# AF arriving on day 9 after Embryo Transfer



## Lou Demi (Feb 23, 2005)

I've just had IVF and everything went very well, had two above average embies put back. My NK cells have previously been diagnosed by Dr ******* as high, so I was taking 25mg of prednisolone as recommended by him. The clinic I had IVF at (Queen Marys) don't believe in the NK theory but were happy with me going along with the steroid treatment at the same time.
My AF has arrived on day 10 following ET (day 9 was when the spotting started, in fact on day 8 I was getting cramps and sharp stabbing pains)
I just don't understand why my body seemingly rejected it so quickly.... the cyclogest I was taking, according to what everybody says usually delays the onset of AF anyway. I wasn't due to test until Wednesday 16th.
Anybody out there got any advice?
Feeling sorry for myself and wondered if anybody had any answers.


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## Ellie.st (Mar 11, 2005)

Dear Lou Demi
Sorry, don't have any answers but wanted to send you a  .  I don't have raised NK cells but, like you, I started bleeding on about Day 9/10 of my second IVF cycle.  It didn't happen on my third cycle, however, so just because you have had the problem this time around doesn't mean it will necessarily happen the next time.  I have read about some people getting increased progesterone support during their 2ww (though I myself didn't have this on my third cycle) so perhaps you could ask your clinic about that. 

Best wishes

Ellie


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi Lou

So sorry to hear AF arrived early    

On our first fresh ivf I started spotting a few days before test day (but actually when AF would've arrived - I have long luteal phase - but obviously not a "natural" cycle so couldn't really take this into consideration)...I tested BFN on test day, didn't bother with the cyclogest that morning and AF arrived within the hour so looks like it was only that "holding" it back.

We've just had a natural FET & although I was again on same 800mg cyclogest (400mg x 2 a day) I started spotting on the day before test day - the actual day AF was due, so again looks like only cyclogest delaying AF from coming fully...I still used the cyclogest cos got a "weird" faint positive on 2nd test (although 3 more tests were negative) but by Saturday more spotting (and yet another negative test) so no cyclogest that day and AF showed up full force (and still is  )

All I keep thinking is that AF always seems to turn up bang on time despite having the cyclogest so it is something we will be discussing with our consultant at our follow up appt as I seriously want to try another form of progesterone for our next FET (we've 2 frosties left).  I want to see if I can have gestone (or similar) progesterone jabs or even pregnyl jabs which I know they can also do...as I'm concerned that progesterone isn't high enough for me (I have naturally high progesterone levels when been tested for ovulation so I'm wondering if it means I need much higher levels for assisted treatment to keep womb lining from shedding - of that makes sense  )

I too was on prednisolone (20mg) & clexane (40mg) and I'm convinced I had implantation pains on 6 & 7dpt (sharp stabbing shooting pains) and then got a very confusing result on test day - had negative at 5.30am but then a faint positive at around midday-ish (don't ask why tested again !!) but I've no idea if this was dodgy test, evaporation line or a "real" faint positive...sadly all since were negative (3 more Friday evening and 1 Saturday morning) and AF showed up full flow on Saturday....I'll never know if was a genuine faint positive or not but I'm concerned about the form of progesterone I've been prescribed for these last 2 cycles.

Anyway, not sure if really helped but I would definitely discuss with your clinic as we're certainly going to....it can't hurt to try something different.

Take care hun....thinking of you...
Natasha x


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## Lou Demi (Feb 23, 2005)

Thank you girls for your messages of support. Natasha I've seen you around on the boards before, so sorry to hear about your latest attempt going pear shaped. It's interesting what you say about the progesterone. One of the girls on the Queen Marys board where I've been hanging out had 3 x IVFs and on the third one she insisted on the gestone jabs and she got a BFP and has just had her twins a few weeks ago. I am definitely going to speak to them when I have my follow up meeting with them. I bet there's something in it.
There's one more frostie out there waiting for us but I want to sort things out first.
Thanks to you both, and good luck!
Lots of love
Lou
x


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## Sam2995 (Apr 26, 2005)

I am no expert but have been reading up a bit on natural killer cells and both early AF and the sharp stabbing pains are (according to dr Beer's website)both indications that your nkc's are too high.  Maybe the prednisolone is not enough in your case to get them under control.  Were you having blood tests?

Just an idea.  I am sorry about the BFN.  I also get the stabbing pains on around day 8-10 past ET and am waiting to get the full immune work up with the aRGC.

Sam


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi Sam

Can I ask where you read about the early AF and stabbing pains being indication of high NK cells on Dr Beers website as I've read most of the info (including the papers) but must've missed that bit !!  I had read elsewhere (can't remember where) that the pains can be implantation (or attempted implantation), especially since I experienced hot flushes and sweats around 2 & 3dpt and then I got the very faint positive on 2nd pg test on Friday (which the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think it possibly was a "real" one but sadly short lived)  I'd be interested to read other articles on NK cells if you have some more links....

I also suffer from intense and painful hormonal migraines and have found some of Dr Beers papers very interesting as he believed there is a connection between migraines, endometriosis & autoimmune issues with infertility, recurrent mc and failed ivf - all of which I have !! 

Take care
Natasha


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## Sam2995 (Apr 26, 2005)

Hi Natasha,

I am very sorry to hear about your BFN. This is a link to some of the symptoms I mentioned (stabbing pains) but to be honest I have read about this on several sites and heard of a few people complain of it. It happened to me on two of my IVF failure cycles. A few days after transfer I had a day of shivers followed by stabbing pains and I feel strongly that this was an immune reaction to the embie implanting. But who knows.

http://repro-med.net/tests/endomet.php

As for the early AF I am not sure where on his site I read this. There is a mention somewhere though of hormone levels crashing mid cycle and also that a common feature in women with nkcs is that there cycles get shorter and shorter or else that get spotting in the 2ww. Not sure where though.

Sam

PS As you have immune issues I would tend to trust the BFP you got. I just wish now I had done some early testing in my cycles just so I would have a better indication of what was going on.


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi

Thanks for the link...interesting reading !!

As for progesterone levels...in a natural cycle I never usually experience spotting before AF is due (only when I was experiencing alot of endo problems)...I ovulate naturally on cd14/15 and my cycles have lengthened (not shortened !!) from regular 28 days to 30/31 days (so long luteal phase)...they only started going erratic after 2 early mc's last year and regulated when I was put on clomid to help regulate again and also to boost (ie release more eggs).  I actually have naturally high progesterone levels...all my tests were between 61-81nmol/l (103 & 105 whilst on clomid) and the lowest one I had of 48 was just after our ivf so progesterone levels have never been a problem.  I am only concerned about my progesterone levels during ivf/fet because of the supplement and think cyclogest isn't enough for me.  All my hormone levels have been absolutely fine.

I didn't test early with ivf/fet cycles - I gave up testing early a very long time ago as I just don't see the point anymore...when I had early mc's, the first never showed on hpt (only blood test) and the second was the faintest of positives before turning negative - both tested when AF was late.  With this fet treatment I didn't test early either...I tested BFN at around 5.30am but got a very faint positive when tested around midday (on test day of a natural fet cycle)...but then all others were BFN after...who knows, best not to dwell on it but will be talking to consultant about it.

All my NK tests (had done twice with 6mths between) have come back as borderline, not high, but again this is something we need to discuss with consultant.

Anyway, thanks for the info...
Take care
Natasha


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