# Failed ivf, plan B?



## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Hi,

I'm relatively new here and feel I need to vent and seek advice - I hope that's OK?

I'm 44yrs, DH is 48. 18 mths ago we stumbled across "natural ivf" at a clinic close to us in Manchester. We were completely taken in by how having less stimulating meds, having lots of egg collections and hopefully only one transfer will more likely provide us with the baby of our dreams.

Anyway, I stimm'd on a very low dose, first in Oct 18. There were apparently 8 or 9 follicles, but only 2 could be retrieved. One perished, the other became a grade A embryo on day 3 (8 cells) and we were told it was to be put in the freezer, ready for the time of transfer. We have subsequently discovered that that embryo should have been allowed to develop to day 5 and by freezing it earlier it was at risk of damage. When I questioned the embryologist on why it was put back on day 3 (during my 2nd cycle), she told me that it "is policy with the first egg collection at this clinic - so that we have something".

We had bought a package, so we carried on with 2 more egg collections. Each time they collected 5 eggs, none made it. Finally, we got to September 2019 - the month for embryo transfer. I had been telling my consultant ever since I had met him that my periods were very scanty and  that I was concerned about my uterine lining. He told me it wasn't a worry and that we would put back my embryo at the same time my body had ovulated - so it would be a natural cycle. Unsurprisingly to me, my uterine lining didn't progress past 6mm and my cycle was abandoned. I was charged 400GBP extra for the privilege of two scans at this time. My thyroid then went nuts and I had to put off embryo transfer until January 2020. 

Two weeks ago they thawed my only embryo. 4 cells had died. They never told me that embryos might not survive the freeze until AFTER my embryo was frozen. I foolishly thought only eggs were vulnerable in the freezer. Anyway, the consultant felt it was still viable so I had it transferred. Today I got the news that it had failed. 

What I'm wondering now is
-Does anyone know if it is preferable to freeze at day 5 over day 3, or is this just common practice in clinics? 
- Surely, clinics are supposed to give full informed consent and therefore fully inform the patient of the risk of the embryo not surviving being frozen?
- My dh are now talking donor embryos, but probably abroad. Would anyone be able to kindly point me in the direction of any groups/forums that advise on clinics abroad? 

Thanks for reading,

Amber x


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Can no one advise?


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2020)

I too had mild ivf, and they can freeze on day 3 or day 5. They only wait to day 5 as they did with me if embryo is not good on day 3 to give it time, yours was good so freezing was ok. I too had 3 rounds at 44 and only had one day 5 4bc embryo to transfer, it did survive the thaw but got a bfn. It is known that embryos do sometimes, think it is about 20%, don’t survive the thaw, so it isn’t unusually but I know disappointing if you hadn’t been told the stat.I just think like me at 44 we were throwing the dice one last time but didn’t get lucky and that is it really.
As for embryo adoption, don’t know about that as my DH and I have decided not to proceed any further as I have had loads of failed cycles and been at this for 3 years And donor egg/embryo raises more questions than answers for us so not something we will pursue. I sometimes wish I could be more accepting of it like others but am just not that kind of person and would worry about every little thing instead of enjoying it.
Anyway, Good luck am sure there are loads of women on here who know about donations.


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## Stacey10 (Jun 7, 2013)

I can't help with your first questions, apart from that even top quality day 5 blasts sometimes don't survive being thawed, it's rare but it does happen. Day 3 I would think, maybe happens a bit more because there aren't as many cells, so if a few get damaged, it would be harder for the embryo to recover. 
Donor embryos are a great option, I went to a clinic in the Czech Republic called zlin, there you can do a fresh donor egg cycle using donor sperm or they have already created embryos ready to go, it's an awesome clinic and very well regarded and priced. I had success there both times. They will only treat hetro couples and to 49 as per the countries law. Here is a link to the thread, it's a wee bit quiet on there at the moment as most ladies are pregnant, I started the thread 6 years ago and the majority of ladies who have posted on the thread have got pregnant &#128578;
https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=399453.2140


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## snowdropwood (Jan 24, 2016)

hi, the Donor Conception Network website might be useful. ( UK based )  I found that in looking abroad I didn't know where the start tbh  - the donor embryo / abroad threads on this forum might be useful too x


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## Poppy41London (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi there, I am sorry you feel your clinic misinformed you and am sorry to hear things didn't work out after what was quite a long process...

Unfortunately lots of people don't get pregnant from their first embryo transfer. And at 44 the chance of success with your own eggs is very low anyway - I don't know if they informed you of that? To illustrate, I think when I was 43 (after 3 rounds of IVF and one miscarriage) my UK clinic told me that only 5% of women at the age of 43 will successfully get pregnant, and half of them unfortunately will miscarry. So you are looking at about 2.5% of women who actually have a baby of their own. That means it can happen, and some women on this forum can testify to that, having been the lucky ones, but chances are slim... 

As a result, that's why I personally decided to move on from my own eggs to donor eggs at a clinic in Spain. I have had two cycles of donor eggs and both times got pregnant, though unfortunately have miscarried both times. However I do have some frozen embryos left from my last cycle. My clinic in Spain only freezes 5 day embryos and they only transfer 5 day embryos if you are having a fresh cycle. However I know in the UK that 3 day transfers are still quite common with some clinics, I had one myself when I only had one embryo produced from a cycle. And I actually got pregnant from that 3 day transfer, but unfortunately had a miscarriage in the first trimester.

Anyway, you mentioned looking at donor embryos now. I wondered is there a reason why you don't want to explore donor eggs and use your partner's sperm? If the sperm is ok, it would seem to me that donor eggs could be a very good option for you and one that could be worth exploring. 

Best of luck. X


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thank you ladies for your replies, they are much appreciated. I do feel mis-led by our ivf clinic. At the initial meeting we had, we were told that mild ivf for older women gave the eggs a much better chance of being better quality at collection. We were advised to buy a package of x3 egg collections, all the embryos collected would be frozen, then at the end we would have x1 transfer. We were advised that we had a 20% success rate if we agreed to this. Of course, 18 months after all the collections and transfers we discovered this not to be the case. We've spent nearly 20,000GBP and were only told after the first egg collection about the risks of freezing embryos at day 3 and even the clinic staff said it was riskier than freezing at day 5, but that was their "policy". Anyway, what's done is done and it's time to move forward. 

Thank you for the links. I will look into these. We are going to speak to Prague Medica shortly and discuss both ED and donor embryo. My partner has had OATS previously, but with acupuncture and high grade fertility supplements we have managed to turn this around. Unfortunately, his sperm didn't survive being frozen well and he's worried about DNA fragmentation too, which is why he wants to discuss donor embryo. 

CathA - I'm sorry that you've been unsuccessful. You are very brave to take the decision to stop. TBH I am almost there...


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## snowdropwood (Jan 24, 2016)

Hi - just recognized a few things when reading your posts-  I am 43 ( just ) had a 3 package cycle ( donor sperm as single ) with modified natural IVF  - actually had 4 goes as the first was cancelled , the fourth was cancelled too - the second and third ET failed .  I have moved to another clinic where there is not a wait list for egg donation ( Bristol) and have a Consultant appointment soon with a view to egg donation ( double donation in my case) .  I had a phone therapy session today which was helpful  - it is one step at a time I guess, very challenging .  I find the forums and DCN ( as mentioned b4) helpful  in this difficult process - really important I feel to question clinics, find advice and support and make enquiries  - really best wishes moving forward x


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thank you snowdropwood. Good luck to you with your next cycle.


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## kittykat76 (Jan 17, 2016)

Sorry you feel misled, these clinics aren't always good at telling you the negative side of IVF unfortunately. As others have said lots of ladies don't get PG 1st go and its often a game of numbers, the more transfers you have the higher the chance of it working. As for the natural IVF I think clinics are misleading ladies, a lower does may result in slightly more eggs but at 43/44 the majority of them will have abnormalities sadly. I had my son at nearly 41 and was very lucky to get 3 PGS normal embies but I said I wouldn't keep going with my own eggs beyond 42 or when I stopped producing PGS normal embies,whichever came 1st. I had decided to move to embryo adoption after and looked at Serum in Greece, several friends have had success in Czech at reprofit and gennet. Good luck with your next cycle and achieving your dreams


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks kitykat76. We've spoken to Gest and Gynem. I've also seen reviews for Serum. I'm just so undecided - it feels like playing Russian roulette.


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## Poppy41London (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi Amber, have you considered clinics in Spain? They may cost a bit more than some of the other countries in Europe, but they have consistently high standards and a lot of the clinics are cutting edge in terms of their technology and treatment. 

I am having treatment at Clinic Vistahermosa in Alicante and I really can't fault it in terms of the treatment and the medical care and support. I have had two donor egg cycles and got pregnant both times, though unfortunately also miscarried twice. However I do have some frozen embryos left from my last cycle. I know they do offer double donor as well as donor egg. It's also very easy to get to from the UK which makes it less stressful. Just a thought anyway in case you haven't considered Spain. 

Best of luck.


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks Poppy41London!! I appreciate your recommendation. Unfortunately, after x3 rounds of private ivf in the UK budget is a factor so it looks like we'll head to CR.


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## miamiamo (Aug 9, 2015)

I am sorry to know about failed IVF-s. Poland is affordable and effective option. My friends and me have been happy with Invicta clinics. Top notch treatment and excellent service. Good luck with your journey. x


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thank you miamiamo. I have been looking into them too. Still very undecided.


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## Londonwriter (Mar 18, 2015)

As others have mentioned, succeeding on a first cycle in your mid-40s with an embryo that hasn't had testing for chromosomal abnormalities is unlikely. Even if your fertility is good and you're at a good clinic (this doesn't sound like one), you're looking at *minimum* three transfers to get pregnant. 

I think you need to see a clinic who can give you an assessment of your likely egg reserve and might be willing to do PGS to check whether you are actually producing any chromosomal normal embryos.

Just as a counterpoint to the people urging DE or natural cycle IVF for everyone near/over 40, in the world of 'fertile' women, 40+ is *not* too old to have children, and people have repeatedly laughed at me when I said I went to IVF at 39 because I was 'too old' to try naturally. The problem is that, for many ladies who end up having fertility treatment for a first child at 40, their main problem is age related. This skews the discussion quite a bit. In the wider world, lots of women who have conceived naturally in the past have second and subsequent children in their 40s.

To give an example, aged 39, I got 12 eggs on a high-stim cycle of which 7 were mature, 7 reached blastocyst (5-day stage) and 6 were suitable for freezing. Out of those, unfortunately, only one was chromosomal normal - due to my age - but statistically I could have had anywhere between 0 and 3 normals. I'm probably similar to the 'average' 39-year-old woman, I was infertile in my early 30s and the cause appears to be a life-altering autoimmune/inflammatory disorder - my egg reserve/quality is probably affected by my disease and I did conceive (eventually) naturally at 36 with immune treatment. 

It is potentially possible that you can conceive with own egg at 44, but you need to be realistic about your chances. It is possible you do have severely-compromised egg quality - and that's your major issue. To find that out, you need to be at a clinic who do relevant investigations, don't waste your time and money on cycles with a limited chance of success, do regular monitoring of issues like lining thickness, and are realistic and unbiased about your *individual* chances (not just population-wide stats).


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## AmberJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Thank you Londonwriter, I wish these clinics would be more honest, rather than just take our money. I attended an open day with them. The talk was very convincing and we were told that the reason why traditional ivf fails is because it is so brutal with the high doses and that eggs get damaged. At no point did they say that most of our eggs would be abnormal. We were told that the defective ones would less likely grow as we were having gentle ivf, so the good ones would be the ones we'd probably get. How I wished I'd been on this site before spending all that money!!

Re. the age thing, I completely get it. I'm a midwife and see lots of women in their 40s having babies, but yes, most of them are having 2nd and 3rd children, not their first. 

We have now decided on donor egg, I couldn't go through all this again and waste more time and money. I've had 4 egg collections over the last 4 years with only one embryo to show for it. I didn't know at the time that I had hashimotos, hypothyroidism, extremely low vitamin D, abnormally low B12 and abnormally low DHEA. I did all this testing independently after asking for NHS GPs to test me over the last 12yrs. Of course, they refused and said there was no reason I couldn't get pregnant. 

Our NHS and fertility clinics in the UK are depriving couples of having families of their own at a time when they potentially could have them - if their problems were diagnosed and treated beforehand.


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