# Public Relations Assistants required!



## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Hi team!

After the success of the workshop weekend, Megan and I are getting our heads together as to how to let more people know about the next one. I'll say again that it's not about the money, but is about ensuring that as many people as possible know that help is at hand.

Megan has kindly offered to put her excellent Marketing skills to use by composing a letter that could be personalised and then sent to a fertility clinic, accompanied by some literature, in the hope that personal recommendation by a former patient might incline them to stick the poster up in their waiting room.

Whether or not you have attended my workshop, Meredith's, or not at all, matters less than whether you believe that there is simply not enough help out their for women in our situation. If you would be willing to send a copy of this letter to your old clinic(s) please let me know, and Megan and I will co-ordinate getting stuff to you.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and pm me if you're in a position to help!

Thanks again my luvly madies,

MM xxx

 * Please note this is a third party workshop service and is not in any way related to services provided by Fertilityfriends.co.uk


----------



## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi MM

I'm not speaking as a mod here but as someone who has thought long and hard about stuff like this.

Do you think that any clinics would be willing to have your services advertised? The reason why I say this is that a lot of clinics don't seem to like people knowing about those of us whom have stepped off the treatment treadmill for one reason or another. If a valuable service like yours was displayed in a fertility clinic do you think there is a possibility that the people who work there may see this in a negative light for their patients who are undergoing treatment? And I hate to add this but the thought did occur to me - that seeing something like this may make people who are undergoing assisted conception feel even more concerned about their own treatment (remembering how it is with hormones etc). The flip side is some would view it with positivity because it would show them there is potentially light at the end of the tunnel - 'if' the clinic allowed your literature to be displayed.

Cynical me says infertility is a big business - before anyone jumps on me I want to say that I am glad I had the chance to go through the IVF rollercoaster because it gave me hope where there was absolutely none before - and for that precious gift of hope I am still grateful! Also I know so many lovely people who have had success with treatment. Sadly though I know many lovely people who never had the same success - and know there are so many more of us out there, and often wonder how they are coping.

I don't even know if I could write to my old clinic asking them to consider your suggestion either honey, I am so sorry about this. The way I feel right at this moment in time I never want to have anything to do with them ever again if I have any say in it - this is almost 2 years down the line from the last shot at IVF... so sorry if this causes you any offence or distress in any way MM, I really am - but I would rather be honest and upfront and truthful with all of you here than any other way.

Gosh, reading all this back makes me sound like a doom and gloom merchant about your idea - it isn't meant this way at all. Of course its important people out there in our shoes know about your services. Of course its important to spread the word - I think I am just unsure about approaching an IVF clinic to do this?

You've given me much to ponder on this evening my lovely MM... thank you for being you, and sorry if this has all come out the wrong way. The very last thing I would want to do is to cause you any upset, especially after all the hard work you have done in putting your workshops together.

Love
Emcee x


----------



## s.a.f. (May 20, 2005)

Emcee,

Although the clinics may feel it's not appropriate to put up such posters in the waiting room, I'm sure they would be agreeable for their counsellors and doctors to have a supply of the literature to issue to patients "at the end of the road".

It was my counsellor at a clinic who gave me the literature re Meredith's workshop and it was through the counsellor's encouragement that I took the decision to attend.

S.A.F.


----------



## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

E - no offence whatsoever, and I'm sure you're right in some ways about the clinics not really wanting to 'contemplate' failure in terms of their interventions, but SAF's post gives me hope that at east some people in the clinics recognise that 'getting a baby' is not the only possible outcome of treatment..... You've raised an interesting point that Flipper raised with me the other week - why don't the clinics have a picture board of all the women who are making a good life living with childlessness'? This is simply not seen as success, but to my mind, the definition of success is far to narrow..... especialy given the statistical success rates, which we ladies know only to well. 

Anyway, no-one should feel in anyway obliged to help, I just want tho spread the message in as meaningful way as possible.....

You really haven't offended E; it's healthy to consider an idea and then to decide if it's right for you!

Big luv, 

MM xxxx


----------



## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

An interesting and important debate ladies and I don't think your comments have come out the wrong way Emcee.

As an accountant I see this as a matter of basic commerce.

Do I see clinics charging £5-10k a go for ICSI plastering their walls with this material, probably not. It's a simple marketing principle. As well all know, it's all about  "success" and the LBR. Admitting it might not work is not good for the revenue stream and for some patients, not good for their moral either.

Do I see a discreet stock for the patients for whom the clinic see as being the end of the road (delicately put if I may say so SAF) or more brutally put, damaging to the clinics KPI's or perhaps who struggle to give up despite the clinics' advice, probably.  

Maybe even for the odd clinic that actually tries to address the practical, statistical reality at the beginning of the process (if such a clinic exists), maybe this could find some space in their introductory support material.  

I found out recently that the clinic who charged me thousand of pounds for treatment and boasted of the availability of counselling in their PR material didn't actually offer access to qualified counsellors. Just nice people who were willing to listen.  Thanks, but no thanks.

The same clinic offered a wide and frankly bizarre selection of leaflets for those who'd conceived in the most unconventional, mind boggling ways but not a sod for those for whom treatment didn't work.

I think on the whole it's a broad church, we've all had different experiences (good and bad) and we all have different views and we all need different things and that's a good thing.

As the french say, viva le difference! 

flipper


----------



## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello all,

I have pm'd MM to say I will send on her letter to my clinic. I intend to send it to the counsellor who I think is often faced with people "moving on" and would perhaps refer some of the clients to the workshops.

I am sure MM and Meridith will be looking for other avenues for advertising and maybe we could all help with ideas here?

I think Emcee has a very important point about the motivation and interests of IF clinics. Flipper's marketing expertise underlines the fact that these clinics do not want to mainstream info that highlights the possibility of tx failing. IF clinics have to demonstrate the "success" of their treatment and this is demonstrated by pregnancies. (In my day, they did not even have to count live births - which was not much use to people like me who had a recurrent miscarriage issue. Has that changed?)

I am straying from MM's request for support, which I willingly offer, but I want to pick up on issues that underline the importance of this FF site as independent of the "fertility industry."

We can expect the clinics, governed by the HFEC (?) to discuss tx options and our chances of tx working. But we often need to discuss the experiences we go through within a safe environment that is free of the commercial pressures clinics work under. We need space to discuss the impact of IF on so many aspects of our lives that the "industry" has no time for. We need space to explore the choice of refusing treatment or to cease treatment, space to rage about not being able to afford treatment, space to discuss the impact of treatment and space to cope with failed treatment or of being told no more treatment is offered.

Sadly, the "industry" seems to offer little when we need to explore many of these issues. That is not because the clinic staff are uncaring, but it is because clinics are funded by NHS and/or patients to treat infertility and because they work within a budget and to targets. They are not able to help IF people cope much outside ongoing fertility tx. Yes, patients who do not choose tx or for whom tx is not/is no longer viable may be offered a few counselling sessions, but often the full impact of facing permanent childlessness hits people some time after they have stopped attending the clinic. By which time it can be too late to accept the counselling offered. Those who took up the offer may find that the sessions did not help them deal with more than the immediate aftermath of ceasing/refusing tx and that there are ongoing issues to deal with. And those affected by postcode lotteries and who cannot afford to become tx patients are often excluded at the outset from any of the associated counselling.

This site is about mutual support throughout the *full spectrum* of IF experience. People can come here when they first find out that they face IF issues. They can continue to get and give support throughout subsequent decisions and treatments. They can come in and out of the moving on board whenever they need to explore how they might face a future without treatment or without children. If and when they need to, they can stay on the moving on board for as long as they want.

It is important to enter IF tx with optimism. But we all know deep down that tx may not work for us. Statistically more of us IF patients remain childless than have children. So when we become part of the statisics that clinics would rather forget, it can only be to the good that FF has somewhere to take our disappointment, and that that somewhere includes the chance to celebrate our strength and survival as people with an alternative future.

Like Emcee, I am glad I could afford the option of tx, at least I can say I tried everything. I am sad that so many people are subject to postcode lottery and cannot afford to pay for tx. I am also glad that FF can offer me, Emcee and my other moving on friends a space that the fertility industry did not prepare us for.

I feel really positive that this moving on board may have had a part to play in getting face to face workshops going.
LoL

Jq xxx


----------



## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Ladies, 

as so often is the case, the first thing I have done this morning is grab a cuppa and read your posts - I always find it a therapuetic start to my day! To read the depth of thought and feeling and compassion in the posts on this thread really does remind me yet again what an awe-inspiring bunch of women you truly are....

Thanks for discussing this in so detailed a fashion, and for believing in the work that I am trying to do so wholeheartedly, whether or not it's for you!

Love and more, 

MM xxx


----------



## Megan10 (Jul 16, 2004)

Hi ladies,
What a wonderful debate...love the way we have these!
I think jq makes a very good point concerning directing this towards counsellors. As I was pondering this last night I decided that the best approach at the clinics I know would be to write to my consultant asking them how best they might be positioned in their clinics and suggesting that they at least forward the leaflets to their counsellors. My experience was that the counsellors were not permanent members of staff but came in one of two sessions a week. 
As with all marketing campaigns for new products you must first create awareness in your target audience. Whilst it may be unacceptable to the clinics to 'advertise' potential failure on their walls they may accept a more gentle approach, through their staff,  directly targeted to those deciding their treatment journey is or maybe at an end.

M-M I would suggest you accept any offers from those comfortable to directly contact their clinics and then we send a standard letter with a supply of leaflets either addressed directly to their counsellors or via a named key player. Of course this is just one sub-group of the target audience but one where there may be women who find this is the lifeline they are looking for.
Love MeganXX


----------



## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

I can only speak about my own counselling experiences, but regarding the counselling I have had, I feel counsellors may need a little gentle education about us, they might not even know that we're here!

At all of my IUI/IVF "debriefs", and also during my appointments with the NHS counsellor, I've found that the message has been very much "when would you like to book in for your next tx cycle?".

Maybe it's because we're unexplained and/or young (ish hahaha), but the assumption is entirely that we should keep going until either we produce a baby, or, well, I don't know, die, I suppose.

I've found that saying that we want to stop tx has produced quite a strange attitude that makes me wonder if I'm the first person to ever say it! Obviously I can't be. In both counselling sessions, it was put to me that I may regret my decision in 10 years (I've just typed and deleted three different responses in this bracket, one of which included swearing but the gist being that yes, we have to weigh up all of life's decisions, but I'm a big girl, I've clearly thought this through and god knows I've spent enough of my life on this tx treadmill to _last _ the next 10 years!). In the end, I lied to the Counseller to get her off my back, and told her that I would go away and think very hard about whether 10-years-on-me will rue the decisions of now-me, and wish I'd spent even more money/time/physical and emotional upset on humiliating treatments that generally don't work anyway. *sigh*

(I could go on about other non-useful stuff that was said to me during counselling, ie. how there are others worse off than me; did I realise that motherhood isn't all a bed of roses? and what is it that makes me think that if I have another cycle of IVF that it wouldn't work? (err...the _statistics_?) - but that would be off topic, so I won't. )


----------



## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks Megan, 

I'll design different literature for different target audiences. I may speak to my counsellor and ask what would motivate her to recommend us too. 

I already have 3 kind offeres of help, and that plus you and me, means we're already targeting somewhere between 8 and 10 clinics!

Thanks for all your help....

Love, 

MM xxx


----------



## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

PS, I can get so angry hearing the inappropriate and downright offensive responses of some 'counsellors'.. all I can say is that their are ethical and professional practitioners out there, you just have to look hard, it would seem.... I'm sorry you had these experiences Emmag, I really am!


----------



## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

I just wonder if this approach "guilts" some people into handing over another £4,000 and several months of their life when really they'd prefer not to.


----------



## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Hi there,

I have been lurking around your threads for quite some time hovering on the brink of accepting and railing against 'moving on'. I'm still hovering but in my heart of hearts I know that I am nearly ready to move forwards too.

I just wanted to say that I will happily pass on the information to my clinic. I haven't had any counselling but had a really positive and realistic meeting with our consultant. He did tell the truth that the chance of success for us is less than 5% and that he doesn't recommend trying again (crap eggs, 3 failed tx etc etc). He didn't recommend counselling but I really think that he would be supportive of telling people about your sessions MM and that although they may not put posters up, they may at the very least signpost the options.

I also want to say that I really love the honesty and intelligent debate that you ladies have and although this is the first time I have posted here you have helped me to get to the point where I can. From the bottom of my heart THANK YOU ALL.  

I hope I am able to join you again soon.

H4M
x


----------



## Yamoona (Nov 7, 2005)

Leave this one with me. I have quite a few 'counsellor' friends but they mainly deal with children. One of them however has been through what we have and I am hoping to see her at the end of the month. I will ask her advice and get back to you. 

I am happy to hand out your workshop details to my clients as I have said before but this has to be done sensitively as although I may think they need to go they may not be ready. I will also contact my regulators and see if they will run an article in their magazine so all my fellow therapists know about you. Again  this will take a bit of time as you know where I am at the moment but I will deliver at some point.

Yamoona


----------



## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

s.a.f. said:


> Emcee,
> 
> Although the clinics may feel it's not appropriate to put up such posters in the waiting room, I'm sure they would be agreeable for their counsellors and doctors to have a supply of the literature to issue to patients "at the end of the road".
> 
> ...


Agreed my lovely but I think you'll find it all depends on the outlook the clinic has... I approached my clinics' counsellor (whilst I was still a patient of theirs) and asked if she/they would consider having a few factsheets from the Ectopic Pregnancy Trust and they never bothered their backsides... sadly I know many who have had an ectopic after fertility treatment. This is just one of the reasons that I doubt they would even consider MM's workshop stuff...

H4M... thank you for your kind words! Please feel free to stick around, you are most welcome here honey.

Love to all
Emcee x


----------



## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Given advanced fertility treatments result in an usually high percentage of ectopic pregnancies you would expect them to show at least some interest emcee.  I know the past can't be used to predict the future but I reckon in this instance it probably can which is rather depressing.

Still, if just a handfull of women (or couples) benefit it's worth it.

Welcome H4M, as a fellow lurker I remember how hard the first post is, hang around for as long as you like.  I'd be fascinated to know if your consultant said why he didn't recommend counselling.

Emmag, your so called counsellor saying you'll regret it beggars belief. You suggest they need "gentle education" and I think that's extremely charitable of you. I'd like to suggest that they need a slap in the face with a wet fish (in the best tradition of Monty Python) until they can feel some kind of empathy!

flipper


----------



## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Hi Flipper

It wasn't that he said he didn't recommend counselling it's just that he didn't say anything about it at all. We had a lot to digest in the last meeting. The final blow and all that, I guess we said that we needed to go away and think about things. Maybe it just didn't occur to him to suggest it.

Thanks for the welcomes.

H4M
x


----------



## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

I was never "offered" an counselling from the unit, and although I know thay have to provide it as a legal requirement, when I decided I'd like some counselling as part of my last tx cycle, I had several phone calls ignored and had to make myself into a pain in the ass to actually get an appointment.   Now I wish I hadn't bothered, but that's not the point, is it.


----------

