# Christian/ Muslim Marriage and Donor Egg is out or is it?



## redcajun

Hello, I have found myself hoping across board and creating threads until I am completely exhausted but with one final stoke of the key board, I need you alls help.  My husband is Muslim and said it is against his religon to use Donor eggs.  Please if there are any Muslims on here that know this to be true or false are advise us on who we can talk to regarding this subject I would greatly appreciate it.  This has become a major issue in my marriage to where it could mean the end of it.  So please take the time and answer if you have any information you can share.


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## Ms Minerva

Hi redcajun, I did a little internet search for you and came up with this article. I hope that it helps.

http://www.aaanet.org/press/an/0502Inhorn.htm

Jules xxx

/links


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## kooks1

Hi redcajun, i am sorry to hear your situation   i dont really know much to help you, but i wanted to say i used to know a muslim girl who was ttc and needed donor sperm, her husbands brother (also muslim) donated his for them and they went on to have a child. i am not saying it is not against their religion - they may not be strict - but i know they did do it so maybe its possible. could it be more that your husband is scared etc?   i know my dh would have struggled if we had to use donor sperm - think he felt it was a knock to his 'manhood'   

sorry i cant help more, hope it works out for you   good luck


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## Guest

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547832

please see link attached that will answer your question. In Islam doner eggs/sperm are a NO NO...I

IVF is permissible in Islam only on condition that both sperm and egg involved in the process originate from a man and a woman who are married to each other. To introduce an egg or sperm from a third person to the equation is akin to sharing the marriage bed with someone else. It is therefore considered no different from zina (adultery) in Islam. A child born through such a procedure is born of zina in Islam.

Since it is undoubtedly reprehensible and utterly sinful, no Muslim should ever entertain such a possibility for conceiving a child. A Muslim should accept what Allah has chosen for him or her. To accept Allah as a Sovereign Lord and Creator means to believe in His will and ultimate wisdom. Allah says: (To Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He creates whatever He wills. He grants daughters to whom He wills, and sons to whom He wills; or He gives both sons and daughters to whom He wills and makes barren whom He wills. Indeed He is Knowing, Able) (Ash-Shura 42: 49-50).

So continue to pray to Allah to grant you offspring while resorting to all available treatments you can possibly afford. If it is Allah's will, He will certainly grant your prayer; if on the other hand, should He not choose to do so, simply accept the will of the All-Wise, and All-Knowing.

May Allah make us all contented with His decree, and grant us all the true joy of submitting to His inscrutable will. Ameen

I hope that helps.


/links


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## daisyg

Hi,

With reference to the first link - Redcajun please read the section on the difference between the fatwas for Sunni vs Shi'ite muslims.  You will see that egg donation has been allowed for many in Iran and Lebanon.  The Sunni position appears to be stricter.

I would read through this link and discuss with your DH just to show that there appears to be some leeway regarding third part donation.  It does not appear to be quite as draconian or indeed black and white as barbiedoll quotes.

Barbiedoll - perhaps you should read the link and see what you think about this as well?

I wish you the very best of luck.

Daisy
x


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## Guest

Daisy-it is not draconian..it is the islamic point of view...

rgds


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## daisyg

Barbiedoll,

Yes, but the Islamic point of view in this matter in my opinion IS draconian.  But I do apologise if you felt this was inappropriate at all - not my intention in any way.

I was interested in your view of the article linked above - I found it interesting and also confusing but wondered whether it may help Redcajun at all with any possible exceptions?

Thanks for your response,

Best,

Daisy
x


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## Guest

its ok daisy...


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies, Thanks to all of you for your response. I have researched the subject myself and find it to be confusing and contridictive as well. For the most part I am confused about two position and maybe Babydoll can answer this:

1. The prophet Mohammad could not have spoke on this subject as the technology was not availabe doing those time and the Fatwa are use as guidance that comes from man's interputation of the Quran. I did look into the two different groups of Isalm the Sunni and the Shi'ite and they different; so please explain this if you can.

2. If God does not want a women to bear a child if she is not bear them on her own then as you stated Babydoll " Since it is undoubtedly reprehensible and utterly sinful, no Muslim should ever entertain such a possibility for conceiving a child. A Muslim should accept what Allah has chosen for him or her. To accept Allah as a Sovereign Lord and Creator means to believe in His will and ultimate wisdom. Allah says: (To Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He creates whatever He wills. He grants daughters to whom He wills, and sons to whom He wills; or He gives both sons and daughters to whom He wills and makes barren whom He wills. Indeed He is Knowing, Able) (Ash-Shura 42: 49-50)." If this statement is true, than IVF should also not be allowed.

3. A Muslim man can take up to 4 wives, one of the conditions is that if his wife can not bear children then he can go and marry another. This seems to be cruel and unjust as the man must treat each wive equal and love them the same; but how can this be humanlly possible when of course the man will give more care to the women he had the child by. In terms of Donor Eggs, it is my understanding that this would be consider adultery but isn't having more than one wife and unable to love them the same adultry and to chose a wife while you have a wife is also a form of adultery as you lust for a second wife while you were married.

Please Babydoll, don't take this as an attack, I geniuely am confused and consern as I know that God has the ability to make anything possible but he also allows for our participation as if the water is across the street, God put it there but we have to walk across the street to get it. I find that rules on Religion are normally enforced by man on what they think God meant.

I hope this has not offended anyone, but knowledge is the success of salvation.

Red


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## madison

Hello,

      I am going to sound really ignorant now & this is not to offend...

      When all of the above quotes were put into place.. IVF was not around & I would have thought that if it were
      then it would also be put in that IVF would not have been allowed anyway ?? My sister is married to a muslim &
      my sister can not get pregnant & he would not even consider IVF for religious reasons. As its medical intervention,
      not gods.


      BUT... I also thought he was not supposed to have sex before marrriage.. But he did that ??

      How can he have done one thing but not the other 

      I will ask him next time I see him . I hope that you and your husband can sort this out Red & I am very sorry that
      you are going thru this   

            Katy. xxxxxxxxx


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## redcajun

Madison,

I too agree, my Muslim husband; drinks Alcohol, and does quite a lot that is Haram but he decided to take a stand this time.  Sometimes you have just got to ask yourself; What gives...I respect Islam as I do all religions and if this is his belief then we are at a crossroad because my stans is that no second wife or there will be no me in the stupid triangle...For now he says he is not ever going to consider second wife but forever is a long time.

I pray that the IVF that is not Haram by some mans choice will allow us to have a baby, if not then I will have to relish in the fact that God gave me 3 wonderful children from my past marriage and that I must be being punished and will not have a baby for my beloved husband.

Red


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## madison

Oh sweetheart,

          You are not being punished    It is horrible that you are so sad & I hope that
          you do get your positive result this time, but if you don't, its not because you are being punished
          for anything. If that were the case then alot of women on here are being punished & I am SURE
          that is not the case.

          Life is full of challenges & you are facing on of them now.. I had 4 icsi's to give James a baby, He had
          no children & I had already from a previous marriage. He desperately wanted a baby but if it didn't happen 
          then he still would have loved me.

          I think if your husband drinks etc... Then maybe not wanting DE is not as much a religious thing & maybe
          he is using that as an excuse because he just does not want to do it.. I would have wanted to if our 4th
          hadn't worked as that was going to be our last but James said NO.

            I see you are going thru treatment now.. Please try not to be so sad & try to think happy things etc as 
            that is much better for your growing follies etc... think of all the positive good things in your life that
            make you feel lucky to be alive etc.. Thats what I always do when I am feeling down.

            Good luck with the rest of your treatment   

              Katy. xxxxxxxxxxx


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## Miranda7

Hello!

Two thoughts occur to me, Red. The first, as you've thought yourself, that he is just queasy about using a donor.

But the second is that perhaps he can drink alcohol knowing it's only his faith he is jeopardising - if it came to having a son or daughter born outside those constraints that would involve him affecting another person - a son or daughter he is responsible for, and maybe that doesn't sit so well.

Ie, you can take risks for yourself, but not for another human being.

Personally, I think Muslim thinking on this issue could be reconsidered - like all religions occasionally have a rethink of important issues. I'm willing to bet that in common with the rest of the world, historically, before IVF, a woman would find some way to bear a child, if no child was produced from the marriage. This doesn't make it right, but is just an example of how powerful the need is to have a child.

Have you converted, Red?

You're not being punished - there's a huge element of the random in life, whatever your religion - you aren't being picked out.

I'm actually confused as to why donor eggs or sperm is illegal in Muslim countries - I had tx in Turkey, where this is the case. Because, if this were a hard and fast rule according to scripture, Christians would not be able to use donors either - adultery being one of the deadly sins. It seems that Christians have somehow managed to separate the sexual act of love from the scientific joining of the sperm and egg.
As I say, perhaps one day this issue will be reconsidered in the light of modern thinking on the old scriptures.

In the meantime, I hope your tx is successful and you won't have to consider this. We were forced to think of using DH's brother as a donor when it appeared at first glance there was no sperm there. But we managed it after PESA in Turkey. Try not to confront these huge issues till you have to, Red - life's too short to worry about things that haven't happened yet.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## redcajun

Miranda7, Great advice and congrats on your husbands sperm.  To answer your question"Have you converted, Red?"  No I have not and have no plans to do so.  We are both confortable with the fact that we are of separate face but must repect the others religion.

Red


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## Miranda7

That's great - with such rational people you two must be able to find a way through this then... if it comes to it.

But it's likely it won't! Have faith there will be swimmers there.

xx

Whoops! Just reading back - I meant eggs!


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## icky

Hi

My husband is Muslim and we have talked about this many a time.  we have gone through ICSI once and about to start another cycle.  My husband was looking on the internet about Islam and IVF and also found that IVF is acceptable but donor eggs/sperm is not.  We are lucky that we don't need either, My hubby wouldn't enertain this but I think that is more personal choice rather that religious.  He too read that using donor eggs/sperm is likened to adultery. 
Hope you find the answers you are looking for

Icky

xxx


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## Iman

Hi Ladies

I would just like to say that Barbiedoll's advice is 100% correct in line with Islam. Donor sperm or eggs are not allowed I'm afriad and it is considered forbidden ( haram) and a sin. As with anything in Islam ( drinking, sex before marriage etc) it all comes down to the individual 's personal choice and free will whether to indulge in something they know is a sin in their religion or to abstain. Of course if an individual does not know something is a sin, then there is no blame on them

In answer to the question re how come IVF is allowed then? IVF is allowed because whether it works or not is down to the Will of Allah. IVF ( as we unfortunatly know) does not always work - it is not 100% foolproof or successful - it comes down to the Will of God still. So this is why IVF ( in short ) is allowed. It is still also within the boundaries of marriage and conceiving a child as set by Islam for Muslims ( involving only the husband and wife.) 

To the poster who suggested they might ask their sister's husband why he wont use donor/IVF but he had sex before marriage - I STRONGLY suggest you don't ask him ! It would be a highly disrespectful and personal question IMO. Of course how well you know him and what the topic of conversation is and how forthcoming he is on his own all comes into it. But I would not ask him at all as I suspect he would be quite offended , as might your sister. And in my opinion I dont think any person 'of faith' be they Muslim or any other faith would appreciate being asked that - its pretty personal. 

Anyway that last bit is just my personal opinion. The rest is Islamic opinion. Hope that doesnt offend or upset anyone and its answered some questions God willing.

Peace.

xxx


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## Carbonel

Hi All, now this is a very sensitive subject, we are talking about the terrible hurt of being ttc for a long period and also peoples personally held religious beliefs. What does concern me a little is that the position of Islam is being seen as being very different from that of christianity. To be honest it could be seen as being more accepting of IVF than the Catholic Church and almost identical too the mainstream protestant churches on donor eggs and sperm ( they do not accept it)
My personal belief as a christian is that Jesus said nought about it but he did say let he who is without sin cast the first stone. So I personally would pray for individual guidance.
As a Christian i would have to say Islam is no more draconian on this matter than many Christian churches and that the phrasing is a bit unfortunate.
Hope I have caused no offence.


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## daisyg

This is a very interesting discussion.  However, I wondered why no one has so far commented on the thread contained in the first response which mentions differences in the Sunni vs Shi'ite approach to third party donation, specifically mentioning Iran and Lebanon?  Does anyone have any information or views about this?   It may be of help to Redcajun who posted the original question...

Carbonel - which phrasing are you referring to and why is it unfortunate?  

Best wishes,

Daisy
x


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## Iman

Hey Daisy

The difference between the Sunni and Shia opinions - it will come down to whether Redcajun's husband is Sunni Muslim or Shia Muslim and therefore this will help them with which Islamic ruling is applicable to them/him. Redcajun maybe you can tell us? 

There are many differences in opinion on many topics in Islam between Sunni and Shia. Re the donor eggs though - in the information about Shia opinion, it mentioned Temporary Marriage. Shia Muslims ( not all, some) practice this and it is considered allowed in Shia Islam I believe - and as you can see this formed the basis for the donor eggs being allowed. Sunni Islam is 100% against temporary marriage, so of course this aspect of it being basis for the allowance of the donor eggs, does not apply.

Hope that helps.

Iman xx


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## Miranda7

Does that apply for donor sperm as well? Because it sounds as if a temporary second marriage for the woman isn't allowed?


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## daisyg

Hi Iman,

Thank you very much for that really clear reply and info.  Hope Redcajun sees it...

Best to all,

Daisy
x


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## Iman

Hey miranda

I'm not Shia so I cant comment on the intricacies of Shia rulings. But I would think that donor sperm is not allowed. Second marriage ( temporary or otherwise) is not allowed for women in Shia Islam I believe. Sunni Islam does not allow second marriage for women either, or temporary marriage for either party and donor sperm and eggs are not allowed ( see the previous posts.)

Re the link - it mentioned practice in Iran. Iran is a predominantly Shia country so this would explain why the practice of donor eggs is seen a lot there.

IVF IS allowed in Shia and Sunni Islam and adoption/fostering is also another avenue that is highly encouraged for all Muslims ( whether they are TTC or already have kids or anyone.)

Whatever Allah wills is whatever Allah wills. Sometimes there are things we do not like, but he has commanded them for us and there is benefit for us in them ( but perhaps we cannot see it at the time) . Sometimes there are things we do like, but he has forbidden and there is harm involved in them for us ( that we may understand later.) 

Whatever it should be remembered that Allah has a way of surprising us when we least expect it and He is the Best of Planners. He is also The Most Generous, The Most Merciful and the Most Compassionate. He is the Giver of Life ( these are all some of His names/characteristics) .The power of prayer ( du'a/ supplications) can work wonders also. 

Iman xx


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## Dibley

Hi carbonel,

In response to your post...

_To be honest it could be seen as being more accepting of IVF than the Catholic Church and almost identical too the mainstream protestant churches on donor eggs and sperm ( they do not accept it)_

Yes you are correct, the Roman Catholic Church has set rules against IVF. 
I'm not too sure who you mean when you say _'mainstream Protestant' _ ?
If you mean the Church of England, then I can say that this is not correct as no definitive statement has been made to date - there are as many views as there are ministers! 
This is also true for Methodists and URC. It is something that is still very much an ongoing debate at present 
However, there are some very fundementalist Christian groups who don't support IVF in any shape or form (as there are individuals in the churches too).

Redcajun - 
There is alot on here for you to think and  about - I  you will find peace in whatever you decide.

God bless,

Dibley x


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## Carbonel

Hi Dibley, 
I deliberately didn't specify which branches of protestant church as I felt that my main point was that Islam was not alone at one end of the spectrum in it's views. Infact as you say Islam is fairly liberal compared to some. Perhaps you might be able to clarify the official line some of the 'mainstream' protestant churches take on donor eggs and sperm and surrogacy.
I am pretty sure that some don't condone it in their official line as they view it as a child being created out of the sanctity of marriage  but recognise you might know better.( didn't particularly mean Anglican as wouldn't know where to start with High, Liberal,Evangelical etc, it is indeed a broad church encompassing many viewpoints)
I am myself am a Christian and agree that the beliefs of individuals within the church are very broad ( in my belief a good thing), I think this is why prayer and a personal dialogue with God will bring the answer that is right for the individual. My own beliefs are that both donor eggs, and sperm and surrogacy are fine as long as embryos are treated with respect. I am however aware that other christians will think otherwise and this does not mean their views are extreme. I suppose this is what I meant most by many ' mainstream' protestants.
Redcajun I hope and pray this works out for you,
God Bless


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## KittenPaws

Hi All,

hope this finds you all well. 

Just wanted to say that the information provided by Iman is from what i know to be of the correct opinion. 

If i could make a suggestion Red, maybe you and your husband could visit an Imam (muslim priest) in your home town area. I am sure that he will be able to help you with any questions you may have regarding this. it is such a sensitive matter and must be approached with care for both of you. I do wish you well and hope that you can find happiness with this.  

KP


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## Dibley

Hi carbonel,

I don't want to appear to be hijacking Red's post because the responses ought to be supportive of her question.
However, I felt I needed to respond because you cannot make a sweeping statement with regards to the 'Protestant Churches' without supportive evidence. Which is why in my previous post I wrote:

_I'm not too sure who you mean when you say 'mainstream Protestant' ?
If you mean the Church of England, then I can say that this is not correct as *no definitive statement* has been made to date - there are as many views as there are ministers! This is also true for Methodists and URC. It is something that is still very much an ongoing debate at present _

ie: There is NO official line up to now.

However, all the churches are keeping a close eye on the developments of the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Bill.

Some of the more fundementalist churches will be totally opposed to IVF, but they can hardly be described as 'mainstream'.

Also when you quote me saying _'Infact as you say Islam is fairly liberal compared to some'_ - I *DID NOT * say this this in my post.
The _italics_ in my last post were your words, not mine.

I hope you don't mind me correcting you but I felt it is important to be very clear about what is being said and by whom 

If you have any more questions then don't hesitate to send me a pm - as I say don't want to move the focus away from answering Reds original post 

Red - I've lit a candle for you hun  I think Kittenpaws advice of speaking to your local Imam is an excellent idea! 

Love Dibley x


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## KittenPaws

Thank you dibley.

My reason for saying so is rightly proven below. This subject is very sensitive and personal. Peoples feelings are involved. So it is best discussed with someone who has factual islamic knowledge and also has a basis of evidence.

KP


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## Dibley

Kittenpaws,

Couldn't agree with you more  

Dibley x


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## Carbonel

Hi Dibley, 
thanks for the clarification on the Official line of the larger protestant churches. I'm sorry if you feel I misrepresented your words, I genuinely thought that when you agreed with me that the Catholic Church has rules against IVF in general that this was indeed a less liberal stance than Islam which allows for IVF but this was indeed my opinion and my words. I certainly at no stage have asserted that the mainstream protestant churches are anti IVF as these fundemental sects you mention might be.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that Red is in a Christian/ Islamic union and she and her partner need to keep talking to each other and as kittenpaws rightly suggests her partners Imam to find a way forward for him that is compatible with his personally held beliefs. 
I also felt that Islam was in danger of being portrayed as being extreme on these matters when infact many Christians have the same beliefs and some IMHO have more conservative beliefs.


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## Dibley

Carbonel, 

Appology accepted hun 

I think the problem we face sometimes is that the flat nature of textual chat on message boards means that our words can sometimes come across in a way that they were not intended to. One of the reasons we have the emoticons (smilies) which help to add the emotional aspect to our responses 

I don't think that the Islamic faith is being portrayed as extreme - I think through the discussions here we have found that similar to the Christian faith, there are both conservative & liberal views on the subject of IVF. For factual, 'official lines', then yes, the best person to speak to are our official Religious leaders - but hey we may not like their responses but then that is another story 

God bless, Dibley x


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## Carbonel

I think earlier on in the thread there was a danger that it might be. What you were saying about there being conservative and liberal ( and here I hope I'm not Misinterpreting you ) opinion within our own churches was exactly the agreement I was looking for on the issue.
I'm not a great user of the emoticons but have made pains in a lot of my posts my desire not to give offense.
I think these issues can be really difficult but that discussion is the way forward. Peace be with you


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## KittenPaws

Its just such a difficult topic and i just hope that in all this kerfuffle we have managed to help Red a little.


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## madison

I am not wanting to go off the subject but I also dont want to send this as a PM as if it offends then I want what I said to
be seen so others can see its not nasty as not a personal thing as I dont want to get into trouble with Moderators etc.

This was said in response to something I put 

To the person  who suggested they might ask their sister's husband why he wont use donor/IVF but he had sex before marriage - I STRONGLY suggest you don't ask him ! It would be a highly disrespectful and personal question IMO. Of course how well you know him and what the topic of conversation is and how forthcoming he is on his own all comes into it. But I would not ask him at all as I suspect he would be quite offended , as might your sister. And in my opinion I dont think any person 'of faith' be they Muslim or any other faith would appreciate being asked that - its pretty personal.



I am sorry but if I dont ask then I wont know & if  my sisters husband feels it is ok to have sex before marriage but
not to have IVF/DE etc then I dont see why I shouldnt ask him why... I would not mind if someone asked me why I do one thing 
and not another & unless people ask then how are they supposed to learn.. as for offending him then that would be his 
problem not mine if he finds it offensive because he is following one rule of his religion & not another then maybe he should ask himself a few questions !!  He does not have to answer me if he does not want to but I have the right to ask him.
  I have freedom of speech & I like my sisters husband very much but it would be his problem not mine if he found such a question offensive.

  RED... someone on here said you & your husband could go to see a muslim priest & see what he says, I think that is very good
  advice & as most of us have said... hopefully it wont come to that anyway & you will have a successful cycle this time  

    With love Katy. xxxxxxx
  name for this person) 


  Katy. xxxx


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## Iman

Dear Katy,

You are right you have a right to ask him. Sorry if my post offended you - I was merely trying to point out to be tentative. It was only my opinion as I said several times. But yes you won't know unless you ask and I agree that if he is picking and choosing his religion to suit him then he should ask himself some questions!

BTW if you had sent me that as a PM i wouldn't have minded or been offended and if anyone did send me a reply to something that did offend me I would not refer to it later on the board as nasty/tell others about it and I probably wouldnt speak to the Moderators either ( unless we were talking real offence!)

Anyway I agree with Kittenpaws advice to go see an Imam and ask them for some advice.

Take care,

Iman xx


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies:

There has been much conversation since I last responded.  I would like to say something and I hope that it will not offend neither Christian nor Muslim.  

I have come to the conclusion I hope to think with God's guidance and much reading.  Both religions Christian and Islam pre-dates IVF, IUI, IVF with DE etc.  When the the Quran talks about God give to him daughters and son whom he wishes and make Barren who he will is fact and if IVF works either way than it is God's will because some people can have IVF a million times and if God does not want it to be successful then it will not.  Also after the Prophet Mohammad "Peace be upon him" died the Quran was written to capture the words that had been given to the Prophet by Gabriel the Archangel.  Now Muslim say that it is Zina or Harem -Adultery to use donor eggs but what I say is that a sexual act must be fullfilled or lust for a women outside of your marriage must happen before adultery can occur.
THERE IS NO GOVERNING BODY FOR ISLAM AFTER THE PROPHET MOHAMMAD DIED"PEACE BE UPON HIM' AFTER HIS DEATH AND THE FATWA ARE MAN INTERPUTATIONS OF THE QURAN.  As I am told the prophet was the last prophet sent by God therefore there is no one that can speak for him.

To the questions asked my husband is Sunni.. He is against DE and I have to come to terms with this.  I do agree that the mass marketing of Donor Eggs is somewhat out of control and the Government must step in to monitor the process or brother and sister could marry and people could explort a good cause.  I believe in the US that there is a register for parents to check to see if there children have other sibiling to lower the rate of one marrying his own sibling.

We all hide behind religion to give us power on our belief, but as I spoke to God last night it became clear to me that God sent to great messengers, Jesus Christ and Mohammad(PBOH) and after they died we as men started our own interpretations on what we thought means or meant.

Thank you all for the support, please if I have offended anyone I apoligie in advance as this is not my intent.


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## madison

Red,

      I totally agree with your post 100%.

      Good luck with everything, James wouldnt use DE but not for religious reasons just his own
      I would respect that too as both need to be comfortable with it.

      Hope the rest of your treatment goes well

      Iman... I have sent you a PM.


      LOVE katy. xxxxx


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## Iman

Hey red

Sounds like you have a good relationship with your husband. I hope and pray it wont come down to DE for you anyway and that God blesses you both with a child soon.

Religion is such a difficult subject to discuss without people getting upset or misunderstanding - I think its cos of all the emotion and passion involved!

Katy - I got your PM and replied - but my reply is not showing in my Outbox. did you get it? about 10 mins ago.

xxx


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## Miranda7

You have to click the box to save your replies in your outbox, Iman!

It's frustrating when you let a reply into the ether - never any way to review it after unless you tick the box!

xx


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## Iman

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

Lol ,thanks for the tip Miranda - didn't know that!


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## Wicklow

I am a christian and the only way I would have had children was with donor sperm and thats what we did and have 2 gorgeous little boys who werent made by another man who wasnt my husband but made through our love for each other.

When we found out that were problems I could have run a mile and found another man who could give me children but I love my husband so much and I thank God that he has enabled us to have children. Our church were fantastic and like someone said, nothing is written about it. Every sin is judged the same (if thats what you think we have done). We never slept around or had sex before marriage we made children through our love and I cant see a thing wrong with that. Maybe some of you would think differently if you were in that situation.

Hope I havent offended anyone but i felt a little sad reading some of these posts
Ruth


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## KittenPaws

Hi Ruth, 

Firstly congrats on those two beautiful little boys. I cant speak for others but i am muslim and although DE/DS would not be for me i would never judge someone else for doing it. We are all of different backgrounds/religious beliefs and i suppose thats why this topic can be so sensitive. 

I wish you all the best and everyone else on FF  

Kitten


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies,

I am so proud of us for not taking this meaningful discussion to a negative place.  I would like to thank all of you for your comments.  Tommorow is the big day for me to find out if the fertility injections have worked, my first scan and blood test.  Please ladies pray for me and if all goes well with the scan and blood test, I will be on my way to EC which I will beg for you all to pray  for me again and then to the two wait where I will need your support again.

Congrats on the twin boys   

I will post again when I get the results,
Red


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## KittenPaws

Oh red, bless you hun. i hope and   this works for you. we will all be thinking of you   

To be honest no matter what differences we have, as i said once before. Different people, different backgrounds, different journeys same goal.


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## Miranda7

Good luck Red! You deserve this - hope it turns out good for you.

xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Damelottie

Good luck Red


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies,

I am trying to update all my threads because when other don't update they leave us worried and in the dark.  Today my 7day scan only showed 4 follicules and only 2 mature size 16 and 17.  E21307, the doctor suggested not to cancel the cycle and to move forward because of my age and the fact that he says it only takes 1.  Now I have to continue for 2 more days on the Lupron and F-Gong. and then an HCG shot on the 13th and 14th EC.  Wish me luck guys...Red


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## Miranda7

I only had four eggs Red!


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## Dibley

Lots of   and   thoughts coming your way hun!

It does only take one - and you've got two reasonable sized follicles! And who knows maybe the smaller ones may catch up too 

God bless,

Dibley x


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## KittenPaws

lots of   for you. As they say you only need one xoxo


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## Iman

thinking of you Red


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## Carbonel

All the best Red


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## redcajun

Thank you guys for all the kind words and encouragement.  I know we always say we will pray for someone and then we get busy throughout our day and forget to.  If you can pray for me on EC day and success on the fertilization in implantation I would be very gratful and please ask others to as well.  Thank you and I will keep you posted.


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## KittenPaws

Hi red, i thought of this today and in future if you have any questions such as this you could contact these people at the Islamic Sharia org.

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/index.php

KP xoxo 

/links


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies:

Do not want to keep ou in the dark.  I had ET on April14th and am schedule for ET tommorow.  I went for IVF with own eggs as this is prehaps the only way I will ever have a baby.  DH is scared and me too as we only had two follicles on a short protocol.  We did get two great mature eggs and they both fertilize after tommorow it will be doen to the two week wait.

Red


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## KittenPaws

Aww Red i really hope this works for you and your DH. Just know that you have all the support in the world from us ladies.

God Bless


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## cleg

i dont normally post on here but i have been following this thread + would like to wish Red + DH all the best   will be thinking of you + rooting for you  

xxx


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## redcajun

Hello Ladies:

I just wanted to give you all an update on my TWW.  Nothing has been going on.  After the egg tranfer I was bloated beyond mentions.  But then my stomach went down and the gas (TMI) was released.  This morning I was feeling great but then I started getting PMS symptoms, I tried to ignore them but I know them all so well.  My upper back is killing me and I start the usual gray spotting I do a week before AF.  I am still trying to be strong and hold out but it really seams that I am losing the race.

Will keep you all posted when I can.

Red


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## Miranda7

Praying that the AF pains are just your embryo settling in.   

xx


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## redcajun

Thanks so much for your response and prays...


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## Carbonel

Thinking of you Red and keeping you in my prayers


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## redcajun

Thank you Carbonel, I need as many as I can get


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## jadeline

Hello everyone:

I took sometime and read this thread completely. I am a Muslim now, use to be a Christian (protestant) with catholic grandparents and a protestant preacher for a father. My belief is that anyone can do what they want, regardless if is written in the holy books that this is forbidden or it isn't. That is what is called free will. 

Redcajun- Your husband needs to really talk to someone in a mosque or maybe someone he can really trust to try to get some light on this subject. 

We are discussing a subject and all opinions are to be read and respected without attacking the person posting for having a different believe. 

Some people would buy kids to have kids. Some other people would sleep around to have kids. Some others would steal a kid to have a kid. And those are people of different religions and different divisions inside the religions. 

I asked my Sunni husband last night, If i cannot conceive on this trial, can  my sister carry the baby instead of me( She has 3 natural babies) his reply was a NO. That baby would be fed out of my sister blood and even the genes are ours, the baby is not conceived inside what is a normal pregnancy (meaning my baby feeding out of my blood and me carrying him or her for the whole term). IVF is no problem for us since is his swimmers along with my eggs and I will be the one Carrying our baby or babies. 

For those of you that did whatever it took to get pregnant, no one is here attacking you or even saying that what you did is wrong (we respect other people's believes). If i want to throw myself from the window and kill myself even when i know is a sin, is my decision thanks to the free will that the Almighty have given me. 

Everyone is responsable for his or her actions and the consequences will be showing the day of the judgement.

Salaam sisters


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## SisterC

redcajun said:


> Hello, I have found myself hoping across board and creating threads until I am completely exhausted but with one final stoke of the key board, I need you alls help. My husband is Muslim and said it is against his religon to use Donor eggs. Please if there are any Muslims on here that know this to be true or false are advise us on who we can talk to regarding this subject I would greatly appreciate it. This has become a major issue in my marriage to where it could mean the end of it. So please take the time and answer if you have any information you can share.


Hi there - I just came across your post and wondered what happened and if you worked things out. I am muslim and donor eggs or sperm are not permitted by Shariah, so those options are not open to me. IVF is halal (permissible) with my dh's sperm BUT my mother had breast cancer so they won't give me IVF at all.

I hope your marriage survived and that things went OK for you.
Best wishes
SisterC


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## emalia

hello ladies, i have an 'situation' i would like your 'muslim' opinion on.
i am really condensing the circumstances...when married to my husband ( he was rasied muslim but not really practicing and then 3-4 years ago took up the faith again) i was looking into using donor eggs and my ex had sperm frozen for use at the clinic. anyway, we got divorced and 4 years after freezing i decided to continue with DEIVF, my ex agreed that i could use his sperm and then he pulled out 2 weeks before ET, i then decided to use donor sperm and because of time constraints to find a donor and the stress factor  my ex agreed to allow me to continue using his sperm, at this point i found out from him that there were issues concerning donor ivf in his religion, but we agreed that if successful the child would be raised without a religion and when an adult could choose their religious path themselves. 
I am 5 months pregnant, he hasn't told his parents and i think the donor issue is playing on his mind, along with the fact we are not married ( we are friends but i will never marry him again) and i would like to try & make it easy for him, by suggesting that he tell his parents that i proceeded with his sperm without his consent & leave him off the birth cert, whether he says it's donor eggs or not is up to him.
How might these children be viewed in muslim society and what would be the religious perspective on how he has 'behaved' if the truth were know?
thankyou for your time
EM


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## DreamTeam

Emalia. Firstly congratulations on the twins! Wow, you must be so excited! 

I think the most important thing to remember about Islam is that the sins of a person remain with a person. As such there would be no transference of sins.

In terms of your specifics, I think what comes across (correct me if I’m wrong) is that you had reached the stage of wanting/trying to use donor sperm and as such your ex stepped in because you were unable to find one. I guess I’m trying to say that you need to establish how you view him, as a father or as a donor?

Regarding your ex, Islam is quite clear that parents have obligations towards their children. He would have obligations towards your children.

As for muslim society, muslims are from so many different cultural backgrounds and races that it is hard to say what anyone would say. If anything any opinions people might have would be directed at the parents. All children are born innocent. 

I hope that helps somewhat and I hope that I haven't offended you in the process!

Many more congratulations and hoping you have a happy and healthy pregnancy

love

Snowbelle


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## emalia

hi snowball, thanks for your reply, not offended at all!
yes he did step in techinically as a donor however, i would like 'my' children to get to know him and give him every access to develop a relationship with them as such, and he is getting excited about them now. but i know i will never again want to us to be a couple in the traditional sense.
em x


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## sharonannzaki

Hi Red, hope everything's going well with you.  You raise some good points.  I'm in similar position - my Sunni hubby is dead against donor egg but still smokes, which is considered haram!  

I too am interested in the issues surrounding IVF and Islam. I understand that IVF using the husband's sperm and the wife's egg and her uterus is permissible but that use of a third party ie donor egg or sperm is not, although use of a donor egg is permissible for Shi ite Muslims. I am aware that a lot of Sunni Muslims would like to try IVF using donor eggs but are prevented by the Sunni authorities; some are doing it in secret using clinics in Iran. From a morality perspective I am wondering if it is time that the Sunni Imams and leaders reconsider their hard stance on this issue. As is widely known and reported, this new technology saves marriages; surely then, since it is a desire, even a duty, for a Muslim man to continue his blood line, it is better for a happily married Muslim couple, who love each other dearly, to try IVF using a donor egg, if the wife cannot use her own eggs, than run the risk of the husband at some point seeking a second wife just for this purpose, which would, almost inevitably, wreck his first marriage. The taking of a second wife for the primary purpose of procreation would surely be more sinful than the use of a donor egg by a happily married, loving couple. This is especially so in the case of previously infertile men who are now able to father children due to IVF technology, but find that their wives - who have stayed with and supported their husbands for years - are now too old to conceive a child naturally using their own eggs.  I understand the point about lineage and concerns of incest, however this can be overcome if the donor is known i.e. a family member or friend. The child could learn of his/her genetic inheritance when he/she is an adult. Regarding the requirement that a Muslim man should be married to the egg donor, surely this would be acceptable since it is permissible for a Muslim to take a second wife if his first wife cannot meet all his needs. It would be a temporary arrangement and there could be an agreement signed between the husband and donor.

I understand it would be difficult for the Sunni authorities to rule on this subject, given that they have to interpret God's will from the Quran, which, of course doesn't stipulate anything on the use of IVF, but for the purposes of happy families all round, which can only benefit society, I believe the use of donor eggs - as long as they are from someone well known and close to the couple - can only be a good thing.

I would like your thoughts on this and if you agree, would anyone be able to help further discussion - write a report, enter into dialogue and debate etc of these issues with the Sunni Muslim leaders.  I feel they are out of step with new developments in science and technology.

You can contact me via this forum or privately via PM

Many thanks,

Sharon








*EDIT - Please do not post email addresses publicly - instead use the PM system to swap email addresses!


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## SisterC

Hi Sharon

I have to disagree with you. you wrote "The taking of a second wife for the primary purpose of procreation would surely be more sinful than the use of a donor egg by a happily married, loving couple."

Taking additional wives is a halal act regardless of reason so there is no sin involved in plural marriage itself at all.

As for temporary marriages to egg donors - temporary marriages are haram. They were allowed for a time while the men went off to battle but were later made haram so this is not an acceptable alternative.

As for Sunni versus Shia - Sunni muslims don't consider Shia to be muslims at all.

SisterC


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## sharonannzaki

Hi Sister C

Thank you for your response. I know polygamy is halal; I'm just looking at the bigger picture and wondering if donor egg should also be considered halal on the basis that it saves marriages and could be better for families and thus society than multiple marriages.

Multiple marriages complicates family life. A man may take a second wife to give him a child, but supposing she is unable to bear one? or perhaps she can only manage one and he wants more, so maybe he takes a third or even a fourth wife to fulfil his needs, which is perfectly permissible according to Islamic law. How does this affect all those involved - the wives, children and the husband? The husband must equalize between all his wives: it is evident that this would be nigh on impossible. He would almost certainly become stressed, ill, penniless and no use at all to any of his wives, children, employer or society. The children would suffer because they would only receive half or a third or even only a quarter of their father's time. It has already been established that in order for children to have a correct Muslim upbringing, such that they turn out to be stable and upright citizens, they need their father's influence 100% of the time, not on a shared basis. In these modern times, wouldn't the use of IVF with a donor egg be better than polygamy?

I can see why use of donor sperm is considered haram; the Quran clearly states that although polygamy for men is allowed, polyandry for women is not. A woman would not be allowed to marry a sperm donor as she would already be married and therefore she could not receive his sperm.

Regarding temporary marriages, I believe the Shi ites now say that it isn't necessary for the husband to marry, albeit temporarily, the egg donor. Incidentally, even the Sunni Authorities agree with the Shi ites that it is the gestational carrier who is the mother, not the provider of the egg; as stated in the British Human Fertilization and Embryology Bill of 1990.

The issue is about interpretation. The Sunni Authorities have a difficult job ruling on this subject given that they have to interpret God's will from the Quran, which, of course doesn't stipulate anything on the use of IVF. It is certainly not clear from the teachings of the prophet or what is written in the Quran whether egg donation would be considered halal or haram. However, for the overriding reason that Muslim men are allowed more than one wife, especially if the reason for polygamy is to produce children, for the purposes of happy families all round, which can only benefit society as opposed to multi marriages which may harm it, and since the most important requirement regarding IVF in Islam is that it is done within marriage, it signifies to me that egg donation could be considered halal.

Finally there is one more point to consider regarding clarity re IVF in Islamic society; embryos which are not needed are just discarded, some may say that that is akin to abortion, which the Quran says is haram. Therefore the Sunni Authorities could already inadvertently be committing haram.

In my own case I may not be able to have children using my own eggs due to my age [I'm quite a bit older than my husband]. He says that we'll just have to accept it, that he won't be looking for a second wife; but he also says that he doesn't know how he'll feel in a few years time, he may be yearning for his own child. He will then have the difficult decision of whether he wants to jeopardise our marriage. If the choice is between us having a baby through use of a donor egg or my husband having a baby with someone else, I'd much rather take the gift of the donor egg.

Regards,

Sharon.


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## isobel snow drop

Hi Sharon,

Embryos are frozen and then used in frozen embryo transfers if they can be, not discarded.

Regards

Isobel


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## Iman

Hi sharon

Would he or you consider adoption? I notice that adoption hasn't been mentioned at all yet - when in fact in the case of a couple not being able to have a child of their own, this would be considered (traditionally) the next step ( rather than use of donor sperm/egg)

Adoption is perfectly permissible in Islam and considered a very good act. There are some islamic guidelines surrounding it but it is halal and an encouraged act.

Iman.


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## sharonannzaki

Hi Isobel,

I can't imagine that all embryos would be used.

You have a point about adoption, Iman, but it isn't something we've thought seriously about yet.  From what I know it isn't as straightforward as you might think; also you'd be very lucky if you managed to get a baby, which is what most couples, naturally, want.  With egg donation the resulting baby would be genetically half of the couple - it would have the husband's genes - and men naturally want to continue their own blood line.  Also, couples, naturally, want to go through the whole pregnancy and child birth and breastfeeding experience together themselves.

Can anyone tell me where it is actually stated in the Quran or any other religious scripture that use of donor egg is haram?  I need to know where this is stated and what exactly is written.  I can't find it anywhere.  Also, what exactly is written in the Quran about temporary marriages i.e. are they/were they halal/haram, when did any change occur to the ruling and what are the reasons for any changes; also what are the reasons given for why temporary marriages are/were halal/haram?  

Thank you,

Sharon.


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## Iman

Hi sharon
*
" You have a point about adoption, Iman, but it isn't something we've thought seriously about yet. From what I know it isn't as straightforward as you might think; also you'd be very lucky if you managed to get a baby, which is what most couples, naturally, want. With egg donation the resulting baby would be genetically half of the couple - it would have the husband's genes - and men naturally want to continue their own blood line. Also, couples, naturally, want to go through the whole pregnancy and child birth and breastfeeding experience together themselves" *

I know, if you check the ticker notes below my posts you will see that adoption is the route that my DH and I are going down.

Iman.


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## Iman

Hi Sharon

I think that you obvioiusly have some unanswered questions when it comes to Islam. I dont think that this site is the best place for those questions since the muslim men and women here have not come to debate their faith but to find some support. However there are plenty of sites where you can ask questions like this and discuss with people, where the setting for some of these questions would be more appropriate - I would suggest that you look for one and ask the questions there ( if you need pointers on sites suitable let me know) - or better still ask these questions to your DH. 

Take care.

Iman.


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## SisterC

Hi Sharon
I hope you are keeping well on this difficult journey we all sharing. I have to say that I agree with Iman. Your questions about Islam and the views on different aspects of the area of assisted human reproduction are very important and you need a knowledgeable person to answer your questions. On Islam Channel (available if you have SKY) there is a program called IslamicQA every evening about 7 or 8 (and it is re-run every afternoon) there are a number of people qualified to answer your questions. There is a different sheikh each night so I suggest you watch it for a while to get to know the scholars and how good they are at answering what is asked and then ring in to ask the one with whom you are most comfortable. If you don't want to talk live on the air the producers will arrange for you to talk privately to the Sheikh. Alternatively if you personal message me I will give you the phone number of my Wali who happens to be on the European Council for Fatwa and Research. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. If you need more resources just let me know and I will do my best to get you in touch with a person qualified to explain everything including the ruling on temporary marriages.

Polygamy does not necessarily ruin a marriage. My own mother-in-law had 2 co-wives and her husband was wanting to take another one before he died. Her attitude was "if she is beautiful, and you want to marry her go ahead". She has never complained that any of the co-wives were treated differently from her and she had 13 children of her own. One of her co-wives also had children so it wasn't because of infertility that he took the additional wives. I know my own husband would like to take another wife himself - maybe someone who has the same culture. I don't know how I'd cope with it if he goes ahead though, but whatever is written is written.

Best wishes
SisterC


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## sharonannzaki

Hi Sister C

Thank you for your advise.  I am seeking answers from the religious scholars.  I have a lot of personal opinions about Islam - polygamy, marriage to young girls...  my point is that if the reason for polygamy is procreation because a man's wife is unable to bear children, whereby she may otherwise be able to using donor eggs, if she was given the religious freedom, then surely that would be better for her and her hubby and their families.  Common sense tells me it would.  

Kind regards,

Sharon.


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## DreamTeam

Hi Sharon,

I've been following your posts over the past few weeks interest. It is apparent is that you do have many questions regarding Islam as whole and particularly surrounding the issue of donor eggs. While I understand that this must be very painful for you, surely you must appreciate that debating the issues surrounding faith in a forum dedicated to support is unproductive. I for one, when I enter FF have no desire to debate. I would just like to support others and receive the support when I need.

There are plenty of forums where people will happily debate with you regarding the existance of Islam as well as the reasons behind what we believe. As both Iman and SisterC have said there are plenty of mosques who would readily show you proof, similarly I'm sure your DH could also help you. 

As a final point, muslims who believe, believe that we are to be tested in many ways: our wealth, our health and our children and in that way we seek comfort in knowing that we will not be tested more than we can bear "On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear" (2:286). 

love

Snowbelle


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