# Donor information on birth certificates



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Dear all
Thought you would like to know that there will be a debate in the House of Lords tomorrow afternoon, Monday 10th December, about ways in which donor conceived children should be 'told' about their origins.  In an amendment to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, currently going through the parliamentary process, Earl Howe will propose that birth certificates be annotated in some way.  Baroness Barker will suggest that a symbol should be used instead of words.
DC Network does not believe that either words or symbols on birth certificates should be the route by which donor conceived people learn of their origins or that parents' hands should be 'forced' in this way.  Although our philosophy is very strongly pro-telling, we believe that parents should reach this decision through a process of awareness-raising, education and support.  We believe the move is unworkable in practice and could be counter-productive, making it much more difficult for parents, who initially felt they would or could not tell, to change their minds at a later date.

If you would like to let the Lords know how you feel about this proposal email Earl Howe on [email protected] and Baroness Barker on [email protected]

As the emphasis is on the needs of donor conceived people, messages and arguments that prioritise the needs of the children are likely to be 'heard' more than those that stress a parents perspective.
Best
Olivia


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Forgot to add the link to the site where you can read the report of the debate http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2007-08/humanfertilisationandembryology.html

Nothing that is proposed tomorrow is final in any way. There is plenty of time to influence both Lords and Commons. Let them know how you feel.
Olivia

/links


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

I'd just like to say that I've written to Baroness Baker and received an extremely prompt as well as considered reply. I am pleased to note that she says she will 'probably' side with the recommendation of the DCN (though that mustn't stop others telling her their opinion!). I have also written to Earl Howe and my member of parliment - I've yet to hear from them (though my MP has never failed to respond to anything, it just take time).
Lizi.x


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

OMG, Howe must have been listening, I've just had a response from him!
"I have taken your warnings very much on board, having thought about them very carefully."
I wont quote it all here but it looks like he's changing his mind!!! (I'm actually in tears having read it!)

You may also find this Hansard link helpful http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/71210-0014.htm#0712113000017

it seems Baroness Barker is not proposing for this 'symbol' to be on the birth certificate but held more confidentially elsewhere.

Democracy in action hey? So now it's your turn, TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL!!
Lizi.x

/links


----------



## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

I will write to them as well.  Interesting statistic from the TImes newspaper is that 54% of parents opt for discloursure on sperm conceived children and 78% for egg donation.  So perhaps what is needed is alot more help for men in coming to terms with infertility.


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Oh well done LiziBee, democracy in action as you say and I do encourage others to do the same.
The Hansard reference is really unclear about what/where the potential symbol will be kept.  When I spoke to Baroness Barker on the 'phone it seemed pretty clear to me that she intended it to be on the birth certificate, but I am delighted to hear from her response to you that she is likely to be backing the DCN line. 

You are right BoW, we do need lots of help and support for men around fertility issues.  Our daughter says she is so proud of her dad for being able to deal with his infertility and that she has learned what a real man is from him.
Olivia


----------



## jess p (Sep 25, 2004)

Wow! Well done you - real Girl Power!!

I'm just about to send a quick email to Earl Howe too!

Jess x


----------



## jess p (Sep 25, 2004)

I've just had my reply!

Earl Howe acknowledges that this will not work!!!

We've won!  Hurrah!

Well done Lizzi!

Jess xxx


----------



## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

yes I got my reply as well, he is not going to pursue it.  That's brilliant. xx


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Fantastic everyone, but this is not the end of the line and does not mean that an attempt to bring in some system by which parents' hands may be forced has now gone away.  The third reading of this Bill takes place in the Lords on 15th January.  Amendments may be put down at any time up to the 14th.  Keep watching the relevant web pages (above) and I will do my best to keep you up to date here.
Olivia


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

I think Olivia's right, we've won a battle not a war, we must keep up the pressure!!
Lizi.x


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Hi All
Just to let you know that the whole issue of birth certificates being annotated - or even more radical proposals - are likely to come up again in the Lords on Monday 21st January on the 2nd day of the Report Stage of the HFE Bill. If you feel you have good arguments to offer against proposals of this sort and they put the interests of the child first, you may want to contact (again) Baroness Barker, Lord Howe or Lord Jenkin, all of whom are now convinced that marking birth certs is not the way forward.
You can listen/watch the debate on line by following the House of Lords signs from this link
http://www.parliament.uk/
Best
Olivia

/links


----------



## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

hi Olivia

Do you know what the more radical proposals could be.


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

The more radical proposals could involve what has been referred to as an 'adoption-style system' where the genetic parents (ie. including the name of the donor) go on the birth certificate and the legal parents go on a new 'legal identity certifcate'.  The parents (as we know them) of a child would be issued with the second certificate and the actual birth certificate would only be available to the child from age 18 or possibly 16.
The same proposal involves collecting information from clinics when a woman is pregnant in order to circunvent non-reporting of a live birth involving donor conception.
I do not actually KNOW that this will be put forward but a paper that sets out this proposal is circulating amongst Peers and those of the persuasion like Lord Alton may well be tempted.
DCN has strongly briefed against any such thing and we think that such an intrusive (and expensive) option is unlikely to be considered seriously but it could put ideas in some peoples heads and they may go for a modified version.
Olivia


----------



## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

Truely scary.  I imagine everyone  would then go abroad and put them in fear of telling their clinics when they give birth. I read that DCN found that 99% of couples that went to them believed in disclosure.  I do think everyone who cares should also contact Lord Alton who does seem the most radical in his ideas.


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Does anyone have a more direct line of contact to Lord Alton than the House of Lords fax machine? If so could you PM me with it?
In the mean time girls try http://www.theyworkforyou.com/peer/lord_alton_of_liverpool

Lizi.x


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Hi Lizibee
Like many other Lords David Alton has a direct email address, [email protected]

Olivia


----------



## eli..g (May 9, 2006)

I did email earl howe when tis thread fist started, and got a swift and positive response.  I'll try and put some words together and try again to Lord Alton!


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Thanks Olivia (and BoW)- he shall feel my wroth (or at least the strength of my opinions - don't worry, I'll be polite!!)
BTW do you feel it is worth tackling Lord Alton on the issue of marriage, after all this is an issue he has 'stood up for' in the past and his amendment would effectively make many children 'born outside of wedlock' (just so you know my personal opinion is that I couldn't give a monkey's if parents are married or not I just wondered if this is an argument that would work on him)?
Lizi.x


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

In fact, interestingly enough, neither Lord Alton nor anyone else, has put down an amendment making direct proposals about birth certificates.  This is good news, but I am told by authoritative sources that he is likely to use arguments taken from the paper described when debating other amendments.  I am led to believe that they are unlikely to sway the Government position, which is that education, awareness raising, counselling, guidance, preparation etc. is the way forward in ensuring that parents understand why 'telling' is so important.

BTW, not sure I understand your argument LiziBee with regards to children being born 'out of wedlock'. Probably me being a bit dim but could you explain a bit more.
Olivia


----------



## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

well that seems like good news, but I imagine this is going to linger for sometime.


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Yes BoW you are right, this is going to linger for some time.  We still have the 3rd reading in the Lords and then the whole process to go through again in the Commons.  Not there yet.  Watch this space.
Olivia


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

This whole thing is making me so stressed and upset. I wish it could all be over (on the other hand the longer it goes on the more likely the little one I'm carrying at the moment wont be affected by it, but that wont save all the people after us). I'm not kidding - I swear the stress is making me ill.
Lizi.x


----------



## spooks (Oct 11, 2007)

I too feel really stressed about this - to be honest it ruined my weekend. 
We are responsible people trying to concieve a child in the 'safest, most responsible' way. 
It doesn't seem fair that I can go out and have a one night stand with a stranger and either leave the birth certificate blank or put my husbands name on it!!! 
I understand and fully support the right for a child to know how they were concieved but, if we're lucky enough to have a child, we feel strongly that they should be one of the first people to know how they got here; from us in a caring and sensitive way when they are ready to know. Not by being told by the woman in the post office who has seen their birth certificate when getting a passport or by the doctors receptionist! I live in a very small village and this is a very real possibility.  
I read (can't remember where so don't know if it's accurate) that 1 in 3 children are brought up by men who are not their biological fathers - how many of them (children and dads) know the truth! I feel like we are being penalised for doing the right thing.
Moan over! Thanks. 
Spooks
PS Lizibee - hope you're feeling okay


----------



## spooks (Oct 11, 2007)

OOOh I forgot the 'i before e except after c rule'


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Hi ladies
Please don't let all this upset you too much.  I really don't think the government is going to let it happen.  They are the good guys in all this (perhaps for once!) and I'm pretty sure are not going to allow themselves to be swayed by emotional (and completely impractical) arguments originating from a small bunch of DC adults filtered through a lot of peers who like the sound of their own voices, but have not bothered to think through the issues properly.
Olivia


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Thanks Olivia 
Any idea how the debate today went?
Lizi.x


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

The actual issue of birth certificates was not reached last night because of the length of debate on other matters. Another date will be set for next week. However, Baroness Royall, the government spokesperson, made it very clear that the government's position was that education about 'telling' was their preferred way forward. There was unanimity in the chamber about the need to tell children about their DC origins from an early age and (blush) much praise for DC Network. Confirmation was also given about funding for DCN from the DoH to run Telling and Talking workshops and pilots of preparation courses for DC parenthood.
You can read exactly what was said yesterday from this link http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2007-08/humanfertilisationandembryology.html
Olivia


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

I don't know whether I'm pleased or dissappointed that they didn't get on to it!
I am pleased that the DCN got the praise it deserved and thrilled to hear you have funding for the workshops and preparation courses - congratulations.
Lizi.x


----------



## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Just incase no one has the time to read teh Hansard here's the final quote from Lord Jenkin of Roding


> My Lords, before I withdraw the amendment, I should like to say how grateful I am for the widespread support that my amendments have attracted from all sides of the House. I think that we are all broadly agreed in principle. On the question of certificates-a number of Members raised this, including my noble friend on the Front Bench-I have tabled an amendment which provides what I hope will be an acceptable procedure whereby the HFEA will be able to maintain a continuing review of certificates. Like my noble friend, I accept that the Government are not going to provide for compulsory notification on birth certificates. That is quite right in my view. One of the organisations involved-the Donor Conception Network-is opposed to that at the present time. I do not want to anticipate the arguments on my later amendment, because it is even more complicated than the ones discussed in this short debate. This amendment is not about that.
> 
> I am greatly encouraged by what the Minister said about the intention behind the Government's amendment. I am grateful for her assurances that she will consider, between now and Third Reading, whether some specific mention of donor conception should go into the code. Although many of us, such as the noble Lord, Lord Neill, and others, would like to see it in the Bill, if it is in the code and is sufficiently specific, one can feel that one has made a good deal of progress. With those words, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
> 
> Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.


Taken from:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/80121-0017.htm

Lizi.x

/links


----------



## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Thank you LiziBee.  We are about to be very busy!
Olivia


----------

