# CLOMID OR GONAL



## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Have read a couple of comments (old posts) that clomid for those of 40 and over does not work.

  Can anyone verify this?  I am 41 in August and have just been prescribed clomid and hcg for my second iui

Jue


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## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

Hi Jue Jue, in Lesley Regan's book she says ..."clomiphene is invariably unsucessful in treating women over the age of 40 years *when there is no evidence to suggest they are not ovulating*. Indeed, in this situation it is likely that the ony result will be the occasional release of an abnormal egg, which if it does get fertilised, will not implant or will miscarry soon after." It's on page 213 if you want to take a peek in the book shop. She's an expert on miscarriage but the book is full of other useful info. After chlomid I was put on Gonal and my new consultant says now that that also is not useful if you are ovulating naturally. My previous consultant who put me on the Gonal told me I wasn't getting pregnant because I wasn't ovulating, but I've since found out that I am ovulating in every cycle, he didn't bother to give me any scans to check that. I did get pregnant on the Gonal though, but it was slow-developing and miscarried.


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

My answer would be that over 40 you really need to get a move on and use the 'big guns' as it were to get more bang for your buck.

My advice would be to move straight to iui with ivf doses of stims. meds (e.g. gonal f, menopur etc). Use exactly the same meds. protocol as ivf but for iui. This gives you a better chance than clomid IMHO.

What is your antral follicle count? Your hormone profile (FSH, E2, LH, etc)? Have you had these done recently? This information will help your clinic plan an appropriate protocol for you.

It is recommended that over 40s do not use clomid and that if they do, it should be for no more than 3 months.

Here is a question and answer about clomid and iui from Geoffrey Sher one of the top fertility doctors in the US (SIRM clinic). It may help you.

http://forums.haveababy.com/lofiversion/index.php?t1370.html

My advice. Go to a very good clinic with good live birth rates from over 40 women. Have all appropriate checks beforehand. (e.g. uterus, tubes, thyroid, clotting, infection, karyotype etc). Try iui no more than 2 more times with full ivf stims. meds (including orgalutran and trigger) and move on to ivf (again at a top clinic). This is the only way to maximise your chances as time is critical for you.

Best
Daisy
xx

/links


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Each step I take brings with it so  much to understand and anyalyse , it is incredible as I am sure you have all learnt by now, so thanks for the responses.

"To give a normally ovulating woman Clomiphene in the knowledge that she will, in any case, only release one egg at a time defies all logic".

This statement is of course worrying for me.

First iui was natural, it was without tests well except for general bloods.  As result was a  BFN, read up on clomid thought this was the way to go so spoke with the doctor yesterda (not for very long I might add ) and she said " i hear you're thinking about clomid and hcg shot", i said "Yes What do you think" and she replied, "Yes I think you should go for it".  just got prescription.  And now I see the above, so confusing really.

I requested fsh day 3 awaiting this result

Progesterone day 21 came in at 29.1 and she says prolactin fine as was fsh for that cycle day.

She says there is no reason to suspect am not ovulating but i only had one scan which was on day 9 , 2 ovaries each 13mm and lining I think at 0.9 on that day also.  Asked do i need to have any additional scans and she said no.  and advised i go in for iui 3 days later, but lh did not show until 4 days later so went in 5 days after the scan.  My period is usually 27 to 28 days .

How can i be sure i have ovulated i assume it is from a scan?  And what is an antral follicle count never heard of it, it was never mentioned to me at all.

I would love to go to the top clinic here but canot afford  can afford 2 more iuis just about and that was with a loan.


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Could do another natural  iui next week but really , is there any point i feel if progesterone a little on the low side?

  Just feel have wasted a whole cycle.  clinic are really beginning to annoy me now as they just are not thinking about my age.    Sorry feeling a little low and angry at the same time today.

There does seem to be much info out there to suggest clomid and being over 40 is a no no but it doesnt actually say why this is the case.  Age and  progeserone being a little on the low side seem to be main factors for me.  

Maybe will see what FSH day 3 and that may help decide.

Jue


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## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

Jue jue we're talked before on the IUI boards so you know I have a lot of scans, that's the only way I was able to find out that I was ovulating despite what my consultant told me.  You had a scan which showed you have two follicles (you meant that, didn't you, not ovaries?) and the only way to find out whether you've ovulated is to have one on a later date .  For instance I had one on day 11 and there was one follicle, on day 12 it was gone, - because I had ovulated.  Maybe there's another way to know, I don't know.  RE Chlomid, that's not true about the number of eggs, I had 6 on both chlomid cycles, my issue with it is the way in which it works does not (apparently) increase the pregnancy rates in over 40's.  I think if you are ovulating you have a chance with IUI, after all that's why I'm doing it! Re Daisy, I agree with Daisy that it may be worth trying with Gonal, but I wouldn't go for ivf levels personally, it may not be necessary, it depends on your response.  I usually get five follicles on 75iui of Gonal and that is plenty because they like to give you the shot when a single follicle gets to 18mm, so you aren't going to 'use' the other ones anyway.  All you want is one or two, more than that at 18mm and they will probaby refuse to do the IUI because of the risk of multiples.  

Regarding progesterone, if it's on the low side you can ask for pessaries, lots of women take them .


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Urban girl 

yes i recall chatting previously, but  to be honest i find it incredibly difficult to keep up with everyone on here, it aint easy with 

so many different treatments views etc.  I did ask my doctor about ways to increase  progesterone and she said there is nothing out there that is proved to increase it so will do a little more research on the pessaries.  thanks for that

Jue


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## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

Was she talking about increasing it naturally?  Because i thought everyone took it after ET in IVf, usually via injections, that's what I've been given for this, my first cycle.  But for stimulated IUI/ timed cycles I was given pessaries.  Lack of progesterone is a really big deal so it's commonly prescribed.


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

I dont know what ET is ?  you're starting ivf right|?

Will ask her again, but she defo said no to anything available for progesterone inncrease.  Would wonder really.

My progesterone though wasnt too bad at 29.1.  Well that s what she has lead me to believe.

Jue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

We are talking about two separate issues here.  The progesteron test you had (which was 29.1) was a day 21 test to see if you are ovulating.

The progesterone issue that urbangirl is talking about is extra progesterone support which is give as standard during an ivf cycle after embryo transfer (ET).  This is because the body does not naturally produced enought progesterone to support a pg in an ivf cycle post embryo transfer and you need extra.

Some clinic add extra progesterone support after insemination with an IUI cycle, just for a belt and braces approach.  However, with IUI, the body should produce natural progesterone to support pg.  

Hope this helps,
Daisy
x


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi Daisy,

    I see.  so progesterone should be ok at 29.1.  am wondering now with that info should i go ahead and do another natural iui next week as have to wait for next cycle to introduce clomid.  What do you think Daisy?  if you dont mind me asking, i just hate to waste a month without treatment.

Jue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

Well the month you were tested presumably showed you did ovulate? That's all it tells you.

If I were you, I would invest the money in a medicated iui. Just using FSH injectibles. Forget the clomid and just move straight on to medicated iui. Natural iui a waste of time at your age IMHO. You need to get a move on with stronger treatment.

What are your options with the clinic you are at now? What are their success rates with women over 40 on iui protocol? You need to get this info. Knowledge is power and unfortunately in this situation the learning curve is steep without much time to waste.

Are your tubes clear? Is your uterus ok (no polyps/fibroids)? These are essential for iui.
Have you had your thyroid tested recently?

You need to do an iui cycle when you have good FSH/E2 results to maximise the effect of the stimulating meds (your FSH levels may fluctuate month to month). So you need all this information to make an informed choice rather than rushing blindly into another natural cycle.

IMHO it is important to prepare as much as possible and use your money on a cycle where your chances are highest. This means good as possible FSH/E2 taken on day 2-4 of cycle. Then start you with highish dose of FSH injectibles plus shot to delay ovulation then trigger shot and progesterone pessaries post insemination for extra support.

Will your clinic do a cycle like this for you?? Can you discuss this with them now?

I would also post your questions on the IUI board for more info. But over 40, you need to be thinking about a plan b asap. (e.g. ivf etc).

Ask advice on this board:-

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=7.0

Best,
Daisy
x


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## ElsieF (Nov 26, 2009)

Jue Jue
I agree with Daisyg.
When I asked my doc about clomid he said the big problem with clomid is that it also thins your womb lining - and that is something you DON'T want at 40+. (I looked in to one of the US protocols of 'mini ivf' which uses clomid for older ladies.. and they don't use it for iui, and when they do it for ivf they don't put the embryos back in that cycle, but wait for the next cycle so that the lining is back to normal) 

Ovulation test kits fro the chemists will tell you when you are ovulating. They are pretty accurate and tell you before the ovulation - which is rather more useful than after   


Are you seeing an actual fertility doctor? If not then you ought to immediately. 
I am continually shocked at GP's recommendations for fertility tests / treatment and how they treat people aged 40 and over as if they had all the time in the world    (I am still smarting from the 9 months wasted due to just plain wrong advice from my GP when I was 40 (oh how often  I wish I could have those 9 months back!)) 

good luck and   
babydust!

elcf


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

Elcf has hit the nail on the head.  If you are not with a fertility clinic now then you are wasting time.  GPs are not qualified to treat you effectively.  Save your money and invest in iui with a top fertility clinic...

Best,
Daisy
xx


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Well have decided to mail my clinic with a few queries alright , need to requeste oestadil and amh levels it seems and yes they 

are fertility experts in their field.

  A polyp was discovered during my last iui treatment and i have been referred to the hospital for removal.  I am a little worried about it as I have a history of cin grade 3.  Not sure how long I will be waiting but hopefully not too long.

To be honest I ve decided  I wont be doing IVF so sticking with iui and that will be it, if it does not work. 

Daisy what do fsh injrectibles do and if i dont take the clomid would a hcg injection on its own be any good.  Will ask my clinic this anyhow tomorrow and see what they say.  Hopefully i will be able to sit down again and review. 

jue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Sorry not much time to answer this am, so quick...

Clomid and FSH are ways of medically stimulating your ovaries to produce more follicles and therefore potentially increase your chances of getting more egg for release and fertilisiation and higher chance of pg.

At your age, clomid can have a negative effect.  FSH is a less harsh drug which may stimulate your ovaries more effectively to produce more follicles and potentially increase your chances.

Pointless taking hcg on it's own because without extra medical stimulation (e.g. FSH meds) your ovaries may or may not only produce one egg and this does not increase your chances at all.  You are over 40 and your chances of a live birth are already low.  You need to have fairly high power protocol in order to try and get pg.  Rest is a waste of your time and money.

List your questions and send email to clinic.  Include all suggestions on this thread and see what they say.  Ask them what success with LIVE BIRTHS they have had via IUI and IVF over 40 at their clinic.  This is important to find out whether they are the right clinic for you.  If they have never had any live births over 40 - I would walk away from them right now.

Daisy
x


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks guys, I spoke with councellor on the phone last night and this morning mailed or some questions so will see what 
happens from here.  in the meantime will check out the link you provided.  

jue


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi,

Hate this process I really do. 


The  clinic nurse rang me today and we chatted about treatment etc.  She told me the doctors at the clinic are not fertility specalists , that they  are expert with iui only and prescribe clomid and hcg injection but not fsh injectables.  that i could be referred elsewhere if i felt i needed a stimulated cycle, pity this wasnt explained at the initial consulation.

Not impressed because at my very first meeting i told the doc i had looked at other clinics and  basically asked her if this one would be able to do all possible to achieve pregnancy.  It was never explained to me that I could be referred on somewhere else, basically they are expert with iui one doctor not too keen on clomid but other doc was ok to prescribe it. 

~all i know is that i feel i have wasted money , i have tried to drag information out of them

When i asked about clomid originally and enquired about coming in to discuss she said there was not need.  

also they did the iui knowing there was a polyp there and are now asking for polyp to be removed before next treatment.  Feel like asking for a refund to be perfectly honest.

Fertility specalist thats a good one!

Daisy G thanks for advising me to ask further questions.  

Jue


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

So frustrating all of this 

feel like giving up and only started in Feb.

Went to another clinic for a consultation and really did not like the guy's manner at all.

Anyhow had to put that aside and be objective.  

he says clinic have no breakdown for women of 40 plus doing iui.

He is recomending tamox and fsh injectibles for 2 cycles and then would recommend ivf (which defo cant do cause cannot afford).

wasnt really interested in by hormone results and says the clinic have stopped doing fsh day 3 and focus on amh.  I feel they can say whatever they want and clealry profit is a reason they are set up these private clinics.  no regulation in ireland so it is extremely difficult.  Only a handful of clinics

He was not very optimistic for me AND worst sperm is ordered "usually" from Denmark and takes 2 months.

Thinking will stay with clinic i started with for another cycle  and go with the clomid and hcg.  i was checking out another site and some women over 40 are using clomid.  I asked him about using it and got no direct answer.

so really am more confused than ever.  

Jue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

Here is my advice.  Do not go for a cycle now.  Wait until you have the sperm and have a definite answer about whether to operate on your polyp which could cause failure and/or miscarriage.  If you cycle now you are wasting your money.  2 months in the scheme of this will make no difference.

You need to find out what you E2 is as it affects FSH measurement.  They should have tested for this at same time as FSH/LH.  Your FSH at 10 is normal for your age and does not mean you cannot get pg.  It means you may need higher doses if FSH stims. meds in an iui or ivf cycle.  

Your FSH/E2 does fluctuate each cycle, so you may find a better result on another cycle. However, your age is the critical factor and FSH tells you nothing about the quality of your eggs or whether or not you can ge pg, only how hard your body has to work to produce follices/eggs.

I agree that you should do max. 2 iuis then move to IVF if possible.  Is there any chance of your going to another clinic like the Lister in London?  You would really increase your chances.
If as you say, you can only afford iuis, then you need to get the best value and chance possible.  That may mean waiting (a short while) until all this is sorted and you are at the best possible place.

You have to be assertive and proactive in this business of getting pg at your age.  It is a steep learning curve I know.

Your fertility doctor is recommending tamoxifen and FSH for iui.  I would go with this but use high doses of FSH plus ovulation suppression injection and hcg trigger (just like an ivf cycle). Can you ask about this??  It is not good news that their over 40 results are not available.  

I would also ask this doctor what their results are (for all ages) for tamoxifen/iui protocol and ask if you can do an ivf protocol but using IUI instead.

I assume your fallopian tubes are clear and uterus ok (apart from polyp which you need an answer on).  Is your thyroid ok?

Your other clinic is a waste of time (clomid/hcg) do not bother with it.  Use your money where it matters, either by travelling to the Lister, or at the new clinic plus an ivf cycle if you can.

Sorry to be harsh, but you need to be very assertive about this.

Daisy
xxx


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi Daisy

  Directness is what I desperately need so thanks.

  Firstly I will ring the hospital tomorrow regarding the polyp as you advise

I wil l  ask my present clinic to send me to get my oestradil done, i think that is day 3 which should be next week.  Hate asking them but will bite the bullet.  I feel they feel i am annoying them with questions etc.

I just had a look at the lister, are you with them ?  did you get iui there previously,  they seem to be pretty expensive but will take another look it will mean alot of planning, flights and cash but will consider.

I must check again what exactly this new doctor is recommending, but yes he says its like a mini ivf , as in the drugs.  The clinic is meant to pretty good its called Simms.

No have not had tubes uturus checked as yet,  but he has recommended it alright.  Am a little resistant to amh cause if its low what is the protocol then he says nothing can be done?  so whats the point in wasting more money on this test i am feeling  he recommended thyroid also

Daisy you'r a star, thanks so much I really really you have made things a little easier in my mind.

Feel selfish talking about me all the time , i hope you are well where are you at?

Jue


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

this is their site

http://www.sims.ie/


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

Sims results look quite good. I would post on the Ireland board to get more first hand opinion and info. to help you with your decision.

It may be worth doing an iui cycle with them to see how you go while at the same time looking into going to the Lister as well.

Try asking for more info. here:-

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=264.0

I would also try asking similar questions on the IUI board as there are lots of women going through what you are going through and will have some more help for you:-

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=7.0

It took me a lot to finally have my twins! I started at 43, did 2 ivfs in London, 1 in New York all with own eggs. Got pg and miscarried all 3. Moved to Donor Eggs in Spain and miscarried 2 more times. Found out I had clotting problems and autoimmune issues, finaly cycle in Spain with donor embryos plus clexane, steroids, gestone, IVIg resulted in the birth of my boy/girl twins at age 46! A long, hard road.

Best,
Daisy
xxxx


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi Daisy,

  46 wow!  thats sooo great but as you say you went through so much to get there.  Perseverence.

  Thanks for the link  but it relates to northern ireland all nhs hospitals as far as i can make out with huge wait lists will keep looking though to see if any sims ladies.  

Will defo check out lister 

  I was on the iui board but had to have a break as so many bfp and with the women way younger it was giving me an unrealistic view of my chances, but will go back to find out about meds etc.  

thanks Jue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Jue Jue,

I think if you do a search on Fertility Friends for Sims you will find quite a few posts come up with information. I think the Ireland board does have NI relevant stuff, but you may just have to run a Sims search to find it. Why don't you post a question on there and see who answers it?!

It is really hard when you are just starting and everyone seems to be pregnant and younger! But keep on keeping on.

Just had a quick Google and found some links to discussion boards talking about Sims. Seems to be very positive feedback, so that's good...

http://www.irishhealth.com/discussion/message.html?dis=5&topic=2641

Here is a search result for Sims on FF:-

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=search2

Best,
Daisy
xx


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## Jue jue (Feb 26, 2011)

Daisy,  

  Will check out both those links.  

  Again, thanks for your replies and great straight forward advice,  it means so much.

Jue


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