quite the challenge for a natural over-sharer!

The points you make are really important, and i'll add them to my ever-increasing list of pros and cons. If we used our friend, we would have to go with the flow and be open about him being the donor, and whilst I know that he would be okay with the child having a relationship with him if he/she wanted, but he is single at the moment and this could change if he met someone who didn't want him to have contact etc. All worst case scenarios, and I think he is made of sterner stuff than that, but you never know. Also, although I would be okay with the donor having a role, I would worry about my wife feeling ousted. So much to think about.

If I was in a heterosexual relationship, I think I'd find it all much more clear-cut, because not telling the child that both egg and sperm donors were used doesn't leave the obvious void of no father present. What a palaver. I do wish I wasn't one of life's ruminating types!


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## MadameCissy

Liz lemon, I am also in a same sex relationship and when we first started discussing the subject of children, we also considered the option of using a friend as our sperm donor. We decided against it eventually because we were worried about the donor changing his mind and wanting involvment in the child's life, which was something we did not want at all. It is impossible to see into then future and your donor may be just find, but a same sex couple I know who used a known donor is now experiencing their donor wanting more contact, even though they had agreed not to. 

We used anonymous donor sperm because we wanted to avoid all of that and because we don't see how a known donor would fit into our lives as a family. To us, and I speak for us as a couple alone, the donor was merely a means to an end. We are our son's parents.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## bombsh3ll

Hi liz lemon,

I agree with the others- in your position I would go for the embryo adoption. That way you get total control and anonymity - however well intentioned your friend is, it has the potential to cause complications further down the line.

Embryo adoption also has more practical advantages too, being several thousand pounds cheaper than fresh DEIVF. You know the embryos already exist and their number and quality, no worries about no eggs/no fertilisation etc as you've skipped that bit.

Also the logistics of using a known sperm donor for DEIVF in the UK would be a nightmare - tons of mandatory counselling, long wait for eggs & non-anonymous ED. If you went abroad for treatment, you would have to either fly the donor out too or ship his frozen sperm out of the UK - which is a legal minefield as well.

Good luck whatever you decide,

B xxx


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## liz lemon

Thanks MadameCissy and bombsh3ll, I really appreciate the input. We are going to use an overseas clinic anyway, because it's so much cheaper but bombsh3ll, you are so right about using a friend as donor in the UK being a huge hassle, as in addition to everything you've pointed out, his sperm would have to be frozen for 6 months before we could get started, all of which ruled out UK clinics very early on. 

Regarding any change of mind regarding involvement of the donor friend in our child's life, I'm not (yet) as worried about that as the potential for my child to be disappointed or worse if she/he did want to be in contact and the donor didn't. At least the child is protected from potential rejection with the anon donor route.


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## Blondie71

Liz I also nearly went the KD route THANK GOD I didn't as I thought I knew him inside out but he changed completely when it came close to treatment, making all kinds of crazy demands to suit him and only him, this competely selfless guy turned into the biggest control-freak and tried to dictate everything even though he wasn't contributing a penny, when I changed to an anon donor he insulted me very visciously, our 20 year friendship ended very abruptly but needless to say I'm glad I saw him for what he is as I don't need anybody that unhinged in my life. 

Anon is so much better imo x


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## liz lemon

Blondie71, that must have been such a shock! We are lucky (and very unlucky) in that I have been pregnant via home insemination with our donor, but it ended very badly with a late miscarriage. What it did show us, was how he reacted to the pregnancy news, when he said "I'm so pleased for you both" (no mention of him) and it was me who said that I wanted to keep track of his whereabouts in case our child wanted contact.

I'm convinced on the not telling with the egg part, but I'm still conflicted regarding the sperm part. For me, naiive as it may sound, control isn't a concern, but I can't decide which is the lesser of two possible worst case scenarios for the child; never being able to trace his/her anonymous donor, or the possibility of not having the relationship he/she wants with the known donor.

When I fall on the embryo donation side, I think it's because it suits *me*, e.g it's cheaper, involves fewer drugs, no waiting list, more choice, embryo can be tested, etc etc. And unlike a heterosexual couple, I will have to tell something on the sperm side, as it clearly didn't come from my wife.

Thank-you SO much, everyone, for weighing in with your thoughts. I know it's a very contentious issue, and I am already in the not telling camp for the egg; it's just the sperm side I keep too-ing and fro-ing on. Thanks for being so patient. It must be a bit trying, talking with someone who is undecided when you have already made your decision, and for good reasons


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## bundles

Liz this is a place for discussion, so you are in the right place   I do personally wonder why it is so important for some children to find their recent 'ancestral roots' I kind of just don't get it. As a scientist myself I would be interested in a 'way back' what part of the world sort of way but with DS I think it comes down to someone you can potentially meet or someone you can't - which seems a whole different kettle of fish. Tbh I'm a bit tired, so may not be making much sense  
Good luck with your decision, it is, indeed a tough one  
xx


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## liz lemon

Thanks Bundles! As an artsy-fartsy type, I very much appreciate the input of a scientist; especially the analytical skills!


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## Blondie71

There is no right or wrong way in any of this and we all do what is right for our own family situations. I hadn't realised you had such a late loss very sorry to read that, maybe a known donor can work for you if he's already proven himself under such stressful conditions and it sounds like you are more comfortable with a KD so go with your heart and initial instincts


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## firefly9373

Hi Ladies

We too have decided on the not telling - but sometimes it can test your limits  
I had to sit and listen to my MIL - whom I have to say is a fantastic grandmother and someone who has been a huge help to me over the months, tell a story about a forty something year old woman who was on TV the other morning having had double donor treatment and how beautiful her son was but how can she possibly sit there and think that's her son? 
After the initial stab to the heart and the biting of the tongue, I subtly explained the error of her ways   and then sat there thinking 'if only you knew!'  
This only confirms for me that our decision was right for us although I guess if she'd have known from day one that I had DE then I know she wouldn't have said this - but would she still think it?


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## bundles

Oh Firefly   i put it down to the ignorance of the elderly   I used to do voluntary work with elderly people and was constantly amazed at some of the things they said   especially in this now PC world! As you say, at least she has no idea  
Xx


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## bombsh3ll

Hi firefly9373,

You could look at your MIL's comment another way - it just shows how even close family members have no inkling about the type of treatment you had if you choose to keep this confidential. 

B xxx


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## firefly9373

I completely agree Bundles, they are prone to come away with some classic comments!
Thanks too Bomsh3ll, I'm still trying to adjust to 'the secret' but it does show that we've been successful so far   
I'm totally over it now but it did catch me off guard at the time - fierce mama hormones kicking in I guess  
Thanks again ladies


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## Apple Orchard

Thank you for setting up the 'new' not telling support thread! I haven't posted lately because it didn't feel safe. 

I have a dilemma  - we have had our little baby and now that we have I am definitely in the not telling camp. It is so much the best thing for us all - especially our baby. 

My dilemma is this - we had our treatment in the UK because at the time, we thought we would tell. We do not want his birth registered with the HFEA because if it is, then it makes it much harder to keep it a secret. We don't live in the UK. Is there any way to avoid registering? We have not told the clinic about the birth. I do feel bad about that because the person was so supportive, and then there is the donor. I feel bad about that too because she did the most amazing thing. But for our family and our baby, we need to not have it disclosed. What can we do? Is it a legal requirement to register the birth? We really, really do not want to. How I wish we'd gone abroad, but then we would not have our amazing baby. 

Thank you for reading. Any help would be so much appreciated. 

AO


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## bundles

Hi Apple  congratulations on your little one  Tbh I have no idea what your options are. If none of the other ladies can help it might be worth posting in our Ask a Lawyer section:

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=216.0

Good luck Hun 
xx


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## Apple Orchard

Thank you Bundles, that's a good idea. If no one else knows, I'll ask the lawyer. 

Is there anyone in here who did treatment in the UK, registered with the HFEA and is not telling?

Thank you again. 

AO


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## Apple Orchard

Hello again,

I just wondering if there's anyone who can help with my dilemma? 

Thank you in advance 

AO


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## K jade

hi apple orchard, 
regarding your dilema, I am not sure about how the Hfea keep a register. I do beleive they try to keep tabs on people who use donors (totally wrong in my opinion) but im not sure really how they go about this. 

however if you do not plan on telling your child then there is now way they would know they were donor conceived. 
the term 'donor conceived' is not really commonly known amongst people who havent been through severe infertility. ask the adverage Joe public and they have no idea what IVF involves let alone the use of donor gametes. 

so therefore your child getting some kind of sixth sense they are from a donor and contacting Hfea to ask is pretty unlikley. more unlikley by given the fact you dont live in the UK.

hope that helps. 
xxxx


----------



## Moragob

Hi Apple Orchard

I don't know the answer to your question but could you email HFEA anonymously and ask them this question?  I have just had a quick look at the HFEA website and there is an email contact form.  If it was me I think I would set up a new hotmail or google email account and using an alias ask them in a general way without disclosing your situation.  Along the lines of we are considering fertility treatment with DE or DS and want to understand the implications etc etc and then ask if it is a legal requirement to register with them and if so what consequences there may be if you don't.  I don't imagine they can come after you in any way and if the clinic are unaware of the birth then there's no way of knowing whether the pregnancy resulted in a live birth.

I bet there are plenty of people who don't tell their clinic and/or HFEA.  I had my daughter through a clinic in Spain so have no knowledge of HFEA but I do know that when I asked my clinic about success rates for live births they said they couldn't tell me because a large number of people never let them know the outcome of the pregnancy.  Why would it be any different here?

Hope that helps
Morag
xx


----------



## Lilly83

Hello ladies 

Just letting you know I met with a rep from Care Fertilitys PR and Marketing dept yesterday. It was purely as a patient not as a moderator on here, I did talk in depth about UK clinics more often than not presuming patients will chose to tell and I said I felt there wasn't enough support available for those that won't tell and we discussed the DCN network and their views and the impact clinics pushing DCN can have on 'non tellers' 

I know one persons views won't change much but I think its good to have had chance to discuss with them 

L xx


----------



## bombsh3ll

I'm glad you raised this Lilly83. 

Realistically though for people who know from the off they won't disclose, treatment outside the UK is the most effective way to ensure no UK record exists, anywhere, of the type of treatment you've had. 

For those needing donor sperm, importing frozen DS for home AI is also an option.

Apple, if the UK clinic treating you are not aware of the birth as you have left the country, then I would simply not have any further contact with them. They cannot submit details of your baby's birth to the HFEA if they don't know them eg name, date and place of birth. I'd say you have nothing to worry about.

Patsy68, I think your position is trickier having already disclosed - information in medical records is very difficult to retract - however you may have a case for removing this information from your children's records on the grounds that it has the potential to cause psychological harm to them if they discovered they were donor conceived this way.

For anyone looking to this option in the future, there are no medical advantages to disclosing the use of donor gametes. For example if maternal age is an issue, an OE pregnancy in an older lady carries more risks than a DE one, so disclosing will not result in any greater monitoring etc. Yes it may (favourably) affect results of screening tests for Down's risk, but no test other than amnio/CVS can conclusively diagnose chromosomal abnormalities so again for most people this isn't a concern.

Regarding allergies an individual is either allergic to something or they are not, and heredity is just one of a wide range of factors, so it isn't possible to assume own-gamete children will share parental allergies or that a child of donor conception will automatically be free from allergies affecting their parent/s.

B xxx


----------



## evan80

Apple I don't live in the uk but had treatment in the uk. My son was conceived through DS and we are also in the not telling camp. What I don't understand is why you are concerned to register your baby's birth with hfea. I thought that they cannot do anything or reveal anything to the child unless the child contacts them.

I felt guilty about not telling the clinic about the birth of my child so eventually I decided to inform them especially since I plan to cycle again with them as I still have 4 embryos frozen. I don't live in the uk and sometimes I worry that maybe there could be a change in uk law whereby it would make it possible for the donor to contact us. That would be so devastating since dh only agreed to use ds on condition that we never tell the child and that we never have contact with the donor.
I was totally against the clinic telling the donor about the birth of the child but unfortunately it was their policy and we were informed of it before we had treatment.


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## Apple Orchard

As far as I'm aware the HFEA tell the donor about the birth. For us, the fewer people who know, the better. We just don't want the birth registered anywhere. It makes not telling easier and simpler. I don't want complications years down the line. Who knows how rules and regulations might change. 

Good luck for your next cycle. 

AO


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## evan80

Well in our case it's the clinic that willbe telling the donor about the birth. We signed a contract with the clinic before having treatment agreeing to all terms and regulations about use of ds. So if the law had to change surely it could not be applicable in our case given the fact that when we signed the contract the terms were that only the child had the option to contact the donor once he turns 18. Well I hope that's the case cos I would totaly freak out if it wasn't. The only two people in my country who know that we used a donor are our endocrinologist and my gynaecologist. There was no point in lying to them cos they knew we stood no chance of dh having a biological child after they saw his test results. Otherwise we did not tell anyone not even our parents.


----------



## Blondie71

Evan I could be wrong but I really doubt a donor would ever be given your details, the onus would be on the resulting child/ren to initiate contact and as you're not telling I doubt it's something to panic over.


----------



## Val74

Hi I've been reading this thread as am currently in the position of considering donor eggs and really not sure where I fit with the telling/not telling.  Morally I feel that if I did then I ought to be honest but emotionally I wouldn't actually want to tell a soul, apart from my husband of course and if I could I would even avoid telling him!  Just read the last few comments and I know things change all the time and different clinics have different protocols but my friend and his wife were double donors and the only info that they received was that both of their recipients had a positive pregnancy, nothing else, not when they cycled, where they are from or even the sex of the child.  Hope that helps a little bit as it sounds like the worry is awful.  Val xx


----------



## weffwild

We are starting treatment fairly soon (hopefully) we have our counselling for donor sperm next week and onwards from there really. We have discussed and don't want to tell anyone or the child, although I'm aware that now this information is available from 16+, is this at a choice to the parents? Or is somehow passed to the child? Not sure how stupid this question is?


----------



## weffwild

We're starting our journey next week (scared but excited). We've had all bloods and scans done so just awaiting counselling and to see the donor team and then hopefully all systems go! We've discussed between us as we both agree on the basis of receiving donor sperm that we wouldn't want to tell our child / children. We both feel that as their parents they are loved and if we could have we would have biologically made them so why do they need to know any different? Although this is such a controversial subject this is just how we feel and at in a way what you don't knew can't hurt you, we have also not told any family or friends, all they know is that we will have IUI. Do any of you know how the process is in terms of when the child is 16/18, can they go completely unknowing their whole life or is there a possible way of them being contacted and if so how would they be? This is the only aspect that's worrying me and I think my partner worries more due to the baby not being biologically his but obviously will be mine, at the end of the day I feel the baby will be ours and no one has the right to know or question that if that's what we want


----------



## bundles

Hi Weffwild  
I had my treatment in Spain where donation is anonymous but as I understand it,  here in the UK if donor conceived children are told they are dc, at 16 they can apply for limited information or at 18 they can be given their donor's last recorded contact details. Obviously if they are never told then they may never think to ask.
As Ellaa says, do be mindful of who does your counseling. It's definitely worth doing some research beforehand and go prepared with questions. 
Good luck 
Xx


----------



## weffwild

Thanks Bundles and Ellaa, we've researched quite a bit and don't think we will change our minds either at any point, as we had both done this independently and I one day said to my partner what would you want to do and we both completely had the same idea (handy that we agree). We're having counselling via our treatment clinic so not sure how bias they'll be for one side more than the other but we're both pretty set so hopefully they'll be no 'convincing'. We were planning on DS via UK within the clinic but if the child never asked then they wouldn't know? Is there a way they could find out?


----------



## Lilly83

I agree regarding the counselling, I had mine through my clinic and it was very 'pro telling' Infact they never even really asked me they just used a lot of literature on how to tell the child and pushed several sites and resources that are very pro telling too 

I did feed that back to my clinic afterwards how I think it was very one sided 

L x


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## K jade

What i am confused about is exactly HOW the HFEA get hold of your childs details ...does anyone know?
Unless the parents send the childs BC or fill out a form with all your childs details on and send it to them, how do they add your child to their register??
I think , unless I am wrong, the clinic informs HFEA on a successful pregnancy , but given the amount of IVF pregnancy's which end in M/C , surely this isn't significant info to HFEA
Surely its a live birth they would want to know about

We are still undecided about telling or not. But what if I decide I don't want MY Childs info stored on a mass database , what rights do we have to opt out? It upsets me as the general population aren't subject to this kind of record keeping and surveillance, why shud we be?


----------



## weffwild

I will ask next week at our appointment Kjade and get back to you on this post, exactly the same thing I've been wondering!


----------



## bombsh3ll

I also felt much more secure going abroad for anon DE. Once home the origin of the eggs used in that cycle wasn't on any UK record, ever.

It only takes one reference to donor gametes in your maternity or other medical notes to start a cascade of disclosure that you have no control over & that could come back to haunt you years down the line.

My understanding is the HFEA donor database only concerns IVF/ICSI pregnancies, & if I were in the situation of those on here where the female partner has no issues but donor sperm is needed I would do home AI with DS imported from Cryos. 

Not only is this completely private but MUCH cheaper & doesn't put you through all the health risks of IVF.

Best wishes,

B xxx


----------



## Apple Orchard

We did DE in the UK and we have not informed our clinic of the birth. They know I got pregnant but I stopped contact at around 15 weeks. They have no idea when or what we had. We were sent a form to fill in for the hfea and I am not going to fill it in. The only worry is have is that the clinic have our details. But if we don't tell, our child wouldn't know to look. They will know they are IVF though. So hopefully de would never occur to her/him. Hope that helps.


----------



## Apple Orchard

I can't remember when they sent the form. It was via email. It just asked details about the birth, sex, date etc. they have not followed it up ,,, yet. I don't think they ever took the name of my gp. It was never put in my notes. You don't have to tell your gp. You don't have to tell anyone. 
I wonder how long the clinic will keep the records for?


----------



## weffwild

Apple orchard this is a very good point, if they don't get the form surely they won't know? Made me have quite a few questions ready for next week at the counselling and definitely to discuss with my DH when he returns from his trip. My worry would be in your circumstance if you were to want siblings? How would you go about it?


----------



## K jade

Thanks apple orchard, this is all very informative
Funnily enough I called HFEA and their response was "don't worry the clinic take care of it"
Well unless the clinic are telepathic I really don't see how confident they can be about that statement


----------



## Apple Orchard

Clearly that system doesn't work!! They don't know about us and they never will.


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## WolfyOne

I hope you don't mind me posting and don't see it as gate crashing, as my DH and I are planning on telling our children, but my post isn't about whether on not the child is told.

We are all very appreciative of our donors. Without them we would not have a chance at pregnancy / be pregnant / have children. However, by not telling the clinic/hfea seems to me to go against the rights of the donor. If they specify a family limit, which they have every right to do, by not telling the clinic/hfea once a child is born means that the baby would not be counted against their family limit. They could therefore end up with pregnancies against many more families than they wanted. I just hate to think of the people benefiting from their donation going against the rights of the people that are helping us  

Again, I hope I won't be shot down, I just wanted to put the rights of the donor out there...


----------



## bundles

Wolfy you have a very valid point, and I'm sure that whilst the ladies are seeking information, you won't be shot down    I'm really not sure what the answer is & if there were an extra few hours in the day at the moment, I would definitely be doing a lot of research. I did actually start looking things up at around 3am today but on a tablet it's not that great   
Personally, I would be contacting HFEA anonymously to ask how their tracing policy works. Although having just this minute read through a fair bit of their website info, it mainly explains storage of donor info rather than collection of donor conceived childrens' info. In which case, if you phone a clinic directly (anonymously) to ask how they collect DC childrens details, it may prove more helpful  

xx


----------



## Apple Orchard

I can see what you're saying and we have already given it a lot of thought. If there was a way of telling the donor without telling the hfea or clinic, I would. The donor is an amazing person and we will be forever grateful to her. Again, if I could tell her that, I would. I'd love to be able to thank her for what she did.


----------



## weffwild

This has so brought to life how hard the whole telling/ not telling situation is. I thought when we'd made the decision to not tell them that would be that and it would all be in our hands but now it seems so complex, like is there a way the child can find out, how would they find out and even if the clinic was informed of a birth then how 16years down the line would they even have contacts for you? 

I find the idea of a child we've made and love having an interest in contact a donor/ siblings created by the donor. Although I'm so appreciative of all that donors do (and I hope to donate my eggs after having my own children) I just don't want that contact to happen. Definitely seriously considering going outside the UK now for DS. Are the laws very different in Europe? And has anyone got suggestions how to go about getting it from Europe?


----------



## Blondie71

Another point is by going abroad you do minimise drastically the chances of your child potentially hooking up with siblings in the future and that is a very real concern if some of the women who used your donor and are living in close proximity to you are NOT disclosing birth info to the clinic, that's just one of the things that is potentially explosive in the future x


----------



## betty21

Hi - im new to this thread - i  went to spain for DE in 2013 and last year gave birth to a beautiful healthy baby girl - my husband is spanish and im british (fair skinned) whilst i was pregnant i told midwife and my doctor that the baby was conceived via donor egg and all this was put in my notes. The clinic in spain told us to inform our doctor as we wouldnt require alot of the tests as i was 46 and the donor was 20. We dont intend on telling our daughter ever if we can help it (just our choice) she looks just like her dad facially and my hair colouring with typical olive skin - so alls good. My problem is will our daughter ever find this out - as i know when my mums sister died she had got all her doctors records - and i would hate it if our daughter found out years later when we are no longer alive to explain. Is there a way of getting all this information removed from medical records?

So anyway i am now on my 2WW and going for round 2 - using the same donor as before - IF this as worked (not convinced at the moment) do i even tell the doctor and therefore go through un necessary tests just to safe guard ourselves in the future?


----------



## Moragob

Betty, I'm not sure you can get information taken off your records but someone else hopefully will.  But I am sure that you can just decline the tests.  I am 12 wks with my 2nd DE pregnancy and at my booking appointment was asked whether or not I wanted the tests.  My midwife said to think about what we would do if the tests were positive and if we wouldn't terminate then maybe it's not worth having the screening done.  She looked at not testing as a positive option and certainly not in terms of whether they were my eggs or not and I am 48.  I guess I am just trying to say there are all sorts of reasons for declining  things without having to tell.

Although I have told I have not had any contact with DCN as I don't like the pushing to tell and we made a very conscious decision to use an anonymous donor.  I strongly feel my business is my business and also feel that the UK info out there is skewed towards telling and not allowing anonymity which is just plain wrong.  We need balanced support and literature not one sided pressurising.  My decision to tell was taken out of my hands as my DH told family before we had finished the discussion.  I admire those of you who have not succumbed to pressure.

Morag


----------



## Me Myself and I

I am glad that someone else also thought the same re the post that has disappeared and claiming to be a dc child.
Though it may have been well intentioned it felt to me like an emotionally blackmailing attempt post.
I have decided not to tell. Who knows maybe this will change but right now in current circumstances this is where I am at!


----------



## Lilly83

I have moved the post whilst we look into it 

Thanks for flagging it Ellaa 

L x


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## Lilly83

Can I just respectfully ask that any new posters read the first post on this thread before posting to check if it's the correct area for your post/query 

There are many different areas for donor conception on this board and we do keep a seperate area for 'Tellers' and 'Non tellers' and ask that this is respected, any posts deemed not suitable may be moved/deleted 

L


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## bombsh3ll

I just wanted to respond to the earlier comments on fairness to the donors in confirming a successful birth of a donor conceived child.

I have always personally felt that donation for the right reasons ought to be done with no expectation of anything back other than the fee if relevant. I would feel quite uncomfortable if I thought my donor might be waiting/hoping to one day be reunited with a grown-up child, in whose face they would be looking for their own characteristics. It's not like adoption, it's a gift given freely like releasing a caged bird to fly off into the world, knowing it won't come back & you cannot control where it goes but that you have done a beautiful thing.

I agree that for many reasons it is sensible to have a limit on number of potential genetic offspring per donor, however in the case of egg donation there are generally strict limits on how many donation cycles a woman can undergo for health reasons, & sperm donors can specify a maximum number of patients treated irrespective of conceptions/live births. In the best case, a donor of good quality sperm could treat say a max of 6 people & they may all give birth, whereas a donor with less healthy sperm could treat 6 & no births result. If we were just counting numbers of births, the latter could go on donating & donating, but with no success it wouldn't be ideal in practice to keep using his donations.

Donors do an amazing & wonderful thing for the people they help, & just knowing that you've given someone a chance, & hope, is every bit as valid & worthwhile irrespective of the end result, & the gesture is in no way diminished if it doesn't result in a baby.

B xxx


----------



## Jenbal

Bombsh3ll, I couldn't agree more! 

I have been an egg donor 3 times (2 of my recipients successful) and am now going to Czech Republic for embryo donation as we have been told that myself and DH just are not compatible and will likely never have biological children. 

When I donated my eggs, they became the child of another women, not mine, never mine. I would never want my recipients to feel neglected or saddened by their child seeking their donor and I would happily explain to anyone that wants to listen that I donated, not only because we needed treatment ourselves but because if I could help someone else going through this process then why wouldn't i? People that go through any donor treatment have made an informed decision and will be loving, caring parents. I hope that my recipients are happy, healthy and look at their child and see themselves.

I did this purely for the recipient and am now of the opinion that we (if successful) will not tell our child that they are donor conceived. They will be our child, nobody else's! 

Just my 2 pence worth. Good luck ladies.

Jen xxxxx


----------



## bundles

I think in the grand scheme of things, the occasional recipient not informing of success is probably quite small. Especially if the majority of people are counselled to believe that telling is the norm  

I saw a documentary some time back where the egg donor wanted to find the children from her eggs. She seemed quite adamant it was her right   For me, it is a single cell. Yes it can be joined with a sperm to make a baby but it's not her baby. She didn't grow it, it's not her partner's sperm. If you donated blood you wouldn't want to meet everyone who received it !!!

How lovely Jen  

Xx


----------



## Apple Orchard

What a lovely post Bombsh3ll. And how true! I don't feel so bad now. Thank you for writing it.


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## CrazyHorse

Bundles, I agree with you. I am not impressed with the HFEA's efforts to set itself up as the arbiter of "ethics" in assisted reproduction, either.

Bombshell mentioned the issue of genetic half-siblings from the same donor becoming romantically involved being a bigger issue when using local donors (e.g., egg-sharing at a UK clinic). Whilst she's quite right that using a donor abroad decreases the risk of this, I also think that the hysteria about donor-conceived children reproducing with their "siblings" is totally overblown. Obviously, if there is a recessive genetic disorder, there will be significantly increased risk of the offspring suffering from it, but this already occurs in ethnic communities that historically haven't had a lot of out-marriage (e.g., Tay Sachs among Ashkenazi Jews). The social taboo against incest (which exists for very valid psychological reasons) leads people to wildly overestimate the actual physiological risks associated with occasional inbreeding. Yes, it would be weird to discover that the love of your life is genetically your half-sibling, and some people might have real psychological distress from it. But the idea that the children of such a union would be at generally high risk of disease is false.

Anyway, just my $0.02. I'm currently almost halfway through an OE pregnancy, but at 40 and an AMH of 1.8 I was staring down the barrel of DE and was strongly leaning toward not telling if we went that road -- hence why I keep an eye on this thread. I'm 99% confident we won't be going for a sibling if the current pregnancy works out, but if we do that would of necessity be DE.


----------



## Apple Orchard

CrazyHorse, lovely post too. Never say never!! I too was certain I'd only want one because I was so grateful. Didn't think I could be that lucky twice. But then number one was born and I realised I wanted another. maybe you won't ... But maybe you will!! Good luck with your pregnancy. I hope it goes smoothly.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thanks, Apple Orchard.   Still can hardly believe it!

As always, wishing all you ladies luck with your roads to a completed family.


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## Orchid-1

Hi Ladies, just came across this post.

We are going to do OE but are considering DE for the future. My DH and I don't want it on our records.

I have been very vague about what clinic I am going to privately and any tests they have done. The GP is truely lovely and has let me do simple blood tests through their practice. I feel a little rattled because she is of the opinion the child should be told, if I go the donor route. I've said to _GP_ we would not consider DE.

We feel really strongly that the decision should be ours mine and DH's. Our blood types will be the same.

What are the tests they ask the mother and child to do, if I do get pregnant?? What are the tests I need to refuse.
I will do the harmony test privately.

Any helpful advice would be welcome. 

All the best to you all out there. x


----------



## betty21

Well i just got my BFP - i  feel truly blessed - we used the same donor as before (in spain) and all going well will have a beautiful sibling for our little girl. Last time round i did inform doctor surgery what we had done and now wondering what to do this time as dont want it all over my notes. I will  do the Harmony test to rule out any problems  at 10weeks. We have not told anyone in the family that we used DE in our last pregnancy and wont again. Just hope our little bean hangs on in there x


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## CrazyHorse

Orchid-1 said:


> Our blood types will be the same.
> 
> What are the tests they ask the mother and child to do, if I do get pregnant?? What are the tests I need to refuse.


If you have blood type matching with your donor (or matching such that your child's blood type will be one that you and your partner could have produced naturally), there are no tests you need to decline in order to keep DE out of your records. What you need to be aware of is that the screening tests offered currently on NHS for Down's and other trisomies calculate your pregnancy's risk using a formula that includes the age of the genetic mother at the time of conception. If they make the calculation using your age, you will get a higher risk result than the actual risk for your pregnancy. This isn't a problem, you just need to be aware that your actual risk is less than whatever result you get from the test. You can also do the Harmony test privately, as those results are based on chromosomal analysis and aren't significantly affected by maternal age. The Harmony test will not provide any information about whether you and your baby are genetically related. Or you can decline the screenings for the trisomies altogether.

HTH!


----------



## Orchid-1

Thank you Crazyhorse. That puts my mind at rest.

Just one more question - how accurate are the Harmony tests for Downs? - Can it specifically say for sure the baby has Downs from the chromosomal information or is just estimates based on probabilities?


----------



## CrazyHorse

The Harmony test is vastly more accurate than the older non-invasive screening tests, but is not 100% definitive. Something like 1-2% of women will not have enough fetal DNA in their bloodstream for the test to return a result. False positives (i.e., the test saying the fetus almost certainly has a trisomy when it actually doesn't) are unlikely but possible, so you would need CVS or amnio to confirm before taking any decision to TFMR if a trisomy was suspected. If you get a negative (i.e., very low-risk result), those are less likely to be incorrect than a positive and you can be pretty darn confident your baby doesn't have the conditions tested for. The test only returns basically binary results; they're expressed as a risk, but you'll either be very low-risk (i.e., 1 in 10,000) or very high-risk (i.e., the baby is probably affected).


----------



## Orchid-1

Thank you Crazyhorse and all the best for your pregnancy  

Thank you Ellaa. That is really useful.  

It will make our decision re DE easier.

ps Congrats Betty21


----------



## TiggerBounces

OK, Im a bit scared to post as I'm only now beginning to realise there are some seriously strong positions on this topic....I feel though that this is the safest place for me to post. We are thinking of DE in Spain. (I probably would tell any child we were lucky enough to have BUT my reason is very, very, very personal, my mum died of a very unusual type of leukaemia. I don't want to start justifying that decision here. I TOTALLY get why people don't/wouldn't tell their child and a massive part of me is still debating that).  What I'm most interested in is the anonymous part. I can't find much of a discussion around this stance, telling a child but them not being able to trace a donor... Should I be posting in the other group...(I'm really scared to!). Any advice? There's so much discussion and information on telling and knowing a donor, but I can't find much discussion or information on the pros of using an anonymous donor. Please help if this is the right place for posting. If not, Im sorry! x


----------



## CrazyHorse

I *think* bombsh3ll intends to disclose donor conception, but her treatment was in Spain and so the donor would be anonymous by law. Maybe she'll pop along in a bit and give her thoughts.

I doubt anyone would get upset about you posting on here as someone who plans to disclose to their own children, but has questions; it's just when people who don't want to disclose get pressured to change their minds that it all kicks off.


----------



## Lilly83

Hi Tigger 

Please don't dont feel afraid to post  

Anyone with questions is able to post in either as the ladies on both will give good advice, we just ask that those with firm views either way to stick to the relevant thread as like CH says we have had people crossing over 

L x


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## daisyg

Hi Tigger,

I have donor embryo twins from Spain who are 8 and I have told them from very early on.  You could chat to me on the telling thread if you like? 

(Hope it is OK for me to reply here?!)

Best

Daisy xxx


----------



## bundles

I was going to suggest you Daisy, and yes it's ok for you to answer here 
Tigger I have started a thread for you 

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=337304.new#new

Xx


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## daisyg

Thankyou Bundles! x


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## bombsh3ll

Hi Ladies,

My partner and I are non-disclosers 100% from the time I first decided on DE. It isn't on any UK record & my daughter is a very plausible phenotypic match. I respect others' decisions on what they choose for their own families, but for us there was never any question of, nor advantage to, behaving any differently than if she'd come from an OE cycle.

TiggerBounces, I've PMd you re FIV-Marbella.

B xxx


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## CrazyHorse

Sorry, bombsh3ll, not sure where I got the idea you were a discloser. I agree with you that, if you're not going to disclose, keeping it out of UK records and telling no one is the way to go -- one of the reasons I chose Reprofit for this last OE cycle was that, if we made the decision to move on to DE, they have a good program and it would be plausible to tell our families were were going back for more OE treatment, as we couldn't really disguise the purpose of the travel. Hopefully TiggerBounces will get some good advice on her new thread.


----------



## Blondie71

Hi Tigger I'm also a teller who used anon with NO regrets kids will grow up to know he's a donor and not 'dad" heck they prob wouldn't even be able to communicate as he"s Greek, I'm confident they aren't gonna lynch me over it   ps not planning on telling until I feel they have a grasp of it either x


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## CrazyHorse

Blondie, I think it was you I confused with bombsh3ll. I'm probably perfectly capable of making that mistake normally, but I'm going to blame it on pregnancy brain.


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## Blondie71

Looool you have a good excuse then and it only gets worse when baby is born


----------



## bombsh3ll

That's ok CrazyHorse,

I can see why you'd get us mixed up! I'm not a natural blonde it's out of a bottle, hence the speedy match in Spain  

B xxx


----------



## Blondie71

bottle blonde here too B


----------



## weffwild

So we finally had out counselling - for anyone who's not been following it was for DS via our clinic. I was very surprised actually, as many had said they tend to be one sided at the clinic Etc. we were shocked as we'd discussed this on the journey there and had said, unless they give us a reason that we'd 110% never thought about we're going in there with our plan.  And you know what we did that but we weren't swayed or had any attempt to. She was quite accomodating that we are choosing to not tell and just asked a few scenarios that we hadn't thought of but scarily my DH and I had the exact same responses to them all, great in a way I suppose! Same hymn sheet and all that! Anyway we feel happy with the counselling and had a lot answered and feel prepared to move on. We're just waiting on a couple of results to forward to the clinic and the donor search is in motion as we speak! So here's to a two week holiday abroad and my last alcohol consumption before treatment!


----------



## Jes87

Hey all,

Little off topic I suppose, but I have a question that I was wondering about  and thought you folks might be able to help with - we're in the telling camp (no judgement about not telling, though), but it might come up in the future if our daughter didn't really want anyone she had just met to know. How do you all manage eye colour?

My wife has blue eyes and I have green eyes, but our donor has brown eyes. At the moment her eyes are blue and looking like they will stay that way, but they could still change. It would be pretty much biologically impossible, or at least highly unlikely, for her to have brown eyes had she been conceived naturally. Did you all just pick a donor with the "right" eye colour, or have you got stories lined up in case?


----------



## bombsh3ll

Hi Jes87,

As we knew from the outset we wouldn't tell anyone, we would only have accepted a plausible donor ie physical features and blood group that could have resulted from OS/OE. Our clinic in Spain insisted on credible donor matching anyway as not-telling is more the norm there.

My daughter like me is brown eyed, and was born with brown eyes. How old is your daughter? If she is more than a few months a change in eye colour is unlikely.

Also, it would take someone very astute with in depth biological knowledge to figure out your daughter's genetic origins from the colour of hers & her family's eyes. Most people just aren't that observant, & even if someone did notice it would be beyond rude of them to comment on it.

Best wishes,

B xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Ellaa, generally speaking, brown eye colour is dominant, which means that a brown-eyed person can either have one gene for brown and one gene for blue/green, or two genes for brown. If I recall correctly, the genes for eye colour are actually a fair bit more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea. Blue eyes and pale skin are recessive traits, so an olive-skinned, brown-eyed person can still carry recessive genes for those. So if both you and your partner have blue eyes, and phenotype match is important to you, you would want a donor with blue eyes. But if either of you have brown eyes, or both of you have brown eyes, you could have have a donor with any eye colour and still have a child who is a plausible phenotype match for you both, as a child from your own gametes could in theory have any eye colour. Blue and green are more complicated; I think two truly blue-eyed people (with true grey being a subtype of blue) generally can't produce a green-eyed child, but -- again, If I recall correctly -- the gene for green is less dominant than the gene for brown. I don't recall whether hazel eyes are basically a subtype of brown eyes, from the gene dominance perspective, or if they're more complicated than that.


----------



## K jade

Jess i have to agree with bombshell, 
Even if a person noticed a child with different eye colour parents , it would more than likely just fly over their heads without a second thought
I cannot think off the top of my head what colour my DPs parents eyes are. I've probably never noticed.
Because it is now beyond normal for families to be 'non biological' , even if someone did notice, they are probably not going to think anything at all. 

The term 'donor conceived' is only known within the IVF community. People who have not experienced infertility wouldn't know what that meant, so defiantly wouldn't jump to that conclusion even if they were rude enough to comment on any discrepancy in eye colour


----------



## Me Myself and I

My lo is ds conceived. One half of the makeup has blue eyes the other brown. Lo has blue. All that's said is Great Uncle X had those exact eyes! 
In the scheme of things this is one of the lesser issues I'd think.


----------



## bundles

Hi Jes  It's very easy to get caught up in the specifics of things when using donors, A bit like knowing you have a big spot coming on your nose & thinking that everyone is looking at it, when the truth is that there's really nothing to see yet 
The actuality of eye colour genetics is quite complex and since it doesn't just concern a couple of genes is nowhere near as easy to explain as blood groups. Wiki sums it up quite nicely:

So far, as many as 15 genes have been associated with eye color inheritance. The earlier belief that blue eye color is a simple recessive trait has been shown to be incorrect. The genetics of eye color are so complex that almost any parent-child combination of eye colors can occur.

There is also another interesting site that tells 'How Blue Eyed Parents Can Have Brown Eyed Children':

http://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children

If in doubt, you could always say that the milkman has that colour eyes 

xx

/links


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thanks for that link, Bundles, that is fascinating! You definitely gave a much better explanation than me.    I did remember that there were quite a few genes involved in eye colour, but was not aware of the epistasis issue! Thanks for giving us the correct scoop on things.


----------



## Jes87

Thankd for the replies everyone! Turns out it's more complicated than I thought  I was using a pretty basic eye colour calculator that just had the brown as dominant and blue/green as recessive.

Also good point about people not being that observant ha.


----------



## Blondie71

I'm blue eyed and went for a brown eyed Greek for DS, I was convinced the boys would stay blue too as they looked blue until around 6 months and then they turned a hazel-green colour, doesn't help that they have saucer like eyes so they get alot of comments and it's usually "wow daddy must have lovely big brown eyes" oh yes he must lol


----------



## Jes87

Blondie71 said:


> I'm blue eyed and went for a brown eyed Greek for DS, I was convinced the boys would stay blue too as they looked blue until around 6 months and then they turned a hazel-green colour, doesn't help that they have saucer like eyes so they get alot of comments and it's usually "wow daddy must have lovely big brown eyes" oh yes he must lol


Hehe that's what I was thinking might happen with ours! She's seven months now so they *should* stay blue, but they are still pretty dark so could possibly change. If it comes up I reckon I'll just use Bundle's response about the milkman


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## bundles

Good call Jes   I think that 75% of the battle to making it believable is being prepared. The other 25 is keeping it simple  
Xx


----------



## TiggerBounces

Im jumping in here on the eye colour discussion. I have hazel eyes and DP has blue, our son with OE has hazel eyes like me. We're now considering DE and noone can find hazel eyed donors...all they're offering us is brown or green.  I don't know whether to compromise on this, I feel really strongly about matching my hazel eyes for some reason...eyes to the soul....I don't know....is this irrational....? Its almost looking like we'll have to cry off this time as they can't find them, not even in Spain which really surprises me. What do you reckon? Matter? Not matter?


----------



## CrazyHorse

TBH, I don't think it matters in terms of getting a plausible phenotype match, especially in light of what Bundles posted above -- a lot of green eyes are actually kind of hazel as well, plus two different pairs of hazel eyes can be very different in colour. Particularly in countries where light eyes are less common, I think hazel eyes often are called "green". Could that be the case here?


----------



## moonpig68

Tigger, both my parents have hazel eyes as do my siblings. I have unmistakably blue eyes so even if you do wait for a hazel eyed donor your baby may not have hazel eyes. So if it were me it wouldn't matter. If my clinic couldn't have found me a blue eyed donor then I would've gone with brown as that's what DP has, and both the babies have the most beautiful dark brown eyes like their daddy xx


----------



## bundles

Tigger when I was younger I desperately wanted to have brown eyes   so called my green ones hazel   They do actually have some brown around the pupil which can change as & when. Once I worked out that the boys liked green eyes, strangely I started calling them green  

As Crazy says, often green eyes will be called hazel as they may contain some brown - and having read my link we all understand the reasoning for that (and could now call ourselves eye colour geneticists   )   so I would request a donor with green eyes & you may well get the outcome you desire. In your situation I would specify NOT brown.

xx


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## Clara01

I have hazel eyes, but there are countries like Italy (my home-country) that do not call eyes "hazel".   Eyes can only be "green, blue, gray, brown or black". So I had on my IDs "green" or "brown" eyes, depending on the person at the ID-office.


----------



## Clara01

bundles said:


> There is also another interesting site that tells 'How Blue Eyed Parents Can Have Brown Eyed Children':
> http://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children


How interesting! Thank you, Bundles!


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## Lilly83

Talking of eye colours I get told mine are blue, green or grey dependin who I ask, DPs are brown and no one can ever decide on mine, we take any eye colour in a donor 

L x


----------



## MissMayhem

Hi everyone I hope it's ok for me to join you? I've been reading this thread with interest and am kind of glad I've not been privy to the pressurised comments that seem to have been removed. As if treatment and the whole enormous pain of infertility wasn't enough we are sometimes subject to attack from some of those with different opinions and now have to ponder questions that nobody else ever has to even think of. I'm absolutely of the opinion that eye colour really doesn't matter now after having read all of this. I think my mother's eyes are a grey green colour, I've no idea what my father's are. I should've read this sooner as waited ages in UK for a Blue eyed egg donor match (still waiting!)

Have recently had a tandem cycle abroad with what the clinic said was very good match donor (eye/hair colour, height etc). Took me ages to get my head around donor egg. I absolutely do NOT want to tell anyone. If this treatment works the baby is mine, nobody else's. I feel like I _should_ tell though and don't know why I'm putting some much pressure on myself. I'm even terrified that my husband is going to slip up and tell someone. I'm a step mother and have experienced the pain of rejection from a child I have prioritised for many years so don't want to experience that again with my own. The only person who knows I've had a tandem cycle is my mother. She's of the mindset that any baby will be mine and that children can often be given too much unnecessary information anyway.

My own embryo wasn't the best quality so it's unlikely that it will be the one to make it if any of them do so am really emotional at the minute, grieving for the loss of genetic link, not seeing my parents/grandparents in my child like the rest of my family can with their children (I _am_ one of these fascinated by family history/resemblances etc.)

I guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance that not telling is ok. We had PGD testing abroad so I have no plans to mention anything to gp/hospital etc. Weffwild could I ask what questions the counsellor asked you please? Am really trying to balance this in my head, trying to make the decision between what I desperately want and what I feel society's expectations are of me.xx


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## bombsh3ll

Hi MissMayhem,

Welcome on board & congrats on being pupo!!

I was lucky in many ways, both in being unconcerned about genetics & also with getting a very good match - the clinic coordinator said the donor was my double, & my daughter is not just like me but also the spitting image of my mum and maternal grandmother (my dad's words, only my partner & I know we used DE). You're not necessarily going to miss out on family similarities.

I have no possibility of natural conception, but if I did I'd think I had rather than that she came from the treatment

Whilst I can't directly relate to wobbling over DE - I was over the moon to contract out stimms - or about disclosure (we never even contemplated it), I do know that it doesn't come easy for many people.

I just wanted to say 2 things that may make you feel better - one is that poor quality embryos can and do take, & unless you have more babies than the number of OE embryos transferred in a tandem cycle, you will never know which embryos they came from unless you do DNA tests. And I bet it won't even seem nearly as important once you have your family.

The second is that an lot of people seem to feel that they "should" tell the child about using DE/DS/DD, without really knowing why or being able to articulate any rational or considered advantages to doing so. Maybe they feel uncomfortable about taking 100% of the credit for a miracle they had a bit of help creating, who knows? If you're unsure, like with other things I would sit down & make a list of pros & cons for telling & not telling, or maybe talk it over with an unbiased counsellor.

Best of luck whatever you decide, I hope this cycle works for you!

B xxx


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## Cordelia

Miss mayhem I am in the same position and could have written your post.  I have had to deal with so much negativity and cruel words (at times from my own parents) about being infertile that I really don't want to tell people that it's a DE pregnancy.  I don't think my family would treat my children the same way and I worry that MIL etc would see them as DH's children not mine.  I also think that it may just confuse children to be told that I am not their genetic mum and to not be able to tell them anything about who is.

Having said that I have always wanted to be honest with my kids, something my parents weren't with me.  So I'm currently in limbo about what to do.  90% of the time now I don't even think about it but I did have a wobble a few weeks ago and became very jealous of DH and his connection with them.  I also find it hard when people talk about who they will look like but I think I'm just not used to that yet and the more it happens, the less I will worry.

Bombshell I think I might make that list.

Cordelia xxxx


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## Shoegirl10

It's love that makes a family in my opinion
we are going down DE route and couldn't be more happier
xxxx


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## Orchid-1

Shoegirl10 said:


> It's love that makes a family in my opinion
> we are going down DE route and couldn't be more happier
> xxxx


Well said Shoegal. A friend of mine did go the DE route. They all love the baby to bits anyway. I wish she had not told me. Complelely unnecessary. xxx


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## hogmeister

I'm another one who has no intention of telling and am perfectly happy with my decision. Have told my DH that if anything happens to me he is under no circumstances to tell either. I love the fact that my family make a huge fuss of my children, drive miles to celebrate their birthdays,  maybe they would anyway but I would always wonder. People comment how one of my DDs looks like me and if initially I felt a bit uneasy about it, I now agree with them and say (and mean) "She certainly does!" A few friends know and I trust them not to say anything too so if anyone feels they have told people and it is too late then it isn't if you trust the people you have told.
We as a family are just getting on with life with our children and have no interest in the DCN. That is not to be negative about them, just to say that there are other points of view out there as some of the posts on here could give you the willies.


----------



## MissMayhem

Thanks for the welcome and the responses. I'm feeling more and more strongly as the days go on. I just hope this works now, I really do. I had a little peep at the DCN myself too, they have a video on there. It was all I needed to decide against it, it's probably an absolutely wonderful and essential avenue of support for some,  but it's not for me.  I've also had a chat with my friend who's adopted, she has had some major difficulties with her mother and in the past decade has met her birth mother. She kind of echoed what you said Shoegirl10. She'd craved a relationship with her birth mother for years and said that ultimately the reality would never live up to her fantasy. She almost wishes she didn't know now and absolutely affirms that her mother is her mother, despite some of the difficulties they've had, she's the one who is always there for her no matter what. Made me feel better again hearing that.

I love hearing you talk about your husband's minime Hogmeister. My stepdaughter looks like her father and her mother, but actually looked a little like me when she was younger too even though I don't look like either of her parents. Funny how we get hung up on things like this. Parents the world over have biological children who look nothing like them. I don't even like this 'biological' business, my plan is not to use it any more;  if any of these embies stick they're absolutely mine.

Thank you all.xx


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## HMF

Hello! It's been quite a while since I posted regularly on fertility friends as I've been out of the loop for a while since my son was born, he's 3 1/2 now. DH and I are thinking of trying again with DE cycle next year.
I hope you don't mind me joining you! 
It's an interesting debate re eye colour, I never asked much about my sons donor, I think it's because I didn't want to think too much about his genetics and concentrate more on him being mine!! Im definately in the no telling camp as I guess I worry about my son rejecting me in the future and he is unable to do anything about the information as his donor is anonymous, I think -if he knows how much turmoil could that cause him?
He feels like mine 100%, is his dad's double and blond and blue eyed! Both me and DH have brown hair and blue/ green eye. People often say where does he get his blond hair but my brother is blond and DH was blond up untill he was 2 so I always answer them  with that line! He obviously doesn't look like me but then I have friends who kids have no family resemblance to either parents!genes can be funny can't they!! 
Anyway I just wanted to 
share my thoughts on this
Helen xx


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## Lorsha

Me and my husband have decided not to tell anyone about  our donor egg my baby is now 8 weeks why  tell anyone even family? I believe if u tell even 1 trustworthy person chances are it may be told people being people. Kids have enough to deal with these day growing up without having to figure out how they feel about coming from a donor egg or sperm. This is just our opinion .. If you have a blood transfusion u don't go around saying you have donor blood


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## Lilly83

I have moved your post Lorsha to the 'Not telling thread' for you, feel free to discuss your reasons for choosing not to tell on this board

L


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## Cordelia

Ladies some advice please.

We had anonymous donation in Greece and I have not declared it to any of my health professionals.  Each time I was asked I said that they were my eggs.  I backed out of harmony testing in case they could tell and thought everything was going fine.  Then I went for my 20 week scan last week and on the report they have given me it says "date of egg donations" and "age at egg donation".  This has totally thrown me and the consultant at this weeks appointment questioned it with me and asked if they were my eggs.  She then wrote "not donor eggs" underneath and told me to ask at my next appointment if it was just terminology and if so can they change it to egg collection.

My worry is that initially they said I needed harmony testing and so I agreed.  Then I realised that it might show up that it was DE so I withdrew from the test (less than 24 hours later) and was assured that my bloods would be withdrawn and the test would not go ahead.  I have this in writing from them.  But what if they did the test anyway? Do you think it is just terminology?  They had used my age to calculate all the risks etc.  

What do you think?  Am I being paranoid?

Cordelia xxx


----------



## Blondie71

Cordelia I read it like this: "date at egg donation" = the date you COULD have had egg collection and possibly frozen them and "age at egg donation" YOUR age when you had them collected because you could have had them collected 8 years ago for example which changes the test results drastically,  relax I really really really doubt they know anything it's just your own awkwardness about having to keep a huge secret that causing you paranoia


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## Cordelia

Thanks blondie, I have a big dose of paranoia at the moment of a lot of things which I'm blaming on hormones.  I was convinced last week that work wanted rid of me.

Cordelia xxxx


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## CrazyHorse

Hi, Cordelia -- first, hugs.   It sounds like hormones are making you a stress monkey at the moment, and I empathise because they've been doing that to me too.

The term "donation" is often used with respect to IVF regardless of which party "donated" the gametes. For instance, I have a document somewhere from Reprofit, where I did OE IVF, that refers to the procedure as "self-donation", which frankly I thought was pretty funny. It's just a way of clarifying that the info being sought is info about the party whose gametes were used, not the party who is carrying the baby (if the two are different); or, like Blondie says, in the case of frozen eggs, clarifying that they want to know the age you were when the eggs were produced, not the age you are now. Obviously you are not under any obligation to disclose that information, as the only difference it will make is to lower your risk score on some screening tests.

The Harmony test does not look at parentage. The only results that will be returned are risk scores for the common triploidies and, if desired, sex chromosome information. Your doctors would never receive any information from an NIPT like Harmony as to whether you and your babies were genetically related, and I don't think even the lab analysing the samples would ever know either, because that's not one of the things they're testing for.

Hopefully that helps.


----------



## Cordelia

Thanks crazy I am a bit of a nightmare at the moment.  Very teary and stressy.  Hoping it will pass over the next few weeks.

Feeling better about it all now.

Cordelia xxx


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## Blondie71

Glad you're feeling bit better, that paranoia once it sets in can take you on quite a trip eh


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## Fox Gloves

Hi all, do you mind if I join the thread? I am just about to commence DE IVF in Spain and we do not plan to tell anyone at all, including the child/children born. 

I have a daughter conceived naturally and whilst I have very blue eyes and my husband has light brown eyes, my daughter has very dark chocolate brown eyes! I had never really thought about what people would think until I needed to consider donor eggs for a sibling! Suffice to say although I would like a blue eyed donor, I would accept brown. I would love the DE baby to look like me, but the fact that my OE daughter doesn't, kind of sums up that it isn't really that important.


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## betty21

Good morning foxgloves - I too have a child conceived naturally that does look like me - I also had DE from Spain and my DH is Spanish yet they used a donor that was similar to me - fair hair and fair skin, blue eyes - our daughter was born with blonde hair blue eyes but looks just like her daddy - same shaped face head and definitely his mannerisms - nobody in the family know just DH and I and my doctor - we are currently 16 weeks pregnant using the same donor - if this baby which is confirmed by harmony test to be a girl does not look the same as our daughter I can only assume she takes after the donor more - I don't have a problem with this - she is still our new daughter and I am so excited - good luck xx


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## Fox Gloves

Congratulations Betty! what is a harmony test, not heard of that. x


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## weffwild

Hello everyone, long time no message! I've worked away for a month or so and we are still awaiting our treatment. Have now finally got to DS and have a donor but now been told that our bloods are no longer valid (as need to be 3 months recent of treatment date) so need to repeat before we go any further. So had this confirmed This morning that we have a donor and also sold our house! All good news. We've decided we're not telling and we seem pretty set on that, getting more excited at the thought of going ahead with some IUI now so fingers crossed! Can anyone give me an idea of what clinics tend to get you to do when you're doing natural ovulation , do they provide ovulation tests etc?


----------



## itwillhappen2015

Hiya everyone 
Just a question/query. We are in the no telling anyone camp. What did you do in regards to GP? I do not want it anywhere on my notes. Do I just say I had ivf, do I  say it was natural? Any advice greatly appreciated! Talk about thinking positive. Haha I am only having my ET this week!


----------



## Fox Gloves

Good luck it will happen! I am not telling my dr for the same reasons, I do not want it in my notes. I plan to say I had IVF (as I know this can make you higher risk for some things like pre eclampsia) but wont mention using DE.


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## bundles

Hi Weffwild   you may get more specific answers if you ask on the IUI board.

IWH   I'm not sure how old you are but at my age natural was unlikely   I was happy for my old GP to know but didn't want it on my records. 

Xx

Ooops!!! Edited to say didn't want it on my records


----------



## Blondie71

Bundles has anybody outside of medical field (obviously they'd know about realistic cut-off age with oe) ie your own family etc ever questioned you if DE or not? I honestly think alot goes over peoples heads regarding tx they have no clue about in's & out's.


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## Blondie71

Itwillhappen prob a good idea to say IVF but no need to mention donor unless life of baby depended on it but that's highly unlikely x


----------



## bundles

Blondie no, no one  has ever passed comment - well to me anyway   Generally I think that there are three reasons for this. Firstly I have a reputation for speaking my mind   so most close family members wouldn't dare to be so rude ! Secondly, I generally don't look my age and people often think I'm 10yrs younger - although these days I look quite rough   And thirdly, as you rightly say, most people don't have a clue   I've had the odd generic 'youve left it late' to which I reply (if they're nice) Well we were having too much fun trying   or (if theyre not nice) Well I lost 2 babies....... Which is normally enough to shut them up and make them squirm  
Tbh I wonder how many people have actually heard of DE. DS is much more common, and yet I think people still wouldn't suspect unless you were a single lady mentioning ivf.

Xx


----------



## Lilly83

Bundles I can't imagine you being the type to speak your mind? You always had me down as the quiet type  

You do look young though I can vouch for that! 

It's true donor conception isn't really on people's radar unless it was for like you say a same sex couple, when I told people they either hadn't heard of it or thought it was surrogacy 

L xx


----------



## bundles

Lilly how well you know me   I actually keep quiet about my age now so that less questions are asked. People will often only see what they want to anyway. 

Xx


----------



## Blondie71

Yeah that's why I was wondering because I see so many women sweating on here about it but I honestly don't think it crosses peoples  minds outside of IVF world, I'm single so unless it was immaculate conception - hey well it kinda was   I was up front as I had to shut people up from gossip and assumptions


----------



## Moragob

I agree with Blondie and my experience is that most people don't have a clue about IVF let alone DE/DS IVF.  I do occasionally get asked if I am my daughters grandmother   but now she's older and calling me Mummy people simply don't question it.  I do sometimes tell people that she is IVF but that has usually been in the context of people asking if we are planning siblings.  And now that I am obviously pregnant again their minds can't cope with the idea that it would be anything else.

I have told and have had to explain exactly what DEIVF is as they really, really don't have a clue.  So I think most people simply take it at face value and assume that as you have a child it must have been a natural conception and if not then it is IVF (which a lot of people think is the miracle answer that works every time for everyone).


----------



## K jade

I second this . Joe public really has no idea about IVF.

One of my colleagues once said to me " do u think Michael Jacksons children are adopted, they look nothing like him"  LOL!
Somehow I don't think michael Jackson would have passed an adoption assessment ...

The majority of people would have to actually look up "donor conception" and read into it to find out what it is and what it involves
Especially so when it comes to donor eggs


----------



## moonpig68

Yes, not once have I been asked whether the twins are DE, only if they are "natural" and that's by complete strangers. I suppose people wonder about about IVF more when there's two. As for being mistaken for their grandmother...When the babies were just a few weeks old I was with my grown up daughter who had just come back from holiday, looking very refreshed, slim and tanned. I on the other hand looked a complete wreck - huge muffin top, greasy pony tail, baby sick on my top, bags under my eyes - and someone thought they were my daughter's. Maybe I didn't look as much of a mess as I thought I did...


----------



## Blondie71

Haha the granny thing is coming my way when they start school I'm sure cos where I live most seem to have had their kids around 20 so are a granny at 40 (sometimes earlier). Btw if anybody questions age a good way to fob them off is just to say IVF with your own embies that you froze x number of years ago, even medical staff won't question that.


----------



## Maltby73

Hi, hope it's okay to jump in and ask your opinion please?  We are just at the stage of moving onto DE for child no 2. We plan not to tell so have been considering a Spanish clinic (it just doesn't feel right having other identifiable siblings / bio mother in the background).  That said, we have been fortunate to be almost immediately offered a decent match on a UK donor in a clinic we know well which is just round the corner from where we live.  I am torn between sticking with a clinic we trust / ease of treatment or start a fresh with an overseas clinic but with the benefit of true anonymity.  Id appreciate any views, particularly where anyone has opted not to tell but has used a UK donor (w/o anonymity).  Thanks in advance!


----------



## Orchid-1

Maltby- if you use a UK Donor, I think HFEA gets told that the baby is from a donor and I think it will be in your health records. Perhaps I have misread your post and you know this already. 

i would prefer anonymity. That is why if I go to the donor route I intend to go abroad. My thinking is that you would quickly develop a trusting relationship with an overseas clinic. Maybe talk to/ go and see a couple of clinics abroad that you like and then make up your mind then.


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## Orchid-1

Kjade - I was told by HFEA that clinics must tell them about OE and DE for each patient. They said it was part of their regulations. I guess if people don't send in the forms and don't detail their pregnancy, then it would be possible to drop off the radar. That is good to know.


----------



## Orchid-1

Anon said:


> I'm not saying to people lie to get out of being registered, but basically the current rules rely on the patient being honest and willing to report the birth of a child
> But none of its enforceable
> Lets face it ordinary people are not required to register their child with HFEA so uts a little unfair that we do.


I agree. All the best. x

Moderator note. Quote amended to protect anonymity


----------



## Maltby73

Thanks for your responses. So can I keep it off my medical records? For example would I have to tell the hospital as part of the antenatal process?


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## K jade

No absolutely not. My counsellor was quite clear in saying its your info and totally up to u who u tell. U are under no obligation to tell your ante natal clinic
Think about all the women pregnant by random men from flings and one nighters
They aren't obligated to reveal this to their midwife are they? Its your body, your pregnancy and your business 

Glad to have helped.


----------



## Maltby73

K jade - that's great thank you


----------



## bombsh3ll

If you're keen for privacy and anonymity I'd say go abroad. That way you have total peace of mind & there is no "paper trail".

I was open about the fact my daughter was a hard-fought-for IVF baby as I wanted my midwives & consultant to be fully aware what it had taken for me to become pregnant & that if anything went wrong I wouldn't just be able to have sex & become pregnant again. I do feel this resulted in closer monitoring, however I never disclosed I had used DE. 

Nobody ever asked me about the origin of the eggs or sperm, it was taken for granted that I'd conceived from OEIVF. I would say though that this was probably due to my age as I was 31 - if you are older, especially over 40 & disclose you've conceived by IVF, you should be prepared to potentially be asked directly if DE were used. Lying will not have any negative impact on your care but it will obviously be easier to anticipate this and be prepared what you would say rather than be caught by surprise. 

B xxx


----------



## Me Myself and I

Hi all
I'm wondering whether - perhaps contradictory- whether there are any meet ups/support groups for those not telling? I know it sounds mad!


----------



## bundles

You could all wear paper bags over your heads  
xx


----------



## bombsh3ll

That's really funny I can just picture it!   

I think face to face meet-ups for non-disclosers would probably suit those at the stage of planning/having treatment and not intending to tell or undecided rather than those of us who already have our children.

Obviously once you've been successful you don't want to get involved with anything that would identify the type of treatment you've had, but also I can't see the whole "donor conception" issue continuing to matter (if it did in the first place - not everyone is bothered about genetics) once you've got your lovely baby.

B xxx


----------



## Orchid-1

paper bags - Ha lol


----------



## Fox Gloves

Crying at the thought of a meet up with paper bags over our heads!! We could all wear disguises  

On a serious note though me myself and I, I do understand how you feel. I want total anonymity but at the same I really like the support on here and love the feeling that I'm not the only one this is happening to!


----------



## bundles

Ladies, it has been reported that 'people are suggesting it's OK not to report pregnancies to the HFEA' I have today rung HFEA for some clarification on their rules/policies.

My understanding is now as follows: Firstly, only someone who *knows* or *suspects* they were donor conceived can request information from HFEA. HFEA never voluntarily offer information. Even if the rules are changed in the future, 2015 would be bound by the rules currently in force. Generally, it is the clinic that inform HFEA when a patient is treated with donor gametes and a file is opened. If, after a time, there is no pregnancy outcome recorded, HFEA will contact the clinic citing an 'Open Case' In a situation where the patient has not informed the clinic of their pregnancy outcome then the clinic may attempt to contact the patient but if no contact can be made then HFEA will mark the file as 'Follow up Lost' Regarding the '10 family limit for each donor' it is the clinics responsibility to monitor each donors number and contact HFEA accordingly. In a situation where contact was lost it is the clinic that decides how to report this (possibly by assuming a child has been produced) but if they didn't record things reasonably accurately, then they would be breaching the HFEA rules.

I hope this goes a way to reassure you. It is important to say that Fertility Friends would never condone the withholding of important information. I guess the only way to be 100% anonymous is to go abroad, although technically the UK is in effect 100% anonymous if you decide not to tell, and make sure nothing is added to your maternity notes/gp record.

Feel free to PM me if you need any other clarification 
Bundles xx

(Please note I have not removed any posts & feel it's important to keep this informative discussion intact)


----------



## bombsh3ll

Hi Jo,

Congratulations on your little boy  

I am sorry your previous egg donor isn't able to donate again, however I don't think you need to worry about future siblings' looks as the common denominator in terms of maternal characteristics is you. They will have selected a lady who looked like you last time, & will do so again (we all like to think we're unique & individual but really most people can be reasonably matched without much hardship). Good donor matching plus epigenetics really do go a long way.

Even if you did have two children who were like chalk and cheese, that happens all the time in the fertile world too & nobody bats an eyelid. Unless they have personal experience or happen to be a reproductive endocrinologist, most people don't even know DEIVF exists.  

Unless you've disclosed on your medical records, there is no way your child(ren) could know unless you choose to tell them. 

Best wishes,

B xxx


----------



## Fox Gloves

Hey ladies,

Just looking for some advice really..... I am about to have DE IVF and we do not plan to tell anyone at all. My only worry is that our close family and some friends know that I have low amh and that the chances with my eggs are slim. They know my only other option is DE. I am worried that when a possible baby comes along and if he/she looks nothing like my OE LO they might start to suspect.

Does or did anyone else have these worries? And for those that did and now have DE children, how did it pan out, do you ever worry about that any more? I don't think I would be as worried if it was my first child but I worry that my OE child and a future DE child would be more like half siblings and not really be similar. 

I know there are no answers.... just looking for support really x


----------



## Orchid-1

Sending you hugs Fox.  

Some siblings don't look the same anyway.


----------



## Carter4

Hi Fox

I have five month old twin girls from DE. We told absolutely no one. I occasionally worry that a family member may suspect, but it is very fleeting. Also the chances of anyone voicing this to us are slim to none anyway. Ironically one of my girls is the double of her older sister, who in turn looks just like me. My other twin girl perhaps resembles my DH, but I should imagine more like our donor. Already in these first few months I worry less and less. Essentially you just crack on with this amazing little family unit you have. The half part sibling crossed my mind beforehand, but doesn't even get a look in anymore. I wish you every success x


----------



## Tomtom123

Hello. I hope you don't mind me posting here. I'm pregnant with donor conceived twins. Unfortunately one does not look too healthy and I've been advised to do either cvs or harmony test. My preference would be for harmony as less risky. However the place where we went for early scan is not my clinic we did I've and we did not disclose that they were donor eggs. I am worried now that the test either won't work or will show I'm not genetic mother. Does anyone know if you don't disclose this whether the results will be possible? I know it looks to detect free Dna from the foetus in my blood but in a genetic connection there would be similarities in the dna but with donor embryos no link at all. I really don't want to disclose at this point as I'm still trying to process it fully


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Tomtom, no need to worry about Harmony -- its results won't show whether your baby is genetically related to you, and results also will not be affected by any information such as your age or whether you used DE.


----------



## bombsh3ll

Tomtom123,

CrazyHorse is right, the test is not looking for whether the baby carries your DNA & nor is it affected by disclosing use of DE or not.

The only thing I would add is that neither of these tests are mandatory & you should think carefully about whether the results would change your management. Talk through the implications for both twins with your consultant. 

I opted not to have any tests for Downs' etc as the result wouldn't have lead to any improvement in mine or my baby's care. If positive I would only have been offered an abortion or a procedure that can cause one, but obviously with twins I realise that things can be more complicated & that difficult decisions may need to be made in order to give you the best chance of going home with at least one baby. 

Wishing you and your babies a positive outcome,

B xxx


----------



## Blondie71

There are tests you may need to disclose on is if a problem is detected with the babies after they are born (more common unfortunately in twins) in which either both or one baby will need genetics dna tests and if anything comes up amiss they will test you and hubby, if it's serious other close family members too so then it will be obvious that there is no genetic link to you, my twins are currently undergoing these tests and they will test me too if anything shows up next month, hope this doesn't freak you out but better to be prepared for all the scenarios esp where multiples are concerned x


----------



## Tomtom123

Many thanks for the replies. I worried that they need to know as they are trying to analyse babies free DNA within my blood. Apparently only recently has the test been available for DE singletons or twins so I wonder why that is? What has changed with the test. Crazy horse you sound like you understand the test. Are you sure that if I don't declare it the test will still work. 
I'm opting for harmony over cvs or amino because there is no unnecessary risk to the babies. I know I don't have to but a problem with one baby may affect the other and we would rather know what we are facing so we can at least be prepared. I'm not sure what we will do longer term - one thing at a time. Thank you for your help.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Tomtom -- yes, Harmony will still work if you don't declare your use of DE. The reason it wasn't approved to be marketed for twins or DE singletons was just due to a lack of accumulated empirical evidence for these categories, which is understandable as they account for a small fraction of all pregnancies. They're not comparing the baby's DNA to yours for similarities, they only need to be able to distinguish the baby's DNA from yours (which obviously they can do as the baby's not your clone). The thing with doing Harmony with twins is that if you get a high-risk result, you won't know which baby is high-risk, or if both are high-risk. But a low-risk result will apply to both babies.


----------



## CurlyGirl1225

Hello

After four years of issues I've just got my BFP from using donor eggs. It's very very early days but I'm already wondering if I need or should tell the midwife or nhs that we used as donor. Especially when last year a natural pregnancy ended in termination from a chromosome problem? 

Should I allow them to keep me in a high risk bubble? Does it matter if I don't tell them?

Thank you


----------



## Orchid-1

Curlygirl - no I personally don't think it matters if you don't tell them. Off course it is up to you.
The midwife is not a Geneticist.


----------



## bombsh3ll

Hi CurlyGirl,

There's no medical advantage to disclosing use of DE in my opinion.

I emphasized the fact that I'd gone through 3 self-funded IVF cycles, hence the stakes for me were far higher & the psychological landscape very different than someone who could conceive naturally, but the origin of the eggs wouldn't have changed my care in any way so I allowed the assumption that I'd used my own eggs to continue.

Depending on your age you may be considered "higher risk" if thought to have used OE - I was 31 so my age never really came into it - but closer monitoring, if it applies to you, is no bad thing. 

I personally declined any tests for non-treatable conditions such as Down's as a positive result wouldn't have changed my management, but if you do opt for such screening and your age is significantly more than the donor's, your real risk is a lot lower than that estimated by any age-based calculation.

Best wishes,

B xxx


----------



## Fox Gloves

CrazyHorse said:


> Hi, Tomtom -- yes, Harmony will still work if you don't declare your use of DE. The reason it wasn't approved to be marketed for twins or DE singletons was just due to a lack of accumulated empirical evidence for these categories, which is understandable as they account for a small fraction of all pregnancies. They're not comparing the baby's DNA to yours for similarities, they only need to be able to distinguish the baby's DNA from yours (which obviously they can do as the baby's not your clone). The thing with doing Harmony with twins is that if you get a high-risk result, you won't know which baby is high-risk, or if both are high-risk. But a low-risk result will apply to both babies.


Just for others reading this thread, this wasn't the case for me. I had a harmony test and didn't disclose that I had used DE (when asked I stated I had used OE) and my test came back as failed. I spoke to the senior lab technician and she explained that DNA was found in my blood which was not mine and was not my babies. She said this would happen with DE or possibly a vanishing twin. Since I had not disclosed DE we went with vanishing twin but personally I will always wonder. If I was ever in the same position, for the harmony only I would be honest.


----------



## bombsh3ll

That's really interesting about the foreign DNA in your blood FG - I can't see where else that would come from other than a vanished multiple. Using DE doesn't explain DNA being there that doesn't belong to either you or your baby. 

I wonder how long DNA from a previous pregnancy or miscarriage hangs around & if this could be another explanation for it which also isn't specific to using DE?

B xxx


----------



## Fox Gloves

I know, I was really shocked! I did have 2 embies put back so it's possible it was that but the lab technician did say it would also happen with DE so I just wanted to warn others just in case. Also I had very high levels of fetal Dna in my blood. 

I haven't told my hospital or anyone else about DE though and all has been fine. X


----------



## Orchid-1

Thank you ladies for the information. 

In that case maybe doing the harmony privately would be an option for me. x


----------



## rednick

Can someone please tell me how to join the private discussion board for not telling support?
Thanks


----------



## HMF

Red Nick I'd like to join also x


----------



## Lilly83

Hi ladies 

Management will look into your request to be added, it's open to long standing members who are frequent posters who are 100% decided on not to tell

L x


----------



## rednick

Thank you Lilly I'm not a regular poster but I am 100% sure about not telling I have DD already who was result of embryo adoption and currently pregnant with 2nd embryo adoption. I have flown into complete paranoid mode imagination is awful! I know most if not all scenarios will not happen but would like chance to discuss them with sensible level heads.
Thanks again


----------



## Fox Gloves

Hi, please could I be considered for the group as well? I am 100% decided on not telling and dread discussing it elsewhere as certain members will appear like a magnet to try and persuade you otherwise! It would be nice to have support on a busier thread from those who haven't or will not tell. Thanks x


----------



## Lilly83

I put your name forward too Fox 

The only reason we were restricting members was so it was a safer place to discuss openly and so we knew it was only genuine non tellers with access, red I can see you have been a member a long time 

Mel or Bundles will arrange access if authorised 

Lilly xx


----------



## Fox Gloves

Thanks lily x


----------



## HMF

Lilly, I'm 100% decided not to tell my DE conceived son and I'm due to go head with a DE/DD cycle next month. I'm undecided of if have a DD child so maybe this is not the thread for me? I really need the support though so if you know of a thread that I can join for support let me know thankyou x


----------



## Me Myself and I

Lilly83 said:


> Hi ladies
> 
> Management will look into your request to be added, it's open to long standing members who are frequent posters who are 100% decided on not to tell
> 
> L x


Can I also be considered for access?

Many thanks


----------



## Orchid-1

Me too. Thank you.


----------



## weffwild

Please can I request access to not telling board


----------



## Carter4

Please could I also be given some consideration for being allowed to join the private thread. A safe haven to speak freely sounds like a little slice of heaven. I have DE twin girls.


----------



## Lilly83

Added you to the list


----------



## bundles

Ladies can I request that you PM either myself or Lilly to request access to the private Not Telling Board, and please include a reason for wanting to join.

Access is limited to people who have decided *not to tell* their child/ren or friends/family they used or are using a donor. It is unlikely that new members, with no posting history, will be given access. If you are still debating then this thread and possibly the Telling thread are the places to post and discuss.

Bundles


----------



## Sugar27

Can I too request to join not to tell as I have so many 100%  reasons as to not tell. This would divide my family so my child needs stability not conflict but support around possible issues would be great

Thank s


----------



## Wheeze

Hi it is really quiet on this thread, is everyone on the private not telling one?

DH and I have just had a bfp with double donor and we are not planning on telling. 
Super excited but starting feel the enormity of what we have undertaken.
We have OE LO who is a real mixture of the 2 of us and I am just having a few nerves about it all - really happy and feel VERY lucky, although it is early days and don't want to get carried away before first scan or anything.

Guess I just wondered how those who have had DE, DS or DD coped with any feelings like this?  
We weren't matched for blood group or anything (although don't actually know what DH's is anyway).  
We are quite private people and with our families etc decided that a not telling anyone policy is the best way for us personally but did anyone have/come across any problems by doing this?
Sorry if that's really personal question but just trying to get my head around everything... 

Did you worry that your bubs would look so different to you people will comment - I can't imagine it would be a probably but the hormones are sending me a bit nuts at the moment I think! 

Thanks for any advice
xx


----------



## Orchid-1

Wheeze - congrats on your BFP. 

A friend of mine had DE and was worried about the same. Did not happen. 
Her toddler actually looks like her AND her husband. If she had not told me I would not have known. She has not told anyone else. 

It certainly has her personality so environment plays a huge part, as does epigenetic. The baby is so cute. 
Don't worry and all the best. 

x


----------



## Wheeze

Thanks Orchid, that is so good to hear.  I am sure you are right and provided all goes according to plan it will be fine. 
x


----------



## Mrs G 0207

Wheeze, we are going ahead with DS treatment next year and I too worry about the comments about the child not looking like DH. This is why I'm going. To serum as penny seems to match really well. 
I've decided that if I get comments about not knowing who it looks like I will say something like we'll it looks like itself. Not every baby looks like a certain parent.  My brother could be the milkmans lol!!


----------



## Love another

Why do counsellors push so much to tell the child? Also everywhere I look on the internet it's a push to tell. The more I think about it the more I wonder what are the benefits ... Surely all it does is unsettle the child especially if it's anonymous and they have no way of tracing the donor why tell? In our situation we have our daughter ( oe ) and I really feel telling any future child that they are from de could create a situation where the child would feel like the don't belong as much as their big sister. My husband has always been in the not telling camp it has taken me a while to weigh it all up but I'm here now too.


----------



## Pinkie3

Hi ladies, I am not sure how active this thread is but I was hoping someone could give me some advice if they have ever been in this position. 

We are in the not telling camp, for a number of reasons, same as what Love Another says, I can't see the benefit, we went to Greece so donor was anonymous which will only leave unanswered questions. My DH family are quite old school and we are not sure they will understand. Also I don't want my child to have a tag around them for the rest of their life. I cannot see what the benefit is and I wish there was more support for the 'not telling'. They talk a lot about how after research they believe it's better for the child to know but have they done any research on the millions of children that have never been told? I didn't think so. 

Anyway, I have a problem. We used donor egg to achieve this pregnancy and I told my sonographer at my 12 week scan to ensure the combined nuchal scan would be accurate. I explained that I did not want this recorded on my file and I was only disclosing this information for the blood test reasons. She was not happy that my midwife had not completed the form and got a strop on and even though I told her I did not want DE recorded she went and wrote on my file 'donor details completed by sonographer at time of scan'. Absolutely pathetic, this has no relevance to my pregnancy and just a dig at my midwife at my expense. I was fuming. 

I had to tell my midwife at my next appointment because I wanted it removed, she was really supportive and agreed it didn't need to be on there. Unfortunately it was now on the database on my file and difficult to take off. She said she would make some calls and see what she can do, and it would probably be sorted by the time my 20 week scan comes around, the sentence will be removed and I can get my notes reprinted. 

So today I had my 20 weeks scan, which I am pleased to say was all good. I had a different sonographer who was lovely but this sentence was still on my file. She called the IT department and after a lengthy wait was told they will not remove it because it needed to be on there and was relevant to my pregnancy. What a load of rubbish. How does someone in an IT department know what is relevant or not, How do they make that decision. it's my record and I am requesting it to be removed. I have been advised to get in touch with PALS but I have no idea what they can do, I have sent them an email so hope I get a response soon.

I left the hospital today and burst into tears, I am so upset, stressed and anxious about this and so mad they are causing this. I was hoping to take my MIL to a scan and asking my sister to be a backup birthing partner but now I don't want to do either in fear that someone will mention the DE or they will see it on my notes. I feel completely out of control of the situations and it's really unsettling. I am also worried that at some point my child might see this or it get recorded on his/her file. I will be devastated if they were to find out this way. 

Sorry for such a long winded post but has anyone got experience of this or had DE recorded on their pregnancy file and its been ok?


----------



## bundles

Hi Pinkie 

How bloody awful of them. What a stupid officious woman. I would be absolutely fuming. As far as I'm aware you have every right to ask for it to be removed if you told her not to put it on there in the first place. Why not ask one of our Lawyers here:

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=216.0

I would ring PALS although in my dealings with them, I'm not really sure how effective they actually are. You could ask them what your route of complaint would be if you went directly other than through PALS. Sonographer's Departmental manager ? Hospital Chief Executive ? Trust ? Although I wouldn't expect them to understand about DE it may be worth contacting the Citizens Advice Bureaux regarding how to make a complaint about your treatment - you could say that you wanted some confidential info kept off your file & keep it vague.

Good luck xx


----------



## Pinkie3

Thank you bundles, I have asked the lawyer on here and I have also emailed PALS, hopefully I will start getting somewhere. 

Ladies, be careful who you mention this to if you don't want it on your record. X


----------



## loudlikelove

The important thing is that no one else can have access to your medical information other than you so don't feel this is gonna end up letting the cat out of the bag so to speak. 

It is a sentence, albeit hurtful to you, that will not even get read again without attention being brought to it. 

Do not let this stress you or the baby out. If you end up going down a legal route, this then puts the information in a more public domain.


----------



## Me Myself and I

Maybe a stupid question, but how do I find the private board?


----------



## Coolish

Bundles is spot on with hat she has said. I would be furious too. I was asked at the 12 week scan if it was DE and put down a vague donor age of 30 but insisted it wasn;t on any records and as far as I could see it was never on anything. I've managed IT departments and it's not their decision - it's probably too difficult for someone to remove..

Please don't let it upset you anymore and try not to worry - the records are private x


----------



## Orchid-1

Pinkie - I'd be furious too. So sorry hun.  

PALS is useless and so is the NHS complaints system because it just makes the issue huge. And the IVF process is stressful enough without being part of a bureaucratic nightmare.

Could you let it die down for a a month or so and then say that the sonographer mistakenly put in DE when it should be OE? 
It would be her word against yours? I know that is a bit naughty....

Your lawyer could ask for it to be redacted. The system is so bureaucratic that if they get an official letter then that is the only time they sit up and take notice.


----------



## nevertoolate

Hi
From the previous conversations I was interested to know why they ask if it is donor eggs if ivf is on your file. I honestly don't understand why this would impact on treatment.


----------



## Orchid-1

Dreaming - I think it's so they can say an older OE is more at risk than younger DE.

Some people say it's their OE which was frozen when younger [when asked].

-both my DH's mum and mine had a child when they were 50. Both children grew into healthy adults. In their day IVF was not available.


----------



## Pinkie3

Thank you ladies, I really appreciate your advice on this. I kept my email very vague to PALS as bundles suggested. If I don't get a straight answer about the procedure to remove this information then I am going to take your advice and leave it as I am already concerned about the amount of attention I am bringing to it. I am removing it from my handheld notes with tippex (midwife told me to do that) and hopefully my 12 week notes won't need to be looked at again. 

Dreaming, as orchid mentioned I only told my sonographer at my nuchal scan, my donor was 13 years younger than me and they combined the scan, blood and age to calculate the risk, I wanted mine to be accurate so told the truth, the only place the donor details needed to be written was on the blood form but she ignored my request not to have it on file. 

I'll post an update when I have one X


----------



## Pinkie3

Hi ladies, I wanted to follow up with an update in case anyone comes across a similar problem in the future.

After emailing PALS I got a quick response, I spoke to helpful women who explained that she had got in touch with the head of sonographers at the hospital and he would be calling me to discuss. I had to give her vague details but she advised me not to tell her the full contents of what I wanted removed as she would have to make a note of it, which obviously defects the object. So I received a call from the head today where I explained the situation and he was very understanding, he called me back within half hour and told me it had been done. Basically we agreed that the words 'donor egg' would be removed and replaced with 'blood form' so it now reads 'blood form completed by sonographer at the time of scan' which I was more than happy with. From what I could gather they don't like to completely delete sentences but can re word them. I have tippex out these words on my own handheld notes and he says I can go to the hospital and request a reprint at anytime. 

I am so relieved that I finally got it sorted. Thanks for everyone's advice before and wishing everyone all the best X


----------



## bundles

That's great news Pinkie, well done you !! And well done PALS lady  

xx


----------



## Moragob

How wonderful to read of a success and so quickly too.  There's hope yet.  

Thanks for the update and good luck with the rest of your pregnancy


----------



## nevertoolate

Hi
As I got some blood tests from my gp there is Ivf on my record. When I went for a recent scan I seen a consultant afterwards who asked a lot of questions about my ivf treatment. I said it was oe and she commented on my age to basically let me know she did not believe me. I feel we have been through so much and situations like this are another challenge. I honestly don't feel obliged to record that info on my nhs record I feel it is private information. I am really pleased that you got your record changed.


----------



## Me Myself and I

Me said:


> Maybe a stupid question, but how do I find the private board?


Anyone?


----------



## maire2012

Me myself and I,
I have messaged and admin and asked to join but there has been no response, so Im wondering the same as you.

Maire2012


----------



## bundles

Marie, Me Myself & I has been given access previously. Not sure who you messaged but from your signature & posts, you appear to be OE so you would not be given access.


----------



## maire2012

Thank you Bundles,

So it is for people who already are confirmed donor egg recipients and not those starting down the donor egg route.I didnt realise it needed to be in my signature.

Thanks,

Maire.


----------



## bundles

Hi Marie,

It is for donor egg or sperm recipients. It is strictly moderated due to it's emotive issues and we have had problems on the open forum in the past with 'disagreements' !! The only way we can 'vet' people is by their length of time on the forum, their posting history & signature. People considering the donor route would normally post on the Donor Conception board where plenty of advice can be obtained.

Thank you for your understanding  

Bundles


----------



## maire2012

Could anyone answer a question on the counselling for donor egg recipients, the counselling appears focused on telling the child, is not telling taken into account by the counsellors?


Thanks,

Maire


----------



## Pinkie3

Marie, I haven't heard of counsellors encouraging 'not to tell' which is really frustrating as there should be support for both. I appreciate research has been done to back up 'telling' but what research has been done on the millions that are never told and live perfectly happy lives? I definitely think there needs to be support from both ways. I find the 'telling' camp are very opinionated and aggressive with their views and don't respect that people have different views from them, hence why there is only a private board for 'not telling'. 

Everyone has their reasons for what path they take and I think that needs to be taken into consideration. We never had counselling, for me my discussion with DH was more important than with a counsellor. At first DH and I had different views, I was actually in the favour of telling but after weighing up what the pros and cons were for us as a family I changed my mind. I think if you are really struggling with a decision, counselling may be the way forward. Someone once told me to not make a decision yet, it will be a number of years before you are faced with the situation of telling your child and you may feel completely different to how you do now when that time comes. At the moment we are not telling but my DH appreciates that I may change my mind in the future and if I do we will face that when the time comes. For now I am just enjoying every moment of my pregnancy and looking forward to welcoming my baby into the world and finally becoming a mother. 

Sorry that was a bit more than what you actually asked, I got carried away lol. 
Best of luck with everything x


----------



## maire2012

Pinkie,

Thank you, You see where I am coming from. I feel that the counselling is very geared towards telling and doesnt focus on supporting how to deal with not telling. It seems one sided.
Part of my issue is that we have had a negative response with regard to our treatment and losses and no support from one side of the family.We don,t share anything anymore. 

There is a stepchild in our family and a family member refers to him in a particular way and Im very conscious of  a bad reaction to disclosing any future child's origins to that side of the family.
Its unfortunate that there is aggression from others with regard to taking a hard line on telling versus those who do not.
Like you I believe each person has their reasons for their choices. But because others have been aggressive in their approach it means that stuff that I could have gone into more depth about, I can,t as the forum is public.
Your post was extremely helpful and big congratulations to you and your DH  on your pregnancy 
Best of luck with everything and thanks for understanding!

Maire


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## Coolish

One of the things I have found in going through the DE journey is that my views and feeling have changed along the way. When TTC I was very much in the camp of telling the child and we even mentioned to a couple of friends that we were doing DE. Now I feel much more in the not telling camp. Some of it is because I don't want people to think of my DD as 'different' and not 'mine' and have her labelled in a certain way and possibly treat her differently. Another reason is because I don't think of her with a 'DE' label - she's my little girl and not some category.

This open forum is still a really good place to explore your thoughts and ask questions and share frustrations.


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## Pinkie3

Maire, I am sorry to hear you've had a negative response from your in laws but I hear what you are saying. Although mine have been supportive, they are from a different generation and DH thinks this is one thing they wouldn't be able to get their heads around. It's like anything, unless you have ever been in this situation you don't understand. Therefore that was one of the main reasons for not telling, it was decided that we either tell both sets of families or none to keep it fair. If we decide to tell our child later in life then it will be his/her decision to tell. I also agree with the tag, that was another one of the reasons, I don't want the child to be looked at any differently throughout life and have this tag permanently attached to them. No one ever asks or speaks about origins to a natural pregnancy so why does this need to come up? Someone mentioned genetics and medical history etc but my donor was genetically tested and I know more about her family history than I do my own. For me it would only leave unanswered questions because we had DE in Greece where it is anonymous so we will never know anymore than what we already do. When I was undecided it was more for the reason that I felt like I was going to carry a secret with me everyday and that was the only reason I was panicking but now I am pregnant that feeling has gone. 

I haven't joined the private thread and I am sure people will answer any questions you have on here. There is a strict policy now that any aggression or not fit messages will be reported and removed (see the front page). I hope you get the support you are looking for and are able to move forward with a cycle and a decision that you are happy with X 

Cooljules, congrats on your little girl. I completely agree, I haven't given birth yet but this is my baby and always will be X


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## maire2012

Pinkie,

You are correct, its the labelling and the implications of somehow being different.Its true no one would get into the origins of a natural pregnancy but for some reason ivf and donor egg/sperm seems to open up a door for controversy and volunteering unhelpful opinions.
Im very glad to hear that your in laws are supportive  but I completely get where your husband is coming from, it can be a difficult topic to explain to a different generation with a different view on life. I also think you are raising a valid point about the future.
Its good to get your views and Im glad to hear that you are happy.

Maire.


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## Pinkie3

Tigger, I am so sorry to hear about the DE cycle failure. I can't believe none of the embryos were suitable for transfer. Going for DE finally gives you hope again and for this to happen must have been devastating. Are they not giving you any compensation for this?  

I have not been in your situation but I did go abroad for our DE cycle and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. They were pretty amazing. Yes the EU laws are different and the donor remains anonymous but this shouldn't have to change your decision in telling your child if this is your wish. You are provided with information on the donor, height, weight, eye and hair colour, blood type, interest, occupation etc but it just means that your child will not have the option of contacting this person when they turn 18. 

I did change my mind from telling to not telling but I was still trying to come to terms with accepting we needed to use DE and my DH had some very valued points with regards to our families and our situation. For me, I switch off from it, my goal was to get pregnant first and if/when that happened I would deal with the DE situation at a later date, if that was needed. 

Good luck with your next steps and I hope everything works out for you. If you are looking for a clinic abroad I can highly recommend the one I used. Newlife clinic in Thessaloniki, Greece. It may also be worth attending the fertility show that is on in a couple of weeks, I know Newlife will be there, as well as a lot of other clinics overseas.


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## LILLYS778

Hi, hoping to ask a few questions. We have just had another IVF failure using OE. We are financially and emotionally exhausted and have started to talk about the idea of using a donor embryo from the clinic in Czech republic that we have just visited. We know we would love the child without issue. DH has said he would be happy to pursue this but only with the absolute agreement that we would never tell a sole including the child. I can't decide how i feel about this and worry it would come to light eventually and could cause problems in the future. As it is a clinic abroad the donors would be anonymous so telling may leave more questions than answers. I noticed a lot of people on this thread have DE or DS and not DD. Does anyone have any advice x


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## TiggerBounces

We've just been told our UK based donor is not suitable (After 6 weeks of tests) and so we are now back wondering about going to Spain.  We had a failed UK DE cycle (no embryos survived) in October and have been on the waitlist and pursuing using DE since September 2015, after a year of failed IVF OE and 1 ectopic. Im not getting any younger and now speed and money are a big issue.
Can anyone point me to any threads, posts, or articles that talk about making the switch from non-anon to anon? And ultimately being at peace with that final decision.
Thank you.x


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## Blondie71

Tiggerbounces there are lots who have made the switch, post on the general donor board as lots don't look here anymore as there is a secret thread for not telling now that you need to apply to access through moderators, just not sure you have to already be pg or given birth and be absolutely committed to not telling in order to join 😕
However do post on general threads as know you'll get a response there x


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## OliviaFL

Is there another more active thread regarding not telling?


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## looby1005

I've been looking for one too Olivia, I'm still undecided so could do with an open thread xx


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## Josefine

i am wondering the same, is there any active thread about not telling?


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## bundles

Ladies this is the active thread, it's just not very active !! If you start posting, ladies who have already posted on here will pop back, plus it will keep it visible on the recent threads board.


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## Josefine

Yes you are right. I can begin. 

Everything you read is positive to tell the child, and that scares me, but I don´t want to tell. But is it like having a big lie? I don´t want to be a liar, honesty is important, and to tell is the right thing everyone says so if you google or talk to people about it. Who decides that and why is it so important to know/tell? the child?

I have seen many posts on internet where donors calls the child "my donor child" that is so weird! And some donors trying to find the child One of them called the child "her son" and searched after him!   

Is it not enough to tell the child that it is from ivf? Does the child really need to know more than that?


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## Tinseltown

We're not doing DE yet – but if we did, we MAY tell the child, but no one else. Not family, nor friends. The reason?

I grew up being raised by my mom and my stepdad (bio dad died when I was very young). Of course, I knew my stepdad wasn't my bio dad as I was just old enough (although he himself sometimes forgot), but most of the time, I wished nobody else knew and that I didn't have to explain to people he wasn't my bio dad. To be honest, everyone from uni onwards thinks he's my bio dad and I prefer to keep it that way. I mean... seriously... what's the point?!? It's not like I want my friends to judge me based on my DNA.

I think if parents do tell the DE child the truth, then you should only tell them... and they should decide whether other people should know or not. Because if you do tell others about this, and it turns out the child would prefer others not to know, you can't really take it back, can you?!?



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## Josefine

The thing is that we don´t want to tell mainly because of the family (long story), but how can you tell the child to not tell everybody, you force the child to keep a secret? Some children just do as someone of you mentioned in affect, like if you get divorced snd maybe you risk that your ex will tell... 

This is not easy! I want to tell sometimes just because I don´t like keepings secrets but sometimes I don´t want to tell because of many reasons, some om them bare because of family and that I see the child as mine and honestly maybe I am en egoist but I don´t want the child to look after the donor. 

I am considering to talk with a psychologist and see if I can come to a decision that is right for me.


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## Tinseltown

To be honest – we don't have family or friends any child could upset with such news. We're doing our second round of IVF now and our close family don't want to know anything about it (although in-laws are paying for a substantial part of it), because they think it's a private matter just between me and my husband. 

And if we had friends who'd get upset by a withheld secret, we would seriously wonder why we would keep such friends, considering it has nothing whatsoever to do with them. My husband and I are sort of allergic to people who think they need to know everything about our life. We just don't have friends like that. See, we don't even see our friends every day (or even once a week). If we're lucky, we see our closest friends once a quarter (more likely, twice a year) — we don't have much time to socialise due to our jobs and our friends being scattered throughout the country. It's awkward to tell people you don't meet often about IVF, let alone any potential DE treatment. And even if they knew due to a child unwittingly telling them, they'd just shrug it off. We have zero friends in the area we live in, which apparently consists of loads of ex-Londoners/commuters who'd rather be left alone. That's fine with us.  

Whether an ex-partner may say anything or not... that's all about choosing the right partner in the first place and hoping that any split would be amicable. My other half always said that if we ever split up, he'd want to do so amicably, as he wouldn't want lawyers to make money out of our misery.


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## Josefine

Then you are lucky, we have my inlaws, especially his mother that we really will do anything to so she would not know. 
And we don´t want the child to feel like an outsider from family and friends, all children don´t want to be "special" and you never know how the rest of family will be with the child if they knew, we want our child to be as any child and not feel outside or alone, we want to give the child the chance to feel loved and as one of the family. I was dating a man who was from sperm donor and he always felt that he didn't´t belong in the family (grandmother and so on) and that made him so depressed later on in life. He wished he never knew.  

Oh sorry my English is not so good (I am from Sweden) so can´t explain so good what I mean.


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## nevertoolate

Hi Josefine,
Thank you for views on this which I totally agree with. Please be aware that people on this forum have strong views on this subject and the donor conception network promotes telling. When newcomers to this subject are directed to seek out that organisation that should be made clear. My personal view is like you I just want my child to have as normal an upbringing as any other child. I started my journey planning on telling and then came to my own conclusion that it would be best for my family not to tell. i don't feel I owe the world an explanation of my child's heritage. Anyone who gets pregnant without donor ivf does not have to share any info on the circumstances of their child's conception or birth so why should I?its nobody else's business. Why would I put my child through that. Children and indeed adults can be cruel and I just want my child to feel relaxed and have a happy childhood.


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## Josefine

dreamingofBFP Thank you for writing that, as I wrote earlier I am not so good in English so thank you for writing this, that was exactly what I tried to write. I wish it was a forum where only not tellers can write in. I know that this is a sensitive subject, and I feel that it is hard to talk more "free" here.   I wish I could talk more openly with people that understand how I feel and think about this subject.


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## nevertoolate

Hi
There is a specific non telling thread which has been created which you can join. I think you just need to contact the admin for this forum to join up.  I wish you all the best with your journey x


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## Josefine

Oh is it? I will write to admin right away.  Thank you for your help and I also wish you the best with your journey.


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## nevertoolate

I have had a great deal of support and kindness from this forum and am happy to pay that back by supporting you personally if you want to private message me anytime to talk as I am further down the line on this amazing journey. Xx


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## Tinseltown

I completely understand that, Josefine!

In a way, the way your friend felt is how I felt about my stepdad's wider family (his cousins — whom I saw twice a decade or so) which sort of helped me form my view.

I think most of the 'you must tell your child' view comes from experiences of those who maybe didn't experience a happy childhood/great upbringing? I for one can't see the point of being miserable finding out you were donor conceived late in life when you had a great upbringing with more love and opportunities than most normally conceived children had. You must be bloody selfish to think like that. I've read a lot of comments by women (they were women's forums) saying something along the lines of 'I would go mental, if my parents didn't tell me about my genetic information'.

Seriously?

Whoever thinks like that has problems that probably has nothing to do with donor conception. A few decades ago, the knowledge of DNA did not exist. And a significant proportion of the population do not have the parentage they think they have — donor conceived or not.


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## Sassy-lassy

Just popping in to add a bit of support to those who don't want to tell.  It's highly unfashionable these days to espouse non-telling, and as Dreaming says, the DCN promotes telling to the exclusion of all other options...  It is irritating - and hugely judgemental of - people such as myself and OH, who can't tell for religious and cultural reasons.

Anyway, I think that what's happening is increasingly, non-tellers are being driven underground, rather than face the censure of popular opinion.  

We are still here.  We are however, just getting on with our lives and our little ones, and trying to move on from the minutiae of details surrounding their conception.      

Best wishes to you all!  

Sassy xxx


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## Twinkletoes42

Dear ladies 

I hope you don't mind me joining this thread . I have to say it's such a relief to actually read people's opinions that think "not telling" is ok too. I am undergoing DE treatment in August and this is just my personal issue but the move from OE to DE has been a tough enough decision as it is . I can't help feeling that if I were lucky enough to get pregnant with DE I don't want to spoil things worrying about how to break the news to the child and what age is that appropriate . OE natural pregnancy - the mothers don't face those dilemmmas . 

I respect everyone's opinion and it's good the donor conception network is there for support and some of their stories have made me feel better but nevertheless what I struggle with is the thought of sitting a 2 year old on my lap reading them a story about the lady and a rainbow and the kind lady abroad who gave her egg .... 

It makes me sad , I want any child I have to not have to be exposed to this. I've felt very guilty about my desire not to tell any child I may conceive of their origins . 

I'd rather "cross bridges when I come to them " rather than timetable appropriate ages and levels of disclosure to a child ...... 

Is it just me that feels this way? . Pregnancy motherhood should be a precious magical time ... I'm now considering not bowing to the pressure of the "you must tell" stance !


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## nevertoolate

When I was handed a DCN leaflet at my clinic, I resented that only one view was being discussed as if all the children not told were going to automatically grow up with emotional issues which is simply not true. I am angry that as women using donor eggs are made to feel bad for choosing not to tell as if we have not been through enough already.

I also find it difficult to relate to that one of the senior DCN figures did not use donor eggs themselves but donor sperm, but are at the forefront of writing various stories etc for their organisation encouraging people to tell at an extremely young age.I honestly believe for a woman using donor eggs and using donor sperm are two completely different subjects and different feelings around the options. I would rather have a completely neutral organisation being promoted by the clinics as for all we know they will be talking in years to come in regards to generally speaking changing stance from pro telling to not telling again as it was years ago. It really concerns me that people are only being given one view. Also I get the impression that the approach in the UK and US is somewhat different and I think there maybe more adults with issues about the fact they are from donors in the US.


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## Josefine

Hello ladies, I love your thoughts and comments on this, thank you! You are thinking as I am. I have been ashamed for having this kind of thoughts and feelings, you feel pressured to tell, but I know several people that wished they never knew as adults, people that have been told as children. I think this is a personal decision that only you can take, but pro tellers in a way force others to think as they do because it is the "only right thing to do" and to feel ashamed for wanting to go another way. But who are they to make such decisions for other people. I respect them and their decision and I think that they also should respect that all don´t think the same, we are individuals and have different preferences. The only one that can judge me is God! I will follow this path as it seemed some also does, I felt so alone in this decision. When you google everywhere it says that you must tell, that is the only way, and some even tells you to not have children if you don´t want to tell, that´s crazy!


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## looby1005

Hi ladies, I've been reading your posts the past few days but haven't had chance to reply, I'm still in 2 minds whether to tell the child or not, but I'm definitely swaying to not, we have done deivf abroad (which unfortunately has just ended with a missed miscarriage), I don't see the point of telling the child as there is no way of them finding the donor with them bring anonymous. I read something on another forums that has really stuck with me, the lady said; if you borrow an egg from your neighbour to bake a cake is the cake theres?, which is all we have done, some kind lady had given us some eggs. We've supported the embryo to grow and taken care of it like any mother, and I know we will love them whether the egg was ours or not, our blood and body have supported it, I honestly think If the child is loved and feels like they belong they will never question where they came from because they will know you are there mum. I think it is so wrong to judge and be told you must tell them, especially if the donor is anonymous, (sorry I've said that!). Hope I've not rambled too much xx


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## Twinkletoes42

Louby, Josefina dreaming of BFP

I totally agree with all your comments , whilst I have concerns about not telling they are nothing compared to the pro telling option. I believe a child needs to be loved, nurtured and secure. Everytime I think about the telling approach it makes me feel sick . Even on the DCN network website they provide a story about a lady who had DE which resulted in a boy and girl . They were told of their origins . The boy took it in his stride the little girl took months to come to terms with it . Lots of emotional turmoil and upset . The little girl kept asking " so your not my "real" mum ". I thought that was horrendous. Allegedly their child psychologist says that child use the world "real" as they are trying to process something very difficult to comprehend and whilst it's not meant to offend their parents children speak very simply and may not realise the efeects of such words. 

I'm sorry non of the above made me feel any better in fact it's made me more resolute not to tell . I think the trauma of trying to understand that at 6-7 is horrendous and no amount of research , support story telling books etc will convince me of that. 
I know the pro telling group my say I'm being selfish , but how can wanting to protect your future child from hurt confusion and pain be selfish? 

Ladies I am so grateful I have found this thread and I wish you alll the best on your journeys 
Xxx


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## Twinkletoes42

Chrissy Lou 

I really relate to what your saying . I'm 43 and my two IVF treatments have failed one I needed a D and C op as there was no fetal heartbeat at 7 weeks I was devastated. I've resigned myself to the fact I'll have t go for DE but I know this sounds crazy but I can't help resenting the fact my partner can have his own genetic child . He says he's ok with not teliing but I'm not sure . We have discussed all this before I have DE treatment in August as I think it's important to iron these things out before treatment . I don't even know whether it'll work or not but I'm desperate to have a child and I know I'll love a DE child unconditionally. I just have this weird resentful anger in me that I can't seem to get over . I'm terrified of having counselling because if the counsellor starts on the you should tell lecture I swear to god I don't know how I'll react. 

I really feel for you ... I take some time , your little one is very young and you partner needs to understand how you feel . I said to my partner . If my eggs were ok and we needed to go for sperm donor . He said I wouldn't like it and that he was unsure whether he'd want to go through with treatment . Everytime get talk about DE I remind him of how he'd feel . I be really got to get to grips with this before August I just feel so angry and resentful and I hate feeling like this . 

I hope you are ok but make your point because it's always easier for the partner that can still have their own genetic child to find telling a suitable option 

Big hug xxxx


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## Tinseltown

It's looking more and more likely that we'll be going for DE treatment (already making arrangements). My question is: how do I get access to the secure thread?

Because we're very much leaning towards the 'no telling' camp.

To be honest, in addition to my experience growing up as a step child (parents weren't the problem... distant relatives were), the divisive political events of the last few years have shown me that we are FAR away from the 'inclusive' society I _thought_ we lived in years ago. And we don't know whether we'll always be living near a big cosmopolitan city, where people don't make a fuss about children being donor conceived (at least to your face). Considering that we'll be using an anonymous donor, I don't see the point of telling.

I also regrettably read YouTube comments of videos where people admitted they were a donor, and some of the comments were atrocious. You can ignore those comments and live in blissful ignorance, but these were unfiltered comments made by people that, I'd say, showed their true self. The comments told me that while I and a lot of people on this forum are fine with donor eggs... a large part (the majority even?!?) of the world's population just isn't ready for that yet. And I'm not quite sure I want myself or my child to play martyrs...


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## Twinkletoes42

Dear Tinseltown 

I feel the same way you do . I have private messaged bundles and asked if she will be add me to the private thread as I think she is one of the moderators of this site . 

X


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## Tinseltown

Thanks, *Twinkletoes42*.

I previously thought I might tell the child, but no one else. However, the more I think about it, the more I don't want to tell at all. It would be something just between DH and I. It is annoying me though that there are no other views shown anywhere other than the 'telling' camp. I think the research behind the 'telling' is quite biased. How many people are there in the world who were brought up by parents, who may not have been biologically theirs, but grew up happily not knowing - regardless of whether they were conceived through a donor or conceived naturally? Was research done on them? Likely not...


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## Twinkletoes42

Tinseltown 

Honestly I feel exactly the same as you .. I have looked at the donor conception network and none of the stories ale me feel comfortable .. I never want a child to say to me " so you're not my mummy " . It makes me feel sick . I also think ... my donor is anonymous so why would this info help the child ... I just don't see it ..

I'm adamant I'm not telling and so is my partner he can see how this upsets me 

Xxx


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## Twinkletoes42

Ladies 

I hope you don't mind me sharing the below article I read today .. The lady who wrote this sums up so eloquently how I feel . I'm moving on to DE and I know it's my only option however having read the below article it struck such a chord I thought I'd share it . 
Grieving the genetic link
I just watched George Cukor's 1944 gothic masterpiece Gaslight, starring the luminous Ingrid Bergman. She won that year's Best Actress Oscar for her taut, unnerving performance as a Victorian woman being driven slowly mad by...well, that would be telling.

A couple of months ago, we watched SciFi Channel's Earthsea, starring Bergman's daughter Isabella Rossellini. Regrettably -- because Ursula K. Le Guin's novel A Wizard of Earthsea and its sequels are so outstanding -- Rossellini's performance was the only memorable one in the miniseries. Perhaps that's why I thought of her as I watched her mother on screen. Film is a time-flummoxing media. Before my eyes was a mother, younger by years than the daughter I remembered from another film. I was struck by the echoes of the one in the other. Their voices, their eyes, that distinctive shape to the mouth....

It hit me hard, a hammer blow: I will never see in my donor egg child those echoes of myself. The genetic link is lost.

Grief, the experts tell us, comes from loss. Any sort of loss, though death is the most commonly discussed type. When I think of the grief I feel at not being able to have a genetic child, I also feel guilt. As if I should be so happy and grateful to have a child by any means, that I have no right to these feelings. As if, by feeling this grief, I label my donor egg baby as "not good enough." And so I thrust the grief away from me. I try not to own it.

Yet it is still here, like a piece of furniture I keep tripping over in this house of infertility. And, all experts in the field agree: A woman must "work through" her grief at the lost genetic link before she is ready to be a donor egg mother.

Madeline Feingold, a clinical psychologist with a specialty in reproductive medicine, offers this: "...couples must grieve so that the loss of their genetic child does not cast a shadow that negatively interferes with parenting and loving the child that will be their own" (Disclosing Origins: Children Born through Third Party Reproduction).

Oh, my God. I'm already a bad mother. One look at Ingrid Bergman and all my grief work is unraveled. I am crushed. Amputated. Something vital is gone, and can never be regained. But what is it? I can get neither my hands nor my head around it. I have to ask myself: What have I lost? Who died?

Many proponents of donor egg insist there is no loss, or none that matters. I will have the experience of pregnancy, that some call the "gestational link." I will give birth. I will breastfeed at 2 a.m. and hover anxiously over the crib while my baby sleeps, making sure that little chest rises and falls. I will churn through rolls and rolls of film, create silly Web sites devoted to my offspring, and someday join the homework and soccer-practice grind. I will be the only woman my little one knows as "Mom." I will love my child like a lioness, fiercely and without reserve. If I consider only the act and experience of motherhood, then I will have lost nothing by being a donor egg mother. Thank God.

Yet, for me, there is a loss. I have lost the ability to pass on my genes, and to mingle them equally with my husband's in the creation of our child. My body has failed to do its full duty in this process of conception. Because of that, what should be emotionally simple, even joyful, becomes complex and fraught with doubts and fears. I would not be human if I didn't wonder, "Will I bond with this child as I should? Will my child resent me for my choice?" And a whole host of other worries that I can come up with in the wee hours of the night. These are not the concerns of a mother who conceives with her own eggs, and the loss of that simplicity is grievous.

Recently, I found the article Infertility and Aftershocks, by Patricia Irwin Johnston. In it, she writes beautifully and sensitively of the impact of unresolved grief for the lost genetic link on the lives of adoptive parents and children. I hope Ms. Johnston would forgive me for quoting from her article and substituting "egg donation" for "adoption," because I believe the issues are the same:

"It's like this. Egg donation makes us parents, but it doesn't make us fertile. Much as we might wish differently, egg donation, despite giving us parenthood, cannot change the facts of those several other losses associated with infertility -- the loss of control over many intimate and practical aspects of our lives; the loss of genetic connection and immortality; the loss of the opportunity to create a new person who is the genetic and symbolic blend of love we share with our life's partner. . . . Egg donation can't give us these things that infertility took from us."

When I first realized what diminished ovarian reserve meant, there was black terror in knowing that when I die, I am extinct on this earth. Genetically, I am a dead branch. I will not continue. That reality scared me, deep in the gut. I am far from superb as a genetic specimen, and in my rational moments I know that I will leave my legacy in other, more important ways. But the loss is still felt.

It helped me to realize that it's a two-way street: We grieve that we will not pass on the traits we like about ourselves or our birth families, but we may feel a (guilty) sort of relief that we can avoid bequests such as alcoholism, depression, or--believe me, I've pondered this one--a genetic predisposition for early menopause. And "traits" are not all passed on genetically. Values, habits, mannerisms . . . all these come with family, and will be available for good or ill to my child.

Another element of the genetic loss is familial. I have a nephew who is the spitting image of his grandfather. That will never be, for my baby -- unless he looks like my husband's dad. My family is proudly Irish and has a 200-year history in one Southern city. It saddens me to think of taking my child there, or to Ireland itself, and having those places mean nothing to him. I ache at the thought that my child, no matter how much loved and welcomed by me and all my family, will be different than her cousins. I don't want that difference for her. I want her to merge into our family like a raindrop into a river and never worry or wonder about where she "comes from." That is simply not to be for my child. I feel as if I should take her in my arms right now and say, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry I could not give that to you."

It helps to realize that grieving a lost genetic link is not unique to donor egg mothers. Adoptive parents and children have struggled and made their peace with it for years. I have a friend whose husband was adopted, and he has none of the issues I fear will afflict my child. He looks on his place in his family as "adopted into the clan" in the Scottish sense: "...the chief of a clan would 'ingather' any stranger, of whatever family, who possessed suitable skills, maintained his allegiance and, if required, adopted the clan surname." Now, that's the right idea.

A last and somewhat ignoble loss is this one: It just wasn't supposed to happen this way. If in fact Change = Loss = Grief, then I have sustained a heavy loss: The idea of my life as it was supposed to be; as I expected it, dreamed of it, worked toward it. The hard part was supposed to be finding someone to be a father to my children; I never imagined that I would have to go to such unusual measures to have them in the first place. There's a not-very-grown-up person inside me who wants to be just like everybody else, with a mate and a cottage in the suburbs and 2.5 adorable children who may someday say to me after a tussle over curfew, "I hate you!" but who will never say, "You can't tell me what to do. You're not my mother." The woman who strove for that life will never achieve her goal, and I feel badly for her, even as I have to tell her, "Oh, grow up."

It occurs to me to measure my progress against the famed Five Stages of Grief. Am I still in denial, refusing to acknowlege my loss? No, I don't think so. How about anger; am I still asking "Why me!" or wailing "This isn't fair!" I must plead guilty on that one. I will probably be angry about my reproductive fate until love for my donor egg baby makes that feeling meaningless. Am I still striking bargains with God, promising to cure world hunger if he will only give me a baby? No. My miscarriages cured me of that one. If God were going to come through with a genetic child, surely it would have been one of those. My personal favorite -- depression, suffered while we mourn not just the loss but our dreams, hopes and plans -- still dogs me every day. Without it, I don't think I'd be writing this.

And so we come to acceptance, the state of finding comfort and healing from grief, and the ability to reframe the situation to see its positive aspects. Here I would have to say, "I'm getting there." The truth is, I will cycle through these stages of grief many times as my donor egg journey continues.

The one thing I cling to, that I read over and over again on one support board that I visit, is this: Once you have your baby, all the doubts and fears go away. Amen, wise sisters.


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## Tinseltown

Of course, it is sad to not have your own genetic child. And part of me does mourn the fact that DH and I may never have a child that carries both our genes. In fact, the other day I had a bit of a melt-down. We left it pretty late to start a family, chasing corporate careers over the years than worry about things like diapers. And suddenly, that day, a question popped up in my mind: "For what?"

I realised that whatever we worked for wasn't worth the sacrifice of never having your own biological children. But I'm pragmatic enough to know that what is done is done. We can't go back in time. Although DH does still hope that the same thing happens to us that happened to our friends: they couldn't conceive for years, then adopted a little girl and months after the adoption, my friend fell pregnant. By accident.

However, I believe that due to the experiences I have made growing up, I have also learned very early on that blood should *not* be thicker than water. That having a genetic link to some people does not mean a thing, really. I'm biologically related to some very selfish people I haven't seen for decades, and for reasons I will keep to myself, I probably have no interest in seeing again. When DH and I discussed the use of DE the other day, the fact that we have to trust the clinic with donor selection unnerved him a little. "How do we know they do really weed out total psychos?"  And I actually blurted out: "If you knew some of the people I'm related to... well, let's say I'd be happy for my kids to not share their genes."

The fact that I have a mixed ethnic background helps in a way. This means I look nothing like my mother. I don't look like her parents either or my cousins (some of whom do look alike). Talking about it... my mom does not look like her siblings either. In fact, they apparently used to tease her, when she was young, telling her she was a foundling, etc. as she didn't look like the others. Even if I had bio kids with DH, there's a big chance they wouldn't look like me either. I guess these experiences make it easier for me to accept DE treatment. But I am very aware that for many, the above is not the case.


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## nevertoolate

Hi
I have posted many times at my own anguish at being at the stage of using donor eggs. I feel I am much closer to peace about this now I have my little boy. I feel very sad at the loss of genetics as I think it would have been nice to see myself reflected in the face of my little boy but to be honest I really do feel will live on through him. 

The true legacy will be him being an amazing human being thanks to all the love and care and kindness I am showering upon him. He will never feel I have not done my very best for him and that is more than my genetic parents ever bothered doing for me. That article quote brings up lots of interesting points but that would be my response to the being extinct comment. 

I see so many amazing women on here who wish they had our issues as they are still trying to fall pregnant using donor eggs. My little boy is so beautiful he is his own little person but I will have a very important impact on his life. I am going to make sure he feels secure and happy emotionally, socially financially and any other way I can. He will always know he is loved. This is light years to what I have experienced so I am not giving myself any guilt trip over using a donor egg to get pregnant.


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## Twinkletoes42

Tinseltown/ dreaming of BFP

Thank you for your responses you are both clearly very strong ladies , I just hope I can get to a point you two are at ... I guess I'm just having a wobble. I'm still trying to come to terms with things having had a miscarriage ) D & C last week. I'm trying to find ways of moving on through DE it's just tougher than I imagined. I did for treatment in August so I really have to get my head round things before then . So thank you for your comments and support . I'm going to try counselling as I think I need it . 

Once again 

Thank you x


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## Josefine

hello ladies, if feel blessed today. After consultation with the clinic, reading here, talking with my husband we have decided to not tell and it feels 100% right for us. And that feeling/decision makes me/us feel so much lighter in the spirit. To tell just is not the right way for us, not matter what others think about that.


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## Twinkletoes42

Josefine 

I feel the same way you do .. I think not telling will also help me come to terms with things. We have decided 100% not to tell and I have to say I feel more comfortable with this approach 

Xx


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## Josefine

Twinkletoes Me too, it was a hard decision, but mostly because of what people thinks about it. Just follow your heart and don´t listen to much about others opinions.


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## bundles

Ladies  

Sorry but I have chicken pox in the house    so will answer PM's as soon as I can. Please bear with me !!

Bundles xx


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## Twinkletoes42

Hi Bundles 
I hope the outbreak of chicken pox passes soon !!! 
😷😷😷😷😷. 
Take care 

Xx


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## Tinseltown

For those who don't want to tell... do you sometimes get nervous by those AncestryDNA ads on the telly? I absolutely hate it... always wonder 'what if'...


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## Me Myself and I

Tinseltown I do  fear that even though my los donor was anonymous that this type of thing could one day lead to my lo tracing the donor and that open all sorts of heartache and likewise half siblings.  Maybe selfish of me.....


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## Josefine

hello ladies, where do I read information about not telling, any good links on the web? When I google all I found is how not good that is and the rest is about how to tell, and to tell is the only way. any good information about not telling? Articles, blog posts and so on?


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## nevertoolate

It's very pro telling based. I think on this subject I think this site is your best friend. Hope you a re doing well x


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## Josefine

yeah you are right. I just feel so bad when googling about it, but I know my truth and no one can push me at any direction. This is right for me and my husband.


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## nevertoolate

I think a lot of this is based on children mainly USA based who have had really bad childhoods. It not down to donor but the dynamics with them and their parents so a lot of anguish. There is nothing about the people with happy contented childhoods as the parents probably would not bother posting anything. When my little boy looks at me we have a very very strong bond which has nothing to do with genetics. I am his mother, I deserve to be as I have fought so hard for him. 
I do worry about those awful adds aswell but who in their right mind wants to send their DNA to a random commercial company so they can have it on file and maybe send it on elsewhere! Crazy... I hope my boy will realise that when it comes up


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## Tinseltown

The problem with the "telling" push is that I don't think it's really well backed up research at all. They naturally  can only research donor children who have either been told or who have found out some way or another.

They can't possibly research donor children who have never been told and are just happy with their lives.


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## nevertoolate

What I wonder is if you have had a very loving and contented childhood would you start searching? I think the people search when they have felt unloved or not gel within the family. This can happen all the time with genetic children and their parents. There is only one voice of telling out there. Honestly, personally for me the thought of trying to explain to a small child about donor eggs/ sperm and them them going through school etc with that info is such a lot of pressure for a small child. We constantly see situations of bullying online etc and we are expected to encourage our small children to deal within a sometimes very judgemental world with that. I have no intention of having my child as an experiment for an organisation setup by people with their own personal agenda.


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## looby1005

I just wish now id not told my mum and sister so that no one knows, I worry the child will resent me for not telling them, don't want them to feel its a big secret, but then I also think it's not like they were given up by their biological mum, a very kind lady donated her eggs for us to have a child of our own, that we want so much and will love unconditionally. Its so hard when you look on line and it all says you must tell x


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## nevertoolate

I know how you feel and i felt that at the start of my journey but I have really analysed so many views and opinions until I could not do anymore and my conclusion for me is that number one an adult can handle that info better than a small child. I honestly also feel for a woman there is a massive difference in how you feel between using donor eggs/ sperm or both. One of the people involved in the dcn are lecturing about telling and donor eggs and she has used her own eggs for her own pregnancies. I will not be given a guilt trip from someone who has not even gone through the same journey as me. Also the telling seem to have more of a view that our children should be told about the donor as if the donating ladies handed us one of their babies not an egg/ eggs. 
Society will change its attitude as more and more women start having children later from different circumstances, because this is at the start we are the ones dealing with the kickback but I believe it will improve. That child you carry IS yours and if they find out about the treatment in the future I hope he will see just how much heart wrenching nightmare ivf journey I took to get him here.


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## looby1005

Thats how I feel dreamingofBFP, it's so easy for people who have not had to go through this to judge and have opinions, our child is loved by 2 parents who want them more then anything from second we see that embryo  x


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## nevertoolate

we gave birth to this baby. it seems society sees a woman using donor eggs as the last taboo. it appears to be socially acceptable to use donor sperm to get pregnant but the minute you put donor eggs in the mix, then all hell breaks loose. as i said before i see this as the ultimate in sisterhood, each of us helping each other. i helped my donor to have her family by contributing to her treatment. she offered me some of her eggs so i could try for my own baby. yes and i am eternally grateful to her that she gave me some eggs but after that my body took over by helping that embryo grow and survive and give birth to that baby. is that not worth something in its own right ? surely that is the most important part of it all,,,,
if the very worst comes to the worst and this comes out in the future, i will sit my son down and explain to him my personal journey which took me to this point. i hope i will have shown him so much love and care and respect as my child that he will always know i am his mother, nobody else.


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## Twinkletoes42

Josefine, looby, dreaming of BFP and Tinseltown, 

I agree with your comments we are going for donor treatment soon embryo transfer will be in August but first trip to clinic abroad is mid June . I've researched the telling side of things and I have to say none of the stories make me feel reassured . We have decided there's no way we are telling . For one I don't want to tell a child information they cannot do anything with . ... what I mean by that is ... they donor is anonymous ( I want it that way) . Therefore why tell them something that created more issues , confusion and unanswered questions . 

I hate the way "non tellers " are often judged .... or that "telling" is seen to be the only way forward .... how about letting parents decide for themselves and in the meantime let them get on with providing a loving home and enjoying parenthood as opposed to pushing values etc onto others .. 

I'm so pleased I've found this forum and particularly this thread !!!


Xx


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## nevertoolate

it is the most intimate and one of the most important things you will go through in your life so why would i let complete strangers dictate how i deal with this with my child. i just really do resent that the telling organisation dcn is being promoted at clinics and couples and singles new to this whole world as i was are automatically being encouraged to join this group without getting other sides of this which is unfair.
i have gone through enough to get here already, i am now deciding that my child will have a very happy childhood and secure that i am his mummy (which i am and the donor would not have it any other way) despite outside opinions...!!!
best of luck with your treatment. xx


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## looby1005

I feel like I need a like button for your posts, we need these forums to reasure us that we are doing the right thing and there is nothing wrong with not telling xx


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## nevertoolate

thank you, being put in a situation where i need to use donor eggs i found it very tough. everything i took for granted went out the window. i still feel sad but when my little boy smiles at me every time i pick him up i know he loves me and is thriving with all the love and care i put into him. for some organisation to be telling me i need to be talking to my infant about donors is for me odd. he is my family and i am his. that is all that matters. he is the baby i was destined to have.


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## Tinseltown

We will be going for DE treatment around November (trying to get myself as healthy as possible first). First appointments are scheduled in September. I was always very worried about whether the baby would feel like mine and whether other people might be able to tell if the baby didn't look that much like me. However, after having spent some time looking after DH's niece, I have zero worries about that now. Said niece is around 3 and unlike me (mixed ethnic background) is blonde and blue-eyed. People thought I was the mummy!!!

We are DEFINITELY in the no-telling camp. I just don't see the point. I have seen too many uneducated Youtube video comments about people thinking that donors are giving their babies away, etc. and being totally against it. They don't get that an egg is a cell. Nothing else. In years to come, they will probably be able to create babies from other cells in your body! 

Also, we live in such a divided society right now, I don't think it takes much to make people bully others who are 'different'.


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## Twinkletoes42

Tinseltown 

My heart goes out to you as I'm in the same situation. My partner and I go to Russia this weekend for him to provide the sperm sample ... embryo transfer is scheduled for August. I know I should be happy things are progressing but I feel like the bystander... that my role doesn't count ... I'm the random incubator... I really hope I feel differently soon but it's all a bit overwhelming at the moment .. I feel guilty I'm not elated I should be happy my partner is going to have his genetic child I just feel like I'm on the sidelines and I'm watching things unfold... I truly hope my feelings change soon as I know my negative thoughts aren't healthy I just can't help feeling this way xxxx


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## bundles

Tinsel & Twinkle 

I can assure you that when you are carrying that precious bundle inside you, your feelings will change. You will feel each flutter turn into a wriggle and then a kick !! You will wonder at what you are growing & you will cry the moment you hear YOUR baby cry as it enters this world, & you will fall in love the moment they lay them on you. You will grow them, nourish them & then feed them. Your heart will break when they feel pain, you will give them the food from your plate and you will stare at them for hours.
Trust me, you will love them ! And if you're like me, given a time machine to go back & use my OE, I wouldn't because I couldn't imagine my life without these exact children  

Bundles x


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## Sassy-lassy

Just wanted to second Bundles last post.  To start with, I was ambivalent about the use of DE and tbh - and this is where I differed from Bundles - didn't really bond with the baby growing inside me.  My body loathed being pregnant, which meant I was ill for the while 8 months I carried it and due to previous losses, think that subconsciously, I distanced myself.  That all changed when she was born, and the fierceness with which I love my beautiful, darling DE child knocked me sideways.  I didn't think it was possible to love this much.  And if you gave me the chance to backtrack and swap her for a child with my own genetics, I wouldn't even want to finish the conversation.


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## Twinkletoes42

Bundles / sassy lassy

Thank you for your lovely messages , they give me hope things will work out . We are off to Russia tomorrow first part of the journey , I praying things work .. embryo transfer planned for august after genetic testing . 
I had a D&C in May as on my last OE ivf cycle no heartbeat was found at 7.5 weeks 😢. I've not had a period since the D&C op ... I'm hoping it arrives this weekend as I have to start the pill soon and start planning endometrium support end of July ready for transfer in August ..... 

Well ladies I'll keep you posted thanks for keeping me sane , your posts have really helped more than you know 

Xxx


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## Tick

I've just caught up with the thread after a while, and I was pleased to see activity on this one again.  I am, in the end, in the telling camp, for various, mainly practical, reasons.  However, I therefore wanted all the non-tellers to know that there are people from the telling camp who absolutely fully support your choice not to tell. It is a decision most people never have to make, and sometimes it isn't easy, but the choice is yours.  Please don't get upset by the opinions that come through loudest - as there are ones here that provide you support and hopefully work for you.  Looby1005 - please don't doubt yourself, there is nothing wrong with not telling!

And to add another voice to Bundles & Sassy Lassy: The start up was slightly different - I was absolutely fine with the decision to go with DE, as by that stage it was obvious that was my only way to have a child.  But I hated the pregnancies.  I was ill the whole time each time.  But I didn't distance myself.  Being sick all day certainly made me feel involved in the process.  And now I have two wonderful children and I don't even think about him being a DE child when I look at my son.  I just think he is my son.  And ditto for my daughter.  And I also would not swap either of them for an OE child as they are my children just as they are.  And although my son may not look like me - he actually takes after his dad - in character he is totally me.  

Good luck to all going for treatment!


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## Twinkletoes42

Tick

Thank you for your post I hope my DE cycle is successful and it's nice to read others thoughts 

Thank you 
Xx


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## deblovescats

Hi ladies
It really is a difficult decision to go for DE and I think it is entirely our decision to tell or not to tell, and no one should be able to make us feel bad about whatever we do. I agree with bundles and sassy - it is us who grow our babies, and they are our babies and no one else's. The donor gives us a few cells, it is our bodies who nurture these little ones and no one else. I totally agree about the ignorant comments on social media and the papers etc - about giving away babies. I actually loved being pregnant and would happily do it again - thankfully I didn't suffer with any problems except morning sickness, but I am now fitter and thinner than before I became pregnant. I would not swap my little ones for any other - they would not be them if they were not from DE. It was my chance to become pregnant and I took it. I have never regretted it. I had misgivings initially when pregnant with DS about DE, but it soon resolved. But with my second pregnancy, I was ok with it from the start because I knew how gorgeous my baby would be as I already had her brother! When my baby daughter gazes up at me, satiated with my milk, I know I'm her mum and she loves me, she doesn't care about the DE. When my son cuddles me and gives me a smile, my heart melts. I'm totally in love with them.
I am in two minds about telling or not telling. Sometimes I think one way, sometimes the other. I am trying to weigh it all up. As I'm single, people know about the sperm donor aspect but only my sister knows about the DE, and that is only because we've had lots of disagreements. She always wanted a baby, but couldn't go ahead due to her job. She resents me having mine. She always said that she would be able to have a baby with OE despite her age as we were related and I had, so in the end I had to put her straight otherwise she would have been labouring under a misapprehension.


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## moneybunny

Hello M'ladies, Got my BPF this morning!
first time IVF DE.

I'm on the no telling camp. i don't need the hassle from the outside world/family etc. makes everything much simpler for them as well as for me.
so now i am on a mission to find out FACTS.
My question: which situations would be compromising for this decision?

for example - i know that when time comes for the down-syndrome test (is it calledharmony test??) - 
i will say this conception was made from my own 45 year old eggs, 
the assessment would therefore not be in my favor and incorrect - (Because it is actually an egg  from a 22 year old.)

Or if the child has a genetic condition that might need my own genetic examination - things could get uncomfortably spooky.

So besides that, what are other possible situations that may compromise my not-telling decision?


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## moneybunny

hmm...this thread seems so quiet...

so anyway, i am reading now about the Harmony test and realize that if you dont tell the doctor about the DE, the results of the test may be invalid.
one work around i can think about is just going abroad (Czech Republic perhaps?) and do the test privately there, 
I would then disclose the DE fact, but it wont go into any of my medical records. should cost around 600 dollars or so.

anyone went through this? or any advice?


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## nevertoolate

Hi
Even though it is good to hear positive feedback from a person planning to tell. I ask mindful that this forum was setup as a safe space for non telling as there was so much aggressive opinions towards non tellers. I hope this forum remains that safe space.


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## Pinkie3

Moneybunny , congratulations on your bfp wonderful news.

In regards to the harmony test I recommend getting it done privately, all information is confidential and will not appear on any of your records. If you have the downs tests on the NHS at your 12 week scan don't tell anyone, just write the DE info on the blood form, its only the blood tests that they need to know about this. When I received the results by letter the donor wasn't mentioned. 

So far I can't think of any other situations that will compromise you not telling. I have told a few health professionals in confidence (they wrote nothing on file at my request) only because of some tests my little one was having and I wanted to know if DE made any difference, each time I have been told No! 
I hope that helps and good luck with everything x


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## Blondie71

No dreamingofbfp you're thinking of the private thread that moderators have to approve you for and this thread is for people to explore balanced opinions in a respectful non judgemental manner as lots of people are in a quandary, I personally would hate either side to be silenced as I have learnt tolerance myself from seeing different circumstances and opinions 😉


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## Blondie71

Moneybunny in response to your question if something was discovered down the line and genetics testing was required you may need to disclose if dna comparisons were needed but that's only likely scenario and of course don't know how advanced future technology will take us but really I wouldn't let any of that stand in your way, and in the unlikely event they do find out I'm certain they will know how very wanted they were and what lengths you went to for them ❤


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## moneybunny

great! thanks for the replies girls!

had my first ultra sound today (14 days after transfer, isn't that real early??)
and we saw one embryo. well more like a black dot.
The other one (i had 2 embies transfered)  - didn't show his face.
Think there's any chance it will??


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## moneybunny

So update - had Ultrasound today, the second embryo re-appeared out of the blue!!
so now i got me twins. not sure if i'm happy or really really really scared....

First i want to say that i have carefully read the ENTIRE thread from page 1 - and i still dont get the Harmony test...
Is it "safe" for a non teller or not? 
My health insurance would pay for the test but i do not want any medical worker to know it's DE. 
not even my lovely Gynecologist. 
as far as i am concerned - it shouldnt appear on ANY form.

So while some members here wrote the harmony test doesn't look at genetics
, one Member (Fox Gloves i believe) wrote this:

"...Just for others reading this thread, this wasn't the case for me. I had a harmony test and didn't disclose that I had used DE (when asked I stated I had used OE) and my test came back as failed. I spoke to the senior lab technician and she explained that DNA was found in my blood which was not mine and was not my babies..."

So yea, doing it privetly would be the best but its going to cost at lease 600 Euros,

so i would like to see if there is a way to avoid that payment AND keep my non telling nobody policy.

So my question - is there anyone here who here had/has twins and did not tell ANYONE?
If so - how did you pull through the tests? (Harmony and the Amnio?)


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## Me Myself and I

Your only real option is to pay privately and admit the de. Then not include the results in your folder. But you'll presumably have to prove your identity /address for payment etc. So will never be "totally anonymous " iykwim? 

In real terms even if you told a private practitioner they cannot share that information without your consent.  So you have to decide what's more important re the test - no financial outlay or sharing with the test provider. 

Fwiw I know someone who thought their insurance would cover but it didn't as it was counted beyond the required testing so check your policy for clarification.


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## Sassy-lassy

Hi MoneyBunny - I have exactly the same experience as the other lady (FoxGlove) and indeed, think I may have written about it on here. I developed a soft indicator for downs at around 25 weeks, and had the Harmony test then.  I had it done privately as the only NHS option was amniocentesis, which I did not want because it was invasive and didn't want to take the risk.  I did not disclose that I'd used DE with the first test and it came back as inconclusive which cause my stress level to hit the roof.  Saw Professor N. at the Centre for Fetal Medicine and he scanned me, at which point we did disclose DE.  The DE makes a huge difference, which I did not realise, even though I had read up about it before I took the test and thought we could avoid disclosing.  So, the upshot is... if you want it done (and we needed it) get it done privately and stress you do not want the results sent/disclosed to anyone else.  DON'T get it done on the NHS, even if it is offered, because for a reliable result, you do have to disclose and then the cat's out of the bag as far as your records are concerned.


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## moneybunny

Thanks Sassy-Lassy, that was helpful.
I decided not to do the Harmony test at all and to go for Amnio.
i asked my IVF clinic at the Czech republic  if the Amnio will reveal the DE factor
They replied that The laboratory won´t find out that the baby is from ED when taking Amnio test.

They did recommend to undergo an examination of the fetus karyotype from my blood. (for example Clarigo test).
As It is not an invasive method like Amnio test.

Did anyone went through that test?


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## Tinseltown

Hi everyone,

We are getting closer to our treatment (later this year) and are making a decision on clinics by the end of the month. Unfortunately, wherever I look, comments have been completely swamped by the 'tell' brigade - some of whom, to be honest, place an undue emphasis on DNA and only think of the mothers as the ones having a genetic link with the child. Apparently, us 'birth mothers' would be 'step mothers' and we're just bringing up someone else's child with our DP in their place. Those comments sort of made it sound like we were the 'other woman' and that we were taking a child away from their 'real' family, i.e. donor's mom, siblings, etc. who will never know their grandchild or nephew/niece and will experience pain their whole lives. Others have pointed out that this was insensitive and that without us 'recipients', the child in question would never ever have existed in the first place... as our DPs don't even know the donor! But most of the comments were still pro-tell and I have to say, it upset me quite a bit.  

And then, there are _those_ people who basically think that everyone has a right to know who they are, etc. Are you kidding me? Are you trying to tell me you don't know who you are without knowing your DNA? If that's _how_ you think, you have a bigger fish to fry, because no amount of DNA analysis will be able to tell you who you are!

Seriously though... am I just the one crazy person on this planet who doesn't care about my DNA? I don't need science to tell me who my family is. I _KNOW_. And for me, family isn't defined by blood. In fact, there are some people I have very close genetic links to, who I do NOT consider to be family for reasons that will remain private. As in, I have zero contact with them and have no urge to have it. I remember a song that said something along the lines of: _Blood is thicker than water, but love is thicker than blood_. And that encapsulates how I feel about 'family'.

For centuries, humans were capable of living their lives without the knowledge of DNA. People didn't jump off a cliff en masse or went through a self-discovery crisis just because they didn't know their DNA. Otherwise, the human race would have been extinct by now. I'm beginning to think the 'tell' brigade who think like this have serious first world problems and obviously have too much time on their hands to think about themselves this much.

It's a sad state of affairs, when people think their place in the world is defined by their DNA. I mean... if your ancestors were complete losers, will you just throw in the towel and use it as an excuse to never do well? I have met enough people who rest on the laurels of their forebears, and I'm like... "OK, that was your ancestor, and those were his/her achievements. What have YOU done?"

If I had kids who carried my genes, I wouldn't expect them to be exactly like me or like my husband. Both of us come from families where people could actually sing, for example. I think our neighbors would complain if we even tried to. Instead, I would have looked out for their individual talents and encourage them to do well with what they have. It wouldn't be different if I had a DE child.

Anyway. _Rant over_.

Is there anyone on here who has a DE child now and chose not to tell? How is it going? Do you hardly think about it at all? Do the 'tell' comments you see still upset you?


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## Tincancat

Tinseltown your rant has made my day  
Yep who gives a   about DNA.  I'm pro tell but only because it is important to some people so I'd like my boys to be aware of this plus I don't want it to come out as any 'big secret'  in the future.  I could quite easily have claimed a holiday romance as I had my treatment completely solo abroad.  It means nothing to me- my boys are my family however they came to be.  Naturally I hope my boys will grow up to believe the same.  Hope you find some fellow not telling child people without being swamped by the telling brigade.
TCCx


----------



## Tinseltown

Well, *Tincancat*... 

... I haven't even mentioned _some_ apparently Christian people who are completely against donor egg/sperm treatments and use their belief to justify their view. And seriously, one of these days, I might just tell them that they must have read a completely different bible to me.

Because from where I see it, Jesus could pretty much be called a donor sperm child. Unless, of course, you think Mary was up to no good and committed several sins... so take your pick.


----------



## Tincancat

could indeed be the modern day interpretation.  I never get why people think they can 'force'  their views upon others whatever those views and ideas maybe. 
TCCx


----------



## Happy652

Tinseltown i really enjoyed your rant. Thank you, i agree


----------



## Taz29duffy

Hi all,

I am about to transfer our last frozen Embryo and hold little hope. After that we are moving on to donor eggs. At the moment i am in the not telling group, as I suppose I am thinking about how I would feel if it had been my mum who had conceived via DE. I guess this is a very personal decision and I am respectful of parents decisions whether it is to tell or not tell.

Spin x


----------



## Tinseltown

*Taz29duffy* - Personally, I think that the parent who loved me would trump any parent that produced me.

Garth Brooks (country music superstar) grew up in a 'blended family', and he wrote a song called 'Thicker than blood' with the line 'Blood is thicker than water, but love is thicker than blood'. Coming from a blended family myself, I agree with that notion.


----------



## nevertoolate

hi good luck to you. i was not questioned on it at all. i am not sure why they would question both blood groups. it was not mentioned at all.


----------



## Tinseltown

*Destined* - We have been asked for both our blood groups. I have a relatively rare blood group, and if we were going with my blood group only, our options would be minimal (less than 10% of UK population, for example). We instead went for a donor who has my DH's blood group. There's a 25% chance that my blood group and DH's blood group can create a child with his blood group.


----------



## Tincancat

Blood group of mother is always tested in pregnancy because if you are rhesus negative then you need anti D.
Baby blood group is not tested as routine,  only if they require  treatment on special care or are jaundiced.  This is only to find cause of jaundice.  Even if it was tested and different to the mum then the assumption is blood group has come from Dad........  no one ever tests Dad. Therefore there really isn't any need to match blood group. 
TCCx


----------



## Tincancat

No problem. I work on a neonatal unit.  We never test blood group of Dad because we are not even remotely interested. All we are looking for is an interaction between Mum and baby blood as a cause for jaundice. Jaundice happens frequently and it is because baby naturally often has a different blood group to a mum precisely because Dad is different blood group.  Testing blood group of baby allows staff to predict if reaction and hence jaundice will be prolonged. The only time I've ever tested Dad blood is when DNA testing  if looking at genetic cause of a congenital condition in a baby however most DNA testing doesn't require parents blood only if an ambiguous result comes up.  Even then parents can refuse to be DNA tested themselves if they wished.
TCCx


----------



## Kitkat496

Yes what Tincancat said...since the fathers blood type is not usually known to the doctors delivering, even if your LO ends up with a different blood type from you, people would not have any reason to question this as normal (because it IS very normal; if you want to refresh your memory...in the donor thread there is a good explanation of different blood type combos)


----------



## nevertoolate

Apologies if i was not clear on my last posting. what i meant to say is that the hospital did not ask about blood groups so i had always assumed that it would only be a potential issue for non disclosure option for any potential health issues of the child. best of luck with your treatment xx


----------



## Tincancat

No one has to know ever you used donor if  you have treatment abroad.  However do consider your partner will know and if you ever split in the future there could be a problem if they threatened to tell plus if the child ever became suspicious they could do a convert DNA test in the future....just things to consider.
TCCX


----------



## Clarabelle71

I noticed there is a not telling private board but not sure how to access it. Although we wrote our blood types on our medical history form i realized they never listed our donors blood type.x


----------



## bundles

Ladies can I just repeat that the Private Not Telling Board is *strictly* for ladies who are pregnant with, or who have, donor conceived children. Cycling ladies are not permitted. It is also stringently monitored and ONLY ladies that are 100% not telling are allowed access. If you are unsure, you will not be allowed in. This will be demonstrated by your posting history, which should be fairly substantial. We will not allow new ladies access for obvious reasons.
You can PM me if you require access & can comply with all of the above.
Thank you.

Bundles
Site Management


----------



## ZC

Hi All,
New here and so relieved to find you all. ADMIN if this is not ok delete right away. Same question will be posted in the telling thread.

Currently pregnant with DE after a long and painful road to get here. I am worrying beyond belief about this. I know I will have to dip into both threads so hopefully some of you can help. 

Do you think you can get away without telling? I thought so but it seems like every TV ad is about finding your ancestors through DNA samples, even my own family all did it the other day to see where they hail from and I nearly vomited with the stress. It also matches you with cousins and other relatives and enables contact using saliva samples that you send off. So I am now totally freaked out about this. When my child is older this sort of thing will be huge. I worry they will find a relative that isn't my relative and cop on!

We used anonymous donor too so no hope of the child making contact with the donor unless she is registered on one of those DNA searching ancestry websites.  So the child could want to but can't make contact which informed my decision about not telling as well. 

We have told no one not even family. We felt the first person who should know is the child. And that stands. But then our little one chooses to tell people and I worry about that. Maybe thinking way too far ahead.

So how do you plan to manage this? I saw someone say they would destroy all evidence. Well I thought of that too and just the emails alone are so many that I fear I would miss one. And then the paperwork etc. And then in the hospital it is down as a DE baby due to panorama testing (not being able to get harmony test due to DE). So thats a record on my hospital file and maybe their birth record. Actually I might just check that. So baby blood type is already know and that they have no DNA shared with me.

As you can see I feel totally panicked and overwhelmed and I think about this a lot. It is in fact ruining this pregnancy. Although I am so so happy to be pregnant this is such a burden right now.


----------



## louise48910

g


----------



## Candee

Oh Louise! It has made me so happy to read your post!
I am not telling about the fact that my daughter is double donor.
It has taken years for my family to come to terms with the fact that I used a sperm donor, so I am never going to introduce the issue of my beautiful egg donor...
I adore the ground my daughter walks on and we are incredibly close. I have always counted on the fact that if she does find out by accident later, that she will love me so much, that she won't be angry with me... so you can see just how much your post means to me! xxxx


ZC
I worried a lot about this when I was pregnant too, but once my daughter came, it became much less important - once you have your baby in your arms, a lot of worries will fade away!
xxx


----------



## bombsh3ll

ZC said:


> And then in the hospital it is down as a DE baby due to panorama testing (not being able to get harmony test due to DE). So thats a record on my hospital file and maybe their birth record. Actually I might just check that. So baby blood type is already know


I think you will in all likelihood be able to get away with not telling as long as the information doesn't make it on to the baby's birth record from birth.

The cat is however partially out of the bag given you have disclosed use of DE to your obstetric team, and will be indelibly on your medical records. Depending on how the law stands in the future, in rare circumstances your child may gain access your medical records in years to come for example if you passed away and there was a medical negligence case. This is highly unlikely.

The biggest concern is transfer of any reference to DE use into your baby's records, which they may subsequently access for themselves or may come up in any future consultations. Perhaps you could speak to the hospital about this - they may have a confidential advocacy service.

Regarding blood group, it is likely your clinic would have chosen a donor for you with a plausible blood type. This means that even though their blood type may be different to yours, it could only result in your baby having a blood type that could have occurred naturally given the combination of yours and your husband's blood group. For example if you are A and your husband is O, your donor could be A or O as any resulting child's blood group could have plausibly resulted from yours and your husband's combination. They could not however be a B, as this may result in a child that could not have occurred from A and O parents.

What I would say to anyone on this path who has either decided on not telling or wants to keep this option, is think very carefully in the first place about disclosing use of donor gametes/embryos to your medical providers in the UK at all. There is no clinical benefit to doing so as far as I am aware. If you are in the older age group, having your team believe you used your own eggs would only result in possibly closer monitoring or being considered as higher risk for complications, which is not a disadvantage. Of course if you are 50+ it is blatantly obvious you haven't used your own recently harvested eggs, but if asked, you could still claim to have used eggs or embryos frozen some years back.

I did not have any prenatal screening other than the structural anomaly scan at 20 weeks as this can identify treatable problems and has nothing to do with genetic material. I opted not to have any blood tests based on genetics as my personal belief is this is abortion mongering rather than healthcare. I appreciate that this is not everyone's view but you do have a right to decline such tests (or ignore/recalculate result based on donor's age in the case of Down's screening).

Just some things to consider for those wanting to keep the nature of their treatment completely private.

B x


----------



## Me731

louise48910 said:


> I'm not sure how appropriate it is for me to comment here as I am definitely (and was before i found out......) in the telling camp, however I am actually a donor conceived child myself who found out fairly recently.


Louise, I don't think you could know how grateful I am to read your lovely post. Your parents are so fortunate to have you! xox


----------



## louise48910

g


----------



## nevertoolate

it feels like there is no where that parents in the non telling camp can get advice and speaking to people with out the people who believe in telling commenting with their agenda.
its a real shame that both points of view are not being respected. I commented in regards to having a potential situation and another person is now quoting it as advice to people considering not telling. i feel sick that my private thoughts and comments are being used in this way to further peoples personal agenda. it really is very shabby.


----------



## Tincancat

It's a hard fact with today's DNA technology a child can in the future easily have their genetic results.  Us parents can't control everything which isn't such a bad thing in my opinion. 
TCCx


----------



## nevertoolate

if those are your views tincat why are you on the not telling forum. yes we can all apply for our DNA results but how many people do? a lot of pro tellers are commenting on situations that are indeed possible but also unlikely unless it is made into an issue in the first place. from the other point of view a pro teller commented that they felt guilty having their children at all as they wanted them to have regular contact with their donor siblings ... the wonderful women kind enough to donate don't see it in that way at all. they are donating after all in order to help us have our children. 

This should be a safe place for non tellers to have a discussion so please pass your what if comments elsewhere... yes we could all get a DNA test but how many people honestly want to put their own DNA information on a commercial company database that can be used any way in the future. not many unless there are situations like paternity tests in divorce situations. 

There is an awful lot of scare mongering going on here and its really not fair on the people who are at the start of their journey..


----------



## Tincancat

I deal with facts.  My views don't come into this.  The facts are people are increasingly interested in their DNA often as part of family ancestry tracing.  You seem to have an issue with people doing DNA analysis: therefore it would seem you have an issue with an increasing number of people in the general population who do go to these commercial organisations for testing. 
TCCx


----------



## Stacey10

I also wouldn’t go near these DNA companies as I know where I live they collect the DNA and can share with police etc with getting any form of consent from you. Not that I’m going to do anything wrong, but I just wouldn’t trust them.
I’m also in the not telling camp, I know I’m sick of hearing that telling is the “right” thing to do, well it maybe the right thing to do for some but no ones circumstances are the same and you do what’s right for your own personal circumstances and families. No one way is right or wrong in my opinion.


----------



## Tincancat

Gosh this thread can get quite nasty sometimes.  Lete hope a moderator can return some balance to this thread. 
TCCx


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## Mrs G 0207

TCC.... don't force 'facts' on people, make people upset and then expect people to be friendly towards you. 
Please don't comment on this board if you are in the telling camp, there is just no need! 
This is why we have a private non telling board, because no matter what non tellers can't have a safe space whilst there are people constantly reminding us of what can go wrong. 

Never mind needing a moderator to return balance, how about you just leave this particular thread? Your 'facts' simply aren't needed.


----------



## MargotW

If people decide not to tell the child that is entirely up to them but I agree with TCC that there are risks that it will come out in an unplanned way and it's better to be forewarned and prepared.

People can be nasty post separation, not everyone is but some are. Some remain lovely and of course not every couple separates. I know someone whose ex started calling her the surrogate and she needed legal advice to reassure her that she was her children's mother.

I don't go on the DNA testing websites but plenty of people do, they are and there are plenty of stories out there about people discovering that their father isn't their father. This was in the paper the other day.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/18/your-fathers-not-your-father-when-dna-tests-reveal-more-than-you-bargained-for

It's not necessarily the donors or recipients who will be on the websites but could be their close family. Of course it's not an immediate issue, just one when the child gets older and independent enough to send off a sample.


----------



## Me731

Isn't this topic for people who decided not to tell? Or is it just a general thread debating the pros and cons of telling? I'm just genuinely curious, as it seems that there is always someone who pops up with the whole DNA story, trying to get people who have a different opinion,  to see things from their perspective. Of course everyone has heard of DNA tests by now, so if someone decides not to tell, and finds a safe place on this forum to discuss this, why do people decide they still need to educate us about DNA tests (as if we don't already know about this) in order to persuade us differently. Why does anyone feel the need to persuade anyone else who they don't even know to do something like them? I don't like the idea of 'camps'- the tell or not tell camp. We are all individuals here. If telling is right for you, go for it. You don't see people on the telling boards trying to convince those not to tell. I found this thread quite refreshing since it doesn't exist on other forums where you are automatically jumped on if you dare to think it may be wiser not to tell.


----------



## Carter4

Nobody makes the decision to use DE lightly, so the idea that those that are pro telling feel the need to point out all the reasons  why it can go wrong if you don't tell is frankly laughable (code for insulting). 

If only opinions could be delivered in a more measured and kind way, a lot of angst could be avoided.

TCC I note the environment you work in, perhaps too much knowledge in the wrong hands applies here. You have simply been far too blunt on such an emotive issue. You know this though, don't you!


----------



## Star Dancer

Hi all, I am planning on doing DE in Czech in December, my husband and I are definitely in the not telling camp, and we feel very comfortable with this decision. In fact, we are almost excited by it, as we have our own little secret. I have been following this forum for a little bit as I know I cannot join the private not telling group until I become pregnant. I have read all the pages and there is a lot of great information that has answered some of my questions about situations that I may face in the future. I am based in the US and was not required to do any counseling prior to DE. it seems, from what you have all said, that there is very much a one-sided view by professionals and/or the system in the UK, and this seems to be a very narrow-minded view. The system should be ashamed for being so judgemental and making women feel poorly for a decision that is often so hard to make in the first place.


----------



## Tincancat

This is an open forum.  There is no forcing of facts just a simple explanation.  Not everyone will have thought about all the consequences as Margot has said.

If people become upset by a fact being given then the person perhaps needs to look to themselves as to why they are becoming upset: do not shoot the message giver!

Respect needs to be given to those who have not begun to think about DNA testing by the child or wider family in the future. 

People have a right to do what they want and I think it's only sensible the topic is debated and thought through fully before a decision is taken.  My experience has helped others to remain in the not telling because I'm able to contribute to the practical side of what happens in a hospital regarding blood tests.
TCCx


----------



## Artypants

I think we need to draw a line under the DNA testing topic please, there are other arenas on this forum for a discussion on this subject but this particular thread needs to remain as a NOT telling discussion. 

Thanks all x


----------



## Stacey10

Thanks Artypants  
Totally agree dreamingofabfp


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## Tincancat

Totally agree. 
TCCx


----------



## Persipan

emeds, I would like to just gently challenge the idea that all counsellors are trying to push telling on people. My plan would actually be to tell, but in my counselling sessions my counsellor made a point of exploring options for not telling, and what that might look like, as well. I suspect the approach they take is to try to ensure both approaches get discussed - so, for people who don't want to tell, that may feel as though telling is being pushed on you, but for me it was the other way around and the idea of not telling was brought out for an airing.


----------



## Tinseltown

Guys... this whole DNA thing... I seriously sometimes wonder about the sanity of people giving their DNA to commercial organisations who can find a loophole to give your DNA to other organisations freely. Giving away your info could make them way more money than the fee you pay them, so there’s a definitive incentive there that can only be reeled in by a huge amount of regulation... and even then, people don’t shy away from doing illegal things (hence the prisons).

To be honest, it’s easy to be cynical when you see the whole mess about social media and data. And when you look into the past and see how innocent data capturing exercises were used for evil. A long, long time ago, the Dutch created a registry with details of all citizens (including their religion) for welfare purposes and this was well-received at the time. Guess what happened when WW2 happened?!?

You don’t want your data to fall into the hands of the wrong people. Even a seemingly good, democratic country can gather your data and later turn into an authoritarian regime... that’s very, very easy to imagine these days. 

The above lesson from Dutch history repeats itself fairly regularly. Obama asked dreamers for personal data to speed up the process of legitimisation. Guess who’s worried now that Trump is in charge?!?

DNA means nothing. Why does anyone think being connected by blood is special? There are siblings who don’t get on and don’t talk to each other anymore. WW1 was pretty much one big family feud – things may well have turned out different, had the others been just a bit nicer to Cousin Wilhelm.

I also don’t get how people are so interested in ancestry. You are in charge of your own life. Whatever achievements they had – none of them are yours. Silver lining: whatever mistakes they may have made – none of them are yours either. Why bother looking any of that up?

I think it’s such a British thing to do, with some people wanting to find a link to monarchy or something. I don’t know many people from other countries who care!!!

End of rant.


----------



## Star Dancer

Persipan, As I said, I don't live in the UK so I am not familiar with the counseling sessions just going off what was being said on this forum, but that's good to hear that they discuss both sides


----------



## Stacey10

Destined this might help you 
http://www.endmemo.com/medical/bloodtype.php


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## Stacey10

If you use that calculator and put in donors blood group and d/h blood group then you would 100% carry a rh- baby so I’m not sure  after that Bub is born if you would need to have the antigen injection for future pregnancies using the same batch of embryos.


----------



## Miss Sunshine22

Hi Destined,

You would only need the anti-D injection if you, yourself, were rh- and carrying a rh+ baby. Women who are rh+ would not produce antibodies against a rh- baby: therefore you would be fine to carry a rh- baby and there would be no complications from having a different blood group.


----------



## Jeb1982

Hi ladies.

Hope you dont mind me jumping in on your messages.

Me amd dh have been on yhe waiting list in the uk for 6 months but have finally convinced my dh to go anoard as i dont want anyone finding out about having DE.  I have not told anyone or will be telling anyone but just really worried aboyt having DE incase he or she will find out.

I have convinced hunby to go aboard as i have heard it annonomus which i feel 200% happy with.

The problem is my dh is self employed and after doing hours of research for Cyprus dh dont want to travel that far and haa asked me to look at Spain my friend has just been to IB in Alicante and is 9 weeks pregnant bit just wondered if you lovely ladies can recommend a clinic in Spain. I am live in the Midlands and my IVF clinic said they wont do my blood scans etc for an aboard clinic so struggling on this too.

I want my DE baby yo be my and dh baby and no other 3rd party to be traced so aboard it is.

Thank you ladies hope to hear from you shortly 
Many thanks Jeb1982 x x


----------



## Turia

Hi Jeb

There are lots of Spanish clinics so it may be useful posting in the section on Spain https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=356.0

Having used 2 Spanish clinics, my first advice would be to check where you can fly to easily. You don't want to change planes and trains too often, and I speak from experience!

I used Procreatec in Madrid as obviously the city is well connected to most airports. However we also used IVI in Valencia which is a lovely place. There was no direct flight there from Scotland but I think there was from Manchester.

Work out travel first then look at recommendations of clinics, but remember that everyone always praises the one that got them a baby...sometimes a clinic can be great but just not work for you.

Turia x


----------



## justjazzyjess

Hi everyone, 

If you don't intend on telling the child, how do you handle the question of is there any medical history? We will be using anonymous eggs so won't have any medical history to give anyway but would do you say, that there is none?

Thanks


----------



## Stacey10

Yep that’s all I say, pretty much just go on my background, my birth father I really have no idea of that families medical background and I always just go on my fathers medical history because I forget lol. I think it’s more for a rough guide for them unless there is an obvious medical history. A lot of people don’t know their full parents medical history.


----------



## justjazzyjess

Thanks Stacey. It's so nice to speak to other people who aren't telling or considering not telling - I feel very judged for even thinking about not telling but me and my partner are pretty sure at the moment we don't want to for many reasons.


----------



## Stacey10

Yep definitely not into telling here at all 🙂


----------



## express19

Hi All,

Hope you don't mind my joining, so happy to have come across this thread and have been reading from the start!

I am definitely in the NO telling camp. Going solo and people might wonder about the source of the sperm, but it could just have easily been a one night stand. I don't want to chance people, especially family judging my choice of DE as all my sisters have been able to conceive naturally. I am also using anonymous donors, so what will be the point of giving the child a 'marker'? Just imagine if at a family gathering, someone had to explain to one of my nieces or nephews that my child is not really a 'blood' cousin!

I have just started treatment and hoping it will work as I feel the age pressure already. I really need a thread like this where people planning not to tell can be free to express themselves, but most importantly, know that there are others like me. Almost every article online talks of telling and helping the child to adjust, even the free counselling sessions are skewed that way. But, I just don't and can't see any benefit that comes from that and especially for double donation. 

Also good to read about people's experience in terms of what you say to your GP and for me, it's very timely advice as I definitely do not want the mention of using DE or even DS on my record. After all, a one night stand will not be recorded on there!!

Thanks to all who post on here, there are many silent participants that your stories and experience are helping.


----------



## Tinseltown

Hmmm... in my case, I'm not in touch with any member of family on my biological father's side (who died when I was little). So if I had a bio child, he/she would not have the full medical history either.


----------



## Lily1988

Hi everyone I'm new here. We have been battling with infertility for 6 years now. Partner has Non obstructive azoospermia and microtese will be performed this year. We k ow our chances are very slim of finding any sperm and if we do that our success chances are poor. Over the years the thought of sperm donation has gone from no never to yes. My partner 60/40 for a sperm doner, again he only wanted a biological child but he's warming to the idea. The more I have thought though and grieved a biological child with my partner the more I'm Excepting and becoming excited for a future as a family using sperm donation. I'm all for not telling anyone at all. My opinion is that this child not be made in same way as most but it will be made with so much love and wanted so much. My father is my step father and I know my bilogical dad but it shows DNA means not much as the love I have for my step father is how a daughter loves a dad and my bilogical father Is just a distant family member to me. We speak now and again. Have I ever hated that my step dad isn't my bilogical dad and honestly it doesn't matter at all. It's shown me that blood isn't thicker than water really what matters is bonding time and love. Another example is how iv explained to my partner is how much do we love our dog. We love him like our child and its a animal. Im nit comparing a baby to a dog but I wanted to look at how love isn't about DNA. Now all this is becoming real and we are talking more and more I'm waking with anxiety. What if I don't bond with the child? Or what if my love is a different live to my partners love for the child? Will we feel like we are living a lie when his family are overjoyed that he has a child that's not biologically his.? I'm sure all these feeling are normal but the fear is there that my dream isn't actually what the reality would be.


----------



## Lily1988

Excuse the few typos in my last post x


----------



## Jeb1982

Hi ladies

Hope you dont mind me joining the chat.

I'm so confused atm just to let you know alittle history I have dd OE who is nearly 6 and mc just over 2yrs ago again OE.


I have been struggling with the thought of no using my OE and thought I got my head around DE I have been on the waiting list in the UK since Feb 2019 and recently been having counselling to accept that my future is to have no more children and enjoy life with my dh and dd. Which I have just finally accepted until NOW had a call from the clinic saying the have found a match and its a perfect match....
The only issue now is my emotions are everywhere again and quizzing myself do I really want this journey again.

I dont want to tell the child if I accept the offer but scared if they find out later on in life. The donor has her own child but only willing to donate to 1 family so its exclusive but I'm scared if someone finds out. What if someone gets hold my GP records as it was mentioned I'm considering DE.

Sorry to ramble on ladies but im frazzled.

Thanks for hearing me out and please dont take this the wrong way as I am ungrateful for actually having an offer as I am very grateful but quiz myself should I be grateful for what I have and let someone elses dream come true. 🤔😣

Thanks
Jeb x


----------



## Stacey10

Hi, 
Didn’t want to read and run, it seems it basically comes down to the decision, if your happy with one child, if you are and can say your “done” then maybe pass on the offer, if your not sure or you know deep down you would like the possibility if another child then if you turn down this offer maybe you will regret it down the line.
If you do go ahead with the offer, then you really don’t need to tell anyone, not even your gp, it won’t affect the pregnancy at all so it is really up to you if you decide to tell. We haven’t told anyone, apart from our gp, because they helped with the drugs I needed for my cycle. I suppose the hospital may have guessed as I was 49 at the time, but nothing was mentioned, it was just treated like a normal pregnancy.


----------



## Jeb1982

Hi Stacey10

Thank you for your message. 

I am happy with my daughter but I'm worried what if occurs afew yeara down the line or even less.  Its not like that little seed planted in my brain has gone away. 

Thank you for your reply.

Take care 
Jeb x


----------



## ZC

I have a little one through DE and always happy to talk to or help anyone considering it. I’m honest and will answer any question. Feel free to message me directly. 
There’s so much you just don’t realise and think of before actually having a DE baby. 
Take your time and be kind to yourself.


----------



## Stacey10

Jeb, if the seed is there, then it will probably gnaw away at you over time, if you look at it this way, you have nothing to loose if you try again, and everything to gain, another baby, a sibling for your daughter etc, all positive things, the only negative I can think of would be that if it didn’t work you would have to deal with the disappointment from that, so it may either make you more determined to keep trying or it might help you to decide that your fully finished trying, sometime things happen at the right time, maybe look at it, as it’s taken so long because the right match wasn’t there, and now it is, so it really is perfect timing.


----------



## Jeb1982

Thanks ladiea for all your support.

My anxiety is kicking in im so over the place.
I have just found out the donor is a B positive blood group which is different from mine and she is in her early 30's. I have read that on different posts that people only tend to get BFP if matched wuth same blood group and that the younger donor is better fir egg quality.

I'm so worried about accepting the sonor about the chils funding out if they want to search the register here in the UK but also if I have a daughter whi looks nothing like my mini me OE DD and start ti have questions.

Its making me so confused and feeling sick every night morning and when I thunk about it im scared to accept but so scared ti decline..

Sorry to ramble on ladies so everywhere atm. X x


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## Jeb1982

Sorry about the spelling ladies..x


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## Stacey10

Hey me again, I always asked for the donor to be the same blood group as myself, there are charts you can look up online which tell you what your prospective child would have based on the parents blood groups, you could check that out and see. I have also had young donors, the one that that was successful in the Czech Republic was 23, I have done a cycle in Slovakia where I was offered a 33 yr old, I turned her down, more so as she was an occasional smoker, I ended up with a 31 yr old. 
23 yr old.                        31 yr old 
10 eggs                            8 eggs
10 fertilised                        6 fertilised
4x day 5.                          4x day 5 
I don’t expect all four to be good though from the last cycle, maybe two 🤷‍♀️
I also want to let you know that I have oe children as well and they all look different to each other and to me actually, so even though your first child looks like you, if you had another one child it wouldn’t be a guarantee that that child would look like you or have a close resemblance to your oe child either. I think what your feeling is normal, but I also think you maybe overthinking a lot of it, I think you need to bring it right back to do you want another child or not, if you decide yes, then you can start thinking about blood groups etc.


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## MonikaP

Hello everyone
I’m so happy to find this thread. I’m pregnant with DE and definately not telling anyone including the child. I’m part of DE IVF groups and I feel pressured that the right thing to do is to tell. I don’t agree with that at all and think the non tellers should be more vocal. My donor was annonymous and there is no way to find out her details. However I do worry about the popularity of ancestry dna websites and how will my baby react to the fact that he/she was DE conceived. Do you worry about that ? Have everyone gone to the private group ?


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## Lola2021

Jeb1982 said:


> Thanks ladiea for all your support.
> 
> My anxiety is kicking in im so over the place.
> I have just found out the donor is a B positive blood group which is different from mine and she is in her early 30's. I have read that on different posts that people only tend to get BFP if matched wuth same blood group and that the younger donor is better fir egg quality.
> 
> I'm so worried about accepting the sonor about the chils funding out if they want to search the register here in the UK but also if I have a daughter whi looks nothing like my mini me OE DD and start ti have questions.
> 
> Its making me so confused and feeling sick every night morning and when I thunk about it im scared to accept but so scared ti decline..
> 
> Sorry to ramble on ladies so everywhere atm. X x


Hi Jeb, just to give you some hope- my donor was not the same blood type as me, (but she was the same as my partners) and I got BFG from first transfer using DE 😊 Looking down at the little bubba now, I would not change a thing. 
Im also in favour of not telling, although I fear the secrecy may get to me as the years progress. Only time will tell I suppose.


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## Stacey10

As the years go by it becomes less of a “secret” and more than you just don’t remember, my twins are now 7 and my girl is coming up to 5, it’s only crossed my mind a couple of times in that period, that we are in the no telling camp, and I still think we have made the correct decision for our family, maybe if we had done an open de, but there is no way for the kids to trace their blood roots so no point imop and they’re definitely our children, be confident in your decision as it’s right for you 🙂


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## Stacey10

Oh and it is really no one else’s business, unless your tell the child, then it is their story to tell if they wish 🙂


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## Lola2021

Thanks Stacey, Ours was anonymous too.
I think about our donor a lot. Mostly because Im so grateful for the gift that she has given to us. But you are probably right- in time it will probably fade to the back of my mind. My mum doesnt know we used a donor and she keeps saying how much the baby resembles me! Its mad!


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## MonikaP

Thank you Stacey. I hope it will become less important once the baby is in my arms. At the moment I have anxiety about using DE and the child finding out in the future. I went for councelling but the lady kept pushing for me to tell the child so I was very angry and uncomfortable. I am not telling the child and I will not change my mind. We are very private people, our families are very old fashioned. I would never put that burden on the child and would hate if someone make him/her feel different. As a child the last thing you want is to be different. In my school class I was the only one that my mum was second wife of my Dad and I felt different. It sounds rediculous now but in the 80s in my home country not many people divorced and it wasnt accepted.


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## MonikaP

As I’m not telling GP and midwife about DE I decided to do Harmony test privately. I have told them about the donor as I have read on this thread that it can affect the result. I received an email today that there was not enough fetal dna and I have to repeat the test. Has that happen to anyone ? Is private clinic record not accesible by anyone else ? I didn’t give my GP details. But is there any chance my medical record can be accessed by anyone apart from me ?


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## K jade

Hi Monica. Absolutely no one can access any private health care records about you, other than yourself. They are bound by confidentiality. And the data protection act


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## MonikaP

K jade said:


> Hi Monica. Absolutely no one can access any private health care records about you, other than yourself. They are bound by confidentiality. And the data protection act


Thank you for your answer. I was worried about that


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## MonikaP

Did you feel attached to the baby from the early weeks of pregnancy ? I’m 12 weeks pregnant and I don’t feel any attachment and as I’m keeping it secret I cant even talk to anyone about that. I worry that I won’t bond with the baby and I worry that the child will find out in the future and will resent me. I can’t stop this negative thoughts😕


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## MonikaP

Hi
I have joined the forum but I can see that the activity stopped here. From what I’m reading everyone moved to the private group. I’m 15 weeks pregnant with DE and definitely in NON telling camp. Can you please add me to the private group. This is the only place I found understanding and helpful people who is not judging me for not telling. Thank you


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## MonikaP

Turia said:


> Hi Jeb
> 
> There are lots of Spanish clinics so it may be useful posting in the section on Spain Spain
> 
> Having used 2 Spanish clinics, my first advice would be to check where you can fly to easily. You don't want to change planes and trains too often, and I speak from experience!
> 
> I used Procreatec in Madrid as obviously the city is well connected to most airports. However we also used IVI in Valencia which is a lovely place. There was no direct flight there from Scotland but I think there was from Manchester.
> 
> Work out travel first then look at recommendations of clinics, but remember that everyone always praises the one that got them a baby...sometimes a clinic can be great but just not work for you.
> 
> Turia x


Hi
I have joined the forum but I can see that the activity stopped here. From what I’m reading everyone moved to the private group. I’m 15 weeks pregnant with DE and definitely in NON telling camp. Can you please add me to the private group. This is the only place I found understanding and helpful people who is not judging me for not telling. Thank you


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