# IVF/FET/IUI/Clomid at 40+ OWN EGGS ONLY - questionnaire



## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Dear all
Starting this thread to help all the 40+ that currently go through ART. It would be great if either succesful or unsuccesful filled the questionnaire. Please only fill for own eggs IVF/FET/IUI/CLOMID and natural conception at over 40.


1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?

Thanks all in advance for your responses. It will help many 40+ see what the odds are at 40+ and whether they should move on to DE/adoption/giving up earlier.


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## Guest (May 7, 2019)

40-41; no other Fertility issues but age 
4 normal; 6 banking
Did all protocols -> long/short/flare; dose range 150- 450; gonal f/ menopur/clomid
Cq10;Fertility Vitamins;
High dose cycles 2; low dose 5-7
Low sperm count
Each cycle 1-2 blasts 
5 transfers-> 2 each time always a blast/ early blast or morula
No lining issues 
Never any left for freezing 
No pregnancy
Still trying at 44 turned in April. Doing 3 modified natural
Cycles and then that is it
Lister and create London


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

And here are my answers:

1. How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?

36 after trying naturally for 2 years- no fertility issues for me[/b]

2. How many cycles did you have?

4 cycles

3. What meds and protocol did you use?

Have tried ling and short protocol. Responded the same to both. Menopur350

4. Did you also take extra supplements?

Pregnacare, ubiquinol, babay aspirin, VitE

5. How many eggs were collected?

12-17 eggs each cycle

7. Did you also have male factor?

Yes. Low sperm count and morphology. Also high DNA Fragmentation. Count increased with Clomid and conceived twice naturally within 3 months. One was TFMR for T21 and one early missed miscarriage

8. How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?

Varied. In the most successful cycle 3 good quality blastos. Fell pregnant with one and sadly micarried

9. How many did you transfer?

1 each time

10. lining thickness?

7-9mm

11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?

2 BFPs naturally and 1 on the second fresh cycle. BFN with FET

12. Any embryos left for freezing?

2 3BB blastos

13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+?

Not at 40+. One at 36 and one at 38.

14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?

After 4 cycles. Trying naturally with clomid for husband but we don't conceive anymore. The two previous times conception happened within 3 momths. I guess not so good eggs anymore? We have one frozen 3BB left, which I am transferring soon but I don't have high hopes

15. Which clinic did you use?

Lister


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## Guest (May 8, 2019)

Hi, I thought you might like to read this study on 8 women who did DE, very interesting.
http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/18677/


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks CathA. Very interesting indeed. I will read through.

Are you considering DE? Very complicated decision isn’t it? I know it’s just a cell but this cells happens to grow to a human and decisions have consequences. I wouldn’t be able to go with an unknown donor or not tell my child. I habe no doubt I would love the child a lot but there are so many unknowns. How do you protect the child from hereditary diseases. How do you explain and when do you tell? What if they look for the donor? What about potential siblings? Really complicated decision. But again, things change. A few years ago I was wondering why people don’t adopt instead of using donors. When I realised how difficult, painful and expensive adoption is I changed my mind. I am still in pain because we haven’t managed to reproduce and have already spent so much money on cycles, medicines, surgeries, tests, doctor fees etc. 
anyway. What can you do? Life is unfair


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## Guest (May 9, 2019)

I have to say it is very complicated and yes we have considered it but with both me and my husband 50/50 on it I just don’t think it is a good idea.I understand how people because obsessed for the baby but the baby grows up and then it becomes so hard. So many questions, what If the child is nothing like your partner, looks and acts like the donor, doesn’t handle it very well when you tell them etc etc. Having read the study most women had lots of questions all the time and anxieties and some said they wished they had thought about it more especially beyond the baby phase. One women had a child with behavioural issues and this is my worst nightmare, it is all fine if the child looks like you and is healthy etc but that might not happen and then how would I feel, the risks are huge I think. Another women said she was only comfortable telling her neighbour who had a child with severe autism as having a donor child was seen a better then OE disabled child, it is almost like a hierarchy of what is best and then do you want to play the game to see where you land!( no offensive to anyone).
Also the biggest problem for me is age, I think it is hard for a child being DE but then on top of that old parents. You need a lot of energy to deal with all of it. I turned 44 in April and if I did DE would be 45-46 having a child my husband 47-48.  I am not sure I have that energy for all of it.I know for sure if I was 30 and no eggs then yes I would do DE no question,also you have more options then like friends or family who might be young and generous enough to donate.
Right now I do my last 3 banking rounds of modified ivf, and that is it. This is really for my husband as he needs to know that my eggs are no good, but because I always get 1-2 to blast he wants to try this and the clinic said my chances are about 20% based on a single round of it I did in January, so 80% failure, odds rubbish.
I don’t know how we will feel when this fails, I think we will discuss DE again and put down pros and cons. I am more concerned for my partner who is an only child. I have a brother and sister and am very close to my sisters 2 kids, they practically see me as a second mother so I have had all the bottle feeding, changing nappies, school runs, fun days out and the unconditional love you get from kids while he hasn’t experienced this and I think he feels a bit alone in the world if anything happened to me. 
There are no easy solutions here. I will keep you updated on my ivf and my decision, be great if you could keep me updated aswell as nice to talk to someone else who is in the same boat.


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## MargotW (Jan 26, 2016)

Thanks Efi for starting this. I think it will be really useful, so here are my answers:

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
37, we started with male factor, my husband has an undescended testicle and poor everything. 
2.  How many cycles did you have?
9, 5 with my husband’s sperm, 4 with donor sperm.
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
1 round was short protocol, we have had 6 with long protocol and 2 with microdose long protocol. I have used Menopur once and didn’t react to it, 1 round I had a mixture of Fostimon and Gonal F, the rest have been Gonal F
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
Varies but always folic acid and co q 10. 
5.  How many eggs were collected?
Anywhere between 2 and 12. 
7.  Did you also have male factor?
Yes severe.
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
Anywhere between 0 and 1, we have only ever had 4 blasts and 3 of those were with donor sperm.
9.  How many did you transfer?
1
10. lining thickness? 
Variable between 7 and 9 mm 
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
2 rounds with no transfers, 5 BFNs and 2 BFPs on rounds 4 and 8, both ended in miscarriage. Always fresh.
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
No 
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
No
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up? We are thinking about moving to donor egg but agreed no more cycles with my eggs. I am 41 now.
15. Which clinic did you use?
Rounds 1-3 at Lister, 4-5 at Guys and 6-9 at Lister.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

CathA - everything you said hits home. Very difficult decision. Raising a child is hard enough. Throw into the mix DE/DS and it‘s even harder. I guess it’s a very personal decision which some take easily some not so. But as you said age is a factor. I have been through 7 years of ART, surgeries, expensive tests, went to the best doctors. We have spent overall ( low and behold) £120k...been through incredible loss and pain. Is it worth prolonging this with 1-3 cycles of DE? If it is successful  is it worth the pain or is it more like „been there done it now I can put a tick“. I guess it’s down to everyone‘s personal circumstances. A child brings a lot of happiness but also a lot of stress and anxiety. There is a point that the costs outweigh the benefits of trying.  I will definitely keep you posted . Would also like to keep in touch

MargotW - many thanks for your responses. We seem to have very similar profiles. 

CathA / MargotW we all seem to be Lister clients.


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## MargotW (Jan 26, 2016)

Efi, we do have similar profiles and interesting that we have all been to the Lister. 
My husband and need to have a proper chat about DE, we almost went for it last time but got cold feet, I am worried that I think of it as the miracle answer but it might not be. We too have spent so much money and now I think what we could have done with it but I still have such a yearning to be a mum. I certainly feel that I have “been there, done it and can put a tick” for trying with my eggs and my husband’s sperm.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

MargotW
I hear you about yearning to be a mum. I feel the same and it’s such a strong feeling. I always wanted children and I love all children so deeply. I was born to be a mum and it feels like a punishment after all this sacrifice and ordeal not having achieved a live birth. 
In terms of DE to be honest I am not precious about passing my genes, I have no interest in the child looking like me. The only thing is that we have no serious hereditary diseases in my family, no mental disease, and that would be nice to pass to a child. The same on my husband’s side. 
Another thing is that with my husband we are still deeply in love and I guess both of us saw this in a very romantic way that it would be great If a child would be born out of this great love. But we are so fond of each other that I am adamant that i want to see him in our child and he is adamant that he wants to see me in his child. So there you go...go figure. 
Another thing is that DE doesn’t guarantee success. We may need 1-3 cycles. And quite frankly we are not lucky at all in terms of IVF/reproducing. Do we deserve more pain? I do have sometimes a picture of twins -a boy and a girl- that both look like my husband though....again complicated...
Adoption! Well, I am not sure why people see this as the answer to infertility. Those that have never been through our ordeal always suggest „why don’t you adopt?“. Adopting is also as hard as IVF. Applications to adopting agencies, rejections, not many babies to adopt, it also costs loads and one million other difficulties. And then again it comes down to the question: I have been through 7 years of ART and pain. I am 41. do I have the time, psycological strength AND money ( around 60k?) to adopt? No, unless someone came and gave me a baby and left it outside my door. As a matter of fact I would much prefer DE.

The question is where do we stop and carry on with life? There is a point where we have to draw a line. And then it’s also what my husband said. Sometimes, when you habe done multiple cycles and spent loads of money, you get line „maybe the next cycle I succeed“. And you carry on and on and on.

So there is a point, I feel, that no matter how much I yearn for a child I have to draw a line and accept that it wasn‘t meant to be. That’s life and yes for someone like me that adores children  so mich it’s harsh. But I also know that hubby and I are good people and don’t deserve more pain. That’s life...

Sorry for the long message. I just felt that I am on the same page with both you and CathA and felt comfortable to pure my heart out. Hugs to both of you


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

And bump..
Anyone else andwering these questions?


1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?


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## pauli (Sep 19, 2016)

Hi Efi, 
1. I was 39 when we started investigations, I was 40 when I did my first IVF/ICSI cycle. I have a mild endometriosis which was discovered during the investigations (I had a laparoscopy).

2. In total we did 6 cycles with OE 

3. I had long, short, flare protocols; used mainly Gonal F and Menopur (and antibiotics) during stimms. Then progesterone, steroids, clexane, aspirin before/after the transfer. 

4. I took loads of different supplements (but not DHEA) 

5. In 6 cycles I had between 8 – 14 eggs collected each time. 

7. During the investigations we discovered, we had a male factor – poor morphology, high DNA fragmentation, and MAR test showed sperm antibodies. Morphology has got better throughout the treatment (DH took supplements and significantly reduced cycling), we did not repeat the MAR test as it was not relevant for ICSI.        

8. & 9. & 12. First 2 cycles: we had 2 embryos transferred on day 3 and nothing to freeze. Cycles 3 – 6 resulted in 2 or 3 blastocysts. When PGS tested (cycles 3 & 4), all 5 blasts were aneuploid, so no transfer. On cycles 5 & 6 we did not test and just transferred all blasts (2 and 3 blastocysts each time) with nothing to freeze  

10. Lining was never a problem, always tri-laminar and above 10mm 

11. I got BFP on cycles 5&6, but miscarried early both times (at about 7 weeks and 10 weeks)

13. No, never had a natural conception (before 40 it was most likely due to the problem with the sperm).

14. We decided that after 2 miscarriages to moved to DE in 2019. 

15. Used different clinics in the UK and abroad      

Good luck to everyone and lots of baby dust. XX


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## Guest (May 13, 2019)

Can I ask how do you decide that you could do donor egg? How did you manage to move on? Me and my OH have so many doubts and fears around that whole process.


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## pauli (Sep 19, 2016)

Hi Cath
Our journey is a bit different. For our cycles 3 & 4 we travelled to a clinic in the US. My sister was based not far from the clinic at the time and she has a success there at her first IVF attempt (with a donor sperm as she was single). She was 41, her fertility health was not great (history of cyst aspirations laparoscopies, severe endo) and her AMH was undetectable! But she had that one golden egg she needed. 

We had 2 cycles there in 2017, 5 blastocysts in total but all aneuploid when PGS tested, so no transfer. My sister did another cycle with my DH sperm, but that blast was also aneuploid. The clinic is small but with the latest technology, and a very experienced team. If I had unlimited amount of money, I would have probably taken sabbatical off work, and kept doing IVF cycles there until I found that golden egg. But that was not an option.

1-2 months after our 2nd cycle the clinic got in touch and offered us DE free of charge! It was Christmas 2017 and each year they select a couple to give a Xmas gift like that. They do the matching before they offer DE to the intended parents. It was an egg-share. Donor eggs were split 3 ways we were the 3rd couple to receive 5 frozen eggs from the same donor. We got loads of information not only about the donor herself but also info on her parents and both sets of grandparents (physical characteristics, health, education, where they came from etc.) plus pictures of donor.            

I just turned 42 and was not ready to give up on my OE yet. But at the same time I was very grateful for the gift. We liked everything about the donor, and obviously the fact that we did not have to pay for DE or the treatment itself was a special bonus. I just had to pay for drugs I needed for FET. 

We accepted the gift but delayed the treatment by a year. In that year I did 2 more OE cycles at another clinic abroad which were fairly inexpensive in comparison. I followed a very similar protocol, got same results – 5 blasts from 2 cycles. We did not do PGS testing, just transferred all: 2 blasts on one cycle and 3 blasts on another cycle and hoped for a miracle. Well, both cycles ended in miscarriages. Most likely it was dues to the chromosomal issue. We knew from the previous PGS cycles that 5 blasts tested were all abnormal.  

So it was our plan: try OE cycles in 2018 and if no success, to move to DE treatment in 2019. I guess we were in a privileged position knowing we had 5 donor eggs waiting for us. That one year while we tried 2 more OE cycles gave us both enough time to accept the idea of DE and bring a sort of closure for my OE. I keep thinking of the health issues we have experienced in my family and that it might be the best thing for our child to have the genes of a donor.  

In Jan 2019 we traveled to the US clinic, they defrosted 5 eggs, all 5 fertilized and we got 4 blasts on day 5. No PGS testing as donor was young, so straight to a transfer - 1 blast transferred and 3 blasts in a freezer. It was an amazing result as all 4 blasts were 4AA. I am currently pregnant, 18+ weeks with a boy, so far so good, still a long way to go, but hoping all will end up well. I cannot wait to see meet our boy now and what he will be like ;-)  

I know it is a big risk to use DE and it is not for everyone. I do not have a single answer how you accept the idea of DE. For me it was a chance of having a family, letting go of the control, and hoping for the best result ;-). It seemed that it was meant to be when the clinic reached out to us with an offer of DE. I do not know if we would have actively pursued DE journey ourselves. We were not considering it at the time. I think you must be happy with whatever decision you make, to feel in your heart that you are making the right decision. Sorry if this does not make much sense.    

Good luck to everyone on their journey xx


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## Guest (May 15, 2019)

Thanks for that Pauli, I agree with the letting go and hoping for the best, unfortunately am a bit of a worrier. Right now am feeling a bit down, was suppose to start my 3 banking natural modified cycles tomorrow but have contacted a very bad stomach bug so might have to cancel again. It is another month gone and at 44 every month matters. Going to see how I feel tomorrow but don’t hold out much hope to be honest giving how I feel right and maybe better to wait till June as being sick and trying to do a cycle is very hard.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

CathA - one month is not going to make a difference. Better to take care of yourself. Are you cycling at the Lister or Care? I am doing an FET at the Lister mid June to beginning of July. Transfering a last 3BB blasto I have. Tbh I am sure it’s going to be another epic failure.

Pauli- beautiful story. It shows how unpredictable can life be and how it drives you to paths you had never thought of before

So, I wonder if there is a 40+ that have had success with OE IVF. I have only heard about natural conception at 40+ with OE. This makes me wonder whether it’s down to old eggs or the high dosages that we take during IVF. Well, in my case it’s also male factor


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Bump to receive a few more answers

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?


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## Qpmz (Apr 16, 2018)

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age? 41, no fertility issues apart from age

2.  How many cycles did you have? 7 egg retrieval’s with IVF or ICSI. 6 embryo transfers

3.  What meds and protocol did you use? short protocols each time (no down Reg) Meds varied, tried full stim and mild.

4.  Did you also take extra supplements? Yes, folate, ubiquinol, fish oil, probiotics, wheatgrass, vit D spray, 

5.  How many eggs were collected? 3 was my minimum, 10 maximum from my most recent cycles. 

7.  Did you also have male factor? No - samples are always within normal parameters (motility, volume, morphology) however just decided to do Sperm DNA fragmentation test which we are waiting on the results.

8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? Min 1, max 8, Usually had at least two reaching day 5 but sometimes transferred on day 2 or 3 so couldn’t tell. 

9.  How many did you transfer? 3 when doing full stim, 1 when doing mild. I think more is better if you have then when 40+

10. lining thickness? Always good with triple layer and good blood flow. Can’t remember thickness but doctors were always happy with it. 

11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET? All BFN : (

12. Any embryos left for freezing? No

13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? Got one by accident at 39 with a previous partner. Early miscarriage. 

14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up? Might do one more if we can muster up the emotional strength and finances. Might try a FET and do an ERA. Will also await sperm DNA fragmentation and see if that was an issue all along. If so vitamins are supposed to improve it significantly. 

15. Which clinic did you use? Create and ARGC. 

Have also done immunes and I tried PGS once. I seem to respond well and make good looking embryos but they just don’t stick : (


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## Butterfly158 (Aug 8, 2017)

Hello All, I just wanted to add the answers to the questionnaire and share my story as some of you (Margot and Efi) were cycling at the same time as my last cycle in Oct/Nov 17... after 2 years and 3 BFN IVF cycles, the last cycle we only got 2 eggs and I was fully convinced at that point it was all over and I had literally run out of eggs. I managed to convince James at the Lister to do a Laparoscopy in Dec 17 (Guy's had refused) due to some very mild mid cycle pain I had been having. Miraculously one month later, while waiting for my period to start so we could begin our next cycle I got a BFP. My little girl is 7 months now and at times I still cannot believe she is here. I am 41 and had truly started to give up hope.

We were at the point of seriously starting to consider DE and to be honest, I feel sure I would have gone ahead with this option (even though my husband didn't want to). In my mind the potential negatives of using DE were far outweighed by the benefits of having another baby (we have a 4 year old) and sibling for our daughter. Of course it's such a personal decision and many of my friends in similar circumstances would not consider such a route but I don't think there is any way you would ever regret having a child, no matter how they were conceived but I always felt that if I didn't try and keep pushing then I would always wonder and might regret not trying even if it meant using a DE. My husband on the other hand wanted to 'move on' within a few months of starting to try as he couldn't take the stress of it all. 

Ive filled in the questions below as I always found it gave me hope and kept me going to hear success stories. I wish all of you they best of luck in whatever path you take and wherever this journey leads you xxx

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
39 - Low AMH of 3.6pmol. Only collected 2 eggs in last IVF cycle.
2.  How many cycles did you have?
Three
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
SP on first 2 cycles, LP on last one. Highest dose of Menopur on all three
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
800mg Ubiquinol every day for 3 months... 
5.  How many eggs were collected?
9, 10 and 2 
7.  Did you also have male factor?
No
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? 
2 x 3 day on each cycle (including the last one where we only got 2 eggs but both fertilised and were transferred on day 3) 
9.  How many did you transfer?
2 each time
10. lining thickness?
I cant remember but was good on each cycle
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
Cycle 1 - BFN, Cycle 2 - CP, Cycle 3 - BFN
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
No
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
Yes - with drastically low AMH, increasingly sparse and irregular periods (convinced I am and was perimenopausal). She is 7 months old now!
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
My plan was to do another 3 cycles - so a total of 6 with OE and then move to DE
15. Which clinic did you use?
Guy's x 2 cycles and The Lister x 1 - I found the Lister much better and much more open to 'trying' things. IF we had stayed at Guys (and my husband and I argued hugely over whether to move clinics - I won in the end) we would not have our baby as Dr. Khalaf stated that "there would be no benefit" to me having a laparoscopy. The Lister agreed to try it and I am 100% sure this is the thing that finally allowed me to get my BFP.


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## pauli (Sep 19, 2016)

Cath, sorry to hear you are not well. But I agree with Efi, one month is not going to make a difference if you decide to wait until June for the next cycle. Modified natural cycle was something I never tried but remember reading about it and thinking if it could be the right approach for 40+ eggs. Wishing you that you will catch that one golden egg you need xx 

Efi, wishing you that you get BFP with your transfer in June! I know it is so difficult to keep faith after a number of failures. It is an impossible balance to maintain: on one hand trying to keep faith that the treatment will work but on the other hand we cannot afford to get our hopes too high in case it does not work and we come crashing down. 

Qpmz, sorry to hear about your struggles. You are right, supplements (vitamins C and E) can help with the elevated DNA fragmentation should that be the result of the test. You mentioned you did PGS, did you get euploid embryos? If yes, so you know that you transferred chromosomally competent embryos and they did not stick, ERA is a good idea. I remember reading here on FF about the ladies who finally managed to have health babies after they following their ERA results. Good luck! 

Butterfly, what a beautiful story about your little girl. I tend to agree with you that laparoscopy can help to get you pregnant. Somebody I know needed laparoscopy following a car accident. She was about 40, never pregnant. With her partner they accepted they could not get pregnant naturally and did not proceed to IVF. Following laparoscopy she fell pregnant naturally ;-). You were right to follow your instinct and change the clinic!


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## Guest (May 15, 2019)

Thanks for that ladies. I am at create London. They said to ring In the morning and let them know. I know one month won’t make a big difference and I would rather feel good when doing this then dragging myself to appointments with a dodgy stomach, only you ladies know how uncomfortable all the tests and needles would be with that. 
Efi, I hope you transfer goes well there is still hope, however small it is for all of us.


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## Qpmz (Apr 16, 2018)

Thanks Pauli, yes I did have a PGS normal embryo that didn’t stick. I sent 4 off for testing and got 1 normal. It was so distressing and confusing when it was a BFN. Thanks for your words of encouragement re: an ERA, it’s something I’ll definitely do if we decide to do another cycle. My last three cycles have all been fresh with 3 good embryos put back each time. It’s hard to believe they were all dud so an ERA might provide answers. Plus there’s a theory that a frozen transfer (which I’d need to do following an ERA) might in some way be more beneficial than a fresh. Good luck to you all ☀🦋


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Butterfly,

What was the laparoscopy for and what were the findings?

So, the only BFP with OE we got so far at 40+ is a natural one. I wonder whether mild IVF is the answer for 40+. I hear very often about ladies conceiving naturally at 40+ with OE but not through IVF. Is it old eggs or high drug dosages the problem? Also note that Butterfly was the only one to conceive naturally but also the only one that doesn’t have male factor. 
CathA I am really curious to see how your  modified natural cycle will go

Let’s see if we can get some more answers:

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?


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## Guest (May 16, 2019)

Cancelled cycle this morning as still not well, I think if it was a bad cold fine but this just couldn’t, so 3 week wait now and then June start. Disappointed but think the better decision then going ahead.Now it will be back to back each month, hopefully will find that egg.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

All the best CathA. Keep us posted on how modified natural IVF goes. It’s super interesting.


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi Efi - info requested- hope this is useful for you.

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? 39 Any fertility issues besides age? Male factor issues.
2.  How many cycles did you have? 9 transfers (5 egg collections).
3.  What meds and protocol did you use? Various - initially long protocol with down-regging, clomid gentle IVF..
4.  Did you also take extra supplements? Yes a lot! Still on high potency B vits & C, omegas, iron, probiotics, multi mineral..
5.  How many eggs were collected? Between 8-3 depending on type of protocol (less on gentle IVF).
7.  Did you also have male factor? Yes.
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? Usually 2 or 3 blastocysts, good quality (just old eggs!?)
9.  How many did you transfer? Usually 1 but 2 twice (including most recent).
10. lining thickness? 10-13mm.
11. BFP/BFN? 7 If BFP after how many cycles? From 1st cycle. fresh or FET?  1st was fresh, all others FET
12. Any embryos left for freezing? Sometimes (1-3).
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 39.
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up? Moved into DE age 43, after 5 transfers & 5 egg collections.
15. Which clinic did you use? Care (UK), NGC, St Petersburg (not recommended) & Serum, Athens (recommended).

Strawberry x


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## Flyby (Feb 25, 2012)

1) Age 42 when started IVF, 44 when successful

2) 4 IVF, 4 embryo banking

3) First 4 cycles various mixtures of Menopur, Fostimon, Altermon; 4 embryo banking cycles using plain, old, simple Clomid.

4) Loads of supplements for months, split between morning, lunchtime, evening.... Pregnacare Conception, Probiotics, Ubiquinol 800mg per day, Vitamin D3, PQQ, baby aspirin, Royal Jelly, Folic Acid, Vitamin B complex, PABA, Lycopene, Iron, Fish oil, Pycnogenol, Selenium & Zinc, L-arginine, Myo-Inositol, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Carnitine, Melatonin.

5) 2-6 eggs each time

7) No male factor

 On the fresh IVFs I got between 2-4 embryos each time, never any blastocysts, had either two or three day transfers, tried to leave them longer on one cycle and they all arrested by day 5. On the embryo banking cycles with Clomid we got 2-4 blastocysts every time.

9) Transferred all embryos that made it every time, 2-4.

10) Lining either 9 or 10 ish.

11) BFP on the first frozen embryo transfer after four failed fresh cycles; thawed and transferred 4 blastocysts.

12) Have 6 frozen embryos left as it worked with first transfer.

13) No natural conception attempted.

14) I went to Serum clinic in Athens.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

That’s really impressive Flyby and what’s more interesting is that what strong drugs didn‘t achieve was achieved with good old clomid. 

May I ask how this works? I assume it’s a kind of mild IVF, where you take clomid, produce 2-3 follicles and each month the doctor collects these eggs and creates embryos with sperm and transfer at an FET? How much does this cost? I guess same as traditional IVF as it involves egg collection?

Again here we have a pattern where a 40+ woman did conceive but there was no male factor.


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## Guest (May 17, 2019)

Flybe, can I ask were your egg collections done when 42/43/44? I ask as I have done 10 rounds, no success, 1-2 embryos each time that do go to blast but not up to the job, and now at 44.1 and starting my 3 banking modified natural next month was curious.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

CathA what protocol are you following?


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## Flyby (Feb 25, 2012)

I took 150mg of Clomid from cycle day 2 until either trigger or egg collection (can’t quite remember which) but I know that Clomid keeps your LH low and automatically stops you from ovulating so didn’t need any other drugs apart from trigger shot.

The eggs are then collected, fertilised and frozen. I did this for four months in a row with the last collection being a few weeks before my 44th birthday, this cycle was the best of them all, I got six eggs, all fertilised and produced four blastocysts, these are the ones that were transferred a couple of months later.

It costs much less than traditional IVF because the drugs are only a few pounds a packet rather than thousands! Obviously there is a cycle price, I think it was €4000 for two at the time, can’t remember how much the freezing cost, but the total was certainly less than a cycle with injections.

I used donor sperm so am sure that was a help, but I did for all cycles, so I think the biggest difference was probably the drug protocol.


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## WarriorBaby (Nov 26, 2015)

Hi ladies, think this is a really interesting exercise...I got pregnant naturally just months before turning 40 which sadly ended in MC. I was told I'd probably need DE after my 1st & 2nd round of IVF, 3rd one was successful + one natural miracle. Hope this gives hope to anyone with low AMH. Here it goes X : 

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? 35 Any fertility issues besides age? Low AMH - 1.6 , was determined during fertility testing, age 33. + low progesterone and borderline FSH/LH
2.  How many cycles did you have? 3 
3.  What meds and protocol did you use? Short antag. protocol : Gonal F 300 on first cycle, then Gonal F 450 on round 2 & 3. Plus lubion injections in addition to cyclogest
4.  Did you also take extra supplements? No, just conception vitamins 
5.  How many eggs were collected? Round 1 : 3, Round 2 : 6, Round 3 : 6  
7.  Did you also have male factor? No 
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? Day 5 all 3 rounds...Round 1 : 2 morulas (poor), Round 2 : 2 blasts (poor), Round 3 : 3 blasts (3 good quality - surprisingly!)
9.  How many did you transfer? 2 each time 
10. lining thickness? The only thing that was always pretty good, triple layer, 12-14 
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET? BFN, BFN, BFP - all fresh 
12. Any embryos left for freezing? 1 - from 3rd & only successful round 
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? Yes (3 months away before turning 40) also one natural pregnancy at 38.
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use? Queen Charlotte/Hammersmith Hospital then Boston Place


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## Guest (May 18, 2019)

Thanks for that Flybe gives me hope was feeling down having to skip this month again as was sick. So will be 44.2 before I start the banking of 3 cycles June, July, August. Fingers crossed I will find the egg. Am taking quite a few supplements so hopefully they will help a little.My last Amh measurement was a year ago now and it was 1.3, they asked if I wanted to retake and I was like what is the point it is what it is and am going ahead anyway!


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Flyby - that’s really impressive. So may blasts with Clomid and so few with the IVF drugs. Was the sperm donor the same for all your cycles? May I ask if you are aware of any other ladies that may have had success using this protocol?

Warriorbaby - thank you for your responses. So inspiring. All the best with No3 and please keep us posted on how it goes.

CathA- fingers crossed for you. Next month may be the one. Let us know how it goes and whether it makes any difference from previous protocols.


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## magicpillow (Feb 8, 2015)

Hey ladies.  It's been so interesting to read this thread to see how other over 40 ladies have got on with treatment and the outcomes.  We are waiting to do double donation IVF but I'm finding myself still struggling with the donor egg aspect and thinking I should maybe try again with my own eggs, even though I'm nearly 43!  My cycles always went really well which makes it so gutting.  It seems a bit futile when I think about it though.....here is my story...

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?  I was 36 when I started TTC and 39 when I began IVF.  Our issue was male factor - azoospermia - and I had no issues with my own fertility. 
2.  How many cycles did you have?  We did 4 fresh cycles - 2 with hubby's sperm (surgically retrieved) and then moved to donor sperm.  We did 2 IUIs first and then 2 fresh IVF cycles with it. 
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?  Rounds 1 and 2 were short protocol with gonal F (350) and menopur, round 3 long protocol with buserelin, gonal F (150) and menopur.  Round 4 was a flare protocol - buserelin, gonal F, menopur.
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?  I took folic acid, vit D, zinc, ubiquinol, vit B6 (as I'm deficient)
5.  How many eggs were collected? Cycle 1 - 12; Cycle 2 - 8; Cycle 3 - 10; Cycle 4 - 14
7.  Did you also have male factor?  Yes our diagnosis was azoospermia.
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? Cycle 1 - 1 day 5 blasto; Cycle 2 - 2 day 3 embryos; cycle 3 - 2 day 5 blastos; cycle 4 - 2 day 5 blastos
9.  How many did you transfer? 1 or 2 depending on how many we got.  We never had any left to freeze. 
10. lining thickness?  Can't remember measurements but always very good apparently!
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?  All cycles were fresh.  Cycle 1 - BFP (mmc); cycle 2 BFN; cycle 3 BFN; cycle 4 - BFP (mmc)
12. Any embryos left for freezing? no
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? no
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?  after 4 fresh cycles I felt exhausted and unwell and we decided our best option was donor conception.  I still struggle with it though. 
15. Which clinic did you use?  First two cycles were the The Bridge Centre and London Women's Clinic; cycles 3 and 4 were the Agora.  Now on the waiting list at the Lister for egg donation.


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## Flyby (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm glad it's given hope and I agree there's no point in getting AMH measured.

Yes, I am aware that there are quite a few people this protocol has worked for, also Penny has had many successes with people in their mid-forties with own eggs. You could arrange a consultation to ask some questions if it would help.

No, donors weren't the same all the way through, there were three along the way as I either didn't order enough or the donor became unavailable, all were proven.

There were a couple of Clomid threads that I remember:

https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=327173.0

https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=339262.0


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## noanoa (May 28, 2015)

Hi

Interesting thread ... here's my story

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?  I was 33 when I started TTC and 36 when I began IVF.  Possible pcos but not definite. High amh and regular ovulation. 
2.  How many cycles did you have?  2 ivf and 1 icsi 
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?  first 2 were short antagonist with menopur. 3rd was short with gonal F
4.  Did you also take extra supplements? Pregnacare, ubiquinol, myo-inositol, blueberries, organic, plastic free.... 
5.  How many eggs were collected? Cycle 1 - 5; Cycle 2 - 15; Cycle 3 - 10; 
7.  Did you also have male factor?  in 2014 sperm was high count with slightly higher than average morphology but by the end 2018 sperm was azoospermia (this was after being super healthy and ubiquinol and countless other supplements)
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? 2 x blastos on all 3 cycles. 
9.  How many did you transfer? 2 blastos on all cycles.  We never had any left to freeze. 
10. lining thickness?  Can't remember measurements but always good.
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?  All cycles were fresh.  1st cycle was chemical. others bfn. 
12. Any embryos left for freezing? no
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? no
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?  after 3 fresh cycles and 7 years of ttc. So around 80 cycles of trying naturally. Exhausting  
15. Which clinic did you use?  First two cycles were at St Marys, Manchester. 3rd was Reprofit in Czech. 


I am now 40 and am currently 26 weeks pregnant with a double donor embryo from Reprofit. I wish I had done it years ago as I finally feel like me again. However, I realise that the donor route is not for everyone and mine my husbands situation is unique to us. 

My husband has a 15 and 10 year old from a previous marriage. I have been a step mum since I was 21 and as a teenager I was always adamant that I would be adopting if I had children. Things change obviously and for most of the past 7 years I have been desperate to have my own genetic child. 2 years into my TTC  journey I was still adamant that I would never do ivf and that if it didn't happen then it didn't happen  . After my 2 failed ivf cycles in 2015 I was completely lost and fell into depression and hopelessness and it took me 3 years to kick myself in to touch and go again. I looked into a few clinics in the UK and paid for a few consultations and tests but came away feeling like a cash cow. 
I never even considered the donor route until my last failed cycle in Oct 2018. It wasn't that I had a problem with it. I just thought donor eggs were for people that had been told their eggs were bad quality or they didn't have any eggs left. 

I did initially worry about how ethical double donor was and I read a lot of stories on the dcn and elsewhere. I have come to the conclusion that the adults who feel a bit cheated and/or lost didn't really have the most loving upbringing. There are plenty of very happy and content donor conceived adults stories out there. Some go on to be donors themselves.  
I also came to the conclusion that there must be something seriously wrong with either my eggs or my husbands sperm that even if we did manage to have a genetic baby then it could have a high chance of abnormality. I didn't feel comfortable taking that chance after the age of 40. And this is taking into consideration that my mum had me when she was 40 and her mum had her at 40 too (natural pregnancies). Also, my sister had a naturally conceived baby at 42. 

Don't get me wrong- i do occasionally worry that our child will look so different from us that they will feel abnormal but mostly it's the best decision I ever made. 

Good luck to you all on your own unique journeys. xx


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

noanoa

Thanks for your responses. 

What you said about the sperm and the egg hits home. I am also sometimes edging towards the conclusion that there must be a problem with the dna of the eggs and/or the sperm and it’s probably better not to have our own child.


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## Rocket75 (Nov 20, 2015)

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age? 40, low AMH, Hypothyroidism, anti- thyroid antibodies 
2.  How many cycles did you have? 4
3.  What meds and protocol did you use? Cycles 1 & 2 -Natural; Cycles 3 & 4 long protocol -buserlin followed by Gonal- F (cycle 3) and Gonal- F and menopur (cycle 4) My follicles responded better to menopur. I also was on oestrogen tablets, patches and pessaries
4.  Did you also take extra supplements? Ubiquinol, aspirin, omega 3, folic acid 5mg
5.  How many eggs were collected? 1) 0 - cancelled 2) 1 embryo - stopped growing 3) 2 eggs - didn’t fertilise 4) 4 eggs - 1 fertilised - 1 successful pregnancy
7.  Did you also have male factor? Yes anti-sperm antibodies and DNA fragmentation - treated by Dr Ramsay antibiotics abs stopping smoking made a huge difference 
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)? 1 to transfer out of 4 cycles- day 3
9.  How many did you transfer? One
10. lining thickness? 7cm - tripled nicely. This was the thickest my lining got
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET? BFP on cycle 4 ( or 3 as one r was cancelled)
12. Any embryos left for freezing? No
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? Yes - 41 - MMC
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use? CRGH then moved to Lister who I greatly preferred.

I was pregnant at 41 and gave birth at 42. ❤

We were considering donor eggs as we’d had so little luck with mine but the natural pregnancy gave us hope.


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## Rosie ducks (May 1, 2018)

Hi my answers are below:

1. Unexplained infertility, I also had a blockage in my womb which the NHS told me wasn't a problem so it was only when we went private that it was dealt with. 40 for first cycle, 41 for cycle 2 & 3
2. 3 cycles, will be going for no. 4 in a few weeks
3. short protocol (I think)
4. Yes - Zita west prenatal, CoQ10 and royal jelly. For cycle no 4 I have added, vit e and c. I am also taking a high dose of folate acid, vitamin D and omega 3. This cycle    as we are going to test the embryo's rather than transfer I am also taking melatonin. I also take a short of wheatgrass each day which I personally think has improved my response in cycle 3
5. Cycle 1 - 16 eggs, cycle 2 - 7 eggs, cycle 3 - 10 eggs
6. No male factor 
7. cycle 1 - 4 embryos, cycle 2, - 4 embryos, cycle 3 - 8 embryos
8. cycle 1 - 2 day 3 embies transferred, cycle 2 - 2 day 5 embies transferred, cycle 3 - 1 day 3 embie and 2 day 5 embies transferred
9. Not sure exactly but doctors were very happy with lining
10. Cycle 1 - BFP, MMC 8 weeks, Cycle 2 & 3 - chemical pregnancies (all fresh transfers)
11. 2 embryos in freezer
12. no natural conceptions at all
13. Had decided to go for donor eggs and changed clinics but have been talked into giving my own eggs one more try (although they were not able to really give me a specific reason why anything would be different this time)
14. Cycle 1 & 2 H & E, Cycle 3 ARGC and cycle 4 is with Lister. 

I am hoping that maybe the additional supplements I have started will make a difference. I have also reduced exposure to household chemicals and BPA's etc. We are also testing any embryos this time and we are having the 2 in the freezer transferred to Lister too for testing


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## Guest (May 22, 2019)

Hi all, my father in law died suddenly on Saturday completely unexpected and has been heart breaking. My partner  is an only child and this is so hard and his mother is in a home. We will still go ahead next month with OE, and see what happens, DE is still very much off the table as he doesn’t trust the clinics and thinks the profiles they put up are just lies and you are prob just getting an egg from some down and out with issues.  I think this maybe my fault as during each ivf I have kept him away from all the trouble it takes he just thinks anyone can do it. Anyway i am not going to push, as I said before I am 50/50 let’s see what happens if this OE banking fails.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

CathA

So sorry for your loss. It must be so hard especially when not expected. 

I know that you long for a family for your husband, but bear in mind that you two are a family. And he is very lucky to have you because you seem to love him so much. This is a true blessing because true love is not easy to find. And  you also have your nephews and nieces and your side of the family that truly love him. 

In terms of the IVF take one step at a time. If the current cycles fail, then you discuss DE. I m afraid in terms of clinics I am with him. I have been with the best clinics and their lack of attention to detail is eye rolling. I could write a book. I habe ended up than when IVF works is just pure luck.

Sending you hugs


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Bump to receive some more answers


1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?


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## Rosie ducks (May 1, 2018)

CathA, so sorry for your loss, I understand only too well how devastating losing someone close can be.
It is particularly difficult when you are already struggling with IVF so please take care of yourselves and seek help if you need it. 

I wish you every luck in the world with your upcoming cycle. 

RD


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## WarriorBaby (Nov 26, 2015)

Thanks @Efi - wishing all the best to you ✨ and everyone else on this thread X


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## Ozmund (Sep 9, 2016)

Hi Efi78

Your questionnaire is a great idea, I really hope this helps other ladies make their difficult decisions.

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
      42.  Started ttc naturally at 39, had 4 mcs all between 6-10 weeks. Unexplained after spectrum of recurrent miscarriage tests.  Was put on 
      Clexane (prothrombin gene), prednisolone (although low NK cells at Coventry) and Cyclogest for last two pregancies to no avail.
      Went to fertility clinic for 2nd opinion as considering DE. FSH 7, AMH 10.9 pmol/L and AFC of 15 suggested OE ivf was worth a go.

2.  How many cycles did you have?
      1 - did not continue OE treatment due to poor results.

3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
      Flare protocol; Buserelin & FSH 400.  Quad therapy; Cyclogest 400x2, Clexane, Prednisolone 20mg

4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
      High strength folic acid, multi-vit, vit E, Vit D, Co-q10 Ubiquinol, DHEA

5.  How many eggs were collected?
      7 eggs collected, 3 mature, 2 fertilised

7.  Did you also have male factor?
      Yes, sperm fragmentation 37% - therefore used ICSI 

8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
      1 embryo at Day 3 - we requested that this was left to try and make it blast and it made it; 4AB Day 5

9.  How many did you transfer?
      Only 1 to transfer

10. lining thickness?
      Not sure but considered fine for transfer c. 8mm

11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
      BFN

12. Any embryos left for freezing?
      N

13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
      Y. 4 times naturally, all mcs

14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
      1 - we were considering it anyway after natural mcs

15. Which clinic did you use?
      Manchester Fertility

Following on from our OE cycle we had one poor DE cycle but the second was much better and I am now 11+3 following an FET.


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## rainbows44 (Oct 12, 2018)

1. 44yo. Now 45. No fertility issues other than age
2. 5 cycles
3. 1 x IVF, 3 x ICSI (2 with HIER protocol of early triggering), 1 x IUI 
drugs: IVF Cycle 1: menopur 150iu+saizen 1ml CD5-10. Added orgalutran 250 CD 9-12. Menopur 450+ Pregnyl trigger on CD11. egg collection CD13

This first cycle was the best - i had implantation bleeding and cramps the day after. No progesterone support was given after. All other cycles, given progesterone support (except IUI). 2 blasts didn't stick

ICSI Cycle 2: menopur 150iu + Saizen 1ml CD5-10. Menopur 150 only CD11, 12. Menopur 150 + orgalutran CD13. Menopur 150iu; 2nd Menopur 450iu; 250iu orgalutran; Pregnyl 5000 trigger on CD 14. Egg collection CD16. 2 eggs, 1 blastocyst - didn't stick

ICSI Cycle 3: menopur 300iu + saizen 1ml CD2-5. Saizen was supposed to be double strength but i didn't realise. CD 6&7 they had me take the whole pack of saizen in one go - 3mg, plus Menopur 300iu, each day. CD8 two-part trigger Menopur 300iu; 2-part trigger: 1 dose 10,000 pregnyl 9pm. Next dose 12 hours away. CD9 10,000 pregnyl trigger. CD10 egg collection/

This high-drug cycle was the worst. It warped the eggs, one was deformed like a shell with no yolk. 4 eggs. One of the blastocysts was deformed. One didn't grow. But one good one resulted and was implanted. Didn't stick. So - 1 blast, didn't stick.

ICSI Cycle 4: CD3-CD8 Menopur 300iu, Saizen 1ml (the double dose of saizen but spread out over the whole cycle - it's 1ml in volume but it's half the bottle of powder in each instead of 1/3.) CD9 - Menopur 300. CD10 Pregnyl 5000 trigger. CD11 Pregnyl 5000 Trigger (12 hours apart) CD12 egg collection. 3 eggs, 2 blasts didn't stick.

IUI: Cycle 5 - no drugs given. CAN'T be pregnant as the SPERM NEVER HIT THE EGG because the washed sperm were put in my uterus 48 hours before ovulation. Sperm only last 6 hours before swimming out into your peritoneal cavity. Any that get trapped in there lose energy after 12 hours and cannot pierce the pellucidae. Sperm need to be in the cervical mucous reservoir which they gradually move through into the uterus so there's a steady stream of them to fertilise the egg when it comes down the chute.

That's why studies say to wait till you see follicle rupture before putting sperm in there: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582119/

4. Fish oil, nadh, folic acid (i'm stopping this now after reports too much causes autism), co-q10, zinc, spirulina, multivitamin
5. between one and three eggs off each cycle
7. Male sperm donor, excellent sperm, no issues.
8. Always had one or two blastocysts to transfer on day 3 - so the eggs were good enough to make a blast. 
9. 2, 1, 1, 2 blasts implant day 3, none of them stuck. IUI given 48 hours before ovulation so no chance to work as washed sperm only last 6 hours in the uterus and are only motile enough to break the pellucidae for 12 hours without sustenance from cervical mucous.
10. lining thickness? - cycle 1 was trilaminar at first ultrasound. i have no idea other than that, they never told me. I haven't been told there is any issue with it.
11. No pregnancy yet
12. No freezing
13. No attempt at natural conception as donor is overseas
14. I will keep going until I get pregnant with my own eggs (I want to have my own child, not someone else's - otherwise you might as well just adopt or foster). I will try switching to IUI within 6 hours of follicle release, after follicle rupture, if it is possible to get my clinic to do this.
15. Cannot name the clinic as I am still undergoing treatment, for privacy issues. It's in Australia. They treat people with their own eggs even up to 50

*Good luck with your research project, I hope this information is useful for you
*
NOTE: It would be nice if someone could also help me out with some information, I am looking for scientific studies that state exactly how long washed sperm from IUI remain in the uterus/fallopian tubes before moving past the point at which they can meet and fertilise an egg. Nobody has responded as yet. It's a separate thread.


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## loveshoes (May 16, 2018)

I came across this thread because I’m trying to make a decision about what to do next after four failed cycles.... I’ve just turned 41 and from the research I’ve been doing, my chances of becoming pregnant naturally is 5% and my chances of becoming pregnant via IVf is 9%. My AMH is very low and so I think my chances are probably less than the average for my age.

1.  39, age plus AMH 0.8 and FSH 25 
2.  4 so far
3.  All short protocol, 1st one with 450 Gonal F, 3 with 150 Gonal F
4.  Just Pregnacare and extra folic acid during the first two cycles, and then lots in the second two cycles
5.  0, 3, 1, 1
7.  No male factor
8.  2 x 2 day, 1 x 2 day (AA)
9.  2, 1
10. Can’t remember but was always good
11. 1 x BFP (resulted in mmc), 1 x BFN
12. No
13. Not yet but still hopeful! 
14. After 4 failed cycles we are currently trying to decide what’s next. Whether to throw more money at IVF or not. And if not, then what?
15. King’s Fertility


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2019)

I would keep going especially seen as you did get pregnant. How about trying 3 banking cycles to get more embryos, and leave then to day 5? You could still find that egg but time and money are the issue. I would do the banking and if that fails you know you have tried your best but if finances are tight and you are putting yourself in debt for this then you need to revise situation. I personally have done 10 rounds and no joy and will finish now at 44 with 3 banking natural modified but I haven’t caused myself debts doing this although he has effected bank balance I would have stopped long time ago with odds I was given if I was putting it in credit card and thought more seriously about DE.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Loveshoes

You mention that you did 1 with 450 GonalF and 3 with 150 GonalF. Were the last three supposed to be mild IVF? Didyou notice difference in the quality of the eggs collected/embryos formed? I understand that you had 0 eggs collected on 450 GonalF?

Also, it is  said that Menopur is better for older women and produces better egg quality. 

According to my research the % of getting pregnant with IVF is 9% vs 5% naturally indeed. That’s why I opened this thread. To see if it worths doing IVF at over 40. If difference in the % of success is only 4% is it worth the emotional and financial investment or should we move on to DE/adoption/giving up earlier?

CathA - i agree on the financial point. However, it’s not only that. It’s also down to the emotional investment and the odds not being much higher with IVF rather than natural at our age. And what is the impact of all these drugs on health in the long term? I am thinking that eventually the odds of falling pregnant in our age - if all well in terms of fallopian tubes, hormones, still ovulating- are almost the same IVF or not. And yes most pregnancies I hear at this age are either natural or through DE. Let’s continue in this thread and see if any other 40+ lady fell pregnant with IVF OE. So far I can recall only 1. Mind you it’s worth pointing out that those that did make it didn’t have male factor.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Bump

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?
2.  How many cycles did you have?
3.  What meds and protocol did you use?
4.  Did you also take extra supplements?
5.  How many eggs were collected?
7.  Did you also have male factor?
8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?
9.  How many did you transfer?
10. lining thickness?
11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles?fresh or FET?
12. Any embryos left for freezing?
13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 
14. If unsuccesful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?
15. Which clinic did you use?


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## loveshoes (May 16, 2018)

CathA said:


> I would keep going especially seen as you did get pregnant. How about trying 3 banking cycles to get more embryos, and leave then to day 5? You could still find that egg but time and money are the issue. I would do the banking and if that fails you know you have tried your best but if finances are tight and you are putting yourself in debt for this then you need to revise situation. I personally have done 10 rounds and no joy and will finish now at 44 with 3 banking natural modified but I haven't caused myself debts doing this although he has effected bank balance I would have stopped long time ago with odds I was given if I was putting it in credit card and thought more seriously about DE.


CathA - The embryologists have always wanted to put the embryos back in as soon as possible, I think they think that they have the best chance in the natural environment. Do you know what the advantages of banking cycles are? We haven't incurred any debt yet but we don't really have any savings left. So we'd have to save for a couple of months then do a cycle, save for a couple of months then do a cycle.


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## loveshoes (May 16, 2018)

Efi78 said:


> Loveshoes
> 
> You mention that you did 1 with 450 GonalF and 3 with 150 GonalF. Were the last three supposed to be mild IVF? Didyou notice difference in the quality of the eggs collected/embryos formed? I understand that you had 0 eggs collected on 450 GonalF?
> 
> ...


Efi78
The last three with 150 GonalF were what my clinic called modified natural, I _think_ that and Mild IVF are essentially the same thing... The first cycle with 450 GonalF produced one follicle and zero eggs. The embryos that were produced out of the modified natural cycles were good/minor fragmentation, the last one was top grade but that's the one that gave me a BFN. I don't know what the quality of the eggs were, I don't think they told me.

I'm trying to balance in my head whether the financial and emotional cost of IVF is worth the tiny 4% increase in odds of success, of what are already very low odds to begin with. My boyfriend is up for another go if I decide I want to.... I also wonder whether to try a different clinic, but then that's another big decision


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Loveshoes

If you don’t have male factor maybe it’s worth doing another one.

I am not so keen because we have male factor + old eggs.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2019)

Sorry only saw your posts now. Banking is better because you might get more eggs and you get a discount when you sign up for 3, if low egg numbers are the problem it is a good option.I have just started my 3 banking cycles today at the age of 44.2. 
Day 5 scan, no drugs yet, shows 6 follicles, 1 on right size = 10; 5 on left size = 8,7,5,5,5. Will start 150 bemfola tonight, another scan Thursday. I don’t hold out much hope of more then 1 follicle growing as this happened last time where the one on 10 took over and the rest just disappeared, let’s see, will keep all updated so maybe it will help others.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Hi CathA

6 follicles are good and it seems that they are close to each other size wise so fingers crossed. 

Let us know how it goes. I am really interested to dee if there is a difference in egg/embryo quality comparing with standard IVF


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2019)

Had scan this morning and 12,10,9,8,8,7,6,5 so still close together. Hopefully will get 3-4 growing up. They trigger at lead 16mm so doesn’t really give much time for them all to grow.They did this on my first one and they got eggs out of ones that were 12-14 on trigger. It has been said though in older women triggering at 14mm is a good idea as the environment they are in isn’t great. Let’s see have another scan on Saturday will let you know, still nerve wracking even after doing this 10 times!


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## Flyby (Feb 25, 2012)

Yes, I have a feeling that I triggered when mine were around 14mm/16mm x


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2019)

Thanks for that, gives me more faith they know what they are doing not waiting beyond 16mm.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2019)

Had last scan today and some of the  follicles have grown more than others, so R = 19,13 L = 17,12,12,11,8,5.
Trigger tonight I just hope that the 12’s and 13 grow enough and they collect something from them on Wednesday. On the old protocol they would have left it for another day or 2 so the smaller ones we could collect but that didn’t lead to a good quality so I guess have to go along with this and see what I get.


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2019)

Quick update: they trigger me when the follicles were 19,17,13,12,12,11,8.
Yesterday was egg collection and they got 5 eggs, so 12mm can make a matured egg which is good to know.
Today they told me all were mature and 3 fertilised. So now I wait till Saturday day 3 to see what can be frozen, fingers cross we will have something to freeze..


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2019)

Bad news really on day 3. One is morula stage and the other 2 are only 6 cell with 40% fragmentation so they won’t freeze. They will leave them now to day 5 but doesn’t look like any will make it. Am very disappointed and having to do 2 more isn't very appealing with such a bad start


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## Qpmz (Apr 16, 2018)

Sorry to hear that CathA. There’s hope for the morula isn’t there? And the other two might still make it. There’s so much unpredictability in this and your best embryos could come from your 2nd or 3rd batching cycle. When I did batching I got a small amount of comfort from not having to endure a TWW and being able to crack on with the next cycle. It isn’t easy but you’re still very much in the game.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2019)

Thanks for that. They said a morula at day 3 isn’t really great as that should be day 4. That happened to me before and the embryo didn’t make it. The other 2 might make it but doesn’t seem great with all the fragmentation. They will phone tomorrow so will see. You are right in the skipping of the dreaded 2ww does make things a bit easier. Just feeling that the quality of the eggs is going down hill as they always looked great on day 3 but now they aren’t even making it to that. My OH still has hope as he says we only need one and hopefully might find it in the next 2 rounds and if we don’t we don’t but we know we tried our hardest.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2019)

Just a quick update, I can’t believe it but one made it to freeze on day 5 4BC rating. The other 2 they will leave for another day and see as not there yet. Feel a bit better now we have one in the freezer


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## Qpmz (Apr 16, 2018)

That’s great news. You must be relieved and hopefully spurred on for the next round!


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2019)

Am definitely relived and feel it is worth going forward for next round. It is so hard to keep going especially at 44 cause you feel a bit silly.Should be starting again in less than 2 weeks and said to my OH I don’t mind skipping a month if follicle growth is low after a week but will only skip one more time as I know month by month is so different but we need to balance that against age, decisions decisions decisions........


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## Lindy100 (Jun 10, 2017)

Finally getting around to filling this out! 

1.  How old where you when you started IVF? Any fertility issues besides age?

Started IVF at age 37 (ttc since age 35). Severe male factor with poor morphology, motility, and < 100,000 in terms of numbers. DH is 4 years older than me.

2.  How many cycles did you have?

4 in total

3.  What meds and protocol did you use?

Can't remember all of the protocols, but it was all of the usual medications (Fragmin, Menopur, etc.).

4.  Did you also take extra supplements?

No, only prenatal vitamins (hubby only took basic vitamins as well).

5.  How many eggs were collected?

Between 2 and 6, depending on cycle.

7.  Did you also have male factor?

Yes, severe.

8.  How many embryos did you get (3 day or 5 day)?

First cycle we got 2 embryos (3 day), second cycle we got 2 morulas (4 day), third cycle 1 embryo (2 days), fourth cycle 2 embryos (3 day).

9.  How many did you transfer?

All of them each time.

10. lining thickness?

Not known.

11. BFP/BFN? If BFP after how many cycles? fresh or FET?

First cycle BFP (at age 3; all others were BFN. All fresh.

12. Any embryos left for freezing?

Never.  

13. Did you ever manage a natural conception at 40+? 

Yes, shortly before beginning our fifth cycle started we achieved a natural pregnancy because my husband FINALLY had varicocele surgery/embolization. I am age 41 with very low AMH.

14. If unsuccessful, after how many cycles you decided enough is enough and moved to Donor/adoption/gave up?

Happily, we have the natural pregnancy; we were possibly considering DE for our fifth cycle due to the low statistics. (Mentally, I didn't want to try with OE after age 42-ish. And the cost of the OE cycles was getting to be too much.)

15. Which clinic did you use?

CRCH (twice, achieved BFP first time but they are SO expensive!), Bahceci abroad (once, with our worst results), Gennet (once, we were planning on returning there for the fifth cycle this summer)

I don't know if these results are helpful or not!  I guess my biggest advice is if you have male factor with varicocele problems then MAKE SURE that he has the surgery - we were told that it likely wouldn't improve anything, but obviously it worked long enough to catch an egg!


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2019)

Bad news today, my period came a week early and when they scanned me I had a 2cm cyst and only 2  follicles on day 5. I am not going to go ahead this month as have had this once before and it resolved in a few weeks. So going to do second cycle end of this month. It’s not too bad as my periods are coming early anyway so I don’t have too long to wait. Fingers crossed it all looks ok to start end of month.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Hello everyone and apologies for the radio silence!I am in greece under the sun and I try to use technology as little as possible!

CathA, good news on the 4BC embryo. Welldone and good luck.

Lindy100 - hubby has a small varicocele but Dr Ramsay performed some tests and doesn’t seem to affect as ROS are very low. He has good numbers and motility now and we have conceived naturally twice. 

AFM - went on with the FET in June but canceled. It was semi-medicated cycle doing FSH injections 75mg day by day and Evorel patches every three days, however I ovulated early because of the FSHs and the clinic wasn’t sure when to transfer. Therefore....FET cycle canceled. I am now looking to transfer in august or September. Sigh..This month trying naturally just in case...

I don’t know...I know it sounds silly but somehow I do know that somehow, not sure when, we are having a little girl. I have seen multiple times in my sleep the same little girl with brown hair and hazelnut eyes. The thing is that me being a tomboy I always wanted boys. But it’s the same little girl every time. The funny thing is that my mum, without having told her anything about my dreams, also had a dream of a little girl with brown hair sleeping. Sigh...some parapsychology here lol. It will be interesting though if it happens.


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## Delectable_Sunshine (Jun 6, 2016)

How're you all doing ladies?

I hope you're well with good news to share.

I'm 42 and going for IVF this year. I'm looking to go abroad for value. 
I hope to start video consultations with the clinics in 2 weeks but still have a long list needing narrowing down.
As Efi noted and Flyby bears testament to, it appears minimal stimulation works best for over 40s. I first heard this from Dr Silber at ICoSL in the US. I live in the UK so I shall be looking at clinics in Prague and N.Cyprus and perhaps Serum. Shall see if any of them say this or nudge us in the direction of DE.


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## Delectable_Sunshine (Jun 6, 2016)

Have you considered clinics abroad? Turkey, Cyprus etc? Turkey doesn't allow donor procedures so they'll do the best they can using your own eggs but might be difficult with donor sperm.


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