# Questions on moral / ethical issues regarding anonymous donor egg IVF



## Anna Brown

Dear fellow travellers on this - often awful - journey,

After a good three years in fertility treatment, including numerous IVF's and a miscarriage, my husband and I are now thinking about donor eggs abroad, most likely in a country with anonymous donation. There is apparently nothing wrong with either of us, and my doctor says my eggs are too good for donor egg IVF to be approved in the Netherlands, where we live. We have done the required course for adoption, too, but decided not to put our hopes on this path as the legal framework and the reality of the waiting lists and my husband's age will make it virtually impossible for us even to adopt a five year old. Hence the thought of going abroad...

However, I am trying to find answers to a whole range of questions before I can make a decision. My husband (atheist, in case this matters) says he supports whatever I choose. I was brought up fairly Christian but have been an agnostic for over 20 years. Still, I think my background is a major factor in the thoughts that keep me occupied now. None of this message is intended to offend or make anybody question what they are doing. Feedback from any of you who have resolved any of the below for yourselves would be most appreciated, though! Here goes:

How can it be "right" to (meaning right enough for me to do it, not "ideal" as in an ideal world none of us would have reason to be on this forum)...

1. use eggs from a 20+ year old donor? - I was very idealistic in my 20's (partly still am, I guess) but can't say - from today's perspective of 40+ - that I really knew what I was doing. How can I expect a 20 year old student to grasp the magnitude and consequences of her action? Is it my job to worry about it?

2. bring yet another human being into this world by means of donor eggs, considering our planet is overpopulated as it is? - Ever since my miscarriage, I have had a hard time with the concept of there being a plan that is God's and that is good. But looking at it from a statistical point of view, this planet would be better off with fewer people on it... Maybe so many of us having problems to conceive is nature's cruel way of balancing things out? (Why me? Why any of you? There is no answer to that... Does it entitle me to go and find a (hu)man-made solution to my own dilemma?)

3. spend thousands of whatever currency to try to create one child (our child) when this amount of money could save tens, if not hundreds of children from starvation or prostitution or any other horrid fate in a developing country? - I realise not everybody feels the need to donate thousands to help children elsewhere and our donations tend to be in the tens and hundreds, but the idea of the fortune spent on fertility treatment (by this point and in future) makes me so very aware of the absurdity of it all.

4. make another human being by taking a bit from somebody else, if my own body can't deliver bits that are good enough? - I guess this is the ultimate question and if I had peace with this one, 1 - 3 would fall into place...

Oddly enough, I don't seem to be concerned about what this child - if we go ahead and if are lucky - would look like or be clever, or whether s/he would feel like my own and would be loved enough. Not that these aren't real questions, they just don't seem to be mine.

If any of you feel you can share your views on any of the points above, I would be most grateful. 
I understand that I am asking a lot and that anybody who wishes to respond might not feel comfortable putting this onto a big forum, so if you prefer to send me a private message, please do this instead. (I have been told we should not give out private addresses here but if you leave a message for me, I am happy to provide a private email.)

Anna Brown


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## Camberwell Nell

Hi Anna, 

I think it is brave of you to ask such big moral/ethical questions of yourself and of others.  My story is similar to yours in that despite having apparently good quality eggs/embryos after 10 years of ttc, including multiple ivf attempts and a miscarriage we still had no success and decided to explore other options, well had already started really, but the more we learnt about it adoption was not looking very likely or straightforward for us either, and so eventually we went for anonymous donor eggs ivf. It wasnt that the anonymity was important to us so much, as that the waiting lists here for donor eggs are very very long, and I was already 40 by now and a negative blood group. Although not a practising christian over the years I had struggled to come to terms with my infertility on a spiritual level, and to find some sort of acceptance. However, I could not find this acceptance in my heart, and knew that I could not resolve this issue peacefully within myself though I tried ! and have a wonderful marriage and very fulfilling career. Before making the move to donor eggs, I felt very conflicted about all kinds of associated issues, but in fact both of us were in the middle of a consultation here with our fertility consultant, and I think we both just clicked/realised at the same time, that for us it was right to go this extra step, and a lot of the questions just didnt seem important anymore. To look at some of the questions you ask. 
I did not worry about the donor really. the way they stimulate donors is so much more gently than they would someone doing ivf for themselves. we had two attempts and both times they got 5 eggs or less from 2 different donors, so the impact on her body, and especially future fertility is not compromised. If you mean the magnitude of being an unknown genetic parent to an unknown child, then I guess there are so many men out there in that position, either through sperm donation or just good old fashioned irresponsible sex, that this ethical side to things was not so important to me. It is the kind of thing I can imagine doing myself as a student.  
Personally, I dont buy the whole overpopulation argument. I would be absolutely happy to adopt if the path was more straightforward, but as you know, its not as easy as people think and lots of people think it is unethical to adopt from abroad. I think the planet can support us all well if we treat it well. 
I do agree that its hard to accept spending so much money on this. pretty twisted in fact ! we are not well off, and every penny of our savings have been spent on this....but then gosh, people spend that money on a car  !!! or other material stuff. surely thats a lot more disturbing.

I'm now in a very different place than I was before I started the donor egg treatment, as I am 35 weeks pregnant, and just feeling my baby kicking me as I write this. without wishing to sound too much of a happy hippy . I feel like I'm supposed to be here, having this baby and I'm so glad we went ahead with treatment. I hope you find the right path for you and that mine and others stories and input will help you come to the right decision for your family. 

nell


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## suitcase of dreams

Hi Anna,

As Nell says, brave - and challenging - questions. 

I am only at the start of the thought process myself, I've had 3 IUIs, 2 IVFs/1 FET with own eggs and a miscarriage in the last 12 months and am beginning to face the fact that I may not be able to conceive using my own eggs (I'm 38 and no known fertility problems but perhaps my eggs are just getting too old...)
I have another fresh cycle in January with my own eggs, but I also have a (anon) donor egg cycle booked in for April - so if I am not successful in January I have some very hard decisions to make. 

Things are doubly complicated for me because I am single which raises many other questions which I won't even begin to go into here, but if it helps, here are my thoughts to date on the questions you are asking yourself:

Whilst I agree that most of the young women who donate eggs overseas probably do so primarily for financial gain and without much serious thought to the consequences, I tend to feel that this is their decision and not mine, and that they have a right to make that decision. And even if primarily for the money, I can't imagine it is a decision lightly taken - not considering what you have to go through with the injections/drugs etc. Therefore I will just be eternally grateful that they are prepared to do it, for whatever reason, and accept their eggs with my sincere thanks. 
The issue I personally struggle with most around anonymity is whether it is right for me to deny my future child the opportunity to find out about/even meet their genetic mother in the future. Maybe they won't want to, but I wonder if I need to give them the chance if they do want to. Particularly since the amount of info given about the donor is so limited...

Your questions 2 and 3 are I think sort of connected, and are related to whether we as individuals should spend so much money and energy on bringing one child into the world when there are thousands of children who would benefit from that money and energy. I see that there are a small number of people, all of whom I admire greatly, who are able to truly put themselves to one side and who go out and do great good in the world. They build schools and orphanages in developing countries and put every bit of their time and money into changing the lives of other people, and they get all the fulfilment they need from this. I have accepted that I will never be that sort of person - I do what I can in smaller ways  (eg. I'm a governor of our local junior school, I sponsor a child in Vietnam, and I donate regularly to two other charities) but at the end of the day, for me fulfilment will come with my own family - I have made peace with myself on this one, I do my bit but I accept that I can't (or won't) change the world and I kind of feel that I deserve to find my personal happiness and fulfilment too. 

Put down in black and white this sounds a little selfish and I perhaps haven't articulated it too well, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel I can achieve a good balance between the bigger picture (the environment, population statistics, global poverty etc) and the individual picture (my own life, my happiness and fulfilment) and I don't see that the two are mutually incompatible at all. 

Funnily enough I haven't really given any thought at all to the final question, which seems to be the one most troubling you. Back to how I feel about donors I suppose, I just feel terribly grateful that there are options open to me and that if my own eggs continue to fail me there are women out there who are willing to donate a part of themselves to help me acheive my desire to have a child. 
My biggest concerns are for the child and whether they would feel somehow 'lost' because they would have so little information about their genetic origins. But then I wonder to what extent genetics matters - if I am the one who carried them for nine months and who brings them up, loves them, cares for them, looks after their daily needs - is that enough? Or will they want to know more about the egg which made them possible in the first place? So my concerns are more about the anonymity issue and how that relates to the child, rather than thinking it is wrong to 'interfere with nature' in the first place - I tend to feel that if it's possible for me to get the help I need to conceive, then why would it be wrong for me to take that help when it is offered? Just my personal opinion though

Anna, I hope this response has helped you in some ways, it has certainly helped me to think through some of these questions for myself. There are no easy answers here, and at the end of the day I suppose we all have to find our own path through, I hope that things work out for you, wishing you a very happy 2009, 
Suitcase
x


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## Be Lucky

Dear anna.i am waitin 2 hav de treatment.i was orginally considerin goin abroad and had a date in april 09 but then rethought and decided 2 go on a wl 4 de in clinic in uk. Wanted the child 2 hav chance 2 hav much possible info re genetic mother even though it prob a longer wait in uk.also would feel less anxious hav treatment in uk i think and felt that sumtimes though not always ur payin 4 perhaps a woman who has male fertility treatment 2 hav ivf in uk.i would not judge any1 4 going abroad and the clinic we went 4 a consultation 2 was very good.i am from a catholic background and have struggled.am strugglin with thes issues.re usin donor eggs.u wouldnt think twice bout usin a donorliver or kidney if u needed.i know infertility is not life-threatenin but sumtimes it feel like im dyin inside.good luck and happy new year berniex


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## warbabe

Hi,

I've also recently had to consider donor eggs and posted some questions a while back on here around DE V Adoption. Feel free to take a look (http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=169745.0) What is different to your situation, is that I hadn't ruled out Adoption.

I was brought up Catholic.

As with others, what I am going to say is my opinion and I hope does not offend anyone. 
Q1 - I never considered this, and I personally would not worry about it. I worry about enough, to add something else to my list!
Q2 - Again I haven't considered the over population issue. I do have a belief that what is meant to be will be though. I told my DH at 21 that I don't think I will be able to have children, and although we have unexplained IF it is looking like this will come true. 
Q3 -I have had all my treatments (bar 1 IUI) on the NHS so far. My thoughts on the money front, was that why spend thousands on something that wasn't guaranteed to work to have a child that wasn't biologically mine when there are many children out there needing parents through adoption. As I said my situation is different, and I know that adoption isn't guaranteed also but much higher.
Q4 - This is the one I struggled with, and you might have guessed but I have decided that DE isn't the route for me. This may sound really weird, but I couldn't get it out of my head the thought that the baby that would grow inside me wouldn't be made from me. It would feel wrong for me. I was worried that I couldn't come to terms with that, and it would always have effected my relationship with the child. This wasn't the only reason to not choose this route, there were many more.

It is a very personal decision and I definitely don't think DE is wrong, but it just wasn't right for me.

Good Luck in what you choose. 
Warbabex


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## Anna Brown

Thank you all for your messages! I've been in PM contact with some of you but Warbabe's post made me think I should say something in public...

Indeed, I think the issue is different if you know there is another alternative (like adoption). If we could have adopted a youngish child, we would have done so years ago. Even an older child would have been an option had it not been for my stepdaughter, who is 11 and with us regularly. Her trying to come to terms with a five or six year old adopted sibling who is taking three years of biting and kicking to settle into her/his new home - and maybe not even then - is a risk we've decided not to take. It was more of a theoretical risk anyway as our chances of being considered for such an adoption were very, very slim (I mentioned my husband's - tender - age of almost 44 and the enormous waiting lists in this country). Interestingly enough, most people have a very rosy perception of adoption (I don't mean you on this forum, but people who have never really considered it)... If adoption is possible for any of you, I wish you luck and patience - especially Warbabe as it seems imminent (or has already happened?).

In a way, it's been a relief to close the book on the adoption question. Simply because it's a decision that still doesn't feel wrong - and I therefore conclude it is right. So in our case, DE is the final option. Medically, legally and for me personally. When I started the whole process of fertility treatment (first tests, then IUI, then IVF), I always assumed that one day I would come to a line that I couldn't cross. I used to think that line might be IVF but found it wasn't, not even close. Now I can tell clearly that I'm near that line, I just don't know which side of DE it is. Science doesn't draw a line at DE - if I think about the US, for instance, where you might choose to have another woman carry your baby for 9 months - even, I assume, a baby created from an egg from a donor - and still have it as "your" baby... Is this a confusing scenario for the child(ren)? I am quite certain this is on the other side of the line for me, but then again, I'm not there, am I?

All I need to do now - ha! - is trying to work out the lay of the land in the grey zone of DE. It's good for me to read that so many women out there don't worry about my first question (the 20+ year old donor). Very clear headed. I admit, partly I conclude this because I have seen few to no messages about this here or elsewhere, and as it's permitted by law in a number of countries, it seems to be considered a legitimate process. Partly it is because some of you have said so in answer to my questions. For the other questions, I was particularly touched  by Suitcase's view on having found peace with the idea that there is a small number of truly unselfish people out there who do big things for others and but that for her, it was okay to do things on a smaller scale. I do things on a smaller scale, too, and will see if I, too, can make my peace with that...

I'm finding the thoughts that have been posted here very helpful, so if there are more of you out there willing to put your views in writing, please do so - or send me a PM!

Anna


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## Dominique123456

Hi Anna,

First of all, I'm really glad that you have put your dilemma in writing.

I am a 29 year old egg donor. I gave half of my eggs to another lady and used half for my own cycle. We were both lucky and conceived. I used a sperm donor.

Although you feel that you would not have been able to properly give your decision thought when you were that age, I feel that I must agree with 'suitcase of dreams' that it's up to me to make that choice and research and prepare myself for the consequences of how I would feel. Etc. I had many conversations with my partner and I thought it through deeply and I didn't feel I was giving away some of myself to a stranger. To me that woman had been struggling to conceive and deserves a family as much as I do. I am blessed that I am able to give her that chance and I have no regrets. In the UK, I am not an anonymous donor. One day her child may wish to make contact with me so I have also prepared myself for that.

Your other questions have also crossed my mind at one time or another. The main thing I find interesting, is that you didn't have qualms about bringing a child into this world if it was conceived without assistance, so why is it different if you need a little help? Do you really feel that god wants you to be unhappy? Why did he give you the desire for a child and the love you will give it already grown in your heart? My aunt for example is now 55 and she has never had children and genuinely doesn't have the urge to and is very happy. Why would god 'punish' you by making you want a family so much but then not allow you to find a way to achieve that?

In my view, the world is overpopulated (but there are plenty of resources, humans are just selfish and don't share) and the earth is being abused - but surely one of the biggest reasons for learning to take care of this world is for the sake of future children. If no one had any more children then we wouldn't bother trying to help the world at all. We can help if we bring our children up to be responsible and to help to tackle the worlds problems little by little. On another note, each country needs new generations to ensure that the elderly are looked after (both financially and through emotional support within families).

My only personal concern with your situation is the use of an anonymous donor, through all my research and conversations with donor conceived and adopted individuals, all without hesitation would prefer to know they were donor-conceived and would like to have the option to be able to contact the biological donor if they felt like it (many choose not to). This forum has extensive discussion on the subject and I would strongly recommend that you read through the debate before you get started: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=29148.0

If your concern is that the child might love you less, or see you as less than their proper mother then you would be really surprised. My sister is adopted for example and although she loves her parents deeply she felt curious about her biological family, so she found them and had made 'loose' friends with them but she 100% loves her real parents without question. With an adopted child there is a sense of rejection or abandonment and a need to know why they were adopted but with a donor conceived child they know that they were a precious gift and not unwanted at all. I believe they still have a right to have access to information about their donor because it can help to answer questions for them (whatever they might be). I have cousins (brothers) who have different fathers but they don't know it and even though they are now in their 40s they have always felt different from each other and one in particular has had many identity changes and crises, that I think are part of feeling a bit different. If their mother had been open with them, any differences could have been accepted and explained rather than the individual blaming themselves thinking that there's something wrong with them.

I hope you don't mind me speaking my mind, I just wanted to open about the primary ethical issues that I researched about being an egg donor and using donor sperm. I definitely wish you the best of luck and feel that any loving home deserves a child.


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## Be Lucky

Dear all i think age is definitely a factor.warbabe i hav spent £1000s tryin 2 hav a child that was biologically related 2 me without success.i had a mental health problem and was not well enough 2 start tryin 4 a child till i was 36.u will c from my profile what happen next!im sure sum of u other ladies will hav spent a lot as well.also difficult for older ppl 2 adopt in this country.is ther a load of children 2 adopt in uk?.not many younger children.mor older special needs children?is that not correct?i admire ppl who can do that and i would hav 2 manage if i gav bir th 2 disabled child.but my life was disabled by my illness for a long time ro wouldnt choos 2 adopt a disabled child.sorry if that  sound selfish.sure the catholic church find adop tion more acceptable but years ago most ppl wer  married before they had their children baptised in rc church but now a lot of ppl dont consider that important but still want their children bgt up catholic.interestin warbabe that u found it difficult carryin a baby not genetically yours but isnt adoption bringin up a child that isnt genetically urs.perhaps society c it as mor acceptable.but de is the only way i will prob now experience pregnancy.i suppose anna it depends how far u prepared 2 go 2 hav a child.dominique.thanku 4 been a donor.i hav never  "talked"2  1 before!ur post made me realise im doin the right thing in goin on waitin list in uk even though i had date for april abroad.still feel shaky occasionally.wonder if i could pm u sumtime.happy new year!berniex


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## Dominique123456

Aw, thanks Be lucky, glad I could help. If you have any questions you'd like to ask me feel free to pm me 

I should also say sorry to Anna, who after pm'ing she clarified that she isn't planning to keep the fact that she had help from donor a secret from her child, so the last bit of my last post isn't relevant! (sorry  !)


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## Camberwell Nell

just popped back onto this thread with the beautiful news that I gave birth to my wonderful daughter Emily over 4 weeks early and she is now a reality, fast asleep in her moses basket, having just had a beautiful breast feed, she is a gorgeous angel, and there is no question in my heart that she is mine and I am hers, and when I pushed her out and her daddy caught her in  his hands and said we have a little girl. well.....its not a theoretical question for me any more. I know this is a hugely emotional post but I am chock full of hormones. day 5 today and on cloud nine. just thought I'd throw in some love xxx


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## Anna Brown

So pleased for you and your husband, Nell. Congratulations and thanks for sharing! For all those whose questions centre around the issue "will the child feel like mine" this will be great news!

Fortunately or unfortunately, my questions seem to focus on different areas and much thinking, waking up at night, and PM messages with a few of the people on this thread have made me conclude - for now - that I'm concerned about the known and unknown risks a donor would face because of my desire to have a child this way. And how this could be avoided and a way that I can be at peace with could be found.

If any of you out there know more about egg sharing programmes where I could (help to) finance a donor's own IVF treatment in exchange for her sharing her eggs (abroad probably, but we're open), I'd love to hear about it.

If you know of embryo adoption programmes (again, probably abroad) where the frozen embryos are truly "left overs" of people who have finished building their families - as opposed to a double donation - I would be grateful for the name of the hospital. I'm aware of the embryo adoption programme at Instituto Marques in Spain and have had replies from other hospitals where we could have a double donation (but as I said, I'm trying to find out if there are embryos that are not wanted anymore rather than having donor sperm in addition to a donated egg).

Work in progress, to be sure! As always, grateful for any information,

Anna


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## Be Lucky

Nell.many congratulations.thought it amazin when u said u had just breastfed her.that shows the true link btwn u both.anna.my clinic care in northampton.uk.has a mixture of altrisic women  who hav completed their families or eggshare.waiting list bout a year though.berniex


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## Anna Brown

Thank you all for posting messages here. As I get a feeling that my questions aren't questions relevant to the many readers of this strand, I'll stop visiting it myself. I am very grateful for all those of you who have shared your very private thoughts with me here or through private messsages. It has certainly prodded me into thinking further! Special thanks to Berniex for her suggestion of her hospital and giving some background information on the donors. 

I have to assume my journey will take me round a few more bends - it might lead me to a child or to take off in a different direction and accept things as they are. Not sure yet. Not sure when I will be. Certain that I'm not willing to remain in mid air for an indefinite period of time! To all you fellow travellers who read this, I wish you luck, patience and strength for your own journey!

Anna Brown


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## Camberwell Nell

good luck with your journey Anna, and i'm sure it is going to be an amazing one, as you are clearly a very thoughtful and compassionate woman. to life and what it brings you x 

love nell


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## Be Lucky

Yes good luck anna.i am goin 2 hav mor counsellin at care when waitin 4 donor 2 come up.nell how is the baby?and u?berniex


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## Camberwell Nell

Bernie 
little ~Emily is my dream come true. she's just fantastic. only just really believing that I get to keep her . she is a little doll and a very gentle and easy baby to care for. loving being a mum. and thanks for asking. x all the best to you on your journey as well.  

nell


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## sharonannzaki

RE IVF AND ISLAM

I am interested in the issue of donor egg and IVF.  I understand that IVF is permissible for Muslims if egg and sperm are from husband and wife and that donor egg is allowed for Shi ite Muslims.  I am wondering why Sunni Muslims are so against the use of donor egg; surely it is better to use a donor egg if a woman cannot use her own eggs and keep a marriage intact rather than risk the husband seeking a second wife at some stage to further his blood line?  Since it is important, even a duty, for a Muslim man to continue his blood line, why would the use of a donor egg be considered sinful under these circumstances?  I understand the issue of lineage - not knowing the donor's identity and therefore the risk of possible incest when the resulting child wishes to marry, but this can be overcome if the donor is known - it could be a close family member or friend.  The child can learn the identity of his/her genetic inheritance when he/she is an adult.  Re the issue of the requirement that a Muslim man be married to the donor of the egg, wouldn't this be acceptable since he is allowed more than one wife if his first wife cannot meet all his needs.  It can be a temporary arrangement with terms of agreement signed beforehand.  I read that many Sunni Muslim couples are doing IVF with donor eggs, even though it is banned by the authorities in Sunni dominated Muslim countries; they are going to Iran for the procedure where it is allowed.  Surely it is time for the Sunni Imams and leaders to re-examine the issues re assisted reproduction, after all it would appear that a lot of Sunni Muslims would like to try IVF using donor eggs but are being forced to do so in secret outside their own country.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Sharon.


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