# Moving On: 10 steps to healing the heartache and leading a rich, childfree life.



## helen6887

Hi Ladies,

I'm afraid I've often glanced through these threads during my treatments, but hoped against all hope, that I would ever need to join them.   Sadly after our latest, and last unsuccessful treatment my DH and I have come to the sad decision that it is now time to give up our dreams and plans of having children. Its been a few weeks since my last BFN and I've cried enough tears to fill a bucket. I'm seeing the IF counsellor at the hospital and it is helping, but I've also decided I have to help myself. I'm determined not to spend the rest of my life as a IF victim, I don't want to be this miserable, bitter, brittle, hard-faced woman that I feel I've become. I used to be a happy, easy-going woman, kind, generous and compassionate. Now I feel so angry and bitter at the unfairness of life. I hate seeing women pushing prams, and god-forbid if I come across a pregnant woman pushing her toddler in a pram. I just want to scream 'how dare you flaunt your fertility in my face, how dare you look so happy, when you hold in your arms everything I've always dreamed of'. No... I definately don't like the kind of person I've become.   
Anyway I'm determined to 'move on'. I've recently discovered this book by Linda Hunt Anton called 'Never to be a Mother'. It has a kind of 10-step recovery programme (bit like the AA) and whilst I'm not saying it's suitable for everyone, it might just help. If like me, you're still hurting and struggling to cope with the fact that it is highly unlikely that you will ever be a mother, then I'd be grateful if you'd contribute to this thread as I work my way through the 10 steps. I know there is a bright, beautiful future out there somewhere, I just can't imagine it at this moment in time, but I'm determined to get there. It's the least that we deserve.

So here goes.... STEP ONE: Acknowledging and Experiencing the Loss.

The author says that there is a temptation to skip through this step, because for many of us, it's just too painful to really sit down and think about what we have lost in accepting that we will never be mothers. I've had friends who even now after 14 years of unsuccessfully TTC will still say to me 'don't give up hope' and 'I know someone who conceived naturally as soon as she stopped the IVF treatment'. I know they are trying to comfort me, but it doesn't actually help. It gives me false hope and expectation. I can't move on, if I'm always thinking there ould be a chance.... couldn't there. I need to look myself straight in the face and say 'I will never be a mother'. There are many things I need to accept 'I will never do'. The book suggests I write a list of things that will never be, so I can truely experience the reality of what I feel I've lost. So here goes... 

I will never....

I will never again know the pure joy and elation of seeing the word 'pregnant' on a home pregnancy test.

I will never feel my baby moving inside me.

I will never get to decorate a nursery with baby borders, mobiles and cute fluffy toys.

I will never buy my first pair of cotton booties or ever kiss those baby toes before slipping them on.

I will never see my baby's eyes light up when I walk into the room or see her smile when I make silly faces and play 'peep-po'.

I will never buy rubber ducks or boats for bath-time.

I will never see her take her first steps or speak her first words.

I will never feel like I've made it into the exclusive 'mums club', as I proudly push my buggy round the park.

I will never hear the words 'I love you mummy' or feel her little arms around my neck.

I will never read bedtime stories and invent silly voices for the characters.

I will never watch her as she sleeps and wonder what she's dreaming.

I will never take my child to her first day at school, or stand by the school gates with the other mums at hometime.

I will never stick her badly drawn pictures and piainting on the fridge as if they are the works of a great renaissance artist.

I will never receive a 'mother's day' card, or have her bring me breakfast in bed, on this special day.

I will never have the opportunity to sit and help her with her homework.

I will never take her to the zoo, the park, the seaside, castles, stately homes and museums.

I will never make rice-crispy cakes with her, or plan craft-making activities for the school holidays.

I will never teach my child how to play 'Pooh-sticks' or watch her feed the ducks on the river.

I will never be asked for advice on school, boys, clothes and make-up.

I will never see her graduate, knowing that I was partly responsible for this beautiful, talented individual.

I will never watch my DH walking our precious child down the aisle on her wedding day. I will never see the love and pride in his eyes as he makes his 'father-of the-bride' speech.

I will never know what it feels like to be a grandmother or to give my own parents that joy.

I will never be a mother.....  

Well that's my list. MY loss. I'm sure yours would be similar. I'm glad I've written it, even though I'm crying as I write this. I know different people react differently to IF, but for me it has been one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. I'm looking forward to the day when I can look back at this time in my life with sadness (of course) but not with pain. Feel free to join in this thread with your own regrets and losses. If it's too painful join me later at STEP TWO.

Helen xxx


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## florie

Aww Helen that is really sad! Glad you found it helpful though! I think it does help to get things 'out' and write them down. Hope you're ok    

Florie x


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## Kazzz




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## owenl

Helen
I can relate to how you feel.  I had to accept at the end of May that I would never be a Mum after 2 failed attempts at IVF and then a 3rd successful IVF which ended in miscarriage at 9 weeks.  I was devastated and went through all the thoughts that you have listed below and many more worries like who is going to look after me when I'm older, who will be at my funeral and a few other morbid thoughts, but with counselling and reading many infertility books I am learning that there is life without children.  I am now trying not to think of the things I can't have, and concentrate on improving the things that I will be able to do.
I have read both Coping with Childlessness - Diane and Peter Houghton and
Sweet Grapes - How to Stop Being Infertile and Start Living Again - Jean W Carter & Michael Carter.  I can recommend both books to put things into perspective.
I honestly thought my life was over 3 weeks ago, now I am still sad, I fear my marriage won't survive this as it was already in trouble prior to starting tx and with no common interests any longer we both felt a child might bring us closer together and bring a spark to our marriage but now that hope has gone DH is struggling to communicate with me at all.
On a positive note I used to have 2 part-time jobs one which was permanent but working unsociable hours and the other fixed term contract until March 11 but a job I enjoy.  I was scared to leave the unsociable hour job as don't know what I will do if my fixed term job ends in March but I've decided to take the risk and handed in my notice in my permanent job in order to start having a social life again.  I have few friends, an even smaller family and if I am to survive this fate, I need to start doing something about that so I'm now joining social clubs and meeting new people to go out with evenings and weekends.  I've also started hill walking again - a hobby I enjoyed prior to taking on the unsociable job and prior to starting IVF.  Financially I am struggling but I need to do things that I enjoy before I wake up and realise I've missed the best years of my life.  I've a long way to go but I can now see a light at the end of the tunnel having been through the grieving process for the last month.  I hope you can begin to see the positives too.


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## helen6887

Owenl - thankyou for your reply. I'm so gald you're moving on with your life. I do remember sharing with you about our troubled relationships earlier. I'm the Helen that took up belly-dancing. Still not a pretty sight! Haha.
Keep me informed of your progress - I admire your bravery in speaking so frankly about the toll IF has had on your relationship with your DH. I'm sure many women an relate.

Helen xxx


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## owenl

Hi Helen
I remember now you gave me loads of support when I posted on here about how awful things were with my relationship!  To be honest that side of things isn't any better but your advice and the books I've read have made me concentrate on me and I'm now making myself go out more and make new friends and if DH wants our marriage to survive he is going to have to make the effort and show some motivation to organise things for us to do together and show more intimacy, if he doesn't we will split up, that I am now sure of as I don't want to continue being the one making all the effort any longer.  Strangely he is away camping with the boys this weekend and whilst it's the first weekend he's been away from me in over a year I can't say I'm missing him as when he's here it's such a stressful environment.  Hoping your DH and you can sort out your problems.  IF does have a large impact on marriages but if you can get back to where you were before IF you stand a fighting chance.  Unfortunately for me, on reflection our marriage had problems before IF and trying for a baby was a final attempt I felt to bring us closer together.  Now just working on getting a bacup ie network of friends of my own so that I can make sensible decisions about DH and my future later in the year when I'm happier in myself.  Would love to lose some weight but dieting and socialising don't really go together   so for the moment just trying to exercise more to make up for all the extra nights out I'm beginning to enjoy.


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## nbr1968

I am just sat here in tears - Helen your list was so poignant. And so close to home - I wish I could let go of the hope - i just have no idea how to "accept" and move on.Everything you wrote about being changed, from happy and easy going to bitter etc - is exactly how I feel - if I go out I feel ambushed by pg women/babies in prams/happy family groups etc - and I have no idea how to escape.

I think DH and I are strong - but since we both still have hope, maybe when that is gone (close now) i fear for what will happen then.

Thank you for being so frank and posting this - it has helped.

Nbr68xxx


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## helen6887

Nbr1968,

    thank you for your kind words and support. I can see from your stats you've had a really tough time. So sorry to see you lost your dear little one at 18 weeks, can't imagine what that must be like. I'm glad you haven't lost hope, it is sad to finally lose all hope, but funnily enough there's also a little relief - I don't have to try so hard any more, can't explain it, but I've had a few good days and I'm feeling more positive. I must say, one of the best things about being IF is discovering this website, and blogging with so many courageous women. I take my hat off to you.  

Helen xxx

Going to attempt to move on to step two at weekend.


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## Sunset

Hi Helen
I can so identify with your post - I was in tears reading it, and I can identify with so much of what you said.  
I try to count my blessings - loving friends and family, and a wonderful fiance - our wedding plans are underway!!  It's easier some days, more than others.  But I know we have a great life.  There are many things we can do that we possibly couldn't do if we had children.  I still have a yearning for children.  I don't think that will ever leave me.  My next step is possibly to be a little more open with friends.......its a difficult one.
Take care Sxo


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## jamaicababytrying

Hi Helen

Thank you for expressing what I am feeling! It has been a long road and the hardest thing for me is that my husband has a child from his previous marriage. I read your post and cried because we are going to be doing FET hopefully in July and this does not work I will probably have to face the reality of living a life without children   

I   that things will work out for us and everything will go right. I am just tired now. But to think as you said never to see a baby's smile when you walk through that door or teach them about school, boys/girls, and life in general. 

I want to heal as well, I want to be happy again i want to feel pretty and although my husband tells me all the time i don't feel it. The good thing is that my husband has been great through this process and I think we have gotten closer. I do   though that as time goes on we don't drift apart because of the void that we cannot fill.

Thanks for listening


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## nbr1968

Helen6887, thank you for your support too!  We just had the first anniversary of our loss and I wish I could say it gets easier but there are still dark dark days.

I think your post was a wonderful way of letting people come and express their own pain - unfortunately (fortunately?) we are a sad small group, and to find that there are others who feel the same way makes me feel less alone - I only wish I knew someone in person who is also going through this - all our friends have more than one child and they really don't understand the depth of our loss or the daily grief we feel for our son, but also all the other embies we have lost and the dreams that are slipping from our fingers.

Jamaica, Sunset   to you both! 

Good luck with opening up to friends Sunset - I tried to do this but people do find it difficult to know what to say/to do, so can sometimes react by almost ignoring what is going on.

Jamaica, good luck with the FET this month!

Take care, Helen, and thank you again for starting this post and being so honest and open - good luck with moving on to step 2 this weekend!   

Nbr68xx


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## Sunset

Hi
I'll second that - Helen good luck with step two this weekend.

Take care xoxo


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## brightspirit

Hi girls

  what a good idea to start this thread Helen and we all need to acknowledge our loss and pain and the deep ,deep grief of not bearing a child .I can honestly say a few years on the pain is so much less and the sorrow does fade.I have now become a godmother again and this has brought a lot of joy and life is full and busy and people do stop asking how many children you have after a while.

  So as they say on the tribal wives programme -walk your life -whatever path it takes you whether we have children or not there is still a place for all of us and you will find your family and friends need you more than you think and you will in turn be able to help others when you address your own pain good luck !!!


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## jamaicababytrying

Thanks nbr68.

I understand what you mean about knowing someone in person who can relate to what you are going through. All my friends and family have kids, even my husband has a child from a previous marriage! So it is quite hard especially when not even your husband can understand what you are going though.

I wish all you ladies happiness with or without children.

Helen good luck on step 2, I'd love to know how that goes.

Simone


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## beachgirl

Looking forward to reading step 2 Helen x


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies,

How are we all? Wow, I never expected when I started this post, I would see so many wonderful replies. It helps so much to know that other women feel exactly the same as I do - so great to know I'm not alone (although i wouldn't wish IF on any of you lovely ladies).

A big group  to Florie, Kazzz, Owenl (thanks so much for supportive emails), nbr1968(so touched by your story), Sunset (congrats on the up coming wedding), Jamaica (Simone), Beachgirl and Brightspirit (I loved your advice re: Tribal Wives 'walk your life' - spot on).

I did say I'd explore *step two* of this fab book I've picked up (Never to be a Mother by Linda Hunt Anton) but had a little relapse on Sunday and had to give myself a good talking to in order to pick myself up and 'move on'. So here goes.

*Step Two - Understanding The Loss.*

The author suggests that we dig deep and hard to answer the basic question of 'Why do I want a baby?' I know, it's easy to say 'duh! I just do!' But I think i know why she gets you to think about it. Yes many women like myself have this overwhelming biological drive to become mothers - but even I accept that as 'higher-order' animals there has to be more to it than a simple need to procreate.

I accepted long ago that most people's desire to have children is driven by their own selfish needs. Now before any of you ladies 'shoot me down', do what the author says and make a list of your reasons under the headings 'Psychological Reasons', 'Social Reasons' and 'Extistential Reasons  '. I promise it's not as heavy as it sounds. These are my reasons why I wanted a child so badly.

1. *Psychological Reasons* - when I look back at my life, if I'm honest, I have to accept that it is littered with failures. I was a very average kid at school, i had no real ambitions and have ended up working part-time in a dead end career (earning peanuts). I'm overweight, averagely attractive, in a marriage that is hanging by a thread, miles away from my own parents and my beautiful, talented twin sister. I have a few close friends, who are usually to busy with their kids to really understand what I've been going through. Added to this, the 14 years trying to have a baby, and you have before you 'the world's biggest loser'. Do I have low self-esteem? YEP! Do I have low confidence? YEP! Does it get me down? YEP! Was a baby going to fix it all in one fell swoop? You better believe it!  As a natural extension of myself - my beautiful, talented child was going to achieve everything that I had failed to achieve in my life. Does this all sound familiar? Does this all sound mad?

From a rational perspective, I know this reasoning is loopy. The good news is that a child doesn't cure low self-esteem. A child won't make me feel whole. And that's good, cos it means that I'll have to find another way to boost myself up. 

2. *Social Reasons* - Whether I'm out shopping, in the park, at work or just driving in my car - I look around and everywhere I see families. Mums and dads with their kids, it's like the whole of society is geared around being this perfect little family unit. And I don't fit in. I feel 'abnormal', 'a freak', 'a nonmother'. I don't think there's a place for me in society, I feel like an outsider, looking in.  Friends that I was at school and college with, have all grown up and moved on with their lives. Having children was part of the growing up phase, and I've missed out on that. In many ways I don't feel like I've really grown-up, I haven't developed as a human being.

Again, logically, I know that having children simply because society expects us to, isn't a good enough reason to have them. I can see that my view of society is warped by my own negative experiences. No one has ever told me I am 'abnormal' or a 'freak', so why do i think that I am? My own twin sister has a wonderful child-free life (she and her DH decided long ago that they didn't want children). They have good jobs, earn good money, they travel and do all sorts of exciting things ~ they really enjoy life!). Do I think they're weird or strange or abnormal? Of course not. So why do I apply those labels to myself. It's time I took a different viewpoint on society and perhaps ask myself why I feel this need to be 'just like everyone else'. what's wrong with being a bit different?

3. *Existential Reasons* - had to go and look up this one in dictionary (LOL  ). And yes I do have reasons for wanting a child that fit into this catergory. I don't like to admit it but in my darkest hours I have questioned 'what am I doing here?', if I can't be a mum, then 'what is the purpose of my being here?' You'll know if you've suffered with depression that there are occasions when you wonder if it wouldn't be better if you just disappeared - would anyone really notice? Would they care? I've been down that road in the past - and I'm determined not to go back.

Part of 'moving on' is accepting that I may not have been put on this earth to be a mum, but there has to be another purpose. And if I can't see what that purpose is, I'm going to do my best to make a purpose. I'm nearly 40, I've probably lived half my life already. I haven't achieved much, but it's not to late to make changes. I've a lot to offer this world, my parenting skills may not have been needed but there are other things I can do to make a difference.

Phew! Glad I've got all that off my chest. Hope I haven't bored you all silly. It does help writing it down, it makes me feel stronger.  
    for you all.

Helen xxx


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## beachgirl

Helen... that sure does make sense...it's pre programmed into us from being children that we should have a mummy roll....dolls...cooking..cleaning...all those childhood play roles that have been around for years...then when we can't/don't have children you start to realise that there is a bigger picture out there...hopethat makes sense


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## jamaicababytrying

Helen   Thank you again for bringing such truth to light! 

It was just the other day I thought to myself why do I want children, aside from the fact that I have always wanted children, dumb answer right. Well obviously you think women have kids, so i am a woman I must have kids. Then you think about it and you realize you love kids, you want to be responsible for raising a young mind! For bringing in a new generation, for contributing to the population. 

I totally get where you are coming from interms of being average and low self esteem. But believe or not I used to be so confident and independent and self reliant. Now I feel like i am in a dead end part-time job with no growth in sight. I am dependent on my husband for too many things. I have the need to have a child so that i have a purpose and to give him a child because he already has one, does that make sense? If the reasons are selfish then sorry. All my friends have kids, all my family have kids even the one friend i had left that was having trouble having kids now has a kid.

I feel the same way when you talk about the social and psychological and even the existential reasons. I gues as you said a part of moving on is realizing that perhaps my purpose is not to be a mother but unffortunately I ahave not reached that point. I still think I have a lot to share and to impart on a young mind. I   that I will get over this hurdle as I am unhappy   and it is making me out to  be a bitter "young" woman and I don't like it one bit.

Thanks for the insight Helen and you continue to read and impart knowledge. Perhaps your purpose is to write a book about your situation and help others get through it!

Take care
Simone


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## nbr1968

Hi Helen

I was really interested to read your last post - I often have thoughts about why I want to be a mother - I will definitely sit down with the three categories and write my thoughts - the trouble is that I am pretty angry all the time. 

Do you ever feel that nothing is right? I just feel that sometimes all I am doing is "compensating" for not being able to conceive and carry to term. i mean, fertile women don't have to work this hard do they?

Sorry, having a bad day today - very negative - I think it is because my AF is due soon.

I wish I had made the decision NOT to have children and just got on with my life - now I am in limbo land - I still don't feel ready to move on. But your thoughts and efforts to move on are inspiring and I will keep trying. Thank you for sharing your most personal thoughts - your honest reflections are so familiar to me. Especially the feelings of lack of achievement etc. I feel quite low and lacking in self esteem these day - and before IF I was not like that!

Keep going!

Nbrxxx


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## helen6887

nbr - ah big hug   coming at you sweetie. 

It's ok to have bad days. AND yes we all feel the anger hun. It's the unfairless of life that causes it. The world seems so bizarre, with teenage pregnancies, druggies and child abusers popping out kids like it's the easiest thing in the world. It's madness, isn't it  .

We know we'd make brilliant mums, god knows we've had enough time to work out what makes a brilliant mum. It's so unfair, of course we feel angry. The hard part is not letting it overcome us, until we turn into that bitter twisted, hard-faced woman that we promised we'd never become. 

nbr - you've been through the worst experience a woman can ever go through, and you've survived! Keep telling yourself that. You are not a victim (victims are weak and helpless, they have no control over what happens to them, and have no protection). You have faced adversity and come through it a stronger and wiser woman. You are a SURVIVOR!!    

I know it's not easy - but we can all get through this awful sad time in our lives together. There is a better future ahead for all of us.  

Helen xxx


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## Libran

Hi Helen
I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for starting this thread.  You write intelligently and accurately, and with great emotional insight.  You are most certainly not average in any sense.
I will second Nbr's comments and sit down with the 3 categories and try to write down my thoughts as to why I so desperately wish to be a mother.
Just wanted to add that I have been reading an article today in the August issue of Psychologies magazine.  The article is entitled "Does having children make you happy?".  The article highlights how many people "slide" into rather than decide upon becoming parents.  It also says that of all the three main components of adult life - employment, friendship and parenthood - raising children is the only one that does not promote personal well being.  Parents are, apparently, bogged down with the tedious chores that go hand in hand with raising children and the relatively new phenomenon of "helicopter parenting" (children being the centre of their parents entire life) means that parenting is now far more stressful than ever.  
OK, so before I get shot down in flames, I must point out that I don't agree with many things stated in the article.  However, given the child centred world that we live in and the massive social taboo about admitting that you would rather not have children, I thought it was fascinating that such an article was even published.  The bottom line is that however much the "helicopter parents" would like to live vicariously through their children, it is simply impossible for them to do so.  Ultimately, we must all find our own individual path through life, whether that path includes children or not.


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## Rowan22

Hi Helen,

This is an interesting thread. I can see where the author is coming from but I'd still argue that the end of the day we're talking about a basic biological drive. We're programmed to want children and Nature makes damn sure we're reminded of that every single month; our cycle, from beginning to end, is driven by hormones. Sometimes I feel a prisoner in a body that wants to breed but is now too old. (Not too old for the damn periods, though!)
I'd agree with many of the comments on this thread, particularly Libran's last one and I'd also agree that using children to give your life a meaning is probably unwise, after all, they do grow up and become independent. I read somewhere that most women my age are starting to face the 'empty nest syndrome' and wondering what on earth they're going to do now their children are leaving home. Needless to say, I don't have a lot of sympathy but I suppose for them it's a real issue. 
I'm afraid I'm probably already bitter and twisted, especially as infertility isn't the only health issue I'm having to deal with and yes, I have been diagnosed with depression. There are times when I see very little value in life at all. And yes, your comment about the teenagers, etc, gave me a grim smile. Still, they got it right and I got it wrong. They bred, as Nature wanted. I'd agree with your comments about feeling an alien, too. I sometimes joke that if women are from Venus and men from Mars, I must be from Jupiter or somewhere! I don't fit in anywhere, except in my work. 
In a sense, it's like asking people why they want sex. You just do; it's natural! All the same, I've been following this thread with interest and I'm just wondering whether the author has any solutions or any answer to the pain. I'm afraid I couldn't do step one, I spend too much time crying as it is. There's a sense in which you have to protect yourself to some extent in order to function at all.
Anyway, an interesting thread, Helen! Thanks for starting it.

Rowanxx


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## nbr1968

Dear helen

Sorry I have not been looking at replies recently so only just read yours!

Thanks you for your supportive words - I must admit that there are days I feel stronger than others - today is not one of those days! I think the main thing for me is the need to feel there is some purpose for my future life because I have spent the last 15 years trying to become a mother, and obviously failing.

I have tried to write down my thoughts of why I want to be a mother but I find that the three categories are getting amalgamated*, *because some of the reasons are psycholigicval and existential for example.

*These are just some of the reasons I have come up with;-

I want to be a mother because I have had so many life experiences that I want to share with my child; my insights, my skills, my love. I want the decisions that I made at age 25 (i.e not to have a child yet because we had only just got married, had no money, and wanted to be financially ready for the child) to NOW make sense, because right now I have so many regrets about that decision.

I want to feel "normal" - not "out of the norm" because I feel now that I have no place in THIS Society. Everywhere I look there are families that are growing together, advancing, changing. My life is static - unchanging - coloured grey. I want to feel some hope for the future, feel that my life is moving forward because I am living not just for myself but for another person who depends upon me to move forward. I want to experience life's trial and tribulations with my child; share in their successes and their failures. I want to feel some hope for the future not dread that it will be more of the same. At its basest level I want to have what everyone else around me has experienced with ease, and I want to stop struggling.

*I cannot explain the "knot" in my very core - the feeling that I am becoming "less" and the feeling that I am in no man's land. I don't want to be here - I don't have anything in common with most women. I always wanted children, so I don't relate to those women who chose not to have children, and my whole life has been in preparation for a child. I have lived my life setting up a home, trying to be financially secure for a child, buying a family home, even a car that is family friendly. I don't know how to be purely selfish - just focussed on _my _enjoyment - because I have always had an eye on that future that involves a child. I have nothing in common with women who have children - because they define themselves by reference to their motherhood. Their daily lives are spent involved with their child/ren - they plan their lives around their families.

As Libran said we live in a child centred World - the Article she mentions is very interesting. Libran was worried about getting "shot down" for even stating the views held in this article! Why? I think it is because We, the involuntary childless, are the minority. Our voices are small compared to the very vocal Parent-majority. Everything relates in some way to children/families. It does not matter what product is being sold to us, it somehow uses the family/children to sell - even the recent Dulux paint advert I saw last night is all about a man painting his newly born child's bedroom from blue to pink! We are saturated by images of what we should be striving to attain and for those of us who cannot, the pain is worsened because we feel "other". Rowan is right, I am not from Venus either - more like Mars because it is so barren, and inhospitable!

How are you getting on with your progress through the book Helen? Are you starting to feel more positive?

Take care

Nbrxxxx


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## karenann

I have read this thread with interest today and must say that I am also going to sit down and attempt to write down the reasons why I so desperately wanted a child. After having such an awful day yesterday I needed to pick myself up dust myself down and start again - something I appear to be doing a lot of lately !! I was struck by the last post by nbr - I totally understand where you are coming from wanting to be and feel 'normal' - its so hard feeling so outside I often say that I feel like I am in a goldfish bowl looking out on everyone else living their lives normally while I am in limbo land - its a feeling of not belonging anywhere. I has hepled me finding this forum as I know I am not alone and that there are others who are sharing in this struggle. We need to remember that we are strong women - we must be to go through all that we do and come through the other side - we are survivors ! Sending you all   and   
karenann xx


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## brightspirit

Hi girls

Helen you really do write very expressively and with a lot of (yes self-deprecating !) humour but I share so many of your feelings or now I can say used to...
Libran I read that article at a service station at the w/e about children not making you happy and yes having just spent a fab week in cornwall I did start to notice the (often ) miserable parents and the screaming kids and I did feel quite relieved not to have them - so it does happen just give it time (and effort yes ) and at the end of the day try and believe in yourself and accept others ... it does get better honest


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## Sunset

Hi Everyone
I have also been reading this thread with interest.  I can identify with a lot of what you are saying.  For me it is the lack of choice.  I have no choice that I cannot have a child of my own to love and to nuture.  I will never be a mummy/granny.  It is so so so unfair.  I'm very sad that there is a part of life that I'm never going to experience. 
I try to count my blessings.  I am very blessed.  A doctor once told me that I don't have a sign above my head saying I'm infertile.  There is much more to me.  Of course he was right.  
I have a wonderful circle of friends/family/work colleagues and yet in the midst of it all I feel isolated.  I feel very false.  I feel like everyone is in a club that I'm forever excluded from.  I have nothing to contribute in their conversations.  There is a dimension missing from my life........
Sorry I've re-read what I've written.  I realise it's very negative.  I think myself and my fiance would make great parents.  If he hadn't met me would he be a Dad?  Will he resent me in the future?  
So many thoughts running through my head!!  
Good night
S xoxo


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies,

How are we all today? I've had a really good day, so i wanted to share it with you. As Corin from Big bro would say 'I'm buzzing'. 

I'm chuffed because I managed to get through a counselling session today without once reaching for the box of tissues. I told the counsellor that although I still had occasional 'bad days' they were getting fewer and far between and actually i now know that whatever happens, everythings going to be alright. And do you know what - I actually meant it! Now that's a break through.

Even weirder, as I left the hospital and headed for the car, a chap in his car flashed me to cross the road and then pulled up along side me and said 'just doing my good deed for the day, and by the way you have a lovely bum!' Instead of thinking 'oh my God, weirdo with a fixation for big bottomed women', I laughed and said 'thanks', to which he replied 'no thank you'.  So that just made my day.

Anyway it's time to 'move on' to *Step 3: Surviving the Loss*.

The author of the book says:

_'Step three is critical because it is a step of hope. Now is the time, this is the place where you can change your basic mind-set about a life without children. Hopelessness can turn to hope, resignation to resolution. When we change our attitudes towards childlessness, we set the stage to change our feelings, change our lives'_.

Yippee! At last something positive to look forward to.This is what we've all been waiting for eh ladies? If only it were that easy....
Ok so saying to myself 'that's it, no more sadness, I'm going to get on with my life' will not make my bad days go away. It won't give *Simone* back her confidence and self-reliance; it won't reduce the biological desire that drives *Rowan* to yearn for a child; it won't make women like *nbr1968* and *Karenann* feel 'normal' and less like an 'outsider' looking in at everyone else playing happy families; and no *Sunset*, it won't take away those feelings that life is so unfair.  
BUT.... it will show a willingness for change. It will show a commitment for change, a willingness to 'let go'.

Sometimes I worry that if I 'move on' too quickly, or appear to be coping with my infertility too well, people will think that my desire to have children wasn't that strong in the first place. This couldn't be further from the truth, but perhaps this irrational concern about what other people think of me, stops me from 'moving on'. Yet I know I want to be happy again, even without children. I know I deserve to be happy again. I think at some stage we all have to make the decision as to whether we choose to be a 'victim or a survivor'. Life may have dealt us an unfair hand, but how we play that hand depends on us.

So this step is all about the determination to create a rich, full, satisfying life for yourself, even though it will be a life without children. It doesn't deal with the 'how' (probably just as well, as we might not be able too answer 'how', at this point) that will slowly come, with time. First comes, the commitment and determination.

So come on, say the Serenity Prayer with me, and lets make a commitment to living a better life, with all the ups and downs that go with IF.

_ God, grant me the serenity,_
_ To accept the things I cannot change,_
_ The courage to change the things I can,_
_ And the wisdom to know the difference._

All the best ladies,
Helen xxx

P.S Big thanks to Libran and Brightspirit for their kind and thoughtful comments. Sorry if I've missed out any of the ladies. I do tend to warble on a bit!!!!!


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## nbr1968

Dear helen6887

Thank you for your message to try and brighten our day, and once again for sharing! 

Step 3 is going to be hard - I too want to be happy, but moving on to accepting a life without a child is the unknown, and scary, while the present, though utterly sad, is a place where the parameters are known, and so somehow can no longer scare me. Does that make sense?

I want to move on, but I think if I am honest, I want to be one of those "urban myth" stories where I miraculously conceive naturally after 15 years of trying and have a child, and _then_ I can move on from my grief at losing my son - i know you lost a child at 16 weeks - how have you dealt with that?

Moving on with what I perceive as nothing to show for all the years of hurt, is just too hard. I am stuck. I suppose right now my commitment and determination are not enough to move me forward? I do agree that we can choose how to play the had that life has dealt us - but to use a poker analogy, right now I am going to "fold" this hand!

Is your counsellor a specialist in IF? I had one session with a counsellor referred by my doctor and she was useless - she actually talked to me about her daughter's situation in our session (two children, no father, you get the drift) and I did not go again!

Would you be able to share one thing (no matter how small) that helped you to move to Stage 3? What are your plans for a brighter, happier future without children? I am really struggling right now, everything I do to "distract" just feels like I am kidding myself! Even the smallest thing you could advise that has worked for you, I would take eagerly with both hands! I am getting pretty low and want to feel better.

By the way, kudos on the "nice bottom"!

Sorry to be so negative after your lovely bright post!

Take care and do keep us updated

Nbr1968xxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Helen,

Lovely, positive post! Well done for getting through the counselling session so well!
You must have a very good counsellor, who I would guess is skilled in this area? It's not always easy to find one who is and other counsellors, though they can be excellent for other issues, sometimes struggle with the impact of childlessness on their clients. Yours sounds very good.
About the Serenity Prayer, I just have one question and it's the one I've always had:
How on earth can we tell the difference?
In other words, how do I know it's time to give up? I do know that at my age it's very unlikely I'll conceive naturally but it's not impossible. Plenty of women over 40 do conceive. And there are women in their fifties having babies with IVF. We can't try that as we simply don't have the money but I may not be this poor forever. Who knows?
I am so sick of this age related rubbish. Men over 50 have been having children for thousands of years. Some men have yet more babies in their seventies. Youth isn't everything, we could all comment on the topic of teenage mothers, who have nothing to give. (I wouldn't have had anything either, at 15 or 16!)
And why on earth, if there is no hope at all, doesn't the cycle stop?! 
Sorry to ruin your positive mood, that wasn't my intention! It's just that this stuff hurts! 
And as I have other health issues, it only makes me hate my body even more. The furious anger has to go somewhere and I have no outlet. Problem is the more stress I pile into it, the sicker it gets. 
Anyway, thanks for posting all this stuff. It's interesting (excruciating but interesting!).

Rowanxx


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## helen6887

Ah Rowan and nbr1968, big      coming to both of you. I can see you're both really having a tough time of it aren't you? I do know how you both feel, I've been there myself. 

Both of you mention my counsellor, yes she is the hospital counsellor that I was assigned on my first IVF treatment. She is an IF speacialist, and she's very good. I've been seeing her regularly for the last two years and don't think I could have got through this without her. After my last failed FET I thought she would have to sign me off (as I was seeing her as a NHS patient), but she insisted that I still needed help and has let me carry on seeing her for free!  

I think a good counsellor helps, but yes I agree with you ladies, it only helps if they are IF specialists, otherwise they can't really relate to how you feel, and heavens forbid if they start talking about their own children/grandchildren. I'm pleased to say I have no idea if my counsellor has kids or not, and that's the way I like it.

nbr1968 - I wish I could give you the magic answer that would help eleviate your suffering, but i don't have the answers.    All I can say is that everything you've been through has not been in vain. It's better to have tried to achieve your dream of having a child, than never tried at all. At least you will look back one day and say, 'I tried, I did my best'. It isn't your fault that you haven't suceeded. Look at the rest of us, we've all 'failed' to have children, but we're not to blame. 

As for losing your baby, you will never get over that! I certainly haven't. The only thing I can say is if given the choice, would you rather you had never experienced pregnancy at all? Do you regret one day of how you felt when you saw that blue line on the pregnancy test; the elation at telling your loved ones, the pure joy and wonder that there was this little being inside you? I am so glad that I actually got to experience  pregnancy, to have my dream brought to life for just a little while, that even though it's so painful to think of what I've lost, I can't regret having experienced it in the first place. Some women never even get that far.

After my last miscarriage I came really close to 'folding' my hand, as you put it. I used to walk the dog along a quiet stretch of the canal, and I started to stop at the bridge and look down into the water and think it would all be so easy to jump in and just sink to the bottom, and never come up for air. I even used to look around at the stones, and wonder how many I would need to fill my pockets to make sure I would sink (unfortunately only a huge boulder would do for a lady of my size!!  ). Then I went to stay with my family (mum,dad and sister) for Christmas and I guess I was feeling really sensitive, but I realised how much I loved them, and that I just couldn't do that too them. It was soon after that I started seeing tthe counsellor and she got me to see that I only really had three choices:-

You either say:  I am so miserable, so sad. My life is not worth living, there is no point to my  
                      existance and therefore I should end it now.

Or you can say:  I am so miserable, so sad. I will continue living the rest of my life being
                      miserable, sad and bitter. I will never be happy again. 

Or you can say: I am miserable and sad NOW. But I will continue to live the rest of my life and i
                      will strive to be happy again. I will not let my life be a wasted journey of 
                      'if onlys'.

Time is a great healer, and whilst I occasionally drop back into choice two, I know I will never again return to choice one. My life is far to meaningful and valuable to throw it away. So is yours nbr.

Rowan - you're right about that line in the serenity prayer about knowing when to tell the difference. I think that was the hardest decision I've ever made. Knowing when to give up trying. There is no 'right' time is there? I think there just comes a time in every IF woman's life when she says 'I've had enough, enough of examinations, injections, operations, failure and empty years'. 
My DH and I don't really have much of a sex life left, but when we do   we don't use contraceptives, we haven't for 14 years, so why start now? Yes some small part of me, like you, thinks a miracle of conception will occur, even after all this time. But I know that in all probability it won't happen. But that's ok, I'm slowly coming to terms with it, I'm letting go. 

In the meantime I have found that keeping busy helps. Although my counsellor warns me not to shy away from my feelings, I find that I can plan my sad days, rather than just be overcome with emotion at any time night or day. I've taken up swimming and belly-dancing (i needed something feminine to make me feel like a proper woman again). I've recently completed a college course and am now able to seek a full-time job in a new career area, one which I think i can do well in, but more importantly one in which i can really enjoy. I remind myself every day, that I deserve to be happy. It helps to keep me on track when I'm having a bad day. 

I do wish both you ladies well. I can only tell you that like many ladies on this website, I can feel your pain. But I also know that things will get better for all of us.  

Take care,
              Helen xxx


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## karenann

Hello Ladies sending you all   

Thanks to Helen6887 for the inspiring post 
I look forward to the day where I can really move forward and find another meaning to life and be happy - I too echo the thoughts of nbr and Rowen - I have had some other health issues which are currently being affected by the way I feel. It hasn't helped that AF has been ridiculously late this month which prompted another pregnancy test - 3 minutes seemed like 3 hours - then again all those feelings were churned up.I know I am not pregnant but a tiny part of me holds on to that small hope - I mean I managed it a few times - even though I lost them.  Its bad enough to have to have made the decision to give up but why can't my body just comply and save me this pain and heartache.
I can't answer how you know its time to give up - it was a horrible decision to make and I have had days when I wonder whether I should have carried on.  For us I think we just felt it was too hard to go on and realistically our options were limited - we couldn't afford IVF. -  I was worried that people would say that I didn't really want it - but nothing could be further from the truth. I have never experienced that feeling of peace and belonging that I felt on the occasions when I was pregnant - I know it sounds strange but it was a sense of contentment - that I had found my role in life. - I don't know if I will ever feel that again. 
I have been lucky enough to find a really good counsellor through my GP but I can only have sessions - so it feels a bit daunting that shortly it will end.  
I really don't want to end up a bitter old woman and I have been looking to find other ways of leading a fulfilled life.I just don't know where to begin  My main problem is that I work for my DH who has his own business - so I am stuck at home most of the week which I am finding is not helping the feelings of isolation.
I have been looking at courses - hadn't thought about belly dancing but what a good idea - and it may help me feel more like a woman - not sure if I have the confidence at present though - The thought of me and my  wobbly belly trying to be co ordinated is at least providing me with a laugh - would scare the neighbours though  lol 
Some days it feels so hard but it does help to read your posts and  I hope that one day soon I can begin to find another meaning in my life - right now it just seems meaningless and lonely. We live to fight another day though - here's to a better day tomorrow for all of us - sending all of you lovely ladies      

Congratulations on the nice bum !!  -


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## helen6887

Ah Karenann - my   is massive and wobbly, as is my belly, but you know what, both are perfect for belly-dancing!!!! 

I'm sorry to hear you've been suffering with health problems recently, not what you need when you're already going through a traumatic experience. You sound like a really courageous woman - you've obviously thought long and hard before stopping your treatment and giving up on 'your dream'. I too went through the same feelings of guilt, knowing that we'd stopped after only two IVF treatments, but we shouldn't feel guilty. I'm still paying for my last failed treament (ouch!) and we were at the point when we would have had to seek a second mortgage if we wanted to continue with treatment. Taking what seemed like the sensible decision at the time, doesn't make it any easier. But it's not just the money,it's the emotional roller coaster that you climb on, everytime you start a new cycle. It's horrendous. I really don't know how anyone can go through 4 or 5 cycles of IVF and still remain sane at the end of it. Don't let other people judge you over your decision to give up (well not unless they're prepared to put their money where their mouth is   haha).

You say you feel isolated at home, both living and working there. I know it sounds twee, but joining some sort of group was the answer for me. It keeps you busy, allows you to meet new people (that don't know about your situation), make friends, activate your body, and in my case my mind!! Funnily enough I've found that I'm drawn to women in their 50's more than my own age group. This is because most of them have grown up children and are now looking for a 'new' life themselves. They don't as a rule, talk about their kids all the time, and they appear to have more interests and have led more exciting lives than women my age. I avoid making friends with women with young families because it's too painful, especially when they talk about their kids all the time or god-forbid complain about their kids all the time (yes I do have one friend that does this constantly - but we've been friends for over twenty years, and so I tolerate it).

I'm glad you got to experience that lovely content feeling that pregnancy gives you. Like I said to nbr and Rowan, we're the lucky ones. Hold on to that lovely feeling, cos you're right, we might never feel that way again, but we've still got that precious memory eh?  Sending you a big hug.

Helen xxx


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## Rowan22

Helen,

Thank you so much for your kind, compassionate reply.   
We've never had the chance to try IVF as money makes it impossible and I suspect this is one reason why I can't just give up, I still feel there are options out there if only we could win the lottery or something! My dh still thinks my poor old body might deliver the goods, I don't feel so optimistic. On the other hand I suppose as long as the cycle still keeps trundling on, there might just be a chance. 
Money talks, unfortunately and it does open doors. There was a programme about two gay men who are adding to their family (I think they've already got three children) last night. I didn't watch it, as I forgot it was on and perhaps that's just as well but these men are millionaires and of course, that means anything is possible. 
Anyway...your counsellor is quite right, for situations we can't change (and obviously that would be option 1, if it was possible), it is a question of trying to get to a place of acceptance. I am not there yet. I just manage one day at a time. I can't look into the future, it's far too painful. 
I loved the belly dancing! Now, that sounds great!

Rowanxx


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## Sunset

Dear Helen
Your posts are lovely and very thought provoking.
I went to see a counsellor when I was about 30yrs old.  It was one of the most positive things I've done.  
Many thanks to all of you for your posts

Love Sunset xo


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## Montagne

Dear Helen and all

I haven't been on the site for months and months, but feeling a little wobbly tonight (having spent the evening with two proud mummies) and logged in to find this wonderfully inspirational thread. Thank you so much for your thoughts Helen and I will certainly make sure that I find the time to sit down and think through these steps. I have been feeling much stronger, but I still wonder where I'm heading and what it's all about and on evenings such as tonight I wonder how the pain can still feel so raw so suddenly........Reading your thoughts on the things you will never have brought a tear to my eye and made me realise that you are right - I generally tend to avoid such thoughts, but how useful it is to actually face up to it all bravely and honestly.......
Thoughts and strength to all...
Love
S
X


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## nbr1968

Dear Helen

Thank you so much for the support  . I too have had option 1 thoughts - and like you I look at my Dh and think I could not do that to him, and I know that the thoughts are just that - I think they are more about allowing myself to understand the full depth of my grief more than anything.

I too work from home and that increases the sense of isolation. Having said that I don't think i could cope working in a larger environment where I would have to listen to stories of children and have pg colleagues, so i think that I am quite lucky to have been spared that. One of my FF has had to go through that and it was hard for her!

Keeping busy and finding a hobby that makes me feel feminine are *great* ideas! Not sure about belly dancing but I won't discount anything. I have been waking in the night having thoughts racing in my head and on a few occasions have had what I can only think of as panic attacks - heart racing, finding it hard to breathe, crying. I need to find a good counsellor. If counselling requires so much understanding - I think it would really help me.

I am glad I am not the only one who has delusions that she will miraculously get pg naturally! Like you Helen, IF has affected our  - it became all about BMS and now even though you try not to think about it, we both know that the thoughts are always there. Like you after 15 years we have not used contraceptives. But then surely that just keeps perpetuating the myth? It was suggested by a friend that I do start using contraceptives just for a while to give myself a break, and I can see the merit in that. I just don't know what to do for the best?

Thank you again for this thread - I can see that it is helping so many of us express our thoughts. As karenann said, I don't want to end up more bitter - just sharing with others who know how this feels makes each day a little less bleak.

Take care all, and Helen big  to you!

Nbrxxx


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## Clomidia

Dear Helen 
Thanks so much for posting. This is a lovely thread, and I feel very privileged that you are sharing so much with us - as are the other contributors.

I haven't got much to add, or put it quite so eloquently as you all have, but I can really relate to all your stories about knowing when to stop. One day I would think I just CAN'T do IVF again, another day I would beg, borrow or steal to be able to fund another cycle.   It is so hard to decide when to give up, and it was more a gradual realisation rather than a firm 'that's it' but dh and I are there now.  I know I don't ever want to be in that place again, with all that horrible, horrible hope... only to be dashed again.  

Reading the posts, I feel I have moved through Steps 1 and 2 over the past year, and am  currently in Step 3, but we are now considering adoption so I've kind  of had to put those thoughts on hold a bit. I do wonder if this is me  just postponing the inevitable but I keep coming back to the fact that this is something I want to do. 

I also admit I dream of a miracle pg ...    It's good to know I'm not the only one! I don't know if I'll ever stop dreaming, until my AF stops for good I guess!  
  
But enough of me: Hugs to all you lovely ladies and thanks again for sharing


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## helen6887

Quick welcome to Montagne and Clomidia. Thanks ladies for sharing abit about your own journeys with IF. 

Montagne - we all have our wobbley nights, where we just can't seem to hold back the tears. Hope you're feeling a bit better today? Sometimes a good 'ol cry is what we really need.  

Clomidia - Many of us can emphasize with your dilema about whether to stop treatment or 'beg, borrow and steal' to keep going. You're right that whilst we still have periods there is always that small glimmer of hope, which sometimes can hinder the whole process of letting go and 'moving on'. I read in one book that one woman resorted to having a hysterectomy because she couldn't cope with the endless years of hoping and yearning for something that probably wouldn't happen. It's an extreme measure, but I can understand why she did it.

Glad you have both joined in this thread - it's a wonderful support group, hopefully it will help you with the pain, grief and difficulty in coming to terms wwith childlessness.

Helen xxx


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## beachgirl

Just wanted to wish everyone a good weekend


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## barbaramary

Helen - just wanted to say thank you for this thread.  It is inspiring and you are helping lots of others - lurkers like myself.  One thing struck a cord with me - the other day I was acting daft and my DH said made a comment about me being happy.  I said I am happy and then immediately felt guilty about this.  But why should I?  I have the right to be happy even though I will never have children.

So thank you for taking my guilt away and    to everyone else on here


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## leeloo

Thank you so so much for creating this thread Helen and thank you to all of you for making me feel so much less alone at one in the morning after my monthly cry at the onset of AF. You have between you all echoed pretty much every sentiment I've felt since the beginning of the year. Some of your posts made me laugh with relief at how "normal" my feelings are.  xxx


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## karenann

Hi ladies

Wanted to say thank-you to Helen for your lovely reply to my last post. It certainly helps to know I can come here for support and understanding when it all gets too much. I'm not sure what has happened this week to make me feel so bad but I have just wanted to sleep to avoid the pain. Its been too hard and I wondered whether it was worth it.

Thanks to Nbr also - I have spent so long wishing I had a job - I didn't actually stop to think about how I would manage around all the proud parents and pregnant women - your post made me think about that - At the moment I just wouldn't manage that at all - food shopping was bad enough this week - It felt like everyone in the local area who had a small baby had gone shopping at the same time as myself and DH - So I guess for now I am more grateful that I get to work from home.

Have got our local adult education prospectus and am currently looking for a course to go on - Can't seem to find the one entitled ' How to move on from not having children - a crash course in acceptance '  Wishful thinking that there is a magic solution - So I'm deciding whether to bare the belly and wobble lol or try something different.

Sending you all big thanks and     for the support


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## Every cloud....

This is such an interesting and poignant thread ( one I feel may become very personal to me shortly!) that I wanted to bookmark so that I could come back to it and read all your messages when I have the time to really get the most out of them.

You are all very brave, not just in terms of making the decision to accept what your life could be without children but also in the honesty in which you articulate your feelings. ( hope this doesn't sound patronising...really not met to)


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## nbr1968

Hello all

Karenann -   I often time when I go shopping so that I will not hit "prime" children times - my heart aches when i see babies in those carrier things they have on trolleys!

Leeloo - you are normal - we all are - we need to be kind to ourselves and allow ourselves to feel those uncomfortable feelings!

Barbaramary - well done for being happy! That's what we are all striving for so hold on to it - you deserve to be happy!

SusanG - sorry you have to have another op - why is this never easy?

Did anyone listen to Radio 4 Woman's Hour today? Talking to mostly Voluntary Childless women - alot of what they said made rational sense, but then they did choose alot of women who said they could divert their maternal urges to their pets! While I do understand that pets can be an outlet for love, to me they are not a child substitute. The women they talked to were very accomplished, had been succesful in their careers and seemed genuinely glad they had no children. But I could not see myself in any of them - I could not fully relate. That's the trouble with how I feel - I do not "fit" in with those who have children, and I cannot relate to women who have never wanted children. I just want to "fit" somewhere and move forward and not be stuck anymore.

The trouble is my heart will not listen to my head - no matter what I do to distract myself, what activities I set up for myself, in the inevitable quiet time I can be in tears in minutes.

Not having great time right now - but so glad to be able to come and talk to those who get it.

Nbrxxx


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## Sunset

Hi everyone
I too find this thread very interesting - I can identify with a many of the posts.  I was on a work night-out last night.  It was good fun.   One of the boys has recently become a Dad for the first time.  There was lots of chat about labour, breast-feeding, nappies etc.  You know the usual!  He really is excited and it has def opened up a whole new world for him!!  I'm never going to have any of those experiences.  That makes me sad.
Nbr1968 - you mentioned a radio programme.  I feel that the key difference is that those women have made the decision not to have children.  I didn't have a choice.  That makes it much much more difficult for me.  There are many days when I'm perfectly happy - I count my blessings - my glass is half full!
There are other days that I feel very very differently:1.will my husband-to-be look back in years to come and wish that he'd had children? will he wish he'd married someone else? 2.why do my friends talk about their children all the time/complain that they never get a minute etc etc...how can I avoid meeting up with them?(these aren't the thoughts of a good friend and I feel q ashamed of those thoughts)what did we talk about before children came along!? 3.I'm never going to go through pregnancy/childbirth/motherhood with my husband and parents (I'm their only daughter). 4.colleagues tease me about having children etc etc...
Today is a good day for me.  I'm so blessed in so many ways.1.fab husband-to-be 2.great friends/family/colleagues - their very last intention is to hurt me.  They just don't know my situation. 3.I'm healthy/fairly fit (sort of!!!)......I have a generally good life.
Sometimes people make seemingly very innocent comments that cut me to the bone....and I can feel tears....but what can I do?  
I would dearly love to have a child.  I can't.  Motherhood is one aspect of my life which I'm not going to experience.  That makes me sad.  I'm going to have bad days.  Everyone does.  I'm a daughter, fiancee, sister, aunt, niece, friend, colleague....it's time to count my blessings. I'm beginning married life soon.  Our dreams and plans are very different from most of my friends.  That's unavoidable.  But it's OK.  Exciting times are ahead!!

Take care s xoxoxox


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## karenann

Nbr thanks again for the support   - I definitely what you said in your post, especially about wanting to fit in. I missed the woman's hour programme it sounded interesting - people have suggested that I get a pet - but its definitely not a substitute child. It is like being in 'no man's land' we don't fit in with those who have children and don't fit in with those who choose not to have them.  I've tried to explain this feeling to my dh but he doesn't get it. Sadly most of my family have tried to ignore what I am going through perhaps because thy can't understand it - I feel like the outsider - the odd one out.

Nbr I feel for you and understand how you are feeling - I wish I could offer some helpful advice to make it easier  - Hang in there - I think we have to hold on to the positive and inspirational posts here  -  there is a light at the end of the tunnel - you are strong - you have made it this far. Take care

Karenann xxx


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## leeloo

So true Karen Ann...involuntarily childless is what we are; and we are out there in silent numbers! Thank goodness for this board. 

One of the things I find hardest is the mental work it takes not to bring other people down and to try to let them feel comfortable in their "childfullness" around me....its not their fault they have kids and I don't; and its not always perfect for them either. One of my best friends had, until recently, hidden her post natal depression from me (additional guilt arioound me for feeling the way she did, bless her)....I was so glad when she finally told me. Helping her helps me to some extent ( a reminder that baby is not "all there is"). But its still not easy being around families, i find it mentally exhausting (as well as the pysical exertions of running around after toddlers!). Does anyone have any good coping strategies??

Clomidia, we are thinking about adoption too.....I've not yet landed on the right board on FF to discuss i don't think, but let me know if you've found a good one? 

L x


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## brightspirit

Hi Girls

  Just wanted to share of few of my top tips for survival !!!... and beyond.As you say it is a long tunnel through which we all pass (eventually -I didn't believe it at the time but assure all of you it does end and no the light is not another train coming )

1.Counselling -painful but helped me so much
2.Yes my dog and cat saved me from going nuts
3.Belly Dancing (like Helen who started this thread) have made some fab friends and no we dont talk kids !!
and restores your femininity.
4.New friends of all ages -join clubs and get off the computer/get out of the house.
5.Yoga -really worked for me -mind,body and spirit -has helped heal the pain and am now a Yoga Teacher
6.Find something to make you laugh -however stupid (Vicar of Dibley my fave)
7.Sponsor a child -we sponsored a child in Africa at least now we are able to help a child attend school and give them a chance.
8.Remember the research having kids does not necessarily make you happier !!! (we just think it might )
9.Believe in yourself and accept others for who they try to be (we all struggle in life about something)
10.Give it time -life is short and not having kids is not the end of the world -please believe that.

Hugs to you all -how about your tips !!!

Bright Spirit xxx


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## helen6887

Bright Spirit - thanks so much for your fab suggestions to help 'move on'. I don't know about the other ladies on this thread, but I'm finding it a real struggle being out and about in the 'summer hols' period. Everywhere we go, there are kids and families having fun. It's hard not to look on them without feeling a pang of painful regret.

I agree with you bout the pets (the dog has been my God send!), the counselling (nothing like having a safe place to bawl your eyes out and speak from the heart), sponsoring a child (ours is a little lad from Kenya sponsored through Abigail Ministries, but World Vision is another worth while cause) and the activities. Of course it doesn't 'make up' for not having children, but anything that can help you cope with the loss and the pain of IF has to be a good thing eh? 

Hope the rest of you lovely ladies are doing well?

Will be updating to STEP 4: Letting Go Of The Blame asap.

Helen xxx


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## brightspirit

Hi Helen and all you ladies
yes summer can be hard as we envisage an ideal world of fun and laughter with kids -and I don't say that lightly -but with the process of moving on it does become easier and now I quite like working thru' August as no traffic/less emails etc and you get to go away off peak -trust me it's not easy but the pain honestly will ease in time and eventually truly these hurts will pass.
we sponsor a little girl in Kenya btw thru'World Vision -maybe we might get to go there one day ??
If anyone else would like to sponsor a child -it took me a while to be able to do but well worth it.

  Anyway best of luck with stage 4 Helen and hi to everyone need a choccie fix !!

Bright spirit
xx


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## Rowan22

Hi all,

I have to say I admire your courage and optimism. Where do you get it from?
I'm stuck here on day 1 of another period, feeling awful physically (as usual) and trying to cope with all the usual feelings of failure, heartache, hopelessness and sheer and utter fury and hatred of this body! This isn't the only health problem I have and there are times when I could destroy it, really! When I think of all those people who regularly get blind drunk, use drugs, etc and they don't have a single health problem it makes me furious. 
I have done nothing to deserve any of this and the illnesses were the reason I wasn't able to conceive in my thirties. 
Every month the same hope, then the same despair. My body is torturing me and I can't even get any help to stop the periods. 
As for the six week summer holiday, don't get me started. It causes us financial problems, too. I just wish to God the government would do something to reduce it but I don't suppose it ever will. As it is, I can't go out because everywhere you go, even to the supermarket, the world is playing happy families.
Anyone got any helpful suggestions? How to get through yet another period?  I can't eat chocolate or drink, either, I'm diabetic!

Rowanxxx


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## Every cloud....

Hi Rowan

It's really difficult to try to offer advice when you know next to nothing about the person you're trying to help. But my 'thing' at the moment is bread making...the dough doesn't seem to mind a bit of frustration taken out on it!

Do you have any hobbies or want to have some? Could throw loads of ideas at you.....!

Please don't think all the families you see out there are happy, if you watch them most of them seem weighed down by their responsibilities and don't appear to enjoy their blessings one little bit


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## Rowan22

Hi Cloud,

Thanks for the reply. It was nice of you. Looking at your signature, I guess age is a factor in your case, too? 
It might be easier if I could just give up all hope but I can't and we've all read these stories about women who've conceived well into their forties...
Thumping dough sounds like an excellent idea! The angrier you get with it the better the bread comes out!
I do have some hobbies, thanks, things like gardening and we have cats but nothing takes the place of a family, obviously. I work from home and I'm isolated, apart from my poor dh who's had my emotions vented on him all morning. I just hate these periods and always have, as they've always been extremely painful physically and now there's psychological anguish on top.   I don't tend to feel any better until midway through day 3. 
All I can do is struggle through the days until the wretched thing finally stops, which takes about six days in my case. 
We're not in a position to try treatment, unfortunately as we simply can't afford it. 
My mother's feeling her grandmotherless status as well, I think, which doesn't help. She's the only one in her generation in the family who hasn't got grandchildren. Another way of making me feel a useless failure!
I take your point about the families but I assume the children were wanted. I've never spoken to any parent who wished she hadn't had them, anyway, even when they're causing problems. 
I just keep longing for September!

Rowan


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## beachgirl

I think that people always look at others and think the grass is greener..those with children probably look at the childfree and envy their ability to be carefree, have long lunches, go out at the drop of a hat etc..whilst those who want children envy the family dinners, playing in the park and reading the bedtime stories...


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## nbr1968

Hi again

I think that although it is true that we all look at others (in our case parents) and wish we had their "troubles", and no doubt some of them look at us and wish they had our "freedom", but for me the issue has always been one of _choice_. They chose to have their children, I did not choose my IF. So when they feel angry, frustrated, tired etc, at least they can say "i chose this so I had better get on with it". I cannot say that when I feel the anger, frustration etc.

I too find summer diff - all the children out and about and family outings etc....I want that so badly. But it is not just that.....I hate the fact that I cannot even watch TV without being bombarded by images of "happy child centred" families - I find myself saying "why are they showing adverts for nappies during the ad break for this very late night prog?!" and get very upset - it is totally stupid - and the series of ads they have at the moment showing a woman go through life as her child grows up to have a child of her own (advertising sun cream for goodness sake!) does my head in! Sorry for the rant!

Anyway, as Cloud said it is not all rosey being a parent, and remember, "the grass is greener on the other side because it is fertilised with BS (male bovine manure for those of a more polite disposition!).

AFM, still cannot move on through the stages - stuck in bitter mode! let us know how you get on Helen!

Nbrxx


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## Every cloud....

Hi Rowan

How you feeling today? Much better I hope!

Def. age is the main factor in my case so that's why we're going down the donor egg route. I don't have a problem with that just wish it work sooner rather than later!!! In the meantime I try to keep busy, I don't work and live very much in the country but on days like this I realise how lucky I really am.

Do you have any plans for trying to get treatment or is this the time for trying to accept and moving on? (sorry if personal questions!)

Cloud


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## Rowan22

Hi Cloud,

Not too personal at all, don't worry!
I have a few years on you, unfortunately though I am still the sunny side of 50. Donor egg tx is probably the only sensible thing to try but we can't afford it. As my cycle is infuriatingly regular, I haven't given up hope of a miracle and as I haven't entirely given up, I probably shouldn't post on this board but I can't post on the ones where people are actively pursuing treatment. We just can't, at the moment. My dh keeps saying our circumstances might improve but I suspect only if we won the lottery!
I feel a bit better, thanks, though AF is still here with the consequent pains, tiredness, etc. What a pointless nuisance it all is! I agree with Nbr about that wretched ad! Why is that families are being used to sell everything these days? Don't those of us without children have any spare cash? (Actually, I don't but I'm sure some people do!) There's that one about fairy liquid through the generations, that starts in the 50s with black and white! Grr! Give me men driving fast cars along impossibly empty roads any day!
No, I can't 'accept', that's impossible. Every time I go out, I see children with their parents and it hurts. I saw some father carrying his little daughter last Saturday and it was as if a spear shot through me. I just get through each day, that's all and try to appreciate the things I've got that I can enjoy. Work helps. 
Hope your tx starts soon! Are you going abroad or trying in this country?

Rowanxx


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## Clomidia

Hi ladies... having a rough day today and popped on for a quick read. Your posts are heartbreaking and yet supportive at the same time. 

Nbr, I can really relate to what you are saying, particularly about adverts. They drive me CRAZY with their whole family-oriented approach to selling anything. GRRRR. It seems women are represented in limited ways - young and pretty and carefree in their 20s, mothers in the 30s and 40s and then grandmothers from then on... what about the rest of us? 

I had a bit of a rant yesterday because I read in the Guardian about a couple who wrote in a year ago saying at the time that they just couldn't cope with having "only" one child and didn't feel like they fitted in... and how awful their life was...   and then guess what a year later we get a "great news" update; they had another natural pg and healthy baby. So happy days for them. I felt really angry and bitter and didn't like myself much   

To top all that, we have sadly experienced two deaths in the family in the last two weeks, and it has been sad and difficult, and yet at the same time I've got three or four friends who have given birth or about to, and so I feel I am stuck in the wrong blooming life right now... shouldn't dh and I be doing the birth-stuff, and not coping with the death-stuff at our age?? Gosh, it's so hard... I've often felt I'm trapped in some timewarp where everyone else is  getting on with their life and we are still here, plodding along, same  old, same old... 

leeloo, I've read the adoption posts on here, and it's been useful, although there's not a huge amount. I've also spoken to friends who've adopted and they're very supportive. I'll post again after our adoption meeting next month or PM me and I'll let you know how it goes - perhaps we could share our journeys?  

I'm really looking forward to reading the next Step, btw. It's been a year since our last tx and it still feels like I've got a long way to go to get over this whole thing... if I ever do, LOL!


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## karenann

Hi Clomidia

I am sorry you are having a rough day and am sending you big   -  I am sorry you have experienced 2 deaths in the family it sounds like you have had a tough time recently.  Don't be too hard on yourself when you get angry and bitter - we all have times like this and need to rant  ( I had mine today - and  felt  really guilty about it !!) 
Good luck with your adoption meeting I hope that it goes well for you
Love Karenann xx


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## Clomidia

Thanks so much Karenann.... I'm sorry for the ranty post now and a bit   
I'm much more my normal self today and apologise to you all for letting off so much steam!!! Onwards and upwards eh


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies,

How are we all today? Sorry haven't been keeping up with personals, been keeping busy, perhaps too busy (avoidance tactics - great for avoiding painful situations  ). Have been catching up on all your blogs, so want to say a few things before 'moving on' to Step 4 (at last.....).

Clomidia - so sorry to hear about the recent deaths in your family. No wonder you're feeling especially vunerable at this awful time.  Can really relate to your comment about being stuck in a time warp, I often feel that everyone else is moving on through life (encountering major milestones like having children) whilst we are indeed still plodding on, and on, and on....

Rowan - big  . How are you feeling today? I know you're struggling with your health at the mo. I too get really heavy, painful periods. Dosing up on Nurofen for the first few days gets me through it. I did once get prescribed 'methanamic acid' tablets from the doctor for them, but to be honest the Nurofen was more effective. I like Clouds idea of bread-making, all that kneading, battering and beating the dough might help release the pain and frustration. Stay strong, you're doing so well despite the difficulties you're dealing with. Had my parent's visit last week and mum confessed to me that she is finding it hard with her friends going on about their grandchildren all the time. I was so glad we talked about it, cos I was able to offer her some advice on how to tactfully tell her friends that it's painful when they talk about their grandchildren, when she knows she will never have any. Like you,I feel guilty that I've denied them of this pleasure, but don't let it compound your sense of failure. I actually feel closer to my mum as a result of IF, cos she feels a little bit of what I feel, not having grandchildren. It means we can both empathise with each other's feelings more. 

Group hug  for Cloud, Karenann, Bright Spirirt, Beachgirl, Nbr1968, Leeloo, Sunset, Barbaramary, SusanG, Montagne, Simone (Jamaicababytrying), Libran, Owenl, Florie, Kazz, Clomidia and Rowan. Let's keep on supporting eachother, it really does help! 

Now lets take a look at *Step Four: Letting Go Of The Blame.*

Must be honest, when I started reading this chapter of the book, I sort of skipped through it, thinking ah well I've never really blamed anyone for my infertility, it's just one of those things. Then I got to the authors list of all the people we might end up blaming for failed treatment, miscarriages, and related IF problems and I found myself ticking them off as applying to me!!! (  lol)

The author points out that any preoccupation of negative emotion - jealousy, hatred, blame--poisons our lives. She gives advice on how to free yourself of the blame we hold onto.

Here's the list of who we blame for IF: (perhaps consider which ones apply to you).

1. *Ourselves *(top of the list - of course  )
We blame ourselves for: (quoted from the book) 

being unable to conceive
having miscarriages
having imperfect bodies
having abortions
postponing a decision about having children
falling in love with and marrying partners who do not want children
connecting with the wrong men
 2. Husbands and partners for:

having fertility problems
not wanting children
not being willing to adopt
not being willing to try donor insemination
postponing a decision about having children
being poor father material because they are immature, are on drugs, drink excessively, gamble etc...
not understanding how much a child means to us
 3. Parents occasionally get blamed as well:

raising us in dysfunctional families, thereby depriving us of the mental health and maturity we needed to marry and have children of our own
passing their pathology onto us
pressuring us to have abortions
programming us to be career women, so we left starting a family until it was too late
 4. Mother-in laws are blamed for:

rejecting us when we couldn't have children
 5. Doctors and the medical profession are blamed for:

treating us in a cavalier manner
being insensitive to our needs, both physically and emotionally
putting us through painful procedures and tests and acting as though we should not mind the pain
 6. God or fate is blamed because:

God can do anything, God could have given us a child
we have no one else to blame
 7. Adoption agencies are blamed for:

having ridiculous criteria for suitable adoptive parents, criteria that excluded us because we are not married, or he smokes, we are too old, too poor, too fat, our bathroom is too small!
So have you found a few that apply to you. Can't say I agree with them all, but I do carry around the burden of a scattering of blame from each catergory. The author says that some of these blames are rational, some irrational. There is a really painful section where she asks us to accept the role we played in our infertility. Not deny it, but accept it. God that hurt! My DH and I started TTC when I was 26 and he was 38. I thought we had plenty of time, so didn't push the issue that hard, when after 6 years I still hadn't conceived. I kick myself now for not heading off sharpish to the GP and insisting on action. My DH was always vague about having children and was dead against IVF treatment (went against his Catholic beliefs). It's only in the last year or two that he has actually admitted that he never really wanted them in the first place  . So I blame myself that we didn't seek help until 8 years into trying. Then it was the slow train to IVF, ie tests, clomid, FSH injections, 4 years on waiting list for NHS IVF and so on and so on.... In the mean time my biological clock has been racing on, without a thought to the fact that all this fertility treatment stuff moves at a snails pace in comparison. I have to accept, however hard it may be, that I have contributed to my childnessless because I went along with my DH's ambivalence. I could have insisted we seek help earlier. I could have forced him to go down the adoption route, against his will. I could have left him. But I did none of these things. I can accept my own responsibility in my childnessless, but it's not easy.

Now the positive bit, ideas on how to 'stop blaming'.

1. Writing forgiveness - in one sentence summarize who and what it is that needs forgiving and write that sentence 20 times. Don't worry if you aren't being sincere in your feelings of forgiveness, it's the intention that counts.

2. Have a dialogue with the person you blame - you do this by yourself, taking both parts in the dialogue. You can either write it or by talking to yourself aloud  . If you're blaming yourself try using a dialogue between your 'critical self' and your 'forgiving self'. I know it sounds bizarre, but I've tried this during one of my counselling sessions and it really did help.

3. I refuse - another written exercise that helps if you are finding it really hard to stop blaming. Without stopping to think about it, write down the following sentence with the first ten things that come to mind. _I refuse to stop blaming because........._

4. Symbolic cremation - try this exercise on your own. Write a list of all the wrongdoings you can think of, either your own or those of others, everything that kept you from having a child. Study your list, keep it for a few days, and then when it feels right, burn it.

Haven't tried all of these exercises, but can see the sense in a couple of them. I do recognise that we have to let go of the blame, cos if we don't it will eat us up from the inside. A few of us have admitted that we have all this anger and bitterness inside us. Perhaps letting go of the blame might help us to elevate some of this. Let me know what you think.

Sorry it's a long one........

Helen xxx


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## beachgirl

Helen, thank you for your latest post, you're sucha  star x


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## karenann

Hi Ladies sending you all      
Hope you are feeling better Clomidia - you don't need to apologise - we all need to  let off steam and rant.
I have just read your post Helen and it is inspiring as usual. I have had one hell of a rough time - angry and ranting like a madwoman    - I read this post with great interest as I really have been blaming myself more than anything - I am going to try the exercises - especially the one about having a dialogue with the person you blame i.e me - I must remember it's best done in private - not on the way to tesco  lol - may well look even more    than usual. - Like last week when dh and I took a short break in Dorset - we went for a walk across the fields - There was a herd of cows in the first field - Well my counsellor told me that when out walking I should focus on the surroundings and take note of them to avoid my mind wandering to negative thoughts - So I took notice of the cows and said 'Hello' to them  - seemed like a good idea until we discovered they were really friendly and all decided to rush over to us - Dh was first to escape to the stile leaving me in the middle of a herd of cows - one of which decided to affectionately lick my leg !!!  At least it kept my mind off the negative thoughts lol   - You can tell we don't live in the country !!!
Have to say the breadmaking is a great idea thanks Cloud - I had been making cakes as a way of keeping busy and distracted - when I read the post I decided to give breadmaking  a go - I found it really helpful and quite therapeutic - a good way of getting rid of the frustration - and on the plus side dh appreciated the first batch of bread - so all the frustration went to a good cause lol !!
Will let you now how the exercises go - thanks again for the inspirational post 
love Karenann  xx


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## jamaicababytrying

Thanks again Helen for an insightful post.

To all the ladies   I hope you all are having a better week than me! 

This last post Helen is interesting, I have never blamed anyone else but myself! Go figure, I just didn't think there was anyone else to blame. My parents didn't do anything, my doctor has been great, my husband really has no issues (he already has a child) so i guess i could blame him for not being in the same miserable situation as me, but that's not fair. How can I honestly blame God that would be wrong, I guess I could be mad with him for not allowing me the opportunities other women have. 

So I guess i should try the exercise and talk to myself I am not sure if it will help. You know you blame yourself on one hand and then you beg your body to just work and give you that one thing you have always wanted and that is to be pregnant. Hmmm how does that work? Sometimes I get so frustrated and unhappy that I really don't like myself. I also feel like I could just give up move on and start a life childless and then i get jealous of others when i see them with their families. Confused? Yes, very! Angry? Yes very. 


Anyway I may not be making sense but I just wanted to say thanks again Helen for bringing us one step closer to acceptance! Whether we want it or not.

Take care all


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## owenl

I have been following this post with great interest - thanks to Helen for starting it.  I myself have not been posting - more of a lurker, my main reason is that although my IVF came to an end in May 10 when my 3rd and final attempt at IVF ended in miscarriage at 9 wks pg but since then I have hardly had time to grieve for what I can't have.  This is not because I have regret at not being able to have a child but because 2 weeks after my miscarriage my DH was still not communicating with me at all, I had realised over the previous months that our marriage was falling apart as we had nothing in common anymore but chose to deal with it after IVF whatever the outcome was finished.  Sadly by then it was too late, he wouldn't go to counselling with me, we have no intimacy, do nothing together and he refused to make the effort to improve things.  So it's now 11 weeks since my miscarriage, have been separated for 9 of those weeks although living under the same roof as neither of us has anyone to move in with and can't afford to move out until the house is sold which needs loads of work so it could be ages before we get a buyer.  

So now that I've finally accepted that my marriage is over after having a marriage separation agreement signed off by a solicitor this week, it's only now that I've had time to dwell on things.  For me I'm still clinging onto the hope that it could still happen.  I am in theory single although it would be difficult to go out with anyone else when living under the same roof, DH was the one with the infertility problem and as far as I know I am OK but age is against me, even if I do meet someone else, I don't reckon it's going to happen anytime soon as I need time to recover from the whole IVF and failure of my marriage before even considering looking for someone else but the clock is ticking if I am wanting to have a chance at children.  I had begun to accept a life without children without DH even although I felt he was to blame for our childless future (we had previously been turned down for adoption as he has child abuse history) and with no nieces/nephews I questioned whether my marriage could work in those circumstances but I went for counselling, decided I loved DH and would do anything to make it work but sadly he wasn't prepared to make the effort and now I feel like I have wasted years of my life with someone who doesn't even want to be with me.  

Like you Helen I blame myself for not seeking help sooner into our marriage on why we weren't conceiving - initially I wasn't actually trying to get pg but wasn't using contraception either so maybe I should have been quering earlier why we weren't getting anywhere.  My DH was also also very vague about whether he wanted children but he went along with the IVF although wasn't bothered when first 2 attempts didn't work and wasn't estatic when I did get pg but did cry when I had miscarriage but I think now this was because he realised there was nothing else holding our empty marriage together.

So now my AF has arrived and it's another reminder of everything I have been through and I ask myself would things have been different had we not gone through tx - I tell myself probably not as we still had problems back then but maybe we could have talked things through and finished our relationship earlier instead of trying to make it work when it clearly wasn't so I feel guilty for not doing something sooner and spoiling my chances of a future with someone else and kids.

Because I'd love kids, but I don't want to have them as a single person so going out and having a casual relationship to get pg isn't what I want.  I would have loved kids as part of a long-term commitment with my partner but without that kids don't seem so important and I am now trying to build up my single life and doing more things socially, have taken up hill walking again which I love, making new single friends so at least I'm not around kids all the time but it doesn't mean I am still not full of regret.


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## Every cloud....

Just a quick message ( will write more later but still haven't got dressed or dried my hair!!) Sorry Owen for what you're going through.

This IF is sometimes so all-consuming and has the effect of making us introverted that we can stop focusing on the bigger picture. It sounds like you making a huge effort to make a new life for yourself, and I know from bitter experience how difficult that can be especially at our age.  

I would say though that you never know what's around the next corner, who knows who'll meet on your next walking trip or in Tesco's!!!

I'm always looking for the positive things to come out of the sad times ( hence the name) and I think in your case it should be that you are still young and although probably not much comfort now but it's better ended now than in 10 years time. You're a positive, intelligent woman and lots of good times are ahead of you, don't give up on your dreams quite yet just think of them as put on ice for the time being.

Keep strong and we're here if you need us.


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## helen6887

Hi ladies,

Just a quick one to say thanks for the responses to last post. 

Owenl - so glad to see you're still hanging in there. God you've been through 'hell' recently, but you haven't given up - well done girl. Think as with previous posts you are doing the right thing re your DH. As Cloud says, better you make a break of it now than 10 years down the line. You ARE still young enough to start again (I know you feel ancient, thats how IVF makes you feel - but you're not). They say that life begins at 40, well in your case it's going to begin at 37!!!  

Keep blogging - we're all here to offer support when you need it.

Helen xxx


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## lulub

Owenl just wanted to give you a big  

xx


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## helen6887

Kudos to you Lulub, posting whilst on your 2WW. We all know how hard it is for you at that time in the treatment.    It works for you - but if not, we'll be here to offer you some support. xxx


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## lulub

Thanks Helen - it didn't work! I didn't even last 1 week of the 2 weeks - I had forgotten to update my details. I may well need the support of this group as this was my last go at IVF. My head is a bit all over the place, but I think we may go down the adoption route as I can't imagine living out the rest of my life without a child around. It has been very interesting and moving to read everyones posts on this thread. I think I will get some of the books that have been mentioned on here. 


xxx


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## helen6887

Ah Lulub, so sorry your final treatment didn't work  . It's a very difficult time knowing when to give up on the treatment and accept that it's not meant to be. Many of us on this thread, can't really let go of the idea that a 'miracle' will happen and we'll still have children one day. I've come to the conclusion that it's more about the 'intention' to move on with your life as a childlessness person as opposed to really giving up on it altogether. You won't be able to see it now, but things do get better, the pain does decrease, I promise. 

Helen xxx


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## lulub

Thanks for that


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## Clomidia

Hello lovely ladies.. .how are you all doing? 

Karenann, love your story about the cows!! That's hilarious!   

Lulub, so sorry about your bfn.  I wish you lots of luck with whatever decision you make in the future; dh and I are considering adoption and going to an open day next month, so pm me if you want to know how it goes perhaps? Good luck 

Owen, so so sorry to hear your marriage has ended. This IF is just so cruel and unfair at times. So very sad. Good luck for the future 

Jamaica... I could really relate to some of what you wrote... 

Helen, thank you so much for posting again. I must admit, I find this one really REALLY hard   
Honestly, I'm not sure I am capable of forgiving, or for giving up the blame just yet... It is a really tough thing to do. But your post has made me think about this, and reflect on it, and that is a good thing. I blame myself, absolutely, and give myself a really hard time, especially for my foolishness of my youth, for my conceitedness in the past, for stupidly thinking I could have it all... I think it's fair to say I have fallen far, far down off my pedestal throughout this IF process   Then occasionally I blame myself by thinking perhaps I'm trying too hard and scuppering things. 

I don't blame dh to be honest, I suppose I did the odd time in the past, when we had a bad SA or something, but honestly I am feeling more guilty and more responsible because of ME than I could ever want to blame him. He really deserves a family and has never ever done anything bad or wrong in his life, so it feels so unfair for him - I guess I am saying I have been stupid in the past and probably deserve this, but he does not... woah, lots of head-wrecking stuff there   

I blame other people too I think - friends or colleagues who have no problems getting pg, who plan their families... I sometimes feel they are a little cocky I suppose about having a family, and they act like it's so easy... but I guess it IS easy for them. So we are coming at this whole thing from completely different perspectives... I don't know why I blame them so much but I suppose I get angry with them for taking something for granted that I cannot get... 
I do blame God, if there is a God... another unfair one there I know... 

Oh gosh, you have given me so much to think about... thank you so much for posting Helen... I'm off for some serious head-wrecking self-therapy   

PS Editing to add... I read the line "I refuse to stop blaming because..." and my response is "it's easier for me to vent my emotions about everything I've been through by blaming myself and others..."  I think I need to start letting go. Thank you so much for helping me to see this. I'm trying so hard to be a better person and get over this... I can see how so much negative emotion does nothing but stunt us, destroy relationships and makes me an unpleasant person.  I refuse to be that unpleasant person


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## Rowan22

Interesting step, Helen, essential but probably incredibly hard to do. Lulub, I'm sorry your last tx didn't work out. It must be a horrible time for you. Owen, that is terrible news about your marriage! Was it the stresses of IF that finished it? That is cruel. Clomidia, you make some excellent points especially about not being consumed by negative emotions. The trouble is it's hard just to switch them off. 
As for me, I blame myself, furiously, primarily for not having a crystal ball and not having kids in my twenties. I didn't realise I'd spend most of my thirties being seriously ill and of course, I didn't feel ready in my twenties. I blame myself for all the choices I've made, even sometimes for going to uni because that was the time when a lot of my contemporaries had their families - but I didn't want one then. 
If only we could see ahead. We would live our lives so differently. 
I think a lot of it's about control, desperately wanting to control what is essentially uncontrollable and yes, feeling furious with other people who pop out babies with no trouble well into their 40s. You can't control your body, I found that out when I was critically ill; it controls you. And you can't always avoid the blows of fate. I remember reading a newspaper article by a young woman in her twenties who'd got her life completely planned out. So far, it had gone according to plan: education, marriage, babies... I don't think it works out like that for most of us. 
So what is left to live for when our own plans for our lives are completely wrecked? I don't know. We're all taught to plan, struggle and try to make things happen or get rid of things we don't want. Then we get stuck with something like this and we don't know how to deal with it. Or we end up with chronic illness. I suspect part of this is the western mindset, which suggests there's an answer to anything and you only have to keep fighting and you'll win. 
Something the Dalai Lama said comes to mind, that people in places like India and Tibet have an easier time accepting illness, etc than Westerners because their expectations are much lower. Food for thought perhaps?
Anyway, I'll keep reading this thread with interest, Helen! 
Take care, all,

Rowanxx


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## Montagne

Hi ladies

Helen, thank you so much for this latest step - I can relate to a lot of this, so will have a go.....

Owen, just wanted to say I'm sorry to hear your news - my thoughts are with you at this difficult time. 37 is still young - life may well take a more positive turn for you now my dear....

Having a few days off work while our garden is sorted out - it's lovely to chill out a little.
Hope you are all having a good week.

Hugs

S
X


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## Sunset

Hi Girls
As always your posts are very thought provoking.
Helen - you make some interesting points in your last 'step'....I guess I blame myself for being infertile.  In my head I know that my IF is no one's fault.  I know that I have a lot to be very happy/thankful for.
Despite that it makes me   
It's just so so unfair.  I feel guilty about the position in which I find myself.
I'm having a bad day - doesn't happen so often. 
I'm just not so sure how to get over this...I can't have children...does that make me any less of a person??  Like before in my head I know that's not true...just not sure I've convinced myself of that......yet
Going for a large bar of chocolate!!
xoxo


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## nbr1968

Helen, thank you for your positive post and optimism - I have not been on FF for a while - I am afraid that I have been feeling more isolated again and retreating in to myself, and when I read the posts when I click on "unread posts since my last visit" so many just do not apply to me anymore, when only two years ago they did! It makes me realise that I really am at the end of the road.

I wish so much that I could muster some energy to start to move forward - but I am still stuck - Step 4 makes sense - letting go of the blame and the anger that comes with it would truly help me - I can see that logically. But then my emotional brain kicks in and I just cannot seem to put into parctice what I know makes sense. I am "scuppering" my own recovery!

I am so sorry to hear other people struggling - Owen I am sorry that your marriage has ended in seperation - so much to deal with in addition to IF.  

Cloud, you are right that every cloud does have a silver lining - good/bad is all about perception after all - I just need to stop navel gazing and get with the programme as they say!

take care all

Nbrxx


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## owenl

Thanks to those of you who were thinking of me and my failed marriage.

The stresses of IF certainly didn't help my marriage.  I can remember a time when I was happy with DH whether we had kids or not, but we were turned down for adoption 4 years ago because of his past childhood history, and then we waited for 3 years for IVF and he began to spend more time on his own in the garden.  By the time we got to the top of the IVF list, our marriage was already in trouble, we weren't communicating much, there were no common interests and he wasn't making the effort to spend time with me + our love life had dissapeared.  We both decided a baby could maybe bring us closer together (stupid now I know as you need a solid relationship in the first place) but I was desparate to do anything to get us back on track and wanted a child so much.  After failed IVF then miscarriage it was like I woke up from a long sleep and realised there was nothing holding our marriage together even though I would have stayed with him without children if he had been prepared to work at it and go to counselling with me - sadly he wasn't.  

So now I'm trying to be positive, I'm going out more socially, building new friendships, going hill walking and looking at starting a new life without him when we get the house sold and I am no longer in limbo.  Now looking for a permanent job so that I will be able to get a mortgage when the time comes but jobs are few and far between so it's just so hard.

I have finally begun to grieve after failed IVF and miscarriages and Cloud you are right every cloud does have a silver lining and I do know that I am still young and there is time yet for me to meet that someone special.  It's just that at the moment it seems like a very long dark tunnel before I come out the other side with so many barriers to get through along the way and sometimes I struggle to feel positive about the future.


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## Every cloud....

Nice to hear from you Owenl, 

That long dark tunnel is not the best place to be but keep walking and you'll get to the sunshine. Keep moving and before you know it you'll suddenly realise that you've had a day without feeling blue or something will make you howl with laughter !!

You've lived one chapter of your life..it's down to you to write the next one and it can be what ever you want it to be.

Take care x


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## Clomidia

Hi everyone 
I'm so sorry to hear so many of us are struggling right now. I am thinking of you all and hoping for all of us that we get through this (we CAN get through it, we just need a little time...) 
I have woken up every day this week feeling miserable. I know it is stress at work but I hate waking up feeling sad.    It doesn't help that once I get this way I find it really hard to be positive about our IF.  My lovely friend had a baby last week and I just get teary thinking about it. I am happy for her, truly I am but I am so stressed right now I am resenting work... in that whole "if I'd had children I wouldn't be working right now" kinda way    Daft I know... 

This morning I forced myself to do half an hours exercise on the wii ... I'm not usually one for much exercise and I am the biggest I have ever been in my life (another thing I blame and berate myself for) But the half hour got my heart pounding, got me hot and bothered and actually made me feel better afterwards. So I'm going to try again tomorrow. Small steps, eh? 

DH came home with a bunch of flowers for me, such a sweetie, I really don't deserve him. 

Big hugs to you all... every cloud is right, we have got to think onwards and upwards... we are all here for each other. It is hard, no doubt about it, but we can get there


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## waywardstork

Hi everyone. 
Just found this thread and wanted to post a quick reply.  Helen .. what a fantastic idea to share the 10 steps with us as you read and digest them.
After 4 failed ICSI attempts, my DH and I are at the end of our biological baby journey.  I can't say that we are at the end of our jorney to 'have' a child as I would love to at least try to addopt.  I do feel though, that we (esp me) need to grieve and move on before even thinking about what next.
My DH has two grown sons from his first marriage ... a fact which brings him great joy ... but sometimes makes me feel isolated from my husband.  A sad thing to say, but after hearing a few of you say the same thing ... I don't feel bad about saying it.
At 40 and after 4 rounds of ICSI .... I can't do it any more.  I feel worn out.  I feel hurt to my core.  I feel angry at God.  I feel hopeless.  I feel life ahead of me stretching without meaning.  SOUND FAMILIAR?  

I am trying to move on.  I am trying to grieve without crying myself to a stupour.  I get up each day, get on with things, go to school (I'm a teacher - another cruel twist of fate!), love my husband and thank God for him ....  and all while I try NOT to think about what I can't have too much!

Do some of you feel like your time on TX has been one long grieving process?  I feel the weight of the last 4 years as a heavy burden.  I am determined not to feel that any more.  I can't have more treatment ..
-Not because we can't afford it (somehow we manged to scrape the funds together for our 4 treatments)
-Not because physically we can't - we could go on for years
-Not because the dr have told us not to
-Not because we don't want a child anymore ...

BUT because at some stage, everyone in our position needs to ask 'When do we give up?'.  My time is now.  I can't do it anymore.  I need to accept that I will never be pregnant.  Never decorate a nursery, pick out all the little things that a bub needs.  Never see a first smile, never see my husband in our child, never see myself in our child.  Never make my parents grandparents......  Those are the things that I have to accept.

so ... Helen and all the lovely ladies on here ....

Can I join you in your journeys to acceptance?

Much love,
Waywardstork
xxx


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## tisonlyme

hi all,

After reading waywardstorks post above i thought i would jump in and introduce myself as well.
I am unable to have a child due to cancer of the womb, my ovaries had to be removed as well due to risk of spreading so there is no chance for me.
DH has a daughter from a previous relationship who i love very much - i have been in her life since she was 2 so i have an excellent relationshiop with her but i am not her mum.
I was trying to explain to hubby today about how i felt as she was getting older that i felt our relationship was taking a different path wherby she is starting to distinguish our relationship as a 'step' relationship.  DH tried to say that its just teen hormones, and we nearly ended arguing cos he just doesn't understand how i feel.

It is a grieving process for me.  I can't have children because of some horrible illness that touch wood i will stay clear of.  Its not for lack of wanting or anything and i know as we look into surrogcay i may get the first smile etc, but i am grieving that i will never see a positive pg test, will never experience pregnancy and have my husbands hand on my growing tummy.

I am doing ok mostly good days with some bad thrown in, but it is like any grieving process which needs to be worked through.

So i will ask as well if i can join your journey

xx


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies, how are we all this eve?

Welcome to Waywardstork and Tisonlyme. Hope you find a little bit of comfort from this thread. The ladies on here, like yourselves have been to hell and back, but reading some of their comments, fills me for admiration for the courage which all these ladies have in bucket loads!!   

Well I've had a bizarre couple of weeks. Just when I thought I was ready to move onto Step 6, I had a number of serious set backs and ended up right back at square one!  

It started when my DH decided we'd go off to Rome for a few days, which would have been lovely but I spent most of the time wandering around the sights on my own ( he has a habit of walking on without me and going into his own little world) and had a little melt down one evening, when walking back from the Trevi Fountain. All I could see were the loved up couples holding hands or the young Italian families out for a stroll. I suddenly felt very old and lonely and the tears just started to roll. Of course my Dh couldn't understand why I was being so silly, but I just couldn't help myself.  

Then a few days after we returned from Rome, my friend called to tell me that she'd got tickets to a Big Brother Eviction night, and we just had to go!! Yes, sorry ladies, I've been a closet fan of big bro for the last ten years, but have never been to one of the eviction nights before. What should have been a fun night out turned into a bit of a nightmare. Why? Well because sods law states that 'when IF woman is stood in a crowd of over a 1000 people she will end up behind the only heavily pregnant teenager in the crowd and her monster of a mother!' I'm not joking, within five minutes the mother was threatening us that we'd better not push her precious preggers daughter. I tried to explain that we hadn't touched the girl, but was met with a scene out of Little Britain, with our very own version of Vicky Pollard! It went something like:

Me: We didn't push your daughter. It's a crowded place, we can't help it if there's some jostling.
VP: Did I say you pushed her?
Me:Er...
VP: Did I say you pushed her?
Me: Um..
VP: Did I say you pushed her, did I, did I, did I say you pushed her?
Me:.... actually yes, you did? And I'm sorry but if your daughter's pregnant don't you think it's a bit daft you being here?
VP: Are you saying she doesn't have a right to be here? Are you?
Me: No, I'm just......
VP: Are you saying she doesn't have a right to be here?
Me: No, I just don't think it's a good idea......
VP: Are you saying she doesn't have a right to be here. Are you? Are you saying she doesn't have a right to be here?
Me: No, I'm just saying if you're so worried about her being pushed she .....
VP: Are you saying she doesn't have a right to be here?

Well as much as I would have loved to carry on in this absurd conversation, I could feel my blood beginning to boil. Now I'm not a violent person, and I certainly would never deck a 40 year old granny-to-be, wearing knuckleduster rings with MUM carved out through them (oh the irony if I'd ended up with MUM scarred into my cheek) but I just couldn't take anymore. So at the top of my lungs I just turned to my friend and shouted:
    "OH MY GOD! YEARS OF FERTILITY TREATMENT, EIGHT DEAD BABIES, AND STILL I END UP 
    STANDING BEHIND MORONS LIKE THIS AT MY FIRST BIG BROTHER EVICTION. WHAT THE
    HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS WORLD?"  

Well my friend just looked horrified (she's never seen me vent like that), but it must have had an effect, cos although the woman glarred at me, she and her brat turned away from us, and didn't even bother organising a lynch mob to 'get me' at the end of the night. But I must say, it did surprise me, just how much anger and bitterness I obviously still have inside me. I said to my counsellor, if the daughter hadn't have been pregnant I never would have said anything, but it just made me so angry. Why? Cos she was about 17 years old (who probably got impregnanted by some spotty faced youth, who is long gone), the mother was a thug (when I think of what a brilliant grandmother my own mum would have made  ) and because the pair of them were more concerned about 'their rights to be there' rather than what was best for that unborn baby. Why is it that stupid, irresponsible people can whoop out babies like rabbits whilst the rest of us have to stand by and watch? Life is so bloody unfair!

So there you go ladies, this moving on with ten steps, does sometimes necessitate the need to jump forward two steps and then take one jump back. I'm going to keep working on it.

Helen xxx


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## brightspirit

Evening ladies and nice one Helen -made me laugh that'll teach you to be a BB fan what more can I say !! bet you feel bit better soon tho' it's good to vent your anger and frustration tho' it can be a bit scary when it happens.

We had an entertaining morning the other day my (very neurotic ) neighbour was trying to get my husband to clip our hedge in to a more exciting shape (he does a bit of scultpure) as she found the dome shape rather boring after quite a while my husband then says to her ok then take your top off and I'll do a more interesting shape then -(it was a joke !) after which we have been left in peace

...so sometimes you do just have to say it !!

  Keep up the journey all of you it does get easier and the sun will shine again


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## tisonlyme

Well, here goes with my own step one!
I will never feel the excitement of the positvie on the test
I will never tell dh that i am pregnant
I will never lie in bed talking to my tummy
I will never feel my baby move
i will never feel the joy of a first scan where i see my baby move and know that i amlooking after my baby inside of me
I will never give birth

The rest I may do if we try for surrogacy.


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## Rowan22

Helen, I just had to respond: been there with all those thoughts but I'm not as brave as you and couldn't say them!
I've also had to deal professionally with grubby little teenage mums and so has my husband. Yes, he's dealt with the 'how dare you say that, you'll hurt the baby!' type of rubbish. 
I try not to watch those sorts of programmes on TV anymore, for fairly obvious reasons, though I was impressed with one girl who was having her dead boyfriend's baby and displayed a maturity I wouldn't have expected in someone ten years older. The other girls, I'm afraid, have really or more or less confirmed the stereotype. 
Nature is a bit*h. 
Hope you're feeling a bit better for having let it all out! 
I happen to know something about most of those writers listed by Meredith and I know that Alice Walker has at times resented her only daughter because she interfered with her writing (something she admitted herself). I also know that Virgina Woolf wanted children and expected them when she got married, only to lose the chance, effectively, because of her bouts of mental illness. There's a sad entry in her diaries in which she comments that if she'd only had more 'self control', she might have had a boy and girl. With Jane Austen, of course, it was basically the lack of a suitable partner, especially as she was stuck looking after her sick mother a lot of the time. They made incredible contributions to the field of literature but at what personal cost? Also, yet again, men have never had to face this dichotomy; most writers, scientists, artists, etc  have been fathers. Darwin had about 10 kids, I believe. 
I'm feeling rather fragile at the moment and rather angry, about other things than this. My knees have hurt solidly for a month, as they have arthritis and didn't like our wet cold August. I also have other issues. My life isn't good, it's often a struggle to get through the day and I could do without platitudes. 
Tisonlyme, I am sorry to read your story. I hope your health is better now. If you're looking into surrogacy, I hope that works out for you. 
Good luck with the long, hard slog, everybody else. 

Rowanxxx


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## nbr1968

Helen - can I just say you are my hero for doing what you did - and for being so honest about your feelings I have quoted above - because I feel them every single god awful day that I am involuntarily childless.

I am sick to the back teeth of seeing parents/teenage Mums etc who seemingly are able to churn out child after child, who you see screaming obscenities at their children two inches from the little mites' face in public (so goodness knows what they do to them when they are in the privacy of their own homes?!), and who clearly don't realise what a privilege it is to be the one who can form the life of a young person and be their influence and teach them.

And then there are all you lovely ladies who would make fantastic parents but because of a cruel twist of fate cannot have them - and I weep - and I am angry.

Rowan - thank you for writing what you did - I am in awe of youyr knowledge about the particular women mentioned!

Meredith, I know you mean well and thank you for trying to be so positive, *but*....how can I say this? I don't mean to offend you or anyone, but I have to be honest. I like Helen, am just having one of those weeks! Make that years!

We all know there are some wonderful childless women out there in the World now, or who have been before us in history - and our logical minds tell us that of course there is more to our lives than being mothers. We all know that we can find outlets for our nurturing need in other ways.

*BUT*...and this is a *BIG BUT* _(excuse the pun, because I do have a big butt!) _- I can only speak for myself of course, but my emotional brain just looks at my logical brain and pokes out its tongue saying _"la la la, not listening not listening!"_ - nothing I can do or can think of doing can take away the pain I feel that I am not holding my son who should be one year old in 2 months. Nothing can take away the feeling deep in me that I want to hear the words _"Mummy" _from the mouth of my own child (I am afraid I am not one of those wonderful human beings who wants to adopt) - that will be with me until the day I die and I can honestly say that no amount of counselling will/has changed that.

I know that it is how I perceive what has happened to me that will make the difference - that I cannot change what has happened, but I can change the way I perceive it, and that I can "move on" from it and accept it, but comparing myself to another woman (famous or not) is not going to help me do that.

It helps to know that there is a sad sorority of fellow sufferers out there and that I am not alone, but ultimately I alone know the thoughts that are in my head as I close my eyes to sleep and there is not a day that goes by when I don't think about all my "lost babies" and lost chances and the fact that for so many people out there, having a live baby is the _*easiest*_ thing in the World and they don't even realise it.

*And *most of them don't torture themselves with treatments, and abstinences, and eating this and not eating that, and acupuncture and every type of hoodoo to do it! They may even get drunk, "baby dance" at any time (not just around ovulation), eat whatever they want when they want, and let's face it, when they see the two lines on the peestick, be disappointed not deliriously happy! And all of this may take them, say, three months to "achieve" not 15 years and counting!

Added to that this week there has been such a furore over the poor Hague's revelations and everyone saying that they should have kept quiet and "these things are too private" and I am left feeling that my IF and miscarriages and everything else is some dirty secret that I cannot be truly honest about my grief, and my (dare I say it?) anger about everything. And when I read what you (meredith) wrote I have to be honest and say it makes me feel inadequate and pathetic for not pulling myself together.

Bitter and twisted dear?, who me dear?, no dear!...how _very_ dare you!

I think I need to step away from the keyboard! Helen, for me it is one step forward, then fall backwards down a hill, keep rolling, then bounce down cliff ledge after ledge eventually lying in a crumpled heap at the bottom of a ravine, like a cartoon character!

Sorry ladies - I'm off to my darkened room now to be alone with my negativity!


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## helen6887

Oh Nbr - I hear what you're saying and I can feel feel every pain-ridden word.                          
Tomorrow will be a better day.

Helen xxxx


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## karenann

Nbr I am sending you massive hugs          - My heart goes out to you - you are not alone - I am thinking of you.

I have been silently reading the posts for a while feeling many of the same thoughts as you - feeling the guilt that I should be grateful for what I have etc.... I saw a GP recently (my own gp was on leave) the gp told me off for not doing anything about getting pregnant sooner 'why did you leave it so late' - then went on to tell me that theres more to life than children - she told my dh to take me away for 10 days then comeback and forget all about it !!!! 
I have had to wave a white flag today and have been to my own gp who has persuaded me to try antidepressants for a while.
My head keeps telling me all the rational stuff but my heart just isn't having it - I feel worthless I have booked a course and joined a reading group but it all feels pointless and empty. - I am angry my heart can't understand why I can't have my child here with me. Why can't I be a mother. Why can't I knit for my child ? - why can't I bake a birthday cake for my child ? Why does it hurt so much. 
Today I just don't know where to turn its my 16th wedding anniversary and I am sat here alone feeling useless and worthless.  My in-laws won't talk to me about infertility - they have never ever said a word to me about it - its like a secret disease -  they and my dh just see me as having a 'problem'
I don't want to appear as some negative sad old trout - I want to be able to post positive thoughts - I want to see a world beyond this pain and be able to help others Nbr who are in pain. I have nothing but admiration for Helen and Meredith and all you other ladies who are able to move forward and post such inspirational posts - Helen I wish I had your courage in shouting what you did. 
I am sorry I want to grateful that I am relatively healthy I know there are people worse off than me - I feel so guilty.
Sending you all hugs


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## waywardstork

Evening all.

Wow, feelings pouring out today!  BUT it is good for all of us to talk about how we feel.
We all have days when we get up and tell ourselves that we will be positive and productive and not think about being childless - be happy whatever the 'weather' ....
Other days it is just not going to happen.  

I think it will always be a burden some of us have to bear.  I, like Nbr and Karenann, don't think I will ever feel complete without being a mum.  How I get to be a mum, I am not sure ... but I cannot picture my life, my future without a child.  I was a single lady for a long time.  I had several boyfriends over the years, but only met and my husband and got married at 35.  I did not have the option of starting a family earlier.  I don't for one minute regret who I married (although a pair of working balls would have been a total bonus TMI,   ) and I don't regret the travelling and living I did while I was single, but if I could have met my husband when I was younger, that would have been the ideal situation. My career, although fulfilling in some ways, was never meant to be my focus in life.  It is a means to an end ... a way to pay the bills.  A way to pave the way for a stable family life for my husband and children ... But that's not how life has worked for me....

Today, at school, one of the TA's daughter brought in her 6 week old baby boy.  Man how cute and tiny.  I bend over the pram, said the usual pleasantries and walked away.  I can't do more.  I don't know if I will ever want to hold a baby again.  I absolutely dread the day that my husband's sons have their children.  How will I be happy for them (and DH) with a sincere heart?  I haven't held a baby for 4 years. Once before a tiny baby was brought into the Staff room at work and passed around  ..... as the baby got nearer to where I sat, I felt ill with dread at having to explain why I didn't want to hold this beautiful tiny little girl.  What do you say?  Sometimes I just want to say out loud, ' Sorry, but seeing your beautiful little baby makes my heart ache that I can't have one of my own.  Forgive me for not holding her, but I can't as I will fall apart!'  Anyone else feel like this too?

So ... NBR and Karenann .. don't feel bad that you cant see yourselves writing books or doing charity work to fill the hours and give your life meaning ... I can see that for me either.  How we cope, I don't know.  But I guess that talking about it makes us realise that somehow we will all get through it ... even if we have to crawl up that hill to stop from falling down too much!

Keep posting everyone.  Finally I feel like I have found a thread again where I feel like I belong.  My Clinic thread has become unsuitable as I'm no longer in treatment, and clearly I don't have a positive ... so now it's fab to find friends who say what I feel ... the good and the bad!

Have a great weekend everyone.
xxx
Waywardstork (guess I should change that to Lost Stork  )


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## Libran

Hello Ladies, and, in particular, a warm welcome to Tisonlyme and Waywardstork.  Helen, I think what you did at the BB eviction night was totally amazing    ! IF is so isolating, and, in this child centred world, we simply do not have a voice.  What Helen did was quite literally give us a voice and vocalize our pain and frustration.  Helen, we are so proud of you !
I am totally stuck.  I can't have tx, but can't seem to move forward either.  I think this board at least validates my feelings and lets me realise (a) I am not alone and (b) the feelings that I have are "normal" and I am not an evil monster.  I would certainly never be able to hold a small baby - that would be far too much for me to bear - but I have only recently come to understand that doesn't make me a bad person as such.  Like Nbr, I have become increasingly reclusive, but I think this is probably quite a natural reaction to such an isolating life experience.  We all deserve to hold children of our own, but life doesn't work like that - just because you deserve something, doesn't mean you get it    I know that the sadness and pain will never go away, I am just hoping against hope that as the years go by, I learn to live with it better.  It's great to know that you are all there, and I hope that in some small way, we can all support each other XX


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## Rowan22

Hi all,

Yes, this thread is a good place to express feelings - and boy, do we have a lot to express! I'm just discovering that furious exercise is a good way to get rid of anger! Sometimes I feel real rage and that's frightening. I feel as if I am going to explode. 
Waywardstork - or lost stork! - I have the same feelings. I am very creative in various ways but I didn't realise creativity was rationed and like you, I feel my life is incomplete without a family. I can't cope with babies, either, though I find small children the hardest as they're still enmeshed in that family unit and it hurts to see the parents playing with them, carrying them, etc. Older children are easier because they tend to be out on their own or in groups. 
Like you I didn't stand much of a chance, though it was illness in my case. I didn't marry early, either but the worst problem was that I spent about 15 years being seriously ill and have been left with chronic conditions as a result. Consequentally I feel I never stood a chance and there are days when I could tear my body to pieces in fury. 
The acute phase of the illness almost killed me. There are days when I wish it had. 
And yes, I'm a professional, I do a good job, I have a wonderful man in my life, etc, etc, etc but this isn't enough. And then I look at these wretched teenagers and despair. I didn't have a crystal ball. If I had, I might have had children then or in my twenties, as it was the only chance I was ever going to get. I didn't know that.  I did what I thought was right at the time, including being sensible in relationships and going to Uni. Of course I was wrong but how was I to know that? Life has a way of dealing you these sh*itty things through no fault of your own. 
What am I supposed to do with my nurturing instincts? Get a lap dog? I have always despised women who do that! And I do know that my dh would make a great dad, so that's another source of guilt and fury. 
I can imagine that you're finding your clinic's thread unsuitable now. I'd be the same.
In some moments, I imagine options, particularly donor egg IVF and I look at that board but we've no money and we just about manage to limp through the months financially. We'd need to win the lottery to stand any realistic chance.
It does annoy me that there's no help at all from the NHS, which just looks at my age and tells me to go away. No compassion or understanding of why I didn't have a family earlier, even though the doctors are staring at the screen with my medical history! All they do is hand out antidepressants, which I won't take.
I've become reclusive, too, very reclusive. I've hardly been out during the whole six week school holidays, because I can't face looking at everyone playing happy families (unhappy families is even worse!)
I have actually been in therapy a couple of times. I won't go into details on an open forum but just to say that it inevitably brought up a great many issues to deal with. The process isn't easy and there are times when I've just had enough of everything that life seems determined to throw at me. Like Libran and Nbr, I am stuck, completely and I've had enough of this agonising journey. 
Oh well, at least the schools go back next week!
I hope you're having a decent weekend. Karenann, I hope you got some pleasure out of your wedding anniversary. I agree about the feelings of hopelessness and this terrible desire to do what most other women are doing. In my case, it's the thought of never reading my children bed time stories that for some reason hurts most right now. And yes, I'd be quite happy to do the fraught pre-term uniform shopping along with all the other mums!
Take care, all,

Rowanxx


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## Clomidia

Hi everyone

Hi to tisonlyme and waywardstork. So sorry to read your stories, but thanks so much for sharing.  Waywardstork, I could so relate to so much of what you said.

I was really sad reading through these last posts; there is so much pain and heartbreak coming through so clearly, and I just want to give everyone a huge  - especially NBR and helen (what a nightmare you went through!) - but really to each and every one of us. None of us deserves to be here, despite what we might sometimes think or say. We none of us are bad people, we're not cruel or hurtful or mean, we are simply unfortunate, as trite as that sounds.

And we are all at different stages of our grief. We all have good and bad days. Just like helen I do sometimes feel I am going one step forward and ten steps back, but I have to keep telling myself that I AM getting better, and that things WILL get better. We get up every day, we get on with life. Yes, we have horrible, horribly sad days, but we also have moments of joy in our life - I hope?

I have to admit, I'm not that bothered by teenage pregnancies as I feel they don't know what their getting into, they're going to have to struggle to get by, in all likelihood, and their babies will probably have tough lives. I wouldn't want to be born into that kind of life so I don't envy them at all. But I do envy the lovely, happy, friends and family I have who are JUST like me, who have worked hard, have good relationships, have saved and scrimped to have a family, and then DO have a family. And plan kids. And plan more kids. It just blows me away! I just don't understand why my life is the same as theirs, but so very different. What did I do to deserve this?? But then, what did any of us do...  Ahhh I could drive myself mad going round and round in circles this way...

This week I held my friends' 3 week old baby girl. She fell asleep in my arms, cuddled in my chest. It was lovely. And it was heartbreaking at the same time. She was so tiny, and so fragile and I just looked at her and thought "I will NEVER have this. I will never know THIS joy, right now, with my own child". I may adopt, I hope we do, but I will never have a teeny, tiny newborn with that lovely smell, and that sweet innocence. That was hard. But I wanted to hold her. And it was lovely.

Two days later I was crying in the street because of something entirely unrelated and I knew, I really knew, it wasn't about the thing that happened that day, but it was more about the hurt I was carrying around after seeing that beautiful baby. It never, ever goes away, does it? I am also upset with my mum because I think she just doesn't GET what we're going through. She doesn't get it I suppose because she's never been through it (she said once she remembers how hard it was when she was ttc for 8 months.. lol!) but I expect more I suppose because she's my mother, for goodness sake... ahhhhh... deep breaths!!

Right now, though, at 37, I really feel I'm too old to be a mother. I know it sounds silly but I feel old, and that I wouldn't know what to do or where to start, and I probably wouldn't be very good at it now. I'm too set in my ways, too used to the life I have now. Perhaps I'm too selfish to be a mother now...

Gosh, I wish I could fix it for each and everyone of us to have our dreams in our arms.

I'm going to have to sign off now as my battery is low, but I wish you all sweet dreams, and better days to come. 
C

PS I am watching Extreme makeover Home Edition now and they are featuring a family who have adopted four disabled children from Kazacstan (sorry for bad spelling). This programme always makes me cry, but now I feel unworthy too!! 

PPS karenann, hope you did have a nice wedding anniversary after all 

EDITED TO ADD: I too am so upset with the coverage about the Hague's. I respect them for coming out and saying how hard it has been for them to have children (although I'm not a fan of him), but I am so angry that someone feels they have to come out and say this and be made to feel like it's a 'dirty' or 'unclean' secret. If only more people talked about the problems that exist when ttc... aggghhh!!


----------



## beachgirl

Clomidia    big hugs for being so brave cuddling the LO...xxx


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## Scouse

I don't know if I'm ready to post on here but want to agree with everything been said and empathy with all your pain.
Was about to tell all when my dh has just walked in with HIS 2 children! Will try to come back later but think I may have just found my 'new home'


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## waywardstork

Hi everyone.

Hope you have all had good weekends.
Mine was extremely busy.  Helped DH run his karting even at Buckmore Park on Saturday.  Manic ... with 80 or so participants.  All needing to sign in, pay, work out their team names etc.  Whew!  All went really well and everyone enjoyed the even.  Poor DH and I were shattered afterwards.   
Wanted to also say welcome to Scouse.  See by your ticker it is your wedding anniversary today?  Congrats.  Hope you spoil each other.

Spent the day with an old collegue (can never spell that word!) - lots of catching up.  About her life and mine.  So of course lots of talk about IF.  Good to chat about how I was feeling with someone not involved. She was very understanding and agreed with a lot of my feelings and made me feel that I wasn't daft for feeling them.  Good to share.

Well ... off to make some dinner and watch Home and Away!   

Have a good evening everyone. 
xxxx
Waywardstork


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## tisonlyme

hi all,
I'm doing ok at the mo - back at work now after smmer hols so no time to dwell.
Just wanted to pop on and say hi.
Big hugs to all  
charlotte


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## JennyR

Hello ladies,

I wondered if I could join you? No offence but I wish I didn't have to and I wish none of you were here either and this board didn't have to exist but such is life.

On Monday our ivf journey came to an end with our third and final bfn. Monday is not very long ago I suppose but it feels like the longest week of my life. I am overwhelmed with sadness. My heart hurts so much and I feel so numb. I've never felt pain like it. Both of us are sure that we don't want to do any more tx. We can't bear it anymore and from how the other tx s went we can't see the point as we have tried everything we possibly could. In a way there is a kind of relief that it is over but that doesn't help the pain I feel. We do hope to adopt in time but we need to get over this terrible disappointment first and this board seems to be the perfect place. Helen, thank you so much for setting it up. I've been reading all your posts over the last week and I have bought the book that inspired it. At least it makes me realise that what I am going through is completely normal because although the people around me have been incredibly sympathetic, without actually experiencing it they can never know what it is like. It is exactly what I need because although I know not having a baby will always be with me I don't want it to be painful for the rest of my life or make me bitter and resentful. I want to be able to deal with it and get on with life, even though it won't be exactly the life I dreamt of.

Anyway, I seem to have a bit of catching up to do on these steps, so here is my list for step one...

I will never....

feel a baby kick inside me.
experience child birth
know what it is like to be pregnant.
have the excitement of seeing a positive pregnancy test.
have a child that looks like me and my dh, shares our genes, our flesh and our blood.
choose a name for my child.
be a natural mother.
experience the amazing bond ant the instant and ultimate love people describe when they first hold their baby in their arms.
having the pleasure of making my parents as happy as they are when they are with my niece.
see my baby's heartbeat on a scan.
give my dh the ultimate gift by making him a dad.
have a big fat pregnant belly.
breastfeed my baby.
 Well thats my list. Although I've cried a lot this week, the list doesn't make me cry, it just makes me feel numb. I think that might mean that I haven't really truely accepted it yet. Maybe I need a bit more time before I try the next step. I'll read some more of the book and see how it goes.

Lots and lots of  to you all. This is so hard isn't it?

Jenny xxx


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## helen6887

Ah Jenny,

Your list made me cry!   

Welcome to the thread, I'm sorry you've got to this point, but I can say the women that post on this thread are amongst the bravest, strongest women you are ever likely to meet. 

Having only just completed your final IVF, I can imagine how raw the pain must me for you at the moment. It does get easier with time, but as you an see from reading some of the past posts, occasionally we all have relapses, or days when it's just so hard to cope.

We're all now on a new journey. It's a tough journey, but one that we can all get through if we get the right help and support. Learning to accept that our infertility is what it is, but that we still deserve full and rewarding lives despite our IF is probably the first positive intention we can make.   Jenny I'm glad you decided to join us, I do hope it helps a little bit.

Helen xxx

P.S    Hi to all the ladies out there. Step Six will be posted soon.


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## Montagne

Dear all

I have been reading your posts, but just haven't had the time to write anything meaningful lately - so preferred to save it up.

Wow, what emotions we have to struggle with hey ladies. I thought of you all last night as I spent the day with two of dh's friends and their families. One of them told me that Christmas was stuffed up since she is due to give birth on 22nd Dec. I then had to sit through birth tales and name choosing.......I actually found it amusing in the end to think that people can be so insensitive - I guess they just don't mean it - they don't realise.........ho hum.

I work with teenagers so have had to get used to the teenager thing too - one day I had a teenage "couple" who had been together for a week come and ask me advice as they were cotemplating having a baby.......!!!!!!! I had to call for colleague help with that one and sneak out of the room on another pretence!

This is the toughest journey and we mainly have to struggle in silence as society doesn't know what to do with our pain - it doesn't fit neatly into life's chosen path and therefore people just don't have the slightest inkling of how physical this pain can feel at times......

You are all such wonderful women and although I don't post often you keep me going - just knowing that there are others that understand this interminable ache inside. Boy do I wish we didn't have to share the journey, but it sure makes it easier to know that we do. The bravery and strength that comes through in all of your stories is remarkable and I think that we all deserve to find our way in this tough, tough life.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feelings ladies and thank you Helen for this wonderful thread.

We will all move forward in our lives and things will seem easier bit by bit.......

Stay strong all.

Love

S
X


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## owenl

I was doing so well, accepting my marriage was over, getting house on market, putting up with ex and his annoying habits whilst having to live under the same roof, finally having time to grieve for my miscarriage in May and the end of my IVF road, been feeling Ok around other people's children unless it's babies and then wham, I applied for a job at the Council as a School Administrator, got to the interview, the children were on their break and all playing outside, one child about 9 came up to me asked if I was a police officer and when I said I was there for an interviews he insisted on taking me to the main entrance so that I didn't get lost, he was just so cute, it made me laugh at the time and I got through my interview but afterwads I sat in the car and burst into tears that I wasn't going to be a Mum.  Didn't get offered it anyway but had thought when I applied that as it was looking unlikely that I'll be able to have kids now unless I meet someone else in the next couple of years who is very fertile and I conceive naturally then I thought I might like a job where I work around kids but now I'm not so sure


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## helen6887

Well done Owenl. You're really getting your life back on track.    Can't be easy still living with under the same roof as hubby whilst you're selling your home and separating. 

Take it from someone who works with kids, it can be tough, especially when you see a cutie-pie, like you did; or worse meet a crappy-parent who doesn't even deserve kids. I've had to cope with kids asking me why I don't have any children of my own, as well as telling me that I can go to hospital and get cured! LOL   I've also come across my fair share of really obnoxious, badly behaved brats, who have at times made me appreciate the fact that at the end of the day I don't have to go home to that! It's a difficult decision deciding to expose yourself to children day-in, day-out. You may find that by not getting that job you've done yourself a favour. Keep looking though, I'm sure something will come up. I too am in the process of job hunting, now looking into working with adults, teaching english as a foreign language. I want to limit my exposure to children, so that I can reduce those moments of crying in the car park.  

All the best,

Helen xxx


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## Clomidia

Hi everyone 

JennyR, welcome to our motley band - the thread no one really wants to be on    But everyone here is lovely really   Your list is so so sad sweetie. So sorry about your recent ivf. It's so hard those first few days but it does get better. I've been through two ivfs and I think you are so brave to go through three. I just couldn't take the pain of another one, not after IUIs and clomids and everything else, even though every now and then I think "what if". It's been a year since our last tx - almost to the day! - and it is still hard at times of course. Not as bad though, not as raw, but yes, it is tough sometimes but easier at others. We are seeing the sunlight sneaking through every so often and life is going ok. 

Owen, sorry to hear about your tears in the car. It is so hard isn't it? Big hugs to you. You have better good days than bad, just keep telling yourself it will get easier...   

Oh Montagne, I want to slap your friends for you!!! Grrr!    Well done for getting through it though hun. I think I know how you feel as dh and I spent Sat night with three happily married, babied up couples and I could only last so long before I had to ask dh if we could come home. It's just too hard putting up with all the chirpiness and kiddie talk etc etc Jokes about falling pg... gah I wanted to punch someone!!! Two couples had 3 kids and another had a bump... lucky [email protected] have no idea... honestly, no idea how lucky they are.   I'm ashamed to say I drank far too much alcohol when I got home and had the mother of a hangover yesterday (no pun intended!!) I thought I would at least make the most of my childlessness by lying in bed for hours and then having a lazy fryup on Sunday lunchtime... and think of them all up at the crack of dawn with armfuls of kids... lol!! 

Did you guys ever read Bridget Jones' diary? Do you remember the "smug marrieds"? Well, I think I am surrounded by "smug parents"   
Helen, how are things with you? I wish you luck with your job hunting...  

beachgirl, thanks for the hug    scouse welcome lovely      waywardstork, hope you had a less stressful weekend   
tisonlyme hello... 
Everyone else... big hugs and big hello


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## Scouse

I feel like I'm attending an AA meeting but for 'Childless ladies' rather than alcoholics.......... but I do feel embarrassed that I can't conceive! (angry, ashamed, frustrated, numb........ you all know the spectrum of negative emotions)
We've been thro 4 cycles and obvioulsy all ended with that dreaded bfn ( even tho on last one i was hospitalised with severe ohss and everyone kept saying this was a good sign)
I too work with children and got our last bfn a week before I should have gone back to work - still haven't gone back!  Saw gp today, my blood pressure is high and my morale is low!
Altho I'm slowly coming to the idea that our treatment journey is over, I'm still not at the point where I can write my list!
Sorry for no pesonals but at the moment I'm struggling from day to day and this seems the first step to facing facts and moving on!
I wish everyone a 'happy and fulfilling future' - whatever it may hold X


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## JennyR

I've just spent over an hour writing the longest post ever and then when I pressed spell check it disappeared ! Ahhhhh I haven't got time or inclination to rewrite it now but thank you all for your lovely welcomes to me and sorry to those who I made cry! 
As a synopsis:
Scouse/Monatgne/owen1 lots of hugs
Helen - I'm an esl/efl teacher - ask me if you need advice on this
Clomidia - I remember you from another board iui/jessops?? Glad there is sunshine - it gives me hope!


Maybe its good for you that it disappeared - it was the longest post ever and would have probably bored the pants off you all!! 
Wll post stage 2 sometime  soo - still working on it.

Jennyxxx


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## Scouse

Jenny what a wonderful thing you are about to embark on........ volunteering yourself is very brave and selfless!


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## JennyR

I'm afraid it is not selfless at all!! We decided if the last tx didn't work we needed a plan B - something we could really look forward to and would take the edge off the disappointment. We're both teachers and I've wanted to volunteer teach in Africa for ages. We will be helping others but I think the trip is going to equally help us put what we have been through into perspective and help us realise that we still have a useful place in this world. That's the plan anyway. After 3 months without electricity or running water whilst living in a hut one and half hour's trek from the nearest dirt road, I may have a different opinion!! Fortunately I've got an understaning boss who said I could have 3 months off work although she doesn't yet know that I'm leaving on Oct 7th as she's been on annual leave since before my bfn. I guess its too late if she's changed her mind as the plane tickets are bought!


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## beachgirl

Wow, Jenny, I've been looking into volunteering too, There's the book bus that looks amazing and I'd love to help but sadly can't take more than 2 weeks at a time off work and currently don't have the funds either...so I'm planning to do some volunteer work near home for local companies..it's amazing how many people are needed when you start looking.


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## waywardstork

Hi everyone.  Hoope your week is going well ... almost over.
Been home today, had hair cut, done some tidying up, cleaned the pond filter (augh, pukey, horrible job!!!)!
Now sitting in front of the TV watching some tv movie - gotta love hallmark movies!
Clomidia - YES to Bridget Jone's 'smug marrieds'  .... you made me laugh ... I've thought that very same thing many times ... smug parents, smug expectants,  LOL!     
I've said to my DH that Helen Fielding should write another Bridget Jones book about becoming parents ... and have them have IVF ... and smug parent dillemas!  Would be a good book!
Anyway ... not much from me really.  
Just letting time pass for now ... standing still regarding our future, but letting the past slip away slowly, taking some of the hurt and pain with it.  That's the best we can all do while we cope with what fate has dealt us.

Owenl - keep your chin up.  Hope you find a job that will keep you focussed and happy soon.   

To everyone else in our AA (or CA - Childless Anon) club  ...    

xxx
waywardstork


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## Juby1

Hi Everyone,

I am at work and so have only had time to read the first few posts, but I just feel complelled to right, as so much of what I have read already strikes a cord. My DH and I will have been ttc for 7 years this Christmas. We were childhood sweethearts and married when I was 23 and he was 27. All our friends when we were younger were so envious of our relationship. We were, and thankfully still are, very much in love, but the last 7 years have taken there toll. We have only had one round of IVF, earlier this year which resulted in realy M/C, but have had a miscarriage before that and it is believed I have possible chromosonal or immune problems. We were going to have a round of treatment at the ARGC, but it is too expensive and I work f/t. Also we both feel exausted and want to get off the o so painful IF treadmill. We have therefore taken the decision to adopt. At first I was relieved - elated even - but when on holiday in Spain last week, all these emotions starting coming to the surface about my m/c and I have realised I have not dealt with my grief and nor has my husband. The pain is so deep it is almost unbearable. I feel torn between adoption and trying to concieve again. I don't want another round at the Oxford Fertilty Unit again, as they didn't test for / address the problems I suspect I have. I knew it would end in m/c, but they woudn't listen and as mentioned ARGC is not an option at the moment.

In stronger and happier times, adoption is somthing I wanted to do, as well as having a biological child, and I still believe it is the right path for us, as does my DH. But how to I move passed this grief that I am feeling at the prspect of not having a biological child? I have to let go becaise I am emtionally and physically exausted after 7 years of trying, but at the same time, that 'letting go' has opened up a black hole of grief that is so deep that I feel it is overwhelming me.

In the past I used to be proud of who I was. I had an enthusiasm for life that those close to me said was infectious. I used to feel kind and open and compassionate. Now I feel tired and angry, angry angry. I don't want to be bitter and I know I'm not ready to adopt all the time I am, but I don't know how to stop feeling this way.

To Helen and all those ladies who have posted - I have only real a couple of the posts, and will read more tonight over a large glass of wine! - but thank you. You have provided incredible support on here for so many women.

Sorry for the rant!

Love a very overwhelmed Juby


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## waywardstork

Hi! Evening all.
Just wanted to welcome *Juby*!  You are not alone. We all feel the same - angry and deeply hurt. BUT, we are trying to work through it together and find our old happy selves.  
We look forward to getting to know you too.
xxx
Waywardstork


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## Juby1

Hi Waywardstork,

Thanks for your lovely welcome. I felt better yesterday, just for writing that post. It was good to get it all out. 

It was really interesting to read about some of the volunteering that ladies are looking at doing. I suppose when you think about it there are so many possibilities aren't there? You get so used to being on a set path, or going down the same route as your family and friends, but when things don't go as you planned, I guess you have to step back and say, ok, now what?!!

Hmmmm ... definately food for thought  

Juby xxx


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## JennyR

Hi All

Welcome Juby!!    I understand exactly. It is a really awful thing to go through isn't it? And it's just so unfair. Like you I feel really angry and frustrated. Why can people who are absolutely useless parents have so many children when people like us who would be amazing parents are denied the chance. Where is the justice in that?    I'm bitter at the  oment but I don't want to stay that way which is why I'm working through the 10 steps. I really hope it will work though I can't imagine it will take all the pain away. My heart hurts so much at the moment. My body feels like I've gone ten rounds with Mike Tyson. I just feel so battered by the whole experience. Like you we want to adopt in the fture but we need both need to heal first. I completely understand why they say you should wait 6 months after ivf before trying for adoption. I just hope 6 months is enough. We have decided for certain we don't want to do any more tx. I think its a difficult decision and its something very personal. For us it felt that we had to be certain because we didn't want to be thinking 'what if...' in the future. Going through all the tx was hell but we are certain now at least. I have had a few moments of thinking 'maybe one more try' but I know I couldn't bear it and I'm not sure my relationship could and that is the most important thing. Anyway, whatever you decide,  hope this board will help you.

Waywardstork - your third Bridget Jones idea sounds great. Maybe we could write it between us - though there may be some issues with copyright!

Beachgirl - there are loads of volunteering opportunities you can do in this country around work time. I'm a volunteer trainer and co-ordinatr for a charity. I train volunteers how to teach English and they go to people's homes and teach aslyum seekers/refugees etc who can't go to a class due to health problems/children etc. Lots of my volunteers work full time. You can find lots of info at doit.org and also your town might have a Voluntary Action office that will give you advice about the opportunities. When I get back from Madagascar I want to do some volunteering in the UK with kids. It might help fill a gap left by IF to a small extent (one of the steps in the book I think?) and it'll be good experience for adopting in the future.

Ok I'm going to post this before I carry on as I don't want to lose everything like last time Grrrr!! I've got my Stage 2 to type up and its quite lengthy sorry!! I'd advise just skimming!! I might need a cup of tea before embarking on it as I'm a one finger typer (almost)

Lots of    and    to everyong in our CA group!

Jenny xxx


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## JennyR

Well afm, as I said I'm angry frustrated and really hurt. The injustice seems unbearable. Of the 10 ladies I shared my tx journey with 8 of them got bfp's. I'm not saying they didn't deserve it, they really truely do but with such good odds why did I have to be one of the bfn's? I had to go to DH grandma's funeral at the weekend. Obviously it was really sad because it was a funeral and DH's grandma was a really great lady but it was also really hard as all I really want to do at the moment is hide away. I go to work and just about survive the day on auto pilot before coming home and crying my heart out but to spend a whole weekend socialising with in-laws was exhausting. Also my MIL's friend came up to me in front of a room full of people to tell me she really felt for me and that everything would be alright in the end. She was being really kind and she has suffered from IF herself though she eventually got the baby she wanted, but I just went to pieces. It was awful. DH was somewhere else, the room was full of people and I couldn't escape because the hall was full of people too so I just had to sit there trapped and cry my eyes out. The thing is that I just can't imagine at the moment that it is ever 'all going to be alright.'

Anyway, Stage 2, I've got to go to work soon so I need to get a move on....

Understanding The Loss: Reasons For Wanting A Child.

On occasions during the last 4 years I've asked myself why I am doing this because maybe I'd be better off without kids why do I really want them anyway? Do I want them so much that its worth going through the hell of all these examinations tx's and emotional turmoil?I never really came up with a good answer because I think having children is not something you think about in detail its just a natural instinct so this stage was really difficult for me to answer and the sections might be a bit mixed up but here is my attempt:

Psychological Reasons:

It is something innate in women to want children. Its basic biology - if women didn't want children the human race would end so its part of my biological make up to want a child. If I can't have one which I can't, then that innate need is unfulfilled and so I am missing a vital part of who I am as a woman and a hunman being. When a woman doesn't want children that's different because she has chosen to defy her natural insticts or maybe they weren't there in the first place but I didn't even get the choice, I've been denied the chance to do something that should be part of my natural make up so I've lost an essential part of who I should be. Is this pshycological? It might be physical but anyway..
I( wanted a child because I wanted to be able to show my child how beautiful the world is. I would have taught her the names of all the trees and flowers, I would have taken her for walks up hills and mountains. I wanted to stay at home with her and paint pictures, sow seeds in the garden and bake cakes. I wanted to teach her everything I know and more than that I wanted to instil in her an inner peace and confidence that pehaps I lack. I wanted her to be clever, wise, confident, generous, happy and beautiful. Perhaps this is a tall order but I would have happily compromised! Most of all I wanted to give her all the love I have for her.

Social Reasons:

It's expected isn't it? When you are not married, everyone asks, 'when are you going to get married?' As soon as you are married/have a partner, everyone asks. 'When are you going to have children?' After 4 years of marriage people ask less and less but when you meet somebody for the first time they always ask 'Have you got children?' or even worse, 'How many children have you got?' because they assume its only natural that you will have kids.How am I going to answer that question now without crying and without it causing so much pain? 
So its' socially expected because its the natural way of the world. That's what people do when they get married/ a partner. Women become mothers but I can't so I'm a social misfit. I've never felt that I fit in completely and this is another reason why I won't fit in. I've failed.
So now I can never be part of that sisterhood who talk about childbirth, nappies, breastfeeding, which school to send their children to etc etc. I'm not qualified to take part in those conversations which are ubiquitous to all women my age. So I lose out again. Instead whenever I'm witness to these converstions I will feel the pain of my loss and I will have to suffer the mothers' pity, platitudes and uncomfortable responses when I say no, unfortunately I don't have any children.

Existential Reasons:

I think I've got a pretty good life - I've got a reasonably fulfilling and satisfying job, I've got a solid marriage and a fabulous husband, I've got lots of hobbies and activities to fill my time and I've got some very good friends. But a girl can always want more! And having a baby is really the ultimate meaning of life, isn't it? To reproduce, to carry on the generations of my family, to contribute to the continuityof the hman race. I've lost my chance to do this and maybe that will mena that all the other parts of my life will be tainted by this loss. Will there always be an element of disappointment and dissatisfaction in everything I do because of this failure?

OK, That's my stage 2. Its a bit waffly and probably doesn't answer the question really. Basically I want a child because I just do. I think its a hard thing to explain. Anyway, Stage 3 sounds like even more of a challenge .. ' Surviving the loss' I'm not sure I'm ready for that. Everytime I think of what MIL's friend said about everything is going to be all right I cry because I just can't imagine it is. But maybe that means stage 3 is exactly what i need.

Anyway, I've got to go to work.

Love to you all.

Jenny xxxx


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## Montagne

Hiya ladies

Welcome to Juby and thank you to Jenny for sharing your reasons for wanting a child - very eloquently put - I found myself identifying with your emotions.......I too feel left out of the sisterhood - although as I read your post it made me realise that we are a sisterhood of our own - a special, select sisterhood that has endured far more than we should have had to.

Clomidia - yes, smug parents indeed - it's so hard to endure such evenings isn't it? You are very strong to have got as far through the evening as you did. I just have to keep telling myself that people really are clueless and it's not their fault - if they knew how they hurt us, they surely would watch their words more carefully. It's incredible to think people were cracking jokes about being pg in front of you - do they know your situation?

Waywardstork - what a good idea - Bridget Jones the third - I think we would have enough material between us to fill several books......

Scouse, hope you are managing to get through the days OK. Keep on putting one foot in front of the other - you will feel stronger and stronger.....

Libran - I can feel the pain in your post and it is the pain of all of us on this board in one way or another - if only i could find a magic wand to swish away that pain for each and every one of you strong ladies.

Rowan - hugs - in fact hugs to all - to Helen to Charlotte to Meredith to Beachgirl and to each and everyone of you, your posts wrench my heart and they are making me feel angry that we have to live through such pain.........

Ownel, you are doing a fantastic job of picking yourself up and I am in awe of your courage......

Sorry to anyone I have missed out, take care all and stay strong.

Love

S
X


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## beachgirl

Morning, just back from a lovely few days in Scotland and the Isle of Mull....didn;t feel at all the odd ones out not having children as there were hardly any people around..maybe that's the solution, move to a dessert island...x


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## Sunset

Hi
Just heading to work...I should be getting ready!  Another friend announced that she is pregnant.  I'm delighted for her and her husband.  But I'm ashamed to say I'm jealous.  It will never be us.  Why?  

xo


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Hiya,

do you mind if I throw my hat into the ring, as it were?
After 4 miscarriages and 7 years of Unexplained Infertility, I'm having to face the very hard and upsetting fact that we are likely to remain childless.
Now all i have to do is work out how the heck I'm going to cope with that fact 

Tamsin
xx


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## JennyR

Aftenoon ladies,

Tasmin, Welcome to the board.    I'm really sorry to hear about your m/cs. Like the rest of us, I'm sure you don't want to be here really but in the circumstances, its a great place to start trying to work out how to cope with things because that's what we're all doing. I hope it helps.

Sunset -    to you too. I think maybe that its ok to be jelous - its certainly understandable and personally I'm jelous as hell of anyone who has kids / is pregnant. I reckon if you are happy for them as well as being jelous it must be ok?? I'm no psychologist but I can't imagine a time when I'll ever not be jelous.

Beachgirl - Glad you had a good holiday. Bet it was relaxing. I've not been to Mull but I've been to the Ilse of Harris and that was very chilled. Maybe we could all set up a CA commune/retreat on Mull.

Montagne - you're right about our sisterhood - and its a very positive way of looking at things - thanks for that.

Afm - things aren't particularly getting easier yet but hopefully they will with time. Between work, preparing for Madagascar and sorting out my house for the person who is moving in for 3 months I don't have too much time to dwell on things at the moment but its with me every waking (and probably sleeping) moment, my heart still feels as if its broken and I cry most days (although I have had a few tear free days recently so maybe things are getting better) I'm completely exhausted from all the emotions. This weekend we went to visit my family. Watching my husband read a story to my beautiful 3 yr old niece was so incredibly sad. He would make such an amazing dad and I just wished with all my heart that it was our daughter he was reading the story to.   

Anyway, lots of     to you all.

Jenny xxx


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## waywardstork

Hi Ladies.
just got back from a stressful, tiring, but ever so rewarding 4 days in Belgium. My DH just completed a cycle trip from Bexleyheath to Brussels to raise money for Cancer Research and another children's charity. 
Have a look at the link ... it was filmed by the Brussels TV station crew who joined us on the police escort into Brussels....
http://www.tvbrussel.be/video/4/bobbys-fietsen-naar-brussel-voor-het-goede-doel
We got back on Tuesday evening - absolutly exhausted. DH cycled, I was support crew - but that was no holiday, I tell ya! Not sure how much the group raised .. will let you know when I find out. 
DH loveed it, so guess we will be going again next year. 
Otherwise, been busy .. putting certain things to the back of my mind for a few days. 
Welcome to our newbies ... glad our little band is growing.  
xxx
waywardstork


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Hey waywardstork,

Just watched the video clip - cool. Which one was DH?  Good luck with raising your funds
Are you from Bexleyheath?

Tamsin
xx


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## JennyR

Wow, waywardstork, that does look amazing. How far did he cycle?

Jenny x


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## waywardstork

Hi Ladies,

Tamsin: no, we are from Kent.   
Jenny:  he cycled 195 miles!  DH has the blue water bottle on his bicycle - he's the first one you see. 

Feeling a lot more rested now.  Just trying to tackle to pile of dirty clothes after the 4 days away.  Been a busy few days at work since I got back too.

How are you all?
xxx
Waywardstork.


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## helen6887

Evening ladies,

So sorry haven't posted for a couple of weeks, been so busy. Had two job interviews over the past two weeks, and got offered both jobs!!!  Both are for part-time posts at two different FE colleges so have decided to take both! Will keep me very busy, but think that's a good thing eh?

Can see from all your posts, that many of you are keeping really busy too and think that's the key to staying sane, when you're dealing with IF eh? I know my counsellor says it's dodgey to suppress your true feelings, but sometimes you can only handle the pain in small bite-size chunks and if keeping busy takes your mind off it, for just a bit, I say that's a good thing.

Step 5 and 6 of our programme (yes Scouse, it is like an AA step-by-step programme isn't it  ) are very similar, so I'm putting them together.

*Step 5 and Step 6.*
The author (Linda Hunt Anton) starts this section by reminding us that 'no man(or woman) is an island, entire of itself'. She points out that one of our great strengths as women is our need for other people, for understanding, support, wisdom and perspective. This of course is a good thing, but for many women IF is not something we find easy to share with others.

We are of course all sharing our experiences on this website, but that's because I think we need something more than sympathy for our plight, we need real empathy! And you can only get that from another woman who has gone through the same experiences as we have.

Like many of you, I don't really share my true feelings with my family and friends, not even with my DH. I guess there's such a huge feeling of vunerability that I'm scared that they'll not really understand what I'm going through. As far as my friends and family are concerned my fertility treatment is over, I'm never going to have kids, so I just have to get on with it. They don't really understand that it's a work in progress. Some days are bearable, some aren't. After my miscarriage in 2008, I really became very withdrawn. It sounds bizarre but I genuinely thought that my pain was so deep and severe that if I let anyone 'look upon it' they would instantly shrivel up in a fire ball!  Yep, it was a really low time, as you can see.

Then again, we've all experienced the tactless relative or friend, that makes stupid comments or thinks that shoving their own baby onto you, will make it all better. It's the fear of these peoples reactions that in the end stop us from expressing how we really feel, and instead we just avoid any contact with said person.

It pays to have a few comments up your sleeve for when you're suddenly caught off guard with a tactless comment, or even just the dreaded question 'do you have children?' These are some of my best responses:

'No, but I have a very demanding dog.' Then I get the photos out of him! Haha.

'No, sadly I don't.' - this is a good one for those that think that would judge you for choosing not to, when you know that you never had that choice.

'Not that I know of...' well men can say this and appear as some hot young stud, so why can't we.

'Well actually I don't have any, how about you?' Good one for deflecting any further questions.

And my all time favourite for really nasty comments from thoughtless people 'No I couldn't take the risk that I would end up with a little ********* like you!' Only to be used under conditions of extreme stress. 

Well Step 5 and 6 obviously stresses the importance of talking about IF (it really shouldn't be treated like our dirty little secret, should it?). I think it's like 'death' in that people don't really know what to say so they avoid the subject. But for many women it actually helps to talk about it. 
If like me, you can't really find an empathetic friend or your DH doesn't want to talk about it anymore, then you need to find other support networks.

Get a counsellor - I made full use of the NHS counselling service offered during my IVF treatment, and was lucky in that the counsellor didn't drop me just because my treatment was over. She 's allowed me to continure with the sessions even though our last treatment ended in May. I would also mention that when I went to my GP for depression a few years ago, they were really keen to get me counselling rather than opt for the 'pill' route. If money is an issue (and yes for most of us it is) go through your G.P. and be honest as to your level of depression and suffering. I must say as well, that mentioning the big S word really got things moving.

Get into a support group - obviously fertility friends is my favourite, but I've also joined the 'more to life' support group as well. This is especially good if you don't have many childless friends, and can't bear to be with them when they're harping on about their kids all the time. I want to organise a meet up with you guys in the near future. It's on my list of 'must do's'.

Religion - I know for many people, having a faith can bring them a lot of comfort in times of trouble. I must be honest infertility has actually made me question my faith, and it has probably been a hindrance rather than a help. Whilst I loved the well-meaning Christians at my church that tried to offer me advice and platitudes to help with my situation, they really didn't understand what I was going through, and I ended up resenting the fact that I was expected to teach Sunday School to their children week after week. I was expected to sit back and hear them preach that children were 'God's blessing', knowing that for some bizarre reason God had excluded me from this particular 'blessing'. I don't go to church now, and my relationship with God is very tenuous, but if you're one of these people that get comfort from your faith, then 'milk it' for all it's worth.

Role models - you may not know it, but many of you women are proving yourselves to be fantastic role models to the rest of us. It helps to know that other women have faced adversity and come through it. I've got a sister-in-law that has been through a similar situation, she's in her 60's now. Initially I was wary talking to her about IF, cos I didn't want to rake up painful feelings for her. But after the last IVF she called and we had such a good chat on the phone. She really opened up to me about what she had been through. Stuff that even her own brother (my DH) didn't know, and I think it really helped me. She has a really full and varied life. She looks fantastic (she was an air hostess, and is still very glam) and she actually says that not having children has kept her young. It wasn't her choice, but she's really made the best of her life, despite IF. She is a true role model. If you don't have one, pick any of the fab women on this site, and make them your role-model.

Of course there's a whole load of books, retreats, workshops and seminars. I'm waiting for Meredith to run her next workshop, cos I definately want to be there. I'd also like someone to organise a memorial service of sorts for all our lost babies (and yes I do include lost embies in that). As I'm sure Meredith would agree, having a ritual of some kind is an important step in moving on. I'm not really ready to organise my own memorial service, but I'd be there in a shot, if someone else did.

Ok so thats Steps 5 and 6. Food for thought eh? Sorry I haven't had time to do personels tonight, but I've enjoyed catching up on all your news. Keep it up.   

Helen xxx


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## JennyR

Hello All

Helen, congratulations on your new jobs! 2 in 2 weeks is pretty good going! What are the jobs? 

Also, thanks for sharing your next steps, I agree that it can be really hard to share feelings with people who haven't been through the same thing. Both our famillies and my friends have been really understanding and supportive, especially since our last bfn - I think my miserableness and outbursts of tears meant they couldn't escape from how it affected me. But I feel that I can't keep harping on about it because I think people expect you to get on with life pretty quickly and don't want to keep hearing reruns of the same old woes. That's probably just me being paranoid but I do feel I have to put on a brave face so as not to turn people off (and also so as not to worry my parents) It's a difficult one cos in some ways I think putting on a brave face will help me feel better sooner but I also really worry that I'm rushing through this grieving process and if I don't do it properly (whatever that might be) it will all erupt and become messy some time in the future. My dh says it probably will anyway so not worry but I'm a born worrier!!! 

Helen, funny you should say about a memorial service because we just had one of sorts this evening. I decided a while ago that it's something I wanted to do. I had a general idea about it and also say Meridith's post on the subject and the counsellor I saw mentioned it too. Anyway, we bought a 'coffin' ( a pretty box from tk max) and we wrote lots of messages to 'our child' which we read out and then put in the box. Reading them out was really hard for me and DH and we both cried lots but maybe that's a good thing. We also put in a Japanese fertility message my dH had been given and the photos of our embies. Then we dug a big hole in the garden and buried it. On top we planted Iris bulbs as DH's grandma who died the same week of our bfn was called Iris.
This was my Stage 3 of acceptance and although it was emotional reading out our messages it didn't give me the release I had expected so I was left feeling a bit disappointed to be honest. I think I'm a bit like that really and if I build something up too much then it never lives up to expectations or maybe itwas just my way of releasing all those sad emotions. It just kind of felt like there should have been more to it to mark its significance but then again it would have been a bit awkward to make it into a ceremony with all the neighbours potentially watching! I think I was just expecting it to suddenly change how I feel. Sorry, I'm a miserable cow aren't I?! Don't let me put anyone off doing something similar, it was really important and helped a lot to read out those messag. Anyway, I think if someone put on a formal memorial service I'd be up for coming along to that too.

Anyway, with regards to stage 3, I think I do already accept that I'm not going to have a child naturally. I did dream the other night that I was hoping that it would miraculously work so maybe somewhere in my sub- conscious I'm still hoping for that miracle. But apart from that I don't think I am. I know we've done everything we could and it didn't work so its not going to now and I don't want to suffer anymore disappointment. I know life can still be good and I really hope we can adopt in time. Its really really unfair that we can't have our own natural child but I also am a firm believer that things happen for a reason and even though I don't know what that reason is now, it will come in time.

Well ladies, I must go. I ran a bath half an hour ago and it'll be going cold. On Thursday I'm off to Madagascar for 3 months to teach in a primary school. I'm hoping the trip will adress some of the other stages in the book. Even though I'm all packed, I still can't quite believe it. There is no electricity where I'm going so you might not hear from me until January but I'm hoping that we'll get the occasional weekend off to go to a nearby _town where I'm hoping there might be an internet cafe. So I might be able to post sooner but if not, take care everyone, thank you so much for your amazing support, its been really important to me, I'll really miss you all, oh and Happy Christmas!!!  (am I the first one to say that this year?)_

_Love and positivity  _

_Jenny xxx_


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## Scouse

Jenny I found your last post the most moving of all!  Messages to our babies   
I always feel that our grief / loss isn't as 'real' or genuine as those who have suffered m/c and never being pregnant I can't compare.
BUT I do know the agony of getting numerous bfn's and saying goodbye to so many embryos/ babies-to-be. But they were our babies and we do suffer and grieve.
I think we need to accept that before others begin to realise the pain we suffer!
Sorry if that sounds over dramatic to anyone, but that's how I feel at moment and that's why I'm struggling to get back on my feet!
But Jenny wanted to wish you and dh a safe journey, a wonderful experience and Nadolig Llawen(Merry Christmas) 
Everyone else, chins up, best foot forward and stay strong!


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## karenann

Thanks to Helen again for the continuing steps and inspiration. It has certainly helped me to follow your posts and advice
I really like the replies to that awful question 'do you have children' - Its the one question I dread when meeting people. I especially liked the last one - have had a couple of encounters when that would have been useful  
Congratulations on the jobs wish you luck with them   

Jenny - Your post was very moving - thank you for sharing your memorial - It sounded very touching. It is something that I feel I might find helpful - I know dh won't want to - but I have reached that point where I have accepted that I will never have a child   
Enjoy your teaching experience in Madagascar -  Good luck and Take Care - Happy Christmas  

Scouse - I think your pain and grief is just as real and genuine. I have been through the pg and m/c's and it is devastating   but I do not feel that it is any less genuine than all the lovely ladies who have suffered the numerous bfn's and who have had to say goodbyes to embryo's.    For several reasons I never got to go down the IVF route - but I admire all those that go through it. All our  pain and grief is genuine - we are all suffering from huge losses - they were our babies   
I am sending you big hugs.   
Stay strong !


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## SuzanneM

Hello Helen

I do not come on here that much - I guess trying to cope - but just of late, it has been HORRIBLE.  I have read your list and to be honest, reading it just made me feel even worse!  I know that I will never be a mother - otherwise it would not hurt so much seeing others in this situation.  What I have thought of doing - have not started yet  . is a list of the negatives of being pregnant and having children.

Recently, we had some friends who stayed with us and they have 2 boys.  What a mess those children are!  So rude and undisiplined.  Amazingly, mum allowed me to "intervene" when necessary.  Of course my thoughts are: why are you not doing the job you should be doing?  It was I that taught the younger one to either eat all his food and enjoy pudding or at least sit at the table a wait until everyone has finished and ask permission to leave the table!  He learned fast, but I made the mistake of saying: why don't you ask mum?

I feel exactly as you do with seeing other women happily carrying their "bumps".  I could scream at their sheer smug faces.  

Helen, I am a christian, one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and know there is going to be a time when I will be a mother, but obviously my faith is not strong, because I cannot feel this at the moment.  At our hall, we have 7 pregnant sisters.  I recently ruined a wonderful wedding invite because of these sisters there and then another one came up and happily shared her news of being pregnant too!!!   I am supposed to be going to a meeting this evening, but cannot cope with the emotional upheaval.

Like you, I HATE myself for not being the kind of person I could be.  I have been married for 19 years and 18 of those, lived with the knowledge that we could not be parents naturally.  I am so angry with myself for never changing how I feel.  I have had PLENTY of time to get used to it!  But it is as fresh to me as if it were today we were told.  Please don't see this as doom and gloom for you; we are all different.  I have already a horrible jealous streak in me, so this just overwhelms me.

I pray to my heavenly father so often, to help me cope.  For the most part I do, but of late, not doing so good.

Believe it or not: there ARE positive reasons for not being parents.  I live it!  Sounds strange, but there are things we can do, that would not take place had we been children, but alas, I would give it all up if I found out I was to become a mother!

Even the damn media is full of "fat" women!!  My husband says that I am a magnet to them and I could not agree more!  I feel that I am living a nightmare constantly and only sleep helps.

I am sooooo sorry for being negative; I am just not feeling very positive at the moment.

I do know what you are going through and if your list really helps you, I hug you for your bravery.

Suzanne

ps: I mention my faith because I could not explain myself otherwise, but please do not prejudge because of it


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## owenl

Hi
Haven't posted on here for a while as I've felt that it wasn't fair of me because it was male fertility problems and I am no longer with my then DH so I started questioning if I should be on a board that is for people with infertility problems when my infertility issue was down to my partner who isn't part of my life anymore.  Does that make sense?

Having said all that, my house is now on the market but no sniff of a sale yet, I am still living under the same roof as my ex and feel I can't move on properly until I have a place of my own, I am enjoying single life again and getting out socialising and having fun again after what I've realised is now years of an unhappy marriage but it's taken the end of fertility treatment for me to realise just how bad and unrepairable our marriage has become over the last 3 years or so and not just all down to fertily issues - lack of communication on his part and failure to make efforts was the final straw for me - I had accepted the possibility of a life without children if I stayed with him and was prepared to give all that a go but he wouldn't compromise on time spent together - so I do now see it as his loss as I'm feeling happier than I have in a while and even would go as far as to say that had we been lucky enough for our pg to continue to full-term I still think me and DH would have split up eventually as our marriage just wasn't strong enough to survive and people keep telling me that's it probably just as well I did have m/c under these circumstances but I would rather have had the baby and had another chance to work at my marriage and if we split later in life then I'd least have a child and the child would still have a daddy.

But, I still have regrets.  I now wish I'd left him years ago, love really is blind.  I can see he's been stringing me along for years in what was a marriage of convenience for him so that he wouldn't lose his garden he has been telling me he just has a low sex drive, doesn't enjoy walking or going out for meals anymore as he is just getting too old and that it wasn't me and yet two weeks after we decided to separate he is back on the dating scene online.  I feel if I'd left him years ago, there would have been more time on the body clock to have a chance of meeting someone else, and maybe having kids.

Now at 38, my confidence has taken a knock because of the way he has treated me, he may be able to get back on the dating scene quickly but I have found that even after being chatted up in the pub which was a great confidence booster, I just couldn't take it further, too soon for me since my breakdown of marriage and my miscarriage in May and still trying to come to terms with all that has happened in last couple of years between us and try and move on but not ready for a relationship and don't feel I will be for a while.

So whilst in theory I'm not infertile - I do know that two miscarriages mean that there could be problems with me rather than just male fertility issues, I have an extra chromosome and they don't know enough to say whether this could cause problems in the cells not dividing properly etc so it could issues with me too so even if I do meet somone else eventually who may want to start a family even if I am lucky enough to find myself pregnant which is less likely given my age, I will then be constantly worried as to whether I can get any further than 9 weeks pg and that for me at the moment is just too scary a prospect to go through again.

I'm also fed up with people saying to me how nice it must be to be young free and single again - I didn't choose to give up on my marriage - like infertily it wasn't a choice - it was forced upon me because of the impossible situation he left me in so I'm finding it hard to share their enthusiasm even although I am having more fun and made some nice new friends, I wouldn't have swapped it for the world if ex had just been prepared to make the effort.

The other thing people keep saying to me is "well, if it was male fertility, you could just go and have sex with someone to get pregnant" as if it's as easy as that.  1)  I'm not the type to just jump into bed with someone, for me there has to be feelings and emotions attached to it all and in a proper relationship 2) even if I could, I wouldn't want to go down this road as I wanted children as part of a married relationship with a partner, not to bring up a child on my own, much as I'd love kids I don't feel I want them as a single person as I'd want the child to have a father in their lives and I don't think I could cope on my own

So I'm not infertile (or at least not that I know of) but sadly I have to face the reality that if I want to move on, I need to accept that at least for the foreseeable future I am likely to be childfree and try and adapt to that as it's just too upsetting to live in hope that I will find someone else before the clock runs out.


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies,

Just a quickie. Wanted to wish Jenny a safe trip, so wonderful to be off to a new country, you must be really excited? I hope you get loads out of it, and really feel a sense of achievement. You're really going to make a difference in those childrens' lives, it's going to be fantastic. Your memorial event was really moving, I think it might be one of those things that you look back on in the future and feel a sense of relief that you did that. We did something similar on a trip to  Fatima, Lisbon (DH is Catholic). I ordered pink/blue ribbons from the miscarriage association (for every miscarriage and lost embryo) and we stuck them on a huge candle at the memorial wall. It was the first time I'd ever seen my DH drop to his knees and pray, and I had a great old weep. I'm glad I did it, but of course I still have my bad moments. It did help, but it wasn't some form of 'healing miracle' that wiped away all the pain.

Scouse - you're right to mourn your embies, they were indeed our babies, our children, our hopes and dreams for the future. I can never look at mine as 'just a ball of cells' as some well-meaning people will try to suggest, thinking that it lessens the pain!!!  

Welcome Suzanne, I read your post with interest. I know exactly where you're coming from re the religious complications we face. Faith can be a great comforter but any place of worship is bursting with great swaves of pregnant women and well-meaning but completely ignorant people at any one time. I just found it all too much. Don't even get me started on the celebrations I used to have to be involved with organising for Mother's Day, Chidren's nativity plays etc.... Excrutiatingly painful!

Owenl - sorry to hear the house sale is so slow. You're up in Edinburgh right? Beautiful city, but I guess the recession has hit your area as much as anywhere eh? I'm full of admiration for you, you've made such huge changes in your life re job/separation etc.. It must be quite frightening at times to go through such huges changes all at once. Just keep taking each day as it comes eh? Glad you getting out and meeting new people. That's what I need to do. You mustn't think you don't belong on this thread, you above all people know what it is to embrace the concept of 'moving on' even though it was kind of forced upon you. I wouldn't want you to give up hope of ever meeting a new man and having a family of your own, but in the meantime keep blogging with us. I look forward to reading your updates.

Big   to everyone else.

Helen xxx


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## Scouse

Thanks Helen   
Maybe we should really begin our own 'club'


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## owenl

I had another tearful moment at the weekend.  I was out on Friday night - got chatted up - was feeling quite flattered about it all but still not really ready to get into a relationship so I told the guy I was just recently single and wanting to stay that way.  He asked about my marriage and if I had kids to which of course I said no, married 10 years, together for 14 but no kids to show for it.  He then started going on about his son who is now 14 and how incomplete my life must be without a child and nothing to show for all my years of marriage.  I know he meant well in that he said there was still time for me to have kids as I looked like I was a healthy young woman, but I just felt like having a good    as don't want to pin false hopes on something that may not happen and to be told by someone else that I must feel incomplete was just awful.  Made a wide berth and went home feeling a little depressed.

Just back from hospital after having small cyst removed from my head.  Taking day off work on flexi.  Still looking around for another job but not much going and don't really want to leave my job until I find out if it's being continued next year.  Mum and Dad told me not to worry about the dog and that when the house sells and I need to get a full-time job to get a mortgage they will take the dog for me so that made things a little better as I'm more worried about what will happen to her than anything else - I'd miss the dog but I'd feel happier knowing she is with my parents and that I could still see her when they go on holidays etc.

Yes, we are in Edinburgh, not getting many viewers, just so many houses up for sale at the moment.  On a positive note, I'm out socialising a lot more than I used to be as is my ex so we don't cross paths all that much anyway.

How was everyones weekend?


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## Scouse

Oh owen I bet you felt like screaming at him to shut up!
I have a colleague similar - she often tells me that her children are her world and that her life wouldn't be worth living without them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD FOR HER but it really doesn't help when tx keep failing and there are no answers out there!
Suzanne / helen
I'm glad you are getting out there again, just to stop yourself thinking awhile and bulding your self confidence again!  I really hope you sell up, get a new job and move forward towards your new and exciting life!  GOOD LUCK!
Some Rev was talking on Radio 2 totay saying you can het over anything with 3 things - 1 Hope 2 Love 3 Faith
I have all 3 and yet I'm still without my dream.  I know God can't give gifts on demand, but I have been asking nicely for the past 10 years   
Anyway hope everyone else is 'fighting fit'


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Morning All,

Hope we are all doing OK? Had a bit of a wobble last week. Volunteered through work, last month, to help encourage elderly people to become internet savvy at a nearby library! Anyway, they have asked if I'll help volunteer again next week and there was something called Stay & Play at one of the library's. Having read previous literature, I thought it was about opening up the world of mobiles, and games consoles to the elderly, instead couldn't have been more wrong! Apparently it was a children's event and as there would be a captive audience of Mums/Dads, it would be to hold internet sessions showing parent websites that could be of use to them in bringing up children and what children's services are available on line!! How ironic. I then had to write back to the guy to say that for personal reasons I'd have to decline that session! There is no way I could of handled that!

*owenl* - sorry to hear about your experience, with the rather insensitive guy you met.  Reminds me of a conversation I had with a new hairdresser, a couple of weeks, who asked if I had children, to which I replied No, we've had problems in that dept, if you know what I mean, who then proceeded to go on about how she wanted 5 children and had told her boyfriend of just a few months, how she wanted 5 etc etc! Jeez thanks love, really need to hear that! Then again, she was quite young, so maybe the naivety of youth? Good to hear Mum/Dad will take care of your dog as and when needed, that must be a weight off your mind. your house gets sold soon, so you can move on and start your new life Well done on getting out and about too. Love Edinburgh btw, have been twice, as well as Glasgow and Inverness!

*Scouse* - yes, faith hope and love, with love being the greatest of all 3, I remember from my wedding reading! Have lost my faith, am rapidly running out of hope, but at least I'm very lucky to have love! So 1 outta 3 ain't bad! Well done for holding on to all 3 

*helen6887* - your own individual memorial to your lost babies sounded lovely and so glad it has helped you and DH 

*Suzanne* - how are you? Did you make it to your meeting in the end?  Interested when you said "I am a christian, one of Jehovah's Witnesses" - was it just a typo, (you meant to say I am not a christian), only my understanding is that a Jehovah's Witnesses is a Non Christian "cult"?

*JennyR* - Not sure if this may be too late, but just wanted to wish you the very best of luck with your trip to Madagascar.

*karenann, waywardstork* - Hi, how are you doing?

Tamsin
x


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## Clomidia

Hi Ladies   

Jenny, I’m not sure if you’ll read this but I wish you well  on your trip and look forward to hearing all about it in the new year. See you  in 2011!! And if you are reading this, then: Yes, I did IUIs but not at Jessops – but I have been around these  boards a while so you may indeed know me! I know how you feel about being battered and  bruised; it is such a harrowing experience, IF, I truly believe if you haven’t been  through it, there is nothing that compares...  I loved your posts on the reasons why you  wanted a child. Beautifully said. 

Waywardstork, yes we should write another BJ book ourselves!   Because of course if Helen Fielding did it, it would probably all be happy ever  after in the end, a la Hollywood! - and life is sadly not like that for those  of us on here!!    I think it is good to take time out, to let life pass for a  while; it is so, so hard when you are going from cycle to cycle, it is no way  to live and we all need a break. Speaking of cycle, well done to your hubby!  (and you for supporting him!!)You must be very proud of him (and both of you!)   

Juby, welcome!   I can so relate to everything you have said, and I am  so sorry for all you have been through. Big hugs.  I think your feelings, particularly anger and  perhaps frustration too, are something we can all relate to. As someone who is  now started on the adoption route, I can’t honestly say I have put "trying again"  to one side completely; it is always going to be there I think. I believe that our  decision to adopt, although I didn’t want it to be second-best, is still not what we had  planned for our lives, and therefore there will always be a feeling of ‘what if’.  What if we had kept trying? What if money were no object, would we go again? 

I don’t think there will ever come a time when I will say I am perfectly happy  with where I am, because there is always going to be a compromise. So I guess I  am saying for me, I will never be able to let go fully of wanting to be  pregnant, to have a baby, and there will always be a little part of me that  grieves for that. But I can live with that grief, that hole, and hope that it  gives me strength for my new path, so to speak.  I am not sure if I am trying to help or hinder you, but I totally  understand where you’re coming from and time is, of course, a great help.  It took us a year after our last bfn to look  into adoption, and we really needed that time (and perhaps would have taken  another few years, if it wasn’t for our ages!!)   

Montagne, how are you doing? Yes, at least 1 of the other  couples did know what we’ve been through, and I would’ve thought that after 5  years of marriage the others would have guessed – it’s not something we hide  either. But jokes about how “we had such a fab steak in New York that we had twins”  are not funny.   I did chip something back about how it doesn’t always work that  way, and there was an uncomfortable moment, but hey, if someone is going to be that insensitive then I don’t care if my response seems harsh!   

Beachgirl – a dessert island sounds like a plan!!!   

Sunset, big hugs   

Tamsin, so so sorry for your losses. Big hugs for you, and  we’re all here for you.   

Suzanne, sorry you’re having  a hard time, and please don’t apologise for mentioning your faith! I  wish that I could find strength in mine, but right now I can’t...  

Helen, thank you so much for posting steps 5 and 6, and being  so honest about your feelings, as always.    I can totally relate to you saying we should have a response ready when people ask if we  have children. After our first IVF failed I started to say “No we can’t have  children” and that worked for a while, and was a big step for me, facing up to  the truth of it, but then I got fed up with getting bog-standard “why don’t you  just adopt” responses or “have you considered alternatives” or just general  insensitive people telling you pointless stories about "a-friend-of-a-friend who couldn’t  have children and then conceived twins/triplets/multiples when they stopped  trying/holiday/moved house..." ARGHHH .... so I’ve given up on that one for a while! 

I now say “No”. Simple as that. Sometimes I get funny looks  from people, as if they expect me to expand on it, but I don’t. Just say “no”.  Often there is a pause, an expectant one, but I don’t bite. (I dare them to ask  why to be honest, and so far, no one has!!) So the conversation then usually  moves on... works for me. How about you gals? 

Like you Helen, infertility has also led me away from my faith,  rather than towards, particularly the Catholic Church’s views on IVF (I am a  Catholic, well, I guess sort of now!) I'm not sure if I will return to it, which is hard as I married in a church and have strong beliefs, and my family do too, but right now it offers me nothing. I feel like some kind of failure for not having children, and also like I am being punished for doing IVF... far too complicated right now, so I'll leave that one to oneside for now, thank you... 


Onwards and upwards ladies, time really does help although it doesn't cure...


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## waywardstork

Hello everyone.

Hope that you are all well and enjoying the weekend, all be it wet and cool!  

Sorry I have not been on for a while.  Been an interesting few weeks.  DH and I have had an open chat and have decided to try to adopt.  (I only say try as it seems that to begin to hope again is once again setting myself up for dissapointment!). 

At this stage we have made an initial phone consult and have had some paperwork through to fill in.  We will be attending an open evening in December ... and then things begin to move forward from then.  It's a long process, but I am so glad that the decision has been made. Moving forward feels so positive after all the negative treatments.  I know there will be hard decisions and perhaps dissapointments, but I am trying to stay positive.

I am not fooling myself that there wont be moments of grief that we could not have our own biological child ....  AND for that reason, I would dearly like to remain on your thread....

I promise to be discreat and considerate in what I say   .... but if anyone feels that it would be unfair to remain on this thread because we are moving on to adoption, please let me know.  I wont take it personally...  

That said ..... news shared ..... have a lovely weekend all.  
Much love,
Waywardstork    
(PS  I guess my name is no longer suitable ..... perhaps I'll have to change it to Cuckoo's Mummy)


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## helen6887

Ah Waywardstork, don't be daft   you'll always be welcome on this thread. We'd miss you're insights and tips on coping with infertility if you left. Congrats on deciding to adopt -    it all goes smoothly for you.

Well, hubby and I have had a long old talk over the last week or so, and sadly decided to call it a day  . We've both had so much to cope with over the last few years, and sadly it has driven us apart rather than thrown us into eachother's arms. Whilst I feel I've come to some kind of resolution re my infertility, hubby has become more and more depressed and rather than turning to counselling he has become a really heavy drinker, in fact if I'm honest, I would say he is well and truely turning into an alcoholic. I'm torn, because I still love him, but he refuses to face up to the fact that he has a drink problem and as I said to my mum this week 'I don't deserve to be a member of two support groups - i.e fertilityfriends and al-anon!' I guess I've realised that the only way I can cope with infertility, is if the rest of my life is pretty dam brilliant, an so now I've sorted out my career, I've had to finally face up to the fact that my marriage is pretty rubbish. Something's got to change.   It's not great, but I'm glad we've finally come to a decision. So it's going to take awhile to get the house ready for sale and I'll have to find somewhere to rent (with the dog) in the meantime. 

Life will get better, I'm going to stay strong, cos I deserve to be happy.

Sorry for lack of personnels, will catch up on next post.

Helen xxxx


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## owenl

Hi Helen
Just wanted to say I'm sorry to hear things haven't worked out with you and DH.  I know how it feels and I have no answers but it does get easier - I'm still living with ex and it can be incredibly stressful at times but I cannot afford to move out until house sells but despite everything I know that I have done the right thing my moving on as I'm now seeing a side of him that I don't like and he's not going to change.  It's good that you are able to move out and rent somewhere yourself, I think that will help you to move on quicker.  I still loved my DH when we called it a day too, but I've moved beyond that now and I'm sure you will too in time.  

Not posting much on these boards as busy job hunting, trying to get the house sold and going out lots to get away from ex, but still thinking of everyone on here.  Like me, you deserve to be happy and things will improve.

Lisa


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## Clomidia

helen, I'm so sorry to hear about you and your dh.  Big hugs for you at this time   

waywardstork, I wish you and your dh all the luck in the world with adoption    

I have a similar confession; dh and I have also started on the adoption process. I also completely understand if it is inappropriate for me to continue posting on this thread.  I guess for me, I feel that dealing with the loss of our own biological children is seperate to the adoption thing, and so I have found a lot of comfort and support on this board in coping with my grief. 

But now things are moving along slowly, and our social worker interview went well (we did the open day last month) so we start our prep course in Jan, so I feel a little uncomfortable posting here I guess....

But I hope no one minds if I keep browsing from time to time...? 

Cxx


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## Rowan22

Good luck to those of you going down the adoption route!
However, I think it's important to remember that it's not easy and not everyone succeeds in achieving their dream and having a child at the end.
It's hard for me to write this without seeming rude and I've no desire to be rude but we tried adoption and were rejected at the first hurdle, the meeting with the social worker, who apparently disliked us on sight. She told us our house was too small, among other things. My dh has a history of depression and this gave the county an excuse to reject us. 
Have you any idea how it feels to be told you're not suitable to be parents? How this makes you feel you must be a terrible person, scarcely a member of the human race? And to be rejected on grounds you simply can't help, like health? My dh was on anti depressants for some time; in his case, it was very much a real, physical illness. 
And when I think of the sort of natural parents some poor kids get...!   
This is a festering wound which will never heal; another turn of the screw.  We have no hope unless I can get my disabled aging body to do what it's supposed to do. We can't afford tx. 
I need somewhere I can go where I can feel safe. This board is all I've got. I 'talk' to two wonderful people who are members of this site by pm and they help me but it's hard even to browse the rest of the site, with all these people who have apparently limitless resources and are going abroad for donor egg tx. I wish them well, of course, but again it's an option we simply don't have. Illness tends to affect your earning capacity and I've been ill for years. 
Where else can I go, where there's not talk about babies and pg and children? We seem to be left with no options, only the unthinkable. All ways forward are barred. 
Just a cry from the heart.

Rowan


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## karenann

Rowan - I was so sad   reading your post my heart goes out to you   
I hate the way people trying to adopt get rejected for reasons which quite frankly are stupid a nd insulting - I mean your house is too small - what rubbish and as for having depression well that is an illness would they disqualify someone who is diabetic ?? - I have had experience in the adoption field - Hearing stories like yours I know why I left it makes me angry    I have seen a few adoptive parents and quite frankly I wouldn't let them near a hamster !! But they ticked all the nice boxes for some social worker - they had a nice house etc...  I am so sorry you had this experience - Adopting a child is not about how much money you have or how big your house is. You are right you see some natural parents and it makes you so angry   
I too have been unable to go down the tx route - Dh wouldn't go for tests or tx !    and even if he would we are too old for tx on NHS and couldn't afford it privately. 
Please know that you are not alone - I wish there was some magic wand or words that could take away the pain - until I find them I am sending you big   

Helen - I am so sorry about you and Dh sending you big    It heartbreaking when as well as coping with infertility you have to cope with the loss of a relationship. 

Waywardstork and Clomidia - I wish you heaps of luck with the adoption and hope and pray you achieve your goals 

Tamsin and Owen - Hi ladies Hope you are doing ok 

To all ladies sending    

Karenann xx


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## helen6887

Ah Rowan, just a quickie, to say I was really touched by your last post. Reading your experience of the adoption route reminded me why I've never gone down that path. When people suggest adoption to me as a 'cure' for infertility I usually make some glibe remark about it not being the same as having your own child, but really I couldn't face the fact that yes some social worker has the power to deem me an unsuitable person to be a mother. It would break my heart. It's one thing to know that nature/biology has deemed me not fit to be a mother, but to hear someone voice the words that I fear the most - that I am not good enough to be a mother, would be more than I could bear to hear. My heart goes out to you. Why oh why can people not see the damage that infertility does to a person? We've probably all suffered health complaints such as depression, as a result of dealing with the stress that IF causes. Can't these social workers understand that IF causes depression and therefore should never be used against a prospective adoptee.

I do hope Waywardstork and Clomidia don't end up experiencing the same heartache as you and your DH.

Helen xxx

P.S. You're right about needing this thread. The inspiration you ladies provide is often the only thing that gets me through the day. Keep posting, keep supporting eachother.xxxxx


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## Rowan22

Karenann and Helen, thank you for your responses.
Your words mean a lot.   
At times, the sheer injustice of it all makes me grind my teeth but there it is. We can't force it to happen naturally and at my age and with the various conditions, it's very unlikely that it will, and we can't adopt, either! And yes, you're both right, I'm afraid in that situation the social workers have the power and they can reject you for the flimsiest of reasons. This one even told us where we were to sit in our own house! Good for you getting out of it, Karenann!
Sometimes I wish I'd been a really bad kid, slept around and got pg at 16! Of course, as they say, hindsight is always 20/20...
Take care,

Rowanx


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## Sunset

Hi Everyone
I haven't been here for q a while.  Your posts are very thought provoking and very inspirational.
To the girls who are beginning the adoption process - I wish you every good wish.  I hope all goes well for you.  I know very little about the process, but I understand it is quite involved and lengthy.  Good luck and I hope all works out well for you.
To Helen and Owenl - sending you both a big hug.
I recently went on hols with my fiance.  We had an amazing time - pizza, pasta, odd glass of wine - just loved Venice!
I feel that my life is taking me on a different path to that of my many (near lifelong) friends.  Sometimes I want to scream!  I'm not sure how to cope with comments like - 'are you on holiday AGAIN!?' 'I'm a Mum...never get a minute' 'it's so strange seeing stairs without a stairgate'.....I guess it has recently become very apparent how my life is different from theirs.  This isn't my chosen path.  But it's the one I'm on and I'm determined to make the most of it.  I have a loving fiance and we have a good life together.
At work a girl came in with her new baby.  He's gorgeous.  She asked me across a crowded staff room how many children I am going to have.  Or the 'you've got this all ahead of you' comments.
I know people mean well.  They are my friends.  But I could honestly scream.  I make noncommittal noises and rapidly change the subject.  I find it all q stressful.  Since we got engaged I feel like the comments have multiplied!!
I'm going to my best friend's daughter's birthday party at the weekend.  I'm delighted she asked me....I'll be the only woman there with no children.  But sure!
Any ideas of how to cope with this would be welcomed.  Screaming is probably not very socially acceptable!!
Love s xo


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## Guest

Hi lovely ladies,

I have not posted on this thread before but read it a few times and am very grateful to all of you for sharing your feelings and for all the good advice. I try to follow it. Don't aways succeed!

Rowan -   so sad to hear of the terrible way you've been treated by social services. We've had a v difficult time with them to strat with and almost gave up a few times, and it feels so unfair that some SWwe can tell you whether you can be parents or not   But may I suggest, if you can still face it, that you try another agency? I don't know in what part of the country you are, but there usually are several agencies to try. Unfortunately a lot comes down to the SWer's personal 'tsate' in people which is appaling. I think another SWer will see that you can accommodate a child in your house and that your DH's being treated for his condition shows that he can take care of it and be a good parent. I know it's horrid after your experience, but I hate to see that one totally *** SWer would stop two lovely people to give a home to a child who needs it. Hope what I said does not give offence in any way.

Helen -   sorry for you and DH going your separate ways, it is such a shame he is not able to face his issues of drink and make it happen. AS you say you deserve better and I wish you a lovely new life   with all my heart

Waywardstork and Clomidia - lots of luck on your adoption journeys!

I hope nobody took offence on my participating in the discussion while we are on the adoption route. I do hope that adoption will make the heartache stop and we'll feel whole as a family, but the process has been long and difficult, and 12 years of IF and m/cs before it makes me afraid to hope again, so I feel I get the support from you in the same way as others who also don't ahve children. Please let me know if you'd prefer me not to post anymore, though.

Rivka x


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## Rowan22

Hi Rivka,

Thanks for your kind words. I was looking at the adoption board last night and you do seem to have gone through the mill. I hope you get your match soon.
We are beginning to come round to the idea of having another try. I don't think it's going to be at all easy but I'm having to face the fact that my poor old body just can't conceive, or if it does, it loses it. Last month, when something did happen and I lost it, was excruciating; it's hard to describe how bad that made me feel.   
Anyway, I refuse to spend the rest of my life stuck in this horrible place. We are thinking about either trying the adoption route again or going for donor egg ivf. The problem with the ivf is that we simply can't afford it. We'd struggle to finance one go, let alone the three that seem to be required, on average. 
Since the last adoption attempt, we've moved, to a different part of the country and a much bigger house. Also, my dh is now off the anti ds and has been for some time. We're hoping these factors might make us a more attractive proposition this time round. It would also be good if we got a social worker who didn't hate us on first sight. 
Helen, I hope things are beginning to sort themselves out for you. All this puts an enormous stress on marriages and relationships. I did say to my dh yesterday that if he'd only married a younger, healthier model he'd have had three kids by now but all he said was that he wanted me. 

Rowanxx


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## Guest

Rowan - I PMed you.

Sunsety - hope the children party wasn't too difficult (hugs)

Helen - hope your relationship decision is not proving too heart-wrenching (hugs)

Kernan, Clomidia - hope you are OK.

Rivka x


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies,
How are we all?

Think you're going to like the next step in our ten step programme (from the book 'Never To Be a Mother' by Linda Hunt-Anton, for those ladies that are new to the thread). Step 7 is called *'Rechanneling Mothering Energy'*.

The author starts:
'The _need to nuture is often a powerful force for childless women. Although some women _
_ feel the need more intensely than others, most women experience tremendous _
_ frustration at one time or another because they have not expressed this potent bottled-up_
_ energy....the need is more than just physical; it is also psychological, social and spiritual._
_ We are dealing with a powerful force here, a force that demands expression and direction_.'
(p.137)
I know that at times my desire to be a mother became an obsessive compulsion, in fact the more we tried and couldn't have children, the stronger my maternal instincts became. There was a biological driving force behind my desire, but if you look at the earlier steps, you'll see that for me there were definitely elements of social (_I want to be like all the other women I meet_), psychological (_I feel like a freak of nature sometimes, my self-esteem has been crushed_) and spiritual (_if babies are blessings from God, why haven't I been blessed_?).

Linda warns us that the drive to be a mother can be a constructive or a destructive force. We've all felt that destructive force, everytime we feel overcome with grief at life's unfairness, everytime we bite back a bitter retort, everytime we feel jealous and envy at our friends and family because they were able to have children oh so easily. Before you know it, we've turned into bitter, resentful, nasty women that we hardly recognise eh?

So how do we rechannel all this 'mothering-energy'? Well, another word of warning - don't try to do it if your in the early stages of childlessness, when you're still feeling that awful raw loss (you know the one). You need to mourn and to let go. You probably need counselling too. If you throw yourself into loads of activities, trying to fill your life you might find you're really just in denial of what you've really lost. I did this myself, in 14 years of trying to conceive I can honestly say that most people would have been given the impression that I wasn't really all that bothered that I couldn't seem to have children, for probably 10 of those years. I didn't really talk about it. Even my close family and friends weren't aware of how I really yearned for a child, how I was devastated every month my period arrived, how I grew to hate my body, especially my dysfunctional reproductive organs. My life appeared happy, busy and filled, but I was indeed in denial. It took one last miscarriage, a failed IVF and a FET, before things really started to unravel. And suddenly I couldn't deny what was going on any longer.

_Sometimes in our first attempts to rechannel this energy we overcompensate, going to extremes in the opposite direction_. Oh I can really relate to this. I used to run myself ragged, trying to be a 'good' person, helping other people. I made myself indespensable at my local church, so that I was running groups for the children, the old people, the single adults, you name it. Most people go to church once a week if that, I was in there at least three times a week, plus working full time. I was knackered. Now I've quit the whole church scene, given up full time work... and I'm gradually starting to refill my life with things *I want to do, *not things that other people want me to do.

So here we go, Linda Hunt-Anton's guide to rechanneling your mother-energy:

1. Deciding you want to. Deciding if you want to or need to find a new focus for your untapped energy, because not all women will fill the need. But if you do feel unsatisfied, if you feel that something significant is missing in your life (duh!-my comment, not Linda's), you need to pursue this step.

2. Choosing a focus. When we think of rechanneling our mother-energy, we might think the obvious choice is other children. Some of us were mentioning sponsoring children through 'World Vision' and other charities. I must say I enjoy writing to the little lad we sponsor in Kenya. I don't think of him as my child, he will never take that place, but I enjoy hearing of the progress he's making in school and seeing the difference our contribution has made in his life. There are loads of opportunities to be with children, but focusing on other children might still be too painful for many of you, so there has to be other possibilities. Working with older people can be just as rewarding, again loads of volunteer programmes with age concern, nursing homes, elderly neighbours and such (cripes I'm sounding like a Conservative advertisement for the 'Big-society'). Other women (this one's for me) turn naturally to animals, either as pets or by becoming involved in broader causes. Other womenn prefer to direct their energies towards creative arts or private enterprise. I told you I'd taken up belly-dancing as a way of having a laugh but also cause I really wanted to feel like a woman again, doing something that felt sexy and feminine. (of course, that's not what it looks like in reality, but it's all about the way it makes you feel, even if you do look like a giant hippo, shaking you're hips like a crazed baboon  ).

3. Challenge yourself. _Because women have traditionally been so focused on relationships and taking care of others, few have ever really tapped the depth and breadth of their intellectual, physical, or creative abilities. If they think about it all, they would like to do more with their lives, but they hold back_. Well here's our chance ladies. Take a deep breath and ask yourselves, (apart from children), what do you really want from life? Oh I know your first thought will be ' all I ever wanted was to be a mum, and have a family' - cos that was mine, but now you have to accept that's not going to happen. So ask the question again. Then do as Dolly Parton (sorry, another cringing admission, I'm a big fan of Dolly's) sings in 'Better Get To Livin' - take a deep breath and then _get your dreams in line and just shine, design, refine, till they come true!_ 
I guess that's why I've made the huge decision to leave my DH, find a new career, and start again. So I know there will be no babies, children, grandchildren (and no I don't want to minimise that loss) but as I've said before, I deserve to have a happy and fulfilling life AND that's what I'm going to have!!!! We can't change what's happened in our past, but we can plan a much better future. Sorry I've rabbited on and on... I'll leave you with Linda's last point on this step:

_'When we dreamed of having children, we wanted to bring our finest qualities, our purest_
_ love to mothering. We wanted to be the best we could be as mothers. Just because we_
_ do not have children is no reason to neglect those finest qualities, that purest love, that_
_ striving to be the best that we can be_.'

Big    to everyone.

Helen xxx


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Thanks for that *helen6887* - lots of things there that "hit home"

*Rowan* - Very best of luck with which ever route you decide to go down, esp if you are brave enough to go down the adoption route.

*rivka* - All the very best with your adoption. Really hope it works out for you

*Sunset* - Hope you were able to survive your friends daughters party?

 to everyone else I've missed

AFM, well it's doubtful we'll go down the adoption route and although never say never to DIVF, it's increasingly unlikely, so seems I'll just have to concentrate on *'Rechanneling Mothering Energy'*!! But I am forever grateful for at least having the luck of having found my soulmate, who has remained by my side despite everything we have been through together 

xx


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## Guest

Helen -you continue to inspire us all, you'tre such a strong and atriculate woman and you deserve a better new life! 

Tamsin - well said, and hugs on the heartache, it's not easy to decide ...

Rowan - hope things are going well.

Just had a wobble today as another friend announced her pg (no. 2). She's been complaining for the whole year about 'trying' and thought she knows exactly what I feel (yeh, right, no. 1 exactly when she wanted, no. 2 some months after ttc). One colleague at work had a baby, two more going on mat leave now. Adoption looks like a distant dream. Feel like I'm getting nowhere.

Hope you all have a good weekend. We have a busy weekend ahead of us with lots of socialising so hope it'll make us feel better.

Rivka x


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## owenl

Well, I had another wobble at the weekend, I think I've been doing well, and from reading Helen's Step 7 post I can relate to a lot of it as well:


I'm still looking for a new job for a fresh start (nothing much going but keeping my eyes peeled and remaining positive)
I'm still living under same roof as ex, but building up my social network of single friends and getting out and having fun a lot more
Had a few dates and chat ups but honestly don't feel ready for all that yet (but the flattery good for my confidence which is a bit low at the moment)
Struggling a bit with my depression but taking active steps to deal with it
Been going to weight watchers for 3 months and lost a stone and a half to date and come down a dress size
I've recently started doing some voluntary work befriending adults with drug related problems and trying to help them stay clean
 So with things improving again and not thinking about babies so much I took a wobbly on Saturday night as one of my friends who I only met after I split up with ex but who I have a lot in common with and get on great with and enjoy going out for a few drinks with at the weekends because we share some similarities ie she too has found herself single due to infertility issues as she suffers from PCOS and her and DP and her tried for 6 years to have a family but couldn't, his tests came back normal, he wouldn't consider IVF and eventually they grew apart, I find out on Saturday that she's not drinking because despite the PCOS and years of infertility she split with her DP and had a brief casual relationship with someone a few months ago and was careless when drunk and didn't use contraception and now she's 8 weeks pregnant.

I know I was supposed to be pleased for her but I just felt jealous that it wasn't me even though I wouldn't want a baby as a single mum, and she herself said she wouldn't have chosen it this way and isn't sure if she can cope alone but because her parents are dead, her sister is much older and she doesn't have anyone else, she wants to keep the baby. I found myself thinking there's another friend that I won't see as often socially as she's too busy with the baby and I know I should be pleased that it's worked for her and not be acting this way. She did say that as I don't have any brothers and sisters myself and hence no nieces and nephews which I'd said at one point would have been nice given I don't have my own kids, she would like me to be an auntie, so I've got mixed views, pleased for her and a possible opportunity of having a child in my life in some capacity but upset that it's happened to someone who didn't think she could have kids and so easily with someone else and also upset that I will lose my friend for girls nights out etc. going to the movies with her next week but it just doesn't feel the same anymore 

Onwards and upwards eh?

How is everyone else doing?


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## helen6887

Ah Owenl,

Just read your post, and got that lump in my throat  . Firstly let me say, you're sounding so much more positive, you really are getting your life together aren't you? I really admire you, cause you seem so strong. And well done with the volunteer work with drug rehab, don't think I would have the confidence to do something like that. AND wow, I've been at Weight Watchers for the past year, and lost and gained a stone  , so you've done great to lose 1 1/2 stone. That's brill. 

Regarding your friend, I know it must be so hard to know that she too has overcome her fertility problems, and you're probably feeling like you're the only one left now, who doesn't seem able to have a child. As we've said, many times before, it's not fair - but think about it, would you really want your friend to suffer like you have for the past years. Remember that she deserves to be a mum too, and it sounds like she's going to be doing it alone. She'd probably really appreciate your help in the next few months and like you said it might be a way of bringing a baby into your own life (perhaps in small doses at first  ). You might get a lot out of it yourself. My best friend is currently trying for her third (drops like clockwork  ), and at times it's been incredibly hard to be around her and the children. But I'm slowly realising that I do get pleasure from them. The first time her little boy threw his arms round my neck and told me that he loved me, I thought I would die from happiness. I've even managed to scratch off a few things from my 'I will never...' list, cos I've done them with him (i.e feeding the ducks, playing pooh sticks etc..). Take it one day at a time and you might find that it turns out to be a little blessing in disguise eh?

 
Helen xxx


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## Clomidia

Helen, thanks so much for your latest installment ... yet again I truly appreciate how open and honest you are in your posts. 

I like to think that I am trying my best to move on, but there are still occasions when it takes my breath away, when the pain is so raw all I can do is sob and holler... although now I allow myself to get it all out, wallow in it for a brief time, and then take a deep breath and move on. I don't think this pain will ever leave us, but it comes less often than before, although it still hurts just as much ... 

As for finding something to fulfil us in life, I am learning to swim - something I am/was absolutely terrified of, but I just thought what's the worst that can happen? I fail? So what... at least I tried. So far it's going well and I can't wait for my lessons each week. I am also training for a new career; I need something to keep me occupied for the next 30 or 40 years til we can afford to retire.   

I went to my friends' christening party last weekend (her 3rd, all born in the time dh and I have been ttc). He is a cute little baby and I do love to have a cuddle. As I was leaving I passed him over to one of the aunties there and she smiled and said "You'll be next" with a wink. I just smiled back and said "No, I can't have children" and left it at that. I do wonder why people feel the need to fill these stupid voids What if I had just lost a child? Or buried a child? Or couldn't have children... ehhh hangon, I do fit into that last category   

Anyway, it didn't spoil my day, and I left the chaos of the party (presents everywhere, kids running amuck!) and came back to the safety and security of my own home and my lovely dh. I am very fortunate to be this lucky, and to have this security, I know. 

I was thinking about how we are dealing with our loss, and without meaning to offend anyone who is single or whose relationship has broken down, I wondered if there was anything similar out there for men? In terms of the book I mean?  My dh struggles so much with thoughtless or unkind words (various dads-to-be bragging about how manly they are to have impregnated their wives causes him huge upset)... Just wondering though?? If anyone has any tips let me know. 

Lastly, I'm sorry to hear so many frustrating and heartbreaking stories about SWers and adoption denials... big hugs for each and every one of you. I almost gave up to begin with when I rang one agency who said we wouldn't wanna adopt the kids that are out there, and another who said unless we were from ethnic minority we shouldn't even bother... very frustrating and we feel very lucky to be with the VA we are with now. Anyway, that is a separate issue, but I just wanted to send huge     to those who have been treated so badly. 

I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone...  You're all in my prayers xx


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## caroline9550

Hello there,

I am so glad I have found this thread, I've just had a quick glance but looks fab.  We've just had our 4th and final ICSI and that's it for us. I don't feel anything at the moment (? in denial   ), nor have I shed a tear which is most unlike me from all my previous attempts.  In fact it seems friends and family are more upset than me or DH.  Am going to start at the beginning of this thread and work through all the steps to see if it helps me release something.

Caroline x


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## helen6887

Hi Caroline,

Welcome to the group. I'm so sorry your final treatment hasn't worked. To go through four failed treatments must have been awful.   The tears will come, in their own good time eh? You might still be in shock or yes, denial. 

I found the book, we've all been following, on Amazon, and I must say, although it's by an American author, she really does make some valid points and the ten step programme to 'recovery' has really helped myself and lots of women on this thread. It's called 'Never To Be a Mother' by Linda Hunt Anton. I'm still working through the steps myself, and every now and then I have a bit of a relapse and I go back through a previous step, but on the whole things are getting better. I would agree with you that starting at Step One is the place to start. It is a painful task to write down the things that you have lost, in not being able to have children. If you're up to it we'd love you to share your 'I will never...' list. No one will judge you here and the ladies on this thread are very supportive. Together we will all get through this difficult part of our lives...we will survive! Look forward to your next post.

Helen xxx


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## caroline9550

Thanks Helen, I have ordered the book but in the meantime here is my list to add:

I will never:
- Have another positive HPT
- See the joy on DH's face telling him the good news
- Phone my parents to tell them that its happened at last
- Buy maternity clothes
- Know how is feels to carry my own child
- Show off my bump proudly
- Be able to join in with conversations about my child
- Experience that inner glow
- Buy baby clothes for my own child
- go to my child's nativity play at christmas

Caroline x


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## helen6887

Ah Caroline,

Still brings a lump to my throat when I read the 'I will never lists....'   It's so important to acknowledge this loss, cos some people might think it's not a big deal, but when you add up all those losses - it's massive!  

Lots of        whilst you go through this really painful period.

Helen xxx


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## ♥Tamsin♥

Hi *Caroline* and welcome - am so sorry for the situation you have found yourself in  Your I Never Will really resonates with me. It's so unfair isn't it 

*owenl* - So sorry to hear about the situation with your friend. I've heard so many stories of this happening. It's a really hard place for you to be in right now. 

*Clomidia* - very best of luck with your swimming and career plans and of course with Adopting 

 to everyone else and hope you are doing OK and managinmg to stay strong 

Tamsin
x


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## hellybelly78

Hi everyone

I would like to join this thread as you all seem such strong and brave women.  I'm sitting on my bed at home, waiting for the inevitable to happen.  After such amazing news at the beginning of the week, we can't believe that this is happening - I still feel pregnant and have no physical signs of miscarriage yet have been told that it is only a matter of time.  

We decided before this treatment that this would be our final go.  We have a dilemma in that we have 4 frozen embryos from this treatment however given our track record, it is likely that FET would end in a similar way.  We can't put ourselves through it anymore and want our lives back.  We love each other so much - like everyone else I guess we believed that having children would make our lives complete.  We do have great friends but the majority of them are onto baby number 2 so we can't help feeling more isolated than ever.


I intend buying the book when I'm feeling a little stronger and will post to update you with our progress.  A difficult road ahead but we'll get there.  Lots of love to everyone - I know you have all had similar experiences and that you understand......


xx


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## Sunset

Hi 
I'm having a rubbish week.  Maybe it's time to take my first step....so here goes...

We will never be 'trying for a baby'
I will never take a pregnancy test, discover I'm pregnant and be able to share that news with my DH and my family/friends
I will never be pregnant
I will never be a mummy.  I will never hear 'I love you Mummy'
My fiance will never be a Dad
I will never hold my child's hand
I will never hug my child
I will never read my child a bedtime story and tuck her up in bed
I will never paint, draw or bake buns with my child
I will never attend my child's plays, sports days etc
I will never be a part of that 'Mum's Grp'
I will never help my child with her homework
I will never teach my child to ride her bike; take her to the beach; feed the ducks; plan for Santa
I will never buy clothes for my child
I will never pick out toys for my child
I will never guide my child through school/college/Uni
I will never help my child plan her wedding
I will never have a Mother/Daughter day
I will never take photos of my child and display them proudly in my house
We will never be Grandparents

I'm crying as a write this.  I'm finding this incredibly difficult at the moment.  I think it's the time of year - and I'm nearly another year older!!
Love s xo


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## caroline9550

Hellybelly    - I'm so sorry that you find yourself in this position. I don't know all your story but my heart goes out to you. Similar to you we have deceided that enough is enough and our 4th attempt of IVF was our last. Unlike you we never had any frozen embies so not sure how i'd feel if I were in your position.  All I can say is just to give yourself some time to grieve and make sure you have no regrets later on.  If this is your last time and you have both reached that conclusion, then in time you can start to deal with this being your new path.  I personally feel relieved that I won't be puting myself or my DH through all this again only to be further in debt, heartbroken and still childless.

Sunset     - thinking of you. Your list brought tears to my eyes, I can relate to many of your 'I will never' statements. Hope you feel a little better now. Look after yourself.

Caroline x


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## helen6887

Sunset - I know how you feel. I cried reading your list too. Xmas is always a hard time, I guess because it's a magical time for children, and you always feel there's something missing, especially if like me, Christmas Day is always spent amongst adults only. I make a point of showing how thankful I am to be spending xmas with my mum, dad and sister. I'm really very lucky at my age, to have both my parents, so I just make it a special time to be with them.

Hellybelly - welcome to the thread. So sorry your treatment hasn't worked this time. You don't sound 100% sure that this is your last treatment - must be very hard when you know you've still got frozen embies. How does anyone ever let go of the idea that those embies might one day become your babies? I don't envy you being in that position, perhaps you need time to grieve for the embryo's you've recently lost before you decide one way or the other to give up.

Hi to all the other lovely ladies on this thread. 

Helen xxx


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## Clomidia

Caroline and sunset, I too found reading your "I will never.." lists really emotional.    I can relate to so much of them. 

I think of mine often: 
I will never see a bfp 
I will never miss a period and think oh wow, I might be pg 
I will never feel my child move in my belly 
I will never give birth 
I will never breastfeed 
I will never see my husbands' face in my own child

It takes your breath away when we see if written down, doesn't it? I guess that's why so many people just don't get what we're going through, because they take all this, and more, completely for granted. Lucky sods  

Tamsin, thanks... swimming away here, doing grand and working hard too. Adoption plans going along smoothly (for now)   thanks for asking - how are you doing?

Helen, I don't know about you but I dread Christmas most of the time now. I used to love planning it and spending it with all our family but now we prefer to spend it primarily alone (ie just us two), though sometimes with another couple of friends who also can't have children. I think we both couples get the big gap in each other's lives on Christmas Day... we didn't choose this road, so we can't be cheerful about it and we are comfortable enough in each other's company. 

If I'd had my way I'd have 2 or 3 little ones running about the place by now and I'd be loving planning Santa ... 

Anyway, hope everyone is doing ok... big hugs to you all   and welcome hellybelly ...


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## caroline9550

Clomidia,

I agree, it is hard to see the lists of things we will never experience.  Hoping time will be a good healer   . 

My boss announced she was pregnant on Monday and that seems to have released my emotions since BFN   , then afterwards my line manager saw how upset I was and told me I'm going have to start facing things as many other people are going to get pregant time and time again   .  I hate that everyone at work knows my business and doesn't understand, I suppose that's to be expected as they all have children. Sorry for negative post - feel a bit blue today.

Caroline x


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## helen6887

Ah Caroline, don't be so hard on yourself. 

It's very early days, and the pain is so raw!   I could    your work colleagues for being so insensitive (God, if they could only walk in our shoes for one day eh?). Don't you ever think you have to apologise, or make excuses for the way you feel - you are NORMAL!!!!! Take time to grieve, be honest with your work mates (sometimes they aren't meaning to be insensitive, they just don't understand what it's like dealing with IF - so tell them.) 

If you look back over the posts on here, you'll see we all go through a bitter stage, where we just can't be around pregnant women. It hurts too much. The pain always remains, but you'll find you have days when you can cope with it. You'll even have days when you can genuinely feel happy for your pregnant friends/workmates (but not today!!!).

Time is a great healer - butg sometimes it needs a helping hand. Put yourself first, and look after yourself above all others (its not being selfish, it's called self-preservation ). This is your time now, you need to grieve. Others will understand, and if they don't, then they're not worth you wasting your time on them.  We're always here, for the bad days as well as the good.

Take care.

Helen xxx


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## owenl

I found out today that my pal I mentioned earier in this post has lost her baby.  I know I had mixed feelings about her being pg but I'm absolutely devastated for her as similar to me she had a bit of spotting then red blood, went to hospital had blood checks etc and it seemed OK but she couldn't get a scan cos it was the weekend.  Today blood has stopped, I've been telling her it's probably nothing to worry about and she finds out tho she thought she was now 11 weeks the baby died at 8 weeks - that was the same as me so it's brought it all back but now I feel I want to support her through it but with the weather she is snowed in at Livingston and all I can offer is a phone call and I really just want to give her a   especially with her being on her own, at least I had DH to help me through things initially!


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## laurainhk

Helen,
you started a very soulful thread, albeit a painful one to read and contribute to.
I am going through a lot of soul-searching at the moment, and it's the thread where i feel most at home, and where i can open myself knowing that those who read this are either still grieving or moving on with their lives, one little step at a time.

I am 46 and after three failed FET with donors' embryos, a few months ago i started to feel fertility treatments fatigue, and wonder whether it's time to give up on the dream of ever becoming a mother. I feel as if my life has been put on stand-by, while i am chasing this elusive baby that i may never meet, and after all....maybe i was never meant to be mother.My desire to have children didn't kick in when i was in my 20s and early 30s, it started the moment i turned 35....when i finally married a great guy i was madly in love with. Unfortunately after trying unsuccessfully for 5 years, we were torn apart by infertility-induced depression. I started to feel insecure, anxious, the usual symptoms. The positive, strong, confident woman  he had married became a nervous wreck who didn't want to face life without a child. Nothing mattered anymore. If i couldn't get pregnant, then i didn't see the point of staying married.I wanted to be free, travel, live only for the day. Making plans for the future became impossible to me. I became quite self-destructive.
Ten years on, i am still questioning everything about my life. Nothing came easy to me since i discovered that i couldn't conceive. At times i felt like infertility had crippled me, someone who had to re-learn stuff that able-bodied people take for granted...and the results i achieved were far from stellar, especially on the social front, as i became more private, more introverted, almost bitter.
Now because of this sort of personality change, i question whether i can ever be a good parent, given my social anxiety. 
Maybe it's time to start a new chapter in my life, one that takes into account my psychological state and my age, instead of denying them in the hope that motherhood would make everything perfect, which i doubt.

I am doing a one-year yoga teacher training course and for the first time in many years i am passionate about learning something new, something that integrates body, mind and spirit. Indian philosophy is providing so many amazing insights into life, that i start to see myself in a completely different light, as part of an integrated whole, rather than as a individual desperately trying to leave a legacy through reproduction. I am more honest about myself and the reasons why i want a child, and i acknowledge that some of the reasons are actually pretty silly.

Why do i want a baby? To be honest, i am not even interested in babies. I have always dreamed of being the kind of parent that i never had, open-minded, respectful of my child's personality, supportive and inspiring...in short, the type of teacher that i  like to think i am to my students. So, maybe the legacy i will leave behind has nothing to do with  children...we do touch people's lives everyday, and that might be all that really matters in the end.

Sorry about the long post. I wish all the wonderful women on this thread a great festive season, despite all the hurdles we encounter on our path.


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## caroline9550

Laurainhk    - sorry you're having a difficult time but it sounds like you are turning a corner by focusing your energy on positive things, good for you.  I can relate to much of what you wrote in your post - especially not seeing the point in being married if you can't have a family.  I can't tell you what a relief it was to see that others have thought like this.  I am still with my DH and feel guilty about these thoughts and am trying to work through never having my own biological child.  Haven't ruled out adoption.  So you are right - you can reach out and touch people in so many ways. Take care.

Caroline x


----------



## laurainhk

Hi Caroline!
It definitely helps to read the stories of those who are trying to find meaning in their lives after coming back to themselves, leaving the battlefield where so many battles against infertility were lost. 
I do believe that we have to acknowledge that a lot of us suffer from a sort of post-traumatic stress  disorder. Like veterans, we have a hard time adjusting to "normal life". I feel scarred, think-skinned, insecure. 

I too went through a phase in which i was blaming others for my infertility, i couldn't accept my fate. Then i blamed myself and all the life choices i made in the past. 
Now i am coming to terms with who i am, a person who is trying to become whole again. I often think about the teenager i was, when no thought of family and children crossed my mind, and yet i was happy, looking into the future thinking about all the fantastic experiences life would have in store for me....and none of those imaginary experiences revolved around motherhood.  

I feel drawn to older women because of their wisdom, and many of them are finding themselves at a point in life where their children (if they have children) are no longer central to their identity. I also spend time with good friends who are child-free due to life circumstances, or personal choice, and we often comment on the fact that if any of us had a child we wouldn't be able to spend the day hiking, go to a weekend yoga workshop, or travel to remote places with very basic accommodation.

For the past three years i have been in a relationship with a guy who doesn't want children (and yet i tried to have one through embryo donation). We have two homes, but we spend a lot of time together, cooking, going to restaurants and bars, gigs, cinemas, theatres, etc.  we offer each other a lot of support, though he can't really understand why i curse my infertility (he thinks my infertility is a blessing as we don't need to use contraception and my ex-dancer-now yogi body is not going to be affected by pregnancy)

Yoga is also helping with my hormones, as i feel more grounded and experience less severe PMS than when i was desperately trying to get pregnant.

I still find it difficult to be around children, especially kids aged 6 to 12, as they are naturally drawn to me, take me by the hand and want to share their secret world with me. They must feel that i am not like their parents, and for some mysterious reason they trust me. I once broke down in tears when a 10 y/o asked me if she could come and stay with me because i was "not like her mum" and since i had no children, and her mum already had three, she said it would be better for everybody, she could have her own room,  i could walk her to school and all her classmates would be jealous because i was "cooler" than other mums. 
Needless to say i had to stop all contact with her and her family. I just couldn't handle it.

Maybe in another life i will have the children i didn't have in this one...and i should make the most of my child-free status, enjoying all the opportunities that are offered to those who have no dependents.


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## helen6887

Wow Laurainhk, you're IF history really blew me away. You write so insightfully, and so many of the emotions you've been through really made sense to me. 

I'm so glad you are making the most out of your life (love the idea of becoming a Yoga teacher- so calm and relaxing). Step 7 , of our recovery programme talks about rechanneling our 'mothering-energy' and it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing. Well done!  

It's not easy is it? We all have 'off' days - but it really does help the rest of us 'poor-souls' to read that people do come through IF - and life does become bearable, even good, despite not having kids.

Looking forward to reading more from you.

Helen xxx


----------



## Guest

Hi Laurainhk,

Your post is so insightful and inspiring, thank you so much for writing it all down. Your comment about being a teenager and enjoying life without thinking about a family really struck a chord with me. I often think about this, and also how even in my 20s, although knowing I would want a family, I enjoyed so much life with my then-boyfriend (now DH), being in love, studying, travelling, starting new jobs, exploring all the experiences of the adult world. It's true, I did think we'll have children when we settle down and it was a shock not to be able to, but still my happiness did not depend on having children. I sometimes burst into tears lamenting the person I was, the life I had, the way I used to feel life is all before me -- now I so often feel it's all behind me, I don't even know if I can be a parent (we're approved for adoption) because I don't feel young and energetic anymore but very often feel pessimistic, tired, backward-looking ...

Your learning to be a yoga teacher is an inspiring choice. I am sure you will - and already do - touch the lives of people around you, students, friends, and now us here on this thread, all feel blessed to have met you (in person or virtual). 

I try to make sense of my life now. After a couple of very difficult years, loosing my father to cancer, supporting family members through hard times, going through a 6th m/c and the adoption process, I now feel drained regarding the 'maternal'side of me. We are approved and waiting to be matched but nothing happened yet, and both DH and me feel often so tired of the the whole thing that we wonder why we bothered, shouldn't we just stay as we are, especially when we feel not so young anymore (me 41 he 40, but it's also a matter of how we feel in ourselves). We do try and do many other things and have many interests together as well as apart, we volunteer, play music, I've even taken up knitting again after not knitting since I was a teenager and loving it! And then somehow we feel that maybe we've dispensed so much energy in trying to conceive, trying to fight off m/cs, trying to be approved for adoption, that now we have no more energy for parenting   

Sorry for the confused post, but mainly wanted to thank Lorainehk and all the other lovely ladies on here for sharing their thoughts and feelings and for giving me a perfect space to share how I feel. And may we all find peace and a purpose to our lives, whatever this may be, in the new year.

Rivka x


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## tribble

Hello
I don't know if you ladies are all still posting on here. I hope so. I have read all the posts from start to finish today.
It is Christmas eve and I got my 3rd negative test result this morning, after ICSi & I knew this was my final tx. I also know we won't adopt (I am a fan of adoption & have 2 fab adopted nephews, but my DH already has a daughter and I just don't see us doing it). So today is the first day of the rest of my life where I know I will never have children. I said to DH last night, while I felt this TX had not worked, some small part of me enjoyed the feeling of the last night where I had some hope left & could wonder what it might be like.
My DH has virtually no moving sperm hence needing ICSI. He luckily enough had a daughter when he was married before but he had been sent for a test even back then - she was a lucky prize - now he is 15 years older counts are much worse. Ironically, as he has a child was the reason we have had to pay private for all our txs! Thank god DH has tried this with me; he wanted to have a child with me out of love for me, but as he already had a child it was much less of a yearning and he could have coped without any of this trying/tx agony. 

Before I even thought of trying to have children I  watched my dear sis go through similar with ectopic pg; two failed IVF & found that incredibly emotional. I wonder now if I did not allow myself to go ahead & feel I wanted to have children as I felt she should ahve a chance to do it first, as the eldest??

What so many of you have said sounds so right to me - about other people's pregnancies & children, and feeling like a freak. Someone else wrote about moving on because you need to for your sanity and not just cos of money or medical reasons. I do feel like that this time; plus docs told us that if you fail 3 txs, it is much elss likely to change after that - this has really helped me draw a line so that we knew this was last one before we started. 

This week I have had to support my colleague who thought she was having a MC, turns out she was fine which is great but of course I will now be dealing with my own feelings every single day until she goes on mat leave, I never told anyone at work apart from my boss; so she can't know, but she was saying stuff that I;ve felt like "i'm not a bad person" but she kept saying it can't be happening again I;ve been pregnant FOUR TIMES! (she already has a little boy) and I just thought well I never have been!! I know if I told her she'd be appalled & she would be kind to me - but sometimes the kindness is not what I want at work I would just end up a teary mess all the time, there must be one area of my life where I can manage & do OK...

I can't rush through the stages although it is tempting.
So my losses - which are as raw as anything but believe me I've prepared some of these earlier.

- I will never see the test line saying positive
- I will never get the stirrings and anticipation
as I am about to go into labour
- I will never get tosee my child grow and achieve things
-I will never get to give all the immense love I have stored up in me to my child
- I will never get to share the joy of having a child with my DH (so jealous of his ex for that one, she has got something with him that I will never have)
- I will never have the chance to help my child if they wanted me to give them advice or any kind of help at any age
- I will never be able to celebrate my child's birthdays and special occasions
- I will never be able to teach my child to read
_ I will never be able to buy baby clothes for my child, or in fact buy a gift for my son/daughter, something that I know they would really love and then have the joy of watching them open it
-I will never be able to enjoy my child's adventures in the world
- I will never be able to ring my mum and say I can make her a granny; I really really imagined myself doing that today
I will never watch my lovely stepdaughter be a big sister she would have been great at that
I will never be able to tell my step daughter that even now I;ve had my own baby, I still love her as I always did and that won't change
- I will never be able to take my child to some of the most amazing places in the country/ the world and show her all the things I think are great
- I will never be able to contribute to society by bringing a good person into the world who can do good stuff for others and make the world go round better
- I will never be the important person, the one who is pregnant, who everyone makes a fuss over
- I will never be able to say oh well stuff it I'm going on maternity leave, work can sort itself out for once
- I will never be able to relax around other people in case they are about to announce more pregnancies
- I will never fit in with some of the people I have known for years, who all have children and I dont
- I will never get to tell my child that I love them every day

I think that is too long a list, oh well. I didn't marry my DH until I was 36 and we were only together for about a year before we decided to get married; I think I always thought I would like to have children - in fact my long held fantasy was to have twins - but it was really only the weekend that I got married that this urge to have children with my DH rushed over me. We had loads of children at our wedding. 

You ladies are amazing you have really helped me today I am so glad I found this thread. I hope people are still on here. 
I am so sorry some of the relationships have broken up. I am going to be determined not to let that happen if at all possible, it is such a strain with guilt, anger, sadness, but we are good and I want us to stay good together, after all that was the whole point in the first place. 
Have a peaceful christmas all, many thanks
tribble


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## caroline9550

Hi Tribble,

You are not alone on here - people tend to drop in and out of this thread.  I'm sorry that you find yourself here and at this time of year      Your 'I will never' list was very moving and I could relate to much of what you had written.  As regarding people at work not knowing - I told most people in my office but still get some who are really insensitive which I find worse because they know, so in many ways I wish I had kept it quite because at least you can forgive them for not knowing and coming out with remarks which twist the knife a little more.  It must have been so very difficult for you to help your colleague at work but sounds like you were very strong and I'm sure she's greatful having you to support her.  Keep talking to your husband so he know's your feelings and you can get the support you need. Take care.

Caroline xx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

I have been reading your posts for a couple of months now but have never actually posted myself before. You have all been through so much and are it is so sad to think there are so many of us in similar situations.

I am due to turn 40 in January and whilst I have no problem with the age itself I never thought I would be 40 and not a mum and no chance of being a mum in the future either.

I have a fanatastic DH (he is 47 now)who I didnt meet until I was 32 and we married 2 years later. He has a son from a previous marriage who is now 14 and we have always got on fine and I do love him but its just not the same as he doesnt look on me as his mum as he already has one.

After a year of trying for a baby naturally we decided to seek help as we were not getting any younger and had 3 ICSi cycles all of which were a BFN. The quality of our embryos was always a grade 1 or high grade 2 but I am a poor responder and never produce many eggs. The most I ever had the first time was 7 and it has lessened each time since then and the last time in 2009 I only had 3 eggs retrieved. We had to pay for all of our treatment because my DH has a son and as im sure you all know its very expensive. 

After the 3rd go dh didn't want to have any further treatment and I was devastated. We talked and talked and decided we would look into adoption as my dh felt we had reached the end of the line with the tx.We did go and see an adoption agency but after meeting with them and discussing things dh said that he was sorry and that this wouldnt be right for him after all. I do understand this as he already has a child and it is different for him.

I struggled to cope with this and he agreed to give tx one last go and we threw evrything at it including the chicago tests for imune issues.They came back with very slight issues and additional drugs just to be on the safe side but nothing really significant that should stop the treatment working. I was convinced this time that it would work because it just had to and I also didn't have any spotting whereas on previous cycles I had. But  I still had a BFN.

Devastated all over again and this time knowing that there would be no further treatment and this would be the end of the road as dh was adamant that he didn't want to continue with IVF

Surrounded by friends and family all moving forwards with their own families I feel like i'm stuck even a year and a half after the last go. I get so jealous and I hate it because ive always been a kind, generous person and I don't like feeling this way. I feel completely inadequate and I don't think this is helped by the fact I have a part time job as a receptionist which I don't mind but its just not very fulfilling and its not a career to throw myself into. I'm surrounded by mums too that have much better careers than me. My sil is high up at a university and another friend is a lawyer. I just feel like I can't be a mum and i'm only a receptionist also so what have I achieved? I know there is only me that can change the career but I just don't know where to start as I always thought my future when I met the right man would be looking after my family.

I love my dh dearly but its like this just doesn't affect him now as he is perfectly happy with what he has because he has me and his son and although I love him I resent him for this too!! Why can't I just be the same. We have a good relationship, nice house, nice friends and do nice things. Why can't I just make the most of what I have instead of wasting time dreaming of something that is so obviously not going to be? He has said that he loves me but won't stand in my way or make it difficult for me if I need to pursue the family and go find someone who is willing to take things much further. I don't want to leave him because I do love him and it was about us having our family together too but it scares me that if I make the wrong decision now I will end up regretting it in later life. Great choices eh! I lose either way . I'm scared about the future and if i'm on my own and no children or grandchildren who care about me what will happen to me. This is probably silly I know as none of us know what our future holds.

We got a puppy back in March as I thought it would help chanel some of that nurturing and love that is going to waste and although I love her dearly its still not the same.

Sorry for the long message and rambling but its just all come out.I am okay somedays and then like so many of you say its just hits you on others. I think the reason for this today is that I will be entering another New Year and nothing has changed other than that I am a year older 


Thank you all for listening and I wish all of you all the luck in the world in acvhieving your dreams in 2011.

Sam xxxxxxxxxx


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## helen6887

Hi Ladies. Let me be the first to say 'Happy New Year!!'  

Thanks so much to all the ladies who have posted on this thread throughout 2010. Your support has been invaluable, I really couldn't have got through the last year without it. I really hope we all find some peace and contentment in 2011.   God knows, we deserve it.

Let's keep supporting eachother.

lots of           

Helen xxxx


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## tribble

Caroline, thanks for your message, made me feel less lonely. I may well tell friend at work at some point when I can handle it. I have told just one friend that our 3rd & last tx didn't work - a sensitive soul who has been supportive but not always asking - she started crying on the phone when I did, bless. 

Sam - how similar are we? I almost thought my DH had been on here writing up a similar tale to help me feel less alone. The stepchild, the older DH, met when you were older, paying for own TX, facing up to the big 4-0 in February; all the same issues! 
We already decided not to go for adoption. Maybe we would have talked about it for longer if Dh didn't already have a daughter - but it is a big commitment, I think much more than having a biological child. He just doesn't need to. If I'm honest I don't know if I would have the commitment (which is really honest!). 
Already having a stepchild I think gives alot of bonuses, you can be involved in someone's life & see them grow & do stuff & support them (Although it is not the same you are still a adult figure who is a key person in their life). On the other hand me & Dh can't decide to move abroad or go & volunteer in africa or any other funky things we might imagiine doing, cos there are commitments there with her! Bit of a catch-22. Child-free, but not really child-free! Overall I think it is better to have her. 
I see my DH being such a fabulous dad & I so wanted to do it with him myself  

The end of the road is a tough one to face & since Xmas eve I've had some OK days & some really sad ones. I have planned a couple of holidays. I have done some things which relax and calm me like big long walks in scenic places. But the minute some small thing challenges me I go to pieces, don't know how I;m going to cope with work. 
I have been looking at rescue dogs on websites but burst into tears when DH was supportive but practical like how can we look after it when we are at work - burst into tears & sobbed for an hour nearly. Of course it was not about getting a dog!!  
And like you say, I know it is not the same anyway. I have the same fears about being old & no-one remembering me. My main problem now is not wanting to see my friends, who don't know I;ve done this TX and that this was the last one, I fear it is a complete conversation stopper & while I know people would be generally supportive I fear they would say something to offend without meaning to, & I struggle to forget such things being a bit over-sensitive at the best of times... used to think I was a good friend!

Sam have you been to any counselling about this? I have always taken up the 2 free sessions included in each tx. I went on my own the most recent time as she felt I needed to that I had some different things to express than DH, which was quite good. Have not taken it up this time & didn't intend to, not wanting to step foot back in the clinic again with the pictures of smiling babies (the successes) all the way up the stairs. But having read on here what helen & others saying about the counselling I think I may as well take up the last 2 sessions, rather than let it fester. Not sure what I want to say but a priority is to just get it out; also to try & keep together with DH - all this is a risk for relationships, as sadly others on this thread have found out. So I will book that tomorrow. Easier not to & bury it but like you say longer term is a worry. 
Dreading 40th birthday as feel I have not done anything or achieved anything in my life, & don't even want to talk about it if anyone mentions it - am going to be away on holiday for that. 

Sam I bet there are things you have achieved, I bet you are a cool stepmum & valued at work as well as your DH loving you as his wife. But I do feel what you are saying totally & I do understand. 
I hope the good days gradually outnumber the bad ones; I am hoping so. 

Helen thank you for your new year message, I hope it can get happier & happeir for everyone, thanks all for the thread  
love tribble 
x


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## Sam1971

Hi tribble

Thank you so much for your reply. I have been feeling so alone for so long and although I wish nobody else ever had to go through this it is comforting to feel like your not on your own.

I agree it is better to have our step children in our lives is bonus even if sometimes it can be bittersweet too.

I know what you mean too re the funky things! My DH was offered a job in Australia a couple of years ago but like you we couldn't consider it because of his son(not saying that we would have gone anyway like you but it does make you think twice about the decisions in our lives)

I don't know if this helps but my next door neighbour has a dog and because he is not too big they have a dog flap for him so he can let himself in and out through the day. They love him to bits and he seems perfectly happy with the situation. Just a thought that this may be a way to get your bundle of fluff!!

I had a couple of counselling sessions at the clinic after our 3rd failed attempt but didn't bother last time as i just thought i have to deal with this but maybe that was the wrong decision. One step was to post on here and that as you know I did but I have been thinking about going to see my doctor about seeing if she can put me in touch with somebody. It can't hurt can it.

With regards to your friends that don't already know I am sure they would want to be there for you and sometimes i feel it helps to talk rather than not. I too am over sensitive with comments people make( or are we? after all it is major thing that we are facing) but that is the same for me whether they know or don't know. I worry too much about upsetting other people in case i say something in retaliation to what they say but i think that we are already going through so much pain and hurt that i'm sure they can forgive us?

One thing (or another thing should i say!!) that i do worry about is i don't feel that i am as good a friend anymore  . Its a horrible thing to say but if they are having problems in their lives whether it be family,work,money or whatever it may be i just want to scream at them its not as bad as what i am going through!!!...
Thats terrible isn't it as all of their problems are just as important to them .

I hope you are going somewhere nice for your birthday? We too are away with some friends in this country so at least it will take my mind off it. I hope yours does for you too wherever you are.

I so want to be the nice happy go lucky person i used to be but maybe that's not possible anymore : ( Only time will tell I guess but i hope so one day

Thank you again for taking the time to reply. And heres to 2011 bringing much happier times for all of us on here.


Love Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## geraniums

Hello Ladies   

Hope you don't mind if I join you.  It's a big thing to start posting on this board, isn't it?  However, here I am and I guess it's time to do what the board says: move on and accept.  I have read lots of your posts and can only say how grateful I am for everyone's candour and honesty; it makes it so much better to know that there are other people out there who know how you feel and are feeling the same way too.  

Like the most recent posters Sam and Tribble I am facing 40 next month and have a 13 yr old step-daughter from DH's previous marriage.  Tribble, the line where you said 'child-free, but not really child-free' is exactly how I feel.  We're in the position where we simply can't afford any more treatment - we're totally broke and in debt - but also realise how much of a toll it has taken on both of us; physically and emotionally.  DH felt that he couldn't face another BFN and unfortunately for me, tx has the effect of making my immune system crash after every go and I end up ill for months afterward - am only just better after last go.  (Having raised NK cells, this might seem a bit bizarre as you'd think I wouldn't get ill, but there you go...  More scientific minds than mine on the immunology board have explained why this happens, so who am I to argue?)  So, over the Christmas period we made our final decision and here I am.

Like many others I'm not bothered by turning 40, it's just that I didn't envisage myself being in this position at that age and I so desperately would love a child of my own.  I am surrounded by a ridiculously fertile family - 10 babies have been born between my sister, sil and 4 cousins (all of whom are like me in their mid to late 30s), in the time we have been trying for 1 - and with one exception all my friends have children too.  I find myself on permanent baby-sitting duties, as I am the only person who doesn't have to worry about their own children!  DH and I find this situation wonderful and incredibly painful at the same time.  We have talked about the fact that perhaps being further away from everyone might help, but we cannot leave as we have the DSD. (I feel selfish just even writing down the fact that we considered moving away from her.)

I find it very difficult to read the lists of things I will never do as a mummy and have to admit that I'm trying very hard not to think about them.  Perhaps I need to take the bull by the horns and buy the book previously mentioned about living without children?  I am currently in the process of telling people that we are giving up and    every time.  A little voice in my head says there's always hope, but I know that I have to be realistic.

DH and I made a New Year's resolution: that we would make a 'Let's Do..' list.  As you all know IF takes over your life, so we decided we would try to get ours back.  We've just begun to write a few things down and as we don't have any money, our list includes free stuff like 'start singing again' (that one's mine), as well as longer term aims like doing a long distance walk.  We hope it's going to help and give our lives a different focus.

Well, thank you for reading ladies.  Wishing you all a happy 2011.

G x


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## still a mum

hi ladies, can i join you too please? 

abit about me, im 28yrs old and have been with dp for 13yrs. in 2004 we had a natural pregnancy after ttc for a few yrs. our dd was born  premature in march 2005. she was a fighter and was going from strength to strength, when she was a month old she died from a hospital infection. they didnt realise she had it and it led to septisemia. we where absolutely gutted.

was ttc for a yr then had tests done and i was diognosed with pcos. my dp is fine. after clomid, metformin, ovarian drilling and numerous other tests we was refered for ivf. had 1st ivf and fell pregnant with twins but miscarried at 8wks.

had 2nd ivf and miscarried early on.

had FET in dec 2010 and unfortunately it didnt work.

i have to save up to go private now and due to my miscarriages they think i have immune issues so its going to be expensive. i think it will take a couple of years to save. im not sure if this is the right thread for me as i do want to try again later on but after reading your messages i thought it would be good for me to come to terms with the fact it is very possible i will never be a mum again.   .

thank you for evryone who has poated here as just reading your storys have really helped me understand my feelings x


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## Sam1971

Hi ladies

Its so sad isn't it , that although we take comfort from knowing we are not alone, that so many of us are suffering from the curse of infertility!. I dont know about the rest of you ladies but untill i was going through it i just didn't realise how bad it was for so many people!

Geraniums -  you are so right that it is a big step to post on here. I had been reading all the other lovely ladies stories for months before finally plucking up the courage to post myself. I guess part of the reason is finally accepting that i needed to try to face that my chance of being a mum is 99% over(only a miracle can make it happen now) and to offer and gain support  from the strong , brave women who post on here.

It sounds like you have a double whammy too though with the treatment making you so poorly 

I too am not really ready to make the list either but i have ordered the books Never to Be a Mother and Beyond Childlessnes and figure i will go from there  . The list is a very difficult and emotional thing to write and i guess you will know if and when the time is right for you. For me its not yet even though i know i need to move forward. One step at a time i guess.

Your idea of a Let's Do list is fantastic! What a briiliant way to move forward and the singing sounds good too! I'm a bit of a singstar queen (well i think i am !) but thats definitely as far as it goes for me so good luck with that .

Still a mum - oh i am so sorry for you both  . What a terrible ordeal you have been through and are obviously still going through. i don't really know what to say as i can't imagine what you are feeling for the loss of your baby girl. I wish you all the luck in the world for the future whatever you decide to do 

To all the other ladies who post on here i hope you are all okay and hope 2011 is your year.

Love Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## shades

Hi Helen
I read your post and i felt so emotionally related to it all. I am 44 been through natural pregnancy with no heart beat and  then tubal surgery to open up blocked fallopian tubes without succuess and then 4 attempts at ivf a roller coaster since the age of 22. Ive recently discovered a clinic in london arcg who specialises with older women ivf and went for consultation and was on the monitoring period when the doc did a scan and told me i have hydrasalpinx in my left tube this cud have been there for years and no-one picked it up was told to have the tube removed but the operation did not go to plan my tube could not be removed as it was to close to the bowel so it was just drained and clipped with 2 filshie clips applied to it but this the operation 8 weeks ago ive been experiencing pain in the area which is unbearable climbing up the stairs and driving to the point where i am now considering getting the clips removed. 
I have since had a lot of time to think about what i was doing to my body and like all childless women feel so let down and feel like a failure in many ways and dont want to waste any more time and money only to gain pain and need to be realistic about my chances of ivf at the age of nearly 45 for both myself and for any future child to give it the quality of life wud not be fair on either of us so hard as its been ive really tried to come to terms with the decision i do not want to persue this anymore. Ive decided that both me and the hubby need to prepare for our pensions and do the things we can like travelling. I am having counselling for feeling like a failure but everything happens for a reason and this was just not meant to be.


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## helen6887

Shades - I'm so sorry to see that you've had a really hard time of it. It must be awful to have to undergo all that painful surgery, and still feel like your body has let you down.   You've obviously tried every step you could in your attempts to have a child. I'm so sorry to see it hasn't worked out. 

I think you're doing the right thing in having counselling, it doesn't really help you 'get-over' IF, but it does help to prepare you for a life without children and makew you see that it doesn't all have to be bleak and dark. There are some good days to still be had!!  

I look forward to reading your progress, and would also like to say a big hello to all the new ladies posting on this thread. Supporting each other really does help.  

Helen xxx


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## tribble

Hi ladies, 

Sam I hope you are hanging in there still - great that you have a birthday plan
We have decided to go skiing and got a pretty good cheap deal - flight is at 6am on my birthday so there won't be time or energy to stress about it then we'll be seeing some snow and I hope sunshine & mountains always fill me with a good sense of wellbeing, so I am glad we booked it. I am glad we will be away from the world as we know it!

Geraniums; and Sam , do your own list when you feel the time is right for you. For me I did it on the day of the final negative test cos I had been thinking about them for a while so somehow felt better putting myself through it. But - you are much braver than me telling people about giving up - I am just avoiding people, phone calls & social occasions; told one friend who was lovely but can barely get the words out... maybe it is because it makes it more real...
Getting your life back sounds great. we have just found out we got an allotment so we have been down there digging & sorting which was more my DH's wish than mine but it was somehow nice & therapeutic, maybe that will be good if we can create something down there together amidst all the weeds. We also said about a long distance path to walk the other day!


Still a mum - really sorry for your losses - I hope you can do other threads as well that will keep your spirits up, as it's not over yet by the sounds of it and if you are still trying you must stay positive, but it is hard with such a long time to save up. Such a bummer that you have to pay now, at least you had some paid for, but you have to believe it is worth it. Lots of luck

Shades, I think you have made a brave decision, the clinics can really trigger that hope all over again, which is so hard to let go of. I too also thought about what ages we would be when the child was .... yrs whatever, various ages. And felt that this try was the last one to fit in with what I thought was fair. 

My acupuncture lady wanted me to go for another session but I didn't feel like it, then she texted me talking about the natural therapy clinic near here & how great they do with people and we could go there they could help us & try again blah blah blah. I was so angry, and thought well all the countless acu sessions didn't work for me did they? I think this is one of the main reasons I have been avoiding telling people as I really really do not want solutions from people - "can't you try again?" "can't you adopt then" "I knew someone who succeeded on their 4th try" - I don't want to hear it as it makes me doubt myself & us & the decisions we have made. I probably will wonder what if? by myself; I don't need help!

I have got the counselling next week, nearly bottled it but having suggested it to Sam I felt I have to turn up & go for it! it is timely as I really am Mrs Angry at the minute, my tolerance for everyone and everything outside of my DH & parents is at an all-time low. And - forgot to mention I am pre-menstrual pre- the period I didn't want to have. Am usually the worst PMT lady I know for hideous no self-esteem and anxiety & dark thoughts, and having had my hormones mucked about with last month or two, this one's usually the worst. And my work chum is going public about her pregnancy imminently. Probably if I can get through the next couple of  weeks without jumping off the bridge or going into meltdown , the rest of it should probably end up being ok  

Sorry for such a negative me-post ladies. 
Helen, I want to be ready to move on to the 'what were the reasons I wanted children' part, but am going to wait for my hormones to settle a little bit first. 
Thanks so much for startng this thread, love to all, take care of yourselves


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

I hope you all did something nice at the weekend.

Hi tribble - i was doing okay but then had a bit of a meltdown at the weekend  It seems so childish really but i got so hurt and upset  about it. 

Dh's brother and his wife live about an hour away from us and we have always been really close always doing things to gether and we stay at theirs quite a bit especially when we have my stepson as he lives just around the corner from them. We also have 2 close friends who have got quite close to them over the past year or so through things that we have organised and they live near to us.

At the weekend i had a text from my friend saying that they were going to somewhere with her stepdaughter near to where my bil and sil live and that my sil had invited them to stay. I was so uoset and hurt  as we had not been invited. I couldn't help it but my texts to her for the rest of the day were quite short and basic. I dont know if she sensed something because she text later on to say we were welcome to go and join them which then upset me even more as my friend was inviting me to my sil house but my sil had not said a word about us going!

I felt so left out and as if they didnt need us now and were quite happy the four of them together without including us! My sil text later to say that they were staying with them but she would still call me later as originally planned but still didnt invite us to join them. I'm not saying we would have gone but the fact of not being included made me feel completely isolated and on the outside looking in. They have never done anything before without us.

My dh doesn't understand why i got so upset and quite rightly said that we don't own them! I know that but i just felt so hurt and left out. I feel on the outside looking in most of the time with other things (you know what i mean) that i just can't bear that my friends are overlooking me too. He said that i shopuldn't say anything to them but i don't want it to eat away at me 

Iwas quite looking forward to my birthday but they will all be coming along with 2 other couples and i'm worried now that they will have this click going on together and i know that will make me want to withdraw and not join in which then makes things worse 

Am i going mad   do you think? Dh said that i need to go to counselling and i know hes right so thats the next step after my birthday i think.

Tribble - good luck with yours and I hope you manage to get through work okay 
Your very brave with the skiing!!..I bet its fab but i'm slightly accident prone so ive never been 
hope to catch up with you again soon.

Hope all you ladies on here have a lovely week.

Take care
Samxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## helen6887

Hiya ladies. how are we all.

Sam and Tribble - could really relate to your last two posts. In the early 'moving on' days, I too thought I must be going mad   and really couldn't fathom what seemed to be everyone elses total insensitivity to my situation. I honestly thought if I just let rip, and show them one iota of how I  really felt - they would surely wither and die under my wrath! I was SOOOOO angry!!!  
I'm pleased to say - thank god I'm past that stage. I no longer want to tear the head off every one I meet, I'm no longer that angry, ANGRY woman. I'm almost back to my old self and the good news is - so will you be, one day soon in the future. Sam you won't believe me, but your Sil is not meaning to be insensitive - it appears that way to you because you are very vunerable right now, and feeling uber sensitive. I've been there, I know. It doesn't make it less painful being told this, but your DH is right - counselling would help. What you ladies are feeling is perfectly normal (just look at some of the other ladies 'angry' posts). The other thing that helps is telling people just how bad IF is, and ask them to be a little more sensitive to your feelings. If they love you - they'll be patient. They need to know that the 'angry woman' is a temporary fixture - like a wounded animal, anger is our only form of defence. Look forward to the day that you can return to your old personalities - they're still there, I promise.    

On a lighter note - I too am about to celebrate my 40th birthday in  March. Perhaps we should organise a group party/meet up. Anyone interested?

Helen xxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

I hope you are all okay

Helen - thankyou for your reply. It did make me feel like i wasn't quite as mad  as i thought.

I guess she didn't mean to upset me and i think she would be upset if she knew she had but it did make me feel so left out. I am super sensitive at the minute and feel sometimes like everyone and everything is against me . I don't think i will say anything this time unless she mentions it but if i feel like that again i think i will have to be honest about how i feel.

I did make a positive step yesterday and booked an appointment at the doctors for the 31st so fingers crossed she will be able to help me and put me in touch with someone.

A meet up sounds really good  this website is great but its not the same as being with people in the same situation in person. I live in the Midlands but would travel if need be.

I probably won't post again till after the weekend and then ill be the big 40 . But hey they say thats when life begins so will wait and see.

Have a good weekend all of you.
Love Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## tribble

Hi there
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Sam   hope it was what you wanted 
What a shame you had all that with your family/friends before though - I think it is about being super-sensitive to everything and already feeling left out. I hope everyone made just the right kind of fuss of you on your birthday to let you know you are loved & celebrated. Well done for booking your doc appt, good luck. 

Helen, I do feel glad you can tell us the internal beasts of anger will pass through us and we'll get out the other side. I think it will feel so much nicer than now. I would love to be my old self again I definitely was not perfect example of emotional maturity but I was alot better than right now. 

My counselling on Tuesday was good, so glad I went. I explained some of the awful awful angry feelings & thoughts. Thought I had told most of these shamefully to DH but he reckoned I hadn't all of them so I guess it was good that we were both there. I explained I can't face talking to many (or any!) of my friends about this & she suggested getting DH to help me out i.e. answer the phone, say I still love them but not in a good place to chat about it all just yet. She was basically giving permission to go with what we feel is best i.e. not feel obliged to fit in with others' expectations, that really helped me. Except I texted my buddy who lives abroad to say I'm not up for a phone catch up & she rang me anyway, then I felt bad for sticking to it & saying I'd ring her back another time! SHe is obviously being persistent & kind so I will speak to her at some point, I am sure she knows what it is all about. 
The counsellor reminded me the anger is part of the grieving process and you have to allow it as it is a stage that has to happen, before you can move on. Having done this in my social worker training I of course should know better, but we never apply these things to ourselves!

I've been really tired & tearful since that counselling; I did also tell my boss about it as I felt I was snappy & not working very well, he  was lovely as always& said my work was doing really well & no difference to him and to take some time off. So am going to spend a long overdue afternoon catching up with my mum I need to tell her about this last tx & where we are at now and I now feel ready to do this. 

Was feeling a bit like someone has got it in for me as went to dry ski slope with hub who fell on his thumb, it swelled up & now we have to go back on Tuesday as he may need an op, in which case our birthday ski hols will be off; I guess we have to find something else to do but sometimes it all just feels like everything you try does not work out!! I can't even show my disappointment about this to Dh as he already feels bad! Feeling everything is against you, I agree with that Sam!
But - I know there are people having much worse things to deal with out there & trying to keep some perspective. 

Anyway, we are now sorting out a nice holiday to go on with DstepD after her exams, feels a bit better to me to be spending some thought & money on the people that are here, rather than on imaginary future things ...
Hope everyone is OK thanks for this thread all xxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

Hope you are all okay.

Thank you Tribble for the birthday wish  . The incident with family and friends does still bother me a little but not quite as bad as when i first found out. I did have a lovely time on my birthday and everyone went to alot of effort for me all weekend and i do really appreciate that.It feels weird to think that i am now 40!!. It used to sound soooooo old when i was in my twenties but i certainly don't feel old so i guess it is just a number.

I'm glad your counselling went well   and i guess we do always worry about how we are affecting other people when really we are going throufgh so much already we should just be concentrating on ourselves. easier said than done i know!!...I am sure your friend will undferstand and is there for you when you you are ready to talk.

So sorry re the holiday  We so need things to look forward to don't we.. Hope your DH is okay and his thumb mends quickly so you can plan your next one.

I have a party at home on Saturday for family and friends that didn't come away with us so looking forward to that. then an appointment with the doctor on Monday to see about counselling  One step at a time i guess.

Have a good week all of you. hope it brings some nice things.

Take care
Sam xxxxxxxxxxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

I hope you all had a nice weekend  

I had another party Saturday to celebrate my 40th for friends and family that didn't come away with us. It was good but we had about 35 people in our house (inc children) that all insisted on standing in the kitchen so it was very cosy!!..My friend who lives in Canada came over specially and suprised me as i had no idea she was coming which was great .. I enjoyed it but again got a bit upset at one point over something that was just so silly i'm not even gonna say what it was as i'm so embarrassed .I'm sure people must think i'm nuts 

Went to the doctors on Monday to speak to her about organising counselling. She was lovely and seemed quite sympathetic to the way I am feeling. She said she would put me in touch with a group called Let's Talk? Not sure if any of you have heard of them or had any dealings with them? She said it works in a funny way and that they have group get togethers where its's more like a seminar with 200 people and the speaker basically gives advice on self help and how to turn negatives into positives and feel better about yourself . I said I wasn't sure if that was what I was looking for and told her I don't mind a group session but with people in the same situation and a much smaller group. She said I should explain this to them and also if I wanted one to one counselling which I do but because of the way the system works I could be waiting up to 6 months for this 
I guess I will just have to wait for the call and go from there and i have to go back and see the doctor in 3 weeks to let her know how I am getting on.

My friend who came from Canada left me a journal as a present as she thought it would help to put my thoughts and feelings down on paper. she always writes one but says i always have to end with a positive   She very much believes in the power of positive thinking so I figure i'll give it a go. can't hurt can it 

Haven't stared reading my books yet but am working up to it. Bit scared actually but know I have to

Have a lovely week all of you.

Take care
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## tribble

Hi all just a quickie Sam your friend sounds lovely, what a good idea re the journal. Glad you had  good party. Let us know what else you find out or think about Let's Talk!
I saw a chum on Saturday & spoke to her a bit about all this stuff (first time I've felt able to chat to a mate). She brought me tulips & told me that by stressing about what other people think or might say to me if I chat to them, I am adding in an extra layer of stress for myself! Wise friend. I feel a tad better so might be able to chat to more people soon. 
Work is really stressy so its all been feeling quite glum.
I cancelled a get together with school buddies, I still can't face a conversation about 'so, whats your news?' or a big group of people; but had supportive messages saying they're thinking about me but giving space. 
Have been so unable to even begin talking about it, but feel like I am making a start.
Sam, I bet the upset thing would be something we all would understand!

Still no holiday organised but hub is upstairs now internetting like crazy to find something we can do instead of the skiing!

Hope everyone is OK xxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies 

Tribble I haven't heard from let's talk yet but i'll let you know how i get on when i do. Hopefully it won't be too long.

That's really good that you had a chat with a friend. I am sure the more you do it the easier it will become and i think it is true what she says re adding an extra stress level to yourself. I don't want to scare anybody and i am not saying this would happen to everyone who bottle's things up but a male friend of mine and his wife had fertility treatment (not full IVF)and she fell pregnent twice but sadly miscarried twice too. They then went on to have IVF and now have a baby girl who is 6 months old. The sad thing is, through all they were going through they didn't speak to anyone about it and kept all their grief bottled up (this was more his wife's choice) and he has now had a mental breakdown . He is not living in the marital home and i am not sure if they will ever get back to where they were. So i do believe that to talk about it even if only to a select few people it can ease the burden slightly.

I understand the get together with school budies completely and i don't think any of us should put ourselves in situations that we feel uncomfortable. I have a similar situation with a group of girls i used to work with in my twenties who now have all gone on to have children. they have a Christmas get together every year andi always decline as I don't think i can bear to hear them all talk about their lives that have moved on so much more than mine 

Making a start is good progress and all we can do. One step at a time is what i keep telling myself!

Any joy with the Holiday ? Hope your DH managed to find you somewhere lovely to go 

Hugs
Sam xxx


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## karenann

Hello ladies I hope you are all ok - I haven't posted for a while the last few months have been really tough emotionally - Following a laparoscopy in September I hoped for a miracle and that I would get pregnant. Last month was really bad and I just couldn't take anymore - I guess it wasn't to be.   I have been trying not to deal with my emotions and have been eating my way through the house    Over that last few days I have re read this thread and have realised that although I kept saying I was moving on last year - I wasn't. In my heart I hadn't let go of my dream. I was afraid that if I accept it's not going to happen that I won't be able to cope. Sorry if this doesn't make sense    Now my heart is telling me that I have to move on that I am in danger of becoming a miserable twisted old cow !!! I realised that I skipped step one and never wrote the list of things I will never get to do - So before I lose the plot completely here is the list

I will never get that first look at my baby on the ultrasound scan and show everyone the picture
I will never get to talk to my baby bump and feel my baby 
I will never get to cradle my child in my arms look intotheir eyes and watch as they drift off to sleep
I will never get to hold those tiny hands in mine and kiss them
I will never take my child to the library, teach them to read and share all the wonderful children's books with them
I will never get to run around the park with my child kicking leaves in Autumn
I will never get to paddle in the sea with my child and throw pebbles into the waves
I will never get to make that first birthday cake for my child and watch them laugh and blow out the candle
I will never get to lift up my child and laugh and play with them
I will never get to bake biscuits and cakes with them and them eat them whilst watching cartoons
I will never get to share my Dads trainset with my child and tell them stories about my Mum and Dad
I will never watch my child grow and reach all the precious milestones into adulthood
I will never get to be a mum with all the trials and frustrations and joys of parenthood

I will never be a mother and it makes me cry     

I hope that now I can begin to let go and move forward - writing the list was so hard - but I can't live in denial anymore

I am sorry if it all sounds silly - Thanks for reading this - am sending you all hugs   
Thanks to Helen for starting this thread - It really has helped to know that there are others who understand and can offer inspiration and advice and support 
Karenann


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies
I hope you are all okay. 

I had an appointment on Monday with Lets Talk for an assesment to see what kind of help they think i need. To cut a long story short she said that one to one counselling would be best for me. I thought that's good because thats what I felt I wanted. Then in the next breath she said that because funding was short and demand was high it could be August time before i am seen by anybody!!.. I wasn't expecting to be seen next week but i did think it would be sooner than that. I think i am going to speak to my doctor to see if she can reccomend somebody privately. We can't really afford it but i also feel i can't afford to wait that long either. Nothing about this whole situation is ever easy is it!!I would like to do a group meeting but with

Karenann your list doesn't sound silly at all  You are very brave for writing that list and should be proud of yourself for making that step forward. I hope soon that i too can do the same but it scares me  i have to admit.

Hope you all have a lovely week.
Hugs  
Sam xxxxx


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## Sam1971

Sorry that last post wasn't finished!!

I wondered if anyone knew of any group meetings in the midlands area or support groups to contact?I just feel it would be nice to talk face to face to ladies who are in similar circumstances.

 
Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Little Me

Hi Ladies,

It's my first post on this thread, I'm a regular (well, semi regular!) on the Poor responders thread.

Not even sure what I want to say    

I think today has pushed me here as I've been looking at the lovely and very moving lists of I will never ....  that you ladies have written to help come to terms with this sad situation.
So I thought I'd say hello   

It looks like I'm pretty much mind made up on my last and thrid donor ISCI being my last...it's a a toughie though isn't it ladies, to make such a decision....even though I'm not a 100% certain.

I just need to get the old me back again and get my marriage back on track, I seem to have turned into bitter old bag and I was never like that.

I'm trying to look at things in a positive light, I have a wonderful hubby, we have our health, I do have 2 stepsons (but I'm  embarrassed to say that this sometimes makes it harder   ) we've got our puss cats and doggy so life isn't all bad   
I'm trying to get back "out there" and start living again rather than just existing.

I'm sure all this sounds familiar to you all ladies.

I look forward to chatting to you all soon 

LM


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## beachgirl

LM    wish I didn't have to see you on here     it's so hard isn't it coming to terms with everything and constantly questioning yourself and decisions...xxx


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## Little Me

beachy ditto hunny xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

Spoke to my doctor and she gave me the number of a counsellor that wasn't too expensive (£40 per hour as opposed to £120 !!!) .

Had contacted her and left a message for her to call me back with the hope of booking an appointment. She text to say she had one free on the 28th March which i accepted only then to get a messgae from her today saying that she was unable to take on anymore private patients as she had been offered another job  so back to square one again!!

So i decided to phone Let's Talk (this is where the doctor initially reffered me)to check i was on the waiting list and roughly when i could expect to be seen. The lady told me that they were currently seeing patients who had been referred last July/August!!!  so that would mean i could be looking at the end of the year before i even get an appointment 

Why does it always feel like every door is closed in your face  .

Anyway sorry ladies rant over 

Little me- i know exactly where you are coming from with regards to not being 100% certain with the choices we make. Sometimes it feels like you can't win whichever way you decide to go. 

And also with the step children. In some ways it can feel like a blessing that at least we have chance to be some sort of mother figure when they are with us but in other ways it can hurt like hell that they are not yours but are a part of your husband/partner 

I can really relate to trying to get your marriage back on track and appreciating what we do have and i know i do appreciate it, its just buried under so much grief its hard to remember sometimes.

Big     to you all and i hope you all have something nice planned for the weekend.


Samxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## tribble

Hello folks
Little Me it's sad to make the jump from reading this thread to coming back to it to post. If you are going for one last go though - maybe it is right for you to leave us for a while to see how that goes first - to keep boosted up with positivity about the possibility that still exists. If ypu're having a go, there is some hope? I also decided before my third that it would be the last. It did kind of help me not to get into a 'denial' stage of grief too much, and just say oh I'll try again just to make myself feel better straight afterwards - had to confront it head on when I got the negative & deal with it - harder but probably better. You sound very brave & good luck.

KArenann - thanks for your I Will nevers - they do make me cry always - guaranteed. Thank you - you are brave!
I think the denail/accpeting thing goes in ups & downs. I got my period this week, and despite it being blatantly clear from my raging PMT that this was going to happen, I still had a sadness all over again. 

Hi Sam, could you try some other kind of counsellor, not a fertility specialist maybe but just someone who could get you talking? Relate or a women's group or something? I don't know with those I think you pay a fee that you can afford but cos they get a bit of funding anyway it's usually cheaper than £100+?? Hope you're doing OK.


You're right what you said to LM about the stepkids, which we've commented on before. Mine is just lovely. She has been upset with her mum recently & other stuff and been here chatting about it to DH - he is such a lovely dad & I am happy about this but at the same time it is breaking my heart seeing him in action like that  

Habven't been on here for a while - it has been a bloody struggle I have to say. The work stress has gone crazy with public sector pay cuts, most of our jobs are going or radically changing and everyone is really upset. I;ve had the double whammy of feeling like any future identity has gone in terms of parenthood, combined with not seeing any real alternative routes i.e. fulfilling career either.  Before my week off I was pretty much crying all the time, snapping at people, coping very badly. The pregnancies (there are at least 3 now) are all blossoming at work now & it is so hard to see other people doing this, it is almost driving me crazy. 

We had a week off for birthday and instead of ski-ing we went to london to lovely hotel for spoiling ourselves, and then back to the place where we had opur wedding for nice pub food & walking - it was all lovely, just at the end of the week my work stress lifted & the pain of the last failed tx resurfaced badly. But I think it needs to come out in this way - in between we've had some giggles & fun.

I don't know how you all are in terms of getting support from others? I've been hiding away but have now seen a couple more people & shed a few tears - they;ve generally been good to me. My friend has 3 kids & is looking forward to her next break, it was hard to hear this but made it OK just cos she said she knew she could not feel like I was feeling but knew it was a big  deal & loves me anyway - I guess that is what counts the most. Am seeing a small group tomorrow who I'd cancelled just after the tx failed - I am so scared of someone saying the wrong thing & me flying off the handle still, I hope I can handle it. How are you ladies with socialising & stuff Sam i think you were doing alot better than me. 

Anyway - love to all - pamper & look after yourselves. Will need to go back to Helen's next step at some point....
xxx


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## Mamaji

Why oh why is it so hard to commit myself to this thread?  I scroll down and see the words Moving On and burst into tears!!  I scroll back up torture myself with the other threads with success stories in them .......cry again ..... then hit the wall with huge writing on it "I WILL NEVER HAVE MY OWN BABY ACCEPT IT" ..... cry again......... read through some of the posts on this thread ...... cry again....... draft a post ..... cry again ..... dont post it ..... feel a failure .... cry again!!!! Aaaaaaah!!!!

I'm 38 DH 47 (vasectomy 24 yrs ago).  Always had in my head that he would get a reversal and try that way or sperm retrieval and try IUI (worked out we could just about afford that).  Went for tests and DH still producing sperm but my AMH was only 3.6.  Advised that best chance of baby was donor eggs and even then still risk that sperm retrieval would find immature sperm as so long since his op.  The cost of DH op and ICSI with donor eggs is just outwith out reach totally due to DHs commitments with loans etc from previous partner - we were turned down several times for a loan because of his commitments.  We were halted at the first blood test because we dont have a lot of money - not entitled to NHS because of vasectomy and DH has two kids already.  Everything that I had hoped and dreamed about since I was 5 yrs old has crashed, the bottom has fallen out of my world and feel like I have a huge hole in my heart.
I have been going for counselling and trying to accept that we cannot progress at all (financial situation will not change for at least another 3years by which point I will be 41 and my AMH will likely have disappeared to 0 and my Dh will be 50 and will say he is too old to try.  It feels so hopeless! am on prozac and just had my dose doubled today - made me feel even more of a failure.  I think the women on this thread though are strong resilient heart felt people .... can I join you xx


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## Little Me

Evening ladies 
Just wishing you all happy weekends xx

Star hi love - just saw your PR post... I do hope you get some tonic  
Know what you mean about the read- cry-draft- delete- post xxx

Love to all
Off to watch mind numbing tv  

Xxxx


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## tribble

Star baby - you are a star!  well done for being so brave
Know exactly what you mean - I read some of these through when i first found the site & came back here later on.
Wehn I was on here the other day I looked at my cycle buddies page from end of last year & wished I hadn't I feel such in a different place to them now as my active TX has ended it was too painful. Do keep up the counselling I think it is needed.
Glad you have joined us on here (or maybe not glad - but I hope you know what I mean)

Listen everbody - my friend sent me this the other day & I nearly started a new post with it but wanted to share it with you guys - lots of stuff that made me cry but also smile 
big hugs 





It's worth checking out even if you have seen it before 
xxx

/links


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## hopehopehope

just a tentatitive hello - like everyone on this thread i don't actually want to be in this situation, i want to be on the pregnancy thread. 
Can't write anymore today, barely able to get out of bed and go to work. Crying all the time. No support from DH who works away and has a 'break' from me monday-Friday - when he's here he doesn't want to hear about failed fertility and wants me to 'snap out of it'. I am apparently too old to have kids now anyway. Feel as though relationship is disintegrating and will never have a family. Am going to try to write my list to help get it off my chest.


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## beachgirl

Hopehopehope, just read your post and want to give you a big hug, do you have  a support network who you can talk to?


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## hopehopehope

thanks beachgirl - i went to see the counsellor at school today  -  she made me realise that i would rather use donor eggs than have no baby and that i must put myself first and try to get DH on board, if he loves me enough he will let me do this.  Not looking forward to the conversation about this at the weekend ( DH works away in week)


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## Sam1971

Hi ladies

Hope your week is going well. 

Tribble- that must be really hard having to face that at work each day . Glad you managed to have some fun for your birthday . Its just sad that reality rears its head when we are having fun isn't it.
Support is a little hit and miss for me i feel (but maybe that is a little harsh of me to say that). I know my friends are there to talk to if i want to but they never mention it or seem to be in tune to how a certain situation or comment may affect me unless i bring it up but then maybe that is because they think it will upset me if they keep talking about it. I guess they can't win either way 

I do socialise quite a bit but its just the way our life is so i don't really feel like i have a choice but maybe that is a good thing as it stops me from shutting myself away(believe me i want to sometimes and sometimes when we are socialising i go quiet and withdrawn if somthing is said and im sure our friends must notice but i don't worry so much anymore as to what they think because i think we have enough to cope/deal with). However there is still a group of girls that i used to do promotions with when i was in my twenties who get together a few times a year and i always decline . they have gone on to marry and have families and i don't feel strong enough to cope with that situation  So i guess what i'm doing is choosing which friends and what situations i think i can deal with and go from there. Did you meet with your small group of friends?Hope it went well 

Hopehopehope - good luck with your chat and whatever you decide. Big  

Love and   to you all
Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

Not feeling so good today . One of the girls i used to work with doing promotions (i spoke about her in my previous post re not being strong enough to meet up with her and the others) has just had her 3rd baby 

I only know this because one of my close friends has commented on her face book congratulating her and i feel so jealous and hurt . I know its wrong to feel this way and i should be happy for her , after all its not her fault i can't have a baby but i just feel soooo jealous  . Jealous of her having another baby and jealous because my close friend who is obviously happy for her and is making a fuss of her  (i know thats a normal reaction but she will never do the same with me )

I hate the way this always makes me feel and at the minute i just don't feel i will ever react in a normal manner to anything .

So sick of this always hanging over me. wish it would just all go away  Dh and i have always been really close but i feel we are drifting at the minute too and that scares me but i'm the way i am and i don't know if i will ever be any different and if i don't change i think it will ruin us 

Sorry- just having a bad day i think. Sick of hurting

Big    to you all and i hope you are all okay

Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Mamaji

Sam:    It hurts like hell when someone else's baby news arrives, i can understand how you feel and I think its totally normal to feel like that.  When others have a baby its like further confirmation or more like rubbing our face in the fact we cant have one of our own.  We wont have  the joy or the congratulations, or the comments about how big our belly has got, or asking when we are due to give birth, or questions about  whether the wee one is sleeping through the night yet, or discussions about when the wee one has started on solid food.  All of these things I have commented on to my sister throughout her pregnancy and after the birth of her baby.

Its a hard one to swallow when there is the confused feelings of happiness for the other person which quickly turns into jealousy, anger, longing, emptiness.  I think we have to go through these feelings though in order to get to the other side - whatever it holds!  Have you been for counselling?  I have been going and it really has helped me to sort through all the jumbled feelings - especially about my DH as I had a phase of silently hating him inside me and distancing myself.

Be gentle with yourself today honey sending you loads of love and hugs  

Nic xx


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## Sam1971

Hi Nic

Thankyou for your kind words  

I'm just so fed up of feeling this way. I have a day where i feel a little better more upbeat but it just doesn't last. It just all comes crashing back down around you again 

I know i don't need to tell you or any of the other ladies on here as you all feel it too but its just so unfair 

I am trying to sort out counselling at the moment and i had made an appointment but she cancelled it and is no longer taking on new clients so i need to find someone else. I just worry about the cost as we really dont have the spare cash(still paying off for all the failed treatments)but i know if i don't the way im feeling will only get worse.

Thank you again and love and   back to you as i know you are suffereing too.Hope you are doing something nice this weekend 

Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Mamaji

Hiya Sam

Dunno if will help any but my latest trick learned from counselling is to start a book of positive moments.  Counsellor said that it is all too easy to get wrapped up and engulfed by all the pain and negative feelings and lose sight of the moments in the day where we might actually feel okay.  You can write anything down at all and buy a nice book specially for it; things I have got logged from this wk are: woke up and noticed that DH had not put his clothes away and nagged him to do so (first time I have nagged him in 4 months - he cried with happiness); cleaned the bathroom because I felt like doing it not because I had to force myself to do it;  listened to some music and danced in the kitchen making dinner, my sister sent me a text message with her daughter dressed up for comic relief followed by a video of Ellie singing I love you Aunty Nic; the sun is shining.

Right now my kitten has just arrived in the room having been jumping around in the bath.  His fluffy tail is covered in shampoo, he has cotton wool stuck to his nose and has a fizzy bath bomb in his mouth and mischief in his eyes!  Another entry for the book!!

It seems to be helping me as I read through the happy moments every day and even if no happy moments happen that day, I can remember that there have been some before and more will come my way little by little.


Loadsa love from me and my crazy kitty xx

Nic


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## Little Me

Hi lovlies xx

Sam hugs Hun  

And Nic, I'm impressed love well done   I've been doing some happy moments too and it's a nice feeling  

Xxxxxx


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## Mamaji

Hiya!!

Something that made me smile today .... looked outside and my minature daffodils have pushed there way up and their tiny yellow heads look like they will be open in a few days.  I have just come inside from looking at them and thought about the hard journey that flowers like daffodils, tulips, snowdrops etc all have each spring.  We had about 22 inches of snow in December and solid ice everywhere (Edinburgh).  I was looking at the flowers thinking how strong their roots must be to survive the snow/ice and force their way through hard ground over the winter until they eventually push their way through the earth and new flowers are born.  I started comparing it to the journey of infertility in my head.  The flowers go through a yearly cycle of struggling to survive and for us we have several cycles on this journey.  The monthly one of hormones fluctuating, trying to conceive, the devastation every time AF arrives, the grief at the thought of another egg going.  The going through treatment cycle (havent done it but can imagine the rollercoaster of emotions from reading posts).  The final cycle ... which (alongside AF cycle) I am experiencing ..... a space of beginning the process of acceptance that I will never have my own baby ... no treatment ... no natural conception ... no baby.  I have been really down lately but looking at the flowers I started thinking that at the moment I am the equivalent of the daffodil bulbs which a few months ago were under the ground, now they have pushed up and out of the ground and reaching their beautiful yellow heads towards the sun!!  I started crying thinking that could be me in a few months .... when my anti-depressants properly kick in and the counselling keeps me from going nuts ... I might feel like raising my head up and looking towards the sky to feel the sun on my face ... then the feeling of warmth and comfort that comes from the sun.  Sorry if this sounds a bit weird   I am a bit of a hippy and try to see something spiritual and good in anything around me.  I am going to write this in my positive thoughts book .. because if today goes like most days in an hour or so I will forget that i felt this feeling of contentment as the emptiness returns.  But for now ....   to the power of nature and I just wish nature was kinder to all of us who long for a baby  

Nic x


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## Mamaji

Just come out of what was supposed to be a relaxing bubble bath.  I was just starting to wind down when I looked into the water which had just turned a lovely shade of red - yup AF arrived with a vengence.  Have just spent the last ten minutes sobbing in the bath watching clots of blood floating around.  I kinda got stuck in the bath, I knew I should get out but it was like I was rooted to the spot, my heart wrenching, I couldnt move!  It hurts to breathe when this pain comes, its like the weight of a huge person is on my chest.  I had been having a good day as well .... then wham reminded yet again ....... no baby ever coming my way and this constant monthly reminder of it ggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Sam1971

Oh Nic 

I am so sorry for you huni  

Its such a shame following your post on Saturday. It was so uplifting and such a good idea(i have only just read it though). Big    to you sweetie and i hope you have woken today and the pain has lifted a little for you.

Take care of you and go play with that gorgeous little kitten of yours  

Little me- hugs to you too. I am going to try the happy moments book too as it was a really nice idea by Nic.

Sam
xxxxxxxxxxx


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## Mamaji

Sam:   thanks hon!

How weird is it that last nite in the bath my world felt like it had ended, had a sleepless night with a cramping stomach ... then this morning I wake up to sunshine, no cramps, and the vision of my kitten with a necklace wrapped round his neck as he tried to unravel himself - he made me smile!!

Got up and looked outside and my lovely wee daffodils have started opening - well sap that I am I just burst into tears! How good did it feel to be crying about something nice rather than grief!!  My neighbours must have thought I had lost the plot - I bent down to the daffodils to smell them and without realising it started talking out loud to myself about how amazing they were and that I was going to try to find the same strength within me - I started dancing round the garden singing "I want to break free" by Queen - honestly no alcohol involved    I do believe the wonder of Prozac may actually be starting to work yaaaaay!!  My neighbour walked past the garden and stopped, stared then giggled - I didnt even feel embarrassed I burst out laughing    Definitely another entry for positive thoughts book  

So I'm sending some laughter   and sunshine   and love   to all of you


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## Little Me

Sam & Nic    and   

Loving the dafs, they are making me feel all    and


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## tribble

HI ladies
Hope hope hope -    your DH must be wondering how on earth he can handle it & help yuo handle it - would others agree men can be at their worse when they feel helpless and not knowing how to help sort things? Even if he cannot sort this one for you, maybe there are some small things he could do for/with you that would help you and maybe make him feel a bit useful. Just an idea. Hope you feeling bit better by now & been brave with your conversation. 

Sam you put it just right for me about friends & how it can be. Am so glad I had my meet-up & my one oldest chum peridoically 'checking' up on me if I was handling it OK over the weekend. Did make me think they are old friends who are there whatever. Everyone's dealing with their own stuff too including divorcing, having Dh probs etc. Must admit to feeling angry still with one who had her IVF & successful first time - having poured my heart out to her a couple of years ago when I hadn't really told many people, I feel so disappinted that she has not really ever asked me about it since.... DH says I am unfair as I told people I didn't want to talk about it all the time... but you're right people can't win but I still feel quite angry. I luckily have other friends who are cool and make up for it; I would like to get to a 'forgive and forget' place but a bit too hard still at the moment. 

Sam I hope you can stick together with your DH, it was your love for each other that got you this far trying to ahve a family. I just think what a blood irony if my relationship fails too I am determined it won't. No-one can underestimate the stress it puts us all under with the partners, no easy answer but I guess trying to feel happier for yourself will be a good start. 

Ladies I am loving your positive moments. Think that is really important. Am also loving the daffodils and baby lambs! We need to focus on these when everything else feels like setbacks. At the moment work is so dire I really need the weekends to be full of nice stuff so trying to keep control of these & keep some me time in there! Last week a senior mgr said to me in a meeting 'oh it's alright for you without any kids" just because I said I'd gone to get a leg wax - I was so angry & upset I had to hold in tears through that meeting; think I will need to avoid her so I can calm down. I really really don't know how people can be so flippant & insensitive. I know I could make her feel bad by telling her about my last few months (years!) but I think why should she know my private life silly cow. 

I did go to my doc last week getting fed up with not sleeping and feeling so bad; he gave me a few options but have resisted the anti-depressant route so far, if it carries on I will go back and discuss it again.

Thinking back to Helen's original thread, the second bit was about the reasons you wanted to have kids; for me it was mainly about celebrating the love with my DH, I had a desire to eventually have kids before him but getting married to him made it all really turn into a big big wish & dream suddenly I really wanted to. 
I also wanted to have them because I think families are good and can be fun & I wanted to continue my family on into the future (I know they can do our heads in too!). I guess I thought I could contribute to the world in a way too by bringing up someone who could contribute in a good way. Shall I be really honest and say I also thought having children would mean that I would not be a little wizened old lady set in my ways that they would keep me fresh and young and outward looking, and they would remember me when I am old & wizened.

Now I will need to look back on the thread & see what the book said about people's reasons....

For those of you still finding the courage to do their list of what is lost 'I will never...' I think ti si worth doing, but you make sure you nurture yourselves totally afterwards & pamper in every way you know how    

sending love to all, hang in there you are all great women that Mother earth is proud of!
xxx


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## JenMH

Hello Ladies,  I've come to join you from a different thread, having made the awful decision that its time to stop trying for a family.  Just had a negative after a 2ww and have to go back to work tomorrow knowing I will never be a mum.  Ouch.   

I keep a Happy Book, which I think will be the same as the positive thoughts books mentioned on here.  It is good to look through and laugh at.  I agree its lovely to see the daffs coming up.  think I might make the most of my last day off and go outside, before reality hits home.

Jen x


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## Sam1971

Hi Nic

I'm so glad that you are feeling a little better today 

Would have loved to be a fly on the wall waching you and your neighbour . Definitely one for your book for future reads.

Little me - thankyou and   to you too.

Tribble-I agree with you completely over your friend whos 1st attempt was successful. It wouldn't hurt to to check you are okay(she doesn't have to go on about it all the time) but it is nice to know you have some friends you can count on too. I too have avoided the anti depressent route so far as i am hoping i can get through it without and i hope you can too . The being a wizened old lady and having someone to care and look out for me is definitely something that prays on my mind alot but i do try to reason with myself that i need to think about the here and now and not 20 years down the line(so much easier said than done )

I hope you all have something nice planned for the week ahead.

Love and   
Sam xxxxxxxxx


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## hopehopehope

tribble - thank you for you thoughts   . Am now very angry with Dh Mum as when DH and i talking at weekend about DE, he piped up that his mum had said he had spent enought money trying to make my dream come true. This is totally swaying his decision over DE. I said that if that's the case and she is not bothered about having her own genetic grandchildren when i am prepared to give up my own eggs then we might as well go for donor embryo! It has been two days and i am still fuming, i think dH prob wishes he didn't open his mouth - though i haven't mentioned it since. 

jen - hi - wots you story?

Starbaby - i have been and am at the same low point you have been experiencing - i know money is an issue but coud you go for donor embryo abroad?

Please excuse me if i am saying the wrong thing. I dont know whether i should be on this thread as i may still have donor treatment. I am lucky in that i work full time and have always been careful, so i can now afford to self fund as long as i never buy clothes or have holidays etc.  I feel as though i need to see through the trees to the sunshine that there can be on the other side and hope this thread can help me with that. Thank you


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## Mamaji

JenMH: Hiya and huge    its nice to have you here; though I know how hard it is to make the transition to this thread.  For me it was confirming the finality of the decision and thats really difficult and painful.  I've only been posting here for a few wks and everyone is lovely  

The thought of going back to work is hard eh.  I'm going back next wk too after being off for 8 wks with depression - only my boss knows the real reason - is there anyone at work knows why you were off?  I feel like I have a huge sign on my heart "I will never have a baby" which when feeling wobbly feels like the whole world can see - then I realise it is invisible - the pain, the shame, the despair, the loss, the longing, the dreams - invisible to those looking at you.  Yet we will both go back to work and put the brave face on and function.

My boss was on the phone today and was getting excited about me going back - I felt dread.  She told me about the latest goings on (I'm a manager of care home for the elderly (35 people with dementia so a huge need to have a brave happy face on permanently) - I felt nothing.  All I could think was that I have been one of those women whose career was just filling in the time until I had my family.  I have done well in my job over the years but it has never really meant as much to me as seeking my family. Now .. no family of my own (although still have my 22 and 25 yr old step children from DHs first marriage) - note to self stay positive!!!!

I hope things go ok for you and will be sending you  .

Tribble - your list made me blub, thanks for sharing it - I've not been brave enough to start it yet - tried a few times and I end up soaking the paper with my tears   so have to start again  . - Oops just realised got my smilies the wrong way round - AF strikes again.  So far today I have walked into a door twice, chopped my finger whilst making soup and said to the window cleaner "do you want windows for the money" - otherwise translated in non AF days as "would you like money for doing the windows".  I think he thought  I was loopy - I just giggled at him, smiled and said hormones eh!  I can understand your hesitancy to go down the route of medication - I resisted for months - until realised that i was waking up crying, it was taking an hour each day to convince myself to go to work, I drove in crying the whole way, put a brave face on a work - in between trips to the toilet - yup you guessed it to c ry - drove home crying - went to bed and lay awake all night - woke up and started the whole cycle again.  It took so much for me to go to the doc and ask to be signed off and for tabs I felt so ashamed that I couldnt cope.  What I have realised however is that it took a helluva lot of strength to do it and I was actually acknowledging how much pain i was in which is a good thing.  Since taking the meds - I am still crying and feeling low (with bright interludes of daffodils) but when i cry I dont feel like it is going to overwhelm me - that's what it felt like previously.  I think the combo of meds and good counselling works - well so far  

Sam:  

I've got to go to occupational health tommorow for work before I return -am dreading it.  I can hear the quuestions now - "so tell me what has caused this period of depression".  I need to practice an answer which wont make me cry, or maybe not .... maybe i need to just give myself permission to be real - answer whatever questions and if I am calm then great - if I blub then i blub    just makes me feel really weak in front of people I dont know - pride n all that!!!  Send me positive vibes for tommorow at 2.30pm.

Off to eat some lovely home made soup (with additional drips of blood ). 

Love to you all   Nic


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## Mamaji

Aaaaah am beginning to wonder what me and DH did wrong in a past life or something, cos we are really nice kind people in this one - but life is not being kind!!!!  I had myself geared up for going to occupational health meeting today and convincing the person  that i was fit to return to work.  Mmmmm went slightly different and now cant stop crying!! My DH got suspended from work yesterday (he hasnt done anything wrong and they are blaming him because he is the Senior Manager!!!!)  Just before I was about to leave for my appointment he received a letter confirming his suspension and saying it is for gross misconduct which could lead to instant dismissal.  I had a huge panic attack - he works in care and if sacked for gross misconduct then career over! I turned up for my appointment feeling even more pressure to get back to work in case DH loses his job.  The doc kept me waiting for 15 mins by which time my anxiety was through the roof and as soon as I got into his office I burst into tears and started shaking with anxiety.

He turned out to be a lovely man who used to work in an infertility clinic (spooky or what!!) so hardly needed to say anything about how I have been feeling - he actually understood.  It made it worse him being so understanding, every time he said something nice it made me cry again!!  Anyway he deduced that I am not fit for work for a further 4 wks which means I will be going down to 75% of my salary which we cannot afford.  Feel like such a failure !  I am trying to be there for DH but in reality I am more wobbly than him so we are just trying to hold onto each other.  Wish I could press a button and make everything better - sorry .... not remotely positive today


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## Sam1971

Oh Nic How are you today honey   

Why is it that it seems all the bad things come at once . I bet you feel totally overwhelmed at the minute don't you.

Don't put yourself under so much pressure. I know its easier said than done but the doctor must feel you are not ready for work yet so try to take things easy and pamper yourself and you will get there  I am praying for you that justice prevails and things with your Dh's job get sorted and the correct person is held accountable for whatever has happened.

You are so not a failure either . you the same as the rest of us never asked for any of this to happen so You are trying to deal with something that is just too horrible to even put into words properly so if anything else goes wrong it feels like it everything is against us.

If only we could press a button eh. How much simpler would life be 

Take care of you and your Dh

Big   

Sam
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## tribble

Hi JenMH welcome it is a big step but I hope you fiind it helpful to you. This is the only part of the website I can bear to come on now. I really find it difficult hearing about other people's continuing hope, this will get better in time & of course I wish everyone well but it's just too painful for me now to go back to my cycle buddies pages... hope you are Ok

Poor starbaby! I do really feel for you; had a similar thing 2 weeks after 2nd failed tx, had a complaint at work and investigation over something one of the staff forgot to do (same type of work as you & your DH) - they did it all quite formally and I only got thru it cos immediate boss gave tons of support and didn't agree with the approach taken. It became all about surviving. You will get back to work, to go back now would be way too stressy as you'd be worrying about DH too... you will get thrus this but agree; what on earth is life/god/whoever doing to throw all this rubbish your way in one go!? You must take it so so easy on yourselves these next few weeks, whatever it takes but stick together.
And thanks I totally take on board what you are saying about being brave enough to accept the help/treatment/tablets whatever you need.

Hopehopehope; about time your DH thought for himself and not be so easily swayed by his mum!!??  

Sam hope you are feeling a bit better.
It comes in waves. Earlier in the week I was telling dh how I was having a better day & was for the first time able to ask my colleague about her pregnancy & scan and be naturally interested. The next day found me at McFly concert (random Xmas pressy from DH) all jolly until I looked around me at so many parents bopping along with their kids to the music, so jealous of people that can hang out having fun with their kids like that & thinking about all those fun things I'd be missing seeing my child enjoy themselves. Fought back tears rest of the night   I guess the PMT is kicking in again by now so always feel much worse then;  Starbaby I know exactly what you mean about hormones I'm a nightmare. My doc did not really come up with anything to help with that; I know I won't be having kids but I really don't want the pill & it might make it worse anyway.

Anyway lovely ladies. Having done my reasons for wanting kids I will at some point turn the page back to the book ideas to see what the 3rd step is.... not quite ready yet...
lots of love xxx


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## chinup07

Hello ladies. 

Hope you don't mind me joining you.

DH and I got our final BFN yesterday and while it's still all extremely raw and I feel numb, I wanted to take the first tiny step towards accepting this really is the end of the road for us having our own children. While I'm feeling numb, I also feel on the edge of bursting into tears constantly, but have only done so once very briefly since getting the result (just this morning). I seem to find crying doesn't come so easily any more - it's like all the strength it's taken to get through the last 8 years has taken its toll and there was no room for breaking down as it was all about keeping going and keeping positive so you kind of forget how to let it all out. I did have a particulary low time last year several months after an early m/c (our only pregnancy) and know from that experience that if I don't grieve our loss properly and accept things I'll end up back in that same place, but where to start? I thought here, in the company of you amazing ladies, was probably the best place.

I couldn't face going into work this morning -my boss and the team leaders I line manage all know I've been going through treatment so I didn't have to say too much when calling in. DH has taken himself to work, but that's his way of coping - he doesn't have a very stressful role and can just focus on one job at a time and welcomes the distraction. My job is pretty stressful, high energy and involves keeping a lot of plates spinning - am also managing staff through restructuring at the moment which is a huge drain on me emotionally as I regularly have staff pop in to lean on me when things are getting tough. I just couldn't face it. Will see how I feel tomorrow, but I feel it's one day at a time right now.

Anyway, that's all been about me (apologies), but I look forward to getting to know some of you better over the coming months and sharing some experiences and learning from one another.

  to everyone here.

Best wishes
Em.x


ps. Did have a look at page 1 at the list of 'I will never....'s. Truly moving. Will definitely embrace this one completely when I feel ready. I already told myself 'I will never be a mum' this morning ahead of reading this forum - that's what got the first tears coming which makes me think this is a very important thing to tackle to begin truly accepting and moving on.


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

Em- I'm fairly new to posting on here too but i'm sure i can speak for everyone and say of course we don't mind you joining us  (wish not a single one of us didn't have to but i guess that goes wirthout saying).
I can understand you not wanting to go into work and have to face everyone as i found that too much too. I think you need to go back when you feel ready and hopefully you have an understanding boss who won't put too much pressure on you to go back too soon.
Big    to you and i hope you find it helps to let it all out on here(i know i do)

JenMH- Big    to you too. Hope you re hanging in there.

Tribble - How are you? Its awful isn't it when you think you are feeling and coping a little better only to do something that is supposed to be fun and find out that it then causes you more pain . I guess we just can't let it stop us doing things and we have to hope that one day it will be alot easier and the fun things will be fun things for us.

I finally rang Care to see if i would be entitled to have my counselling sessions that i didn't take after my last failed ICSI (nearly 2 years ago now) and i was quite shocked that have said said yes . I'm gonna see how they go and then take it from there. Only thing i'm not looking forward to is having to go back in there without the hope you carry when in the middle of a cycle of treatment  but it has to be done so i have to be strong.

My Gran really upset me yesterday and i know she wouldn't want to but she can be so insensitive sometimes. I am really close to her and help her quite a bit but its like it doesn't even register what i have been through or the pain i still feel . My cousins girlfriend is pregnant and she asked me if i would get some baby towels for them when i was out and about!!!  Just couldn't get my head around it and didn't really know what to say  . so at first i said could my other cousin (his sister) pick them up as she already has a daughter and her answer was she didn't want to ask her as she gets jealous!!! I thought what has she to be jealous about!!..She has a beautiful daughter . So i took the bull by the horns and thought why should i always be the one to hide how i'm feeling so as not to upset anyone. I wasn't funny with her (i love her) but i just said do you not think that it would be more upsetting for me to have to shop for them?.. She just said 'oh yes sorry didn't think about that don't worry about it i'll ask someone else' and that was that!!
I don't know about the rest of you ladies but i just feel sometimes that people including your close family just expect you to be over it all a few years/months down the line and that is just so not the case is it  

Sorry rant over . hope you are all enjoying the sunshine 

Love and  
Sam xxx


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## tribble

Welcome Em/Chinup. Glad you took time out of work, if you are supporting others, you need some of your own resources to do that otherwise there'll be nothing left for you & DH! 
I too came on here the day I got my final bfn, I read the whole thread from start to end, it helped me alot. To me, you sound wise and thoughtful towards yourself, maybe you don't feel like that. But a first big step for us all is realising what's ahead & the magnitude of what we need to come to terms with - even if it's going to take a while to do it. 

Sam know what you mean about the granny comment! Probably many of us are used to smiling away & a brave face; it does people good to actually hear how it really is, so good for you. I find this very hard & tend to stew on it in my head & just be angry towards these people... probably not fair on them as not giving a chance for their support!

A couple of nights ago I had such a vivid dream about being pregnant; I was talking to a doctor and then going to see my DH and family & excited about telling them, in the dream I could almost physically feel the bump & where my stomach had changed, I had to check when I was more awake, although I knew it wasn't really true and as I was waking I was trying to stay in the dream longer as it gave me nicer feelings  
I've always remembered alot about my dreams and had alot of them, have had dreams about having children or looking after a baby before; but hadn't for a while so it did hit me. I guess this is my psyche/soul trying to sort through things.

DH booked us to see the counsellor lady again on the weekend - not really sure what I want to say to her but I have my mindset of it being included in the cost of the tx (just this one more session) so if I;ve paid for it I'll have it!!! I think I am going to ask her how long is it goijng to take to get me over this - I already know there is not an answer to that though....

Sam I hope yours goes well, great that they still offer that to you. 

In the meantime I have sprained my ankle, so hobbling & in pain & can't drive for a while. Planned to do some big walks in Lakes in a couple of weeks (the kind of big hikes I would not have been doing had I been pregnant if tx worked) which I love. Can't believe DH & I have managed to stuff up yet another holiday which was meant to help us following failed last tx (after he broke his thumb before we were meant to go skiing)  
I will try & count my blessings anyway. 

I hope you ladies are OK this weekend - mother's day - I am usually OK & focus on seeing my mum & making a bit of a fuss of her; hopefully we can do something where there won't be lots of mums of my age being fussed over by their little kids. I hope you are all going to look after yourselves
lots of love 
xxx


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## Mamaji

Hello lovely ladies

I have a head which feels like marshmallows and need to type fast to take all the revolving thoughts in my head out!!!!  I will read back through posts tommorow to see how you all are sending   to everyone.

Here goes ...  I had my last session of counselling today which was really hard.  I had formed a really good relationship with her and felt like I could unleash my feelings easily whilst feeling safe and held.  I was talking about the other day when I went to visit my sister and held her 7 mth old daughter.  On a day to day basis I am aware of the feeling of a huge hole in the centre of my chest (I know its grief but it feels like a gaping space where my happy heart used to be).  Lillie was on my knee and she cuddled into my chest and was suckling on my necklace making gurgling noises to herself.  I had the feeling of her slowly sinking into the space where I feel the hole.  I held her closer to me and could feel waves of warmth and love flowing through me, it was as if she was fitting exactly into the space, filling it up.  I started kissing the top of her head gently and she started suckling at the skin on my neck.  I had an even stronger feeling of her sinking into my heart .... then the love she was oozing hit the pain in my heart and huge hot tears were falling down my cheeks.  I wasn't crying out loud, no sound, just huge hot tears which quietly made their way down my face.  Lillie looked up at me and put her tiny hand on my cheeks and giggled loudly .... more tears falling which Lillie was touching with her fingers.  I felt like my heart was going to explode so put Lillie down to crawl around.  As soon as I put her down, I could feel the gaping hole, felt like I was drowning in the pain in my chest.

I was crying a lot during counselling trying to find a solution to fill the hole up - I know that eventually when I'm ready we can look at fostering/adoption but for now .... I wish I could make it all better!!!  Now I'm feeling numb .. when I  am breathing I can feel the heaviness in my chest but can't get the tears to come out -they are stuck.  Have just re-read a poem that the counsellor gave me which was written by one of her other patients who wanted to pass it on to other women - I've started a new thread which I will put the poem on, thought that we could add to it with our own poems, words .. the words really touched me .  Think I will go have a bath to try to get these stuck tears out! Sorry for me me me post ... feel better after typing this ...

Nic x


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## Sam1971

Hi Ladies

I hope you are all okay and i bet like me you are glad that weekend is over and done with 

Tribble--Nooo i can't believe you have sprained your ankle now and you can't have the revised holiday you wanted . Sometimews things just never seem to go according to pl;an do they . Are you still having your dreams? That must be really painful to deal with when you wake up. How did the counselling go? Hope it helped a little even though no one can give us answers.


Nic-Oh Nic. Big big    to you. Its so hard isn't it to hold someones baby and not give in to all  the overwhelming senses,some good  , some bad  that take a hold of you. I hope you are okay and that you did something nice over the weekend.

I went to my Grans on Saturday to take her flowers and do her hair for her and i couldn't believe my timing because as i arrived so did my cousin with his heaviliy pregnant girlfriend (the one i had been asked to buy towels for by my gran)  . I felt so uncomfortable that i stayed in the kitchen for quite a while pretending i was making drinks and washing the pots(i felt really bad when they left as i dont see them very often and it was so rude of me). i could here my Gran going through and passing over all the stuff she had bought them . Its awful but i couldn't even bring myself to ask them how the pregnancy was going and show any interest at all. How bad and selfish am i .
Will situations like that ever get any better i wonder 

Anyway must go now. Love to you all


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## Mamaji

Tribble: Hope your ankle is receiving lots of TLC and feeling better.  How did the counselling go?  Before a session I would always gear myself up thinking if I just do this then she will give me a solution to the pain .... then it will all go away... and we can live happily ever after ..... if only it were that easy eh!!

Sam: I think you did the right thing when you were at your gran's ..... self preservation .... not remotely selfish honey.  It's so hard when everyone else just goes about their lives, including preparing for babies coming in front of us ...... it will maybe be in the back of their mind that it might be hard for us ....... but I dont think anyone has any concept of the fact that it is right in front of our eyes every minute of the day ... and how much it bl**dy hurts.  How did your counselling go?

I've got a manic DH at the moment, he is so stressed about the work situation and has got a date for his interview 27 April.  He is coping by being busy all the time and tidying, painting, wallpapering anything he can get his hands on to distract himself!  The difficulty with that is that when I am low then I get a real need for everything around me to stay the same as there is so much turmoil inside.  He is changing and moving everything and is saying that he is doing it to cheer us both up.  I can't tell him not to do it as he needs to be allowed to use his way of getting through this.  I have been rattling around with every change that he makes.  Poor thing he walked into the room and I was on the bed shaking like someone had just given me an electric shock he was all happy that he had just finished the kitchen so I pretended that my shanking was because I was cold  .  It's really hard trying to get the balance between me allowing myself to be real and supporting my vulnerable darlin at the same time.  Ah we will get there!!

Let's be positive the sun is shining for the second day in a row, the sky is clear and a gorgeous deep blue, the flowers are stretching up to the sun and my two cats are sunbathing on the grass.  I wish i was a cat   they have got the best life ... 

love to everyone xx nic


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## Sam1971

Hi Nic

How are you feeling today?..I guess if we keep things the same its like we have some control over something where with the baby making we just don't . I hope your DH is doing okay too as it must be a really worrying time for you both. Good luck for the 27th when i'm sure things will get sorted and he can get back to work and leave everything in its place 

My counselling is on Wednesday and i'm dreading it to be honest . i think more so because its going back to a place where i went when i still had hope they would help me become pregnant . Still its got to be done.

I know what you mean Nic about wishing you were one of your cats . I said the same thing to DH the other day that i want to come back as a dog looked after by people like us!!!.. Not sure its a dog life as she is soooooo spoilt 

Love to you all and have a good week

Sam


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## Mamaji

Hiya Sam

Sending you loads of    for counselling tommorow.  It's really hard returning to the hopeful place but I found that in a strange way it stopped me running away from my feelings.... I had no choice but to let it all out!  I think the walk along the corridor contributed to that - had to walk through maternity, the midwife station, and pass all the waiting rooms with women with ever growing bellies!  Am glad you're going honey - it hurts like hell but does help   Thinking of you xxx Nic


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## tribble

Hi there
thanks for the messages
ankle very slow to heal - went back for another x ray def. not broken but really bad tear/sprain   decided we are going to the lakes anyway for our hols, we need some regular time out at the minute.

Loads of luck starbaby DH - these things tend to resolve just a hideous process so everything crossed for him - stick together with your strangely different ways of coping won't you?

Sam good luck with your counselling - it is so hard to go back to the clinic - I wish it was a side separate entrance or soemthing. I can only just about do it cos DH is with me. I agree self=preservation is the way to go if this means turning down baby showers & christenings, or talking about topics other than pregnancy then so be it - look after yourself. If they know your situation even better, they will just be glad to say hello.

My counselling was good - I was feeling slightly better so thought maybe I don't need to right now - how wrong all the tears are still in there. 
She did answer my question how long does this take to get over it/through it - she said (on average) TWO YEARS. I was bloody shocked I can tell you & just full of dread this seems like a scarily long time to me - but I know it's true    We talked alot about my anger & feeling let down by other people's lack of understanding of how I am feeling. She advised me writing a long letter getting all this out onto paper - not necessarily to send out to anyone. Which I will do. 


Am gradually getting a bit better at asking for help - DH rang my sister when I asked him to & she came straight over to see me and I wept on the sofa for a long time, it did really help me although sheis a really different person to me she has had 2 failed ivfs so knows the score (now has adopted). My mum struggles with the whole emotional literacy thing but did write me a letter saying she was proud of me & loved me and she will do her best to listen anytime. These things really help. It's amazing how some other people get it so badly wrong... it just depends on their personality & level of comfort with other people's distress I;ve decided, not a measure of how much they think of me!

anyway love to you all, keep talking I think it is the way to get through this. 3 months down, 21 to go according to counselling.....   
xx


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## Sam1971

Hi Nic

Thank you for your reassuring message . I have been feeling kind of okay over the last few days but i'm sure it will all come out today. I think most of the time for most of us it just bubbles away under the surface just waiting for an opportunity to surface and i think for me that will be today 
Hope you are okay too huni 

Hi Tribble-glad your ankle is not broken although i'm sure your still in quite a bit of pain . Good for you going away still-it does us good to get away from normality i  think and all that goes with every day life. Helps us forget i think if but  for a short while.

I'm glad your counselling was good for you even if the answer was longer than you expected-although i suppose everyone is different.Its been nearly 2 years for me now and if im honest i wouldn't say im as emotional as i was but its still hard to deal with most everyday things that i see and people say . sorry hope that doesn't make you feel worse   . One day at a time for all of us i guess. I think we will always have the pain but for me i need to learn how to deal with different situations and people without overreacting to them 

I think you are spot on with how peoples personalities can affect the way they react and are with us. Big    to you.

love to you all and hope the sunshine is making you feel a lighter

Sam xxx


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## Mamaji

Tribble: Glad you are still going on your hols, I agree with Sam it's nice to get away from from everyday life.  Hope your ankle gets better soon, I did the same last year - arnica cream was amazing for reducing the bruising.  GP sent me for physio which helped to get the strength back quicker.

Your counselling sounds positive, although have to admit I read your post and shouted out loud "two feckin years ..... what the fcuk!!!" Then when I checked in with my feelings, felt a bit like you and thought yup that's probably spot on.  I guess that's the average time that they say it takes to get over grieving for a death ... and for us it's the same ... I was trying to explain it to my sister last week - she said "why is it that every time I see you that you seem to be getting worse not better, you seem like a wreck and I'm worried about you".  Now granted being called a "wreck" is not the best.....  I tried to explain that every time I saw her her 3 yr old and 6 mth old daughters were with her and it obviously stirs everything up - especially Lillie (baby) - so she probably doesnt get a true picture of how I can be day to day.  I said that when someone dies you almost have the finality - you know for sure you will never see that person again ..... it hurts but the amount of reminders (in my opinion) are lower than the amount of daily reminders re infertility.  She found it particularly difficult when my gran died and I asked her how she would feel if she went shopping to the supermarket and there were people everywhere that looked like my gran, that she would have the longing to hold her ...  but the realisation that she couldnt.  I said that children, parents, family occasions, tv are all prompters of sad feelings which I have no way of controlling - bar staying hidden in the house which i refuse to do!  She started crying and I think for the first time got a glimpse of what it feels like.

DH and I are managing to cope with each other - have reached compromise - he can continue decorating if he slows down a bit and doesnt create chaos in every room .. all at the same time    The positive side is that the house is looking really nice .. so all good!  

Sam: Hope things went ok today xx

I spent last night and today with my step daughter and her two kids (5 and 3).  I keep thinking that I can handle it and that I can play with the kids and feel love for them and I do ... then it flips over into sadness and it is like I flatline and become numb.  Had the sense today of talking automatically without having any connection to what i was saying.  Sounds bit mad maybe but I felt like I was running as far away inside myself as i could trying to get away from the sadness.  Am going to find another counsellor now that my hospital sessions are finished - I agree Tribble, talking is probably the only way to really get through to the feelings.

Sending loadsa love to everyone xx Nic


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## tribble

Hello all
Poor nic! although I think people seeing that, yes, you can feel like a wreck is a good thing really - someone to witness that feeling and be thinking of you . Always a good sign if you can make a friend or relative cry! Seriously it shows real feeling for you coming from them. Glad you talked to her. Also because so much gets caught up in surface talk about day to day stuff.

Sam hope you are OK, one day at a time you are right.

Had a lovely break away, couldn't do as much walking as I wanted, which I was generally OK with as it was SO sunny, felt very lucky there having almost pure sunshine in the Lakes, in April! which made a nice change for the last few months when I've been feeling like Mrs Unlucky with failing at IVF & all our injuries! Only one day when lots of people were strutting past up to a lovely mountain view & I couldn't do it due to bad ankle; I  sulked & thought well if I can't have kids or be pregnant I'm meant to be this all-action outdoor heroine go-getting hiker & I'm just sitting here frustrated. Had a little cry & knew what it was all really about.... bubbling up like you say Sam.

But really just good to get away from it all. Regular timeout to relax is the way to go I have decided, I can cope with the failed IVF feelings so much better when not at work getting loads of other stress. Going to book the next counsellor time soon.

JenMH & Chinup hope you're doing Ok & everyone else. 
sending lots of good vibes & sunshine xxx


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