# Abortion law



## loobylou713

They are on about abortions today on the news saying that at 20 weeks the baby doesn't feel pain so it is ok to abort it. I have got on my soap box and start a petition on number 10's web site saying if woman are using abortions as a form of contraception then they should pay for the abortion. If women have to pay to get pregnant then they should pay to get rid of it. I think only medical reasons should be allowed. A lot of girls use the route of can't mentally cope. Lets see if they can cope with infertility when they want a child. I know this is my opinion and some people won't agree with what i have said but can't help the way i feel.

Linda


----------



## Karenphi

Hi Linda,

I have similar views to you and think that the time limit should be dropped for all cases apart from ones on medical grounds. After suffering from infertility I can't understand why anyone would abort a baby unless for severe medical reasons. After seeing the Despatches program about a abortion a few weeks ago I don't believe in abortion at all unless on medical grounds. I found the program so shocking infact I was crying for the whole length of the program.

Do you have your link to your petition?

Take care,
Karen


----------



## Bettykitten

Hi There

The abortion one is a difficult one isn't it, specially when we want to be pregnant, it sometimes seem's so unfair.  I would like to say that I do respect your opinion but I kind of sit on the fence with this one.

I guess that people terminate pregnancies for lots of reason's not just as a form of contraception, and people do what is right for them at that time in their life.  For some people, having a baby is not the right thing for them, and they have the right to make this decision.  Some women who use this site may have terminated a pregnancy at some point in their life and may now be having to live with that decision, remembering though that at the time it was the right decision.  Saying this I do think I could feel frustrated with people that have numerous terminations due to irresponsible behaviour.  

I guess it is also worth bearing in mind that some people would say that fertility treatment is not the right thing to do and nature should be left well alone (obviously I disagree with this). 

I think that what i am trying to say is that there are several arguments to this topic though I do hear what you are saying and do not want to disrespect that.

Peggy

Ps I have never myself had a TOP but would support anyone that was to have one.


----------



## TwiceBlessed

Hi there

I know that if my own mother had believed in abortion for herself I am unlikely to have been here (diagnosis of many health issues in the womb which turned out to be unfounded).  Also for me personally I couldnt terminate unless there was definitely no chance of life- even had problems dealing with my own MMC last year as even though I had seen evidence of lack of life, couldnt process in my head the fact that I was "getting rid" of the pregnancy with an ERPC.

That said I respect the choice of others to terminate.  However, as I personally see it 20w or effectively 15/16w in "knowledge of pregnancy" terms is an inordinate amount of time to decide whether you wish to continue an unwanted pregnancy for non-medical reasons or if it is just not "convenient".  Where fetal anomalies are found at the 20w scan I can understand the "need" to ensure that the option for termination is still there, but where it is a lifestyle choice I feel it it really is not this necessary to have this length of time to decide.  The possibility of a 24w TOP I do find abhorrent especially as with medical advances the chances of life for babies actually born at this time has improved greatly.  I also believe that the 2 doctor sign off should remain.

Abortion is, and will continue to be, a very emotive issue, especially for those of us with fertility issues.  I guess there is no right answer however believe that it is right to keep reassessing our laws on this subject and opening debate. 

This is just MHO and I listen to all arguments for and against....

I guess that means I am  fence sitter too?


----------



## loobylou713

heres the link to the petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/paying/

Linda

/links


----------



## emms

Hi Ladies,

As we have already mentioned Abortion is a very sensitive issue for many people. And each and everone of us will have our own opinion, this is mine: 

I find it very hard to understand how a team of doctors in one hospital can be saving the life of a premature baby born at 24 weeks gestation, and in a clinic somewhere else, the law is allowing a healthy baby to be terminated at 24 weeks because the pregnancy is unwanted, this to me does not make sense. 
Which is why I personally believe that the laws surrounding termination need to be updated, I believe that termination for "social reasons" should have a cut of point of 12 weeks, as this really does provide a sufficient window of opportunity for a mother to make her decision. I also agree that two doctors should be signing the consent forms for each termination. 
On the other hand I believe that the opportunity for termination up to 24 weeks should still be available for those women, who tragically for the sake of their own health, or that of their baby need to make the harrowing decision to terminate, and I have the utmost sympathy for any family that have to make such an awful decision. 

Medical advances are so great these days that more and more baby's born at 23/24 weeks gestation are making a tremendous bid for survival, When I started getting complications with my pregnancy at 17+6 weeks, I remember the consultant saying to me that my goal should be to get to 24 weeks, and then take each day as it comes after that, 24 weeks in my mind became a bench mark for survival, however small the chances. However my twin sons were born as perfectly formed sleeping angels at 18+4 weeks, and I find it so hard to believe that while my husband and I will be visiting our twins grave to mourn their loss, somewhere else in the country, babies who are the same age or up to 5 weeks older than them will be terminated for no logical reason. 

I hope I haven't upset anybody but I just wanted to voice my opinion.

Emma.


----------



## loobylou713

Emms- that was so well put I don't think anyone who read that would disagree with you.

Linda


----------



## Sofia26

This is a really sensitive issue and i would just like to share with you that i appreciate you all have your own opinions in relation to this matter and do know where you are coming from.  However i would like you to try and look at it from this point of view, although it probably wont change your opinions i would at least ask for you to try and look at it from someone elses perspective.

At 17 years of age i discovered that i was 5 weeks pregnant. It was not a good time in my life and i was stupid, i was in a abusive, destructive and very violent relationship at such a young age and i felt that the only thing i could do was to have an abortion and it did at 7 weeks. a few weeks later i woke up and realised that i couldn't be in this relationship anymore and finally left him. 

Its now nearly 10 years later and i have Premature Ovarian Failure, and my husband has Azoospermia. After having nearly 4 years of fertility treatment and now being told i will not have my own genetic child, let me tell you there isn't a day that goes by that i don't think about what i did aged 17 years. 

I think Linda commented saying ....."A lot of girls use the route of can't mentally cope. Lets see if they can cope with infertility when they want a child"

and my answer to this is " yes i did say 10 years ago that i couldn't cope and i maintain that stance and beleive it, and now with infertility staring me in the eyes on a daily basis, i don't cope with that either" 

life is hard but i live with the 'choice' that i made, i had my own reasons for doing so and even though that was my only chance of having a child genetically mine(even though i didn't know it at the time), i agree with the choice i made. I am the one who has to live with that and do live with it. Although not everyone who has an abortion has such circumstances, they do have their own reasons. I truly beleive that if i had not had an abortion then that nasty creature of a man would have been in my life forever and my childs, which is something i didn't want. Is that selfish - maybe but i know i made the right choice. Don't get me wrong, there are days when i cry and wish i didn't have the abortion, but i know i made the right choice becasue that eveil man would have made my childs life a misery and any child that i do have i would want to have control over which direction it went in and a good life not the direction that that man would have taken us in. I was vulnerable and scared.

I've not written this post to get up anyones nose or upset anyone becasue i myself am still going through treatment and have lost a child when i had a miscarriage last year, i know that pain and suffering we all go though to have a child. however people who make these life choices also go through pain and suffering.

I wish you all luck on your journeys
Sofia


----------



## ♥samonthemoon♥

Hi ladies, 
Like most i find the 20wk limit unimaginable. I understand that for some women to carry on with a pregnancy is just not an option for many reasons, and this is their choice and one that i'm sure they will live with for the rest of their lives. I know people who have had abortions one of which has had 4 as she is just too lazy to use contraceptives!!cShe has 5 children too and the terminations were in between these pregnancys!! This is her choice and yes they were carried out early but in my opinion if she had of had to pay to have these done then she may have thought twice about her view on contraception! I also know people who have had them because they genuinly couldn't face it for one reason or another, again these were carried out at around 6 wks so asap. It is these people that i sympathise with because the decition was not taken lightly and i know for a fact that it still plays on there minds to this day infertility or not! 
I believe stronglly that the cut off point should be 12 weeks max UNLESS for medical reasons in relation to the mother or childs health at which i think 20wks should still be allowed. 

So to sum up...
12 wk cut off for non medical TOP
All non medical abortions should have to be paid for 
TOP for medical reasons should stay at the current limit

Sorry if these views offend anyone as i do not wish to do that, but i really believe the 20wk limit for non medical reasons is monsterous and unnecissary if we had more awareness then maybe there would be less people in the situation in the first place... By awareness i mean when thinking about a termination, The 2 doc sign off SHOULD BE KEPT IN PLACE! If not upped as i do not feel like there is enough support or encouragement to keep a pregnancy when u see doc about it. After having accompanied a couple of friends many years ago to such appointments the complete lack of cincern by the docters i found was laughable..... A few questions and off you go!!! 
Show these women pictures of their baby's and inform them as best you can about the mental implications of a TOP before you sign their baby's lifes away mr docter man, for god sake do ur job!!!

Sam xxx


----------



## loobylou713

Sofia the whole point of a discussion is everyone as their views no one as the right to tell someone what they should believe or think. At the time you believed you was doing the right thing even now you do that is the good thing about this country that we have choice. My point maybe not put over too well is if abortion was not available so easy maybe the girls would have no option but to consider adoption. If abortion was available in the 60's as it is now i would not be here you see i am a child of an affair.

We have to pay for IVF or any other fertility treatment that we need maybe some women might be a bit more responsible. There are different cases with everyone and obviously some are right and some are wrong.

I agree with a limit of upto 12 weeks is fair enough for non medical abortions in that time normally a woman knows if she wants the baby or not. There are going to be the young girls who kept it from their parents who will miss that cut off i think 24 weeks for non medical abortions is too late.


----------



## Sofia26

Linda, i'm fully aware of what a 'discussion' is and i was mearly commenting on your comment about 'if they could cope with infertility'. I was of the opinion that as i am one of those people who have had a termination and now have fertility issues, i would be best able to address your comment and tell you how exactly it feel. 

I feel that alot of peopole on this discussion thread are making it sound like people who have abortions treat it like going shopping, for some people this may be true however for alot of people it isn't.

Im not saying that i agree with every situation where a termination takes place, i was mearly commenting that things aren't always as clear cut, which i beleive my situation wasn't.

Sofia


----------



## loobylou713

Sofia if you had a choice now that you are a little older would of gone for adoption? I am not getting at you for what you decided to do. I supported a friend when i was younger when she went through one.

Would you agree with the fact that if a woman got pregnant and had the choice of having the morning after pill but didn't get it then found out she was pregnant and then decided to have an abortion do you think she should pay considering how much a couple of tablets is and how much an abortion would be.

If the women who had abortions had to pay it might make a few more responsible also maybe the money could go to making a life.


----------



## Sofia26

Linda

When i had my termination i considered all of the choices, because i did have choices, and if i had continued with the pregnancy the chances of having a live birth due to his violence were slim. So adoption wasn't an option for me and even if i had continued to have a child and then adopt i don't know how i would have coped knowing now that i can't have children but i did have one out there. I know that that is a selfish comment. However like you said in your first post sometimes you just cant help the way you feel.

You go on to mention about the morning after pill, i don't agree with people who use a termination as a method of contraception and i do agree that if they had a choice to take the pill and didn't then they should pay. 

I did have to go through the process of having 2 doctors to certify me to have the termination and i went to three who refused becasue of their own christian beleifs. I didn't judge them and accepted their reason. Sometimes it isn't easy to just drop in and have a termination. Its a hard choice for some people and i didn't make the decision lightly.I cried for a long time and i cry now for the fact that i can't have my own genetic child. 

Sofia


----------



## wishing4miracle

everyone has their own views on this subject.to me im in two minds.before all this ff rubish i believed that everyone had a right to have abotions ect.but since all this ff its changed my thoughts in rights and wrongs about it all.i believe when a child is created and it attaches itself to the mother it becomes a baby.even if it doesnt show a heartbeat or looks like a baby.its a creation between to people as a sign of love and not as an exuse that conception failed blah blah blah.at 20wks a baby is fully formed and and has thoughts,feeling,dreams,characteristics ect.i believe only if there is anything wrong medeiaclly then maybe look into aborting only if it puts the baby out of any pain ect then its ok to put it to sleep and to be taken away for its own good.not because a mother cant be bothered to take responsability for her actions.there are many people like ourselves that would love to have our own child even if it means it not being our own flesh and blood.there are many wanted babies out there.couples are crying out for them out there.its not a matter of money if someone should be able to have a termination free or not.its about the baby created havina choice.i understand the comment being made.it makes me angry that im/we arnt entilled to tx because we are too young.but if i was obese,a smoker,a drinker a druggy ect i could get other tx for free.


----------



## em3978

I've always been 'pro-choice' when it comes to the subject of abortion... however, saying that I KNOW and always have done that I could not go through with one unless my baby had a serious complication that made it completely incompatible with life.

I know for other women a termination is often the best way forward for them. Yes, they should have been more careful, we all know about contraception (or should do from early teens) but sometimes mistakes happen, sometimes contraception fails. 

There are of course the other reasons for termination (ie. rape etc) that others have mentioned that are also perfectly valid reasons.

I personally didn't know I was pregnant until I was at least 8 weeks gone, I have VERY irregular periods and had absolutely no symptoms. A limit of 10-12 weeks would have been pushing it for me, were I to decide to not continue... however, I do still believe that 12ish weeks should be the limit for 'social' abortions.

I still think that the upper limit should be kept (roughly), but purely for medical reasons. I've read several stories on here and other boards where parents found severe disabilities at the 20 week scan, with a time for thinking/talking/decisions, then the actual termination, the 24 week limit seems still sensible in that situation.

Thats just my thoughts, in the order they just came out of my head... I hope that it offends no-one...


----------



## chandelle

I think abortions should be limited to something like 14 weeks and under, barring medical issues. 

I also think it is crucial that women receive proper counselling and advice about their decision, and that living in a "pro choice" society shouldn't mean health professionals can't discuss with the patient the possibility of keeping the baby.

The biggest regret of my life is a termination I had at the age of 33. It was a "mistake" that happened between going off the pill to give my body a break and starting to use condoms. I didn't think i could immediately fall pregnant in those 10 days or so we didn't use protection. (I knew absolutely nothing then about fertility after 17 years on the pill.)

I made the decision mainly because i had been drinking and smoking cannabis frequently before finding out I was pregnant and I was certain that would have materially harmed the baby. Also for the stupider reason that I didn't want my husband to think i had accidentally on purpose gotten pregnant, because I reallly hadn't and at the time had very mixed feelings about motherhood. 

I was between GPs at the time so went to a sexual health clinic and found it would take a few weeks to get it done on the NHS. (I was about 5-6 weeks gone.) I paid instead to have it done privately right away. Basically I wanted to pretend it had never happened and secretly was reassured that i had fallen pregnant so easily, just in case we decided later on to have kids.

At no stage did anyone suggest that I was at an age where conceiving might not be possible later on, and maybe I should consider keeping the baby. I was also not informed about the actual chances of effects from drugs and alcohol. Two doctors signed off on it but that was literally just box checking, neither said a word to me about what i was doing or why.

Subsequently I have miscarried twice and now find it impossible to conceive.

what might have been ... unfortunately i have to live with this for the rest of my life. Obviously I blame myself and my ignorance, but maybe I would have decided against it if i had been informed about the reality of my reproductive chances.


----------



## ~ Chux ~

I would imagine (and hope) that it is only a very, very small minority of ladies that view abortion as a contraceptive (that's just what the media want us to think), although I did work with a girl (she was 19 at the time) who had just had her third which did make me angry. She even moaned that they were talking to her about contraceptive afterwards as if she was a 5 year old and I had to bite my tongue to stop myself telling her that obviously it was necessary.

Anyway, I digress. As far as I understand there isn't a limit on when an abortion can be carried out on medical grounds so that shouldn't come into it. Also, although the limit is currently 24 weeks, many clinics have a cut-off point several weeks before then.

chux xx


----------



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ ©

Hi

I honestly wasn't going to reply on this topic as it's such an emotive subject and one where its quite easy to get upset or take offence.

However, after reading some of these replies I decided that I would give my own personal experience.

I was diagnosed with severe endo and adhesions when I was 19 and told that it was unlikely I'd ever conceive naturally.  I was on the pill from the age of 16 (partly because I was in a relationship so sexually active and partly because of my endo pains, albeit not yet diagnosed at that time)...when I was diagnosed with endo at 19 I was advised to take the pill continuously, with no breaks, for 3-6mths at a time as this would help with the endo.

I was 21 and started getting really really bad cramps and pains, was concerned my endo was coming back so I went to the GP.  GP also thought it was most likely my endometriosis but said that I was to do a pg test, just to rule that out before referring me to specialist again for my endo.  It was +ve.  I was shocked to say the least (as was my GP !) as I hadn't missed a period (which were regular 28 days !), had no symptoms, past history saying probably not possible...and I was on the pill !  I was sent for a dating scan as they needed to know what was going on...one of the worst experiences of my life...obviously all the ladies there were understandably happily pg, the sonographer asked if I wanted to watch the screen...I couldn't...I was told I was 9 weeks pg...I just cried when I left.  Speaking to the GP, the only thing we could think of was that I was bulimic so I was being sick and this had obviously weakened the pill's effectiveness....ok, so some would say that I should know this - I did ! - but because of being told 2 years previously, that it was unlikely I'd conceive anyway, it didn't really cross my mind...naive maybe but I certainly wouldn't call myself stupid or irresponsible.

I was in a long term relationship but it had soured and become very abusive and was on the brink of splitting up (we did so a few months later) and I was about to return to university...this was not the "right" time for me to be having a child that I would not be able to support and would also link me with a man that I had no desire to be in contact with for the rest of my life.  It wasn't a decision I took lightly, it was probably one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make and I thought long and hard about it...but I chose to have a termination at 11 weeks...a day I will remember for the rest of my life.

It was NOT an easy decision and it is something that I have to live with for the rest of my life.  In light of my situation now, I have spend many nights crying for what may have been my only chance...but in the logical and realistic moments, I know it was the right decision for me at the time...I couldn't have brought up a child in an abusive, unhappy relationship and I couldn't have brought the child up alone, financially crippled and perhaps selfishly, given up my university place...and subsequently I would never have met my wonderful boyfriend who is my rock.  This is a choice I made and now I have had 4 early miscarriages/chemical pregnancies, been through several IVF/FET treatment cycles...I know what it's like from both sides...possibly some may say what I'm going through is perhaps punishment for what I did ?!

The reason I'm giving my experience is that none of us should judge anyone who has a termination.  Yes, some may use it as a form of contraception but I firmly believe that is the minority rather than the majority.  I can also completely understand why someone who has been raped may not want to keep that child....it may cause them to relive their trauma every day...is that a good or healthy environment for a child...and adoption is not always an option either, it's an incredibly hard decision to make, just as the decision to have a termination is an incredibly hard decision to make for most of us.  Whilst I understand the debate about late abortion, again, this is very much the minority...90% of abortions are carried out before 13 weeks and 98% are carried out before 20 weeks.

Anyway, I can see both sides of the debate but what we have to remember is that late abortions are very much the minority and I don't feel that any of us has the right to judge another who chooses to have an abortion, for whatever reason.

I apologise if I've upset or offended anyone...certainly not my intention, but I just wanted to remind others that whilst all of us are suffering from infertility issues of some sort, some of us have also been on the "other side" and had a termination, something we now have to live with without coming under criticism from others who may not understand the individual situations.

Just thought I'd add....I always used to think that abortion was "wrong"...we'd had a pro-life lady come into school when I was 14 to give a chat to all of us (strangely we never had a pro-choice lady visit)...after this I really didn't think that abortion was a good thing...however, when I was placed in a situation which meant I had to make a decision that could ultimately change my life forever, I had to consider the options open to me...another reason why no-one should judge anothers situation, as opinions can change when situations dictate.

I wish everyone lots of love and luck  
Take care
Natasha xx


----------



## sunny24

HI THERE,  I JUST WANTED TO SAY I PERSONAL DO NOT BELIEVE IN ABORTION UNLESS THE BABY IS SERVERLY POORLY AND WOULD HAVE NO QUALITY OF LIFE.  

I WORK WITH A GIRL THAT HAS HAD 4 ABORTIONS AND WHEN SHE TOLD ME I CRYED (IN PRIVATE). AFTER 4 YEARS TTC ITS SOMETHING I DONT NEED TO KNOW ABOUT, HOWEVER EVERY ONE HAS THERE OWN OPPION ON THE SUBJECT BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE THAT DO HAVE ABORTIONS FOR THERE OWN PERSONAL ISSUSE SUFFER FOR THE REST OF THERE LIFE AND IT NEVER LEAVES THEM WHAT THEY HAVE DECIEDED UPON.  THATS WHY I WILL NEVER JUDGE ANYONE FOR DOING WHATS RIGHT FOR THEM!

WHAT I AM TRING TO SAY IS I DONT JUDGE ANYONE FOR THE DICISION THEY MAKE, I REALLY HOPE I HAVE NOT UPSET ANYONE AS I SAY ITS JUST MY OPPION.

SAM XXXXXX


----------



## Charlies-Mum

> Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge me


As someone who had a late termination I can honestly say that it is a difficult and traumatic thing to do. There is an article in todays Guardian about women who made similar decisions to mine and I would urge you to read it before setting your mind in stone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2202681,00.html

I'll stop writing now as I'm a veteran of this 'age old argument' and I don't want to get embroiled in it again.

Deb


----------



## Lorna

I have been reading this thread, and I wanted to chip in.

Probably about 5 years ago, a drug company did research into why so many people objected to drug testing on animals.  They looked at 16/18year olds, and asked them questions, about animal testing.  They then realised, that most teenagers took their info from TV/radio/newspapers.  And that most teenagers hadn’t developed the ability to critically analyse information put before them.
The one teenager, who recently, did analyse all the data he could find on animal testing, and then set up a web site with his findings, received masses of hate mail, as he came out pro animal testing.

Newspapers are about selling more newspapers.  Radio, and TV are about increasing audience figures  Nothing about the media is about intellectual analysis of the issues.  It’s about entertainment, holding people’s interest, etc.  For proper analysis of a subject, IMO, you need to go to peer reviewed scientific literature.  For abortion that is stuff written by, medical personnel, doctors, psychiatrists, trained counsellors., etc..  And even then you have to filter the data to make sense of the information! 

Lets look at how the HFEA manipulates the media.  There was a story earlier this year, about how the HFEA had managed to increase the number of sperm donors, despite the change in the law on anonymity.  The media, went “isn’t it wonderful!”, “What a good job the HFEA is doing!”, etc.  I went, so the HFEA has increased the number of sperm donors from 250 to 269, and there are currently at least 9000 couples, going through infertility treatment, because of male factor problems.  269 into 9000........ brain explode.
How many of you have been warned about the dangers of going abroad for treatment?  If you do the analysis, the UK is bottom of the league tables of pregnancy success rates; clinics standards have now been raised to those of the rest of the EU, and you pay more in the UK for treatment, because of the excessive bureaucracy of the HFEA.  So by going abroad, you might well end up with better quality treatment at lower cost, but the media is still full of dire warnings.
How many of the British public think the HFEA was right to remove Mr Taranissi as the named person for the ARGC clinic, particularly after that wonderfully informative Panorama program, that the BBC did.  Surely anyone who objects to this, can’t care about the patients Mr Taranissi treats?!!!!!!

Lets get back to the abortion debate.  Maybe 12 years, I read a news group, soc.women, which had a similar debate.  “Lets ban abortion altogether”, a more extreme version of lets reduce the time limit.
Someone posted a very detailed analysis of contraception, and abortion.  They looked at women in the 15 to 45 age group.  They looked at census data, on married and cohabiting couples, and assumed women, in these type of relationships were sexually active.  They took an intelligent guess, using data gathered from social studies, to estimate how many single women were sexually active.  They assumed, that those in gay relationships were unlikely to have an wanted pregnancy, and so on and so on
They worked out albeit with some guess work, how many women in the USA, were sexually active.
They then looked at the other side of the coin, contraception.  They looked at figures on how many women took the pill, used condoms, etc., etc.  They worked out failure rates, and how many unplanned pregnancies there were.  REMEMBER - Contraception only works for most women, most of the time.
And they worked out, that the overwhelming majority of the 3 MILLION unplanned pregnancies were caused by contraception failure.  Yes, some were undoubtedly caused by women who were not on contraception, having a one night stand, but most unplanned pregnancies were as a result of contraception failure.  The reality is that there are very, very few women, who have multiple abortions, instead of using contraception.  Our views are, once again, being negatively manipulated by the media.
As there were at that time, less than 1.5 million abortion, it seems an awful lot of women, when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant, decide to keep the baby.

This poster on soc.women, then looked at the number of childless couples in the US, and worked out that even if, all the children, who were aborted, were available for adoption, each couple would get a fraction of a child.  There are an awful lot of people wanting to have children who can’t, and even if there was a ban on abortion, the number of extra babies being born, just wouldn’t put a very small Band-Aid on a very big gapping wound.

Now lets look at the idea of banning abortion, and going for adoption.  For me that is unbelievably cruel.  A woman carries a child for 9 months, and then is forced, by circumstance to give up the child.  That woman must really suffer.
So what happens is, you end up with, many more women on social security, living in subsidised council flats in lousy areas, because they won’t give up their child.

Then, lets look at the babies born.  We have the fallacy that, any baby, put for adoption, will be adopted.  3 to 4 per 10,000 are born with severe disabilities, which are undetectable *before* birth.  These 3 to 4 children, need life long care, and will live a normal life expectancy.  These children *never* grow up, and move away from their parents.  Then you have the lesser disabilities, like blindness or deafness, babies who need extensive surgery, and so on.
You probably disagree with the reality, but the hard reality, which no one in adoption circles seems to be able to change, is that it is just about impossible, to find anyone to adopt babies who have an identifiable set of problems.  And these babies end up in care for life.  Yes some people will adopt children like this, but far too few for the number of children there are.
And then you have the situation, where some mothers may have a child, and then age 2-3 give the child up for adoption, because they can’t cope.  And these children may well have difficulties like Autism, or learning difficulties.  They are as unadoptable as babies born with difficulties, so we end up with 1000s of children in care, because we stopped abortion.  And the money, that could have been used to support IVF, on the NHS, is diverted to looking after, already born children in care.  And substantial amounts, as these children have special needs.
Yes healthy children are terminated, but I don’t think we should force another women to suffer (give up her child for adoption) just because we can’t have kids.


Early versus late abortion.  
The majority of late abortions, past 20 weeks are carried out because of foetal abnormality.  The rest, women going through the change may not realise they are pregnant, women with irregular periods, and so on.  And no woman would opt for a late termination, as it is such a horrible thing to do.
Those women going through multiple abortions, ( a tiny, tiny fraction of all abortions) instead of using contraception, are doing early terminations, which you wouldn’t ban anyway.  And as an aside I do have sympathy for the woman who was denied a sterilization on the NHS, but was offered mutiple abortions.  She was allergic to chemical contraception, and as we all know condoms are unreliable.

Yes doctors do battle to save babies of less than 26 weeks gestation, because their parents plead with them to do so.  There is a standing rule in Denmark(? ? ? ?), somewhere else in Europe(? ? ?), that doctors will not resuscitate a child born at less than 26 weeks, as the prognosis is too poor.  Why did they make this rule?  Heartless, unfeeling, uncaring monsters, or because it just might be better for the child?  Yes techniques are improving, but they are not there yet.

So no I don’t think the 24 weeks limit should be lowered, just yet.

Just my thoughts,

Lorna


----------



## emms

just my thoughts/opinion on the follwing comment:

Yes doctors do battle to save babies of less than 26 weeks gestation, because their parents plead with them to do so. There is a standing rule in Denmark(? ? ? ?), somewhere else in Europe(? ? ?), that doctors will not resuscitate a child born at less than 26 weeks, as the prognosis is too poor. Why did they make this rule? Heartless, unfeeling, uncaring monsters, or because it just might be better for the child? Yes techniques are improving, but they are not there yet.

If a child is born below 26 weeks, I do not  believe that Doctors try to save them "because their parents plead with them to do so", they save them because they are a little life, and they deserve the dignity of being treated as such. Would it be right to deny life saving treatment to a very elderly and infirm patient because they may not have long left, of course it wouldn't, therefore however young or old a living soul is, they all deserve to receive the treatment that they need.

A life is a life however young or old.


----------



## zoie

hi i just wanted to post my view

i have a very different story really as i have a genetic lung condition called cystic fibrosis
i am 22 and have been taking clomid.
for me to get pregnant is such a joy to me but the doc are not to surportive
a pregnancy could put my life at risk or my child could have cystic fibrosis
i have choose to still go ahead and would turn down having an abortion even if i was ill
i live my life greatly with my husband and we both dont agree with young people having abortions my view is whats ment to be is that and you live with it
i am also understanding that if an unborn child would have no quality of life then it would be kinder to abort,
but i must hence if your told your child has a serious illness just look into it my mum was told to abort me as the blood tests came back that something was wrong they said i would be in a wheel chair and my mum would have to support me for the rest of her life.
how wrong were they!! yes i have an illness but i still had the right to be born and given a chance i think the docs are to quick to say theres something wrong get rid


----------



## Betty M

Here is a link to the Select Committee report which has all the facts and figures http://www.badscience.net/wp-content/uploads/hc-1045-i-final-abortion-report.pdf .

Betty


----------



## Bettykitten

Hi

I think that it is worth been mindfull that it is not actually easy to get a late termination.  Lots of hospitals only offer TOP up to 12/14 weeks and anyone more advanced in pregnancy would have to be referrred with good reason to a clinic that specialises in this.

I am in agreement with others that it is the minority rather than the majority who use TOP as a form of contraception.  Professionally I have supported women who have had to make decisions regarding both early and late TOP due to rape/medical or social reasons.  I have had first hand experience of women who have considered TOP as adoption has not been an option and I have seen them go through a painful and agonising time deciding if a TOP is the right thing for them to do.  

It is very easy for us to sit in judgment of people if we have not had experience of this ourselves (something I would not wish on anyone).  Please do bear this in mind as I am sure most women do not take the decision to terminate a pregnancy lightly. 

I wish everyone well.  Peg


----------



## bendybird

This is an extremely sensitive subject  

I was very young when i first fell pregnant, me and my DP had only been together several months and it was an unwanted shock!  We both still lived at home, i was 18 , we enjoyed our lifestyles and really didn't know who to cope with the thought of having a baby.  Yes, there is contraception and i totally understand i should have used it more carefully but it happened and we had to deal with it.

The next 3 weeks we're torture believe me, we thought of and spoke of nothing but what we should do for the best.    

As much as i never thought i would have, i was seriously considering having an abortion.  UNLESS you are in the situation, you don't know how you will feel.  

I miscarried 3 weeks later and the decision was made for me- who knows what i would have done, i still wonder now.

Never judge people until you know how it is to be in the situation.

I do however agree that unless it is for medical reasons the limit should be moved to 12 weeks, 24 seems too late.
Bendybird.xx


----------



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ ©

superstar84 said:


> Another article or discussion point - it was reported about adoptions and that.
> 
> Instead of having an abortion for an unwanted baby why not give it up for adoption? Why can't that be considered a viable way of saving life.
> 
> Sades
> xx


Sades...

...as I mentioned in my previous post and others have also replied, giving up a child for adoption is an incredibly hard decision to make and it was not something I could go through with. It was something I considered but ultimately was not the choice I made for my own personal reasons. It's not as easy as your comment seems to imply. Although how things turn around, it is something that me & DP have chatted about because after over 4 yrs ttc, 6mths of clomid to boost and 5 IVF/FET cycles (and 4 early mc's/chemical pgs), maybe in time we will adopt, if further treatment still continues not to work......some may say I'm getting my "just deserts" for what I did....I don't believe thats fair but I know its what some people think/believe....

Also as I mentioned, I think that it is difficult for anyone who has not been in the position of finding themselves pregnant and not knowing what to do with it(for want of a better expression, an "unwanted" pregnancy)...to understand how it feels unless they've been there and should therefore never judge...I know I, and I believe the majority of women, do not take having a termination lightly...it's an incredibly difficult and heartrending decision to make and something we have to come to terms with, without criticism from others, especially in light of our current situation.

There are many many reasons why someone has a termination and doesn't choose to have that child adopted, some have already been mentioned in previous posts in this thread.

Unless you know the persons situation completely & their reasons for having a termination (rather than keeping it/adopting it), then I would urge you not to form unwarranted opinions on us...please.

Take care
Natasha xx


----------



## Klingon Princess

I'm new to this discussion and I've just read it through from begining to end.  I have to say, its given me a lot to think about.  

I've lost track of who said what, but someone posted that a woman should not have to suffer by having to give birth and then give it up for adoption.  I'm sure a woman in that situation would suffer.  but equally, one thing seems clear is that women who decide to abort, do suffer over the decision, some for a very long time.

It seems to me a very selfish attitude that its ok to kill a baby rather than let it live and grow up with someone else.  I'm talking here about healthy babies as opposed to those with serious medical problems.  Especially in the light of the fact it is now socially acceptable to be a single mother.

Obviously people have abortions for many reasons and I can only sympathise with the circumstances that forced them to make that decision and be thankful it has never happened to me.

I was in the pub recently and heard a woman, probably in her early 30's say loudly, that if she got pregnant, no big deal, she'd just have another abortion.  It is that type of attitude I have a problem with.

my local hospital will not do fertility treatment, they say it is non essential.  however, they are perfectly happy to carry out NHS abortions, many of which are from a medical viewpoint at least, equally non-essential.

Faced with ongoing fertility treatment, I wish now, I hadnt been so careful when I was young.  Maybe then i would have the family I've always dreamed of.


Kehlan


----------



## Lorna

>I was in the pub recently and heard a woman, probably in her early 30's say loudly, 
>that if she got pregnant, no big deal, she'd just have another abortion.

As to this woman in the pub, who knows why she said, what she said.

Firstly we have know way of knowing what was said before she made her statement.....
Maybe her workaholic boss was standing behind her, and had encouraged the previous woman who got pregnant to leave.  I have known many women who have lost out on that interesting project, or failed to get a promotion, because their boss thought they might get pregnant.
And we also don’t know whether, she would really have an abortion, if she got pregnant.
And if were to get pregnant, and she chose to have an abortion, whether she would really be as glib.
Or whether it was, just, the drink talking.  Who knows.

Lorna

PS As to NHS hospitals being willing to give abortions, my impressions are that it may be easier to have a termination, than infertility treatment on the NHS, but it isn’t easy.  Or why do private organisations, that charge hundreds of pounds, exist.  BPAS for one?


----------



## Lorna

>If a child is born below 26 weeks, I do not believe that Doctors try to save them 
>"because their parents plead with them to do so", they save them because they are 
>a little life, and they deserve the dignity of being treated as such.
>A life is a life however young or old.
I sorta of agree where there is life, there is hope. On the hand there are cases where intervention will extend a patients life, but experience has taught medical personnel, that the quality of that extended life, may be poor. It all depends on the patient, their families, their situation, etc. etc. It is a very difficult decision to make.
The doctors could have kept my father alive for months, using fairly simple technology. But what would my fathers quality of life have been? Not good, so he was allowed to die.
I have a friend, who tragically lost both his parents to cancer, one after another. He felt very strongly, that the doctors jumped in with high tech treatments, when, in his parents case, it would have been better not to treat them.
And then there is baby Charlotte Wyatt, who was born at 28 weeks, with severe, brain, lung, and kidney damage. I followed her story in the press, where the doctors asked permission to withdraw life saving treatment, and the parents fought for the doctors to do everything they could for her. Heartbreaking!
So despite the fact, that doctors can use a huge amount of technology to help patients, the question I am asking is: Should they?. An incredibly tough ethical question, I feel completely unable to answer.

About 15(?), 20(?) years ago, there was a program on what sort of life children born below 28 weeks had. It was grim viewing. And I could fully understand the parents pleading with doctors to do something to save their precious bubba. And I could understand medical personnel, responding to those pleas. After all they wouldnt be in medicine, if they didnt want to help people. But.......
At that time, children who were born below28 weeks, were mostly left with some terrible disabilities. It showed what happened, *after* the children left hospital. The parents cared for those children 24 hours a day, and the severity of the problems, meant that many of the children would need care for the rest of their lives.
I went to an evening classes with a nurse, who had some children in her care, who were born at below 28 weeks. She said the program was an accurate portrayal of what life was like, for the parents and those children. I found it fascinating, but deeply disturbing viewing.
I am discussing abortion here, not whether very premature babies should be resuscitated. But in light of the fact that in Denmark, it is advised that doctors only resuscitate babies born at 26 weeks or above, then it seems that the 24 week abortion limit makes some kind of sense.

I read a little bit of the above report, and it said that, despite improvement in survival rates for babies born at 24 weeks or over, (which are still not good) the survival rates for children born under 24 weeks remains stubbornly poor. (paragraph 32).
So, IMO, when the survival rates for children born at 23 weeks or below improve, then we should lower the abortion limit to 22 weeks, but, IMO, we shouldnt lower it just yet. Give it a few years....
To me, reducing the abortion limit, is another feel good factor law. Feel good factor laws are laws that make everyone feel they are doing something , ie feel good, without addressing the underlying problem, and they may make things worse for the people that the law is aimed at. For instance, Megans/Sarahs law, actually increases the probability of a child being attacked by a paedophile.
There is now a huge amount of data, on the negative effects of Megans/Sarahs law, but The News of The World has run a relentless campaign, and Sarahs law now effectively exists in the UK. I have included some links on Megans/Sarahs law below, including a 50 page report written by the NSPCC, but I guess what would that organisation know about protecting children?
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/publications/Downloads/meganslaw2_wdf48102.pdf
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-tofte/sex-offender-laws-may-do-_b_68261.html

I want to see laws/rules/ government advice based on evidence published in peer reviewed scientific journals, *NOT* News of the World Headlines. I guess, I am something of a dreamer.
We can look at the recent advice, that women should not drink in pregnancy. It was *not* based on new evidence, but given out by someone who felt the advice was good. And the effect was that pregnant women, who had ½ a glass of champagne to toast the bride and groom, ended up, being harangued.
The infertility laws are mostly, feel good factor laws, that, IMO, make things worse for the infertile. Most members of the Great British Public, probably feel that the HFEA is doing a great job. They want someone in control, but I have argued, on this and other boards, that things have got worse for the infertile, since the HFEA Act 1990 was passed.
IMO, eSET is another feel good factor thing. Yes it does benefit the unborn child, but what about everyone else, including the woman who will carry that child? eSET seems to have both positive and negative effects for the woman who may or may not carry the child, and for everyone else (dad, other children, other relatives, medical staff, etc.), eSET, IMO, appears to have mainly negative consequences. So, for me, the decision as whether to go for eSET or DET is such a complex issue, with so many personal factors that must be taken into account, that I feel that only the woman/couple undergoing treatment, are really in a position to make that decision. But the Great British Public who seem to go for feel good factor rules, and protection of the unborn child at all costs, may encourage the HFEA to introduce eSET.
I expect that when women find themselves unexpectedly pregnant, many think long and hard, about what to do. The poster on soc.women, I mentioned in my previous post, showed that actually many women chose to keep the baby. But for some women they feel that the only option is to have a termination. But the negative image that is portrayed by the press, of women who repeatedly use, abortion as a means of contraception, is true of only a tiny minority of women who go for abortion. 
These negative images, reinforce the idea that women are irresponsible, and unable to make decisions for ourselves. It is best that someone else do it for us, either through law, or through organisations like the HFEA. The idea the media presents, is that, after all women are children, who have to be told what is best for them.
IMO, women/couples, should be ones the making the decision, about whether to have an abortion, whether to transfer one or more embryos, whether they want to do anonymous or completely open donation, whether to tell their child about donor conception, and so on. Not some government organisation, where I keep getting the feeling, that, many of the personal are making decisions, that have more to do with what would benefit their careers; rather than what is best for the people, who have to live with that decision. Women/couples are adults capable of making their own decisions, and we should let them, do just that.
Next year the evidence may show that reducing the time limit for abortions is the right decision, and then I will agree, that the law should be changed. But, when I look at the laws/rules/government advice, that are, IMO, not based on scientific evidence, but introduced, because it makes people feel good; time and time again, I see pain, suffering and misery, caused by those rules.
Unfortunately reducing the time limit will probably happen, as no doubt some newspaper of other, will run a campaign to make it happen. Sad!

Lorna

/links


----------



## angel1888

I think what we must remember is that those women who have so called later abortions do tend to do so because of some terrible medical diagnosis and I do think we need to clearly differentiate that.

My oldest and dearest friend had one of these so-called late abortions at 22 weeks because her much wanted and loved son was dying.  It was highly likely he would have died before term, but had he lived he would have died in a great deal of pain shortly after birth.  The only reason I am saying this is that she gets extremely upset when people (mainly doctors) talk about her "abortion".  As far as she is concerned it gives the impression that she had some kind of choice - as far as she is concerned she didn't.

A xx


----------



## Hugs

Hi all,

I hope you don't mid me adding to this and don't want to offend anyone.

I was pregnant with twins a boy and girl, I went into labour and had my son at 20+3 my DH who saw him said he was a perfectly formed little boy. fingers, toes and everything then i went on to have his sister a 24 weeks and she was/is also perfect and is now 63 days old today and is a fighter. She is still in ITU but she is a perfect baby girl.

I think everyone has there own opinion on abortion but 24 week is just awful cause its a perfect, perfect formed baby. I can understand why ladies would terminate a pregnancy due to medical reason but for someone to abort a baby at 20/24 weeks just because they dont want the baby i think is just awful. 

Hope i have not offended anyone but just want to tell you my story.


Hugs
xx


----------

