# Not ashamed of being needy again!



## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi dear friends.

Something really empowering about this board is that it feels really OK to come with my troubles.

Recently enough I have acted on good advice about how to deal with family insensitivity  - seems to be working!

Now I am wondering how to deal with going to the wedding of 2 old friends of my own age 
group (late 40s/early 50's) who have been happily unmarried together for ages. They represented to me the fact that marriage is not essential to happiness or commitment. Now they are finally
marrying I am reminded of my desire to be married. I want to celebrate their happy event, and I will. But it brings up all sorts of feelings for me.

It is important to say that the woman involved had 2 daughters and the older one of these dear children died at age 12,just as she got together with the man. She has been such  a strong woman to deal with this, and so an inspitration to me. I hope I was of some help to her in the worst moments of her bereavement. Her younger daughter is now in her 20's and quite ready to celebrate her mum getting married to the man who was there for both of them in their grief.

So, I am not being stupidly jealous of a fairy tale romance. But I am envious of my friend's marriage. 

Any comments?

Love

Jq xxx


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi lovely

I think its a normal reaction and feelings given the situation you find yourself in with your dear heart hon. I don't really think there is much any of us can do to cancel out envy, its one of them emotions that happens with or without logic and can cause us so much pain, isn't it? Simply facing up to the fact we are feeling the way we are helps a little way towards acceptance of our own life soup. I can see your friend hasn't had it easy, what a terrible thing for her to have gone through losing a child at 12. You have been through a lot of heartache too though as is often the case with those of us that have lost babies there is no tangible evidence.

Maybe look at where this envy has come from? Is it a desire to be wed yourself as you have touched upon in previous messages? Could this be about security and not necessarily the 'wedding package'? For what its worth I was the one who didn't want to get married to my DH but crumbled in the end after turning him down many, many times. I still feel to this day that a piece of paper was not a requirement as proof for our feelings towards one another. Being wed didn't stop us splitting up many years ago either!

Sending you my love, and wondering what the hell you're doing up at silly o'clock again? 

You take care sweetie 

Emcee xxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Hi my luvly, 

I've got an urge to respond without having what it is I feel in response to your post clearly formed in my head, but it goes something like this.... I am a married person myself - in fact, on my second, which says something about my belief in commitment of this kind - but, is the desire to be married at least in part based on a need to conform, not unlike the influence of 'pronatalism' on us, i.e. 'its what everyone else is doing, so I want it too?' I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, as I've not examined my own beliefs in marriage as closely as someone who has questioned it's necessity, such as you. I do know that the origins of marriage are not remotely romantic, more contractual and in some ways incredibly misogynistic, so perhaps the liberated soul in you has up until now shunned it away for reasons such as this. The 20th century overlaid romance on top of the marriage contract, mainly via hollywood, but let's remember that not even bollywood tries to undermine the notion of arranged marriage (not a romantic whim in any sense) too hard.

I'm not going in any particular direction with this, but I do know that the 21st century should be, if it is about anything, making you own mind up having absorbed all points of view, and ultimately carving out your own interpretation of what it means to be alive and living in a loving relationship. Rather like those living successfully without children, we simply don't have enough alternative models of 'commitment without marriage' given to us in our media driven society, and maybe this is the crux of the issue.....

No idea if that was helpful or not, but was interesting to stop and think about for a few moments....!

You'll suss it out, 

Love, 

MM xxxx


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## Myownangel (Aug 24, 2005)

Dear jq,
I have not known you long, but already feel that you are quite a strong and independent woman who doesn't feel the need to 'conform'. Yet you say you feel envious. Sometimes I think the heart knows us better than our rational minds. What I'm trying to say is that maybe you need a little reassurance - even though it may go against what you believe in theory. Personally I don't think a piece of paper makes much difference – although I must sound like a hypocrite because I am actually married. Why did I marry? I think it was as a symbol of commitment because we did it in front of all our friends. It was like saying 'I choose you and let everyone know it!' And I'm an old romantic at heart... Of course, being married won't keep you together, but it is a lovely gesture. Perhaps that's it - it's kind of hopeful. (Although look at the likes of Darren Day - he's just got married again...yawn. I think he does for a living! A professional groom.) I hope you can talk things through with your dp - and come to somewhere where you are both content.
Bernie xxx


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## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Hi Jq,

Just some thoughts/ questions for you. Maybe they will help you to be clear about your situation and needs.

what is it about marriage that makes you want to be married? 
what would being married give you that you don't already have? 
what would marriage take away that you hold dear? 
how do you feel when you think of being married?
how do you feel when you think about never being married?

I know I haven't got any words of wisdom, but I just wanted you to know that I care.

Love

Vicki
x


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Dear Jq

Not sure I can be much help on this one but wanted to send big hugs to you.

I wonder if the feelings stirred up in you are something to do with a desire to be reassured that you have unconditional love and commitment, a kind of reciprocal love which is also there between parent and child. Maybe the need to be married is partly due to the need to fill the hole left by childlessness and the missing relationship of 'unconditional love'. 

In reality of course we can have that relationship with our partners without the marriage ceremony,but perhaps your friends marriage is stirring up old feelings that you thought you had tackled a long time ago, a feeling that you want/think you ought to belong to what society decrees a 'normal' pattern of life... marriage, children, grandchildren etc etc. 

You say they represented to you that its ok to not be married and still possible to have that unconditional love, maybe now that they, of all people, are getting married its making you examine your feelings about it all over again...maybe you feel left behind.

Perhaps its about 'belonging'. One of the hardest things about IF is the feeling that you are on the outside of everybody else's society...like parenthood is a club that everyone belongs to except you. My lovely, single sister recently told me she feels this way about her married friends...that they belong to a club, a lifestyle, that is unattainable to her, and she feels very much on the outside because she is single. 

Or perhaps, hun, its just a very normal desire to be reassured that you are loved.

Am probably being no help at all, but sending you love and support.
xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello again,

Thanks so much for your replies. I wasn't asking a specific question, so did not expect specific answers!

Ermey was right that it is about this wedding announcement stirring up old feelings. I am secure in feeling loved by DH (H for Heart!) Having reunited after the split I instigated, I have no questions there.

Vikki's questions were brilliant in helping me to look at my feelings which focus on having a shared celebration of our commitment.The problem is that DH does not really enjoy public celebrations - he hates parties, crowds, dressing up, ...... We have discussed this so often there is no point trying again I am afraid, Bernie - total incompatability there! I would also feel better about accessing his pension if he dies before me as my own pension is rubbish. In a way I would like to marry even more now that we are not having children as I want to say something about our commitment not depending on the stereotype of marrige and 2.4 kids. I think that is why our friend's marriage is making me think again as they are obviously not marring for anything to do with children. (However I need to talk to the woman about this as she is a commited Christian and I wonder if that is her agenda and P has finally recognised how important this is to her?) 

As MM and Emcee have touched on, I am not really the type to bow to convention. When I was young I did not imagine getting married - I was one of those 70's feminists you know! So it was fine by me to end up with a bloke who was totally anti marrriage. But as I got older I began to want this celebration thing and during the IVF years really felt the need to have something positive to do together, but no energy to do that - plus how do you fit a wedding in to all those Tx cycles? 

Thanks again for all your replies

Jq xxx


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