# implantation failure after twice transferring 2 perfect blastocycts



## anna the third

We have good embryo quality, reasonable nos of eggs, excellent fertilisation and dividing. Our issue is apparently implantation. 

I've had most of the tests for clotting, anti immune issues etc. and am just wondering where to go from here. Our problem is one that IVF cannot solve obviously, as with many couples but I'm suddenly starting to wonder why we're spending tens of thousands of pounds in this way. 

All we have really learned is that we have fert rates of 100% consistently and no issues with early embryonic dev't.  

Any thoughts anyone?


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## Hal

Anna - you not had any biochemical pg? Are your tubes OK? I understand if tubes are blocked they can leak toxic fluid back into the uterus which interferes with implantation. Have you been advised to take aspirin or steroids? Has a biopsy of your womb been taken?

I have had many tx. Like you - good response to tx, fertilisation etc. However, i did have a couple of biochemical pg. I had slightly raised anticoagulant levels and in the later tx took aspirin. I seem to recall that this coincided with the 1st biochemical pg (4th ivf). I found it v difficult to know when to stop when the results were so good. This was my last tx, against cons advice and for some reason so far it has worked. I did the last tx more from the point of view of having a 'last go' and being bale to psychologically move on. I was already following up DE treatment abroad during the tx. Maybe there is something on the psychology of all this. I had absolutely no expectations which was the same as my first pg - natural conception just before 1st iui. I don't know what could help with this - short term fucused counselling such as cognitive behavioural thereapy??


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## anna the third

hi Hal, that's very interesting indeed, thank you. and many congratulations to you! you msut be very excited. 

Tubes etc fine, no issues save not pregnant! I agree that the advice of "relax" while being inconclusive medically does seem to work - but i fear it helps girls with ovulation issues, which i don't have......

I am now thinking about ditching IVF and trying naturally well with hyperstimulation and timing that is. 

my issue seems to be egg quality - and for that i need to try offer for implantation as many eggs as possible and not jsut the IVF max of2....


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## christina07

anna- i am not really well up on all the science of ivf as ive only ever had icsi twice which was quite straight forward, but i was thinking when i read your post seen as though your spending a fortune anyway have you thought of going abroad for treatment where they can transfer more emryos so you have a better chance of success, really hope you have better luck next time and all of your dreams come true

              take care christina x


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## anna the third

Christina, thanks and having followed your profile, many many congratulations on your pregnancy. that is wonderful news. 

yes re abroad, it does make perfect sense. but i am starting to think further and may even be deciding that ivf helps a lot of people brilliantly but what it actually does, we don't need and what we need it to do, it can't!  so why do it?  that's where i am at....


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## Hal

Anna - you not over 40? Over 40s can have 3 put back. I have had 3 embryos/blasts put back each time (except first ivf). Have you had blood pg tests after each tx rather than just relying on hpt? Is it possible that biochemical pg not picked up by lack of blood test


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## anna the third

the thing is that we are putting back vg blasts each time and the issue is implanting of query poor eggs which IVF isnt going to help with. 

i'm testing with >10 sensitivity for hcg - nothing at all... pretty sure no biochem accoridngly...


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## siheilwli

I actually was looking at the boards the other day for a group of women who've never ever experienced a bfp in any way. I don't think that the issue is addressed much, in terms of tests and investigations.  I know I bleed early after ovulation / EC, and have often worried that this might be the problem, or immunes etc but haven't venture to do any tests yet. 


Were you offered any steroids etc?
Cat
x


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## christina07

ahh right im with you, i do fully understand what you mean but im sorry i dont know enough to advise you, i have read in magazines about a new treatment that dosent use any drugs but cant even remember the name of it, im sure you have already heard about it, and im not even sure this would be any more succesful, from what i can gather its just the implantation that dosent seem to be happening for you, or maybe you,ve just been damn right unlucky and next time it will, i really hope so.


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## anna the third

thansk Christina, 

Cat, yes i've had the whole shooting match - clexane, prednisolone, etc


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## siheilwli

What about seeing what the thinking is with assisted hatching on 2 or 3 day embies? I know blasts are considered to be more successful though. I'm just wondering as the assisted hatching is supposed to help with the implantation. I know my clinic won't AH blasts as they're too fragile by then.  Also with older eggs ,and ones that have been frozen, the zona can be a bit tougher. 

Sorry I can't help more, I'm searching for the same kind of answers - I do wish sometimes that someone would monitor all my hormone levels in the 2ww to see what happens though.


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## anna the third

thanks and yes you're quite right - we had AH on all of the day 3 eggs then replaced the blastocysts.


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## siheilwli

I didn't even know you could do that!


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## allison kate

Hi Anna

I wanted to reply to your post as you sound very similar to me(!).  I have always had grade 1 blasts or day 3 embies and they have never stuck when I've had a fresh transfer, however I have managed to get pg twice with frozen embies.  Until now the dr's have always told me 'it's my age' but (while not denying age has an added factor) I simply can't believe this is only the problem.

I am now with a new gynae and also seeing a fertility naturopath in London and both believe that for some woman their bodies simply can't deal with 'doing' pg after having to go through the IVF drug regime, as their hormones are already in overdrive.  They are both suggesting that I either try naturally (won't go into full details here) or do a natural IVF without drugs.

I am in the process of having some tests done to see if there's another factor why I have implantation failure and they are DQ Alpha tests on DH and I (to see if we're too genetically close), DNA fragmentation test on DH's swimmers, and I have had CD19 and CD56 blood tests redone (have had full immune panel done previously).  I have also just been diagnoised with hypothyroidism which plays a huge part in fertility (my TSH levels are around 2.5, which is normal but I had a TRH test done which looks at the thyroid in action and is the only way you can really tell if there is a problem, if your TSH looks normal).  Perhaps these are things you can look at, if you haven't already.

I do sympathise with you as I know how frustrating it is when you are told your embies/blasts are perfect and you end up with a BFN. As I said to my naturopath, I truly feel as though I am a fertile woman but there is just one piece of the jigsaw missing which is stopping my babies implanting or developing properly.  He thinks a huge part of it is hormonal (long, heavy, clotty AF), which we are dealing with through herbal tonics, and that the key to it is my thyroid.

I really hope you can find some answers to this.  If you decide to go for another IVF, perhaps you can look at having all your embies frozen on day 3 and then a FET the month after, when your body has recovered from the drugs.

Wishing you the very best of luck
Allison x


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## anna the third

AK, I'm so sorry to read your profile. I do feel for you and thank you so much for trying to help me. sweet girl. 

I think there is a lot in what you say - it is all so unnatural (and this from someone who reaches for drugs at the slightest hint and is a bit of a hypochondriac!). i'm amazed our bodies haven't shut down completlely. 

For me, having had many clotting etc tests, I think there is probably an issue with egg quality - only 1/5 i think is "good" at my age. so I need to find that one each time! I am not convinced IVF "finds" it as the embryology cannot look at chromosomes. That's the problem really with older eggs. IVF doesn't necessarily solve our issues. 

You raised thyroid (and I must say I really appreciated your note as i could see you were really trying to share your experiences with me and help me. )  I have the opposite - TSH of around 0.5. per the UK guidelines that is ok but of course those guidelines themselves may be flawed or pertain to a generic population and not you or me! (I think TSH is meant to be between 0.3 and 4.2 apparently.) I do take your point that probably deeper tests need to be done. (and also that many drs don't have a clue on thyroid!)

The irony is that my egg quality issues wil be solved i am sure in eg 5 and definitely10 years' time. Cynically, there is enough money in the industry for the research to happen. 

Hence freezing as much as possible day 3 is not a bad idea for us perhaps.....


Good luck with your treatment - at my clinic 75% or those who get pg deliver so you are a LONG WAY there. You know you CAN get pg. (and at least you have issues to sort out; i actually see that as a huge positive in this IF world.


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## allison kate

Hi Anne

thank you for your lovely reply.  Yes I know what you mean about having 'something' to sort out!  I was actually so relieved when I was told I have hyopthyroid as I have been dismissed by so many dr's about this, even though I KNEW there was something wrong.  To get this sorted out for 'quality of life', let alone pg is a huge step in feeing better.

I would REALLY encourage you to have your thyroid rechecked.  Dr Beer (and many other fertility specialists) say your thyroid should be between 1-2 in order for a pg to occur ( or have a chance to survive).  You are clearly under this and that can cause as much of a problem as a high level.  If your thyroid is incorrect then it can affect the whole of your reproductive system, including egg quality.  You are clearly producing good eggs if they can take them to blasts each time (maybe some are cromosomally abnormal but I DON'T believe they all would be...I think this is a good excuse and easy answer from the dr's, for women of our age, when they don't actually know the real answer).

I totally agree with you to go as natually as possible to give your body a chance.  

Hope you can get some answers!!

Allison x


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## Bright Eyes

I can only echo your frustrations. I have never even got close to a BFP either.. naturally or with tx. We have produced good quality ebryos that divide well and on the outside look great. I just get told by the Consutant that it is age and although they look good there is no telling what is inside ! Having clotting and NK done before next attempt as well as getting on with vits, accupuntre, herbs etc etc. You just wish someone could give you an answer as to why they don;t stick as then you'd be able to deal with it.
Bright Eyes


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## lyndalou

Ladies  Im 40 in august and just had a BFP. We were unexplained and had loads of tests done. Each transfer was grade 1
          embies/blasts but yet still kept getting BFN. Starting to think it would never happen but hey here we are. Dont give
          up ladies I really do beleive its just a lottery and your time Will come x


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## anna the third

well done Lynda!  how exciting, many many congratulations!

there's a slight difference though in that your response is much better than mine - you must have a higher AMH - and therefore you need only do one EC etc for lots of blastocysts. I only get 2 each time and so have to redo the whole process after 3 months. I am primarily concerned with the time wasted not the money or energy though those are major considerations too. I don't see what IVF is doing for me that, for exmaple, natural with stimms, wouldn't do equally well. 

having said that, delighted to read your success!  )))


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