# GMTV - Controlled Crying can it cause problems later in life?



## Leicesterlou (Oct 9, 2007)

http://www.gm.tv/articles/48106-controlled-crying-for-babies.html

What do you think?


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

thanks for posting this lou - i feel fairly strongly about CC, as it is mad eto sound like mums just leave their babies unattended to wail for hours on end!!  Well firstly i've never left my babies for 'prolonged periods' to cry - but have done 'controlled crying'!!

Babies will often cry for long periods whether they are cuddled or not, so what do we do about that as far as cortisol is concerned? I did discuss this with Charlie's consultant when he was suffering from silent reflux - these babies cry - scream - for hours, whether you are cuddling them or not, and the consultant cited research that showed that cortisol does not go up significantly in babies who cry for long periods when suffering from reflux.

Now i didn't personally check out this research, but having reflux has to be pretty stressful in a baby, but he said that there was no long term affects - and as i say he was quoting research.

CC is horrible when you first start it as it does go against your instincts, but it wasn't like leaving my babies for hours and hours, and then doing the same thing for weeks or months on end.  My babies settled into a routine after using CC for one or two nights, and i never ever left them for longer than 15-20 minutes (and i'm sure there are many of you ladies hwo don't use CC who have had to leave a bubba yelling for 15 minutes as you were in the shower or similar?)  I also find that when they were learning to settle themselves, they actually cried harder when i went in than when they were settling!

I agree that CC isn't for everyone, and i was lucky that my babies responded to it very quickly and got into a routine in a matter of a day or two -i may well have thought differently if it was weeks with no improvement. 

I don't personally believe that i have caused my babies any long term problems using CC (and i don't believe i suffered long term because of it - and in the days of my mum doing it to me, we really just were left to yell, and that could be hours!).  If anything by using it for a short period to establish a routine, we were all happier, slept better and were generally healthier and more cheerful because of it!  

i wish i could do it on my daughter now she is waking up at stupid o clock in the morning and won't go back to bed....  sadly she can get out of bed and into my room herself now!!


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## levin (Jan 9, 2006)

To be honest i think this article is a load of rubbish. I did controlled crying with my 2 at about 6 months old, if controlled crying is done properly it works very quickly - it only took a day for my 2 to be sleeping 12 hours through the night after we implemented cc so i don't really see how that could have any lasting adverse effects at all.
What about those people who are unfortunate enough to have a little one with colic? My friends baby cried and cried for hours on end up until about 12 weeks old - so surely these babies must be producing much more 'toxic' levels of cortisol than someone who has done cc for a few days.
I think what it comes down to is that some people just don't agree with cc and are looking for a way to make out that it is cruel, and make parents who use it feel bad. CC was by far the best option for my 2 as they were getting no sleep because they had problems settling themselves - so a day of cc was the kindest option in my opinion because they learnt to self settle very quickly.


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## *Bev* (Dec 20, 2005)

Utter sh!t!  In my opinion, and to use the word distressed in the same sentence as controlled crying is 'distressing' me!  I have done and would advise others to TRY controlled crying, its not for everyone but if you can stand it its a great, Alex took 2-3 days to sort himself out and not out of neglect as they are trying to incinuate here, because he was NEVER left for very long in between cuddling and shusshing!


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

levin - charlie's consultant said that it was the same for colic as reflux, in that the cortisol levels DONT reach high levels.


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## *Bev* (Dec 20, 2005)

I will say (as if I haven't said enough  ), that CC isn't right for ALL children or parents, I couldn't do it with Aimee to any degree because she has respiratory distress and therefore struggles to breath in normal circumstances so I do ANYTHING to keep her calm at all times!!  Probably why even now at 15mths she doesn't often sleep through!!


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## drownedgirl (Nov 12, 2006)

I must say this isn't the first thing I have read about the effcts of cortisol and other stress hormones on the developing brain (Margot Sunderland's book the Science of Parenting is fascinating) and my instinct tells me it cannot be good for a child's prolonged crying to be met with a lack of response. As the effects are likely to be a change on the development of different structures in the brain and things like increased depression as an adult, it really would be very hard to say for sure that CC hadn't had an adverse effect on an individual.

Of course sometimes a baby cries through pain, reflux or you are just able to respond as quickly as you'd like (twins... car journeys..) but that's different, in my mind, than intentionally leaving a child to cry to "sleep train" it.

I must say I despair a little at the "parenting industry" and the plethora of quick fix books written by people with no real knowledge of human pyschology, and I am more convinced by the writings of those with a scientific background and based on real evidence (brain scans etc)

As I say, Margot Sunderland, Director of Education and Training at the Centre for Child Mental Health in London, is someone to read on this subject
http://www.naturallynurturing.co.uk/MargotSunderland.htm


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

I do agree that PROLONGED crying is bad.

Before i did cc with charlie, we had bouts of crying for hours on end over night.  It would happen whether i was with him or not - he would wake crying, cry trying to get back to sleep, scream in the car (the worst was on an hours drive and couldn't stop as had to get back for mollie).

This really was prolonged crying - and it was exhausting, for everyone.

When we started CC, he had short bursts of crying (i never left him longer than 20 minutes, and that was only on a very few occasions - i rarely had to leave him longer than 10-15), and regular settling.

He responded very well to cc - the first night it took me an hour and a half (and before that, he could easily cry for 3 hours overnight), and he only woke once in the night, the second time, it took half an hour of cc, and he slept through until 7 in the morning.

He was never left for prolonged periods.  He responded to controlled crying (note the name CONTROLLED - not randomly leaving for hours on end), and within 2 days was sleeping through, and more importantly able to settle himself without screaming if he awoke in the night, which he hadn't previously been able to do.

Some children take longer on the first night or two - but i can assure you that we have saved hours and hours of crying, and presumeably cortisol production, by doing that couple of nights of CC.

The trouble is, it is hard to leave a child to cry, even for short periods, and people see the headlines and just assume that children are being put into their cots at 7 in the evening and just left to scream until they fall asleep exhausted, frightened and hysterical.  (as was recommended when i was a baby apparenlty - the first night i screamed until 3am, the second it was 1, the third it was 11pm, and then i too slept through. wouldn't fancy doing that though!)

There are very strict 'rules' for cc, and if you don't follow them, it can make the babies confused and effectively cry for longer - it is tough in the beginning, but i am a firm advocate, because i now have happy babies who sleep through, and are smily and bubbly in the mornings.  And i get to sleep through too.

xx


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## ChoChoSan (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't have children, but I think sometimes this kind of scare-mongering is really ill advised. I am sure that children being left to cry in Romanian orphanages do suffer from having a lack of response, but they don't get a response to anything at all, ever!

That is very different to a parent leaving a child to cry for a few minutes within a day in which all of the child's needs are met. Part of the point of controlled crying is for the baby to feel secure even though it is in its cot alone...mummy and daddy are still there, the baby is still loved and cared for, and everything is okay. The fact that the baby starts to go to sleep quickly on its own might say something about that...if these babies were still wide awake, staring at the ceiling in silent terror, then I think there may be a point to it, but if they are happily snoozing, it might suggest that they can now go to sleep alone in security and comfort.

By the way, when I refer to controlled crying I am talking about parents leaving a small amount of time before going in to the child again, not leaving a tiny baby to get completely overwrought.


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## *Bev* (Dec 20, 2005)

Sal I agree entirely with your post, none of us here, i'm sure leave our babies for hours.... having just spent time in hospital again with Aimee babies/ children do cry and cry for very prolonged periods of times and I didn't see doctors in and out discussing impacts on the brain!!


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## professor waffle (Apr 23, 2005)

I agree with Sally here. N was a very difficult baby to settle at night, cluster feeding & the crying if I attmepted to put him down. Soemthing had to be done so we sorted out a routine but then I was up & down the stairs to him every 5 mins.

We tried cc for 2 nights (the first night for 15 mins the 2nd night for 5 mins) & then ihe self settled every night after that & had done ever since (apart from one blip). I wasn't confident enough to co-sleep so it was the onlu option for me & we only ever needed to do it when he first went to bed, there was no need after any feed once he went to bed.

I learnt his sleepy cry & certainly didn't leave him for more than 15 mins & he was in no way distressed, if he had a distressed cry I checked him for everything before putting him back to bed. The 2 nights we did CC I waited outside the door to check on him if needed. Babies do cry as they get sleepy & try to fight it or just because they need sleep but don't understand that.

The blip was after a period of illness when he was about 1.5, he was in a bed & could get out & come to us crying. The first time we put him back in his cot until he settled again, the second time we did the gradual reatreat/no eye contact/no talking & that worked fine. At that stage he needed more than CC & we did what was needed until he felt ready to self settle again.

You have to be comfortable with what you choose to do & I have no problems with what we did & N is not a stressed child, in fact we have a very close & loving relationship. I do find some friends who did'nt want to try cc still have sleeping issues with their children of the same age as N


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## MAL. (Mar 19, 2007)

I think it is a load of rubbish! It gets me v angry when I see head lines like this. I also use(d) CC and have a good sleeper. Like it has been said if it is used properly it is v effective. Like pw said you get to know their cry. I tried going into lo to ssshhh and patting him but he used to go off his head he wanted to be left alone! I think as parents we have so much to worry about and I don't know about you ladies but feel guilty about if I am doing this or that right or wrong that I have to remind myself that I do know whats best for lo and not to read that kind of twaddle! Sorry to rant


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## levin (Jan 9, 2006)

I completely agree with Sallywags. Children do cry for hours on end even when you are with them - nights used to be terrible for us until we tried cc, and daytimes too because they were so tired and grouchy -  i'm sure that my babies complete lack of sleep before cc was much more damaging to their developing brain than the day or so it took for us to sort them out with cc.
As far as i can see cc isn't cruel if its done correctly i.e. starting off by only leaving baby for a couple of minutes and then gradually increasing this. Obviously i don't advocate people leaving their babies to cry for hours on end without going to check on them at regular intervals because that would be cruel.
As other people have said, its very easy to distinguish between a sleepy cry or a distressed cry, i don't think there is any harm at all allowing a sleepy baby to try and self settle.
My toddlers are so happy, sociable and intelligent - i find it very hard to believe that cc will cause them any psychological problems in the future - after all they won't even remember being left to cry in the future and i would assume that if it had caused significant changes in their brains then it would be obvious by now.


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## *Bev* (Dec 20, 2005)

✿ MAL✿ said:


> I think it is a load of rubbish! It gets me v angry when I see head lines like this. I also use(d) CC and have a good sleeper. Like it has been said if it is used properly it is v effective. Like pw said you get to know their cry. I tried going into lo to ssshhh and patting him but he used to go off his head he wanted to be left alone! I think as parents we have so much to worry about and I don't know about you ladies but feel guilty about if I am doing this or that right or wrong that I have to remind myself that I do know whats best for lo and not to read that kind of twaddle! Sorry to rant


I'm so with you, I too get incredibly angry about this stuff.... its down to personal preference at the end of the day


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

The trouble is this is a very emotive subject - but i think it does get out of proportion, i.e. this article that suggests that controlled crying is about leaving babies to cry for hours unattended.  

The media has a lot to answer for!!


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## slinkyfish (Jan 17, 2007)

Mmmm so all my children are going to be la la then because I did CC  

DD is 7 and in the gifted and talented program at school - not done her any harm  

There is a difference between allowing your baby to cry endlessly and not tending to their essential needs (which is called neglect) and training your baby to sleep in a controlled manor in a loving, caring, secure home


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't know about long-term harm but I do worry about what message my baby might internalise now about when he can expect a response from me and in turn if or how this might affect his self-esteem. I'll feel so much better tackling the sleep issue when he can talk. My biggest personal fear is that he would feel abandoned  - I should say that I WAS neglected as a kid and left alone as a baby and toddler and I clearly remember feeling totally abandoned not knowing when my mum would be back or where she was... Very sad I know. So even though consiously I can think that my baby won't feel that way because he isn't neglected and he can see I'm right there - the thought that he could feel abandoned even for a moment is just not something I can face.

However, I know plenty of mums who have used cc successfully and they are warm caring mummies with happy LOs. If I was to use CC I would just make sure I had plenty of support from a mum who had been successful with it and I knew was kind - not from a victorian-esq sleep trainer from the yellow pages.

I think that there is ALOT of pressure for mums to sleep train their babies as early as possible and that a baby who sleeps through the night at 3 months is perceived as 'good' and one that wakes as 'bad'. Even though it's normal for babies to wake in the night (that's why there are so many books on the subject of how to stop it!). The idea seems to be that if you don't teach them to sleep then they never will, which just isn't true. Sleeping through the night is a milestone they all reach eventually. My 9 1/2 month baby now sleeps from 9pm to 4.30am has a quick sleepy feed and then goes back to sleep till 8am.

I feel like you have to either be a 'tough' a mummy of you're a soft doughnut whose children will grow up to unruly criminals. As usual the media/society like to divide us...

p.s. 
In terms of research - how do they do it? I mean there must be so many things that influence us between baby and adulthood how could they pin-point one thing over another?


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## drownedgirl (Nov 12, 2006)

Dominique123456 said:


> In terms of research - how do they do it? I mean there must be so many things that influence us between baby and adulthood how could they pin-point one thing over another?


This particular report was that saliva swabs in babies that had been left to cry showed high levels of the stress hormone, cortisol.

And there has been a lot of research into the effects of cortisol on the brain (and later responses to stress) This is mostly via brain scans, as opposed to behavioural research.

Lots of good hard scientific info about this if you want to go look for it.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mOTjMiSNa8IJ:www.5jt.com/extracts/whylovematters.doc+research+cortisol+baby+brain&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/apr/21/leaving-baby-to-cry-brain-development-damage


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## professor waffle (Apr 23, 2005)

I don't doubt that there is valid & plentiful research done on stress in babies however I do disagree that CC is the main way it is caused. Like has been said before leaving a distressed baby to cry is not what cc is about. In my mind if cc is done correctly then there is no harm BUT there are lots of babies left to cry by parents for other reasons than sleep training which I am sure cause a great deal of distress to a child. If a child receives lots of love & affection & is 'sleep trained' when tired but NOT left to cry endlessly for half an hour or more then I'm all for CC. I always went to N when he cried none stop for more than a minute or two, but if his crying was intermittant I would wait rather than rushing in straightaway & probably disturbing him as he was nodding off again!

Actually I disagree with cc being called sleep training anyway, if done properly it is beneficial as a baby learns to self settle without props or triggers & that can only be a good thing. If cc is sleep training then any form of routine is 'training' in the same way surely & we don't disagree that routine is a good thing for children? Why is sleep training discerned as something negative?


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## slinkyfish (Jan 17, 2007)

professor waffle said:


> I don't doubt that there is valid & plentiful research done on stress in babies however I do disagree that CC is the main way it is caused. Like has been said before leaving a distressed baby to cry is not what cc is about. In my mind if cc is done correctly then there is no harm BUT there are lots of babies left to cry by parents for other reasons than sleep training which I am sure cause a great deal of distress to a child. If a child receives lots of love & affection & is 'sleep trained' when tired but NOT left to cry endlessly for half an hour or more then I'm all for CC. I always went to N when he cried none stop for more than a minute or two, but if his crying was intermittant I would wait rather than rushing in straightaway & probably disturbing him as he was nodding off again!
> 
> Actually I disagree with cc being called sleep training anyway, if done properly it is beneficial as a baby learns to self settle without props or triggers & that can only be a good thing. If cc is sleep training then any form of routine is 'training' in the same way surely & we don't disagree that routine is a good thing for children? Why is sleep training discerned as something negative?


Well said! xx


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## Bree (Mar 21, 2007)

What an interesting discussion. Some interesting points made. I just thought I would add something in to the mix; One of the reasons CC works is that you are teaching the baby that mummy WILL always come if they cry, even if it takes 5 or 10 minutes. Its this reassurance that allows them to relax and actually start falling asleep on their own. As Chris Green (author of Toddler Taming) says, learning to relax and fall asleep on your own is a great gift and children who never learn this skill can end up having sleep problems including chronic insomnia into adulthood. i am sure there are other ways of helping children with sleep issues. CC is just one way and perfectly kind and humane if done properly (ie NEVER let the child cry longer than 20 mins absolute max). 

Bree x


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

Lovely viewpoint bree - thank you, it certainly backs up what we have already said, and sounds like a very valid explanation of why cc does actually work!
xx


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Just read the article on GMTV's website.  It did take time, but DH and I learnt what the girls cries mean.  There are 2 which do get ignored, the first being Sian's cry when she tries to put her thumb in her mouth and misses, the other being Hannah's pram not moving cry, the latter isn't always ignored though depending on how long the pram has been still or stop and start in a short space of time.  DH and I have been very lucky in that both girls have slept well between feeds from birth.  If they didn't sleep well then yes I would have considered CC.  If it's done properly then I really can't see how it can cause problems later in life.  I'm thinking that there may be parents who have done it but haven't done it properly and that's why their children have developed problems.


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## Bree (Mar 21, 2007)

Just to say "Hi" to Cate. We met some time ago on another thread when you were feeling like you were never going to have kids and things looked bleak. How FAB that you are now mummy to twins!!!! Looks like you have some frosties left too! I have number two on the way now and I did dispare that would ever happen. In fact I went through quite a dark time on THAT journey. How brill that we have both been blessed. Sending good vibes to all those waiting for their miracle...it can happen. Bree x


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