# ARGC or Lister??



## sparkle13 (Sep 19, 2013)

Hi,

I have had two failed IVF cycles @ the Roehampton clinic in Kingston.  I have however, decided to try again but not sure which clinic to choose; ARGC  - as their stats are so good, but I am concerned re. their costs or The Lister.  Any guidance would be appreciated, really not sure which way to turn.  

Thanks
Sparkle 13


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## smallbutmighty (Aug 5, 2013)

I've just been asking myself exactly the same question. I've gone with the Lister because I think ARGC's stats are a bit misleading. I.e. from what I gather they only take women with a very good chance of conceiving (e.g. high AMH, low FSH), ergo it is no great surprise their success rates are so strong. It is a bit like boasting all your pupils got straight A*s when you have a savage entrance exams test to ensure you only take the brightest. I think HFEA could be doing more to regulate how success rates are published.

I have infinitely more respect for the Lister as they take on couples with more complex issues (e.g. low AMH) and still get some pretty great results. They also have that amazing pregnancy calculator online which allows you to get a slightly more nuanced picture and a wealth of literature for the lay person on all these medical terms to make it easier to understand, rather than treating you like a mushroom (keeping you in the dark and feeding you sh*t). 

All of this said, my first consultation is on Thursday, so I'll have a better idea then, but certainly the knowledge of even the reception staff, and the thoroughness of the documentation we've had through has impressed me thus far.


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## Sweetpea123 (Feb 26, 2013)

Hi there,

I had consultations at both and went with argc. I have low amh and women who had amh lower than mine - less than 1 are treated by argc and they do like your fsh to be below 10 or near enough to 10 as possible.

I like argcs tailored approach. They go by your hormones for stims. I liked the lister too however for me they wanted to do exactly the same thing as my nhs go with no changes. This didnt suit me. Are you having consultations with both? I recommend that so you get a feel of the place. Argc is busy but there is a reason for that! It is pricy too but that is because they check your bloods every day whilst stimming. So it is full on when you get going! I think their approach is what got me to blast and also I have frosties to go back for! I wouldn't go any where else for ivf now. 

good luck with it all xx


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## smallbutmighty (Aug 5, 2013)

Hmm, well that is food for thought. My FSH is 9.8 and my concern in starting with them is that whilst it might be fine for cycle 1, assuming it doesn't work out first time I don't want to be booted out further down the line because my FSH has gone up a bit.


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## Sweetpea123 (Feb 26, 2013)

but then it could be lower than 9.8 another month. there are ways of lowering your fsh, diet, supplements, acupuncture, being stress free! many women have lowered their own. mine is normally in the 8's then it went down to 4.6 with changes I made.

definitely something to think about anyway! you have to go to where suits your own needs. I had 4 consultations with different clinics before I decided and went to a couple of other open evenings. It is a lot of money so you need to be happy with decision!

xx


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## Irish Dee (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi Sparkle,

I could not recommend ARGC highly enough.  Following 5 negatives, I had my wonderful daughter with my first cycle at ARGC.

Smallbutmighty, with the greatest of respect, I do not believe for one moment that ARGC cherrypick their patients.  

I was aware that my FSH needed to be under 10 and was under the impression that ARGC have realised, over many, many years of treatment, that ladies with high FSH seem to have limited success. I believe that it would be much more immoral to take money of ladies that they do not feel they would be able to help. You also can do bloods every month to find your best levels.  

My AMH was never measured. I had the best fertilisation rates and my first ever blast transfer. Expensive?  Unbelievably so, we spend just shy of £30,000. Worth every single penny. I could not add enough noughts onto that figure to put a price on my little girl.  The attention to detail was incredible. Daily bloods initially and twice daily bloods just before egg collection with medication changes every single day makes all the difference.

In my dealings there, which started in January 2011 (initial consultation) until March 2012 (last IVIG), I met and chatted to dozens and dozens of women. Believe you me, what you do an ARGC cycle, there is a lot of waiting around and you have lots of chats with so many ladies.  

Yes, some were straightforward, but the majority of women I met had years of fertility treatment under their belts. Many had complex issues, repeated failure to implant, multiple miscarriages. When I cycled, all but 2 of the ladies that met for coffee every day had successful pregnancies and healthy babies. 2 of my cycle buddies had unsuccessful cycles at Lister before finding success at ARGC.

Sorry for going on, I think my love and gratitude to ARGC makes me passionate about them.

Best of luck with your journey.

Dee


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## smallbutmighty (Aug 5, 2013)

"I was aware that my FSH needed to be under 10 and was under the impression that ARGC have realised, over many, many years of treatment, that ladies with high FSH seem to have limited success."

Such a restriction will likely skew their success rates. I don't doubt at all that their very thorough approach is also hugely to their credit and certainly worth bearing in mind, but one has to balance the two factors when reviewing the data. And I am happy for you that it worked out.

But that aside, I cannot believe it cost £30k!?! I agree with you that there is no better way to spend money I can think of, but their website would suggest c.£2.5k for the IVF cycle, assuming plus some drugs that usually brings it to c.£5.5k, so where's the extra £25k?

I totally agree with you that all clinics should be straight about publishing their success rates across the varying criteria, e.g. age, FSH, etc. so that women are informed before they decide to proceed, but beyond that I don't think it is immoral to offer treatment to a woman with higher FSH so long as it is made very clear to her what the odds of success are. There is of course a fine line and these clinics must be mindful of preying on desperation, so maybe there's an argument for some mandatory independent counselling before proceeding. But I would be livid to be denied the choice. 

I think that's maybe partly what sticks in my gut - they're a "world class" clinic apparently, offering very intense levels of treatment, but they won't help those who arguably need it most. Granted, if we fail with the Lister a few times and my FSH is still low enough that they'll have me, we may grit our teeth and consider ARGC, but for me personally, they won't be my first port of call.

Sparkle13 - I guess in summary, ARGC have performed miracles for some people but are very expensive indeed; Lister are cheaper and you should use their calculators to get a more accurate sense of how well you'll do given your own specific circumstances, but Lister won't give you daily checks, etc. But I think you probably knew that already!


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## Chirp (Dec 11, 2012)

Hello there

I'm also trying to work out which clinic to go to next having had 3 fresh failed cycles at Hammersmith, one successful FET at Hammersmith which ended in miscarriage and one failed fresh cycle at a Hammersmith associated clinic. I stuck so long with Hammersmith because the one FET success gave me hope. But since then our fertilisation rates have plummeted and we no longer seem to be able to reach blastocyst - despite my husband's sperm being much improved - and I need to look at a new approach.

I have high AMH for my age (will be 40 in January) so I'm hoping my FSH will be low enough for ARGC. I very much like the sound of their very tailored, individual approach. Like you Sparkle13 I have concerns about ARGC costs and have been trawling through other ladies experiences to try and work out what the costs might be at ARGC. From what I can work out a cycle might cost around £10-15K - up to a BFP or a BFN. I have had some immune testing done already so am hoping there will be some things I won't have to repeat. 

Irish Dee - thanks very much for your input - I'm a little startled by the 30K cost you mention. Would you mind breaking that down a bit? Did you have particularly high immune problems and was that where much of the cost went? I'm very very attracted by ARGC's no frills, intense approach and their great results statistics - but what I want to make sure is that I'm not biting off more than I can chew cost wise - so my other question would be, in your experience, how open were the clinic about how much things would cost - did it all pile up alarmingly and unexpectedly or were the costs very clearly explained at each stage?

Thanks so much for any help - it's so invaluable to hear from people who have actually been through it - if there are any other ARGC ladies who could chip in please do!

Chirp
x


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi Ladies would you mind if I joined this thread as this has been something I have been researching constantly over the past few days. I have had two failed ICSI cycles at Chelsfield Park under the NHS and while I cannot fault them, now that I am paying I have realised that their success rates are very low. If I'm going to spend thousands then I want the best. 

From what I have read ARGC are undoubtedly the best but I was expecting around the £8000 mark.  Irish Dee Is that £30,000 for one cycle that has added up or is this what you have spent in total? Hope you don't mind me asking but if its £30,000 for one cycle then that puts them out of my price list. Also I'm assuming as such close monitoring you spend everyday sitting there waiting for your next test? Not that this is a problem I am just trying to work out how its all done. 

Also and again this is why I am moving as I think I've only had three blood tests done ever at Chelsfield and never any during stimms which I am realising is quite lax but I think my FSH is 10.8 and my AMH around 5. Is this within range at ARGC? I have no idea if this is good or bad even.

The Lister from what I can work out is also very very good and a lot cheaper. Do they monitor you closely through stimms ie blood tests? Obviously not as closely as ARGC, you get what you pay for, but I feel I must need closer monitoring.

Thanks for any advice xx


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Sweatpea123 could you elaborate on how you got your FSH to come down. I gather by looking through mine it is slightly to high. Any advice would be so grateful xx


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## duckybun (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi ladies,

I'm currently a patient at the argc and having my immunes treated before cycling. I also had the same dilemma of whether to go to the lister or argc and had consultations at both on the same day. 

The lister were very impressive, friendly, informative, we asked loads of questions and for clear answers and the feeling that we could ask anything we wanted and be taken seriuosly. We then went to the argc and were disappointed by the tone of the consultation, it felt a bit impersonal and lacking empathy. However we decided to go with the argc purely based on the level of tailoring they do during stimms.

In terms of the lister being 'much cheaper' I actually don't think that is accurate. The actual costs for testing and procedures is cheaper at the argc, what pushes the price up is their constant testing of your bloods during stimms and more aggressive treatment of immunes. For a cycle without any immunes issues the total cost for an argc cycle would come in between 9 - 12 k depending on how long they needed to stimm you for and which drugs you were stimmed with, we specifically asked this during our consultation. 

Where people get figures of 30k is when there are serious immunes issues that require repeated IVIG. I personally am into my second round of humira before even cycling which has so far cost us 800 for immunes testing, 840 for 1st humira, 310 for immunes retest and 840 for second humira. Dh also had a repeat SA and anueploidy test for 800 (ish) can't remember. I wanted to know I wasn't wasting my time and money having bog standard treatment somewhere where immunes hadnt been tested and treated hence we went argc, lister said they would Investigate if I wanted but didn't feel it was nessecary... My immunes turned out to be way off whack wih cytokines of 51. So although its taking ages to get to treatment and costing a fortune, I'm glad we went with the argc.

However their communication skills are pathetic, which I have found frustrating but I keep getting assured by he other argc ladies that once you start cycling they are brilliant.

Don't know if that sheds any light on your decision! I think the lister are a fantastic clinic and if it wasn't for my immunes issues I wouldn't have any issue with cycling there.

X
Ducky


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## Chirp (Dec 11, 2012)

Hi Duckybun

That is such useful info - thank you so much! 

So good to hear from a current cycler that an ARGC cycle can come in at 9-12k - which whilst being a bit higher than the other top clinics is, as you say, really not all that far off. And at my stage in my treatment I don't want to make false economies (without totally bankrupting myself!).

Another question for you or other ARGC current cyclers - how long do they take from first consultation to first cycle? The reason I ask is because my husband is in the military and is about to go overseas for 7 months (agh!). I'm trying to work out whether to get going and go and meet them and get in the system asap - and have any tests they want me to do before cycling - or whether I should wait a few months till my husband's return is more imminent. As you say, and I've read from other ARGC people, their communication is terrible  - so I don't want to get off to a false start and get kind of lost in the system if you know what I mean - if I go and meet them straight away then can't cycle immediately - what do you think?

Thank you so much again for the information - so much appreciated.

Chirp
x


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Ducky thanks that is so helpful. Can I ask how do you know if you need immunes doing or not?


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## duckybun (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi ladies,

Chirp, if I were you I'd just get cracking. I had my first consultation back in June and still haven't got going! If they find any immunes issues that need dealing with you could be getting on with that whole your hubby is away and then be good to trot when he gets back. I have no idea when I'll be ready to cycle, even now! It will be minimum 2 more months for this course of humira and for my next af to show up but I may need to do intralipids as well, just he way the argc work, they want to get you in the best place immunes wise as possible before cycling.

Hoping, tbh there's no way to 'know' you need immunes treatment untill you've either had loads of implantation failure, or miscarriages. However, I had stage four endo which generally indicates there's something immune going on and I also have joint issues. None of the clinics locally to us do immunes and I really didn't want to waste my early thirties and our savings on treatments that I didn't have any faith in so jumped in at the deep end and got my immunes done early on. Really glad I did, even if they had come back normal it would've only set us back 800 and a couple of weeks so we weighed it up and thought it was worth it either way.

X
Ducky


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## Chirp (Dec 11, 2012)

Ducky, thank you so much again - I will definitely crack on and send my form off! 

Loads of good luck to you for when you do actually get to cycle - I hope ARGC does prove to be the answer.

Good luck to everyone else here too - wherever you decide to go.

Chirp
x


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## susie76 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi ladies, just chipping in with some thoughts.  I actually think both are great clinics and have had friends with successes at both, although it would be hard for me not to be a bit argc biased given that i got my bfp there (see signature, the 3 bfns before were with the Lister).  The Lister has a much more pleasant environment and is more calm and organised, but after 3 goes there even our consultant was quite happy for us to try another approach.

Before going to argc i also thought they would screen me out on the low amh thing (and i thought that was the only reason they got the good stats) but actually they were not at all concerned.  They do like fsh to be below 10 at the start of the month, but they explained that this is because fsh can fluctuate (unlike amh which tends to only go down) and so it makes sense to pick a 'good' month for you.  So whereas at other clinics you can choose your timing more precisely, at argc you are a kept a bit in limbo and won't know until that month whether you can start.  I was very sceptical about the stats before my first consultation but came out much more reassured that they are not just 'cherry picking'.

Re timings, i had first consulation in November 2012, we did all the immune testing and also dna karotyping (recommended by them as i had shown up with some immune issues but the Lister doesn't do the same Chicago tests).  I had to have humira first (another thing that could delay argc cycling) in Jan/Feb, but luckily my cytokines came down after only one round and my fsh was good to go the next day at the start of March (so you go from waiting around to suddenly all guns blazing without much warning - you have to be a bit flexible - other cycles i have always been able to 'nominate' when the best timing for me would be).

The tailored approach and daily monitoring of the argc is completely different to anywhere else, and they are way more focused on the immunes, they are also likely to suggest a hysteroscopy first, and throw in quite a lot of extra drugs.  It's hard to pinpoint exactly what made the difference, or whether it was the whole combo, or just a bit of luck.

Cost-wise, each Lister cycle was probably in the range of 6k.  My argc bill (for one cycle) is over 26k.  I agree its a bit disingenuous that they advertise 2.5k or 3.5k on the website as that is only the basic surgical cost of the ivf/icsi and doesn't include any blood tests, drugs etc (another thing that was putting me off them on initial research).  If i break the 26k down, 9.4k was for treatment (including 1.1k for hysto and all initial checks ex immunes, plus all blood tests/scans including in pregnancy), 2.9k for drugs, 13.4k for immunes (humira at 800 quid plus 6 lots of ivig at 1500 plus all the repeat testing), and 800 quid on acupuncture/nutritionist/supplements etc (my choice).  Running total up until to the positive test was about 14k but then once you get a bfp there are more blood tests, immunes, scans, drugs, monitoring etc that other clinics don't do.
Hope that makes sense - i have the full spreadsheet if anyone needs!!

Good luck with your decisions and treatments xxx


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Thanks Susie76 that is really helpful.

Do they do immunes as standard at ARGC before you even start? 
How well do they monitor you at Lister ie scans blood tests etc while your stimming?

I like the idea of ARGC but 26k is just not an option for me.


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## Irish Dee (Jan 30, 2008)

Hi ladies,

I've copied an entry from my treatment diary below, so some of the detail is out of context, but this breaks down my costs.
*******************************
Dear Diary,

*38 weeks and 2 days*

One thing that I need to note here is the actual cost of the treatment at ARGC. I've been meaning to put the total figures on here for ages.

When we started out, we were led to believe that a cycle would cost anywhere between £10,000 and £15,000 to get to OTD. This held true for us and by OTD we had spent £13,500. I had a lot of bloods and I stimmed for 15 days on maximun dose.

Post BFP, my immunes went a bit bananas and I ended up having 7 IVIGs, each with a healthy price tag of £1,750. Living in Ipswich, my traveling costs were high. The totals for each are are listed below:

Bloods - £3,460
Scans - £550
Immunes - £15,265
ICSI and Blast - £4,025
Travel - £1,800
Medication - £3,770
Misc - £878
*GRAND TOTAL - £29,750*

Written down, it looks like such a lot of money, but it was spread over 7 months and we paid it as we went along.

I'm convinced that my dodgy immunes were the main reason that I never got pregnant before now and to be honest, I felt really safe and protected when I had the IVIGs. Also, for all the ladies that I met throughout my time at ARGC, I never met anyone who had as many IVIGs as me. I think that a red flag might have gone up for me if everyone was having IVIGs every month, but all my fellow cyclers ended up having 2 or perhaps 3. The IVIGs were as a result of my own body producing rotten killer cells.

Plenty of people would spend this kind of money on an executive car or an extension or house improvement and to think that we have managed to create a whole little human makes the cost so unimportant. I know that money plays a huge factor when considering where to go for treatment, but for me, at the age of 39 as I was when I approached ARGC, I felt that I would prefer to throw everything we could at one decent cycle with the best clinic in the country rather than trying again and again with standard protocol IVF that was just not working for us.

I do not begrudge one penny of the money that we spent, and I know that we are one of the lucky ones that had the means to go to ARGC. In a fair world, everyone who struggles with infertility would have access to the amazing care and attention that we were so lucky to get. I honestly believe that I would never have got pregnant with any other clinic.

8 more sleeps until my C-Section. Come safely to us please baby girl, our whole future happiness is in your little hands.

Dee

Read more: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=260497.90#ixzz2fv6l1BYe


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## susie76 (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm not sure about immunes as standard tbh, for me it made sense as i had already had some tests and treatment at the Lister (on my pushing rather than them thinking it was an issue).  I think if you've had lots of implantation failures elsewhere they probably would, but for a first-timer perhaps not necessarily.

At Lister you probably have first scan and blood test on day 5 of stimms (scans are included in their costs i think but blood test is extra, but they only test one marker so was maybe 40-50 quid whereas argc can be up to 120 if they are testing 4 markers that day), then every 2 days until EC.  At argc you are in every day from the start of stimms, then sometimes twice a day in the second week.


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## Chirp (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks so much Susie76 and Irish Dee

26K and 30k are frightening amounts! I have already had some immune tests which came back with no issues with my killer cells  - though in my recent failed cycle I did have fever symptoms on day 10 after egg collection - so I think what I will do is go along and speak to them and see what their tests come back with - and will hope that any immune issues I might have don't need IVIG - which seems to how the costs can spiral up.

Thank you so much for breaking down all the cost details - it's so hard to know as an outsider whether a clinic is taking the mick with costs. And with ARGC - until you start digging - all you hear is the huge costs and don't see the variance between individuals and the breakdown of how it has accrued. It's so useful to have your insights.

Thanks so much again. Congratulations on your pregnancy Susie and Dee congratulations for your little girl - you both give me hope.

Now I'd better get filling my piggy bank...

Chirp
x


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Dee and Susie thanks so much you are both making me feel so much better. 

Dee really good luck for your C-section!! I really hope all goes amazingly for you. 

Susie sorry to bombard you with questions but I've had two implantation failures so far. Is that enough to warrant the tests do you think? If I understand what NK cells are (and I think I kind of do) I'm not sure I'd have high levels as I pick up every illness/bug/cough under the sun. Someone could sneeze 40 miles away and I would catch there cold!! 
Are the NK cells the immunes?
Do you know if Lister do endo scratches?

Thanks again ladies its really so helpful xx


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## susie76 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi hoping, i'm not sure at what point they would make you do the tests to be honest, you would have to ask.  I guess i got to the point where i would rather pay the money and cover all bases.
yes by NK test/immune test i mean the same thing (agate has wayyy more informative info though in her thread) - to start with at argc they will do the full "nk assay" including cytokines for a start (cost 780) and then many tests along the way costing 310, for me normally this led to ivig, but for some people they will treat with intrallipids which are much less expensive.  Not sure how it correlates (if at all) with how much you get ill - it's all a bit of a contraversial/untested area which is why many doctors don't agree with it.
Don't know about the endo scratches at the Lister but i'm sure they must if they thought it was a good idea.  At argc the idea of the hysto is partly to clean out/make scratches, and partly to get exact measurements so they can work out where to place the embryoes on transfer, it sounded like most ladies had to have one.


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## duckybun (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi dee, 

Thanks for the breakdown on costs, tbh dh and I decided at the start that we were ring fencing 30k so we were prepared for worst case scenario if needed, since we're 2 rounds of humira in I'm starting to think I may well end up one of the unfortunates who will need everything including the kitchen sink thrown at me. Do you mind I I ask you what your cytokine levels were? I started at 46 and flared to 51 after our first humira round, who h to me seems very high and I'm quite doubtful it'll come down below 30 to cycle with. But I don't have anything to compare it with so guessing really! What were you're levels like through treatment?

Hoping, I was just commenti g to dh the other day that despite my supposedly super high immune response I still manage to get smited with every blinking bug going! So not sure that there's any real evidence either way to say your likely to have immunes issues depending on how easy you catch stuff  

X
Ducky


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## hopingpraying (Sep 16, 2013)

Thanks Susie and ducky for all the info. That would just be my luck that I catch everything under the sun and have immune issues. 

The other issue I have is ARGC may not treat me anyway as my FSH is high.

Definitely got more research to do but thanks so much to all of you, it really helps when you share your experiences xx


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## dbk (May 18, 2012)

Hi

After having been patient of both clinics the following is my opinion:

We were recommended arcg by a friend who had a successful treatment there following failures at other London clinics. Initially I had a natural iui with argc I found them a chaotic and all the monitoring was too much as I was working. So we had another consultation with lister. We were very impressed as our consultant was a great salesman. Also it seemed that the facilities were better and that I may receive a better attention there. 

Fast forward few failed cycles and lots of 1000s spent we moved back to argc with a knowledge that it may be chaotic and busy and that it may take time and that I may have to be patient, but with a total belief in that Mr T would be able to fix me! ...and he did! Not straight away but after the first failed I got my bfp first time ever. 

ARGC were chaotic to start with but once the treatment started they were great and I felt like I was their only patient. I did not wait around too long for the scans or the blood despite the sea of people in there. They called me every day when necessary and they did what they said they would. They were amazing! 

In comparison I was so upset after each of my treatment at lister that I almost gave up trying - I just could not go on any more. The nurses (only some) were rude, they kept me waiting for ages knowing a had a job to go to and they (consultants) just took the money and never asked or changed anything...after one or two failures surely you have got to ask yourself what is wrong here. Is it moral just to take the money from vulnerable patient and continue knowing that it is not working? After my final failure I was told that my eggs were too old and not good - perhaps use DE...and perhaps I would had I stayed with them but thank god I left and realised that there is nothing wrong with my eggs. 

Anyway I know that some people had good experiences in lister perhaps I was just unlucky. I guess it boils down to what is wrong with you. For me argc is the best in the UK no question about it. Also when  I compared the cost of a cycle at lister v argc it come down to the same even with my immune issues because at lister they give you general for ec and you stay in the hospital bed etc and all that is more expensive then being at argc where they use heavy sedation which is much better as you recover sooner...

good luck


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## Steph2012 (Mar 16, 2012)

Ladies, thought I would throw my hat into the ring. 
I've had treatment at both the Lister and ARGC and I would opt for ARGC every time. But it's like comparing apples and pears. Yes, the Lister is a much calmer and organised approach but I never felt like I had personalised treatment - I was scanned every few days and was on the same dose of stims throughout. And after 2 cycles, I hadn't got to embryo transfer (see my sign off below).
We moved to ARGC and were initially shocked by the chaotic feel of the place. But I felt properly taken care of - daily monitoring and a call afternoon to tell me what dose of drugs to take that evening. The nurses and the staff are lovely. And it worked!
In terms of cost, I don't think there was a great deal of difference between the two but I only had minor immune issues ( had intralipids twice). I think my cycle at ARGC came in at just over £11k, including all bloods, scans, medication etc.
In terms of 'selecting' patients by ARGC, I'm not sure that's strictly true. They work on FSH, not AMH (mine is really low at around 1.0 last time it was tested). When I first went to ARGC in APril and had a monitoring cycle, my FSH came in at 20.2. I took DHEA, wheatgrass, spirulina, co Q10, had acupuncture etc and the following month it was 12.3 and they cycled me. And we got a BFP.


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