# Lister Vs ARGC



## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

Has anybody out there had treatment at both the Lister and ARGC?  We're about to change clinics and can't decide between the two; currently at the London Fertility Clinic but 3 failed IUI's and 2 failed ICSI's later we're ready for a second opinion.  We fall into the unexplained infertility category.  My FSH isn't high but for some, unknown, reason I respond very poorly during stimming.  Immune problems are now being blamed ...

Any advice is appreciated.
Womble
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## Paranoid (Aug 5, 2004)

Hi Womble,

Sorry to hear about all you have been through.
I was at the LWC where we had 2 failed icsi attempts. We have male fertility problems. We then decided to go to the argc last year. I had 1 failed attempt there. At our follow up Mr T suggested that I have immune bloods. I have since discovered that I have high TNF a levels and boarderline NK activity. 
I have just finished a course of humira and fingers crossed about to start our 4th iccsi treatment in september.
I would highly recomend the argc, they may be more expensive then anywhere else but they certainly get the results.
Goodluck what ever you decide.


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## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

Thanks so much for your response, Paranoid (love the name).  How does Humira work then?  You take it before treatment to lower the TNF Alpha levels?  Do you have to take anything else during your treatment?

Womble
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## shupa (Jul 14, 2004)

Hi,

I had 3 cycles at the ARGC, 2 bfp's but miscarried soon after. Following their expensive tests, I was diagnosed with high TNF-a's. I moved to the Lister then and got a second opinion on the immune stuff with Dr Carter's tests. My immune problem seemed to no longer exist...! Who knows why that happened. Did I really have a problem at all After my first ET at the Lister, I got another bfp and this one stayed put! 

The main thing I noticed, was that ARGC seemed far less organised than the Lister. I felt more like a number rather than a name at the ARGC.

Wishing you all the luck going with choosing, I know it is not easy!

Jo x


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## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

Thanks Jo.  First of all, congratulations!!  Wishing you all the best for a happy and healthy pregnancy.  

I get the sense from some posts that the ARGC is a little chaotic but I'm impressed by the way in which they monitor their patients - changing not only dosages but drugs if required.  At the LFC you seem to plod on with a protocol even when you're not doing terribly well (I'm a poor responder and think I ought to be monitored more carefully).  What level of attention do you get at the Lister?

Womble
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## tj71 (Mar 7, 2005)

Hello Womble,
I cannot comment on the Lister, because I have only been to the ARGC - our first attempt, because they thought ours was purely male factor, I was not given any drugs at all post transfer and got a BFN - after the BFN, I was diagnosed with raised NK cells and when we had our FET, I was given dexamethasone, heparin, aspirin and also had an IVIG and got a BFP.  I believe this is the reason I got the BFP. They can be a bit chaotic but this is due to the volume of patients - it is organised chaos!! Once you are in a cycle, they monitor you SO closely and everything is finely tuned to the individual.  I couldn't praise them enough and think they are all lovely there and I actually almost miss going there! Also, as you can see from the HFEA document, they are number one by a long margin!

I wish you all the luck in the world x


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## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

... this is exactly the kind of thing I need to hear.  After our last BFN we began to despair about further treatment but I'm not ready to give up and DH is supportive to the last.  I just feel like I've lost confidence in my current clinic so it's time to move on.

Congratultions on your pregnancy.  Keep well.

Womble
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## tobyleroni (Mar 16, 2004)

Womble

I have been debating this question for quite some time.  I am with the Lister at the moment, and whilst completely happy with them, I am thinking about ARGC.  However, things to bear in mind:

1) ARGC do not seem to let girls cycle if their FSH is over 10.  Lister do not have this restriction - this probably accounts, at least in part, for the difference in the results between the 2 (ARGC have about 10% higher success than Lister)
2) ARGC do intensive monitoring and therefore I think you have more confidence that everything gets done at the optimal time (although Lister do work on saturday, and I have heard that they will do things on sunday if absolutely necessary)
3) I think Lister do more monitoring than many places, but not nearly as much as ARGC.  One of the downsides of the ARGC is that this monitoring can be stressful (once, and sometime twice daily visits to the clinic), plus I've heard that it then can take up to 40 minutes to pick up your perscription
4) ARGC do seem to be pioneers on the immune front - they do alot more testing than Lister (although Lister do NK cell and APLA - I'm not aware of the Dr Carter tests that shupa mentions)
5) Mr T oversees everything at ARGC (although you don't necessarily see him if you have an appointment).  if you read the ARGC thread, all the people there seem to have the utmost confidence in him, and he is clearly completely dedicated.  At Lister, there are more Drs, and it sounds less chaotic than ARGC.  I've seen Dr Parikh and Dr Thum at Lister and have been extremely happy with both of them

In the end, I booked an apt with ARGC and am seeing them mid-Sept, but as the waiting list was 12 weeks, I've decided to do another cycle with Lister while I wait.  If this doesn't work, I'll make a decision after I've seen the ARGC and based on the results immune tests that the ARGC do (although I very interested in Shupa's comments that she got different results from ARGC tests and the Dr Carter tests).

At the end of the day you just have to choose which one seems 'right' for you.

Good luck xxx


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## tj71 (Mar 7, 2005)

Toberoni - you can often get a cancellation for an appointment if you keep ringing - good luck with your cycle. Tiggy


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## tobyleroni (Mar 16, 2004)

thanks Tiggy.  I've called 3 times for a cancellation but no luck  

I've also heard that people have called for appointments and got them much quicker than the 12 weeks I've had to wait - I'm starting to feel paraoid that maybe I've been marked as a less than ideal customer 

ot maybe they prioritise first-timers / younger people

xxx Toby


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## fiona1 (Feb 2, 2005)

hi,

Just to add me bit. I have a poor history and may not be the client they would wish to choose in respect of upping their sucess rates. I sent an e-mail around late june / early july and have my 1st consultation on 27th Sept.

I am planning on haveing all my day 3 bloods done prior to that appointment to maybe speed things up.

Fiona


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## tobyleroni (Mar 16, 2004)

Thanks Bunless - good luck to you too.  I'll stop being so paraoid now!!

Fiona - I think your idea to get the bloods done ahead of the apt is excellent. I'll call ARGC today to see if they'll do them before the apt, and if not get them done by the Lister

(Womble - sorry I seem to have taken over your thread.....)


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## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

No problem, Tobyleroni.  Well my FSH is <10 and I definitely feel like I need to be monitored more closely.  I work really close to ARGC and my office is very supportive when I'm in treatment so ... I think I've made up my mind.  Better get registered or it will be Christmas before we get in.  TBH, the fact that the Lister doesn't 'operate' on Sundays has put me off a bit.  I'm a poor responder and my own clinic doesn't scan on Sundays.  That meant that for both of my short protocols, I ended up starting my stims on day 3, instead of day 2, and while the clinic says it doesn't matter I often wonder how that can be so ... 

Womble
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## Mummytoone (Mar 23, 2002)

The ARGC are fantastic, true true professionals and 100% dedicated, they don't care if it is 9am or 9pm, Monday or Sunday.

You cannot even compare them to The Lister, they are in a league of there own. The tx is 100% different.

I would def go to the ARGC but get ready for a very expensive, busy, busy time. You HAVE to be completely in there hands.

Good Luck

Love Lou xx xx


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## Womble (Sep 6, 2004)

Thanks Lou.  We're willing to spend whatever it costs - throw the kitchen sink in and all - as long as we get some answers.  A BFP would be good too ....
Womble
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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi Womble,

Thought I would add my tuppence worth. I too was classed as a poor responder. I was previously at Guys. 1st cycle I got 5 eggs although I did manage to go on and have a BFP and now have a beautiful daughter. Last August I cycled again at Guys, short protocol and got no eggs. They told me I was a very poor responder and my only option was donor eggs.

I moved to the ARGC and cycled with them in Feb/Mar. I got 13 eggs. I was absolutely blown away. Even though it didn't result in a BFP, for me that was a big success. I have to say I believe it was the close monitoring that helped for me. At Guys you start on a dosage of drugs and that's it. And if you don't fit in with the schedule of EC Mon and Wed and ET Wed and Fri it's just tough. The monitoring at the ARGC is amazing and my drugs were altered on a daily basis.

I am about to start stimming again on Monday and am keeping my fingers crossed this time round.

I wish you every success and good luck,

Holly


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## marly (Oct 17, 2004)

Hi Womble

I can't resist adding my bit. 
i was lucky enough to be advised to go to the ARGC before anywhere else and as a doctor myself I think they are fantastic. and as you can see they did it for me.
One comment on the FSH. Mr T will not let anyone cycle with a high FSH because the chances of a viable or full term pregnancy are absolutely tiny (less than 10%) and he does not believe in taking your money unless the chances are at least reasonable. Other clinics however will let you cycle but interestingly they never publish their success rates for this group of women.

Mr t will however test your FSH every month until it is lower and then you can cycle.

If you are going to put in the kind of financial and emotional commitment that IVF needs then I would say go with the most successful clinic first cos wherever you go a BFN is heartbreaking and theres less chance of it at the ARGC.

Jo - congratulations on your BFP - you have had a great experience at the lister (which is a very good clinic) but the number of girls failing elsewhere and succeeding at the ARGC is huge (just look at the ARGC girls thread)

whatever you decide i wish you all the luck in the world.

Love


Marly


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## shupa (Jul 14, 2004)

Toby, and anyone else who is curious...

Below are a couple of links to the Dr Carter threads that have been around for a while. They might answer some of the questions you have about the treatment he offers.

*http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18104.0.html

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28978.0.html*

I have not contributed to this one below, but am watching it with interest.

*http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34496.0.html*

My story is too long to waffle on about here, but I am happy to answer any questions about Dr Carter etc if you want to IM me...

Jo x


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