# Muddled minds ... appreciate any thoughts



## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi - v long story, short ... DP and I have five failed ICSI. We've found an amazing lady who has offered to be our surrogate. We've not met yet as I don't want to give either of us false hope when DP and I haven't made a final decision. (She's suggested I make this post!) Given the fact that my arthritis/immune system simply won't allow any embryos to survive (all other tests are fine), surrogacy seems the only logical solution to our problems. While DP and I recognise fully that surrogacy will allow me time to get my health to a high level AND that the universe has smiled on us to have this lovely lady get in touch and make this offer, we're both finding the _entire _ concept hard to get our heads around. We know what happens, of course, though it's the emotional side of having someone else carry our little one, the levels of trust involved, whether there are ever disconnected feelings towards the child after it's born, etc.

In addition, DP is in his mid-50s and is starting to get itchy feet about being an ancient dad. I'm 39 so, all round, feel like our time is almost up. I'd also add that I'm at the end of my emotional tether. Can't talk about all this with anyone now without crying like a ... well, you know! We need to make a decision soon and I'd love to get the ball rolling.

BTW, we've just made an appointment to see a counsellor at Guy's ACU to discuss everything, too.

So, we'd really love to have any thoughts or advice from those who have been IPs in the past or are going through it - and who may have had this age thing going on. What it's like, how you feel during and after ... anything really that might help. And if you'd prefer to IM/PM me, that's fine, too.

Many thanks,

BM x


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## missmarple (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi BM. We are looking for a surrogate too so I can't comment on the disconnected feeling and so part of the post other than to say I can't imagine feeling that way as I think the sheer joy of having a baby to look after and nurture will take over from any worries! As far as age goes we are in a similar situation - I am 41 and dh is 52. We had our son two years ago. Dh had always been totally opposed to fatherhood and then suddenly very keen in his late forties so we went ahead. All I can say is he is like an evangelical preacher on being a dad - he absolutely loves it! He has even started working part-time to see our son more.  When you are older parents you tend to meet others in the same boat and all our network of mummy and daddy friends are around our age. Admittedly dh is the oldest but no-one has ever said anything remotely negative probably because dh has renewed energy and life and bounds round the playground after our toddler like a spring chicken.

I know when he starts school we will be the oldies at the gate but it does not bother us in the slightest. Having a toddler keeps us so active and young we often forget we are older parents!


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## Jo (Mar 22, 2002)

Bm, Hi 

What a wonderful offer to have been given , but you have to think it through.

We were IP's and had host surrogacy to start with, then went on to straight, and you are concerned how you will feel to some extent, but I can say without a doubt I am Charlie's mama 110% , the love we both felt for him straight away was so intense, I have never felt anything like it before .

If you do decide to go through with this, speak as much as you can to your surrogate, get everything straight, and keep asking here if you need to know anything.

We are both 42 and we feel we are older then some parents but also we are old enough to understand things, have seen what some of our friends have done and feel we might not do that with our child or think, oh god yeah we must remember to do that that way .
Yes we would have liked to have been younger but our baby wasn't ready to be with us until now, and we are ready to bring him up as well as we can and feel we can at our age, so if you and your DH feel its right, then its right for you 

Remember if you ever need to chat, we are here 

Take care and let us know how your counselling goes.

Love Jo
x x x


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## maymcg (Aug 26, 2009)

Hiya BM

I thought i would post a perspective from the other side so to speak   I hope you dont mind.

I am doing host surrogacy but just wanted to put some of my feelings down for you!

I come into surrogacy for purely selfish reasons, i loved being pregnant, my last child was born 3 months early and i felt like i had missed out on the best bits. I was going to donate my eggs but came across surrogacy and thought why not all my bits work! Now a year into my journey we are just about to start our 2nd transfer and i would do anything to help my couple get pregnant. My DH isnt keen on me doing straight surrogacy but has changed his mind for our couple as we have become such good friends all we want to do is see them sitting there with their son/daughter. 

One of our biggest fears when starting surrogacy (and most surrogates) is that when we have the baby what if the IPs change their mind and dont want the baby. I know hard for you to imagine but i would hate it, i'm done with babies and am looking forward to getting my independence back when my little one starts school. We put as much trust in you as you do in us to keep to your side of the bargain! Obviously you hear stories about surros not giving up the child but this is the minority. I have told my IPs that if they dont want the baby I'm selling it on ebay!

I wouldnt worry about your age either.

Hope this made sense!

May
Xx


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Ladies - thanks so very much.  All your messages give me a great sense of peace.  (Let's hope that DP feels the same way: I'm pulling together two fact sheets - one on Surrogacy (including your posts), and another on the potential surrogate's family as we've got to know each other pretty well in a short space of time.)

I'll keep you posted re the counselling.  I saw the lady at the Lister when I was having a tough time with ICSI.  I can laugh now but imagine when this happened:

Me (terrible state, crying non-stop - actually, more like wailing - because my eggs weren't reacting to all the stimulation meds)
Her: "Try not to think about the future and what may or may not happen.  Though, you might want to think about what you'll do if IVF doesn't work for you ...."

Totally crackers!!!  At least it stopped me crying: was totally dumbfounded.  Anyway, let's hope that people at Guy's are better - particularly as DP will be with me.

Big hug to you all and all the little ones lurking in the background,

BMxx


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## nostalgicsam (Jul 1, 2005)

good luck older parents rock


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## CarolynB (May 17, 2008)

Hi BM

Read your post and had to post.  So fab that an angel has offered to help you.

I know all our stories are different but - lots of cycles at top London hospitals, older (much) parents, good cycles but auto immunes mean I reject.  Sound a little familiar 

My dh is now 5-3.  OMG.  He was really worried about his age.  More from the perspective of the child.  They'd be embarrased etc etc.  So far only one person has asked if he was the Grandad!  We just laughed.  The poor girl was so embarrassed.  All our friends know that we would have given our right arms for it to happen sooner.  It did not so now we have to get on with it.  Because we are older then there are different things that we will give our son than had it happened sooner.

I am 4-3.  My arms ache.  My back aches.  And this is just with a little one.  Goodness only knows how we will cope when he is a toddler.  But we will and we would not have it any other way.

This is the best thing that happened to us both.  We thank my sister every single day for what she did to make us a family.  WE had given up on it ever happening for us and then it did.

We are mixed religions so could not have Sam baptised.  We had a Naming Ceremony for Sam and it was the happiest day of my life (well equal first with our wedding day and may be the day Sam was born).  It is not just the joy that Sam has brought us but the sheer joy of all our friends and family too.  We had over 100 people and it was amazing to see the joy of so many that we got a happy ending and how it made others feel.

As others have said, you need to work through your feelings together.  Don't be put of my the age thing.  Don't be put of by the fact that you'll need to educate others about surrogacy.  There are more hurdles to clear but when you hold your little bundle or tell people that you are the Mummy and Daddy then everything else will just melt away.

Good Luck.  Here if you have questions about surrogacy journey etc etc
Carolyn  xxx


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks, again, to all of your very helpful views.

I am pleased to say that the counsellor we saw at Guys is accomplished.  We came out of the session with a number of action points.  If I were to be critical, I would say that the counsellor focused - from the start - on the negatives, the risks; she has seen surrogacy arrangements work beautifully and others not.  To be fair, the expectation probably is that we've already thought about the main objective, to be holding our child in our arms, so she feels the need to ensure the rose-tinted glasses aren't blinding us (well, me) to other, key things.  And she gave examples of where it has gone wrong, in her experience.  The main message was that - while, of course, there must be friendship and trust with the surrogate - it must be treated primarily as a business arrangement.  Easier said than done, I expect.

You'll probably know about the surrogacy law change from April next year.  As we are unmarried, we would not be able to enjoy the same relatively easy transfer of parents post-birth, if treatment starts before 6 Apr 2010 - though it means that the sperm could go into quarantine soon.  The counsellor said that, if treatment started before this date, this would mean that social services would have to be involved and the baby put into care until the adoption process could take place.  (Does this ring true for anyone ...?)

Re surrogacy success rates, I've seen mention that it's gone fine in 97% of cases .. though that doesn't say how it went along the way.  DP, who saw all of your responses (and is still concerned about his age), said that a) he notes that there are no male responses (though is that surprising?!) and b) it would be unsurprising if only those with hope or a happy outcome responded to my post; that those who had a difficult or worse experience might be reluctant to cast any gloom.  One of your DH's has kindly offered to speak to DP about it all.  My instinct is that, even though it would be eminently sensible, he won't take it up as he's not one for opening up.  That said, I wish I could find a way for him to communicate with someone (anyone!) about being an older dad.  

I held it together for most of the session but was a large puddle by the end so have agreed to go back and see the counsellor one-to-one to talk not about the future, but about 5 failed ICSI in 18 months, which emotionally - as I'm sure a number of you know - just piles up and piles up.  Better out than in, as they say, so I hope to get started shortly.

So, I am happy to go ahead though DP has yet to make his final decision.  Our prospective angel has been wonderful about it all - agreeing to see an independent counsellor who will do what COTS, eg, would do - assess suitability and preparedness for surrogacy.  (It would be her first time.)  Of course, we'd pay for it and would hear, as would the surrogate, whether we were good to go.

I'll keep you posted.  And thanks to each of you for being here and being so supportive.

BM x


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## maymcg (Aug 26, 2009)

Hiya again!

Glad it went so well for you but i just have a few things.........

I am really shocked at the councellor saying that you have to treat surrogacy primarily as a business arrangement! For a start its illegal to pay for a baby and by using the term business arrangement i think this implies this. We are given expenses. Also if my IPs were to treat me like a business arrangement then i'm afraid i wouldn't go near them with a bargepole. I need to have a friendship and lots of trust in the 'relationship' so i can see what kind of parents they are going to be and for them to know that i will take care of their baby but be able to give it up in the end. I know most surros, i know, would be the same and have been treated like this and the surros havent gone ahead with the journey because they were treated like this.

I dont know about the laws but i thought that as long as the baby wasnt born before April 10 then you would have no problem. Its maybe worth finding out more about that. However saying that you will probably find that by the time you freeze the sperm even by the end of this month it will be 6 months at the least before you start treatment so that would be April anyway!

Surrogacy arrangements have their ups and downs but i think that as long as you are honest with your surro from the start and throughout (and vice versa)  then a lot of problems can be avoided. Never let a silly little thing get in the way, always talk about whats bothering you and hopefully everything will go well. Its all about communication. 

Hope this helps and i wish you well with your councelling and hopefully your upcoming journey

May
Xx


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks May - I know re the business arrangement stuff. I understand that they are saying that the agreement has to be in place, there needs to be a way to resolve any issues, etc but you're right; I don't see how I (or the surrogate) could possibly go at this simply as a business deal. (I get your point re the inappropriate language; I don't think it was meant that way ... she may have recognised in DP that he's a 'suit' so tried to communicate with him in a way he would understand. Who knows ...) And the surrogate and I get on really well ... emailing all the time and, though surrogacy is always there, largely about the sorts of things friends talk about. The surro (who reads this thread) would attest that I was in a bit of a state afterwards as it all seemed to be about the brain rather than the heart. (I can do both but, for this, the latter _has _ to be key.) I'm not worried that she and I won't be able to communicate and as we do v well! Even if this doesn't pan out, I've found a new friend.

Re the law, I checked the links to it from Nat Gamble's site; it seems that, until 6 Apr, unmarried couples will have to go the adoption route. (My other half is a solicitor so he's looking through all of it - and we'll speak to Nat Gamble.) The counsellor seemed pretty certain - and they do surrogacy there - that it related to the start of treatment: not the child's birth date.

All the best,

BMx


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## Amandajb (Sep 6, 2007)

Thought I'd add my twopennyworth.

To be short, I'm appauled at this Counsellor and her total lack of knowledge about the whole Surrogacy situation.  She really is so ignorant it looks very bad on the organisation she is representing. 

Social Services? Put into Care? This is a new one on me.  I have done (far too) many surrogate journeys and seen others take the same path, and she is talking out of her own a*se.    

May has said it further up the page and I will repeat the sentiments. If any IPs approached me trying to make the journey a 'business' one, I would not work with them.  Its as simple as that.  Although you must have agreements in place, this journey can only (IMO) be completed together successfully on the basis of friendship and mutual trust.

So although I have every respect for Counsellors and the law of this land, I'm afraid this Counsellor appears to be a fine example of why people are scared or disuaded from going down the surrogacy route.  Being misinformed by ignorant people with their own negative opinion of surrogacy (because I'm sure thats what she has).

You have some really good posts here from people who know what they are talking about.  More than can be said for the Counsellor.  Listen to lgft, consult Nat Gamble.  Both these people have a far better idea of the law than the Counsellor. 


Amanda


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

I can't even begin to tell you how upset I am. I cried myself to sleep last night. This was the first time that DP has spoken to _anyone _ about all this - including his family and friends. He's still thinking it all through and I'm desperately worried that the counselling session has actually been a nuclear session. I've already lined up Nat Gamble to talk it all through, if we go ahead, and put a post up on the Surrogacy Law thread re the social services stuff.

Can anyone recommend a counsellor who knows her stuff? I live in London so she or he would have to be here as DP wouldn't travel.

The thing that's terrifying me is that this is the most important decision in my life. It will dictate my future. But it seems that I don't get to make this decision as it involves another. Of course, I love him very much and hate to put pressure on him ... but I'm so fearful.

The surrogate and I are raring to go. We get on brilliantly. Why must this be so hard? I can't bear it. Have to go now ... too upset.

BM x


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## missmarple (Jul 23, 2009)

Bubblemac - sending you a big virtual HUG....

I don't have any advice except to say if your dh would like to email my dh, do pm me. We are IPs who have found a surrogate and about to embark on the journey so we have a lot in common. My dh is not thrilled about the situation but he realises this is the only way we can have a sibling for our lovely ds. Dh is a very sensible intelligent chap who has loads of empathy so if dh would like another's view of the same situation please do pm me. xxx


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Many thanks, ladies.  For info, Nat Gamble has responded re the SS:

"Unmarried couples will be able to apply for parental orders as from 6 April 2010, but it doesn't matter when you conceived or when treatment took place (it could even be decades ago).  Provided you apply within six months of the new rules coming into force, you can apply for a parental order.  That means it's absolutely fine to start treatment as soon as you like as an unmarried/ same sex couple and you do not need to wait until 6 April."

Hope you all have a lovely weekend.

BM x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

This parental order had been a sticking block before as I have been in contact with Natalie over a year ago when ARGC told me to focus on surrogacy and not my own eggs, as I have Asherman's syndrome and this means you have a very thin uterine ining problem.  I will try one more time with donor eggs so that psychologically I can say to mysekf I tried it, but if not surrogacy will be a route I will need to pursue.But COTS and SUK wouldn't accept us as unmarried couple becuase you could not get a parental order!

Wishing you lots of luck with your jounrey
L x


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## maymcg (Aug 26, 2009)

for BM

COTS do accept same sex and unmarried couples now.

I cant believe that someone who is a professional can be so wrong in what she said to you BM. I think it was scare mongering tactics (i have heard of a lot of councellors doing that). On the upside maybe they think that if they tell you loads of worst case scenarios and misjudged facts on the first appt and you still come back for more then you are prepared for surrogacy. I wonder how many people have gone to see the likes of her, got scared  less and never achieved the wonderful gift of being a parent - that really makes me mad  

I think if it were me i would be putting in a wee complaint about her BM!

May
Xx


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## CarolynB (May 17, 2008)

Hi BM

Big hugs for you babe.     

If she has given out such useless info then I am sure you could complain to BICA about her if you have the energy/inclination.  Why give surrogacy and surro angels such a bad wrap.     

Natalie is super. 

Very best of luck with dp.       

Carolyn xx


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

Hi, all - an update for you.  I felt that you were all quite right that something needed to be done about the social services stuff though I was uncomfortable complaining about the counsellor to the BICA without letting her know that the advice we'd been given was wrong - and giving her the chance to respond.  She called me last week, terribly upset at the misunderstanding.  She doesn't understand how it happened that we should think that she was talking about the law; she says that she was talking about the monetary issue ... that 'reasonable expenses' will be looked at by the courts and that, if they are concerned over the amount of money being given to the surrogate and that the spirit of the law has not been complied with, they may decide to put the baby into care until all is resolved.  I'm pretty smart (though I say so myself ...  ) and, as I told her, DP is a (very senior) solicitor and we both walked away thinking the same thing - that (as we found out) she'd given incorrect information.  She says that it's never happened to her before and she really was awfully concerned and apologetic.

So, I feel better about it now.  (I didn't touch on the 'business arrangement' terminology being inappropriate as didn't want to overload her though I will speak to her about it.)

On the plus side, DP has (finally!) decided to speak to someone about his concerns over being an older dad ... to a friend of his who, in his mid-50s, became a father of (unplanned) twins earlier this year - so that's something.

Hope you all had a lovely weekend.

BM xx


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## missmarple (Jul 23, 2009)

Well done bubble for tackling her. I am the sort of person that leaves a meal in a restaurant and then tells the waiter it was lovely, so I am in awe of your courage, it was the right thing to do.  

And yay for dh opening up and talking, that's great news.


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## BubbleMac (Apr 15, 2009)

... I think that I may be a premature old codger ... I get more comfortable with complaining as I get older!  

The counsellor had offered to see me to talk about my emotional issues relating to all the failed ICSI and I've just come back from seeing her.  She was actually very good.  She picked up on something I had not been able to identify - that I've felt pretty alone throughout the last 2 1/2 years ... convincing DP to go for having a baby, all the tx, the ups and downs, etc.  I'm going to see her more often to talk things through and she's said that she's "got my back", that she will be with me and I need not be alone.  I've had masses of support from ladies on FF though it's not the same, really, as sitting down and talking/crying about it all so I'm hopeful that I can deal with it all.  

Onwards and upwards ...

BM xx


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## maymcg (Aug 26, 2009)

So glad that DP is talking and that you are talking tooo

Xx


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