# ICSI - Second attempt



## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi girls,

I was wondering if anyone can share there experience and thoughts. I am currently going to be under going my second round of ICSI treatment and was wondering if any one has asked for specific things towards their treatment and does the clinics take on board this? What i was researching was steroids / blood thinners and immune testing - can i ask for these and push them with the clinic?, as it is my second and final chance on the nhs everything counts right? All help and information if much appreciated .

Baby dust to everyone


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## wanabmum (Jul 30, 2009)

Hi desprate, No harm in asking but not sure they will give you them so easily i got my steriods after 5 failed and some of the girls tell me they have been told they don't do immune testing in scotland.x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Its just something the husband mentioned that i never get cold = a gd immune system so i was just wondering maybe i had that thing that people talk about body attack sperm etc. Would the steriods etc work or have a better chance 4us?


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

I asked Dr Lyall at GRI if I could have blood thinners (clexane) and steroids (prednisone) (and also low dose aspirin which you buy yourself) for my third ICSI as the previous treatments had been BFN and she said that I could try them even though they usually give them to people who have had 3 failures or miscarriages. She didn't think they would make much difference in my case but said she could be flexible and allowed it. They didn't test me for an overactive immune system or clotty blood so the treatment was more precautionary. You could ask about it at your next clinic appointment. Good luck. x


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

I also asked about extra support for a second ICSI, primarily extra progesterone as AF arrived only 8dp3dt but was totally fobbed off in Aberdeen - they basically said they would do exactly the same again as everything went well up til that point. They had no interest in discussing extra implantation support at all.

Then......I went to GCRM, and they themselves suggested clexane and prednisolone. They did say they didn't normally suggest it until a couple of failed cycles, but as I had already had one, and this is our last go, they were all for it - though I think being an old bird helped sway them   Theu have also agreed to assisted hatching if the embryologist thinks it may help at all at the time. My feeling from my NHS experience, whilst positive in general, is that they will go only with evidence based medicine and won't even consider anything which may be experimental or not yet absolutely proven - which is fine, but with that attitude there would never be any advances! I have no proven immune issues, so this is purely hypothetical, but hey, it might just do the trick...

Good luck

S x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks girls for your help in the matter, it is worth a try to ask about it. I have only seen the DR once at the GRI i dont even know who it was it was at the very beginning of the first treatment before i seen the nurses? See if this is my second attempt then do i go under the consultants now or do i stick with the nurses? Me and hubby were sitting talking about it last night he said it would be worth a try just to even ask about it as we dont have the finance to actually go private just yet as we have just got our own house etc. But is there anything else you girls can suggest i can speak to them about? Will i get put back onto the same protocol as i was before or do they change it? i have lost over 2 stone since i was last there so will that effect anything? God what am i like with all these questions  .


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

hello there - you should get  a review appointment, and the idea of that is both to review your last cycle and to discuss the next one should you want to do that. Whether you stay on the same protocol probably depends on how your last cycle went - if it was good and you responded well, they might leave it as it was. Your review should be with a Dr, so you could think of any questions you have beforehand!

Good luck!
S x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Stelpo - Thats good then i will think of questions and hopefully get some answers from them. Well i did respond really well to the treatment . I got a wee bit excited about being late this month with af but heyho the wicked witch appeared today thought i was hopefully being lucky   every month we always get our hopes up dont we? wish i would just   the wicked witch!


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

I just reread your history, sorry I didn't realise your last cycle was last year - did you not have a review appt then? Even though, I would guess you will still have a meeting with the consultants before you start your new cycle   Good luck!


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Well we got our bloods took on our OTD, my hubby had said to the nurse not to phone as it would upset me further, we knew it was over. So i phone the clinic a few weeks later and told them i was going to get intouch in june to say i would be participating in treatment come august and they were fine but other than that i havent seen anyone am i ment to see a consultant at the end of treatment?


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

I think you are usually entitled to a review appointment, whether you take them up on that or not. Our last cycle was at an NHS clinic, though we were paying privately, and they asked whether we wanted one when I phoned with the test result. Like you, we knew it was a BFN well before OTD. They also offered to do it over the phone as we live quite a bit away, but we went ahead and talked to them in person. All the advice I was given beforehand was not to expect too much, which was the BEST advice, otherwise I would have come away disappointed. We all expect them to come up with a plan that will work and a solution to why the last cycle didn't work....they did however, do all the planning discussion about another cycle should we wish to go ahead, so we were ready to go straight away. We went away to think about it, and in the end decided to choose a different clinic more open to stuff like clexane etc. 
So, I am about to do another (and last) cycle at a different clinic, totally private this time, and they also offer a review afterwards. This time however, we probably won't go for one as we don't plan on any more treatment so whats the point really?

Hope this helps you? Might be worth you calling your clinic to see if you can have a review of your last cycle, or they may do this at your first appt for the next cycle? Either way, I'm sure they wouldn't mind you at least asking?

S x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks that actually helps a bit, the other issue we have is that if we have embies to freeze we are only going to put one back but if we have none to freeze putting back 3 how did you and your partner decide this and how many did u put back?


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

When you went for your OTD they should have asked you if you wanted a clinic appointment with a Dr to discuss the failed cycle. I told the nurse not to phone me also, as I knew it hadn't worked, but she then asked if I wanted a clinic app so I'm waiting to get a letter in saying when it is. GRI ACS is getting refurb in July so I won't get my app till Aug/Sept. First ET I had one embie put back and because it didn't work since then I've always had 2 put back (3 more ETs). In the UK 2 is the max you can have put back. x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Laura - I too am at GRI and i didnt get offered to speak to a consultant i think maybe because i was distraught at the appointment i couldnt even sit in the waiting room to be honest. Well i have to phone with my August AF and fingers crossed they have space i have been reading apparently they are mobbed and people are getting told oct/nov :O which better not be the case as i have waited long enough lol. Is it ICSI u are under going? And why is 2 the maximum they will put back :S shouldnt it be our choice?


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

That's a shame you were so distraught at your OTD  . I was like that the first couple of times too but now I guess I'm just used to it not working. If you want to get the extra drugs then you should try to speak to a Dr before you go back in August. They need to order in steroids and the nurse can't make a decision about the drugs, needs to be a Dr. Yeah, had first ICSI at GCRM and then 2 x at GRI. That's us used up all our free treatment so probably going back to GCRM and getting donor sperm. 2 embies is the max for safety reasons as if they put in 3 or more embies and they all implanted and you got preg with triplets or more the chance of complications (including miscarriage) gets higher. They don't have the same rules in the US and that's why that woman ended up with octuplets after IVF as they put loads and loads of embies back and they all implanted  ! x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Laura - How do i get an appointment with the Dr? And how do i know which one i am under i cant remember who i seen at the beginning im sure it was a male DR :S or was that the monklands   it goes by that fast!


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## Lightning (Dec 19, 2011)

My cycle was abandoned on fri and I made a review appt today for 1st aug so if you want one you best get on the phone to them x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Lightening - Do you just phone up and ask for a review appointment with the consultant?


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

We had already decided due to my age that we were unlikely to get any for freezing, they rarely freeze at my age (42 in a couple of weeks!) so we went for broke and put 3 back. Have to say, this was another factor in changing clinic - the NHS one were dead against 3, kept saying I was taking an unacceptable risk of triplets, whilst in the next breath saying my chances of success at all were less than 10%! Lots of clinics (inc new one) transfer 3 routinely if you are over 40, whilst we were made to sign against medical advice forms and were made to feel like we were very much in the wrong. They also said I should have brought this up before ET day, when in fact I had brought it up every time we were there and they brushed me off - not impressed. Having said that, if i were younger, i probably wouldn't have more than 2 transferred as the chances of success are much higher. Its a hard decision, we went round in circles about it right before ET, while everyone was waiting   Whatever you decide, if it doesn't work, you will think you made the wrong decision!!

Again, good luck!

S x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

stelpo -  hope so too well we might just decide on putting two back if we have 2 to start with


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## Lightning (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah just give them a call, maybe they feel you dont need one? See what they say x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Lightening - spoke to hubby tonight he was paying more attention at the nurse than i was at otd he had said she said that i will be on the same protocol as before due to responding well and wouldn't need any further follow up but i really want to put for the steriods n blood thinners surely it would hurt to give me a extra hand eh? especially if it is my last attempt


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

I guess ultimately it's up to you and hubbie. I decided to try them as it was my last NHS ICSI. If you do fall preg you need to keep taking them for the first 3 months which would be weird having to inject clexane into a preg belly but I guess it would be worth it! At first the clexane gave me nasty bruises but I found ways of reducing the bruising so if you want tips pm me and let me know. The only side effect I got from the steroids was palpitations but I think if I kept taking them I would have got used to that. Give the hosp a call and see if you can get a clinic app, it doesn't really matter what Dr they'll just assign you one. I totally understand how you feel, you just want it to work so will try anything! xxx


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

Ooh Laura, can I have your no bruising tips please??

S x


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## mrsmcc7 (Aug 16, 2011)

Sorry to crash Desperate, but can I ask is waiting a year to have another cycle was your choice or the clinics?

S x


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

At first when I injected clexane I did it after my shower in the morning and then got dressed right away, this caused massive bruises because I'd warmed myself up with the shower and then the waist band of my trousers was rubbing on the area! I found bruising wasn't so bad when I injected at night and then put on a loose nightie or loose pjs so nothing was putting pressure on the area. I'm not sure if this is advisable but I stopped using the alcohol wipes as they made the jag sting more but obviously make sure your hands are really clean. Also inject really slowly and don't rub the area afterwards, the technique you use defo makes a difference to bruising. x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Mrs - it was mines and hubbys decision to take time out as we felt we didn't want to rush things to be honest. Plus we get to go a wee holiday and relax n enjoy each others company first.  

Laura - I remember having one when being hospital after a operation and it was dredful my arm was alll bruised and sore afterward. I got an appointment in aug to see consultant so here is hoping they listen are the consultants ok in the clinic?


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

Yeah they are nice but you do need to be assertive with them!


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Laura - Dont worry hubby is coming with me as i am a push over and if they said no i would say ok and walk where as he would be like "well why cant she it wouldnt do harm" kind of thing. I am having a terrible couple of days tbh  AF arrived and i have been in agony for 2 days now and so heavy (TMI sorry) just feel totally drained. btw When do you g for your treatment love?


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## stelpo (Jan 3, 2012)

Laura, thank you!! Will see how I do!

Desperate, good luck - sometimes its surprising what you get if you only ask! I got a letter from the private clinic about the clexane and prednisolone to give to my GP - fully expected them to say no, but they gave me a prescription so saved us about £150 - woop woop, everything helps! It probably helped that I knew the (trainee) GP from working in the hospital, and she just agreed, I think she had no idea what she was giving me them for lol - I told her it was for pregnancy support following IVF, and she asked how many weeks I was! I had to explain that I hadn't actually done the IVF yet, at which point I think she got lost completely   but wrote the prescription anyway....

S x


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Stelpo - That right tho if you don't ask you don't get but as Laura says if you be stern/firm with them then im sure they know your being serious about the whole thing and not just some silly wee girl. I'm 25 but look really young for my age, but i have done the research and coming from a family full of nurses they have helped me too . I'm just looking forward to getting started but most of all looking forward to my holiday to relax and go to the spa .

Laura - How many attempts have you had love?


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## LauraM2011 (Jan 5, 2011)

Good luck stelpo! You could have a look for other tips on-line if my ones don't help! xxx

Desperate - I've had three fresh cycles of ICSI and one frozen ET. I've had a total of 7 embys put back but nothing ever sticks. The treatment always seems to go fine and then we fall at the last hurdle. DH's sperm making bits were totally ruined by having mumps in his mid 20s, I think this is why it never works. I am a bit more hopeful about the donor sperm but still feel sad that the baby won't look like DH but I guess some times you just have to accept things that you can't change or you'll make yourself very unhappy. We've been trying for 4 years and I cope a lot better now than I did at the start. I'm having a wee break at the mo, have a couple of hols booked for August and September so will probably start treatment in October/November. xxx


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Laura - my had problems when he was younger he had some fever thing and he has low sperm count. We've been trying for 4years also I am starting to be ok now but everyone round about me falling pregnant  but it will be our time soon


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## desparate2bmummy (Jun 19, 2012)

Wannabe - how did u get on today with your injection?


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