# Husband bombshell



## MissMayhem

I had a break from here for a while as had become totally consumed. Been severely depressed and off work for months as a result. Me and DH haven't been getting on for a long time. My behaviour at times has been very unreasonable and a lot of my anger has been directed at him; I feel though that a lot of this has been because he has never properly supported me or ever been there for me. I have always felt that having a baby wasn't as important to him though he claimed this was mainly because he already has a child so couldn't share my need

We have our planning appointment for third IVF this Wednesday. Yesterday he told me that he is 'not sure' if he wants a baby and has been going along with things to keep me happy. I am devastated. He says it's because of how I've been but I think he has always felt like this and this is what I've subconsciously been reacting to. He's also said that his idea of family is different to mine and he wants to do his own thing at Christmas when his daughter is up.

I feel like a complete mug. Have wasted the last six years of my life believing  we wanted the same thing. I feel he's pushing so I'm the one who leaves and so prevent him from being known as the one who left his wife during treatment. He's adamant this isn't the case

He is not a bad man but I can't see what the compromise is. He's unhappy now and I'll be unhappy if he's out (playing drums in a band) every weekend, Christmas and new year, the latter particularly are really important family times for me, and his daughter

Did post in mens room hoping for male input but no replies so am hoping for some objectivity here. Is there any hope or do we just want completely different things?xx


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## Littlehare

Hello missmayhem.

Im so sorry you and ur DH are going through a rough time. Fertility treatment is no easy task especially on couples relationships, with all the drugs, hormones, emotions, finances just to name a few its no real surprise a lot of relationships suffer throughout the process.
Have u and DH thought about using ur clinics councellor? Me and DH didn't and we have been blessed with our first ever bfp but we did discuss the counselling a lot in the 2ww and both agreed if we got a bfn then we would look into it as every negitive pregnancy test is a hard pill to swallow but a ivf bfn is a whole different ball game.

I really hope things work out for you and ur DH and u get ur much deserved BFP xxx


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## MissMayhem

Thanks for your response *littlehare*. I was in counselling with nhs clinic and finished as was deemed to be 'fine'. DH came once, for me, and refused to go again. Yesterday he said that sitting in a room talking about it won't solve anything. I've said on numerous occasions he needs to go, for this and other things, but it's a no-go I think.xx


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## HopeCove

Hi Miss Mayhem
Just wanted to let you know that I read your post and really feel for you, this process is so hard and it can take a heavy toll on a relationship. It must be doubly hard for you when your DH already has a daughter. I can't offer you all the answers but I have noticed that men sometimes retreat into their 'fun' stuff to escape - your DH's drums remind me of that - and it could be his way of coping? Not that it makes it much easier for you .... I once told my DH that he was more important to me than having children and it was really helpful for both of us - I felt that otherwise he was in danger of being a bit sidelined in all our sadness and our longing for a baby. I know it's so hard, and I'm sure you've tried all this, but can you try to have a few really good nights out together before your next cycle, remember what it's like to have fun with each other again? Ban IVF from the conversation and remember why you fancied each other in the first place.
Then you might be able to have some proper conversations afterwards when you are both feeling a bit more secure? It's a shame he won't go to counselling, we found it really helpful, as long as you get a good counsellor. 
I am sending you a big virtual hug, look after yourself.
Xx


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## rmatz

I know that IVF was really hard on both me and my husband. I know my husband wanted a child, maybe even more than I did, but that didn't stop him from almost backing out a few times or saying awful things about the cost or me in his frustration.

I had an anxiety attack with one of my doctors after a particularly bad argument during our last IVF (he suggested counseling for me and he was right).

A few things helped me through those dark times:

1. I know my husband's way of arguing and while I hate it, I understand it. I understand it partly because I am very similar at my worst. When I hurt, I lash out like a wounded animal. I think he does too. So, I tried my best to forgive the ugly things he said because I wasn't innocent of saying horrid things myself. No, this si not healthy, but it is honest. We are working on it, but in those moments, knowing this about ourselves was very important....and my doctor told me as much 'People often say horrible things they don't mean when they are angry.' 

2. I decided to trust my husband's actions more than what he said in the arguments because of the above and also because actions show more what a person intends.  No matter what my husband said or what I say, we still showed up for our appointments and still paid those massive bills.  There were times we were arguing on the way to a drs. appt! And when it was over and we still had no successful IVF, he was ready to move on to donor eggs. So, all of those things he said were only fear. Perhaps your husband was doing a bit of what we were doing, trying to protect ourselves from the pain of it not working by trying to convince ourselves we didn't want it as much as we did. In the end, though, our actions showed we were willing to do whatever it took.  

3. No matter how hard the path was, we always felt we had to see it through. We had to make the best decision we could with where we were at the time.  The question was always, what choice can we live with? We did not want to do anything we'd look back on and say, 'I regret that or not doing that.'  As scared as we were, we knew that if we didn't try and didn't do it, we would most likely regret it, But if we got a child, we were sure as hard as it might be, we'd never regret the child.  We can fill our minds with fears of how hard it will be, but those fears are not facts.  But you just have to make the choice you feel you can live with best and focus on the moment at hand.  So, regarding the next IVF.  Just between you, decide what choice you can live with most.  

4. We took the time we needed to be mentally able to do it. If your husband needs time to feel sure and you can give him that and you have it, it won't be horrible to take it. We had a few months where we just needed to be more ready. I think there was 6 months between our second and last IVF. It was me. I wasn't ready to deal with it, but then we were on a time limit with insurance help and I knew I needed to do it or I'd regret it so I did. Having the time to come to that place was very helpful. Maybe that is all that your husband needs...time to be sure its what he wants and not something he is doing just to make you happy. I wasn't sure for myself, but in the end, I knew that no matter what the issues were with my husband, I wanted to be a mother and I knew I was doing it for myself and not him. That time helped me see it clearly and once I was able to be sure I was doing it for myself and not just for him, I could move forward.

I know this hurts and you have been through so much and you have every right to every emotion. I only want to say for your sake, try not to put words in your DHs mouth or thoughts in his head.  Don't believe you know what he is thinking, especially when what you think is the opposite of what he is telling you.  Not for his sake, but for yours.  I cause myself so much pain because there is a part of me that thinks I am psychic or whatever. I think I know what everyone must be thinking of me and how they must be feeling. I convince myself so deeply of these things, that I suffer because I am sure it's all horrible.  We can be so hard on ourselves in the voices we give to these other people, even when they probably don't think what we imagine they do.  

So, for your sake if you are imagining horrible things you think your husband is feeling and he is telling you directly that it's not true, the best you can do for yourself is try to believe him until he shows you in action otherwise.  Not for him, but for your mental health. It's dangerous to think we know the future or others internal thoughts.

I hope you can calm your thoughts and focus on the decisions at hand and just know you will do the best you can with where you are and there is no pressure to do better. You are doign the best you can and that is good enough.  Focus on the here and now and try to be kind to yourself. One day at a time you can do anything!


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## Hopefulshell

I think when you're in the midst
of all the ivf treatment and in between stages
it's so utterly all-consuming that it's very easy 
to become very focused on yourself - how you 
feel, what you want - and it's easy to forget that
OHs go through the same pain, the same feelings
of loss, disappointment and desperation for a happy
outcome. Because men generally handle it 
differently to us girlies it can seem that they are 
less affected by it all or that they don't want it as 
much as we do. But that's not true and maybe 
your DH just needs time to deal with his own 
emotions first so that he is able to support you 
through another tx cycle. His fear of failing again 
may be behind his appearing to back off a bit? 
He's seen how much you are hurting and maybe 
by putting the breaks on he's simply trying to 
protect you? 

It's so important to sit down and talk to him about
how HE feels, without being defensive or getting upset 
if you don't agree with what he's feeling. Show him
that you understand and that his feelings/concerns 
are important to you. He needs to feel like he's your 
priority not tx. You don't have to feel the same or agree but 
at least give him the opportunity express himself and 
listen without trying to second guess what he's going 
to say. 

I think because ivf is all about us girls going through 
the physical side of tx and generally the ones doing all
the research it's easy to just expect our partners to go
along with what WE want and I know that when you are
so consumed with longing for a baby it's so tempting
to just keep doing back to back cycles. But I've learnt
that having a break between each one - six months or 
more - puts you both in an emotionally stronger place 
to get through it together. If you're both struggling then
how do you turn to each other for support? 

My advise would be to just give him time and respect that 
he needs this right now. I know it's massively frustrating 
to have to wait but maybe taking a break from tx yourself
will help you feel stronger too so that when you go through 
another cycle you are both in the best place to support each
other  Ultimately tx has to be a joint decision so hopefully 
by showing him you are willing to wait until he is fully on board
will reassure him you care how he feels. When you truly love
someone their happiness should be more important than your 
own. By respecting his views will demonstrate this and hopefully
encourage him to want to make you truly happy too  

X


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## CrazyHorse

MissMayhem, I've been following your story for a while, and I think you're correct about your husband not wanting a baby as much as you do -- he's been honest about that for some time, if I recall correctly, just not saying previously that he wanted to pull out of doing more IVF treatment. I don't see how you can resolve this without a lot of very difficult and honest talks, and a lot of compassion for each other. I'm not one to recommend counseling at every turn, but this really seems like a situation where couples counseling is a good idea, to keep discussions from spiraling into out-of-control rows.

What are your feelings on donor eggs? If you're willing to consider donor eggs, you and your DH can take some time out and work on your relationship first. If you're dead set on using your own eggs, though, that's less of an option. 

I'm so sorry you're finding yourself in this situation.


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## jdm4tth3ws

When my husband got the results and it was shown at that time he was the one with issues (we bith have issues now) he quickly accepted he would never be a dad. he assimulates things differently. i, however wasnt ready to quit without trying. i saved like mad and when i spoke to him about trying icsi, i was hurt to hear he would go through the process 'to make me happy'. i took that on the chin and dragged him through icsi, kicking and screaming almost. he signed things he had to sign and dtd for sample. that is it. no emotional support, no helping with jabs, nothing. i am not complaining btw. the first round was successful and even through the pregnancy i used my mum and friend for emotional support as he was unable to give it. tough pregnancy as well. however, when child was born, he was there throughout the whole of labour (he had said he would sit outside, my mum was too) was very helpful to me and he cried when DS was born. we went for icsi 2 which ended in mc and again, there were rows and tears and tantrums from him. i pretty much ignored every hurtful thing he said and got on with the job at hand. just after mc, we had shock natural and that became our next DS. we have had fet after fet after fet and we have now had 8 mcs in total. after each mc, he has withdrawn from ke and i have had to deal with the grief on my own. dont get me wrong, we love each other unconditionally but he doesnt handle emotion well at all. so i have learnt to use others for comfort but let him know im still there if he needs me. 
sometimes i think you have to learn to just shut down from the hurtful things they say as they are scared of failing you amd scared of not being able to give what you need. they process it differently to us and forget we need them to be caring and comforting for us. i find dh retreats into playing guitar or woodwork and he presents these things to me as if there my comfort things. there not, but i can see he is trying very hard to support me just not in the way i need. 
practical things hes good at, emotional woman stuff, [email protected] but as long as you both still love each other and understand its a protecting himself exercise you will come through this. 
sorry if i havent helped at all.
jade xxxx


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## LuckyE

Hey Miss mayhem, you've had a lot of good positive advice. I am going to give you some from my experience. My ex DH - so not a good start . He had a teenage daughter and they didn't have a great relationship so I knew he wasn't as excited about having another family but was doing it "for me" because he loved me. My gut instinct all along was that he didn't want kids even though he was doing it for me. Basically he has been there and done that and it's not for him.

I hung around though as I thought he loved me enough to have kids but he didn't. So I'm doing it on my own. I do resent him a bit for him dragging his heels as it's more difficult for me to conceive right now. But in the end it's my fault for not listening to my gut and taking care of my own needs.

You say you resent your DH. Completely understandable. You are 40. You need to act now with or without him if you want your own biological kids. If you don't mind DE then you can wait to see if he'll come around.

I know this might not be what you want to hear but time is not on your side. *IF he loves you enough* he'll come round to you eventually.


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## Molly99

MissMayhem, if only hugs could make it all better 

We've chuckled / commiserated and ranted about our husbands for so long. Sometimes we've questioned our sanity, is it all us and our suspicious minds or are we struggling with the complications of step family lives and it's all just a tangled up mess? Sometimes its a relief when the truth starts to come out, it will always be a shock though x

LuckyE's last sentence really struck me 'If he loves you enough he'll come round to you eventually'

You have put your heart and soul into building a future with your DH, creating a family and healthy environment for his child, you have loved her, provided for her and picked up the pieces when both bio parents were acting poorly and created a home. This has been hard, you've sacrificed a huge amount and done this even when you have been hurting and life would have been so much easier without all of the mess.

But you did it. Because you love him. *You *stepped up. *You *put aside your needs in order to look after his. It's easy for our husbands to forget this and for them to concentrate on fertility as being the only difficult thing in their life. It's a far simpler thing for them to comprehend.

Love is hard. You make sacrifices. It's *his *turn to step up and if he loves you then he will. He might need help and love to get him there, he sounds like he's panicking and fleeing from the fight at the moment. If he's not willing to do this then you have to make your choice lovely.

My DH and I had to hit rock bottom in absolute flames before we actually started to talk again. We're still tinder paper but sometimes you have to get it all out before you can start to rebuild...if that is what you want to do lovely. If you still think that there's something there to save then take a step back and do what you need to do for a while. Let him see that you are a strong woman and will carry on.

We're all here for you for the journey xxx


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## bombsh3ll

Miss Mayhem,

I'm sorry your husband isn't on the same page as you regarding treatment, I can only imagine how that adds to the pain of being unable to have a child knowing that the person who is supposed to be beside you in your quest doesn't really want one.

Even in the fertile world, when one partner wants children and the other goes along reluctantly or is roped in with an "accidental" pregnancy this is seldom a recipe for happiness, & more so for those of us for whom the path to parenthood is less straightforward.

To be honest, I think you need to take what positivity you can from the fact he has been up front with you. Yes it is late in the game, & going through a couple of rounds of self funded IVF "to keep you happy" is not the support you deserve, but crucially it is not too late for you to take control of your future and make your own decision.

That is really what it boils down to, you have two options - decide to stay with your husband and accept his wishes for no further treatment, or go it alone. Another lady posting on here put it really well by saying she would rather be a single parent than a childless wife. I was lucky, my partner wanted a baby too, probably not as badly as I did, but if he hadn't I would have pursued my dreams by myself without a doubt. 

Only you can decide, but whatever you do don't let it fester on for more years hoping he'll change his mind & resenting him until it's too late.

Take care,

B xxx


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## MissMayhem

Do you know, I wrote almost a whole page and was so rambling and incoherent that I've just deleted it! So all I will say is yet again, so much wonderful support and advice from you all, as usual. I don't even know where to begin how to thank you all. I agree with you all, *rmatz* you made me laugh with the psychic comment, am definitely guilty of that! But oh to be able to talk about something IF related and say 'we'. I could never say that, it would always be 'I'. And that's not because I don't care about him or want to involve him, it's because from beginning to end he has never shown the slightest bit of interest.

I recalled last night the day of my second egg collection where we were expecting embryo transfer 2 days later which would have been the weekend. I remembered that he had a gig planned that weekend and mentioned it, genuinely expecting him to be shocked that we'd forgotten and try to make plans for someone to cover him. How naive I was! He told me point blank he was going to that gig transfer or no transfer, that my mother could come with me if necessary! The next day the hospital rang and said that the one egg they'd collected had perished so that was it at that point, my dream was over then as I didn't think we would ever get funds for private treatment. I was bereft yet out the door he walked and left me to it. And he wonders why I think he doesn't care! He is actually a very lovely, kind human being, but when it comes to emotion I've had it.

I guess I have a lot of thinking to do. But thank you, I will pore over your advice again tomorrow. Thank you, and bless you all.      xxx


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## rmatz

I am glad you got a laugh out of it anyway! Try to take it in and try it all on for size. There was lots of good info here from lots of peole that seem to really get you and care for you here. That is not nothing, if not quite what you need.

I get the 'we' thing. I think a lot of women feel that way in so many areas of life.

As much as my husband was with me in it, he was also detached. He didn't research anything. In fact, this caused problems along the way cause he got really hurt and angry when the first one, maybe even the second, failed.  The third he finally understood, but before those fails he actually thought that IVF meant certain pregnancy. He never bothered to look anything up and kind of checked out in the doctors visits on some level.  When it came time to do donor eggs, though he was the one pushing for it most, guess who did ALL of the research and communication? Yep. No we there for sure. 

My husband also retreats to his little room and doesn't really have much time for me.  It all sounds worse than it is...well, at least I have gotten used to it or enjoy my own time a bit too. I am not sure.  My point is so many of us have husbands that seem to retreat into their own thing even in the good times, much less when they are trying to avoid messy feelings.  

It's important to understand how our partners work so we don't take their behavior personally.  It doesn't really mean what it feels like to us. Now, we can't always live with it. There may not be enough of the good to balance these challanges, but I imagine all relationships have a bit of these kinds of things and IVF is like a magnifying glass for all the little things we usually forget to see in the bask of love.

All we can do is try to build more 'we' moments to balance out the lonely ones. It is also equally important, I think, that we don't forget to have some 'I' moments in our loneliness and desire for 'we' ones.  A healthy We is made up of two healthy 'I's.

I hope you feel better soon!


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## rmatz

Oh, but I did mean to say that what he did about the gig was not fair.  That is a little too much 'I' for a healthy 'we'. I am so sorry you experienced that and can see how traumatic that is to remember.

There was a time when i wasn't sure my husband and I would make it during IVF. I asked myself if the only reason I wanted a child was to be with him and it wasn't. I say, as much as it hurts, if you want a child and think you'd be okay as a single mom if things fell apart with him, and he is willing to help you do that, whether or not he has his heart in it can be forgotten.  It may not be popular or nice, but I basically told myself I am going to do all I can to stay with him to get my child and then if it falls apart, at least it wasn't all for nothing. I could face the idea of a life without him, but was having a harder time giving up the idea of motherhood.  So, as ugly as it sounds, I needed him to do that. Or rather, it would have been horribly hard without him.  So, even if you aren't sure you want your husband but you are sure you want a child and he would at least be someone who would be a decent part time father and not shirk responsibilities and is willing to give you a child, try to find the value in that.  Better than later having to pay for donor sperm, I guess.

Sorry if this sounds cold, but in the end your being a mother does not have to depend on your marriage succeeding unless that is a requirement you make.

That said, it may well all be okay in time. There are just some things one partner wants more than the other, but the willingness to do it for the other one could be seen as an act of love. Though, bringing a child into the world should have a bit more cooperation, you'd hope.


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## MissMayhem

Thanks again *rmatz*. I will definitely be pouring over it all again tomorrow as there was some really sound advice and food for thought contained. You can't beat this place for amazingly strong, caring and supportive women who really understand. That support is priceless.

I know what you mean about the research and the guarantees of what IVF will bring, DH is definitely like that, so was I at the start. On a rare occasion last month where he sat and asked me questions about it and, also, was quite biased toward DE. He asked why I couldn't do a cycle and then 'just' have a DE if nothing came of my eggs again. He has no idea we don't even have tandem cycles in this country; again neither did I but I guess the difference is it's us that makes it our job to find out.

I think part of my problem is I have such an amazing father! I've been taught all my life to take people as they are and not to compare my relationships to others but that can be really hard to avoid doing sometimes. Even harder when it's not necessarily a comparison as such but an expectation born from what is completely 'normal' for you. Normal for my DH though were parents who hardly communicated and certainly never showed any physical affection towards each other. Whereas for me, when I've been at my lowest through all of this, my father instinctively knows what to do and say. He's amazing, I may not be blessed with TX at the moment but I sure am blessed with amazing parents so am very lucky in that sense 

And speaking of blessings, just read your signature. HUGE Congratulations!!! How amazingly lovely, good luck with your scan next week  xxx


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## rmatz

Thank you, MissMayhem 

We couldn't believe it at all and it was hard to get excited with the posititve test since we'd had them three times before and then it went away.  We were literally two days away from starting donor treatment when it was confirmed. The clinic had already found a donor for us and we had taken a loan from the bank to afford it. 

Now I know it's not helpful to say that it can happen to anyone, because there are always unique factors in everyone's journey. What I think it can show, though, is that sometimes the dark days can be followed by good ones again.  Sometimes the good things to come in our lives come in ways we never imagined in our limited view of possibilities (again, psychic me never would have thought it possible).  Some women have a hard time coming to terms with donor eggs. For the most part I came to it easily (there was some sadness), because I knew carrying the baby would be my chance. Also, I would gladly have adopted anyway. I had a very bad childhood and a really bad family, so, to me, family is chosen anyway.  It would have just been another way my true family would come to be from other methods.  So, my spirit was ready to move on and whichever way I got the baby it would have been mine.  We just happened to save a lot of stress and money. With my DNA, I'm not sure the baby is better off, though, lol.

Sorry, back to you.  I think what you said in your last message was very insightful.  You and your husband had very different teachers when it came to expressing feelings, especially love.  I am married to a German so there has been a lot of adjustment in not getting a 'normal' reaction.  I think most marriages are a little bit like blending two cultures.  You both come in with ideas of normal but have to learn to find a mixture that works for you, like my husband and I intermingling German and English sometimes.

I took sociology in Uni for a bit. My professor told me there are things called operational definitions for intangible things like love.  Those are the way we personally define/measure how much another person loves us.  For example, for her, she thought if her son wrote her lots of letters that meant he truly loved and missed her. For him, though, he thought if he called her relatively often, he was showing his love... The problem comes when she measured his love by her definition and he was showing it with his.  Healthy relationships either learn to recognize the other person's way of showing love and accept it, or they find a mutually fulflilling way of showing it. They find a common measuring system.  

At the same time, it's impossible to expect someone to do something instinctively if they were never taught.  My husband will never be the gentle, open personality like I grew up with in the South of the US, but I have learned to understand his way of showing love ( and I have trained him a bit too, lol  ).

the other thing that you said that was insightful was that it is probably expectations that are getting you hurt. I think in most cases in life that is often the reason behind pain.  I learned also in the hard times with my husband a big mistake I made was expecting my happiness to come from him. I had to detach a bit and learn to not expect him to care more for my own happiness than I did. If I wanted to see a movie, I didn't need to wait for him to go with me. I went and did not let self pity that I was there alone stop me from enjoying it.  I found ways to live as full a life as I could with or without him.  The less I needed him, the less I expected of him and the happier I got.  It's a ongoing struggle though, as being pregnant leads to new expectations, but I still work hard to not be dependent on someone else for my mental health. Then, when they do step up, I can truly enjoy it, but when they don't, it doesn't destroy me. 

At least that is what I try to do!!

That said, there are some inherent agreements that are a part of marriage. You do after all join lives, so there should be respect and at least an effort on his part to be a husband and not just a roommate. I have my role as a wife that I have to live up to, as well. So, if your husband is treating you with disrespect (as I see what he did with the gig as being very disrespectful and unkind. Even if he wasn't as invested as you in the IVF, if he was doing it to make you happy I think that includes attending the transfer!!), then there has to be discussion and reassessment of what marital expectations are and find an agreement you share.  It has to be more than words and it has be balanced, or resentment creeps in and, trust me, it is toxic.

Well, again, just rambling from what has helped me. It may not be what fits for you and as a counselor once told me, 'take what fits and throw out the rest'.  All I mean, is I hope you find peace, strength and direction in this hard time and the future is wide open. Happiness can come in ways and by means you never can imagine, you just may have to get through the storm first.

hugs from here!


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## Blondie71

It's funny (not in a haha way tho) a good deal of us on the single parents board if you read our stories were also wives like you not so long ago and infertility and loss of children etc led us down this path and tbh I wake up and enjoy the faces of my gorgeous children a heck of alot more than I did my ex I can tell you x


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## MissMayhem

It gets worse. Said he couldn't get time to come with me to hospital but his mother fell walking the dog and guess where he is?! Yep, at the hospital! I am FURIOUS.


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## Jes87

Hey Miss Mayhem,

I'm a guy and saw you were looking for male input so thought I'd share my 2 cents, although some people won't like it. It's just my opinion though and in no way is it "right"

First thing I will say is that  your husband is being a dick in my opinion. Flat out refusing to talk it out properly or go to counselling is just plain selfish.

I suspect he might just not want more kids and is too scared to put it so bluntly, which could also explain why he doesn't want to do counselling as it would inevitably come out. 

At the end of the day, if he's not willing to put in some effort then I'm sorry to say it but I doubt it will ever get better for you. Marriage needs constant care and attention to work, not to mention compromise. Maybe try writing him a letter? I find it easier to convey my feelings in writing than actually saying them out loud. 

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself whether being married is making you happy or not. I'm a firm believer in doing everything possible to save a marriage, but sometimes it just isn't possible and if you have done everything in your power to try and make it work and it still doesn't, well...I think if you ask most divorcees if they are happier being single the answer would be a resounding YES! If you're staying married just for the sake of the future child, I would bet a happy single parent will do a better job than an unhappy and unloving couple.


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## MissMayhem

Thank you *Jes87* I really appreciate you commenting. The support I get from the girls here is second to none but as I doubt myself so much lately I often worry that I'm maybe reporting things in a biased way, am always looking for objective thoughts but know that, ultimately, men and women are different so I think perhaps it's just that and that there really may be nothing unusual in how he behaves. So to hear from you is a relief as I worry that my father and friends' partners may be biased towards me as well, even though I know that they would always prioritise my friends in similar circumstances. He's furious with me now and thinks I'm being unreasonable after leaving the house today saying he will try his best to support me. To him, his mother's situation is an emergency so is important, ours or let's face it, mine, is not. I got the dates wrong so he booked a few hours off tomorrow and told me he CANNOT change that. I believed that! Was willing to go to his mother myself as genuinely believed that he simply wouldn't be ableto get away! Don't get me wrong, if something happened to my mother I would be frantic, we are very close, but unless it was something critical I would _have_ to prioritise appointments like this. I'm beaten and now have to face the pity of the doctors when I turn up without him. And next week it's Christmas and my focus is usually his daughter. Thanks again for your input *jes87*, I really appreciate it.


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## CrazyHorse

No, I don't think your husband's behaviour is just his "being a guy". My DH would never, ever have missed embryo transfer unless he was physically prevented from getting there. I think in all our treatment to date, there were only 2 clinic visits he wasn't there for. I realise most partners' work schedules don't permit that, but I don't think most men who want to be fathers would choose to miss embryo transfer for non-emergency reasons, particularly when their presence is important to their partners. I understand the desire to try to be understanding of his point of view, but I agree with Jes87 that his behaviour towards you regarding IVF has been very wrong.

I'm sorry he's not going to be there for your appointment today.


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## Molly99

Hello lovely,  only a quickie as I'm on my phone at work.  I just wanted to say a big good luck for your appointment.  Go alone with your head held high, you're doing what you need to do. 

I had the emergency talk (well,  screech and shout) with my DH last month and it struck a chord with what your DH said.  An emergency is nothing other than blue lights flashing for my Dh,  his very words.  Emotional needs will never ever be an emergency.  The fact that their emotional detachment causes the problems im the first place is just not something that they can acknowledge

Im not sure what to do with that, I only mention it because I think that a large number (though definitely not all) of men think that way.  I read a lot about aspergers after you mentioned it and, fore, it gave me a lot of understanding about my dh's hurtful actions.  

It all sounds so horribly familiar lovely.  It sounds like he is digging his heals right in and refusing because he feels pressured, so he's going to do the exact opposite.  What our men cant see is the viscous circle that they're creating.

I can't link on my phone but there's some fascinating stuff online about living with an emotiomally detached man - he will distance himself when threatened with increasing emotional closeness or emotional needs from someone.  The word threaten resounded with me,  my dh certainly sees my emotions as a threat and slips into fight or flight.  A cuddle from him is often all I've ever needed or just for him to be with me and not running away.

I don't know whether that sounds familiar lovely missmayhem xxxx


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## Molly99

Sorry for the horrendous spelling and mistakes.  Stupid little phone keyboard xx


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## sophiekh

Hi MissMayhem
I am sorry to read your post, its kinda like deja vu. I was in the same situation last year, I can understand how extremly difficult it is emotionally and mentally dealing with the bombshell. 

My ex was similar in a way as he never wanted to go counselling and I found it hard to express my feelings - being anxious, constantly thinking about it IVF, worrying about the next bombsell. I started to feel second best and slowly (although I didnt see it) he was distancing himself from me. 

My ex wanted kids so desperately which is the only difference


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## deedee_spark

Hi MissMayhem, 

I think Jes87 has a point. 

You seem to be making excuses for your husband.  My 1st husband was so incredibly selfish. He wouldn't go on holiday with me - preferred to be with his friends. When I look back on the excuses I used to make for him, I cringe. My 2nd husband would never dream of being like that.

Being second priority is someone's life is not a nice. Totally wrecks your self esteem. You need a serious think about what you get from this relationship. Infertility is horrendous so if it is that complexity which is causing issues, I don't see why he won't go to counselling. Maybe because he feels ganged up on? Only he knows...

It is hard for you. I get that. But I ask you this, are putting up with cr*p behaviour because you want a baby or because you know this is just a rough patch? If you were 20, would you ditch him and find someone else?

You know you have options to have a baby. Don't be trapped by someone that is not loving/supporting you.

I hope the appointment went well. Fingers crossed you get a baby. You deserve one.

xx 

Update: Read through my post and it comes across as harsh - it wasn't supposed to read like that. Sorry.  
I really hope your DH sorts himself out and is just a bit stressed/intimidated by the treatment. I suppose I don't want anyone else giving their life to people who play games with our fertility - it hurts too much.  Maybe look it at this way, do you want a baby more that anything? If you do, try to do what you can to make it happen. You come across as a lovely, compassionate person, a great future mum. xx


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## MissMayhem

*Deedee* trust me, you have absolutely NO need to apologise. You weren't harsh, you were frank and honest, I respect that and I needed it. I have heard and logged everything you have all said. I can no longer say all that I want to say as DH has come into my account and read my posts. Shame he didn't listen to what people were actually saying in response and was instead hurt and injured by things I'd said!

My wonderful mother came to my appointment with me. I feel better for going. Came back and DH was, genuinely!, completely OBLIVIOUS to any consequences of his actions today. Looked hurt and exasperated when I told him the message his actions give not just to me but to anyone else looking in. I almost hope he does come read this

My priority at the minute is his daughter, who will be up on the weekend and over Christmas next week. I love my husband but nothing will stop me being a mother and I feel, today, that my fight is coming back. When he put me last today he put my future baby last too, and I will defend, protect and prioritise that baby with every ounce of strength I have.

So no apologies, just thanks, to you and to you all.  xx


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## CrazyHorse

So your husband is SPYING on you now?! Yes, I think you should show him this thread. If he's so eager to know what people really think, I'd love for him to hear from us as well as you. Violating your spouse's privacy like that is NOT okay. You are coming on an anonymous message board to get *support* -- it's not like you're having an affair or plotting how to cheat him out of his life savings. How are you supposed to get the support you need (which your husband is so obviously not giving you) if you can't be honest about his actions and how hurt you are by them?!

Sorry, but that REALLY pushes my buttons. Classic jackass behaviour from someone who knows, deep down, that he's not been doing right by his wife -- act all hurt and pretend that the problem is you speaking honestly about what he's done, rather than apologize for the fact that he actually DID it.  

Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn here, but you deserve better than this. Deedee is right that it's cruel for anyone to play games with a woman in her last years of own-egg fertility. Sending you lots of     and courage for the future.


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## deedee_spark

CrazyHorse said:


> Classic jackass behaviour from someone who knows, deep down, that he's not been doing right by his wife -- act all hurt and pretend that the problem is you speaking honestly about what he's done, rather than apologize for the fact that he actually DID it.


AKA gaslighting (google if you haven't heard of this term)

Glad to see you have a bit of a fighting spirit MissMayhem.

xx


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## staceysm

Hi,

I personally don't think it is a bad thing him reading what has been said.  But I certainly don't think he is a horrible monster which some of the comments seem to apply.

I think Molly has worded it perfectly and we have to realise that people handle things differently.  My husband spent 22 years in the Army and we have been together 12 years.  He has supported me through two life/death situations with my Mum and my sister and since we have had our treatment, has supported me through a breakdown.

When we first found out we needed treatment, he was very honest with me.  He was happy with just me and if I didn't want to go through treatment then he really wasn't bothered if we had children or not.  Luckily our treatments worked, but he only attended appointments he had to.  As for emotional support, well he really didn't get it.  When I miscarried our FET, I got a quick hug and life must go on comment.

He is my rock and a good husband and Dad and I wouldn't change him.  I know you said you have been depressed and hard to be with at times, so I honestly don't think it is fair for him to get all the negative responses, yes infertility is flipping hard, but we only get one life and life is for living.

Good luck and I hope that things work out for you.
X


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## Molly99

MrMayhem, if you are reading this then please do not think that we are all out to get you.  That isn't the case at all.  It's true that everyone reacts and behaves differently under what (we all freely admit) is the most emotional and volatile situation that we could possibly find ourselves in.  We're pouring out our hearts on here, it's never going to look pretty but sometimes you just need to get things out or they will eat you up.

MissMayhem, it must feel like your world is caving in.  This is just a blip lovely, you've had so many and there may be more to come but you will get through this and see a lighter and brighter day.

For me, the most important thing was to try and understand why husband was constantly doing the unfathomable.  Like your DH, my husband is a good and loving man, I couldn't and didn't want to walk out on him, though he pushed our love to the absolute limit and I said that I would so many times.  He has serious problems with emotions (whether through Aspergers or because he has issues around emotional detachment) it doesn't really matter because there isn't right or wrong.  I now know it is just who he is and that makes it so much easier to love him and to move on from some of the terrible things that have happened as a result.

I had to question absolutely everything about whether he was right for me, whether he even loved me or whether I could give up a family for him.  The right decision for me was to stay, even though time isn't on my side and money certainly isn't.  He understands that I have given huge things up for him, it isn't something that I dangle over him but I do want him to realise and appreciate.  It is a sacrifice and it hurts me enormously but he is who I love.  If he loves me as much as I know he does then he will look into options in the New Year, he knows that he has to do this and initiate it himself though.  He takes these things enormously seriously, he just has to do them in his own time, if I try to push it then he will disappear into work or just completely.

It's like we've just met in a way.  We understand each other to a depth that perhaps many will never do, it isn't all good, it's damn hard but we're on a level playing field now.  It's where we should have been when we first met but hey ho.

Sorry to waffle on about me.  I do wonder whether your DH has emotional detachment issues though.

Congratulations on going to your appointment.  That was a huge and brave step, bless your Mum for going with you.  The important thing is that you recognise that you do have options.  When things get this bad in a relationship it takes so much out of you and you genuinely can't see any positives because everything leads to hurt and fighting.  Having your SD with you may be exactly what you need to just break the cycle for a little while.  I really hope that it helps and doesn't hinder.

Take care my lovely xxx


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## deedee_spark

I never meant to imply that MissMayhems DH is a monster - he might be a very nice man. Gaslighting is a strong term, and on reflection, one I shouldn't have used. It is a term used when someone reflects something they have done wrong, onto you (the victim of what they did wrong). Gaslighting can be minor deflection of responsibility or outright abuse. The key is whether there is any remorse afterwards. I am certainly not anti-man. I am anti-emotional and physical violence against a person (male or female). 

Ultimately, MissMayhem needs to decide what is acceptable and unacceptable in her relationship. If she is happy with emotional detachment, that is great. If she is happy to be second, third place in a relationship - that is great too. If she is happy to let further time pass whilst they hesitate over having a baby, it is all good - because she has agreed to this.

But I don't think she is happy, at least not all the time. Which is why we keep giving her support: to help her find happiness - which seems to be located with a baby.

I also don't think men should be stereotyped. I worked in an office with 100s of guys. Most of them would never admit to wanting children (too busy having fun in their 20s), but very few seemed emotionally detached. My brother,  my husband, my sisters husband - none of them are emotionally detached. Ultimately though, I guess it comes down to: you can analyse someones behaviour and see a reason behind it, but you can't change it. 

So MissMayhem - look us all deciding your future for you?!  I guess only you know what you want from your relationship. You also know you want a baby. If the two merge that is the best thing ever; if they don't, there are choices. We all just want to see you happy.

xx

PS. Mr Mayhem also needs to decide what he wants. If he doesn't want a baby he needs to speak up and let his wife decide her future.


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## CrazyHorse

deedee_spark said:


> PS. Mr Mayhem also needs to decide what he wants. If he doesn't want a baby he needs to speak up and let his wife decide her future.


YES -- this times a million. When it comes to fertility treatment, you need to decide if you're in or if you're out. And if you're in, you need to engage with your partner's needs, talk through with them what they're feeling (even if you think what they're feeling is irrational, excessive, obsessive, unhealthy, what have you -- those are still their feelings), and BE THERE FOR THEM. Helping to pay the bills and showing up to provide a sperm sample doesn't cut it. If it's not important enough to you to care about whether your spouse feels supported during the process, man up and just say you don't want to do it.


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## Jes87

MissMayhem 

Massive good luck with your treatment btw, I didn't say that before. Got everything crossed for you.

I agree with people here saying your husband isn't a monster, but that's besides the point in my opinion. Counselling and therapists are there to try and fix the exact issues they are having. You don't need emotions to agree to seek help.

If he's scared he is going to have to face his fears or risk losing his wife. They are on the same team, she wants to help him and have a loving marriage, not battle him the whole time. People are there to help, not judge him and only he can take the first step. It's not fair to expect another person to carry that sort of stress on top of going through treatment


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## WolfyOne

I just thought I would put a slightly different perspective on things, so please don't shoot me.

Similar to what a couple of posters have said, not all men are heavily emotional and can find it difficult to express themselves. I am a very sensitive person, whilst my DH lets things wash over him. He is affectionate but not overly emotional. 

With each of our IUIs, I have gone alone. Reason being it is financially more beneficial for our treatment that DH works (as a subbie he does not get paid time off). The IUi itself, whilst uncomfortable, only takes around 30 mins including resting time and our clinic is local so I am happy to go alone. We would rather have the extra money to afford treatment than have DH with me for those 30 mins   

DH is very close to his mum, and parents generally have so much less time with us as they get older, so if she had a fall he would definitely rush to the hospital.

If these next IUIs don't work we are moving onto IVF. I would want DH there for the EC as it sounds more like an operation than anything!! But with the ET, I see it as similar to IUI so it wouldn't worry me 

After our recent treatment DH did not initially ask how it had gone when he got in but I know work has been stressing him out. Now I know how much DH wants children (he wanted to start earlier than I did), and things are especially complicated due to DH's NOA that we found out about earlier this year so we are having to use donor (which DH suggested). This does distance DH from the fertility treatments insofar as he does not contribute and it all kind of magically happens to him   

Men in general, unlike women, are somewhat distanced from fertility procedures in that we are the ones that have to undergo everything to do with it, we are the ones that take the drugs, the procedures, the symptom spottings, the stick peeing etc. In DH's mind it works or we move on to the next treatment, simple as that. He remains always positive, but does not show an awful lot of emotion when things go wrong. That is not because he doesn't care, but he is just not that great at processing emotions, but that enables him to stay calm and my rock. If I am upset, he just hugs me and tells me it will work out.

When we had a m/c in July, I was completely devastated whilst DH did not cry. At one point I asked him how he was so strong, but his response was that I probably deal with things better by getting my emotions out than he can. 

So I guess overall, my DH really wants children but does not get emotional about the treatments and does not attend unless I ask him to. Not because he doesn't care, but he is just a calm wash-over-me person who is always optimistic. To be honest, I much prefer him as he is than if he got as stressed and intense as I did over the treatments! We are like yin and yang  

I have no idea what your DH is like, and of course your situ is different as he has made a comment about not being sure he wants to continue with the treatments (although whether that is just the stress talking I don't know). If he has definitely made up his mind that you no longer share the same dream, then I guess that answers the question. To be honest male pride often gets in the way of agreeing to go to counselling.

I just wanted to put out there that not all guys are emotional or passionate about being involved with treatments, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't care or aren't supportive.


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## CrazyHorse

A key difference, though, Wolfy, is that you feel like your partner supports you -- he processes emotions differently, you are accepting of that, and you agree that for you his physical presence at appointments is less important to you than making sure the finances are in place for treatment. It sounds like his calm, slightly detached persona supports you by making it so that you aren't having to comfort him at a time when you need comfort yourself. I don't think MissMayhem feels supported by her partner, and what is making me personally so irritated by his behaviour is that it seems like he cares more about how he is perceived than about whether his partner is getting what she needs. I'm glad that you and your DH have a way of handling things that works for you.

Jes, I agree that this is the kind of situation that couples counseling is made for.


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## deedee_spark

I told my DH. Hope you don't mind MissMayhem - looking for the male perspective. 

He said:  "If she's been anything like you have been over the last two years, particularly the last six months, I can understand why he would turn round and say he doesn't want a child. He probably wants the pain to go away. Every month is a cycle of hope, frantic BD and distraught tears. Counselling won't take that monthly cycle away. Only not wanting a baby will make it all go away."

Just reassure you all, I am now on anti-depressants (day 11) and being a good wife again. On reflection, I was suffering major anxiety issues - my brain was completely out of sync and wouldn't switch off.  

I hope this doesn't confuse... I still think you need to work out what makes you happy in a relationship - counselling will help with this. He possibly just wanting the pain to go away...

xx


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## rmatz

I'm going to add something that might sound unsupportive, but I offer it as a way to help gain other perspectives. If you doubt my support for Ms. Mayhem, please read my other posts. I think she deserves support, truly, and do not condone the actions of her husband.

However, it is so easy for women in fertility treatments to forget their husbands are people, too and just as we want to be accepted warts and all (major depression, anxiety, mood swings, weight fluctuations), we need to really do the same for our husbands.  It's not always a male or female thing to hide away and avoid. I think I do it sometimes, too. Not with talking things out, but I avoid situations.  I have a friend right now I don't know how to deal with a situation and I need time to figure out if I am just being a moody pregnant lady or if I really have an issue, so I am not dealing with it at the moment. I don't want to say something hurtful and it end up being a mood swing.  Still, I can't be around her so I am avoiding.  Not maybe the best, but the best I can do right now.

I think most people do the best they can with the tools they have at hand. If we expect different results, we need to find new tools.

The point I want to add, that might seem controversial, is that I think sometimes men feel rejected and hurt if their wives put having a baby as the most important thing in their lives.  Heck, not just men.  My husband wants a family so badly, I was very concerned that he would divorce me if we could not get pregnant--well, at least at first.  He was against adoption until we had failed IVFs, so I was very relieved when he not only considered it but pushed for it a bit (I am not against it, but its complicated here in Germany). And when he was encouraging about donor eggs, I felt a bit better, like he would accept me even if I couldn#t provide a child.  But there were times it hurt to feel I wasn't enough for him.

Do you think it might be possible that your husband is hurt that you have put so much of your happiness in whether or not you have a baby?  I can easily see him asking 'what does that say about me?'  Maybe he feels less important than as a means to the end of getting a baby? How much pressure do you think it might be for him to know there is no way to make you happy unless you have a baby? Do you think he might give up trying?

I know it made me feel worthless when I thought my husband could not imagine a life with me without a child and it peed me off, since he had plenty of time before me to have children. He was 42 when we got together. It was hardly my fault he put it off so long.  Who wants to give all of their love to someone who makes them feel less important than a person that doesn't even exist yet or may never?

I want to be a mom more than I want anything else. I also want to know that if that never came to be, that I would find a way to find meaning in life. Otherwise, life would be a very lonely sentence. That is not healthy. I know that is probably a very unpopular thing to say here, but we have to be careful about not being so obsessed with being mothers that we give the rest of our lives and the people in it no meaning or value.  This was a hard one for me, because I saw my future without a child as possibly very empty. But it would have been up to me to find ways to fill it and I would expect my husband to do the same.  Being parents will be the most important part of our lives, but I do not expect it to be the definition of us. I also want to be a husband and wife, teachers, aunts, uncles, friends, a son and daughter. 

Is it possible your husband felt irrelevant compared to your desire to be a mother? You said you had experienced a major depression. It's very hard to be around someone who is depressed and if you feel you are the cause of their depression, how much time do you want to spend with them? How much of your life's meaning has been invested in this? How much of your relationship has been about anything other than IVF? Is it possible your husband feels like a failure in making you happy? How much energy and attention do you like to spend putting into something that makes you feel like a failure?  

IVF is not just about the women and I imagine that for the partners of the women who make their whole life's meaning wrapped up in the success or failure of each cycle, it is not easy and can make the men feel very rejected.  I mean, after all, the message is clear: you are not enough for me. I need a child.

Harsh, but true. I personally think children should be expansions of what already feels like a family, not the reason to be with someone.

I do not know you Miss Mayhem, so please, please do not think I mean everything above is just for you. It is only my thinking based on my own experiences with my husband and the self destructive nature infertility sometimes brings to us. I still think your husband should communicate better with you and what he did about the gig was very insensitive, but if he does have something like Asbergers, he deserves some consideration for that, first and foremost.  In that case, he has very little control over the way he processes emotions, but please give it some thought about how he is seeing your desperation for a child. It's also not good that he feels the need to read your posts.  Allowing our partners space to be individuals is vital in a healthy relationship. 

Maybe none of this applies to you, so forgive me if it doesn't. But if any of it does, I hope you take it as I mean it with a loving intention to help you find a way to build a bridge of mutual understanding in your relationship, because if you only want a baby in a marriage, you need to get the marriage healthier first. Or, you can be like I was prepared to be and so many other women who find happiness, know your own priority is to be a mother even if it means without a husband.  But if the marriage is as important as the baby, make sure your husband knows you feel that way, because it could be he doesn't at the moment and it is affecting his behavior.

Again, please forgive me if I have hurt more than helped. I only mean to help.


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## MissMayhem

Again I agree with you all, however contradictory that may seem!  My husband is not a monster, far from it, but nor did I think that anyone was saying that he was.  I googled 'gaslighter' as it's a term I'm not familiar with and can say confidently that he is NOT abusive, if anyone behaves aggressively when things like this happen it's me.  He does, however, deflect uncomfortable things as per the lower end of that scale.

I don't have a decision to make any more as he's made it for me.  He's leaving as we speak.  We had a blazing row after he came home from work early (using the few hours he'd booked off (on the wrong day, my fault) to have a haircut and go to see his daughter's school concert) with no intention of trying to rearrange the appointment.  When I asked if he had ANY idea why I was so upset he answered simply 'no'.  He just does not get it, he's never going to.  Apart from the obvious the thing that's eating me up the most at the minute is the fact that, even now, he will still not admit to simply not wanting a child.

I am guilty of neglecting him in that sense, I don't take offence by anyone saying it.  I have allowed myself to become completely obsessed with being a mother, or not as the case may be, and there have been times where it really has been 'life or death' for me.  That may seem dramatic for some but it's how I felt.  Even now the thought of living my life with no children is crippling, it would be the 'sentence' that you describe, there is no moving away from that for me, because if I did make the decision to prioritise him it would be like dying inside because there would never be any support or acknowledgement forthcoming.

Thank you, again, for all your support, it has been appreciated.


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## rmatz

Oh, Ms. Mayhem,

I am so sorry.  How hard it must be for you.  All of my last post was only offering another side of the often conflicting sides of my own feelings in similar situations. Even so, I know what you mean by life and death in a way.  All of my ideas are to fight that feeling in myself when I had it, cause I got in a really, really dark place imagining my life without children. And, I was there, imagining it so often: as I planned to leave my husband for whom I had already given up my country and career and sometimes even my language--as six rounds of fertlitly treatment, three of which were IVF all failed. As we had no money to move forward, or so it seemed.  I was in that place, imagining my old age after my husband had died. So, I get it.

It can change, though. Maybe not for you in the way it did for me, but there was a previous poster on here who put in that so many of the mothers on the single parenting boards were once in your position, but now have thier hearts desire--children without the complications of a husband (trust me that sounds lovely to me sometimes!)

I think you should be proud of how honest you are being with yourself. Continuing that brave, honest, self assesment will one day lead to healing, I hope and believe.  You will be fine. And you may very well one day be a mother. It just doesn't always happen when we think it should.

Also, it may seem like the end of the world that your husband is leaving right now, but it's not over until its over.  In January, my husband and I needed for him to be out of the house. He was away for ten days and it was very necessary.  I hope this time leads to the healthiest option for you both. Perhaps you may consider donor eggs and he may calm down to know what he really feels in the time apart.  This time could either remind you both of what you mean to each other---or offer you freedom from the burden of the other's choices.

Please know we are here for you. You are not alone, or at least as alone as you feel.  And please seek medical help if you feel you need it. You are under so much pressure. There is no shame in needing help from time to time---especially since the treatments often put your body chemicals out of balance, worsening depression.


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## staceysm

Hi,

I am so Sorry you find yourself in this position.  Sadly infertility does make or break relationships.  You say he doesn't want a baby with you, but do you use contraception?  If not and you have unexplained then that doesn't prove to me that he doesn't want a baby with you.  It's the fertility treatments to get the baby which are the problem.

It's hard to sum up whole relationships from a few posts on here, so please feel free to correct me.

Firstly I think your last comment really struck a chord with me.  I think that when that biological clocks ticks, there is nothing apart from having a baby that can make it stop ticking.  I presume that your husband already having a child from a failed relationship is making him perhaps put the brakes on?  Sorry if this offends, but I don't blame him.  If your marriage really isn't good, then a baby won't fix it.  It will fix you, but there are sadly marriage break ups on my birth board already and some weeks after the babies where born.

Also do you 100% want your husbands baby or just a baby?  Do you and your husband have fun together?  Go out?  Holidays?  A friend once told me that coming home to a miserable, unhappy wife day after day was unbearable, so as hard as it was I made a vow to myself, that I would not let infertility destroy what we had.  We still lived.  I cried briefly when AF showed up and then had a glass of wine.  Dusted myself down and tomorrow was a new day.  Obviously not everyone can be like this.

You have some time to think now about what you want.  There is always the single route and I know that the women on there don't regret their decisions and I 100% take my hat of to them.

Big, big hugs.
X


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## CrazyHorse

Oh, MissMayhem....   I don't know you and MrMayhem, so I don't know if this is a good or bad thing in the long run, but I hope that this will be a step towards positive change, whether it's with you pursuing your dreams on your own, or with you and your husband reevaluating your marriage and making it a better place. Sending you lots of good wishes.


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## MissMayhem

Thanks again everyone. Your thoughts are helping me take a step back even from myself, which can only be a good thing I think when you're as entrenched in the quagmire that I've been in for too long.

One thing that strikes me when anyone is being honest, myself to others included, is how we all apologise in advance before sharing our honest opinions. It says a lot about how sensitive the subject is and how we worry at how our comments may be perceived. On that note a big shout out to *jes87* as in one of my comments I mentioned the amazing support I get from the women here. I missed you out! Not intentionally, not because I'm sexist, but just because am not used to hearing from men very often here, but those I have heard from have been fabulous. So, thank you and gooduck to you and the mother of your future child too.  everything crossed that you get there soon.

*staceyms* I agree with you. Coming home to someone miserable is hard. I tell DH that I can't begin to imagine how hard it is for him since I've been off work as he has to go out and earn and then come home to me. We had a period before where he was severely depressed too after losing his job and us having to stay with my parents after we had to leave our home due to structural problems. It was hard work coming home to him and even after we had our own place he didn't even speak for days as he was so low. It was frightening. And exhausting. And, having no idea of how crippling depression could be I was no help to him at all as I fought to survive myself. Probably very similar for him now. I have pulled myself up a bit lately but agree that he's probably afraid I'll go back there.

If I was any younger I would be with him in wanting to take a break and sort ourselves. I know a baby won't fix a marriage but, as you said, it will fix me. And I do genuinely believe that a big part of why I have gotten as bad as I did, again, goes back to being unsupported.

As regards to fun things we have very little. His daughter is with us weekends and the times where she isn't, we do pretty much nothing. A lot of the time that is because of money and that has got even worse since I had to spend my treatment money on a private op. But also, a lot of the time is because he never wants to do anything. If we go out with friends he doesn't like drinking, if we go to visit he doesn't like that some of them smoke, if we go to the cinema (rarely without SD!) he is reluctant unless it's a genre of film that he likes, if I want to walk along the beach it's too cold/wet/busy. He is _only_ intererested in doing things he can do alone, gym/drums etc.

I love my husband and don't want people to think I'm slating him as that's not my purpose. My purpose was to get some objectivity to help me see if I am being unreasonable. In some ways I am but in expecting a bit of support from him I don't think I am. Feeling that I am last on his list all the time is damaging me and that's not good. If he had told his father/brother that they would have to rush to his mother or gone but come back in time to be there for our appointment we would not have had this issue. I'm demanding and spoilt at times but am not a complete b*tch and, regardless of how his mother has been to us, and to him, over the past few years, I would have been there for her myself if nobody else could go.

Am just waiting to see what happens when he comes home today and can't help thinking about my poor SD, if anyone doesn't deserve this mess it's her.

Am sorry to burden you all, you've got enough of your own stuff to be getting on with. Good luck to you all and *rmatz* good luck with the scan!  Love to you all.xxx


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## deedee_spark

My heart goes out to you MissMayhem. 
This post has reminded me of the dragon I have turned into because of IF. In the summer, I said to my mum that I saw no point in living if I didn't have a family. Ouch (I mean some people have that choice taken away   ). And then my forever husband confirmed my nightmare status - I absolutely don't want to do anything to lose him. I guess it is really hard on relationships and it is very hard on us all, especially to maintain perspective. Funny thing it, I think most people, with funding, flexibility, research, can get there in the end - it's just a horrendous journey.

I hope you manage to sort more in more pleasant direction, whatever that direction will be. I wish you all the best, and I hope you have a happier weekend than you had week.

x


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## staceysm

Hi,

You are not burdening anyone.  You are here for support and advice and that is what we are doing.  As you know, people do have different opinions, but that isn't a bad thing.  I try to be diplomatic and see both sides of the story.  But there is no right or wrong.

It seems to me that there is still love there between you both and you seem to care greatly for your SD.

I really hope you can have a good talk about things and move forward together.

X


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## rmatz

I second that you are not a burden at all.  You are doing your best and trying and you should not be too hard on yourself.  Even the views such as I gave are not meant to accuse you, but to shift perspective. Even if what you see from the different angle isn't true or doesn't fit in your situation, the act of the shift itself can bring some relief and maybe send you on around to view all your own that helps.  

Though I feel the same way as you, I wish for us women that we didn't think we need a baby to fix us. Just as I wish when we are lonely, we don't feel that a man will complete us. I wish that because I fear for the health of those of us who do not get what we feel will fix us...It reminds me of my own struggles with sometimes severe anxiety.  Often my attacks would come in the middle of the night when there was absolutely no one to call. I NEEDED someone so badly.  However, there was no one. It was either be destroyed or learn how not to need, how to find ways to calm myself down, to take care of myself.  So much of getting my life to a more stable level has been about learning how not to need others. It sounds lonely and maybe sometimes I take it to that place, but for the most part it has been freeing.  That does not mean that I don't need friends or want them or welcome love in my life, but it means I have to be okay without it if it isn't there. I have to. What is the alternative otherwise?  I have to be a complete person on my own and when I am, I can be a better participant in all of my relationships.  That is my goal. I have to admit. I am still needy. I am still lonely from time to time and maybe still broken, but the most loving thing I can do for those I love is not need them to fix me.  I can suck a person dry sometimes.

The truth is for most people, either you will be okay or you won't. Guess what? Most people are okay in the end.  Maybe not fully healthy, but most people find a way to cope.  My way is anytime I feel I need something or someone so much my whole mental health is dependent on it, I take a step back and try to find more balance.  Because, my dear Miss Mayhem, you may feel broken and a baby may be your destiny and make you happier than anything else in this world, but you can be fixed without one. Believing that that is the only thing that can fix you is not only dangerous, but I think not true.  You can fix you.  I promise you can.  You just have to believe it.

Now, I would also like to say that if you have unexplained infertility, there is still hope for a natural pregnancy.  I had had six rounds of fertility treatment, the last three were failed IVF.  We actually only tried on ovulation day to not feel guilty for not trying.  I was 39.5 years old with poor quality eggs and a shrinking egg reserve.  You are not much older than I am, so failed IVFs (as long as there is no apparent reason for them) do not necessarily mean all hope is lost.  In fact, I think it was a combination of the chemical pregnancies (my body learned how to get pregnant but needed the right egg) and then trying naturally that helped. My eggs were not manipulated by drugs and so maybe were stronger?  I also cut out sugar and lost more than 20 lbs.  My endocrinologist said that was probably the key.  

Not that it is easy or always possible, but it is also not impossible, if you and your husband get on the same page.  

Your feelings are very valid and on the most part you have been fair, just maybe its not fair to decide that you know what your husband wants even when he says its not true. I mean, it's basically calling him a liar when he says it isn't that he doesn't want kids.  Try not to put words in his mouth.  It's back to the pain you can cause yourself by thinking you know what he is 'really' thinking, even if he is saying to you directly it is not true.

So, to reiterate: you are not a burden, you seem like a good person who has been through hell. You have spent a lot of time sacrificing and putting others first and its only fair to wish you were put first for a while. Again, do not be too hard on yourself, but please try to find a way to not need anyone else to put you first. You put you first.  Have you heard the song 'The One Who Loves You the Most' by Brett Dennen'?  At the end it says, 'See, when you forgive your imperfections
And you've auctioned all your clothes
And look to see your true reflection
You will be the one who loves you the most'  

I wish for you as much love as you've given so freely. I wish for you the family of your dreams. I wish for you a child to hold in its infancy and to hold you in your old age.  But, mostly, Miss Mayhem, I wish you learn to be the one who loves you the most and then all that I wish for you will just be blessings not needs.


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## rmatz

Oh, and thank you so much for your good wishes for Monday. I am my own worst enemy on that, too. I am freaking out with my diabetes managment and suffering severe anxiety as a result, so not sleeping.  So, good wishes are more than welcome!

That said, my own issues do not mean you are a burden to me. On the contrary, I care very much that you feel better and hope that my direct approach is taken with the kindness I mean it.  I would not be here with you if I didn't want to be and I doubt anyone here would be either. We all come here for you because we want to.  Now, if my directness has caused you any pain or harm, please be as direct and say so and I will not continue.  As your best interests are most important.


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## MissMayhem

Thank you all again girls. Each and every one of you has helped more than you will ever know. I have listened, considered and removed myself a bit because of your thoughts. That has enabled me to speak to DH calmly, an approach that always works better with him. Instead of being stuck in the 'game' this time I have taken responsibility for my part but have pointed out to DH his habit of passive-aggressively turning situations back on me and making me feel guilty for something I haven't done

Even before I spoke to him today I felt that, either way, I am going to be ok. I will be a mother one way or another. *rmatz* you speak eloquently and objectively, always. You have said nothing tomoffend me. I value honestly always have, always will. As with all of us there are times when the truth can be uncomfortable, but nobody here has made me feel that way. I felt exactly the same about not being here, selfish some may say but when those feelings overwhelm you feel powerless to them. Until you properly grieve and start to heal, and that takes time. You made me cry with those lyrics, in a good way, very powerful. 

I don't know what he will decide, but I know I will be ok and, hopefully, even if things don't work for us, together we can make sure SD is ok too.

Love and   to you all, especially my lovely *molly*, will catch up soon. Thank you all for your support and wisdom. xx


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## MissMayhem

Hey guys, just a shout out to you to thank you all again for your support and to wish you all a lovely Christmas. Am hanging in here.....just! Have a good one and take care.  xxx


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## CrazyHorse

Big hugs to you, MissMayhem.    I hope you and your DH have a good Christmas together, and that the new year brings you peace, understanding, and mutual support as a couple.


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