# Boss treated my IVF as if I was having a boob job



## Anthony Reid (Jan 1, 2002)

Just noticed this article in the Times....

Boss treated my IVF as if I was having a boob job
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6061652.ece

Ironically - its in the life and style column


----------



## kitten1 (Jan 1, 2007)

_In the UK, 40,000 women a year *choose* to have IVF treatment _

This is a direct quote from the article and, as far as I can see, speaks volumes for how people who don't have problems concieving view IVF tx etc.

Ah well, good on Asda and HSBC for building leave for IVF into their policies!!


----------



## swhattie (Feb 9, 2009)

Choose?   MMMMM I must have forgotten when I 'chose' to have IVF.

Dya know I honestly cannot believe the... well frankly the thickness of some people.

Iv had a bottle of white zinfandel tonight and it mnakes me a bit 'angry' and I can honestly say this has increased my anger levels ten fold, I suppose I 'chose' to have a M/C and need additional treatment aswell eh?

aaaaaaaggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!


----------



## sleepypenguin (Jan 1, 2009)

How ironic I work for the NHS and there is a policy for everything (including 1 on how to write a policy!!!!) but nothing on IVF it is managers discretion so pot luck really fortunately


kitten1 said:


> _In the UK, 40,000 women a year *choose* to have IVF treatment _
> 
> I read that also and thought uhhh
> 
> ...


----------



## Jane D (Apr 16, 2007)

Hi


I am helping my local branch of Unison campaign for an IVF policy at my workplace - a sizeable local public sector employer.  We are having little progress due to it not being a statutory requirement.We are persisting though.  I am on a employees forum and will be pushing this matter personally  with the HR policy officer in 2 weeks time.  

Until IVF is truly recognised  as an illness that can affect people emotionally and physically I cannot see any legal protection even being thought about by the government, unless substantial numbers of the govt of the time are personally affected by fertility matters.  The previous delightful HR policy manager at myplace told me that IVF was a lifestyle choice and that there were no formal leave arrangements for IVF paid or unpaid.  I asked his boss (woman) and she told me  that paid leave was at the discretion of the manager! My company has no policy and managers do not know what to do! Some give time off paid  saying it is a  hospital appointment, others dont and insist you use annual leave.  

I applaud the likes of HSBC and ASDA for facing up to new issues of our time and taking notice of the needs of their employees undergoing IVF and assisted fertility treatment. I do hope more companies will follow suit.

jane


----------



## angel555 (Apr 7, 2008)

I too work in the public sector and was told quite directly by HR that IVF is comparable to plastic surgery!!!

So I can totally relate to this article. I wish employers would see what sort of an impact it can have on productivity eventually. Policies which would let us take a reasonable time off to have tx would actually take off a lot of the stress which is better for us as well as employers. 

Jane D, its nice that you are doing something about it with your Unison branch. I'm sure its a difficult task and wish you all the best with it. I too am a member of Unison, so hopefully your branch will set the ball rolling for all the other employers.


----------



## Loubelle (Mar 6, 2008)

I agree, the comments at the end of the article are upsetting and ignorant!


----------



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Grrrr.....so we choose to have IVF do we ?  What, like we choose which pizza topping we fancy or choose which pair of shoes to wear ?  I'm sure we all agree, having been through many IVF cycles, it's certainly not anything I enjoy choosing....it's something that I've had no option to do if I want a baby !  

The comment from one of the women about her having to use all her annual leave for IVF treatment sounds oh so familiar to me.  My company were initially ok but then I'd not taken a massive amount of time, just a few scans here and there and been signed off for 2 weeks during 1st IVF and then a few days here and there for 2 natural FETs.........but then my boss (male, not exactly understanding) even said "so how long are you going to try and how many of these treatments are you going to have"   .....err, hang on, let me just polish my crystal ball and take a look, my pychic powers are a bit rusty !!

So all my subsequent treatment cycles (3 more fresh) have involved me taking as annual leave as I was told by HR (my boss went & spoke to them) that IVF was seen as "elective surgery" and not "essential" and if I was found to be taking more time off (or signed off by GP or consultant for something that could be deemed as related to my IVF treatment) then I would get a warning....this is a large international company (in the finance & media sector) that perports to be a "people company" and where I've worked for 10 years !  I was told I could take it as unpaid leave, if agreed with by manager/HR but obviously when you're spending £1000's on treatment, you need all the cash you can get !

This may sound rather an obscure thing to say but I feel I was honest & upfront about me ttc and having to go through years of treatment, so far..........now I don't tell them anything since if I have to take it as holiday it's none of their business what I do on my days off...........I mean, if I was ttc naturally would I have to tell them when I planned to have sex just in case I got pg ?!!

I just wish more companies would open their eyes and realise it's not something we choose just cos we fancy injecting ourselves full of hormones, enjoy the bloatedness and being poked and prodded around alongside losing all shred of dignity !

Anyway, I'll  now....... *takes off hiking boots, steps off soapbox*


Good luck & take care  
Natasha xx


----------



## tam999 (Oct 7, 2008)

hello,

i cant ignore this thread ! i had big arguments with my workplace and in the end i had to threaten what currently stands in European law , that anybody undergoing ivf can not be discriminated against and any time of work can not be sick as it is not sick, they have now let me take all the time of ( covered by a sick note) and they are paying me and not counting it as sick! 
the European law came out in march 08 due to a women getting the sack whilst having ivf, and good on her she took them to the high courts and won.
i am currently on my 2nd cycle of ivf and relaxing which i should be at home and not getting stressed at work. 
i hope all work places will eventually have policy's to cover this sensitive subject.

Tam


----------



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi Shaz

yep, I did see that bit...interesting stuff huh ? I posted a thread on this board a while ago about similar...

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=181332.0

I know our HR said because of me they would have to look into putting a policy in place as more women would/are going through similar but I have no idea if this has yet been done......I had my "run in" with this back in end 2006 after my 2nd natural FET.....not heard anything since as I've just taken any time off as holiday and not even told them about my subsequent treatments.

Something really does need to be done about it though....for all companies, not just a minority.

Good luck & take care
Natasha


----------



## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

kitten1 said:


> _In the UK, 40,000 women a year *choose* to have IVF treatment _
> 
> This is a direct quote from the article and, as far as I can see, speaks volumes for how people who don't have problems conceiving view IVF tx etc.


Yes, it does!

To be fair yes, having IVF is a choice and some people do say no and either go straight for adoption or chose to live without children but for the vast majority, psychologically we need to follow treatment through to its natural conclusion. This is as much a physical need as an emotional one - in fact, probably more emotional that physical! 
So it's a bit of a Hobson's choice really, and given how poor the odds of it actually working are (compared to, say, the odds of a boob job being successful) then it's hardly comparable to cosmetic surgery. And in the end, succesful of not, you're never going to be "free" of the blight of infertility and it will always be a part of what you are.

Having a baby is the one basic thing we are biologically designed and driven to do so yes I'm making a lifestyle choice... just like millions of other normally fertile people do without being called selfish or being discriminated against for doing it. It's a choice to try and be normal. When other people affected by medical illness or (e.g.) disfiguration decide they want to be normal and have treatment to that end they are not questioned or refused time off or their lives made that much harder or given undue stress at a time when they least need it.
People who are not affected by infertility will never be able to completely understand the huge psychological trauma it visits upon us but most people do understand grief and loss and if they can only start thinking of the emotional impact of infertility as like a form of grief then maybe attitudes may change. 
I think opinions and attitudes will change slowly and one day maybe there will be protective legislation for people who need treatment for this illness. Until then, keep bashing your head against the wall!

C~x


----------



## Felicity Wishes (Feb 18, 2008)

I had a very similar experience last year after being truthful with my employer about having IVF and taking time off for it, with a sick note from my GP, on my return I was told really I should not have had the time off and that I had elected to have IVF the same as if I wanted to have cosmetic surgery.... I submitted a grievance about this and the way that my whole sickness related to IVF had been handled and I won... My company have now written a policy and also discovered that my IVF is a direct result to me having Endometriosis, therefore I am covered by the DDA and any time off work to do with my ENDO or IVF is covered.  

To the outside world (OUtside being those who do not have IF) then having IVF may be a choice, but to the majority having children or not is a choice, therefore those of us with IF should be given the choice to be allowed to try for a child without any questions being raised by employees.


----------



## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Read this debate http://my.bounty.com/forums/post/10/1863511/1/1/1/IVF-and-employers.htm It's free to register if anyone wants to comment, I've been registered on the site for some time now. I've also posted the link to the Times article to my ******** page with a suitable comment. Hoping a few people might read it, IF is something that there's not enough awareness of.


----------



## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks Shaz.


----------



## vickym1984 (Jan 29, 2009)

Unfortunately I know that if I get to the stage of needing IVF I will have to take any time as holiday/sick (probably holiday as we dont get great sick pay either) as my company is a small/medium chartible housing association


----------



## LuuLuu (Jul 15, 2008)

I read this article and felt a little disappointed it didn't go far enough.  i agree with you all - it certainly is not a choice to be infertile, yes it's a choice to do something about it.  At the same time, people can 'choose' to go skiing every year and break limbs and take paid time off sick - how is that fair

I work in local government and am fully aware that if I asked the question officially I would be told I'd have to take leave.  My boss was fab with my first tx and although I used annual leave, I'm sure he would have let me have it as special or sick leave if I'd have wanted - he told me to make the choice what I wanted to do.  As i had a lot of leave, I used that but if I need repeated IVFs (currently on round 2), it may come to looking at other options.  Unfortunately my boss has now moved on and if I have to take time off and don't have enough leave, I would not risk coming clean - I'd have to go off with 'gynae op recovery'.  That's despite me using all my annual leave for appointments and IVF in the last 12 months.  I've only had 4 days off work as actual 'pleasure'.

It's a very sad state of affairs that women have to do this.  

Jane D - so glad to hear of your campaign - I used to be a Unison rep and would love to see your campaign have success.

LuuLuu


----------



## Felicity Wishes (Feb 18, 2008)

LuuLuu said:


> I read this article and felt a little disappointed it didn't go far enough. i agree with you all - it certainly is not a choice to be infertile, yes it's a choice to do something about it. At the same time, people can 'choose' to go skiing every year and break limbs and take paid time off sick - how is that fair


LuuLuu

This was the exact example I used when my boss told me my IVF was an elective choice!!! the whole system is totally shocking!!!! good luck with your 2nd cycle hun xxx


----------



## LuuLuu (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks Felicity - best of luck to you too.

LuuLuu


----------



## cherriepie (Nov 3, 2007)

Hey

That article says it all really.  Well, from the point of view of those not effected anyway.  There is such a lack of awareness of infertility amongst those who are not effected and they often display the most outrageous ignorance when commenting.

I was treated really badly from my (now ex) employers - one of the largest lawyers firms in Scotland.  They knew from the word go that IVF was more than likely for my husband and I - for nearly a year infact and waited until the Friday before I started down regulating and told me they had someone new coming in the following Monday to take over my job and demoted me!  I fought it and was eventually reallocated to another position within the company for another partner however they made everything difficult and stressful.  I was eventually told by a female colleague that I had to "decide what my priority was, having family or my career".  I did get a BFP on first cycle but later miscarried and I attribute that to the stress and pressure placed upon me at work.  Obviously there is no way to say for certain however, my GP did write a letter to my employer agreeing about the stress placed on me after my employer "insisted" that I should be back at work two weeks after my miscarriage as that was long enough to grieve!!!  When it came to our second try (FET) I decided to leave after finding emails regarding personal details about my treatment from my HR department to the Partner I worked for as well as other colleagues within my department. I did everything I could to try to reason with them - even had a meeting with the Managing Partner and Chairman simply requesting that a policy be put in place for those who need fertility treatment - their response was "IVF etc are elective procedures".  Of course I told them they were being ignorant in that belief and advised them that such things as breast reductions were "elective" (a colleage of mine had a reduction and had 6 months off on full pay!).

I definitely think I was shown great discrimination and that the company did everything they could to "push me out the door".  I tried to get a solicitor in Scotland however none were willing to take on my employer due to the size of the company.  I have since found a firm in London who have taken on my case and we are fighting them on gender discrimination etc based on a ruling that came out of the European High Court only two days before my employer demoted me.  Perhaps they should have kept more up to date!

Of course I would prefer that none of that ever happened....until then it was a career which I enjoyed enormously but, given that I am now only 6 and half weeks away from my due date I wold never change anything on my journey that has lead me to this point.  However I do think that things have to change and it really has to come from the government in order for employers to really listen.  

I would happily get involved in any attempt to get employers to consider having policies in place with regard to fertility treatment.

On a separate note, my little sister has just started a Saturday job with Somerfield and I was delighted to see in her contract that they have a clear policy for both males and females undergoing fertility treatment!

Cherriepie

xxx


----------



## LuuLuu (Jul 15, 2008)

Cherriepie- firstly congrats on being nearly there with your pregnancy!!!  However - how appalling your story is.  I cannot believe the ignorance.

I spoke to my fantastic ex boss the other day and he is so wonderful about my tx -even asked me why I hadn't been for a recent promotion because in his eyes the IVF was not an issue -such a shame he's not my boss now.  I may well discuss with him pushing for a policy in future though.

LuuLuu


----------



## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

cherriepie: The way you were treated is awful. So glad you've found a law firm in London who've taken your case on as a result of the ruling in European Court. Hopefully it'll lead to better treatment for couples who need tx to have LO's.


----------



## cherriepie (Nov 3, 2007)

LuuLu - thank you for the congrats!    It really is fantastic to hear that there are some employers out there who empathise and can appreciate that having fertility treatment is not a "choice" or "elective".  Good on him for being one of the god guys  

Shaz - thank you for your congrats too and I can say I am lucky enough to have had a very good pregnancy (touch wood).  And yes, it's quite astonishing that they are a law firm.  I guess they thought they knew it all, unfortunately for them they weren't aware of the EHC ruling.  Even now I don't want money from them although the London firm are discussing that with them (with a view to it being donated to the clinic I used).  I just want them to apologise for the way I was treated and put a policy in place.  I even told them that they were doing their clients a disservice by not advising them regarding the new ruling in order to protect themselves as well as their employees.  Here's hoping we win and they learn something from it - and other employers too.

Cate - thank you for congrats    and me too!!

xxx


----------



## Flash123 (Jan 29, 2006)

Hi all,

I too have had a similar experience. I am a deputy head teacher in a primary school. I teach special needs children with emotional and behavioural difficulties and many are violent. Although the holidays are utterly fantastic unfortunately periods and treatment do not always know when they are!!!

I am currently on my 2ww. Luckly the main part of my treatment fitted in with the easter holidays but due to the violent nature of some of my pupils I wanted to take the 2ww off. My head was fantastic and said to take it on the sick but when we contacted the insurance company for supply cover - they have refused to pay because IVF is 'ellective' and classed as cosmetic surgery. I have been teaching for 12 years and have never taken time off for sickness appart from my lap. To say that I am livid is an understatement. 

Don't people realised this is traumatic enough any way without adding extra heartache and worry/
Liz XXX


----------



## LuuLuu (Jul 15, 2008)

Liz - insurance companies just look for any get out - RIDICULOUS.  Of course we 'chose' to be infertile like someone 'chooses' to make their breasts bigger!!!  Crazy!!!


----------

