# Domicile status for UK citizens living abroad



## HEC (Mar 26, 2011)

Hello everyone
Thanks for all the useful information from everyone on surrogacy.
We are hoping to proceed with trying for a baby through surrogacy in Georgia in the very near future. We would be using an unmarried surrogate and my husband would be the biological father so would appear on the birth certificate with the surrogate mother. We would apply for a British passport for the baby whilst in Georgia and would expect to stay there for 6 weeks to satisfy UK law. Equally, the contract with the SM will have payment of expenses and these will be within the sum recommended by UK law. 

We've done lots and lots of research and have been helped a lot by other IPs & successful parents taking the time to pass on their experiences. So, we're now about as confident as we can be about our choice of country & our choice of agency... We've also done lots of research into the legal side of things, again helped by information from this site and especially from past cases and rulings (in particular, Justice Hadley rulings).

However, where we are still a little hesitant is that we live in France & have been for 2 years. We have taken legal advice here &, provided the baby has a British passport, France would regard the baby as British. We believe that we are domiciled in the UK as: we have no intention of remaining in France for the rest of our lives, we have other children and family in the UK (none in France), we have a business and most of our work is in the UK, we have UK bank accounts &, whilst we have good friends and a social life in France, it is largely with ex-pats. So we believe that it would be very, very difficult for us to convince anyone that France was our domicile of choice - and so, conversely, we believe that we would be able to apply for a Parental Order in the UK...

Does anyone out there have any experience to help us further? We suspect that no-one will be able to tell us definitively that we are UK domiciled until we put it to the test in the Court with a particular judge so we are reluctant to spend money on getting further legal advice as we will then have to wait longer to start trying whilst we save up more money! So, some days we are convinced it's all straightforward and other days...

Good luck to all IPs and SMs and many thanks to all who waded through reading this!


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi HEC

You do have to be careful with domicile issues, because if you don't meet the criteria the court simply has no power to grant you a parental order and you could end up in horrendously complicated legal proceedings.  I know it's a financial investment at this stage, but I would consider getting legal advice on your individual circumstances.  This will (hopefully) give you the reassurance you need (or otherwise enable you make alternative plans on the legal side) as well as guiding you on how to present your application and evidence to the court further down the line.  In the long run, that could save a lot of cost and hassle. Although ultimately a judge will have to make the decision, it's true, there is lots of detailed previous case law on domicile, and it is by no means impossible to get advice on your position at this stage (I don't generally like up-selling here, but my team and I have dealt with several really complex domicile cases for surrogacy, and so we know this law inside out - I have even read and digested all the ridiculously flowery 19th century cases about where a man has his 'tabernacle' LOL   ).

I also just wanted to say to take care on the issue of expenses - in international cases it's not a question of staying within any figure which might be deemed acceptable in the UK.  The court will be very unlikely to accept that you have only paid expenses if you have entered into an arrangement with someone you don't know in a country which allows commercial surrogacy.  This isn't a massive problem but it does affect how you deal with things both now and when you come to apply to the court - you will have to ask the court to 'authorise' your payment and that entails a different approach than trying to present your payment as expenses.

I don't want to sound at all pushy, and if you don't want to get particular advice do keep doing as much research as you can.  There's lots of info on our website, though I'm sure you've been mooching around there already with the cases etc.

Best of luck

Natalie


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## sarahinfrance (Jan 5, 2012)

Hi,

Does anyone have more information about Surrogacy in France - yes we know it's illegal...but perhaps someone has found a way around bringing a baby back to France (I am British, husband is French, he would be the bio father)? Does anyone know of any websites in France where people are offering to be surrogate mothers unofficially of course?

Thanks!!!
Sarah


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## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

Hi Sarah, unfortunately because it's not legal I think you might struggle for people to openly share information about it on a public forum (although that's not to say some people might not contact you via PM or other private means  ) 

I am no way a legal expert on this but my guess would be you could perhaps capitalise on your UK citzenship and enter in a UK (or other international ) surrogacy agreement, use legal channels over here to complete the paperwork side of it, and then "move" back to France when it's all finalised and your child is legally yours. It might be worth you seeking some advice from the lawyers we have here about how /if that's at all possible. As I say, I'm afraid I don't know how the laws work and whether you have to be resident/show residency etc. but some of our members here might be able to help too. 

I hope you find a way to have the child you want. 

C~x


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## LouGhevaert (May 18, 2009)

Hi Sarah

You will need to handle the legal issues very carefully given the illegality of Surrogacy in France and the international dimension to your situation.

You will need to put in place a workable immigration plan and ensure you can get the right travel papers and citizenship for your child if you plan to undergo surrogacy abroad (France or elsewhere in the world)- which from an English law perspective is likely to raise complex legal issues given your husband's French national status. As an intended mother, you will have no legal connection with your surrogate born child initially under English law and so you will not be able to automatically confer your British citizenship upon your child at birth. The illegality of surrogacy in France means it may prove very difficult to obtain any legal recognition there and the risk is that your child could end up in legal limbo, with no citizenship status or travel papers.

You will also need to ensure you obtain legal parental rights for your child to protect yourselves and your child. The legal solution for surrogacy in the UK is a parental order and you will need to meet all of the relevant criteria, including that one or both of you is domiciled in a part of the UK. This is even more important if you are going to struggle to obtain legal recognition as parents in France.

Given the legal pitfalls, it really is a question of getting to grips with the legal issues and the best way to handle these before you proceed. There's lots of really helpful information on my firm's specialist website http://www.porterdodsonfertility.com/surrogacy-law/. I hope this helps point you in the right direction. If you want further guidance do feel free to get in touch.

Best of luck

Louisa


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## sarahinfrance (Jan 5, 2012)

Thank you for your replies.

It seems the only way around all this is to do it the unofficial way - for my French hubsand to father a child in the UK, for his name to be on the birth certificate, and for the mother to legally give up her rights to the baby (or claim that she doesn't want the child), tell the social services that the father wants the child - in this case what sort of legal documentation would be needed from the mother. How would a French father take a British born baby back to France - presumably the legal documentation showing that the mother gives up her rights, and him to be the father will allow the French consulate in London to give the child a French (or British?) passport? Alternatively, maybe we should look into whether my husband could apply for dual British-French nationality but I doubt he could if we are not currently residents in the UK. I would of course apply to adopt the baby, we already have an adoption agreement from the French authorities (however it is proving almost impossible to adopt internationally due to each countrys' restrictions) so I am pretty confident I would be able to adopt my husband's own child.

Thank you once again.
Sarah


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## kiera19 (Jul 2, 2010)

hi,


i read your post. I had Judge Hadley for my Parental Order and a very strict Court Reporter (Childs Guardian)

We had to prove that we where living in the UK and had to provide evidence. I was informed by the Childs Guardian that we would not be able even to apply for a Parental Order if we could not prove this. (Work docs, bills , ectt)

Also when you apply for a British Passport for your baby we where informed by the Embassy that the father needs to have a British Passport...

I know that i went to Ukraine and you are going to Georgia but My name was put on our daughters birth certificate aswell as my husbands 

hope this helps

best wishes


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

You can apply for a parental order if you are living outside the UK, but you have to satisfy the court that you are 'domiciled' here - we've done this on a couple of cases (also before Justice Hedley funnily enough). Domicile is a funny concept - if you want to know more there's info on our website at http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/intsurrogacy/37/

Keira - sorry that your Guardian was strict (most of them in the High Court team are pretty nice) but glad you got through it all ok.

Sarah - it sounds like you probably need some advice in France as to what your options are there, and maybe weigh that up against a UK law solution if that's an alternative too, if you think you can show a domicile here. If you PM me, I can give you some details of a French lawyer who may be able to help you.

Natalie


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