# Catholic ladies?



## skybluesarah

Ladies,

For those of you who are Catholic, but have taken/are taking the option of assisted reproduction, how have your priest and other members of your church reacted? It's a subject that is close to my heart, and I know the church's teachings on this aren't well-known.  

Although I know I have made the right decision for me personally about not using assisted reproduction, I find it incredibly hard to know how to respond to anyone (especially other Catholics) who has used assisted reproduction.  Of course I want to be supportive, but then sometimes I feel like I'm being hypocritical by doing that.  And of course there's a part of me that's a teeny bit jealous!

I really have no clue how to deal with this without getting preachy or resentful.  Help!!


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## DiamondDiva

Hi Sarah,


Im not a full catholic yet as im going through the RCIA program just now, but this is also something im struggling with, my friends in the RCIA know about our history with ICSI but not the DIUI's, and they commented on what an amazing this it was but that was it, i have yet to discuss it with our priest, we were considering doing another ISCI after the summer but now we are not too sure about it, my DH has been asked to join the RCIA team so i'll get him to speak to our priest about it sometime.


Best of luck with whatever you decide.


x Debs x


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## skybluesarah

Thanks guys.  This is so hard.  I'm not going to change my mind about what treatment we go through, but on bad days it just feels so frustrating.  The Mcanns thing did make me think..and I totally agree...that however a child is conceived, once it is conceived, it is as much God's as any other child.  So although the Pope will never sanction assisted reproduction, he can show God's love for any child.

The reasons for the church's opposition do partially involve discarding of embryos etc, but there's some other stuff too.  For obvious reasons don't really want to discuss it here (I'm conscious of falling into the "preachy" trap!) but am happy to discuss offline if anyone has any questions.  I've sadly become a bit of a geek about these things.

What is it about infertility that can turn you into a seething mass of resentment?! I used to be quite normal once you know!


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## angel1888

We're a practising catholic family and have conceived two children using ICSI and then a FET.  My parish has been very supportive.  I guess I am very lucky...   The people who are in the church who know and care about us saw how much we suffered and were just so pleased when our dreams came true.  Our parish priest actually made us stand up at the end of mass to welcome our son just after he was born.  As far as I am aware we have not broken any rules to date by conceiving our children in the way we have.  Now if we were to discard embryos then I guess that is a different matter.  

A xx


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## skybluesarah

Hi Angel,

Congratulations on your pregnancy! How wonderful to have two success stories!

xx


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## angel1888

Many thanks for your congratulations.  It really does depend on your own conscience.  The most important thing is that you have peace about the decision you have made.  I am at peace with our decision, although I realise that as I am human, I may have got it wrong.  All any of us can do is pray for God's loving guidance and try to do the best we can.

Angela  x


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## skybluesarah

Wise words Angel, thank you!


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## Bernie76

Hi, just read your posts and thought I would join in if that's ok? Myself and DH are catholics and we are due to start our first ivf cycle in the next few weeks. We are concerned about the discarding of embryos and have spoken to the nurse about it. She says that we can reduce the amount of eggs that we wish to be fertilised so looks like this is the route we will take. We do know, however that this will reduce our chances of success as she said that due to my age and my AMH result, it is  likely that the number of my eggs i produce will be in the teens. I want us to do the right thing and be responsible but I also really want us to be successful with ivf. It's so difficult. We have not spoken to our parish priest. xx


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## skybluesarah

Hi Frances, and welcome!
It sounds like you've had some really difficult things to think about.  I'll be praying for a happy outcome for you.


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## Kitty31

Hi

I am Catholic.  I felt that I wanted to ask the Churches views on IVF and spoke to the Parish Priest as I had thought this was frowned upon.  He was extremely supportive and encouraged me to go for the treatment and said the fact that we needed help did not come into it.  We actually needed Donor Egg IVF, this part I did not expand on, he's an old priest and I didn't really want to get into the mechanics of DE, I don't know if this would have made a difference to his response, personally, I don't think so.  

As for left over embryo's, what about donating them to a couple that need both Donor Egg and Donor Sperm?

Kitty


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## Bernie76

Thanks so much for your replies Ladies. We have thought about speaking to our priest but I'm a bit apprehensive to be honest. I Feel that he will probably just re-inforce what we already are aware of...then again...not all priests are the same with their advice. We have about 4 weeks or so to think about it before we reach our first egg retrieval stage so still have time to speak with a priest if we decide to do so. I'll keep in touch.   to you all xx


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## Klingon Princess

"I am a practicing catholic as well although DH is not.  Can i join you here?"


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## Dibley

Just wanted to say   to frances, kitty & Kehlan 

Lovely to see you all on this thread  

Dibley x


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## Maybemummy

Hi ladies mind if I join you on this thread?  

We are catholics too we have had two full IVF cycles .... sadly I think this latest one has failed although the test day is Friday.  We have expressed our concerns to the clinics we have used and have never discarded.  We have 5 frosties and plan to try with them all.

Siobhan x


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## pipgirl

Dear all.

I hope these comment will not offend anyone, as i think it is a sad thing that people's hopes of a family should be affected by worries about weather priests will approve.

I was brought up a catholic but although i attend occasionally i cannot say my heart is really in it as i am gay and think the churches teaching on that a a 'bad lifestyle choice' is actually immoral. 

Most Catholics i know try to live good lives and take comfort from the community of church but put themselves and their famillies happiness first, taking whats good fronm the church and leaving what they do not agree with.
I understand the benefit of belonging to a church and having a focused way to think about and communicate with god but what you have to remember people is this is a set of religious practices and statutes drawn up by a group of men hundreds of years after the death of jesus. These statutes all conflicted as to how to worship, what was right and wrong and how people should live their lives until the nicean accord. At this and many other points in history the church split due to differing opinions and this is why we have many christian denominations.

The Catholic church once allowed priests to marry and have concubines (14th Century) and it changed the rules on that later...today the church is likley to re-consider its position on the use of birth control which does not destroy an embryo (ie condoms) therefore it is sensible to look at it this way.

The rules are made and changed by celibate men in a vaccum city state and they base those rules on the interpretations of writings from conflicting sources in the bible. They also take into account the laws of states and social change in ammending statutes. Otherwise you might get a radical pope bringing back stoning as a punishment for blashemy and allowing polygamous marriage to be rienstated! So therefore the rules on ivf will change...maybe not now, but in the years to come. 
Good and kind people should not suffer because an intervention technique is not approved of or not fully clarified.

If you have a debilitating illness that can be alliviated by surgical intervention should you refuse because it is your 'lot' and gods will? No priest would advise that..if IF makes you and others around you unhappy and can be treated then it should be. Surely the love a family has for a child is a gift to god?

Sorry for the essay, i just hate to think of someones ttc journey being harder than it needs to be!

P.


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## skybluesarah

Hi Siobhan, I hope it's good news for you. 

Hi Pipgirl .  Your views are shared by many I know (not me, but then I'm very stubborn!).  I think it's nice that we can all help each other regardless of views.  We are after all each one of us children of God.


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## Klingon Princess

Pipgirl's post made me smile because it reminded me of a conversation with one of the nuns at my old parish.  my mother and I were friendly with them (still are, actually) and we went back to have dinner with them.

I was pretty upset at the time because the new pope had just made a speech stating categorically that the church was against ALL types of fertility treatment.  the nun, who is quite elderly and quite old fashioned,although obviously not a much so as I had thought) said to me, "Well, the pope's a man. what would he know!"

Kehlan


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## Ciara A

Hi to all the Catholic Ladies.......nice to read all the views and opinions.  This is something that myself and DH have thought alot about as we need donor sperm.............Hubbys first marriage broke up because of the donor sperm issue so its been very long haul for him but anyway a bit about me.............

I am catholic too and coming from a very devout family living in Ireland, I can tell you it was hard to know where to begin when I was telling my parents about needing Donor Sperm..........but actually they took it very well.........they told me that they had had problems conceiving me and my sisters - basically they got married in 1971 and then I didnt come along until 3 1/2 years later........they told me that they had been trying to get pregnant from day 1 and that they both went for tests (back in the early 70s this was a big DEAL in Ireland!!) and it turned out that my dad had a blockage and they did an operation to fix it........they got pregnant the first month after he had that little operation and along came me! so they told me this story for the first time when we were telling them about needing donor sperm and I knew nothing about it!! It made me feel good that they understand a bit of what we are going through.

I was wondering how my mam especially would take the news about the donor issue and she has been great about it - she even has asked the parish priest to pray for us as well and when we were at home in Dublin at Easter he asked me how we were getting on and I got all embarrassed!! 

Well I guess what I am saying is that its up to the individual person how they feel about the Fertility treatment in relation to their faith etc and like another poster said God loves us all no matter what and although most people wouldnt have thought it possible years ago even a devoutly catholic country like Ireland can move with the times.................

Keep the Faith ladies!

X


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## DiamondDiva

Hi Girls,


I can now formally join you as i am now officially a Catholic Lady  , i made my 1st Communion and Confirmation a few weeks ago at Easter,  My DH has always had his faith but i have only in the last few years found mine, i have to say that i was welcomed into the church in a very special ceremony at the Easter Vigil and i was made to feel so welcome by the whole congregation and it meant t much to me and my family.

Ciara - Friends of ours had ICSI a few times at at Dublin hospital.  Infact we are hoping to move to Donegal in a few years.

Frances - Would you not want to use your Embies yourselves in the future?  


Looking forward to getting to know everyone and chatting.

xDebsx


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## DiamondDiva

Sades - One of the ladies who takes my RCIA class has had her marriage annulled too, she had it done a long time ago, i wasnt aware you could have your marriage annuled if you had kids but she has 4 and they did it no problem, she also told me that because my mum and dad divorced over 22 years ago (my mum is catholic) if she went to confession she could take communion too as she hasnt lived with anyone since my dad left her, i never knew that and neither did she as we both thought that she couldnt take it any more, it was a lovely surprise to her.


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## skybluesarah

Just popped on to say hello.  Had hysteroscopy and polyp removal yesterday, so feeling sleepy and sore today!

Congrats Debs on communion and confirmation, and hello to all.  When I'm feeling more awake I will be back on!


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## irisheyes

Hi girls- a little about me and then a question if I may.

I was brought up very Catholic ,from doing the rosary in the home to going to Mass every day in Lent. Then when I was 21 my oldest brother was murdered and i really lost my faith.A few years later (age 25) I met my dh and he had a dd age 4 and half from a previous relationship- he was Catholic,she wasn't. His dd was being brought up Catholic. 

We got engaged when dd was nearly 7 and married when she was 8.I went to Mass again pretty regularly since when she was age 6 up to age 12.We had had a lot of hassle from her birth mum who saw her when it suited and finally at 11 moved abroad for a few years but returned to wreak havoc -still ongoing.

Anyway, we wanted a sibling for her immediately as she lived with us full time and after 18 mths finally went for tests and a laperoscopy,no problems. We were told to sit tight and put on the private waiting list for ivf. It was a big decision and we said we would think about it.Finally in 2003 we went private and were told that we could do iui which was a good option before ivf as there didnt seem to be any problems with us.I said if my dh did iui then that was a compromise,thinking it would work of course. It didnt  
Dh refused to do ivf,saying he had issues with left over embryos- I thought he was being selfish as he already had a dd (outside of marriage) and my views on life were different especially since my brother had missed out on life and I wanted to be a mother whatever it took. I fell apart and after this and then life intervened when his dd's mother started causing problems and we had to put our energy into her.I didnt attend Mass much either anymore but did do novenas myself to get pg!

That was 2006 and I am slowly re-building my life without my own children. I still have bad periods and I still sometimes struggle with dh's decision. Has anyone else experienced this That is where 2 people are not singing from the same hymn sheet??  I have yet to return to Church as a regular- I do go in to pray sometimes.

Thanx, sorry this is so long!!! xx


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## skybluesarah

Hi irisheyes.  It sounds like you have had a really hard time.  No wonder you have struggled with your faith.  I am lucky in that my hubby and I both wanted to follow the church's teaching to the letter and not have IVF.  That's not to say it's been easy though...it's hard not doing something you think might give you the thing you want more than anything in the world.  So it must be even harder for you when you want it and he doesn't.

I don't have any words of advice, I'm sorry.  I just wanted to reassure you we are here to listen...and God's there too, even if you don't feel like going back to church just yet.  

Have you tried Life FertilityCare?  They have treated me, and they've been ace.


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## craftyclara

-debs- said:


> if she went to confession she could take communion too as she hasnt lived with anyone since my dad left her, i never knew that and neither did she as we both thought that she couldnt take it any more, it was a lovely surprise to her.


It always makes me so sad to see how much misinformation there is floating about. It's the second relationship when one was married validly the first time that the Church teaches is wrong, not the separation, no matter how painful that was.

I am so happy your mother has gone back to receiving communion and so sorry she was away for so long!

re: annulments - the bar is set pretty high for a valid Catholic marriage - your intentions, your maturity, your mental state - so it is actually not all that difficult to challenge the validity of a marriage (and no it doesn't make the children illegitimate because everyone was acting in good faith).

I actually do have a post about IF  but I'll get to that later.

God Bless!


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## ♥Jovial♥

Irish you have been through so much, just wanted to send you a  

Take care hun x


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## skybluesarah

Hi ladies,

Sorry for being away for so long! I was on my training course to be a practitioner for Life FertilityCare, and then we sadly lost our fourth baby a few weeks ago.  It's been hard but I feel closer to God than ever.  I've even joined the choir at our local church and that has really proved to be a blessing.

I am very excited about helping other couples in the same situation with my practitioner work, and as it can also be used for natural family planning I'm hoping I can help those who don't want to get pregnant too!

Love and prayers to you all!

Sarah


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## malteeza

Dear Sarah

I'm so sorry to read you have had another loss.  Did your recurrent miscarriage testing throw anything up at all?  Do Life Fertility have any ideas on changing (?) your current treatment with them?  I'm so sorry this has happened again.  I hope you heal and find peace,

Malteeza x


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## skybluesarah

Hi malteeza,  frustratingly my testing has all come back normal.  Life FertilityCare have discussed my case with Dr Hilgers (the founder in the USA) as well as Dr Boyle in Ireland, and I believe they have come up with a proposal that might work, but I need to have a couple of months break before we try again...if nothing else to recover my sanity!  My recurrent miscarriage specialist also suggested I see a Dr Quenby in Liverpool who tests for NK cells in the womb, so hopefully I will be seeing her next month.


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## malteeza

Hi Sarah

I would be very interested (if you wish to share) the protocol Life fertility has come up with for you. I'm delighted to hear they have pulled out all the stops for you.  I think I mentioned before, I have visited Dr Quenby...like you, her tests and my recurrent testing threw nothing up, but at least I know I have left no stone unturned.  Wishing you all the very best for when you feel able to try again,

Malteeza x


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## Diddles

Hi all
I'm a practising Catholic as is DH.  I became a member of this site specifically for this thread!!  Coz there's jsut noone else out there to talk to about the pressures of TTC and our faith.
I've had a number of operations to clear benign tumours from my abdomen and the most recent one in Aug 07 meant the removal of both my fallopian tubes as well.  This was unexpected and completely devastated both me and DH.  So of course we were offered IVF.  The hospital priest sat on my bed as I poured out my heart to him about the challenge of wanting to be a parent and having to resort to IVF for that gift.  His words of wisdom to me was to tell me about the first "test tube baby" born and the words of congratulations offered by the then Pope (not JPII).  Yes, it made me feel a bit better about things, but there was still a long way to go before I felt right and reconciled to the option we took.  My feeling is I dont have any tubes due to a disease I have and always will have, which happens to affect my insides and as an aside my repro organs, so I'm using medicine to help me get round that, my docotr told me to htink of it as part of my ongoing treatment.!!

My main worry all along was the production of too many eggs, lots of embryos, all the worry about freezing.  We'd even decided that if it meant 10 children we would use all of the embryos we produced.

But do you know what...?  Man proposes and God disposes.  I haven't had an ethical dilemma.  Each time we've only had 2 embryos to put back in.  No ethical dilemma.  

It's God who's given me the strength to believe that it's in his hands and to accept each pothole in the road!

Sorry for the long ramble - its just so good totlak to others in the same "position".

XXX


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## skybluesarah

Hi everyone,

Have had a mad few weeks...feel like life is almost settling back down to normal now though, thank the Lord!
Hi Diddles, and welcome!  You really have been through the mill, it must have been so hard.

I didn't know about that thing with the Pope sending the congratulations with the first test tube baby - it does seem to rather go against the Church's teaching which is very specific that IVF is not permitted...but hey...we all know the Catholic Church can be a tad confusing at times! 

Malteeza, what they are thinking about is low dose naltrexone (I think if you google it you should find a pdf file from Dr Phil Boyle who works in Ireland about it.)  Not ready to try it yet though, we need a break.


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## Hollybags

Another RC here! Skybluesarah we've 'spoken' before, on Hitched!

As you'll see from my signature, we had ICSI and it worked so we're now expecting our first baby. I wrestled with some aspects of ICSI, particularly the bit about left over embryos. As it was, we never got to that point, and had 2 transferred and one embedded. It hasn't been an easy journey, and a hard bit was telling my mum as I wasn't sure how she'd react. She was fine though as she knew how desperate we were. 

SBS, I have immune issues and had implantation problems because my raised NK cells would recognise any embryo as a cacerous cell and kill it, which explains the numerous times when we were convinced it was our turn, only to have a mega bleed, and it'd start all over again. Interestingly (I thought!) I had a very early HCG which was only 29, and I'd already started bleeding and was given steroids on the spot at the clinic, which I've been on ever since. My HCG shot up and continued to rise nicely! We've had 2 scans which were amazing and have another tomorrow!
What I'm saying, in a long winded way, is I wonder if I'd had the steroids first and carried on ttc naturally, would the embryo have stuck. I don't know. I think getting your NKs tested is a great idea and I hope you get some answers soon.

Best wishes to all

HB x x


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## betty-77

Hey Loopy fancy meeting you here    I have an aunt and friend who strongly believe in the power of St Gerard Majella - patron saint of mother and babies.  Both had terrible experiences trying to conceive and both now have 2 children. i would carry Prayer for Motherhood with me.  i know there is an annual novena to st gerard majella in dundalk in october.

Betty xx


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## Hollybags

We need Hispanic names for our baby and we're seriously considering Majella. I think it's a nice name!


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## betty-77

that's what my friend called her baby


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## betty-77

hello loopy 

i've never been to this novena as i only found out about it last year just after the last one finished. from what i know thousands of people travel to this every year. like you it would be a bit of a trek to try and travel to dundalk every day, especially after a days work, but i do think i will try and attend a few of them this year anyway. this link should give you all the info you need.

http://www.dundalkonline.com/index.php?id=stgerardsnovena

Betty xx

/links


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## betty-77

Thanks for that loopy,

Worth pointing out for anyone else on this thread there is a link to send any petitions online to the novena for those who cannot attend.

As for DH i know what mine would say if it was his birthday!  in fact i think the only way he would go is because he will have to drive me as its in Dundalk (i do drive but not good on my own in places i don't know   )  in June I done the Clonard Novena, to save on time and petrol i would have went straight from work rather than drive home to crumlin and back to Belfast, he actually went to his mums had a cuppa and came back and collected me rather than just come with me    

Betty xx


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## BikerGirl

Hi girls,
not currently wrestling this particular dilemma but thought I'd share. I was brought up catholic in Malta, probably one of the most catholic places you can be in. Although my husband is more of a practicing catholic, I for several reasons am not too enchanted with the church as an institution. I had some struggles of my own with treatment, but not because of anything catholic-related, but merely because I had issues with things not being the way nature intended. In the end we finally concieved our daughter (stimmed cycle) when our consultant had given us two more cycles before needing to switch to ivf. To the best of my knowledge the church has no issue with using drugs to make the woman ovulate.
Here in Malta IVF is carried out by, as far as I know, only two doctors, and it is done as best as can be done not to offend any catholic sentiments. As a result only 3 eggs are fertilised and all three are put back...this also reduces the amount of meds a woman has to use to stim as strictly speaking only 3 good follies are required.This cuts out the problem of any left over embryos. Of course the chances of success when you are only having 3 eggs fertilised are somewhat limited, and having all 3 put back would be considered risky elsewhere, however, that's how it is. It's a very 'take it or leave it or go have treatment abroad' situation.  In fact as far as I know at this moment in time there isn't even any legislation pertaining to IVF in this country so the doctors who carry it out (catholic) have chosen to adopt this system themselves. In this country law of man and law of god tend to move pretty much in sync. Abortion is illegal. People cannot get divorced. 
When I was 2 cycles away from IVF I thought long and hard about whether I could go ahead with it, and if I did whether it would be here or in the UK or somewhere else in Europe. I do believe life begins with conception - not a catholic prerogative- and had issues with embryos being created to be left to die. However I am also a scientist and although I have major issues with embryos being created needlessly, for research etc, I am not so naive as to fail to see that without these sort of practices, reproductive science would not have progressed far enough for any of us to even be having this discussion. So in a way, it is kind of hypocritical to frown upon things for being 'wrong' when we benefit from them at the end of the day. And this extends to pretty much all branches of medicine, not just reproductive medicine. 
At the end of the day, I believe in choosing what feels right for oneself and making decisions that your conscience can live with. There was a time in this country when people had such large families and such small incomes that priests counselled desperate parents who were having a hard time feeding their children to use contraceptives. The rules can be 'bent'. I think that the church in time will, as someone mentioned, change its stance on many things.
X


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## skybluesarah

Hi Hollybags, fancy seeing you here! Congrats on your BFP!  And welcome to all the ladies that have recently joined the thread.

BikerGirl, that is really interesting about Malta, thank you.  How wonderful that you were so blessed, congratulations.

As for relics/prayers etc: I have a prayer for motherhood on my desk at work, and a rosary of the unborn at home - but I don't think they specifically help (personal view), I figure it's all down to God whatever.

I will be praying for you all, God Bless


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## Hollybags

skybluesarah said:


> Hi Hollybags, fancy seeing you here! Congrats on your BFP! And welcome to all the ladies that have recently joined the thread.
> 
> BikerGirl, that is really interesting about Malta, thank you. How wonderful that you were so blessed, congratulations.
> 
> As for relics/prayers etc: I have a prayer for motherhood on my desk at work, and a rosary of the unborn at home - but I don't think they specifically help (personal view), I figure it's all down to God whatever.
> 
> I will be praying for you all, God Bless


Hello! Not seen you in the Other Place lately! Hope all is well! xx


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## skybluesarah

Hollybags, I lurk daily but don't post - we're not trying at the moment until we get our NK cells test results back (now overdue, bah), and I don't really like posting about myself, it makes me feel like I am jinxing myself!


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## Hollybags

I sort of know what you mean, SBS! 
Where are you getting your NKs done? I got a bit overwhelmed with all the info when I had my immune stuff tested. I'm at ARGC and they requested 17 different assays (which I when realised meant 17 vials of blood! Bleurgh!) and I tried to understand the results as much as I could. Have you seen Alan Beer's book - "Is my body baby friendly?" It's very interesting, written for patients rather than clinicians and helped me understand a bit about what's going on. His website is useful too.

http://repro-med.net/

My clinic has repeated the NK part of the assay twice since then to make sure the steroids are doing their job, and so far so good. The steroids are fine but I'm STARVING hungry all the time and am piling on weight! I've got a bump but sadly I think it's mostly lard!

Hope this helps, and hope your results come through soon and give you some clear answers! xx

/links


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## skybluesarah

Thank you - I have Dr Beer's book and it is absolutely fascinating.  I have had the endometrial biopsy done at Liverpool Women's Hospital to test for NK cells in the womb lining, no NK blood tests -can't afford to go for those just yet....mind you, the biopsy cost £480!! Ouch!  Have had lots of immune stuff blood tested already though at Leeds, but they all came back fine.  So, I am pinning my hopes on the test from Liverpool.

I'm sure your bump is bump not lard - I popped open the zip of my trousers when I was pregnant the first time and 5 and a half weeks!  Sadly didn't last longer than that but I definitely had a hint of something before I lost it.


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## Scouse

Hi Ladies I don't normally post here but have a 'niggling' guilty feeling, wondering if catholics are successful in IVF??  Not really knowing how the church really feels about AR, not knowing if I should be praying for us to be successful during our next cycle.......... 

But i've read someoof your stories and us catholics can get pregnant with and without help!  I HAD to try AR for my peace of mind - knowing I had tried everything!  But my faith is also important to me!

Sorry to ramble but this has been worrying me since our first cycle and I never had anyone to say out loud this worry.
I think you'll understand!?
Congratualtions to all you BFP ladies and thank you for offering hope and inspiration X


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## skybluesarah

Hi Scouse, and welcome.

The Catholic church is against assisted conception (sorry).  A hell of a lot of Catholics do not follow that teaching though.  And any child is a child of God, no matter how conceived.

I have decided not to have IVF, and so am being treated by Life FertilityCare and they have been great.  Especially good for unexplained infertility I think.  I would really recommend getting in touch with them if you haven't already.  I'm guessing you're in Liverpool?  So are they!


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## Scouse

Thanks !
Born in Liverpool but now live in Cardiff.
Do they have a website?

I feel better already reading on here that catholics do get pregnant with IVF and reinforces the idea that every child is sent by God and a blessing however it was conceived!


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## kooks1

scouse - i am catholic (but not very strict i am afraid   ) and i had IVF for my baby, my cousin also had hers by IVF (he is 5 now) and she is VERY strong in her religious beliefs. so yes catholics can get pregnant using IVF and i believe they should be able to choose IVF if they want/need it to help them concieve. just my opinion hope you feel better about it all soon - whatever you decide


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## pipgirl

Scouse (and any others)

I just wanted to say..i have heard of a catholic couple who are stressing about tx because of the churches approval ect this weekend and obviously some of you are too..

Can i just point out (not trying to upset anyone here) The Catholic Church is NOT anti assisted reproduction!!!

Assisted reproduction covers a number of methods to get pregnant and does not just refer to IVF.
The Catholic church has no edicts against the use of clomid or other fertility drugs to produce eggs if the woman doesnt ovulate...in fact ivf is not a problem either provided the husbands sperm is used and all the fertilised eggs are used (which means in catholic countries they only remove a few and put them all back or only put two back and two in freezer for second go) The aim of this is to not let life perish..

In fact the directive to try to have children is paramount in the faith and it is the creation of extra embryos which may be defrosted and die which the church has a specific problem with...i am not certain but i think creating extra embryos can be  ok IF the ones you dont use you donate to another couple to provide the embryos with a chance of life...obviously they would have to agree to use them which is more difficult to regulate but it equates to adoption which the church is fine with..if they are defrosted and dont make it to ET or dont concieve a pregnancy that is ok, because that is deemed natural, you dont make the choice there -  god does.

I say this because i hate to think some people will believe that their faith dictates ALL AR is not allowed when it simply not true! There are a lot of things that can be done to stay within church teaching...otherwise women in malta italy spain and ireland wouldnt be able to have IVF at all and of course they do.

BTW I am a Roman Catholic married to a Jew and i dont care what either religion says about it...god gave us free will to create and detsroy, all we have done is create..we had ivf and have 7 embryos left which we are delighted about and will be using in the next three years, if any remain we will donate them to infertile couples as an 'adoption' and will not choose to let any perish.
Incidentally the Jewish teaching is that ANY method to concieve is condoned as one of gods most important commandments to man was to be fruitful and multiply and this 'mitzvah' overrides any modern take (which current theology is since ivf was unknown 25 yrs ago) on AR. In fact, this is so important to jews that even donor eggs and sperm are permitted in a form of adoption, wheras the RC does not allow that. Seeing as RC teachings are based primarily on the jewish torah and religious laws (jesus never gave any laws out on how to live day to day life, he followed the practices of torah as he was a jew)...i think this is a valid point. Overall though, books are written by men, not god and even if you have fundamental belief, nowhere in the books is AR mentionned and the various opinions on it (in all faiths) contradict one another anyway because they were dreamed up by theologians in the past 10-20 years and are constantly being reviewed...for example, the RC church was a firm supporter of the transatlantic slave trade in the 18th and early 19th century (and also of imperialistic rule) as it was a method of converting vast amounts of people to the faith...and do they take the same stance today ? I dont think so!


Sorry if this seems like a rant, and its not directed at anyone...i just dont want people to suffer unecessarily!

Pipgirl


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## skybluesarah

Scouse: I think their website is www.lifefertilitycare.co.uk

Pipgirl - many Catholics think the way you do, but that is not the teaching of the church. Many Catholics have been misinformed about this over the years, and made reproductive choices based on this misunderstanding.

Yes, drugs like Clomid are fine, but any assisted reproduction technique that means a child is conceived in any other way than the traditional, the Church is against. This is because it divorces the procreative intention from making love.

You can read more about it here, from one of the official church websites.

http://www.life4seekers.co.uk/WhydoestheCatholicChurchopposeInVitroFertilisationIVF.htm

I'm sorry - I really don't mean to be argumentative about this, but as much as it frustrates you, it frustrates me too that most people don't understand the true teaching.

/links


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## Scouse

kooks1 said:


> scouse - i am catholic (but not very strict i am afraid  ) and i had IVF for my baby, my cousin also had hers by IVF (he is 5 now) and she is VERY strong in her religious beliefs. so yes catholics can get pregnant using IVF and i believe they should be able to choose IVF if they want/need it to help them concieve. just my opinion hope you feel better about it all soon - whatever you decide


Kooks you have made my day! Just knowing it does work and that I can carry on praying for our own miracle without feeling guilty!
I believe God brought my dh to me when I was in need of a friend, and our relationship grew from there. I really believe God wants us to be together and to seal our love with a baby of our own, would be perfect and so fitting!

So I will continue to pray for all couples in this situation, with special thought for us RC!
Good luck and God bless X


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## kooks1

awww scouse   so pleased my reply helped a little   i will pray for you hun and i am sure your right that god wants you to have  a baby and you WILL have one


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## pipgirl

I did post a theological answer but ive decided not to bother now as there is very little point.

I just hope that anyone going through these issues does what is right for them, whether or not they read articles written by men who have opted out of society and the chance to have a family which tell them something is right or wrong...if it is important enough for you, you will make the right decision.

Good luck to all going through ivf or any other form of AR.


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## Scouse

Thank you ladies or your support and prayers X
And congratualtions pipgirl & kooks on your babies X


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## skybluesarah

I guess the thing is, you just have to make the decision that is right for you personally.  Neither decision is easy..and neither guarantees a baby at the end, as we know 

But...every child created is a child of God, regardless of how they came into being.  And God can and does bless Catholics through IVF.  I really hope you ladies are some of those that are blessed. We might not agree on Church teaching, but that doesn't mean we can't help and support each other. 

Pipgirl - I hope I didn't offend you, that certainly wasn't my intention.  Hopefully we can just agree to disagree?


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## martina79

Hi girls

hope you don't mind me joining in.  dh & i are both irish catholics pregnant after our 2nd icsi attempt.  my main concern was what happened with leftover embryos  - i didn't want them 'dumped'  1st time round only 2 fertilised so it wasn't an issue. on our 2nd cycle we discussed freezing all embryo's with our clinic regardless of quality & amazingly enough all were good enough quality to freeze even if we hadn't requested for them all to be frozen.  I fully intend to use our 5 frosties even if we end up with triplets & twins  dh may have a heart attack if that happens tho!

anyway i think the ivf decision is one each couple has to take for themselves  -we knew it was something we had to try.  we had alot of support from members of our family with much stronger faith than ours & i also had alot of support from a catholic deacon.  i know alot of people were praying for us during the 2ww inc relatives who were in medjugorje (sorry can't spell).  i don't think god could see anything wrong with a loving couple wanting to become a family.  i think of my baby as a miracle gift from god & even if i never get pregnant again i know how lucky i've been
xx


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## Be Lucky

Jus joining the debate.i am from a catholic bckground and considerin de.mostof the reason my childbearin delayed was cause i had anxiety depression indeed hospitalised 4 this and didnt get much support from parish during that time.think ppl hav a conscience 2 and must use that .also is it gods will that ppl could stay ill without treatment for physical or mental conditions so what bout infertility.also re catholic church arent children prefebly conceived within marriage.let thousands of children born os of marriage.baptised and go 2 catholic schools.so why mine though not conceived normally thru making luv shouldnt b welcome in2 the church i dont know.we r human and all hav human failings which r worthy of forgiveness.it funny readin this thread has made my mind up 2 go forward with de and my dh agreeable from the start!good luck 2 everybody whatever their religion or if none at all.berniex


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## Hawkeye

Hi everyone,
I have been reading this thread with interest.
My situation is that I am a Catholic and I am blessed to have three children from ICSI - a daughter aged 7 and b/g twins aged 3. 
I have a dilemma at the moment, as my big girl is preparing for her first confession and communion. She goes to the local RC school.
Personally I take her to mass, but I don't go to confession or take communion myself. I have not been to confession for many, many years.
Can anyone clarify the churches stance on IVF for me? I was under the impression that it was seen to be a sin. However, having been through the process myself, to get my cherished children, I cannot agree with that.
I simply cannot bring myself to confess their conception as being a sin.
Our current priest is a nightmare if I am honest. I don't trust him an inch. He does not know I have had IVF at all, and I am sure that if he did know, he would refuse to let my children receive the sacraments. He has very recently refused others in my daughter's class as they 'don't attend church every Sunday', so I am sure that being an IVF-conceived child would be worse in his eyes?
I have tried to research this on the internet, but all I can find are statements like 'Catholics believe that IVF children were not created by God, but by a doctor' - this kind of statement is totally ignorant and really upsets me. 
How am I going to explain to my daughter why I don't go to confession and communion myself - it's a minefield...
Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone else was having the same dilemma, and if after having children, they felt they could confess to having had IVF?
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Hawkeye.


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## skybluesarah

Hi Hawkeye,

Congratulations on your three miracles!
You are right on the church's view on IVF - but - this should not mean that your children are treated any differently.  Once a child is conceived it is a child of God regardless of how they came into being.  After all, it is God who willed their life into existence (and I realise that sounds odd in conjunction with the church's stance on IVF).  
I hope this helps.


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## Hawkeye

Thanks Sarah,
the way I see it, the IVF doctors are using their God-given talents to help me to achive my family.
Just to add, I too had real concerns about the creation of 'spare' embryos. After a detailed disussion with my clinic and consultant, we agreed to replace our frozen embryos (six in total), one by one as they came out of the thaw. As it worked out, I had four FETs, none of which were successful.
On my second fresh cycle, we had six embryos, two of which were 'streets ahead' of the rest. I agreed to have those two replaced and asked that the remaining were not frozen, as I had agonised so much about frozen embryos in the past.
Thankfully we were successful with twins on that cycle, so had no 'spare' to worry about. I knew that if I had not been successful, I would have had to start again from scratch, but I was prepared for that.
Thanks for your reply,
Hawkeye.


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## pipgirl

Happy for your lovely family Hawkeye

Just to say. A priest cannot refuse to give sacraments to a child on the grounds it was concieved through ivf. That child has been baptised and is as such already a member of the congregation. It would not matter if the child was from a single parent family / one night stand ect...

As i have said before, free will is made much of in chrisitanity and since doctors are able to come up with miracle cures for problems (be that infertility or cancer) it is more likely that is is a sin that these gifts are not used to help others. If someone is a christian they are told to belive that the teachings of jesus are paramount  and that the most important rule is to love thy neighbour as thy love thyself...this means helping others.

Doctors can cure types of cancer...is that a sin? A fundamentalist who says assisted conception is a sin should by the same token believe that treatment of illness/intervention by doctors is also a sin. And of course that dosnt make sense, as no treatment means people would die...no ivf means eggs you produce never get a chance of life if you are infertile...at the end of the day...RC (like any other denomination of any religion) is a concept invented by people to better understand the world they live in and their place in it...these religions are sets of rules that WE create in order to give our communities and society structure. That is why all peoples of the world adhere to some sort of belief system.
Religion is man made too....communication with God/higher power has to be independant of that...it is above such petty things as churches priests and edicts.

Good luck to you and your family.

Pip


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## craftyclara

hi all,

be assured that your children can't be denied the Sacraments. if you are worried about the priest in your parish - go to confession somewhere else and then you needn't ever discuss it with him. i would schedule and appointment just to talk to a priest - to say how hard it is to understand the church's teaching in light of the beautiful gifts you have in your children. considering the church's view on this doesn't ever mean you have to be sorry you have your children! approach it with an open heart. Receivign the Sacraments will make a lot more sense to your children the more active you are in your own faith life - and a little bit of peace of mind goes a long way.

i would encourage (particularly those quick to lable others as fundamentalists and petty) to give some thought to why ivf isn't allowed -although i agree it's a difficult teaching. not every one will allow the ivf process to make children into commodities, but we must be honest and admit that the process drives one's thinking there sometimes and it is exactly this mystery and dignity of the individual that the church is trying to protect.

i am not even going to touch on the extra embryos - please consider donation before disposal.

i rejoice with you when you get BFPs and i share in your grief when you don't whether we agree on these things or not. please try to be gentle and respectful of people you disagree with.

the whole process is very painful - we all know that - who knows it better than we do? i actually feel very blessed to be catholic because there are so many role models in the church who weren't mothers! there were lovely women in my life without children of their own who mean so much to me.  i know that however my own journey works out i am loved and valued - society has one measuring stick, but it isn't the only one. (That said, I keep praying that our path will make us a family.)

Christ's peace be with you!


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## Caroline S

I am a catholic and this is something that has always concerned myself and DH.  Although we have never approached our priest, he does know that we are going through IVF (thanks to my dad) and so do some others at church.  They have all been very supportive, particularly when we got a BFN after our 1st cycle.  My problems lie with the 2nd cycle as we have 7 frosties.  I don't want there to be any left over.  Our clinic don't do donation.  They will only allow 2 x ET.  So unsure how to approach the next cycle.  We have our follow up app on 23rd to discuss what went wrong 1st time and then to look at 2nd cycle and this is something I will need to talk through with them.  Its so difficult to make the right decision, but it is nice to read the other messages on here to see that we are not alone


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## pipgirl

Well

Although you have 7 frosties they will probably end up defrosting more than two..for example if they defrost two and they dont make it, they have to defrost two more and they put those two back and the others expired naturally..and then the rest of your frosties saved for a sibling? That way you havent 'wasted' any of them.

I feel the same way about our frosties; i want to use as many as it takes to get pg again in the next couple years (thankfully any left over can be donated to another couple at our clinic..we have already agreed to this).

Good Luck with your next cycle.


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## sunshineforever

Hi there.  I have just been reading some of your posts however they were posted at the end of last year so hope there is still someone out there?  I am also a Catholic but hadn't been to church really since my teens and only recently came across the Church's views on IVF.  I spoke to my priest and also sent him an e-mail and we are going ahead with my son's Baptism next week.  I am however currently in treatment as we want a second baby.  I have been told by my clinic to only have 1 Embryo transfered however I would prefer 2 as I would like to avoid freezing.  On the other hand with 2 there is the possibility of a twin pregnancy which in itself can bring complications.  I keep going round in circles - if we freeze an Embryo and it doesn't survive the thawing I would feel terrible - but equally if we have twins and there are complications - I'm not sure I could cope with that either.  I would so appreciate any of your thoughts.  Best wishes Kristina


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## Caroline S

We had that dilema on our last FET.  We went with thawing 2 out of 7, in the hope that the 2 survived.  Unfortunately, only 1 survived, but we feel that the 1 that did not survive...maybe that was God's plan? It just died.  That cycle and the 1 embie from our fresh cycle did not take, so the way we see it is that those 3 so far just were not meant to be.  this time we are taking a chance and thawing 3.  As 1 didn't survive last time, we don't really expect all 3 to survive this time and are now at the point where we are willing to take a chance with possible twins as we just want A baby!

hope this helps...good luck xx


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## sunshineforever

Hi Caroline

So good to hear from you and soo wishing you loads of luck.  It will work!!!  I think I came to a decision last night or at least I sent an e-mail to my clinic saying that I would like to transfer 2 Embryos.  At the end of the day if there are more than 2, then they will have to be frozen anyway. I've signed up for this treatment and it just brings lots of unkowns with it and I think we are all just trying to do the best we can.  We have an opportunity to conceive and as long as we do our best to do the right thing - than that is what is important.  I will let you know the outcome of my scans and ET in the next week or so.  

Take care.  Kristina


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