# Dilemma re: thawing and embryo storage



## M2M (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm going to try to explain our dilemma as simply as possible, but it is a bit complicated as there are a couple of different possible decisions and several potential outcomes.  I will also post this in the Donor Sperm/Eggs forum as obviously my situation is specific to donor sperm - I wouldn't be having this dilemma if we were using husband/partner sperm. 

*Summary* 
We have 4 frosties. 2 of them were very good blasts and 2 were "borderline" 16-cell embryos.
As we used donor sperm, we have a 6-month "pregnancy slot". We have until the beginning of December for me to get pregnant with these frosties, otherwise any remaining ones will be destroyed.
If I get pregnant with any of these frosties, we will be allowed to keep any remaining frosties from the same cycle / same donor in storage indefinitely, for sibling use.
Our clinic does not offer re-freezing.
We are paying privately. A fresh cycle costs us £4,000 and a FET cycle £1,000.
I am currently about 1 week away from thaw and ET of these frosties and need to make a decision.
 We signed the consent forms a week ago to state that we want to thaw all 4 embryos and transfer the best 2, rather than thaw 2 and see how they are, then thaw another 1 or 2 if necessary. However this decision has not been sitting right with me since then and it even had me in tears today so I need some advice. 

Here are our options and the potential outcomes.

Decision 1: Thaw 4 embryos and transfer the best 2

*Outcome 1a:* No embryos survive and the cycle is cancelled
*Outcome 1b:* 1 or 2 embryos survive and I have those 1 or 2 transferred - BFP
*Outcome 1c:* 1 or 2 embryos survive and I have those 1 or 2 transferred - BFN
*Outcome 1d:* 3 or 4 embryos survive and I have the 2 best ones transferred - BFP (lose 1 or 2 potential future sibling embryos which we would've been allowed to keep had we only thawed 2 or 3)
*Outcome 1e:* 3 or 4 embryos survive and I have the 2 best ones transferred - BFN (lose 1 or 2 embryos which may have resulted in a pregnancy)

Decision 2: Thaw 2 embryos and see if they're okay - if not, thaw another 1 or 2

*Outcome 2a:* All embryos end up being thawed but none survive and the cycle is cancelled
*Outcome 2b:* All embryos are thawed but only 1 survives and I have that 1 transferred - BFP
*Outcome 2c:* All embryos are thawed but only 1 survives and I have that 1 transferred - BFN
*Outcome 2d:* All embryos are thawed but only 2 survive and I have those 2 transferred - BFP
*Outcome 2e:* All embryos are thawed but only 2 survive and I have those 2 transferred - BFN
*Outcome 2f:* 2 or 3 embryos are thawed and 2 are okay so I have those 2 transferred - BFP (1 or 2 frosties still left in the freezer for a future attempt at FET for a sibling)
*Outcome 2g:* 2 or 3 embryos are thawed and 2 are okay so I have those 2 transferred - BFN (a potential 1 or 2 "second attempt at FET" embryos will be destroyed in December because I won't have time for another FET before my "pregnancy slot" runs out AND these may be my best two blasts... this is possibly my biggest fear  )

I hope this makes sense and that I haven't made it too confusing. There are just so many potential outcomes that it's messing with my heart, my head and my emotions. I'm just not sure what is the best thing to do!

Can anyone offer any words of wisdom?


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## Ermitrude (May 17, 2010)

For me i'd go with the option of thawing the least amount of embies possible with a view to keeping the balance for a chance at a sibling.

No doubt you're clinic will start with your two blasts first and hopefully one of them will result in a bfp.  Still giving you the chance to use the other frosties at a later stage.

Its a very difficult place to be and I never knew that there was a 'life span' attached to embryos with donor components.  As I said i'd go with the option that potentially gives me the best chance of 2 pregnancies.

The very best of luck to you both.

Ermi


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## laurenelhall (Jan 3, 2007)

Hi M2M,

I must admit i agree with ermitrude. As you have just as much chance getting a BFP with two embies and have 2 saved for siblings than if you defrost all and just use the best two. Would they not defrost the blasts first anyway? see if you can reqeust this so you know your best embies are being replaced and should this be sucessfull (fingers crossed it will be) you have a possible brother or sister embies to use in the future. Would you not be able to start straight away on your next FET after this cycle should it not be sucessful? I obviously dont know your situation going private as i am lucky having mine on NHS but my hospital said i can do FET again straight away should this one fail. So should you be able to you may just be able to squeeze one in should you need it ( hopefully you wont and you will get you lovely BFP). 

You can only choose the best option for you so follow your heart and that way you will make the right decision. Good luck and hope all goes well when you make your choice.

Love Lauren xxx

PS. My best friend and her partner are going through IUI soon with a donor sperm, would it be ok to pass on your username so they can chat with you as i feel you probably will be able to help them more than me. I told them all about this site and the help it has given me so they plan to register so they can understand everything alot more. Thanks x


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## Me and Her (Jan 21, 2010)

Hi ,

sorry you are having to make such a difficult decision - I can understand why you are so confused! I would probably go for defrosting the best 2 first of all and then another 1 or 2 if the first don't thaw properly. I read somewhere that the thaw rate is 70%+ so you should hopefully get 1 or two out of the first two.

However, you said your greatest fear was that you may get a BFN from these first 2 and then the others will be destroyed. As the others have said - is there no way you could fit in another cycle before december - would they let you do FET with your natural cycle maybe? If the clinic say you defo couldn't fit one in and this is going to really stress you out the whole way through the cycle then maybe you are better to put all your eggs in this cycle's basket as it were, and feel more relaxed. You have to do what makes you feel most comfortable as this is stressful enough as it is!

Sorry that probably isn't much help but its the best I can come up with. I hope you find a decision that you are both happy with and you can relax for the ET. Its horrible how much more pressure is put on everything when there is so much money at stake.

xx


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## M2M (Sep 16, 2009)

Thank you for your replies, ladies. It's much appreciated.   Sometimes getting other people's views on these difficult decisions is so helpful as other people may be able to see things from a different perspective.

I should've probably mentioned in my original post that the embryologist at the time did say "We'll have no way of knowing at the time of thaw which are the good blasts and which are the borderline ones so we'll freeze them all together" and in my post-ET medicated stupor (had sedation for ET) and buoyed on by positivity about my fresh cycle working, which it sadly didn't, I didn't even think to ask them whether they could freeze them separately and label them as "good" and "borderline".   

My biggest fear is that they will thaw the two which are "borderline" and they won't stick - then we will end up with a BFN and the prospect of destroying two excellent top grade blasts for no reason other than to comply with HFEA rules. That upsets me more than I can put into words.   At the same time, I think all 4 of the frosties have the potential to become babies and I want to give them a chance, however silly that may sound.

As for fitting in another cycle before early December, the actual ET has to take place within that six months, which would mean starting with my first AF after this cycle if it was a BFN... as I started with the second AF last time and it's been a full three months between my ETs which would be too long. My clinic were insistent last time that I couldn't start again immediately and needed to wait for two AFs, not just the one. Maybe it would be different with a frozen cycle.   Who knows. I can't do natural FET as I don't ovulate and my cycle is very irregular (have needed to be on the pill just to regulate my cycles for the past two treatments).

Arghhhhhhh such a dilemma!


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## Me and Her (Jan 21, 2010)

Not an easy choice! I have run out of words of wisdom but am sending lots of          and                        

xx


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## hjanea (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi, I think I'd check with your clinic about the possibilty of an another FET straight after this one to see if it is a viable option and then just defrost 2 if there is.
Is there any way way that if there isn't enough time that your partner could be the one having the FET instead? Sorry if this is completely out of the question, it just seemed like a logical solution but doesn't take your emotions and desire to be pg into account.
Helen.xxx


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## laurenelhall (Jan 3, 2007)

My hospital says i need 2 af's before going for fet/fresh cycle after a fresh cycle but when it is fet i can start straight after so i would check on the fet rules as i think the reason we have to wait after fresh cycle is due to egg collection and stress on ovaries where as there isnt any stress on our ovaries for FET. Hope you work it out and you can get either a BFP this time and you get 2 fets allowed just in case xxxx


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## M2M (Sep 16, 2009)

Thank you all for your replies.   I truly appreciate it.

We will definitely check whether there would be a chance for another FET straight away if we get a BFN on this cycle. We'll also double check that there's no room for movement with the dates (e.g. if I were to have another cycle, could they give us an extra couple of weeks over the six month rule). We'll also ask about whether they labelled the embryos (which I am 99% sure they didn't).

Thank you again.


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## livity k (May 19, 2009)

Just to say I had two FET's last year in early sept and mid nov, you don't have to wait so long between FET's - esp i think if you do natural cycle, medicated takes a bit  longer- not the waiting but the down regging, 

We only thawed two embryos each time and they all defrosted fine, as did the final one that I got pregnant with this May, Our clinic uses vitrification which does have a higher successful thaw rate, but even if they are frozen using the older method I think they have an over 70 % chance of good defrost, Can they defrost 2 and if not good defrost the other two, ideallly you could pair one good and one borderline togeher, 

I do think you should question your clinics freezing " all together" policy- seems ludicrous- who does that help? I'm sure our clinic labelled them and their quality at time of freezing, 

A further thought, if they froze them all together do you have the option of unfreezing in 2's 

Hope this is helpful,

Good luck

Livity K


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## M2M (Sep 16, 2009)

I can't do natural cycle as I don't ovulate and have an irregular cycle.   But I will ask about squeezing in another medicated cycle after this one if it doesn't work. We were told there was a 75% success rate for the thaw so I am expecting to lose at least one, hopefully no more than two.   

I am not entirely sure that we have the option of unfreezing them in twos, come to think of it. If not then this entire discussion was pointless and the choice is out of our hands anyway - maybe that would be better - either way we will find out at 3pm today.   Feeling nervous already, not just about the discussion/decision but about my scan!


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## livity k (May 19, 2009)

I also had medicated as have v irregular cycles, 

Good luck for this afternoon, 

Livity K


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## welshginge (Jul 12, 2009)

M2M - so sorry you re having a tough time.     hope everything works out for you both! xx


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## Ermitrude (May 17, 2010)

Best of luck for your scan to today M2M and i really hope that your clinic can give you some options.

I had 2 blasts transferred yesterday, only had 2 frozen and both survived the thaw really well - so I hope that might give you some confidence in yours thawing well too


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## M2M (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks girls.  I appreciate all your advice!

Good news. My lining has gone from 2.5mm to 9.5mm so the patches are doing the trick! They're scanning me again on Monday, with a view to the thaw and ET being on Friday. So not as soon as they implied last time, but I don't mind at all.

I asked the nurse if I could ask some questions about the thawing, and she went to get one of the embryologists to come in and chat to us, who was absolutely lovely. She explained that the six-month rule for donor gametes is not set in stone, and if I were booked to come in for another cycle within that time period, the embryos would be kept. She said it's more to dissuade people from waiting years in between treatments and potentially stopping another couple from using that donor. So that's good news!

My notes said that all of my embryos were actually blasts at freezing, and one was an early blast, but the others were good. So I think the others must've progressed after we left the clinic on the day of ET last time. So one of them might not be as good as the other three. They would be happy to "thaw conservatively" and see how two thaw, then phone us to give us an update and ask us to make a decision about whether to thaw the rest, depending on the quality.

However, if the cycle is negative, we may have backup embryos to use and we would be able to use them, so I was worrying about nothing with that. It's just that the paperwork states the embryos MUST be used by 12/12/2010 and if not used the clinic will destroy them. Maybe their paperwork needs to be a bit clearer.  I am relieved about that.

It does mean that we could potentially use the two "worst" quality embryos this time around but I know from reading stories on FF that seemingly poor embryos can and do result in babies, so I'm not going to worry too much about that. My main concern was that we would do that and end up throwing away the two "best" quality ones - but that won't be the case.

Our consent forms have been amended and I am feeling quite happy for the first time all week.  This time next week I will hopefully be PUPO.    Trying to think positively now!

Thank you again for your advice, opinions and stories!


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## Ermitrude (May 17, 2010)

That's great news M2M and i'm so glad that the clinic were able to clarify a number issues for you.  All going well you'll have your two on board and then another 2 for use in the future.  At the very least you'll get another fet in.

Great lining too btw  .  Fingers crossed for transfer next week.


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## hjanea (Feb 17, 2010)

Thats great news!! Good luck for next week!
H.xxx


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## livity k (May 19, 2009)

So glad clinic were helpful and also that your embies were overall better than you thought! 

Good luck with everything

Livity


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## Me and Her (Jan 21, 2010)

Great news M2M - I'm really pleased for you!   

El.xx


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