# being a woman



## ruby k (Jun 2, 2004)

Hi all
This might sound a bit odd but its been really on my mind recently, and I wondered if any of you wise ladies have had these thoughts...I've had an icsi and 3 diui's - all negative, and I am beginning to wonder how much further we will go down the tx road. I am still undecided,...we are having a break at the minute as my last baseline showed cysts. But like loads of women, I spent my childhood/teens/twenties (before IF came into it) assuming that I would be pregnant and have babies one day. Its only just dawning on me for real that it may not ever happen for me - and I may have to let go of a deep seated concept of what it means (to me) to be a woman. I know that millions of women live happy and fulfilled lives without ever giving birth - and i may turn out to be one of them..But at the moment I am struggling with the whole woman-hood thing. I mean i know I AM a woman - but how else can one express it? I feel like its an obvious point I am making and I'm not putting it very well...But I just wondered if anyone else has had this thought - and how do you/did you deal with it? I mean I love to look after my dh and I love doing traditionally 'female' stuff - but is that it? 

Sorry if its not very clear  

rubyk xx


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi ruby,

I'm sorry about all you've been through huni - and are still going through.  It's so difficult and I can totally appreciate what you are saying.

For me, I too don't feel like a proper "woman".  I feel like I've failed in some way. Not long ago, I got a bit drunk (oops) and I can remember staring at myself in the mirror, I had a slinky nightie on and I remember thinking my boobs are such a waste and why did God bother to give me boobs/a womb/ovaries etc but not make them work properly??  

It is very upsetting to feel like this and I wish I had answers for you hun .......

The way I cope, is when i feel like I'm having a bad day, I just go with it and have a cry.  But the main difference now is that I try not to dwell on it the next day.  I just try to accept that there will be bad days, have it and move on the following day.

for me too, it's not just about a baby.  Its about a future with a family - the holidays, the weekends, Christmas - and of course, all the other boring mundane stuff - and the bad times too.  

I really worry about this and I can really empathise with you.  Sometimes, it does just hit you that, "God, maybe I won't ever be able to do this ..." and I really don't know what the answer is for this I'm afraid.

i think i'm waffling a bit here but i just wanted to let you know that I feel the same and thank God for this site!  I'm glad you've come to us - I know it's been a lifeline for me.

Take care hun and I hope you make a decision and find peace soon
All my love
Gill xo


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Hi Ruth
Firstly welcome to the thread and sharing your inner feelings with us...like Gill i totally empathise with you and can understand what you have written. Yes it does make sense what you have posted and i am sure others will relate to this issue...
An interesting thought 'being a woman' and what it actually means. Like you and Gill, i have felt totally redundant and wondered why i was ever put on this earth in the first place, if i am unable to have children. My concept on being a woman was to become a mother...
I went on a workshop for infertility last year and the therapist brough in a chart on being a woman and the different aspects of what a woman is all about. When i saw it in black and white it took me back...It made me realise that being a woman we can nurture other areas in our lives and explore it.....the deep side of that is exploring and finding out about ourselves. Thats certainly hard when we are in turmoil ourselves and i think that comes with time...
When you say that there are lots of women that go onto to lead happy lives without giving birth..yep i agree with this, but i think iif you have made a choice not to have children its easier to live a fulfilled life. When the choice is taken away then its alot harder to deal with....although i think you can go onto enjoy your life but its a matter of time...
But hey Ruth we do find a path eventually and its not an easy one, but there are options to being a fulfilled woman but the answers are not always staring us in the face...the pain that you are experiencing is normal and alot of us do understand. Its just a difficult aspect of our lives that it is so hard to find away to get our head around it, but eventually there is some relief because you will find a path to discover what you are all about...
I hope i haven't banged on...
lots of love astridxx


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## lucysmith (Oct 12, 2004)

Hi Ruby,

It is normal to feel like - 'oh no, what do I do now I might not be a mum?' as I think we have all been programmed by society and our parents. As Astrid says there are other ways we can use our female skills - looking after people, helping our friends who are struggling with their kids, listening to people's problems and being thankful that we have extra time and energy for ourselves and others. 

Now, about being a woman. There are many fab things about it besides being a mum. Ok no 1 - clothes. Women's clothes are so much more fab than mens and not having kids means our bodies are going to be so much fitter! Another thing about not having kids is that it means we have loads of free time and money to do what we want to do - like go out and have fun with our other mates who don't have kids, and at least these days there are more people like us because women are more fussy and don't marry the boy next door (although I did, that's another story!!). 

My way of handling it all is getting stuck into my job and trying really hard, getting involved with local community issues to make the neighbourhood a bit nicer, using up all my annual leave on holidays abroad rather than waiting in for the gas man and making sure I go out lots. I admit this might sound like the beginnings of a manic episode, but it works for me. I also spend lots of time in my garden (very therapeutic watching things grow) and on doing DIY in the house. I have got past that 'why me?' phase, but it has taken a couple of years. So go easy on yourself.

Lucy


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## NixNoo (Aug 19, 2005)

Hi ladies - at last, I've found you.  I've been wondering where to post now!

I can so relate to you, I've felt exactly the same re womanhood, even to the extent where I've been through the 'why bother having s*x' cos what's the point (poor DH).  I've felt guilty for being so selfish as I've worried that I'll be on my own if anything happens to my DH, but that's no reason to have a baby.  I've wondered if I actually really ever wanted a baby or just wanted to be pg.  I too feel like I've failed in some way - but it's not our fault, we didn't ask to have problems.  For some strange reason I've always known in the back of my mind that it would never happen for us.

I think the way I cope is to try and think, we were not given the precious gift of having children because someone up there thinks we will be able to cope without them.  

I think I'm waffling now - sorry
Nix


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Hi Girls

Lucy i couldn't agree with you more about the free time and buying clothes....yep i love that part of being a woman...
Welcome Nix, i can totally understand when you stated about really ever wanting a baby or just to be pregnant...Those thoughts have been in my mind for such along time and its a hard one to swallow...but having said that i feel some sort of relief that i am thinking along those lines.This is good to question?
On the s*x front i feel sorry for my Dh as well...the joy has been taken out of it because of the IF...apparently this is quite normal and we are not the only ones to face this area....(Oh the good ole days before IF)...Maybe thats the part of me that i would love to discover again about being a highly sexed woman again....  
Lovely chatting to you.....
I hope you are ok Ruth?
love astridxx


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## NixNoo (Aug 19, 2005)

WOW Astrid - I honestly thought I was the only person in the world to think about the pregnant/having a baby thing.  I thought I was some kind of freak!    That's why this sight is just so brilliant.  

As for the clothes thing, I do agree, however, I've just been clothes shopping for my holiday and because I've put on weight (I'd lost 2 stone but life kinda 'took over' and I've put most of it back on again) it was awful, mind you I think I'm still stuck in the 80's so having trouble finding anything I like anyway - ho hum, I'll try and be good afterwards!

It is lovely chatting so thanks
Nix


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## ruby k (Jun 2, 2004)

Hi everyone
Thank you so much for your replies...it is really heartwarming to know that I am not alone in my worries about this. I know I am going to have to revise my pre-conceived ideas about womanhood and all that it entails..its all so hard isn't it? Redundant is exactly the word  astrid, and describes how i am feeling very well.
I think the looking after people and nuturing thing is really true - i will think more about this. Also the shopping !  

I don't know whats going to happen with me/us but you are right in that its a 'journey' - I just wish i knew where to...?

Thanks again everyone, its really interesting and helpful to get all your thoughts on this.
Love, ruby k xx


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

80's is good hun  - its soo back in!!

go girl!!

G x


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Hi Girls
Hello Ruth....i think you are so right when you say its good to share our views and feelings it helps to know that we are not alone..I think we all have individual journies but a mutual understanding of this difficult path in life. Ruth you know where we are and you are definately a 'Brave woman' to get this far...
Nix - i am so relieved also to know that there are others with the same thoughts and feelings about the pregnant/baby thing..I have questioned this for a few months now and as i said it has given me some relief, a feeling of knowing i can move slightly forward with my life...does that makes sense? it still hurts, but its becoming more bearable
I hope that you manage to get some clothes and as Gill said the '80s fashion is now in.....
lots of love astridxxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi Ruby (and everyone)

Ruby I think I remember you from the Male factor ICSI thread, or somewhere?    

I can REALLY relate to what you expressed in your first post, and I don't think you were stating the obvious at all. I think that the idea of women fulfilling themselves and fulfilling their place in society through motherhood is so deeply bound up in cultures all over the world, not just our own, that its easy to overlook it as an issue. Its only the last 100 years or so that it has been acceptable for women to go out to work as opposed staying at home and looking after the children. Its no wonder that we wonder who we are and what being a woman is about when we can't be mothers.

When i was a teenager I read an article in a magazine asking people at what point they felt they had reached proper maturity, and the one that stuck in my mind was someone saying that it was when they became a mother that they felt properly adult for the first time, and it was what they had been born for.      This stayed with me and as you cn imagine has really affected me now that I'm dealing with IF. It seems like other people are moving through significant rite of passage that I can't progress to....where does that leave me? How do i now make sense of where I belong in the world? I've never been a career-girl but it never bothered me because I 'knew' I would find fulfillment in motherhood. And now I am left wondering who I am, how do I make my life meaningful and not just a case of passing the time on this planet. When all my friends lives are giving meaning through motherhood , how do I search out what my life means?

I am doing an Art History degree, and next year I will be studying how women have been represented in Art throughout history to the present day. After we were told that we have reached the end of our tx road, I initially felt really freaked out at having to study this subject and considered switching  course, because through the majority of mainstream art women have always been symbols of fertility, creation, nuturing, and motherhood, and I am fearful at how I will deal emotionally with this perception of women...I was worried it will make me feel even more redundant and pointless.

BUT! I have since discovered that the couse focusses on images of women and power....royalty, emperessess etc. I have been thinking about it a lot and and I now firmly believe that I can use this course to explore alternative notions of women. Women in control, and women who have made significant contribution to their society in ways other than motherhood. Women as rounded PEOPLE not just a pair of ovaries and breasts!!!

Gosh haven't I waffled on an on! I hope I haven't bored the pants off you. hat I am trying to say is that how you are feeling is completely normal. but we need to all lean on each other, and remind oursleves how valuable and special we are in other ways, like Lucy. Especially if those ways involve celebrating our femininity.

This sounds like a very assertive and raving feminist post doesn't it but I'm not like that at all really.....yet!   

sorry for waffling on. 
E xxx


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## irisheyes (Feb 2, 2005)

Hi girls, that thing about "feeling an adult once becoming a mum" is true i think. I have been a stepmum for 10 years but i still feel very young and not a "true" adult. Sometimes i feel as if i am just muddling thru !

Ermey, i have just been told in school that i am to be given an art class next year(after my nightclass i did this year)- i normally teach languages so this will be a nice change. I mentionned to you b4 that i might do history of art too. The whole women in art thing sounds very interesting. You should really be understanding the whole Da Vinci Code and Mary Magdalene lark then?

Good luck all xxxx


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## ruby k (Jun 2, 2004)

Hi girls
Ermey, a lot of what you said made sense to me - i agree that women should not be just a pair of ovaries and breasts - totally - I am a big feminist and totally think that women should be equal and be able to do whatever they want professionally etc.... in my HEAD..but then in my heart I want to be pregnant and have a child, and bake cakes and sing lullabies and all that cliche stuff. Its so hard, as you say, in our society when there is so much choice and so many possibilities..however on the other hand, i wonder if that is really true? The media seem to be so mad on celebs having babies etc (i know its silly to buy into all that) - i (stupidly) read that interview with Geri Spice after she had given birth, and it was like she was the first bloody woman to ever go through it - and I think she said words to the effect of that it was the best exerience of her life and she now feels like a complete woman - or something like that - similar to the being a proper adult thing...Anyway, it made me realise that maybe things havent changed that much at all? I don't know. God I really am NOT a Geri fan, but it just seemed to illustrate the point quite illuminatingly (is that a word?) - ie thats what a lot of people think. And there seems to be a sort of generalised judgement against you if you don't have kids? is that paranoid? I really agree that its like you lose who you are and why you're here if you don't have kids...

Re the art stuff - its very true that the depiction of powerful women in art through history is very helpful. I am actually an artist myself, and I do get loads out of it - it does definitely fulfill some of the nuturing stuff, and certainly the creative fulfillment is great - I am lucky in that respect. Its funny because a lot of artists don't have children because it takes up so much time, and is like a child in itself sometimes..

God now I'VE waffled on! 
Irish Eyes  -are we ever truly adults?!  

Ruby x


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## MrsBuzby (Apr 10, 2006)

Hello

I'm so glad I read this thread.  I've posted in one or two of the other places on the site and found it so helpful but to read so many posts that I myself could've written is so comforting.

I've felt all these feelings too - do i really want a baby or just a bump?  Is it not happening for me because I'm asking that question?  Is it because me and dh shouldn't really be together?  Is it a punishment for something I've done in the past?  Is it because I eat too much pizza?  Is it because I drink one cup of coffee every 2 days?  What's the point of being here and female and not being able to give birth?  Why me?  Why us?  What will I do if dh leaves me for someone else and goes on to father children? Should I leave him to give him the chance to be a father?  What's the point of s*x?

See?  I have asked and continue to ask those questions all the time.  I hope very much that I will grow tired of questioning and being so heartbroken and that I will move on to find fulfilment elsewhere in my life.  I just also feel that it isn't something I can force and that it will happen gradually and naturally.

Some days it doesn't hurt much and other days I can't imagine how I'll go on if I don't have my own baby.  It's a hard journey and a heavy burden but it isn't one we can abandon just now I think.

This posting sounds so morose but to be honest with you I'm as comfortable, relaxed and happy now as I've been for an awful long time!  (Imagine me when I'm miserable!!!)  I just hope that reading these posts will help other people like it's helped me.  Just the thought of not being alone is a comfort!

Moom
xx


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## NixNoo (Aug 19, 2005)

Moom - each time someone posts saying similar things, I get comfort from it - not cos I'm morbid but because I feel it's not just me!  I've said exactly the same things as you (over and over in my head) and I realise now, it's not something to be ashamed of but it's not exactly an easy discussion to have with just 'anyone' is it.

I wish I could find the poem I wrote a few years ago but I either threw it out or hid it somewhere as it was too painful to read.  

Someone mentioned about if IVF never existed it would be easier, I too wish sometimes that it didn't as the constant dangling carrot is a killer, at least if everything was black and white we could get on with life.

My consultant telling me I could no longer go on with my own eggs was almost a relief to me as DH and I had already discussed this wouldn't be an option for us so it was cut off for us at last, like someone had made the decision to stop for us and that's what I needed.  Although it's still hard to come to terms with, at least it's a decision.

OK - must go now, got to pack for hols, off for 2 weeks tomorrow.

Take care ladies
Nix


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## Bratt (Sep 21, 2005)

Wow....

Reading all these has made me think....

I remember when I used to get angry at the thought of being a 'baby factory'

I remember when i really never wanted to have kids, it just 'wasn't me'........

I remember looking at women with 2 or 3 kids and thinking 'imagine being tied down with all them?!"....

I am not sure if the pain of my IF is realising that I CAN'T have my own children not that I don't WANT them? 

Is the fight for a baby me shouting YOU WON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO  at my body when it clearly IS telling me?.....

Thank you all for reminding me that I am still here, I am a woman in my own right, so what if I haven't got any kids? I can have a lie in til lunch time, I can buy a 2 seater sports car, I can still wear a bikini on my holidays, I can go on holidays!!! I can go clubbing til 3 in the morning, roll in roaring drunk and not worry about it....

Thank you ladies for remining me i am ME


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Irish  -great to hear about the art course you're teaching next year, was the course you did designed to teach you how to teach art, or was it more doing art? I recommend art history to anyone interested in art, its a lovely subject to study (and if I can say that while in the middle of exams it must be good!!) 

Ruby - understand about art taking up so much time. I did art A-level many moons ago, but haven't done any for years and years cos never found the time, and now I am horribly out of practice.

Hope everyone else's exams are going well.  

I agree about the fact that tx exists is a mixed blessing. Obviously its a godsend if it works for you, but many a time I've felt that it is treatment which is stopping us from being able to move on, it keeps you in limbo, unable to grieve properly, but not providing answers either. I also think it raises expectations and hopes, and it can be very hard to accept that Science doesn't always solve everything. I've often wondered why IVF has worked for some of my F.Friends but not for me, I feel like I didn't try hard enough, maybe I wasn't positive enough, or maybe I didn't want my baby as much as them. All rubbish of course, sometimes Nature goes one way, and sometimes the other, and I just happened to be the other.

love to all.
x


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## irisheyes (Feb 2, 2005)

I did an oils and watercolours course ermey but ended up really liking acrylics!!!  dont think my teacher was really into acrylics tho! There was no formal qualification so the class i am taking next year will only be a junior one (probably 11 year olds) so i am looking forward to it. 

i do caligraphy for weddings as well and celtic embroidery too.Just for friends or pleasure tho. Doing the celtic embroidery with my 14 year old class now since they have finished their course.

I always wanted to open a craft shop actually but i am not very up on the business side of things.Mind you having your own business is a lot of work. think i would prefer to scale down rather than up!

Good luck for the rest of the exams!! xxx


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## ruby k (Jun 2, 2004)

hi
just wanted to resurrect this one briefly as I read something the other day in 'childfree and loving it', which really made me think. I know lots of you have read this book already, so you will know this...but I was very interested to read that Florence Nightingale never had any children - she saw her patients as her 'children' - possibly one of the most caring and nuturing women in history never had kids...I just thought that was worthing adding to this thread. It made me think a lot. Sorry if this is old news to some of you!!!

rubyx xxxx


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi Ruby,

Not at all ..... although this book is FAB, it is easy to forget certain parts of it as time goes by.  I too, thought this was very interesting!  It just shows you doesn't it?  Certainly makes you think.

I have a funny story to tell you about "nurturing" in other ways.  I was tidying up earlier and I saw a bee struggling ... it was on its last legs.  I put it out on the window sill and put a soaking wet cotton bud next to it in the hope it would drink some water and re-hydrate. I sat by the window for at least 1/2 hour willing it to live.  Its wee legs started to move and I thought, "hey, I;ve saved a bee"!!  Anyway, it wasn't doing much so I came downstairs to get one of my lily stalks thinking it might eat the pollen??!!!  Anyway, put that back out for it too, but alas, I think my efforts have been to no avail!  It's now dying!  ............. Anyway, it felt good to be nurturing in a way  - it's not all about parenting is it?

I hope Child Free and Loving it helps you as much as it did me.

Enjoy the rest of it,
Love Gill xo


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