# Bleeding before OTD



## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

I wonder if anyone has experienced a similar situtation to myself.  All my other IVFs I have started bleeeding as early as day 5, two day 7 and one day 8.  I have never made it to test date and I cant help using day 5-8 and as a benchmark for bleeding.  I have had 2 positives using DH's sperm which miscarried early but still had early bleeding with BFP.  We have now moved onto donor sperm (on 2nd donor attempt).  I am only 4 days past 3 day transfer (1x 8 cell grade 1 and 1 x 7 cell grade 1 1/2) and have had hypnotherapy regarding not feeling negative and thinking about bleeding etc but i can't help it!  Dreading from tomorrow onwards!  

I can't imaging NOT bleeding - has anyone out there been early bleeders and had the same thoughts but then gone on to not bleed and get BFP?  I can't imagine it happening.  Also, I keep thinking if only one embie takes will I still bleed out the other one?  

I am on 3 x 400mg of Cyclogest a day and it still didnt stop bleeding on last cycle!  Anyone who has experienced this, can you let me know what progesterone support you were on? 

Any thoughts will be much appreciated xxxx

Linlou


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,

I am so sorry to hear this has happened to you.  I cannot understand why your clinic has not addressed this issue before.  You may be someone who simply does not adequately absorb enough cyclogest and therefore you do not have enough progesterone for successful implantation and pg.

I would increase immediately your cyclogest to at least 4-5 x 400 per day and ask your clinic to test your progesterone levels now to see what they are.  I would also ask your clinic if they would consider letting you use injectible progesterone as well as it will deliver higher levels of progesterone intravenously.  This may be better for people who's systems do not absorb pessaries.

You cannot have too much progesterone but you can easily not have enough for success. 

Have you been tested for any other contributory issues?  e.g. thyroid, uterine issues, clotting issues (inc. MTHFR), infection, autoimmune?  Some of these can be directly related to trouble with implantation and/or absorbtion of progesterone.

I personally would immediately increase cyclogest and contact your clinic about this.

I personally did not have success until I added gestone along with other medications to address my implantation failure and miscarriage issues.

Best
Daisy
x


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Daisy

Thank you so much for your email - I was told to only take 2 x 400 cyclogest and I have increased it myself to 3 but will increase it even further immediately.  

My clinic have never mentioned lack of progesterone in my system - if this cycle doesnt work I will definitely be changing clinics!  

I asked my clinic for gestone in the past and they said that gestone is the "old version" if cyclogest  - cyclogest was brought out to replace gestone and it does the same job blah blah ,....but the more I have been reading up on it, the more I realise that this is not the case.  

I have not had any immune tests but have been put on clexane, asprin and prednisolone...

Thank you so much for your reply.........

Linda x


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Sorry Linda.  Hope I haven't alarmed you too much, but I do know that you cannot do any harm by increasing progesterone.  I would contact your clinic and discuss as well though.

I really hope this is the successful one for you now though after all you have been through.

Daisy
x


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you!  I will phone my clinic and and I see from you stats that your dreams did eventually come true and you couldn't have asked for better than twins! wonderful......x


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## Ceri. (Sep 6, 2004)

*"Please note, Fertility Friends does not endorse any type of self medication/DIY drugs administering . We ask you to seek advice from your GP/clinic"*


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Thank you Ceri, this is indeed an important point.

Daisy
xx


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## Springflower (May 23, 2010)

Linlou - I really feel for you, I'm in the same position with the early bleeding.  On my 2nd attempt I was on 3 progestrone pessaries a day.  For my next attempt I'm trying the gestone injections, I have no idea if they will work but figured trying something new was worth it!

Good luck - I really hope this time works for you!!


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Springflower - it is awful isnt it - you feel cheated that you don't even get to test date.  I am currently bleeding (started on day 7/8 (mon/tue) but currently testing faint positive.  But I have been in this position before on my 3rd ICSI and it turned negative the day after test date so not holding out any hope.  

Good luck with the gestone - I have heard great results using that.  If this doesnt work, we are going to ARGC (have already filled in the forms) and they use gestone.  

Please pm me to let me know whether gestone held off the bleeding (and hopefully worked).. I would be really interested to know.

When are you starting?

Linlou x


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,
Have you had your progesterone levels checked?  Can you not get gestone from your clinic now?  Add some more cyclogest... it cannot hurt.
It seems such a shame to wait for another cycle

Daisy
x


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Daisy

I am on 4 x 400mg cyclogest - my clinic doesnt believe the gestone is any better than cyclogest so a fighting a losing battle - really need a change of clinic.  But with 1600mg cyclogest a day - surey that is enough?


Linlou x


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## Springflower (May 23, 2010)

LinLou

You couldnt have put it any better.  I hate that I never get further than one week, I feel like I'm out before I've even got started!  The faint postive looks like a good sign though, I agree don't get your hopes up but you never know....

I'm at LWC for my last go there, if this one doesnt work I think I'm off to ARGC too.  I also don't get many eggs, although I'm lucky that so far the quality is has been good.  I'm lucky that my clinic has decided to throw everything at this go, will be on Clexane, pred, baby aspirin to help things along.  I really want blood test right the way through but this doesnt seem to be something my clinic offers.  Will be asking when I have my scan though.

Not 100% sure when I'm starting but I think it's probably towards the end of next week.  Expecting AF on Sun/Mon and I'm on the short protocol.  

I've got loads of cyclogest left, I may use that also if it's not possible to over dose!

I really hopes this one works for you! if not though I'd be interested to hear about ARGC.  Where are you at the moment?


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,

Just wondered why you are expecting AF on Sun/Mon?  IVF cycles are completely artificial and have no bearing on your normal mentrual cycle.  Usually you do not start to bleed until you stop progesterone on a bfn.  However, some bleeding in early pregnancy can be quite common, so it ain't over yet!!  Could be a good sign, especially with your faint pos. already??

By the way, I am sure LWC would do a beta plus progesterone blood test if you asked them. It is very easy for them to test for both on the day of your beta.  You can explain how worried you are about your levels??

Keep on keeping on!  I know how hard it is... 

Best to you,
Daisy
xx


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi girls!

Springflower - I am on clexane, pred, baby asprin aswell.  Just not gestone.  Funny thing is I produce loads of eggs (36 this time) but only 2 good ones at day 3 - how naff is that!  My clinic certainly doesnt monitor you - their theory is if it is a strong pregnancy it will work and you can't rescue a failing one..... end of.... I am on SEFC in Tonbridge.  Apparently you can take gestone and cyclogest - so I would go for it if I was you.  If this fails I will send my forms off for ARGC straight away - I phoned them already and they said they are booking consultations for mid December at the moment (nothing like having a back up plan hey)! - wishing you the best of luck for this coming cycle - may your dreams come true x

Daisy - it was springflower expecting her AF this  Sun/Mon   Also re BFN and progesterone, even on my BFN I ALWAYS bleed day 5, 6 or 7.....  but have never been put on gestone which I am angry about - you are right on the date of my beta I will ask them to do progestrone as well - I am at SEFC - Springflower is at LWC - thank you so much for your help/opinions - very much appreciated and congrats on your twins - I bet these 4 years have flown by xx

Linlou


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,

Gosh, I am so sorry.  I don't normally post to the wrong person and I am embarrassed to say that I have done exactly that!!  Speed reading not my forte obviously!

Just interested as you have many eggs but low embryo rate on day 3 - may be a sperm issue??  May also be clinic's skill and/or protocol?  Have you been tested for PCOS?? If you don't have success this cycle, then I really recommend some further testing if possible (as detailed in previous post).

Best,
Daisy 
x


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Daisy - ha ha no problem re wrong post!

re: embryo rate, we are using donor sperm so supposedly "good healthy sperm"...I was tested  a few years ago for pcos.  I really think it is wrong protocol/clinic skills (well I hope anyway!)which is why we will be moving to the ARGC if this doesn't work ....

take care 

Linlou xx


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,

Sadly, things can change over the course of a few years, so up to date testing very advisable.  I hope that you don't have to move on, but if you do then ARGC a top choice and they will do more investigations into implantation failure etc.

Best of luck to you,
Daisy


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Daisy

If we do need to to to the ARGC I know I am in good hands and will have every investigation under the sun! x

Linlou


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## wildflower (Jan 30, 2009)

Hello, may I jump in and ask for advice? I have just had a BFN with early bleeding.

I've just completed my first and only IVF cycle on the NHS. It ended in a BFN but I was gutted that I started bleeding so early. I'm totally with you LinLou, I just felt cheated that I didn't even get anywhere near OTD. The bleeding started on day 8 and got really heavy on day 9.

We are going to have a little break as I found the whole thing pretty tiring - I was on a high dose of menopur as I've got endo and only one ovary so was an expected poor responder. But to keep my spirits up I've been trying to plan and work out what to do next. We'll have to pay next time round and I'm wondering what to do to make the most of the money we'll need to spend.

Would you guys advise that I get some tests done now? Or should I do one more cycle to see how it goes first? Should I make sure the clinic we choose next will provide me with better progesterone support if that is what I need? How do I determine if I need that or not?? What tests should I be asking for?
Any advice greatly appreciated. I really have no idea how I should go about picking which clinic we should go to. (I live in Birmingham so the London clinics you mention aren't on the list of possibilities)

LinLou -  you mentioned you are bleeding already but I really hope and  that tomorrow you get a bfp and it all works out.
Springflower - Hope your upcoming cycle is successful  too

Daisy - congrats on your twins   

sarah x


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## Springflower (May 23, 2010)

Hi Sarah - Firstly I'm so sorry your first attempt didnt work, it's gutting isn't it.

It's so hard because IVF is sooo expensive.  I think I would probably  go ahead without having any tests at this stage.  But when picking your clinic you want to make sure you go for one that understands that you bleed early on your last attempt and so should up the progestrone.  I know it works for most people, it's unfortunate that some of us have stubborn bodies that seem to ignore it!

LinLou - How's it going?  I know I will be having a serious think after this attempt about plans going forward.  I'm interested in ARGC but am worried about the spiralling costs if I go there.  I'm thinking of you as you get nearer to testing.  Do you spot normally before AF?  

Daisy - I'm going to ask blood tests, after all if you don't ask you don't get!  Can I just ask what's a beta test?  I haven't heard of that.

AFM - Still waiting for AF, I know she's on the way as I'm spotting but I just want her to show up so I can start this merrygoround again!


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi Sarah - I am so sorry for your BFN. I agree with Springflower - I wouldnt go ahead with further tests at this stage as they do say on average it takes 3 attempts before you get a BFP, however, whatever clinic to decide to cycle with, I would insist on gestone injections as your progesterone support. All the research I have done about us "early bleeders" - people tend to have the most sucess using gestone. Here is a link to find out the best clinics in your area : http://guide.hfea.gov.uk/guide/ - you need to compare the "clinical preganancy rate" results - the average is around 29% sucess rate but there might be some higher in your area.

Hi Springflower - ARGC costs can sprial out of control depending on the result of your tests.... it is an expensive clinic but has double the sucess rates - 60.2% clinical preganancy rate for under 35's! That is amazing as the average is 29%. The reason it is so expensive is they scan you every day during your stimulation and give you blood tests everyday, and also, if you result in a BFP they give you blood tests every other day and scans every week I have read up until week 12! expensive and intense but if you end up with a baby in your arms - well worth it! But at the end of the day you can't leave yourself homeless ha ha!

I do not usually spot before AF - red blood has turned brown today and still testing a faint BFP and today is my official test date - have been here before though when it turned BFN 2 days after test date - so none the wiser! I will have to go for a blood test tomorrow (if still testing BFP on pee stick tom morning) and again on Wednesday to get my HCG levels 2 days apart - so, unless I test negative on pee sticks before then, we wont know the results until THURSDAY! AAHH is driving me mad! - now feel robbed that I can't feel happy we have a BFP on test date like most people do - oh well!

It is soooo expensive, all this infertility business and sooo unfair that we have to pay to have a baby! - when you see grubby 15 year olds pushing their babies down the high street, which WE are paying their benefits for them! ahhh rant over.....

Anyway girls, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

I will keep you updated xx

Linlou

/links


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

I certainly would recommend more tests as many of the basic reasons for failure are testable via the GP and potentially via your clinic depending on thier skill and interest in finding out why you are getting bfns.

There are many reasons for failure.  If you have had 2 or more bfns or miscarriages, then it is may not just bad luck but one of a number of reasons such as:-

Age - obviously the biggest factor in chances of success esp. over 42.
Skill of the clinic (look at their live birth success rate for your age group).  If you are not happy get a second opinion at a clinic with high success in your age group.
Sperm issues - dna fragmentation testing, karyotyping for DH etc
Uterine issues - fibroids, polyps, endometriosis is a huge red flag for implantation/immune issues and would warrant having immune testing (e.g. NK cells, Antinuclear antibodies). 
Karyotyping for you and DH to check that you do not have any genetic issues.
Clotting issues - e.g. antiphohpholipid antibodies, Factor V Leiden, MTHFR etc etc.
Autoimmune issues - Including one of the top reasons for failure - Thyroid issues - TSH needs to be between 1 and 2 for fertility.
Insulin resistance (e.g. PCOS) etc.
Infection - check for clamydia, mycoplasma, ureaplams which can cause failure and m/c
Finally, level 2 immune testing which is a very specialist area.  Some clinics are able to do this (e.g. ARGC, Lister, CARE Notts) or find a private practitiober like Mr Gorgy.

Your GP can run many of these basic tests (e.g. clotting screen, thyroid, insulin resistance, infection and possibly karyotyping).

It may be bad luck, but in my experience so many couples fail again and again only to later discover that they have other issues and need treatment such as aspirin, clexane, steroids and possibly IVIg/intralipids etc.

There are some issues which may mean that you do not adequately absorb progesterone pessaries which is why gestone will deliver p4 into your blood stream at very high doses and is considered the gold standard in the US (where clinics have much higher success rates than the UK).

So, I would definitely get the clinic to discuss in detail reasons for failure and get 2nd opinion if poss. as well as the basic tests via GP.

Best,
Daisy
x


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## wildflower (Jan 30, 2009)

Thankyou all so much for all your advice. I've had a a bit of a tearful weekend so it is comforting to make some progress on thinking about what to do next. My fear is that the endo has affected the quality of my eggs too much for us to achieve a bfp, but it would be great to get the pregesterone / bleeding dealt with for next time. That would rule out out problem at least.

LinLou - sorry to hear you don't get a clear cut answer today. So good that you get a bfp though. It sounds like it could work this time, and if not then you have some really encouraging results to work with. Really hope that this pregnancy goes full term.

sarah x


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## LinLou (Jun 28, 2009)

Hi everyone

Just to let you know I did another test this morning (well actually another 3!)and they were all negative - so it looks like we are off to the ARGC!  I need that money tree to grow in my garden pretty rapidly!

Springflower - good luck with next treatment - pm me if you want to know more about the ARGC - I was told our consultation should be Dec/early Jan. x

Daisy - thank you for your all advice 

Harissa - I hope you come to a decision on what to do next - I hope the tears become less frequent and you will find the strength and determination to give it another go - if you ever need someone to talk to pm me.  My last 5 years has been full of tears so I know exactly how you feel but it does become easier as you become stronger x  Remember it was only your first attempt x

Linlou


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

LinLou,

I am really sorry to hear your news.  I am so glad you are moving on to the ARGC and wish you success there.

Best wishes,
Daisy
xx


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## Springflower (May 23, 2010)

Ohhh LinLou - I'm so sorry to hear your news.  Eugh, it really is a horrific thing to go through.  I really hoped it was going to be good news when I logged on this evening.  Am thinking of you.  I'll be interested to hear what happens at ARGC, I always think having a plan makes things a little easier.

Look after yourself


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