# bitter and twisted



## FS

Hi,

I'm new to this board.  Had my 4th failed IVF in Feb, and have been spiralling out of control and into the bleak blackness ever since.  I've read a few of your posts, and I am struck by how you're always apologising for your own feelings of anger etc.  It's quite incredible.  I simply don't understand how we don't all go out and commit crimes etc after what we've been through (and will continue to go through).  Instead, we agonise about whether or not we've made enough concessions for those insensitive tossers who have hurt our feelings either through their nonchalant comments, or through their complete failure to contact us to find out if we're ok.  

I have become the most angry, bitter and twisted, and, of course, SAD person.  I would never have believed such strong feelings of grief were possible had it not been my sh'tty misfortune to have infertility imposed upon me.  I'm sure you all know what I mean, but I need to spell it out to people who actually understand - I feel like my whole life is ruined, pointless, and poisoned by the injustice of it all.  I hate seeing pregnant women, I hate seeing happy family-baby scenes, and I hate all the people who go about cooing and reporting to me the wonderful news of the latest births.  I can NOT believe how friends (ha!), and even family, perpetually inflict knife wounds, including by reporting how wonderful their lives are because of children.  Or those who tell you that having children is not the only thing in life (and these are people who have their own children, and would be devastated if they didn't).  Today one of my sisters came round with her 3 kids.  She started telling me how wonderful I am, and how children weren't the be all and end all (the usual crap), and I just told her that what she was saying to me was the equivalent of me running past a legless man in a wheelchair and telling him that having legs wasn't all it was cracked up to be.  That made her stop jabbering.  

I have started to cut people out of my life either because they have failed me during my time of need (and this includes some family), or because I can't bear to be reminded that they have what I will never have.  Sound bitter and twisted and mad?  Yep, that's me.  When I'm not crying and wanting to die, I'm angry and foul.  And I'm not going to apologise for it either.  

FS


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## AmandaB1971

Hi FS

I just wanted to sending you a big  hun.  I think that there are lots of people on these boards who could relate to how you're feeling.  You're not bitter and twisted your hurting and traumatised after all you've been through and the feelings you describe are quite understandable and normal under the circumstances.  Once you give yourself the freedom to know it's ok to feel like that it starts to feel less oppressive.

I don't know whether you've had any counselling from your clinic but perhaps you might find that helpful?  If you've all done with talking then perhaps you could consider some other ways of letting go of your anger and if you think that would help I could give you some suggestions; releasing balloons with labels on (i.e. balloon with label on saying "why me" "I hate infertility" etc) is very therapeutic (more so than you might think!) or aggressive sports such as boxercise can be really good outlets for your frustration and anger.

I do understand how you feel hun and I'm sure lots of other ladies on here do too.  Sometimes though our relatives say what they think is helpful without realising how very unhelpful it is!  (My mother is a prime example of this!  )

Take care and welcome to FF!

Axxxxxxxx


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

Dearest, I hear you.
I have felt, said and been through everything you say, more than once. Why me? What have I done to deserve this? I feel bitter and twisted. I have wanted to die and spent days crying when friends have announced pregnancies. Years crying and being a boring broken record to everyone around me who tries to make it better by making it worse with their hurtful and unhelpful comments.

If you have not already been to counselling, then I strongly advise seeing a counsellor with specific training in infertility. They will help you to release your grief and reach closure in a controlled and systematic way. At the moment it is all twisted and muddled and difficult to arrange and sort through.

The trouble with infertility is that there is often no closure, no grave, no funeral or family understanding for our grief for the baby we have lost. To others it is untangible - "what you have never had you do not miss" to them. Not to us. Our baby has died and it needs as much respect as a child that lived and died.

It may take 2 years to get over the worst of a serious bereavement like this, but you need to keep strong and come out the other side. You will be able to think more clearly as time goes by and perhaps open yourself up to new options that before were unthinkable.

We are all with you and are here if you need to talk. We understand.
Much love to you at this sad time. Big hug


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## juicygem

Hi FS,

I completely understand how you feel. I too have reached a point for where I'm sick and tired of others telling me either it will happen. Or that I'm lucky not to have kids (because they are exhausting, expensive, annoying etc etc)

Some friends even say they are jealous of my freedom and ability to be career orientated.
Yep it's hard for them to know what to say I guess. When I first discussed my problems with my younger sister she said well it's not as if you've got cancer!! 

I know told her that it felt almost as bad ( hopeless, heartbroken, worried for what the future holds) she then got very angry with me, incredulous that I could compare the two things.

I am also surrounded pregnant colleagues and by clucky new mums and dads who constantly offer for me to hug and cuddle their children ( like something is going to rub off on me and magically get me pregnant!?)

I'm tired of facechecking every pregnant women I see, trying to work out her age, wondering how she got lucky. I'm tired of shying away from family occasions when I know less close/tactless relatives will ask when we're going start a family!?!

All these things hurt like hell, and I can sympathise with the feelings of want to curl and and die or smash things up  when you're feeling so hopeless and cheated by life.

I know I was born to be a mum, nurturing and caring is in my genes, I love taking care of people (even grown-ups!). But even my DH is worried that I'm to desperate to be a mum.

But saying all this I trying not to allow myself to be defined by infertility. If I am not successful at having a baby, I will be successful at something else. I've already talked to my DH about a life without kids (hard to think of/accept) but we've agreed we'd cope and have and enjoy things and experiences people with lots of kids can't have.

Nicer holidays, nicer clothes, a better home, more pets, more fullfilling jobs and more freedom to do exactly what we want, when we want.

Then perhaps I would become everyones favourite aunty, the one who spoils other people's children, the one who's fun and not stressed out. 

Who knows? It's hard to give-up on a dream (and I certainly haven't yet ) but I've found it helpful to visualise life on the other side of the battle. 

Depression, heartache and frustration are things most of the ladies on this site have to bear, but we need to kinder to ourselves, love ourselves for the fact we're fighters and a lot tougher than other people. 

Hope things do work out for you out for you (and me). If you ever want to vent/talk send me a message. 

All the best 

Juicygem xx


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## nbr1968

Hi FS

Well done for voicing your feelings, and for not apologising for how you feel. I understand what you feel, and your comments about cutting people out of your life really rings true for me too. I just got sick of those people who, as you said, have had children with no problems and yet tell me that maybe i should try and adopt, or that i would make a wonderful mother, or that i am so lucky that i get to do all the things I do because i don't have children. It is so patronising, but unlike you I never have the presence of mind to give the analogy that you gave your sister - you did that for all of us out here suffering with IF - good for you!!!!! 

The problem with IF is that you have to explain it to people and even then they don't understand - i have spoken to people who think that IVF works 100% of the time and that it is an easy fix!  even had one person say that of course in their day they were not "career girls" and so got on and had children early - I didn't bother to tell her that i have been on this IF rollercoaster for many years and it is nothing to do with wanting my career before a family.

I do agree with the other ladies about counselling, but unfortunately after all the tests you have had done, you are probably feeling the pinch financially, and counselling is cheap! In the meantime, do talk to people on FF - there are so many people on this site who can totally empathise with what you feel, and your thoughts when you see pg ladies, or family scenes. If it makes you feel better, at certain times of the month (you know what i mean - pms aaaaghhhhhh!!!!!!) I find myself getting irate at all the b***dy baby related adverts that are on TV!!!! I know that had I not experienced the IF c**p I would not understand what people have gone through to try and achieve a family of their own. All I can say, is that I have never been so grateful to have found FF, and all the support and knowledge I have gained through this site has kept me sane, when at the time I joined I felt like life had no meaning at all, and I was at the end of my tether.

I know this does not help and it won't make your grief and hurt get any better in the short term, but keep posting when you feel low and we will all try and make you feel less alone.

Keep well, and lots of   and  

Nxxx


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## FS

Hopeful H, 

It's true, nobody can believe the grief because they never saw me holding my own baby, so how could I possibly be so sad about something I've never experienced.  And then that sort of statement is doubly hurtful, because the person saying it is not only dismissing your grief as unfounded, they're also denying you're a complete human being by pointing out that you don't have kids, so don't have the capacity to feel what they do.  Thank you for articulating it this way - I've often thought this myself, but never do i come across anyone outside of our sad IF circles.  As for counselling - on the recommendation of my GP I went to the practice counsellor months and months ago, and I'm afraid I found the whole exercise pointless.  She just sat staring at me, waiting for me to pipe up like a Quaker or something, and when eventually I spilled my guts and cried without stopping, she just carried on staring.  The only thing she seemed capable of doing was asking, 'and how did that make you feel'?  And whenever I told her how it made me feel she just nodded and repeated what I'd said, eg 'so that made you feel barren and useless'.  In the end I told her she needed therapy because she thought it was normal to just sit staring at me without interacting.  I then went privately to a therapist who was more obsessed with past family experiences and childhood - completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.  She got the push as well when she asked me a most ludicrous question: 'do you think your mother is jealous of you'?  Yah!  My mum might be stupid and dozey sometimes, but she doesn't have that kind of perverse attitude towards her own daughters.  Anyhow, I've decided to give counselling one last try (I've been signed off work, and my GP has rightly said there's no point in me being signed off just so that I get more depressed watching daytime TV).  But ultimately I don't see how any of it can help.  Unless she can give me back my fertility, she's not likely to convince me that being childless is OK and fulfilling.

Juicygem,

Yeah, I know what you mean about checking out the face of every passing pregnant woman.  Sometimes I'll just think ruefully, 'if only I were her age again', else I'll be eyeing some older woman and think, 'my god, she looks much older than me - how did she do it?!'.  So manic.  As for nicer holidays, free time to do as we please, career, all that stuff - actually, I don't give a stuff about those things.  When all of this happened to me, I realised just how little the material things really mean.  They all turn to dust when we die, but families live on.  I have this terrible picture in my head of my family tree: all my sisters and their husbands and their children branching downwards into infinity, and my husband and I, a circle and a square joined by a single line, with nothing underneath it, forever.  So bleak.  The other week my mother tried to comfort me with the fact that some of my neices had confided in her that they thought I was their 'coolest' aunt, and she thought I could be happy with the love of all my sisters' children.  I had to point out to her that when I was a child I adored some of my uncles and aunts, but that the love I felt for them was in no way comparable to the love I felt for my parents and sisters. She knew, and l know that what I said is true.  Nothing to be done about it, it's the truth, plain and simple.

N,

And it's so infuriating that one has to EXPLAIN IF and IVF to people, especially close family.  One might imagine that they'd care enough to do a bit of reading about it themselves so that even if they can't empathise, they can at least know the facts.  The worst thing is explaining it once, then a few weeks/months later, the same person goes and asks the same dumb questions - as if they were so bored the first time that they couldn't retain the info.  Or, they'll persistently say the same unfounded mantra, eg my mother is obsessed with the fact that Cherie Blair conceived age 45, so she'll quote this at me periodically.  When I tell her that C Blair is the exception, and that most women over 40 don't conceive, she'll say, "Oh, I don't believe it, there are so many women like C Blair".  And I'll read her off the scientific statistics, show her the facts about aneuploidy, and give her an all-round comprehensive biology lesson.  And then a couple of months later, she'll say to me, "well dear, you know Cherie Blair conceived when she was 45...."  [email protected]

Well, all of you, although I can't apologise for my bitterness, I would like to apologise for the length of this post.  It's all been about me, me, me, and I can't tell you how I appreciate the fact that you've allowed me to rant like this.  I am so very alone (except husband is lovely) all of the time, and it makes such a change to be communicating with people whose feelings resonate to some extent with my own.

Thank you!


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## florie

Hi FS

So sorry to hear you are feeling low   i really hope you feel this thread is supportive and is a safe place to vent your frustrations. I know i have found it really helpful since i joined.

I think everyone on here has friends and family who say insensitive things.... my MIL is a prime example she often says things like "i had some friends who tried for a baby for years and as soon as they stopped trying they fell pregnant" now if she had said this story once she could be forgiven however she says it every time i see her (and often when DH is out of the room and i am defencless Lol!) it's like she thinks that if i stop thinking about being infertile i would miraciously fall pregnant AAAAARGH!!   I also have other relatives and friends who regularly say hurtful things which i think they think are helpful. 

I try not discuss our situation with my in-laws now because they just don't get it!

I have been worrying lately about getting old and being lonely....not having anyone to visit me or grandchildren to hear about etc...it makes me very sad   And there lies another issue i feel SO guilty that i won't give my parents any grandchildren. They are at the age when their friends are starting to have grandchildren and i feel such a failure as a daughter because i can't give them any.  

Don't worry your not alone in feeling sad, desperate, angry, bitter. I think we all feel like that, the pain does become easier to live with and you find ways of managing it but some days it just all comes out again. I would also recommend going to a counsellor but make sure it is one that you feel comfortable with. I have had 2, one was fine but the other was terrible....they all have different approaches so find one that suits you best  

Take care

Luv
Florie x


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## meerkatz

Dear FS

Im so sorry you are feeling so low just now , I can only echo the previous comments made by the wonderful ladies on this thread, infertility is cruel, family, friends, members of the public just dont get how not everyone in life can have children easily, according to plan; I know exactly how you feel;  a year ago I went through my final ivf treatment which was unsuccessful, two months before christmas; I think that I was initially in denial that it was the end of the road for dh and I, tried to say to myself that we will have a fulfilling life without children, holidays, nice material things; this frame of mind didnt last,as the reality of our situation kicked in not helped by insensitive people, pg women, babies in prams, happy families walking by, baby family adverts on tv, the latest celebrity to be pg; like you say, material things mean nothing in the end, would give everything up in an instance that I owned to have a baby;  That was a year ago, a year on and I continue to have counselling sessions, cant say that I have moved on, but I do see a tiny bit of light at the end of the horrendous road of infertility; dont get me wrong, I have really bad days when I too feel bitter and twisted, angry and envious towards women who get pg at the drop of a hat etc, comments such as "do you have children" when I say no get that curious look of why ever not; there is a pg secretary in my work just now, pg is totally unplanned, can hardly bear to look at her on my really off days, on my good days I will give small talk Im also careful to avoid looking at her growing belly; she probably thinks that I am career orientated/selfish etc just cause I dont ask how she is feeling; I guess I have become paranoid as a result of infertility, I too worry about the future, I am an only child so no chance of neices and nephews, which although would never take the place of a biological child, would at least be some sort of biological legacy; like you I worry about what will happen when I get old and dh isnt around, but I have tried to turn this mindset round by thinking that having a child does not guarantee that you wont be lonely in your old age.  I have also cut people out of my life who have been insensitive, the works, it still hurts like hell when I hear through the grapevine about how they are so happy with their bundles of joy, have never ever thought of trying to get back in touch to mend things; the thoughts I have had towards a former close friend who go pg after a second month of trying have really eaten me up   Have tried to turn that round now by saying that she was never a friend in the first place, as a true friend is always there for you not matter what. Sorry Im just twittering on here probably not being a great help 

Im sorry that your experiences of counselling have not been good  I hoping that your next counselling experience will be more positive, good infertility counsellors are a rare breed.  My first counsellor told me that I was being too negative, I swiftly moved on to a better counsellor after her 

Please take care of yourself, infertility is heartbreaking, the only people who know how you are truly feeling are the people on this thread.  I havent posted on the site for a long time as just dont feel up to it at times, however get comfort from reading the posts, we can all survive through this horrendous journey together somehow and take strength from each others posts

Love
Meerkatz x


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## INCONCEIVABLE

Guess what - I have just had the biggest rant ever.  A friend of mine who has always been telling me not to hurry about fertility treatments, to give myself time when it was running out and I was panicking... she got preggers... just like that... On first try this July ... and guess what... she is nearly 42... She never had a fertility treatment.  She got pregnant naturally....

I was so jealous today when I heard... it's beyond words...  I just don't know whether I will be able to talk to her about my infertility ever.  
Last June after my failed ARGC try  I spent a week with her on hols... I was clinically depressed and yes... I talked about my failed treatment a lot as it bothered me.... She was listening and all... only to tell me months later that I was moaning too much and that it was ott.  She is a psychologist by training.  And she was meant to be my best friend... No more....

Oh, I can tell you about sadness and bitterness and feeling twisted today...


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## tracey-ann

HI

I am new to, I was wondering how to put my thoughts down when I read your post, I swear what you said could of come straight from my head  . I had my last cycle 18 months ago and since then have had 2 councillor's and a years worth of antidepressants (something I fought for years) they have helped but to be honest nothing takes away the pain an yes increasing bitterness go away.
My friends and family are supportive and try to help but I don't want to be constantly bringing other people down so I put the smile on when alot of the time I just want to run away and it is getting harder and harder to conceal my anger at the world.
It was so good to read your email and find a like minded person and then to continue reading and see such supportive replies as cheesy as it may sound it really does feel like I have found somewhere to run to.
I hope you are also finding some relief.
Really pleased to meet you'se Tracey


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## Griselda

FS - You go girl!  I just love your rant.  The wheelchair analogy is just brilliant and I have immediately plagiarized it into my counter attack arsenal.      Fantastic stuff.

I so know what you mean regarding material things.  I strived for years to carve out a great career for myself and I'd give the whole darn thing back in an instant to hold my child in my arms.  

Yes, we ask, what is the darn point anyway eh?!  In life?  In it all?  

Ditto family tree.  I adored my father.  He is dead.  And now so are his genes, his bloodline and his grandchildren.  Do you think 'Oh what a bummer' might be a little too strong an expression to use??       

(Sorry if the above is in anyway insensitive.  One of my coping mechanisms is to try to find the dark humour in the black void.  I hope it doesn't cause distress).  

Well welcome to our 'merry' gang FS.  Greatly looking forward to some more brilliantly articulated rants.  Thank you.      

With regards counsellors.  I have found the same as you.  Mostly a sorry lame lot (pardon the pun).  Although I saw one at the Bridge Clinic in London that DH and I 'had' to go and see and was remarkable surprised at how good he was.  I'd recommend him if you ever fancy another stab at it.  I'll dig out the guy's name for you if you're at all interested.

G xx


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

I may be wrong, but counsellors who are registered with the british association of infertility counsellors might be better qualified to treat you for this issue than a random GP practice counsellor, who does not understand this precise problem, and normally does general counselling for depression etc.

The lady we saw in NW Kent understood me and could read my inner thoughts in an instant. My husband did not want to listen to what she had to say, but then that is him and his problem. She was so intuitive that working with her would have brought real results had he been receptive.
Even so, she assessed my situation exactly and was right about everything. She helped me immensely.

As I say, it might help you to move on and open up new options that are at the moment unthinkable.


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## Myownangel

Good for you FS - don't apologise. Be yourself. I'm a paid up member of the bitter and twisted club (!) But I say that as a joke really - cos we're not really bitter and twisted all the time - we're just grieving - and its understandable and ok. And I know the feeling of wanting to cut everybody out who has let you down with crass comments or who has got the family you so long for - it's a lonely place to be, but you do have us. We understand. 

I 'get' your anger at the woman's remarks because it's about choice. It's easy to say how kids are not the be-all-and-end-all when you HAVE them - people like us have no choice about it. But we do have choices in other things - and I like to think that maybe I'll end up doing something that people bogged down by kids can only dream of. Please be gentle on yourself - you'll find that this mood does shift in time - and the sun comes out. Perhaps on some new and unexpected horizon.

Bernie xxx


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## Joan

Hallo all you bisted twitts,

I was so, so positive when I first joined - on the over 40s thread. nothing, noone could sway my confident, one hundred per cent positiveness. i never, ever dreamed that one day I would be one of the sad, failure people. because that's what it is to me. i plan so many things. i'm good at stuff. but i have certainly failed in making a family, in getting pregnant, in giving birth, in having a baby, bringing up a child, continuing the family line. what makes me so upset is that - like some of you mentioned - WHO is going to come and visit me when i'm old, elderley, infirm, deaf, in a home. I remember going to visit my aunt. and i remember that i didn't go enough. she had no children.

who is going to call me mummy. or granny. who am i going to teach all the masses of things i want to share and teach to a little person who looks just like me and my dp. i make clothes. i have always planned on making loads of pretty little things, stripey and spotty and clever and fresh.

several kind thinking people have contacted me about donor eggs and adoption. i don't want that though. i want to make a baby made of me and dp. with bits of my mum and dad, and my granny and everyone else. 

i hate everyone. in the street everyone either has a baby, a child or is pregnant. everywhere i go, push chairs and prams and papooses. in the papers, who ISnt pregnant. in the magazines, so and so blah blah blah and their children.

I'm just joining in the rant girls. i'm feeling extremely sorry for myself. i have 2 sisters and they both have 2 kids. my dad died 8 years ago and my mum is getting on. seriously, i don't see what reason there is for living after she dies. i have her to look after at the moment, but when she has gone, i don't see any point.

i hate ****ing therapy. i have had therapy before. i have been in a psychiatric unit before and i discharged myself before they were able to give me a ridiculous amount of drugs to help me. i've seen counsellors (not the same as therapists i know); and therapists and psychiatrists. I don't really see how they are going to be able to help.

i think the government needs to address this problem. thousands of women left childless and in need of help. i think we do need help. maybe i need to see a specialist apres-ivf therapist.

i love my dog and keep getting upset because he is my 7 year old little boy. and he will probably die before he is 12.

i'm having problems with dp at the moment. because i'm feeling so low. he keeps trying to cheer me up. doesnt work.

i'll stop now. it's good to know that you're all out there.

Joan xx


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## Myownangel

Dear Joan,
It's such an awful position to be in isn't it? I'm only 2 years behind you - and the dreaded menopause lurking. I do not know how I will cope with it. I'm sorry you are feeling so low - and I know the feelings you describe very well indeed. Perhaps, as you say, a specialist post-IVF counsellor could help?

I can't tell how to cope - but I can tell you what I'm doing (as I stumble along, with ups and downs - as you'll see from my posts). I'm trying to accept my situation (ha! tricky) and also trying to channel my creative 'urge' into something else. For me that's writing, painting and making things like knitting or jewellery. I don't know what your interests are, but you mentioned making cute little baby outfits. Now  I know this may not be the right time for that particular thing - but in time perhaps it is something you could do. There is this community I have found online called Etsy and it is a marketplace for hand-made things. They have all sorts of things there - knitted hats, clothes, original artwork, soaps etc etc It is NOT like Ebay. It's free to open a shop space and listing is very cheap (10p for 4 months!) and then they take something like 3% when you sell something. I think a lot of people on there do it to fund their hobbies - it is just so marvellously creative. The people there are very positive. I have found it helpful to get absorbed in something completely outside ttc - focusing on a part of me that is nothing to do with that. And joining a community where people don't know about that - and it isn't important. The people there are very friendly. Please have a look at it (www.etsy.com) But that is just one thing. There is also blogging - now THAT's a timesink! But I won't reel off a long 'to-do' list - just to say that there is a life beyond this huge disappointment of not having kids.

I think it was a lady on here who gave me some good advice, saying that as you bring more new things into your life to fill it up, it won't feel like there is this big hole in the centre. For me the hole is still there, though not all-consuming - and I can't seem to let go. But I do feel that as time goes on, just very gradually life is getting easier.
Bernie xxx


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## florie

Lovely to see you feeling so much more positive again Bernie..... you always have inspirational words    

Luv
Florie x


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## Myownangel

Thanks Florie. It's so true that in helping others we help ourselves. That's how this board works.
Bernie xxx


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## rainbowjo

Hi girls

Can i join you? I have been lurking for a while here but not felt able to post, mainly because i can't move on and i certainly can't accept! Or rather i wont or am not ready to. However i am certainly bitter and twisted and probably slightly verging on crazy. I relate to all that has been said. 
I am struggling with everything especially all pregnant women and tiny babies. I even hate the pregnant women who park outside my house to go to the maternity clinic- my house is near a hospital. I struggle with work due to pregnancies and babies and constant talk about it all. 
I miss my babies so much and it all feels so unfair and painful. I hate not being able to give my dh a baby and i hate the thought of not having a piece of him left when he dies 
Thank you all for listening i have felt so lonely recently and this has really helped. 
Rainbow x


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## nbr1968

Dear Rainbow

I had to reply to your post - when i read your profile I must admit that i felt humbled - you have been through so much - more than any one person should have to go through and to be honest, I am not surprised that you feel what you have written.

Nothing any of us can say will make you feel less loss, but I just wanted to send you a hug and say that I hope you find some peace soon - and maybe move away from that maternity unit! I used tp hate going to the Fertility Clinic in our previous hospital because they would make us walk through the antenatal, and post natal dept and there was always a hevaily pg woman standing outside smoking! used to drive me in sane! And I always used to think that was so unfair and like someone "up there" was rubbing our nose in it.


Anyway, take care

Nx


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## florie

Hi Rainbow

I have to echo what N has said.....you are so brave and strong.....i just wanted to send you lots of  hugs     

Luv
Florie x


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## FS

Florie,

The stuff about other people offering up their kids (one rub and you too will get pregnant), is so insulting.  It's also further illustration of how completely lazy people are about empathising.  AS IF their children are going to be a substitute for you not having your own.  AS IF the fact of their children isn't in itself sad for the person who doesn't have them, and AS IF having a cuddle from one of them is in any way going to help you with your grief.  It makes me so angry (quelle surprise).  The wife of my husband's friend recently pronounced to me, 'never mind, we have decided we're going to have lots and lots of children (she's from Nicaragua and speaks with great flourish about how wonderful big families are), and you can be god-parents'.  Well, thanks - yep, your planned massive family is really going to make me feel a whole lot better about myself.  And, of course, you think you're going to get free baby-sitting into the bargain, and that I'm going to be satisfied, like a bloody nutter who thinks your babies belong to me.  I don't think so love.

They really don't get it, do they?  And they couldn't be bothered to at least TRY to feel how you might be feeling, because they're all so happy with their demon sprogs!  Ha ha ha! How mad do I sound?!

FS


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## rainbowjo

N and Florrie
Thanks for your replies, thank you for understanding 
Hi to everyone on here 
FS 
so sorry about the ignorant woman, you are so right people just dont get it at all  

I feel a bit better today 

Much love

rainbow x


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## FS

Meerkatz,

Read your post and I do feel so much the same about the death of my genes.  I look at photos of myself as a young 16 year old, and I was so pretty and carefree, and had no idea that my life was going to be so sad, or that my pretty face would just get older and sadder and then would just disappear into oblivion.  It's true, having kids doesn't guarantee that you won't be lonely in old age, but the odds are definitely much more in your favour!  And NOT having kids pretty much guarantees more loneliness.  That's the stark truth of the matter.  

Everyone,

My husband's 24-yr old brother called us a couple of nights ago to say that he and his girlfriend are pregnant.  Neither of them earn a living, the conception, we are told, was 'an accident', and neither of them has any income or security.  He is applying to university this year.  I felt terrible for DH who, I know, must have felt totally crushed by the fact that his whippersnapper wastrel brother has been able to father a child when he hasn't.  And I feel angry angry angry that a) it was an accident (what kind of irresponsible rubbish is that) and b) they are just so totally unsuitable to become parents.  I expect my mother-in-law will be delighted that she has another grandchild on the way, especially given that her eldest son and his mentally deteriorating wife are not going to be producing the goods.  To cap it all, brother-in-law has asked me to write him a reference for his uni application, and I just want to say:

smokes too much, never had a job, irresponsible, lazy, drop-out, spawning kids he shouldn't be!  I might sound like I'm joking and just venting.  But actually, this news has been a great blow, and I feel like I'm being held down and suffocated in treacle.  Too depressed to even eat....

Bitter and T'd.  Yes.


----------



## FS

Rainbow,  just seen your post.  Really sad.  I'm sorry you've had all the cr.p you've had.  I'm sorry we all have.

love F


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## Griselda

Joan,

I so feel you.  Every single word.  

Rainbow,

As N says, I too am truly humbled by your courage.  

Ladies, thank you to all of you for being in the same place.

This may seem inappropriate but if anyone is with in easy reach of London and fancies meeting up for a good old ******* and blisted drink (because, let's face it, at least we can do that eh?!).  I'm game.  

Thx for sharing.  At least we're not alone, no matter how lonely it feels sometimes in the impossibly fertile world out there.  FGS!  And AAAAAAAAARG!


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## estraka

FS you are brilliant!  I logged on tonight feeling so desperate and reading posts - particularly this thread - has made me feel so much better.

In the spirit of absolute honesty that you have started with your blog, I have to say that I find a lot of the content of this site a bit too saccharin for my taste (it is hard to accept such positivity when you are swimming in bile), but at the same time as being incredibly sarcastic and dismissive (MandyB1971 I'm afraid the releasing balloons suggestion made me snort lemonade out my nose) the incredible support and understanding of people that go through the same feelings really does make me feel so much better (including MandyB1971 - I'm sorry I didn't mean to be mean - I am just a natural cynic.)

Life is just ****e.  Why is it that my husband's two 17 year old cousins are knocked up accidentally (one for the second time!!!!!) and I can't be?  

There are ladies on this site who are living proof that miracles do happen, but unfortunately not for everyone.  How can I grieve for something I have never had?  The pain is so intense but because it is also so intangible it is so difficult to put a name to it or let it go.  Especially when people surrounding me are so insistent that the miracle will happen for me if only I "stop trying so hard" - the numerous stories of those that have given up and miraculously fall pg naturally - or if I kept trying IVF it is "bound to work eventually", or the assurance that adopting a baby would solve the problem (as if they just give them away).  Or the worst being the fake envy that you have all described so eloquently - "think of all the things you can do being fancy free".

Just because I am desparate for a baby doesn't mean I want other people's shoved in my face either!  I totally understand where you are coming from there.  The only exception is my niece who I have bonded with in a way that I know is bordering on obsessive and my feelings are far too intense for her than can be completely healthy!  Luckilly she is only 18mths old and lives far away so I only see her once every 3 months so she can't be too aware of it or get too smothered!  Also luckilly my sister and her partner are incredibly generous and patient!  They have put myself and my husband as legal carers in their will if something happened to them and I have to admit I have had the odd waking dream/fantasy that they have died and I feel so incredibly happy to have my niece with me to bring up as my own - until I come around and feel so incredibly desperate and low at having had such evil thoughts, which of course I would never want to happen.

My husband "jokes" that we are going to die lonely and get eaten by our cats (we only have 2 cats at the moment but it could happen!!)

I have been trying so hard the last couple of weeks since we decided we didn't want to try anymore to be pragmatic about it and to fill my time with other things - the things I want to be doing instead of the unbearable slog of obsessing about babies and doing rounds of drugs.  I've joined a gym and a local drama group.  I've booked the holiday to the Bahamas and am planning a trip of a lifetime next year to the Galapagas Islands.  I've thrown myself into my job again and am trying to give a damn about a career.  I've not cried much until today and have told all my family and friends not to worry as I am going to be fine and said trite things like "It probably isn't meant to be" and "we've decided since life has dealt us lemons we'll make lemonade".

Then my period came.  Inevitable without divine intervention and yet so devastatingly final!  I have been bawling my eyes out. I am now feeling angry and cheated - thank goodness - I was wondering when this watershed would arrive as the accepting, benevolent being I have been pretending to be over the past couple of weeks really isn't normal for me!

Thanks so much for your posts and stories.  x

p.s. FS, I went to counselling a few years ago and found the first person I saw was as wet and useless as you described. Luckilly I was recommended someone else who was excelent - very proactive and involved and no-nonsense but still non-judgemental and empathetic.  I think it is probably a lottery to find someone you gel with, but well worth it if you do find such a person!  I find the main point to it though is venting your feelings and most counsellors can only really offer you coping methods and constructs to help you help yourself.  If you find this forum does the job then you can save the money!


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## Flopsy

Well said FS,

Yours are some of the most sensible words I have ever read on the subject.

I'd like to canonise you and make you patron saint of this thread.

We are under so much pressure to be reasonable. I've never found being reasonable very useful and especially when dealing with emotions. It doesn't work for me.

What's wrong with being bitter and angry. They are strong emotions and the circumstances that give rise to them are strong and painful. I don't want the displacement activities.

I don't want to deaden my emotions with antidepressants and see counselors which I find of limited use.

I want the right to be me and feel what I feel. I want to feel it for as long as necessary and then move on/forget it/get diverted/give up in my own time. I also want to go back to feeling bitter and angry when I need to.

We have had so many discussions about how to name and use this thread. We also get abuse from other women who use FF. That made me pull back from this thread when I really did need it. 

My opinions change over time. I've changed over time. I did once want to "move on".  Now I realise that it's just not feasible. I am finally comfortable about my anger and my bitterness. I didn't know that this is where I was going. I didn't know that I could feel like this.


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## Joan

Dear All,

I am feeling better today. I bought an ipod and it only took 2 hours to finally get it working, so I am now on the internet with earplugs in and am pretending I can't hear dp who is calling me from downstairs.

Thanks for your thoughts Bernie. I shall plan away. and i shall check out the website.
Rainbow - wow - what a profile - i too feel humbled - my heart goes out to you.

I like this thread. Some people might find it offensive. but i think it is certainly providing an outlet for some of us. and hey, there are probably many, many more who would benefit from saying it how it is.

Hugs all round.

Joan xx


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## Myownangel

Thanks Joan - I'm glad I could be of help. I find it is a wonderful community there. And I'm glad you are feeling a little better. Yay for ipods! I know this thread is about being bitter and twisted - and oh yes I have been there (will probably go there again anytime soon). But on the other hand I am determined that this IF will not 'beat' me. There are many things that can turn us B&T - illness, loss of status, loss of partner, IF happenes to be a biggie with affects on just about every aspect of our lives. But I refuse to turn hostile to the world, because I do have a life (just one life) and I'm not going to waste it on mourning this loss forever. And believe me that is not the saccharine answer - that is the hardest challenge of all. My heart WILL NOT be broken!
Bernie x


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## rainbowjo

Hi ladies

Flopsy
You are so right about the pressure to be reasonable, i really identify with what you said. there is a woman at my work who is insisting on bringing in photos of her grandchildren and i feel so much pressure to be enthusistic about this but i'm really struggling. I felt bad that i am not really keen to see these photos. I am truly happy that she has these babies to love and listen about them when she goes on and on but i really dont want the photos it just feel like its one step more than i can take right now. I am dreading it next week. I feel so angry about my situation and i almost feel frightened by the intensity of my emotions. Does anyone else feel this?
I just want to thank you all for sharing your feelings here and for giving me a place to be where people really do understand. 
Love to you all
Rainbow xxx


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## FS

Rainbow,

It's true what you say - the intensity of emotions is scary, isn't it?  Does this woman at work know about your fertility issues?  It's so hard to know how to react to things that once upon a time were perfectly normal day-to-day occurences, but which become monstrous obstacle courses once you have been afflicted with the IF thing.  I spent last Christmas with my mum, sisters, and their kids.  One of my sisters showed us a slide-show of holiday photos with the kids, all of them holding hands with each other, and all of them showing family resemblance.  And as the music played in the background, I could feel my smile becoming more and more contorted into sadness, and I had to leave the room, and spent a good hour in tears upstairs.  It was indeed a really scary experience - the tidal wave a grief that came with those images was so shocking and painful.  So, yes, what you're feeling is something I (and undoubtedly others) feel as well.  I think you must find a way of not having to be subjected to this woman's child banter and photos.  Of course, it's up to you to decide whether or not it will cause you more trauma to tell her what's going on in your life, or to just withdraw without explanation.  But being subjected on a daily basis to that sort of imagery without being able to express your sorrow is such a terrible thing.  As it is, our inability to express ourselves as women and human beings through fertility is suffocating enough.  And then we end up having to stifle our anger and sorrow in order not to upset the 'norms' of acceptable behaviour which prevail in the 'normal' world of 'fertile' people.  None of it is fair, and we should seek to reclaim some space, either by venting our true feelings (even if others find it uncomfortable, or can't understand), or by making sure others do not continually bombard us with things we do not want to see or hear.  It's not as if we're living in denial - we're all too aware, 24 hours a day, of how tragic our situation is, and how other people's lives go on as normal.  But the other 'normal' people appear to be in denial about how we feel, about how badly it hurts, about the great loss we feel.  So they must be made to understand, and if they can't, then they must keep quiet!  I hope you can think of a strategy this weekend, muster the strength to handle the situation with this woman in a way that makes you feel OK.  Love FS


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## emcee

Hi folks

I have been away on my hols for a week (in Devon last week and no rain except for the last day)! and have had no internet until this evening, sorry I have not been able to make a contribution to this thread earlier.

Bitter & twisted? Yep, that was me once upon a time - its not something I'll ever forget because of the depth of emotion and the overwhelming piercing grief I felt like a constant stabbing to the heart and soul. Everyone seemed to have an opinion on my not being able to reproduce - and yep, you've guessed it - they were all people who had never had a problem in that particular department - so how the   would they know? 

MIL#1 (I have 2 MIL's - scream)! had tons of 'advice' that she used to dole out, as I said to her it never ceased to amaze me how she felt such an authority on me, my ectopics, my subsequent IF & my feelings about not being able to have a family considering she has never taken the time to actually sit down and talk to me. The amount of problems she has caused both myself and DH with the outlaws because of her 'opinions' is incredible - stoooopid moo!

Nowadays we don't bother with any outlaw family gatherings because the comments are still made to this day *sigh* we get the pitying glances (go do one says me) and we can't be doing with the whole kaboodle to be honest. I get sick of responding to comments 'they don't make car seats for motorbikes' being one of my fave comebacks!

IVF is not an option - my egg reserves are crap. I can't get preggers naturally, my pipework is screwed. Adoption is not an option either - DH already has a grown up daughter who has nothing to do with us (and when she did before it was only for financial reasons) and to be honest I don't even want to go there with adoption. Did years ago but it wasn't feasible, don't now, feel too old! My brothers won't have kids, the neice and nephew live in another town and we aren't privvy to their lives because that's the way my SIL is.

Maybe I feel a bit more relaxed with things now because I simply couldn't give a toss what other people think about me. I gave myself plenty of time to feel the way I felt and to go with those feelings - and I made no apologies for it either.

Both of my parents have died, when I lost my mum 5 years ago it really brought to the fore all the old feelings of not having a family of my own. I felt lost - what was my role? I wasn't a daughter any more, and I didn't have anyone to call on called mum (or dad). I wasn't a mother - I was only ever going to be a sister and a wife. That realisation was very scary. Where was my place in the world? I'm not sure I have found that out yet - but thats ok. Maybe there isn't a place for me, who says I want to conform to the norm anyway?!

I think I've resigned myself to the fact that this is my life and it's not going to be filled with the patter of little feet. I hung on to a job I detested for almost 12 years in the hope that IVF would work, I was glad I had that hope because once it's gone, it's a very lonely abandoned place to be in (or it would be without you all here). I've got a new job now and its crap, but I think going through all the IF stuff makes you determined to stick up for yourself, if nothing else. I've got the experience of the new job on my CV already and have already had an interview for a new job elsewhere (didn't come to anything, but was a positive experience).

I'm determined to grow old disgracefully. Have already been in the throes of pre-menopause for well over a year now with the hot flushes and the mood swings - bring it on. Not! I know that will be another cause of grief when my periods are all over - another turn of the wheel, another phase of life. Sigh.

IF can be very isolating, you end up re-evaluating your life, your friends, your job, where you live and distancing yourself from those who drive you bonkers. IF can also eventually make you more resiliant to things - sometimes I think I have made myself too resiliant now, I've got a shell like a tortoise!

Sending you all my love, I'm not going to patronise you by saying things will get better for you one day, because you will always hold some of what you feel in your heart. I guess you just learn to live with it in your own way, and if there are bite on the bum days you deal with them, and accept its ok to feel that way. 



Emcee xxx


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## Myownangel

I   you Emcee. You've helped me through so many B&T times and you are such an inspiration.  
Bernie xxx


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

Joan,
At least you have 2 sisters and 4 nieces and nephews.

My mum is dead, my dad is 79 and I am an only child.
I am about to divorce my husband so will lose his entire extended family.

I have lived in Kent for 12 years so I have lost contact with my side of the family in Berkshire and all my friends are here in Kent.

If I divorce I will move back to my dad's as I do not want to live near my husband's family and my elderly dad will need me more and more.

I was even going to change my job as it is now too far away. But I have kept that one for now, and will look again at that one later and suffer the travelling.

No husband, family, no friends, no baby......

What have I got to look forward to?

I suppose freedom and possibility of using a donor to create my baby. My marriage has been limping for years and family say hurtful things.

I will have to work hard at finding new friends and making the effort to keep up with my old ones. I can guarantee now it will be me travelling to see them and not the other way around!

Never know I might actually meet a man who treats me with respect and loves me?

If I can't have a baby by donor, I will adopt. Creating myself a family some way, some how is all that matters. I have a nurturing side that needs to be employed.


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## Flopsy

I wonder if it is about finding the right action/feelings/plan that best suits our personality type.

For me the counselling and other actions didn't suit me. They did help but what the counsellor missed was that I am a person of "action" and for me the whole idea of accepting is an anathema and has been for my entire life.

I have never "coped" with things by accepting and moving on really. It's alien and doesn't for me.

Maybe for some of us, the best way to remain sane and as "comfortable" (wrong word but can't find the right on) in all of this is the "bitter and twisted" approach.


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## nbr1968

Dear Hopeful hazel

I am so sorry that you feel that life hold no meaning for you at this time; it would be trite to say that things will get better etc.... - it goes without saying though that we ladies on FF don't like to hear others feeling despair and we can only hope that by giving you a place to "voice" your feelings and be true to yourself can in some way be a bit healing. As Flopsy says we all have to find our own way to feel about this whole IF "journey" - mind you I would rather have not taken this particular trip.

I never thought I would feel these strong and sometimes overwhelming emotions, and I was just thinking that this thread is not so much "bitter and twisted" because that has negative connotations and makes us feel that our feelings are somehow subversive! Instead it is more a thread of ladies who are being totally honest and not censoring what they feel to make others feel comfortable - after all most of us spend our waking moments doing this and trying to pretend that we are ok.

Sometimes we are not ok, feel totally lost, feel we have no title that gives us validity, and feel a sense of hopelessness - and when we look in that mirror we sometimes see this sad, disappointed, empty, forlorn person looking back, and yet we known that person is not who we are. I am managing at the moment, but those lowest of times, those feelings of envy at those who have what I see from the outside as a "perfect" family, can sometimes leave me feeling so low that it is all i can do to get out of bed and get on with my day.

So "bitter and twisted" or just honest and frank, I thank all the ladies of FF for giving me this place to be myself without editing!

Nxxx


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## estraka

Absolutely spot on N.  I've actually found the comments on this thread to be the most inspiring to me - it isn't an endorsement of letting IF define you by becoming bitter and twisted; quite the opposite I think.  The venting of b&t thoughts is quite cathartic and the honesty very refreshing.  

Flopsy - I think I know what you mean about being 'action' orientated.  What you have said rings true for me; I find it is less about 'coping strategies' and more about 'keeping sane' strategies!  Sometimes I wish I were religious so that I could believe there was some grand plan for me or some reason why bad things happen, but i don't; I just think life sucks sometimes and there is nothing to do but roll with the punches and try to get up again.  I don't really accept things - if I am going down I'll go down fighting.  I am determined to make the best of a bad situation though and I don't hold much truck with dwelling on it, so I guess that is 'accepting and moving on' in my own way.

Hopeful Hazel - I'm sorry to hear your husband hasn't come to his senses.  I know it must be scary to consider moving on.  Not at all an easy decision to make, especially when your feelings of self worth and confidence must be knocked after years of a struggling relationship.  It can't help that you are not happy in your job and don't feel that you have support from friends or family either.  It sounds as though you need to make some changes in one way or another; you deserve respect, appreciation and love and if you are not getting that through your current friends/family/husband/job then you owe it to yourself to make some changes.  It is an incredibly daunting prospect so it might be worth an incremental approach if the big bang approach is too scary.  I so hope things work out for you and find what you are looking for.  If things get too much then I hope you find some comfort in this forum - feel free to log on and vent without fear of judgement!

Take care all.


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## Francie

I've been a bit of a lurker on this thread for a while but would now like to join in. We've just had our last go at treatment and it was a total disaster - 3 follies but no eggs were collected at EC.  The clinic was awful.  We were left waiting for 2 hours after EC before we got told what was happening by which time we'd figured it out from the body language of the staff. When we were told, the dr was unbelievably insensitive, telling us we'd feel better in a few days (!!!!) and then be ready for more treatment although we’d been clear it was our last ever go.  

I'm feeling so devastated, so angry, so lost and so in need of venting these feelings.  Some of the things that make me most sad and angry, in no particular order:

1 Photos, just like some of you said.  What is the point of photos if you don't have children anyway? Friends and family aren't interested.  Photos are for handing on memories to children.  Without children, they will only end up in a skip when I die. I've stopped taking them. I might burn the ones I’ve got.

2 Other people trying to compare their experiences to mine. "Oh I know how you must feel.  My miscarriage was awful." I know having an early mc is always awful, but it's really not as bad if you get pregnant again quickly and go on to have 2 healthy babies. Maybe you still cry over the would have been birthday of the baby you lost but at least you have the real birthdays too. Or "Oh I know how you must feel.  It took me years to get pregnant with my first." Yes, but you did get pregnant and have a baby didn't you!  Or "Poor you. I know how stressful and painful IVF is".  Yes, but it worked for you!

3 People who say  "We've decided to have a baby."  Or "we've just found out we're expecting a baby." The arrogance!  Like you "decide" to have a baby. Like a pregnancy always results in a baby. 

4 People, friends (?) who pretend to be concerned but are actually acting in self interest, usually guilt and the desire to avoid awkward emotions. One of my favourite examples is my DH’s ex-colleague who heard I was in hospital with an ectopic so decided it was a good idea to phone us up to make sure we knew she was pregnant in case it upset us to see her without having been told.  As if that was sort of thing we wanted to spend to last few hours of my last ever pregnancy thinking about.  Other frequent comments are  "we would come and see you but we're worried seeing me pregnant/seeing our baby might upset you so we won't". Or "you seem so angry at the world. I find anger so difficult."  So instead of supporting you like you've supported them at other times, friends avoid you like the plague, don't answer e-mails explaining how desperately sad the latest loss or failed treatment has made you. Who's feelings are we actually protecting there?  Not mine. Sometimes I feel I'm expected to prove I've got my pain sufficiently under control that it won't make friends too uncomfortable or they will terminate the friendship.  

5 People, friends (?) that don’t even pretend to be concerned. Like the friend who got pregnant with twins with IVF and told me she wanted a sabbatical from our friendship as she didn’t want to be made to feel guilty for being pregnant.  She never contacted me again and didn’t even acknowledge the congratulations card I sent when her babies were born.  And the other friend who didn’t answer any of my mails and when I finally asked her is she’d had a baby, she said she had but that wasn’t why she hadn’t been in touch – she’d just been too busy!

6 Fertility specialists who seem to enjoy telling me how “poor” or “disappointing” my fertility is.  “No sh*t Sherlock!  After 3 failed pregnancies and years of trying to have a child, I didn’t need to pay you 5 grand to tell me that.  I was sort of hoping you might help me get pregnant instead of making be feel even more inadequate than I already do.” 

7 The fact that it so often feels everybody gets there in the end but me.  I know this isn’t true, as all the lovely people on this board show.  But it sometimes feels like that.  Over the years there’s been so many friends, colleagues and friends of friends that I’ve got close to, sharing support, stories and hope over infertility and pregnancy lost. I am the only one that didn’t get to have a baby.  It hurts so much.  Why do I always have to be happy for someone else? Why do I have to watch people’s attitude change from mutual support to embarrassed avoidance (until of course they send the inevitable circular “look at the picture of the lovely baby we just had” They never avoid sending that. Oh no.) Why is it always me that gets to be the statistic that nobody wants to be?  Sometimes I think I should hire myself out as the ultimate cycle buddy because for sure I’ll be the one that gets the bad news. 

This is the point I usually apologise for ranting but in the spirit of this thread, I will not apologise.  Thanks for reading.  Thanks for being there. And thanks for helping me feel I’m not the only one that got the door of the happy motherhood club slammed shut in her face, again and again.

xxxxx


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## Francie

Me again.  I forgot one.

8 All those articles and discussion pieces about how difficult it is to be a working mother. No doubt it is difficult to juggle those responsibilities and taking time off work to look after a poorly child must make you feel worried about what the boss will say. Lots of employers have very generous maternity and childcare packages now.  I have several friends who've had year long paid maternity leaves. And all that tax we childless pay for children services and benefits we'll never get the chance to use. All that cooing we have to do over colleagues' babies. And all that stigma we get from living in a world that defines women primarily as mothers. So when are we going to hear something about how difficult it is to be a working woman who can't have children. Now that would be interesting. 

Thanks again.  xxxx


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## nbr1968

here here francie

Eloquent and absolutely what i feel/have felt at times!


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## meerkatz

Francie

You have expressed exactly how I feel  you are so right about how we pay tax to fund maternity benefits, childrens education etc, where I work parents are entitled to parental leave mounting to several weeks a year makes me feel angry that I work to fund this. A colleague who doesnt have children has had to take six months unpaid leave (a sabbatical) its ridiculous, I really hate the pronatalist society that we live in which triumphs motherhood and the and the family and tries to make childless couples feel like second class citizens 

Meerkatz x


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## FS

Francie, Meerkats,  It's such a relief to know that others are thinking what I've been thinking!  It's so true.  We either have to take annual holiday leave or unpaid leave to go through the trauma of infertility treatment.  And if we're over 39 we have to re-mortgage our lives to pay for it.  Meanwhile, the NHS pays for people of any age to have their varicose veins removed, get sex changes, etc etc.  Then the state pays for people to stay at home and coo over their new babies (and, actually, I think this is really great, and of course would be something I'd like to happen to me), but leaves the mentally, physically, and financially wrecked infertiles to get on with it without any support whatsoever.  And if, like me, you finally break, you get signed off work and are no doubt viewed as a 'mental patient' who's a liability and won't be in line for any promotions anytime soon. 

Just before being signed off work I went on this 'personal development course' for women which was run by the office (I'm a civil servant, so we're talking about the state again here). I had no idea that it was going to concentrate on how to juggle family and work life, offer supportting networks for working mothers etc. AND the office runs a creche.  Throughout this course I was so desperate, and filled with grief and anxiety, and I couldn't believe how there was not a single thought that had gone into what might happen if there were 'infertile' women on this course.  And when I go into work, there's a creche at the front door, full of screaming/smiling toddlers that I have to step around to get through the turnstile.  I know not everyone can think about IF all the time like I do, but just a grain of human kindness and thought for women and men who do not have the gift of children would not just be nice, it would also be fair and just.  One in six couples have IF issues, and the state has a duty to represent them too.

FS


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## MrsPoogs

Hi Ladies

I have been reading this thread for the past few days started by FS   and am relieved to have found it.  I had my BFN with DE cycle in June and have been struggling ever since.  My DH and I had been considering another cycle abroad, but right now I am feeling so lost and overwhelmed I don't know what I/we are doing and I am currently seeking treatment to help me with these emotions.  

My sister is also 13 weeks pregnant for which I am pleased for her, as she has suffered a m/c in April, however, I am also finding it very difficult to be with her at the moment.

So I suppose I am saying my life is a mess right now and I Just wanted to say hello really and join the thread as I am not sure where I am going from here        

Love Poogie xxxx


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## meerkatz

Poogie, I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you right now having a pg sister, my heart goes out to you  I can only compare what you are feeling to a former close friend I had who became pg (very easily) unfortunately the friendship finished as she no longer knew what to say to me, a poor excuse really  You are grieving right now and being round your sister is not going to be easy for you, IF means that we have to self preserve ourselves so to speak, be kind to yourself, you have been through a lot

FS, its awful what you had to endure with the personal development course, you deserve a medal for getting through that day  infertile people never seem to be given a second thought, the assumption that society makes is that everyone can have children or that IVF will guarantee you a child.  

I too was signed off from work as a result of the treatment taking its toll on my mental health, its now down on my record, IF is truly destructive in every way and permeates into every aspect of our lives  its interesting that the people that we know can view us as still being the same people after treatment as we continue on the same childless road, however what people dont realise is that IF changes the person; I know that after enduring five rounds of unsuccessful ivf attempts my personality has changed, I no longer smile and joke like I used to, have become more withdrawn and negative in my outlook.  Coupled with the awful thoughts that I have towards pg women, I have well and truly changed, I know that this outlook cannot continue however I make no apologies for it, says me swiftly changing tv channels due to a baby advert  >: trying to say to myself that I am not going to let IF defeat me...

Meerkatz x


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## Francie

FS, that personal development course sounds awful. I would have wanted to express my disgust and walk out.   I hope you got the chance to give some feedback. As you say, it's shouldn't be too much to ask or expect that people give a bit of thought to the feelings of infertile people. I remember an internal staff newsletter for an organisation  I worked for had a page of birth announcements headed "we're SO fertile!".  I was so hurt, so angry.  I don't expect people to stop having babies or celebrating the fact that they can, but, a bit of sensitivity would make a lot of difference. I don't know if you had a chance to look at the article I posted on childless women beign treated as 2nd class citizens.  I recognised alot of what the author said. 

Meerkatz, I know my infertility has changed me too.  And I don't want to become a bitter, angry woman who scowls at children and growls at pregnant women. It's so hard not to become embittered. I sometimes feel like I make so much effort to work through my feelings, to avoid resentment, to protect my friends and family from the depths of my despair. It sometimes feels like I have had to beg for compassion. I am so fed up of having to justify my grief. 

Poogie, I'm so sorry about having to deal with your sister's pregnancy.  I can understand.  My sister has 4 children, all conceived without trying. I love my nieces and nephew and wouldn't wish them not here.  But it's been very hard and I can't think of any advice to make it easier except don't feel guilty if you need to stay away and be assertive with you family about your needs (easier said then done I know). My sister is unbelieveably insensitive (she moans about how she got pregnant at the wrong time so  her kids had to start school when they were young for their year) and actually cruel at times (she likes telling me and my DH that we wouldn't be able to cope if we had 4 children).  But then she's always been a manipulative bully.  I suppose it would be worse if I had been close to her.

I am still reeling for a really terrible article I just read. It said that a spokesman for Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt confirmed they had their twins thorugh IVF.  Not because there was anything wrong (oh no, of course not, god forbid - the article actually said IVF is not just for people with "mechanical defects". So we're "defective".  Nice!).  But because IVF was less stressful and more convenient than trying to conceive naturally!!!!!  Now that really takes the biscuit...

XXX


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## Flopsy

I'm in a different position to many of the posters here. I would argue that feeling "bitter and twisted" is uncomfortable. It's a strong awful, emotional position to be in and one that I didn't like at all when I started feeling that way.

However, over time this has changed. When we finished our IVF attempts I was an emotional mess. I'm not an emotional mess now (though I do have my days) and I would say that embracing and being comfortable with my own version of the "bitter and twisted" is the best thing for me.

I don't have some of the painful triggers that ladies here have described and I mean no disrespect for others coping mechanisms and others pain. We are all different.

What does "bitter and twisted" mean to people here and why is that so bad?


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## nbr1968

nbr1968 said:


> Dear Hopeful hazel
> 
> I am so sorry that you feel that life hold no meaning for you at this time; it would be trite to say that things will get better etc.... - it goes without saying though that we ladies on FF don't like to hear others feeling despair and we can only hope that by giving you a place to "voice" your feelings and be true to yourself can in some way be a bit healing. As Flopsy says we all have to find our own way to feel about this whole IF "journey" - mind you I would rather have not taken this particular trip.
> 
> I never thought I would feel these strong and sometimes overwhelming emotions, and I was just thinking that this thread is not so much "bitter and twisted" because that has negative connotations and makes us feel that our feelings are somehow subversive! Instead it is more a thread of ladies who are being totally honest and not censoring what they feel to make others feel comfortable - after all most of us spend our waking moments doing this and trying to pretend that we are ok.
> 
> Sometimes we are not ok, feel totally lost, feel we have no title that gives us validity, and feel a sense of hopelessness - and when we look in that mirror we sometimes see this sad, disappointed, empty, forlorn person looking back, and yet we known that person is not who we are. I am managing at the moment, but those lowest of times, those feelings of envy at those who have what I see from the outside as a "perfect" family, can sometimes leave me feeling so low that it is all i can do to get out of bed and get on with my day.
> 
> So "bitter and twisted" or just honest and frank, I thank all the ladies of FF for giving me this place to be myself without editing!
> 
> Nxxx


Flopsy, this is what i wrote and you will see that i think that we are all being frank and honest - not bitter and twisted - that is after all what FF is all about and it is healthy for everyone to be able to express themselves without editing (within limits of course, like not being rude or insensitive where you can help it!) - you go girls!

Nbr xxx


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## FS

Flopsy,

For me, B & T is as you describe - an uncomfortable, strong and awful emotional place.  I hate it, being angry with the world, feeling literally violated by the imposition of such injustice, feeling poisoned without any prospect of an antidote.  But all this means is that I hate being childless.  And, unlike you, I get all the strong rollercoaster surges of B & T with all the triggers that I and others describe.  So it's a really really unhappy place to be in.  But, on the other hand, an even worse place to be as far as I'm concerned, is that place where you have to 'pretend' to be ok, make concessions for people who don't understand/care, act as if you're feeling 'together' when, in fact, you're falling apart.  So B & T is 'bad' because it's horrid to feel angry and cheated all the time.  But, given that we have been cheated, it's the only appropriate space (for me anyway) at the moment.  But I don't feel ashamed or the need to apologise for the way I'm feeling at all - I think I have every right to feel this way, and it's the only way to stay partially sane, ie to not be denied expression.  Because, like I said elsewhere, I feel like I've been denied expression in every possible way - as a woman, as a person (people under-rate how terrible IF is), as an employee (no support for IFs), etc etc. So hooray for being able to shout B&T things to all you women on this board.

FS


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## estraka

FS - I can't believe that course your b*stard employers put you through!  unbelievable!  You could sue the sh*t out of them for emotional damage - not to mention the whole concept of the course being incredibly sexist and probably against anti-discrimination guidelines to start with!!!  I too am a civil servant, only in the Channel Islands with a different government so we tend to get the U.K latest bright management ideas copied over here a few years after they have been around the U.K.  God help them if they try to introduce those workshops here!!!!!! 

Francie, sorry to be so direct but your sister sounds like a complete b*tch!  It is bad enough when people are unwittingly insensitive without family members sticking the knife in with no excuse for not understanding how insensitive they are being!  Am also now feeling outraged at Brad and Angelina! scum!  as if it isn't bad enough that they trott around the globe making it look like it is easy to just pick up unwanted kids wherever they go!

Flopsy, I'm a big supporter of Nbr's take on the b&t title - total honesty/expression of self and no holding the punches!
I joined in this thread because I was one of the many walking wounded on this site and not sure where I 'fit', not sure what to do about the emotions I feel and looking at the prospect of "moving on" but not sure how to start.  As it happens, thanks to some great advice from FS, I'm not sure now if I am ready to move on at all and I am now seeking a second opinion from a different clinic and might yet give IVF another go.  However, even if my husband and I decide against continuing with the IVF rollercoaster, or if we get an equally negative prognosis from a different clinic, I am not sure I would be ready for the "deciding and accepting" aspect of this board.  I think it is perfectly natural to feel angry and even those who have 'decided and accepted' and 'moved on' with their lives no doubt still have their "bitter and twisted" days in which they need to vent their outrage and hurt.

For the most part of my day I am exactly in that place that FS describes as pretending to be ok and making concessions for people. Wednesday I smiled at my friend who is now 6 months pg and touched her belly to feel the baby kick and sympathised as she talked about being worried about stretch marks etc. and when she asked how my "situation" was going I spared her the details and smiled and said "we are doing fine".  Earlier that same day I smiled at my boss who asked over a work lunch "what life stage would you say you were going into now? Are you planning to have children?" and I mumbled something incoherent about not being sure rather than saying "I think that'll be the barren and useless stage of life, you absolute cretin!"  And on thursday, walking home after a meal with my husband to celebrate our wedding anniversary, I tried to laugh rather than cry at the irony when we discovered that our immediate neighbour is holding pre-natal classes from home and there are dozens of heavilly pregnant women waddling around my house twice a week!  I'll do my best to say hello and will definitely resist the urge to run them down with my car, and if they are really lucky I'll try not to get too vigilante about their inconsiderate parking around my driveway.

My friend can't help the fact that she is pg whilst I'm not and at the moment I'd rather she didn't know the extent of my hurt as I wouldn't want her to feel uncomfortable around me. My boss doesn't know anything about my personal life and his question is one that is fairly standard "small talk"; he is a nice guy and would never have meant to hurt me.  And the pg women displaying their fertility outside my window aren't to know they are a part of my personal nightmare.

Maintaining this reasonable face to the world is exhausting.  It helps to know that I am not a lone voice and there are others out there who will understand that part of me is disintegrating for every time I try and see it from other people's perspective rather than scream at how absolutely UNFORGIVABLE it is for my friend/boss/stupid waddling pg women to be rubbing my IF in my face.  

I'd hope that my b&t feelings and my IF will not consume my life completely and I hope that I can continue to find some rays of sunshine despite the massive cloud hanging over me; but I feel I am teetering on the edge of a black hole and I can sense how easy it would be to be swept under.  It is difficult to see the point of other aspects of life when you feel as though the whole meaning of life has been taken away from you.  I'm sorry that others are at rock bottom (perhaps FS is there?) and I hope you find a way out (but only when you are ready).

Whether this "b&t" thread is a temporary or more permanent refuge for all of us to express our rage and grief; whether it is the only place we express it whilst we go on with the pretence of normal life, or if we have long since given up with pretending in any aspect of our lives - the most important thing about it is that we don't judge each other and we shouldn't feel afraid to express even the most dark and "unreasonable" thoughts.

Best wishes to you all. x


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## FS

Estraka,

You are so articulate - hat doffed!  For the first time I feel that this site has given me a place to scream and shout as well act as a sanctuary of affirmation - nobody in my non-cyber life has acknowledged the real pain of IF or supported me with the mutual outrage that you and others on this board have.  So thank you!  I am feeling a bit mad (huh, what's new) and guilty about slagging off that personal development course so much.  Reason being that it lasted 4 days, and actually, lots of it was about assertiveness, goal-setting etc (the usual stuff).  It's just that the DEFAULT position for the women-centric focus of the course was having children, juggling work-family life, flexible working for mums, creche etc etc.  in other words, I felt bombarded whenever we got to that default position, but the rest of the time it was good.  I was supposed to give feedback to this course, and wanted to tell them how painful this had all been for me, and how inconsiderate they were.  But I fell into the black hole and couldn't even muster the strength to do it.  Now that I've been signed off, it will be on my list of things to do.  

Can I ask your and others' opinion about something?  Since my 24-yr old brother-in-law told us he and his girlfriend are pregnant, we haven't heard a thing from mother in law or sister in law.  They're avoiding us, obviously.  It's something they've repeatedly done since our IVF started, and when we've challenged them, they say it's because they're afraid of saying the wrong things.  I mean, it would be nice if they didn't ALWAYS say the wrong things, eg when, by coincidence, my first ever IVF turned into GIFT on the very same day that my sister-in-law had a baby, the in-laws phoned to say that they wouldn't be coming to visit me and my husband because 'she (sister-in-law) is our priority'. Yep, thanks, we know that a producer of live babies is so much more appealing than a very sad and fragile woman who cannot guarantee you a grandchild, and we really didn't need to have it rubbed in our faces.  But we have nevertheless repeatedly told the in-laws that we would rather they just told us they were afraid of saying the wrong things (preferably before saying them) rather than just ignore us.  But none of this works.  They either continue to say awful things to us, or they just give us a wide berth.  Both husband and I feel permanently scarred by their lack of kindness (someone on this board - I think it was Francie - described how she felt so often as if she had had to 'beg for compassion' - 'ping!' immediate recognition. So resonant.)  In spite of being brought to our knees by cruel comments and constant begging, the lack of compassion continues.  Do you think it unreasonable of us to expect my husband's family to call to see how we are in light of this new news of his young brother's accidental sprogging?  Am I mad to think that perhaps the family, having seen all that we've been going through, might just want to give a few hugs, say they must know how it hurts, acknowledge the impact it must be having in some way?  Is this an unreasonable hope/expectation?

FS


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## estraka

Thanks, that compliment means a lot. 
Yuk. so sorry to hear that you have in-law trouble. I don't think that is *at all * an unreasonable expectation - but nevertheless if it is an unrealistic one, you are still the ones that suffer the most. It is amazing how something like IF can really sort the wheat from the chaff of your friends and family. Some I can be completely myself with, some I have to pretend with because I know they won't hack the raw stuff, some have just been so insensitive that I've just realised they weren't that good friends after all and I've distanced myself from them. It sounds as though your in-laws are not good at relationships or handling emotions and unfortunately it is unlikely they will change, at least certainly not overnight and not without considerable effort on your part. It doesn't mean they don't care though - just that they can't handle your suffering. They feel guilty/upset around you and so seek to avoid you, or may even feel resentful towards you for evoking those emotions in them and making them face something they don't want to face. Assuming they do care but are just crap at expressing it, then that should be easier to forgive them for; everybody is fallible and not everyone is good at emotions. Unfortunately because you clearly have far more emotional insight and capability than they do, if you do maintain contact with them you end up having to take responsibility for the relationship and giving them clear signposts on what is appropriate behaviour. When you are the one that requires nurturing it is not easy to have to be the adult of the relationship and it can be exhausting.

Perhaps you could write them a letter to explain how you feel? (so much easier than face-to-face where it is easy to react to each other and for defences to go up). Perhaps you could give them a book/literature that might help them understand what you are going through? The only other thing I can suggest is that before you see/speak to them you imagine to yourself how you would want them to behave/what you would want them to say and how you would react to that and then when you do see them assume that how you wanted them to feel _is_ how they feel and react to them as if their behaviour was how you wanted it to be. I know it sounds nutty but it can be a very powerful way of influencing people's behaviour. They take their cues from you and also want to live up to the person you are pretending they are! e.g. explain how you are feeling but peppered with statements that make it clear they are supposed to be on the same page and telling them what you need: "I know you understand...we really appreciate your support...we appreciate you have given us space knowing that we would be upset with how this pregnancy reflects on our own situation, but we would really love a hug right now..." etc. I know it might stick in the throat when you suspect (probably rightly) that their ignoring your feelings is more to protect their own feelings than out of respect for yours, but by not pointing that out and reinforcing positives wherever possible they might adapt.

It might be that you will never have more than a superficial relationship with them but if you can summon up the energy it might be worth trying to break the destrutive pattern they seem to be in. It is good news that your husband sees it too and doesn't seem to be expecting you to put up with it.


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## rainbowjo

Hi Ladies

Sorry i have been awol last week, i was ill and could not get on the computer. 
This thread has sure been developing and its great! I would like to thank you all for such wonderful and honest posts, all of which i relate to. It is so very healing to have this place i feel so much more ' free' if that is the right word. I did not realise how exhausting it had been trying to be 'positive' all the time and act like things were ok when they were not all. Itis so good to have this place where i can say how i truly feel with no one trying to make me feel better with well meant words, just people who really do understand. 
I was trying to make my dh understand how i felt and used this to try and explain, i dont know if any of you agree or not. I said it was like i was with a huge group of people all starving hungry. Then some kind person took us all through to a big hall with tables full of food. We all sat down and people began eating, just as i was about to take a bite of food almost at my mouth, some person came up, knocked it off my fork and draged me away from the table saying i could not have any. This was bad enough but as i was being led out of the hall another person came and said no i could not leave i had to stand and watch as everyone else ate as much as they wanted. This explains how i feel about things and it really made my dh understand me more.
If this is anything like how you feel FS i dont know if it would help your inlaws understand a bit more? 
It is so hard to make people undrstand. I remember once i told my mum i was fed up and she just said'well i dont why! You have a lovely husband job etc. Maybe because i had just had my 4th miscarriage! I dont tell her anyomore i just say i am fine, luckily she lives faraway so its not too much of problem but she really hurt me.
Love to all
Rainbow


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## jq

Hello everyone,

I am sorry to say I have not had time to do justice to all the posts here. Just wanted to say that from what I have dipped into I recocognise so many of the feelings and experiences. It is fantastic that this thread has given so many people the freedom to give vent to feelings that are not listened to or accepted elsewhere! When I was feeling at my most bitter and twisted I did not have this board as an outlet or a source of support, maybe had I had such an opportunity I would have coped better? (Believe me, I made mistakes, such as leaving DH. Luckily back together now.)

At the risk of sounding "saccarinne" I want to add that I firmly believe there is more to we permanantly IF women than the bitterness we feel at the devastation of all our hopes for a family and especially when met by insensitivity. After all, the positive mothering(loving/nurturing/caring/creative/bonding......) instincts we wanted to express through having a child have not simply evaporated. The fact that we feel so sad and bad that our totally natural desire to experience motherhood has been twarted proves that we have deep needs to express our loving/nurturing/caring/creative/bonding......natures. 

I guesss this is what I understand "moving on " to be about: to accept the bitterness I feel while finding new ways to stay connected to and express my mothering spirit. I hope this makes sense?

LOL to all,

Jq xxx


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## AnneS

Hello,

I stumbled over this thread and am just so glad I found it. I read the last 2-3 pages (not quite from its start, but will do!) and have to say that the only problem I have is, that I cannot say it better than others have already done here. Thank you all for sharing, I hope this thread goes on and on.
I always notice how most threads are read by many many more people than ''writers'. That is not a bad thing, I just mean to say, you reach so many people by taking the time to express yourselves. I wish I could write like that. I have taken huge inspiration just when I thought I  have ot slide into a dark, uneventful, misunderstood life. Now I want to go and talk to my frined and my brother and try to give (?? did not want to write 'make') them understanding. We need to be understood, even if it is not by those that we think are closest to us. Does that make sense?? I am just thinking about what somebody said here about that through IF you find out who is a good friend/relative and who is actually not that close to you after all. Here I go finding out ...

JQ - so nice to read that you are back to gether with your DH.

I am thinking of you all: Rainbow, estraka, FS, Nbr, Flopsy, Francie, meerkatz, Poogie, Hopeful Hazel, Bernie, Emcee, MandyB1971, Juicygem, Florie (loved your 'I survived' thread!!), INCONCEIVABLE (The Princess Bride, I hope??), tracey-ann, Griselda, Myownangle, Joan.

PHEW. I just wanted to inlcude everyone.

Take care, stay - well - what ever is right for you: bitter, twisted, happy, mad, sour, fluffy, light, undefined, hairy, funny, loud, impatient, sane (?) - please keep writing!!!

Caroline


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## Francie

Hello everyone

I'm still here, reading and thinking about what people have added to this.  There's so much eloquence here, so much reflection and, actually, so much generousity. (Despite all our anger and rage against the unfairness of life, we're all still concerned about the needs of other people.) But above all, there's so much "fellowship in suffering". That phrase describes exactly what this board does for me. I am so sorry you're all living this nightmare too but I'm so glad I'm not alone. Thank you all so much for your fellowship. 

For me IF has been a double whammy.  You can't have the family you so desperately want. Then on top of that you have to deal with being excluded by friends and family members. We've talked alot here about why people do that. I guess having what we can't, they feel guilty and uncomfortable around us. Pretty shallow and pathetic. All the women I used to know who had also had trouble with pregnancy loss or IF have had babies. Sometimes it feels they're the keenest to keep away as if they don't want to have to remember how horrible IF is. Very shallow and pathetic. Most of my friends now have young kids so they don't have the time and give the same priority to friendship they used to. I understand that and don't expect friendships not to change. But also I feel that my many years of bad luck have just got boring. I used up most of the compassion of my friends with the first two pregnancies I lost. Now, after several more years, with each loss compounding the last and the last loss of finally having to admit we won't have children, I feel more desperate and in need of love and support than ever.  

And "moving on and accepting" isn't just about the loss of the children we nearly had and desperately wanted.  It's also, for me, about the realisation that friendship and family support are disappointingly limited and deciding how to deal with that.  When I look in the future (that's hard, I don't really believe in the future) I don't want my life to be empty of people that know and love me. I don't want to lose the friends I had since university as we have so much shared history they're part of me.  But I find it so hard to accept how let down I've often been. 

But it's not inevitable that people let us down. FS, you are NOT expecting too much from your inlaws. I know some people think I'm so "over-sensitive" I'll jump down their throats whatever they say. Or nothing they can say makes any difference. Not true (and usually excuses for not even trying!  Some of the things that make me feel better:

Having people ask me how I am and listen for more than 5 minutes while I talk
Having people acknowledge it's not fair and I am right to feel angry because my DH and I have been really unlucky time after time
Having people tell me they recognise and admire the strength and bravery that keeping on trying for so many years has taken
Having people tell me they love me and believe I will find the strength to get through this and they will be there for me when I need help 
Having people phone or e-mail to say they're thinking of us
Flowers, cards or other tokens that say "we're thinking of you".

Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure any of these out, do you? 

This is an especially hard time for us.  This week would have been the 2nd birthday of the baby we lost with our 3rd pregnancy.  How I have got through these would-have-been-birthdays before is by telling myself by this time next year I am bound to be pregnant again or have a baby.  This is the first time I can't do that as our last IVF ended in disaster 2 weeks ago.  I also find this one hardest of all because it was a ruptured ectopic.  I find it really hard not to dwell on the fact I actually had an operation to STOP me being pregnant. 

Thanks again to all of you.


xxxxxxx


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## FS

Francie, 

Every time I read your posts it's as if you're expressing exactly the things I want to express!  What you described as the double whammy of friends and family letting you down corrodes my insides too, and is the other half of what has turned me into an angry, angry person.  Being nice to a very sad person should be so easy.  But it's as if we're surrounded by wild animals who, having sensed us 'defective' sterile ones, now proceed with great cruelty to drive us out of the pack to fend for ourselves.  Very primitive.

I am struck by the variations on cruelty that the universe manages to gob up for each of us - your recent operation being a striking example.  I'm sorry you're going through what you're going through.  Only 2 weeks on from your ectopic it is obvious how heartbreaking all of it is.  But in the  spirit of your last post, I would like genuinely to say that I DO think you're brave and strong for carrying on with all the treatment, time after sod.ing time, and I think all of us on this board know that you have every right to be angry.  Please keep posting your rage.

FS xxx


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## estraka

Hello everyone.  I hope the fact that this thread has gone quiet for a bit means you are all having better days and not b&t ones!  I have been keeping pretty occupied.  Have been feeling a bit down this week, but it isn't rocket science why coz my sister came to visit monday night with my 18mth niece and I spent a happy couple of hours tues morning babysitting.  I wouldn't give up quality aunty time for the world, but not surprisingly I was feeling particularly crap last night after they had gone.

A number of you have commented about feeling let down by friends and family who don't react well.  I've been giving this a lot of thought recently, trying to imagine what I would say in their shoes.  I think Francie is right that surely it can't be rocket science to do something thoughtful for someone you care about (or even someone you don't to be honest!) who is hurting.  I think it is hard for people to be around others in pain; perhaps it reminds them of how crap life can be? perhaps because they don't know what to say in a situation in which the usual social platitudes simply won't do? (but they use them anyway for want of anything more profound).  My niece seems to instinctively understand and puts up with rather suffocating affection from me!  Same with my two cats who follow me around and sit on my head and chest at night! 

I've had a few reasonable days though where I've managed not to think about it much and have found small pleasures in the day.  I guess I just have to bide my time until eventually those days will hopefully outnumber the days of absolute panic and pain.

Thinking of you all - FS, Francie, Rainbow, Jq, Caroline, Nbr, Flopsy, Emcee, Bernie, Hazel, Meerkatz, poogie, florie, griselda, joan, mandy, juicygem, inconceivable and tracey (and anyone I've missed); here is wishing you "sweet and straight" days!! (as in opposite of b&t in case anyone was thinking I was being homophobic!).


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## Griselda

In the spirit of 'Bitter and Twisted'

Anyone seen the new thing on 'This Morning' the Mumpreneur?  (I watched it because they filmed a bit of it behind my desk   ).  

Anyway, oh how lovely and quaintsy and cute to have all the lovely cuddly yummy mummies on who are also trying to  start their own businesses and help one of them.  Yeugh!  What about all the non-mums too.  FGS.  Arg.

Guess that's another something wrong with us.


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

On the subject of This Morning, I was watching it the other day when they were talking about bereavement.
There was a tragic case of a child dying and the mother was distressed, understandably. There was Gloria Hunniford there with her tragic loss of her daughter and the counsellor, who's son also has died. 

She said that although the child has died, and that is terrible, you will never get over it, they would not have wanted it any other way in terms of knowing the child and having them, even for a short time.

How to make the infertile amongst us feel even worse than they already do - what is worse than having a child die on you? - not having one at all!

Here is the email I sent to the programme.....

I just listened to your feature on bereavement and the loss of a child, which is absolutely tragic. What really struck me was the feelings of loss of your future, not seeing them grow up, get married or have your grandchildren. The unending pain and covering up your life with a blanket, and putting on a smile to the world through your pain.

I just wanted to raise the voice of unintentionally childless (infertile) women out there, of which I am one. We experience similar levels of grief, pain, sadness and distress, but somehow society does not care. To society, what we never actually held in our arms cannot be grieved for or lost. There is no sympathy or ceremony to mark our grief. It goes on forever and we are made to feel that our feelings are invalid and ridiculous. There is no photograph on the mantelpiece or name on a gravestone.

To me the disorder of my life caused by infertility is unbelievable. I am stuck in this black hole that I cannot get out of. I got married and thought babies would be along soon. I thought I would see them grow up. I worked hard to give them a great future. I looked forward to giving them a great life, to grandchildren and to leaving my family's inheritance to them. Now I am left with nothing.

Please spare a thought for us.

I bet there will not be a feature on this! Too painful?


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## Flopsy

Great email Hazel,

I presume on the bereavement program someone suggested that they should all go out straight-away and adopt and then they would magically feel better

Or did they then interview someone who had paid to have their dead pet cloned and suggest that they looking into cloning to replace their dead children.

That's what they do to us - suggest outragous, expensive, long, complicated or just not medically possible (yet!) solutions as a way of making us "feel better". Like h*ll it does.


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## estraka

So glad I missed the Mumpreneur article Griselda - I would have been shouting at the t.v. again!  yuk!!!!  That is worse than the "yummy mummy" features.

That was a good email Hazel - I hope they take it on board.  It would be great to have more articles/coverage to teach people how to treat someone with IF and what NOT to say - great examples Flopsy!

A "friend" of mine recently emailed me saying she wanted to meet up as she had good news to tell me.  We have been out of touch for some time as she has done a few things that I found rather selfish and she hadn't really been there for me in some low times of IF (which she knows all about) so we had drifted apart, but like a fool I agreed to meet up.  Since I knew through mutual friends she had been dating someone for three months and that he was thinking of moving over to be with her I assumed the news would be that he had arrived or they had got engaged or something.  But no, the news is that she is three months pg. complete accident.  Not only was she callous enough to crow about it and bang on about how it is "fate" and "meant to be", she didn't once ask me how I was or it seem to cross her brain that I might be upset by her news.  Definitely an acquaintance I won't be trying too hard to keep!

Good night all. x


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE

Hello girls, 

Now don't know what to think or do about this.  Any thoughts? 

My ex 'best-freind' has just had a m/carriage at 8 wks.  It turned out we were pregnant at the same time.  She knew I had treatment in August, but never ever asked me how I was doing, so I didn't mention my m/carriage to her as she told me she was preggers at the time, so I didn't want to spoil her good news in a sort of bitter and twisted way as it were...   

So i texted her, said how awfully sorry I felt that she had a m/carriage and mentioned my piece of bad news on this occasion.  Not a word from her,, however.  So I sent another text saying that my dr told me that the most likely cause for the m/carriage was the embryo problem in my case and that she shouldn't feel guilty in any way that she has done sth that has caused a m/carriage. (she was flat-hunting and was told to rest by her dr at one point).  Not a word again.  

Should I just leave it at this point?  Her b/day is in a week's time, so don't know whether I should text her.  She didn't remember my b/day.  I sometimes wander why I am tiptoeing around other people when they obviously don't bother.  I have developed a chronic low self-esteem, methinks, following the whole infertility palavar...    

Hope you are all doing well... Have been going through tough time with DH, so considering my options at the mo... Work is also a bit 'not nice' at the mo...  Lots of love and hugs to you all.... 

Estraka - know the feeling as the same thing happened to my above mentioned ex-best friend...


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## FS

Griselda,

That mumpreneur thing - didn't see it, but just the title makes me want to puke.  Who do they think they are? Stupid oestrogen-infused moo cows who think they're real tough and gutsy for earning a living once they've sprogged.  Are we supposed to applaud these women who have got it oh so tough?  Arggh!

Hopeful H,

nice email, DO tell us if anyone bothers to reply.  I feel like sending them Flopsy's follow-up comments as a supplement!  In fact, the next time some couldn't-care-less fertile person asks me, 'why don't you adopt', I am going  to use the example of this programme (even though I never saw it myself), along with both of your comments, to make them see just how insensitive and lazy such questions are.

Estraka,

Yep, there goes another one of those so-called mates.  I so feel for you, and every time I hear a new example of the crap friend/family member, I want to send them evil vibes so that they feel some pain too.  I know it's a very unhealthy outlook, so I'd better shut up and try putting my 'goodwill to all' meditation classes into practice.  

Inc,

Your mate has not been a mate to you.  She has previously told you that she found your expressions of grief to be one big moan that she was sick of, so I wonder why you should feel the need to return to her now.  And the thing is, putting aside what a silly cow she was to you in your time of need, she is probably feeling absolutely terrible right now.  I expect she is wrapped up in her own grief, and the prospect of someone who she's previously dismissed now being there to say, 'I know how you feel' is probably all too much for her.  She  knows she dismissed you, and it probably makes her feel bad.  And secondly, like all of us, she'll have her own take on her own story, and will feel she is the only one that understands her own pain right now. Having someone compare stories so close to the grief-inducing event can sometimes feel suffocating.  So if I were you, I wouldn't pursue her.  If she wants to get in touch with you she will.  If she doesn't, then I think you've already seen enough of her superficial friendship.  Of course, only you will know how much this person means to you, and whether you really want her back in your life.  How's DH this week?  Thank-you by the way for the message you left on my profile - only just seen it.  And tell your husband that the sentiment behind your/his message is being carried around in my mental wallet right now!  You should get him to post on here - B&T men are also welcome!

As for me, have had quite a tough couple of weeks.  But there's so much of it, and I've talked enough already.  Maybe later.

Hugs to all,

FS


----------



## Mistletoe (Holly)

There is a possibility that this friend has lost or changed her phone, or that she genuinely is really grief stricken about her miscarriage   and cannot face the world right now. Maybe call her directly and arrange to pop around, just to see how she is doing? She might not have got your message, before you jump to any conclusions.

Sometimes, however terrible we feel, offering a hand to someone sinking can make us feel better knowing that we did not stoop to other's levels when they ignored us in our grief. I know you have texted her, but this might not have got through. At least if you speak to her and just gently ask "how are you?", you will be able to see her response.


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## estraka

Inc, I think both Hazel and FS have some good points there - if you do decide to contact her I would suggest writing a card to let her know you are there for her when and if she needs you, rather than telephone her as Hazel suggests.  Then the ball is in her court and you have extended the offer of friendship and support without having to be faced with a potentially difficult conversation.  It may be that she rejects your kindness again and that would be easier just not to hear back from a card than to feel rejected in person on the telephone.

It is not just her that is in a fragile state - you have to protect your own feelings too.

Noone could blame you if you decide to cut your losses as FS suggests since it sounds as though she has not been a very good friend to you - only you know if she has completely burnt her bridges or not.


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## Francie

Inc, I'm so, so sorry to hear about your miscarriage. Losing a pregnancy is awful at any time but when you've longed for and worked for it so hard, it's just crushing. The double whammey of IF and pregnancy loss is so cruel.  And the fact that you are making emotional space to worry about this friend when you've been through so much, even not sharing your own mc with her so as not to spoil her happy news, really is testament to how much you are trying to do the right thing by her. I agree with all the advice given by the others.  Maybe you could send a birthday card with a special message asking how she's doing? But I have my own experience on this too and something FS said also really resonated for me - the comparison of grief inducing events. I have several times felt that my early miscarriages have been minismised by friends who have had later ones, even though they haven't had to try so long to get pregnant and got pregnant quickly afterwards and this really hurt. From what you've said before about how this friend has not been sympathetic or sensitive to your situation, I would be wary that she might try the whole "my mc was worse than yours" line on you and this is the last thing you need. I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted the situation and reading something into it that isn't there but I just wanted to share it. I also really identify with what you said about tiptoeing round friends who have actually let you down.  I'm right there with you.  And I think your phrase "chronic low self esteem due to the whole IF palaver" is a perfect description. With all that you've been through, your relationship and work are bound to be under alot of stress. I hope you can find some safe space for you. Sending lots of hugs. 

FS, sorry to hear you've had a tough few weeks.  Come back and share it with us if you feel able. 

Estaka, I'm so sorry about your "friend's" treatment of you.  I always find it upsetting to hear other people's "happy" news (in fact I actually live in fear.  I even get upset if it's a fictional character on the tv or radio or in a book.  ).  But to hear it like this from a "friend" who knows what you've been through and wants to to crow on about it is awful.

Hazel, I liked your email and,  Flopsy,  your comments were great.  I would add maybe someone (with living children, of course) could have pointed out the benefits of not having children - you know, all those long holidays and evenings out and shopping trips we childless get to enjoy!!!!

Griselda, the mumpreneur think is unbelieveable.  Yet more evidence of what a child and pregnancy obsessed society we live in nowdays. The other day I heard an articel on Women's Hour on radio 4 when the Minister for Women was interviewed.  Practically every question was about the rigths of working mothers or the provision of childcare.  Why don't they just call it Mothers' Hour?

As for me, life has been very difficult. My DH and I are about to take up new jobs which means moving to a new country so we are packing up the house we are in now. We aren't selling and will come back to live here again in a few years but it's really hard because I love this house and where we live.  So it feels like this coming so soon after our last ICSI attempt and having to give up the hope of being parents, is like the end of all good things.  On top of this, some friends of ours with 3 young children are coming to live on our house so I keep thinking how other people's children will be doing all the things here that mine should but never will. We had a terrible evning last night. This family came to see us with our neighbours. I found it so hard watching my DH play with the kids in our kitchen and our neighbours cooing over them. One actually said "it's been so long since I saw children in this house.  It's so lovely to have them here." I felt like such a failure and so, so sad    . When they left I had a massive row with my DH, though we've made up now. He doesn't understand how hard seeing small children is for me, let alone in  my own house. These days I feel like I've gone from being quite young to being an old woman overnight because I've completely missed out the parenting stage of my life. Anyone else feel like this? 

Thanks for reading. Love to all of you.

xxxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE

My dear girls - Hopeful Hazel, Estraka, FS and France, 

So lovely to hear from you all.  It's amazing that I get this kind of response from people who don't know me but online, and not such luck with friends.  Thx everybody for your advice.  

FS - hope you feel better soon.  Thx for your pm as well that you sent recently.  The comparison of grief is what made me hesitate I think.  Are you still on leave or are you back at work?  

Estraka - you articulate things v. well I think from what I have read so far.  Your friend was a bit of a cow to have talked about her happy news in such an insensitive manner.  

Francie - thx.  Several things you said are so well put ie about the whole grief thing and whose grief is worse....  Where are you moving to?  It may help to go away for a while.  I think it's v. brave of you and DH to change jobs at the time when you are still emotionally so raw.  It's certainly a challenge more to deal with and also moving countries. Wow ... Am well impressed.  Totally understable about your being upset by kids in your house.  I don't even like people talking about their kids now tbh.  I hope things improve with time.  

Speak soon ...  Keep the thread going.  I think it's v. important to have an outlet where one doesn't have to worry about posting the news that are not so positive...at all times...Lots of love & hugs.. Inc


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## estraka

Francie - I hope you will still get good internet connection wherever you are off to and keep checking in with us to let us know how you are doing!  I was so upset reading your news about moving and missed dreams of children being able to enjoy your house.  I think I know what you mean.  We moved into our current house 5 years ago with it in mind that it would be perfect for children and I still love the house but it doesn't seem quite the same somehow.  It is like there are memories here that have never even happened - the echoes of my imagined children in the nest that I prepared for them that goes unused.  My husband talks wistfully sometimes about other people's children and it breaks my heart that most men don't think about having kids much until it happens but he has had so much longer to get used to the idea and he is so ready to be such an amazing dad but might never get to be one.  I feel angry with myself that I feel that situation so keenly as a failure on my part.  Why in this modern age do we feel this innate duty to be the provider of children? the perfect wife? the perfect nest-builder?  And yet we are also led to believe we should be able to have a full career as well.  F-ing mumpreneurs!!!!!!! making us slaves to feeling like we are supposed to be bloody super-women and if we don't have our cake and eat it we must be defective!  (sorry went off on a rant there!) Getting back to you - I hope as Inc says that the fresh start is helpful to you but I can completely understand that you are finding it difficult.  Perhaps "moving on" physically will also help you move on from your IF - and don't forget that you have a mobile support network on this forum!

FS, hope all is well with you and things are seeming more positive. x

I'm finding it so difficult to articulate my grief to anyone at the moment outside of this forum and my husband and I don't really talk about it at all either.  It is almost too big to know where to start.  I had dinner with my friend (a good one!) last night and she had bumped into my husband and it seemed as though he had opened up to her in saying how difficult the last few years had been than he has ever done with me.  I was relieved that he is at least not closing off his emotions as much as he does sometimes but it also adds to my list of feeling incompetent as care-giver.  It is weird how this has brought us closer and we know how we feel, so I guess it doesn't need to be said, but we are both also trying to protect the other from our strength of feeling.

Sorry to ramble - I'm a bit overwhelmed at this moment. Probably should be in bed.  I've been so in control recently - sensing my "Falling Down" moment approaching fast!  Roll on holidays!

Take care all.

Est.


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## estraka

me again. Just checked out a link elsewhere and found this one: http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/human-speed-humps.html - tips on how to deal with people who act as human speed bumps in our lives and are saboteurs to our well-being! Seemed apt for some of the "friends" we have all seemingly discovered to be less than friendly when the chips are down!

x


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## Francie

Inc, thanks for your lovely words.  We're off to India. Sometimes I think we must be mad to be doing all this while we're both still grieving about the IF. But this opportunity came up. We have basically put our life on hold for the last few years to focus on treatment. Financially we need to work now (all that treatment has left us in debt) and emotionally I think we need to have another focus and a distraction. I think it is the right thing to do but it is drawing the line under all our treatment and hopes of heaving children so leaving will be very hard. We actually move out on Thursday. It will be a very tearful day for me (I seem to spend alot of time crying in public places these day!). I wanted to move on to the next stage in my life but I wanted that to be motherhood. 

Estraka, your words and very eloquent and moving.  The ways IF and failed treatment tests and changes our relationships are unexpected and enormous. We have gone through so many stages, my DH being positive and me being negative and the other way round and to different degrees, but rarely being in the same mental place at the same time which caused lots of tension. We did go through a stage when I got very angry with my DH because he never shared with friends our IF. Now he does much more than me as I have become very wary about being let down and find it to hard to share my feelings. Now we're both just very sad. But I also have a tendency to be very self destruction and angry in my grief. Not good and not fair on my DH. My DH finds it very hard to talk about how he is feeling and I suppose sometimes I think this means he isn't hurting.  But I know he is. The thing I find so hard is watching him play with other people's kids.  It's too much for me now.  But this makes him worry that I'll never want to be friends with people with kids, and as a sociable person who likes kids he wants to. Sorry, I'm talking about myself.  I guess what I wanted to say is I understand and recognise some of what you describe and am feeling for you and with you. You sentence about it not needing to be said was lovely and really resonated for me.  I guess we just have to keep telling ourselves that the way IF makes us feel as couples and individuals constantly changes and the key thing is to try to stay close.  Thanks also for the link.  I loved the analogy of "human speed humps".

Love and hugs to all of you on this thread. 

xxxx


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## FS

Francie, I can feel your sorrow of the 'haunted house' syndrome.  Why on earth did we build these empty nests?  And your observation about going from being young to old is so spot-on!  Robbed of the middle bits.  Being old should feel satisfying in part - a time to stand back and look at achievements (including children), and a time to say that you don't mind the grey hairs or the stretch marks, because you've gladly given your youth over to having kids.  But fat belly has nothing to do with the joy of having kids, only the effect of high hormone doses.

Strangely enough, this year I have been toying with the idea of prodding dh into trying to get a secondment job in India.  I've never been, but its hectic and colourful pace appeals as a potential destination - if anywhere is going to be even a tiny distraction, India ought to promise at least a degree of it.  What will you be doing there?

I too feel so sad when I see husband playing with others' kids.  It's like a hollywood blockbuster of cliched tear-jerk moments!  A while ago he was handing an Oxford University magazine to my 11-yr old niece because she said she wanted to go there, and my husband did go there.  And he has such artistic and kind hands, and watching his sweet hands put this magazine in my sister's child's hands was just so painful.  His hands should be giving advice and love and alumni magazines to his own children!  I can feel the emptiness not just in the whole of me, but in so many gestures, big and small, in him.  

The 'what might have beens' have also been a source of my grief this past couple of weeks.  Youngest sister asked me to visit her, which I did.  We went for a walk in the park with my niece and nephew, the latter being 19 months old (same age mine would have been had I not miscarried).  He's just starting to enjoy walking.  Anyhow, the park was teeming with mothers and todlers, and I was overwhelmed by this feeling of being 'the other', the sad, old, barren nobody.  At times I was almost choking.  Then on the way home, my sis asked me to push this empty pram whilst my nephew tried to walk.  I was so overwhelmed.  My chest was pounding and my eyes were brimming, and I wanted to die, to not exist at all.  How fitting that I, the eunuch of the family, should be asked to push an empty pram.  I didn't cry in front of sis or kids, but I did on the tube, and when I got home, for days actually.  Also had a sister's birthday dinner party to go to.  I've got 3 sisters, all with kids.  I was surrounded by them and sis' friends, and everyone seemed to be chattering about... yes, you guessed.  And of course I was asked by one of sis' friends who had a sparkle in her eye, 'do you have kids'?  And when I said no, the light in her eye turned into evasion, and she didn't know what to say to me.  And other friends made a b-line past me to some of my other sisters, a couple of whom trumpeted delightedly, 'Ah, you're Thomas' (or substitue for any other of my sisters' kids) mother aren't you?'.  I was just sitting there, again my chest tightening and my eyes welling up.  DH and I left early, but we're sure nobody missed us - it was as if we were ghosts, and the party certainly went on happily without us.  Every other day seems to be characterised by one of these gut-wrenching incidents.  

Then young brother in-law keeps wanting me and dh to meet up with him and his 4-months pregnant girlfriend.  They've NEVER been so persistent about wanting to see us before: he RARELY says anything about our IF, never used to call when we were in the middle of treatment, and she has NEVER EVER mentioned it at all, nor asked how we are.  Suddenly they want to spend time with us.  The whole idea is making me feel nauseous.  I simply don't know what to do.  Husband's brother is about the only family member dh is speaking to, and that's probably because his insensitivity has been less harshly judged by us by virtue of his youth (24).  But if he's old enough to father a child, then he should be old enough to give his brother emotional support.  But, of course, it never works like that.  And dh and I are always the ones who end up having our faces rubbed in s.it.  Rant rant rant.  Sorry.  Plenty more stories, but I'm becoming SO boring and will stop.


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## estraka

Hi FS - Not boring - just heart-breaking.  there are so many shared parts of these stories that I can't imagine it harms anyone to share them "out loud" on this forum.  We understand.  It helps to have a collective voice for pain.  I'm so glad you shared your tough experiences over the last few weeks that you alluded to previously.

Got to go as way past bed time and I'm exhausting myself recently trying to take on too much.  I just didn't want to leave your touching post unanswered.

Night all. x


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## Francie

Oh FS, I was almost crying too, reading your post, so beautifully written and with so much resonance for me. As always, there is nothing I can say to take away even a tiny fraction of the pain. But please believe you are NOT ranting, you are NOT boring (oh no, anything but!) and you are NOT alone. There are a few of us out here you know what you're going through. You describe so well the feeling of isolation that childlessness at our age provokes. That feeling that we're left out of the most important shared experience women can have. In my head I always call it the "happy motherhood club" and it feels like I've almost managed to prise the door open a few times (when I've been briefly pregnant) before it's been slammed shut in my face. I imagine myself looking in at the window at all the excitement and joy inside, while I'm out in the cold. A very cheesy image but it comes automatically and is so powerful it takes my breath away. One of the very few things that makes me feel a little better is the virtual support and comfort I get here. We have another club going in away. Not one that any of us would want to be a member of. But perhaps all the more powerful because we have no choice. I found an interesting blog the other day written by an American woman in a similar position. I'm not normally one for blogs but in my need to feel I wasn't alone, I found it comforting. You might like to have a look. It at http://coming2terms.com/.

I'm thinking of you. Do come back and post when you feel you need to at as much length as you want. Oh and, I'll be mainly in Dehli working for a medical NGO. And keep working on your husband. If you get to India we could even meet in the flesh!

xxxx


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## FS

My 'therapist' asked me whether I had thought about adoption.  It had to happen, didn't it.  She has no specific training in infertility issues, but a few weeks back, before I agreed to go with her, she assured me that she understood infertility to be like other forms of bereavement.  And now she does what everyone else does, treats me as if my grief can be dismissed with a bargain basement adoption.  I quoted Hopeful H and Flopsy on that programme they saw.  Instead of the penny dropping, my therapist said "you're angry with me because I'm trying to envisage solutions and a future".  I insisted that she was manipulating what I'd just said, and that if she listened carefully she'd see that I was angry because she was NOT treating my grief like a bereavement at all (again I quoted Flopsy's example, saying she'd never suggest adoption to a mother who'd lost a child who had actually been living).  But I don't think she got it at all.  And today my sister said, "well the fact that so many infertile couples do go on to adopt means that there are people out there who don't think it outrageous to suggest adoption".  Well that's true, plenty of people do go out and adopt, and I'm sure parents of recently deceased children don't.  So what can I say to that?  Nothing.  Does this mean I must now be force-fed the idea that, yet again, I couldn't possibly understand the grief of a real mother who's lost a child (ie I'm never going to be a real woman/human), and that sort of grief is so much worse than my own (mine can be cured by adoption).  I feel as if no one is prepared to see how painful this is.  Nobody understands.  It's like screaming for help, but there's nothing out there but cold and emptiness.

Can anyone recommend a therapist who actually gets it?  I've asked my doctor, and the occupational health people at work, and both say there are no therapists (as opposed to counsellors) trained in this specific area.  Can this be true?  Given that society neglects and rejects us, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were true.  Still, if any of you have heard otherwise, grateful if you could share the info.  I am feeling so hopeless and exhausted.  And bereaved.


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## riley

Hi everyone

At last people who know how Im feeling.

Big hugs to u all.   

Will write more when I get a chance but just wanted to say thank you for voicing all what im thinking.

Riley
x


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## Bratt

Me Too!!!!! I thought it was just me  my worst worst one is the YUMMY MUMMY AAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Mylee Class!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! Mothers day this year drove me up the bl***y wall!! Music for Mummys!!!! Give me strength!!!!!!

I say a huge THANK YOU to all you ladies on this post, I am not alone!!!!!

Jen


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## Flopsy

Bl**dy cr*p therapists!!!

Who needs "solutions" on a "women's magazine" level. We don't need more "easy" solutions, we need people to understand and listen. I'm sick of people trying to control my emotions and trying to push me into areas that aren't suitable.

It's cruel and adds insult to injury.

I'm sorry FS, that I can't recommend a good therapist. I saw one at the Hammersmith who I'd like to see tarred and feathered. The one at the ARGC was OK but I couldn't afford to keep seeing her and we didn't get to any crunch moments. By crunch moments I mean those situations that would show if she was actually any good.

There seems to be nothing for woman on this thread. The weekend courses and other organised self-help groups I've seen aren't my cup of tea and would do more harm than good.


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## Francie

FS, I've just seen this post about your therapist.  This "have you thought about adoption?" is the comment I find most irritating.  I'm always tempted to reply "Do you know through 6 years of ttc, 3 lost pregnancies and 30 grand of failed treatment, adoption never even occurred to us.  Thanks for the idea!". Off course we've all thought about adoption! But why can't people understand that adoption is not a substitute for having your own child. It is a different thing altogether which needs to be carefully considered and is quite definitely not for everyone.  There is not a linear progression from ttc naturally, then ttc with treatment, then moving on to adoption when treatment fails.  And they do not automatically hand out vulnerable children as consolation prizes to those of us that can't get pregnant.  There is, quite rightly, a long and rigorous screening process that puts the needs of the child first. 

This story explains exactly why I have been so resistant to therapy or counselling for this issue (aside from the fact that having already paid 30k to doctors I feel have exploited and humilated me, I am reluctant to part with yet more money for a "professional" to "help" me).  A careless or ill thought out word from someone we are trusting to help us with their professional skills hurts so much. In this case her follow up comment was also hurtful.  How dare she suggest that you are opposed to envisaging a future. I would suggest you stop seeing this woman and ask for a recommendation from someone else. Maybe do a separate post on the moving on thread? 

I'm sorry you've been through this.

Flopsy, I'm sorry you too had a bad experience.

Jen and Riley, hello to you both. And to all the rest of you on this thread. 

xxxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE

FS- sorry ... really sorry.  Understand every word as I didn't get far with counselling either.  The only thing that helped was getting it off my chest i/o bothering my so-called friends....

My therapist, who is childless by choice and an elderly woman, was totally getting it wrong.  She was even planting this little emotional bombshells at the end of sessions suggesting that maybe it's best that I didn't have a child with my DH.  OK we were having various problems bcs of the treatments and the relationship was under some strain, but to suggest that it's perhaps for the best that I didn't have a child  was more than outrageous.  This is not even about dh.  It's about me not being able to have a child that I desperately want and would be happy to have with or without dh.  

I think frankly that this is so very isolating experience and that if people haven't experienced infertility themselves and also trained as therapists/counsellor they are simply crap.  

The other person I saw was a counsellor and she was OKish in terms of empathy.  She understood the bereavment side better, but was not helping me to sort things out with my dh, which were infertility related.  Last time I saw her she told me 'I hope you guys sort it out. '  Well, I wasn't paying her all that money for a little pat on the back'.  

So at that point i stopped and gave up.  I tried to help myself as much as I could by distracting myself with other things.  It feels like I am on a treadmill and can't get off it and I feel really exhausted.  So desperately needing some respite...

And yes... on the adoption thing.  I don't want to adopt.  Why do people feel free to enforce this idea on me I don't know.  Even some ff people... Whilst it may be for them, it's not for everybody.  The same thing goes for donor egg.  NOthing can replace what we have lost.  But I don't see why I have to explain myself why donor is more acceptable than adoption .  I don't see why other people feel free to impose their opinions on me ... especially when I dont' ask them for one.

I would suggest you contact British INfertility Association re counsellors/therapists. They should have smb who is specialist.  I can't afford this at the mo, but would love to do it with smb properly trained who is not aggravating my already difficult situation with their ignorance and a total lack of empathy and understanding.  I don't need to deal with anybody's little ego at the mo....

Sorry for a rant...

Love to you all....


----------



## irisheyes

I have been wondering why there are not as many new posts on the main board -now I know why. You are all on this thread!!!! May i join you- I dont get on as much as I used to. When I am free in school now there is always someone in my classroom and the main computer room is a bit public.

I have been interested in the comments on counselling as I almost made an appointment last week for the first time. I was going to try it 3 years ago when my iuis failed but took extended time off work which helped a bit and didnt go. Itried acupuncture as well.

However as i said in my last post I turned 38 a few weeks ago and we were having a party for my youngest sister who turned 30. The other sister was coming up for it (she is only 13 mths younger than me) and married just over 2 years. She told me when we were all away in France this summer that they were ttc.She isnt overly maternal and was very understanding of my issues when I discussed them with her,but I am guessing that her dh wants a child. I had myself totally convinced that she was coming up to tell me she was pg and I totally fell apart!!! turns out she isnt (or at least doesnt know she is as was drinking vodka!) but i have realised that I am going to be heartbroken when she finally tells me. Then I have the other sister (married just over a year) and then sil!!!

I think I will need a coping strategy and was going to book a private session with a counsellor who specialises in training you to re-train negative thoughts (cant rem the name) but then thought might go thru the gp- I see tho that others dont rate counsellors thru the gp as they are very generalised.I still dont know wot to do. Dh and I have other issues ongoing with his dd (older members of this board will know the issues) and they are hard to deal with too.A friend felt I should look into ivf again- dh wasnt keen the first time and I am not sure I could go thru it all again. 

I am with you all on the crap responses smug pg people say etc. I will post again now I Know where you are- sorry for the ME post in advance.


----------



## FS

Flopsy - thanks for your message.  You know, one of the things that I found unsatisfactory about so-called 'therapy' was the fact that therapists never say anything emotional or give opinions, or appear to be on anyone's side.  It really is necessary to have someone say, "oh that's so terrible and unfair", or "they behaved outrageously and it's unacceptable", or "so and so was being a real b'dard" - someone who's sharing your outrage is someone who's empathising.  Therapists never do that.  I felt very supported by your exclamation about 'bl..dy cr.p therapists'.  So thank you!

Inc, thanks for your advice.  I did contact the BIA, but they don't deal in therapists, just counsellors.  And my experience of counsellors has been even less satisfactory than that with therapy. (would be interested to hear how the DE stuff is going - pm me if you have anything to report).

And Francie, thank you for your support and the way you say all the right things with such passion.  It's really empowering.  As it happens, I did sack the therapist.  I wrote her an email explaining why I didn't see any point in continuing with the sessions.  I didn't EXPECT her to reply, but I kind of hoped she would - I didn't want anything detailed, just some acknowledgement that I might have had a point, or that perhaps she was sorry she couldn't help me.  Or even just a polite, ok then goodbye.  But I'm not surprised she didn't.  You pay therapists to do a job, you're their income, and once the meal ticket's gone they're under no obligations.  I don't kid myself that my therapist actually CARED about me.  A good job that I don't really care.  Stupid old therapists - never put store by that stuff in the first place.

Irisheyes - have just been called out to an emergency coffee meeting!  Will resume on some of the things you said later!

FS


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## Flopsy

Irisheyes,

The brand of counselling you mentioned could be called "CBT". In this you will be encouraged to examine your "negative thoughts" and replace them with new "positive thoughts". I studied CBT years ago as part of a psychology course.

I've not found CBT very good and it's not something I would contemplate for infertility issues. We are all different though and this may be just the thing you need so please don't let me put you off! 

The problem I find with CBT is that it depends on the therapist to determine what thoughts/beliefs are good and bad. If the therapist doesn't have a good social grounding or is not an intelligent individual with a knowledge of how the world is, then this could result in quite appropriate emotions being labelled as bad. Therefore emotions that upset other people (and remember they are the ones with the problem) could be worked on to suppress them.

However, this will depend on the therapist and it's a tool that can be powerful if used correctly.

What I have discovered since the awful series of IVF failures is that I am hurt, angry and frustrated. This was too painful to bear for a long time but now it feels the most appropriate and energising way to be. 

After we stopped IVF I really though that I would "move on" and that emotionally I would come to terms with it. What I didn't know is that for me "coming to terms with it" would mean coming to terms with being "bitter and twisted".

I tried so many things but for me, they didn't work because they didn't fit my general life "style" and there were merely displacement activities that didn't heal the hurt inside. My mental health was being affected by the lack of real support given to infertile women by friends, family and society in general and that the recommended ways that we are supposed to "move on and get over it".

I was never going to be one of those women who reacts to a pregnancy story in an unruffled way and can remain calm & dignified.

I remember women on threads here on FF getting to the point where they could control there emotions about others pregnancy and children, and actually post here about feeling little or reacting calmly, as if it was a good thing.  It may be a good thing for them but it was never a path suitable for me to emulate or aspire to. 

I've given up trying to be that woman and I'm fine with that. Other people need to be sensitive to my feelings and if they flaunt the pregnancy stuff around me then they can watch out. 

Anyway, this is just me and we all have different coping styles. The women in the above example found their own style and good on them. 

I'm grateful to this thread for giving the space to say "unspeakable" things without some stupid, ideas being thrown at me for how I should change and "feel better".


----------



## irisheyes

Thanks Flopsy- It is CBT you are right. I really dont know what to do. Like you I dont think I will ever be able to react well to someone elses pregnancy. But how do you stop yourself from falling into the abyss of depression again? Should I just go on an anti depressant and hope that it works.

Dh and I talked yesterday as he is also very down at the moment (due to more awful daughter issues ) and wanting to leave his job. On top of this he just wants us to be the way we were when we first met. I have explained that I feel sad every day still and although was coping quite well the last 2 years the thought of my sisters telling me they are pg is really preying on my mind. He will be able to detach himself from these situations but i wont be. I finally told him that maybe sometimes I do resent the fact that he would not agree to ivf(moral issues) and that even if I dont want to try it now if he had just supported me and said "Yeah we will try it" then that would have been enough.

I dont know where we go from here. He just wants it to be me and him but i still have a yearning.


----------



## estraka

Hi Irisheyes,

I've went to see a Relate counsellor a few years ago (problems with DH partly IF related, luckilly all resolved some time ago now!) who was totally useless - as others have described as seems to be usual for consellors - insipid and passive.  Then I did find a wonderful consellor/psychotherapist who did actually express an opinion but without being judgemental.  Saw her several times and it really helped work through some issues when I was going through a really rubbish time (mind you at that point we were more focused on my disintegrating relationship at the time rather than IF).  I think it can be useful to see a counsellor - even one who isn't trained in IF issues, but finding the right one is a needle in a haystack.  I found it helpful because I needed to talk it all out and my friends and family were all too biased or bored with me!  The lady I saw helped me with some mechanisms for improving communications with my DH that really helped get us through the bad patch rather than split up.  Now we are strong together and I am so relieved we sorted it out.  I haven't gone back for further counselling on the IF aspect because I am not convinced there is anything that would help.  If I need to vent I pour it all out on this forum now as I know people will understand - or simply skip it if they don't!  There are no answers to IF - it is not like a counsellor can give you a baby.  But if IF is causing problems in your relationships with others (DH or family) then there might be ways that counselling could help in dealing with those feelings and 'coping' with them.  In that respect I had a positive experience - unfortunately the lady I saw wouldn't be much use to you unless you want to come to the Channel Islands for appointments! - and then of course everyone is different so someone I gelled with might not be your cup of tea anyway.  Not sure that CBT thing would be for me - if someone tried to tell me to turn IF into a positive thought then I'd probably want to punch them!  Still, you never know until you try it!

Not sure about anti-depressants as I was dead against taking them and found other ways to dull the pain, which in hindsight were worse than the anti-depressants would have been! I think most people on this forum have at least an inkling or more often a very personal relationship with the pit of depression so can completely understand what you are going through.  The only thing is - like counselling - what works for others might not work for you and those that are in the same place are equally desperate and clueless and any advice from those who have managed to claw their way out of the hole is at risk of sounding incredibly hollow and sometimes evangelical - like a recovering alcohol saying to a drunk about how much better their life is for having given up alcohol or a pg woman having gone through IF comparing their experience (with obvious positive outcome) with someone who is still barren.

So far, my best coping mechanism appears to be 'displacement' activities (great description Flopsy!) and my time frame for doing ok is very narrow - the old cliche of dealing with a day at a time.

No answers here, but I hope it helps you to know you are not alone in the feelings you have to work through.


----------



## latestarter

This thread caught my eye some time ago, but I have reached the point where there is no more denying it - this is exactly how I feel!  I must say that I have found it a relief to read other people openly expressing their anger & hurt at this situation, and making no apologies for it.

Flopsy, I found your post really rang true for me.  I am getting really fed up with trying to be accepting and trying to replace my so called 'negative' thoughts with 'healthy' & 'positive' ones.  Actually it makes me feel even less of a woman to be accepting and understanding of other people's pregnancy happiness.  I feel angry and agressive and if people cannot understand why I have the right to feel like this, then there is something wrong with them.

I have stopped saying that I am really happy for people who get pregnant.  It is a lie - I am not happy for them at all - I am obscenely jealous.  
Irisheyes, I can completely understand how worried you are about your sisters/SIL making announcements of pregnancy.  Last week I found out that my brother's girlfriend (whom I fell out with in August due to her complete insensitivity) is pregnant with her 2nd child.  The only thing I am glad of is that my brother told me over the phone.  Last time they waited until Christmas day to announce it to the whole family (knowing full well that both my sister & I were having fertility problems).  Since this was about the first Christmas I was able to look forward to (having lost both my lovely Mum and special Grandad at Christmas time a few years before) I have been furious with them ever since.
A/F was also late this month & I foolishly began to wonder if there might be some miraculous natural pregnancy.  Of course not!  Not only does A/F arrive 2 days after I hear my brothers news, but on the day it arrives I also hear that DH's sister is pregnant with her 1st child.  Neither of these pregnancies were planned - both couples were supposed to be getting married next year - I thought I would be safe at least until after the weddings!
I was going to try a TX in Turkey in November & now I just can't be bothered.  What is the point?  What is the chance of 3 pregnancies in my family at the same time?  I just feel that I have been cheated out of my chance.  

I have tried a couple of counsellors, but again, like so many of you have said - it does not help having someone sitting on the fence telling you 'everything you feel is normal' and 'you are allowed to feel this way'.  I know I am allowed to feel this way and I don't think I would care if I wasn't!  I have been cheated and DH has been cheated.  I don't feel like a proper woman and he feels useless as a man.  This is a totally unfair situation and having one sh***y thing happen to you after another just seems more likely than achieving the dream of me getting pregnant with our child.  I was an optimistic person before this started, but DH ended up in a wheelchair at 21 after getting a lift with the wrong person.  He learnt early on that life is c**p and now I am not going to apologise for being bitter when we keep getting dealt the worst hand, while everyone else is creating their happy families.

Thank you all for this thread, and the opportunity to acknowledge my bitterness!!

Irisheyes, the only thing I have found helpful in dealing with family pregnancy announcements is to spend more & more time with people who don't have children and are having really great lives.  My friends who have opted out of the 2.4 children lifestyle are such a comfort to me.  I absolutely love to hear about their travels, their new romances, their openness to experience.  It reminds me of life before TTC, which I know is still out there somewhere...


----------



## florie

Hi guys

I havent been on here for a while but it's great to see this topic is still going strong  

Jen, i just had to say i totally agree with you about Myleen Klass.....her baby is like a designer accessorie that she has popped out without changing her body shape   and the whole 'music for mummies' thing was just hysterical and SOOOO annoying!!!.....your post made me laugh out loud so thank you for putting a smile on my face 

Florie x x


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## FS

Irisheyes,
I think everyone's answered your therapy questions very well!  Flopsy's response made me laugh, sort of. Her reaction has been exactly the same as mine - I can't bear the thought of any therapist thinking they can brainwash me into thinking positive things about not having a baby. Pretty insulting.  Do they think that rubbish eggs = rubbish brain. Idiots.  But, like Estraka wisely said, everyone has different reactions to these things, and everyone has different needs.  Although I personally can't see that any form of therapy could assist with the grief of IF, it does sound as if there are other issues going on in your life/relationship, and I suppose a counsellor/therapist could try to help with these.  These 'moral' issues that your partner has with IVF - I presume you do not share them, and this must be very difficult for you to bear.  I hope he is not blind to the 'moral' issue of your happiness, and indeed your rights as a woman.  In any case, I hope you are able to get some professional and/or emotional support from those around you.

Latestarter. 
Oh you are right to be angry with your family's insensitivity.  We had a similar family pregnancy announcement, and no-one bothered to say something like, 'we know this must be difficult for you', or 'we are overjoyed with our pregnancy, but very sad that you must be feeling s.it about not being able to make a similar announcement'.  Or any variation on such a theme.  Instead, people treat us like we should be gushing with our congratulations and keeping our heartbreak firmly under wraps.  Mother-in-law has avoided any contact with us for the past 2 months (ie since the announcement), and when she finally phoned to wish me a perfunctory duty-bound 'happy birthday' some days ago, she didn't even mention the fact that her other son is going to have a baby.  She has no idea how to give genuine support and affection to my husband or I.  It's like talking to a cold fish or feline creature (maybe I'll call her catfish from now on - brilliant!).  Funny how people like that get to be mothers, and people like husband and I have so much love to give, but no children to give it to.  Anyway, why don't YOU get back to planning your own future?  I know the uncaring family stuff really hurts, but don't let this throw an evil spanner into your IVF psyche.  If you still have hope (and, let's face it, 38 is getting there, but it's really NOT too old at all), then get on down to the best clinic you can find (ARGC?) and give yourself another chance!  S.d the lot of 'em.  Only give up on your IVF if you don't want to do it, NOT because your rubbish family have brought your spirits down!  

love,
FS


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## INCONCEIVABLE

ARGC is actually not a good clinic for poor responders - (I had 3 eggs on full stimms, which so wasn't worth it considering teh daily bloods ).  LIster is superior in this respect.  
Latestarter - you considered donor eggs at any point?  

FS - how are you doing?  I have no news re donor eggs. DH not too keen to try again and having major dilemmas ... again ie. too old, and etc.  I would definitely give it another go if he is willing. Credit crunch is more of a worry for me.  If not we may not stay together as I don't want to be childless.  

Hello to everybody else.  It's been v. useful reading about coping mechanisms as I also think that therapy is a bit of a waste of money.  I also find displacement activities useful, but its v. difficult to get myself motivated, but I do feel better once I get going.  
Lots of love and hugs


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## latestarter

Thanks, girls

FS, I'm sorry about your family's insensitivity as well.  It is strange - I sometimes feel that family members think they are doing us a favour by reproducing & that we should somehow be really grateful.  And then, because we can't gush and coo and get excited by a pregnant relative, we have something wrong with us & are best left alone.  

My sister is fantastic & I would actually be overjoyed if she got pregnant again (she has a 5 year old daughter & has been trying the same amount of time as me).  She had a rubbish 1st pregnancy as my Mum was diagnosed with leukaemia a couple of weeks after my sister found out she was expecting, and my Mum only lived a couple of months after that.  My sister, however, seems to be the only person who can talk to me normally about how I feel and not feel that it is a taboo subject or that I should be happy for everyone else.

I do understand that both my Dad & my brother are uncomfortable with my infertility, but I sometimes feel that I am not part of their happy family anymore because I just don't fit.  It seems as if some families lose the ability to be interested in each other during child rearing years unless you happen to be doing the child rearing.  

FS, I am sorry that you too seem to be experiencing this phenomenon as well!

Incy,  I have had 2 cycles at the Lister now - they are good but they didn't get me pregnant!  I am considering DE, and have been in touch with reprofit, but I will try again at Jinemed first with my own eggs.  Do you think your DH will agree for another go with DE?

Lots of love & thanks to people who understand xxx


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## estraka

Hi all,

latestarter - welcome to this thread! And to Jen and Riley as I hadn't said that before.  And welcome back to Florie!
Please vent away as it adds new fire to the thread and keeps us all going!

Inc - I found your opinion on ARGC interesting; I only had one measley egg (and low quality apparently) through max drugs at Bourn Hall so three would be a definite step up!  I am looking at both ARGC and Lister for another attempt as I have read that these two are the best for poor responders.  I've attempted to get some free initial advice and have sent them both an email with some details of our previous treatment and asking them what sort of protocol/treatment they would suggest - on the basis that I need to make a decision between them and cannot get over from Guernsey for initial appointments or open days.  I'm not convinced that generating a bit of competition for my custom is going to work as they are hardly desperate for work (so many couples in the same sorry situation!) and we are probably not looking too hot a possibility for maintaining stats etc., but I thought it might be worth a try anyway!  Even if they just send me a polite invite to an appointment I have to pay for, then the tone of the response might give me something to go on to choose between them!  I sent my emails last night and no response as yet.  I am not keen on the sound of ARGC intensive daily stabbing and prodding (FS has told me similar of her experience there) but there is an attraction in getting it over and done with rather than flying back and forth.  There is the chance of having scans and bloods etc done here but I've lost all faith in the local consultancy group so would rather have all that done at the UK clinic as well.  Any advice from all of your experiences of ARGC and Lister (or other clinic suggestions) that might help me would be welcomed!  Latestarter, what are reprofit and Jinemed you mention? any good for poor responders?

I have been forming my letter of complaint about the local set up in the back of my head for a while now - I feel so let down by our treatment and angry at myself for not having been more forceful before.  Going through this leaves you so vulnerable though and I don't think I've been thinking straight for some years now so I have, completely out of character, gone meekly along with some really rubbish advice and service.  It is only in hindsight that I have realised how shabby it has been and I am probably going to shake things up a bit.     Not quite a diversion tactic as it is still on the subject of IF but is a move back towards the old me before I turned into a jibbering wreck at the mercy of insensitive and sometimes incompetent medical professionals!

Bring it on!

Whilst I'm in a fighting mood: if anyone ever meets Myleen Klass or Brangelina or anyone who professes to be a mumpreneur or yummy mummy, make sure you kick them in the shins from all on this thread! 

Love to all. x


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## INCONCEIVABLE

Estraka - just checked your age and I think it's worth trying .  ARGC cycle will cost you around 10k.  Lister around 6.5 k or 7 depending on the drugs.  For that kind of money you can have a nice hols in Turkey + treatment.  I think it totals about 5k.  Check Miranda7 - she was a poor responder and succeeded there.  Had one egg I think at the Lister and 4 in Turkey.  She was v. happy with the service she got.  They have a considerable experience with poor responders.  Aslo LauraB - got triplets made in Turkey.  

Stepan at the Reprofit is lovely and the clinic v. good.  I wish I had sth like that in the UK.  There is no wl with own eggs. The treatment with own eggs was only €1000 a year ago admittedly + drugs.  

I think ARGC may take months if your fsh doesn't play ball and that's is a waste of time in my opinion as fsh is not the only indicator. AMH being a far better one.    If you had that kind of response you will just waste your money there.  If you are trying in the UK, I would recommend Lister as there is v. good feedback and they work with your body from what I hear. They are also cheaper.  

You can certainly afford to try more than once i/o having one expensive cycle here.  You can do bloods and scans in the UK and then go there from day 7 for a wk. 

Go for it.  I was beaten by age, but you 're far too young to give up!  

Good luck!


----------



## Han72

Hi

just wanted to say THANK YOU for this thread. I've been in bits all day after yet another well-meaning rellie (my aunt) has attempted to sit me down and explain everything that I've been doing wrong during my fertility journey, including the "what about adoption" question and a suggestion of helping her out in her position as a teacher as a displacement activity (FFS!). This auntie, by the way, has 2 beautiful grown up daughters and spent some time describing how difficult the birth of the 2nd one was and telling me how she'd never really bonded with her... nice to know, and that helps me how, exactly?  She said that I should "be careful" that I don't end up depressed (sorry love, bit late for that) and that I should view being childless in a foreign country, miles from friends and family as a "window", I said, "Window for what? To jump out of?" she says "no, of opportunity..."

Oh please, just shoot me now...

I've never been a person to sit back and take things but I don't think I've ever been as angry with so little outlet for that anger, for so long as since this whole if thing kicked off.  And then to be treated like some self indulgent spoiled brat by my nearest and dearest is just the icing on the cake.  

By the way I'm at the ARGC and have been branded a poor responder here in France although I don't think I am actually...  And I chose them because they're the best. I don't want tons of eggs, just the one which will get me preg and I think that monitoring is what makes the difference with them and is why the results are so good!  Anyway, just about to have what is likely to be my last go (provided repeat immunes results ok) cos I really don't think I can do this anymore, it is killing me slowly. 

Love to all my b&t sistahs and a massive kick in the shins to Mylene and all those other smug cows!

xxx


----------



## Flopsy

Just a reminder that this is a thread for ladies who have finished treatment or thnk that they have finished treatment.

I don't mean any disrespect to the ladies here who are still trying and I apologise for bringing this up and also for any hurt I will cause for saying this.

Love to all regardless of where they are on this horrible journey.


----------



## INCONCEIVABLE

I think it's also useful to people who are in transition, as it were, the transition being  probably the most painful place to be from my experience.  Now I am grieving the fact that I won't have bio kids.  But back then there was hope laced with a deep despair at a slow realisation that it's not going to happen for me.  That is the most painful thing I have ever experienced tbh.  

All the best to all


----------



## estraka

I quote below something I posted on another thread - seems I've just been told to go elsewhere!! you are right to suppose that I am hurt by you saying that Flopsy and no I won't accept your apology for saying so. I will however apologise to you and anyone else on this thread who I may have hurt by voicing, probably foolish, hope that I might not have reached the end of the IVF journey after all. When I started posting on this thread it was off the back of the Bourn consultant telling us that we had negligible chance and implying that we had reached the end of the road so I didn't feel a fraud for posting. It is actually support and great advice from others on this thread that has made me think that prognosis might have been too negative.

The fact is, as the article referred to in the below quote states - hope in this game is pretty foolish with a 70% failure rate across the board - let alone when you can barely produce one good egg and your husband has defective sperm. I do regard myself as being very much in 'transition' - nursing a cruel hope that is probably going to get crushed. Yes it is hurtful to be told that I am not welcome here until all hope has gone. Especially since it has been the people on this thread that have given me so much support and made me feel hopeful for my future even if I do have another go and even if that doesn't work.

Thanks Inc for your message. x



estraka said:


> Thanks for posting that article Tamsin, it was interesting. About time there was more coverage of IF and the facts - it is not just the couples that are deluded into thinking they are bound to be the lucky ones, this is a perception of pretty much anyone I come across and friends and family tend to be overly optimistic and as such are limited in their ability to support when it goes wrong. IVF tends to be regarded a bit too flippantly as a sure answer to the couple's prayers and if couples are not blindly positive about the potential outcome they are regarded as having been in some way personally responsible for their failure, as if they would have had a baby if only they had had a better attitude.
> 
> I think it is right that finding a new sense of purpose is the best way to survive, but easier said than done.
> 
> Larkles - don't worry about not being yet at the stage where you have exhausted all options - you can still find a home on this forum. There are plenty, like me, on "moving on - deciding and accepting" that are still in the deciding stage and perhaps leaning back towards another go. This part of the forum is for those whose chances of conceiving are severely reduced and I guess the idea is that we do move on in some way eventually - by some miracle get pg or decide to adopt or accept IF and find a new sense of purpose in life, as the article suggests. Personally I am not ready for accepting and I haven't found many on here that are - or they have moved on and accepted as much as you can with this kind of personal trauma but still find comfort here. I think this forum provides some support no matter what stage you are at. Perhaps I am wrong about how it was originally intended but nobody has told me to go elsewhere yet!!
> 
> I think most of us have been there in waiting for af and hoping against hope. I wish you a miracle, although I personally wouldn't be able to give any credit to the psychic for it if it did happen!
> 
> Take care.
> est.


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## INCONCEIVABLE

Go for it Estraka until you feel you can take no longer. Then you will know what's the best way forward for you.    .  And feel welcome here.  No need to exclude anybody.  Pain from if is exclusion enough.!!!!  

Just do everything you can. Acupuncture, diet, reflexology, foreign clinics... anything.... Once you have done it all and if you don't succeed then there are other options....  Don't give up to despair, though....  

You are only 32 and you can do it...  Just go for it....  Focus on yourself, love yourself and your body... and trust that at your age it can still give you a baby....  

I have tried Create, but didn't have good experience... Some people have.  In all honesty, the two foreign clinics I mentioned may be a better bet as they are totally customer focused and v. kind from experience and correspondence. Stepan answers all questions within 24 hrs.  You will have a pleasant surprise. Also I found that I had far less pressure when I went to REprofit than any treatments that I had in the UK>    GO, go, go for it girl and I wish you the best of LUCK!!!!        .       

I don't see why smb can't benefit from my crap experience in the UK!!!!


----------



## Han72

Flopsy said:


> Just a reminder that this is a thread for ladies who have finished treatment or thnk that they have finished treatment.
> 
> I don't mean any disrespect to the ladies here who are still trying and I apologise for bringing this up and also for any hurt I will cause for saying this.
> 
> Love to all regardless of where they are on this horrible journey.


What?!  Flopsy, it's not just people who've 100% decided to give up who feel bitter and twisted and I can identify with so much of what has been said here and (God forgive me) I'm beginning to get really irritated with the cycle buddies threads because I can't deal with the posts from all the naive newbies all so excited cos they've just had their first jab and asking if it's ok to drink a cup of coffee and having competitions to see who's popping the most supplements....

I can't infect them with my negativity. It'd be like kicking a puppy! But here you are, telling me I can't post here cos I'm still in that no-mans land where after 5 failures it's pretty likely it ain't gonna happen but I have to carry on with the masochicm and **** all our savings up the wall and give it one last go because I'm stubborn as hell.

I hesitated to post here in the first place because I _know _ I haven't moved on yet. Having a family has been my dream ever since I can remember, everything else I've done, Uni, bloody stressful jobs with the crazy hours, wanting DH to get his sh1t together and sort out his issues with his mum, moving to France, pushing to buy a house asap instead of living in a flat in a building that seems to have more than it's fair share of care in the community candidates.... - it's ALL been because I wanted the best for my KIDS when they came along. So even if it comes to that point where we have to say "no more", I will obviously _have _ to move on but I don't think I'll _ever _ accept it. I haven't got a bloody clue how the hell I'm going to do that. How can I accept the unacceptable?

But I posted anyway because so many of the posts rang true for me and that's why I'm so gutted to get such a response from a fellow FF-er. This is the bit that _really _ riles me -



Flopsy said:


> I apologise for ... any hurt I *will * cause for saying this.


You mean you _knew _ what you were posting would be hurtful but you went ahead and posted it anyway?!  How is that different from the complaints we've all been making about the way others treat us? At least in their cases it can be explained cos they don't realise how sensitive we are. But that's not the case here is it? EVERYBODY on here knows how it feels to be told that their feelings are inappropriate or that the person they're trying to share with just doesn't want to know. I just never expected to find that here.

So I take my hat off to anyone who feels justified telling us suckers who are still banging our heads against the wall of tx that we're not welcome here. Seriously, in the bitter and twisted stakes, that wins hands down, cos that's some _real _ bitterness right there, I can't compete with that. Quite obviously everyone else on here already has their b&t credentials, I'll just slope off and suffer some more until I qualify too shall I?


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## Happiness07

Hi I agree with Nixf01,
No one really has the monopoly on hurt/anguish/bitterness and to be told that this is a thread only for those who've finished their treatments is dogmatic and insensitive. For all of us who feel desperate, alone and in a terrible place , FF is a sanctuary and actually this thread offers solace to those who are still struggling with IF (whatever the path that we decide to take from here and whatever the outcome of this journey) . We should all be coming together since this IF is already splitting us apart as human beings. Sorry I do feel strongly about this ! I regularly go onto the over 40s thread and there's a 20 something lady who also posts there for particular reasons and that's cool - she obviously has an affinity ( can't remember if she's undergoing an early menopause ) but she finds solace there and the other ladies don't judge her because they accept that her issue is not age but other factors.
Rant over ! 
Sukh X


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## Myownangel

Hold on a mo folks! I think in fairness Flopsy was responding to the fact that this thread had started to get into the ins and outs of tx and clinics etc. This board isn't really about that and I think that some women here who really have reached the end of the line might be upset by reminders of this terrible time. I know it is traumatic for anyone going through it - and I do know what it is like to reach the end and then something (I don't know what) makes you go for one last try even though you know the odds are against it. I have been there all right. I know that ambivalence very well. But let's not round on Flopsy, who has always been a great support to ladies on these boards. 
The 'Moving On' thread occupies a small corner of this large support site. There are other boards set up for talking about tx and getting support. I agree with Sukh that this board is indeed set up for emotional support - I think it is the clinical talk about tx that may be upsetting some of us. 
Bernie xxx


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## Han72

Myownangel said:


> I think it is the clinical talk about tx that may be upsetting some of us.
> Bernie xxx


Yes and I can understand that, so perhaps it would have been better to simply say please don't discuss tx on this board rather than baldly telling people that this board isn't for them.

It is perfectly reasonable to ask people to modify the content of their posts to make sure it is appropriate for the thread, (is that what you meant to do Flopsy?). But, with all due respect, I don't feel that it is acceptable for anyone to dictate to people _where _ they may or may not post. There's a big difference and I think it totally goes against the grain of what this site is all about!


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## INCONCEIVABLE

Honestly guys, *Nobody* has got a monopoly on grief! It's a bit like saying to a partially sighted person that they are not welcome to a place which is for blind people only and that they should wait until they are totally blind . In the meantime go and find another place.

*We are all hurt that is a common denominator. * So no point in upsetting each other then when there are plenty of people out there who do it on a regular basis.  

Let's just support each other.   We are all here bcs the place is useful to vent our feelings, so let's do that !


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## FS

When I logged on today I was so very sad to see what's been happening here.  PLEASE can we stop competing about whose grief is worse than whose?!  We are all sad, and B&T was supposed to be a place where all of us could seek refuge and compassion, and vent about people who didn't understand (ie, people who have not had IF problems and who say inconsiderate things to us).  I have no desire to shun a single person that has contributed to this thread, and I hope we can agree with Inc's last post and get on with supporting each other.  The only things that should be chased off this thread are unkindness and mean-spiritedness.  Estraka, you have made some of the most comforting and wise contributions to this thread, so please don't go away.  Flopsy, so have you, so please don't go away either, but please re-consider the rigidity of your initial statement (just because a person hasn't 100% accepted defeat doesn't mean they're not in that dark place where 'moving on' lurks at every corner).  Flopsy, I really hope you don't feel victimised by all these posts - being cast out is the last thing that any of us needs.  And all you others, including some out-of-the blue newcomers (Nix, Happiness), I am horrified that what you have just witnessed might have led you to interpret B&T as a place where horrid people go to peck each other's eyes out! I do, however, agree with your points of view on this one.  It would be nice if you stayed to carry on contributing.

FS


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## Han72

Hi again

thanks to everyone who's been so welcoming and Flopsy I really hope you're not going to stop posting on here because of anything I've said.  You DID have a valid point, I just took issue with the way you expressed it and I do sincerely apologise if I misinterpreted what you meant.


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## estraka

Exactly so - I apologise to you Flopsy for the strength of my initial reaction - as you can tell I was feeling very hurt, but on reflection I think the others are right that you probably were only objecting to tx talk and I understand and take the point - that was insensitive of me and I will have a scout around and start a new thread for that elsewhere.  Is there a section of this site that deals with nearly-no-hope-but-still-deciding-whether-or-not-to-flog-a-possibly-dead-horse-rs?    

Flopsy - I hope you haven't been upset by mine and others' reactions to your comment; it only proves just how great this part of the forum has been and the people on it, including you of course, in providing support that I was simply devastated at the implication that I couldn't get emotional support here.

Deep breaths all round!  I hope we have re-established equilibrium and mutual understanding and can assume us partially sighted folks are still welcome as long as we don't go on about possible treatment, which is completely fair and reasonable.  

Flopsy - I hope you are ok?

So, putting this all behind us hopefully,

Welcome nix and happiness!

Nix - I loved your jumping out the window comment!  fantastic!  

Lots of love to all.


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## Flopsy

We added this disclaimer to the thread because of the postings from people who were still carrying on their journey

  'Moving on' - Deciding and Accepting (Moderator: emcee)
This board is for those for whom there are no longer any available options regarding successfully achieving a birth child of their own, or for those whom the chance of this happening is very slim. This board is usually frequented by the involuntary childless and as such there may be some topics on here that could inadvertently cause offence to others who have been able to go on and have their families or whom are still pursuing their quest to become parents. Please take this into consideration when 

If people posting here who feel that they meet these criteria that's fine with me. However, this criteria does exist and it was specifically written by insensitive comments made to women on this thread before. 

For women to argue that they have the "right" post anywhere is absurd. I am hardly likely to post to some special interest threads here as I have respect for the people there. We discussed on this group before about taking this section off the main board exactly to get around this problem.

What I don't want to see are posts regarding treatment from people still undergoing treatment. There must be a place where people who have finished treatment unsuccessfully can meet and talk. 

I don't think that what I said was unreasonable. Women who are still having treatment can discuss that on so many other boards.

Women who have had to give up have few places to discuss this.  I am very hurt over remarks and I do think that it is odd that no one has pointed out that we keep having this type of problem and that the disclaimer was written for this reason. I am also rather gobsmacked that I might feel that this is not a place for me to post or to continue posting. Was that because I didn't reply back or ague with anyone? 

What I will do in the future is ask the Moderator to step in and handle this problem. We may need to get the disclaimer written or simiilar. 

I'm not going to single people out or argue any longer.  Please don't send me private messages.  If you have problems can I suggest that you contact the Moderator and we can discuss this all again and maybe come to another solution.


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## INCONCEIVABLE

All I will say is that nobody has got a monopoly on any of the boards either!  People should feel free to post where they like.  Most folks tend to be reasonably sensitive, because they have enough of insensitivity elsewhere.  Some of the stuff here is too strongly worded methinks!  

It would be sad if we needed the moderator to sort things out.  After all I would like to think we are a bit more grown up than a bunch of schoolkids who need 'a restorative justice'.


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## estraka

Again, sorry Flopsy if I caused offence and I can totally understand why discussion of treatment is inappropriate and this *will * be taken elsewhere. Just to make it clear however; I and others on this post do absolutely feel we fit that disclaimer criteria - "for whom the chances of this happening are very slim". I am not in any treatment cycle and haven't been for a while. If I am mad enough to go back for more then the chances of it working are apparently pretty shocking. If you don't want people like me posting AT ALL - i.e. about the emotional trauma of IF and reaching the end of the IVF road NOT about last ditch treatment efforts - then you are right that the disclaimer needs changing to take out the reference "for whom the chances of this happening are very slim" and put us no man's land people somewhere else on the forum.


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## estraka

I've started a thread on the "Inbetween treatment" board. I hope this helps. You should be able to follow the link below if you are interested in this discussion.
Thanks.



estraka said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm starting a new thread on this board with a disclaimer:
> *This thread is intended for people with very little chance of conceiving but who can't quite bring themselves to move on. It is for those who are deciding whether or not to have another go at IVF or who are going through what is likely to be their last chance at IVF, in order to have a safe haven to discuss treatment options. It is for those who have already been through it unsuccessfully so know the ropes but need some emotional support and advice for what might be their final attempt. This is for people who have probably already been on the 'Moving On - deciding and accepting' board but have decided, or are seriously thinking about, a step back to treatment.*


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## INCONCEIVABLE

It's sad guys.  I think 'b&t thread is big enough for us all!  It's not as if the treatment options were a constant topic.  It was a one off and I can't see where the harm is tbh.  

I am pretty much at the end of the road both own and donor eggs with dh refusing to have anymore treatment, so I see myself in the b&t camp.  

Let's just stop this whole silly discussion who can post and who can't and let's focus on support.


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## Debs

Ladies,

Im sorry to see that today has not been a particularly good one on this thread  

Admin are now in the process of reviewing the issues raised today and although a new thread has been started by estraka I will say for the moment i will leave it be - however it will form part of our review as to whether it stays.

Please ladies - things are difficult as they are - lets not add to it - lets just continue to support each other.

Love

Debs xxx


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## INCONCEIVABLE

Agree totally Debs!  

How is everybody today?


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Still feeling bitter and twisted!!! LOL


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## INCONCEIVABLE

That's the spirit!  Good on you!


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## Bratt




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## Han72

Now THAT'S funny! (Jeez, I need to get out more!)

This made me laugh too



estraka said:


> Is there a section of this site that deals with nearly-no-hope-but-still-deciding-whether-or-not-to-flog-a-possibly-dead-horse-rs?


Thanks Estraka for the new thread, thanks Inc and everyone else on here for letting us dead horse flogging types crash for a bit and sorry we started bunfight.  

I hope that we'll be able to begin a shared thread again, with the proviso (sticky, at the top of the board, in red flashing lights!) that chat related to current tx is off-limits and I offer my sincere apologies for crossing that line in the first place.

Love to ALL!
xxx


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## emcee

Hi everyone

Firstly, I apologise for not being around here much lately. I'll save the reason for that for another thread though.

In the meantime, I just want to say that I have read all of your postings and am saddened that emotions have been running high, but having been a user of this board for some time then the mod I realise that this space can be an emotive place, with many emotive subjects brought up, and people can be left feeling hurt and upset.

There has been talk before about making this board a seperate place, where only those who specifically requested to join would be able to sign up, I opposed this because I felt that this was a place someone could come to if they were at the stage where things had gone pear shaped with tx but where there was a safe space where they could lick their wounds so to speak before deciding to go in another direction.

We have had many ladies (and a few gents) who have indeed gone on to adopt, use donor egg/sperm/embryos or had another crack of the whip at a different type of tx - and been successful. We have also had others who for whatever reason have not gone on to do any of those things.

Such is the nature of this board, that when people are going through sh*tty things and feel they have nowhere to turn, feelings can and do run high - and sometimes things can get out of hand on here - it seems its the way it's been on here for a while, perhaps its to do with my style of moderation because I believe in letting people say what they have to say without subduing them - perhaps its because I am living the life without a family of my own and I know from personal experience the depth of emotion that can well up.

I thank you for your understanding of each other during this latest debate - and I understand that when we are hurting, we can shoot from the hip without necessarily realising the hurt we may unintentionally inflict. Hurt people hurt people.

I have fought very hard to make this a welcoming space for anyone who is going through the angst of not having a family, or being on their last legs of having a family. I appreciate that to have a sliver of hope is not always the gift it appears to be - I see too many people on here who have not been succesful in their quest to become parents. It's ok to feel bitter and twisted about the struggles we have all faced about not being parents - please let us not turn our sadness and anger on each other here - we are here to support each other, not fall out with each other. 

Love to all

Emcee x


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## Bratt

Hugs all round


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## ♥Tamsin♥

emcee said:


> It's ok to feel bitter and twisted about the struggles we have all faced about not being parents - please let us not turn our sadness and anger on each other here - we are here to support each other, not fall out with each other.
> 
> Emcee x


Here, Here!!!


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