# 46 and trying IVF with my own eggs, am i mad



## Honey Pie

Hi, I'm a new member and quite nervous about posting, not sure why. I have a 5year old boy and have been TTC since he was one.  2 miscarriages when  I was on Menopur and Ovitrelle with timed intercourse.  I kept feeling that i would get pregnant so never properly considered IVF.  Attending SIMS in Dublin, they dont think that i will have success with my own eggs but have agreed to let me try.  It seems crazy as we cant really afford it but i just need to try. Has anyone else out there had experience with SIMS  They are putting me on hte Antagonist protocol, i need to find out exactly what meds i will be on.

Does anyone know of an acupuncturist who will come to the clinic and do needles before and after.  I will be starting cycle in early june.  I'd love to some advice as im new to IVF and pretty scared of it all.  I just hope the clinic give me the best chance.  I also had a consultation with London Womens Clinic and considered going to them .  Dublin would be so less stressull.


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## daisyg

Honey pie,

If you have the financial means and emotional energy to try with your own eggs, then that can be very important as a way of closure before moving on.

Obviously you understand the chances are almost zero, but you seem to understand this.

I am interested in why ivf has been suggested?  You have got pregnant with Stims and timed intercourse before and for your age group, this stands as much chance of working as ivf (unless tubes blocked).  The only woman I know to have a baby with own eggs at 46 used ivf stims protocol with timed intercourse.  Every month when FSH was good, she did this.  Took many months of this protocol though.  Her only ivf cycle failed, yet the other method worked!

Personally though I would have some basic testing before going for it as you have had a couple of miscarriages.  Although these are statistically most likely to be due to the age of your eggs, it is useful to eliminate some other issues which you GP/Sims can test for.  This is especially important if you intend to move to DE at some point as these issues will affect a DE pregnancy.

e.g. uterus - no fibroids/polyps etc.
sperm ok
No clotting issues
Thyroid levels between 1 and 2 plus antithyroid antibodies
Autoimmune testing
Karyotyping for you and partner
Infection (ureaplasma, mycoplasma, chlamydia etc).

Your protocol will depend a lot on your day 3 hormone profile and this will determine the dose of FSH etc.  Short, antagonist protocol is usually considered better for older women.

I hope you can find peace of mind and success.  BUT you do have to realise that there are only a handful (literally) of women who have had an OE live birth at your age in the world!  This is discouraging but the psycological benefits of a peace of mind cycle with OE may be extremely valuable for you.

Best,
Daisy
xxxx


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## Honey Pie

Thank you Daisy or your reply, 
I am looking into the DE option and while this is happening my gut tells me to try a cycle with my own eggs.  It was suggeste that we use IVF Stimms with timed intercourse.  Is that not a lot of drugs to be taking month after month?  i have had most of the tests you suggested done and they all came up fine, except karyotyping. 

Can anyone recommend an Acupuncturist who would come to the Sims clinic?

Honey Pie


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## Honey Pie

Daisy, 
Can you tell me what the abbreviation OE stands for?


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## AliG63

Hi Honey Pie,
Wish you the best of luck, but in all honesty think you are wasting precious time AND money on a round of IVF with OE (own eggs).
My Gynae Consultant told me that eggs just tend not to  fertilize at our age- and while it can happen- it's such a long shot and natural pregancies that don't lead to miscarriage are much more rare.  It's the quality of our eggs that is the problem. I had an FSH of 9, (quite good) and first saw my Gynae consultant at 44, going on 45. She was so dismissive, but I believe realistic, and said our best bet was donor eggs.  This we are doing with a clinic in Valencia.  It saves a lot of time to go straight through a clinic abroad- I contacted several prestigious London clinics, and was told we'd have a wait of between 6- 8 months, which we really couldn't do. I'm now 47 and this is my second attempt , (and I like you, had several courses of acupuncture,!) so really do advise you to think long and hard about it. but best of luck whatever you decide to do. 

Ali xxx


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## daisyg

Honey Pie,

As Ali has explained, OE means own eggs.  Drugs are not particularly an issue as I presume you wouldn't actually do that many cycles??

I understand a cycle for closure, but I have to say I agree with Ali - if you can afford a 'closure' cycle, then go for it.  Otherwise, I personally would move directly on to DE as you may find it could take you more than one attempt even with DE to carry to term.

It is important to know which tests you actually have had as these issues will affect your ability to get pg with DE as well as OE.

Daisy
x


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## GIAToo

Honey pie - I think it is important for you to try with your OE for your own peace of mind and you may be successful.  I have to say that if there are only a handful of women in the world who have got pregnant with their OE in their 40s then I know all of them!    I know personally 7 women (aged 44-47) who got pregnant with their OE - four of them in my family - I was the unlucky one    However i agree with daisy that I would question why they are saying you should now have IVF.  

I just wanted to give you some hope if you are not ready to move onto DE. I understand what the others are saying that the chances are low, but they are not impossible.  I would take into consideration the fact that you've had two miscarriages though, which would indicate that your eggs may not be up to par    

Good luck
GIA Tooxx


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## Fraggles

Hi Honeypie

A friend at work who is 46 is just about to give birth to her LO through OE.

xx


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## daisyg

Hi Fraggles,

Interested to know whether she got pg naturally or via fertility treatment??  45 at conception or 46??  If fertility treatment, do you know which clinic she was at??  Would help clarify relevant information which may be of help to other women in Honey Pie's situation?

Finally, how do you know 100% that it was OE conception as many people do not actually declare DE in my experience?

Best,
Daisy
xxx


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## Fraggles

Hi

I worked side by side with her and she said it was a natural pregnancy having had 2 miscarriages previously. She knows I was having IVF but like with any pregnancy can you ever be sure that even a 25 year old got pregnant through her OE or DE. You only know what someone tells you and I wasn't there when her child was conceived.

But then again I am pregnant at 43 with own eggs.

It may be less likely to get pregnant at 46 with OE but it happens and sometimes it is necessary for own peace of mind to try with OE to accept it is time to move to DE and being ready to make that transition.

Don't be overly concerned about IVF, if I have done it anyone can and believe me as it took me 4 hours the first night, with coaching from a fellow FF'er to do the injections (I was before IVF a needle phobic) it is possible for anyone too. EC is OK as is ET and whilst the tx may be emotional, at least you are doing what you think you need to do, and if DE is something you would consider, you might mourn your own as you  realise it is time to progress, however, how wonderful that we have that opportunity to still bear a child.

I would suggest like DaisyG says to perhaps consider having a hysteroscopy to check and remove any polyps and have as a minimum level 1 immune testing which you can get through your GP but also consider level 2. At least this way you are also giving yourself the bill of health for if you move to DE to increase chances of success.

Fraggles


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## AliG63

Hi Honeypie
Have to agree with Daisy, you may want 'closure', but how much time have you got on your hands, as you're currently 46, and if you have to quickly move on to DE, it may well take several attemps. Really just thinking realistically - my clinic in Spain (who are experts in their field) said they don't know of any women who have conceived using OEIVF past 45, and I really believed those stats are echoed in many other countries- womens fertility plummets at 43+.  Yes, as someone else said women CAN conceive, but you've got to be extremely fertile, and having miscarriages means there's generally something wrong with the eggs/embryos.
Sorry, don't want to pour cold water on, but there are quite a few women who hope upon hope to conceive, and sadly don't. having said all this, best wishes whatever you decide to do. 
Ali xxx


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## Fraggles

I think you might like this story

http://mothering.com/pregnancy-birth/birth-stories

New mum at 50.

x


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## daisyg

Fraggles,

Good story.  But to avoid false hope here.  1) She has had four live births (2 in her 20s and 2 in her 40s).  2) She conceived naturally and not via fertility treatment.

I think it is only fair to point this out.  I know you are trying to inspire, but I do believe in inspiration tempered by stories appropriate to the poster's situation?

Hopefully Honey Pie may find more success in the natural conception or stims. with timed intercourse route... but....

Daisy
x


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## Daisy38

Hi Honeypie,

To directly answer your question "are you mad?", not at all.  
It is so important to exhaust every avenue open to you, because if you don't go forward with trying something you will never know if it would have worked.  Even if the chances are 1 in 100, how would you know if you were that 1 if you didn't try?

You feel passionate about having a second child, it sounds as if this is something you really want and care about so it makes sense to go ahead with your plan of action.......even if everyone else things your mad.

After 12 failed tx cycles, and two lots of surgery, and remortgaging my house everyone thought we were mad......including myself at some points!......in any case only you will know when the right time to stop or move on is.

I'm now 30wks pg with tx cycle number 13, and I'm pleased I kept going despite the odds.  Even my consultant said my successful pg was "unusual"...

Trust yourself,  and your instincts, only you know what's the right course of action for you.

Wishing you the best of luck no matter what steps you take next honeypie  .


Gen xOx


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## daisyg

Daisy,

I do agree with you that Honey Pie is certainly not mad for wanting to give it a go with her own eggs.  I felt exactly the same way and it is really important psychologically to find closure and to come to terms with the next step (whatever that may be).

I needed to do the same before moving on.  Arm yourself with as much information as possible in order to make an informed choice and try with OE for closure if you are able to do this.  Also try to give yourself a deadline where you will be able to stop and move on as I personally found this very helpful for me when deciding when to move to DE.


Best of luck to all,
Daisy
xxxx


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## AliG63

Daisy 38- Sorry, but really don't agree with those principles, 'You feel passionate about having a second child...so it makes sense to go ahead with your plan of action even if everyone thinks you're mad'.  Honey pie is aware she's been trying to conceive for 5 years now, with two miscarriages behind her. Many believe that that the odd's are so low, that it's whistling in the dark to attempt IVf with OE. 

Daisy g - I do appreciate what you're saying about 'closure', and maybe that's what Honey needs to do for her own mental peace of mind and satisfaction, but people shouldn't be given false hope. That's what I felt I wasn't given; I was given it straight by my Ob Gynae, a clnical director, who said DE was our best option, even though I had a good FSH at 44.  She  was realistic and having been in the business about 15 years she knew what she was talking about.  Yes people can, and do, defy the odds, but to give people false hope just isn't fair...
Ali xx


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## daisyg

Ali,

Firstly, I don't believe I have given Honey Pie false hope.  She has realistically no chance of a live birth via own egg ivf and that is fact.  She has a tiny, tiny chance naturally but again, almost impossible.  Therefore the logical step is to stop treatment or opt for DE.  My point is that for some who can afford it (with eyes wide open) a closure cycle can be of benefit. Even if she didn't cycle for closure, then some people do take longer to come to terms with DE as there a complicated issues for both parent and child.

I speak as someone who continued to get pregnant via own egg ivf until I was nearly 45 years old (pregnant on every ivf I have every done from age 44 - 45 plus all my DE cycles and miscarried all but one of them).

I agree totally with you about Honey Pie's odds and chances of live birth at her age with OE ivf, BUT I was trying to ameliorate the message slightly as I do have sympathy with the process.

Sometimes the process of closure is necessary.  At least I hope the posts on this thread have mainly pointed out the reality of OE ivf at 46 while still retaining some feeling for the psychology and emotional aspect of this journey.

I gave myself a deadline of 45 to move to DE driven by many things not least finances.  It made it hard for me as I got pregnant on each of my OE ivfs between ages 44 - 45.  What made it worse was, having moved to DE, I continued to miscarry.  So it took 3 DE attempts before I carried to term.

It is this message I wanted to get across.  At age 46 DE is really the only option and even that may not work first time.  

Very hard to sometimes pitch these things in the right way, I know.  

Daisy
xxxx


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## AliG63

Hi Daisy,
Yes, I don't think we're really disagreeing! Just approaching things differently. I do appreciate what you're saying and think people need to be helped to make realistic decisions based on all the evidence and information they can get.  Absolutely a 'closure' cycle can be valuable if only emotionally and if, as you say, you can afford it,  but, as someone else pointed out, the DE process doesn't always work first, or even second time around.  As you learnt yourself, it took three attempts before you carried to term and time is of the essence for us older ladies!
Hey ho. think Honey is fully aware of this. Do think as you say 'at age 46 DE is really the only option', and people have to arrive at that themselves.  Sure we all wish Honey all the best whatever she decides.
Ali xxx


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## daisyg

Ali,

Yes, that's what I meant to say!  We are both saying the same thing I think and approaching it from our own difficult experiences (as it is for so many of us, sadly)....

I would agree.  Having twins at 46 was the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me, but it took a long time to get there from the start of the process and I would have loved to have shortened the journey just a bit.

Anyway, best of luck to you at the next stage, and wishing and hoping for very good news from you soon.

Best,
Daisy
xxxx


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## AliG63

Hi Daisy,
Yes sure we are both saying the same thing  Know it took you a long time to get there, but what a blessing your twins must be. Your long struggle must have been so worth it! 
Thanks for your good wishes. We're flying out for the transfer next week so fingers crossed it'll work this time.! Good luck to all ladies doing the same!
Ali xxx


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## Han72

Hi all

Honey Pie  sorry to poke my nose in but just happened across this thread and wanted to reiterate the point of view that if you can afford it, why not try an own egg attempt, if only for closure. Ok, so maybe the odds aren't fantastic but I feel that if it's a financial possibility and you don't give it a try then you'll always be asking yourself "what if". And who knows, you may be one of the lucky ones who manage pregnancy with OE  My Grandma did (natural btw, total surprise pregnancy which meant I have an aunt 3 months younger than me and we were as close as sisters growing up  )

There's no guarantee of success with any fertility tx as we all know from experience but I have to say, I would hesitate to tell anyone that anything is "the _only _option" There are usually several options and one or another maybe the one which is most likely to work, statistically speaking. But I don't know all their medical history and I'm not a doctor so I feel it really isn't for me to say definitively one way or another. (And AFAIC where there's eggs, there's hope  )

GIA and Fraggles - Cooo-eeeee   Remember me ?  New username, same profile pic  Look at you two with the  s     Oh and Fraggles, thanks for that link sweets, even if the woman's circumstances aren't exactly the same as Honey Pie's I think it is always encouraging to see success stories 

Love and    and  to all!

xxx


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## Betty-Boo

Hello all - am poking my wee nose in too - honey do what feels right for you and if you can afford another go then why not. You just never know.
I upturned many a stone before moving onto DE.
Do think sometimes we get carried away with facts & figures and actually forget there's a person behind the question being asked.    

Take care Mini x


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## GIAToo

Well said Mini     
xxx


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## GIAToo

Han72 - sorry!  I missed your post earlier!! 'Course I remember you!     
GIA Tooxxxxxxxx


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## AliG63

Hi Mini Minx
Sorry, but do think you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting people's intentions in saying we 'get carried away with facts and figures and forget there's a person behind the question..'.
People are caringly just pointing out the huge body of evidence against going for IVF OE at 44plus, endorsed by eminent Gynaecologists virtually everywhere. The chances of a natural conception, as Daisyg has pointed out, are substantially higher than IVF OE at that age. and that is slim. People shouldn't be given unrealistic expectations I really do feel. Daisy gave the best advice to 'arm yourself with as much information as possible in order to make the best decision,' and consider whether you can afford IVF OE considering that it's highly likely you'll have to move straight on to the donor process, and maybe not even then succeed at 1st attempt.
Hopefully, we all care for one another on ff. Let's be caring  in our advising, but temper it with honesty and realism.

Ali xxx


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## Oceana

Hi Honey,
You mentioned first of all that you really can't afford it. If unsuccessful will you then not be able to afford trying DEIVF? That would be a major factor if it was me, I'm always a realist and want the best odds.
Ali and Daisy have made great points, arm yourself with as much information as possible.  It's so true. I have failed IVF and failed DEIVF and fell pregnant naturally after researching immune issues and how to combat inflammation in the body. I don't think anything I did would of worked without these changes I made. So if there is a free test to be done, get it done first to save yourself time and worry in the long run.
Also acupuncture is best done for up to a few months beforehand so if you are serious about acupunture then you will want it sooner and therefore your regular acupunturist would be able to assist you if you start preparing.
Best wishes.


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## Betty-Boo

Ali - I'm all too aware of the journey as my signature states and currently going through an incomplete miscarriage.  
Just feel that sometimes we do need to take into account feelings as well as facts & figures.
Honey - pie counselling really helped me when I reached this crossroads.

Mini


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## AliG63

Mini minx. So sorry to hear about your miscarriage. I had one myself last year with DE- it's devastating. Best of luck for whatever path you decide on.  
ps Do think I'm taking into account Honeypie's feelings.  Just we've got  different views, based on
hard experience ourselves!. Some are successful, You do hear of natural pg's at 45 plus, they're just fewer and further in between, so trying to convey that!
Ali xxx


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## Fraggles

Hi

I think we all respect Honeypie's feelings but it also important to respect other poster's views and take into account their feelings too even if their thoughts are different to our own.

It is upto Honeypie to decide what is right for her after reading through other people's input but do feel at times some posters have got rather carried away and personalised their responses to other posters which has made me consider whether I actually wanted to post on here at all and very uncomfortable even though I am sure that wasn't the original intention. So on topics where we might feel rather passionate it might also be worthwhile taking a few minutes to consider as well as getting your point across with sensitivity that you are also respecting other's posters feelings.

Donor eggs may very well increase chances of success for us older ladies but when I had tx with OE I had 3 embies all make it to 5 day blast  ET (another subject we won't go into here). My consultant said I defied statistics. Many of the other ladies of various ages who used DE obviously of young donors didn't even make it to ET so they too defied statistics as statistics would have suggested they had greater chances than me of making it to ET and having a successful BFP although I do know I am not out of the woods yet. So as Mini says statistics are just that. 

Although an extreme example I know this more than most. My mum's GP (an excellent GP) said, when he found out that she was pregnant with me "It's a disaster" and my mum was advised to have me aborted as statistics suggested she would die giving birth to me leaving my siblings without a mother, the only reason I am here is the specialist at the hospital was a roman catholic and refused to do it. He would have referred her to someone else but she obviously chose not to see them.

Honeypie, there are clinics that do tandem cycles, I know Serum in Athens do donor egg cycles and always have a back up donor, they also do a program I think called donor rescue for fresh deivf if the original client doesn't not need them.  There is also the option if you are comfortable with it, and your clinic would consider it of doing an OEIVF but talking to your consultant about possibly doing DFET if your own eggs don't make it to transfer during the same cycle. That is the arrangement I had with my consultant so that I knew during that tx cycle I had a back up plan in case I needed it and that I would be PUPO by the end of the cycle.


Apologies I cannot recall if you are being treated at home or abroad but if you haven't investigated it it may be worth contact some recommended overseas clinics on here as they can often be a lot cheaper than the UK and just as good if not better. I had two OEIVF cycles for the prices of one here and that included flights, accommodation and sundries whilst i was there.

Whatever you decide I am sure it will be the right decision for you and despite differing views we all wish you the best of luck on your journey. 

Fraggles


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## AliG63

Hi,

Do think I need to reemphasise that we are trying to be sensitive to others feelings. and maybe responses do get personalised, but we're all in the same boat ttc and it's a very emotive issue for us all. do think we need to be able to express ourselves without feeling censored, but do think we need to focus on helping Honey to arrive at what she wants to do.
Yes DE is successful for some and not for others, many try with IVFOE at 44 and 45 and fail, some achieve their dream. Such is life. 
Having said that, do think Fraggles has made an excellent suggestion that some clinics (ie Serum GReece) do tandom cycles, and Honeypie, you could try one cycle OE and look into a donor egg cycle if it doesn't make it to transfer as Fraggles said. Time is of the essence. I'm very aware that I'm on my second DE cycle and fast approaching 48!!
Best of luck Honey whatever you decide. 

Ali xx


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## Essex Girl

Honeypie

I'm sorry this debate has got a bit heated at times, but I hope it has given you some useful pointers.  I eventually went down the DE route myself, and it is a big step to give up on your own eggs. You need to feel comfortable with it by the time you go ahead with TX, and for some people that can mean one OE cycle even with very low prospects of success.  Counselling may be helpful to think through the options.

I wish you all the best with whatever you decide to do.  Let us know how you get on 

EG x


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## Kazzie40

Hiya girls, hope you don't mind me contributing. I had a tandem cycle at Dogus in Cyprus last year, previous to that I had attempted with own eggs three times before.

My tandem cycle was unsuccessful due to what I found out later was scarring on my womb and tiny polyps probably caused by hidden c which I am still trying to get rid of.

I was extemely glad I did the tandem cycle as it wasn't too much more expensive then an donor egg cycle alone but I did have quite a few drugs left over from the previous cycle.

As I am fortunate to already have children I thought I would try to achieve a genetic link between the new baby and its siblings whether it be via me and my husband or my husband alone.

I didn't mind whether the child was genetically related to us but I felt for the child's sake that if it was possible to achieve then I would be happier knowing for the childs sake it was genetically linked to its siblings.

That cycle was a wake up call on my own eggs, I only seemed to produce one follicle although they collected two at EC, only one fertilized. My own egg  made it to PGD but it had turners syndrome something that has come up before when we have had PGD on our own embryos.

I ended up having three donor embryos transferred that were fertilised by my husbands sperm.
Of course it didn't work but that was probably for the reasons mentioned above.

The tandem cycle really helped me come to terms with the fact that donor eggs were the way forward for me and when the embryos were transfered they did not feel any less mine then ones from my own eggs on a previous cycle.

Having done that cycle has helped me move one more step further in making the decision to go for fresh donor eggs but with donor sperm too this time.

This is because of my husbands poor quality sperm and the fact that he has the balanced translocation to be taken into account.

If I am honest I am pining slightly that if we are lucky enough to achieve another pregnancy the baby will not resemble its siblings but that might be because I would have like to have had another baby that may have resembled the baby I lost in some way.

However I already know that should such joy be visited upon us, we would be extremely lucky indeed.

I suppose in a way what I want to say is for me I couldn't give up on my own eggs at the point I did the tandem cycle but it really helped me realise that I must if I want to achieve a pregnancy full stop.

xxxx


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## Han72

Hey Kazzie  .  for your BFN hon

As has been said, this debate has become _very _heated and I sincerely hope that Honeypie hasn't been completely put off FF as a result, please come back and post honey so we know you're still around! 

It is an emotive subject so it's understandable that anyone who'd feel bothered to post would have very strong feelings on the matter. That being said, I personally feel that there is a fine line between honesty and tactlessness and this is what I try to bear in mind when posting. I don't always succeed, but that's always the intention! I also try to avoid lecturing or hectoring others but, again, I don't always manage it  

Anyway to drag this post back on-topic, I forgot to say in my previous post that although I'm not quite in the age-range concerned by this thread, I'm already at a point where Donor Egg tx is being suggested as the best chance of having babies. It was a difficult decision and I still have my doubts, even though I got the "best" results yet on my DE cycle. In an ideal world (with unlimited funds and a DH who wasn't making noises about giving up altogether  ) I'd go for a tandem cycle next time round. At least then I'd have the opportunity to see how my own eggs do in the petri dish but I'd have the fallback of the donor's eggs should I fail to respond or my eggs fail to fertilise / progress in the lab. And if my eggs do well, I believe they allow you to do a transfer of yours and the donor's embryos so at least that does away with that feeling of "giving up" on your own eggs. I firmly believe that once that baby's growing away in there I'm not going to give a flyer where the egg came from. That being said, I would probably do a DNA test for medical reasons once the littl'un arrived, purely for medical reasons - but I wouldn't keep the DE thing a secret as I don't think its anything to be ashamed of, quite the opposite in fact 

Soooo Honeypie, if you're still with me after all that rambling   the tandem thing is something to be borne in mind if you go with the (not very encouraging  ) statistics as it still gives you the opportunity to use your own eggs but have that Donor back up just in case...

Good luck and love to all 

xxx


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## urbangirl

Honeypie, my situation is a little similar to yours in that I got pregnant really easily a number of times (though they didn't work out) so I never thought I'd have to go down the ivf route and consequently left it really late. It is only 4months ago that I even started having any tests done.  You don't mention what you've had done - just because you've been pregnant doesn't mean everything's okay, I found out that I had a totally blocked tube and another structural problem too, meaning although I could probably circumvent those problems before because of my younger age they have become much more of an obstacle now. Have you had the tests to check that you are ovulating?  That is pretty important info, and what about your amh? I would do some intensive research and start getting all your tests done, that way you can give yourself the best chance of getting pregnant naturally and with ivf (maybe you have had them done, sorry, didn't check your biog).  Also, why not try natural ivf, where they just take your egg from that cycle, it's suposed to be much gentler, so good for over 40's.  I'm going to be doing that after my first ivf, if it doesn't work.  In our 40's 30 percent of eggs are supposed to be chromosomally abnormal (meaning that for some people a lot more will be abnormal but for others alot LESS) - but 70%, in my opinion, is something I'm more than happy to work with.  I think there's a lot to be said for trying ivf with OE, since you haven't tried it before.  And you'll gain lots of useful information from that cycle which would help you if you go on to donor cycles later.  Really good luck with it, the fact that you've had one healthy child is really in your favour.


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## urbangirl

Just wanted to add- you've had two miscarriages, I would read a really good book on the causes and arm yourself with that knowledge before having treatment. Lesley Regan's book is good.


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## Irish Dee

Hello ladies,

Apologies for jumping on to this thread, but just wanted to make a point.  I've never done DE, so I know that I do not have any experience on this subject, but just wanted to add a comment.

I was at my GP recently, (not fertility related) and he asked me how the IVF was going and I was saying that I was concerned that I was going to turn 40 next year and that I felt that time was against me.  

My GP has been a GP for about 30 years and he said the following:  Do you think that your ovaries have a calendar?  Do you think that when you turn 40, that your ovaries are going to pack up.  Everyone of us is different.  We age at different rates, we get old at different rates. Some of us start having periods when we are 10, other not until 14/15. Some of us have lots of fibroids and endo and trouble and others sail through 25 years of periods without so much as a paracetamol.  

In his 30 years as a GP he has seen so many different women with fertility problems and not 2 of them were the same. He has seen 'surprise' babies for women close to 50 and no babies for young, apparently healthy 25 year olds.  Or course there is an 'average' but it is impossible to judge any woman next to another.  He said why do some of us not look 40 when they are 45 and others look 40 when they are early 30's.

When I came away from him, I felt more positive about the future and I really try not to compare myself to anyone else.

I'm sorry to interfere on this thread, but the topic is so interesting.  I wish you all the best of luck in the world whatevery you each decide.

Dee


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## urbangirl

Dee, that's such a lovely post.  I too believe that turning 40 isn't a reason for despair - but it is reason to get serious, get informed and try harder than ever before. (not meaning you personally!!)


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## Fraggles

Dee I think that was a fabulous post. My best friend lives in Australia and at 40 her GP had no kids then she started popping them out and now has 5! Way to go I say.

xxx


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## drownedgirl

There is a big difference between 40 and 46 though

And although even a woman at 46 may have a good egg response to stims is likely to be poor if fsh is high, hence ivf may not offer the same hope as for a younger woman where ivf offers the chance to get many months worth of eggs all fertilised at once!

And a very high % of eggs at 46 will be abnormal 

Even between 39 and 41 I had multiple losses - I got pg 7 times, almost every month we tried
Two of the embryos were abnormal when tested

I never dreamed we would do ivf let alone de, I was sure if we carried trying one day it would work

But then all of a sudden the reality hit me

Guess I had been working through a grief process

I do think counselling can be very useful - hopefully a good clinic would offer that before taking your money 

Good luck with whatever you decide and I hope you cN find peace 

Kazzie, re de ... Our de children all really look like child no 1!


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## AliG63

Dee- excellent post. That perspective certainly offers hope to people who are struggling with these decisions.

Drowned girl.  Very true. There is a big difference between fertility at 40 and 46. The steepest drop is 43+. It's just the genetic material of the egg is more likely to be flawed, which makes miscarriage  more likely  It's a very hard reality and so many experience the trauma of miscarriage.  I, like you, hoped I could conceive naturally at 44 and tried for  over a year, before I realised and was advised that the chances of conceiving were so much higher with DE, and I felt I  wanted a baby so much that having that genetic link seemed less and less important,  but people have to arrive at their own conculsions ..and some do achieve their dream of a natural pregnancy.

With love and prayers for all, Ali xx


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## Nathalie 2010

Sorry to intrude on this thread, but have been away from FF's for quite some time.  

I would just like to say that I have found these posts quite moving...

Thank you,

Nathalie.


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## mrs cocoa

Hello All

Hope it's OK to post - like Nathalie I found this thread moving and several of the people posting have offered me invaluable advice and information over the years (sincere thanks).

This is hard and so very personal. I struggled to conceive a second child when in my late 30s and early 40s, like Drowned Girl, suffering multiple miscarriages. I delayed starting IVF in the first place as my consultant thought I stood a good chance of succeeding naturally, and once I did start, always had very low FSH levels and very good responses to stims. I remember one eminent specialist saying to me that , 'you are the woman you'd like to be if trying to conceive in your 40s'.

Despite all these favourable indicators, I kept miscarrying. Three things then happended in quite quick succession: I lost a pregnancy in the second trimester due to chromosomal abnormalities, I had an ovarian cancer scare, and a Counsellor 'reality checked' my asssumption that I'd eventually get lucky if I just kept on going. That combination of events, though miserable to go through, shifted me to quite a different place. Just keeping on going no longer felt a healthy or viable option and egg donation became the way forward.

Another renowned specialist insisted I would continue to miscarry even with DE, and said I would end up 'begging for [costly autoimmune] treatment'. In the end I became pregnant on my first DE cycle, had a straightforward pregnancy treated only with aspirin and clexane, and am very lucky to have a completely gorgeous son.

I do have regrets about aspects of this journey, and feel frustrated with hindsight about some of the advice I received. Nonetheless, I really couldn't've opted to use DEs at an earlier stage - that decision was driven by experience, rather than logic and statistics (although I am naturally an analytical person and researched my options obssessively).

I think most people know when its time to move on to DE and that in order to feel recconciled and positive about this option, it is important not to try to talk oneself into this choice ahead of time (although I appreciate the overwhelming financial pressures involved). It's a profound decision for all involved and your head and heart both need to be in the right place.

Very best wishes to everyone - I wish you all lots of luck. I hope this hasn't offended anyone.

Mrs Cocoa


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## GIAToo

Mrs Cocoa - another lovely post and I was the same as you when you say "Nonetheless, I really couldn't've opted to use DEs at an earlier stage - that decision was driven by experience, rather than logic and statistics (although I am naturally an analytical person and researched my options obssessively)".  That is why I always try and give people some hope because I know that no matter how many statistics you throw about, each person has to get to the point of moving on in their own time and after their own experiences.  All of these posts are reminding me why I felt ready to move onto DE - not wanting to ever have another miscarriage was a major factor.

As for "your head and heart both need to be in the right place" - even though I'm 17 weeks pregnant, my heart is still trying to catch up    I am hoping the it will be there when I see my lovely little baby, if not before (I'm sure it will).  

GIA Tooxxx


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## urbangirl

I have to correct Drownedgirl here, to have lots of eggs at 46 is unusual, but not 'abnormal'.  There will be some 46 year olds who are 'average' and others who are way below and then others who are way above - they are all totally normal.
Also, FSH will not necessarily be high in the over 40's, mine isn't and alot of other FF posters' isn't, it isn't inevitable in your early 40's, there are many things you can do to protect your fsh. Also, lots of miscarriages happen due to chromosomal abnormlaties,  but many are just presumed to have been lost due to that, as the foetuses aren't tested until you've had 3 miscarriages (and still not necessarily then) this is just an explanation doctors give even when they don't know if it's the cause.  Whether a woman  can get pregnant at this age depends so much on her individual circumstances - and sometimes not- I know a 44 year old who had been single for 5 years, had no knowledge about healthy living at all, smoked daily, drank heavily at least half the week, met a man 10 years her junior and got pregnant immediately!!  You just never know!!


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## drownedgirl

Urban girl, I meant that many of the eggs will be abnormal

In my case I knew they were - two of the embryos were tested after I had d and cs

I was only 39/41 and I got pregnant really easy - but after 7 mcs and 1 chemicAl pg I came to thd conclusion my eggs were too old

As de worked very well for us and I didn't continue go miscarry my pgs I know that it was age that was the problem for me

Maybe if we hD kept trying we might have caught the golden egg eventually ... But I am glad westopped when we did

It is a very personal decision And there is a process to go through grieving the loss of fertility 

I wish everyone the very best


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## urbangirl

Whoops, apology drowned girl! Though still, the majority of eggs would be normal, in the literature inviting older women to take part in research studies at my US clinic they say: "The relatively high incidence of chromosomal abnormalities in eggs of women (greater than 35 years old) is the main factor in the lower implantation rates seen in these older women, It has been estimated that for women between the ages of 40 and 45 years, the chromosomal abnormality rate is *approximately 30%*, whereas in women between the ages of 25 and 34 years, there is only a 5% incidence."

30% ain't great, but a lot of people presume it's much worse than that. Of course, everyone has their own set of experiences and personal cut-off point which is why it's almost impossible to advise anyone what to do.....


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## drownedgirl

I think it must have been much worse thAn 30% for me ... Else between sept 04 and jan 07 when I got pg 8 times in 28 months, excluding months I was pg, miscArrying or recovering I think I got pg in all but 5 of the months we tried

To conceive in 8/13 cycles trying, to but to lose 100%, despite being on clexAne and aspirin, means I hD eggs that fertilised easily but were abnormal

The two losses tested had trisomies (not downs)

I was probBly unlucky - many women hVe successful pgs at 39, 40 and 41 after all! And I had my ds1 when I was almost 38, we hadn't even been trying

My nan had my uncle at 38, and supposedly having late bAbies can run in fAmilies

I do wonder how mNy eggs are good in the AverGe 46 yo though


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## drownedgirl

I presume you have read this - http://www.advancedfertility.com/ivf-age.htm

1% success rate at aged 44

If the original poster would struggle to afford an ivf cycle I don't think it is kind to encourage false hope

I think it is kinder to suggest some counselling to help her discuss her feelings because if money is an issue then it would be better to seriously consider the de option before, rather than after spending money which they don't have

I am not being unkind or unsupportive

Just the opposite, I hope x

/links


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## drownedgirl

http://www.advancedfertility.com/eggquantityquality.htm

/links


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## drownedgirl

Some interesting reading here re mini ivf

http://www.infertile.com/infertility-treatments/ivf-in-vitro-fertilization.htm

Although very positive about this approach for older
Women, the examples are mostly < aged 45

/links


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## drownedgirl

This article says that at age 40 the abnormality rate is 50%

http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/birthdefects.html

/links


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## Kazzie

Hi 
I didn't have a chance to read all the comments but I just wanted to say my bit:

I asked myself the same question at 47.5 - was I mad to try with my own eggs? 

Well, I had this image in my head of me in my eighties (if I'm lucky   ) looking back over my life and saying 'why didn't I just try despite the odds? Now I will never know...' The fear of regret pushed me into doing it, most of my life I have held back but this time it was such a huge thing for me I had to do something even though I knew realistically the odds were massively stacked against me ('zero chance' was quoted by clinic). I just thought I was doing it for closure and the clinic agreed.  Of course I thought/hoped/prayed what if...it works? As Essex Girl said it is very hard to give up on your own eggs and this was my final attempt before I closed the door and started a different life.

Now, I have to be honest and agree that yes, the odds are very, very much against us in the late 40's and it is also important for me to add that my grandmother had my mum around 45/46 so there could be a genetic link (the clinic said this made no difference as she has already had 3 other children, but.....who knows?). Anyway, I went against all advice and am incredibly lucky and grateful as it worked. 

I'm stating the obvious but: If you are thinking of using your own eggs at a later age I think all you can do is arm yourself with as much information as you can, be realistic about statistics, how much it will cost you emotionally and financially, perhaps try to approach it as way of closure and maybe consider DE at the same time (a lot to ask I know - I bought a book to prepare myself 'rewinding your biological clock - all about DE) and consider that if successful both you and the baby may be considered 'high risk'. 

This has been hard to write because obviously part of me wants to say 'oh just go for it - you only live once!!' but that's me being reckless and irresponsible. However, if you are looking for closure then maybe it will help and you might (or might not) just prove those stats wrong...

thinking of you all
Kazzie xxxx

ps  hope I'm not going to get flak from this....I wanted to be supportive and realistic but also to say that sometimes the unexpected can happen.... xx

pps dh just said it in a nutshell    'it is up to the individual'


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## drownedgirl

Kazzie, what a lovely story.

I think it is lovely to have hope, just also important to be realistic about the chances and consider carefully the best to way to balance your heart's desire against the limitations of time, money and emotional strength.

In the end what we all want is our child, we may not know what path we will take to meet that child, but in the end "the soul of the child we have is the soul of the child we were meant to have" (to probably misquote somebody else, slightly)

I just hope that everybody here can find their way to peace and happiness


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## Kazzie

Yes Drownedgirl
you are right, it is a mixture of having hope whilst being realistic, a very difficult combination where IVF is concerned.

That is why I didn't want to go over the top about my own story whilst still making a point that for some it may help to try with their own eggs for closure (or hopefully prove the stats wrong) if it is amongst other things emotionally beneficial and financially ok. I know too that for some it possibly might just prolong the agony to go down such a stressful route and may help to consider DE as I did myself. The book I mentioned is written in a story style, about a ficticious couple who go through IVF using DE. The full title is 'Rewinding Your Biological Clock: Motherhood Late in Life : Options, Issues, and Emotions' by Richard J. Paulson and Judith Sachs.

Kazzie x


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## urbangirl

I stand by my 30%!  My clinic is one of the best in the world so they can't really put out statistics that would not be agreed on by the professionals of the fertility world, they'd be ridiculed for it.  So, I think that 30% is realistic.  I often wonder about the chances of ivf vs natural in our 40's, maybe it's a higher chance to try naturally, but some of us who haven't got pregnant naturally may have a cause behind that other than egg quality, you just don't know until you investigate.  At least everyone seems to agree it's a personal decision, I'm sure the majority haven't really got the finances so it's good to know the odds, try to see where you fit in in those odds (above/below or just plain average- your clinic helps with that) and then just decide whether it's worth the gamble.


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## drownedgirl

I wish you luck ug when you cycle. Did they find a cause for your losses? I think it is important not to assume it is just age ... I did get all the recurrent mc testing done and was referred to st marys as well but in my case it was just the eggs

I will keeP my fingers crossed for you ... When are you doing the treatment? X


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## Kuki2010

Hi Ladies,,
I have been reading all the posts. I found it so interesting. Like to thank you all for your input..
We have been looking at EA last few months. And I am not ready to move on to it yet but DH is. 
Mainly he can not stand me being miserable about whole txing and money issues
I want to try with ours till we are sure we can not have it. Than move to EA.. 
I am going to be 41 in june. And have lots of eggs but had 2 m/cs and 3 BFNs since my First ICIS which resulting my DD. I am sure my eggs are not just great with DH's not great sperms. Makes not great embryoes. But so far we have 85% fertilization rates and had Grade1 embies.. 
We have now left 2 frozen embies which are grade 2 quality. All the great ones did not work. Well one ended up m/c and the last FET was BFN. 
It is such a difficult decision. 
If I did not have DD I think the decision to move on to EA is not going to be this hard.. 
Wishing you all lots and lots of luck to get your darling ones..
Love. Kukixx


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