# Not sure where I'm at.



## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

hello, I'm Ermey. We recently finshed our 4th unsuccessful ICSI. We have a follow-up appointment this Friday, where we think we'll be told to give it up. We half want to give up, but are also terrified to do so, we are half ready and half not ready. I sort of want the decision to be taken out of our hands, but am also terrified of that happening.

I have been lurking on these boards, but I guess I haven't posted before because I don't feel ready to see myself as 'moving on' - more like I'm approachin the end of tx, and hanging around in limbo licking my wounds, wondering when I will feel ok about moving on. Guess it comes back to that feeling of choice again. 

My head is such a muddle at times. We keep discussing adopting eventually, but sometimes I catch myself thinking that I like things the way they are, just me and my darling DH. then I feel so guilty and selfish, and at other times I feel like I am being torn apart by the pain of IF.  Theres such a strong profound and insticnctive need to have my own children, yet I sometimes catch myself looking at others and I worry that I am too selfish to be a mum, I have got used to having my own space, and breathing time, and flexible life-style. 

Sometimes people on FF congratulate each other by saying 'no one deserves it more than you because you never gave up' and I think what about me? Does that mean I haven't got a BFP because I didn't want it enough? Is it my fault? Did my body somehow know that 1% of my mind wasn't committed? Does it mean I should carry on and on and on, and risk destroying mysef in the process?

Sometimes on the tx threads people are so intent on maintaining positivity which is wonderful and the right approach at times, but there comes a point when positivity just isn't enough and you have to acknowledge that the obstacles are too many and too big, and start to get to grips with it. Hope this isn't offending anyone, its just how I feel about my situation.

I am fed up of obsessing about tx and IF, I want my mind and my life and normality back.
I feel guilty saying these things. I guess I should turn it around and celebrate what I have got that my friends haven't, but I can't get past that pain of what I can't have. Perhaps I'm just not ready. 

E xxx


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## karen j (May 19, 2004)

Hi Ermey

just to say a quick hello and sending lots of 

I think I know exactly how you feel.
I was told some time ago that I was going through the menopause (I'm still only 34)
I was devastated, I'd meet the man of my dreams and we were planning to move in together, we never actually planned children, but if it happened it would be great.
When I found out I had pof I was gutted. I would do everything to have a child. I had all the test etc, I was gonna stay positive. Then the day came when I was told the only way I would have kids was to have donor eggs.This was when I stopped being so positive, it would be at least three years to find a suitable donor through the NHS. People told me not to give up, go abroad for D.E.
I couldn't afford the last option. Family would say why don't you adopt, yeah like its that easy.
Thats when it dawned on me why was I finding objections to all these ideas?
What if we waited the three years, we would still only be 37, but by then would we have built a life around just the two of us, could we adjust to the BIG changes a baby would bring, would we have grown to selfish to make these changes??

We spent months agonising over these thoughts, thats when I made one of the biggest decisions of my life, we took our names off the waiting list for Donor Eggs.

Have we made the right decision? I don't know, but what I do know at this moment in time it was right for now.
I found that we can get on with our lives. We live each day as it comes. But don't think it as been easy, I still think about it, not as much and we now know that we've got some normality back.

So in short , now that Ive rambled on, is, no you are not selfish, I think you've been through a hell of alot in your lives and maybe now is the time to move on to a new chapter in your lives, you can always go back to tx if you want, but don't forget we are only here for a short time, GO AND CELEBRATE WHAT YOU HAVE,  maybe with a little breathing space you will find your own answers.

Sorry to preach, hope this as helped alittle bit.
Karen j


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Dear Ermey

I really felt for you when I read your post. It’s not surprising your head is in a muddle after all that you’ve both been through.

Your 4 previous attempts didn’t fail because you were not committed enough (although I felt exactly the same way after our third failed attempt) and I would encourage you not to feel guilty about wanting your life back, in my book it’s a perfectly natural and sane response to a process that takes a considerable emotional (and financial) toll.  

In my own search for peace I’ve come to understand that it is possible to have perfectly reasonable conflicting emotions: you can love your life as it is with just you and your lovely dh but also be troubled by your IF issues.  The first doesn’t make you selfish and the second doesn’t mean you have to destroy yourself in the endless pursuit drifting along in a cloud of blind optimism. 

Regardless of the outcome on Friday,  it sounds like you have a wonderful relationship with your dh and a good life (which is something to celebrate) and with time, the conflicting emotions can resolve themselves.

flipper


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Dear Ermy
I have just read your posting and like Flipper i am so touched by what you have written. I think you have expressed so many honest feelings and i think its one of the most touching posts that i have read in a long time. 
I can understand so much about what you have said, about facing things on friday with your follow up appointment. I hope you do not mind me bringing myself into this, but i felt the same way last year. I just wanted the consultant to take the decision out of my hands, to say its over. I know this might sound strange, but it was a relief when we left the room. A relief to feel me again, and never to go through the humiliation of treatment ever again..no more disappointments...to laugh, drink wine and just enjoy life has been a positive since making the decision..
The point that you raised about no one deserves it more than you do? The thing is we are all different, as much as we have IF in common, we are all unique individuals. We have all tried as hard as we could and as my hubby says 'we tried to be a mother and we tried harder than most'..but sadly it doesn't always work out for us all. There comes a time when we make decisions, with the peace of mind that we did the best we could.
I am so glad that you have a special hubby and i am sure between the two of you, you will get through this difficult time. As you say there are lots of wonderful things about your life at the moment to enjoy. There are other options, but sometimes we just need take time out for ourselves...
Goodluck with whatever decision you both come to.....to get through this far says alot about your strength of character.I would also like to say Welcome onto this thread, there are some great supportive girls...We will be there for you....
Also hello to karen and welcome...your strength is amazing, i was so taken aback by your posting also....i am sure its been an agonising few months...i admire you...!!!  
lots of love astridxx


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## irisheyes (Feb 2, 2005)

Just wanted to say i understand. The thoughts are always there about going for more treatment. My mum doesnt really understand why we wont do any more- i have explained that it has taken up nearly 7 years of our lives since we got married.We feel we need to move on but it will always hit us especially when someone else announces a pg etc.  But i suppose as long as i know i can get thru the bad days we are surviving.

Good luck xxxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Thank you everyone for making me feel welcome, and for your nice replies. Every single one of you has said somehing that has touched me and helped me.

Its so important to realise that others out there like you know how I feel. Since our tx failed I have felt lost on FF, not knowing who out there understod, while all my usual threads are dominated by talk of current tx or tx plans for the future. 

It helps me to know that its ok to have conflicting feelings, and that its normal to still wonder whether we should keep going despite knowing the emotional cost. I want so much to be at peace with my/our decision, I guess it just takes time, and its really good to realise that there may always be that doubt, because then we can tackle it by accepting that it is normal. I'm so glad someone understands about that feeling of relief!! I'm longing to be at that point but I am scared and know that with the relief may come devastation.

You are all so brave in your indivdual ways, and you give me hope that I can get through.

Karen, you don't sound like you were preaching. I can so relate to how hard the decision must have been for you to take your name off the waiting list. We still have a tiny amount of very poor sperm in the freezer, and part of me wishes it wasn't there, as the chances of it bringing our dream are so tiny (facing the facts again!) but we are not yet brave enough to have it destroyed. i don't want it to be a ball and chain around us, but I know how much it means to DH that it exists, after all we went through to find it.

Thanks so much to everyone. Hope we can chat again. Is there a regular thread you hang out on, and if so, can I come and play?  

E xxx


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi Ermey,

I'm glad you feel you've found the support you need on here.  The girls here are all brilliant - I dont know where I would have been this past year without them, honestly.

I'm sorry about all you've been through and the difficult decision you're faced with regarding continuing with tx or not.  If it's any consolation, I too have noticed I've been having conflicting feelings recently.  I don't know if its just my bodies'/minds' coping mechanism after all our failures or if its just down to the simple fact that I'm ABSOLUTELy shattered with all of this, and tired thinking/talking/living it.

When I think our only options now are adoption or egg donation, I'll catch myself looking at people in the street with kids and thinking, "God, can I be bothered?"  That sounds terrible but if I'm honest, its what I've been thinking.  Perhaps its just because these options were never really part of the original plan ..............

I think the most important thing is to give yourself time, have a breather - try to completely switch off from it (near impossible I know) but maybe this will allow you to think things through in a few months, with a clear head?

I really empathise with you, the thought of going through more heartache for absolutely nothing is so painful.

Good luck, and feel free to "come and play" any time!!
Love Gill xo


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Just a quick thought Ermey re what's in the freezer, you can actively decide to do nothing for quite some time. At this point you don't have to take the enormous emotional leap to destroy - you can decide to leave it just where it is and see how you get on.  In time, that's another decision that can make itself in the background whilst you're getting on with living your life rather than being a patient.

Good luck for Friday.


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## Megan10 (Jul 16, 2004)

Ermey sweetie,
I have not posted for ages apart from a short good luck to a couple of people, not since we both went through our last failed cycles. I am so sorry you are feeling so bad. 

What can I say, you have been to hell and back. Not only the pain of a failed ICSI but the strain of getting through each hurdle to get eggs and sperm and then to fall at the last step and not even get the chance of the 2WW. 

I do so understand the junction you find yourself at, sometimes to me it feels more like the top of the cliff. Do you jump into thin air and hope the parachute opens to let you drift through a lovely childfree life or do you scramble back through the thorney bushes to the tx path? 

I have absolutely no idea what the right choice is, it will be different for each of us. However I totally identify with that feeling that to stop would be such a relief. Personally I feel so bl**dy old and tired of the whole thing but at the same time don't know if I can live with the 'what if' of not trying again. 

I totally understand when you say it would be a relief. I long for my life back, of being to plan ahead, clear my head of this obsession and find a new path in life with my lovely DP. DE is not for us and I just don't know how I feel about adoption. Its so hard and takes so long. I am not sure if I have the strength. Also there are so few young children even available - only 205 under the age of 1 across the whole of Britain in 2005 and so many very damaged children needing enormous care.  I know there are older children who so need a good home but I don't know if I am selfless enough and I could never risk letting a child down by being less than 100% sure, it would break my heart. 

You are right too about the positivity. It is done for all the right reasons by people who truely care but sometimes it puts enormous pressure on us. I convinced myself that my first treatment failed because I wasn't positive enough. My counsellor told me that she sees highly positive, neutral and negative attiudes and has never seen a correlation with the final outcome! Sometimes a bit of heathly realism is a good coping mechanism. At the end of the day we are dealing with biology and science and sadly the human body is not perfect in its function. Also despite all we have gone through it is understandable we have doubts. 'Normal' fertility friends have told me they felt a mixture of joy and dread when they found they were pregnant. Its such a fundamental change to your life. 

Ermey, I juts wanted you to know I understand. I hope Friday is bearable and brings you some help in moving forward.
Thinking of you and all the other lovely girls on this thread,
Love MeganXXXX


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Hello Ermey...
Our thoughts are with you on friday!!!!
Lots of love astridxxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Thank you girls  

I feel exhausted with it all too. I think Gill you are definately right that we need a break, and to not think about it if possible. We think that if tomorrow the consultant says we are ok to do another tx (think this is unliekly) then he will definately say we should do it as soon as possible. If thats the case then its just tough luck. We have been talking a lot, and feel its time to put ourselves in front of our quest, just for once, instead of the other way round.
We think we will do exactly what Flipper suggests - keep the sperm for now, and postpone deciding for as long as we need. Flipper - I like the idea of it deciding itself in the background, while we carry on with normal life!

megan - lovely to hear from you, and sorry you have been feeling down too. I know what you mean about adoption...we think this will be what we pursue eventually, but are not ready yet. I too have wondered if I have got the strength, both physically (esp as I have M.E) and mentally. And I am scared of being rejected, and discouraged by the statistics. Still, we may feel a whole lot different in a year or twos time. When we do, I have to be sure I'm not looking for 'my' child if you see what I mean, and am ready to accept them as themselves.  

About the 'positivity' issue. You are exactly right, I know people mean well, and I don't mean to be ungrateful as it helped me enormously during the tx process, but I feel like now I am in a new place with a new dawn, and need to approach things in a new way....and that means being honest with myself and DH.

Astrid thanks for the good luck wishes. Am supressing my nerves and emotions! 
Think you are off on holiday soon? Hope you have a lovely time!

Sorry for another mega-post, thank you all for your support, I am so glad I've found you all.

E xx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hello

We had our follow-up appt at the clinic on Friday, where things finally have come to a close. As well as our sperm issues, apparently my eggs were very poor quality, and any future attempts would need to use donor eggs. We have 2 frozen straws of sperm left but don't know whats in them except that its a maximum of 6 sperm, if any, and very very poor quality.

So, we no longer have the dream of having our biological child. The options are donor eggs and probably donor sperm as well, or adoption. Although we knew the road was almost at an end, we are still heartbroken, numb, and lost. We are making no decisions till after I graduate next summer.

I'm glad to have somewhere to post on this new stage of our IF journey.

E xx


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

Hi Ermey

Tonight - I am sooooooo sad also.

I feel your pain.  this is such a HUGE thing to have to try and come to terms with.  I know I have known of this for years yet tonight, years later, i sit in tears as i write this post.

Granted i've had a few drinks but I get really p***ed off that no-one will ever understand this pain.

i'm so sorry you are having to come to terms with this aswell.

I am just finised my 4th cycle of "immunology" tx and our last hope is donor eggs.  To be honest, weve been through so much i dont know if i can cope with any more failures.

I thought i was doing OK recently - then i spent the day with my brothers' lovely little girl (1.5 years)  - MY DAD poured me huge drinks and here i am back home crying my eyes out because of the pain of knowing I'll never having my own "biological" child and i dont know  WHY!!!!

I can only empathise with you on this whole experienc and journey ...........

It is hellish..

If you need to talk/rant/rave/cry,

We're here for your pet.  
Love Gill xo


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanks Gill. Its a relief to be in touch with others who understand. Even though we thought they'd say no more tx, I wasn't prepared for how different it is when they actually do say it. I realise now that I'd been hoping that door would stay ajar, letting in some light, even if we didn't want to go through it. Now the door has slammed shut, and its somehow seems very real and very big: its official - we will never have our own child.     

I can't get my head around the fact that the last 2 years we have been discussing how we feel about donor sperm, and now we have a tiny bit of DH's sperm, but we can't use my eggs. I feel different about myself somehow. DH and my mum won't accept that theres anything wrong with my eggs.... I feel so frustrated like they don't understand how hurt and upset I am that my body has failed me. I know I am not infertile like DH, but we're in a bizaare sitution in that its my eggs that have stopped us.  

I feel lost and lonely, because I was never comfortable about using donor sperm, and now I'm being asked to consider donor eggs, or even both. I don't know anyone else on here who feels this way about donor, as most of my FF have seen it as their way forward...(although I know they must have battled with huge issues about it), but I'm not sure they saw it as the end of the road in the way I do. I seem to have more of a block. Also, I know exactly what you mean about not being able to face anymore failures....each one hurts a little bit more, and I need some stability in my life.

Gill, I'm so sorry you are feeling so down, and hurting so much. i really understand. I have a simply beautiful 1 year old nephew, the son of a much loved male cousin. I get cravings to see him, and when I see him he fills a hole inside of me, but after I hand him back, the hole opens even more painfully. I'm so sorry that there seems no answers for you about why, and what next.

Thanks for being here, sorry for going on a long waffle.


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## Bangle21 (Dec 17, 2004)

Ermey, Please dont apologise for posting, we are here for you any time,

I so understand what you're saying about your nephew filling a gap and then widening it painfully again when you have to say goodbye.  It hurts so much and no-body understands..........

Regarding the donor egg thing, I also understand the need to grieve your own "biological" child, the fear of failures, the fear of "bonding" ... it's all so overwhelming.

I hope you can take the time you need to think things through, and who knows, once you get your head round it all, a "different" door may stay ajar for you huni,

Take care of yourself
Love Gill xo


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Hi Ermey, I agree with Gill, take as much time as you need to think things through because you've got an awful lot to deal with there. I'm so sorry you've taken such a beating. You've had to deal with your dh's issues and now you have to deal with your own. Very tough indeed. 

If it's any consolation you're not alone on the donor front. 

My brother and his wife have two children via donor sperm and whilst I love and adore my nieces, it's not something I would consider for myself. As you say, simply not comfortable with it. They asked my why I wasn't comfortable and I couldn't give a "proper" answer, I just knew it wasn't a solution for me, happy though I am for them.  We're all different, just because something is medically possible doesn't mean it's right for you.

flipper


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Ermey, I am so sorry to read all of everything you have been through, and are going through.

I think there are loads of things that are hurting you at the moment, understandably so. IF really is a lonely path to tread, but as you can see from the lovely ladies here it is not something you have to journey on your own with.

I know it is bad for you now, but I promise you, one day when you have had the chance to grieve and lick your wounds you will come through this a stronger person. I am not saying the hurts or the pains or the aching in your heart will ever fully go away, they won't but you learn to live with them in your own way, and I am not trying to offer you hope for the future because I know at the moment your future as you hoped it may be is gone, and that also takes some grieving for.

That for me was the hardest thing of all, grieving for the future that I wanted for myself and my DH - and this is something that no-one understands unless they have been through IF. But - I feel we have turned a corner, and we are trying our best to look forward with our lives. I/we still have bad days when I just want to stay in bed and hide away from the world.

I have found talking to the ladies here really helps. They are all so wise and compassionate, and there is always someone around to give you their perspective, and best of all they really do understand where you are coming from.

Sorry for waffling on, I just wanted to acknowledge you and to let you know I am thinking of you whilst you go through this.

Lots of love
Emcee x


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## irisheyes (Feb 2, 2005)

So sorry ermey (and Gill)  I know what you mean about the eggs thing. I have recently been told that mine are getting old too  as my fsh levels are elevated and the specialist doesnt think i will benefit from clomid at this stage.I will know for def when i phone next week. I noticed 4 yrs ago that my hormone levels were up and down with my day 21 results and i am annoyed that no-one prescribed it to me when my eggs were younger!!! 

It is hard to come to terms with. Takes a lot of time. I wouldnt use donor eggs and my dh wasnt even keen on ivf because of the keft over embryos which he feels were "babies".

Good luck xxxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hello everyone.

Am going around in a haze feeling nothing at all at the moment. I keep waiting for some kind of grief to hit me like a bolt of lightening. It all feels very flat and defeated. I guess theres a sense of anti-climax too...like we've had nearly 3 years of intense stress and anxiety and only for nothing at all, just a big emptiness.

Flipper - thanks for sharing with me your own feelings about donor sperm/eggs. I'm relieved someone understand as I have been feeling a bit worried about it, like I am being selfish or something. Like you, I honestly don't have a problem with other people choosing that route...I admire them, and part of me wishes i could be ok with the idea so that I could have that door open to me and DH. Can I ask you, how did your DH feel about donor?? DH and I are unusual in that he says he's ok with it, but I'm the one who's not. I feel like I am closing a door for him too. I have promised not to make any decsions yet, and to try and consider the idea as openly as possible, but I already sense in my heart of hearts that its is v.unlikely that I will feel comfortable about it.

Gill and Irisheyes, so sorry about your eggs. Its hard to see your eggs as 'getting old', especially when the rest of your body is not very old. I'm only 32, and look very young for my age,  so find it all very strange to think I have reduced ovarian reserve. Mind you, I feel flippin old these days!

Gill - hope you are feeling less sad today.

lots of love 

E x


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Hi Ermey
I have just read your posting and i am so sorry that you have been made to face this difficult situation. Its so hard when that choice has been taken out of your hands..I really feel for you..
I can definately relate to that feeling of numbness, i personally felt that also when we were told the only option was donor eggs. I couldn't believe it was happening to us. I kept walking around and thinking this was happening to someone else, but i was to scared of facing the reality of it all...
I hope you do not mind me suggesting, but rather than facing it all to quickly its probably easier to take one day at a time. You are not taking onto much pressure and you are dealing with each issues as it arises. Maybe think of going for counselling?
Also more importantly to take time out for you and your hubby. There are other options for the future, but i am not sure you can persue them until you find away to deal with your own grieve and loss...( i don't think we totally except it, but learn to cope and live with it). Once you have found that path, you will beable to make new decisions for your future....
Keep in there Ermey you have been brave so far...
Gill a big hug for you, you know where i am also if you want to chat...so sorry it has also come to this for you both....you are certainly a strong person, because you always find some strength from somewhere....
Lots of love astridxx


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Hi Ermey

How's it going? Being out of treatment probably takes more time to get used to than you would ever believe.

To specifically answer your question, my dh was relaxed about using donor sperm, I wouldn't say wildly keen I don't think but was more than happy to go along with it.

My SIL said in passing one day that when she looks at her children, she can't help but think about their biological father. That was the killer for me. I decided I actively didn't want to introduce that kind of dynamic to my marriage and it's a very personal hard to explain thing. I'm still happy that I've/we've made the right decision _for us._

I'd endorse the comments of the others, take it one day at a time.

flipper


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi Flipper (love the name!)

Thanks for your kind and wise words. At the moment I don't really feel much at all, which I guess is a defence mechanism. I'm mostly carrying on with normal life, feeling like this has happened to somebody else...very detached; no emotions. Its only been just over 2 weeks (though it feels like a lot longer) so I guess its early days.

I have exams at the moment which are keeping me very busy, which is a good thing in some ways, but I have a feeling that its just postponing all the emotion till later. I submitted 'mitigating evidence' of impaired performance for my recent essays, becuse they were during the IVF, and DH wants me to do the same for my exams..... but I feel like a fraud because I don't really feel anything. He says that I should submit evidence anyway becuase I never know when it will suddenly hit me.

I was driving down my road on Monday and went past a girl I used to work with, she's 6 years younger then me, and I was trying for a baby before she was even married...and there she was walking down the road with a toddler and a new born baby. That hit me quite hard.

Thanks for sharing with me about the donor issue. I completely agree, it sounds very like my own feelings on the matter...for me personally I've always felt like we would be letting other people into our marriage. Our marriage is so strong and special I don't feel comfortable...it makes me feel too complicated. And I completely agree that this is just how I feel about it for us and this is no criticism of others who feel its is right for them. maybe in time I'll change my mind and I've promised DH to try and consider it objectively (if thats possible?).

This has turned into a long waffle!!

Thanks again for your support.

E xxx


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