# A Child Against All Odds - FROM 14th Nov, 9PM, BBC1 (weekly)



## Charlies-Mum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/achildagainstallodds_index.shtml

A Child Against All Odds follows the emotional stories of patients undergoing fertility treatment and the science that makes parenthood possible for people affected by infertility. Tune in to BBC One at 9pm from Tuesday 14 November. Each week, more information about the latest programme will also be available in this section.

Thought this might be of interest 

Deb

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites

[red]*Just need to add that the opinions expressed on this thread are personal opinions and not ff opinions* [/red]


----------



## mazv

Thanks for the info Deb.

Knew this was coming on in the autumn but wasn't sure when. Do we know if any of the FF peeps have taken part in the programme?

Will definitely be watching it, just not sure I'll be able to keep my emotions under control when doing so  

Will be interesting to see what everyone thinks of it? Shall we use this thread to keep track of comments?

Maz x


----------



## Anabelle

Just seen a trailer, think we're gonna need loads of tissues

A
xx


----------



## Bronte

Just seen the preview on TV and nearly had tears , DP is looking forward to watching it too.


Love Bronte xx


----------



## AmandaB1971

Yeah we're looking forward to watching it, although will need to cut the plug off my mothers telly for the night!    She's a bit hysterical about the whole thing! 

Axx


----------



## *kateag*

Oh that looks good, although a bit of a tear jerker. The egg sharing one will be interesting as I havent seen anything about this yet.
xxx


----------



## DizziSquirrel




----------



## Blue Lobster Keeper

_*Not sure where to put this, but as Robert Winston is on This Morning today 14/11/06, I was looking around on the This Morning website to try & find out if I can submit a question about fertility via email, as yesterdays programme said he was there to answer infertility questions, & I found this:

http://www.itv-thismorning.co.uk/NewsAndFeaturesArticle.aspx?fid=1593&tid=2

This article is about his new series & also contains a snippet of info about some of the other episodes in the series . Couldn't find anywhere to submit a question to the show for him tho .

Hope I haven't hijacked this thread, just thought it might be of some interest *_

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## maria684

Hi

He's just been on This Morning, I'll certainly be watching tonight.

love Maria xx


----------



## flowerpot

Thanks for that, I'm going to see what mood I'm in tonight as to whether i watch it or sky+ it for when I feel less pre-menstrual!  

oh no, meant to sky+ This morning too, did anyone watch it? x


----------



## Blue Lobster Keeper

_*I am watching it now - I think they have just finished interviewing him, but he might be back on answering the calls & questions later. - I have sent an email, might even get answered  *_


----------



## raffles

Thanks for this.

I was going crazy as I thought it was on last night and couldn't find it! Thought it had been bumped for something else, or that it was not being shown in Scotland, now I know I will be settling down to watch.

Cheers

Raffles


----------



## tag4e

Hya,

I am so looking forward to watching this 2nite. I have my tissues at the ready   I have heard that the series may contain Lister fertility clinic, does anyone know if thats right?

Tracey
xx


----------



## **Jenna**

Hi, I'll be watching cant wait  
I just watched him on this morning aswell!
Jenna xx


----------



## Anthony Reid

We helped the BBC source couples from here - so you might find FF mentioned


----------



## Terri

I've series linked it.  

I love watching all the stuff that Sir Robert Winston's does anyway so I'm gonna be glued to this programme.

Tony - very interesting, I can't wait to watch it even more now!

Terri xx


----------



## *kateag*

Im really looking forward to this show, its about time more was seen about this. 

Lister had a poster up yesterday advertising it, does anyone know if they are being featured??

xxx


----------



## Caz

kateag said:


> Lister had a poster up yesterday advertising it, does anyone know if they are being featured??
> 
> xxx


When I was cycling there in April/May, they were advertising for couples to take part in a BBC production due to be shown in the autumn, so I would not be surprised to see the Lister featured in some of the episodes.

C~x


----------



## maria684

Hi

I vaguely remember a poster up at Bourn Hall requesting couples, looking forward to programme tonight.

love Maria xx


----------



## DizziSquirrel

Im WORKING tonight  

See if Dh can stay awake to record it 

~Dizzi~


----------



## Martha Moo

Hiya folks

This programme is just starting on BBC1

After the programme at 915pm

I will be in the chat room for a general discussion on the programme

If you would like to join me

click on the link below

*********

Love Emxx


----------



## Linda

Too emotional for me to even think more about it.
The couple down in Somerset just made me bawl..  I was looking at their beautiful daughter, thinking that could've been my son... 
And here I am a year after first PGD, still not knowing if I'm gonna face doing it again.


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Brill program. DH and Me had a little weep for the two families with genetic conditions   What a lovely ending and a beautiful little boy 

Not so sure about the family with 4 boys that wanted a girl though..... 'grass' and 'greener' springs to mind.


----------



## sanjo

Me and Dh watched this also: i was crying at the end but im sorry if this offends anyone but I didnt feel sorry at all for the couple that had 4 boys and wanted a girl.  With no children and a recent BFN i found it too upsetting that there was a "void" in her life with no girls.

Sanjox


----------



## AlmaMay

OK, sorry to be pety but I'm still trying to survive another BFN (2 weeks ago).  

  

Was is it just be being sensitive or did they really need to put the Children in Need ad and the BBC One ident with tons of children on just before another 'groundbreaking' infertility series??  

Also, why did they need to start the series with all couples who already have children?


----------



## Linda

sanjo, I completely agree with you! We did PGD for genetic reasons, and I couldn't dream of doing it for gender, UNLESS it was a genetic condition that is only affecting genders. 
To me, it's a very selfish thing to do.


----------



## Nicky1 ☺ ☺

I too ended up in tears at the end of the programme  But was also ranting most of the way through about the lady with 4 boys, Why can't she just be grateful she has 4 healthy boys there to love!! 


x x x


----------



## *kateag*

I have to agree about the sex selection, to go through that just because you want a girl is beyond me, a healthy baby is a healthy baby,  but I have to say the fact that couples have children doesnt mean they dont go through heartache as well. We have a daughter but we have had a m/c and a failed ivf cycle and infertility has affect us badly. 

Def had a cry during that show, so did dh. Hopefully it will bring the situation to the eyes of more people now, so they can understand what happens. 

xxx


----------



## Tina xx

Hi, I completely agree with you about the family with four boys. I can't believe that they said that they "Don't care that the boy embies will die in the dish"     What a complete b****!!!! They don't deserve to have any more babies. It has nothing to do with her already having 4 children as I have an 8 year old son and understand how great the need is to have another baby (I have been trying for 6 and a half years for the next baby), but her attitude really sucked!!!!

My sister has had 4 failed IVF and 2 failed fet   so to listen to someone going on like that really made me mad!!!! Next weeks episode looks good for me to watch as it is about fet, so it will help me to understand what she has been through.

Tina xx


----------



## Popsy Dee

What a fantastic programme - I had tears rolling down my face.  

The lady with the 4 boys really upset me - especially when asked if any girl she had turned out to be a tomboy - she said that would be a huge problem (what??).

I was so pleased about the couple from Gateshead - and Maisy's parents were so lovely they deserved some happiness too - I am gutted for them.  

x


----------



## AlmaMay

I felt so sorry for Maisy's parents as well.  I thought that was a really honest part of the program where they showed the husband holding his wife and she was crying.  Very touching.

I think they only showed two scenes of crying in an hour.  Once when the woman got the news that her embryos were carriers of their illness and the other when Maisy's parents got the BFN.  

Am I a freak?  I seem to cry almost every day about IF and I'm not even in a cycle!


----------



## londonlou

I think the woman wanting a girl should better have therapy than treatment. I dread to think what life would be like for any little girl born to her. Looks very much like she had been trying hard to have a girl what with the two little boys so close together with such a big age gap between them and the grown up sons. I know it's mean, but I didn't want it to work for her. 

Wish they would show more of the run up to ec in these things. They really don't show the amount of drugs you have to take and the length of time involved.


----------



## MrsRedcap

Totally agree about PGD to weedle out genetic problems...but not for sex selection UNLESS there is a chance of genetic illness to a particular sex.

That Cyprus woman...I was shaking my head in disbelief!   Letting her boy embryos die indeed     this sounds evil but I was hoping she'd get a negative.  

Maisy...what a gorgeous little girl   I so hope her future is bright!  

The other couples...my heart went out to them both.


----------



## earthe kitt

They don't show the traipsing about getting to and from 3-6 appointments in one week and they don't show the hanging around in clinics for an hour waiting for a 2 minute scan either

Make it all look far too easy

Jo


----------



## sanjo

MrsRedcap said:


> Totally agree about PGD to weedle out genetic problems...but not for sex selection UNLESS there is a chance of genetic illness to a particular sex.
> 
> I totally agree
> 
> Sanjox


----------



## *katie*

Great program and I also disagree with using PGD for gender selection simply to "complete a family".  I probably sound a really really really nasty person but I said to DP just before the end of the program that if it were only one or two out of the 3 couples who got a bfp I hoped it wouldn't be the Cyprus couple.
I just wish Maisie's parents had gotten their longed for bfp too.


----------



## AlmaMay

I think we need to be careful.  We need to remember lots of people don't think any of us should have ANY IF treatment.  The woman who went to Cyprus wasn't hurting anybody by having treatment and I think she was quite brave to go on TV to tell her story.  It's all part of the debate.


----------



## Reb

Elaine, I agree with you.  IVF can have a bad name and people not affected by IF understand very little the pain it can cause.  

I feel its a shame that this wonderful gift (ivf/pgd) which enables infertile couples and couples with genenic abnormalies to have babies, is also used, in some countries, to enable people to select the sex of a child.  I truly beleive that IVF/PGD should be used to treat a condition.  It is against the law in this country for good reason.

That said, I respect the views (as I am sure we all do) of others in our wonderful sensible debates we have on here  

Becca
x


----------



## CJ

I had tears rolling down my face too, I was wishing so hard for it to work for the couple in Somerset, when they found out they had just that one little embie they were so thrilled I burst into tears , it really brings it home , all their hope for a healthy child and sibling for their daughter was in wrapped up in that one little embie and they were so happy that had it, it was so so sad it didn't work for them   
I feel it was wrong to show that woman with the 4 children in that same programme as those couples as they would have given anything for a tiny piece of what they had (4 healthy children) and she was upset about not having a girl  , shoot me down for being mean if you want but I didn't feel anything for them at all and was so pleased it didn't work, when they got one embie they were disappointed yet they have 4 wonderful boys, they could learn so much from both of those other couples..  makes me so mad if I'm honest. they could have gone home and made a healthy baby the natural way which is what those couples and everyone one here would love to do but no that wouldn't be enough for them.
For medical reason I have no problems, I thought that is why they created pgd   but for choosing the sex no. I was so please that they didn't make any boys embies as that would have been so upsetting.


CJ x


----------



## AlmaMay

I can't believe I'm sticking up for the woman who wanted a girl because I found that part of the show almost unbearable to watch BUT I feel I need to say it again.  She wasn't hurting anybody.  Certainly not any of us.  PGD is a science and people will use it for what they wish where the law allows.  Some people think that even screening for any illness is wrong, including scans for other genetic illness.  Science has provided the technology.  It can be used if you have the money.  No guarantee it works though.  

Who are we do judge?


----------



## AlmaMay

p.s. Just because we like somebody or they come across well on TV doesn't mean they have any more right to have this dreadful process work than anybody else does.  It hurts for everybody that IVF (and that includes all IF treatments when I write that) doesn't work for.


----------



## birdiew

I have to disagree in someway that she is not hurting amyone - that lady as an individual maybe not but the whold concept is worrying, and a bit like pandora's box - once we start selecting for perference rather than medical reasons where do we stop - hair colour, height, inteligence, sporting ability.

If we do the "chose" better children will everyone want to "design the perfect family" - this is real life, not The Sims

I have 2 girls and and am trying IVF for baby with new DH and as much as a boy would be nice I am glad I am legally not allowed to make that decision - everyone thinks what they are doing is right but on a large scale it could have long reaching implications

Sarah


----------



## AlmaMay

Sarah,

I have to completely disagree with you.  Lots of selection is made during this whole process.  I'm not sure how far along you are but I'm a bit haggered by my IF journey.  I'm also not so sure of how aware you are of the donor egg process.  If you do a bit of reading on it you will find a lot of chat about, height, hair colour, body type, education etc.  It's not PGD but very similar.  

What I am TRYING to say is that WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE?  

Lots of people don't think we should have IVF or any IF treament available at all.  Afterall, (apparently according to some) "God doesn't want you to have children"

Think about it.


----------



## AlmaMay

Sarah, 

By the way, did you watch the program tonight?  The last part was about the supposed "designer baby" born to the couple who had that dreadful disease and lost their daughter to it (sorry can't remember the name).  Their "designer baby" was born as a carrier of that disease so it's not perfect.  Far from it.  It's just their baby won't die before the age of 2.  

Just because technology is available dosen't mean you have to take advantage of it.  Lots of people don't have scans etc.  They do it for their own very personal reasons.  Maybe don't want to make difficult decision or they are happy with what their god has given them.  You don't have to either but in some situations you can elect to have technology assist you in your decisions.  Just like we have IF treatment to assist us in having a child, if we are so lucky.


----------



## Ceri.

MrsRedcap said:


> That Cyprus woman...I was shaking my head in disbelief!  Letting her boy embryos die indeed    this sounds evil but I was hoping she'd get a negative.
> 
> The other couples...my heart went out to them both.


Vicki ... totally agree with you there hun, agree with most of you actually, pgd shouldnt be used for gender selection at all. And like you say Vicki, the couple who went to cyprus... discarding their embies just enraged me to be honest, naive and extremely selfish. Consumed in their own little world.
My heart also went out to the other couples who got bfn's.
Ceri X


----------



## AlmaMay

What about clinics that won't freeze embies because they are not good enough quality to freeze?  Surely that is a form of eugenics.  If we are paying why not freeze all our embies if we ask?  I have a problem with not feezing because a clinic says so.  

My heart also goes out to all the couples who got BFNs.


----------



## A1979

I enjoyed this programme but did feel like they made it all look very easy.

Like someone else said, there were not as many tears as in real life!  And didnt show or mention the trouble we end up having in attending appointments, getting time off work, helping others to understand, building up for the first injection etc etc.

Maisie and her parents were lovely.  I so hope that miraculously find the money somewhere to have another go.  They are clearly devoted parents and the first thing she did was go and hug her little girl.  That really had the tears rolling!

I also liked the family in Gateshead and was really pleased to see their success and their bouncing baby boy at the end of it.

The woman who just wanted a girl.  Hmmmph.  Well I will admit that I would LOVE a little girl but I certainly would not be disappointed with a little boy nor would I let any of my boy embies die in the petri dish.  It absolutely infuriated me.  IVF is not a naturally conceived pregnancy and most people want to do as much as they can to make it as natural as possible.  Choosing what the sex of your baby is not naturally one of lifes choices.  That poor little girl would of had so many expectations to live up to.  What if she didnt want to wear frilly dresses or have her nails painted.  What if she wanted to get down and dirty in the mud with her lovely brothers?  I couldnt believe that she said that would be a problem!!

I had a look on the BBC website for the programme and there are some other videos on there.  They are really good.  It shows one couple waiting for their test to show and its really moving.

Anna x


----------



## Kamac80

ok well ive come to stick my pennys worth in now!

I agree with having the PGD testing done but not about sex selection as i feel that really is playing god and she had 4 beautiful healthy boys when i sit and cry just wishing for one child. I know if i said that to her face she would argue with me and quite frankly i know that i will never understand her need for a girl like she would never understand my need and many others need for wanting just one baby.

I do however admire her bravery for going on national tv and letting people follow her story as she probably knows she would get a lot of people who argue that what she is doing is not right in peoples opinions.

IVF, etc and infertility will always be a subject that people will have different opinions on and will always be debated and some people in society will never know what is invloved until they are put in that situation.

And finally!! I wasnt going to post this but i see many others did so i dont feel so bad now but i also kept thinking that i hope the couple who went to cyprus for sex selection would get a negative.

Kate xx​


----------



## Mrs-GG

Gosh I felt for the couple who were on their last chance and got a BFN. My racing hormones got the better of me! 
But I have to say I felt very little sympathy for the couple who went to Cyprus to try for a girl. They have 4 healthy boys. A little mean voice in my head was saying they should just be thankful and extremely grateful for what they have. So may of us would sell our grannies for just one boy let alone 4. Its not a very charitable thought but sometimes these little mean spirited thoughts just pop into my head sometimes. 

What also rankled a bit was that it looked like these women just turned up for EC with a tummy full of eggs. No hint to the month plus of injections, waiting, stress and anxiety to get to that stage.

Looking forward to the rest of the series though.

Mrs-GG


----------



## Wicklow

What annoyed me more than the women with 4 gorgeous boys was what earthekitt said on a previous post that IVF looked so easy. They never mentioned the weeks of medication, appointments, scans and not to forget cost! I think it wasnt the right one to start with, think a straight forward Ivf (if you can call it that) and show the majority of the world who dont understand what we have to go through. The series on 2 years ago maybe baby was a lot more informative. 
I still spent it in tears.
Ruth


----------



## Emma74 aka Emmett

The couple with the 4 healthy boys really got me   i cant believe all these people who are waiting for ivf and some selsish greedy couple who do not need ivf are having it just to have a girl.... and disregarding any male embies when they could of quite easily looked at donating them to a couple who cannot produce embies because of previous cancer etc i hope they get horrible comments from people in the supermarket today  

The other couple too maisies parents i was soooooo upset they got a BFN i really hope they get there dream  

Emmaxx


----------



## Fluffs

Good programme.  They did skim over all the drugs, scans, numerous appointments etc a bit however it is only the first of a few programmes so maybe they will touch on that more next time as they can't get everything in to one episode.  I really felt for the Somerset couple   and am glad that the Gateshead couple had a positive outcome.  I also have to say (and apologies in advance if this sounds heartless) that I am glad that the other couple got nothing for their £9,000.  They obviously saw no wrong in PGD just to satisfy their own wants for a girl and it was good to show others that you cannot just buy everything that you want.  However, hats off to them and the programme makers for showing all sides of the argument - anything to raise general awareness and provoke debate has to be a good thing doesn't it?

I'll get off my soapbox now  

Fluffs xxx


----------



## Barbie0676

Can somebody tell me how was that she was having injections before even choosing a clinic    How she got the injections in the first place


----------



## Willowwisp

Hi Girls

I watched this last night, with tears in my eyes   It brought it home to me what is going to happen to me in the next fews with EC and the waiting etc??

The lady who wanted a girl, umm I personally don't agree with sex selection but definately agree with PGD for genetic illnesses, she has four beautiful boys and should be grateful for what she has got, BUT I'm sorry if I upset anyone with this comment, but I couldn't wish a negative result on anyone, she has been through the same process as most of us, OK its for different reasons but it still hurts when we don't get the results we want? She did what was right for them as a couple, I don't agree with it but its their choice?

Maisies parents were lovely and I'm so sorry they didn't get the results they wanted, also what a lovely ending for the poor couple who lost their beautiful girl  

I'm really looking forward to watching it next week again.

Love

Willow
xx


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Well after a nights sleep here are my more thought out comments 

oh dear - well both DH and I cried all the way through the program last night. So so hard as we would have been in that position if they could identify what caused Charlies problem. We are so blessed that this Beanie appears to be healthy - I'm not sure I could have carried on if s/he had had the same problems....... 

My heart was breaking for the Maisies parents. I truely hope that they are fortunate enough to have another attempt and get their longed for child 

The little boy who was delivered at the end made me absolutely bawl. I hope I get to experience how happy they looked on his safe arrival next year. 

And as for the woman with the designer handbag Oops girl, DH said " I hope she gets a negative" to which I immediately replied "thats not very nice" but deep down I guess I can understand why he said that, as a part of me thinks it is wrong. I can understand her want/need for a girl (I desperately want a little boy, but as long as its healthy I will love and cherish whatever the powers that be send me!), but her attitude really made my stomach turn. I wonder if the Cyriot Clinic will be investigated for 'illegal activity' as they said at the beginning of the program that sex selection is not legal in cyprus...... hummmmm


----------



## bfbc

I watched last night and two things spring to mind.  Firstly it was not actually a programme about infertility because none of them had a problem actually getting pregnant.  It was more about the ethics of PGD as an off-shoot of IVF.  For theat reason, I don't think showing the pain of infertility was really relevant to what the programme was about.  They all had a chance to produce the 'child' that they wanted rather than letting nature take it's course and they all chose to take the opportunity / chance that it would work for them. What it did show clearly is the very high failure rate of IVF itself as a means of actually getting pregnant....which I'm sure will have surprised alot of people with no knowledge of IF.

Secondly, I wasn't exactly rooting for the couple wanting sex selection but they were clearly devastated by the outcome and surely we can identify with that.  I must have blinked because I also didn't actually see them discard any male embryo's as I thought only one egg fertilized and that turned out to be female.  I do remember her having doubts about whether she could just let a male embryo die but she was never in that situation so who knows what she might actually have done.  As we all know the longing for a baby can take over your life and she simply longed for a girl....we can't simply say you've got 4 boys be grateful....we wouldn't dream of saying that to someone with secondary infertility who longed for another child.  

As the technology exists we can't make it disappear and I think we're just going to have to accept that some people will use it for what we might consider unethical reasons....but the fact that people go through IVF when they can have a child naturally just shows the desperation that they have. Nearly everyone of us...without any genetic conditions would opt for natural every single time over IVF....just because the technology is there does not mean that the majority of people will ever want to use it. 

Eve


----------



## KerryB

I Sky+'d it and will watch it with DH tonight hopefully....its seems to have pressed quite a few buttons though.  If there is a feedback forum on the BBC website it might be a good idea to post a few responses, it would be interesting to see if we get a repsonse back.

I'll post again when I have watched it.

K
xxxx


----------



## longbaygirl

Have to say I am really shocked by all the comments here wishing the couple who went to  Crypus a negative. A witch-hunt. Shame on you all.

After all the heartache and pain we have all experienced here, to wish anyone a negative is completely heartless. Yes, they have money, yes, they already have children, yes, they want a daughter, but they are still flesh and blood, they still feel pain and grief as much as the rest of us. And we really know so little about them, who really knows the anguish they have been through?

I have three healthy happy boys, and I had a beautiful daughter born still at 37 weeks in 2004. Despite my wonderful boys, not a day goes past when I don't think about her and the cold grave she lies in. 

Maybe one day I will try PGD to have another daughter. Would you all condemn me too? But before you do, try walking a mile in my shoes....................


----------



## Flakey

I really enjoyed the programme. I think genetic screening is a real step forward for all those people that need it. I was gutted for Maisy's parents. She was such a beautiful little girl and really deserved a sibling.  The other parents that had lost the baby daughter really deserved their BFP and I was so happy for them.

Gender selection is another issue altogether and one I totally disagree with. I would say that having four gorgeous boys was a "complete family" - I would certainly have been very happy with it. I think this couple were very spoilt and living in a different world to most people that have IVF. Personally I had no sympathy with her at all. I couldnt believe it when she said she wanted "barbie dolls" and not "scaelectrix" in the house. It is this sort of thing which promotes the concept of "designer babies".


----------



## tamH

As with many of you, DH and I shed many tears during last night's programme, and DH was fuming about the couple who wanted a girl saying "They should be ashamed of themselves!" He also said that he hopes they watch all the programmes so that hopefully they can understand the anguish that other couples are going through. However, having slept on it and perhaps being able to be a bit more objective now that I am SO blessed to be a parent to 2 girlies, I guess we don't all know the full story - she could have been seriously been suffering from depression due to her desperation for a daughter? And if some clinics are prepared to do this kind of tx, perhaps it's them that are in the wrong with tempting parents with these kinds of choices. 

But... I still don't see how anyone can justify IVF when you are able to conceive naturally, have healthy pregnancies and healthy children (4 of them!!!). Surely this isn't what it's for! And the comment about how they were trying to make him "less fertile" in the hope that they'd conceive a girl - Grrrrrrr - if only they knew! Didn't Robert Winston say he agreed with sex selection??

And seeing the 2 other couples and what they've had to go through was just such a harsh comparison. At least one of them had the outcome that they so dearly deserved.

Tam xx


----------



## ~ Chux ~

Whilst I'm not sure I agree with gender selection purely to have a particular sex, I don't think it's my position to say someone else is wrong to do it. If we hadn't struggled to conceive maybe I would have been more inclined to want a particular sex rather than just being grateful (for want of a better word) for a baby. Who knows, perhaps the feelings and emotions of wanting to have a girl isn't all that different to those we've all gone through/are going through just to have a child. Who am I to say it's wrong? Is it selfish to want a girl after having boys anymore than it is to want another after having one? Some may think I should have been happy and contented just having Jacob and was wrong to want another but the emotions and feelings for having another were just the same as before.

I haven't watched the programme yet so can't comment on this particular woman's attitude but IF certainly changes your priorities. I don't think anyone who hasn't had problems ttc can ever understand how it feels and perhaps that's also true in this instance.

My SIL is in the same position as this lady - has four boys, is desperate for a girl, and is actually pregnant now but won't find out for a few weeks whether it's a boy or a girl. Ok, she isn't going through gender selection but part of me wonders if it would be preferable than to keep having children on the off chance of having a girl.

Chux xx


----------



## Caz

I know a lot of people have not much sympathy for the couple going for sex selection and, to be honest, I didn't think I would either but I am going to play devil's advocate a bit here because I think they did a really good job of portraying the couple in a favourable (or at least non judgemental) light considering the controversy of that particular area. Frankly I'm quite surprised that so many people would wish a BFN on anyone regardless of their situation. I would have thought anyone who has gone through the emotions of a negative IVF cycle would be the last person to wish that pain onto anyone. I suppose it just goes to show we are not always as tolerant as we would like to think we are. 

I'm still not sure I agree with gender selection but I did find myself with a certain appreciation of their longing by the end. Although, I still can't imagine why anyone would put themseleves through IVF if they could have a healthy child without doing so, but I suppose there are people out there who cannot see why I put myself through IVF over and over when I could have had a healthy child through adoption or, better still, live child free and be happy with that. We talk about pushing the boundaries of science beyond what they were intended but only 30 years ago a diagnosis of infertility would have left you with no options but childlessness or adoption and certainly not any chance of experienceing pregnancy or having your own genetic offspring. A lot of people out there still think any sort of IVF is cheating nature. Boundaries get very blurred when you start debating these things, especially with people who have never faced the pain of infertility. 

The only time I really didn't take to that couple much was when they said she would let the embryo die if it was male. Part of me was screaming "how could you kill your child?" but then, thinking about it, I have let embryos of mine perish because they were "not good enough to freeze" or (on my last cycle) because I wanted it to be my last attempt and I wanted closure and didn't want anything lurking in the back of a freezer to come and haunt me. Is there a difference? I let a perfectly good embryo die for a selfish reason. I'm not sure that I am qualified to judge others about their reasons for selecting which embryo lives or dies. Also, I take into account the way they did not see their embryos as children before starting the process. I have to admit that I have always thought of my embryos as little babies in their own way, but, I am sure I did not see them that way until I had actually created some. I probably thought about them in an abstract general way too. They were not babies before I created them - they were cells in a dish. I wonder if they really would have let it perish if they had known it was male? I think they were lucky not to have to make that decision, and I wonder if their views or feelings towards embyros in a lab have changed as a result of their experience?
The one thing I thought was very telling was that at the end she seemed to accept that it was perhaps not her fate to have a daughter - quite an interesting change from the confident giggly person she was at the start. I'm not going to condemn this couple for wanting a girl. Perhaps they have been misguided/misinformed into thinking IVF/PDG would provide them with one but they certainly had a lot of courage to appear on national TV and show their journey and pain knowing that, perhaps, a majority would disapprove of them.

C~x


----------



## Fluffs

Hi all

Just wanted to clarify my earlier comment    On a personal level I do feel very sad for the couple who didn't get their little girl.  I don't agree with gender selection (unless for medical reasons) but any failed IVF regardless of the situation is heartbreaking.  What I meant was that it served as a very good example that money can't always buy you what you want and that sometimes in life you have to accept your lot and get on with it - they should celebrate having four happy healthy children and no fertility issues.  Of course had there been male embryos and they had donated them then I would probably be of a different opinion....

Not sure I've made myself any clearer (or less heartless sounding  ) in this post either.  No offence meant if any has been caused just not very good at expressing myself sometimes!

Fluffs xxx


----------



## Caz

tamH said:


> But... I still don't see how anyone can justify IVF when you are able to conceive naturally, have healthy pregnancies and healthy children (4 of them!!!). Surely this isn't what it's for! And the comment about how they were trying to make him "less fertile" in the hope that they'd conceive a girl - Grrrrrrr - if only they knew! Didn't Robert Winston say he agreed with sex selection??


Unfortunately (or fotunately if you prefer) I think when you are forking out your own money you can pretty mucy do what you want. I'm not sure that I disagree with that. 
I do agree with you about them making him less fertile. I think that came across a bit hard on anyone who has male factor issues. 
Robert Winston didn't say he approved so much as he didn't really see that it was wrong. I read his intervieww in the Radio Times and in that he did say that he went to see the couple with some preconceived ideas about gender selection but, in meeting them, he found it very hard to condemn what they were trying to do.

C~x


----------



## skyred

I don't know how to word this...................
We have a gorgeous little girl, through PGD sex selection. Its was not a easy choice for us, it was for a genetic reason not designer.
I watched and kept looking at Neave still not quite believing she's our's. 

I wish the couple with the little boy, love and luck. The couple with little Maisey, my heart went out to them.
BUT the woman with 4 boys. here words fail me. I do not agree with choosing a girl because "it would complete our little world"

It does make you think. 
I have a friend who thinks IVF is wrong, but then she doesn't need it. 

All our journeys and the choices we make along the way are so personal to each and every one of us. 
We may not agree with each other all the time, but our choices are our own, we live it.

Debs


----------



## ~ Chux ~

skyred said:


> I have a friend who thinks IVF is wrong, but then she doesn't need it.



I think that's the key thing. Having not been in that situation I can't understand it, yet still have an opinion. Is that really any different to those who don't understand IF and think IVF shouldn't be available on the NHS as it's a choice, for example? Could any of us ever of imagined how hard not being able to conceive would be without going through it? How irritating and ignorant do we find the comments from those who say things like you should adopt? Is the line 'you should adopt' really that different to 'you should be happy with your boys'?

Chux xx


----------



## wildcat

I agree with many of the comments on here already so I won't go into them again. The 4 boy couple should be ashamed of their vanity, and my heart goes out to the other 2 couples.

I just wanted to add that I'm so glad that sex selection is illegal here. The reason I say this is I fear if it was alowed then our precious clinics (that we have to wait many months to get into - mine was 8 months!) would be in danger of being overtaken by couples who can who don't need IVF but afford to choose the sex of their next child - and people like us who have no choice and need IVF to have a baby wold end up on an even longer waiting list.

That would really upset me!


----------



## Kitty kat

I am so surprised at the judgemental comments regarding the couple with four boys who wanted a girl.  Fertility treatment, IVF especially, is harrowing enough to go through (something I agree that was glossed over last night) and I don't believe anyone would choose to go through it lightly.  No one with a heart would deny the first two couples PGD but I think it was so brave of the woman with the boys to go public, both knew they weren't going to get much sympathy.  I think they would have got more sympathy if they had offered to donate the male embryos or even offered them up for research but its not our decison to make.  What came across to me if that they were a happy loving couple and so supportive of each other and unlike some of the people on this board, I felt so sorry for her when she got the phone call.


----------



## bfbc

Chux...i completely agree with you.  We can have an opinion but how can we judge ?  I presume that no one on ths site can get pregnant easily and have no IF issues....so how can we judge a woman who has no IF issues but is just plain desperate for a daughter.  It's just a different desperation.  If she is selfish....then aren't we all selfish for wanting something that we can't have naturally.  If we judge people then we shouldn't get angry and upset when people judge us and we don't like what is being said.   

Eve


----------



## candykidd

I have read all your comment and I'm not for it or against it really, I just wish that someone would bring out a tv programme on couples who do not have any children at all and are trying and currently going through fert treatment, this for me would be much better than seeing couples who obviously have too much money than sense to waste it on trying for a little girl when they have 4 children already. But saying all of that what is important to me is not important to someone else and I guess that couple saw it to be like that!  

For me it was good to watch something so I could see what IVF would bring but I wish they could run something on childless couples and confirm how much has been spend, low long it takes before they get pg this for me would then give people who are not going through this a real sense of what we all have to go through to get that little bundle of joy!


----------



## Blue Lobster Keeper

_*I watched the programme with interest & when I saw one of the ladies having her EC done with sedation & not writhing around in pain & then gettting up & walking away with no pain at all, I thought that was really quite unrealistic !

During & after my own EC, I was in ALOT of pain & quite hysterical & then could hardly move once back at home because of the pain for well over 4 days  . This has really put me off having our 2nd & last NHS IVF treatment .

The subject of last nights programme was maybe not an ideal subject to start the series with, but opened my eyes to PGD, as I have never heard of it before. Both my partner & myself suffer with Crohns Disease & if it was the case that our children might also be born with having the terrible disease, then we might consider PGD but luckily it wasn't an issue (well according to our IVF Clininc anyway ).

Am looking forward to watching the other programmes in this series .............*_


----------



## maria684

I agree with Blue Lobster about the way they showed EC if my EC's were like that then hey why did i sob like a baby all the way through.  
I felt that it showed having IVF as quite easy no sign's of all the emotional distress we go through from DRing to that dreaded 2WW. 
My heart went out to Maises parents they so deserved a BFP and the couple that got there BFP i kinda got emotional as I so remember how that felt. 
The couple with 4 HEALTHY BOYS I'm really at a loss as to what to say about them i think it's all been said, but i do remember when i was pg that i really wanted a girl and had half convinced myself that i was having a girl and when the midwife told me I'd had a boy not for a minute was i disappointed the love i felt for my son was overwhelming and i can't understand the woman who so wanted a girl.  One of her friends did say what if she doesn't want to wear pink, how would she have felt then!!!! I personally am opposed to sex selection for personal reasons, for medical reasons then it should be used.  I do think everyone who hoped she'd get a BFN need to remember what it felt like for them how lost angry and so so sad they felt because that is how that woman felt.

love Maria xx


----------



## Mish3434

I first read this thread this morning and was very shocked and saddened to see the resentment for the Couple with the 4 boys, whilst I may not agree with gender selection when its not for a medical reason, I still felt quite sorry for her, I had a lump in my throat when she got the phone call.  I yearn for another baby (girl or boy) and I know how it affects me on a daily basis, should I just be grateful for the one I have (I am very very grateful!!  ). 

Every day I read the 2ww thread hoping against hope that everyone testing gets their BFP whether they have children already or not, I want everyone to get their dreams.

Like Chux says everyone is entitled to an opinion but who are we to judge someone when you are not aware of all the facts I feel is wrong. 

Shelley x


----------



## bfbc

It's a fine line when we start talking about those that 'deserve' a BFP.  Are we saying that some people deserve a BFP more than others ?  I certainly wouldn't want anyone making judgements on whether I deserve one or not...not on top of all we have to go through in the first place just to get a 1:3 or 1:4 chance of pregnancy.  Isn't that just like going down the road of saying some people who have had several attempts is more deserving than someone who gets pregnant first time ?


----------



## ritzi

we talk about deserving BFP's all the time. on FF i have seen many a post which says - well done you deserve it, or sorry that you didn't get a BFP you really deserve it - and it has always made me cringe - no one deserves a child, it is a gift some people are lucky enough to have - not a right or deserved in some way......

the 4 boy couple, i could happily have strung them up. if she has major depression or struggles due to her lack of daughter in her life - get counselling, address the loss. 
IVF is awful, and the pain of a BFN very real for her - BUT she put that on herself when she made the decision to use IVF (that she doesn't need) to try for a girl.

while some say 'she didnt' hurt anyone' i would say she hurts us infertile couples. 
if PGD sex selection is allowed then clinics will be too busy to treat the infertile whilst they have rich couples at their door wanting a boy or girl to 'complete their family'.
secondly she obvioulsy had a UK clinic too as she had her drugs before finding her cyprus clinic - which clinic was this treating a fertile woman with IVF? are they idiots?
thirdly - clinics that do PGD for sex selection make the laws tighten up even more and put PGD at risk of becoming illegal altogether if it is used to lightly. then we (with awful diseases etc) suffer.
finally - this is what people think IVF is about. having it all. IVF needs to be portrayed fairly and the stories of childless couples shown so people understand the pain of infertility instead of thinking it's just about getting what you want....

the BBC would have been better to not start on PGD - it seems the series is out of order - IF should have come first with IVF/ISCI then specialised areas.....and like many of you i agree that the weeks of scans, injections, sniffs, heartache, stress etc was not portrayed and should be. it was like a walk in the park - and most of us know that in reality it isn't!


----------



## *Jenny*

WOW, what a very passionate discussion.  

I decided not to watch the programme last night as i really did not feel strong enough.  

Having read through all your posts i think this subject is one that some people are going to agree and others disagree.   I think we can all agree with that   I don't agree with sex selection for non medical reasons personally. I have a genetic problem which is fatal to 1 in 4 of my pregnancies and they can not do PGD as they don't know the gene.   If i am ever luckily enough to fall pg again i don't care what my child is as long as it is healthy.   However, that is in my position.   If i had four boys and wanted a girl maybe i would feeling the same way as that women.   I just don't know because i am not in that position like she is not in our position.   It is like us going on another website where people have not got IF issues and saying about IVF TX on the NHS, people don't agree because they don't know what it is like for us,   like we don't know what it is like for that woman.  

Maybe we should all put our selves in someone else's shoes for day then we maybe able to understand why they feel the way they do.   I ache with every fibre of my body to have a child, my arms long to hold him/her, my eyes long to see him/her and my heart longs to love him/her, i think most of you will agree so how do we not know this is the way that lady feels for a girl.   Yes, i don't agree with sex selection but i would never openly judge a person especially when it was a programme and i bet not all facts and feeling were portrayed.  

Jenny


----------



## Flakey

Like others, I think the series has been scheduled in an odd order - PGD is a strange opener and would have been better shown later in the series. Im looking forward to the one on FET because I have two frosties to make a decision on in the next couple of years.


----------



## Kitty kat

Ritzisowner - your 'if she has major depression or struggles due to her lack of a daughter - get counselling address the loss' is very harsh.  Couldn't the same be said be said to all of us.  Of course infertility is about want.  What else is it about?   But infertility is also so much more than just childless couples, what about secondary infertility, many of the women of this board already have children. What about remarriages, second families what about single women and gay couples going for treatment?   

And as a point of fact - I had treatment abroad and you do not need an 'Idiot UK clinic' to get the drugs,  I bought my over there on my initial appointment and when I needed others things I got it shipped from the Italian pharmacy.   There is no way my treatment or hers would have delayed yours in anyway.


----------



## Jools71

Hi

Really enjoyed the programme last night as we might of have to go down that route hubby has CF felt saddened for the couple in Somerset and happy things worked out for the other couple!

As for the PGD sex selection she should be thankful for the 4 healthy boys she already has!!!!!

I would love just to achieve having one child as many others on FF

                                  Jools


----------



## Lou F ❁

Abit of a heated discussion going on here isnt it
well for what it is worth i have to say i found the programme heart breaking,
i think PGD is a great break through but i have to say i think it should only be used for Genetics testing.
Whilst i watched last night i have to say the couple with the 4 boys had me raging, to the point where i even dreamt about them last night   was following them around IKEA with there little girl in a trolly    after thinking more about it i guess she can do what she wants if they have the cash then they gonna do whatever they think it right, doesnt mean i have to like it and i dont but like others have said a negative is a negative.
anyway there u go
lol
lou xx


----------



## ritzi

kittykat - yes infertility is all about want. BUT she is NOT infertile and does not require IVF. she and her dh are able 100% to produce a healthy child - they simply want to guarantee a girl 

Someone had said earlier maybe she is really depressed re not having a girl - that was where my counselling comment came from. i am depressed from loosing my babies and counselling has been the most healthy thing to deal with loss - and though we are doing IVF again that will never take the loss away. Lots of infertile people have counselling which enables them to adress the loss.....that is an appropriate thing to do if the lack of a daughter is affecting her life. 

the drugs thing others have mentioned - these are prescribable drugs which she was taking (possibly with no medical supervision) before she found her EU clinic. She was not prescribed them on an initial visit like you were - she had not found the clinic when her Dh was shown giving her that injection. 
either some other clinic must have prescribed them - knowing she was going abroad for sex selection - and that in my mind is irresponsible or she was taking them with no medical supervision - what if she had had an allergic reaction or OHSS?  

the delaying treatment for others is a possibility if sex selection becomes acceptable in the UK. Fertile couples using the clinics will delay lists - and some clinics already have lists where people wait for months for private treatment. Yes it's not happening yet but could become an issue.

ritz.


----------



## ophelia

Totally agree with Ritzisowner.


----------



## Caz

> the drugs thing others have mentioned - these are prescribable drugs which she was taking (possibly with no medical supervision) before she found her EU clinic. She was not prescribed them on an initial visit like you were - she had not found the clinic when her Dh was shown giving her that injection.


I'd be careful what you assume. I doubt they finished product showed scenes in the correct chronological order. I know there's a strong temptation to find fault with this couple in every respect but I seriously don't think it's fair to jump to conclusions about how and who treated them without knowing their whole story.

I wonder where we draw the line with PGD/PGS? My clinic offers it to couples without known genetic problems but perhaps with multiple failures or with increasing age. It's not done to ensure a healthy child is born so much as to ensure that healthy embryos are put back and give the pateint the best chance of pregnancy. I can see a time when it becomes almost standard practice because the implications to clinical sucess rates are fairly obvious. If you could ensure that every embryo replaced had (genetically at least) an equal chance of implanting and succeeding on to a viable pregnancy and healthy baby then I am not sure many people would turn down the opportunity.

C~x


----------



## AlmaMay

longbaygirl said:


> Have to say I am really shocked by all the comments here wishing the couple who went to Crypus a negative. A witch-hunt. Shame on you all.


I agree with Longbaygirl. Shame on you.

What's going on here? When did we all become self appointed gods who know all the answers and are in a position to judge other people from a TV show?

Everybody who wants a child "deserves" a BFP no matter what their circumstances.


----------



## Lorna

Well said Alma May.  I have refrained from posting a reply to this, as I fear I would get thrown off the board.


----------



## skyred

Well said, Keep it about the prog in gen, Im sure no ones judging just voicing an opinion

I agree the BBC scheduled is odd. But then again.............any topic will start a great debate where IVF is concerned.
They way they jump from day 1 to testing is unrealistic, but I suppose they think its been shown before.
They should have filled in a few gaps, ie where the couple got the drugs from.............I hope it wasn't from a clinic in the UK
How irresponsible.
No form of IF, IVF is easy. It shouldn't be made to look it.


If anyone wants more info on PGD the process/what happens IM me. 

Debs


----------



## Suzie

We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.” Paul Coelho


xxxx


----------



## A1979

I think maybe its time to take a step back and just remember that we are all here to support one another through a really really tough time that we are having and that programmes like last nights are created to cause discussion...good and bad.  

I feel terribly uneasy reading some of the posts on here and just think that it is going to cause real bad feeling between people and add to the stress levels of us all when we are particularly vulnerable either from just starting the process, going through the process or recovering from a BFN.

We all have different opinions, it would be boring if we didnt BUT its really hard to get points across via posts and some of the posts do appear to be getting a little fraught.  There is no use in having an online row with people.

Big deep breath, count to ten..and forget about the sex selection part of the programme. 

Lots of love, luck and babydust to everyone

Anna x


----------



## skyred

Anna wise words.
I'd like to say as someone whos has been through it I respect everyones opionons and no one has offended.

Debs


----------



## A1979

Debs 

Your little girl is beautiful...you must be very very proud.

Congratulations

A x


----------



## outspan3

I agree with sex selection for genetic diseases - why have a child with an illness if you can prevent it and give that child a good life.

What worries me about sex selection for a 'designer family' due to IF or not is : 'What if the child that you 'selected' doesn't meet up with the image that you have in your head? What kind of life would that child have? Would they always feel like a dissapointment? would they feel that they weren't something that they should have been? That lady summed it up last night with her attitude when some one asked her how she would cope with a tom boy? 

Is that anyway for a child to live?


----------



## ~ Chux ~

outspan3 said:


> 'What if the child that you 'selected' doesn't meet up with the image that you have in your head?


Unfortunately you don't need to have sex selection for that to happen. You only have to read the papers/listen to the news etc to know there are already children made to feel they are a disappointment or haven't turned out how the parents expected.

What about a couple who keep trying naturally yet get more boys instead of their much longed for girl? Isn't that boy going to be just as much of a 'disappointment' to them?

I think the minute you start having expectations of what your child/children will be you set yourself up for disappointment!

Chux xx


----------



## midlands lass

Anna i agree with your comments wholeheartedly  

We are all here to support each other through (what we all know) the incredibly emotional journey of a battle against infertility. Programmes like these are designed to raise a debate to get in the ratings and that is what they have done very successfully!

We all have strong opinions about IVF and other infertility treatments (from our first hand experience) but none of us can really believe that our opinions are more valid (or 'correct') than other people's...they are just different. Think about, as other people have said already, those large numbers of general public who say all IVF is 'wrong'...do we want to be blaming the families on the programme (and displaying those kind of attitudes that the general public have in being so judgemental and blinkered?)

Rather than becoming divided with arguments between ourselves can we just try to be supportive of each other?

Love to all


----------



## birdiew

I think the comment made that this really wasn't a programme about infertility has hit the nail on the head - it was showing what can be done in the field of IVF with modern medical advances - and i am sure that one of the aims of the programme was to stimulate debate about these issues - and if the BBC are reading this thread they probably be pleased at how well they have succeeded.
_
"I think the minute you start having expectations of what your child/children will be you set yourself up for disappointment"_

I wonder if some of the un easiness a lot of us feel about PGD for sex selcection stems from this - in that once people start "designing" their perfect child it alters the whole concept of having a child.

at the moment when you have a child - no matter how that child is conceived - it is still a case of the baby being a new person joining your family, someone you love purely because they are "your" baby, not because of anything they have done, or how they look.

By allowing selection of any physical charateristic, sex, height, hair colour etc the essence of this would change - it could be viewed as saying "i only love you because you are/have XXXX if it had been different I wouldn't have wanted you"

I know they say that screening embryos for genetic illness is creating designer babies, but it is in a different league to sex and hair colour, and as someone who is going through egg share at the moment i am fully aware that factor such as height, hair colour etc are taken into account - but not to enable the recipents to "design" their perfect child, but to try match the physical characteristic of the donor and recipent.

I personally would disagree with any form of preference selction that was not screening out a dibilatating illness - not on an individual basis, because at the end of the day if one woman chooses to select a girl it has no impact on the world - as other have said it is her choice, but once one person does it it opens the flood gates to all and what in one act makes no differene could be detimental if became comon place. I am sure many of you will have seen what happened in China when they resricted families to one child - thousands of baby girls were given to orphanages so their parents could "have another go fo a boy" - if sex selection had ben available those girls would never have been born, and the balance of a society would have been changed - I know that was in the past, but none of us know what the future holds.

Just because something is possible it doesn't mean it should be available

well thats my view - probably contaversial ans probably to be disagreed with - but thats what discussions are for right?

Sarah


----------



## ♥Saila♥

I don't believe in sex selection, however I'm not against the woman in the documentary doing it, it's her life. I do wonder what the world would be like if we could all design our own babies  

I did however cry my eyes out for Maisys parents when that pregnancy test was on their kitchen table I bet I wasn't the only person sat on the edge of my couch praying for a BFP for her. I really broke my heart when it was negative.


----------



## Neets

I agree. It was heartbreaking to watch that lovely couple with Maisie suffer their BFN. 
I did find it very hard to watch the mother of 4 boys speak quite emotively in the end about how hard it is after following the path of ivf to accept a negative. It seemed odd to hear this perspective from someone who was so fertile. My husband couldn't bear to watch it so I felt very torn.
I hoped that the friends of mine who watched this programme would have a better understanding of what we all go through but I am not sure they will. I do hope that the programme on repeated ivf treatments will be more sensitive to the experiences that we all understand as being ivf.
Think I'd have been better watching I'm a celebrity!


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Caz said:


> I wonder where we draw the line with PGD/PGS? My clinic offers it to couples without known genetic problems but perhaps with multiple failures or with increasing age. It's not done to ensure a healthy child is born so much as to ensure that healthy embryos are put back and give the pateint the best chance of pregnancy. I can see a time when it becomes almost standard practice because the implications to clinical sucess rates are fairly obvious. If you could ensure that every embryo replaced had (genetically at least) an equal chance of implanting and succeeding on to a viable pregnancy and healthy baby then I am not sure many people would turn down the opportunity.


PDG/PGS is not without its hazards. Not all embryos that undergo testing survive. There is often damage to the embryo or the embryo dies before transfer.

What the program did not show very well is how tricky it is to get a cell for testing, and how very few places in this country are able to do it. Yes this will increase as time goes by, but for those of us who have genetic problems that cannot be identified, or who do not produce large number of embryos this will never be an option.

Deb


----------



## AmandaB1971

Wow... I'm away for one day on a course and all your fingers must be on fire typing all this!! 

I watched it and I agree, the programme wasn't about the struggles of Infertility, the emotional and physiological traumas of treatment or the cost implications for most of us.  It was about the "science" of making it happen.  I think they started with PGD for exactly that reason and I guess if you ask the Producer he would say he started with perhaps the most scientifically "clever" aspect of tx (in their opinion) in order to hook the general public and ensure their series was a success.  This programme wasn't designed to help or inform those of us really going through it, it's entertainment for the general masses and that in itself may leave a bad taste in the mouths of many.

I'm sorry so many of you have been aggravated or upset, either by the programme itself or by the responses on here.  Depending on your IF journey and at what stage in that journey you are at, all of the programmes in the series are going to push different buttons for every member that watches it.  Infertility is such an emotive subject and there are so many members who have experienced such heartache and desolation as a result of treatment and losses they are bound to have strong and compelling arguments for both sides of this particular discussion.

I think the most you can do is accept your differences.  None of you are wrong, there are no right or wrong answers.  So far as sex selection is concerned personal experience, cultural and religious views will all influence your perspective.  

Take care all of you and may everyone that wants one get a 

Amanda xxxx


----------



## keemjay

eek what a lot of strong views on here 

I wasnt going to watch the prog but somehow got hooked in the first 2 mins 
I have to admit I was also guilty of grinding my teeth at the couple didnt feel complete cos they didnt have a girl...on the surface it looked like they had everything they wanted, nice house/cars and (shallowly)thought that on a list of 'wants' you could include a child of your choice. To begin with I thought they didnt deserve it..as with all these programmes there is always at least one success story and i hoped it would be one or hopefully both of the other couples. BUT at the end she seemed very humbled by the process, i thought she looked devastated and i think they learned a very valuable lesson in a very hard way..that you cant have everything you want in life, and sometimes you should just sit back, take a deep breath and count your blessings. Its a shame they had to put themselves through it but I feel ultimately she could see the pitfalls of what they'd done. I sort of pitied them for thinking they could pull it off. I did feel sorry for them, but not half as sorry as for maisy's parets, i sobbed my heart out for them.

kj x


----------



## Bekie

I really enjoyed the program but from a "look how far medicine has advanced" perspective rather than a real indeth look at infertility.  I really felt for the 2 couples who were having PGD for genetic purposes, i cried a lot at their results.  The couple who were having sex selection were controversial as proved by the discussion on here.  I have to say at the begining seeing them talk about nt having a girl and then when she said we've tried everything to have a girl, we've heard if your less fertile you have a girl, so we tried everything to mkae him less fertile, really angered me.  Especially when i see so many of you wonderful ladies trying so hard to have a family or extend the one you have, trying everything to improve your fertility, giving yourself every chance of making it happen.  However when it got to the end of the program i ffelt she'd learnt, you can't have everything you want, life isnt that easy and i feel it was a hard lesson for her too.  I also would like to answer a comment regarding "you really deserved it"  I often tell people i feel that they deserve it, but in the respect that everyone deserves to be happy, and we know that getting that BFP will make them happy, and that goes for everyone on this board.  It goes for the couple having PGD for sex selection they do deserve to be happy, and it was a shame they didn't get their BFP but they do have a lot to be thankful for xxx

Ofcourse these are only my opnions and i understad everyones point of view on this xxx

As a person who hasn't had any IVF treatment, the program really brought home to me the hurdles you face, at each step in the tx how things could go wrong and the nailbiting you must do each and everytime, from starting D/reg to stimming, to ec, then fertilisation then through to the 2ww.  I have to say i have the upmost respect for you all, you are incredibly strong people xxx

Bekie


----------



## Reb

Wow, hope we are all ok now    well said Mandy......we are all different and it would be boring if we did have the same views woudnt it. 

I guess this is not the place for the couple of the 4 kids to get fair hearing as such.  But it is understandable that many ladies on here will feel a certain way...after all....asking for a certain sex baby seems like asking for the moon on a stick to many of us couples with IF issues. 

I think its good that we can all air our views sensibly on here.  I was sad to see that the discussion seemed to bother some members, but, I can understand that I guess.  No one was trying to play God, just saying how they felt and I feel that should be respected, whatever the views are.  

There are not many people I would discuss IF issues with, however, I value and respect the views (including opposing ones) of all you ladies because you all know what you are on about.

Becca
xxx


----------



## AlmaMay

Ladies,

I'm glad we are all friends again!  Not that we ever weren't friends    

I enjoy debate very much.  This is such an emotive subject.  I remember when Robert Winston's first IVF BBC show was broadcast.  I thought when I watched it, "I'll never do that!" and here I am four fresh IVF cycle in and one FET.  

I was trying to say to say never say never.  We never know what choices we might make until we need to make them.  

All IF treatment is so hard but I'm ever so greateful for the technology that allows me to make these choices.  My parents couldn't make the choices I am making almost on a daily basis because it wasn't available.  

Take care my FFs and BFPs to everybody  
Almamay


----------



## AmandaB1971

Almamay

That is so true hun.  When we were first diagnosed with Infertility problems my dh said he would never consider adoption.  He was quite adamant and I respected his views.  We're now about to start our first IVF cycle and obviously all the fears of BFN's start to become stronger again and now he's saying well we could always consider adoption if IVF doesnt work for us!

I guess the point I'm trying to re-enforce from your post hun, is that nobody knows how they'll truly feel until they are in that situation themselves.  Things change for you depending on what options you've got available in any given situation.

Take Care all

Amanda xxxx


----------



## custard

Hi all!

I totally agree with the last two posts.  I think it was an easy programme to have a knee jerk reaction to.  The early posts reflected that.  But following further thought and reflection a whole series of other issues have been raised.  Here's to the spirit of great debate!!!

I must admit that before my dh and I started ttc we thought that if it didn't happen we wouldn't try tx and would move straight to adoption.  Now we are here I know that I couldn't live without giving it a go at least once.    I really didn't know how I would feel until I got here, so I don't really feel I can hold an opinion on someone else's life choices.  I am however worried about the implications if sex selection were to become legal.  I think it is a very tricky ethical question.

Roll on next week!!!!  BTW, I'm sure that they started with the most contraversial on purpose in order to get the debate going...  I don't think that a programme on IVF / ICSI would not ignite the same level of heated discussion, and therefore fewer people would be tempted to watch the next week.

Love and luck to all.
Jen


----------



## DizziSquirrel

&  

I thought tonights episode was really well done, seemed to show real emotions.

~Dizzi~


----------



## Martha Moo

Hiya dizzi

I agree with you there

My DH was in the bedroom with the volume on mute watching so i couldnt see him!!

Emxx


----------



## MrsRedcap

I enjoyed watching tonight's programme...As you say Dizzi it showed real emotion.


----------



## xxTonixx

Watching tonights programme had me in tears.  The couple who had the twins obviously really touched a nerve especially in the light of Panda's news today.


----------



## DizziSquirrel

Dh watched it with me - a couple of times he asked "was I ok"
Bless him , yes definatly pulled at the heart strings tonight, Of course we will still get people who will say we are messing with nature, we always will.

I was suprised to see natalie evans, and especially when Sir R.Winston made a housecall  

~Dizzi~


----------



## xxTonixx

The only ones who would call it messing with nature are the lucky ones who dont have a clue about how we feel!  Ooops sorry must get off soap box!


----------



## Lou F ❁

I really enjoyed it aswell but i do hope they show the pain for those who need IVF for being infertile for no other reason ie cancer, genetics etc will wait and see what next week brings
my heart goes out to them all tonight tho  
lou xx
p.s toni yep wish they would fall of there soap box and break there necks !!!


----------



## AmandaB1971

I really enjoyed it too!

Ax


----------



## DizziSquirrel

> I really enjoyed it aswell but i do hope they show the pain for those who need IVF for being infertile for no other reason ie cancer, genetics etc will wait and see what next week brings


SNAP!



> *In A Child Against All Odds*
> *Choosing Children*
> Selecting embryos to avoid genetic diseases
> 
> *Ice Babies*
> Freezing eggs and embryos for infertile cancer patients
> 
> *Make Me a Dad*
> Surgery to retrieve sperm after accidents and illness
> 
> *Cheating Time*
> What can be done to cheat the biological clock?
> 
> *Gift of Life*
> Egg-sharing can provide hope but others buy eggs abroad
> 
> *Whatever it Takes*
> Repeated IVF takes a huge toll. When should you stop?


CLICK HERE FOR LINK


----------



## Mrs CW

I cried all the way through.  Seeing others go through every bit of tx makes me cry - but the couple who lost their twin just absolutely did for me     

I think the series is proving quite interesting, by looking at the various issues IVF raises, instead of following people through IVF generally, but I do feel they've jumped into the issues a bit without setting the scene first by perhaps having an episode about how many people do it, reasons for doing it, pain of infertility, chances of success etc.  

My only problem with the series is that it is still skating over these issues a bit, it doesn't seem to get particularly in depth about them.  The interview where Winston suggested the problem of what to do if  Natalie Evan's ex had become infertile was a really interesting point but that was the first and only time it was mentioned. I didn't believe she was anything like as cool as she tried to sound when talking about her ex using her embryos and I was wondering what I'd have felt about that.   I'd also have liked to know what she felt about using DE with her new partner's sperm instead of her embryos made from her ex's sperm but her eggs.  Also no mention of using frosties after a partner's death and the issues for the child of this.  I remember signing the consent forms about what would happen if my DP were to die and thinking oh boy I think there's some real issues here but I wanted to start my IVF and signed.....

I think the prog is concentrating a bit too much on following the people through tx and 'getting to know them'.  Considering each week is meant to be about a different issue, there's still alot of time spent on filming ECs and ETs, and pg tests - which I realise is part of getting across how difficult and emotional tx is, but somehow it doesn't always seem to get this across very accurately (for example by failing to get across the agony of 2ww) and yet some of it feels a bit voyeuristic to me.  The constant filming of the patients worries me because it means you tend to judge the issues by the people involved and how they come across.  And watching all the 'waiting for phone calls' makes me cry too much!      

Like Katie I remember watching winston's first series and thinking if I'm infertile I'll never do that..........hey ho. 
I will be interested in the when do you stop programme, it was one of my reasons I didn't want to start but surprisingly, it became less of an issue for me not more of one the longer we went on, I began to know when I'd stop (if I hadn't got lucky)  ....I'd have found it fascinating before I got into tx. to understand these issues better, I was very panicked by worries that I'd never be able to.

From the trailer next week's looks a bit gruesome!  Maybe when it's men it makes us wince more!!!    

Claire


----------



## Rosie P

Brilliant programme as it really does show the highs and lows, even if those people are in different situations than most of us. 

I really cried when that couple's little girl didn't make it. I had been so happy that they had a boy and a girl as they don't have any chance to have any more of their own. Such happiness but also such sadness.  

It was also interesting to see my consultant on telly and how his hair style has changed!  

Very interesting and informative show though and leaves me flabbergasted at what wonderful things medical science can achieve. Gives me hope too!

I think it's quite good that they have started the programme concentrating on issues like genetic diseases and infertility caused by cancer as I think if they started with general IVF treatment the usual people who say it's 'playing god' and messing with nature' would have just dismissed it and not watched. Hopefully if those people watch the first couple they will keep tuning in and have some empathy for the emotional trials of infertility in general.

Rosie. xxx  

Claire, just read your post after I'd typed this. We said we would never go down an IVF route if we couldn't have kids, but after having a loss last year I think we'd do pretty much anything now. I don't think I'd know when we'd stop until we went down that road. Strange how getting so near to something makes you want it so much more - like dangling that carrot.


----------



## CAREbear1

I too cried when that poor couple lost their twin girl, as I was in a similar position 2 years ago and lost both my twin girls. My over-riding thought for the couple was 'its not fair!' hadn't they been through enough with the cancer etc. Just goes to show that life isn't and is very random at times. Good series, but I agree with you all it glosses over the all-consuming getting up early for scans etc and injections every day.

Claire, I may be wrong but I seem to remember that when Natalie was first in the news about her plight that her cancer was cervical and she had her womb removed, so wouldn't be able to use DE. 

I think it is so hard on her, but also tend to agree that her ex partner should have his part in the descision too. Its a shame there is no compromise in a situation like this.

I will be interested in the 'when to stop' episode, as I have just got out of hospital after third op for IVF complications and have now made the decision to stop and investigate adoption- and yes when going through IVF it made me mad when people said 'Why don't you adopt?'


----------



## jem100

I thought the program last night was 100 times better than the first one.  I too sat there with a box of tissues and cryed the whole way through it, even on the happy bits.  

It was such as shame that the couple with the twins lost their baby girl.  I was really pleased for them initially as they had the ideal result didn't they.  It really made me think about the whole issue of putting two embrios back instead of just one and all the risks involved with twins.

Has anyone looked on the BBC webite?  I've been too scared to look at the comments after how much it upset me last time.


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Can anyone tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that Natalie Evans was given the chance to have half of her eggs fertilised with Donor Sperm.... I know hindsight is wonderful and all that and I do feel very very sorry for her, but I do believe her ex-partner has to have a say in how those embryos are used.


----------



## CAREbear1

I agree with you Charlies-mum. Its such a sad situation as I said earlier there doesn't seem to be a compromise. I hadn't heard about having half fertilised with donor- that would have been ideal. I just remember that I think her womb was removed.
Its certainly generated a lot of discussion!


----------



## CJ

Loved this one, it was still very very sad but at least it showed people using the wonderful treatments we have for that desperate need for a baby, So awful for the couple who lost there little girl, they were so lovely, for the whole of there TX I was thinking god this is really what it is like, the waiting, phones calls, that having to just get through one step at a time .
Even though I knew the outcome (from t.v guide) I was still on the edge of my seat and felt a bit sick when they were waiting for there phone calls.

It was great to see the freezing side of things as we were lucky enough to have had 5 forsties to defrost and thankfully two made it and we had twins, so brought back all the phone calls and butterflies etc from that. Having gone through an FET ourselves and knowing the things that can happen we were so pleased for them that both defrosted and continued to live and growing into babies, we were given a 13% chance of getting pg and that was with having 5 frosties to start with so it just shows what a true miracle it all was.

Love CJ x


----------



## londonlou

I believe Nathalie Evans is infertile following cancer treatment. At the time she froze the embies it wasn't possible to freeze eggs.She had a boyfriend who gave her every indication he wanted to go through and fertilize her eggs. I think she still has a womb just no new eggs of her own.


----------



## ♥Saila♥

Very controversial the whole Natalie Evans scenario. I am honestly on her side though. I agree with some aspects of what Howard said however he should of though of this at the time. He signed the consent form and should stick to it.

I really sobbed when poor Maddy died, god love them. I thought they were a lovely couple!


----------



## ~ Chux ~

Wasn't Natalie Evans in court yesterday? I'm sure I heard she's at the European court and this is her last 'fight' so whatever they say will be the end.

I actually liked the way they used couples who were infertile through chemo etc - maybe it'll go some way to destroying the perception of women having IVF being those who want everything and put off children to have a career etc etc.

Chux xx


----------



## londonlou

sailaice said:


> Very controversial the whole Natalie Evans scenario. I am honestly on her side though. I agree with some aspects of what Howard said however he should of though of this at the time. He signed the consent form and should stick to it.


In legal terms, what I would be afraid of would be that if you an individual is no longer allowed to withdraw consent that this could have implications for women being restricted from access to abortion if their partner says so. I'm also not comfortable with the whole concept of not being able to withdraw consent. I feel sorry for Nathalie, but her personal situation belies a number of greater issues regarding consent.


----------



## ~ Chux ~

I have to say I feel desperately sorry for Natalie too but I don't think she should use the embryo's. The fact is they've split up so to then go on and have a child together especially after all that has gone on, just isn't right. Having said that I can totally understand her taking it as far as she can so at least she'll never look back and think "if only I'd fought".

Chux xx


----------



## ritzi

i feel sorry for Howard  

when you sign the papers for FET you have to state legally what you want done with the embryos in the case of death or mental incapacitation. you also have to sign together to defrost the embryos and agree on what you want done with them. it's a legal measure that is there for a very good reason.....

why should howard have to watch his ex and her partner bring up his biological child? why should the woman have more of a say than the man? the embryos were created together and all decisions for them made together - now that is not possible how do you decide who gets the embryos? 

i think it is very sad for all involved (most importantly for the embryos which will now be destroyed) but agree with the law that a man or a woman cannot be forced into becoming a (potential) parent because that is the wish of the ex. 

Of course this case is sad because natalie can never produce another embryo - i wonder if they thought of this when they were having tx and wonder why she did not use donor sperm as she was offered.....i know they probably never dreamed this would happen but even a pre-nup agreement could have saved all this heartache for them both. 

it's very sad for all involved but i think howard has a right to not have a child with his ex. like chux though i understand her fight and need for no 'if only's'.....


----------



## Caz

chux said:


> I have to say I feel desperately sorry for Natalie too but I don't think she should use the embryo's. The fact is they've split up so to then go on and have a child together especially after all that has gone on, just isn't right. Having said that I can totally understand her taking it as far as she can so at least she'll never look back and think "if only I'd fought".
> 
> Chux xx


I have to agree. 
A big part of me can see it from her point of view - part of me thinks he gave his "permission" to have children with her when he allowed his sperm to fertilise her eggs. I guess it comes down to when is life created? Is it at the point of implantation, at the point of fertilisation or later? 
One thing that must frustrate Natalie is that so many women can just go out and get pregnant without their partner's consent (and frequently do) and once pregnant the man has no say in what she does or does not do with the child - men are effectively be forced into fatherhood unwittingly all the time, and forced to do their bit to raise that child (and, yes, they should take responsibility for thier own contraception but I acknowledge that sometimes things are not always that straightforward).

Having said that I keep thinking that her ex is a right spiteful ******* for denying her this but, then again, he does have rights too should not be forced to create a child just to satisfy her need to have a genetic child of her own. She can talk all she likes about him not having to have anything to do with it etc. but it's not like he is a willing sperm donor - at the time he was her partner and they planned on having babies together. What is the difference between this and any other relationship breaking down and then the woman insisting the man be forced to impregnate her after the event? Also, I can't imagine that her relationship with him is ever going to be on good terms after all that has happened and that makes me worry about what relationship he might have with any child born, or what influences she might impart on that child as a result.

End of the day, she can still become a mother, either through adoption or donor eggs. Yes I know I'm probably simplifying things a little but I've always held the belief that being a parent has more to do with how you bring up the child than whether there's a genetic connection between you. 
I can totally understand why it's important for her to fight for this but I do wonder if she might be better putting her energies into accepting this is how it will be and exploring the other options available to her.

C~x


----------



## ♥Saila♥

When men donate sperm is it possible to go back after you donated it 6months later and say "I've changed my mind" ? What about the unsuspecting couple who for whatever reason ie male factor have embryos from this donors sperm and someone says sorry but the bloke who donated has changed his mind... Howard knew what he was getting himself into when he signed the consent form. 

Also, I am pretty sure Nathalie was offered the chance to fertilise half of the eggs with donor sperm and Howard at the time wasn't happy with that so that makes me more inclined to be in her favor she blindly refused donor sperm because he wasn't happy with it.

I agree it probably wouldn't be nice for Howard to watch Nathalie and her new partner bring up his child but I am sure Nathalie has said he can either have an active or none active role with the childs life.

I feel angry with Howard because if he said "don't fertilise the other half with donor sperm" he has robbed her of a chance of her own child even more.


----------



## Tina xx

I agree with what people have been saying about Howard. How can he say that he doesn't want to see someone else raising his child. If that was the attitude of more men, then there would be less babies being conceived in case the relationship falls apart and they don't want to see other men raising their child. How can he stop her from using their embryos when he is responsible for her not having any other embryos to use due to his opinion of her using donor sperm. Maybe the Fertility Clinics will now use this case as a warning to other couples in the same situation and hopefully reduce the chances of this happening again. 

She does have other alternatives, she must still have her womb to be able to use the embryos herself (and not with a surrogate mum). Perhaps if she looses her appeal this time, she might consider using donnor eggs with either donnor sperm or with a new partner. Either way, I wish all the couples the best and hope that they can all get on with their lives.


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Woah there ladies - who said for certain that Howard was responsible for not using donor sperm?... You are getting onto very thin ice here with this argument as there is no 'proof' or even suggestion that this was the case. Who is to say that it wasn't Natalie that refused or that donor sperm was actually offered?

Whilst I feel sorry for Natalie Evans, I do understand why Howard would not want his embryos used. To be told that a partner that you are no longer with, is expecting your child against your wishes, must be very difficult. Ending a relationship under any circumstance is hard.

DH and I had always said that if either of us died or we (god forbid) split up we would have the embryos destroyed. The nurse at the clinic was quite shocked but that was our decision and I would have been upset but prepared to live with it knowing that it was what we both wanted.


----------



## CAREbear1

Der, I've just realised that yes she must still have her womb, otherwise she wouldn't be fighting to use her own embryos!!!!   I blame my mush brain on my pain-killers !


----------



## ophelia

Hi

After the debate whether Howard didn't want Natalie to use donor sperm or not I was very curious to find out what the answer to that was and googled a bit. This is what I found:

" Press release issued by the Registrar.

Natalie and her then fiance' underwent a course of treatment from Oct-Nov 2001. 
Prior to commencing the treatment, the applicant considered whether she should explore other means of having her remaining eggs fertilized, for example by the use of donor sperm, to guard against the possibility of her relationship with her fiance' ending.

He reassured her that that would not happen and, on the strength of that assurance, she permitted all her eggs to be fertilized with his sperm. "

I feel this whole story to be very sad


----------



## Rosie P

DH and I discussed this issue in depth after the programme and he said that if it were him he would let me have the embryos as he knows what pain I've been through wanting a child and with treatment etc. (and that's only so far - there's probably years more to come). Obviously it's easy for him to say that now, who knows how he would feel if that actually happened (maybe I should record that on my dictaphone right now!). It's nice to know that he does have enough empathy with my fertility problems to think this way in the first place though.

Depending on your viewpoint you may feel that destroying the embryos is virtually the same as abortion, as some of those could be seen as potential viable humans (ok, some are outside the womb and the other would be inside - but some people take the viewpoint that an embryo is already a life). If she had already become pregnant (naturally or otherwise) he would not have the right to force her to have an abortion if he had decided to leave her. I'd like to think that if I had IVF and had say 6 embryos, and used 3 that were successful pregnancies, I would donate the other embryos to a couple going through the pain of infertility if at all possible. I know this would be pretty much the same as adoption, however if I could give those people a chance of a child, and the embryo the chance of a life, I would have no issue explaining to my own children and the children as a result of those gifted embryos why I had done that. 

Saying all that, I can understand the viewpoint of the ex, however what is unfortunate is all the men going out there having unprotected sex and fathering children they don't want, when that poor woman thought she was doing the right thing before her cancer, only for her dreams to be dashed. I think regardless of which viewpoint you take, we can all empathise with that feeling of having your hopes and dreams dashed can't we?

I think the jury will be out on this subject for a very long time.

Rosie. xxx


----------



## AmandaB1971

This is only my view.  But in light of Ophelia's post about his reassurances at the time, I think he should have allowed her to use the embryos now.  However, I do sympathise with both of them, it must be an awful situation to be in.  If there's a learning point to this it's not to put all your eggs in one basket (pardon the pun) if you are in this situation (hopefully we wont be)

Take Care

Amanda xx


----------



## MrsRedcap

Great programme tonight...and nice to see success stories...it gives you hope!


----------



## Mrs CW

yes, interesting one tonight - Although I've seen lots of film of ICSI happening with the needle going in the egg, (have you noticed how the media always use pictures of ICSI to accompany pieces about IVF   ) I was fascinated by the conversations with the embryologists while they were actually doing the embryology/ searching for sperm etc - especially the fact that when they slice the sperms tails they often get stuck to the bottom of the petri dish!  I thought that poor little swimmer wasn't going to make it at one point.  I knew my  boy's conception was incredibly delicate but I never realised the tails were squashed off - I thought they sliced them neatly! 

ooh I did wince when that poor man had his biopsy, cried as usual when they all tested, but what really had me blubbing was prof sir W visiting his first successful IVF mum and her daughter.....absolutely lost the plot at that point      he seemed very moved which he isn't often.  I thought that was very special to see that woman's IVF daughter now a mother herself...  lovely and so emotional.  

Claire x


----------



## CJ

I found this one fascinating, our boys are ICSI and apart from seeing the sperm injected into the egg of a few progs I never knew so much was involved. Silly as it seems now I didn't even know they got rid of the tails but of course they must do   has made things a lot clearer. Also thought that man was so brave, on that injection when he jumped   DH couldn't watch it. I reminded him of how lucky he was, as he just has to do his in a pot (and he doesn't mind doing it at all doesn't get  )  

I cried when they got there results but also when that ladies daughter was hiding her face and crying because her mum was not pg (the first time the did it) I thought that was so sad.

CJ x


----------



## sunfish

I cry everytime, and it just reminds me that I don't want to go down that track again. The programmes are very informative about the techniques and they do make it clear that chances of success aren't that great. I was upset too for the daughter.

love

Camilla


----------



## Jools71

Really enjoyed last night's prog as my dh had to have a biopsy as he has mild CF mind you I don't think he would of liked to have been awake during it 

Also we are having ICSI and we were really fascinated how its done cried most of the way through and was chuffed they both succeeded it gives us hope!!!

                  Jools x


----------



## *kateag*

I missed last nights and Im really gutted as I wanted to see what was properly involved in icsi. Do you think it will be repeated anytime?
x


----------



## DizziSquirrel

I missed it too, kate
I think its repeated about 01.30 tonight - Will have a look at a tv guide and get back to you 

~Dizzi~


----------



## DizziSquirrel

*Thu 30 Nov, 01:55 - 02:55 
BBC One * 
Make Me a Dad: Professor Winston looks at the amazing treatments that can help men become fathers. Wayne only has a small amount of poor-quality sperm, will an advanced form of IVF help?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/achildagainstallodds_index.shtml

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## ♥Saila♥

I cried last night when Marissas daughter cried because they got a BFN   It was very interesting to watch especially how they took their tails off   DH jumped when that man jumped   He said please tell me I don't have to do that  

As for Howard and Natalie Evans Thanks for googling that Ophelia   I know I had seen it somewhere. I can be opinionated but never argue my case without any substance. Howard I think has made an horrific decision, he has changed (I could say ruined) Nathalie life and if there was a petition to get him to be forced to relinquish those embryos I would sign it without a doubt. How could he of sat there and asked Natalie not to use donor sperm and then leave her 3/6mths later?? Horrific


----------



## DizziSquirrel

*Tonight*

*Cheating Time*
A Child Against All Odds, Tuesday 5 December, 9pm on BBC One


http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/achildagainstallodds_four.shtml

/links


----------



## ♥ M J ♥

hi girls

im watching this now (as i think alot of you all are)and if i remember rightly suzanne who got the neg so far is a member of FF(dont remember the user name )- suzanne if your reading this pls shout my way hun so i know im not going mad!

hugs

Mez
xxxxx


----------



## Reb

Oh this one really hit home for me.  Especially the lady at the Lister.  We have had 4 fresh cycles and you can see and feel each one getting worse.  When Robert Winston said that the lady was a successful business woman I though...'hello..here we go, the assumption woman seek a career first', but it I jumped the gun as he wasn't making that point at all and made it clear that the lady just hadn't met the right man until her late 30s.  This happened to me as it does with many other women.  She, like me, would have liked children earlier, but hadn't met the right man.  I really felt for her.

It was very interesting to hear Robert Winstons view of the lady in her 60s.

The lady with DE in Moscow was good to see.  She must have been so shocked to get that BFP after starting to bleed.  How wonderful.  DH said 'do they bother freezing embryos in Moscow? its that cold they could leave them outside'....typical.

Becca


----------



## Caz

I really felt for the couple from the Lister. Probably partly because I'm a Lister patient myself but mostly because I they just seemed like such a nice couple and I thought they really deserved a break. Suzanne if you are an FFer massive hello and huge hugs to you for your bravery. 

I am constantly amazed at the courage and determination I see in this programme. Yes, I know it exists (I see it every day on FF) but it must take a huge amount of guts to appear on TV, warts and all, in this sort of programme. I am very glad that, so far, the programme, has dealt very sensitively with the subject matter throughout, and that each of the couples whose stories are shown are shown in a positive light.

I too thought, at first, that they might go down the "career woman left it too late" route with this one but I was quite glad to see that they did not play this card at all and that it was clear that these couples were just ordinary people trying to make a family together in the face of some crappy odds.
Interesting to see how Robert Winston felt about the older woman having a baby. I must confess I was a bit like him in that I thought there is a point when you become too old but then getting older doesn't take away your desire to be a mother and, if science can do it, why should we deny it? We don't seem to bat an eye at fellas who become parents in their 50s and over - Rod Stewart, Des O'Connor, Mick Jagger etc. If they can do it why should it be frowned upon for a woman in her 40s to have a baby?

C~x


----------



## pobby

Gutted i missed it last night but i was at my friends adoption party which was fantastic! Still, would have loved to see it, especially as i'm at the lister.
I definately agreewith what you say about no-one minding if an older man has a child. My Dp (who is 33) has an 89 yea old father. They couldnt be closer. Yes, we feel sad becuase he is so frail and chances are we wont have him around to see our children (please God) grow up but DP has a wonderful relationship with him and he never felt like he was missing out by having an older father. That was the norm for him and it will be even more the norm in years to come

pobby x


----------



## SUSZY

Dear Girls
I have enjoyed watching these programmes too and if anyone lives near  Tarporley  Cheshire I have them all on taped on sky plus and you are welcome to come and view, its very emotive and the only criticism I would have so far (although it changed a bit last night) was that they show the positive pg test and then the next scene they show the baby being born with no mention of the days, weeks, months of worry after having difficulty conceiving- last night at least they showed her having a 12 week scan.
Its come at a good time for us and last night really hit a nerve as we are now considering going to CERAM in spain and have a ds who is 5 in Feb so it was interesting to see it.  Its amazing how our preceptions change because if I had watched this programme six months ago I would never have believed I would be doing the same.
There has been a lot on in the media recently esp the radio although have missed most of them.
anyway good luck to you all
take care
susie


----------



## AliR

It's always a reality check to see these programmes and yet i always find that Prof. Winston is very good and honest in his programmes.  

I have to admit that i do feel that resources should be pooled to women who struggle to concieve in their 30's and 40's and have always found it strange that it was allowed for a 66 year old woman to go through IVF. She was obviously very happy but as prof. Winston said she does seem to be in denial about the future- whats to say that something terrible wont happen to me in 5 or 10 years tho... saying that I am only 29 and if we pooled the resources for 30-40 i wouldnt be in the blessed position i am now.

It was lovely to see that despite a poor womb lining and bleeding the couple who went to moscow managed that BFP- I too wanted to know if they could freeze the other eggs though in case they wanted more siblings.

I'm beginning to waffle a little.... looking forward to next weeks installment

Ali
xx


----------



## DizziSquirrel

The Program has switched to *Weds night (13th)* for next week *and the following Monday * for the final week.


----------



## *kateag*

Last nights show, I felt, was much better than the previous weeks, not because of what they were concentrating on, but because of they showed the emotions, these ladies really said it how it is. I was so pleased when the couple got the bfp, and it showed me, as a sharer, how the recipient must feel. 

The couple who had 4 attempts, I felt so much for them. They were the typical couple, the man trying to lighten the load, and the woman really struggling to say what she wanted to the doc. It was also good to see Lister on the telly. 

I have to say, and im sure that there will be differences in opinion, the 66 year old who had a baby, I cant understand it. I am sure that the wanting for a child never goes away however old you are, but the life that that lady sadly lives, having to work 3 days a week even at her age to support them, how long will that be able to carry on? I know love means more than any material  thing, but I would hate to imagine that poor girl without a mother, and left in an orphanage. I know many people have older parents, my mum was 39 when she had me, but I do think there should be a certain age where ivf is stopped. Its an amazing nod to science that it did work for her, and it obviously happened for a reason, but i cant help but feel its wrong. sorry if I offend anyone, its not meant to. 

Im looking forward to next weeks episode, and I have my family watching so they can try and understand egg sharing that little bit more. 
xxxx


----------



## DizziSquirrel

Dizzi squirrel said:


> The Program has switched to *Weds night (13th)* for next week *and the following Monday * for the final week.


Dont forget to tune in to this weeks Show

*Gift of Life
A Child Against All Odds, Wednesday 13 December at 9pm on BBC One*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/achildagainstallodds_five.shtml​


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Thanks for that - I switched on to see Jonathon Ross prancing about instead. 
Most disturbing


----------



## DizziSquirrel




----------



## jem100

Anyone know what the series is focusing on this week?


----------



## Charlies-Mum

Its egg donation/sharing week I believe.


----------



## jem100

Thanks CM, should be interesting, I've been really hooked on all these programs, I'll really miss the series when it finishes.


----------



## DizziSquirrel

Jem I have left the link in my post above

I just watched it and felt all weepy, for the ladie who had the ovary donated! fantastic

Felt the guy who was upset cause he diddn't know his Donor father, was a bit odd/weird there was no background to how his parents/mother needed DS and why he feels as he does 

~Dizzi~


----------



## Mrs CW

So what did we think tonight girls and boys?

Woah that ovary transplant was amazing but not entirely sure about it as a field of research when only identical twins can do it......... 

Claire x


----------



## Mrs CW

Dizzi I agree - I just said to DP and DSS who I was watching with (I know, two boys and me!) I thought he had other problems, to be frank.  Lots of people don't know who their dad is (not that that is a good thing) but are not quite as tortured about this as he is.  

C x


----------



## DizziSquirrel

you worded it so much better than I C lol

I have heard of the ovary transplant before - I was just amazed and welled up 'cause it worked
maybe in another decade or 2 this will be a routine op! 
~Dizzi~


----------



## clc_girly

I just thought i'd say that if my journey got to that stage i would be at the front of the queue to donate my eggs.


----------



## Mrs CW

I did wonder though why the identical twin sister didn't donate eggs?

emmyloupink I agree it was less emotional this week.  Felt a bit like they filmed in a way that looked a bit like the programme was 'going through the IVF motions'  - because every week we've seen stims and EC and ET the producers seem to be getting a bit tired of the process and yet not really putting much in by way of discussion of the possibilities/downsides.  Not that I wish a failed cycle on anyone, but the fact that the  lovely welsh couple succeeded meant that they didn't really go into the issues of what it's like for donors when it doesn't work for them and perhaps it does for the recipient.  I know SRW was busy trying to tell us that this was a possibility, but if the prog's all about raising issues I just thought it all seemed to go very smoothly......

C x


----------



## CJ

I found this really interesting to watch as I'm about to start drugs to egg share (donate) I was a bit taken aback by the man who was created by donor sperm and about his feelings no knowing his biological parent and how it effected him now.
My Father die when I was 18mths and personally I have never felt anything missing or wanting. Everyone is different but I can't miss what I haven't had as I don't know how (if that makes sense).
I would guess if you have been brought up by someone you think of as your Dad and then find out about the donation part then it's a whole different ball game as you understand the father roll in your life. Still I really feel that family are the people around you that bring you up and are there for you all the time in every way.
My Father's Parents have tried to get in contacted with me  a few times but I haven't had contact with them since I was 18mths old so to me , and I hope this doesn't sound heartless, but they have no meaning to me (hope that sounds o.k, hard to put into words). 

For me it's not about genes, thats why i feel I can donate, and i would hope that any children created from my donated eggs wouldn't feel the need to find me as I would hope and wish them to feel content with the Mum who has grown them in her tummy,cared for them, looked after them when there poorly, been there every step of their life (and that isn't me)

Really felt so sad for the couple who went to Spain, really hope they are given so luck soon.

CJ x


----------



## jem100

I was really irritated they showed that artist who was upset about never being able to meet his biological father but didn't show the other side of the coin.  They just didn't seem to encourage sperm donation at all and I thought the program might actually have put off some men who might have considered donating.    

I felt really sorry for the couple who went to Spain, I agree, the woman seemed to me like she'd given up on having a family and was just going through the motions, she was trying to hide her feelings but you could see in her eyes she was devistated when it didn't work.  

Jem x


----------



## longbaygirl

I saw the programme and I do think that chaps reaction was a bit extreme. I think they searched him out becasue it made good TV. Afterall, why did they not show any people who had been adopted at birth or were the product of DE or DS and had no worries at all about the fact their biological history could not be traced.

I doubt that even he, if given the choice between existing ot not, would say I would rather not be here, and I wish my mum had not bothered. 

It is very sad he feels that way, but I think he is a rare extreme of how some people just  become obsessed. Even Dr Winston thought it was time he moved on................It is natural to be curious, but I doubt that many people would let it dominate their life in the way he has.  

Very sad for the lady that went to Spain - I just wanted to shout 'don't give up' at the screen.


----------



## Georgie28

I agree with all of you regarding the chap that could not find his biological father, I thought it was very bad that they decided to show this especially as that was 30 years ago and so much has changed.  Personally, I thought he came across as a very angry man, angry at life - I felt very sorry for his real mum and dad, the people that brought him up and gave him his identity.  

I cried so much when the little Welsh guy started crying after she had just given birth - he seemed so genuine and sweet.

Very sad for the lady that went to Spain, I thought her husband knew it would be negative.  Like you said they had given up.


----------



## Tillyp

I sat and watched this last night with my other half and felt so so sorry for the lady going to Spain.  Ive got the feeling her husband had said to her that this was it, last go, but I dont think she is ready to stop - I really wanted her to be pregnant.

This may be just me but I feel a bit worried about the welsh couple, as the guy said that as much as he loved his step daughter he wanted his own flesh and blood, I would be worried if I was her that he would favour his own daughter a lot more ........... I hope im wrong.  Also I thought that they were a bit blase about getting two lines cos for a few minutes I thought it was negative cos of the lack of emotion showed. Again maybe thats just me?

The ovary donation was amazing!


----------



## Snowdrop

I was absolutely amazed by the ovary transplant too.

I have egg shared twice so when I saw that chaps reaction I felt absolutely sick, but then me and dp talked about the reasons we did donate, to give a couple the chance of a baby.  I still believe that I did the right thing, but I do worry now that many people will be put off donating.  The way I look at it we are providing an ingredient to a recipe, it is the parents who bring up the baby and who will influence the childs life.

It was such a shame for the couple who travelled to Spain, we know all too well how hard the journey is and then waiting for the phone call that will change our lives.  

I don't know about anyone else, whenever they are waiting for the calls, I get all nervous!

Snowdrop x


----------



## britgrrl

The bit at the end with the couple who donated eggs really brought me to tears. What a sweet man - although I hope that Chelsea doesn't grow up feeling that her father-figure didn't love her as much as his biological daughter. 

Although I agree that that one man's reaction to not being able to trace his donor father was extreme, I think it is a real issue when people cannot trace their donors. I found a blog a while back from a young australian woman who feels similarly angry. In her case she does love her father very much, but she feels that her biological information is hers, and that information about the donor should also be shared with her. Having seen enough stories like this, I do think that 'known donor' legislation is the right thing to do - the right thing for the future children rather than for the current potential parents. We will just have to work harder to help people realise that even if children who arise from their donated gametes can trace them, that does not give them parental responsibility, and that it is still a totally wonderful gift.


----------



## cleo31

The ovary transplant was amazing!! I just couldn't believe she could go through all that and then get pregnant! If they can do that why can't they help all us?

Cleo xxxxxx


----------



## Rosie P

I found this weeks programme once again very interesting. Firstly with the woman who did egg share - it made me wonder how I would feel if I gave half my eggs away and it didn't work for me, but those eggs could have possibly given someone else a child. Potentially heartbreaking situation. Saying that I have a friend who is in the situation of the identical twin, and once my fertility journey is over have no reservations about donating eggs for that purpose (if they are still any good to anyone by then!). It was nice how she was concerned that the eggs would work for the other person, even if they didn't work for her.

Also, the other woman who went to Spain - my heart went out to her. She was trying so hard to hold it all together and I think her reaction showed just how hard it is and how heartbreaking. Must be even harder when you have a TV crew there, and she was trying so hard to hold it together when she probably really just wanted to break down completely.

The identical twins were very interesting. I know identical twins who have gone through that, when originally just one had and the other was going to donate eggs. Unfortunately after 1 cycle of IVF the other twin went through it as well and now the only option is egg donation. Again, I'm heartbroken for them. I dare say this is why  those girls on the programme went for ovary transplant, as the IVF drugs ands the time taken if it would have taken a few cycles may have meant the other twin started to have an early menopause too. It was amazing to see it work and to see her pregnant. It makes you wonder if that would be available in this country for identical twins in the same situation?

And finally the artist. Having been raised by my step father never knowing my real father since the age of 2, I can see both sides of the coin. All my life I wondered what my dad was like, if I had brothers and sisters and where I came from. My step dad actually adopted me, so I wasn't able to contact my natural father until age 18. At 18 I didn't as I was scared to. I ended up finding him at age 24 to find I have 2 lovely half sisters. I am very close to my sisters and they really are a lovely family. However, I don't call my natural father 'dad' as I never grew up knowing him and don't feel as close to him as to my step dad. It's easier with my sisters as they were younger and we have been able to bond since then, so I do feel close to them. I think it's only natural that someone wants to know where they came from, although unfortunately many people don't get the chance. I do agree with sperm and egg donation though, and even though anonymity has been removed, I don't personally see this as a bads thing. I for one would have no problem explaining to my own children and to a person who turned up on my doorstep aged 18+, why I had chosen to donate eggs. I think with fertility problems becoming much more common, I think that things like egg and sperm donation and IVF will be better understood by the next generation and not be as taboo as it seems to have been in the past. It is a great shame however that people are being put off donating sperm and eggs when it shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of.

Anyway, these are just my opinions and it's very interesting to read other people's.

Rosie. xxx


----------



## Nicky1 ☺ ☺

Did anyone happen to tape Wednesdays episode?  I was out and forgot about it but would really like to watch it, (I'm doing ES) Or does anyone know if/when it will be repeated? 

Thanks x x x


----------



## Rosie P

Hi. It was repeated yesterday morning at 1.35am unfortunately. It may be worth emailing the BBC and asking if they plan to repeat the series?

Rosie. xxx


----------



## Twinmummie

Wasn't that a happy ending !! 
The tears were rolling down my face made me think that those frosties are going back asap. I have not giving up. The wonderful Mr.Taranissi does it again xxx


----------



## clc_girly

I cried from beginning to end of tonights episode!


----------



## bfbc

How emotional was that.  So heartbreaking to watch Dee go through all that and then have to deliver other people's babies.  I really hope she gets her family too.

Eve


----------



## Smurfette

Hi,

Sorry I haven't posted here before, but see you are discussing A Child Against all odds. Did Yasmina get pregnant in the end.  My damn phone rang and I missed the happy ending obviously?
Were they frosties?

Thanks!


----------



## bfbc

Yeah...she ended up pregnant with twins.  They didn't say if they were frosties or not (I don't think anyway).


----------



## jem100

I cried all the way through this time, Dee was amazing, I don't know how she managed to carry on being a midwife whilst going through all that.  

The program really was heartbreaking but I was glad they showed more of the emotional side of infertility this week.  Hopefully it might help people understand the ups and downs of how we all feel a bit more.


----------



## ♥ M J ♥

hi ladies

i watched last night and i felt so much for Dee as she is a midwife and can not avoid preg ladies or babies

i think all the couples that were filmed for this were very brave and get my respect as i dont tink i could have done it

for me last nights shows hit ome cos we have decided enough is enough and it was so hard to see others facing our pain of having to think or even end tx
hugs

Mez
xxxxx


----------



## Martha Moo

Hiya

I  completely forgot about it being on even tho i was chatting about it yesterday afternoon   

I know its normally repeated does anyone know when this episode will be repeated?


Thanks

Emxx


----------



## Smurfette

Thanks for the replies girls. Fair play to both of them for persevering. I have to say last nights programme struck me the most and I did cry a lot which I han't really done for the rest.

Heffalump, I saw it was to be repeated Wed 20th at 1.55am,worth taping I think.  I get BBC NI, check the listings for your area.


----------



## Smurfette

Actually if anyone is taping technically it is wee small hours of Thursday!


----------



## natalie34

I thought last night's was the best of the series - I cried from start to end.

I'm pleased that the program was brave and realistic to show that sometimes it doesn't work after many many attempts. I'm pleased it also showed that sometimes you have to try time and time and time again. It really highlighted the heartache we all have to go through whatever our circumstances to try and have that much wanted family.

I was really pleased for Yasmina and her DH. I truely wish Dee and her DH all the luck in the world - what a lovely couple they were.

Natalie xx


----------



## ♥emmyloupink♥

i taped last weeks one if that helps?? x


----------



## Grumps

An odd request this one, but by any chance has anyone taped the series and would be willing to send it abroad? I live in Turkey and so have not been able to see any of the series though i would love to. If anyone has taped them (VHS or DVD) i would be forever grateful to anyone willing to post to Turkey.....and will send Turkish Delight in return  
If i had a braincell in my head i would've asked a family member to do it right at the beginning....but i haven't    i blame the drugs...... 

Love
Grumps
xx


----------



## overthemoon.com

I watch this every week. Cry   all the way through it but still HAVE to watch..

Having never attempted IVF (YET) I didnt know the ins & outs of it..I cant beliece there is so much involved..I mean I know its tricky stuff but there are so many decisions to make if things dont turn out as planned..

Bless all of you x x x x x


----------



## Mummytoone

Hi

I was fascinated by this weeks programme as bizarrely it was a carbon copy of me.

Went to The Lister and PGS done by Debbie and then went to the ARGC where i had the immune stuff done, really, really weird to watch and good for Rich to watch as he obviously doesn't know about the stuff I had done. I remember that genetic screening phone call very well! Utterly terrifying!

Its repeated at 2am I think tomorrow/tonight, so I am going to tape it to keep.

The whole series has made me very grateful indeed that the miracle happened for me after feeling as low and desperate as those poor ladies.

A great TV series

Lou xxx


----------



## ♥emmyloupink♥

hi grumps we go out to turkey allot  as we have a house there (calis) nr fethyie what part are you from? x emma x


----------



## Grumps

Hi Emmyloupink

Well small world isn't it   we're in Fethiye! My mum and dad like Calis beach i always take them for the day when they're visiting, though Olu is our stomping ground really (cos of DH's work). I love it here, have been here nearly 4 years now, though have to say it's strange at this time of year, not very xmassy   still i shouldn't complain, the sun is shining today   still chilly though! You;ll have to let me know next time you're over, we'll meet up for a raki  

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Love
Grumps
xx


----------



## ♥emmyloupink♥

hi grumps..thats great your so close    do you go on calis_beach forum..they posted some great pics of the sea front..some restaurants have really tried to make it look christmassy but i know what you mean,dh wants to go to turkey for xmas next year but i love my xmas tree and the traditional bits and bobs! lucky old you to live there tho we love it!..raki sounds good ..car cemetery ?!! argh  wanna be there now ..hmmp not fair!! have a fab new year  
x emma xx


----------

