# Does no. of follicles = no. of eggs/thoughts on natural ivf



## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Sorry to sound dumb but does the number of follicles you produce mean the number of eggs you have produced?  

It's just that if i move to OEIVF for a couple of tries i was considering natural or mild IVF as at my age i don't want any more damage done (by all the drugs) to the eggs i may have left.  And if my lining seems ok and i'm producing some follies i was hoping i could manage without all the stimulation, I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts.  For my IUIs the doc also thought my FSH etc were pcos like so safer not to have meds due to risk of multiples but i guess with IVF you want lots of follies so that's not a risk but then you have the risk of OHSS...?

On my first unmedicated IUI on my day 9 scan my lining was 7mm and i had 4 'significantly large follicles, 5mm, 10mm, 13mm and 14mm'  on my second unmedicated IUI my day 12 scan showed some follies with one at 20mm and lining of 9mm.  The doc didn't say how many follies and annoyingly i didn't think to ask, he just talked about the good one and it being ready to go.

Would you consider a natural or mild ivf with these kind of results?  That's also why i asked about follies equalling eggs cos even though i may be producing follicles is there a chance they don't all have an egg in them?  I googled this today but didn't know how to word it to get the answers i needed but one article i did find said sometimes from 10 follies they retrieve 8 eggs at collection but that's often due to the egg not being found in the follicle by the doctor and taken up by the syringe.

Any thoughts appreciated

GG x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

GG I can't help you re PCOS but when doing ivf the drs warn you that not every follicle will contain an egg it is an indication coupled with you oestrodial blood level at the time that gives then additional info. Some follies have no eggs unfortunately and then sometimes they find a bonus egg!!


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## lulumead (May 29, 2008)

hi GG


in my experience not all my follicles had eggs, that's basically the risk with natural IVF, you could go for EC and then not find one, or it then not fertilise...but the advantage is as no drugs you could go again the next month...its just very expensive if there is nothing to put back!!


xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

I've been looking into natural ivf create do a 3 cycle package for only £4k so less than half an average normal ivf cycle in uk!!


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

So i guess if you have the drugs and you create more follies it just ups the chance that as you have more follies they might find more eggs?

I'm looking at Create too and at first thought it looked like pretty good value but i worked out it was more expensive than that I have their price list and it says natural 3 cycle package is £4920, however i haven't contacted them and i didn't know if that included any consultations cos the way it's listed it has 'step 1 consultation and fertility scan' (which adds up to £565), 'step 2 treatment consultation' (£150), 'step three treatment options' (3 cycle natural £4920/3 cycle mild £7,250)...all this comes to £5635 and i didn't know if that included the sperm or not, or the HFEA fee??  Then under their heading 'same sex couples and single women' it has another listing for IVF with donor sperm at £2,740 which doesn't match either price on the other page but says donor sperm and HFEA ivf fee is extra....  it's very confusing.  Have you been in contact with them?  If your price is right i defo might go with them...

Lulumead has been with them haven't you?  I need to call them but haven't got round to it yet.


GG x


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## lulumead (May 29, 2008)

quick one on create....yes iVF is £2740 then drugs on top - but you don't use as many! and sperm on top of that...I have imported from ESB...its not that cheap but cheaper than other clinics...you also have to pay for bloods on top during treatment.


obviously natural IVF has no real charge for drugs as you don't use them...maybe a trigger.
xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

they answered my enquiry through their site with an email even though i'd requested a call but they still haven't made things clear.

Lulu does that £2740 include any consults etc or are all those on top?

GG x


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi ladies

I am possibly considering Create as well for natural cycle IVF.  Can one of you clarify the 3-cycle package: do they collect one egg each time and freeze it, then try to fertilise them all at the end of the 3 cycles - or do they do the fertilisation as you go along, i.e. collect one egg, see if it fertilises, put embie back in if it does - and if you get a BFN you just move on to the next cycle. So then if you are lucky enough to get a BFP after 1 or 2 goes, you just "forfeit" the third go (but you are so happy that you don't mind)?!

And why is the cost so cheap? - I know it is without drugs but surely drugs don't make that much of a difference to the cost?!

Also, is it possible to just do one cycle at Create?

B xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Bethany915 said:


> Hi ladies
> 
> I am possibly considering Create as well for natural cycle IVF. Can one of you clarify the 3-cycle package: do they collect one egg each time and freeze it, then try to fertilise them all at the end of the 3 cycles - or do they do the fertilisation as you go along, i.e. collect one egg, see if it fertilises, put embie back in if it does - and if you get a BFN you just move on to the next cycle. So then if you are lucky enough to get a BFP after 1 or 2 goes, you just "forfeit" the third go (but you are so happy that you don't mind)?!
> 
> ...


From speaking to to others it is possible to do one cycle - my friend got pregnant on her first cycle there but she was paying for it cycle by cycle. The 3 cycle packages are like an ininsurance policy, LWC and some of the US and Spanish clinics do them, cheaper if you go all the way to the 3 rd cycle, more expensive if you only use one. Some US clinics also have money back options if you fail to get pregnant, or don't deliver.
The costs of drugs can make a huge difference on my last cycle I was paid 3-4K for drugs on maximum doses and that was not buying them from the clinics but from cheaper pharmacies direct.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow!  Thanks, JJ - I didn't realise the drugs could be so expensive!  I'm glad that I know there is no point in me even trying them  .

B xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Bethany - It all deends what drugs you are on and the doses though , but if you are on large doses (ie 600 units) of Puregon or Gonal F you are looking at around £300 a dose a day alone and that was 2 yrs ago.


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## GIAToo (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi Girls,

Bethany - on my last medicated IVF cycle my drugs came to £1,100 and I was on 450 Gonal F every day (I had enough for 12 days of stimming). And on natural IVF, they collect the egg(s), fertilise it and do ET each time you cycle.

I am going to Reprofit to do a mini IVF (i.e. low stimm) before Christmas    I have been told the cost is 800e (including ICSI), but I am waiting confirmation from the clinic on that.  Then obviously I have to pay flight and accommodation on top.  The cost of drugs will be minimal.  The contraceptive pill I already have, then I'll need Clomid (questioning that as I'm worried about lining issues) and I presume a trigger shot.  I will try and get the progesterone and steroids from my GP this time, but even so they're not too expensive.

I looked at Create, but have decided on the cheapest (with a good reputation) clinic for me, especially as the sperm there is only 100e (compared to £1585 at the Lister    )

GG - as JJ has said, sometimes there are 6 follies and only 4 eggs let's say OR sometimes there are 4 follies and 6 eggs!   

Lots of luck with decision making everyone - I feel relieved and a bit scared now I have made up my mind.  If this cycle doesn't work I will then just wait for my DE slot at Reprofit in May.  At least I will feel (I hope!!!) I gave my OE my best shot! 

Night 
GIA Tooxxx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

hi girls

Giatoo, I'm also considering minimal IVF with Reprofit and had an email back from Stepan over the weekend.  It does  cost 800e but i didn't ask about icsi or not and he didn't mention it either (do people think ICSi is the best way to go, I still don't know??) .....  he said i would need two boxes of clomid and 1 vial of pregnyl.  If clomid can cause lining issues is there an alternative?  I would like some stims in case they end up with nothing to work with.  As its natural/mimimal why would you need the contraceptive pill? is that so you can time things better?  Also what are the steroids for?  Is that for a particular issue you have?  And are you just going to take progesterone post tx to help aid implantation?

God i can't believe it's so expensive at the lister. Madness.

I also want to try and have a tx before xmas but i am going to wait until after i have seen recurrent mc consultant on 4th November in case they find something they need to sort out.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi girls

GIA Too - well done on making your decision!  Sounds like you have a good plan in place - and another chance with your OEs   .  Are you going for ICSI because of any particular problems or did Reprofit recommend it for older eggs?  (I remember Maya7 told me she had ICSI because apparently older eggs can have harder shells which makes it more difficult for the sperm to penetrate - have you heard that?  Anyway, it worked for her!)

GG - good luck with your recurrent miscarriage appt.  Hope it helps you to decide the next step.

AFM, I have a CD12 scan tomorrow, with potential basting Friday.  And I am waiting for my DHEA to arrive to start my 4-month experiment   (it's taking ages to get here, I ordered it about 10 days ago - but I guess it is coming from the US...)

B xx


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## GIAToo (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi,

GG - gonna copy your questions so I can answer them all 

*Do people think ICSi is the best way to go, I still don't know??* - I have never had ICSI, I only mentioned it in case anyone needed it as at the Lister they charge an EXTRA £1300 for it! I have never needed it and I have heard that it can actually damage the eggs/embryos too so I would rather not have it. As for all these things it's different for everybody and everybody's experience is different, which is no help at all when you're trying to decide what's best for you! 
*If clomid can cause lining issues is there an alternative?* Yes, there is an alternative and it's called Femara and costs about the same as Clomid. There is another issue with Femara that I can't remember off the top of my head, which is why Drs tend to prefer Clomid, but I'll look it up and get back to you.
*As its natural/mimimal why would you need the contraceptive pill? *Stepan said I don't have to but......yes it is better for being able to time things esp with flights etc, so I think I might. My worry is that my ovaries get too relaxed!!
*Also what are the steroids for? Is that for a particular issue you have?* Yes, I have slightly raised NK cells.
*And are you just going to take progesterone post tx to help aid implantation?* Yes. Most people take it up to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Bethany - it does actually feel like an acheivement just to have made a decision!   As I said I'm not going for ICSI myself as I've never had to use it, but just thought I'd mention it 'cos I can't believe how cheap Reprofit are compared to the Lister!  I have heard that about older eggs but the ones I get that fertilise, seem to be ok. At the Lister they don't use ICSI unless they have to (thank goodness!) Hope you have sorted things out re: a will and your KD is happier and co-operating now!  

Hello everyone else  
GIA Tooxxx


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi girls

Interesting discussion about ICSI.  Personally, I also think it would be better to do it without - unless you really need it.  Intuitively, I think that surely it must give a better chance of a healthy embryo if the sperms and egg are left to get on with things by themselves, so that one of the "best" sperms penetrates the egg - rather than having an embryologist choose which one they think is best without really having any way of knowing.  And then pushing it manually into the egg - I would have thought that might run the risk of damaging the egg...

Of course, I know that there are plenty of perfectly healthy babies who have been conceived through ICSI, so I'm sure someone will be along to say that I'm completely wrong   - but an interesting topic.

GIA Too - I have made some progress on the will front, so KD has (thankfully) relented and is happy to continue with the tx as long as I "keep up the momentum"   .

B xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Re ICIS some clinics particularly abroad and in the US do ICSI routinely as it increases the chances of fertilization. Also if using frozen sperm even via a clinc where the donors are supposed to be the best of the best they will use ICSI post thaw.

We have a lower sperm count and so need ICSI.

Good Luck


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Hi girls

just a quickie to say thanks for answering all those questions Giatoo.

I think i'm going to be looking at going to Cz around 26th/27th November.  I guess the timing's are the same with or without drugs?  In that we'll need to be there for as long/if not longer as those having stimms? Can someone just quickly remind me what cycle day EC and ET usually/roughly are?  

Thanks

GG x


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## sweet1 (Oct 5, 2008)

All the best GIA 2 and GG, I must say this 'min-stim' IVF at Reprofit sounds very appealing, do you girls know the success rates? If my final vial doesn't do its job in November I think I may look into it.
GIA Too, I am very happy for you, it sounds like you have made a decision you feel comfortable with. I'm rooting for your eggs x
GG honey we may well be at Reprofit at the same time  (although I might be a little bit earlier than that, will have to see)


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Hi sweetsa

where is it you're having your tx?

tbh i'm still in a bit of a spin about what the hell to do next really.  My head's been a bit all over the place and thinking straight and making decisions hasn't really been happening.  The only thing i did know was that i was not tx'ing this month as i wanted to get my recurrent mc appt out of the way in case carrying on would be pointless.  Not txing gives me a little bit more time to think but in some ways i don't want any more time to think cos i just drive myself nuts   and get stressed and down. And i guess the thing with going abroad is that unless you're like clockwork or your timings are taken care of by downregging or the pill etc then everything has to be booked at the last minute anyway so i'll still have that stress and kerfuffle....and more time to panic about it in the meantime grrr  

It winds me up too that I've just had an email about a ryanair sale and not only can i not book as i won't know my dates but what's more irritating is that they advertise it as fares from £9 and it's all £9 this and £9 but i put in some dates and scrolled through and not one week was there a fare of or close to £9.  Yes they are still cheap bit it just makes me cross that they're such liars  

Anyhoo just a lil airline rant there, sorry about that.

GG x


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## sweet1 (Oct 5, 2008)

GG I have 1 vial of wriggles waiting for me at Reprofit, hope to be there w/b 22 November - yes timing issues are horrendous, tell me about it!


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## GIAToo (Nov 8, 2009)

Sweet SA - no idea on success rates to be honest.  I have given up looking at those! I just need to do what I need to do and I know of at least one person who was given a 1% chance of getting pregnant with her own eggs and now has a healthy baby boy.

GG - I looked up flights on the Ryan Air website last night for the dates I think I will need to be out there and it came to £48 return, but I'm sure I won't end up with anything so cheap!!If I can take the pill for just 14 days instead of 21 then I could be out there the same time as you    

Bethany - I agree with you about leaving the egg and sperm to "get it on" themselves!   

GIA Tooxxx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Giatoo i'm with you on the 'sod the success rates' thing, my god i don't need anything else to drive myself nuts over!!  I've heard people say it's got good rates and i've heard that people have got pregnant, enough information for me!

I don't really understand the pill thing as i've never taken it, was it recommended to you/is it recommended to people to take it to help timing?  I could possibly understand that more with DE if you have to synchronise with the donor, is there any other reason it can help with tx?

Yeah ryanair looks cheap but then they add on this tax and that tax and this 'i pressed a button for you tax' and 'computer says no' tax blah blah blah but still cheaper than here.

GG x


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Hi again

Giatoo been reading a bit more of your diary and you mention that your Consultant at the Lister (forgive me if i get some details wrong) said that with 4 eggs mild IVF wasn't worth continuing with.  I guess you only know that you had 4 eggs as you were actually undergoing an IVF cycle?  I guess like the heading of my post, there's no way of knowing how many eggs you had otherwise is there?  So me saying to Stepan at Reprofit that for my first tx the sonographer reported on my day 9 scan 'i had four significantly large follicles.......5mm, 10mm, 13mm and 14mm'  doesn't actually mean anything does it?? If you know what i mean.  I reminded Stepan of these results and my age to ask whether he agreed that minimal stim IVF was a good idea and he said yes, but having those follies doesn't give me any idea of how many, if any, eggs i'm producing??  

Think i've just answered my own question here/realised that you guys have already answered this but i guess as it's my first time at IVF i was kinda hoping that as i was producing follies i was producing eggs but that's not the case is it.

Do the doctors/us only find out how many eggs we have at egg collection?  So is there a chance we have a few scans, everything looks good, good lining, good follies and then it gets to egg collection....and a big fat nothing?

Also, Giatoo i identify with so much of your diary and i just wondered what the book 'Eat, love, pray' is about?  

And i know you have your name down for DE in May (which you won't need  ) but how long was the wait?  And were you going for DE and DS as opposed to donor embryos?  What was the cost? And have you asked them to wait on your deposit for now?  I'm thinking that might be my next move but it all confuses the hell out of me.  The thought of IVF is still scaring me too.

GG x


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## GIAToo (Nov 8, 2009)

GG - hello   

I think the main thing is that you just never know how many eggs you're going to get.  I think, from what I've seen on FF, it would be quite rare to get say 10 follies and only have 2 eggs.  It is usually only out by one or two (i.e. with me I had 6 follies and only 4 eggs).  My consultant at the Lister believes that you have to produce as many eggs as possible to get that "one good egg" hence high stimulation doses, whereas those that advocate natural or mild IVF believe that your body naturally pushes that "one good egg" forward, so what's the point of trying to rally up all the other "not so good" eggs.

Plus, every cycle is different.  You could have one cycle where you have 4 follies, then the next one 8 follies and the next only 2.  It's frustrating   

I got the book title wrong slightly, it's "Eat, Pray. Love" and it's about a woman who takes a year out travelling, she goes to Italy, India and Indonesia, all for 4 months at a time. They've made it into a film with Julia Roberts, which I haven't seen, but the book is very inspiring.

As for DE, I applied in July so the wait is approx 10 months.  I have asked Stepan if I can pay the DE deposit when I know the outcome of this next cycle and await his response.  It is only a month later so hopefully he won't mind.  I've decided to spend out for ID release sperm on the DE cycle hence why I'm not going for donor embryos.  However if the DE fresh cycle doesn't work and I have no frosties, I may have to move to donor embryos for financial reasons.

I'll try and answer your PM before I go out today   

GIA Tooxxx


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