# 'normal' embryo development, age 40



## Claire149 (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi there
I am having an early m/c after our 2nd IVF. This is our 3rd loss in nearly 2 years (1 ectopic and 2 chemical pgs).
I have recently turned 40.
I am looking for some info on the embryos we made and how they developed. It is 2 weeks until our review appt for the clinics view and I was wondering what other womens experiences are. I was recently diagnosed with endo and was on Prostap, downregging for 3 months before this cycle to minimise the endo and hopefully improve egg quality.
We got 7 eggs and 6 fertilised.
Their development went like this:
    day 2--> day 3
1. 4 cell --> 8 cell, grade 1, transferred
2. 4 cell --> 8 cell, grade 1, transferred
3. 4 cell --> 4 cell (arrested)
4. 2 cell --> 4 cell, grade 2/3, transferred, bit slow
5. 2 cell --> 4 cell
6. 1 cell --> 4 cell 

We were pleased to have 2 grade 1 embies but we now think there must have been something wrong with them because they resulted in a chemical even though we were told they were 'perfect' looking. The clinic wouldn't freeze the remaining embies.

I actually think 2 may have implanted originally as I was feeling nauseus from 6dp3dt, had a strong +ve HPT on 9dp3dt, that went lighter then darker again over the next few days.

Is it 'normal' for our age group (or even for any age group) to have such a variation in embryo quality/development.
We will be trying naturally until our next IVF in March but I feel the odds are stacked against us.
Is it time to think of DE yet?

Would really appreciate your honest opinions.

Thank you!
Claire
x


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## cat68 (Apr 11, 2008)

Hello Claire fellow 40 year old!!

I'm so sorry for your m/c's, it's so hard to get your head round it.  Unfortunately I know where your coming from.  

I had a icsi last June and 2 grade 1 embryo's were transferred which resulted in a mc/biochemical pg. I had some frosties left over and had 2 * 3 cell grade 1/2 and 8 cell grade 1 transferred in Aug which again resulted in an early m/c. The consultant told me afterwards that although the embies were good quality I was 39 and the quality detoriates as we age. She did say that it did bode well for future tx as they had implanted though.

Well here I am back at the clinic and waiting for FET no 2. It will be on monday and I have 2 embies left grade 1/2 4 and 5 cell. 
The doc said that if I have another m/c or BFN then to ask my GP for a hysteroscopy to check if there are any other issues other than embryo quality that's stopping me from getting pg. Maybe if you enquire with your Gp about it and see if you can be referred to a specialist. 

Good luck with tcc naturally and also with your IVF in March. Personally DE is not an option for me and I will try with own eggs for a while yet, but I've heard good things from ladies that have had DE. Obviously the donor is younger and the chances of a successful pg are about 60% at some clinics.

Best wishes
Cat xx


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## lily17 (Sep 25, 2008)

Im 43, and had 9 eggs, 6 fertilised, 3 grade 1.... 3 implanted..... BFN 
then 5 eggs , 4 fertilised, 2 grade 1...2  implanted.....BFN  
Ive been PG 5 times in my life, and every time naturally, VERY easily, resulting in 3 kids ( 1 termination and 1 MC)...so Im gobsmacked that Ive had 5 Grade 1 embies implanted and none have even resulted even in chem pg Doc say they must be dodgy inside but look ok on the outside...he says is all downhill after 40...he says 40 is the key age that the quality of the eggs really goes down hill 
unfortunately you cant cheat time...... 
its so depressing 
DE is a positive step as the success rate is very high compared to 40/41/42/43 old eggs...but it still doesnt always work if you have other issues, so its not a magic answer...but for me it increases my success rate from less than 5% to 70%....so its got to be a positive thing
Karen xx


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## s1165 (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi Karen

I am new to site and was reading your story. First let me say good luck and hope it all works out for you. I am 42 (43 in March) - got pg naturally in July (first try) and was very happy till had m/c at 8 w. Now really desperate to have baby, DR says try again but am I being naive to think it will all work out without help. DP doesnt really want help as all too stressful (he has a child from previous relationship). Other people on this site have suggested AFH test - but reading through lines there that doesnt seem to be that conclusive and not sure whether I should get bogged down in worrying how to interpret blood tests.

I know I can get pg ( though may have been fluke) had horrible m/c so was scanned about 6 times so all tubes,cervix, uterus etc.. all ok. Not sure what to do - feel I should go to see DR on Friday with a plan otherwise he will fob me off again. If my eggs are just no good I may give up. Did see heartbeat at 7 wks and all looked fine and no one could give me reason why m/c. Sorry hope I am not waffling but any advice for a confused 42 year old who suddenly realises she has left everything far too late!

Thanks

sally


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## Celeste (Nov 15, 2007)

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

I can't give advice, just recount my own experience.  

My clinic doesn't provide information on cell numbers, etc. but grades embryos from 1 (perfect) to 10 (absolutely useless) with anything under 7ish being considered as unlikely to implant.

Last year, when I was 39 (I just turned 40 yesterday) I had a grade 1 embryo transferred, as well as a 7, and got a BFP followed by a natural m/c at 8/9 weeks.  I never understood why a "perfect" embryo which implanted wouldn't go the distance.

I then had an "average" (something like a grade 4-5) embryo transferred, along with 2 "rubbish" ones.  Got a BFP and am 6 months' pregnant.  

In the end of the day, I suspect that embryo grading doesn't really mean much.  

My own clinic is very positive about women's chances of conceiving with their own eggs up until after age 42/43: they told me to come back after this one if I'd like to try again with my own eggs.

Try and believe in your own eggs: 40 really isn't that old!


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Celeste Happy birthday 4 yesterday!which clinic u with?i had 2 unsuccessful attempts with lister and they did not give stats 4 43yr olds.ifu r under 40.the stats 4 ivf r the best.i would not want 2 give the lady false hope but it does depend on individual.i am now on wl 4 de.we very much want a child after over 7yrs of tryin and 2 experience pregnancy and birth.at start perhaps wouldnt consider it but the longer never went away.good luck with rest of ur pregnancy berniex


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## Celeste (Nov 15, 2007)

Thanks Bernie!
Whilst not of Belgian nationality, I live in Belgium and can't praise their IVF clinics highly enough: pragmatic, very honest but still encouraging approach and a commitment to trying to go as far as they can with the clients' own sperm and eggs.  Good luck to you and everyone on this thread.


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## annacameron (Dec 16, 2008)

i totally agree with Celeste. it doesn't matter much I think what they look like on outside...I have had 7, 5, 5 eggs at EC. each time they made blast and were transferred (2,2,3) or disintegrated on day 6 when they went to freeze them. I think there's somegthing in the ctyoplasm and mitochrondial energy - you don't hear much about it but basically it is one of the reasons older eggs fail - they run out of steam after doing all that work getting to blast etc and trying to implant takes too much effort!

the body doesn't select on the basis of look it selects *(eggs of course not embryos at this point) on the basis of the signals the maturing eggs give off. we lose all that by ivf. natural seldeection goes out of the window and we end up with some rubbish getting through and confusing things when the body wldn't have allowed it. 

so i think there's a mix of mitochrondiral prob and chromosomal issues going on. Indicnetlaly i don't think chroms are SO bad in older women - look at the % of mc out of the bfps, not that much higher than the 35s. (however, you could of course argue that the inital number of bfps is lower owing to v early mcs.)  

good luck to us all anyway. 

anna xx


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## drownedgirl (Nov 12, 2006)

I had my DS at the age of 37, naturally... followed by 7 miscarriages aged 39/41.

Then turned to DE IVf and now have twins. Chromosomal abnormalities due to age were obviously my problem (they did test two of my losses and confirm that)

In my case, my fertility must have declined steeply from age 39.


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## annacameron (Dec 16, 2008)

yes there's an article discussing all this and "telomeres", search under the heading "scrambled eggs" - not kind I know..but there it is...


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