# When do you know enough is enough



## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hello there,

I was just wondering if anyone out there can relate to how I'm feeling? I'm 3 self-funded IVFs down with only a fleeting BFP to show for it. My last treatment failed in November and I've spent pretty much every waking moment since then researching clinics overseas/ looking at donor eggs options / arranging blood tests etc etc... you know the drill. When we started out on this journey we said 3 treatments and then that was it. Actually, 'I' said that, I'm rather dragging my DH along for the ride on the whole thing. After every BFN the pattern has been the same. I'm in a very dark place for a few weeks (worse this time) and I throw myself straight back into arranging the next cycle of treatment. Then, after a couple of months I start to get my life back and question what I'm doing. We have a nice simple life, we both enjoy getting out into the mountains, walking the dog - we're not sure of things to do and I think I can see a happy child-free life, I just haven't quite figured out what form it might take. I hate my current career and if we don't have children then I can think about retraining. We live fairly modestly anyway but without children we won't have to worry unduly about money. I have lived most of my life in debt so that feels important to me. 

I hate what IVF has done to my life. The money spent, the friends that I just can't face seeing any more (one of my best friends is due to give birth any second now and I haven't seen her throughout her entire pregnancy and have no idea how to face up to dealing with the baby stage), the impact on my relationship with DH. IVF is by far the hardest thing I have ever been through and has impacted me in so many ways - way beyond what most people understand. I have been bitter and angry and frustrated. And yet I can't quite seem to give it up and I don't know why. 

Right now I am pretty much all set to get started with my next treatment. I have planned a hysteroscopy with an overseas clinic and then the following month, off we go on round 4. I have had a horrible day trying to figure out flights / hotels / prescriptions etc (yet another day when I should have been working) and I'm starting to get this odd sensation that I don't know whether I want to go ahead with it. Over the course of the last week I have changed from thinking maybe 2 more rounds of OE and then try DEIVF. I now feel that I can't take much more and this has to be my last go which is why I have chosen what seems to be an excellent clinic but with all the additional hassle of travelling overseas. But today I have even be questioning whether I really want to try again at all. Unfortunately In an ideal world I would just take some time out... but I'm 39 and a poor responder and I just don't feel like I have the time to spare if I really want this to work.

One thing that concerns me is that I rarely think about babies. I think about getting IVF to work. Project IVF.  Is that normal? Maybe it's just self protection... why torture yourself with something that you most likely won't ever have. I've never been particularly broody. Even when we started to try to have a baby 5 years ago, I think I was more motivated by the idea of maternity leave and finally being at home for long enough to be able to have a puppy! But IVF has made a mess of me. I know I have been totally distraught when it hasn't worked. I know I was really excited when I got that fleeting BFP.. but actually, looking back, the main overriding emotion I felt was relief that the nightmare might be over and I might have some direction back in my life. 

I have been reading the 'Moving On' thread since my last treatment failed. I have never commented because I don't feel I quite belong there yet but I feel deeply moved by what I read and the lovely thoughtful ladies who post there. But when do you say enough is enough? What is stopping me from just walking away right now? Am I addicted to the process? To beating the odds? I think part of the problem is I don't have a clear enough vision of what our child-free future would be like. I am concerned that DH and I want different things from this. I would be happy to lead a conventional life if we had a child but the trappings of convention hold no appeal to me if we have no children. I'm not saying that I want to take off and travel the world, I just know that I don't want to be a bystander in everyone else's domestic bliss. I'm tired of still being the 'child' at xmas. Every year DH and I travel down South to our respective families and because we don't have children, we are still treated as children, we get showered with unwanted gifts (please, I am a 39 year old woman... stop choosing clothes for me to wear!) and get our dinner cooked. Anyway, I digress....

I just worry that I am not paying enough attention to the little voice in my head that is saying 'actually, maybe your life could be better WITHOUT children'. I know there would be ups and downs and a lot to work through but I'm doing OK just now... why would I put myself through all this again and the inevitable slide into 'just one more round'.

I have to make a decision in the next day or so about things and I just don't know what I'm doing any more. Obviously I've only mentioned a handful of all the thoughts that have been whirring around in my head. I really hope I haven't offended anyone with what I have written. I'm just hoping that someone might be able to relate to some of this??

Janie xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie

I can definitely relate to so much in your post, I could sense myself nodding and agreeing to so many sentences.  My circumstances are different but my thoughts and emotions are almost identical.  Like you I was never really broody, never the sort to coo over other people's babies when they came in to visit at work etc, so my body 'telling' me to peruse ttc took me by complete surprise!  But now, every time I have a failed tx or I see others with their children or there is yet another announcement from family/friends I feel crushed and devastated    IF can do very strange things to our emotions can't it.

Like you, we lead quite a modest life but also a very happy one.  We've always enjoyed doing things together and spending all our time together - we're like best friends.  So then I start to question "why would I want to change that?!".  Talk about rollercoaster!  One minute I want this more than anything I've ever wanted and the next minute I can quite happily see a childfree life.  It does leave me feeling a bit  

We have 3 frozen embryos but DH doesn't want to use them, he wants tx to come to an end and for us to move on and accept it's not going to happen.  So the last few weeks have been very difficult for us and very emotional.  We've been together 15 years and this is the only thing (ttc/treatment) that has brought a barrier up between us.  I know we'll get through it whatever the outcome, but it's just very sad.  Either way tx will come to an end this year.  Also like you, I'm always living in hope that by some miracle I happen to fall pregnant naturally, so every month there is disappointment.  I don't know why I do it to myself as the chances of a natural pg are slim to none!

I've also started browsing the 'moving on' board, in fact I very nearly posted on it today but then changed my mind at the last minute and came over here instead.  I've also been looking at the 'More to Life' website in preparation.  My head feels a mess too.

I could go on and on, but I'd probably take up several pages!  I just wanted you to know that I understand and can completely relate to how you're feeling.

 xxx


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## wobs (May 28, 2007)

Hi ladies

I totally agree with you both.  We've had a silly number of treatments....and Janie yes I often wonder do I just want to beat the odds/the process and I also often wonder if them/why not us....

I'm also not ready to go to the moving on board, though my DH is I know.  He is fed up with the amount of money we had spent.  If we had a reasonable chance of success I know we'd try again, but we don't.  

Nosilab that must be hard trying to decide whether to move on or not when you have frosties.  Especially when you are in different places with your thoughts.  DH has said no more treatment but is happily humouring me while I try and find out whether there are any more avenues.... He sees no hurry but Janie like you I am 39, with low reserve....See that sounds like I want more treatment....but the reality is I don't think I do.

IF is very confusing!

Just wanted to add my random thoughts/witterings.  It is clear you are not alone.

Hope you both find peace from whatever decisions you make
Wobs


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab and Wobs, thanks so much to both of you for your posts. I was feeling pretty manic when I wrote it... I think I was experiencing the first surges of positivity that I had felt since November and it left me feeling almost deliriously confused. 

Nosilab, I really don't know how I would feel with 3 frosties good to go. That must be really hard. Is your DH trying to protect you from the pain of another round of treatment? Or is it just that time has moved on and he isn't in the same place as he was when you started this process? Either way, it must be hard... I don't know whether I should really say this but surely there is a pretty good chance of success from 3 blast frosties? Have you been able to get any closer to a decision this week? 

Sometimes I think that it's odd that I'm STILL asking myself the same question I was asking myself in my twenties.. ie. do I really want children? I think most of my friends felt like this. They then made the decision to try and it happened... and that was that. But for me, when I eventually met the right man, then spent 2 years trying to persuade him we should try, then we tried.. .and nothing... and then wasted another 2 years not getting help because I still wasn't sure how badly I wanted it (or maybe wasn't willing to admit it... I just don't know). And then I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to figure out how much I want children... enough to have IVF? Enough to use up every last penny of our savings and more? Enough to have treatment abroad?? Enough to have donor eggs? .. and so it goes on. It's like someone is holding out a carrot and keeps moving it further and further away. How much do you want it? Oh, that much NO, can't have it... This much??.... etc etc.

I have also had a little look at 'More to Life' ... I guess it's just good to know that these things are there for when we make our final decision. It's funny, I remember looking through all the boards when I first started on this journey and wondering whether I would ever end up on these particular boards... well here I am!

Wobs - it sounds like we are in a very similar place.. maybe I'm just a few steps behind you. You certainly have been through the mill with treatment  . Have you considered donor eggs at all or do you not feel this is an option. I looked into DE quite a bit after my last tx failed and initially thought I would try that if next round doesn't work. Now I'm not so sure. Not because I have a problem with DE (at all!), it's just that I'm trying to listen to that voice in my head that is trying to show me that a life without children will be OK, no, not just OK, but could be really great.

I have had an odd couple of days. After several days of deliberation I finally booked flights to go to the clinic I have chosen for a hysteroscopy. If I am truly honest with myself, whilst I have my doubts, I will probably end up having treatment there in the next couple of months. But I am trying to be clear with myself that this is the last time. My counsellor told me to stop trying to 'decide' when to give up treatment because I would know when I couldn't handle any more... but is that good advice? I mean surely it could be more liberating to choose to walk away before you are completely broken? I honestly don't know. IF has been such a big part of my life, I actually wonder what I might do with all that spare time and not pouring every spare pound into the IVF fund. 

So after I'd organised my trip, DH and I took off for the weekend and booked a rare bargain break hotel weekend so we could go cross-country skiing. DH booked it as a treat but mainly because I think he is trying to show me what we can do if we walk away from IVF. It was lovely, just me, DH and the dog and miles of perfect white snow. Felt great to get some exercise after festering since my last treatment failed. It was exhilarating. There were kids in the hotel with stressed out Mums. I found myself watching them carefully - I think I noticed every little hug and mum/child 'moment' as well as all the screeching and tantrums! Didn't really help me to answer my own questions. 

I'd carefully turned off my phone whilst I was away as really needed a couple of days of feeling emotionally stable. Was a good choice. When I eventually switched it back on on Monday there was a photo of one of my best friends newborn baby and accompanying story of labour etc. Set me back quite a bit to be fair.

So here I am, off to Greece next week, possible IVF in Feb / March, possibly not... trying to figure it all out..

Keep in touch ladies??

Janie xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies I too can relate to what is being said. I too am not sure when enough is enough. I took last year off to "figure things out" and it didn't help! I have 3 frosties and I want to use them but scared they won't warm up and want to grow in the warmth of my womb. Been down that road before and I don't want to go there again, I guess because I know that if it doesn't work then I will have to think about another cycle. I am not sure we can afford it or if DH would want to continue.

IF is a confusing and a real confidence breaker.

I hate my job and just turned 40 so now more than ever I need to figure out what road to turn down or up as the case may be.

Janine I am sorry I can't offer any words of wisdom but follow your heart. I am still trying to accept my body and it's failures  
I too have close friends with babies one made me a Godmother and I spent very little to no time with them, I just can't bring myself to do so. Wobs I remember you from previous threads  

I have so much going through my mind right now I don't even know where to start. I just wanted you to know Janine that you are not alone my dear and as I read your post i thought it was me writing it  

If I find any words of wisdom I will sure to post. Have a great night ladies.


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## crazyroychick (Aug 21, 2012)

Hi ladies, just wanted to reply, we have had 3 failed fresh ICSI cycles and 1 failed FET.

Been going round in circles, do we try donor sperm? Do we have the money to continue? Can I really put myself through this heartache again? I would keep going forever if I thought I would get my miracle baby eventually but I think deep down I know enough is enough.

We have started making enquiries into adoption but I am still so unsure about everything, why is this all so hard xx

Lots of    to you all xx


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## wobs (May 28, 2007)

Hi Ladies

Janie - sounds like you've made a decision - well done. Interesting that your counsellor said stop trying to make a decision you'll know.  After posting my last post, DH & I went on a long snowy walk and eventually made a joint decision not to pursue anything IVF related for the moment.  If technology changes/we change our minds we can always try again but I think I am beginning to accept that for us if it was going to work it would have worked already...Re: donor eggs - if we thought I was the answer we would go for it.  The ARGC think our main problem is my immunes levels.  We both think it is a combination of v v poor sperm, plus immunes plus probably my eggs.  ARGC suggested we could try surrogacy but as our embryos rarely make it past day 3 I think there are more problems than my immunes... If money was no object we would try once more at the ARGC - then we would have had 3 full goes with immunes treatment - but it is a ridiculous amount of money and we just can't justify spending that money anymore.
And as you said originally Janie - actually do I really really want children any more. Yes I am worried about growing old and being lonely but that is no reason to try again.
Your weekend again sounds nice - did you do that in the UK?  I've always fancied cross country skiing - but does look far more exhausting than standard skiing which I love.

JBT - hi!!!  Lovely to hear from you.  So sorry your job is no better - I think you didn't enjoy it before.  I've been lucky and been able to take a bit of time out (we sold our house) and gave up my full time teaching job which was exhausting me and I too didn't like it....I've had some time out and now am doing supply teaching.  It is great to do the teaching without all the extra hours.  I appreciate I am in a lucky position for now until we buy a house again not to have to work my guts out full time but it is giving me a real insight into what I really want to do with my life - and the job is WAY down the list!  For now I'm enjoying popping in to different schools, doing my thing and coming home.  Is there any way you could look at different jobs/careers?  I stayed where I was for a couple of years more than I should have because I was scared to leave - but now I am SOOOOO glad I did. My life has changed so much and I feel so much better in myself.

CrazyRoyChick - sorry - I do a good line in going round in circles too.... Are you both open to using donor sperm.  It is likely you will have a higher success rate.  With adoption too though it is a long journey you will get there in the end.  DH not keen on donor sperm and adoption not for us either.    So I guess that is the decision you need to make. Some people want a baby that has a genetic connection and some are happy not to.  Why not post on the donor boards or have a read?

take care all
Wobs


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Janie

I think it was a very brave post to write.For many people here the baby is the be all and end all, and that’s all they think about, but like you my focus has largely been on IVF - the process, the various options available, dealing with the fall out when it doesn’t work etc. I wasn’t particularly maternal when I was younger and didn’t dream of the day I would have children of my own. It was always a bit of a vague notion – something that could possibly happen.

It was only after getting married and then watching some of my friends have children that I got the bug. I can still remember that primal urge to have my own and we soon started trying. No doubt if it had happened back then all would have worked out fine, but IF gives you more time to think than people without IF issues. I find my own drive to have children waxes and wanes. Sometimes the thought of not having children feels devastating, other times I am almost ambivalent. It’s hard to admit that, I think there’s a huge expectation that anyone going through  TX ‘should’ be prepared to do anything to have a child. 

It’s further complicated when you’re in your late 30’s/40’s. There doesn’t feel to be time to take a break and figure out what you want. There’s always that fear that if you don’t give it one more shot you’ll regret it, I know that’s how I feel and that usually overrides that little voice that asks whether it's really what I want. I don't feel I could admit my doubts to my hb, he's far more ambivalent about having children already and I worry that if I voiced the possibility I'm not always 100% sure he'd take that as me not wanting to continue.

Too often life gets put on hold and it can feel scary to contemplate what comes next. Like you, if we aren’t successful I feel like I need to almost reinvent my life. I neither love nor hate my job but it brings little sense of satisfaction. Whilst there are good things in my life, they don’t feel enough somehow. At the minute I feel in limbo, a bit directionless; at least IVF gives me a focus, a project! Does that sound awful?

I do think there is a degree of self-protection in not thinking too much about a baby. It can be painful to when you know it might never happen. But I also think there is so much to take in with IF and all the options that it can be easy to lose sight of what it’s all about. I think I would go into shock if we ever did have a BFP!

It should never have been like this, should it ladies? I hate what IF has done to us all, I hate the difficulties it can bring to friendships which always seemed unshakeable. I hate how it can undermine us and make us question ourselves. I hate how it can feel like life is passing us by sometimes.

Nosilab – as always, so much of what you write resonates with me!

Wobs - It sounds like you've done a lot f soul-searching and made some good decisions which are allowing you to enjoy life more. I think that's brilliant - change can be scary but it sounds like its worked well for you  

JBT - Like you I really struggle to with being around friends with children, sometimes it's just too hard isn't it? Do what you need to do, it's not unusual for the role of Godmother to be a fairly token one these days anyway.

CRC - Hey there, I've seen your name on a few other threads. It's awful to feel stuck in that cycle isn't it? There are no clear answers, no easy decisions.

AFM - we're gearing up for a FET, I can't summon the same excitement I felt before other cycles and don't know whether it's because I've had enough or whether I'm just so used to it not working that I expect this one not to. Adoption isn't an option - hb is not up for that. In some way I'm relieved, it takes the decision away from me but I'm sick and tired of people telling me that's what we should do, that it's what they would do had they not been able to have children. The unspoken judgement that comes with that statement is hard to take.

Take care all

Jen


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Ladies

Thanks Wobs I am in the process of trying to change jobs, new industry new everything! It's just as hard as this damn IF  
I am however being hopeful. Really happy to hear you moved on from your job I remember you were not happy either. Enjoy your new endeavour!

Moonshadow you hit the nail on the head... I understand about the adoption issue as well, my husband is not warm to that idea, not sure I am either. So it takes the pressure off me to make that call. Also he has a son, we aren't close never have been never will be. He's 15 and lives in the states with his mother who is a real piece of work! 

I have been having a really hard few days just thinking about where I am going to go... I wish you all good luck on your decisions...

Keep in touch


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry to butt in but JBT where have you been? How is your mum? Sorry you are still stuck in your job but I'm taking it as a good sign in general that you are back on FF.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I've thought of you often over the last year.
Love katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

awww Kat thank you for asking, i missed you ladies but needed to take some time off while i dealt with my mom' s diagnosis and my living arrangements with my father in law. 

First my mom is doing great! She just passed one year after her surgery and she is cancer free!
Father in law still with us now he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and will soon begin treatment. 
I needed to return to ff because i am sinking and need to make some decisions. Not sure i can do any procedures with my current living arrangement so i need the support once again  

How have you been Kat? i too have thought about you over the past year.

I am back and i am still struggling with this deadend job but i now realize it' s all a crutch that links right back to my IF insecurities, lack of confidence etc. I took a break from the whole fertility treatment for a year but i am 40 now and i need to make some decisions. is it enough or do i go just once more?

anyway i' ve rambled enough. nice to hear from you Kat how have you been?


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies...

Hi Janie, yes there probably is a certain element of my DH trying to protect me, he doesn't like seeing me that upset and wants things to get back to 'normal'.  Although the bottom line is that my DH has never wanted children, and so we've always been in a different place in terms of treatment and what to do or not do, so it's been a difficult journey right from the start.  Still no decision as yet sadly, still all up in the air    DH has his counselling appt on Tues, we then have a joint appt on the 13th Feb.  How are things with you know?  How are you feeling?

Hugs to everyone


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Just a quick hello - I recognise some faces from various threads I've either read or been part of at one time or another - hellos to Nosilab, Wobs and Squirrel in particular!

It's soooo difficult and I understand alot of what people are saying, having thought it myself at one time or another.

I have had 4 treatments (all BFN) and a miscarriage prior to all this IVF nonsense!  In total over 6.5 years of trying now and the treatment taking up 2.5 of it.  It's exhausting and I can't remember life not being focussed on the latest advice/treatment to help a couple conceive.  At the end of this one, I'm literally speechless - I so thought the ARGC would 'sort it' for us.  My counsellor has also said to me have you thought about making time for a baby - i.e. literally carving out time as we are both so busy all the time.  This made me think all the questions we are talking about here - there is a part of me that wants to have had a child 5 years ago so they can play with their cousins, there is a part of me that would dearly love to see the back of ever thinking about it again, there's a part that really wants the miracle to happen.  All emotions, all sides.

SO where does that leave me... I took time out for the last cycle (in fact been out of the job scene since March 2012) and we have moved south.  So life is being kept busy with trying to find a job.  I can't bring myself to think there will never be another go.  I would dearly like, if money and hurt were no object, to do it all again at the ARGC.  So I am doing all I can to enjoy life for now.  Concentrating on unfulfilled ambitions (I've always wanted to get much fitter, and the stop-start nature of exercise whilst trying to do IVF has been awful) and trying to find a life plan that enhances my chance of conception but doesn't rely on it for my future happiness would be a good target to aim for.  And to get an interesting job - I do IT, which I love in many ways - but it has to be interesting IT!!  Not banks, but charities or education would be right up my street.

Anyway, enough of me - just want to send warm hugs to everyone and say you are not alone.

Love Mrs P xx


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## Ivfmamma (Jun 10, 2012)

Hi Janie, just wanted to give you a big  

We have been ttc for forever now with no baby but have had 3 losses & I keep sitting thinking can i do this again? 

every time something goes wrong I get really depressed, & throw myself into trying again, I had my miscarriage only 8 days ago yet I've already booked in for my follow up at clinic to start again, it's ridiculous what ivf does to you. 

I eat, sleep & bloody breathe it at the moment & it's not healthy.

My life is one bitter mess, can't see a pregnant person never mind speak to one, I don't care for anyone who is pregnant, I hate anyone with kids (ie happiness) I often think what the hell has happened to get to this?!

I know I'm not ready to give up yet, I don't think I ever will be? but it's hard to keep going through all this pain.

What I don't understand though is - if there was a god up there, why does he make women who are desperate have to make a desicion to give up? it's just not fair.

I hope you make the right desicion x


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## Faith1234 (May 15, 2011)

Hey Ivfmama- What are you doing on here?
You ok

janie73- I am so familiar with your comments, I ranted earlier today on here (I feel better for telling my story and being honest)  

xxx


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## Ivfmamma (Jun 10, 2012)

Hey February - I often lurk round the other boards (just not the pregnancy ones)

I'm fed up at the minute, just keep telling myself I'm not doing this anymore can't bare to go through any more bad news. but I'm being daft as I won't give up, i just need to have a little talk with myself I think xx 

How are you? xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ivfmamma said:


> My life is one bitter mess, can't see a pregnant person never mind speak to one, I don't care for anyone who is pregnant, I hate anyone with kids (ie happiness) I often think what the hell has happened to get to this?!


This is how I feel too Ivfmamma



Ivfmamma said:


> What I don't understand though is - if there was a god up there, why does he make women who are desperate have to make a desicion to give up? it's just not fair.


I struggle with this one too, if 'He' is up there watching down on us, why does he make us suffer when we want this so much and put ourselves through so much to get to that end goal, when there are others out there who don't really want another child (sighs and rolls their eyes at yet another positive pregnancy test!) or worse still abuses their child/children! How on earth does Mother Nature decide who does and who doesn't 'deserve' a baby! Hmm rant over, that's probably why I'm not religious 

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies, I've been reading all your comments over the last week. I'm currently in Thessaloniki for a consultation and aquascan. I had such an emotional day yesterday. Such conflicting emotions. Anyway, it was really good to sit down in a cafe and feel slightly less alone in my thoughts and feelings. The clinic were completely excellent but I am still struggling with whether I am doing the right thing. I've been sitting in current cafe far too long on just the one latte so time to move on but will be back again later as so many of your comments that I wanted to reflect on and for once I have a little time to do this properly.
 to you all.
Janie xxx


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Janie, I think it sounds to me like you want to stop and that is actually OK. I think we end up on this road all starting out saying we'll give it three goes and then move on but it get's addictive and you end up carrying on and on and on. It's not even like you can say that's it my bodysadly can't do it because then it's , use donor eggs, use a surrogate, it goes on and on and on. Sadly there are people who will keep pushing you to try again and again. I certainly know I've felt very bullied by some to try donor eggs etc. At the end of the day though it is OK to say I've tried my best, sadly it hasn't worked and I want my life back. Don't feel you've failed if you make this choice. I don't know you but reading your posts it seems to me you want to say no more. Good luck with whatever you decide, it is of course only a choice you can make.

Maisy


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Janie and everyone else too. After reading Maisyz post I just felt the need to add my thoughts too.

I´m at the moving on stage and I´m at piece with that decision now and its been over a year since my last BFN so I´m in a different place to the rest of you and I don´t envy any of you   

It was Maisyz comment that its OK to stop and she is right it really is ok, and actually its a huge relief. And someones counsellor said to stop thinking about it because you´ll just know when its time to stop, and I agree with that too.

IVF became my life as you all will understand and I know I lost track of the point. At some stage in the process, I don´t know when, I started doing it to beat IF rather than to have a family. I didn´t want to be a failure and the only way to be a success was to have the baby that I planned. What on earth would I do with all my time without IVF? Rather than ´what will life be like without a child?´. I stopped seeing a BFP as a life changing event involving a baby, then a toddler and then God forbid, a teenager one. It was just a need to not fail anymore. Don´t get me wrong, seeing babies and pregnant women always got me thinking about my future and made me sad to think what I  won´t have and in some weird way, the actual process of IVF gave me a purpose and a reason to get up. Without IVF, what was the point of my life? I felt I had nothing else so giving it up would leave me with nothing. 

After my 9th et I knew that was it, no more! Then they called to say I had a frostie and I was disappointed. I realised I wanted it all to stop but thought it couldn´t with one glimmer of hope on ice still. That might sound crazy to some of you but I suspect not to others. Anyway, after BFN#9 I wanted to crack on with FET just to get it over with and draw a line under tx. Things were then taken out of my hands and I had a breakdown (not related to IF at all) and now, a year later I´m not allowed to go back for that frostie yet. I know deep down that one day we´ll have our frostie destroyed and its just that I´m not allowed to make that decision yet.

So, here I am, moving on. I find cross country skiing a great help for my moving on process actually. We go out and do 25 km and for the first couple of km we a dodging families with toddlers splattered everywhere crying because they are cold and tired. Thats the point at which I think ´phew, I´m glad thats not me´. I do still have moments of terrible sadness and wonder what my life will be like in years to come. My sister lives on the other side of the world, my parents will be gone one day too and we are not close at all to DHs sister so our old age will be just us. I admit that scares me silly sometimes. For now though, its OK to be childfree, we don´t use ´childless´as it sounds so negative. I don´t suppose our life will ever be ´better´than if we had had kids its just different and its taking some work for me to find my place in the world. DH has it sorted already but for me, I´m still not quite sure where my place is in society.

I am feeling less and less of a bystander these days though. We have all been on this journey so long that for many of us I suspect the being mums together with our friends isn´t possible anymore. If I had a baby now it would be years younger than most of my friends kids so I suspect I´d feel equally lonely and apart from everyone still. I nolonger have the feelings of jealousy over other peoples happy families but I do still beat myself up for failing, but I suspect that is part of IF, whether you have a baby or not, IF takes some of your self esteem I think. I feared I would be plagued by ´what ifs´if I stopped trying but I never ever question it and I never feel regret for stopping as it was the right thing for me at that time. I feel regret sometimes for not being strong enough to keep going, but thats different. 

I think the most important thing for you all to remember when you are at this crossroads is that there is no such thing as a wrong decision. Whatever you decide to do is clearly what was right for you at that moment. And also nothing is irreversible however old you are and whatever stage in the process you are. Whatever you all deicide to do is right for you and don´t forget that   

Obviously I´m not expressing an opinion on any of your situations, its all so personal to each of us, I just felt I wanted to post. Its rare to read such a stimulating and interesting conversation written by a group of such articulate women   .

Sorry, I realise that was very long but be thankful I forgot loads of the things I wanted to add  
Lots of luck to all of you, where ever you go next, 
Katxxx

PS. Janie - where do you live if you can pop off xcountry skiing for a weekend?


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies. It's been strange reading through everyone's comments. When I first posted I really worried for a couple of days that I might have offended people by even expressing my doubts about how much I really wanted this. So it's been so reassuring to know that other ladies have been able to relate to what I'm saying. I think the thing is that I really just don't know how I feel any more. Jen (Moonshadow), so much of what you said mirrored my feelings it's almost spooky! A big part of what I'm feeling is a fear that I will regret it if I don't give it one last shot. And I just don't feel like I have time to wait and try and figure out how I feel  - if that's even possible. 

Nosilab, Moonshadow - you both mentioned that your DH's are at best ambivalent towards treatment - which is the same as for me. Moonshadow, I TOTALLY get the comment about not daring to express your doubts to them else they see it as a sign that you are ready to move on. I guess I have always felt that mine would get on board when it became a reality... I mean... he didn't want a dog until I forced the issue and now he is totally in love with the mutt... So he's always been fairly disengaged from the whole process and I essentially go through all the turmoil on my own. I have friends who think his attitude is terrible but I actually don't feel that way. I guess I just feel grateful that I have a husband that loves me enough to know how important this is to me. But I think he mainly thinks I just need to get this out of my system so we can move on. I did have a fleeting BFP after my second IVF (I was already bleeding when I took the test so never really had much chance to get excited) but to be honest, all the colour drained from DH's face! I think part of my doubt has started to come from thinking about him more in this. Neither of us are getting any younger, if we have a baby now then that's really us all tied up until we're in our 60s. I wanted a baby 5 years ago but do I really want one still now?... what if things are more complicated... if there were problems... it wouldn't have been a joint decision but something I forced. What would that do to us? Sigh. Is part of why I want a baby to avoid having to deal with all the emotions about other people's babies? If so, I'm surely through the worst of that now. There really can't be many more announcements to come. Or maybe it's so I don't have to think about what I'm going to do with the rest of my life... because I won't have time to think about that any more?! Actually, I don't think that is the case. I think for the first time since this all started, I am actually starting to see a future that fills the void that I previously saw ahead ... even to the point that I feel a slight 'loss' when I think we might actually be successful and I won't get a chance to live that life.

Nosilab, I hope your counselling appointment(s) go well and give you some clarity. I'm interested that your husband is going and then you are going together. That sounds good and I wonder whether we should look at this given what I've just said.

Adoption isn't an option for us either. Mainly because DH isn't up for it but also because I know that when I do finally walk away from this then I just wouldn't have the energy for the process. It's at least one decision I'm clear about and happy with. I think I have probably got to the same stage in my head about donor eggs. Maybe if the maternal urge was overwhelming then I would feel differently. 

Wobs - it sounds as though you are starting to find peace with your decision. I hope it stays that way. 

Wobs / Kat - you both asked about where I live in reference to skiing. I live in Scotland - near Stirling. So we don't have snow all the time and you just have to drop everything and go when it's here. The last couple of weeks have been great. I flew to Greece on Sunday but on Saturday we were skiing in clear blue skies and knee deep snow. I was cursing having to leave with such great snow so close to home!! Kat - I'm very jealous of your snow options!!

Kat - I'm so glad that you have posted on this thread. I have been stalking the moving on thread for a while - I'm sorry if that seems weird. Your posts are always so thoughtful and considered. I guess I have always noticed the skiing references (3 sets of skis lined up in order...) and I can really relate to the pangs. Actually, you can probably understand why I am reading the moving on thread... it's because I guess I am dipping my toe to make sure that it's safe on the other side - and maybe to try and understand how you all reached that decision.  Your words on this thread have particularly helped me given you have made that decision to move on and can look back now with a 'safe' distance of hindsight. 

Maisyz - I can see why you would think that deep down I actually want to stop. I honestly don't know whether that is true. I am currently sitting in my hotel room in Greece and fly home tomorrow. I was here to have a scan / aquascan / hysteroscopy before starting treatment. I was desperately unsettled when I arrived. I was wandering the streets questioning what on earth I was doing here. I missed my dog and my DH (in that order!!) and just couldn't work out how I had got to this. If I had the option I might well have just called a day to the whole thing and got on a plane and come home. But I didn't of course. The clinic were excellent and I can feel a slight shift in my emotions. I think it might be 'project IVF' taking hold again. This might sound odd but I actually forced myself to have a look at one of the pregnancy threads tonight... where the ladies who have just had their babies are posting. I needed to allow myself to see how that felt because I spend my entire life avoiding anything to do with pregnancy and newborns and I worry that I have built up too effective a barrier and one day when it's too late to have more treatment, it will come crashing down on me and leave me destroyed. 

I think in the end I will probably have this one last round of treatment.  If it's really true that you just know when enough is enough then maybe I am just a short distance away from that. I definitely feel differently now than after my first two cycles - I am much more accepting of the idea of leaving it behind. But perhaps I am not quite there yet.

Mrs Pootle, IVFMamma, JBT, February1 and to anyone else I have missed.   

Take care everyone
Janie xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

something else just occurred to me...(I know, enough already!). re: all the comments about not having children when we are old and grey... I think the same thing often enough. My Dad is almost 80, my sister is also on the other side of the world. DH isn't close to his family... so it's likely to be just the two of us and that scares me. I worry all the time that something will happen to him and then where will I be? But then I also wonder how much reality there is in the idea that children would save us from a lonely older life. I certainly haven't for my Dad). And yet there is an older lady in our village who has no children and probably partly because of that has the most vibrant life with rich relationships. I think I have managed to lay this worry to rest. Life changes slowly and we will graduate towards other people in similar situations and look out for them. And if all else fails we can all go and live together in a great big house. It will be OK. 

OK, Sex and the City has just started in Greece so I will leave you all alone and get a little blast from the past... apparently I think I'm Carrie with all this laptop on the bed typing!

Over and out xxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Good luck Janie - wishing you all the best xxx


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## wobs (May 28, 2007)

Hello ladies...just a quick post....been busy on here

JBT- so pleased your mum is ok now.  That's great news.

Kat - thank you as always for your brilliant, insightful post.  I think you summed up for me many of my emotions & feelings.  

Janie - sounds as if your visit has made things clearer so hopefully you have a way forward.  Our 8th treatment was definitely going to be our last - at the ARGC with full immunes etc as hadn't done immunes before and there were lots of issues that tests showed up with them....Anyway I then got a chemical - so we felt we had to try again.  In a way this time with an unequivocal BFN I can see it is right to stop - I don't feel I will regret it if I don't try again - but I probably would have done if we had stopped at nuimber 8 if that makes sense - like unfinished business!
Nice to be in Scotland - typical though re: leaving the snow behind!  How lovely - blue skis and knee deep snow!!! Bliss!!  mind you hard work.  Good thigh toning I guess!

Nosilab - hope counselling is helping. It's always good to talk stuff through.

Ivfmamma - hope you're doing ok.   

Hi to everyone else.

AFM curiously doing ok.  Feel v at peace and ok about stuff....bizarre....sure it will hit me at some stage but for now ok. ho hum....

take care all
Wobs


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

For what it's worth Janie, I suspect you need to get this cycle done to find closure and live with no regret. And who knows, it might be a life changing move and you'll have no need to frequent these boards again  I asked where you lived for selfish reasons, in the desperate hope it was somewhere near me. Scottish mountains are lovely though you lucky sausage. Our snow options are great I admit, but I've just totted it up and we've spent 5 hours between us clearing snow since Sunday ........ it's not always fun ;-)

Interesting what you said about old age. My parents are social butterflies and I think that may have something to do with a need to be busy. They don't have grandchildren and even if they did they would live in Oz with my sister, although she is unliky to have a baby. And since I live a flight away too, maybe they needed to fill their lives in other ways. Perhaps the same will happen to all of us too. When the time is right we'll go out and fill our lives with 'stuff' because we can. I know they have pangs of sadness about not having grandchildren but they are certainly not lonely. 

Who knows what the future holds hey.
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Ladies:

It's funny you all brought up being alone in your old age Janie I too have had thoughts about DH and I growing old together etc but he has a son so he's good. I also thought shoot what if something happened to him he is my life. My family all live in the States and my best friend just moved there too a few years ago. But you know what we will always say "what if" To your point about your parents Kat i am the opposite I see how my mom dotes over her grandkids and she has 5, and I want to experience that too. I want her to see my child and love him or her as she has loved her others. He adores her grandkids and takes care of them as if they were her own but yet still enjoy her life! I know deep down she wants me to have my own before she is to old to enjoy him or her.

I guess also I don't know anyone who don't have kids, willingly. The people I know without kids made that decision from early and they are happy with their decision. I often wish I never wanted kids so it wouldn't be so hard that I can't have kids.

Having a sad day because I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel! I want to do another cycle and just cannot possibly afford it and by the time I save for it I will be much older! A miracle will happen right   

Kat you are absolutely correct: Who knows what the future holds, since I never imagines in a million years I would be in the position.

Ladies


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

Janie - I can understand you being nervous about posting, they are difficult thoughts to have, never mind express. I too worry about the age thing, the increased chance that things can go wrong and the fact we'd be much older parents. I worry about the impact it would have on us, but also any child we did have - would they be teased, would they worry about us dying (I know I did because my parents were a bit older than other parents, yet they were only 32 when then had me!). My hb's dad has just turned 80 - it would be the same for any child we had now. 

Yet on the other hand me and hb are active, far more so than hb's parents were at our age. My own parents, now in their 70's, are very active too. My dad cycles and sails, they both play golf and walk and until recently they both skied. It is quite possible to continue to be full of live and do all the things I'd want to do with a child. That's another thing - child, singular. I always wanted more than one but unless we have twins (hopefully no more than that!) that won't happen. Yet I know plenty of people with just one child and  they are happy, healthy and well adjusted.

For every doubt I have there is a counter-argument. And for every counter-argument there is a lingering doubt.

Janie - I suspect I'm heading to the same place you seem to be. I'm not quite ready to call it a day but each cycle brings me closer to that. I suspect at some point I will just know enough is enough. We're about to start a FET cycle and whereas in the past I've felt hopeful and excited before treatment starts, I just can't summon that this time. I feel tearful and lonely. I can't quite see beyond the void but I think I'm more willing to consider that there is something else out there.

JBT - I'm close to my parents too and would love to maintain that kind of relationship for another generation. They dote on my brother's children and although there's never any pressure from them I know they'd love more grandchildren.

Kat - thank you for your long post. There was much in it that I needed to hear. At the minute I still really struggle with the jealousy when I see my friends with their families but it gives me hope I can move on from that someday. I also understood to some degree how events outside of your control can force you to stop. I had to take 18 months off from tx and spent that time in therapy dealing with non-IF 'stuff'. I regret that I wasn't strong enough to continue with treatment during that time, but I'm beginning to let go of some of the guilt. 

Wobs - I can understand the need for an unequivocal end. Our consultant has suggested a endo scratch for the FET and then if we do decide to have another cycle having intralipids. Somehow I can't let go of needing to try those things, if  they fail I will truly feel I have done everything I can. At the same time I'm not sure I could face another full cycle though.

Maisyz - I've certainly felt pressure to consider alternatives - surrogacy, adoption, donor sperm/eggs. Most of this has come from well-meaning friends but it is still painful at times. It fails to acknowledge the heartache that any of those decisions could bring, each one (with the possible exception of surrogacy) means giving up the chance of having your own child. People present the options as if you're out shopping, the shop has run out of bread so why don't you just have some cake instead? (Ok, maybe a poor analogy, it's been a long week!).

This week's felt tough. We're trying to deal with some rogue roofers (fortunately we haven't paid yet but lots of confrontational conversations on top of a very shoddy roof repair) plus a legal challenge from hb's old boss - he wanted hb to buy into his company so he could retire but his terms were beyond unreasonable. HB is now setting up a new company with another ex-employee and old boss is citing breach of contract (no employment contract exists - hb refused to sign as again the terms were unreasonable). He's also claiming breach of common law of confidentiality which is a grey area. I think he's clutching at straws but it's still a worry and an expense as we'll have to get legal advice. Sorry to dump that all here, I know it's completely off topic!

On the plus side we're off skiing this weekend, to Italy. I know there's a good number of you ladies who might want to jump in our suitcase; I wish I had room for you all! We could have skied here last weekend (we're in the North-East) but I can't wait to be in those mountains, I always feel a huge sense of peace  

Hugs to all you lovely ladies, I suspect this thread will be long-lived (at least I hope so...)

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ooh moonshadow - where? We are going to Switzerland on the Italian border and are boarding over to Italy (cervinia) .......... just because we can ;-) Be funny if we passed each other on the piste or were sat next to each other in some bar somewhere. If we are in the same place I need to know what you are wearing so I can look out for you.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

As for huge sense of peace - I was talking to my shrink about it today. I have a prolapse but for me the pain is worth it to get that freedom. She made me think where that peace comes from and I'm not sure but wondered if its something to do with very different expectation of ourselves and also what people expect from us. Whether you have a family or a mental illness for example is of no interest to anyone. Nobody cares about anything apart from having fun. I'm not sure if that's the answer or maybe it's as simple as my brain being too small to cope with deep meaningful thoughts while having a plank strapped to my feet!?!?

I also got to wondering if there are other things we can all do that give us that freedom. I didn't come up with any answers but I am keen to hear if anybody enjoys something because it disconnects them from IF completely.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat: That is a good question about enjoying something because it disconnects us from IF. Well I used to think baking was my escape but I would always spin it around and wish I had a baby girl to bake with and that got me depressed. Then I thought it was shopping but then I would think oh how wonderful it would be to shop for maternity clothes or better yet baby clothes. Then I thought it was laying on the beach (cause that's easy for us here) then I would see families with their kids playing in the sand and building sand castles. So now that you have me thinking I guess not   I gather if I continued I would find lots more things I thought made me happy and turn them into things that make me want a family more... But you know what I will think about that question, but I suspect I will come up with naught!

I would love to find some freedom and some calm re IF... 

Spoke briefly with my doctor last night as he was giving me a referral for a mammogram, since I now have history, and the unit still is in work in progress re construction. Some of you may have remembered the fertility unit here was under construction/expansion and my doctor wants the best environment for our next try whether FET or another cycle. SOrry for going off but it made start thinking again does everything really happen for a reason?

Have a lovely day ladies, and if anyone comes with activities that does make them feel at peace please share. 

JBT


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Kat - we're going to Cervinia!! That is so spooky... I'll PM you my mobile number... It would be lovely to meet up  

I'm going in a group of 4, I wear a green jacket and black trousers, my hb (Andrew - south African accent) wears a red jacket and black trousers. We're both tall (5 10" and 6ft). Not sure what our friends wear though but one is a loud Geordie  

Sorry this is on the fly, rushing off home...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Spooky. Tall but not as tall as me ;-) I'm 6ft. See you next week then. I'll pm later.


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## Carrie9152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dear All,

I am new to this site - found it too late after 2 rounds of IVF both BFN. I have just sat and read all your comments and I just wanted to shout YES as alot of the comments were as if I was saying them myself.

I am in the horrible situation of deciding to wether to go ahead and pay for the next round [the 1st 2 were NHS funded thankfully] or walk away. I completely understand the feeling of just one more go..... maybe this time....if we just tried harder.....and the agony of baby news from seemingly everywhere [even the bloody radio presenter in the car on the way to work every morning encouraging sodding phone ins because of course 'everyone' has a baby story..... ]. As we try to decide what to do I do think is it a child that I actually really want. During my 20's I never had the overwheming urge and even though I was married we never really seriously tried. At the time I was looking after my mum after my dad had passed away. Then I got to late 20's and I began to think that maybe we should.......years of trying before we finally admitted that there may be something wrong and when we found out that there was I was angry, frustrated and determined to do whatever we could to get what we wanted. I hate being around family and friends that have babies but the anger is more about why them and not me - like I have been left out of the party.

I guess what I am trying to say is I know how you feel - the idea that maybe not having a child is not the worst thing that can happen - that there is another life out there that could be just as fulfilling. I too have been in a job for many years that I now have just grown tired off, living in an area that I hate [partly because the whole time we have been trying for a baby the house next door to us has 4 different couples who have moved in, had a baby and moved on - the people there at the moment have 7 kids!! it sometimes feels that someone is having a good laugh at us].

I am at that point now that I need a complete change, new job, new house, new town - a new start. Not saying that it will be any better - just different. To go through another round will delay that. I feel that I need to move on first and then decide what to do next....

Sorry, I am rambling - I just wanted to comment that you are all not alone - the thoughts that you are having are brave and strong and that I wish you well in whatever you decide.

Caroline


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nooooo! I want to meet up with you skiing ladies...alas I suspect i am not tall enough! Seriously, lovely you guys are going to hook up. Have great trips. Hoping to book ours tonight. Can you believe that the cheapest deal I can find is in half term week. Grrrr.  Don't think i can handle all the little blighters. And teeny tiny ski kids make my heart melt. Prob not a great idea just now. Have fun both of you. Am on phone on bus home just now but will catch up with you all later. Xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Just wanted to say welcome carrie9152   it's unfortunate we have to meet here!

Kat and moonshadow very jealous of your trip! I too am way too short and i figure that weather is way too cold for an island girl like me!!! but have fun


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - I don´t have any problem accepting an invite from you to come and soak up some sun. I think your IF escapism needs to be more engrossing, something that requires concentration so that you can´t think about anything else. I was thinking about trying to learn to juggle. I realise that might sound a bit silly but at the same time it must take all of your focus so might jsut work   


Janie - maybe you can book a real last minute to zermatt or cervinia. That is bound to be cheap if it involves leaving in 2 days! Shorties welcome, we´re not that exclusive yet   


Caroline - its sad that you are at this stage but at the same time good that you might have found FF just in time.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

I want to go skiing too! Kat and Moonshadow - it would be brilliant if the 2 of you could meet up  you're going to have such an amaaaazing time.

I want to take the time to reply properly to all the new posts on here but haven't long been in and need to get myself off to bed. Before I dash off though I just wanted to say a big hello and welcome to *Caroline*, it's never too late to join FF, I'm glad you found us, it's just sad we're all here under these circumstances.

The main activity that helps calm me and is my little bit of weekly escapism is pottery! I know it's not to everyone's taste, and I've been potting for around 23 years now (yikes! Where did that time go!?) but if you get a chance to give it a go I'd highly recommend it - it's good for the mind and soul 

Right, I really am off to bed now as seriously flagging! Night ladies speak again soon


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat u r welcome anytime... well i think i found  my escape i did a step class tonight and  i was so trying toconcentrate on not making a fool of myself i didn' t have time to think abt IF or any  F  

Got thru i though i am glad i went. busted now! ok well if concentration is what i need then hmmm will think abt it

nigh ladies


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

So a FF ski weekend this year and a trip to Jamaica next year? Actually a ski weekend is not as whacky as it sounds you know. I can see my nearest slope from the sofa although its an hours drive for good skiing. And I happen to have a cabin in the mountains (remove pictures in your mind of luxury chalet and replace with glorified shed  ). We don´t have water or electricity so its true escapism. Its not far to the spa hotel though for some luxury and a somebody can drive the car there while Janie and I cross country ski there. The cross country is superb Janie and on the very top of the mountain (with a 360 degree panoramic view) is a little cabin that serves waffles and hot chocolate, and the best bit is its downhill all the way home   . All you need to do is book a Ryanair flight and you´re here!

Anyway, back to reality  . I really fancy pottery Nosilab just because it looks very therapeutic. The physical contact with something as well as the concentration must truly immerse you in what you are doing. There is workshop locally but I´m too shy to go but my friend is a potter and keep promising me a try. Maybe I need to be more forceful about it.

JBT - Step would require all my concentration too. I am truly rubbish at it. Keep at it though because even an hour a week where you are just a woman doing a step class instead of an infertile woman doing a step class will be really good for your mind as well as your fitness.

Be brave everyone, good things do happen.
Katxxx

PS: Sorry if my text is huge - something odd happening.


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Welcome Caroline!  I just read your post and it so sounds like me and how I've been feeling in between and now, possibly at the end of treatment.  Regards your move, I felt compelled to mention I moved house (north to south) last year and it was the best thing I've done in a long time.  The benefits to the mind were huge!  I suddenly remembered there were more to life than fertility.  The only thing for me was that this 'new start' compelled me to think it was 'destined to be' that this final expensive go would work - it didn't and that was hard to take.  But it was also good to recognise that I'd achieved alot in the year and had no regrets about moving.  To suffer the same blow and be in the same place in the same situation would have been worse.  I'm now job hunting, selling up the north house and moving on a bit.  I haven't said I'll never have treatment again, I'm not quite able to shut the door, but it's doubtful.

Nosilab - My 'pottery' is yoga - I've become a yoga bunny over the last 6 months.  At long last I've found something that works for me and I find really relaxing and (almost) effortless.

Hi to all the ski ladies(!) - I'm very short, very unstable on my feet and snow terrifies me!  So I think that would count me out.  Pub anyone though??   Although I've just seen NordicKat mentions Jamaica - more my bag!!

Have a lovely weekend,

Mrs P xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

We´re all going to stay with JBT next year MrsPootle. See you there


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ladies – I should be working but I just sneaked a look at this thread and feel compelled to shout yes yes yes – let’s all go to your cabin in the hills Kat! It sounds amazing! (Do you mind me asking whereabouts you are? I used to orienteer a lot so spent quite a bit of time in Norway and my best friend lives in Gothenburg). Actually.. whether this actually ever happened or not, I think what it made me feel was a huge surge of optimism, enthusiasm and excitement about the possible good things ahead and that feels important right now. I used to have so many sporty adventures with my girl pals and I miss all that. The weird thing is that despite them having kids, they are probably still all up for it… but it’s me that does the rejecting. Man, I have even rejected some friends BEFORE they have had kids because I know it’s inevitable and I’m trying to protect myself. But hey, I can do sunshine breaks too and Jamaica sounds like an adventure JBT!! 

I’ve been thinking about things that absorb me and help me to stop thinking about IF. I’m not sure I can really answer this. I know that I find most peace when I’m doing the simplest things in life. Like walking my dog and digging in my allotment. Or maybe riding my bike. I’ve had my strongest waves of positivity when the sun is shining and I can hear the birds singing. I hope that doesn’t sound too trite! But actually I probably have the most time to think then so it’s not really the same. After my last BFN we took a week of work to ‘recover’. I tried really hard to go out and ride my bike. The exercise felt good but I remember I was pretty much ‘locked up’ with anger and frustration. I was feeling so bitter towards a few individuals… things that they had said etc… things that I knew were irrational and would pass once the initial pain of the BFN had passed. So I just rode my road bike and churned it all over and felt terrible. I guess what I’m saying is that sometimes these simple activities don’t help. Maybe if I’d been doing something more encompassing then I wouldn’t have had the time to get myself into such a negative cycle of emotions. Actually, it’s funny because my DH had wanted to go mountain biking and I felt I couldn’t because it requires more determination and I suppose requires me to think more. I knew if I fell off I would be a heap on the floor and the tears wouldn’t stop. 

Carrie – welcome to the thread…. But as the other ladies have said, sorry that you have found yourself here.  I think I can relate to what you are saying about being around family and friends with babies .. and feeling left out of the party. I spend a lot of time at the moment examining my emotions to try and understand what I’m REALLY thinking. Is all the sadness and anger about not having my own baby or is it just about how unfair it is that I seemingly can’t? I feel I have been dealt a pretty poor hand on a number of aspects of my life. Don’t get me wrong, I have a lovely life but I’ve also suffered some fairly major events that none of my friends have had to go through and so I’m struggling with how I’m also the one that ends up in this situation too. I get comparing yourself to people is a very dangerous game. 

So Carrie, it sounds as though you are in a similar situation to me, changes are afoot but I think we have to remember that they can be positive. 

Mrs Pootle.. we should be inspired by you and the positive changes you have made. But I also ‘get’ what you said about then expecting IF to work. I think maybe I might be a bit vulnerable to this just now, what with changing clinics and going to Thessaloniki for my next (final?) treatment. 

Wobs – Sorry you were having a bad day honey.  I also understand your need for an unequivocal end. I guess the worry for me is what if by changing clinic and protocol I get more eggs this time? Or another chemical. If I still respond poorly then the decision to move on will be easier. As I think everyone on this thread will understand, that has to be the hardest decision to make… we never know how close we are. But I guess the reason why I am finding this thread helpful is that I think we are all recognising that having children maybe doesn’t have to be the be all and end all of life? I struggle with other threads where maybe the outlook is more that we will conquer all to have a baby. I’m not sure it’s possible and I kind of refuse to believe that without a baby I can’t be happy. I’m not being negative about such threads by the way… just that it doesn’t work for me and makes me feel awful.

Finally, I had a bit of a wobble yesterday. A colleague brought in her beautiful 1 year old daughter. Normally I manage to escape but this time I got trapped and had to coo with everyone else and I just felt awful afterwards. I guess it just left me feeling worried about going through this awful cycle again. I’m doing ‘OK’ just now. I’ve decided we will go ahead with this round… but I’m scared of losing my current frame of mind (that a child-free future will be ok…no, could be great!) and having to go through the wringer all over again. Ladies, do you think it’s possible to go through treatment and remain slightly ‘detached’? I suspect not. I already know I’m starting to feel emotionally invested in this next round.

I think I might write myself a letter which reminds me of how I’m feeling just now. The feelings of positivity, all the good things about being child-free (Kat, I’m using this term now) so that I can read it when I slide into the usual post treatment depression. Maybe just re-reading this thread will help.

Big hugs. Have a great weekend everyone. And of course a fantastic skiing holiday to those who are off!!

Kat – I honestly did look at Zermatt options but nothing doing! I like the idea of being spontaneous like that. Because I don’t have kids and I CAN be spontaneous!

Oh crikey, sorry, another enormous post from me.

Janie xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Janie,

Only thing that might be helpful from me was I looked on the last cycle as the last, with a right to change my mind if I wanted to!  The changes I'd already made and the choices I made (to walk away from work for a while) helped me have a positive outlook during treatment but it also helped me focus on the good things that happened when I got my BFN.  It sounds trite, but it did help.  Yes, the pain of treatment having not worked is still there (prod me and I can be a mess) but I am beginning to realise that there can be a middle ground - keeping options open and trying naturally, with perhaps a dose of realism that it might not happen but also that life is here to be lived!!!

Sounds like it's all still a bit on top of you.  I also recommend writing things down.  I've kept a diary throughout my treatments.  It wasn't daily, but when I felt I had to let something out.  It was useful to go back on as it shows some common bits which help me believe I can come out of the other side with myself intact...I hope!

Anyway, please don't think I'm being bossy - these are just some of the things that have helped me.  We are all individuals and if we weren't life would be boring.  VERY boring!

Lots of love and have a nice weekend xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - Can you detach yourself from a cycle? Maybe a little but I doubt to the point where a BFN doesn´t hurt. I think the fact that you are going into this cycle with such an open mind though will help no end and I suspect that if it should be a BFN then that awful raw pain of a BFN will pass more quickly for you. Maybe you´ll take some steps backwards it´s a BFN and maybe all of a sudden you won´t be able to see that chlidfree life you can imagine now, but it won´t be permanent and you´ll get back to the acceptance stage again. For everyone who stops tx completely there is the final grieving process to go through. I don´t think that can be avoided and I think it comes back to bite you one day if you try and pretend its all OK. And even a year on when you think you´ve ´moved on´, things happen that rip your heart right open again and send you back to what feels like square one. From my own experience though, with time its gets easier to pick yourself up and battle on after each setback. Thats all just my thoughts though and maybe completely different for others. 

I have a few friends who swear by writing stuff down. The good stuff and the bad at opposite ends of a book. The bad stuff in order to vent and also like you said MrsP, to be able to go back and see what your triggers are and see what behavioural patterns you have. And the good stuff is important for obvious reasons. Loads of counsellors get people to write 3 positive things from the day before they go to bed and they wouldn´t all use that technique if it didn´t work I guess. While I was in hospital I had to write a list of my good qualities of which I clearly had none in my own head. The next day I was told to get lists from 2 friends and from my DH and the lists went on forever (although DHs was significantly shorter than my friends   ). Seeing things in black and white, whether it be your own or someone elses thoughts, makes it more meaningful I think and makes it easier to believe it to be true.

I´ve just noticed what you wrote Janie about comparing yourself to others and Carrie about ´why me´. I´m not naturally a ´woe is me´ type of person and I don´t cry very easily but I had a therapy session today which is kind of like ´physio for crazies´ and I felt this desperate need to tell her ´its just not fair´. I wasn´t specifically talking about IF but life in general and now I´ve written it down its a bit embarrassing lol. Luckily my therapy isn´t in English and I didn´t know how to say it so I was only pathetic in my own head but I did manage a ´why me?´and when she asked me to elaborate I couldn´t. I don´t know why I felt it   .

MrsP - You can come for the afterski then  

Janie - I live just outside Oslo, overlooking fjord and hills   

Movie time for me. Both boys gone (DH been away all week and pooch delivered to the kennels) so the house to myself .......... bliss! Catch up with you all in 10 days or so.
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies just had a quick look... FF in Jamaica sounds great! Kat I like your vision re vacation... Mrs P the pub sounds good to me!

So the step class certainly took my mind off IF boy it took all my concentration... Kat I realized I had the hardest time keeping up with the moves but I made it through the one hour class... not sure I'm a pottery girl, my sister in law did take a class so I know we have one around here...  Mrs P I have heard so many good things about yoga and perhaps I will try it since I am not sure I will go back to step since my legs still hurt 2 days later... feel a bit embarrassed cause I walk 3 miles 6 days a week! so why are my legs hurting so 

Well ladies, enjoy the rest of the weekend... having a blah day so going to go to bed.

 to everyone


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Aft'noon ladies
Hope you're having good weekends. I had a terrible day yesterday, all the positivity disappeared to be replaced by sadness and frustration about life being 'stuck' until I can move on from this. Feeling better again today.
MrsP - I think that the concept of going into this as the last round with the right to change your mind is really healthy and works for me. I'm all over the place, after my last BFN I started thinking about DEIVF and decided 2 more rounds of OE and then one of DE then moving on (if it would be possibly to 'move on' when you'rebankrupt!). A week or two ago I didn't even know if I wanted to do one more round. Now I know that I'm going to do one more round... and I reserve the right to do another!
JBT - well done with the Step class... keep it up. I really believe that exercise helps to keep us sane... I personally just find it so hard to get any momentum going in between treatments. It normally takes me about 6 weeks to begin to recover emotionally, then I gradually start to try and get fit again and just as I'm starting to feel a teeny bit better, treatment starts again. My clinic have always been clear that it's fine to do exercise but I somehow just can't help but feel the need to 'protect' my follicles / embryos. Ach well.. maybe it will be different this time.
Take care all.
Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies,

I never did say a proper hello to Mrs Pootle, so a big hello to you    If you don't mind me asking and if you don't mind saying, where in the south are you?  Re yoga, I tried it once, I kinda liked it but never went back for any more classes, not sure why really.  Maybe I'll think about giving it another go?!

Janie, in response to your post a couple of pages ago (sorry for delay!) - like you, I've always had worries about expressing doubts to my DH, as he'd grab it with both hands and run!  He'd definitely see it as a sign that I'd decided to give up.  Also like you, I always thought (maybe naively now with hindsight) that he'd get on board with the idea of a baby, but he never has and has only done it all because he loves me and knows that I want it so much.  I've always been the one to make the big decisions (well, 90% of the time anyway) and he's usually been reluctant initially,  whether it be move house, buy the new car, get the cats etc etc but in the end he's always come round to the idea and been grateful that I encouraged him.  I assumed this would be the same (although obviously a much bigger, life changing issue) but his continued reluctance is making me worry and seriously doubt that he'll ever come round to the idea, I worry that if I got a BFP it might tear us apart (especially as he's always been relieved after a BFN) - although I'm 99.9% certain that wont happen, bit still worries me.  I don't want to lose my marriage over this, my DH is very important to me. I too worry about our ages and bringing a child into the world now and poor DH having to deal with a teenager in his mid to late 60's!!  Have you thought any more about the counselling sessions?  DH had his session last week, he came away feeling positive and I think they covered a lot I'd useful stuff, but still no easy or straightforward answer re tx.  We have our session together on 13th Feb.  But like you I don't really want tx/a baby to be a forced issue, but if I'm honest I don't think it can be anything other than that for us if we do agree to more tx  

Nordicat, i know you're off on the slopes now (lucky!   ) but wanted to say you should definitely give pottery a go!  It is very therapeutic and you can totally immerse yourself in it, I love it for that.  Your local workshop might offer taster sessions, you could go along and try it out and see whether you like it?  And/or meet up with your potter friend of course  

Janie, I love doing the simple things in life too, and your comment about walking and listening to the birds singing certainly didn't sound trite to me.  DH and I love nothing more than going for a lovely sunny walk, seeing the countryside or the coast and listening to the birds singing - it's very grounding and definitely gives a 'feel good' feeling.  The one slight downside to that of course is that you quite often encounter 'happy families' out and about doing the same thing.  But generally we love it.  I really like the idea of writing a letter to yourself, with your current thoughts and feelings about a potential childfree life, I might take a leaf out of your book and try something like that too.  Have you done your letter yet?  It is scary not knowing how you'll cope and react after another cycle of tx, especially when you get so far down the road and start to feel 'ok' again, I know that's how I feel at the mo.  I think it's good that you're going for another cycle though, I think you'd regret it if you didn't, but as the others have said, I don't think it's possible detach yourself totally from tx, there is too much emotion tied into it, but I do think you can try and prepare yourself for all possible outcomes and be realistic and grounded.  Sorry to hear you had a terrible day yesterday, was it something in particular that triggered it?  Guess those days can just come out of the blue can't they, there isn't always a reason.  Glad to hear you're feeling a wee bit better today though  

JBT, well done on the step class!  Sounds great!  Sorry to hear you're having a bleugh day too. Hope you're feeling brighter now  

Well, I've had a really nice relaxing weekend.  Yesterday I met up with a lovely FF lady and we had a good old natter about things, mainly tx and what next, and we also discussed this thread and said how inspiring it is, and that it gave us hope    Met up with some other friends today and had a lovely pub lunch.  Trying to do nice things at the weekends so I'm not just sat around at home moping and feeling sad, I know it doesn't make the situation 'better' but it's helping to distract me for the time being.

Hello to Moonshadow (also currently on the slopes), Carrie, Wobs and Ivfmamma (plus anyone else I've missed).

Right, well, that's my mammoth post! I'm sure you're all bored of reading by now    So I'll sign off for now!

Hugs to all   xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Good evening all still feeling awful and I just can't pin point why I am in this funk... it doesn't help that tomorrow is Monday and I have to face another day at that pathetic job of mine... dh has prevented me from walking today and that has further upset my spirit! Anyway I will catch up tomorrow he won't be around so I am solo...

I guess it doesn't help either when stepson calls and I answer and he never really wants to ever talk to me even for a fleeting minute... then i hear the joy in dh's voice when he gets on... I wonder how he would feel or cope if he didn't have a child! would we be able to connect more through this whole process? I don't really see a happy ending to this story I must tell you all... as much as I am trying to be positive and hopeful...

Anyway have a nice night don't want to put any more gloom on anyone who at least had a pleasant weekend...


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello JBT,

So sorry to hear that things aren't any better for you today    Your situation sounds like a very sad and tricky one.  Has your DH said that he doesn't want to do another cycle of treatment (mine has said that!)?  I'm not sure I see a happy ending to my story either, so I understand how you feel - it's just heartbreaking.  Hope you're able to get out for your walk tomorrow and get some fresh air, I know it doesn't solve anything but it'll help blow the cobwebs away.

Take care and here to chat if you need to xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Nosilab still down in the dumps, no dh hasn't come out and said he doesn't want to do another cycle because I think he knows that would just crush me... I think he genuinely does want to have a child with me but the stress and he's content with it just being us... now that is my assumption he doesn't like to talk about the IF thing if I don't bring it up we don't talk about it... so that makes me feel even lonelier... 

I will be walking tonight rain or shine! I have to get out of the house and smell the night air, albeit pollution   

Have a great day ladies I don't want to put a damper on anyone else's day...


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Well - a bit of cheery news from me:
1) I have bootcamp tonight!
2) We accepted an offer on our north house this afternoon!
3) I've finally got an interview for a job!!

So I'm feeling good.  

JBT &  Nosilab - it's a really difficult stage after multiple BFN and I'm definitely feeling the difference between DH and me.  It's almost like we are at different stages of denial or acceptance!  But I know I've been both surprised at how emotional he is and also how sometimes he cannot bear to talk about it.  I know he loves me, but it makes me feel terrible that I can't give him the thing he so craves.  I don't have any answers but I try to look towards our future and fill it with nice things.  It was funny last night we were watching Borgen, and there was a bit where a couple decided to have a baby and it was all soooo cheesy, with him grabbing the pill packet out of her hands and smiling to say he wanted children after all.  DH said "Yeah, just wait, it won't be this shag that does it, you'll be 7 years down the line and still waiting like us"!  I was, I admit, thinking similar... So clearly he does have strong feelings on the matter.  I just hope and pray we last the distance.  I hope this for all of us  xx

Oh yes, and nosilab - I'm in Chelmsford!

Janie - I'm very up and down.  Yesterday was an angry and tearful day, today is much better (see above).  I just had my AF and I swear it was 20 times worse PMT feelings than ever before.  I've been annoying myself let alone DH.  Anyway just to say I'm thinking of you and here's a hug  xx

Right - off to grab a few things from the supermarket and Bootcamp then film club then bed.

Then commences 2 days of interview preparation!!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi JBT, my DH is the same, he is very content with just the 2 of us and he doesn't want that to change.  Like you, IF doesn't get discussed in our house unless I raise the subject first, so we rarely talk about it.  I said that exact phrase to my DH last night, that because I don't have him on board with all of this and I don't really have him to talk to or share this with, it makes me feel even more lonely   Hope you enjoyed your walk this evening and hope it was sunny and not rainy  

Hi MrsPootle, huge congrats on the job interview!!  That's brilliant news.  Bet you're relieved to get your house sold too.  Ah so you're South East then, I wondered if we might be close, but I'm South West. Isn't it 'funny' how the media portray ttc, they make it sound soooo easy!!  If only eh!  Good luck with bootcamp and lots of luck for the job interview/prep.

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies
Exact same thing here. IF is rarely discussed in our house and only if I bring it up. Am sure DH thinks that if we just don't mention it for a while then it might just go away. And it has the same result... I just ended up feeling even more alone in this. I know he has never shared the rollercoaster of emotions that I go through during treatment. He just wants this stage of our life to be over. And if takes having a baby for that to happen then so be it! I guess in some ways though I feel glad that he isn't that bothered. I think it would be worse if he was desperate for a baby that I couldn't give him. 

Nosilab - what you write about not wanting it to tear you apart strikes a chord with me. I have always been clear that our relationship is the most important thing and if having a baby meant not being with DH then I would walk away right now. But thankfully he isn't forcing that issue. I hope you guys can work it out together to decide what next. No, I haven't written a letter just yet but I am definitely thinking I may start a diary or something so I can remember that no matter how much I may crash after the next treatment, then things will get better. I'm still up and down as you will see from my posts. 

JBT - your situation is so hard, I really feel for you. I think it must be even more isolating when your partner already has children.   I can see how lonely that must feel... especially when you are struggling to bond with your stepson. I wish I could think of something more constructive to say. It's good that you are getting out for your walks and clearing your head every day. I also hate my job JBT so I know what you mean about Mondays. If our next tx doesn't work then I'm really hoping I can retrain and do something completely different. It's something else than IF has put on hold on account of all our money getting poured into that.

Mrs P - congratulations on the job interview - lovely to hear some upbeat non-IF related news.  Good for you! Fingers crossed for you... go get 'em!

Right, I'm a tired girl. 
Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie, yep, my DH is exactly the same - he just wants this stage of our life to be over with so that we can move on, although I have told him that whatever happens I can't ever be the same person I was before IF, as sad as that is, it's just impossible.  He understood that though.  I agree that in some ways it's almost easier this way though (ie DH not wanting children), because he's not desperate for a baby (understatement!) I don't feel any guilt for not being able to give him that.  Yes, like you if I had to make a choice between my DH or a baby my DH would most definitely come first, without a doubt.  We'll work it out one way or another, we'll be ok    Yes the diary idea is a good one too, I wish I'd done more of that, specifically related to tx over the years.  Now I only really tend to do journaling when I'm feeling low, angry or sad - getting the thoughts out of my head and on to paper really helps, shame I only do it for the bad times though.

Speak soon ladies   xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

I didn't expect to find myself on here this week, I'm supposed to be zooming down the slopes on the lookout for Kat... Yesterday we decided to take on an unpisted black run (it was actually shut - will we ever learn?!), one minute it's all swishing through the powder, the next I'm trying to figure out whether I'm facing up or down the mountain and whether my leg is still attached! Nothing broken but knee has ballooned overnight and I can barely walk on it   HB and friends are off enjoying the snow and I'm left feeling very sorry for myself. I'm hanging onto the last shreds of hope that the ibuprofen will work some kind of miracle (getting a bit melodramatic now). Kat is aiming to ski on the Italian side tomorrow which would be ideal for us to meet up, fingers crossed.

Of course being stuck in a hotel room with just a mini laptop and my book gives me far too much thinking time. It doesn't help that the couple we're with are childless by choice As much as I want to buy into their outlook, that they are free to do whatever they want, when they want, my heart is rebelling against that. I'm also fighting the paranoia that they will rub off on hb and he'll decide once and for all that we should stop. 

Anyway, enough of the pity post... I have kept a journal of sorts throughout tx. Reading it back can be hard - reliving the highs and the lows. It has been helpful though, it's a space to get out all those inner fears and hurt but I can also see that the real lows are temporary and that we come through them.

As for distractions - certainly being active helps me. Skiing has always been a real escape and a chance to really get away from it all but I find cycling and walking pretty effective too. I took up Pilates a couple of years ago and find that leaves me feeling peaceful. I always thought it would be too tame for me but it works somehow.

Anyways, am off for a hobble  - the hotel overlooks the slopes so I can torture myself a bit more watching everyone else enjoy the sun! I suspect I will return later.

MrsP - congrats on job interview, and good luck!!

Jen


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Jen - nightmare. Oh crikey, poor you. I really hope your knee gets better in time for you to ski again. No doubt you've already swallowed a bucket of 'profen so hope it kicks in. Say hi to Kat from the rest of us and hope you have a good meet up. On my phone hence brevity! Take care! No really... Take care!!! Janie xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Oh Jen - what a mare!!  Hope you get back on your feet soon.  I'm surrounded by "childfree by choice" people too - which you think would be a comfort, but not always!!  Thanks for the good wishes for the interview.  I'm stressing and prepping for it now.  So much to remember!!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Mrs. P good for you on the interview! Hope all goes well, what field are you in?

Hi Janie thanks, yes it is very difficult with ss situation especially when he comes home for summer, as much as i want dh to bond with him and for to try and have some sort of a relationship i feel angry and jealous if that makes sense... I too want to retool and go back to school but of course IF has taken up all the money to do so and now trying to decide to do another tx that will further delay school... 

Moonshadow I hope you feel better soon and are able to go skiing soon...

My walk was great thanks did more than 3 1/2miles and it was cool and a nice evening... will hit the track again tonight...

Take care all


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## nancec (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi ladies,

Oh my you are all so brave (not in a patronizing way!) You have written so nicely what I have been thinking - and the strangest thing, I'm on my 2WW for my 2nd FET, 3rd over all. But I don't hold out much hope - a touch of self-preservation perhaps? I didn't really expect the 2nd FET to happen so quickly so got a shock when I phoned for my appointment, I think maybe I need someone to step in and tell me to stop. Is it possible to become addicted to the process as with someone who is addicted to gambling? Wanting the high of a BFP?

I am also the big kid in the family - the one who plays with the kids toys at christmas (11 neices and nephews) and who is the fun aunty. I just have a feeling of dread that I'm going to turn into the scary aunt who ends up crying over kids after a few too many glasses of wine. Something I've barely had the luxury of over the past 14 months as I've always been starting a cycle, in the middle of a cycle or waiting for a new cycle to start. I feel as if there are two groups of people - the people who have kids and the people you can tell (or so you think) that don't want kids, and then there's me stuck in the middle with a neon sign above my head saying 'desperate for a baby'. I don't think it will be long until people are wary of newborns round me and will be staring at every move I make. And am I desperate for a baby? I wish I knew.

And then there is my DH - honestly, I don't know if we are going to last past this round even with a BFP. And those with kids will ofcourse tell me that this is nothing and wait til I have kids to see what sort of strain that puts on a relationship, but with his feelings of guilt (low motility) I think he will continue to push me further and further away. I think I can handle a life without kids, but I'm not sure we can as a couple......he was convinced he was a jinx and I haven't seen him since my transfer (my mum came through with me).

And on that cheery note! Thanks for putting down what you were thinking and I hope I haven't depressed you further   

xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh no Jen!! You poor thing! That really sucks  How are you feeling now? Hope those tablets are kicking in and that some of the swelling has gone down so that you can get back out there ASAP. I do think the journaling is a really good idea, I really wish I'd done more of it. Over the years I've only kept a general diary, which does include IF, but my IF specific one has only existed for the last few months really. Anyway, you take heaps of care and hope you're able to enjoy the rest of your hols. I know it's difficult but try not to worry about DH and his thoughts while spending time with the other couple. Hope you and Kat still get the chance to meet up  xx

Hello nanec, it's a funny old time isn't it - and not in a 'haha' way! I do think it can be easy to get addicted to the process in the hope of that elusive BFP  I come from a big family and have lots of nieces and nephews and I worry about turning into the 'mad old auntie' who doesn't have children - only cats. I'm so sorry to hear that things are strained between you and yr DH. IF can be such a difficult time and bring up a whole range of emotions for both. Have either of you had counselling through your clinic? It must be so difficult for your DH....difficult for you both. I wish I had some answers for you  Take care and come and chat if/when you want to xx

Hi to everyone, gotta get off to bed now, I'm exhausted and have stayed up _way_ past my bedtime - I lead such a rock 'n' roll life (not!) heehee!

xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Gah! Phoned at 9.30am this morning to be told my interview is unexpectedly cancelled and will be rescheduled next week!  Charming!  I'm in IT so I suspect the company has had a bit of an overnight systems panic and are fixing that rather than fixing me with a job LOL....

So, all dressed up and nowhere to go - but there is plenty to do as I've neglected almost everything else in favour of prep for this interview... right, time for lunch now though...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Just dropping in with hugs for you all. 

Jen and I still haven't met as we are cursed by wind and a huge pesky mountain between us. Still 2 more days to try though  My prolapse was giving me huge pain but now my whole leg has gone numb which is much better ;-) Having a superb time though. Dangled off cliffs in order to get to the best snow and tumbled down more mountains than a girl my age should lol.

MrsP - at least you'll be well prepared for next week. I used to live near Chelmsford.

Ooh got to go. Love to you all, Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Nanec so sorry to hear about how you are feeling... as Nosilab says IF is a strain in itself...   remember we are here for you if you need to talk... IF is hard on both parties and if it is a male issue then I can understand both parties frustration as well... but I agree try to find some time to do some counselling... and yes it can get addictive I think just so that you can get that high when you see that positive... I hope you have a better day today...

Mrs P lawks that must have been a bummer to get that call... just this morning I was saying I just want a call to say I have an interview to at least one of the million resumes I have sent out! Ok you are in IT so that is an ever thriving industry, anyway good luck and I hope the interview is early in the week and it all goes well...

Have a great day ladies... AFM still hanging tight


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Kat... hope you and Jen meet up soon... enjoy the slopes!


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks Kat & JBT - and I also hope Kat & Jen get to meet up soon.
Had a nice bonus day off today - tried to tidy the house but it looks worse before it gets better!  Back to yet more apps.
JBT - I know what you mean about sending out loads of apps - it's horrible as you don't even get a rejection letter these days - you just have to 'assume' when you hear 'nothing'.  It's truly pants!  Good luck, keep trying, something will come up x


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh no MrsP!!  That's really rubbish!  Hope you hear soon about the rescheduled date.

Kat, shame you and Jen haven't managed to meet up yet but sounds like you're having a fab time!  Enjoy the rest of your time there  

Big hello to everyone xx


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

hi ladies

just been reading around on here and found this page Nosilab u caught my eye as on your signature u said that dh doesn't won't to do anymore treatment, plus i think i have seen u on other threads. 
i am in the same situ as u my dh doesn't want to do another cycle cos he says he doesn't think it will work.  how did u cope when he said this to u? i have reacted very badly and am constantly falling out with dh now.  I feel like he is taking away my last chance of having a baby i'm so angry with him and can't stop being angry but he says he's not even gonna consider it again whilst i'm being like this. so he's basically saying be a bit nicer and i'll think about it.  I feel like he's stringing me along.  
interested to know how u coped or what your opinion is
ta ra


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Set - (((hugs))) sadly tx is something you can't compromise on. I think you need to talk some more about this with DH but maybe you need to give it some time first. Maybe some counselling might help you vent your anger a little. Sorry its all so painful for you though xxx

JBT - how was your weekend?

Nancec - tx takes its toll on all of our relationships i think. None of us come put completely unscathed and i think the guilt for the 'responsible' person us awful and adds to the strain. There are many threads in here about guilt, maybe you can find some for your DH to read so he knows its normal and that you can both get through this as a team. 

Sorry got to go again. Being unable to move due to so much pain is apparently not a good enough reason not to do my own packing!! Jen and i met but it was just not for long enough :-( Been a bit melancholy today as my pain had got too bad to board and we all know too much time alone can be dangerous. Better pack, catch up properly in the week.

Love to you all, katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi all,

I thought that it was about time I came on and introduced myself, as I have been lurking for a while now.  

Kat, Wobs and JBT know me from a while back on FF, but to everyone else  .  

I actually started a similar thread to this at around the same time as Janie started this one, because I was going through all of the same feelings regarding the prospect of another cycle (my 10th  ).  After a lot of soul searching, DH and I have decided to try again, but this time I feel as if my fight to succeed at all costs, that I had when I started this process, is really ebbing away, so it may well be our last tx.  So even though I have now made my decision to carry on, I hope it's OK if I hang out here with you ladies, because having read what you all have to say, I have had many of the same thoughts as you all, and feel like I identify with where you are in your journeys.

Kat - I'm sorry to hear that you're in pain hun, but hope that you managed to get some good boarding time in during your trip.  

waikiki xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello and welcome Waikiki, 10 cycles!  Wow!  I truly admire you, wishing you lots and lots of luck for this cycle of treatment   

Aw Kat, I'm so pleased that you and Jen got the chance to meet up, albeit briefly.  Hope your pain eases v soon.

Hello Set55, yes I remember us chatting over on the 'inbetween treatment/BFN' thread.  To be honest I'm not sure I did cope when DH told me that he didn't want any more treatment    We both sobbed and cried our eyes out.  Me because I was sad about tx potentially coming to an end, and him because he was petrified of losing me.  The only way I sort of coped with it all was to go and see my counsellor, and luckily DH volunteered to go and see her too, for an appointment on his own, which I was happy with.  So we've had an individual session each and next week we have an appointment together.  I don't think the session will magic up an instant solution, but I'm hoping it'll get us talking about it and our feelings in a 'safe environment'.  Sorry to hear you and your DH are having a difficult time at the mo and facing the same horrible situation, it is definitely a very stressful time, I've found that too.  Having this big weight on my shoulders every day, but having to stick on the brave face and get on with my every day life, including work; it's hard, really hard.  I don't really feel angry with my DH as he's always been honest about his feelings so I've always known that he didn't really want children, I guess I just feel sad and disappointed for me, that tx might have come to an end sooner than I'd thought.  The only thing I can suggest (as Kat has also suggested) is to both consider some counselling, and to both give yourselves time to process the info and make a promise to each other to sit down and talk about it again in a few weeks.  As much as I want children (I even had a cry about it all this eve with my sister) I don't want to risk losing my marriage, my DH is too important to me.  We're also trying to make sure we do nice things together at weekends, making time for each other xx

Hugs to all   xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi all

I've missed you ladies! Hello to recent additions to the group.... 

Waikiki - I'm still having tx but feel like I still belong here. I no longer feel the optimism and hope that I used to, and question on a regular basis whether I'm doing the right thing in continuing. It's very difficult to voice those thoughts though, hb would take it as a very welcome sign we should stop and friends just keep telling me it'll be worth it in the end. They don't seem to understand that there are no guarantees or that it takes such a huge toll.

Set - that must be hard. I know my hb would probably be more than happy to stop tx but for now he's going along with it. I suspect I'll reach a point I don't want to continue but I know I'd struggle if he imposed that on me before I was ready. As Nosilab says, it's important to keep talking and trying to find things to do together that keep that cement there. I think it's okay to feel angry but you need to work through that and having an outlet for that outside the marriage, such as a counsellor, could really help.

AFM - as Kat said we managed to meet up which was really lovely  , but the weather did cut it short  . One of the perils of a high altitude resort I guess, high winds! I've just about thawed out from the -25C temperatures but am not loving being back at work. Despite the knee injury I did get some more skiing in but think I might need to get it checked out, it's not feeling too good and feels like it's going to give way any minute! Kat - I hope the last couple of days have eased your aches and pains a bit.

It's strange being back; IF kind of got put on hold in the run up to the holiday. There was so much else going and me and hb really needed the break. Now I'm back I have an endo scratch booked for next week and a FET scheduled for mid-March. A couple of people have asked where we are with tx etc and I'm finding I just don't want to talk about it. I'm tired of having the same conversations and having to explain it all. I don't want to think about the DR, the scans, the horrible 2ww (if we even reach that, the consultant has told us to be prepared for having nothing to transfer). I really feel in limbo; I'm not quite ready to stop, I don't feel I have the luxury of being able to wait and figure it all out (if that's even possible!) but the thought of going through it again fills me with dread. Then I beat myself up because I know I'm lucky to be able to still have these options. 

I wish I was still whizzing down a mountain or drinking mulled wine with Kat...

Jen


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## fluffy73 (Sep 2, 2012)

Hi all

Newbie here.  Looking for some support.  
I have just had my second cycle of IVF, failed on Friday. Had a horrible time while trying to do the ER. After surgery got told they only got one egg and it was no use.  So thats it for me.  I have spent the weekend feeling numb, had to take the day off work today as i just cant face anyone or be bothered doing anything, all i seem to do is sleep. What is worse is that colleagues are preggers, huge and i have to work with them, plus my manager and a few other colleagues became grandparents and decided to bring their 4 week old grandchildren into work to show off.  I work with old patients with health problems and there is no need to bring babies into my work.
can anyone offer advice/support who has been on the same road as me.  How do you move on?

sorry for being depressing but i dont want to talk to someone who has never experience these problems.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Jen! Lovely to have you back, we missed you  So glad that your hols gave you a little bit of escapism, I know it never goes away completely but holidays and a change of scenery certainly does help. Hope you manage to get your knee looked at asap and that all's ok x

Fluffy, I'm so so sorry to hear about your failed IVF cycle, I feel absolutely devastated on your behalf - to go through all of that, right up to the point of EC and for that to happen - you must be heartbroken. Sending you big big hugs  You've suffered a massive trauma and it's completely normal to be feeling numb, it's a big thing to recover from (if we ever do!). I know I keep going on about it (here and other posts) but I found the book 'Unsung Lullabies' a huge help, it was really reassuring and comforting. So many times I'd be reading it and in my head be shouting "yes! yes! That's it, that's exactly how I feel!"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unsung-Lullabies-Understanding-Coping-Infertility/dp/0312313896/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360588420&sr=1-1

I think there are probably some other helpful books dealing with the 'moving on' process, although I haven't quite got around to Googling those yet - I keep meaning to.

Most of all, give yourself plenty of time to process all of this, and give yourself time to grieve. It's so hard being around pregnant colleagues at this time and others bringing babies in, so where ever possible (if possible?!) make a sharp exit and take yourself out of the situation - take yourself off to the loos or something to give yourself a bit of breathing space. Does your clinic offer counselling? If they do maybe you could also consider that, I know I find it really helpful. I'm sure some of the other ladies will give you much better advice, as I'm still partly in limbo/partly moving on myself, so new to all of this too. But I know we (on this thread) have talked about finding things outside of IF to do that help distract us, whether it be exercise, walking, holidays, crafts etc etc, just something to help give your mind something else to focus on. I know it's very hard when you're feeling very low, it's hard to motivate yourself (I know the feeling) but maybe you could just give it some thought for now, and have a think about the little things you enjoyed doing before IF came along. And of course, come on here and talk to us whenever you need to 

Please don't apologise, that's what we're here for, to listen and support. Look after yourself  xx


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## fluffy73 (Sep 2, 2012)

hi Nosila B.  Thanks for answering my post.  Seems like we are the same, im the same age as you, so it helps knowing there are people at this age group on here for chit chat.  Re work, I was off today couldnt face seeing people, had a nice we day to myself, went a long walk which helped.  The past few times when people have brought their children into work i have managed to leave the building.
Seems like there are a few folk on this journey.  I am planning to go for massages, shopping, hair cuts etc, plan to spoil myself.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Fluffy

I think that was the best plan, to stay away from work to give yourself a bit more time, and the lovely long walk will have helped - always good for the mind    Massages, shopping and haircuts all sound good - you definitely need to spoil and treat yourself after everything you've been through.  I agree, it's so good to have this thread to chat xx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Big hugs fluffy   .  I had a cycle where they only retrieved one egg and it didn't fertilise - I know how hard it is and my heart goes out to you.  

I'm also struggling with babies at work at the moment too.  One of my colleagues who is on maternity leave and regularly brings her baby in to the office.  Another colleague is pregnant and told me by shoving her 12 week scan under my nose, I don't know about you but seeing other people's scan pictures is the worst for me, it makes me feel physically ill.  She did the same with her 20 week scan, so I have now found out when her 28 week scan is and arranged to work from home for the day!!!


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Fluffy, that's really tough. IVF can really raise your hopes and when it doesn't work, at whatever stage, it is heart-breaking.

It sounds like you're doing all the things any one of us would recommend. Be gentle with yourself and give yourself the space to deal with this. My GP offered to sign me off work for a couple of weeks after my last failed cycle (she's an IVF mum so understands the toll it takes). Although I didn't, it was good to know the option was there and that it was okay to need that time. I think finding a balance is the key - you do need to grieve and allow those feelings to come out, but it's also healthy to give yourself time out from that, whatever it is that works for you (such as going for  walk).

I bought the book Nosilab recommended and found it really helpful, I also bought "The Mindful Way through Depression" by Jon Kabat-Zinn - it had been recommended to me and although I resisted for some time as I did not really consider myself ot be depressed I've found it enormously helpful as it helps guide you through dealing with difficult emotions rather than running away from them. It sounds a bit new agey on the face of it but it's actually really helpful. I recently leant it to a friend who has been struggling following the loss of her mum 2 years ago and she has also found it helpful. Just a thought - feel free to take or leave whatever is helpful.

Coming here and sharing your thoughts and feelings also really helps  

Jen

ps - Nosilab - I've damaged my lateral collateral ligament and am going for a scan to make sure nothing is torn   It'll be at least a month before I can do anything more than walk and maybe swim (far too cold for that!) so it's a bit frustrating. I just have to be patient and find some other useful distractions! 

Righto - off to the hospital to get my dodgy thyroid checked, my life is so rock and roll...


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## Emmy27 (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi ladies,

I'm so glad I found this thread!  I can totally relate to what Janie73 said in the 1st post about not being sure etc.  I've never been certain that I want children but you almost feel like as a 39 year old woman you should do!  I'm almost 10 years older than my hb & he wants them more than I do even tho hes said its not the b all & end all.  We've suffered one m/c which was awful & nothing since so I figured we ought to try IVF, got our 1st appt tomorrow at Oxford.  Am dreading it.  As with all of you obviously I'd prefer the natural method, the thought of all those drugs pumping round my body fill me with horror but I'd rather regret things I've done that haven't done.

I'm so worried about how its going to effect our relationship, we get on so well & are so close.  He thinks a baby will complete us but I feel complete already.  I've never been very maternal at all having kids has never been on my agenda, when I see friends with theirs I think arr how lovely but how stressful!!  And expensive!!  I'm the breadwinner & hb doesn't always have work so thats a worry too.  I keep trying to envisage a life with a child & I'm sure it'd be lovely until they hit the teenage years & being quite selfish & intolerant I'm not sure I would cope well!  What if we don't get on?!  And then on the flip side, a life with no kids, no one to visit you, look after some of your needs when you get old, someone else to love you, grandchildren etc etc.  I guess with everything theres pro's & con's & I'm sure the pro's outweigh the con's right?!

We didn't have a great 1st consultation at Oxford, the consultant made me feel like my age was the problem (guess so!) & that theres only a 20% success rate so it prob won't happen for us, that was the vibe I got from him anyway.  I know hes got to keep it real but he also needs to give us hope too surely?!  Tomorrow is our 2nd appt so I will let my feelings known a bit more.  I was really upset last time so does that mean I want children or I dont want to be a big old failure & not give my hb the child he wants?  How guilty will I feel if it doesn't happen will he resent me deep down & will it effect our relationship?  Its all very scary, especially when I don't even know its what I really really want!  Feel quite useless already  

Emma


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Fluffy - hello and welcome, and don´t apologise for being ´depressing´as the is the one of the few places where you really can just feel how you feel and be you. I think most people on this read are around the 40 mark so you are not alone there either   . Your massage idea sounds great. A few pages back we were talking about distractions like pottery, step aerobics and I think basically anything that requires concentration to distract you from your grief for brief periods. As for you question ´how do you move on?´, well I´m not really sure. I am very much in the process and I´m not sure if its me making it happen or whether its just time itself allowing me to heal my broken heart. I think that stopping tx maybe leaves a huge hole, not just the emotional hole realising you´ll not be a mum, but also time wise. All that time I used to spend preparing for and then going through a cycle, then the grief afterwards has slowly been filled with other things, other things I´d rather being doing. Moving on is a slow process and I´m not sure you can decide over night to just do it. Its more you wake up one day a notice it doesn´t hurt so much. Does any of that make sense? Stopping tx also means I have more time on my hands for writing long rambling pointless replies on here   

waikiki -    I had a real mental block with the thought of entering double figures for some reason but I´m glad you´ve made a decision and I know its the right one   

MrsP - do you have a date for your interview?

Janie - I hope you had a nice weekend?

JBT - can you get some advice on your job applications? Maybe get someone to read through some to see if they can sex it up a bit? Its all about getting through that first sift so it needs wow factor very early on. Its terrible to admit but if there are 100s of applicants for a job then in my first round I get rid of the ones that sound dull. I look for buzz words and people with some zest for life. Think sexy  

Nosilab - I hope you and DH have a good talk with your counsellor this week. I like the idea of you talking individually and then together so your counsellor can steer conversations in the right direction.

Jen - that sucks    but I hope it was worth it for a week on that mountain air. I really hope its not torn though and I´m pleased you used a knee brace since it was your knee ligament after all. I found my beer buddies last week already on the balcony drinking beer ......... no surprise there then   But oh what I would do for another mulled wine with you. Japan next year for a saki meet?

Well I´m back home with a big thud    I missed the last day and a half of boarding because I just couldn´t take the pain anymore but I managed some lovely walks by myself. We were staying in a James Bond stylie hotel at over 3000 m so going for a walk in the blue sky was pure bliss. Now I´m home though I can´t ignore my prolapse any longer and I am allowed to take short walks and then lie down. Sitting is allowed for the shortest time possible   . As my Dr pointed out though, its nice to write something else on my sick note for a change!! Anyway, I´m very very miserable but I´m not generally that sort of person so no doubt after I´ve been to physio-for-loonies and had a bit of a sob about how unfair it all is ( I would childishly stamp my feet shouting ´its not fair´except with a completely numb foot, stamping it makes me feel oddly sick   ) I´ll be tip top again tomorrow.

I had better go and lie down again   
Lots of love to you all, 
Katxxx


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Ladies, 
Wondering if i can join you all? We have just had our 5th cycle fail... with only a minor sniff at 1 BFP! We have one FET remining funded but we are wondering if that should then be the end? is 6 goes enough 

We are told it's a numbers game by our clinic and they can't see why it wouldn't work.... this is not helpful to anyone! 

we are considering a clinic change and even the possibility of going to serum however this scares me with all the flights and how things simply change at the last minute! 

i'll catch up the thread properly later, i've read the fisrt few posts and can confirm i feel the exact same! 

Jess xx


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## Emmy27 (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi Jess,

Wow 5 go's that a lot I'm just about to start my 1st so am really nervous!  How has all those drugs effected you & is it painful?

Do you feel like you could cope with any more tries?  It must be so hard when it doesn't work out    Which clinic are you at?

Emma x


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh Jess I'm so sorry for your bfn (((hugs))). I'm not sure you can decide how many goes is enough just now. The raw pain doesn't aid decision making. And also maybe you need to do you fet before you'll know if you should stop. Is 6 cycles enough? You'll know that yourself when #7 is your next step. For me 9 was enough, Waikiki had decided 9 isn't enough, and there are many others who stop after just a couple of tries. You'll know when it's time to move on I promise. My next step was funding a clinic abroad and I knew in my heart I just didn't have the strength for that but I guess if I'd dug a bit deeper I'd have found it somewhere. No decision is the wrong decision though, go with your heart but wait until you have gone through the grief if this last cycle before trying to make plans. TLC is what you need now.

Emmy - the emotional pain is harder than the physical pain. You are made of tougher stuff than you think. No need to be nervous though as there are lots of threads on here to help you along. When you have dates then start posting on a cycle buddy thread and then there will always be somebody at the same stage as you. Good luck. 

I got my therapy session dates wrong so just me and my puppy on the sofa thus afternoon. He seriously stinks after 10 days in the kennels though!!!


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## Emmy27 (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks NordicKat I will do that!  I don't find the website that easy to navigate round to be honest but I'm sure I'll find out how to start a cycle buddy!

So are you done trying now then?  How old are you & your dh?  Do you both desperately want a child or is it more you than him?  Hope you dont mind me asking! x


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Kat and Jen - please can I join you for that sake meet in Japan, it sounds divine!  I'm sorry that you're both in pain with your respective injuries and hope that you can get some relief soon. As for reaching double figures Kat, I think it's a combination of my own bloody mindedness, denial and insanity. I really must be a glutton for punishment. 

Jess -   I'm so sorry hun. As Kat has said, only you can decide when enough's enough for you, there aren't many people crazy enough to keep going as long as I have, but only the other day we heard from another veteran FF who succeeded on her 17th cycle, so it can happen. We're here for you if you need a sounding board for your thoughts on carrying on or calling it a day.

Emma - you'll find mountains of support on FF and we're happy to answer any questions that you have, so just fire away! I agree with Kat that for your first cycle it's good to have some cycle buddies, so you could check out that section of the FF site for starters: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=68.0.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hello again

I'm supposed to be working but have so little motivation at the minute so thought I'd pop in here, again... 

Jess - I'm with Kat, I think you will know when enough is enough. I know I haven't quite reached that point yet but I suspect I'm not too far from it. Listen to your own heart; I'm tired of other people telling me what they think we should do, or what they would do (not here on FF, it generally seems to come from those who have children!) and have started to really listen to what feels right for us. I know the end of the road isn't far away for us and it feels right to be allowing myself to think along those lines (whereas a couple of my friends seem to think that's defeatist).

Emmy - Again, follow your own instincts. As much as you'd like to give your hb the children he wants you need to want them for yourself as well. I was never particularly maternal when I was younger and don't gush over other people's children even now, but I have felt that primal need to have my own. I can understand you worrying about feeling guilty if you don't, and worrying that your hb will resent you, but is there a similar risk if you do? You may end up resenting the fact you had children when it was never really something you wanted. I know it's not that clear-cut and you're not sure how you feel but maybe you need to take a step back and examine how you feel. Most clinics offer counselling and that can be a good place to talk through some of these difficult thoughts. As for the drugs etc - like Kat says you find ways to cope! Each person is affected differently but coming onto FF and sharing that experience is really helpful.

Kat - I'm really sorry to hear you're in so much pain. It's not fair that something that brings you so much joy can also trigger so much physical pain. I know I skied on when I probably shouldn't have but it was definitely worth it. I always find the mountains give me a deep sense of peace and help put things in some kind of perspective. On the flip side, like you, I'm back to reality with a hefty bump! Hang in there, I hope the puppy cuddles are helping despite the doggy stink! AFM - I'm on yet another waiting list to see a therapist as we can't really afford for me to continue privately at the minute now hb is trying to start up a business. In the meantime I'm seeing the counsellor at my GP surgery on Friday to try and talk through some of this stuff. I sometimes feel myself rebelling against being helped in that way but I also recognise that there are times I need it. In the meantime I'll start on the Japan fund!

Completely off topic but I'll have a moan anyway - apparently my thyroid is toxic (why doesn't that surprise me?!) They won't do anything about it at the minute as it involves radiation and I wouldn't be allow to conceive for at least 9 months (ha - after 6+ years of trying I doubt that's going to be an issue) nor will they do a bone density scan until we are no longer having tx. I'll have to have regular blood tests and will go back to the consultant in a year to decide next moves; I guess by then I'll know either way where we are.

Feeling a bit deflated today but I'm determined to pick myself up. I'm wondering whether I'd get away with doing with Pilates tonight? I hate feeling like I can't be active in some way! I think I need a new hobby, maybe it's time to try out that potter's wheel!

Jen


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## Emmy27 (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks for all your comments I really appreciate it its a big help.  I'm sorry to hear that some of you have been struggling for so long my heart goes out to you.  I really hope you get what you want eventually.
I think I'm just really scared by the whole thing & I've been blocking it out.  Half of me does want a child & the other half is happy the way things are.  Sometimes I think I stop myself from wanting a child too much so I'm not upset if I don't have one, other times I'm just not sure if its for me, its so confusing!  I think if it were to happen I'd love the child to bits & just get on with it, other times I think I'd resent it for taking over our lives/stressing us out/maiking us argue about money etc etc!  That said I'm a great believer in fate & what will be will be so try not to get too het up about it all! xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies:

I too am not feeling the motivation to work even though I have work to do...

Kat I had my resume and cover letter professionally done about a year ago, as I thought that was the problem. Well to my surprise still nothing... I have had one or two ins with people looking and each one the same thing over qualified! Who cares give me the option to decline the position.. I really just want to leave my present job and get an in into another company and then I will work my way up!

Emmy   the pain of the cycle is not that bad, each person's tolerance level is different. I hate needles but trust me I got used to it after the first stick so that part wasn't too bad... emotionally I was up and down. Like you my dh and I are very close but we have so far made it thru nearly 6 years of trying a couple of failed ivfs and one fet that the frosties never warmed up! Also me trying to cope with a step son that does not like me and a father in law that now lives with us... my mother just recovering from breast cancer and now my father in law has been diagnosed with  prostate cancer... and no money to continue trying since we don't have funding here... so we have a full plate... but we have managed to get through it all... so what I am really trying to get at is you and dh will be ok a bit stressful but work through it all and you'll be fine... did I also mention hospitalization with OHSS on cycle 2   I kinda sound pathetic don't I Kat? 

Moonshadow sorry to hear about your thyroid  

Jess   to you my dear 

Later ladies as I go back to my pathetically boring job! can't wait for 4:30 p.m.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - you sound the complete opposite to pathetic. When you write it all down like that you seem like some sort of superhero ;-) Read back through your post and see how strong you must be to have got through all that xxx Brave brave lady xxx

Moonshadow - I think sometimes we have to put the stubbornness to one side and accept help. I'm glad you have some counselling this week. Whenever I am struggling to accept that I need help like that I tell myself that its just a place to go and shout and scream and whatever you need safe in the knowledge that the counsellor had to just sit and listen and not pass judgement ;-) And what does a toxic thyroid mean? Are you better getting that sorted before trying tx again? 

Waikiki - I'm not sure why #10 had so much meaning for me. Funny how we get things stuck in our head. You clearly need to get this cycle done for your own piece of mind and hey, like you said, look at VW and her double miracle xxx

I've had an odd day. I woke with more pain than I can describe. I crawled to my shrink session and just cried for an hour. I'm not big on tears so she was as shocked as me I think. I had a real meltdown and all I could say was 'its not fair' and 'why my' which is not all that productive lol. I was worried about wasting her time when there are others who could use it more constructively. She was lovely though (a shock in itself!) and said it was ok to cry. I then had physio-for-loonies which was fab too. I was struggling to get appts for my back before April but the she took control and I have my first appt 1st march. Then I had a chiropractor appt out if desperation and he was superb. He actually made me laugh about it all  I learned stuff too. I was really chuffed with a huge reflex from my numb leg until he pointed out that there is such a thing as too much reflex!! Did you guys know that?!? Sadly I have no reflex at all in my ankle :-( The good news is that he thinks he can help a little so I've gone from hysterical end of my tether, to slightly optimistic that things will improve, all in the space of 7 hours. Very drained now though. 

I hope the Japan pose like onsen too, nothing better than a Japanese bath after a hard day on the slopes skiing through bamboo forests.

Love to you all, katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat thanks... sorry to hear about your pain hope you have meds you can take? The counsellor is right sometimes we need to just cry, get the toxins out   I guess i should practice what i preach... went out with dh last night spur of the moment, ran into a couple who own a chain of gyms and we started talking to them about it and ended up spending the evening with them, was pleasant until they started talking about the their kids... he is Jamaican and she is Australian so lived in Australia for a few years and now back home and opening a a number of 24hour gyms, I am actually interested in joining so we'll see what happens...

Just a quick check in, hi to everyone hope you are all having a good day.. is it a holiday there? It's Ash Wednesday here so no work for me today... have a good one ladies...

Kat I really do admire your strength, even though you may not believe you have it but reading your posts sometimes put things into perspective  and I truly admire you...


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies

Been a while since I've posted but been reading and thinking about you all...just not had a decent chance to sit down and write anything. Can I just apologise in advance if any of my comments are lame... it's late and I'm tired and I might not say the right thing but I'm thinking fondly of you all. 

First of all, hello to all the new ladies. And of course so sorry that you find yourselves here    Nance... any news just yet?  

Fluffy... how are you doing honey?   . I really feel for you. Where you are right now is just so tough. I don't think there are any easy answers. You just have to find a way to try and ride out the storm.  Have you been back to work yet? Any chance you can get yourself signed off for a week or so, just to give you a bit of breathing space. I know the hell of babies being brought into work. It seems that someone always announces their pregnancy the day that I'm first back in work after failed IVF. I've got one or two allies who help me out by giving me a bit of a heads up so I can make my exit / work at home on the days that babies are being brought in. I guess we just have to find whatever coping strategies we can. But give yourself time and be kind to yourself. It won't feel this raw forever.  

Waikiki - hey there. I'm in a similar situation to you in that I'm still hanging out on this thread but I've pretty well made the decision to go ahead with my next cycle. Like you though, I feel like I'm going into it thinking it's my last cycle (with the right to change my mind!). It sounds like you've had one hell of a journey which makes me feel a bit humbled to be honest. I really hope it's lucky #10 for you.

Emmy - good luck with the journey honey. As the other ladies have probably said, the treatment really is the easy bit, it's the emotional rollercoaster which is well... the challenge. You never know though... you  might be one of the lucky one's who get to hop-on and hop-off. Fingers crossed for you.

Nosilab - I've been thinking about you. Wasn't it your joint counselling session today? How did it go? I really hope it's helped you both. I'd be interested to know how the counsellor approached the session? Suspect you're still digesting it all just now. I looked for a book on infertility after my last treatment failed so I'm going to buy the one you have suggested... recommended by you and Jen is definitely good enough for me!  

Jen - great to have you back but sounds like you're having a rubbish run of events. It's hard when you have to start preparing yourself for the whole rollercoaster again. Especially when you have had a break from it all. I could have written that paragraph. In fact, I probably will be writing that very same paragraph when I get back from skiing in a couple of weeks. I already feel like I don't want to talk about treatment to anyone, don't want to think about the whole damn process. Fills me with dread too. And yet, yes, I guess we are lucky to at least have the option for now. I can't believe you are now having to deal with other health issues on top of it all. I noticed your post about that book on minfullness too. I have done a little reading on Mindfullness and I really think it could be helpful... I guess I just haven't applied myself enough. Might add this to my reading material too...

Kat - sorry to hear you've been in so much pain. Sounds like you've had a hell of a day today. Hopefully offloading all that emotion will at least help you to sleep tonight. Is your pain affecting your sleep. I always find that can be a vicious circle. 

JBT - I hope you've enjoyed your day off and managed to do something nice

Hello to anyone else I've missed.

I've had a contemplative few days. One of my best mates came to stay. She's from the 'doesn't want children' camp which I find totally refreshing. I know some people really find this hard to deal with but I don't. I love that she just doesn't 'get' why I'm doing this. And she challenges me on things and helps me see things in different ways.  Her and DH did gang up on me though a few times about babies etc but it was all done with kindness and in jest and actually had me laughing about the whole hellish saga. I was trying to explain to her about the jist of this thread. I had to explain to her about having 'popped over to Greece' last week for a consult (sounds like madness when you say it cold to someone) but at the same time I'm still struggling to answer the question as to whether this is what I really want. I'm too tired right now to write anything sensible just now but we chatted about some interesting stuff which I wanted to discuss with you guys. I'll try and post again tomorrow. Of course a weekend of fun with my child-free friend has left me questioning all over again what I'm doing...AF should arrive tomorrowish then I'm on a month countdown to getting started again. Sigh.

I've also been thinking about my single friends. I have a few beautiful, funny, intelligent girlfriends who are around the 40 mark and still single (because MEN ARE STUPID!!). They each say that they would have liked to have had children but seem to have accepted that it probably won't happen now. Whilst they seem a bit sad about it, they aren't fighting all the same feelings of bitterness and anger and frustration that I struggle with. Which makes me think that it really is the IVF process which makes this so much harder? Or maybe it's just about hierarchy of needs? They are more concerned with finding a decent fella to share their life with and would be happy for that. I really try not to offload all my IVF trauma onto them because they probably, to some degree, wish they were in my shoes. Oh, it's not that simple, I'm just too tired to express myself right now so I'm going to shut up!

Take care ladies, speak soon. 
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - For me, Mindfulness is fantastic. I'm really rubbish at following it alone, especially in the dark times, but its what my physio-for-loonies is all about. I guess it translates to psychomotor physiotherapy in English  and its all about being in the here&now. Not the reckless living for the moment, but just living in the moment. Its great for anxiety, depression and OCD. I suspect some of the text on it is a bit ott spiritually if you are not that sort of person (I'm not!) but if you find the right book or therapist it's great stuff. I personally would be in a very different and desperate place if it wasn't for my physio-for-loons and mindfulness work.

I've thought a lot about different people having different priorities depending on where we all are in life and about your 'do i really want this' question but a herd of students have just arrived so it'll have to wait. They will be mighty disappointed when they realise that my pain muddled brain is pure much at the moment 

Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all

I'm a big fan of Mindfulness. I was very sceptical at first, I tend to be more of a fix-it kind of girl and it seemed to go against the grain of that, but I love its simplicity and how it can be applied to all aspects of life. I do struggle with the idea that there is no goal other than to just 'be', I tend to *want* it to give me a sense of peace and to be fair it usually does, whether or not that is the intention!

Kat - Sometimes tears are the most appropriate response. Sometimes there aren't words, or coherent thoughts, but just a need to let go of some frustration and pain. I always found it hard to cry in therapy, if I did it was generally alone afterwards. Being able to share that with someone else is a whole lot less lonely and also speaks volumes about where you are in a way that can be hard to express verbally. I'm glad she was lovely . I'm also glad the chiropractor was good, I've seen one fairly regularly to sort out back/hip problems and am seeing him on Monday for my knee. I've always felt an improvement after a session and would definitely give it the big thumbs up.

Janie - it's good to see you back, and your thoughts are anything but lame! I really hope skiing gives you the break from it all that it gave me. Focus on that rather than what might come after (easier said than done, I know). Although I feel a bit deflated and unwilling to engage in the whole IF process again I don't feel overwhelmed by it, at least not yet! I do think there is some truth in the idea that IVF can intensify feelings even further. When we were trying naturally there were certainly lows but never to the same degree and I can't remember ever needing to avoid people with children. To me it's the feeling of running out of options. When we were trying naturally there was always the option of fertility treatment, there was a back-up plan. I don't feel like I have one anymore. The next step for us is deciding to stop but that decision is one that comes from feeling like I have no other options, not because I want to be child-free. In a sense it's a bit like being backed into a corner and that's never a comfortable feeling.

Sorry I haven't had chance for a more complete reply, I've got to head off so will pop in tomorrow no doubt!

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Right, students dispatched and dog collected from vets so just the sofa for me now.

Back to the 'is this what I want' question. I spent a long time mulling this over. I came to the conclusion that it was what I desperately wanted but self preservation kept me telling myself it would be ok if it didn't work. I'm not particularly goey over babies and didn't feel any desperation to be a mum until it became clear I couldn't. I told myself over and over that it wasn't that important to me so that it would hurt less if it failed. Of course it doesn't matter what you pretend to yourself, a failure still hurts like hell. And in hindsight, now I can look back I did want it more than anything. Being a mum was what I wanted. I was blasé and cool about it all at the time because I'm shy and secretive and didn't want anyone to know I hurt so badly - I was too ashamed to admit to anyone in case they thought I was bonkers and also ashamed to admit i couldn't be a mum. Then one day I realised I had stopped trying to have a baby and was trying to beat IF instead. I know I would have loved a baby with all my heart if it had happened even though my battle had changed though. Sorry list my train of thought there and just rambling now ;-)

I think our goals maybe change along the way though and that's why Janie's single friends don't seem so desperate for kids. I fell into my wonderful marriage after some particularly abusive stuff so my aim was just to find a man I could trust and was safe with. I found that and then changed my goal to a couple of kids. Obviously that was reduced to just one kid when things got tough. Now my goal has changed again and all I want is to be happy and free from the mental health team. Our expectations change to fit where we are in life. I guess many single women are just aiming for a partner to share their life with because that's the first hurdle. Maybe we are just greedy and always want one thing more?

That all sounds a bit miserable I suspect but its not meant to. My pooch has got an infection after an op which is a big worry and we all know how pets sadness can rub off on us. Oh and we just cancelled out next snowboard trip because my season is properly over :-( Can we call my post philosophical instead of miserable lol.

Katxxx

PS. JBT you say lovely things xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies have a great weekend... nothing to report...

Kat sometimes it's nice to hear nice things, especially when it comes from people you don't know... those statements are usually pretty spot on! 

Told dh last night that I want one more try, but I can't do it in the current living situation... he didn't respond... did i tell you all that one day he asked me if we won the lotto what would you do with the money my top 3 included putting aside funds for ivf... when i asked him what he'd do funding for ivf was not even on the list   it was a little sad for me! 

Anyway I have a funeral out of town tomorrow and then a birthday dinner for my brother in law on sunday... sent out another resume this week...   i'll get an interview...

Talk soon ladies


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## fluffy73 (Sep 2, 2012)

Hello ladies

thanks for your support.  

Managed to drag myself back to work, thought i was doing well until i found out a colleague has just announced that she is 11 weeks pregnant. Its just wonderful at my work, one pregnant and one about to drop.  All the talk is about scans, names, baby clothes etc and what makes it worse is that i had mentioned to my work colleagues i was going for IVF.  Do women not stop to think about how we feel!  Is is only me that gets jealous, im even jealous of the sheep and birds, knowing that in the next few months they will be having babies....

Is this normal? I feel as if my hormones are going up and down!


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

Fluffy, totally normal so don't worry!! I dread the day people tell me their pg... All I think is why can't it be me??!! Xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - boys think differently to us girls. To them Lotto means toys, toys and more toys I suspect. You will get an interview. You will get an interview. You will get an interview. xxx

Fluffy - maybe it's not the fact that the sheep and birds will be mothers, maybe it's just the feeling of enforced happiness you are dreading? Spring is supposedly full of joy and you don't feel that way. For what it's worth though I think every feeling and emotion we have on this journey is 'normal' and ok to feel. I hope spring does bring you some joy though, even the sun shining and the days getting longer might make you feel like smiling just a little. 

Jess - I wish it could be you too xxx

Katxxx


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## Sun Flower (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi ladies
I hope you dont mind me jumping in, I have been reading this thread with great interest as I keep asking myself the question of `when is enough, enough?` all of the time at the moment.

We are currently preparing for another FET now and I am on lots of meds which make me emtional anyway, but I have been crying a lot and have come to the conclusion that I am bored with treatment, bored of taking the meds, bored of talking about it, bored of planning it, bored of pouring money into it, bored of letting it control our lives and mostly importantly my every waking thought! 

I dont feel anger towards it anymore, I just feel so disengaged from it, is this my own self preservation? expecting another negative and preparing for the worst? does this mean I am coming to terms with stopping treatment soon? I was told once by a lady who had endured years of treatment (and failed to have a baby) that you know when its time, and when you do stop it really is OK and life goes on......thas was a reassuring thought, although I did feel some resentment towards her as she married and has very young step children which enabled her to fulfil her maternal instincts role, something I would not be able to do as there are no step children or even young family member for us.

My problem is, I am slowly coming to terms with stopping treatment, but my DH is not. He wants to keep going until we get a baby but I have explained that it is not always the case. Most clinics quote 3 cycles as the guarantee for getting pregnant, Im on my 9th cycle now!!! feel like a lost cause  
and it makes me feel sad that he is prepared to watch me go through teatment time and time again even though it is making me more and more unhappy. We talked about it this afternoon and he admitted it makes him sad to think we could walk away from this long journey with no baby to show for all of the years of heartache and we both agreed we are scared of what to do with our lives, if we stop treatment. This is all we know and all we have done for the last 5 1/2 years!! its so hard to move on, part of me thinks we are addicted to it. Does anyone else feel like that?

sorry for the long post, its good to get it all off my chest, I hope some of the things ring true with you ladies and you can reassure me that I am normal!   

best wishes 
Sun Flower xx


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## crazyroychick (Aug 21, 2012)

I know exactly how you feel sunflower I felt as if I was becoming obsessed by it all, all I could think about was next treatment, when could we start, what could we change, would that be the one when we got our baby!

We have now decided to adopt and I have never felt more positive, yes I do still have days when I think should we have given up but I know deep down I had to for my own sanity!  Plus there are never any guarantees we could have cycled forever and still never had a baby.

I really   this next FET gives you a BFP and you don't even have to think about where to go from here xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies.

The last few days have been a bit of a blur. I should really be working just now but I also really wanted to pop on here and say a brief hello. I've been in a bit of a tailspin for a couple of days as I had to go through the process of sorting out flights, accommodation, time of work etc for treatment. This was set against a constant backdrop of questioning questioning questioning whether I really want to do this again. I really want to write a full post about everything that has whirred through my head over the last couple of days but I have got to get some work done for tomorrow so I can't. I just tried to summarise it but it sounded ridiculous. So I am going to come back in a couple of days when I have more time and plonk my thoughts down because I think it will be helpful (for me anyway) to read back over them in a couple of months time. 

I took my dog for a walk with my friend today and I was trying to explain the whole mess of emotions that I've been through in the last couple of days and she said something that really clicked for me and where I'm at (which is freaking out as much about it working as not working). And that was just to focus on the positives of either outcome. Not the pros and cons... just the positives. I don't know why it worked so well for me ... maybe it just simplified it all.. I can get so bogged down in all the interlinked factors that I just can't think clearly any more. So this really helped. I might come back on here in a few days and write my list. 

Kat - I've decided I'm going to use my time in Thessaloniki to read up and learn about mindfulness. I'll have 10 days largely on my own in a sunny climate so I think it will be ideal to get stuck into something like this. I was feeling so resentful about the lengths I am having to go to with this treatment but this way I can feel as though I might get something really beneficial out of it. If I understand it correctly then some of it is to do with just letting emotions pass. Feeling them and experiencing them but recognising they are not a permanent state. I think this could be really helpful for getting through the dark days of another negative. Can you recommend any particular books on mindfulness? I'll look at the one you already mentioned. And as for the whole 'hierarchy of needs' ideas, I guess it's at least good to recognise this as it must surely help us to stop and appreciate what we do have (obviously I fly off the handle at anyone else who tells me I should do this... DH's Mum is forever saying this to me and I really just feel like punching her). But actually, there is some foundation in it. It's OK and natural to feel all these other emotions about what we can't have... but it's good to look both ways. 

Sunflower, I know EXACTLY what you mean about feeling bored with the whole thing. You sound like you have had a really long journey and again I feel humbled. I think part of what is helping me to see this as my last treatment is that I have really focused on what could fill the gap that lies ahead... to the point that I'm actually excited about it. I know that treatment with send me crazy again but I am really hoping that there will be some relief. I am looking forward to binning all the supplements, burning all the paperwork and just getting on with life again. Obviously there will be big ups and downs and from what other ladies have said, that final decision will throw up some new emotions to contend with too. In some ways my biggest fear is that I get a much better response at this new clinic..but not a BFP.. and how that might make me feel. It would be better if it was an unequivocal end. For me anyway.

JBT - men are just programmed differently. Mine would have been exactly the same. In fact.. I think we have had that very same conversation...

Jen / Nosilab - hope you ladies are doing well.

Take care everyone

Janie xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies

I've really missed chatting to you all, I have been following and reading but work has been so stupidly busy that I just haven't had time to reply, and then I've been exhausted by the time I get home.  I love this thread as I agree with and can relate to so much that's said, it makes me feel 'normal' again.

Thanks to everyone for asking after me, and asking about mine and DHs counselling session.  Unfortunately the session was cancelled as our counsellor was poorly.  That in itself wasn't a huge problem but what made it worse was that DH is now mega busy with work until mid March, so our rescheduled appt is now not until the 20th March - that made me cry!!  What a numpty I am!!  Anyway, I think my tears made me panic a bit and so booked an individual appt for me next week, although I'm now thinking of cancelling it - I just don't know, I'm so confused  

Kat, so sorry to hear you've been in so much pain.  How are you feeling now?  Hope you don't mind me asking but what's the difference between standard counselling and physio-for-loonies? (Love that phrase!).  Love what you've written in answer to the "is this what I want" question, I didn't think you were rambling at all, I thought you wrote it really well.  Hope you're pooch is ok?

Janie, glad Jen and I were able to recommend an IF book for you, have you managed to buy a copy?  I know this sounds totally crazy but I'm considering buying a second copy so I can use that one to lend to friends and family (a couple have asked to borrow it) as I don't want to give them my copy with highlighted sections in case it gets lost.  Glad to hear you had a good weekend with your childfree friend, I think sometimes it's good to be challenged, and sounds like you had a few laughs along the way too!    I really like what your friend on your dog walk said today, about only thinking of the positives whatever the outcome, rather than a pros and cons list.  I might try and take that on board too.  When is it you fly out for tx?  It must be soon?  As for the Mindfulness, I haven't really done any but know a little bit about it, but have recently bought the book (inc CD) that Jen recommended by Jon Kabat-Zinn.  When work isn't quite as hectic (!!) I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it    Re does the IVF process make ttc much harder, I'd say the answer is yes.  When I was talking to my counsellor about me struggling to come to terms with my pg friend and that we'd both been ttc for 4 years, she said the difference in emotions/coping is that she hasn't had tx and had only tried naturally, whereas I'd had 2 years of tx, so I was much more emotionally involved - if that makes any sense at all?!

Sun Flower, I understand what you mean when you say you feel disengaged with the whole process, I do too.  Even though it's what I still want (I think?!) I certainły don't have the same momentum as I did when we first set out.  I think I am just becoming tired and bored of it all, has IF finally beaten me?!  Who knows, but it's been a long tiring and emotional journey - and I haven't done any where near as many cycles as you, you must be made of strong stuff and I take my hat off to you.

Jen, oh no!  What does a toxic thyroid mean?!  That doesn't sound good?  Hope you're ok??  What was the scan result of your torn lateral collateral ligament?

Big hello to all the other lovely ladies, sorry I haven't had a chance to do more personals but I am reading and agreeing with you all and sending you all big hugs  

xxx


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## Sun Flower (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi ladies

Thank you so much for your replies and for making me feel welcome on this thread   

Crazyroychick - wishing you all the very best with your adoption journey, I have thought quite a few times that I would like to explore it more and maybe attend one of the info sessions with our local council but DH is against it, for now! once we come to a conclusion about treatment maybe he will see it differently, but in his mind, he is just not there yet, whereas I would like to know more...

Nosilab - good luck with your counselling sessions, sounds like they really help, it is certainly good to get a different and neutral perspective on these issues, and a joint session sounds like a great idea.

Janie - I also like what your freind said about seeing the positives of each outcome, it is so true and certainly something I will try and do from now on   I was also nodding as I was reading your post, I especially like the idea of burning all fertility paperwork, that would feel great   I still have a huge bag of needles and drugs from years ago (probably out of date now) and I really should take them to the local pharmacy for disposal, maybe its time for an early spring clean!

My Dh treated me to a meal out last night as things have been tense all weekend with lots of silly arguments, we had a lovely time and laughed and chatted about general stuff but steered clear of `fertility talk` it always ends in him going quiet and me in tears, so for us I think we get on with this FET (next week) and then pending that result, its time to make some serious decisions  

I will be reading this thread with interest and popping in here to put down my thoughts and feelings about where we go next........

best wishes to you all
Sun Flower xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Firstly, Nosilab, crying when your therapy is cancelled does not make you a numpty. One of my friends called me last week and she was in bits because her session was cancelled and it took a long time before she was calm enough to talk rationally. Its normal to be upset when you feel let down. And before you cancel your individual appt, write that list of positives for going versus not going. I think you´ll find its worth going 

OK, ´physio-for-loonies´ is psychomotor physiotherapy. I just looked up the proper translation for it and its not very big in the UK at all, unlike here. I discovered it when I was in the loonybin and I only know about my own treatment and not what else it can be used for. For me its about accepting that feelings aren´t dangerous. I can let an emotion wash over me. I can feel it, shed a tear if needed, and then let it pass me by and move on unharmed. It about accepting that some things are real, things your can hear, touch, smell, taste etc and if you can focus on those things then the ´unreal´emotions can´t harm you. Its good for depression, anxiety and no doubt lots of other stuff too. The lady I see is the same lady I saw in the hospital so we have a good relationship and she saw me at my worst. Its a safe place for me to go to the ´dangerous´places in my head and then come back again to the reality using Mindfulness type stuff.

Sunflower - I realised something over the weekend after you mentioned your friend fulfilling her maternal instincts with her step children. We stopped tx and were approved for adoption (we later withdrew out application) but the wait is about 4 years to go and collect your lo so we got a puppy. It wasn´t a conscious decision to get a puppy instead of a baby, I´m not that bonkers   , but in hindsight it was an outlet for my need to nurture. He was a challenge and he used up sooooo much of my time that I didn´t really have time to miss my tx addiction. And do you know what, I did a bl00dy good job with him. He is a lovely boy with so much (maybe too much  ) love to give and he is real head turner on the street because he is so gorgeous. He is also a complete mummys boy too which I love. I´m not saying get a puppy, I´m just saying that life does go on, your friend is right, and there are other ways to nurture and other ways to have a fulfilled life. I guess we just have to look a little harder for it thats all  . And for what its worth, I do think you know when enough is enough. Trust your heart on that one and don´t stress over what is the right decision. There is no such thing as a wrong decision. I also think personally that it does become an addiction. Not in the same way as other addictions probably but because of the need to beat it. If you can´t do something right then you just try again and again until it works ....... a bit like tx maybe 

Janie - I can´t recommend a book on Mindfulness I`m afraid because I´ve not got any but I have physic on Wednesday so I can see if she can recommend one although I think Jen might be able to help you. My friend keeps telling me to read Eckhart Tolle but I´m not sure if that Mindfulness or just general self-help. She swears by him though so maybe worth a google. I guess you know how important vitD is for tx so make sure you make loads of it out in the sun in Greece  And more importantly, where did you book for skiing?

My pain got worse and I had a trip to A&E over the weekend to ask for something more hardcore. Its a more serious injury than I thought and I have a new MRI appt for tomorrow and then we´ll be discussing surgery   . And the pooch had an op on a broken leg before christmas and he has got an infection around the metal plate they put in so we are true sofa buddies now. We look a right pair out for our daily hobble down the road. I´m really self conscious now about the thing about dogs looking like their owners ......... we even have the same limp  .

Katxxx

PS. Just so you know. Several of you are going to be staring tx soon and I will likely duck out of tx chat during that. You all know I´m beyond the jealous ´why can´t it be me´stage and I do genuinely want you all to get BFPs but I´m not sure that talking about the nitty gritty of ec and et will help me, especially when I´m a bit peed off with life, lying on my back on the sofa in agony. Unless I´ve got it wrong, I think this is a thread where we are allowed to be a little selfish and come and go when times get tough


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - I just looked up Eckhart Tolle and its not Mindfulness at all. I did read some of the 1 star reviews of one of his books on Amazon though and had a good giggle   . Not my thing at all. Wait for Jen to recommend her Mindfulness book and I´ll ask my therapist this week too.


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hello lovelies!!

Just to add to the mindfulness discussion - books by Jon Kabat-Zinn are really good, although I found the practice a bit hard going.  Oddly though, I always realise that the times I have 'no time for mindfulness' are the times I probably need it most!!

I have a couple of alternatives:
1) The online course Be Mindful Online - website is the same name.  It was £40 and I found it a useful way to get the basics.  You get some tools to help you along the way (mp3, demos, sheets to track progress and 'homework' to apply to everyday life.
2) The second thing I did was join a yoga and mindfulness course near home.  There's quite a few of these about, best to get a recommendation if you can but I picked lucky in my case.  It's a perfect combo for me, I love both the stretchy bits and the calming bits.
3) From my yoga course, both the Kabat-Zinn books and Mindfulness for Dummies were recommended.  I've been bought the latter for Xmas and am halfway through.  It's quite nice and bite-sizey with a CD for routines to help.

Anyway, gotta dash - still in job hunting and interview hell!!

Lots of love MrsP xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Gah.  Hero to zero today!  Where is my positivity from earlier?

This is just so damn hard.  I changed my forum profile to state it was end of treatment for us.  I felt ready to take this little step, but it put me on a downer for the whole day.  I think it's because I'm really tired.  Job hunting was intense and I was fighting a cold all last week between cramming on company histories and practising my 'best face' for the world.  Then I went away to my sis-in-laws to spend half term with my niece and nephew and I love them all very much.  I even thought about how, if it never happens (it feels that is ultimately what I'm facing) if I could put some of my money towards uni for them both, if they choose that road.  So all good intentions.

But people don't see the other side of my 'bright face on it'.  I'm a very positive person, but today I'm so tired I can't put on the act.  I was meant to be talking to a friend of a friend who owns a consultancy today, but with two interviews on the go, I don't feel I have room in my head to take on another set of parameters and choices to think about.  Alongside this, we are selling our old house (currently renting) 200 odd miles away.  DH is a lovely man, but he doesn't get it, I think I'd like to adopt but he's too frightened of the process.  This really makes me angry because doesn't he think 2 years of IVF was frightening for me?  I had to force myself to get some groceries in today, I couldn't face it.  I've got bootcamp tonight, which appears to be the only time I feel I've got a purpose that isn't stressful.  Actually, that's a lie, I've been stressing all day about eating crap at my sis-in-laws at the weekend, so even that is exhausting.  Eventually I decided to have a nap and a rocky road cake.  I feel better for the sleep, I recognise it's really tiredness.  I've got a presentation to prepare for next week (details to be emailed to me 'sometime') and a technical test which if I pass, I might, just might be back in the rat race.

As for IVF, I'm feeling angry that it's taken so many years of my 30s away from me.  I know this is probably a good sign, as I'm clearly at the anger side of acceptance.  We are still trying naturally, but it's still all my bloody responsibility.  The ARGC suggested supplements for DH, I had to go out and get them, I keep the house running, the fridge stocked, I organise our nights out, and even when it comes down to sex, he asks 'Is it a performance night tonight?' or 'Is it shagging season yet?'  I don't think he realises that, apart from trying to raise a smile for me, I can't take feeling responsible for everything anymore.  I think it's likely to be that I'm overcompensating for not working (everyone elses idea) and being a crap baby maker.

Ah. Breathe. Mindfulness   Not coming to me today.

Sorry for the me post.  Yes, I've had counselling, but that just made me feel worse this time around - the suggestion is the 'unexplained' means I've got some mental block with parenting (likely to be due to my parents divorce when I was 6 weeks old).  Thanks.  So now I'm rubbish just because of OTHER peoples actions.  Great.

I don't know where to go from here.  I'm not sure if I should try an entire month of not seeking out ways to cope, or researching infertility or babies generally.  I sometimes look at my history with disbelief.  At least I know PCOS is likely to be responsible for some of my issues, hence the 'natural' approach and trying to have goals that are health-related rather than just to facilitate baby making.  I'm still rattling with supplements though.

Anyway, need to get ready for bootcamp, perhaps an early night and some sleep and I am likely to not be as hard on myself tomorrow.  I've got some things I need to do in prep for interviews and present myself as a good employee prospect to people.  Glad I put off a few phonecalls as I wasn't in the right mood for that today.

Lots of love MrsP xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh MrsP massive (((hugs))) coming your way. It's sounds like you really do need some sleep and a little tlc from yourself. And therapy is not therapy if it makes you feel worse afterwards. Your counsellor did a bad job there. Maybe this is a ridiculous suggestion but how about a couple of months off from ttc? Avoid sex at the right time and just focus on one thing at a time. Job applications now and ttc in a couple of months. You are not wonderwoman even if you wish you were ;-) Treat yourself as you would treat your best friend if she was in your shoes. Be kind to yourself and write your DH a shopping list for this week.

I really hope tomorrow is brighter for you. 

Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh Mrs P. Big hugs from me too.  I can totally empathise with that feeling of a sudden crash when you have been doing everything in your power to be positive ... and even genuinely feel positive. Sometimes my feelings of positivity are almost manic .. I think I get carried away with the fact that I'm just not feeling under the black cloud of IF for a while and I feel so determined to keep it that way. And yes, it can be really frustrating when people only see the bright side face. I think this is sometimes why I end up avoiding people altogether. I don't want to seem too down and depressing but if I'm upbeat then people seem to think well that's it's, I'm better, and of course, I'm not, I'm just having a good day. But I guess the good days will start to be more frequent than the bad days.

I have to say, I just don't get your counsellor's comments about treatment.. perhaps I have misread it? He/she isn't seriously suggesting that a diagnosis of 'unexplained' means that your body is preventing you from getting pregnant because you have 'unresolved issues' is she? I must have read that wrong. I have been really inspired by some of your posts MrsP with all your positivity and determination with the new job etc. But sometimes you just need to be kind to yourself. It sounds like some time out from it all would really help you. I really hope you get a good nights sleep (as a long-term insomniac I know that can be all that's needed to shift the mood sometimes) and tomorrow is a better day for you.  

Kat - you mentioned people discussing treatment on this thread and your need to duck out. I was actually thinking about this yesterday and I personally don't plan to talk about the details of my treatment here ... This thread has become a really important place for me to help sort my head out about the decision making process. I'll no doubt update you guys later with the yay or the nay but that's around about where it will end for me personally anyway. If this round doesn't work out for me then I'm fairly certain I'll be making my way onto the Moving On thread and I know I wont really want to hear any more about the nitty gritty too. I also HAVE to respond to your post about your wee pupster. I'm assuming that's the wee man in your avatar. He's gorgeous! Sounds like you've done a great job with him. I know dogs aren't for everyone but I would echo your comments about them filling a little bit of the maternal void. I got my wee collie just after I was first told that I would need IVF. I'd wanted a dog for ages but we decided to bite the bullet and I've never regretted it.. although he's been quite a time-consuming challenge at times! Sorry to hear you're both injured but I have to say the vision of you both hobbling down the street did make me smile. Dogs rock. Oh - and yes, the important stuff.. we're off to Sansicario (nr Sauze d'Oulx, Italian Alps) next week. Can't wait!

Nosilab... lovely to hear from you. Sorry to hear about your counseling... how frustrating.  That doesn't sound stupid at all about buying a second copy of the book. I think it's a great idea. Sometimes it gets exhausting trying to explain to people why this is all so hard... and if someone else has summed this up then that somehow it even seems to give it a level of foundation that maybe others can accept more easily. I haven't got it yet but about to order as soon as I finish this post. I also struggle to get on and respond cos I'm shattered in the evenings so no worries about that... so long as we know you're out there and OK!

Sunflower, good luck for your FET. One step at a time I guess.  Glad you managed to get some time away from the whole IF nightmare to have some fun with your DH.

Hmmm. Talking about being knackered... 

Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Morning ladies!

Don't worry Janie, I'm still here lurking in the background 

Will reply again properly later, but firsty wanted to say that Kat, your boy is gorgeous (as Janie says, I'm guessing that's him as your avatar?) - just beautiful! I also agree with Janie, that _if _ DH and I do agree to move forward to FET then I don't want to talk about tx on this thread. I love this thread for sharing thoughts and emotions, not about the ins and outs of tx - there are other threads for that - I reckon this should be a tx-free zone (as much as poss of course) 

Right, best get on with work but will be back later to chat again properly....

Hugs to all


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

My brain isn't working too well today, I'm now loaded with cold and a chesty cough so bear with me if my thoughts are muddled! I'm rarely ill so I'm not making a very good patient. On the back of the knee injury I'm feeling pretty irritable. Hb has decided he needs to be away with work for a couple of nights - coincidence?!

I'll also sign up to the' keep this thread free of tx chat' idea; we're about to start but there are plenty of others places on here that are far more appropriate for that level of detail and it's refreshing to be able to talk honestly here about the fears and doubts, as well as all the off topic chat we get into   I would hate the idea that anyone would back away from here, this thread is so important for us all wherever we are in our individual journeys. Crikey, getting quite emotional about that one, blame it on the lurgy!

I saw a couple of requests for Mindfulness recommendations; for what its worth I've read the 'Mindfulness for Dummies' (Shamash Alidina) which was a good introduction. It gives some simple exercises to do and does a good job of explaining the principles in an accessible way. I also have 'The Mindful Way through Depression' co-authored by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I was initially a bit put off by the title (even though I know I have been through periods of depression) but found it really helpful. It tailors Mindfulness to help deal with difficult emotions in general and I think it's relevant for many situations. I recently leant it to a friend who has been struggling since the death of her mum  nearly 2 years ago. I was a bit wary as she's not really into anything too alternative but I saw her at the weekend and she said it's helped enormously, she has a different mind-set and doesn't feel as over-whelmed.

Sunflower - welcome, and many of your thoughts resonate. There's no easy answer as to when enough is enough though I do think you start to know when you're reaching that point. There are days when I feel certain that it's time to stop, other days when I'm not sure. I know in my heart this year will be the last year we do any treatment and that feels right. 

Mrs P - don't be too hard on yourself, it sounds like you're juggling so many things at the minute - that's bound to take a toll. I really hope a good session at bootcamp and a good night's sleep help a little. I agree that your counsellors comments were incredibly unhelpful. It's that sort of comment that does the profession more harm than good, there are some brilliant counsellors out there but they don't rely on blaming everything on some event in your distant past. That's not to say that your parent's divorcing hasn't impacted on you, but to suggest that it has caused infertility is just wrong on so many levels.

Kat - I'll be thinking of you today; it must be a worry to think surgery might be required but I hope you get some answers today that might ease the pain for you. It can be so wearing, and must be so frustrating to feel limited in what you can physically do  - I'm glad you have your gorgeous pooch to keep you company  

Nosilab - good to see you're lurking    A toxic thyroid isn't anything serious (I was just being melodramatic!) It's basically an area of over-activity which they usually kill off with a radioactive injection. For now they will monitor it and at some point give me a bone density scan as there seems to be a link with osteoporosis. 

Janie - I found myself nodding at your manic comments. I feel like I've struggled with low moods for a long time and when they lift and I feel 'normal' I want to grab that with both hands (and feet) and cling onto it. I tend to find myself throwing myself into things, as if I'm trying to make the most of the positivity whilst it lasts. The flip side if that is it can be a bit exhausting, and it starts to feel a bit false, as if it's forced. I think Mindfulness again could come into play here and just give me space to breath and be. 

AFM - apart from this hideous cold I'm trying to deal with stresses at home. Much of MrsP's post had me nodding, my hb just doesn't seem to get it at the minute. I'm trying to cut him some slack as he's trying to set up a new business and it's all pretty stressful (he won't earn anything for at least 6 months and is being threatened with legal action by his old boss) but I just feel really lonely. He's just so distant and cold at the minute and although I know there are reasons for it it's still upsetting. He's meeting with solicitors today so hopefully we'll have a clearer picture of where things are heading (the general consensus is that his old boss is just making waves and there are no grounds for action).

Anyway, that's me! I'm off to Pilates tonight - I think me knee will just about let me. I always feel calmer after Pilates so hopefully it will work it's magic tonight  

Take care all


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks ladies - I posted a reply about 2 hours ago but it got twarted by a power cut - we seem to get it loads in our road....
Suffice to say, sleep has done me a bit of good - enough to get my warpaint on, focus on the job hunting and have a bit of mojo back.
Thanks for all your lovely thoughts - particularly comforting was your shock at what line my counsellor was taking.  It didn't feel right which is why I decide to cut loose last week.  But when you are feeling down, it's easy to pull all your thoughts into one great mega stress ball.

Anyway, I have to dash as I've got a tech interview tomorrow morning at 10am, and I've done no prep.  Will write tomorrow xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oooh lots of luck tomorrow MrsP 

Everyone - yep that's my boy  You should see how cute he is with his backpack on carrying his own camping gear ;-) Looks like another trip to A&E for me - my meds combo isn't good and messing with my head :-(


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

MrsP good luck!

Kat that sucks, hope you sort that out.

Just a quick one write tomorrow


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - What was the verdict on your knee? I don´t get ill either so I can sympathise with not being very good at it. I can also sympathise with your DH finding a reason to go away as I would happily leave my DH alone when he gets ill  . I think loneliness is one of the worst things to deal with and I guess it generally comes when our partners are so engrossed in something else that they just don´t have time to see how it effects us and then the vicious circle continues. I hope the solicitors meeting puts a stop to some of his stress but at the same time you can still ask for something back from him. Maybe something as simple as asking for a hug will make you feel a little more connected to him   . I guess weirdly, you´ll probably feel a bit less lonely if he is away for a couple of days? I´d rather be alone and lonely than surrounded my people and lonely for sure.

I´m glad I´m not the only one who doesn´t fancy tx talk. There are way more interesting things to talk about   

Speaking of interesting Janie - you lucky sausage heading off to Italy. Be careful though, let´s not go for a thread hat trick on the injury front    Italian vino though ........ mmmmmmmm

MrsP - I hope your newly renovated mojo worked wonders in your interview.

Nosilab - don´t work too hard

JBT and everyone else   

Well, its not my meds combo making my crazy again which is good news. The bad news is that I am just going crazy again   
I was told to think of 3 good things this morning so I´ll share those with you first; 1. -10 degrees but not a single cloud in the sky today, 2. I got some coffee beans ground yesterday and just made my first espresso from the bag which is sooooo satisfying, 3. Pooch is stood in the doorway with a squeaky toy in his mouth so he has obviously cleared his infection which is confirmed by his wagging tail.
Sometimes we take the small delights forgranted and should stop and appreciate even the tiny smiles every day.

Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Going for #4 on the good things list  I just heard from the vet and pooch can have his cast off on Friday


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat

I'm with you on the rather be alone with my loneliness front. I feel it far more acutely when I'm with others, when I feel like this I just need a bit of space to sort things out in my own head. Thank you for your thoughts on hb issues; you're right on so many counts. He is engrossed with what's going on and feels a huge responsibility on his shoulders. I have to keep reminding myself of that. I know he's taking his frustrations out on me because he can, he needs an outlet and maybe we need to find another one for him. We had a heated conversation last night but he sent a text this morning which helped bridge the gap but I think when he comes home we'll go for a walk along the coast. We're within walking distance of the seafront and quite often go in the late evening, it's a great way to feel reconnected and we usually talk more openly and honestly than we would just at home. I think we do need to give each other a big hug too so I will take your advice on that one!

I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling at the minute. Sometimes it's the little 'exercises' which can just help put the brakes on that slide. Listing good things is very much in tune with Mindfulness and something I keep promising myself to start doing. I guess now's a good a time as any, do you mind if I join in?! I have to say I'm now craving a good, strong coffee  after reading yours  (and it's great news about pooch!)

1. I had a really good, peaceful sleep last night. It's a pretty rare occurrence and I feel re-energised because of it (in between the bouts of coughing and sneezing!)
2. My knee is very much improved and I was able to do Pilates yesterday. As usual the class helped give me sense of peace   (Maybe that's why I slept so well?)
3. I'm meeting a couple of friends after work tonight to go and see the Rocky Horror Show. Although I'm not sure what to expect (and am a little scared to be honest!) I count myself lucky to have these 2 friends who have been very supportive over the years, and who are always good fun

I do think focusing on the things that make us smile, however small, can make a difference. Maybe because it switches the attention away from the things that are causing us pain (physically or mentally). Those things might still be there but introducing good things into the mix just redresses the balance a little.

Anyway, that's my thoughts for the day. Hugs to all  

Jen xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

ps - Kat, I apparently have a small tear in the ligament but it's pretty minor and the chiropractor was happy that the knee is stable (ie no lateral movement). I have strengthening exercises to do but he doesn't think there'll be any permanent damage. He wasn't impressed that I'd carried on skiing but hey-ho!


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Dear girls,
I hope you don't mind me joining you. I've been reading this thread and honestly there is so much of it that I could have written myself. I can totally identify with all the emotions, experiences, thoughts, hopes and fears that have been shared so openly here and I've got a great deal of comfort from them.
It's 2 months since my last BFN and I am at the enough is enough stage. After BFN no 3 I was in bits, had to take time off work, then pushed, really pushed myself to do one more. After a fantastic year of trying to build a childfree life, I actually had a conversation with my lovely counsellor about whether or not I really wanted to do it, as I could see and feel all the benefits of a childfree life but I thought about having no regrets and had one more go. 
It didn't work and here I am trying to pick up the pieces. Where is all the positivity about a childfree life? Was I just kidding myself? I think hope was clouding my judgement as I thought I was going to be lucky. Now I feel so sad. It's just not going to happen for us. I can't do this anymore. Even though there is such a strong pull to just give it one more go, I can't because I don't think I could get over it again and I'm too worried about losing my mind! Besides anything else my DH would be having none of it!
DH is a great man, lovely lovely person who sees a life full of adventure and fun. I am inclined to adopt but he isn't really, he is just so happy with things as they are. This is how I want to be, but I feel anxious about the future. I'm not enjoying my own company at all at the minute. I just want to be the old, happy-go-lucky me before I became so obsessed with IF.

Janie, what you wrote about having a sudden crash after trying so hard to be positive- that is 100% me! This happens to me every couple of weeks - when I feel good I run run run and think I can take on the world. And SunFLower, that anger, that disengagement is something I can totally empathise with from my last treatment. But there's every chance this could work for you and I so, so hope it does.

Someone else - I'm sorry I can't remember who - said that IF has nearly become an addiction, someone else said a project. For me all these things are true too. So now, I'm in limbo, and it's like 'what do I do now'?

So sorry about the me post. I'd really love to be part of this thread - I too have discovered mindfulness and have got more and more interested in it. This fella is great - http://www.padraigomorain.com/ some of his exercises are so so simple and can be done anywhere. I think that's the joy of it!

Anyway, have a nice evening everyone, apologies if I've rattled on too much!
Rosie


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't have the energi for anything other than a welcome (((hug))) for rosie xxx
Give yourself time. You need to grieve for the loss of your hopes and dreams (however distant you convinced yourself they were) before you can even begin to find your childfree positivity again. It's in there somewhere but just buried under all that sadness for the time being. Hang in there and treat yourself kindly.

I did smile at you not enjoying your own company right now. I reckon a few of us may feel like that but I bet we would all love each others company!

I'm whacked - I got a little hysterical at fysio-for-loons today - so need to take my own advice and think tlc.

Night all,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Check out Jeremy Vine on Radio2 yesterday - its about the realisation that you´ll not me a mum. Its very good actually and worth a listen.


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## staceysm (Nov 18, 2010)

Nordicat,

Just board crashing, I hope I don't offend anyone.

Jeremy Vine read out a post from Kat from Norway who had 9 failed cycles.  I thought it may have been you?  I know I am not in your situation, but I felt that what he and the nurse from Zita West said was very good.  Normally they say that people should just move on and accept it, but they was very sensitive about it.

I will hop of now.  But lots of hugs ladies.

X


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Stacey - I've not heard the whole thing yet but I did send an email yep. It started really well didn't it? None of the usual 'nobody should have ivf' or 'get over it' type comments. It showed us that our grief is normal. I doubt you'll offend anyone here, none of us like to see others joining this board xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Ladies

Just a quick one from me as about to run out the door. Kat, firstly, hurrah for pooch getting his cast off... that really is good news. Sorry to hear you've not been having such a good time yourself though. Take good care of yourself. Oh that sounds so inadequate when your posts are always so insightful. I'll definitely try and listen to the Jeremy Vine thing as soon as I get a chance. I like the idea of 3 positive things. I'm going to mull this over some more. Have sent off for various books on life after infertility, child-free by choice (OK, not exactly the situation but I thought it might provide some really positive insight) and also mindfulness for dummies... I have a tendency to give up with these things so thought I'd choose a book to start with that might help me understand the basic principles without too much heavy stuff.

Rose - welcome, sorry that you're here but good to know that you are finding at least some comfort in this thread. I read your post with interest as I think right now I could be where you were before you started round 4....  

Jen - glad your knee is doing a bit better. How was the Rocky Horror Show?! Sorry to hear things been difficult at home. It sounds as though you and DH have a pretty tight relationship and that DH just needs some space to deal with the stresses of the here and now. I hope he gets things sorted out as obviously a nerve-wracking time with setting up the business. 

Nosilab, Mrs P, Sunflower, JBT and everyone else, hope you're having good days.

Sorry I don't have time for more, just about to run out the door. You probably won't hear much from me for a week or so as going to have a week away from all things IF when we hit the slopes. 

Take care all
Janie xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi ladies,

Back again!  Thanks for your good wishes regarding interview.  It seemed to go well yesterday, despite oversleeping by 2 hours.  I had a great afternoon in the local tearooms with my best mate and her little boy.  He was grabbing all the grannies attention with constant 'cooing'.  Lovely!

Just listened to Jeremy Vine - heard your email Kat!  It was very sensitively covered and I was pleased to see the 'other side' of infertility being discussed, particularly as often the discussions are about condemning our choices/availability of treatment options.  It was a phone in that I really felt discussed some of the feelings I've had recently.

Janie - hope the slopes are good - all this skiing talk is making me think I should try it out!  Just wish my balance was better!  Have a good week away and enjoy yourself to the MAX!

Stacey - Hop away - I for one, am not offended!!!

NordicKat - I too have gone public with some of my feelings - my letter appeared in the Guardian a few weeks ago talking about how time out of the workplace for IVF is like a secret shame which should never be mentioned at interview!  This is despite me now thinking of it as a career-benefit - "look you can treat me like a male employee now"!  I was a bit mortified when it appeared - I'd written it about 10 days after the last BFN when looking for a job felt overwhelming.  Note to self, don't write to newspaper columns when you are high on hormone drugs.  But now, I'm glad I did it, and it was interesting to see the views people had of my situation.  How's your injury, lovely to hear the cast is coming off your dog - hooray!  I've had the '3 positive things homework' last month.  Kept blooming forgetting, then remembering, then forgetting!! Need a new brain I think.  Hang in there though - I think little steps make all the difference. I'm one of the worst for expecting everything to magically be ok in 2 seconds... I'm not good with patience and admire those who can be!

Rosie - you sound so like me.  I really had high hopes for my last cycle.  I now reflect and see I also wanted to have no regrets and 'no seeds of doubt' once it was over, whatever the result.  For me, I ended up with a few seeds of doubt despite my best efforts.  But I can't go back for further treatment without considering a lottery win and a lobotomy!  I jest, but it's not funny.  I need, for my own piece of mind, to focus elsewhere and find the things that make me happy again.  It's hard though, I have been in 'fertility-autopilot' for nearly 7 years.  I still take the supplements, I'm trying to lose weight, but my focus is more on rebalancing ME, for ME.

Moonshadow (Jen) - I think we are in a similar shaped boat re: DH.  I've made it my new resolution to be a bit more open with him about how his behaviour makes me feel.  I haven't managed it yet though.  I also am, in turn, taking a step back when I feel angry at him.  Usually, it's actually me being angry about something else but directing it at him.  We are off to the film club tonight and having a nice meal at a wine cellar beforehand.  I'm not going to broach the subject there, but perhaps it will open up communication again.  Small steps - should take my own advice shouldn't I?  But anyway, I think we all need to remember our relationships are partnerships and this is why it's so important to have give and take.  I am more worried about losing him than I've ever been - but I think it's partly because I feel determined that IF won't wreck us - but I need to remember that it's a bigger reason - I care for him deeply, I love him and he's my best friend.  But if we don't talk about IF it risks being something we never accept/come to terms with together.  Anyway, hope your knee is a bit better and the mindfulness techniques are helping too.

JBT, Nosilab, Sunflower -  hope you are all ok xx

Well, better get my bike out and ride the 3 miles into town.  Got to get my expenses reimbursed for travel to interviews by the Job Centre (a minor win) then a bit of shopping and a meal/film out.  Quite looking forward to it.  Had a nice 'me' day today - a change from all the job stress and internal turmoil of late.  Crazy stuff.

Take care and catch up over the weekend if not before - and thanks again for being there,

Love
MrsP xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Appologies in advance for a completely self absorbed, woe is me, irrational post but my brain needs to splurge and DH is busy with work. It's just not me to be so whiney :-( Oh and it's completely unrelated to babies.

I just had the results of my latest MRI and its good news in that things have not got worse, there is no hemorrhage and no need for immediate surgery. It's bad though and in the top 5 worst he has ever seen although the only prize for that is agony. He did say I was one of his bravest patients though, but I didn't bother to mention its because I'm a loon so have so much counselling I'm almost bereft of thoughts by the time I get  to his appt. Anyway, the good news has really upset me. It means all I can do is wait. I get up in the morning and wait for bed, that's my day today, tomorrow, and in fact every day now. F#ck the 3 good things each day, I can't find even 1 today! My counselling is about getting through the day, its not about dealing with any of the stuff that made me bonkers in the first place because I can't do physical be mental pain at the same time. My sick pay runs out in a month so I have to apply for some special thing I know nothing about, my shrink thinks I'll benefit from a psychiatric nurse weekly home visit which makes me feel like a small child. I'm supposed to work 8 hours a week at the moment and I have 4 hours to do tomorrow and the thought of just getting there brings tears to my eyes, let alone the fact that I know most of what I need to do tomorrow is desk based - ouch :-(

And the worst thing is I don't want to bother DH with it so its all another big lonely secret. Its been such an awful 14 months for him looking after his crazy wife and worrying about me every day and I can't face telling him how bad things are now. At some point surely he'll trade me in for a newer model. He wants to go to our cabin tomorrow but its 2 hours sitting in the car and I don't know how I'll get through that  but I don't want to let him down for the zillionth time.

Jeez, told you I was being whiney and pathetic. Thanks for letting me vent and I promise normal service will be resumed again soon.

Sorry, katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat, splurge away. For all the chat about 3 good things etc, sometimes you need to just rant. It sounds to me as though you have every reason to feel sorry for yourself just now. Living with physical pain is just horrible and I can't believe you're having to deal with that on top of everything else you're going through. I get the impression that a lot of the things that you value in life require a healthy body (boarding / trips out to cabins etc) and I guess that in turn that helps to keep the balance. I wish I could think of something positive to say but maybe that's not what you need right now, maybe you just needed to rant away. 

I suspect DH is extremely unlikely to trade you in for a newer model!!! You sound like a fantastic person and I'm sure he appreciates that. I think you need to tell him how you're feeling. Obviously I know nothing about you and DH but that is my gut instinct!

You're not whiney and pathetic, you have every right to feel  like you've been dealt a pretty sh*tty hand of late. Don't say sorry. 
Take care of yourself 
Janie xxx
PS. Obviously I'll be expecting 3 positive things in the morning though! (kidding....)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh, and Mrs P... I saw your post in the Guardian under the careers bit and guessed it was you! I actually said something on here about it but then I felt like I was 'outing you' or something so deleted immediately! It mentioned you moving North to South etc...  Hope you're well. xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat

You've every right to have a rant and the last thing you sound is pathetic or whiney. My heart really goes out to you - I had to put up with being only marginally incapacitated for a couple of weeks and that tested me. What you're dealing with is clearly in a different league. Not being able to do the things you love, and that give you a chance to escape for a bit, is just so unfair. 

You're dealing with a lot Kat, and you need and deserve the support of your hb. I can really relate to feeling like you're going to be traded in, there have been so many times over the past few years where I've struggled to understand why my hb has stuck around but when I question that the answer is always the same - because he loves me and I'm sure the same applies for you. It can be hard to believe it when you feel vulnerable. It isn't always easy but it is so important to be open and honest with him. Flip it round - if you knew he was in a lot of pain but didn't tell you, how would that make you feel? 

Is there something the two of you could do and enjoy at home this weekend? Even something simple like making a nice meal together and watching a movie.

Be gentle with yourself, you are definitely in need of some TLC at the minute  

Jen xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

I did want to say a quick welcome to Rosie too - I'm sorry you've found yourself her and that you've had such a tough time of it. I think we've all felt that pull to give it one last go and it can be hard to pick up the pieces afterwards. Don't be too hard on yourself, it's only 2 months since your last BFN - I've found it takes me varying times to get back to 'normal' after a failed cycle, it's nearly 4 months since my last BFN and there are still days I fall apart. What you wrote about wanting to be happy with the way things are and to just be able to have fun really resonated. That's what I want, but like you I just feel so uncertain about the future. I'm worried that I'll resent hb for being able to move on and enjoy life in a way I can't, I don't want to be a bitter old crone!

ps - I checked out your link on Mindfulness, it looks pretty good and I'll definitely be going back for a more thorough look.

MrsP - have everything crossed for you on the job front. I hope you managed to have a good night with hb? I'm trying to be honest about how I feel with hb too but sometimes it can hard to find the right balance can't it? I'm trying to learn to respond rather than react, to give myself time to take a step back and understand exactly what's going on. Sometimes it's more to do with how I'm feeling, if I'm feeling a bit vulnerable I'm more likely to take things out of context and take things personally when they weren't meant that way. Other times he* is* being insensitive and I'm right to pull him up, but it can be hard to do that in a way that doesn't descend into an argument at the minute. We're both trying though and for now, that's enough.

Janie - have a great holiday, and be careful! I was in Sestriere a few years ago. The snow was poor the year we went but with good conditions I suspect that whole area would be great 

Hi to everyone else, hope you're all ok. I've got my parents visiting this weekend. Fortunately me and hb both get on well with them so it will hopefully be a good weekend xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hello Kat - Just wanted to send lots of ^hug me^.  I don't think you are being whiney - you're having a perfectly normal reaction to your situation.  I twisted my ankle at the end of May, just as I got my strength back in my achilles after injuring BOTH in January training for a half marathon that never happened.  Mobility is horrid when you haven't got it and I can certainly sympathise big time with pain - particularly when your personal situation is different to how it used to be (for me I'm referring to my redundancy after working with treatment forever 'just round the corner' in 2012).  Mental and physical anguish is a horrid combo.  Although I got VR, I still had all the feelings of inadequacy etc. which I didn't expect as I'm usually a confident old bird.
As to what to do about it. Jeez, hard one.  I wouldn't face it alone, I know the feeling you mean about burden your OH, but really, as Jen suggests, if the roles were reversed, it can sometime help you see the situation differently.  I know for me, he also went through a grief stage when his workplace shut and I was there for him.  Never once did I think about trading him in.  And please note, he gets many, many opportunities to be there for me and hasn't traded me in either!  Sometimes he might need a push as I forget he isn't a mindreader though 
So perhaps concentrate on something to fill your time - and make sure you get some company too - don't let your man head into a cave (like mine sometimes does - hence the prod/shove required).
Big hugs  - always here for rants - just don't hold it all in lovely - let it out!

Janie - you made me giggle about 'outing' me - I'm a Leo so mostly am over the moon when fame hits - lol.  Funny as I was in the following weekend on the same page - this time as an advice giver!!  My DH keeps going on about my 'published journo' status.  So much more exciting than an IT worker!!

Jen - have a nice weekend with the folks.  We have a friend coming over and off out to a beer festival tonight.  TBH I would rather not go, more because of the calories and the pull to go to Bootcamp instead - but it's good to try to be moderate and not obsess over one thing I reckon.  Plus, it's the last night of freedom before the next set of interviews mid-week which, if I have no offer on my latest set, involves a presentation.... ugh!

Love to everyone else,
MrsP xxx


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hello everyone,


firstly thank you so much for your lovely welcomes and kind words. After years of lurking all over these boards I feel like I have found somewhere I can actually post. I also listened to the Jeremy Vine show as suggested here and thought it was such a refreshing albeit sad perspective on the whole thing. To hear of others who have been through the same thing as us just makes me feel so 'normal' again. This has all given me great comfort to the extent that I updated my signature...yikes! Now my mind has run away with me thinking I'm bloody manic - oh that release from grief and feeling sad is such a relief - but I'll sit with it for a while and see how it goes.
Kat - I wish I could give you a big hug, you've been through so much.  My heart goes out to you. I hope you will be ok and that you do find the courage to talk to your DH. It is better to get those thoughts out, but it is so hard.Whatever you think, I'm so so sure he just wants you to be ok. You are not pathetic at all - you are going through a really rough time and you're completely entitled to feel annoyed about it. Go easy on yourself. I think they call it self-compassion. Get the support you need, because you really really deserve it.
Mrs P - The beer festival sounds great. Have lots of fun with your friend. Hope the the whole job seeking goes ok.
Janie - enjoy the slopes, sounds fantastic!
Jen - thanks for your kind words. It helps so much to read that you have felt the same.I too am worried about resenting DH - and he has said he's worried about that too dear love him! There will be bad days and good days, just like you have said. When I feel good though I try to take on the world and that leaves me exhausted. I have to try to find a balance. Any tips? Oh and have a great weekend with your parents. Sounds lovely!
Anyway, I'm going to read for a while. Had to phone in sick because I am absolutely dosed. Have felt it coming on for weeks. In some ways I think it's my body reacting to the last couple of months since the BFN and I just really need a day in bed, of surfing the net, watching crap on TV and eating whatever I want! Pity the fridge is empty!
Thanks girls for being so honest -again, it's given me great comfort reading these posts.
all the best,
R x


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Quick one - news flash - I GOT THE JOB!!!!
Wonderful start to the weekend - I send my wobbly good vibes to you all xxxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Wow congrats and good luck!


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks JBT - hopefully it will spread a little luck around us all xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

I know i've been quiet, just very down. But i just wanted  to quickly say to you Kat big big hugs. You are not pathetic and as i've expressed before you are a brave soul deep within. One thing you can put down today as your positive is you friends that are the to listen and comfort you, so now you only have to have  2 more to find!
Sorry to hear about your pain as well i guess another positive  entry is that it could have been worse. Don't ever feel burdened when you have us to off load on. You are always there for us to offer some good advise when we  need it. 

Mrs. P i hope so too.

Catch up again soon.


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

JBT - big  to you honey - really hope you start to feel better soon.  Go easy on yourself I know I'm the worst for being impatient with myself when I'm down xxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thank you all for your lovely words. It means a lot more to read them than I imagined it would.

I'll be back soon,
Katxxx

PS. MrsP - well done you xxx

PPS. Just downloaded a mindfulness book for my kindle. It's by oli Doyle and might be rubbish but its on 77p so worth a punt.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Congrats MrsP, that's great news   I reckon that warrants a -  

Kat and JTB - big hugs to you both  . I hate to think of any of us struggling, I hope you both know you have your FF family to lean on.

Jen xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks Jen. How y'doing? xx

Kat & JBT - how was your weekend - hoping you are feeling a bit better xx

Love to everyone else - thinking of you xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks for asking Mrs P my weekend was not the greatest had 3 funerals only attended 2... a good friend of mine just found out that his wife lost her pregnancy (5 months) and they had been trying for years as well, it was a long shot that she would go to term as she has some genetic issues... anyway that was really sad he is taking it well but i gather she is not and who would right?! My step son really does upset me sometimes when he calls but I should know by now that we are never going to have a loving relationship... and more and more I feel this road is really ending you know there are a few reasons we have to move on financial (my #1 reason), emotional (my #2 reason) and physical (not an issue really) and with ss in the states his financial obligations are more than we can bare so unless I win the lotto anytime soon it looks like i need to come to terms with this dead-end. I am sad I must tell you and angry and hurt and jealous... 

I hope you ladies are doing well... 
Kat how are you lady? 
when do you start your new job Mrs P? 
Moonshadow thanks it is a struggle in so many ways how are you keeping? 
Rosie hugs to you hope you are feeling good today..

Hi to all...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - huge warm hugs coming your way xxx

Rosie - no decision is final so enjoy being free of it all for a while. Do you feel lighter? I still remember the day we decided to stop. I felt so alive and refreshed. It's not a permenant state of course and there are good me bad days for enjoy some well earned rest xxx

Aarrgghh! Parents trying to Skype. Back another day

Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ok, parents dispensed with. Not a lot of exciting news to share when you are confined to the sofa ;-)

MrsP - your Leo's wanting to be famous did make me smile. My best friend is a Leo and is desperate to be famous somehow. She refuses to sing, dance or get naked though and we are struggling to come up with other options lol. She has even resorted to stalking famous people?!?! The problem is my DH is famous and essentially a media whore and she is desperate to have his fame lol. I replied elsewhere, but book a surprise trip away for DH. Something special and secret just for the 2 of you xxx

Jen - I hope you had a lovely weekend with your parents. I hope giggles and wine were involved, hopefully both to excess. Big hugs for you though. IF takes its toll on all of our relationships but you'll fight on and team moonshadow will get through it xxx

Janie - if you read back after your trip. Mindfulness is really good for insomnia - I've been meaning to say that for ages. I need props to help me but you might not if you are more mindful than me.

Thanks for being so supportive all of you. I'm ok and I'm done with my moping about it. Moping doesn't stop the agony, it just makes me grumpy as well as sore. DH and I talked - thanks for the push in that direction ;-) And it seems he has many reasons to leave me but actually a prolapse isn't one of them. He has been good this weekend though and we went for a family walk which he usually refuses to do in winter but this time he took me and poochie out. GP appt tomorrow and I'm hoping for some miracle working or at least a referral to a miracle worker as I'm going crazy. Although I did adjust my painkiller combo so I could have a couple of glasses of wine before bed. I had to do it before the dr tells me tomorrow that its bad for me lol.

That's all from me. Life on the sofa is dull. Thank crunchie for iPhones and iPads so I can at least plan the next 10 years of holidays without having to sit up.

Lots of love,
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat you always happen to put a smile on my face when I read your posts  

I must say some of things you ladies talk about with your British humor and references I don't understand but it is quite entertaining... and wishful even though we are British influenced that dry humor/wit never stuck around. Unfortunately I can't relate to some of the articles and radio programmes though...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Well I'm glad you managed a smile today JBT and as its still early with you, i hope you can squeeze out at least one more smile today xxx 

Most of my posts are utter drivel though so just skip the bits you don't understand and you'll have missed nothing I can assure you. I'm flattered by the 'dry wit' description, usually I am called sarcastic and cynical ........
aaah, unless you were taking about the dry wit of the other ladies ;-)


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

No i was referring to you! and yes it is still quite early doubt I'll have any more smiles for today but thanks.. I too am said to be sarcastic... back to the people work... plantation needs assistance


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Kat - thanks for the 'surprise weekend' tip - this manic Leo is gonna put that into action tomorrow and, of course, find fame somewhere along the way!  I totally agree that iphones and ipads are awesome.  Why I spent the whole day surfing the internet and, of course, achieved zilch.  But I'm saving my brain for the assault come end of March when I go back to work... til then - it's on 'rest' and 'pleasure' mode methinks!

JBT - sounds like you had a really tough weekend  - I really hope there are more smile moments for you this week.  I start the week before Easter, so plenty of time to get myself ready.  A clothes shopping trip may be required as I think I've worked in dress down offices for too long.  It would be lovely if I enjoyed shopping trips, but I don't.  I just try things on, do the awkward teenager slump into the mirror and shout 'that won't do' before going off for a coffee.  Thus more coffee is drunk than clothes bought.  And it repeats.  Until the wardrobe is full which takes several trips!

Anyway, bedtime, up early tomorrow.... Night, night ladies xxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi all

I had a lovely weekend with my parents, plenty of coffee and cake, plus walks along the coast. For some crazy reason I gave alcohol and chocolate up for lent so I'm afraid no wine Kat. It must have been a moment of complete madness, I'm not religious and there have been too many periods of pointless abstinence in the past. But I'm just too stubborn to give up now! Damn my Capricorn tendencies.... 

JBT - that sounds like a tough weekend on many levels. It's ok to feel angry and hurt and jealous. It's not fair, and having a difficult relationship with ss must make a difficult situation even more so. Give yourself time to process all of this, it might not feel like it at the minute but you won't always feel as you do now. When times feel really tough I often tell myself 'this too shall pass'. It becomes almost a mantra but somehow helps with the darkest days.

AFM - I have the in-laws staying at the minute. As much as I try to be the patient, loving daughter-in-law they test me to the absolute limit. They had intended to only stay one night (they are visiting friends in the area, hence the visit) but announced last night they would probably stay another night to avoid rush hour traffic.  Oh joy, this might be the thing that is my lent downfall, now where did I hide the corkscrew...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh my goodness Jen! My in-laws drive me to drink too. I think though, considering the extenuating circumstances I think the Gods of Rioja and Godesses of Frescatti would forgive a small glass. Medicinal purposes and all that. 

JBT - there is stuff out there to smile about, it's just when you feel awful you have to turn every stone looking for it. Think small stuff. The lovely smell of something (the bakery had just bakes cinnamon buns when i was there today  ), the taste of something you ate, or how about the feel of the sun on your face (although maybe a cool breeze would be preferable?). Have you baked anything yummy recently? Jen is right though, it's a temporary state and things will get better.

MrsP - up early? You've only got a month of lying in left and you should make the most of it.

My Dr has referred me for an operation. Luckily my brain has decided not to process that information so the obvious fears have not emerged yet. I have also vowed not to google success rates or what can go wrong!

Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

God of Rioja - now there's a religion I could subscribe to   I am beginning to think that 2 weeks of voluntary abstinence is worth a pat on the back and celebratory vino...

Kat - an operation must feel pretty daunting but at the same time this is having such a significant impact on your life. If you possibly can I would stick to your resolution on not Googling. Listen to your doctor and trust in them. Have they been able to give you any indication of when it might happen? We'll all be here to feed you virtual grapes, and to listen to any fears you might have.

Now I really must do some work! The more I have to do the less motivation I seem to have. I think subconsciously I'm making sure I have to work late to minimise in-law exposure time....

Jen xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Jen - good luck with the in-laws tonight - i'm off to help gloss some skirting later this evening - rock n roll!
Kat - deffo step away from Dr Google - it just causes stress!  OMG I was in M&S and they had the bread going (the one thing I am struggling to give up) - oh the smell - it was delicious - I almost had to hurl myself out before I made any purchases!
JBT - hope today is a better day.
Hi to everyone else ^waves^
MrsP xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies, just a quick one from me as these ipad things are great for reading but not writing. Having great time on the slopes, we seem to have lucked out with snow and weather but rather stupidly didnt check that it was italian half term so our hotel is heaving with bambinos running around. Its almost enough to put you off wanting kids for life! Unfortunately, we got caught by junior ski school at the bottom of a chair lift and asked if we could take one of the kids up on the lift with us. Aside from feeling terrified that this little girl might slip through the bars at any minute i just felt really protective of her.  Arrgggh. Told dh at the top that little experience might just have cost us another 4k and 6 months of out life. Sigh.

Sorry for total lack of personals, just wanted to say hi. Am reading and thinking fondly of you all.

Janie xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat no googling, what would the surgery entail? and remember we are always here to help/listen/joke you get the gist.... nothing baking at the moment, haven't baked in awhile can you imagine that! i wanted to make something this weekend, a cheesecake of some sort I think I will do, will let you know how it turns out...

Jen I understand re in-laws trust me, i have one living with me... wine, rum oh hell my bar is my friend!

Janie you sound like the you having a good time  

Thanks for the concern ladies, I actually ran into a friend of mine who has done a couple of ivf cycles as well she however is 46 and thinking of giving it one more try.. and we were lamenting about the lack of support we have here... she was telling me of someone she knows who succeeded on her 10th try   anyway we chatted for a long while discussing future plans didn't make me feel that much better... and then another girlfriend of my told me today that she is thinking of adopting, she already has 2 boys naturally but she was adopted and feels the need to adopt... I am not sure if adoption is in my future have any of you thought of adopting? I'd love to hear your views... 

Mrs P I love to shop! I day dream about going shopping for my new job when i get one   I've worn a uniform at this job for so long i have no work clothes... well enjoy the next few weeks off before you start the new gig. 

Anyway night all...


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hurrah!! The in-laws left last night after all. I was like a demented crazy lady when I turned into our street and saw their car still there last night - I'm a little hormonal, wine and chocolate deprived and had not had a good day at work. The thought of an evening of them had me teetering on that edge between tears and rage but fortunately they were in the process of putting their coats on when I got in (it still took them another 45 minutes to actually leave - how do they do that!?) JBT - I don't know how you do it, I really don't. You deserve a medal.

I think sometimes friends tell of those people who succeeded on their 8th, 9th, 10th time because they think it is helpful; that it gives you hope. I know it's usually well-meant but it usually makes my heart sink. In a way I need to believe it won't work for us, I don't want to be left wondering whether one last try would have been enough. I know I haven't yet quite reached the end of the road but I'm on that path and need to stop hoping in order to save my sanity. You ask about adoption - I know it's not an option for us. My hb really doesn't want to and I'm not sure I do. I think part of that is because I won't allow myself to consider it, I can't force my hb to want to, but I'm not sure I could put myself, us, through that as well. I know it's something many people go on to do and I would certainly encourage you to give it serious consideration if you feel it may be for you.

Janie - lovely to hear from you and glad you're enjoying the skiing. It sounds a bit of a nightmare to be surrounded by kids though, even though I want my own I've never been a fan of other people's! Enjoy the rest of your week  

MrsP - hope you managed to get the painting done!

Jen


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Hi JBT. I am looking at adoption. I think initially I had massive worries about all sorts of things, whether I could cope with looking after someone else's child, especially if they had a troubled past, whether we would be strong enough to go through the whole process (which in the UK seems to be particularly torturous) and what other people would say (yes silly i know but having faced some vile comments about having IVF when that leaked out I was petrified). One day something happened - won't bore you with the details and something just clicked into place and I thought I can do it and we are looking into it as a way forward. Adoption might not be for everyone but it is definitely one avenue which I think might be an excellent route for us. Way I see it the whole IVF struggle has made us able to cope with anything, we're strong and that is just what some of the little ones in care need.

Good luck if you decisde to look into it.

Maisy


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks ladies for your response, I am not sure where my head space is regarding adoption to be honest and I know perhaps this is not the thread to be on but you ladies are always so supportive and we've been journying along for a while now so it was just a quick question, so just in case anyone felt offended sorry. I have brought it up to DH a couple of times and he is not receptive to it so that's that.

Maisy thank you and good luck, I have thought about it but not in any great detail and with any decision it's one you have to really consider.

Jen my dear a medal, i need a freaking straight jacket! I don't know how I do it either to be honest. And yes "friends" so think if they tell you oh so an so succeeded after try 20 you'll feel there is hope, NOPE! sometimes you just don't have to say anything, right?

Mrs P how is the shopping going?

Janie are you ok?

Kat you are awfully quiet I hope the pain has not gotten any worse...

Rosie I hope you are feeling a little better and your day off was at least restful. 

Have a great day all.

JBT


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just dropping in to say I hope everyone is okay, seems a bit quiet for a change!

I had a night out with work colleagues mid-week and was having a lovely time until one of the women (who knows we've had IVF and whose sister had several rounds of IVF) starting telling us all how easily she got pregnant and how you just need to do x, y and z. I was glad I wasn't drinking as I'm not sure I could have held it together, for some reason I'm quite emotional at the minute. She did text later on to say she realised I was a bit upset and was sorry so that's something, but then I spent most of yesterday fighting back tears. I hate how this can suddenly hijack your emotions. Today is a brighter day though and me and DH are off to the pics this eve and a friend is coming to give me a thai massage tomorrow morning (no idea what it involves and am feeling a bit nervous tbh!).

Anyway, I hope you ladies are all ok and have lovely weekends xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Jen - Yesterday was quiet wasn't it?  Goodness me, well done for holding it together, not sure I'd have been able.  Some people just don't think do they?  Glad you got an apology though - doesn't make it forgivable but helps.

AFM - DH was back from his course yesterday and I was really happy to see him.  I made us a nice mushroom risotto and we chatted over dinner.  Except it didn't take me long to go on a bit of a downer, saying that with work starting at the end of March, I wanted to have something to look back on from my year off that was exceptional and made me happy.  Big mistake.  He looked really hurt but then said 'its been hard for us both, I do recognise that you know'.  I felt terrible.  I held his hand and said 'I know, I'm sorry I've been a bit hard to live with', he said 'You've not been that bad, stop punishing yourself'.  So a few steps forward but then we changed the subject as it seemed the right thing to do.
So weekend, well up north for us, keep the insurers happy, but meeting up with lots of old friends tomorrow - including a girlie catchup over lunch whilst hubby seeks out some old work colleagues.  Then watching a live stream of Parsifal from New York Met Opera at the Picturehouse.

Hope everyone is ok - thinking of you all,

MrsP xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

(((Hugs))) to you all sounds like its been a demanding week for all of you.

I'm now completely overwhelmed by my pain so appologies for short (is that sighs of relief i hear from you all ;-) ) and infrequent posts. I'm reading but just can't muster the energi to post. A few other people have been kind enough to throw [email protected] into my exhausted head too and i can't deal with everything at once so i'm turning my phone off til monday  Now i may go and drink myself under the table!

Hopefully i'll be back to ramble on here next week but i need to get this pain under control first.

Happy weekends, 
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi lovely ladies  

Sorry I've been AWOL for a while, I don't know what's got into me, I blame work for making me stupidly busy over the last few weeks which in turn makes me knackered when I get home - it also meant no proper lunch breaks for web surfing. So all in all I've had zero energy. How very rude and inconvenient of my work place to do that to me lol  

Just been trying to catch up with what I've missed - it seems quite a lot!

Kat, I bet your little pooch looks mega cute and adorable with his little camping back-pack!  Very pleased to hear his cast is now off too.  Sorry to hear you've been in so much pain recently, that's just awful. But brilliant news that your doc is referring you for an op! I know it must be daunting but just think of the long term benefits and getting your life back on track, it truly will be worth it in the end.  You know we're all here for you    Btw, definitely step away from Google!  It will not be your friend!

Janie, sounds like you're having a wonderful time (apart from all the screaming/running bambinos!).  Enjoy the rest of your time there.

MrsP a massive   on the job offer!  That is absolutely brilliant news!  Well done, you must be so chuffed.

Jen, I'm really liking the sound of the Rioja God    You most definitely deserve a medal for putting up with the in-laws!  I'm glad you have your home back  

Kat, I've just seen your post about Jeremy Vine, not sure if it's still available to download but I'm going to have a look as that sound really interesting.  MrsP, was it you who wrote the article?  My brain has gone and can't remember now who said they'd written it?  Again, I'd be interested to read it, do you have a web link?  Btw, I'm also a Leo and for the majority of my life I've been painfully shy, but I think I'm making up for that now the older I get!  

Big hello to JBT, Maizy, Rosie (welcome) and anyone else I've missed.

Hope you all have a good weekend xxxx

PS the sun just came out - yay!


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hello all how's everyone doing?I'm sorry I haven't been on in a while I've been a bit all over the place this week.
Delighted to hear about the job Mrs P!
Kat I hope you're ok. You're going through such a rough time at the minute. You're so right to get the head space by switching your phone off but please know we are here for you whenever you need us. Stay away from google though, not to be trusted!

I find this thread so interesting. It's so relevant to where I am at the moment. Problem is I think my DH has different ideas of the future than me. I'm really finding it very difficult to be on my own at the minute. I was supposed to stay at my sister's tonight, but she texted this morning to say they're sick and there wouldn't be a bed for me. It totally threw me off as DH is away and I thought, oh god I'm on my own. Don't know why that's so scary. I've walked up a mountain today with a friend, and I loved it. But now back in the house all I can think about is I have no kids, I'll never have my own and it makes me so sad and so lonely. I find it hard to relate to anyone at the moment. Is it grief after the BFN or am I going mad? I'm worried I might be depressed. I'm going to my fertility counsellor on Monday and I know that will do me the world of good, but I'm thinking of trying CBT - has anyone tried it? I've been so obsessed with IF for 6 years, I suppose it's not going to go away over night, but sometimes I feel so isolated. I can't believe I've gone through all that and no baby. At the same time, I don't even know if a baby would solve my problems now - I feel I'm too old - which is ridiculous cus I'm 36 so it's all in my head - I also feel I'm too bitter now - I'm at the end of IVF and what now? And now I've just read over all this and I'm sure you'll all think I'm crazy! I used to be so carefree and independent but i feel that IVF has wrecked my confidence. Has anyone else felt like that?
As for adoption, I'm really interested in what you've been saying Maizie. How does your DH feel about it? I really think I would love it and I would do a good job, but IVF has taken so much out of me I don't know if I've the energy to pursue it. I know that DH would just be happy with things as they are - men, eh? They don't have those primal urges that completely wreck your head! Lucky ducks. also, I live in Northern Ireland so you're talking 3 years plus for the whole process. 
I am sorry to bother you all. I'm feeling this loss fairly intensely at the moment. Will it pass? The only thing that's keeping me going at the moment is that we're going to walk the Camino de Santiago at Easter. We did some of it last year and it really did me the world of good. 
Jamaicababy how are you? and Moonshadow?Nosilab I hope you get that much needed rest.
I'll go and leave you all in peace. Maybe a night on my own is just what I need to prove I can do it!Though I mostly just want to smoke my brains off ( haven't had one in years) and knock a bottle of wine back!
Hope you're having a lovely weekend xxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi all

Rose big hugs , you are crazy and we are here to help or rather listen. IVF does take away your confidence it ha  made me feel unworthy. It takes time to get over your loss don't beat yourself up. You sound  like you need a nice glass o  wine a good movie or book. That mountain climb sounds nice. I have zero energy!

Hi to everyone else just popping on to let Rose know she is not alone and as someone else said to me in a previos post "this too shall pass"


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Thank you Jamaicababy! I so appreciate that. In fact I'm going to head out to get a nice bottle of red and have a wee glass to relax myself. This too shall pass is just what I need to hear. 
Thanks for being there....
Hugs,
Little Rose


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## LellyLupin (Nov 12, 2011)

Wow girls afer reading the original post on this thread,  and all your comments I feel like someone has finally voiced EXACTLY how I feel almost to the letter.  I sometimes wonder if I am cracking up but reading your posts I see that my feelings are totally natural,  and there are tons of you out there feeling exactly the same.  I haven't got anything to add as its all been said I just wanted to say thanks as I found this thread when I was feeling very down and confused about howIi should be feeling


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Leslylupin welcome we have all been there, glad we could make you feel some what "normal"'-

Rose that's what we  are here for. Enjoy the vino.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Rose

You're definitely not going mad, this is just an incredibly confusing an emotional time - I totally get how you're feeling.  IVF/tx certainly does take it out of you and uses an incredible amount of emotional energy.  I'm sure the way you're feeling is the result of your last BFN, it's tough on us, it really is, and for those that have not experienced it will never understand - I think that's why it can leave us feeling so alone and isolated (and crazy!).  I've had CBT.  I had it before I started my IVF treatment as I was needle phobic and even just the thought of a needle any where near me made me cry, so the thought of IVF absolutely petrified me!!  As a result, the CBT enabled me to do all my injections myself - something to this day I still can't believe I did - I was soooo proud of myself.  So for me, yes it worked.  I won't say I'm fully 'recovered' from my worries about needles (but then who does like them?!) but I learned to cope with them, which was all I needed.  I'd definitely say give it a go, what have you got to lose    Yes like you, I often think about how I used to be before tx took over my life, how I used to be carefree and happy-go-lucky, back then my life wasn't dominated by anything baby related at all, oh how I wish I was back there now - I hate how IF has taken over and stolen so many years from me.  And to top it off I don't even know what I want now!  

The walk up the mountain sounds wonderful!  You lucky thing, I can't imagine being able to do that on a whim (sadly no mountains near us), sounds like it was just what you needed.  How was the night 'home alone'?  I hate being at home on my own without DH here, but then I'm a big wimp so have never liked it!  Hope you had a lovely relaxing eve with that bottle of vino  

Hello and welcome Lesleylupin, as JBT says, I'm glad we've helped in part to make you feel 'normal'.  It's a crazy old time eh!  Like you I found it so reassuring to know there are others out there feeling the same as I thought it was just me before I found this thread (thanks Janie for starting the original post   )

Hello and hugs to all


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## fluffy73 (Sep 2, 2012)

Hi all

just wanted to ask if anyone has thought about adoption

My hubby's daughter who visits once  a week just broke the news to me that her mum is expecting her 4th child, she broke this to me in B&Q and i have spent the whole day in tears. It seems like everyone is having babies.
After talking to my mum she suggested looking at adoption (although i am quite old).

At nearly 40 the questions that i am asking is am i too old, do i concentrate on having a nice life ie holidays, shopping etc.
Has anyone else thought about this, how do you know if you are making the correct choice?


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Fluffy welcome   You are as old as you feel my dear... I am 40 and I don't think I am too old either for adoption or my own biological child... I too have been asking the question regarding adoption, in fact I have only just put it to this same group... so I understand your anxiety unfortunately I have no answers sadly  

Only you can know if adoption is right for you... for me I am still not quite there yet but I am thinking... I know my husband is NOT there so it may not even be an option for me...

Good luck, hopefully one of the other ladies have an answer... If you read previous posts Maizy did have a positive response.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Good to see you back Nosilab  

Welcome Lesley - I know when I read Janie's initial post I felt a huge sense of relief. At last there was somewhere to talk honestly about all the fears and doubts. You may not have anything new to add but that doesn't mean you shouldn't share your thoughts if you feel it would be helpful. Sometimes it's just good to be able to put them somewhere, get them out of your head for a while.

Kat - I'm really sorry you're still in so much pain. Do you have any indication as to how long you'll have to wait for your op? I hope you were able to find some relief over the weekend, even if it involved that God of Rioja.

Rose - I definitely feel diminished by IF. I hate that I feel that I've lost something of myself in all this. Whilst in the midst of tx it was easy to blame it on all the meds, I didn't get many physical side effects (apart from one dose of OHSS) but they really messed with my emotions. It was PMT on steroids for me - insecurity, anger, tears - often all at the same time. But it was all going to be worth it right? Anyway, I've had CBT in the past and found it helpful, it felt constructive in that it went beyond counselling and helped me challenge some of my thought patterns. Although it wasn't IF related I can sometimes apply the techniques used. And yes, if all else fails - this too shall pass. 

I had a pretty full weekend - cinema, a thai massage, out for a friend's 40th. All good, but I kind of crashed yesterday morning. Most of the time I feel okay, life is ticking along and there are days I can count my blessings and see the positives. Yesterday was one of those days when I had a bit too much thinking time and I felt angry and just so, so sad. On the plus side DH was back to being the gentle, loving man I've been missing. Every cloud....

Take care ladies xx


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Ladies, 
well we just had our follow up and they are now thinking it could be something wrong with DH sperm! he's always had very low numbers intodays sample he got just 2...! 
so they talked about dna fragmentation and they are going to send off one of the frozen vials we have to london to be looked at. if it comes back at less then 95% fragmented then they will send me and my 3 remaining embies to oxford for testing. 

he started banding around about using donor sperm which really upset my hubby as we weren't expecting it! i think if we have to go down the donor route i would use a double donor or embryo adoption as the cons called it this morning. 
DH is devisiated as it's been blow after blow and it's always fallen on him, i've told him i don't care if our baby isn't bilogically mine because if i can carry it then it will always be a part of me, and i think he will resent it if we use my eggs. 

we have to wait quite a while for the test results to come back so it's a good job we aren't planning on doing it anytime soon! 

Jess xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Only got 5 mins but wanted to reply to Jess. Tell your DH about the nurture versus nature thing. Having a family is about sharing your life together and not sharing your genes. Its about supporting and growing together and that comes from nurture and not nature. 

I know so many donor parents and I can't tell you how many wry smiles they have had when somebody has told them how alike they are to their kids. Sperm and eggs are just a bundle of cells, a child is part of you and DH.

Let the news sink in a while and squeeze all the sadness out of him so he knows you love him for his soul and not for his DNA.

Katxxx

PS. My DH was very sad but then thought about it and realised that a genetic child of his is likely to inherit his [email protected] sperm too and he didn't want any child of ours to go through what we were so decided that donor sperm was best for everyone - just another perspective there that might help.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat beautifully said! Jess she is absolutely right it is about sharing a life with your family and not with the genes...

I hope everyone else is doing well...

AFM just hanging in there, as my niece says "just hanging like a monkey"

Have a blessed day all...


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

By the way what is CBT?


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks Ladies, 
I know what your saying it's just persuading DH!! 
xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jess - give your DH some time to mull it over first. Maybe for now all he needs is to be loved.

Only got 5 mins again but I´ll be back properly tomorrow. I wanted to add my adoption experience to the brief adoption chat. We decided to adopt after our 3rd BFN (in hindsight it was too soon but at the time it felt like the right thing). Adoption here is all from abroad so its kind of obvious most of the time since Scandinavians are mainly blued eyed and the adoptees come from China, Africa and South America mostly so stand out! In fact we saw a little adopted african girl having her first ski at the weekend with her blond parents  . It takes away some of the secrecy that Maisy touched on in her post and adoption is completely ´normal´ here because of the openness. There are a whole host of other issues you come up against though like racism and identity crises etc but being labelled ´the adopted kid´ at school is not such a big issue because its just part of society here. Anyway, we were not completely sure it was for us so just went to an open day and listened to a talk about it and saw lots of other parents-to-be and we both decided that it was what we wanted. We had our social services grillings as expected, and they dig deep I can assure you. It was pretty horrendous to be honest because I´m a very private person. TX is a physical invasion of your body but adoption is an invasion of your mind which is always scary! We were approved though which was just like getting a BFP. It was our happiest and most successful day of ttc ever  . The process here though is very very slow and after approval you still have to wait another 4 years for your little one to come home but I thought we could just get on with life in the meantime. At some point along the line though I foolishly decided I didn´t have final closure on tx so needed to try again. To be honest it might just have been the thought of waiting for 4 more years and thinking that I could have a baby growing inside me in that time and watching my neighbours bump grow with their miracle baby (they were adopting too). So we withdrew our application thinking we would try it again one day in the future. We tried tx another 6 goes so we could then add the experience of a mc to our list of lowlights. After stopping tx again I had my breakdown (not connected to IF - just bad timing thats all) and managed to get myself a small criminal record in the process  . Unfortunately holidaying in the loonybin and having the police knowing who you are doesn´t help your adoption application so there is no point in us applying again because we would be rejected  . I do wish we had done things in a different order, I wish we had waited longer between stopping tx and our adoption application so things might have been different, hell, I wish lots of things that I can´t change but I can´t regret our adoption application at all. It was oddly good to go to deep into your thoughts on being a family and a parent. It opened our minds a lot so it was a good experience for that if nothing else. My only advice though it to take it slowly don´t rush into it. Grieve for your biological child before you take this new journey but go to an open day and see how you feel about it in the meantime.

Kicked off the pc, talk tomorrow.
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies
Back from hols. I'll struggle to do personals but I've been reading whilst I've been away and thinking of you all. Sorry to hear that we've all been facing our daily battles. I like the "this too will pass" philosophy.

I don't have much to add about the conversation on adoption I'm afraid. I would have explored adoption before getting into the whole IVF nightmare but DH wasn't up for it. And to be honest, IVF has sucked my energy away so I couldn't face it now either. But I think it's a fantastic thing to do and have absolute admiration for people that do it. There are obviously so many positive and negative stories out there and so much to consider and I guess it's a very personal choice that needs looking into carefully. I would definitely agree with Kat though, there is a process to go through here in terms of grieving for your own biological child. I think only then can you make this kind of decision in a positive way. 

Jess - sorry you're having to make these kinds of decisions. I think you need to go really slowly with this. It takes time to come to terms with the different steps along this journey and I think men possibly need even more time. My reaction to what you're saying is that you shouldn't have to not use your own eggs because DH my resent the baby being genetically linked to you and not him. Give him time. I do get where you're coming from though. 

JBT - CBT is cognitive behavioural therapy. I don't know huge amounts about it but I'm sure the other ladies can help. Think it's to do with recognising how we react to things and learning to respond differently. I could be wrong though. Hope you're still hanging in there OK... like a monkey!

Rose - whereabouts do you live if you don't mind me asking. I'm in Scotland... if you can pop out for the day up a mountain then I'm thinking you might be too? (huge conclusion to jump to obviously!). 

I had a good holiday. We got back yesterday and I've been feeling pretty ill today so not had much chance to really start thinking about treatment again yet but it already feels like a huge weight. I currently feel very strongly that this is the last cycle for us. I am still all over the place emotionally. One minute I'm really panicking that we are about to make the biggest mistake of our lives and the next I'm feeling devastated all over again that we're in this situation and starting to think about how we might fund another cycle. I do feel however that I have worked through a lot of issues and I'm in a different place to where I was 6 months ago. For the first time in ages I'm starting to have a positive vision for a childfree life. One that I can sustain for more than a day or two. I've been reading a couple of books that have really helped. I'm cautious to mention as I think you have to be at a certain stage to find them helpful... they wouldn't have helped me 6 months ago. 

I'm currently reading a book called "Sweet Grapes - how to stop being infertile and start living again". I struggled with the first couple of chapters as it all seemed a bit too 'easy' and cliched but then it goes right back to the basics and brings in a number of different academic models of grief etc. The basic premise is that even though we have suffered IF, we can still 'choose' to be childfree... i.e. a positive state. But it talks about the different stages you need to go through before you can get there. I haven't finished it yet but it's working well for me. Like I said though, you really do have to be at a certain stage I think to work with it. I am starting to be able to genuinely believe that a childfree life can be really meaningful where before I was really struggling. Previously I just felt envy of people with children and all the experiences they will have that I probably won't. But now I'm really starting to believe that they will be envious of the things that I will have the freedom to do. I think we can take for granted the freedoms of not having children because that has always been our default state if you know what I mean? 

I've also just finished reading a book called 'Childfree and loving it'. I guess I needed to read something that was really focused on 'Childfree' as a positive state but not necessarily related to IVF. The book does mention IVF and there were extracts that made me actually cry with recognition of just how awful IVF can be and what it can do to people. But mainly it has nothing to do with IF. I personally found the book positive and funny but also quite insightful. I guess it made me remember my pre-IF self. I still get irritated by inconsiderate and overly-obsessed-with-their-kids parents but sometimes it feels that because I'm trying to have a baby, I have lost the right to comment. Some of the book was a bit 'basic' but I also think it helped me to remember that having kids isn't always the hazy vision that we can see when going through IF. It was good to read some refreshingly honest accounts of women who had children and loved them but admitted they wouldn't do it again. Was kind of in line with all of the surveys that say child-free couples are much happier than those with children (although I think this is finance related and that seems pretty crucial to me... ).

I feel very uncertain going into this cycle. I know a lot of ladies on here would give anything to be about to start treatment so I don't want to annoy people. I think I have spent so much time focusing on moving on that I'm pretty well there and have a much clearer vision for that than the vision of having a baby. I know all this will change as soon as treatment starts and I'm prepared to crash hard afterwards. And as Kat has said in the past, there is always going to be a final acceptance stage to get through. I'm not expecting the next few months to be pretty. I do feel a little relief at the idea that one way or another, we will finally know which way our life is going to shape up because it is exhausting constantly trying to straddle two futures. 

Take care ladies.
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Janie and welcome home. Injury free I hope? Just had to say that doing one last cycle can never be a mistake. Your fear if another bfn is telling you it might be but I can promise you it won't be. If its another bfn then you'll get through it as before. If its a bfp you'll have to settle with being envious of my childfree lifestyle ;-) Either way, its never a mistake to try one last time xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Welcome home Janie,

Very interesting reading your post and the info on the books you're reading - especially the second one. I'll make a note of those for future reference 

Jess, I haven't got any adoption experience to share really as I've never got off the start line with that one as my DH is completely set against it. The only thing I can add is from my counselling sessions - to cut a very long story short my counsellor has basically said that adoption wouldn't be a viable option for us because of my DHs reluctance (understatement!). Because as Kat says, the adoption process is gruelling to say the least and I was told that DH would not be able to keep up the pretence of wanting to adopt and that during the rigorous process he would eventually 'be found out'. So for us, because DH has said no, it's not even worth us considering it. Which in a weird way is good because I now know it's one thing I don't need to put energy in to.

JBT, yes as Janie says, CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. And it basically makes you challenge your thoughts and feelings towards whatever the problem is. So for me with needles I had various bits of 'homework' to do to challenge my behaviour and 're-train' my brain.



Nordickat said:


> Tell your DH about the nurture versus nature thing. Having a family is about sharing your life together and not sharing your genes. Its about supporting and growing together and that comes from nurture and not nature.
> 
> I know so many donor parents and I can't tell you how many wry smiles they have had when somebody has told them how alike they are to their kids. Sperm and eggs are just a bundle of cells, a child is part of you and DH.
> 
> Let the news sink in a while and squeeze all the sadness out of him so he knows you love him for his soul and not for his DNA.


Kat, love this post, so beautifully said


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Yes, injury-free thankfully. I obviously wasn't trying hard enough! Nosilab,interesting that your counsellor said that. Same would apply here then.

Kat, you always seem to know how to say the most thoughtful things. Xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Most people call it verbal diarrhoea, but thanks 

As time passes our thoughts change so it is possible that your DHs will change their minds about adoption but I do agree that it would be spotted if you weren´t completely committed to it. I also agree that its sort of a relief to know its not an option Nosilab. I still spend time beating myself up about the fact that it is entirely my fault we can´t adopt, but at the same time, having that door closed on our behalf almost makes it easier.

Janie - I think one of the most comfortable things about this thread is that everyone who is embarking on tx again seems it be doing it with trepidation rather than excitement so I doubt you´ll annoy anyone by talking about it here. I may be wrong obviously so I hope somebody says so if its upsetting. I was thinking about the final tx thing and its a real mixed emotion. There is the fear that this is it, one last go, and if this doesn´t work then thats it, game over. But then there is the other side too. Finally the end and time to get your life back, and your mind too. Imagine IF not taking over your whole brain ....... its great I can assure you  . It takes time and oddly I sort of missed tx when I stopped because I wasn´t sure what ´normal´people thought about all the time. I felt a bit empty for a while I think. And I wonder if some of the people who just have no empathy for how IF makes us feel, are actually envious of us. Maybe they don´t understand why we so desperately want a family because form the outside, being childfree looks fab  . And I did laugh at your conclusion that Rose must be in Scotland, I did the same when you were xcountry skiing - obviously you must be in Scandinavia 

JBT - I was expecting your profile pic to have been changed to a photo of one of your weekends baking conquests  . How yummy was the cheesecake?

MrsP - Did you book a weekend away somewhere new and exciting? If not, why not? I hope you had a lovely weekend at ´home´? Does it feel like home when you go back? Oooh, and a girlie catchup too, cool  . Maybe your DH was hurting for you rather than hurting for himself  He wants you to be happy more than anything remember so your sadness is always going to hurt him, as his does you. Its good that you can mention it though and not keep it all locked up hurting more 

Jen - I hope your sadness has passed a little. I guess some days will always be like that but as long as they are followed by good days then we´ll all cope I hope  I´m glad you´ve got your loving DH back and your weekend sounds perfect 

Nosilab - I hope your work isn´t as crazy this week as last? I love the thought of our CBT homework. I have an image your fruit and veg lined up and then your DHs butt at the end so you can practice 

Fluffy - if you are too old at nearly 40 then this entire thread is doomed  You can´t make a wrong decision by the way. Every decision you make is the right one and you´ll never get it wrong 

Jess  - you and DH ok today?

Rose - you bother away, thats what we are all here for, just to read your thoughts and woes 

Lesley - you don´t need to have anything different to add, sometimes just letting your brain empty on the page is a good thing ....... and some of us are really nosey so like to read about you  I don´t think there is a right or wrong way to feel. Feelings are just the way they are, some days they hurt and others they make you smile.

And me, well I´m losing the plot at a rapid speed, not helped by the fact their is a woman on heat somewhere and pupster is going bonkers ......... loudly. I seriously don´t know how much more pain I can take though - its like banging your funny bone but the pain doesn´t pass and it goes up and down my leg  I tried new painkillers over the weekend which knocked me out so I could sleep but unfortunately I slept too deeply and my pain didn´t wake me until it was bad enough to have me shouting out. Pups was really upset about it and decided the best way to help was to bundle me which really didn´t help. Now he thinks I´m on deaths door so even sits outside the bathroom door when I pee. Poor boy. I sleep for a max of an hour before I have to get up and walk about ......... anyone else stacking the dishwasher at 4am this morning? I´m sooooooo tired which I know doesn´t help. I decided to go to work yesterday and my app to buy my bus ticket didn´t work and I had no money so was on the phone crying to DH because I just didn´t know what to do   . Then last night he wanted to use the computer to work and I wanted to come on here and I nearly cried then too  . Honestly, what is wrong with me? And as for fysio  , I went to the rehab gym and there were 3 women in there all approaching 80, one amputated below the knees, and they were doing fab whereas I couldn´t even do my core muscle stretch. I feel very pathetic  . Oh and work is a bit tricky - my boss is dreadful - and I suspect if I don´t get better asap then someone else will take over my research area which is upsetting my a lot. I´ve spent 8 years building up my area and now I think somebody will just come in, take over and get the glory  . A tender comes out every year and I have won it and lead it successfully for 5 years out of the last 7 but this year they have decided without even talking to me that I´m not leading it and when I complained to my boss and said I´d like to be asked even if I have to turn it down, she got really angry. They need my name on it though as they´ll not get the project without me, they just don´t want me to really work on it but my boss really can´t see why that would make me feel a bit rubbish.

On the plus side though, we hatched 4 new chickens last summer and they have started laying big time, so eggs for breakfast, lunch and dinner! Oh and pupster has starting walking on his bad leg which is fab news and means he really is getting better. Right, thats me done and I´ll be louging about like a lazy monkey today, not really up to hanging yet 

Love to you all, Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Good morning all

Really quick note, my day ia pretty much just starting but i had to say Kat i just didn''t feel it to bake! If any of you remember that's shocking because i love to bake. Anyway maybe this week. Thanks for explanation re CBT you see all these resources we don't have here or if they do i wouldn't know where to find it.

Kat some bosses are just wussies, problem he/she is the one who wants to shine using your stars   i really hope that darn pain goes away. You always seem to give really good solid advice with a twist of whimsy, nice. 
I will post later on my little kindle an  it's hard type. 

It's funny how u assume where we live based on our activities! I think i'm the only non-european here
I have dreaming for about a year now to migrate to another country but I'm afraid no one really wants us in their country.  

Later ladies


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies I am back... I just really need to vent and put some things into perspective without judgement... And since I neither have the resources or inclination to do councelling here I am begging for some kind of ear to listen... I may deviate a bit but again I know you won't judge, laugh, shake heads, kiss teet but never judge...

You know in life we make choices, some good some bad some forced! IF has plays a nasty game on our emotions and self esteem. I have made some decisions that looking back on now I hate IF for putting me through... being a slave to tx, making sacrifices and watching others have babies after babies and always telling you some rubbish or the other about relaxing and "when you least expect it". I have alienated friends, i have stayed in a dead end job because it "offers flexibility" or "security" I have given up so much and now at 40 I have nothing to show for it. My confidence is shot, my job sucks, I live with an in-law I cannot stand being around. If I could only find happiness in one aspect of my life it would be easier for me to continue to go after my dream of having a child. Adoption is not in the cards I have to face facts on that, my husband has made it clear. I get so mad with him sometimes because I just don't feel like he wants this as much as I do. I have to put up with father every day, and then his son on holidays. While I wonder when I will see my family because travel is so expensive and trying to job hunt is so stressful. 

If I knew then what I know now I would do things differently, I guess everybody says that right. I don't know my own thoughts are jumbled.  I have so many things I wish I could fix. I see people I know and where they are in life and sometimes I am resentful, if that's even the right word. I know for sure if I have to find a way to get out of this rut or I will go into deep depression and I know that is not a place I want to be. I try to talk to DH but it's hard he just doesn't understand and I don't want to seem insensitive. I know he misses his son who lives with his mother in the states and we see him once a year but I just don't know if i can spend the summer with him this year without getting a new job and being occupied.

Anyway I have talked too much and I don't feel any better. Maybe I do need to get professional help, but i just simply can't afford it. I just need an opportunity, a break of some kind.

Thanks for listening


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

(((Hugs))) coming your way. Almost out of battery but wanted to tell you about email counselling services. You can pour your heart out and a professional with reply to you. It's not ideal but maybe better than having nobody (apart from us xxx). Whether Jamaica has anything I don't know but it doesn't matter. Use a US based one or a UK one. In the Uk the Samaritans have an email address you can use. I suspect there are others too. You can truly be you when you are taking to a stranger who you'll never meet. I'll look some stuff up for you tomorrow so it'll be waiting for you when you wake up I need to recharge first. I know you feel terrible and I know you think you'll never get out of this hole but you will. Really and truly you'll get through this. There is no choice but to get through it.
Take care and be kind to yourself,
Katxxx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

your gp can also refer for free counselling services others offer reduced rates for unwaged/benefits etc good luck


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Kat... we don't have such services here but I will do some research online... Just one of those days 'this too shall pass'... maybe I need to just find the money and go to someone... I am not usually the one to wear my feelings on my sleeve but sometimes things just get to you and you snap... I am on the verge of snapping. I need a break, I don't want to be a whiner though so let me stop... I just have to work through this like I normally do and not rely on anyone but myself.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

oh JBT - I'm not sure I have anything useful to say but I did just want to say hi and let you know you're not alone. I think you know we're all here to listen without judging, so vent away... I've had some of the same experiences, I hate my job. I hated it 5 years ago when we started on this journey and was only hanging in there for maternity leave...ha! Still hanging. Like a monkey! Hindsight is 20:20 as they say. I've also cut out friends because I couldn't cope. Your situation with family sounds really tough and I'm not surprised you feel like you just need a break. I think it's great that you have learned to work through this as best as you can yourself but sometimes the professionals can really help. The online counselling sounds like a great resource. You write really eloquently about your situation so perhaps this could really help? I find writing stuff down can really help me to line it all up in my head. I'm not sure where you're at...Is another round of treatment an option for you? Or are you really going through the process of trying to move on? As Kat says, you will get through this, we all will and we'll all be able to really laugh and be happy again with this a distant memory in time. 
Take good care of yourself
Janie xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat...hang in there with the rehab work... and stop competing with the octogenarians! You're on the road to recovery even if it doesn't feel like it. You need to be to support all those summer holiday plans. Just be kind to yourself in the process! And your work sounds rubbish. I used to work for a research institute and I hated it. Some of my friends still do and it's just so hideously competitive. My experience was of far too many clever people but so many without any half-decent people skills. The way you're being treated must be so frustrating so good for you for making your voice heard. The chicks sounds amazing! Now that's the sort of stuff that's worth getting excited about! Pups is obviously finding plenty to get excited about just now too! 

I am genuinely starting to feel ready to move on from all this. I had yet another major wobble today. To the point that I met DH at lunchtime from work in a bit of a panic, talking about seeing if I could get my money back for this treatment. I'm convinced I'm panicking because I've worked so ridiculously hard to be positive about all the things that I can do when I'm childfree that there almost feels a loss if it works. As crazy as that might sound. You said something on the Moving On thread about the difference between the cliche of being positive about what we have and what we can have. And this makes sense to me.  Anyway, I think I'm through my panic and just trying to work out how to keep my head over the next few weeks. I guess I just have to face that I can't really protect myself and I will likely crash just as hard as before. But this too will pass...

Take care everyone.
Janie xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Janie sometimes I just feel alone, like no one else has ever been through this which i know is NOT true... but where we are in terms of treatment is wait and see I do have 3 frozen embrios to be used but our 1 yes i said 1 fertility clinic is under going some construction and has been for close to 2 years so my doctor wants it completely done before we proceed. Also before we continue I have sort out the home situation as I cannot go through any of those procedures with the stresses I am currently feeling so I am caught between a rock and a hard place. I'm with you on the work thing for benefits... I started looking awhile back and then I kept thinking well I can't jobs knowing that I may get pregnant how do I do that what will the new employer think, I won't have benefits no insurance no paid maternity all those ridiculous things. Look at me now where am I same place I was 6 years ago where I began. Sigh! I am angry because I am an educated woman I work well I have good ethics and work habits so why can't even get a bloody interview. While I deal with people on a daily basis who have no sense and are being paid twice what I make! Just like those girls often even women who have babies after babies who don't want them or are not good mothers to them, while I struggle to have just 1. Yes I will get through this I always do. There are times that I just miss my family and not have an escape.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh my goodness. Just one clinic and closed for 2 years. That's crushing. I had to wait 7 months for my first (self-funded) treatment and that was possibly one of the hardest times I went through with all this. Any idea when it will open again? But it is great that you have 3 frosties JBT. You must feel so completely stuck in this hideous limboland. I was trying to explain to a friend why IVF is so hard and I think that for me, this limbo is the hardest thing. One day we are holding out hope for a future with a family and then we are trying to be positive about being childfree. And constantly having to try and jump between camps depending on what stage we're at with it all. The fact that you have 3 frosties means you won't even be able to begin the process of moving on but at the same time you aren't able to move forward with treatment. And other people who haven't been through this hellish journey just don't understand all the different knock-on impacts. I suspect if you had a baby then you might be able to find some of the other aspects of life a bit more manageable but it's the whole shebang of it all that leaves us feeling so utterly flattened by it. It's simply not fair and it's OK to feel angry about it. But perhaps counselling might help to try and separate out all the different frustrations? I don't know, but maybe know harm in trying? xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

No harm in trying. I guess. They haven't completely closed the unit as there are other procedures they can do as they are located on one of the hospitals. I am not sure if they have done any cycles there as yet but my doctor still isn't comfortable with the environment so that's why he hasn't been pushing for it. He wants the optimal environ. To be 100% honest I am not holding out much hope for my frosties to make the thaw, I haven't had much luck in that department before and I am not totally confident that they have a good success rate in the thawing process. But that is just my opinion. I think if they do not thaw I would be willing to do one more tx I've thought about it and I think that's what I would want once we can afford it and the way things are going we can't so I may be forced to move on as opposed to want to move on.


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## Goldilocks17 (Feb 19, 2013)

Hello Ladies,
I feel like I am reading my life story at the moment with what you are saying. I have been trying for the past 18mths ttc and wonder will it ever happen for me. I just found out last night another one of my closest friends is pregnant and she is got married recently. Amongst my friends I am the only one left who does not yet have a child. I worry that i am pushing my friends away also. In my excitement and naivety I told everyone in the beginning I was ttc and am now embarrassed as they ask me constantly about how I'm getting on..
I feel like my life is in a holding pattern waiting. My career is a joke and I am in a dead end job I should have left 5 years ago. It has been a huge struggle for my to think I may not have the creative career I had planned and now possibly not have the child I always thought I'd have. I feel I have reached a new level of sadness recently fearing that my future will not be what I dreamed of. Sorry I just ended to vent myself.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Goldilocks you are not alone my dear... vent all you want... I feel the exact same way, where is my life going. I know how hard it is to see all your friends, even those who have had conception issues, get pregnant and you not going anywhere! Venting feels good doesn't it?! 

I was just talking to my sister in the states and we were talking about the job search and how frustrating it is. I am still holding out all hope that I will get a new job, even if I have to sacrifice just one more thing. Have you been doing any job searches? what is the market like where you are? and what field are you?


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Blimey - lots of chatter last night  

JBT - I´ve sent you a pm but its not as much info as I was hoping to find. I know that when you are very low its very hard to find the motivation to even look for help which is why I´ve sent you the info. I realise you are more than capable of finding it yourself but I know in my dark times I struggle to eat breakfast let alone google stuff that is potentially upsetting. And of course you can continue to chat to us about stuff. We can all battle on and cope by ourselves when we have to, but at the same time its much much easier to share the load with others, especially others who understand. FF is all about support  . You´ll be proud of me by the way, banana, honey and walnut flapjacks baked yesterday mmmmmmmmm. Can I also make a suggestion about your clinic too? Feel free to ignore me, but how about you call them yourselves and see what their really situation is ........ for you own peace of mind. The clinic has been closed for as long as you and I have known each other and that seems a very long time and they are always ´nearly finished´. Speak to them and ask what ´nearly´means so you can at least make plans for your life. Ooh, and I saw you were on your Kindle. What are you reading? And finally, purely out of nosiness, did you family move from Jamaica to the US, or did you move from the US to Jamaica? I think you are in the same financial struggle that the EU are struggling with aren´t you? Luckily we´re not in the EU so at the moment we are doing OK.

Goldilocks -  

Janie - maybe you are comfortable with your childless future right now because you know deep down that you have one more chance coming up? I wonder myself whether I´m moving on OK because somewhere in the back of my mind I know I have an icebaby that one day I might be allowed to go back for. I find the thought of being a mum now quite scary because I´ve worked so hard towards never being a mum, and feel that if I did get pg it would almost ruin everything. If you did cancel your cycle then maybe the grief you have avoided will hit you? Maybe we all need to draw that final line under it before we can truly move on? And we all know its easier to live with the regret of trying rather than the regret of not trying. One thing you have this cycle that you didn´t previously, is this thread. I don´t mean the support here, I mean all the posts you have written. If it is a BFN then maybe reading back over how you felt will help with your grief  .

Its the sneaky backstabbing I hate at work and the stupid politics. Norwegian love brown nosing, its the only way to the top don´t you know  and its so not me. We are not talking hardcore intellectuals here, a PhD here is not quite like the UK thats for sure! I feel a bit sorry for mine and DHs students sometimes because we make them use their brains like we did which is a tad tougher than some of their peers. Its for their own benefit though  

Fysio again today and I´m going to whip some pensioners  in the gym today. I will stand on my left leg and I will lift my ankle higher than them. I plan on spending my entire morning practicing curling my toes so as not to show myself up again  .

Have a good day everyone, Katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Sorry that I have been AWOL for a while - work has been keeping me really busy, which is a blessing as it leaves me less time to think about everything else.  I do read often to stay up to date with you all and I'm sorry to hear that my dear veteran barbie friends Kat and JBT are having such a tough time at the moment.    

I am off for a week's skiing on Saturday, but I promise when I get back I will be a more dedicated poster.  I think lately I have just run out of energy for all things IF - I know that this is just further confirmation that this is the right thread for me, but somehow although I have been reading regularly I just haven't felt that I have anything useful to add.

So you may well ask what has brought me on here this morning, when I really should beavering away on my latest marketing plan....Well, I'm hoping that by typing furiously to you all for a few minutes it will drown out the sound of my colleague's 'bump measuring session' that is currently going on at the other end of the office.  It has become a recent weekly office ritual which strangely I am always too busy to participate in (no I DON'T want to hold the ****ing string around your enormous belly, but thank you for offering    ).  As if watching my 27-week pg colleague shovel coffee, chocolate, crisps and all other kinds of cr*p down her throat every day wasn't enough, I now have the pleasure of finding out just how much her 'nutritious' diet has 'fed baby' over the past week.  GGGGrrrrrrrr. Right, I think they're done now for another 7 days, and breathe.  

 waikiki


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Kat got it, sent u back one. Yes i know what u mean abt not wanting or having the energy to do anything. No I am born and bred Jamaican. My sister  married an american and my brother married an american. My mom got her papers years ago and migrated. I neither an american nor have papers to migrate. Ill post more when i get to work.  Yay on the yummy sounding flap jacks that's like pancakes right? Good luck on therapy.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies

Just wanted to add that I too feel like I've put my life on hold during the ttc/tx journey - always in the hope that I'd get my longed for dream and therefore I'd need to stick at my job for the maternity leave etc etc. How dreams and plans change eh 

Waikiki - OMG  how the heck do you even stay in the same room whilst the 'bump measuring' is going on?! I'd have to leave the room or even better - ask them to leave and do their measuring somewhere else! Jeez, some people.....

Hello and welcome Goldilocks  I also made the mistake of telling people in the early days about us starting our exciting journey - and cue all the questions of "are you pregnant yet?!". You vent away, it's what we're here for, to listen and support.

JBT, so sorry to hear you're struggling so much at the moment  I hope some of the info that Kat has sent to you will guide you in the right direction for some potential help/support (although you know you'll always get that here too  )

Well, not much else to add really - just counting down the days until the joint counselling session for myself and DH about trying to resolve our nightmare scenario of 'do we/don't we' use our frosties  I showed this article to my DH last night, and after he read it he said "well, the problem is I'm very happy with just going to 'Holland'"...I know, and there lies the problem! (have a read and the 'Holland' quote will make sense)...

http://www.catchingrainbowsfertility.co.uk/news/article/29/whats-this-fertility-journey-all-about

 xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry - me post :-( I just got my letter from the hospital and I'll be seen before 2nd june. How am i going to wait that long? I can hardly walk today but i have to wait 3 months to even be seen. I don't think i cried this much after my BFNs. I'm not sure i can cope :-(


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh Kat so sorry to hear about that long wait... How do they do that to people who are in pain!

As for my clinic I have been up there they are kind of on there way to be finishing and they have been doing procedures. It's just as a precaution my doctor wants the optimal environment and I can't blame him as I would hate to have another failure and wonder if it is because of the environs why it didn't work etc... We unfortunately are a third world country where infertility is seen as quiet a secret society! All our cycles are self funded with no help from either the government or insurance companies once you are able to afford it then you want to ensure that you have the best possible chance. I hope I am explaining it as best as possible in a nutshell, also all our cycles are quoted in US$ and so the cost fluctuates for us as we have to use the exchange rate at the time. Bearing in mind that our dollar is close to $100 J$:$1 US$, so it is very hard to save for that when a typical cycle costs over $7,000 US... It's worse when you think about the UK as our exchange rate for that is nearly 150 : 1 if not more... So it's really a major personal problem to move forward and I also have factor in my own state of affairs at home... Sorry this seems long winded but I had to try to explain that side of it... My issue is though we have no options, ONE clinic and a handful of fertility doctors who all work together, mine is the best so I am not too concerned about changing doctors. I am also very sad that we have no support, I was actually talking to a friend about that who is also in the same position. 

Waikiki you are a brave soul, I think I would have left the room! Enjoy your skiing weekend... Lord knows I need a vacation!

Nosilab thanks for the link I will be reading it...

Janie, Jess, Goldilocks big   to you all... 

At work now so will link back later...


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh Kat    that just completely sucks. Is there no way of appealing to get an earlier date? I'm not surprised you're so upset... I don't really know what to say, nobody deserves this kind of run of luck.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - hello! I tried your link, but it didn't work. I can get to the main site but don't know where to go after that. Curious about Holland! Whatever it is, I expect my DH is happy going there too!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Tried the link as well and it doesn't work... even went to the website and tried to find it but no luck.. I KNOW my husband would be happy going to Holland!


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry to hear about the wait time for your referral Kat - I'm sure you've already explored all the possible options, and not knowing anything about the medical system in Norway I am in no position to advise you on what to do.  However, it seems ridiculous that they can make you wait for 3 months when you are in such pain.  Is there another GP that you can try and plead your case to?

Sending you big    hun.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh no Kat!  That just awful!  They seriously can't expect you to wait that long?!  I don't know what to say or advise other than try and discuss again with your doc and see if he/she can speed it up a bit for you?  Sending you big big hugs   

Ladies!  I'm gutted!  The link no longer works!  I just tried it and it's gone    The annoying thing is I nearly printed it off yesterday but then didn't for some reason.  I'm hoping it's a glitch and that the article will be back up soon.

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - I think one of the most important things in this process is to have ultimate faith in your Drs and clinic etc and not to have any ´what ifs´ at the end, and it sounds like your Dr is top notch on that front  Flapjack is like and oat/muesli bar.
Waikiki - have a fab time and come back safe and at least you can avoid next weeks belly measuring  . At fysio yesterday the postnatal pilates was just finishing which is quite traumatic in itself and but made worse by the first lady down asking if I could hold her baby while she went to the loo  ´Er no! Stick it in its flippin buggy´. These things are sent to try us ........ far too frequently sadly. Anyway, where are you going skiing?
Nosilab - when is your appt? 
Janie  

No more from me - a bit fragile today. I have a crisis contact list which is quite extensive; Shrink cancelled my appt today as sick, DH has taken his dept on some seminar and back late tonight, Fysio-for-loons doesn´t work thursdays, GP doesn´t work thursdays, friend1 started a new job on Monday, friend2 on holiday in spain, friend3 I´m reluctant to contact yet again since its all she seems to deal with right now. Thanks for all your hugs though  

Over and out, 
Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Sorry I've missed all the chat this week, I've been thinking of you all.

Hang in there Kat, I can't begin to imagine how upsetting and frustrating this all must be for you, you're having to deal with so much and it just isn't fair. If you need to contact your friend, do it. I understand it being difficult, that you feel like you're leaning on her a lot at the minute but it sounds like you could really use some support right now. Imagine if it were the other way round - would you hesitate to be there for her? (I used to hate it when my psychologist used that line on me!). Are you able to make an appt to see someone tomorrow at all? Maybe having that as a back-up might help?

Hugs to everyone


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Kat - we're off to Les Arcs (France) with some friends, so it should be fun.  Wish we could offer you more than just hugs today hun.  Hang in there.


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Sorry to crash the thread but Kat, just wanted to give you a hug.   Really hope you can get that operation done earlier than that. 

Rowanxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Waikiki Frace lovely! I really have to live vicariously through you ladies going to all these lovely countries and enjoying such adventures!!! I am jealous... All i have to go to is a beach   oh and mountains  

Kat: those sound even yummier my hubby loves oats/museli bars, so do I... yes I have all faith in my doc he does not give false hope and tells me as it is but gently... It's just frustrating... I think you should call your friend like Moonshadow said put the shoe on your foot and if you had a friend in need you want them to come to you! I really hope you get some lyming time with somebody.

Check in again later


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## Carrie9152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi all,

Sorry been absent for a while but having a good read of your posts when I can. Kat your earlier post about the 'bump' measuring made me laugh out loud in a perverse way. I really feel for you - having to watch that every week must be horrendous although on the bright side with all that junk food most of the bump won't be baby!!

For me, at the moment I have head down trying to finish my degree [at 35 must be mad!] and trying to ignore the baby talk going on in my head. One day I am convinced that a life without a child will be fine....no problems...can cope.... then I see and advert or another pregnant person or listen to a conversation that normal includes...' when you have kids...' and I swing right back the other way.

Current plan....finish degree....move house [away from the neighbours with the 7...oh yes 7.. kids] breathe deeply then decide what to do. It has been 3 months since my last round of IVF and I still don't feel right. Has anyone else experienced symtoms after the IVF has finished?? It feels like my insides are still going what the hell

Love to you all....I don't get chance to look on here very often but I am thinking of you all and it is so wonderful to know that I am not on my own in feeling like this.

Carrie


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hello all!
O it's so good to read this thread - thanks a million to you all for responding to my mini I'm all alone crisis! Janie I'm in the north of Ireland, so lots of mountains nearby - but you all shouldn't be that impressed cus I drove most of the way up. Was out for two hours though it was very therapeutic.
There are lots of stories on here - I mean really, bump measuring? Get a life! 
Carrie - I'm not right nearly three months after BFN - still think I have drugs in my system. And my head! OMG my head! Will it every be right?
Kat - please please please do contact your friend. You have no idea how articulate, how eloquent, how compassionate you sound in your posts. You are going through such a tough time and you are only human. So reach out and grab that help wherever you can find it. Do try to get out of your head - you know how much better it feels just with a bit of conversation. Could you contact your friend and talk about lots of other things to give yourself some headspace? My mum has had bipolar for many years, therefore I am somewhat experienced in the field. Talking is the best therapy going. 
I did lots of talking with my counsellor the other day. She is just fantastic, and is infertile herself so has the most wonderful empathy. She reckons I'm going through the 'anger' phase of the grief process - quite early on in it. Someone mentioned here that with IVF you delay the grief process unconsciously and I totally agree. I'm grieving now big time. When I'm up I think - hey I could do this all again - but when I'm down there isn't a chance on earth I could ever ever do it again. Enough is enough. But like everyone says - this too shall pass. Oh I hope it does! I really want my mojo back. The old me. She's in there somewhere right?
JBT you are so welcome to rant and rave all you want here. IF is such a hard thing to go through. It's quite unbelievable how alike we all are in our feelings and emotions. As Carrie says it is wonderful to know that we're not on our own feeling like this.
On a lighter note we sold our house and bought another one this week, paperwork pending. I see it as a new project. a new start maybe. Just moving to the other end of town, but in a nicer area, closer to shops, pubs, a bit of life. I hope it all works out.


Take care everyone,
Little Rose


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Rose congrats on the house purchase! Having a glass of vino right now.. Kat I must confess I have not had the nerve to do the online councellor not sure what i am afraid of... anyway will keep you abreast of the situation as it arises  

I think I am shifting gears on the job search, gonna try a service I tried before and had a really bad experience with but that was years ago so maybe they have changes, let's hope. 

Tomorrow is another day... nite nite


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

btw Kat am making a carrot cake with cream cheese icing for a friend's birthday on Saturday may throw in a little something for the house too!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Just wanted to say that the link I was telling you about ('Italy vs Holland') is back up and running - thought you might like to have a read now  Although I must add (as we all know) we don't all get the 'holiday to Italy'.....

http://www.catchingrainbowsfertility.co.uk/2013/03/whats-this-fertility-journey-all-about/

Hi Kat - my appt is on the 20th Feb, so just over a week to go....eeek! I hope you've now contacted friend3?! As the others have said, if the shoe was on the other foot you'd want her to contact you. I'm sure you wouldn't want to think of her sat there thinking she wasn't able to contact you in her hour of need?? Please think about it 

Hi Moonshadow - lovely to hear from you 

Enjoy France Waikiki, sounds fab! 

Carrie, you'll be glad to get away from the 7 kids! 

LittleRose, I know what you mean about wanting your mojo back, I feel like that too. I REALLY want mine back. Brilliant news about the new house! Sounds like the perfect new project to throw yourself into 

JBT, good luck with the change in job search strategy. I have everything crossed for you 

BIG hello to anyone I've missed, I'm thinking of you all


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

hello ladies

i haven't been on hear for a little while but i have been popping in and reading bits and pieces to keep me abreast of things.  So just thought i'd check in and say hi.  Nothing happening with me DH and I are still at loggerheads me wanting to do 1 more cycle and him not sure.  So we are not getting on its a vicious circle as he won't consider it whilst  i'm not getting on with him and i'm not getting on with him cos he won't consider it. 
thats about it really. 

laters   to all
xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Afternoon ladies,
Well.... things have taken an unexpected turn here. I had a mini-meltdown yesterday. Was due to have first scan today, start injecting tomorrow and flying to Greece next Sunday. Flights and accommodation were all booked. But I just couldn't go through with it.  I'm still trying to process it all but current status is that we've postponed at best and maybe I've finally come to terms with the fact that I'm wanting to move on from all this altogether. I'm actually really ill at the moment which means I'm slightly less sure of my emotions than I might otherwise be but in the end I just felt the emotions were too strong to ignore. I'm waiting for a wave of regret to hit, am sure it's in the post. I can't quite understand how I can go from the dark days following my last BFN to feeling like this but for now I just feel a sense of relief. When I start to feel a bit better (and I recover from the shock!) I'll maybe come back on and try and 'explain myself'. 

I hope everyone is well. Kat, I've been thinking about you a lot. I hope you're doing OK.

Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie

I think the first thing to say is that you don't need to 'explain yourself'.  When you're ready come back and chat to us, you know we're all here for you.  Sometimes in life we really do have to go with our gut feelings, and what ever you decide the long term outcome is, it sounds like you've done the right thing at this moment in time, trust your instinct - and maybe 'regret' isn't in the post after all, only relief.  And as Kat has said many times, there is no right or wrong answer.  Only whatever feels right to you.  Take things easy and hope you're feeling better very soon   xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree with you say Nosilab, follow your gut! There is no right or wrong, only you can know how you feel mentally & physically. I hope you are having a better day today. We are always here for you. Lots of hugs!


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Lots of love to you Janie. I've been round & round in circles on this one too. All I can second is that I feel relief at coming to a decision thats right for myself. I have to say that all you ladies have been an integral part of this, it's been lovely to speak to people who just 'get it' when you are going thru similar emotions.
Hope you are feeling more comfortable & confident in your decisions by the day. I believe I am at a point where regret doesn't come into it any more, just an understanding that all the treatment led me to a point where I can say I've tried that route but it didn't work. I feel a renewed vigour to enjoy life from this point on xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Stopping tx is such a strong and brave choice. Tx is almost like the 'safe' option don't you think? We understand the emotions that go with it so can deal with it, hard as it is. I'm sure we would all be mothers one day if we just kept on trying for as long as it took, but perhaps it gets to a point where we just don't want to sacrifice anymore of ourselves and our relationships in getting there. Having a baby is not the most important thing in the world, being content with who we are is. I hope you are not over analyzing your feelings Janie and are just able to let them be so you can try and see a way forward. Hang in there, I have no doubt your way forward will become clear with time. 

Thinking of you lots and 'explaining yourself' is only necessary if it helps get your own head in order.

Lots of love,
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie - been thinking of you, sending hugs  

Set, sorry - I forgot to reply to you on Saturday.  I'm so so sorry to hear things are still strained between you and DH, it's SUCH a difficult and emotional time    I really don't know what to suggest, other than the usual - have you and DH considered counselling?  I'm sure you've heard that a million times.  I guess it's hard for me to know what to suggest and I'm stuck in limbo too, and not knowing what the right answer for myself it    Although DH and I aren't at loggerheads.  I feel so sad for you Set, as if it's not hard enough having to deal with IF anyway and make big decisions - but then also having to deal with the big decision of 'do we/do we' and being at loggerheads with DH is just so so hard.  Sending big hugs to you   and hope you're able to come to a resolution soon xx


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## Carrie9152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Janie,

I am so sorry to hear that you are not well.  It must have been so hard for you to make the decision not to go and all I can say is that I am sure that you have made the right decision.  You need to be in right place to put yourself through that again and it seems that you are just not there.  Get yourself better and you will know when will be the right time to do it again....you have not given up you have just given yourself time to heal and make the decision that is best for you.

Thinking of you  

Carrie


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

And the blows keep on coming!! Just spoken to the embryologyst and apparently there needs to be a concentration of 1 million sperm to be able to do the DNA fragmentation test.... why??!!! 

so DH's samples are no good and we certainly won't get that many fresh! 

don't know why this keeps happening and so many blows all the time!!! 

sorry for the whingy me post! 
how are u all? 
jess xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Jess, that's really cr*p news    I wonder why they heck they didn't tell you that key piece of info in the first place?!  I don't know what to say to try and help, other than is there any way you can get a 2nd opinion?  Maybe a different clinic will do the DNA fragmentation with less than 1 million sperm?

I know it doesn't make any thing better, or any easier but sending some hugs your way   xx


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

thanks Nosilab, 
i'm not sure to be honest, they said it had to be sent to london i'm not sure what other clinics do it? i'll ahve to do a google search! xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Jess

No, I'm not sure either, sounds like a pretty specialist procedure but you never know - it's worth Googling just to find out!    Good luck xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

TDL (The Doctor's Lab) in London do Sperm DNA frag - but I don't know what the parameters are to do the test.  You could give them a ring?


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Set - sorry you and DH are still struggling to sort this out. It's so hard when you are on the same side let alone opposite sides. (((Hugs))) I hope you can find a way forwards soon.

Janie - are you feeling any better? 

Jess - big hugs to you too. I can't believe young clinic gave you false hopes. I hope there is an alternative for you emerging soon.

JBT - carrot cake gets my vote everytime.

Nosilab - hope you are ok? You've been around lots but not told us anything about you. Is that a good or bad sign? Or are you just waiting for the 20th?

Hi everyone else. I hope you are all plodding along ok and got through the heartache that comes with Mother's Day. I also hope you are not stuck in snow on some motorway somewhere. Spring blue skies here ;-)

I have a dr (not my own as he has gone AWOL) tomorrow and I'm desperately hoping to come awAy with painkillers that work. Feeling better today after a few hours of uncontrollable hysteria last night and after convincing myself I'll get better drugs tomorrow, I'm quite chirpy. I've discovered there are benefits to crutches and I'm milking the fuss where possible ;-)

Love katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Ladies

Just wanted to come on and say thanks for the messages of support. Means a lot. 

Not really sure where I'm at just now. I'm still pretty poorly and off work so that's not helping. Not quite flu, but not far off (manflu perhaps, we all know how serious that is!)
I was doing OK yesterday but my resolve seems to have disappeared today. I stayed in bed this morning and read an IF 'story' from cover to cover. Cried a lot with recognition.  Now I just feel a bit empty. I've done a tonne of reading actually. I've trawled the internet for positive stories .. not for positive stories of IVF success but of people choosing to walk away and forge a happy childfree life. As often as not though it leaves me with doubt as most stories seem to be about ladies who have tried much harder than I have before deciding to move on. The most comfort I have found was in the book Sweet Grapes that I told you about. I felt almost euphoric reading it and recognising myself in some of the descriptions. In particular it talks about women like me who were fairly ambivalent about having children until the IF journey began and then got sucked into beating the odds and losing sight of the actual objective.
I don't really know how I feel right now. Yesterday I started testing the water and telling people that we've decided no more and that we've decided to get on with living again. And I felt really good about it. I'm clear that the 'decision' hasn't come from fear of failure and the likely fallout after another BFN. As Kat so rightly said, that's an experience I know and understand and can prepare myself for to some degree... it feels like the safe option. Partly I think I've just started to feel old which I know is ridiculous and loads of women go on to be fantastic parents at much older than I am. It doesn't really make any sense. Although this feels like the longest journey ever, we didn't actually have our first IVF until October 2011 which isn't even 18 months ago (although we were in the system for somewhat longer) and I didn't think anything of my age then so why am I feeling it so much now? I think the books I've been reading have a lot to answer for. There is such a strong message out there about the wonder of having children and I have tried to balance it up recently with a more realistic stance and well... I think I just started to see a more rounded picture. The bottom line is that, for now, I have no inclination to start injecting myself with hormones and I have never felt this way before any other cycle. I seem to be doing a slightly better job of separating out my emotions. I think part of the problem is that I just can't picture me and DH with a baby / toddler / child / teenager any more. I used to have a picture of this but at the moment it just doesn't seem to make any sense. I think a lot of the way I'm feeling is coming from finally accepting that this isn't what DH wants and not having the energy to want it enough for both of us any more. I've spent so much time 'working on' the vision of my alternate childfree future that it's the only one that seems to make sense any more. And yet the fear of regret is what is stopping me from moving on with my head high (and £800 of meds sitting in a box in the corner of the room). People keep telling me just to be sure that whatever decision I make will leave me without regret but how on earth can you possibly know?  The book has a good section on this exact thing although I'll need to read it again to remember what it said.  I just couldn't shake the feeling that the ONLY reason I was doing another round was so that I wouldn't have to deal with this sense of regret. But then of course I would suddenly remember that it could actually work... and right now I don't feel the way about that I should. Maybe it's been brought about my months of DH saying we'd 'deal with it' if it happened... it's not exactly the reaction I'd be hoping for.

One thing that has upset me a bit is how quickly a couple of the people I told about moving on started talking about other things. I know it's natural but I just wanted to scream 'no, don't you realise I'm grieving here and I don't want to talk about what's on TV tonight'. I haven't just decided to have take-away instead of cooking tonight, I've decided I'm not going to have children and everything else that means I also won't have. I think I'm OK with it but somehow I need people to recognise just how hard it has been to get to this point and how hard I'm working right now to be positive.

Not sure what happens next. I do know that I've had to remove myself from other threads I followed. I don't seem to be able to cope with the ins and outs of other people's treatments just now. It's hard looking at signatures of ladies for whom it's worked on the 4th go and wondering whether if I just finished what I'd started my future might turn out very differently. But that's not necessarily the right path for me any more. And in other ways it feels really good to be taking back a bit of control. There are lots of things to get excited about. I've been trying to encourage DH to start planning with me but I think he's cautious because I might change my mind. I haven't 100% ruled that out but at the same time I don't see how I could summon the energy for it. For once I'm just trying to cut myself some slack, get well and be a little patient and not swing wildly from one ending to the next.

Sorry that's just an enormous me post. I hope everyone is having an OK day / week. 

Kat, I really hope you get some good painkillers tomorrow and get a bit of relief from it all. Try not to do too much damage with those crutches! 

MrsP - thanks for your post, that was exactly the kind of positivity I was looking to hear so thank you for stepping in with that at exactly the right time. I think I'm just struggling to commit fully to the decision when I know just how easily I could change my mind.

Nosilab - not long now until your counselling session, I hope that helps. I read the article about Holland and Italy - a great metaphor and quite a good way of trying to get other people to understand how IF can feel. 

Jen, JBT and everyone else, I hope you're doing well.

Take care, thanks for indulging my stream of semi-consciousness.
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - reading your post was like reading my own mind written down. Firstly, I think you can turn off signatures which might benefit you for a while. You can't compare your journey with anyone elses. Length if signature is not proportional to how hard somebody has tried. You need to try hard enough for you, not hard enough for somebody else. I don't think trying lots of times us a sign of anything other than the odd loose screw! Maybe some of us take longer to realise we have lost sight if the goal. Looking back I can say my last 3 cycles were not trying to make a baby, they were trying to beat IF. That's not necessarily the wrong reason to be doing it as I would clearly have loved my child with all my heart. But I think I realised it wasn't enough to want to put myself through it all again. I don't think I feared another BFN as much as i suddenly started fearing another mc. My DH also became indifferent and before l lost the plot and wee were going to do FET for closure he was also saying we'd cross the BFP bridge if it happened. He had moved on already and I too couldn't want it enough for both of us. He had lost hope and wanted his life back that's all, and as i saw him moving on with new hopes and dreams, the picture of him as a dad faded away. Now the thought even worries me a little :-( As for the regret thing, I guess the only way to find out us to suck it and see. I might be wrong but I don't think we'll just tick along fine for 5 years and then suddenly regret it. Don't you think we are more likely to regret it in 6 months or maybe a year, when decisions can be easily undone? I don't know! I hope I'm right though. I'm sure though that there will be moments forever when I'll wish I had kids. I'm expecting friends grandchildren arriving to be a tricky one, but I'm hoping not to regret by then. I don't think having manful is the best time to be thinking too hard about stuff though. Give your body time to heal before you focus too much on your heart and mind.

Maybe to move on properly we have to stop seeing motherhood as something that adds value to our lives and makes us more worthy. Maybe it's just me that feels that anyway actually?

Oh and my crutches, I didn't mention they come with deadly spikes for the ice. I challenge anyone to upset me armed with them ;-)

JBT - had a change of heart about the carrot cake getting the top vote. I've just me upside down sticky rhubarb and ginger cake and it is fanflippingtastic!


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## Carrie9152 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi all,

Just reading Janie's and Kat's posts makes me realise how still alone we all feel. Like Janie I was always abit ambivalent about having children until I realised that I couldn't and then it became more about 'don't tell me I can't'. In all the stories that you read about IVF it is always about people that beat the odds....that got a BFP eventually and never about the people that just decided that enough was enough so you go through this process thinking that it is never the right time to stop and that it will always happen eventually. Especially as you say when you read the signatures that are on here and there is always that comparision that says your have not tried hard enough yet. I guess what I am trying to say is that we feel this way because we feel that we are doimg something wrong by 'giving up' but what we are actually doing [and I mean 'we' in a general sense not all of us because we are each on our own journey] is trying to grieve and create a life for ourselves with or without. There needs to be a group for those who can't so that it does not feel such an alien thing to do when you decide enough is enough..

Sorry rambling a bit now but love to you all

Carrie


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

It's years since I read any kind of IF book because I was so sick of the happy endings. I'm not adverse to happy endings and I'm sure we will all have our own, it's just they won't all be the same. Some of us on here will find happiness as mums, and the rest of us will be happy and childfree. I hate the whole 'never give up, look at my remarkable signature, miracles happen' you know the rubbish I mean. As if the only possible future is one involving children. I'm not 'giving up', none of us are quitters, if we stop its because we just get to a point where we see another life out there for us. That's the thing that has stopped me posting on lots of threads, being told not to give up. Sadly it's people on FF that gave often made me feel second class for stopping tx.  And jeez, if one more person had suggested i should go to athens and get a bfp then i seriously would have lost it. Oops, I obviously needed to get that little rant off my chest ;-)


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Nordickat said:


> And jeez, if one more person had suggested i should go to athens and get a bfp then i seriously would have lost it. Oops, I obviously needed to get that little rant off my chest ;-)


Allelujia, it's not just me who sometimes has violent thoughts about the Serum brigade. Phew.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

lol maisy, nope you are not alone on that front ;-)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

I'm hearing you Sista's! Sometimes I wonder if I'm just contrary in the way that I react when I hear about Serum. Good to know I'm not alone (and if anyone is reading and wondering, I was off to Greece but not Athens, and well apparently not anywhere any more!) Thankfully the books I've been reading haven't had the traditional happy ending. I guess that hasn't happened by accident as I'm more interested right now with hearing  how people have got through the process of moving on and looking to hear things like they are now glad they are where they are. I've liked the authors of both the books I have read this week. They seem like women I could relate to and that I would like in real-life so that help. 

I think you're right Kat, maybe we would get there in the end if we kept on trying. But at what cost? And maybe that's the difference, for some ladies, perhaps the alternative is so abhorrent that it's unthinkable. And so the 'you'll get there in the end' approach is soothing. But to me it evokes a whole different set of emotions. And I absolutely hear what you're saying about motherhood making you more worthy. I don't believe it, truly I don't, but it's such a huge pressure that is placed on us by society and it's an ever-present message. The books I've been reading describe it well and I've been trying to persuade DH  to read them to help him to understand how much of a failure this makes me feel. It's different for men I'm sure of that. But I'm trying to stop turning the 'wonder' of motherhood into something even bigger than it already is in my head. 

Carrie, you're absolutely right, I do feel alone and thank god for the ladies on this thread else otherwise I would be doubting myself even more. I'm so grateful that nobody has tried to boost me by telling me to not give up because I don't feel that way... just that I'm trying to step back and realise that there is a whole world of experiences out there that don't revolve around pregnancy and children and that maybe my reasons for carrying on are now less valid than my reasons to stop.

We've got a DVD to watch tonight. A good ol' weepie about dogs is just the kind of therapy I need to take my mind off this for a bit! Catch you all later.

Janie xx


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Janie,
reading your post is like reading my own mind - just as Kat says. I can't believe how similar our outlooks are about the future. they way you're feeling is so unbelieveably familiar to me. And i think the same about Serum too! I am working hard to envisage a childfree future and I'm getting there. But I agree that we're pressured by society to have children, we're conditioned to believe we should have children, it's a cultural thing. I have that book Sweet Grapes and it is so spot on. The part about regrets is particularly relevant because I think that's one of the biggest reasons people keep going through IVF.
Sure the dream of having your newborn in your arms and looking into your husbands eye is one I would love and still wish for, but I am beginning to see another life and at the end of the day I have to be realistic. Bar a miracle it's just not going to happen. Somehow coming to the end of our IVF journey as made it easier to see that because there's no more uncertainty about the future. Well actually there is, but good uncertainty, as in spontaneity, and that's exciting too.
There are so many ways to look at it. I often wonder would we do donor. I mean of course we would love the child 100% but we're talking about a human being here. How would he/she feel about the world?
It's early days. I've been grieving 3 months and I need to give it another 3 I think before my head is totally clear.
But Janie, what you said about age, like you I never thought anything about my age before TX so why do i consider it so much now? I'm only 36. But that is older in terms of having children and maybe that's why.
Sorry for the me post ladies. I just wanted to let Janie know she is totally and utterl spot on.
Hello to all,


LittleRose


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Kat, I'm ok thank you. I guess there just hasn't really been anything to tell, nothing much is happening with me. Yep, just waiting for our counselling session next Wednesday. Really not sure what to think or expect - I keep swaying from 'lets bring it to an end' to 'just one more try'. Feel very confused and unsure about it all  Glad you found some good uses for those crutches! These situations have to be milked for all we can get!  Hope you get some better painkillers tomorrow.



janie73 said:


> I think a lot of the way I'm feeling is coming from finally accepting that this isn't what DH wants and not having the energy to want it enough for both of us any more.
> 
> Maybe it's been brought about my months of DH saying we'd 'deal with it' if it happened... it's not exactly the reaction I'd be hoping for.


Janie, I really empathise with your post, you've said so much that also rings true with me. But in particular with the 2 quotes above, you took the words out of my mouth. That's exactly how I feel - and that's exactly the point that friends/family just don't understand when they say "don't give up". They don't understand the struggle of not only coping with IF but also the added stress and struggle of dealing with DH.

Hi also to Carrie, Maizy, Set, Jen, JBT, MrsP, Jess, Rose and anyone else I've missed.

Hugs to all


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all, I've been lurking and reading and nodding an awful lot. Although we're not at the end of our journey yet so much of what you're all writing is ringing true. I know I will come back and reread so many of these posts over and over. My heart isn't really in it any more and with that comes a bucket load of guilt and heartache, but reading your posts reminds me that I don't need to justify my decisions to others, that if we chose to stop it will be okay (well, apart from the grief and the doubts and the what ifs, take those out of the equation and it'll be just fine and dandy!  )

Sorry this is brief, there's so much more I want to say but having typed it and deleted it several times over I think perhaps that's for another day.

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Such lovely long posts. I had to go and make a cuppa before catching up!

Jen - the one thing none of us should ever feel is guilt. This journey us so all consuming and personal that it concerns nobody else but you and your family of 2. 

Nosilab - oh 'don't give up' gets me everytime. Actually since its my life, I'll 'give up' when I damn well want and not because I'm weak but because I'm super strong! I hope talking it all through on neutral ground helps you and DH to get the process moving again, whatever that process turns out to be.

Rose - that wasn't a me post, it was a sharing all post. I will raise a glass tonight though to your uncertain spontaneity, I like that  Destiny doesn't do home visits, we have to go out and find ours. I think drawing the line under tx does make it easier to see a good future and hey, the line can always be scrubbed out if its too soon.

Janie - I have nothing against serum, I have just had it rammed down my throat at the most inappropriate times. The best was when I was having a big stress about whether to destroy my frostie or not so i could get final closure. The advice I got was to forget my frostie and go to serum!!! WTF!! I think you are right about turning motherhood into this amazing thing that's more amazing in our heads than in reality. I wonder if that comes from losing sight if the goal and nolonger actually thinking about being a
Mum, but thinking about winning the war against IF.

Saw a lovely dr today as my gp is away. After proving I had no reflexes she was straight on the phone to the surgeon. Unfortunately he was less helpful and wants me to try other meds first. It's almost comical really. He wants me to take slow release tramadol morning and night which is far enough. On top though I have to take 4g paracetamol a day which I can live with too. But the best bit is he wants me to take normal tramadol 4 times a day. If you don't know what it is I can tell you there is a very good reason for not being allowed to drive when you take it. He seemed to think it was ok for me to just lie on the sofa unable to even string a sentence together for the next 3 months. Unflippingbelievable :-( There is no change so far and I can't even lie or sit today ....... or even walk for that matter. About to make a big badge that says 'armed and grumpy' for my stroll out on my crutches later lol. Sorry to go on about it. It's taken over my life somewhat but no more talk about it from now ;-)

Love to all,
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - argh! I can't believe you're having to battle so hard to  get what you need.... which is clearly NOT being overdosed with tramadol until the surgeon deems you have suffered enough. And don't feel you can't talk about it. In my mind it helps me to keep perspective (hmmm I hope it doesn't seem callous of me to be 'taking' something from your obvious pain and suffering) that people have other problems in life beyond IF. So if we can help at all (and honestly I keep wracking my brains as to how we could help) or if it just helps to let it out then hey, we're all here. And what would we do without your lovely one-liners (line of the day ' Destiny doesn't do home visits'... I think I will carry this forward as my motto for the next six months! So I am personally invested in you not ending up laid out on the sofa unable to string a sentence together.

Jen, lovely to hear from you. I'm aware you're probably on your own personal journey just now but good to know you've been keeping an eye on us and look forward to hearing more from you when you feel able. I spend a lot of time typing and deleting these messages on days when I feel have something to say but it just won't come.

Nosilab - yes, seems we're facing a very similar experience with this needing to be a joint decision so I really feel for you. As I said before, if you're happy to share then I'd be interested to know how your counsellor approaches your session.  . The book Sweet Grapes I keep harping on about has a good section about male ambivalence in it which you might find useful. I'll try to remember to re-read that section and share the key points.

LittleRose - it sounds as though we're in a really similar place and it helps me immensely to hear other ladies talk positively about the future. It's all too easy to take for granted the opportunities that we have BECAUSE we don't have children. Maybe at some point we would have traded the spontaneity for a big fat sloppy kiss from a toddler but that doesn't mean that it's not valuable. 

AFM - I'm STILL ill although getting better. Went for a wee dog walk with a friend at lunchtime. She had her only daughter at 40 and I find her refreshing to talk to as she wasn't someone who always assumed she would have kids and has therefore thought about a lot of the things that are challenging me. We talked quite a lot about it. I have to say I found it really hard to listen to her telling me about the deep, profound pleasure she gets from her daughter (she was trying to give me a balanced picture) but that's to be expected. The days are ticking on and whilst I think about little else at the moment and question myself, I'm not close yet to actively trying to reverse the decision. I can't really quite see how it can change now as I don't think I have the heart to go through with it with DH feeling as he does. I have some concerns that I'm placing too much emphasis on his ambivalence and that he simply isn't bothered either way and that he would in fact have 'dealt with a BFP' in a really positive way. I think we have to talk this through some more as I don't want it to be a potential source of regret later down the line. At some point I have to fully commit to the decision and get our money back and do something with the meds I suppose.

Hugs to all


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh Janie (((hugs))) I don't think you can even start to think about making decisions until you are fit and well again. Get well and then have your big talk.
Katxxx 
PS. I'm off sick remember so all the time in the world to come up with one line corkers ;-)


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Janie - just a quick note before I'm off to the land of nod.  I'm ok with my decision (but today was pretty trying, but I won't explain now).  I found it helpful to frame my decision with a caveat of 'and I have every right to change my mind again and go back to treatment if I want'.  Currently, I don't see me having to go back on it, but it has been enough for me to begin the process of embracing my new decision.  I've slowly been changing my signature, and looking less at treatment threads too.  I even have started to let people know about my decision and the majority seem happy - and if they don't then screw 'em!  But it's allowed me the freedom to 'try it out' and this has been really helpful.  It might not work for you but thought I'd mention it anyway.  Hope the flu is getting better.

Kat, Jen, JBT, Rose, Carrie, Nosilab - hello! Promise to catchup properly next week - off to go walking on Friday for a long weekend with stepmother.  May get a chance to do personals tomorrow - but thinking of you all xxx

P.S. I'm part of the 'not particularly a fan of Serum and it's promises' - and I thought it was just me!!


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

hmmm. not doing so well today. I don't want to say anything too negative because I desperately want to hang on to the idea that I'm OK with this decision but I'm just not feeling it right now. And yet I don't think there is any turning back now for DH and so I feel pretty out of control. Don't really know how I feel anymore but kept bursting into spontaneous floods of tears when out walking the dog. I guess it's just part of the process. I'm sure I could gather myself together and be positive and would start to feel better but instead I keep torturing myself with all the things that we will miss out on. I think in some ways I'm forcing myself to feel this sadness now by dwelling on all the sad things in an attempt to get it out of the way. We went out for dinner last night and I felt so much better for not thinking about it for a while. Sigh. I'm sure I'll get my vision back but today it just won't come.

Mrs P - sorry to hear you had a difficult day yesterday. I guess that we will experience these for some time. I think maybe I just no longer feel like I can change my mind and that is forcing me to fully face up to the future.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Just heading out to see the shrink but wanted to drop in with lots of love for Janie first (and the rest of you too obviously ;-) ). 

I think sometimes we need to wallow and feel sorry for ourselves. Those tears are better out than in so don't beat yourself up for feeling rubbish and don't over analyse it. Allow the sadness to come, it'll leave again in time, once you have accepted its there and it's ok for it to be there.

(((Hugs))) Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

I second that - I could have started a small river over the last few months Janie!

Hope you are ok Kat and the pain is easing xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Janie

Allow yourself to feel whatever it is you're feeling; you're grieving a real loss and trying to push those feelings away and 'gather' yourself together can only work for so long. The sadness is still there regardless and keeping it in only hurts more in the long run. 

Sometimes I think we all fall into the trap of giving ourselves a hard time for struggling with this. A friend of mine helped me see it differently; she's always been supportive, someone who listens and doesn't automatically feel the need to offer advise. She lost her mum a couple of years ago and I found it much harder to talk to her about things (including IF) after that. I felt guilty for struggling; my loss seemed insignificant in comparison to hers. She picked up on that and was able to put a different spin on it - at least she had happy memories to hold onto, however painful her loss was it was worth all the positives she had from being so close to her mum. She recognised that all I felt was loss over what I might never have, that there were no happy memories. She also acknowledged how difficult it must be in a society where IF isn't really talked about unless there's a happy ending. 

I don't know if that helps at all, I guess I'm trying say you have every right to feel this sadness, without sounding too doom and gloom. I'm still finding it hard to find the right words at the minute so it doesn't feel like I've quite achieved that balance! I do think that in order to start moving on from this you need to acknowledge and feel the hurt, even though it's painful and horrible. Let the sadness out to allow room for happier feelings. As I always tell myself in darker moments, this too shall pass. 

In the meantime we're all here to give virtual hugs and hand out the virtual hankies.

Jen xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hello Ladies, I have been lurking and reading and just mirroring everyone's responses...

Janie you are strong and brave, there are no words but loads of hugs your way... may sound stupid but again this too shall pass... there will be good days and bad days, I have no words of inspiration or comfort just know that we are here for you and you can offload any time...

Kat the carrot cake I make is always a big hit, my guess is all the rum that goes in it  rhubarb I have heard of but never had, not a fruit we get here, what does it taste like really? I only know it's red   I also made a bread pudding which is one of my husband's favourites... not sure if I will attempt anything this weekend...

Mrs P you must be excited about starting your new job soon? I am still sending out and hoping that something will come up... or I will be tearing out my hair!

Moonshadow I understand what you are saying about your friend, and sometimes I feel the same way about a friend of mine who lost her sister nearly 2 years ago and she is adopted so she only reconnected with her biological sister a few years before... it's so sad and they were so close. she has taken it so badly... and listening to her story sometimes makes me skeptical of adoption

Nosilab, LittleRose, Maisyz. Jess hi, hope you are all ok and doing well... 

AFM I am still in limbo wondering where my life will take me... today I bit the bullet and booked an all inclusive weekend during Easter in Negril on the beach! I am really looking forward to going... away from father in law and nephew and maybe be able to seriously talk to hubby abt the future... you guys are probably one more hour ahead of me as we don't change time... my thoughts are all over the place right now and so I may not post but I am reading and listening and   for all you


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## wobs (May 28, 2007)

Hello ladies

I'm sorry for going AWOL.....Just didn't come FF for a while and realised it made me less focused on IF, and so have been avoiding it for a while without really thinking about it at all.  

Big hugs   to those who need them right now.  From a quick read it sounds like a few of you are struggling.  I wish there was something I could do to help.  Don't we all.   

Kat - hope pain is easing!!! Poor you.  From having been prescribed tramadol for migraines and taking it just once - totally spaced out - couldn't even feel it when I pinched myself on my arm - well it did take the pain away!!! But you couldn't live on them.  

AFM doing really well.  I have mostly (!) accepted the fact that there is no point trying anymore treatment at the moment.  Note the at the moment - what we are saying is that if there are significant developments in the next few years we might look again.  But having had 8 treaments and no one really knowing if it is my egg, DH's sperm or my immunes there really is no point carrying on at this point.  So really we are unlikely to have any more treatment but never say never.  So feels an ok place to be right now.  Don't know if this is just putting off grieving for the future but am building a child-free life (we are looking for a house - and it won't be one with children in mind) but feels right for us.

Supply teaching is working really well for me and am enjoying it - imagine that - I'm enjoying teaching again - I never thought I would!  Long may it continue.

Don't have any wisdom for you lovely ladies, just want to wish you all the best.  Take care lovely veteran barbies - you know who you are - and all the other ladies on here too.
I'm sorry for the lack of personals - lots has happened on here since I was last on.   

Best go - off for a morning teaching 5 year olds, and then the afternoon off!   
Wobs


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Morning lovely ladies,

Janie, sadly I don't have any words of wisdom, I really wish I did. All I can say is that you know we are all here for you, and as JBT says you are a _very _ strong woman. In fact, we all are and probably without realising - given what we've all been through - could we have imagined dealing and coping with all of this when we set out?!  Lovely Janie, please don't be hard on yourself, you're bound to have good days and not such good days, but that is the natural cycle, and as hurtful as they are you probably need to experience the low times to really appreciate the good times (I *so * need to take my own advice on board  ). As the saying goes "everyone wants happiness, nobody wants pain, but you can't have a rainbow without a little rain"   xx

Jen, sooo lovely to 'see' you. And yes, I also know that feeling of typing/deleting/typing/deleting  I love the way your friend put a different spin on IF grief, she sounds very understanding and supportive - people who can see IF in that way are quite rare I think?!

JBT, your holiday sounds amazing! I'm glad you booked it, sounds like it's just what you need.

Wobs, sounds like you've come to a positive and accepting stage with tx, in a way that must be a huge relief? And the fact that you're saying 'never say never' holds the door open for you, which is great. Sounds like a really positive step forward.

Kat, hope you're doing ok?

Nothing really to update from me - same old same old. Feeling relatively positive at the moment so here's hoping it lasts for a while  DH and I are going to try and plan some nice things to do together over the Easter break - I'd like to get to the coast at least once.

Big hello to everyone else, thinking of you all xxx


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

morning  

just a quick drop in before i go to work

janie - u need to give yourself time to adjust to the decision you've made think you went with your gut when u cancelled greece and it didn't feel right but u still need time to come to terms with the decision you've made which will involve thinking about what u may be missing out on and grieving about what might not be.  Only time will tell but you've been incredibly strong to make such a step one i am unable to do at the minute.  Big   to u.

Nosilab - thanks for your kind words but me and dh are still no nearer to any resolution infact we are further apart than ever. not many people know about ivf only a few who need to at work and a couple of close friends who don't live nearby but they don't know how bad things have got between dh and me only that we are not getting on.  I cannot c a future for the two of us at the minute if he won't consider one more ivf and he def doesn't want to dp anything at the minute while we aren't getting along.  I just feel so miserable all the time and its making him unhappy as well.  I'm not a go to counselling kind of person and he is def not so we just stand in limbo.  I end up taking out my frustration on him which doesn't help.

well off to work i suppose


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Morning all,

3 good things today:
1. Reading that post from you wobs and hearing you sound so upbeat about life in general. Good in you and come back and read your post again when you feel a but low xxx
2. DH booked me some akupunkur for tomorrow.
3. I reckon I got 5 hours sleep last night which is way more than any other night recently.

JBT - funnily enough as I was typing the post, I suspected you wouldn't have rhubarb. If it grows in my Norwegian garden it's unlikely to grow in your Jamaican one. I'm not sure I can describe it and make it sound nice. It's kind of stringy texture and not usually very sweet. It's yummy warm though when its soft. Rum in carrot cake sound like a top idea.

Janie - xxx

Jen - your friend sounds fab. Can we all borrow her?

Nosilab - enjoy feeling good and I hope you can plan some nice stuff for Easter.  The thought of fish&chips on the coast is enough to make me homesick.

MrsP - did you plan your weekend away?

Hi to everyone else too. Hope you are all ticking along ok?

We were supposed to be away meeting up with friends this weekend but we've had to cancel as 6 hours in the car will break me. We don't see each other very much as she lives a flight away so meeting in the middle sounded like a good idea at the time. A few tears were shed :-( Who was is who mentioned flooding rivers with tears? It's a good job we all live so far apart otherwise places would be on flood warnings again lol. On a positive though, my shrink thinks we'll get my op brought forward. She thinks I'm too 'high risk' (read crazy ;-) ) to wait so long and she hit the roof when she heard how much medication I have at home at the moment since I'm only allowed small amount usually. Well after sleeping last night I think I can chill with my book today.
I love Carlos Ruiz zafon 

Lots of love, katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh set, please see if you can gather the strength together to try a session of counselling. I too thought I would hate it, it's just not me at all. I was forced to go by work a few years ago and it was hell, but only 50 minutes of hell but i wouldn't be here today without it. I don't like going but I know it helps. Thing is, if you have a session and decide it was a waste of time, well it was only a waste of a tiny bit of time. And why if it actually helps - might be worth the risk hey?

Otherwise, have you tried talking whilst walking instead of sitting down to do it? Sometimes it really helps not to make eye contact and to be on neutral ground. Our biggest heart to hearts were always walking the dog or driving the car. I don't know what else to say and probably you just wanted a hug and not words of advice - sorry - it just makes me sad to hear you are so stuck on such a horrid place.

Offload on us though rather than keeping it all in.

Thinking of you, katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all

Wobs - lovely to hear from you; it can be inspiring to hear such positivity  . I think it's great that you can focus on a child-free future without feeling the need to completely shut that door. I think in some ways I've convinced myself that I need to make a definitive decision and that there'll be no going back from that. In one sense that at least would give a sense of closure but whose to say that's needed? Food for thought.

Set - I'm really sorry to hear things aren't good between you and DH. I can relate to a degree, I feel as though my marriage is fairly fragile at the minute. I'm with Kat on the counselling, I never thought I would either need or benefit from it but was wrong on both counts, it took hitting rock bottom to get me there. Maybe one day I'll persuade my DH to go with me but the counselling I had on my own was also invaluable. I also agree that walking and talking is easier somehow, trying to talk at home usually descends into hurtful arguments for us whereas out walking we seem to be able to talk more openly and honestly without the recriminations.

Kat - sorry to hear you've had to cancel your weekend (why does sorry seem so inadequate?), perhaps it will be something you can rearrange in the not to distant future if you can get the op sorted. It sounds like you have a good advocate there, rightly so. As so often is the case it sounds like your surgeon has a very narrow view of your situation and isn't taking into account the wider implications of delaying surgery  . I hope the akupunkur (I'm guessing acupuncture) brings more sleep your way.

Nosilab - you're so right, I doubt any of us imagined coping with what we have. Sometimes it's only when you get past that and can look back that you begin to recognise the courage it takes.

JBT - Good for you for booking a holiday, it sounds to be exactly what you need right now. Have fun, create some happy memories with DH and try to leave the IF stuff behind for a while. As for rhubarb - you're missing a treat  

And yes, my friend is lovely, she's probably the only person I know who has children (and hasn't faced IF issues) and still seems to get it


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

You girls are just totally amazing and I'm so glad I've 'met' you.  I'm secretly harboring plans to meet you all in person one day. 

Wobs - lovely to hear from you and I echo the other ladies in saying how great it is hear your positivity and that you're enjoying your job again and things are settling a bit for you. I'm sure you still have your moments but it's comforting to hear that you are making peace with your decision. I see you and Mrs Pootle as pioneers setting out to unknown frontiers of childfreeness in the footsteps of our gallant heroine NordicKat!

Jen - thanks for your kind words yesterday. I completely agree that we shouldn't underplay the grief that we are experiencing for the children we might not have. I don't think many folk who haven't experienced IF really 'get' that (as you say, especially those with children) so your friend sounds like a treasure. I've found my childfree friends are much more understanding of what I'm going through than those with children but I think it's mainly because they are the one's with the time to really listen to it when I need it. In fairness I tend to avoid discussing it too much with people who have kids because they nearly always say something along the lines of it 'all being worth it' and that usually sets me off in a tailspin. I'm not sure if you've had your FET yet but wherever you're at, I hope you're doing OK. 

Kat - well hallelujah that you've got one of the professionals on side. I really hope you get somewhere with getting your op moved forward. I think you know we're all rooting for you. Rubbish about having to cancel the weekend. I really feel for you about all this because you've been so strong in moving on from IF and you deserve a break and for other things to be a bit easier. I sincerely hope that things are on the up for you. Hopefully you can plan a substitute weekend with a few 'moments' to look forward to that are manageable in your present state. Glad you've got your head in a good book. Now that sounds like bliss... I think I may do that myself this weekend... and for once not one on IF / childfree! Any recommendations for something suitably light?

SET - I echo the other ladies, I didn't think I would find counselling all that useful. It's not that I'm 'not a counselling kind of person' but more that I didn't see how it could help. But it did. And I'm starting to think that DH and I also need to speak to someone together just to get us over this current hump in the road. Something clearly needs to help you both to find a way around the current status quo without even more bitterness sinking in. It must be really hard for you just now.  

Nosilab... you and I are fairly well in the same place I think. So much of our thinking about this process are related to the way our DH's feel about it. I get the impression that you, like me, don't feel badly of your DH for his outlook but nevertheless the whole thing is just so horribly sad.  I'm glad you're planning some lovely things to do over Easter... I intend to go forth and do the same. I'm vaguely considering seeking some more counselling and also of the notion that I should get DH to come along for a session. So as you know, I'm still really keen (in a non-prying way!!) to know how your counsellor goes about helping you to resolve your stand-off. Good luck with it.

JBT - I decided to google Negril and oh my word ladies, I suggest you all do similar. Looks absolutely beautiful so I doubt you will have problems coming up with your 3 good things missie! I know if you're anything like me then it would probably take all the sun and sea in the world to truly lift your spirit but it certainly looks like a good start. Enjoy. What are you baking us this weekend?

AFM - I can't tell you how much all your comments have helped me. Yesterday was a bad day but you're all absolutely right, I've just got to ride the storm. As I said, one of my big issues was that I felt like it was no turning back for DH and I was just panicking that I'd only made the decision because I was ill and now I have to live with it forever. But that's not the case because a) I know deep down that isn't the only reason I made this decision and b) DH has reassured me that he would still go ahead (still not what he wants and still under the basis that he would ' deal with a BFP' if it happens) if I can't live with it. I'm really not sure of anything just now but I feel it's the right thing to do to try and live with this decision for a few months. Unfortunately, our age is one of the things that is concerning me most (and again I reiterate, this is a hugely personal feeling and no reflection on older mums because I think they rock) but I had a good chat to a friend yesterday and I'm more at peace that a couple of months won't make any difference. I've taken some action and contacted the clinic and told them the situation. DH and I are going to head away for a night so we can have a proper talk and then assuming that goes as expected I'm going to press on with trying to commit to that being that. I have had a look at my diary and worked out when we 'could' cycle again if I do really need to change my mind (because if I didn't then this would constantly play on my mind). Maybe that seems a bit half-hearted and maybe I'm kidding myself because now I've decided this I don't feel anywhere near as bad as I did yesterday but my friend helped me to see how far I've come since my last BFN in November when I was still thinking of three more rounds and I think I've realised how much I was trying to rush through this decision because I so badly want this hell to be over. I feel certain that at the very most I would be considering going through with one last go (the one I already have the drugs for!!) and I suspect that we won't even do that but I need a little more time to feel OK with this.

So in the spirit of 'moving on' I'm going to try and step back just a wee bit from the forum (I'm not going anywhere far and will still check in at least every couple of days but maybe I'll stop hitting refresh every 15 mins!!). 

I hope everyone has a good weekend. Take care y'all!
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oooh, now you are talking my language, book talk 

An excellent light read is 'the hundred year old man who climbed out the window and disappeared. Easy to read, likable characters, very Scandinavian and funny.
'The snow child' is also good but it is about a childfree couple so you may cry a little.
'The guernsey literary and potato peel society' is another easy read as is 'the scent of lemon leaves' and 'the particular sadness of lemon cake'. Actually that last one is a must. Ooh, and then there is 'the knitting circle' too.

Oh and set this thread to give you email alerts so then you know if somebody has posted and you can come here direct through the link so then you avoid temptation of other threads  And heroine made me choke on my tea lol.

Jen - I forget to change my phone language so the odd word comes out with Norwegian spelling but more often if I only use the word in Norwegian then that's how it comes out. There was still a typo though and it's actually akupunktur ;-)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat, thanks for the book recommendations. I'm about to hit amazon. And ha! My kindle is linked to dh's account so he's paying!  I'll come back with some of my own when not on phone.

Also, thanks for heads up on 'notify' (at least am assuming that's it). For some reason I had never noticed that before. 

Xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies:

Janie: Let me tell you girl, my husband has already warned me that I am going there to relax, because I have a hard time doing that always needing something to do! Negril is a great place we love it most beautiful beaches on the island... we are going to a hotel called Breezes Negril google it and you can get an idea of where I'll be... Negril is on one end of the island I live on the other so it takes about 3 1/2 hours to get there... You sound a lot better about your decision even if you don't feel so, you actually sound good   ... as for books going back to DH's comments abt relaxing I tend to prefer mysteries and dramas so I would always recommend a James Patterson, of late I have been doing light and quirky just finished The Sisters Montclair by Cathy Holton and Crazy Little Thing by Tracy Brogan also NYPD Red by James Patterson. I have one to read on trip called Wait for Me but I think I am going to google some of Kat's recommendations... Please let us know what you end up with... 

Kat: So happy to hear you may get your op moved up!  it all works out... I like your 3 positive things... I need to adopt that habit and write 3 positive things each day... I like your suggestion about not sitting and talk I have found the same thing when DH and I have talks it becomes far more progressive when we have the talk while we are walking or on a long drive to the country...

Wobs: so good to hear from you, you sound like you are in a good place... congrats! and to hear someone say they are loving their job again is refreshing.. I want to be that place... 

Set: I wish I could offer some words of wisdom and poof it's all better but I can't... I can say though that I understand where you are with DH you just have to think about why you fell in love in the first place, look at what is the true reason you aren't getting along... let me tell you hubby and I had our issues early on in our IF journey compounded with the fact that his son and I aren't very close in fact he used to say really nasty things to me and hubby would do nothing... it was painful and I know this may not relate to your situation but we worked through it, we didn't crowd each other and force either issue on each other we just worked it out... it helps that he has a calmer disposition than me... I may not make much sense and I am sure everyone who knows your situation says the same thing "oh you can work it out" or "marriage takes work" or "everything will work out"  but again only you can determine your destiny and your happiness!

Moonshadow: It is exactly what I need. only thing is I need a swimsuit 

Not sure what is on the baking menu this week, it is ironic though that I just got my recipe of the day from one of my cooking sites and go figure it's a recipe for Rhubarb Raspberry Galette none of which we get here! So perhaps I will stick with a blueberry muffin or coffee bake...

I hope you ladies have a wonderful weekend and you all do something exciting for Easter... my brother and his family are actually off to England on Monday (he lives in Florida) we have family in Aldershot ( i think that's how it's spelt)... and yes Janie I have this thread on notify too...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh my goodness JBT, negril looks fab ............ room for a small one? You know it would be selfish of you not to let us all squeeze in your suitcase don't you? It's especially appealing since it started snowing  here 24 hours ago and it's still going strong.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hmm... methinks a 4.30am post didn't come from a place of comfort Kat. Hope you're doing OK and managed to get some sleep.

JBT - harumph. My overnighter in the campervan to a windswept Scottish beach not seeming quite so attractive now I've seen all that blue-skied loveliness.

SET - I've been thinking about you a lot. Where you are at is really tough. I guess I've realised how much difference it has made for me that DH remains willing to go ahead with something even if it is grudgingly and just how hard it must feel when that door feels like it is shut. Is their no compromise ground? Taking some time out for six months and then seeing how you both feel? I know our DHs are entitled to their own feelings but I'm not sure that it's OK to just say no more without at least discussing what options are open to you both? This is just so hard. How many decisions in life are really so co-dependent? And men just handle these things differently. My DH discusses something once and then sees no reason to revisit it. 

JBT, yes, I am doing a bit better but largely I think because I've dipped back into denial for a while as I wasn't ready to take the full impact of the grief that followed. Not sure how things will pan out. Really need to talk to DH some more this weekend. 

xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Ladies u r all welcome in my suitcase! It's funny how u Kat want to be here and me I'd love to b  there! I must confess we do take advantage of our surroundings. Janie I hope you have a lovely weekend. Kat snow in March? Really! So sorry about that  hope you are not in too much pain today. Set thinking of you hon. Wobs, Moonshadow, Jess, Carrie Mrs P  hope u r all having a good weekend.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

5:30 my time doesn't sound so bad does it? I don't sleep at the moment, which apart from being exhausting and upsetting, it's really boring! Maybe I'm weird but to be honest the windswept Scottish beach is more my thing Janie, especially in a cosy campervan. I think I bit of denial early on is a safe option. Maybe it's better to deal with the emotions I small pieces rather then open your heart up straight away.

JBT - march snow is completely normal for us it was the previous 2 weeks of blue sky with thawing that was odd. We never see the garden before mid-April and then suddenly the snow vanishes and we are on 24 hours daylight again. DH is miffed because he has to do all the snow shoveling himself ......... I'm a very good supervisor though ;-)

OMFG - I had acupuncture to treat the pain not the prolapse and it the most pain I've ever had. I was shouting at her to stop at one point which is unheard of from me and I couldn't last a full hour. I vowed never to go back but sadly I think it may have helped slightly. Just need to decide whether the short term pain was worth the long term gain. I had to go for coffee and cake afterwards ......... any excuse hey ;-)

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Set, I totally understand that counselling might not normally be your thing, I know it doesn't suit everyone.  But I do completely agree with Jen and Kat that it really can help, as you're able to discuss stuff on safe/neutral ground.  Even if initially DH won't go with you (as mine never has) maybe you could consider having just one 'taster' session for yourself?? As Kat says, if you go and you decide it's not for you you've only wasted 50 mins of your time but at least you've given it a try.  I also agree with the other ladies about trying to chat to DH whilst out on a walk.  It's a good point that Kat makes about not having to make eye contact (I'd never thought about it like that) and so in a way it's not so intense.  You also have other minor distractions going on around you.  It really makes me sad that you feel so miserable all the time and I wish I had a magic wand (for all of us) to make things better.

Kat, oooo fish and chips on the sea front, can't beat it eh!  I'll 'toast a chip' to you if we end up doing that    So sad that you had to cancel your trip away, how frustrating for you!  Fab news though that you now have someone to help fight your corner to bring your op further forward.  Thanks for the book recommendations, I'll be logging on to Amazon too!  I'd forgotten that you'll get all those daylight hours living over in Norway.

Janie, I too have a secret wish that one day we can all meet up in person, wouldn't that be great!  Only slight prob is that I don't like flying so I wouldn't be able to get to Norway or Jamaica    Yes, I am the same as you in that I don't feel angry towards my DH with his reluctance in all of this, it makes me feel sad and a lonely, but I don't feel anger towards him.  I know most of my friends and family get really frustrated with him, and with the patience I have with him.  But I guess it's partly because he's been open and honest from the very start so none of this is a great shock really.  We're hoping to get down to Devon over Easter, only for 1-2 nights probably, but at least we'll be by the sea.  Have you came up with any nice plans?  Is Easter when you plan to be on a windswept beach in Scotland - I agree with Kat, that's def my kinda thing! I will def tell you the outcome of Wednesdays session - although I don't think they'll be any great revelations but I'll let you know what she/we say.  I really laughed at the "not refreshing every 15 mins"    I definitely do that too!

JBT, just googled Negril - wow..wow..wow!!  Just stunning!  Enjoy your holiday and I don't blame you for taking advantage of your surroundings.  Yes, Aldershot is spelt correctly, that's near (ish) my part of the world.

Hello to everyone 

PS Kat, sorry to hear your acupuncture was so painful!  Sounds horrendous! I hope you get some good out of it in the long run though.


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

just been writing a reply and lost it all 
aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh

thanks for all your kind words its good to expel some of my demons on here.  I really don't know about the counseling thing but after seeing that several of u have done it without dh i will certainly ponder it.

jbt - don't agree with the others and the rhubarb being a good thing i think its evil your coffee bake sounds much better i love anything coffeeish is this a cake?

kat - did the acc not help at all?  I had it leading up to 2 of my cycles with mixed results so i guess i sit on the fence about it.

fish and chips at the coast sounds good i have a week off in april and need to get some stuff planned to do i don't want to spend it with nothing to do and bicker with dh the whole week would like to go away for a night somewhere.  All we have so far is a 2 hour chocolate making course on  the mon night that we got given for christmas.  i'm hoping we get to keep everything we make.  

anyway best be off 
take care peeps
xx   xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Painful weekend here trying to encourage DH to 'do talking'. Blood. Stone. I think we've agreed  a position which is for me to try to live with and commit to 'moving on' but from the safety for now of knowing that DH will support me if I need to change my mind. We have commitments so would need to leave it a couple of months which will hopefully give me a chance to get used to the idea. Am too exhausted to care right now. DH has (I think) agreed to come to a counselling session with me just before Easter so we'll see how that goes. Nosilab, same situation here, DH has been honest from the start. You can't make them feel differently I guess. OK, stupid tablet playing up so can't type properly so signing out for now. Xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Set - if nothing else, counselling is a place you can shout or scream, or whatever it is you need to do. They won't judge you, they'll just let you let it all out and not accuse you of being crazy, hormonal, obsessed or irrational. Maybe going alone would be good at least to start with, vocalizing your thoughts might help you get them in order. It's very cleansing to be allowed to cry and not have somebody try to stop you, letting it all out is tiring but a great relief and therapy is a good place to do it because they are trained to bring you back to a safe place afterwards. 

My counselling isn't IF related so doesn't involve DH in the same way as others might. He was asked to come in once to see how best to support me. He was so reluctant and against 'psychobabble' or having somebody try to 'analyze' his every move. Anyway he did it for me but had told me he wouldn't talk about himself at all. 'I don't need a shrink and I don't need them telling me what's I'm thinking' - I've deleted his expletives ;-) Anyway, he went in and completely dominated the entire hour and opened his heart (he obviously denies it now) and it really helped us for a while, and that was just one session. He also had to come to a session while I was in hospital and I think that was good for him, it let him see and understand a little that I'm not irrational and that my feelings are real and need caring for.

Nosilab - I am very easily persuaded to have trip to the uk  Name a time and a place and I'm there. Preferably somewhere with an M&S so I can restock on pants, and access to good food and a good pint and I'm in heaven 

Janie - it sounds like leaving it a couple if months is a good idea which ever way you turn next. A little time to work out how you really feel without the pressure if another cycle just around the corner. No decision is irreversible and it sounds like your happiness is what counts for your DH which is a good place to be. Now don't spend to months thinking all of the time. Thinking under pressure is rubbish. Just live and go with the flow, the sad times and the times for analyzing your feelings will flow in when they need to be dealt with. Maybe stay away from IF books for a couple of weeks too ;-)

Right, tramadol kicking in again so sorry if anything I have written sounds like it comes from a junkie ....... it does ;-) .......... time for a wee bit more sleep.

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

My DH is the same in that he hates the idea of going along to see a "talky head" (in his words!), he doesn't see the point and thinks there is nothing they can do or say to change anything so he'd rather just try and deal with stuff on his own.  The only reason I've managed to get him to come along to the session this Wednesday is because of our melt down in early January - but up to now I've always gone to my sessions on my own.  My DH usually says something along the lines of your DH Kat!

Sounds good to me Kat!  And I'm sure we can accommodate an M&S (gotta love M&S pants!) plus good food and beer!  Any other takers?!  

I've (crazily!) booked to go and get some careers advice today!  What the heck am I doing?!?!  

xx

PS:  I tried the 'notify' but it didn't work - as in, it didn't send me an email.  Also, does anyone know if there is a way to un-link yourself from previous threads?  I still get updates from my old cycle buddies thread but I don't know how to stop the updates appearing?? xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - just had to reply.... that's GREAT that you've booked to get careers advice. I can't remember if you've said what you do but I do remember you posting saying you were working pretty hard. Are you thinking of a complete career change? I'd love to know more!! Now this is the sort of thing we could talk about in an M&S cafe! (I'm in by the way...). Are you based down South? I only ask because my Dad still lives in the South and I'm down from time-to-time to help him with stuff (he's 80). 

I don't work on Mondays (was all part of my masterplan to retrain a couple of years ago but have largely used the time for scheduling IF appointments....sigh) so today I'm sitting by the fire with the dog and a big pile of books (and I'm loving every minute of it) including a mix of mindfulness, fiction and... careers type books (Kat - no IF books, am really done with them for a while!). I currently work in a specialist area of IT but how I ended up there I'll never understand. I'm thinking about occupational therapy and just started doing some relevant volunteering. I have ideas about that turning into something like horticultural therapy... or maybe something with dogs (my dog is suffering for my career-change cause as I signed him up as a therapet!). But I really need the whole IF thing to be resolved because then I think I'll be better able to just crack-on and throw myself into it. I'm currently 'managing' a range of un-truths that I have told the various agencies I've signed up with because I'm supposed to be in Greece right now. Will probably call them today and confirm I'm available again.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - I'm no expert on how FF works but when you say 'linked' do you mean that you get notifications from the other thread. If so, I think you just need to select 'un-notify' against that thread. But then why you can't notify on this thread is beyond me I'm afraid. I assume you've got the correct email address referenced in your profile?


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all

Count me in on any plans to meet up  

DH would also rather stick pins in his eyes than go and talk to someone (he could never refer to them as a counsellor, or therapist, that would be an admission that something was wrong). He did once reluctantly agree to come along at the suggestion of my therapist (for non IF stuff), but it never materialised. He's very much in the 'I don't need it' camp, though he can be a fairly emotional person at times. Personally I think it would help him, and us, enormously. 

Janie - you sound exhausted   At the same time it sounds like you really needed to make sure hb was on the same page as you; that you need to feel that the decision not to proceed for now isn't necessarily final. I do think that's important - whatever you decide you need his support, not to have to try and explain/justify any change of heart. Having that understanding in place will allow you to really explore your feelings as to whether this is the end of the road for you or not. 

Kat - how are you feeling now after the acupunture? I've only had it for IF stuff but I know of others who have it to manage conditions such as migraine. Do you know yet whether the additional agony was worth it in the long run? I'm going to look at your book recommendations, I've been on the lookout for a decent read for a while.

Nosilab - good luck today! It can feel daunting to think about moving jobs but at the same time exciting (says she who has been in the same job for 13 years  ) Careers advice is a good palce to start though, it's exploring your options and figuring out what, if anything, you need to do. I'll also be thinking of you on Wednesday  

JBT - Wow, how much do I want to jump in your suitcase?! I'm looking out on a very grey Newcastle sky-line and wishing for some of that sun. ps - don't listen to Set, rhubarb is lush  

Set - After 2 hour of choc making I probably wouldn't be fit to move for the rest of the week so I hope whatever else you plan for your week isn't too energetic! I doubt I'd have anything left to take home...

AFM - not much to report, a fairly quiet weekend which was probably needed but tends to give me too much thinking space. I feel like I need a bit of a kick up the backside at the minute; I can't seem to snap out of feeling generally a bit sorry for myself and even I'm getting a bit bored of it.

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I just need a little whimper if that's ok. For reasons involving my less pleasant organs like bladder, bowel and womb, I'm on my way to A&E ASAP with a referral letter. I'm a bit scared and DH is at a conference til tonight and I could do with his hand to hold. I'm suddenly a complete wimp and think I preferred the 3 month wait :-(


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh Kat, that sounds awful. You poor thing.   . Hopefully this will surely be the start of your pain getting resolved. I really hope so. Don't leave until you are experiencing an appropriate level of comfort. Thinking of you. Xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Whimper away Kat, but you're definitely not a wimp. It's understandably scary and not having DH there is just rubbish. I can do virtual hand-holding if that's any good? Also thinking of you xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Panic over, DH is on his way with PJs and toothbrush (and hopefully a bb gun so i can deal with the snoring granny!). No need for emergency surgery as things are functioning well enough but I'm here for obs and to try out new hardcore drugs. Don't have it in me to reply properly to all your posts but I'll be right as rain again tomorrow. They promised me sleep and I can't wait. I'm going to be so pee'd off if granny keeps me awake I can tell you.

Kat (the brave soldier again after much sobbing to a random nurse earlier ;-) )


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh Kat, thinking of you too... you are a trooper and brave soldier... but I too am here for virtual hand holding, shoulder crying, ear screaming hugs hugs hugs...

You are NOT a wimp, far from it! Hope you get a good night's sleep and granny doesn't keep you up


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Ladies quick note, at work. Had a horrible day yesterday too much emotions... Yesterday was 19 years since my dad passed away and having no family around it's hard sometimes and it was also my niece's 16th birthday, of which I could not spend it with her   Then I began thinking I may never be able to experience the joys of those milestones with my own... I keep thinking, being selfish here, when I grow old who will be there for me?  

On the upside I actually spoke with someone in the HR field today and was telling her my dilemma with job search etc so she says she'll take a look at my resume and get back to me... so let's see where that leads me. 

After hearing you ladies talk about counselling I have been seriously considering it, I know DH will not go with me but I think I need to get over some issues and secretly maybe I don't want him to come either because I think deep down he is part of the reason ss and I are not closer than we should be. But that is a whole different story altogether. I am not blaming anyone we are all responsible for our own actions.  

I am with all you ladies on meeting up on day... unfortunately I not get a visa to go to the UK   not only is it expensive it isn't guaranteed and becoming harder and harder to get one...  but I can try  

Will do personals later just wanted to exhale for a moment.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Kat! You poor thing!! *said in a hushed voice so that I don't wake you in case you're already sleeping*

Kind of on the plus side (that silver lining etc) at least you're finally where you should be. I'm here for virtual hand holding too! Guess it's gonna get quite cosy (in a virtual way) around your bed at this rate  Please keep us updated on what happens 

So, the careers advice went ok, bit of a whirlwind and bizarre experience but that's another very long story so I'll spare you the finer details! I've got some Internet research to do as my 'homework' and then another meet up in a few weeks time, I think.

Hi Janie, I don't think I have said on here what I do, but I work in a university as admin. I'm trying to be vague enough that I'm not too identifiable but also give you enough info  To be honest, I'm really not sure if I'm looking for a complete career change, but I would like _some_ kind of change, I just don't know what. I had this crazy plan to either train as a sign language interpreter or as an art therapist - but having the low self confidence that I have I just don't think I'm clever enough for either. Plus I can't afford to come out of full time work to re-train. So if I do anything at all I think it'll be just using my 'transferable skills'. Yes I'm South, South West, where do you go to visit your dad? This would def be good chat for the M&S cafe  Sounds like you've had a fab day by the fire with your dog and a good book, bliss! I like the idea of horticultural therapy, plus the fact that your little pooch has been signed up as a therapet! How sweet! Thanks for info re unlinking etc, I'll have a look and double check.

Thanks Jen, you're right that even though initially I felt a bit daunted by the careers appt today, all I'm doing at the moment is exploring my options, I haven't actually committed to leaving my job. Thank you for putting it back into perspective  Wish there was something I could do to help cheer you up, so annoying that we all live so far apart.

JBT, I don't think that's a selfish thing to think, I'd say it's perfectly natural to think those things. I do all the time. It's so hard not to grieve for the 'maybe milestones', it just brings it all back home to us. Really great news re the lady in HR checking your CV (resume). Also good news re you considering counselling, I really do think it'd help and I think it's good to think about going on your own initially as you'll then have the space to talk freely.

xx


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Kat   Hope you feel a whole lot better soon and get some sleep!

Sorry for crashing the thread, ladies but I'm not sure if Kat's reading the one on the Moving On board and when I realised that she's in hospital I had to say something. 

Rowanxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Nosilab, it is annoying we r so far apart!I would love nothing more than to belong to a group! You girls are so lucky to have all those opportunities & options. Nosilab I kinda wish I worked in a university or school but not in the teaching capacity. Admin or curriculum development. I too need to retool but need money to do that.

Thinking abt Kat, silently though 

Janie how are you doing today? Set I hope you are feeling a little better. Mrs P you getting ready for the big day?

Easter is approaching and I have to decide if I am making easter buns, do you have that there? It's a dense loaf made with stout and fruits. We eat it with cheese or alone. I don't know if i am describing it well but hopefully u get the drift.

Hi Moonshadow& Wobs if you are lurking.

Night ladies


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

JBT, it is _very _ annoying that we all live so far apart, I totally agree. Yes, it does have it's good points working here, I work in a really good team so I'm lucky in that sense, but as with everywhere nothing stays the same, and since they did a 'restructure' (  ) a few years ago it's not quite the same as it was. The Easter buns you make sound like our hot cross buns, although they're not usually made as a loaf, just little individual buns with mixed spices and dried fruits - yummy! I'm really not into baking but I really wish I was as I love food! The most I've ever done is make some chocolate brownies - I've a long way to go to catch up to the standards of you and Kat 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/hotcrossbuns_397

Hi all xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Yes it's kinda like hot cross buns as a loaf and much darker.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I just had a long chat with a FF buddy and now I'm whacked so short and sweet from me.

We have marzipan chicks for Easter - how rubbish is that!

Janie - horticultural therapist is my dream job. I'm still hoping to do it once I'm well enough to do the training which I'll do some of in the uk. I suggested our dog be a therapy dog and DH thinks he's not up to the mark ........ could have a point.

Nosilab - hope tomorrow goes well.

I've been admitted until I have my op which should be this week. I'm doing ok though and have some pain free moments which I'll make the most of tomorrow and post properly. The nurse thought I was super brave tonight for not batting an eyelid when she injected my thigh - 9 rounds of ivf, 5 with clexane, stop you noticing small things like that ;-) Some of my fellow patients are way more crazy than any I met in the loonybin!

Back properly tomorrow. Thanks for gathering around my bed with me. It had helped xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, fantastic news that your op will now be this week!  Result! Still hand holding if you need it although by the sounds of things it sounds like you're doing just fine


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat happy to hear, Nosilab she sounds like she have it under control. But just in case we are still bedside!

Good luck tomorrow Nosilab. 

Marzipan chicks   That doesn't sound appetizing.

Went swimsuit shopping today for my trip, had to get it made didn't see any that fit my dummpy self


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Just a quick one from me as on my phone. Kat is this the op that you were originally told you would have to wait until June for? If so then that is great news and just brilliant that someone has seen sense. I hope you scored a few decent zzzs last night.  That is truly bizarre that you're also thinking along the same career lines. Will have to chat more about that when you're recuperating.

Nosilab, your ideas sound really interesting too. Funding these ideas is the harsh reality, especially as we've all had to pour our savings into treatment. But I think maybe we need that extra fulfillment for all the obvious reasons. It bugs me when childfree women are so often perceived as career driven. I couldn't give a flying **** about my career but I do want to feel there is some value in what I do. Especially now. Good luck tomorrow. I really hope it helps. We've got an appointment next week, dh has agreed to come.

Jbt... Hush! I bet you look fab in your swimsuit! Sorry you were having a difficult day yesterday. There aren't 
any easy answers. It must be hard with your family so far away. Maybe you could start with a solo session and see how you get on. I often leave feeling a bit let down but it helps me to reflect afterwards. Argh, phone running out of battery. Chat more soon. 

Hugs to everyone.
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Good morning,
I'm going to do lots of short posts today as its easier but you'll be sick of hearing from me by the end of the day lol.

Firstly a bit me me me ;-) There are 4 of us in my room and the others a old codgers and listening to them is so funny. One is senile and wanders off all of the time but then never finds her bad again bless her. I want putting down for sure if I get like that. She is so stressed all of the time because she has no idea what is going on. I confess to getting disorientated in the night too though. I woke up and didn't know whether I was in a farmyard or on safari listening to hippos! How can 3 such small bodies snor so loud. One of them, a big saddleback I think, just told the nurse she hardly slept last night. I nearly choked. Thing in the nurse was in to see me every hour so heard all the snorring too! OAPs hey, who'd be one! Despite it though I had such a good nights sleep 

Janie - I was going to do one of the Thrive courses but then got sick. HT is not a big thing here at all but I thought I could build something up slowly and slowly reduce my 'proper job' working hours. I still hope to do it but now it's a long term thing. There are a couple of people in norway with PhDs in the field but nobody actually working as an HT and I'm still hoping to be the first. Small holding with greenhouses and sheds as well as gardens is still on the cards one day. DH is keeping his eye out for properties but it could easily take 5-10 years before something comes up. You already have a head start on me there!

Somebody mentioned not wanting to share their councellor with DH. I completely understand that. Its my safe place and i can't risk that being destroyed if DH had been part of it. If we had counselling together it would be somewhere new. Don't panic though janie/nosilab, he came to see my old counsellor which was great. Good for him, me and us. 

Oh and janie, yes the op that i need this week is the one that could wait 3 months. Luckily (possibley not the right word lol) once the nerves around your bladder etc are effected then you are risking permanent damage so best to op now before I start peeing myself as then its emergency surgery. I would say I'm pooping my pants about the op but that's probably an inappropriate phrase ;-)


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - tailor made swimmers! That's my kind of shopping and I bet you'll look fab. Small is beautiful, and deffo in swimmers  Your Easter cake sounds like a Welsh cake that I can't remember the name of. Rich and fruity mmmmmmmm

Nosilab - I think you are underestimating your cleverness. I can tell just from your posts that you are clever enough to do whatever to are determined to do. Art therapy would be cool. We had several art therapy rooms in the loonybin, and even an art therapy cafe, and people got so much out of it. Low self esteem meant I was too scared to go though but that's where you as a therapist would come in I guess. Even if you have low self esteem I bet you find it easy to big up others? I guess you'll be looking into it as part of your homework anyway.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - hope you are ok? I'm with you on the chocolate making and I'd be more likely to make myself sick than have stuff to take home. How is your knee by the way.

Set - I love the idea of chocolate making, maybe I should have look for a place here. Or maybe you can trial it so we can have our meet up there instead of M&S?!

Hi Rowan xxx Thanks for popping in. I don't have it in me for more than one thread I'm afraid. Say hi to he others though next time you post and I'll be back soon.

MrsP - I hope you are super busy enjoying your last weeks of freedom? Looking forward to starting something new?

I know I've missed somebody but I've gone to mush. Time to pull the amazing chord I have. I pull it and a nurse comes running with drugs ............ just got to find the cake chord and it'll be like an all inclusive holiday ;-)

Enjoy your day everyone, katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - Bara Brith is the welsh fruit cake you eat with cheese.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

All this talk of food is just making me hungry! Well, apart from marzipan chicks - you can keep those Kat!

Kat - it sounds like you're getting somewhere at last, and that your finally getting decent pain management. I was going to say keep us posted but I don't think you need the encouragement   Your description of your fellow room-mates had me chuckling; why is it that snorers always claim to have been awake all night? We're all here keeping you company.

Nosilab - let us know how you get on today, I really hope both you and DH get something from it. 

Janie - I'm with you, I don't give two hoots about my 'career' but I do want to feel like what I do matters. I used to volunteer with people with learning disabilities, it was really rewarding and I was looking into therapy through riding (horses that is!) but for various reasons had to back away from it. It's interesting hearing all your thoughts on possible future career changes and it's certainly prodding that part of me that used to be more driven. I'd love to study psychology but think I probably need to sort my own head out before tackling that!

JBT - I'm sorry you had a tough day earlier this week, how're you doing now? It's not selfish to think along those lines, I'm close to my parents and feel sad that I may not have that relationship a generation on, it's not always just about sadness over not having a baby or small children. 

Not much to report from me other than I had some sad news yesterday when I learnt that someone I know committed suicide at the weekend. Sorry to end on such a sad note, I'm angry at some of the comments I've heard over the last few days, it's turned into a gossip-fest, full of judgements. Although I wasn't close to him I just feel so sad that he was in such a bad place, he was a lovely, gentle guy and will be missed. 

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Lol yeah, sorry about the long posts. I'll try and keep them to a minimum now ;-)


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Jen, that's awful and very very sad.  People make me so angry in situations like that, it's like they forget they're actually talking about another human being, someone's son/brother/partner/friend etc.  I've just completed a Mental Health First Aid course and it was really interesting, we covered a session on suicide and it was very emotional and incredibly sad.  Sending hugs  

Kat, you're sounding on top form which is great.  I so want one of those chords!!    Absolutely not inappropriate at all to use that phrase, if anything I'm sure that was the censored version?! So very politely put.

Well, AFM, what can I say?!  It was a very emotional session this morning and I cried a lot!  It appears (given my unexpected tears) that I'm still parked in the 'lets do a FET' camp, whereas DH is still very much in the 'lets stop all tx' camp.  Impossible to move on from this without one of us having to back down - and each of those scenarios makes me feel very uncomfortable.  I hate the fact I'd be having to 'force' DH into something he really doesn't want, but also hate the thought of turning our backs on our 3 frozen embryos.  What a bloody awful situation to be in!!  On the plus side our counsellor said she could see we had a very strong relationship and that we are "an amazing couple" (not quite sure what she meant by that?! lol).  Anyway, I'm now back home mulling it all over but DH had to go back to work.  I think the long and short of it is that we may be heading towards a FET but I can't be certain, guess more chat is needed with DH (oh the joy   ) but if we do anything at all the embryos are our last chance, i.e. no more fresh cycles (either with my own or donor egg), no adoption and no to surrogacy.  So by the end of this year at the latest, that's it, over and done with.  At least I'll be out of this hellish limbo land that I'm currently in, not knowing which path I'm taking.  I feel exhausted and emotionally drained now.

Janie, I'm really pleased to hear the DH has finally agreed to go to the session with you next week.  Lots and lots of luck.  I did laugh at your "flying f***" comment lol!  I'm the same, I don't really want a 'career' just something that gives me job satisfaction and something worthwhile.

Right, time for lunch me thinks!  Food always makes things better - even if it is only temporary  

Big hello to everyone.  Will chat more later.  Oh!  By the way, I'm finally off to Zumba this eve!  That should be an experience!!

xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hello ladies,

Sorry I haven't been around.  Busy trying to fill my last days of retirement(!) with pleasure!  Reality is paperwork which comes with selling a house and a huge feeling of tiredness despite achieving nothing most days.  But my therapist used to say I should do more 'pointless things for me', so I've tried sorting out my wardrobe so I can fill it again on Friday with some new clothes.

Things between me and hubby have been exceptionally good of late.  We had a bit of a wild night out a few weeks back, got 'sauced' and DH admitted he only wants me in his life, baby or not.  The fact he couldn't remember saying this the morning after made no difference  I loved him for saying it.  And I have started to believe him again.  

New job starts Monday.  Spoke to my 'assigned buddy' this afternoon.  All sounds a bit scary with words like 'vision', 'not wanting you to run out the door', 'a tough few months ahead' but it might be the distraction I need.  And it was good in that I was worried my opinion wouldn't count for anything, but they appear to want my ideas.  Which is great.  Apparently, I'm front end and there is a chap who is back end.  No smutty comments please, but it's been making me giggle ever since....  I'm nervous and I hope it's just healthy nerves - please, please!!

Had a nice weekend walking too - lots of miles but my legs / achilles are hurting now which is a shame.  So rested them yesterday.  And also met up with some old schoolfriends who I hadn't seen for 21 years on Tuesday.  Told them in the end about my IF, they were sooo lovely about it.  One of them said life is neither good nor bad whether you have children or not, life is there to be lived and there are plenty of options on both sides.  He looked genuinely sorry about my situation in a caring way.  I felt really touched.

A few personals:
Kat - oh my, what have I missed??!  Hope you are ok, have the cake cord installed and ear plugs to drown out the snorers.  Most of all I'm glad you have your op on the way - good luck this week with it x

Nosilab - sounds like you had a good session with both of you airing your view.  Sometimes it's so hard to be honest in these situations but I think it's worth the agony to move forward in whatever form that will take.  You are a brave lady and I am sure you will come to a good compromise with DH that you can both be positive about.  Sounds like your relationship is stronger than you think x

Jen - that's terrible news, so sad.  I know what you mean about some people not treating such news with delicacy.  A friend of mine was 'gossiping' about another colleagues stillbirth and I found that really hard to not be very angry about.  Suicide leads to too much idle speculation and sometimes people just don't seem get it that suicide is not the easy option and the person must have been in a vulnerable state.  Often these victims are the sweetest people amongst us, just not able to deal with their inner turmoil for many different reasons and social pressures x

JBT - swimsuits - tailor made - take me to the shop please!!!  Bet you look glam lady! x

Janie - hope you are feeling better after being ill last week.  How's everything going? x

Might not be on again for a week or so, got lots on over the next few days - but I'll probably be lurking a bit from time to time (when I'm not shopping or sat in inductions or meetings)!!!!

Lots of love MrsP xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsP - lots of luck for Monday. I reckon this new challenge is just what you need to help turn a few corners xxx
Nosilab - I guess those tears needed to come out xxx. One of the hard things is that there is just no compromise in tx, you just can't meet half way can you. Your DH has his closure and so probably the only thing he can do us allow you to get your closure by going for FET. I hope now you've talked, it'll be easier to carry on with talking do you can get to the end.
Jen - I always wish that people who don't understand suicide would just say nothing at all instead if trying to put themselves in shoes they clearly have no idea about. All you can do is ignore the ignorant and remember your friend as the brave man he clearly was to have put himself through so much suffering that his only way out was to die. Very sad.

My chirpyness was short lived when I was told they may not operate after all. Poor DH new nothing about it until he saw me 4 hours later during which time I hadn't stopped crying and he found me hiding in the corner :-( I wasn't looking my most attractive. I had a big squeeze so don't feel the need to cry any longer. It's a busy night with visitors and noise and I'm finding it all a little overwhelming so I need to turn to my crazy meds which means you'll not get much news from me for a while .......... not legible news anyway ;-) So happy weekends all of you and catch up soon. Thanks again for the bedside vigilance xxx

Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat: that's crazy! why won't they do the surgery? Cord for cake, classic! sound like you need some ear plugs!

Just passing through to see how everyone was doing. Nosilab I am glad you had a productive session. Jen so sorry to hear about your friend, some people need to just not say anything.

Write again later, actually busy at work


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

My my ladies, I take my eye off the ball for 5 mins and I've missed all manner of chat!

Jen - really sorry to hear about your friend. I can only echo what the others have said and that I wish people realised that how inappropriate gossip is at such times. A friend of mind was really struggling earlier in the year - thankfully not with such a sad outcome, but I couldn't believe how small minded and judgmental people were about it. Sometimes I find people really depressing. I hope you're doing OK. That's great that you've done some interesting volunteering... I'm only really starting to doing that just now... trying to figure out whether I really do want to work with people (which obviously is still quite a question mark given my comments above).

Kat - I have everything crossed that you will get your op this week. I'm counting on it. I want to come out to Norway to play sometime and I need you well for that! I'm glad DH gave you the real hug that you needed but know that we're all here with the virtual replacements. Take it easy, get some sleep and do what you need to do and let us know how you're doing when you can. So interesting to hear about your HT ideas. You inspired me to go back on and look at the Thrive courses again today. I surfed around a bit and found an online course which I'm going to do for now... Interesting that nothing of that sort in Norway, I'd have thought the Scandinavians would have been all over it. A place with outhouses and greenhouses sounds amazing. I'd love that and I often think that could be a really lovely childfree alternative lifestyle... but quick shock back to reality... if I give up my job to retrain we are going to be B-R-O-K-E for a while. But you never know. We're lucky to live in the countryside but in a tiny wee cottage with an even tinier garden... but thankfully I have an allotment to keep me sane! I have to decide by June whether to apply to do Occupational Therapy - it's a huge step. I need the IF thing fully resolved by then...

Nosilab... I really feel for you so much right now. It's so tough. As Kat said, there just isn't a compromise and I totally feel that myself. I hope you can keep talking... but then again... if you're anything like us it sometimes feels like what else is there to be said? I guess you need to give it a little more time before committing one way or another. I know what you are saying about the limboland though. Arggh, I have so much I'd like to chat to you about on this subject but DH is hassling me to shut down so we can eat so I'm going to have to save it for another day.

Mrs P - lovely to hear from you and absolutely BRILLIANT that you and DH are feeling close. Really good luck for starting your job - I hope it goes well and is just the challenge you need right now. Again, wish I had time to say more. Your friend sounds like he was really sweet, sometimes you just get lovely moments with people like that, and it doesn't have to people that you know well. Big hug.. you're doing great... you go girl xxx

JBT - Easter getting closer.... I bet you can hear the waves crashing already... it's snowing here.... 

love to you all... more when I'm not being hassled.

Janie xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat thinking of you... lots of hugs

You know ladies I have thought of doing some kind of psychology course but DH says i'll take each case too personally and I wouldn't be able to handle it. I secretly think he's right! But you know I truly want to start a support group here at our clinic for all the IF ladies... I think even like a sponsor programme, like our FF group locally it doesn't even have to be face to face. I am going to ask my doctor what he thinks although when I spoke to him about it before he doesn't think I can handle it... he thinks I could handle it of I succeed and have a baby then I should consider it, but I don't know if that will ever happen and I think it is a necessity. If I had that when I was first started this journey I think I would be a little better off... 

Anyway it's just been really tough we IF, in law, work, trying to retool... Yes Janie Easter is around the corner and boy am I looking forward to it... just took another look at the hot cross bun recipe nah our Easter bun is dark and dense you can google "jamaican easter bun with stout" anyway it's so yummy with nice white cheese. 

Night all, hugs to everyone


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - HT more common in Sweden. Norway is a bit backward. It was the Thrive online course I was going to do, the one with a couple of residential parts too. J decided it would be fun even if I didn't take it further.

JBT - I think an online support group will be good but I think face to face support might take more out if you than you think. You need to heal yourself first before expending too much energy on others. 

Apparently crying for 12 hours is an indication that surgery may be needed. The consultant woke me this morning at 7 to tell me she'll operate tomorrow and she is lovely. Then she got worried that I might get bumped tomorrow and is worried I'm a bit unstable now so my op is in a couple of hours!!!!!

Speak when I'm back on planet earth again.
Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat - I can't believe how much you've been messed about over this op, I guess the most important thing is that it is now happening and that this will hopefully be the first step to you getting your life back. It must feel to be happening really quickly but the plus side of that is less time to feel anxious about the op. We'll all be thinking of you, and waiting with virtual grapes (or cake if you prefer!) when you wake up


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## Jess81 (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Girls, 
Sorry I have been a bit AWOL but I’ve found the last couple of weeks a bit difficult! I managed to get another apt with the cons yesterday and it was much more positive then the last one! Soooo I have a bit of an update for you all! 
He has agreed to request funding through oxford PCT for the CGH testing as it would be £3000 and we just can’t afford it, so if we get it we will have it done and if not we won’t! 
DH’s tests have mostly come back and they are all clear so that’s good news! 
He has agreed to do a hysto on me…. Finally!! After asking for one for the last 2 years he has finally given in! 
Whilst doing the hysto he is going to do a endo scratch too! 
He’s run some more bloods on me so we have to wait and see what they come back like, I told him I had thyroid done in the past and that I’m on thyroxine but he said he wants to dig a but deeper into it. 
DH asked that if his final test comes back ok does that mean we don’t have to think about a donor and he said yes so DH is now happy  

Hi to everyone.
Jess xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Big hug Nosilab, I know the tears are draining and painful but I suspect if you hadn't been upset in your session it would have been because you hadn't felt able to be honest. It's an awful situation to be in, no-one wants to feel they are strong-arming their partners into having children, nor do we want to give up on that dream before we feel ready (and that can be such a moving goalpost). There are so many compromises along the way and it's important to talk about what they are and how they make you feel to avoid building resentment. It's a real positive that your counsellor recognised the strength you have as a couple, and now that you've had the session and the cards are on the table it will hopefully be a bit easier to pick them up again and talk to your DH about what your next steps might be.

Sometimes I feel as though making plans for the future and exploring options for a possible career change are signs that I've 'given up' on the possibility of having a child. How many of us have stayed in jobs 'just in case'? It somehow feels wrong to now break away from that yet there is no reason why the two strands can't be explored; we are all masters of multi-tasking aren't we?! 

MrsP - lovely to see you  , and to hear you and DH are doing great. I think we all need a wild night out once in a while, even if we can't remember the details the next day (sometimes that's a bonus!). I love what your friend said, too often people rush to change the subject or make light of it so to give such a considered response was refreshing to say the least. It's another life affirming statement that I know I'll come back to.

JBT - I hear you on the possibility of taking cases too personally. Although I suspect that would be part of the training it must be really hard not to become emotionally invested in that kind of job. Whilst our experiences no doubt give us empathy for others I know I would have to work hard to resolve my own needs before trying to help others. I like the idea of an internet support group though, that would give you the distance you might need to care for yourself.

Janie - hi there, we've had a smattering of snow too but it's disappearing quickly.

Thanks everyone for your kind words re my friend. I think a lot of the judgement from people comes partly from fear and need to convince themselves that they could never feel that way. At least that's what I keep telling myself - as Janie quite rightly says, the alternative is just depressing.

Righto, off to get a hit of endorphins at the gym, I've chocolate in my drawer as plan B  

Jen


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Thinking of you Kat!  Hope all goes well and thank goodness someone has finally taken you seriously!  I'm hoping (in the nicest way) that you are currently in that operating theatre as we speak?!

Janie, I'd love to chat to you more about all of this as I think we're in very similar situations - be interested to hear more when you have more time    Btw, I also liked like what you're friend said to you, so much so that I've written it down to add to my long list of inspirational quotes!

Great news Jess, have everything crossed for you both.

Jen, thanks for your lovely message.  Yes I totally agree, I too feel like I've kind of 'given up' on tx as I've started to explore new jobs as like you (and most people probably) I put everything on hold 'just in case'.  But you're right, there is no reason why both can't be explored.

Afm, lots more tears again this morning at work.  Two very lovely friends sat and chatted to me for ages about it all though (behind a locked office door so that we couldn't be interupted).  Feel very low and tearful again today, not sure what direction I should (or want to) be taking.  I feel so so confused about everything    I just don't want this 'mood' to be hanging over me and DH over the Easter hols, I want us to be able to enjoy ourselves and have fun but at the moment I don't feel I'm able to do that.  Guess I just need some thinking time to get my head around it all again?!  Anyway, I'm in danger of rambling on here about the same old same old, so will sign off for now.

xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning Ladies well my brother and family arrived safely in your country! You are 5 hours ahead of me so I know I probably won't speak to them today but will try and catch them tomorrow...

Kat: I am super happy that they have finally seen the light and by now you are in surgery on your way to a pain free future...  When you awake we will be here to give you the support you need for recovery!

Nosilab: So sorry you are feeling low this morning, at least you had 2 lovely friends to talk to you... ramble on sometimes we need to do that. I really hope you can enjoy the Easter holidays with DH sometimes we just need to escape to escape, if that makes sense. It is very hard to commit to a decision such as the one we have to make 

Gotta run now at work


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Ramble away Nosilab, sometimes we need to go over and over the same ground and it's fine to do that here. In any case it's usually the so-called rambly posts on here prove to be the most inspiring, or the ones that we all relate to the easiest. 

Be gentle with yourself, as much as you want to be on good form for Easter you don't really need the added pressure to 'perform' at the minute. It might not feel like it just now but there will be plenty of times in the future when you and DH have fun and enjoy yourself, at the minute you could both probably do with a bit of TLC. Is there anything you could plan to do together that might give you that? You may end up having fun in the process but if you don't, that's okay. Me and DH are planning (and by that I mean I'm planning and DH has no idea, yet!) to go for a couple of walks, go to a favourite old bookshop (it's in an old station and has sofas in front of an open fire  ), have a DVD night etc etc. I feel like we need time to reconnect a bit at the minute and although part of me feels like we should be going away or doing something different it's just not where I am at the minute.

Hugs to all  

Jen xx (who really ought to be doing more work but needs to eat the chocolate first  )


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies, attempting to write this  on phone on bus on way home. 

Kat, what a rollercoaster you've had this last week. So hoping that the next time you write you can report a successful op. We're all rooting for you.  

jess, I'm so glad you're getting somewhere with the docs. I feel quite removed from the research stage of treatment just now... I guess the only decision I have left is whether to go through with this last round or walk away. I have no motivation to do any more research or fight any more battles re hysteroscopies etc. I suspect it may be the same for some of the other ladies on this thread. But I certainly well understand the frustrations. Fingers crossed your pct come good. 

It's weird that so many of us are thinking about career changes. Actually I guess it's not that weird and really about fulfillment. I guess I might feel less need to change what I did if i had a child. Or at leaat accepting of it as a necessay compromise. But if i'm not going to be a mum then I need to find the meaning elsewhere...

Oh I can't get into a flow on damn phone. I give up!... More later... Xx


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Kat, I hope everything's going OK for you.   I'm glad you're having the operation done and the doctors aren't messing you about anymore.

Take care,

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

No meaningfull words but i've just caught up a bit. Seems some big warm squeezes are in order.

Nosilab - better out than in for those tears and sound like you have a couple of lovely friends there.
Jess - hugs to you too. It sounds like you are making some progress xxx
Jen - hope the chocolate gave you the boost you needed. I doubt the gym was anywhere near so effektive.
Janie - i think changing careers is definitely something to do with finding a place in society. There must be a role for us out there that gives us reason to get up in the morning.

Op done. Much less pain today. Was clearly huge pain at sometime after op as I vaguely remember screaming loudly and lots of people holding me down. I also have swollen lip which I am hoping is from me biting it rather than nurses punching me ;-) Off my face on morphine due to mix up and overdose ...... I can highly recommend it ;-)

Thanks for all being there are letting me cry, you probably don't realise quite how important you have all been this last 2 weeks. Thank you from the bottom if my heart xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh and it appears snore volume is proportional to fart volume!!!! Seriously, I've never heard (or smelt) anything like it!!!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Kat, you really do know how to make me laugh - when I'm feeling down I just have to read your posts and I'm laughing    Just laughed out loud at the swollen lip/nurses punching comment, and the farting - that's brightened up my Friday 

I'm sooooo pleased the op is all done, phew at last!!  Here's hoping for a very speedy recovery, sending you some virtual 'get well soon' flowers  

Jen, I think I'd much rather opt for the chocolate than the gym!  Hope it did the trick?!  I like your suggestions of nice things to do over the Easter break, I think I might copy you with the walk and DVD night.  That book shop sounds fab!

Thank you JBT, yes I am lucky to have some very good, supportive friends.  Don't know how I would have got through with out them really.  How are you feeling at the moment?

Janie, I think you're so right, the change in job/career is about the need to change focus and that if we can't be mums then we need to find 'meaning' and direction elsewhere.

Hi to everyone (inc. Rowan) hope you're all doing ok.  Thank goodness it's Friday.  Out to lunch today with a couple of friends, and then staying overnight at another friends tomorrow night - which will include a lot of natter, fish and chips and a glass or 2 of wine!

xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Nosilab - mmmmmm.... fish and chips!
Jen - mmmmmm.... chocolate!!
Kat - farts?  Not mmmmmm!

Thank the lord it's Friday!!  My last one before work starts - quite excited now. Less excited that my online season ticket purchase has vanished without trace... I have no idea what is going on!! So I've contacted the train company and hoping for an answer 'within 24 hrs'.

Happy weekend everyone xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi Ladies. Think this is probably the right place for me to start to post now. My info is in signature, if you want to read. Had a tough time and not sure what to do. Only had one tx of IVF (funded) but since partner left me, why should my dream of having a child be taken away?? Its a real tough one to contemplate, as took overdose last thursday and suffering from depression now, so on anti dep tablets( and sleeping tablets)
I have cancelled my follow up as don't feel ready yet. (clinic aware of partner leaving) so its going it alone now or just maybe say 'it was never meant to be' and enough is enough. Can i really go through all this again? It wont matter alone, as partner didnt support me really first time. I didnt find the drugs the bad bit, it was the mc. Sounds crazy, but it was getting the BFP and not BFN. For some ridiculous reason, i never thought that i would mc, so i wasn't prepared for that. 
Im signed of work and if ready, i will be back April 1st.
I have been on singles thread but wonder what response i may get from YOU ladies?? 
 to all xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi Tippytoes

My heart goes out to you, you've had to try and cope with more than anyone should ever have to. Do you have much support at the minute? Quite a few of us on here have had (or are having) counselling and I think we'd all agree it's been helpful, and at times literally lifesaving. 

Whilst I've never achieved a BFP I can see why that followed by a mc would be so incredibly hard, and it's probably far too early to be trying to think about making any decisions. There's far too much for you to get your head round and you need to give yourself time.

I would really hope that if your GP has offered AD's and sleeping tablets that they have also offered you counselling? I know from my own experience, and from that of other ladies on here, that it feels scary and that we all wonder how it can possibly make a difference but it can, grab whatever help is offered. 

Jen


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello Tippytoes

I really can't reiterate enough what Jen has said.  Wow, what a lot you've had to deal with on top of needing tx.  Please be very gentle on yourself and don't be harsh on yourself if you're not feeling up to making a decision at the moment - as you quite rightly say, why should you give up on your dream, it's yours for the taking.  But maybe just give yourself a bit of time and breathing space to try and come to terms with everything.  As Jen says, did your GP offer any form of support/counselling, or has your clinic?  I really hope so.

 xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks ladies. Yes. Have counselling at clinic.been once last week , but canncelled yesterday as was having a terrible day with bleeding again and rearranged for Tuesday next week. Xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat happy to hear from you, always able to put a smile on my face too!

Tippy toe so so sorry to hear you are going through all this i will write laterwhen i have more time . I just wanted to say hi and give you virtual hugs. More later.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Just popping in with a quick hello to you all. I'm half a bottle of red down with no intention of stopping... and no good to anyone in terms of a coherent response.

Somehow I managed to miss the earlier posts so I've only just seen that you've had your surgery Kat - that's brilliant news! Enjoy that morphine while it lasts. Sounds like there are other gases that can knock you out when that runs out! Fingers crossed that's you on the road to recovery now... any ideas how long it will be until you're up and about? 

Tippy toes, so sorry to read your posts. You've really had a hard time and I agree with the other girls that you just need to take your time just now and work through the grief. Don't put yourself under too much pressure to make decisions just now. You're clearly still in the very physical stages of recovery so be kind to yourself. Don't rush back to work either, under the circumstances, 1st April really not that far off. Don't underestimate what you have been through.  

Nosilab, I hope you manage a few laughs with your friends along with those fish and chips. It sounds like you have great friends. xxx We have some 'talking' to do... I just need a bit of time to settle down with the laptop. DH and I haven't talked about the IVF stuff all week and yet it goes around and around in my head. I read a load of hippy stuff about listening to your inner voice... I just need to learn to quieten down my head! I hope you're doing OK. I've been thinking about you a lot. 

Mrs P - if I don't get on here again before, then best of luck for Monday.... knock 'em dead (and knock the rail company dead too if they don't sort out your ticket).

Jen - your posts are always so lovely and gentle and wise.  

JBT - how are you doing hon? When are you off?!!!

SET, Jess and everyone else, have a good weekend.

Janie xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Ok I am settled in front of the computer and ready to give a proper response to our new friend tippytoes. My dear as the other more wise ladies have said, be gentle and kind to yourself it is early days yet and you need time to heal. Don't rush back to work unless that is a good distraction for you then maybe you could go for a few hours a day? You have time to make decisions... good luck with your counselling sessions and we are here for you when you need to vent or just talk out load...

Night with friends nice Nosilab enjoy your fish n chips

Janie I am about to get down into a bottle of rum myself lady, no wine for me tonight... 

Kat you must be resting and enjoying a pain free day... do you know how long you will be in the hospital? 

Mrs P i hope you sort your ticket out. Are you all ready for Monday? Btw how did the shopping go?

Jess and Jen how are? 

AFM I am so so and we aff to Negril on Good Friday till Easter Sunday. have a great weekend ladies, not planning to do much this weekend, of hubby and I are going to a Soca party tomorrow night. I am working on re doing my resume as my HR friend suggested and we are to talk again next week. In the meantime I sent my current resume to a friend of mine who owns his own company actually a few companies and he says if looks fine and should at least get me an interview but it hasn't so he says he will see what is out there and pass it on if he hears of anything.

Night ladies


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

How are you doing today Kat?  Hope you're ok x

Janie, hope you enjoyed that bottle of red wine and that you're not suffering too much today??  I intend to enjoy mine this eve    Look forward to our 'proper chat' soon when you have more time with the laptop.  DH and I haven't talked anymore either since our appt on Wednesday.  I just keep thinking what more is there to say?!  I guess we ought to have another chat before Easter but I honestly don't know what to say to him.  I guess like Jen said, I don't really need the added pressure right now so maybe I'll leave it for a couple of weeks.  I'm like you though (I'm sure we are all the same) that even when it's not talked about it doesn't go away, it's still there running around in my head - going in all directions.  It's funny that you mention your inner voice and switching it off, because I'm currently reading the 'Feel The Fear And Do It Anyway' book (don't laugh!), and the chapter I read only yesterday was talking about our internal Chatterbox, and the fact that most of us don't realise it's chatting away to us all the time in the background, saying mainly negative things.  So it's about learning to replace the negative chatter with more positive chat, therefore taking back control.  Easier said than done though!  (See, there's a bit of negativity right away!!   )

JBT, what is a Soca party?  Whatever it is I hope you both have a lovely time.

How are you doing Tippytoes?  Take things easy.

Afm, not feeling quite as tearful today, although we have just had a very tragic event within the family but not all that easy to talk about on the public forum.  So without going into too much detail, the family lost a baby on Wednesday, which was obviously the same day as our appt, so a very traumatic and emotional day all 'round.  I'm going to write the card in a mo, what the heck do you say without it coming across as meaningless?!  Nothing can fill their void right now.  But actually, I found a lovely little verse so I will use that, and just keep my own words to a minimum I think as nothing I can say will take away their pain.

Anyway, on a more positive note hello to the lovely Jen, Set, MrsP (not long now, exciting!), Jess, Rowan and anyone else that I may have missed.  Hope you all have a lovely weekend.

xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Just another quickie from me - wanted to give Tippytoes a virtual hug  and I second, third and fourth all the advice given so far.  There are lots of things available to help you thru this tough time, including us ladies here.  But take it easy, at your own pace as feeling overwhelmed by life is pretty common too.  Try not to panic if that happens - I was the queen of panicking about panicking.. believe me!

JBT - sounds like you have nice plans for Easter.  Regards jobs, I tried to approach it as a numbers game, but I reckon I got about 20 non-responses and only 2 interviews!  Keep trying, you are right to revisit your resume, I kept doing that as I learnt along the way (despite getting a book on the damn thing and it not being a 100% success rate lol).  I'm sure that something will come up.  And balance the job hunting with some treats - I always had one day I could have 'off' during the week to do something for me - like visiting a friend or something.  Sounds cheesy but it kept me sane!!

Thanks for the good wishes for Monday.  Shopping was dire with a capital D.  I need winter clothes given the weather, and everywhere has the spring collections in!! Not good.  So trekking in (literally) to do the rounds again.

Lots of love to Jen, Janie, Kat and anyone else I have missed!  xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just popping in between Pilates and brownie-making (why does that sound so wrong in my head? I'm afraid my sense of humour does sometimes dip its toe in the toilet...)

Nosilab - I'm sorry to hear you're having to deal with a family tragedy on top of an already tough week. It often feels like life throws multiple curveballs all at once doesn't it? I agree it can be hard to know what  to say to someone who is dealing with something so difficult but if you've found a verse that has meaning I think that's a good idea.

How was the red wine Janie? A great way to start the weekend   How are you doing generally?

Good luck with the shopping MrsP. I hate shopping with a passion (though do like to get new clothes). It's blowing a gale here today so it would take the promise of regular coffee and cake stops to get me to the shops, I hope you have a successful trip though, having a new outfit for work will help keep your confidence levels up  

Kat - hope you're doing ok and you're not in too much pain post-op...

Tippytoes - hang in there, it must be so hard to see past where you are right now and I certainly won't patronise by telling you everything will be ok, but things will change. I'm thinking of you and hop that coming here brings a feeling of support and comfort (and if nothing else a temporary distraction).

Having to cut this short, need to go and pick up some ingredients - the brownies are for a 4T party later on (40th tea party where the tea is replaced by teapots of cocktail, apparently!) so I can't bail on making them.

Hugs to all  

Jen xx

Have lovely weekends ladies


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

You ladies are so kind and i am so grateful for your support. I had a friend around this afternoon and made me feel alot better, but i miss her now she has gone. 
I had option to stay at her place after she left, but wanted to stay here with George and my cat.
I dont feel too bad at moment. 
I wish i could be more help to rest of you lovely ladies xxxx


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Kat, how are you doing post op? When will you be leaving hospital, do you know? I hope they have the post op pain under control and you feel OK. 
Nosilab, thanks for the welcome. I'm sorry to keep crashing this thread but Kat's obviously not up to posting on more than one thread at the moment and we've chatted quite a lot on the Moving On board. I'm sorry to hear about your family's situation, too. Words are always so difficult at these times. 
Tippytoes, so sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes, cats can be the best company, I know, I have three. It's trite, I know but try taking it one day at a time and look after yourself. Sometimes that's all anyone can do, just get through things a day, or even a minute at a time. I hope the counselling helps a little bit. 
As for me, I'm in the position where I should be moving on but I can't, yet. We've tried virtually everything, including adoption and surrogacy (in this country) and got nowhere. The only thing we haven't tried is IVF and that's because we don't have much money, only enough for one go and I have so many health issues that I just can't see it working. Every time the period's a bit late, like last month, there's that tiny glimmer of hope and then I'm back to square one, again.
Moonshadow, the 4T party sounds great!
Hope you're all having great weekends.

Rowanxx

Rowanxx


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## squirrel2010 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hello lovely ladies (some of you I know, ALL of you I think of behind the scenes as I read through your posts xx)

Just a quick message from the lovely Kat - she is safely home, resting up and she is a finding it a bit of a struggle emotionally - so she will be back very soon and sends love to you all xx

Just from me - i am going to confess to lurking in the background, reading about you and your wonderful advice and friendship and support to each other. In fact, Kat was the one who pointed out this thread when I was feeling very very low. Just a chance to wish you all the very best, and each of you has said something that has helped me - whilst I have been reading and quiet! Thank you xx

Love Squirrel xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks for the update on Kat Squirrel I have been thinking about her a lot... please let her know we are here when she is back I miss her words of encouragement too... 

Nosilab Soca is a type of Trinidadian music, originated there for their carnival which is every year in February we have "stolen" the carnival idea and it starts the week of Easter Sunday for one week ending in a big costume parade... the night was ok they had a big popular band I was tired and not really in the mood... feeling very emotional happens every month.. also have a migraine but I committed to it as we bought the tickets already and hubby was looking forward to it... Also very sorry to hear about your family's tragedy keep strong i know it must be tough for you...

Mrs P I do have a nice weekend planned and i can't wait... The job hunt sure does play on your confidence level but I am keeping the faith and being hopeful... 

anyway i was just making a quick check, my head hurts so I will check back tomorrow...


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Squirrel, thanks so much for the update on Kat, and for passing her message on.  We're all wishing her well and a very speedy recovery.  Look forward to seeing her back soon.

The Soca party sounds really fun JBT!  Bet there is a real fun atmosphere with the Trinidadian music.  Shame you were feeling poorly though, with your migraine.  Hope you're feeling better soon.

Thanks Jen, Rowan and JBT for your kind thoughts and words about the family baby.  Writing the card (with the lovely verse) took my breath away a bit, I had to really hold the tears back.

MrsP, good luck for today, hope it all goes well.

Jen, I did laugh at your 'toilet humour'    I'm very much like that too, so are the girls I work with - we can be so silly sometimes but it makes us giggle!  I love love LOVE choc brownies!  Maybe I'll make some over Easter.

Well, a 2 day week for me (thank goodness!), so only today and tomorrow to struggle through and then I'm free until the 8th April - yippee!!  I enjoyed my weekend with friends, plus the fish, chips and wine.  But when I got back home last night I started feeling really low again, and today.  I really need something to change now as I hate this constant feeling.  I just don't know how to go about 'making it better'?!  Anyway, don't want to end on too much of a downer, so wishing you all a happy Monday and speak soon.

xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just wanted to say thanks for the update on Kat squirrel, we're all thinking of her and hope she feels well enough to come back soon.

The Soca party does sound fun JBT, I'm imagining lots of bright costumes and loud music, probably not the best combination for a migraine though   I hope you're feeling better today. I don't know if you've ever  tried acupuncture for migraines, my mum used to suffer really badly and after trying lots of different drugs etc tried acupuncture in desperation, that was 20 years ago and she rarely suffers from them now. Just a thought.

Hi Rowan - don't apologise for crashing the thread, you're very welcome! It sounds like you're in a really difficult position. As for that hope every month - yup, me too. Even though we know the chances of us conceiving naturally is highly unlikely it doesn't stop me feeling that lurch of disappointment each month (even more crazy is the fact my husband is often away with work for stretches so it would literally be an immaculate conception!  )

Nosilab - try not to give yourself a hard time, you're still processing a lot and trying to find a way forward for you and DH. Perhaps question how accurate is it that the feeling of being low is constant? I'm certainly not trying to minimise how you feel as you've every reason for feeling low but it sounds like you had a good weekend, that perhaps that low feeling was less, or even temporarily absent, for a time. Sometimes when we feel low we focus on that and forget that yesterday we laughed, or felt happy. I read a great quote the other day which I can't remember but will attempt to paraphrase - a happy life is just a string of happy moments but sometimes we don't allow the happy moments in our pursuit of a happy life. I guess I'm maybe just challenging your perspective a little, that whilst you do feel low today it doesn't mean that it is constant state. I really hope this is coming across in the right way  

MrsP - good luck today, go get 'em!

Hugs to all   

Jen (who is desperately trying to ignore the chocolate brownies she brought in after making far too many at the weekend!)


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning Ladies:

Having a really tough morning, migraine still lurking... 

Jen you are totally right lots of loud music and beautiful and colourful costumes, not a good combo for a migraine! As for acupuncture well I tried it once but it was for ivf purposes and the person I went to was a quack for wants of a nice word! These migraines are hormonal i think I get it every month when my period comes   just another reminder of my bodies failure to give me a family     It's very difficult every month at this time as I still continue to pray that just one month it won't come   even though I know it will never happen certainly not naturally, now that would be immaculate conception... I can't describe how I feel right now it is still hard for me to comes to terms with this whole IF thing... I try I really do and then to come to terms with the failures of IVF and maybe even the fact that it"s the end of the road, unless finances get better... Also dealing with FIL living with us and his mental and physical state, work and lack of disposable income   It can all just be too much! oh boy when I type it all i sound truly pathetic

So sorry to put a damper on this Monday morning, I love brownies too and make them all the time, I like to put coffee in mine with walnuts yummy..

We barbecued last night some ribs and garlic bread with a black bean and corn pasta salad it was very nice... it's been really hot here! While I see it snowed there, my brother's kids were so happy to see snow for the first time   

Nosilab good for you nice short week...

Kat hi love, hope you are doing well and on the road to a speedy recovery...

What are the Easter plans ladies, would love to hear all the exciting adventures ahead


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies

Finally a little chance to catch up... I've been thinking about this thread all day and writing posts in my head (which obviously were much better constructed than this one will be)...

Kat - if you're reading, then big hug, I really hope things are going your way and you're getting well looked after and recovering well. As all the girls have said, we're thinking of you and miss your excellent chat.. take your time though, we'll keep your seat warm. xx Squirrel - thanks for keeping us updated. 

JBT - I hope your migraine is loosening it's grip. I've never really experienced that but it sounds awful. I totally know how you feel about not being in the mood for what should be a really fun happy event - I feel that all the time these days. There just always seems to be an underlying sadness that I can't quite shake off. I'm not depressed as such, I just find it hard to be truly happy in a kind of care-free way if you know what I mean? I guess maybe don't put too much pressure on yourself. By the way, I really want to come and be a guest at your house some time - you sound like quite the chef!  

Jen - you get the words of wisdom prize for the day. I thought a lot about what you said about missing the moments of happiness when we are so busy pursuing a happy life. That makes so much sense to me and something I am pondering on. I guess it relates to mindfulness (which I still haven't really read much more about since when I last mentioned it) but there is surely a message in there about noticing the happy moments. I sometimes think that the whole of the last couple of years have been a nightmare. But in actual fact if I was to look through photos I would see lots of lovely moments that DH and I have shared. I guess it feels like a long time since I have had any really big belly laughs.. you know, the kind of carefree abandon that I mentioned above. Anyway, I hope you're doing OK at the moment... am thinking of you..  

Mrs P - how did it go today? Are you enjoying a big glass of red to celebrate your first day. I hope you managed to get yourself suited and booted and didn't have to spend too long at the shops. I hate shopping... I'm like a man in that respect!

Rowan - ditto the other girls, you're not crashing! I have been following the moving on thread for some time but I just don't like to post because.. well I'm not 100% there yet.

Tippy-toes - how are you doing honey? I hope that day-by-day things are getting a little bit more bearable... it still is very early days and you've been through so much. I'm glad you had some company... I agree with Rowan though, animals can be great therapy. They don't make judgements and say stupid things and are always there for a cuddle. Big hugs xxx

And Nosilab... last but definitely not least... how are you doing? I was really sorry to hear about the loss in your family - that's so sad. You sound like a really thoughtful lady and I'm sure you will have found some beautiful words. 
Are you and DH any closer to making a decision about whether to do FET? Have you talked about it any more?  I can totally empathise with you about the constant feeling. I'm just so exhausted from thinking about it 24-7. I don't work on Mondays and I was trying to explain to DH earlier about how the day has been for me... took the dog for a walk (whilst thinking about it), went to the allotment  (whilst thinking about it), did some shopping  (whilst thinking about it), did some jobs in the house  (whilst thinking about it). And I desperately want to make a decision that I feel happy with and move on. So I can think about other things and start to plan my happy childfree life. So I can laugh wholeheartedly again. And yet I can't seem to shift this damn fear of regret. Are you planning to have any more counselling? It's just so impossible isn't it? I know what you mean about not wanting to force your DH to do this. It's not as if we are forcing them to accompany us to a wedding they don't want to go to is it? It's totally life-changing stuff. Have you managed to sort out how you really feel about it deep-down for yourself? If DH was more up for it... would that be a total green flag for you? Or do you have your own reservations still? 

We were away visiting friends this week. They have a wee boy. Nice enough weekend but can't help but conclude that it's just not that much fun being childfree and hanging out with families. My friends were constantly distracted. It just leaves me feeling again that if we don't have children then it's time to carve out a new life. I'm not saying I would ditch my old friends, but I need to find people who are more available to me. I have some great childfree friends too so it's not all lost. 

Janie xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi lovely ladies. Sending you all lots of virtual hugs. I have had a better day today . My mum came over last night and broke down blubbering like a baby. She is so worried about me, but has put things into perspective now. At the moment im going to try and get my life back on track and get back to work. Signed off til Monday. As for ivf alone.... I think im going to put it on the back burner for now. 
Well not much of a post. Just taken sleeping tablet and starting to kick in. Maybenext week. Will start swimming again and back to zumba. Im just dwelling on everything at home. Need something to occupy my mind. Definitely ..... Not another man. Nite all. Sleep well.
Lisa xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Lisa    isn't it great to have mothers around, well sometimes  

Janie you are welcome anytime... I hear what you are saying about having that underlying sadness, and just want to be happy! Migraine still lurking but i am ignoring it  

Mrs P how was today

Hi to everyone else will post better tomorrow...


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

This is going to be an almighty 'me' post. Indulge me? It's just the same old same old...

Why can't I just let go of this? I think I know why, it keeps coming back to the fear of regret. These are the facts...

- we've had 3 rounds of IVF, one with a fleeting BFP, so we're down but not out. Chances of success on round 4 are slim but I guess somewhere in my roots I have partially convinced myself that by having researched a different clinic who were going to try a different protocol, which I have a lot of faith in, they would make it work. I remember MrsP saying something similar...that by giving up her job and moving and changing clinic (?) it made you believe that it would work. I realise that the reality is likely quite different. 

- at the very most I could only tolerate this one last round. There has been a wholesale change in the way I feel about treatment. I have no desires to do any further research, 3 months ago I was previously thinking about 3 more rounds and was happy to consider donor eggs as our next option but now I know I don't have it in me. That's a big change. It's this one last go or nothing. 

- I pulled out of our 4th tx at the last minute because of the growing sense since January that I might be ready to walk away. I had felt unsure throughout the whole build-up. Surely I should have been more enthusiastic? The only motivation I had to continue was because I felt it would give me closure when it didn't work. But then I also had this innate sense that it might well work and that was freaking me out.

- it was freaking me out because... my DH has never wanted children, he was doing it for me, I think maybe at one point he was 50:50 about it but time has gone on and now I think it's more like 90:10 (against). I'm sure he would love the child and be a brilliant Dad.. but hey, I've heard child-rearing is pretty hard work, what if he doesn't just melt at the first sight of the baby and ends up resenting me for turning our simple but happy (well it was until we got into IVF hell) life upside down, what if things went wrong, what if the child had problems (I have read every article on maternal / paternal age and it doesn't help) and I was solely responsible for the decision, sure we'd cope but .... I have become obsessed with DH's age. He would be 44 when any baby was born. Plenty of Dads are older but then when I read about them they always seem to be 100% established in their careers, living mortgage free and in a position to just enjoy being a Dad. I don't know why I've suddenly become so obsessed with our ages, I wasn't bothered a year ago other than concerns about the success rate for my age.  We would be stuck in jobs we hate for the rest of our working lives, we live in a tiny little cottage that is already small for two and moving would mean moving out of the village we love. We would almost certainly be looking at an only child. I have focused on my childfree life and I can see it could be a happy one?

- that's a pretty long list... so why am I finding it impossible to close the door for good? I'm worried that I'm secretly repressing my true emotions because the chances of success are so slim. Self-protection, maybe? I'm also worried that I'm just taking on DH's concerns. If he was more behind it then would I be worrying about money so much? We'd make do, it would be OK. Plenty of people are way worse off and they cope. I guess I'm more inclined to just 'cope' than DH because I can see the positives of having a baby. Over the last couple of years I have totally backed away from friends who have been pregnant or those with new babies - it was too painful. So I never have to hold a baby /  listen to pregnancy chat. I still can't face the prospect. Surely that is an indicator that the desire is still strong? Or maybe it's just understandable, they have what I can't have and I have no desire to have that thrust down my throat no matter how OK I think I am? I don't know. One thing I know is that I don't want to feel this constant uncertainty for the next 12 months. I just want it to go away so I can get on with life. The thought of being without children doesn't seem like a gaping void that other people seem to see. But then almost everyone with kids says that it's really hard work... but "worth it".  I could be about to miss out on the most magical of experiences which none of my childfree plans could ever live up to? But then, when I think about doing the last round I have the same gut reaction. No! I don't want to do it. Isn't that message enough? Maybe all the negatives I mention above are just 'excuses' because I can find a counter argument for every single one of them and if I REALLY want to go through with it then I wouldn't worry about these things. Other women on this site don't seem to have the same doubts? They seem to know that having a child will make everything OK. I am pretty bullish when I want to be so maybe all these questions are really my hearts way of saying, enough is enough?

And yet I'm someone who relishes new experiences... and I'm going to miss out on the biggest life experience a woman can have? But then pregnancy and nursing don't last forever do they? And there are an awful lot of downsides. Maybe that would have been OK when I was 35 when I could still see a chunk of my life after the kids had left home. Now my DH would be pensionable by the time any child would be at uni. I can see why people who are affluent would see no problem in having children late. We're by no means poor but I can see a life of worrying about money ahead if we go down that route. More excuses? Or am I just being more realistic now? Is the bottom line that  IF meant that we missed our 'window'. Maybe I wanted children at 35, maybe then I wanted it enough for both of us. I'm not sure I do any more. 

I realised at the weekend I was pretty defensive when my friends said 'well if you've given it a good go so maybe time to move on'. The reaction I had was they were calling me a failure as a woman (they weren't!, I know this rationally) and I wanted to prove that it was just the clinic that was at fault, not me. I wanted to get a BFP to prove that I could. How ridiculous is that?

My sister is visiting from overseas in the summer. Her kids look like me. What if that throws up all sorts of emotions and I decide I really do want to do this last round. Then we'll just have lost even more time.  How can I be back to the same question I was asking at 35.. whether I really want children? 

So I guess I just carry on giving it time and trying not to be hasty. Bottom line is I still don't feel like I want to go through with the cycle but the constant questioning / challenging myself is killing me. I definitely believe that it's important to make a decision and then to set about making it the right decision. It feels like the 'easy way out' would be to go through with the treatment. Then I can leave behind the fear of regret because the outcome would likely be negative. And I think I would find that easier to accept and move on from. But that is no way to bring a baby into the world. 

I find it hard to picture me and DH with a baby / toddler / child. I guess that isn't much of a surprise since we're rarely around them. We don't have many children in our families and I have migrated slowly towards all my child-free friends. Can I ask..do you ladies spend much time with babies / children? I know Mrs P's signature expresses such beautiful positivity about being a brilliant auntie in a manner that I can kind of grasp in abstract way for some time off in the future. But not yet. I'd really like to know how you all handle it? Maybe it's time to start forcing myself to be around some babies but I just don't think I can handle it. I'm OK with children though. And actually, the thought of say working with 'anonymous' toddlers (i.e. not my friends babies) seems totally fine so maybe it's really more of a jealousy / anger / bitterness issue than anything to do with a real longing? Does that make sense? 

Oh dear, I thought writing it down would help. But all that happens is that I get behind one outcome for a bit and then I panic and then I switch camps. And so on. But thanks for letting me ramble. As always, I feel worried that I might upset people by saying all this. I know some people would love to be in the position to be able to try one more time and have no doubts about what they want. That I'm on a fertility forum still questioning having children seems to some degree wrong. But I think it's more complex, when I went through my first three treatments I was in no doubt what I wanted. I remember being away with DH before we started treatment feeling black with despair about the prospect of not having children. It's just a different kind of ache right now, because I've probably accepted on some level that it won't happen. So I hope that people aren't offended. 

Seeing the counsellor together on Thursday, maybe that will help  

love to you all. Sorry about my ramblings.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

...or maybe I just need to quit naval gazing, make a decision and get on with it!


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Janie, it seems very clear to me that you don't want any more treatment and that is completely fine. Irrespective of what you want your husband does not want to be a father and hat alone should be enough to say give it up surely? I think lots of the reasons you've highlighted are just excuses, something concrete to hang the fact that in reality you do not want any more treatment on. Justifying the fact that emotionally you want to say no more with something that takes the pressure off by being a material worry etc. It sounds as though you see having a baby as something that you should do, because others do and something that you're determined to get just because you think that if you try hard enough you can get anything, perhaps that's been how the rest of your life was been?. (I say that because I know in some ways it's how I've felt because in the ast there's been noting I couldn't do or get if I set my mind to it). I hope this doesn't sound harsh, it's not meant to and you did ask for views after all.

All I can say is what I said to you right at the start, it is OK to say no more, it is OK to stop. You just have to give yourself permission to accept that. I do hope the counselling helps.  Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

ah but maybe its just to soon to make a decision and get on with it Janie  . Maybe you are questioning it all so much because you are just not ready to make that decision today. You are certainly not the first to get confused over why we are doing this. Do we really want to be mums still or do we just want to beat IF? And you are not the first to question whether your negativity towards trying again is genuinely a desire to move on, or just self preservation against the pain of anther failure. I´m afraid i don´t have any answers so I´m of no help at all but hopefully counselling might get you facing the right direction. It might at least highlight the most important thought processes and help identify which are real feelings and which are those annoying ones we hide behind to protect ourselves.


I don´t spend much time with small kids, mainly because I don´t know many people with small kids now, but also because I get bored and irritated with friends who invite me round to show off their kids. I´m not very good at being in awe of other peoples toddlers because as a general rule its dull  . One of my closest friends has a toddler and another on the way and I love spending time with them. We do stuff together and the kids are a part of it rather than dominating it. And another close friend has slightly bigger (4-12) kids and they are great fun, and again part of our time rather than me being a part of their time. Kids are great I guess, its the parents that are tedious   .


Don´t rush closing the door and making final decisions. You´ve been on this journey for 6ish years so it seems crazy to make a final decision in a couple of days. Take your time, your eggs are not suddenly going to become useless over night if you take some time out to think. Everything happens slowly so no need to rush it, it won´t work. And it is OK to stop, you´re not missing out on THE most amazing thing in the world by not being a mum, there are plenty of other amazing experiences to be had.


Sorry, I don´t have any more energy to read back further than Janies post so all I can do is leave   for everyone else and hope you are doing OK. Physically I´m doing OK but my mental health has taken a big hit.


Thinking of you all, 
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Doesn't sound remotely harsh Maisy. You're right, I haven't had life on a plate and there is definitely something in that. I don't think it's quite as simple as not wanting them or wanting them just because 'that's what you do' but there is definitely an element of that. I am genuinely very worried that I've done too good a job of burying my maternal desire by avoiding 'all things baby' (at the cost of several close friends) in order to protect myself. And that will all crumble at some point.

Kat - oh man, now I feel just terrible for my big long post. So lovely to hear from you and I feel a bit silly knowing that you have replied given what you have been going through. I'm really pleased to hear that physically you are doing well although I'm sure it's been so tough on you (<-- understatement) in so many ways. Hopefully though the physical improvement will be a great foundation for keeping on moving onwards and upwards. I really hope so.   

And thanks for your words Kat. I know nobody else can give me the answer. I guess I'm just impatient to start feeling truly happy again. But you're absolutely right. This one can't be rushed and a couple more months won't make any difference to the clinical outcome. Half-tempted to remove my post as re-reading seems stupidly indulgent. But it's where I'm at and that's valid I guess?

I could give me whole take on families just now which is probably not that different to your own. But I think everyone has heard enough from me right now.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Don't remove your post. Its not just good for you to get all those feelings out, but lots of people lurk on here and it's those long posts with our hearts exposed, that help others feel less alone I suspect. And don't feel bad for me, I wouldn't have replied if I didn't want to xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

and for what its worth, I think its possible to over think things. I know its hard to turn your thoughts off but maybe you´d benefit from it right now. Get your Mindfulness book out again and focus on the here&now for a while and see if giving yourself some headspace helps a little. Maybe a break from thinking will let you go back to it again with fresh eyes.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

am sure you're right... I think I'm subconsciously aware that another month is approaching and a decision could be made. I know that for now nothing has changed and I really don't want to do treatment so I should just try and leave it to one side. It's probably because the counselling is approaching too. I think that deep down, with every day that passes I am moving further away from wanting more treatment. But I almost keep forcing myself to examine what I might be missing.  I guess if those passages I read about quietening your mind to let your gut speak have any substance then my gut is saying enough is enough. And it's only when I think with my head that I question it. Although you could probably interpret it both ways!!

Over-think it?  Moi?!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Your gut is far more advanced than mine. Mine thinks 'cake, chocolate, cake, wine and more cake' ;-)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ha!!!  It thinks all those things too, trust me!


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi Janie~ you hit the nail on the head. I get confused about kids, babies all the time. I was blessed with BFP 1st go at IVF, so sure it could happen again? but partner gone, can i do it alone? all my friends have kids/babies. WHY SHOULD I MISS OUT ON WHAT THEY HAVE. i HAVE KNOWN SINCE AGE OF 16 I CANT HAVE KIDS, SO TO ME THE SHORT 9 WEEKS OF PREGNANCY WERE A BLESSING. .. at t5he age of 40.SO WHY WAS IT TAKEN AWAY?
I am confused too and scared of doing it again as i dont think i could cope with another mc. Doing it alone. Do i want to prove a point and say yes, i can do this again and without a partner.
It doesn't sound to me like you have made ur mind up. Sounds like you are deeply confused. My ex didnt want kids, but when we split up and got back together, he said he did.... Says alot for he was prob glad i mc.
Im not going back for follow up appointment yet, as i dont feel ready. xxxxx  
Lisa xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Firstly Kat it's great to hear that physically u are doing better, as you get stronger I am sure mentally you will also feel a little better... I am making you a virtual cake as we speak! whatever you want it to be but please make sure it is something with ingredients I have here in my little isle   

Janie my dear as Kat said there is nothing we can say that will magically solve your dilemma if we could we would... the ladies are right you probably just need not think about IF for awhile, I did that sometime after my last tx just took the time to not think of anything IF... mind you I still thought about it but never focused on it if that makes sense. Don't take the post down as Kat said there are ladies who are lurking and reading helps them realize they are not alone because a lot of the things you said hold true to even me... I too divorced myself from friends who had kids even my own god-children... I just could not face being around them because I felt like I (my body) was such a failure and I think a lot of it too was anger and jealousy why can they have these kids and I can't... I still feel that way to some extent but then now most of my friends kids are grown teenagers... I am however very close to my sister and brother's kids and to me they are my children... As for my close friends here where I live I have none with kids, I have cut myself off from them... take your time I understand your reasoning about age as well I have the same concerns DH will also be 44 this year and I am 40 and right now I feel like I must do something with the frosties I have and if that fails then one last tx but then I think that will take me to probably 42 before i can afford another tx...  this whole IF thing is hard, confusing and downright upsetting if you ask me... but this the pack we have been dealt so we can either fold or play it out... I know I may sound just as confused as you but I hope I have some sense somewhere along the way... 

All this is hard and we get so confused about the decisions we have to make   couple more days before Easter ladies! have a good evening... Kat are you resting well?


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Thanks girls. Jbt, what you say always makes sense Hon. Xx I guess I just need to hold my nerve until i decide whether to play or fold...  Xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Now Janie that is where your gambling spirit comes in! 

Ladies I have fallen off the exercise wagon  i need help to get back on.... summer is approaching and i need a summer body hahahaha!


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi Kat, great to hear from you!  I'm glad you're back at home and hope you're recovering well. Operations are horrible things, I suspect you'll feel better in other ways when the recovery period is over.

Janie, I've read your posts and there's a lot I could echo. The age thing, for a start, only we're rather older than you. My dh will be 60 next year and I am now over 50. I was (unwisely) watching a programme about young dads on BBC3 earlier this eve and I could have cried, they all looked half my age. The fact that this horrible wind's aggravating the arthritis in my knees doesn't help, I end up hobbling like an old woman of 90 odd. I actually flicked channels to try and get away from Channel 4's live coverage of bedtimes (why are there so many child related programmes at the moment?!) One of the featured families had seven kids.* Seven.* That's when it really gets to me, though rationally I know that it's not that some horrible god figure has doled out seven to them and none to us. It's certainly not because we'd make terrible parents, though this is what I end up thinking. It's just what it is but it's so hard to hold on to that.

On the other hand, think of Elton John and other prominent dads who've ended up having children late. If you want to have children, your age should be no barrier. If your dh really doesn't want them, though, that's more difficult. Why doesn't he want children? Or is it just that he's happy with the life you've got and he doesn't want it to change?

I'd echo JBT, give it awhile. See how you feel after a few days, though I know it's so hard to stop thinking about it. We've carefully avoided people with young children for years now, so I can't advise any better approach to that. I just do what I have to do so that I don't rush out of someone's house crying. Fortunately. we've no young children in the family because that's harder to deal with. I feel like my body's a total failure, too. The fact that it has other health issues obviously doesn't help. If it was a car, it would have been dumped years ago.

Tippytoes, I'd definitely wait until you feel up to it before you go for your follow up appointment. I've had early miscarriages, too, though not after IVF. You must still be so raw. Take it easy for awhile.

Janie, Moonshadow and Nosilab, thanks for your welcomes.  It's really good to chat on this thread.

Rowanxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Rowan - yes, those damn tv shows are popping up all over the place. I've never watched an episode of OBEM and I intend to keep it that way... but I've noticed that all the channels are trying to get in on the act. Maybe I'm sticking my head in the sand but it does me no good to torture myself with this type of thing. DH is very good at picking films etc these days which don't upset me. We did happen upon a film which had an underline story of IF which we hadn't spotted from the description and I sobbed all the way through. We had actually invited our neighbours around to watch it and thank goodness they couldn't make it.

As for age, I guess it's another thing that I worry about commenting on. Obviously this is so different for everyone and we all know how quickly what we thought was 'OK for us' changes as the years go on. So please don't take any of my comments as judgements as they are anything but... they just relate to where I'm at for the moment. I guess some ladies may feel the same at 30 and others at 50. One of the things I like about this site is that by and large, most ladies have been through so much ... or read of others who have been through so much... and been humbled by it. So I hope it makes us all less judgmental. I certainly know this will be a lesson I take away whatever way this pans out. 

TT - I echo what Rowan has said. It's still such early days for you. Are you happy to go back to work next week. If you're not and you can afford not to then maybe more time will help. It's different for everyone I guess.

One last thing before I sign off for the night, I chatted to a friend earlier who has decided not to have children. It's not been an easy one and something she questions regularly. We were talking about fear of regret. She said that she has accepted that regret is an inevitable part of her decision but by accepting that, the fear fades. So yes, there will always be moments of sadness but these will pass (" this too will  pass ") and it's important to have made a decision to be positive because then you can offset those moments of regret with all the things that we did instead. It helped me anyway. Actually, I think Kat made the exact point a few weeks ago but I'm a bit dim and sometimes i need to hear things twice! 

Night ladies xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Grrr!! Just typed a long post and then lost it all when the battery ran out on the flippin' iPad!!    Here goes again....

Janie, please don't remove your post!!  Reading it was like you were reading my mind, spooky!  I could totally relate to and empathise with everything you'd written.  I think it is so much more complicated (and almost impossible) when we have a DH who doesn't want children, but is going along with it all "because they love us and know it's what we want".  So obviously saying that I don't have any wise words of wisdom as I'm also still very confused too.  I do have lots of children in my family but rarely see them as they're all spread out across the country.  But when I do see them I enjoy spending time with them, but I honestly believe that's because most of them (except 2) came along before my IF journey began, so for some reason that makes things easier and somehow more 'acceptable'.  Now friends with children, that's a different story.  I do tend to avoid them and have isolated myself from them, but I guess ultimately I'm the only one who loses out in the end    If I'm honest I think the chances of me and DH having another joint session is slim to none, I can't imagine him offering to come back, but you never know?!  So still no further forward on a decision for us.  Will be thinking of you this Thursday and hope all goes well.  It's a shame we don't live closer as I think we'd have a lot to talk about!

Jen, thank you for your lovely thoughtful post, as always.  It completely came across in the right way and definitely gave me food for thought.  In fact when I was talking to a friend yesterday about how low I was feeling I quoted what you'd said to me on here    Hope you're doing ok?

Kat, so lovely to hear from you, and great to hear you're doing well physically.  You've just faced a massive ordeal, huge to say the least!  So it's no wonder your mental health has taken a bit of a battering too.  Your mental health and physical body will both need their recovery time.  Take it easy lovely lady.

Rowan, hmm those programmes eh!!    I refuse to watch the Bedtime one, just the advert irritated me, from what you've said I'm glad I didn't watch it now.  The tv does seem full of those progs again at the mo doesn't it.

Hello as always to all the lovely ladies on here, thinking of you all.  I'm now exhausted after having to use double the amount of brain power having to re-write all that    Plus for some unknown reason we have 2 very playful/naughty cats this eve - funny but bloody hard work!!  Is it a full moon or something?!?  So off to sort them out......

xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

Seems like I've missed a lot of soul searching over the last couple of days, please don't anyone remove any posts. There is so much honesty here and I for one am grateful for that. Having said that I'm not sure where to start!

The question of DH not being on board can be one of the hardest aspects of this. I'd imagined it being a joint venture, that we'd share the highs and lows. The reality has been somewhat different. And yet on the rare occasion I've spoken to friends who have children about this they've invariably said that their DH's have generally been pretty ambivalent about fatherhood until it actually happened. I know my brother didn't want his lifestyle to change and only went along with it reluctantly yet he now works part-time so he can look after their children; he loves being a dad. I cling to that at times. 

Like so many of us I've been trying to understand where I am in all this. A year ago I was fully committed, doing the research, asking questions, trying to lead the healthiest life I possibly could. Now I'm in the middle of a FET cycle and have such mixed feelings about it. I already feel like I've given every thing I can to this so I'm not sure it's about not having regrets anymore. I can't remember which of you wise ladies said you weren't sure you could carry on wanting it enough for the both of you but I guess that's kind of where I am at the minute. If I conjure up that ideal I used to have of us both wanting this and planning and dreaming together then the doubts fall away, but that isn't our reality.

As for friends with children; that's a tough one. I have no problem with seeing my nephew and niece, though I do think it helps that they were born before we started trying. I do however find it difficult to be around friend's children. Most of my friends now have children (or are pregnant) and it's inevitable that whenever we get together the conversations will revert time and time again to kids. I know I've distanced myself from them a lot and that saddens me but it was just too hard. Maybe it will get easier with time... I agree with Kat, the problem often isn't the children, it's the parents.

Sorry for lack of personals, am on a nexus tablet which isn't great for typing.

Jen x


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies
You'll be pleased to know that this is going to be a short one!
Jen - I empathise with everything you're saying. I think I got through the previous rounds by being determined that it would all be fine when the baby appeared. And to be honest, I probably believe that. I mean, DH isn't made of stone and I'm sure yours isn't either. For all their ambivalence, they're not stupid, and they know that it could work and that they have to be prepared for that. Somewhere deep down they must have their own vision of having children which isn't just about drudgery? Surely they can visualise the lovely moments too? I guess maybe my concerns lie more around if things go wrong. What if there are more lows than highs? And I was the one that ruined our lovely life. But I know that really the chances of something going wrong are very slim and really we just join all the fertile myrtles at that stage as those are common worries.  It must be particularly difficult for you to know how to handle all the emotions just now. Thinking of you. xx

Interesting that you and Nosilab have both said that you are OK with kids that were born before your IF journey began. I feel exactly the same. 

Nosilab - I agree, I would love to chat to you face-to-face just now and I am wondering whether there could be the opportunity in May when I head south. I'll mull it over. Thanks for the wishes about counselling. You must be on holiday now..I hope you've got some lovely things planned and you can forget about it all for a while. I'll let you know how the counselling goes but it might not be until next week. I hope those pesky cats calmed down! 

Kat - I hope you're doing OK and making a little bit of progress each day. I'm guessing you're still pretty limited in terms of what you can do but take the time to mend and enjoy the opportunity to sink into some books because once you're recovered you'll hopefully be out doing all sorts of exciting things. I just downloaded the samples for most of the books you recommended so will pick a couple to take away with me later. 

JBT - beach time!!!! Have an awesome break m'dear!!

Mrs P / Rowan and all the other ladies (am running out of time and DH hassling me to get off laptop (which we also run as a TV!) to watch Masterchef!

AFM - joint counselling tomorrow and then off in our campervan for the long weekend. I'll probably not be in reception again until Monday but I'll be thinking of you all.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Enjoy Janie...

Yes beach is just 2 days away! we'll drive over on Friday morning takes about 4 hours to where we are going... nice leisurely drive on the coast line we'll be back on Monday.

I think you are all right, I feel the same about kids born before the IF journey... but again I am only really close to my sister and brother's kids and my best friend, funnily enough they don't live her so I don't see them a lot at all...

Have great Easter everyone I hope you all do something new even if it is not exciting  

TT thinking about you too  

Kat you are always in my prayers...

Janie, Jen, Mrs P, Nosilab   thinking of you too so don't get jealous  

No baking for me this weekend but I will do some baking next weekend...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

My DH doesn't want kids anymore either. He was never wild about the idea to start with but went along with it all. For us though tx was always a bit of a one man show but parenthood would have been a team effort I have no doubt. Things have changed now and DH is actively against having kids so i'm a bit like you janie and a little fearful of bringing a burden into the world and carrying all that guilt.

Away in the mountains now and phone battery soon blissfully dead  Walking is a bit easier for me here so I can at least get mountain air every day, although getting down to the road is pretty hardcore and I'd never make it without my crutches lol. Homemade hot cross buns ready mmmmmm

Happy Easter everyone and I'll make more if an effort to catch up next week. 
Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hello 
I haven't gone AWOL - promise!  Work is going well, all new and exciting so honeymoon period for me 
Will catch up for longer on Good Friday, every day during the week I seem to only have an hour that isn't commuting, sleeping, bootcamping or yoga and that is spent scratching my head and wondering what to eat...crazy!
Love to you all - and quickly Kat (glad you are recovering from the op) and Janie (long posts are fab - I think I could build a career on long emails - just wait til my workplace finds that out - hope you have a good counselling session and nice long weekend).  I will contribute to the conversation a bit more when I have time on my hands (will be at in-laws over the Easter so that will be time in abundance)!
On something different - I've even missed Dallas this week - shock, horror!
Right, 45 minutes past bedtime,
MrsP xxx


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Dear All


I wonder if I can join your thread?  We have just experienced our 5th ICSI failure, we have never had a BFP ever.  DH really feels that we need to call it a day, and part of me knows that he is probably right, but it is tearing my apart at the moment, the thought that I'll never be pregnant etc.


I have spent most of today in tears and am not even dressed yet.  Can't help feeling that life can be so ****.


I am sorry if I am intruding, but I just don't know where to go.
Mrs H


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I have very little battery left but just enough to send big hugs your way mrsH. This is exactly the right place for you to be and you are very welcome here. It's a very safe thread to be because we all know just how you feel. I know a lot of us are away for the Easter weekend so its a but quiet but I promise you that you'll find lots if support when we are all home again. I'm so sorry for your BFN (((hugs))) and I hope the long weekend lets you gather your thoughts a little and regain some strength. It takes time to heal and you can't rush it xxx

Take care if yourself and we'll all catch up with you properly when we are back online.
Love Katxxx


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi Kat


Many thanks for your reply, and for welcoming me to the thread.  I have at least managed to get washed and dressed now, which I guess is a start.  I just feel very very empty and very very angry that my body can't seem to do what its supposed to do, i.e carry a baby.  DH and I are now officially a statistic, we are the one in six out of our friends who can't have children and it feels crap.


Thanks again for the welcome and I hope you have a relaxing Easter break.
Mrs H xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Just a quick pop in to welcome you Mrs H. On the beach but quickly you are on the right thread. Will post more once i get home. Kat hope u r doing well.

It's been nice so far. DH has surely nixed anyplans of moving forward for now, fill u in on my return. Feel like poo according to u brits


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Got a wee bit more charge now.

MrsH - grief for the loss of your hopes and dreams gives you every right to mope around in your PJs for a few days, and continuous crying for a few days is inevitable too I'm afraid. It's only a problem if it turns into a few weeks instead of a few days. It's best to let all those tears out. Off topic completely but I was talking to a friend earlier and she is just waiting for a call to say her dad had died and she is consumed with grief naturally. She stomped up a huge mountain yesterday and cried uncontrollably the whole way. Once that grief was out though she could face life feeling a wee bit lighter until the next wave of grief comes along. Scream and shout, or just sob your heart out, or what ever you need to do to get through this period of emptiness. It's hard to remember back to previous BFNs when you are in the midst of this one, but you got through those ok and came out the other side and you'll get through this one too. You might be a statistic in terms of having no children but you are a statistic for other things too. I wonder what that stats are for women as brave and courageous as you hey? I bet you are in a minority on that front (apart from everyone else on this thread of course ;-) ). I don't know so can't come up with any more today but its only a matter if time and i'll have loads of positive ines for you xxx Anyway I hope you have a few days off now and can find something to smile about in the next few days. Get lots of hugs for your DH and over indulge in as much Easter chocolate as you can is my advice.

JBT - that sounds ominous and I hope you are ok.

Oops, DH spotted my phone is plugged into his laptop to charge so I had better go. I'm a rugby widow though so I think he owes me ;-) I was about to start on a roll about exposing myself to children and another about how we should all be as kind to ourselves as we are too each other. At least you have all been spared pages of brain dribble from me, I'll thank DH on your behalf ;-)

Oh and I dreamed of Cadbury mini eggs last night and I can't tell you how disappointed I was to wake up and remember its marzipan eggs all round for us :-( Have a chocolate egg for me everyone.

Love to you all,
Katxxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi cathryn and welcome x you have been through so much and i can't really advise you. I just lost baby but i can relate to not getting dressed and letting everything go as there doesn't seem to be a reason for anything anymore. Time you need but i know right now its hard to do anything but cry. Life can be cruel and don't we know it. Sending you lots of   xxx


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Dear All


Thank you so much for the lovely welcome to the thread.  Its nice to be able to talk to other women who have gone through similar processes and have some idea of the pain etc that i am experiencing.


TippyToes - I can't even begin to imagine what you have been through, big hugs to you    


jamaicababytrying - thank you for the welcome.  


Kat - thanks for your very kind words.


Mine and DH's closest friends popped over last night and gave me some much needed TLC, it was really lovely of them.  It took my mind off it for a brief time and they managed to make me smile a bit.  The only thing I couldn't do was have a glass of wine which was a bit crap, as I can't remember how it mixes with the clexane shots I've been taking.  Can't get hold of anyone at the clinic yet either to confirm what I need to stop taking, they won't be able to call back until tomorrow.  Not sure whether to just stop taking all the drugs anyway.


Thanks again to all of you for being so nice and supportive.


Enjoy the rest of your weekends.
Mrs H xxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi cat how are you doing today? I find when i have company i feel slightly better but when they go i feel so alone. This time last month i had a partner , expecting a baby and had a lovely dog. Now its all gone. Life sucks eh! Guess time is a great healer. 
Glad you had friends over last night. Did you feel any better for it? Xxx


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi TippyToes - our friends were a welcome distraction, but as you say once they have gone nothing has changed.  I really feel for you at the moment, to lose a baby is bad enough but to then be on your own is horrid.  Thinking of you, and I agree life really does suck, and I wish I knew why so i could get some sort of magic wand and sort it all out.    


Mrs H xxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsH - you can stop your clexane straight away and you can drink taking it anyway as all its doing us thinning your blood. Not sure what other meds you are on? Prednisolone? You need to wean of that more slowly but I would start come off it now. PM me if you need help with how much to reduce it by - its my job to know about this bit just whacky ideas I promise lol. Oh and alcohol and prednisolone is fine too.

TT - I don't think we've said hello? I was in a self absorbed crisis when you started posting so sorry if you felt ignored xxx Life sucks sometimes but you'll get through it, you're stronger than you think.

Got to go and rescue my DH from the top of the mountain now as he is too tired to ski home. Meeting at the bar though and a beer in the sun sounds lush 

Love Katxxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi nordicat . Things not too bad at moment as at my parents. Xx
cat , yes a magic wand would be great...... My ex dropping cd at mine later. Told him to post it through door. First time i have heard from him since he left. Xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi there

Just popping in to say a very brief hello whilst I have some fleeting reception. Cathryn   . I think that still being in your pjs is a must for where you're at. Don't try and rush the healing process, it will happen. As you well know, it's just something that we have to get through. So sorry for what you're going through right now.

TT - same to you, I hope that your ex dropping by isn't too painful. I know that feeling of looking back in time and thinking how good things were and how quickly it can all change. I really feel for you.   to you too.

Kat - glad to hear you're in the mountains and at least getting some cold beers in the sunshine even if you can't hit the slopes. Tell your DH that Janie says he's a wimp (although it's OK as sounds like nice moment for you as a result!). Enjoy the rest of your break.

JBT - hmmmmm... I really hope that whatever your DH has said hasn't totally messed up your break away? We're here when you get back... as Kat says, sounds ominous. Thinking of you. xx

We've had 3 lovely days of cross-country skiing (and some very cold nights in the van!). OK for us under 2 duvets but not sure the dog faired so well. We had to break the ice in his water bowl in the morning! We had our joint counselling session on Thursday. Was really quite bizarre. DH was surprisingly chatty and totally charmed the counsellor and I think he found the session surprisingly helpful too. The odd thing was that it culminated (cutting long story short here) in DH saying he was totally happy to do another round. He says his position hasn't changed and in fact the only difference is that I have lost momentum. He says he is always where he was, fairly indifferent but not actually negative, just easy-oasy. Strange thing was that it didn't leave me feeling like I wanted to get started and I need to fathom out why. We've had a lovely weekend so far and I just don't know that I need any 'more'? Maybe just more of what I already have... but without all the sadness. I think once that fades, I might be OK again. Better than OK? I don't know, just how I feel at the moment. Think I need to sit with it some more.

Jen, Nosilab, Mrs P and everyone else I've missed, I hope you're having a lovely break. Hopefully we can all catch up properly soon.

Janie xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi ladies,

I promised a longer reply and it's taken until today to pen it.  That's Easter for you!

So much has happened in the space of a week, I can't quite take it all in.  I'm sorry to hear that times continue to be tough for some of you.  One thing I have realised is coming to terms / deciding what to do next isn't a constantly paced thing.  There are days, weeks and months where the brain can't contemplate the conundrum of infertility and the impact it has on your life.  There are other times, where hope can renew your energy - a new treatment, a new approach or a new avenue to explore such as counselling can propel you forward.

For me, this last cycle was predicted to be the last, before I had even started it.  However, you still feel this terrible emptiness when, despite all the 'help' to conceive in the world (or feels like it) you can't succeed (in my case at least).  For us, the money train ran dry which confirmed our feelings that we couldn't continue.  For little old me, I realised I needed to step off the fertility treatment 'funbus'.  That was really hard to admit to myself, let alone anyone else!  In the end, I wanted some life back, to approach life without fitting in treatment, to stop worrying and feeling like a complete failure because I couldn't conceive a child, despite my logical brain nagging me that IVF was the only way to get 80% of the way there with an embyro at least MADE even if it wouldn't implant!  Oh craziness...

So I started a new beginning sometime a few weeks back.  I tiptoed into this thread, I started my own thread - I was terrified of losing hubby, I got counselling (which, on this occasion, wasn't great, but I've had it before and usually it is worth doing) but all of these stages had to wait until I was ready.  In the background of last year, I've taken voluntary redundancy, supported my DH as he lost his job and applied for others, moved from north to south (practically single handedly) and eventually, found myself a job and 'normal life' resumes - whatever that is!  I changed my signature a few weeks back - twice - this act caused me some tears, but I felt I needed to draw a line in the sand to help me move forward.  Generally, I'm feeling more positive about life, if a bit sad that things didn't work out differently and I had to make decisions that were hard.

And now, one week into a new job, I still wonder what the future holds.  A 9-5 lifestyle is back.  I worry something might 'trip me up' and I'll have a meltdown.  It's a relief to have a job where no-one knows about my fertility battles.  I quite like that.  I've always said (to myself) that if I want a 5th cycle I can - my choices are still open - but I'm pretty certain it won't happen.  I'm just allowing myself some relief - giving myself permission to 'not try'.  I am so lucky in that I have a niece and nephew I love to death.  I honestly feel such overwhelming love for my sister-in-law's children who are 16 and 9.  I'm a big part of their life and I hope to see more of them now we have moved.  I think my nephew only loves me for Angry Birds on my phone, but hey, it's love!

Not sure what I'm trying to say.  Perhaps just to say that whatever stage you are at, there will be a time when you know which way to turn, which route to try out.  I hope by sharing a shortened version of what has happened to me in recent months that you can see that.  I should also stress that if your route involves trying again, that's fine too.  I think it's always worth reappraising life at times of change, and us ladies go through change more than most.

Anyway, love to you all - TT, Cathryn, Janie, JBT, Jen, Kat, Nosilab and anyone else I may have missed!  

Take care, MrsP xxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi mrs p. Yes its the big changes and decisions to make. I still have 2 funded treatments available, but with no partner am i brave enough to try donor sperm?? I know that thinking, is a long way off with what im going through at the moment. I just want to get the 'old me' back again. It seems you have made some changes and have helped you move on. You deserve pat on the back and a big   xx
janie. My ex hasnt been yet. Im ready to go to bed, but still worried incase he rings bell. Im such a softy that i dont know if i have the strength to not answer. If I did answer and he asked me how i am, im sure i will scream and shout at him and I know thats not what i need. 
Wish i had some headphones for my tv in bedroom. Then i would never hear doorbell. 
I always say, i will never let a man hurt me again and Ive let it happen time and time again..
I cant change the way i am. Im a homely girl, who takes pride in my home, enjoys cooking and baking and love to take care of someone. ( thats why i know I would be a good mummy)
It seems men take the P*ss out of that. 
I see some of my friends and they have such strength at times like this. Wish i could be the same  
Mrs p. Im off the ivf funbus now. .. I only had 1 tx and that ruined me. Still dont know if i could do it again? 
Its strange that i never thought it would work for some reason. When it did, mc was not on my mind. I thought all would be ok. Its nice that you have your brothers kids that are close to you and you have new job and moved. There is alot of new things going on in your life. You should enjoy thoses precious things that make you happy. Like you say, you know you can try again if you wanted to and feel the time is right
 xx


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi Mrs P - I think you have summed it up v well.  I think coming to terms with infertility is definitely not a constantly paced thing, I think there will be times over the coming months when I feel ready to face things and other times when I will probably just rant etc at the unfairness of it all.


It sounds like you have really taken control of where your life is now going and I have great admiration for that.


I have two lovely nieces but I really don't get to see them anywhere near as often as I would like as they live up North and we live down South.  Its a shame, I would love to see so much more of them but its not to be.


TT - I hope that perhaps your ex doesn't pop round tonight and that you manage to get some sleep.  You have so much hurt to deal with    I think you are stronger than you think you are.


NordicKat - thanks for confirming that I can just stop the clexane, I must admit I will not miss having to do those injections, they b***** sting!  And I don't miss the Cyclogest pessaries either.  Hope you managed to rescue DH!   


Janie - hello, and blimey you sound like you have had an active few days.  Sounds like you have some things to ponder too.


Thanks everyone for your support over the last couple of days, its meant a lot.


Night all 
Cathryn xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for support ladies. H still not been so Im off to bed. Probably realises that i won't answer door when i didn't text him back. Hi to rest of you lovely ladies or really should be saying nite nite xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi lovely ladies 

First of all a very big welcome to Cathryn. So sorry to hear about your bfn  I think at times like this pj days are usually inevitable, you need time to grieve and heal. So having a good old cry and a pj day is what's needed. Hope you're feeling a wee bit better? Although I do understand it will take time. Glad you found this thread, everyone is very lovely and supportive.

TippyToes, sounds like your staying very strong and coping incredibly well  It sounds like H not turning up was a good thing, I reckon any way. Tell me to b****r off if I'm sticking my nose in too far, but could you not post the CD to him, instead of him coming to the house to collect it? I'm just worried that it might cause you more upset and set you back a bit when you seem to be doing well at the mo?

Kat, good to hear from you. Sounds like you're doing well if you're up and about, especially as you've been on a 'DH rescue mission'? How are you feeling?

MrsP, really great post, well written and can relate to so much. How come you're still watching Dallas?! I thought it'd finished? Are you watching it on catch up? Sounds like your new job is keeping you busy and that you're enjoying it, fab news!

Janie, I truly admire you for sleeping in the van in that cold weather, brrrr! Sounds like your counselling session went really _really_ well! I know you're still undecided about the way forward and that's understandable, but at least you now know where DH is coming from and that even though he's still ambivalent about things he is at least willing to do more tx if that's what you choose, that must take some of the pressure off you and ease things a bit? I'm _so_ pleased it went so well. Maybe I should take my DH to your counsellor instead, and/or get your DH to talk to mine?! 

JBT, hope you're ok and that the chat/comments from your DH recently are good not bad?! Hope you've both managed to enjoy your hols?

Hello to Jen, Set, Rowan, and anyone I've missed (sorry), hope you're all doing ok and enjoying the Easter break.

No real news from me, had a lovely relaxing break so far, nothing exciting or fancy just some really nice chilled out days. I asked DH if we could plan to have 'another chat' soon as we're still no further forward - I didn't want to ruin the Easter weekend (nor did he) so we've said we'll chat when we're out and about on Thursday as we'll be trapped in the car then and so there'll be no escape!  I think I know what the outcome will be but it's worth another go and I just need to know.

xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi ladies xxx ex didn't come over. Nosilab, he was dropping cd over, but he didn't turn up. Asked him to drop it off at my parents. Don't know why i didn't think of that before ! Xx


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Tippytoes just tell him to bog right off. Chuck any of his crap in bin bags and chuck it either on the pavement or just dump it in the skip. Oh and make sure you get your dog back, he's clearly an immature pillock who shouldn't be allowed the care of a goldfish let alone a dog. AM being rather direct today I know but there we go.

Hello to everyone else


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Aha TippyToes!  I thought it was the other way around, that makes more sense now and a much better plan to get him to drop it off at your parents   xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

MrsP - lovely to hear from you. You sound really philosophical. I can totally imagine that feeling of wondering whether something will 'trip you up' and leave you in meltdown. But perhaps it's best to accept that you will have occasional lows and the journey isn't yet over.. but the lows will pass and it sounds like every day you are growing stronger. I really hope so. It's lovely that you feel so close to your nephew and niece. Your words about the pace of coming terms not being evenly paced has been helpful for me to hear. Yesterday I had one of those almost oddly euphoric days when I felt that I was 'over' it all and really coming to terms. Today... not so much. I hope work continues to go well and you've had a good weekend with the outlaws!

Nosilab... hmmm... as I said above, not feeling quite so A-OK today. I kinda know when I get in that euphoric state that it won't last. It's like being drunk with optimism. But sometimes I think I just run away with myself and then I crash. I'm not really sure we're huge strides further. Reality is that we could have been about to start another cycle in the next day or two but DH is actively avoiding all discussion and that pretty much says it all. He's had a great weekend and kids just seem like a hassle. To be honest I didn't really believe what he said in the counselling session. I don't mean he was deliberately lying ... but maybe not being fully honest about his feelings. It's not 'just' ambivalence. So not much has changed. He is still leaving the decision entirely with me. Actually the counsellor put this to him in our session. She asked him what he would do? It pretty well threw him and I thought he might have understood how hard this is for me but now I'm fairly certain he is just going with an instinct that it will all just fade away if he doesn't bring the subject up / avoids all discussion. I suppose the reality is that if I was more sure of myself I would just keep on pushing like I have for the last few rounds. So perhaps I have to accept that this is really more about me than him. Same old same old. I don't feel I want to start another round but I can't quite move forward either. I'm glad you're having a lovely relaxing weekend but also that you've identified a time / place to talk. I think that's a really good approach. Is the status quo that he still doesn't want to go ahead? Taking his feelings out of it (which I know is unrealistic!), are you still totally keen to go for the FET?

Kat - I hope you got to enjoy a beer in the sunshine and you've had a great break in the mountains. How are you feeling at the moment? 

Cathryn / TT, how are you both doing today? I know I always find the mornings hardest at such times. Waking up and the whole sorry situation hitting you hard all over again. I really hope that day by day it gets a little bit easier. I guess you have to start with the small stuff and take it from there. If you're still in your pjs today then so be it! TT - are you going back to work as planned?

JBT and Moonshadow.... thinking of you both... 

Not much else to say right now. I guess it would be madness to sign up for tx right now. But in some ways it's just so tempting.... in a month I would know for good which way our lives are headed. I'm not sure that's a good enough reason. If we don't do it this month then we have to wait another couple of months so that will maybe give me the time I really need to live with the 'decision' a bit longer. Sigh. 

Take care all xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - what's another 3 months hey in the grand scheme if things? I have no idea what the effect of having a cycle you didn't want would be, but I think it would be hard. If your heart isn't in it then it'll be even harder for DH to be interested I'd have thought. Your camper sounds like our cabin (probably a similar size too lol). Pups water frequently freezes at night. He sleeps in a crate at home but he is allowed in the bed at the cabin to stay warm. He has one of my old jumpers to wear too if we arrive and it's below zero indoors. DH was xcountry skiing when I rescued him although I suspect it was beer that he wanted more than the rescue since its downhill all the way home from there. One say you should come over - xcountry from the door is too good to miss 

MrsP - you sound fab  Your are right about making rapid progress sometimes and then going nowhere at other times. Another important aspect is the fact that going backwards is a huge part too don't you think? Some days you feel like you could live childfree and other days its the most painful thought ever. Then one day you realise that you spend more time feeling ok being childfree than you spend being devastated over it. That's the day you realise that actually it'll be ok. 

Nosilab - big chat in the car sounds good. No eye contact means more openness and also no huge blazing row. I hope something good comes from it, which ever way good turns out to be xxx

Cathryn - how was your first glass of vino? I was having injections in my leg last week and the nurse couldn't believe I didn't flinch ....... injecting your own clexane makes a nurse injecting your leg pale into insignificance ;-)

TT - hope you are keeping your head above water xxx

My rescue of DH from the mountain was for him to have beer, not me :-( I'm still on opiates so no alcohol for me although I'll be clean again in 3 days. It was nice to sit out in the sun with a coffee though and just enjoy the view. And no, I shouldn't be driving on opiates either but its a private road and not very far either. I am physically doing ok, I've ditched the crutches and can do short walks (like round the shop) without sticks but I need them for anything more than the shop. I've massively over done it today though :-( DH and I are going through a tricky patch and I'm trying to be wonderwoman so as not to rock the boat, although to my knowledge, wonderwoman never had back surgery! My support team are all back from vacation tomorrow so hopefully I can get my nutcase treatment rolling again this week as I'm struggling without the support network. So in conclusion Janie and nosilab (I think it was you who asked), I'm ok. Pooch and I had a lovely time in the mountains and I'm making progress with my back 

In trouble with DH yet again so best find out what I've inadvertently done this time. It's amazing how bad I can be without even trying!

Love to all, a failed wonderwoman xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey Kat - well ditching the crutches for even short spells is surely progress so I think you should celebrate that. It sounds to me as though you are being pretty brave about a few things just now. I hope DH isn't giving you too hard a time. I know it will also be really tough for your DH just now and perhaps has been for a wee while but that's just the way things are in life sometimes. You sound like a great person and I'm sure that roles will reverse at some point. So don't be too hard on yourself... and definitely don't over do it... play for the long game Kat! Anyway, I'm glad you got out and I bet that coffee tasted good! I would love to come out to Norway some time... sounds absolutely lovely! I will have to tell DH that your pooch gets to sleep in the bed at your cabin...! Can't see him caving though... he's way more protective of the van than he is of our house! 

You're right, we're not in a place to start treatment. I guess it's just odd that I've now had more of a conversation with you about it than I have with DH today!

Hey ho!
xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie.  Ah ok, I see what you're saying.  Once again it sounds exactly like you're talking about my DH    By which I mean I know exactly how you feel as my DH is the same.  In fact I think DH actually admitted in our counselling session that he buries his head in the sand in the hope that the situation will go away - if only it were that simple eh!  If it was I'd bury my head straight away!!  He seems to think if it's not talked about it doesn't really exist and that all's right with the world.  My DH also seems to get very chatting in the sessions (despite his initial reluctance to go!) and then afterwards I feel hope....until reality sinks back in.  I've mentioned 'sessions' plural, only because in the past we've had Relate counselling, to get us off the start mark on the ttc journey, we've still only had the one session with our IF clinic.  Like you, if I was more sure myself I would without a doubt keep pushing, but the bottom line is I'm not sure and DHs reluctance makes me nervous.  Yes, I think he'll still say he doesn't want to go any further with tx when we have our chat, that's what I'm trying to prepare myself for anyway.  As you say, I  reality it's hard to take his feeling out of the situation, but....but if I could, then yes, I'd probably call the clinic tomorrow to plan a FET  

Kat, you're right, the 'no eye contact' will be good, and will certainly help with being able to be more open.  I just hope I don't cry as I'll be the driver - tears and crying not the best mix eh!  Really sounds like you're making great progress, which is brilliant.  It must be so frustrating that your support team are all away over the hols, it's not as though you suddenly don't need support just because it's Easter, I know everyone still needs their hols, but you'd think there'd be a back up team.  Anyway, my little rant (  ) won't change things but I'm glad you can get back on track with that side of treatment this coming week.  So sorry to hear the you and DH are going through a tricky patch, that's really sad.  I totally understand that you don't want to rock the boat, but please don't put your recovery at risk by trying to over do things by being Wonderwoman (btw, I absolutely loved Wonderwoman as a kid!).  Take heaps of care and you are most certainly not a failed Wonderwoman!  Far from it given what you've just gone through 

xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

PS Janie, I always talk to you ladies more than my DH, it's the same with my close friends at work.  I always refer to one particular friend as my surrogate DH as I pour my heart out to her far more than I do my actual DH, plus get more of a response.  Sad eh.  Oh, and I've told DH that's what I call the friend at work, we do laugh and joke about it mostly but deep down it makes me sad xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies, well we are back from our weekend in the "country" beach it rained every day! so ****** but managed to some sun in the mornings.. it's typical negril weather and it rains every Easter here! Even on our wedding day we got married during Easter years ago...

Nosilab I agree with you about talking to you ladies more than DH! 

Kat I am so happy you are feeling better and believe me you are not a failed Wonderwoman... far from it actually  

Mrs. P you sound so happy or maybe it's content but whatever it is you are in a good place... I am happy you found a new beginning and you have such a good relationship with your niece and nephew... i miss mine so much but I talk to one set more than the other but they are still very close to me and really wish we were closer together.

TT I hope ex mails your cd

Janie I know your talk in the car will do you some good I tried it but should have done it on the way back since it kinda put a damper on the weekend well for me at any rate....

Well i brought up 2 issues that are pressing in our lives IF and FIL... well the FIL issue won't be solved so I have to just suck that up! 

so on to the second issue IF, my failure... I asked about moving forward with FET long and short of it was very abrupt to the effect that we can't afford it because of another financial commitment now that doesn't have a time limit I DO I am not getting any younger and I wasn't saying we had to do it tomorrow but let us discuss when it would be possible... the convo ended right then... so now I just feel deflated I feel like we aren't on the same page with this... I can't even express how I feel really.. I just know that I am not feeling like wants to move forward... no discussion no hearing my feelings or views. So all weekend I had these two things on mind... thinking about how much life isn't where it should be at my age... job wise, home wise, family wise... everything if only we had the money I just feel so sad, mad and I don't want to start resenting him.

I can't even express how I feel right now, I just know IF sucks and my life sucks right now... I miss my family and I miss my best friend... I also asked him about counselling he says he doesn't need to go! sigh...

Sorry for the me post


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

PS and to top it off met some people at the resort and all one of them was on is you have kids? NO; you want kids? YES; so what you waiting on? didn't you guys discuss before? on and on about having kids and why we don't have yet... that ****** me off even more! people just don't know when to stop.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Morning all,

JBT - big hugs on the way, they should arrive by the time morning arrives with you xxx Maybe you could try a new tactic with DH. Perhaps approach it from a ´moving on´ perspective. Explain that for as long as you have frosties its going to make moving on childfree impossible because you have that hope in the back of your mind all of the time. I know that often its what keeps me going. I have a baby on ice waiting for me so I´ll never get complete closure probably. Maybe if you can try another angle and explain its all part of the drawing a line under tx he might decide its the right move. Maybe its a silly idea and I know its not as simple as I´ve made it sound but it seems you are in a rut for the time being. Thinking of you though  . And no man every need counselling 

Nosilab and Janie - My DH certainly doesn´t need counselling because he is a walking example of perfection  But, like yours he didn´t stop talking on the one session he did come too. It wasn´t a tx session at all and was supposed to be about helping me get on the straight and narrow again (it was a few years ago now) and he completely charmed my counsellor and I think I squeezed in about 10 words inbetween him and her chatting ............ about me mostly I think. I actually felt good about it during the session but then afterwards I felt completely let down by both of them, like she had taken his side and I was at fault for everything. My psychologist is keen to have a joint session with her but I don´t want it to destroy the relationship I have with her. Weird how they don´t need to talk about anything but then given half a chance they´ll talk the hind legs of a donkey! I´m not sure DH and I ever actually talked about stopping tx, I think it just happened.

Jen - catch up with you later after you´ve finished work 

Sorry for my melancholyness yesterday  . We´d just got back home to the real world and I was tired and sore I think. I´ve been thinking a lot about being childfree for the first time in ages. I decided that things needed to change so I made a real effort and engaged with lots of small kids while we were away (Norway is a bit different to the UK when it comes to chatting on the street) and each time I really really enjoyed the contact and I think it really lifted me. The I walked away and felt that terrible emptiness that I´ve not felt for a long long time. Now I´m not sure what to do. Cut myself off completely from all that might hurt, or enjoy the snippets of time I can get knowing that it´ll hurt afterwards? Then my friends Dad finally died over the weekend and I´m a bit worried about her. She is a friend from the loonybin and I am her safety net (as she is mine) but its been so draining being on the phone whenever she needs to talk. She has gone to the US for a few days for the funeral etc and I feel a bit mean being relieved that she is in another timezone for a week. On the plus side of life though I walked poochie today without sticks  . Its only along a flat road as he is still in rehab after his leg op but its quite a long way, almost a km I reckon. The dancing banana is maybe a bit of an exaggeration but its only a matter of time. I´m now going to attempt leg shaving as DH is refusing to do it. I suspect its going to be a disaster and involve patches on smooth skin and patches of the gorilla look  . Then I´m going on a big trip, its my practice for work tomorrow. I´m taking the bus to town to get rubber stoppers for my sticks now most of the ice has gone I don´t need my spikes any more. I might even go for coffee and a bun as a treat 

Love to everyone, 
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Something dawned on my in the shower (leg shaving was ok actually and as long as I wear long socks nobody will notice the missed bits   ), my big downer is maybe related to the fact that I am the only one out of my loonybin posse who hasn´t made it back to fulltime work. I know I know, don´t compare, but its hard not to. Anyway, going to go and beat myself with a big stick and try and stop that rubbish! No more melancholy [email protected] from me, I shall go and get cake instead


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Nordickat, I haven't shaved my legs in weeks AArrrggh. Have mens legs but who cares. Noone sees them!
Oh and im not back to work yet and still on anti dep... So your'e not alone xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey lovely ladies

I kept dropping in over Easter but have been having one of those periods where words wouldn't really come. so I've just lurked and kept tabs on you all  

I know I'm a bit late with the welcome, but welcome Cathryn. I guess none of us really wanted to end up on this thread, but at the same time I'm truly grateful I did. I might not be able to change what brought me here but sharing here has helped change how I feel about it, or at least reach a level of acceptance that I fought hard against for a long time. To read posts from others that feel to have come from your own heart makes it all that bit less lonely.

TT - I would certainly try and limit contact with your ex as much as possible. Dropping a cd off seems a pretty weak reason for him to disrupt your life and leave you on tenterhooks. Is there anyone you could ask to act as an intermediary, so that he contact them rather than you initially? He's hurt you enough already.

MrsP - I love your positivity, and your honesty. I have to admit to having been a bit in awe of the way you've coped with so many challenges, any one of which would be daunting and probably would have had me hiding under the duvet for a week! And yet underneath all that is that quiet sadness - you acknowledge it but seem to have largely overcome it. I hope you know how powerful a message that sends to us all.

JBT - I'm really sorry you've reached such an impasse. If only it was simply about money but it's not is it? The financial aspect is just another hurdle to climb but by no means the toughest. Is there no way you could come up with a plan that would allow you to put an amount away each month towards a FET? It's amazing how quickly small amounts start to add up. We've had to tighten our belts a lot lately with DH trying to set up a business and I know how hard it can be to make the money stretch but small steps can add up over time. It can be a bit scary if there's a figure you know you have to reach, coming up with that might seem impossible, but if you can break that down over several months does it start to feel more achievable? Just thoughts...

Kat - well done on the leg shave!! I reckon that alone warrants coffee and cake   Joking aside, these are all milestones in your recovery and as you reclaim each one it's a step back towards where you want to be. I know that depression can be a complicated beast but I don't doubt that physical health has an huge impact on mental health and hopefully as you regain physical strength and mobility it will have a positive impact. Maybe you've not made it back into full-time work yet, but you will, and today you have hair-free legs   Don't beat yourself up too much for feeling a tad melancholy today, if we all did that we'd need to bulk order the self-flagellation sticks (I guess we'd maybe get a discount at least?). I'm sorry to hear things are difficult between you and DH, is it possible you're reading too much into things? I only ask as it's something I do (a lot!), I assume that because DH is distant, or grumpy, that it's my fault and I try harder to be perfect. More often than not it's nothing to do with me and all my efforts are wasted (or actually end up irritating DH!). Just a thought... 

It sounds like you're testing yourself a bit by having contact with children, why shouldn't you come away from that feeling saddened? Maybe you have accepted that you won't be parents but acceptance doesn't mean it can't still hurt and after years of trying; I'd have been surprised if it hadn't stirred up some difficult emotions. But recognise that this is still a step forward - I'm still firmly in the 'avoid all babies/small children' (unless related) camp.

Janie - your time away sounds amazing! Despite the cold I'm very jealous... It does sound like you're in a bit of a confusing place at the minute though, and that perhaps some time away from trying to make decisions might be no bad thing. I know that 3 months can feel like an eternity when it comes to tx, but as Kat says - in the grand scheme of things... My DH would probably be very similar to yours (and Nosilab's, and Kat's) if we ever made it to joint counselling. I suspect he'd be chatty, say all the right things but then never speak of it again afterwards. Like you say, it's not that he's lying, it's more that it would just be easier if it all went away. 

The highs and lows you talk about resonate with me. I remember talking about this with my psychologist (before she disappeared on maternity leave - ouch!) and she helped normalise it a bit. I can't begin to explain it as eloquently as she did (she drew diagrams for a start) but basically we all have our own range of emotions. We can feel happy or sad (or anywhere in between). When we're placed under excessive pressures we can be pushed outside those normal ranges and experience emotions at either extreme - from feeling numb and emotionally flat (or angry, or depressed) to feeling almost euphoric. Those external pressures force us out of our normal range and the effects can last longer than those initial pressures. At the time we were discussing this I felt like my emotional responses were off the chart! One minute I was caught up planning something exciting, feeling positive and energised but then something would knock me back and I'd crash, I'd get really angry over nothing, or break down over something that was seemingly trivial. It took a long time to admit all that to her, I was convinced I was going mad but actually they were all normal reactions to an abnormal set of circumstances (a well worn phrase for many counsellors/psychologists!). I don't know if any of that helps, but I wanted to share and say that what you're experiencing is normal, and that in time things will even out.

Nosilab - I'm really pleased you and DH had a chilled weekend, probably just what you needed. It sounds like a good plan to designate a time and place to chat some more, and that you will have the distraction of driving. I do hope you'll have the time and space to deal with any difficult emotions that crop up though, it wouldn't be ideal if you were (for example) driving to spend time with in-laws (which in itself often drives me to tears...). And yes, it is sad that we can't share all that we do here with DH's. Whenever mine sees that I'm logged on to FF he makes a sharp get away - I think he worries I might want to talk to him about what I post here.

Anyways, I think that's a catch up! I've had a fairly quiet weekend; a stroll along the coast, a meal out, watched a band, went to the cinema and our fortnightly pub quiz last night saw us come second! And I made banana bread for the first time ever, yum.

Jen xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning Ladies:

Thanks Kat and Jen. 

Kat I have tried all angles, trust me. I am still of the view that it is not as important to DH because he already has a child and cannot truly understand what I am going through. This does not mean that he doesn't want kids with me but I think it is just that it is not as pressing for him as it is for me. This is my belief not sure if I am correct. He has also expressed that he hates what IVF does to me, drugs, appointments and then disappointment and the roller coaster of hormones etc. I guess because he is my support since none of my family lives here, he gets it all!

Jen: My intention of the convo with DH was to set a realistic timeline and hence know what we can and cannot afford on a monthly basis to set aside. I know every mickle mek a muckle as we say here. I have been very aware of that aspect since I am the one who deals with most of the bills on a monthly basis. It is extremely difficult to set aside anything but I am willing to put down a small amount every month to reach our goal. But it seems like there will always be something else financially that pushes our goal of another tx aside. Soon it will be the financial obligation of ss who lives in the states and therefore demands of foreign exchange is great! As you said there is more to it than just financial. 

Truth is I am not happy, I am not in a place I want to be at the age I am at. I guess MrsP summed it up quite nicely and her words have really rung true in my head. However I think my confusions stems from the fact that I just don't think I have had enough tx in my mind to say I have given it my all and it's time to jump off the IVF funbus as MrsP puts it. I don't know, I do know I am not happy and I hate how I feel. Someone said said time ago that they just want to get back to their old self what ever that is. I just want to be happy and actually feel like I want to get out of bed in the morning to go to a job that I can at least tolerate. 

Anyway I promised myself I would not have a pity party and adopt Kat's write 3 positive things down each day. Well the first positive for today is I am awake and walking, second I at least have a job, third my mom is on the mend and has life. Now Kat I am not sure if I need to write 3 positives about me or about life in general but this is a start right?

Thanks again ladies.


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## cathryn0308 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hi All


Sorry I wasn't around much yesterday.  I am getting the impression from all the posts over the last day or so that everyone's mood seems to be a bit off at the moment, and I'm afraid I am just in a really big p***** off mood at the moment, so I guess I am not going to cheer anyone up either.


I am just so angry at everything over the last 24 hours.  I am fed up with DH, although I haven't said anything to him.  I am fed up that I am the only one who does anything in our house, that if I didn't cook, clean, wash and go shopping nothing would happen.  I am fed up and feel angry that I don't think DH has really taken any of the treatments seriously enough.  All he has ever seemed worried about is having to cut down on his evening glass of wine, he has a real inability to see that it is not good for him to drink every night, particularly when he has an extremely low sperm count.  I am angry that they took ages during this IMSI cycle to find grade 1 sperm, 45 mins in a small sample to find 9 grade 1 sperm says to me that his sperm were not good this time, and I think its because he didn't take the pregnacare vitamins every day as I asked him to.  What does that say?  That either he is stupid, or he just doesn't want it as much as me, or he is burying his head in the sand.  I am fed up that our house after 4 years, still looks like a building site.  I am fed up that if I don't organise us of a weekend, he would end up sitting in front on the tv or on his playstation playing games.  I am just fed up, in case you hadn't guessed.


Oh and the witch is on her way, currently sitting here with mild tummy ache, waiting for the cramps to hit big time, so that I can take the tramadol that they gave me to take home after the egg collection.  Might as well have some benefit and get high on some painkillers!!!


Sorry for the rant, I guess I am just in one of those moods today.


TT -  I am glad that your ex didn't show up the other night, and I think its a good idea that you have said he can pick up/drop stuff off at your parents.  I don't think you need him upsetting you anymore than he already has at the moment.


JBT - I totally get that you are not happy, and that you are not in the place you want to be.  I know exactly how you feel.  This is not where I expected to be at 38.  I didn't expect to still be in my job 8 years down the line, I thought I'd be there for a couple of years and then I'd get pregnant and that would be that.  Instead I have stayed in the same place to ensure that if I got pregnant I would qualify for the maternity benefits etc, and also because its near to where I have had treatment.  Doesn't it feel sometimes like your whole life is just geared about getting over a cycle or preparing for a cycle or going through a cycle?  I think I also need to adopt Kat's write 3 positive things a day, yours was a good start, I need to work on mine.


MrsP -  you are quite inspirational and I hope that I can get to the same place as you over the next few months.  Am i right in thinking that you have moved down South?  Or is it that you have moved up North?  Hope the new job is still going well.


Jen - thanks for the welcome, I totally get what you mean that no-one wants to end up on this thread, but all of you have been so nice, and I really feel I can vent and that you don't judge and understand etc.  


Kat - hurray for the leg shaving, I'm glad to hear that you really seem to be on the mend with your leg.  I think you are allowed to feel a bit melancholy you've had to deal with quite a lot recently, and being pumped full of various painkillers probably doesn't help with a positive vibe.


Hello and    to everyone else.


I just want to say thanks to all of you for being here over the last few days, you have no idea how much I have appreciated just being able to say how I am feeling to a lovely bunch of ladies who know where I am coming from.    


Right, I am going to get on with tidying up my house and dumping loads of paper in the recycling bin and doing some shredding!!!
Cathryn xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Cathryn - feel free to have a DH rant, although my DH does do a bit round the house he lives in a fantasy world whereby he thinks occasionally doing the washing up and hoovering a couple of times a year equate to an equal share (actually he does do a bit more than that but I still do the lion's share). 

As for taking multivitamins - we had a blazing row over this last year. He felt it was unnecessary for him to take a daily multivitamin (even though when we first met he took one every day until convinced him that healthy eating was a better option). He blamed the multivitamin on everything from constipation to low libido (Constipation?! I wish! He's as regular as clockwork and as revenge I made cauliflower soup which soon sorted his bowels out!). After yet again patiently explaining that the multivitamin he was taking was specially formulated to boost sperm production only for him to refuse to take one I threw them in the bin - he called me ridiculous and I stormed out after pointing out that he ought to try having to sniff, swallow, inject and shove pessaries up his bum if he thought I was ridiculous. Fortunately he did see the error of his ways... though don't get me started on the battle to get him to drink less  

You're not alone, I do love my DH but there are times when I could swing for him (in fact I did tell him I fantasised about whacking him over the head with a griddle pan, he seemed shocked but I pointed out it was far better that it only ever played out in my head).

I don't mean to make light of this as I know it can be really hurtful, and downright frustrating - it does good to let off steam here...

Jen


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## Rowan22 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi everybody,
I won't ask if you all had decent Easters, I've been reading the postings and it sounds like a real mixed bag! I've been the same, emotionally up and down and spent half of last night crying (why do the emotions always hit in the middle of the night?)
I can sympathise with your feelings about your dhs because mine is exactly the same. The house would never ever get cleaned if it was left to him and I hate to think what would happen if I was ever really ill and stuck in bed for weeks. I don't think the pets would get fed either, though the cats tend to make a lot of noise if they're hungry and nobody's paying attention!
I just don't think men get the fact that houses don't run themselves. Mine will do housework but I have to ask and then start nagging, which I hate. It must be in their genes, or something.
And yes, mine's been exactly the same about any form of tx. Bury head in sand, ignoring wife sobbing her heart out. All he can see is the cost and the poor odds of it ever working. He does give hugs, though and our childless state isn't his fault, it's my body that never worked. 
Cathryn   Take the painkillers now, I would. 
Kat, great to see you up and about and being able to walk without crutches! I hope you get the support you need. Holidays do make it difficult.
Hi to everybody else. Hope our moods begin to improve. It's been a lovely sunny day here which does help.

Rowanxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

evening ladies...

JBT - every time I read your posts it strikes me how in limbo you are. I can literally feel your frustration at feeling stuck in your life and how you aren't where you thought you would be at 40. I'm not sure I have any real words of wisdom for you but I can totally empathise. And I think that is why getting to a point of closure is so important because right now you're not really able to move wholeheartedly forward with anything - particularly anything that is yours. For me, trying to figure out an alternative career path has been pretty critical to my getting to a point of considering moving on from treatment. As I've said before, I don't give two hoots about having a 'career' as such but if I'm not going to have children then I need another way of getting some meaning in my day-to-day life. Perhaps I'm being naively optimistic and it's not going to be as rewarding as I think but it's a wholesale change and that is what I need. But I know, it takes a bit of cash. We are going to be seriously broke if I do give up my job for the 2 years it takes to retrain. But without this option all I would see would be a gaping hole and I know I would cling on to more treatment as the only option. At least I have some control over this. Do you have any ideas for things you might like to do? Is there anything you could get excited about? Would DH be more supportive of this sort of moving forward than that involving more treatment? I know the bottom line is that you want to be a mum and I really really hope that DH rallies and you can move forward with treatment. But perhaps it would be good to really start working on a genuine plan B, just in case? I'd love to hear any ideas you have. 

Cathryn - sounds like you've had the same job frustrations. I've been in the same job for 12 years. I have been in it for about the last 6 years for no other reason than because of the possible maternity leave etc. In an almost hilarious twist, they have recently announced they are slashing our Ts&Cs and maternity cover is part of what is getting axed.  I think so many of us struggling with our jobs because we have stuck with things we wouldn't have done otherwise because of the promise of maternity leave etc. And then suddenly we're 40 and no further forward but not only is time running out for babies but it also feels like time is running out to sort other aspects of life. I have friends who had their kids at 35 and so now their kids are in school and they are retraining and will shortly be all sorted with 6/7 year olds and a new career at an age that they are still young enough to be a viable prospect. It's just another way that people who aren't affect by IF don't understand how hard this is. One of my friends made a comment a while ago when I mentioned changing career. She rolled her eyes and said something like 'oh yeah, you and changing career... that old chestnut'. I could literally have hurt her right then. She knows how stuck I have been but I think people sometimes just don't stop and really think about it. I am definitely slowly losing the anger. I think I just have slightly lower expectations of people now.

And as for your comments about how flippant DH has been about vits etc. I think so many of us can feel your pain. Alcohol... sigh. I don't have the will to fight that battle any more. I suppose in our situation though the problem in reality is with me and not DH so there seems little point nagging. I really do feel for you. You must be so frustrated and feel let down by the lack of long-sightedness. If it makes you feel less alone, my DH is currently sitting on his tablet watching movies of all sorts of nonsense on youtube.... in a way that only men ever seem to do. I feel pretty depressed that this is the kind of quality time he feels he might miss out on if we had a baby. Sigh. He actually just did a Beavis and Buthead style laugh. Sigh again. It just drives me back towards the clinic. I'm not surprised you're feeling angry at the world. You've been dealt a cruddy hand and it sucks and you have every right to be angry. I guess just try and make sure you don't waste too many emotions on the wrong things. After my last BFN I became almost obsessively angry about a few individual comments people had made etc. I churned them over and made myself feel like crap for weeks. Thinking of you.   

Jen, lovely to hear from you as always. I read what you said about the highs and lows of emotions with interest. That makes some sense. Still, for now, even feeling what are probably verging on slightly 'manic' highs feels better than the almost constant ache of dulled sadness I've experienced for the last few years feels like a step forward. You sound chilled just now, I hope it stays that way.  

Kat - I wonder whether what you are experiencing around children is just part of the healing process. I mean that you even felt able to engage is surely a positive thing and maybe gradually it won't hurt so much afterwards? I really don't know because I'm not there yet. And maybe from your reflection that your sadness was more about where you were in relation to others returning to work means that's not really what's getting to you? I hope the trip into town was a success ... especially on the cake front... and your return to work goes well tomorrow. I'm actually amazed you're going anywhere near work yet?

Rowan, Nosilab, TT and everyone else I've missed just now... am thinking of you all....

AFM - tx deadline has passed. I didn't sleep last night wondering whether to just go for it. So now I have a longer period to get my head around it. I'vce been up and down about it all day. At one point I felt I'd made a terrible mistake and just wished I'd booked a scan. At other points I was thinking excitedly about all the other great things we can do in life. So, yeah, am still confused.


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi ladies,

Sorry I've been AWOL for a while, since I got back from my ski trip I've been flat out at work and organising DH's 40th birthday party for this coming weekend.  I'm off to a conference tomorrow for the rest of the week, but wanted to quickly pop in and say hello before I go.

Kat - it sounds like you've had a terrible time of it lately, although I am so pleased to hear that they finally saw sense and gave you the op that you so clearly needed urgently.      And well done on the epic leg shave!   

JBT -   .  I know exactly how you feel struggling to get out of bed some days, sometimes it feels hard to see what the point of it all is.  I'm sorry that DH isn't willing to discuss your FET at the moment, I find I really have to choose my timing carefully to speak to DH about tx now as I think he is past caring whether we do any more and is really doing it for me.  That makes me worry about whether I should be pushing him to continue, but I do believe that if it ever happened for us he would be delighted, he's just told himself that it will never happen because it's easier for him to deal with that way.  I just wish I could tell myself the same thing and finally have the courage to give up on this crazy journey, but I have a lot failures under my belt.  If I were in your situation, particularly with frosties waiting for me, I would want to give them my best shot, just as you do.  So I   that you can make your DH understand how important this is for you.

Rowan - big hugs hun, I'm there with you on the midnight crying!  It's amazing how it can just sneak up on you when you have any time to yourself to think about things.

Cathryn - welcome   .  I'm with you on the staying in a job in case I get pg thing - ironically a lot of people who know me professionally assume that I am this super career-focussed woman but that is just because I bury myself in my work to try and forget about what I don't have.  If I got pg I'd give up my job in a heartbeat to stay at home and be a mum.

So as I'm here, hope you don't mind if I join in the DH rant, as although mine is quite good on the cooking & cleaning front (he even does the ironing when the Formula 1 is on!!) he like so many of your DH's doesn't seem to think that his smoking (yes, after 9 failed IVFs I did say that he has still been smoking   ) makes any difference to his sperm quality.  The annoying thing is that repeated sperm tests have proved that he is right.  He's had every test going and apparently has super sperm, while I pop every supplement under the sun, have acupuncture, eat healthily, no alcohol etc and my eggs are s***.  How's about that for fair?!  I know I should be grateful that at least we don't have to worry about sperm issues, and I am happy to say that DH has recently stopped smoking (for the millionth time, we'll see how long it lasts this time) but he did so because he is a keen cyclist and wanted to improve his times, as his friend is currently faster than him.  Good to know that that has motivated him, when us having our own baby didn't!!!

Well that's all from me for now.   to you all ladies and although I don't post often, thank you for keeping me sane.

 waikiki


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi waikiki thanks, glad to hear from you. Sounds like we have all stayed in our jobs for benefits we can't use  

Janie i have been doing a lot of thinking about re tooling and career options. DH is supportive of me going back to school more so than encouraging us to do another tx. I think the reality is if I go back to school or change jobs it means delaying tx and that is scary but on the flip side i know it's what will help make me a happier person. So it's catch 22. So i have been pursuing a new job, school, school, possible tx so whichever pans out first is the direction I'll take. It's a little sad that this where I have reached to make a decision. 

Even my walking has suffered    I must get back into it though. It did kind of help but i think i was pushing myself too hard and i started getting bored. But i will have to set a plan and stick with it.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Welcome back Waikiki. Sorry but I did laugh a bit at your DH giving up smoking to beat his friend on his bike. That is such a boy thing to do   

On the men front, I think you are all expecting far too much of your DHs with regard to tx. Remember if you can't see it, smell it, touch it or taste it, well it just doesn't exist. If IF showed itself as big manky wart on our/their heads then they would get it but sadly its not like that and it all goes on unseen in our bodies, therefore it is not real. Holding a baby in their arms is what makes tx a reality but until that point they can't get their heads round it. They are just made differently to us I guess ..... although in some ways that probably a very good thing   . Set your expectations lower, way way lower, and that way you'll not be disappointed   

Anyway, I'm ducking out of the chat for a while but I'll be back when I can. I'm just emotionally drained at the moment and so have nothing constructive to say and need to fix myself before I can add others to the mix. I'll be thinking of you all though. Look after yourselves and each other and catch up soon.

Katxxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi Ladies x
I TOTALLY agree with you nordikat. A baby wouldn't be real till they SEE it.
JMBaby, My partner didn't like what all the fertility drugs did to me. I did go bit crazy on the synarel!   I was crying, shouting, then next minute I would be fine. ( its showing me what I would be like through menopause Grrrr)
My paertner too was told he had so called 'super sperm' though he doesn't smoke, he DID drink. ..But I got him to stop for week before EC ( sperm-needed) 
Anyway, cant talk about him anymore. Hes gone and I hate him!!! 
I'm actually thinking of getting a puppy!!!! ... what do you ladies think??!!
 to all xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Pretend i'm not here ;-) I remembered something i wAnted to say yesterday. I did write it once this morning already but lost it when i had to go get pooch out of the bamboo plant.......... again! I don't think he has aspirations of being a panda, its just that our thaw is taking a loooong time and the only greenery that has emerged so far for him to eat is the bamboo! TT puppies are v v v time consuming but very soon become the light of your life.

So, what I wanted to tell you, especially Cathryn, was about my bfp cycle. DH has shocking sperm and had always taken the vitD I told him to on our previous bfn cycles. We stopped tx forever after 3 goes so lived a somewhat alcohol fueled existence for a bit. We then decided to try again but first had the most fab 6 week vacation in Japan eating, drinking and doing what we wanted. We came home and had our 1st appt at a new clinic. We were still living the highlife expecting 6 months or so til tx started. To our shock we started a cycle 2 weeks later!! We had no time to detox and no point in taking vits when ec was only 4 weeks away. It turned out to be our best cycle ever and sperm were even good enough, for the first and only time, to do an ICSI/IVF split. I was pg with an IVF and an ICSI baby. My point being that maybe taking vits isn't the most important thing in the world and maybe state if mind plays a big roll. We were happy and then we got a bfp  Having said that though, I'm a firm believer in taking the path if least regret and in all cycles that followed we took all the vits we could just in case I regretted not taking them.

That little tale was probably of no interest to anyone lol but thanks for reading it. It was a good distraction for me as I'm waiting for a psych assessment with the psychologist and psychiatrist which always makes me very scared and feel very small. I hate psychiatrists, they scare me silly as they sit there reading my mind!

Over and out. Take care one and all.
Katxxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

I understand what you're saying nordi. We got bfp 1st try. I only took pregnacare. Most 'normal ' people get pregnant without any of the added extras we throw in. 
Good luck with appointment   xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

A few things:

Kat - Just to say hope things go well during your 'time out'.  You think I'm strong - you seem cast iron to me! Good luck with everything and hope to hear from you again soon.  I really have appreciated your advice on this thread xx

Jen - I think I need a positivity burst today!  I think this post will prove even I have off days - I hope it's just a day though!

I think I'd explained after 4 IVF tries I was off the treatment wagon, but just wanted to max out my fertility hopes naturally - or at least with the help of Mr Metformin (for PCOS) and Mr Levothyroxine (for Thyroid).  Today was about trying to get a private or NHS prescription for both and, despite being told by one doc that the 'Metformin would be no problem' given I have a PCOS diagnosis ON FILE, I was referred to another GP who denied me both - leaving me with a threat of 'checking' my PCOS status, dumb questions such as 'you are against any more IVF treatment then?' to which I replied 'I'm broken by it - I can't take anymore', the GP wanting advice from a fertility specialist first - despite THREE months of me getting my ARGC consultant to verify the thyroid issue.  Sheesh!!  And then - the gold star for the comment - 'these aren't standard treatments for infertility' and 'is it just ovulation that's an issue' - I don't know - READ MY NOTES STUPID!!!

Anyway, I know we don't talk treatment on these pages as such - but you can I'm sure understand why I've spent the last half hour in tears given I took the day off to sort this out!

And the job - itself it is ok, nothing I can't handle, but the team I'm in is in disarray.  One person is off long term sick with stress, the remaining 'doers' are death-eaters... honestly, they are really negative, don't seem to want to teach me my job as they are scared I'll take it off them (it's an environment where most of the IT support work goes to off-shore or IT partners to do).  In some ways I can't blame them, but it's a nightmare to handle.  So that's my peers - my boss - there are 2 - one who handles the line management, has been in the team 3 weeks longer than me and has no technical expertise, the other has lots of technical expertise, interviewed me and seems really welcoming - but he might be off to let the other one in.  In honesty I feel like doing cycle no 5 would be a piece of cake compared to handling this lot.

It might be just week 2 blues - but I have an instinct something isn't right and the last thing I need is a load of hassle right now!

On the plus side - I'm off to the Peak District for walkies this weekend - the other reason for a day off - lets hope I don't do my ankles in...!  And my best mate and baby are coming over to go out for lunch.  So hopefully my mood will improve.

Gotta pack though, so love to everyone else - apols for the me post - just needed to vent to people who understand 

Love Mrs P xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Work sounds a nightmare MrsP. Hope you have a nice break in Peak District. Its beautiful there and weather is meant to be getting better this weekend! Enjoy and blow thoses cobwebs away   xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks TT - do you have any plans for this weekend?


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

JBT
not been on here much lately due to the fact that i have nothing to say but whilst scanning thr this morning i read your post about u not been happy with where u are at the moment and the feelings of your dh with regards to treatment and i have to say i feel EXACTLY the same.
we are no longer having treatment and i don't honestly know if we'll have it again and it has caused huge problems between dh and me.  Like yourself i don't feel ready to give up on ivf and its not as important to dh as it is to me.  At the mo he said he doesn't want to do treatment and i'm upset cos i feel like he may have taken away my last chance to carry a baby. I have ended up the last few months taking this all out on my dh and as a result we are on the verge of separating.  i realise that my actions have led to this but at the same time i feel i'm trying to come to terms with no babies and i just can't at the minute. i was telling my dh that ivf was more important than him and now i know that i don't want to lose him but i was trying to show him how much ivf means to me but i shouldn't have said those things.  
i am now really trying to make things work and not rock the boat but we'll have to see what happens.  My dh won't make any plans for the future holidays for this year etc cos i think he doesn't think we will last.  What i do know like yourself is that i'm not happy dh thinks its cos i'm not happy with him but i think its more not happy with my life as a whole and how it has turned out.  Having a baby should be the most natural thing in the world but it seems to be the hardest thing ever now - not how i had ever hoped it would be.  
anyway just thought i'd reply to your message as it struck a cord with me.
 
set55


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

MrsP- no plans really. My brother usually comes over on a saturday, so hoping he will stay over like he did last week. 
Have placed the odd pound on couple of horses for grand national tomorrow! He He!
Then will go back to how it used to be and go to my parents for sunday lunch xx
Set55- I know its awful the strain that IVF etc puts on relationships. I hope you manage to talk things through and sort things out. We DO say things we regret in the heat of the moment. Don't punish yourself for this. You're only human   xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Clearly my time out isn´t quite going to plan since I´m back again, but after this post I´m gone 

I had an interesting talk with DH last night which may offer some insight into our DHs and their thoughts on counselling  . I had forgotten that DH had been to see my previous psychologist on his own. It was a session to make him feel I was safe and to help him to help me. DH is a very different sort of person to me and his self confidence is sky high and his self belief is admirable (although somewhat frustrating occasionally  ). He said last night that he didn´t understand why I didn´t come from counselling feeling on top of the world. I questioned why he thought I should and he reminded me of his session and that he felt great afterwards. We established that the reason he felt so indestructible afterwards was because he had had 50 minutes of somebodys undivided attention in which to big himself up and tell them how great he was  . Maybe its just my DH, or maybe its what everyone is like if they are happy with the way things are. If you have a DH who ´knows´ that you shouldn´t have anymore IVF, then maybe they are going into counselling with the wrong outlook so won´t get the same out of it as we do as women who just need to talk to somebody about our feelings. We all seem to have counselling because we have doubts about things, our DHs don´t have doubts because they have decided what they want already. Just a thought ............

TT - reading your posts now compared to your first ones on here, you are a very different person now and its good to see  . I know you still hurt but its clear that you are heading in the right direction now.

Set - have you tried writing a letter to DH so you can properly explain how you feel. Maybe he would even write to you as well. When you first posted on here you said your DH didn´t want anymore tx while you weren´t getting on but it didn´t sound like a never again thing, more he just wanted you to be friends again first which is fair enough. Maybe writing to each other will help end all the anger you both have and allow you to love each other again. Once your relationship is back on track maybe you can bring tx back into the equations again. Obviously I don´t know either of you so I´m only going by what I remember you posting and I could be way off the mark here 

MrsP - Hang in there are work, it might turn out you are just the person to get the place back on track again. And as for GPs and consultants, well    , they are all the same in my humble opinion. Did I tell you they accidentally overdosed me with morphine when the physio came round for my discharge in hospital? She decided there was no point in talking to me because I was so out of it (she was right there!) so decided not to bother and I was discharged with no advice on what I should or shouldn´t be doing! Oh, and if you had seen my performance over the last few days you would withdraw your cast iron comment pretty flipping quick I can tell you.

Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Just a nice lunchtime with best friend - she gave me lots of good advice - telling me, like Kat, to hang in there.  And we agreed that consultants and GPs are full of it... 

So now I can go on holiday this weekend without feeling bad.  I think.  It might eek in a bit over the next few days - but hey, I can do this!!

Have a good weekend everyone xxx


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## Hemera (Aug 30, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I'm a bit nervous about posting as I've not been on here before so apols if I'm in the wrong place or get the etiquette wrong! Over the past 24 hours the posts I've read on here have been a lifeline, I was feeling so alone, but reading your posts I know I'm not.

There is so much I want to say, but that would make this a very long post! In a nutshell, I was late meeting my DH (36). We started trying tx (is that right?!) almost straight away, nothing happened. Given our ages (he's older than me) I wanted to get tested sooner rather than later. I could talk at length about the awful testing experience but the end result is the crucial bit, DH was fine. I wasn't. We felt pressurised into IVF by the clinic, but we haven't taken that route and won't, only because for us it wouldn't be right. Since being told I was unlikely to conceive naturally I have had one BFP. We lost our baby at 6 weeks, a year ago this week. Since then nothing. I have taken clomid, which has apparently worked, but without the outcome we wanted. I have had a break from clomid but am thinking about going back on it again. My DH is worried that I keep moving the goalposts, and he's right, I do. I turned 40 two weeks ago. I had previously said that, that would be a deadline. But I'm not ready to stop, not yet. What if I never am? All around me my friends all have babies, two born this month. The year I got married, three of my friends got married also. They all have babies now. They are 7/8 years younger than me. 

I am sad, angry, bitter, hysterical, hopeless but I am also able to find a great deal of happiness in my life. It's certainly not all doom and gloom, just sometimes I would like to take a break from my life. Why has this happened to me, why has this happened to us?

Everyone (bar one now ex friend) has been lovely to me. Everyone tries so hard to be nice and to understand, and I feel a total b**ch because it is the very fact of how their lives have turned out (and mine hasn't) that feels like my nose is constantly being rubbed in it, whilst the knife is twisted.

Re-reading this post I sound a lot more negative than I feel. I know that I have a lot to be thankful for, at one point I never thought I'd be anything other than a single girl, but I'm finding things hard to take at the moment. Thanks to all who have posted, you've already helped me.

H x


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

H - big hugs coming your way and I'm glad you found us xxx Having lots to be grateful for doesn't take away the heartache of losing a baby and the thought of never having another chance. 
Katxxx


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Hemera said:


> . We felt pressurised into IVF by the clinic, but we haven't taken that route and won't, only because for us it wouldn't be right.


can i ask why?


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

H - ditto to what Kat said...     this thread has helped a lot of us especially me.. these ladies are pretty wise, me not so much... the good thing about your post is that you said you are generally happy, I too was on clomid in the beginning and it worked I did get a bfp however ended in an ectopic twice so I am very sceptical about clomid. Is there any reason you are against IVF? If it is too personal or don't think you want to answer I will understand. Ladies I hope it's ok to ask that question? You are not alone when you say you are angry, sad etc it's natural we all have been there and some of us are still there. I don't know if the feelings pass as I am still angry and frustrated with my body especially once a month when I am reminded that once again my body has failed me. Anyway have a great weekend, have a glass of vino (that's our answer to a lot   oh and dessert)

btw Kat I am making a Lemon Yogurt Cake this weekend   will tell you how it turns out. And ladies I am returning to my walking routine tomorrow! will keep you posted on that one

Kat - how are you feeling my lovely? 

Sorry I have been quiet just much of the same and don't want to be a downer  

Set55: this IVF thing is hard, I agree with Kat again (boy she should be the counsellor) that becoming friends again may be your answer. As you have seen in my previous posts I agree with what you are saying with regards to not being happy in general not that you are unhappy with DH... A letter is a good idea, but not for me personally as I express myself better in speech and not in writing. Anything is worth a try once you are willing, if your heart is not into it it just won't work.    

Mrs P sorry to hear that your job so far is blah... but hang in there perhaps you will learn something new and you may very well be the one to turn things around there.

You know ladies as much as I hate this saying sometimes it is so true "everything in life happens for a reason" we may not know what it is at the time but soon enough we'll see. I am still feeling very torn and the economic situation of this country is not looking very good so that too contributes to your overall disposition. 

have a great weekend, I may not post but I am reading


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## Hemera (Aug 30, 2012)

Hi all,

Thanks for making me feel so welcome! I have to admit it has made me cry, but in a good way!

Re the decision about IVF. I know these things are very personal and I really, really hope I don't offend. I know the right decision is different for everyone. For me it's a long story and it's not. One of my best friends had IVF a good few years ago, in my single days! I saw how it affected her and her husband, and it stayed with me. My DH and I talked about IVF well before we knew we had a problem, sorry, before we knew that I have a problem, and made a decision then about what we would and wouldn't do. I can admit that I've wavered about that decision, but not seriously. I think my DH and I are so joyful to have found each other at all, I was 37 (I said 36 before, oops!) he was 45 when we met, that we decided that we wanted to put 'us' first. I'm not sure that makes sense and again I reiterate please, I hope I've not offended anyone. It's no comment on anyone else's decision, just what feels right for us. I have questioned that maybe I just don't want a baby enough, but given the state I get in most months, I'm pretty sure that's not true. 

There are lots of other things too; my test results to an extent don't add up. The clinic told me from my blood results that I didn't ovulate...the month I got pregnant. My cycle is like clockwork, you can set a timer by it, but apparently I'm not ovulating. My temps are so low I should be dead most of the time. I'm just a little sceptical about what I'm told I 'need', I work in healthcare which both helps and hinders...

I can't believe how much I'm already telling you ladies! I totally agree that everything happens for a reason and I feel optimistic that in the long run, the marathon of life, I will look back and feel that being child free was the best outcome for me and DH. In the short term, the sprint, it's hard if not impossible to see that.

I'm not quite up to speed with who's who just yet so for now I'll just say have a wonderful weekend to you all!

H x


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all

I've been lingering and lurking (for a change!) but just wanted to pop in again before the weekend.

H - we're not easily offended here so don't worry, I don't think anything you've said so far will upset anyone. You disclose only what you're comfortable with and you certainly don't have to justify any of your choices here. I would guess that JBT asked as a way of letting you know that it's okay to talk about things here, if you want to. I think we can all relate to the impact it has on a relationship; I for one can definitely see why that would be enough to give you second thoughts about IVF. It can be brutal. 

I would agree that sometimes clinics are quick to jump to IVF. I know my age was a factor in my clinic 'encouraging' us to have IVF, as it turned out it was our best hope as other factors were then picked up but at the time there didn't seem to be any obvious reasons why we hadn't conceived. Like you I was told I probably wasn't ovulating but I'm not convinced that was necessarily true, I have PCO but without any symptoms and have always been pretty regular. 

Anyway, I digress (and waffle!). I think a lot of us will understand the sadness that comes from seeing friends have children, it can really hurt in a way I could never have understood unless I'd felt it.

Set - I don't think I know of any men (though I'm sure there are some out there, maybe?!) that feel the same need/longing to have a child. I never thought I would to be honest and it shocked me how powerful that feeling was. I can't think of anything else in my life that has felt the same, so perhaps it's no wonder that they just can't get it. I'm not trying to say that it doesn't hurt that they don't, or that we should just throw our hands in the air and accept it, but I doubt any of our partners want us to hurt the way we have. It doesn't sounds like you're questioning whether you want to be with DH, more that you're angry and hurt that he's taking your chance to be a parent away. It's a horrible situation to be in and it's completely understandable that you feel the way you do. I know there have been times when it's felt like me and DH have been close to separating through all this and it can be hard to figure out how to move forward. I know what worked for us is being able to talk honestly - often that involved admitting that things we had said had been said in anger or because we were hurting or scared. There were a lot of apologies from both of us and although things aren't perfect now, they're better than they were. I wish I had some wise words for you, be gentle with yourself.

MrsP - how are you doing? The work situation sounds tough, I've had to cope with people protecting their territory and it's not  nice but hopefully they'll start to relax after a while. You did make me chuckle about the death eaters comment - I know a few of those types, they literally suck the joy from life! Enjoy the weekend, it sounds like the perfect antidote...

Kat - hope you're okay. You know where we all are if you need to off-load  

TT - you do sound a bit more positive, which is really good. Sometimes it's about taking those small steps, getting through it a day at a time.

AFM - not much to report. DH is off to the states for 10 days with work on Sunday. We're having to pay for the trip as part of our contribution to company set-up so he's under strict instructions - no wining and dining! If he wants to fill his boots with [email protected] (but cheap!) junk food then for once he has my blessing! I'm glad he's taking this leap and have faith that they'll make a good go of it, but it's still really daunting. On top of putting into the company he's unlikely to have an income for much of this year and seeing as our car is somewhat creaky we're going to have to pay for a lease car soon. We knew all this before we decided it was worth going for but the reality is scary and means any plans I might have for eventually moving on from my job (and any retraining that might entail) are firmly on a back burner (in fact they're not even in the oven at the minute).

I'm also trying to decide how to cope with my oldest friend moving back to the UK from Egypt. She's 8 months pregnant and her and her DH are renting a place in the same town as we grew up in, and where my parents still live. I haven't contacted her since she got back last weekend and am supposed to be going to my parent's for my brother's birthday next weekend as part of my 'keep busy whilst DH's away' plan. The thought of seeing her fills me with dread but I hate myself for avoiding her, I can't do it for ever (nor do I really want to, I just don't want to see the bump, or the baby when it arrives, at least not until it's at least 15)  

Crikey, I came on here feeling fairly positive (and still do) yet that sounds like an almighty moan! On the plus side I've just eaten a Cadbury's cream egg which, despite being smaller than they used to be, was yum. 

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

H - anything goes on this thread. It's all about emptying your heart, but only when you want to and there really is no pressure to share, just know that you can if you want xxx I had a friend a few years ago and she was very against ivf for her own reasons. She felt under huge pressure to give it a try and it failed and the last time I spoke to her she was really struggling to deal with the failure of a treatment she didn't even want. Going with your heart is the most important thing. I also know, as we probably all do, several women who had failed ICSI and then got pg naturally so obviously question why they were told ICSI was their only option. Oh and tears are good, especially if they are tears because you finally feel your feelings are understood. 

JBT - big hugs xxx and I want cake photos this time 

Jen - an IF public forum isn't the place for my woes but I'm doing better than I was I promise. You never know, seeing your friend might be ok. Maybe the joy of seeing her after such a long time might make any bump upset seem insignificant. Speak in the week once your DH is away. Wish him luck from me and I hope it's a successful trip.

Katxxx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi and welcome Hemera   xx I agree that you are in the right place. I would have crumbled by now if it wasn't for Fertility Friends. Please don't think you will offend anyone on here, because you won't. We are all in the same boat, just with different situations. 
Feel free to let off steam and share your views with us. It WILL help    

I have read on a few posts that some of you are keeping low profile as you don't want to 'be on a downer to others' , PLEASE never feel like that xx We are here for those of you and that is the time you need to 'vent your feelings' ( if you feel you can) and thats when you will get the feedback you need and to share or let anger/ pain out.
When I first came on here, I felt I was doing too many 'ME' posts. I was not able to help anyone but just telling someone in similar circumstances has REALLY helped me. 
I feel that I have started to pick myself up now... and now I want to help and be there for others, like the wonderful ladies have been for me. 
Lisa xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Just a short one from me, and also to say that I'm still here like Jen and JBT, lurking in the background always reading 

Lisa, what a lovely post. I'm so pleased to hear that you're starting to pick yourself up. You really have made huge progress and it makes me happy to 'see' the change in you 

Hello and welcome to Hemera  I really can't imagine you'd ever offend anyone on here, we've all had different experiences (but obviously with one common bond) and everyone has their own limits on what is right or not for them - there is no right or wrong answer with what tx you do or don't choose to do. IVF isn't for everyone and you're right in that it certainly can put enormous pressure on people - something that those who haven't faced IF just can't understand, it isn't the easy option that the media like to portray. So you stick to your guns and do what feels comfortable for you and your DH 

Kat, glad to hear you're doing better but I'm still very worried about you  Thinking of you and hope you're back to feeling tip top ASAP xx

Jen, I know it's not a laughing matter but I did chuckle at your "I just don't want to see the bump, or the baby when it arrives, at least not until it's about 15"  I couldn't have put it better myself! I read that part out to my DH and he said "see, at least you're not the only one who feels like that". I still can't bring myself to visit my friend who had her baby recently, the thought kills me  I have no idea how we're ever going to resolve this - or rather, when I might 'snap out of it' and force myself to visit! I honestly can't see it happening any time soon. So sadly no words of wisdom from me about how best you deal with that situation as I'm in a similar situation myself and I really don't know the way out. Those Creme Eggs are _much_ smaller aren't they?!

AFM, DH and I finally had our chat yesterday and came to a compromise that I think we're both comfortable with. We've agreed to go ahead with one more tx, which will mean asking the clinic to defrost all 3 embryos at the same time (they are currently frozen individually) and then choose the best quality one for transfer. It could be that none survive the thaw, or that all 3 do. In which case we'd have to let 2 perish, but that's the risk I'm going to have to take. Whatever the outcome from that cycle will be our last. We can then finally move on, which ever path we end up taking. It's not ideal I know, but it's the best compromise we could come to without one of us having to back down completely. And as much as I want a baby I'm not prepared to risk my relationship with DH any more, 5 years is enough for me. Work is going to be mega busy over the next couple of months, so we've agreed to do our final cycle sometime soon after the end of June. Wow! What an emotional year 2013 has been already! The baby's funeral went ok, as ok as any funeral can go really. It was obviously very emotional and there were lots of tears all round, but it was a lovely service. Although I felt completely wiped out and drained afterwards 

Sorry I haven't done more personals this time, but I'm thinking of you all - brain power is finally going I think.

Hugs to all xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Yes I have Nosilab... I wouldn't be where I am now without you guys!
So many ladies on different posts 2ww, early scans, cycle buddies......and meeting each other again through losses, is hard, but knowing we are not alone has made a huge change in my life. Dont know if you have seen the new thread I put on this morning ( in pregnancy loss) its called 'WORDS OF STRENGTH'
I used to do all 'ME' posts and i never apologised. It truly helped me to get through a double grief. 
I hate paul now, as he deserves no better, but my baby George will live on in my heart forever
At the end of every cloud there is a


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - no need to worry I promise. I've been trying too hard to squeeze into my wonderwoman outfit but I've accepted that it just doesn't fit right now. It turns out I was the only person who thought it might anyway. On top of lots of other stuff, I'm suffering horribly with morphine withdrawal but I'll be back properly as soon as I've kicked my habit ;-)


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat    Look forward to having you back soon (although I'm not sure you've actually left?   ) Take heaps of care xx

Tippy, I haven't seen that thread but I'll look out for it


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

lol i know. I had great plans to just walk away and then found myself browsing and then bursting to say something. No willpower me. I'm bursting to say something about facing families with small children too but that'll have to wait. The downside of being opiate free today is that i can feel the awful pain i've been numbing :-(


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Heehee    Well, I look forward to hearing your wise words re families with small children sometime soon then.  I don't like the thought of you being in pain, that's not good.  Wish there was something I could do to help


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies, just a really quick one from me tonight as I'm done in but wanted to say a quick hi to you all. 

Nosilab, that's great news that you and DH have found a way forward that you are both comfortable with. I am sure that will be an immense weight of pressure off your mind. I'm really pleased for you. I think it's a good idea to be leaving it until June too because it will give your own emotions a chance to settle because the last few months of uncertainty with have taken loads out of you.  

Mrs P - I really felt for you with what you said about your job. I so admire how positive you are being and right now you could really do with the job being something to motivate and distract you in a positive way.... I really hope things pick up... it's very early days. I guess lots of workplaces are pretty gloomy just now... sign of the times.... I've never heard the term deatheaters before but I will definitely use this! Sorry to hear that GPs are being hopeless. I wish I could say I was surprised. Hang in there.

Jen, Nosilab - the comments about pregnant friends and their babies... I totally empathise. I haven't seen one of my closest friends since she got pregnant about a year ago. What I would say is that I have found it slightly easier to deal with since the baby was born... I'm not sure why... perhaps it's just that the anticipation has been harder than the reality. Having said that, Iam still trying to fathom out how I'm ever going to handle visiting. We actually exchanged emails this week and I asked her to send photos and I didn't really 'feel' anything when she did so I feel that is progress for now.

Hemera - hi there, so sorry you're here but in a selfish way it is good to chat to yet another wonderful thoughtful lady. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to do IVF and I echo the other girls to follow your heart... and in fact your head. I've had a busy couple of days so need to go back and read your posts again but just wanted to say hi. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who said that they were single in their mid 30s and never expected to even meet anyone to be in the position to even try... that was the same for me... and it helps to remind myself of this sometimes. Ifeel incredibly lucky to have met such a great guy. Maybe that just makes it feel all the more sad that the fairytale doesn't quite work out as it maybe could have... 

Kat - hello - I won't say too much as perhaps we shouldn't be encouraging you if you're trying to take time out! Thinking of you though. 

JBT - lemon yoghurt cake... seriously yum! I am a terrible baker.. I am in awe of your skills in the kitchen. I hope you'redoing OK.  

TT - sounds as though you have turned a little corner.. that's good news. Don't expect too much too soon of yourself though.

Cathryn - hope you're also doing OK. Thinking of you.

Hello to everyone I've missed. I hope you;re all having nice weekends. 

I'm doing OK, Ifelt significant relief after the time passed such that I couldn't change my decision. I've got a couple of months now to really try to digest how Ifeel. In all honesty Ithink Ihave turned a bit of a corner and am starting to look to the future without children but in a positive way. I'm still having my moments but the sadness and anxiety can't even compare with how Ifelt a couple of months ago. Right, time to sign off. Sorry for the dodgy typing. Stupid tablet again.

TAke care everyone. Xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie, so lovely to hear from you.  Sounds like you're doing really well and that the decision you made a few weeks back was definitely the right one. As you say, as least you have a couple of months to think things through now.  So as with me, the pressure is off a wee bit.  Yes, the decision that DH and I came to has lifted an enormous pressure, I feel lighter in myself and a tad more 'happy-go-lucky', for now at least.  I'm sure there'll be more highs and lows to come but for now I feel ok.

Re my friend with the young baby; we kept in email contact the whole time she was pregnant, but since baby was born we've hardly spoken.  The couple of times we've exchanged texts have been initiated by me, I never get anything out of the blue from her just saying hello, guess she doesn't know what to say to me?! I think she is really angry and upset with me because I haven't accepted her pregnancy and haven't been part of her baby's life    Baby is now 4 months old and I'm really struggling to see how things can ever improve between us, I still haven't seen a photo and at the moment have no real desire to, it's all very sad isn't it - this is one of the main things I hate about IF, that it makes me feel like this.  I'm still hurting and she just doesn't 'get it'  

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - that is so great that you are having feelings of happy-go-lucky again! Enjoy it. I think it's fair to say that the rollercoaster ride isn't over for you yet (or any of us) no matter how things work out so I think we have to really try to focus on really *really *appreciating the bits of the ride that are a bit more sedate! I do think that it could be really helpful for you over the next few months if you can really try to see all the great things about not having children. I think we all take these for granted because it's the norm and yes, we'd give anything for our worlds to be turned upside down. But even having children eventually returns to a different norm, one where there are no lie-ins or time to read the paper or spontaneous nights out or trips away. So seize them and enjoy them because either these may hopefully be the last few precious months of enjoying this or at least you can maybe start to see that there are a million wonderful things we can do with our lives. I really hope that doesn't sound trite. You know that I am on the same journey and know as well as any of you that this just might not work out in our favour and we have no choice but to try and figure out a happy future that doesn't involve our own children - and it's definitely out there. I don't know, for me at least, I feel that if I do go into a final cycle then all of the reading and thinking and talking to you wonderful ladies will help me to maybe be truly able to move on afterwards if that didn't work out... or indeed if I don't have this final cycle.

As for friends with babies, I guess what I didn't mention was that the friend I talked about experienced her own fertility issues. Not as far as IVF but she could relate and I think that has made her all the more understanding about how this is for me. I kind of expected her to run out of patience once the baby was born but she hasn't. I have been really honest with her and told her that I just can't handle holding other people's babies right now (or probably for a long time yet.... and I quote Jen... " at least until they're 15!!") - even though I'm doing OK. She seems to be understanding of this for now. And that makes me WANT to see her because I'm so grateful for her understanding rather than feeling backed into a corner. In all honesty, I don't think many people who haven't been through this can understand just how crushingly painful it is to even see a pregnant person, to hear the fuss over newborns, to even contemplate holding a baby. This forum and counselling has helped me immensely to deal with this because I know I'm not a freak and that this seems to be a pretty normal point of view. So I think I have self-acceptance. I don't really care what people who aren't my friends think (they probably think I don't like kids and that's fine by me) and with my friends, I've just tried to be as honest as possible. This was the advice of my counsellor and I think it has helped. I found it really hard to write it all down and express (no way I could have said it all in person) but I guess if you tell someone how hard something is and they refuse to at least try to understand then there isn't anything else you can do. I knew I couldn't see certain people and that wasn't going to change so the best I could do to try to sustain the friendships in the long-term was to at least tell them how hard it was for me. Then it's up to them to choose how to respond. I'm not saying it's all shiny and happy because it's not and I haven't spoken to a couple of my closest friends hardly at all, but it's a kind of understood silence rather than an angry silence.

So I don't know if you've told your friend how you painful it all is- I suspect that you have as you talk about her not 'getting' it. I agree with you, it's one of the most frustrating things about IF. We lose friends and it would never have happened if it hadn't been for IF. Yet another knock-on effect that people who haven't been through it can really understand. Can you try to explain again where you're at? It's all so very sad. 

Having said that, I had another positive moment yesterday. When I saw my hairdresser last I could tell she was pregnant. I didn't say anything and realised I'd have to change hairdresser to avoid having to make baby chat. Anyway, yesterday I wanted to get my hair cut and I realised I was OK with it. I held a conversation about the baby etc and I felt OK. That was a massive step forward for me. I'm celebrating all these small triumphs just now. I hope this is OK to share.

JBT - I just baked a banana, date and walnut loaf. Inspired by you! See, you ladies work your magic on many levels!

xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Morning all,
I've concluded that it's not this thread that I need a break from, it's just the outside world beating me down. I feel safe here so no need to distance myself, I like reading your comments too much to stop 

The friends with babies thing I suspect will hurt sometimes for the rest of our lives if we don't have our own. I'm working on the basis it will hurt less and less with time. I have a horrible feeling though that just as it becomes bearable for me, my friends will all become grandparents and it'll hurt all over again. This is just from my experience and we are all so different, but for me it did get easier when I had accepted it was over for me. That process of acceptance helped me accept that this is the life I have and no point in making things worse for myself with feelings of jealousy. Having said that there are still people who I can't deal with visiting. Mostly these people are the ones who clearly gave me some sort of timescale and decided that i would be over it by now. The friends i enjoy spending time with are the ones who tell me about themselves first and kids later, and only then if there is anything interesting to say about their kids. One way conversations are boring for everyone but the most self obsessed. My best friend has a toddler and is due again in May but we don't talk kids. Why would we as it'd be all one sided. We talk dogs more than kids as its a common interest, especially as her new puppy came come over Easter. She has loads of other friends to talk babies with and so as a result I can enjoy time with her and her growing family. I really do think its about our friends as much as it is us. I don't just mean friends that know about our IF, I mean all friends and their attitudes to life and acceptance that we are all different and that friendships are about mutual interests. I don't talk skiing to people who don't ski, why should they talk babies to me without one. Just my rambling thoughts and its what keeps me going but I realise not everyone is the same and it's also easier for me because I'm one step further in the process with knowing it'll never be me twith the baby. 

Janie and nosilab - I hope the next few months are more stress free for you both. Knowing you have a plan and timescale hopefully means you can enjoy living again and maybe put IF thoughts to the side occasionally. I did laugh at both your posts though since both if you started with 'just a quick one from me' and then had loads to say ;-)

Well, DH is taking me to the city to sit in the sun for lunch. For all the bad press I have given him of late, he is trying to help. This is our worst time of year as skiing is crap because its so warm but the tracks are too snowy to walk on so its always hard to find stuff to do. I'm back on crutches again too which doesn't help but a walk and lunch on the marina will be good.

Love to everyone,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Our posts crossed Janie but I have to say that baking suits you, you are very upbeat and chirpy today


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ha! It might just be eating the cake that has made me chirpy! But yes, I am feeling good today. Which is nice.

Ah... the marina.. I remember that... have a wonderful lunch in the sunshine. A very grey scottish day here! I am off to meet my first real live FFriend later so looking forward to that. xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, so glad to hear you've decided to stick with us as I would have really missed you. Hmm yes, so much for the 'quick' post eh! 

I think you're absolutely right about having other common interests with friends, why would I bang on about pottery or sewing to friends who don't share the same interest. And as sad as it is to say, if I'm totally honest before my friend got pregnant I think we were starting to drift anyway, we have totally different interests now that we're older which means now that baby is here we have even less in common, so nothing to draw us back together really. I guess that's why we struggle to text/email now - what would we talk about other than her baby?? And as you say, the conversation would just be very one-sided. I also agree (but hadn't previously thought about it until you said) that she is one person who I think unknowingly put a timescale on when I'd be feeling ok about things and accepting of events - which in turn makes me feel under pressure and backed into a corner. I remember her joking about it in the early days, saying she'd give me a couple of weeks to come to terms with it and then she thought I'd be ok  I think you're right, and I think the same, that over time things will become easier with friends who have children, but there is part of me that thinks by the time that happens certain friendships may be beyond repair with no going back. Who knows. I guess for me the bottom line is (for now at least) I need to concentrate on the friends I'm closest to now, and with whom I share a common interest - self preservation I guess. And my friend will have plenty of other friends (old and new from the 'mummy world') to talk to and share things with. At the moment that's just not my role. It would be nice if she texted me once in a while to say hello, but sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

Ooo enjoy that sunny lunch by the marina, sounds fantastic. I finally got my day at the coast yesterday, it was a beautiful sunny day. Didn't have fish and chips in the end, but I did have a really lovely time with 2 friends. As today is the last day of our hols DH and I are going to 'treat' ourselves to a takeaway - we really know how to rock 'n' roll eh! 

Janie, mmm, the loaf you've baked sounds amazing! Shame we're all too far away to pop over to taste it. You certainly are right, in that I need to treasure these happier times so that when I do have my crash back to reality (notice I say _when_) I can look back and remember that DH and I _can_ be happy. That's why this thread is so good, as I can use it as reference in the months to come  And as you say, talking to you lovely ladies has helped me to see a different perspective on things, and that actually a childfree life doesn't have necessarily be a negative thing - not in the long term anyway. There will always be sadness and a certain emptiness of course, but there is a way forward that can work with the pain and sadness fading slightly into the background - as with any grief I think. Yes, sadly my friend does know how difficult all this has been for me, we talked about it a lot before she got pregnant, and then quite a lot during her pregnancy. I have thought about writing to her again to let her know that I'm still struggling, but deep down she knows that really, it's just that she doesn't know how to deal with the situation, nor do I. I just have a hunch that she feels frustrated with me and how I've reacted.

That is a _massive_ step forward with your hairdresser! I'm really in awe of you, hopefully one day I'll be able to feel the same - here's hoping. Hope the meet up goes really well this afternoon. I met up with 2 FF ladies on Tues and we had a really lovely time, lots of good chat which I think (I hope) helped us all, it definitely helped me for sure.

xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies

Everyone is quiet today, just popping on to say hi and I have been reading... 

Cake turned out great, had it with whipped topping and diced fruits, so it turned out nicely...

Will post tomorrow when I am in the right frame of mind... just didn't want you guys to think i went awol... 

Kat thinking of you, Janie, Nosilab, TT, Jen, Hemera, Mrs P hi... Janie baking for me is therapy most of the time   that walnut date cake sounds delish, i love any cake with nuts and fruit   unfortunately bananas are scarce here now since our last hurricane last year so they are just coming back in... in a few months though I will have lots of bananas and I'll make that banana walnut cake will have to probably use some other fruit as we don't really get dates here...

Till tomorrow I will respond to the friends with kids topic I know oh too well about that.

Night


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

JBT, yes it has gone quiet on here over the last few days hasn't it - hope everyone is ok??  The cake sounds loooovely!  And I would think baking is great therapy    Sounds like you still have lots going on emotionally.  We're all here for you whenever you need to chat  

xx


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## TippyToes (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi Nosilab- I'm still lurking about, just not having a good day. I'm ok though xx
Hi JBT xx and other ladies xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm ok too, just been at work which is really tiring at the moment. Poochie has been sedated today for his final control appt and all looks good with his leg  We have to wait for the report from the specialist but our own vet is pleased. He is so useless when he has a hangover though and very much a needy mummy's boy ......... I secretly love the extra cuddles though. Although DH is going crazy, 3 times pooch has decided he wants to go for a walk and each time he has got to the bottom of the steps and stood by the car crying. Goodness knows where he wants to go ......... back to the vets to complain about his hangover maybe.

Love, Katxxx and her slightly kookie hound xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ok, I'm in a bit of a dither! I've just had an email inviting me to do a research event which is firstly great for my career and a real kick in the butt for the kat skeptics (of which there are many!), but secondly its great for my institute too. So if we ignore the fact I am only working 20% and assume I'll be back in full flow by September, (although obviously all the preparation is due way before that), then what's the problem hey? Well the problem is that day one is children's day?!?!?! That means I have to make a stand that small kids will find fun and interesting and then I have to spend the whole day talking to small kids about science. Do you reckon I can do it? 8 hours interacting with little ones! I know I couldn't do it now but how long is this healing thing doing to take? The second day is joe public but day 1 is kindergartens and schools. I'm kind of excited because the organizers help with ideas and build really cool stands and that all sounds fun but I'm scared already of an entire day with my heart potentially being shredded. Oh what to do, what to do.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Argh Kat - I'm feeling terrible that I haven't responded to your post before now. Firstly, I hope pooch is doing OK today. The thought of a wee vulnerable pupster makes me want to jump on a plane and come and give the handsome wee boy a cuddle. Sounds like you're all over that though! I hope he gets the all clear from the specialist. 

As for the science day... hmmm... I don't know and I guess none of us can really advise as it's so personal. But what strikes me is how excited you sound about it and it makes me sad to think that you would have to miss out. Is it all or nothing? Could you get someone to stand in on that day? Or is that missing the point really. I wonder if there is any way that we could just switch our thinking to just enjoy these things without the pain? I don't have the answer to how you might do that, just that I wonder whether it's possible. For me, I've generally been OK around children (especially those I don't know) , I just find it really  hard around  babies and tots (especially those belonging to my friends) so it's hard to put myself in your shoes. How long does it take to heal. Hell, if only we knew! What are you feeling now you've had a chance to ponder it some more? I guess from a boring practical point of view you need to be careful not to overcommit. Healing physically and emotionally has to come first, no matter how infuriating that is and how impatient you may get with it.

Oh I've just re-read and this seems such a bland response, it leaves me wondering.. what would NordicKat say?! 

I hope you're doing good tonight. xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I just wrote a huge long post and then lost it during a row with DH. He us such a jerk sometimes and deserves the blame for my lost post. The row was over is attitude and language towards me which I can deal with as always. What shocked me a bit was he said that I have no idea what it's like to be stressed about being ill. I thought he was joking but apparently not. There is nothing at all stressful about the last 2 months of my life?!?!? And you all wondered why I felt I needed to be wonderwoman! And to think I even had the odd tear today in Fysio-for-loons when we talked about me missing physical contact with DH.

I'm not sure if I'm angry, upset or just disappointed but either way I can't face writing my posts again. Rest assured it was full of love and hugs for you all though. I'll could also pretend it was a post full of wise words too although I suspect t it was more drivel than wise ;-)

Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Janie - I've come up with a cunning plan for the science fair and enlisted the help of a colleague who will be in her element, and if I need to I can just step back. She is not someone I'm especially close too but she does know i had some tx, mc and holiday in the loonybin (she found out by accident) and I often want to talk to her about her choices. She is single, mid 30s and childless. Maybe she is happy single but it would surprise me if she didn't want kids. That must break her heart but she deals with her childlessness by surrounding herself with other people's kids. Obviously it might be perfect for her that she can give them back afterwards but if she wishes she had her own I'd like to know her coping strategy. Maybe I'll ask one day and report back here if she has any top tips.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Kat - oh dear, well it seems our posts crossed and you're not doing so good tonight  
Really sorry that you're having to deal with added .. unnecessary.. frustrations. Why would he say you have no idea about how it feels to be stressed about being ill? That makes no sense to me?! I guess if I was going to try and say anything in defence of your DH it's that it can sometimes be really hard to stand back and see someone we love be in such pain and be absolutely powerless to do anything about it. And that can even lead to frustration. And actually I know myself that much as I like to think of myself as a caring person, I know that I sometimes struggle to empathise when someone is suffering... unless it is something that I have actually experienced myself. I definitely know my DH gets grumpy with me if I'm ill... or more accurately.. ill for too long. 

Anyway, I can imagine how frustrated and disappointed you must be feeling and again, I feel completely inadequate in my response. But put down the wonderwoman cape because you don't need to wear it to prove anything. 

Men!!

(is it socially acceptable to finish on that?)

 
Janie xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh that's great about your colleague. Does that mean you are all sorted so can go ahead and get involved with the fun stuff and maybe dip into the kids day if you feel up to it... and for as long as you can manage? Really glad you've found a plan. And yes - do find out about her thoughts because I'd like to know too! (I'm minorly obsessed with other people's decision making processes!) I guess I come from the school of though that I'm not that into other people's kids but I would have loved mine to pieces... so I find it hard to understand (although am in awe of) those childfree ladies who get pleasure from other people's children. I guess mid 30s means that hope is still well and truly alive. Or maybe she's just completely sorted in her childfree status. I absolutely love meeting ladies who have chosen to be child free. .. especially those who appear to like kids. Not sure why I find it so appealing. I guess it breaks a lot of stereotypes that I used to struggle with.

I hope everyone else is well. Thinking of you all. xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat I couldn't read and not respond as you always such words of wisdom for all of us even when you say you are not posting you find the energy to post. I may not have the same words of wisdom that you have give to us but I also mirror Janie's comment about our DH sometimes don't know what to say when they see us in so much pain and feel helpless... they do sometimes say things without thinking and the wrong things always comes out! I am certainly not taking up for him but perhaps he needed to blow off steam and since we are easy to offload on that is where it ended. So sorry you have to think that you need this wonder woman cape although I think we all feel that way, I certainly am at the moment.

You actually do sound excited about your new project and wish you all the best on that, glad to see you have found a plan. Way too many times, I know for me, I really want to do something but the thought of being around kids makes me not do it and I miss on out an amazing experience. Janie you are right Men!

Hi to everyone else. My mood still hasn't changed and DH has once again cemented the fact that FET, tx, any baby related activity is hold for how long I don't know. I am trying to envision my life without kids but it isn't working and worse I know I have frosties holding tight. Our anniversary is in a few days and I am just not that excited.

May I ask this very personal question please no one feel offended or believe you have to answer but since the whole IF issue my desire to be intimate with DH has truly diminished, I do it out of obligation (for want of a better word) but it just seems pretty pointless most of the time. I just want to know if it's me or others have the same feelings. Again no one has to answer if they don't feel it appropriate or any of my business  

Later ladies still at work


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

hi ladies

thankyou for all your words and advise over the last week or so it helps to know i'm not alone.
I've not had too bad a week. DH and I haven't argued at all i have been trying very hard to be a good girl.
Trying not to think about ivf at the moment i've put it on the back burner as i can't raise the subject yet. 
DH and i are by no means back to how it was but hopefully it is a step in the right direction.
Off to london on say for a friends b'day we are doing london eye and having a meal but getting down there and tube etc its gonna cost a bomb but at least it will keep me busy and i won't be arguing with DH as he is at work!

laters


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

Kat - I really don't understand where you're DH's comment about you not knowing what it's like to be stressed about being ill came from. That really is a difficult one to grasp. I usually like to play devil's advocate in these situations, not to be awkward but because it can be genuinely helpful to try and see something from a different perspective, but I have to admit I'm scratching my head over that one. I can only suggest it comes from him feeling frustrated - but that isn't your fault Kat. I know my DH has said hurtful things because he's frustrated at how long I've struggled with low moods, he's told me I don't understand how tough it's been for him too. That may be true but none of us wish these things on ourselves and we all do our bests to manage them. I wish I had some words of wisdom, but all I can come up with is give him a bit of time to think about what he's said and don't feel like this is one you need to 'fix'.

About the work situation - it sounds like you've come up with a really good plan  . I'd echo Janie, my first reading of your initial post about it had me thinking that this was something you really want to do and feel fired up about, but with understandable reservations. Like Janie I find children I don't know easier to deal with, though the thought of a full day of that would still feel pretty daunting.  Go for it Kat, I know you want to prove the doubters wrong but more than that, do it for you.

JBT -sorry to hear you're struggling, understandably so. Reaching the point of deciding to end tx is a gradual process but one that we need to arrive at under our own steam. It's hard enough to come to terms with it being the end of the road, but when it's someone else making that decision - how to deal with that? Even if it's not the end for you guys the uncertainty must make it very difficult to get on with life. 

As for your question re intimacy, yes I can relate. There are so many factors that can contribute to that; the tx itself, the emotions  that arise through treatment but also the conflict it can bring into a relationship. I know if I feel hurt or let down by DH the last thing I want is intimacy. It's not that I want to punish him, I just have no interest. Without going into details we've always had challenges in that area and they pre-dated IF. Over the years I've realised that being honest and open is key to getting some intimacy back at a level and rate that  feels ok. Sometimes I've had to tell DH that I just can't face it; that I feel too distant from him, or that I'm too distracted by the worries about wherever we are in a tx, or for reasons that I can't even understand. It's difficult to admit that but it's usually the start of building back some level of intimacy. Getting it out in the open allows us to start from scratch, to both know that having a cuddle means just that and nothing more and that somehow makes it easier. It also makes it clear to DH that I'm angry/hurt/upset and that we need to work on that.  It's not always easy and I'm not saying there haven't been times I've gone through the motions but I also now know that  simply going through the motions isn't something that either me or DH want.

Set - good to hear things are a little easier for you. As hard as it is to put IVF on a back burner I think sometimes we do need to. When it's hanging over us all the time it's so hard to focus on anything else and sometimes we need to take a step back and remember why we're with our DH's (and sometimes that requires digging very deeply!). One step at a time. Have a lovely time in London, it could be just what you need  

Hi, and hugs, to everyone else  

Jen xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

set - have a lovely time on London and hopefully being with a friend will make it easier to forget IVF for a bit. A change of scenery will do you the world of good, as will going out for something yummy to eat.

Jen   Sorry about the norwegian rubbish, it had been a fully norwegian morning and I was tired and confused   

JBT - there is a good side to me having back surgery and I feel I have a legitimate excuse to not have sex -  that may give  you a hint as to the extent of our (or should I say my) issues around it. Funny your should bring it up though as I talked about it with my shrink today and my homework is to ask DH for a hug - another hint there as to the state of affairs lol. As with Jen though, my issues with intimacy go back to before DH and I were together but I worked so hard to sort things out and then IF came along and took me back to square one again. My shrink would also agree with what Jen said about getting it out in the open but I do know how hard that is and I´m not sure i even have the words to even try to talk to DH. Nothing to lose though maybe hey? I know it effects lots of IF couples though and I´ve seen many threads on the relationship board about it in the past. Start with cuddles though. You can join my homework club   

Janie - there was an article in our sunday paper about women who were voluntarily childless. One lady actually tells her friends after they have given birth that she´ll see them in 3 years! She doesn´t hate kids but just has nothing to say to women who only talk about their little ones. Apparently most of the important friendships continue after the 3 years but the ones that fade away she concludes are less important ......... I´m not sure I have enough friends to be ditching them in the hope we rekindle afterwards. Another couple were a F/F couple and have been together for longer than tx has been an option, certainly for F/F couples here. Anyway, it broke her heart not to be a mum but as it just wasn´t an option they moved on to a new life and now is very content with the way things are despite her huge maternal instinct all those years ago. Although perhaps, 20 years ago, if you knew its just wash´t an option because it was illegal, then it might be easier to deal with - I often think its the hope that makes it so hard for us.

Thanks all for being understanding about my DH, I was scared it was me being over sensitive again as he claimed until I told the shrink earlier and she actually laughed as soon as I started to talk about it. We are having serious problems at the moment and its just the worst timing. I can´t work on the root cause of my depression while this is all going on, and before that it was my back pain. I´m just scared because there always seems to be some nightmare going on that prevents me from digging deep and working things out. That probably makes no sense to some of you but I can´t open all of the doors in my head at the same time otherwise I end up in hospital again and the coffee is dreadful there! I need to open them one at a time, but as long as the breaking marriage door is open, I can´t open another. Anyway, its not at all IF related so no need to talk about it here. I have to live with it, I don´t need to talk about it too! I am really keen to do the science fair, the old me would have loved it, its all really cool pollution stuff that I get really excited (and a tad geeky   ) about. And its months away and I´ll be ´cured´ by then for sure! Oh I do love boring the masses about pollution and toxic stuff   

Oh and Janie, we think pup is doing fab now. I´m still waiting for the official report but judging by the amount he has started to jump about recently, I think we can assume the break has healed. Over Easter him and I were on a ski track and he saw all the skiers coming past and had a major tantrum woofing at me about the lack of ski trips. Does your pooch think its a husky too when you go skiing?

Oh and my exciting news of the day, I´m about to book flights to meet up with 2 FF´ers later this month and I can´t wait. Thats one plus side of my IF, I´ve made some lovely friends, friends I may have met through IF but thats not what holds us together now. 

Time for a cuppa. Love to everyone, especially those I´ve not mentioned.
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Something fab just happened! I was lighting the fire (its snowed all day today  ) when DH came in so no eye contact was involved or anything and while my head was in the fire I told him I missed hugs. It wasn´t possible for him to rant and rave at me about it being my fault (which it is but that doesn´t get over the hurdle does it?!) since I had my head in the fireplace. I told him I want him to ask me for hugs as well as the pressure being on me to ask for them. You won´t believe what he did next? He only came for a hug. Seriously, its been maybe 6 months since he did that. Thanks so much JBT for mentioning, and you too Jen for talking about it too. It was writing it here that made me go and do it. 

He has said I have to spend more time in the TV room watching the [email protected] he watches instead of sitting reading on the lovely comfy sofa with a view over the fjord. Mmmmmmmm, am I prepared to sell my soul for him like that. We´ll see. 

One tiny step for mankind but a huuuuge leap for katxxx  

The fire has no doubt gone out already after all my excitement to share my news!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh Kat that is great news! We help each other      You brought tears to my eyes, I love it when any of us makes prgress... hug away Kat, hug away... baby steps is what makes us reach the goal! 

I sometimes sit with DH when he watches football while I read, I have no view to look at so i sit on the couch while he watches tv, try it Kat he may talk but i just smile and nod even though I am not hearing   makes him feel good  

Snow still OMG!

Hi alllll write late but just wanted  to comment on Kat's note.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat, that's brilliant - I really do understand how big a step that is and I'm so pleased DH responded that way. Sometimes it's those seemingly small steps that break down some of the barriers, maybe it'll now be easier for both of you to initiate a hug? 

As for the TV v reading, I know where I'd rather be but I guess sometimes it's about compromise. I'm not a fan of football but I occasionally go along to watch a game in the pub as I know DH likes it when I do. It will only ever be occasional, but he's pleased when I go and I'm pleased that he's pleased (if that makes sense?!).

As for opening doors on your head - yup, that makes sense to. For me it's the cupboard under the stairs, the one where you cram all your junk in. I opened it a while ago and all that crap fell out and I've been tripped over it ever since. My psychologist liked analogies.... I agree you can only tackle one big issue at a time and I really hope the hug is a first step to working through some of the marital ones. 

Anyway, I hope the fire didn't go out and you're installed in front of it, drinking in that view  

Jen xx


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

hi ladies 

kat its great to hear about your hugs i miss intimacy too but one step at a time i'm am being patient.

Looking forward to london tomorrow but will have to do a late late at work tonight and sun night but then i'm on holiday so will be a tiring weekend but a week off to look forward to.  then monday off to london again for chocolate making in the eve so another late late night but it does have chocolate involved. 

laters


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Set - sounds like a hectic few days, but with lots of fun things. I think anything that involves chocolate (or cake) warrants a late night! Enjoy  

I'm off to Lancashire for the weekend, it's my brother's birthday and although I wouldn't usually go down for that I thought it'd be nice to spend the weekend with them seeing as DH is still away. A family meal is planned though I think my gorgeous, cheeky niece might be at a party instead. I've been trumped by jelly and ice cream! I'm sure she'll join us for our compulsory walk in the park followed by hot chocolate and marshmallows though...

Have good weekends everyone, catch up soon xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Tell me about it JBT! Snow in April wasn't part of the deal! All you could hear last weekend was people on our street removing all evidence of winter by smashing ice (all time record for us of 10 cm thick on the path  ) and clearing snow and then just as we are ice free it starts all over again   . I tried your tv watching and reading thing and it was OK, being close by means i can keep an eye on his iPad browsing too which is handy since he has now decided he needs a mini   .

set  - chocolate is always worth getting tired for   . Enjoy!

jen - you have a nice weekend too and enjoy some cuddles with your neice   . I like analogies too but they don't always translate very well so we have a lot of confusion sometimes. 

Speaking of lost in translation random fact I discovered today: in Norwegian you don't say 'making mountains out of molehills' you say 'making elephants out of mice' ....... go figure!!! The other odd saying I already knew is instead of 'cherry on the cake' they say 'raisin in the sausage' ....... me thinks they have missed the point. Actually JBT, have you got any sayings that will make us giggle. I remember when you and Han used to chat a couple of years ago    .

Enjoy your weekends everyone, and thanks for your support this week.
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning Ladies:

Quickly lemme just say Kat that raisin in a sausage thing doesn't make sense to me... Oh boy we have so many colourful sayings here  one that is standing out in my head right now not sure why is "cockroach doan business in fowl fight" i am sure you all can figure out what that means... as the day progresses I will post... sayings for the day  

HAve a great day ladies


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

I've stumbled across this board but now recognise a few of the ladies Set55 and Nosilab from other threads. It was the first couple of posts that really touched a nerve. I've often thought that rather than having a maternal urge its the need to succeed and not fail that keeps me on this path. I've never failed at anything so why stop now. But as IF has dragged on Ive been devastated by the mc and bfn yet the thought of a baby terrifies me. Not hugely interested in other people's but I like kids. Dh has a son from his first marriage, who I struggle to bond with and if I'm truly honest don't like so I wonder am I doing all this so I've got something of his as well - a bind if you like. If we couldn't have kids we said we'd  change our lives, smaller house, more holidays etc even move. But we will never be free from his son until he's 18 so 10 more years and I'm not sure i can do that. Sometimes I think I'd be happy dh, me and the dog no kids just a nice life but we wouldn't be would we as we still pay child maintenance (huge amount to a silly ***) and have his son who is forever pushing me to get to his dad. I don't want to be a pt parent to someone else child it's all or nothing. I don't work either due to ttc and now the dog as I couldn't leave him all day on his own so I'm treading water with no direction.

I swing between wanting a child but is it the thought of failure that's driving me and not wanting to be different or the desire for my own baby. They think they've found the reason for my mc and I've had an op to fix it so we should have 3rd IVF (nhs funded) soon but have also had adoption workshop and just been assigned sw so have no idea what to do. I'm also 39 so feel time is running out and dh wants a family so is up for adoption I just don't know anymore. I really don't know whether its fear or reality stopping me going forward. IVF has never worked why should it work now? But then nothing has beaten me before and I never give up. People are making me feel like I'm a failure for saying enough is enough. So confused.

As for sex only happens when I'm really drunk don't see the point anymore it's definitely gone since ttc.


Sorry for rant.

X


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Very quickly, i could not just read and leave. First welcome Vicky no need to apologize re ranting that's what we do sometimes. But I totally understand where you are coming from re ss I too am in the same exact position! Will elaborate more later as I am on my way out but had to stop and read your post and then tell you are not alone. 

Kat I think she needs some of your wise words, for sure i will post tomorrow re ss, husband, adoption et al.

It's our anniversary on monday and fil is off to sil so we are taking advantage and going to the movies later with a friend. Who by the way is the mother of my goddaughter who she wanted to bring by for a visit but i told her i was on my way out  Just can't face the little one right now. My husband was rubbing my shoulders this morning and said i was very tense, go figure. Anyway that's another story! 

Hope everyone is having a good weekend so far. Catch up more later.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

VickyT - I' not sure I ever worked out the answer to the 'do I want a baby or to beat IF?' question. Maybe the answer isn't really whats important though since there is no doubt we would all love our child to bits anyway. We'd probably all be one of those terribly smothering over protective mothers having fought so hard lol. I suspect its not important what your deep down reason for wanting a child is as all of the reasons just mentioned seem perfectly good ones to me. And i'm pretty sure the only people not terrified of having a baby are those that just haven't thought about it. I can't really comment on you feelings about your ss because I don't know what emotions come with it but I can assure you there are plenty if 8 year olds I just don't like and I'm sure it must be hard to bond with him just because he is your DHs son if you don't like him as a person and he tries to push all your buttons. I have a friend with 2 step daughters and I know he gets on great with 1 but the other drives him insane. A personality clash and the fact she still after 2 years wants her parents to be back together, I imagine she refuses to get on with her step mum either. I hope your next IVF works because I'm sure you'll put all of your fears behind you once you are holding your baby, and it sounds promising now they have sorted things out inside. I know you say it's never worked so why will it suddenly work now but there is a good chance it will. Lots and lots of pregnancies happen on tx#3 so why not you hey. You've been pg twice before so maybe its your turn now. 

Sorry that was really long and dull - rugby widow again lol so to much time to waffle here.

JBT - enjoy your FiL time out 

Flights and hotel booked to meet my FF buddies in a couple of weeks so I'm a happy bunny. Very sore after over doing it big time today but hoping an evening horizontal on the sofa will cure that. I did spend the entire morning out and about without sticks today though so despite the soreness now I'm very pleased with myself. It was the housework that killed me. Note to self not to use sand on the ice next year because the dog is like a walking leaky sandbag and my DH not much better!!! I could have built a sandcastle from what a swept up from the living room!

Love to everyone,
Katxxx


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## Nic4 (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this site and have found it both heartbreaking and inspiring reading your comments.  It'll be 12 years in August since I found out I couldn't have children.  Although I've had treatment to clear my tubes and IVF, nothing worked and it's been a few years since our last IVF cycle.  We had to make the decision to stop because I just couldn't cope with the pressure of the treatment anymore.  Although I can't say we won't give it another go at some point in the future my husband worries about the effect on me if it didn't work. Thankfully he's always been really supportive and I'm lucky to have him.  I've been through counselling which I can honestly say saved my life and would recommend to anyone in our position.  It helped me realise that how I was feeling was completely normal and, at that point in my life, normal was the last thing I felt so that was a really big deal for me.

Over the years I've cut people out of my life because I couldn't be around them and their kids but, now that I'm a few years down the line, I really regret that I did.  I thought that not being around kids would make my life easier but to be honest it didn't.  We were still in the same position with or without these people in our lives.  All that I achieved was to lose some really good friends.  Thankfully there are some people who hung on in there despite my best efforts to get rid of them and I'll be forever grateful for that.  Although I don't think we'll ever come to terms with not having a family of our own, we have nieces and nephews and god children who we adore and are a big part of our lives.  Is it the same - no way!!!!! BUT... now that the pain of not being able to have kids is not quite as raw, we find spending time with them always gives us a boost.  

If I could give advice to anyone who isn't quite as far down the road as I am it's to try and not close yourself off from people who you care about just because they have kids.  Even now I have days or weeks where all I want to do is hide from everyone and cry (like this week when I found out my cousin is pregnant) but I know that won't help me in the long run.  I've learned to give myself a few days to get my head together and then face the world again.  I don't pretend it's easy but I've found that hiding away only makes things worse for me.  Getting a hug from my two year old nephew or one year old niece is a priceless experience that I wouldn't want to miss out on.  Even if it hurts like hell sometimes.

Hope I don't sound like I'm preaching, just wanting to share my experience in the hope it helps someone.  

Love
Nic


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Hello VickyTick, long time no speak. So sorry to see you over on this board but you are very welcome and I hope you find lots of support (like I have). It's hard for me to comment on your ss situation as I've not experienced it. But I can try to empathise and I can only imagine just how difficult that all is and what a strain it must put on you and DH. Does your DH know that you find things difficult with his son? Oo it's a really tricky one and I'm stepping into unknown territory here, I wish I knew what to say or suggest. Re the not being maternal, I wasn't the slightest bit maternal until I reached 35/36 and then I guess the biological clock started ticking in my ear, but even then it was a gradual process as in the very beginning I still wasn't 100% sure and was terrified, I even classed myself as 'tocophobic'!! Now look at me perusing pregnancy like a warrior  I think one of the problems with going down the route of IF treatment is that you have more time to think, as opposed to those that fall pregnant quickly and naturally. So given all the time we have to process, analyse and ponder gets us thinking "do I really want this?" or does it just become a case of "I refuse to be beaten!". I guess the part about wondering if we really want it is a kind of self preservation in case things don't work out, I think that's how I feel anyway. Weirdly only this week I've been having thoughts of "I'll be terrified of I _do_ get pregnant!!" But as Kat says I think that's perfectly normal, none of us have gone into this lightly or on a whim, so it's only normal to feel scared. I've never been interested in other people's children (apart from my own nieces and nephews). I've never been one to coo into prams and pushchairs and ask for baby cuddles, even before my IF I recoiled at the thought of doing that! It's great news that they think they've found the reason for your mc and that you've now had the op, at least you can go into this next cycle knowing that you're giving it the very best chance. I know it's incredibly hard but try and block out the people who are giving you a hard time for considering enough is enough, it's your body and your choice and they will never understand all the complex emotions involved with IF  You have to do what's right for YOU.

JBT, re the sex life, hmm that's a tricky one for me, but it's always been the same so way before my IF journey started. But for me it's the other way around, it's my DH who has the low libido which as far as I can tell from talking to other women is a pretty rare thing! Trust me to end up with a DH who isn't that fussed about sex!! It does cause probs and tension and of course it's caused major probs with the whole ttc things, which is an added complication and level of stress I could have done without during the last 5 years, especially when I get silly comments from the outside world telling me to "just have more sex!", easy for them to say! 

Kat, love the lost in translation sayings  How bizarre! Sounds like you've come on leaps and bounds with your recovery! Although I hope not literally, as leaping and bounding won't do your back any good at all! 

Nic4, hello and welcome. Thanks for posting, it was very inspiring and gave me lots of hope. I know you say that even after 12 years the pain hasn't gone, but I can tell from what you've said that things have definitely got easier. I do hate the thought of losing friends along the way and that in years to come I'll regret it, but it's so hard isn't it, when you're caught up in the moment, in the here and now when the pain is all very real and raw - it's almost like we get blinded by it. I have no real worries seeing my nieces and nephews, it's my friends babies that I really struggle with, especially those who have conceived/given birth while I've been struggling with my IF, it's strange that there's this weird cut off point. Babies that arrived before my IF = ok. Those that arrived during my IF = not ok. 

I've had a bit of a tearful week which has left me feeling very deflated again. Just as I think I'm making progress and coping with the world something comes along and knocks me down again. When I say it out loud (or in this case write it) it sounds completely stupid and insignificant, but I found out earlier this week that 2 friends that weren't close or in contact before (but have both recently joined the 'mummy club') now apparently "see each other quite a lot". That throw away comment just completely floored me  Yet another example of feeling excluded and a reminder of what I can't have. These friends hardly even spoke before babies came along let alone met up with each other, they barely liked each other. But I guess they now have a bitter and twisted friend in common (plus their babies) so that's drawn them together. I hated the world this week! 

Anyway, still feeling grumpy today so need to find something nice to do to try and distract my stupid brain!

Thinking of you all xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

VickyTick - Sorry about my last post to you. It sounds a bit to the point and uncaring but thats not how it was meant. I was on my phone which I always find tricky.   though is what I meant. And I didn´t notice that people were making you feel a failure for considering stopping. When somebody has been on your journey then maybe they can have an opinion, but until that point they have no right to say anything but words of support. Its you and DH that live this life and not them.

Nic4 - Having to walk away form some friends is hard but maybe its necessary at the time. If you knew it would only hurt for a month or so to spend time with their kids then it would be OK, but if the heartache is going to last much longer then maybe its just too painful. Then again sometimes the anticipation of spending time with young families is way worse than the actual event so hanging on in there is maybe worth a shot. Tricky one isn´t it, who to keep hold of and who you may have to let go. I´m glad your heartache is easing though, mine too.

Nosilab -   Stupid and insignificant? No way! Far from it. I am much better equipped now to spend time with friends bumps and babies but make me feel an outsider and I´m in bits. One of the things I find hardest is my bus stop which is even more silly as they are not even friends of mine. Its so lonely though and the place I feel a real freak. Everybody knows who everybody is and they all stand in groups depending on what class their kids are in, there is even a grandparent group too, and then there is me, the childless freak who isn´t worth talking to because what on earth could be talk about. But closer to your story are 2 friends I have, I haven´t even really voiced this to myself yet really. I have one very close friend and then I have another friend who is more of an acquaintance these days (due to being one of those annoying bore you to death about her kids types) and they don´t know each other yet but my close friend has just moved jobs and both are now in the same place and they want to meet each other. Their kids are all in the same school in alternate classes and I am so scared I´ll lose my close friend now because I´ll be the outcast. Surely they´ll want to go out and talk kids and I´ll just sit there in silence and they´ll realise what a bore I am. Its has me in tears even writing it down so who knows what I´ll be like when they finally meet. So, I know what you mean and I completely understand that feeling of betrayal and of not belonging anywhere   Don´t make light of it its a legitimate feeling ........ although no idea what you can do about it   

I have done the odd leap and bound when I forget that I´m still injured but I know about it and regret it quick smart. Just heading back the sofa now after lifting a deceptively heavy bag and feeling something not very good happen inside.

Grey and grim here today so I´m all a bit melancholy I think.
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks Kat    it's so awful isn't it, when a situation like this leaves you feeling like the outcast and betrayed (good description).  Especially when it's a situation between 2 friends who previously had nothing in common and no real friendship of such, not until babies came along.  And I totally get what you mean about the bus stop thing, just bloody awful!

Sounds like you've done a wee bit too much again!  Tut tut!    Getting back to the sofa sounds like the best option.  It's a bit grey here too, so that's def not helping the mood.

xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies 
Just popping with a quick hello. I've been reading over the last few days but just not had proper time for any kind of meaningful reply. Today I am in a bit of a funny mood. Odd because yesterday I was feeling just great.

VickyTick - when I read your post I thought instantly of JBT and I'm glad she responded. I can relate greatly to some of what you say and I can also feel your frustration about the added complications of your SS. I guess I am following the path of dog, smaller house, more holidays and I suppose it makes me feel grateful that this is simple for us and so I can understand your frustration.  I think if I was already tied to family life in a more typical sense then the drive to make it my own would be enough to push me to another IVF. I guess it shows that these things just aren't simple and decisions are often based on a whole backdrop of other considerations. I noticed what you said about drifting with no direction. Putting IF to aside, are there things that you want to do... that could help provide that direction? Don't get me wrong, I know as much as anyone that IF can just bring us to a standstill and it's hard to know where we fit anymore, where our lives are heading. I just feel that for me, somewhere along the line, having a baby became something more than just that, it became about filling the gap in my life that IF left behind. The gap that was left because I lost my fitness, I put changing my career on hold, I put friends to one side. I guess for me it's helping to try to figure out how to rebuild my life without it featuring children. I'm currently feeling quite excited about career plans but I'm also hugely cautious that the first day it's stops being some mythical magical idea of retraining and the reality hits then I'll wonder what on earth I was thinking of. 

Nic - that was a really lovely post. As you've read, it's something a lot of us are struggling with at the moment. I'm at the point that I'm starting to contemplate visiting some of my friends with babies who I've distanced over the last 18 months. I'm partly doing it because I feel I need to start allowing babies to enter into my life to 'test' how I really feel before I walk away from IVF altogether only to regret it in a year or two. And partly because I'm conscious of all that you say. It's good to hear your take on it. My friends have largely (with a few notable exceptions) been wonderful and even though I want to get angry with them, they don't really give me the opportunity. There were points in all this that I just wanted them to all go away and leave me alone to deal with this because I didn't want the pressure of trying to have to deal with baby-related events. But I guess in the long run I'll be glad that they persevered. Regardless, I do find more comfort and understanding from my friendships with fellow childfree'ers. But I guess that's understandable as they are on a similar path to mine with similar concerns and considerations. But it was really good to hear your experience so thanks again for posting. xx


Nosilab - oh my word I can empathise with your post about your friends... and neither of my friends have babies... how bonkers am I?! I have a really good childfree (by choice) friend (friend A) who has been a huge help to me over the last six months or so. Another one of my friends (friend B) (probably the person I feel has let me down most of the last couple of years) is moving to live near Friend A. They only know each other through me. Friend B doesn't have children (yet) but it's only a matter of time and that will only accentuate all the bad feeling I have stored up inside about the things she has done and said over the last couple of years. I'm trying to get over it but as you can see, I'm struggling. I feel like I have reached out to her and got nothing back other than thoughtless comments which show she has done little to try to understand how things have been for me over the last couple of years. Anyway, I digress. They haven't even met up yet and I already feel excluded and concerned about how things will develop. How long will it be before friend A is telling me to get over my anger about friend B? How long before friend A is telling me about how lovely friend B's baby is etc etc. I don't think I'm getting myself across here but suffice to say that I felt a total stabbing in my heart when I read about your sadness this week and I totally feel for you. I don't think you are bitter and twisted. I think you sound like an amazing, compassionate, caring lady who is contending with a huge challenge in life with great dignity, calm and a touch of humour.   

Kat - just read your last post... so it seems we are all totally 'getting' how hard the exclusion is. I sometimes try to explain to DH just how hard this is as I think it's more of a woman thing than a man thing. I sometimes walk with a friend in the village who has a child. It's fine. And then another 'mummy' appears and I basically just have to step back and let them talk. It's like there is a little bit (huge chunk) of my life that is missing. I can't ever imagine DH having the same experience with the Dads! I'm glad you made a little progress with DH. I hope things stay on the up and up but without the need to revert to the wonderwoman outfit. Oh and yes, our mutt most definitely sees himself as a husky... of course that's got nothing to do with the amount of 'mush' 'mush' that comes from me!

Like I said, having a funny day. In the main I've been feeling  more and more content with the decision to stop treatment. I've been focusing on my career change plans and get excited about that. But today I've had a little crash. We've been trying to sort out holiday plans which should be exciting. Except whenever we think about a longer trip abroad and I have to think about not having my dog with us I feel a bit down. We have a good friend who will look after the dog so it's not really a problem. It's just that I feel more excited about having a holiday in the UK so that the dog can come. And then that makes me think about what is important to me... spending time with the people (and dog!) that I love. I try to justify not having kids by the fact that we could do all these exciting things and yet somewhere deep down I fear this isn't really what is important to me. 

Anyway, enough from me. 
I hope everyone is well. Jen, I hope you had a good time with your brother and coping OK without DH. JBT, Set, TT and everyone else, I hope you're all doing OK.

Janie xx
PS - on the intimacy thing, I guess we do OK and I kinda reckon think things will get better from here but there is no doubting than IF has affected us. I've known for some time that there is zero chance of getting pregnant naturally and so I struggle with emotions of feeling 'broken' which isn'tt exactly conducive to feeling glamorous etc! It kinda hits me like a sledgehammer every time we get close.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hum, just a thought, but maybe our irrational feelings of being left out are actually nothing to do with IF but more to do with being a woman? Perhaps it's just the same for the uber fertiles too, maybe they just get left out for other reasons like not taking the kids to the right after school club, or not breast feeding long enough. That suddenly dawned on me when Janie said DH is not the same. I seem to remember similar feelings as a kid. Having said that it won't make waiting at the bus stop any easier tomorrow. 

Janie - we are planning a big holiday this year in Europe because I don't want to leave pooch behind. He is our family so he has to come too. I'm planning exciting adventures and lots of mountain hiking that you could never do with small kids (or teenagers for that matter). It's exciting seeing new things and is just what I want as long as I can do it with those that are important to me, and that's my DH and my wee boy. Heading south in your camper would be fab and its so easy with a pet passport. The 3 of you can do exciting stuff in exciting places that just don't involve longhall flights that's all. Then you can see how you feel, find out if adventures for 3 are what you want or whether are more sedate pace with kids in tow would have been better. Germany is dog mad and in one hotel they told us the dog could even come into the breakfast buffet ....... open tables of meats and cheese was too risky though ;-) We did 5 weeks in the UK last year though and it was great. The 3 of us did a section of the pembrokshire coastal path which is the #1 long distance walk in the world apparently although I'm not sure I agree on that but still ........

I hope the sun shines on you tomorrow. I did this post in 2 sittings as a friend came round and talked for an hour about his adoptive son which is always a heart string tugger for me. It was ok though and I came through unscathed. It's amazing how tough we are really.

Katxxx

PS. I am a terrible mummy though and pooch does go to the kennels sometimes too and I'm full of guilt for the whole trip :-( And skiing tends to involve more 'wooooaaa' than 'mush' as he is bonkers, especially on the downs. Oh that reminds me of a black lab we see skiing near our cabin. His owner skis with no bag or anything because the lab is trudging along behind somewhere pulling a huge sledge with lunch in lol. He is so funny to see because he frequently wanders off on his own so when you are alone on top the mountain, this lab towing a sledge just appears from nowhere, head down trudging


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Awwwww......! black lab with sledge. WANT ONE! 
We've thought about taking the dawg with us but I worry about it being too hot in the van. I guess it depends on when we go and what we plan on doing. Walking would be OK but we also love to ride bikes and he can't play there. I've no problem leaving him in the van provided it doesn't get too hot. I am actually considering it because we're thinking of not going until September so not so oppressively hot. We're also thinking about Scandinavia for a longer trip but heard it's not so dog friendly. Are dogs on leads OK there. Have to dash and get roast out but be back to interrogate again later!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I can only comment on Norway but I would guess at Sweden being similar but I think it's dog friendly. Its not like germany and you generally have so sit outside at restaurants and cafes but I've never been anywhere where the dog can't go that I'd have expected otherwise. There are lead restrictions during baby animal season and in reindeer areas but other than that you and the dog can go anywhere at anytime. They are always allowed on campsites although the joy of Scandinavia is the right to pitch up anywhere. We've taken ours on Canadian canoeing/camping trips with reindeer everywhere. We've taken him into many a mountain cabin for hot chocolate and he has sat out with us to eat at even some of the fanciest restaurants by the marina in Oslo. He has also stayed in some rather fancy hotels too and he was far from the only dog at oslos farmers market yesterday. oh and they travel the underground free on weekends  The one weird thing is that dogs are not allowed in the mountain cabin chain. They can sleep in the porch or woodshed but not indoors which I find strange for such a big dog nation. And by September you are coming into hunting season so there are loads of dogs out and about working or training.

I'll think some more about that just to make sure I'm not wearing rose tinted glasses though ........


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello ladies,

I have been lurking shamelessly all week with a post in my head that I wanted to get down, but couldn't seem to find the right words until I read Nic's post.  Thank you for sharing your experience with friends on this board Nic, as I suspect that your words have resonated with many of us.  At the beginning of the week something quite unexpected and upsetting happened to DH and I (not IF-related so I won't bore you with the details) but suffice to say I was very upset and really wanted to call a friend to hear a friendly voice and talk it over - that's exactly what DH did and after 20 mins on the phone to his best friend he was feeling much better about things.  It was at that point that I realised that I didn't have anyone that I could call - not a single person, because even the friends that in my head I have been telling myself are my oldest, closest friends have been held at arm's length by me for some years now.  I haven't spoken to any of them about anything really important or really personal for so long now that I didn't feel that I could call any of them.

Like many of you I stopped seeing a number of friends when they got pg, telling myself that I would be able to face them again when I got pg myself. HA HA HA - how stupid was I?  It's been years now and one by one I've cut them all off, and even the ones that I could still face seeing with their children, I now realise that I haven't shared any of myself with them or they with me since all of this began.  I have told most of them about the IF, but because they are not able to understand what it is like, no matter how sympathetic they have tried to be, I have just stopped talking to them about it.  I'm not proud of having to write this sentence, but I think it's time that I put it out there to admit that in my darkest times I have actually taken some satisfaction in the thought that some of my friends have been upset that I have distanced myself from them.  Their easy pregnancies have caused me such pain that I felt it was only fair to let them hurt a little bit too - that is a truly awful thing to have thought, but my head has been in some very dark places over the years.  I realise now that ultimately the only person I have hurt is myself.

So Nic, your words rang very true with me and on Monday night I realised that I  missed one friend in particular who I have not seen since she told me she was pg (her baby is now almost 18 months old).  I know that I will have to get back in touch with her properly again, but it's still so hard to have to do after all this time and I wouldn't blame her if she has moved on by now.

Nosila - I understand exactly how you feel with your two friends.  I once happened to be out for dinner with a big group of family and friends and found myself sitting with my best friend and my sister-in-law.  My best friend had just had a baby and my SIL started dishing out breastfeeding and sleeping advice, and even though the two of them had never met, they were chatting away as if they had known each other for years while I sat there like the big, useless, infertile lump that I am just too shocked to say anything.  After about 5 minutes I stood up to make a discreet exit but ended up choking on a sob as I left the table.  They realised they had upset me and were mortified, but the damage was done - that happened 5 years ago and it still makes me cry when I think about it.  I've just realised that I have fallen into the trap of calling her my best friend - this is because we were best friends for years, from the age of 10 in fact.  We were bridesmaids at each other's weddings and thought that we would always share everything.  Although we still speak relatively often (she lives in France now, so not so easy to see her often) I didn't feel that I could call her earlier this week when I really needed a friend.  Now we only ever talk about the superficial stuff and I doubt she would call me her best friend any more.  

Kat and Janie, I just wish cats were so eager to travel.  We too have gone on trips over the past few years that we would not have been able to enjoy if we'd had children, but I always miss my two pusscats too much and feel guilty at leaving them behind.  As a 5-minute trip in the car to the vets is enough to induce incessant hair-raising screeching, I suspect that an overseas trip would be too much!


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## LellyLupin (Nov 12, 2011)

Wow Waikiki what an honest post.  I too am guilty of the same thing and cut my best friend off when she had her baby (he is 6 weeks old now).  Has it made me feel any better about my own situation - no.  I haven't shared any of my ivf struggle with any of my friends because I just thought I would tell them when I got pregnant, now it hasn't happened I feel like they would be upset that I didn't confide at the time.  I think we all do this to some extent and its to save ourselves from getting hurt,  so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it, at the time it will have been the right decisons for you xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Reading all your posts I realise just how much it really is that feeling of being excluded that is so hard for us all. Waikiki, that scene in the restaurant is the sort of thing that I try to avoid at all costs and the way you describe it breaks my heart   and resonates powerfully. So Nosilab, clearly none of us think your reaction was over the top. 

Kat - thanks so much for your post. It made me realise how mNight alluch more excited I could feel about a trip if the whole 'family' was there...i.e. including the mutt. We've spent the last couple of hours looking at the Norway idea in more detail and I feel REALLY excited. That in itself (the feeling of excitement) is worth something even if the trip comes to nothing. Obviously we need to take out a second mortgage to travel to Norway but we'll just pack the van full of baked beans.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks ladies.  As much as I hate the thought of all of you struggling and hurting too, your posts have definitely made me feel normal about my reaction.  Sadly it seems there isn't really an easy answer for any of us.  But I'm so glad I posted now as I almost didn't  

Waikiki, your post about the restaurant is just awful, I really felt for you, and when you said you choked on a sob, I knew exactly what you meant  

Re holidays and pets, DH and I are so stupidly soft and protective with our animals that we haven't had a proper (ie long) holiday in years!  We hate leaving them so the most we do these days is 2 nights away    DH refuses to put them in a cattery and isn't keen on pet sitters (understandably he doesn't like the thought of strangers roaming the house!) and we're short on friends that live close enough to be able to house sit and/or pop in to feed etc.  So, holidays for any length of time are rare (if not non-existent) for us.  But we don't mind really, we do overnight stays away and lots of day trips.  My friends and family think we're bonkers (which we probably are   ) but hey ho!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Good evening ladies:

I can finally post, not having a really good weekend I have just been really down about my failing body! Kat you are absolutely correct we feel left out out because of being a woman with a failed body... well that's how I feel. 

Nosilab I have been in that situation so many times I can't count and I guess sometimes I should have sobbed my way out of it instead of suffering through it. Waikiki I hope you are feeling better after your news this week, it is sad that we have almost isolated ourselves and can't find a friend when you need one. I must say I have been really lucky to have one friend who although she has kids we are very close and she knows my struggles so she doesn't talk excessively about her kids one 14 and the other 7. There are times she talks about them and i do get a pang of jealousy but she doesn't prolong it, so I grateful for that. I do however have another friend her daughter is my goddaughter who I never see... It's particularly hard for me with that one because she had an issue conceiving and I introduced her to my fertility doctor she got pregnant and made me the godmother even though the child has 2 others it was like a slap in the face especially since at the time of Christening I was going through a tx and having a hard time of it OHSS, hospitalized etc. So we don't talk much or see each other much and I really don't have any desire to, she was really DH's friend and so I kinda inherited her friendship. My best friend migrated a few years ago so I don't see her and her kids that much but I am ok around them, maybe because they were born before my IF journey. With that said I understand what you are going through and it is tough but if you can try to connect that would be great but don't push it take it slow.

Now for Vicky oh boy I could go on for days talking to you about a life with ss! I have been with DH for 13 years ss was almost 2 DH and the first wife had already been separated so I had nothing to do with their break up. But the journey has been tough he lived with us for a year and it was just torture, at the time I did not know of my infertility and although it may sound terrible I believe the stress of him cause my first ectopic pregnancy... I want to say that the relationship will become more tolerant as the years go by and he gets older. I know mine has. We can actually have a conversation over the phone now, I am still not a big fan of his he put me through hell once called me names, lied on me etc His mother is also a ***** and never helped the situation. It's also hard in the summers when he comes home to visit because his grandmother and uncles and aunt cooo over him and I guess to some extent I can;t blame them, I coo over my nieces and nephews it just hurts because I want that too for my child that may never happen. As for me wanting children, I have always wanted kids and worse now that DH has one and I can't share that with him is even more distressing to me. You know we too have to pay child care in foreign exchange which dips into the funds we could have used to fund another tx of which we now can't afford. So I feel a little bitter about that. I feel terrible that I can't conceive and give DH kids while his only child lives thousands of miles away and he has missed out on a lot of his growing years. They speak often but I guess that isn't the same. I don't think ss and I will ever bond but at least now I can tolerate him being around. I used to dread summers and Christmas when he came home, now I don't dread it as much I don't look forward to it but I can manage better now. As for work I do work part-time also because of ttc and tx and then when that wasn't working I just can't seem to find a full time job and I really need to re tool so that has been tough. If you would like to PM me feel free I totally understand where you are coming from and I struggled for years because not only did I not have friends who had step kids but I don't have friends with step kids and are IF so double whammy. 

I hope I have been of some help and I didn't ramble on too much, sometimes I can go off on a tantrum. I just had a really odd 2 days I guess with anniversary tomorrow and feeling like a failure to DH it's all getting to me. We did go to a movie last night with 2 friends and a drink after which was ok. If I didn't have a stupid tension headache it would have been nicer. So we'll go for a nice dinner tomorrow and I have to remember to keep my mouth shut about us having another FET so I don't upset the night   I made a really nice chicken lasagna for dinner with garlic bread it was nice, no baking this weekend sadly I just couldn't manage. But i did make a pizza from scratch Saturday night first time making pizza dough came out nice for the first try.

Janie good luck with th e career change plans, I am with you on this one...

Hi to everyone else


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Just a short (ish  ) post while the espresso machine warms. And I apologise in advance for some of the rambling you don´t want to hear but I read your posts over breakfast and then had thoughts all racing round my head while I walked the dog.

Fab holidays just because you can - I´m not sure it works to take a holiday you couldn´t do with kids, just because you don´t have kids. I think you have to want to do it for you. I´m lucky enough to have been to the Galapagos and do you know what my first thought is? BFN #1. I´ve also had 2 very long holidays in Japan and you know what I first think? BFN#3 and mc. Don´t get me wrong, they were obviously fab holidays but there was that hint of sadness there too. We have to do stuff that makes us feel good rather than because we think we should. This year will be my first holiday in 7 or 8 years (I don´t include snowboarding  ) that doesn´t feel like a consolation prize and won´t be tinged with sadness. 

Friends - well I guess we´ve all lost a few good friends but maybe we should turn the tables. What if one of our friends had to walk away because she hurt so much over something you really didn´t understand? We´d probably all be a wee bit upset about it I guess but I also suspect if the friend tried to rekindle the relationship again we´d be there like a shot. Maybe we should all credit our friends with more compassion and empathy and think how we would react instead of assuming the worst.

Waikiki said her best friend probably doesn´t consider her a best friend anymore but why not? You use the term for her so why wouldn´t she for you hey? I have a whacky idea that you´ll throw out straight away I´m sure, but how about sending her a card (everybody likes getting post so you´ll be off to a good start   ). Just say you´ve missed her friendship, that you´ve had an awful awful few years but now just want to get your life on track and have her as a part of it. At the moment you don´t talk to her at all so you have nothing to lose by giving it a try. 30 years of friendship is worth that and the chances are she´ll be chuffed to bits to hear form you again. She has likely missed you as much as you´ve missed her and its not too late to make contact again. Your loneliness brought tears to my eyes this morning because its to familiar to me too but maybe we just have to bite the bullet and start rebuilding our lives. And your thoughts weren´t awful, they were the thoughts of someone hurting. In the midst of such turmoil we all have irrational thoughts that in the cold light of day we regret.  

Support and friendship comes from the most surprising places. Complete tangent here but mental health is even harder for people to come to terms with than IF because first they don´t understand it and second, they are scared of it. When I was first admitted to the loonybin DH needed support so he called one of my best friends (married to his best friend). The 4 of us have always spent a huge amount of time together but I´d never ever thought of this guy as a ´proper´friend. We talk surface stuff nothing deep and meaningful and any phone/text is purely to arrange stuff and never for a chat. Anyway, after DH called my friend to say I was in the nut house, she called her hubby and he was out skiing in the forest. He then turned around skied home as fast as he could, collected his wife and were visiting me in the loonybin as soon as they could. At the time I was off my rocker so knew nothing about it all but in hindsight its means more than my best friend coming because its not his duty, he did it because he cares. I suppose I´m just trying to say that even if people don´t understand they are usually more than willing to be there and offer friendship, just as we all would if the tables were turned.

Janie - check out Femundsmarka for the canoeing and reindeer place. As you´ll not need to pay for camping in your camper then Norway isn´t as expensive as you think ......... as long as you don´t have an alcohol problem. The only way to drive here with a dog by the way is Dover-Calais (we took the Eurotunnel) then to drive up. Its a long old drive but we did it last year with just one overnight in Germany but we were only going to the south coast of the UK.

Best get ready for work now although taking a shower seems pointless since its raining so much. Its our first rain for 4 months which is always a bit depressing. 
Katxx


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

WOW just want to say a big thank you for a fab welcome and great advice. I have been reading all the posts and as a result been having 'chats' with DH where I've tried to be honest about my feelings. Some of which he wasn't overly keen on but tried to get him to see my side. For a man he is very child friendly and seems to attract children (not in a pervy way lol) whereever we go like hes a magnet or something. I did get him to see what itd be like if the tables were turned and he did try to get me to see that some of my issues with ss are his mother and the impact she has on us and the influence over ss. Its funny how you don't think about the end result of a baby but simply beating the odds of IVF but I've realised I do want a child or to be called mummy more specifically. 

I think you've summed up the friend situation perfectly its the sense of exclusion that is a killer. I've got a 40th in a couple of weeks and we are the only non child couple going and its amazing how when you get to a certain age (im 39) people expect you to have a family. BUT its the 'oh im sorry' not knowing what to say that I struggle with as it just makes me feel even more inadequate. Friends were great for the first 18months of IF but now different story we can't go on family weekends (simply not invited) or talk about schools etc so they struggle to deal with us. Having said that my closest friend from Uni lives about 1hr away and we used to see each other all the time but she has 2 kids and doesn't really know how to handle me and what we are going through. I do tend to make all the running or arrangements and I worked out I've not seen her for over a 1yr due to treatment, time flying, house stuff. I'm going to give it a go and arrange to see her and try to let her know how I miss out general chats and I can talk about other things or kids without breaking down (well i might later with DH). Its very hard but you do get alienated and its the last taboo. Not everyone gets cancer but you wouldn't dream of alienating a friend with that because you've not experienced it. You'd just be there for them so why is IF any different.  I've tried to get a p/t job but don't even get interviews as I'm overqualified for most so they look at my cv and just reject me. Stupid as I know I'd put everything into it. 

As for hols we've had a few 'consolation' ones as well and frankly thats how they are remembered ie can't remember when we went to tenerife, yes you do it was after the mc in 2010 etc etc. We've only had our baby (the dog freddie) since last June and he's a year this week so only been away once for a few days and he went to kennel as family couldn't have him but he was so loved he didn't want to come home. We are off in a couple of weeks and my mum is staying at ours to look after him. BUT we have booked a week in Oct with ss in UK and my mum is coming as well for my sanity which will be the dog's first hol. I'm so excited but not looking forward to long car journey as he cries like ababy unless he's tired from a walk. 

Thanks again ladies its lovely to find empathy without judgement. 

x


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat you summed up the friend issue pretty good... I guess if you truly want to regain a long time friendship it doesn't hurt to reach out, an email, a card or simply a text. 

Vicky where do you live? My DH also put some amount of blame on the child's mother as well, which I know is true, but the child also did some pretty mean things of which he didn't do much about so it festered and things just never got better... I was trying to be the best "parent" I could, I tried to do things I knew I would do for my child and it never worked... anyway I have often put myself in DH's situation and you know what I would have handled things differently.. We want to do a "family" trip probably next year to somewhere we've never been, another country I am kind of not looking forward to it but think it will do us some good. I know ss and I will never be close but I at least want us to have a decent relationship which I see it getting better. I understand about the job scene, it's the same for me too especially since I want to change careers which means a lower position to move along in the organization. So I am struggling right now and it is quite depressing.

Later ladies


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Vicky - my pooch always sulks after the kennels and I'm pretty sure it because he is peed off that we collected him rather than because we left him there. Twice a day he gets to run around with all the other dogs ....... puppy heaven. Great news though that you know you are not ready to move on just yet, the not knowing is exhausting.

There just isn't an easy answer on the friend front is there. I don't ever ever cry, it's just not me, but today I was in tears several times, even at work but can't rock the boat with DH or bother any friends. It's funny though, the loneliness and isolation becomes such a normal part of life that you stop even thinking about it, it's just the way it is after all. Thanks nosilab and Waikiki, and the rest of you too of course, thanks for at least making me acknowledge my own situation ......... not sure what to do about it mind. Obviously if I was a 'normal' rational person I would just call a friend, after all I know they would call me in a crisis.


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## Nic4 (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi Waikiki and Everyone,
I think Kat's idea of sending a card is a lovely one.  You've no control over how your friend will react but if you're honest with her about everything you've gone through and she turns you away, then I'd say she's not the right friend for you.  Hopefully though, even if she can't possibly understand what you've gone (and continue to go) through, she'll be over the moon you've got in touch.  My best friend had her daughter the same week I was told I couldn't have kids.  Like you I never felt able to confide in her as much as I'd have liked and probably needed and have kept her at arms length for so long.  Thankfully she was one of the people who wouldn't let me get away completely and we're rebuilding our friendship bit by bit.  Other than my husband she's the only person I've told about this site and she really encouraged me to sign up for it because, by her own admittance, as much as she'll support me in anyway she can, she can't comprehend what it's like.  Now that her daughter is 12 and doesn't need her in the same way as she did when she was younger and I'm feeling more positive about my life, we're able to spend time together that doesn't involve talking about babies etc.  Having been friends since we were 11 (I'm 3, it's nice to have someone who I don't need to explain my circumstances to.

Please don't beat yourself up about things you've thought.  I think I'd be scared to say out loud some of the things I've wished on people in the past. I remember my own Mother saying she didn't understand what I was going through because she was the other way and fell pregnant too easily.  I let it go the first time but had to tell her to shut up the second time she said it.  I think I'd have punched her if she wasn't my Mam!

Nic
xx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

You're right Kat, the lonliness has become so normal for me that it was only when something out of the ordinary happened and I needed a friend to talk to, that I realised that I have distanced myself from all of my friends.  The idea of sending a card is a good one, but with another cycle coming up I don't know if I feel strong enough yet.  I know that this one friend is incredibly loyal to me and I hope that she can wait a little bit longer for me to get my head together.

As for what else we can do about it?  I don't know, I just wish I knew one person in the 'real world' who has struggled in the way that I have as the only true understanding I ever get is from you lovely ladies.  If all else fails, maybe we could set up an IF commune!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies

I bit of a me post today... I know I said yesterday that I didn't dread ss coming home anymore, hmm I think I still do! I am not sure I am looking forward to it at all... I don't know that I am strong enough yet... I think a lot of things are frustrating me, perhaps if I just got a flipping job!!! I have come to terms that I have to delay further tx, but I need to be doing something else in the meantime.  I just finished scouring the job sites and I nothing! Anyway it's just hard and I'm bored and frustrated and miserable and comes back from sil today and I am just not ready for that yet... I just want to curl up in a corner and cry!

Sorry, I was going to delete the post but decided not to. No replies necessary I know what everyone is going to say and frankly I am just over this whole IF, job, unhappy situation.

Till later, thanks for listening


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

You know what I am also tired of seeing people putting up "cutsie" pix of their kids on social media... We went to dinner last night for our anniversary saw a few people we knew, those who knew it was our anniversary you can just tell they wanted to ask about babies and why we didn't have any... I just felt so uncomfortable, I feel so much like a failure... in so many ways


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh JBT (((hugs))) Sometimes the only thing you can do is curl up and cry, and you know what? That's just fine xxx Life is sh1te sometimes and no matter how hard you try you can't get things back on track because the reality is that's its just out of your control. (((hugs))) again. 

Waikiki xxx for you too. Of course your friend will wait a bit longer. Maybe it'll even help this next cycle, knowing that after its over you are going to rekindle an important friendship might mean she gives you a little extra support without even knowing it. Are there any friends you've made on here that are local to you? Do you have Skype? Even an iPhone for free instant messaging? I use both of those for chatting to people on here who are nolonger IF friends, but real genuine friends. 

Nic your friend sounds perfect. Somebody who wishes she understood but knows she just can't and I'm glad she kept fighting for your friendship 

And if anyone else thinks they are struggling today just spare a thought for my wee man. We had his haircut today so has a hangover from the sedation (scared to death of hair klippers) but also obviously has pubes trapped in his willy and they are driving him bonkers, and his mean mummy is just not prepared to go there and fix the issue.

Lots of love to everyone. Hang in there one and all, we'll all find our happy endings one day.
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

PS. JBT this is for you xxx

I wish I was a glow worm,
A glow worm's never glum.
How can you be unhappy, 
When the sun shines out your bum.

I bet you didn't know I was going to say that ;-)


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Kat... no I didn't expect that! it did make me smile

Waikiki take it in stride if she is a true friend she'll be there when you are ready...


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## set55 (Jan 10, 2012)

vickytick,

Hello i recognise your name from treatment threads and although in reality they weren't that long ago it feels like ages ago.  Like yourself i don't like the idea of failure usually i would just keep going and succeed but IF doesn't of course fit into this mould. And although i would want to do one more cycle if dh were ever to agree part of me thinks it is just never gonna work and i feel like a failure.  

Nosilab  SNAP of the DH and libido.  Now i'm not always mad for it but my DH always seems to be able to take it or leave it which i find so frustrating.  needless to say this year it has been non-existant   due to the arguments we have been having.  But i do have needs but i'm trying not to moan about it too much but half of the no sex with DH thing just makes me feel that he doesn't want me.  I long for a bit of intimacy.  How much is considered normal?  Once a week   every other day   at the min once a month would  make me   .  But hey ho.

The weekend was good apart from the sun at work 12-12. sat on the london eye witha group of friends for a 50th b'day one of whom hadn't been to london much before and was like a kid in a sweet shop very funny, then yesterday london again with dh we walked and walked for ages but it was good and the chocolate making was VERY GOOD.  We had chocolate liquor and prosecco and had tastings then made truffles, decorating them and dipping marshmallows and scoffing them it was enjoyable to say the least.  took home 4 little bags worth of chocs we made each.  The table when we had finished was carnage with mess everywhere it was funny.  didn't get home till 12.30am.  
Today been a little more bored on my hol not done anything ironed and hoovered dh gone to arsenal tonight thus reinforcing the argument that the only things he wants to do don't involve me.  but i've tried not to moan.  Tomorrow taking my bro girlfriend to physo she is recovering from a badly broken ankle and then getting my hair dyed in the afternoon.  Thurs and fri who knows maybe some baking.  Anyway have gone on way too long so love to all and big  .


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

I love that little poem Kat - it reminds me of being little and my dad saying that to me.

Re the free messaging thing, for anyone who has a smart phone (doesn't have to be an iPhone) you can download an app called ******** which will give you free international calls, texts and pictures as long as you're sending to someone who has the same app    It's great!

JBT, just wanted to send you some big big    sounds like you're in a really low place at the mo and could really do with some support.  You know we're all here to listen whenever you need us.  In the meantime if you need to curl up and cry, do it.  We all need to do that from time to time, it's all part of our 'survival' mode xx

I seem to have lost all motivation to do the things that interest me at the moment, someone (or something!) has stolen my mojo.  If anyone has seen it please can you send it back my way  

xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Set the chocolate making sounds great! As for sex and normal hmmmm not sure there is such a thing   so what do you bake? I am always looking for new ideas.

Guess what ladies in my latest Food Network Magazine they had an article on rhubarb thought it funny we were just talking abt it.

Nosilab ******** is great! I use it along with my bbm messenger. Btw if u find your mojo can you find out what he did with mine? Yes low indeed, crying i cried so much through my IF diagnosis and ivf treatments i wonder if i have tears and I have become such a woman of steel trying to protect my emotions i don't know if I can still cry.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Set - yup,  my DH can def take or leave it, he's always been the same though really.  Whenever we've talked about it (usually when I'm feeling a bit miffed about it all!) he always says that there are other ways of showing that he loves and cares about me, it doesn't always have to revolve around   which of course is very true...but....like you, I'm by no means always mad for it, but you can't beat that feeling of true intimacy and I do miss that sometimes.  It's also always caused a bit of tension at the 'right time' for ttc, as of course it's always very obvious when I start becoming a bit more demanding    Btw, the chocs sound fab!!

JBT, another ******** fan!  Cool!  No probs, I'll keep a look out for your mojo too, they've gotta be out there somewhere?!  DH keeps saying "why don't you do some pottery?" (I can't be bothered), "why don't you do some sewing?" (I can't be bothered), "why don't you do some reading?" (I can't be bothered).  I don't like this 'can't be bothered' mood I'm in as it's usually my craft stuff that helps keep me sane  

xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Nosilab i hear you sister, baking and home stuff was my retreat now not so much. Walking started to be agood release now not so much   

I just want to feel alive again, dh doesn't understand because he has things he does with friends. He just thinks I'm miserable.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - maybe I should post you some rhubarb when mine starts growing?

Vicky - My pooch used to cry too on long journeys (and puke) and then we got him a crate and he is happy as larry in there with no crying and no being sick. I´ve no idea what dog you have or what car you have so its maybe not practical anyway but he loves it. He know its his spot so he just snuggles up to sleep. Its also crash tested too so he´s nice and safe.

Nosilab - apathy is just the pits. You get frustrated with yourself about it but still can´t muster the energy/enthusiasm to do anything about it. It drives my DH crazy. 

set - oooh, maybe you pamper yourself a bit and go for a massage or something after getting your hair done. Make it a day of over indulgence ........... although I suppose you had that over the weekend with all that chocolate


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat I think that's a great idea however I am not sure it will get here alive  There are a few places here that cater to expats so I am going to check one of them to see if the import it and try it out   If I find it and test it I will let you know. It was just last night DH and I were watching one of my cooking shows and they were using rhubarb and he asked me what it was, he says is it always red? I know they come in a variety of colours from green to red did some reading! Anyway still feeling a bit down in the dumps, fil returned last night   can you imagine his own daughter didn't want to keep him past 3 days, and I am supposed to sheesh these people are unreal! 

Morning to all you other ladies... I must say my walking has gone through the door haven't been in weeks, I am such a bum. I don't know how much american tv you all get but that's what we get here with cable but my shows come on in the evenings and with the time difference it cuts into my walking time   So I need to devise a new plan start walking in the mornings again. We used to get up at 5 a.m. and do about an hour that was great then we slacked off and you know how that goes...

Have a great day all, not sure I will...


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

JBT - the rhubarb in my garden is coming on nicely now that we finally have some decent weather in the UK, so I can be your back-up supplier if you like!  I haven't done much baking with rhubarb, I generally just go for the staple English favourite of rhubarb crumble, although I have also made rhubarb chutney which is divine.  

Nosila - I'm with you on the apathy, I used to enjoy making jewellery but haven't done any for months now.  DH keeps nagging me to get back into it but I 'can't be bothered' either!  I'm hoping that the nicer weather may give me the kick up the bum I need to at least get out into the garden or on my bike in the evenings.  We'll see.

Kat - sadly I don't chat regularly to my FF friends any more.  There was a group of us who used to do a weekly online chat back when we were all TTC.  One by one they all either got pg or moved on and although we're still friends on ******** I rarely hear from them and they all live a long way away from me.  It's quite telling that of all of us I'm the only one who's mad enough to be still be on this roller coaster...  I have looked on the regional boards to see if there is anyone near me that I could get to know, but they all seem to be at the 'eager beaver' stage of their first or second rounds of tx and the last thing they need is a war weary old trout like me coming in to crush their hopes!!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies,

Yep, the apathy really does suck!  Can't believe I'm not even looking forward to pottery tomorrow as it wasn't that long ago that that was the highlight of my week (other than the weekend), now I'm almost dreading it, I don't want it to become a chore, I'm supposed to enjoy it and it used to be my little bit of escapism   It definitely feels like that Kat, that I get frustrated with myself but then still can't make myself get up and do something!  

JBT, I think I need to try and get out and do walking again, that would do me good and DH would come out with me so that's more likely to encourage me.  Walking in the morning sounds lovely, a great way to start the day  

Waikiki, I love the idea of making jewellery, but I'd best not start another craft! I have enough on the go already that are all half started/finished.  Yes, let's hope the warmer weather helps to lift our mood and get us out doing things.  I love getting out in our garden too    That's very sad about your FF friends, and a shame they all live so far away.  It's interesting that you say that the majority of those on your regional board are 'eager beavers', it got me thinking that there almost needs to be a regional board in each section of this site, rather than just general ones.  That way the meets ups would be more relevant to those in the group and therefore everyone could relate to one another and that particular stage of treatment or moving on.  Guess that would make things a bit too complicated though?!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Waikiki - I think avoiding eager beavers is best for you not them. You know you wouldn´t ´crush their hopes´ at all and you´d be looked at as some kind of goddess, I don´t think it would be helpful for you though. Unfortunately for you though I still have your email address from our previous life so I can bother you to my hearts content ........... and you are not so far from my parents and friends ............ fancy meeting when I´m over next time? I´m meeting 2 FF´ers in a couple of weeks and we all live in different countries so are meeting in the middle. It would be nice if we all lived nearer but then it wouldn´t be as exciting when we did meet, so maybe having friends spread out is not so bad. 

JBT - I´m going to look for rhubarb jam today to send to you although don´t get too excited as Norway is not all that far behind you on the lack of products in shops so it might not even exist.

Nosilab - GO TO POTTERY! It´ll be good when you get there, its the getting off the sofa and out of the house that is the hard bit. My DH got wise to my apathy and was quite clever about bullying me into doing stuff knowing that once I was out of the house it would be OK. Maybe you need to tell your DH to get a bit bossy with you and explain you need his help with motivation. Be careful though, they can get cunning and start sending you to the shops and stuff for your own ´therapy´  

I´ve got my hospital followup shortly to find out if the op was a success and find out how much pain is normal and how long its going to last  . I know there are lots of shorties on this thread and it must be a hassle sometimes but there are benefits. The longer the nerve the longer the nerve pain lasts and I´ve got a 34 inch inside leg ................................

 to everyone not posting at the moment. I hope you are OK.
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Heehee!! Ok Kat!! I'll go to pottery tonight!    I promise to go and get stuck into some good old throwing.  I like the idea of asking DH to help encourage me, I'll ask him tonight - but yes, I can see he might take advantage of that too - I'll keep a close eye on him  

When is your follow up appt?  Fingers crossed that they're pleased with your progress and recovery.  Keep us posted.

xx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Nosila - throwing lumps of clay around sounds very theraputic, so you go for it!!    I picked up a jewellery making magazine at the supermarket last night, after I realised just how lazy I have become recently.  I'm hoping that some of the designs will inspire me to get back into it.  

Kat - Ah yes, you do have my email address, so feel free to stalk me at will!  I would love to meet up when you are next over in the UK - just let me know when you'll be here.    
I think you're right about the eager beavers by the way - I recently found out that my cousin's wife has been having her first IVF cycle.  They know nothing about our IF and my first instinct was to get on the phone and reassure her that I was there for her if she needed me.  Then I thought, hang on a minute, how will you cope if she gets pg on her first tx and you've shared all of your IF past only to be left behind once again as she sails off into mummy land.  So I didn't call her.    I know that makes me a very unsupportive person, but tbh a few years ago one of my friends got pg on her first IVF just as my first DE cycle failed and it nearly killed me.  I had shared all of the details of my journey with her and just felt that I exposed too much of myself to her (emotionally speaking!)
So I'm waiting to see what happens - if the cycle is not successful then maybe I will feel more able to talk to her about it as she will have 'earned' her IF stripes by then.  I know, that even sounds mad to me when I say it out loud.  

I'm off to Amsterdam for a long weekend later on today, so will be offline until Monday.  Have a good weekend ladies and I'll be back soon.

 waikiki


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

waikiki - i don´t think thats unsupportive at all and I think its important that we take care of ourselves as well as look out for everyone else. And I completely understand how vulnerable it makes you feel when you´ve shared too much with somebody. Its good to talk but there are limits   . Have a fab weekend    


I also like the idea of throwing clay about. I´m guessing its not acceptable to throw it at people   

Followup appt box ticked. Apparently all is as it should be and the pain is normal - the nerves are still damaged and stuff (no idea what) is still inflamed and there is nothing I can do to help speed things up. I got a big gold star for being able to stand on my toes today for the first time though, although it was soon cancelled out by the fact I had walked all the way to the hospital  . Luckily she hadn´t registered that I´d need to walk all the way back again too which is up hill all the way. I got the all clear to start physio tomorrow though. Dh bought my back a huge bar of Swiss chocolate from his travels so I´m just getting my endorphin hit before I see the psychologist this afternoon


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Throwing clay is _very _ theraputic. I also think it's quite acceptable to throw clay at people "oops sorry! It just slipped out of my hand" type thing 

Waikiki - good for you buying the magazine, hopefully that will give you some inspiration - maybe we can try and encourage each other?! I think you've been very sensible re not telling your cousin's wife. We need to choose when is the right time to let our guard down and disclose such personal info. I think you've chosen the best route. I liked the bit about 'earning her IF stripes', love that phrase  Enjoy Amsterdam.

Kat - fab news re the follow up! When you said the appt was "shortly" I didn't realise you meant today, I thought you meant sometime over the next fews weeks. Sounds like they're really pleased with you and great news about physio tomorrow. Tho chocolate is well earned - enjoy!


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

*nordikat* great news on the fu the stress of not knowing what they'll say is always going to be hard whatever the treatment or operation. Hope physio goes well.

*waikiki* hope you have a great time in Amsterdam and the weather behaves for you. I've never been but have been told its lovely.

My baby (Freddie) is a cockapoo and he's a year on Monday. He does go in a crate in the car as he used to just jump around too much but unless its on the way back he's not great. I think he worries he's missing out lol. He'd be happiest on my lap watching the world go by but dh doesn't like that says its not safe.

The whole apathy thing I find comes in spates. Sometimes I'm really positive and keep myself busy others I just want to curl up. Boredom or routine is a problem. I'm used to working long hours with a busy job. I do get jealous of dh talking about work as we come from the same 'world' so I understand what he's saying.

The ff thing is a bit of an issue as we had a local group (I live in essex) but again most of them have had babies and then seem to leave. I've tried to get it going again without much luck. Which is a shame as it was a good support network. I suppose once people have what they want they move on and don't feel like they've got anything in common with others anymore. It's a bit soul destroying as I feel the longer the IF goes on the more ostracised we're becoming from the world, friends and family. I got asked the age old 'so do you have kids' question again yesterday and its hard not to say 'no I'm one of those sad women for whom it never works' you feel like a freak and no one know how to react apart from saying I'm sorry which just feels like I'm being patronised or pitied.

Oh well onwards and upwards ladies at least the sun has made an appearance today which is always a mood booster. Hope you all have great weekends we've got ss so prob won't get much of a chance to log on.

Xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Rhubabrb jam, hmmm sounds like a good starter to the unknown. I am hoping to go to the US in a few months so I will definitely try to look for it and try it out there.

You ladies are so lucky to live in Europe, you have so many interesting places to go visit. I hear Amsterdam is really nice my brother and his family were in Holland a few weeks ago and loved it. I have to live vicariously through you all   Hope and Dream. I have wanted to live in a foreign country for so long now but many countries don't want us in their country sadly.

Having a very unproductive day today I hope it get's better   Doubt it though

Go to pottery Nosilab. I wish I had a hobby I could go do. Been thinking of getting back into baking again and selling it, I used to many years ago when a friend of mine had a restaurant but not so anymore.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - So how was pottery?

I just did something really naughty in the cafe  . There was a guy trying to persuade his small child that he should have the small fruit teacake for breakfast but the kids was eyeing up this really big cinnamon bun. So I told the little boy that the cinnamon bun was really really good    . No way was dad getting away buying anything else then. Oh and I came in to work today to discover that 2 instruments in our lab have been named after the responsible peoples kids. My instrument had been given a really boring name since I don't have kids but I´ve changed it and now its named after my dog which just happens to be a name that Norwegians can't pronounce!

Back later


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

Nordickat  you are naughty lol  xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Right back again with more more time on my hands.


JBT - Europe is fab, but trips to the US like you do are just an exciting dream for some of us. The grass is always greener hey    I hope today was better than yesterday, closer to the weekend if nothing else.  

VickyT - Oh my word, I googled cockapoo and they are sooooo gorgeous    What colour is he? I don´t envy you with a 12 month old though ........ another 6 months of teenage hell for you   . In our old car we tried pooch in the boot as a puppy and he got so scared he just pooped and puked everywhere so then he was on the back seat after that. Then as an adult we had one the the seats down and he was on the other seat. He wandered into the boot, had a poo and then just came back and sat down like it was normal. He obviously thought that was where he was supposed to poo. It was very gross but very funny. We sold that car   . I´m very careful about who I befriend on FF these days and I only talk properly with those that ´have their strips´as waikiki said because like you, it just sucks the life out of me when I´m left behind. I stick with the people that, even though they may still get pg one day, I know the friendship will continue because I´m Kat and rather than because I´m infertile. Does that even make sense? 

Nosila - When I asked how pottery was, I think I really meant ´did you accidentally ´slip´ with any clay?´  

Had physio - ouch   . It was OK actually, she is really nice and really pleased with my recovery and thats always a morale boost isn´t it? Hard to be grumpy when somebody else is so upbeat. I´m home alone now for what feels like forever. Boys weekend snow kiting in a place not suitable for hop-along Kat and her hop-along hound   . Both boys asked for 2L of wine while I was in the wine monopoly though so not sure how much kiting will be done    Dh is back for  2 nights before going away again for a week, back again for a night, away for a week .......... and repeat until June. I´m planning movies, wine and chocolate but I don´t think it´s sustainable for the next 6/8 weeks ........... I´ll either be an alcoholic or a fatty ........... oh my word, I could become both  . 

Sunny weekends one and all, 
Katxxx


PS. Vicky - it was worth it for the sight of the little boys eyes glowing at me while he held his bun in both hands ............ and for the big mans eyes glaring at me


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Ah Nordickat loving your work on bun gate. I quite frequently pipe into overheard conversations where munchkin wants puppy or horse to advise that "every little girl/boy should have one", it's a small joy but one we must take at all opportunties. Keep it up.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies

Kat you are right the grass is always greener on the other side... Nope not having a better day with or without the weekend... secretly I wish i had your husband's schedule! 

Anyway went to look at cars today even though I don't think we can afford it but went anyway... so let's see where it leads...


Truth be told what would make me happiest is getting a new job and working full time, to have that little extra to at least enjoy life a little! That is my wish right now, so more anon ladies.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

This weekend is the only fun trip DH has JBT, the rest is all traveling to meetings and seeing nothing of the place he is visiting. It's not at all glamorous. But it's a job though, a job he is good at, is respected for and sometimes secretly enjoys, and that's important and something you just have to keep searching for.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

As it turns out, pottery was really enjoyable.  I had lots of laughs and giggles and made 3 bowls.  So I'm glad I went, thanks for the gentle encouragement    Sadly no 'throwing' clay at people though, although sometimes I wish I could in my day to day life  

Fab news about your physio appt Kat, that is most definitely a moral boost. I agree the bun gate is very funny!  Well done and can picture both sets of eyes looking at you lol!

JBT    hope something comes your way soon.

Massive hello to everyone, hope you're all ok and have a good weekend.  I'm off to the theatre tonight to see something called Midnight Tango.  Really looking forward to it!

xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies I have to forewarn this a me post... first I must say that the whole unhappiness re job is just a distraction to the under lying problem of being childless and infertile! With that said let me tell you my little annoyance at the moment:

So DH says to me this morning that ss is coming with his mother and her 2 children for 6 weeks in the summer, no surprise there since he comes every summer. Here's the kicker, I said to him don't expect them (meaning the 2 toddler children from ex wife) to come here (to our house). So he looks shocked, I say to him did you think that would be ok and comfortable for me? He says he didn't think I would have a problem with it! Now by this time steam is coming out my ears because it just goes to show how disconnected he is to my feelings and emotions about the whole IF issue. He then turns to say he didn't know I was so bitter! Bitter, the nerve of that man... I thought he knew how I was suffering with this issue, not to mention my having to cope with his father who is just making my life a living hell! Can you imagine having his ex wife's 2 toddler children plus ss visiting my home!? in my space...  Can yo imagine how uncomfortable that would be for me... and he has the nerve to be upset with me that I am feeling the way I am!

I was so absolutely livid that he doesn't even realize that not only would I be around these children but I would have to be the one responsible for them in my home! This woman is not my friend she had nasty things to say about me when ss lived with us much more for me to welcome her 2 children! no freaking way. But most importantly the fact that dh thought it would be ok! Says he to me, so what if ss wants to see his brother and sister, well to hell with him he goes to where they are staying and see them! What the hell? 

Please tell me I am not making a mountain out of a mole hill. The sad thing about it I had no one to talk to who would truly understand on the IF front, when I called my best friend in the states she said no freaking way are they allowed to come to your house! But she is looking at it in the light of the responsibility and the fact that that woman is NOT my friend! 

I really wish I had you ladies here so that i could really feel sane. I don't even have an escape, no family member to hide out at or anything  I feel more lonely now than ever before because at least I once thought I had dh on my side for a change. I really feel like I could just leave. I will definitely be travelling when ss is here, dh can see how it feels to take care of his father and child for a week without me.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh JBT that's just awful. It's wrong for so many reasons. I completely understand how you must feel utterly betrayed by your DH. The fact he has arranged it all without thinking about you is almost worse than the fact you'd be expected to care for somebody else's little ones. I don't think you are being unfair or irrational,
I think your DH sounds like he is being heartless. 

So as not to be biased though, maybe he just got so carried away in his excitement of 6 weeks with his boy and just didn't think. When you have calmed down then you can maybe talk to him. When he has had time to think he might even realise how unfair he has been. And he maybe didn't mean the bitterness comment in a cruel way. Is it possible that now he knows how upset you are that he is trying to sort out alternatives?

I felt I had to try and see it from both sides to make it fair but I'm not making light of it and I can imagine how hurt you are and how you want to run away and hide from it all. I'm sorry all I can offer are my thoughts through the ether. I wish there was more I could do. Thinking of you though and hoping this works out.

Katxxx

PS. I'm not sure this comes into the 'little annoyance' category, more like flipping massive upset xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Sorry i may have missed a step, they won't be staying here! Good god no then he would have down right lost his mind. It all started by me saying they best not think they were welcome here meaning the 2 toddlers notthe son. And he said why, that's wher  it all began my expressing my discomfort erc still to try think he thought it was ok for them to freely visit is preposterous. Kat i do feel betrayed i feel like he isn't even thinking of my feelings. Kat i am so annoyed.


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

You know the more  i think about all this is the more upset i get. This woman used to say such nasty things about me. To think i wasn't even the one who broke them up! So for him to even think i wouldn't mind her children visiting in my home is ridiculous. I am so hurt and disappointed. I know i am rambling but this truly hit a chord because if no one else i thought he was on my side and knew how i was hurting. Now i realize that he think  this IF issue is not important.

Sorry for the me me me.


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

JBT as someone with a ss and hateful ex who has 2 more children I can totally empathise. Whether  visiting or staying it'd  be a resounding NO BLOODY WAY. It's bad enough that I cook, clean, wash, drop at school etc for a child that is not mine and a constant reminder of what SHE can do that I plainly can't let alone have it shoved  in my face that had dh not left her he could have had more children so easily - she's  had 3 pg in 4yrs - she aborted 1. I dont want to play childminder or nanny to her children. So you have not lost the plot nor are you being unreasonable. Quite frankly he is by thinking you'd be okay with it. It's hard enough being a childless step parent without adding to it all.  If dh did that I'd go mental seriously as it undermines your hurt at your IF .

Sorry that wasn't at actually neutral and very biased but I just thought about if it was me in that situation. I relly hope you can make him see sense. I feel you need a huge hug and a face to face rant which must be o hard for you.    xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Morning JBT xxx I hope when you wake up today you come straight on here are see Vicky's post. Maybe when you talk to DH you can tell him its not just you who feels like this, you're not being unreasonable, you are reacting like anyone else on your situation does, DH too no doubt if the tables were turned.

Vicky - you are allowed to be biased because you know how JBT feels xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning ladies,

Kat i did come straight on to see Vicky's response i was really hoping she would read my post because i knew she of all people would understand. Vicky you do not sound biased and i do wish you were here or i there so i could for once talk to someone who totally understands.

Vicky thank you for your response i no longer feel like the  wicked stepmother my ss once told a neighbour i was! Yes he did, he went next door to play with the kid an  he told the kid's parents i was a wicked step mother. Vicky i know what you mean abt it all! Been there done that!

Kat dh growth message loud and  clear he doesn't get it but i don't care it's my sanity. He says I've made up my mind so there is mo need to discuss it. Well good for him. If it comes up again i will let u all know, but i doubt it will as o am stoll mad and he knows it.

Thanks again ladies for not msking me feel like a freak.


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## LellyLupin (Nov 12, 2011)

JBT  I too am a childless stepmother to two kids.  When I first got with DP his wife had ran off with one of his friends who had 4 kids.  When DP and I bought a house and had his kids staying, quite often they would bring one of the other guys kids with them.  It was weird at first but then we came to realise that kids are innocent and have no concept of other peoples feelings/issues.  However adults do,  so your DH should have discussed it with you first.  If he digs his heels in and wants these other two kids to visit,  then make it his total responsibility and go out.  Saying that after 11 years of stepkid and exwife battles with DP, I have come to realise that by getting upset and causing a fuss EW was actually winning,  as DP and I were arguing all the time.  If you really want to  annoy EW,  win over and get close to SS, I have noticed that the closer I get to my stepkids, the more EW withdraws them.  Honestly there is nothing worse for a mother than their kid loving someone else. Try it and see, it will also bring you and DH closer much to EWs annoyance xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Leslie I have tried getting close to ss and did all that you have  suggested, didn't work. Ex is a real pain and has turned ss against me big time. But i must say ss and I are getting better communicating, he does live in another country with his mother so we don't see him that often. And quite frankly I have absolutely no interest in having her kids in my house, sorry. I have been apart of ss life for 13 years, he lived with for 2. There is absolutely no good reason why those kids would need to come to my house. If ss wants to see his brother and sister he can go to where they are staying. Why should I leave my house to facilitate them, nope they wouldn't do it for me. I know it's not the kids fault etc but I am not taking them on too. Sorry but for once I have to stand my ground on this one, I have  to put up with other things I can't manage anything else. I have  to look out for my sanity. I do appreciate and accept everything you are saying but in this case I am not budging she has made too many negative remarks about me. Hey she may not even want he  kids coming over which is fine by me.


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## LellyLupin (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok let us know how you get on,  and I do hope DP listens and doesn't let them come over  .  I know this blended family lark is not easy, if I had known 11 years ago what I know now,  I would have ran a mile and kept running


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree with you there ran for the hills!

I think he'll respect m  wishes since I have expressed my concerns. He's been super nice and affectionate so I know he knows i'm upset about it but not to the point of not speaking t  each other. We know the battles to pick. I just need dh to understand how hard this all is. Work in progress.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Just wanted to pop on and say a very quick hello and let you know I haven't disappeared. My notify email didn't seem to work for a few days and then I randomly popped on and saw there had been tonnes of chat that I'd missed! JBT - hope you're doing OK - that sounds like a total nightmare. I hope things are sorting themselves out. 
Anyway, I'm too tired to say anything sensible but just wanted to let you know I'm still lurking and thinking of you all. I'll catch up properly soon.
Hugs to all
Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hope you are doing ok JBT? And everyone else of course 

No time for more as heading for tea with my friend and her 3 kids, and if that doesn't sound chaotic enough, my dog is coming too!!!! Think bull in a china shop, then add 3 lunatics waving red rags and that's my evening lol. 

Love to you all, Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Everyone has been so quiet, that could either mean you are all super busy or happy happy happy!

Kat I am doing ok, thanks. Subject has not been brought up again and quite frankly I am not approaching it again. Everything else is in limbo. Afternoon tv sounds lovely, I am sure it will be loads of fun and chaotic at the same time   Let us know how it turns out!

Hi to all the other ladies.

Enjoy the rest of the day. Janie I hope you are doing well also.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

One minor incident involving big hairy dog bundling small child on the sofa, oh and a chewed ball as well, but other than that we all came away unscathed. And as an added bonus for me, my poor boy is so tired he hasn't moved since we got home  Unfortunately for my friend, she is now dealing with the 'I want a dog' fall out and bedtime stories had to be about dogs lol.

Sometimes it's best to let he dust settle for a while before going back to stuff JBT. Give your DH time to think about how important this is to you.

Night all,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Turns out running around playing football with small boys and a pooch isn´t recommended 5 weeks after back surgery ......... bit like going snowboarding with a prolapse I guess   . Will I ever learn hey   . I´m home alone so have to walk the dog still so its beach stroll to coffee shop for us in a bit then sofa and book. 
I hope you are all living slightly more rock and roll lives than me!
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat sounds like you are living the rock and roll life  get some rest


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi everyone just a quick hail, everyone is pretty quiet. Hope all is well, have a good weekend.


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## Vickytick (Feb 25, 2011)

Hi ladies I've been popping on but as you've said its really quiet on here at the moment.

*JBT* I'd let the dust settle and see what happens in a little while. Sometimes Men are too stupid to pick up signs and need a sledgehammer of information before they understand. Not sure subtle is even a word in their brains.

*Nordickat* Sounds like you had fun but are paying for it now. Think a walk on the beach and a rest with a book sounds lovely. Its been raining most of the day so I've not been out with the dog hoping it eases up soon so I can go. Normally I'd go anyway but already got wet walking ss to school this morning so don't fancy doing it again. Hope you are not too lonely though at home.

I was doing really well, probably as we are going away on Tuesday to Tenerife for a week of sun and relaxation but ss upset me with something he said this morning. We were talking about what school mine and DH child would go to if we had one and he said 'you might not have a child some people don't'. He has an inkling, as far as a 7yr with aspergers can, that we've struggled as we don't hide it but don't discuss it with him either. I just reacted and said 'I'll have a child somehow'. He has aspergers so can be quite blunt without realising it but I'm more concerned what dh ex has been saying to him or in front of him about our ttc (she knows it all). It just hit me that he's actually right I might never have a child but to hear that from a 7 yr hurt and made me think. Joys of kids eh..I'll just have to shake myself out of it and look forward to my hols.

Have a great weekend all whatever you are doing  x


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

Vickytick, if you're on the adoption journey you aren't allowed to try IVF or to conceive a birth child. Certainly that's what the rules are in our la, you have to wait at least six months after IVF, can't continue trying to conceive etc etc. Perhaps its different where you are though.?


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Vicky put all thoughts like that out if your head and think holidays and sunshine  SS comment is just as likely to been completely unrelated to you, maybe they were talking about families at school and teacher explained that not all families are the same.  And anyway, you are right and you will have a child somehow - you are too determined not to. Hang on to that thought, but most importantly have fun in the sun. I've not been too lonely really and DH is back tomorrow with lots of presents for me ;-)

Rest worked wonders JBT, until physio today anyway lol. Next time i'm on online I want reports from you of a good long walk or some therapeutic baking. Actually you've got a week to do one of each before I'm back to check in you ;-)

All ok my end. DH is away so I'm busy, although busy dong what I don't know lol. Pooch frothing at the mouth after sniffing girl dogs bits lol, the little floozy is on heat flaunting herself at him and he's now all of a dither! Off to Germany next week to drink wine and eat cake with a couple of FF buddies and I'm not sure I'll have time to post again before then, if not then happy weekends to you all and catch up next weekend.

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Just popping in quickly to say hello and that I'm still here, reading and lurking.  Not much to say really, no updates either way.  Just plodding on at the moment.

Hope you've all had a lovely relaxing weekend, shame the weather isn't better, could have done with some sun and blue sky!  Ah well, I'm obviously expecting too much, this is the UK afterall!  

Speak soon xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

I'm just dipping my toe back in here. Bit like Nosilab I've been lurking and reading but haven't really had the energy to post. I'll fill my boots with cake and chocolate and hopefully find some energy on the back of a sugar rush  

Hello to the new ladies on here, catch up with everyone soon

Jen xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Jen

Yep, I think that's it - it's the lack of energy at the mo, but I agree that cake and chocolate will do the trick - I'm on the case!  

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

and   to both of you. Lethargy is the pits I know.

I fly to Germany tomorrow and I plan on trying Jens cake and chocolate tip although I shall also be adding vino too.

Hang in there both of you. Once the sun starts to shine it does help with everything just a little bit.

Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Right, s0d the quietly lurking, I need to let off some steam and know that here, at least, people will understand.

After the mother of all [email protected] weeks last week I'm back at work, trying to get my head round the past 4 weeks of daring to believe the FET had worked. It ended, badly, last Monday and tomorrow I go back to the clinic to find out whether I need medication, or possibly an EPRC. I've cried bucketfuls over the past weeks, and will no doubt continue to do so for a while to come. 

I had to tell work. They kind of knew anyway, it's a small office and the many appointments we've had over the past few weeks have not gone unnoticed (nor, I'm sure, have the teary moments or the frequent trips to the loo). One of my colleagues (someone I have worked with for 12 years) has a sister who had several rounds of IVF so I kind of thought she might get it. Was I ever wrong?! I'm sat here whilst she shows some of the others in the office some photos of her twins when they were 18 months old (they're now 4 so I'm not sure of why the sudden need to take a trip down this particular memory lane). This is 20 minutes after I emailed to let her know I'll be off tomorrow (and yes, she does know why). Last week she sent me a text to ask if I was having a D&C - if I did I'd be super-fertile afterwards, apparently. Doh! If I'd known that I'd have just asked for one earlier and saved ourselves the past 6 years of heartache  . 

On the plus side a lovely friend of mine turned up yesterday with a bunch of flowers, a box of chocs and a big hug. She listened and passed the tissues and I'll forever be grateful for her getting past the 'I have no idea what to say' awkwardness.

I suspect feeling angry is no bad thing, it certainly beats breaking down again which was the other option.

So much for the gently easing back in here; I feel like I'm slamming a few doors and stamping my feet in a teenager inspired strop.

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh Jen I'm so pleased you have finally posted and let us all in.    Life sucks, it truly does. You know my heart is breaking for you   .

For all the people out there that hurt us with their thoughtlessness, there is always another good person who does just 'get it'. I'm so pleased your friend did just the right thing. There are no words for the loss of your tiny baby and of your hopes and dreams, and I'm glad your friend knew that and just let your tears flow. Surround yourself with your true friends now and keep space between you and those that will hurt you more.

Your baby was too special for this cruel world. Sleep tight little one   .

Thinking of you always, 
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh Jen, I don't even know where to start.    
It's just beyond unfair.  It really is on this thread where I'm genuinely wholeheartedly rooting for you ladies and I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this Jen. That you're even in work right now is truly remarkable so to then have to suffer your colleague's insensitivity (at best) / cruelty is just awful. I sometimes wonder whether the women who make such remarks are even the same species. So much for the sisterhood.

I'm not surprised you've cried a bucket load of tears. I'm sure there are more to come, it sounds as though there may be some tough times ahead still. Is your DH back from overseas, I really hope you're not having to go through all this alone. I really wish there was something I could say or do to help. You know we're here if you need to rant or just let it all out. Are you able to take a bit more time off work? Could you get signed off by your GP? I know that's not right for everyone but don't underestimate what you're going through and take it if you need it and you are able to.

Take care - I've been thinking of you over the last few weeks and I'm so sorry about what you're having to go through. 

Janie xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Jen, I'm holding the tears back whilst reading your post (only because DH is in the room, otherwise I'd be in floods).

My heart really does break for you, I soooo wish we all lived closer as I just want to jump in my car this minute and whizz over to yours.  Sadly I can't do that but you know I'm sending you lots of love and   from down here in the South.

The insensitivity of some people (especially women!) is just beyond belief, it really is!!  It makes me so   mad.  You just need to make sure that you look after yourself and distance yourself from your work colleague as much as you possibly can. I hope you chose not to reply to her incredibly insensitive text message?  She doesn't deserve to know anything.

As the others have said, thank goodness for your wonderful friend who turned up with some much needed hugs and a shoulder to cry on, the flowers and chocs were also very welcome I'm sure    She sounds like a very special and true friend.

I say "pah" to easing back in gently!  No need to do that, if you need us we're here and always ready to listen and give virtual hugs  

I am so so very sorry to hear of your loss Jen, life is so cruel, I could burst into tears right now just thinking about your broken heart.

Sending much love xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Jen I have been quietly reading and not posting but I couldn't read your post and not respond. Lots of hugs to you and some people can be so senseless it's like they just don't think about other people's feelings when they say or do certain things. That makes me so mad, and to think this person knows what you have been going through sheesh!

It is always nice when you have that one special person who can be there for you. As Nosilab said I wish we all lived closer, we could meet up for a drinkie! Just wash away those sorrows at least for the moment.

We are here for you if needed. Have something yummy it won't solve much but it will make you at least feel better at the time.

Hi to all the other ladies Kat have a nice time in Germany! I am falling deeper and deeper into a dark place no baking going on here, but maybe tomorrow when I am off work. If I do I will let you all know! I have a fruit and nut muffin in mind actually so we'll see what happens


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

JBT, I'm getting worried about you    I'm watching you (virtually) like a hawk!  I want you to promise me that you'll get baking tomorrow, no "maybe", please do it!  You need to try and do something to try and lift your spirits a wee bit. I know it won't solve your worries, but I just think it might help give you a little bit of escapism.  I know I'm a fine one to talk when I've been feeling apathetic recently (so I really ought to take my own advice   ) but you're sounding very low and I want to try and support and encourage you, even if it is across the miles.  I know you said logistically things were difficult for you re counselling, but were you able to give it any more thought? xx

Kat, hope you have a wonderful time in Germany, enjoy the cake, choc and vino    Btw, thank you for the lovely words of support and encouragement xx

Janie, hope you're ok?  Thinking of you xx

Hi to all, even if you're reading and lurking in the background   xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

JBT, I'm worried about you too. I guess I'd also taken a temporary step back from the thread over the last couple of weeks but I've been reading and I know you've been having a horrible time too. From the sounds of things, it's not getting any better for you just now. I don't like the thought of you spiralling into a darker place... please keep talking to us. And bake! Bake for us all... hell, we could all do with one of those muffins. 

Nosilab, I hope things have steadied out for you and you're finding some peace and headspace. Today was one of those days when I would dearly loved to have got in a car and joined you all too. 

Kat - have a fantastic time in Germany with your friends. I hope you have a great time - you deserve it. 

I had another counselling session today. I had been doing really well... and maybe that's why I've not been speaking up too much on this thread... but seemingly the emotions are all still there as I burst into tears on the counsellor. Having problems making the final break from treatment. Today doesn't seem like the day to dwell on that though. 

Thinking of you all tonight and sending you all the strength I can muster for tomorrow Jen. Take good care of yourself.
 

Janie xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

PS
Kat - I finished the Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake and I'm now almost finished with The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. Have loved both, particularly the latter. xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi Janie, funny how we've all taken a bit of a back step recently.  I can't even say why I have either, no real reason.  But I have been reading every day.  Things aren't too bad for me at the mo, I guess if I'm honest I feel confused sometimes about what I want and how I feel.  Feel like I'm going a bit   sometimes. It's weird isn't it, how our minds trick us into feeling ok, and then bam!  We're broken again, the sadness was still there lurking just under the surface waiting to pounce out and take us by surprise!  I hate that!  Take heaps of care   xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - try 'the hundred year old man who jumped out if the window and disappeared'. Good for stressful periods because its true pointless escapism and it will make you smile I promise. 

JBT - nosilab is going to take to gentle approach and 'encourage' you to bake etc, but you know me well enough after all these years to know softly softly is not my thing ;-) so get baking! I know it's hard to motivate yourself, but deep down you can remember the feeling if pleasure when you create something yummy 

Nosilab and Janie - those feelings of empty nothingness are what get me, and what leads to my apathy. I know counselling hurts Janie because you open those doors that you have been keeping closed and pretending that nothing is lurking behind them. My friend says its like having a sore and we know they don't heal unless we air them and we do need to keep gently peeling off the plaster to check they are not infected. Always good to do that with a counsellor at hand to apply the antiseptic afterwards 

Oh no flight boarding, just as I was getting into my flow of jibberish lol.

Jen - thinking of you today and hoping there is no need for any intervention xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks for the concern ladies.. Nosilab it's just so hard to get up and do it! Anyway I didn't bake but I went to the market bought some fresh produce and made fresh salsa, a black bean and corn salad and hot pepper pickle (it's scotch bonnet peppers soaked in vinegar with onions, carrots and pimento seeds) Was going to bake but so far haven't gotten there yet... it may still happen so let's see...

I just sometimes look at people I know and where they are in their lives, their accomplishments and family life and wonder if I had made different decisions where I would be. Now I know you never know what other people went through to get where they are and I get that but I still can't wonder if I will ever be too busy with my kids or will I have I job I love to get up and go to... It seems like I just can't get a break... I am in the process of looking at changing my car but even that I am unsure of... I watch tv and all these shows come on with babies and happy homes and busy lives, then I look at my life and I am bored and lethargic and no get up and go... I hate that! Anyway I am trying to get out of the funk truly I am... I am almost embarrassed to say that I have sent out so many resumes and responded to so many advts even a couple in my field and I have not gotten a call! I now feel even more useless and confidence is shot to hell! I am a smart person, I am loyal to my employers been with current one for 12 years... I have a degree, I know I need to re tool but I can't do that until I find a new job that pays me more to do so! Then I have to continue to delay my baby making process... wow when I write it all out I do sound pathetic      maybe I will go bake now at least I'll have something indulge in  

Mrs P how is your new gig, you seem busy cause you haven't been posting... Jen I hope you had a good day... Nosilab I really appreciate your concern, I do wish you all were closer we could have a wine and dessert party   Kat I know you will shake me up good and proper.  Today would have been 5 years since i lost all hopes of being a mommy naturally, I had surgery and lost my tube due to an ectopic pregnancy   It's strange this time of year Mother's Day in 2 weeks, I have had all my IVF procedures around this time and lost my babies around this time I was 8 weeks when I had surgery...

Have a good one ladies, will post again soon...


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi JBT

Trust me, you are far from pathetic!  You couldn't be further from the truth.  It's just a difficult time for you right now, a combination of things piling up on you, all trying to tempt you into a dark place.  We've all been there and some of us still are, so we all understand    I'm not sure what the job market is like where you are?  But it's pretty bad here which makes it even harder to muster up the energy and enthusiasm to look for a new job, but don't give up, keep at it and look to MrsP as your inspiration    Please don't feel embarrassed about sending lots of resumes etc, it just shows you are very determined!  When we're feeling so low it's so hard to see the positives we already have in our lives, we tend to only focus on the negatives - easy done, I know because I do it all the time.  But somehow, some where we need to try and look for those positives and inspiration, however small, and hold on to them tightly.  For example, the positive today is that you've made some really delicious food.  It's the only way to get through.  It is a shame we don't live near, if we did you could teach me to bake and I could teach you to make a pot    The wine and dessert party would be fab!  

Right, well, I'm off to bed but I hope you're in that kitchen baking something yummy as we speak - I'll look forward to hearing all about it!

Big hello to everyone, thinking of you all xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

I did it ladies! I baked    thank you all for your support... 

I hope it's good! I made fruit and nut sour cream pound cake... will put whipping cream on it when we are ready to eat. 

I made a few as cupcakes so I can take to work with me tomorrow   they would kill me if they knew I baked and didn't share... my husband plays dominoes at our house on a thursday so they will get the rest... will let you know how it turns out


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yay for JBT   - the cake sounds delicious and I wish we were all a bit nearer to share  

That awful lethargy can be so draining can't it? It all too easily infiltrates all aspects of our lives; at the minute I have no motivation to do anything around the house, do any work, meet friends etc etc. Yesterday afternoon I did manage to haul my backside off the sofa and dug over my veggie patch. I'm a bit late starting on it but better late than never and afterwards I felt I had at least achieved something! Those little step can lead to bigger ones. Try not to be so hard on yourself, I think we can all relate to the feeling that our lives are not all we wish they were but the last thing any of us need is to beat ourselves up about the what if's. We do our best and each one of us has strengths that we don't always recognise in ourselves.

Thank you all for your words of support, they really do mean the world to me and have given me a much-needed lift. It's amazing how different I feel after reading them. Fortunately there was no need for any intervention yesterday, they did the scan and we had a review with the consultant. I wasn't really expecting that so wasn't taking much in. Not that there's anything to learn really. They encouraged me to see their counsellor but I'm undecided whether to or not. My GP sorted out a referral to a psychologist some time ago and I met with her last week for the first time. It isn't really to deal with fertility stuff and as it's NHS will be for a limited length of time so I don't know whether to use those sessions for all this or not (the psychologist is aware of what's going on as I burst into tears within 2 mins of sitting down!). My head's a bit all over the place with it, I've seen a psychologist in the past privately but it came to an end when she went on maternity leave. Do I want to open those doors again? Sorry for the rambling, I just don't feel I can talk to anyone about this!

HB has been here for most of all this. He was away when I was having repeat blood tests but was back before the mc and subsequent appointments. For the most part he's been great, it affected him quite a bit and he shed some of his own tears which made it feel like we were really in it together. He's moving on much more quickly though, as I guess is normal. He did at one point tell me that it wasn't a baby, that I hadn't lost anything significant. This was the day after him tearfully telling me that he felt a void, that he'd felt there were 3 of us. I've since told him how hurtful his comment was and that whilst it was a very early mc, it was still a very real loss. I guess we're both dealing with it in our own way and for the time being at least I do feel I can talk to him and he's listening. 

I suspect this is all a bit disjointed, hopefully my thoughts will become a bit more ordered soon! In the meantime I'm sending lost of love to all you ladies xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Aww Jen, your thoughts are not disjointed at all. I feel your pain and wish you all the happiness in the world. Everyone does deal with things differently and maybe his thinking it wasn't a "baby" is his way of not thinking of it as a real loss if that makes sense. 

I hope you consider taking up the councelling option although I haven't done it, I wish I could, I think it is always good to talk to a professional or even someone who is unknown to you.  Failing which we are all hear to help you through this and offer our 2 cents worth  

I hope you are having a good day today.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

JBT!  I'm so very proud of you!  Way to go!     I knew you could do it and it sounds like it's done you the world of good.  Sounds yummy, wish I could try it, mmmmm!  Small steps and all that x

Jen, your post doesn't sound disjointed at all.  Well done for getting out on the veggie patch, that's no small feat when apathy hits.  We got out in the garden on Sunday to finally sow some seeds.  We then had a frost!    Hopefully they'll be ok though.  We're trying to create a bee and butterfly friendly garden, so we're trying to create a wild area at the top of the garden with meadow type flowers.

As for your HB, I agree with JBT.  My guess is that he said what he said as a kind of self preservation.  So even though it was very hurtful to you it was probably his way of coping with what happened, easier maybe for him to get his head around.  Maybe he thought it would help you too?  I don't know.  But yes, I agree, everyone deals with things very differently.  I'm glad you felt able to tell him that his comment was hurtful, that you were able to be honest with him.  I think you should definitely consider seeing the counsellor at the clinic, take advantage of whatever you can!  You could always go once and if it's not for you you don't have to go back?  You know where we are whenever you need us   xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks to you Nos & Kat! Now if i could just start walking again 

Btw everyone loved them at work


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ok, so my next task is to encourage you to get out and walk then    How about a little hour walk this weekend - something to look forward to?  Glad the cakes went down well at work - see, it was well worth doing - for everyone x


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks JBT / Nosilab - I hadn't thought of HB's comments in that light and for now I'll give him the benefit of the doubt   We've decided to have a meal out together this weekend, a belated wedding anniversary (our actual anniversary was the day we were supposed to have the first scan); it feels good to be doing something together. We might even dust off the tennis rackets though I can't summon much enthusiasm for that. JBT - maybe we could make a pact, I'll play tennis if you take yourself for a walk? 

I'm also trying to book a cottage for in a couple of weeks. Sounds nice? Not really; it's with the dreaded in-laws   HB's sister and brother in-law are visiting from the States and it's the only way we can all be together with the parents plus a niece and her hb. What that basically means is that we'll pay the bulk of it (despite HB not drawing a salary at the minute) and I'll have to listen to the same tired old jokes and stories. One variation will be the recent op my FIL has had, it was of a delicate nature but it didn't stop him posting me a message on ** thanking me for the card but telling me how he was having to get used to life without a catheter and how 'it' just did it's own thing now!! Really did not need to know that. Anyway I've found a lovely place in the Lakes with lots of room and a quick escape up a mountain if need be, and a pub within walking distance.

I bet you're all really pleased to have me back here, moaning on about the in-laws!!!

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I've ordered some veggie seeds for my raised beds I now just need to persuade the local cat population (including our two) that the lovely turned soil is not a giant cat litter tray... I do love the sound of your bee/butterfly friendly garden Nosilab  

Take care ladies xxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

It's a deal Jen. As long as you play tennis I will dust off the walking shoes.

Happy anniversary, ours is April as well.

Oh you gardeners I envy you all. I wish I had a green thumb but I kill cactus   

Have a great day everybody.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

It's a deal JBT, I've even bought some new tennis balls as ours have all lost their bounce! Happy Anniversary to you too  

As for the garden - I might plant things but that's often as far as it goes! I'm great at cultivating weeds...


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Morning all

Make sure you stick to your deal ladies!  Jen - tennis, JBT - walking.  I want full reports please!    I love the fact that I dish out the advice/encouragement but half the time can't even be bothered to move my own lazy bum!  BUT...hopefully all this chat will inspire me to get up and do something this weekend too.

As for the gardening, I'm very much an amateur!  But I just love being out there giving it a go and seeing what grows, it's all a bit 'trial and error' but it's good fun and very relaxing  

Jen, hmm holidaying with the in-laws doesn't sound great, you moan about them all you like - sounds like it's completely justified.  But the cottage in the Lakes right by a mountain sounds absolutely beautiful.

Have a good day ladies x


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## Billybeans (Jun 16, 2012)

Hello Ladies, I'm not sure if I should be in this section. My feelings are so mixed up. I have read some of your posts but not lots as there are 54 pages so it's hard to read more than a few.
 to you all.

As you can see from my signature. I have had subfertility problems. We have been ttc for 7years in August. I didn't have a sniff of a pregnancy until my 2nd icsi cycle, but on the 7weeks can there was no baby, just an empty sac. 3rd icsi also bfn. Then few mths after 3rd icsi 1st ever bfp naturally - miscarried early. One year later (last year) another natural bfp-miscarried early. All nhs miscarriage testing is normal.
So now I am asking the question "when do you know enough is enough?"
I am exhausted! I am currently back to ttc naturally again as advised by miscarriage consultant. Which I am doing and I am clinging on to hope but when do I give up hope without leaving it too long? I feel I would want to adopt rather than accepting a childfree life.
Most people I have asked say I will just know when the right time is to move on, but what happens when I don't know whether to ttc or to move on to adoption. If I don't know which road to choose how do I go down that road?


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi Billybeans - I can only speak from my own experience but I knew it was time to move to adoption when I nolonger saw it as a second choice (I´m not saying that in a bad way as if you are seeing it as second choice though ........ just not sure how to describe it  ). I wanted to be a mum and didn´t care how I achieved it so I nolonger saw tx as the first choice and then adoption as the next choice when tx fails. Does that make sense? I do honestly think you´ll know in your heart when its time to stop naturally and time to move to adoption but being exhausted and so emotionally drained makes it hard to see clearly 

JBT   hoorah for baking!

Jen - I hope you dusted off those tennis shoes. We did a long weekend last year with the outlaws and my own parents together ........ thats that boxed ticked and no need to go there again!! As for what to discuss with the psychologist, it depends on what is bothering you most at the time. For me, talking about the deep rooted cause of my depression is not an option if infertility is what is dragging me down, and vice versa. I think we maybe have to get through the surface stuff before we can go further back to the deeply buried stuff  (by surface stuff I don´t mean insignificant, I mean most recent)

Nosilab - I hope you were inspired to contemplate some form of activity after reading on here 

My trip to Germany was really really lovely, you know how it is with people you really connect with  . I think it was probably far too good though and I was relaxed enough to open too many doors in my head and now I´m struggling to get any of them closed again. Damn my openness! Its wearing me down a lot and I´m very fragile. Dh is away all week *again* and pooch seems to have really badly hurt his leg again somehow. We are going to the vets in the morning but he is so swollen and sore, and so very sad  .

 to everyone browsing and  to all, 
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning ladies,

Haven't been on all weekend. Jen how did the tennis go? Well I did manage to take a walk yesterday with DH it was short but at least we went, stopped and got ice cream and went home. We are going to attempt going again this evening. No baking this weekend. The weather did not permit for walking on Saturday which was the day I wanted to do a nice long stretch but we had buckets of rain! Jen I agree with Kat re what to talk about, find the one thing that is fore front and then work your way back maybe talking about that one thing will relieve the other things  

Nosilab how was your weekend? Any interesting stuff?

Kat glad you had a good time I was anxiously awaiting your report.

Billybeans - Sorry I have no words of wisdom this time around, but I do think you will know when the time is right to think about adoption. I haven't reached there yet but I am sure I will know when that is when the time comes. I hope you are feeling a bit better today. Please keep us posted on your developments.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

Billybeans - I'm not sure you suddenly reach a point where you absolutely know it's time to move on, more it can be a gradual process. 2 or 3 years ago the idea of stopping tx wasn't on the cards for me, I wasn't ready to make that decision. Over the past year or so I've been dipping my toe in that water, some days I feel ready to stop, other days I fight against the idea but as times goes by I am becoming more accepting of the idea that enough may well be enough. It sounds like you're at the start of that process, testing the water, considering the route of adoption. Maybe you're not quite there yet and just need to give yourself more time to get used to the idea. Deciding to adopt can mean you have to allow yourself to grieve the child you'll never carry so it's certainly not something that you can rush in to. If you have the option of counselling maybe that would help? It can give you the space to work through your fears and doubts and gradually arrive at your own answers. 

Kat - It's great that you had a good time in Germany, but I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling now. I understand it can be scary to open those doors and feel like you can't shut them off again, but it can sometimes signify a step forward too. I guess the real question for now is what strategies can you use to help get you through this? What advice you you give to someone in a similar situation?  I know for me I would need a combination of finding some distractions but also allowing myself to sit with it for a while, and perhaps recognising if I needed help from either friends or professionals. And as much as it must be awful to see Pooch in pain again, having to take care of him will give you an external focus. I hope that doesn't sound heartless, please do know that I want both you and Pooch to be ok  

JBT - well done on the walk   It doesn't matter if it was short, it was a start and it might just be the incentive you need to do it again. The tennis was good, though I lost spectacularly!  I'm going to have to go and get my knee checked though, even with a knee brace the injury I picked up skiing felt really sore (not that I'm using it as an excuse for my defeat, honest!). Apart from that I've had a weekend of painting the fence and shed, a BBQ with a couple of friends and generally chilling at home. Me and DH had a humdinger of a falling out on Saturday, I'm at a loss to remember what it was about but it was one of those that leave you wondering if it's the start of the end. To his credit he recognised that perhaps I'm not in the best of places at the minute and apologised, saying he needs to be more tolerant. Things are ok now but it does scare me how fragile it all sometimes feels. Maybe those psych appointments are going to be useful after all... I suspect I'm throwing myself into lots of different projects/activities at the minute as a coping strategy. Not necessarily a bad thing but I'm starting to feel a bit worn out!

Nosilab - were you inspired at all? Have you been back to pottery again? I hope you're doing ok...

Hi to everyone else, have a good week ladies, at least the sun is still shining here


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Billybeans - are you still browsing here? I hope you´re OK? As somebody who makes rash decisions I just wanted to check you were taking your time in deciding what to do next. Don´t rush yourself, and let the fog clear first. It sounded like you needed a little tlc when you posted before so I hope you´ve taken some time out just for you   

JBT - good for you on your walking. I have an obligation to walk the dog which is a good thing otherwise I´d never get my butt of the sofa. Todays walk was great. Its really foggy and a holiday today so nobody was out in the woods at all and it was lovely. I sometimes like not being able to see much because it means you hear more   

Jen - Pooch made me look a complete plonker. I delivered him to the vets stressing about his 3-legged walking and telling them how sad he was with his pain. I collected him later only to be told he ran round like a loony on all 4 legs with them and there is nothing wrong with him ............. the little devil   

 Noilab and Janie


Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies

Kat, your pooch update made me laugh!  They're little monkeys sometimes aren't they!  Glad he seems to be on the mend now though    So pleased you had a lovely time in Germany with your friends but sad to hear you're feeling a bit fragile now. Take things easy xx

Jen, I'm doing ok thank you.  I've been back to pottery, and really enjoyed it again.  So mojo must be there and hopefully back on track soon    I'm so sorry to hear about your fall out with DH, it's been a really emotional time for you both, so I guess thoughts and feelings are understandably a bit topsy turvy at the moment.  Hope you've managed to patch things up since the apology? xx

JBT, well done on the walk!    Keep it up xx

Billybeans, hello and welcome.  Sadly I don't think have any wise words to share either.  As Kat says, try not to rush into anything and I'm sure you'll know when the time is right and you'll know which path you feel comfortable taking  

Thinking of you Janie, hope you're doing ok xx

Hello to all the lovely ladies of this thread and for anyone browsing  

xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

A quick pop in before the weekend, hello to all you lovely ladies 

Kat - I did chuckle about Pooch, what little tinker! How are you both doing today?

JBT - how are you doing? It can be hard to get out of that feeling of lethargy and keep the motivation going but I hope you've been able to get out walking again perhaps? Or baking? I know it can be hard to do these things when it doesn't feel like your heart is in it but sometimes it's only through doing that you actually start to *feel *like doing. That probably made more sense in my head, I know I often don't want to do something, such as play tennis, but once I'm playing I find the enjoyment comes back. I'll stop waffling now...

Nosilab - good for you on the pottery front  What did you make this time?

Not much to report from here, me and HB seem to be back on track though I'm back to feeling saddened by the lack of intimacy we have. Saddened but also relieved, which makes me even more sad! He seems keen for us to have another IVF cycle which I can't quite get my head round, I really thought he'd say that was it, no more. Why aren't I jumping for joy?

Anyway, we have his sister and BIL coming for the weekend (they're over visiting from the States). I'm not a huge fan of the BIL so it could be a bit of a challenge. They're big drinkers so I'm anticipating a big night out on Saturday - anticipating but not really looking forward to...

Jen xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Back for a 'pity me' post.

My oldest friend has gone in for a planned caesarean today and I have to admit I'm really struggling with it all (in fact I've just heard she's had a little boy and they are both well).

I hate that this is bringing out the hateful, bitter side of me. I saw her a few weeks ago - I went to visit my family whilst I was still in the midst of having repeat blood tests to find out what was happening after the FET. I'd emailed her beforehand, saying I was sorry for not having visited before then (they'd recently moved back to the UK from Egypt, though I had seen her over Christmas). I kept it brief but explained that we'd had another cycle and that it looked like it had failed again, and that I might be a bit fragile. She never responded to the email and although I know she was busy (they'd recently moved back to the UK from Egypt), the constant updates on ******** suggest she did have time to reply if she wanted to. The visit to her was okay, though I did find it hard to enthuse over all the outfits she'd bought, or listen to her recounting the appointments/scans she'd had.

I know how I feel isn't her problem, I know that how I feel isn't fair on her, but at the same time I can't help feeling a bit let down. We've known each other for 39 years and have seen each other through some tough times. I've tried to cope with this the best I can, I've let her know I'm happy for her but I have told her I find it hard, but that it's not her fault, just that it's a sad situation for us to be in.

Another friend of ours is also facing IF, she's had one round of IVF and several of IUI but she seems to cope with it so much better than I can. She has such a positive outlook and she's genuinely excited about this birth, whereas I just want to find a corner to cry in. I feel like such a [email protected] friend for not being able to adopt the same attitude. I have no idea how to handle this, I'll be expected to visit before too long (they live 3 hours away so at least I can put it off for a little while) and having already tried to explain how I feel and that being ignored I'm not sure it's worth being honest again. I feel angry and hurt that I'll be expected to go and put a smile on my face and hide the fact it's breaking my heart. I feel even more isolated by the fact the one friend who might have understood how I feel handles it so differently.

Please ladies, words of wisdom/advice would be much appreciated right now.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - firstly     . Struggling with it doesn´t mean that you aren´t relieved to hear that mother and son are doing well, its just mixed up in so many other emotions and it makes it hard to work out what on earth is going on. And secondly, stop comparing yourself to your other friend. Maybe her excitement is her desperate attempt to hide how she feels deep down. Or its possible she is feeling OK about it all, she is at a very different place at the moment. One failed IVF hurts like crazy but at the same time its easier to cope with because you are still full of so much hope. Sadly you´ve moved to the next stage where there is less hope up for grabs which makes happy news so much more painful. Or perhaps she is too ashamed of her own feelings to confess how hard she is finding it too? Have you told her how hard it is for you? Maybe she is having a similar conversation with someone else right now about how exhausting it is putting on her fake brave face. We can all do it when we have to, and in fact you said in your post you´ll be expected to do just that soon enough and I bet you do just as good a job as your friend

People get so caught up in their own lives sometimes that they just don´t spare thoughts for others and some people are so caught up in ******** that they don´t have time for personal interaction any longer. I´m sure ******** is great but I´m also sure it makes people lazy and makes them less able to empathise with friends in need. Having said that, I completely understand how you feel let down and I know I would be exactly the same. I´m sorry you feel so hurt and so isolated    Can you send the congratulations text or card or something and then let your heart heal a little before making proper contact again. She´ll be out of action for a while anyway after her caesarean which gives you even more breathing space.

And one final thing; stop beating yourself up over completely normal feelings. You´ve just lost your baby so nobody in their right mind would be expecting you to jump for joy at the arrival of someone elses. Don´t underestimate how hard a miscarriage is on your emotions. I´m sure your friend has plenty of others in a better position to coo over her little boy so you save your visit until you are ready for it. Make you #1.

Love Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - I´m glad you found some mojo. All is not lost if you know its in there somewhere   

Poochie is still limping. I think he is sore but was being super brave at the vets so he could come home. He had an xray and one of his pins has moved a slightly but its nothing to worry about. He is a bit of a mummys boy so maybe just has a bit of an ache that means he needs extra cuddles. He is the most pathetic terrier ever. I´ve no idea what he has been up to but he has just come in covered in ants which his has now shaken all over the office   . 

My trip away really was lovely but talking about ´stuff´made me realise that ignoring things isn´t dealing with them. Childlessness doesn´t stop hurting just because you don´t mention it out loud. Vocalising things just made me think thats all. What do I do with my frostie being one big issue taking a lot of energy at the moment? Why did we withdraw from adoption being the issue I´m beating myself up over. And we talked about what its like on a secure unit which is something I´ve never talked about to anyone (DH and my closest friends here visited me so there is no need to describe it to them) and its brought back a few memories. And I´m also feeling isolated and lonely. There are about 20 houses on our part of the street. There are a couple of houses with teenagers, another household who are grandparents and then there were 2 of us without children and all of the others have small children so street parties are always something we avoid. Anyway, I always at least felt some silent solidarity with the other childless couple but now she has a huge growing bump and I feel so betrayed. Our house looks down on them so I can´t fail to see all the new baby purchases and is hard. Its much harder than I expected, and its maybe another reason why I´m thinking a lot about my embryo again. I thought I was over all this nonsense. And get this for a rash decision and an attempt to show the world being childless doesn´t hurt, my friend is due#2 and her DH is away for a week when the baby will be just 3 weeks old and she has asked if I´ll fly up and stay because she is nervous being on her own with a toddler, a 3 week old baby, a dog and a 6 month old puppy. She is lovely and would completely understand if I´d said I couldn´t help. Guess what I said though ....... a big ´yes of course I´ll come up´ .......... seriously what was I thinking     . Oh and I´m babysitting for another friend tonight on the off chance I hadn´t tortured myself enough already  

Happy weekends everyone. DH is home for a full 2 days so hopefully we´ll do some bonding   
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Afternoon ladies

I have stayed away as I am still in "a place" but after seeing Jen and Kat's posts I had to comment.

Jen big big hugs to you, don't beat yourself up please it is only natural to have the feelings you are having. Perhaps after your friend read your message she just truly didn't know what to say! She is probably also struggling with how to comfort you, she probably doesn't want to make you feel worse and by staying away she is playing it "safe". I have stayed away from friends who have had babies, I have isolated myself on many occasions that now I am lonely I am alone and without you ladies I would probably be in total depression. Jen take your time be kind to yourself. Kat is right when she says your friend who is going through IF may also seem like she is handling it "ok" but perhaps can't bring herself to face the reality and show her true feelings. I am sure many of us in the beginning never showed the impact because we thought awww "it'll happen" we'll get pregnant and have a happy little family!" And then years pass and realize it's not that easy. If you can and if you feel like you want to reach out to her maybe she will be relieved that she can show her true feelings. If not and she stills seems ok with it then at least she knows she can go to you if things get too much for her and you both will have a support system. I hope I have made sense and at least know we are here for you.

I wonder any of you have support systems back where you live? I really wish I had one here, I really need some face to face time with someone and I truly can't afford a councellor. You guys are great and have helped me tremendously but sometimes we just need someone. 

Now as for you miss Kat I am so very proud of you! You are truly my inspiration I have said it before and I will say it again, I hope I will reach where you are soon. I think you will do really well with your friend and her kids along with the babysitting tonight. I raise my hat to you I could never do it not now and I am not sure if ever      Kat I am sure it must be difficult to watch your only childless neighbour become a neighbour with child. Life can be cruel sometimes but you are stronger than you take credit for. Enjoy having your husband around for the 2 days try to bond and have a little fun. 

As for me all I can say is I truly feel alone. I wonder am I too old to make new friends at 40? Have a great weekend. It's Mother's Day here on Sunday and I will be working so I will see all the mothers and their children and wish it were me. DH will go out with his mother and I will wish mine was around. At least I won't have to hang with the in-laws.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Kat - thank you so much for saying everything that I needed to hear. You are so right on so many levels and hearing it just stopped the spiralling panic I was feeling.

I contacted my friend (who is having IF treatment) and was honest about how I was feeling. We go back a long way so I was fairly sure she'd be honest with me too. I'm relieved I did, she admitted to having very mixed emotions too and has suggested visiting together in a few weeks (she lives in France so logistics give us both a bit more breathing space). I also recognise that she is in a different place to us, they have decided they will adopt if IVF doesn't work, and with one IVF cycle under their belt will give it a few more tries before they go down that route. I feel like a bit of weight has lifted and feel a little bit proud that for once I did what I needed to do rather than what I thought I had to. I came home and had a bit of a cry and feel calmer for it. Thank you again lovely lady  

Now, is there any chance you apply that same compassion and wisdom to yourself? Watching your neighbour's bump grow and all the baby things appear is a really cruel reminder of what you can't have. Of course that's going to stir up difficult emotions and it's human to feel resentment over something that causes you pain. I watch my own neighbours like a hawk - like you I'm surrounded by families who either have children or are the next generation. It's just us and our next door neighbours (who are a couple of years younger than us). There are times when I find myself resenting her and she's not even pregnant yet (and for all I know has no intention of having children) so I reckon I beat you on the crazy stakes there. 

As for withdrawing form the adoption process - did you really have a choice? It can't have been an easy decision but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right one for you. I had to take a year off from tx because I wasn't in a place where I could cope with it. There are times I give myself a hard time for those lost opportunities, but I know in my heart it was the right thing to do. I know I no longer have the emotional strength to go through the adoption process (and suspect I wouldn't pass the criteria anyway) and in some ways it's a relief that Andrew made the decision for us. Don't be hard on yourself for not being able to go through with it, there is a limit to what any of us can deal with and you had already faced so much by then.

Finally - don't be afraid to say no sometimes. I recently talked to a good friend about how guilty I felt when I declined invites to child-orientated events. She told me that she would be so upset if she thought I would put myself through that just to be polite, or to 'do the right thing'.  She's right, why on earth would we torture ourselves in that way? I'm learning to say no and somehow that makes it easier to be around chidren when I then choose to. Spending a week with a baby and toddler is a big ask Kat (and I don't mean that as a criticism of your friend, more that it's a big ask you're placing on yourself). Do you know whether there is someone else who could help instead? Trust your instincts on it if you think it would be too much (and I have no doubts at all that it would be for me) and accept that your friend would never want to put you in a position that would hurt you. 

I hope some of that helps, and I hope you and DH have a lovely weekend together. Be gentle with yourself, and get some of those Poochie cuddles (I have to admit, I'm falling in love with your dog from afar!!)

Jen xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey JBT - I posted before I read your reply.

Thank you for coming on and replying to me despite the fact you're struggling. It shows great strength and compassion. 

It really is awful that you have such a lack of support over there. In terms of IF support I do have access to some, most clinics here have a counsellor attached, and our own GPs are able to refer for counselling as well. There's usually a fairly hefty waiting list but at least those services are there. I don't really know how your healthcare system works but I'm guessing you just simply don't have the same access and are left to fend for yourself   

I've wondered about the making new friends at 40 (almost there..) too. I recently joined a yoga class precisely for that reason, I just feel like I need a new circle of people as my current one is saturated with children. I do think it's possible to make new friends JBT, and maybe it would help a little. Are there any clubs you could join, walking, baking or something completely different? It can't take away what's hurting you, but bringing new things, and people, into your life can bring a different balance and give the sadness a bit less space and time.

Lastly - you do have friends here and although it's not the same as being face to face, we are all here. I think we all have a tendency to withdraw when we're struggling when what we really need is to come and share whatever it is, and let each other in.

Big hugs


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Jen one thing I know for sure is that I have friends here, never will doubt that. Thank you for reassuring me. It's funny it was just this morning DH and I were talking and he says he thinks I should find somewhere to volunteer, yes I said but where? So that is my challenge over the next week or so... i would really like to help young girls who are either in an abusive relationship or who have gotten pregnant at a young age. Thing is I am not sure I can stand to be around that! Will it break me or make me stronger? That is the question.!

Funny thing is I know what will make me come out of this funk, some interaction and to break this boredom. I also know that I miss my family I miss my mom and sister and brother and their families. I was thinking of taking a trip in July but the airfare is outrageous and I have sold my car which means buying a new one, which means car payments   I know it is a necessary evil but still a bit daunting. 

I just chatted with my bff on ******** so i feel good for now. I have a Tapas party to go to later not with the crowd I would like to be with but still an evening out. My boss is having it and she invited me, then DH is taking some overseas guests out after (guys move)   

Yes out healthcare system is pretty much every man for himself especially with ivf. It is a big taboo subject. And because of the cost it is very restrictive, so there may be many cases but some of the women are probably unaware of the IF issues due to lack of education or they just cannot afford to see the specialists much less the tx. It's a vicious cycle, we are years behind in terms of support and counselling. Technology is great, research is great, the few doctors that specialize are great but the human factor just not there.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ok, toddler asleep and 7 year old in bed too although sounds like is singing. Its tested my norwegian to the full i can tell you!

Jen - i'm so glad you spoke to your friend and safety in numbers sounds like a great idea for both of you. Not only have you got excuses to delay your trip until you are both ready, but you can both go out for cake or wine after as a reward for having got through it all. You'll either shed a tear together over how sad it makes you both feel, or a giggle over how you both built it up into a massive drama and actually it was ok. I hope it's the later but at least if its the first, you can share with your friend. 

JBT - I'm with Jen on the making friends thing. It's definitely possible at 40 but I think it takes more effort. Joining groups is one option but depending on where you are taking your walks, if you do it at the same time, and a time when others are likely doing the same, you'll probably bump into the same people and then you just bravely start saying hello and it'll just go on from there. I am as shy as they come so I realise its not as easy as that but sometimes you have to get out of your comfort zone in order to change things for the better. I have professional support here but its not because of IF. I'm not sure there is health service support here for IF and wasn't offered counselling until i moved to a private clinic. There is a FF type website here but its nowhere near as active because our population is so small. In real life i do talk to others i have met through here although my most open chats are via messaging and not on forums. Try voluntering And if its not good for you then stop. There is obviously something that made you want to help youngsters so it might be really good for you. I challenge you to spend sone time in the next week just finding out how to go about it. And if you just wanted a chat with one of us but didn't want it to be public then just drop one of us a message. My inbox is always open as i'm sure everyone elses is too. Don't get lonely when we are all here.

Jen - people do tend to fall in love with my boy very easily. He us very charming or very cute depending on what he wants! We are going to Australia for a month next year and i can hear my Mum getting all twitchy on the phone hoping i'll ask her to look after him again. And i'm sure my inlaws only skype to talk to him not us lol.

Thanks for you kind words both of you. I'm not feeling very compassionate towards myself at the moment but we'll see tomorrow ............

Ok, i had better go and find out why i can hear lightsaber (sp?) noises coming from the bedroom. Bsnysitting was actually fun. They are both such gorgeous boys. Ok, hearing footsteps now so time to go.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi girls. I'm just popping on to say a quick hello. I'm away for a few days with dh's family in france. Coping. Just. I only have my mobile and I find it hard to get any kind of flow going but I just wanted to say that I'm thinking about you all. Jen...that you're even contemplating visiting your friend just now given everything you have been through is simply amazing. Please don't beat yourself up any more about this. I keep texting and deleting messages to you all but it's all so bloody inadequate. Kat, jbt, nosilab,  am thinking of you all so much and I'll have a proper catch up over next few days. 
Had a bike ride today with dh. Should have been great but we ended up in a real touristy area which was full of families with baby bike trailers all living the life I can't have. Dh was oblivious to the whole thing but got me churning it all over again. Can't bear doing this on phone so will sign off but just wanted to say hello and it's just circumstance that's keeping me away just now. Hugs to you all.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie   All those other tourists are living a different life to you but not necessarily a better life. I´m sorry you found it so hard to face though and I hope the rest of your holiday is pain free   


I was thinking last night. We all paint this picture in our heads that if we could be mothers then everything would be fine and we´d live happily ever after. Is that really the case? Would having a baby really complete our lives? Change our lives for sure, but complete us and make us happy? Well I´m not so sure its the instant cure to our sadness. I´m guess I´m only speaking from my own life and I know deep down that it´ll not fix my sadness at all. The whole point of our lives is that we find happiness. When you think about it, isn´t it almost a bit sad that some people only find happiness through their children? Haven´t they maybe failed themselves if the only way they can be happy is through someone else? Those kids leave home one day and leave their parents bereft until the day they provide grandchildren and the cycle begins all over again. Its just a thought    And no doubt I´m actually trying to justify my own pathetic and insignificant place in the world. 


Now all we need to do is find happiness  ........................


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies

Kat I understand what you are saying about finding happiness through people, but I believe and this is only me, that if i do have a child I will be happier. BUT if I don't have I won't allow it to make me UNhappy, if that makes sense. What is important is that you are happy with yourself first, and most of the times I am, then I find happiness with being with my husband and immediate family. I think having a child for me will make me a complete person take what society thinks out of it, maybe because I have always wanted kids always wanted a family for my own. Now I think it would be different if I had an indifferent view of having kids then my outlook would change. I don't know if I am making sense. 

We can all rationalize in our own way how we feel about not being able to conceive and your trying to justify it is normal. I do it too, I always say maybe if I had been a great stepmom in the eyes others I would be blessed with kids! I have beat myself up for years about that! I have also tried to convince myself like you that another human being will not make me happy, I have to make me happy. The truth is we will always try to justify this horrible IF issue that's probably our mechanism to get through it all.

Right now I think having a new job and more money will make me happy and then having a baby will make me even more happy. Who knows? I do know that I am going crazy trying to figure out how not to hate myself and continue to love me even with all the failures and disappointments. I used to be so outgoing and have tons of friends I would hang out with. I still have tons of friends but I don't hang out with them anymore, mostly because majority of them are men and they are married with kids. Now I am friends with the wives but I now don't have that much to offer I have no kids and what they do as a group involves kid activities   

Anyway enough of me cause I will go off on a tangent and it will all not start to make sense. I have to get out of the house today, husband is at work and my only friend that i hang out with is busy with her kids   So I am going to go window shopping  

I will check in when I get back, oh have to go call my cousin in England now before it gets too late.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies,

Just popping in to say hello.  I've taken a bit of a back step recently but I'm not really sure why?    I don't seem to have very much mental energy to post at the mo - don't know what's happened to me.  A bit like Janie I keep writing and deleting messages, unsure of what to write.

Jen, my heart went out to you when I read your post about your friend.  I remember chatting to you before about your friend and her moving back etc.  We were in very similar situations re our bf's pregnancies/babies.  Reading your post was almost like a mirror image of my mind and the way I've felt about my friends baby being born - almost word for word.  Kat's post in response to yours was great, so I'm glad it gave you encouragement to call your friend with IF to have an honest and open chat with her.  Sounds like the perfect plan to visit together - safety in numbers as they say  

Kat, I'm in awe of you for baby sitting!  And even more so with you offering to go and stay with your friend with young children - really don't think I could have done it.  It really makes me think I need to get my act together and not keep hiding away and burying my head in the sand.  But I just don't feel strong enough yet.

Janie, it's so hard not to see others lives through rose tinted glasses isn't it, and only see that they 'have it all' and have 'the perfect happy family life'.  The reality is probably often far from that, but we only see what our broken hearts want to show us.

Re the being 'happily ever after' if we have children, this is something I think about all the time.  Sometimes I'm not convinced having a baby will make me happy, sometimes I think it will just cause probs between me and DH - the lack of sleep, the total change of lifestyle, money worries, disagreements on parenting etc etc.  Then other days I feel grief stricken again about being childless - my head is all over the place at the mo    So Kat, as you say, I'm not so sure that having a baby would be the cure to my sadness, who knows?!  I keep seeing negatives whilst out and about - this week I saw a stroppy teenager walking along the road with her mum shouting at her "stop it!!  Leave me alone!!" and I thought to myself "do I really want that when I'm 55?!"  Plus by that time my DH would be mid 60's, do I really want to put him through all that when he doesn't even want this in the first place!  Oh I don't know, I'm so confused.

JBT, hope you enjoyed the window shopping?

Btw, re neighbours - I've alway got my beady eye on our 'young neighbours' and wondering how long it'll be before she's showing off a baby bump!  IF has certainly sent me a bit crazy I think  

Well  think I've just about run out of brain power again, so will sign off now before I waffle on any longer!

Hugs to all xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - I find I take a step back from posting when I just can´t make sense of how I feel and I´m not even sure what I want to feel. And I think sometimes the harder we try to work out how we feel and why we don´t want to do things, the more bogged down and confused we get. Maybe you don´t need to know whats happened to you and perhaps you just have to ride it out for a while. Everyone is allowed to feel empty and apathetic for a while, its only an issue if it goes on too long   . And one small point, your DH doesn´t actually not want a baby, he just knows you could be happy together without and thats different to not wanting it. There is no way he´d go for tx if he didn´t want a child, the risks are way to high for that. There is no right or wrong decision, which ever decision you make will be the right one I promise you.

JBT - If it was as simple as IF being some kind of punishment for past misdemeanours (like not being the great stepmum in the eyes of others) then I wouldn´t even be entitled to my fabulous husband and my lovely house I can assure you. It doesn´t work like like and you just got unlucky thats all and nobody has bad luck forever. Things will turn around for you I´m sure of it ............... I hope it happens soon for though  Oh and you made perfect sense about kids being what you really want and I do get it completely. I think when family is so far away too then having your own is extra important  

Jen -   Catch up later when DH has gone to the airport and left me in peace again.

Janie -   I hope the sun is still shining and you are coping better today.

 to anyone else browsing, I hope you feel you could post on here if you wanted to 

Thinking about the going to my friends to help out. Friends make sacrifices for each other and support each other in times of need, thats just what we do. I love her dearly (and her toddler is such a dude  ) and she needs my support. Blimey she has been a rock for me in many a crisis over the years. Maybe it will cause heartache for me but at the same time I always survive don´t I. She is worth it for sure. And on the flip side, what if I actually have a ball and love every second of it? And apart form anything else, I´ve not met her puppy yet and she looks adorable  . She is a good friend and she knows it´ll not be easy for me but you know what, I feel really privileged that she even thought to ask me and I´d hate to think she felt she couldn´t ask me for help.

Coffee time, 
Katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi all,

That's exactly how I feel at the moment Kat, just a bit confused about how I feel about everything.  I think I'm twisting myself up in knots a bit and the more I try to figure out what I feel, the more apathetic I feel about everything else.  So this is just a quick post from me to say that I haven't fallen off the edge of the earth, I am still reading every day and am sorry to see that so many of you are struggling at the moment.  I wish I could offer some of the great insight and advice that I read on here regularly from you lovely ladies, but I'm not even really able to sort my own head out at the moment.

Anyway, that's it really, just to say that I'm still here and I'm thinking of you all.

  waikiki


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, I think what you've said is spot on, thank you (as always) for listening, understanding and giving very wise words.  I'm going to a talk next week on being childless by circumstance.  The talk given by someone who's experienced it and come out the other side - I'm hoping it'll give me some hope and inspiration.

Hi Waikiki, glad to see you're still out there  

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hooray, you´re still reading Waikiki  I was a bit nervous about bothering you because I had in my head that you were avoiding all thing IF.

Ooh, Nosilab that sounds interesting. I signed up to talks next week on avoiding pollutants in our everyday lives but I´d swap with you any day (especially as mine turns out to be the same old duffers spouting the same old tripe  . Looking forward to hearing about it (and I promise not to tell you anything about mine!).

I wonder if we just waste too much energy on trying to work out how we feel about it all  . I know we all put lots of energy into thinking about how life would be without children and try to convince ourselves it would be OK, we even start to come to terms with it periodically, and then we get scared and convince ourselves that we really don´t want kids after putting all that effort into preparing mentally for the childfree life so we shouldn´t try tx again just in case it works  . But, if you all got pregnant tomorrow, OK you´d all be shocked more than anything else  , but you´d all also make great mums. Life would change and you´d be great at adapting to it and making the most of the new circumstances and you´d all forget that you ever questioned whether it was the right thing or not. Skeptical Dhs would forget they were ever skeptical because they´ll be busy being fab Dads. I think what I´m trying to say is that if you are sitting on the fence at the moment trying to decide if you should do another tx or not, then maybe thats a sign that you´re not quite ready to stop just yet   . Just throwing that thought out there  . Regretting trying you´ll get over, regretting not trying might be harder to handle.

Well my DH is packed of to the airport for another few days and this time I´m looking forward to the peace. I think I´ve got too much going on in my head right now to be able to deal with the white noise that is Mr Kat.

Wine o´clock, 
Love Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, sometimes reading posts from you is like you're untwisting everything in my mind    I often find myself nodding in total agreement.  I will def let you know how the talk goes, I'm really looking forward to it.  I'll keep you posted.  And I'm thinking that your talk on avoiding pollutants might actually be very interesting?!

Wine o'clock sound bloomin' lovely!  I might partake too!  Although technically I'm supposed to be doing Slimming World again - only to lose a few pounds - but hey, whatever!!  

xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm rubbish at tea and sympathy but I do a great line in annoying pragmatism ;-)


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## Moretolife (May 16, 2010)

Hi everyone, I still read through posts on occasions even though I rarely add anything anymore. Probably because I don't talk about it much these days as I don't feel the need yet I'm still interested in how others are progressing and what gets thrown up. I don't have the energy or concentration to jump in on long threads but the sense of connection and support that exists between those on here is great to see and many a wise word spoken.

What prompted me to post was the recent comments about how to meet new people and build a new more childfree friendly way of life, which often runs through these sort of discussions as ultimately I think its very hard to 'move on' and embrace a different way of life unless you have others who are there and also available to share it with you beyond your partner for those who have one. 

I've been there as I've described on other threads, where I felt incredibly isolated and lost. The double whammy of a debilitating chronic illness bought back on by many IVFs and the difficulty of going through infertility left me with fewer relationships and while I can be around families for a while without it causing me pain now, I just don't enjoy it very much. Our lifestyles, attitudes, experiences and day to day life are just too different to have that much in common and be able to spend time together and while it's great if you enjoy parent's company and time with their children, I really strongly believe that for most people childless/childfree its important to have your own tribe so to speak.

To this end I turned a lot of time and energy into how to make this happen. Various groups have thrown up some very good friendships even if I have since left the group as I liked a person but not the thing I joined! That's fine if it's helped you connect with someone who's company you enjoy. Or conversely its been the other way around, I might not see anyone from a group again but I've had a really nice time doing whatever it was! So my initial ideas were 'Spice UK' (didn't work out as was too expensive as I couldn't make a lot of stuff as wasn't well enough and all had to be paid for in advance but had a couple of nice events), IVC, (Inter-varsity club basically a social club originally set up for graduates and professionals but pretty much open to everyone with a group in different regions of country. Made a fab friend through it but my area one has died a death due to lack of activity and the popularity of meetup.com which is free whereas with this there is a yearly subscription fee) Both were majority of people without children and found just through a google search.

Then there is the usual route of clubs and hobbies. Again due to my health I couldn't commit to this and a lot are too physical for me but I know of people who have got a lot from it, given them a confidence boost, a new interest and chance to meet new people. So things like crafts such as jewellery making, walking groups, book clubs, yoga or gym classes or even horse-riding hacks (the former which I personally miss a lot!). These things do tend to be a mixed bag of people with kids as well so whether you mind that risk.. 

The most successful finds were infertility support groups like More to Life which still has some social activity in areas and they are always happy for someone to become a Regional Contact. That way you get the email addresses of those who want to meet up in your area so if there isn't anything happening and you don't mind organising you can get the ball rolling so you get face to face contact and hopefully find 1-2 people you hit it off with. 

The other big success was meetup.com  There are groups for everything under the sun across the country (and in other countries too) and depending on what you opt for may be majority or completely childfree. I joined a social group for childfree/childless women and that was fab. Unfortunately there was issues with the organiser in the end so a very good friend I made through the group and I set up our own! Can really recommend it. I know its not for everyone to want to do that, particularly if you're emotionally in a very bad place right now but it could be the solution if there is nothing in your area as you will be amazed at the amount of people who want the same thing. We kept it as women only, even though I would like to meet couples, simply as it works so successfully that way. We've done it inclusively for those childless by circumstance and those who decided not to have kids as for us its about building a social network of available people to get to know and enjoy life with but everyone can set their own criteria. 

To give you an idea of how much people, well women, can't talk for men as sadly there isn't an equivalent group for them yet, want something like this - in our first 6 weeks we have nearly a 100 members with 20 social events planned and the majority fully booked! Others are out there wanting the same as you, its finding a way to bring yourselves together. Its been a really fantastic positive experience and is helping me enjoy the positives that I've always known are there about not having children which has been a big step (in the many many steps) in rebuilding my life post treatment. I'm fortunate to do it with such a great friend as I'm often not well enough to attend but she is always there and without that it wouldn't be possible so maybe get an ally on build to help you with it if health or time or confidence is an issue. Or you can set it up and as get to know a few people there may be others wanting to take on an organiser role with you.

It isn't easy trying these things and some can leave you feeling quite disillusioned or a bit hopeless and down for a while but if you're able to pick yourself up and persevere I can promise there are many more people out there who want to know you who are in travelling distance its a question of finding the means to connect. You're not going to like everyone but even a few precious friendships of those who get you and are there to go out with or meet and talk to are well worth the effort. 

So that's my two cents  I get that not everyone is in the same position to try do these things (for me its my health rather than my emotions or willingness that limits me) but if I convince just one person to give it a try then I'll be happy ;0) 

Its not a cure-all, but its a good start or at least it was for me so thought I'd share my thoughts with you (two cents might be a bit more than they're worth but there you go  )

MTL x


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Worth way more than 2 cents mtl I can assure you


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Some really interesting and insightful posts, as always...

MTL - thank you for posting that. I sometimes find it hard to motivate to make the changes that I know will help but reading of other people's experience is really helpful. I actually joined meetup.com a while ago. I've only been to one event, yoga, and didn't actually speak to anyone from the meet.up group! (It was an open event so the majority of people there were independent of meetup, I wasn't just being rude!).It was a start, I enjoy the yoga and got chatting to another lady there last week. For me it's definitely a confidence thing but sometimes we need to step out of our comfort zones in order to build that confidence. Maybe one day I'll be the one to establish a childfree group here (I haven't been able to find any existing ones). I do think having other child-free friends would be helpful, though I'm also learning to find compromises that allow me to be around those friends that do have kids.

One thing that kind of stood out for me from some of the recent posts here is we all seem to be trying to get used to the idea of a childless existence as if it's something that will happen in the future, yet isn't that the life we are all living anyway? It might not be all we want it to be, we may wish for it to change, but that is our reality right now. The fact that we can do it now means we can continue to do so. We already have the tools to cope because we've had to develop them already. Yes, we may still grieve what we might not have but the only thing that will really change is a final acceptance that it will never be. In the meantime we can continue to build a different life, start new hobbies or invest more fully in the ones we have. 

I'm not meaning that to sound negative, more that thinking about it in that way has perhaps lessened the fear a little for me, at least for today. All the things I am doing now, such as counselling or joining meetup, are just building on the foundations I already have in place. I haven't let go of the hope that we may still yet become parents, but if we don't then life will continue pretty much as it is now and if I can cope with the here and now, I can cope with the next month, the next year, the next decade. (And yes, the hope I have is still confused and tainted by all those fears we seem to share, but as Kat rightly points out they would become so much less significant if it did actually happen).

We all have our ups and downs, our days where we can't figure out what we feel or where the apathy saps us, but we also all pick ourselves up and dig deep for that inner strength that has kept us going throughout everything. We are all living our child-free existences already. Maybe that will change but we might as well make it the best we can in the meantime.

No doubt I'll be back here in a day or two trying to figure out how to accept the fact we might never be parents but for today the thought doesn't terrify me (well, maybe a little  )

And that's my two cents worth for today!

Jen xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Moonshadow_73 said:


> One thing that kind of stood out for me from some of the recent posts here is we all seem to be trying to get used to the idea of a childless existence as if it's something that will happen in the future, yet isn't that the life we are all living anyway? It might not be all we want it to be, we may wish for it to change, but that is our reality right now.


Love this! Jen, I'd never thought about it like that before. I always think about it as something that will happen to me in the future, but you're right, it IS happening to me now and I AM still living and coping (most of the time!). Love the different perspectives that everyone puts on things. When you put it like that it kinda feels less daunting.

MTL, thanks for all the fab info. I'd not heard of meetup.com so Googled it last night - very interesting.

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I guess we are all a bit slow not to have noticed the obvious and in reality have all been doing ok at this living childfree thing. Well spotted Jen xxx

I too did some googling earlier so it seems your inspiring post did the trick mtl. I know you and I don't have the same options JBT but maybe we should just think about joining any random thing just for a change of scenery and contact.

I'm in a very unsafe place tonight so on my way to bed. My whole support team are AWOL and due to drinking too much I can't take any emergency meds either so duvet time is probably my safest option right now so good night all.

Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

How are you doing today Kat? It's good that you recognised that going to bed was a safe option for you, what plans have you got to keep you busy today?

Take good care of your lovely self xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies

Sorry I've been AWOL for quite a while. Things have been up and down with me but I've been reading and thinking about lots of the things that are getting talked about here. I'm just going to scroll back a couple of pages and add my tuppence worth on a few things...



> We all paint this picture in our heads that if we could be mothers then everything would be fine and we´d live happily ever after. Is that really the case? Would having a baby really complete our lives? Change our lives for sure, but complete us and make us happy? Well I´m not so sure its the instant cure to our sadness. I´m guess I´m only speaking from my own life and I know deep down that it´ll not fix my sadness at all. The whole point of our lives is that we find happiness. When you think about it, isn´t it almost a bit sad that some people only find happiness through their children? Haven´t they maybe failed themselves if the only way they can be happy is through someone else? Those kids leave home one day and leave their parents bereft until the day they provide grandchildren and the cycle begins all over again. Its just a thought  And no doubt I´m actually trying to justify my own pathetic and insignificant place in the world.


*Kat *- I totally hear what you are saying and I really think there is something important here. I guess having kids to some degree fills a big gap? I had a semi-breakdown in my twenties. A breakdown is probably a bit too strong but I was definitely bordering on depressed and asking all the big questions .. you know, what's the point of it all etc? Actually I think what I had was a bit of an early mid-life crisis! I've experienced a lot of the same feeling again going through IF. The thought of my future opening out in front of me with no clear landmarks or milestones until retirement has seemed utterly pointless and depressing. I guess if you have kids then maybe you don't have to try to figure it all out. I mean, I guess you barely have time to eat a sandwich let alone worry about existentialism! I keep typing and deleting because I can't quite say what I want to say. Obviously having children can bring great joy (and frustration in equal measure I would think) and I think that maybe it's just more challenging to find that kind of happiness in a childfree life. I suspect it's tied up with finding the meaning in our lives but I just can't quite find the words right now. But I definitely don't think you need to have children to be happy. And I think if you can master being happy without children then you're in a much more solid position!

JBT


> What is important is that you are happy with yourself first, and most of the times I am, then I find happiness with being with my husband and immediate family. I think having a child for me will make me a complete person take what society thinks out of it, maybe because I have always wanted kids always wanted a family for my own. Now I think it would be different if I had an indifferent view of having kids then my outlook would change. I don't know if I am making sense


That made complete sense to me. And I wonder whether I might fit the bill of someone who was more indifferent about having kids? I have never felt broody (and still don't) around other people's children and so maybe I don't quite feel quite the same loss as someone who has always wanted children. I don't know. The pain has been pretty brutal at times nonetheless. But I think for me a lot of what I've felt has been total frustration, anger and resentment that .. yet again.. . this is something that other people get to have so easily. I find it too painful to be around babies so it's clearly not as black and white as I'm painting it here.

Nosilab -


> Sometimes I'm not convinced having a baby will make me happy, sometimes I think it will just cause probs between me and DH - the lack of sleep, the total change of lifestyle, money worries, disagreements on parenting etc etc. Then other days I feel grief stricken again about being childless - my head is all over the place at the mo  So Kat, as you say, I'm not so sure that having a baby would be the cure to my sadness, who knows?! I keep seeing negatives whilst out and about - this week I saw a stroppy teenager walking along the road with her mum shouting at her "stop it!! Leave me alone!!" and I thought to myself "do I really want that when I'm 55?!" Plus by that time my DH would be mid 60's, do I really want to put him through all that when he doesn't even want this in the first place!


I have all these same thoughts and I totally understand why your head would be all over the place because my mine is too. I woke up this morning feeling 'ok' about things but then I watched a wee movie that my friend had sent of her baby and I was back to questioning it all over again. But I do keep questioning our age and continuously doing the maths on what age would be with a teenager. etc etc. I do it constantly. But I wonder whether that doubt has sprung from a position of actually starting to be able to see that a child free life is a pretty viable alternative? I would love to know how you get on at the talk Nosilab. Feed us back any gems.

We're fast approaching decision time again. DH never wants to talk about it. I've been so focused on my 'other' future (applying to uni etc) that I've not had much time to dwell. I don't know, I'm just not sure that I can really see it for us anymore. We weren't actually away on holiday, more a duty call. Took my Dad away to see DH's family. Time with my family always leaves me feeling pretty upset and this time no different. And that's when I get really down and angry about this mythical 'family' concept because I seem to have missed out on the whole shebang.

MTL - thank you so much for your post. I'm going to have a little look at meetup.com to see if there is a group that would suit where I am. I guess I'm one of the lucky few who has quite a lot of childfree friends and I can say that they are a total blessing. It took me quite a while to come to terms with the change in my relationship with my friends who have kids but I'm getting there. I'm struggling with the babies but I'm hopeful things will work out in time. But I'm realistic and these friends are now going off on different journeys with different concerns and challenges. I guess I just don't find it that interesting... plus it brings up emotions that I guess I haven't really dealt with yet. But where some of those friendships are maybe changing, others are developing. Someone mentioned 'tribes' and that made sense. I need more of my own tribe.

Jen - you sound pretty philosophical. I hope you're doing ok  . Interesting that your DH was keen for another round. Perhaps that is good evidence for us all that men maybe need things to be a bit more tangible to be able to really emotionally engage with it. I guess it's still very early days for you guys.

Kat - I really hope you're doing OK today. Thinking about you.  

I've still got tonnes more I wanted to talk about with you ladies but don't want to turn this into a mega post so will sign off for now.

Janie xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

One last thing... this concept of 'pronatalism' that I've read about in some of the IF books I waded through a while ago... it's so true! I've been really tuned into how the media talks about having children and it's relentless. In the airport yesterday I picked up a couple of women's magazines to pass some time whilst we waited for our flight. Each of them had interviews with supposedly strong career woman but the headline story for each was that being a mother was the best and hardest and most important job they did. Women can get the nobel prize but it's motherhood which always defines them. On the radio today there was a story about the most magical noise in the world being a baby crying (what?!). My friend was in an accident the other day. The newspaper clipping mentioned 'mother escapes...'. Every single time I read this type of stuff I feel just a little bit more worthless. I know deep down it's not the case but I guess it just got me to thinking about how hard it is to be child free in our society and how powerful the underlying message is. The trouble is, if I dare to point out how ludicrous it is I come across as bitter and twisted.


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Wow - so many insightful posts from you ladies that have resonated with thoughts and feelings I have been having recently. I had to copy and paste all of them into a Word document to event start to address all of the points that I want to! (It would be good if we could save drafts of posts as we go don't you think?)

Anyway first and foremost, Kat, I hope that you're doing better today - are your support team back in place for you tonight? I hope so hun.  

Right, I think it's best if I just take a leaf out of Janie's book and put my comments underneath quotes from your original posts.



Nordickat said:


> try to convince ourselves it would be OK, we even start to come to terms with it periodically, and then we get scared and convince ourselves that we really don´t want kids after putting all that effort into preparing mentally for the childfree life so we shouldn´t try tx again just in case it works


Early on in my IF I felt so outraged that this had happened to me, because if I'm really honest I thought that I'd make a really good mum. I have always, always wanted children and just could not reconcile myself with the fact that I didn't have them - even now after 8 years I still have moments where I've forgotten about IF for a minute, then I remember it again and think, hang on, this can't be true I must be dreaming, there is no way that I don't have children yet!

But recently I have found myself thinking that maybe if it happened for me now I wouldn't be such a good mum. I know that the reality of children is not always sunshine and rainbows, and I worry that I would resent the difficulty of bringing up children after the fight that I would have been through to get them. DH and I have discussed this and I think to an extent he feels the same. I think I've said before that I wanted kids 8 years ago and I still find myself wondering if I really do still want them now as I am a such a different person to who I was when I started this journey.



Moonshadow_73 said:


> One thing that kind of stood out for me from some of the recent posts here is we all seem to be trying to get used to the idea of a childless existence as if it's something that will happen in the future, yet isn't that the life we are all living anyway?


This is something that I too realised some time ago Jen, and it helped me dispel the fears as to what I would do if I ever reached the end of the tx road without kids. I remember speaking to a counsellor after my first failed IVF and she asked me what would happen if I never had kids and I honestly thought that I would rather not be in the world than be here childless. But as the years have gone on without children, I have realised that I am actually already living the childless life that could end up being the reality for the rest of my life. I have survived it - it's true to say that some days have been awful, but I have got through them.

I don't want to keep on just surviving though, I need to take proactive steps to build new friendships as MTL has suggested. I had been putting off joining new groups until I knew for sure that I will definitely be childless for ever, but I realised that doing this is just putting my life on hold and may make it harder for me to move on once I have finished tx.

Funnily enough I was looking at the More To Life and meetup.com websites at the weekend, so now that I have MTL's recommendation I am going to sign up for a few events in my area. I am quite a shy person and don't find it easy to make conversation with people that I have just met, but I know that I really need to push myself to do this.



janie73 said:


> The thought of my future opening out in front of me with no clear landmarks or milestones until retirement has seemed utterly pointless and depressing. I guess if you have kids then maybe you don't have to try to figure it all out. I mean, I guess you barely have time to eat a sandwich let alone worry about existentialism!


DH has had a couple of real lows during this journey where he has questioned the point of it all and has always said to me that if we'd had kids we would have been on a conveyor belt for life without ever having time to stop and think about our lives and whether we were happy. So if we can find some happiness at the end of all this then it will be down to us and us alone, not linked to a child which has to be a stronger foundation for our own sense of worth and purpose. If I'm having a really good day I may even be able to convince myself that we are the fortunate few who ironically by not achieving one very important milestone in life are actually freed up to shape the rest of our lives much more in a way that most others are not.

I also agree that society puts too much value on the role of the mother. In the media people are so often described in terms of their offspring: Mother-of-three, Father-of-two etc. The other one I find difficult to deal with is the 'As a mother&#8230;.' intro which often implies that people without children cannot possibly understand the range of emotions that a parent can. We may not feel the same emotions as parents due to our different experiences, but I think that we understand better than most just how precious a child is. Ths pronatalism doesn't make me feel worthless per se, just angry. But like you I know I'd feel like a bitter, barren loon if I pointed it out to anyone in the 'normal' world.

So that's my two cents worth - you're all fab ladies, and reading your musings helps to keep me sane.

 waikiki


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

*Kat*, how are you today lovely? Hope the comfort of your bed and the safety of your duvet has helped to bring you back to a safer place? 

*Janie*, will def let you all know how the talk goes tomorrow eve. When you say it's almost decision time again, is that to meet a timescale that you've set/agreed on, or your clinic? I know only too well how upsetting and frustrating it is to have a DH who never wants to talk about tx  Very sad to hear that you had an upsetting time with your family. I think I understand that feeling too (if I've interpreted your comment correctly?) 



janie73 said:


> I guess it just got me to thinking about how hard it is to be child free in our society and how powerful the underlying message is. The trouble is, if I dare to point out how ludicrous it is I come across as bitter and twisted.


Really interesting point. I'd not heard of pronatalism before I read your post (obviously had my head stuck too deeply in the sand!!). But I totally see what you're saying, it's so true. And *Waikiki*, I also agree that the media do tend to prefix a story with "mother of two" etc etc, it's all these little subliminal messages that slowly grind us down without us even realising half the time!

On another note, I had advance warning today (from a very good friend) of an impending pregnancy announcement from one of my work colleagues. I don't work closely with this person but we are in the same team (so to speak!) But arrrhhhhh! It just seems relentless at times! They only got married at the end of last year and have apparently only been ttc since Christmas. I was told that the announcement will probably be made at the next team meeting, so I may just have to give my apologies for that meeting so that I don't have to witness the 'bees to the honeypot' scene! 

Anyway, rant over. Think I need my bed now and a good nights sleep.

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey Waikiki!



> If I'm having a really good day I may even be able to convince myself that we are the fortunate few who ironically by not achieving one very important milestone in life are actually freed up to shape the rest of our lives much more in a way that most others are not.


I feel like this occasionally too... on the good days. Actually, one of the defining conversations I had before pulling out of my last treatment was with a friend who put this suggestion to me. It's all too easy to picture the perfect family moments... because by and large that is what we see of other people's lives. And I'm not saying that having children wouldn't be wonderful, I'm sure it is... but it's also hugely committing. I think it struck me that as I would be 40 by the time I had a baby, I would essentially be spending the rest of my years before retirement bringing up that child. There wouldn't be a huge amount of time left for my dreams. Instead I have the freedom to do what I want with my life... and as I said earlier I think that can be an utterly terrifying thought and at times I've felt really struggled to find any meaning in life. But as the days and weeks and months go on I'm finding it less scary. And some of the old excitement is coming back. It's still early days but even having glimmers of feeling like this is important and feels worth celebrating. And even if it hasn't been much of a choice, we can at least choose what we do next. I think you have to be at a certain stage of acceptance to find that soothing at all though.

Nosilab.. bees to the honey pot.... oh I know exactly how that feels and what a spot-on description. And isn't that funny... is it maybe possible that it's not even so much the pregnancy that is so hard to handle but the way everybody celebrates in such an over-the-top fashion? I think that's what I find so hard. If it was a different culture and people just said a discrete congratulations, would we find these things so hard I wonder? Anyway, I totally understand the need to give your apologies as I have to do exactly the same thing. 

As for it being decision time, it's just I get my AF again in the next few days. We're really going to struggle to organise another cycle with the clinic if we leave it much longer as I have things I'm committed to.. my sister visiting from NZ etc. (because we're doing it overseas if we do it at all) So it feels a bit now or never. It's not of course, but surely if I really knew I wanted to do it I wouldn't still be hesitating. I think it's probably more like I'm OK with my decision that we've had enough but all the messages I get (from the media etc) make me constantly check again whether I'm making a terrible decision.

Actually, something else I've realised is that I'm constantly looking for validation in the decision not to try again... i.e. the decision that I'm going to be happy child free. I search for stories everywhere. I was dying to ask my counsellor last week whether she had children or not. I was thinking about this after the session and wondering why I was so desperate to know. I think it's because she seems like a wonderful intelligent happy content woman and it would make me feel better if she had achieved this being child free!


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies

Been reading and taking it all in, you ladies are really very insightful and we are lucky to be a part of this wonderful group.

Kat honey I hope you are feeling a little better today, I have been thinking about you and I totally agree with you about just finding a group and joining. So I took your challenge and started to look at some organization I would like to possibly offer some of my time to. I have always been interested in working with teenage mothers or abused women, don't ask why and if it doesn't send me to the looney bin it will make me stronger. I am not sure if I am strong enough though as I am still very fragile when it comes to pregnant women and babies  So there is a women's research and outreach centre I could approach they don't actually deal with the teenage pregnancies but women's issues.... I know I don't want a service club so I really do need to find an organization.

Jen, Janie, Nosilab, waikiki you all have made such good points. I too didn't know about pronatalism, so you learn something new every day. Yes the media does sensationalize parenthood!

I am just popping in so I will post more later or tomorrow.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Just dropping in with love for you all. I need some sleep before reading all you posts.
xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all

There does seem to be a recurrent theme here that not having children leaves us with a void and a feeling that our lives lack a degree of purpose. I feel that too, I haven't invested in a career - not because the priority was to have children but because I never felt driven to. I always wanted to maintain a good work-life balance, the irony now being that I am not particularly happy in either at the minute. I want to fill my life with hobbies and exciting new ventures but I can't summon the enthusiasm. In the same way that I question whether I'm too old to start a family, I question whether I'm too old to change careers. I can already hear the indignation from you lovely ladies, and deep down I know that's not true. I guess it's just a scary idea at the minute and I've some way to go before I can see it as an opportunity. Perhaps that will come.

I think what I struggle with is the sense that the last 6/7 years have been dominated by fertility treatment. In that time so many of my friends have had children and their lives have moved in a different direction whereas I feel like I'll be spat out at the end of all this and be stuck where I was 7 years ago, only with less confidence. I haven't used the last 7 years moving in my own direction, whereas the few people I know who have chosen not to have children have embraced that lifestyle. I guess I don't feel like I fit in either camp yet. There's part of me that resents the childless friends (who are mainly DH's friends); they're quite anti-children and are still very much into drinking a lot, going to see bands etc. I don't really want that lifestyle, at least not to the same degree so I don't know where I fit.



waikiki said:


> I don't want to keep on just surviving though, I need to take proactive steps to build new friendships as MTL has suggested. I had been putting off joining new groups until I knew for sure that I will definitely be childless for ever, but I realised that doing this is just putting my life on hold and may make it harder for me to move on once I have finished tx.


So, so true. I almost didn't join the yoga class because we were in the middle of the FET cycle. Then I realised that I could always stop going, or find a yoga group for pregnant ladies if I needed to.

Janie - I always felt that indifference about children too. I never really cooed over other people's and wanted my own in only the vaguest of senses until I married in my early 30's. I sometimes wonder if we hadn't sought treatment whether I would have accepted it more easily. Going through IVF (or any fertility treatment) gives it a focus I hadn't had before, and the build up of hope and crash of disappointment makes you far more invested in it. I sometimes wonder what I filled my time with, and what I thought about, before all this.

As for needing validation - I think that's understandable. Society continually validates those who have children, and by the same token casts a shadow over those that don't. Perhaps we need to look a bit more inwards for that validation, though that is so much harder! I think what makes this harder is that it feels like it's a decision that is forced upon us, that it's all about accepting it as some kind of defeat, rather than an active choice. No-one likes to admit defeat but that's not what this is about. For what it's worth I think it takes a huge amount of courage to start to look at what life could look like without children. What I hear from your posts is a growing sense of feeling that you've had enough of putting yourself through this and that actually, perhaps you can be okay with that. You're allowed to change your mind, or have a few wobbles, but a few months ago would you have been able to think about it in the same way you do now?

Nosilab - I hope the talk was inspiring. I'm eagerly awaiting your report along with everyone else  And I agree about the bees to a honeypot analogy. Since my friend had her baby last week the ** updates have been relentless, as have all the comments and 'likes'. I do wonder how many of those responding are as genuinely excited as they claim to be. I had planned to stay away from ** and do keep hiding some of the newsfeed, but at the same time i think the exposure to it has taken some of the sting out of it.

Anyway, I'm kind of out of time so will sign off for now.

Hi and hugs to all

Jen (whose a little bit proud of herself for finally figuring out how to do the quoting thing!)


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Firstly, thanks for your posts this last week. It's been really good for me to read them tonight, although there was so much to read I've got through half a bottle of wine already ;-)

Secondly, I want to share my pet hate about the public perception if our role in society. If we are not mothers its because we have chosen our careers. Our choices are to have babies or become driven successful career women who make either sacrifices for their children or their work. All of the childless role models are always incredible powerful career women. Clearly if being very driven at work is what makes you feel good then great, but that's just not me. It's kind of like failing twice over if you neither have children or a job as CEO of some top company.

Other than that I agree with pretty much everything you have all said. I'm currently balanced on some precipice with black silence on one side and bright white noise on the other which is very scary and completely exhausting trying to keep balanced. I am safe though and DH is home to stop my falling either way and I'll be bouncing back very soon.

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi ladies

Well, explaining last night is a tad tricky!  The easy and straightforward answer is that it was great!  So many women all together in one room (or pub!) all understanding one another with shared experiences and emotions.  A wee bit bizarre and surreal, but very reassuring and comforting.  Jody (the founder) is a true inspiration, I welled up several times listening to her story.  All in all it was a fab evening, but I can't deny there were a fair few tears along the way which made it an emotionally draining time.  Not sure why really but I then had a really disturbed nights sleep - kept waking up thinking about it all.  It obviously stirred up more emotions than I realised.  But trying to explain that to you all or get it straight in my own head is just about impossible!  Apart from it being a fab night, another plus side is now knowing there's a local 'meet up' group.

Janie, I see what you mean re the timescale, I forgot your tx would be abroad so that does add I a little extra to think about.  How are you feeling generally?  Do you think you'll do one last tx?

Jen, you should be very proud of yourself  

JBT, sounds like you've got a good plan there, and something that you'd be really interested in.  Good luck with it all.

Kat  

Waikiki and MTL, hope you're both ok?

Going to sign off for now as feeling really tired and drained.  Massive hugs to all  

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Jen - I can really empathise with a lot of what you said in that post. Something I really struggled with during treatment was my vision of what my life would be like childfree. I couldn't find many role models that I could identify with. The women all seemed to not want children who would mess up their house...or were totally focused on their careers ... or like you describe, the reason for being childfree seemed to be more about a lifestyle that I was living in my twenties and had moved away from. I remember going away on a watersports week.. we had by chance booked a childfree week (totally by coincedence). Anyway, the women there just seemed to be so anti-children in a way I just couldn't identify with. As I've already said, I've never really been too emotional about other people's children but I do think that in general, kids are pretty cool. I just felt that if I didn't have children then the world would view me the way that I view these women. And that couldn't be further from the truth. But over the last couple of years I've realised there are loads of really amazing women who don't have children yet are nurturing and fulfilled. They're obviously in the minority but they are definitely out there.  And so now I really seek these women out and I have a much clearer vision of the 'type' of childfree woman I want to be. I'm not ready to surround myself with other people's children yet but I can see that in time that will come.  

I guess the idea of role models relates to the point I was trying to make about validation. Your point about inner validation is something I've thought a lot about today. And you're right, I think that is so much harder. 

As for careers, I absolutely hated my job at the point that I found out we would need treatment. We were TTC for 2 years before that and the only reason I stayed in the job was for the maternity leave. Ha bleedin' ha! 5 years later and I'm still there. My 'masterplan' was that I would get pregnant and then work part-time for a couple of years until the child was school age and then I'd retrain around about now! And funnily enough I've watched my friend manage to achieve just this. She started a masters (similar to the one I'll be applying to do) this year - her twins are at school now. Me? Not quite so! I guess I have been thinking about changing my career for absolutely ages and so to be honest this year I just finally decided to 'pick something' and just throw myself into it. And it's worked because I'm actually really excited about it and it's definitely helping me to be able to 'let go' of IVF. It's not as if I've found my 'calling' or anything but I can see something new and interesting that will occupy my time for a good few years. We'll be broke but I really couldn't care less right now. 
You're right, I am starting to see a life for myself beyond IF but it's really only come about in the last couple of months. When I started this thread I was just having the first teeny tiny glimmers of hope after several months of stress, visiting overseas clinics and absolute despair. But in the main, I'm definitely doing 'OK' at the moment. But I know that if we do go ahead with this last round of treatment then it will send me into a tailspin because it will no doubt unearth all the feelings that are no doubt lingering somewhere beneath the surface. 

So I guess my point is that it's still extremely early days for you given everything you have been through recently. But I know you know that. So really I'm just sending


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - hang in there. I'm glad DH is home and providing the stabilisers.  

I couldn't agree more with your pet hate. I also hate the media perception that most women who are having treatment are doing it so because they were ball-busting career women who realised too late that career was pointless and motherhood is the only path to fulfillment. There is little in the way of middle ground. 

And just in case I'm coming across wrong (hopefully not though!), I couldn't get two hoots about my 'career' as such! I just want to find a way to be happy and not be questioning the point of it all too often at least!


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - would love to hear more about the evening as and when you have time (and have had some sleep possibly!). I did watch the wee vid you mailed and Jodie came across really well on that. Feed us any snippets as and when you remember them.

I honestly don't know whether we will have this one last round. I'm going to pin DH down to 'do talking' tomorrow night. I kind of wish we hadn't got into the whole overseas treatment thing now because I simply can't face the hassle of it all. But I have bought all the meds already. Plus, I really liked the clinic and I have way more faith in them than my UK hospital. But the fact that I can't be bothered to travel anymore feels like yet another indicator that my hearts not in it anymore. So I don't know. I think I have maybe got to the point that I'm actually OK with not having kids but the 'message' out there is so strong that I am constantly questioning it. And I mean constantly. What about you? I think you and DH had agreed to use your frosties for one last round... but I've maybe had a bit of a sense that you are also starting to question whether that is the path you want to take? Maybe not. I hope you're doing OK though. Sounds like last night was helpful. Do you think you will meet any of the other ladies again?

Hugs to you all
xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't care about my career either, not with respect to world domination and big bucks anyway. I want to be good at what I do because that would make me happy and like you Janie, that's all I really want. The pressure on me and the expectation people have that I'll be fab just doesn't make me happy anymore. I think I'm tired of being defined by what I don't have or what I do for a living. I want to be defined as just Kat. I'm worth that, we all are. Maybe it's just my skewed perspective, but I don't think our DHs are defined in the same way. Someone please tell me if that's my own woe is me type perception because I'd like to know if I'm wrong on that one.

I saw a few comments about the presentation nosilab and it was clearly a hit. I also wondered if you'd get to join a group and I'm really pleased you have. This might be the start of something really good you know. I can believe it when you say you are exhausted but I hope you are just a little bit excited about what the future might hold now.

Janie - DH is providing stabilizers in the form of cadburys  I love his trips to the uk ;-) And bless him, the wine shop is closed for 4 days now (friday and monday are holidays so why work saturday?!?!) so the queue was massive tonight and he didn't moan at all, and I have pushed him to the limit, way more than any DH deaerves, this last couple of days and he is still loving me. I am a lucky girl 

Right I'm shattered so bedtime and phone off now for 4 days. Enjoy your weekends everyone,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - I suspect that after everything all of us have been through over the last few years, that we are all strong enough to get over not meeting society's expectations. Ok, it'll take time and adjusting our way if thinking of ourselves as inferior is no mean feat but we have already proved how tough we are. Screw conforming to society rules, they were made to ve broken ;-) Good luck with the big talk and i hope you can manage to differentiate between what you want to do and what you feel under pressure to do. Actually differentiate is not the right Word at all and i think i mean i hope that you feel no pressure to do anything and what is right for you becomes clearer. I'm bouncibg off the walls so i hope that makes some sense?!


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Makes perfect sense Kat. xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Ditto to all of the above ladies.  I am lucky that I enjoy my job, but do not see myself as a career woman and would have given it up in a heartbeat for a child.  Kat, I agree that I don't want to be defined by what I do for a living, I just want to be good at what I choose to do, to help rebuild some of the confidence that IF has shattered for me.  Ironically my most career-focused friends have children, but barely paused after they were born before going back to work to climb even higher up the career ladder.  I know I shouldn't be so judgemental of others, but at times I have had to bite my tongue with a couple of friends who only ever want to talk about their latest promotions at work, overseas business trips, conferences etc while their poor children have to compete with their mother's career to get a look in.  Having said that, I don't think that I could have their life now - it's almost as if they feel they have to prove something by excelling in their careers and at motherhood.  I just don't have the energy for that, being happy in my own skin is what I'll aim for.  

Janie, I've been thinking about you mentioning the absence of a child-free role model who you felt was 'like you' and I honestly can't think of one contemporary who I can relate to in that way.  I only have one child-free friend, who never wanted children, and although she has been really supportive, she has admitted that she cannot understand the way that I feel.

There is only one child-free woman who I can relate to because she has had similar experiences to me, although she is much older than me (she is my great aunt), but rather than act as a role model I think she has unwittingly triggered a couple of my very strongly held fears of being childless.  This is not her fault as she is a lovely lady, but as a child I remember being scared of her because she was literally the only childless woman that I knew and I assumed that she didn't have children because she didn't like them.  To my childhood brain, the fact that she was a very popular headmistress who obviously got on with children and was always kind to me didn't dispel this myth.  I'm sure the vibes I give off to children must make them think the same of me, which makes me sad. 

The second thing is now that she is elderly and has health problems she has started relying on my parents a lot because she doesn't have any other family.  Her husband is older than her and his health is also failing and a few months ago my aunt rang my mum one evening out of the blue sounding very upset.  She made my mum promise that when anything happens to my uncle that my mum will make sure that she is looked after.  My mum told me this story quite innocently over the phone and didn't realise anything was amiss until she heard me sobbing - I actually had to point it out to her that I am terrified of being in that situation one day.

Nosila - I'm so glad that you had a good, if exhausting, time last night.  I know that those emotions can be overwhelming and draining when they are finally released, but it has to be better than bottling them up and to let them out in a room full of other women who understand must have helped.  It's great that you have the beginnings of a local meetup group too, I have to confess to being quite jealous, I would love to meet just one person near me who 'gets' my situation.

Right, there have been at least 4 posts since I've been trying to get my thoughts down here, so I'm just going stop with my ramblings for now.

waikiki


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Waikiki - just a really really quick response right now but had to reply. I guess we all feel those fears of old-aged childlessness. If I think too hard about it I can get pretty upset. But, you know, having a child is definitely no guarantee that you would have someone to look after you in old age. And really, is that what we'd want for them? It's just as likely that our children would have been so well-adjusted that they'd have flown the nest to far flung places and only visit from time to time. And we'd be happy for that. Surely it's better that we focus on reaching out through life and meeting other people who might be in the same boat? Who we can turn to when things are tough. I don't think there is an easy answer but I try not to dwell on it too much. So much else is uncertain. And if all else fails we can all just move into a nursing home together and have a whale of a time! 

I don't mean to be flippant because it's a big thing for us all. But maybe it's easy to paint an unrealistic picture of how things would turn out.

Tired now and not making sense. But wanted to send a virtual  . It's amazing how often the people closest to us can often be totally unaware of that what they are saying is the source of so much pain. xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't have a career to care about - I just have a job, a job that I've stayed in because of the maternity leave/pay etc (how many times have we all heard that!).  So I'm really not sure how people view me to be honest, I'm certainly not a high flying career woman, nor am I a mother, so I guess to the outside world I'm just a bit of a 'plodder'  

Kat, you're right, even though it left me mentally exhausted it was also very exciting and well worth going.  Enjoy that Cadburys choc (yum!) and hope you have a fab Bank Hol weekend  

Janie, I guess the reason it's so hard to explain the evening is that the majority of it was Jody describing her life and what got her to where she is now.  She really is a true inspiration and I am in awe of her.  Afterwards we all just sat around drinking, chatting, sharing experiences - and crying of course.  I asked Jody if she still feels the pangs of grief given that she's very happy and comfortable with her life now, i.e. whether certain things still set her off.  She said yes, and that grief never goes away, but she opens up to it now, accepts it and it usually passes very quickly.  By which I assumed she meant maybe a day or so - but no, she meant 2-3 minutes!  We talked a lot about the taboo of IF and that 1 in 5 woman now experience IF, so basically it is up to us to stand up and be strong and tell the world how it really is, not sit back and be ashamed or embarrassed.  I am getting more like that the older I get, I'm not usually embarrassed to tell people the truth now, whereas in the beginning I was.  We talked about social awkwardness "do you have children?" reply "no, we're not able to have children" cue awkwardness from other person, looking down and shuffling feet "oh, I'm sorry to hear that".  We also talked how people feel the need to give you a 'shopping list' of things you might want to try 1) stand on your head after sex 2) have more sex! 3) have IVF 4) "just adopt" etc etc, when in actual fact all we really want is empathy "sh*t, that must be so hard for you?".  We talked about the media, we talked about pronatalism, we talked about all sorts.  I can't say there were any magical solutions or answers that I can pass on out but what I can say is that she is an amazing woman, and it's an amazing thing she's doing - bringing people together and trying to get information out there so it becomes understood.  She has a book due out soon, I think I may invest in a copy    If she's ever in your area giving a talk I'd recommend going along.  Yes I definitely hope to meet up with the group again, there is a meet up at the end of this month.

Really hope your talk with DH goes well tonight.  You're like me re questioning yourself all the time "my hearts obviously not in it, so maybe I don't really want this?".  I guess we all do that.  I do it all the time, but maybe it's just that we're physically and mentally exhausted from it all, it takes a lot of stamina to keep up the momentum.  It's easy in the early days when we're full of hope, but for us tx veterans it can become very wearing, and as with most things, it's inevitable that it's going to lose momentum eventually.  I'm already questioning myself about the next potential tx later this year "do I really want to do it?!".  Yes you're right, DH and I agreed to have all 3 frosties defrosted at the same time, then ask the clinic to just select the best one for transfer.  The plan is to do that later in the summer.

Waikiki, how are you doing?  I'll send you some info re the group thing  

Hi to Jen, JBT and anyone I've missed or anyone browsing  

xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/25/child-free-women-jody-day


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Its an exciting day in my world today! We now have a solar panel on the cabin so i've got my phone charging so I can still keep in touch with the outside world if I want. And as an added bonus today DH fixed the toilet so no more peeing in the woods. It's like living in the civilized world .......... almost.

I just wanted to quickly back up what Jody told you about the grief passing in a couple of minutes now she accepts it. Completely unrelated to IF but the same principle and one of the reasons I have physio-for-loons is to work on this acceptance issue. I've worked hard, had lots if trauma counselling and also lots of here&now/mindfulness type stuff and I've made massive progress. Certain things used to trigger me to completely spiral out on control and it could take days to recover, now when there is the same trigger I can accept it, feel the pain and then let it kind if wash over me. It's the acceptance that feelings can't actually hurt you despite how it feels, so you have to just accept that it happens and go with it. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that. It's not special to Judy, it happens to us all, so if anyone decides not to have more tx then then same thing will happen for all if us, it just takes time.

17th may is the worst day of the year for me usually but you know what, I've had a lovely day and I'm determined to have a lovely weekend. Hope you all do too.

Love Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm with janie on the old age thing. Firstly i agree we should all go to the same home And cause no end of entertainmemt for ourselves And frustration for our carers ;-). But secondly, I would wants kids to live their own lives with no obligation to wipe my wrinkled bum. My parents are very much on their own. My visits to the UK are rare and my sister is in Australia so her visits even rarer. They encouraged us to be independent from an early age, I don't know if leaving the country is what they meant to happen but they are both aware that they will be packed off to some home as soon as they become a liability.

Waikiki - I'm not sure I agree with you about children being unnerved about you. I think when you were young you great aunt did something or gave off some vibe that made to scared. I don't think we are perceptive enough when we are so young to be able to relate childlessness to child eater. It is something that has worried me a lot though. Being a freak in the eyes of adults I think I can come to terms with, but not in the eyes of kids. Society is very different here and I meet young kids out alone or with friends on pretty much a daily basis and I've made big efforts to talk to them. It helps to have a dog as they all ask to stroke him. Maybe it also helps that we are foreign too so are already a curiosity to them. Anyway, none are unnerved by me having no kids, one asked what class my child was in and I explained I had no children and 1 dog, 8 chickens and 100 000 bees instead. This turns out to be way more exciting if you are 6 than class numbers. Kids don't judge unless you unnerve them in some way xxx

Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry, rubbish 3G on this mountain so sticking to short posts.

Janie - you mentioned existentialism a while ago and I remembered something when talking to Waikiki, although I got muddled then. Anyway, my psychiatrist told me I should do Qi Gong for my existential crisis. I admit that most if the time I spoke to her I was sure we were in the wrong seats - she is like a walking definition of bonkers - but I think she might have a point about it. It was probably weeks ago you mentioned it but I only thought about it this week.

My cabin trip really is cleansing my sole And all i can see from my sunny beanbag on the deck is trees And mountains And all i can here us the river that has turned into a raging torrent.

Love katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi ladies!

I haven't had time to read many of the recent posts but I'd thought I'd pop on to say hello - I think of you all often.
Since I was last on, I've sold the north house, put an offer in on my dream home and the job is going ok.  Full of people politics, but I'm coping ok.  Looks like it won't be forever as the company may move to Coventry next year, but it pays the bills so I don't care!

Largely I'm feeling good about myself.  I sometimes trip myself up - a good example was the front page of the papers talking about the recent developments in IVF re: blasto/hatching stage timeline being significant to good implantation.  I almost dropped my basket in the supermarket, ran over and read it.  However, it wouldn't have helped me as I don't get to that stage.  It's odd, but 'giving up IVF' reminds me of giving up smoking - you think you're over it, something will happen and you will slip into old behaviour.  Another thing that upset me this week was a friend I cycled with went into early labour and lost both her twins.  So upsetting.  I have come to the conclusion I can't and wouldn't want to shield myself from these things.  I know it's ok to feel curious, upset and mad at life.

My conclusion is there will always be a part of me that wishes I could have had children.  And I'll always treasure and feel sad for that part of me who didn't have her dreams fulfilled.  On the flip side, releasing myself from punishing myself has been a discovery.  Life feels pretty enjoyable again.  The new house has 3 bedrooms but it's not with the intention of filling it with my family.  It's there for guests, yoga and my hubby's horn playing!  I do want a doggie.  Still arguing with hubby over that as we both work, but I think it would be lovely for us, and the new house has lots of good walking trails around.  A nice new life.

Anyway, I won't be back as often on here, but I will from time to time say hello.  I have to say thank you so much for your support, I wish you lots and lots of luck with your futures.  I think you've all saved my sanity many a time, particularly in the early part of this year.

Lots of love Mrs P xxx


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## LittleRose2012 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hi ladies!


It's been a while since I've posted, but i jumped on here tonight and have been reading through some recent posts. It really is incredible how much all your thoughts, feelings, experiences and outlooks on the future resonate with me. The most recent, from Mrs Pootle, is particularly freaky - I just showed it to my DH and he honestly thought I had written it. It is so so true. Your analogy with the smoking is spot on! I just heard about a friend, who conceived naturally after some fertility problems, which triggered old behaviour and emotions- i.e. visiting this website!
I just wanted to add my experience to the pot so to speak. I can remember last year, thinking I would never be free of IVF, of always wanting to give it one more shot. But after my last cycle I know am free of it now. The difference in my grief now and then is immense. I do feel sad that I'll never have children, but I also feel excited about my life. I feel like i have gone through an experience that has opened my eyes to a whole new world. We too have bought a new house and move into it soon. We also argue about a dog for the same reasons as Mr + Mrs Pootle! I used to hate being on my own - maybe it's that whole existentialism thing - but now I'm liking it more and more. 
I am going to a Jody Day talk in a few weeks time - thanks for the insight Nosilab. I hope it'll be really good. Someone here has mentioned making new childfree friends and that has really resonated with me ( I like that word!)  - maybe that'll be my next step in adapting to this way of life, making more strides in that area.
Anyway, I have no idea how I come across on here. I suppose what I want to say is that there is life after IF. I feel good. I feel a little wiser and certainly stronger. I'm sure that 'what if' will always be there, but maybe, just maybe, this other life will be better, more exciting and more adventurous than I ever dreamed.
I also have to say that I had a fantastic fertility counsellor who would say that empathy is rare, true compassion even rarer. If that's true, then surely we should give ourselves as much compassion as possible?
Someone here said 
"If I'm having a really good day I may even be able to convince myself that we are the fortunate few who ironically by not achieving one very important milestone in life are actually freed up to shape the rest of our lives much more in a way that most others are not."
And I have found this too. I don't know, i'm really blabbing on here, but i just wanted to say thank you so much to all of you for sharing on here. I have found it inspirational and very very comforting.  I am truely beginning to believe that inspite of everything, inspite of my worst fears coming true, amazingly, everything might just be ok anyway. I think I'm getting my confidence back!


Take care and sorry if I have been totally full of sh***!
Best wishes,
Roisin ( little Rose)


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Morning MrsP and Little Rose

Love love love both of your posts!  Very inspirational and reading them brings back a glimmer of happiness that I can see whichever way things turn out for me.  I think I'd lost that feeling again just recently, but a had a lovely warm "it'll be ok" type feeling in my tummy after reading both your posts.  Wishing you both lots and lots of luck with everything, especially the moves  

Little Rose, hope you enjoy Jody's talk!  I'd be interested to know what you think?  Have you joined the forum?

Talking of houses, a house just over the road from us went up for sale recently but the 'for sale' board only went up last week.  However I think it must have been online before that because when I logged on to be nosey it shows it as 'under offer' already!  The disappointing part is that this house would have been ideal for us and now we're not even in with a chance as someone has already beaten us to it!  One of the main reasons it would have been perfect (apart from bigger/extra space) is that it's got a workshop in the garden which would have been ideal for my potter's wheel!!  Gutted!  It was on for a really good price too....ah well.

Hope you've all had a good weekend ladies xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsP and little rose, thank you for coming and sharing your progress with us. I think I'm right behind you actually and finding myself more and more comfortable with the thought of being childfree, in fact more comfortable with that thought than the thought if having kids I think recently. Thanks for reinforcing the fact it ok to  think differently.

My cousin has just had her 2nd baby (her 1st came while she was waiting for ivf so I don't know whether its a miracle of science or nature) and it doesn't hurt in the same way the first did. I didn't know she was pg and despite the shock it's still fine. Sadly it will be a long long time until I can ever face seeing that side of the family but not because I am jealous if the babies, but because my parents broke their promise and told them we couldn't get pg even after IVF. I am still ashamed of people outside my close network knowing that but I'm pleased its not the baby news that hurts.

This weekend I am loving being childfree and MrsP and rose have helped with an extra boost. Perfect timing 

Back to bird watching and BBQing for me,
Love to you all,
Katxxx

PS. I noticed I was cleansing my soles yesterday, now they are cleansed I've been working on my soul lol


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, I'm liking the cleansing of soles/souls!!    Mountains, BBQing, rivers, bird watching.....ahhhh sounds blissful!  Can I come and join you please?!

Well, I 'forced' myself to do some pottery at home today - loooong overdue!  I have to say it's helped enormously with my PMA.  I loved every minute and am really chuffed with the little owl pot I've been making, he's not far off being finished.  DH also cleared the shed out and I got to see (and touch!) my potters wheel for the first time since we moved in 9 years ago.  Ok, so we couldn't get it working, but hey, it's there and it's still in one piece - think that combined with getting my hands dirty with clay has really made my day  

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey all
Just popping on to say that MrsP and LittleRose, you have no idea how well timed your posts were for me. They have helped me enormously this weekend. I'm so glad that things are going well for you both. Thanks so much for popping on with the updates! Exciting times.. new houses... and.... puppies!!! 


> I'm sure that 'what if' will always be there, but maybe, just maybe, this other life will be better, more exciting and more adventurous than I ever dreamed.


. I am actually starting to feel like this and it's so reassuring to hear from you other ladies who are maybe a few steps ahead of me that you're really doing OK. My decision isn't 100% made but I do genuinely feel that however things turn out, it's going to be OK. Better than OK. Given what we've all been through, I think that's worth celebrating.
I'm tired right now but didn't want too much time to pass without me saying how much I appreciated your posts.
Kat - the cabin sounds amazing. We're still planning a trip to Norway this year so I'm going to be in touch about that. You sound really mellow. 
Nosilab - you also sound like you've had a positive weekend. You go girl with that potting wheel! Thanks for telling more about Jody - I'm definitely going to look further into whether she's coming north of the border. 
JBT, Jen, Waikiki and anyone else reading.... 
Catch up soon.
Janie xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Morning ladies

It's so nice to have heard from Mrs P and I am happy you are in a good place.

I have been reading and many times wanted to post a response but just didn't. Anyway I hope to one day soon reach where some of you ladies are with regards to acceptance and moving on. 

Kat your little trip sounds amazing! I am thinking of taking a trip to the US next month I think being around my family will help a bit. I have put in an application for a job that is just so ideal for me I hope I at least get an interview... even better get the job which will take me to London for training  I am truly crossing all digits for this one! 

Anyway have a lovely day ladies. Btw I went walking alone again last night and I just loved it! So just to continue on that trend and all will be well with the world.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

JBT - great to hear from you. I know you're still struggling but your post sounded pretty upbeat and it sounds as though there are a few things on the horizon. I so hope you get the job... and if it does mean training in London then I really think this thread should organise it's first meet-up in celebration of you being in Europe. Seriously, I hope you get an interview. Well done on the walking. Even better that you enjoyed it!

I've had a turbulent few days. We have now requested our money back from the clinic. DH has been really ill and he also has some job issues and it simply wasn't going to be possible to start treatment this month regardless of any doubts I still might have. We couldn't cycle for another couple of months because of various commitments. So I guess we're another step closer to the 'other side'. I can still change my mind at any point. I still kind of need that crutch as I felt really sad and upset this morning (once I'd sent the email confirming we couldn't start) but I've been bouncing back as the day goes on. 

Nosilab - I've signed up with Gateway Women but haven't really had much of a chance to look at what's on offer although I did see there had been an event in Scotland recently so it's good to know we're on the radar up here. I'm looking forward to reading a bit more on the site when I get a chance.

Kat - hope you're hanging on to the good feelings from the cabin!

Night ladies.
Janie xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Wow - spooky eh Little Rose?  Funny how life's path can be similar eh?  I'll let you know when I've cracked the other half and got my way with my doggie dreams.... heh, heh!

Glad to provide a boost.  Re: Jody Day - I remember reading that interview in the Guardian - I may well look her up again.  I told quite a few of my "voluntary childless" friends about her too.  I think they were quite pleased that there was a group gathering ground that isn't children focussed.  I looked online at the time, but I don't think I was at the right stage & the website was pretty small too.  But I will have a look again.

JBT - Good luck with the job search - hope you get an interview!  
NordicKat - Bird watching and BBQ'ing - bliss - can I visit?  Turns out rat race isn't all it's cracked up to be!
Janie - Sounds like you have been thru a few decisions since I was last on - I hope the journey takes you to a place you are happy - because, at the end of the day - THAT is what is important.  And it doesn't need to be rushed - that's the other thing I've learnt - to be patient with myself and my feelings.
Nosilab - Thks for all the info on JD!

Right, beddie-byes for me.  Need some beauty sleep - in fact, a ton of it if you saw my commuters eye bags!

Love Mrs P xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - I thought exactly the same as Janie and hopefully we´ll all be seeing you in London soon   Did you walk again last night?

MrsP - I´ve not been brave enough to post on Gateway Women yet but I am a member and it seems pretty active now both online and with meets and stuff. One thing you´ll never be able to accuse Norway of being is a rat race  . If you look half as good as you sound at the moment then I think commuting suites you   

Janie - I think each step we take towards the ´other side´ is going to hurt a little but it must be the way to do it, little doses of sadness as we progress towards happiness. ´One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yield´ I think it was Tennyson that wrote that and I think he was clearly referring to the process of moving on. Oh and we are planning a Norway holiday this year too so I´ll share my research with you. I do have a top tip for you though when you start planning ......... oh and a glass of vino in Oslo with us is a must   

Nosilab - Has project ´fix the potters wheel´started then?

  to Jen and waikiki

I think I have the impression of peace and tranquility in the mountains but it wasn´t quite like that   . There were massive thunder storms every night so the rivers were huge and the one by our cabin was so loud we had to shout at each other to be heard and then every now and again a boulder moved on the riverbed and rumbled loudly, frightening pooch who then started woofing like a loon. And the cabin has a tin roof so at night, with the thunder echoing off the valley side and the rain hammering on the roof, it was pretty noisy. Fab though   . Oh and some of the roads washed away and the poor farmer was out repairing as fast as other bits were washing away. Anyone who didn´t have 4WD is probably still up there   

I´ve made a big decision, actually I made it last week but for some reason I didn´t feel up to going public, maybe I wanted to sit with it a while first. Anyway, I´ve decided we are going to destroy our frostie. There are many many reasons for it and lots of them have been discussed here in the last weeks. It wasn´t part of out plan to have a baby at this age and have a teenagers going off to uni when we are in our 60s - bang goes our retirement smallholding plan. My chances of PND are high, sort of guaranteed, and I´m not sure I can put a child and my DH though that knowingly. We have invested so much energy into being just the 2 of us and I´m not sure how well we´ll adapt to having to make so many selfless compromises. I need to get rid of the crutch that I have because I think its stopping me from properly moving on. And neither of us want to go through the stress, worry and disappointment of another failure. We are not signing the paperwork just yet because I have also made some very silly decisions lately so need to let this one settle first but I´ve been t. My silly decision was to go back to work full-time   . I kind of stuck to fingers up at the world and decided to prove I was ´normal´. Its going really badly    DH hit the roof when I told him especially when I reminded him that I was only doing his ironing until I was full time   . The shrink will also hit the roof when she finds out, and be annoyed that I was sneaky and did it while she was on holiday   . It was a mistake but I´m too ashamed to confess that beyond this thread.

Sorry, I know thats all a bit me me me, but I did want to share some of my reasons for destroying my frostie because I´ve found so many of your thoughts useful in helping me get my own thoughts in order.
Onwards and upwards, 
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Just going to publicly pat my own back    I went to physio and I was flipping brilliant although thats not what I want to gloat about   . There was some mother and baby group going on and I cursed the prams everywhere but not out of jealousy or envy or even heartache (of which there was none by the way), but because of there terrible pram abandonment in a rehabilitation centre   . And then when I was booking my next appts I just opted to change the time slightly so as to avoid it, there is no point exposing ourselves to potential pain unnecessarily after all. No stress at any point   . Then we were talking about my psychomotor phsyio and I just explained I met my therapist while ´I was in XXX hospital for a while last year´. I never ever confess that info to anybody outside my very closest friends but I´m not supposed to be ashamed so I tested the water and it was OK. 2 steps forwards for me today


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Good Morning I just had to respond to Kat,     good for you a bit pat on the back from me! I'll  say no more. And yes I do hope I get through with this one and we all have a big meet-up now that would be amazing!

Hi all still reading, I haven't disappeared or crawled under a rock. And yes I did walk again last night Kat and it was still good for me. I will be going again tonight and tomorrow then break on Friday.

Hope you all have a wonderful day, I will keep you all posted on any job news that may come my way. I did have a discussion with my boss here and I too will be going back full-time to work while talking to her I did get a bit teary eyed just saying the words "I won't be doing any treatments for now" she says she wanted to ask but knew I had a really bad run the last time and didn't want to bring it up. Anyway tomorrow is a holiday here Labour Day but I will still be at work.

More later.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Janie, so glad you joined! So have you joined the forum? If so hope to see you there!  Tough times recently for you and DH, but you now sound more upbeat. Sending hugs 

JBT, glad to see you're still out there, reading, and fab news re the walking! Sounds like you're enjoying it and that it's doing you good  Sending loads of luck for the job. Have everything crossed for you.

Kat, wow! So much going on for you at the mo. Even though the mountain trip sounds a bit soggy it still sounds _really_ lovely. You really do deserve that pat on the back, so very proud of you  As for the decision re your frostie, what an incredibly hard decision for you to make. Your post really got me thinking as I've been having mini 'wobbles' about doing another cycle and the poss of it working and then having a teenager in my mid 50's (DH mid 60's) - not really a thought I relish if I'm totally honest (which I can be on this thread!). So I really appreciate your honesty and sharing your decision.

As for project 'refurb potters wheel', I'm gonna ask at my workshop tomorrow if anyone knows of anywhere that refurbs wheels - and more importantly, how much!

Hi to all 

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

JBT - poop that you have to work the holiday but I hope it´s got a wee bit of a holiday feel about the day still. Good for you on walking.


Nosilab - I had a nose at the Gateway Women members today (mainly to work out who you and Janie were - spotted waikiki and Jen already   ) and noticed somebody is stood at a potters wheel in her profile picture. DH is working a lot with drugs and alcohol and we are learning how serious and dangerous an issue it is becoming for teenagers now, and the thought of it being my child is enough to stop me wanting more tx. But, I guess the thing is, we are imaging dealing with a teenager tomorrow which no doubt we´d all be rubbish at, but that not how it works. As our child grows into a nightmare adolescent, we will be growing and learning with them so it will probably be easier to deal with in 15 years than if we gave birth to a 15 year old tomorrow. Does that make sense? 


Well I not surprisingly had a very tough session with the shrink today after announcing my new full-time work status ............. the end result being that I´m no longer full-time although the % is still being negotiated    The other result is that I am whacked and so emotionally drained I haven´t been able to do much today apart from stare the the pc ................ don´t you hate it when people are right   


Katxxx


PS. JBT - have you checked out Gateway Women yet? There are lots of ladies based in the US, OK still a flight away from you, but still closer than us lot


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - just a very quick one but I'll be back later as wanted to post a proper reply to your recent posts.... but just wanted to say that ditto... I did the same thing today. I think I may have sussed you looking pretty cool in the snow?! I haven't put a photo up yet but I will later and maybe PM you with Norway questions and reveal my real name! Will have to look again for potters wheels?! Got to dash just now as have a therapet session!
xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Potters wheel lady must be around the J section as I was looking for ´Janie´ possibilities at the time. I concluded you´re not called Janie though


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - as Nosilab says, what an incredibly difficult decision to make about your frostie. I think you're doing the right thing with sitting with that decision for a little bit longer - just to be sure. I am also the queen of hasty decisions but I've had to learn to be a bit more patient during this process because so much is at stake. It sounds to me though that you are at peace with this decision... and you've taken your time in making it which is just as it should be. I guess there is no rush to see it through but I understand the sense of closure that this will hopefully bring - if and when you decide to go for it.   Actually, it sounds as though you've had a few little positive moments recently which is lovely to hear. I have to say that I'm glad you've been forced to renegotiate your hours back down a bit.... sounds like that decision was made in a fit of euphoria! So DHs ironing will also have to be renegotiated then too?


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Nosilab - fairly certain I've spotted you. No potters wheel but coastal piccies which is funny because I think I remember you talking about enjoying simple things like that when we first started this thread. I could be wrong though!
xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

I feel like a stalker!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Buggar - i forgot about the ironing deal ............. might be worth working full time after all ;-)

I'm still not sure if I've worked out nosilab yet and keep changing my mind but I'll stalk some more tomorrow. I still find it a very intimidating site for some reason, the lack of anonymity perhaps?

Tough decisions yep but isn't that what we are all well practiced at. 

Tough day = vino so its not all bad ;-)

Night night xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ah ladies!  Those few posts kept me entertained and gave me some giggles    I thought it was just me who felt like a 'stalker'!  Janie, sounds like you've found the right 'me' on Gateway, it is indeed a coastal piccie.  I absolutely LOVE being by the sea  

Kat, sorry to disappoint re the potters wheel lady, it's not me, although I like that idea!!  I'll PM you my name so you can track me down.  In fact I looked for you but not sure if your real name is Kat?!  

JBT, as Kat says, you should def check the site out


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ah ha nosilab, I'm a way better stalker than you think ;-) I knew your first name so had a couple of likely suspects, one of them being correct. I'm not kat but close enough to work it out I think.

The potters wheel lady got me excited because my first thought was that she was a potter like nosilab and then I realised that maybe we just define ourselves as infertile rather than society doing so. I just forgot for a bit that we all met though IF because to me, none of you are infertile ladies but ladies who happen to be infertile. Hard to explain?! Janie is Scottish and happens to suffer with IF, Jen is a skiing northerner who happens to suffer IF too. Waikiki and JBT i've known far too long for me to think of as infertiles, just lovely ladies. Mmmm, maybe I'll stop trying to explain that one. 

I saw on GW that there is a Norwegian lady and my first thought was to make contact but now I'm not sure. This might sound odd but to me my issues with IF are in Norwegian. I can post to my hearts content on here and even talk in person to you all about the things that hurt me most because in English I can disassociate from it. It hurts more to talk personal stuff in Norwegian because its really me. Lol, now i sound really kookie! 

I'm quite sure you can tell from this post that i'm in need of my double latte .......... ooooh And maybe they'll have some coconut cookies too ;-)

Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi ladies, just a quick note. Been reading and will check out GW today.  I go to the US for a week in June. Work wasn't bad yesterday, it is usually really boring on a holiday but not this one i was actually super busy. I will let you know what i think about the site.


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

So I've only been away for a few days and just look at all of the stalking I've missed out on!     I'm glad that you ladies are all checking out GW too, because so far I've been too shy to post.  Come over and join us JBT!

Kat - when you told me of an important decision in your PM last week, I wondered if it would be about your frostie and although I'm sure it has in some ways been a difficult and painful decision, I am happy to see that you seem remarkably at peace with it.  You're right, we have known each other for a while now, so I think I can point out to you just how far you've come since we first met and I'm so glad that you are seeing this as a necessary step to help you move forward, rather than keep you forever in limbo.  I totally understand and respect the reasons for your decision. 

By the way, bless you for saying that you don't think of me as infertile (one of my most hated words in the English language) - I don't think of you that way either, but it's all I think about myself.  Sometimes it takes someone else to point out what you can't see for yourself.

Sorry, that's all for now ladies as I've promised DH that we'll have a cosy film night tonight and I've been tapping away on here.  He's refusing to start the film until I give it my undivided attention!    

Will be back again over the weekend though no doubt.

 waikiki


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Waikiki - i read your post last night and had to hide my tears from DH lol. Going soft in my old age.

Another decision i feel very ok with is about work. I am now 50% and instantly feel better about it. I was planning to do more hours but financially its better to do 50 than 60% (complex system after you've been off for over a year). I can work more if i can but not get paid And to be honest i probably will. I have a really cool research project that doesn't have enough money so i can play pet projects at home when i am feeling good 

The mountains are deserted so its a fab weekend to be at the cabin again. Sun shining, lunch on the BBQ, beer nicely chilled, now i just need to hoof the pooch of my beanbag so i can sprawl out rather than sit on the corner!

Hope the sun is shining with everyone.
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, sounds like you've come to a really good decision re work, and sounds like it will give you some flexibility re doing more hours if you want to.  All good.  It's really beautiful here today too, just been sat in the garden with our 2 kitties in the sunshine - lovely!  

Big hello to everyone xx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry Kat, didn't mean to make you cry, but hope that they were happy, proud tears.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

We just got news today that really makes you think about life. DHs BiLs sister died today. She was younger than me and her youngest is not even a year old. She leaves 3 little ones behind :-( She was such a clean living mummsie mum, that's all she did, just was a mum. So sad, no child should lose a parent before they are even old enough to understand death :-(

Today we should all put extra effort into appreciating what we do have rather than what we don't.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Kat
Just read your post. You're absolutely right - that is just so desperately sad. It's definitely important to take time and appreciate what we do have.. not just what we don't. I'm in no way playing down the pain of IF because I suspect we've all faced moments of wondering what the point of it all is without children... and feeling so desperately unlucky compared with our contemporaries... but things like this make you realise that life can be cruel in so many ways. It's definitely important to cherish what we do have right now. 

I hope everyone is doing OK. Don't seem to have any time for anything right now but thinking of you all.

Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Kat I'm so sorry to hear your very sad news  Such a young life lost, and with 3 little ones it is just tragic. When things like this happen it does makes us stand back and take notice of life, and as you quite rightly say, make us appreciate what we _do_ have. Much love xx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat I just read the sad news, I am so sorry to hear! my prayers are with you and your extended family. Be strong my friend.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Her death isn´t a loss that DH and I feel personally since we have both only met her a couple of times and even then just in passing really. My sadness is for her little ones and DH is sad for his sister and BiL. They are all very close so its hit them very hard, but at the same time, being close means they are all there for each other too. DHs sister has 4 of her own kids and I think her 3 nieces/nephew have joined them too so they are being kept very busy with all 7 kids (6 of them under 10  ). 


I´ve had a tough couple of weeks and there have been too many triggers for me to ignore and I think I am now, after all this time, grieving myself. As a non-crier I make short work of a box of tissues with the psychologist yesterday, and in between all the snotty snuffling and blubbing I voiced things I didn´t even know I felt. My heart and head hurt like crazy but I´m hoping its a good sign. Its not healthy to keep everything looked up is it and feeling so dreadful must be part of the healing process ........... please just humour me on this one   . I did something really naughty last night though and I just didn´t know what to do with myself and my emotions, so I got drunk    ........... don´t tell the psychologist   

Today I am being kind to myself though, I don´t have the energy to worry about anybody else so its just me, my book, the espresso machine and my boy who senses something is up and hasn´t left my side since yesterday afternoon although I am going to draw the line at letting him in the shower with me.

I hope you are all being kind to yourselves too, you all deserve it.
Katxxx


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## jamaicababytrying (Jun 29, 2010)

Kat lots of hugs to you my friend, do be kind to yourself... I am not in a good place either so unfortunately I can't offer much words of encouragement but what I can offer is an ear and loads of prayers to you.. your secret is safe with us   sometimes we do things that may not always be the right thing but they make us feel better in that moment. Don't beat yourself up over it, remember this too shall pass... 

Hi to all the other ladies... I am still here reading, when I have the energy to put my thoughts down you all will be the first to hear them  

Have a great day


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

So sorry to hear you've had a tough couple of weeks Kat    Sounds a bit like a volcano waiting to erupt, long overdue.  I hope you found the session(s) helpful?  How are you feeling now? xx

JBT, really sorry to hear things aren't good for you either   xx

Hello to anyone else who's still out there reading xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies...

Nosilab, yes, definitely still reading, just not getting much chance to sit and reply properly. But don't you ladies disappear - that fills me with dread!

Kat - how are you doing now? It sounds as though you've been through the wringer over the last few weeks. I'm guessing that this is maybe the fallout from making your decision about your frostie? Are you still feeling like that is the way you want to go? My instinct is that you are right when you say that this is a good sign... perhaps a stage of final healing? I was surprised to read it because I have got the impression from reading your posts that you had done your final 'closure'.... I guess it shows just how deep these emotions can run. I guess reading your post feels me with slight trepidation because I can't help but think that what you are experiencing is 'in the post' for me too. I'm still doing OK... buoyed by the sunshine, maybe... but apart from the usual (daily) blips which don't last too long, I'm OK. I met up with a friend this weekend. She told me they'd started 'trying'. Not really sure how I feel. I've been dreading her announcing a pregnancy for so long that I guess I maybe just feel relieved that it will be soon be over. She's the last of my close friends to get to this ... surely it has to get easier from here? I had another pang this evening when I saw a neighbour who got married last year looking like she had a wee bump. But the pang was more of frustration about how easy it is for some people I think. I'm definitely more unsettled tonight than I have been in a while. But it's not bad. Anyway, I really hope you've had a nice weekend and you're feeling a bit better after being looked after by pooch and nurse Rioja. Take care.   Will PM you tomorrow hopefully.

Nosilab, how are you doing? Have you had any follow up from your GW meeting? Everything OK with you? I hope so.

JBT - also sorry that things not so great for you right now either. You sounded quite positive a few posts ago so I was hoping that things were maybe starting to take a little turn? Any job news at all? When are you off to the States, are you getting to see family when you go? I hope so.

Jen / Waikiki - I'm sure you're still out there lurking so hello lovely ladies. I hope you're doing OK.

x


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Morning all, 


I´m OK I think. I am very good at putting my head in the sand and kidding everyone, including myself, that everything is fine. I also don´t think my biggest upset is that I´m not a mum. I had shame beaten into me a long time ago and I still struggle with it now. I just feel thoroughly ashamed that we tried IVF so many times and it still didn´t work, ashamed we pulled out of adoption, completely ashamed of my criminal record and incarceration at the loonybin. I am regretting tx now because I think I feel more awful for failing at IVF than I would have done just failing to be a mum naturally. I´ve been on GW a little but there is no way I can tell my story on there because I´m too ashamed of myself - on here nobody apart from you guys knows my real name. I think my session with the shrink was just a bit too much this week and knocked me out for 2 days.


This weekend was stressful for a whole other reason. We went to see a house and it was fab on so many levels - waterside, pontoon, private mooring, great views, land and more besides - but there were a couple of niggles so we spent the ENTIRE weekend deciding how important those niggles were. There was a lot of pressure because we had to have a bid in this morning. We, late last night, decided against a bid ........ phew. We have seen another house to look at in a weeks time though which gives us time to think before we even see it. I seem to be OK if I have something like that to focus on. Then I had a really silly setback this morning. There are 2 women in the street with dogs (kids too but we only talk dogs) and one asked me to go walking with her. I couldn´t at the time because my boy is not allowed to run free at the moment because of his leg but I bump into them both in the week when we are out walking. Anyway, this morning I bumping into them both together on a planned walk and I feel so small for not being invited. They were both talking kids a the time and clearly the freaky foreigner can´t join in that talk so they said they would wait while I got ahead. OK, the reality is that they know pooch can´t run free (actually at the moment their dogs aren´t allowed to either due to baby deer) so maybe that was the reason they excluded me, but maybe its because I´m the freak on the street   


Blimey - another outburst   


The sun does help Janie thats for sure - I got burnt on Friday falling asleep on the deck. More Nurse Prosecco weather than nurse Rioja I think. My shrink told me off for over analysing how I feel about pregnancy announcement type things. Sometime we´ll feel happy, sometimes sad, and either way, it, ok and understandable. It doesn´t need a label sticking on it. I do understand the perhaps just wanting it over and done with feeling though. Once all babies are born maybe we can move to the next chapter   


JBT - I didn´t beat myself up over the alcohol ....... I just opened another bottle   


Hi everyone else. Just realised late for physio.
Katxxx


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## patientlywaitin (Jul 15, 2011)

Hi ladies,
Sorry for jumping on to this thread, but I've finally taken the leap to reading this board after a lot of contemplation.
I've had two failed fresh cycles and two failed frozen. My DH was poor sperm quality and other than a borderline U/A thyroid and slight immune problems we're considered a fairly straightforward case with higher success chances. Unfortunately it's never that simple.
Like many of you, I think I wanted children because its expected and that my vision of the future didn't involve my husband and me alone. Wanting to be normal and having the security of children in later life drove my ivf experiences thus far much more than 'broodiness'.
Now I am at the stage where I can't bring myself to keep going. Between dishing out money, the pain and inconvenience of the treatment and the lies to friends and family to cover our treatment is just too much. Our last cycle was our first at Argc since moving to England from Ireland and was an FET and though we always said we'd love to have a fresh cycle there, it's just so intense.
I suppose I can live with live without children as I love my husband enough to be happy with him and only him, he is just that wonderful, but what I need to know is this..........

When someone asks 'do you have any children yet?' What do I say now?

I've been using the 'oh God not yet, we're happy to wait a while' up until now, and although I know it'll be easy to tell my extended family as they'll understand, how do I tell all the others? Random, unsuspecting people, who ask just to make conversation. I don't the pity look that I know would accompany the response that I can't have children.

I'm sorry to ask that question, I know it's so difficult for us all, but I just need this one last hurdle passed so I can move on without that slight feeling of embarrassment when I'm asked.

Although I don't post often, ladies please know, you are all amazing, and I couldn't have gotten through the last few years without following your journeys x


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi PatientlyWaitin - please don´t appologise for posting on the thread. Its here to be posted on  . I´m glad you got something out of the ramblings on here.

I have a theory about answering the ´do you have kids?´question. I´m pretty sure that if you are upbeat and positive in a response of ´no we can´t´then nobody will feel sorry for you. I have never tested my theory though  I´m sure if you follow it up with something appropriate to the situation you´ll not get pity. We were looking around a massive house this weekend and the guy asked if we had kids. I just said a straight ´no´ and he followed it up with an upbeat ´ ooh, loads of space for just to 2 of you then´ and I just think if I´d have said ´we can´t have kids, we´ll just have all this space for us´ then how could anybody be pitying.

´we can´t have kids so can come to this cool bar whenever we like´ or ´we can´t have kids so can do this (whatever the situation is) any time we please´

It makes it all sound to positive a thing to let anyone feel sorry for us don´t you think? If you think about somebody who is really really ill. When they tell you about it you feel sorry for them if they are really glum and feeling sorry for themselves. If they are really ill but yet doing something fab and brave, then you wouldn´t feel sorry for them, you would admire them. I think we have to apply the same principle to infertility.

´No I can´t have kids but I´m still great and worthy and damn well fab!´

Obviously this is all theoretical and as yet, untested, but one day I´ll be brave enough to try.
Katxxx

PS. Nice you read that you are at peace with your decision to move on


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## Maisyz (Dec 15, 2010)

patientlywaitin said:


> When someone asks 'do you have any children yet?' What do I say now?


I sually go with, "No I'm incapable of having them despite numerous hideous, painful and degrading treatments, would you like details?", People tend not to ask again and no one has ever had the balls to ask for details

Otherwise just say No and ignore any follow up questions.


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## patientlywaitin (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks Kat and Maisyz, I think I cried then laughed out loud.....def will consider the 'hideous treatments' line with some of my nosier aunts!
You guys are the best.
Chin up guys, I truely believe we all have a great life ahead of us, we were chosen for this path as we are strong and we sure as hell deserve a reward in some other form down the line x


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Evening ladies,

I have just had a most delicious rhubarb fool dessert, as the rhubarb in my garden is finally ready to eat.  Anyway, it made me think of Kat and JBT and our rhubarb discussions of several weeks ago  .  It's a bit quiet on here at the moment, but I hope that you are all doing OK ladies.

  waikiki


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

ARGggggghhhhh! Just wrote a long reply and then somehow managed to close the window without any warning whatsoever! Hell fire!

OK, the jist of it was in response to Patientlywaitin. I was saying that to be honest, I'm rarely asked this question, which is off given I'm almost 40 so you'd think I would have had it fired at me loads over the last ten years. But I really don't think I have? I have actually been asked a few times recently but to be honest, a simple no did the trick. I probably made some joke about my dog being enough and moved the conversation on. In fairness, I think most people only really ask this out of interest and so I don't really feel any need to be too 'assertive' in my response and I also don't feel the need to give strangers any details of the situation ... I will tell people in time as and when I decide they are 'here to stay' as friends. Perhaps telling the truth is more the brave thing to do and stops IF being such a secret ... but I'm not sure I'm ready to fight that battle just yet... got enough of my own! If anyone didn't take no for an answer or  dared to suggest that I was 'missing out' or anything then I might not be so reserved. But in fairness, I've generally found people don't pry...  or maybe it's just the vibe I give off!   

Kat - how was the second house? House with private mooring. One word. Wow!!! I hope you're doing OK. I know you've had a tough few weeks. I hope the sun has continued to shine on you.... and nurse prosecco is doing her job nicely!

How's everyone else doing? It's been quiet on here. Are we all silently contemplating. Thinking of you all. 

I'm a bit all over the place at the moment. We're at so many crossroads right now that I don't know which way to turn. IF is just one part of the jigsaw. DH will find out later this week whether he still has a job. He seems to be getting to grips with the idea of redundancy. He even mentioned the possibility of staying home with a baby. WTF? So now he's interested? I have an interview in a couple of weeks to start a course to retrain next year but obviously won't be doing that if DH out of work... so I've had to start thinking of how I can continue to earn because my current job is beyond unbearable. A job has actually come up which might be OK so I'll have to apply over the next couple of days. To top it all, we have just found out that on account of new funding being available up here, we will be offered a round of IVF on the NHS (we were always entitled to it but the waiting list was 4.5 years in our area) so been having to go over it all over again. It shouldn't come down to money but the equation seems different somehow. I've hassled the hospital relentlessly this week and seemingly I would get it in October. Brilliant, I would know the result precisely 2 weeks after I would have had to hand in my notice on my job to start the uni course if I do it. Anyway, everything seems to have been turned upside down and I'm now considering just giving Greece a go next month. Then I could take my free round in October and feel able to draw a line under it all. I'm not sure if I'm just panicking and I know some of it is just a reaction to my friend saying she was 'trying' last weekend. It's probably also partly from DH suddenly being OK with the idea when he thinks he'll be at home with the baby... kinda indicates the 'baby' isn't the problem. To be honest, I don't really know what I'm thinking just now and probably just need to see how things develop over the next couple of weeks. I can't believe I'm back to thinking of going for it again when I only just got the money back from the clinic.  .  I think I just need to let everything settle again for a while. I wish I lived in a bubble and didn't have to cope with friends babies. I'd be fine then.  

Take care everyone. 
Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello and welcome Patientlywaitin, for me I guess it depends on who is asking, how they ask, what mood I'm in (ie am I currently coping or not) and if the other person has children/is pregnant - but generally I tend to answer truthfully and say assertively "we haven't been able to have children".

Kat, how are you feeling at the mo?  You sounded very low in your post from the 3rd June.  I know it's easy to say but please don't feel ashamed of the paths you've taken in life, we all do things in life we'd probably do differently with hindsight, but we shouldn't have regrets, they're all experiences that shape who we are and in most cases make us stronger people  

Janie, wow!  Lots to think about, no wonder your head is in a spin again!  Great news re the NHS treatment, better late than never - so they say!  Sounds like a good plan re Greece then NHS, will you wait on making a final decision until DH knows what's happening with his job?  That's a turn up for the books though, him saying he'd stay home with baby!    I'd love to live in a bubble too, I think I'd cope much better then too.  Just had a fab day out with a very good friend (who doesn't have children - yet).  We had a lovely pub lunch and a woodland walk, it was so lovely and felt very happy.  Days like that remind me I can live a very happy childfree life, but then something usually brings me back down again  

Waikiki, sounds like you've had a productive time in the kitchen making yummy things!  Mmmm  

Well, as for GW I do browse and post replies occasionally, it helps to dip my toe in to the 'other side' (ie moving on), kinda trying to prepare myself.  I'm feeling very confused again at the mo, not sure what to do re the final cycle of treatment (FET).  I keep thinking I might regret it if I don't do it, and always wonder 'what if', but then I also wonder whether too much time has passed and that now DH and I are older we might regret becoming first time parents at 41 & 50?!  I still feel guilty for 'pushing' DH into this when he quite clearly and honestly says it's not what he wants.  I have good days/weekends like today where life is good, I feel positive about a childfree life and want to move on and get my life back on track.  Then other days that seems almost impossible and I feel like my head is all over the place. CONFUSED.COM!!    DH and I agreed I'd call the clinic early July to discuss arranging the FET, at the time (Easter) that seemed such a long time to wait when I just wanted to get going!  But now it seems to be speeding towards me and I don't know what to do - I feel like a rabbit in headlights!  I wanted the decision making process to come to an end by the end of this year, so don't want to drag it out too much longer, but at the same time how can I make a sensible decisions when my head is all over the place?!  I was laying in bed this morning imagining myself pregnant and I kinda thought "I don't want that!!" So what has the last 5 years been about then??   

Janie, re GW follow ups, I've been out for a pub/food meet up since the meet up with Jody.  That was good, great to meet some more GW ladies, lots of chat.  One of the women is in the process of trying to organise the next meet up, probably a picnic.  Should be good.  I think having the GW women around is what's making me question everything a bit more now - I can see 'the other side' and it doesn't look that bad!  Yes, ok, they still have their crappy days, I don't think they ever go away.  But overall they live perfectly happy fulfilled lives - children not obligatory  

Funny ol' world eh! Hope everyone has had a good weekend?  I'm looking forward to the next one already!

Jen, hope you're ok?  Not heard from you in a while.  In fact I was talking to DH about you this morn and saying that you have a similar situation to me in that your best friend has just had a baby and you're struggling with it.  How are things between you both?  Have you been to see her and baby?  I think I remember you saying you were thinking of going with a friend?  I still haven't seen my friend or her baby.  I was told she'd posted some family portrait photos on ******** (professional ones) but didn't want to see them!!  She sent me a text a few weeks back just saying "miss you xxx".  Talk about making me feel guilty  

JBT, hope you're ok?  You've gone off the radar a bit lately?

Well, this was going to be a quick post, but seems to have turned into a mammoth one!  Hello to everyone else reading.

xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey Nosilab, lovely to hear from you... my goodness, as always I could empathise with everything you said. I absolutely understand the doubt creeping in after taking a look at the 'other side' and just wondering whether maybe that is now the path that is best for us. I think I got my 'other side' view from so much reading before I should have started my last treatment. I also know that feeling of time coming around too quickly when previously the months couldn't pass quickly enough. It's all so bleedin' now or never isn't it. From my own perspective I wondered whether that really meant that I was actually pretty happy with the status quo and not wanting things to change... but also not wanting to close the door and the inevitable blows of regret. I don't have an answer for you but I can absolutely 100% understand how you are feeling. Ah yes, that bubble would be amazing wouldn't it. I still haven't seen my friend who had her baby at the start of the year. We've been in email contact and she has been totally understanding and also said things like she misses me... I am planning to see her just to get it over with but I know it will knock me completely for six and I'll be a mess afterwards. So what future is there in it? Even if I see her this time then I'm not going to want to see her again any time soon? I don't want to hear about any of it really and that would be OK for one meeting but at some point life has to go back to normal and what then? I won't want to hear about it in 2 years time either. Maybe in 16! I also had a lovely weekend away with DH in the sunshine and the mountains. Again, I was constantly questioning whether a child now, in our forties, is really what I want. I do know that I don't want to sit around with all my friends and their babies though.  Let me know when you've figured it all out!! If only we could fast forward and take a look at our lives in ten years time! One thing that does seem appealing about the CF life is that it's more in our control. We would get back what we put into it... to some degree anyway. Am sick of being so out of control.

I am by no means clear that I will do either of the treatments, just that it's crept back in as something I'm considering and it's taken me totally by surprise. I guess it's partly because of all the job uncertainty. I had thought I had found something new to throw myself into but that might not be possible now and I suppose that void has opened up in front of me again. But that's not a good enough reason to have a baby. I think I just need to take the next few weeks a day at a time and see how things settle. I don't know whether it's better to meet up with my friend and her baby or worse. Better to face up to it? Or does it just confuse matters? So fed up of all this uncertainty too.

JBT - have you been to the States yet? How are you doing? Any news on that job you were thinking of applying for?

Jen - hope you're doing OK. xxx

Right, on on.

Janie xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Room for a small one in that bubble?


 to you both. Its so hard I know. I just want someone to tell me what the right answer is.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

I have to admit I'd backed away from here because it felt like some of you lovely ladies were confidently moving on and feeling mostly okay with that decision, I know it's never as straightforward as these recent posts show. I guess it just wasn't where I was and in a way I just didn't feel like I fitted here. I recognise that's not the case and actually I probably just withdrew generally. Anyway, I'm getting some therapy and my GP has and is being very supportive and I think I'm starting to come out of that horrible dark place I found myself in. 

Janie - I can see how much this would stir things up for you. I think we can all relate to the impact our DH's view has on it all. We've all battled with that feeling that we are coercing them into tx and we've all felt how lonely and frightening that can be. It has a massive influence on our decisions to cycle or not and your DH's change of heart is bound to generate some very mixed feelings. Throw into the mix the offer of another funded cycle and it's no wonder your head's in a spin! I think you're right to give yourself some time to sit with this, there are no easy answers. Would it be possible to set the wheels in motion for the NHS cycle knowing that if it didn't feel right you could cancel? It's difficult to know what to do, but I know that having that plan in place for me feels okay. For now we're booked in but the clinic have said it's fine to cancel or postpone at any time. I'm trusting that I as the time comes nearer I will know whether it's right or not.

I'd pretty much decided that the last cycle would be exactly that, our last cycle. Having a positive result complicates that decision and I know deep down I would regret not giving it one last go (I know that's a very personal decision and I'm not voicing it to influence/judge anyone else's). DH has given mixed messages about it all, to begin with he was keen but is now back to ambivalence. I think in part that is down ot him being very distracted with his new business - he's in the States at the minute. I know he also has concerns about how quickly it all could happen (provisionally due to start DR end of next month) but there's part of me that can't bear the idea of life being on hold much longer. Like you all I worry about being a parent in my 40's, but I also know some women who have had children in their 40's and who are great parents. I was all on board for it aged 38, does 2 years make that much difference in the grand scheme of things? These are all hypothetical questions, clearly there has to be a cut-off at some point.

Nosilab - I'm due to go and see my friend at the end of this month; it's her birthday then too so two birds with one stone and all that. She popped round to see my mum this week and again my mum explained that I'm finding it difficult but that it doesn't stop me being happy for her. I have to admit I do feel a bit let down by her, I'd emailed her before seeing her when she was still pregnant to let her know we were in the middle of cycle but it wasn't looking good and there's been no answer, no acknowledgement. She's happy to respond to texts/emails about other stuff and has peppered ** with almost daily updates and photos. I know that is a public arena and a way of sharing with friends who live far away, but even her texts are full of baby chat and it just feels incredibly insensitive. She's my oldest friend and I've known her since we were babies; I don't want to cut her out of my life but I also know that if thing's don't change I will struggle to see her. I guess there's just a massive contrast between her and some of my other friends who are incredibly supportive and sensitive.

As for the FET -  I think it can be incredibly hard to let go of frozen embryos. On the one hand it can be comforting to know they are there, that you have that option, but deciding not to use them feels like a tougher decision than deciding to stop treatment when there aren't any frosties.  July isn't set in stone, it was simply a date you both agreed on to give yourself time to get used the idea. If you don't feel ready to make that decision then don't. You could perhaps just call the clinic to check how long it would be before you could begin a FET cycle and see if that brings any strong feelings either way...

Anyway, it's nice to be back in touch, I just wish it was for reasons other than a mass muddling of heads!

JBT - I've also noticed you've been quiet, I've wondered if you've felt a little as I was in which case I hope you jump right back in and fill us in on your US plans, baking, walking and anything else that's been happening with you.

Kat - I hope we see you here soon, and that you're doing ok.

Waikiki - I had rhubarb crumble last week, delicious!

Take care all, big hugs to all   

Jen xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat - our posts crossed. Nothing more to add expect I think we might need a bigger bubble for us all


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hey there bubble ladies, step aside...I'm coming in too! 

I'm at work so can't respond to the other posts yet, but will be back later - I am similarly muddle-headed at the moment and a lot of what you all said echoed what I have been thinking lately.

Hugs to you all.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi girls, soooo so lovely to hear from you all today although it's a shame that we are all in such a mess. 

Kat -    - I read your post earlier and I wished I could have just come right on over and given you a real hug. Sometimes it's all just too much.  Don't worry about letting it all out. We all need to do that sometimes. I hope tomorrow is a better day.

Jen really lovely to hear from you but sorry to hear you've been in such a dark place. I'm not surprised though given what you've been through over the last few months so don't be hard on yourself. I'm really glad that you're maybe starting to feel as though you are coming out of it slightly.   Lots that I want to comment on from your last post and lots of it resonating with me as always. Too tired right now after spending the evening writing an application all night for a job I'm really not sure I want. I seem to be trying to keep 3 different lives moving at the moment, one where I become a student, one where I change job and one when I try to become a Mum. It's exhausting. I just want to know which way I'm headed.

Waikiki... muddle-headed?? ... well it looks as though you're in the right place...

oh dear girls    What are we like today? 

take care all of you.
xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

Thanks Janie, I think i probably have been giving myself a hard time but I'm giving myself a bit more space on that one now. It sounds like you're juggling a hell of a lot at the minute, it's no wonder you're exhausted. It also sounds like you're questioning whether you should be applying for this job if you're not sure you want it - look as it as giving yourself options without any need to commit at the minute. You sound really unhappy in your current job and it seems the right move to look at other alternatives. Hopefully you'd get a better vibe at the interview (because they'd be crazy not to offer you an interview  ). I guess the only thing I would say is try to make some time for yourself, it's so much harder to know your true feelings about something when you're exhausted.

I'm saddened to know so many of us are struggling at the minute; life really does have a habit of throwing curveballs (and sometimes they feel more like cannonballs). 

Waikiki - muddle-headed definitely sums it up. I think we need to order in some cocktails and cake for our bubble.

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Cannonballs for sure Jen.

I deleted my posts Janie because they made me feel even more vulnerable. 

At work now (forgot my laptop though!!) and very close to curling up in the corner to hide. The whole racing heart sweaty panic ..... hence being on here I guess instead of doing any work.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Aw Kat, you sound to be really struggling. I'm sorry you had to delete your posts, I didn't get to see them so I'm not sure what in particular is causing you so much distress. I can understand not wanting to leave things up as they make you feel vulnerable - please know that you can PM or email me, anytime.

Is there anyway you can leave work? I suspect you probably want to try and stick it out but it doesn't sound to be what you need right now. I've struggled at work lately in a similar way, feeling panicked (often without really knowing why) and out of control, and sometimes just getting outside and having some time to breath can help a little. 

I wish I could help


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Kat - has your therapist given you strategies to cope when you feel like this? I only ask because I know mine has but I know it's not always easy to remember to use them when you're in the midst of feeling so awful.

Sending lots of gentle hugs


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Jen - I used my here&now stuff for the bus journey. Now I'm hiding out in the lab just mind numbingly weighing poop which is good. The only other person is my ex-student and he is nonjudgmental and chilled. I'm feeling more in control. Oh and I finally plucked up the courage to share on GW although I'm too scared to go back on there today. Bonkers hey?!?!

I'll reply to your mail soon I promise.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Not bonkers lovely lady, brave and honest. 

There are many stories of pain on GW and I admire each and every one of the posters who share their stories, you included. It makes us all feel less lonely and the support given lifts everyone, not just that initial poster. And yes, as you rightly deserve that support is already being extended to you so don't be afraid to go back on.

I never imagined a scenario where poop weighing would be a good thing but I can see how it could be the distraction you need!

No worries on replying to the email, I was just checking in


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## rosebud_05_99 (Apr 15, 2008)

Hi everyone, can i ask what GW is.
Rosebud


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Gateway Women

Check it out rosebud. Lots (over 400 now) of childless (for many reasons) women chatting about all sorts. Lots of social stuff too from what I can gather, especially if you are uk based. It's not the same as here and it's much shorter snippets of what is on people's minds rather than our complete heart emptying posts here.

4 or 5 of us are there but it's real names so you'll have to tell us if you join so we can all reveal ourselves.

I got through my day and now i'm on the deck with a cloud free sky at 27 degrees c and a cold beer in my hand, safe in the knowledge that all the poo is weighed out and magic chemistry type stuff will happen overnight. If only the rest of life could fall into place so easily.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Thank you for your lovely supportive and understanding replies ladies, I've just read though them all    I don't know why it took me so long to post my thoughts and feelings really, as my head's been in a spin for a while now - it's really not like me to keep things bottled up  

Yes, maybe I'll just call the clinic in July to enquire about timescales etc, but not to necessarily commit to any tx.  I'll see how I feel.  Isn't it funny, in January I would have been chomping at the bit to get going with tx, now I feel like I'm dragging my heels.  Funny how time can change perspective.

Janie and Jen, I'm very proud of both of you for arranging to visit your friends with new babies.  That's way more than I've had the courage to do, I'm still frantically trying to keep my head buried in the sand!  Like you I've known my friend all my life, so there's part of me that doesn't want to lose that friendship, it seems so sad to let that happen.  But then part of me thinks it'll never be the same and I'll never be 'ok' with the new situation so why force it!  Let it drift so we can both move on with our very different lives.  Either way I'll be sad, so it kinda feels like a no win situation.

Rosebud, definitely check out Gateway Women and the forum, it's a great place.  Like Kat says, if you do join let us know so we can look out for you  

Kat, I'm very intrigued with the poop weighing!  In a weird kind of way it sounds rather interesting?!  After the rubbish few weeks I've had at work I'd like to be there with you weighing poop in the lab!  Talking about 'here & now' stuff, I woke up with pains in my chest early yesterday morn (stress) and then on and off throughout the day, so after work I was trying to do some mindfulness but it's soooo hard to keep it up for more than a couple of mins isn't it?!  But the few mins I did do felt like it really did help.  I've just been on GW, I'm glad you plucked up the courage to go and check all your replies....see, nothing to worry about.  Everyone cares and understands  

Well, I still need to try and chill out a bit more, chest pains haven't completely gone away so I'm going to get myself off to bed with a book I think to try and relax.

Take care lovely ladies, speak soon xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - I have a slave to did the stinky poo drying phase and I just got the dry fragrance free stuff. Its not very exciting to be honest and I´m just measuring some ´pollution´in it.

You can pull out of tx at the very last minute if you want to. Perhaps just go with it and see how you feel nearer the time, it might be that once you are at the starting date then you´ll feel its the right thing to do. I find that the thought of a childless future is much less daunting when I surround myself with others the same. As soon as I´m talking to friends with children then the rosy future is harder to see and I imagine if I decided to do tx again the being childless would suddenly unthinkable. You´re building a small network of childless friends and it feels safe, going for FET means stepping right our of our comfort zone. It was OK on previous cycles maybe because you had nothing to lose, a childless future was just not an option. Now you´ve had a glimpse of an OK future without kids then its harder to open up all those wounds again that might just be buried rather than healed ............. sorry, proper blah blah blah mode today   

FF reminds me of what I don´t have. GW reminds me of what I can have.

Tough decisions ahead for you Jen and Janie too.

Waikiki - I hope things are OK with you and that you are not too stressed.

JBT   

I´m heading out for coffee in a bit with my fellow lunatic asylum friend (DH calls us care in the community when we are out together  ) who had a tough week ........ like I´m in a position to help her this week   We´ll probably just make ourselves sick on cake instead which generally solves all of the most important dramas.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Nosilab - perhaps it's harder because you've already starting going through the painful process of accepting that children might not be part of your future. It takes hard work and some painful soul searching so it must now feel pretty destabilising to now consider an FET. Maybe it feels as though all the hard work you've done will be undone and that if it doesn't work you'll be back to square one; I can completely see why that wouldn't be a tempting prospect! I'm not sure it works like that though, I'm not sure that work would be invalidated, more that it can give you hope that you can reach a point where a childfree life is okay.

I guess I'm kind of with Kat on this one, starting the process doesn't commit you to it and might just uncover your feelings a bit more.

On that note, I've put back our next cycle. A combination of work pressures and not feeling ready. I expected to feel relief at the decision but I'm not sure I do. I was at a friend's last night (there were 5 of us there) and I just felt horribly disconnected from them. Not just about children, there was very little chat about them, I just didn't feel able to engage with anyone. I came away feeling low and saddened, the opposite of what I'd hoped for.

Tonight I shall eat cake and drink wine (maybe not together!). I have my kitties to keep me company (DH has been away on a work trip for a week, one night home then off to a music festival) and I'm looking forward to some me time.

Enjoy the cake today Kat, hi to everyone else - thinking of you all xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

There is no better combo than wine and cake     Catch up properly later Jen but I completely get the whole ´not being part of the world feeling´ (nothing to do with kids) and quite often feel I am sitting on the outside looking in, rather than being part of anything.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Me too Kat, that's exactly it - it's something I've struggled with for a long time and it can be quite exhausting trying to maintain that feeling of connection.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Me too ladies.  

Hi ladies, just a quick post from me as on phone. Heading off fos supposed anniversary weekend but my head is so messed up i don't think will be much of a success. 
Nosilab, I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I have no words of wisdom right now as i'm in a complete mess. I finally decided, for all sorts of reasons, that as we would do our NHS round, we should just totally go for it and fit in plaaned round in Greece first. But the dates couldn't ne any worse and in a twist of unbelievable bad timing, I would need to be in greece precisely on the days that my sister is visiting from nz with her kids. My relationship withy sister is on it's knees. She has said some of the most hurtful things to me over last 3 years and there is no way she will understand. We can't cycle in august as clinic is closed. After that it would be too late to recover for nhs round. Anyway, I don't mean to go into details, more, the point I'm making is that having decided to step back into the ring I'm already well down the slippery slope of losing my mind to IVF and can barely remember all those positive feelings I felt so strongly about a childfree future. The process


has truly sucked me in.  Nosilab, don't congratulate me on visiting friends with babies. So far that is all talk from me and right now I can't even imagine doing it. Jen... That you are visiting your friend is in my mind truly heroic. I'm sorry you had such a tough time last night. I guess our problems are isolating. Biggest hug to you. Xx

I find it almost impossible to write messages from my phone but I really wanted to say hello and that I'm thinking of you all and am just so sad that we're all in such a messed up place right now.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie (((((hugs)))) You are a very brave and strong lady. You'll work this out i haven't doubt.
This weekend though is a celebration of you and DH. Its not to do with greece, NHS or difficult sisters. This weekend is about the 2 of you and your love, friendship and support. 

Go enjoy the moment, the here&now xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi all,

Sorry - this will be another fleeting post from work (shhhhhh, don't tell!) 

I just wanted to say that Janie, I understand how easy it is to get sucked back into the world of IVF when you have spent so long working on moving on.  I am in the middle of my 10th cycle at the moment - am I insane? I never thought in a million years that I would end up doing 10 rounds of IVF, but somehow after each failure I have been sucked back in.  DH and I agreed that this would be our last, but deep, deep down I still thought that maybe we'd do more - maybe a doctor would miraculously figure out why it hasn't worked for us before, or a magical new treatment would be developed that will allow me to finally realise my dream.  

But now I know that isn't true - I know that this will be our last fresh cycle, because I just can't do this any more.  I know people always say that when they're going through tx, but for me I feel very definite about it this time.  We may do FETs if we have spare embies, but we'll see.

I have been to the clinic twice so far during this cycle and both times I've practically been in tears as I can't believe that I am still doing this s*** after so many years.  Yesterday when I went I didn't even care that I don't have a baby yet, I just knew that I couldn't go back to that clinic for any more appointments, scans, procedures or follow ups or listen to any more doctors tell me what they think my problem is and how they can fix it.  I don't believe a word that any of them say any more, so what is the point?  I can't sit in the waiting room with the other shiny, new IVFers that still have the hope I lost long ago and I can't sit and look at the photos of all the clinic's 'success stories' mocking me from the wall.  I actually started to get quite panicky towards the end of the appointment and just had to get out of there.  

So when it comes to getting sucked back into IVF, I understand - I think that I may have done more cycles than is good for my sanity.  But as much as I have been worn down by all of this, I know now that I can quit after this cycle without any second thoughts.  So you can and should do as many cycles as you need to be as at peace as possible with your decision to stop, if it comes to that.  In the meantime, try and enjoy your weekend away.  

I wonder how much of my panic about this cycle is because I really have reached my emotional limit and how much is because you all and the other GW have given me a glimpse that the other side is not quite as terrifying as I thought.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - thank you so much. I absolutely needed to hear those words just now. Made me have a little cry. In a good way. You're right. This is aboute and dh and I'm damn well going to appreciate him. On the ferry to jura right now. Just noticing how dh keeps checking his phone to see whether he still has a job. He needs my support right now. Time to get a grip. 

Waikiki, I can't tell you how much I hope that this works for you. I can't think of anything to say right now other than hang in there and I wish you all the strength and courage for getting through the next cfew weeks. I don't think you need me to wish you strength and courage though really as i think you have it in bucketloads already. One day at a time i guess.  

Gonna turn off now and focus on enjoying being just the two of us (and four paws of course) xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Janie - I hope you're having a wonderful weekend with your DH - it sounds to be exactly what you need, breath in that air and try to let go of trying to sort out everything all at the same time. You don't need to; it's ok to take a step back. 

Waikiki - my heart goes out to you. I feel the same going to my clinic (and on many of the threads here which is why I lurk on this one so much!) and I haven't had anywhere near as many cycles. Hang in there and know that we're here to support you through it.

Jen xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

Once again, thank you for your wonderful replies. Seriously, what would I do without this thread?!

I think you're right (of course!) that I'm jumping the gun again, and I just need to take one step at a time and compartmentalise (as my CBT man told me!). I don't even know whether any of our embies will survive yet, that alone may solve my dilemma! I think you're right ladies, I just need to take it slowly and see how I feel at each step of the process. Thank you for helping to make things clearer and rationalise it all.

Kat, I love your quote "FF reminds me of what I don't have, GW reminds me of what I can have" such a simple sentence but so very _very_ true. You're right that I am building a new network of childfree friends, and it does feel very safe. It's opened my eyes to a whole new world - one that seems ok (even good!) to live in. But yes, it does depend on who I'm around, and if I'm surrounded by mummies then obviously that's much harder to deal with and that's when I start to crumble again.

Jen, I think you're absolutely right. Considering a FET now after our mini break from tx (and after discovering GW) it does feel a bit destabilising, and I really don't relish the thought of being thrown back to square one. I'm so sorry to hear that your evening with friends didn't lift you in the way that you'd hoped  I hope the wine and chocolate helped...

Janie, sorry to hear that your plans aren't turning out to be as straightforward as you'd hoped. I really hope you can work something out - but after your weekend away, please spend this time for just you and DH.

Waikiki, I truly admire you for getting yourself through 10 cycles of IVF, you're an amazing lady! I liked your description of the waiting room with it's "shiny new IVFers that still have hope" I totally get what you mean. Luckily our clinic don't put their success stories up on the wall, but they do have photo albums laying around, I think I only picked those up and looked on my very first visit - but not since then!

Well, I think I've run out of brain power for now. I plan to have pizza and wine this eve and watch 'The Secret Life of Cats' that was on BBC2 last night, that'll make me smile I'm sure  Hope you all have a good eve/weekend ladies. Hugs to all (even those lurking....JBT??)  xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Totally agree Nosilab, we can always rely on Kat to sum up succintly how we feel: "FF reminds me of what I don't have, GW reminds me of what I can have".  I can't tell you how much more positive that sentence made me feel - thanks Kat.     I think I'm finally getting ready to give up on what I can't have and focus on what I can have - so much more positive that what I have been doing for the past 8 years.

Hope that you enjoy the Secret Life of Cats - is it sad to admit that I had been looking forward to watching it all week?!  I am already displaying a few alarming mad cat lady tendencies, so it's just my cup of tea.  My excuse is that my work is related to animals, and cats specifically, so I had to watch it for career development purposes!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Exactly Waikiki, I think GW reminds us that we can eventually feel in control again, I think IF has left us all feeling helpless and not in control of anything any more.

No, I don't think it's sad at all that you looked forward to the cat prog all week    Yep, if we had a bigger house and garden I reckon I'd try and talk DH into having more cats (we have 2).  Your job sounds interesting?  I'd love to work with animals.  Career development sounds like the perfect excuse to watch - it's all about research


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Think I'll have to watch secret lives of cats on catch-up! We have 2 and I'm currently looking after next doors 2 as well. Would love a dog as well, maybe now DH will be working more from home... Have a good weekend everyone, the sun is shining here and I'm off to Pilates now - always relaxes me


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

I finally watched it last night Jen, you should def try and watch it on catch-up   I'd really love a dog too!  I'm allergic to dogs but I know I can desensitise myself (I did with the cats!) so I'm not going to let that stop me.  I keep looking at dogs when we're out and about wondering what short we'll have (eventually....one day....).  I quite fancy a boarder terrier  

Just back from town having spent far too much money, oops!  Hope Pilates did the trick x


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ps: just Googled boarder terrier and found out they're hypoallergenic!! I want one even more now    Don't think the cats would be too impressed though!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - my boy is hypoallergenic too    Terriers are just oozing personality too and generally love cats .............. nothing is more fun than chasing cats up trees and planning on eating them for breakfast    . 


Jen - hope the sun is still shining over your way.


I can hear DH trying to negotiate with the dog to get him in the shower, and judging by the swearing I think the dog is winning this battle of wills.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Waikiki - i'm pretty sure you're not a vet, although I don't know why I think that, and the only other cat related job I can come up with a zookeeper for the big cat enclosure! On my last round of ivf I too was at the crying stage. I didn't care what the scans showed and just wanted to be in and out at quick as possible. DH didn't even come to ec as he was abroad (it was donor sperm) and we decided we had sacrificed enough already. He spent so long planning a meeting and we decided that was more important and ivf. Kind of a sign we were done I think. I hope this chapter is as smooth as possible for you xxx

Janie - I hope you had a fab weekend as the perfect family of 3  Peaceful west coast island I'm imagining?

Nosilab - I hope one day at a time thinking has lead to a great weekend. You can't plan tx at weekends when the clinics are shut. I was thinking of you on Friday when I met my friend for coffee. She was really upset and sobbing her heart out and I was struggling to console her. My pooch was with us and she bent down to love him and he was up like a shot for a huge cuddle  When she was done all her tears were gone. Mindfulness and getting yourself in the here&now come in surprising forms sometimes. I too struggle to focus on it for long enough sometimes. In hospital I was given a stress ball with spikes on it and find that helped loads when I squeezed it hard  ............ as did throwing it at psych nurses but that's a whole other story ;-)

Hi Jen - I hope you felt cleansed after Pilates?

JBT xxx

We have spent the entire weekend working in the garden and I really really enjoyed it. The doing stuff together but still having our own projects was really lovely. And we live on the side of a steep rock slope so digging holes wasn't possible and I really got into my role as chief bossy boots ;-) We have 24 hours daylight now which is great except everything grows so quick. Honestly, I can almost see the weeds growing as I sit in the sun with my vino now. 

Got to take pooch out AGAIN now. Apparently going swimming earlier doesn't count as a walk so he is still owed one. Easier to cave in than negotiate ;-)

Katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

I LOVE border terriers, they are so adorable - my friend has one and I want to dognap him whenever I see him.  I'm usually firmly in the cat camp in the cat vs dog debate, but something about their little furry faces melts my heart!

Kat, you're right I'm not a vet although I spend a lot of time hanging out with them as I work in marketing for a pet products company.  I think being a zookeeper sounds much more fun though!!

Your weekend of gardening sounds lovely, I had planned a day in the garden yesterday but only managed a couple of hours before the heavens opened.  One of the new immune drugs I'm on also seems to have disagreed with me and I've had severe shoulder pain for the past few days which makes digging an impossibility at the moment.  So I'm just sitting here looking at the weeds in frustration as I type.

JBT - where are you hun?  I hope you're OK and I'm sending you lots of    .  Tried a new rhubarb and almond tart recipe earlier on - delicious!  

Enjoy the rest of your weekends ladies.  No Sunday night blues for me this week as I'm off for a spa day with two friends tomorrow which I'm looking forward to - bring on the hot stone massage!

 waikiki


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, what type of terrier is your pooch? I think I've asked that before but can't remember the answer? I bet they _do_ love chasing cats   Did your DH manage to get your boy showered in the end?! I can quite believe that your sweet boy stopped your friends tears, animals just seem to have that knack don't they, I really do believe in the whole animal therapy thing, it works for me! And as you say, helps with the mindfulness stuff too, bringing us back to the here & now. I love the sound of the stress ball with spikes! Especially for throwing at people lol!  Must Google them! Your weekend of gardening sounds absolutely wonderful! I always really love being in the garden, and love it when DH and I are out there together doing our own little projects. Bit wet here at the mo, so gardening is on hold for the time being sadly, you wouldn't think it was nearly mid summers day!

Waikiki, I used to be firmly in the cat camp too (and still adore cats) and never thought I'd ever want a dog, but I'm finding myself wanting a dog more and more, not sure why - is it all part of the surrogate baby thing - filling the void? I don't know, probably to some extent but I'm also just a big softy and love being around animals, they make me happy  Border terriers melt my heart too, a few weeks ago I saw someone walking along the canal tow path with the tiniest tiniest Border terrier puppy...OMG!! My heart melted! He was the cutest little thing I'd ever seen! I coo'd over him more than I ever have over a baby (does that tell me something?!  )

Off to watch a film, drink wine and eat crisps with DH! Have a good eve everyone  xxx

PS the spa day sound bloomin' amazing! Enjoy! xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hello everyone.... me back again!

Things have been tricky for me too - I haven't been posting much as I have found life pretty overwhelming.  New job isn't really working out - I'm surviving, but it's never a good sign when I am just 'surviving'.  Trying (as indeed I'm sure we all are) to be kind to myself, but sometimes (in fact most of the time) I just lose patience with myself!!

Today was hard.  Father's day.  ** full of pictures of kids and happy Dads.  I was over at my in-laws, where, surprisingly, my 9 year old nephew gave me the third degree about not having kids!!! OMG...  It started with an initial 'Do you ever have stomach ache or feel anything in your tummy?' to which I said 'No', to which he said 'Hmm... that's probably why you haven't had kids yet if you can't feel anything'.  I was taken aback but went into standard issue 'Well, these things happen' to which he said 'But I KNOW you REALLY want them'.  I made a joke about how I had him instead to spoil and thankfully we got off the subject.  He followed this up about half an hour later by telling me I had 'Man hair on my chin' - thanks nephew... really needed that - a reminder about PCOS and the hideous hair on my chin... FABULOUS!!!  Then no further mention thank god - but not a good day.  Need to be more careful as he has obviously picked up stuff either directly from my sister in law, or from hearing me or other people discussing our plight.  But yes, pretty unbearable as things go.

I know I have to remember my nephew is only 9 years of age and is just being a boy, but it was difficult to take.

In other news, no new house progress, being chucked out of rental property at start of August and totally exhausted.  Feel like everything is back to the start - in that I was fooling myself I could come to terms with everything so quick and be 'so over IF'.  As if - no pun intended.

I still have my sense of humour, but I admit I've been really worried about myself the past 2 weeks in particular.  But AF is back today, so hoping my raging hormones get better soon.  And with the job, I'm starting my escape plan tomorrow - at least, a sideways shift.

Sorry about the me post - I will do some personals later this week....

Love to you all - remember you are courageous and strong after all we have been through (should tell myself this more often)!

Mrs P xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh MrsP big hugs coming your way. You too are courageous and strong but there is a limit to what we can all handle. The wrong job or not finding a place to live is ok, but both together is too much for anyone. And I always find that when things are tough, that's when IF rears its ugly head and hurts all over again. When we are low we are probably all guilty at times of picking up a big sticks and beating ourselves even more ........ or that could just be me ;-) I wish you hadn't needed to come back but I'm glad you have done when you needed to. 'Moving on' is never going to be up up up all the way and you've made huge progress so a few steps backwards is ok and not going to undo all your good work. As for you nephew, he is only 9 but I think sometimes the innocence of children's thoughts is more painful than adults. 'If his innocence can lead him to say that then imagine what an adult thinks'. But, it was just a conversation with a child and who knows where he got it from and being a boy he has no doubt forgotten it already. Hang in there xxx

Nosilab - mine is a wheaten terrier so much bigger than a border terrier although he is only a wee one and more the size of the girl than a boy. Although in his eyes he is the biggest strongest and bestest dog in the world. Border terriers are fab too. I had friends who had one and he was such a dude on all our dive weekends. I won't tell you the tales if destruction from when he was a puppy though ;-) 

Waikiki - I hope the drugs are doing their thing though even if you feel rubbish xxx Think JBox and VW - they were both into double figures. Kitty and Winegum were heading that way too. Who knows what can happen. 

Not a cloud in the sky here ..... shame I'm on my way to work!
Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just dropping in to say morning to you all. I've had a very chilled weekend, Pilates, visited a friend, pottered in the garden etc. Moments of calm punctuated by moments of sadness and loneliness. DH is back today after being away for 12 days (with a one night stop over at home last week). I really need him to be the loving kind husband, not the grumpy, impatient one so we'll see which version arrives.

MrsP - I'm really sorry to hear things aren't working out the way you'd hoped (the way we'd all hoped for you). Our work environment can have such a massive impact on how we feel - let's face it we spend so much of our lives there. Is there any chance this is still a settling in period for you? I know it took me the best part of a year to feel comfortable in my job (which is probably why, 14 years later, I haven't moved again!). Saying that, there's no harm looking for other options - you must do what feels right  for you. The added pressure of figuring out where you'll live takes it to another level. I agree with Kat - when other pressures build up it can expose our vulnerabilities. It doesn't negate the hard work you've put in and doesn't mean you can't feel that positivity again. AF can be the final straw, I know I can often look back at moments of real doom and realise that AF was coming at me like a freight train (actually, that could partly account for my current mood....)

Nosilab - how are you doing? Are you still feeling okay with the idea of just taking things a step at a time for now? It's hard not to get drawn into going over and over all the options and what they might mean, how they might turn out, how that might make you feel etc etc. Only problem with that is there are a bucketload of 'if's' and 'maybe's' in there and however much we try and figure it out there's no crystal ball. It just ends up being an exhausting mental race - can my head get to the end point first so it can work on dealing with it before it actually happens? I guess that's where Mindfulness does help, refocussing back on the things we do have some control over - the here and now and how we respond to that.

As for the dog thing - as much as I love cats (and I really do, our two are gentle, funny, slightly crazy cats) I guess they don't always give the unconditional love of a dog. Yes my cats come for cuddles, and not just when they want feeding, but it's very much on their terms. One of our cat loves our neighbours dog, they have a black lab and the two of them are often stretched out on the decking sunning themselves, so I have some hope a dog would pass the cat-test...

Waikiki - have a lovely, lovely day. A spa day sounds to be just what you need right now  

Kat - 24 hour daylight, wow! Do you find it messes with your sleep patterns at all? I can imagine it would be easy to loose track of time without the visual cue of it going dark... I can see why you would need to keep so busy in the garden, the weeds must love it!

Hugs to everyone else. JBT - I hope we see you back soon, you are missed. xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Dogs rock! Cats poo in the veg patch ;-)

I find I don't need as much sleep when it's light all of the time which is lucky since yep, we do forget to go to bed occasionally. Most often though, we forget to eat because the deck is in full sun until 10pm (from 10am). Norwegian dinner time is 4pm so we really are the whacky neighbours lighting the BBQ and bedtime lol.

I hope you get the nice DH tonight Jen. If its the mean version then we can only assume that the nice version of my DH has kidnapped yours. My nice DH left sometime in the night and left the grumpy one that shouts a lot :-(


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

It's true, cats do poo in the veggie patch, ours think I dig our raised beds just for their pleasure! I'm not sure what version of DH I've got back. He's busy unpacking all his clobber whilst listening to some hideous heavy music. This is the same man who usually loves a bit of John Denver! I'm beginning to fear a mid-life crisis might be looming...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Ouch, in my extensive experience (DH keeps deciding he is going to live longer in order to keep having midlife crises) a midlife crisis costs money, and lots of it.

His latest was an Audi TT, although I seem to have successfully vetoed that. Then again he isn't adverse to the odd sneaky purchase!

Good luck, you're going to need it I suspect. The music is a baaaad sign ;-)


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Me again! I need a rant. Sometimes my husband is such an @rse :-( I'm pretty sure i love him although sometimes i Wonder if i'm just grateful to him. I wonder that most when he is being horrid. Today he started a row because I forget stuff 'all the time' because I don't write it down. This all started tonight because I forgot to tick treat the dog on Sunday night and only remembered tonight - yep a whole 48 hours later than the arbatory date I had chosen. I was completely calm despite him swearing at me which is my tears switch. I suggested he put things in perspective, some of my 'faults' being more important than others. I also suggested that mr perfect wrote down where he put stuff so I would spend less of my life looking for his keys etc. I don't actually forget more stuff than anyone else really, and not more than DH for sure, it's just it's no big deal to me if he forgets something but apparently its a real issue I have to address in myself. Anyway, this went on and he got desperate to find something to row about and tried picking other faults but I just wasn't in the mood. Then, when I said its not fair to have one rule for him and one for me, he came out with a corker. 'Well I'm not the one who has been in hospital'. Ouch :-(

I cuddled my pooch which stopped my tears but I'm so hurt. I feel he is going to hold it against me forever. I was discharged 16 months ago!! I don't think I am ever going to be good enough for him any longer and every time I make a mistake somewhere its going to be because I was in hospital.

I'm so so tired and working way too hard and feeling the pressure at work and then when I come home I have to pretend not to be tired because that is taken as a fault in my makeup too. I'm drowning. I failed to turn up to the shrink yesterday because I was just too overwhelmed and now I'm in trouble there too, as well as with the benefits agency because I haven't sent the right form in. Obviously I can't tell DH because that's more minus points for me.

He is away all next week and I'm so looking forward to the peace. But thinking that worries me, surely if I really was the good wife I try to be then I would dread him going away :-(

Sorry for bring so maudlin, I probably just need sleep.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Rant away Kat, I feel quite angry on your behalf - I hope that's ok. This sounds to be far more about your DH's own [email protected]p, either because he's stressed about something else and is taking the easy option by taking it out on you (hmmm, where do I recognise that behaviour from) or because he's on high alert for signs that you're heading down the same path as you have before. Problem with that is he's seeing in what sounds like normal, human behaviour. We all forget, or have days where we can't be bothered and it isn't fair to throw that in your face.

I know our histories are a bit different but I too sometimes feel held to ransom over things from the past, and how difficult things have been as a result. Whilst I appreciate that it can be tough for our DH's (and I've spent hours beating myself up over that) it's not something any of us chose and we do the best we can. Every now and then I've been able to sit DH down and tell him that. That I do the best I can, that every down day does not mean I'm cracking up, that being tired doesn't mean I'm spiralling and that him judging me and putting pressure on me is counter productive. That being told that it's ok, and that he is there for me can give the biggest boost in the world and make life a whole lot easier. That's what you need, not a misplaced guilt trip.

Don't beat yourself up about looking forward to a bit of space next week. I do that all the time. I know I love my DH but sometimes he just gets things badly wrong and then it feels easier not to have to deal with him. Usually the time apart lets the dust settle a little and certainly takes the pressure off trying to be 'perfect'. I do sometimes wonder if DH spends as much time and energy trying to be the perfect husband as I do trying to be the perfect wife. Actually, scratch that, I know he doesn't...

Not going to see the shrink is not a failure Kat. I've bailed on appointments in the past before and whilst it might be the opposite of what you actually need, it's just self-protection. You're feeling overwhelmed and therapy is tough work. Do you have an appointment next week? Sometimes it's ok to jut go along and say you're struggling and can't face talking you know?

You make mistakes because you are human, not because you've spent time in hospital. I almost called the police last week because I thought someone had stolen my car. I'd driven in to work and it was only after catching the metro home, walking the 10 mins back to my house then fumbling in my bag for my house keys so I could call them and finding my car keys there that I remembered. Just to make matters worse my house keys were still on my desk at work. We all forget sometimes.

This is one of those times I wish you were down the road and not a plane ride away...

Big hugs


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Jen. I think I'm a bit over sensitive at the moment too which isn't helping.
Shrink tomorrow.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - Really sorry to hear that you're not getting the support you need - in fact, the opposite. I'm glad Jen has found some solid words because I'm afraid I feel a bit useless just now as so wrapped in my own self-obsession. But I don't think there is anything at all wrong with being glad that DH is going away for a while. I think that is pretty healthy - especially when you're obviously shattered from everything and only just hanging in there.  I never dread DH going away and I don't think I'm a bad wife so take that off your list of worries at least.  I hope DH has had a word with himself and apologised. Pulling that line was a pretty cheap shot.   I hope you get through your session tomorrow OK. Thank god for pooch and his reliable affections. xxx

Jen, I hope all going well with your DH back in the camp. Sorry to hear that his initial enthusiasm for more treatment wained. I just don't think our DH's are locked up in the same journey that we are. If my DH knew just what proportion of my waking hours I spent thinking about this decision he would simply not believe it. He is currently avoiding the topic at all costs in the hope that it will simply go away. It's a well played-out tactic.

Waikiki - I would love a job with animals too! Do you actually get to spend much time with them. Thinking of you for all the obvious reasons... xxx

Mrs P - really sorry to hear it's not been so rosy for you of late - but hell, you have a lot on your plate. I echo what the other girls have said. And little boys can be hideous. One of my friends kids has made similar remarks to me and I found everyone else's embarrasment even more challenging. I guess we just have to let it go and try not to let it get to us. Easier said than done sometimes, especially when all you want is an unchallenging evening.

Nosilab - any decisions yet? Can you decide for me while you are at it? 

We had a truly lovely weekend. A real reminder of how lovely our life could be. We sat and watched the boats in the harbour and talked about buying a cheap boat and learning to sail together (we're talking something that's a fraction of the cost of a round of treatment so don't be thinking of any gin palaces!). But I'm still completely torn over my decision about somehow trying to negotiate my Sister to be able to do it. The decision seems harder to make than ever. I'm not terrified by the prospect of no children anymore. But that doesn't mean that I don't want them. I just don't know what I feel anymore and am swinging quite dramatically from one side to the other. There isn't really anything new to add. Same old same old. Maybe the compromise would be just to wait and only do our NHS round but that doesn't work in my head. Either I want a baby or I don't. If I think my best shot is Greece and I have the money and I want that baby then I should take this chance right now? The thought of not going ahead because of my sister is unbearable. She encapsulates everything that I can't stand about the smug- mummy club.  I could probably do with having a big rant about why this is just so incredibly awful but I have a gazillion things I have to do right now. Someone said something about feeling like they were drowning....


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

PS - dogs over cats every time (we have both)... but you ladies have the wrong 'border'... border collies are where it's at!

PPS - must go seek out the secret life of cats.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thinking of you Janie - tough times I know.
Does your DH still have his job?


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat - yes he does - we found out yesterday... big sigh of relief all round. I guess at least one part of the jigsaw is in it's place. xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

I've got a degree in over-sensitivity Kat, it makes it so much harder to see things objectively, at least our own situations. I don't think you were being over-sensitive here though, it was a deeply hurtful thing to say. I guess I was trying to add context, certainly not trying to say you had misread or anything. Hope that makes sense, a long day here... Anyway, I'm glad you have a session tomorrow, I really hope it's one that brings you some peace.

Janie - it does sound like a really lovely weekend   Sometimes enjoying life and realising that life without children can be OK stirs up a level of panic for me. Maybe a feeling that I'm somehow giving up or letting go of something before I'm ready to. A frustrating and often painful contrast. I can see how difficult the situation with your sister is, it sounds like a difficult relationship, will delaying your plans really make it better, will going ahead really make it worse? Possibly in the short term but do you maybe need to think long term here... No easy answers I know, my head is going round in crazy-making circles too.

Well, it's a gorgeous evening here. I'm waiting for DH to get home from Leeds so I'm thinking a stroll to the sea front might be in order.  x


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

PS - great news on the job front, one less pressure for now


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

The irony - turns out my DH is also a first class @rse. Apparently me being upset about another friend telling me she's pregnant (this is one of the 3 friend's I'm due to see next weekend) means I'm broken (yes, he actually said that). It also means he can't live this way anymore. Whatever that means. Despite how tough the past few weeks have been I've worked hard to keep things on an even keel at home. Yes I cried after the miscarriage, but after the first couple of weeks I did that in private and tried to make sure that there was balance in our lives, I went out, I socialised even when it was the last thing I wanted to do.

I'm so angry and upset. He is so wrong, I'm not broken and he needs to get a grip if he thinks a few tears mean I am. 

I really wish I had a bolt-hole right now, I really don't want to be in his company. I've a feeling there'll be an apology on it's way but having been here so many times it's starting to sound more than a little empty.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat and Jen    I'm so so sorry to hear what a horrible time you're both having with your DHs.  I don't know what to say to comfort or reassure but I wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you both and sending big hugs    I'm sure this is just a 'blip' and that all the stress is affecting you all in different ways (although that's still no excuse for the hurtful comments though)  I hope things smooth out for you both very soon AND that you both get apologies! 

MrsP, so sorry to hear that things aren't working out with your new job, that must be really disappointing for you  

Jen and Janie, thanks for asking but still no firm decisions as yet - my head is still spinning with it all!    DH and I have agreed to talk about it all again this weekend, but I already know what his preference will be!  No crystal ball needed for that one!  We'll see....

Hi to all xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Big hugs Kat and Jen   

My DH has said some truly horrendous things to me over the years of our IF and I'm sure if told anyone else about some of them they would be shocked beyond belief.  It's hard enough to deal with our situation without the person who is supposed to be closest to us saying hurtful things too.  

Kat - it sounds as if your DH just was in the mood for a fight and picked a fairly trivial issue to argue about as an outlet for the anger and frustration he was feeling about something else.  My DH does this a lot - it's not justified and extremely upsetting when it happens.  He also knows exactly which buttons to press to upset me the most and it's at times like that that I wonder why I ever married him.  You did the right thing to stay calm and not engage in the argument, no matter how hard that is.  I have started to use this tactic too and once he has had time to calm down, he generally comes to me of his own accord and apologises and tells me the real reason why he was so upset.  Usually it is related to the IF but when he is calm he can rationalise that our situation is not MY fault, but that he took it out on me because I was the only one he could take it out on.

Jen - DH sometimes finds my reaction to pg announcements hard to deal with and especially the fact that I won't see certain friends when they are pregnant.  He practically forced me to go to counselling to 'sort my head out' and was disappointed when it didn't really make any difference.  He has told me when he gets angry with me over this it's because he hates to see me so sad and upset when he is unable to fix it for me, that nothing he does can make a difference.  As much as our DH's are on this journey with us, it doesn't affect them in the way that it does us and I think that only another woman in our position can truly understand how awful a pg announcement is - all the feelings of 'why not me' and 'why am I failure' etc that start circling around our heads.  But this is just one part of who we are, we are much stronger than that.  It seems a bit of a paradox that on the one hand our DH's want us to be unaffected by other peoples' pregnancies, yet expect that we will be broken by them - actually the reality is somewhere in between.  We've all had days when we've felt at rock bottom, but we've always picked ourselves up and kept going - surely after we've done that so many times they should give us a bit more credit than simply labelling us as broken!

I really hope that your DH's have now calmed down and given you both the heartfelt apologies that you deserve. 

Janie - thanks for your thoughts and I'm so happy that your DH's job is secure, what a weight that must be off your mind.  I don't get as much time to spend with animals as I would like, unless you count the two filthy but lovable farm dogs that live on the farm next to our office.  They have discovered that we are soft touches so regularly let themselves into the office to beg food and attention!

Mrs P - Ouch on the comments made by your nephew!  One of my nieces used to ask me continuously when we would have a baby as she doesn't have any cousins.  I feel bad for her and would love to have obliged - she very abruptly stopped asking me, so I'm guessing my SIL had a quiet word.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm ok now. The comment from DH was never mentioned again and he didn't feel the need to apologise and to be to honest I just don't have the energy to raise the issue again. We are away at the cabin and all is fine and dandy between us although I had a horridly tough session with the shrink and I'm too tired to muster more words tonight. I really hope your DH is home now Jen and you are able to work through this together over the weekend.



Thinking of you all and wishing for peaceful and happy weekends for all of you (and for a productive talk with your DH nosilab) 
Katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just checking in with you lovely ladies...

Waikiki - thank you for your reply, I think you're right. For DH it's all about extremes - either the pressure to be fine, or the expectation that I will fall apart. Neither is fair, or accurate. It really helps to know I'm not alone with facing that additional challenge, though obviously I wish it wasn't the case that so many of us face it! How are things with you?

Things are calmer at home again. I sent DH an email as I didn't feel able to go over the same old territory again. I'd posted on GW about it (as some of you know!) and the replies really helped. I did get an apology but I feel a bit wary - we've been here so many times before. One piece of advice that came from GW which I'm trying to hold onto is to let go of my expectations of DH, he deals with things differently and just as I can't shrug it off and simply get on with life, he can't immerse himself in it. It still hurts but maybe it will allow us to move on a little.

I know some of us have kind of decamped to GW and I fully understand that. It feels to be less about IF and more about living life and supporting one another through childlessness. But I also know that some of us are still facing tough decisions and lots of uncertainties, I guess I'm just saying that wherever we all are in this I hope we keep this going here too. One thing I miss with GW is the more closeness I feel to you all here! 

I guess I'm just wondering how everyone is? Nosilab - did you get any further this weekend with your DH? Janie - are you any closer to knowing what you want to do, or how to handle the very difficult situation with your sister? JBT - I'm worried by your absence and hope we hear from you soon. Kat - as always I'm thinking of you, especially as this coming weekend is one where we both face the challenge of baby visiting (mine now includes pregnant friend and friend who had 2 embryos transferred this week -  )

Hugs to everyone, the regulars and the lurkers  

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I've not left FF in favour of GW, I'm just really busy in stressed out. I like to do long rambling soul searching posts on here but I've just not had the time ....... not and been sober as well ;-) Tomorrow is my sick day so hopefully I'll have some time. Single parent to my pooch all this week and I'm whacked already!
Love katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Understood Kat   - work's been busy lately and I've had less chance to come here too. It's easy to post a quick reply on GW and feel a connection there, but you're right, here tends to involve a bit more soul-searching and that takes time and energy. How is work for you at the minute? Maybe you can offload some of that stress here?

I'm just back from a morning of Segwaying (a belated birthday present from friends for DH's 40th). Great fun and certainly a break from the daily routine. DH ended up on the deck a couple of times; fortunately no broken bones though he is walking a bit strangely now! It was good to just go and have fun. 

I'm feeling weirdly calm about this coming weekend of being around a new-born, a pregnant friend and mid-IVF-er. I've banned myself from ** as the constant updates from friend's with kids just wasn't a healthy environment for me. I think having a melt-down last week and being able to be honest with the pregnant friend helped, she was so understanding and kind of gave me permission to not cope with it all. I also took the tough decision to go back on AD's. I have a wonderful GP who has been very supportive and for the past few weeks I've seen her regularly. She suggested medication a couple of weeks ago but didn't push it - it's not something I wanted to do but I  came to recognise that I really did need some extra help. I haven't told anyone, including DH - I just can't get past the stigma I feel comes with it and DH was always uneasy about me being on them in the past. I hope it's ok to share here. 

Anyway, that's where I'm at. Therapy in the morning then a day off on Friday to drive down to Lancashire (assuming my car is fixed, it's in the garage with a gear problem - just what we need, another big bill!).

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I´ll give a long post a whirl but I´m low on energy reserves at the mo.

Nosilab - how did it go with DH over the weekend? Did you make progress in where to go next?

JBT - are you at your mums? I hope so and I hope you are having a well deserved fab time over there 

Waikiki - you OK? I think I´m my own worst enemy sometimes when it comes to DH. When he is fixing for a fight I do usually get an apology hours later once he has calmed down, but sometimes that just annoys me even more because I know the argument is pointless because he is just seeing red and can´t see his is wrong until the red has faded. When I point all this out to him in mid row obviously he gets even more annoyed and so it goes on  . Its just hard for me to understand because I just don´t have a temper at all. On the plus side though, I guess we knew about our other halves when we married them as opposed to my colleague who has only just discovered that his girlfriend and mother of his baby has a temper ........ thats what you get for getting someone up the duff before you even know them properly! I know you don´t want to talk tx on here for obvious reasons, but I hope its going OK and you are coping alright?

MrsP - where´d you go? I hope you come back again if you need us 

Jen - The stigma of ADs gets to me too. People just don´t understand them. My most hated comment is ´I just wouldn´t want to not feel myself´, as if they actually take over your personality and turn you into somebody else. Flippin´ heck if that was the case and we could take a pill to be somebody else, everyone would be doing it  I have no choice whether I take them, actually I could stop I guess, but I started them when there was no other option. They have saved my life for sure and I guess I´ve been on them for 2 years now and I have no plans to stop yet. I am most definitely still me, but I´m the me that can talk to my shrink without a panic attack (I can assure you passing out on the floor due to panic makes counselling tricky  ) and I´m the me that can rationalise and live. Do tell DH though, you know he has to know deep down. I can tell him all he needs to know to feel safe about them (ironically its my job). Tell him he´ll get the old Jen back and that should help. I had to google segwaying and its so cool. Where did you do it? I would be no doubt joining your DH on the floor at some point though.

Janie - have you stopped making yourself dizzy with decision making yet? I hope you have managed to separate your feelings for your sister and your feelings about doing another round of tx. It must be so hard when things get to mixed up together 

Wow, I managed a big post  . I´m not really sure what to say about me right now as most of it is unrelated to IF ......... I think  . I had an incredibly tough session with the shrink last week because we headed into territory thats way harder for me than IF. DH and I then headed straight to the mountains and I was so mixed up after my appt that I decided to just bury it and enjoy my time away. We went to our cabin and then headed up to another cabin afterwards that we don´t go to much in summer so I just wanted to have fun. I did enjoy it, very much in fact, and burying stuff wasn´t hard at all. Anyway, DH then went away on Monday morning and I crashed badly. Work is way too stressful and on paper I have 4.5 months project work to do in 5 months - fine you might think except that is pure project work and no reading email or any admin, and I know of at least another 3 weeks project work I´m down for, it also doesn´t allow for me to go on holiday, b00dy hell, it doesn´t even give me time to pee FFS. Oh and one small point that everybody seems to be ignoring - I ONLY WORK 50% - if I shout somebody might hear me  . On top of work I am struggling with the counselling topics at the moment because they are so painful and so exhausting. I decided I couldn´t go to visit my friend with the baby so I´m now wracked with guilt about that.

Ah well, onwards and upwards,
Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm still here!

I had a bit of a 'pit of despair' weekend just gone.  All very bleak and black - like nothing I've felt before.  Huge swirling black clouds.  Drinking my sorrows away didn't work either.... but it did make me realise I'm worrying myself silly over everything and this has to stop.  Trying to accept all the difficulties I'm having in life has been a good first step.  The second was to start on some 'good mood' st johns wort and then, after reading about vit B12 deficiency, got myself some B12 tabs.  This might be related to the Metformin I've been taking.  This has made me start to feel 'normal' again - whatever that is!!

I feel terrible that people have been going through some bad times - you ladies are all so good to me and I want to be here for people much more.  I just feel that I need to get myself back on track and I don't want to bring anyone down in the meantime.  But then, sometimes the pain and frustration is unbearable and I need to get it out and speak to people who understand.  I feel I've been very dependent on DH of late.  I'm usually quite an independent person so it feels quite weird.  I need to catch up with the posts really too - you miss a few weeks and so much has happened.

Anyway, the very least I can do is a big shout out hello and thanks to Kat, Jen, Janie, JBT, Walkiki and Nosilab.  You are all fabulous - never forget that xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Ladies

Jen - was lovely to read your comment a couple of days ago about this thread. I've been up to my eyes in interviews etc up until yesterday so not had a chance to post anything but really just wanted to say that I totally share your feeling of closeness on this thread. I dip into GW and think it's fantastic when I need a wee boost of positivity and inspiration but just as with life... I'm more comfortable with a smaller group. I guess FF felt a bit like that before I met you girls so that could change but I was just relieved to hear that you weren't planning on disappearing on me!

Sounds like we've all been fighting our own personal battles. Jen - well done you for starting the ADs again - I think it's really brave to know when we need a bit of extra support - even if it's really not what we want. Am just sorry to hear that you feel you need to hide it from your DH. I'm not sure if it's OK to say this but I'm actually enraged about him saying you are broken for being upset about a pregnancy announcement. Of course you feel upset... you have every right to.. you have been through so much and just had a miscarriage. It's the kind of comment I might expect from someone who hasn't been through any of this... (or from my sister... ). I guess I can understand the frustration that this just goes on and on and at some point life has to go back to normal. But that's why it's such a feckin' nightmare. Because sadly for us, it does just go on and on. I guess it's why I treasure certain friendships where they just seem to understand that this grief has no timeline... I try to point out to people that as much as my being AWOL may be frustrating / upsetting for them... at least they aren't living it. I don't know, my DH can be pretty unsociable and so my not wanting to see certain people doesn't bother him that much but he is very good friends with the husband of my friend who recently said they were 'trying' and I can see him losing patience with me when I can't handle seeing her through her pregnancy / early years. He says it's not the case but I can see it coming. I don't know, I hate to just fall back on banal comments about men and women being different but sadly I think there is just so much truth in it. They are just different. I feel added frustration that on top of your own pain you have the extra effort of trying to appear OK. It's OK not to be OK just now Jen.   . I hope I don't come across as thinking your DH is an a*se because that's not the case, I just want you to know that I understand your frustration. I have to say that the stigma around ADs really does baffle me - I just don't understand it. I don't mean I don't understand how you feel, just that I don't understand society at large. I'm sorry you're still having such a tough time... but again... I'm not surprised because events are still so recent and as we all know so well, it takes a long time to recover. I'm truly in awe that you are feeling so OK about upcoming visits with babies. You are a very strong lady. I hope I get to meet you in person some time.

Kat - sounds like you're getting a bit backed into a corner with work and I can almost visualise you struggling to keep your head above water. I guess just as I said to Jen, recoveries take as long as they take and your work are just going to have to accept this - even if they don't understand. It sounds clear to me that this is just too much for you right now and you need to say something sooner rather than later else this is just going to spiral. Who is supposed to look out for your wellbeing at work? Because I think you need to speak to them and get some space here. I know this is often way easier said than done - I do really understand that and I also know that in the kind of work you do, this sort of pressure is pretty commonplace. But you know, you're on a path of recovery and this isn't going to help. It's it possible to somehow try and see this off at the pass? Or if it really can't be adjusted then can you work out some strategies for dealing with it? I feel like I am giving a typical 'boy response' here of trying to solve the problem when maybe what you just need is a big  . Hopefully that goes without saying.     Am glad you have some 1:1 time with pooch though but the K9s take up quite a lot of time when you have sole care.. sheesh, I often think about this when I think about having a baby... maybe a dog is a happy medium!

Waikiki - I hope you're hanging in there... definitely thinking of you just now xxxxx

Nosilab... dare I ask... how did the 'talk' go?

MrsP - really sorry to hear you have hit such a bad patch. I think it's totally fine to come and go from this thread and I think what's so lovely is that you shouldn't have to feel under any pressure to comment when it's not the right time - life is complicated - but I get the impression that everyone on this thread understands that and it's a relief to know that there isn't any pressure to post when we simply don't have time or it's just not right for us.  Sounds like you've taken some positive steps to try and get your balance back so hopefully that will help a bit. I think ups and downs are pretty normal and probably good to remember that you were feeling so great until fairly recently. Perhaps if things had gone better with work then you might have held onto that a bit more. I know from my own life at the moment that if we're trying to walk away from treatment etc and move on childfree then we need to be cut some slack on that path... but life has a funny way of not helping us out...

JBT - we're all still thinking of you and hoping you're OK.   

The last couple of weeks have been a bit crazy for me. I had my uni interview on Monday which went really well but I also had a job interview yesterday. Only had a week to prepare for that but that week was really busy with work, I was away for the weekend to a 50th birthday party and all the various volunteering things I've been trying to get involved with for ages suddenly just kicked off exactly when I didn't need it. PLUS, I was completely distracted over my greece IVF versus my sister decision and felt like I needed to sort that before I could concentrate. In the end a very good friend helped me to 'park' that and focus on my interview. Have had a very intense couple of days but my interview and presentation went brilliantly yesterday... unfortunately I didn't get the job... went to someone who already had direct experience so I could never have beaten them but I was told I was a close second. Has been a bit of a confidence boost that was badly needed so I'm glad I went through the process. Mainly just feels good to have a bit of time to catch up with everything else. Sank a whole bottle of wine last night so not helping my progress today!

So that is one less decision to make anyway! As for the IVF, I don't know. I have had a long chat with the clinic in Greece and worked out possible dates and it really will clash badly with my Sister's visit. It's a horrible added complication. The way my Sister treats me is off the scale - at best it is with disdain. The visit is going to be really stressful regardless. She has no compassion for what I have been through. We tried to sort things out a bit between us last year. In a moment of trust I was trying to tell her how hard I found it dealing with a girl at work who had just had a miscarriage (but already had 2 healthy kids and I have watched both her pregnancies and covered both her maternity leaves whilst on my own sorry journey). I actually have a pretty good relationship with this colleague as she's been really careful of my feelings BUT it was still quite hard to have to listen to her sadness over her miscarriage given the bigger picture. Anyway, my Sister just waded in with her all her own sadness (same thing, she has two lovely kids and had a miscarriage after that) and gave me a really descriptive story about how in her heart she has three children and told me the name of the 'third child' and that I was basically selfish for not being too sympathetic to this kind of pain. WTF? I mean it wasn't even as though I was being really hard on this girl, I was just suggesting that perhaps as someone with NO children and three failed IVFs behind me, it was quite hard for me to hear. In actual fact, I was pretty supportive at the time - it just hurt. Anyway, we have barely spoken over the last year and the last time we spoke she ended up screaming all sorts of hideous stuff down the phone. I know she clearly has all her own issues and I totally recognise that part of the reason that she is so angry with me is that she sees me as a failed Auntie but I'm tired of it all. The only communications I get from her are angry emails barking instructions at me. Hell, I could write pages about it but the point is, I'm having to be really careful about how I consider this in my decision. I think a big part of me is so determined that I won't let the clash affect my chances that it's almost making me more determined to go ahead. If I do go ahead then it means I will also miss my Dad's 80th birthday but we've spoken about that and he has been really supportive. I don't know that I can cope with having to go to his party and watch my Sister swan around accepting all the fuss over her kids and being the star attraction knowing that over the last 12 months I've singlehandedly packed up our family home, moved my Dad into sheltered accomodation, sorted out all his benefits etc etc. But she has bore the grandchildren so that's that. Bitter? Moi?

The fact is though I have a free round in October - is Greece being 'the answer' so much that I'm willing to blow such a big part of our savings that I will so desperately need if I want to retrain in January? I really am just coming up for air so I have by no means 100% decided. DH and I need to sit down over the next couple of days and talk about all sorts of things. I suppose at least, for now, we have one less decision to make!

Right, I'd better get on. Thinking of you all as always. This thread is hugely important to me. I really love dipping into GW but for now it serves a slightly different purpose for me. I hope nobody feels any pressure to write on here but I think it's nice to know that we're all lurking. Please know that if I don't respond for a week, it doesn't mean I'm not thinking of you all.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

First of all, this post is very much 'give and take' and we give when we can and take when we need. I think we all understand that sometimes we just don't have anything to give and just really need to come and offload and get support from friends who understand and the only person who feels bad about it is ourselves. So MrsP, we are all good to each other but we can only manage that if we give ourselves the tlc and space we need too. Having said that, hearing your sadness doesn't drag us down too so if you do want to offload you'll not be dragging us under the black cloud with you, we'll be just outside it with a huge umbrella for you    .

Janie - I feel I want to tell you about my friend and her sister. My friend lives here and her sister lives in the US. Her sister has diffiuclt mental health issues and my friend had a breakdown at the same time as me, although she is doing really well now, way way better than me for sure. Anyway, the sister makes my friend feel very unsafe. She sends terrible emails and shouts down the phone about my friends selfishness and my friend is just not strong enough right now to deal with it. For her own health and happiness she has had to make the tough decision to have contact on her terms. I guess I'm trying to say that sometimes we really do have to make ourselves #1, nobody else is going to do it for us   .

I wrote a huge long post last night about the sorry state I have got myself into, and then I felt vulnerable again and deleted that part, and now I wish I hadn't been so silly and that I had kept the post   . My mental health has taken a huge downturn and if it wasn't for the fact I promised the shrink I'd take care of my pooch, then I'd be back in the nuthouse again last night - DH is away all week and I'm struggling on my own. My shrink goes on vacation next week for 4 weeks which caused a small panic but thought I'd be OK if I started psychomotor physio again, but I've just found out she is away for the same 4 weeks. Now in a very big panic   

And I won't even go into work issues. My boss is a talker rather than a listener and I am beginning to despise her (thankfully she seems to have gone on vacation too, hopefully for longer than 4 weeks  ). I'm also having big issues with a guy who sits next to me and I just can't get on with him. I was on the interview panel last year and said I didn't want to employ him and we have to get 100% agreement here, and then I was in hospital and come out to find they had offered him the job  . I'm trying really really hard to like him but its hard. I hate disrespect and as far as I'm concerned, sitting with your feet up on the desk is not respectful and neither is breaking all the lab rules, and ............ well the list goes on but its only me who doesn't like him so I have to keep trying ....... he is such an @rse though, and a lazy one at that. Although thankfully he is also on holiday from next week and even better, he is gone for 5 weeks   . Feel free to add your own punctuation in there, my OCD is really really awful at the moment (for the first time since in months) so my brain goes round and round and round in panic 24/7    

Love to all, 
Katxxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsP - have you thought about 5HTP? It might lift you a little and help you get back on track.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey all 

Kat – Janie took the words out of my mouth (or from my fingers seeing as this is all written rather than spoken). Work can be a useful distraction and can give focus etc etc, but there is a threshold. There is a point at which the pressure of work can become a tipping point. You sound exhausted and if I’m reading into this correctly they’re expecting you to complete a full workload on part time hours whilst still trying to manage a recovery process. It certainly sounds as if your work has failed to properly accommodate a phased return to work. Like Janie I’m sending some big hugs your way   

Thanks for the reassurance over the AD’s. I know it’s the right move; I know they’ve helped in the past and can do again. I also know that if any of my friends were struggling I would have no qualms about them taking AD’s. One concern I do have is if we do decide to have a final round of IVF I’m not sure I would want to be taking them so the benefit could be fairly short-term. I’ve talked through the risks with my GP and accept they are small but still, it’s hard to think of adding in even a small risk. As for panic attacks – you’re right Kat, they’re completely debilitating. I never thought I’d find myself in the position of having them and fortunately I’ve only had a few. My GP gave me some ‘take as required’ medication to help – just knowing I have them available seems to have made a difference.

One final Kat-chat – do not beat yourself up about not being able to go to your friend’s. I know there’s absolutely no way I could have stayed with my friend and her new baby – at most I will see them for a couple of hours. For all my bravado I’m dreading it. I think having a meltdown last week got some of it out of my system and I do think I will survive the weekend, but I’m not sure I’ll be unscathed. My sister-in-law has texted to say she’s standing by with tissues and a bottle of red, knowing I have some support is helping but I really don’t think I could have done what was being asked of you, and I’m not saying that just to make you feel better (though I hope it does, even if just a little…)

MrsP – no apologies needed. We all come here when we need, when we can. Sometimes we need to post about the [email protected] going on in our lives, sometimes we need to hide away. I sometimes feel guilty about posting when I’m feeling bleak but it almost always helps. This might sound a little selfish but when others post about their own struggles it makes me re-evaluate my own, it adds perspective. And those times I can offer support makes me feel valued, so really, you’re doing me a favour by fessing up to some tough times (I hope that doesn’t come across as flippant, I guess I’m just trying to help get us all past this need to apologise for not being upbeat all the time – me included!). 

Janie – I think we all really value this group and it’s brilliant to find others to really connect with amongst the thousands on here. (Not that new posters wouldn’t be welcomed!). I love GW too but sometimes feel a bit intimidated by all the positivity! Thank you too for the support over taking AD’s, and for the anger over DH’s comments – both were so validating (and for the record, DH is quite capable of being an @rse, though I do accept it’s not all the time!). You’re so right about others who get upset when we go AWOL; can they not see that it’s not how we wish things to be?

As for you – how much are you juggling right now?! I’m really glad you’ve been able to see the interview as a positive, and that you got some good feedback.
The situation with your sister sounds really complicated, and pretty toxic. How hurtful of her to dismiss your pain in that way. I don’t think people comprehend how much we grieve the loss of a failed cycle. I know the pain I felt with each lost embryo was comparable to the pain I felt after the miscarriage. My DH told me after one failed IVF that I was too upset, that no-one had actually died, but to me it felt like something had. I’d had the start of a life and I grieved its loss. He at least tried to understand that but it sounds like your sister can’t, or won’t. Why does your sister (and far too many others) have to make comparisons and put pain on some kind of scale, that their own pain somehow means others can’t also hurt? Suffering is suffering, and whilst no-one can take it away why can’t they realise that just having it acknowledged without judgement or expectations can help? BTW – I feel like a [email protected] auntie, I haven’t seen my nephew and niece as much as I could because sometimes it’s been too hard. My brother and SIL understand that and never, ever put any pressure on me. Your sister clearly does have issues and they are not yours to carry or fix. Give yourself permission to do what feels right for you.

Thinking of you all xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'd written my reply away from here and hadn't realised you'd posted again Kat. It sounds so useless to say I'm really sorry you're struggling   I can understand feeling the need to delete a post that leaves you feeling vulnerable but I hope you know you would never be judged here and we would support you however we could. As always - please contact me privately if you want/need. 

Do your therapists not leave you with any back-up support? It seems a bit much to leave you in the lurch for 4 weeks... Have you things which you can do to help in their absence? I'm only throwing ideas out here but I found acupuncture really calming, and simply seeing my GP can help. 

MrsP - I was also going to suggest 5-HTP...


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi ladies,

I had been planning to stay firmly in my cave until after this round of tx is over with, although I have been checking in on you all over the last few days.  But I hate to see so many of you struggling for different reasons, so thought I'd try to add my two cents worth, if it is of any help.

Kat - As the others have said, you don't need to feel vulnerable with us - I think that we have all shared some of our deepest, darkest thoughts and experiences with each other over the months and years, and you should know that whatever you tell us we will try our best to offer you best support and advice that we can.  I agree with Jen, whilst I understand that your shrink does need to have a holiday, surely they can provide some form of cover while they are away, so that you have a point of contact if things do get too much?  It's not as if you can schedule how you feel according to other people's availability!

It also sounds as if your bosses have some pretty unrealistic expectations, in terms of what work you can do on your part-time hours - which must be adding to the pressure.  I can't pretend to understand how you are feeling, but I do know that we all want to help you Kat, so please tell us if there is anything we can do to support you while DH is away.

Jen - My hat's off to you madam, and the strength you must have to be planning your visit this weekend.  I know you say that you are dreading it, but you are still planning on going, which means you're stronger than I am.  I'm also glad that you realise that having the ADs is the best thing for you right now, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.  I have never had any issue with people taking ADs and know of several friends who have found them a great help.  Tbh the kind of people who would have an issue with them would probably not be the kind of people that you would tell anyway, as they may well be part of that blessed group of people who have never really overcome any struggles in their life, and as a result may well have something similarly uninformed and inflammatory to say about your IF experiences.  If DH is feeling uneasy perhaps you could explain to him how much you feel that they help you, that you are having a really tough time at the moment, that it's not forever, but for now it's the little bit of extra help that you need.

As for GW - I still haven't got round to posting, although I do nose about on there every now and again.  I haven't really felt ready to post on there yet as I want to wait until after my tx.  Not because I think for a minute I will miraculously get pg, but just because my brain is focussing on that for now.  It is an incredibly positive site generally - but I have to admit that this either gives me a real boost or makes me feel a little bit lacking in get up and go, depending on what kind of a day I've had.

Janie - It sounds as if you have a tough decision to make about your upcoming treatment.  The scenario of your sister's behaviour at your dad's birthday reminded me of how I often feel when I am at family gatherings and it's all about my brother and the two golden granchildren.  My mother would be horrified to read that and would deny completely that there is any favouritism, maybe there isn't, maybe it's just inside my crazy IF-addled brain, but I know how much it hurts.  With regard to your treatment you need to choose the option that will cause you the least stress, because god knows the treatment will cause enough stress without having the added family dynamic.  It doesn't sound as if you owe your sister much explanation or understanding based on her past behaviour, but I know that it's very easy for me to say that and the reality of family relationships is always more complicated than that.

As for choosing whether to go ahead with Greece as well as your funded tx or not, I would say that you would probably be able to get more tailored treatment with a private cycle than with an NHS one.  I'm sorry I don't know the background of what your specific issues are, but if you need to talk it over with someone, then feel free to PM me.  I may not have managed to get my pathetic broken body to keep hold of a baby yet, but I've tried just about every tx along the way so might have some ideas.

Mrs P - It's good to hear from you again, although I'm sorry that you're struggling at the moment.  We are always here for you to dip in and out as you need and I agree, sometimes you just need to tell someone else who understands.  There is no one in the 'real world' that I can speak to, so you ladies are my lifeline!

NosilaB and JBT     


AFM - Have just received my third gushing birth announcement of the week, this time from an ex-colleague who is at least 10-12 years older than me, so it was a bit of a shock tbh, as I didn't even know she was pg.  At her age I'm sure it must be DE, but even that hasn't made me feel any happier for her as she has still achieved what I have not been able to in three DE cycles to date (not to mention the 6 OE ones before that).  I also have a sneaking suspicion that one of my team is pg as she has been talking about 'hoping for the pitter patter of tiny feet', clucking broodily over photos of another colleague's new baby and this afternoon has left early for a 'doctor's appointment'.  It may well be the tx hormones making me completely paranoid, but I can honestly say that if she tells me she is pg at this point I really think I will fall to pieces.  I have dealt with other  pregnancies in the office before, but never in my team and if I have to organise her maternity leave etc, let alone feign interest in her pg for the next 6 months then it will be more than my sanity can take.

As you may have realised, I'm reaching the crazy, hormone-fuelled end stages of tx, so perhaps the best thing I can do after all is shuffle back into my cave, stick my fingers in my ears and shout la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la until this god-awful process is over (again).

Big hugs to you all, and extra special ones to those that need them.

 waikiki


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Just a quickie - thanks ladies.  I'll check out the 5HTP tip.  I thought I knew about EVERY supplement but never heard of that one so thank you.  Seeing the doc on Monday anyway, so might have a chat with them too about the way I'm feeling xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for your lovely thoughts. I'm not sure where i'd be without you guys xxx
DH is home And i need to spend sone time with him but I wanted to tell you how much he made it seem ok to be me  Its quite obvious when you walk into the house that I've struggled this week so I was a bit worried what he would say. He did notice pretty quickly and asked if I had 'been a bit mental this week' so I confessed. He now wants me to speak to my shrink to finetune my mentalness. The kitchen cupboards are organized to death but he would like me to obsess about lists too, preferably shopping lists ;-) For some reason it really made me smile, he knows my OCD is back and its ok and we are now stuffing our faces with chocolate (certified by the mediteranean dietary agency?!?) and wine 

Love to you all,
Kat (now in a v safe place)


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Feeling a tinsy bit better today and just had a re-read of the posts from the last few weeks.  Time to give something back... so here are some personals:

Kat - I don't think I fully realised how tough a time you have been having.  Really glad that your DH is home and he is being chilled about it all.  It's good when DHs get it right.  I've been really meticulous in worrying, list making and general 'order' - if things aren't, I can't quite explain it, but things feel wrong - in a way that makes me uncomfortable (e.g. kitchen cupboard doors being opened feel like a danger - in the sense I might hurt my head on them, or untidiness feels like it's physically on top of me).  I guess it's not OCD but I know I am OC and it gets worse with stress.  It's good that you can share this with DH - I probably should try that too.

waikiki - Hope the treatment cycle is going well.  I totally relate to your feeling about clinics.  I went to get my thyroid checked at the hospital a few weeks ago.  Just knowing I would have to be in a hospital nearly mad me have a panic attack.  A reminder of all the hopes and disappointments overwhelmed me.  But yes, I know what you mean about new IVF-ers. It's so hard.  Anyway, I hope you are managing to keep sane in the hormonal wave you are in - and I really have everything crossed that it works out.  

Janie - Wow! Your sister!  Gosh.  My only advice is that it's right to 'park' certain family members.  I think you HAVE to put yourself first.  Easier when there is a clear path to pick up - and you have some decisions to make re: Greece/NHS that only you can make.  My mother had been very unsupportive (partly because she was ill with depression and drinking too much) but I had to make the decision to cut her out of my life during treatment.  Really hard to do, but it was the only way I could take the stress of treatment itself.  We are now much better relationship wise (partly as she's stopped the booze).  I had birthdays I missed over all my treatments (my mother in laws 80th I was a no show, a low key 40th for hubby, a similarly low key 60th for my father) - I think life won't stop, but you should ONLY do what you feel comfortable with.  It's only recently I've re-remembered that I should only do what's comfortable regardless of treatment or not!  But I'm glad you had a good weekend.

Jen - ADs are good support.  I had panic attacks in 2004, bad ones.  Hideous period of my life but one that shaped who I am today.  It made me seek counselling which improved my ability to deal with stress (despite not feeling like it at the moment lol).  I didn't think you were being flippant - and 'fessing up DOES feel good.  Since I've started to move from a mindset of 'I'm gonna end up with panic attacks and ill again with all this stress' to 'actually, I'm overwhelmed by my life and I need to deal with the emotions', I've sort-of felt better.  I think partly... because I had a bit of a big night on the wine last weekend.  The following day I just felt that I couldn't pretend things are ok, that I'm fine and I'm strong and I can deal with it.  I can't!  I think you are doing all the right things.  Like I said to Janie - you have to put yourself first.

Nosilab - I think I need to check out this GW thing proper - I did look up the founder when you mentioned it a while back.  I'm reading a book (not by the founder) that looks at positive things about later life pregnancies.  It's an uplifting read - mainly because it takes the attitude - why not?  Rather than my reading material consisting of solely problems conceiving.  I'm doing my best to embrace the 'well a miracle might happen but if it doesn't, then ok' - some days are easier than others. I hope you and DH can make the right decision regarding your FET.  None of this is easy - sometimes I want to go back 10 years when I didn't have these burdens.  But as I used to say then about things that were tough - it's character building. And then some!!

JBT - I didn't go back far enough to see your last message but I hope you are well.

I need to dash - DH has made chilli then I'm being forced out to the pub to 'enjoy' myself.  But it's just me and him so it's quiet.  He has been a diamond - I've just about given up on doing anything other than getting myself to work and back.  What I'd do without him I don't know.  I have managed to get thru to the 2nd interview to try to transfer departments - I'm just about holding that together.  As for the rest - well, I need to take my own advice really!!

Have a lovely weekend - and thanks again - for all your help and advice. 

Lots of love MrsP xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsP - I've missed you and I'm glad you are back with us. When you need support its fine to rely on DH to do everything, in the hard times the reality is that going to work is about all we have the energy for. Stress is the worst thing for bringing out OC behaviour, and I know that feeling if dread when you know things are not quite right. I hope your Dr is helpful tomorrow. I have forgotten if you are having counselling or not? It sounds like your Dr referring you for some might help to get on track again before you stray too far off it.

Hello to everyone else xxx I think I've really badly hurt my back again so I'm feeling mighty sorry for myself :-(( and my phone needs plugging in but I can't sit and type from there. I'll be back though once I've dug out some suitable drugs and my phone has juice.

I see I have a couple of pm's from lurkers on here too. Sorry for not replying, I will once I've sorted the pain out.

Katxxx


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## susiemarmite (Sep 13, 2010)

Not sure should post on this board as I am blessed with one daughter - IVF, went into labour at 21 weeks ... v lucky she and I are still here ....
But - after 3.5 years and over 12 IVF attempts including donor eggs from Spain - miscarriages, clinical pregnancies etc etc I suppose I have to admit it's game over.

I think I am struggling a bit.  I am 45 now so feel there's no point in continuing as I would realistically be too damn old and tired even if it worked - plus we are now drained both emotionally and financially ... so not sure have the resources.

But live in a real yummy mummy area - families with 3 and 4 kids ... and just feel such a freak and failure.  My daughter is one of two single kids in the class, no cousins nearby and I feel so sorry for her being an only child.  I know rationally this is nonsense but I feel I have failed her ... and let her down so badly that I can't create a sibling for her that she can rely on in later life.  

I struggle to mix socially with the school parents as I feel such a failure around them - they just chat about their big families and I have nothing to say after commenting on my lovely daughter.

And then i feel such a failure for not being so damn grateful for our lovely miracle child - when I nearly lost her so many times during the pregnancy and early weeks.

I think I am really struggling and don't know where to turn - have tried councillors, bored my husband silly and now am just getting on with life but inside I feel so empty and upset.  Each time I look at my girl, I am reminded of how much I have failed her - and I know this isn't rational.


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi Susiemarmite

Of course you can post here - this is a place where we're all trying to come to terms with the decision to stop tx, or not. I think it's relevant whatever stage you're at. We can all definitely relate to the difficulties around other family orientated people, it's a very common theme here. As is guilt; guilt for not being able to overcome IF, for the impact it has on our relationships, over not coping better, not being able to move on or embrace life fully. Wanting another child doesn't mean you're not grateful for the one you have, it took me a long time to realise I could be happy for others whilst feeling sad for myself and I think the same applies here. You feel sad, but that doesn't diminish the love you feel for your daughter.

There are no easy answers but what you will find here is lots of empathy, understanding as well as sound advice and lots of 'me too'. Knowing you're not alone can help so much. I hope some of that helps - it's been a long weekend followed by a long drive home and my brain is frazzled!

MrsP - thank you for also giving reassurance over the AD's. Being able to talk about them here has helped me overcome the angst I've felt over taking them. I still haven't told DH but I know I need to, eventually. It sounds like you feel a little less overwhelmed perhaps? I know the shift can be subtle but sometimes just acknowledging things are getting too much rather than feeling the need to maintain that front can just take the pressure off a little. I hope so. It might still be worth chatting to your GP - they may well just get you to pop back in a couple of weeks to keep an eye on things, but again, knowing that the support is there if you need it can be so helpful.

Kat - it sounds like the same applies to you too? Having your DH be ok with the reappearance of your OCD again must just feel like a huge pressure has been lifted. Top marks to Mr Kat . I'm relieved to know you're feeling safe.

Waikiki - don't hide in that cave - we all know all too well the drug-fuelled madness of tx and we can try to be the voice of calm in it all. I can understand your baby-radar being on high alert, mine is pretty finely tuned now and you learn to read the signs. Try not jump too far ahead of yourself though, that's when it does start to feel overwhelming. It might feel self-protecting to plan how you might manage the situation at work but more likely it will send your head on a panic driven roundabout of thoughts. Take a deep breath, a step back and know that whatever happens you *will * cope, and we'll be here to listen, rant at the unfairness of it all, or chuckle at the drug-induced jumping to conclusions.

AFM - I survived the weekend of new baby, pregnant friend and friend whose just had her first embryo transfer. But only just, and I don't feel better for having gone (other than the pressure is off for a while). I managed to hold it together in their company but had several lonely sobbing sessions in the car. I felt so removed from them; these friends who I have grown up with, lived with, holidayed with. As they chatted and reminisced, the conversation peppered (but not dominated, to give them their due) by baby/pregnancy chat I just felt like a stranger, I felt invisible (and wished I was). The talk about having a joint 40th (hiring a cottage big enough for *everyone*) just left me reeling and panic stricken. That is something I just can't imagine facing. Nor can I face the promised 'visit for a few days' from new mum this summer.

I did have a great time with my niece and nephew though (8 and 11). I'm so grateful that I don't feel the same gut-punch with them as I do with any other children (though the visit to the playground with hoards of families was a step too far, thank goodness for dark sunglasses).

I don't really know where this leaves me. I really hoped I would come away feeling calmer about the whole situation but I don't. I was supposed to meet one of the friends today but cried off. I just couldn't face it.

Dh hasn't asked too much about the weekend. He could tell I'd been upset (don't know what gave it away, surely not the puffy eyes!). At least he didn't give me a hard time, he doesn't really understand why I find it so hard - they're my friends afterall! I think he's waiting for me to burst into tears but I'm kind of cried out for now.

Righto, I think I need to indulge in chocolate, pizza and a long sleep and hopefully my mojo might turn up tomorrow. If anyone spots it in the meantime can you give it a firm boot up the backside and send it back home?!

Jen xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Jen - you are an incredibly brave lady. Maybe you don't feel better for it right now but as you say... it's out of the way for a while. I deeply admire you for seeing it through. I have also had the joint 40th conversation and have told dh to forget it. I want it to be me, him and the dog. On my phone just now so can't say more but just wanted to take my hat off to you. Xx

Susie marmite... welcome... X

Kat, rest up. Hope the back issue is just a blip.

Sorry to be so brief ladies, as always, thinking of you all. Xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Just made a last minute plan to meet my friend and her baby this afternoon. She's one of my best friends that I haven't seen in over a year since she got pregnant at the same time as my chemical pregnancy. She's been really patient with me and has always replied to my emails with kindness and consideration and honesty. Am feeling good today and think it's probably time to test myself. I need to make a decision about IVF by the end of the week. I know this friend won't give me any 'I'm complete now' crap so I feel safe enough... plus, it's just me, her and baby so I won't be subject to that feeling of being sidelined as the non-mother. I expect to be floored by it but you never know. 

Wish me luck ladies. I know you understand how big a decision this is. xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Huge decision Janie, and I really hope it goes well. Sometimes the anticipation is worse than the reality but however it turns out it's a brave move . It does make it easier when the person involved has been understanding and considerate but that doesn't mean it could well still stir up some difficult emotions. It sounds like this friend will be compassionate though, and allow you to feel what you need to feel.

Thinking of you, and hoping this might turn into a healing step for you xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Wishing you luck Janie and wanted to remind you that it's ok to have a little cry afterwards, and its equally ok to feel at ease with it too. Don't put any expectations in yourself and just feel how you feel.
I hope you enjoy catching up with your friend xxx

Osteopath for me tomorrow :-(


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - the same goes for you re crying. If this weekend hasn't been tough on you I'd have been very surprised. It's so lonely and in turn painful to be surrounded by people you feel so disconnected to after being friends forever. I guess it felt a bit like they were all moving on together while you were left behind and on your own.
Thinking of you, Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Jen and Janie - just to reiterate what Kat says - I think it's really important to 'feel' and not lock off any emotions - in whatever way you feel is right.  I've done some right DIVA crying fits in front of MrP of late.  Honest to god, someone will give me an Oscar one day   But seriously, it's a huge step dealing with other people's motherhood journey when ours has been so damn hard.  Don't feel bad if you need to take time out to digest/react.

Susie - welcome!  It's a good place to come to, this thread. Very supportive and lovely people!

Kat - hope the back isn't too bad.  I've got my little ankle injuries irritating me from time to time (achilles tendon - BOTH - how unlucky eh?).  Physical on top of emotional turmoil is not the best combination - but I try my best (when in non-Diva mode) to disassociate the two.  Doesn't stop either hurting though.  Glad you are feeling a bit better emotionally.

Janie - good luck with your IVF decision - I know it's not an easy one.  I had a similar set of decisions last year.  Tricky!

AFM.  Doc was lovely.  Alarmed to hear how much I was trying to cope with.  Didn't sort any counselling out, but, I generally do this on the NHS.  My last counsellor was a disaster so I'll have to try another if the time comes.  At the minute - things ok. Not great but ok.  He's doubled my BP meds though - which, given they are betablockers (the only ones you can take if TTC - except it's not meant to take 7 years to hit the jackpot) should reduce the Diva in me.  He did comment I seemed 'on the edge of my seat' (literally) and said come back in two months for a check up.  Try to relax.  Ha!  I almost felt like I was reading out the questions on those life event stress questionnaires when he asked what was stressing me out.

Anyway... got a presentation to write for tomorrow's 2nd interview.  Happily, feeling quite ok whatever the turnout... I have a strategy to cope in the current job and I have hopes for the new job.  Throw of the dice will decide it.  Slight preference to move - as it's less 'obvious' team-draining stress.  I think!

Lots of love to everyone,
MrsP xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Well I'm back. Jen and Kat, thanks for your messages ladies. I was reading them as I was waiting for my friend to arrive on the train and it genuinely helped. Felt like I had a wee support team.   

As it turns out, it was completely fine. I held the baby and talked a bit about it baby-related stuff and I was OK. Like really OK. I've actually surprised myself. I haven't been near a baby or toddler in several years so this was new territory for me. I absolutely know that I wouldn't have been OK six months ago, or even a couple of months ago. I would have been in pieces. I also know that it wouldn't have been OK if there had been any other mums there or probably even if someone else had come up and fussed over my friend as the new Mum or her baby. I should probably also say that my friend had a pretty tough journey to get her wee girl including two miscarriages so she is way more aware of what she says than other new Mums might be. But all that said, I was fine. It doesn't mean I will be OK with other situations but it was a step in the right direction for now. Just like you Jen, I also feel it takes the pressure off. I got the chance to tell her that it's still really tough and that I'm extremely likely to  go AWOL again, especially if we do have more treatment. 

It hasn't remotely helped me in terms of our own decision unfortunately. But that's for another day.... quite soon unfortunately...

MrsP - glad your GP was on your side. Fingers crossed for you tomorrow. I really hope you get this chance for a fresh start but it sounds as though you have re-grouped work-wise. Let us know how you get on. 

Waikiki - I'm so sorry you're having to deal with so many announcements. I know how hard that is. It seems to be the single guarantee around IVF, that when you are going through it .. or going back to work afterwards, at least 3 people will announce their pregnancy. I hope you're hanging in there and that things are going well. I hope it's safe in your cave. Don't come out until you're ready. Big hug  

Jen - I'm conscious that my posting that today was OK for me might come across as insensitive given how tough your weekend was. Please know that they were completely different circumstances. I remain in awe of you meeting a group like you did given how recently you have had to cope with such a big loss. I absolutely couldn't have done that. I hope you're doing OK today and it hasn't set you back too far. I hope you're getting some head space to process it all.

Kat - good luck at the osteopath tomorrow. You really don't need any more physical pain right now so I have everything crossed they can get you sorted.

Nosilab - hope you're doing OK. Have you managed to press DH into a decision yet? Our homes must be quite similar right now with our menfolk desperately trying to avoid any such conversation whilst we just don't have the energy or possibly the will to make them talk. I sense that you are growing stronger every day and really starting to see a positive childfree life. I hope you're OK. 

SusieMarmite - you've had one hell of a journey. As Jen says, you are welcome here - we're all mainly trying to figure out how to know when enough is enough and you fit into that category. I guess there are some obvious differences and perhaps some of the raw emotions are a bit different but I think you'll find this thread is hugely supportive. 

JBT - still thinking about you hon. xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

I'm so sorry I've been AWOL for a while, I do read every day to keep up with you all.  But time seems to fly and by the time I think I have 5 mins to post I realise there have been more posts and then I start to feel overwhelmed and like I can't reply in a meaningful or worthwhile way - so then I don't post!    Any, I too am so so grateful for this thread and I don't intend on going anywhere!  I couldn't have got through the last few months without all your reassurance and understanding.  I do love the GW forum but I think I need both at the mo, they both work for me side by side.

So, going back to feeling overwhelmed, I'm going to struggle I think to do lots of personals - brain capacity just not there!  Bit I'll give it a go....

Jen, I'm so so relieved for you that you made the right decision to go back on the ADs.  We all need a little helping hand from time to time (in whatever form) and there is nothing to feel ashamed of about that.  I really don't know where the stigma comes from, it's such an old fashioned view now, times have changed and as far as I can tell most people these days don't bat an eyelid.  Lives are stressful, too much to cope with so if the ADs help then why the hell not is what I say    Btw, how brave are YOU visiting your friends like that!  Ok, so I know you had tears, but heck!  You did it!  I'm in awe, really I am.  I still haven't seen my best friend (of 36 years) or her baby, and baby was born last December.  I just can't bring myself to do it and every time I try and imagine a meet up I feel the panic bubbling up inside!  Apart from one school friend (who's hoping to start IVF soon) I'm now the only one without children - very isolating.  I also had the 'joint 40th birthday' talks.  And 3 of us planned to hold a massive party with a live band who we all liked.  We had been saving up for about 2-3 years so that we could afford it all, but then for me IF/tx took over.  The final straw was when my best friend fell pregnant - that pulled the plug on those plans completely.  It was a definite 'no go' after that!  So I understand how you're feeling, how difficult all those emotions are.  But go with your gut feeling and if it's too much to deal with then don't do it - don't put yourself through unnecessary pain for the sake of one day and a number.

Kat, glad to hear you're back in a safe place.  Even though I didn't post (sorry) I was very worried about you.  It's at times like this I hate that we're all so far apart.  But you know we're always here for you and we'll do whatever we can (albeit remotely) to help, comfort and support   How's your back?  Hope you managed to find some suitable pain relief - even if it was wine?!

MrsP, so lovely to hear from you!  Sounds like you have a good plan there on the job front, good positive thinking - I like it!  Sounds like your appt went well with the doc today too, all good stuff!

Waikiki, as Jen says, please don't hide in your cave (says the person mostly lurking in the background not able to muster enough brain power to post!) we're hear to listen and not judge.  The hormone induced frenzy of tx is never great is it, but keep strong and remember we're here as and when you need us  

Janie, so much going on for you!!  Life seems to have a way of throwing [email protected] at us all at once doesn't it - but I think we're all learning, slowly but surely, to try and throw some of it back and say "not today thank you!", we have to try and take back control, even if it's only seemingly small things for now.  Hope your friend visit went as well as can be expected and that it hasn't set you back?  Brave lady  

Welcome Susie, I agree with Jen.  We're all here because of failed tx, we all hurt and all feel isolated.  I'm sure you'll find much support on this thread

JBT, not sure if you're away visiting family, lurking and reading or just not up to facing the world right now, but please know we're all thinking of you and hope you're doing ok? x

I hope I've included everyone?  My replies seem very inadequate given how much you've all written - I guess like someone else said (Kat I think?) that that's one of the good things about GW, that you can do short replies or even 'likes' when you don't feel up to doing the 'deep and meaningfuls'.

AFM - for some reason I can't seem to bring myself to initiate the chat with DH.  You'd think I'd be keen to move forward wouldn't you, either start our FET or work towards 'moving on' but my head is all over the place and I don't feel capable of making any kind of sensible decision - let alone a potential life changing one!  I know I can't really continue living in denial forever, but I'm not even sure how I feel or what I want to say to DH.  So how do I try and explain how I'm feeling to him when I don't even understand it all myself?!  Trouble is, I know what DH wants (or rather doesn't want!) so I guess I'm kinda shying away from hearing the inevitable.  There's 'denial' again!  So ladies, still no further forward in our decision making - I just want it to all go away now - back to a time before IF invaded our lives  

Right, need to get myself off to bed now so will sign off for now.  Night all...

 xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Janie, our posts crossed!  I'm very VERY proud of you!!  So impressed!  You.are.amazing!  So pleased that it went so well


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

...haha!  Just realised our posts didn't actually cross!  I just took forever to write and post


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hehehe, I'm like that too nosilab. I often think I'll do a quick post while I have 5 mins and then half an hour later I'm still typing ..... I'm not famous for my speed typing that's for sure ;-)

Sorry Susie, I missed your post before. Welcome to the gang. 

My osteopath doesn't think I've prolapsed again   The first thing she asked wa if i'd been wearing my pants on the outside again which really confused me. Then she clarified and explained that even Wonder Woman takes 12 months to heal after surgery, not the 3 months i've allowed myself lol. She hit the roof when i confessed to some stuff i've been doing ..... and i didn't even mention the gardening! I think I was more stressed about it than I realised because now its ok, I'm completely exhausted. I'll be back tomorrow for a proper post.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ok, I'm coming on here for a bit of a rant. We're days away from needing to make a decision about Greece and I'm sick and tired of the whole thing whirring around in my head whilst DH avoids the subject at all cost. It's bull***t. I suppose it tells me all I need to know. After my euphoria at feeling OK yesterday I'm now just feeling angry. I'm doing OK and I know I'll be OK if we decide to move on... but I feel like I've basically just given up because it's too exhausting doing this on my own. It's ridiculous, we literally never talk about it. I talk about it with other people in front of him but he just sits there and says nothing. I know that with other things in life he often employs the tactic of just not saying anything if it's something he doesn't want and generally things just disappear. And so OK, maybe I have to accept he doesn't want this but I'm sick and tired of not talking about it. He thinks there is nothing new to say but that's crap. My emotions and feelings have changed every month since I started this thread back in January and the situation is dynamic. Now it just feels that there is SO much to say that I don't know where to start. I'm really angry tonight.

Anyway, Kat - relieved to hear that your back is just responding to a bit of over-doing it and nothing too serious.... you didn't need that.

Nosilab - really lovely to hear from you. Yet again, I think you and I are in the same place and I just wish I could go for a pint with you and talk it through. Don't feel you need to write long posts on here but it's definitely lovely to hear from you. I'm starting to look at GW more frequently now and realising our chat is spreading between both places... I keep an eye out for you ladies on there!


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Oh Janie, rant away. I know it's a cliche but men really are from Mars (in fact I think from a different solar system altogether). Why can't they realise that ignoring an issue does not make it go away; that if anything it makes it bigger and uglier? My DH is definitely in the same camp, we've had endless discussion about which car he should lease, what features it should have, the colour, debating the pros and cons of having a second car when we're still on one income, but if I try to bring up 'the' issue I get the silent treatment - there's nothing to discuss, apparently.

You're right Janie, it is bull***t. I know there are plenty of people who would point to the fact men deal with things differently, who might argue that they don't want to see us put ourselves through it etc etc. There may be some truth in those lines of thought but I also think sometimes they just need to grow up and deal with these real, grown-up issues instead of hoping they just go away.

Jen


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Nosilab - as always there's no pressure to post but it's good to see you again  

And yes, it would be good to return to a pre-IF state wouldn't it? I've forgotten what that looks like now and I suspect this process has changed me forever. Not all for the bad but I'm not sure I can ever be the person I was. Like you I just want some closure on all this (sorry if that sounds a pop psychology...) but at the same time I'm scared about what that might mean or look like. And as for joint 40's, maybe we should put that aside and start planning our FF meet-up?! Now that's something I could get excited about...

Kat - really pleased there's no damage to your back but will you please start listening to your doc?! Take it easy....

MrsP - yay for your doc. Having had my fair share of rubbish counsellors and useless GP in the past I know what a difference a good one can make. Sometimes it's just knowing that they will listen and not just reach for the prescription pad to get rid of you (though obviously sometimes there's a need for meds too!).

AFM - the lines of communication have opened up a little with my friend with the new baby. I'd texted her to wish her good luck for an upcoming interview for a teaching post, and she admitted she had no idea what to say to me so hadn't wanted to upset me by asking. She did admit to feeling like she was walking on egg-shells which hurt a bit but at least we're kind of talking. We'll see...

Jen xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - now you´re talking! Forget all this turning 40 with old friends rubbish, let turn 40 with new friends instead. I´m waaaaaay younger than you guys though and don´t turn 40 til 2014 but I´m ok with celebrating early  One of my very close friends and I have an agreement. I don´t want her to tiptoe around me and she doesn´t want to hurt me so the deal is that she carries on as normal with baby talk if thats when she wants to tell me, and I can tell her when its too much without her getting offended. She has always made sure that I hear stuff from her too rather than being subjected to the public pregnancy announcement. And weirdly I can happily chat away to her about baby stuff and I´ve never had to tell her to stop. I think its the openness that means that she now feels comfortable telling me and I feel safe listening. It probably also helps that we have other things to talk about too and she is not a stressy gushing mum anyway, and she has the most adorable puppy 

Janie - you rant away! Men are so rubbish sometimes  Maybe a counselling session together will help him realise that you really do need to talk about this? Perhaps if your counsellor accepts that you need to talk about it, then DH will see that you are not just being an emotional wreck, but that there really is stuff you need to discuss. I don´t know, I was just thinking if your counsellor validates the need to talk, then maybe its harder for him to just ignore it. I did smile to myself (in a kind of sad wistful way) at Jens comment about choosing a car. Dh and I have spent hours an hours discussing breeding bees and chickens compared to an insignificant amount of time discussing our own breeding  , and DH has certainly done more research into hatching eggs and being queens bees than he ever did on IVF!

Nosilab - I think not wanting to start the talk with DH sounds normal to me. Neither outcome is particularly appealing is it? Go for the hormonal turmoil that is FET or the emotional turmoil that is ´moving on´. Making a decision changes everything and for all being so unsure and unsettled is frustrating and tiring, it is also safe. You know how it feels and what emotions go with it. Taking the next step in either direction is going to be hard for a while. I have decided that we are not doing FET but I still haven´t sorted the paperwork to destroy our embryo because I like the safety net of having it there and I´m not quite ready to face the next stage of emotions. Perhaps your safety net is that your hope that your DH might still change his mind.

MrsP - how did your presentation go? I´m glad you talked to your Dr and it sounds like offloading helped a little. It also means that if you do need to go back for extra support later then you are already in the system. You do sound better though. Maybe you actually took on board yourself all your lovely words of wisdom to the rest of us 

JBT - 

Waikiki - I hope cave is comfy and safe from people likely to upset you? Thinking of you lots and wishing good things your way 

My physical and emotional pain is getting all jumbled up again and I´m not sure where I am. I´m home alone again which isn´t helping I guess and I have my final shrink session later before being left to fend for myself for 4 weeks ......... I´m a bit scared about that to be honest. Ho hum, not a lot I can do about it.

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Right, I'm going to _try_ and make this a quick one!

Janie, yes, yet again it does seem we're in very similar places. And I totally get what you mean about the lack of conversation from DH. Like, if we don't talk about it it'll magically disappear!! I think I'm the same, that part of my indecision is caused by the fact I'm just too mentally exhausted to do this on my own. I too wish we could meet for a drink, I reckon we could easily be there 'til last orders! 

Jen, I'm glad things seem a little easier between you and your friend, sounds like a positive move in the right direction.

Kat, hang on in there, we're always here for you but especially over the next 4 weeks.

Thank you as always everyone for your great comments, and for making me feel normal in my indecision 

I'm loving the sound of an 'Enough' meet up! Weirdly I almost suggested it yesterday, but for some reason didn't! Sounds like a much better plan than a shared birthday 'do'!

xx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat (I'm going to ignore that rather cheeky comment on being so much younger  ) - how are you doing today? I know not having the support of your therapist is going to be incredibly tough for the next few weeks, I know how much that has sent me into a spin in the past. Do you know what might help if things do start to feel overwhelming? I used to have a list which I would work through - it would start with simple things like going for a walk, listening to a meditation CD through to calling a friend, seeing my GP, calling a helpline (it was a long list...). Having that structure helped, it took out the panic of not knowing what to do - I would just get out the list, start working through it and at some point the 'crisis' would pass. As always we're here and I would hope you would lean on us as much as you need.

Maybe we need to start thinking seriously about a meet up? I know I have a fair old mix of excitement and fear over the idea if I'm honest! I would love to be able to sit with you all and talk, trying to say it in a post takes so long! And yet there's safety in it isn't there? Meeting face to face could be daunting too (what if we don't get on in real life, what if they all don't like me - will I ever grow out of those insecurities?!). Plus for some of us there is uncertainly about whether there's further tx on the horizon; that has a habit of messing up plans. Anyway, the idea is out there now and maybe it's one we can work on  

Nosilab (and Janie) - yup, it's so draining to try and figure this out alone. Yes we can get support from our friends but at the end of the day it's something that we need to be able to do as couple. The long term implications of that decision are exactly that - long term, so it doesn't feel right for the weight of that to be on one person. Any other life changing decision would be taken together - the decision to marry, buy a house, change jobs (or in my DH's case, chose a car) - these are all things that would be discussed and done together. 

I just wanted DH to want it. Not to just go along with it for my sake (whilst secretly hoping I might change my mind). There are times when I wish he would just tell me he's not prepared to try again, to just put an end to this awful limbo. I know it's not that simple but I just don't feel like I know my own mind anymore, what do I actually want?!  

Jen


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Jen. Wot you said. All of it. Ditto. Xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

We must be one of the most geographically spread out threads on here. Even ignoring JBT and me, you are all still in every corner of the UK. Thats cool though because it means we have to meet somewhere new and exciting for all of us. I´m up for it, anytime anywhere   


You´ve met me already Jen so its less scary for us. I met up with about 16 or so from a previous buddy thread and afterwards my impression of people didn´t change at all. I think when you´ve been chatting for so long you get to know people well enough for there not to be any shocks.


I was thinking about my abandonment for the next 6 weeks (not 4 as I thought because I take 2 weeks too) and thought I could maybe write down some of the things I wanted to talk to the psychologist about when they come up. Maybe the act of writing it down will help? Also she is sorting out a contact name for me at the crisis center and if possible she will get them to call me and make a couple of appointments just for security. I have a list of actions too actually Jen so I´ll dig it out this weekend. Its in my ´hospital´ folder though which contains some pretty horrific stuff including my diary from when I was incarcerated so I need Dh to be in the house to go and get the list. I´m feeling OK today so I can laugh about how ridiculous this all is and how completely bonkers I clearly am     


And Jen, how did you not know we had bees? Have I really not bored you all to death about them? I´m so paranoid about boring people about it that I probably never even mentioned it   . Anyway, we have 3 proper hives at the moment, 1 at the cabin and 2 in the nature reserve beyond the garden. And yesterday 2 new queens bees arrived in the post so I put them in 2 new starter hives in the woods. We had a hive in the garden last year but that was way too stressful. Have I not told you about having a swarm while DH was away and having to go next door to get them back. I was wearing full bee keeping gear and when I got round next door the neighbour was in her bikini completely surrounded by bees


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

You get bees through the post?! Lordy, I like bees and everything but if my postie ever came bearing such gifts I would not be a happy bunny. And no, whilst you mentioned discussing breeding bees with DH I didn't realise you actually terrorised the neighbourhood with them. Don't mess with Kat girls, she's got killer bees....

You're right about meeting up Kat, it would be fine  

Glad to hear there's support in place over the next couple of weeks, and that you're feeling a bit calmer about it


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm quite sure that if the postie knew what he was delivering he'd have been a fairly unhappy bunny too ;-)


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Haha!!  Love it! Bees in the post, that's a new one on me!  They must be mighty angry when they're 'unwrapped'?!  I didn't know about the bees either Kat, I only knew after you posted the photo on GW the other day - amazing!  I wouldn't be bored hearing about it, I love the idea, if we had a decent size garden I'd love to keep bees.  As for you in your full bee keeping suit and the neighbour in her bikini - brilliant, what an image!!  

Jen, your paragraph - "I just wanted DH to want it. Not to just go along with it for my sake (whilst secretly hoping I might change my mind). There are times when I wish he would just tell me he's not prepared to try again, to just put an end to this awful limbo. I know it's not that simple but I just don't feel like I know my own mind anymore, what do I actually want?!" - so so true!  I couldn't have put it better myself.

As for the meet up, I think Kat is right, if you get on well with people you've been chatting to on here (or any forum) then I reckon that's a pretty good indication that we'd all get on in 'real life'.  I don't feel scared by a meet up, I think it'd be very exciting!  Mind you, being a bit weird about stuff I have to say now I'm scared of flying and London!!!  So that might throw a teeny spanner in the works?!  

What a glorious day here in the south of the UK (hope it is for everyone?).  I'm going to tootle off and go for a little stroll around the lake (at work) to soak up some of this vitamin D.

xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

London is not very central for any of us anyway so we would make it somewhere in the middle (middle of you uk people that is). I'm happy to do the flying bit, your pounds won't go far in Norway whereas my tax rebate will go a long long way in the uk.

Glorious here too. It's really windy and bringing in our proper summer weather at last. Been out and got my vino which is chilling nicely alongside my Curlywurly that my fab FF has sent me 

I've been thinking about the 3 of you making decisions and I guess feeling a little grateful that I was told I wasn't allowed more tx at the moment - it upset me mo end to have the choice taken away, but maybe it was a good thing too. Up and til that point I think both DH and I had got to the apathy/ambivalent stage so would probably have suffered the same non-committal uncertainty. It sucks and i feel for you all and want to lock the 3 men in a room together And not let them out until they have sorted themselves and eachother out. Actually my DH is going in with them too since he has a few things he needs to think carefully about. It's such a horribly lonely journey isn't it :-(

Thinking about you too waikiki xxx

MrsP - i hope you get chance over the weekend to let us know how work went this week.

JBT xxx

Best go get some sun lotion and save my beekeeping tales (including DH in A&E) til another day ;-)
Katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Good morning ladies,

Sorry that I’ve been AWOL for a few days, but thank you for all of your thoughts over the past few weeks.  2wws are never easy, but this time it went to a whole new level as during the second week alone I was bombarded with 5 birth announcements and 2 pg announcements.  As Nosila can testify, at one point earlier this week all I could think to do was start hurling heavy objects at walls!  

The madness finally ended on Wednesday when we went to the clinic for a blood test.  We were stunned to learn that on our 10th attempt we have finally moved one step closer and achieved a positive result.  I had been talking to DH about surrogacy just moments before we got the test results, as I was so convinced that we had been unsuccessful yet again.  It still hasn’t sunk in and of course I am terrified that when we go for our first scan there will be nothing there.  But I have dreamt of getting to this stage for so, so long, that I am trying to live in the moment and enjoy this, for however long it lasts.

I know that my news may be difficult for some of you to hear, and for that I am truly sorry.  I have been dithering for the past few days over how best to tell you all, but in the end felt that you have all been such great supports and friends to me, that you deserved for me to just get it over with.

 waikiki


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh Waikiki that's wonderful news. And you know yourself that any pangs of sadness are drowned out by delight for you.
About bl00dy time you got to enjoy being pregnant if you ask me. Oh Waikiki I really am so happy for you.
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Oh my word! That's genuinely lovely news Waikiki. Tentative congratulations... and only tentative because i think that is what i would want in your situation. Now so long as you don't go all 'never give up' on us then i only see this as totally amazing, happy news. Soak up the moment Waikiki, lord knows you've been through enough to get there. If I was a dancing banana kind of gal then you would definitely be getting some but as it is you'll have to make do with a massive heart felt hug. Xxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow!!  What absolutely wonderful news Waikiki!!  I'm over the moon for you    It must have been some kind of weird psychic sense as I just logged on to message you to find out how you are, and if indeed you did resort to throwing heavy objects at walls?!  And there was your update.  Really lovely news Waikiki, sending big congratulatory hugs xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

That's the only reason I logged on too nosilab. My heart was actually racing and I was a bag of nerves lol. I think that shows how much we wanted this for you Waikiki xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Ladies, you are THE BEST!  

Thank you so much for your well wishes, from you all they mean so much.

That is the last that you will hear about it from me for now - and Janie, me 'go all never give up' on you'?!! NEVER - people who do that deserve a good     if you ask me.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I think it's ok for me to say this here, well i really hope it is since I don't know where else to share it.

Waikiki's wonderful news has messed with my head, but not in the ways that you are all imagining. I don't feel any jealousy or even envy and certainly no 'why not me?' I am truly delighted about it. The bit I am struggling with is that fact I gave up trying. Maybe it's the significance that my next cycle would be #10 too. It's all pointless thinking because there is no way in the world that DH would try again. I guess I'm struggling because its a feeling I've not felt for a long long time. Regret :-( What if I needed 10 cycles too.

I really am over the moon for you Waikiki and very pleased that I must have moved on to some extent because I'm genuinely happy for you. But if that's the case, how can I now be full of regret?

I hope it is ok to say that? I just suddenly feel very lonely realising that I have nowhere to take this wave of powerful and overwhelming emotion. I hope my thoughts don't confuse the 3 if you deciding what to do next. Oh, damn it, just when I thought I was ok with childlessness, I realise I've just been pretending.


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Kat, I don't think you would be human if that question didn't occur to you. I certainly pay much more attention when someone gets their bfp on round 4. But maybe it's just an understandable reaction. Sit with it a while, am sure it will pass, and perhaps more quickly than you think. I'm on train to Glasgow right now. Made snap decision this morning to go to gw meetup. No time to be nervous. Anyway, on phone so as usual, inadequate response but will be back later to catch up properly. Xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat, I'd say that's a perfectly normal and understandable response, I think it'd be kind of odd if you didn't think those things, given that you were at a similar stage of trying.  i think wherever each of us is we're all going to have our IF related wobbles from time to time.  I honestly don't think the feelings of regret, and all the 'what ifs' ever go away completely, we wouldn't be human if they did - it just shows we're sensitive souls with deep emotional scares from IF.  As Janie says, hopefully it'll pass quicker than you anticipate.  Also everyone is different, and you stopped tx when it was the right time for you (whatever those circumstances were)  

Enjoy your meet up Janie!  So glad you decided to go  

xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Kat, I'm so sorry that this has upset you and I understand everything that you have said.  There are not many FFers who have got to 9 or 10 txs - partly because many of them are lucky enough to get pg earlier on, partly because many people stop before they get to that stage.  I hope I don't offend anyone by saying that to keep going for 9 cycles takes a lot more determination that some people have, so don't ever think of yourself as a quitter.  

Perhaps 10 cycles would have been enough for you, perhaps it would have been 12, 15 or even 20, but this is not something you can dwell on or you will drive yourself mad.  As Nosila has said, you stopped tx when it was right for you and you have seemed very at peace with that decision for some time now.  I'm sorry that my news has caused you to doubt this and I think that it has just caught you off guard because it was so unexpected.  Be kind to yourself and accept that this is a wobble that hopefully will pass soon. 

 waikiki


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thank you all for not thinking badly of me, especially you waikiki xxx

I've been over and over it in my head - everything must be analysed a million times over - i still feel the same as i did yesterday about being a mum, my time has passed and deep down its not what i want now. What i want is to belong and at 5 grand a shot with no guarantees its just not the gang i want to belong to anymore. I need to find another place to belong and belong there for the right reasons. Lol, that probably makes me sound even more kooky than before.

So, discussion over and all energy and hope and thought and what ever else we have to offer now goes to our new very very tiny group member  Stick tight wee baby W.

Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

to Kat xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Quick "cracking news Walkiki" brill, fabbo!
I'm in Valencia chilling out by the pool til Wed. 2nd interview was exhausting but I'm told I'm on the shortlist still so its playing the waiting game. Hugs to Kat, it's understandable to react like this. I often believe I'm pretending to embrace childlessness. But feelings are never static things, we ahould remember that. 
Right, night out wine, ahem, tasting awaits. More when I get back xx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies 

Well I'm back from my GW meet-up. Had a lovely afternoon tea followed by cocktails with some great women. Not sure whether I have forged any lasting connections but it was fun and took me out of my comfort zone which I think has done me some good. Every lady's story was very different yet there seemed to be a shared understanding which I maybe don't feel with other women. So Nosilab... thanks for the wee kick up the jacksie and reminder that it might be a good thing to attend. I would definitely go to another. Kat - I totally understand what you say about the need to 'belong' somewhere - I feel that too. 

I'm having one of those nights where I don't seem to be able to get the jumble of emotions down on screen so I'm going to sign off for now.

Love to you all, a slightly drunk Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ooo Valencia!!  Sounds wonderful MrsP.  Enjoy and relax  

Janie, I'm sooooo thrilled you had an enjoyable afternoon!  I'm glad I gave you that kick up the bum now    You may not have forged any long lasting friendships (I felt the same with our group), but that might come with time and also people will probably come and go from the group, so you never know who might be there at the next meet up.  But isn't it great (if not a bit overwhelming - in a good way!) to be surrounded by other women who just 'get it', it's a very reassuring experience.  Apart from anything else, cream tea and cocktails sounds fab!!

hope everyone is enjoying this glorious weather!!  

xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

You all watching the tennis? I was going to watch it out on the deck but at 30 degrees its way too hot! How are they playing rallys like that at 40 degrees?!?!


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

I live 1 mile from dunblane. We've got tv outside and half the village watching!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm not watching no, probably the only person who isn't!  Tis bloomin hot here too, so have been inside trying to keep cool and doing some pottery - which has been a tad challenging as everything dries out so quickly in this heat!


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I thought it was going to 5 sets so I popped out to walk the dog and I come back to find it all over!!!

British Lions win and a Wimbledon win hey, not a bad weekend of sport. Venturing onto the deck now in the hope its cooled a little. 

Did you have to speed potter nosilab?


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Well done Andy Murray xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Haha!  Yes I kinda did have to do 'speed potting' Kat! Which to be fair is probably a good thing for me 'cos I'm a bit of a faffer, so I could easily have sat there for hours tinkering!


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies

Can't sleep. Drank way too much this afternoon and now I'm paying for it. Was a lovely few giddy hours just watching the tennis and not thinking about this darn decision for a while. I'm pretty wired just now. Still no sign of my period which has been great because it means that the whole potential clash with my Sister's visit has been avoided. It's also great because it's given me a wee bit more thinking time (or sticking head in sand time). DH and I had a half-hearted talk on Sat morning which basically went along the lines of him joining when I spoke about all the worries and concerns I had about trying again and  him being silent when I tried to turn that on it's head. I've just posted a big post on GW about moving on. Nothing new to you ladies. I was feeling quite euphoric when I wrote it and now having got it out there, the all too familiar doubt crept back in. But on the whole, I think I am edging towards walking away. 

Kat - I was thinking about your comment about fitting in. For some reason that struck a chord with me. I definitely feel a sense of belonging with women who have had to face this challenge - whatever the route. What would happen if I actually got pregnant? Who would be my tribe? I was single well into my 30s and definitely felt a sense of kinship with other ladies who were single ... and honestly felt like I had somehow betrayed them when I got married. It's not really relevant to anything and I'm not sure why I'm mentioning it but it's something I feel. Maybe that's why GW is really growing on me. Perhaps I don't need it for support but for that sense of belonging and reassurance that there are absolutely LOADS of lovely, beautiful, intelligent, interesting women who don't have children for so many reasons. I can get directed to interesting web-snippets without having to handle the horror of ********. It's safe. Nobody is going to post a scan photo for example!

Jen - I was wondering how you were getting on in terms of your friends. Did you watch the Brene Brown talk that was posted up there? I thought of you immediately when I saw her response to Jody's question. Did you send your letter? I obviously don't know your friends or your history together but I can't help but feel that it would help you if you could really just put how you feel down on paper and trust your friends with it. It sounds as though this is exactly what you have done. I maybe just wanted to gently encourage you to be brave and to send it.   

As for the discussion about meeting up, I would really love that. I'm not scared about meeting any of you ladies. You have all helped me to get through so much that I think I will feel forever indebted to you all. I have occasionally tried to explain to some of my 'non-virtual' friends about how much I have gained from this thread but I can tell they don't get it. I don't really care, they maybe haven't been through something so isolating. I guess I have been waiting to see where my own decision takes me and I guess others are in the same boat. But in principle, I would love to arrange a weekend get together, anywhere you like. 

Right, I really should try and get some sleep. Love to you all.
Janie xx (laugh to my stupid self every time I type that!)


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Crikey, I have missed a lot!

Waikiki - adding my slightly belated, but still heartfelt (and a little cautious, but with everything crossed!) congratulations! I can understand it must have felt difficult to post here but I'm glad you overcame that. The announcements which I've felt easier to cope with have been those that have been mindful of how hard that might be to hear, and I think you were certainly careful of that.

Kat - I think every announcement brings a bit of a wobble for me. Sometimes a mini-wobble, sometimes a major meltdown wobble (don't worry Waikiki, I'm only sensing a gentle rumble of a wobble over your news ) I've learnt to accept that being happy for someone else doesn't mean you can't feel sadness for your own situation. It's a tricky one though and I'm glad you've been able to work through that.

Nosilab - big hello as always, and well done on the speed pottery. I had an urge over the weekend to take up patchwork quilt making (I've always wanted one) but then my attempts to sew a button on made me have a rethink...

Janie - yay for you for going to the GW meetup. I think if it had been in Edinburgh I could have been tempted to jump on a train too  I haven't sent the letter yet, as cathartic as writing it was I probably need to tone it down a little - it was brutally honest (not in a having a go at them way, just really pouring out my own feelings) and I don't want to come across as being completely unhinged! I had been debating whether to send or not but your encouragement is making me have a rethink, so thank you. The friendships are important to me and I know that in order not to allow my own issues to get in the way long-term I have to be honest with them and hope that they accept me with all my screwy thinking.

I haven't watched the video yet, I had planned to over the weekend but instead spent a lovely day at a chilli festival on Saturday (all things chilli - beer, chutneys, chocolate etc etc) then yesterday dusted my bike off for a blast along some nearby trails then caught the end of the tennis (epic, I cried!). I've saved the link though and will definitely find time this week 

I still feel to be in a world of indecision about our next move. How I feel about it changes on a daily basis (sometimes hourly!). As I'm sure you can all relate DH is complicating things, but in a way I wouldn't have predicted. With every previous round I've tried to encourage DH to take multivitamins, drink less etc etc. It's always been a battle, and one that I inevitably lost - especially any attempt to get him to drink less. When we provisionally booked in for another round later this year I said that *if* we went ahead, I wanted to feel we'd given it our all which would mean taking the vitamins and massively cutting down on booze for the recommended 3 months (it's not that he drinks regularly, but when he does, he really does!). Since then he's taken his vitamins without any protesting (and we've had some humdinger arguments over them in the past), and on Saturday as all his friends drank pint after pint, he limited himself to 3 all day (over a 12 hour period). Last night he said he fancied a glass of wine which I was fine with, but he came back with fruit juice instead. This is unheard of. He's even cut down on caffeine and switched to decaf coffee. I realise it's early days and it might not last but it's really messing with my head. I should be pleased (and I am, even if we don't cycle again it means a huge amount that he's trying) but at the minute I just don't know what I want. What feels right one day tears me apart the next.

I really get that whole sense of tribe too. Where would I fit in? You are all part of my tribe now and I wouldn't want that to change. At the same time the recent challenges with my friends has shown me whatever challenges are thrown at you, if those friendships are important you will do what you can to keep them. I do believe I will eventually find some peace with those friends if I put the work in.

I'm not sure where all this is going! Maybe I need to focus on something simpler, like the when and where of getting us all together . I know that if we do cycle it will be before the end of the year, I can't bear to keep the indecision going longer than that. I would not want to inflict the drug-crazed, or post-cycle me on anyone so for your own safety I would suggest that any dates we start looking at maybe take that into account 

Jen (and yes Janie, I do chuckle when you sign off!)


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Jen - I think its great that your DH is doing his bit now. Actions speak much louder than words for sure and what ever your future holds, you'll remember this was important to him too.

Waikiki - you ok? I hope you are managing to enjoy periods of excitement amongst the shear terror? Thinking of you and hoping your DH is waiting on you hand and foot now you have precious cargo on board.

Janie - I'm glad you went to the meet up. It gives a sense of freedom I think to know you  are surrounded by people who understand.

Nosilab - what did you make then?

MrsP - Valencia you lucky sausage! And winetasting in Valencia sounds even better. 

JBT - xxx

Love to you all, 
Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi ladies
This is going to be a really short post from me because I'm totally shattered. I just felt that I've posted a bit on GW and yet you're the only folks who really know the background to my story and I wanted to update you.

Kat - I'm so massively sorry to read about what a tough time you have been having. I'm really sorry I haven't replied to your post on GW but just wanted to say that I'm really thinking of you right now. This feels so totally inadequate when you provide just so much support to all of us here. Really massive hugs to you.    

Waikiki - as Kat says, I hope you are managing to enjoy the moment... I'm quite certain the fear will prevail but we will all be praying that things are working out for you.   

Mrs P - ah, vino tasting in Valencia... I hope you've had a blast and come home fully refreshed.

Jen - oh I can totally see how your DH's actions would have a massive impact on how you are feeling. I really get that. I guess you just need to take your time and see how your emotions settle. If only we had time on our side, eh? But to me, your recent loss seems well, so recent. 

Nosilab...I hope you're doing good and are potting away and contemplating your decision.

News from me is that 'we' decided not to go ahead with Greece. It was all just so complicated and my heart just wasn't in it. DH and I talked at literally the eleventh hour but I kind of knew I had made my mind up already. I just didn't want to let him off the hook completely. I was surprised by the emotions that overtook me when I was trying to get him to understand just how hard I had worked to ' be ok' and just how awful the last few years have been. I ended up sobbing from a place deep within. I don't cry very often but I was a total mess. Earlier in the day I had sat and read Jody's blog posts from the last year and just cried gently as I read them. I think they were really just tears of recognition and sadness and somehow letting go of it all. 

We still have our NHS round in October if we want it and that is an enormous cushion which I am so very grateful for but the way I feel right now, I suspect this we won't use it. I have moved on quite a bit since I pulled out of Greece in April. I'm hoping that by October I will have moved on much more. But if I haven't then I won't hesitate to go ahead. I have spent the whole day kicking into action a whole load of plans that have been on hold and it feels good. Possibly most importantly, I have signed up to a weekend with Jody in just over a week's time. I decided to use some of the money we will save on the IVF for the purpose. I'll let you know how it goes. It's in London. I have to travel down for my Dad's 80th birthday anyway so I just felt that the timing was perfect. I'm really hoping it's as life-changing as the ladies say it is. You will obviously all be the first to know.

My Sister has landed in the country and is already doing my head in with all manner of 'mummy'-related crap and all I've done so far is speak to her on the phone for 20 minutes. She's turned my Dad's 80th into a party for her kids, talks non-stop about how important it is we all spend quality time with her kids (errr... what about me and her spending some time together as sisters). My Dad has quickly forgotten everything I have done to help him and talks incessantly about what a great mum she is whilst the kids are burning out the motor on my Dad's reclining chair (which I paid for) and generally running riot. But of course I can't criticise any of this because I just look bitter and twisted. I am stricter with my dog. Anyway, that all looks pretty churlish written down but she really is a nightmare. I can tell I'm going to need a lot of support to survive the next couple of weeks. I don't think there could be a worse scenario for the weeks following making such a big decision.

Thinking fondly of you all tonight.
Janie xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Janie - big hugs coming your way. I had guessed you had come to a decision. It's tough and its exhausting but you'll get through it. If you decide you are not quite ready to stop you can always change your mind in autumn. Just test the water for a while first hey. Your thoughts in your sister are not churlish. Feeling let down by a relative is much harder than being let down by a friend. Sisters are supposed to be there for us and i'm sorry yours is such a self absorbed pain in the butt. Know that we are here though for that extra but of support over the next few weeks. It'll be hard tiring work but i know you'll come out the other side even more determined ti find happiness. 

Enjoy your weekends all thats me over and out until next week.
Katxxx

PS. My ramblings on GW are to stay on GW ;-)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Thanks Kat - and totally hear you re:GW, didn't mean to overstep the mark there.
I hope you're blissed out in your cabin and enjoying the sunshine. I seem to spend every night at the moment running around watering gardens (of all the folk with kids who are on holiday... rant!)

Night all xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Janie

It's a huge decision and one you've rightly taken time reaching. It definitely sounds like the overarching feeling for you is that it's the right decision; grieving that decision is only natural and right. You've put so much into this Janie and sound to be investing the same energy and determination into moving forward. Having the NHS cycle is a safety net, a really useful one for where  you are now.

As for your sister - you sound very reasonable to me. Her life is obviously her kids but that shouldn't mean everyone else's is. When I contrast her behaviour to that of my brother's it makes me realise how lucky I am. My brother and his wife have 2 gorgeous children who love to spend time with everyone but who know how to behave, and know that everything does not revolve around them (which makes occasionally spoiling them fun, rather than expected). My brother is also hugely sensitive to where I am with all this and always checks first before arranging time together that I feel ok to be around them. 

I'm hugely jealous of your one to one time with Jodie and will be eagerly waiting for a report back  

I admitted to DH this morning that I don't think I can face another round of IVF. It felt unfair to let him carry on believing that's what I want seeing as he's making real efforts to prepare. Truth is I have no idea what I want other to not feel like this.

Jen


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry Janie, my GW comment didn't refer to your post at all. I was just meaning the specifics of some of my comment but I'm quite sure you all realised what was confidential anyway but I had a sudden panic about it that's all.

More importantly, I wish so much I could whisk you all away to our cabin right now.
Sitting in the sun with my coffee and my view and depression, infertility, selfish sisters, PTSD, anxiety, overwhelmingly important decision making and all the other crap in your lives just don't seem to matter. Being alone and isolated suddenly doesn't hurt because that's the whole point of being here.

We met a lady this morning, we were all out with our dogs, and she is obviously a visitor rather than cabin owner and just commented on how beautiful it was and asked when the cloud berries are usually ready. Seems silly to even mention it to you, but it just reinforced that the world doesn't revolve around having a child in tow. Sometimes just being here is enough.

Anyway, I just popped in to say that I wished you were all here because I think it would make for a truly fantastic weekend.

Love from a slightly melancholy Katxxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello ladies,

I hope the fact that it's so quiet on here is because you're all out and about making the most of the sunshine!

Kat - your cabin sounds idyllic and I wish that we could all be there too - partly because you sounded as if you needed some company and partly because I don't know what the heck a cloud berry is, but they sound great! By the way my friend was telling me the other day that she is thinking of taking up bee keeping and was very impressed to learn that you can get mail order bees 

Janie - It can't have been an easy decision, but if you didn't feel that your heart was in it, then I think that you have made the right choice. I did two cycles in Greece last year and in some ways found them more stressful than the ones I did in the UK, due to the logisitics of organising everything at the right time. Thinking of your NHS cycle as an insurance policy tucked in your back pocket will hopefully give you the security to really examine your feelings over the next few months before you have to make a decision in October - it's definitely better to make a decision when you have options, rather than being forced into a decision when you don't. I also hope that your weekend with Jody will help to firm up in your mind which is the best way forward.



Moonshadow_73 said:


> Truth is I have no idea what I want other to not feel like this.


Jen - that pretty much sums up how I have felt for the last few years, and it's really difficult to make a final decision, when on the one hand you have a certainty: stopping treatment means a childless future, versus an unknown: further treatment could bring you everything you dreamed of, or it could break you a little bit more. Some days a childless future seemed OK and I'd swing towards stopping tx, other days it was unbearable and I decided to try again. It's just so hard to keep on trying when there are never any guarantees of success. If you really feel that you can't take any more, then I hope that at least having some certainty back in your life will help you to move on.

Nosila, JBT and Mrs P  and 

AFM - I was out for a day at the races yesterday with a group of family and friends for my birthday. Amongst the group were a couple (friends of my brother) who I don't know very well, but who I suspect have been going through some IF issues. Married for 4 or 5 years, inevitably the question about children came up fairly early on and I recognised the vague 'hopefully it will happen one day' answer that I have given so many times before when asked the same question - I just wanted to give them both a massive hug, but couldn't because of all the other people there. I have lost count of the number of times I have been in that situation and it makes me angry that such an innocently asked question can cause so much pain, and the lack of awareness other people have of this. Apart from that I had a lovely, if rather sweaty day out(!) but obviously have no golden touch when it comes to picking winners, unlike my 6-year old niece who seems to be a natural!

Got to go now, DH has just cranked up the bbq!

 waikiki


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi all

DH and I were off work last week, what a week we chose (weather-wise!), incredible! We were out and about every day doing something nice, it was much needed for both of us I think.

(OMG! Just checked to see what our cockatiel was up to - he's usually up to no good when left to his own devices! - and he's chewed all the plastic coating off the table lamp cable!! He's such a little s***bag! DH will go nuts when he sees that later!)

Anyway, where was I....as yes...holidays, they were fab! Supposed to be back at work today but managed to get water infection over weekend (great!) so been to docs this morn and now just waiting for nurse to call and tell me prescription is on it's way to the chemist!

Kat, to answer your "what did you make" question, I've been trying to make a replica Peruvian Pre-Columbian owl jug. Long story but I was restoring an original one many years ago and fell in love with it, so DH said "why don't you make your own version?". So I did! He doesn't quite look circa 400 AD but he'll do  The owl that is....not DH! A weekend in your cabin with everyone sounds wonderful! Wish we were all there now 

Jen, did you go with the urge to sign up for patchwork quilt making? I'm absolutely rubbish at hand sewing! But did a short course last year to learn how to machine sew - I'm by no means an expert now but it is fun and very therapeutic! I've made a few easy things. I also attempted to make a patchwork quilt (not finished yet). Go on, give it a go!  I also totally understand your "truth is I have no idea what I want other than to not feel like this", that's where I'm at....still! I also change my mind on an hourly/daily/weekly basis. So it's hard to unscramble it all to try and work out what I _really_ want - there is no straightforward answer is there. You must feel very confused about how your DH was behaving? It's good that he was trying and doing his bit, but a bit out of character I guess? As for the tribe thing, I worry about that too.

Janie, I don't know how you're coping with your sister! I can feel my blood boiling just reading about it all! Hope you manage to get through the next few weeks relatively unscathed! Big decisions for you  I'm very proud of you for getting to that point, I'm in awe of you. As you say, you still have your NHS cycle as your safety net for the autumn, which is brilliant. That gives you some time to mull it all over and hopefully come to a decision you feel comfortable with. What was your DHs reaction when you said no to Greece? Btw, absolutely brilliant news that you've signed up to one of Jody's weekends! What's the title of the weekend? I thought about doing the Reignite weekend in Bristol recently, however, I spoke to Jody and we decided that it wasn't quite the right time for me to do it. She did say about doing it another time (although she won't be running one near me for a few years) and that she often runs them in London, but I told her about me being a London-phobe! 

Waikiki, how are you doing? The day at the races sounds fab! It's difficult isn't it, when you sense someone else is struggling with IF/ttc because you do just want to reassure them and let them know you understand, but hard when it's not public knowledge (or in a busy situation like the races) in knowing how to open a conversation.

AFM, I still keep changing my mind on a daily basis! On one of the days we were out last week, we stopped off for a pub meal on the way home, so as we were on neutral ground I decided to broach the tx chat with DH. It kinda went ok, but absolutely nothing has changed for him (why would it?!) and he's still saying that he's 'happy' to agree to one more cycle if that's what I want but that it's still not what he wants. I tried to explain how hard the decision making process is when it's all down to me, and that I know he doesn't want it, I said it worries me that if we go ahead and it works he'll resent me for it and our marriage will be over (although he always reassures me that won't happen). He thought I was moving on as I often tell him about GW, which he obviously sees as a good thing and a step away from tx, which to him is perfect! In one way I am moving on, I feel differently now to how I did at the start of this year, not having a child doesn't terrify me in the same way it once did, it's sad and heartbreaking but at the same time if it doesn't work I know I'll be ok - eventually. Arrrgghhh it's all just so bloody complicated! Driving back from the docs this morn, I decided I'd call the clinic today, just to get some details/timescales for a FET. Now I'm not so sure again 

Well, as usual it's taken me what feels like forever to write this! And I've probably rambled! Mind you, having to keep getting up to check the bird didn't help! And I'm STILL waiting for the call about my prescription! Hey ho...

Love to all xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

...I've saved a pic of my owl jug as my avatar


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't think I've ever cried as much as I did today in my shrink session. Doing it in English made it harder to know my limits I think. Jeez it was tough. The result is I'm too tired to post really but wanted to say 'wow' about the owl. I'm so impressed nosilab  And Waikiki, a grey horse or even better, a spotty horse always used to get my bet. There were 2 reasons for it. The first is that theyvare cutest, the second us that surely, statistics means that at some point I should win. I'm still in deficit ;-)


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Tears all round today then Kat        Similar posting from me. All cried out today. A million conflicting emotions. I'll post up again when I've recovered. After today I'm not really sure I'm ready for Jody's weekend either... 

Thinking of you all tonight. Nosilab...   ... I understand everything you say about your decision making.


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

(((Hugs))) to you too Janie. Sleep on it before deciding about the weekend. Thinking of you and our matching puffy eyes. Night night xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi girls,

A quick catch-up from me:

Walkiki - When you've been through so much, I think you can recognise the signs so easily with other couples.  Oddly, the only other child-free friends (whom I don't see that often) have had twins about a year ago.  I can't help thinking was it IVF?  I could be off track but they also seemed to go quiet on the 'time for kids isn't it now you are married' blah, blah we all have to go thru. Nuts.  Hope all is going well for you.

Janie - Sounds like you have a plan, and god do I love a plan (honestly, it makes me so happy when I have a plan).  As everyone has said, it was brave to say no to Greece and take the time out until the NHS cycle arrives.  I do hope your sister doesn't give you a hard time - sounds a nightmare.  You've just posted - nothing wrong with being all cried out - I call it championship crying and I'm a gold medal winner!!! Hugs to you sweetie xxx

Kat - How's it going?  Your cabin sounds idyllic - we have a place in Somerset and it's great to go there and get away from everything.  Only thing for me is DH treats it like a DIY fest - he can't stop fixing and mending and improving stuff.. grr!  You've just posted too - massive hugs - well done for lots of crying - my counsellor used to love it when I cried (since I just hold EVERYTHING in).  I'm sure it did some good - I always feel better.  Just make sure you get lots of rest - it's also exhausting xxx

Jen - Qulit making - now that's an idea!  I am trying to both do some new projects and cut back on the ones I'm not enjoying.  I don't feel life is very well balanced and this is a source of stress to me.  I really feel for you as I know what it's like to feel like nothing makes sense.  I think we have all had times at which our decisions flit from place to place.  I'd like to say this calms down, but I've got the insanity of house/job on the move.  Sometimes I really wonder why I just plod on and not just shout STOP!  Perhaps I will one day.

Nosilab - I LOVE YOUR OWL JUG - can you make me one?   Glad you had a nice time away and the weather was gorgeous.  As I was saying above, I think changing your mind every two minutes (or more) seems par for the course.  That's not to dismiss such things, but it was a comfort to me that you have all had moments like this.  I can so relate to what you say about being better able to cope with childlessness but that it's still heartbreaking.  I feel the same this evening.  But it's been a long day and when I'm tired I'm less able to keep myself positive.

AFM - Rough day. Didn't get the job which I'm not that annoyed about.  I'd kinda thought the writing was on the wall when I didn't hear last week.  Plus, I thought about some aspects of the 2nd interview and I couldn't put my finger on it, but something didn't feel right.  So hopefully it's for the best.  I had some very good feedback about 'sorting out' my team and how I've got the 2 deatheaters to do some work for someone (which allegedly people have been trying for years and failed).  So that made me feel quite pleased that I've made a good impression.  However, there's a massive bucket of blood, sweat and tears and it's driven me to breaking point.  I can only hope this is a good enough step change that it will be easier.  My role has been restructured a bit - essentially I've been moved to top dog on an application I've actually used before and not one that I have barely used and they won't train me in.  I still 'own' the latter, but I don't have to be proficient in it.
House-wise, we are in the last 4 weeks of being in our current rental - off to live with 'men behaving badly' which, I'm not best pleased about, but I have accepted it's how it's got to be.  I'm grateful for a roof over our heads with someone we know (better the devil you know).  House purchase is moving on, had the survey, I'd like to cautiously think we might be in by September.
So on the surface, things are good.  In my head - mainly good.  I just feel quite worn out.  I think I need to find some more time to do stuff I want to.  It sounds silly, but I had planned to catch up on housework and chill out on Sunday, the last one I have an opportunity to do so.  But then DH hijacked my plans and made me help clear the garage and write inventories for the storage.  Tonight he had a huge list but I said, I just can't!!  He was accepting of this at least.  And a massive period started today - and it's too hot for a hot water bottle.  And is it just me or is ** full of smiling families and babies all of a sudden!! Sorry, the mask slipped for a second - I've put it back on now!  No, all things considered, I'm coping...

Still loving that Owl Jug!!

Have a good week my friends - keep smiling 

MrsP xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Kat and Janie, big bear hugs coming your way    xxx

MrsP, sorry to hear you didn't get the job, but sounds like things could improve with your current job?  I really hope so.  Your comment about ** just confirmed why I closed my account - phew, glad I'm outta there!  MrsP, I can't remember but has anyone told you about Gateway?  I may have mentioned it to you and maybe you said it's not your thing, but I just can't remember?

Kat and MrsP, thank you very much re my little owl!  That gave me a real confidence boost and made me smile, thank you  

xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - I'm still marveling at your owl. I thought you pottered like my friend who makes wonky plates that are infuriating to eat from, not a proper artist. It really is cool.

MrsP - it's ok to take the mask off sometimes xxx sounds like you need a bit of time out. My DH is forever pottering at the cabin too but thankfully its all boys projects so I'm left in peace.

Anyway, quick question and I could do with some advice - don't panic it's not hardcore in depth emotional stuff ;-) I haven't been ill in about 20 years so I'm not really sure what the signs are! One of my lymph glands in my groin is massive, not just a little bump, but the whole side is swollen and sore. I suspect sore because I keep poking it to see if it still hurts. DH wants me to go to the Dr but I think it's nothing important. It caused a row this morning over my selfishness (don't ask how that works). It's a 3 weeks wait for an appt unless its an emergency but a swollen gland is hardly an emergency is it? I am also struggling to hold things together and if I see my gp he will if course ask how things are going and I can't face that. So, is having the elephant man living in your pants worthy of a drs appt?


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Kat - get an emergency appointment. Not because I think it's an emergency (I know zero about lymph glands) but because I 100% know the feeling of prodding something until the point that you have no idea what the swelling is from. People get emergency appointments with GPs for way less than this. If your GP asks too much and you really don't want to go there today then can you just close him down? 

Go to the docs and put your mind at rest.

Nosilab... am slightly more in the land of the living today. Wow - you're potting is inspiring!! Seriously, I have the creative ability of a gnat. But I love that other people can create such beautiful things. It must be so satisfying. Does it feel good to be potting again? 

Right, last day with my niece and nephew. The kids are absolutely lovely but the full-on family scenes have been deeply painful. That the kids look like me and we're in my house and village and doing all the things I thought we might do one day... you ladies don't need any more explanation... But then yesterday they went out for the day and my old life resumed and that was pretty nice too. I think the thing is that when families come to stay, it's ALL about them. They might be in my house and village but my sister really isn't seeing anything of my life. That's OK, but I think while they are here it just makes me feel empty because it's all about the kids... and errr.. we don't have kids. But then when they go, my life can resume. 

Better go. 
Janie xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks Kat!    I do make stuff on the wheel too (bowls, plates, mugs etc)...hopefully not too wobbly though  

Hmm re the elephant man in your pants!  I would say it's definitely worthy of an appointment.  If it takes 3 weeks to get an appt then that gives you time to see if it changes (gets smaller/bigger).  It definitely worth getting it checked out for sure, if it's nothing then great, but if it needs treating then best get it sorted.....get it booked!


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Good to hear you're feeling a bit brighter today Janie.  Re the pottery, I have been doing it on and off since I was about 16, so I've had a good head start.  I find it very therapeutic and even though I sometimes have to give myself a real good kick up the bum with doing it, I nearly always enjoy it and feel better afterwards


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

I was coming on here for a proper catch up but I'm not sure I can now. I just had a weird experience and replying to a post on GW which was maybe a bit to close to home as set off my anxiety big time. I'm really dizzy  and panicked. My friend is on her way round which is such bad timing. 

So no proper catch up but love to you all and xxx and hugs.

Katxxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Kat - wish I'd seen this earlier - I really hope you are feeling better by the time you read this.  Panic attacks are no fun at all.  If you are still pondering the GP - do it.  It will put your mind at rest.  Big hugs xx

Janie - oh I can sooo relate about families and it being all about them - whenever my folks come to stay, we seem to establish their daily routine in my home.  I almost seem to let it happen and get really angry with myself - honestly!!  Thankfully, my DH's family (the side who has kids) are much more accommodating!  We do something to suit us all.  Glad you are feeling a bit better today xx

Nosilab - Yes, GW is something I've thumbed thru - just not sure if I'm ready for the whole hog yet.  You have to enter the forum using Google+ profile don't you?  Is it still private to outsiders?  It's this bit that puts me off.  I have no problem with my FF friends knowing who I am, it's just some of the big bad world out there!  Still loving the owl... xx

AFM - a bit of a strange day.  Got into work and, amongst other emails was one form recruitment saying the 'unsuccessful on this occasion' was a miscommunication and they are still considering... bizarre.  DH reckons I'm second choice and they are seeing if the first choice falls through.  Me and my BIG LEO personality automatically assumes I have it in the bag LOL.  Time will tell - it cheered me up a bit though.  Alongside going clothes shopping and buying 3 dresses (doubling the dress count of my wardrobe I think).  Can't believe I have only 3 weekends left in this house... anyway, bed calls!!

Love to all - including those just reading!!

MrsP xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh Kat, that's not good!  How are you feeling today?  Such a shame that you had a bad experience with GW  

MrsP, yes GW is still a private forum, so the content can't be found through a search engine (so I'm led to believe), so only those who have requested to join (via Jody) can read/post    Wow!  Brilliant news on the job front, so you're still in with a chance then!  Btw, I'm a Leo too, not sure I always live up to the Leo traits though?!

Hi and hugs to all xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

MrsP - good news about the job. My good friend is a Leo too so I know what you mean ;-) She would in fact have been shopping and spent the salary increase straight after the interview ;-) Sounds good though, new job or the improved old job  If anyone you know in the real world was to find you on GW then it would be because they were childless too so it could turn out to be a good thing. With 500 members across the world though, it's pretty unlikely you'd see someone you know.

Lots of love to the rest of you. I'm sorry to have only skim read your posts but I just can't face any IF or emotional type stuff right now. I feel very delicate and fragile and not brave enough to expose myself to anything at all 'difficult' - sorry :-( My gland is going down and my osteopath saw all my mosquito and knat bites and reckons that's why my gland swelled up. It's going down now. I'm away I the UK for 5 days from Friday and planning not to connect to any wifi and take a break from the things that suddenly hurt more than they should. Obviously you'll all be in my thoughts and I'll be looking forward to coming back for a proper catch up.

Take care all,
Katxxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Take care Kat, thinking of you as always.  We'll all be waiting for you when you return    Hope you have a good journey to the UK   xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Evening ladies, just about to get on sleeper to London for Jody weekend. Been reading all your posts, kust not had chance to write myself. Last week has been really tough. Hoping the weekend will help get me through the family fest that follows. Fully expecting it to be emotional torture. Got loads i'd like to chat to you all about but literally had no time. Hopefully catch up next week. Thinking of you all though and noticing all your posts. Hugs to you all. Xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Lovely Kat - thinking of you too - take the time you need x
Janie - hope the weekend is good - let us know how it goes, hope the family keep in order!!! x

Not much from me - packing, packing, packing house into storage.  Arguing lots - keeps things feisty to say the least!!  No news on job - so I hope this is because I'm at least a 2nd or 3rd choice.  Work going well.

Back to arguing, oops, packing!  Happy weekend everyone! xxx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorry I missed your post Janie.  I really hope you found your weekend with Jody beneficial - albeit emotionally exhausting I'm sure.

MrsP, house moving is awful isn't it!  It'll be worth it in the end, but I don't envy you this part!  Hope it's all going well apart from the odd little spat?!

Well, I called the clinic last week, and was told that if I want to get going with my FET I can start on 2nd Aug    Have no idea still, I feel like I'm in a bit of a daze to be honest - wandering around like a zombie, just going through the motions.  As we all said before about flitting from one decision to another on an almost hourly basis....that's where I'm at!!  Feels like it's sending me a bit  

Hi to Jen, Waikiki, JBT and of course anyone else out there reading.....

Hugs to all xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Nosilab - hmmm, nothing like focussing the mind eh?  Any strong feelings one way or another?? xx

AFM - Got rejected from job - however, was in the last 2, and if I'd been the cheaper - the role would have been mine - grr! So can't say fairer or nicer than that.  Very pleased really.  They also said there are some other jobs I should look at 'on the boards' and they'd recommend me to the recruiting managers if I went for them.  And then in current job, one of the pains in the butt is leaving the team for definite & I am no longer expected to do out of hours support - HOORAY!!  So not bad.
Packing.  A nightmare but got lots done over the weekend.  Went to BBQ yesterday - drank too much.... silly me!

Lots of Love MrsP xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Ah so sorry to hear you didn't get the job MrsP, but good feedback, at least you know why so they'll be no wondering "what if".  Great news re the pain the butt leaving in your current job, that's got to be a small bonus?  I wish the pain in the butt where I work would leave and then I would have to think about leaving so much!!  Can't see it happening any time soon sadly.  Sounds like you let your hair down at the BBQ, much needed I'm sure with all the other stuff going on!

Arrrhhhhh stupid iPad just gave me a bloody news alert on 'the royal birth' ffs!!

No, still no strong feelings for me one way or the other....well, I tell a lie....I do have strong feelings but I just keep changing my mind!! The latest feeling being "I'm not going to do the FET and just try and move on".  I bet by tomorrow morn I'll have changed my mind again!  

xxx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Yes, we'll have to endure at least a month of Royal Baby news.  Hurts a bit as my last cycle coincided with Kate and her morning sickness - so a timely reminder that if things had gone well... I would be due in a few weeks.  But ho-hum!

It's hard to decide what to do - I really feel for you.  I was thinking 'never in a million years will I do IVF again" then a close friend admits she's gonna have one last shot and I think.... wellllll... perhaps.... then I go back to thinking never in a million years... but I also am more and more comfortable with NO decision and just taking whatever will be - but that isn't easy either.

I *did* enjoy myself yesterday.  But it's crazy that I feel guilty still for letting my hair down when I'm on the verge of potentially ovulating.  It just never leaves you really - the spectre of conceiving!  But good fun, felt like ME again and didn't flinch when asked if 'kids were on the agenda'.  Just a non-commital 'who knows...'.  And I didn't even get wound up.  So perhaps (or at least this week) I am making progress!!

Good luck with deciding - I won't suggest flipping a coin - although sometimes I use that to help 'centre the mind' - i.e. if I am disappointed as to what 'heads' represents - it helps me focus.


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Evening ladies,

I'm feeling very guilty that I haven't posted for a while, although I have been reading regularly.  This is another flying visit as I'm off to the cinema in a minute, but just wanted to pop my head in and say hello.

A couple of quick messages:

Nosila - LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your owl - wow I wish I could make something as good as that.  Sadly my pottery experience began and ended with a very lopsided piggy bank made at school when I was about 10.  I seem to remember that the slot wasn't actually big enough to fit any coins in....

Janie - I really hope that your weekend with Jody has helped you in your decision making process, or at least given you some optimism and and a bit of peace for whatever lies ahead.  I'd love to hear all about it, when you feel ready.

Sorry, no time for more now but I'll be back soon I promise.

 waikiki


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Waikiki - summer is great for keeping us all busy so none of us are here much but it'll be a different story when the rain comes I reckon. I refused the movies last night and insisted on dinner out on the river instead due to paranoia about summer ending. I think my friend wished we'd done movies though after listening to me whining on all night lol,


Nosilab - I really feel for you trapped in the horrible decision making process ...... why can't somebody just tell us what the right answer is :-( Thinking of you.


MrsP - sounds like its good news on the job front with loads of potential opportunities. And of course you are making progress and nothing wrong with the odd hangover now and again ovulation or not xxx


Janie - I'm sure your weekend was a real rollercoaster of huge highs and terrible lows. I hope you came through it ok though?


Jen - I hope you are busy enjoying the sun? 


Lots of hugs to anyone just reading too xxx


Much begging and stupid difficult promises mean I've not been readmitted this week. Things are tough and I'm not really coping very well. We just went swimming with pooch though and it gave me some peace for a while and I think I was genuinely ok for a bit. I love swimming with him and he is very cute when he thinks I need saving. We go to the mountains tomorrow night and I'm hoping it provides some miracle cure as I have an re- assessment when I get back so need to prove I can function normally ......... lol ............ anyone even know what normal is ...........


Katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

hello ladies

just a quick one from me... am finding it a little tricky to remember what I've said and where. I think I'm long overdue a big catch up on here but sadly not got time just now. Those of you on GW will probably have a little flavour of how things have been for me. Kat - you were spot on - massive  highs and lows. The reignite weekend was really fantastic - I've never felt such an instant connection to a group of women. I was crying within about 10 mins of introductions (but so was everyone else) but lots of laughter too. Fantastic to be so understood. I really haven't had any time to reflect yet because of the family-fest that followed but it will come. I definitely took some new ways of looking at things. Jody is really great in so many ways ... as you would expect. I'll tell you more as soon as I get a chance... but until then...

Kat - been thinking about you... I think you said you were in London (England??) at the weekend ... how was that. Sounds like you've had a real tough time. I hope the cabin provides it's usual dose of soothing calm ... and if not then pooch comes to the rescue. It's funny, the first time I cried on the course was when one of the girls was talking about how much comfort her wee pup had been... was blubbing with recognition! 

Nosilab - oh I really feel for you. I've been in that place too many times over the last few months and it's just so horrific. I don't have to think about it again now until October when our NHS round comes up - it's such a relief. I wish I had some kind of answer but I don't. I'm sending you a huge hug though.

Waikiki - I don't know where you're at and whether you may have had your early scan by now. I am so hoping that everything is going smoothly for you. xxx

Mrs P - ah, rubbish about the job but glad your current job is getting a bit more manageable. And hey, everyone deserves some carefree bevvies so don't be fretting about that. I've been relatively unscathed by the royal-baby news but largely because I haven't been in the office much to hear all their nonsense. Whole thing just seems absurd to me. 

Jen - about to reply to your post on GW... see you over there xxx

JBT - I wonder if you're still reading. Still thinking about you hon. I hope you're doing OK.

Pretty zonked tonight, am sure I've missed folk but just wanted to pop in and say hello. I would still love an 'enough is enough' meet-up at the right time... 

Take care all - I thought about you all a lot over the weekend.

Janie xx


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## MrsPootle (Sep 21, 2010)

Seems a bit quiet on here!

Anyway, I've taken the plunge and joined GW, did a quick 'here's me' this morning.  Bit overwhelmed by it all actually.  Crazily - the thing I'm *most* overwhelmed by is the choices I have sans-kids!  Having a bit of a time of it again.  Nothing too bad, but a bit up and down.  Got loads of packing to get everything into storage by the 6th.  Physically, my ankles are playing up so actually moving around is difficult.  Gone back to bootcamp though, just all core work - ha!  Mentally, well, I know I shouldn't, but the royal baby has managed to get me feeling sorry for myself.  Plus, early August is difficult as that's when my little one would had been 3 had my pregnancy continued.  Difficult.  And, I'd hoped for a stress free birthday on 17th at the V festival.  It will be good I'm sure, but living round at my DH's mates - well, I'm not sure I'm in the right place for house sharing.  But encouraging news on that front - there is a suggestion we are looking around the end of August / start of September so it shouldn't be long.

Anyway, can't put it off any longer - got to do 2 hrs of frantic kitchen packing.
Hope you are all well - Janie - be interested to hear how re-ignite went!

Lots of love MrsP xx


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

It does seem a bit quiet on here at the mo.....

MrsP, so glad you joined us 'over there', I'm sure you'll find loads of support.  Sounds like you're going through a really tough time at the mo, a lot going on, emotionally and physically  

Thank you for the love and thoughtful words Kat and Janie xx

Been on a steam train to Weymouth today, was good fun!  And the sun stayed out for us all day (right up until we got back on the train to come home) even though they forecast rain!  Good times  

Hugs to all xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey ladies

I've been kind of lurking, I think I got stuck with the idea that in order to 'move on' I had to throw myself into GW, forgetting that the process started here and that here offers something different from GW. That something is unique and special and I don't want to lose that.

It sounds like we're all still very much on the roller-coaster, with big decisions/changes/challenges ahead. I think I've avoided posting about some of those for fear of sounding like a broken record, yet when I read each of your posts I'm glad that you all share here and that it still brings comfort to each and every one of us. 

MrsP - it's lovely to see you on GW. Even if I hadn't known it was you your positivity and kick-ass attitude shines through  . It's great to finally 'see' one another too. It really does sound like you have a lot going on at the minute, throw in the baby-mania in the press at the minute and the completely understandable sadness you feel at what could have been and it's no wonder you perhaps feel a bit out of kilter. It's okay to acknowledge that you know? 

Nosilab - I can only echo the others here. I've lost count of the number of times I've changed my mind about another cycle. Each time I do it feels right for all of about 10 minutes then a wall of grief, panic, fear hit - neither option feels right anymore. Nor can I seem to park it. I don't mean to make this an all about me reply, I guess I'm just saying me too and that I understand how bloody awful it feels. I hope yesterday gave you an escape from it all for the day (and ps, I love you owl - that's how long it is since I've posted, shocking!).

Janie - are you still in the midst of the tortuous family visit? I have huge respect for you in that way you've managed it and I hope you can get some normality back soon (whatever that is?!). I would imagine that it's been a hugely draining time (add in the reignite weekend which I can hear in your post was brilliant but probably exhausting!) so I hope you're making time for yourself to just be.

Kat - as always I'm sending lots of love. I know there are no easy answers to where you are at the minute but each day at a time... Hang onto those moments of feeling ok, it's easy to lose sight of those sometimes. And don't drink all that Kir Royale, I'm counting on sharing a glass someday soon  

Waikiki - Hope you're doing okay, I'm really pleased you are still posting here  

AFM - I'll not dwell on that too much! I did meet up with 3 GW ladies on Friday. Each completely different but lovely in their own way. It was a fun evening and it was such a relief not to feel on guard, I hadn't realised just how much I brace myself for the casual comment about someone's children at the minute. There was some talk about the not being mum's and it was honest but not painful, but there was also lots of chat about other things too - it felt like it wasn't just about being childless together. I suspect we'll meet again and whilst I'm not sure I necessarily connected strongly with any of them it helped mitigate some of the panic I'm having over my rapidly dwindling pool of childless friends!

Love to all of you xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Hello - I've just experimentally sent a message through google+ to all of you just to make sure it's private. iPad and google+ are both a bit new and fancy for me ;-)


I've had too much to drink to post properly but I will do in a couple of days when we are back from our fishing and camping trip. 


Been thinking of you all though but I'm just not quite able to put things down in writing just yet. Jen has helped me clear my head a little so I'll hopefully be back with bells on soon enough. While I'm gone though, my bees have done a great job and I've got far too many currants and gooseberries this year, so if any of you have recipes for yummy stuff that'll not make me even fatter, then please share 


Love katxxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hi Kat - I haven't received a message but it's possible that my mastery of google+ is less than yours! Would I get a message through gmail? I'm glad Jen's been looking out for you. I've been feeling a bit inadequate in responding to you all of late as just seem to be lurching from one thing to the next. But I am thinking of you all. Too many gooseberries?? Not possible! I made gooseberry and raspberry jam yesterday - looks yum anyway!

I know I keep saying this but I'll be back on here as soon as I get a chance to give a proper update. Keen to share my reignite experience... although wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone! 

Hugs to you all
xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

and Jen... please don't hold back from posting for fear of sounding like a broken record. If there is one place where you shouldn't feel worried about that then it's here.  I hate the thought of you withdrawing because you have a misconception that it will bring us down. I think I maybe have a tendency to post when I'm feeling a bit more upbeat because.... well that is the unusual state and one which generally takes me by surprise and so maybe I feel it's important to document it ... or something! I woke up feeling extremely down this morning...(I was set off by something last night) like first really big downer in a long time... one when I was counting the days down to my NHS round. Actually, the grief was pretty overwhelming and shocked me somewhat. Kinda took me back to a very dark place that I had almost forgotten about. In fairness, it didn't last that long and I guess that is the difference between then and now. But anyway, my point is that we all understand and it never ever sounds like a broken record. Far from it. I'm glad your meet up went well. I probably felt the same on my Glasgow meet-up in terms of not really having that strong a connection with anyone but I did really click with the reignite girls... but possibly just a matter of circumstance. I've decided that it's really important for me to make time for these things for the next few years (at least), not least because I'm hoping that some lasting friendships / playmates may develop. But even if not, I think part of taking care of ourselves right now is finding people who get it. 

And yes, I'm through the other side of my family visit. Spending time with my niece and nephew put a whole new perspective on things for me. I guess I just don't hang out with children much and so I'd not realised how great they can be at that age... and so a whole new loss appeared. I had always assumed that if I could just get through the baby / toddler years then I would be OK but now I can see that it will just go on.... and I need to focus on my own plans in order to fill a potentially massive gap. The reignite weekend was really helpful for evaluating all this... I just need to find some proper time to reflect on it all. We have tonnes of holiday coming up but planning on getting away. I've promised DH that I'll take a break from forums and I think he's probably right. 

Big hug to you
xxx


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## janie73 (Jul 28, 2011)

nosilab... and a quick one to you too honey... I know you must be reaching final decision time... I hope your head isn't about to explode with it all. Thinking of you as I know just how hard this bit is when you've made SO much progress in terms of moving on... and everything we've discussed over the last 70 or so pages. Whatever decision you make, I hope you can set about making it the right decision.

Big hug xx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Evening ladies,

I'm glad that you're back, I've missed you!

Kat - Enjoy the rest of your camping trip and come back and tell us how you are whenever you're ready. I'm glad that Jen has been helping you and you know that we're all here for you if we can help.  I am also drowning in redcurrants and am thinking of trying this recipe at the weekend: http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/3113/redcurrant-and-red-onion-relish - but as it has to mature for 3 weeks I don't think I'll be able to give you any immediate feedback on how good it is!

Janie - well done for surviving the family weekend.  I think you're right to realise that making lifelong friendships isn't necessarily essential at this stage, just meeting new people who 'get' where you are and how you are feeling and being able to share those feelings with them can help to ease the burden of grief that you are feeling. I'm sorry that you've been feeling down, and as inadequate as it sounds, I'm sending you   

Jen - don't ever feel that you can't post here, for fear of repeating yourself. I think that we have all been on the journey long enough to know that these feelings don't just go away. God knows sometimes we wish that they would, but they only ever go away for a certain time before a trigger brings them all flooding back again. Sometimes I used to bore myself with feeling the same old anger and grief over and over again, but the fact is we've all been there and we all understand it. We will never get tired of hearing from you, particularly if we can help you to feel stronger and less sad. 

Nosila - thinking of you too hun and the difficult decision that I know you are grappling with at the moment.  

 waikiki


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Hi lovely ladies

Jen, I'm so pleased the meet up went well and that you had some good chat with a few giggles mixed in for good measure!  I'm not sure it's always about making new lifelong buddies, but more about finding that connection with others who just 'get it' without the painful explanations.  You never know, maybe over time some of those friendships might grow and/or new people join the group - GW seems ever expanding at the mo, which is great and very reassuring!  I can only reiterate what the others have said, please don't ever worry about sounding like a broken record!  You couldn't be further from the truth, and it actually reassures me about the way my own mind and thoughts work (or not sometimes, as the case may be!!) - as we clearly all feel the same.

Kat, so pleased that Jen has been there for you and is helping guide you to a brighter place.  She's an amazing lady!  She's helped me lots too.  In fact everyone on here is wise and wonderful.  I know you won't believe that at times, but trust me....you all give so much and give such amazing support!  Love the fact your bees have been working so hard for you!  I have to say your life lifestyle sounds absolutely idyllic.

Janie, I'm really looking forward to hearing about your Reignite weekend!  Sounds like it was a very positive experience for you, which is great to hear.  You wouldn't be spoiling anything for me as sadly I don't think I'll get the opportunity to get to one of her weekends now as they're only going to be run in London for the next few years (she didn't think I was in the right place to attend the Bristol one) and I really don't relish the thought of a weekend in London!  My worst nightmare!  Thank you soooo much for your lovely message!  You're very very thoughtful  

Lovely to hear from you Waikiki, hope you're well?

JBT??  

AFM - well, I guess my decision just sort of happened in that I just didn't get around to calling the clinic back.  For some reason (deep down uncertainty/reluctance?!) I just kept putting it off, for a combination of reasons it's also been a bit hectic at home recently. If I'd been in this situation 3 months ago I'd have been on the phone to the clinic like a shot, booking in and collecting meds!  What's happened?!  I have no idea myself, so I don't expect anyone else to know!  I told DH yesterday that I hadn't called the clinic and his response was "well, it's not surprising with everything that's been going on, and it's probably best to leave it until after your birthday now anyway" which of course is both very true and sensible.  But I wasn't surprised by his response, he was never going to be disappointed that I hadn't called!  He wants me to (obviously!) go towards to GW option.  Having done some lovely things together recently I have to say I've really enjoyed it and often thought "this would be impossible and/or not enjoyable with a child in tow!".  Am I feeling more positive about being childfree?  Am I seeing the light at the end of the childfree tunnel?  I have no idea!  Maybe this is just temporary and by next week I'll be a crumbling wreck.  Maybe this is the beginning of the end in terms of the IF/tx hellish nightmare.  I still have no idea.  I guess I'm just living for the moment and taking each day as it comes.  I do still have down moments, but weirdly they seem few and far between at the mo.  I am still in a dilemma about what to do about a FET cycle but my head doesn't feel like it's about to explode.  I guess I've just taken the pressure off myself a bit in terms of making a final decision, so even though I'd personally like to come to a firm decision by the end of this year, we are only in August, so I still have a few months  

Anyway, it's my birthday on Saturday and I plan to enjoy it and do something nice - especially as my 40th last year was so sh*te and I cried nearly all day!  No big party (cancelled), no baby, turning 40, best friend (also 40) 5 months pregnant blah blah blah! So this year DH and I are off to the coast and then for a meal.  The steam train to Weymouth was a birthday treat and was just what I/we needed.  A relaxing, restful time at the coast in the sunshine - bliss!

Well I think I've rambled on for long enough and you've probably all dozed off by now!  

Thinking of you all (even those not posting and only lurking) xxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Kat - a few of us got the message on GW but although it is privately shared it seems to get lost amongst all the other posts, I only stumbled on it by accident. I've tried the 'hang-out' feature so we'll see if you and Janie see that...

Waikiki - I know if the tables were turned I would be saying the same thing but sometimes it's hard to take that message for ourselves. And yes, being able to share it here and get the support you all so willingly give helps massively, so thank you  

Janie - those dips in mood can really catch you out can't they? Whatever the trigger they are really quite awful and I'm glad that it was short-lived. It sounds like your time away is coming at just the right time for you. As wonderful as these forums are (and I genuinely don't know how I would have got through the past months without you all) it's probably healthy to sometimes take a step back and restock. To sit and listen to what's going on internally instead of always trying to figure it all out. You will be missed! We'll be thinking of you and awaiting your return  

Nosilab - It may feel like you didn't actively make a decision, and maybe you still haven't but listen to how calm you are about it! Being ok with living for the moment and taking things a day at a time is huge progress. It's what we often tell ourselves, and each other, to do but to actually live it is massive. Maybe it will be temporary (and hopefully not) but the thing is you've seen how it can be, you can get that back again. I actually wonder if it might not be about making a final decision by a certain date, but more a case of gradually moving away from it until you realise that actually you have a life you're happy with and that it feels enough. Having those deadlines can be so panic-inducing at times.

I can hear how lonely and heart-breaking your 40th was for you, it's lovely to hear that this year was so different and that you did what you wanted and needed to do - Happy Birthday for tomorrow, I will raise a glass to you  . 

What you wrote really resonated. I will turn 40 on Boxing Day. Had the last cycle worked I would have been due a couple of weeks before my birthday, and 40 was always my cut-off for treatment. I'll also have 2 close friends who will be 7 and 8 months pregnant, both of whom I will see over Christmas (one lives locally and we always have a girl's Christmas dinner, the other lives down South and her and other old school friends meet up over Christmas, usually at my parents house on Boxing Day). I don't think I need to explain how the prospect of this all makes me feel (and has done for a while in case you were worried your post set this off!). But - I've decided to figure out what  it is I need. I've already told DH that I can't celebrate it this year, that I'll celebrate turning 41 instead (that works particularly well seeing as he should be earning by then so can really make up for it!). I'm working up to telling my friends too - there are several joint 40th in the planning and I just can't face that. I know that had I not had FF and GW to help figure out how to start asking for what I needed I would have tried to suck it up, put on a brave face and probably fallen apart in the process. 

Thank you ladies, you're all brilliant and help so much. To hear I might have given some of you some of that back feels massive right now. I've really struggled with feeling like I'm letting friends down in how I've reacted to their pregnancy announcements etc so it was just what I needed to hear. xx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Nosilab - I'm on holiday, its supposed to be idyllic! I can assure you though that my everyday life if far from that though, although I do have some wonderful places to escape the rat race when I need. As for not calling the clinic, that's what I did too. I was supposed to call for my FET in December 2011 and I still haven't called! Jen us right though in that there is no day where you suddenly decide to stop (for me anyway), it was more a day where I realised that I had stopped wanting more treatment. It wasn't that I decided I was ok with being childless, just didn't want any more heartbreaking treatment. I know in my heart I'll never go back for FET, the only reason we've not destroyed the frostie is because I have to be declared mentally fit enough to make the decision. Would you do a reignite weekend if one of us was there to meet you at the station etc or is it the whole being in London thing? I remember you talking about it before.

Janie - I think that a good way to gauge how you are coping with something is not how often it causes you distress, but how quickly the distress passes, so it sounds like you are doing ok. Hopefully a lovely long holiday will give you lots of time to reflect on what you need and want for yourself and a couple.

Jen - nosilab's birthday escape might be a good solution for you? I think the thing with grief is that we have to just keep talking about it until it stops hurting, that's how we heal. But the responses we give each other are probably very dependent on where we all are at that time so going over the same pain us a good thing because you'll get different words from us each time so you can pick and choose what you need to hear.

Waikiki - relish sounds good. All I can think of is cakes and after seeing a photo DH took of me in my bikini yesterday, I need a break from the cake!

MrsP - I think the royal baby got to all of us :-( Can you believe I was unlucky enough to spend a weekend in the uk just when the baby is born ...... perfect timing hey?! Maybe house sharing is almost a good thing in that it gives you a break from over analysi g your thoughts and feelings, almost like a holiday from yourself?

Happy birthday nosilab.
Google+ hangout I'll investigate tomorrow since I need an app apparently and it'll take me hours to download it here. 

I am having a wee wibble. We are camping and its fab. The dog was getting bored though so DH has paddled off to the mainland to walk him since our island is tiny. I opted to stop here because I fancied some time alone but it wasn't my best plan and too much thinking time is proving to be difficult and is hurting me quite a lot. Nothing I can do though unless I fancy a very long swim. Hopefully they'll be back soon.

Love to you all, katxxx


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## Moonshadow_73 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey Kat - would a bit of Mindfulness help? I'm guessing there's lot of beautiful things to focus on where you are - from tiny bugs to the sound of the water lapping on the shore...


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Jen, i think all i needed to do was tell somebody because as soon as i'd dritten my post, told you guys how i felt and thought about all if you for a bit, i felt ok again.
And yep, loads of bugs, most if them with teeth!!! 
Anyway, we packed up and headed back to the cabin after a sneaky check if the weather forecast. Thunder and lightening and torrential rain in a canoe was not very appealing. 
I hope you are all a lot drier than I am xxx


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## Nordickat (Feb 6, 2009)

Happy birthday nosilab xxx I hope you have a really really fabulous day filled with good food, good wine and good cake. And I hope you don't have to share your DH with anyone else this weekend xxx


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## waikiki (Aug 11, 2010)

Happy Birthday Nosila!! I hope you are having the wonderful day that you deserve this year.


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## Nosilab (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks lovely ladies, I had a wonderful day yesterday for my birthday - it certainly made up for my 40th!  

Kat, I'm really not sure about the London Reignite    I would feel happier (with a small 'h') meeting up with one of you ladies but I'd still have to get there.  I don't know, just the thought of being in London fills me with dread and actually makes me feel quite anxious (another of my silly phobias!), I know my worries really hold me back    Hope those insect bites aren't too bad?!

Jen, you most definitely have helped me since we met on here, I remember when you first PM'd me, it felt like we instantly had things in common.  You always had (and still have) wise and comforting words.  I know exactly what you mean when you say you feel you're letting friends down re their pregnancy announcements and babies, I feel the same, I'm always telling DH that I'm a rubbish friend!  But I have to remind myself that my feelings and reactions are normal.  If it feels right for you then I think it's very sensible to save your big birthday celebrations until next year.  I was in such a different place this year for my birthday than I was last year!  Last year felt so false, putting on the smiley face because everyone was expecting me to be happy and wanting to celebrate my big 4-0!  But I just wanted to hide in a hole!  Had my treatment worked I'd have been 8 months pregnant for my 40th, but it wasn't to be, and instead my friend was 5 months pregnant, my world felt like it had fallen apart.  How different this year was!  Ok, so I'm not over the moon about still being childless and it still hurts, but I WAS happy and I DID want to celebrate my birthday and do something nice.  As we were out and about yesterday I felt really happy and even said to DH "this really makes up for my 40th last year.  I'm making this my pretend 40th!".  Do whatever feels right for you Jen, and please don't worry about what others think.

Love to all xxx


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