# a bully in church - how do I tackle this?



## hbrodie

Hello
Just after some advice really.
I am a very quiet churchgoer, I tend to keep myself to myself, although I am the secretary of the church PCC  
There is a member of the church I go to who everyone fears and daren't speak to for fear of being snapped at or humiliated!
I go to the 11am service each sunday, and luckily this lady goes to the 8am one   but she appears at the door as we all leave at about 1215 each sunday, to collect the collections as she is the treasurer. 
She makes sarcastic comments like 'nice to see you miss secretary' when I had not been for a few weeks after my m/c (Understandible I think) or after a holiday etc. Sometimes I can't go, like for example if Emily is mid-nap or I have no one to baby sit whilst I go to church - she is at the stage of being a bit boistrous in church and although we are welcome to take her and they all like her being there I think it is unfair to disturb the others each week. I am the youngest member of the congregation, they are all 70+  
At the PCC meeting last week she was vile to me   . before the meeting started writing things down to remind me of a few bits. I overheard her saying - to no one in particular! - 'look how she holds her pen to write!'     then I was asked by someone if I was going to attend the ahrvest supper. I asked when it was and at what time (I had got off the plane from USA the night before and was severely jetlagged so couldn't recall dates stored in my brain very easily) and the lady snapped at me from the other end of the table 'I'd have thought you would KNOW that date off the top of your head...secretary!' so I answered (politely) that I was jetlagged and only got home the night before and she snapped back 'it is irrelevant what time you got home and from where, your job is to know these dates...they are on the gates for all to see a year in advance!' so one of the other ladies changed the subject for me   I felt really   but held it all in. Then, during the meeting, I was snapped at again....this time because Roy asked me how my hlliday was in america and I said it was fantastic...to which she said under her breath but loud enough for all to hear 'well I wouldn't have come back if I were you'   how rude! I ignored her. I saw others looking aghast though   
I was unable to attend the previous PCC due to a family bereavement - I was upcountry attending a funeral - so the vicar stepped in and took the minutes for me. He asked if we were all happy with them, if there were any mistakes to let him know and this lady was only too happy to point out that lots of mistakes had been made on her treasury report....and kept making digs that he was trained as a clergyman and not a secretary, and that secretaries are meant to attend pcc's to prevent this thing happening, and that vicars are busy enough without added tasks like taking minutes   
At the end of the meeting, she left and the others all told me to ignore her and that she is always vile - although especially vile that night   

They told the vicar - who had missed lots of the digs due to being late (car troubles!) and he said 'oh no, not again....please don't go on or I'll worry' and as much as I like our vicar, he is a star! he is very damp when it comes to this kind of thing. 

Plus, no one stands up to her for fear of being snapped at! She is an old lady, hunched over, pointy nose, hard / harsh voice and is a 'Miss'. 

Do I continue to ignore her in the future or do I say something? if so, what? bearing in mind our meetings are in Church and I don;t want to be like her and be rude to her in front of others....but then maybe she needs to taste her own medicine?


----------



## ladynecta

It must be hard for you to keep going! I admire you for that!

If I were you... when she makes a comment like that in future I would loudly say to her, "I'm sorry, what did you say? Could you repeat that a bit louder I didn't hear you." And see if she is prepared to say it when everyone is listening and not just making snide comments under her breath or to the person next to her (who probably doesn't know what to say!). If she is bold enough to be vile back and clearly infront of everyone I would say to her "I will pray for you, I hope god can show you kindness so you may show it to others." So that everyone can see you have taken pity on her attitude and and haven't been rude back.

Just a thought. I hope you can resolve this one and helping out for the church becomes a more plesant and less stressful experience.


----------



## Honeywitch

Pray for her. She needs it!


----------



## hbrodie

thanks ladies. I like both suggestions!


----------



## malteeza

Hi hbrodie

This woman is vile and I'm afraid your vicar and everyone else is colluding in allowing her to be a mean, nasty, viscious old *******.  Unfortunately it has fallen to you to stand up to her as no-on else has.  Two things spring to mind....when she whispers or says out loud nasty things - you could say 'that sounded very rude/nasty/intimidating...did you mean it to be?'  She may think twice... (I loved the suggestion of asking her to repeat something so everyone could hear.)

If she doesn't get the hint, you could ask yourself are you willing to continue in your post or is it worth resigning over?  You could have the pleasure of informing her that you are resigning due to her unreasonable, bullying behaviour and that you will make the ENTIRE CONGREGATION fully aware of it.  Also, you could follow it up with DO NOT EVER COME NEAR ME AGAIN.

I think if you fall in to the trap of trying to be forgiving etc because this is a 'church issue' you will just continue to suffer her bullying.  A bully is a bully whatever the setting and it is she who should be asking for your forgiveness.  Remember, while she is saying mean things to you, she is not doing a number on anyone else - hence the group, however nice, may have a vested interest in you copping for all the venom.  


OK that's my amateur psychology rant over - good luck - and prayers being sent your way.  

Malteeza


----------



## zoooooommmmm

I think Vicar should do a sermon on kindness to fellow man myself. he could do it under guise of helping advise the kiddies against being nasty and bullies by being unkind to others and perhaps add in a comment that some adults can also be less than kind and should think about it to. I gave up the whole church thing a while ago, but old vicar was always very good at these type of sermons that made people aware and know he disproved without any conflict.

perhaps this lady is a little jealous of you and thats why shes so mean, don't know. i always think bullies should be pitied. I don't do confrontation either but I'd say next time she makes a nasty comment just say "sorry I didn't quite catch that" and see if she repeats it, might make her think. Or else maybe "I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound quite how it did Hilda, that rather made me a little hurt". yes i know i sound slightly like a posh bird but find that works a treat with the older ladies which I'm assuming she is !

take care

isax


----------



## hbrodie

thanks for all your replies. I think the main thing coming accross is to make her repeat herself in front of the others so she feels belittled.....I think this may be the way to go. I also like the idea of asking if she actually meant her words to be so harsh.
I shall let you know how I get on when we have our next PCC meeting (nov) or before if she is mean before then....good chance as it is most sundays when we pass at the door


----------



## ❁ BG2007 ❁

Goodness me this woman sounds awful.

First off I think you should take some comfort from the fact that she has behaved like this before, she has clearly decided that you should be her punch bag but it comes from a rather unpleasant character trait of hers and *not* you! I admire your patience so far!

I too like the idea of asking her repeat her comments and yes I think she does need praying for.

I'd be tempted to also use the 'did you mean that to sound so nasty / rude / intimidating' but might try a 'I don't know why you feel you must be so rude to me but I pray God gives me the strength of character to forgive you' with any luck that may patronize her into silence!


----------



## SisterC

Hi

I'm not Christian, and I am very surprised that no one has suggested you turn the other cheek.

My take on the situation, for what it's worth, is that the woman is either jealous of your position or has so little in her life that this Church committee is the be all and end all and so she thinks you are not "worthy" of your position. She certainly does not have any empathy for you. Do you for her?

My advice is to think of how blessed you are - you are young, you have a healthy baby and you have your belief in God - it appears she's a bitter old woman with no charity in her. Maybe she is lonely. Try giving her your baby to hold - that might reach a part of her that is buried under the bitterness or whatever else is negative in her life - from the sounds of it she doesn't get too many hugs. Ask her to babysit at 11 so you can go to the service. You have a chance here to test your Christian values - there is no point in having them unless you act upon what you believe. You can help her too. Sometimes people like that are crying out for a bit of attention and don't know how to ask for help.

Or be honest with her, and say that she is really upsetting you and hurting your feelings and that you feel she is not treating you with respect. Ask her directly to avoid saying nasty comments and if she can not say something good to say nothing at all. She may or may not respond positively but you will have behaved in a dignified, direct manner that will put you in control of the situation. 

Ask her if she wants to do your job or if she wants you to do it, and then decide if you are going to do it, how you are going to do it. Where does it come on your list of priorities? Maybe you should shelve it and let someone who has nothing else to do, do it. You could offer to be a vice-secretary who will stand in when required. What is important - holding the position or doing the job, or teaching this old woman a lesson or standing up for yourself? There is a story behind her behaviour as well, even if she is unpleasant. Have patience. Practise charity, practise forgiveness. Try to understand. Try to love her.

I don't think you should try to put her down or patronize her. I think that is not only un-Christian but also un-Godly.

Give us an update after the next meeting.
Best wishes
SisterC


----------



## malteeza

Dear SisterC

I think you have missed the point.  Everyone in hbrodie's church HAS been 'turning the other cheek' and therefore allowing this woman to continue to bully. It would be decidedly 'unChristian' as you put it, to allow her to continue to do so, and it has fallen to hbrodie to take a stand....which I am sure she will do without patronising or putting down.

Malteeza


----------



## Piriam

Hbrodie, 

I   that you're able to deal with this with wisdom, it's hard being bullied.    . I also   that you're able to pray for her as I agree she probably needs it.

Take care hon,    

Piriam


----------



## hbrodie

I had a chat with one of the church wardens on sunday before the service. She came to me to tell me she had heard from her dh (who is another church warden and attended the PCC meeting) that this lady was mean to me. She told me that 'she' has a heart of gold under it all but no one ever sees it now, she is scared of getting old and having dementia....and unfortunately the dementia is starting to come for her, albeit slowly and not really noticable to those who don;t know her of old   
I do feel for her and I know that dementia can make you grumpy and change your personality   but apparently she has been this mean for a long long time and everyone is scared of her. 

I decided long ago that I had to say something rather than ignore it....I was bullied all through juniors and then through the upper secondary school years and I cannot allow it to happen in my adulthood   but my quandry was what to say and how to say it without being mean back at her and without becoming a bully myself....

What I shall do is this;
next pcc meeting is 11th nov. When she says something derogitory (sp) to me, or anyone else for that matter, I intend to just say to her 'please can we have a meeting without negative comments?' to which she will no doubt reply something catty and then I shall respond with something like 'all you say are negative things, (name), and to be honest it is rather upsetting for me to have to sit through 2 hours of it!' and I hope this stops it. 
The other alternative is to ignore
the other alternative is to come out with 'do you realise how negative and abrupt you are?'

I do   for her because she is obviously unhappy  
I smile at her but am greeted by a stony, angry face or she turns away.
There is NO way I'd ask her to baby sit emily   I think she'd neglect her   and anyway she would say no to it!


----------



## zoooooommmmm

Oh dear, I feel very sorry for her, poor lady. I imagine shes as scared and sad as we all are somedays. I know you wouldn't consider leaving Emily with her but maybe just asking her what she thinks on baby issues or asking if she'd like to give her a cuddle would be quite a nice thing to do and how could anyone not be happy looking at your lovely little girls smile. I'm not saying she should be mean the way she is but she must feel very alone and maybe tahts the only way she can get attention? I always think babys often bring out the best in peopel and maybe your lovely girl will bring out a kinder side with this lady. I imagine she'd like being asked what she thinks about little problems and feel useful. Don' know really, just hate seeing anyone unhappy

Isa x


----------



## hbrodie

she has made it very clear on many occasions that she HATES children and babies


----------



## zoooooommmmm

oh sorry, mind you lots of people think I hate babies when my hearts been breaking for one


----------



## hbrodie

I went through that stage.....I used to try and ignore the pg ladies and the babies and I am sure peple thought I'd be an awful mum and would not even want children but in all honesty my heart was also breaking....it is how we protect ourselves I think


----------



## Bambam

Hi hbrodie

I'm probably going to be throwing a curve ball and wondered about posting this a few days ago when you first posted.... now you've had someone say underneath it all she has a heart of gold i have decided i will.....

When i read your first post i wondered if she was just very lonely, sometimes when we are upset and feel alone we can lash out. If she's feeling old, scared and possibly like she has no use or purpose any more would it help by being nice to her and possibly involving her in some of your duties. Asking her for some help, asking her opinion on things and just making her feel like you value her and her opinion? I know offering the hand of friendship can be very tough when we are the subject of such nastiness but i'm wondering if it may help? 

I wonder if by drawing her nasty attitude and comments out in to a more open arena may just make her sadder and lonelier. 

Whatever you choose to do i hope the situation becomes easier for you both    

Amanda xx


----------



## Askara

!

Unacceptable behaviour there i feel. Sometimes it just takes one person to stand up to them and people normally then join in to say "btw.. that was not cricket" and they normally back down and then only think it and not breathe the words.

Either way, you are better than her, you have other things in life which are more important.

Although Amanda does have a point.. its wishfull thinking.. but a good point all the same! 

Georgie


----------



## hbrodie

TBH I have chatted to her in the past, albeit very rarely cos she normally just snarles at me   so I scamper away   and she give monosalabic answers and has even walked away whilst I was speaking to her....about church things! I think it was about a date that had been changed and I wondered if she was aware


----------



## Bambam

oh well it was just a thought  

sending you more      

Amanda xx


----------



## hbrodie

thanks hun
I think, sadly, that there are just some people in this world who are miserable and grumpy and there is nothing you can to do help them or change them


----------



## malteeza

Hi hbrodie

Sound like you have got a great plan.  You can do this and you will feel all the better for it.  Let us know how it goes.

Malteeza


----------



## ♥AngelBumps♥

Sounds like a horrible, soulless woman. I think as she is sarcastic and mean, she will see through any act of kindness from you as disingenuous, even though you will be very gracious. Not standing up to a bully (which some people have suggested) would let her think that this way of life for her is acceptable. Illness is not an excuse to berate or constantly put someone down. She is mean and needs to be dealt with. I despise nasty people - see, it has the negative affect of making one have negatively in one's life for others, when they are negative toward you. This woman's business is not in the Church, not in any church I know. How the others let her carry on I don't know! - they need to self-assess. She needs to have her bad manners and nastiness nipped in the bud, or she wont get into heaven - that is, according to the rule book!


----------



## hbrodie

thanks hun. 
congratulations on your bfp BTW, I see your ticker   
I have the next PCC meeting on the 11th....I shall keep you all posted on what happens. I have a feeling she will mention the treasury report being a bit wrong....I am sure I must have made a mistake, I must have, her writing was so  bad! the vicare helped me read it - I told him I was too scared to ask this lady and he just rolled his eyes upward and chuckled 'yes, me too'


----------



## ♥AngelBumps♥

Thanks H!
Yes, let us all know - I was intrigued when I read your story... you certainly don't need this in addition to what you're going through!
Fingers crossed!
A x


----------



## hbrodie

we had our PCC meeting last night. it was held at grumpy moo's house. turns out suzanne has had a word with her for me and she was as nice as pie to me! a bit grumpy with the vicar, told him it was his fault we r in financial difficulties cos he never preaches about giving!   poor vicar looked really upset!


----------



## ❁ BG2007 ❁

would it be worth 'rewarding' her   a sort of "I was just driving past and thought I'd drop this lovely shortbread / pot plant off for you  " as a kind of subliminal thank you? 

It might make her day   and you'll feel happy   

glad she was nice to you though.

B xxx


----------



## hbrodie

that is a nice idea, I know she has an ancient cat who was a stray which she took in, and a little westie too, and they r her life. I might find her something with a cat or westie on


----------



## GuitarAngel1979

I love the saying 'kill them with kindness'. It will make her boil. 

But, at the same time she is very rude and comments as such are really not needed. If there were enough complaints from others do you think the vicar would have a chat with her?


----------



## hbrodie

I think he has had several chats with her over the past few years TBH


----------



## bangles

Hi hbrodie,

You have received lots of excellent advice here.  Just thought I would drop in a couple of points for consideration which aren't in themselves answers, but just things to think about.  Firstly, is your objective to stop this woman from bullying you, or to stop her from continuing her bullying behaviour so that it doesn't happen to others as well?  It's tempting to say the second of these, because we all feel a moral duty to take care of others, but you have to look after number one just now, and we can't all be in crusader mode all the time.  

If she was nice to you last time, it could be that the person who told her she was upsetting you gave her the victory she needed, and she may turn her venom on others.  Maybe the most you could ask of yourself would be to support those people as and when it happens.  

If on the other hand you are sure you are 'up' for trying to change things, you need to think about roles.  At the moment, she is like a crabby teacher.  She has assumed for herself the position of power, and the rest of the community, including the vicar, have taken on the roles of the children - able to support each other on the quiet, but ultimately allowing her to be in control.  If you are going to take her on, you need to start working on the role of headmistress - ie. see yourself as someone with authority over her.  This is all very nebulous I know, but power roles are all in the mind.

I think the dementia could be a red herring.  I am not medically trained, and if there are any doctors or nurses posting here, they would know better than me, but as far as I know, dementia is, in the first instance, episodic - involving memory loss, disorientation, confusion.  Changes in personality, I think, come later.  If she is telling others that she is scared of dementia, and giving the impression her crabbiness is a result of this, it could be a convenient excuse.  It shows self awareness.  I'm not sure dementia sufferers have that awareness.  My mother in law has a paranoid personality disorder, and as a result we have no more to do with her, because contact was becoming increasingly destructive and dangerous for us.  I would suggest that you google personality disorders - there are lots of types, as it seems to me to be far more likely this woman is suffering from one of these.  People with personality disorders can continue life for years, appearing on the outside to be 'normal' but behaving strangely on continued acquaintance.  Power and the control of others can be a key issue for these people.

The church, sadly, is open to abuse from the power hungry - whether we are talking about the Spanish inquisition or Cardinal Wolsley or witch hunts, or local church politics.  People requisition God to try and get others to behave as they wish.  At the same time, it is filled with good, wonderful people who love their neighbours.  Their forgiving natures make it easier for the power hungry to prey on them.  I would also treat with care someone else's summation of this woman as having a 'heart of gold'.  They may be judging her by her deeds, but these may, at a sub-conscious level, be less good than they seem.  For instance, she may have a 'heart of gold' because she stayed up baking cakes for the village fete till 2am once, or she took hot meals round to Mrs X's house for a week when Mrs X had flu.  But in point of fact, she baked the cakes because she wanted everyone to say how wonderful they were/she was - ie. vanity, and she took the hot meals to Mrs X because she wanted Mrs X or the village's good opinion.  She may not even have been aware of these subconscious motivations herself.  However, her assumptions clearly seem to be that others have negative impulses, and this probably reflects the fact that she has some awareness of her own impulses.  My mother once had a friend who went to church every Sunday, and went church cleaning/doing voluntary work, but she was the most vicious gossip - villifying and criticising others.  She could stand on the street for over an hour sharing the poison with anyone she happened to bump into on the way to the shops.  They fell out in the end.  

Good luck in your dealings with her.  Sadly there are too many people out there like her - I'm sure most readers of your posts have recognised people they have met in the past in your descriptions.  Look forward to hearing how it all pans out - Bangles x


----------



## hbrodie

thank you bangles. food for thought there.


----------



## SisterC

Glad to hear Suzanne had a word with her and it proved effective. Hope things continue well.
All the best
Carima


----------



## hbrodie

we have a pcc meeting again on friday so I shall continue to   Pat is gunna be nice to me


----------



## hbrodie

updtae on nasty Pat;

last week, at Phoebe's christening, dh and I were there early, with the godparents, and so was Pat (nasty lady). She is also the treasurer. (I have now resigned from the post of secretary due to family commitments and nasty comments Pat has made to me all just getting to me TBH). anyway, dh and I had a nice big donation for the church and as she was there (giving out the newsletter - she goes to the 0830 service and this was the 1100 one) we went up to her. I said 'oh Pat, I am glad you're here. we have something for you'. so she glares at us and says, really curtly 'oh yes, what?' so I said 'we have a donation for the church'. she said 'so?' I said ' well, u r the treasurer so I thoguht you'd like to have it and take it back with you?' after a long cold glare from her she said 'no, I do not want it thank you very much. I am not going home just yet.' so I (rather bluntly) said 'well who do we give it to then?' to which we were told 'oh just give it to one of the chhurch wardens'. dh and I were stood with our mouths open, as were our godparents, at her rudeness    as she walked off I said under my breath 'grumpy as ever then Pat' (I have not seen her for a while as she has had renal stones and been in hospital) and one of the congregations came over and said' ignore her dear, we all do' but this is the same old story. they all ignore her nasty behaviour and she gets away with it. anyway, as she was walking away with her little dog (who is very cute   ) I heard her say 'come on, let's get out of here' and she flounced off to the alter where the churchwardens were stood and I the nheard her loudly announce that 'had I known there's be all these bloody children here I'd have avoided the place like the plague!' well, my blood boiled but I was very restrained. If it had not been phoebe's christening I would have had to have said something but my guest were arfriving and I did not want a scene. nasty nasty woman    the 2nd sunday is ALWAYS a family service and nearly always has a christening. silly woman.
how is she a christian? I want to tke my girls to church but I fear gtaking them due to her being around because she makes it perfecly clear she hates children and I don;t want my babies exposed to such negativity.
I have been compiling a letter to her in my head (I could never write and send it) but it has helped me get my feelings out because she has really upset me


----------

