# Children and families act 2014



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

Just seen something about this on mumsnet regarding post adoption contact. If I've read it correctly it's basically saying that bp's and blood relatives etc can apply to the court for contact including overnight stays after an adoption order has been granted. Does anyone know more about this and or have any feelings about it?


----------



## AoC (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't know about it, but my rational brain says that there would have to be VERY good reasons why this was in the best interests of the child, and I can't imagine many circumstances where it would be.


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Totally agree, this seems so wrong (unless a child was older and had a good relationship and understanding of birth family) To most of us if not all of us here that would be essentially sending your child off with a complete stranger   Once an adoption order is through you are that child's birth parent in the eyes of the law. I find this confusing!


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

If this is true its political correctness gone utterly mad and our poor children that suffer. It's as if we are never allowed to be a 'normal' family. This is very damaging   Actually surely this is a crazy sick April fools on mumsnet?!! I already think all this leave to appeal malarkey is a step too far (ok so I'm biased!) Don't get me started...


----------



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

These are the facts:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/6/section/9/enacted

It would have to be in the child's best interests.

This clause of the act says it all:-

(a)any risk there might be of the proposed application disrupting the child's life to such an extent that he or she would be harmed by it (within the meaning of the 1989 Act),

I don't honestly see how this would be allowed in true 'at risk' cases where the child is removed for their own safety (as is the case with the majority of adoptions these days) so I wouldn't worry about it


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

Thank you for the replies. It has eased my mind I think. I guess it's difficult to see what effect it will have until the new law is actually in place. I really hope it won't amount to anything but just the thought of the implications it could have are very disturbing.


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks Dame Edna, it sounds like they're trying to be inclusive to all but realistically this will not be happening for most (all?!!) families formed by adoption.


----------



## rsm (Aug 20, 2009)

I found this link on *******

http://suesspiciousminds.com/2014/03/16/applying-for-contact-after-a-child-is-adopted/

I'm very worried to read about this and being at just Stage One of the process I need to know exactly what the implications are. I think, at a time when I know the government are trying to get more people to come forward and adopt this could certainly turn them off and have the opposite effect.


----------



## weemoofrazz (Sep 6, 2013)

kayla- jade

You make a very valid point and likewise I hope it doesn't dissuade prospective adopters, however unfortunately there may well be a time when birth parents could be successful in partitioning for and getting post adoption contact. The more worrying element is that it will only take one BP to be successful to set a precedent in the law! 

Whilst this wouldn't put myself or many other adopters off, I am sure it will discourage a few. When we were on our PREP course a year ago now, someone asked the LA if BPs would ever find out adopters details post placement, i.e. names and address, the question was met with an emphatic no! Yet this very thing did happen in our LA and a children's panel ruled that the BP in question posed no threat to the adoptee or adopters and hence forth released the info to the BP!!!! 

Now, I am all for open adoption but to me that is a scary prospect


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I have to say this is very concerning! Even if they don't get contact we'll incur thousands defending applications! The stress and constant worry is going to be awful!


----------



## K jade (Aug 11, 2013)

Just to throw it out there,  frm my experience of working with vulnerable families i have never come across one who would have the capacity to see this process through. I have no doubt that having your child adopted is a hugely difficult thing, and causes imense grief but from my experience these people tend to deal with that in more displaced ways,  ie by producing another child ,  rather than chasing the one already gone.  this is by no means hard fact,  there are always exeptions,  i just wanted to share my experiences
X x x


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks Kayla  

I'm getting increasingly angry that adopters are at the bottom of the chain. Children are removed and placed in loving adoptive homes. This happens for good reason. I will always have a special place in my heart for little pinks biological parents as I'm sure you all will, but this is too much. We are currently awaiting a leave to appeal outcome and are faced with the possibility of a full appeal. For it all to be thrown out and an adoption order to be granted is our dream. And then we may be hit with further implications. How much more can they throw at us, and when I say they I mean the system. It's appalling. Little pinks birth family do not have the capacity to parent yet they have their say, and we are here mummy and daddy, proven to be the best match for this little girl just have to sit back, raise this baby and wait and hope? It's wrong on every level to me and I am so very angry today   They say they are crying out for adopters and are making the process easier. Then all this new legislation that will undoubtedly put thousands off


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Ridiculous!  These things should come with a condition that the solicitors and judges that ask this of of adopters should have to let their own children have contact with the bp involved in the appeal first as a test case. 
It's only acceptable for our children if it is acceptable for all children wonder if ridiculous legislation like this would be passed then . Angry face!


----------



## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

I find this extremely worrying.  I also worked with a lot of vulnerable families when working in family law, and while almost none of them have the capacity to parent, change, or reliably go to contact, enough have the ability to go to their solicitors, turn up at court a few times, and probably to go to contact, unreliably, and completely mess up a child's life again.

I think this is something that will simply have to play out in the Courts before anyone has any idea of where the threshold will lie, and whether it's a real concern.  It could simply be used largely to enforce letterbox contact where adopters don't or won't write.  It could mean that contact is allowed in a lot of cases.  No-one really knows at the moment what a Court will judge to be "harm" or "significant" harm, in this context.  The birth parents wouldn't have to demonstrate they are able to care for a child, simply that contact would not cause the child significant harm.  In the context of a normal Children Act application for contact, where the contact is to be supervised and in a controlled setting, this is a bar which can be set pretty low.  So until there are some guidelines and precedents in place for what harm the sudden reintroduction of a biological parent would be judged to have on a child in a settled adoptive placement, and of what value the Court will place in a continued relationship with biological parents for a child who has been adopted.  Really, no-one knows right now how this is going to be interpreted.  I imagine it'll be a year or so before enough cases with appeals etc have gone through the Courts for their to be any sort of precedent.

It also opens the door up for foster carers to apply for Contact Orders where a child has been with them for over a year.

I just find this completely wrong.  Adoption should be final, it's why people choose to adopt rather than to foster.  I will support my children in finding and meeting their biological parents when they're older, if they want to, but it will be on my terms and in a way I deem to be safe, or they'll do it when they're adults.  As of the Adoption Order the biological parents are no longer legally parents of these children.  Parenting adopted children is complicated enough already, without anyone being able to add to that.

While the Act does include many much needed and highly publicised changes, this one just seems to have got sneaked in quietly when no-one was watching.

Edited to add: It would also open up the possibility of an application being made on behalf of a child for contact with another child, i.e. adoptive parents, or potentially a LA for a child in foster care, could apply on behalf of a child in their care for sibling contact with another child who has been placed for adoption.


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

For me just starting out on this journey I feel that we've been through so much to get to this point and there's plenty more to come. I've always thought of the adoption order as being the end of the difficult chapter and the beginning of our lives as a family. It's the point where you can release everything that's gone on before and get on with being a normal family. It just feels that something like this makes me wonder why or how you can go on living with the threat of uncertainty hanging over your head. 
Don't get me wrong I am not aposed to contact but surely it's not unreasonable to know what is expected at the beginning and not just change the rules as you go along. 
From reading some of your parenting blogs I can see how much of a struggle it can be and takes all your energy just to be a parent without having the added pressure of having to fight for the best for child again and again in court. The point you make Wyxie about the parents not having the capabilities to parent but are more than able to go to a solicitors and turn everyone's lives upside down I think is very true.
I notice adoption uk have a solicitor looking at it and will hopefully clarify things tomorrow.


----------



## katie c (Jun 15, 2009)

this is so worrying 

i told mr c about this, and he nearly lost the plot (sooooo unlike him!) and said over his dead body was master c having contact with his birth mother. i did point out if a court ordered it he'd have no choice, what's the alternative, going to prison?

we have no objection to master c meeting her if he chooses, but the important bit being when _he_ chooses. this should be on _his_ terms not anyone elses.

i know SS couldn't have forseen this but i feel like we've been sold down the river here as adoptors. we're told that we're the child's forever family, and the child has a fresh start with us. is letterbox and open adoption not stressful enough? and now we might have to accomodate the wishes of someone who far from deserves this 'right'?

i genuinely would be put off adopting a child if this had been the case when we started out. i think it being granted retrospectively to current adopted children is appalling. if they said it was coming into effect this time next year, say, at least people would have the choice whether to proceed or not.


----------



## Waiting_patiently (Dec 4, 2013)

katie c said:


> this is so worrying
> 
> i told mr c about this, and he nearly lost the plot (sooooo unlike him!) and said over his dead body was master c having contact with his birth mother. i did point out if a court ordered it he'd have no choice, what's the alternative, going to prison?
> 
> ...


My DH said the same, he said if they insist via a court then they'd have to fight us for 'our child' once an adoption order is placed and no way he would let a child go and visit for a night with some random stranger (which it would be by then) that was unstable enough etc to have their child removed in the first place, crazy stuff!


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I've taken some legal advice on this and am awaiting an update. Rumour has it this has always been allowed but the provision has been simplified. I haven't found the actual provision in th1989 Act yet. I do know that while the bar is set high the majority of adoptive parents won't get legal aid to object these applications. Birth parents are likely to be and we could therefore be financially ruined while they make application after application!

Also the provision isn't just birth parents its any blood relative, any relative by marriage or civil partnership and numerous other people! 

I will update when I have news but if this has always been allowed why have we all be lied to!?


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Thank you babas really appreciate you sharing the advice you are given x x


----------



## littlepoppy86 (Feb 14, 2014)

This is very worrying, so if I'm right, every year or so we could 'get served' by various blood relatives? So year one the BP, year two grandparents then any siblings?! I would worry if legal aid is allowed some BP and blood relatives would do this just to prove a point an exercise control because they have nothing else to do & it's free!

So are we just long term foster carers?! As has been said above, we as the parents of these children are at the bottom of the list..

Makes me very sad an had we just started the process might have reconsidered...

Very disappointing.


----------



## rsm (Aug 20, 2009)

Hi girls

I had got myself into such a state over this too. However I found this response from the Adoption UK lawyers:-

Hiya,
Just to confirm what's already been posted, our Policy and Public Affairs Manager has now consulted with a lawyer. The key message is that there is no need to worry.
This law is mostly a clarification of existing legislation. The Children and Families Act clarifies exactly who can be named in a post adoption contact order.
To date, and under this new law, courts are required to consider the child’s welfare now, and throughout their life. The views of adopters will also be considered. Anyone seeking to make an application for a post adoption contact order will have to gain the court’s permission to make an application, and risks to the child are central to this decision. If granted permission to make an application, the application process is complex, and legal aid is not automatically available for these applications. The courts have to consider to the applicant’s change of circumstances and what is in the child’s welfare now and throughout their life.
Online Team

There was also a statement from Sir Martin Narey on ******* :-

@martinnarey: Let me assure worried adopters. The new Act makes it easier for adopters to stop informal contact and takes away LA duty to promote contact

He posted another statement too which you can see if you look him up on *******. 

It certainly made me feel a lot better


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes there's a good reassuring thread on adoption UK and outlines this definitely isn't as catastrophic as I had first thought


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks RSM


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I have to say to my trained eye it does meant the LA don't have to promote contact but previously they have had control over contact and now this has been passed to the courts! My worry isn't parents gaining contact or anyone else for that matter, it's the disruption applications would cause to our lives. I am hoping to speak with my solicitor next week.

I think while its unlikely its still possible! We have no ideas what that bar will be. Even if it has always been possible why has it never been said? My guess is because many of us would think twice before adopting if we thought that years down the line we'd be dropping our child at a strangers house or paying out our life savings in defence costs!

So I don't think we have any need to panic over the contact issue as I think there's such a minor chance of this happening but I want to know how to handle it. do we be pro active as seek a prohibiting order from close relatives? I'm not sure how it works so I've contacted a solicitor. I want a totally unbiased view moving forward and before matching.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Yes will definitely report back ladies on pre and post adoption issues!


----------



## rsm (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks so much babas - really appreciate it x


----------



## weemoofrazz (Sep 6, 2013)

We are in Scotland so the new Act wouldn't have any bearing on us but I emailed my SW anyway to highlight the issue and to ask if Scotland would follow suit (our Government usually copies the English Acts!). 

In the initial email response from my SW he said he wasn't aware of the new Act but he would contact his manager to get an answer for me. The follow up email is real cause for concern!!! 

We had a revision to our Act under the Adoption and Children (Scotland) Act 2007. And it is already stated in this Act that this is the case!!!! Funnily enough I don't remember them mentioning this to us on the 'legal' information day during training! The worrying thing is that our SW didn't know about it either. 

Now of course as others have already pointed out you could argue that if we as adopters and our SW didn't know this route for appeal existed, then its very unlikely that a BP would either. However, as we all know it doesn't stop a cash hungry solicitor bringing it to the attention of a BP. In essence my SW admitted that yes this could happen, but reassured us that it never has to date in Scotland. 

Then again, our LA assured us that names and address details of adopters would NEVER be divulged under any circumstances to BPs, and what happened last year in our LA? Oh yeh that's right a BM was given the names and address of the couple that adopted her 4 year old   

Whilst this doesn't deter us from adopting it will definitely make us stop to think if were presented with LOs who have 'difficult' legal circumstances! So in effect those that the Act is supposed to have the best interests of at heart are actually being caused 'harm' in that some adopters may think twice. Some of these poor LOs are already termed 'hard to place' without adding anything like this into the mix. 

I have to say that although there may be a slim to no chance of this ever actually happening, it makes us angry as adopters that we seem to be low down the chain in terms of consideration of our feelings. At the end of the day if this ever happened to an adopted child post adoption order it would render the adoptive parents as little more than under recognised and non-paid foster carers!


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Exactly my point Weemoo! While it may have always been possible we have always been told that not even letter box can be enforced! Now we have found out this is not the case! This is wrong and we should be told that while its never happened its always possible and now it's been simplified and highlighted what's stopping applications being made. I also wonder as an 'adopted child' can make an application how this impacts on us in teenage years when they find their wonderful birth parents on ******** or similar!


----------



## katie c (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks for the reassurance guys


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

From reading the adoption uk post what it seems to be saying is that bp's have always had this right and what the new bill really means is that they now need to apply to a court to be granted permission to then go to court to try to obtain contact. In other words it's an additional step for them to go through without the adopters being involved. I assume this is to stop adopters having to go through numerous court cases defending the contact situation as the majority of cases will lack sufficient cause for a judge to consider the contact appropriate. That was my understanding now however I may have completely misinterpreted it!


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

It sounds similar to the steps involved in the appeal process of an adoption order which is happening much more frequently these days due to revised legislation. Little pinks birth mother has had to go to court to apply for an appeal in order to return to court and find out whether she will be granted a full appeal. Several steps and not clear cut. None of this is. And I don't think much of it is new, it just seems more publicised and easier for applications to be made. But hopefully that's all they will end up being


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

Lolly I think you're right and hopefully as you say won't be anything more.

Am thinking of you Lolly and how strong you're being - have been reading your thread, wish you luck and hope thus gets sorted quickly for you.


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks Becs, that means a lot


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm not going to go into too much detail here but if people want to PM me i will respond. 

The general gist was we need to speak with the agency when matching and establish what practical and financial support we will get when these applications are made.


----------

