# 44 year old - TTC Naturally



## Curly_Jay (Apr 2, 2013)

Hi Ladies,

I am in a dire state and I don’t know where to ask my question and I need advice.  Apologies for the long message but I need to tell you ladies the full picture of myself.

This past year I have had 3 IVF cycles with donor egg due to my age and because of DH who had a vasectomy.  I say had because a month yesterday he had it reversed after 8 years.  The clinic we were going put me straight to donor eggs as they sort of refused to treat me using my own eggs without even testing me for my AMH, FSH…  As we were being funded for the 3 cycles by our local NHS we accepted the situation and moved on.  DH had a TESA and we had enough for the 3 cycles.  First cycle I got pregnant but there was no heartbeat so I had to miscarry naturally.  Second cycle I got pregnant again and baby was doing great but unfortunately at 9 weeks it’s heart stopped beating from one week to the next and I had to have a D&C.  Third cycle was a very traumatic one with the eggs not fertilising until way past is allocated time.  Once the eggs had finally fertilised I had 2 embryos transferred unfortunately the cycle was a negative.

As I said before DH had his vasectomy reversed last month.  The surgeon, Mr Harriss, was very happy with the operation; he said it had been a very straightforward and clean reversal.  We want to give ourselves a break from IVF and try naturally.  

This month I have had the weirdest period of my life.  I got my period on the 10th June and normally my cycle is 3 days long max 4.  On the 2nd day it stopped and next day and until the 18th June I have been spotting with a very light reddish blood.  Everyone I tell is saying that it is stress because my DH’s ex announced last week that she is pregnant, but my period stopped days before we heard the news.  I went for a check up with my gynae yesterday and he said that it could be a tiny cyst that has exploded?  He checked my ovaries and saw on the right ovary 1 follicle of 4mm and on the left he saw 1 follicle of 7mm and my endometrium is of 1mm.  Obviously if I had had a normal period my follicles would have been bigger and my endometrium thicker by now?

I told him we want to be trying naturally for a few months and he suggested clomid.  I have heard of this medication before but I have never looked into it.  Would this medication help my follicles?  I am currently using the clearblue monitor and the days are still marking low when they should be marking high, it should be peak tomorrow.

I am also taking lots of supplements and only started with the DHEA 2 days ago which I also asked the doctor and he was all for it as he prescribes it to many women.

Please, any help or advice is very much appreciated.

Curly_Jay xx


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## TammyWynet (Mar 31, 2012)

Hi Curly Jay, I am so sorry for your losses, it must not have been easy. Good that you are not giving up! I have used Clomid when I did the IUI treatments (I am single so I need the help of a doctor and a sperm donor  ) It almost every time gave me two beautiful follicles (I have been pregnant with twins twice but both times ended in m/c). And on the rare occasion there was only one it was huge (24mm). So it sounds like a good thing to do. 

You have to take it on day 3,4,5,6,7 of the beginning of the cycle. As a side effect I always had headaches during these days. But that was the only thing. 

What I also heard was that ladies over 40 are using Puregon to inject. Maybe that is stronger. But I would surely give the Clomid a try. But keep in mind that there could be 2 follicles so th possibility of twins is there as well. 

The reason I am not using it anymore is that after my 2 IVF/ICSI treatments and another double cryo transfer I cannot stimulate my cycle anymore. I tried and everything went into overdrive and I got a cyst instead of a follicle.

So for me it is all natural and hope for the best. 

I wish you good luck and success in achieving your goal, a baby!


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## Curly_Jay (Apr 2, 2013)

Hiya Tammy,  I am ever so grateful for your reply.  And thank you for your wishes    I also wish the same to you.  We must never give up on our goal!

A question about Clomid; can you take this medication like every month and does it have to be monitored by the Doctor to see how the follicles are going?

Thanks hun,

Curly xx


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## TammyWynet (Mar 31, 2012)

I took it every month and I got ultrasounds but only to monitor the timing of the IUI. It is not really necessary to monitor every month. I can imagine that you want to monitor the first month or the two first months just to see what it does to the growth of the follicles and how your body reacts. After that I just would use ovulation tests.


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## Astral (Feb 16, 2010)

Hi Curly_jay. I am 43 and we have been ttc naturally since last years failed IUI attempt. A year on no luck and my periods are going a little haywire too now. So much so, I am getting blood tests, swabs and a scan on the NHS (to check for cysts or perimenopause). Your AMH sounds good ! Mine was less than 2 last April, so over a year ago.

As a result of all of that, I have been looking into natural/mild IVF. Its about £1800/1900 in the few clinics that do it (Exeter, Bristol London and Serum in Greece). I don't know of any others, but it seems to be a better option for older woman than conventional IVF. Have you considered this? I think the odds are slightly better than IUI at this age.


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## Highland (Jun 17, 2013)

Hi
This might be helpful. . . I had our daughter when I was 42,  after help with acupuncture treatment and herbal medicine. There is peer reviewed scientific evidence to support the view that acupuncture increases success rate with IVF, and. I believe our natural  conception was supported by my use of acupuncture. Whatever route you take, it can be stressful and lonely at times, taking an hour a week of "me time" to have acupuncture is time well spent, in my view. Best of luck.


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## littlewhisper (Feb 28, 2013)

Hi Carly ,

So sorry to hear about your cycles it's so traumatic to see a heart beat then lose it  
In terms of your period it's hard to say but depending on how long since your last IVF sometimes it knocks your flow out quite a bit.

Also wanted to ask how on earth did you get three cycles on the NHS?  

LW xx


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## Altai (Aug 18, 2013)

Hi ladies,

I am the same age group, so good to read that there some of us still not giving up.

I've been ttc naturally between ivf cycles - doing ovulation induction/timed intercourse. Though I have never been on clomid. The Dr said that clomid causes lining thinning and recommended against its use.  The clinic put me on femara (letrozole) for some induction courses, on others  i was on a low dose of menopur every other day (3 doses in total),  had scans and trigger shot. 
As Tammy said would be helpful if ivf nurse monitor you for few cycles, so you would know your ovul time.

Astral - Create health in London specialiases in natural/modified natural/mild ivf, but  i think any other clinic in London  would do the same (Lister).

best of luck


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## Astral (Feb 16, 2010)

Thank you Altai.. I actually live in Cornwall, so London is tricky for me, but Create have a satellite clinic in Bristol. I did some research, other than Serum in Greece and BCRM and Exeter, I had heard of Create Harley Street and the new Bristol centre. I have made an appointment to discuss natural ivf, but perhaps I need to research other clinics. I see that ARGC and Lister are very popular on the boards.


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## mscandy35 (Sep 4, 2013)

My doc once mentioned, 18-22 mm is considered a good mature follicle and anything over 25mm will not be releasing a viable egg and is really just a cyst .
Clomid works as an anti-oestrogen that tricks the brain into thinking that oestrogen levels in the body are very low. It does this by binding to oestrogen receptors in the brain and blocking the ability of oestrogen to bind to those receptors.  The brain then thinks that oestrogen levels are very low so it releases GnRH hormone which goes to the pituitary gland and stimulates release of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). The job of FSH is to stimulate development of a mature follicle (egg containing structure) in the ovary.
Infertility specialists and some gynaecologists monitor the development of follicles with "follicle checks" by ultrasound scans with or without monitoring blood hormones during clomiphene treatment cycles. This approach allows clarification of the level of response and is a good way to determine the proper timing for sex or intrauterine insemination, IUI . Usually when Clomid cycles are monitored an HCG trigger injection will be given to the woman when the growing follicle(s) is at a mature size. The HCG trigger injection acts in the body just like an LH surge would - and ovulation should occur about 36 to 40 hours after the shot is given.
When follicle scans are used with Clomid along with an HCG injection, the ideal follicle size for getting mature eggs is about 18 to 30 mm diameter at the time of the HCG injection. However higher doses, may just increase the chance of cysts . 
Hope you got answers to a few of your questions .
Candy.


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## Molly99 (Apr 16, 2012)

Hi ladies, sending you all lots of  

I'm so sorry to hear your story Curly_Jay, you've been through such a rough time xx  My husband had a vasectomy reversal too, it was technically a success but he has extremely high abnormalities and poor motility as a result.  I know how difficult it can make TTC and I really feel for you with his ex pregnant again.  I'm praying that doesn't happen and that DH's ex stops at 5 children  

Astral, we've had 3 mild cycles with Create and live in Cornwall too.  I can't say that travel wasn't a challenge but it was do-able, though it does add to the costs.  The Bristol clinic is just lovely though, such a different experience to the London ones (you'll have all treatments in Wimbledon), when that opened it really changed it for us and made it such a lot easier.  I have heard that there will be flights from Exeter to London from September I think it was, which will rival train travel and cost around £40-50!!  That would have helped enormously!!

xx


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## Curly_Jay (Apr 2, 2013)

Hiya Ladies,  thank you all so much for taking your time to reply to my post.

It is great to know that us 'oldies' like all the medical professionals categorise us, are not giving up in trying to create our family with our own eggs.  And all the positive stories just makes us not to want to quit and be hopeful  .

- Littlewhisper; The last time I had IVF was back in February and since then my periods have been normal and on 28 day cycles.  And as to your other question, I am not in UK but in another European country.

- Highland; I've heard about acupuncture before, do you go every week?  Where I live each session is over £50.00 and unfortunately with other expenses right now I just can't afford it.  Although I am taking a tonne of supplements and keep going to the gym 3 times a week  

-Molly99; I remember you from a thread I opened regarding vasectomy reversals, and I remember you being a little under the weather in regards to your DH's ex.  Who would have thought that I would find myself in this situation too.  The news from my DH's ex hasn't taken us by surprise as when she found out about our last pregnancy/miscarriage in August she threatened that she also wanted another child.  Don't know why she wants a 3rd child when she abandoned her first 2 to live the life with her toy boy!  But hey, if it rocks her boat... And we can patiently wait by the side lines for Ms Karma to come and make her a visit  

I have an update though...  I don't know if I mentioned that I am using the Clearblue Advanced Fertility Monitor and besides that DH and I have been actively BD for the past month, although we are officially on a well deserved rest week lol.  Well, comparing last cycle to this past one on the monitor I ovulated really late this month.  Obviously we were BD every day like a week before and until past ovulation (yes, we are on a mission lol).  My usual OV symptoms are 1. a sharp pain on the ovary where egg is about to be released and 2. a little bloating.  Once egg is released the symptoms disappear.  Well, OV was extremely strange.  I had pain in both ovaries but not sharp, maybe dull. Lots of cramping in my cervix and my lower back was killing me to a point I could hardly walk straight.  And my whole abdomen (stomach and tummy) became really bloated (and it's not gas).  It is day 6dpo and my abdomen is still extremely swollen and hard.  All I can compare it to is to when I've had the progesterone pessaries in the past and the transfers have turned into a BFP.  My nipples are extremely sore, and boobs seem bigger.  Another symptom is that I keep repeating anything I eat during the whole of the day, and this is a very peculiar symptom which I always had with both pregnancies.  DH saw my tummy yesterday and he said the same!  We don't want to jump of joy just yet nor do we think that we will be that lucky?  It's only been 6 weeks after DH vasectomy reversal!  

With IVF it's so easy!  You know when your transfer day is and you can monitor yourself along the way and then your gut feeling takes over!  But with a natural cycle how can we be sure we are not making up these symptoms and not go insane until the day of your period or your OTD    If I hadn't gone to a check up 2 weeks ago and the scan showed I don't have anything abnormal I would be worried that I would have something serious lol

That's all for now, ladies  

Curly xx


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## MissBopeep (Aug 18, 2014)

Hello CurlyJay
you are in the same boat as me - more or less. I am 43. 44 next month.
My DH had VR with Mr Harriss in Feb after 14 years! It has been successful because I have had 3 bfps since (3 from my last 4 cycles) although they didn't stick. I have also been scoping and seen the little suckers! - obsessed!
I am taking a few vits and baby asprin, just started DHEA and thinking of doing acupuncture.
I really want to keep it as natural as possible despite the desperation over my age.
I want mother nature to say yes or no.
So annoyed that we were given bad advice 7 years ago, told by GP and later a consultant that we were wasting our money on a VR (what did they know). That advice has cost me dearly.
My cycle is a regular 27/28 day with ov day a bit early at 10/11 so think I probably have an egg quality issue. I think royal jelly may have brought my od forward so I have ditched that now.
I would love to know how you get on, perhaps we can prop each other up now and then?


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## Curly_Jay (Apr 2, 2013)

Hello MissBopeep, I had totally forgotten about this thread!  It is lovely to hear from you and bumping the thread, thanks  .

It's great to know that your DH's vasectomy has worked and it has been proven!!!    Well done, chick!  It's fantastic when we prove doctors wrong!!  Like yourselves we had always been wrongfully advised regarding his vasectomy reversal.  We took the leap of faith after the 3rd failed IVF cycle, and we haven't looked back.  Did you send Mr Harriss your DH's sperm analysis?  My DH is having his done on the 8th Sept when we come back from our holiday, although he had a very simple one done last month (only quantity and motility) and he had 52% motility and I was WOW!  good job lol.  Even my gynae was impressed with him     and wanted to know who had performed the reversal lol

An update on my past posts is that I had gotten pregnant first time round but it didn't stick.  I took the Clomid on July and had 3 big follicles but we weren't lucky.  The day I ov DH was wiped out and couldn't do the deed so we did it the following day that I was still showing 'peak' on the monitor but obviously we didn't catch the egg.  Just finished my 2nd round of Clomid last Saturday so just waiting for my peak in a couple of days, although I've been on a 'high' on the monitor for the past 4 days  

I take lots of supplements which I read from one of the topics in this forum.  I can't remember the title but I have it bookmarked.  I rattle when I walk but they make me feel good, like I am in control every month of my own destiny and don't leave everything in mother nature's hands.  I take:-

Breakfast - Royal Jelly, B Complex, B6, and Aspirin
Lunch      - 3 DHEA, Pregnacare, and 5mg Folic Acid (been taking DHEA for 6 weeks now)
Dinner      - Fish Oil, Co-Enzyme 10, Zinc, & Selenium (used to take Iron too but I finished the bottle 2 days ago)

As we are older we need to stimulate our eggs to be in the best shape possible.  DHEA could improve the quality of the eggs as well as the fish oil and co-enzyme.  Zinc and selenium are more inclined to prevent miscarriage and help the embryo to implant.  B6 is supposed to help produce progesterone and will help you have a longer luteal phase, so if the royal jelly is making you ovulate sooner maybe taking 50mg of B6 can help you?  We also need our lining to be in tip top condition so the co-enzyme improves the quality of the eggs and fish oil is really good to promote blood flow to the ovaries.  Because I have blood clot issues (reason why 2nd baby fell asleep too soon) I take a high dose of aspirin and as soon as I have a BFP I have to take Clexane.

Will be ovulating maybe Friday/Saturday and my next period would be on the 4th Sept.  Hoping to test and get a BFP whilst on holiday in Paris celebrating our 5th year together     

Let me know how you are doing and if you want the link to the supplements topic  

Curly xx


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## MissBopeep (Aug 18, 2014)

Hey Curly, thanks for replying. This is the first forum I have signed up for (although I've stalked loads   )
I am pretty much taking all those things except B6 and fish oil - B6 may be in the pregnacare though. I'll check and maybe increase that.
I have had DH on male pregnacare since just before the op.
We haven't done the sperm analysis - we are getting BFP's so I dont want to burden myself with SA results (something else to worry about) I think there may be an antibody issue as when I scope them I can see clumps stuck together trying to wriggle free, however its not stopping one of them hitting the target! I am also using pre-seed on at least one of the BDs each cycle, think it might help them escape the antibodies. I don't use it every time, as I have good EWCM.
VR was mid Feb and 1st BFP came in May - just a timescale indicator for you. Initially I could see live swimmers under the microscope but they weren't moving much, that has improved a lot over time.
What dose of DHEA are you taking? I started 25mg last month but I have now increased to 50mg (I am petrified of disturbing my perfectly predictable cycle   )
Wishing you the best for this next cycle. I got a 15dpo BFP on Sunday afternoon and by the evening I got a 2 day early AF which is exactly what happened on the May cycle. I got an 11dpo inbetween but that disappeared on 12dpo. then af arrived at normal time. According to FF I will be ovulating again next Weds, 
will keep you posted
im sure its much less stressful than the ivf route. xx
bye for now


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## MissBopeep (Aug 18, 2014)

Hi again Curly,
Since you mentioned about the B6 I checked the pregnacare which is already a massive dose over the rda. Reading around, that has now got me thinking it could be that which has affected my od and not the royal jelly (thanks  ). I am going to stop the pregnacare and just take folic and a basic multivit this month to see if my od goes back to 12/13. Although I'm not sure if not taking it for 7 days will be enough to make a significant change - oh its like stabbing in the dark! I was on a good 12/13 OD until I started with all the supplements in Dec, my cycle length has remained the same though.

You are probably already doing this (because it was advised by Mr H) but i think its really important to keep your other halfs production going by regular ejacs. Mr H said at least once a week. I know because of scoping it definately does have an effect on the sample. If we leave it, say a week, there are a lot of dead sperm in the sample, if we do it say every third day there are far more lively sperm and less dead ones. As soon as I get Af I insist on a 'clearout' every other day up to my fertile window. (We call it BJ central  ) 

hope this helps (I think you may have helped me already - I'll let you know x)


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## Curly_Jay (Apr 2, 2013)

Hiya BoPeep, apologies for not replying sooner.  I usually look at my emails either on the phone or on the ipad therefore I had your notification in the junk box and only seen it today.  I've also just come back from holiday, bummer    So sorry to hear about your short lived BFP     I hate it when that happens.  Fingers crossed for this coming cycle     

Thanks for your messages, they have been really helpful.  This month my cycle has been a bit of haywire as I even ovulated a whole week late.  I got 9 'high' days on the monitor, 2 'peak' days, and another 'high' day.  Poor DH was wiped out, lol!!  The 2ww was full of my usual pregnancy symptoms, so much so that I was convinced we had hit the bulls eye again when my af due date came and went!  Unfortunately it was short lived as 2 days after the witch came by with no announcement whatsoever  . 

This cycle has made me rethink my usual approach and I have come to the conclusion, like you, that upping my B6 dosage to 50mg has caused me to ovulate late and have lots of symptoms during the 2ww.  So as from today I have ditched the B6, B complex, royal jelly.  I am also going to take a break from the aspirin even though I need it to thin my blood.  I am black and blue all over with bruises   I will still keep taking my 75mg dose of DHEA, pregnacare, 5mg folic acid and co-enzyme.  I am also considering dropping the fish oil, but I'll have a good read through tonight at home and see whether to keep it or ditch it!

DH had his sperm tested on Tuesday and the results will be back in 7-10 days time.  I never knew you could scope them, lol.  Do you do it at home?  DH also takes 1000mg of vitamin C which apparently helps to get rid of the antibodies.

I've also been busy participating on Mumsnet, on the conception forum.  It's quite entertaining there and it's exactly what we need to take our minds of TTC.  If you come by there I have the same profile name.  Every month there is a supposed 'bus' which will supposedly drive us to the BFP destination and we all gossip about our EWCM, TWOT (two week of torture) and our baby dancing, lol.  Come over, you'll see how fun it is


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## MissBopeep (Aug 18, 2014)

Hi Curly,
sorry I didn't see your reply either! I have to log in to check.
Im currently on 14dpo all sticks stark white so far  but I did ovulate on day 11 this cycle, instead of 9/10 so Im hoping ditching the B6 has had some effect? Ive decided just to take coenzyme Q10 and folic. 
I'm finding it a bit disheartening at the moment, sorry about your bfn, its even worse when you get a good feeling about a cycle and then it doesn't pan out  
I borrowed a microscope from my local college, its really easy to do at home, and fun! The swimmers are really lively now compared to when I started looking at them, so improvement over time has definitely happened.
I figure this is my 5th cycle since we had viable swimmers so my cumulative odds are increasing! got to find some positive    
keep in touch  (wouldn't it be great if we both actually get there?)


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