# Little Baby P xxx



## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

Is anyone else unable to look at the cover of the paper today?

I am feeling physically sick about the whole thing, and really emotional too.

How can anyone do such a thing to the little angel.


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## Wraakgodin (Jun 17, 2006)

I agree 100% with you Lulu, I just can't put it into words at the moment....

Sue


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## ❁ BG2007 ❁ (Jun 26, 2007)

We've been talking about poor Baby P on the Sparkles thread, I have found it really hard to read with out crying too. It's too awful to even imagine. 

Every time I think about it I end up picturing W's face on that computer image of Baby P. The poor, poor boy.


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## ~ S ~ (Oct 27, 2003)

I actually burst in to tears watching the 10pm news the other night when they spoke of some more of his injuries.

I know babies can be little pickles sometimes but what these people have done beggars belief. 

I really do hope they get all what's coming to them, evil, nasty, twisted  

Just hope little baby P is at peace and happy now in heaven, poor precious little boy  

I'm actually crying again now, it's so dreadful  

S xxx


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## LizzyM (Feb 12, 2007)

I cant, just cant read or watch anything about this poor poor little angel who has done nothing wrong in this world  

Its just so heartbreaking and cruel 

RIP baby P


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## saphy75 (Mar 15, 2004)

I have cried buckets over this    i can't bring myself to read the full details of what happened to that poor little angel, how could anyone do something so evil   

pam xx


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## ❁ BG2007 ❁ (Jun 26, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with you LuLu, I did the same a couple evenings ago and then sat in front of my supper with tears pouring down my face. Even my DH got tears in his eyes, his work sees him looking into forensic reports and he said it is the worst case he'd ever heard of


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## Suzie (Jan 22, 2004)

Words fail me  Having inside knowlegdge of social services it amazes me that a case such as this got to this point 

Rest in peace little man xx


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## sallyanne1 (Oct 23, 2006)

I burst into tears in sainsburys when i saw the newspaper     That poor little mite

Lulu i have been thinking the same hun


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## professor waffle (Apr 23, 2005)

I too can't listen to what was done to him, even the sight of his clothes with blood on them & then a computer image of his injuries made me feel ill. I think of N at the same age all happy & smiley & think how different P's life was, I can't bear it


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## turkish delight (Aug 24, 2008)

I too was unable to read the reports or look at the photos but when i sae his baby blue eyes i just couldn’t hold back the tears how can anyone hurt a baby like this  
I can’t get it out of my head .... & the doctors  and SS well i just feel sick 

RIP Angel Baby P xx


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

Its too horrible for words  
The descriptions of the injuries he suffered were just barbaric. I do have sympathy for social workers in general and definately wouldnt want to have their job..but come on! it wouldnt have taken a scientist to work out that this baby was suffering in an unimaginable way. To hurt an innocent baby this way, by the people he looked at to love and protect him is absolutely sickening.. jail will simply be too good for these creatures.  

Pobby x


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## Mrs Nikki (Nov 13, 2004)

RIP little one x


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## dakota (Feb 6, 2007)

I too havent been able to read all the stories as they just make me cry  

RIP little man


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

it is horrific, so was Victoria Climbie (who died at the same hospital and under the same social services) - Baby P unlike Victoria had all the services engaged in his care, she didn't there were assumptions made etc, and yet this can still happen.

It is so sad, and what is even worse is that it will happen again and again, all these children are dying in vain, at the hands of their parents under the full view of the statutory authorities.


Also what is not made is explicit  in all the papers is that Great Ormond Street Hospital (the child first and always motto etc) employs and directly manages the paediatric Drs in Harinegy and all the Drs and Nurses in the children's wards at the North Middlesex Hospital, they were responsible for the medical examinations of child P! so there was plenty of expertise around for the Dr to consult with if she was in doubt between chocolate and bruises, a child with a broken back and unresponsive.  It makes my blood boil that there are such incompetent (so called) professionals out there who cannot do a basic job.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2008)

I had tears streaming at reading this report, it was horrific.  DH said he just wanted to come home and give our two a big hug after reading it.  How someone can do something that horrific and with such force to a baby is despicable.  I know ours can be right little gits but to break bones and cover them up by smearing stuff over him I just hope he didn't realise what was happening, despite all the pain he must have been in.  At least it's over now, poor little thing and he can rest in peace now.


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## Debs (Mar 22, 2002)

I cant read the papers or watch the tv about any of this it just makes me so very very sad.

How on earth it got past so many people is beyond me.

Please God tighter controls will be put in place and lessons learnt as no child should ever ever have to endure a life like poor p did and then die at the hands of such monsters who were supposed to look after him and love him.

Love

Debs xxx


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## JaneNewcastle (Jun 17, 2005)

Unfortunately children dying at the hands of their parents is much more common than we realise, but it's usually in temper, lashing out.  This awful case was months of sustained torture, I just can't bear to read the details.  

It has affected me in a different way today, with my little one having such white blonde hair and blue eyes, I can't help but compare them and wonder again what forces determine which families we are born into.

I read an article about the pain of Baby P's real father, recalling a happy bouncing little boy, and I couldn't help wondering how he didn't notice something was wrong either.

I also watched the Channel 4 documentary about the Witch Children of Nigeria this week, I can't stop thinking about those poor little ones outcast, abused, beaten or murdered, all because some Pentecostal Minister saw a chance to get rich performing the exorcism of the children accused.  

Back to the UK I've seen social support working in the family of a friend of mine, her nephew was suffering and she got them involved, and they followed the standard procedure, work at all costs to keep the children with the parents, and in some cases that probably is the right thing to do, but in others, some people are just not meant to be parents.  

I know of people adopting, who have heartbreaking waiting times to be matched with their future families, and in the meantime the poor children continue to suffer.

The problem is that while the intentions of the procedure are good, keeping children with families who are at best neglecting them, and at worst abusing them, mentally or physically, cannot work unless adequate resources are available to properly monitor and support the situation.

I'm a really big animal lover, and do things to support our local cat and dog shelter, but I never fail to be shocked at the fact that we as a country give so much more money to the RSPCA than we do to the NSPCC.  Apparently we as a nation believe that the animals are helpless, but that children are the responsibility of the family.

Perhaps the media coverage will do something to shift that balance.

RIP little man, nobody can hurt you now, wherever you are, you are no longer in pain.


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## Hope 2 B (Mar 26, 2003)

Dh has just come home with todays paper(sunday).....OMG....i am in floods of tears ....what they did to that little angel ....& ive only seen the headlines as i feel physically sick ...

Please sleep tight little one ....im so sorry you had such an awful life     ......


Hope XXX


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## ♥ cat ♥ (Apr 13, 2003)

Its awful. How any mother could do that is beyond me. It shocked me when i heard she laughted in court when they read out some of the injuries. They are the meaning of the word evil. 

RIP little one xxxxx


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

Diva    Know what you mean hun........
yes, if there is an after life one of us will be his mummy and he will be showered with love....... wish it was that easy really but sometimes you have to believe these things as otherwise its just too much to take isnt it?    
pobby xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

panorama 830 BBC1 are showing his story tomorrow, painful to watch but hopefully they will learn from it.

RIP little one  I  that you are safe and painfree, and in a much better place - with our angels playing.


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

There are always two sides to every story and I will be interested to watch Panorama to find out what actions were taken by social services .. it is not as simple as you would think to remove a child from its Mother ..unfortunately in this case.

Cat x


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## dakota (Feb 6, 2007)

I too keep questioning how his father didnt notice anything was wrong


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Yeah that did cross my mind .. he is slating social services but errr where was he in all this !


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

I must admit that went through my mind aswell.........
I read some awful things on the fron page of the independant today about the state of the flat baby P was living in..dead animals on the floor for the snake to feed on, a rotweiler was allowed to attack the baby..something else really grim abput one of the men involved.. Im sorry but if you were a sw and you went round to a house like that surely it would be obvious to take the baby away? I know its not that simple but how much more evidence did they need??


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Problem is these people are very clever and would probably not let the social workers in when its in this state .. according to the latest news report it was legal services that said there wasn't enough evidence for the child to be taken away   I guess these people were very devious ..I mean to go to the lengths of smothering the child with chocolate to hide bruising is pretty sick isn't it


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

yes it is sick and that makes it all the worse that they were so devious...it takes some calculation to go to those lengths.
Ultimately, we obviously cant lay the blame at the SW door or the Dr..they have got a case to answer but they arent the criminals here and I really would hate to be in their shoes. its the monsters that did all of this and all that will happen is they will get to languish in jail for a few yrs...what use are they in this society? you know what Im thinking girls so i wont say it as know its too controversial but thats how i feel about people that are this evil  

p x


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## professor waffle (Apr 23, 2005)

Pobby I think what you're thinking of is too good for them! I hope they get what they deserve in prison as I'm sure the other inmates will have their own way of treating child abusers. Perhaps when they experience the same violence they dished out to a small innocent baby they will realise but it will be too late, hopefully they will never be allowed out of prison either


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

your right..it would be too good for them and like you say i hope they get whats coming to them in prison. Having said that they will probably be segregated for their own safety which is a bloody shame.


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

The baby was taken off the mother and given to another family member for 4 months as a private fostering arrangement  by SS in Dec 06/Jan 07, the Guardian said that it would have been the happiest time of his little life as he thrived, and then why did  SS gave him back to her fr the abuse to start again....

The Witchcraft programme is repeated on More 4 tonight at 10 pm
L x


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

thanks for that JJ1...will watch that...though know it will be depressing    x


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## Hayleigh (Apr 29, 2008)

I must admit, I have avoided reading about poor poor baby P, just didnt feel ready to read it, but today I did read the horrific story in the Sunady newspaper. I just couldnt believe what I was reading, I still cant.....their are NO words to discribe those *ANIMALS* that did that to that poor poor beautiful little boy, HOW, WHY....can anyone on this planet do that      Seeing his little beautiful face....  

This can never ever be allowed to happen ever ever again!!!!!!!

Rest in peace baby P....


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## Lou G (Jun 1, 2005)

I am so outraged that this could happen to such an innocent little boy.  I have cried for that poor baby a lot this week - I cannot bear to think that he was being tortured in such a horrific way and nothing was done about it.  How can this happen in Britain?  My twins are of a similar age and the thought of his little body taking that abuse is just so appalling.  My heart breaks to think that he was only shown cruelty and neglect in his short life which should have been filled with love and kisses.

I hope his evil 'parents' get similar treatment in prison and that all those involved who did NOTHING to help this child are sacked.  They should hang their heads in shame.  

Rest in Peace beautiful boy, they cannot hurt you now x


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

I just cant bare it, I dont know why but I have tortured myself even more reading about those animals, The Mail's story sickened me the most. I have just done an enormous pile of ironing to try and distract myself. I think Im finding it so hard as Caspar is SO similar to Baby P, blonde blue eyed similar age etc etc.

Its just too horrendus for words.

Please can someone reassure me that the other children wont EVER come into contact with these people again. I mean they will be released one day and what if they ever did anything like this again.


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## ♥ Sarah ♥ (Jan 5, 2005)

Rest in peace Baby P    

xx


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Not sure where to start with this topic. I have not read any of the newspaper reports about this, but of course have heard some of it on the radio and TV. I am so sad and hurt that we live in such a "civilised" society and this can go on. I hate myself for thinking what I would do to those people who put that innocent angel through hell, and does that make me any better thinking those horrid thoughts?  

I work with teenage mums and quite closely with Social Services and have seen them at their worst. There seems to be a lot of red tape, paper work and not enough human contact/emotions involved with Social Workers, and I have had to fight many a battle with them as they (I can only speak from my experience with one particular boroughs department) seem to get it wrong 90% of the time. How can this happen again in the same borough, or ANYWHERE for that matter? Unfortunately we hear about the worst cases when a child dies, but child abuse is very much alive and in our society. Many of my teenage mums ahve been through the care system and often the cycle continues with their own children as social services have no innovative way to engage parents and their children; it is difficult for them to remove children as they have to prove a lot of wrong doing to their legal department/courts and I know we have had some mums who we have almost begged social services to get involved with because of risk of neglect etc , but it's all about paper work and various "legal Acts" blah blah. I am not minimising their work for a minute, and sometimes I feel they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but this is why we have social services and acts in the first place. 
I have waffled on as I can talk forever about our wrong system who gets it right a few times, and I am sure we are now going to have another "Green paper", "white paper" from the government as we had with Victoria Climbie; and look where that got us.

Rest in peace darling sweet innocent baby P


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

Im sure there are many wonderful, caring social workers out there and sadly it is the bad ones out there and the stupid systems and red tape that give the good ones who do there job well a bad name..I'm a nurse and I get so upset when 'dirty' nurses get blamed for MRSA amongst other things when most of us work so hard and arent to blame for stuff like that at all. i would hate any of our FF social workers to feel upset about all of this as know its not their fault  
Having said that, from the little dealings I have had with social workers so far, when we started the adopion process, it does appear to be that when a person who can offer a loving and safe enviroment to a baby/child who is potentially at risk...and lets face it most kids up for adoption would be as very few give up babies like years gone by just beacuse they were unmarried mums or whatever..the potential adopter has to jump through the most ridiculous hoops...YES, i understand they have to make absolutely sure that they are going to a good home but some of the questions and criteria you have to meet are downright ridiculous..eyebrows being raised that you read too much, or you dont have a 5 door car for example...I would have thought if they were that stringent about child welfare then they would be a bit quicker to act as in the case of Baby P....why the hell was he ever sent back there? 
It does sound as though this particular borough has real problems but that is totally inexcusable.
I wonder how much child abuse goes on in other parts of europe or the world for that matter?...for such a small country there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of child cruelty here which is deeply saddening..it's not a day that I am proud to be british that's for sure  

pobbyx


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## thumbelina (Sep 2, 2008)

Poor little soul ... RIP baby P, you are safe now with the angels  , what kind of person let alone family can do that to such a precious and gorgeous little boy. 

There is so much on the news about parents killing their children at the moment, it just doesn't make any sense to me. We can only hope that the children can get some kind of justice in the way of lifetime imprisonment to the people that do this to  them (even though it is nowhere near enough) for what they have been put through.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

I work closely with social workers and I don't envy them at all doing their job .. they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't .. they are understaffed .., it is an extremely stressful job, there are more social workers attacked and killed each year than police, they are poorly supported by the government.

They are extremely understaffed it is a nightmare for them to go on training etc, there is an awful lot of red tape, too much time has to be spent doing paperwork,  ..I know that they find this extremely frustrating ..no social worker would have wished for this to happen as most social workers go into the job because they care about people and want to make a difference .. there are always going to be the odd bad apples in any job but I have to say that most social workers I have worked with are genuine extremely hard working caring people many of whom will work way beyond the hours they should just to try and get the job done ... if we want to start pointing fingers then sometimes I think we need to look at the government .. as most authorities funds are effectively cut year after year after year .. as the demands on the local authorities increase, .. and the population increases, and yet the funds to pay for all this does not .. and with an ever increasing elderly population it is really a timebomb ..a very scary timebomb.. 

In my job I see parents desperate for respite care for their disabled children, elderly desperate to be able to move to a home that is local to them .. and all sorts of other situations that are unable to happen due to lack of money .. yet in the next breath we see MP's having £120 a head meals paid for on us .. they are able to claim goodness knows what expenses and yet give hardly any evidence to back them up .. they can 'employ' family without any evidence they are actually doing the job .. or that they are the best person for the job .. thereby wasting goodness knows how much money .. this is what I find immoral and until we start fighting against this and start fighting for more money to protect the vulnerable in our communities it will just get worse and worse.. it amazes me how we have recently been able to come up with all this money to bail out these banks .. yet we are unable to do the same for the vulnerable in our country.  

Another side that I see in my job is parents who are splitting up who use social services as a tool to hit each other with, they use the children as pawns and waste social services time throwing mud at each other instead of growing up and splitting up and being mature about the children's needs.. and putting the children first. We have cases where parents have complained because the other partner has got custody and social workers have to waste time responding to these complaints and partners have admitted to making up allegations of abuse against the other partner just so that they get custody of the children .. they have to allege abuse otherwise social services do not get involved .. so there are lots of reasons why the system is overworked .. there is a lot of beauracy (sp), and lots of paperwork .. but wouldn't it be a scary thing if it was too simple to take children away .. as there are also vulnerable adults out there who may have learning difficulties/disabilities/extra needs/ women with pnd .. do you take their children away because they don't offer quite the same /as good / parenting as an 'able bodied' / less needy person ... or do you give them the opportunity to change (with support) if someone lived with a violent partner and the partner abused the child as well as the woman/man would you give the parent the support and a chance to make changes and protect the child or would you whip that child straight into care and tell them that its too late, if someone had pnd and did something to the child would you do the same, it is not nearly as straight forward as we would believe from the outside .. and seeing inside social services is a real eye opener and although I would have considered becoming a social worker before I saw inside social services ..I certainly wouldn't now ! because it is a hugely difficult job.  A lot of changes have been made since the Victoria C case .. and because of lack of money authorities are constantly have to change their structures which makes things harder still .. 

I wish I could wave a magic wand and say this will be the last such case we will see ..but unfortunately it won't be .. because as good as social services are they cannot be everywhere and predict and get every judgement right, and because we are all human, social workers are no different and will make mistakes but I can say that I am sure that the social worker involved in this case must be completely horrified and traumatised by the fact this little boy has died, and I am sure she wishes that things had been different .. but they are only part of the decision making and they can only do their best, whilst this little boy was not saved she/he has probably saved countless other lives by their dedication to what is a thankless job. For that I am grateful. 
Cat x


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## kitten1 (Jan 1, 2007)

I am sitting here, welling up and feeling hot and sick. Against my better judgement, I have read about half of a report in one of the sunday papers about this poor child's life. I couldn't read any further. And all that is going round my head is how could anyone do this?? I can currently hear C muttering in his sleep over the monitor and it is making me feel worse. My baby is alive and well and loved more than I can bear. Why do people like this have children? Surely it is against any mother's instinct to let someone do this to a part of them? Or am I just really niave?? 

I had absolutely no intention of finding out anything about this case as I knew it would upset me. Maybe that's selfish. But, curiousity will often win. And now I am sitting here, in my living room, with my laptop and pictures of my baby around me and just crying for the love this child missed out on. The pleasure of being hugged so tight, you think you might suffocate. Being covering with kisses, not bruises. The fun of playing tag across the carpet with your dad. Eating chocolate, not having it smeared across your face to cover the marks of abuse! These are the things DH and I do with our son. Baby P should have been able to experience them too. 

Why oh why did this have to happen? What pleasure did these people gain from hurting an innocent child? Some of the causes of his injuries are just so sick it's mind-bending. Does this man feel 'big' and 'strong' now? Feared? Does he take pleasure in this knowledge? When I got to the part about Baby P banging his head against the bars of his cot, that was the limit of what I could take. How much pain must he have been in to want to distract himself from other pain by focussing on another pain? I would kill someone for even raising a hand to my son. And I would serve time for it. Gladly. What ever happened to his mother's maternal instinct?

There needs to be something done about the society we, I'm ashamed to say, live in. I would gladly go and help Haringey council if they are really that overstretched. Why don't beaurocrats learn from previous mistakes? Like every other profession has to and does? 

Things like this really make me wonder if I did the right thing bringing a child into this world. I love my son sooo much it hurts.


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## kizzymouse (Jan 13, 2006)

Its when I read of how he always smiled at everyone despite what he was going thru breaks my heart, all he wanted was love and he got tortured by those monsters its awful I hope they rot in prison and then hell bast**ds


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## Suzie (Jan 22, 2004)

I have not read the papers about this case as I work with children's services through fostering and know how hard most ( not 100%) of them work and they have so much red tape to go through in order to remove a child from their parent. 
Unfortunately social workers in this country seem to get trial by media! which is not acceptable as the papers/journalists do not know how the legal system for children's services works. I have had a child sent home ( back in care 2 weeks later) as they had no other choice, they had jumped through all hoops to get a care order but it just hadn't been granted. 

As people have said, these people probably covered up certain things when people visited them and gave the answers that they wanted/needed to hear. For all we know they may be been in the process of getting a court order to remove baby p but devastatingly it came too late  and I am sure the social workers involved are absolutely devastated and have to live with the memory of it for the rest of their lives.

Rest in peace baby P and lets hope it makes the government tackle the legal issues that childrens services face for these children who need help 

xx


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## strawbs (May 16, 2005)

I too have not read the details of the case of this tragic baby.  I work with babies and children at risk and also see the ridiclous systems that are in place for social workers.  There has to be someone to take account for what has happened in this tragic case and unfortunately I think it is another example of too many people involved but no one taking ultimate responsibility and making appropriate decisions.  This happens all too often but not always with consequences as tragic as these.  Something now HAS to be done and lessons learnt for all people at risk (I say this because there are huge failings within mental health services too), clearly the recommendations for the victoria climbie enquiry have not been adhered to or have not worked.

This is a true tragedy for this poor innocent baby.  I will not be reading any reports or watching interviews from grandparents or realtives as where were they when all this was going on??  Every single person who has been involved or knows this family MUST accept some responsibility for what has happened.

I really hope that these animals who have caused thsi unimaginable suffering to baby P willl never ever be allowed to come in to contact with children again.  If the reports are to be believd one of the perpertrators of the abuse was a convicted paedophile who SHOULD have been monitored also.

Lots of questions need to be raised and a huge shake up in procedures that are put into practice MUST be done.  Enquiry after enquiry is just no good.

Rest in peace precious baby, no one can hurt you now      

strawbs xx


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## weeza82 (Dec 14, 2007)

Beautiful wee Baby P, I 'm glad you are now in a place where you will be loved, treasured and free from pain and suffering. xxx


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## Imogen (Jul 18, 2003)

I have read some, but not all, of the reports about this poor poor child.
I don't have the stomach to read them all at the moment, but I will in time.
Even what I have read is pitiful and utterly sickening.

STRONG VIEWS follow:

I believe that the mother, partner and lodger should be executed.  I know this is an unpopular view and for most of my life I have been anti capital punishment.  However, some people are so 'broken' and damaged (and you would have to be very damaged to do this) that all they will ever do is damage and break others, usually the most vunerable.  Spending endless years and endless £££ to try to 'rehabilitate' them is, in my personal view, pointless.  They are like a rabid animal who needs destroyed.  Without repentance it is not possible to forgive and to 'move on' and rehabilitate.  The time and care and resources should be spent on the victims, not the perpetrators.  So, execute them.  
I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I really feel this way, and I would personally push the button too.

As for the 'professionals' involved - these are the people that we, as a society, charge with the protection of the most vunerable, a job that we cannot, or do not want to do.  Either the 'rules' were not followed properly (as in the case of the doctor who failed to examine the baby - in my understanding with a broken back and paralysed - as he was 'tired and cranky' -the baby or the doctor) in which case sack the 'professional' with no severance pay and no return to this position of trust.  The blame cannot be endlessly passed and passed and passed - if you are not accountable for the proper conduct of your job then don't accept your pay and don't accept your title and position in society. Simple as.

OR the 'rules' are not adequate and the 'professionals' do not have the tools they need to work with - so change the rules!!!   I know that those in this field will say that it is more complicated than that and I am sure it is but the system and its implementation needs to be sufficient to catch those vunerable people who desperately need it.  What can be more worth perservering with until it is right  

Until we value the life of a baby, child, young girl, old man, etc etc etc as much as a middle aged, high earning, respected 'member of society', these cases will occur again and again and again and we should, collectively as a society, be truely ashamed.
The measure of the strength of a society is how it treats its weakest members, and we are failing badly and no one seems to care enough to do anything about it.

Rest in peace, poor poor poor little baby P.  Your suffering is finally over.

Imogen.


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## Neeta (Jul 28, 2004)

I am just so so sad   and angry. 

Rest in Peace Baby P, no one can hurt you now sweetheart. 

Sleep tight Angel


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

I have to say I think a lot of you have written some amazing posts, I couldnt agree more.

One point I would like to pick up of is regarding the Mothers instincts. That is one of the issues that I have stuggled with and spoken to friends about. I mean the instinct to protect Caspar I have is just soo strong, I cant believe that this woman didnt have this. I swear that NO ONE Is ever going to hurt my child and if they did.... what mechanisim inside her stopped her from having this? 

We watched Panarama last night, well we both just sat there with tears silently rolling down our cheeks. Rich was so upset he had to go and stand in the kitchen and one point. That image at the end of the one toy clown and the couple of bunches of supermarket flowers left in the park where his ashes were sprinkled. That poor little soul, it is like no one cared about him. When I think of all the thousands of infertile couples who could have given him such a lovely safe home full of love. Its just to sickening.

All we can do is hope to god that things change now and Little P is never forgotton. I sooo hope there really is a heaven and he is safely playing where NO ONE can ever hurt him again.

RIP little sweetheart.


xx


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## Blu (Jul 28, 2005)

I posted this on the BBC forum the other day:

The death of Baby P is devastatingly sad and should never of happened and it is likely that he was let down by services, however whilst this needs to be investigated it must not be forgotten that the ultimate responsibility must lay with his carers and those who killed him.

Social Workers will again be blamed by press and public, but no one can make informed comments on what was done or not done until a full investigation is carried out.

What those laying blame should understand is that Social Workers work under increasingly difficult conditions.

- Social workers now spend approximately 80% of their time in the office completing forms (many introduced post-Climbie with good intentions but unfotunatley far too time-consuming) - it is impossible to assess the safety of a child via a computer.

- Government funding is conditional on the completion of these forms, not on ensuring the safety and welfare of children (you can't measure that on a graph!).

- Front line social workers nowadays have very little power in decision making - if they are concerned about a child they have to write reports, reports get passed to managers, managers take them to panels and panels make decisions. Panels are made up of senior managers who are constantly trying to juggle ever decreasing budgets and it becomes easy to depersonalise a case when you have never met the family.

- many experienced social workers feel unable to work with this constant level of risk and fear that the next Baby P will be from their caseload, so many child protection teams are staffed primarily by newly qualified staff who should be protected from complex child protection cases, not thrown in the deep end.

- As regards the Social Worker who blew the whistle - maybe she was right in her allegations, but maybe she was a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind - don't judge without the full story.

Sadly there will be many more like Baby P until the Government prioritises social care and significantly increases funding, resources and support to front line services.


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

RIP Baby P,  that you're safe in God's loving arms.

What gets me most is how anyone could harm their child. I'm a Christian and I was saying to a friend at church on Sunday why does our God who is a God of love and grace allow Baby P's mum to get pregnant a second time while abusing and then murdering her son and yet there's DH and I who are going through IVF (started d/r 9th November) which ahs 40% chance of working. It's not fair. Baby P's mum deserves to rot in hell. Not very Christian I know but it's the one thing I really struggle with.


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## fuzzier (Oct 31, 2005)

There has been a very similar case in New Zealand where a three year old girl was the tragic victim.

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/brothers-guilty-of-spin-dryer-baby/article/20081118132409990001

Very sad that these poor kiddie have suffered in such a way

/links


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## JaneNewcastle (Jun 17, 2005)

Now that the identity of his mother and her partner is in the public domain, it's out that Baby P was her third child, the fourth being born in prison while awaiting trial.  

I have no idea why the older children were not subject to the terrible abuse that poor Baby P was, but whatever the sickness was that brought this awful situation let's hope that none of the three are ever in a position to allow it again.


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

I think I have said my bit so wont say more except....Imogen...fantastic post hun...I agree with everything you have said!
pobby x


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## Blu (Jul 28, 2005)

Can I just ask how many of you who are calling for the heads of all professionals involved, have actually worked in Social Care??

How many of you have read the Serious Case Review?

How many of you have any more knowledge of this case than the selected information the media have chosen to share?

Yes, I am sure mistake were made, and yes I am sure there is some blame to be apportioned; however it is ill-informed public outcry that leads to short-term reactions from politicians to appease the voters, rather than a longer term sustainable approach to what is really wrong with the system - starting primarily with inadequate resources, insufficient and de-skilled staff and unmanageable workloads.

I'm sure many of you are not aware that Baby P had 3 older siblings, all living within the home, none of whom had ever come to the attention of Social Workers and about whom schools and health care staff had no concerns. The media chose not to report this.

You will also no doubt be unaware that Baby P's mother always co-operated with Social Workers and health care staff, attended appointments, contacted professionals for advice and engaged well with all agencies. Again, another detail the press chose not to report.

What she did hide was that she had a partner living in the property - however, no professionals, including Police, have the authority to search someone's home to check if a partner may be living there.

And what about the responsibility of the wider family and friends - it's easy for them to come out now and say they knew something was wrong - Social workers and other professionals are not psychic and if they aren't informed of concerns such as a new violent partner, how can they investigate them?

One last question - would you phone social services if you saw a parent mistreat there child in the street (we've all seen it, slaps and screamed abuse in supermarkets etc)? How do agencies know a child is at risk if the community around continue to turn a blind eye?

Please feel angry, feel sad, it is terrible that a little boy has lost his life in such a cruel way, but please also consider what damage you are doing in feeding the media frenzy with ill-informed opinions.

How about doing something positive and using that energy to support agencies trying to protect children - there are plenty of charities out there - put your money or your time where your mouth is.

Blu


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## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

I've stayed out this debate up until now, mostly because it upsets me too much to think about and, yes, I know that's a terrible bury-my-head-in-the-sand attitude but I simply can't cope with the idea anyone can call themself a human being and subject an innocent child to this sort of abuse.  
However, I do want to butt in now just to say Blu  I think what you are saying, in the face of what is likely to be unpopular opinion (because, face it, baying for blood is what we human's do best in these circumstances) is very sensible. 
I won't say mistakes have not been made all round but... all those people who have come forward and said they "knew" something was wrong - be they social workers, police officers or family or friends? If any single one of them had any idea how badly that child was being treated or that his life was in danger, then I would hope they would have taken whatever steps necessary to ensure his safety regardless of potential consequences to themselves. They didn't. This implies either they didn't know exactly how bad things were - which is possible if you've only got one or two peices of the jigsaw - or that they knew / suspected but chose not to act on this. And when I say act I mean in any way - that could have been either reporting it or bloody well removing the child themselves for all I care, regardless of personal consequences. Don't say people don't do that because they do all the time when a life is on the line; they just don't normally have time to think about it before they act.
Anyway nothing actually wrong with not wanting to do that because I think it's human nature for us to be cautious of interfering in case we are wrong but my DH said; much better to take a child into care while establishing facts and maybe innapropriately and perhaps cause some emotional trauma (that can be dealt with) than to forfeit a child's life because of uncertainty and red tape. Not sure if he's right about that but it's a fine line that is often difficult to read.

As for the question, would you say something to someone if you saw abuse happening? Well, no, if I saw someone slapping a child in the supermarket I probably wouldn't these days. I'd probably be too worried that they had a knife and were going to turn on me instead. Such is the state our society has come to. And I probably wouldn't tell anyone else either because, without a name what use would that be? If I knew it was going on though, and I knew the where and who... yes, I probably would report it but how far I would go to protect that child I couldn't say. I'd _like_ to think I'd do anything necessary (if that meant kidnap the child, take it to A&E and scream the place down until someone took me seriously....?  ) Reality though? That only ever happens in movies and I'd be too worried about myself and my own family and what would happen to me. Some point down the line you have to trust the bodies that have been set up to protect children on our behalf. In this case they badly failed Baby P and seeign someone from some higher up position apologising on TV for it made me want to reach out and throttle the guy... apologiy is a bit bloody meaningless at this stage mate!  However, I recognise that without the real facts as to how and why this failure occured, then it is unfair for me - and the public in general - to bay for whatever blood they can get, in deference to their frustration at not being able to bay for the blood of those evil scum who actually did this horrible thing in the first place.

And that's me down off me soapbox.

C~x


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## cassandra_2006 (Apr 24, 2007)

I've been following this thread from the beginning. To be honest, the discussions here contain the most info I have found out on the Baby P case, because every time I read something about this baby in the paper I feel sick to my stomach & simply can't continue reading. Perhaps because I've recently become a first time mum, and news like this is simply too much for me to bear at the moment, it's just incredibly heartbreaking.

However, I've felt surprised & shocked by some of the responses on this thread (even though they're human & understandable) & I have to say I agree completely with what Blu & Caz have said. I work in psychology myself, and I know the child protection system is one THE HARDEST jobs to be involved in. Loads of paperwork, loads of guilt & blame & responsibility, little time to make decisions, often a huge caseload. Of course, I do realize there IS responsibility for those involved, and hopefully there will be a fair procedure that will determine what happened, what went wrong, and how things like this can be avoided- if at all possible- in the future. I think though that social workers have a kind of impossible profession. People often blame them that they tend to separate children from families too easily (remember the 'dawn raids' outcry about alleged child abuse in the past, where social workers took children from their homes, only for it to be found later that no child abuse had occurred). At the time the outcry against social workers was HUGE. And now it's in the opposite direction, that they didn't act quickly & forcefully enough. The fact is, mistakes unfortunately will be made, some of them completely tragic & impossible to get our heads around, but still: mistakes. I'm not saying, I repeat, that these mistakes should be swept under the carpet. Rather, I'm saying that they should be seen as what they are,  mistakes that have to do with lack of resources, lack of adequate funding, loads of paperwork, and probably the particularities of this case which Blu pointed out. And obviously loads of other things that we simply don't know.

I think it's irresponsible & hypocritical of David Cameron & other politicians to bang their hands on the table & say 'never again!' and all that. At the same time, David Cameron is promising tax cuts. So where does he think resources for the social services (who are underpaid & understaffed as it is) are going to materialize from?

I also think- as Caz said- that all of us have a tiny bit of responsibility- not that we can do that much to change things- because our society has become such that we all mind our own business & can't really be bothered (or are too afraid to) get involved in problems with children in our community. I'm not saying I'm different, I would be very reluctant myself to report something I saw to social services, often out of fear, but also because of the natural reluctance in getting involved in other people's business that comes with living in a big city. So all this is part of the puzzle of why this happened.

As for those who say they would like to see the boy's mother executed, I do understand why this is said, in my heart I may sometimes feel the same. But I still remain very much against capital punishment, because if we resorted- as a society- to such measures, we're no better than those who killed little baby p.

Anyway. That's how I see things. My heart breaks for poor little baby P. Rest in peace little one.... I just wish wish wish things had been different for you!


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

I have already made my comment about this topic but wanted to touch on a couple of issues brought up. I agree that we live in a society where everyone turns a blind eye for fear of being hurt themselves etc etc...however, I truly believe that WE are ALL responsible for the welfare of children, ours or not. I am not nosy but will intervene if I feel something does not look right, and have even reported a neighbour who used to hit her 3 year old on a daily basis, she was suffering badly from depression, and did not have any services engaged with her or her two young kids. 
Yes, there may be times that we as society may be jumping to the wrong conclusion about reporting something that may or may not be abuse, but I'd rather be proved wrong than see a child hurt. Just like I tell my young clients, even though they are young parents , at the end of the day they can choose to listen to my professional advise or not, but their babies have no choice or voice so if I see any sign of neglect/abuse etc I WILL be making that decision to inform S/S or other agencies. 

It's true that we have not seen the full report and it's easy to judge, however, mistakes WERE made, and whoever took responsibility for those decisions have to be accountable for it. I know for a fact that it is  the Seniors (social services) decision to make a case for legal proceedings and there is often a legal planning meeting to decide if there is a case to be taken to court, so it seems a lot of important issues was missed...by someone!

The government DOES have a lot to answer for, Lord Lamings findings have only created more paperwork for Social workers and support workers like myself, and it often looks like agencies just want to do the paperwork to make it look good rather than actually carrying out the necessary job. As the undercover S/worker on Panorama said and as I mentioned before, too much paper work and not enough contact.

Again, we have to remember as we sit on our computers reading and typing , child abuse is going on around us   it does not stop with Baby P until we have a system in place that works .

You will never be forgotten Baby P


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## talie (Mar 13, 2008)

sorry ladies

i know its a truly horrific and a very hard thing to talk about but im sure so many of you feel the same way as me, i cry so much for this darling gorgeouse little boy after the short tourtured life at the hands of those     and just cant get him out of my head.
his mum is someone who should be infertlie not me (or all us on this site). little blue eyed boy if i was lucky enough to have you as my baby son your life would have been very different, you would have known a mothers love and a happy life.

to those who should have protected him may they baow their heads in sham and always see the face of this baby when their close eyes, i have no fath in this country anymore, and to those how did this shamfull crime hope you rot in hell, the mum has just had a baby girl let hope she go to a good home who will love and treat her like a child should be treated and has a happy life and she never sets her eyes on then evil worman again.

your a peace now little sweet pea, those   cant hurt you now   

dont mean to offend anyone sorry if this does.

love talie xx   xx

Just to let you all know...
March for Baby P on Saturday, December 13, 2008 
12:00pm - 3:00pm 
Location: Parliament, London.


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

Superb post Baby 2.

Thanks to everyone who replied to my original post. This thread was just for rememebering the little boy, please lets not turn this into a political argument like so many of the threads seem to be lately.

Lou xx


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## cassandra_2006 (Apr 24, 2007)

*Lulu*- well I don't think it's a problem to talk about 'politics', why shouldn't we, it's an interesting discussion... after all, the whole issue IS quite political, if you think that everyone (including politicians) is discussing this tragic death in terms of whether the social workers did their jobs, whether the doctors did their jobs etc. Also: in my opinion 'politics'- when it comes to child protection- involves all the issues we've been discussing on this thread, it's something that is directly relevant to the case of baby P. Also: our own involvement in the protection of children in our neighbourhoods, how much & how often we choose to get involved (or not) is also directly political.


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## saphy75 (Mar 15, 2004)

i still can't bring myself to read the details of baby P's tragic short life    i just keep looking at my ds and i can't even begin to understand how any of this could of happened    

RIP little angel  

pam xx


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

Sorry I have had/am having a very emotional week at home and I just wanted this thread to be one where we could just post nice thoughts to remember him by.

Im sorry if that is so terrible


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## saphy75 (Mar 15, 2004)

@ Lulu 

pam xx


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Lulu  ...this kind of tragedy always brings out lots of different emotions for different people.....obviously everyone gets angry at the situation/people/agencies and will want to say their piece on the subject. But you are right to think that maybe we could have somewhere different where everyone gets to send their loving thoughts/prayers for Baby P..rather than the people who failed him...I know there is a thread called never forgotten? I could be wrong, maybe doing a thread on there for this little Angel?


Lots of love to you for having an emotional week 

P xx


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Lulu:      to you. I've found the case of Baby P really hard as well. What upsets me the most is that there's couples able to have LO's no problem at all and then abuse them, yet there's thousands who would provide all LO's need to grow and develop having to go through tx.


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## Blu (Jul 28, 2005)

I'm sorry if I'm sounding negative - you all have the right to feel as you do, but please remember that 2 children die per week in England as a result of abuse or neglect by parents and carers. They also need remembering, but as their deaths may not be as gruesome or they don't live in Haringey, they won't get the media attention of Baby P.

Sadly this fact is likely to be forgotten in a few weeks when this case disappears from the headlines


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

what a lovely thing to do Diva.....it must have been a very moving experience. 
It really is a terrible state of affairs that so many children in this country are abused and killed. Im afraid that only re-enforces my opinion that the system needs a massive shake up..I have said before how difficult I know it must be to be a social worker...if it is anything like nursing you spend so much of your day doing paper work that the government has demanded we do. there is good reasons for some of it but so much of it is repetition.It totally takes you away from patient care which leaves unsafe situations. Nurses, social workers and the police did not go into their line of work to do endless paper work so i do feel sorry for them. however, sadly, on occasion, there are 'professionals' out there who are, clearly, incapable of doing their job correctly. If I gave a patient the wrong drug and they died I would expect a disciplinary hearing and potentially be struck off the register..if someone dies in police custody, the policeman/woman in charge is going to be investigated..so why are we so worried about hauling the social workers involved with baby P over the coals? of course the job is difficult and crap..yes, there is media hype...but they are not making up the fact that a baby was systematically tortured and killed and he was KNOWN to services. A doctor did not examine him properley the day before he died because he was being grumpy    its unacceptable and a whole cohort of people need to be fired.
thats all im going to say about it now.
love to you all..t is understandable we are all going to feel very emotional about it..so many of us have struggled desperatley to have babies and so many more continue to live that struggle...It is impossible to understand how anyone could do this to such a precious and beautiful child who would have had so much love if only he came to one of us    god bless you sweetheart
xxxxx


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

Diva that is such a lovely thing to do, Im so pleased you were able to visit. xx


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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

Pobby, I TOTALLY agree with your post, thats is exactly my feelings too.


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## druzy (Jan 25, 2006)

I feel the same as you Talie, I cry every day for this little boy and his terrible pain.  I can't believe the evil of the people that abused and murdered him and the tragedy of the failure to protect him.  I hope the gaol sentences are long, I can't understand why it is not murder and worse than murder.  I have seen the justice march on dec 15 ******** and would like to go will you let me know if you know more details of it.  Thank you Talie.  

All the best with your treatment.

much love
Druzy xx


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## Blu (Jul 28, 2005)

Pobby - I agree with you, and if a Social Worker or any other professional has made mistakes they need to be disciplined. The risk however is that the front line worker becomes scape-goated to avoid senior management issues being addressed, as many feel happened in the Climbie enquiry. The Police were the only agency that took responsibility right the way up to senior management, everyone else just addressed it at a front line and immediate management level; therefore appeasing the media and general publics need to 'see heads roll' but not addressing the bigger issues.

Blu


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## Suzie (Jan 22, 2004)

Blu - I agree with you, it will probably be the case responsible social worker who gets made the scape goat and not the managers that have told her which decisions to make, more often than not, not even knowing the details of the case! I am speaking from experience sadly and the whole system needs addressing 

Diva- what a lovely thing to do 

Lulu - masses and masses of  to you and your family 

Rest in peace little man and all the others little ones who we don't hear about 

xxx


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## talie (Mar 13, 2008)

hi druzy honey,
thankyou for your message, i know what you mean about the case, those vile sick people should get very stong sentences and be made an example off, we dont put up with crime like this to childen.
i cant help thinking did little peter talk, did he call this scum woman (ma ma) makes me so sad.
i thought the march was on the 13 of dec but you put the 15 of dec, are you right is it the 15th.
have a good weekend hun
love talie xx   xx


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## kizzymouse (Jan 13, 2006)

Diva that is so nice


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

absolutely lovely Diva sweetheart    thankyou xxx


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Lovely thing to do Diva. Sounds like you're doing great work in the teen centre. Love the success story, that lad will be able to give others inspiration to do what they can.

Have to say that the job of SS is a difficult one, there's a family in the town I live in and early 2006 their DD's age 11 and 9/10 (twins) were taken into care. Best way to put it is that the parents loved their DD's dearly but lacked parenting skills, discipline being one of the biggest problems, also the twins have moderate learning/behaviour difficulties. The parents got supervised access to their DD's 2/3 times week. SS worked with the parents to teach them parenting skills, December 2006 all 3 DD's were back home after a phased return, think that works by access being unsupervised or discreet supervision to begin with and it was built up to a couple weekends home before the final return. All 3 DD's are doing really well and the twins behaviour settled. I admire anyone who can be a social worker and I hope that if one good thing comes out of baby P that it'll be change in the system to make it easier for LO's who need to be removed from parents whether temporarily or permanently. Measures also need to be in place to try to avoid situations like the one in one of the magazines a couple weeks ago where the LO's had a condition which caused cold sores and they were removed cos of abuse being suspected, it was only because the mother was able to do research online and asked gp if they thought LO's could have condition and gp agreed that the LO's were returned home.


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Does anyone know of the correct time/date for the march for baby angel P??


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## Alisha (Jun 5, 2006)

just can't believe how hideously cruel people can be. Execution is too kind they need to suffer and they will.
I've wept daily for this little baby. Like many of you I can no longer listen to any details of the case, it's too heartbreaking.

RIP LO


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