# Keep trying or IVF at 43?



## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi

I'm new to FF but have already read some amazingly helpful stories and advice. I have a fertility smoothie everyday and take royal jelly and pregnacare. We are both taking Chinese herbal tea now as found out DH has low motility, quality and volume in Oct. We thought it was me as I'm 43 now but AMH is 45, follicle count 18 and we got pregnant naturally but m/c this time last year. I've had scans and hysteroscopy, blood tests, all showing no issues with me so fingers crossed that we'll have a 2015 bambino!   

we've been trying for 2 yrs since we got married and have had a consultation at Create Fertility just before Christmas so thinking of going ahead with that. They advice a 3 cycle modified package with ICSI. It's a lot and I wonder whether to do a single one first to see how I react. Or do we keep trying naturally? DH's counts have improved with 6 wks of tea and wellman and we'll test again as soon 12 wks since starting this. 
Any advice would be gratefully received xx


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## churchmouse41 (Jan 10, 2014)

Well, firstly, good luck!

Taking the plunge into IVF is a big decision, and a difficult one. I made my decision based on the fact that although there was nothing 'wrong' I was not getting any younger and therefore we did not have the luxury of time (I am 42 now). Given the same results at, say, 35 I don't think I would have gone straight into IVF.

I went for mild IVF (which is different to natural modified, but still really very low doses of drugs compared to conventional IVF). I was pleased with that decision as I responded well which meant it felt more like a numbers game that ultimately we could win i.e. with enough embryos we would find the golden egg (which fingers crossed we have!).

With natural modified IVF you will be looking a collecting a couple of eggs each cycle. Now, your golden egg might be in the first crop. But it might not. At least with a three cycle package you can 'bank' your embryos and then chose the best to transfer at the right time.

It is a difficult decision - particularly given the costs - and ultimately you have to do what feels right for you. I just know that I don't regret starting the process when I did and that if I have any regrets it is perhaps not starting a year earlier and for the time I feel that I wasted.

That probably doesn't help at all but just a glimpse at my own decision making process.

CMx


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## mierran (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi,
often they recommend a 3 cycle package so you have enough embryos to test to find that golden one. They will often freeze and test all together as a batch to keep costs down ( relatively speaking . Prices are still eyewatering )

At 42 unfortunately only 10% of eggs are chromosomally normal so you really need at least 10 embryos to test to give you a decent chance , and obviously the more the better. 

Good luck.


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## mfmcmoo (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Ladybird
Will keep this brief. I rushed into IVF without prepping my body. Had 2 failed ivfs. The new doc I was trying said, that over 40 you have as much chance of falling pregnant with ivf vs ics vs naturally. I went back to basics and took lots of supplements. Just before my 3rd ivf attempt ( I was waiting for my cycle to start for the final test that I needed and low and behold,) I fell pregnant. That was with my second. My third (DS), I cheated a bit. Still natural (lots of supplements - I will post the list in the next post), but I had some left over puregon from my failed IVF and I self medicated (it was a tiny tiny dose) and fell pregnant that month. Not sure if it was that which gave me the boost - but whatever it was - it worked. 
My cousin, who was 42 at the time, did the monitored mini IVF if you could call it that - (you could maybe do the ICSI if you are worried about your hubbies sperm). Monitored her follicle growth, giving her small doses of fertility meds and when the time was right, natural sex. She fell pregnant. So a couple of options. 
Sounds like you have much better bloods than I had - my AMH was pants!
Good luck


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## mfmcmoo (Jul 16, 2010)

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=294994.0


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks for the lovely replies. Really makes me feel warm to know you care enough to post with your experiences.

Hi church mouse, I totally know what you mean and I feel I should do something as I'm not getting any younger. Maybe the stimulated way with lower doses would be better so I look at that. It is big help, thanks as I regret not ttc earlier already! 
So it is a number game - thanks mierran

I'll definitely look at the supplements mfmcmoo so thanks for that! Amazing results for you and cousin, congrats! Definitely options to consider and much hope given!
Time to make a decision, as time's a bugger for running out! 
Thanx LB xx


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## mamochka (May 23, 2013)

Ladybird hi! 

I fell pregnant just a week after my 43rd bday with mix of own and donor sperm. Also on that cycle there was a inadvertent mistake about dosage (150 instead if 300 for day 5-10). You AMH sound like a PCOS tendency which gives you a lot of but not excellent quality of eggs. I was suggested to look at inositol as research shows it has great improvement effect for egg quality in PCOS ladies. My AFC was also 16-18 eggs but AMH if 21 last March. I put back 4 excellent blast but only 1 took of and this is out of 14 eggs so the stats are about right. Had a chemical and two mmc with hubby sperm only - so for older couples the golden egg need to meet golden sperm as well (my ex hubby SA was OK ish on paper though 33mln, 60% motility, 85% abnormal). Good luck with your decision and let me know if any qq! Mamo


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## churchmouse41 (Jan 10, 2014)

Yes - sadly the ratio of eggs to golden eggs for us oldies is a bit dispiriting! 

Ladybird - I wish we'd tried sooner too but decided early on that what was done was done (or not done in this case!) so tried to leave that regret behind. I didn't always do very well mind! My poor DH!

Mamochka - really interesting about your dosage. It sounds as though you inadvertently had mild IVF. I often wonder what would have happened if I'd gone down the 'conventional' route and equally wonder how some of the older ladies I read on here would fair on a lower dosage of drugs. I do think there is a lot of sense in the philosophy that it protects our slightly fragile eggs a bit better. But who knows. There just doesn't seem to be the research or genuinely comparative stats given that mild and natural is typically seen as last chance salon in the UK rather than the starting point. 

CMx


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi mamochka and congrats! Not long to go now!

Apparently no PCOS so all clear on that front - just high AMH for my age. As you say all doesn't matter unless you get the golden egg and sperm together as you did.
I'm not sure what all the abbreviations are yet so did you have a mild stimulated cycle?
LB x


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## mamochka (May 23, 2013)

Ladybird 

I was supposed to have a normal cycle at 300iu but by mistake (without looking at the box) was having 150iu injections the last 6 days. As Penny from Serum explained to me - it make sense to start on the higher dose to engage all available follicles and then slow down the stims not to over fry the eggs. But it never works the other way - staring from smaller dose and then increasing

AFC - antral follicle count

SA - sperm analysis

Mmc - missed miscarriage


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## PopPop8 (Sep 13, 2013)

Hello
I also got pregnant with own eggs at 43 (and 7 months!) and now have a DD - I took loads of supplements including inositol as, like Mamochka (hello Mamo - not long now!) I produced lots of eggs but obviously the quality wasn't good enough. I also had high immunes so worth checking whether the clinic you're planning to go to checks/treats your immunes.
Good luck - your bloods sound very good but ICSI sounds like the best bet in view of your DH's sperm. My DD was a result of ICSI and my DH's sperm was normal, but due to my age they opted for ICSI and finally the magic egg met the magic sperm! 
Any questions please let me know x


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks PopPop - that's amazing and I'm made up for you with your DD!
What do they actually test for for immense? I'll ask about that thanks
Need some magic then too!

Sounds like mamo got the magic dose - funny how things are meant to be!
Good luck  
LB xx


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## Blondie71 (Oct 26, 2011)

Hi Ladybird, I was like you too and had high AMH with no pcos (AMH was 55 at age 40) I had full drug protocol for my cycle at serum, menopur 300iu, puregon, decapeptyl and of course clexane & steroids, I acheived 17 eggs of which 10 were fertilised and frozen, I also put 4 back and just 1 embryo took, luckily it split (probably due to poor quality tho) so very much a lottery if a good egg is among the batch I'm afraid, the good news is you will have a lot of eggs to play that lottery with should you choose to


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi Blondie,

Thanks for your post - really boosts my spirits to hear about your amazing story! twins - what a blessing!
What made you decide on full protocol? Did you think about a milder dose?
Also you decided for 4 embryos to transfer, how did you decide on that? Obviously spot on for you!
LBxx


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## Blondie71 (Oct 26, 2011)

Ladybird you're right I am very blessed and I have to give any credit to the clinic tbh as they chose the protocol and nbr to put back, I think 4 (if you have 4 obviously) is the standard nbr to transfer with OE ivf at Serum clinic, and it used to be 3 but is now only 2 with DE's as serum have had such phenomonal success rates particularly with twins and triplets. I was lucky only one split as a lady I cycled with at serum now has quads due to 2 eggs that split, so she has identical twin boys and identical twin girls   (I think there are only 4 sets of these worldwide) you may have seen her documentary "quads our first year"? very interesting and emotional esp for any serum ladies x

Btw mild IVF was never mentioned as an alternative for me perhaps my hormone profile wasn't right for it


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi, just to say I am nearly 43    and stilll trying.  My signature has all my info, and the book in my signature is what I've used but no success so far.  (My son was conceived naturally and very quickly at almost 38 but I have tubal damage now and low AMH).  The only other thing I can think of, which you are probably doing anyway is sex before OV, (as well as on and after).

I spent a year trying naturally, at about 40 and wish I'd started IVF sooner now, but because of my tubes and low AMH.  I was told I was not an ideal candidate for IVF (lots of eggs needed or tried for) vs trying naturally, you only need one egg!

Good luck x


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## Whoppie (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi,

I am als 43 and still trying.. :-(
After 6 failed IVF cycles we now go to IUI.. i know the vice versa way but as we cannot afford again IVF now, we wll try with IUI.

DH's sperm is perfect and I have no issues except my age.
I am already taking some supplements like coq10, omega 3, vitamine D3, resveratrol, pregnacare, royal jelly but maybe need to add some like myo inositol ?


I took DHEA 3 months before last cycle and it was the worst cycle ever!! Due to DHEA or due the protocol ? We will neve know.

Injected today 75 menopur.. So we started right now with medicated IUI.. Let's hope


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

Good luck Whoppie!  x


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi Blondie,

Thanks for sharing your experience, it really gives me hope and inspiration. I had a really good look at Serum as I didn't know much about them. All I can say is they sound amazing so thanks for the tip off! Not just from their website but from FF site too. It sounds like they tailor the protocol to individuals which sounds ideal and worked perfectly for you. I'm going to submit a form to them today and see what they come back with. it would be easier to stay local and we are lucky being near London as we have Create 10mins away (where have had MOT) but also looking at others in London. Had blood test today for HIV, Hep etc needed to start so first steps.......

Thanks Its The Hope for your post, I've had a look at the book you've been researching and I'm going to get it. I've read about toxins in everything and it can drive you mad but I've tried to go natural and organic wherever possible after researching this. So I don't use perfume as they can affect hormone levels and use cosmetics (even toothpaste as some issues with these) which are natural. Local heath food shop and Waitrose are good for these products. The link below allows you to input products and gives you the low down on affects of the ingredients - many can have an impact on hormones and chromosomes

http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/

Whoopie - you've obviously been through a lot over the last year or so and I really feel for you 
On the Serum website, they say they advise on whatever way you are currently ttc so it may be worth submitting a form which is free just in case they can offer any tips. Also may be worth a look at ITHTH mentioned book for info as it sounds like it pulls lots of research together. 
I've read mixed reviews on DHEA as it still seems early days in terms of the research and issues (in terms of validity of the research) with most of the studies so far - so tricky one. It seems it should help if you have specific issues but could hinder if not (sorry that sounds a bit vague but you and you're consultant probably know a lot more about this).
I also take Chinese Herbal tea (as does DH now since we've discovered issues on his side in Oct). His results after 6wks improved and will test again at 12wks so fingers crossed 
Also I have a daily fertility smoothie, try to eat health and use my exercise bike 3 times a week. The one I struggle most with is stress from work which I don't think I have a good strategy for. Any advice on any area gratefully received as I have so much learn!

Good luck and let's hope its a happy new year for us all 
LB xx

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## Greengirl72 (Nov 7, 2014)

Hi,  I am nearly 43 and have tried naturally for over 2 years and 2 rounds of IUI without success. 

So many people have said to us that we should try IVF at least once, but the reality is that many cycles don't work on the first attempt, (so think if you really want to do it - how many times you want to do it/ can afford to do it).  Most say that you should try once, because then you can say your tried.  But I don't buy into that.  There is a lot of pressure in society, from friends, from families to be a child bearer, but it is just about you (and your partner if you have one), if this is a road you wish to travel.  

Success rates improve greatly if you consider donor eggs.  I think I read somewhere that there is no record of over 45 IVF being successful with OE So perhaps a donor is something to consider too.  It greatly improves the odds of being successful.  I went to an adoption evening too, to understand what actually was driving both my partner and I to consider IVF, (I've always wanted to adopt and he wasn't sure) and it was helpful to know that this is a route we can take if the IVF doesn't work.

Talk it over and if you feel a baby is what you want most, then you need to seriously consider all IVF options and jump on the health wagon ASAP.  No time like now.  

My story: Neither my ptr or I have any health issues or any reason why we 'shouldn't' conceive.  I have done acupuncture, Chinese herbs, (where possibly I got pregnant and miscarried shortly after (didn't have time to test) or the tea just made my period come very early and very quickly), and now I am in the middle of IVF, (embryo transfer tomorrow).  From everything I have read (and that is quite a bit over the years), our age is our biggest barrier and unfortunately that is something that we cannot change and we have to accept.  A lot of older women who conceive have often have had children before - apparently that makes you more fertile!  So us older girls that haven't had children before have an upward challenge.  

I have been very focused on being healthy - but not to the extent that I stop living my life either.  I seriously reduced my alcohol intake (to just one or two glasses a week if at all) for 6 months and didn't drink at all during the IVF cycle.  I cut out most caffeine (that include chocolate, coke etc.)  I allowed one green tea, but others don't recommend that.  I also saw that some experts don't recommend decaffeinated tea, (I ignored this mostly as I love tea and did some research and use Clipper organic decaf tea - which doesn't use artificial chemicals to remove the caffeine), but I limited even this. 

I also saw a herbalist prior to IVF and I did a programme of herbal treatments, regular massages and light exercise to deal with work stress.  Many people said that they made some lifestyle changes and pregnancy followed.  None of it worked for me, but I feel as healthy as I can be and if the IVF doesn't work, then I am in a healthier state of mind to deal with the disappointment and know that I did my best to try to make the IVF work.

Good luck with your search for the right option.


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## agate (Nov 14, 2008)

The oldest publicised OE IVF was age 46.  Serum had a quiet one at age 49 but its really rare to be successful with OE ivf after 45.  One study on PGD lumped all the cycles age 43-45 together.  Their analysis only found one PGD normal emby for every  44 eggs collected by ivf (it was much better for age 42 1 for 10ish)... So the odds of good eggs probably do take a dive somewhere around 43-45.


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks for your thoughts Greengirl, I get where coming from and have very similar feelings about it.
I think the healthy life style has improved me, my skin and how I feel and I cut down to 1-2 glasses of wine at weekend which I think does no harm as you have.
My DH and I have talked about it a lot and we will try IVF as if we don't we'll never know if could have helped. if it doesn't work we've still got each other and we feel really lucky for that.
Hope it's a journey we get to share but if not we'll still enjoy life to the full!
GOOD LUCK, hope it works for you!
LB xx


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## urbangirl (Jul 28, 2010)

Agate, does your study mention the stage the embryos were at, or were ones of different days 'age' lumped all together?  Since blasts give a vastly improved outcome for younger IVF patients I think it's safe to assume the same should apply to older patients, as some bigger clinics have tested and found that the vast majority of embryos that don't make it to blast are chromosomally abnormal, so it does filter a lot of those ones out. 

I would imagine also that in that study were women who had no normal embryos at all and others that had a few in one batch, that's why statistics should be considered from different angles- some older women will have a few normal embryos and their chance of success with those will normally be the same as a younger women, if they go to blast around 60% or whatever it is, others who have none will obviously have a zero percent chance. Success when you're older is much more of an individual thing than it is with younger tx'ers who will in general have quite a few normal eggs to try with.


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## Leafy71 (Oct 25, 2014)

I just did my 2nd cycle (I'm 43 !) implanted 17/01/15 so I'm in 2WW - 
My whole experience 2nd time was better - and more productive in many ways.
Cycle 1 - 3 eggs 2 embryo's - embryos were 4/5 cell at day 3 - BFN
2nd Cycle - 9 eggs - 7 viable - 3 did not covert 4 did but 2 deformed - 2 good they were 12/9 cell at implant.
So, try it you have nothing too loose and SOOOOO much to gain !


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## chooshoos (Dec 18, 2014)

Leafy71 said:


> I just did my 2nd cycle (I'm 43 !) implanted 17/01/15 so I'm in 2WW -
> My whole experience 2nd time was better - and more productive in many ways.
> Cycle 1 - 3 eggs 2 embryo's - embryos were 4/5 cell at day 3 - BFN
> 2nd Cycle - 9 eggs - 7 viable - 3 did not covert 4 did but 2 deformed - 2 good they were 12/9 cell at implant.
> So, try it you have nothing too loose and SOOOOO much to gain !


Leafy71,
Lots of positive karma coming your way. 
Good Luck; we are rooting for you !

Choo
X


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## Leafy71 (Oct 25, 2014)

thanks Choo xxx


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi Leafy! Good luck! Join us on the low AMH thread if you like! 

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=331263.msg5992929#msg5992929


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi Leafy,

Got everything crossed for you! Best of luck!  

Can I ask what protocol you used and where you had your treatment?

We are getting blood tests and paperwork done to start.

LB x


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Hope all is well with you Mamo.

Is there anything special you're advised to do for EC or after ET? I really hope we can start this month but I know I have a very busy (prob stressful) time coming up. Part of me thinks I can't wait any longer. The other part of  me thinks that next month should be quieter so it would be better to wait.

Is the advice to be take a break after ET or be not too busy or is best to carry on as usual? Does anyone have any advice please?
LB x


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi
After ET I was told to not to aerobic exercise and not lift in the 2ww and not do any vacuming!  Also to have a 20 min walk every day.  And no hot water bottles on my tummy xx


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## mamochka (May 23, 2013)

Hi ladybird! 

Yes still here pushing the 40th week and impatient to finally meet my LO!

As for advice I would always do acupuncture pre and post ET. Walking but no heavy duty. Also on the last successful cycle had half a glass of wind between EC and ET. Raspberry leaf tea, Brazilian nuts and core of pineapple (5cubes a day). I wish you all the luck! Is it Create you stuck with? Mamoxx


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## mamochka (May 23, 2013)

Wine not wind (really small half a glass;-))


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

hahaha  thank you for that typo!


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## its the hope that hurts (Mar 19, 2014)

PS huge congrats to you xx


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## ladybird23 (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks Mamo - you made me laugh with the typo too! I'll try all of those.

Yes I stayed with Create and got some good advice from Katy at Serum when I emailed them so we'll go there if this doesn't work out

Am so pleased for you! And not long to go before you meet your precious LO! Lots of love to you both
LB x


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