# After loads of ICSIfailures-starting thinking of going abroad-bit confused?HELP!



## mary k (Oct 27, 2005)

Hello
I am new to the 'going abroad' scene.
However after 5 failed ICSIs here in NIreland.. I feel I should try somewhere else.
I suppose I am tiring of the grim greyness of Belfast and have a sense of doom about the fertility centre there.

I am on the waiting list for ARGC but it is awfully expensive.

Therefore I am thinking of trying somewhere abroad.

However as I have made my first furtive flicks through this 'abroadies' section I am really confused ....it appears that the reason most are going abroad is in order to get DE or DS.
I am wondering if, in the absence of needing donors... do those with experience still think it worth travelling abroad?
Is it a lot cheaper?

Also v interested in knowing how long people stay in the other country? or how many trips are required. This is from a work perspective .. I have a limited amount of holidays I can take.

I am sorry this is a very vague post... and perhaps difficult to answer ... but I just don't know where to start...even if someone could give me a few pointers?

regards
Mary K


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## earthe kitt (May 7, 2005)

Hi Mary - If you want feedback on ARGC then you need to look back on some of AJ's old postings!!
I do know they are very expensive

I understand that if you are concerned you may have immune issues (I assume that's why you want ARGC) then clinics in Spain don't really take this on board but some of the other girls have had immune issues looked at in Kiev (Isida) and also in Greece - I think Twiggy has had some work done there.

Others are going abroad for other reasons than donor issues and are using their own eggs and sperm, the reasons may include:

Clean clinics
More professional  approach by staff 
Cost of treatment
Cost of drugs
Level of support
Ease of travel - usually easier to get to Spain or Poland than the next town - particularly with the current roadworks on the M1!!
More consistency in treatment

And best of all - No HFEA fee so we don't contribute to perpetuating the disinformation put out by thr HFEA

I would strongly suggest an initial visit - even if it's just a weekend or overnight so that you can find the clinic and sort out drugs, contacts etc

I would suggest you trawl back through a few pages and just see how you get the general feel of things.

Jo


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## daisyboo (Apr 5, 2005)

Hi Mary
I to am looking into other clinics i did look at the ARGC but i think it will unfortunately be out of our reach,
I have been looking into the Jinemed Clinic in Istanbul and am starting to favour this clinic over others.
I haven't really gone into it in loads of detail with this clinic yet, I'm just trying to gather up as much info as possible,
At jinemed we can have a course of ICSI 17 nights accommodation and flights for £3500 with a sucess rate of between 58-60% my clinic here cost me £3500 and gave me 23/25% chance. I to am using my own eggs and DH's sperm
I wouldn't of even thought of going abroad if i hadn't found this site the girls on here give you loads of info so it seems a little less scary.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
Leila x


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## Joeyad (Apr 26, 2006)

Hi Mary,
I agree that it can be very confusing when you first start out, I was the same, but the rest of the wonderful girls here at FF have really helped me out.  
I can't comment on using own eggs as I'm with Instituto Marques in Barcelona for DE IVF (early menopause), but I can say that the treatment that I have experienced from this Spanish clinic has outshone any of the private uk clinics that I have been to.  They are cleaner, more professional, less expensive & have better results.
I contacted IM & within 2 weeks we had our initial consultation & 2 weeks later (this Sunday) I am having egg transfer!!  Compare this to the Lister, who told me to expect to wait at least 2 years for a donor & wanted to charge me more for the pleasure!!

I would recommend spending some time sifting through the information on this site, as it will be time well spent.  I did this, knowing that I did not want to have treatment in the UK, & ended up with a list of overseas clinics.  I then narrowed it down to a country & then did some more research into those particular clinics before making the decision.

Go with what you feel comfortable with.  Good luck!!

Jo x


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## Rosalind (Jul 7, 2004)

Mary K- Hi, I also had the same thought that most people are going abroad for donor eggs or sperm.
But a friend of mine, who posts on FF went to Ceram with own eggs and has had twin girls recently!
So me and my DH went for a consultation in May. My eggs aren't that great so i was worried that they would say that i should use donor, but we are going to give it a go with my own again. They explained that before i had produced a lot of eggs but the quality wasn't great, so they are going to put me on different drugs so i don't produce alot but hopefully the quality will be better.
Ruth they fertility nurse is fab. She told us more in an hour than i've every been told in 6 years!!!!!!!!!
We are going out there in August for 2 weeks.
Please feel free to email me if you would like further details.
Roz


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## abbyw (Nov 30, 2005)

Hi there,

My DH and I went to the CERAM Clinic in Marbella. I used my own eggs. Luckily for us ICSI worked 1st time and I can't fault the CERAM clinic at all. It was amazing!  

We stayed in a lovely hotel and we were there for 10 days in total for treatment. We had flown out previously about 3 weeks before for our Initial consultation but I don't think everyone has to have one of these. 

Hope this helps and if you have any furthur questions don't hesitate to ask me. I know it's a bit of a minefield at first but we managed it anyway!  

Abby.


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## Claudine (Jul 27, 2004)

How serious is your male factor? Ours is pretty severe and I was pretty much written off by ARGC for my "elevated FSH", see history below for a brief synopsis. Can highly recommend Cornell. Have a look at their stats. www.ivf.org

Also www.maleinfertility.org for male factor.

One third of their patients are over 40, one third have failed elsewhere and they don't believe in FSH screening unlike ARGC.

If you'd like any further info, feel free to give me a shout.

By the way, have also heard good things about Belgium. They pioneered ICSI and are leading the European tables, can't be bad! Plus cost is very very much cheaper.

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## Dooleys (Feb 1, 2006)

*Hi Mary*

I'm so glad you started this thread, we too are thinking of going abroad for treatment, but have little or no idea where to start, its so confusing. We are lucky & do not need de or ds but are just fed up by the UK clinics attitude & lack of support or information.

*Daisyboo* Did the clinic give you that information on costing or is there a website with the prices

Like Mary any information is gratefully received.

Dooleys


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## daisyboo (Apr 5, 2005)

Hi Dooleys firstley i went to the website www.ivfturkey.com and had a nose round that then emailed them asking them to explain the whole TX process as in How long i would need to be there, Administring drugs etc and asked them how much an average ICSI cycle would be using own eggs/sperm and when the email came back it was all in £3500 (just checked the email again)Thats flights and 17 nights accomodation But they do ask you to go out before TX starts for bloods etc which cost £300 this does not include flight or acomodation. or they have a doctor in London who does it I'm assuming these would all be extra.
If you visit the london doctor you can shorten your days in Turkey down to 8-9 days.

Hope that helps
Leila

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## mini-me (Jul 23, 2004)

Hi Mary,

I may be one of the few people who would not reccommend the ARGC for everybody, especially poor responders.  I had 3 ICSI treatments there, each time on the high dose of 450 gonal f / puregon but only produced 4 eggs each time with abnormal egg coating in at least 2 of the attempts (we weren't told this until the 3rd follow up!).  I then went for a more gentle approach at another clinic on only 150 puregon and produced the same number of eggs all with normal 'shells' and we were able to have straight forward IVF.  Sadly none worked, but clearly the lower dose was better for my eggs.  I agree the ARGC is very expensive. 

I post on the abroadies thread and while most do seem to be doing DE, there are some using their own eggs, at Ceram in Spain I think, so do post on the abroadies thread for some info as I'm sure someone will be able to help.

Love mini-me
xxx


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## Dooleys (Feb 1, 2006)

*Hi Leila*

Thanks for the information, will look at that website. It sounds good. It really does help, as i had no idea where to start  

Good luck with your treatment

Dooleys


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## mary k (Oct 27, 2005)

Mini-me
Daisyboo
Claudine
Abby W
Rosalind
Joeyad
Earthe Kitt

Thank you so so so much for all your replies and offers of urther information.
I think I will be definately IM some of you in the future.
Its a great start and already I am putting the M1 to Belfast in the annals of history.

Few wee queries:
Mini-me & Rosalind - you both mentioned that your eggs had been of poor quality. I have had 5 ICSI treatments and the quality of my eggs has never been  discussed with me... I dont know if they were good or bad. I have a feelin that RVH Belfast do not look at the quality of the eggs... they only ever told me the quality of the embryos.
Do all clinics look at egg quality? 

Claudine- I have a friend who lives in Belgium so am particularly interested in the Belgian clinic you mention. Do you know it's name?
However your personal success at Cornell has also impressed me. How long did you have to go to NY for? or how many trips? Was it expensive?

you others aren't off the hook yet.... I am just starting out on this research (& kicking myself for all the time, money,.... life I have wasted up to this point)

cheers
Mary K


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## earthe kitt (May 7, 2005)

Mary hun - I think we're all kiciking ourselves that we wasted so much time and effort in these cr*p UK clinics.
My work calendar this week said - 

"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want" 

- I think UK clinics are good at dishing out "experience" 

Good luck with whichever route  you select

Jo


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## daisyboo (Apr 5, 2005)

I know what you mean about UK clinics   my first TX was NHS so i was lucky but i actually had to pay for my last TX and i was treated worse.
Well i have been a busy bee i have emailed off my med questionnaire to jinimed also with a shed load of other questions    and had my response.

DOOLEYS I double checked with the clinic the price doesn't include the flights but as they only will cost about £500 it's still not bad, 2 weeks hol (I wish) ICSI + meds, chauffeur driven to clinic everyday £4000 so tempting but i keep forgetting i will need spending money    .
They are getting in touch with me after they have spoken to the doctors   I'm really getting ahead of myself i did actually tell the clinic i probably wouldn't have TX until end of year beginning of next but they don't seem to mind me gathering all the info.

Hello to all xxxx


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## mary k (Oct 27, 2005)

Daisyboo
I notice that you said that you are going to stay 2 weeks in Istanbul...
I was wondering what 2 weeks of the ICSI cycle you are staying there for?
i.e. I am presuming that you must fly home during your 2ww?
Do you get the meds over here and start before you go or do you wait til you get there? 
Actually .. I am just thinking that perhaps it is unfair of me to ask you as you are only startin to research yourself. So perhaps someone else who has been there may be able to answer this question?
Or as I am still tentatively looking everywhere abroad...this info would be interesting regardless of what clinic you went to?

regards 
Mary K
(sorry still asking vague questions)


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## daisyboo (Apr 5, 2005)

Hi Mary
The ICSI cycle would start on day 3 of my AF and i would be there for 17 nights, they give you the meds there so i would be on short protocol, you don't do the meds yourself you attend the clinic everyday and the consultant does it for you, you can fly home 1/2 days after transfer.
Don't worry about asking me anything thats what we are all here for 
Love Leila x


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## Claudine (Jul 27, 2004)

Ooops Mary, sent that message to you far too quickly and didn't even manage to sign off with a nice little "bye for now"    Don't think I am rude, I was just rushing...

Didn't even save a copy so if you could paste relevant info for other ladies here if you think it's worthwhile?

As soon as I get any feedback from friend's friend re: clinic in Belgium I'll post it.

Jo, totally agree with you about the UK clinics and dishing out experience.  I am still so angry with my clinic for not being up front about our actual chances of success.  If they had been in any way ethical, they would have told us they did not really have the expertise to deal with our male factor.  We have lost years of our lives as a result, never mind the additional hurt and anguish suffered.


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## mary k (Oct 27, 2005)

This was Claudine's v informative response .... for which I am totally grateful.

'Hi there Mary

I'll copy my message onto the FF board for the others...

The Belgian clinic is Brussels Free University and I've just been trying to find the website for you. I've just emailed my friend to ask her to contact HER friend on our behalf! Will probably be quicker.

This is the article that mentions European success rates and UK position http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1512387,00.html

Briefly, we had 2 trips to NY. First was to have consultation with Schlegel, the urologist and second with Dr. Chung, the IVF consultant. I also had the endometrial biopsy done for co-culturing. (This is not done yet here in UK. Cells from the endometrium are placed in the embryo culture to (1) nourish (2) absorb bad stuff (3) accustom embies to uterine environment)

Second trip we stayed for 5 weeks but that was because I wanted to stay for the 2ww and do everything at Cornell from start to finish. Other women have just gone straight home after ET. Luckily my DH works for an american company and was able to work remotely from Manhattan office to be with me!

Total cost for absolutely everything, including two lots of flights, all consults, drugs, accommodation for 5 weeks... £15K.

NK cells "diagnosed" by ARGC. I think it takes a couple of weeks for results to come back from Chicago. Cornell don't "believe" in them, at least not for implantation failure but said always useful to have immune issues investigated as there are some valid disorders (e.g. blood clotting).

I never believed it was the cause of our failures.'

cheers again 
Mary K

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/color

[br]Posted on: 13/06/06, 12:59Hope you dont mind few more wee questions....
In your profile you say you had SP.... do you mind me asking what this is?

Also .. your husband seems to have a pretty comprehensive diagnosis. Was this all diagnosed at Cornell?
No-one in all our years of ART has even once examined my DH. They have merely counted his sperm. He has never so much as been asked to take his trousers down.
... I think this is bizarre....considering our problem is male factor.

regards
Mary K


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## Rosalind (Jul 7, 2004)

Mary K- I think i'm right in saying that if your embryos are of poor quality then it is probably an egg issue.
When i was at my clinic in The UK, i was never told this, but when i went to Ceram Ruth told me.
I learnt more with Ruth looking through my UK notes, in an hour and a half, than i have in 6 years with a UK clinic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me Know if you want more info
Roz


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## Claudine (Jul 27, 2004)

Hi Mary

Will reply direct here to save you cutting and pasting!

SP is short protocol.  Had always had long protocol at B'ham Womens, which I think may have had an effect on my FSH.  It was quite a relief not to have to go through the whole d/r process I can tell you.

Most of the diagnosis for DH was actually done at B'ham (albeit slowly and painfully) though he had very little in the way of physical examination and no ultrasound was ever offered (which I thought was pretty poor).  So chromosomal analysis, bloods, CF gene all tested for in UK.  In US, DH had a very thorough u/s (took over an hour), varicoceles identified.

However, Schlegel in NY goes one step further in that he does try drug regimes to increase production of sperm.  Why not?  Women are quite happy to take Clomid to help ovulation, I think it is only a matter of time before it becomes accepted for male infertility.

By the way, our embryos were always average quality, and never greater than 7 cell at day 3.  I think consultants in UK are only too happy to blame egg and sperm quality to make up for shortcomings elsewhere at clinic (embryo transfer, embryo culturing)

I think we had a bit of magic and a lot of skill as far as Cornell goes.  I really don't think we would have succeeded anywhere else, given our factors.


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