# Any positive experiences at Lister? Plus when is it time to give up?



## clare2 (Aug 1, 2006)

I'm about to start IVF at Lister (can't afford ARGC again). Anyone had positive experiences there?

Also, at consultations at ARGC, Lister and ACU at UCH the doctors all told me it was worth trying with my own eggs a fourth time as they're quite good quality for my age. (I was planning to try with donor eggs)

We're going to try a 4th time with my own eggs now, but when is it time to give up? I can't help thinking the more you do IVF, the less likely it is to work (especially as you get older)...but I also wonder whether it's just the luck of the draw and sooner or later it might work. Does anyone have any views on this - maybe you've been successful a 4th or 5th time?

thanks
Elena


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## ChristinaM (Mar 26, 2005)

HI Elen,

I just wanted to let you know that I gave up on the IVF for a while, told that I had a 1-5% chance with IVF Oxford refused to treat me again. I had 1 blocked tube, 1 failed IVF etc

I gave up work, relaxed, ate well and spent time with my partner........in feb I found out I was pregnant and tomorrow at 39 weeks I am haveing a ceasarian birth at 43!

I personally feel that if you remove as much stress as possible it can happen naturally (if partner is ok) I also had faith..

I wish you luck,
Christina


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi Elena,

I am sure I have said this before but there is no way of knowing whether your embryos/eggs are good quality or not - simply looking at them under a microscope tells you whether they fertilise normally, divide normally etc but not whether they are chromosomally normal.  Sadly, as we reach over age 40 a higher proportion of our eggs will be aneuploidy hence the higher chance of implantation failure and miscarriage as we age.

That said, you have been pregnant with ivf before and it is seems that it is worth having another try with your own eggs if your clinic thinks it is a good thing. The Lister is a very good clinic.

The number of times you do ivf may not be the issue.  If you can afford it, I suppose you could give yourself a deadline of 45 as there are no live births over this age with own eggs at most UK clinics.  However, this supposes that you and your DH have no other issues other than age which is preventing you having a baby.  You may have other problems which need diagnosing and treating before success (and which would also prevent a birth with DE if not addressed).

This is why I am always going on and on about testing before commiting money and emotional time to ivf over 40.  Have you and DH had any testing?

About when it is time to give up?  It is a totally personal opinion.  You and your DH probably need to think about how much you can emotionally and financially afford before you move on.  You may want to consider  whether you are at the best clinic, whether you could afford e.g. to go to a US clinic for a last go etc.  You then need to think about whether you would like to move on to DE or adoption etc etc
All very hard and personal decisions.

You may want to try naturally if nothing is wrong with either of you, possibly using injectibles and timed sex or IUI etc etc.  You may however, be prepared to do many cycles like this.  Again, how much can you personally stand??  I got pregnant 3 times with my own eggs at age 44 - 44.5 (one at the Lister), but m/c'd all of them.  My money ran out and I felt I couldn't go on anymore so moved on to DE (also miscarried).  That was my limit, governed by emotion and money.  By the time I had success through donor embryo it was all I could afford (a free cycle due to a clinic cock-up).  I had also spent a lot of money finally diagnosing what was wrong with me.  I just wish I had done this earlier and then may have carried to term one of my pregnancies.

I believe that generally speaking women over 43 have a better chance conceiving naturally - however that is if nothing is wrong with either the woman or her partner and even then, the chances are pretty slim (sadly) for the majority of 43 plus women.

Daisy
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## Sally2 (Nov 24, 2006)

Daisy -

You seem to be quite knowledgable about all of this and I was just wondering....

I've done two IVF's and both resulted in a good egg production, excellent fertilization rate, and three blastocysts put back each time. Am now waiting for Tuesday, when I can test. (Though sorely tempted to take an early urine test - instinct tells me not to though, I'm just so used to big fat NOS from urine tests and I know the clinic would like me to wait, though would be interested in your views here too..)

But given my blastocyst production, doesn't that indicate that my eggs are pretty good for my age?


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## clare2 (Aug 1, 2006)

Hi Daisy

Thanks so much for your reply, it is much appreciated. 

We're now thinking about DE. The cycle at the Lister did not work (8 eggs collected, 5 fertilised, 3 went to blast, two blasts put back).

My husband and I are now having karotype test plus I'm being tested again for antiphospholid antibodies. The consultant at the Lister said we'd had just about every test going (nothing found) and wasn't sure what else to suggest apart from karotype. ARGC found I had higher levels of NK cells but this was borderline -12.5 when they look for 12 or under as normal. 

I've now been told by a couple of fertility consultants that you can respond well to drugs, produce a lot of eggs/embryos, take them to blast but they still may not be 'normal' due to age - they seem to think that is the most likely scenario for me as they can't think of anything else. If karotype comes back normal we'll definitely try DE. 

thanks
Ex


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi Elena,

Sorry to hear about your bfn. Finding answers to these mysteries is so difficult. Just to say firstly that karyotyping is irrelevant if you are doing DE (only relevant for your DH) as you will not be using your eggs.

I am sorry I go on and on about testing but I wonder if you really have had every possible test? Certainly you should be doing more than antiphsopholipid antibodies. You would be advised to have a full thrombophilia screen (clotting) which would include MTHFR, anticardiolipins, lupus anticoagulant, activated protein c resistance, factor v leiden etc etc. I would also recommend ANAs, RA, bacterial infections checks (ureaplasma, mycoplasma), Thyroid etc. etc.

In addition uterine checks if you haven't already had them (e.g. hysteroscopy). How was your lining? Did you achieve a triple stripe etc. etc. How is your DH's sperm? Has he had a dna fragmentation test etc. plus the karyotyping your doc. is suggesting. Here is a list of tests.

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=80433.0

You have had an abnormal NK result so I am not sure why you did not take any meds (e.g. steroids) to address this?

It is true that you can have a seemingly good response to ivf, but still have chromosomally abnormal embryos, especially over 40. However, it is good to do as much testing as poss. as these issues will affect a DE cycle as well.

I know I go on and on about testing, but it is from bitter experience!

I really hope you will find success very soon.

Best wishes,

Daisy
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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi Sally,

It is great that you respond so well in your ivf cycle, and I really hope that this cycle is successful.

However, even though you do respond v. well and produce blastocysts it cannot tell you whether your embryos are chromosomally normal. Sadly, into one's forties, a very high proportion of eggs may well be aneuploid (abnormal) and even though going to blastocyst is a good sign, it is no guarantee of euploid (chromosomally normal) embryos. That said, it depends on whether you wish to continue trying with your own eggs again. If so, I would recommend that you and your DH have some eliminatory infertility/implantation failure testing to make sure there are no other issues other than age and/or bad luck.

I have responded similarly to Elena. Through my own bitter experience, I only discovered I had other issues besides age after 4 miscarriages including DE. I would definitely recommend that you and your DH have further testing if possible before continuing either with your own eggs or DE if that is something you may want to do.

The GP may be willing to do many of these tests, while others could be done possibly through your clinic or a private doc. (e.g. *******).

Here is a list of tests, which include karyotyping for your and DH (to check for genetic isues) thyroid, uterine, clotting, autoimmune, sperm issues etc. All of these can be a cause of implantation failure/infertility. How was your lining/triple stripe? Has your DH had a sperm dna fragmentation test? How is his sperm? Did you have good progesterone support and levels in 2ww? etc. etc.

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=80433.0

Of course your issue may just be age and bad luck. However, I would def. recommend eliminating some of the common causes of failure if you intend to continue (own eggs or DE).

Best wishes and good luck,

Daisy
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## susiewoosie (Dec 9, 2006)

Gosh all sounds like mixed results. 
I've just had my first IVF at Lister, I did try earlier this year but had to abort treatment half way through due to an intrauterine (spelling?) polyp and septum dividing my uterus. All sounds awful but after six months of four ops I was ready for my first try.
Four follicles, one egg recovered, fertilized, implanted now I'm in my fourth week of gestation/sixth pregnancy. All signs good and I'm well apart from starting to feel a odd in the morning.
So at 44, feeling very healthy and now a bit chubby. I was about to go to NYC for egg donation as my next step.
Just wanted to share a good positive experience.
I found ADS for prescriptions to be excellent, Lister is very expensive.
Good luck girls, it does work, stay positive, happy and healthy.

Someone told me - 'What the mind can perceive  the body can achieve.'
Stay stress free (tricky) but very positive as possible.


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