# Anything negative



## alanelaine (Sep 10, 2005)

OK, so the HFEA and follow-up press have been quite negative about TX abroad and cite unsubstantiated references to "problems", "difficulties" and "bad experiences".

Well this board represents around 100 couples who are considering or have recently undergone TX abroad.

So lets have a list of (leaglly acceptable) down sides.

You'd think I'd start this list myself but I have yet to find a downside attributable to any clinic we've contacted.

I could complain that the  railway from Malaga dosen't reach Marbella or that there aren't quite as many donor matches in southern Spain for a blue/green eyed Scot as we would have hoped but I hardly think that these are the clinic's fault.  Even if we were waiting for a Scottish donor, we know that the time would beat us as the UK lists are so long and there are cut off limits at our local clinic which we would reach befor a donor was found.

However,  I'm really looking for substantiation of the HFEA/press position (if it exists) so come on and give me your genuine bad experiences.


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## Grumpygirl (Oct 24, 2004)

Tony, you are right, there's very little to complain about in our opinion.

The biggest downside for us if that we can't verify the success rates of the clinics we can choose from in Greece since there is no HFEA equivalent there yet. That's why we felt the need to visit and get a feel for the clinics personally, but I would do that in the UK too, it's just further to go. 

Obviously it's a much bigger hassle going abroad for tx as since we have to be there for longer than we would in the UK, and we have to get there, take time off work etc. While the idea of combining it all with a holiday is very appealing my experience is that it's not really a holiday. I personally have never wanted to visit a Doctor on my holiday!

That said it's been an entirely positive experience so far and I can't complain at all. I'd like to see what bad experiences HFEA are talking about.

Lisa
xx


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## MichelleM72 (Nov 20, 2005)

I guess I'll echo Lisa in regards to the travel part of treatment abroad.  While it's not a huge deal, it does add a bit of stress to an already stressful time.

Other than that I honestly can't think of a think to complain about.  Our clinic is very professional and friendly and answers your questions quickly when asked.

Michelle


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## alanelaine (Sep 10, 2005)

Lisa,

Who's Tony?

A&E


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## Flopsy (Sep 18, 2003)

The HFEA bleated on about clinics abroad not offering counselling last time they tried to put off people going abroad. They acted as if this was terrifically imposrtant and that UK clinics offered this free, accessible and of a high standard.

I've had counselling at 2 UK clinics and one was free but awful (Counselor should be sacked) and the other was inaccessible to me as a disabled person and too expensive after all the money we spent.

The HFEA isn't in touch with us, the punters.

I only hope that they are not aiming to influence political opinion to stop people legally from travelling. I mean in the same way people now have to jump thru expensive hoops with overseas adoptions.

Kindest regards,


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## Grumpygirl (Oct 24, 2004)

Alan (& Elaine!)

So sorry, I'm a bit (a lot) dippy and am thoroughly apologetic!    
Please accept my humblest and most heartfelt apologies!!!
Lisa
x


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## Grumpygirl (Oct 24, 2004)

Flopsy,
If they ever do that we'll leave the country for good. Tempting at times anyway! I say this after 2 glasses of white wine but whatever happened to freedom of speech, a right to choose & a free market economy?   It all smacks of fascism to me.
Lisa
xx


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## ElleJay (Sep 4, 2005)

Hi A&E, Michelle, Lisa -

Am I just being over sensitive as 'hormonally challenged' at the moment, or does the HFEA and the media seem to have it in for us?  Have visions of being stopped at the airport on Tuesday and denied travel by the fertility police.........

I would agree that the only downside to treatment abroad is the stress of the travelling - but this time the HFEA, negative press and Olivia haven't helped!

Lesley x


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## casey (Sep 26, 2004)

I agree with the points raised here. The stress of travelling can be off putting to some people but on the other hand, I love travel but the added expense of airfare. hotel and spends on top of £ for tx is diffifiicult. The second issue is that with my first clinic, I found some of the verbal communication to be unclear eg i found out about the refund program via abroadies, the grading of the embryos was slightly different when given verbally compared to the written report, my dh's sA was not very good but this was not discussed with us as clinic did ICSI anyway - none of which caused any harm or distress incomparison with my UK clinic who didn't read my notes properly and carried out the wrong procedure and lost me two embryos  

whether the unclear communication was due  to language difficulties or was thought be irrelevant so not discussed I dont know - but i still found my experience there to be much much more positive than having tx at the my old UK clinic

I don't know if they can physically stop us from going abroad but what concerns me with all this negative press is whether UK clinics will start to refuse to carry out scans, tests and screening for couples going abroad for DE/DS IVF 

caseyx


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## alanelaine (Sep 10, 2005)

I think it highly unlikely that we could be prevented from travelling but casey is right in saying that they could make it more difficult for us to get scans at home.

However, most developed nations appear to be moving in the opposite direction so I expect that this will gradually influence the HFEA particularly as the EU is trying to encourage rights of movement for work and healthcare.


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## Womb with a View (Dec 7, 2004)

Morning all.  Just to add my two-penneth, I agree re the IVF Counsellors.  The one I had as part of my IVF treatment in a London clinic left me feeling ten times as bad as when I went in.  She, infact, tried to put me off going abroad saying it wasn't an easy thing, full of pitfalls and would be a harder journey for me.  She then gave me a leaflet on the DCN!  Says it all really.    Actually, I felt suicidal before finding a way abroad and almost suicidal again coming out of her office.  I went three times and hoped each time would see me getting "better".  I am a professional psychotherapist and hypnotherapist and I was appalled.  Not impressed.

Re going abroad:  my complaint is not a flippant one but genuine.  I cannot stand the sun or the heat and suffer badly from it.  When I went to Spain in late Sept it was only just bearable for me.  Jan and March were good.  However, as it hasn't been successful yet, we have to go back in July when the weather is going to be unbearable for me.  Does this sound like an IVF holiday to you?!!  No.  

I do know that my consultant at Hammersmith Hospital was very pro IM in Barcelona and even said "now you're talking" when I mentioned it.  He fully supported us going there and said he'd had many patients go there and they were professional.

xx


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## crusoe (Jun 3, 2005)

Hi everyone

I just wanted to say that I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the treatment I have received abroad, infact it has been superior to the treatment I received at one of the UK's supposedly leading clinics.
I worried about the language barrier but this has not been a problem at all, infact the communication with Spanish clinics has been better than with my Uk one.
I was forced to have counselling at my UK clinic -what a joke. The counsellor spouted on for 30 minutes, didn't let us get a word in at all and then said he was happy to recommend us as egg share recipents. He couldn't possibly have anything to base his decision on - we didn't even speak other than to say "hello" and "goodbye." We were disgusted by the whole thing. I have had counselling previously for a different issue and saw then how helpful counsellling could be -  this man didn't have a clue!
If I had a choice I would have treatment in the Uk to avoid the hassle and expense of travelling but I don't consider the Uk an option. The waiting lists are wholly unacceptable as is the whole culture around egg donation. Both clinics I have experienced in Spain have been superior to the one in the Uk. I am sick and tired of people like the HFEA banging on about standards of healthcare in the Uk being better than other countries - it is just not true.

Love to all and don't let the HFEA get you down. They just make me all the more determined to get the better of them and succeed abroad.
Crusoe
x


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## AlmaMay (Oct 15, 2004)

Hi Ladies,

It's an interesting question to ask. I think those of us who have been treated in both UK clinics and abroad would forget any problems we have encountered if we got a BFP and our longed for family.

I've found almost every step of this infertility journey humiliating and depressing. When I suggested to my sub-fertility clinic that we were thinking of going abroad for IVF treatment I started to find our journey insulting as well as humiliating and depressing.

My dr told me that she COULD tell me the success rates of European clinics but she WOULDN'T as I should stay in the UK for my treatment. How insulting. The European Society of Human Reproduction & Embryology (ESHRE) collects data like the HFEA on European success rates. http://www.eshre.com/emc.asp

The statistics ESHRE collect are what articles like this are based on http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2103691,00.html

I've had treatment abroad and here and would prefer to have treatment here as the travelling IS hassel that we could do without. BUT if the HFEA continues to interfere with decisions that need to be made by my consultant and my husband and I about the best treatment for us then we will do it again.

Good luck and may all your infertility journeys be short ones.

Almamay

p.s. Just an to add my two penneth on counselling. I've tried it at two of my UK clinics. The first counsellor didn't really help and at times I think made things worse. My current counsellor at the Hammersmith has been fantastic and has really helped me get through a lot of issues IF brings up.


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## casey (Sep 26, 2004)

Hi all 
just felt i needed to clarify things a bit more - i can honestly say that even tho i have raised a couple of issues re communication - i feel that my experience at the first clinic abroad that i went to far surpassed my experience of tx in the UK 
I also think that the matters i raised were oversights and made no difference to the end result as opposed to what happened at my last tx in the uk, whereby i was NOT offered counselling
finally it was the quality of the preparartion ( eg mock transfers, offers of dummy runs etc ) and the communication at the time of tx and afterwards that made the difference for me and convinced us to try again
I have posted this as i felt altho we were asked about negative experiences and i listed some minor issues, i had to balance it with my overall experience of tx abroad which was extremely positive 
caseyxx


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## alanelaine (Sep 10, 2005)

Interesting, nobody has any examples of poor practices.

The inconvenience is definitely a factor but this isn't really the overseas clinics' fault; this arises, at least in part, as a consequences of the HFEA changes.


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