# First negative with donor eggs after seven OE rounds - despondent



## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

We've been doing this for seven years. Noone knows what's wrong with me. I'm a high responder - we get lots of eggs and good quality day three embryos but very poor blastocyst conversion. I'd finally got my head around using donor eggs and was feeling optimistic that we were close to having our much longed for children.

I had 2xAA blasts from a 27yr old proven donor and my husband's sperm transferred - got my BFN this morning. 

We have four more blasts (2xAB and 2xBB) in the freezer but I'm feeling completely lost. The chances seemed so high. What if whatever unknown thing is f*cking up my eggs is f*cking up my ability to have children full stop?

Please help. I'm so scared for the future.


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## Pognut (Apr 8, 2012)

Hi HappyAmbler,

So sorry. It's so hard when it doesn't work with DE. We had something similar happen, and it felt so cruel that we were in the 30/50-odd% of people for whom DE didn't work when everything looked so perfect with the cycle. You ARE close to having your children, you just need to keep going, but right now, you don't need to think about that unless it helps to do so, you need time to grieve and recover from the cycle and from the trauma. There are plenty of people on here for whom DE didn't work first time but did work subsequently, and you've got 4 frozen embryos, which is fantastic. It hurts like hell, I know, but it's not the end of the road. 

I guess if you've been at ARGC and Serum that you've had a lot of investigations done? Is there anything else that might help put your mind at rest? I did the Coventry womb biopsy with Siobhan Quenby and Jan Brosens (as I was a lot more convinced by their approach to immunes than I was by ARGC's after 2 cycles with them). Happy to talk about that if you'd like to.  But you have more chances in the bank, and every fertility consultant I've spoken to has said it's perseverance that will get us there - god knows you've already shown you have that, looking at your signature line. Your chances are good, and when you're ready, those 4 frozen embryos will be waiting. Take care of yourself. xx


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## Stacey10 (Jun 7, 2013)

Have you also looked into the era testing, your embryos may be being transferred on the wrong day. Other than that, just all the immune testing. Unfortunately the average go for de is 3 tries also.


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Hi *Pognut*

Thank you so so much for your reply - talking to people who understand is a lifeline. I'm sorry you've been through this too.

I went through all the immune stuff at ARGC and spent £££ on Chicago tests, intralipids and IVIG. Now I'm at Serum (who have been brilliant) I still do intralipids and prednisolone just in case - they're pragmatic and don't keep making me repeat the Chicago test all the bloody time!!

I will Google the Coventry womb biopsy. I'm also going to speak to my consultant about endometrial receptivity. And I'm wondering if it might be worth downregulating before starting the FET medication to prevent any interference from my own wonky hormones. Any other suggestions gratefully received!! xx


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Sorry *Stacey* - crossed posts! Yes, I'm going to ask about ERA.

I know it wasn't a given that DE would work first time - it's just expectations were high once we'd taken my sh*tty eggs out of the equation. I thought the universe might finally give us a f*cking break!!


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi HappyAmbler,

Sorry you’ve had a hard time. Have you considered doing double donor? I had 5 OE transfers followed by 4 DE transfers before getting to 19 weeks pregnant so far this time. It did include several MCs with the OE transfers and the first 2 DE transfers didn’t go well, so we moved onto DD and even that took a couple of goes before we were successful (first DD transfer was a chemical pregnancy) - what I mean is it sometimes takes a while! 

I also had extra immune testing & treatment (started off with hydroxychloroquine before this transfer, but stopped once in early pregnancy as it seemed too strong for me, hair fell out & my immune system seemed overly lowered, but who knows maybe that helped too, along with the steroids etc). I’ve had 4 of my transfers with Serum too. I’m not quite there yet, getting there, but got a lot further so far this time and I hope that gives you some hope.

Strawberry 🍓


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## K jade (Aug 11, 2013)

Weve spoken before and im so sorry for your bfn 

Its awful when you make the move to donor and still it fails. 
Please don't lose hope, u have your frosties waiting 4 u. 

U are with penny? I hope u cam speak with her soon for a follow up. 
My successful cycle consisted of 10mg steroids, regular intralipids-!like every 3 weeks-, aspirin, 40mg clex and REALLY IMPORTANT empty bladder transfer. 
Has she suggested neupogen? A fair few on here have found that to be the missing link. 
I had some immune issues. Slightly raised NKs, slightly raised tnfa and 2 minor clotting impairments. 
Looking around FF it seems lots of ladies who have the Chicagos have these exact same issues identified making me wander just how significant my results are. 

In the end like strawberry i had success with DD, but it took years of hell to get here. 

Take time to recover and keep us posted regarding outcome of your follow up xx


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## Tincancat (Mar 19, 2012)

It could well be a sperm problem.  So further sperm testing or double donor might be the way forwards.
TCCx


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## Ozmund (Sep 9, 2016)

Hi Happy Ambler

I'm so sorry you are feeling so despondent.  The fact that you have high grades and six blasts all sounds really positive for your next go.  We also felt very similar after our second DE cycle. Our first one we knew quite early that it was likely to fail as there was a lot of fragmentation seen on the embryoscope and only 2 made it to blast. Our second cycle we had 6 good blasts but fresh transfer failed again, leaving me questioning whether my body as at fault (I had had 4 natural pregnancies, all of which ended in miscarriage (unexplained) so was devastated we weren't even getting implantation).  

I did wonder whether they had chosen the right day for the fresh transfer as I felt my cycle was out of sync with the donor.  At our follow-up I queried whether to have an ERA or a scratch to help with implantation and the consultant suggested there wasn't enough empirical evidence for them although he did suggest a hysteroscopy might be useful to check for hidden problems in the uterus. Instead we decided to just make small changes to the treatment regime -  for the next FET however we stopped taking prednisolone (previously been prescribed for the rec mcs but the consultant thought it could be counteractive by allowing infections to flare up) and also added in extra progesterone (prontogest injections which are apparently more readily absorbed), together with pessaries, and unbelievably have had success.  

I'm wondering whether just changing one small variable in your treatment regime might be enough next time round? You mentioned having the NK cell biopsy at Coventry - however the treatment for high % cells would be prednisolone, which I note you are already taking. Perhaps if you had the tests then it might rule out the need for steroids in the future?

Wishing you all the best xx


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Hello ladies, I can't thank you enough for your replies. I was feeling so alone and it really helps to talk to people who've been through a sh*t time too - and made it out the other side!!

*Strawberry*/*Tincancat*- I'm not sure about DD just yet. There's nothing to indicate there's anything wrong with my husband's sperm - including DNA fragmentation. Our embryo quality improved dramatically when we switched to donor eggs. I know this doesn't rule it out - Serum have mentioned the idea of 'hidden' sperm issues and people who have success after switching to DD. I'm worried that after all this time and circumventing the 'main' issue ie. my eggs, that there may still be some unknown issue - either with me or my husband. It's reassuring that you had success with Serum, *Strawberry*. I trust them and want to stick with them, and I'm hoping Sofia will have some ideas when I speak to her next week.

*K jade* - hello lovely  I'm sorry I dropped off the other thread. I tend not to come on here when we're between cycles as I basically live in denial!! I'm doing prednisolone, intralipids, aspirin and clexane. Can I ask why an empty bladder is important? I didn't have one this time!! I went for a wee before I had the scan to check my lining. But in the 20 minutes it took for them to defrost our embryos it filled up again - they were struggling to get a good view because it was in the way. I offered to go and empty it but they said it was ok. Would hate to think it made a difference but at least I will know for next time.

Agree about the immune issues - I'm sure there are loads of fertiles walking around with raised NKs etc. At this point I do the intralipid and prednisolone to make me feel better. They work in the sense that they bring my values within range. I haven't heard about neupogen before, but I'm pretty much willing to throw anything at this at this point!!

*Ozmund* - you absolutely get how I'm feeling right now. I'm so glad you finally got your BFP. Yesterday I was catastrophising that maybe my body just can't do this, but you're right, it may only take a small change to get the next transfer to work.


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## K jade (Aug 11, 2013)

Happy Amber sorry my post didn't come across quite right. I was rambling about what eventually worked 4 me, and 1 key thing was empty bladder @ transfer . But no i didnt mean  everyone should do it. Id had disastrous transfers and i think it was impacting my success. Turned out full bladder tilted my uterus into distortion making transfers hell not 2 mention agony.

Back2 u, others have given great advice. 
i would ask penny about neupogen. She's an advocate of it, although doesn't seem to oversell it. Its also known as gcsf so u may have heard about it by this name.
I feel for u. Its such a cruel game all of this. But fingers crossed it'll be worth it xx


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Oh, no worries - sorry I misunderstood. I've always had fairly straightforward transfers so I feel for you that you had some bad ones! 

I've seen GCSF mentioned on their website. I'm glad it looks like I can talk about all this stuff with them - I know other clinics don't entertain some of these things, but when you're as barren as me you'll try anything!!

I always found the unexplained problem with my eggs a struggle - now there might be a whole extra layer of stuff going on. And it's just occurred to me there's a chance some of the blasts we made with my eggs could have been ok but didn't implant for the same reason the DE ones didn't. I know there's no point dwelling on it, but argh.


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## Besidetheseaside (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi HappyAmbler

We had 6 failed own egg cycles before we tried donor eggs.
After one failed donor egg cycle I had a mini Hysteroscopy this year in January and the surgeon said that it looks like a chronical endometritis, I probably had that since my miscarriage in 2016!
I had to take the Antibiotic Doxycycline for 2 weeks and the next donor egg cycle was successful, I'm 15 weeks pregnant with twins now.
He said that I could have taken the Antibiotics anyway as it's cheaper than a mini Hysteroscopy and a biopsy. 
Did you ever have a biopsy to see if you have plasma cells in your uterus? If you have chronical endometritis they'll find plasma cells in your uterus, Google it (it's not endometriosis!!), it's a chronical infection which doesn't make any symptoms. 
Good luck!


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Hey *Besidetheseaside*

Thanks so much for your reply. Hearing from people who have been successful after failed DE cycles is making me feel so so much better - congratulations 

Chronical endometriosis is a new one on me! Although I suspect if I had it it would have been picked up, as I have had hysteroscopies at all three of my clinics. I have also had several rounds of doxycycline over the years, so that probably would have nuked anything that was there!!


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## Besidetheseaside (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi HappyAmbler 

Did you had a hysterosalphingogram? Do you have your fallopian tubes still?


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## HopefulKayte (Jun 16, 2017)

I’m sorry for all the frustrating rounds of treatment - it’s such a mind-boggling and consuming experience. Although you’ve been told not to worry about sperm, I wouldn’t eliminate that. Embryos doing poorly after day 3 is a big sperm red flag even if DNA testing results weren’t worrisome. We were told for years that it was likely my egg quality issue and that using ICSI overcomes any unknown sperm issues. 6 fresh cycles later with embryos that could barely get to blast or didn’t, we moved onto donor eggs. We had the same fertilization rate as with OE and another miscarriage. Another fresh round of donor eggs and BFN. Nothing to freeze either time. At over $130 000 out of pocket (or to be real, in debt) it was time to be more pragmatic with not paying for fresh IVF and donor cycles, and also time to try other sperm. In Prague we paid for 1 or 2 double donor embryos with proven donors, at minimal cost. It took a couple tries but I had my daughter 4 weeks ago now. I learned that perseverance was key, even when it didn’t seem to take others so many cycles including donor cycles, and that test results on paper (and trusting them for years) don’t necessarily mean anything. Now I wonder if I even had egg quality issues at all, but it doesn’t matter now. We are thrilled with our sweet, beautiful baby who’s all ours.
In my last 4 transfers I added in immune protocol. I think finding that viable baby from those embryos can be a real needle in a haystack for some (makes it so hard to believe almost everyone I know in real life gets pregnant no issues and most on the first try each time - how??) I’m glad we attempted many things and gave it our all before trying other avenues, and am also glad I got to the point where I didn’t assume it was only an issue pertaining to my gametes.
Good luck and wishing you the best!


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## HopefulKayte (Jun 16, 2017)

PS. At my c-section, the doctor told me my uterus had lots of scar tissue. I’ve had many tests over the years and only hadn’t done a laparoscopy ironically - to check for scar tissue or “silent endo”. I’d been warned it was invasive and could actually do damage that could also lead to implantation issues. But now I also wonder if another issue was transferring all those embryos over the years into a uterus where so much of the environment would have been hostile for an embryo to implant and thrive. Just a little more food for thought from my experiences - who knows though right?


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

So glad I posted - your replies are all so helpful and have given me some hope!!

*Besidetheseaside* - yes, I still have my tubes. Had a hysterosalpingogram in 2013 '() as part of my investigations on the NHS. Why do you ask?

*Kayte* - my clinic weren't convinced it was my eggs either - on paper they shouldn't be as bad as they are. We actually tried a round with donor sperm and the same thing happened - from 20+ eggs and 10+ day three embryos (I've stopped paying attention to the numbers!!) we ended up with one BB blast. It's frozen but I don't think we will transfer (not really a BFN but was trying to keep my signature simple!) In our donor round 10 eggs became six good blasts. Of course we can't rule anything out, but my feeling is the problem with implantation is on my side.

I'm talking to my consultant tomorrow and because of this thread I've got a few more things to ask about. My feeling is my wonky hormones might be interfering with my implantation window, so as well as ERA I'm going to ask if it's worth downregulating before starting the FET drugs. But it looks like there may be a few things that we can check with my uterus too. *Kayte* - your post reminded me that one of my scans showed a heterogenous myometrium, which could be something to look at.

Back to my husband's sperm - we don't have any evidence there's a problem. But I'm expecting the idea of DD to be raised tomorrow, as it's been mentioned before. I wonder in cases where DD works after many rounds with OS if it could be an incompatibility issue? Immunology isn't my strong point, but my understanding is that alloimmunity shouldn't be a problem when using donor eggs? (Anyone know about this??) I also remember reading somewhere something about blood groups??

We have four precious embryos in the freezer. I'm not transferring again until we've explored every possible avenue.


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## Laquinn (Sep 4, 2017)

Hi Happy Ambler,

Sorry to hear about your failed cycles. Just thought I'd share our experience to see if it might help in any way. Following a miscarraige and a late loss we did several rounds of ovulation induction (Letrozole) unsuccesfully. Although we knew the problem was probably my old eggs, DH took the SpermComet DNA frag test and abstained for a few days and was told he was infertile. He took it again and abstained for four hours and the results were excellent. I also attended the Miscarraige Clinic in Epsom for immunes. We are currently 31 weeks pregnant with boy/girl twins from our first DE cycle. DH abstained for two hours for the cycle. Seems like short abstinence can address any sperm dna frag issues but clinics don't give you that advice... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1110569017300778
I also had a hysteroscopy and scratch a month before the cycle and we had intercourse a few days before transfer because I read that getting some sperm in there can help implantation.
Hope you find what works for you soon


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## K jade (Aug 11, 2013)

Grrr wrote u a long reply last night then dozy DH switched the WiFi off so it didn't send. 
In brief :
The fact u did a DS/OE  round is diagnostic. Defo seems your eggs were the issue here not your dh sperm. So id persevere with DE/OS combo as you clearly got vastly improved results with that. 

Try a SET next time. Increasing evidence indicates that if your uterus is 'choosy' ie won't do it for anything less that a perfect blast putting 2 in together could be counterproductive. As an imperfect embryo makes the endometrium go into rejection mode

Good luck  keep us posted regarding your follow up today xx


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## Besidetheseaside (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi HappyAmbler 

I'm asking because blocked tubes release a toxic fluid which runs back into your uterus and destroy every embryo. Even when they are tied this can happen. I had blocked tubes and after the removal I felt pregnant straight away. 

Did your husband ever have a sperm fragmentation test?
A man can have a normal looking sperm test with good numbers but a high DNA fragmentation. My husband's DNA fragmentation was 67%!

X


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

Hi again 

Had my follow up yest, and the first suggestion was a natural FET, which I'm absolutely not doing. My cycles are irregular and I just don't trust my hormones to create a good environment for embryo transfer. Looking like we will go ahead with a downregulated, medicated instead.

Apparently, Serum aren't convinced by ERA, to the point where they have basically stopped doing it. Although I think I would feel better just knowing the right genes are being expressed, so have asked if I can do it anyway.

I've also requested another hysteroscopy with implantation cuts, as my last one was nearly 18 months ago - so could potentially time it to do the biopsy at the same time.

Actually the most positive thing to come out of it was her faith in my body. She has hinted a few times that she thinks we could still be successful with my eggs. She practically scoffed when I mentioned the idea of a gestational carrier. Slightly frustrating as I don't feel she fully appreciates what it's like to go through eight unsuccessful IVFs. But (and I know it's in their interests to be positive) she sort of talked me down from my belief that I'm just fundamentally broken.

Frustratingly, I don't think we will be able to try again until September. For the ERA I would need to do a mock cycle in July, and the clinic closes for August - which, along with xmas, held us up last year. Another year slipping away&#8230;

*Laquinn* - that's interesting! I'm not convinced we have a sperm issue - donor sperm produced similar results to our previous rounds, with a lot of eggs resulting in one blastocyst. But in our donor egg round 10 eggs became six good blastocysts.

My husband's original sample at Serum showed high levels of DNA fragmentation, but this was massively improved by following their improvement protocol - basically antioxidants and antibiotics. I'm desperately hoping our remaining DE embryos will stick and my husband won't have to provide another sample. But if he does he will definitely be doing this!

*K jade* - I'm not sure we can do SET, as our remaining embryos were frozen in pairs 

*Besidetheseaside* - nothing has ever been mentioned about my tubes, but I'm open to all suggestions, so thank you


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## K jade (Aug 11, 2013)

glad your follow up made you feel a bit more positive. was it penny? or sofia?

I too used to believe that I fundamentally couldn't achieve implantation and that I was probably born that way so there were no answers. I was wrong. with the right embryo it was possible. sometimes it is just waiting for that right one. and it can take a while to show up.  frustratingly most embryos even in fertile people are duff. I truly hope that your 'one' is waiting in the freezer for you. 

im sorry that you'll have to wait until September,  I  found the gaps between cycles the hardest thing about tx. Well aside from the endless BFNs!

I wouldn't worry too much about the SET thing. it was just a small exploratory study I read once and wasn't gods word or anything.  obviously it cant be categorical or otherwise people wouldn't get twins and plenty do!

good luck for your hysto, at least that's something positive to be getting on with. and I hope sept comes around quickly for you so you can get one of your frosties on board

kjxx


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## HappyAmbler (Oct 2, 2014)

It was Sofia - she's been brilliant.

Knowing that you felt how I feel and are now finally pregnant is a massive help - thanks


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