# Attempting 2nd cycle and having issues with my employer..........



## Hope2508 (Dec 18, 2012)

Hi all,

We had a failed NHS cycle in Feb and are due to start our 2nd cycle @ LWC Darlington 5th July. 
Obviously with us having to pay for this cycle it's even more important to us that we end up with that BFP at the end of it (and I'm going stir crazy thinking it could possibly end up any other way   )

I asked for advice via my HR in Dec of last year about their policy in regards 'leave' for treatment and the procedures etc.
They initially said 'take out of annual leave or take as unpaid' yet when I went back with my argument against each of those and also pointed out that they give leave for 'adoption' such as time off for meetings/assessments etc they backtracked and sent me an email to state - 
'Just to confirm that we would record this as an absence for female health, full pay. Although this would increase your Bradford points we wouldn't pursue an investigation or disciplinary with regards to any of the absences linked to the IVF treatment. This also wouldn't have an impact on your bonus next year.  '

I had my RTW interviews with my line manager and all she kept saying was 'and as these instances are ''ring fenced'' like she was doing me a massive favour! She made me feel so awful- especially when it ended in a BFN.

So, I emailed my line manager again last week with the dates of my scans (they are early morning but I will be late into work due to travel time and I've made it quite clear I will more than make up any 'lost' time) and also put in the email that dates I've been preliminary give for egg collection and then embryo transfer.
So, she's left it all week to come to me at 4.18 Friday afternoon, knowing I was due to finish at 4.30 to 'have a quick word'
Well, you know when you're getting took into the office that's its not for anything good is it!

So, out she came with it- cold and unfeeling as a dead fish- ''HR have asked me to let you know that your time off for this round of treatment will have to be taken unpaid or out of annual leave''.
My immediate reaction and reply to her was ' I'll speak to my solicitor then' she was totally not expecting that so asked me why I'd find that necessary? I replied ' to get the correct legal advice' . She then has the cheek to tell me that the way it was managed in Feb was a 'one off & exception' so if I had an issue with this I would need to raise a grievance! 

So, my whole weekend has been torn between thoughts of doing the right thing and taking the time as unpaid (which will have a massive impact financially on the situation as we're paying for this cycle) or giving them a big 2 fingers up and getting my GP to sign me off with work related stress until the treatment & embryo transfer are done and maybe even until after the 2WW! 
I'm so upset about it all but the DH keeps saying I have to stop stressing about it as this is our time and that its just a job.

Anyone have a similar story and any advice please?

xx


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## Puglover1980 (Mar 7, 2013)

The approach will vary wildly depending on the organisation's guidelines for leave and absence, but I'm going to try to make some generalisations!

There is no legal requirement for any employer to allow time off for fertility treatment. Obviously you would hope that they would be understanding and accommodating, but they don't have to be.

I know how hard IVF is, believe me, but it seems to me that they've been quite understanding up to this point. You were actually very lucky that you were able to have time off for your first cycle and not have to take leave for it. I'm sure you don't feel lucky because you're having to deal with all of this in first place, but in terms of standard HR policies IVF is not deemed essential medical treatment. (Obviously to us it is essential though.)

I know you must be really upset, but I definitely wouldn't go for your second option of getting signed off by your GP for work-related stress. You've already told them your dates and they will most likely smell a rat. If they investigate you, you could face dismissal for gross misconduct, as you would essentially be lying. Even if they didn't take it that far, you would be setting up a very awkward situation for yourself at work, which isn't a good idea if you're planning on going on maternity leave in 9 months time (fingers crossed).

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh. Ultimately if there isn't a specific clause in your HR leave policy about time off for fertility treatment, then it's at the discretion of the management, so seeing your solicitor wouldn't achieve anything I'm afraid.

I was lucky that my line manager agreed to let me make up the time for scans and blood tests during the stimming phase, but I took took 2 weeks' annual leave for the time of EC and ET etc. I would have felt very uncomfortable being signed off, as I wasn't ill and this was something I was choosing to do that my health didn't depend on (if you see what I mean). However, I know lots of people do go down the signing-off route. My clinic would have been happy to give me a generic signing-off letter had I asked for one. Unfortunately because you've already told work your dates and they've told you what their policy is going to be on this occasion, I'm not sure this is going to be an option for you.

Your husband is right - it's just a job and what is most important is that you stay calm during this time. Just take the time as leave (can't you use holiday so there is no financial impact?) - that way everything will be above board and you can be totally relaxed and not give work a second thought. I definitely think they should be flexible with the scans though, as you certainly don't want to take leave for those - that woud be pointless seeing as it's a 15-minute appointment every few days. I'm sure that if you show willing in terms of taking leave for the more significant parts of the treatment (EC, ET etc.) then they will be more flexible about the scans and allow you to stay late or whatever to make up the time you miss in the morning.

I wish you all the best and loads of luck for your upcoming cycle. xxxx


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## Ajbpepsi (Apr 14, 2013)

Hi Hope2508,

I am not sure if you are able to see this thread:

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=306942.0

Its in a private area - I had same issues as you until recently - I started this thread above.

I totally understand how upsetting this is, and how stressful it is just to have to manage this situation. Its not fair that you should have to worry about work as well as your treatments. I did quite a lot of research into this as well, there are a lot of links on thread above as well. Sadly, most employers don't have a treatment policy. I thought I was being open and honest with my employer, it made me feel better to be honest and I thought they would understand. It seems it back fired on me a bit. In the future if I have to do this again I am going to have to just do it without telling them exactly what I am doing, maybe get doctor to sign me off for medical issues/stress.

The important thing is for you to feel relaxed, calm and stress free for your treatment - so much easier said than done. But probably you should take some of the critical days off as holiday if you can as it will make you feel better knowing these are your days and work then can't touch them. It is very annoying to have to take off as holiday or unpaid leave, but if this is only choice you should just do it to make yourself feel better.

The other things I did to de-stress myself about my work situation were acupuncture, meditation, counselling, fetility yoga, exercise, time out with my DH - these things helped me to get my head in the right direction and to force my body to relax a bit.

If you can't see the link above, I can post some of the links back in here again for you...

As your DH has said, it is only a job - yes, I still find this hard to hear because I worked so hard to get where I am and of course its probably a job you love, but your personal goals are important to you right now, and sometimes you have to weigh up whats more important in your life....

I really hope you can find a way round this and that you can go into the treatment feeling relaxed.

Good Luck!

xx


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## Bumble Bus (Apr 23, 2013)

Hi Hope,

I'm lucky enough to have a really supportive employer who use their discretion to make it feel easy for me (so far).  However, I feel really strongly that there is such a glaring gap in the law and that it's not fair that there's so much inconsistency in how people are treated.  Realistically, it wouldn't cost your company anything to allow you a day off for each of EC and ET and it would mean you feel goodwill towards them and are more likely to be a happy productive worker!

Anyway, hopefully you will find some useful info on Ajbpepsi's link, including the link to Infertility Network's fact sheet for employers.  If you feel up to it you could show this to your boss/HR?

Also, my understanding that the technicality of egg collection at least, is that technically, even if you have to take holiday or unpaid leave up to the time of the appointment, you can use sick leave for afterwards as you would be unable to work after the sedation.  I'm sure I read that on here somewhere.

You could try having a look on the legal advice threads too.

At the end of the day your DH might be right though.... you need to think about conserving your energy for your treatment and concentrating on being positive for that.  If (when) you are successful, you will forget all about this.

I am at LWC in London.  Hopefully they do a great job for both of us.  Best of luck.

x


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## Hope2508 (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you all ladies, I'm in work again today and feeling awful.
The line manager didn't even give me a 'good morning' when I came in the office and when I logged on there was her email advising as she'd said and that policy states (I've yet to find this elusive policy!) that as she said annual leave or unpaid.

Puglover1980- what did you mean in my employer will 'smell a rat'- surely if I'm signed off work with stress then there is no rat to smell- they are causing me stress at work in their approach in managing this and also showing no support to me whatsoever. Regardless of wether or not I'm also having treatment doesn't change the fact that I'm stressed at work.

Ajbpepsi- I can't open the link I'm afraid but are currently undergoing Acupuncture support and the practitioner is lovely and I'm actually enjoying it.

I have one week (5 days) of annual leave left to last me the whole of the rest of the year which includes Xmas and i find it unfair that using this time which I would see as being for relaxation (and dealing with the aftermath of treatment) and spending time with family (who all live abroad) is what my employer expects me to do for hospital treatment appointments. The treatment in Feb was given as sick leave so I was not counting on it being any different this time round so didn't plan on needing annual leave to cover it.
Also, with the bill we're facing racking up to £5/£6k and the treatment not guaranteed to work at any time- 5 or more days 'unpaid leave' would have a significant effect on our budgeting for the treatment and travel costs for treatment which is yet more stress.

Its just all a nightmare.
I actually sat in the car park before coming into work this morning dreading it and almost cried.

We are seeking the advice of an Employment law specialist and will see how best to challenge this as with no company policy how can they treat 2 cycles so differently and it no be challenged.


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## Ajbpepsi (Apr 14, 2013)

Hi Hope,

I am posting some links from the other thread (I think you can't see it you have to have made so many posts before you can see it - not sure):

I wrote to the infertility charity in UK for advice and they sent me a useful pdf file on this subject:

http://www.infertilitynetworkuk.com/uploaded/Fact%20Sheets/Employment%20Issues.pdf

I also spoke found this link to human rights comission:

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/before-the-equality-act/guidance-for-employers-pre-october-10/guidance-on-managing-new-and-expectant-parents/quick-checklists-for-employers/fertility-treatment/

Some companies have a policy - Asda is the best one it seems: Introduced a policy some years ago: http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_11714.asp (I think we might even have a thread in the news section for this)

Also this was interesting: http://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3319%3Aivf-and-the-law&catid=57%3Aemployment-articles&Itemid=25

Useful link here on your rights https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/32174/10-1168-pregnancy-and-work-employee.pdf

I'm sorry its such a nightmere for you. I think what Puglover was trying to say was - your company will know if you say you are sick what you are actually doing - because they already know what dates you want to do the treatment around, so they will know that you are being signed off sick for this. However, truly if this is making you so stressed, your doctor can sign you off for stress leave for 2 weeks. When you have a sick note the employer has to respect this.

Maybe, you don't tell them anything else going forward. And you just let them believe it is sick leave in future. Its a bit hard as they do know your plans, but they should not ask you and for all they know you might not be doing it any more.

Also, I just did a survey on Media section: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=308144.0 - these kind of surveys are the kind that we will only spread the word out to other people/companies by more people doing such surveys - I did this to make me feel better and to make me feel like I could do some good in the world by spreading the word - who knows if it works/what comes of it - but it made me feel like I had done something on this topic.

Again, I am sorry you are going through this. Hope you can find a way. Its great you are doing acupuncture, its helped me so much to relax. Lots of luck,

xx

/links


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## CHOCOCHINE (Mar 11, 2013)

I think the ec should be sick as yku cant work after sedation or drive or make legal decisions. Its a pre booked medical treatment. I hope that it works out for you and most of all you get a pregnancy goodluck


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## Puglover1980 (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm sorry I wasn't able to tell you what you wanted to hear. What I meant was that by going for your second option you're going to be making things really difficult for yourself at work. My phrasing probably wasn't the best, because of course you're feeling genuine stress. I'm sorry - I didn't mean to imply that you aren't. But I don't think it's a good move to ask for the time off and when your employer doesn't agree in the way you were hoping you then get yourself signed off. This isn't going to do much for your relationship with your employers. I'm a manger and I wouldn't be very impressed if one of my members of staff chose to do it that way. I'm just being honest. You're well within your right to pursue that route if you want, but I don't think you'd be doing yourself any favours at work. Whilst legally they may not be able to do anything, I'm sure we all know stories of people whose lives have been made miserable at work by their managers with little they can do about it. I'm not saying this will happen, but it could.

I hope the employment law specialist helps. They may be able to argue that how you were treated the first time set a precedent for all previous cycles, but unless the policy was updated to reflect that I don't think that will work. Ultimately this sort of thing will always be at the discretion of the management and while I agree that they should be consistent, they don't have to be. It's really unfair and it must have been awful when you were informed that it was going to be different this time.

How much time were you hoping to have off? Perhaps you could see if your employer would agree to a mix of things - maybe ask for EC and the day after as paid sick leave because it's technically an operation (albeit not a medically essential one in their eyes), use two days' annual leave and have the rest as unpaid leave. That way you're making a decent compromise, not using all your leave and not having too many days unpaid either. What do you think?

All the best.


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## Keeping busy (Apr 13, 2011)

Hey, I worked for a local authority when I was going through treatment and they had a specific IVF / Fertility Treatment policy which I presume had been agreed by unions etc. However, it basically said that I had to take everything as either unpaid and I was entitled to a maximum of 28 days unpaid or as annual leave and that I could bank annual leave up to a maximum of 10 days and carry it into my next leave year for treatment. I think it is pretty standard for employers to see fertility treatment as none essential and therefore not to be very supportive off it. I left work so we could have more treatment as I was finding managing work and treatment to stressful. I appreciate that I am very lucky we can live on my husbands salary and I am able to make some money working freelance. Good luck xx


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