# Donor egg abroad



## Frances34

Hi girls

I hope you can give me some advice.  I have suffered 2 ivf failures with my own eggs and on both occasions the quality was poor.  Following tests it was found that I have a chromosome problem which may explain why the embryos have failed to implant.  I also had the natural killer cell blood test done and this came back showing my levels were unacceptably high.

With these two factors in mind, my husband and I are now looking to do a donor egg programme abroad (probably Spain), but I would really welcome any advice you have on hospitals and Countries that we should consider.  I have been told by my doctor in England that I must be treated for my NKC count and I would love to hear from anybody who has also had this problem and managed to do a donor cycle abroad, as I know some hospitals both in this Country and abroad don't really agree that it is an issue.  Also I live just outside London and will need to have scans etc, can anyone recommend a Clinic that would work alongside a clinic abroad.

Sorry for so many questions, I am so excited about treatment abroad as I've heard so many encouraging stories, but am desperate to hear about whether they acknowledge and treat people for the NKCells.

Thanks for your help & good luck to everybody, may all our dreams come true.

Frances


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## Danni

Hi
Its a good thing you had been tested for NKC because you might have the best quality embies transferred but can still m/c.
I had DE in Spain and is mum now to a lovely 6month old girl, this was my 3rd try of DE-the first two ended both in m/cs and the 3rd resulted in my daughter after immunetreatment of ivig , aspirin and clexane. I had ivig before and after transfer and it resulted in a live birth for the first time!I have high fsh and poor quality embryos of my own so decided on DE after 4 failed ivfs in the UK and was on a waitinglist from hell(4year) In Spain I waited one month for a donor each time, young donors and no eggsharing.The immunetreatment I did with the ARGC, The Spanish clinics dont seem to believe in immuntreatment either so I did it on my own after testing at the ARGC. The Spainish clinic was aware of me doing immuntreatment but was not really involved in that part of the treatment.
I did my scans at the London Fertility Centre, they charged £60 per scan at the time but they have so many people coming to them doing ivf abroad they have upped their prices, not sure how much now. They are quick and very good.
Hope it works for you, Im just sorry I never tested for NKC after my 1st DE m/c, it could have saved me many £££
Any questions, just shouT!
Danni


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## Andream

Hi Francis I hooked up with the lIster and they have been excellent although I ended up having DE in the uK. They do all the immune stuff too.
Andrea


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## Frances34

Thank you so much Danni and  Andrea for your replies, really really grateful as I was starting to panic a bit when I realised that the clinic in Spain don't appear to really regard the immune/NKC issue.  I will now give the ARGC, The Lister and LFC a ring later to get some more info.

Thanks again, hope to join the ladies abroad soon!!

Frances xx


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## mollymalloo

Hello Everyone,
Could those of you who have used an egg donor (particularly in Spain) give me some idea of how long you had to wait for a match. 
I am trying to decide which clinic (or even country!) to go to and am just going round in circles at the moment! 
Thanks!
Molly


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## longbaygirl

I went to Isida in Kiev and there is no wait. It takes six weeks from your decision to ET. Could be faster, but depends where in your cycle you are, and how long you need to prepare your lining, and flights/accomodation.  And the price is 3,500 Euros - fully inclusive.

Oh - and it worked for me!

Good luck


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## CaroJulia

Molly, I am with Instituto Marques, Barcelona.  Our first visit was on 30 September, at which we discussed donor requirements.  We've just heard the transfer is likely to be in the second week of November, so it will be about 6.5 weeks from the first meeting.
Good luck
Carolyn.


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## Womb with a View

Hi there.  We're with the IM in Barcelona.  We waited about 4 weeks for our first appoiintment, saw them on the 27th Sept and were informed we have a donor 2 days later and now on the "programme" with estimated date around the last week of October/first week of November.  Fash uh?!

All the best, x


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## casey

Molly - i had 1st appt with IM on 28/9 - Im waiting to hear if they have a donor but due to dates of AF iwont start meds till around 18th OCt - 
casey


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## bluebell

Molly,
I only had to wait a few weeks at IVI Barcelona from our initial meeting too.  It seemed like no time at at all.
I believe IVI Valencia has a longer waiting list (2-3 months or so) as they are a longer established clinic.
Good luck choosing  
Bluebell xxxxxxxx


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## SarahElizabeth

Mollymalloo,

Just to add we waited about 3 -4 weeks to hear whether we had a donor at IM.  I was having to wait anyway before starting on the meds for 3 weeks due to next AF date.

Beth


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## chrissier

We only had to wait a few weeks at Ceram.  I was difficult to match as well having blue eyes.

Chrissie


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## longbaygirl

Molly - you might want to check out other options. Most of the donors at Isida are very fair/blond and blue eyed. Isida also have no problem with tall donors. Height was not a big deal for me as I'm only 5:3 but my donor is 5:7! The only time I have heard they have had difficulty is with finding a ginger/redhead donor, and they ended up offering a blond donor instead. 

Kiev is much further north than Spain, hence the more scandinavian characteristics. Maybe Spain is probably best if you are looking for dark hair/eyes = Mediterranean types?

Good luck


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## bluebell

I have blonde-ish curly hair, medium skin tone and blue eyes.  DH has all of this except the curls.  IVI Barcelona had no problem finding us a match, although I do not know about our donor's height.  
I will say that the Russian clinics seem to give far more donor info, if that is what you want.  I have only been told blood group and age, althouh I know Ceram and others give more info than that, but not as much as e.g. Kiev.  I personally don't want to know too much as I would always be comparing.  I prefer the complete anonymity (although I would have liked to know nationality).  I do believe that some of the Spanish clinics recruit from e.g. Eastern Europe.
Bluebellxx


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## Womb with a View

Hi Molly, sorry you're having trouble. We are 6ft and 5'8" and the IM didn't say it would be a problem but then again we didn't ask and assume we will be told when ET arrives.  We both have blue eyes too.  Gosh, maybe we should have been more choosy.

Good luck. AJ x


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## bluebell

Just a thought ... maybe IM have got their calculations wrong with feet and inches ?  Most of Europe is metric and maybe they have converted their metres incorrectly into imperial.  You never know and maybe worth checking as to say that 5'8" is impossible for a bloke seems bizarre for a clinic that otherwise seems so on the ball.
Bluebellxxxxxx


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## Womb with a View

Thanks for the good wishes Molly!

Bluebell, you may be spot on there!  Dr Olivares of the IM said to my partner that he too was 6 foot, so it can't be unheard of!  Why not ring and speak to Dr Victoria Walker?  She's great (as they all are) and she is English.

Also, we were in Barcelona for 5 days and there are lots of local leggy people - everyone in the world is getting taller!  

I think Bluebell is right - I'd give them another call.  They are very good and it would be a pity to miss a great clinic like that just because of a miscalculation!

All the very best.  AJ x


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## longbaygirl

Oooooooo, Molly, do tell - how cheap is DE in SA?


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## longbaygirl

£2,000 is a bargain, yes flights and accomodation do up the price, but what a great place for a holiday.

Good luck

Joy


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## caron

Hi Molly - just posted to you on s/african thread , didnt realise you;d found out so much already about the cfc , are you in the us or uk , your prices sound better than mine and we're dealing with the clinic direct, we've been told (working exchange out at 10r to £1) ivf with ed £2350 + £350 for donor fee , then you pay for your own meds and icsi if you need that as well , we have just chosen our donor , a novelty for us after 3 de tx's in uk , we looked at all the donors and height ranges from 1.55m- 1.76, we're a big family too I'm 5"9 dh is 6"3 , the agency your using sounds great at that price with flights and accomodation included , we've still to add that to our tx , but as its our holiday as well we'd have had to pay for it anyway (thats how I persuaded dh to go one more time  )

good luck molly 
love caron xx


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## amies

Dear Longbaygirl,
I am tall blue eyed and blonde, sounds better than it is (!), and keen to investigate DE in countries with good matches, the Kiev clinic sounds good from what you say...and they seem to work!...do you have any details about their website address etc?
Love amies


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## longbaygirl

Amies - hope these help.

http://isida.ua/en/about.html

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/conceivingabroad/?yguid=224533795


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## safarigirl

Hi molly
can i ask you what you mean by karotyping donors?


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## Ruth

Karyotyping is checking the chromosomes so that you know that the donor has the right number!!!!
Routinely done in UK and Spain but don't know about other countries.

Ruth


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## amies

Hi everyone, I am trying to disccover if anyone knows of any clinics doing ed that will let the recipient see a pic of the donor? I know this can happen in the states but I wonder if anyone knows whether it can happen in any part of Europe too? I have also posted a similar question of the egg donor thread so apologies for bothering anyone who might have seen it there, hope everyone is keeping well, much love, sam


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## ladyblue

Hi Sam,

I'm at IM in Barcelona, and they don't let you see pics of the donor - it is anonymous.
However, they do tell you their hair/eye colour, height, build, age etc.

Unfortunately I haven't been much use, have I?  

I'll keep an eye on this thread though, as I too would be interested to find out if there are any European clinics that do show pics!

Cheers,

ladyblue
    x


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## Ruth

All of Spain won't show pics to protect donor anonymity, unsure of other countries.

Ruth


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## daisyg

Hi Sam,

As far as I am aware, no European clinics will give you pics. of the donor.

The only clinic/agency I know of (outside the USA) is Renew Body Soul in South Africa who give photos and lots of detail about the donors. A donor egg cycle with Renew in SA costs about £6,000 and includes all treatment (at the Cape Fertility Centre - very good reputation) and accommodation. I have heard very good things about this agency/clinic and it has a high success rate.

Here is a link:

http://www.renewbodysoul.com/

Good luck
Daisy
This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites!"


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## amies

Ruth, thanks for taking the time to post that for me as I can see you are busy all the time.
Ladyblue - thanks also and hope you have caught Daisy's post.
Daisy, thanks for info on SA will defintely have a look at them...and good thoughts for your upcoming try...is it with Cornell again? I hear that they are very good...much love to you..sam x


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## Lorna

We worked with a donor in the USA.  We initially talked to her on the phone, and sent her flowers, when she went through her initial tests.  We then met her, took her to visit places, took out to dinner, lent her my discount card for a local shop, went for long walks, and had a fantastic week with her, while we went through egg collection.  She was a lovely person.
So I just can't understand, why outside the USA, it is illegal, for donor and recipient to meet.
Every single profile for an egg donor, we looked at, had a photograph attached, some of the donor only; and some had pages of photos, of the donor, her children, her family, uncle Tom cobbly and all.  And it was very helpful, in deciding who to use and who not to use.
I have read various threads on this and other boards, and it seems to me that doctors like anonymity, because it saves them from dealing with messy emotions.  And as governments listen to doctors/clinics anonymity is likely to stay.  What a depressing thought.
I read one thread, where a couple were scared off using a known donor, because of all the problems it would cause in the future.  My question was how did, the doctor know what happens to the couple/donor relationship 10 to 15 years down the line, when most of us, lose touch with the clinic, a few years after the pregnancy?
And there is another thread going on the donor sperm eggs section, about “costs of a Known Donor”.  One doctor advised a couple, that it could add an extra 20,000 pounds to the cost of a cycle.  Really?  Don't think it cost us that much in the USA, and our donor, had to fly into one of the most expensive airports in the USA, and stay in a nice hotel for a week.
And Ruth says
>All of Spain won't show pics to protect donor anonymity
Why do you need to protect the anonymity of the donor?  And if the answer is because it is the law.  Why does the law enforce anonymity?  Give me a good reason.
I am with Dr Evan Harris, who says, don’t create a law unless you can show a good reason for that law.
And as far as I can tell there is *no* good reason for enforced anonymous (or enforced known) donation.  IMO, governments should let individual donors, and recipients decide for themselves whether they want to donate anonymously or more openly.
Lorna.


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## Anthony Reid

Interesting thread.... I've converted it to a poll 

Tony
x


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## earthe kitt

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Lorna - it's abviously something you feel strongly about.
I would generally prefer anonymity although I do plan to tell my current son (and hopefully  any siblings) about their background and origins but I really don't need a third party in my life on any level.
My 3 year old son was conceived using donor sperm and quite honestly I never even think about the donor, it is not an issue for me - as far as I'm concerned he has two parents and I don't care what the donor looks like or what their interests etc are. I just hope they are healthy and have a healthy set of genes to pass on.
The reason on my post on the donor thread where I said I was reluctant to go down the known donor route (i.e. freind or family member) is that I don't want a child of mine to find out about their own origins in the way that I did - in the school playground at the age of 7

Jo


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## amies

Dear Jo,  I'm sorry you had such a tough time as a child, you deserve all the good fortune in the world and I'll be thinking strong positive thoughts for you and your family in Spain next week. x

Lorna, I wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently about your experiences with your donor, it all sounds incredibly civilised. I have looked up a few donor agencies in the states, and read a few articles about them, but I am still a little confused as to how they work with the hospitals and clinics - do we need to bring all the elements together ourselves or do the agency do that for us? Do you find the agency first or the clinic? I wonder if you have the time to post the details of the agency you used, or point me in the right direction regarding the clinic etc. Much love, Sam.


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## Lorna

I read a lot of profiles in the USA, and one thing I noticed , was that, donors age 30+, who had completed their families, nearly always, insisted on meeting the recipient.
So I think there is another side to this discussion.  How many potential donors, are being lost because donors are banned by law from meeting the recipient?
It seems to me, that changing the law to allow donors to chose whether to donate anonymously or openly would increase the number of donors, and that would be a good thing.
Lorna


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## Womb with a View

Hi there.  I'm sure there is a third side to this point of view, too and I hadn't thought about that until you mentioned it.  My thoughts on this is that both the receiver and donor should have a say in whether they wish to be a known donor or not, so, infact, we have the option, like they do in the USA.  It is not something that should be forced upon us.  The new law has clearly frightened possible donors away.  We want more, not less, and, of course, we should be thinking about the children involved.  However, we, as parents, should make that final choice for them, not some organisation who seem to think they know best.  Rubbish!

Re seeing the donor's photo.....I thought I would have liked to see what the donor looks like...but what if I didn't like the look of them (this sounds awful, but you know what I mean - hopefully)?  So, I'm not sure about this one for me but again I think the receiver should have the option as should the donor!

Where is all the choice in this? !  AJ x


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## casey

Personally I don't want to see what the donor looks like nor would I want to meet them, but I cannot say what my child would want in the future (if im that lucky!!)
I do plan to tell them about the donor and the story of their conception because I believe everyone has the right to know their origins but how far do you take that right!!! and what seems to be coming out with the falling number of sperm donors is that the donors themselves do not want the responsibility 
On a purely emotional level i don't want a mental image of the donor each time i look at my child - don't know whether thats right or wrong ??
casey


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## amies

Lorna,
I would still be interested to hear details of the agency/clinic you visited for your egg donation as they sounded very forward thinking, or if anyone else has had a positive experience perhaps they could let me know, many thanks, love, Sam


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## julesuk

I do sometimes wonder what Katelyn's sperm donor looks like. 

Would be great to see a pic!!

Love Jules xxx


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## caron

hi girls  

thought i'd tell you about our new clinic in capetown, Daisy gave you the web address of the agency that deals with the clinic and you do get to see a picture of donor and other details, but if you deal with clinic direct you get to choose your donor from a list , then you see a profile telling you a brief history about them and there family and a photo of the donor as a toddler or young child , also we just paid for our tx and it came in at £2370.00 including donor fee, and one of the doc's at clinic has appartments 3bedroomed 5 mins walk from clinic for £12 each per night , and its a warm, holiday destination.

good luck everyone 
love caron xx


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## Lorna

Hi Sam (amies)

There are masses of donors in the USA.  OK, if you want a Jewish egg donor, from a particular sect, and she must have above average intelligence, plus some other qualities, then there are 20 recipients to every donor.
If you are prepared to accept a college graduate, who looks reasonably like you, then the problem becomes how to whittle all the candidates down, to a manageable number.
And there are many ways to find a donor.  Most recipients find one through the clinic they opt to use.  All the clinics I contacted, supplied anonymous donors; and having found out that in the USA, it is OK to meet your donor, I was determined to use a known donor.
You can look on the web, and see if anyone takes your fancy.  Then you have to think up any extra questions, you want to ask them.  Also with an internet donor, you are responsible for paying all bills, and expenses, so it is probably worth having a bank account in the USA.  And for that you probably need a social security number, which we didn’t have.
Our primary reason for going to the US, was to do surrogacy, but because my eggs were of poor quality, we opted to use an egg donor.  The surrogacy agency also owns an egg donor agency, so we used them.  The surrogacy agency we used, put our money into a trust account, and paid all the bills for us.  We got itemised bills every month to check.  It made it all so easy.
We logged onto the agency’s web site and read all their short profiles for white donors, from very short to very tall, but as I am 5ft 2inches,so a 6ft 6inch donor was probably a silly idea.  While we were in the USA, meeting our surrogate, we dropped into the egg donor agencies offices(by prior arrangement) and looked at all the profiles, they had to hand, about 40 ten page profiles.
What does a 10 page profile look like?
First page: is are one of more pictures of the donor, maybe with her family,  aunts, uncles, her dog, horse, favorite car, and so on.
Next page and page after is general stuff, like age, where she lives, job, employer, details of partner, weight, hair colour, eye colour ethnic origin, religion, etc..  Where she lives is important, because you need to know how much travelling, you or your donor will do.  And the stuff on job and employer, helps to asses, how easy she will find it to get time off work.  Although I found out, when we were going through treatment in the USA, that there are federal laws in the USA, that allow employees to take time off work for stuff like IVF and not be penalised. Any employer, who gives an employee grief over IVF, would find themselves being sued in court, and the employee would win.
Next page is her fertility history.  Things like how many children she has, how long it took to conceive her child/children, and any problems she may have had.  The first donor we selected, had to drop out.  She had conceived while on the pill and so did the donor we eventually used. And the random profile of the donor, I have pulled out to look at, she also conceived, while using contraception.
Page after, questions about physical and mental health, drinking habits, any medicines taken recently, etc.
Page after that, education history.  We were looking for someone with a science background, as we are both engineers
Then comes things, like what books you read, films, you watch, your dream holiday, your hopes and dreams for the future.  These are the kind of things that make you think, you might like to use a particular donor.
Then the donor is asked to describe her family:  age, hair colouring, eye colour, height and weight, occupation.  The donor is asked to assess how healthy they are and if they are dead, when and how they died, and.  Family includes, not only mum and dad and siblings, but grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, if you can!
Then you are asked to describe any serious health problems any of your family have had, from heart disease, to cancer, asthma to eczema, mental health, alcoholism, genetic illnesses and so on.  We rejected one donor, because, her grandfather, father, and brother were all alcoholics.
Then comes a detailed description of the egg donor’s children.  Not just what they look like, but their personalities as well.  Then the donor is asked to describe herself, what her personality is like, her hobbies, fun things to do, philosophy of life.
And then there are questions on egg donation, why she is doing it, how does she think it is done, what sort of couple she wants her eggs to go to, whether she will tell people what she has done and how she think they will react.
And finally questions on the recipient couple and the child she will be creating for them.  You know what sort of relationship she wants, while going through donation and afterwards, what message she may want to send to any child/children created and so on.  And I think it was the answers to these questions, that made me select or reject any particular donor.
It was in this section, where, there seemed to be the greatest differences between donors.  All the donors I selected, wanted to meet me and the ones near the top of my list, wanted to have some kind of relationship with the child, albeit a remote one.  These donors tended to be around 30, with one of more children.  Donors who wanted anonymity, tended to be younger and childless.  As with any huge generalisation, there were exceptions.
Donors who wanted to meet the recipient were in the minority, but the agency found that they tended to make more committed donors.  And they were in demand, perhaps because they were so positive about things.  Known donors had a link with the recipient and for them donation was about the gift of life.  Sure the money got a donor interested, but you can’t buy their commitment to donation or the way they felt so good about what they were doing, that they would move heaven and earth for the recipient.  No amount of encouragement on my part would make it happen.
So I went for donors, who made it clear in the last section of their profile, that they realised that making a child was a lifelong commitment.  The thing I loved about the first donor I selected, was that she wanted to a long distance auntie to my child.  Sadly, we had problems, and she was dropped.
When you select donor, you are not just selecting the donor, but their children, partners etc.  We flew over and met our first donor.  We had dinner in a restaurant, with her, her child, and her boyfriend.  Our prospective donor was lovely, and her child was adorable, but the boyfriend, shall we say, was less than wonderful.  We had all sorts of problems with her, and looking back they were probably caused by her boyfriend.  Things went so badly wrong, that in the end, we were forced to seek another donor.  My feeling is that the boyfriend sabotaged the relationship.
And we nearly lost our second donor, after contract signing, because her soon to be ex husband, abducted her only child.  Luckily for everyone, the child was returned quickly, and, once the dust had settled, we were able to work with her to have our two children.
It took about 8 months from, first starting to look for a donor, to embryo transfer, and a pregnancy.
I will admit, everything that happened to us was unusual, but, I feel, when it comes to infertility treatment, I should hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.
We put another requirement on any donor we used.  I felt it was important, that my children knew where they came from, and that means that in the future, I want them to have the option to meet the donor.  So my donors, also had to agree to that.
While we were talking to people in the USA, we met someone, who had selected a donor, by photo matching.  The child looked just like mum, but when the parents went back to the 10 page profile, the child’s personality was that of the donor.  The parents were outgoing party animals, who loved sports.  The donor was an introverted book worm.  The parents, adored their daughter, but they did find her difficult at times.  When they went out to a national park; the parents wanted hike all over the place, and the daughter wanted to sit under a tree, and read a book.
So their advice to us, was match as closely as you can on personality, and go for a donor,  that approximates to you on looks.  You can always invent a long lost, dead relative, who lived in a far away place, if anyone asks questions.
Once we had our donor, the next problem was to find a clinic.  If I found a clinic that would allow me to bring my own donor, they wouldn’t do a cycle with a surrogate, and those who were happy to work with a surrogate, insisted I use an egg donor they provided.  And the first donor, we selected, refused to travel.  So we had to find a clinic that was close to her.  All good fun and games.  We ended up at the 4th best clinic in the USA in the end, so maybe all that grief was worth it.
We, now, have two gorgoeus little boys, who I think the world of.  I just wish everyone could be so lucky.
Lorna


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## amies

Dear Lorna,
all that information is invaluable, particularly the stuff about matching the personality type more closely than the looks even. It wasn't something that I hadn't thought about before but now you mention it , it makes perfect sense. My own biological daughter, although very disabled, has pretty much the same reactions to life as me and it does make things easier trying to second guess what her problems are. Although of course there are no guarantees!
I'm still not sure if I am totally ready to meet my donor (when I find one) but I would certainly like enough information so that I felt like I had met her - if that makes sense. It would also make me better informed for any questions my future child might ask as well I suppose.
I really appreciate all the effort you put in to putting out that info, and feel sure there are others out there thinking the same.
I wondered how you knew you ended up at the 4th best place in the USA, is there a table somewhere?
Also, have you or anyone else ever heard anything about the Advanced Fertility Centre in Chicago - they seem to do a lot of research and come up a lot on Google questions. If anyone knows anything I'd love to hear. Much love to you and your little ones, Sam x


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## Lorna

Hi this is my take on AJ’s comment
>if I didn't like the look of them (this sounds awful, but you know 
>what I mean - hopefully)?
I am sure this is going to provoke lots of comments.
There is always a chance, however small that the child will turn out to be an exact copy of the donor.  IMO, it is better to select a donor, who you adore, so if the child turns out to be the donor’s double, then you will adore them too.  And in order to find the best possible match between the recipient and the donor, it is better to have lots of potential donors to select from.
When it comes to adoption, do social workers say, here is a child who need to be adopted, and give any old child, to the first approved parents, that comes along?  Or do the social workers sit down, and try to match a couple’s expectations, to an appropriate child?
If you are putting a team of people together at work, do you look at the available people, their skills, their personalities, and so on and try to create a team that is balanced in terms of abilities, and personalities, or do you because, you have no choice, throw any old group of people together.  Probably in reality the latter.
So why is choice good, when it comes to team building? And why is when it comes to adoption, is writing down the parent’s expectations; a description of the child, and the  needs of everyone involved, good: and if I do exactly that, when it comes to selecting a donor, it’s bad?
So if choice is good in every other aspect of our lives, why is it bad, when it comes to IVF?  Yes give people choices, and some will make bad choices, but generally people make better decisions for themselves, than other people can make for them.
You cannot design a “perfect” system.  People are not perfect.  You can only design a system, that produces good results for most people, most of the time.  Do the infertility laws in the UK, produce the best results, for the majority of people, virtually all of the time?  Or do they produce sorta OK results, for some people, every now and then?
From reading boards like this, it seems if you are CMV negative, you have to take what you are given, and from my experiences in the USA, that may end up producing a mismatch between the parents and the child, and that isn’t fair on the child.
And what happens if you are CMV negative, and non white?  Do you ever find a donor?
When it some to sperm/egg donation, I would like, most recipients, to be able to find a suitable donor, within in a reasonable length of time(6 months?).  We don’t seem to have that sort of system right now in the UK.
So if and when recipients in the UK, ever get a choice of donors, no I don’t think it is wrong to reject a donor who you find ugly.  What makes someone attractive to you?  We found when we were looking through donor profiles, that hubby picked donors, who he thought were attractive, but I thought were positively ugly; and he rejected some egg donors, who I thought looked nice, because he didn’t like they way they looked.
I also feel meeting your donor is important too.  What happens if you meet your donor, and instantly hate her.  There is some evidence that anything from 30% to 70% of a child’s personality is inherited.  In the case of the outgoing sporty parents, with the introverted child, they would probably say 90% of their child’s personality was inherited.
So, surely it is kinder to the child, to pick a donor, who is attractive, to you, and has a similar personality.  I rejected an international athlete, because I am definitely a couch potato.  Surely it makes sense for internationally renowned musicians, to chose a donor, who is a concert pianist.  I think forcing them to raise a tone deaf child is cruel to the child.  Now a tone deaf child, as a result of using a tone deaf donor, no problem for me.  Introverted bookworms also OK.
I want to do the best, I can, for my donor created child. That means creating a list of requirements, and selecting the best match, between my donor and me.  It is not about creating the perfect child, it is about creating the best match between the child and myself.  And my perfect match, may very well be your worst nightmare.  
And yes I am aware of recessive genes.  I, am convinced I am parents child, but what on earth is a child with reddish curly hair and hazel eyes, doing in a family of who all have straight brown hair, and  brown eyes.  And my parents are both A+, but I am A-.  What happened?
There was a thread on one board discussing this, where someone joked, that as no two members of their family looked alike, not only had the milkman called, but also the butcher the baker, and candlestick maker 
Raising a child is hard enough.  What is the point of stacking the deck against you, if you don’t have to.  I had 40 donors to chose from.  So I chose those donors, whose profiles created a warm fuzzy glow inside me.  I ended up with 5, I really liked, and 10 that were acceptable.
And one of my children, is the donor’s double, and he is adorable.
Lorna


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## Womb with a View

Hi Lorna.  I would most certainly like more choice in who my donor is.  As you know, in this country, that is pretty slim.  I am 46 and can't wait for a donor much longer so have gone abroad.  When I say I wouldn't like to see the donor's photo, I meant in "retrospect" - as in, seeing the photo just before ET!  I too would like choice.  I don't really appeciate my donor being chosen for me.  However, other than going to Europe, where I understood donation was anonymous, the other choice was the USA.  I have posted on another thread detailing why we didn't go to the USA, where donation is either anonymous or not, you have the choice, and that explanation is probably controversial BUT our reasons for not going there.  I apologise in advance to anyone this might offend.  We didn't go to the USA because we wanted to bear a child who came from a donor we admired, respected, felt in alignment with and we feel our European neighbours fit that bill.  Having had much contact with the USA, we do not feel in alignment with the countries values, views, way of life.  That, of course, is s generalisation, but we felt much happier with our choice of egg donor coming from Spain, whose culture we admire.  

However, it would have been nice to have some choice in who the donor was.  Intelligence wise, build, morals, etc.  When I said "what if I don't like the look of them" when I see the photo.....both our families are very good looking people and I do not want my child feeling left out in that department, I want them to feel at home, to fit in.  So, I was thinking about my child too.  As always.  

Our donor, however, is intelligent (just trained to be a lawyer in Spain) which matches our frame of intelligence.  Physically the donor is well matched in height, etc.  

I am not sure I would want to have dinner with my donor but I would much appreciate more info.

AJ xx


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## Lorna

What gets me, is the government goes on about choice.  As a parent I should be able to chose my child's school.  I should be allowed to invest my pension pot, in the way I want to.  As a patient, I should be able to chose which hospital I have treatment, blah, blah, blah.......

But when it come to IVF, it is all about control. We are going to tell you how many embryos to transfer.  Anonymous versus known donation.  Well we know what is best for every donor, and every recipient, so you'll do it our way!

So Tony Blair, stop talking about choice, and give those of us who are undergoing fertility treatment, *REAL CHOICE*. 

Lorna


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## viqui.b

Hi, this has been a real interesting thread. My partner had cancer as a child and the combination of teatment he recieved left him infertile. we really want children and have decided to use a sperm donor. This is a whole new world, and a frightening one at that! we're being refered to the Elizabeth Garrett Hospital in London. I don t yet know all the details... how do they choose a match for us? I'm afraid that the baby won't have similar looks to my partner, and that people will question us. I'm just a bit nervous about it all. Do we get to see any information on the donor?


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## earthe kitt

I wouldn't worry about the child looking like you or taking after you.
My son was born as a result of donor sperm and I am surprised at how many people say he looks just like his dad. 
People will believe what they want to believe.

Jo


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## Lozzy_LL

Me and my brother look completely different he is tall slim and blond and I am short and dark no one ever questioned us or our parents so I wouldn't worry if your baby's donor is not an identical match to you, as long as you baby is healthy and happy that is the main thing.

Lozzy


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## Fin

Hi guys,

Not sure if anyone has recommended this site yet but Xytex.com is an American web site where for a small fee (about £35) you can have unlimited access for 3 months to in-depth information on donors including their adult and child pictures.

I used them just before Christmas when I had to have donor as a back up for our treatment and found them wonderful and really helpful in making my decision.

Believe me seeing pictures is important as I found out when we had shortlisted 3 donors before paying the fee to be able to see pictures and had the shock of our life when we did see pictures.  The donor we would have thought was the most suitable as to height, hair, eyes etc.... could not have looked more different from my husband in any way.  Scary thought!

Take your time and review all your options.

Lol to you all.

Fin xxx


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## daisyg

Dear b123,

Just to let you know that I have used California Cryobank twice, once for ivf in the US and once when I exported donor sperm to Spain for a donor egg cycle.

They are the top donor sperm clinic in the US and the no. 1 choice for the majority of ivf clinics there. They have a fantastic reputation.

I found them easy to use, professional, superbly helpful with a huge choice of donors (including photos, biogs, voice recording etc. etc and also identity release donors if you are interested in your child contacting the donor when they are 1. They will even match a donor to your own or a family photo and discuss this with you.

The export process was easy - they arrange it all for you including the container, all customs and export docs. etc. I am not sure of costs because things may have changed since I did this over a year ago. I would recommend checking out their website.

www.cryobank.com

Good Luck

Daisy


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## olivia m

Hi ladies
I know going abroad feels like a very positive way to get access to an egg donor, but do keep in mind how your child is likely to feel about it in the future. I assume your will be sharing this information with them as, not only is this is recommended as the healthiest basis for families to live together (honesty,trust etc. being the basis of all good relationships), but because easy DNA testing will certainly make it easy for them to find out. When they want to know something about their donor, what will you say? When they find out that children conceived in the UK since April 2005 will be able to find out the identity of their donor but they can't, what will you say? You will, I assume, being bringing them up with dual cultural heritage so that they can know something of their Czech, Russian or Spanish backgrounds - this will certainly explain why they don't quite seem to fit in with English looks, if neither you nor your partner share this particular heritage.
Yes, egg donors are more freely available abroad, but this is because they are paid for their eggs - will your child be happy with this? Are you happy that your donor has not been exploited because she comes from a poor background or is too young to give proper consent?
Please, please do give these issues your proper thought and attention before going ahead. Your child will have to live with your decision for the rest of his/her life.
With best wishes
Olivia

Moderator note - As this post has already been replied to, I will leave it here but please note, multiple postings are NOT allowed on FF.


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## Jennifer

Olivia

The tone of your post is a little unsettling.  It is actually not your place to 'assume' anything that the girls on this board choose to tell their children about how they were conceived.  There are many, many women who have had egg/sperm donor children in the UK before April who have no intention of telling their children their genetic roots.

I cannot write any more on this post as I am too angry but have passed it to the admin team for their comments.

Have you had treatment yourself ?  
What is the nature of your infertility ?
Are your views shared by the DCN who you appear to be representing ?

I note you have had donor insemination before the anonymity laws changed.


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## saffire

Hi Olivia

I understand the questions you raise, and yes they are certainly worth thinking about for the future and welfare of the child. I do believe honesty is important and i plan to tell my child at some point when they are of an age to understnd.

However egg donation is a miracle cure for many, who like me have been striggling with infertility for years, its a women's right to experience motherhood and to ahve a baby.

This country is the worst by far with its redtape, beauracy and waiting lists, and right now our concern is not what we will tell our child, but our we get to that stage... many of us if you read the email threads have been trying for years and many have been through hell and back trying different methods to succeed. Egg donation and going abroad is for someof us the ONLY hope we have.

So yes iam sure all us ladies will when the time comes, tell our child/children about it roots and heritage and maybe take them back to their native home.. The egg is only one part of the whole experience of being a mother, the rest is the values, principle, beliefes you have in raising that child who maynot be biologically yours. Not that dissimiliar to adoption really.

saffire


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## saffire

Flippy

I also agree with you that its is no ones business at the end of the day, what we tell our children, whether we tell them or not.. Its very much our decision.. quite right.

Just as children born to HIV or Drug addicts do not have a choice of being born, just as children born before April who dodnot know, and many children who are raised by single mothers where they chose not to disclose who the father is. This is very much upto the individual / couples to decide.

However I think right now, for many of us, the pain of wanting a child and trying to have one outreaches all other thinking... when a women has been to the back and beyond, bankrupted themselves paying fertility clinics through the nose, the question of they will tell their long awaited child really doesnot matter or seem very important. its a given that we will tackle that when we have to.

saffire


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## bluebell

I will simply add that I believe the most important thing in a child's life is love and stability from it's parent/s.  People who have gone to the lengths to have children born from egg donation abroad deeply want children otherwise they wouldn't go through so much torment to conceive.  These children will therefore be loved so much and nurtured so fully.  Olivia, I know you represent DCN, but perhaps you should turn your attention to children born to people who conceive naturally by mistake and who don't want children .. e.g. teenagers who have no idea about how to bring up a child in a stable home.
Bluebell


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## olivia m

Hi everyone
I need to let you know that I was posting personally, NOT representing DC Network. I had intended to be provocative but not offensive and I'm really sorry if this is what has occurred.  Clearly not a day for good judgement on my part.
I do absolutely understand that any children conceived with be very much loved and wanted, but it is also true that donor conceived adults would say that this is not enough. They do want to know about their donor.
My own situation is that I have two children, now young people of 19 and 22, conceived from anonymous sperm donation. Nothing else was possible 24 years ago.  The situation is different now.
Once again, I must apologise for any offense given...I plead only strong feelings about the needs of the children and a wish to promote deep consideration of these before making choices.
Olivia


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## saffire

Olivia

You have two children, so there you have your answer, many of us dont, and in our cases most of us are women with egg or anatomical problems.. why did you go for donor insemination, whynot accept that you cant have chidren due to yor partner's problem or whatever your situation is/ was ie you could be single.. I dont really wish to pry into your situation. did you not think what your children may think or feel when they became older ? and what you would say ? why did you chose to have children at all given your situation and no choice as you say in those days ?

I dont think anyone is in a position to questions what any of us ladies would do, its very much horses or courses, howver all I know is when you wnat a child so much to be a MUM to recieve an dgive love, you would do anything, and right now the question of  what you may say to your child isnot an issue.

How are your children dealing with their knowledge, ahve they wnated to find their biologocal father ? is this perhaps the reason you are bringing your thoughts to the table ?

I understand your questioning, but we all very strong feelings and emotions that outweigh future questioning.

Saff


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## weeble

Olivia
I get the feeling we have crossed paths in the past over you views. Why dont you just keep them to yourself. 
I am British, from British parents/grandparent etc and I have had no family for very many years, no one to ask questions about my birth or about any part of my family history.......Are you suggesting that I shouldnt have been born because I cant now get answers. I agree that it can be frustrating not to know things about your background but to be honest Im just bloody glad to be alive and I say that even after having had an abusive childhood.
I think you should stop sticking your insensitive nose in where it really doesnt belong. I have no doubt whatsoever that every woman on this site would make a fantastic mother, no matter where the child comes from, Donor egg's/embryos/sperm, adoption, whatever. And I equally believe that its how you raise a child that counts in the end.
I cannot believe how angry I have let you get me again. 
Weeble


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## Kasia

Dear Olivia,

First of all, on a board such as this I think there is a very fine line between being 'provocative' and 'offensive'. See definition below for further information:

provocative adj 1 tending or intended to cause anger; deliberately infuriating. 2 said of a debate, argument, etc: controversial, but often stimulating. 3 sexually arousing or stimulating, especially by design. provocatively adverb.
ETYMOLOGY: 17c.

Chambers Online Dictionary

I do want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your intentions are good. However, you must realise that this is a very sensitive topic and the issues you have raised are ones that can stir up deep emotions.

Furthermore, you make statements, presenting them as facts, without backing them up with any verifiable data. And most of the time they are simply your opinions, not facts set in stone. Naturally, you - and everyone else for that matter - are entitled to your opinions. But they are just that - opinions - not facts.

For example, you say: "I do absolutely understand that any children conceived with be very much loved and wanted, but ***it is also true that donor conceived adults would say that this is not enough. They do want to know about their donor***."

Whilst I believe that donor-conceived adults who know they were conceived via donor gametes MAY WELL want to know their origins, please do not make a blanket statement saying 'they do want to know about their donor'. How can you make this judgement? Based on what evidence? Your own experience perhaps? But this is not enough. There are many adopted people (as I think has already been mentioned by others here) who decide they do not want to find their biological parents. So why should this be any different? How can you say that EVERYONE will act in this way, because this is what you are inferring - or at least this is what I understand from your statements.

You also say: "My own situation is that I have two children, now young people of 19 and 22, conceived from anonymous sperm donation. Nothing else was possible 24 years ago.  The situation is different now."

Sorry, but I think you are mistaken here. When you say 'nothing else was possible 24 years ago' - do you really mean that? So, were you forced at gunpoint to use anonymous donor sperm? You had other options, didn't you? For example, you could have adopted children or remained childless. I am not saying that is what you WANTED to do, but if you had felt so uncomfortable about using anonymous donor sperm, you did not HAVE TO do it. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

When you try to convince  other people of your arguments, please at least get the facts right before you begin. If you do not, you risk lacking credibility.

This is simply my opinion.


Kasia


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## saffire

Dear Kasia

Wonderfully put !! wow I need someone like you when doing contracts and negotitaions !!

I think you have put it beautifully. I just wonder whether Olivia is justifying her own actions or giving us food for thought form her own experiences...whatever iam giving her the benefit of the doubt...however at the end of the day its my decision,a nd noon can change my attitude on that..

also I believe amny children never wnat to know when they grow up, some know but never pursue their biological egg donor and some do....its again horses or courses for people.. one of my good friends is adopted, knows that, but has never wnated to know his biological parents... another friend similiar, knows but doesnot care, because she has an amazing relationship with her parents who adopted her...

So i believe its something left well alone now, until the situation arises.. but we are NOT stupid women, of course we ahev thought it through, to go through the complexities we are going througha ndhave gone through..we are extremely intelligent, sensitive and aware


saff


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## safarigirl

Kasia - incredibly well put and written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Bravo bravo!!!! I think we should cut and paste this response of yours on the abroadies general thread as well as you have really put such good points forward.  Olivia I hope you are reading this. (especailly the point about when you made your decision that there was NO other choice ... really!  How convenient for you!


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## Kasia

Thanks for your replies, Saff and Safarigirl (wow, I just realised how similar your names are - not at all English either, may I add  ...). But, I digress.. I think you have both made excellent points too and fully agree with what you have said!

I didn't want to risk repeat posting, so that's why I only posted this reply here, Safarigirl - but maybe I can post a modified version on the other thread - in the hope that Olivia will at least read it, even if she does not reply. As far as I can see, she still has not answered any of my questions - or those asked by others. I'd be interested to hear her answers...


Kasia


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## Bangle21

Ditto Kasia and Saff!!

I too was deeply disappointed to read Olivia's views.  As you girls say, the "conception" is only the start and who has the right to probe people about the "conception" of their children?  It is the most personal and intimate thing - I would  hope this wouldn't be something you would generally ask people in other circumstances about regardless of they might have been so why should we be any different  

At the end of the day, the "conception" is just the kick-start to the creation of a child - who, will have it's mothers blood running through its veins!!!  As the girls say, the most important thing is to love and nurture and if you took the time to read what many of the girls on here have been through, they have been to hell and back and any children born out of donor eggs/sperm will be loved like no other.  Please don't patronise us for not having the "savvy" to think about all the issues you have raised.  Of course we will be taking the welfare of any children born extremely seriously!!  You seem to be comparing us to people who "don't give a damn" and only think about themselves.

Olivia, wouldn't you have been offended and patronised if someone had hit you with all these probing questions when you were considering donor sperm?  

You obviously went ahead and decided to take the risk of your children wanting to know about their origins so how can you come on here and blatantly belittle the girls on here for thinking about doing the same.  Can I ask, what makes you so different

You mentioned any d.e. born children's "Spanish"/"Czech"/Russian"  backgrounds - what "background" exactly does an egg have?  We will be carrying the child, nurturing it, giving it blood, giving birth to it and most of all LOVING it.  Why shouldnt then, your argument stand true with immigrants bringing their children into the UK and into the UK culture.  Can we assume that you feel that these children are brought up with a dual-cultural heritage??  Please, come on.  Nothing in 2006 is black and white.  There is no longer such a thing as a "normal" family any more.

I also find your comment "donors are paid for their eggs" extremely crass.  They are not "paid by the egg" - they are compensated for having to put their bodies through a difficult and physically draining process,  taking on risks not only of OHSS but from the anaesthetic.  ( I assume you have never experienced IVF yourself?)  Call me naive but I would like to think these women aren't just "doing it for the money" but because they empathise with women in our situation who can't do the most natural thing in the world.  If it was just about the money, how could these women possibley put a price on their eggs??  

Why does the child need to be told any of this?  Surely then, you would argue that women going for private IVF should also tell their children they were "bought" and that Mummy and Daddy paid a clinic to be able to have them??  This is just ridiculous!

I also don't see how you can say some donors are being exploited.  We all have choices.  No one is forcing them into this.

Olivia, I'm sure we can all see where you're coming from but I'm sure we are 1. all intelligent enough to have thought about all of this and 2. Sensitive enough to do the right thing by our child - without needing "advice" from other people.  No-one goes into this lightly and it frankly, this attitude is tiring.  So often, women in our hellish situation are branded as "desperate" and "selfish" ............. the funny thing is, this attitude usually comes from people who already have children and in my experience, these people also tend to be a bit hypocritical.

Lets start supporting each other here instead making a difficult situation even worse.

Love to all
gill xo


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## boakie

Hi,

I am sorry I wasn't going to post but feel quite angry about was has been said so why not put my point across!!

I have been infertile since the age of 18 and have been on the NHS waiting list for 5 years and have not moved up!!!

My only chance of ever having a family was to  look into egg donation abroad where there is no shortage of donors, yes I am desperate to become a mother but donors are counselled before they go for the treatment they are not forced into it!!!!(this is my only option)

I find ur view very insensitive and inappropriate for posting on a thread quite cowardly if you ask me!!!

Boakie


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## olivia m

sHi Kasia and everyone else,
Unfortunately the message I posted this morning at about 12.15 on the Abroadies 34 thread does not seem to have appeared.  In this I addressed all the questions put by Kasia yesterday.  I will go back there and try to do this again.  I started by apologising once more for the insensitivity and lack of respect evident in my first post. 
Just on the point of 'having no other choice' 24 years ago.  I meant no choice other than an anonymous donor.  Of course we had other choices open to us.  The whole climate around donor conception was very different then...but I am definitely not looking for sympathy or anything else.  My husband and I are completely comfortable with the choices we made then - our wonderful kids were told about their origins from very little - one is very curious about her donor and the other is not, so I am well aware that not all donor conceived people do want information about their backgrounds...but certainly most would like a choice about it as adopted people have.  
I am of course very sad that some of you have decided that I represent DC Network as a whole.  My strong feelings are in fact my own - there are a whole spectrum of views throughout the Network.  I personally represent one end only.  You may be surprised to know that in conversation with individuals I am ALWAYS empathic and supportive, only ever gently putting some of the issues so strongly (and probably stupidly) expressed here.  After all, I too have faced the prospect of childlessness in the past.  I also know how easy it is to focus on the need to have a child and hope that the 'afterwards' will take care of itself.  I am not accusing anyone of being uncaring, unthinking or unintelligent - just potentially very focused on the end, rather than the means.  If you have all given these issues carefull thought and consideration and come to your decisions, then so be it - but I come across an awful lot of people who have not been offered the opportunity to think these things through and are pleased to have the chance.
Best wishes
Olivia


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## earthe kitt

Just to throw in another perspective........

I was conceived as a result of rape - my mother knew the rapist.
She always siad she would have had a termination but they weren't available in 1963

Sometimes you know, it's not so good to know about your origins

Jo


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## saffire

Olivia
says :
"I also know how easy it is to focus on the need to have a child and hope that the 'afterwards' will take care of itself. "

saffire : It is very important when you have no child to focus on having one, especially when you still dont know why you keep miscarrying and you are told your eggs are too old and you will never respond to IVF....as for things taking care of themselves they do !!!!

Iam of asain origin with natural parents, I came to the Uk at the age of 5, however I have adjusted to both west/ east cultures and noone would know that Iam anything other than british. Children are very adjusting and adopting of situations, this is an EGG that we are talking about which as someone said has no real identify other than its DNA, and what is that  it cant be Russian or Czech, it just basically has some maternal genetic code for the women who donated it.

things do sort them selves out, I do think your confusing adoption perhaps with egg donation here, the complexities are very diff then and I might understand your views and concerns then..

saff


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## Jassie

Hello everyone - I haven't posted for a while but felt moved to say something following on from this discussion. It's only a small something but it's something which has comforted me over the past few weeks and which puts things into perspective for me.
It's actually something which Angelina Jolie is reported to have said - as you know she adopted two children from a different background to her and is currently pregnant too.

She said - I always felt my children would find me in life.

I thought this was so beautiful. Despite all the cr*p we've had to go through, the heartache and the pain - and no matter how they are conceived or come into our lives - it's felt comforting to think that our children are out there, just waiting to find us.

Me, I'm an accidental product of a teenage pregnancy. My dad left us when I was two and my stepdad has been my dad ever since I was six. You know, I sometimes read stories about people who've been trying to track down their parents and I think - how upsetting this must be to not be able to find your family. But then I have to pinch myself, and remember that I have not seen my biological father for at least 25 years. I have had no contact with him at all. My stepdad was the only who looked after me with my mum when I was young, came to parents' evenings, picked me up and dusted me down when I fell over, cleared up when I was sick and, later, looked disapprovingly on unsuitable boys. I have no desire to meet my biological father - to me, he was just someone my mum was once with and who had a part to play in my conception. Other than that, I'm afraid there are no emotional ties. My 'Mo and Pa' are a big part of my world and continue to love and support me and my DH unconditionally, as my sister and I do back for them. I feel so lucky to have such a remarkable family and I wouldn't change any of them for the world.

Much love to all Abroadies, and don't let the viewpoint of one upsetting person get you down.

Jx


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## bunless

_You will, I assume, being bringing them up with dual cultural heritage so that they can know something of their Czech, Russian or Spanish backgrounds ..._

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read - an egg or a sperm are a single cell, they aren't mini babies, they cannot have a culture.

Ladies, I wish you well in your journeys to your children & trust that you are all able to make the best decisions for your families.

I also note that the DCN, as a result of its lobbying has removed pretty much any chance of donor conception in the UK, they are staunchly against embryo donation. I hold them akin to the anti-adoption movement, full of half facts, misinformation and opinion masquerading as evidence.

Layla


----------



## Womb with a View

Firstly, I am actually very unwell with food poisoning and have the job from hell to contend with tomorrow but having stuipidly just glanced at this thread, I cannot go back to bed without putting my thoughts forward.

Jo - may I say that was such a brave action by you to share your history with us.  Knowing you as I do, I know that you are a wonderful, sensitive person and it couldn't have been easy.  I totally agree with you in your statement.  It is sometimes best not to know. xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Jassie - (good to see you back) - thanks to you too for sharing personal info which gives us another dimension to think about when there is so much bias going on from certain quarters.  xxxxxxxx

Olivia - as a professional therapist myself (I have two jobs, hence the job from hell tomorrow, which is not therapy work) I would say first and foremost that we are trained to put aside our "strong personal opinions and beliefs" as we are not able to help our clients/patients otherwise.  I still question your suitability to the role at DCN.  For example, I work with all kinds of people going through all kinds of problems.....I wouldn't dream of showing empathy and compassion to their face yet running them and their problem down in another moment, elsewhere.  What I am saying is that you are incongruent with your work.

I have three questions for you: 

Question One:  if you could go back in time, knowing what you claim to know now, and you had a choice once more of being childless or having anonymous donor sperm, which would you choose?
Question Two:  if you were, say, my age today or slightly younger perhpas (I am 47), were childless and faced a life of childlessness but had the option of using donor eggs/sperm from an anonymous donor to become a mummy, what would you choose?  (Remember, waiting for donor sperm/eggs in the UK is nigh on impossible now as a wait would take me over the age of 50 or so before I even got a sniff at DE IVF in the UK).
Question Three:  do you regret your actions of having children via anonymous donor sperm?

Again, you are making unsubstainisated claims such as "I come across an awful lot of people who have not been offered the opportunity to think these things through".  

The reason your post has not appeared on the abroadies thread is that the moderators have stopped you for doing so as to stop multiple postings I understand, so this is now your place to reply.  If you had read the abroadies thread in detail you would have known that.

Night, night ladies. xx


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## stevie1

And from a Blokes point of view 
I am of the OPININION that  if one makes the necessary major adjustment to ones life when having a child  from any of the pre mentioned options we will make a load of decisions on the way .... the best decisions we can  of course  and i feel that if i had a child  that wanted to now anything about their past,  i would be inclined to discuss the issue with that child in such a way that they were happy and in full awareness of the situation surrounding their birth if it was pertinant/appropriate . i also have a feeling that it would be nice to think that the child /adult /person would be loved so much throughout their life  that this wouldn't be a concern of theirs  whether it had been discussed or not  it is a very sensitive subject and i would like to add that as long as the child is loved and treated with the respect they deserve ie(the respect you would want ) then all should be well given that all of us would Cherish the bundle of life with all we have in our hearts i could ramble on for hours  but in an effort to be neutral i will stop here 
after all i am just a bloke 
best wishes to you all and good luck 
stevei1


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## hola69

Hi everyone,

loved the post Stevie..and youre not JUST a bloke  

Jassie..greta to hear you are ok..we missed you and hope youre ok?

Aj..great post!

Love to you all xx


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## Penguin

Wow, I have just spent a bit of time reading through this thread and would like to congratulate all the abroadies for there very pertinent and appropriate responses to Olivia's post. What I find a little ironic is that Olivia's provocation has made us all feel even stronger about about what we are doing and there has not been a single response in support of her opinion.

Did anyone watch the programme on Channel 4 last evening? - life before birth.  I so enjoyed it and it made me realise just how happy I am that I have been so fortunate to have a Spanish lady kindly donate her eggs to me.  The fact that a baby can hear the mother's voice in the womb, share her feelings, have an awareness of her food taste etc has so excited me.  So Olivia, I am sooooo glad I did what I did and that this opportunity was available to me - a choice I took.

Many of us seems to have had our own set of complications in our lives, but we manage our way through these.  Olivia like you, I am of mixed identity. Biologically I am German/Dutch, but our family immigrated to South Africa when I was 14 months old.  I moved to the UK 5 years ago, where I met my DH who is 100% English.  I feel more South African than anything else as that was the culture I grew up in.  Just to add complication - my brother and I don't share the same biological father - his is Italian. Well my biological father adopted my brother at age 3.  The reason why we moved to South Africa, was that my parents preferred not to tell us about my brother's situation, until we were older and it was only once my brother announced his plan to live and work in Germany for a few years and the fear that he might find out from family there who knew about his situation that we were told.  Yes, he did find his Italian 'father' and I met him too - BUT he was very clear that has only ONE father the one that brought him up. He maintained contact for a few years - but this has now become very irregular.  My brother ironically met his South African wife in Germany, and they adopted a Russian baby and they now live in South Africa...... so you see Olivia, the fact that I have added a Spanish egg to the family equation (and who knows, this egg may be of mixed identity too) it makes very little difference to me and DH.  We plan to move to France in the next two years and if we stay there in the longterm, I am sure our little one will feel more French than anything else and that would not matter to us at all.

Olivia, I also wanted to point out to you, that like you, I had little choice. You see at 42 I do not have 5 years to wait for an English donor AND my consultant in the UK, who is  donor specialist encouraged me to go abroad, as she does not agree with recent change in the Law.  And like Stevie put so well, how we deal with the decisions we have made, will evolve, ie to tell or not to tell the child - while we may have decided what we plan to do, this may change due to circumstances as they present themselves.

Sorry for the very loooooong post - just wanted to add my support to everyone else here.  Olivia I am very pleased you have acknowledged that your post was insensitive and hope that you have noted that there is no room for provocation here. No-one thus far has supported your views.

Hope everyone is having a very pleasant Sunday.

Love Penguin


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## Andream

Hi everyone was just doing some reading up about the ongoing saga on the web and came across the following quote in response to the idea that we should tell children conceived through donor gamets of their origins

Meanwhile, leading sociologist and author of Paranoid Parenting, Dr Frank Furedi, believes the move is a symptom of misplaced emphasis on the importance of children knowing their "real" parents. "I think we are continually inciting children to be obsessed with their biological origin, rather than to think that who they are is more about what they have achieved and the community they are in," he says. 

I am neither vehemently one way or the other but I thought this was interesting and a viewpoint not often expressed

love to all
andrea


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## AlmaMay

Hi,

I heard about this thread when I was having lunch in London with some wonderful FFs on Friday.  There were 5 of us all brought together through this terrible disease of Infertility.  There was one English woman amongst us and we all agreed that our Swiss FF looked the most 'English'.  I am American (with Irish, Sicilian and Russian heritage) and our other FF's were Spanish and South African/French.

I wonder what time warp Olivia is living in.  I think the ladies and gent who have replied to Olivia have been very polite, intelligent and considered.  I think Olivia's views are borderline racists especially as she doesn't even seem to consider that there are women on this board from the UK that aren't just English but also Scottish Welsh and N. Irish not to mention all the other countries of the world that FFs come from.  The world does not contain genetically 'pure' people and the last mad man who wanted that is universally hated.  

Olivia, I noticed that the majority of your posts have been more of a 'campaigning' tone and even though you say that your post do not represent the views of DC Network you are happy to sign your posts 'Olivia DC Network'  I echo AJ's questioning your suitability as a representative of DC Network and I would also question your suitability to post on FF in such a blatant campaigning manner.  FF is a support network for people suffering from infertility.  DC Network has it's own forum and perhaps that might be a better place for your thoughts on the issue.

Almamay


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## olivia m

Dear all
I know it is seen as unforgivable for someone in the role I occupy at DCN to give vent to their own strong opinions, but I'm afraid I'm also a human being as well.  I'm not seeking sympathy, but can only say that whilst you were deeply upset by my original post, the reason for it was that I was deeply distressed by what I read on these boards.  It was COMPLETELY wrong of me to allow my own feelings to overcome my better judgement - I cannot apologise more for that and for offense and distress caused. However, I still believe that it is respectful to donor conceived people to be told about their conception and that they should have the CHOICE to have information about and potential contact with their donor - as most adopted people do. The other issues I raised all follow from that. Using donor conception for family creation means having to acknowledge that our children are different.  Different is not bad but it does mean an ongoing responsibility to recognise and address this difference as the child grows up.  Going abroad for a donor adds to this difference. There is more to explain.  This may be fine for the child or it may not.  We cannot know what our children's needs are going to be.  Loving parents in a loving home will give them a fantastic start and background, but it may not be enough for some. It certainly isn't for some of the donor conceived adults I know.  These are very painful things to think about and I am unclear whether this is the right forum for them. Probably not...but if not here..where?
Olivia


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## CRISPY

Dear Olivia

If you are "deeply distressed" by the content of these message boards I would suggest that you go elsewhere.  It is not appropriate for you to continue posting inflammatory posts on what is an incredibly supportive forum for those of us seeking treatment abroad. 

My DH and I have been through a lot of soul-searching as have most of the other couragious ladies on this thread before deciding on treatment abroad.  I do not consider myself deviant, missguided or ignorant about our treatment, and have carefully considered the "after" if I am fortunate to have a BFP

Children born "naturally" do not have the right to confirm who their biological parents are. The right to know who your biological parent is is not a right which most of the population has.  Estimates of uncertain parentage vary widely from one or two per cent to as much as 15 per cent of the general population. 

These children do not have the right to find out who their genetic farther is. The name on their birth certificate is their social father. If a child conceived through donor methods is to have the right to know who their genetic parents are, we should have a discussion about these children too.

Quote from consultant Dr Stewart Irvine (edinburgh royal infirmary)


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## Kasia

Dear Olivia,


Crispy and Almamay have made excellent points, as have all the other posters who have replied to your messages.

I would just like to add a couple of things.

1) It is not just ***what*** you say that has raised my hackles, Olivia, it is ***how*** you have said it. I think your tone has been perceived by many here as somewhat condescending. Unfortunately, that is not conducive to an open debate and does tend to turn people away, even if they might agree with you on some points (although I am not claming that they do). 

2) How can you expect to keep your own views separate from those of the DCN if you provide their URL in your signature? I believe you are a founder member of this organisation - isn't that right? To me it's as if Tony Blair were to come on this board and voice his concerns about donor conception, give his address at No. 10 and maybe the URL of the Labour Party website in his signature, and then claim that the 'the views expressed here are my own and not those of the Labour Party'. 

3) You say you are unclear about where you should be posting your opinions. I see you have written articles in various publications (The Guardian etc.). Please correct me if I am wrong. You don't seem to have had problems getting your views across in the past. So why now? And why not stick to the obvious forum for your ideas: the DCN, of which I believe you are a founding member.

4) You made the following statement in your last post: "I'm not seeking sympathy, but can only say that whilst you were deeply upset by my original post, the reason for it was that ***I was deeply distressed by what I read on these boards***." Could you please tell us exactly what you are so distressed about? And which boards are you referring to? You have made so many blanket statements without giving precise details. I personally find this extremely worrying. 

5) Moreover - as far as I am aware (I'm in Spain right now and don't have good access to the Internet) you have not answered all my questions. You said you wanted to create a debate, but you have not answered me properly. For example, you inferred that Polish immigrants were being exploited for their eggs in Spain. No details were given. I asked you to back up your claim and you did not. 

Finally, I would love to hear your views on the excellent point made by Crispy in her recent post. 

I love debating, believe me, but this involves addressing other people's points properly. And, from what I can see, Olivia, you have not done this on the Fertility Friends board yet. 



Kasia


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## AlmaMay

Here, here.  I second Kasia's post.  Olivia, could you please address her points and give specifics.  Rumours do us no good when making important decisions.  I had no idea you were a founder member of DC Network.  

I think the members of FFs, the founders and moderators of this site have been most generous with you.  I wonder if you would allow us to join DC Network's site and encourage your members to go abroad for treatment and not back it up with well explained reasons.  I wonder how long our posts will last on your site. Would you be as generous as FF has been to you and call us to account for our statements?  Or would you delete our posts? 

Please show us some respect for the respect shown to you.

Almamay


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## Lorna

These are my experiences. We wanted children, and ended up going to the USA to work with a surrogate, and an egg donor. The system is so open there. I walked into an agency, and said I wanted to meet my donor, and was welcomed with open arms. The agency has found that both donor, and recipient benefit from meeting, *before* donation, preferably before contract signing.
This agency has known for years, that in most cases, donor, and recipient should meet. There is a stack of research in the USA, that was published, years ago, that shows how beneficial completely open donation is. Yet, just about *every* government in the world, makes it illegal for donor, and recipient to meet. Maybe someone can explain to me: WHY?
Why are women not considered capable of making their own decisions? Not just whether they should be allowed to chose, if they want to donate anonymously or completely openly; but also how many embryos to transfer; or whether they want to go for a risky procedure like ooplasmic transfer? Men can chose to do ICSI with TESE, which is also a risky procedure, but women are deemed incapable of understanding things, and so ooplasmic transfer is banned.
We are treated as children. Governments know what is best for us, and so they make the rules. These rules/laws, are in our best interest.. That is what I will tell my 4 year old twins, when I take them for their MMR booster jabs.
And like children, we are considered incapable of handling money. IMO, compensation should be fair, and donors should be able to claim *all* their expenses.
For men, a donation takes a few hours, for which they get 15 pounds. That compensation was fair when it was set, but is now way too low, and few if any men will donate for that fee. Besides, if men want to give up a few hours to do something worthwhile, they can volunteer at all sorts of places, with the long term complications, of having to deal with a child turning up in 20 years time.
And men get their expenses. Sperm donation is a sort of do anytime thing, so men can arrange their schedules, and donate at a time that is convenient to them.
Women have to be committed to the process for a minimum of 4 months, maybe a lot longer. The have to eat healthily. No alcohol, no medicines, no sex.... They have to get up early to be at a clinic to have blood drawn. The injections are painful. The drugs have awful side effects, not just now, but, may cause them problems, in the future as well. The operation puts a woman out of action for 48 hours, etc. etc. And for this women also get 15 pounds. It is insult.
And to add injury to insult, egg donors rarely get all their expenses. Egg donors must follow a rigid schedule. They often lose out on wages. They have to be at a clinic early in the morning so they may have to pay for overnight childcare, plus taxis. At egg collection, egg donors, undergo an operation, that puts them out of action for 48 hours. It would be useful to be able to order in take out meals, but the cap on expenses means women can't claim their lost wages, plus childcare, plus taxis fares for their family, etc., never mind the take out pizza.
On a time for time basis egg donors should get at least 750 pounds, but with all the other risks, and stresses on their lives, it should be a 1000 pounds. The sperm donation fee of 15 pounds needs to be trebled to 50 pounds to attract more sperm donors, so we need to treble the egg donation fee to 3000 pounds.
That is fair compensation.
Ah the women should be self sacrificing argument. 
Let's sidestep that argument for a moment. Suppose you run a small business, that is growing rapidly. You need someone to head up a new section. Are you going to promote the person, who is more than able to do the job? Or the person who is so brilliant, that everything they, touch turns to success? BUT.......
The person who is more than able to do the job, is in line for a Queen's award, because of all the charity work they do. And the brilliant person, is not only cheating on their spouse, but cheating on the person, they are cheating with, and has been dismissed as finance officer of a local voluntary organisation, because of financial irregularities.
Who would I promote?
The person, who is more than able to do the job. If I promoted the brilliant person, I would worry that they may use their prodigious intelligence, to defraud my company. I don't feel you can subdivide people into little bits. And I would argue, that if someone is dishonest in their private life, there is a good chance they will be dishonest in other parts of their life, and give my small business a bad reputation.
So getting back to the women should be self sacrificing argument........ Society says egg donors should do something for nothing. Does that mean all women should do things for nothing, like their jobs, while men get paid well? Do we think women should naturally put themselves out for other people? So as a woman, you don't mind always being the one who makes everyone tea, does the photocopying, or empties the communal dishwasher? Do we think women should always put others first? So that if there are redundancies, women should be the first to go? Do you expect the same of men?
I don't believe you can subdivide people, whether it is a brilliant person, a woman or a man? They are either responsible or not.

It is incredibly easy to blame the women who go abroad, but doesn't the HFEA have a responsibility for the situation or the government, who created the laws(Maggie Thatcher) or the ones who maintain the laws(Tony Blair)?
I have watched programs like the medical disaster programs. Some nurse diluted a medicine with potassium chloride, instead of saline(sodium Chloride) solution. The patient died. The nurse was struck off. The hospital authorities - who designed a pharmacy, where saline ampoules, a harmless drug, and potassium chloride ampoules, a very dangerous drug, were stored in the same basket - got off scott free.
I watched another program on the Paris Metro crash, that killed 58 people.. The train driver was jailed for years. Yes, he his actions contributed to the crash, but so did the things that the train designers, track designers, those responsible for training, etc. did. Why weren't they jailed as well?
Because it is easy to pin the blame on the most helpless, when in fact it is the system that is to blame.
Amies was interested, in finding a European clinic that allowed the recipient to see a picture of the donor. http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41332.0.html One of the replies was from Ruth who said
>All of Spain won't show pics to protect donor anonymity
And I wanted to know why it was necessary to protect the anonymity of donors. Maybe it is just me, but every time I hear how governments want to "protect" the infertile, I get this sudden image of how the "Taliban" protected the population of Afghanistan.
Another reason given by governments, is that the laws were created in our best interests. Well my donor would *not* have donated, *unless* she could meet the recipient. And considering how many more donors there are than recipients in the USA, she could have found herself never donating. She wanted to know who Lorna, and my hubby were. She didn't want her daughter marrying my son, because neither knew about the other. At least her child would know. She decided open donation was in the best interests of her family, yet governments all over Europe say she is wrong.
How dare governments assume they know what is best?
So we have a society, that blames the women/couples desperate for a baby, rather than the HFEA's mismanagement, that has caused the problem. And no one blames the government who created the laws, under which the HFEA operates.

Personally I would like to see California style laws introduced to the UK. That is laws based on research, published in peer reviewed Scientific journals, and laws where the users of those laws are consulted.
Back in 1985, when the surrogacy laws were passed, no one in the world knew the best way to surrogacy. So I am prepared to give the government the benefit of the doubt, and say they tried their best. But by 1990, when the HFEA Act was passed, lots of research had been published n the USA, about what worked, and what didn't. So why wasn't it incorporated in the legislation?
And by 1996, when the 1997 review of surrogacy, http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/01/43/73/04014373.pdf was started, so much research on infertility had been published, that researchers were finding it difficult to come up with an original angle to do research on. John Major's government selected a panel of "experts" to review the law; a professor of law, medical ethics, and psychology. And at least one of these "experts" was publicly on record as saying surrogacy should be banned. Why weren't surrogates, intended parents etc., consulted?
Tony Blair was elected in a hail of glory, because he promised to do so much for women. So shouldn't he have started the review again, and done a more thorough job, instead of just publishing, in Oct 1998, the existing review document? And shouldn't his government have made sure all that research was incorporated in a new surrogacy law?

Many organisations try to influence the government. Organisations like the Christian Medical Fellowship. http://www.cmf.org.uk/ have enormous influence with the press/government. And they have some interesting views. 
Normally laws only apply to the country, in which a crime occurs. But for very serious crimes, the UK has something called extra territorial jurisdiction. This means, if a British Citizen was to commit mass murder in China, they could be tried for that crime in the UK. But the Christian Medical Fellowship believes extra territorial jurisdiction should be applied to those who go abroad for treatment. point383 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmsctech/7/7i.pdf
So according to the Christian Medical Fellowship, my husband, and I should serve long prison sentences for the what we did in the USA........And all those who go to Spain, to find an egg donor should also be jailed.........
No one wonder things are in such a mess in the UK. They are marginally better in the USA, but even there people are trying to control women.
In the USA, http://www.infertileworld.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=169&Itemid=1
Republican Bob Stump, is worried about vulnerable young women burdened by student loans, selling their eggs in order to pay off their student debts. Considering all the counselling, education about the process, etc., women in the USA get, *before* they are allowed to sign a contract, I would be surprised, if any woman could claim, they didn't know what they were getting into.
And besides, if he is so worried, why doesn't he raise taxes so that *all * students have their college fees paid, and receive a grant. That would solve the problem.
And no on comments, when sperm donors advertise their sperm on the internet for 1000 dollars, many, many times the going rate for Sperm, but they do get upset, when women donate their eggs for 10,000 dollars, twice the 5000 dollar compensation normally offered. 
And what will happen, if Republican Bob Stump gets his proposed new law passed, in Arizona, to limit payment to donors. Well the donors will just donate in the next door state. And women/couples, will have to travel out of state to get the treatment they need. No one seems to care about their suffering.
And what do highly intelligent, young, European egg donors do now? Well they hop on a plane to the USA, and donate their eggs there. Which would you do? Donate your eggs for a minimum payment of 5000 dollars, plus an all expenses paid trip to the USA? or donate your eggs in a UK clinic, and end up having to pay for the privilege of dong it?
And, meanwhile, European couples, suffer, because of the lack of donors. And politicians go on about falling birth rates....
Unbelievable!
I have read everything I can on infertility, and, IMO, infertility laws are about the control of women. Isn't it about time we recognised, women are responsible adults, capable of making their own decisions, and formulate laws based on that premise?
Lorna.

This post contains unconfirmed links and information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## valie

Olivia,

I have just read your post and am quite outraged!

You say you intended to be provacative. *HOW DARE YOU!!* The purpose of this website is to lend support to people in a very difficult situation. If you can not do this then you should not be posting here. You do not have the right to be provacative. You do have the right to ask questions/express curiosity whilst at the same time showing courtesy but you have no right to provoke *ME* . How dare you question the decisions I have made with my husband in trying to deal with a very personal difficult situation. You are assuming you know better, DROP THE SUPERIORITY COMPLEX! You obviously have very poor inter-personal skills, how would you like it if I questioned your abilities as a mother? I wouldn't dream of doing so because I have more sense than you and understand that it is not my place to do so.

As for bringing up a child with dual-hetitage, what planet are you on? This is not a baby we are talking about, not even an embryo but *an egg*. An egg does not have a culture/heritage. It does have genetic material from the mother but these are physical characteristics not a heritage. An egg does not have a wish to be Spanish/Polish. In my humble opinion which I would not enforce on anyone else, "life" begins when the embryo implants in the womb and a pregnancy is created. At this point there is the potential for a human being.

The way you *assume * things is quite unbearable. How dare you assume anything about personal choices I have made. Again, you have no right to do so. All of the women I have met on this site truly want a baby and would give that baby all the love and stability he/she would need. This is by far the most important thing when bringing up a child. If you are so concerned with the well-being of the child why are you not concentrating on all the children born out of unwanted pregnancy or abused children?

Many of the girls here have posted questions which you seem not to have answered. Have you grown tired of the "debate" just because you haven't persuaded everyone you're right? You have come across as egotistical, patronising and condescending. Perhaps you could have begun a debate if you had not adopted this attitude. Maybe you don't know everything after all?!

For the record I do not intend to tell any future child their origins, simply that we needed help with conception and had ivf. I am fully aware many other women have a different viewpoint which is entirely their prerogative. Everyone makes their own personal choice and does what is right for them. If necessary, the child could prove their dad really is their dad as it will be his sperm. I will have the ability to prove I gave birth to him/her. I come from a very old-fashioned community in Ireland where any unusual origins would make the child stand out. As far as I'm concerned my child will know their origin ie that they were created (with a lot of effort) by their 2 loving parents who wanted them very much. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

I can't help wondering about your own children. You say children must know of their origins/heritage but yours have no idea who their father is. Isn't this a bit hypocritical? It almost sounds as if you regret your choice to use an anonymous sperm donor. You also say this was the only choice open to you, well this is the only choice open to us if we want a baby.

Have you considered that you would have more influence over people if you were able to display an open mind and were more tolerant of a persons's own right to choose?

To use your own words I'm sorry if this is offensive but it is only meant to be provacative! If you can't take the heat, maybe you shouldn't be in this particular kitchen!

I applaud everyone for speaking up on this thread!

Valie


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## valie

Olivia,

One further point. You say we exploit girls who are poor and are forced to sell their eggs, how ridiculous!!  If it was a kidney or other important organ then yes, that would be exploitation. However a young healthy girl will have no problems in later life because she has donated some eggs. A healthy girl has more eggs than she will ever need and all the donors are fully tested to ensure they have no problems. 

I will be using a donor from Spain and there, I believe, the culture is that they are proud of donating eggs. It is more common there and they believe strongly in the family so they feel they have done a good deed by donating. This is an attitude I am very grateful for and fully applaud because it is a wonderful thing these girls are doing. 

You are simply making assumptions again!!  

Valie


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## alanelaine

Oh dear Olivia, what a time you've let yourself in for!

Well, I'm not going to kick you as you appear to be down already but I do believe that you have shown poor judgement in your decision to post on this support group. You realise this yourself and your more recent posts are less antagonistic.

The issues you have raised are not new to us here and if you look through the threads you'll find that they have been debated extensively and that there are many who are torn between telling any children about this process and also many who regret the anonymity issue.

For us, we have made our informed decision and we shall stick with it.

We're Scottish (bit of Irishness too) so we don't have to worry about how English our children would be - couldn't resist it! 

However, in Scotland we have an expression that "_we're all Jock Tamson's bairns_" which loosely means that Scots accept you as Scottish irrespective of your roots, race, religion or creed. Quite simply we are all privileged to bear the Scottish nationality with pride.

Don't get me wrong though, we're not your SNP types; we're equally proud to be British and fond of being European.

We also have adoption within our relationship so we have had first hand experience of the decision to seek out biological lineage. We didn't feel the need.

We are surprised that you had no choice but to accept anonymous sperm donation as we understand that couples could specify their donors if they could find friends or family willing to assist. In our situation this would have been our preferred route for egg donation but, regrettably, we have no relatives who fit the correct criteria in the UK and most of our friends are either too old or have not yet started their own families. We're not judging (or provoking) merely passing comment.

Our main issue with your original post and subsequent clarifications is your suggestion of coercion of the poor. This has been touted in the media frequently but appears to be wholly groundless. Is there any tangible evidence of this?

Finally, I consider it somewhat reckless of you to footer your posts indicating that you represent the DCN and then state that your views are merely personal but also implying that they are consistent with the DCN - most confusing. We have no problem with the DCN existing as a support network for those who want to tell their child about the donor but do not consider that the mere existence of such a group is sufficient reason for attacking those who don't or can't do the same for their children.

"_A man's a man for a' that_"


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## safarigirl

Olivia

I have responded to you previously, and i am glad that you have come back to post again, and hopefully to read some of the responses.  I am glad that flippy has put this as a seperate post as at least here, whoever wants to add to the debate can, and the general abroadies thread where we natter at lenght can be left for that.

I guess i still wish to add more to my previous post(s).  Perhaps what angered me the most and what i said to you initially was the assumptions that you seemed to make so easily about the people, myself included on this thread.  I cannot tell you how much this annoyed me, this and your patronising tone of the person who had all the answers and us who were doing wrong.  In many ways your post was one of rightness.  You seemed more interested in being right, than in compassion and finding a way to reach out to us, to start this debate that you wished to.   I found this hard to stomach.

Perhaps what stands out for me is that those of us who have arrived at this decision have done it through a long road - mine has been of 3 miscarriages and the realisation that donor eggs is the best change for my DH and i to have a child.    I have gotton to know the women on this thread, and there is a collection of those of us who can fall pregnant but still not have a baby, to those of who cant fall pregnant, husbands who dont have sperm, to cancer survivors and the list goes on.  So this choice you speak of us is perhaps not really looked at - some of the women on this thread dont really have a choice but to be far more left-field in their choices - and i applaud them for the courage they take.  Was my decision to use a donor done lightly.  No.  Did i think about it - more than you could ever know.  Of course my child (should i be so lucky to have one) will have to deal with that.  But need I add that most children have something to deal with - i know children of alcoholic parents, abuse, neglect and one friend whose parents committed suicide toghether.   Let me tell you that these legacy's have not been great ones! They have had to get over this, and most of them are hardworking fun individuals, who despite all of this have come through and are now succesful inidividuals.  All children have a destiny, and a life lesson, and a child of mine that choses to come to me via donor egg will as much be chosing that destiny as i am chosing theirs.  I dont wish to really debate my spiritual beliefs, but i will be telling my child of their origins, and i believe with the right spriitual and emotional guidance they will live with it.    Your assumption of "will we tell" was annoying to me as this is something i have thought about so much - and every decision i have taken i have thought about a child that may result.    If a child of mine battles with this, then we will have to deal with this - i have seen too much in life of people's lifes to know that most people deal with the hand they were given.   If the only thing a child of mine has to deal with is this issue, then i will have done a damm fine job at parenting. My destiny was to have parents who were emotionally distant from me, and although i looked exactly like my brothers and parents from an early age i kept asking if i was adopted as i couldnt work out why i always felt so distant and misplaced.  I searched in many ways for my real family for a long time - so there i was bioligically my parents but feeling more like a donor child, than a donor child of mine will ever feel.  Interesting, but i digress.  Like i dont ask you your religious or political beliefs i am just mentioning this for interest.  You see, Olivia, we are different and complex women on this thread, who have shared with you so much about ourselves, yet you seemed to package us all under a neat heading of your own creation that seems to bear nothing in relation to the reality of our lives and decisons.

The next issue that "annoyed" me was your assumption that i was using an overseas clinic as it was cheap.   Although my husband is british i am not, there is no ways the NHS will be able to help me - my choice as a non british person is to go overseas.   This in a way touches on your heritage point - my parents are of british and dutch heritage, i was born in south africa and feel more south african than anything else.  My husband is a mixture of danish, south african and english - so what are we exactly?  Me, i have always just seen us as - to quote pink floyd "two lost souls living in a fish bowl, year after year".  

Anyway back to the point -  let me tell you my quest for a child has been anything but cheap.  I am using a reputable clinic that i trust.   I researched this clinic before going to it, made an initial appointment before getting a donor,  I have met the doctors, nurses, embroyologists and trust them implicitely.  I have never once on these threads had anyone allude to where is a cheap clinic.  Most of us are looking for the best way to maximise our chances of having a baby, and look for clinics with results.   This usually goes with good practice.  I have always hated abuse and that you would in some way label me as someone abusing a young person for their eggs cut deep.  Perhaps, like Kasia has said as well, if you know of clinics that are abusing young women let us know.  I will be the first to lead the charge against a clinic like this.

You also say in your response that you were worried by what you read on this thread - i read this thread daily and i am not sure what you mean.  This is our haven, mine at least.  I do not have anyone to share this journey with - people get tired after the second miscarriage you see, so this has become a personal journey for me - but here i live, i laugh and I am a person who can share my journey.  I have rejoiced with women on this thread and cried for their pain.  I feel deep love and empathy for all of us on this thread and i respect each and everyones' individual journeys and decisions - that is theirs to make, like most of what we do in life.  I am not sure what you have found so worrying here - but this is our haven, our safe spot, our comfort, please know that - without this website I am not sure i would have got through my third miscarriage and found the strength to go on this new road of using a donor.  

If you are going to make assumptions, i think you will have gathered we want information or statistics, not general statements.


I must also agree with kasia that you sign your name with DCN - then say you are not speaking on their behalf.  I think this inconsistency is clear.  I have as a matter of interest read most of the DCN website, as part of my journey i think i have googled and read just about anything about donor conception that there is.  

Okay, i think that about sums it up, and allows me to close this debate as well ......


----------



## safarigirl

i should have said close this debate for myself .....


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## emma73

I have just taken a minute to browse through the recent posts from olivia - ALL seem to be urging women to think carefully before going abroad, using a donor etc - you posted on this topic as long ago as 2004 - here it is. . .

"Just a word of caution about egg donation in Spain or anywhere outside of the UK.  PLEASE think about the long-term implications for your child about what you are doing.  What is the story you will tell them?  How are they likely to feel about having a part Spanish cultural heritage (if both parents are English or have other cultural backgrounds).  What if they would like more information or to be in touch with their donor?  Are there opportunities for this?  Genetics are not important for the good parenting that all children need, but everyone has the right to know their genetic heritage and DI conceived adults have let us know very clearly that genetic roots DO matter.  I know it is quicker to go the Spanish route, but please do not forget that a child soon becomes an adult...and adults have needs to know where they come from.
Olivia M
Mother of two DI conceived young people"

FF is a web site for people going through the same thing to support each other. Clearly with two older children you do not need any support from us through treatment - so why do you keep posting the same thing - you sound like a stuck record. Its so very insulting to assume that the women on these threads are not capable of making their own decisions. 

I myself concieved though Donor sprem in 2004 - I was aware of the change in the law and while my son will not be able to trace his biological father any future children I may have will be able to. I will tell my child about his donor father - but that is MY CHOICE - and I expect it to be respected by those who will keep their childs donor origins to themselves as much as I respect their choice. Only the family involved can decide what is the right thing for them, thats something you would do well to remember.  

Save your preaching - go back to the DCN!

Emma


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## Jennifer

Afternoon All 

After a lot of thought and discussion I have decided to lock this topic.

I just want to say before I do that the women on our FF Going Abroad for Tx Board are some of the most fantastic, courageous and supportive women I have come across and I am proud to ‘know’ them all.

Whether to tell our children about the facts surrounding their conception is a debate that will go on, and rightfully so, as new people join the board and need help in making this decision for themselves.  

However, nobody on FF has the right to assume or criticise anybody elses decision in this regard.

Equally, nobody here has to justify themselves or their decisions to go abroad for treatment or indeed to use donated eggs, sperm or embryos.  

Lastly I would like to quote FFs statement at the top of each and every web page which states "We are a UK based self help community, making a positive difference in the lives of those experiencing the pain of infertility and celebrating the joys when it is overcome"

Love and Luck to all the wonderful women we have here on FF 

Jennifer xx xx



If anybody would like to contact Olivia to further this discussion, she can be contacted here:
www.dcnetwork.org
[email protected]


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## JHB

Hi my name is tracey just had a recent failure on icis in england went to the consultant and he said my eggs are good quality and my estrogen levels are fine. Asked him about DE and he said he it would only increase my chances by 2% have been with my partner for 9 years. I was pregnant but had to have a termination because of medical reasons my baby had edwards syndrome. The problem would appears my partners sperm is unable to break through my eggs. Going to IVI valencia for a consultation in June still had three failed IUI with clomid for failed IVF and one failure of ICIS. Not sure to use my eggs because of my age or ask for donor eggs for a better chance of sucess. Any advise would be great I am 38 years of age and still not sure what to do. If anyone has been to IVI clinic in valencia I would be grateful for your advise and comments on the clinic. On both attempts of IVF and ICIS has two grade two embryo placed back in but still no luck. However on the first IVF did not get fertilization immediately and I the cells were not that big. On the second attempt with ICIS had 6 to 8 cell but still not joy. Would like to ask for your advise


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## casey

hi tracey - so sorry to hear about your baby it must have been so hard for you and your partner

im sorry i can't give the advice or the answers you need - i hope the drs at IVI can advise you - you could try asking on the abroadies thread if anyone has been to IVI valencia and i know some girls have done IVf abroad with their own eggs so they may be able to advise you better than i can 

the girls are lovely on the abroadies thread and you will be made very welcome and get lots of support there

bye for now
caseyxx


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## Femail

Hi Tracey,
unfortunately I can't give you any advice on whether to use your own eggs or DE.
However I may be able to put your mind at rest with IVI Valencia. 
I had my initial appointment at IVI Valencia in April and was very nervous about going. Although I had been to Valencia before on Holiday, I think it was the whole treatment abroad issue that made me nervous. I have to say I found the staff very friendly and professional. They were most welcoming and provided me with all the information I needed for my treatment.
In April there was a 2 month waiting list for DE and hence I start my treatment/drugs in approx 3 weeks time. 

Good luck in Sunny Valencia and enjoy the city, it's great.

Femail


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## Bangle21

Hi Tracey

I am so sorry about all you've been through - I can't imagine what you've both been through.

Like you, I was advised to use my own eggs and only go down the egg donation route as a last resort.  However, with so many failures behind us, we felt it was time to try something "different" as there'd be no point doing the same thing again.  It is hard to try and imagine "someone elses eggs" but I think I've accepted that it would be mine and DH baby.

As far as IVI Valencia goes, I can't help you there but have just returned from IVI Barcelona and we were very impressed.  The clinic is absolutely state of the art, immaculate and the staff are lovely.  there is an interpreter with you all the time and she really made us feel at ease.  

Its such a difficult decision but at the end of the day, egg donation is right for us.  And who knows, maybe if it worked - it might "kick" start a future pregnancy with our own eggs.  who knows.  Both babies would be so special but for different reasons.

I really hope you come to a decision soon.  I think once you've made a decision, it's alot easier to relax.  

Good luck huni
All my love,
Gillxo


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## Old Timer

Hi Girls
I don't often post though I do read often and have found some of the threads very useful.

I'm with IM and started the patches on Thursday.  I was just wondering how long peoples donors were stimming for?  I guess it will be the same sort of time as I used to but was just interested to know.

Got my scan next Wednesday after a complete nightmare  Am from Gloucestershire and trying to arrange a scan locally as a private patient is proving difficult after being told it would be easy!  Unless I hear different on Monday I will be travelling to Nottingham for my scan.  Anyone else from Gloucestershire thats managed to get a scan locally?

Love from
OT x


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## Louise999

Hi OT

Hope I'm not too late to help.  I'm from Bristol and got my scan done at the Bath Assisted Conception Clinic.  The cost was £100.  The BUPA Womens Health Centre in Bristol will also do scans but they are more expensive at about £200 a time. 

Good luck!

Louise


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## Old Timer

Hi Louise
Thanks for replying. I've sorted it out finally, am going to the private hospital in Gloucester but they are charging £213! Hopefully I won't need a 2nd one but if I do I'll try Bath, thanks for that.

Love from
OT x[br]Posted on: 19/06/06, 17:36Hi Louise
I've just noticed you've had a BFP from IM. Congratulations!

I have my scan today and am hoping everything will be OK and won't need another one. 
Have had to email IM to try to find out when day 1 was for donor as my DH's gran has died and the funeral is next Wednesday. Think we could be flying out around then so will have to think of an excuse as to why we will miss the funeral, keeping tx secret as its easier if it fails. Timing couldn't be better, his g-aunt's funeral was the day before we flew out for our first appt in April.

Hope all goes well for you.
OT x


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## Louise999

Hi OT

Fitting treatment around "real life" is difficult, isn't it?  I had to miss my DH's gran funeral last year as I was having IVF.

Not sure where you are in Gloucestershire but there quite a few of us IM abroadies who live around the Bristol and Wiltshire area and we try and meet up at least once a month, usually in South Gloucestershire.  Do PM me if you'd like to know more.

Louise


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## Old Timer

Hi Louise
Might take you up on the meet, will get this cycle out of the way first.  I live just off junction 13 of M5, Stonehouse.

IM think we should be OK for the funeral but will know more on Monday.  I take it they do transfers at weekends

Have another scan on Monday, now on 2 patches.

Ot x


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## Louise999

Hi OT

In answer to your question, yes IM do do transfers at the weekend.  Good luck for your scan on Monday.  I had to double up on patches too - it seems fairly common to be honest. I think that out of the 5 of us locally who are now pg through IM, only 1 got away with single patches in the end.

I have my first scan this afternoon so keep your fingers crossed for me!

Louise


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## Old Timer

Hi Louise
Hope all went well today, am keeping everything crossed for you.

It seems most ladies end up having 2 scans and doubling up on the patches. Its good to hear there are 5 ladies locally who are pg from IM, gives me hope. A friend of mine got pg on her 1st go and another on her 2nd, well fet from 1st go. I've been pg before but mc'd at 12 weeks and have immune issues, just had ivig today.

OT x[br]Posted on: 23/06/06, 20:48Hi louise
Hope all is OK.
Love from
OT x


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## Marina

Good Luck with your scan Louise 

OT good to hear the BFPS at IM, we are hoping to go on the refund programme, after giving its loads of consideration, we both felt it was worth the risk to us, have any of your friends gone on it?

Have nice weekend all 

Love

Marina


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## Old Timer

Hi Girls

Louise, hope all is OK, please let us know when you can. x

Marina, yes it is encouraging isn't it.  One of my friends has done the refund programme, got a BFP on her 1st Fet and is about 7-8weeks now.  We looked at the refund programme but there is no way I could do up to 3 fresh and however many fets in a year, just wouldn't be possible for DH & I to fit it in with our jobs.  If the success rates were as low as they are in the UK then I may have been more tempted but then I guess that is why a refund programme isn't available in the UK, they would be paying back too much money!  Also taking into account that I've been pg, mc'd at 12 weeks, I'm hoping I won't need too many goes 

I should find out tomorrow when I am likely to be going out for ET, or at least whether we can go to the funeral on Wednesday.  Getting exciting now!

Enjoy Sunday
Love
OT x


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## druzy

This is just a question about lining .  I'm going out to Isida in Ukraine on Friday, for transfer probably next week.  I've been on progynova nearly 2 weeks and since sunday have been taking 3 a day, ie 6mg.  Last week at first scan the lining was only 5mm but triple line.  Now it's 8mm but not triple line anymore.  My uk doctor says its getting past it's best and I should get on with it but of course transfer won't be til next week.  Just wondered if anyone else has experienced this?  Does it always have to be triple line or can it get back to that?  Isida get you out there a couple of days before collection so they can adjust meds so maybe they will do something?  Anyone else had something like this?
thanks
Druzy x


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## three_stars

Dear Druzy,

I am sorry no one has answered to you; maybe no one has an answer?  I have not heard of the triple line disappearring so fast.  Maybe a bit of research on Google would give you an answer.  I started straight away with 6 mg estradiol and had 4.8 mm on day 7 scan.  I gather you started with 2, then 4, then 6? Generally the best day for ET is teh day you would have ovulated ( if you were not on estradiol) + the number of day sof the embryo age. So usually about day 15-18.

I forgot to even ask about the triple line.. I thought it shows up closer to mid cycle.  So thanks for reminding me to ask on Friday.  
As far as your dr. telling you to get on with it... normally the clinics wasnt 8 or 9 mm for a good lining before ET.  But it is true the lining can go to long and get "burned", also which I think happened to me before with a transfer on day 21.  That is why I do not really like egg share if it means not doing ET on the best day for you.

There is a dedicated thread of women on conceivingabroad on the yahoo groups that go to ISIDA.  BUt as you are now so close to ET I would think it would be best to speak straight away with your clinic to get the best answer about what to do.

Not sure I have been any help to you but at least I bumped you up and maybe someone else will have an answer.
Good luck
Bonnie 
b123


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## druzy

Thanks Bonnie. 

I'm on the Yahoo board already and no one seems to know much about it.  Are you on there too?  Is it really relevant what cycle day you "would" be on when taking HRT and having been down regged.  I thought the HRT overides your natural cycle?  At some clinics like IVI in Spain I believe they keep you on it for up to 3 months before transfer?  My understanding from my UK consultant is that the lining does have a time when it is at it's best and then starts to deteriorate - even when taking HRT eg oestradiol (sorry can't really spell it).  So I just don't know how these clinics coordinate and control when the donor is ready with when the receipient is at triple line 8mm +.  I think it's all a bit hit and miss and that actually they can't control it.  Some people are at triple line at that point and some aren't.

I have googled it all and it seems there are 3 types of lining; triple line, one that is semi triple line (ie with "bits" of it) which I think I have at the moment, and one that they call "solid" ie on the ultrasound no lines or bits of lines show at all.  I think research has shown that highest pregnancy rates are with triple line, some get away with it with the second type and with solid it basically doesn't work!  FAB.

On the yahoo board people seem to be telling me that ISIDA can prescribe some drugs when I get there but I very much doubt they can take it back to triple line again.

God, I thought normal IVF with own eggs was bad enough now I've got something new to worry about.  The trouble is my UK consultant drip feeds me a bit of info and then I get all worried.  It would probably be better if I knew nothing at all.

I did tell ISIDA what he had said and sent them the ultrasound pictures because they had told me to have this scan but they didn't reply to any of my questions at all - just said stay on 3 a day and come here on Friday and see you soon.  So I though it better not to pursue it on the email because it would just get confusing.  I guess I'll just have to see what they do when I get there.  If they say it's not good enough then we will just have to freeze the embryos and go back again later for FET.

What treatment are you doing at the moment?  I've seen  your posts before, are you going to Greece or have I imagined that?

many thanks
Druzy x


----------



## three_stars

HI Druzy, 

Well you seem to have gotten a lot of things figured out for now.  I have not been on the yahoo group for ages... just could not keep up and a lot of new people had come on, old ones dropped off.  Plus I started on there ages ago when I was looking into DE in Ukraine but then ended up in Greece.  
I am trying hard to get the lining to build up now and friday will know if I am going out for DE next week or not.  My previous donor is available to me so I am anxious to go but will cancel if the lining is not good enough.  I had 3 miscarriages/ chem pgs the last 3 cycles... so do not ( in my case) want to go ahead unless I know the lining is right.  

I guess if you already have tickets and the clinic says it will be ok I would likely go ahead out there as well.  I do not think it sounds like you have been waiting too long yet.  But I can understand your being anxious. 
And I also thought going to DE would be easier but in many ways it is as bad.  Getting your body to be in the right timing with the donor seems challenging at best.  BUt obviously it works out for many people.
Good luck to you.
Bonnie 
b123


----------



## druzy

Good luck in Greece this time bonnie xx


----------



## three_stars

Thanks Druzy,

I went for a scan today back to the original place ( scan center mostly doing PG and IVf scans) and she says day 14 my lining is only 7.8!
The previous scans with her were 
day 7= 4.8
day 11= 6.7 then day 12 I went back to a gyn that scans although he always seems less technical about it and the machine is older but he said it was 8.7 so Dr A and I were very excited and decided to go ahead with EC and fertilization on Sunday.  So know I am perplexed of who is giving me the right measurements.  I have not yet ovulated so and only started progesterone last night so I doubt the lining would go down?  ( anyone reading this knows something, please speak up)

Any way ... now I am a bit stressed again.  Also as I have not yet ovulated but i do have a lot of pain in that ovary( enough that i needed to put a hot water bottle on it and stand up on the bicylce when i went over any bumps!)  and it is a whopping 22.3x16 follicle so should "open" any time.  I am not used to having any pain with ovulation from the ovaries when not being stimmed... anyone else have this?  I am not down regulated , just on estradiol. 

I meant also to tell you, DRuzy, what she said about the triple line.  She said there is type A, B, C.  A is the full triples showing, B is just before ovulation which is what mine shows now so I think that was what yours was and the c is ofter and the lines go away.  SO I think you were in the right timing and will be OK.  

When is ET scheduled?  Mine is for Wednesday Day 3 but I would have liked to go day 4... she just prefers day 3 as she says if we go to day 5 blasts they are more likely to get hurt when doing ET.  Also she has always had great embryos from this donor.  So  I hope all goes great this time.  If not I am going to absolutely be lost... my DR as well as she said " what can be wrong now?  There is nothing we have overlooked or not dealt with."  Now it is just winning the lotto so to speak.

Good luck to us both.

bonnie
b123


----------



## Marina

Hiya

Interesting subject, I remember on my last cycle which was successful my scan showed the triple line, I will say that clinics vary about the thickness required, mine isn't as bothered by thickness more blood flowing correctly, my lining on the day of transfer was 6.5 so its not always needed the thicker lining, GOOD LUCK to you both I am on yahoo groups too 

Love

marina


----------



## druzy

Hi Bonnie and Marina

Just thought I'd let you know the end of the story!  I had transfer on Wednesday 13th - so if you ended up doing it on that day too Bonnie we are the same.  I hope all went well for you and you sorted out what the pain was.  Were you taking progynova or was it a natural cycle?  I didn't think you ovulated if you were taking progynova and if it was that painful could it have been a non functional cyst?  Here I go, amateur doctor again.  Anyway, hope you're doing OK.

Thanks for the info re your experience Marina, it's true different clinics say different things.

ANYWAY, as you can imagine I was pretty nervous by the time I got to Isida about the lining but kind of resigned to the fact that I might be sent straight home again.  I had the scan and the doctor said everything was fine, I saw it briefly on the screen and it did look like it had gone back to triple line again!  All very odd.  Anyway, she said she was glad she had stuck to her plan and not listened to what my UK doctor had said although I could tell that they were understandably a bit rattled by it.  So I don't know if it went back to triple line again, cos it certainly didn't look like it was 5 days prior when my UK doctor gave me the print outs, or whether different machines see different things, if anything, Isida scanners looked a lot clearer than the UK ones.  But by that time I didn't care!  I was just glad that they were happy with everything and going ahead.  The Isida doctor also said that they had had a Swiss doctor over recently and he had said that triple line matters less  than overall thickness!  It changes all the time.  Anyway she measured it at 7.8 on the Friday, didn't put the medication up, and I started the progesterone on the Monday.

They collected 15 eggs, 13 fertilised, 3 went back at day 2 and they said they were very good quality.  Although if I've heard that once I've heard it a thousand times in the UK with my four IVFs with own eggs but inshallah.

I'm on day 5 of 2ww now and it's hell, no real symptoms - I know it may be a bit early but having young eggs you feel like you should have some good stonking symptoms early on.  Trying to keep my pecker up but it's tough, as we all know and I'm getting heartily sick of this game.

Good luck to you Bonnie, let us know how you got on.

Druzyxx


----------



## three_stars

HI Druzy,

I have been updating on the abroadies thread.  yes we are exactly in synch.  I did ET on the 13th and the lining was about the same as yours.  You may have a point about a cyst or such as something new and dark was seen on the screen before I went out for ET but it was still outisde the endo wall.  I have a largish fibroid there as well that has been for years... not sure what this new thing is but they said it would not effect IVF... but could it be casuing pain not sure.  

I finally went with the Viagra although not as much as some have.  I found it gave me really bad headaches the first few days.  I took 2 or 3 a day fro about 5 days... but saw no differnec from lining measurements really from February.  Also added a few hundred euros of acupunture this cycle... again not sure if it helped but it did cost money and take up time... maybe that at least seems better then doing nothing??   

I had 3 embryos 8 cell and two more frozen at blast to add to the 2 I have there so a further FET would be a possibility.  My clinic alwasy tries to egg share and avoid FET but I knew there was no egg share this time.  They never say how many total eggs the donor had... so I have to assume others were frozen for research or for other patients.  I am sure they gave me the best they had though.  
I am thinking I best wait until the 15th for testing- monday- 12 days after ET.  IS that when you are testing?  I doubt I will hold off aon HPT until then but as ex DP will be here visitng DD I will try to not test until he leaves.

Since ET I have taken Spasfon ( for anti spasms and pain in uterus) but still have had pain in abdomen.  It has subsided a bit now since yesterday and I stopped the Spasfon yesterday    go figure. 

I had a pretty heavy bout of depression last few days but better today.  Somehow the DE IVF cycles seem so much like a non-event.  24 hours out and back,  less then a hour in the clinic, pay a wad of cash and off you go to be a miserable anxious wreck for 2 weeks.  Do you know what I mean?  Just almost seems it did not happen in a way.  

Well just one more week and I am PRAYING ( and I never pray)  that it will be fully positive or negative but no more of this sort of positive only to be a m/c later.... that will just kill me.  I suppose I am most worried about that happening again.  You lose the baby( embies) as well as all that extra time, need to look at further hysterscopies, etc, etc....  I just do not think I can do that again.  Well we always say that but find a way... but it is bloody hard thing to go through and I really hate it.  ANd we never really get over a miscarriage.. it is a loss that just stays with you forever I think.

Well I am not full of sunshine today.. sorry.  Come over to the Abroadies and ask Heffalump to put you on the list.  There are two others in 2ww right now as well (alma may and schmoo)

Take care and good luck to you!!!!!!

Bonnie 
b123


----------



## druzy

Hi Bonnie

I think we just crossed over, I've just posted on the abroadies thread.  I'm feeling pretty similar to you, depressed and fed up with it all and really beginning to annoy my DH too.  So I understand don't worry.  Sometimes it's better to get it off your chest and understandable as we have both been through a fair bit to put it mildly.  

Re. the cyst, yes it would be outside the endo wall, I mean an ovarian cyst.  Apparently these are quite common (20%), I have had them twice, once on the my 2nd IUI and once this cycle.  They are not meant to interfere with DE IVF although Isida asked my doctor to aspirate mine as they are a bit anal like that!  From what I understand they are old empty follicles from the previous cycle that some how get picked back up again when you takes the oestrogen/progynova and fill with fluid.  Other than that they don't do anything except sit there and show up as a big black thing on the u/sound.  They can also be painful.  Mine were never too bad but I was aware of them and I have heard of other people having painful ones.  They usually just pop on their own I understand and certainly with your next cycle.  So I wouldn't worry about it.

From what I understand uterus cramps can be a good sign of implantation??  People seem to have these aches and pains so unless its mega acute I wouldn't worry, may even be a positive thing?

I have been told to test on 27th June, which is 14 days from ET but I probably won't hold out til then either!  I think seeing as we are thinking about it most of the time anyway we may as well test!  Although I'll probably wait til day 10 which is.....23rd...god, that sound a long way away.

I WISH I HAD SOME STRONG SYMPTOMS!

I too really need to get to the end of this road.  It's enough now isn't it.  So   to us both.  Hang in there and see you on the abroadies chat.  Perhaps Heffalump will put me on the list.

Love 

Druzy xx


----------



## Martha Moo

Hi ladies

Just to let you know that Tashja is hosting a Donor evening in the live chat

I wil post the info below

I know a few werent able to make the last one

*GENERAL DONOR CHAT NIGHT  * 

To be held in the Garden Room on the 1st Tuesday of the month. 

Next Chat - 2nd October 2007 
Time - 7.30 onwards

Bring a bottle and we will have a good old chat.










Everybody welcome to come and ask questions, get information or just to find out about donor eggs and sperm.

*Look forward to seeing you all there !!!*

FF Mods 
xx​
Em


----------



## amanda69

Druzy, I might be a bit late as I see that your original post is quite old now.  I conceived with a 7 mm lining that had passed its optimum.  On my scan they also found a small cyst in the uterus muscle.  This didn't make any difference at all.  Another girl on the IVI has just conceived twins and she had about the same thickness lining that I did and also had a cyst.  Don't worry I am sure that you will be fine. 

Bonnie, I hope that you got your BFP.

Amanda


----------



## druzy

Hi Amanda

thanks for your reply.  Both Bonnie and I got BFPs!

love Druzy xx


----------



## three_stars

Yes, Thanks Amanda for asking.  Druzy I I have both been so lucky to have BFP and nearly same time.
Bonnie
b123


----------



## Martha Moo

Just a reminder ladies



Emxx


----------



## Martha Moo

Just a reminder ladies
tonight is Donor chat


----------



## amanda69

Just popped to have a quick look.  Many, many congratulations to you both.

Amanda


----------



## loobylou713

I went there and noone wanted to talk lol.


----------



## **Tashja**

I was in the garden until 8pm but nobody joined me 

If anyone would like a chat please PM me and I will pop in for a chat.  Looks like there might have been some problems with the chat room tonight though as quite a few couldn't get in.

T xx


----------



## ibina

Hi, I am new so please bear with me.

I am looking for donor eggs probably in Spain but am getting confused as to which clinic I should use.

IM looks very expensive.
IVI is possible, however I dont think they let you bring your own med. 
Eugin and Cefer look possible because I can bring my own med.

Has Anybody got any info regarding the better choice it would be so helpful in trying to decide, also I haven't seen anybody mention Cefer on this site?

Many thanks.

Ibina


----------



## jane43

Ibina,

We have decided to go for donor eggs at Eugin and had our first consultation last month, there is apparently a three month waiting list so we should go back for transfer before the end of the year. I can't comment on the other clinics as we didn't visit them but we were impressed by Eugin, though I did struggle to find much about them in forums as I think they deal a lot with the French. The clinics all appear to have very high and similar success rates as the donors average age is in the low 20's.

Good luck with whatever choice you make....x


----------



## safarigirl

Hi Ibina and welcome to the site - you might want to look at the thread (two below this one) that reviews non uk clinics - might give you an idea of what to expect etc.

Sorry i havnt heard of cefer ....

do come and join us on the general abroadies chat thread, where you will get lots of support and information


----------



## bluebell

Just quickly to let you know that IVI do let you use your own meds, if that is what you mean, ie you obtain your own medication.  They will write a prescription for you if you want, or you can get your own in your own country.  Sorry if I have misinterpreted you !
Good luck in your treatment journey !
Bluebell xxx


----------



## ibina

Hi, Many thanks everyone for your replies.  Do Eugin & IVI freeze the eggs and keep the spare ones for your use a second time around and if they do is there a reduction in the second treatment if I have to go again?  Anyone know their % rates for first tries?

ta Ibina


----------



## fringegirl

Ibina

IVI do keep any left over frozen embies for you to try again. I had DE treatment at IVI Alicante on 9th Aug and am now just over 8 weeks pregnant with twins. I also have 3 frozen embies waiting in Spain for me but not sure if we want to take the risk of another set of twins!!

If you go back and use the frozen embies it's much cheaper and I think about £2000 rather than about £7000 for the fresh cycle.

I think their success rates are about 65% for first attempt.

4 ladies from the IVI threat went over to Alicante IVI and 4 of us got BFPs and 2 of use are having twins so they have a pretty good success rate.

I'm pretty sure you can use your own meds if you want to.

Hope this helps


----------



## ibina

Many thanks for this,  was the price £7000 or 7000 euros?  I have been told about 7000 euros from IVI, although they seem a bit vague on pricing compared to other clinics?

Do you know if the success rate at Barcelona is as good as the other clinics, did you do any research into the other IVI clinics?  Hubby and I haven't been to Barcelona so wanted to make a romantic trip out of it all!

Anyway congrats to you and the twins, did you have a long wait finding a donor?

Ibina


----------



## fringegirl

Ibina

No it's £7000 in english money - I think they gave you the price without the first consult - plus we had all our blood tests etc done there as well.

I had my first consult on 1st June 2007 and the ET took place on 9th Aug 2007 - so only  a few weeks before they found a donor.

I didn't use Barcelona as they seem to have long waiting lists. I went to IVI Alicante who have no waiting lists. If you look on the IVI thread a lot of Barcelona and Valencia ladies seem to have a bit of a wait for donors.

You have to take into account paying for flights, hotels etc as well so we probably spend about £8000 roughly.


----------



## BernieBill

Hi There

Am new to these boards but would like to join everyone for Donor Live Chat.

Please could you tell me how to get into the garden room?

Many thanks

BB xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## sarz77

Hi  there
I am hoping that you can help i am 30 years old and have been ttc for 4 years an have unexplained infertility.  I've had 8 months of clomid with ovulation induction, 3 iui's, 3 ivf, 1 frozen embroy transfer all negative and I am starting to wonder if it's meant to be.  I've had my AMH tested and they told me my reading was 2.4 pmol apparently the normal range is 9.6-1.9 and i've been told i'm on the low end of normal, my first cycle i only produced 2 eggs which weren't great quality but they tell me it was the drug protocol 2nd two cycles produced 12 eggs and had 2 grade 1 embroys transfer sadly all negative, I've apparently got immune issues raised NK cells and had high dose steriods with 3 of my cycles and hasn't seme to have done the trick, my consultant tells me maybe i should try 1 more time and use IVIG but i'm feeling very jadded by the whole process and am wondering if i would be better off trying with donor eggs, i did mention this to my consultant at the lister who said that it's not entirely logical as most women of 30 who try with someone elses eggs either have ovarian faliure or are producing poor quality embroys and at the moment i don't fall into either of those catagories, wondered if there was anyone else out there in the same boat, also I've heard that IM in spain have good success rates although they don't do blastocyst transfers, do any clinics in spain do blastocyst transfers?
Thanks in advance for your help
Sarah
xxx


----------



## Spaykay

Hi Sarah sorry to hear you're having a rough journey. You may want to pop on to DE newbies and ask some questions and a lot of ladies there are looking into and doing DE tx abroad. I live in Spain so am doing tx over here but have never looked into other clinics. I also think there's an IM thread, although not sure where. I hope you find your answer. I am doing DE tx because my embrios have chromosone probs due to my naff eggs. 

Kay xxx


----------



## Ms Minerva

Hello!

I received an email from IVI Alicante this week telling me that I will not have a synchronised cycle, but that they will match me from their donor pool.

Last year I had a synchronised cycle, which I thought was better, as it did give me a little bit more notice to get myself out to Spain.

The other thing I am concerned about is if our donor is from a pool, will the physical match be as good as if if was a synchronised donor?  

How does it work? Do they stimm a number of donors and then pick one when my lining is at its optimum?

I don't really understand how it works from a pool, whereas I can understand the idea of selecting a particular donor and synchronising our cycles.

I would be very grateful for any info about this to put my mind at rest!  

Jules xx


----------



## MaryEllen

hi sarah

i dont go on this site alot anymore due having time etc... but just wanted to let you know i went to the ceram, spain for my final treatment and had de and can honestly say i have a wonderfull son    

maryellen x


----------



## joanne3

Hi Sarah

I can relate to your dilemma.  I had a couple of negative attempts using by own eggs, then 3 abandoned cycles (poor response, produced appx 3 follies each time).  Clinic at the time told me to switch to DE, I went to IM and I've had 4 negative cycles.
Recently, I had the ovarian reserve test done and it has come back good (above average for my age) which is good news.
I am now going down the route of trying with my own eggs again and looking into immune issues.

It is so difficult to decide when to stop trying with your own eggs and use donor eggs.  I am completely happy to use donor eggs, but knowing my results, I want to give it a last shot using my own.

I do think some clinics can suggest donor eggs too early, but I'm not an expert, just going by my own experience.

Jo


----------



## safarigirl

Jules i'm sorry i cant help you, but perhaps you should pose these questions to the clinic, and get some confirmation around your concerns.  Ask when you would know about hte donor (e.g. characteristics, proven etc) - so that you have the choice to say yes/no.  Or make sure upfront that they know what you are looking for in a donor.
Want to wish you luck and love with this cycle


----------



## Ms Minerva

Thank you for replying Safarigirl!!

I think that you are right, I will email the clinic and raise my concerns with them.

In relation to the characteristics of the donor, it is the policy of IVI *not *to give any information out until *after *ET and then the only info that I received last year was age and blood group! 

Another woman has had treatment recently at IVI Alicante and was told a good deal more information than I was, height, weight, eye and hair colour, occupation, so I will press them for more information this time, maybe they have changed their policy. It is still anonymous and none of the information could be used to identify the donor, it is just nice to have a little bit of info!!!

Jules
xx


----------



## fringegirl

Sarz77

IVI Alicante definitely do blastocyst transfers as my embryo transfer with donor eggs was done this way. I believe this is why my treatment was so successful and I am now 26 weeks pregnant with twins.

If you search for IVI on the web and go to their website you can email them and I'm sure they will be able to offer you advice.

Best of luck.


----------



## chopsy

Hi Sarah

I had donor eggs at IM and had two blastocytes transferred last October after PGD. Am currently approaching 15 weeks pregnant and all's well.

Really hope you are successful. 

Chopsy

xxx


----------



## Guest

Hi Sarah, clinics in Spain do tests on sperm that doesn't seem to be offered in the UK, I've recently read research on the internet that suggests that DNA fragmentation in sperm might account for re-current IVF failures with good looking embryos.  This might be worth looking into....  

Hope you're well, chat soon.
Dx


----------



## Hunni

Hi all

I am in the process of having egg donation abroad.  I am one week in of having prognova the drug to thicken lining. Was due to go over to ivi barcelone from 4th feb and it has slightly been delayed. How long can we take prognova for? and does anyone know whether it delays your period? as I will start to worry about bleeding before egg transfer. Any advice would be good.

Good luck with everyone having treatment.



Hunni


----------



## earthe kitt

Hi Hunni - didn't want to leave you unrespinded 

I know the IVI do give you a drug that you can take up to 50 days after downregging - it may be Progy

You may be better off asking on one of the IVI threads or looking on IVF Connections

Jo XX


----------



## Old Mum

Hi Hunni,  just to let you know that the first cycle I did with IM in November I was not put on progynova and my lining was also very thin  4.4mm on Day 9.    They called me 3 days later for transfer which I believe contributed to my negative cycle.

This cycle I started Progynova when AF arrived and I was on 2mgs per day.    On Day 9 this cycle I was at 6.7mm so it defo works.  They did not call me till 10 days later  for transfer and I have  been taking Progynova every day.    At transfer I was told I would continue with it till the 12 weeks of PG were up if we got PG.      Sadly I tested yesterday and our 2nd cycle has just failed but to answer your question you cant be on it too long.    Not sure what the strength of your Progynova was though.

Sincere good luck with your transfer.


----------



## Hunni

Hi girls

I have just had egg transfer at ivi barcelone and I am 4 days into transfer cycle but I am not experiencing any cramping that a lot of you have experienced is it normal not to feel anything.

Any advice would be good.


Hunni


----------



## safarigirl

Hunni it is absolutely NORMAL TO FEEL NOTHING!!!!  There are a range of symptoms and no symptoms, the only clear thing is the blood test.  I had no tummy cramps, breast tenderness or anything and got a bfp.  I know of many women on these boards who have not had a single symptom and got postiives.  There are also others who have had symptoms and got a positive, so there is just no one way. (Then there are symptoms and negatives, it just seems that everyone is different) Try and relax, laugh, eat well, be positive and rest if you can.
Wishing you ltos of luck for a positive outcome - you have every reason to believe that this is your time.


----------



## podbean

Hello everybody 

I am registered at Isida, Kiev, Ukraine going out for initial consultation and tests the weekend of Feb 28th 2008!

I'm trying to get my head around what's involved, time scales, so we can plan ahead and limit stressful events. I don't know if "one size fits all" in DE IVF but would somebody mind giving me some pointers.

So far I understand the process to be:

1) Fill in forms, send back to clinic - done - a couple of days.
2) Get tests done - easy enough can get most done in London, but doing them at Isida and want to meet them before collection - Feb 28th
3) Sychronise my cycle with the donor until we reach downregulation - using Decapeptyl - *is there an average length of time for downregging - a couple of weeks Also do I need to get blood tests and scans done in London? * 
4) Preparatory phase to prepare my womb - using valerate estrodiol and progestin drugs - *how long is this likely to last? At this stage do I need to get scans and blood tests done in London? * (Also at this stage the donor to be going through the stimulating phase)
5) Egg collection from donor - I'll be in Isida 3 days before this for scans
6) Egg Transfer - 3 - 5 days after collection
7) 2 Wk wait
 HCG test

I hope these don't seem stupid questions as we are now a month into the researching this. I'm posting this on the Ukraine Board too.

Also, if scans, bloods and additional drugs are needed has anyone found a cheap London based clinic or gyny dept at hospital that we can use? I've heard London Fertility Clinic is good but haven't started researching this end of the cycle yet.

We are also wait listed at Reprofit in September 23rd just incase and also looking at Invimed inbetween in the event that this isn't successful.

Thank you ladies for your help.

Lots of love
Podbean


----------



## Hunni

oh bless you

Thanks for that advice.  I can now enjoy the rest of the 2ww without worrying about every little pain or cramp I may or may not get.

Good luck to everyone.


Hunni


----------



## niamhy

OK
I have done my best, I have trawled all the sites I can find and read as many threads as is humanly possible but I can find no information from any country about having a known donor IVF cycle in any country. I know in the Czech rep and Spain it is not permitted but does anyone know if it can be done anywhere else?
thanks again for reading
Niamhie xx


----------



## safarigirl

Hi
You could contact DCN (Donor conception network in the uk) - they might have this information for you?
SOrry cant be of any further help, but hopefully you will get the answers, and country you need ....
also just thought that you could also post on the donor eggs/ sperm board as someone there might have an answer ....
good luck


----------



## Newday

USA!

dawn


----------



## Manuka

It's possible in Belgium.
  
Good Luck!


----------



## jess p

Belgium - but when I looked you had to provide a donor and then they swapped it with someone else's donor!  This might just have been at one particular clinic.

Good luck!

Jess xxx


----------



## niamhy

thank you all so much for your help
I am struggling to decide where to go
might try uk if anyone can suggest a good clinic that does own donor and pgd
thanks
Niamhie


----------



## Shellyj

South Africa, do it. Look up ff member brown owl, she had twins last year through de there. Love Shellyjxxx


----------



## Scotty dog

If you look at US clinics, you can select the donor; from photos and their personal statements.  

We've ended up taking this route as I found the absence of info on the Spanish donors too unsettling. 

Best of luck!


----------



## orla2

Hi girls,

I am thinking of using donor eggs but I am still unsure about certain issues e.g. should the child have a right to information on the donor.  

I went over to IM Barcelona in July for my initial appointment and I am not fully sure yet about going down this route.

My problem with using IM is that the child (if I'm lucky) will not have any information on the donor.  Also, they will be unable to contact the donor because of the laws in Spain.  

I have decided to tell the child about using donor eggs but I feel that using an anonymous donor would deny the child their right to have more information on the donor.  Also, I feel that I am denying the child the right to meet the donor when it's 18 if I go down the anonymous route.

I recently found out about a donor egg agency called Renew in S. Africa.  The donor writes a little about themselves and you get to see photos of the donor.  Also, some of the donors have no issues with the child contacting them in the future (through the agency) if the child desires to meet the donor.  

From my own perspective, I would prefer a Spanish donor because I have a love for Spanish culture, etc.

But from the child's perspective (if I choose S. Africa) I feel that I would be giving them a right to information on the donor.

I've very confused now and I need to make a decision soon as I'll be 43 in December.

I was wondering if anybody else went through the same issues?  Also, I have considered going to the USA but it's very expensive.

Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Yogs

Hi Orla2

(I remember our previous pms and hope that you got some answers to the investigations you were looking into).

This (I feel) is a question only you can answer and as you say, it is an important issue.  Why tell a child they are born from a donor egg if they will never be able to get closure on the topic should they wish to.

Perhaps counselling would help?  But at the end of the day, I don't think anyone else can help you make a decision which is entirely yours.  I am sure you will do what is right for you and your partner.

Very best of luck.

Yogs xx


----------



## cherrycherry

Hi Orla2,

I do feel for you and can relate to what you say.  Just maybe this might be some comfort to you, as it is to me; I myself am a bit sceptical that anonymous will always mean anonymous forever. I'm sure in the future some anonymous donors, for whatever reasons, will want to put themselves forward to be contacted by any grown-up people who were created through their eggs, just as has happened now for years with adoptions. I think at some time, somewhere, someone is going to start at least one agency where those women can try to be matched with offspring their eggs created, who are seeking their donors; and science can establish whether people are related now, according to their dna, so all it would take was for some medical lab and personnel to be involved, and matches could be made.  I do know this is not the same as what you desire, and what I also think would be good, (frustating, isn't it!!!), but it makes me think it would be *possible* for a past anonymous donor to be familiarised to the child, and while this is so, it is kind of Fate whether or not this happens; something out of our hands. This is how I can reconcile myself to pursuing anonymous egg donation tx, which I intend to do very soon.  I just thought this might help. 

caringly, 

Cherry Cherry


----------



## Rusty06

Hello Orla2

I have struggled with getting my head around the issues of anomynous donors the same as you have. As others have said it is something only you can decide and I have still not ruled out using an anomnous donor in Spain or SA as an option for me. I have been in contact with the 2 agencies operationg in SA and I am VERY attracted to this option. Have you looked at the SA threads are so useful and you can chat to the girls who are in the process of having treatment over there through these agencies. 

Before I make the final decision about going abroad I am going for an appointment at CRM in London, there is also a thread about using this clinic. They claim to have only a three month wait for donors so if the anomynous issue is important for you tratment in the UK would be best. I know this is easier said than done but maybe CRM could be the answer. The costs are £7,000 for DIVF including ICSI. I have an appointment in December so I will know more about the donor availability after that appointment.

I know I have not given you an answer to your question but just someting else to think about. By the way I got my appointment at CRM within 2 weeks.

Hope you area able to reach a decision which is right for you I know this is so not easy as there are so many obstacles put in front of us all.

Good luck

Rusty

I will be posting how I ge


----------



## cherrycherry

Hi Rusty,

if it's not too much trouble please could you put the url to the south africa threads on here please, as I have been looking for them for a long time and still can't find them.

Cherry Cherry


----------



## cherrycherry

no need now Rusty - I have eventually found it


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

There have been debates about this and people toying with anony or ID release- there are also donors who have said that they are donating eggs/sperm now that are ID release but have no intention of being availbale in 18 yrs time, and it is reliant upon them keeping in touch etc.  This will cause even more problems as there is an expectation there.  I am using DE in Spain and do intend to tell my child if I am lucky enough.

Good Luck with your decision making
L


----------



## orla2

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for your comments.  Very much appreciated.

I emailed both agencies in S. Africa and I have received a reply from one agency called 'Nuture'. Egg donation is anonymous here but you do get to see pictures of the donors as toddlers. I must admit that it felt very surreal viewing potential donors.  It makes the whole process very real.

I am awaiting a reply from another agency called 'Renew'.  They show pictures of the donors as adults and I believe that some donors will allow future contact (if needed) between donor and child.

Thanks Rusty about the info on CRM in London.  I thought that the waiting list was much longer in England e.g. a few years?

I was due to go for transfer to IM in October but my donor was cancelled.  We did not have a backup donor because my case is complicated e.g. my partner is a CF carrier and the donor must not be a carrier.  I was unable to go to Spain in November so I asked if I could postpone treatment until January. 

In the meantime, I read a thread on this website about anonymous vs non anonymous donation.  I guess I had not really thought too much about this issue. 

Also, I tend to look too far ahead into the future.  I worry about the implications of anonymous donation and not having any details about the donor for the child. 

I feel that the more I read on this subject the more confused I become.
It's so difficult to make a decision and sometimes I think that maybe it would be easier not to go ahead with egg donation.
I postponed having children until I was in my early 40's and then found out I had high fsh.  So maybe I should just go with fate? 

I'll keep you posted on whatever decision I make..

Best of luck to everyone on their journey.

Orla


----------



## Femail

Hi,
Hope you don't mind me responding as i have read your posts with interest.
I remember having the same type of dilemma's when i was deciding whether to go for ED.
Will I tell the child?
How will i cope when people say the child looks like my DH and not me ?
What if the child is ill and needs a transplant, i would not be able to help.

I have to say all these concerns go away when the midwife hands you your bundle of joy.
I intend to tell my twins they are from egg donation and explain it in a way that it is similar to donating blood. You would not know who the person is. Without my DH sperm and them growing inside me, the eggs would not have developed into 2 beautiful babies.
I may be trying to simplify it too much but try to think of ED as being a donation of cells and nothing more.

One thing I have had is a good friend and also a doctor say "what is the medical history of the mother". They have then seen my face and changed the question very quickly. First time is was hard to cope with   however now I find it amusing when i see them try too dig themselves out of a great big hole. They suddenly say " you are the mother, I mean the donor".

My twins are now nearly six months old and people have said they look like both myself and DH. Even my mother has said the little girl looks like me when i was a baby. Also with regard to DNA, I have read somewhere that the baby will have an element of your DNA as it is your body that has provided the nutrients and blood to grow but then again i am no medical expert.

I hope this helps and has not confused you even more.
however please feel free to PM me if you have a questions however please note with twins I do not check my emails too often.


This is a tough, emotional journey however I would do my whole 5 years again to have my twins.
Take care and be lucky

Femail


----------



## Kelly42

Hi
just wanted to see if there are any other women out there aged 45+ considering starting donor egg treatment abroad.

Would like to chat and receive/ offer support.

I know you're out there (I hope!)


Kellyx


----------



## Penelope Positive

Hi Kelly,

I am 45 and although I have been in treatment for years, I have just got my first BFP at this age. I would be happy to share information, hopes and dreams with you, it really can happen.

Where are you thinking of going for treatment? What is your background?  

There are many people on the boards in our range and there is actually a thread for over 40's ttc which you could check out too. By all means send me a PM with any questions you may have.

Pen
xxx


----------



## Kelly42

Hi Pen
thanks for your response.

I've been very down in the last few months about this whole thing and have avoided looking at FF. But coming back to it and seeing your journey, I see there can be a positive.

Congratulations on your !
How exciting and stay positive.

Thanks for the offer, I will PM you.

Kelly x x


----------



## eams

Me too. I'm 45 and just about to start enquiries about DE abroad. I keep swinging wildly between thinking that of course I'm not too old to try for a baby as I'm fit and healthy and a very young 45 - but then the next day I feel ridiculous for even considering it and feel so old and alone. I look at my friends in their late 30s who seem no different to me and wonder why it should be perfectly ok for them to have another child but not me - it's only a few years difference.

I would LOVE to stay in touch with some other folks my age as we all go through this.
eams x


----------



## Bree

Hey you guys less of the old lady stuff!      Check out my info below. I was 45 when I had Ben and am now trying for a second LO. I am now 47. I think its your health and a PMA that matters, not your age. BEST of luck with your journey Kelly. DE is the best thing I ever did. I am happy to chat anytime. love from Bree xx


----------



## olgakorbut

Dear All

I am normally on the over 40 board and have made loads of mateys there via the over 40 and thinking about donor eggs thread (I think it is called that).  I too am 45 and 46 in April, however I am not going abroad I have a UK donor who is 23.  So far she has had all tests and they are fine, we have our counselling next Mon and she has hers in March, unless they can bring it forwards.  She just has to have a scan now as well.  I keep thinking something has to go wrong, as nothing has worked so far, but am trying to be optimistic as I should!  

I met my donor through another board like this one by the way!  Would love any info people have available, it would be really helpful.  I researched going abroad and spoke to some who had full embryo donation and some just eggs, all have been really helpful.  My friend is 21 weeks pg with donor eggs from Reprofit, others went to Spain.

Good luck all
Kathy xxx


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## lily17

Hi All

Im 43 and just had DE treatment in Russia, Im on the 2 ww so keeping everyhting crossed!!!
Russia as a country is an expereince!! the clinic is very efficient and organised, they are very well practiced, and have no waiting lists for donors.
I had an inital appointment in Nov, chose the donor in Dec, and had the transfer in Jan!!

Karen xx


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## olgakorbut

Keeping my fingers crossed for you and praying   you get you   !!

I will keep my eye on this board although on the over 40's one, for your result.

Sending you lots of fairy dust and glue!
Kathy xxxx


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## RSMUM

Hi! 

Just wanted to say I agree with Bree -    I was 39 when I had my first baby and gave birth to my second in May this year, I was 47 in December. I have some frosties and woudl like to go back for them pretty soon if possible!  

Hang in there and best of luck to you all    

xx


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## shadowseeker

Hi all,  Just thought i would put my bit in here,      i am 48 with a birthday coming in a few months. its very encouraging to see i am not the only over 40 around.  we are hoping to try our 6th attempt in the next few months.
good luck to all

San x


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## valswife

hi all just thought id add 2 im 44 going for concilltation on mon at cerum athens re de ivf iv read so much on these boards im so excited cnt wait good luck to us all


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## Kelly42

Thanks for all your responses
Doesn't make me feel so riduculous pushing for a baby at 45/46 when I see Bree and Karen steaming ahead!
Everything crossed for you Karen  

I feel so much better having posted on FF.
Thanks guys

Good luck to us all
Kelly x


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## RSMUM

Kelly - you sound like such a fighter - reading your tx history, you have gone through so much hun,and been so close so many times -  I'm not sure what treatment plan you are hoping to follow but I just wanted to wish you tons and tons of luck - you will get there in the end, I am sure of it..hang in there and we are here for you when you need us..

XX


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## RED13

Hi to all,
I had my first DE baby at 49. I'm hoping to go back for my frosties March/April. I just turned 51!!
Some days I feel tired yes, but so do 25 yr olds with a 19 month old baby nd a full time management job!!
Anyway, Follow your heart on this one. DE was the best thing I ever did in my life and my greatest accomplishment. My DD is the liht of my life. I'd like to give her a sibling if I am so blessed.
Good luck to all on this journey. I believe God sends us the little person we were meant to have And DE is the vehicle.
Red


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## Bree

Red, You go girl!! I would hate to be in my 60's and think oh if only I had done the donor egg thing when I was in my 40's/50's. I totally agree about the technology being a gift from God. I used to worry in case people would mistake me for Bens Granny, but its worked the other way, people assume I am younger than I am because I have a small child! IF anyone does mistake me for a granny I will rush out and get some botox done and buy a trendy top. hee hee    I am going back for some frosties in April too. I hope we are both lucky this time   love from Bree xx


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## redmond

Hi Kelly-just spotted this thread.  I am 45yrs and expecting twins via DE in Spain.  I have had a good pregnancy so far no problems with me or babies in fact keep being told how good blood pressure is for my age!  I am an average 45yr old not particularly fit and just about manage the occasional swim!  We have been trying for 7yrs and are so excited this has finally happened.  Don't let other people or your age effect your decison.  Took me a while to get head round DE but now just can't wait to meet my sons.  PM me if you would like to ask anything and the very best of luck


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## nadia64

I am 44 and approaching this Saturday Donor Egg Insemination in Lisbon, Portugal.

Wish me luck
Nadia
xx


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## redmond

Hi Lirac,
I used IM in Barcelona they were okay not always great at communication but we got there in the end!  Got positive on 2nd fresh DE cycle.  Had a number of IVF pregnancies with own eggs but 3 x M/C led us on to DE. Good luck on your treatment x


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## Kelly42

Hi Redmond
Thanks for your response.

I will email you but i'll need to get my questions to you before the boys arrive!!
Congratulations and look after yourself - no walking on this ice for you  

Thanks to all of you for your responses and support - really, really made me feel a lot better.

Lots of   to us all and  

love
Kelly x


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## shadowseeker

Xandra3 - I have tried replying to your message but your in box is full, let me know when i can re-send it

San xx


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## Bree

Nadia, GOOD LUCK in Portugal  

Kelly, I am an IM girlie too. They are good but VERY expensive. I see Lirac goes to IB Alicante, I have heard good things about them and I believe the prices are a bit better. IM is 9600 Euros for a fresh cycle plus 800 Euros for freezing. Also 2540 Euros to go back for your frozen ones! I think the main thing though is to just pick somewhere and get started. 

Redmond, glad to see you are doing well and 32 weeks already. Wow. Come and announce the birth on IM bumps and babies when the time comes  

love from Bree xx


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## boots00

hi Ladies,

I just read an interesting statistic... apparently in order of importance, IM have said
70% egg
20% sperm
10% lining quality..

looks like the egg quality is the most important thing... so it certainly was for us, i'm 40 and had 2 attempts with my own egg, and 1st with Donor egg was a success.

Boots x


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## ♥JJ1♥

Boots I really hope that your stats are correct as I have a poor lining and have got over to Spain (IVI Bcn) and been sent home twice now due to poor lining (I have Asherman's) we also have low sperm count so ICSI

L x


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## olgakorbut

HELP PLEASE ASAP!!!! WARNING THOUGH LOTS OF WORDS AND QUESTIONS AND WAFFLING!

Hi folks, some of you will know me from another board but I am in such a dilemma at the moment.  I am 45 and was due to have donor treatment very shortly with a known UK donor, she has let us down very badly - last minute and only text to say couldnt do, how selfish and unthoughtful is that.  I was so devastated and upset and am now more angry, as I had done so much research into going abroad and have wasted 8 months with her saying she will absolutely do it.

Now I am back to the drawing board looking abroad again, I have some info from before but have emailed clinics I did before and new ones to try to get in asap and when I say asap I mean asap.

Reprofit is one of them and I have a friend who is due in June who went there I am talking to tomorrow evening.  However they now have an 11 month waiting list and I dont want to be 47 next year when I am only conceiving!  They are pretty cheap, I've emailed them giving them a pleading story to see if they can get us in sooner for either egg donation or embryo, we dont mind if it isnt a match at all which usually makes it quicker

then there is St Petersbury in Russia, costs quite high and I read a thread on here last night from a girl who had been there, thought it was great but there were hidden costs galore, then you have flights and accommodation. No waiting list I could go for initial consult beginning of April - my birthday in fact!

then I maild Ukraine, Isida, she has come back overnight so most impressed, cheaper than above, and again no waiting list.  but cost is around £4,320, but then there is medication, flight - accommodation may not have to pay as my assistant at work is russian and has relatives there.  They havent given a cost for straight embryo though, the above is ED, so I've just emailed back about that and some other things, including same date as before.  I know they work Saturdays so hopefully I will get a reply quickly.

then I have emailed Falun in Sweden which on this board people say is good and fairly cheap, however there is only one page on the website in English!  

then Life in Athens, which I know people like Poopy from FF has been to and is due shortly.  that is supposed to be really good, so awaiting a response from them, but its the weekend - aahh!!!

Lastly, IM Spain,w hich I got loads of stuff on before but boy are they expensive, but i do have friends from here who have twins now from there.

Right that is it for clinics, I dont know what to do, I have to find the money - we do have savings but supposed to be for the house renovation, then I have to book flights etc.  I am an Aries so very impatient.

Anybody have any recommendations about these clinics, good and bad and any others they think I should try.  I just need to feel so much like I am getting there, although they say patience is a virtue.  I think its because it keeps me going after being let down last Friday.

Any help urgently would be so appreciated!!!!!!!!

Thanks all
Kathy xxxxx


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## ♥JJ1♥

Kathy
So sorry that you have had your disappointment, I know that IVI in Valencia have no waiting list as they have the DE frozen already.  I am with IVI Barcelona and waited about 3 months for a donor (a cycle costs about Euro 10,000 but we need ICSI).

The USA is another option and donor readily available (Shady Grove is the largest DE clinic in the USA, or you can get them from a DE agency and use them at a clinic over there, it use to be similar costs to here for a cycle but the $->£ exchange rate isn;t great now!!
L x


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## Bree

Dear Kathy, so sorry your donor let you down. You must be gutted. I like to crack on with things and not waste time too so I know how you must feel!!!! This could be a blessing in disguise though as some of the clinics abroad have much higher success rates due to using very young donors. IM has a waiting list of only a couple of weeks and they run a back up donor scheme so you are never let down if some-one backs out or doesnt produce enough eggs etc. Down side is ;VERY EXPENSIVE!!! If you go with IM ,SERIOUSLY think about the refunding programme as that is the cheapest way to have a few goes at it  (Also has 96% success rate !!!!!). It would probably mean you having to choose the house renovations OR the baby if you go down the IM route.
Lots of luck with where ever you choose, as I like to say the main thing is just choose SOMEWHERE and get started!!  love from Bree x


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## olgakorbut

thanks Bree, having a bit of a cry, DH is out of the way up the garden, Im not even dressed been on here ages.  its so lovely to get support, I wish I could do IM, as I hear it is so good, I just wish they would bring their prices down and the exchange rate is awful.  I dont think I could really put my husband into using all renovation money to it, it was from his parents, I would feel so wrong.

Lets hope (see my post to Bubbles) that the dr at Reprofit has a kind heart and lets me in early, although I bet he gets alot of sob stories, if not it could be Sweden or Ukraine I feel, but must check out Valencia thanks to Bubbles.

Thanks so much, 
kathy xxxxx


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## podbean

Hi Kathy 

I am so sorry about your UK Donor - that is just horrendous and I doubt she realises the impact of her decision on you.  How on earth somebody could text that to you is unbelievable.  

I am 44 - due to be 45 in a week.  I can highly recommend Isida for cost, no waiting list, past successes, and care both before and after treatment.  Larissa has always been fab in answering any questions we have extremely quickly. 

Dr Oleg (the doctor I saw) spent close to a year sorting out my womb - with a UK Doctor - long story - but fibroid related.  Whilst I was disappointed at having to wait before starting treatment, I understand now that it was the right course of action that he proposed. (Eventhough a London based clinic had done 3 cycles without ever highlighting or diagnosing any fibroids)

We always managed to travel and stay very cheaply in Kiev using a specialist Ukrainian travel agency. If you have any specific questions, please don't hesitate to pm me - or look on the Ukraine thread in the international boards. 

I know it must seem awful at the moment but it will get better.  Taking action, when you are ready, in choosing the clinic will help.  It looks like you are already in action as you are here asking for information.  

I'm also sitting here in my dressing gown too!  

Podbean
x


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## Bree

Dear Kathy, All these clinics have good success rates. You could practically make a decision by flinging a pin in a map then choosing the nearest clinic!!! The main thing is to get started. I have heard good things about IB Alicante, and its cheaper than IM. Some-one on this thread goes there, maybe you could ask her how she liked it. If you really fancy IM you could try their embryo adoption scheme which is a great idea (and instant....no waiting!) and much cheaper than a full cycle. Its very successful BUT it wouldnt be your husbands swimmers. You might not be at a point where you could accept the idea.
Good luck with choosing your clinic, this could be the start of the best thing that ever happens to you   love from Bree xx


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## nadia64

Hi Ladies

I did get pregnant and my lining was 7.5 but lost it 5 weeks.

Busy now getting ready to go for the frozen embryos. My lining is 5.5mm. So hoping to thicken it more.

Hope you are all well.


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## KatieZ

Hi All

I'm 47 and just starting out on donor egg treatment - due to go to Isida in Ukraine in July.  I'm lucky enough to have kids from previus relationship but DP has none and has very strong feelings about being a father, hence we are undertaking this journey.  I find it all a bit scary, and do worry about my age, but am working hard on maintaining a PMA.  Reading all the positive stories on here and learning that it is possible to be an older mum, that I'm not the only one trying at this age (!) has been really encouraging.  

KatieZ


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## sky7

Hi Kelly

I am 47 and looking to go abroad, Spain probably, for Donor egg treatment this year.  I have only just started looking and I am so confused as to where to go and what to do.  I have been told after a few failed attempts that Donor eggs is my only option.

Any help on choosing a clinic would be appreciated.  I am going to read all the other posts on this section now.

Many thanks

Sky


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## ♥JJ1♥

I am IVI Barcelona I am 40 but DE my only hope, there is an IVI thread on here that you can ask the girls any questions, there are IVI clinic across Spain.
http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=172284.555

L x


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## louise007

Hi Ladies
I have just been to IVI Valencia for initial meeting re ED.It was fine but..
they have a team of staff who do the matching for ED .They will not give us any info on the match or any choice re donors until if/after I get pregnant.Just feels a bit strange that we have no input in the choice -must leave it all to them and Hope ...they make a good choice.
Is this usual for spanish clinics as the lister and CEream gave us a bit of choice between donnors they presented?
Also for you women who have been succesful with ED in Spain has the match been good?I know this is a strange question but I have no idea aout how accurate there matching team is and obviosly I want any future child to blend in with our family as much as possible
Many Thanks for any experiences ,comments
louise


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## bluesky3443

Hi Louise,

I also returned from IVI Valencia not that long ago.
I understand what are you saying regarding the lack of infomation regarding donors, but you are aware that in Spain the law dictates that the donors are anonymous. They must have taken all your details to do a good match

IVI Vlencia works with a pool of donors, in order to get the best results for you when you are ready and not too loose the window of those dates.
I in particular don't mind not knowing what are her hobbies and what is she working at or even what age is she, because if they have carried out all the medical test that points out that she is a good donor it is all I need to know. Of course I would like t see a picture to see if she is miss world but I know that that is not going to happen, and the important thing is that my baby is going to be raise by me with my believes and my ways, so it will not matter to me what the donor has done or achieved in her life. The important thing is that she has good genes.

I know that there are different views on this and my wiew  migt  not be suitble for you. You need to go to a clinic that you feel comfortable with.

Good luck and best wishes on your choice. 
Bluesky xxx


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## safarigirl

hi louise
i went to ceram and the one thing i asked for was a relevant height match (as i had blue eyes) i said we would go with brown eyes as didnt want to wait ... as we were in the telling camp we thought we would just take our chances ....
my dd was born with a thatch of red hair and the bluest eyes imaginable!!!!!  She has skin like nicole kidman! She looked like my husband when she was born, but everyone now tells me how much she looks like me!  I have met a few people on these boards and their children, and it makes me smile sometimes at how much they resemble their mothers.  
Prehaps some posters can tell you about the clinic and the decisions made, but i  am a great believer that it will work out.  There was some interesting work done on epigenetics (how the mother carrying the child influences the genes, so that the child you carry is influenced by you - do a search on this)
Good luck with your decision i know its hard, but like bluesky i decdied to trust my clinic, put my luck in the hands of the god, forever thankful to my donor and her generosity (looking at my daughter she must be one of the most beautiful women in spain) and know that it was a means to guide my child into my arms ...


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## louise007

Bluesky thank you for your thoughts-wish you lots of luck with everything.
Safarigirl-wonderful to hear that so many children seem to resemble in some way their mums.Yours is a lovely story-enjoy every moment of your little girl!
Louise


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## Skirtgirl

It may be that you biological child would look nothing like you either, my 2 have the blondest hair and bluest eyes I have ever seen and I have dark hair and eyes as do all my family except my cousin who is ginger (who knows where that came from!!) and aklthough I had the odd comment when they were born like 'are you sure they are yours?' alnone with the equally 'are you sure they are twins?' However I am always being told how much my dd looks like me, I think it must be her mannerisms as physically she couldn't be any different!!!

I know it all seems very scary at the begining but tbh in the end I came to the conclusion a baby is a baby and grows very quickly into a person with a personality! then physical characteristics dont come into it.


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## mountainlion

I went to IM Barcelona, and they told us the match before transfer.

We weren't fussy about the donor match at all, including the donor age, so they gave us the eggs of a 29 year old, who had been turned down by 2 other couples because of her age. Both transfers so far have been successful, so the eggs must have been good anyway.

Just for interest, both our children are from the same donor, and 1 is very olive skinned and the other is very fair!


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## shazziebear

Hi

I have only been a member here for a few days.  I have just had a follow up appointment today with my Consultant after cancelled IVF due to zero response.  He told us donor was our only option.  

I have shortlisted two clinics, Serum, Athens and Pedeios, Cyprus.  Does anyone know what tests need to be carried out in the UK and where do get them done, costs etc.  I understand that this can be quite tricky here in the UK - I live in Hampshire.

Still trying to get my head around the donor, but a family means more to me than genetics.

Any advice would be most welcome!!

Shazzie


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## Ceri.

Hiya Shazziebear  

I notice that BamBam gave you some links earlier in the week. I'll move your post to the Tx abroad boards where you have previously posted but might get some clearer answers now you have the info from your consultant today.

Big hugs hun  There are lots of girls who can advise you there x


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## Dodi

Hi Shazzie-Bear,
I am a newbie too, just joined yesterday! And, am in exactly same position.  Had cancelled IVF in Jan cause no eggs.  AMH test showed no chance of using own eggs.  So we are having donor eggs in Almeria, Spain.  We had an initial appointment there in June and they needed to do the usual blood tests as ours were over 6 months old and I had a scan.  If your blood tests are less than six months old, you might not have to have them again, but I guess each clinic is different.  They also needed evidence of OK cervical smear.  They gave us prescription for the drugs - and this is where we've had problems as UK pharmacies won't accept it, plus the UK clinic we went to in Jan (CARE) won't monitor cause the protocol is different. Yesterday spain emailed to say I need first down reg injection on Monday and we don't even have the drugs yet - now seeing if they will get them for us and Fedex. It is quite a different culture of medical process - which is why I joined the forum - to find out if anyone else has done it this way?


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## cutebear

Hello all,

I am with IVI B and have just started the pill today and so they are now looking for a donor for us. I just wondered how long it took others to have a donor found? I would love to hear for anyone who has had donor eggs and also would like to know where you are or had treatment.

I have been told anytime from 4 to 12 weeks.

Also I would love to chat to others who are at the same stage as we and are now in the waiting game.

Thanks


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## scottie1

Hi

I'm new to this site.  After 2 failed IVF with poor response attempts here in London, I am about to take the step of using donor eggs in Ukraine.
I have endometriosis and am 40 yrs next birthday.  Is there any ladies out there who are in or have been in a similiar situation and had success using donor eggs.

I am not sure if I will go via the Bridge clinic in London or directly to Isida hospital Ukraine.

Any info. would be appreciated.

thanks 
Scottie1


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## cutebear

Just wanted to update this for anyone else wanting to know the answer. I was put on the donor egg waiting list on 24th Feb 2010 and got the email on the 25h May letting me know they have now found a donor for us.

The wait seemed to take forever and also some of the blood test we needed doing before out 1st apt over at IVIB are now out of date and we need to get the re done.

I so hope this is going to be our time.

Goodluck to anyone else who is waiting a donor or about to start.

Cutebear.


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## emmaboo73

good luck cutebear


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## cutebear

Thanks Emma,

I am sure I need all the luck thats given to me.

Cutebear


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## nursejue

Hi Cutebear,
all the best for your journey.
Can i ask about the tests you need to have here?
Do the GP's charge for the tests needed?
I am losing weight in an attempt at deivf abroad.
I hope you don't mind me asking
regards
Julie


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## cutebear

Hi Julie,
1st may I congrats you on your weight loss so far. Your doing great so keep it up. I am more than happy to answer anything you want to ask. I will say I am new to all this so can only answer what I have learnt so far.

As to all the tests needing doing to have DEIVF at IVIB. I only have there list so I can only say what they wanted.

The 1st lot have to be within 6months old when you have treatment.
HIV                    you and OH
Hepatitis b            you and OH
hepatitis c            you and OH
VDRL                  you and OH
FBC                    you and OH
APPT                  you
Glucose                you
Us and Es & creat  you
Toxoplasmosis        you

Also you will need...

Blood Group          you and OH
Cystic Fibrosis        OH
Rubella                  you
FSH                      you
LH                        you
TSH                      you
Prolactin                you
ECS Bacteriology    you
ECS Chlamydia        you
Mammogram          you
ECG                      you 
SA                        OH

My local GP is great and did carry out alot of the tests for me but there is some on the list I needed to pay for as well. I had them done at our local Private clinic that are sorting out all the scans needed before treatment and after.

I really hope this is of some help to you. Please feel free to ask anything else you want to know as I know when I 1st started out I didn't know were to turn.
I can give you an idea of the prices I paid for the tests I needed but not sure if I can post them on the boards so PM me if you want to know.

Goodluck and keep the weight coming off.

Cutebear


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## Andi123

Good luck x


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## Crikey

Dear All

Apologies for cross posting this.

I'm entering the confusing world of DE abroad (probably Czech Rep or Spain) and would love to get some info on the following:

- I am looking for a sympathetic gynae who can re-write my scripts and do my scans etc in Dublin, so I can use DPS card. 
I know a lot of people go to Dr Kent Ayers in the Beacon, but I am looking for alternative clinics / gynaes to do this with. 

Does anyone NOT go to Dr KA in Beacon? Can anyone tell me where they do this?

Has anyone used SIMS to re-write their scripts and do scans? Are SIMS open to this? I'm a previous patient of theirs. (Would call & ask but those reception women aren't very nice).

I'd love to get as much feedback as possible from women about which gynaes they have used for this. Please PM me if you can recommend someone but don't want to give names.

Thanks a million,
Crikey


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## Smurfette

Scans: Femplus in Blanchardstown v good.  My GP wrote the scripts for what he could but anything complicated I got in Spain or the Italian Pharmacy by post.
I also had a scan down at Ultrasound Dimensions in Blackrock when Femplus were closed.


Good luck!


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## All5

I have used Kent Ayers, Sims and Femplus for my treatment.

Kent gets 10 stars due to unbelievab'e carring attitiude..and for putting me in contact with Dr. Keane to do more tests of DH

Sims loses 5 stars due to the fact that I felt like a number and could never get any info out of them.

Femplus loses all stars..she was going to put me on Clomid and seemed to ignore my partners lack of healthy sperm.. 0% morphology ...in fact my new treatmetn regime involves IMSi abroad (an advanced form of ICSI) with a sperm donor back up....thanks to Dr. Keane for that...though to be fair to Sims they did say ICSI with sperm donor back up

So... who do you think I would tell you not to go to?


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