# Do any other over 40s get these symptoms every month?



## Ann_P (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi all,

I was just wondering if anyone has the same symptoms as me every (or most) months.

Since trying to conceive I often (usually) get very sore boobs in the week before AF. They are most sore in the morning when I first get up. It's as if they have 'set' in a lying down position overnight and when I stand up they really hurt, a bit like a burning pain. However a day or two before AF starts the boob-ache goes away and tummy cramps start so I know AF will show up any day.

Whats strange is, that I don't remember getting these pains before ttc. I do rember having them when I was pregnant (but couldn't go ahead) at age 20 (seems like another life ago!). But I certainly didn't get them during a normal cycle.

After all the tests I and my partner have had, they have found no reason for our infertility other than my age, (partner has a slightly reduced sperm count). I have had one miscarriage and several chemical pregnancies.

Yesterday after a few days of aching boobs, and being 4 days before AF due I experimented and did a test to see if I'm conceiving and then not managing to hold on to the embryo. I can see a very very faint line on the test, it's as wide as the control line, but incredibly faint. This is what I've had before with the chemical preganancies (where AF then showed up a few days later).

Today, however, my boobs are no longer aching, and I've just had a mild cramping feeling in abdomen, so I'm sure I will come on as normal. I will test again tomorrow just to see if the line is still there.

It seems to me sperm and egg are meeting but not staying. I'd hate to think I'm getting so close but not doing everything I could to acheive success.

Are there any drugs/hormones I could be taking to help with this? Or is it just that my eggs are too old and not viable? 

Does this happen to anyone else?


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

hi Ann, yes I vaguely know what you are descirbing. 

I also suspect everyone is different and everyone knows her body's own sensitivities  - however, FOR ME, it's a question of that "less-pain-day" being the day the corpus luteum collapses and progesterone levels drop off. ie whether fert or not, nothing is proceeding to implant or continue the production of progesterone and hcg. 

Re the lines on the hcg sticks, have a look at one of the test stick websites - they have numerous pictures and some of what i thought were chemicals were unfortunately just shadow lines. 

Sorry not to be more positive, do you know that the s/e are definitely meeting and fertilsiing? i was advised to do a cycle to see if the eggs got fertilised for diagnostic purpose really. Answer yes 100% so that didn't provide a solution really. have you had an HSG to check tubes? 

All the best, 

Anna


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## ali bongo (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Ann

I just like to say don't give up.  You know your own body and I remember after suffering a m/c that I felt pregnant again.  Unfortunately I wasn't and I thought I was cracking up, but I believe the symtoms I was suffering from was all connected to my fertility problem.

Initally we had a consultant with the NHS who was useless and we left having been told that it was unexplained infertility and our only hope was to have IVF because of my age (I think I was about 40/41 then).  I knew that if I was going down the IVF route it still wouldn't work until I got to the bottom of our problems, so we sought a second opinion.

We ended up going to the Lister clinic and we had 2 cycles of IVF.  Although it didn't work it was established that it looked like it was an immune issue that was causing the problems.

We were at a crossroads what to do, but I sought another opinion with ARGC.  They confirmed that I had very high anti-thyroid antibodies and my body wouldn't be able to sustain a full-term pregnancy without immune treatment and thyroxine.  The annoying thing is that I originally asked about my thyroid to the NHS consultant, whose reply was it was my age.  Every question I asked her her reply was my age.

You said you've had some tests.  Have you had any immune testing done?  It would be worth posting your question on the Immunology and Investigations FF webpage as there's a lot of girls that are very knowledgeable in this area.

I would advise you to follow your gut instinct.  I did so, and I'm currently pregnant, so I'm glad I got the 2nd/3rd opinions.  I did use DE alongside the immune treatment (I'm now 44), but I know it wouldn't have worked until I got to the bottom of the issue and with the right drugs.

Good luck. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact me. 

Ali x


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

Ali, I quite agree. the NHS consultants can be very ill-informed, overly conservative and driven by rules as opposed to clinical symptoms staring them in the face. What were your thyroid levels? My free T4 is 15.6 and my TSH is 0.55, Free t3 is 4.1.  All are within so called UK norms but my worry is that the TSH is low for sustaining a pg. Any thoughts? 

There seems to be very little joined up thinking across disciplines, that's one of the issues. 

good luck for the rest of your pg - exciting times for you!
Anna xx


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## Ann_P (Aug 24, 2007)

Ali, congratulations on your pregnancy, that gives me hope! I have not been tested for immune issues, I assumed this might be because I had a pregnancy & m/c at 8 weeks. Presumably this can't have happened if there were immune issues. However, I would still like to have had the test done, it just wasn't offered by the NHS. I feel as if we are so close. 

I too was dissapointed with the NHS. I feel as if they did the bare minimum and were blinkered by my age. They did not even offer up the results of the test. E.g. they said my FSH level was low, I had to ask for the number (it was 6) and I have not had any figures for the other tests. I was basically told that everything was fine, except for the fibroids (which they didn't consider a barrier to conception), and it was just my age. 

I asked about IVF and was told that as there are no blockages etc. IVF would not create any greater a chance than ttc naturally. 

I really do feel that something more could be done. I am ovulating, my FSH is low, I still have a chance.

Surely if you produce lots of eggs with stimulation for IVF and the best grade ones are fertilised with OH's best sperm, then that gives a better chances of success than waiting every month for a good egg and a good sperm to meet by chance on the right day?

Maybe the NHS just doesn't want to spend the money, so rather than say this they say you have no chance!

So nice to hear your positive story Ali and that it pays to be persistant.

I'd love for you to take your baby back to the NHS consultant and shove him/her under their nose and go ner ner ner ner ner! Because if you'd listened to them you would have faced a childless future.


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## Ann_P (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi Anna the third,

Thanks for your response, very informative. What you describe sound perfectly feasable. I sort of imagined it that way, but didn't realise that hcg was produced before implantaion, so you can get a +ve test but nothing has bedded-in yet?

I will have a look at those web sites, it could be that I have just seen shadow lines. I bought my tests in bulk from the internet and that site does not show or mention shadow lines. Do you have the web address for these by chance?

The only reason I'm assuming s/e are definatelymeeting is because of the test. When you did your cycle to see if the eggs got fertilised (for diagnostic purposes) how was this established? Did you have a scan?

I did have the HSG yes, and tubes not blocked. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this. If my eggs aren't implanting I need to find out why and do something about it.


All the best, 

Anna


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

Ann, no you are qite right - the HCG is produced on implantation. but the progest is produced by corpus luteum and it is that FOR ME that causes less boob pain etc, inclduing also crazy moods as the progest level crashes down again. 

quick msg - immune issues if they are linked to ANYTHING are linked to mcs. 

i did 2 ivfs to establish e and s were meeting adn fertilising and of course that's jsut ina testtube! there's no scan you can have to my knowledge. but it did show us that early embry dev't was fine. (another potential cause) 

i agree - you are ov, there is a chance. have you thought about ttc with injectables eg gonal f, so each month you have eg 6 eggs trying to implant. if they say, blah blah risk of multiples, push ahead privately.


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## ali bongo (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Ann and Anna the Third

Ann - to back up what Anna said re: m/c's not linked to immune issues.  I suffered from 2 m/c's and 2 implantation failures which were caused by immune issues.  I'm now on medication to support this pregancy after the immune issues were highlighted at ARGC. 

Also I agree with Anna that it's probably best to move on to a private clinic if you don't get any further with NHS.  I was always told that to increase my chances it would be best to move to IVF whereas if we tried naturally we were told the chances were 3% whereas IVF increased to 25%.  Also trying IVF highlighted our problems a lot sooner rather than if we'd carried on trying naturally.

On a positive side I know it's absolutely terrible suffering a m/c but Lister and ARGC said it was a good sign that I could get pregnant.  Also your FSH levels are very good.  

My NHS consultant (infertility) now knows I'm pregnant as the consultant I'm with for my pregnancy liaised with her re: medication I'm on to sustain my pregnancy prescribed by the ARGC.  They reported back that she doesn't agree with it, but they will ignore the immune side of things.  It's a very controversial area and there's not many private clinics that offer immune testing.  There's no way that I would take any notice of that NHS consultant says as she was absolutely rubbish with me and other people when I heard of their experiences re: tests - or rather the lack of them and her attitude re: age.  

Trust your instincts and push ahead to a private clinic.  A private clinic should run more thorough tests and quickly so hopefully you'll get to the bottom of problem.


Anna - my TSH level when it was tested at ARGC was 7.9, T4 about 15 and I'm not sure about T3.  My thyroid antibodies were 474 (high)which was attacking my thyroid causing it to become underactive.  Now that I'm on medication my TSH is down to 0.44 which my thyroid consultant is pleased about.  I was also told by my consultant that to sustain a pregnancy this level shouldn't rise any higher than 2.  Are you currently at a clinic?  If so, which?  ARGC tested my thyroid results and thyroid antibodies and tend to be stricter guidelines than the DR's.  Also have you been tested for thyroid antibodies?

Ali x


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## matti (Aug 10, 2007)

Ali

Do u mind if I interrupt this discussion and ask you a question about TSH?  My mind has been niggling about my TSH results for a while now.  I'd never given thyroid/TSH levels etc any thought before I started reading the posts on FF. When I look at my blood results from 4 years ago myTSH level is 1.75, however over the last 2 years or so it has risen to 2.43.  I had a m/c in Dec 07 - I know there could be any number of reasons for this and my incapability to conceive since (despite investigations) but I do wonder if the TSH is contributing, as you said that to sustain a pregnancy it must be below 2. I know 2.43 isn't hugely above this but do u think this could be an issue?  I went to see my GP about this 3 months ago and she treated me like a hypochondriac, telling me my TSH levels are within mid range and I do not have underactive thyroid. We are going to see our private fertility clinic next month, and I'm wondering if my TSH levels are worth mentioning? Would be grateful for your opinion.
Matti


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## ali bongo (Sep 25, 2007)

Hi Matti

Yes I would mention your concerns over the thyroid issue when you next go the fertility clinic.  When I was at Lister and they were looking into my thyroid issue I had 2 blood tests taken 2 days apart (my local hospital had messed the tests up) but I didn't realise that my TSH was flunctuating.  One day it was 2.5 and another it was 4.5.  The reading on 4.5 I felt ill, but when I mentioned it to the consultant at Lister he also said it was within range, but it just seemed to confirm to me that it was something that could be contributing to the pregnancy losses/infertility.  When I went to ARGC they retook it and also tested me for thyroid antibodies, which showed there were problems and hence put me on thyroxine and immune treatment.

Have you been tested for thyroid antibodies?  I would also ask if you can have this test at the private clinic as I've read that you can have a normal thyroid range, but your antibodies could be high which can cause problems.

It's really annoying when dr's/consultants don't take any notice of possible symptoms.  ARGC were the third clinic I attended before the thyroid problem was diagnosed which confirmed it caused problems with m/c's and infertility.

See what your private clinic's attitude is to your thyroid.  Also I understand that America have stricter guidelines re: thyroid readings and ARGC's immune blood tests are shipped to USA.

Good luck.

Ali x


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## matti (Aug 10, 2007)

Ali - thanks for this.  You have given me the info I need to before I approach my clinic about it.
Matti x


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