# david carmeron will be taking away NHS funding



## keeley ;-)

hi all,

did you know that with the Conservative's get to number 10 we will have no more NHS funding?? I'm sure David would do a great job running the show but for me at least this is far more important!

He goes on about being a family man yet he is taking away our opportunity to have our own. doesn't add up.   

Keeley


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## keeley ;-)

just noticed i spelt cameron wrong! doh!


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## keeley ;-)

i forgot to add that is you are already in the "system" it makes no difference. if it goes it goes


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## slinkyfish

I really don't mean to sound awful here and yes, in an ideal world we should *all* have funded treatment (I never had any funding by the way and have spent at least 28K on having ICSI) but the NHS is so pushed I can see why this may be the case. The pot is only so big and we are refusing people treatments like cancer drugs to prolong life because of cost. There was a lady on TV the other day with 3 year old twins who wanted to see them go to school. She had terminal cancer and the only drug that could prolong her life was £££. She was refused it... 
Sadly I can see other treatments going too. It's an awful decision to have to make but where do you prioritise the money?

Before anyone says this, yes I agree there is a lot of waste in the NHS, too many Managers and we treat people who take no responsibility for their health eg smokers. Personally I don't think we should treat them, but then it becomes unethical to not treat someone who's sick...

Not easy decisions to have to make...

Sorry, not put this too well


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## vickym1984

Where has this been confirmed?


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## slinkyfish

No idea, looking on google now...


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## alex32

I won't be voting Conservative either way, but would be interested to see confirmation that this is true. Just because I know some prominent Tories have spoken out publicly against the postcode lottery in the NHS, so it's a massive u-turn if they want to drop funding now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/06/ivf-postcode-lottery

Slinkyfish, understand what you're saying, like you I was lucky enough to afford my own treatment in the end (though did take the NHS go). What happens to people who simply can't afford it though? It would be terrible if being able to have a child when your health won't allow it naturally just became a question of how wealthy you are. Sure there must be better places money could be saved in the public sector, or possibly it's something that should be means tested. Complicated stuff...

x

/links


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## coweyes

God its a difficult one!! Slinkyfish i do kind of agree with you on one level, but not on another, if that makes any seance!   I understand that the pot is only so big and that the money should be used to benefit the majority and not the minority, which i guess would be us.  But saying that its meant to be the nat health service and its meant to be there to help all that need it and i have needed it and i have used it, and for that i am totally grateful.  I believe there are other ways of cutting  back which would make a bigger saving.  Fine people for not attending appointments and make people accountable for their own health such as being over weight, smoking to much drinking too much etc etc.  I think we have a responsibility to do what we can to maximise our own health, which should reduce the demand on the health service.  There are soooooooo many other ways of saving money but i think they pick on something that is emotive to them and that would stir up a good debate.  Not really a genuine way to save money in my books though!


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## isobel snow drop

I too had to pay for all my treatments but I campaigned in my area for funding and we did get it although I didnt qualify as  the woman had to be aged 25-35 so I was too young  Money saved on ivf and other fertilty treatments wont be spent on cancer treatment it will just be frittered elsewhere, why not make someone who uses abortions as a form of contraception pay for their next mishap or make the next obese person get to the gym and and diet rather than having a gastric band and then plastic surgery afterwards!!


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## isobel snow drop

Me neither I just detest Camerons smug face, makes me wanna punch it


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## alex32

Another thing - wonder how much will end up being spent on mental health support for couples who get infertility diagnoses if they take away free NHS treatment? The amount of counselling and anti depressants people could end up needing if they were told they couldn't have kids naturally and they simply couldn't afford treatment, not to mention work hours lost etc - it could all end up being a burden too...


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## coweyes

alex Good point, it all has a knock on effect. xxxxxx


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## babyspoons

Have read on here that the Conservatives will scrap NHS funding.....is that true?

What about the other parties?

Anyone know?

Spoony x


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## Caz

isobel snow drop said:


> Me neither I just detest Camerons smug face, makes me wanna punch it


 Well always good to know there's a sound political reason not to vote for him. (But, yes, he does have a rather smugly punchable face, policies aside.  )

I think Tony posted something about this a while back. I don't think it's actually stated implicitly in their policy that they will be cutting IVF funding altogether, but that their policies around NHS funding and services strongly suggest it will happen.

Anyway, it won't change my vote because it's very unlikely I'd vote Conservative anyway. I don't know, overall, how it would affect my vote because I'd have to see the policy in context to the rest of their NHS policies and what they intend to do with the funds they save this way.

C~x


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## Ginger Baby

Hiya

I would just like to say that I read recently in the paper that there were adverts in Poland telling polish women to come over to England for a free abortion.  So maybe if we weren't giving out free abortions to people who have not paid into the system, there would be more money for people like us.  I know in Poland abortions are illegal but if we keep helping them out, how is their country going to change.  Also they will not be getting the emotional support they need.

I have waited 2 years to finally start IVF treatment so I will not be voting for them.  I have worked since I was 16, 2 years on at YTS scheme on only £35.00 a week.  So I think I deserve this treatment.  Plus I only get 2 free goes anyway so will probably have to paid at some point if these goes don't work but can only realistically afford to pay for one go myself.

Oh it makes me so angry.    I want to    them up.

Ginger Baby


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## levin

I won't be voting conservative anyway, but i must say that i agree with Slinkyfish on this one. I can totally understand why funding for IVF will be one of the first things to be cut - because there isn't an endless pot of money and as much as infertility is utterly devastating to those going through it, it isn't in most cases a life threatening condition (although i know it can lead to depression). I think it would be lovely to be able to offer free ivf to everyone but i think that there are other things (cancer treatments etc) that must take priority over ivf. I know this seems very unfair to those people who would not be able to afford to pay for their own treatment (we seriously scrimped and saved to afford ours and wouldn't have been able to afford any more treatment had our FET been unsuccessful), perhaps there should be some kind of subsidised treatment for the poorest families, although i can't see that happening either.


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## sal24601

what nhs funding? its already restricted and under Labour you dont get funding even though they pretend that you can have 3 cycles. we had to pay privately for all of our tx.


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## slinkyfish

It's the whole heart V the head thing for me

For me funding should be provided because it is such an emotive issue for us having been through it. On the other hand my head says how can we justify it when people are being refused life prolonging treatments?

Same principle applies to them as applies to couples who can't afford IVF - if they can afford it they get the drug and if they can't they die  

I don't think any NHS decision is easy these days as there is no endless pot of money...


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## keeley ;-)

well we have been on both sides. DP had cancer so i know where the money should be going, i also know that he didn't ask for it  and that we would never be able to afford £7000 a time to have a child (that he only really gets one shot at anyway). i cant understand how the NHS can pay for abortions and gastric bands for people who have put themselves in that position but not for couples that have had the chance taken so horridly away from them. as someone else said on here its not an endless pot of money but neither is the pot that bails out all the banks, because that's where all the money will be going.


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## levin

KeeleyKeeley - So sorry for what your dh has had to go through hun. I can totally see your point of view and i completely agree with you about abortions and gastric bands - i don't think they should be funded either, neither should treatment for people who have brought it on themselves such as smokers, drug users and alcoholics. However i do still think that unfortunately as infertility treatments don't really save lives i would rather funding be cut on those services as opposed to life saving treatments.
It is very unfair and i truly hope that funding for ivf doesn't get cut as i know how devastating that will be for so many people but i'm just saying that i can understand why ivf funding will probably be one of the first things to go.


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## keeley ;-)

when you actually think about it it doesn't cost the nhs that much money, they don't pay nearly as much as you would to go private. but to take away that one chance is just unfair. before IVF was free the health care system was no better off then it is now they didnt give people drugs then that they dont give now.


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## drownedgirl

Ginger Baby said:


> Hiya
> 
> I would just like to say that I read recently in the paper that there were adverts in Poland telling polish women to come over to England for a free abortion. So maybe if we weren't giving out free abortions to people who have not paid into the system, there would be more money for people like us.


I don't think that's quite true... a tiny handful of Polish residents in reality... http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2010/03/scaremongering-about-immigrants-and-nhs.html

/links


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## slinkyfish

I suppose the issue is that for years now the banks have been able to do what they like which has sent us into a recession and money has been trawled into the NHS with out thought for the long term for years now

Now we're left with HUGE debt and no pot. Sadly something has to give

As for gastric bands, smoking etc I do think the tide is turning. We will now not operate on people who have smoking, alcohol, diet etc related diseases unless they are willing to and have started to change their lifestyles. Small steps but in the right direction in my opinion

I am by no means saying it's right to deny anyone treatment but the reality of how bad things are is still emerging. I wonder how much longer the NHS can survive as a 'free for all' service


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## keeley ;-)

i wish it wasn't free for all. i have never been sick in my life never been to hospital and the only time i went doc was for this. so i guess i have paid for my tx about 10 times over already and i'm only 25


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## slinkyfish

Never say never hun. Neither had I and then my boys came along at 28 weeks. As you know you never know what's round the corner  

Please don't get my posts wrong. I really wish everyone could have all the funding they need to have a baby, but I just don't think it's going to be possible for which ever party that takes over to sort this mess out easily and without huge cut backs.

The one party I will never vote for again is Labour as I think they've made a right mess of it

Still unsure who to vote for as I'm not too happy about the idea of a hung Parliament either...


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## levin

Keeley - It is very unfair when you haven't had to use hospitals etc before but have still been paying your tax to help fund the NHS. The whole system is very flawed i feel but unfortunately i don't see it changing much and i can understand why they will cut ivf first, as unfair as it is.


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## ❣Audrey

I have always said that I though that the NHS would become a non entity by 2015 and that we would start to have to pay for our healthcare.  We take it for granted so much that it should just be there for us.  And honestly I think we forget that not every Health Authority in this country gives people free goes at IVF etc anyway!!

Even though Suffolk PCT says 4 rounds of IUI and 3 of IVF it doesn't mean we all get it, even if we should qualify.  

I do agree with Slinkyfish - it's hard to say exactly what I mean, but in an ideal world everything would be just so - eveyone would have to prove their worth to be parents, there would be no illness, or if there was miracle cures would appear, but it just doesn't happen that way and whoever gets in to government next has one hell of a task bringing back our public healthcare system from where it is at now.  And they have the god awful job of prioritising monies in various areas until they can stabilise it.  So although it is a horrid thought ( by the way having looked up conservative polices etc, it would appear that this isn't a policy stated in their manifesto, merely a statement from a tory who felt it should be the case).

And I honestly don't think we should bash asylum seekers (clue being in their name) - we're so quick to judge - stereotypes are so dangerous and you don't really know their background stories and as DG said so much scaremongering goes on there!  It's so easy to try and lay the  blame here there and everywhere when talking about such an emotive subject.

I'm rubbish at explaining myself but I honestly think a  lot of scare mongering goes on and I just wish we could all be grateful for the fact that we get free healthcare as it is in the first place, when so many people don't xxx


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## drownedgirl

I think 3 IVF goes should be free on the NHS. Cut back spending on useless American wars and outdated nuclear weapons, I say


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## ❣Audrey

Keeley - the NHS did take away my treatment.  And that was without any change in government.  

DG - here here xxx


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## keeley ;-)

aww sorry i didnt know that bee. you never really spoke to me an thursday x

DG AGREED


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## levin

Keeley - i do really, really feel for the situation you are in and i can totally sympathise with you. I do remember the times before my bubs, i was devastated at the thought of never having children, i was upset when i saw other people with kids and it took a lot of saving up to be able to afford treatment - but i always told myself that even if we couldn't have kids the most important thing was that we had each other and that we were healthy - i think this is why i would rather see money go to life saving treatments, and especially now i have children i would want them to get the best treatment if they were ill as opposed to it being spent on treatments that are not life threatening. Please, please don't take that to sound really awful or patronising, i am not the best at explaining myself. I really hope that you get your treatment hun.


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## ❣Audrey

Despite how I come across I am quite shy to start with - you'll get to know me over time - I just take a while to loosen up! xxx

Yep - Suffolk PCT will not treat us any further.  We cannot have IVF until my BMI is satisfactory and despiteb 6 years of hard slog at weightloss with a 5 stone loss they deem me too thin to have a gastric band - what Mr Boto considers the only option to get me to a suitable BMI.  So I now have it in writing that they will no longer treat us and I refuse to pay £8k for a gastric band and to be honest all we ever really wanted was a family and with so many children already out there needing parents, it was a logical move!

xxx


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## keeley ;-)

BEE-you seem happy with your choice. i love the diary idea i thought that was really moving x


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## AmandaB1971

Right ladies, I have edited this thread heavily and am now returning it for you to continue your debate about David Cameron and IVF - can you please keep to the topic, remain respectful towards each other and remember this is a public site.

Axxxxx


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## vickym1984

I emailed all 3 parties, got 2 replies (conservatives and lib dem) with not such a mention as to IVF directly (I asked them if they would cut the funding for IVF) and no reply from labour

Pft!


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## Tama

Okay I'm going to jump in with my size 9's!  

I totally agree that NHS funding should in no way be limited to people suffering life threatening illnesses, however, if you pay your taxes why should you be excluded from treatment for IVF? We all have a right to have treatment for medical issues. So it's okay for us to pay tax but when we need help we are told sorry your issue isn't important enough? I don't think so. I pay my taxes, my husband pays his taxes but because my health issue isn't life threatening I'm expendable?

I for one would never vote for Labour but would think twice about voting for a party that would deny people treatment, any treatment. How much money is being spent on the 2012 Olympic Games? How much money does the government spend on paying MP's 'expenses'? Last year the government spent £0.025bn on monitoring of the BBC! WTF? And how about immigration? Yes, there are genuine people needing help but how about all the people that are able to come to the UK having paid nothing into the system and are automatically entitled to free healthcare? 
For me it's about the overall picture. Most things are important, health, education, housing, immigration, security etc but what about all the little things that get swept under the carpet? In reality 'we' the public don't need a lot of these things but the government dem them appropriate. You only have to look at things like the Pope's visit to the UK - the UK will pick up the tab for this trip! More money that could be spent on real issues like health and education.

So in short I think that the new government needs to look at the bigger picture and find out what the people want, not just spend our money and not give us a vote! If indeed Conservatives intend to stop IVF treatment I would not vote for them. 

Vicky interesting about the local MP's I think I will write to mine to see what the outcome is too


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## Beth1

I echo what was mentioned earlier 'what NHS funding??" I won't be voting conservative anyway for different reasons but quite honestly I can't see the IVF funding situation improving under any of the parties.  I was 27 when I was diagnosed with a fertility problem needing IVF treatment and was refused any funding what so ever (at the time I was told I was too young and would only be able to get one cycle when I was over 35 (yes over 35!!!) and that was if I hadn't had any private treatment in between) my doctor even refused any of the initial screening blood tests I needed for my private treatment (HIV etc) We were lucky enough to have some equity in our house and re-mortgaged our house to pay for IVF, we spent just around £35K in the end   HOWEVER...I do believe this is such a difficult subject with no easy answer....there is only so much money in the pot and my heart goes out to all those people with cancers and other life threatening illnesses that are unable to get the drugs they need...I'm really undecided on all this, I just wish the NHS was run more efficiently and there was more to go around   xx


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## AmandaB1971

This is an emotive subject and of course everyone on here will see IVF as one of the most important things to fund but whilst considering the bigger picture perhaps there's a need to recognise that this is a diverse population and any government has to provide a service to everyone that lives here in the most balanced way they can and with a limited pot that is inevitably not going to please everyone all the time.



Tama said:


> You only have to look at things like the Pope's visit to the UK - the UK will pick up the tab for this trip! More money that could be spent on real issues like health and education.


I'm sure the 4.2 million catholics in the uk think that this is money well spent. 

Axxx


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## Jane D

All I want to say regarding the election and future nhs funding policy is that Conservatives, who on the whole i would presume all have private health care are not the obvious safe and secure custodians of the NHS.  I would not complain about higher taxation if it meant NHS was improved. I would rather pay more NI for the NHS rather than support higher inheritance tax thresholds for millionaires.  

Jane


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## keeley ;-)

TAMA-spot on!


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## kara76

my mp just came round the house and i have quizzed him and they have no plans to stop nhs funding of ivf


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## vickym1984

Thanks for doing that kara, obv not a guarantee but we will take what we can get eh. I said to my GP I was worried about it and he said he didn't think any of the parties would. I think they will be too worried about getting abushed by a lot of angry women lol


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## keeley ;-)

lol i wouldn't like to be the one that had to deal with that lol


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## pamalanga

I live in Hertfordshire and have worked for the NHS for over 11 years now, I have had fertility treatment on and off during all this time and have never had any funding, not even drugs help from my GP. Most people in this area have to pay for all their treatment so this will make no difference to my vote unless one of the parties promises to get rid of all postcode lottery with the NHS. 
p.s. I work in Maternity and still received no help even with consultant appointments etc.


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## keeley ;-)

aww thats not fair! i never knew some places got nothing! we get 3 fresh and 3 frozen in suffolk


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## Tama

I think the PC lottery is a nightmare. So sorry to hear you don't get any help   I too am in Suffolk and do feel very lucky for the care we currently get - well if you can have IF and be lucky that is


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## Ginger Baby

Keeley keeley

3 funded IVF cycles, thats awsome.  Think I need to move to suffolk ha ha !!!!

Ginger Baby


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## keeley ;-)

its not a bad idea lol alot of people are. and the house prices are good too x


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## Ginger Baby

Keeley keeley

Did I read your post correct.  Is it 3 funded Fresh IVF cycle and also 3 funded frozen.  Or is it just a maximum of 3 all together.

Where I live I can 2 funded goes.

Ginger baby


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## Tama

Hiya Ginger Baby I too am in Suffolk and currently it is three fresh IVF and three frozen - we are very very lucky


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

I am so angry about this issue anyway.
I do not have any children. My parents do not have grandchildren.
I have never claimed benefits of any sort ever. Neither have my parents, except child benefit for me and my dad's state pension that everyone gets.

I have always worked full time because I do not have children (up until last year when I went to 32 hours so my stress was lower for IVF) I pay substantial tax and national insurance, full council tax etc. And I have worked for the NHS since 1992. I have not used the schools or free nursery vouchers or etc as I don't have kids. I am cheap for the government to keep! 

My DH has a DS that does not live with us and we had to self fund legal action for access. The mother lives on benefits (that I pay via my tax probably) and she got legal aid to fight us. We pay huge amounts to the CSA.

I am EXCLUDED from ANY NHS funding due to the fact that DH has this DS.

Where is the justice in that? The NHS is paying for hundreds of single teenagers to have babies, give them a house and lots of benefits. The foreigners seem to arrive here and get everything. Apparently the NHS is even paying the Polish hospitals for Polish women to give birth in Poland due to EU rules!

Why is it always the poorest families that deserve help on everything? Why is it always people like me that work their butt off to pay their way in society that have to subsidise everyone else and never get anything in return?

In my job in intensive care I see £1000s spent on criminal low lifes, drug addicts and drunks. If I am anything to go by, my child will grow up in an education and career minded family and they will go on to have a professional career that contributes to society and pays the tax that supports the government. Without medical help for a medical condition that I have, I cannot have that baby.

If I die without leaving a new generation, and hundreds of intelligent women like us, who cannot have children are denied help, the balance will shift to people who do not contribute.

Makes me so wild!


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## coweyes

I am from Somerset and get 2 fresh goes and if from those fresh goes they collect and freeze any embrios then up 2 frozen goes.  There was some talk about it going up to 3 goes, i asked our consultant in Bristol and he said that we were the only pct that BCRM deal with that get 2! I feel very grateful but sad that others are not given the same change.  It also really annoys me that the rules are  not universal across all the pcts, it appears they each set the boundaries, which i think is misleading and unfair.xxxxxx


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## hoping :)

hazel- i totally agree, we pay tax...!!! FFS we pay tax on everything, and like u, i havent asked for a penny... and same for db-he pays HUGE tax, we dont go out getting hammered... and in to fights which leads to surgery, we dont ask for anything... and do u knw what, if we didnt hav to pay our tax bills, we could quite happily pay for ivf our selfs, so to us, we pay and pay and pay, and for what? we have never called the police, fire services or for an ambulance   i think we r only getting what we are due by now... it really riles me. if funding gets stopped the nhs is useless to me. we should hav a choice, pay tax and get nhs etc free... or not to pay tax-and go self funding for any treatment / service we need- cz i would pick the latter. our country is a JOKE. Ok call smokers, i was once a smoker... thats ur own choice-but by gosh, the tax on cigs? the govenment would miss that money if every1 quit! and if i had a spare 10k i WOULD pay for my own tx... make no mistake.... and as if by chance, our tax bill works out at 9.5k a year we could have had tx in the 2 yrs we been ttc, rolling on to 3rd... 
for all those who agree with tory- ur obviously not in the real world, if u seriously agree that stopping ivf funding will solve ANY problems... it will create a world of HELL for most of the members on this site, and mayb it should go off how much tax u hav paid in, to how much treatment u can get funding for... or just stop benefits full stop! that would save millions!!


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## Smorkie

Hiya All
Reading all your posts I completely understand. 
We only got one 'free' ivf/icsi at Leics Royal here in the Midlands last year and now they advertise three fresh rounds free. Simply because we started last year, we are no longer eligible! Where's the sense in that ? 
We all pay tax albeit percentile and therefore should be entitled to the same treatment across the UK. Government compare the schools across the country so why not NHS funding. 
There is no transparency and I don't trust any party to do the best for my career in education nor our pursuit to have our own family.
No wonder people opt out of voting!
Sarah


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## ♥JJ1♥

I have to agree that there should be equitity in the countries- but there is also descrimnation that I,and other single women have faced- I  am a single woman using a known donor ( I could have lied and said he was my partner as I know some people qho have,and for the length of time in their relationship etc  and got treatment funded- who said honestly pays!! ) and I have fertility problems (Asherman's syndrome - a side effect of ERPC in 2% of cases by an over zealous NHS surgeon who scrapes away your basal layer of your endometrium so you can't get a thick enough lining - a side effect that nobody really tells you about when you go for your ERPC) after my miscarriage I have never been entitled to any treatment on the NHS- I have worked as a nurse since 1987.  I don't begridge anyone having care on the NHS after all it is supposed to provide care 'from the craddle to the grave'  I have spent over £70K on TTC a baby, neither of us have a child. Also GP's won't fund any drugs etc as having private treatment.  I am nowover the NHS age limits for funding so it makes no difference to my personal case.

I am delighted that in some PCT's now same sex couples are getting funded cycles, but still nothing for single women who have fertility issues - I have been TTC with my friend since 2005 so a lot longer than may couples getting NHS cycles. I have never smoked, worked for the NHS and done voluntary work as well.

I have voted (postal) already and heard Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg and David Cameron speak at a conference !! TBH IVF funding didn't influence my decision but the future of the NHS as a whole did.

L x


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## vickym1984

social chameleon-don't want to get side tracked on this issue, but just wanted to put my pennys worth in lol. Re the weight issue, I think that the NHS should spend money out on mentally helping out people with obesity, rather than just sending them for gastric band surgery. It would be a lot cheaper, and a lot more effective. I was lucky in that in my town there was a free counselling service by a charity for those under 25, so when I went at 24 I got counselling for my issues, including my relationship with food and managed to go from 18 stone to 11 stone. I was probably on the verge of the docs offering my a gastric band, but that wouldn't have tackled my real issues


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

In my intensive care unit we take gastric bypass patients post op (much bigger operation than a band - they have their whole intestine replumbed in an 8 hour laparoscopic surgery) . 
Yes this does cost a lot of money. They have to try losing weight first with the help of a team of dieticians etc. it is high risk with a reasonable chance that they might not make it through the anaesthetic.

By the time these people have this type of surgery their weight is beyond what is possible to diet and exercise from - they often have a BMI of over 50 and can be 150-200Kg. They often can't breathe - they need ventilatory support at night to stop them suffocating under their own weight. They can't exercise due to severe joint problems - so any calories that they eat are not burned off. The gastric bypass leaves them with a nut sized stomach - and they are left with only ever, for the rest of life, having to take vitamin supplements and eating miniscule meals. It is not a decision that is taken lightly.

We treat every other ''self inflicted'' disease, so why not obesity? Smokers do not only need cancer treatment - they have heart attacks, heart failure, heart surgery, peripheral vascular disease and fempop bypasses and amputations, COPD - chronic lung disease with infections constantly bringing them in with exacerbations, asthmatics who smoke do worse, smokers need more respiratory support and care after an anaesthetic or accident, stomach ulcers, stroke, high blood pressure, poorer outcome for the mother and baby in pregnancy, cot death and respiratory problems in children -you name it - smoking causes it.

To get NHS funding for IVF you aren't allowed to be a smoker or overweight. So surely it has other benefits!!!


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## Ginger Baby

Hi everyone

Tamara.  I am so jealous that you get 3 funded fresh goes and 3 frozen.  Thats absolutely brilliant.

Hopeful Hazel.  I too am so annoyed about this issue.  Like you I feel I have paid enough into the system for treatment.  I studied hard at school and got 9 GCSES but my parrents could not afford for me to go to uni.  They did not want me saddled with debt.  I have worked since I was 16, and first 2 years of work where spent on a YTS scheme on £35.00 a week but I got to go to college once a week and then got a job.    My DH has always worked apart from when he was paid off and was on the dole for 10 weeks.  This was when he was about 20 years old.  Hes now 36 and has always had a job apart from that time.  My DH's brother has never worked, he even got kicked off numerous training schemes for not turning up.  Hes coming up 40 this year.  40 years old and never had a job, what a bloody joke !!!  We don't really speak to him cos when DH was younger and lived at home his brother used to steal from him and he once got DH beat up.  His brother lives with his partner and they have 4 kids.  2 she had in a previous relationship and 2 they have had together.  She has never worked either.  He was complaining last week that the job centre are making him go on a course for a week otherwise they will stop his dole. 

I don't even get NHS funded dental care cos they aren't many in my area and most of the places go to people on benefits so I pay for my own dental care.  Like you I would gladly stop paying tax and national insurance and use the money to fund private treatment.  I have two funded goes at IVF and if it does not work I will probably have to take out a loan or something to pay for another go. 

On my road where I live alto of people are on the dole cos it doesn't pay to work.  One lady gets up and takes her kid to school in her PJ's and then comes back home and goes back to bed.

At times it all just seems so unfair.  Sorry for going on everyone

Ginger Baby


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## hoping :)

ginger baby-thats excatly what i said, its a joke, it really is... all these ppl take and take from the system, and we pay and pay to fund lay abouts  then cant afford tx as our tax bill is a fair wack, and we try not to get in to debt... except for our house, cant do right for doing wrong springs to mind.   x x 

PLEASE ANY1 WHO SAID THEY WASNT GOING TO BOTHER TO VOTE.... IN THE POLL, I ASK U, IF U DONT AGREE WITH STOPPING IVF FUNDING AND GASTRIC SURGERY FOR OBESE PEOPLE - PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO VOTE, AGAINST THE TORIES... NO VOTERS DONT GET HEARD, WHICH MEANS WE WILL GET STUCK WITH WHO EVER DOES VOTE AS OUR LEADER. OBESE PPL WILL B GIVEN BASICALLY THE DEATH PENALTY... AND FOR ALL OF US HARD WORKING LADIES, SUFFERING INFERTILITY (WE AFTER PAYING MONEY IN TO NHS FOR YEARS - AS WE WOULDNT AND DONT WANT CHILDREN FOR BENEFITS AND ARE IN A STABLE POSITION TO LOOK AFTER CHILDREN, MAYBE FORCED TO GO IN TO THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF DEBT-TO ACHIEVE A DREAM, MOST PPL TAKE FOR GRANTED-A CHILD) THIS SITE IS TO HELP GIVE SUPPORT TO PEOPLE SUFFERING INFERTILITY, PLEASE LETS SUPPORT EACH OTHER ON 6TH MAY 2010     x x


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## Ginger Baby

Hello Hoping

Just thought I would say well said.

Ginger Baby


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## slinkyfish

Sorry to be dim here girls but are we _sure_ the plan is to cut IVF on the NHS if Cameron gets in? I have Googled the Conservative policies / Manifesto and so far have found nothing that confirms this. There are some people commenting in the press that it may have to go but from what I have read it's all speculative and mostly from the other parties. Our local MP came knocking over the weekend and he seems to know nothing about this either

Can someone please post an _actual_ Conservative policy link to confirm this story. As an undecided voter I'd be really interested to read it? Following all the issues with Labour stating in their fliers that Winter fuel tax will be cut along with other services, which turned out not to be correct and the fliers withdrawn, I just don't know which politician to believe

Also with this huge deficit in the budget where does it say that these other parties will protect IVF? I can find nothing about it in their policies either. I suspect what ever party is elected cuts will be made and it may well continue to be under threat

Thanks


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## hoping :)

hi slinky, it has been on this site several times now, this topic. it was first brought to my attention by tony reid several weeks ago.... a big red warning like the above about maintenance work. hun, if u wish to vote for Tories that is fine, we all get our own choice-and for alot of ppl, IF and gastric surgery wont bother them in a life time... and i doubt the tories are going to post in black and white about stopping nhs ivf funding, as they will realise they will immediately exclude all those with IF issues, which since joining here, i realise it is alot of ppl. the tories want to stop hand outs- whoop whoop that is fine with me-if they are talking about ppl sat on there  claiming benefits, but i am sure, us wanting ivf are classed as hand outs. they want to put the money in to other parts of the nhs, and i have seen this for myself on the tv, and other ladies have seen it on the news too. 
I personally, will b voting, and not for tories... I am not going to take the chance of loosing my very nearing tx. Oh and also, hospitals doing ivf frm nhs funding have also confirmed they are waiting to see if the tories get in to power b4 continuing ivf tx - and seen as our last appt was FEBUARY, we was told to be awaiting a patient info eve letter... we had a follow up to see what we had stored for back up, and the consultant asked when out 'pie night' was, as we had said we didn't have 1 through yet he called the dept that deals with it (end of april) who said we will b in touch in 4 weeks, it doesn't usually take 3months to get this letter. maybe a coincidence, but i think not. 
like i said earlier, all vote for who u want... I'm not trying to sway every1 to a certain party, i just want others going through the same as me, to be aware.


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## slinkyfish

I hear what you're saying hun but apart from this site and newspapers that support Labour where is the actual evidence from this party that they are going to do this and where's the proof from the others that they're not?

NHS hospitals are waiting to see, full stop, as who ever gets into power things are going to change radically. What I'm trying to distinguish is if this is actually going to happen, if it's speculation or if it's another bid by other parties to win votes. Labour don't want us to vote Tory as this will lead to Mr Brown loosing power, however if he can get people to vote for other parties ie Lib Dem then he stays in no 10! As far as I'm concerned it's his govt who are responsible for this mess, so there's no way I want him in having once voted Labour

I'm just not sure what we're being told is the truth because again I can see no actual evidence, so far it's all hear say and speculation from non Tory sources.

I think any non essential treatment (and I mean that in the nicest possible way having never had funding, paid loads out for ICSI and experienced the pain of infertility) no matter what party gets in may well be under threat as there is no money in the pot due to years of banking neglect, NHS overspending in the wrong areas and wars we shouldn't have been involved in. The cuts will come with any party sadly but still _no one _ has been specific as to what will go and what will stay as far as I can see. Even having watched all the debates I'm non the wiser about any of their policies, but who ever is in power is going to have to find money, and lots of it, from somewhere


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## hoping :)

thats all true, we as individuals cant do much to fight our own corner... We r given 3ppl, an told to pick frm 1, !!! I just feel that the tories have more of there own intrests at the for front, helping the ''middle class'' which i am not, i am working class... And it seems we both get stuck paying for the 'cant b arsed class' whilst trying to do the right thing, it means we would hav to lend money, to even try to hav a child. Like i said earlier, if we had an option to pay tax and hav nhs, or to work tax free, and pay our selfs for any servies we may need or treatment we need, i would opt for the latter... Our country is ridiculous.x


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## Mummytoone

Its very difficult, the whole financial aspect of it.

My ex husband and I drummed up in total a cost of 30K on fertility tx. This was in a Labour government  


x


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## levin

I also believe that funding for ivf will be in jeopardy regardless of which party gets in - i haven't seen any firm evidence that the tories will cut funding other than hearsay, not that i'm defending the tories in any way because i definitely won't be voting for them - but i don't think theres much point getting so worked up about this when they haven't come out officially and said this is what they're going to do. Labour or the Lib Dems could easily decide to cut it as well.
To be honest i do think that we all take the NHS for granted so i don't think that we should be expecting non-essential treatments as our right. Other countries don't have free healthcare and in my opinion we are in a much better position than people in those countries who don't get free treatment, and some probably die from not being able to afford to see a doctor when they're ill or pay for medication they need- we can't therefore expect everything to be paid for.
Hoping - I think it would be lovely to be able to opt out of tax and pay for your own healthcare if you wanted, but your tax doesn't just go to the NHS, it also pays for schools and policing - so you would end up paying some tax regardless.
I don't want to seem like i'm being unsympathetic to people who can't afford their own treatment - i for one have not got a lot of money, we scrape by most months and had to cut back hugely to be able to afford ivf. I feel very, very sorry for anyone facing the uncertainty over whether they are going to get the treatment they are expecting.


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## slinkyfish

With out doubt it's a minefield and I hope to God all this speculation turns out to be just that and people continue to get much wanted treatment, but no party will guarantee it because they will inherit a country with simply no money. That is the whole problem and while it's fantastic to have all these services they have to be payed for. That's why I don't think the NHS can continue to fund IVF treatment along with a lot of other services, such as palliative life prolonging cancer treatment for the terminally ill that costs 40K + per year for another 6 months of life. If you fund these then other services will suffer. It is sadly going to hurt a lot of people, but the money has to be prioritied. Even if we pull out of Afghanistan, stop Trident we are in debt to the tune of Billions and nothing is going to change that overnight   No party can say they wont make these cuts as they can't

Yes there are plenty of ways to save money in the NHS, by making people more responsible for their health, not paying £££ for agency nurses when you have nurses that would join the hospital bank if they didn't pay peanuts, loosing ineffective managers, not keeping people who are old and want to die on ventilators for weeks - the man I looked after yesterday was 84, lived alone, had end stage COPD and just wanted to die and be with his wife. Did we respect that? No! We put him on a ventilator. IF he recovers he can't go home so will have to sell his home to fund his Nursing Home care! His stay will cot £££ and the chances are he'll never get off the ventilator and will die. I'm not being horrible here but that's wasting money and resources on a poor man who should have been allowed to die peacefully with dignity and not hooked up to a ventilator being poked and prodded for weeks  . 

However, still none of these are quick fixes that will sort out the huge volume of debt 

Before anyone thinks here that it's easy for me to say all this as I have my children, yes I do, but believe me we have and still are struggling financially from the impact of ICSI. We had no funding at all, had to re mortgaged our home and had to ask my b**ch of a MIL for money. When the FET she loaned us money for failed she said ' What a waste of my money!'   So I do understand how emotive this issue is  

I genuinely really, really hope you get your treatment hun


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## slinkyfish

levin said:


> To be honest i do think that we all take the NHS for granted so i don't think that we should be expecting non-essential treatments as our right. Other countries don't have free healthcare and in my opinion we are in a much better position than people in those countries who don't get free treatment, and some probably die from not being able to afford to see a doctor when they're ill or pay for medication they need- we can't therefore expect everything to be paid for.


Well said! It happens without doubt. I lived in China and if you are poor there and ill, you die


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## slinkyfish

hoping :) said:


> Like i said earlier, if we had an option to pay tax and hav nhs, or to work tax free, and pay our selfs for any servies we may need or treatment we need, i would opt for the latter... Our country is ridiculous.x


That's a great idea as long as you don't get ill!

Up until my twins were born we had never been a burden to the NHS at all. When they arrived at 28 weeks, under your idea, we would have had to pay for

My emergency transfer via ambulance for me to a level 3 Neonatal Unit
My emergency c section
My drugs - and I had lots!
Staff to look after me
2 Neonatal Intensive care beds. 4 weeks for Jack and 7 weeks for Sam
Staffing for them to be looked after - including physios, bf advisor, counsellor for me and DH, opthalmologists, audiologists and many more...
Drugs
Ambulance transfer for them to go back to our local hospital
A further 6 weeks of SCBU care for Jack (3 for Sam as he got very sick and had to be transfered to London via emergency ambulance for treatment)
Neonatal emergency transfer of Sam to London - including Driver, Neonatal Nurse and Neonatal Doctor
Sam's transfer back to our local hospital

Months of follow up care from Community Nurses, Doctors etc
Prescription, high calorie catch up milk
Reflux medication for 1 year for Jack and 2 years for Sam
6 months worth of RSV vaccine for them during their first Winter at the cost of £500 per dose (they had 12 doses between them)

Can you imagine the bill    

You never know what is round the corner hun and what you or your family may need some day


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## Mummytoone

Slinky, i actually think you should be prime minister, you are speaking SO MUCH sense x


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## slinkyfish

*Lulu* said:


> Slinky, i actually think you should be prime minister, you are speaking SO MUCH sense x


    I just think we're buggered which ever way we go!


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## levin

I agree, Slinky for PM


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## AmandaB1971

Ladies

Can I just ask you to be very careful and to remember this is a public site.  I have removed a number of references which could be libellous and get the site into serious trouble so please be careful.

Amanda xxxx


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

I hate to say it - and this is not my opinion - but this is another reason why the government do not want IVF and if they are funding it they only allow SET, and trying to enforce SET on everyone through the HFEA.

It is the neonatal intensive care required for multiple pregnancies that costs the real money. Of course there are success stories, but there are also a lot of lost twins and misery for parents too.

It is about £1000 per day for intensive care, sometimes more. People quote that it costs £5000 per go for IVF - it probaby does not cost the NHS that. It is more like £1500 plus drugs. Plus the maternity/obstetric care costs loads for all these extra babies that would not otherwise exist, and then c-section costs more - so they are trying to restrict those by targets - possibly putting lives at risk.

When will it be that if you get pregnant through private IVF you have to pay for your own obstetric care and neonatal intensive care? I can see it happening. They do not have any obligation to treat you on the NHS if you start out as a private patient - it is where you draw the line as to when you are entitled to come back to the NHS.

Then there is the schooling for 15 years.

However, this has to be balanced against the aging population and the fact that we are going to need young people to earn and pay tax in the future. If there is a dip in the birth rate due to infertility, then there will be a deficit. It has been shown in various analyses that IVF is ultimately good for society.


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## hoping :)

so, its the after care that is the cost problem... id b more than happy to have a SET, but u do make a good point hazel-the children are our future. 

like for instance in Thailand, they pay a small annual fee towards schooling, i think £1000. obviously it would need to be more here... but even if we personally contributed so the govenment didn't pay as much, again i would be happy, as i would want to help out for my child's education. but what bugs me, is the benefits system, do we think people (for instance a lady who sold her story to a magazine  has had 7 children and her nor her husband work, and are complaining they need a new house, they earn 42k per yr benefits... and want 7 more children   ) if she had to pay £7k out of her personal benefits to school her children for min of 12 yrs would keep having more children? 

slinky I'm glad u received the care u needed wen u needed it... i don't begrudge any1 help when they need it, in the time we have been ttc we have paid 30k tax, to have never used nhs (except for IF appts) sub total (compairing to private 2.5k) never used the police/fire/ambulance etc  and if we have no children this will continue until we retire, i think i would have rather paid as and when we need a hospital etc, it would work out cheaper. 

if i am quite honest, id love to move away, and pay for anything we need as and when, as i think it is fair. i would also, happily pay an annual school fee like in other countries. I think that really the police are what we should all chip in for.  

and i know i sound barmy to some of you, we just have different views. and i would yes like to see something back (even if it is classed as non-essential) for the money we have  contributed. 

I hope everyone in here, is able to achieve there dreams, and i think it is  wonderful we can now turn to procedures like ivf/icsi... I am not going to post in here again as the whole thing  makes me angry... and me being angry isnt going to change anything.


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## levin

Hoping - Aww hun i know you feel very hard done by because you've paid a lot of tax and don't feel like you're getting anything back for it - i can totally understand that and i really do sympathise with you. However i do think that you've not really thought about the implications of not paying tax - for example you say you've never used the police/ambulance/fire service - well neither had i until my little boy nearly choked to death on a piece of apple a few months ago and i had to call an ambulance. I wouldn't have been able to pay privately for that as we simply can't afford it - my husband works very hard, we don't claim any benefits apart from a bit of tax credits - so where would that leave people like us if we had to fund everything privately. Same for schooling, a lot of people who work very hard but don't earn a lot of money wouldn't be able to send their kids to school. Its very easy to say we should all pay for these things privately but actually that would be grossly unfair.
As i said before people do take the NHS for granted, i bet most people think nothing of how much it costs to see a gp for example and i'm sure you've probably used a gp in the past. I do think if you can afford to pay for private healthcare and private education then you should certainly be paying for private ivf as well.


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## slinkyfish

Hopeful Hazel said:


> I hate to say it - and this is not my opinion - but this is another reason why the government do not want IVF and if they are funding it they only allow SET, and trying to enforce SET on everyone through the HFEA.
> 
> It is the neonatal intensive care required for multiple pregnancies that costs the real money. Of course there are success stories, but there are also a lot of lost twins and misery for parents too.
> 
> It is about £1000 per day for intensive care, sometimes more. People quote that it costs £5000 per go for IVF - it probaby does not cost the NHS that. It is more like £1500 plus drugs. Plus the maternity/obstetric care costs loads for all these extra babies that would not otherwise exist, and then c-section costs more - so they are trying to restrict those by targets - possibly putting lives at risk.
> 
> When will it be that if you get pregnant through private IVF you have to pay for your own obstetric care and neonatal intensive care? I can see it happening. They do not have any obligation to treat you on the NHS if you start out as a private patient - it is where you draw the line as to when you are entitled to come back to the NHS.


I think that's a fair point and agree that's why SET is being pushed. I opted for 2 because of my age (37 at the time) and we'd had a singleton prior to this at 32. However had I have been able to see the future I would have thought twice. I thought they may come a little early but 28 weeks  A lot of people want twins, with the ready made family, but it can come at a price to all. My early labour was bought on by an undiagnosed UTI and would have happened with a singleton, but most multiple birth babies spend some time in SCBU. If I had to do it all again it would be SET for me

JUST TO ADD HERE FOR ANYONE READING, PREGNANT WITH MULTIPLES, IT IS STILL VERY RARE TO GO INTO SUCH PRE TERM LABOUR (PRIOR TO 32 WEEKS) WITH TWINS. NEONATAL UNITS ARE ALSO FULL OF TERM BABIES WITH OTHER ISSUES AND PRE TERM SINGLETONS

Like with so many other illnesses they have no obligation to treat you but there is also an ethical factor, just like there is with the overweight and smokers - do you leave them to die in what is a civilised society? I have worked in a private ITU and if the patient gets too sick they are transferred to the NHS or they'll die, do you leave them? It's what makes us different from other countries where you _would_ be left to die if you had no money - exactly what happens in China. It can never be that straightforward

Anyway we are digressing from the point a little, I still see no evidence of this being a Tory policy to cut IVF, so to me this argument is still speculative and could be about any of the 3 parties


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## slinkyfish

levin said:


> Hoping - Aww hun i know you feel very hard done by because you've paid a lot of tax and don't feel like you're getting anything back for it - i can totally understand that and i really do sympathise with you. However i do think that you've not really thought about the implications of not paying tax - for example you say you've never used the police/ambulance/fire service - well neither had i until my little boy nearly choked to death on a piece of apple a few months ago and i had to call an ambulance. I wouldn't have been able to pay privately for that as we simply can't afford it - my husband works very hard, we don't claim any benefits apart from a bit of tax credits - so where would that leave people like us if we had to fund everything privately. Same for schooling, a lot of people who work very hard but don't earn a lot of money wouldn't be able to send their kids to school. Its very easy to say we should all pay for these things privately but actually that would be grossly unfair.
> As i said before people do take the NHS for granted, i bet most people think nothing of how much it costs to see a gp for example and i'm sure you've probably used a gp in the past. I do think if you can afford to pay for private healthcare and private education then you should certainly be paying for private ivf as well.


Same here - me and DH worked all our working lives, never claimed for anything but we could never have afforded treatment for the boys without which they would have died. I never saw this coming, not many people do . God forbid if you were to be diagnosed with a life long condition such as renal failure, I would guarantee you'd struggle to meet the costs for potentially 40+ years of treatment. If you are unwell you can't work either to help meet the costs so you'd have to have that money saved well in advance just in case


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## hoping :)

levin said:


> Hoping - Aww hun i know you feel very hard done by because you've paid a lot of tax and don't feel like you're getting anything back for it - i can totally understand that and i really do sympathise with you. However i do think that you've not really thought about the implications of not paying tax - for example you say you've never used the police/ambulance/fire service - well neither had i until my little boy nearly choked to death on a piece of apple a few months ago and i had to call an ambulance. I wouldn't have been able to pay privately for that as we simply can't afford it - my husband works very hard, we don't claim any benefits apart from a bit of tax credits - so where would that leave people like us if we had to fund everything privately. Same for schooling, a lot of people who work very hard but don't earn a lot of money wouldn't be able to send their kids to school. Its very easy to say we should all pay for these things privately but actually that would be grossly unfair.
> As i said before people do take the NHS for granted, i bet most people think nothing of how much it costs to see a gp for example and i'm sure you've probably used a gp in the past. I do think if you can afford to pay for private healthcare and private education then you should certainly be paying for private ivf as well.


 if the people who work very hard pay taxes, then if there taxes was greatly lowered, yes i do think they could afford a contribution to their childs education, (this is what i said, i would prefer to do than pay the % of taxes) and yes, in my whole adult life i have seen my gp 3 times, twice about ttc. (so my personal bill wouldnt b very big-i dont have lots of money stashed away, if i did i would have gone private yesterday!  ) and of course u should be able to call an abulance for your son, for instance in america-they dont have nhs, yet they can still seek medical help in an emergancy... i dont believe in letting people die because they cant afford to seek medical help, that is not my point. if like hazel said it costs nhs 1.5k for ivf, that is a little amount of what we have paid, i just dont feel we should all b (if this state is even true) refused funding as a whole. mayb if they looked in to cases and see if u have contributed. and you are both right, if i was unhealthy, i would see this point very differently... but as it stands, IF is our only problem. I could walk away frm my partner and concieve naturally, sit on my bum, and get a house, and claim benefits, and cost the govenment x amounts a year... and pay nothing  just doesnt add up to me...


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

In the 10 years that we have been TTC, I personally have paid about £100,000 in tax and national insurance. My husband has paid about another £80,000. Then there is VAT £ and council tax - about another £20,000.

I don't like paying tax, but in civilised society we have to pay into a pot so that services can be provided for everybody. You could say that because I work for the NHS, yours and my taxes are paying my wages. I feel like I am paying for my DH's ex's benefits while she is a mummy and I am not.

What I find appauling about the IVF postcode lottery is the rules the PCTs make up.

Why am I excluded from having treatment for a condition that has destroyed my life because of the person I married? If I left him I could have treatment with someone else.

When the NICE guidelines were presented to parliament the secretary of state for health said that priority would be given to couples who did not have a child living with them. (I have looked it up in the past exactly what was said that day - but if I am wrong please correct me)
The PCTs have taken that, twisted it and changed it to no living children - which is a totally different thing. And even then it is not as a couple, it is if one of you has a potential offspring somewhere in the world, whatever their age. How many people lie to get treatment?

I am not saying that IVF should be or should not be provided on the NHS, but if it is then it needs to be fair.


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## hoping :)

hazel-i agree, it is heartbreaking. i cant believe they have twisted the part about having no children living with you, to no living children  thats awful hun. and i knw what u mean, i feel like we are paying for the people on jeremy kyle!!! and it annoys me and really upsets me. i   you get somewhere, and yes u could lie... but like they say, honesty is the best policy, best for who... im unsure!x x


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## coweyes

Just reading through the posts and some of you have stated that you very rarely see the GP and have never used any of the 999 services.  I think you have to consider the people who have underlining health issues.  I am a fit 31 year old who does nothing negative to her health, eg don't drink much, smoke etc.  But i have asthma so there for whether i want to see the Dr or not i get called every 6 months (i think) to see the asthma nurse.  If i was asked to pay for this each time tbh i would obviously reconsider whether i really needed to go!  This would result in reactive care instead of proactive care, which could end up with me in hospital.  If you have not used the health service much then thats excellent but a lot of us don't have that choice.

I know the health service gets a lot of stick but i watched them care for my Dad when he was very very ill, his care was top notch.  I know this does not alter the issue over nhs ivf funding, but lets not forget how grateful we should be for having it, even if we have been lucky enough to not use if much. x


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## michelle83

i don't think funding should be stopped at all the government waste so much money on other things like there expenses that came to light this year paying for people in prison to live the life of Riley did you no everyday the politician's get 15 for lunch thats with out there wages every month my partner works really hard to earn his wages no one gives him a daily allowance for lunch the list is endless on ways they could save money but they don't i believe infertility in my eyes is a illness we don't choose to have it just like people who have cancer don't infertility has affected me for 10 years now and yes i have a life and infertility isn't going to kill me but i feel life with out children is not a life for me and i just feel dead inside I'm sure they can make cut backs in other places and spend more on the nhs  

i through David Cameron was going to stop the postcode lottery and let everyone who needs  treatment have the same number of goes i would love to see proof that he is going to stop the funding


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## Mummytoone

Michelle, that is exactly my impression of the conservatives, they want to stop the postcode lottery not stop NHS IVF, which is much fairer    Like Slinky said our local MP had never heard anything about it being stopped!


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## Mummytoone

Thought this might help

http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2009/08/Shapps_highlights_IVF_postcode_lottery.aspx


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## Mummytoone

Surely its the conservatives that you should be voting for!!?


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

I agree - this report highlights the inequalities - and like I said before - IVF on the NHS or not - that is up for debate - it should be fairly provided throughout the country. Personally my life has been destroyed by my infertility and I suffer a great deal every single day of my life - to the point of wondering if I can carry on - so I think it should be treated.


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## hoping :)

my point, all parties could make cuts else where... like i think the expences, people on benefits, like some 1 else said im jails, rather than giving out ps3's etc. rather than us hard working people, who would like the chance of non essential care, that would be life changing, i think it would b 10% of what we have paid whist ttc in fact with the rest of the tax alot less... yes i would like the chance to concieve before racking up a huge bill (like some of u have mentioned you have.) if i had the money here and now, i would use it in a heartbeat... as i dont, this is why it bothers me. 
and it does seem the people that agree have their children, maybe if i did i wouldnt think much about this topic (infact i would, but it wouldnt actually effect me) and if the people who had their children self funding-good on you, i would love to do that than wait for nhs, if u could have had 1 or 2 goes on the nhs (without a long wait, and saved thousands upon thousands) you wouldnt have done? after working all your adult lives? paying for things u dont use? and if u had to pay for your aftercare, ie birth etc would you still have gone private? or wouldnt that be fair? as people without IF can use nhs for births... after u have paid towards nhs? you can all say ''we paid'' and yet u actually use the nhs to actually have the baby, midwifes, dr's appts, etc, as stated in hazels earlier post. 
and yes the nhs is taken for granted, it is there if and when we need to use it... 
i think IF although not life threatening, is  still a huge impact on ur life, and can be heartbreaking, and a burden you live with every morning and night... and i knw some of u think im wrong for actually wanting tx on the nhs, i think its wrong if im paying for things i can, but dont use... ie schools, random peoples houses, layabouts, expences etc... 
like i said, if each persons case was reviewed... at funding, i would be happy... to show we have paid in, and not took out. and if any of u or ur children need life saving care or hospital care NO I DONT BEGRUDGE YOU THAT, yet some of you think i do. but dont begrudge others the chance of tx on the nhs as you personally paid... if i am wrong i apoligise, but i pay my taxes and the services although limited shouldnt be ruled out. im not asking for cosmetic surgery on the nhs, i am asking for the chance to hold my own baby, and be a mother... the most natural thing in the world.


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## Tama

Hoping - well said    I feel the same way.


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## hoping :)

i have just read the link lulu posted, and if the ivf postcode lottery post is still true, he makes a good point. 
the contract for tories, does say to improve funding, for drugs etc, and to cut waste. providing we as IF sufferers, are not classed as waste.


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## slinkyfish

The whole point of this debate is that it has been started that the conservatives will be stopping IVF on the NHS

Where ever this has come form, it certainly isn't published anywhere in their policies nor do the MP's some of us have spoken too, know anything about it

As LuLu has said, they are the only ones who have stated the whole unfairness of the postcode lottery, with some people getting 3 goes and some none, some being treated with step children and others refused. For those who haven't or can't open the link, this is what it says

'Grant Shapps has called on the Government to end the postcode lottery around the provision of IVF treatment.
A new report from the Conservatives reveals that more than eight out of ten Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) are not offering the full three cycles of IVF treatment as recommended by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE).
And there are also widespread variations between regions:
 
In the East Midlands, all PCTs will offer just one full cycle of treatment. In London, 39% offer one cycle per couple, 26% will provide two and a further 26% fund the full three cycles. 
One in every right PCTs fail to comply with NICE guidelines about the age of the female partner - meaning *a woman could be too old for treatment in one area but too young in another*. 
In the East Midlands, no PCT said they'd offer treatment to couples in which one partner already has a child - whereas 70% of North East PCTs would provide treatment. 
Grant said that IVF "remains a postcode lottery" in this country - and stressed:
"This new research reveals that in 8 out of 10 areas couples will not receive the cycles of IVF recommended by Ministers. Budgets are tight and the NHS must set its priorities, but it is wrong to raise expectations in couples who are desperate to start a family only for them to find out later that they won't get the real help they expected'



So they are looking at stopping inequalities in areas, treating those who have a step child...

I just feel this has been blown out of proportion and people who are anti Tory are sowing a seed and scaremongering. If I was looking for funding I think I'd be voting for them rather than the other 2 parties

As it is I'm not and I still can't decide who to vote for, but this certainly seems a damn sight fairer than what's happening at the moment!


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## slinkyfish

Just for the record, I think we are *all *sick of MP's and their expenses, paying for people to sit on their  at home while we fund them, popping babies into the world and then not taking responsibility for them, fighting wars we shouldn't be involved in that are costing our servicemen and women their lives, working hard all our lives to buy our homes and paying taxes only to have them taken off us because there is no money to pay for our care in later life if we need it. I could go on...
This is what's happened under 'working class' Labour and wasn't what I voted them in for and I wont be voting for them again!


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## slinkyfish

Nice new pink site by the way!!


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## Mother Hen

Slinkyfish


You've done the research, which fits with my understanding of the situation too. The questions are complicated and I, for one, wouldn't like to be the incoming Government (whoever they are) having to make all these tough calls.


I fought very hard to get NHS funding at a private clinic having had a very bad experience at an NHS one. I managed it with the help of my MP (Labour) and had a beautiful baby girl. I'm now self funding for No 2 (over 40). I had a real dilemma about voting this time until my Labour MP announced she was retiring.


I'll be voting Tory this time. It's been a very very hard decision to make but I don't think you can make the decision just based on whether a party supports IVF funding or not. They may support funding it but on the other hand make a decision such as the rise in National Insurance which could cost you or your DH/DP your job....or make the wrong call on education which could seriously affect any child you may have....it's complicated.


I'm not plugging the Tories here at all, I'm just saying I believe the decision has got to be based on more than just this issue and you have to take time to see what people are actually promising across the board as opposed to what the spin, media etc says.


Mother Hen


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## slinkyfish

Mother Hen said:


> It's been a very very hard decision to make but I don't think you can make the decision just based on whether a party supports IVF funding or not. They may support funding it but on the other hand make a decision such as the rise in National Insurance which could cost you or your DH/DP your job....or make the wrong call on education which could seriously affect any child you may have....it's complicated.


Well said hun. However judging by the poll on here there are some who would change their vote based on this issue and it's unfortunate that the facts aren't being presented accurately. This is a very important issue understandably, to a lot of people on here, but in my opinion I agree, you can't base your vote on this single issue alone.

Let's hope everyone gets a BFP soon xx


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## AmandaB1971

Due to the heated nature of this thread I have been keeping a close eye on it to safeguard the sites legal position.  However, I just want to clarify one point which is that you ALL use the Police, just because you don't call them out or see them face to face in your own home or even your own street every day you benefit from living in a civilised society which would not be that way if we didn't have laws and law enforcers!

Amanda xxx


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## TGA22

Such good posts, I totally agree with Asabel Snow Drop and Alex22.  
xx


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

Absolutely Amanda!

Like we all use the defence service and the civil service. The place would be in complete disarray without all the services run for the benefit of the whole society. The country would be invaded if there wasn't an army. You can argue as to how much we should get involved in other countries, but we rely on being defended. These people need to be highly trained and ready to go at any moment.

Just because you have never called an ambulance does not mean that you do not expect there to be one if you fell ill. Like you would expect there to be staff in A+E, theatres, ICU. You would expect there to be a bed for you and a specialist for whatever was wrong and for there to be drugs on the shelf and promptly given to you.

If your house caught fire you would expect to ring 999.

I saw a woman being bundled into a car and shouted at by a big man at the station last week. Concerned for her safety I called the police and they were on the scene in 5 minutes.

What I am saying is that I pay a lot of tax and I am fed up with lots of spongers using the services, often never contributing themselves. Believe me, I treat many of them everyday in my job. Lots of self inflicted injuries and illness that waste lots of money and are unnecessary if people would just have a conscience and behave themselves.

Then when I need help with something ruining my life, making me contemplate giving up life, despite working very hard and contributing, I am turned away, whereas other people in the country get treatment given to them free under the exact same personal circumstances, and it is all due to made up rules. It is not fair. It is unjust.


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## isobel snow drop

Absolutely Hopeful Hazel- I totally agree with all you have said. You have been through so much xxx

Slinky-As you'll already know the Tories supported the wars that WE started in other countries so we would still been in the same position as we are now.

Happy voting today everyone!!!!


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## slinkyfish

Hopeful Hazel said:


> What I am saying is that I pay a lot of tax and I am fed up with lots of spongers using the services, often never contributing themselves. Believe me, I treat many of them everyday in my job. Lots of self inflicted injuries and illness that waste lots of money and are unnecessary if people would just have a conscience and behave themselves.


Without doubt there is a % of people who are spongers, don't look after themselves, do stupid things, get into trouble etc. I too having worked for the NHS for over 20 years (oh God, is it really that long?  ), I too have looked after people who fall into the 'self inflicted' group. I worked in a Liver Intensive Care Unit for many years looking after people who have overdosed, abused drugs alcohol and other substances. Some were indeed a waste of tax payers money BUT the vast majority, when you scratch beneath the surface, had terrible social backgrounds of abuse spanning years and this is how they coped with it. It's easy to condemn these people, I have aways had loving parents, a roof over my head, food on the table etc I have never been subjected to any off this and have no idea what I would have done if I had. What needs to be addressed in my opinion are the root causes, the main one I think is to make parents responsible for the children they bring into the world, help people come to terms with years of abuse or neglect, looking at dealing with binge drinking. As for smoking, my teenage Nieces and Nephews tell me it's 'soooooo not cool!', so I think we're getting there slowly. However we are still dealing with a generation who thought it was cool or were even told it was good for them which is what happened in the years when cigarettes were first sold! I ran a COPD clinic when I was a Respiratory Nurse and that's why a lot of my older patients started, as it was advertised as a stress reliever and safe until people started getting lung cancer and COPD! I also think we need to re think schooling as not every child is academic and can feel worthless with this very academic curriculum we have and have parents who do nothing to support them. They then become disruptive and are lost in the system, labled useless and become our future criminals. Not everyone who's abused turns to abusing themselves, but with out doubt a large % do. Are they all spongers and time wasters?

*Isobel snow drop* - I totally agree with you, the Tories would have supported the war - I don't agree with them on that either as I don't think we should have gone in, full stop! If you had read my posts you'll see that I am not standing up for the Tories, just pointing out that they are not stating they are withdrawing IVF on the NHS which is what the thread is about (or was) I would ideally like to pick policies from each party as some I agree with and others I strongly disagree with. Maybe a Hung Parliament is the best way to go but that then leaves Mr Brown at no 10 and that really puts me off. I think any party who'd been in power at that time the war started would have supported the US, despite what they may say. This is because we are now so dependant on the USA and need them, having let all our skills and manufacturing walk out of the door and abroad because the govt hasn't supported them over the years

Will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings...


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## Hollybags

It's IMPOSSIBLE to say that any particular party will cut fertility funding. It's not written in any manifesto for a start, and as Slinky said earlier, this sounds like ill-informed scaremongering.

Notwithstanding this, even if the governing party DID want to cut fertility services across the country, it'd actually be very hard to do without also having an enormous overhaul of the way in which services are commissioned and funded. 

Basically speaking, it's like this: Each PCT makes decisions on what it'll fund for it's own population. For more specialised services like fertility, they club together, and the decision is commissioned via the Strategic Health Authority. This is how the postcode lottery happens - the thrust of the current NHS is autonomy at local level, heading towards individual trusts becoming financially independent and self governing. So, if an area decides not to fund fertility and puts their money into say, heart disease, then they're within their rights to do that, so long as the books balance. They have to attempt to satisfy at least some of NICE guidence but they can choose to do this by making it hard to get to the actual service - eg insisting that you're trying to conceive for x number of years, or must be over or under a particular age - they're all hoops to jump through to ensure that only the most needy get the treatment, as statistically many people will get pregnant whilst they're waiting for treatment. 

If the government were to make a country-wide blanket rule in relation to fertility services, they would effectively be undermining the authority and autonomy of the local PCT/SHA. It's a real tension point - national priorities vs local ones.


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## slinkyfish

That's really interesting reading Holly, I had no idea how it all worked xx


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## hoping :)

well ladies after many days of heated chats and us all trying to put the world or at least uk to rights... Its all over... Who ever gets in, i just hope and prey funding isnt stopped for ivf... And i also hope if we are lucky enough to keep it, that it is equal for all.  Good luck to all the ladies who are going through, or awaiting tx... I hope we r all able to achieve our dreams x x


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## slinkyfish

I just wanted to say too that I really, really hope you all get your much wanted families. It's been really interesting reading everyone's views xx


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## keeley ;-)

hung parliament! wonder how that goes!


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## Mother Hen

Hi all


Well a hung parliament - kind of sums up my day really, as despite 2 increases in my oestrogen, my 3rd scan this a.m. showed my lining is STILL not thick enough to proceed to ET. Rats, rats and more rats..  


Anyway, what will be will be....both in Government and here in the murky world of IF. Good luck all you ladies, whatever stage you're at. We all deserve for our dreams to come true   


Mother Hen
x


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## isobel snow drop

Good luck Mother Hen


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## slinkyfish

Oh God just heard on radio about possibly having another election, please don't say we'll have go through all this again in 9 months time!   

Good luck Mother Hen


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## isobel snow drop

Yup thats what I heard too slinky, as much as I dont want to I do think this has been good to give them all a kick up the **** and to show them they can't take us for granted


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## slinkyfish

Here, here!


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## mrspaddy

David Cameron is now PM, I'm now getting really stressed that he will scrap fertility treatment on the NHS. Our hopes of starting a family will be crushed!


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## vickym1984

Mrs Paddy-as a lot of people have said on here, for the Tories to do that would be such a U Turn, as they have been the pushers of getting rid of the lottery postcode. I've always said, being in a PCT that currently do the 3 cycles, I would be happy to give 1 up so that places with none or 1 could have another one, obv it doesn't work like that, but I wish I did, its so unfair xx


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## keeley ;-)

as much as i am worried about this situation, it cant really get much worse then is was! and who know, we may end up with 10 million extra jobs and all be able to go private lol.  PMA PMA lol


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## Ginger Baby

Hi all

Well I was at my local docotors yesterday and my GP said that they are going to make really brutal cuts on the NHS and one of the things they are looking at cutting is IVF funding because it is not life threatening and also funding for cancer drugs.  She said with the cancer drugs if it costs £40,000 for a cancer drug that will only give you an extra 6 months to live you will probably not get it.  

She said they are looking at lots of things and she said she doesn't want to be working for the NHS anymore if all the cuts that have been banded about take place.

Ginger Baby


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## vickym1984

Ginger Baby-I think she may just be anti Tori, they are increasing NHS funding in real terms year on year.


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## Hollybags

Ginger Baby said:


> Hi all
> 
> Well I was at my local docotors yesterday and my GP said that they are going to make really brutal cuts on the NHS and one of the things they are looking at cutting is IVF funding because it is not life threatening and also funding for cancer drugs. She said with the cancer drugs if it costs £40,000 for a cancer drug that will only give you an extra 6 months to live you will probably not get it.
> 
> She said they are looking at lots of things and she said she doesn't want to be working for the NHS anymore if all the cuts that have been banded about take place.
> 
> Ginger Baby


Sorry, I think your GP is talking rubbish. There's no way she, or anyone else, will know what the Tory LibDem coalition will do. That's the downside of a hung parliament - it makes policy even more difficult to predict.


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## hoping :)

gingerbaby-that was along the lines of what i heard too... I have waited 3months for patient info eve letter and the most others hav waited is 9weeks -an that is inc the info eve... Somethin is goin on, and yes they r going to up nhs funding yr on yr... It doesnt mean it applies to ivf... As others hav stated it is classed as non-essensial treatment, and tories hav said they will cut 'waste' on nhs. I hope and pray it isnt true, i really do... Ive waited 2.5yrs to get to where i am now,  i just hope with cam's wife having a baby-they dont begrudge us that chance... X


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## coweyes

Tbh i dont think GPs know al ot about ivf or ivf funding, my lovely Gp does not, mainly because its such a specialist subject.  Do you know how much funding your intitled to at the moment? one cycle ore more? Dont forget its going to take some time for them to actually decided where they want to make the cuts and then put it into place.  The ivf process does not not that long, about 6 weeks so if your on the brink on it i would try not to worry. x


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## keeley ;-)

i just saw in the sun that they wont be reviewing it until the autumn, and even then they cant just click there fingers and end it. defo will be no change this year i think. so thats enough time for 2 fresh and 1 frozen i would say


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## hoping :)

omg-thanks guys, i    that is true... hope to get my letter soon    good luck to all...x x


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## coweyes

Hoping, not worth stressing yourself out about something that may concern you any way.  Save all your energy for your treatment, good luck with it. xxxxxxxxxxx


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## Ginger Baby

Hiya everyone

Well I get two funded goes maximum. I saw my GP on Tuesday and that was before we knew who we were getting in governement.  She just said that who ever gets in are going to have to make brutal cuts on the NHS.  She said it was on the cards whoever gets in.  I hope you are all right and that they will not cut the IVF funding.  I think we all deserve at least one funded go.  I also know that from speaking to people on this site that there are so many restrictions on who gets funding and so many people who go private cos they have the money and don't want to wait that I can't see them saving much money from cutting the funding.  If I had the money I would go private.

I hope to get my 2 funded goes and if they don't work pay for a go.  But will only be able to pay for one because me and my husband have jobs and manage to pay our bills and mortgage but have no savings.  So I will probably have to get a loan or something.

Lets keep our fingers crossed that they don't cut the funding and that they just make it fair that we all get the same amount of funded attempts.

Good luck to everyone

Take care

Ginger Baby


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## slinkyfish

Hollybags said:


> Ginger Baby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Well I was at my local docotors yesterday and my GP said that they are going to make really brutal cuts on the NHS and one of the things they are looking at cutting is IVF funding because it is not life threatening and also funding for cancer drugs. She said with the cancer drugs if it costs £40,000 for a cancer drug that will only give you an extra 6 months to live you will probably not get it.
> 
> She said they are looking at lots of things and she said she doesn't want to be working for the NHS anymore if all the cuts that have been banded about take place.
> 
> Ginger Baby
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I think your GP is talking rubbish. There's no way she, or anyone else, will know what the Tory LibDem coalition will do. That's the downside of a hung parliament - it makes policy even more difficult to predict.
Click to expand...

I doubt even they know what the cuts will be as yet and I think your GP should have kept these unhelpful opinions to herself. Worry when you know for sure and remember, as Holly has said in a previous post, IVF funding is decided by your PCT and not the govt


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## coweyes

Ginger baby The waiting lists are not half as long as they used to be.  The specialist at our local hosp said i needed icis, he appealed to the special medical board (or what ever its called!)  I got a letter back with in 2 weeks.  I spoke to the ivf clinic that we were going to use and they reasurred me that there is no waiting list but it does take a bit of time as there is a lot of paperwork involved etc.  It takes about 2 months, we had to wait longer as they found a big cyst.  


So you get 2 fresh cycles, do you get any frozen if there able to freeze any from your fresh cycles?  I was told i was in titled to 2 fresh and up to 2 frozen, but i was not aware of this until i got to the ivf clinic.  I would check as it may be a possibility for you to.  Hopefully you will not need it but if you do its there.  As you can see from my signature i have not been successful on my fresh cycles but had just had 1 blasto put back on a frozen cycle.xxxxx


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## cosmicgirl

I've decided to take a positive outlook about this until I hear otherwise as stress isn't a good thing.


The new health secretary is Andrew Lansley who is also MP for South Cambs...which contains Bourn Hall Clinic.  I did a bit of googling and on his website there's a photo of him at Bourn Hall and I'm hoping he'll have some vested (biased) interest in IVF.  I also found that previously while in opposition he was very keen for all PCT's to offer 3 free goes so it's making me think he's pro IVF....just got to hope he can argue a good arguement when they do start looking at cuts.


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## keeley ;-)

cosmicgirl-good looking out,    x


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## Ginger Baby

Hi All

Well I had my final scan today and only got two folliclels so will probably have 2 eggs at the most, going for egg collection on Monday.  I was on long protocol last time and only produced two follicels so cycle was abandoned, on short protocol this time and produced the same amount so been told to go for egg collection as there is nothing more they can do to make me produce more.

I will deffo ask them about if I will get any frozen cycle funded goes, but I have always been told I would have 2 funded fresh goes and frozen was not mentioned.  It is mentioned briefly in one of the leaflets and says we may be able to freeze some embryos but there may be a charge and to ask about the costs.

To be honest if I can only produce 2 follicles, I may not have spare any embryos to freeze anyway.

I am trying to stay positive.  Just hope it all works out for us all.

Take Care

Ginger Baby


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## hoping :)

ginger baby- + + + pma for mon hunny +++ cant do smilies on my fone... Good luck x x


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## Pigloo

Sorry to butt in here but surely its up to each PCT to decide what areas they decide to make cuts in once they receive their annual budgets, not for David Cameron to say there is no money for IVF across the board.  Thats why some areas have 1 funded go others 2 and some of the lucky ones (of which i am one) 3 funded goes as PCTs have priorities and some will have IVF funding way down in the pecking order.  Obviously if budgets are cut then priorities will change but maybe that will mean fewer goes not a total freeze on IVF tx.

Pigloo x


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## Ginger Baby

Thanks Hoping.  I am trying to keep positive and as my DH keeps saying we only need one egg to become embryo divide properly and stick with me.  Hes a little trooper, bless him.  Are you still waiting to try at the moment ?

Thanks Pigloo for your input too.  I think I just worry too much.  I am a born worrier !!!


Take care

Ginger Baby


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## hoping :)

ur dh is right, 1 sticky bean hun!!! And who knws u may end up with twins!!! +++ keep up the pma +++ waiting for info eve letter...!!! And as u knw, start frm there... Cant wait to get started x x


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## Ginger Baby

Thanks for the PMA Hoping.

Hope you get your letter soon.

Take Care

Ginger Baby


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