# We should not feel guilty about wanting another child



## coucou2009

This is more a of a vent posting but maybe an opening to start a conversation.... I have noticed (and I sort of fell into this category) that I have one child (conceived with ease) and now pregnant with my second after an ivf treatment (but had lots of iuis and clomid cycles). Why do people with infertility or even secondary infertility have to feel guilty, rationalize (saying I should be thankful for one child) or defend out choices to go through assisted reproduction to have the size of family that we want? No one knocks people have  the amount of children they want done the natural way. I think if a family wants another child regardless of how they had their first should not have to defend themselves. 
I found myself through this whole situation thinking if it does not work at least I have my little girl. Yes I am thankful that I have her and going through this fertility journey magnified it but just because I have a diagnosis of secondary infertility does not mean I should have to settle. 
It seems that it is always the haves that tell the have nots it is ok be happy with what you have. You know what, why should we?
Was wondering if anyone else going through secondary infertility feels that same way.

Thanks for letting me rant


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## staceysm

Hi,

We had a rant about this a while ago and I agree totally.  I understand that lots of woman go through failed treatments and I can understand why they would feel like that.  

I have a friend who has 3 children and when she mentioned trying for her third I never questioned why or why wasn't she grateful for what she had?

We should be able to expand our families when and how we want to.

X


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## bridge2jones

I completely agree with you! Congratulations on getting your longed-for 2nd child.

i've been TTC no 2 for almost 4.5 years now and we are on our 5th IVF cycle in 2 years, this one in Spain. I love my family and friends and know they love me but I am really thoroughly fed up now of them saying 'surely now you've had enough, be grateful for what you've got, stop hurting yourselves anymore, who is to say that you'll have another child who will get on with your son,,,....blah etc blah etc blah!!!! Interestingly, these are usually people who don't have children through choice, or have at least 2 or 3 that they had very easily - so easy to judge isn't it?! 

I've been working with the Infertility Network as a volunteer lately and have been put in touch with their media contacts as i'm very passionate about talking about secondary infertilty - but interestingly, everytime the journalists think they have a publication for my story, the feedback comes back that the subject is 'too controversial'!!!! Its almost as if its our fault and we are just greedy women who should have tried sooner - it drives me nuts.

Anyway, rant over from me - for now! Nice to know I'm not the only one feeling like this xx


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## bambibaby12

coucou2009 said:


> It seems that it is always the haves that tell the have nots it is ok be happy with what you have. You know what, why should we?


Completely agree, I was told once that it's clearly evolution that some people can't have children and why should science mess with that. If animals can't reproduce they die off.... 
Needless to say, that person HAD children 

Don't ever feel guilty for wanting only one child or 50.
The only time when someone needs to justify the number of kids they have is when they can't afford to support them themselves...

I shall certainly be going for number 2... And if DH isn't listening now, even number 3  I would love a big family


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## coucou2009

I agree with you one hundred percent. I guess my point is that just because we have fertility issues that should not stop us from wanting the size of family that we want. 


bambibaby12 said:


> coucou2009 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that it is always the haves that tell the have nots it is ok be happy with what you have. You know what, why should we?
> 
> 
> 
> Completely agree, I was told once that it's clearly evolution that some people can't have children and why should science mess with that. If animals can't reproduce they die off....
> Needless to say, that person HAD children
> 
> Don't ever feel guilty for wanting only one child or 50.
> The only time when someone needs to justify the number of kids they have is when they can't afford to support them themselves...
> 
> I shall certainly be going for number 2... And if DH isn't listening now, even number 3  I would love a big family
Click to expand...


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## tinkerbell24

Hi ive just come across your post and agree 100% i have a 6 year old child and ive had some nasty comments. As i now need ivf ive had people saying "be greatful" and on 1 occassion i was explaining to someone i have to pay for ivf as i have a child and i overheard some nasty lady say "so she should have to pay she should be greatful nhs should make it hard for people to have children the popularity is to much" and i will say i dont know how i bit my tongue i was so angry to the poinnt i came home in tears saying ive had enough people are classing me as been selfish, i was questioning am i selfish? I completley understand there are ladies whove tried for years with no children and i feel so sorry for them but it doesnt make it any easier for us just because we have a child. If we have the love and time for another child what eles matters. I will admit i do get annoyed with ladies who dont care for there kids and still continue to conceive but why should we be violated? I come from a big family who all look after their children they have all the love and work hard to support them, it makes me so angry people cant see how we feel x


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## coucou2009

tinkerbell, that is just awful. I think people who have no fertility problems can be insensitive. Sometimes I wish these people would walk a cycle in our shoes and see how fragile and emotional the situation can be


tinkerbell24 said:


> Hi ive just come across your post and agree 100% i have a 6 year old child and ive had some nasty comments. As i now need ivf ive had people saying "be greatful" and on 1 occassion i was explaining to someone i have to pay for ivf as i have a child and i overheard some nasty lady say "so she should have to pay she should be greatful nhs should make it hard for people to have children the popularity is to much" and i will say i dont know how i bit my tongue i was so angry to the poinnt i came home in tears saying ive had enough people are classing me as been selfish, i was questioning am i selfish? I completley understand there are ladies whove tried for years with no children and i feel so sorry for them but it doesnt make it any easier for us just because we have a child. If we have the love and time for another child what eles matters. I will admit i do get annoyed with ladies who dont care for there kids and still continue to conceive but why should we be violated? I come from a big family who all look after their children they have all the love and work hard to support them, it makes me so angry people cant see how we feel x


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## Sunshine pickles

Hi, I've just found your post and this section of the forum which will be very helpful to me as I have a son conceived naturally and have just been diagnosed with unexplained infertility and I am about to start the IVF process. 

People really don't seem very sympathetic when you already have a child, and I do feel guilty discussing it even on forums like this as I feel that other women may not feel that I have as much right to be on here. 

Saying that, I introduced myself earlier in the newbies section and I have had views but not one single response, so maybe I'm right. In which case, that's really sad


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## bambibaby12

Sunshine pickles, sorry nobody has responded to your other post. I know I'm sometimes guilty of reading and running but I would hope that it isn't because of your circumstances. There are lots of ladies on here with secondary infertility and from what I've seen everybody gets treated the same.

Wishing u lots of luck xxx


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## bridge2jones

Hi sunshine

Don't go up on here, you just have to be selective with the sections you post on - I skipped the newbie intro as I wanted to go straight to the donor and international sections - and although I too have a son, everyone has been brilliant on here - in fact, had it not have been for the ladies on here, I would still be dithering about getting nowhere when actually, I'm flying to Madrid on Saturday for our cycle!!! 

There is a thread just for secondary infertility, try that one, I'm sure you'll get heaps of help, support and friendly ears there 

Xxxx


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## coucou2009

As a side note, this is on the secondary infertility board. In some ways there is a divide between the primary and secondary people when in fact a lot of times the causes are the same. The only difference is that we were lucky the first time


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## bridge2jones

Apologies - was just trying to help and hadn't noticed this was posted in secondary board.


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## Cranky Angie

Would love to join you. In the same boat too  

Ange xx


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## tinkerbell24

Hi again ladies i posted on here the other day about horrible comments we can recieve from ununderstandable people well i just wanted some advice on this one. Yesterday me and my partner went to his mums with my son and she told us her youngest sons gf as gone in labour (she also has another child from another relationship) and she said to my partner "you could be an uncle at the weekend"anyway i smiled and said thats good and she said to my partner "whats up with you" and my partner said "we dont really see them so im not overlly exited" and then she said "well at the end of the day this baby is a blood relative" i thought to myself what does she mean by that i felt like she was pushing my son out because hes not blood though my partner has bought him up from a baby. I dont really know what to make of it and ive not spoken to my partner about it cause i dont want to cause trouble ots like since the gf has been pregnant shes forgot what weve been through and expects us to drop everything. And i now feel im been blamed that i cant give her a grandchild. Im happy shes exited shell be a real nana but dont know what to make of what she said. My partner is close to his mum so i dont want to come between that i dont know whether to talk to my partner or take it on the chin as a silly comment, any adice ladies x


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## Sunshine pickles

Thank you ladies, that's really reassuring to hear. Will definitely post in the relevant sections and sorry for hijacking your post! Think I was a little emotional about it all yesterday  

Thank you both again xx


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## Leah77

Hi there,
I am with you on this point. I am not sure how I would be officially labelled as I had to have IVF to conceive our one little girl (now 23 months) having had both my fallopian tubes removed after two consecutive ectopics in 2008. However, I feel I am very much able to relate to this post as I now feel I am in that lonely place of having to suffer in silence. In fact, I have been here since the moment we conceived our wee miracle baby. It's a bittersweet combo of joy and guilt all at once. I find it hard to find forums where I can fit in because the ones about primary infertility don't tackle the emotional difficulties I'm having to deal with. So, just hoping I can join in on this thread....
I've actually just started my own blog site called Infertility:Marriage, Motherhood & Me (http://infertilitymmm.blogspot.co.uk/) So far I have only forwarded it to close friends and family, but am really keen to try and get it out there amongst fellow infertility sufferers who truly understand. Have a read if you like and feel free to post a comment and/or pass it on to anyone you think might benefit from reading it.
xx

/links


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## treaclebum

Its so nice to see some other people who are treated the same as me - the only person who has said to me that its ok to want another child is my midwife. None of my friends get it, they say hes so lovely just be grateful. Forget about another child and enjoy the one you have.
My son means the world to me, he is the reason I get up in the morning and my whole life revolves around him and I think thats alot of pressure for him to bear, I get soooo worried about how his life will turn out as an 'only' and that he will not share any of his life experiences with a sibling as I have. 
It breaks my heart to think of how he will cope alone in later life when we are decrepid or arent around (as older parents) and the stuff he puts up with (raging hormone cycles, endless 'sorry mummy cant do that because'... and trips with me to the doctor) I dont want him to remember his childhood like that. Dont even get me started on what would happen to me if he got seriously ill or injured in an accident. Im not in anyway saying another baby would replace him or would be a back up - again its him Im trying to help.
Im am grateful, everyday good or bad, I have been given the most precious gift, Im not greedy or selfish for wanting another one the same. Im just the same as them, but without the extra children. 
S


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## dillydolly

I wonder if it's usually people who have more than one child, all conceived naturally that tell us to be happy with what we have!

No one would really choose to be an only child so that's probably one of the many reasons we put ourselves through this

I don't think I'm selfish far from it, it's so hard juggling spending time with DS and working to save up to pay for IVF and then feeling bad for going to work as maybe I should be spending that time with DS!


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## coucou2009

DillyDolly,
I find that it is the people that have more than one child and conceived without any issues that say be happy with what you have. Of course wanting another child is a personal decision and just because we have trouble conceiving number two doesnt make us any less worthy. I was lucky that my fertility doctor or his assistant never made any judgement. If this is what you want, we will help you make it happen is what they said. I think this whole experience has changed me to the core and made me look at fertility in a whole new light. I am more sensitive to people because we just dont know what others have to go through

But yes to reiterate, it is the people that have kids easily that look at us and say be happy with what you have


dillydolly said:


> I wonder if it's usually people who have more than one child, all conceived naturally that tell us to be happy with what we have!
> 
> No one would really choose to be an only child so that's probably one of the many reasons we put ourselves through this
> 
> I don't think I'm selfish far from it, it's so hard juggling spending time with DS and working to save up to pay for IVF and then feeling bad for going to work as maybe I should be spending that time with DS!


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## Blueberries

Hi everyone

Can I just pop on and join in the discussion from a totally different perspective?  I've read your posts with extreme interest (and tears!).  I, myself have conceived very easily twice and am now on the road to hopefully carrying for a lovely set of IP's.  I think there are some very narrow minded and self absorbed people in this world and unfortunately, we are always going to meet them.  I am the exact opposite in that I feel guilty for being able to conceive so readily and taking it for granted.  My children magnify how precious life is and how amazing it is to be able to have them, which is what started me on the surrogacy journey.  It wasn't until I started talking to people who needed me that it made me realise how hard life can be when you want something so badly but you can't just have it.  

I suggest every time you speak to someone narrow minded and plain rude, you should send them a link to fertility friends so they can read some of the remarkable stories on here.

Keep praying and trying ladies, fingers crossed for you all x


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## SAMs mummy

I am so happy to have found this & to find other people feel the same as me. I have a 6 year old that I conceived with naturally very quickly. I joke that all I had to do was sniff DH sperm & I was pregnant. This time is another story 3 years down the line & no success what's so ever. I am getting sick of people telling me "just relax & it will happen" oh & "you should feel grateful for having a child when so many women can't" It's usually people with multiple children who tell me this. 
I am so grateful to have my boy but I just cannot flick that switch of longing off. We decided not to go down the route of ivf after I was diagnosed with unexplained infertility & was told insenstivitly from a friend that I musnt be that desperate. I am currently using a CBFM is anyone else using this. So sorry for such a long post.


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## coucou2009

I guess we are in the same boat. I used the clear blue easy fertility monitor for over a year and nothing. This was after my gyn did a uterine biopsy and told me to relax and if I am ovulating to just keep trying. Well we got frustrated as we conceived our first easily. So that is when we went to the fertility speceliast to get further testing. We got the secondary infertility diagnosis. The good news was that I had proven fertility. We decided to pursue treatments and after a year of four rounds of clomids, 6 iui`s and one ivf, I am pregnant with my second. I am ecstatic but I found this whole experience so jarring. 
It is of course a personal choice whether to pursue treatments or not. I think people who have children easily don`t understand what infertility is. As one person said rightly so, it doesnt matter if you want one two or three children, it is your choice how large you want your family your family to be. It is alsmost as if because we are infertile we should just accept what we can get.

I wish you luck and am here to talk



SAMs mummy said:


> I am so happy to have found this & to find other people feel the same as me. I have a 6 year old that I conceived with naturally very quickly. I joke that all I had to do was sniff DH sperm & I was pregnant. This time is another story 3 years down the line & no success what's so ever. I am getting sick of people telling me "just relax & it will happen" oh & "you should feel grateful for having a child when so many women can't" It's usually people with multiple children who tell me this.
> I am so grateful to have my boy but I just cannot flick that switch of longing off. We decided not to go down the route of ivf after I was diagnosed with unexplained infertility & was told insenstivitly from a friend that I musnt be that desperate. I am currently using a CBFM is anyone else using this. So sorry for such a long post.


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## SAMs mummy

Thank you for the kind words & big congratulations on your pregnancy. I spoke to consultant at LRI about going on chlomid but he refused   I have been using CBFM for 3 months now think its taken me this long to get used to it. We were only doing deed on peak day & after reading more into it should have been doing it on high days   I am currently 37 years of age & if no luck I will look into treatment. I keep thinking we managed to get one baby so surely we will get another one.   
When are you due?


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## coucou2009

I am the same age as you. When I went to see the specialist, he told me that I came at the perfect time for treatment. I say this from experience that if the monitor does not give you the results in the couple of months please see a specialist; I say this because I felt I waited too long but I had a dying mother, a big move etc. I think the monitor is good to help you keep track but if there is something up it wont help. I hope it works out for you. I found the machine a bit confusing in the beginning because it takes awhile for it to know you. I also had days of brown discharge before my period so I felt that threw things off a bit
I am due in May so I have a ways to go


SAMs mummy said:


> Thank you for the kind words & big congratulations on your pregnancy. I spoke to consultant at LRI about going on chlomid but he refused  I have been using CBFM for 3 months now think its taken me this long to get used to it. We were only doing deed on peak day & after reading more into it should have been doing it on high days  I am currently 37 years of age & if no luck I will look into treatment. I keep thinking we managed to get one baby so surely we will get another one.
> When are you due?


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## SAMs mummy

I have had all my diagnotitic testing done in April to June 2012. Was finally diagnosed at hospital in April with unexplained infertility. The consultant said there is nothing else they can do as medically nothing wrong. Gave me a leaflet for the fertility clinic next door & told me how much everything would cost me & if I want to call them. Feel like I am rather stuck   I was only slightly o/weight so went on a diet in summer & lost 14lbs hoping that would make a difference. Am putting a lot of hope in fertility monitor. Am considering iui next year if no success.


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## coucou2009

Well whatever you  decide, good luck. Just a word of advice, if there is nothing wrong with you or your partner, I would just try one or two iui`s and then if you want and and can go straight to IVF. The thing with the monitor is that it can tell you the fertile dates but if you are not getting pregnant after awhile, the machine is not going to help. Atleast with IVF, they can see in the dish if there is something wrong with your eggs, something wrong with the sperm not meeting the egg etc. With IUI they just inseminate you so the egg still needs to travel up the tube.
Good luck. It is a frustrating process especially when we wdre able to do it once without any help


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## SAMs mummy

Thank you very much for the advice,really appreciate it.


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## Kika

Hi I know this post is old but I'm just cracking up here.  We've been trying for our 2nd for 6 years & I'm literally loosing it.  My husband seems to be fine, he doesn't really want another child for financial reasons, but I'm suffering from the grief of not having the family I want.  What makes it worse is that it's my dh who has low sperm count but everyone assumes its my problem, even him.  I'm sick of hearing that it only takes one!!!!  His family are very wealthy but have never offered to help us out in terms o treatment or anything.  I'm just getting really resentful.  

I thinks it's harder when you know what you're missing,  sorry for rant I'm just struggling just now to cope.


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## Givinguphope

Hi,
I'm in your exact same situation! My h and I have been trying for our 2nd child for 4 years now. I did have endometriosis which I had a laparoscopy for to get rid of. I've also been told that I have a low AMH and he has a low count. We have been told that our highest possible way of having a 2nd is by ICSI Which I'm sure you know is at a cost! My H doesn't seem as bothered as I am but says he wants another, but he can't justify paying the cost at the small chance of it working! 
I feel your pain and lack of hope. X


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## Cranky Angie

Don't give up guys it took me 8 years but I am now 21 weeks pg with number 2. My DH was the same plus he had 2 kids from his first marriage so he really wasn't bothered and actually made my whole IVF journey even tougher with the lack of support, emotional, practical and financial and being so anti it all the time. Then about 2 years ago I just realised if I was going to be half hearted about it I'd never have another child as time was seriously running out so I just totally stood up to him, insisted that I'd I didn't have another child I would regret it my whole like and then just went for it hell for leather. And now I am pg!! In the end he still didn't really  help but he didn't stand in my way and I just learnt to cope with all the new emotional and practical stuff (flights, appointments, injections etc) alone, for us it was better that way as he just wasn't able to provide me with that support. Now he is delighted we have another LO on the way and says he has nothing but admiration for me for sticking with it. I so wanted it to be our journey together, but in the end it was me who really wanted it so it was a journey I mainly made alone. DH and I weren't really very close for a while, but we have come through the other end so I think it will work out ok, and my DS is delighted he has a little brother on the way which is what I always wanted. 
Good luck with your journeys. 
Ange xxx


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## coweyes

I think plain and simple people just don't understand infertility.  The general public don't see it as a huge negative on someones life, i think its because they don't consider it as loosing anything, but more the fact you can't have something you want.  (if that makes sense?)


I'm in slightly the opposite situation, I needed pgd as i am a carrier of a genetic condition my dh and i also have fertility issues.  After 6 years we finally had a healthy baby girl through icis pgd.  When she was about 7 months old i found out i was pregnant naturally, and that i was 12 and a half weeks gone   .  After a cvs test to ensure the baby is healthy i was told i was expecting a baby boy.  I get a lot of comments about this, eg now you've relaxed etc etc, people just like to comment.


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## melloumaw

hi ladies hope i can jump in here.
i have 3 girls conceived easily and 2 whilst on contraception(3 lost on contraception) and 1 planned.
i also have 3 grown step sons and 5 step grandchildren,
but i long for a child with my DH,we have had so many negative comments including from family. i know i am totally blessed with  my lot, but the yearning for a biological child with the man i love is overwhelming.
i just wanted to send hugs to you all and wish you all the best in achieving your dreams
mel x


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## wiki

I remember when we first went to the IVF fertility clinic. I saw other people in the waiting room and always silently wondered what their story was. Most of them were there and hoping for a first child. I felt guilty because we had our lovely little girl. I remember so clearly, watching them and knowing that IVF has a 30% success rate, _that some of them would leave the place after some months/years empty handed and broken hearted. _I grew up with the idea (from media), that IVF was there to create babies when our bodies fail. I never grew up with the idea that IVF doesn't work most of the time, only sometimes. And that it takes the average person 3 treatments to have success - but even then, only roughly 30% will succeed.

So there I was, with a child who was easily conceived with no problems when I was 29. And after all the tests and things we were classed as unexplained. Even the consultant thought we were an easy case. Initially he dismissed us, told me to come back in 3-6 months, by which he was sure we would be pregnant. Of course it didn't happen.
Well, two years later and a failed IUI and 4 IVF ICSI cycles (2 of those were FET's, so frozen eggs from a previous batch) and 4 miscarriages later (one of those was from a natural pregnancy in 2012).

Even though it was incredibly hard - especially the recurrent miscarriages after gruelling fertility treatments - I find myself back at the place where we started, when I looked at the people in the waiting room. _And I am just so shocked that WE (the "easy" case patients), will be leaving the clinic soon, having spent several thousand £££££ and have absolutely nothing to show for it. Except for many many tears._ I am waiting for my last miscarriage tests on the foetus, and then we will have our final follow-up consultation of the last IVF. I am in no hurry to have this follow-up, because I just don't want this chapter to be over. When I visualise us walking out of the consultant's room, down the long corridor with double glass doors, around the corner and down the lift to the ground floor for the final time, then I just cannot stop crying. _To accept that it was one big catastrophic disastrous failure, is beyond me. I so wanted this to work. _I am beginning to realise, that accepting it is over and moving on, is much harder than any of the unsuccessful ivf's or miscarriages. And those were HELL!!!

(I haven't lost hope, but just cannot afford any more treatments, and it is just not justifiable, especially given how bad our embryos were by day 5 on this last IVF cycle. All 12 of them were brilliant by day 3 but hopeless by day 5)

Earlier this week I met a friend whom I haven't seen in a long time. Both our daughters are now 4 and she was expecting her second child in just 6 days. She had a huge bump. We sat down and talked for a long time, she mostly talked about her pregnancy and the baby coming very soon. When she asked me if I didn't want another baby, I told her calmly that we couldn't have any more children. *This is the first time I have said it out loud to someone in such a direct way*. At first she was apologetic, said she didn't know and that she was sorry. But then she quickly went on to explain that it doesn't matter because I have my daughter! As this was the first time I said something like this to someone out loud, I wasn't very prepared in responding. But now, if I could answer again, then I would say that secondary infertility is not any less painful than primary infertility. The trauma is the same. It is the same hospital visits, operations, invasive procedures and treatments. It is the same shock, grief and disappointment every time you get bad news. It is very difficult.

It makes me sad to see how alone my daughter is sometimes. I try to arrange play dates as often as I can but most of the time we have to be her friend and play with her. Even jump with her on the trampoline because she doesn't go out to the garden much on her own. She often sings and talks to herself when playing on her own.

(sorry for the rant!!!)


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## Cranky Angie

Wiki ... Your post reads so like my own story, except it has taken us 8 years of dealing with secondary infertility. I suppose I am lucky   Cos the money didn't run out .... Although it nearly did and I have had to take big chunks of time out to save more. I dread to think how much this baby has cost.  
I also had to compromise by using DE. In the end another baby and a sibling for DS seemed more important than the OE thing. I know that will throw up its own issues but for now I believe I made the right decision. And I got to the point where I knew it was a DE baby or no baby. 
It's been tough to keep going for so long. It did nearly wreck my marriage but I just couldn't give up. Whenever I felt like giving up I felt like my heart was breaking. And that was worse than the BFNs and even worse than the miscarriage although that was devastating in itself. 
My parents (my mum especially) have not been supportive. They are angry with me for continuing to put myself, my husband, DS, them (?) through all this. They believe IVF to be dangerous, intrusive and a waste of money. I have had to fight so many people to get this baby. I live on a small remote island and arranging flights, appointments, treatments, drugs, has been horrendous but I have got there. This site has helped me a lot. 
It's so difficult that people don't understand the pain of secondary infertility. In some ways it's even harder cos you know what you are missing. And to hear that from a pregnant woman is doubly hard. We know we are so lucky to have our first children, it doesn't stop us from having more love to give to more children, wanting to make our family grow and wanting our only children to have siblings. I have yearned for these things too. I even know that once I have this baby I will still yearn for another, but if I were to voice that wish I would probably be cut off from all friends and family for ever! 
I'm so sorry your treatments haven't worked. I was 46 when mine finally did, and there is an 8 year age gap between this one and DS. I thought that was too much and I have since found out quite a few other mums with that age gap with children conceived naturally so I dont feel so bad. It's not like I haven't been trying for a sibling since my DS was born!!  So what I am saying is, maybe you can come back to more treatments when you have had some time out, or saved some more money, or considered DE. My last cycle was at Serum in Greece, I cannot recommend them highly enough, if you are interested I can give you more info, or check on here. 

I read your post with such total empathy as I have been sat exactly where you are too. One of my good friends had had fertility problems all her life, terrible period and ovulation problems, low body weight, her twins were conceived in her twenties with clomid, and then her husband was a heavy drinker, a smoker, had taken drugs, there is also no shortage of funds available to them, she conceived on her second fresh IVF cycle. Me super healthy, cycles as regular as clockwork, normal BMI, super healthy, fit and fertile DH ..... Nothing for years and years and years.  It's hard, we got told we were an easy case too. In the end I think it was my immunes that were the problem,and these get worse as you get older. But of course we didn't find this out until very recently. 

Anyway, good luck on your journey in life with whatever you decide, just wanted you to know I was thinking of you. 

Ange xxxi


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## hdn1975

I have just been reading all your stories today, for hope and support. I found out yesterday that our 5th attempt IVF has failed, and I am devastated. I have a son from a previous relationship who is now 11 and is amazing but I always wanted more children, wasa single mum for many years until meeting my wonderful husband, I knew from the off due to my husband's past medical history we would never be able to conceive naturally but thought stupidly that because I fell pregnant so easily with my son, IVF would be simple straight forward and we would have a baby together, never did I think years down the line, that we would have so many attempts and spend so much money, and still not have the baby I have longed for since my son was about 6 months old. When my son found out yesterday that it didn't work, he hugged me so tight and said you still have me Mummy, it made me sadder, like he didn't think he is enough for me. Should I just be grateful that I have a child, when many women on this forum have no children at all and may never have. A friend of mine sister had to have a hysterectomy the other week at 37, she had no children and would have loved to have had them, surely I should feel blessed? So why can I not stop crying, and why can't I just be thankful for what I have , instead I feel empty and alone . This is the hardest thing I have ever been through, and I have been through some tough times in my life, and need to stop now and focus. And like one of you other lovely ladies said when someone asks me why I didn't have anymore children I need to be honest and say we can't have children. Ladies don't feel guilty for wanting more than one child, I know we are blessed to have one but if you long for another and that is your dream no one should tell us to just be thankful for what we have got and not to perdue our dreams. I wish you all luck in this long and hard journey, I need to reevaluate my life and take another route xxx


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## askingtheangels

Hello ladies, I've been following this board and after reading the latest replies, I had to get in touch. I'm in the same boat as many of you....we are blessed with a wonderful 5 year old son conceived on 6th round of Clomid and have been trying for 4 years for a sibling. Along the way I've had 10 m/c at various stages, all before 10 weeks (I had 3 D&Cs which revealed 3 different trisomies) and we tried IVF twice but no success. After each episode I've picked myself up relatively quickly and pressed on, making a new plan and have kept faith that this will happen for us - I mean, I can fall pregnant pretty easily, it's just a matter of finding that golden egg?! 

Throughout this journey I've felt every emotion possible as you all have no doubt.... naive belief and hope (at the start), utter grief, pain, jealousy. As some of you have said, my heart aches for my DS being on his own right now. Myself and my husband come from sets of 3 siblings and I just want something similar for my own child and my own family. Sometimes, I feel one of the worst facets of all this is having to put on a brave face to those around us when in reality I want to shout from a mountaintop at the unfairness of it all. We, hopefully, all have people we can talk to a bit about it but how can they truly understand when they haven't walked in our shoes.

When I was younger I dreamed of having 4 children and now I'm having to make my peace with being extremely lucky if we are blessed with just one more. I agree that it's normally people with more than one child who tell you to stop and just be grateful for what you have. It drives me mad. I think we, who are suffering secondary infertility, know just how damn lucky we are to have conceived a successful pregnancy more palpably than those have created their families with ease. I too have been slapped with phrases such as 'well, at least you have one" which is tantamount to saying you can't indulge yourself any further or yearn to expand your family. It's so dismissive. Plus the 'relax and it'll happen'. Grrrrr! As if we haven't tried every single possible avenue! Not drinking and taking every vitamin known to man, go on holiday, take up an interest to distract you... through to enjoying a drink again (for sanity purposes!), switching off from it all and taking time out from trying to conceive, stopping the vits, see what happens...through to aggressive pursuance of IVF and trailing around different doctors offices. We've all tried everything.

Whilst I've kept mostly sane throughout the last 4 years, it's all starting to catch up with me and recently I'm finding it harder and harder with each period that arrives - and with hearing of new pregnancies all around me. That's particularly hard, seeing how easy it apparently is for everyone else - even celebrities on the Daily Mail for crying out loud! I've realised recently that perhaps this journey has taken it's toll and we need to find a new way to complete our family. We can't go on living in this continuous cycle of hope and despair. So we are seriously considering donor eggs and plan to head to Serum in the autumn if my DH's sperm improvement protocol doesn't erm actually improve anything. As CrankyAngie said, the OE side of things is fast being superseded by just wanting another child. For us, although we are blessed in so many ways, our family isn't complete and we have to look at a new way to achieve that. I guess that's what prompted me to write today, hearing hdn1975 say that you needed to take another route. Thank heavens for science and generous donors and for the opportunity to create our families in other ways. For me, carrying and giving birth to another child is also important and I know that I will influence that baby from the moment they are in my womb. (Epigentics is very interesting by the way, have a look into it). It's taken me a year to get to this point, and a lot of wonderful support on here to get my head around DE but I'm finally just looking forward to being a mum again. Sorry if this post has gone slightly off tangent, but I was so touched by all the posts here and felt less alone in all of this.

Infertility is very isolating, but please remember that there are others out there who are going through similar experiences with the same desire to expand their families and none of us should feel guilty for that. I wish you all the very best in your decisions and journeys. xxx


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## wiki

Dear ladies,
It was so nice to read your stories. Not that they are nice stories, but perhaps because we can relate so much to each other and actually UNDERSTAND these complex emotions and difficult journeys. And I don't feel so alone like you all said. It is such a lonely journey otherwise. I just found a good article today describing the grief of infertility: _"I have known grief before: I have lost dear family members, and I have experienced gut-hollowing relationship-breakdowns. Those losses have been terrible events, points of excruciating pain which must be endured and assimilated over time. But unless something goes wrong in that process, that grief can progress: it is, in many ways, clear and uncomplicated. But this grief, this other grief, has no event and no end. This grief has me crying strange unpredictable tears that seem almost physiological. This is the pain of infertility." _ http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/06/i-know-the-pain-of-infertility-and-talking-about-it-helps

@Cranky Angie. I appreciate your reply so much. You have no idea. I read it a while ago but just putting the words on paper/screen now. I can't imagine how long and difficult 8 years must have been. I've had 4 years of this and it has destroyed me. Many congratulations on your much longed for pregnancy. The baby will be loved so much! I agree the strain on marriage is immense. We have mentioned divorce but have since sorted things out. Still, DH doesn't understand the emotional strain I am under. Often I will just break down and cry out of nowhere and then he would ask "What is the matter??" 
Sorry to hear that your family was so unsupportive. I have left the family out of it, is too complicated and difficult. I think what other people don't understand, is that it isn't a short journey that needs support. If someone wants to know what is going on and therefor offer support also, they should know it is a long process of months and years and that they should be in it for the long hall! Well, one funny thing happened. In our first IVF cycle, I shared only very few feelings with my mother (we are expats, so both of our families live in another country). And my mum is such an extrovert and perhaps didn't realise that it's a sensitive issue. She then went on (bless her) to discuss my IVF with my mother in law over dinner, and then even went on to tell her that her son (DH) has low sperm count etc.!!!   - Which was not true at all but it seems to be the only thing uneducated people think about infertility. Needless to say, mother in law was very upset that she was left out, didn't know a thing and had to hear about her son's sperm from my mum!!! We had to calm everybody down and from then on decided it would be much better and uncomplicated if no family knew. And I am so glad we did! To think of all the treatments and 3 miscarriages that followed after that. I can't imagine how it would have been if we had to deal with the family's emotions after each disaster, as well as dealing with our own inability to cope with the trauma!

And I can't agree with you more, that giving up (voluntarily or not) or walking away from treatment after many many losses and failures, is MUCH MUCH harder than any miscarriage or disastrous IVF treatments.          

I still don't know what we are going to do next. We have our final follow-up this coming Friday and I don't know if I could handle it. What if I completely break down as I reach the lifts? Will the nurses drag me off to the mental ward? It has been 6 weeks since the last mc and I still struggle to sleep. 
The main thing I want to know, is why we had 12 fertilised embryos. All of them were graded the highest grade by day 3 and they were all 6-8 cells. Brilliant. Yet, by day 5, all of them were behind in development!! 10 were at day 4 of development and 2 were classed as early blastocysts, too slow/behind to get any grade even! And the following day, on day 6, the remaining 10 still didn't grow beyond day 4, they were still compacted and cellular. So, basically, 12 brilliant embryos that fell off the cliff after day 4. All of them!! I got a BFP but the HCG level was low and miscarriage at around 5.5 weeks when the HCG level was just above 1000. After reading lots, I learned that the egg drives the embryo development for the first 3 days but the paternal genomes kick in after day 3, which usually then points to sperm problems if development slows down after day 3. So we did a sperm DNA fragmentation test and I was sure it was going to come back as high. But it didn't! It came back at 9% which is great. So, DH is off the hook!  Now I've been reading lots about egg quality and things that affect poor embryo quality. The problem is, I am 34, my Antral follicle count is 20 and my AMH is 33. But I do not have PCOS. So, I have lots of eggs and easily overstimulate! My consultant has on both fresh cycles, started me off on 150 Gonal-F and then from there quickly reduced it gradually until it was as low as 50 or 25! Almost nothing. So, I want to know why our embryo quality was so bad. But I struggle to understand that it could be the eggs. Why would the AMH be so healthy if I had bad eggs?? The one thing I have found, was that some doctors say that the stimulation of the follicles (if not age) is the most important factor contributing to poor embryo quality. And in this case, perhaps the consultant begins to "coast" too early in fear of hyper stimulation. 
http://haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/eggembryo-quality-critical_12
http://blog.drmalpani.com/2011/06/why-were-my-embryos-of-such-poor.html
Need to find out more. I want answers! We have spent too much.

@hdn1975. I am so very sorry that your treatment failed. Huge huge hugs to you. It doesn't make sense. It is so unfair. I think the rational side of us question why we struggle so much with coping. The other day I thought to myself, The Taliban have just chopped off fingers of people who voted, many women in war are raped every single day, many women are trapped, drugged and raped in human trafficking every day, school girls in Nigeria are kidnapped and sold as wives to terrorists, etc. Surely these people have a lot more trauma in their lives. They have real reasons to cry and become depressed; why on earth can't I just put my life in perspective and shift my focus and move on Surely that would make sense. No. We still go through a process of grief and it doesn't seem like something one can skip. It involves certain motions and steps that we just go through, no matter how hard we try to rationalise it. And sometimes our minds will just revisit or dwell on certain parts again and again.  _"The experience of infertility is not easily expressed as a single thing, no few words encapsulate the way it interferes with almost every aspect of our lives and relationships: home, marriage, sex, food, future, friends, family, parents, in-laws. A person can't just say one word, as they can with illness or bereavement, and have the scale of it be understood."_ 
Yet, I don't really talk about it to anyone. I've only said it out loud, that we can't have any more children, once to someone. And that was only because I felt "safe", the person wasn't connected with my usual contacts. Maybe we should say it more and it will help facilitate the process of accepting and possibly one day move on?? Unimaginable! But then on the other hand, I really do not want to give up and I don't want to accept it!!!!!

@shoegal100. So sorry to hear about your difficult journey! Ten mc is too much.   
So nice to read your story. Wanted to wish you lots of luck with your journey ahead and treatment at Serum. That sounds like a great plan.

Buckets of strength to everyone. xxx

/links


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## lilyisabel

Just wanted to reply to Wiki - my situation sounds very similar to yours, not PCOS but very low doses of stimulation drugs needed to get lots of eggs. Embryos brilliant till Day 3 then dropped off a cliff.

On my 5th cycle I had a perfect embryo transferred at Day 3, the rest were looking pretty fine too. Day 5 I get a call the rest had gone downhill and weren't even at blast stage, they put the best of a sorry bunch back in, day 6 non suitable to freeze. My non ID twins are 1 this month.

I had daily/ twice daily bloods during stimulation and my medication tweaked specifically for me, I also had immune treatment. I think they got my body in the best possible state, then the embryologists & ICSI did the best they could.

I don't know if this helps in your search for answers just your story rang a few bells for me.


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