# Natural IVF (ie no drugs)..........part 6



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

New home ladies 


Love, luck & sticky vibes

   

Take care
Natasha xx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Am first... Yay....How about some lucky bubbles for my follow up tomorrow Natasha?


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

I've blown you some bubbles Inc...they should still be ending on 7 

Good luck tomorrow
Take care
Natasha


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Good luck tomorrow, Incon!

Yes, perhaps a change of protocol might be the thing. I'm in the process of arranging a phone consultation with Dr. Feinman in the states, and I have a follow booked with Geeta tomorrow next week.

How are you doing, Emma?


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## Hopeful emma (Apr 10, 2007)

hi everyone.

oh sally big hugs, but have you done that test yet? you sound like you are gathering yourself up very quickly but do take a litlle time to let everything settle physically and emotionally before you go on. your embryos are great quality, so you have loads and loads to feel optimistic about. huge squeeze for you xxxxxx

good luck for tomorrow incon.

any sign of af yet coughsweet?

good luck with the downregging dixie

good plans you have got julianne! i walkde into our bathroom the other day and dh was having a bath but holding his bits above the water! very funny sight. i was grateful of his trying though.


all went well with me today i had 3 put back, 2 not so great, just little 3 cells, but 1 x 8 cell. they were all grade 3. (didnt mention any grading of the insides?) so i remain quietly optimistic, yet realistic. only two weeks to go. (hah, see me sounding so philosophical in a few days time!). whatever happens i feel so relieved that i wont be doing ivf again, it has been a hard year with 3 cycles this year and it takes it out of you. (well me anyway).

love to you all

em x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Emma - First of all congratulations on your embies and being pupo ... When you say you are not going to do ivf again, are you saying that this is your last cycle?  Let's hope it works...   

Sally - also wanted to say that Care in Notts does the same protocol as the Sirm so you may want to have a consultation... Also the Lister is v. flexible in terms of trying different protocols... Emm would know better than me, though... Just some more food for thought... Have you done your htp?  

Hello to everybody else... 

Thinking a lot today...me...


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Sally are you sure you can't use your donor's sperm?  Geeta was telling me that frozen embies and so on get couriered around the world all the time.  I had a moment imagining a complete nightmare getting through security and customs, but apparently they have to go by special courier (doh!) Check it out with Geeta.

Well done Emms, sticky fingers crossed for you  

I had a call from Philippa today, she spoke to Geeta about Richard's fever and Geeta said to leave it for a while.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Oh well done, Emma! My fingers are absolutely crossed for you. As we're on a new thread you probably didn't see it, but I got my period today and had a negative HPT so definitely not up the duff. I took it pretty badly but have had a day of total indulgence, getting mollycoddled by various friends which has taken the sting out of it. (And and actual glass or two of wine! Honestly, there's nothing like being denied something to make you lust after it.) Lee insists I go for the blood test tomorrow but I think it would be a cold day in hell before I got a BFP at this stage. Am now trying to decide whether to go stateside or not. 

Incon - will check out Care in Notts but am leaning towards this HRC place in LA rather than SIRM; they're cheaper but still have a good success rate. How are you feeling?

Julianne, I did ask about my donor's sperm (we have no frozen  embryos) but the American doctor thinks it's too complicated, especially if I want to have it done by January. 

Also, though he has excellent sperm (he's only twenty eight and has fathered three kids), and though we've produced nice embryos together, I wonder if there is a 'compatibility' problem all the same? Is that possible if we've produced blastocysts together? I'm out of my depth here. 

Emma, grade three embryos are good. I hadn't even heard of grading insides of embryos but I rang the lab at LFC today and Jacob in the lab said mine had been grades C and D - not bad for a woman my age but not great either. I was trying to eke out some info from him, ie whether he thinks I should pack it in and just go for egg donation, but he wasn't very forthcoming...would welcome views on this..


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

sorry to hear your news Sally - sounds like you have lots of ideas on what to do next - hope things become clearer for you soon

Emma     lots of sticky vibes to you 

Dixie - have you started downregging now?

Julianne - good luck with all the vitamins and so on, presumably your DP will do another SA in the new year then?

Hi Prija, Jules, Incon  

No sign of AF yet for me 

lots of love
coughsweet


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hello!
Oh Sally I am so sorry! It is great that you have some good friends to help you through this hard time. Having further plans certainly helps too. Take good care of yourself!
Emma, well done. Are you taking it easy?
Regarding the grading of embryos, they only grade the inner part once they become blastocysts. Up until then they have a simple grade.
Good luck today Incon!
Hope the wait isn't too long Coughsweet!
Hope Richard feels better soon Julianne!
Love to all!
Take care!
Prija


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

*splutter*

Well I contacted the Androgenist attached to the Lister and they want to have a consultation with Rich at £200 and to do an SA at £110 (ouch!)

Trouble is, they want a complete medical history, but he was ever the gypsy, so has no records to speak of, and is totally rubbish at remembering things that have happened to him.  In fact, I think he made a concerted effort to forget!  With no history to speak of, I don't know what value a consultation would bring.

Why are men so crap at medical things?!

Sally, it's a shame about not being able to use your donor, it's a whole different mental ballgame using the sperm of a stranger.  What a pity.  Maybe it's time to think about donor eggs?  I guess the guy from the lab would fight shy of making recommendations in today's litigious world, but if they weren't great quality inside then maybe that's why they're not sticking?  You really do need to talk to Geeta about it.

How are the rest of the wobblers doing?  We should start a 'Fellowship of the wobblers' society!

How many of you are going to the meet up next week? I'm dithering, but if some of you go then I'll go...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Emma - have you taken time off or are you working through your 2 ww... Enjoy being pupo....

Sally - you could do a PGD to assess your eggs for any chromosomal abnormalities...You could try assisted hatching on top of going for blasties...Just some ideas... Also you could check whether the two of you are compatible by doing karyotyping (sorry not sure of spelling here)... I think you should have at least one more go before contemplating other options....You produce great no of eggs and they are not that bad quality if you can get to blasts....I still think it's a matter of numbers...

Are you having a follow up with Geeta?  

Julianne - I like the idea of gypsy folk ... Love the music and the lifestyle... Brill... It has its disadvantages when you have to deal with medical stuff and bureaucracy... Unfortunatelly, consultations and tests are expensive but worthwhile doing....as it's much more expensive to cycle... But I think you can a/improve the sperm b/ there is always an option of PESA and your ovarian reserve is good.... Fingers crossed...   

Cougsweet... how late are you?  

Prija - hope your little boy is better now....

Thx for your good wishes folks....


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Incon
I'm not late at all - (so no excitement there!) - my cycle lengh varies by up to 4/5 days - so AF should be here by Friday at the latest - will wobble along till then 

Julianne - men crap at medical things - couldn't agree more! Get fed up with having to "remind" my DH of whatever test, fetch results etc he has to do. And yes, ouch ouch to the cash side of things but whatever it takes to keep moving along ... Am being a bit mean actually - he has been a real sweetie the past week or so as he can see how anxious I am getting.

Am curious as to whether people take time off work during 2ww too? I am assuming CH / LFC give cyclogest pessaries - are they so awful that you feel like staying at home or is it just to rest/ stay in bed? 

  to all
coughsweet


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Coughsweet - you won't even feel the pessaries.... You can work... Maybe it's a good idea to take 2-3 days off following your transfer..but there is no need to be sofa bound for 2 ww...


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Julianne,
It depends on the equipment in the lab, but some labs 'spin' the sample and they may find sperm, albeit in a very small number, but which may be good for ICSI. Hopefully that will be the case! Incon's right, it's all so costly, but no pain no gain!
Hi everyone!
Prija


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Not that I needed confirmation with my heavy bleed going on, but have taken a blood test which of course confirmed that I am absolutely  not pregnant. 

Julianne - it's funny, my friend's partner is in the same boat, and he's been a bit stalling and feckless himself - some male pride thing in his case about not wanting to ask for help or maybe feeling emasculated by his low sperm count. I think it must be harder for men in some ways, because they generally feel less comfortable discussing this and opening up to others about it.

RE donor eggs - I don't feel ready to go that route yet - maybe one or two more tries with my own...?

How are you doing, Emma? 

Incon, thanks for the suggestions, you obviously know your stuff. I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday about PGD. She works in embriology and says that recent studies have showed that in recent studies, PGD, apart from being incredibly expensive, don't actually produce more live births; in fact there is an argument to be made for saying they can impair the embryo. Will look into assisted hatching.

But I do need some advice from the group. Coming back from Harley Street today, I was just aware of feeling like an absolute zombie, just so flat and numb and horrible. (And OLD, though tube window reflections don't help with that one!) It occurred to me, for the first time in over a year of aggressively trying to concieve one way or another, how much I would love to wait till, say, mid spring to do another IVF. To build up my strength again, to begin to have more of a life again!! (My whole life has been about this!) To work on my relationships and my fitness and my finances, to try to have more men in my life again....

But is that a terrible gamble? I know I don't have much time to waste, but the idea of doing this again in January or February just makes my heart sink. 

I will still meet next week with Geeta and have a phone consulation with Dr. Feinman in LA, so I'll ask them too, but would be very grateful for some advice from all of you...


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## Hopeful emma (Apr 10, 2007)

hello everyone.

higs for yopu sally- sounds like you are doing great  - you are strong and feeling all the things people feel, but dealing with them very well by the sounds of it. Re trying again i think its a toss up bewteen doing it when you feel ready and if your fertility has declined in that time. i know we keep saying it but you do respo0nd amazingly well for your age. the quality and qty of eggs and embryos you make is amazing and that should stand you in good stead for waiting a couple of months. I think maybe it is better to be in the right frame of mind as you need your strength to do it.

How did you get on today incon? be good to hear all the feedback from your consultation.

any sign coughsweet?

hey prija and dixie.

julianne it sounds like a lot of money, but it is a drop in the ocean compared to a failed cycle. thats the way i wlays looked at any money i spent on tests and vitamins and stuff.

I will definitely never do ivf again (as definite as you can be in this life). i have to be honest that i have found this cycle hard, i think it was just the wrong time for and i should have waited a bit. i sufffered from anxiety about 10 yrs ago and this cycle has brought it back on for some reason, so i am not being the best mummy to my embryos as i feel in a constant state of panic for not much reason. 

Its the dizziness that set off my worrying, even though my doctor thinks its an ear thing i still feel like something more sinsiter is going on and i cant shake the worry. sorry to sound so pathetic. i hope the symptoms of worry ease over the next few days..i am usually so strong

signing off for now.

em x


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi everyone,
Emma, sorry you are feeling anxious. My cycle last October was the wrong time for me. I was very anxious and panicky, which leads me to answer Sally's question a bit... Although I am aware that my fertility must be declining too (and I do know I am already very lucky), I have not been ready this year to go for another cycle. More mentally not ready, therefore I am looking at next Spring. Having done one cycle at a time when I wasn't ready, I didn't want to make the mistake again. It is a very difficult decision to make Sally. I think you will need to take some professional advice on this one. When I had my failed IVF in 2003, my Consultant refused to let me have my FET until I had seen a Counsellor and it definitely helped me. I do believe a positive frame of mind works wonders when cycling. I don't know if I am explaining myself very well. I understand perfectly what you mean though.
Emma, remember your embies are very safe now and no matter how stressed you feel, they are still safe!
Lots of love,
Prija


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thank you so much Prija and Emma, that's really helpful. As it happens I have two meetings with doctors on the same day of next week - Geeta on Tuesday  morning, then an evening phone consulation with LA doctor. I'll see what they say (and hope they don't contradict each other too much, at least on that point.) 

Prija, what you say makes tons of sense, and I do wonder whether this cycle was simply too soon after the previous cycle. I'm a little mixed about counselling...funnily enough, I am a psychotherapist, and have had quite a lot of therapy of my own in my life. Recently, I did go to see a counsellor, but it just felt wrong, through no fault of her own; though her specialist was fertilty it just felt like more of the same introspection I always go through, something which I am fortunate to have anyway with some of my friends. This is not to disparage therapy at all - (that would be pretty hypocritical) just that for me I think there are other things that are more healing just now, like meditation, like exercise.

And I need to start having some FUN AGAIN!!! It's been a long time since I've had any of that.

Emma, don't stress too much about stressing. Robert Winston says that, contrary to what we're taught to believe, stress in his patients hasn't hindered their fertility or live birth rate at all. I stressed a lot during my first 2WW and not so much during this last one (until the end) and I actually don't think it mattered either way (same as it didn't matter probably that I was much more active during the first one.)


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Sally,
Sorry had trouble getting out what I wanted to say. I wasn't so much advocating counselling as saying that I think my Consultant was right when he wouldn't let me leap straight back on the roller coaster. Although I was physically ready, mentally I was a mess and I believe this time to recover helped me enormously. I truly believe that without being healed emotionally it is impossible to be physically healed. I too was at astage last year when I needed to forget about cycling and to enjoy life to the maximum again. I think you are so right to think about having fun again!
Lots of love,
prija


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hello troops, 

Back from the battlefield!!!!  Am still alive... Had a lovely dinner following the consultation and a drink... ONly virgin colada as am hitting the road again in a few days when I get my period... 

Geeta said that this was a freak accident so to speak... It happens every now and then, but she said that there is no reason why it can't work and that everything else sounded promising.... She was v. upbeat.... almost wander why...  OK - am a bit cynical saying this...

She suggested  I do another stimulated cycle on a higher dose ie. 225 gonal f + buserelin  and thereafter she said she wouldn't allow me to do stimulated cycles anymore only natural ones.... She is obviously under the  impression that I would cycle ad infinitum until I either get fed up or get pregnant...  INteresting....  

Anyhooo.... I am not in a bad frame of mind ... .WAs gutted on Friday... Cried a bit, slept a bit...talked a lot to a mate... Saturday... was in a crappy mood... but good on Sunday...and good yesterday and I have always felt a lot worse after a failed cycle especially my June one hit me really badly... Geeta said that I cycled an awful lot this year and that I can't have more drugs after this cycle...

This is my 7th cycle ...although it's a shame I did 4 X IUIs which just depleted my emotional energy without having much chance of a success as I always produced just one folly and we also had male factor infertility... 

Emma - as Sally said stress won't affect the outcome of your cycle... I just think one copes better if in a positive frame of mind... You are lucky that you have your little boy...

Hello Prija - hope you are gearing for your cycle... Are you doing any yoga or meditation?  Vits, acupuncture or anything like that?  

Sally - As Emma said you have amazing ovaries... I would kill for that kind of response... 13 and 9... I haven't had so many eggs in my whole 18 months of fertility treatment tbh... Interesting what you said about therapy..     Made me smile...    

Also Sally - another suggestion...Have you tried taking DHEA... It's a steroid...It's anti-aging stuff which can be purchased over the counter in the STates, but not in this country... There are studies suggesting that it can improve egg quality and is meant to be good for over 40s ladies... Many drs in this country don't advocate it,although the ARGC didn't discourage me from taking it... CRM (you can google for case studies) has done some reserach into this and their results are encouraging... Also in the book The INfertility Cure by Rendall Lewsi, DHEA and L'arginine are quoted to increase the eqq quality... The girls who used it on the poor responders thread are confident that it has helped them get pregnant... Also there is some anecdotal evidence on the US forum...One lady who did 7 cycles of IVF aged 40- 42.5 showed pics of her embies when she started cycling and by the end of her 7 cycles her embies were so much nicer looking and better grades... You can check this out on Over 40 high FSH board.  She goes under the name - Kiwichick... It's honestly amazing... She produced much better quality of eggs on her 6th and 7th cycle and it was on low stimms 150 gonal f + 75 luveris + dexamethasone - this is the protocol that worked for her at the end... Quite a compelling story... Has the makings of a water paper - honest....


Coughsweet - we may cycle again as I am expecting to get my period in the next 5-6 days as I am on 25 day cycle....unless the drugs interfere somehow... 

Will research 'morrow to see whether I can purchase drugs cheaper elsewhere....

I will enter the Guiness book of records for the length of my posts, so will stop now... Will check your responses, though....  

Keep talking, keep writing... my fellow wobblers... Chin up


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Prija - Oh yes, right you are, got you now. Absolutely, I totally agree, and I'm sure that my marathon attempts at conception for the past twelve or thirteen months have taken their toll. When do you start your cycle again? 

Incon, as usual you are a fount of information. I will absolutely look into that steroid and ask Dr. Feinman about it. I'm delighted you had such a positive meeting with Geeta, and I'm sure if she's upbeat it isn't without reason! How do you feel about her suggestion, upping her meds and then going natural? You do indeed sound strong and robust but it's good that you've given yourself a chance to have a bit of a cry.

How are you feeling now Emma? Giving yourself an easier time I hope..

Believe it or not, I actually have a blind date tomorrow night, but my self-esteem is so low at the moment that I suggested we meet at an incredibly cavernous place, a private member's club that is conveniently dark.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

A blind date, eh and in a suitably dark place?    .  Sounds like a good idea... Hope you have a lovely time...
How many cycles have you done this year Sally?  

I would never admit this to my DH, but having hit my 40th I no longer care who the father of my child is... Would do anything to get a kiddo... Even a one night stand with a super stud if I am honest ... Am I desperate or mad?  

I also regret leaving ttc too late but wasn't ready to be a mother before my 35th b/day and then things didn't work out to plan...  I thought I would get pregnant easily, but it didn't happen... Shame I haven't tried with private treatment earlier... Geeta's clinic would have been a nice and gentle introduction to the IF world... A hindsight is such a wonderful thing...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

How many cycles have I done this year....good question!

This was only my second IVF, but at the beginning of the year I did three IUI's, including an IUI with injectibles that ended with a chemical pregnancy. Apart from that I had three male friends who tried to help me conceive - one with a turkey baster, the other two naturally. All of them were in their twenties with proven fertility. (just not proven on me!) So I have officially become a fertility tart. 

As is often the case with you, I really identify with what you say, though to me thirty-five still sounds very young....! Subliminally I think I knew by my late 30's but tried to go the nuclear family route by choosing utterly unsuitable men.

We can't regret things - life just doesn't work that way (and I'm saying this to myself as much as to you!) We come to things when we're ready to come to them.

And I think we just have to have some faith that we will get there in the end, with our own eggs or not. (Once that baby is in our arms, none of that will really matter anyway.)


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi everyone!
Incon, so glad that you had a good appointment and getting ready to go again!
Sally, I have my first appointment with Create booked for the 21st February. I then have the choice of either school Easter hols or if dates don't work out, the Summer hols next year for cycling. Reason is, we live in Newcastle and for my treatments last year, I travelled to London and back every other day of the cycle, with my youngest son in tow. Things have changed now, because he is older and at nursery and I don't think he would tolerate the travelling so well. I also worry about taking my older son out of school for vital days like egg collection. We have not confided in many people about treatment, so we cannot rely on people for childcare, therefore it is all very tricky. We had an initial bad consult here in 2005 and statistics are pretty dire here. We also have frozen sperm in London (used to live there) and there are no clinics doing natural/mild IVF here.
Hope you have a fab date tonight! How exciting!
Take care,
Love Prija


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

No AF yet but from the way my insides are rumbling and the fact I am so   she can't be far off!!
Am so ****** off - some of DH's results gone missing and he has had to speed off to the hospital to have a blood test redone. They say they can turn it around in a few days though so hopefully ok - just don't need any more things to   about

Incon - would be nice to have company when cycling   Glad Geeta thinks your last experience a one-off.

Sally - hope you enjoy your date hon   

Emma - hope you are feeling a bit better and less anxious now

Prija - how long does it take from Newcastle to London? Good if you can arrange things for school holiday times

lots of love
coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Now ladies... exploring the option of cheaper drugs..

Coughsweet - are they going to charge you for this as it's their sloppiness and not your fault...


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## Hopeful emma (Apr 10, 2007)

Hello Guys,

so good to hear you sounding so upbeat incon, it's really nice. very exciting that you are starting again so soon. I cant wait for you.

Hey Sally, I look forward to getting your feedback from your consultations. How was your blind date!? you sound very philosophical about your treatment and the road ahaed. I absolutley agree that we cannot regret things. i beta myself up for a while that i didnt try sooner after my son was born for another, but hey i wasnt ready, it was a good decision irrespective of the outcome.

it will be my last cycle. If this one fails i really need to spend a year focusing on my family and what i have got instead of keeping open a very sore wound and rubbing salt in it all the time. it will be time to let it heal. Alternatively I may be getting out the babyclothes who knows!

Coughsweet hope those rumblings and tears bring af soon, its exciting and i am glad you will have incon as a cycle buddy.

Prija, you sound super organised. i think i did do this cycle at the wrong time, I think i knew it all along and on reflection i should have waited until the nwe year, but i so wanted everyhting tied up in a nice neat box by christmas and lifes just not like that. but hey ho i'm in it now and it will be OK.

hello julianne and Dixie.

i am doing ok, i feel a bit better today. so my test date is friday 30th november. my dh is going on a mini tour next week so i am not looking forward to knocking around on my own with no one to bounce my worries off. I'm sure I will be posting a lot!

em x


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Prija, poor you, what an ordeal for you!  Are there no good fertility clinics in Newcastle? (I know there's supposed to be a great one in Manchester, but that's a bit of a hike for you too...)

Emma, glad you're feeling better about things....sound like sage words to yourself and I have to admit I am envious of the child you already have, not to eclipse the pain you must still feel over this....

How annoying for you Coughsweet about the results...do 'rumblings' necessarily mean period? I'm confused...

Blind date tonight. Feeling pretty crap about myself....nothing like trying for a baby at my age to make me feel utterly old, to feel my body has failed me, or that I have failed it. Not feeling too attractive.

Message from my mother just now (she lives in the States) wanting to know about my result...I couldn't bear to tell her, just let the phone ring. She's worried about what it's all doing to me, the tolls it's taking etc. She keeps trying to tell me I have a wonderful life without a child. She means well but sometimes it hurts more to talk to her about this.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Good luck with your date Sally - Hope you have a good time....

Emma - fingers crossed it works....

Coughsweet...not long to go... 

Did some research about drugs and think will try to source them elsewhere...


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello
just to clear that up it was not CH that have lost the results - it's down here!

Sally - rumblings for me means that AF is on her way yes    If you do treatment in the US would that mean staying with your Mum or being near her at any rate? Sorry you are feeling low  

Would be interested in what you find out on the cheaper drugs front Incon. I've seen there are some threads on this subject.

Look forward to your many posts next week Emma. I am finding this thread a lifeline at the moment so am glad people are   so much.

coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

found some interesting stuff... Create is def not competitive drugs wise... They have to make their margins someplace... But then the ARGC is a plain daylight robbery in every respect...  Will let you know no probs... Will find out whether I get the prescription from the Create but should be able to as it's common practice in other clinics..  

Info for Dixie..- the ARGC do bloods on a daily basis and keep telling you that your meds may change so people don't source out their drugs elsewhere.. But I only had merional once and it was always puragon...and I think the reason it was merional is bcs I told the nurse in no uncertain terms what I thought about the whole thing... and I said to her I bet it's going to be puragon tonight as well so I am just wasting my time hanging about for drugs... And guess what that night it was merional, not puragon... So you will save a fortune if you source drugs elsewhere.... Puragon is easily found, but not merional....

Sally =- another thought...- maybe it's worth checking your immunes to check for the presence of NK cells... It maybe that your body is rejecting the embies somehow... Worth exploring methinks... 

Emma - how is your 2 ww...Are you working?


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Coughsweet - hope you find the results...yes,  I would stay with my mum in LA if I do the treatment there. I'm actually very close to my mum; I just feel so sad now about having to tell her the result. When I'm unhappy, she panics - tries to 'fix' it or something..I think it's sad for her too that I have come to this age without a man or a child, but she won't admit that.

Incon, that's a great suggestion too...the NK thing I mean...I'll add it to my list of things to ask Geeta and Feinman about.

Emma, hope all is chilled with you. 

Just back from my date. He was gorgeous, and it was going pretty well, but guess what --- I was sitting on this wierd bench type thing with a cushion, and I leaned forward to sip my drink and the cushion slipped beneath me and I grabbed hold of the table (which was rickety anyway) and down it all came - I fell on my **** on the floor, our glasses tumbled to the floor and broke into pieces, wine everywhere, and everyone in the place turned and stared and someone said 'what happened' and honestly it was like like a film, most embarrassing moment of my life. (The waiter had to come up and clear the glass away too.)  I asked after that "am I the clumsiest date you've ever had' and he said 'you are actually' and I laughed but christ, I am so embarrassed!! So that may be the end of that. I'm not sure we were totally compatiable anyway, but still....what a  , falling on my big **** and spillng and breaking everything. Such is my life.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sounds like a great start... I bet he will call you again ....


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Somehow I doubt it.

Probably for the best anyway - he seemed great at first but basically talked about himself all night; another in a series of self-obsessed men I seem to keep meeting. Still, that image of myself sprawled out like that - it really was calamitous! 

I'm sure in a week's time it'll all seem hugely funny, but at the moment it just seems another in a series of degradations - a sense that nothing I attempt quite works. Just been scribbling in a cafe up the road, surrounded by ridiculously bonny babies, mums ten years younger.

Sorry for the rant. Today is actually the first really bad day post IVF result -  it's like it's all really  hit me today.

And to the moderators - so sorry for swearing (I can't actually remember what I said!)


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Sally2 said:


> And to the moderators - so sorry for swearing (I can't actually remember what I said!)


Not a problem


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## dixie9000 (Feb 15, 2007)

Hey all

Sally so sorry it didnt work out for you this time   . I know telling my mum it hadnt worked was almost harder than telling my DH.....they want it so badly for you. When I told my mum I tried to act like I expected it and was handling it well....later that day I broke down and sobbed like a baby...we both did! After that I somehow felt alot better and I think she did too. Hope you manage to speak to your mum soon. Sometimes we just need someone who really cares to be there for us ....and there really is nobody like your mum x Sending you loads of   


Emma- hope you are well and getting through the 2ww. Thinking of you and sending you loads of    

Coughsweet- hope AF comes soon for you.  I managed to do my first downregging injection yesterday (well DH did it). By accident he hit a vein/ blood vessel and so I was bleeding a bit but even then it didnt hurt much. Today we managed to miss the blood vessels and it was absolutely fine (although just before he injected me I was hopping round the room in panic shouting 'DONT HURT ME!'). The anticipation really is much worse than the actual injection.

Incon- thanks for the info on the drugs. I think I am definitely going to have to look into that because the costs are just piling up. I had the immune testing and have high killer cells (level 21 when it should be less than 12) so need IVIG (did you have that when you cycled with them? How was it?). That is very expensive . 

Prija- must be very tricky trying to cycle with kids.... i can barely cope and there is just me to think about. I hope you can find someone to look after them so they dont have to do the long commute. Do your parents live nearby? You must be looking forward to feb though so you can start  

Julianne- hope you well  

Dixie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Can't believe I lost my post twice... both times quite long ones...but not giving up...

So a short one now...

Dixie - Lily 67 sourced her drugs elsewhere...Fazeley 01827 262 488.  I didn't have ivig. If you do have it expect your cycle to cost btw 10-12 k if your source your drugs from the ARGC.  

Sally - I hope you will be able to laught at what happened in due course... I think you may have expected too much of yourself and the guy... You couldn't have known that he would be talking about himself most of the evening... it was a blind date ....  If you don't see him again - good riddance, if he calls then maybe you can laugh at the whole thing together and have a nice d&D again ....
You have got plans in place... You need some time to grieve and get better...  

Emma - hope you are OK... Do report to us... I hope you are glugging lots of water...

Prija - is your little boy better...

I have to do some work today... DH having v. wobbly moods..His job is a bit on the line... so worrying...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Dixie, thanks - that's very moving about your mother and you. Sounds as though you're very close. I'm quite close to my mother too though we live five thousand miles apart and she worries about me putting myself through this. She hates to see me sad and sometimes it makes her angry to see her children suffer; understandable but not always helpful. But I will tell her soon.

Never thought when I embarked on this whole thing that it would make me feel such a failure as a woman as well as a mother (or not-mother.) It isn't just the disappointment of not having a child...it's the shame it brings you, all that cultural stigma crap. I'm not saying that's the right way to feel or that I objectively believe it, but it's hard not to buy in that, and being single as well adds to that shame. 

Incon, hope your DH finds some calm with his moods and job. How's work going? 

And yes, I probably was expecting a lot of the date, mainly because we'd been corresponding for about a month before we met, and got on really well via email. I try not to get too excited about guys right now (funnily enough there was another thwarted romance around the time of my last IVF, though that was more involved) but I think I saw last night as my consolation prize for my BFN - at least I could get glammed up, have a glass or two of wine, a bit of a flirt and a frisson.

But yes, I can see the funny side of it already. Kind of like some chick flick, though you really need the likes of Renee Zelweger or Julia Roberts to pull it off. 

How's everyone else doing...?


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

Sally - sorry the date didn't quite pan out as hoped for! I know what you mean about feeling a failure as a woman as well - this really taps into everything doesn't it, I find there isn't really any aspect of me that hasn't come up for questioning as a result. It must be very hard doing it on your own   
My mum is being v supportive but she won't hear of treatment not working for me which can be a bit difficult sometimes. 

Dixie - hope you've got the hang of the injections now    Bit nervous myself.

Emma - hope you are doing ok?  

Hi Prija, Julianne

Jules - you ok?

Incon - have you definitely decided to give it another whirl this time round?

My AF has arrived in all her glory now so due to start jabbing tomorrow and booked in for first scan next Friday. Have just got train ticket too. DH should be picking up his 2nd set of results today which is good. So that's me. Finally off on this journey.  

love coughsweet x


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Yesterday I had a change of heart. I woke at 5am in floods of tears   and feeling all wrong. I had a long chat with DH about it all and the upshot is that I am leaving it until January to do this first round.
I think the thought of getting a BFN just before Christmas and then having to put on a happy face for relatives who don't know etc, (not to mention all the business of the Baby Jesus - and watching all the families in church) was just too much no matter how desperate I am to get started and get on with it. Last year I got very distraught at New Year too about all this - and on reflection I would rather be looking at starting all this on the other side of the holidays. It just took me right to the wire to know that inside. I am also not entirely comfortable about the whole polyp thing and will try and get another scan done this week with Geeta if possible.

I feel awfully flat this morning   but I underneath I do believe I have made the right decision for me. It's just the payoff doesn't feel immediate.

So there you go, fellow wobblers, hope you are feeling less wobbly than me  

love coughsweet xxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

My scan with Geeta proved inconclusive yesterday... She couldn't see much as my period is imminent in a day or two... wander what was the point of the scan before period as she said couldn't see my ovaries properly she said.... On the left not much activity... On the right she couldn't see... She also asked if I thought I ovulated... Isn't she supposed to be able to tell by scanning me... How am I supposed to know when I was in treatment and didn't use my OPK and was full of drugs anyway...

She looked worried though and when I asked her if I was at the end of the road in terms of ttc, she didn't answer my question... Another scan when I get my period to decide whether I am cycling before Xmas... I do feel I am a bit at the end of the road...

I am getting tired of all this... Had a long monologue with DH in the pub next to the CH and I am finding it increasingly difficult to motivate both myself and him.  He is full of regrets about the past, full of bitterness that I wasn't ready to have kids when he was.  I feel that my efforts to have kids from my 35th birthday onwards were often sabotaged , because I was doing a Master's degree, which my dh didn't approve of... He didn't always want to cooperate and was sending me mixed signals. It's true taht we were badly advised by the NHS as well, which wasted us a lot of time, but had my dh not refused to cooperate when I was taking clomid we would have gone privately a whole 1.5 years earlier  and he acknowledges this, but has never said sorry... I can't stop myself thinking that this could have made all the difference... We could have of course both been smarter and bypassed the NHS altogether , but we didn't ....

I wonder what will happen with us...Both of us feel bitter...  He finds it difficult to give me any support... Hugging and talking doesn't come easily or naturally to him and I desperately need a hug right now... He never talks about his feelings... And when I ask him what we are going to do... he just comes with yet another reference to the past i.e  Why didn't you ask me that 10 yrs ago, which then seem as if it's all my fault as it were and my not being ready to have kids when I was in my early thirties, which I do regret now... I think we both regret what happened and neither of us wanted things to end up as they are now...

Our future seems to depend on the outcome of the treatment that has got slim chance of working.
We talked about 3 scenarios: 

a/staying together childless, which I don't want
b/having donor egg, which dh doesn't want or is unsure of/scared of as he never wanted it as if I did somehow..
c/separating

He said that we have got 3 bad options and he is not happy with either of them....I should add that I am currently working just 1 day a week due to ttc, so am financially dependent on dh... 

I am just tired of not being supported by him, my friends have disappeared and my family doesn't even know that I am dealing with all this crap.. My sis knows that I have had one ivf but doesn't know how desperate my situation is at all... 

And yes, I thought of counselling, and yes, I am aware that we have issues and I am aware of what they are...  And I don't feel good about the idea of somebody just listening and nodding and not saying much and leaving it at the end for me to come up with a solution anyway... So, I am not sure whether it's worth the bother as I expect that counselling would be painful and I am in enough pain already and it won't give me a baby that I desperately want...Also my DH would never agree to counselling for the two of us so it would have to be just me going....

So, there it's all out... And I am sorry for offloading like this...


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Incon.
I just wanted to say how sorry I am for the difficult time you are having. We are here for you, so do not apologise for offloading. I can't really say anything other than I am sorry and we are here for you any time. I suppose you both have to work through your problems. My DH and I have had lots of downs as well as ups, especially when we found the cause of our infertility many years ago. I thought we would end up separating (DH just couldn't deal with it all). Now though, it clearly has made us a stronger couple. I hope it will make you both even stronger too.  
Coughsweet, I understand completely what you are saying (having made a similar kind of decision myself). Take care  
Hope everyone else is OK.
Love to all!
Prija


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## dixie9000 (Feb 15, 2007)

Hey all

Coughsweet - Sorry you are feeling so flat   . That must have been a very hard decision but I think that you are right to follow your instincts and wait. A few months wont really make any difference.

I suppose it will also give you a chance to investigate the polyp and make sure it is not going to affect any treatment. It is a very hard thing to do this IVF over xmas....i am already trying to think of excuses as to why we will not be able to come out. I guess now you can try and enjoy the holidays and hopefully approach the ivf in a good positive frame of mind in the new year. New Year ..new start...and hopefully new baby!    

Incon- sorry you are having such a tough time. Hope you and DH can move forward without looking back....hope you manage to find some peace   . I suppose you wont really be able to make any firm decisions until you have had your scan after your period...and know whether you are going to do more IVF.Hope you find some answers soon x 
ps: I am sure you have already considered it but in case you havent ....is IVM an option for you?....I dont know much about it apart from that it is where immature eggs are removed from your ovaries and matured outside of the body. In this way your ovaries would not have to perform in maturing the eggs. Not sure if it is at all appropriate? I know some women are doing it in europe.

Hi to everyone else  

Dixie x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh Incon, I'm so sorry that this is so hard on your relationship.  It tends to be that way though, this was the last straw for me and my ex, and with Rich the first week we went to Create I thought we were going to split up.  I don't know what the answers are, but what's done is done, and no good can come of recrimminations and the like.  Your man has to understand that it's completely counterproductive and unfair.  If you're not ready for a baby, you're not.  Nobody should be forced into parenthood, man or woman.  He has to get a grip on himself.

It's unwise to do anything but deal with the here and now.  Wait until AF arrives and then see what the scan shows.  You can't pre-empt anything before that and neither can Geeta.  I'm not sure why you had the scan just before either, but then their ways are often a mystery to me!

Chin up love and keep plodding on.

As for us, I spent a fortune on vitamin pills and so on last week, so have Rich on a new regime.  He takes the Marilyn thingummy vitamins, a royal jelly, vitamin A, CoQ10 and EyeQ cod liver oil.  He also has a smoothie for breakfast every day with bee pollen.  He is, however, back to wearing knickers again!  I'm going to have to invest in boxers, stat.  I'm trying to arrange an SA and a followup with this Andrologist guy, Mr Minhas who's attached to the Lister.  Of course he's the most expensive.  Sigh.  Let's hope the new regime gets some kind of count going!  

Coughsweet, how are you doing?  Hell, how's everyone doing this week?


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Julianne,
My DH saw Mr. Ralph. In 2003, Mr. Minhas was one of his team. He was very nice!
Good luck!
Prija


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello folks

well, gave CH a ring this morning and convinced them to squeeze me in for a scan tomorrow when hopefully things will be clearer after my AF.
Feel a lot calmer having made decision to leave treatment till after Christmas.
Just nipped out to change my train ticket and ran straight into a friend who has just had her baby - typical!! Though I do not grudge her so much as she had cancer and after treatment thought she had no chance at all of having her own baby - so this has been a v long journey for her I know. I just felt such longing looking at it - but I find bumps more difficult than babies.

Incon - it's good that you are offloading here at least. I am so sorry that you are having such a painful time   .

Hello Julianne, Dixie, Prija - thanks for your support

Hope you're doing alright Emma and Sally  

love coughsweet x


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone, sorry to be offline for a few days...been out and about quite a bit, a bit of a hedonistic week to say the least, full of all the things I'd been denying myself for two months (late nights, friends I haven't seen in ages, hot baths, vino vino vino). Just what the doctor ordered (or not, as the case may be). 

Coughsweet, your decision to wait sounds excellent to me. The holidays bring up enough anxiety for us already, seeing old friends and family, wanting it all to be perfect but secretly feeling we have so much to prove, being so sorely aware of what we are missing in our lives, and what we feel everyone else has  (you only have to look at all the Christmas advertising to feel that way, all those ludicrously happy families in snow-covered villages). I think it's right to be gentle with  yourself and not combine the anxiety and chaos of that with fertility treatment. Also, regarding your friend with baby - that stuff is really incredibly hard for me too. Just been up to Cafe Mozart which is positively CRAWLING with bonny babies, all propped up by yummy mummies fifteen years younger than me, cozily sipping their lattes and comparing baby notes. I just sit there with my notepad feeling like the oldest most barren person in the world!

Incon - I feel so badly for you. I'm aware of what a strain these things can be on relationships and it seems the two of you are really suffering. It is of course terribly unfair for your partner to blame  you for not trying earlier - you're ready when you're ready, and there may have been very good reasons for not being ready before now, even if it doesn't feel that way at the moment. Would your partner consider going into counseling together? As a therapist myself, I really feel that what you may sorely need, both of you, is the presence of a third person who can help the two of you to create a dialogue without blaming each other, to force you both to really listen and to feel heard and understood. It can also help you to work out how many of your difficulties are related to this fertility stuff and how many of them you might have had anyway....in other words, whether there is a wonderful relationship worth saving or whether the reason it is so tense is because there is already something bad or untenable at its core. Of course these things are rarely simple but a good third party could be just what you need. Furthermore, not all therapists sit there and listen blankly - there are some good, very interventionist ones who will help you to make more concrete decisions.

Having said that, a bad therapist can do more harm than good so be sure  you do your research if you do decide to go into counseling, even if that means interviewing several before you find the right one for you. But you clearly need some support, and all the better if it involves the two of you!

Hope I'm not preaching here. 

How are you doing Dixie, Prija, Emma?

Tomorrow I have consultations with both Geeta and Dr. Feinman in L.A. so I'll let you know what they say. I really hope they tell me it's okay to take a bit of time off! I'll be going to Los Angeles over the holidays anyway because my parents live there, but I would love not to do another treatment before, say, April. I really could do with a rest.

I will ask this of the doctors and more - ie all the suggestions you've made here - and let you know what they say. 

Oh, and just talked to LFC about the quality of my embryos - seems that during my first treatment, which was straight IVF, my embryo quality was much better (AB) then it was with ICSI (CC or CD) which I take as a good sign I think, or should I? (As in, my natural egg quality is better without iCSI, or maybe that says more about the sperm...)


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - Your embie quality could be related to both ie ivf vs icsi and /or sperm... This is, however, a controversial area...People still do get pregnant with ICSI and for some people it's the only way to get pregnant... Sperm samples differ from month to month...  Geeta is in favour of ivf ie natural selection of healthy sperm... They may pick sperm which is not the healthiest if they do icsi...  But then the ARGC for example, routinely do ICSi with people who have less than 5 follies... 

Thx for advice re counselling... DH would never agree to counselling as he is simply not the type....  I am having my nhs assessment for counselling on Wednesday, so will see how that goes...  Frankly at this point the matter for me is whether I have a child or not whether I save my relationship....,I simply want to be a mother and I haven't got the time to start from scratch... either with own eggs or donor... 

Coughsweet - if you feel happy with your decision it's probably right....Good luck for Jan...

Jualianne - You seem to be doing all you can do improve your dh's sample...

I am having a sticky situation with the Create again... I am to be scanned today and they haven't got a dr available and I am not sure if the nurse can make the right decision whether my cycle should proceed or not... Geeta could not make such a decision on Saturday... and how the hell is the nurse suppose to make it today... It still costs £3000...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks Incon, will bring up what you say tomorrow (regarding ICSI/IVF etc.) How frustrating for you with CH....can you complain? Do you have to pay £3,000 up front?

And I totally get what you're talking about in regard to not wanting to start from scratch...I suppose my version of this is the try-for-a-baby-man-later thing, (which doesn't stop me from dating sometimes, vainly hoping I might get the whole package in one happy accident.) I hope that your relationship is strong though, and that you are just going through a rough patch or both feeling the pressure of right now.

How did it go with CH today anyway?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - thx for your input... hope you are feeling better and that plans are shaping up nicely... Any decisions yet?  

Emma - our PUPO lady....How is your 2 ww.  

Dixie - hope you are happy at the ARGC...

Cougsweet - I may join you in January... Hope you are oK.  

Prija - you can pick a lot of useful info by the time you start cycling....You may even change your mind after reading all this stuff on here...

The scan didn't go well today... I didn't feel confident in Lee reading the stuff frankly...and I could not shake this off and I even told her so.  

.  According to Lee she saw just one follicle and I said to myself that I won't proceed without 2... I have a choice of doing a natural cycle but I think I can't be bothered for one follicle really... I think what success they have is with their stimulated cycle...

The plan now is to cycle in January if my scan shows 2 follicles.  If not then that's it... I can't waste my emotional resources for just one follie and then think whether I will get to the EC with this...

I paid for the scan with Lee today £200... Not too plsd about this, as she is not really qualified to do such specialist work... Anyhooo... Just to let you know that there is no drs at the Create in either of the clinics on Mondays and I think Fridays...if I recall correctly, so do make sure that you get a dr for scans especially the ones that involve decision making costing you a lot of money.... And the prices obviously went up... Even the ARGC charges £140 for scan and they are mega expensive.  

Have a chat with dh re donor eggs and told him that I am filling in the forms this week and proceeding with this with him or without him... So, it's up to him now to make his mind up... 

Will think it over whether to go for a natural cycle this month but am inclined to have a break and go on hols in December....and give it one more go in Jan doing a stimulated cycle if scan looks good... Lee told me that I can change my mind, but I think a lot of people cancelled their December cycle by the sound of it and she was trying to generate some business as there wasn't a soul in the clinic today...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Well Incon, it sounds like you know what you're doing and you're very driven...good you've told your DH where you're at with donor eggs too.

I have to say though - are you sure that Lee is out of her depth? I rather get the feeling that Lee is better equipped on the scans than, say, Dr. Khan. I know she can be a rather narky personality but I've always felt she is competent, at least on scans....Perhaps I'm wrong.

How are the rest of you? Have you got your feet up, Emma?

I have my two meetings tomorrow with doctors, but have had some email correspondence with Dr. Feinman today, asking him questions to prepare for our phone meeting. Thanks again to all of you who have given me tips.

Hope this isn't too boring for you - feel free to ignore it; I'd just though it would be good to have some of your thoughts so far. Also, perhaps it affects some of you too?

Dear Dr. Feinman:

Here is my reproductive history as promised.

I was born in January, 1965.

I am five feet tall and weigh 110 pounds. I have always been in excellent health with no history of cancer, diabetes, heart disease or other hereditary illnesses in my immediate family. I do not smoke and I drink moderately (around seven-ten units per week.)

In my early twenties, I had two terminations; one at seven weeks, one at around ten weeks. At the age of 41, I had a third termination (due to extreme personal circumstances) at seven weeks.

When I last tested three months ago, my results were as follows:
FSH was 6.2.
LH was 6.1
Serum Oestradiol was 221 pMol/L
Serum prolactin level was 158 mU/L
Satisfactory results too for Thyroid function test - 1.04 mU/L
(My FSH was up from 4.7 which it was a year ago, but my LH was down from 9.2)
I tested negatively for HIV, Hepatitus. B& C, chlaymdia and gonnerhea. I am CMV+.

A year ago, I had two IUI's with clomid in London, both negative. In January of this year I did a third IUI with injectibles with Dr. Quintero at SIRM in Los Angeles, resulting in a chemical pregnancy.

For a period then of six months, I attempted to conceive naturally (or with syringe, fresh sperm) with two male friends, (both proven to be free of all STD's.) but produced no pregnancy.

In September, I underwent my first IVF. I was put on a short protocol with very low doses of drugs: Nine days of Buserelin injections, 0.5 ml each, accompanied by eight days of FSH injections, (Gonal prefilled pen) of 150 iu. per night. I accidentally took too much on my first night and the overall amount of FSH I injected was, I believe, about 1200 iu.
On my ninth night of meds, I also took 0.6 ml of HcG, trigger injection, followed by egg collection thirty-six hours later.
I produced thirteen eggs. With my donor's frozen sperm, nine of them fertilized. On day five, the lab transferred three blastocyst embryos, two of them grade four, AB (this clinic grades quality in ascending order, so grade four is excellent) and one grade three, CC (which is average.)
The treatment was then followed by cyclogest pessaries twice daily. I did not conceive.

In November, I went a similar protocol for my second IVF. This time, however, they downregulated my meds in an attempt to produce fewer eggs of better quality; my FSH was reduced to less than 900 iu. Also, the sperm quality was less good so ICSI was performed.
I produced nine eggs, out of which seven fertilized. Once again, three blasts were transferred at day five. Two of the blasts were grade four, CC and one was CD. The lab have told me that the inferior quality of these embryos is probably due to ICSI; they feel I respond better to straight IVF. Instead of taking cyclogest, my doctor prescribed me Crinone, a natural progesterone supplement taken vaginally via an applicator, once daily. I also took dispersible aspirin, also once daily. Needless to say, no conception.

So here are some questions which I will raise tomorrow:

1) Having aggressively tried to conceive for a year, I am absolutely exhausted and emotionally battered. Could I consider taking a break of, say, two or three months? Would my ovaries wait that long? Conversely, wouldn't it be better to have a chance to regroup and recover before undergoing the whole thing again?

2) Should I do a PGD to assess embryo or quality? (Though I have heard of recent studies that say that this can be damaging to the embryo.)

3) Should I consider assisted hatching?

4) Could there be a problem of compatibility between my friend's sperm and my eggs? (I wouldn't have thoughts so, considering that we made blastocysts.) Is there something we could do to test this - karyotyping, I think it's called?

5) Should I consider taking something called DHEA - an anti-aging steroid? (I think it's hard to get here in Britain but not in America?) What about something called L'Argenine?

6) Could my system be checked for the presence of NK cells which may be attacking the embryos?

7) What about something called IVM, where immature eggs are taken out of the body and matured elsewhere?

 If I do undergo treatment with you, how difficult would it be to import my friend's sperm?

Thank you so much for considering all of these. I look very forward to talking to you tomorrow!

Sally 

And here is his response:

Sally...

Despite making good quality embryos, the most likely cause of your treatment failures is chromosomal abnormalities in the embryos, due to your age. Also, ICSI causing poor embryo quality is "poppycock." Having said this, here are some brief answers to your questions:

1) Given your good responses, a few months should not make a big difference.
2) PGD will answer questions, it will not change outcome. It will allow you to see if my statement above is truly your problem. We do not believe that PGD done in expert clinics like ours significantly damages embryos.
3) Assisted hatching is done routinely on women over 40 in the U.S. However, its true value remains to be proven. With blastocysts, the zona is usually thinned out already. Empirically, we would do it.
4) No
5) The abstract describing DHEA was intended for poor responders&#8230;not your case.
6) Very controversial. No scientific evidence of truth. Do it if you like. I guarantee the test will be positive.
7) Why? You need all the embryos you can get.
 Cannot do it anymore. He either has to come over, or you need to pick an anonymous donor from a sperm bank in the U.S. This is not negotiable, because it involves FDA regulations, so please do not waste our valuable time together debating this.

Other than that, I look forward to speaking with you.

Michael Feinman, MD


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Wow, he doesn't mince his words!  At least you know where you stand with him, no pfaffing about there!

Could your donor go out with you for a quick visit to do the sperm thing at the right time?  Or freeze maybe?


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Everyone,
Wow, that was a good response Sally. I must say, I have never heard it said that embryo quality can be inferior due to ICSI. We are very lucky to have had very good embryo quality including blasts from ICSI. The further problems we have had, ie. a large number of embryos, but few surviving thaw or being unsuitable to freeze has been put down to using testicular sperm. This has not undergone the full developmental process therefore the embryologist cannot actually see how viable the sperm is. Sounds like you will have a very fruitful conversation with him!
Incon. sorry things are not going as you had hoped.
Emma, are you OK? 
Hello everyone else!!
Love Prija
What I think is correct is that providing ICSI is done with normal ejaculated sperm, then there should be no difference to any formed embryos, obviously eggs can be damaged in the actual injection process, but I don't think they would then develop into embryos.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - in you letter you mention some v. high doses like 1200 IU -and 900 iui - is this a typo?  

I was impressed with his replies... I think frankly if you have financial resources you would probably be better off doing it in the States than here... Taranissi and Lister seems to be the leaders in the field here.  Taranissi is v. v. expensive, though....and not sure whether the cost is entirely justified.  He would probably put you on IVIG as you had previous ivf failures and it would cost you a lot of money...It is a controversial area and not all drs believe in this kind of treatment...

  I would probably have a go in the States especially given the fact that you could stay with your mum and get loads of emotional support too whilst cycling and change of scene may be good for you... It's unfortunate about the sperm donor so I can also see the attraction of cycling here... I would probably try a different clinic after 2 unsuccessful attempts at the Create... The price is attractive., though..  

Appreciate what you say about Lee... She is at times annoying and bossy (possibly due to overstretch and overwork) and it seemed to me that she was blissfully unaware that her  ego was less important to me than my welfare  and that the last thing I needed was to have my concerns dismissed when I think that they were perfectly legitimate for the price that I was paying.... As you say she may be perfectly competent but still it's specialist work and £200 is quite a bit of money... Surely she shouldn't be able to command the same kind of price as Geeta or Dr Campbell and she shouldn't be in a position to do so... It just doesn't feel right and maybe acceptable at the NHS where such service is free but not in a private clinic.  

  I didn't particularly like dr Khan although can't comment about her scanning.  She managed to annoy both me and dh during the ivf induction.  My dh normally has a total trust  in doctors, but he was visibly annoyed with Dr Khan when she quoted some ridiculous stats for my situation...I do respect Geeta and prof Campbell and wish that I could have been seen by one of them...  

Do you guys think that I should have a go at this natural IVF in this cycle?  Or wait for a scan in Jan and try to do a stimulated cycle for one last time if the scan is good...  Any suggestions? ...


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Girls,
Just wanted to say that when I called up to make my appointment, I asked what Lee's surname is. (Knew lovely nurse called Lee at last clinic, but definitely not her). The lady taking my call told me that Lee will no longer be working there in January. Maybe that helps Incon? I don't know what advice to give you? I personally wouldn't choose to cycle around Christmas. When I had my ectopic, I had the ET transfer done on my Wedding Anniversary and sadly I spent the early hours of DH's Birthday in theatre after my ectopic ruptured. It just means that every year on what should be a happy day, I will always feel sad for what might have been. Obviously, if things work out when cycling at Christmas time then that's wonderful. This is just my own personal opinion though. Do you feel ready for a little break Incon?
Love Prija


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Thx Prija.... Have nothing personal against Lee, just think that it makes such a difference when nurses are nice and caring ... Even if one gets a bad prognosis, it just makes a world of difference... I felt so good at the LFC as everybody was so nice and it can't be much worse than waking up to no eggs... 
I can't say that I am glad that she is leaving... I would say that she is probably a very competent nurse.  She just hasn't got the personality that goes with the job especially dealing with infertility patients....

As you say, maybe a little break is in order...  Will chat with dh about everything including hols... 

How are you?  Getting ready for your cycle?  

Cougsweet - are you glad you decided not to cycle... 

Sally -  Good luck for your consultation with Geeta....and the Dr M. F. 

Julianne - what's happening with yuo and dh?  

I was really upset yesterday , so had a good cry.  DH was v. agitated as he can't deal with people crying or showing any kind of weakness... Feel really pants today...as am all swollen and headachy...  Having my counselling assessment tomorrow... Feel really upset that I am in this situation and that past 18 months have been squandered bcs I was always knocking at the wrong door at the wrong time...  Had I at least got at the right place first time it maybe would have made all the difference...I could have done 3 ivfs in the space of a year and I would have been finished by Jan or Feb 07 had I gone to a different clinic... V. unfortunate choice .... It 's also amazing that my fertility has gone down so much in 18 months...

Thinking of donor eggs -it just feels unreal and painful, although I know I don't want to stay childless... Life is full of cruel little ironies...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Just another idea for Sally... WAs doing some research and came across CGH test (comparative genomic hybridization), which gives 75 % success when people undergo this procedure and it's much higher than normal... It's done at the Sirm... There is quite an impressive video... In a nutshell they test all chromosome as opposed to just some, so exclude all abnormalities... Thought that this could be of interest really especially if you go to the States... Hope your consultations went well....

Do you guys know if the antral count varies from month to month...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks Incon!

This is really frustrating - have tried posting replies three times and they keep getting deleted! I'll try again.

Incon, I'm so glad you've had a cry - sounds like you so need one! What a painful and difficult time this is for you, and I do wish your DH was more understanding!!

Agree that Lee can be pretty chippy; she was downright cool to me during  my first BFN which I didn't appreciate at all, the state I was in...she does seem to have warmed up a bit though. I think her last name is Hutchinson.

Prija, you're right -it's probably not ICSI that affects the embryo quality, but the frozen sperm might, and I have no choice about that.

Okay, I have now spoken in person to both doctors....most enlightening. What was interesting was that they agree more than they disagree; Feinman only really disagreed in saying that they always do assisted hatching no matter what; he also asked if I'd had a hysteroscopy or other test to evaluate my uterine cavity, which Geeta hasn't mentioned.

But what I was most struck by - and  perhaps this will affect some of you too - is that Feinman, despite being a straight-talking, no-nonsense American doctor who thinks the British clinic system is silly in its conservatism with older women, also admitted that basically, Create Health have done very well by me, and that I couldn't expect anywhere else to do much better, including his own clinic. While he might have thrown back a few more embryos just for good measure, or possibly upped my meds slightly, he thinks I should have another go with Create and that there isn't really much more he could do to improve my chances. (If I'm going for DE that's another question, but he thinks I should try with my own eggs at least once more.) 

Geeta also was very positive about me and said she's surprised I'm not pregnant already. 

Both said it was fine to take a few months off.

So my thinking is this; another one at Create maybe in March or April, what do you all think?

How is everyone?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

It's certainly much cheaper than going to the States... Did Geeta suggest higher dose?  It is certainly a good option with re to your donor. I think it's a diff. ball game ttc with anonymous donor....

Lee is I think v. stressed out and overworked... and it's probably hard to have empathy in those circumstances....


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Sally,
Was it the same donor sperm you used for your treatments? From what we were told, if it is ejaculated sperm or epidydmal/ percutaneous sperm, then freezing makes no difference to the quality (providing it thaws). It is only testicular sperm which can cause problems with things. Judging by reading threads on these boards, a man's sperm quantity and quality can vary greatly between one treatment and the next, so that could be one theory?  It must be reassuring for you to know that the American doc thinks you are on the right track. Very comforting what Geeta has said too. I am sure the break will do you good. March and April have always been my best times to cycle too!
Incon, re whether I have done anything to prepare for cycling. I feel like I am perpetually dieting.    I am not officially overweight, ie have healthy BMI but I am not happy with my weight. I am a stone heavier than when I got married, but I cannot shift it. Anyway the past few weeks I have given up (again) and am going to enjoy Christmas.  We go to India in less than 3 weeks and the boys have had bad sickness viruses one after the other, so I've been feeling a bit stressed trying to get everything done.  Chocolate is my biggest vice and I always cut right down on caffeine ready for cycling. I will turn over a new leaf in January. I sent a cheque off for a copy of my notes today, so gradually things are beginning to happen.
How's everyone else? 
Hope you are ok Emma!    
Love Prija


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## Hopeful emma (Apr 10, 2007)

hello everyone,

just been catching up with all your news, phew lots has been happening. i wont do personals as i am at work and would get sacked by the time i had done them all! but to let you know i think you are all doing great and making some very important decisions very well. 

I have had a traumatic two weeks with increasing dizzy spells and trips to a&e and all sorts. not excatly the way i would recommend  going through the 2ww.

i seem to be on the mend now with the diagnosis some kind of inner ear thing and too many hormones raging round my body.

also AF visited today so that is the end of my ivf journey. it hasnt quite sunk in that i will never have another baby, i guess that will take some time. I am relieved that  i can stop thinking about tx and concentrate on me and getting detoxed and relaxed and happy again. this last tx has been the hardest for me as it wasnt the right time. so i guess for all of you who are wondering whether to wait or not that would be my advice, wait until your feel emotionally ready (as you can be!) and really look after yourselves really well.

I will dip in from time to time to see how you are all going as i will be thinking about you lots but might not post for a while. however heartbroken i am, i am pleased to be stepping off the rollercoaster for a bit.

big hugs for you all

emma xxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Emma - am so sorry to hear your news.... I think you sounded OK throughout...I mean we have some major wobblers here on the thread (  ), but you certainly weren't one of them...  I hear what you are saying in terms of emotional readiness.... Thx for that as I was in a major dilemma today whether to give it a go this month anyway....And then again in Jan... STill deliberating....Not sure taht it's worth the effort for one follie... But desperate circumstances hence desperate measures contemplated... 

You may still have a break and think it over Xmas and maybe have another go in the new year?  Or are definite that this is your last ttc?  You still produce a fair no of eggs, you know... I would give anything for 4 or 5...  I can only max get two...so you are doubly more fertile....  Maybe a little bit of DHEA to boost quantity/quality  Why make it so final?  Who knows maybe it's my desperation to have a bio offspring that is making me fight to the last follicle I have and I certainly haven't got many...

Take care of yourself... I am really sorry that this hasn't worked for you ... and I hope you'll reconsider over Xmas... We may still be cycle buddies in Jan


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh Emma, I'm so sorry.  

Incon, I want to kick your DH around the room until some sense is dinned into his little male brain!!

Sally, I think take the American docs advice and stick with Create.  Maybe put your donor on mega vits and royal jelly and see if that makes a diff to his sperm count.  Can't hurt can it?  Take a break and go again.  Mabye talk to Geeta about the slight tweaks he suggested, and see what she says about assisted hatching.

As for Lee, I know she was overstretched and busy blah blah, but she's seriously upset so many people that it's blatantly obvious she's in the wrong job.  I hope she does better elsewhere, and I hope it isn't in the infertility field!


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh Emma,
I am so so sorry!    
You know we are here anytime if you want to talk!
Take good care of yourself! 
Lots of love,
Prija


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## dixie9000 (Feb 15, 2007)

Emma

So sorry to hear your news    

Take your time to get over it and look after yourself.  

Dixie x


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

gosh - lots posted on here the last couple of days!

sorry to hear your news Emma    Best of luck for whatever you decide is right for you next and thanks for your support. Hope your ear gets better soon.

Sally - that all sounds v promising for you    I kind of liked the no nonsense American answers!! 

Incon - yes am feeling ok with my decision. Am frustrated that Christmas and New Year are falling now, but there's nothing I can do about that. I think Sally hit the nail on the head saying that this time of year hightlights what is missing. I just need to look after myself and try not to go too     over this season. January is not really that far away after all. It will be December by the weekend and there's all that shopping to do  
I hope you manage to come to a decision soon too. Getting on the donor egg list sounds positive - and hopefully your DP will come round in a bit more time too. If he is anything like mine he can only process one thing at a time so me throwing out what ifs and other options just makes him revolt. It helps me to think that there are other options though.

Hi Prija, Julianne, Dixie  

Had scan at CH yesterday - Lee did it but got Geeta to pop in for a look and I now feel properly reassured that things are ok for cycling.

lots of love to all  
coughsweet


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Wow, what a busy twenty-four hours this has been!

First of all Emma, I am so, so sorry. The IVF thing brings with it a unique kind of grief and it doesn't always hit us when we expect it to; for instance, you might be fine one day and rubbish the next and so on, and you can never quite predict what will happen when. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I detect some relief in your tone as well? Whatever it is you do feel or end up deciding, I hope you will be very gentle with yourself in these upcoming weeks and months. 

Prija....Yes, his sperm is ejaculated. Ordinarily, his count is excellent! It was just this last time when the LFC stupidly declined to tell us that they'd used all four ampules so that we had to get a last minute donation (which the poor guy had to travel over from abroad to do - he lives on the Continent now, more or less) with less than 24 hours notice and three days abstinence from masturbation, so that rather than the usual 68 million it was down to 22 million and didn't survive the thaw so well. 

Exciting about India too! Is that where you're from? (I've been trying to work out the origin of your name.)

Thanks for the advice Julianne...agree with you about Lee; I don't think overwork excuses anybody. Geeta asked me yesterday what I feel is lacking in this arena and I said that there seems to be few decent counselling facilities or emotional support for women in our position. (For my part, I have met with two fertility counsellors, both pretty useless or a bit mad in their own right.) Geeta said she whole heartedly agrees but maybe needs to look closer to home. 

Coughsweet, sounds like you've made the right decision. The holidays will fly by!

How are you doing, Incon? Thanks for your latest advice re. the CGH thing...I've posted a note to both Feinman and Geeta.

By the way, Geeta was on Woman's Hour, Radio 4, last Wednesday the 21st, with Robert Winston I think. I haven't heard it yet but you can listen to it online.


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Sally,
No I'm not Indian, but DH is. I struggled to find a username years ago when I registered on the site, so I picked my favourite girl's name!
Hi everyone!
Love Prija


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hello guys, 

Prija - I think you are a star for wanting to have another baby and having the energy to do it....travelling all the way to London....Hope you have a nice time in INdia... Have your children got INdian names/English ones or international?  

Sally - good stuff you pointed out to Geeta the lack of counselling and all that... They have a counsellor... Charges ?£75 quid, which is quite a bit...Lee mentioned it to me yesterday... Don't know what the prices  are these days...I was paying privately 4-5 yrs ago about £40...so maybe it's the market rate... 

When are you cycling then?  Maybe you can use the time for a holistic approach... royal jelly, bee polen, acu, Chinese herbs ... the lot... and get your bod in a fantastic shape and then have a go...

Coughsweet - am sure you will be fine for waiting... It's only 6 wks and you are 36...so plenty of time ...It's important that you feel strong as you will need all the strength to deal with this....
I hope you are going for a stimulated cycle and not the natural one... Read a paper yesterday that natural cycles are only effective for under 35 's.  

Julianne - any decisions as to when you're cycling...?  You sound well... Hope Rich has overcome his fears...  

Emma - hope you are OK....    .  You have got your boy, which is a blessing...Hopefully you can have some rest and relaxation over Xmas....  

Dixie - hope all is well at the ARGC...

Lee  rang me yesterday i/o Geeta and told me that stimulated cycles give me a better chance and that I won't lose my fertility (or what's left of it) in 6 wks... Also shared with me that she could think of only 1 case where they were successful with smb in a similar situation to mine... That's over 3 yr period... I pushed her a bit re my chances and appreciate her honesty ....  She said that she wouldn't want to be in my situation... V. diplomatic good old Lee, eh?  But I got what I asked for... So, I am not complaining... 

Anyhoo - feel a bit exhausted with all this... Not ready for donor eggs but aware that I should go on the list if I want to do it in the summer...  This is without a doubt the hardest thing I have ever dealt with...and I have dealt with some pretty tough stuff in the past....


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi everyone,
Incon. sorry you're feeling so exhausted, which is only natural given what you have gone through. What do you have to do to go on list for donor eggs and is it a long wait? I am sure you are right that this must be the most stressful thing to have to go through, far more stressful than moving house etc.
Emma, hope you are feeling OK, I have no doubt you will feel bad for some time, but hopefully it will become easier day by day. Very early days yet of course.
Hope everybody else is well today.
Incon. my boys have English names and a Portuguese surname (Portuguese Goan descent). I am told they look Mediterranean too. 
Take care everyone!
Love Prija


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Oh, I just need to fill in a questionnaire with my details so taht they can look for a match... It's the act of doing it that 's difficult.... It's just admitting it to yourself that it's the end of journey with own eggs and letting go and all that... That's the hard bit... 

If I were less emotional about this I should have really done it in the summer with a view to cycle till Jan/Feb with own eggs and then go straight for donor if all else fails...but it's it the hardest bloody decision I have ever made in life and I have felt v. wobbly about it hoping against hope...  It feels like a lost a child and I have never even had one... It's a bereavement of a sort... I try to tell myself that my mum did lose a child and she still managed to have some happy moments afterwards and can be v. optimistic that makes me think that one day I will be able to do the same... It's all a bit doom and gloom at the mo...including dh...

Are you looking forward to cycling then?


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Here's the link to Geeta's appearance on Radio 4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/03/2007_47_wed.shtml

/links


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hello everyone,

I must put my hands up to being a secret lurker, as I am an old St Georges house girls.......

Wanted to post because I have been reading your comments about the _'lovely'_ Lee and they make me sad....... We complained about Lee way back in June!! I started going to Raynes park way back in the summer 2005 and they were wonderful back then.... the nurse back then was Lizzie who was the most amazing, compassionate person you could find, nothing was too much bother for her.... sadly she moved onto pastures new ( the lister I think) the replacement Lee, was a terrible shock to our system i can tell you!! her history is that she worked/s at St Georges NHS unit in Tooting....... she, to me, was the epitome (sp) of whats typical of the NHS!! it really showed up in a clinic that previously had been v v v caring!! needless to say our cycle didn't work and the way we had been treated during that cycle really pushed my OH to the point of him stamping his foot down and saying 'no more' so it was our last go, if I can ever get him to think about it again, I know we would have to change clinics because I have lost my faith in them as a whole.......

Geeta was/is a great doctor I feel/felt she always has your best interests/health at heart and she generally doesn't mince her words, I just hope they sort the issue of the nursing staff out!!

Hugs and lots of    for you all

Debs
xxxxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Glad I wasn't being oversensitive...  

How is everybody...?


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi everyone, I'm new here.  And thank you, Coughsweet, for directing me to this thread.  It’s great to find others who are using the same clinic as we are and have opted for similar treatment. 

Just as a way of introducing myself I am 39 (2 months away from 40!), DH 36 and we’ve been told IVF is likely to be our only chance of conceiving due to poor SA.  All seems to be ok with me although I don't suppose I’m as fertile as I was in my twenties!

We have just completed 3 consecutive controlled/natural IVF cycles (Sep, Oct & Nov) with Mrs Nargund at Create Health and have had no luck.  The first one failed at EC when the egg could not be retrieved from the follicle despite several attempts to flush it out.  We were told this doesn’t usually happen and basically it was very bad luck.  The second time an egg was retrieved and did fertilise but on the day of ET had not divided so ET was cancelled.  Again, we were told this was unusual and was just bad luck.  The third time we had a good 4-cell embryo transferred but ended in BFN just a week ago now, which we were devastated about and still down about.  Perhaps I was expecting too much after my first ever ET?

I don’t know where to go from here really because a 4th try of the same treatment could just end up the same way and we live in Spain and have to travel to London each time which is really disruptive to our lives. 

Anyway, I look forward to exchanging views and information...

Alba
x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Alba - hasn't Geeta suggested you do a mildly stimulated cycle whereby you would work on getting 2 -3 eggs or maybe more if you respond well to drugs and you would have much better odds... What success rates they have all seem to have been on stimulated cycles... They don't even have stats for natural ivf.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Am i the only sad person lurking on the boards?


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

No Inconceivable, you are not alone

We are both in a very similiar position - you and I.

We both are 40, 
We both have suffered baby losses
We both have low response to IVF drugs
We are both undergoing mildly stimulated cycles
We are both considering the last alternative of DE

And lastly we are both sad, but we are alive,well and bloody well trying our damm best to have a baby.

What more can we ask of ourselves.

A big  hug sister, youre not alone and we will have a happy ending.

Odettexxxxxxx


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Hello to all our new ladies!  

Fidget it's so nice to have some support on the Lee issue, I know one other person on these boards made an official complaint to the practice manager, and I was nearly there myself.  I made it quite clear I was averse to dealing with her.

You do start to doubt yourself though don't you?  The 'I'm on the IVF treadmill and therefore must be mental' dialogue start in your head and you think it's all you and that you're being mean.  Actually, she caused a lot of unecessary grief for people, and who knows how much business they lost becaue the 'Lee' factor is known about here?  I hope they look closer at her replacement, because it would be a really great clinic if they just got their act together on a few more things.

Alba, I'm also surprised that you weren't put on a soft stim approach.  It's definiately worth discussing with Geeta.


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Well actually I was recommended by Geeta to go for mild stimulation.  It’s just that I’d read of a few natural IVF success stories from CH and thought it was worth a go as I wanted to try to avoid the drugs and hormonal disruption etc if I could.  I knew the success rate was low but thought that a series of 3 treatments might just get the result we wanted.  Perhaps I was being too optimistic I don’t know but we may have to think again now.  With my last un-stimulated treatment they retrieved 4 eggs, 3 of which were probably immature as only 1 fertilised but it makes me wonder whether just a little stimulation is all I need.


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Incon and Julianne,

if I'd thought about it earlier I would have written in support before.. I just didn't want to give up my lurker status too much   

There were just a catalogue of issues with her, before I even started my 3rd cycle really.... having already done 2 full cycles and an abandoned natural one, we felt we knew their system rather well...... (however it wasn't to be, they had changed the whole process in a year, whilst i was recovering from my ectopic.) we had seen Geeta and decided we wanted to cycle again, we discussed dates etc and all was well...... When we were ready to go.. i emailed asking for the prescription so I could source my drugs well ahead of time ( am a bit of a control freak   to be fair) however I didn't hear back at all...... I then phoned and asked what was going etc as my pre scan was going to be very very close to AF arriving and the start of the cycle so it was becoming a bit of an issue... still no answer on the script front..... to cut a long story short we ended up having to purchase our drugs from them and feeling a little done over with it all    I also asked for my script for gestone and she looked down her nose at me and said' things have moved on a tad since then and we now use cyclogest' to say I wasn't very impressed is putting it mildly as Geeta and I had agreed after my first failed cycle that i needed a little extra to prolong my cycle.... I did eventually get my gestone   but it made the whole thing seem like  struggle and as I said before it has put my OH off so badly we wont be cycling again!!  We did discuss all this with Geeta when we finally had our follow up ( again delayed because Lee forgot about me   ) and Geeta was most put out! it is always worthwhile speaking to her if you see her about these issues!! and yes your right you do begin to judge your sanity a little when people who are 'supposed' to be caring for you are like that  

I for one am glad Lee is moving on, it will make life so much nicer for all you lovely ladies  

Debs
xxxxxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Odette - thanks for that.... ARe you doing your mildly stimulated cycle in Barcelona and when are you starting.. I must admit to filling in my questionnaire for the Reprofit last night and then I started crying and cried and cried and couldn't send it... so have saved it in my draft folder to have another look... Should though send it if I want to cycle in the summer as can't rely on my Jan cycle to work...

Alba-
All the people who had success at the Create were on stimulated cycle, although they may have not said so...... It's a miniscule amount of stimulation so it's totally harmless... only 150 gonal F.  
By the sound of it you would have a v. good response and natural cycles are equally stressful and chances are so small... They are also recommended for under 35's rather than people in late 30s and 40s. 


Julianne - when are  you starting then?  Any news from you... How are you and Rich? 
Hello to everybody else...


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Inconceivable,

Thanks for that info - it certainly is interesting to know that most success is via the soft stim approach.  You know, the silly thing about me is that I had no qualms about injecting drugs when they told me it was to control ovulation (Cetrotide and 150 Gonal F daily for 5 days in my last cycle).

I will carry on thinking.  I'm also waiting for feedback from the clinic.  Part of the problem is the extra cost of travelling to the UK etc and I've had to pretty much stop working to fit this in.  Anyway, it won't be forever.


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Inconceivable

Yes, I'm having my next cycle in Barcelona starting in Jan - basicaly because i am a poor responder they are going to put me on a low dose to concentrate more on quality rather on quantity.

They also do DE which is a shorter wait(about a couple of months) than if I had it done in England (a couple of years) which will be my next route.

But one piece of advice - do one thing at a time - if you going between own eggs and DE you will be creating a lot more stress in your life - do you know what I mean?  

I know you need to plan but one step at a time girl. 

Why don't you beleive your Jan cycle won't work?

odettexx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Know about the stress factor but the Reprofit is booking for August /July and as I am a teacher that's a good time to do it...  I can't afford other clinics... ie Spain, for example.... Also my last scan they couldn't see but one follie... and I didn't proceed fearing no response... If I have two follies, I will try mildly stimulated cycle...but then I guess I will have to stop at some point... Geeta said that after this cycle i cannot have any more stimulation as I have had loads and can't do natural cycles, but tbh I don't believe in natural cycles as only 1 follie to work with and all sorts of things can happen..and it's too stressful to do just for one egg...

Have now booked counselling starting from next week as I think I need to put things a bit in perspective and this if thing is getting on top of me and I am not leading a normal life anymore...

How much stimms are you going to be on?  And is this your last cycle with own eggs before donor or you intend to have another go if it doesn't work...


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Incon

I'm not quite sure the dose but its lower than my other cycles - just waiting for clinic to e-mail me prescription. 

I think this will be my last go with my own eggs - but never say never 

Yeah I understand what you mean - if my cycle doesn't work this Jan/Feb I need to start planning for next go during the summer because i also work alongside the school term and the summer is the best time to be dealing with IVF.

Create was on my list but I'm undecided about it.

Where is Reprofit (Russia) and what made you decide to go there?

odettexx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Reprofit is in the Czech Rep. I think whilst donor egg is stressful it is also stressful to cycle with own eggs with small chances of success...They are easy to get to from STansted, good feedback and a lot less expensive than Spain...How much is the mild cycle in Spain?  Are you working full-time or part-time? 

Create is not bad at all.. It is not stressful to cycle compared to the aRGC (bloods on a daily basis).... Also I had more scans from my IUIs than for my ivf at Create...  Lee was a bit abrupt with people, but she was virtually running the clinic, so I could see where the stress was coming from... I think it would be good if they had drs who were available, but I understand that they all work at the nhs as well...

I hope that counselling with help me clarify a few things in my head... Say I feel I am 55% for DE and about 45% against, so quite a bit to work on...  ON the other hand , hard to imagine life without kids...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone, sorry to be out of touch for a few days..

Been a bit of a hedonistic party girl this past few weeks, trying to console myself for last BSN by drowning my sorrows -late nights, friends I've not seen in a while, lots of drinking, going out, lots of flirting. Good for me in a way, though a bit worse for the wear.

Incon, what a bloody time you've had of it - I am not surprised it is really taking its tolls!! Things any better with DH? 

Welcome newcomers Alba and Odette! Odette (or anyone considering DE) a friend of mine is now pregnant with DE twins from America- worked the first time. Another friend was telling me about a place in Kiev that sounds extremely good value both economically and professionally...can find out the names if you wish...

Forgot to mention that Geeta told me that last month, they got several women in their forties - 43 or 44 - pregnant with low stims.

Strange time for me. Just ovulated and my 'friend' (the one who's been donating) is on a rare stint back in England and offered to give me a 'natural' donation so we've done that a couple of times. Probably an infintesimal chance of getting up the duff but why not? And 'natural' sure beats the hell out of drugs and injections and catheters and having to spend thousands of ££££££'s. 

How is everyone else?


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello
welcome to the new ladies  

Alba - are there no suitable clinics in Spain near you then? It just seems odd  you coming to London as so many ladies on these boards travel from here to Spain. Or is there just nowhere that would do a natural cycle over there?

Incon - I think you're being really brave and it sounds like you are moving through things really well  

Sally - been having a natural go too with some BMS   as you never know miracles do happen  
Not much else to report really for me. Met up with someone local from the Devon FF board yesterday for coffee which was really nice and helped with the PMA.

Hi Julianne, Fidget, Odette  

love coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi guys, 

Hope you are well...

good on you Sally for having a little bit of fun ....  You never know re natural conception... With your ovaries it's not impossible at all...  Gosh ... envy you on the production front... With that no of eggs I would never even consider donor eggs...And you have got a fantastic quality, too... So, I think it's a number game for you....  

Cougsweet - when in Jan are you starting approx?  Am not sure about being brave at all... Hence have booked some counselling to try to sort issues in my head... Not sure about donor egg ... Would be happiest if I could have a bio child by some miracle...  But Geeta looked really worried last time I saw her although she didn't say so... Only said taht I have v. low ovarian reserve...

Oddette - fingers crossed for your Jan cycle... Love to see your PMA...  I somehow feel that one day I will look back and wonder how I managed to get through.  I hope I will be able to feel strong and confident again one day... This infertility malarky has made me v. scared and unconfident and I used to be a different kind of person before.... Are you employed full-time and is it a problem for  you to get time off in January?  
Also if this cycle doesn't work are  you considering donor eggs in Spain? 

Midget - thanks for the info re Create...

Alba - Maybe there is a clinic a Spain who can manage  your cycle...  I would definitely consider a mildly stimulated cycle next time...

Must try to be a bit more constructive today..l.Lots of marking to do...


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Incon

I think I'll be starting about Jan 16th - though my AF is not so regular I can be that definite. My cycles seem to still be a bit longer post-clomid, which is good for me as they were v short before. How about you?

coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

12th jan approx.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Coughsweet, good luck to you trying naturally...Hope you have some fun too.

Incon, I know exactly what you mean; there's nothing to really knock your confidence like trying in vain to conceive. Amazing, too, how your life shrinks....I feel there used to be so much more to me than this. 

It's also worth bearing in mind that we are ALL still, in the great scheme of things, youngish women, even though there's nothing like this kind of malarky to make us feel old! It's worth reminding ourselves that we are still healthy, attractive and youthful even if our ovaries aren't what they were!

I have a question for all of you, some advice I need...Dr. Feinman, the American doctor, differs from Geeta in two respects. First of all, he recommends assisted hatching whereas Geeta feels that would be totally unnecessary for me. Secondly - and more importantly I think - he strongly recommends I do a hysteroscopy (she again thinks it's unnecessary.) I'm going to be in the States for a month from xmas to the end of January and can have it done for $800 (about £400) which I think is a lot less than it costs here.

What do you all think? Do you reckon I should?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - it won't do any harm to check if there are any other obstacles in there....In your case the cost may be more justified than in mine.  Taranissi is a big fan of hysteroscopies and he believes that 'cleansing', as he puts it, can help you conceive if you cycle immediately afterwards...If you watched the Panorama programme on the ARGC you would see that Geeta criticised hysteroscopies and IVIG in particular on the account that it's more economics than medicine.  

The Russian - Altra Vita - for donor eggs, for example, recommend a byopsy for the same reason as Taranissi likes hysteroscopy - a v. controversial theory but there is some research indicating that they may be onto sth...  So, it depends on a particular dr's theory... A bit like in psychotherapy... different schools of thought....

I did my hysteroscopy at the ARGC for £ 1000.  (£400 sounds like good value.)  It may have not been necessary strictly speaking especially when you take into account my poor response.  I would probably decline it from this perspective but back then I would have done anything... Also a friend who used to work for a fertility clinic said that her dr was pushing it bcs of money rather than itb eing a medical necessity...So really it's a tough call ....Can be a bit of both ... 

Re assisted hatching - a girl called Sure 39 has just cycled at the ARGC for the 2nd time and did the assisted hatching this time and is preggers... 
My cousin also conceived with assisted hatching on her 10th ivf attempt... She didn't do it in previous cycles... She did blasts + assisted hatching and bingo ... it worked after 9 yrs of infertility...And her embies were not of great quality and still she made it...  

Geeta is for everything natural...She is also against ICSI if she can help it...But I think sometimes it doesn't do any harm to help the nature along....

In your position I would seriously consider the STates for the following reasons:

a/ you would get more monitoring that you get at the Create ie only two scans so that perhaps medication can be adjusted accordingly 
b/ a bit more stimulation to produce a few more embryos would probably help and you would have some frosties, too...
c/assisted hatching seems to help to penetrate thick zona which is often present in us oldies.
d/he may tweak the protocol maybe i/o one size fits all approach 
e/ he is allowed to put more embies and therefore give u a better chance, more than 3 I read someplace - Would you consider that?  

Advantages to cycle at Geeta's are considerable, too and it's mainly the cost and convenience of it all...
Can you not request/insist on assisted hatching and pay extra if you are cycling at Geeta's ...


Re my previous comments : 
I hope I can somehow get my self-esteem back... I must say I envy people who have decided not to have kids and are happy with that decision... I just wander whether my best mate is a bit dishonest about it... She must be at the v. least ambivalent as I recall her nearly crying when she talked about her dh not wanting kids...


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Inconceivable

The mild stimulatyed cycle in Spain is £3,500 euros (£2,500) plus drugs but I just got the prescription e-mailed yesterday and if I've calculated right its going to be very cheap  - less than £400-500 because of the low dosage.  I better check that 

I'm self-employed (children's week-end performing arts school) and work Friday evenings and Sat all day and the rest of the week is my own (although I still trend to work some hours during the week. I can probably get out to Spain during mid-week for EC and ET. 

What's PMA?

So , youre starting again on the 12th Jan - I'm starting in Jan also.

I'd like to just relax this Christmas and not think about fertility issues.

Hi to Sally2, coughsweet, Alba 68, Julianne, Fidget  

odettexx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

So the price is roughly the same as at Geeta's for a stimulated cycle  £ 2200 + meds are around £750, but can be sourced from Fazeley for a lot less... Girls, Fazeley, I have checked charges £ 94.17 for 300 pen and £282 for 900 and Ali charges a bit more £ 320 for 900 pen and £107 for 300.. He is based in Shagwell... E1...   . (Typo, OK!)  Tel:  01827 for Fazeley and Ali is 0207 7909 150.  

I also work just one day a week at the mo doing supply as it would be impossible to accommodate time for scans during treatment... Had 3 days but cancelled 2 as was too stressful during ttc, but am getting too addicted to ff and going a bit   so will look for more work after Jan ttc... Maybe even get a permanent post... Part-time would be nice but definitely more than one day...

Don't know how people make a transition to donor eggs and I don't know how does one ever get to that point... It just feels so awful and devastating...But people tell me this is a normal feeling    If only I could produce one perfect egg in Jan and have a big fat pos......  

PMA - POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE...

How is the rest of the crew... Sorry to throw my donor egg dilemmas at you so to speak....  

Julianne - when are you cycling? 

Cougsweet - I hope you are having a stimulated cycle... 

Sally - good luck with decision-making...

Prija -


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Hey guys, my head is spinning a bit with all the techno stuff!

Are we cycling.  Ummm, no.  We still have the azoospermia issue to sort out.  I've been in contact with the best Andrologist in London (Mr Minhas), which of course costs a fortune.  They're attached to the Lister, so it figures.  His office is however, a total dream to deal with.  Create could learn a thing or two!

Having discussed back and forth about what to do, we've decided to wait to do another SA test.  I'm worried that the fever Rich had a month ago would return another zero sample.  We want to see what good diet, the vits and no fevers will do for his count.  He was going to have it on Sat, but we decided to delay it as the bloods are another thing altogether.  If we had their clinic do all the Karotyping, chromosome tests and whatnot it would cost around £500 (on top of £200 per consultation and £110 for the SA) *gulp*.  

They are very sympathetic to the lack of pennies and we've come up with a plan to try and get the majority of the bloods done on the NHS.  Our docs won't like it because they're so expensive and probably classed as 'non essential' or something, and there's possibly one test they can't do anyway, but seeing as our PCT won't allow us a funded cycle they can sodding well let us have this at least.  I will scream if I have to, I know there's at least one loooooooong loud scream stuck at the back of my throat.

Anyway, Mr Minas's wonderful assistant Mary is going to send me the definitive test list and I'll wave it at the doctors and we shall see.  The bummer of it is that these tests take AGES to come back.  We're talking early Feb for the results if we do it now.  Ho hum....


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

Incon - yes - I am doing a stimulated ICSI cycle in Jan

Julianne - sounds like you are doing all you can for the moment. Hope the Dr is sympathetic about doing as much as poss on NHS. 

Odette - nice that we will all be fellow cyclers

Sally - if it's niggling away as a worry for you about doing a hysteroscopy then I would do it for peace of mind if nothing else - £400 sounds a good price.

Love to everyone else 

coughsweet


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi all

We are going to see Geeta at create in wimbledon for an initial consultation on Friday so was interested to read all your thoughts and experiences.....

Coughsweet - do you mind my asking what % abnormal sperm your DH has? My DH's last SA showed only 8% normal so we were wondering whether we would need ICSI as well.

Also do people think it is best to try a full stimulated cycle first before trying the soft-stimm approach? My FSH is quite high at 8.9 but my periods are regular.

ANy advice appreciated!

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Wiggie - my dh had 10% normal forms at the ARGC and we were ICSIed... Geeta also said if the sample is not better we would need icsi...

It may be worth trying a soft stimulated cycle....


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Wiggie I think it's better to do it the other way around if you can.  Going full stim is very hard on your ovaries (hell, what isn't it hard on?) and from what I've read it can affect the success rate at EC on a natural or soft cycle.


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello Wiggie - welcome  

My DH has done 3 SAs over the course of a year - which came back at 98%, 93% and 96% abnormal. We've had different opinions from the clinics we've been to - no one rules out the chance of a natural pg completely - but really ICSI has been recommended as our best chance. (And we feel now it's been over 2 years of trying that it's time for a different action plan). The plan is to do a soft stim ICSI at CH and then if needed a full stim at Bristol. For us it has just come about doing it that way because Bristol were moving and therefore could not fit us in as soon. But I think it's not a bad idea to do a soft cycle first as then I can see how well I respond to the drugs and it also might be less of a shock all round. 

 with your appt - let us know how you get on

love coughsweet x


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I'm kind of getting the picture from all your comments that soft stimulation is probably the way to go.  Do you think doing a natural/controlled every 3 or 4 months or so interspersed with trying naturally is a total waste of time? (Trying naturally would be hoping for a miracle though) 

With regard to ICSI/IVF etc for SA with high % abnormals we had 89% abnormal last time and they said at LFC that the sample fell way below their parameters for doing IVF and ICSI was their recommendation.  However, we went ahead with IVF and achieved fertilisation, which I found very interesting.  Geeta has always recommended ICSI in our case too.

Also I know it seems ridiculous to travel so far but the 3 clinics near me do not seem to be very receptive to the idea of low stimulation (and when you mention natural they think you're mad!).  They just seem a bit inflexible to me and I feel very comfortable with Geeta now.  Also it means I get see a bit of my family! 

Hi Wiggie, I didn't realise an FSH level of 8.9 was high.  Mine was 8.7 last year and I thought that was good!  Mind you I do remember Geeta saying that 8.7 would indicate that it was on its way up.  But I think she goes more by antral follicle count.


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

If you've got a high percentage of abnormal sperm then I think it's a bit of a numbers game.  Even if the eggs fertilise, they can't tell which ones are going to be non-starters due to spermy abnormalities.  Probably you're best off going soft stim and having more than one egg per time so that one day you might get that bingo moment when a normal egg is put back and bob's your uncle, it sticks!

How does everyone feel about the announcement that they're only going to transfer one embryo - no matter what.  I think that's based on the Danish study, but the Danes do things differently in some way (I read here anyway) so it's not relevant and not fair.  I hope that the ruling is for the under 35's only, or we could be in for an even rougher ride than we already get.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Julianne - people will just go abroad for treatment bcs set transfer would be v. expensive at the prices charged... It's possible if the clinics reduce the cost, but with the prices they charged it's simply not economically viable and people are more likely to up the sticks...  Turkey, Russia, Ukraine - are all willing to transfer more and charge less...  It won't affect me as I am nearing the end of the game, but I feel for the people it will affect...

Alba - yes, soft stimms is likely to be better for you as it gives you more of a chance and it's less likely to go wrong... The best of luck for your next go...

Where is everybody anyway....?  5 wks to go before treatment....  .


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks guys - you've given me a lot to think about. Will let you know how we get on with Geeta tomorrow. 

Either way I am keen to start cyling in Jan 08 - it will either be with Create or at Guys - so we need to make a decision pretty soon. After so many tests, investigations, operations etc in the last year, we now just want to get on with it.

Alba - re: FSH levels - up to 10 is I think fine, after that it suggests reduced ovarian reserve. At Guys they said they consider the "normal" range to be up to 12.6, but that some other clinics say 10 is the max - hence mine being at the upper end.

I have only just learned about antral follicle counts - having had an ultrasound 2 weeks ago! I had a total count of 10 which is I think slightly low, a good count being 15 or more, is that correct?

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

It's a good count wiggie...Dont' worry...


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

I had an antral count of 10 in each and was told it was excellent (for my age anyway)


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

You are super fertile girls... How old are you both....  Let me tell you about the low count... I have only 2 antral follicles....


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Julianne - 10 follicles on each is fantastic! I'm 38 and only have half as many as you.....

Incon - did you have natural or soft stimms on your last cycle at Create? Geeta seemed to think soft stimm would be the way to go when we met her today. She was very charming - however avoided answering our questions on success rates. We also weren't clear about the relationship between Create and the LFC and whether there is any continuity between the two - what was your experience? My DH said that its seems like "outsourcing" the EC and ET work. He is not entirely convinced by the set up and thinks that Geeta is a bit of a sales woman - but he can see the benefit of the low dosage drugs approach.

Wiggie


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Wiggie - I was recommended to do the natural cycle...HOwever, thought it through and decided that it would be the same as IUI...and I requested a stimmed cycle.  Anyhow, stimmed, had three follies and then on EC no eggs or rather they were stuck on the follicle walls and they couldn't get them out... Or that's what I was told...

They outsource the EC to the LFC... You don't get as much supervision as at other clinics, but I suppose that is reflected in the price... They simply haven't got the resources for that as all the drs seem to work for the NHS as well... So you get 2 scans, one blood test and then the rest is LFC... 

I would recommend the low stimm approach as natural approach seems to be a waste of time in my books... Aslo you could cycle for a cut price as your antral count indicated a v. promising response... 

I must admit that I was hopeful in spite of my low ovarian reserve as all other indicators looked promising...The best lining ever, good oestradiol levels indicating I had eggs...and then zilch...

Stats - they don't have stats for natural cycle indicating that there is not much to show in terms of success rates... I queried Lee and dr Khan and all their stats  (they acknowledged somewhat reluctantly) are based on stimmed cycles...

Feeling a bit stuck... How do I shake this off?    Where is everybody?


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Everyone!
I have been following what has been happening and wish you the very best of luck, but I can't offer much at present as I am waiting for my appointment.
I am going to India next Friday, so have had so much to do with the packing etc. I will be back in January and will then be on a huge health drive in anticipation of further treatment.
In the meantime I wish you all the very best of luck and best wishes for Christmas   and the New Year and may 2008 make all your dreams come true!  
Lots of love and luck, 
Prija


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello all  

have a super time Prija 

Hi Incon - am still here! - sorry you are feeling stuck hun   I'm trying to use this time as an opportunity to forget it all as much as possible really. I know it's always in the background but there is plenty to be getting on with charging around doing Christmas shopping and getting things done before end of term. January will come round soon enough and there's nothing I can do about it in the meantime. I hope we can all find a bit of peace somehow over the Christmas holdiays   

I am trying to finish a piece of coursework too which is a good distraction! 

How is everyone else doing?    

love coughsweet


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi coughsweet,

Are you studying?  Am about to book a holiday over Xmas period and try to get away from it all...


Prija - you have a lovely time in India....


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Incon

well, I work full-time but I am doing an AS level in creative textiles as an evening class. It's been good but I need to get on with it and hand the first module in at the beginning of next term - and I still have some way to go!
Wish we were going somewhere over Christmas - a proper holiday sounds marvellous - hope you find somewhere nice

love coughsweet x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Wow, we're all very quiet right now.  How is everyone?


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Julianne
Yes isn't it quiet  
I'm a bit   at the moment it has to be said. Just the whole marking another Christmas and New Year without a bub or pg is difficult as I'm sure you know. 
But I do like Christmas though and am looking forward to doing all the festive things - carol services, presents, EATING! Am trying to do a bit of dieting so I can   out on Christmas day! V difficult when there are so many boxes of chocolates hanging around in the office 

How are you doing hun?

love coughsweet x


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Julianne and Coughsweet,

Sorry to hear you're feeling a bit low, Coughsweet.  I have to say I am too and have found it a lot harder than I thought to put my failed IVF attempts behind me.

I wonder whether anyone can advise me on something.  Geeta told me yesterday that I should have a uterine polyp removed (I think it's less than 1cm) and then go back for a PIVF ?? scan to reassess things and take it from there.  Now, I had a quick look at the price of doing this privately and came up with £3000 (LFC)!!  There's just no way I can afford that on top of any more treatment.  Do you reckon it's worth trying to get it done on the NHS?

I'm just feeling a bit at my wits end as it just seems to be one thing after another.  I asked if it was absolutely necessary and the doctor who called me told me that Geeta thinks it is worth doing.  Has anyone else had any experience of this?

Alba
X


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi alba
You can get this done on the NHS.  The only thing is time...  IT's worthwhile checking what's the wl in your pct.  Ity's also worthwhile shopping around..  ARGC for example do hysteroscopies for £ 1000.  It may be worthwhile checking whether they can remove the polyp during hysto... I think they do it at the same time as hysto ... Aslo worthwhile checking the LIster... The LFC are not cheap when it comes to surgery... Their GIFT procedure for example, costs £ 5000 whilst at the UCG the same procedure is £3000.  This is because they use the Portland hospital facilities as they haven't got their own for this kind of procedure... So, definitely worth shopping around.. I think if you can get the ARGC like price, it may not be worth waiting at the NHS for 6 months as at 39 time is of the essence... (I say this from experience).  

Coughsweet - not long to go now...

Where is everybody else.?


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Incon,

Thank you so much for your post.  What you mention about waiting lists is exactly the first thought I had and as you quite rightly say I haven't got 6 months to throw away!  I think I will certainly start the process just to see how long I would have to wait with the NHS but have in the back of my mind that I may well have to fork out to have it done.  

Anyway, it's reassuring to see that there are places that will do it for less than the LFC.  I thought first of the LFC because that's what I'm now familiar with but of course it doesn't have to be them.

I hope everyone else is bearing up and ready to let their hair down a bit at Christmas!  And then on with a really successful year for us all.... 

Alba  
X


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Alba

sorry you're having to put up with this as well    I have a polyp too but Geeta checked it out at my last scan and didn't think it was worth removing - so I would go with her opinion if I were you. If mine grows I may well have to get rid of it too so I will be interested to hear what you find out about prices at different clinics. £3000 is certainly not what you need on top of treatment costs  

Hope despite all the setbacks everyone's managing to find a bit of festive spirit?    Am going to do a bit of zooming around the shops this afternoon once I leave work.

Hey Incon - did you manage to book a holiday over Christmas in the end?

love coughsweet x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi girlies,

Can I come pick your brains?

As you can see from my signiture I have had 3 neg cycles of IVF and not sure what to do nxt.  I've just read my donor book and this is prob where I will end up however wanted to give another clinic a whirl, only ever used barts and I always felt like they left me too long before EC.  

Just can't decide between CREATE soft stimms or to go to Turkey.  

With Create where do you have all your scans?  I know they have one place in London and one in wimbeldon?  

What I don't really want is to be riped off which they seem to do fromwhat I've heard, adding on lots of additional stuff like expensive scans and having to pay for info sessions.

Anyone on here got preg?!  Anyway your throughts greatly appreciated.


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello laurab  

Sorry to hear of your negative cycles  - and hope 2008 turns out to be your year!  

no one preg on this thread yet - however we are only a v small group and several of us have not even had any treatment yet so it's a bit unfair to judge Create on that. (Welshbird got pg at Create though if you want to look at her profile). Also we are mostly over 35 yrs. 

I am going to do my first cycle of ICSI there in January. I just want to do a soft cycle first really and see how I get on with it. If no luck am planning a full stim cycle at Bristol next as it is a good clinic closer to home. I have read that some people who do not respond well to stims do better with soft stims as no doubt you have. 
I don't feel that I have been ripped off so far. I have been to the Wimbledon clinic - I guess you can ask to go to whichever is easiest for you to get to. If you keep reading this thread I will be reporting back along the way next month as to how it goes!
I have read v good reports of Turkey on here though. 
When are you actually planning to cycle again? Do you have a bit of thinking time before going again?

not sure this helps with your questions at all but nice to hear from you  
love coughsweet x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

I suspect that Create are one of the lesser rip-offs in London, the downside is the 'Lee factor' which won't be a problem soon as she's leaving, and their known communication hiccups.  Once you get to grips with how you have to deal with them it's not too bad, but occasionally they'll have you tearing your hair out.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi girls,

CS - we do have time to think about things but with my ovarian reserve as it is I'm not really sure I have much time, we also have my sister as a back up but as she already 35 that is time limited so I don't feel we have alot of thinking time.

Juli - I'm at Barts at thye moment and they are pretty rubbish at getting back to you so hopefully creat will not be too much of a shock!  I've heard they charge you £100 to go to the info session which you have to go to and its £200 for a scan!  Hence why I was worrying about the rip-off factor!

How long did you have to wait for a appointment?

XX


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Laurab

Bless your sister - that is kind. I see what you mean about feeling time pressure. 

I don't know how long it takes for an appt at the moment - we booked quite far in advance because we had other commitments like a holiday - but we could have had an appt sooner. Why not just give a ring and make an appt - you could always cancel it if you change your mind. It might be worth going for the initial appt just so as you can meet Geeta and see how you feel about the place as it's really about what you would feel most comfortable doing rather than anyone else's opinion. Once you've had the initial appt and been given the all clear it seems that you can start treatment pretty much straight away. 

Yes you will need one scan (which personally I would try and do just after your AF so things are clear for them to see) and the induction session for an IVF or ICSI cycle and these do cost, however, overall their prices are cheaper than other places even with this costs. 

Hope you manage to find a bit of peace of mind over Christmas. It's v hard this time of year and difficult too when you are trying to decide what to do  

love coughsweet x


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi message to Prija really

Hope u dont mind me jumping on here just read your profile and you sound so much like me, have 2 gorgeous boys, 1st in 1999 had heart condition, ttc after worryng bout any more probs with nxt pg had ICSI in 04 failed, then 2nd time worked had little un, last 2 ICSI cycles this yr both m/cs recent one last week with suspected ectopic b4 the m/c happened. i still want to try again but DH worried about all the drugs, thinking about natural/mild IVF but dont know if it works with ICSI our embies often dont develop properly, poor quality. do u know if mild ivf suits ICSI? i need to persuade DH to have another go over the xmas hols so we can try again in March ish, give me time to get back to some kinda normality

if u can advise would b grateful, helped to read bout someone else who had kids but also wants to try again, lots of my family think i should give up
ManiT


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi all

Firstly just to say that there have been successes via Create - Hattie  (see London thread) got a BFB with twins on 2nd attempt with ICSI there.

LauraB - it's normally a 6 week wait for initial appointments at Create, so worth booking one up even if you're not sure yet. They charge £160 for the consultation. In terms of total price for a tx cycle they are pretty reasonable - works out as a similar price to Guys for an ICF cycle and slightly less for ICSI. 

Mani - we were told that we might need ICSI, which they can still do even with mild stimms. The whole process is the same as a normal tx cycle in that respect. The only downside is the number of eggs, we were told that they normally get 2-7 eggs with mild stimms. We were also told that natural cycles were not an option for us (I think due to my age and follicle count) - the natural cycle has a low success rate similar to IUI, and I think they only recommend it in younger patients.

Coughsweet - good luck with your cycle in Jan - keep us posted as to how you get on! We have decided to go straight for the full stimmed cycle at Guys in the end, but may go back to Create if I find that we don't get anywhere will that.

Have a great Xmas everybody, and best of luck in 2008!

Wiggie x


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks Wiggie - and best of luck for your tx cycle in January too     

Hello ManiT   - not sure how long Prija is away for Christmas but I'm sure she'll appreciate your post on her return. Best of luck with whatever you decide and hope your DH is supportive about having another go.

A very happy Christmas to everyone on this thread  
with love and thanks for helping me stay sane(ish) through this
coughsweet


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Merry Christmas girls.... hope to get to know you all better in 2008. XX


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hay girls,

Just to let you know CREATE have posted there stats for 2007 on there web site... fornat IVF I thought they really good.  Especially for older ladies (that prob includes me as I have grannys ovaries!).

So I've emailed them some questions and asked them for an appointment.. 

XX


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everybody!!

I am so sorry not to be in touch for so long....I have been mad busy and now I am in Los Angeles for a month. Yet I am very keen to update you on what's been going on with me, as may need some advice soon..

Yesterday I had this procedure, the hystopingogram I think it's called (it's called tthe HiCozy in Britain - least I think it's the same thing.) The doctor found some kind of obstruction on my right fallopian tube, just from the x-ray itself. He seemed to think it may have something to do with why I haven't been getting pregnant so far, so he seemed pleased about it. The bad news, however, is that a hysteroscopy or whatever it may take to remove it could cost nearly as much as an IVF itself! (In which case it's curtains for me.) However, he told me not to do anything conclusive until meeting with Dr. Feinman (the doctor I spoke to last month) which I will do on Monday. Anyone had a similar experience?

Also, still feeling torn about whether to do my next IVF in Britain or the States. It was Feinman who insisted I have this procedure and he was quite outraged they don't insist upon it in Britain no matter what. In this case, he could be right - if this is the reason I'm not concieving, I may have saved myself a good ten or twelve grand not to mention a lot of stress and heartache! Hence feeling a little cross not only with Geeta but with London Women's Clinic whom I saw last year. 

Anyway, would appreciate your input. Also nice to see some new posters here...am rushing now but will respond to other postings later!

Thanks

Sally X


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

Sally -good to hear from you. I have had a hysterosalopingogram - where they put dye in your tubes and take an x-ray. It probably depends on the consultant as with most things - and in my case they were considering me for IUI. I guess they may have thought IVF was the quickest route for you and therefore looking at tubes not necessary. I can see why you're annoyed though!! Let us know how you get on with the Dr on Monday. 

Laurab - thanks for the info about stats. Glad you are moving along with getting an appt too  

Feeling a bit fed up now. Just a waiting game till AF arrives - which is still some way off. All the BMS has given me so far is a case of Christmas cystitis - nice!! I actually find New Year sets me off more than Christmas so I am trying to come up with a sort of ceremony for bringing in the New Year in a more positive fashion. Writing down all the crap things from last year and burning them for starters!

love to all
coughsweet x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

When I had my lap on the NHS I had my tubes checked using dye ('no spill' is not good news!), which I thought was a hysteroscopy, but I really wasn't told very much about what was going on to be honest.  I got the impression there was nothing they could do about it, but I hear about women having their tubes 'blown' all the time, is that the same thing Sally?


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks Coughsweet, though I'm confused...why would this procedure not be necessary for IVF? Does IVF actually bypass the tubes? Dr. Feinman was adamant for me to have this done and quite cross that they don't do it in the UK as a matter of course...So sorry about your cystitus, what a drag! And yes, I like the idea of burning the crap things of 07...here's to a more successful 2008 for us all!

Julianne...I think a hysteroscopy is what I may have to have done to remove whatever is obstruction is there; not what I've just had, which is the HyCozy I believe, called a hysterasalopingogram as well. Don't know what having tubes 'blown' means exactly...will report to you all on Monday. 

Thanks Wiggle for encouraging words about Create!

XS


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi Sally
yes IVF bypasses your tubes completely as the eggs are retrieved from the ovaries and then embryos put back in the womb so no journey down the tubes. It sounds like they haven't really taken on board that you might be trying naturally as well though in which case of course an HSG before now could have been helpful! (There is a definition of an HSG on the Fertility Info guides board - though I couldn't see one for hysteroscopy) 

Best of luck for Monday  

love coughsweet x


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi to everyone,

I understood that the HSG test is routinely carried out when investigating possible causes of infertility and is to check there are no blockages in the Fallopian tubes.  I had mine done once they had checked hormones and done a SA as IUI could have been an option for us if SA hadn't been so bad.  But if IVF is the chosen treatment then the Fallopian tubes are bypassed anyway.  So I guess that if IVF has been chosen in advance then perhaps there is not such an urgent need to check there are no obstructions in the Fall. tubes as they become redundant in this type of treatment.  

I'm still trying to work out what to do with regard to the polyp I need to have removed.  Last week I was told it would involve general anaesthetic.  Anyway, I asked if Geeta could do it and she has referred me to a colleague of hers who works for the NHS but also takes private patients.  I'm just waiting to find out the cost now to see if I can afford to do it this way and possibly save myself quite a bit of time.  Coughsweet, I know you were interested so will keep you posted.

I hope you all get through new year okay and feel mentally fresher to prepare for whatever is ahead....

Alba
X


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

julianne said:


> *When I had my lap on the NHS I had my tubes checked using dye ('no spill' is not good news!), which I thought was a hysteroscopy*





Sally2 said:


> *I think a hysteroscopy is what I may have to have done to remove whatever is obstruction is there; not what I've just had, which is the HyCozy I believe, called a hysterasalopingogram as well. *  Don't know what having tubes 'blown' means exactly...will report to you all on Monday.


A hysteroscopy, an HSG (hysterosalpingogram) and a HyCoSy (hystero-salpingo contrast sonography) are 3 completely different procedures (HSG and HyCoSy not same thing).

An HSG and a HyCoSy are similar in that they involve injecting a dye up through the cervix into the uterus and watch to see it spill out the ends of the tubes. An HSG can show obstructions in the tubes & sometimes abnormalities in womb but a HyCoSy is far clearer...an HSG is like having an xray dye and uses radio contrast dye, whereas a HyCosy uses dye but with similar equipment to having a "dildo cam" internal scan ie sonography rather than xray.

http://www.nufw.com.au/hycosy.htm

http://www.ivf.com/fert_hysterosalpingogram.html

A hysteroscopy is where they check directly inside your womb for any abnormalities by inserting a fine scope with a camera, via the cervix into the womb (doesn't involve any dye). They can then see inside your womb on a screen (like when having a laparoscopy) and can also perform any surgery if needed eg removal of polyps, fibroids, uterine adhesions, correction to abormal shaped womb such as septate.

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/hysteroscopy.html

A laparoscopy is where they look directly inside the pelvic cavity...so see the outside of the womb, as well as the tubes, ovaries etc etc. They can check for adhesions, endometriosis, fibroids etc. This is where they pass a fine scope with camera through an incision in or just below the belly button (and possibly other small incisions around ovary and low pelvic/pubis area)...they can then perform micro surgery if required. They may also be able to perform surgery to tubes this way. With a laparoscopy they can also inject a dye up through your cervix and see if it spills out the ends of your tubes into the pelvic cavity...however, they wouldn't be able to see exactly where any possible obstruction was.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/examinations/laparoscopy.htm

I've not had a HyCoSy but I've had 1 HSG and 5 hysteroscopies & 5 laparoscopies !

With IVF, you bypass the tubes as there is no natural ovulation or fertilisation and the embryos put directly back inside the womb....so if there were blockages in the tubes (or removal of tubes completely) then this wouldn't necessarily make any difference to the final outcome of the IVF treatment or prevent pregnancy. Years ago (when it was first about) IVF was initially for women who had tubes removed (or were blocked).

Take care
Natasha

[red]This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/red]


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Minxy, I was reading all that and thinking "how the heck does she know all this?!" - then I read how many procedures you've had.  Damn that's a lot of podding, poking and ouchy incisions!  You've managed effortlessly to explain to me how they diagnosed my endo, nobody was telling me anything it was very frustrating at the time, I was on my own too which is never a good idea.  It went something like "yup you've had some procedures that we don't have time to tell you about, it's all bad news, you're subfertile, you're going to need IVF and the waiting list is THIS long, now we're going to put you into a pseudo menopause for reasons that we can't or don't have time to tell you why.  You've had your 10 minutesnow, bye bye!"  Horrible.


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

*julianne*....

...glad I could help  Did you not have a follow up appointment after your lap to explain everything ? I always write down lots of questions to ask but perhaps I've also been lucky in having great consultants over the years. I was diagnosed with severe endo and dense adhesions at my first laparoscopy almost 20 years ago so I've had many years to read and research it all. I had the HSG not long after the first lap/dye as both my tubes were found to be blocked but the dye from HSG pushed through the obstructions so tubes now both open but are damaged and sluggish due to adhesions/endo. Several years later I then had hysteroscopy (at same time as lap) and was found to have septate/bicornuate uterus with uterine adhesions. All this was quite a few years before I'd even started to ttc !!!!! I've since had to have more ops to remove endo, adhesions, uterine adhesions, uterine polyps and a fibroid (from outer side of my womb) plus corrective surgery to the septum in my womb....not including all the IVFs/FETs...it's a good job that needles, anaesthetics and hospitals in general don't faze me !!

Good luck & take care
Natasha x


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Natasha -

You are a godsend...thank you so much!

I see the doctor tomorrow morning so he'll decide where to take things from here, but I wonder why the X ray doctor seemed to think that the obstruction in my fallopian tube could have interfered with my IVFs as well? 

Also, is there any chance the polyp or fibroid or whatever I have could be pre cancerous or am I just being melodramatic?

XS


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

*Hi Sally*

If the blockage in your tube is fluid ie hydrosalpinx, then this fluid may be toxic as can leak into womb and cause problems with IVF and conceiving naturally (that's very basic as I'm not completely clued up about hydrosalpinx...there's a separate board under Starting out & diagnosis where you'll get more info)...but if it's a blockage of some other kind, I'm not completely sure how this would effect IVF chances...obviously this could effect conceiving naturally though. I'm obviously not medically qualified though so always best to discuss with your consultant !

As for polyp or fibroid being pre-cancerous....there's always a very very slim chance of this but to be honest, think it's highly unlikely. I've had uterine polyps removed twice and a fibroid removed from outer side of my womb once and after biopsies none of these were pre-cancerous. They are oestrogen related (just as endometriosis is) though.

Good luck at your appointment tomorrow...hope you get some answers.

Take care
Natasha


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Thanks for the info Natasha - you've made everything so much clearer

Hi Sally, Julianne, Alba 

Just popped on to say Best Wishes for 2008 for everyone!
  

love coughsweet xxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Just to say Happy New Year to you all....


I started my cycle today....Geeta has put the prices up that is,,, LFC has.  It's gone up for some £500 approx...  

All the best,

Inc


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi Incon,

Happy New Year to you too, and to everyone else.  All the very best for your treatment cycle - I really hope it goes well for you.  These price hikes are a bit of a shocker aren't they?  But in our position we unfortunately have no option but to keep coughing up    !!!


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello
 with your cycle Incon - that's come round quickly! I've still got another 2 weeks to go before starting - it seems to be taking forever now!! Anyone else cycling in January?

coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Cougshsweet - 
Only bcs my period was late for 9 days so I didn't wait for 2 cycles but only had one cycle in btw treatments...  Was handy for hols as I had tummy upset for two days (loo bound!) and then a period would have b****** my hols altogether.... Worked well hols wise... Hope the cycle is not a disaster, though...

My first scan is on Monday.... I had a cyst - but Geeta calls it a follicle which was 21 mm on my scan on day 2, so worried about this, tbh...  At the UCH they never allowed me to cycle with a cyst before and I had to wait... The ARGC always wanted any cysts aspirated but these guys totally dismissed it... Geeta was all her cheerful self and said that they are on the verge of a major breakthrough with the follicles/cysts and some new research that is to revolutionise ivf treatments, but wouldn't say anything specific.  She said they wouldn't start using their new research on me not to worry...  Hope they know what they are doing... I did feel a bit as a guinea pig when she had a new dr, herself, and  prof Campbell to have a look whilst I was scanned ... OMG I have lost all dignity with these treatments... With DH present I had 4 people examining my private bits... 

See what prof is saying on Monday.... Hope the evil cyst/follicle has disappeared....  If not will be worrying after the last disastrous cycle...

This cyst also proves that I had follicles on the right ovary and Lee was adamant that I had nothing on the right ovary   .  

The new dr is v. nice but the new nurse is crappy... Never returned my call, which I was annoyed about... a bad omen, methinks....  Her name is Erica (sounds Polish on the phone).  

Praying for a miracle me...                               

******
Forgot to tell you that you can save quite a bit of money by sourcing the drugs elsewhere.  Have just purchased 900 iu pen for £ 320 as opposed to £420 at Geeta's.  300 iu pen is £107 vs £150 and 450 iu ipen is £ 160 vs £210.  I sourced the drugs at Ali's pharmacy in Shadwell.. .  He can get all the drugs within 24 hrs. So, I saved roughly £230, which is not bad....  I am on 225 iu.  I can post the no if you are interested.  Haven't got it handy at the mo.... Met a girl from the Lister buying drugs there, so seems to be a place used by other ffers...

Geeta was quite surprised when I asked for a prescription on New Year's Eve...       There is also an inspected hike in prices in April I was told... so when this kicks in Geeta will no longer be a competitive alternative.  She would cost the same as others ...the only difference being low doses of meds which reduces the cost..

*****

Be good girls and all the best in the New Year....


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

INCONCEIVABLE said:


> ******
> Forgot to tell you that you can save quite a bit of money by sourcing the drugs elsewhere. Have just purchased 900 iu pen for £ 320 as opposed to £420 at Geeta's. 300 iu pen is £107 vs £150 and 450 iu ipen is £ 160 vs £210. I sourced the drugs at Ali's pharmacy in Shadwell.. . He can get all the drugs within 24 hrs. So, I saved roughly £230, which is not bad.... I am on 225 iu. I can post the no if you are interested. Haven't got it handy at the mo.... Met a girl from the Lister buying drugs there, so seems to be a place used by other ffers...


You will find contact numbers for several suppliers (including Ali's) on the sticky thread at top of this IVF board called "where to buy cheap drugs"...if you look on page 14 you will see I've repeated them all again...

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9821.195

Good luck
Natasha


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello Incon
good for you sourcing the drugs more cheaply. I already got mine from CH when I was going to cycle before Christmas so doesn't help for this round for me but if there's a next time...

Haven't taken DH in to any of my scanning appts yet - I think he'd be a bit freaked tbh! Hope your cyst does a vanishing act over the weekend and everyone is happy with progess. I don't know whether to be pleased or annoyed when they say about revolutionary new treatment things coming along - as I expect it to be too late to make a diff for me!! but I suppose that's a bit selfish  

Glad you had a break at Christmas anyhow

love coughsweet x 
p.s. what's this about being a good girl?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Why didn't you start in December  then?  Did you mention cysts at some point or am I being paranoid here?


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello from Los Angeles, everybody!

Incon, good luck with your cycle and well done for finding cheap drugs - very useful to know. So Lee is still there? 

As it turns out, the polyp or whatever it is they found is on my uterus, not in my fallopian tube. I'm having my hysteroscopy on Wednesday to remove it. I think the prices sound reasonable at this place - the whole thing, including what I had last week, is less than $1500, I think, though that may not include the anesthesist. 

Any words of advice before Wednesday appreciated...questions I should ask the doctor etc...?

Hello Julianne, Coughsweet, Natasha and everyone else...

XA


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Good luck for Wednesday Sally!  Have you made a decision as to where to cycle.  Lee is no longer there.


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Good luck for Wednesday Sally...I'm sure the procedure will go smoothly 

Take care
Natasha x


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks so much!!

I will let you all know how it went...how many of you have had this procedure?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

I had hysteroscopy.


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Sally2 said:


> Thanks so much!!
> 
> I will let you all know how it went...how many of you have had this procedure?


I've had 5 hysteroscopies  and had polyps removed twice...

N x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

I had one at the same time as my lap.  It was no biggie and a lot less discomfort than I was expecting.  My incision site got infected and I dealt with it and that was the only problem I experienced.

I was hoping the new staff at Create would sort out a lot of our problems.  Oh well, I guess the jury is still out.  I doubt we'll get a chance to cycle, in fact I know we won't.  We're leaving London at the end of Feb and I'll be coming back alone for a few months whilst my visa is sorted out, then we're in Auckland for good.  I'm a bit freaked out by it all, and I really wanted to do at least one cycle before I was 38 (in a few weeks) and that just isn't going to happen.  I'm a bit sad about that, psychologically that was a bit of a big deal for me, but we still have to get this andrology issue sorted out, and then I guess I'll have to look in Auckland for somebody that offers a soft cycle.  When we'll be able to do that I have no idea.  I can feel the last boat to motherhood is getting ready to leave and I just don't think I'm going to be on it


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Sally2 - I've had 3 fibroids removed via 2 separate hystos, the procedure was fine and I got minimal pain and bleeding. They usually advise you take anti-inflammatories for as long as you need to afterwards, as you are likely to feel a little crampy. How big is the polyp? Best of luck with the op.

Julianne - I know what you mean about being 38, I was 38 in October and you hear all the scare stories about fertility declining again after 37 (Geeta said the critical point was 38.5). However you only have to look on this site to see that it does happen for us oldies. So you never know!

LauraB - thanks for the info about the stats, it was interesting to see that actual rates, especially as Geeta was quite vague when we went for the consultation. I've decided to try my first tx cycle at Guys where I will be on max stimms - but may well come back to Create if it doesn't work with them. 

It was interesting to see that only the over 40s don't do downregging - as the impression Geeta gave me was that I would go straight to stimms - what's been other  people's experience? As that would save quite a lot in terms of drugs costs.


Wiggie x


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hey wiggie
just saw your post...are you already on the Guys thread? sorry theres not many of us but i still forget who is on it! i dont know how to send u a link but if you go to search n type in Guys ACU u can track down the thread = its part 2. Good luck there ive been going there since 04 i think they r great, really friendly and helpful. mite bump into u im going in this month for my follow up consult after my m/c

All the best
MAni


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hello guys, 

Just to report that my cycle has been Xled today.  Prof Campbell and Geeta made an error on my day 2 scan and said that my 21mm follicle from the previous cycle seen on day 2 wasn't a cyst but a follicle.  In fact, Geeta wasn't sure at which point she called the proff and he said it was a follicle after zooming on the thing.  Well, after 8 days of stimms all of my drugs went into this cysts - obviously as my other 4 follies didn't get anything and were around 5 mm whilst the cyst grew from 21mm on day 2 to 4 mm.  I am having a consultation with Geeta on Friday re this most recent cock-up. She told me that this was to be my last stimulated cycle as I have received so much stimulation already... We will see on that one!.

I paid my £1340 for the cycle + 225 iui x 8 days.  It's not even the money, it's the lost time and knackering my ovaries for noting.  Wherever the story of revolutionary research has gone about cysts/follicles.  I seem to have been a guinea pig after all.  Sorry for moan but feeling gutted.  Not giving up as yet, though and Geeta should do better than try and persuade me!!!    I feel gutted bcs I had the double follie count from my usual number.  

On that note, Julianne, I would say that with your follie count you have still got time.  If I recall well you had 10 follies on each ovary...  Plenty of time girl and not the time to say goodbuy to motherhood. ...

Damn it, I am angry....   .  I feel so bad that I went from clinic to clinic and always got sth wrong.  UCH wouldn't treat me but with useless iuis (x4 useless treatments), ARGC agreed to treat me but wasted 4 months on testing my hormones and then subsequently screwed my lining with clomid so a bfn in spite of having too nice embies, and now with Geeta no eggs on egg collection in spite of nice lining and good E2 levels. And the newest cock-up with misjudging a cyst for a follicle.  I didn't mince my words when I said that it's obviously a clinical error and that I would expect a full compensation.... But sod the bloody money!  It's my ovaries and my precious time.... 

I wonder why I am this unlucky with all the bloody clinics.  I did ask for help at 39 privately but the NHS kept telling me for 3 yrs that I should keep trying naturally.  Whatever is wrong with the clinics in the UK?


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh crap Incon, this is really pants.  I don't know what the matter is with them, but they all seem to have problems or unprofessional conduct somewhere along the line.  Maybe I'm better off in Auckland after all!

I've just been to the docs to see if they can do the Karotyping and hormonal assay that Rich needs before seeing the Andrologist.  We're getting very tight for time as the hormonal stuff can take a month to do the test.  I probably should have got on it earlier, but with Xmas things go nuts and everything goes by the by.  I don't know yet whether we can have them done on the NHS, apparently the doc has to check with the Practice Partners.  If they say no it will have been another giant waste of time and I'll still have to fork out £700 or whatever it was for the tests to be done privately.

This whole infertility farrago sucks.


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Incon - I am so sorry it has gone wrong this tx cycle - you have gone through so much with this   and this latest is just so unfair.
In answer to your question as to why I didn't cycle in Dec -no cysts - just needed to have polyp looked at to be sure ok to cycle plus I just got too overwhelmed with it being Christmas and all - thought Jan a better time for me. 

Julianne - keep plugging away with the tests though. I know everything takes ages and it's really annoying but all we can do is put the footwork in and hopefully one day it will pay off. Have you looked up anything about tx in Auckland?

 Sally

Hi to everyone else - Wiggie, Alba, ManiT, Minxy

Another week before AF for me. Bit nervous now. One good thing is that at this rate if I have a bit of time off for tx I may be in line to miss an inspection we are having at work    My DH is being v angry at the moment - I am sure it is about tx underneath it all. I find it difficult as I want to be the one stomping about and him taking care of me but I guess that's a bit selfish isn't it? I know we are together on this but sometimes this tx really does seem to push us apart. 


coughsweet x


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Everyone,
Incon I am so sorry to read what has happened to you. Life is so unfair!
Hi to everyone else. Now back from India and have had a lot of thinking time. I have decided to cancel my Create appointment. The James Cook Hosp which is about 25 miles away came out very well in League tables. I called them to ask if they would do a mild stimulation IVF. They only ever try to get maximum 8 eggs, which really isn't too bad, compared to my other efforts. (I am of course older and may not even get that many). I called Create to cancel yesterday and they had no record of my appointment having been made! It obviously wasn't meant to be for me! We now have a local appointment on 21st, but I am doing another bit of research into my other local clinics. I will keep you informed and hope it's OK if I check in from time to time!
Love Prija


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

OMG, what is wrong with them!!! I think you're probably wise Prija, I've kind of lost all faith in Create really, and if as Incon says they're not the cheapest option around then why put up with the dreadful service?

How are you doing Incon?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi guys, 

I am still recovering from the latest blow... Was feeling truly terrible yesterday.  

Prija I think it's not worth travelling all the way to London for the service at the Create, so I think your decision is wise...

Julianne - you may be better off doing it in New Zealand after all. If you try to do it all now you may just raise your stress levels and get crap fsh anyway...

Cougshweet - fingers crossed for you...TTC is stressful.  MY dh and I are on automatic pilot and all decision making is down to me.  No hugs of encouragement coming my way either.  Men seem to be a bit emotionally autistic.  Don't know how to explain it otherwise.  

I am having a consultation with Geeta on Friday to hear what she suggests.  Not sure whether it's worthwhile having another go with them after the latest fiasco.  I will ask for my money back, though...

I feel so gutted that in 7 attempts at ttc I only managed to have one ivf with 3 different clinics I was with, which is truly ridiculous.  Feel so emotionally exhausted and am also seriously financially challenged.  

Any suggestions as to what would you do in my shoes?


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## Louise68 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi everyone,

Incon, I'm really sorry to hear your ttx cycle was cancelled.  It sounds like you're having to cope a bit too much on your own as well - it's absolutely emotionally draining and I really feel for you.  It took me a month to get over my BFN and I haven't been through nearly as much as you.  Would you consider natural/controlled IVF as it is gentler on the ovaries?  I think from previous posts I remember you're not particularly in favour of this as a treatment, and I can see why.  I do hope Geeta comes up with something reassuring for you on Friday.

I've been finding out about the cost of having a hysteroscopy (and polypectomy) and the best I can find seems to be around £1500.  It's not the end of the world but is an expense I didn't calculate into my budget for treatment - anyway, it has to be dealt with somehow or other.  Sally, the price in the US sounds a lot more reasonable.  I hope yours goes well today...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Alba - I paid £1000 at the ARGC.  Thx for your kind words.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Just read all of your posts....

Incon, I am just so, so sorry, and also outraged on your behalf...can they at least give you your money back? (Or some of it.) What a bloody drag for you; you've really been through the mill and if anyone deserves some serious luck it's you.

And Julianne, I think you do have time as well, don't lose heart..

Thanks Wiggle and Incon and all of you for your encouraging words.

I'm just about to leave for the hysteroscopy now...my mother is driving me out there. I'm starving hungry and thirsty of course but otherwise not too nervous. I'll check in later if I'm not too out of it. (It's only 8:30 am here.)

I have to say now, reading your posts, am beginning to lose faith in Create altogether; yet I really don't want to switch to another clinic or do a US IVF (which also makes things complicated with my donor.) Can anyone say anything to support my STAYING with Create?

XS


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

How about the Lister?  They are not as expensive as the ARGC and seem to get good reviews.  You respond well so no need to be at the Create and you can still work with your donor.  

A former colleague from work has just got a bfp at the ARGC.  His wife is 43, she had 21 eggs on full stimms no doubt as the ARGC believes in getting the numbers and then choosing the quality ones. She had 3 blasts transferred and is likely to expect more than one by the sound of it.  

Also the price is up so the Create ivf is only £300 cheaper than the Lister so they have lost on the competitive front,too.  

Good luck for your hysteroscopy.  It's nothing to be scared of you will see.  

Geeta and Prof Campbell have obviously made a wrong decision.  I have posted on several boards and nobody was ever allowed to cycle with an  existing developed follicle or a cyst at any other clinic.  I will ask for a full refund as they have made a wrong clinical decision.  

I may think about going to the LIster myself and ask for low stimms approach.  They are open to suggestions for different protocols, too from what I hear and Geeta is not.  It all depends how my follow up goes.  If she doesn't agree to a full compensation I will complain to the HFEA or whoever.  I am a bit fed up with changing clinics, too as it's always v. stressful.  

I feel that I have had enough of crap and that it's about time I have some good stuff coming my way...It can't go on like this forever... Surely, one door closes and another opens at some point somehow...  

On a different note Sally - what kind of therapy is your specialism.  The lady I have started seeing is a TA analyst and so far I have only talked for about 3 sessions.  Is this normal?  Or should she offer some intervention and guide me a bit.  

Must try to go for a walkie although it's a bit late and skip rope to get some serotonin into my sad old brain....

Cheers guys .... Lots of love and hugs to you all....


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Just had the hysteroscopy. 

The procedure itself was fine but they found some unexpected scar tissue on my uterus, probably as a result of a termination I once had. I will have it removed next week (for a few thousand dollars) but Dr. Feinman thinks I should have a follow up hysteroscopy to check that it's gone in two months time...so we're getting a lot of money, especially as hysteroscopies are so much more expensive in Britain.

Feeling terribly upset and confused about what to do....whether to have the follow up hysteroscopy here or in London (travel expenses coming here will make the prices more or less equal, maybe even more here), whether to stay with Create or move onto the Lister or come back here for IVF (though the doctor here still rates my IVF chances in the UK...)

My mother is upset and angry at the toil the whole thing is taking - it doesn't help but I know where she's coming from...

Not ready to give up though (and she will help me financially with the procedure next week.)

Support and advice desperately needed...

XA


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello all

Incon - hope you make some headway getting your money back. Moving to the Lister sounds like it could be the way forward for you - interesting that the price diff is so little now. I hope you are feeling a bit less bleak now too hun  

Sally - sorry to hear things weren't so straightforward for you. However, it does sound like they are being really thorough and getting to the bottom of things. Two months won't be that far away and it gives you a bit more thinking time about clinics. I am still going with CH this cycle myself - having got this far! I think you have done v well with them so far regarding egg and embryo numbers at least but other options look good for you too. I would say for now by the sounds of it you just need to have a good rest and try and put it all out of your mind. Having a procedure like that sounds really draining - physically and emotionally  

Alba - thanks for posting the info about hysteroscopy costs here - have you booked one yet or are you waiting for NHS response still?

love to all  
coughsweet xxx


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Morning everyone (it's eight o'clock here...)

Incon, when you say you've only talked for three sessions do you mean she hasn't talked at all? (Ie is she doing the 
'blank screen' approach?) I have worked before with TA therapists and in my experience they certainly should interact somewhat (in fact these days, nobody sits in total silence except for the most traditional Freudians, of which there are few.) Remember that you have the right to choose the person you feel comfortable with (a bit like fertility clinics) so do not be cowed by the idea that she is a 'professional' and therefore ought to know...in an ideal world you might interview several therapists before finding one that's right for you. Good luck in any case.

Woke up this morning feeling just so sad and still so confused. The scarring tissue may not be the end of the world in itself but two more procedures will cost an awful lot of money (I'm booked for the first in a week's time - the follow-up will be in two months time) for which I'm dependent on my parents who are really worried and upset about the whole thing too - and maybe a little angry at me in some ways also, for putting myself and them through this. (My stepfather totally opposes it which means that to give me money my mother now has to go behind his back.)

The scarring tissue was the result of a termination two years ago and now I am full of regret about doing that (though it seemed so right at the time, for various reasons.)

And also so confused about the clinic situation...to change clinics in London means an awful lot of new hassle and paperwork for my donor who is now more or less based in Greece. (I feel I've pushed him to the limits already.) I suppose you could say that Create have done well for me in terms of producing eggs and blasts but I am angry with them for not suggesting I have these investigative procedures first - on the other hand, apart from ARGC, most British clinics don't suggest this stuff, do they? 

I am also concerned at their negligence regarding Incon. 

Maybe I will email Geeta and tell her where I'm at. If possible, I would love to try to stay at Create which would make life easier...did one of you mention that their league tables for over 40's are pretty good? 

Coughsweet, that's good advice...just wish I could find a way of relaxing!

XS


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - thx for the advice re the analyst.  For what's it's worth, I think one hysteroscopy should be enough. Even the ARGC don't do the follow up one to see whether the scarring is gone.  This may be the reason why you were not successful before.  Know the temptation of staying with the Create. I am not clear myself on that front as changing clinics is always v. stressful and that's why people often put up with things when they maybe shouldn't.  

Good that you have got support of your mum both emotionally and financially.  

Coughsweet - good luck for you cycle.  

Hope our little thread goes on as it's useful for other people to read info/feedback.  

I got a message today from a lady who cycled at Create and her story was pretty negative, so don't know what to think.


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

We are all in a pickle aren't we?  I don't know what to suggest really.  For Sally it might be more sensible to carry on with Create as her U.S doc has sorted out what could have potentially been preventing a BFP.  Like she said, she's been getting good blasts and so on up to now, so perhaps now an underlying issue is being resolved her sticking with Create makes sense.  For poor old Incon (I can't tell you how sad I feel for you) I think maybe the Lister might be the better option.  I know changing clinics is stressful, but if the service is better it might be worth the initial aggro.  Plus Incon I don't think you'll ever be able to trust them there anymore, and once the trust is gone I don't see how you can proceed.  It's such a tough call.

As for us, we've got our GP to agree to the bloods we need (yay, finally we got a break), so that's happening on Mon.  I'm also going to send Rich off for an SA next week some time, as he hasn't been ill or run a temperature and i've had him on those mega vits for a while now (he said he got a definate kick from them, he could really feel the difference.  He thinks it's the Royal Jelly that's giving that effect as it's happened before when he's taken it).  This is a good a baseline as we'll ever get, so if this sample is azoospermic I think we've got serious problems.  My gut feeling is that his count fluctuates wildly and that we could be in a semen collection scenario, which isn't ideal but it makes sense to have frozen backup sperm in case he happens to be having a 'shooting blanks' phase when we cycle    He's OK to do that, but he's totally not up for surgical retrieval - which is fair enough, it's a bit of an alarming prospect.


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Morning all

Sally   I think there are several of us with regrets over past terminations around here - it is hard but as you said it seemed for the best with the available info at the time so try not to beat yourself up about it. I am having some parental financial help too which I am having all sorts of feelings of guilt and inadequacy about in itself as well. My DH's parents are v RC religious and when he finally told them what was happening they have not shown any understanding of what we are doing. This treatment lark really brings up all sorts of crap situations and dynamics doesn't it?

Julianne - that sounds positive, thanks goodness for a GP that sees sense!

Incon -   how you doing today?

Well I had a good old weep last night and felt I had gone completely potty about everything - and then what do you know I have started spotting this morning so AF is beginning (a few days earlier than I expected)! So I have booked in at CH for next Friday, though that may turn out to be day 7 or 8 of my cycle depending on how quickly AF gets going today. So wish me luck and of course I will report back my experiences!

love coughsweet x


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## Hopeful emma (Apr 10, 2007)

Hello all,

just dipping in to say happy new year and may all your dreams come true in 2008.

I still feel raw and coming to terms with tha fact that i will not try again, but it still feels like the right decision for me.

I really just wanted to add in my tuppenceworth - if there is really only £300 between the lister and create I would say without doubt go to the Lister (except they do not do natural ivf) I had 3 tx there (one resulting in my little Earl) and although no clinic is perfect and no clinic can make our bodies do what they want all of the time, after experiencing both i would def recc the Lister. its a machine, but its a very efficent machine. When I went to Create I thought i would have a much more intimtate experince in a smaller clinic and feel much more cared for, but the opposite was true.

good luck everyone, will keeping an eye on you all.

em x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Emma 

Thx for this. 

I have just been for a consultation at Geeta's and she has admitted to no medical mismanagement in spite of Prof Campbell in his own stiff upper lip way acknowledging to making a mistake ie cyst vs follicle debate.  He  said that the big follicle/cyst was likely to have used up all the medication and Geeta was adamant that this couldn't have been the case and that it was my other follicles that wouldn't grow and it was an issue of my knackered ovaries...  I know I am on last legs, but they grew before no probs.  It's just that I didn't have many of them.  

She also said that next time she would take my fsh and if it is over 12 she won't allow me to cycle but with natural ivf.  And I have no interest in natural ivf.   She was very defensive throughout the consultation.  I was calm for some reason and questioned her for a whole hour as to why she allowed me to go ahead where the UCH never allowed me to proceed if I had the cyst even a 10mm one.  And the aRGC always insisted to aspirate any cysts.  (Also I received messages from people that they were never allowed to proceed with the cyst.  I wonder why would she have a different opinion from the rest of the UK?)

She said that there were always risks that this could happen, but she didn't warn me of the risk at the  time when she approved my cycle to go ahead.  Had she mentioned it I would have rather waited for the next cycle and taken primulat to get rid of the cyst.  She said she would defend her decision in the High Court if necessary.  She must have felt that I was challenging her professional competence and was quite excited.  More than me strangely... I was quite proud of myself for remaining calm and just asking questions as I normally don't mince my words when I feel wronged.   

In a nutshell I am not getting a refund for this cycle.  The medication has gone to waste and won't be refunded either.    I will just get the difference for not proceeding to the EC.   So approx this has wasted me about £1400.

I now wish with a hindsight that I have gone to the Lister straight after the ARGC cycle and I wouldn't have wasted 3 -4 months waiting for the appointment with Geeta and the Lister had availability.  It's just that I believed that there is no point in doing high stimms and that the low stim approach would be better.   

Is the Lister flexible with protocols ... Would they allow me a low stimmed one?

Stimulated cycle has gone up for £500 at the Create.  The prices that I was comparing to are based on what I got 3  or 4 months ago at the Lister.  I think the price for icsi still differs and we probably need an icsi, but in terms of ivf proper it would be just £300 based on last yrs prices at the LIster.  Need to recheck this now.  

As I have just been stimulated for nothing, my fsh is likely to be higher next month anyway as was the case before, so she can refuse to stimulate me anyway and I may lose more time... 

Emma as you say I expected it would be less stressful at a smaller clinic but I am feeling a bit let down.  I am not sure that I can trust Geeta again and she felt this I think and told me that if I don't trust her that I should go elsewhere but that other clinics are unlikely to treat me...

Dont' know what to do.  Will check all the prices on Wednesday and will duly report to you guys so whoever decides to switch can benefit.  

I know that many people in my shoes would have given up already but I feel I can't without having another proper go, bcs last two attempts I never got to ET and I only had one proper ivf.  

Emma - it's understanble that you are feeling like that .  I dread the time when I stop treatment.  That's why I have started counselling so I have some support to make the transition.  I am not looking forward to making any decisions...just functioning on a daily basis.  

Sorry this has turned into such a long post... Just thought some of you could learn from experience if you get a cyst and likely implications...

Am none the wiser... Do feel wronged and feel that she shouldn't have let me proceed...  It didn't cost her anything, but I was pumped with medication for 8 days for nothing making my ovaries resistant and knackering them further for no good reason...Hmmm

Cougsweet - when are you starting?  

Sally - good luck with your treatment.  

Hello to everybody else Alba, Julianne, Prija... Thanks for all your kind suggestions...


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Incon

Really sorry tohear about your news. Well done for keeping calm with Geeta, it doesn't surprise me that you got the reaction that you did. Did you know she tried to sue St Georges when she worked there, because they criticised the way she ran her ACU (which has since closed down)?. If you google her name you will see news articles detailing what happened.....

It was this, along with the fact that she never responded to our queries following our initial consultation with her, that made us decide to go elsewhere. It is a shame because as you say she is the only clinic - as far as I can tell - who are pioneering the low-stimm approach.

Have just finished my first week of down-regging with Guys, and have my initial scan booked for 24th Jan, at which point they will check for lining and cysts. They say that any cysts are aspirated before continuing with treatment - so it does seem that this is the standard clinical practice.

Good luck with your search for other clinics - be interested to know what you find out about the Lister.

Have a great w/end all

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Thx Wiggie.  good luck with Guys.  Am still in a pickle with regards to decision making.


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Maybe it's time to think about egg donors?  I also think you should leave Create in your dust - but only after making an official complaint to the practice manager.  Ask Hattie for his name, she's already done just that, with very good results.  She's generally found in the 'London Girls TTC thread'.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

It 's easier said than done - the donor thing...

Geeta refused a refund and as the practice manager works under her I don't see how he can effect it?  

Anyhow...hope you are all coping well ...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone...still in LA, procedure on Thurdsay.

Just caught up on everyone's posts and feeling really sad, especially for Emma and Incon....also feeling more confused than ever about clinics, after the way you have been treated Incon! I really don't know what to do. If I didn't have this donor issue I'd change clinics in a minute (it could be extremely difficult and time consuming to get my poor friend and donor to go through yet another donating process - hard to explain here - especially as he's more or less living abroad.) But do feel very angry at Geeta on Incon's behalf and on my own a bit too, for not insisting I do hysteroscopies or hystersalpingograms or not even recommending them...mind you, it seems that not many British cilnics do insist on those apart from ARGC (does the Lister?)

One other possiblity is to leave Create but stay with LFC who actually have my donor's sperm...on the other hand, they are more expensive and isn't it really their lab that's important for me anyway, given the good results I've had through Create's meds and so on? 

SO CONFUSED!!

Good luck Julianne and Coughsweet, and thanks so much for your encouraging words - you're absolutely right and it does no good to regret things!

XS


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

What about the general medical council?  I don't know if they cover private IVF clincs, but somebody must do.  If you have evidence of malpractice then it's worth thinking about (although when you are feeling so crap about everything that's easier said than done).  Does Geeta own the clinic or is she the clinician and somebody else owns it?  Worth investigating.

All this makes me back away from Create at a large number of miles per hour!  I wonder if they realise how damaging to their client base their shortcomings can be?  I doubt they realise that most infertile women find their way here sooner or later, and that we all share info and stories.  I know one lady on the TTC thread was alarmed by my rantings and went elsewhere.  At the time I felt a bit guilty as I was just letting of steam, but actually we've nearly all had a rotten time in some way or another with Create - and now there's no cost benefit to gritting your teeth and putting up with it why on earth would you?  The Lister gleams in the distance looking a damn sight better bet these days.  Not a good sign for the longevity of Create, but they've only got themselves to blame.


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Wow Bobbi, so great that you got a funded cycle, so few of us do    I've only heard good stuff about HH, so you'll be in good hands.  You can always switch to the Lister later if you don't get a BFP on your funded cycle.  As many of us have found out, it's good to have a backup idea - especially when Create is in the mix!!

I'm still so cross about Incon, I can't believe it really.  I know I ask this on an almost weekly basis but WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY THINKING?!


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi guys, 

I should point out that I am entitled to a partial refund.  Am still to find out how much that will be... In spite of it I have still wasted £1400 (inclusive of wasted medicine - have still got some left, which is not included in this amount and is a lot of money for a part-time teacher.)  More than I earn on a monthley basis that's for sure... Let's face it I was never going to get a full refund or a free cycle as that would amount to acknowledging a mistake on clinic's part and no clinic would ever do that unless faced into a corner such as in the case of mixed embryos or sth as serious as that...

My worry now is what to do with a cyst of 4 cm.  Seems like I have funded this cycle to get a cyst that I now have to pay for to get rid of... I will need to have it aspirated which can cost me quite a bit again, so the loss is going to be near 2k.  

It's a shame this latest thing, bcs I like Prof Campbell and I like the low stimm concept that Geeta pioneered... Hmmm....  Just a little bit more of customer service would help no end methinks...  I just wish I hadn't been stimmed if there was a sligtest risk of this happening ...  

Sally - I think you achieved good results with Create so no need to panic.  With the hysteroscopy behind you ...let's hope for a positive result.       You must have faith and you mustn't panic... Hope you are feeling ok following your procedure...

Julianne - what are you up to now?  Must be busy with organising your trip...

Hello to all the new people on the board... 

Emma - hope you are feeling ok.  You have your little boy at least, but I know it doesn't lessen the pain.  

Wish you good luck Wiggie and Bobbi....


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Inconceivable

So sorry about your horrible experience.
I don't know what to say but you might want to contact the HFEA and get some advice of what to do next regarding your compliant.

You can get the low stim cycle elsewhere I'm sure as I am doing it but aboard.  Mayfe the HFEA can advise you on clinics that do low-stims.

I just want to hug you sister , you have been let down and you didn't derserve that.  But you just pick yourself up again and don't let the create clinic get the better of you.  

I for one thing have crossed them off my to do list.

Take care honey

Odettexxxx


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## merse1 (Apr 15, 2007)

I agree with you Odette I had been thinking of them but after your treatment Inc I will be giving them a wide berth!!!! xxxx


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

My man confuses the bejesus out of me sometimes.  This is mr 'I won't be hurried' etc etc, yet when we were having a heated argument last night about my career plans in Auckland, I flat out told him that what I most wanted to be was a Mum - given the chance, and not some high flying exec career that he seemed to have planned for me.  He went on about how that all looks doubtful given the current situation, and I insisted that I wanted to try at least, and that I also wanted to look closer at adoption at some point (something I've wanted to do regardless all my adult life).  He then said "well we could maybe fit a cycle in before we go" which had me speechless.  

Here I am, knee deep in boxes, and piles of stuff everywhere, our flat in chaos - weeping with worry and grief about leaving my Mum with my Alzheimer-afflicted Dad and how much that's going to affect both of us ( can't bear the thought of leaving my Mum to cope alone with that crap).  Worrying whether I have to leave all my stuff behind because shipping it is so expensive, worrying about us running out of money over there, worrying about my visa and behing left behind, worrying that I'll hate it and want to come home anyway, worrying about how to get the place cleaned up in time for the landlord's inspection - worrying about everything basically, and THEN he says we can fit a cycle in

MEN!


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

So, Julianne, are you having a go then?  

Merse - what's your plans then?  

Odette - how are things going.  Are you cycling at the mo?  

Coughsweet - is your cycle under way?  

Sally - hope you are OK.  

I am still in a bit of a shock and denial over my latest experience, so will need to do some research 'morrow as I am off.  Need to ring the Create to see what amount I will get back. Geeta didn't want to say during the consultation so am to deal with silly administrators and some of them are v. patronising whilst using very confidently sentences like 'you was...' , which is always irritating me no end as even some of my ESOL students don't say it...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Ok Guys ... Here are some figures for you as promised. 

Stimulated ivf - the price valid until 29 th Feb - LFC prices

IVF - £1100 (lfc) +  1340 (Geeta's) = £2440
ICSI - £1600 (lfc)  + 1340 (Geeta's) = £2940

From 1st March

ivf - £1500 + £1340 Geeta's = £2840
icsi - £2256 - (this will mean that the hike is 100% from 1150, which is a shocker). + 1340 = £3596

(Geeta's prices for now £ 1340 - this is until April. )

The March increase at LFC would bring Geeta's prices at an even level with the LFC ie £1340 + 1500 vs  £2700 for ivf at LFC.  Geeta will be marginally more expensive ie.  £140.  

ICSI - £3596 - TOTAL at Geeta's including Lfc charge from March vs  to £3700 at LFC, so Create will be £104 cheaper. 

Some food for thought perhaps.  LFC obviously doesn't intend to let Geeta be more competitive than them.  

Lister:
ivf - 3150
icsi £1255

Consultation £180
US £150

From 1st March Create vs Lister.  
Difference for ivf cycle will be £310.
Difference for ICSI cycle Create vs Lister will be £799 

I just thought that I would list this as have done all the research... There is some competitive advantage to be had before 1st of March, however.   

Hope you are all well...

Cyst aspiration will cost me £500 at the cheapest and if sedation is required £800.  These are Lfc prices.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Sorry not to be in more regular touch - reliant upon my stepfather's computer, and he's mostly on it himself. I'm still in LA and I have my second hysteroscopy tomorrow. 

Thanks for that financial update, Incon....how very thorough of you. I am leaning heavily towards switching from Create to LFC -- (that way I'll have no bother with my donor and in fact it will mean even less travel hassle etc). I'd be very interested to know what you all think of this? I was always fairly impressed with the lab at LFC (for one thing, it was always pretty easy to get them on the phone, something I've heard isn't even so great at the Lister.) I'm still feeling very worried after your experience and livid on your behalf!

Julianne, what a nightmare for you (or series of nightmares!) I do  hope it all works out for you...so hard to keep hold of the big picture and a sense that everything will probably be okay in the end, somehow...

Bobbi, could luck with HH...I'm a fan of Robert Winstone who pioneered the whole thing there. 

Anyway, wish me luck for tomorrow...


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Incon

wow, great homework , 
if you had a choice between the Lister and the LFC, which one would you go for?

odette x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Forgot to find out about the extra weekend charge for the EC, which used to be £500 for Geeta's patients.  So will ring Create to check on this and duly report ...Totally forgot about this, but it would mean even less of a competitive advantage for the Create from March onwards...In fact they would then be more expensive.  

Odette - don't know... Haven't been to the Lister.  LFC is a small clinic and I felt ok there, but dh didn't 'cause he was feeling a bit suspicious about no egg situation and thought it could be the people doing it as the ARGC got my eggs fine...

I reckon the best is to have consultations at both and see if you are considering them.  My biggest regret is not having done consultation at the UCH and the Lister and the v. beginning and then picking the winner so to speak.  

Sally - hope you are ok?  What's happening tomorrow?  

Julianne - hope you are ok.  

Coughsweet - you have gone v. guiet...



What's your plans now with the cysts?  Did you see my message at the poor responder's thread?


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Tomorrow is my second hysteroscopy - (he didn't have the equipment to remove the scarring tissue first time round.) He's also suggested a follow-up in two months time to make sure it's all gone. 

I just hope they don't find any other nasty surprises like they did last time!

I have this very wisecracking doctor - keeps saying 'can't believe a nice girl like you is still single'  (makes me feel slightly odd) like something out of another era. 

Nil by mouth from midnight tonight. Will check in tomorrow if I'm not too out of it. 

XS


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

> I reckon the best is to have consultations at both and see if you are considering them. My biggest regret is not having done consultation at the UCH and the Lister and the v. beginning and then picking the winner so to speak.


I feel this way too. I should have gone to more open evenings and got a feel for them all. It's difficult to know what to do in the beginning isn't it? I was waiting for another open day at Create, but they aren't regular with them and haven't had one for ages. On paper Create was my first choice as I really want the soft stim approach, so I gave in and made the initial consulation without having walked through the door. In retrospect I wouldn't have done that. I'd have gone to each potential clinic and asked them about the soft protocols. Even if they don't mention soft stim on the websites, doesn't mean they won't do it - but I didn't know that at the time. I think Geeta is the only one doing completely natural cycles though.

I don't know if we'll try to cycle before we go. I suspect it will be too stressful. I'm also very wobbly at the idea of going to Create for anything, and we certainly can't afford or face starting anew in London at this stage. I think it will have to wait for Auckland, although what will happen if we can't get the soft stim approach there I just don't know. I can't afford to have my endo go crazy with the full-on stim, and my gut feeling tells me it's really bad for you and it's just not something I want.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Julianne - surely you should be able to ask to get less drugs but you may still need to pay the price of a fully stimmed cycle in terms of ivf/icsi.  

You must be v. busy with packing and organising the move so perhaps not a good idea to add the stress of cycling on top of it...  You need to be as relaxed as possible...

Hope the rest of the team NIVF is ok .... Nobody posts these days... 

I have just left a message with Rachel at the Create trying to see what is to be done with my cyst now?  Left the message the other day, too but no joy...  .  Rachel was v. cagey on the phone.  I have a feeling that they don't want anything to do with me anymore, not even to help me get rid of the cyst that I got after being pumped up with drugs for nothing.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone...back in London finally and just checking in. Had my second hysteroscopy last week and was pretty wrecked afterwards (second general anasthetic in a week.) The doctor seemed to think it went well though the scarring tissue was thicker than he'd originally thought. He insists that I should have a third hysteroscopy in March to make sure the scarring hasn't come back, though another doctor (that one who combines eastern and western approaches whom I was seeing last year) says that a saline infusion ultrasound will produce the same diagnostic results at much less of a cost. Does anyone know about this?

Does anyone know of where I can get a hysteroscopy to begin with here?

Also thinking that maybe I should stay with Create after all, given the results I had on the egg and embryo side with them, though still upset on behalf of Incon and others...

I'm feeling pretty battered generally. Just turned 43 as well and just wondering whether to give up altogether. Never thought my life would end up like this at this age, with no semblance of a family of my own! (Excuse this bout of self-pity - I'm sure the jet lag doesn't help.)

How is everyone else doing?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sounds like too many hysteroscopies to me in such a short space of time...  .  The aRGC does hysteroscopy for £1000 which is one of the more competitive prices.  I didn't feel a thing...

I think it's not time to give up yet as you produce a fab crop of eggs... From March Geeta won't be any cheaper than LFC so you have got a choice and you should probably stay/go where you feel comfortable.
I have checked the LFC will do a low stimm approach, too.  

I would be delighted with your kind of nos and wouldn't give up... There is some interesting anecdotal evidence re low stimm approach and egg quality and with your nos I think you should get great results...

Google  Kiwichick story ... there are pics provided re embryo quality, too and she was a poor responder on top..., which you are not...

Good to see the thread going again...

Julianne - dr Kelly Simon of Fertility Associates in Auckland, N. Zealand do mid/low stimm approach + natural ivf.  Thought it may be of interest...

Coughsweet - what 's happening with you..?  

Alba - you still with the Create?  

Anybody else?  

Hope you are all well...  My decision will depend on my next scan.. If there is anything dodgy ie the fluid that I had on my recent scan, I am not cycling and will be switching ...My scan on Friday was a bit  inconclusive ie in terms of what happened with the cyst which has shrunk to 12.5 mm, but I also had another two follies/folicular structures that Geeta wouldn't say what they were and 2 other follies which she said were antrals...  So I was left a bit confused and without a proper explanation... Also have fluid in Pod and Geeta made a note taht if it doesn't disappear I need to test for CA125, which is for cancer.  I had this last year after the cyst so not worried on that account.  

All the best guys...


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi girls,

Just a quick question.. Is anyone actually doing nat IVF or you all doing min stim IVF?  Just for cost reasons Im thinking nat IVF maybe a better option as only produced 2 eggs last cycle  so on egg/ per thousand pounds nat is a better option I think.

Has it worked for anyone??

Thanks

XX


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Laura - most success stories are with mild ivf... The hope is that you would produce 2 eggs and then it works out cheaper... Nat cycles are risky... ie you may ovulate too early, the egg can get stuck to the follicle wall, they may fail to get the egg and so on...The price of nat ivf has also gone up... Don't know the exact figures but you can give them a buzz and check....  They don't really have natural, natural cycles,,, bcs even the nat cycles are controlled ie from day 8 I think you start getting 150 gonal f + cetrotide so that they  can control your ovulation...  This is called modified natural cycle... 

Kiwichich story is on high fsh forum... you shouldn't go for naughty sites...Ok...


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello everyone  

sorry have been quiet - was off if own world for a bit! Just a quick catch up. I got 5 eggs at EC all of which fertilised and I had the best 2 put back yesterday - day 3. Found ET really uncomfortable but mostly because my bladder was too full and I really thought I might lose control!! Found the mild stim drug regime fine really - once I had got over my fear of doing the first injections. Haven't had any problems with Create during it - really seems to have gone pretty smoothly. 
So am now officially on the dreaded 2ww........which is looking very long indeed! 
Can anyone tell me though - does having IVF/ICSI tend to make your cycle longer anyway? 

Hope you are recovering Sally - two generals in week    I am surprised you are not just snoozing the whole time. 

Hello Incon - I do hope things get clearer for you soon  

Hello Julianne, Odette, Laura 

thanks
coughsweet x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Hi guys, well done Coughsweet, you kept that lot quiet!  Fingers crossed that we'll finally get our first (and long overdue) BFP on this thread.  Bring it on!!

Thanks for doing that research Incon, that was so nice of you I'm a bit choked up.  I'm finding everything a bit much at the moment and the old emotional and tear tanks are nearly always on 'overflow alert'.  I'm finding the move and doing the visa thing very difficult.  Yesterday I had to charity shop just about everything I salvaged from my house with the ex.  I thought it would OK as I haven't seen any of it for a couple of years, it's been up in Mum's loft.  But it's a big of a different story when you unpack everything and realise what beautiful stuff you have......

Plus we're stony broke and I have no idea how we're going to pay for the container to NZ, let alone Andrologist fees.  I'm dead broody too which doesn't help.  I can usually get that under control, but having just turned 38 has done something to my head and I can't defer it as easily as I used to.  I sat in the doctors last night and there was a couple with the most adorable newborn next to me and I just wanted one, pure and simple - except it isn't for us is it?  It also doesn't help that the buggy and baby stuff from when Richard had his daughter here is lined up down the hall and looking.....empty.

I think I'm a bit psycho at the moment!


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Coughsweet - well done for producing 5 eggs, 5 embies... Amazing stuff. You hopefully had some to freeze, too.  We are,as Julianne says, overdue a bfp on this thread....   .

Sally - hope the jet lag has worn off and you are now feeling better....  .

Julianne - it's normal to feel like that.... 38 is nothing with your reserve... Come on girl.  I would die for that no of antrals.  Also a colleague's wife has just got pregnant at 43 having produced 21 eggs ... That's sounds a bit like your kind of potential... So, plenty of time girl....  Good luck with getting ready to move to a lovely new place with a nice climate, which is all going to help with baby-making....  You may have a natural surprise,too...  

Lots of love and hugs to all...


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Heya ladies, I've got my head straight again.  Thanks for the pep talk Incon  

Well Rich went for his second SA test at HCA yesterday, so we'll see if the new vits are doing any good.  If he needs to do more tests he's never going back there.  Even on a good day it's a dire little place to do the business, but yesterday he said it stank real bad of sewers.  They had fans going everywhere, so they knew they had a problem, but I told him he should have walked out of there and we'd find somewhere else.  He very nearly didn't 'make it' because it was so gross, but he just wanted to get it done and out the way.  I am now mentally preparing myself for the struggle to get the results out of Create (grrr)

How's everything people?

Ed:  damn it all to hell!  I've just heard from our GP, the lab are refusing to process Rich's bloodwork unless we pay them private rates!!! Bang goes another £350.....


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hope you get good results Julianne... Fingers crossed...

Cougshweet - when are you testing?  

How is everybody else?


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

Julianne - your poor DH - that sounds horrid, as if there's not enough pressure on already! Don't understand why your GP is so harsh either  

Hello Incon  

quick update. 
Sadly no embies good enough to freeze.
2ww is really torture now! Am finding cyclogest is making me really constipated and bloated. Kept having to get up and walk around at work yesterday as was too uncomfortable sitting down. TBH am not feeling v positive. I feel like my AF is just being kept at bay by the pills as I keep having pains.
Still, testing on Saturday so will know for sure then.

love coughsweet x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Coughsweet - fingers crossed for you....    >  Good on you for not being tempted to test..... Clear blue gives pretty accurate results up to 4 days early...  Hoping for the best for you....  . Would be lovely if we had at least one bfp on the thread.....


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Don't test early!  It'll screw up your head, I've seen it so many times on this board.  Try to hold out and not reach for the pee sticks


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

The latest... I had my scan yesterdday 1 x follicle of 8mm -( possibly cyst  - a bit of debate with Geeta here!)
and a few other follicles but all ranging between 3 & 5 mm.  

Now I need to make a decision whether to cycle this month.  Think not...    I have looked into the notes of my other cycles and I never had follicles of 8 mm before day 6 or 7.  So I worry that this is a small cyst again.  

When I questioned Geeta about this and my worry that the cycle may be abandoned again if this is a cyst, she said I need to get counselling for stress and that in fact she won't let me cycle unless I give her a psychiatric report that I am fit to cycle...

She was really agitated only bcs I naturally was apprehensive of proceeding as this follie just looks too big for day 1 of period.  Prof Campbell got involved at this point and said that there was no need for a psyhicatric assessment but that  I have to trust them.  He also mentioned a natural controlled cycle, which tells me taht if this is a dominant follie and not a cyst that it may suck up all the medication and I end up with one folly anyway...

I felt a bit bullied frankly with the talk of psychiatric assessment and felt that  it was an emotional blackmail...  Remained polite and said I want to think about it.  

Seems a bit masochistic to go back... so I am not starting with stimms tonight...

Hope you are all well... 

Coughsweet - wish you all the best of luck... Was your test today?    

Julianne - what's happening my dear.... YOu've gone all queit....

Sally - when are you cycling again?


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi 

I havent been on here for ages but i just read ur post Incon and i had to reply....how awful she was to you! OMG it sounds as if she is the stress causer and how rude/thoughtless of her to speak to you like that. Im sorry if i sound strong but i feel so indignant for you. I really hope they didnt upset you too much hun   

i hope you r alright and i think you are right to take your time to make a decision. Take care

ManiT


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Thanks Mani

What have you been up to?  Where are you cycling?


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## coughsweet (Nov 21, 2006)

Hello

Well, I finally reached test day and it's a   !!!

Am having difficulties actually believing it at the moment. Feel like going to Boots and clearing the shelves of pee sticks. Have had really bad AF pains this week. We are thrilled though   Have been up since about 3am and feel like a loon!!

Incon - sounds like you are doing the right thing not cycling this month  

Hello Julianne, Laura, Sally, Odette x

love coughsweet x


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi everyone

Congrats coughsweet - such wondeful news!!!!!  So pleased for you!

Incon I hope you are Ok, any decisions yet?  

Im at Guys but we are going to wait til Aug now, i had planned on April but DH says as we are moving out due to building work it istoo stressful n he wants to wait, i was really upset BUT. seeing as i have had a call re my thyroid levels being way too high (over medicated) my IVF doc says its a good idea to wait anyway..bl...dy diabetes doc messed up didnt test me for 2 years! Anyway maybe its a blessing in disguise i can carry on withthe weight loss. 

speak soon
Mani


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

OH  COUGHSWEET THAT IS SUCH WONDERFUL NEWS!!!!!!!

I am so happy for you. It's funny, because you'd have thought I'd have been bitterly jealous, but apart from the fact that of course I wish I was joining you, I felt genuinely ecstatic when I saw your BFP thing. It gives hope to the rest of of us. I've been offsite for a couple of weeks (been away again as well) but what a lovely thing to come back to!! Just so pleased for you, just let out a scream of joy when I saw it.

Incon, what a head____ (can't say the word here or else be censored by the monitors again) for you. The idea of demanding a psychiatric assessment after all you've been through! (And I agree that Geeta sounds far more the cause of the stress than anything else.) So is that it for you and Create?

Hang in there Julianne...totally relate to you about money worries, as if this isn't stressful enough..

I've just finished taking a whole lot of estrogen and progesterone that Dr. Feinman prescribed me to strengthen my uterus and hopefully guard against scar tissue returning. I've put on some weight and I don't think it's just from eating...has anything else gained weight from estrogen?

The idea is that I'll have another hysteroscopy in March and then hopefully do another IVF (if I can afford it) in April. 

Nice to be back on the thread again...have been feeling a bit disconnected. 

Tomorrow I have my SMS lunch ("Single Mothers Soon") a group I've organized for single women who are doing IVF's etc, so should get some support there....a couple of them are pregnant now with donor eggs.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Coughsweet - fantastic news for you.... fingers crossed the levels now keep doubling....      Great news to have a bfp on the thread....

Sally - sounds like a good decision to have done a hysto... and to sort out the scarring and strengthen the uterus....   

Mani - good luck for your cycle...   

I am a bit tired so don't feel like making any decisions as yet.... Need to take care of myself and dh now and recuperate....


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi 

Incon take care of yourself heres some positive energy to help u thru                 

and for the nasty doc  there was me thinking she sounded ok when i read an article about her fighting the cause for women's health but ive read quite a lot of neg stuff about her TBH Im glad i didnt go to create now, they have no right to make women feel upset as if this all isnt enough of a rollercoaster already. 
Mani


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi all

Coughsweet - fantastic news on your BFP!!!  I have been reading your 2ww diary with interest (it made me laugh!), I can relate to it all as I am due to start my 2ww from today, and am sure will go through similar anxieties!

Incon - good for you for remaining cool and calm with Geeta, even though you must have been seething inside. It's a shame that she doesn't do herself any favours - I get the feeling she puts herself herself before the interests of her patients/clients.

Sally - I found I put on half a stone during my stimms phase (I think this was due to the oestrogen) as I found I was hungry all the time. However my appetite returned back to normal as soon as I'd had the EC.

ManiT - great that you now have a plan, and it makes sense for Guys to take on the diabetes side of things as well.

Hello to everyone else

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Guys - i am agonising whether i have made a good decision...  still day 3...  so in theory may not be too late...  I just wish to get this done and over with....


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh coughsweet!   Congrats honey!!    

Inc - No don't cycle. Cycle when you knowits a good month, you can cycle next month if you want but there was doubts over this cycle and do you really want to put yourself through what you went through last month?  Be patient my lovely.


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Yes, sounds like the right decision for you not to cycle now, Incon...not just physically, but it all feels too loaded with the recent Create Trauma. How are you feeling generally? You've certainly been through an awful lot.

And yes I'm glad I've done the hysteroscopies, though due to do another one in March to make sure the tissue hasn't grown back. 

Thanks for that, Wiggle...I don't think my weight gain is just an appetite thing though; I think the estrogen itself has done that. Now I'm expecting a period today and it hadn't come (no, there's NO chance of...) Wonder if my body's pretty confused by things...

ManiT excuse my ignorance, but is there a link between your diabetes and thyroid levels?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

I am feeling exhausted... I just want a closure and to move on with my life as can't take this anymore...
Not making much progress with therapy either... My friend who is a psychologist thinks that the lady I am seeing is not for me...Can't be bothered to change both the clinic and the therapist... too many changes... I just feel so stuck in limbo and indecision... She just lets me chat ...and it's like being here on the forum...  

I know it feels loaded, but waiting yet another month feels like dying a little death...  

Sally - You sound well rested and positive and am sure that we are looking at another bfp at this thread... I wish I could relax a bit...but feeling v. tense, which i know is countra productive...

Other people in my position would have probably moved on by now but I can't...or won't ..not sure which...


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Oh Incon, I don't know what to say to make you feel better.  I don't think I can, but I do have an opinion about what's happening and that's not to walk through Create's doors ever again.  It's not the clinic for you, and now they're bullying you.  Take a month off and investigate the Lister.  I know it's a mind-f---, but it can't be worse than what that total shower are doing to you.

As usual, we haven't heard re Richard's SA, despite me emailing ahead to warn them to expect the results coming through.  They are so fricking useless!  

However, we do have our first BFP and I'm so pleased for you Coughsweet!   

Let's hope that Coughsweet has turned the tide and that this is the first of many to come.  It happened on the NOA Male Factor thread, there's so many preggers over there it makes your head spin.

Love to you all, j x


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## mrs shaw (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi girls,
I haven't been on here since i last did a natural FET last year. I have a dilemma, i soon will be 39 next month, and i am unsure in what to do next. I have 3 frozen embryos left, i have used 6 so far with no luck.
I suffered severe OHSS in 2006 and with having it so bad i really don't wish to repeat having my ovaries stimulated. I am now deciding whether to do a natural FET or do a natural IVF. I worry my age will soon be against me so feel i should try my natural eggs sooner rather than later, i am waiting for a consultant to phone me from my clinic to discuss it but i do know it is ultimately my decision. I feel quite alone at the moment, cant seem to feel positive about my future fertility. Kind of think my last ectopic has had a bigger impact on me than i think for.
Thanks for listening. 
Mrs Shaw xxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Go for the mildly stimulated cycle....


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

I agree with Incon.  If you can find a competent clinic (grrrr) it seems to be the best all-round solution for us old gals.


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Well I've got Rich's SA results and at least it's not azoospermatic.  It notes occasional sperm with poor motility.  I'm not sure whether that means there's enough for an ICSI collection, but some is better than none - even if they can't swim!


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi everyone

Julianne the docs always say 1 sperm is all it takes!! Good news then!

ManiT


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone, just wanted to check in; I've been pretty frantic.

Julianne, that's good news, isn't it? Will you do ICSI?

How are you doing, Incon? I'm not surprised you're feeling absolutely battered!!

Mrs Shaw, I'm not an expert but agree with Incon here...mildly stimulated could be the way for you to go. Unless that's what you did last time? 

Some headway with my hysteroscopy...will probably do it with Viveka, a clinic in St. John's Wood; their doctor, Mehudi Gordon, is supposed to be excellent. It should cost around £1500 (as opposed to LFC, who charge £2800!!!) I have an appointment in a few days with my GP to see if there's some remote chance I can get the NHS to pay for it, but that seems unlikely. Anyone have any info on this?

I am trying to keep the morale up, getting on with other aspects of my life and trying to just motor on generally, but at the back of my mind is always this terror that if the scar tissue grows back, that will really be curtains for me....even for egg donation. And as it was the result of a termination (probably) I also find it hard to shake the feeling that I've brought it on myself....I've just turned 43 and I cling to the hope that my youthful ovaries will see me through, but just so frightened as to what this next hysteroscopy will reveal...

Sorry to maudlin but it's nice to vent it with people who understand.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - I have heard of the ST John's clinic...and of the dr... All good stuff...  The ARGC charge £1000 ... I think I mentioned it before, so even with the consultation of £150 ..it's a little bit cheaper but not significantly.  LFC charges an outrageous amount... Also for GIFT I think it's £8000 which is really ridiculous... 

I envy you on your need v. youthful ovaries... If I could have just one of yours I would be v. happy....
Fingers crossed...

Would you ever consider egg donation ?  

As you said ..I do feel a bit battered...  Trying to organise some nice things over half term to recuperate a bit... Have just been for a walk along the Thames and it was nice... I keep thinking taht there must be a way out of this hell hole and life can't be pants all the time.... I feel similarly about the self-inflicted damage ie. postponing having kids in my case as ovaries are not as youthful as yours...  

I had a termination years ago, but Taranissi didn't find any scarring... Interesting...

Fingers crossed for you... ARe you cycling with Geeta?  As you know prices are now the same with the LFC from 1st March... Also I have been for a consultation at the LFC and they are willing to tailor protocols to what you like.  They more or less agreed to everything that I asked for...DH now has doubts whether we should carry on as finances are seriously challenged.  He is getting really dispondent...

Just as a matter of interest is TA analysis meant to be client or therapist led? I seem to be doing a lot of talking and not getting much feedback apart from sympathetic nods and her saying ...oh I am so very sorry... bla , bla....  Have a feeling that I am not progressing, but maybe it's not possbile under the circumstances?  

Keep posting... I would love to hear of another bfp on the thread... 

How is everybody else?  

Julianne - have you packed and ready to go?  

Coughsweet - hope the levels are doubling up nicely...

Who else is ont the thread?? Forget now... HaS everybody deserted?


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Packing.....arrrghhh....


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hi everyone...

And thanks Incon, as usual you've given me a lot to think about. I had considered switching fulltime to LFC but recently met a woman who has been with them for a while and is extremely unhappy with them....also, they screwed me a bit when they failed to tell me that they used all of my donor's sperm the first time round (most clinics don't use all four vials!!) so I  had to fly the poor guy back from Greece at the very last minute to donate again and sperm quality wasn't as good as a result...(without the four day abstinence warning.) I guess every clinic has its pitfalls...tempted to stay with Create because they know my history so well and everything. Also, Geeta said I could get a slightly reduced rate as I've done two stimulated cycles already; not sure just how reduced...now I'm annoyed because Geeta's taking ages to get back to my last email. 

Regarding TA....to my knowledge, the TA therapist doesn't have any such rules about how interventionist he/she is or not. I think the theoretical orientation of the therapist is a lot less important than how you get on with them - your unique relationship - so if you're not happy with your therapist you should move on, though it may be useful to challenge them first; as a therapist I really appreciate when a client challenges me and sometimes it can really deepen the work. But no, if you're not feeling challenged by your therapist, do move on! You of all people should have a lot of support right now!!

I would consider egg donation but if this scar tissue does grow back, Dr. Feinman says that even that won't implant. I rang ARGC and they weren't sure they can do hysteroscopies unless you are doing other treatment with them, but I think I'll stay with Yehudi Gordon anyway...I keep  hearing good things about him.

But listen everyone...spent yesterday evening with a friend of mine who is 42 and, after 5 unsuccessful IVF's, now has a beautiful eight week baby girl! Keep your eye on the prize, you just have to believe you'll get there somehow...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Thx for the input re TA and therapist Sally... What's your orientation ie what sort of psychotherapy do you do?  Does your training help you deal with the stress of IF?  Just wandered...
I was hoping to clear my head and somehow find a positive way forward... I had this vague feeling on my last session that I just talked without really getting any input from her... I didn't feel challenged.  My psychologist friend told me taht I am moaning a lot and that I should start solving my probs. I guess she wanted to kickstart me into action... Maybe just the timing of her comment wasn't the best as I am in a barely functioning mode... 

My dh wasn't impressed with the lfc consultation at all... The dr was very confused and just wanted to fill in the forms and I wanted to hear his opinion.  We were both having hopes until the latest fiasco with the cyst.  And then the whole business about the psychiatric report finished us  off... I almost wished I cycled and got it done and over with.

Deep down I wander whether we are finished really, it's a matter whether we do another cycle for closure as we never had a proper chance with ttc ...IUIs were useless, the ARGC ruined my lining with clomid and then no eggs at the lfc and then the cyst thing... 

DH extremely negative and stressed...  I think just wants to hide under the duvet... We have been in treatment for 20 months and did sth every month either cycling or taking fsh tests and we both feel battered and exhausted...Yet I dutifully swallow my vits and dhea...And have done a yoga class tonight..

Sally wanted to say that the LIster is about £700 more expensive now compared to Geeta and lfc.  They do have v. good results.  As Emma said at one point they sound v. efficient.  If I had your kind of ovaries, I reckon I would take a chance with them.  I know it's complicated with the donor sperm.. And apparently one of the consultants in particular Yaya Prakesh is extremely nice and responds to emails within 24 hrs.  Interesting that Geeta offered you a discount.  I just seem to get crap from her..Don't know why....Maybe bcs I have zero chances so she wanted to get rid of me..  Perhaps it's good to have them as a back up plan... maybe... I hope you don't need it though...

I really hope that your scarring goes... Gordon sounds like a good choice.  It's amazing that Geeta didn't suggest any investigations.  Good that you took things into your own hands.. Makes me wander whether you would have avoided the two negative cycles had you done the  hysto to start with...


Julianne - hope the packing is progressing well... HOw is your dh.  Is he still ok with cycling?  How are you feeling?  Hope all is going to plan... Do let us know how things are...I hope Rich is taking his vits and is a good boy...

Coughsweet - how are things ?


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

God, what a time you've had Incon, and I'm sure your friends' comment didn't help at all. If I were you I would find another therapist, someone who can both support and challenge you. 

I am an integrative therapist, which means that I incorporate elements of different theories and am just as interested in the here and now as in the past and childhood. That's a very crude way of putting it but it's hard to give it the depth it deserves here. If I were you though, as I said before, I'd worry less about the orientation of the therapist than what your relationship is like. It's worth interviewing several therapists until you find one just right for you. Have you tried Spectrum in Finsbury Park? I think they have some very good humanstic therapists there, though again, not every therapist is right for every person and so you really need to find the person best suited to yourself.

As to whether it helps me with all of this to be a therapist; I suppose in a way it does, because always seeing clients keeps me from getting too self-absorbed - we're all suffering in some way. I'm a writer as well as a therapist, and that also is quite cathartic, especially as I'm writing about this at the moment.

Geeta didn't think I needed a hysteroscopy because I was so recently pregnant. (To be fair, it seems a lot of British clinics don't suggest hysteros under these circumstances: I was with LWC last year and it didn't occur to them either.) If I could start it all over again I probably would go with the Lister but I think that going through all the paperwork and donations and everything with my donor will just be too much for him, especially as he isn't living in Britain most of the time now...he'd probably walk away from the whole project (if I were him, I would have walked away months ago!) As it happens, even finding a new date for him to donate again to LFC is proving to be a real ordeal...

Dr. Feinman thinks I should stay with Geeta because she did get very good ovarian results for me, and she knows my history now. I don't think I really have much of a choice, unless I go fulltime with LFC and I haven't really heard great things about Professor Craft et al, though I do like the lads in the lab who I get to use already. 

How is everyone else doing?

XS


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

SAlly - I live in SE London.  Do you know any therapist you could recommend down here?  Great that you do the writing... Anything that we can read?  

Interesting comments about LFC.  

Let's hope your scarring doesn't come back.... 

I have been doing a lot of thinking, too...  I wish I had started off at the Lister to start with, done 3 cycles and it would have been far less painful than all this palavar of changing clinics and getting nowhere... Shame...bcs I contacted them today and they had my details from 2 yrs ago when I first contacted them but didn't follow it up... One of those things in life...

I hope I will be able to move forward some time soon...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Hi there ,

Geeta is the only one doing the natural cycle in London.  I would recommend a mildly stimulated cycle i.e. 150 gonal f + maybe some lh ie 75 menopur or just gonal f rather than totally natural as chances are taht much better.  LFC also does them.  They have got a special deal at themo of £2880 for people under 35 who have fsh below 8 and have had less tahn 3 ivfs. 

Geeta's prices for mildly stimulated cycles are now the same as the LFC prices for a proper ivf.  

Hope this helps.


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

edenbliss

my mildly stimulated cycle was 75 units of gonul f and 75 units of menpor
It also depends on past history.

I only ever produced 1-2 follicles on high doses so they was no need to overwork my ovairies hence the low dosage this time and producing the same result but hopefully better egg quality.

odette x


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## julianne (Sep 10, 2006)

Eden, Gita will do a fully natural cycle, and with your history of reaction to the drugs it's probably smart.  Just be aware that the success rate isn't that high on the no-stim cycle.  Most of us go 'soft' cycle, so we have a bit of help with a few more eggies, but no down regging.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Eden - you can ask to have just 75 gonal f and hopefully produce 5-6 good quality eggs as you react well to drugs...

As Julianne says stats for controlled natural cycles, which is what Geeta pushes are not good.  

all the best, 

inc


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Geeta is the clinic 's director.


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Don't know about King's ... I think Geeta works there for the NHS and in spare time she runs Create health with Prof CAmpbell.  She may as well be offering natural cycles there... She is not available often as a result and the place is a bit disorganised.  It may even be cheaper...  I must say I have had a pretty crappy experience with Geeta and wasn't treated well... 

LFC - is the clinic which Create uses for their egg collections.  You can, however, register with them as opposed to with the Create and I have already told you the prices, conditions and etc...You would qualify for their special deal, which would be cheaper than Geeta's..  If you scroll back a few pages I listed detailed prices of all the mentioned clinics and compared them.  It's a small clinic with the same cosy feel as the Create...

Lister is a separate clinic and is based in Chelsea and has v. good stats.  It's a big clinic with a good lab and v. good stats.  The cost of cylce is £3200 for ivf and £1200 for icsi + drugs, which you wouldn't need many of.  I am sure they would tailor the meds for ur particular history... They seem to have v. good reviews...


Hope this helps... I think you have got v. good chance... I wouldn't recommend the totally natural cycle as anything can happen to just one follie.  They push a controlled natural cycle and with this you still take 150 gonal f from day 8.  It doesn't seem to be much difference whether you take stimms from day 3 or 8 if you get a good few more eggs and therefore much better chances of conception.  
good luck with your decision making....

Welcome to the thread by the way...

Hope the rest of the crew is doing well....

I am figting the feeling of doom and gloom... On a more positive note am going ice skating with my former driving instructor...


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Don't know the price of natural cycles as I never believed in them frankly and didn't want to them.  YOu will have to find out about that.  

The prices I mentioned are for mildly stimmed cycles.    Natural cycle used to be £1300, but must be a lot more now as LFC has put the prices up and Geeta subcontracts them for egg collections. Their services for Geeta's patients went nearly 100% up since December for mildly stimmed cycles.  Not sure how much they would be for natural cycles, you better give them a call...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Sorry I haven't on for awhile...

Welcome Edenbliss and allow me to echo what everyone else has been saying re. the natural cycle; I've yet to hear of a success from natural IVF so I would go for low-stim. There are virtually no side effects (or I didn't have any) and it will improve your chances.

Incon, I'm trying to think of therapists in SE London; it's not my neck of the woods but I'll ask some colleagues.

Feeling frustrated with Geeta, (surprise surprise) because I've written her a number of emails over the past few weeks regarding my next hysteroscopy and my next IVF and she hasn't replied at all!! I've also left messages with Rachel at the desk who seems confused that she hasn't replied, saying they are no more busy than usual. I also wish I was at the Lister now but it's just too difficult with my donor situation...basically I would lose him if I had to go through all that rigmarole again, and even if I didn't, I don't have time to quarantine his sperm etc. 

Tempted again to go with LFC fulltime but not hearing great reports about them either so far as getting back to their patients... Sorry to be back to this old chestnut again but my American doctor does think I should stay with Create given the results they got for me before...

Anyway, tomorrow I am going to talk to Yehudi Gordon at Viveka clinic about having a hysteroscopy with him. Feeling very nervous in case this reveals that the scar tissue has grown back...it's pretty much curtains for me if that's the case, even for donor eggs!

Anyone have any advice as to questions I should ask him....?

How's everyone else? How are you feeling Incon?


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

Hello.  I have been reading this thread over the past couple of months and thank you all for the very useful information I have learnt from it.  I really really hope that all posting here have a positive outcome to their journeys.  It certainly is not an easy road esp when you feel the world is divided along IF lines

I was diagnosed with endo and blocked tubes in December and have decided to have mild/soft IVF at Create because I would rather not have the downregulating phase of standard ivf, which my PCT have already planned for me in the 'one size fits all' approach.  I am 35 and believe that as long as no other problem emerges, I have just as good a chance with this less invasive method.  

I have taken on board the various issues about admin and support raised by some of you and can only thank you again for the word to the wise. I will be watching but as nowhere else seems as committed to this approach, i am taking the plunge...

Despite my feelings after the diagnosis, I now recognise that I am probably lucky in the infertility sphere in that I know what the problem is, and there is a solution.

What I wanted to ask from anyone who might know today is a) my first scan is this week - without wishing to sound too stupid - is it an internal scan or do they scan the ovaries from outside (probably wishful thinking here !)

b) does anyone know what the facilities at LFC are for men providing a sample on the day of EC?  my dh is traumatised by his trip to HCA today, i would like to reassure him that that is as bad as it will get.  I feel quite cross on his behalf - he was not expecting to have to do it in a grotty toilet...

thanks


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Juicy

Great to hear from you and welcome to the board! I think Geeta uses a different type of scanner to most clinics, that also monitors blood flow etc -  but still done trans-vaginally I think? - but others can confirm that. TV scans generally gives a better view  of the ovaries, uterus, womb lining etc

Just to say I have moderate endo and felt really good on the down regging at Guys (as it's the same drug used to help control endo!). It was the stimulation phase that was harder going and after my BFN I am still feeling the effects on my endo - as the oestrogen from the drugs make it thicken and develop further. However if you are going for soft stimms you should have less (if any) symptoms.

DOn't know about other facilities at the LFC - but my DH also had a strange experience at HCA when he took his sample in for testing, as he was automatically shown the toilet even though he had it with him!

Good luck with everything

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Juicy - lfc does a low stimm approach if you meet certain criteria fsh wise.  It has to be around 8.  It is £2880, which is cheaper than at Geeta's since the latest price hike.  The egg collections are done at the lfc anyway...

wiggie is right about the scanner,  it seems to be the only clinic that measures the blood flow to the uterus.  I would go for the consul.

Sally - have you asked your donor about hte Lister?  I had fairly good response from the LFC so far.  I hope your hysteroscopy is fine... Again I have to say, it's strange that this wasn't checked before as you had a termination fairly recently...  I hope your scarring is ok...

I feel like I haven't got much energy at the mo, so am trying to decide whether to cycle one more time or call it a day... DH also knackered....STill haven't got my head around de either... I have got a consultation at the Lister for march 7, but not sure whether I have the energy for the new place... LFC is at least a bit familiar and they have agreed to low stimm approach, too with prednisolone.  Also the price would be 6.5 k inclusive od drugs on full stimms, which they seem to favour...They also prefer long protocol, which gives a better egg quality.

sally - you may want to think about this protocol, too.  £150 gonal f + 75 merional + prednisolone 10 mg with cetrotide.  The combination of gonal f + lh - i have researched, is meant to help with egg quality.  I think with your ovaries you would have an amazing crop... Just a thought...  Wish I had at least one ovary like yours... The price at the LFC is £3700 inclusive of icsi + drugs...So,  approx 2 k difference..., whcih is not insignificant... I used to think that money is not important but after wasting 10k at the ARGC and no baby, it's has made me think a bit more carefully... 

Sally - Grateful for any therapist info as am increasingly thinking that this German lady I am with is a bit cold. I feel she is against donor eggs.  I also get the impression that she thinks I am too old for it and that I have missed the boat so to speak.... Makes me think that she is a bit bonkers and old-fashioned... .. She was also talking about birth defects of kids in older ladies as if I want to dwell on this at this point in time...    


Good luck girls and keep us posted... Lots of love and hugs...


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

Thank you Wiggie and Inconceivable for the replies and additional info.  I am still waiting to find out my FSH as Homerton could not give me a follow up appt till next Monday, so I asked for my notes.  They arrived minus the blood results which now cannot be found.  Brilliant....

Wiggie, so sorry about your BFN.  Hope you will be able to cycle again before too long and with the improved odds, get a BFP this time.  

Inconceivable, I hope you get to see a therapist who is able to help you feel more hopeful about tx, you have had a lot to cope with and process in the past few months (not to mention years) ...it's no surprise you are tired mentally.  I don't know why a therapist would have a negative view about donor eggs, isn't she supposed to help you decide what your own view is and how your relationship might cope with it.  Personally, I have found the DE stories on these boards really inspiring.  

As for mentioning birth defects - it is just unbelievable tactlessness.  After what you have been through you do not need to pay someone to make you feel worse about the situation!

It seems to me that if you need to speak to someone who can actually help you regain the mental strength for another cycle of whatever kind and to give you confidence that your body can still come through for you


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Girls,
Just popping in to see how you all are.
Inc. so sorry to hear of the hard time you are having.
I had a very fruitful consultation at the Lister last week. I must say I was very impressed with the enthusiasm of Dr.Thum. I believe he has a special interest in raised FSH. I still haven't made a firm decision whether to cycle, but if I do it will be in the Summer.
I do hope you get a better therapist as you need to be so strong mentally and physically for this game.
Take care.
Love to all!
Prija


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Good news!

Arrived in Barcelona last Sunday morning at 10.30am, rushed to check in hotel and then to clinic for 12.30am for scan and blood(phew!). Still only had one follicle. Was given a higher dosage that day and I now have five follicles ready for collection tomorrow at 1pm.

Also managed to find an acupunturist today and will see her again after ET.

I am in good spirits as I am well looked after - the clinic is fantastic .

Tonight hubby and I went to a posh restuarant and sat next to a grouop pf loud english people who actually paid our bill because they thought they had spoiled our romantic meal.  Better find out where they are dining tomorrow to see if they will pay for tomorrows meal .

Much love to everyone 

Odettexxx  

Just a note

I got more follicles by doing a very low dosage protocol - five compared to the previous 1-2.

So that says something, that you don´t always need to over work the ovaries to make more eggs.

odettex


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi Eden,
Looks like you and I have similar issues, I overstimulate too. (I don't have PCO though).The Lister has suggested very low drug dosages and careful monitoring.
Fingers crossed Odette.
Love Prija


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Eden - I would recommend you to try the LIster then and get yourself the best chance...

Hello Prija...

I got my period today - daY 19 of my cyclus... Sth weird is happening.  Couldn't/wasn't ready to go to have the scan this morning for better of worse.. Just felt too stressed out.. and couldn't do it... 

Will have to think v. carefully what I am doing to my health with all the stress and look at ways I can reduce it and go back to normal life as I am living in a twilight zone at the mo...

Off to lick my wounds and have some porridge...

Hope everybody is fine... Good luck to Sally... Hope you hysto goes well...


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Odette

Great to hear about your Barcelona trip - that's how to do IVF with style! Good luck with your EC tomorrow. What dosage of drugs were you on, out of interest?

Incon-  your period coming may well be down to your stress levels. Take it easy hun and look after your self!

Hello to everyone else....

Wiggie x


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

wiggie

50 units of gonul f and 50 of menopur (a couple of days of orgraltrun (can´t spell it)

the dosage was slighted increased to 100 units for one drug and that was two days before the trigger injection

odette


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

Odette, got everything crossed for you and your 5 eggs.
do you mind if i ask, I have seen you post on the poor responders thread too, is this because you have high fsh?  Interested to see what you said about the dosage of drugs in that context

My prescription for april is 300 gonal-f a day.  Some of you have said you think Geeta is a straight talker.  Would she have agreed to treat me if she didn't think I stood a chance?  From what i can gather, the chances are absolutely tiny.  I didn't know my fsh at the first appt and was told if all was ok i had a roughly 52% chance of success so the rug has been pulled well and truly out from under me with this fsh


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

FSH is only one of the indicators.  Antral follicle count may be a far more superior indicator at least according to american research...  and they seem to be miles ahead in fertility treatments ahead of this country.... Also - the LIster is v. good with fsh issues. They specialise in it especially Yaya Prakesh... They are £3200 for ivf + meds so it may be worth getting a 2nd opinion, too and then make your decision.That's one thing I wish I had done when I started my ttc journey 5 yrs ago...

all the best, 

Inc


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi Juicy

Interesting that Geeta has prescribed you with 300iu of gonal-f on a so-called "soft" cycle, as that is exactly what I was on at Guys with a std cycle. 

My FSH is 8.9 and my AFC is 10-13. I had 10 follies of varying sizes, between them producing 7 eggs, of which 3 fertilised - which is about the range the Geeta goes for anyway (she tries to get 2-7 eggs with soft stimms).

Don't know how that compares with your stats? What's your FSH and AFC?

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

300 gonal f is not that soft must be said... Medium stimms rather...


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi

I agree with wiggie and incon i had 300 of gonal f on a short cycle too. Incon you are so right when you say to get a 2nd opinion so many drs tell you different things its hard to know what to do at times.
Hope it goes well Odette
Mani


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

Thanks for your replies Incon, Wiggie, ManiT
My fsh was 13.5 this is a result from last November before my endo was treated.  Am clinging onto hope that when i test tomorrow it might have fluctuated down (not up please!)
Only had 5 antrals though which seems to be consistent with diminishing OR
Have been reading all your comments about the Lister as well as american clinics and wondering about a second opinion. Need to weight that up against burning desire to see whether I respond at all and what my egg quality is like - given I have to order drugs soon to be there in time I think we will just go for it on grounds may as well get the first BFN under our belts

in the meantime, have started wheatgrass, no booze and ordering 'Inconceivable' book so thanks again for the info

Think Geeta classes it as soft because there is no downreg phase as such in what she has prescribed?  Still, my ovaries obviously need a kick so I have no issues now with the 300 gonal f even though v different to what i'd anticipated


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

to clarify she said she would do a soft cycle but with medium stimulation


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Hi from Spain 

Great News!

All five eggs fertilised          

Over the Moon.

Egg transfer this afternoon followed by acupunture session.

Not sure if they will put three embies, probably two and the rest frozen I guess.

I've never had eggs left over before 

Speak soon

Odettexx  one happy chick


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Fantastic news Odette - make sure you enjoy the rest of your time in Sunny Barcelona!

Wiggie x


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## ManiH (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi everyone

Odette what fantastic news!!! Great to have extras to freeze too...good luck for ET later today
Mani


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Odette - hun - congratulations...  Closely following your progress whilst deciding whether to have one more go.  By the way was there a wl in the Barcelona clinic.  Thinking whether it 's possible to organise sth over EAster hols... Let me know when you get a minute.


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Well, got my two little embies on board (both 6 cells on day 3).  
Got a taxi staight to the acupunturist and just going to try and take it easy - flying back to the uk on Monday.

Thanks for all your good wishes ladies.

This is it  - the last go with my own eggs, Ï'm praying for a good result. 

odettex


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

will do incon

internet time running out

odettex


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Hello everyone, so sorry to be offline for so long. My good friend got married yesterday and I've been intensely involved with the lead-up to the ceremony, putting up mutual friends from abroad etc...had a great time yesterday but a bit worse for the wear today...(Have to stop all of that pretty soon...no champers and rich food for me if I want to get in shape for another possible IVF...)

Tomorrow is my hysteroscopy and I am nervous...not so much about the procedure itself, but because this will be the ultimate determinant of my fertility. If the scar tissue has grown back or if Yehudi Gordon finds another obstruction, that's pretty much curtains for me, even so far as donor eggs are concerned, given that my issue seems to be more of an implantation issue than an ovarian one. (Unless my FSH has mysteriously soared in the last few months!!)  Yehudi seems to feel that Dr. Feinman did a good job in America of removing it but there's still a chance. Also, Yehudi, like Dr. Feinman, (apart from his annoyance that nobody insisted on a hysteroscopy earlier over here) thinks that Create Health have done very well for me and that I should stay with them, so I have an appointment with Geeta on Thursday, in Harley Street this time. 

Also, I think I should say that I had dinner the other night with a friend of mine who's been at the Lister and unhappy with them for quite legitimate reasons (too much to go into now though happy to say more if anyone's interested- they were quite careless on a couple of things) and we have a mutual friend who also isn't having such a great time there. I say this not so much to diss the Lister but I suppose to flag up the fact that all clinics seem to have some problems...

And my poor donor - you wouldn't believe what he's already had to go through on my behalf! Particularly difficult as he's not even living here properly now. Getting him to change clinics is pretty  much out of the question and I suppose I do think there's something to be said for staying with people who know my history and have done well on the eggs and embryo front, which is not to say that I'm totally happy there...(I'm also very spoiled...I have Dr. Feinman and Trevor Wing replying to me immediately every time I email, whereas Geeta can take ages....)

Well done Odette, fingers crossed for you!!

Incon, thanks for the protocol suggestions, which I shall take to Geeta! Also, I do have the name of a very good therapist but she's in Primrose Hill, NW3. Having said that, she may have some South London contacts too. Would you like her number? (Is it okay to give numbers here?)

My body's still a bit confused from all the meds after the last hysteroscopy...(lots of estrogen and progesterone.) Had two periods last month, the second quite heavy, and now confused as to where I am on my ovulatory cycle...day 11 after my last period but nowhere near surging which is unusual for me. It's disconcerting, not to know. 

How's everyone else - Juicy what's the book you ordered? 

Hope everyone is good, wish me luck for tomorrow....


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## Wiggie (Oct 22, 2007)

Fantastic news Odette - best of luck!!! Would also be interested in knowing more about the Barcelona clinic (costs, waiting list, how many times you need to go over there, who does your monitoring scans etc) when you have a moment.

Sally - good luck with your hysto

Wiggie x


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Sally - good luck with your hysto ....  No point in talking to Geeta about the protocol I mentioned.  You 'll just waste your breath.  I tried.  LFC would do it.  You sound as if you are justifying your staying with Geeta.  It's enough that you are happy with them...

We all make choices  and we all do our best at the time of choosing.  Geeta has left a bad taste in my mouth personally..  The UCH were pretty clear that they wouldn't let me cycle bcs I didn't meet their criteria.  I wish they didn't say that they could get me pregnant, though as I would have gone elsewhere and got my treatment on time.  Nobody, however, tried to bully me like Geeta did when I asked incovenient or awkward questions.  

I hear from other people on the board that the ARGC, for example, doesn't let people cycle with dominant follicle let alone with cysts.  They are at least cautious with their parameters and they wouldn't have let you cycle without hysto either.  

Am sure all clinics have probs and they are all in it for money... I would say it's certainly one industry that does exploit people's vulnerable position.  I can't imagine being treated so shoddily in other walk of life. 

Anyhow.... Good luck... I hope the scar doesn't grow back...   

Odette - hun - hope all is well...

Hello Wiggie, Mani and the rest of the crew...


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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks Wiggle..fingers crossed, yes...

Incon, you're right; I'm sure I do feel a bit sheepish about staying with Create not only because of how they have been with you but because of how bad Geeta is at emailing me back, compared with the other doctors (Feinman and Trevor Wing) who have been great. But it's mostly because the other doctors advise me to stay with Geeta that I am....they think even Taranissisi wouldn't have got a better result for me in ovarian terms.

And do you want the number of that therapist? As I said if she's too far away she'll probably have contacts south of the river...

Anyway; I'll check back tomorrow when I have more news!


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Who is Trevor Wing.  You can pm me the name and number. Thx.  

Good luck with everything... I would say one thing about Taranissi. His attention to detail can't be faulted and I think his clinic is excellent for good responders like yourself.  SEems a bit of a wasted effort and too much money to have bloods on a daily basis for poor resonders like me.  

Fingers crossed re scarring...


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

wiggie and Incon

When I get back home, I will post the procedure that I had done bearing in mind that they will cater for your own individual history.

However at this clinic I have had my best result so far and have been very pleased with their care.

No frosties as three stopped developing but I have two embies inside and thats all I need.

odettexx


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## Juicy (Jan 23, 2008)

Wishing you the best of luck Odette, for the two week wait and beyond.   So great that you had a positive experience at the clinic and have been well looked after.  Look forward to learning about your procedure too, thank you. 

Hope Sally's hysteroscopy went well?


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Yes, sounds v. positive Odette. You deserve a good result...  Good on you girl...


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

New home this way................ 

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=131685.new#new


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