# Destined for something else than childbearing



## foreign body

I am new to this section of the board. So, please bear with me if i talk about something that has been discussed ad nauseam.

Tonight i had one of those "illuminations", almost as if everything started to make sense all of a sudden.

I went to a great dinner party, and discovered that out of 9 women, 8 had no children. Which is very very unusual given the age group (40-45 y/o).
Most of them have very successful careers, a great quality of life and few regrets. I was the only one actively trying for a child...and by far the most miserable...a BBT slave, a POAS addict, whose life revolves around hormonal patterns, in a dead relationship (I often think of my partner as a sperm donor and would have ended this relationship if it wasn't for a very slim chance of conceiving)

I started to wonder why i am still clutching at straws, instead of moving on and embracing my fate.
Probably because i live in a society where a woman who has no children is defined in negative terms (childless) and pitied because of that. F..k that!

By shifting my perspective, i realised that having no children can actually be a blessing, as it might enable me to achieve what mothers cannot. Why have i dwelled on my perceived lack for 10 years instead of celebrating it and using it as a spur to accomplish something that is in my power to do?

I have let my infertility define me in a negative way, i lost my confidence, i felt undermined by it, i was held back, instead of pushed forward. The last ten years were wasted in the pursuit of something that i was not destined for. 
In the past, before IVF and fertility treatment, women were told to accept thair fate. And invariably did. Now we feel guilty if we don't try the latest reproductive technology. What is so terrible about being infertile We are healthy, strong, capable, smart, empathic...why are we made to feel handicapped by something that is perfectly natural? Some women are born to have children, some are born to contribute to society in a different way. Infertility is as natural as fertility. It is found in any age and any place, from the beginning of time. Why can't our society accept it? Isn't our planet already overpopulated? 

In the past women without children played a very important role in society: shamans, nuns, visionaries, philosophers, psychics, warriors, healers...they were respected and even worshipped. Those who got married and were then repudiated, enjoyed a level of freedom and independence unknown to married women.

Now, the fertility industry is  big business, fertility specialists are the wealthiest doctors around, and the pharmaceutical industry is making a lot of money out of infertile women.

I just wanted to share my thoughts with you. The insights i gained tonight really helped me to change my focus. Now i feel blessed, because i know something else is in store for me. I am not destined to have children, which means the road ahead is clear and now I must push the pedal and gather speed!


----------



## astrid

Hello Foreignbody
What a powerful and fantastic post. It shows so much wisdom and such an all round perspective on life and how women are perceived in society.
Two years ago i went on a workshop for women coping with infertility. And the lecturer showed us the different facets of being a woman. We, as women are here to procreate and that is what our life is all about? Like you, i have also been caught up with the latest treatment, but as much as i take my hat off to the expertise of being a Consultant specialising in Infertility. I also hold some contempt that this is such a money making industry, that i have lost the trust and faith in alot of these consultants. I cannot way up the honesty of what they say anymore? but hey without them alot of people would not have had their dream come true.
My neighbour echoed the same words as you, she mentioned the other day about some people are here to have children, whilst others are here to do other things. My argument to that was, because you can give birth this doesn't make you a mother. But she who also has never had children, states you can channel your maternalism into other areas of ones life.
The other point that you raised about the unhappiness of Infertility. I feel alot happier in myself compared to being in the heart of going through IVF. Its the pulling back i have problems with such as the different options for treatment and when to give up? I agree when you mentioned about your DH and him being the machine for sperm. I feel sad because thats what has happened to us and there is that lack of feeling wanted on the male part...just give me your sperm and shut up (well thats what i have been like)ooops.. 
I agree there is more to life than just children...but i also think it is about some form of acceptance because of what you wanted and what you never got? I also met a woman who couldn't have children and she said it just left her, as she approached menopause...now she is living a very fulfilled life and her and her hubby have the luxury to do whatever they want?
I am not unhappy like i used to be and when i look at my life it is ok....i can do what i want etc and explore so many avenues without really having to answer to anyone....that is a luxury that alot of people dream for prior to having children..So maybe there is aloss on all sides as well..
I think i have banged on and maybe gone off on a tangeant...but i loved your post and its good to read something and get positive vibes out of a very soul destroying journey,,,
You would love 'childfree and loving it' by Nicki Defago.....wonderful book, its like a bible and even my hubby has read it.....ummm i think after my studies i will pick it up again, it certainly gave me some grounding..
Goodluck and 'heres to finding and challenging the areas of being a woman'...not everyone woman has that luxury in life...
lots of love astridx


----------



## Purdycat

Hi foreignbody

In your post 'I let infertility define me in a negative way' struck a cord with me.  I keep thinking about other cultures where a 'barren woman' would be outcast and of no use to society, how finding a woman to procreate with and continuing the family line is the purpose of life.  My way of thinking is kind of 'back to basics' and I have often wondered then, what is my place in this world, if not to contibute towards with 'the common goal' and engage with 'normal society'?

But then, all through the ages, people who don't fit into the 'norm' have had other, greater qualities, opportunities, wealth of experience, knowledge, not so readily accessible to others, and I really like the line of thought you appear to be thinking of.  It's easy, and probably healthy for a while to dwell on the negative but we only get one life, and it can't do us much harm to explore and embrace the positive, can it?

I'm fairly new to this thread too and still working things out.  Hope pushing the pedal takes you too a fantasic place, you deserve it.

xx


----------



## munchkinmogil

Hi foreignbody,

What a fantastic and inspiring post!  I am so pleased that you have shared your thoughts and it's so refreshing to find someone who feels they have found what they may be looking for. 

I am currently going through treatment, but I am very realistic in expectations. Oddly I feel I am going through a deciding and accepting stage already! 
I am applying for my visa to migrate to Australia and am looking forward to the complete change in life, the whole adventure and trauma of the move even! Some people may think I am running away but I see it as an option for change. I feel I will be sucessful elsewhere and will embrace another culture fully -without the baggage I feel I have around my neck at the moment.

I wish you all the luck in everything you decide to do, you are virtually there!

Love Munchkinmogil xxx.


----------



## foreign body

Astrid, many thanks for the book recommendation. I will look for it in my local library.
I am glad that my message spread some positive vibes.

I don't intend to criticize people who choose to have children, somebody has got to do it.
I have just come to the liberating realization that our society needs both kinds of people, those who procreate and those who don't... and there is no justification for the stigma attached to childfree women.

I have done a lot of soul-searching when i was struggling to accept my infertility. I felt cursed by a cruel God who denied me the joys of motherhood. Now i know i was brainwashed into believing that my life would not be complete without children.
The reality is that even as a child i never felt any maternal instinct. Unlike other little girls I never played with dolls. I played football in the street, my dad bought me a 48hp motorbike when i was six and from the age of 12 i was racing bikes. The only girl in my category. I was a happy child, and whenever relatives asked me 'what do you want to do when you grow up', my answer was inevitably artist or writer'. I diid very well academically, received a Ph.D, and then...lost all my confidence when i discovered i couldn't have children. My self-esteemed plummeted. Instead of focusing on my achievements, and thriving as a young, independent woman, i started to feel sick, incomplete. A failure. I cursed my fate, i felt as if my body had let me down. Depression set in. For the following ten years i embarked on a series of doomed relationships with messed up men. I accepted jobs that were far below my ability. I just withdrew. Alone with my secret. Obsessed about something that was beyond my reach i forgot to go after what was within my reach.
Those who didn't know my secret couldn't understand why a good-looking woman with so much potential was stuck in a dead end job, dated insicure, manipulative men who didn't cherish me, and left me drained.

The real mistake was losing touch with my real self. That independent, strong-willed woman who could move mountains and achieve anything she sets her mind on. I let society and its expectations define me, instead of proudly following the steps of my childhood heroines. Those brave women I had chosen as role models when i was little had no children, but at that time it was a very irrelevant thing to me. Now i understand that they could achieve what they did because they were childfree. 

If you look at those bright college students...some of them will have families, 30% won't.  But in HK people look at the 30% who will never marry and have children as lesser women. Why aren't we celebrating the women doctors and nurses who devote their time and energy to caring for the sick? Or the artists and writers who create something we enjoy?  Or those ordinary women that contribute to society in more intangible ways but without whose work our lives would be more miserable?

I am proud of being a woman, why should i feel sorry for myself because my womanhood is expressed in different terms??

Sorry about my rambling...English is not my first language, and today i feel like someone who has finally woken up from a 10-year long nightmare and realised that it was just a bad dream. The sun is shining and i'd better go out for a walk. 
A big sisterly hug to all the great women on this forum.


----------



## flipper

What a great thread.

**, I think a gathering of women, 8 of out 9 being childless is something of a miracle in my experience. I usually find it to be the other way around!

I'm glad you've woken up from your nightmare ** and feel inspired to regain your old self. Have you had time to plan a course of action that will help you get back what you feel you've lost in the last decade? Strike while the iron is hot, you don't want to waste all that talent.....

I can relate entirely to the experience as I went through something similar last year through meeting a very happy childless woman and now in the early part of 2007, I feel like a completely liberated person, moreover a completely liberated and fulfilled _woman_. And it's great. I love it.

Hope you enjoyed the walk.

Munchkinmogil, go for it girl, I grew up down under and loved it. It's a great place to be alive so good luck with the application.

Purdycat, you're right, you do only get one life and nobody ever died wishing they'd had less fun, so grab the positive.

Astrid, you're friend's point is interesting, I wonder if my new found liberation is as a result of "menopausal transitioning" and the desire for children ebbing away.....hot flush anyone? I'm saving a fortune on heating right now.

flipper


----------



## irisheyes

Foreign Body this is a great post!!! And your English is great!!!

I am so glad that you have accepted that you are a strong woman and contributor to society without having children. I am beginning this journey now (tomorrow it is 2 yrs-cant believe it since my last iui). Last year however i was still very upset but funnily enough this year i feel much stronger-this is despite the fact that we have other probs in our life which are maybe making it less immediate.

The point about our dh/dps being a sperm donor really hit home too as i know my dh used to get upset that i only wanted him at "that time". He was very quick to realise that the fertility business now is very money oriented and this angered him. As you said also ** about women in years past who couldnt have a family simply got on with it.Maybe they didnt have all those nosey cows asking "Are you not having any children?"  as people were more private then.

I can really relate to the losing confidence bit of your post. Although i was reasonably quiet in school i really came into my own at around 18. I got on well with people, worked hard, was confident in myself and loved life.I had a bit of a set back when my brother died but a few years later met my dh and learned to live again.When we had been married for 2 yrs(off pill since before wedding-1999) i started to feel in a downward spiral which got gradually worse until 2005 when we finally did iui. Of course i managed to still attend events,be happy on the surface ,pretend all was ok but when our iui failed i fell apart.That was rock bottom and i think since then i have been gradually pulling myself up again. 

As i say it is 2 yrs on now and i have survived!!! This site has really saved my life and helped me learn that there is more to US than just a baby maker. Of course it goes without saying that that would have been the ideal for all of us but we are learning to be stronger and be US again. I only wish i lived closer to you girls and could meet regularly.Where i live here is so insular and altho i am learning to accept my infertility i wouldnt want it broadcast all over! 

Thankyou for this post **. The girls on here are great!!


----------



## Yamoona

All of your posts are keeping me going but the one area I feel very inadequate is career. I feel it would be so much easier to get over this infertility if I had a profit making one. I have a part-time Aromatherapy & Reflexology business that is not making much money so I have to work part-time as an administrator. Ideally I would love to concentrate full time on my business but money probs won't allow. So how did you all reach the stage where you are at now? All I ever wanted to do was be a mum, now I am at a loss. Think that is my main problem as I need to know where I am at.

PS You are all so clever and foreignbody your English is fantastic.


----------



## irisheyes

Yamoona- If you are running your own business then you are clever too!!! I have always wanted to own my own craft shop(art is my next subject to languages-thanks for the comlilment yamoona!!) but i know i would be HOPELESS at the business end of things so you must be doing a great job!!! Dont be so hard on yourself. "

2 years ago in work if you had read my posts you would see that i really was in a very different place. I hated coming to work (when i had previously loved teaching) and i couldnt deal with any sort of extra pressure at all. I had just taken over a promotion(which i didnt really want as all i wanted was to be a mum) and one of my 2 dept members was off longterm sick while i was stuggling to go thru mu iuis!!!  No wonder it didnt work. I fell apart and took time off (which had never done before).It is only 2 yrs on that i am more settled altho i would like to change jobs eventually-teaching too draining to do forever.

At leats you are doing a job you love or seem to love - i dont know howyou could get  help to be molre financially secure. Maybe the others could help. My salary is good but i would love to be part time so i could do other things i enjoy.Unfortunately the money issue would prevent me from doing that. We can never win can we


----------



## astrid

Hello
Yamoona you sound as if you have got a wonderful career and a peaceful and relaxing job..Alot of people would give their right arm for, i am a firm believer in alternative medicine. I always find so much peace with a therapist, who has specialised in this area. Have you ever thought of a counselling course? fantastic course, ideal for your occupation and you can do it part time...also you never know where it may lead to?.

Foriegnbody...wow english is your second language, how fantastic i am impressed. I noticed you live in Hong Kong.I went there before they handed the island back to China. We flew (not literally) into the old airport...umm an interesting expereince...

Irisheyes - the clever language bunny...i envy you...

lots of love astridxx


----------



## foreign body

Hi girls!

Yamoona,
I can relate. I too felt that my career was heading nowhere. But to be honest i didn't push it very hard because i thought I would be a mum and find fulfilment in raising a child. It's only when i realised that it would be very very difficult for me to conceive that my world fell apart. I was stuck. No career, no child.  I looked around and noticed that women in my age group had at least one thing to be proud of. I had nothing. An aborted career and a lot of resentment. That's when i decided to move to London and do an MA. I was already in my mid-30s, so it wasn't an easy thing to do, but i threw myself in it and did very well. I returned to HK and started teaching evening classes in a local community college. I am not making a lot of money (that's why i never tried IVF) but i really like my job. I also took up another position as research fellow, which means i work 10 hours a day and am now able to save enough for future plans, such as buying a house and eventually relocating to Europe.

Astrid, so you came to HK before the handover...the city has changed beyond recognition. I liked it better in the 90s, maybe because i was younger, and carefree. HK was a very special place back then, and the nightlife was so exciting i never wanted to go home...the party never seemed to stop. So, you visited it at the right time.



I want to tell all the brave women here that dealing with infertility might have undermined our confidence, and pulled the carpet under our feet. But we have survived, as Irisheyes pointed out. Now, equipped we what we know about ourselves, we can open a new path. It will be different for each one of us, but our life is in our hands, and we shouldn't let any past setbacks hold us back. We will find fulfilment. We just need to look in the right direction.


----------



## Yamoona

Once again inspirational responses ladies. DH is happy for me to continue with business as long as I keep some money coming in through part time job. It is true I have not thrown myself into it as most of the time I have been having treatment. So when I feel stronger I am going to take action and try to improve my client base. We did move last year and brought a run down Victorian house which needs full renovation and I think once we get some funds that will be a project I will enjoy. We were lucky enough to keep our old house and are now renting it out. Having a property portfolio is another one of our dreams which should get realised now!!

My step cousins grew up in HK (went to boarding school in England) and only moved back after the change over. Their father used to work for that airport you were talking about. I don't have any contact with them anymore as far too posh for me (they think Sainsbury's is low life)!!!! but they did enjoy living there and were sad when it changed.

xx


----------



## foreign body

Yamoona, 
renovating a Victorian house is a fantastic project! I renovated a flat once, and though it was much smaller scale than what you are doing, it was very exciting. I still remember waking up in the middle of the night and writing ideas down, or going to the flat after work with a pile of magazines, playing all the different solutions in my head...Even choosing water taps seemed to require a lot of creativity!

And if you enjoy the process, there is no reason why you couldn't turn it into serious job. I have a friend in Nottingham who borrowed money to buy rundown properties, he renovated them, sold them and bought bigger ones. Now this is his full-time job, as he realised that he has a very good eye, and people like his style. He used to be a construction worker, so he knows how to get good deals on building materials, and  knows a lot of guys in the trade.

Best of luck with this renovation project, and your business too. 

PS. I am sure your cousins miss HK...Between 1994 and 1997 HK was one of the most exciting places in the world...there was so much energy!


----------



## emcee

This could almost be our motto here:


> I want to tell all the brave women here that dealing with infertility might have undermined our confidence, and pulled the carpet under our feet. But we have survived, as Irisheyes pointed out. Now, equipped we what we know about ourselves, we can open a new path. It will be different for each one of us, but our life is in our hands, and we shouldn't let any past setbacks hold us back. We will find fulfilment. We just need to look in the right direction.


Thank you for that ** - and welcome to this place!

Love,
Emcee x


----------



## jomac

Hello ** and welcome. I've really enjoyed your posts they have been very inspirational! And I mean that absolutely.
Your English is absolutely fantastic!!
I live in New Zealand so I'm also a foreign body. I've never been to Hong Kong.
I look forward to getting to know you more.
lots love Joanne


----------



## jq

Hi **,

I am sorry I have been a while in replying, but have thought a lot about your post.

It is great to have such a refreshing perspective here from a woman who feels so ready to embrace the future! I am especially impressed by the fact that you are willing to stand up and say you never felt maternal anyway, but got caught up in the IF treadmill and industry anyway! Well done for stepping off and finding your true self again!

It is right about IF becoming a big business. That business is not confined to the regular medics and pharmaceutical industries. There are all sorts of quacks who want to sell their “cure.” (I do not include here the genuine so called "alternative" practitioners.

“Childless” is indeed a negative word as it emphasises some sort of lack. However, for me, the term “childfree” is no better as it suggests that children are a burden and a bit like those eBay ads that boast of a “smoke and pet free home.” I feel we should not have to define ourselves as “childless” or as “childfree.” I would prefer to be defined as a person who has achieved x, y or z! And I believe that really creative people can achieve so much whether they procreate or not!

There are many ways I empathise and agree with what you have said. I hope you will forgive me if I cannot agree with all! There is one particular train of thought you have inspired in me which I am about to post seperately. I am doing so as I would like to share my thoughts. I am not including them here as I don't think the thread of your thoughts that I am following is central to the importance of your message, which is so positive!

Thank you so much for joining us.

Much appreciation and love

Jq xxx


----------



## foreign body

JQ,
you are right in pointing out that creative people can achieve so much whether they procreate or not.
I have no intention to pit myself (or women without children) against those who do.

I am just trying to propose a different view on infertility, one that has helped me to get back on my feet.
I  am suggesting that infertility could  be experienced as a transformational process in which an individual has rejected the perceived stigma and powerlessness associated with nonfulfillment of a prescribed societal norm (reproduction) and embraced the opportunities offered by living without children. 

The concept of stigma in infertile men and women contains a self-perception of loss, role failure, and diminished esteem. The traditional framework has to be somewhat contested in order to develop a sense of self that is based on different narratives.

Luckily we don't live in a society where "barren" women are regarded as pariahs, but we still have a long way to go as many women still feel that without children they don't fit in. Infertile men suffer a lot emotionally, but they don't question their social role, because becoming a father is just one of the many expectations placed upon them by society, and not the primary one. If we need more evidence of this, let's just take a look at how many women post here compared to men, and yet men account for 50% of infertility cases. My partner too has fertility issues, but he doesn't seem too bothered by it. OK, he might never father a child, but his life never depended on it. He wasn't joking when he said that at least now he can buy a two-seater sportcar !
Men with male-factor infertility seem to be less stigmatized than infertile women, and women are more likely to experience social isolation. 

So, maybe a different perspective on fertility and infertility might also enable women to find a sense of self-worth.


----------



## Tillyp

WOW! thats all I can say really, you have definitely put everything into perspective

What an enlightening and inspirational post, thank you so much


----------



## nixnp

Dear all
i am new here and still very much struggling with it all, All i ever wanted was to have kids and that realistically wont happen.  
At the moment my head and my heart are still miles apart however both my head and heart can understand your words ( although in much different ways ) 
Your words are reinforcing and giving me support that i can believe there will be a time where i wont collapse in tears every night. 

I want to say WOW as had been said before and am really pleased for you and your lightbulb moments


Nikki


----------



## jq

Hi again **,

It is great to find a thread that poses some really interesting perspectives, so thank you again! 

I am sorry if it seemed as though I thought you were “pitting yourself” against women with children. That was certainly not my intention which was welcome your contribution. I guess the limitations of internet communication can make debate feel more confrontational than it would be perceived in a face to face discussion where so much more can be read into more subtle forms of communication. (The cyber replacements for body language are not at all so expressive!) I hope that we can overcome these limitations, as I think that this discussion is well worth having. 

Your challenge to the negative perceptions of IF is very powerful and your view that women (and indeed men) can turn this around to positively embrace opportunity is liberating. It is absolutely fantastic that you have been able to do so and find positive role models.

The enthusiastic response to your thoughts reflects the value people on this board place on reading about your ideas. I include my own response as an enthusiastic one here. As I said previously, although I have questioned some of the detail, I have found reading your thoughts and the replies very refreshing, 

Your thoughts about self esteem and social stigma, especially concerning how these affect women and men who face IF differently, reflect a wider debate about women’s position in society. This is why I commented on the issues many mothers face in modern society where the expectation can be that they are successful in several roles. The near impossibility of achieving that leads many to have low self esteem and feel a sense of failure. This may be different to the ways in which IF women experience these negative feelings, but so many women, with or without children, struggle with developing/maintaining a sense of self worth. I am sure you know that mental health issues affect women in much greater proportions than they affect men. All this leads me to totally agree with you that 

“maybe a different perspective on fertility and infertility might also enable women to find a sense of self-worth.”

I am not sure whether it was a good idea of mine to try and respond to some of your thoughts in a separate thread concerning socio-historical factors. That was an attempt to move away from the individual to the wider perspective. But, to coin a phrase from an earlier time, “the personal is political.” Still, as I did start a new thread and people have responded to it, I may also write there again.

**, you come across as a strong person and the opportunity your contribution reminds me of the powerful time in my youth when women came together to challenge the oppressions we faced. We did not always find total agreement, but our discussions helped us all move forward and had positive and practical results such as the setting up of refuges for victims of domestic violence, counselling for adults and children who had been abused, and eventually to changes in both attitudes and legislation. My responses to your fantastic contributions are meant in the same spirit of “sisterhood” which acknowledges that while we may debate finer points, we have so much in common that in exploring different aspects we learn, grow, and can make positive social and personal change.

One of the differences between then and now is that more of these discussions brought us face to face and we were able to hug one another! In the absence of that opportunity, I resort to a cyber hug!  

 Jq


----------



## emcee

Lovely ladies

There are tons of wonderful and postive things being said here in this thread, many of which I agree with as I like to think and hope I have carved out a decent life for myself knowing that I will never be a mother. But let us not forget that while there are those of us who have managed to move on in this way, and who embrace the positive aspects of our lives now and show others that there is indeed light at the end of the tunnel we have many who read and/or post here who have just come to the end or possibly the end is in sight of their journeys in their quest for parenthood, and that can be an incredibly scary place to be.

The bottom line is we all come from different places to this space - we all attempted to become mothers in some way before events or desicions occurred to change the course of our lives forever... and I am not writing this as a moderator, its coming from myself as the person who wanted to have a child with the man I love to pieces and had nothing but heartache time and time again... I can honestly say, hand on heart that although I think I have a good life now, if I could trade it all in to be a mother to my own biological child(ren) without the rollercoaster of IVF then I would do so in a flash, without a shadow of a doubt... I'm sorry if this is something that some people don't want to hear, but this is my truth and the way I am feeling this evening after a particularly intense weekend.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad I decided to walk away from the IVF bandwagon, and I feel 100% at peace about having tried it all, and indeed grateful for the oppertunities that IVF gave me. IVF gave me hope where there was none before - and that gift of hope was priceless in itself, and worth all the heartache, because once that hope is gone - thats it!

This may sound terribly old fashioned but I didn't want to have kids to fill a void in my life, or because I thought it was the socially acceptable thing to do. I didn't think I'd have kids to make things 'right' for me - having kids was something both myself and my DH felt ready to do. I don't think anyone can ever really prepare themselves for having kids - I'm not that naive - but we were determined to do the best we could do for any potential offspring.

I've been there in the past where I have felt ostracised by others for not being a parent - but it hasn't lasted for long because I will tell it like it is to anyone who is daft enough to ask intrusive questions about my lack of offspring, or to treat me in a way that could be misconstrued as inferior because I don't have kids. Heaven help anyone who broaches the subject of IVF or ectopic pregnancies or infertility who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about because I make a point of educating them there and then - no-one is safe when my mouth gets going !!!  

The past few years for me has been all about dealing with news of friends becoming grandparents - this has brought more than a few 'ouch' moments for me because again that is something I will never ever attain. So, on the whole, although things can get better and there may not be such a great big black hole of despair inside of me, there are the occasional 'bite on bum' moments that bloody hurt too!

I think I seem to have gone off on one here, but I couldn't let this thread pass me by even at this ridiculously late hour without responding.

Love to all
Emcee x


----------



## foreign body

Hi JQ!!!

"the personal is political"....I think we might indeed have travelled the same road in the past!
We were living in different places but the experiences you mentioned, your cultural references and your sensibility makes me believe we have a lot in common. 

In Italian we use the expression "compagni di strada" (travelling mates) to describe people who shared very similar political experiences...and of course in travelling the 'personal' is always imbricated.

Battling with infertility was a very private affair, and the frustration i felt was also due to the fact i had to fight it alone, success and insuccess would impact on my life (and my partner's) but on nobody else's. I was alone, concentrated on my body and its cycles, too obsessed with it to care about the world outside.   Fertility tratments were also at odd with everything i believed in, i was told that i had to become a consumer of fertility technology in order to conceive, that i was too old to be treated in a public hospital, and that because i am not married, my partner and i would have to become 'health tourists" (In HK Victorian and Confucian values still rule!) 

It's only when i stopped pursuing the idea of a child so obsessively that i could open myself up and reach out to others again. Yes, a certain nostalgia for the person i used to be definitely played a role and dispelled the myth that only through achieving a pregnancy i could bring back to life my old spirit.
There are so many other ways we can make a difference in this world.  
Being defined by our biological fertility or infertility is a pretty reductive way of thinking about our gender. We can be fertile in so many other ways....


----------



## foreign body

Hi Emcee,
I fully second what you said. Everyone is different, and what works for someone might not work for other women. We are also at different stages of acceptance, and i have a lot of respect for those who haven't called it a day yet. My heart goes out to them. I also believe that discussing alternative ways of finding fullfilment in our lives can help those who have got off the rollercoaster and now feel they don't belong anywhere. We have all one thing in common at least...we are trying to move on, embrace life and regain a sense of perspective.
Sorry i can't be more articulate, i am writing this in a rush...must be out of the door in 5 

PS. I hope you had a great time during your break!


----------



## AmandaB1971

Hi

I just wanted to dip in too and say that I dont agree ** with your statement that men aren't as affected by IF as women or that society doesn't place an expectation on them to reproduce in the same way.

Society places a massive expectation on men to reproduce and finding out they are unable to do this, shakes the very foundations of their existence.  Indeed, from being small boys they are indoctrinated to believe that they are here with the primary purpose of fathering children and when they then can't do that their manhood is brought into question and this is a very difficult thing for them to reconcile themselves with.

I think it's extremely important not to confuse their lack of dialogue about the situation with a lack of care or upset.  Men generally internalise their feelings, they retreat back into their shells and process through their hurt and anger before they are prepared to re-join the world and discuss it within a wider context.  This doesn't mean it's not bothering them, far from it, it generally means they are profoundly affected by what has gone on but they are wrestling with it alone, which is their preferred and conditioned method of response to any stressful situation but particularly one which undermines their role as alpha-male.

I'm glad you've moved on ** and that you have found fulfilment in other ways, that's to be commended, but I do agree with Emcee, it's an extremely difficult move to make and people will find their own roads to fulfilment all we can do as members on here is support them down whichever road they choose.

Take Care

Amanda x


----------



## s.a.f.

Hi Amanda,

I completely agree with what you say about men being affected by IF.

My situation is Male Factor Infertility which we have been dealing with for 19 years. The reaction of my DH is to keep our situation a secret from family and friends. 

As you can imagine, it is not easy "living a lie" - our family & friends all presume we never wanted children and everything we've been through has been in secrecy.....

S.A.F.


----------



## emcee

Hi **

Thats an interesting statement you have made there


> Being defined by our biological fertility or infertility is a pretty reductive way of thinking about our gender. We can be fertile in so many other ways....


Agreed, we can be fertile in many other ways... for example I have a very fertile imagination at the best of times! The thing I have realised over the years though is often the need to nurture is something that is present in a lot of us. I'm not saying everyone feels that way, because I have known people who don't have a nurturing or maternal/paternal bone in their body - which is fine, that is the way they are made.

But often, when you have that need to nurture it can be terribly difficult to know what to do with yourself when you realise that you're not going to get that family of your own... its ok talking about legends from the past and warriors and ancient history - society was a totally different thing then to what it is now, besides which I don't feel the need to go pick up a sword and go do battle, nor do I wish to become a nun, not in this lifetime, at any rate! 

I too think that it helps talking about different ways of embracing our lives without kids, but I try and strike a careful balance because I understand that not everyone is at the stage of acceptance that I have reached. I also accept that reaching this state of acceptance does not mean there are going to be things along the way that can leap out and bite me firmly on the bum and sting!

I care passionately about *all* of you here, no matter where anyone is at in their lives at the moment we're here for them, regardless of their circumstances... and I think we should consider that there are going to be others out there who are not ready to hear us saying 'life can be good again' just yet, and that actually, its ok to feel that way.

Regarding men and IF - men are not usually as emotionally able as us to define their feelings through verbal or written communication. They are 'fixers' and 'problem solvers' by their very nature, and often struggle with finding the right words for voicing their feelings. It doesn't mean they hurt any less though, nor does it mean their feelings should be diminished because there aren't as many male users as female who post in this particular place. We are all affected by these things in different ways - some of us are able to talk about it and others aren't - as you yourself said when you were going through your treatments it was a very private and painful time for you. It is a private and painful place to be, agreed... but some people keep that same pain within and never ever share with others, even many years later... men are very much expected to adopt the 'stiff upper lip' approach here in the UK and 'get on with it' which is very sad, because their perspective is just as valid.

The saddest thing about IF is it is often the 'hidden heartache' that many of us have to endure unbeknownst to others, as SAF has said, even their nearest and dearest have no idea. Its something that weighs heavily every single day, and has far reaching effects into every single avenue of our lives... whether we consider ourselves healed or moved on from it all, there is always something somewhere to remind all of us... we are only human after all...

I am sorry you had such a difficult time with your treatments **. I can't even begin to imagine what it was like for you and your partner - it must have been horrendous. I'm glad you have been able to embrace life to the full now though. I imagine that everything you have been through has come at great personal cost because these things are never easy are they?

Now I'm the one rushing off out of the door - speak soon!

Love
Emcee xxx


----------



## foreign body

Amanda and S.A.F.

You are right in pointing out that men are less able to verbalise and share their emotional pain, I should know because when my partner's sperm analysis revealed that its morphology was very abnormal,  his reaction was "Well, now i have one more reason to buy a Porsche". He has been making a lot of plans, from taking a year off to travel, to enrolling in an MA. I don't know which one will materialise, but i know that this is the way he deals with the problem: as long as nobody knows (as SAF's husband said) and as long as we are happy together, there is no problem. 

I wrote "Infertile men suffer a lot emotionally, but they don't question their social role, because becoming a father is just one of the many expectations placed upon them by society, and not the primary one" and maybe i need to articulate it better. 
I never intended to minimize the pain men suffer, it's just that when men get together, they are less likely to talk about children than women. They might talk for hours about sport, cars, work, politics, women etc, but don't talk about pregnancies, menstruations, breast-feeding, children clothes, their kids' behaviour etc. which means that even if they can't have children, they are not likely to feel isolated around other people because of it. 
Of course, women talk just as much about other issues, but those who have small children  or are expecting tend to touch on these topics.

Fathers can hang out with men without children and can share many more pursuits than i ever could with a group of mums.  When i go to a bar or restaurant after work, i am more likely to go with male colleagues  because women in my age group have to go home to their kids. I love hiking, and in my hiking group, there is only one mum (whose DH stays at home with the kids), the rest are men or single women.


----------



## AmandaB1971

I understand where you're coming from ** I'm just not sure I agree - Sorry.

Men may not discuss it with their mates, but they are conditioned from the day they are born to pro-create and to be bread-winners.  Nowadays they have a fairly raw deal because generally speaking women are now much more equal both professionally and socially and as a result they are less and less likely to have this "bread-winning" role, they therefore need to feel able to pro-create in order to re-inforce their own sense of self, without that they are undermined incredibly.  I am also considering buying a porsche as a response to my infertility and we already have a garage full of the fastest motorbikes in production!  I love all these toys and they keep me distracted and occupied but they dont make up for the lack of a child in my life and nor do they for my dh.

Ax


----------



## s.a.f.

I have to agree with Amanda yet again.

As I am the primary "bread-winner" my DH feels his infertility even more ..............

S.A.F.


----------



## jq

Hello again everyone!

This is certainly an active thread!

**, compadre! I am half Spanish so I think we may share some of that Latin spirit! It sounds as well that we have had some similar experiences of looking at women's lives, as well as the pain of IF and the struggle to move on. I am sorry to hear that it was a lonely journey for you. I think a lot of us here found so too, that is why this board is so precious to so many people here as a place where we can bring their sadness as well as our achievements and hopes for the future. When I went through TX there was no similar place to go and so I too was lonely, except during a brief period when I met a woman who ended up going through Tx alongside me. My long standing feminist friends all had children eventually, and all of them enjoyed the opportunity to bring up their daughters and sons in less stereotyped ways than we experienced as children. However, they did not really know how to support me. They seemed to think I should see that I had had a lucky escape from the limitations of being a mother. We stayed friends, but no longer walked the same path. Sometimes I wanted to say "Actually, I would like a little time to stop going out to work and have the rights to maternity leave we fought for and won! I would like to have the choice you have made. I would like to embrace domesticity!" 

It sounds as though in HK Tx is not easy to access. People here will relate to that as Tx is not always easy to get in the UK either, many people have no access to free treatment, or one cycle only, and the cost is more than many people can afford. In the UK people do have free contraception and pretty easy access to abortion, but IF treatment is not easily available.

Just to follow on from the new postings about men. 

Dh's best male friends do talk about their feelings together, mostly relationships with women and aging parents, problems at work. They give each other a lot of support. Over time, a lot of them have leant on each other during the break up of a relationship. They have discussed the difficulties of starting over in the dating game. They are now sharing worries about ageing parents, widowed mothers and fathers.  I don't think they would do this with strangers or on a board like this, but they do seem to feel comfortable with one another.(And of course they talk about football too!)  But all of Dh's friends have children and I know he feels left out when they talk about their children and pass photos around. (The men I work with also have family photos on their desks and bring the older kids in for work experience.) In this way his experiences are very similar to mine and those of the women who post here.

Actually when 2 of DH's colleagues who married a little late eventually had children they put on DH a lot. He became the only one who worked late when something had to be finished as they had to get home to their families. Guess their feminist partners expected no less! Dh even ended up working into our holidays to complete projects, on one holiday he took the laptop with him! It drove me mad, especially when I found out his boss was regularly coming in at 9.30 and bunking off at 3.30 to do the school run while our quality time was eroded by DH's unpaid overtime.  (Boss' wife was paid hourly as a self employed person, so I guess they were trying to maximise income and avoid paying for childcare.) I felt we were being exploited as a childless couple. Got quite cross with Dh for tolerating the situation, while he was probably using work as an escape from the IF feeelings that none of his friends understood.

DH played with his 4 sisters' children in a way that made it obvious that he would have made a better Dad than their fathers who were more of the old fashioned distant type. His sisters often said they wished their husbands were more like their brother! It made me so sad to see what he was missing. It broke my heart to come home one evening at Christmas to find him gazing out the open window at the sky, tears in his eyes in a room all dark except for 7 candles, one for each of our miscarried babies. 

His nurturing side is used in his work educating the so called "hard to reach," in his leading a sports club for children, in being a Reiki practitioner. And of course in loving me.

But don't be mistaken, he is a "real man" - he is an Aikido master, clever, fit and strong and a forceful personality. He tells jokes. He chops wood for the fire. I guess he is just strong enough to connect with his emotions too. (He is a fantastic cook too!) Aren't I lucky!

Anyway, enough of me rambling on!

Love to all,

Jq xxx


----------



## Yamoona

I am with JQ on this one. My DH works with two other males and both have young babies and more on the way. Although they all have a fantastic working relationship often DH comes home complaining that all they did was talk about their babies all day and how much it upsets him. In my experience in being more of a males mate than females, they talk alot more than you think. They are the biggest gossips and are very competitive. One ex male friend turn round to DH and spat 'at least I can have children' after DH said something he didn't like (hence being an ex friend). As a man he has faced what he feels as failure, social outcasting, dissapointment from his mother and father (not deliberate) and the need to feel he has to achieve more to make up for his failings. I have been advised by some to leave him for someone who can give me children and again he has had to face these kind of insensitive opinions, so you see they suffer just as much if not more than us because we can come on here and discuss how we feel but they would never do that. They suffer alone unless we watch over them.

x


----------



## pink panther

Yamoona,
OMG! I'm left reeling after reading the comment that this person made to your dh (no surprises that he is an ex-friend), what an utterly nasty person. It just underlines how very, very little others will ever EVER understand about the daily pain and heartbreak of IF. It makes me sad that someone like him should be allowed to have children in the first place, he certainly should have had his b*****s chopped off for saying that. I can only imagine the pain that he caused both of you after saying that and am so sorry that you had to go through this additional heartache, what an utter idiot

Sorry for the rant....
pp xx


----------



## foreign body

Yamoona,
I am really sorry to hear about your husband's experience. His ex-friend must be a very insecure man...what a viper.
Lord, protect us from ex-friends!

Yesterday I started teaching a new course, and had to ask students if they have any allergies. One of them, a married woman in her 40s, told me that she is allergic to children (!) and therefore can't be around them. Other students looked puzzled, but i knew exactly what she meant and assured her that we will not come into close contact with children or anything related to them. I think i made a new friend! At the end of the class she came to me and told me that she enjoyed my class and proudly showed me a picture of her cats. We are legions!!!!


----------



## irisheyes

Thats a great story ** - maybe this will be the start of a beautiful friendship.  My sister (who got married last Aug) actually has always said she is not very maternal and gets irritated by young kids- i think it will actuallt be her dh who wants their own kids but it would have been so great if she stuck to her ideas and we could continue our lives without this issue between us as i am sure will come to pass.


----------



## emcee

Yamoona, like the other ladies I'm appalled at the insensitivity shown to your DH, but sadly not surprised by it. I'd like to bash that chappie round the head with a huge rolling pin on your behalf!   But I can't - suffice to say I work in a male dominated environment and agree that the men are much more competitive, gossipy, *****y, etc. I remember the group of men I worked with congratulating each other each time another wife got pregnant saying how they were all 'real men' - pah! So that makes a real man does it? The naughty side of me thought 'how do you know you're the one responsible' because we all worked long hours around the clock   

** - I'm glad you struck a chord with that woman in your class! How fab is that. The beginnings of a beautiful friendship for you I hope? 

Isn't it wonderful to be able to find kindred spirits out there in the world and to chat to kindred spirits in a place like this.... ahhhh.... I've gone all mushy!

Love to all
Emcee xxx


----------



## foreign body

Just when i thought that things were getting better and that given my age, people only ask me if i have children, not if i want them...i had a massive row with my partner about his disclosing private, intimate details to his friends, who incidentally have two small children.
He went out with this couple and had the nerve to tell them that we were trying for a baby (though we have unprotected sex, i wouldn't call our romps "trying for a baby", it's more like someone buying a lottery ticket and telling his friends that he is investing money!).
Of course he failed to mention that we both have problems conceiving. The result was that when i saw this couple the other night, they went on and on about how great their kids are, and even suggested we see a fertility specialist if we don't conceive after 6 months, as it took them only two months! 
Little they know that we have been trying for years, seen countless fertility doctors and that IVF or prayers and Lourdes are our only chance.

I was really furious at my partner's lack of sensitivity...i am a private person and don't really discuss infertility problems with fertile people. I only talk about it here, and with other women in a Hong Kong support group. You and these ladies know exactly what infertility does to us, how it changes our personalities, the kind of impact it has on our lives...so i really don't need advice from those who conceived after two months of trying.

Sorry, i just need to vent my frustration at my pertner's inability to take this issue seriously. I thought it was understood that "we are not trying to concieve", we just have sex like any other couple, and if it happens fine, if it doesn't  we can live with it.


----------



## emcee

Oh ** I'm so sorry  

I imagine you must have wanted a huge hole to appear and swallow you up when your friends said this to you... no doubt they thought they were being 'helpful' to you - but it is not the sort of 'help' you want or need to hear after years of trying and heartache is it?

What is it with our menfolk? We love them, but they can have the sensitivity of a gnat... perhaps him speaking like this to others is his way of 'dealing' with things, although it is of no help to you, is it? Do you have any idea why he said this? Does he think, like my DH used to that there is a chance, a hope that things may pan out ok for you? I don't know... I am just thinking out loud here hon, I don't want you to answer my thoughts!

I understand you are a very private person, and I can understand you wanting to keep your thoughts about the struggles you have had conceiving private. When I have had others offering me hints and tips or just being downright nosey and questioning me about my non-child status I deflect the questions back at them with a simple 'I don't really feel the need to have this conversation with you' or words to that effect. Not that none of this makes what has already been said to your friends any easier for you to bear, in my clumsy way I'm simply trying to say I understand where you are coming from.

Thinking of you... with love
Emcee x


----------



## emmag

emcee said:


> When I have had others offering me hints and tips or just being downright nosey and questioning me about my non-child status I deflect the questions back at them with a simple 'I don't really feel the need to have this conversation with you' or words to that effect


I LOVE that! I wish I'd thought of that before, but I'll certainly be thinking up my own version of this sentence to use in future!

My own little version of the "DH giving away private details" happened just before our last cycle of IVF. DH was going to be starting a new job, and, as he knew the guy he'd be working for from a few years ago (when this guy was single and we were ttc, now the guy is married with 2 kids - I still hate that people have met/married/had 2 kids in a shorter time than we've been tcc, but I digress...), anyway, DH decided to tell him we were about to have a cycle of IVF. 

So... we all go out for a meal - this guy & his wife, his business partner & her DH, and us. On the way to the meal, The Guy announces that he's been discussing our situation with the other people at the office . Turns out that Business Partner has a newborn baby, conceived through IVF (1st cycle, after 2 yrs ttc). He thinks we should talk to her about it (all the time, he clearliy thinks this our 1st IVF and that all IVF works).

Anyway, (and I know I'm rambling - sorry, but all the emotions are coming back as I type this) - Business Partner decides to tell me a few things about IVF, and she clearly thinks IVF works every time too.

Then Wife and Business partner spend the whole meal taking about breast milk.



Luckily, funding for the job fell through, because I really didn't fancy any more work related outings with this sensitive little crew.


----------



## Maggie Mae

aAARRGGHHHHHH!

My friend has a child with asperger's and carries a little set of cards around with her that she got from the Autism Society. If her son creates a scene in a public place because of his condition, and someone looks full of judgement or even says something, she can hand them one of these cards that explains why this is happening and 'invites' them to be a little more open minded. 

It is time for us to have something like this, telling folk the list of things we really don't need to hear, yet again.... There is, on the infertility network, a list of helpful printable fact sheets, one of which is to give to interested friends and relatives who can't find the right thing to say. I'm considering printing it off and carrying it around with me......

The three legged race that is 'managing ttc with treatment within a relationship' is NOT EASY, and I think that it is almost vurtually impossible to be in tune with each other all the time, or even the majority of the time. I have a feeling that sometimes the guys do get an urge to share this stuff, but maybe don't always pick the right people or context. Turning it round, I know that for a while my dh felt so uncomfortable about me using this site, but now feels that it is great for me, and encourages me. When Buddhists say that everything changes, they're not kidding. 

Love to you ** and Emmag, 

MM xxxx


----------



## Bandicoot

I think male pride (and testoserone) has an awful lot to answer for.

**, I'm really sorry for you that your DH has put you in this position. I'm sure you could just stab him. They can be so lovely and supportive and then do something so utterly unfathomable, can't they? I mention male pride because is there a chance he was trying to do the macho chest-beating 'we're so fertile and we're going to have kids, too' thing if this couple with young kids were maybe getting a bit curious about your own situation? I used to find my DH could go on the defensive very easily if he felt anyone was getting close to questioning our childless state/his fertility, and he'd start saying stuff like 'yeah, we're not really into kids but you know, if it happens it's cool' and I'd think: oh, really? when did we agree that, then!!

For a long, long time he made it the rule that we talked about our IF issues with NO-ONE, not even family. We too are both very private but, even so, I think as women we deal with this by sharing our fears, hopes and feelings with well chosen confidantes. I'd gone through the first m/c without sharing it with a soul and then one of his mum's friends came out to Oz on holiday so we arranged to show her the sights and the first thing she said to me was 'I'm sorry about the miscarriage, [DH's mum] told me all about it. Do keep trying, won't you, blah blah'.  I could have killed him.

So yes, as MM says I think they do get an urge to share this stuff, but I think they can have a habit of picking and choosing just what they share (and not telling us when they do) and are often not very clever about who they share it with. However, again along with MM (and despite my griping just now) my DH has really changed over time and is much more supportive now. I hope your DH will learn from what he has just put you through, **.

Emmag, that sounds like the meal from hell. You probably could have killed the whole lot of them, starting with your DH and moving swiftly on to the opinionated couple who couldn't wait to shove all their helpful advice down your throat. We could sure all do with carrying some of those cards MM mentioned...

And talking of times when we could do with 'sensitive' cards to hand out, can I just borrow you for a couple more minutes and tell you what happened when the guy who helps with our garden (remember this is Oz and there are lots of poisoness things out there!) said to me? Turns out he'd seen me going for a blood test and he asks me why I went for one. (Ozzies are pretty straight talking and think nothing of asking you anything, from how much your house is worth to, well, why you've been for a blood test.) Well I'm at the stage where I'm fed up of lying to save embarrassment so I just give it to him straight. "Well, Adrian, I keep miscarrying so I'm having blood tests to see if they can work out why." I needn't have worried about him being embarrassed about asking. He just leans on his spade and says: "How old are you now - 38? Well you're not getting any younger so you need to hurry up. Be good to have had a little brood by now."      

Where can I get that factsheet, MM?  My love and sympathy, especially to **.

B xxx


----------



## Maggie Mae

B,

Try this link 
http://www.infertilitynetworkuk.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=80

if that doesn't work, go to www.infertilitynetworkuk.com and select fact sheets.

Very useful!

MM xxx


----------



## foreign body

Thanks to all of you for sharing your stories! It seems that our DH's faux pas are the norm rather than the exception.
Emcee, I am sure you were happy when the funding fell through...having the whole office discuss fertility treatments is the worst scenario one can imagine.

Bandicoot, i have always wanted a garden but in HK not even CEOs can afford one...your story made me feel grateful i don't have to hire someone to cut grass and prune trees...knowing how nosey HK people can be, i would dread the prospect of dealing with a HK gardener! 
Having the HK government "pro-family" ads on tv everyday is horrible enough...they show a stereotypical  "happy family" with two kids, and the message is something like "two is good, three is great". They are actually panicking because the fertility rate keeps declining, and now is somewhere around 0.6 per woman... 

MM, thanks for the link. I'll check it out!

My partner is a very chatty person, I am not. It might have something to do with the fact that he is North-American and I am European, so cultural differences play a role too. My friends value that fact that I can keep a secret, hate gossips and choose my confidantes very carefully. My partner feels the need to share everything with everybody, even people who are just acquaintances. I had told him before that i didn't want him to discuss our fertility issues, actually he put me in a very difficult position when i suffered a chemical pregnancy a while ago. Understandably I was very sad, just wanted to hide in my cave,  and didn't feel like going to a party with him. He went alone and guess what, he told his friends that i thought i was pregnant but actually i wasn't. Again having a positive test followed by a negative one two days later is not exactly a sign of delusion, but he had trouble understanding what had happened to us and preferred to make a joke out of it.

I know he can't control himself, he has this desperate need to talk about stuff that i prefer to keep private. I don't know if i am being over-sensitive, but as you said, we have been through a lot, and certainly don't need advice from those who know so little about infertility or think that IVF is the solution to every problem. Even IVF using a donor's eggs is no guarantee of success. So i really feel that  only those who have been struggling like us know what to say. When somebody asks me if i have children, I usually say "No" and change subject. I have become quite good at that. In the past people would ask me if i wanted children, and that was trickier, because saying a blunt "no" would inevitably lead to a discussion on having vs not having children. I used to say:God willing,or Inshallah, to make it clear that it was not entirely in my control...and then try to change subject!

Now this couple knows that we are trying, and pretty soon other people will start to ask us "how is the baby-making going?"...damn, it took me so long to come to this point  where i am ready to move on and not let infertility rule my life...and then bang, another unexpected setback... the road to freedom is a pretty long, bumpy and winding one!.


----------



## emcee

You're right ** it is indeed a long and bumpy one... we're all travelling alongside you in agreement of that honey!

Love
Emcee x


----------



## jomac

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the discussion on this thread!
I have felt woefully inadequate to respond at times. I am impressed by the clear thinking expressed as well as the robust discussion at times but also by the ability of everyone to take each others hand and to walk this path.
I am trying to write an essay for a varsity paper - your collective brains would do a much better job than mine at the moment!!

Lots love
Joanne


----------



## jq

Hi all, **, Bandicoot and Emmag especially,

Sorry I am a little late here, I have been away to Spain - ready and prepared to cope with potential situations like this, having been hit by them so many times before! (I will post about it later.)

I am so sorry to hear about the difficult times your "friends" put you through and I hope that by now you have managed to discuss and agree with your partners how to manage things more easily.

I have little to add to the good ideas here, except to endorse Emcee's assertive approach. I think being assertive, not aggressive, makes me feel better and more in control. I also love MM's idea about cards to hand out - that way you don't need to struggle with words when you have just been taken aback, also sometimes you could say "This is something I find difficult to discuss, so perhaps we could talk about something else now, but if you could read this later it might help you to understand. Thank you." MM is brilliant at devising coping strategies isn't she?!

Love

Jq xxx


----------

