# Don't know which way to turn, help needed



## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Dd has been home for 4 months now and after a brief honeymoon period began to display controlling and defiant behaviours. 4 months on things continue to escalate despite our best attempts to help her.... She's hurt me many times although iis loving and gentle to dh, I understand why this is but it doesn't make it any easier to cope with. If she can't get to me when she's angry she will hurt herself, biting and hair pulling mainly.
Anyway today she had a massive tantrum leaving a supermarket, this I can cope with, I stay calm and wait til she stops. After half an hour of sitting on the ground trying to stop her hurting herself while avoiding her teeth and hands myself she began to scream 'get off me you're hurting me I'm not going home with you ever' 
A few people stopped for a stare obviously and I was thinking people are going to think I'm really hurting her  soon....
I managed to get her into the car and tried to wait it out til she decided to get in the seat, 20 mins later it was obvious she wasn't calming down anytime soon so I had to force ably put her in, not easy when you've got a small person who is like a feral cat  

Having calmed down slightly now she is asleep upstairs and sobbing down phone to dh we've decided I need to stop taking her out in public until things are more stable as its easier to deal with at home?!
We were promised camhs and PAS at 2nd review... Camhs turned down the referral and no sign of PAS...

I appreciate that parenting an adopted child is very different and I try sooo hard to avoid confrontation with her but sometimes I feel she spends all day goading me until I react negatively to her behaviour. Also have ds to consider, he's been fantastic since she moved in but he too is showing signs of frustration with the situation.

After finally calming down this morning we sat down for a cuddle, she then reached up to my face dug her nails in refusing to let go. I know she doesn't really hate me and that she likes living with us and I know she's only a little girl but I feel very much on the edge today.

Sorry for rambling on, will try to ring her elusive sw when I'm calmer  

Xxx


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## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

I have had the help me she's hurting me on many occasion, I have just learnt to grow a very thick skin and sod what people think. We've even had him out in the back garden when the door has been wide open yelling, help me they want let me in, even one day in the pouring rain yelling how we'd locked him out in the rain!!! I am so surprised we have never had the police or SS knocking on our door.

All I can say is he has eventually stopped doing that, that was mainly in the early days, although he can still say we are hurting him but that us normally just to us now. Very easy for me to say try and keep calm, because nine times out of ten I don't and end up getting suckered in to where he wants me.

The early days are so hard and especially with you having another child x


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## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

Should have said, chase up PAS, go to your Dr and get them to badger CAMHS, we refused to put in for our AO until they had funded some therapeutic support for us. Don't let up until you get the help you need.


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi

So sorry you are going through such a tough time with your LO.  How old is she?

It sounds as though she has a lot of anger and confusion going on inside and the only way she can show this is by acting out and, Yes, unfortunately it is nearly always directed at the Mother figure.  It is hard work and you need support from the adoption team.  Where is your SW in all this?  Only 4 months in I wouldn't have thought you'd have the AO yet so should still be having SW input, they are the ones that should be supporting you.  PAS is for after the AO when you no longer have a SW assigned to you BUT PLEASE DO NOT put in for the AO until you have in writing a very good support plan.  They will probably be reluctant at this stage to go for camhs, we were told my 7 year old was too young and I've had to really fight for this, but you need to keep on at SW and keep a diary if you can of the incidents so you have evidence to look back at.  It may also help you to see if there are certain triggers which you can then try to avoid.

You have a traumatised LO who will have suffered a number of losses at least and goodness knows what else.  She is suffering and needs help in dealing with her feelings, keep fighting for her, she needs you to do this because no one else will.

  
OT x


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## wynnster (Jun 6, 2003)

it is so so hard in the early days, 4 months in is really still early for you and for her. 

My DD is the same age I think as yours, but has been home 18 months, she was angry and aggressive in the first few months, it felt like it went on forever!  But for her it was certainly an attention thing, anything to get me and make me as angry at her as she felt to me..... what worked was me putting her infront of me (whilst holding down her arms) and saying in her face 'Mummy does not like it when you hit' and then walk away, she would go into meltdown for a few minutes and then go quiet, I would then go and ask her if she wanted a hug and we would sit and hug, talk about what had happened etc for ages afterwards and she would say a real meaningful 'sorry'. 

Probably goes against all the attachment building i'd read, but it worked for us.  She did not get my attention when she was being negative, but had me all to herself  however much she wanted when she was being kind. 

I couldn't have had your patience in the supermarket    I would have carried her out kicking and screaming   

Is she still having a nap in the day?  My dd can go with or without now, but it really notices in her behaviour when she hasn't had a sleep. 

Take care of yourself, make sure you get enough time to yourself & remember, you're doing a great job


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## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

CrazySpaniel, I really do sympathise, it's such a hard place to be.  As others have said, you're relatively early in.  At 4-5 months in with Wyxling we would spend hours every day fighting me, and as with your daughter, if she couldn't get to me she'd hurt herself.  Sometimes she'd start quite calm, but being very physical, and once I stopped her from hurting me she'd absolutely rage.  Sometimes she'd laugh while she was being very violent, she'd grab hold of my hair which is very long, and throw her whole weight against it singing "row the boat" and ripped chunks out on a regular basis, and she'd laugh and say it was fun.  We were told that this isn't something that she actually finds funny, just that children of this age in a high state of arousal/agitation often misrepresent and misrecognise emotions, so a child laughing isn't a worrying thing, that's not what they're really feeling.  It's completely different to having a child in a tantrum, a whole different world.  As soon as we got over it, she'd do something I had to stop her doing, and we'd be back where we started again.  It was exhausting, and upsetting, and frankly terrifying at times.  

I do think that you need to approach it from an attachment point of view, not a discipline point of view.  I think it's sometimes easy to confuse staying calm and not using consequences with giving up control.  Wyxling fought and does fight horrendously for control, and the only way we can deal with it is simply not to engage at that level.  My husband really struggles with this.  We are the adults and we are in control.  We pick our battles, and try to limit what we say that's negative, but I decide what we do, and where.  I don't get stern about it, and very rarely use consequences unless it's very logical safety related, e.g. if you run off and won't come back, Mummy will have to use reigns to keep you safe from getting squished by cars.  Most things can be either ignored, or corrected without saying anything, either by moving Wyxling, or things, or turning the lights back off again next time I go past.  

The thing that works the most is to not let her behaviour control.  Waiting her out is an absolute no.  If she won't put her clothes on when we get up in the morning, fine, I might say something like ooh brrr, it's really cold, you'll freeze, but I just pick her clothes up take them downstairs, and carry on as normal.  I try once more to put them on on the doorstep on the way out, and if she still won't put them on I'll tell her it's cold out, and she'll want them on, but I don't make her, then we just go out, in whatever she's wearing.  I've always got spare socks if needed, a towel, and once we're outside she'll get upset and cold and I'll take care of her and make a fuss of how cold her fingers are, get her dressed and we're on our way.  If she kicks off and won't go where I want her to, I just pick her up.  If she fights me I'll rock her, and hold her hands and legs if I have to, but we'll carrying on going where we were going, and when we get there we'll sit down and sort it out.  I try to avoid absolutely overwhelming her, but sometimes it's just been necessary.  We had lots of problems with changing, and like you, with going into buggies and car seats.

I wouldn't let it stop you going out, or you will go stir crazy, and given it sounds like your daughter is in such emotional turmoil she will probably struggle with being stuck in the house.  Perhaps pick your places, parks, wellies and puddles, soft play and go round with her, anything you can do that's physical, out the house, lets off steam, and which she enjoys doing with you will almost certainly help.

One of the things that we were told by a child psychiatrist fairly early on when I said Wyxling was so often angry, is that kids with attachment issues in this age aren't predominantly angry, they're scared, but often the only way they can react to this is to fight.  We were also told that if they're behaving like this, they believe very firmly that they're bad, and that in dealing with the behaviour, we have to avoid saying anything to reinforce that.  E.g. if Wyxling starts to hit me, I normally hold her at arms length and say no, we don't hit people, but then straight away I'll hold her to me, even if she fights more.  I keep her with me until she's completely raged herself out, no conversations, just very reassuring noises/singing/rocking (and yes, it is very hard rocking 35 + pounds of fighting toddler, so I've got some good muscles now).  She also screams I'm hurting her.  I don't get into a discussion, but one of the reassuring things I always say is Mummy won't hurt her, and Mummy won't let anyone hurt her, she's our wonderful baby, Mummy is her when she's scared.  When she's calmed (really calmed, sometimes like your l/o she will seem to have calmed but will instantly hurt again and that almost always mean her agitation/arousal levels are still very high and we go back through the whole cycle again) I hold her as long as she'll let me, she's often very upset then.  Again, good advice we were given was that at this time, after the rage has finished and they are just upset, they are emotionally just a little baby, and that's when attachment, real attachment, forms, if you can be there and care for her.  It's not the time for recrimination/telling off etc.  After she's stopped being upset, then we sit and talk, and we just do a very quick, we don't hurt people, then straight on to repair (from her point of view), which is we know how good she is at being gentle, see you stroking her hair, maybe get her to play games with gentle fingers pretending to be rain drops and praise her for gentleness.  We were told that encouraging her to think of "making up" for something she's done rather than just trying to make her say sorry (and good luck with that one if she's anything like Wyxling!) we teach children that it's good to be gentle instead of hurting people, and praise them for doing it, and that this can help to teach the beginnings of empathy.  

I'm just throwing ideas out really because these are all things that worked for us, but we were lucky (and I was very persistent) to get some good professional help.

Regarding support now, you need support as a family, and not just from Social Services.  I don't know what would be available to you, but we were referred to children's psychology at a local hospital, not CAMHS, and they were brilliant.  They helped us with ways of dealing with problems, and then referred us on to a local Theraplay service, which has been brilliant, and also provides me with some support as well as my daughter.  At this age the only real direct help they can give is play therapy, and despite my massive scepticism about it, it's been and continues to be fantastic.  I would insist on a meeting straight away with your SW, your child's SW, and ask them what they can do now to support the placement.  People can be very dismissive with toddlers, because they're all difficult to a degree, and it's annoying.  I've had two now, and one throws some cracking tantrums when he doesn't get his own way, but it's nothing at all like Wyxling's behaviour and problems.  Wyxling conversely is now acting more and more like a "normal" toddler, and I find the occasional tantrum over absolutely nothing quite reassuring, because this isn't what we had for most of the time she was with us.

Sorry for a very rambly and disorganised stream of ideas, I'm a bit pushed for time at the PC tonight, but I didn't want to read and run because I now how hard this can be.  I will drop you a pm, and if you want to chat at any point please do get in contact.  It's an incredibly lonely and hard place to be, and very scary.  

All the best,

Wyxie xx


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks so much for the replies everyone, your support is invaluable  

DD is nearly 3 and sleeps for 1.5 hrs early afternoon and usually 12 hours overnight so sleep deprived she is not! 

Picking her up and walking far is difficult to say the least, she knows every trick in the book to wriggle away, besides which close physical contact can be v painful for me...

Did manage to speak to her sw today and have been promised a visit from a play therapist ASAP so I feel more positive now.

OT, will certainly not be applying for AO until LA provide the support they've promised.

Cs xx


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## AoC (Oct 28, 2008)

What Wyxie said (I think I'm turning into a fan club....  )

We had the same, at pretty much the same stage of placement, and it's horribly hard.  First of all, I'll tell you that most of this has stopped now (it comes back a bit if he's unsettled by something) and we're having a BLAST having a lovely time as a family.    Hang on in there.

Mostly what worked for us was time, being outdoors as much as possible, in all weathers, sticker reward charts to really build up self-esteem in a visual way, and learning to duck, divert, distract or grab a cushion.  I am VERY good at ducking now.  

Get your shopping delivered, or ask a friend to help you with it.  Call in your support network favours, because now is when you need them.  Do please still go out, but hit parks, enclosed playgrounds etc - we have a lovely local lane that's enclosed by hedge banks and hedges, so is perfectly safe, but is a wonderland of puddles, stones, twigs, plants.... hide-and-seek, chase, races...  

When we weren't handling it very well, Bug definitely got wound up that he was 'bad', and we had to work on that a lot to get to a better place.  With him, he was really well attached, but he was so scared that he'd have to 'go back' or that things would all change again.  Add in to this terrible twos and grieving, and it was a messy mix.

We got a lot of help from our SW, and during this time, before we got onto a good footing, I was on the phone to her in tears, using the precise words, "I'm not coping and I need help," at least twice, and once I got put through to head office and was utterly distraut, but they talked me through it brilliantly.  All the time I had in my head, "I'm failing and wrecking this lovely child and they're going to take him away."  When I told my SW that, ages later, she was utterly shocked and swore we were nowhere near disruption, but that's what I was afraid of.  Don't be afraid of saying you need help, as directly as you can, so it gets through.  Bugs SW was useless.  "Oh you poor thing.  I'm sure it will get better."

Our HV was also good, was a great cheerleader and offered to put us in touch with other services.  In your case I'd contact SW, GP and HV and let each one know you're talking to the other.  

Our good dialogue with Bug was along the lines of you're a really good boy, and I love you lots.  We're going to be your mummy and daddy forever and ever, whatever happens.  But sometimes you get big feelings in your tummy and you don't know how to handle them, and they make you angry and cross.  I can help you....  

We did things like "the angry stomp" together to get the bad feelings out, which helped.  But mostly it was lots of outdoor exercise, anything that gave completely helpless belly laughs (this has the same effect as raging in getting intense feelings out and lowering the level of stress hormones , and sticker charts for a few weeks to SHOW him he was a brilliantly good boy.  

Which he is.  

(I love the making up idea, Wyxie!)

Hang on in there.  It's going to get better.  In fact, it's going to get wonderful.  

Wtih walking, we got one of those little rucksacks with the reins - his is a dinosaur one, but you can get ladybirds etc.  He loved it so much he didn't mind the reins, and then he got over the walking difficulty within a month or twol.  But initially we came back from lots of walks with him in a fireman's lift...


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to reply AoC  

We have post adoption support in place now    so feel much more positive and much less abandoned I suppose!

We've been told it will be a long road but before it felt like groping around in the dark now there's light at the end of the tunnel....


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## AoC (Oct 28, 2008)

Great news, Crazy, I'm so glad.  I guess it's best to be prepared for a long road, but I do have to say that things turned around for us pretty quickly, once we knew a) he loved us and it was going to be okay and b) what tips and tricks to use.

Good luck, and remember we're here for you!


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks for the virtual support   it's much appreciated


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## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

Really glad to hear you're getting some help.  I think for me even though we didn't see quick improvements all the time, knowing that we had professional support and that we were following their advice, made us feel much more secure in what we were doing.  Also it helped in some ways to be told that things would take time to improve.  I think to start with we were looking for the "right answer" which would instantly make things better, and that therefore we were doing things wrong if they weren't getting any better straight away.  We were told that problems routed in attachment can take a while to go completely, and that things improve, and there will also be steps backwards at times - the bit I find hardest - but they get less intense and less often.

I hope things start to go in the right direction now.  

Big hugs,

Wyxie xx


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

You've summed up pretty much how I'm feeling now Wyxie  
Looking forward to starting theraplay...! ( not something I ever thought I'd be saying!)


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