# Robert Winston BBC Infertility Series (A Child Against All Odds)



## mp (Jul 12, 2005)

Hi

I've read that a BBC documentary called "A Child Against All Odds" (6 part series) is showing in the autumn. We are in autumn now, but I cannot find anything more specific with regards to the schedule and really don't want to miss this. Does anybody know the details? I've done the google searches already.

Cheers

MP


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## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

Hi MP - I saw this advertised yesterday, I'm not 100% sure but I think its going to be shown Monday.


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## Minow (Aug 2, 2005)

It's not on this coming Monday on BBC1 or 2, at least it's not in the Radio TImes.
Not much help I know! SOrry!
Mx


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## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

Sorry, I think the program I saw advertised must have been something else.  I've just had a look on the BBC website and it doesn't give a date when it'll be shown yet.  

Does look like its going to be quite good when they do show it though. I suppose we'll just have to keep our eye on the schedules.


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

If only he spent as much time actually working as he does presenting TV shows, I might have been pregnant 3 times over at his ruddy department. But I'm not bitter...honest


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## Betty M (Dec 6, 2005)

There is nothing on the BBC Press office site with a transmission date - the "landmark" as they call it series features strongly in the press pack for the Autumn schedule and there is going to be a BBC Learning campaign running alongside so there will be lots of trailers etc.  I doubt we will be able to miss it.

Prof Winston did used to see patients (only NHS ones mind and then usually only the ones with very complex issues) but he retired from the NHS about 2 years ago - I still think he is one of the few public faces of IF who talks real sense. Not a fan of his moustache mind.... 

Bettyx


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## dianne (Apr 5, 2005)

Re The documentary 
i am pretty certain it is the one my clinic Lister 
was involved with i remember reading Oct was the airing month so hopefully will be soon 
Dianne


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## mp (Jul 12, 2005)

The Radio Times website shows up to 14 days ahead, but no sign yet. But surely a lot of adverts and mentions will come up shortly before it transmits. Fingers crossed it's of use to those affected and helps those unaffected to understand things a bit better. Most popular media stuff on IVF can be quite negative with regards to content,

Cheers

MP


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## teenasparkle (Jun 5, 2006)

according to my husband who does work for the Radio Times its due to start mid next month the week starting 18th November.

Txx


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## mp (Jul 12, 2005)

Thanks teenasparkle for the insider info  

MP


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## wildcat (Jun 1, 2006)

There is another show on Discovery home and health on Friday at 7.30pm called test tube babies. I think I've seen this before and it was quite good.


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## mp (Jul 12, 2005)

One of those shows on Discovery Home was about Bourn hall where we are. It was very strange to see at first, but gave some family members a chance to see what happens and how difficult the whole thing can really be.

MP


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## candle76 (Nov 2, 2005)

Hi,
we've just started our first ivf and i would like to find a dvd , programme or something to show dh. So we could both look at other people experiences any ideas?

candle


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## ophelia (Sep 27, 2005)

Hi Candle76

Test tube babies is shown on discovery h&h (channel 264) tonight. It's usually shown every weekday at 4 pm and 7.30 pm.
It shows couples undergoing treatment and couples that has had the treatment and are waiting to give birth. It's really good.

Love/Ophelia


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## aweeze (Nov 8, 2005)

Just to say that I noticed that the book to accompany this series is released on 6th November so I'm guessing that the programme ould be screened around that time.

Lou
X


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## Victoria (Feb 12, 2003)

Hi Girls,

I just wanted to say that I have seen this programme is due to air on the 14th November at 9pm on BBC one. Should be very interesting

xx


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## Mrs_H (Jan 29, 2006)

Just want to thank you MP for bring this to my attention i am sure others are greatful too ~ & victoria thats for confirming the date & time !! 

i bet we will all be   watching it very close to home !! 

Sara xxx


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## daisyboo (Apr 5, 2005)

Thanks for that ladies have to sit my entire family in front of the TV then they might understand a little more 
Than the usual it only takes 1 sperm,
All you need is to relax RELAX WHATS THAT
you just need a nice holiday,
Lose abit of weight ( WHY HOW WILL ME LOSING WEIGHT HELP DH'S SWIMMERS)
Sorry just alittle rant


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## Becki (Aug 1, 2006)

Cant wait for this to show! 

Daisyboo... you have me in stitches with your slight sarcasim!!! 


Love Becki


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## mp (Jul 12, 2005)

Hi,

The synopsis for the first episode is as follows:

Choosing Children
_
Documentary series in which Professor Robert Winston takes a journey through the world of fertility treatment. He starts with the most advanced form of IVF - genetic selection, which offers hope to families with inherited disease. Jill and Ian carry a genetic disease that killed their daughter. Now IVF could help them have a child that will live. Andrea and Glenn have four healthy boys but want a girl. They go to Cyprus for the treatment that's banned in the UK, designed to give them a daughter. _

For the bookworms amongst you, the book for this series is available now on Amazon.

Cheers

MP


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## Minow (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks for the info

Just one thing though - having read the synopsis - anyone else feeling a bit worried about it? I'm not sure friends and family watching those two cases are really going to understand the....we are both normal and just want a baby thing that we are going through! If dh sperm is fine and I'm fine and the only thing they think they can find is that maybe we have a bonding problem (dh and I incompatible - never!   ) Then highliting the "designer" babies won't really help us much will it. People have major problems with that concept (I'm not saying I do) and that really influences how they feel about IVF in general, which really affects those of us that just need a helping hand to produce anything. Great idea BBC, lets start with the "scare" stories about designer babies and see how that helps! I'm sure in later programmes they will look at other cases but why do they have to start with this one?

Oh dear, lack of sleep and stressful time at the moment and I appear to have got the old soap box out........sorry!

Minow x


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## Betty M (Dec 6, 2005)

The series is on Tuesdays at 9pm on BBC1 starting on 14 November for 6 weeks. The BBC website is running a big feature alongside - see http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/ with lots of articles, links etc if you are interested. The 6 programmes will feature PGD, cancer patients freeezing eggs and embryos, sperm retrieval surgery, cheating the biological clock, egg sharing and foreign egg donation, and repeated IVF.

Betty x

_This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.UK or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites_


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Thanks Betty and MP. Will set the sky box up now in case I forget!!


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## TJSK (Dec 2, 2004)

im away to tune it into sky+ as im not missing it!!

thanks.

tracey xx


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## vinandshaun (Oct 31, 2006)

it would appear the bbc are doing a run of programmes on child against all odds and tieing the subject in to the mainstream dramas etc. this weeks holby city features a storyline about ivf. i agree that it is a shame the bbc did not choose just a regular ivf cycle which 90% of cycles are, designer babies are very much a minority, typicall though the mainstream is not usually seen as interesting - try telling us that, it is all i seem to talk about and my friends all appear to be very interested and had no idea what was involved and keep asking loads of questions which is good as it gives me a chance to talk and think it all thorough. none the less i will be on the sofa with a mug of chocolate.
love and hugs
vin


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi Ladies,

I just thought some of you may like to know there is a programme on BBC 1 at 9pm tonight all about IVF/fertility probs etc with Prof Robert Winston. Looks v interesting. It's on for the next 6 weeks.

He was on This Morning today - what an amazing chap!  I have lots of his books.

Jo x


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi Jo

There's already a post discussing this...

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=69696.0

Thanks for letting us know though 

I saw him on This Morning...shame it wasn't longer...although must say did question some of what he said...ie he replied to a woman that she couldn't improve the quality of her eggs...but I've always read that there are things that can be taken/eaten/drunk to improve quality eg zinc, protein etc which is what I was also told during ivf.....but overall interesting....

Take care
Natasha


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## lizzylou (Aug 29, 2006)

So then girls, what did we think

I am looking forward to next week as am hopefully going to start FET cycle soon

Lizzylou
xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## mazv (Jul 31, 2006)

I thought it was interesting, looked at the issue of genetic selection from a couple of different viewpoints. Thought it was very non-judgemental and just followed the 3 storylines. Robert Winston was very straightforward in his views.

The comments from all 3 couples regarding the emotional struggle that is IVF was the one thing that stood out for me, but then probably as that's the part I related to the most. Nearly lost it though when Sally broke down at the end with her BFN. That brought everything flooding back  

The one thing I will not be doing is reading the posts on the BBC poll! Made the mistake of doing that before once and nearly put the 'pooter out the window    

Interested to hear the views from the board.

Maz x


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## Loulou75 (Aug 12, 2006)

It's funny you should say that, Maz, as that's exactly what I was thinking when they mentioned the poll! Bit of self-protection  

Lou x


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## wildcat (Jun 1, 2006)

hmmm,  where do I start - I hope this doesn't turn into a rant!

I thought the show was good, it showed different things although it didn't clearly get across what couples go through during the ivf process. I was so annoyed with the couple who wanted a girl    they have no idea what it's like to face the prospect of not having a child at all and here they are trying to have a girl to make their family 'complete' - it made me so mad as so many couples go through this and may never have a child at all    I must admit to having no sympathy for them at all

I did think that PGD is good for the other couples though, and I was rooting for them both, if you know you have a genetic disorder, to be able to select an embryo that won't have that, has to be a good thing. I know a couple who had a baby with a very rare genetic disorder called i-cell. Emmy didn't make it to her 7th birthday and she was the size of a 8 month old baby at this age, she never walked, couldn't talk and while she had a happy life in herself, it was sad to see her struggle with so much. She died last year. Her parents both carry the i-cell gene so for them- this would literally be a lifesaver.  

I'm looking forward to next week's show.

Also I agree with Maz - don't read the discussion board - there are too many people on there saying  - I don't know why you bother with IVF - I wanted to reach out and slap them!


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## KTx (Mar 23, 2006)

I totally agree with wildcat for that couple to have 4 boys and then to say they need a girl to be complete I could deck the B***** how does that make her boys feel that they are not good enough and when her hairdresser collegue said what if you do have a girl and she is a tom boy rather than a girlie girl and she said there would be trouble AHHHHHHH I could scream.

I must admit i am glad my clinic do ec under a general as I dont think I would like to be under a local, the rest of the program I think was well done and very sad and I cant wait until next week


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## Reb (Mar 27, 2004)

I was surprised to see Robert Winston supporting sex selection.  The couple in the program were truly blessed with their four boys.  How could they feel something was missing ?  

I was fiiling up for the couple at the end.  Like you said Maz, it really did bring it back to me making that call.

For the record, I am all for PGD to detect abnormalities and to help siblings, not for sex selection though.  The desire to have a particular sex of child is not as a result of a condition.

It was very interesting and I look forward to next weeks about FET as we hope to have our first go at this next year.

Becca
x


Becca
x


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## Mrs_H (Jan 29, 2006)

Reb said:


> .
> 
> I am all for PGD to detect abnormalities and to help siblings, not for sex selection though. The desire to have a particular sex of child is not as a result of a condition.


Ditto Becca ~ !


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## KTx (Mar 23, 2006)

Ditto Becca !!!!!!


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## KTx (Mar 23, 2006)

I think the one good thing about the sex selection couple was when she said that it wasnt just like getting a negative pregancy test it was more than that it was there little girl I think it it the one thing that people who dont understand IVF Dont realise what we go through


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## AlmaMay (Oct 15, 2004)

I think we need to be careful.  We need to remember lots of people don't think any of us should have ANY IF treatment.  The woman who went to Cyprus wasn't hurting anybody by having treatment and I think she was quite brave to go on TV to tell her story.  It's all part of the debate.


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## Julie-Anne (Mar 2, 2006)

I agree with Wildcat & KTx and and looking forward to the rest of the series. I really felt so upset when Sally got a BFN

Julie xx


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

Obviously nothing to say about the couple with four boys!! A disgrace frankly

I thought it was good that the programme was relatively balanced in that some one got bad news. All too often with these programmes everyone comes out the other side with a healthy baby and as we know that isn't always the case. I agree with Wildcat that in order to get a truer sense of what actually happens with IVF, they should have shown more about the actual proceedure. For example they only mentioned the fact that the couple with Masie had done this before. They should have ssaid how many times and what the outcomes were each time to get a bit more perspective on their situation. However, they only have one hour I suppose and need to cover a many issues as possible.


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## Betty M (Dec 6, 2005)

The last programme in the series (there are 6) is going to deal with repeated failed attempts and the emotional cost so hopefully they will get some of the reality of the process into that one. 
Betty


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## candle76 (Nov 2, 2005)

hi,
i watched and found it stirred some emotional memories of last week's et and ec. But i also thought it was very sensationalised it didn'tshow how hard ivf is physically and emotionally.it was .........this lady's having her Ec and talking happily all the way through it and then walking off into the sunset or woods in this case minutes later.

Love Candle


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## Charlies-Mum (May 25, 2005)

Candle

There is a discussion on the program ongoing at http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=73242.0

You might want to join in there 

Deb


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## Tinx (Sep 2, 2005)

I agree Candle, the trauma of it all was not shown or even vaguely conveyed at all really. It was all very sensationalised and glamourised really. I found it disappointing. As for the selfish family who only wanted to have a girl, well, I could not believe my eyes and ears. Luckily I had recorded it, as having had ec and et 2 weeks ago, and only recently been tear and pain free, I was not sure if I was strong enough to watch it! The recording meant I could attempt to watch it then forward bits or watch it another time if I found it too painful. I did watch it but I skipped the damn Sh***y family!!

I will be interested to watch it again but so far am not impressed.


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

I have to say that if anyone knows what he is talking about it's Prof Winston though.

Yeah, would be better if it was longer. x


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## babs68 (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi everyone

Just finished watching it on video - I also have mixed feelings about it.  Although it's great that the subject has been aired on BBC at peak time, I think that more could have made about the technical process and the emotional and physical strain it puts on people.  I agree that if you didn't know much about IVF, you'd think, after watching this, that the process is quick, relatively painless, and doesn't bring with it much disruption of your life.  I also think that the couples, particularly the ones undergoing genetic screening for hereditary diseases, probably weren't done justice in the programme.  Too much emphasis on melodramatic music, walks through the woods, rather than more time spent on their experiences (let's not talk about the few minutes spent listening to people in the beauty salon....).

Regarding the couple wanting sex selection, again, mixed feelings.  I too found it difficult to empathise with the couple, but I try not to get too drawn in, as I always feel that there are people judging us, the majority, who want to undergo assisted conception for A BABY.  

Finally!  I watched the trailer for next week's programme about FET.  I thought it looked sensationalised and I really hope that it's a more accurate representation of the average person undergoing this procedure.

Here's hoping.....
Babsx


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi Again,

As someone who nearly went down the IVF route, but luckily i didnt end up having to, I found it interesting and thought it was quite technical for the average person (ie not had IVF) in fact it made me really pleased i never had to go down that route, in fact, im such a wimp i dont think i would have coped at all and would have given up - just the injections at home were enough to put me off!!    I think anyone doing/done IVF is v brave to be honest. Esp as the success rate is not that high on the whole    It seems extremely painful both mentally and pyshcially!!!

I think next weeks maybe more technical as it is about freezing eggs. Should be interesting.  I was surprised Robert Winston condoned sex selection too?! ummmm..... 
Jo


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## sarah30 (Feb 10, 2006)

Hiya

I saw Robert Winston interviewed in the week and he doesn't condone sex selection unless it is relevent to genetic conditions. He just felt that it had to covered on the programme to cover the full spectrum.

Sarahx x


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

Ahh right, he didnt make himself that clear during the programme. Fair enough. xx


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## JoJoSa3 (Sep 23, 2006)

As someone who is about to embark on IVF, I was fascinated by the show.

I think its a good job that this is a series, and there are all sorts of issues covered in the next programmes.  There is also a good website related to the series on the BBC internet site.  

I did watch the programme with an open mind, as someone who has struggled to have children, I felt that it wasn't my job to judge anyone who was undergoing treatment with genetic selection in mind.  I was disappointed that the BBC chose to start the series with the most sensational (and minority) area of fertility treatment, rather than focus on what it is like for the majority of those going through the process.  I think this first programme could have been aired later in the series, to avoid confirming some people's mistaken view that IVF is 'unnatural'.  There was even a part of the programme where the colleague of the lady who wanted a girl said that she thought IVF was interfering with nature.  I was utterly appalled, I think I've been very lucky in that I've not come across that ignorant attitude.
I did struggle not to judge the lady who was doing IVF to select a girl, as I couldn't really understand this when she had 4 lovely boys.

I've asked my family to watch the series, as it is hard for other people to understand just what its like to struggle through treatment from an emotional point of view.  I'm just so glad that a major BBC series is covering this issue so extensively,  I only hope that it helps to improve the wider understanding in this country of the physical and emotional struggle of infertility and removes the unfortunate belief that some people have that IVF is "interfering with nature" - now that is one thing that makes me mad as hell - all medicine is 'interfering' with nature!


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## TJSK (Dec 2, 2004)

i too watched the ivf programme and what can i say !!!! not impressed with the (wanting a girl couple) she should try being in some of our shoes for a day and see if she would maybe appreciate her 4 boys that little bit more? she really annoyed me when she said "i want a girl so i can have the bond with her" so what does that say about her boys then , i hate to think how that will amke them all feel?

felt so sorry for the other too couples it was so sad, couldnt help but cry...never fails regarding ivf!!
i too feel that maybe they could show the other side to ivf...behing the scenes if you like! show people what it really is like for us all! i look forward to watching this weeks.

tracey xx


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

Sarah- how interesting that Robert winston said that on telly this week. Interestingly on Radio 4 Womans hour last week he said there was nothing wrong with sex selection purely to balance your family. io have heard him say before that gender selection for non medical reasons is not a problem for him at all. hhhhmmmm. Maybe he is undecided. I don't know whether you can still listen to that interview on the bbc radio 4 website. I think they keep it on there for a week. I can't remember what day it was on though, sorry.


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

can't wait for the next one
L x


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## sallyanne1 (Oct 23, 2006)

My dh didnt see it last week and as we are going for ivf and no nothing about i wish he had im just hoping tonite its as informative coz im glueing his bum to the sofa till its finished   does anyone know what its about this week?? Isnt there one about male infertility? i want him to see that one.

Luv sally x x


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## cheesyb (Oct 31, 2005)

Hiya

the one tonight is about FET Frozen Embroyo transfer  

love
cheesyb
xx


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## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm looking forward to this tonight, its bound to start another debate too.  

I told me Mum about it last week because I wanted her to watch it so she could get a better understanding of what infertility and the treatment involves and what me and H will go through soon but she can't watch them because they clash with "I'm a Celebrity"


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## JackieMR (Oct 2, 2006)

I have been quite suprised by the strength of feeling about the lady who was trying to have a girl after having 4 boys.  Is it the fact that she is trying to do this through IVF that is the problem or do people object to her having a preference for a girl or boy?  What would you think it if was much easier to choose?  Lots of people I know have tried the "old wives tales" such as eating meat when trying for a boy or dairy products when trying for a girl.  Let's say scientists discovered that if you ate nothing but dairy products for a month you would definitely have a girl if you concieved.  Would you condemn someone for choosing to have a girl in this situation?  Or lets say that they discovered a way of identifying which embryos were boys and which were girls by adding a dye which turned girl embyros pink and boy embryo's blue!  If they were all the same quality, would you be tempted to put particular ones back in or would you be happy to pick completely at random?  What about if you already had a boy - might you be a little bit tempted to try the pink ones!  I must admit to feeling very uncomfortable with the "she should be happy with what she has argument" as taken to an extreme this could mean that no one should have IVF.  I think most of us have had dreams about what our family will be - I always hoped to have a daughter and have been extremely lucky to have two.  They are both very different but I am very close to them both.  I would never condemn a woman for wanting the same.  Similarly, my dh would love to have a son and I don't think there is anything wrong with that (he has his dreams aswell).  We can't all have everything we wish for but I'm not sure that it is always wrong to try.
Jackie


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## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think it was just because she seemed so ungrateful about the fact that she already has four children whilst some of us would be happy just to have one, especially if we could do it naturally. I initially felt quite angry about it too though now I can look at it more rationally and realise that yes she was just following her dream to have a girl.  

I worried about how her boys would feel when they watched the program, though, it almost felt as if she didn't want them because they were male.

Personally, I was really looking forward to the program too last week and felt quite let down that it wasn't just about a "normal" IVF cycle as that is what most of us have that that is what the "general public" don't understand.


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

I think people felt they were acting very ungrateful at having 4 healthy boys already and acting like spoilt brats cos they didnt have a girl. they need to get real! Look at all the ladies here and in the world who would just be so pleased to have a child whatever the sex, and hopefully for it to be healthy.

I totally disagree with IVF for sex selection. I am pg and would love a girl, but if i have a boy, then so be it - i will love him the same. It a different kettle of fish eating certain products that may help you have a girl etc.. than actully throwing away down the drain a potential baby!!!  and not even batting an eyelid about it!!


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## KTx (Mar 23, 2006)

well said jocole


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## saskia b (Aug 3, 2006)

Just to add my thoughts to the debate....

I think the problem with this "lady who wants a girl" issue is that we are all looking at it from an infertility perspective. I had great expectations that these programmes would highlight ALL aspects of infertility and treatment, and the opening show was NOTHING about infertility. So in some ways I think it was wrong of the programme makers to put her on the first show along with the other parents who were in a completely different situation.

If gender selection was available in this country there would be plenty of people picking and choosing their offspring. Its not necessarily wrong but I don't agree with it myself, something just makes me think it is wrong to discard a life because it is not quite what we want....but then there are many spare embryo's destroyed or frozen indefinitely.....and very few people would condider this wrong....

No easy answers but has caused a stir....look forward to tonights episode and the next ensuing debate!

Saskia xx


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## sallyanne1 (Oct 23, 2006)

To me it reminds me of hitlers perfect race.  If i was able to have a boy and pass on my female eggs to someone who needed them i think i would. But to be honest i would be happy with any sex. Its my son who wants a brother i dont care. Its a gift from god no matter the sex.

Sally xx


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## Charlies-Mum (May 25, 2005)

Saskia

I hate to disagree with you but this show was about infertility - just one small aspect of it. If you take infertility in its true sense it is the "ability to concieve and carry to term a *healthy* baby".

I was classed as fertile when i was carrying Charlie (he was concieve naturally) however he would not have survived to term. Does that still mean I am fertile - I still ended up childless?

If I could have confirmed that any future baby was healthy before having to make the heartbreaking decision that we made, I would have jumped on that bandwagon. Unfortunately we don't know what caused his condition so just had to take a leap of faith....
Anyway I just wanted set the record straight. 

Deb


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## saskia b (Aug 3, 2006)

Hi Charlies-Mum!

I'm sorry if I offended you and I'm glad you have put me straight. I think we have our own view or experience of what infertility means and I guess mine was short sighted in a way. I have had an extremely lucky journey (so far) and for that I am very grateful. But my initial view of the couples on this programme did not lead me to think they were also "infertile", I did not think of it in terms of carrying a healthy baby, but I can see how that comes across so I am sorry. 

As for the lady who wanted a girl....that was not about infertility.

Anyway, thanks for the reply

saskia xx


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## Charlies-Mum (May 25, 2005)

I'm not offended hun  I know how easy it is to get 'blinkered' - I do it myself all the time 

And yes I agree, choosing the sex of a child for 'family balancing' is not classed as infertility.

Deb


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## Mrs_H (Jan 29, 2006)

Bump for tonights show

Ice Babies 

not sure they showed other sides of FET ~ they covered 3 people who sadly had cancer but no one with OHSS or just freezing extras they had,

Saraxx


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

Yes I agree with you there Mrs H. Also i don't know whether you noticed the comment from Winston when they were thawing out that couples embryos, he said "this is the first step in a potential pregnancy". i thought no it bloody isn't. Before they would have had to d/r (in their case they probably wouldn't as she no longer had ovaries) and patches or pills to build up the lining. I'm still waiting for a realistic view of the WHOLE process of an  IVF cycle.

thankfully the woman who thankfully got a baby at the end was the voice of reason when she said, "we got what we wanted". Obviously the'r happiness was tainted with grief but in contrast to last weeks show, I was delighted to see someone accepting their blessing. the woman who had cancer, DOES already have a healthy child and the woman last week with a football team of boys already have children. they don't therefore, know exactly how it feels to be faced with the very real prospect of childlessness. So I was pleased to see someone with a bit of humility, bless her. 

I have to say as well, that "Howard" should be ashamed of himself. I don't think I could ever be so cruel to someone who has no chance of ever conceiving now. she has a new partner, if he was that bothered he could let the new partner adopt any child that came from those frozen embryos and relinquish any responsibilities. Cruel man, I hope he can live with himself


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## sallyanne1 (Oct 23, 2006)

Im waiting for a more realistic view on ifv. Like the drugs, self injecting, side effects. I was trying to explain to dh that when we go for ivf it will be simular but they miss so much out. It was good though and i did enjoy watching it

Luv sally x x


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## cleo31 (Sep 24, 2006)

I am enjoying this series so much and think it focuses on all different aspects of fertility treatment, in situations i had never even thought about.

I was in tears last night and so wanted the couple, with the lady who had had cancer, to get pregnant. I felt for them all the way through, from the eggs surviving the thaw, to the cells multiplying and then getting a BFP!!!   . Then when they said she was having twins i really started to believe that miracles do happen!  . It was absolutely heart wrenching when one of the twins died.

It amazes me how strong people can be, what they can go through and still be positive. i would love to hear in the future how the other couple got on.

I find it difficult to deal with the tx i have and i know that my journey has only just begun.  i don't know if i would have half the courage that those people had and be able to deal with cancer and infertility. 

Cleo xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

Hi,

I was so pleased the lady who had cancer and had the twins managed to have her dream of a baby eventually. It was upsetting loosing her little girl, but she was so grateful.

Wasnt too sure about the other lady who delayed her cancer treatment to freeze her eggs as if it spread and she had died her little girl would not have a mother, also if she has IVF in the future she risks her cancer being triggered again - is it worth that? esp with a child already and hubby? mmm not sure   

I'm sorry but i had to agree with Howard, if i was a man in his position i wouldnt want her to have my children either. I did really feel for her though. but, i agree with the courts. Sorry.

The hurdles you have to go thru with FET is awful, what an emotional rollercoaster! gosh!!!!!  

J x


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## JoJoSa3 (Sep 23, 2006)

Just to add my 2 penn'orth in again,

In response to the posts about the gender selection lady who wanted a girl, the reason she upset me was that they were so ready to 'destroy' any embryos which were not girls.  They didn't even think about donation, and the fact that they had embarked on IVF, knew what it was like, and didn't even consider helping another couple going through the pain of being childless when they weren't, was in my view breathtakingly selfish.

I was fascinated by the "frozen babies" programme.  I think this series is tackling some of the myths surrounding fertility treatment and the ignorance of the vast majority of people (even some if us, on certain issues!).  As I've said before, I think that they could have started the series with something more focused on what its like for the majority of those going through IVF, but at least they are raising awareness, and showing the human side of the emotional journey people go through, whatever their reason to undergo fertility treatment.

I bawled my eyes out when the lady who'd had a brain tumour was told she was pregnant and continued to bawl for the rest of the programme.  It was a little bit of my pain wrapped up in totally willing their story to be a success.  My heart went out to the lady with breast cancer, I felt for her because, yes she already had a child, but because she so wanted to have more children and this illness was robbing her of that chance, I thought she was so brave.  Yes, there were future risks if she embarked on treatment, but aren't we all taking some risks in administering the drugs we do during our treatment?

As for 'Howard', she wasn't asking him to become a Dad.  Her new partner was going to adopt the children so he didn't have to worry about parental responsibility, and he really should examine his motives in denying someone he had once cared about this chance to be a mother.  I thought it was unbelievably cruel of him.


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

I feel terribly sorry for Howard's ex partner. I would have thought that his earlier committment to creating an embryo should translate to having a child with her. It's all the more heartbreaking as that was her only chance to have biological children.  What an uncompassionate man. I hope for his sake that it wasn't his only chance as well!

The FET side of the programme was a revelation to me!  Science can be so wonderful


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

i feel sorry for Howard  

when you sign the papers for FET you have to state legally what you want done with the embryos in the case of death or mental incapacitation. you also have to sign together to defrost the embryos and agree on what you want done with them. it's a legal measure that is there for a very good reason.....

why should howard have to watch his ex and her partner bring up his biological child? why should the woman have more of a say than the man? the embryos were created together and all decisions for them made together - now that is not possible how do you decide who gets the embryos? 

i think it is very sad for all involved (most importantly for the embryos which will now be destroyed) but agree with the law that a man or a woman cannot be forced into becoming a (potential) parent because that is the wish of the ex. 

Of course this case is sad because natalie can never produce another embryo - i wonder if they thought of this when they were having tx and wonder why she did not use donor sperm as she was offered.....i know they probably never dreamed this would happen but even a pre-nup agreement could have saved all this heartache for them both. 

it's very sad for all involved but i think howard has a right to not have a child with his ex


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## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

I agree Howard should have as much right to chose what happens to the embrios as Natalie BUT you would think that he would be compassionate enough to want the person he had once loved and planned to have a child with to take her last chance at having a biological child especially after eveything she's gone through.  

Afterall Howard wouldn't have to have anything to do with the child if he didn't want to as Natalie's new partner would take on all the responsibility.  They could treat this like sperm donation.  

Its difficult for me to be objective about this but I honestly don't know how he can be so hard.


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## TJSK (Dec 2, 2004)

i thought the programme was ok but not great. i was so happy that the couple managed to have twins and was so happy for them, but sadly there daughter died but as they said at the end " they only got what they asked for" i was so happy to see them all go home together.

i was not much impressed with the breast cancer woman she annoyed me with her comment " we will just have to live with the one child" that just got to me!! as far as im concerned she shpuld just be grateful for the daughter she has!

i did feel sorry for the last girl but i feel that howard is and has been cruel to her but i agree with him when he says why should he have to give up his rights to the child because its what she wanted to do?

hope i dont sound heartless because im not but i just feel no one shpuld be forced into doing anything they dont want to do!


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

i agree (probably for the first time) with Robert Winston on this, had the same conception taken place in utero rather than in vitro, she would have been left with his child to bring up, therefore  I see little difference here.

the moral problem as I see it , is that he can go on from that relationship basically unchanged. He can go and have as many children as he wants potentially with as many partners as he wants. she has been left robbed. Had he had the spine to say he may have had doubts, she would have been forearmed with more facts. she would have had more options. such as freezing eggs (although not as successful) or creating embros with a donor.

He was well aware of the situation and the consequences and should not be allowed to rob this woman of a chance, and that is all it is, a chance. We all know that there is no guarantee that she would even have succeeded ina pregnancy.

As i said before, lets hope he never has to face this crippling pain that it is to face a life of childlessness


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

i have to disagree with sho28
i don't believe that howard can walk away 'basically unchanged'. this whole IF stuff has completely turned my life and that of my dh upside down - and the creation of our 8 embryos has changed our lives in ways we would never have guessed. from our 8 embryos we sadly do not have a healthy baby - but we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that our lives have changed forever.....we cannot go back now emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, physically - it has all left it's mark on us. 

i know as a woman i would talk my dh into most things - indeed i 'talked' him into this IVF attempt - we do not know all the details of whether natalie talked howard into it or vice versa, whether he had the 'spine' to speak his doubts out loud - so how can we judge the truth?  she too should have been well aware that either of them could pull out at any point  

it's very difficult situation but i'm not convinced that howard should have this bad stuff said of him.


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Can I just say that nobody is judging the truth here - just merely expressing their opinions which we are all entitled to and which is what these boards are for


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

quote from previous page:

'Had he had the spine to say he may have had doubts, she would have been forearmed with more facts. she would have had more options. such as freezing eggs (although not as successful) or creating embros with a donor.
He was well aware  of the situation and the consequences and should not be allowed to rob this woman of a chance, and that is all it is, a chance. We all know that there is no guarantee that she would even have succeeded ina pregnancy'

this sure sounds like judgement to me  we have no idea what was said or what howard was aware of. 
i have no problem with opinions or debate but do have a problem with heresay - sorry


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## jocole69 (Dec 19, 2004)

So well said Ritz    I totally agree.  
Also, we dont know the reasons why they split up. How many people who have had children then split up afterwars wish they probably hadn't ?!    At least he can decide now, it may seem selfish of him to not let her have what she wants, but isnt it selfish of her too if she did something he really did not want   (difficult situation and a pre nup sounds a good idea with hindsight!). Aslo, that child will at some point want to know who its biological Dad is.......

Regarding having fert.treatment which can cause cancer etc as well, the lady who had breast cancer was taking a huge health risk and she did already have a little girl. Maybe she should have focused on her ? not sure  

J x


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

she hulk, you are right we are all intitled to our own opinions, and that is why the series is on. If you heard Winston taling about it on Womans hour, you ar eencouraged to leave your opinions on the BBC web site as well as discuss it with eachother like this, so I don't take offence at anything.

Maybe I didn't put the context of my point across to ritz well enough. When I sid that he comes out of this basically unchanged, I am talking of the physical sense. She has been left due to cancer ovariless and without possibility of conceiving naturally at all. He has been left after this relationship and IVF treatment in exactly the same condition as he was when he met her. Now I'm not saying the cancer was his fault, of course not, but after everything they went throught together, she is the one who is left suffering, not him.

I stand by what I said though. Why should she suffer for his lack of spine IF that is what it was. Lets face it , he's got some spine now because he continues to stand his corner against a great deal of press and emotional pressure.

AS for hearsay, ritz are you suggesting that he did not know the consequences of her cancer and that he did not know what he was signing? Because if he didn't know what he was signing, he wouldn't have known he could pull out would he?

I'm looking forward to the next programme a great deal. It deals with the implications of IVF techniques on men. Primarily our problem is male factor although luckily we have been fortunate enough never to need anything surgical. I'm glad they are showing this programme as all too often we see the surgical proceedures that the women go through and not IVF from the male perspective.

That has just made me think how much more balanced the last programme could have been if Howard had appeared on it.


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Hello Sho

I too stand by what I said about Howard - no compassion whatsoever.  If he didn't want to have a child with Natalie he should have kept his sperm to himself.  She has now been denied her last chance of having a biological child.  If the boot was on the other foot I wonder what his stance would be? 

I wonder what next Tuesday's installment will be about - I'm really looking forward to it.


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

It's the effect of IVF on men/male fertility. I think its looking at ICSI and sperm retreval via surgery, say after a vasectomy  or again, cancer or things like that. I think it may make your mans eyes water 

s she said, if the shoe was on the other foot, she SAYS she would share the embryos with him. She said she would not carry them for him, he would have had to find a surrogate. Obviously she says that now and we don't know what she would have said in reality, but we have to take her word for it don't we.


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Science is just wonderful. Thank goodness we live in these advanced times!
Will have to remember to Sky+ it as we'll both be out.


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

Indeed. I don't know what the other programmes are about, but i have been told on another thread that the last one deals with the disappointments and hardships of treatment. For those (like me) that feel the series hasn't been totally true with its representation of the hardships, then hopefully the last episode will go some way to satisfying. You can look at alot of info about the series on the BBC website under health I think. You can vote on issues on there and everything

Here's the link. The page has changes though, I can't see the polls anymore

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/fertility/achildagainstallodds_index.shtml


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Cheers Sho - will have a butchers at the link
Best of luck with your lap
*xx*


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

thanks mate. i need it!! Its a while off yet though so I'll be able to enjoy Christmas before it gets all stressful again


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

Boo hooo
Am mad as hell - forgot to record it.
Does anyone know if it's repeated?

Thanks in advance.


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## vinandshaun (Oct 31, 2006)

sorry dont know if repeated, but it was fantastic. i did not expect it to be of as much interest to us as we are not undergoing ICSI, but i think the fact it homed in on the dh touched a cord with me.

i cried buckets, especially when the blonde woman with the two girls phoned her dh to say it was BFN and her little girl was in the car and she started to cry and hugged her mummy - it was so moving. perhaps as i get closer to EC and ET i am starting to realise what all this means. i have been trying to keep a lid on it, but now and am a bit torn. i believe in visualisation but dare not let myslef hope for too much, but in the same breath if i dont hope what chance do i have. this programme is helping me realise the amazing journey we are all taking and the incredible science behind it. at the moment i am taking each step at a time and just hoping we have a succeful ec and et, only then can we take the next step. 

love and hugs to you all


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## CarrieW (Apr 3, 2006)

Apparently it is repeated sometime on Thursday, I think on BBC Three, but don't quote me on it.  Best to check first.

I'm glued to it, so is my dh, although I wish they would show the devastation and anguish with all the red tape, people go though in more depth, as I feel it may make a difference to those toffs at the HFEA and the like and maybe they'd see infertility in a different light and change rules, where they're very antiquated.

Best of luck to everyone having/going to have treatment
carriew


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi,
Hope you don't mind me joining in! It was a great programme last night except for the part of IVF with the lowest success rate (ie. using testicular sperm), they failed to reveal any repeatedly negative cycles. I was pleased it worked for the 2 couples, but they did fail to show the anguish of others. Also I was delighted that last night they showed the woman conceived by IVF and her 2 children. This brought a happy tear to my eye. I know how lucky I am, but I do worry about my younger son as he was an ICSI baby.
Good luck evenryone!
Prija


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## maybe (Feb 10, 2006)

Hi All,

I have a quick question,  at the end of the programme Robert Winston said that;  sadly 2 thirds fail.  Doesn't that mean that 1 in 3 succeeds?, have I misunderstood that?.


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Maybe,
I suppose it does indeed mean that. As was said last night by the lady with the adult daughter conceived through IVF who was given a 4% chance of success, a 1% chance of success is worth the risk to people who would otherwise have a 0% chance!
Good luck!
Prija


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

Maybe- yes me and my husband questioned that. I know that at statistically across the nation success rates for ICSI are 33% so i wonder if that was what he was alluding to. That 66% or two thirds fail. but he did say fail at this stage, so did he mean two thirs don't even make it to embryo transfer? who knows.

Prija, I would like to see some realism as well. It seems they use the couples with extraordinary cases and extraordinary luck. for a lot of people tht have ICSI like myself its because of a low sperm count or poor quality. Not everyone who has ICSI has it because they need TESA etc. In the same way, last week they used couples for FET who had cancer and things, but most people have FET because their previous cycle yeilded a lot of embryos. 

i wonder whether they have used couples for viewing purposes. for people who have no experience of IVF I wonder if they tune in weak after weak to watch no body getting a positive result. Probably not, and so they put on people who seem to get posistive against all the odds, when we know that the chances of someone who gets 2 sperm only are unlikely to get a good result first time. i don't know, maybe I'm a cynic.


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## Naditude (Sep 16, 2006)

For those people wanting a repeat - a long shot but if you have ntl, you can watch it on 'on demand' for free. Hope this may help!!  

Naditude. x


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## vinandshaun (Oct 31, 2006)

cynic or not i think you are right. it makes good tv. i know from my days in the media the bbc would have invested a lot of time and research with numerous couples and then chosen the ones which make the best tv.like you say those who know little about IVF would probably not tune in for the heartache, they have eastenders for that!!!!!! i have been surprised by how little my friends know about ivf, although they have all been very interested since we started. i am rather worried though that ivf will become 'trendy' the next must have - there has been a lot of media coverage but like with this series a lot focused on the outcome and not the process and also all the talk of ivf allowing women to freeze embryos and delay motherhood.  i agree taliking and exposure is good for fighting the cause but for us it is soooo much more than that and i just hope it is kept in perspective.

i will get off my soap box now.

love and hugs


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

The programme is repeated at 1:55am tonight/tomorrow morning - Yaaaay!


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## sho28 (Jan 10, 2006)

vin- well at least I don't feel so bad for being such a cynic  It makes sense though doesn't it. you couldn't pin all your hopes on 2 or 3 couples per preogramme just in case non of them got positives, so they must have had reserves. I bet they were following something like 30-40 couples and have just picked the best 16-18. Ironically, much like the IVF process itself 

I see what you're sayng about ti becoming trendy. Maybe a bit like the too posh to push phase that women went through in the late nineties. Of course this whole series is actually BBC wide. You're getting it on the radio on womans hour and on the Archers, on Eastenders and gloria hunniford on a sunday and obviously this programme, and don't forget Robert's new book! At least you know where your license fee is going.....god I'm skeptical


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## she-hulk (Sep 21, 2006)

IVF on Eastenders?  Which couple?


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