# Pope tells infertile couple to shun 'arrogant' IVF treatment as sex between husb



## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

& wife is the "only acceptable" way to conceive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106392/Pope-Benedict-XVI-tells-infertile-couple-shun-arrogant-IVF-treatment-sex-husband-wife-acceptable-way-conceive.html

this sort of thing makes me fume- and thank my lucky stars I'm not religious!

/links


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## stumpy_UK (Aug 5, 2011)

i really don't want to cause offence to anyone in any religion, but it's things like this that mean I will never be religious.


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## ali80 (Aug 11, 2009)

Don't know why I just read the comments!!         One idiot called ivf "default breading"      
Ali x


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## sabah m (Jul 11, 2008)

I am a devout Christian (DH is a vicar   ) and had my whole church praying for me when started IVF and last sunday we announced it worked to a roaring standing ovation.....please don't tar all religions as the same and I am sure not all Catholics share the Pope's view on this either.


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## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

I’m sure also that not all Catholics agree with him but there are many, many devout Catholics in the world and I feel this is very cruel for them, because infertility is such a heart-breaking thing to suffer and to be told you have to just accept your lot when there are solutions out there must be like having your heart put through the wringer.


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## stumpy_UK (Aug 5, 2011)

Exactly. What the pope thinks about anything is an irrelevance to me as I am not catholic. I might be offended and angered by him and I frequently am, but it isn't an influence on my life. 

It's the people who are affected by IF that do listen to him that I feel for. 

Sabah, yes, in my experience most people of all faiths are pragmatically and sensibly grateful for advances in medicine and genuinely wish others well. and congratulations xxx


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## butterfeena (Feb 23, 2012)

How sad that the leader of the Catholic Church is so unsupportive to the people with fertility issues who actually follow him as their leader. I thought religion was about being caring, loving and supportive to our fellow humans. Not in this case it seems. Pope, must do better.


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## Jacks girl (Aug 7, 2011)

Speaking as someone who was raised a Catholic - I so far have flouted most of the things they told me not to do. I have no regrets. The Pope is a man of faith married to his church not to another human being. Unless someone has lived through it I do not think they have the right to comment on the emotions, decisions and morality of someone who is living through it. I live by the belief that I am much happier talking to god myself rather than through a mouthpiece and that is why to my Dad's dismay I do not attend church anymore but prefer to keep my own faith with God which sometimes is tried by this experience.

xxxx


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## butterfeena (Feb 23, 2012)

Well said Brummiemill!


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## MandyPandy (May 10, 2010)

LOL!  I knew that was going to be a Daily Mail article just by the thread title.

'Pope in Intolerance Shocker'


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## butterfeena (Feb 23, 2012)

Hahaha MandyPandy, though I imagine a fair portion of Mail readers may agree.


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## MandyPandy (May 10, 2010)

butterfeena said:


> Hahaha MandyPandy, though I imagine a fair portion of Mail readers may agree.


Oh undoubtedly... but  'em .


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## SoldiersWife (Sep 14, 2011)

Hmm Pope says conception other than by intercourse between husband and wife is wrong. Then explain to me the concept of the Virgin Mary??


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## butterfeena (Feb 23, 2012)

LMAO SoldiersWife!!


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## DaughterofLilith (Apr 4, 2005)

...and Eve was taking out of the side of Adam, Sarah was in her nineties when she gave birth to Isaac, Elizabeth was post menopausal when she gave birth to John the Baptist. The Christian Bible is full of procreation that is not done in the normal way.

...speaking of which, look at the way the couple's feet are facing in the photograph - why did they use that photo to illustrate baby making?


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## SoldiersWife (Sep 14, 2011)

I understand that religion and belief are a comfort to many millions of people, but I don't think it is the right of any person to tell others that they should not or may not have a child. That very principle seems to me unchristian.


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## Libran (Dec 15, 2009)

Ladies
This thread is becoming a little heated.
Please can we respect each others diverse points of view and remember that FF is a mutually supportive and caring forum in which we can all air our individual opinions but respect the rights of others to an alternative point of view.
Libran


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## SoldiersWife (Sep 14, 2011)

Libran - I do hope I haven't offended anyone. My opinions are my own and I fully respect the beliefs of others. 

I was merely pointing out via my posts that the personal opinion of the Pope seems to somewhat undermine the caring and supportive principals of the Church. God did not include a caveat when he said " Love thy neighbour".


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## Klingon Princess (May 10, 2007)

I'm catholic and I LOVED the comment about the Virgin Mary!  Really truly loved it, so thanks for making me laugh!

Yes, I'm a catholic and an infertile one.  If its a sin to want to bear a child and be willing to do whatever it takes, then I'll commit that sin and not even think twice.  I will answer for it to God and take the consequences if there are any.  

you know, the Pope also says that marriage is for the purpose of reproduction... well I'm trying!  and you know what, a miracle conception would be wonderful!  Meanwhile, if God does not want me to be a parent would He please take away my desire to be a mother and that dreadful empty ache where my heart used to be, thanks very much!

I do understand some of the issues that make the church against IVF... the whole thing about life starting at conception and the allowing embryos to perish,... Its something I agonised over for a long time before deciding to take the IF route... and yes we tried the adoption thing and got torn to pieces (to the point of feeling suicidal) by a Catholic adoption agency. (Yes, I' still bitter abaout that).

In the end, the church left me no choice.  I can only hope that one day the church will wake up and realise its in the 21st century now and that ideas have to move forwards.

I also feel that a religion founded on "Love thy neighbour" should be a little less quick to condemn!

On one hand we are taught that we should follow our conscience - and by the way, the Pope is only 'infallible' when speaking under the cloak of dogma - on the other they say obey without question... well you know what, soldiers have been shot for "only obeying orders"

I mean no offense to any other catholics here who may have a little more faith left than I do. Whatever choices you make, I hope you find your peace.


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## SoldiersWife (Sep 14, 2011)

Klingon Princess - Thank you for your post. I am very glad that you were not offended. I am not a religious person myself but I do believe that the principles of the church are a great foundation by which to live your life. I'm just saddened that the Pope is asking millions of women to choose between their Faith and the chance to have a family.


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## EmmaLily (Sep 8, 2009)

I am also catholic.  I find it very hard to believe that God would not want me and other people in my position to be happy and have the family that we have always dreamed of whether that be by IVF or adoption or by other means.  I sometimes get annoyed with the Church for having such a strong opinion on certain issues without looking at it from a different, more 'modern angle'.  I feel the whole IF and IVF procedures has made myself and DH a much stronger and loving couple and when we are blessed with our LO in our arms I will thank God everyday for our miracle.  I think it’s sad that people are still contradicted to and I strongly believe that we should all be allowed to live the way we choose because I have not murdered anyone or hurt anyone all I have done is had a little helping hand and now I am expecting our first little miracle and if I have sinned then that is fine I can live with that because I know I am still a good person.  I have been tempted for a while now to speak to my local Priest about his views on IVF etc and then perhaps make my mind up whether I could have my little one Christened there but I strongly would like his honest opinion first as I would hate for LO to be Christened in the Church and then be told she was created in sin.  I tell u religion is a very delicate issue but I believe and have complete faith in my decision to have IVF and I am grateful everyday that God made the man who in turn created this wonderful procedure which has helped so many lucky couples and may it continue.  Sorry girls just read that back I hope I haven’t sent too many of u asleep.  Little rant over.  

xxx


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## Klingon Princess (May 10, 2007)

emmalily, I agree with what you say. the Christening is something that has worried me alot as well - as it turned out, it was academic as I miscarried - but I was worrying about the concept of bringing a child into a faith that says his/her conception is a sin.  any sin is mine and not the childs and I dont want my child to be penalised for that.  (as I said, a bit academic now but still something that upset me alot at the time and if I am ever lucky enuogh to have successful treatment, I will be something I will worry about)

Incidentally, I remember speaking to an elderly nun at the time I was having IVF - I expected her to be horrified but she just gave me a gentle smile and said "Well, the pope is just a man, what would he know?"


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## unicorn4176 (Feb 19, 2012)

At the end of the day, men are not Gods and I do not think God is petty minded to shun his flock that easily. Anyway I am a Hindu, so I cannot comment on other religions. We do not consult our priests on such personal matters, but we consult astrolgers   and draw our horoscopes,   . The last one I consulted told me to pray real hard and he also said I need to go to a doctor for if I cannot help myself how can God come forward. Now that is smart advice...


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## 2ndtimeround (Feb 8, 2012)

Sadly my dad, who incidently was raised a catholic but is now a born again, has told me that under no circumstances must I and my DH undergo IVF, it is "against everything he believes in" and i am affectively "killing any embryo that is not implanted in me or that does not grow". 

Sad that the Pope, and my Dad, see the world in this narrow minded way. I believe in God but i am too ashamed to ever admit to being a Christian when I have seen the way Christians show "love"!!


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## Klingon Princess (May 10, 2007)

2nd timearound, please do not judge all Christians, we are not all narrow minded and prejudiced.  You are NOT killing embryos, you are giving them every possible chance to grow.  The ones that dont grow would not have survived inside you anyway.  In my case I asked for all my left over  embryos to be frozen (not that I had many), even the ones they didnt think were good enough, that way they were at least given a chance. Some did not survive the thaw, but like the ones that didnt grow, these would have died even if implanted as only the very strongest embryos survive.  that way I can in good conscience say that I did not kill any of my embryos.


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## Jacks girl (Aug 7, 2011)

Klingon princess if you actually re read 2nd time around comment.again you will note the quote marks. She was quoting her Dad not saying she feels personally she is doing that this is how threads get heated x


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## Klingon Princess (May 10, 2007)

I did read it thank you.  I was responding to the fact she says she feels ashamed to be christian if this is the way christians show love.... and asked that she not judge all Christians as being like her father in terms of their views on this subject.  I then went on to say that in my view she is NOT killing her embies.  so please read MY post before having a go at me.  thank you.  As you say this is how threads get heated.


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