# Wife of FTM Transsexual needing advice



## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Hey everyone - we're kind of new to this forum and after trying (unsuccessfully) to conceive using a private sperm donor found through the net, my husband and I have decided to pursue the IVF route instead.

The question I have - and I don't know if anybody out there is in similar situ or knows of anyone who is -  is my husband is a Female to Male Transsexual.  He legally changed his birth certificate 3 years ago and we got married and he has been transitioned for the past 10 years.  

I know that when bio males are not the natural father of the baby conceived via IVF (i.e. sperm donor is used) their name is still placed upon the birth certificate as the father and just wondered whether we're right in assuming the same applies to Adam - he is recognised in law as a man, so would imagine it should be the same and that he doesn't need to apply to adopt the baby?  We'd ask the clinic but are unsure at present whether we would be telling them about Adam's status as we kind of feel it's private and don't want loads of raised eyebrows and all (though goodness only knows we do live in the 21st century, so would have hoped by now folk would be a wee bit more understanding  but hey ho...)

If anybody has any help or advice it would be really welcomed as we're rather worried.

Thanks and good luck to everybody who's trying out there.

Jane


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## nismat (Mar 7, 2005)

Hi there Jane (and Adam!), welcome to this board!
I don't know the answer, but it certainly _sounds_ like your assumption is right to me  I hope so anyway. Hopefully NatGamble (resident legal expert) will be able to come up with an answer for you.
Have you already started with a clinic? Not necessarily treatment as such, but just getting going. When you use donor sperm (or eggs), then there's usually a compulsory counselling session (I think it's an HFEA requirement), to make sure that you're aware of all the issues that surround donor conception, so I don't know if you'd be able to get through that without out-and-out lying about Adam's FTM status, if you were trying to keep it private 
I do know of a couple in America who are in just your situation, and they now have a 1yr old son via IVF. They've also got a teenage boy that the husband gave birth to, several years prior to transitioning, which meant that he had a great deal of understanding of what his wife was going through with pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding etc! Much more than your average man  

Tamsin


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## nismat (Mar 7, 2005)

Oh, and your post made me go back to read this thread http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=136946.0 (query about MTF hormone usage on sperm count), and in the last post, Duff mentions a trans-parents/parents-to-be group on Yahoo. Could well be worth a look


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## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Tamsin - will definitely seek out that Yahoo group and try to get a bit more in-depth info there too.

Re the counselling session, it may be a bit ooh, er I guess but perhaps we'll just have to see how things pan out...We haven't decided for def yet whether to reveal it or not - although they keep banging on about testing Adam's sperm 'Just in case' there's something they can do to help us!!  GOD help us...would they be in for a shock as would Adam - poor boy's getting rather jittery about the prospect of being frog marched into some side cubicle and molested  although I do know he'd love it if there was something they could actually do about it for him  

We have our initial appointment 2nd week in August.  I've got to have a scan and what have you - never been one much for prodding an poking 'down there so not looking forward to that bit AT ALL   Nevermind though, they'll be plenty more worse than that before we hopefully have a little bundle of joy to show for it, so I best get used to it!

Was interesting to hear about your friend in the US and glad they had a good result - as you say, am hoping Nat Gamble may pick up on the post and give her comments too.  I tried to PM her but her mail box is FULL so I guess she's in demand!

Anyhow, thanks again Tamsin and chat again soon.

Jane.


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi Jane

Sorry my inbox is full - I'll go in and delete some of the old stuff to free up some space.  I'm v excited by your post as I did some research on parenthood and gender reassignment a little while ago but haven't yet had any real clients to help!

The answer is that I think you are fine, but as far as I know this is an issue which is completely untested under the UK legal system so far so this is my reading of the law without any existing practical application:

Section 28 of the HFE Act 1990 says that, if a woman is married at the time of treatment and conceives through IVF with donor sperm, her 'husband' is the legal father.  That means that parenthood seems to depend on being a 'husband' rather than a 'man' which I think is helpful - since you are legally married, it seems pretty clear that Adam is the legal father.  The only possible problem is that section 12 of the Gender Recognition Act says that a GRC does 'not affect a person's status as the mother or father of a child' so it may be arguable that Adam retains his pre-reassignment status for the purposes of parenthood.  I don't think so though - I think section 12 is just intended to protect the status of people who already have children when they change gender.

In practice I'd therefore be sufficiently confident to advise you to go ahead and register him as the father on the birth certificate.  Of course, once the new Bill becomes law, Adam would be the second parent regardless of gender anyway, so there would then be absolutely no doubt.  In practice as well it doesn't matter if it's what you both want - it would only create a potential for legal dispute if you later argued about whether or not he was responsible as the father.

As far as the clinic goes, I hope you can find one that you feel comfortable to be open with, as I think you'll struggle not to end up revealing your situation.  Why don't you contact the Yahoo group and see if they know of any transsexual-friendly clinics?  I know LWC has had a handful of patients in similar situations and don't really bat an eyelid (incidentally they asked me to research this for them so they understood the issues for the patients they had).  Apparently there are 500 gender reassignment operations done every year in the UK so I imagine it's more common than you think and though people probably don't shout about, virtually all who subsequently want children will need fertility treatment.

Loads of luck on your journey, and if you'd like more involvement from me on the legal side, I'd obviously be absolutely delighted to assist.

Best wishes

Natalie
[email protected]


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## Mable (Apr 9, 2005)

Hi Jane and Adam,
Welcome and good to hear from you. It's great to hear that you've wanting to start a family and I wish you the best of luck pursuing the clinic route.

Don't have any specific info for you, except that at our clinic (kings london), if heterosexual couples are using donor sperm, they have to wait a year from having their consultation appointment/blood tests/counselling/go ahead (which in itself takes around 6 months to achieve). This is apparently standard clinic procedure. It is to allow the man to have a change of heart about using donor sperm vs his own. They waived this rule for us, as lesbians. You might want them to waive this rule for you, as Adam doesn't have the sperm, so it doesn't really apply. But then having the simplicity of not discussing Adam's status might be more important to you than waiting. Just thought I'd mention it - might be worth checking out in advance the donor sperm rules at whichever clinic you will be using.

Do let us know how you get on and join us on the other threads.
Mable


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## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks to you both Mable and Natalie - really interesting and helpful replies.  

Will def speak to Adam tonight re what you said, Mable, as we don't really want to postpone any longer.  Will also try and find out from the clinic what their policy might be, or perhaps ask others who are also using LWC and donor sperm - THANK YOU SO MUCH for mentioning it, as it gives us a 'heads up' before we go in August.  The very best of luck to you both too, Mable, and we'll keep you posted and join in with some of the other threads where we can.

Natalie - Your comments make total sense...I know what you mean re interpreting the law with respect to the GRA but Adam also agrees that the reference: the GRC does 'not affect a person's status as the mother or father of a child' more than likely applies to any children conceived before gender reassignment and as such he - being my legal husband - would be treated as the child's legal father.  Always nice though to have THE expert opinion on it so thank you so much  

Re being open with LWC - without any shadow of a doubt we would love to be able to be open about this full stop, as it's only an extra worry to have to be careful not to 'slip up' if we don't mention it to them and we both hate having to be sparse re the truth.  However, I'm really worried that if we mention it then perhaps they might not allow us to proceed - I know there's no reason on earth why they shouldn't, after all we're two responsible, mature, committed people in a loving relationship who simply want to add to our family unit but it's hard trying to guess about possible prejudices ahead of time and once you've told them, it's too late to back track if it appears it's going to be a problem...Am assuming, though, that if that were to happen there would some sort of legal redress to help us sort the situation out, so we could get treatment somewhere?  

Perhaps I'm just tying myself up in knots over this but this is just SO important to us both that we don't want Adam's status to be the fly in the ointment...

Anyhow, will let you know how we get on and great to know you're ready for a challenge should we need to call upon your services  Thank you so much for all your help.

All the best 

Jane


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## duff (May 26, 2006)

Hello Jane and Adam!

I don't know anything about the legal status I'm afraid.  I'm a transman and my partner and I were originally with LWC.  We didn't have a good time there I'm afraid.  With hindsight, we were treated really badly but, at the time, we were just grateful that they didn't throw us out of the door!  

At first we were trying with my partner and then, when it turned out she did not have good fertility, we suggested trying IVF using me as an egg donor.  The LWC ethics committee came back with a resounding NO and said that "they didn't approve of me switching back and forth".  Anyway, we thought that was it for us but then tried the Bridge Centre.  They have experience of trans patients (in all varieties and using all methods to ttc that you can imagine) and always treated us very well.  

best of luck!


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## duff (May 26, 2006)

oh, but I should also point out that the stuff with the LWC happened five or six years ago now, so you may well have an entirely positive experience with them!


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

duff said:


> oh, but I should also point out that the stuff with the LWC happened five or six years ago now, so you may well have an entirely positive experience with them!


Yes, LWC changed management a couple of years ago, and most of the staff moved over from the Cromwell IVF unit so there has been a complete change (shortly after which I started talking to them about running their legal service there) and I am sure you wouldn't get a negative response now. I know for a fact that Dr Venkat has treated several trans patients in the past year or so, and it was her who asked me to look into the legal issues so she would be well informed for the next one.

I'm sure the Bridge are good too, but another bonus of using LWC is you get my advice thrown in for free!

Best of luck

Natalie


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## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Duff and Natalie

Thanks for sharing your experience at LWC, Duff, - sounded traumatic!  Really glad it worked out well for you at the Bridge Centre though - may be worth us investigating possibilities there too, just in case...As you mentioned, it was before things had altered, management wise, at LWC and I guess that can make all the difference - or at least we hope so  

Natalie - We've actually got an appointment to see a Mr Ashour at Darlington. Do you know whether he is as 'open minded' as Dr Venkat?  Ideally we'd prefer not to do the whole 'cloak and dagger' thing and, as you also pointed out, we'd get the benefit of your advice for free too if we proceed with LWC Darlington so any info on what we might encounter with Mr Ashour (if known) would be most helpful and help ease our minds a wee bit  

Thanks again for all the help,
Jane and Adam.


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## motos (Mar 14, 2008)

Hi Jane

No experience of your situation to offer, but it did occur to me whether you were intending/wanting to get treatment on the NHS or in a private clinic? And how many clinics there are in your local area (the HFEA website is good as you can put in your postcode and it lists all the clinics in order of distance) and how restricted you are in your ability to travel?  

One reason I ask is that I think if you use a private clinic you might be less likely to be told you have to see a counsellor (we didn't have to at our curent one). Also, although I understand that you feel that Adam's status is your business not theirs, you will probably want to be treated in a place that you feel reasonably comfortable that they wouldn't be horrified if you did choose to tell them - so you might want to sound a few out, perhaps anonymously over the phone? I think that this is doubly the case if you don't have much option about where you have treatment, you may want to be careful about which doctor you have the initial appointment with. We were originally going to a clinic in Glasgow where some doctors wouldn't see same-sex couples so they had to make sure that we got appointments with the right people. (Ultimately we changed to a clinic where no-one has a problem treating us, which is much better obviously! But you may not have that luxury)

Good luck!


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## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the post motos - we are definitely looking to go private due to many reasons but all of your comments were certainly useful and well worth noting down, so thank you for taking the time.

Appointment is coming up soon so will let everyone know how we get on after the big day!

Thanks again everyone, it's great to have received so much friendly advice/support.

Jane and Adam


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi Jane and Adam

Sorry completely forgot to update you - your post reminded me!  

When I was up at LWC last week I had a quick discreet word with Dr Venkat and asked if she thought Mr Ashour in Darlington (who I've never met) would be equally approachable on these issues - her reply was a resounding yes.  Keep us all posted though - I certainly hope that's the case.

You might also be interested to know you aren't the only ones.  At the LWC open evening last week another couple approached me who were in a very similar situation to yours (in fact I thought they might be you!).

Best wishes

Natalie


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## janeandadam (Jul 10, 2008)

Hi Natalie - no apologies required; would imagine you lead a rather busy life!

How great to hear Dr Venkat's thoughts - will certainly keep everything crossed that Mr Ashour is indeed open-minded too.  We are now of the mind that we will be disclosing the situation at the appointment and it will be a great relief if the support is positive.

Very interesting to hear about the other couple - no it definitely wasn't us but could understand your confusion...bit like buses, nothing for ages then 3 come along altogether  - and nice to know we're not alone.  We too hope that they also get a good outcome and will keep everybody updated here as to how things go at the appointment...really getting nervous but also excited too now.

Thanks again for your support/help and 'speak' soon.

Jane


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