# Unregulated overseas clinics



## Anthony Reid

I keep hearing and seeing this phrase in the media "unregulated overseas clinics" and it seems to come from those who haven't been to these clinics.... or claim to have heard horror stories.

I'll admit, Being in the position I am - that I have heard a few horrible stories about certain foreign clinics over the years.... from using local prostitutes as egg donors, waif's & strays as sperm donors and yet I am still to see proof of this happening. The extremely corrupt parts of the world where these stories are focused does make me suspicious - however..... we still have no proper proof. If anyone does have 'reliable' proof - then please forward details, anonymously if you prefer 

So, Although this is likely to become a very heated thread - I'd really like to hear the general opinion from those who have had treatment abroad, comparisons with how they were treated in the UK and general opinions about it. I'd also like to hear how much money you saved by going abroad, and if you required a donor - how long you had to wait.

If you haven't been - but have considered going - I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you decided against going.

Please try to keep this thread on topic.


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## Ruth

Well you know my thought on this!!!

Having worked with fertility centres abroad for nearly 6 years now I must say that they may not have the HFEA breathing down their necks but do still have their own countries regulatory body overseeing what they do at least in Spain and Greece they do and those are the countries I have worked with.

They work to protocols and procedures just as UK clinics do and can be closed if they overstep these boundaries.

I think that couples going abroad for treatment are extremely well informed and research clinics in great depth before making the decision to go abroad for treatment and though there will always be some clinics that do not conform to standards that we expect (just as there have been cases in the UK in the past), the majority do and there are many hundreds of couples who have had very positive experiences of going abroad.

Ruth


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## sanielle

I'm American so this is overseas to me!    TBH (no offence!!! ) I am not to keen on UK hospitals and when I had surgery last year I chose to have it in Brussels. Cheaper, cleaner, safer I felt, and less risk of MRSA. I think people always have a natural feeling that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't but honestly. Research and you will see foreign  is not always a synonym for "worse"


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## Aenor

Yes, I do wonder whether there is sometimes a tiny bit of xenophobia operating? (I am NOT saying this is always the case and I'm not in a position to know much about these clinics, but it's just a question.)


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## VEC

Hello

I live abroad too, so UK is overseas for me.  I think that when we started investigating clinics, having the HFEA document that lists all clinics' statistics was very helpful to us.  I wish that such a thing existed for other countries.  We had two cycles in the UK - both at the ARGC and I have a lot of time for that clinic, even though it was extremely disorganized at times.  But couldn't fault the care and attention I was given.

When we opted to go down the donor route, it was for me a no-brainer.  Egg donation is illegal in Italy, and the waiting lists in the UK didn't seem worth the wait.  What's more it costs too much.

So off we went to Spain and Czecho.  For my (Italian) DP, going to the clinics in both those countries was a relief, as he found the rather house-like appearance of the ARGC a bit worrying (I Didn't, I thought it was dead posh).  Don't know how much money we saved, but it was cheap going to Czecho.

Spanish clinic was a lot more interested in sperm issues than anyone I'd come across in the  UK.

Very clean clinics, very very caring staff, particularly in Czecho - lots of time to explain procedures.

We had to wait 11 months for donor treatment.

Oh, and both Spanish and Czecho clinics we went to also had an elment of disorganization - perhaps that's just par for the course.

We had no regulatory bodies we could rely on in Czecho and Spain - but I found FF and I relied on word of mouth - which is what everyone does really, HFEA or not.  So, it is entirely thanks to th research that I did on FF as to clinic choice that we have a baby.  Yet another reason to thank FF - don't mean that to sound bottom-licky - it's the plain truth.

VEC X


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## dellie22

I'll try and keep it brief - we did not have a positive experience with our local NHS clinic here in the UK.  We do not think that we were well informed about our treatment.  Depending upon whom you spoke to the information changed - (drugs included in price originally, but then told we had to pay the drug company direct).  Appointments never ever ran on time, sometimes we were sitting around for the best part of an hour.  We had to pay up front before we started our treatment.  

After having a part funded cycle on the NHS which failed (we were originally informed that it would be a completely free go and then had to pay in excess of £2,500) we were informed that we would have at least at 18 month wait before our next go and the cost would be around £7,500.  We researched very carefully the posibility of going abroad as many clinics could offer us a cycle within a much shorter period of time.  It was a very difficult decision to make, but when you have the chance of becoming parents you have to sometimes take a risk.  Yes it was cheaper, but our main reasons for going were the shorter waiting list and far better success rates. Our price included ICSI as a standard procedure whereas in the UK this would have cost us an extra £700.00

We made our choice and travelled abroad.  Our chosen clinic was fantastic.  It was clean, our appointments took place on time and it did not matter if your transfer day fell at the weekend - you were seen on that day. The staff were professional and treated us with respect.  We had to pay a deposit six weeks before we left for the clinic and then the balance on the day that our treatment was concluded.    

I am not sure why there was such a huge difference in how the clinics operate, especially given that our clinics here in the UK are regulated so much, but one thing I know for sure is that the treatement we received abroad far outweighed our experience in the UK.  We have, of course been blessed with a beautiful baby boy.  When we come to extend our family we will not hesitate to return to the same clinic. 









May


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## olivia m

Hi Tony and all
I think there is no question that many overseas clinics could teach UK clinics lessons in organisation, communication, cleanliness and empathy. Many DC Network members feel they have had excellent care and customer service overseas. What does bother many of our members is the lack of information and the anonymity of donors in all European clinics. They know that their children may feel disadvantaged as a result of this...but feel time pressures of age and shortage of donors in the UK leave them little option. We encourage people thinking of going abroad to think through all the issues - including the child's perspective - fully before making the decision, and then if they go ahead, to do so positively and with eyes wide open to possible long-term implications. Here is our latest guidance document on this subject http://www.donor-conception-network.org/overseasdrs.html
Olivia


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## Sasha B

I dislike the term 'unregulated overseas clinic' because it brings to mind some shoddy and inferior shack in a back alley, when in fact my experience of clinics in three different European countries could not be further from the truth. I have had cycles in Spain, Poland and the Czech Republic and all three clinics were head and shoulders above the private clinics I have experienced in the UK in terms of professionalism, procedures, equipment and success rates. Out of the three clinics, although not regulated by the HFEA, but then why would they not being in the UK, two were and are regulated by professional recognized bodies in their own nations. Two of the clinics were also partnered with other well known fertility specialists in other countries such as the US and the UK. Being realistic, I know there are some dodgy clinics out there but they are few and far between. The majority of the oversees clinics are world class and do a fantastic job and they ARE regulated by bodies in their own country. I had first rate service from Dr's who cared about my personal situation and the time to discuss my protocol, treatment cycle and any other issues. All patients in the clinics I was treated at in Poland and Czech were given the mobile numbers of their Dr's, to be used in case of emergency (now you wouldn't find that in this country). Sadly, unless people have had firsthand experience of having treatment abroad, they will continue to believe the negative connotations given to clinics abroad by the media and to some extent by the HFEA as unscrupulous and substandard operators.

Sasha


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## laurab

I went abroad for my last treatment.  It was cleaner, the staff where politer and treated me with 100x more respect than the staff of my UK clinic, they fully consulted me about my treatment, more organised, it was alot cheaper than the UK (and that incldes flights an hotels), thy are more open to new protocols... oh and it worked! Hoorah!


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## LadyBugBaby

We went to Reprofit in the Czech Republic and our beautiful twin girls turned one last Wednesday. We were successful on our first attempt and have four frosties waiting for us. We had an awesome experience and have recommended them to several friends. The clinic was well run, caring, and efficient. We were frankly more impressed by the clinic than the well-known fertility doctor we used here in Los Angeles. We love Dr. Stepan!


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## roze

The question should be unregulated by whom?  Clearly if something isn't regulated by the HFEA then its not worth trying- not. I have not come across any such clinics either in Spain or the Ukraine- ISIDA in Kiev is heavily regulated by Ukrainian law and conforms to European standards and also German standards as a lot of their clientele are German. At both IVI and ISIDA you could eat off the floor it was so clean. Their hygiene practices were excellent.  I recall a London clinic where ) following a £4k IVF procedure) embryo transfers were done by a nurse in a messy t shirt , jeans and sneakers- unheard of in the clinics I have used- they would be appalled and so I am now as I thought it was the norm. Similarly Spanish clinics are regulated by the EU Tissue Directives and Spanish law, which is good enough for me. If people decide to use dodgy clinics then they need to take responsibility for this but as I said, I don't know how you might find one. 

As far as material facts go, I do know that the Bridge stopped using Romanian clinics some years back due to some unsavoury practices becoming apparent- not sure if they were the ones using prostitutes as donors but I suspect something of that ilk was happening inadvertantly hence the requirement for syphilis testing amongst many overseas clinics as a lifestyle screen. 

My own experience is that the overseas clinics I have been too are much cleaner , have higher standards of professionalism and customer service than the three private clinics I have been to in the UK. I could tell some more stories about certain UK clinics which I'll save for another time!

The world turns on its axis in countries outside the  EU and prior to its creation and that of the Human Tissue Directive and other policies adopted by the UK. Nothing I have heard of experienced of the HFEA has or will convince me that it acts in the best interests of people seeking fertility treatment in the UK.


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## billyjean

It was the best choice that i made going to the IRM clinic in the Ukraine. I had one to one help from the co ordinator that i could ring at any time, and i got my first BFP.

I've had two previous treatments in the uk, and felt disappointed in the lack of care. I can remember walking and getting a train on my first treatment for EC and subsequently ET, and feeling distressed as i was so uncomfortable. I was not told about the car service until i read about it, then had it for my next one. There was also no recovery part after ET.

The hospital in the Ukraine is not a state of the ART place, but everything was done professionally with your comfort in mind. Everything was also explained well. 

In future, if required i will always use an overseas clinic because of my experience. And it is thousands cheaper, even with hotel and flights. And i only had a 2 month wait for a donor. It was easy.


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## guccimama

Hello.
I wanted to add my two penneth..I have had 5 cycles so far 2 in the uk and 3 abroad. 
We were paying customers for all 5 tx's. Although I have a great respect for my uk clinic I would not go back there now I have been abroad. The tx I have recieved in the czech republic has been second to none. Very clean, organised and mostly i did not feel like a piggy bank. When I walked into the clinic in the uk i was taken aside to pay before anything could happen. Me and my DH where very upset when he went for his sperm sample, he was sent back out to get me to pay before he was allowed to do his stuff.. very embarrasing and not at all sympathetic, put in the smallest clinical room expected to do his thing with a women tapping on the door wondering if he was done. 
I have the upmost trust in my clinic abroad as does my hubby. It is also sooo much cheaper. Standard IVF is £2000 cheaper over there than at my clinic. Also I do not have good eggs, am too old to go on the waiting list for donor eggs and the waiting list is at least 2 years anyway. i do not have a choice if I want a baby other than to go abroad. I am not old by anymeans at 39. 
Just my opinion...have had some good tx in this country but unfortunatly my faith in the system was destroyed when my NHS consultant convinced me I did not need estrogen when I was pg with donor embies...I stopped them and my baby died within a week...mmm and I am supposed to trust a regulated system..stick it where the sun don't shine...sorry as I say personal opinion. 


gucci


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## ceci.bee

Hi just wanted to add our only experience of tx abroad was at CRMI at Cornell University in New York, and I know the US clinics aren't regulated. however in a total buyer's market over there they have to be good to suceed. I was blown away by the amazing quality of the care we got, attention to detail and support throughout the whole processes, I could not fault them and as a medical professional I have very high standards. we had a donor sperm backup, and it was very easy to organise and they were supportive.

Our clinic here was a top london one, with excellent stats but as the HFEA does not collect stats about our condition (azoospermia) we could not find the best place for tx in the UK, and went with the CRGH because they have a linked MF consultant. The care there was also excellent but not as detailed and the building frankly was pretty shabby.....
so would I go abraod again? yes most defo prob at Easter back to CRMI

C


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## Miranda7

We had treatment at two clinics in the UK and ine in Turkey. You can't compare the two - in Turkey we were treated with compassion, in a clinic where the staff knew my name and where the equipment was more modern than I ever saw over here.

It was cleaner, I had better monitoring, and I was treated as if I had enough intelligence to have a choice in my protocol. Wow.

And all that for less than half what I paid here, including a 4* hotel for 17 nights.

It was bloody lovely. 

My DH and I had about four gametes to rub together - him having been snipped 16 years before and me having diminished reserves. 
But in Turkey we felt they tried their absolute utmost for us.

I could go on and on about the stress, expense and shoddy treatment we suffered before going abroad. But heck, I can't be bothered, as those two of our gametes who got it on in Istanbul never sleeps and I'm knackered!

PS: Where are these horror stories? I've not heard any? I've heard dark mutterings... but no actual stories. I've heard terrible stories about tx over here, though.


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## Anthony Reid

Miranda7 said:


> PS: Where are these horror stories? I've not heard any? I've heard dark mutterings... but no actual stories. I've heard terrible stories about tx over here, though.


I get the occasional PM/email.... but I need proof before I can publish anything. I dont think we will ever have enough proof - unless of course a tv company wants to send in an investigative journalist.


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## wishingforanangel

Being in fertility treatments here in the U. S. sucks because it is not regulated. There are guidelines that the American doctors have to follow but it is not set in stone. We have crazy doctors who implant 8 embryos to a crazy woman who already has 4 to 5 kids and all 8 embryos took (not sure if the story of Octomom was heard in the UK) to my doctor who thinks I'm nuts for wanting to have only 2 embryos to be transferred. Also now I am not exactly sure where I am at in my treatments with my doctor here. I felt more comfortable using the clinic in London with the HFEA regulations. At least I knew what would happen with the expectation of some variations of the protocol. My experience with the Clinic in London was disorganized but it the staff was helpful. Thinking of returning to the UK for treatment but with the long wait list for what I need and hearing some of the negative experiences here in this thread...maybe not.

For me the expense of fertility treatments in the US and the UK is about the same...too much money...but for me the expense I had to endure in the UK was easier to deal with because the UK has a lot of history.


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## Bellini

Hello everyone.

To add my two penneth.... Whilst I've never been abroad I can only really comment on my tx in the UK (NHS). I found clinically the NHS to be pretty good, we haven't had to wait "too" long and the nursing staff and the doctors and technicians have always treated us (on the whole) with care and respect and with the utmost professionalism.

The only "complaint" I do have is throughout all this process, from my GP Practice, to my local hospital's gynae unit and to our clinic in London we have NEVER seen the same doctor, nurse, specialist or technician twice. It has been very frustrating to have to go over and over the same story each time and we have now discovered a possible link to my cycle failure and the fact that one part of the NHS didn't seem to talk to the other part of the NHS re. my thyroid issues.  I wonder if we had paid privately and gone to a smaller clinic then we might have had some sort of continuation of care from the same core team rather than the huge amount of people that have basically seen me half naked! 

As for abroad... well let's face it, sometimes desperate people take desperate measures and there's always going to be unscrupulous "clinics" that take advantage of people when they're at their lowest ebb who are willing to try anything.  

I wonder if the reason that those people that have been treated badly don't go to the press because IF is such a contentious issue (i.e. the Daily Mail brigade will roll out the old standard lines of "well, it was YOUR fault you went abroad for IVF - you shouldn't be messing with Mother Nature and adopt because it's 'that' easy") that it's no wonder people may be unwilling to talk about it openly?

Bellini xxx


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## Leaf

I've been to Spain. It is regulated, of course, but the regulations aren't quite the same as the UK! In fact the waiting times were quite long - many months. The clinic also required me to have a hysteroscopy to have a closer look at a fibroid, and I had that at the Spanish clinic as it was cheaper than in the UK. On subsequent treatments the waiting times were much shorter. The clinic will only implant 2 embryos - fine with me. I'm not sure if that is Spanish law or just my clinic. They say their donors are mostly university students, but who knows?

Due the regulations in Spain, DH and I were required to renew our blood tests every 6 months for HIV, syphilis, hepatitis B&C. I'm sure the local hospital must have thought were were sex workers... We were tested 3 times in all and that was a bit of a nuisance. 

Intervention has been minimal. I seem to have fewer drugs and scans than many treated in the UK. Every time I've asked about any additional therapy - e.g. steroids - my doc in Spain says they only use proven treatments. I guess that attitude has saved me a lot of money. I've been monitored at this end by Hammersmith Hospital, which I found expensive but reassuring.

x Leaf


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## BABY2

My experience abroad has been positive , we went to Poland and when my GP found out he raised an eyebrow and looked at me like I was mad  
Even though my pregnancies turned into miscarriages, I'll never have any qualms about going abroad for more TX.


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## Damelottie

I was lucky enough to have my baby after treatment abroad.

I didn't have a good experience with the UK clinics. The first didn't time my treatment right. The 2nd I'm still waiitng to call me back with an appt. I imagine after 2 years they perhaps aren't going to. I also liked the anonymity of the donors abroad.

My experince of my clinic was the same as many have posted here - very clean. efficient, friendly etc etc. But there were 2 things that made me even more impressed than with clinics here:

I was there having treatment at the same time as another single ff. We were due to have ET on the same morning and fly home the next day. Just before her appt she started to bleed heavily. The consultant examined her and found she had a cyst. There was no point doing the ET with that much blood loss. So, completely free of charge, he performed the necessary treatment for the cyst, and put her ET back to the next day - making sure we were still in time for out flight. Can you imagine anything like that happening here? I feel sure here, the treatment would have been cancelled _and_ she'd have had to go back through the system, possible via her GP, to get the cyst dealt with.

Secondly - when I went for my 2nd FET I arrived at the clinic and................ I hadn't sent the 'e' mail to confirm my appt     . OMG!! They were incredibly reassuring, fitted me in and it was all no problem at all. Again, I just don't believe that would happen over here

LL x


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## Mandamae

WOW  from what i've read i'm sure i'm going abroad for my next and final treatment!
I've had 2 with nhs (one we paid for) and although I know my consultant very well and he has the best bedside manner i have ever seen (i'm a nurse in the same hospital) the clinic was eithier very over run or unorginized as we always had to wait over an hour for our app, the 3rd tx was in a private hospital, they asked for a copy of all my notes so i did at a cost of £50 then when i took them to them they didn't even look at them and said they didn't need them  then after that tx failed i realised they never did a FSH test prior to tx? not sure if it's standard, I e-mail the HFEA and got a computer generated e-mail back saying anything you need to know ask the clinic!
I have until this morning been set on going to ARGC but a few things i've heard made me a littlte worried but i guessed they have the best results in England so they must be doing something right?
I'm sure we'll go abroad for our next and final tx.

mandamae


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## lotsky

Hello

Well I live in Holland where IVF is covered on your health insurance for all that need it, no matter what your age is. Waiting lists are not too long (around 6 months) but of course the pre-tests take their time. 
Hospitals here tend to be pretty clean, and pretty good as far as I have experienced. However for us it was culture which got in the way for me. Dutch culture is very much take a paracetamol for a broken leg and hope it goes away. (OK thats a bit extreme, but basically they will want to try IUI before IVF then IVF before ICSI even if you have a sperm problem.)
We ended up getting mis diagonosed because our hospital did not test my hubbys sperm in the same way as they do in the UK and we ended up going to a private UK clinic for a second opinion had ICSI at said private UK clinic and got pregnant straight away. 

Personally from my research I think there is a big difference in the UK between NHS patients, treatments and waiting lists and people who can afford to go to a private clinic. I think that is a big issue in the UK. 

In Holland because IVF is covered as standard for one and all (no postcode crap, and if you need it you can choose your clinic) then theres no Harley street posse as you have in the UK. 

Personally I have nothing but utmost praise for our Harley street clinic (LWC) as they gave us our children, but I did see the commercial aspects of it. Although helpful & personal IVF is obviously big business both in the UK and abroad. People will sell their right leg sometimes for a chance of a child, and its just ashame I think that clinics both in the UK and abroad have cottoned onto that aspect. 

I dont believe overseas clinics are unregulated. They are regulated in Holland, Ive got friends who had treatment in Belgium and France and they are definitely regulated there. I dont know about Asia, Australia and the USA, but I do think that each country has its own set of rules, and what we may consider 'unregulated' or irresponsible (i.e Octomum having 6 embies put back) is not really unregulated, its just another country with another set of rules than what we may be used to in the UK. 

Each and every one of us when we go abroad know what country we are going to and know the rules of the land (or at least have the chance to look the rules up on the internet ) and know that when we go abroad we are going into new turf. 

Going abroad has pro s and cons, (donor eggs where non are avaliable, skipping a waiting list etc) and I dont think we can complain if after the event we decide its not how we expected or what we wanted. Once we get on foreign soil we have to go with the 'new rules' and if we dont like the new rules, then we should stick with the bread we know,i.e the UK. 

Thats just my 2p s worth!

Lotsky x


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## Lilith

Hi,

I have had 2 ICSIs in the Uk and one in Mexico. As a whole, the UK clinics seem to follow instructions, kind of recipits. Very conservative in their approach. For example, genetic tests are not suggested until 3-4 BFN. In Mexico, because everything is private and unregulated one has to be very careful. The appts are longer so one can discuss lots of things with the doctor, the doctors and nurses tend to call back as soon as possible and treatments tend to be more personalised. doctors recommend different tests after 1-2 BFN. But one can count the good Mexican clinics in the whole country with one hand. As a Mexican who spent 8 years in the UK, I trust more the UK clinics than the Mexicans only because they have had more experience and are regulated. But I found couple of Mex clinics that as a whole are as good as the top UK clinics, mainly those with American and Canadian patients.


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## Laura36

Thanks for this thread Tony.  I have only had UK tx at NHS clinic (one NHS IVF and one I paid for, plus 2 IUI).  My UK experiences have been fine but now that I need DE IVF I am going to Reprofit.  And the comments on this thread have massively reassured me about overseas tx and Reprofit in particular.  It was a no brainer decision for us as cheaper than Spain and great results plus all contact so far (on email) has been straightforward, easy to understand and prompt.


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## lovemylabrador

We are fortunate to have a most wonderful 8 week old daughter following tx in Spain. We couldn't be happier.

For us it wasn't a matter of either/or in terms of tx abroad, but shared care btw our UK and Spanish clinic, who have very close links (total cost about double our 'regular' ivf tx in uk). There was no waiting list for the DE part of the tx in Spain. We found ourselves in very safe, caring hands with  both clinics, and the people who dealt with us to be full of integrity and professionalism in both places. We have no worries that there might be anything unsatisfactory in the way donors were recruited, neither did our wonderful uk doctor who pointed us towards the de tx in Spain, and in whom we have every confidence in providing us with ethical options. 

We preferred our donor to be anonymous. We do not feel that our choice of going abroad may leave our daughter feeling disadvantaged later in life - she will have the most loving, secure upbringing, and know how much she was wanted. We will guide and support her through any reaction she may have to the DE issue.

If we decide to undergo further tx, we would do it all exactly the same way...


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## DaisyDee

We have had 4 tx now (although one was cancelled) so 3 proper goes!  2 were here in the UK followed by 2 in Norway. We felt very let down by our UK clinic and in particular the consultant who spent 10 minutes with us, it almost felt like we were in a production line waiting for our number to be called (the nurses were however very kind, but it never felt personal).

In Norway it was the complete opposite.  The consultant spend 2 hours with us pre treatment, looking at every bit of family history, previous treatments, meds used etc etc.  He was completely thorough and so very honest.  Straight talking and no mincing of his words..............I liked that.  The clinic was wonderfully modern and bright, funky artwork on the walls, vibrant colours and shiny clean.  It was impeccable!  The nurses were so caring and friendly, all coming out to hug us and wish us luck for our treatment (I think that took my DH by surprise  ) but in actual fact he was more relaxed during our tx in Norway than in the UK, sadly as much as we wanted our "viking" baby, it wasn't meant to be. But the tx/care there was worth every penny we spent!!

Having first thought that that was it for us as far as tx goes we are now looking at our options (prompted by our Norway consultant).  So we are on the "prowl" for a clinic in which to have  DE tx and we will absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt go abroad for this, Reprofit and Spain (somewhere ?) are our options.  It has been wonderful reading all the posts on here about the different clinics......it was on FF that we finally decided on Norway and I will be sure to check my next clinic choice on FF too.  THANK YOU!


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## dtw01

I am having treatment in Greece, hoping to have my 3rd go this year.

In my opinion the clinic is better organised and certainly more caring than the clinic i used in the UK.

In the Uk i was treated purely as a statistic !

I would also say that my doctor is totally contactable at all times and even gives you her home number if you have any questions - would you get that in the Uk (i doubt it ).

H x


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## Miranda7

Lillypad - there's another option, and that's a tandem tx with the Jinemed, where I went. You go out there and are stimmed, but have a donor as backup, waiting in Cyprus, where gamete donation is legal (Turkey is Muslim, you see). Just thought I'd add that in case you hadn't seen it.

xx


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