# IVF success @ 45??



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Hi ladies, 

I'm 45, have two children in their 20's. Partner is my age, also two children. Teenagers. He's had a vasectomy *slaps forehead* 😩 8 years ago. I've wanted another baby for years, but never had the right guy around. Now I think I may have found the right one, but.. 

Ok. I'm reading clinic success rates and no one seems to have a success with a 45yr old with own eggs. That's not encouraging. However, I'm still feeling positive..ish. I have a loan in progress and an appointment at Herts & Essex for tests and consultation, re IVF and sperm retrieval. They seem very friendly and not as blunt, and harsh as a well know #1 results clinic in London. Ok, I know my odds are stacked, but a conversation would be nice rather than 'never been done. Won't happen'. 

It's not what I'd like but I'm starting to consider DE if my AMH levels aren't great. 

Anyone have any positive comments for me? 

Thank you


----------



## angelica_wales (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi sproglet and welcome!

There's a board dedicated to over 40's that you can find  here. You may find some useful information there and like minded souls 

A lady at my clinic is 45 and produces lovely embryos but hasn't been successful this time but there are plenty of success stories out there. Our consultant told her she wouldn't hesitate trying OE again before DE. I hope that your consultant is honest with you and helps you make your decision when you get your AMH results

Good luck with your journey

Angelica
xx


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Thank you Angelica for taking the time. Yes, I will have a look now. Xx.


----------



## karenanna (Dec 27, 2008)

Hi Sproglet

I think it will depend on your hormone levels, FSH and AMH, so I guess they are the first things to get checked out.

Your other half will need to have this procedure (my DH had it after a failed reversal) - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=323719.0
I'm not sure which clinic in London you mean, but I cycled with 2 ladies at the ARGC one who was 42 years (got one egg, one embie, one little boy) and the other who was almost 44 when she started with them in 2009 and now has 2 little ones.

I'm the moderator on the Herts and Essex board, as well as the ARGC board so may see you over there - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=211.0

KA xxx


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Hi KA 

Thank you. So happy to read you have two babies. Fabulous. 

Yes, those are the two clinics I've been trying to decide between. Herts have been more encouraging re my age. I'm not unrealistic. Just need honest opinions. It's obviously very expensive and if one feels more confident in dealing with 45 year olds then that's where I'll go. I'm turning into a bit of a stress head ticking timebomb. Yes, having tests at Herts in 10 days. 

Thank you.


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

Sproglet, you may want to ask Smiley 723 about her experience at ARGC. She's on the ARGC March April 2014 cyclers, and is 45 and had excellent responses all the way through, although a BFN. I have a suspicion she'd still recommend ARGC if you were going to do a cycle.

Also, Have you looked at the HFEA website? For the 2012 Q2 results, Herts did 5 IVF/ICSI for over 44's, and had no pregnancies, and 0 pregnancies from 2 cycles in 2013 Q2.

For 2012 Q2, ARGC did 25 IVF/ICSIs for over 44s, and had 1 live birth, while 2013 Q2 had 26 cycles and no pregnancies.
http://guide.hfea.gov.uk/guide/CloserLook.aspx?code=157&s=l&rate=i&rate_sub=FSO&bdy=2012&bda=o44&bds=FSO&bdt=ivf_icsi#

Obviously, this is just statistics, and we all know that there is still a chance for you, but perhaps it's just that ARGC are being more realistic about the results (i think they told Smiley a 5% chance). Purely from the numbers cycling, they seem to have more experience with >44 year olds than Herts (51 cycles at ARGC in 2012/13 compared to 7 at Herts).

Best of luck with making your decision, and finding what is right for you.

/links


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Hi Mmummy,

Thank you for that. I didn't see those stats. I am trying to do my research, but whew, it's overwhelming. I've actually paid for consultation and tests as asked for, when I booked. I don't think it's refundable. However they will see me over a month quicker than ARGC. I know (like restaurants) no queue isn't always a good sign, but if it saves me a vital month 😩. ARGC also cheaper. Double 😩😩. They did much more transfers granted, but just one live birth. So they have more experience but the 'average' might work out the same. Mind you zero is zero. I think I might need to talk to both. I'm like a woman possessed right now. And turning into a total baby bore. It's lovely to have this site to talk to as everyone else has no clue about my stresses and think I'm 'past it' anyway. Nice. I'll try to find a way to chat to smiley. 

Thank you
V grateful for your time xx


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

You're welcome, sproglet... 

I know of some people who made an appt with ARGC then rang to check for cancellations, and got appts within 2 weeks rather than 6.  I don't know how common this is, though.

While you're going through the waiting time and monitoring cycles, can I suggest you have a look at angelbumps fertility protocol (and/or other 'getting your eggs to be the best they can be' sites) for supplements and health.  I wish i'd known before i started my cycle.  the only thing i'd say is that, IF you go with ARGC, they don't like DHEA, although other clinics have had good results.

My theory on cost was that i'd rather pay more on one successful cycle than less, each time, on 2 cycles, but stats are hugely different in my age group (42) for ARGC compared with other clinics, it really is twice as likely (or more) statistically for me to  fall pregnant with ARGC.    You may want to consider calling both clinics and asking what their recent success rates are.  They won't be verified by HFEA but i can't imagine they'd tell you they had live births if they didn't :-/

WRT smiley, try sending her a PM and say that i suggested you ask.  She knows me well.  In real life even.  I'm not sure that she's on FF anymore these days or not, but a PM should go to her email, I think.

xx


----------



## Altai (Aug 18, 2013)

Welcome sproglet,

Unfortunately statistics for 44-45 is so depressing. But as mmummy says you better go with the clinic which has more experience of dealing with over 44. 
I did two monitoring cycles with ARGC and generally would like to go with them. But their price tag puts me off. I think in our age group one should be prepared to have several ivf cycles. ARGC are very expensive, I think you looked at their website prices but this is not final figure. I was quoted around £13k without immune treatment. Don't even want to think about cost with immunes.  As you said they may have more transfers for our age group (I turned 45) but 'average' clinic results still will be the same.  But ARGC have a great success rate for 42-43. So more expertise with older ladies. 
Have a look at over 40 thread perhaps you will find more clinics recommendations for our age group. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Evening ladies. 

ARGC Seems to be the one to go for but 13k. Wow. Where does everyone get their funds from? Herts and Essex said 7-8k on the phone.  

I have an appointment a week tomorrow but am calling in the morning to see if I can bring forward. I want stats of patients with no problem history. On the 50+ forum ladies seem to be going to Turkey and getting IVF at fraction of cost. Shame Uk clinics want to charge so much for ladies chasing the dream. 

I've paid for consultation and will report bk to this site to see if maybe someone else could also benefit from anything that I may learn. If not convinced I will hopefully get to chat to Smiley 723 and get an appointment with ARGC too. 

Very appreciative of all the ladies who have taken time to respond to my feed. 

Thank you x


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Best of luck with your treatment everyone.  I'm reading with great interest and I'm shocked at the prices quoted.  Why are the prices £7k - £8k with OEs and £13k with OEs.  Is it the same price as that for the younger women at those clinics?  If not,  how is the treatment different?  I find those prices shocking.  When I had my first round of treatment in 2005 the price in the South West was around £2500 for treatment plus around £800 for the drugs I think (no NHS provision in the SW then).  It did appear that as soon as the NHS started covering the cost of treatment the prices started climbing rapidly but £13k?!  Wow!... Why does it cost that much?


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

Sproglet... just a thought, but have you considered Serum?  Lots of older mummies speak highly of it....


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Yes,  I've heard lots of people speaking highly about Serum and the consultant there called Penny I think.  I think I heard they do a good deal for two round so if the first round doesn't succeed you can go straight ahead with the second round.  I think they often transfer three or four embryos if the patient wants this which seems to work very well for ladies over 40 and doesn't seem to end up with too many multiple births relatively speaking.  Does anyone know the prices for serum?


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

I think I heard they also provide details for accommodation and transport to clinic etc so a good all round package deal arrangement so to speak.


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

I just found this useful link for Serum information including prices.

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=274114.msg4718057


----------



## karenanna (Dec 27, 2008)

SWGirl said:


> Best of luck with your treatment everyone. I'm reading with great interest and I'm shocked at the prices quoted. Why are the prices £7k - £8k with OEs and £13k with OEs. Is it the same price as that for the younger women at those clinics? If not, how is the treatment different? I find those prices shocking. When I had my first round of treatment in 2005 the price in the South West was around £2500 for treatment plus around £800 for the drugs I think (no NHS provision in the SW then). It did appear that as soon as the NHS started covering the cost of treatment the prices started climbing rapidly but £13k?! Wow!... Why does it cost that much?


Hi SWGirl - I went to ARGC after 4 failed IVFs at another clinic where I had "cheaper" treatment.

At the ARGC you are paying for constant monitoring and change of drugs sometimes twice a day to get the best response. As a comparison when I was treated at the Bridge Centre I had 3 scans and blood tests once I'd started stimming drugs to EC. Compared to the ARGC where as I have PCO I had a total of 12 blood tests, plus immunes blood tests, plus 12 scans from starting stimming as well as daily changes to my medication to get the best quality eggs and therefore embryos. I also had IVIG treatment for natural killer cells.

So it is a radically different approach you are paying for ...

KA xxx


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Karenanna, SWgirl & Mmummy, 

Thank you for your replies. My head is swimming. 

Today I went to Herts and Essex for blood test. I will get results 26th, at the same time as my initial consultation. They are testing for AMH. I am now compiling a list of questions to ask on the day. As a total newbie, if you can think of anything I'd be very grateful.

Re Serum, I like the way they work, but that would be a second stage for me as they would be donor eggs. I know I'm probably a little deluded at 45, but I have to rule out OE first. Also, we'd need a sperm retrieval, and from what I've read they can't offer that. Shame there isn't a Penny in North London! 

I've also emailed ARGC (couldn't face another cold conversation) detailing mine and DP history, also asking what AMH levels they'd be confident to work with. The constant monitoring, daily bloods and 7 days pw open is very comforting. I know it's a <1 stat, but hey! It's a question. 

Thank you ladies xx


----------



## karenanna (Dec 27, 2008)

Sproglet

There's a great set of questions here - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=66631.0

You could also look at the ones below for a follow up consultation if you wanted to be really comprehensive - particularly section 6 on further tests - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=66634.0

KA xxx


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Karenanna thank you. I will take a look x


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

ah,  I see.  Yes that's a lot of monitoring.  Lots of annual leave required for that amount of monitoring.  Yes,  most clinics just do blood tests and one scan prior to commencing treatment and then 3 - 5 scans over the ten to 14 days of stims.


----------



## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Clearly worth every penny Karenanna for you.  Two lovely babies from your first cycle with ARGC,  that's fantastic.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Morning. 

Yes, Karenannas bubbas are gorgeous. So, so blessed. 

Head still on overdrive. One week to wait for appointment and AMH results. What actually IS a realistic result? Hopefully will get an email bk from ARGC today. But does any 44/45yr old ladies have any experiences with Herts and Essex? 

Trekking into London would be a bit of a mission but ARGC have second clinic at Champneys Tring. For monitoring. Yes that's great, 30 mins drive but Mr T cannot be at both? Or do you not see him past the initial stage. 

Thank you ladies. Sorry if I'm boring you 😁 x

/links


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

Sproglet, you quite likely may never 'see' Dr T.  He does the occasional transfer, but he oversees every single patient on a daily basis.  That means he doesn't have time to go through the day to day with most people.  If you specifically ask for him to discuss an issue, it is possible to meet with him, but the wait is pretty long, as you need to fit around his schedule.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

He's quite an amazing guy. Been reading up on him. I know he's a bit alternative but if it works.. Never seems to take a day off. Waiting for an email back. Probably won't get one tho until I can give my AMH reading tho.


----------



## Altai (Aug 18, 2013)

Sproglet- get your GP to run D2/3 blood tests (fsh, e2, lh) and thyroid while waiting. Argc work based on your fsh  level.  If you go with them , better not to do these privately as they would do monitoring cycle, so u might end up paying twice for  the same tests. The dr told success rate will be < 1% for this age group (45). And yes, it is  <5 when you are 44. 
You can also try Lister fertility clinic, I think they treat 45.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Morning Altai, 

 sorry to hear your BFN. Seems so unfair. This baby business should be so much easier. 

Very grateful for your advise re what to ask for. Can't go today but tomorrow morning will be on docs doorstep. Then when have above and AMH results will send another letter. Followed up with a call. I am thinking in this country ARGC. However will send results to Lister. Don't know how long results take but have appt at H&E Tues. I'm touching all bases. 45, Umm I'm boring myself saying how old I am now. 

Thank you everyone so far for your input.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Update..

Seen my doctor. Asked for blood tests. He doesn't seem that keen. Said surgeries request tests as a package. Then they would follow up results. Obviously I'm not entitled to fertility help as I'm 45 (getting so bored of saying that) so he would bring up in next meeting. 

I'm not feeling quite as confident as I was. 

Hope you all have a good weekend.


----------



## Altai (Aug 18, 2013)

Sproglet - perhaps you should insist. They do D 2/3 and D21 tests on NHS for sure. 
They won't do amh and afc though. 
Funding - post codes lottery. My friend, she's 43, and her GP even offered to write a request for ivf funding for her. Her partner has children from previous relationship. Would be interesting to see if she'd get it. 

Unfortunately clinics and GPs would be unwilling to do anything  for u, so you have to prepare yourself to face this and push for whatever test etc you need. 

Good luck.

A.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Thank you. 

I think there is quite a bit of difference between 43 and 45. I hope your friend gets the help she needs. I'm totally regretting waiting so long. I wish I'd been 43 and going alone rather than wait until 45 (with a guy that's had a vasectomy!). 

I get my AMH test result Tues. FSH looks like it can be lowered with herbal supplements so may not be entirely true to your bodies capability. So, depending on my AMH result, this will determine my next step. 

Hopefully I'll have something more positive to post next week. x


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

Sproglet, I've possbibly mentioned angelbump's fertility protocol ... (look on FF if you haven't seen it); or similar other threads.  Just be careful of using DHEA to lower FSH as if you go to ARGC they don't really like it, though some other clinics are fine with it.

Best of luck!

(sorry, internet playing up and scrolling back through past posts is taking an aeon.)


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Morning Mmummy, 

I didn't know about that feed. Have just book marked for reading later as I have to leave for work now. 

Thank you. 
Have a good day x


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

If you're looking for reading, the fertility diet by sarah dobbyns (i could have that slightly wrong) is excellent info too, for us, ahem, older women


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Evening,

Ok, I've read the in depth vitamin protocol which was very interesting. Some I knew like propolis..
http://www.apitherapywellbeing.co.uk/wellbeing-range/apimist-and-apimist-plus/product/apimist-plus-pollen
Ali, is lovely to talk to. 
AngelBumps educated me on EPO. I take every day. Didn't realise should only be taken on days 1-14. Found it all interesting.

Ordered my fertility diet book. Via Amazon. Thank you for those tips mmuummy.

And *ouch* read the blog Viszlalover. Yea, I know. I'm old. But doing everything in my means to make it happen. I'm very conscious of knowing when to stop. (My finances make me screamingly aware of this). Can't easily afford this journey, so if I can improve my chances by research, supps, and diet, that's the way I'll go. Thank you though for keeping it real. Good luck for two days time.

I'm very anxious re my AMH results on Tues. Had the most disturbing dream! Shan't elaborate 

Hope you're all enjoying your weekend. Xx

/links


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

Sproglet, ARGC don't really seem to care much about AMH...


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Really? FSH can be altered tho, thro diet etc. So surely that's not a true indicator of ovarian reserve. Hopefully docs will agree to do my FHS on NHS next week. I'll email ARGC when I get both results, however they've still not responded to my email from last week.


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Also just read this.. 

Bee propolis may also contain immunomodulating properties. This may be beneficial for autoimmune related fertility issues such as recurrent miscarriage due to immunological response (mothers body attacks and rejects the fetus), autoimmune related Premature Ovarian Failure and antisperm antibody. Antisperm antibodies can be present in woman as an allergic reaction to sperm, thus triggering immune response to attack the sperm. These antisperm antibodies can also be present in men as well, where their bodies attack their own sperm. This is commonly seen in up to 70% of men who get a vasectomy. Bee Propolis is included in the Alive Bee Power blend.

Don't know if this is useful to anyone. I'm now going to get DP to suck a spoonful every day!


----------



## karenanna (Dec 27, 2008)

SprogletNumberThree? said:


> Really? FSH can be altered tho, thro diet etc. So surely that's not a true indicator of ovarian reserve. Hopefully docs will agree to do my FHS on NHS next week. I'll email ARGC when I get both results, however they've still not responded to my email from last week.


Sproglet - better to phone them - they don't really do e-mail.

KA xxx


----------



## mmummy (Dec 20, 2013)

I don't think it's ovarian reserve they're worried about with fsh, sproglet, i think it's something to do with the cycle being unlikely to work.  They check you each month before you can cycle.  No use wasting £12000. My fsh halved between my first and second test (without supplements, tho a natural bfp and miscarriage in between)


----------



## SprogletNumberThree? (Aug 16, 2014)

Morning Karenanna & Mmummy. 

I have phoned ARGC several times. No one could answer up to date figures on 45 year olds. They say ask for 'Ellie' but she's never available, hence the email. I'll call again Tues. if NHS won't do FHS then I might ask to be referred. £250 excess but get all bloods done in one. Prudential might not go for that tho. (Covering all angles )

I'd like to know % ARGC (prob none) 45 OE also DE. I'll be asking same at H&E and thirdly Lister. 

Also cycles! *stress* I'm 45 every month is eggs down the tube.. Literally. 

Ladies, you've been through such a lot and I'm fretting and I haven't even started yet. Thank you for your help. 

Xx


----------

