# Overseas Success Rates



## AlmaMay

Hi All,

Now that we have reached the end of our treatment with the NHS we have started to look into private clinics including European ones.  We will be moving on to IVF for treatment.  

Are there any European league tables about clinic success rates?  I hear that they are sometimes better than in the UK and that surprises me.  

Thank you,
AlmaMay


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## Ruth

I'm not aware of a European league table, though each country will have their own version of the HFEA which is able to give stats.

Ruth


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## jtlondon

Hello,

As so many people (including me) are considering egg donation abroad and there is lots of information about different clinics being bandied about, I just thought it might be useful if we could put all the info together on one site so it's easier to compare things like success rates, miscarriage rates, cost, how many visits necessary, how much info on donors available, how many patients per year, people's experiences, contact info for clinics etc.  

I'm afraid I'm not great at computers, so don't know how to go about setting up some kind of centralised table where people can add more info on different clinics so that it's all in one place.  Is this possible on FF?  Does anyone know how to do it?

What do people think?  JT


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## Rice cake

Sounds an absolutely wonderful idea but I can't volunteer I'm afraid since I'm crap at computers.

I think though I read on IVF connections about some sort of attempt but am not used to finding my way around their site yet.

Must say I am a bit suspect myself about these foreign sites mentioning 50% success rates (one 90% after a no of attempts) but don't seem to mention the percentage of live birthrates.I think English clinics have to mention the percentage of live birth rates and that seems much more professional & kosher to me


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## pinemarten

Surely it makes more sense to compare pregnancy rates as opposed to live birth rates, as the clinic's work is done once pregnancy has been confirmed or otherwise - whether or not the pregnancy is carried to full term depends on quite a lot of factors outside of the clinic's control ,eg. the mothers general health, lifestyle , genetic factors etc..?


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## Mitch1

Hi, I've have pulled together some of the key stats for ED IVF at the clinics that I am interested in. I am tracking birth success rate as this takes into account miscarraiges, number of cycles per year, donor selection criteria and cost etc...
Happy to share. Don't know how to make this available on this site, but happy to email it if you give your email address.
Also interested to see anything you might have worked up.

Michelle


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## jtlondon

Thanks, I'd love to see what you've pulled together. You can either post it here, or email me at 
Thanks again!

email address removed please use FF IM


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## Rice cake

It would be great if you could send me the chart aswell by posting it here or emailing it at 

email address removed please IM


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## aisling

hi mitch1 would really appreciate your findings. 
My email address (email address removed)  is we are considering Kiev or maybe another place in Russia. i am going for the cheapest all other things considered because we will get more attempts that way. i dont care what it costs in time and travelling etc but we have a very limited budget. ive heard place in russia is very cheap - am i being naive - what could the drawbacks be. Tanks a bunch 
Siobhan (Aisling)

PLEASE IM VIA FF


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## Lisa

hey girls....

just to let you know that personal details are not allowed in post, please use the messaging service provided here on FF exchange personal information this is for your own protection.

Thanks.


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## Mitch1

Oops sorry, didn't realise. Is it possible to attach documents using IM?


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## Rice cake

Siobhan
I like the idea of Eastern Europe since it seems so much cheaper but my cousin who is a consultant in a related field said Eastern Europe has a mammoth  AIDs problem and that has made me think twice since I don't want to pick it up myself during treatment and/or I would not like to have a child who is born with it.


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## aisling

I was reading the other boards and i understand that clinics have a whole lots of blood tests etc for the donors to take. surely they would be screened? it does nt bear thinking about.
Are you sure?
Best of luck
Siobhan


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## AMELIE2

Hi ladies, the clinics i have consulted in east europe (latvia/russia) test both donor + recipient for HIV and other infections. 

the 'best' clinic i have found in east europe is Altravita in moscow.it has a  informative web site and operates to US stds. Pregnancy rates work out btwn 54 and 53% for egg donor programmes and 'no' waiting list! but i am choosing to go to Eugin in barcelona also 53% preg rate ( much nearer, but dearer). what i've noticed is private clinics show their results differently to NHS equilvilents and its almost impossible to compare them like for like.

i went to my GP this morning to see if i could get some medical notes and discuss how to arrange to have some bloodtests done (private) and i was really suprised how helpful she was and has offered to do our bloods at the surgery (foc) which saves about £300. so if you are going private, speak to your GP and they just might help you!

best wishes to all x


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## buzz

Ameli, Good luck with Eugin - I am now pregnant with two bubbas from there!!!

love buzz


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## AMELIE2

oh Buzz, i've gone all goosebumpy at your wonderful news!!! congratulations.
if you have a mo, would you give me details of your experience at Eugin, esp the donor choosing bit, how much donor info do you get (obviously, no names) but do you get info like personality/hobbies if they have children or donated before etc. also where did you stay? They seem 'professional' and their brochure looks good etc, if you had to do it again would you go to the same place?
amelie xx


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## aisling

i echo everything amelia said - but she said it so much better than i could have. Please can i have the info as well.
words cant express how i like to hear these stories of success
Siobhan


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## buzz

Hellooo there

sorry for the delay in getting back...have been preoccupied with nausea and work! what a combo!

Eugin are very nice, very professional, clean friendly and will anwer all your millions of questions throughout your treatment via phone or email (I used email as I was too embarrassed to keep calling them unless it was something really pressing!)...

They don't give you much info on the donor, but on reflection I think this is a good thing as you don't think about her as much as you might if you had lots of detail...I think of these babies as mine/ours, and some very nice lady somewhere helped us along the way....I hope the kids to be into our hobbies hopefully, not wondering if they will be into something the donor was into...they could be anyway, but it would all be a co-incidence!!!  Frankly it is more important that they are their own people!!!

Yes, I would go back there again...I hope I don't have to obviously...for us it was an easy drive from France rather than flights.  I have to say for that reason we did not stay in Barcelona the second time and it was much nicer...but you would need a car....otherwise hotels in Barcelona vary according to your budget...all I will say is be very careful choosing from the internet, and perhaps ask you 'co-ordinator' at Eugin for help...they know the city better than any of us!

Good luck!!!

love
buzz


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## bluebell

Hello there,
When my DH and I were choosing a clinic, we put together a table to help us choose, with factors such as success rates (pregnancies and live births), price of treatment, whether they find a donor before you start treatment or after and various other factors.  What I suggest this needs here is for someone to volunteer to moderate this, and a table can then be produced that can be added to amended by the moderator with people sending them info.  
I'm afraid I haven't got time to do this.  Maybe JT you could contact the FF organisers (e.g. Tony) and ask how (if) they think is the best way to do this.  If something is set up, I will email through our information.  We were comparing IVI Barcelona, IVI Valencia, a clinic on Crete, Ceram in Marbella, and IM Barcelona.
Good luck !!
Bluebell xxx


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## Mitch1

I have put together a smiliar table for the clinics we are considering... Isida, IRM, Fertimed, Alta Vita, IM, Chania, CERAM and am happy to add this to the pot.

Mitch x


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## Salbal

Hi there,

I noticed you were discussing AltraVita - as I'm about to go there it sort of jumped out at me!

I've spoken to a lady who has not long been there (and is now 14wks pg with singleton!!). She works at one of the big london hospitals where she's had IVF in the past and said she was amazed at how much more professional and technically advanced they were over there compared to here. She also said they were lovely people and treated her and her husband wonderfully.

Still, that's third hand now! I've just got my date to go over on 22nd, so will fill you in when I get back, as no one else seems to go there that comes on this board.

Lots of love,

Sal


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## aisling

I have put together a smiliar table for the clinics we are considering... Isida, IRM, Fertimed, Alta Vita, IM, Chania, CERAM and am happy to add this to the pot.

Mitch x  
Posted by: bluebell  Posted on: 9/05/05, 17:24  
Insert Quote  
Hello there,
When my DH and I were choosing a clinic, we put together a table to help us choose, with factors such as success rates (pregnancies and live births), price of treatment, whether they find a donor before you start treatment or after and various other factors.  What I suggest this needs here is for someone to volunteer to moderate this, and a table can then be produced that can be added to amended by the moderator with people sending them info.  
I'm afraid I haven't got time to do this.  Maybe JT you could contact the FF organisers (e.g. Tony) and ask how (if) they think is the best way to do this.  If something is set up, I will email through our information.  We were comparing IVI Barcelona, IVI Valencia, a clinic on Crete, Ceram in Marbella, and IM Barcelona.
Good luck !!
Bluebell xxx  

I am a software tutor and will attempt to put together a table if you post me your details
i actually have mitchs unless its been updated.so Bluebell if you want to sent me on your information - iwill do my best to merge it with mitchs info and set up table in that way.
Baby dust to us all
Siobhan


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## aisling

hi everyone
i made a mess of message #19 the top messages should have been shown as quotes. sorry about that.
Basicially im offering to set a table up comparing results in foreign clinics if you want to send me any results youve gathered together.
siobhan


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## jtlondon

Thanks, Siobhan.  That's great that you've got the computer know-how!

You've probably already thought of these, but can I suggest some categories for the table:
Name of clinic
Location
clinic email/phone number/website
cost of airfare
cost of treatment (in euros and £)
number of visits necessary
% pregnancy success rate
% live birth success rate
% miscarriage rate
what details of donor available
length of waiting list
extra wait for blonde/blue eyes?
how many treatments they do a year
how many embryos they put back
LOTS of space for personal testimonies for people who have been to the various clinics

Many thanks for offering to do this.
I have a bit of info already which you might want to add:

IM Barcelona
www.institutomarques.com
[email protected]
Cost: 8990 euros = £6221
70% preg rate
10% miscarriage rate

CERAM
Marbella
www.ceram.es
[email protected]
cost 5400 euros
52% pregnancy rate (I think)

IVI Madrid
[email protected]
65% pregnancy rate

Clinica Eugin
[email protected]
53% pregnancy rate

Fertimed
Czech Republic
[email protected]
cost: 2500 for 2 visits, 3500 for 1 visit
35% pregnancy rate

Thanks and look forward to seeing the table! JT


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## Ruth

We are looking at this issue with Tony and Mel aiming to have a clinic review section as they have for clinics in UK.
Just to say though, 5400 euros for CERAM is with ICSI, normal price 5000, 52.3% is nearly our live birth rate for 2004.

Ruth


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## bluebell

Hello there,
I will email my table once I have typed it up, but may not be for a couple of weeks as next week I am hoping to go to IVI Barcelona for my ED ET.

I think there needs to be a way included here to verify the pregnancy stats.  We need to be sure we are showing the correct and up to date ones for clinical pregnancies and live birth ratesso as not to mislead people.  Maybe someone could volunteer to coordinate emailing them all to confirm correct data.

Well done Aisling, Ruth and JT for progressing this !!
Bluebell


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## bilbo1

Hello.  I am new to this site and am doubtful about my ability to navigate it.  I would be interested in any stats you have teh different clinics in Spain.  We have an appointment at Dexeus Barcelona, but its waiting lists for egg donation (synchronised cycle) is 10-12 months.  We are being told that the waiting list for IVI Barcelona is 2 months!  Is that true?  I have so far not managed to raise IVI Valencia - phone always engaged.  Any views on these clinics (and waiting times) would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Rosie.


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## ZenaE

Ruth,
Question for you.
You said that the live birth rate is about 52.30% for 2004.
Does that mean for all the ladies who had egg donation treatment during 2003 and 2004, just over half of them were successful? 
Also does this take into account that some of the ladies who gave birth in 2004 actually had their treatment in 2003).
Just asking so that we understand what is behind the figures.
Cathie


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## Ruth

Our clinical pregnancy rate was nearer to 60% but due to miscarrages, that figure has come down to 52%. This is for embryo transfers in 2004, a certain number have delivered and the others are over 5 months pregnant and I certainly hope that they don't miscarry now!!!

Ruth


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## aisling

hi all 
i am working tonight but will create the table tomorrow - i will then email the various clinics to make sure of stats. Depending on their replies i will post table asap. 
Siobhan


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## Lisa

Just wanted to let you know that I am in discussion with the powers that be.

we have added a patient review board and hopefully in the very near furture, a table available for all on clinics abroad please bear with us!!

in the mean time happy chatting and feel free to add your own clinic

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,148.0.html


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## aisling

Mitch Bluebell and JT.

Lisa tinks78 is talking to tony about setting up the table comparing clinics etc. She has asked me to forward all the stuff that i have. Would you mind if i passed it on - most of it is your work.
Let me know
Baby dust to us all
Siobhan


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## Rice cake

IVI's website states:
"The pregnancy rate per embryo transfer is 50%. The accumulated pregnancy rate of patients accumulating 4 cycles reaches 94.8%. The miscarriage rate is 23.64% and the ectopic pregnancy rate is 1.28%."
So that seems to get the live birth rate per cycle to about 39%

jtlondon stated IVI Madrid's 
pregnancy rate was  65% so Madrid may have higher success rates than the other IVI clinics


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## bluebell

Hello all,
IVI Barcelona told me on the phone that they have a pregnancy rate of 60%.  However, they had only been open about 3 months at that point, so the figures would have been a bit arbitrary anyway !  However, this still contradicts the general IVI website statement that pregnancy rates are 50%.
That's why I think it is important for whoever is setting up this database to get each centre to confirm in writing what their rates are, so as to avoid mistakes !!!
Bluebell xx


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## Lisa

Hey there comparing clinics people!!!


OK to let you know what we are at !!! Tony is going to make a thread where results and clinics can be viewed .. however this is a complex issue and we may need to contact the clinics direct  so if I could ask you to bear with us... for now, 

If aisling you could send me the list you ahve I would be most grateful it will give us a staring point!!

Thanks for your patience... 

Lisa


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## jtlondon

Hi Siobhan,
Of course I don't mind you using the info I sent - I just hope it's correct.
Good luck with the table and look forward to seeing it.
JT


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## Rice cake

Here are some entries on IVF connections:

"May 05-Marilyn, I was interested to hear that ivi Barcelona's success rate is actually 44% for births. That's the first time I've heard it put like that by ivi. I suppose that is pretty good anyway isn't it? Do you think IM's is better? Am I right that IM is closing for refurbishment?

'May 05-We have received your e-mail from last Monday 16th of may. We do not have any doctor with the name Castillon but I am glad to give you any helpful
information on our clinic. The price for egg-cell donation is 4424 euros
excluding fees for the donor's drugs which are an extra 1000 euros. Our
waiting list for a first appointment is of 15 days while the waiting list
for the egg donation is of three months. Our donors are from 18-35 years
old. The only information we can give on the donor is her age and her blood
type. Traits and characteristics are obviously respected. Our success
rates are 53% to what transfer success is concerned but this decreases to
44% when we only take into account the pregnancies that evolve favorably to
a birth. Our waiting list is of three months which means the waiting time
for a transfer is about four months and a half. All the tests that you need"


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## bigJ

Hi ladies,

I know that obviously pg rates are the ultimate result, but maybe it would be a good idea to look at fertilisation rates  I know that depends on the dh sperm, assuming donor eggs for example, but if a lot of high quality eggs are produced and not good rates of fertilisation despite ICSI and apparently normal sperm that leaves people (like us right now) with no frosties and having to fund a whole new cycle (if we get a BFN) which I think is a relevant statistic..maybe looking at FET success also..

sorry if you already have this on the list, I haven't scanned the whole thread

Love bigJ


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## paperopoli

(I apologize for my bad English)
Eugin's director states a 69% success rate for egg donation (see 
www.eizellspende.de/englisch/countries/spain/euginspanienengl.html ) versus 48% for "normal" IVF. The low figures (around 50%) that some posters report for this and other clinics are apparently for regular IVF rather than egg donation . I'm not an authority in the field, but I know there is a big difference, mainly because egg donors are very fertile women. 
  So we can sum up:
Major spanish clinics:  70% or close to it for egg donation fresh-embryo transfer  ( Marques states 70, Eugin 69, IVI Valencia and IVI Madrid were at 65 a while ago and the new Barcelona clinic should be in the same league. Instituto Cefer - www.institutocefer.com - is also a major clinic but I haven't got figures for them).
Ceram (Marbella) close to 60%  ( some other spanish clinics should have similar success rates, e.g. FIVMadrid reports 57.5% on its website www.fivmadrid.es (spanish only) but it' s a rather old figure.
Altravita (Moscow) 56% ( median patient age 46, higher than most clinics)
I haven't got figures for other eastern clinics, but Isida (Kiev) has a good reputation.
With regard to age groups, recipient's age doesn't seem to be a very important factor in egg donation's outcome; and since ED is usually performed on relatively mature women the data hold for them. Maybe if a woman is much younger than the "average" patient she can have slightly better chances, but IMHO that's all.


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## paperopoli

I'm sorry, the correct URL is
www.eizellspende.de/Englisch/Countries/Spain/Euginspanienengl.htm .


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## alanelaine

Hi, we've just joined and were wondering if this database ever got produced?

Any help anyone?


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## Womb with a View

Hi Alanelaine!  Welcome to the FF Forum.  It's a great find and has been immensely helpful to me.  I too would like the listings of the clinics abroad.  We've booked an initial appointment at the Instituto Marques in Barcelona for 2 weeks time and my dealings with them have been very good so far.  I came across them because my Chinese Herbalist/Acupuncturist has had many clients have good results with them.

Good luck to you!


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## sox

Hi,

New to this but if anyone can offer any guidence about IVF abroad (anywhere) at a more reasonable cost than the uk, please tell me

Many thanks 

sox


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## jan32

sox i think crete in creece is around 6,000 euro we got 12 embryos on our cycle hope it helps


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## Mitch1

Fine to use the stats table that I pulled together.
For me the most important stat was the live birth rate in conjunction with the number of cycles of ed ivf performed per year.

Mitch x


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## melj215a

hi Michelle
i would like this information as well as /I'm finding it v difficult to get info but am not sure how to IM you on this site so that i can contact you to get this info.
Mel215a


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## alanelaine

OK, I know that some of this is covered on other threads but I'm still curious.

I watched the three sisters thing on BBC on Monday and at ET they were advised that after implantation the success rate was still only 25%.

Abroadie rates seem to go as high as 60% (or even more!) and I know that this is not necssarily Live Birth Rates.  How come the chances overseas are so much better than in the UK; was the 25% rate quoted in this programme accurate for this stage of IVF?

Naturally, I realise that younger donors tend to mean fewer difficulties but is there another reason for the higher rates.

I may have answered my own question but I personally find "rates" to be wholly confusing as there does not seem to be a standard level playing field from which to judge.

All help appreciated.


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## Lisa

hi there I think the rates are to do with many factors..

1 ... in most cases a higher number of embies can be transferred.

2 ... there are little or no waiting list abroad 

3 yes younger donors are just a few to mention.

Lisa


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## safarigirl

Hi Alane
Good question!  I thought the same thing when i watched the documentary. I think other success rates (this is my general info not expert opionion!) are attrributed to donor eggs being fresh and not frozen. (although they did this in the documentary)

IM in barcelona does give a 70% success rate with a 60% birthrate, and Ceram is about 10% different.

Interested in other opinions


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## bluebell

Hello,
I think you are rigth about the younger donors.
Also often in UK egg donation is done through egg sharing with donors who are themselves going through treatment, so there may be a problem with their eggs too.
However, that doesn't explain the 3 sisters being given the 25% chance, as that was from a woman with proven fertility history.
My feeling is that there must be something about the Spanish clinics maybe having more experience in the techniques of egg donation.  That was the theory as well that my consultant here in the UK had.
Also, Spanish clinics are often using proven donors.
It is hard to unravel, because we son't know if the3 sisters were being given the national average rate for success in UK, or whether that was supposed to be a percentage tailored to them. 
It is all so complex !
Do you have a clinic here in the UK ?  You could ask them what they think about the differences in rates.
Good luck and let us know if you find anything out.
Bluebell xxxxxxx


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## alanelaine

We have a clinic here but we're seeing Ruth for our first consultation at CERAM on Tuesday so it's less important to me personally as to why the rate is low here and more important to me as to why the rate is higher overseas.  That said, I am interested as it's something which is frequently discussed by our close friends and relatives who don't always see the benefits of going overseas.

I should also come clean and admit that one of our friends is a GP and she is likely to ask us all about this experience and I hope to be helpful so that she can offer the best advice in her practice.  My own experience of our very able GP is that she was quite positibe when I mentioned going abroad so I realise that not everbody adopts the "Oh my God, how desperate must they be" attitude.

Thanks for all the advice


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## bluebell

Hello alanelaine,
Just one last thought ..... you say you aren't interested in why rates are low here, but why rates are high there ... well the two are surely relative, ie an explanation from here would maybe explain the difference, if that makes sense ?
Good you have your GP chum .. I'm sure that will be a real help to you.
Bluebellx


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## Womb with a View

Hi guys.  I know at the IM in Barcelona that they don't stimulate their donors very much as they hope to get many more uses out of them!  (They put it so much more delicately, I have to say!)  They also use known donors as well who have a track record of being very fertile.  ?


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## Jennifer

Hi Alanelaine 

Sorry, slightly off topic but...
I just thought I would mention that my GP was very enthusiastic about us going abroad for tx and supported us all the way.  He got excited as the date neared and nearly fell off his chair with excitement when I took him the picture of our embryos !  I have been very open about it at the surgery and the nurses and other GPs I have seen there have all been fantastic and very curious.  I have not had any negative comments from anybody - thank goodness 

Good Luck with your appt with Ruth - you will be in good hands 

Jennifer xx xx


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## earthe kitt

Another reason could be that the clinics abroad are generally cleaner and better organised than those in the UK. How many times have I turned up for an appointment on time only to be waiting in a corridor for 1 1/2 hours?
Why don't they have waiting rooms? - infertility is bad enough without having to sit on a row of chairs in a corridor our problem on display to any passing porter, contractor or visitor
It all adds to the stress....
I have only experience of one clinic abroad (and what I've read on here from others) but I have experience of a number of clinics in the UK. The are generally grubby and neglected with piles of boxes and cylinders in corridors etc, and as for the toilets... - the best loo I've come across is in the basement of LFC - and that's not saying a lot.
Also, clinics abroad do not have the HFEA breathing down their necks. I have mentioned my feelings about the HFEA elsewhere but we have to bear in mind that it may be in their interest that treatment is not successful as they get a £200 "bung" for every attempt...

Jo


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## RozLu

I'm suddenly quite confused about this.
I've been told 50-60% chance with DE in Spain but now I'm wondering whether this is pregnancy rather than live birth rate.
London Fertility Clinic web site has success rate stats on it - says 40-45% births - making the 25% in the program seem very low...
I think there are probably differences in how things are measured too. E.g. when we tried for IVF, we never actually got enough eggs... and I'm sure we won't be counted in the stats as we didn't have the tx - i.e. the IVF stats apply to people who actually get as far as the tx..
R


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## Womb with a View

Blimey Jo, I didn't know that!  £200 each time.  

I have to say that the waiting room facilities at the Hammersmith are very calming as, say, opposed to the ARGC which I found had me strung out on my first appointment there - it was like Oxford Circus come rush hour!  Relaxation is the key to getting us ladies preggars I'm sure and if someone at the ARGC could fix that damn front door.....it bangs everytime someone comes in or out.  Arrrrrgh!  However, the IM was like a high-tec, clean heaven!  Very relaxed.


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## RozLu

Blimey, Jo and AJLondon - didn't know about the HFEA £200 either.
Jo, where are your HFEA "rantings"? I have responded to a couple of surveys (in a slightly ranting kind of way), volunteered for consultation etc and no one has bothered to contact me. Makes me mad...
R
x


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## Lorna

Couple of comments from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmsctech/7/702.htm

300. One should be cautious in drawing a link between the regulatory regime and the standard of medical practice, since cultural differences between patients and the medical professions could contribute to perceived differences. However, the UK has tighter regulation than many other countries and yet it appears to have failed to match the best practice of neighbouring countries.
and 
385 It(the HFEA) makes the mistake of believing that tight regulation is good regulation. As we stated in Chapter 5, there are good grounds for concluding that the HFEA's regulation has not been good regulation.

And my impression from this report, is that the countries with the highest pregnancy rates, are those that are regulated by experts in the field, and not by a bunch of amateurs(HFEA). By law 60% of the HFEA committee *must be* people who have not worked and know nothing about infertility, and as a result they have tied everyone up in red tape, so they are seen to be doing something, because they actually haven't got a clue.

The press has told us, how good places like Finland are in implementing Single embryo transfer. Yet in Finland you are twice as likely to be pregnant after IVF, than you are in the UK. And furthermore, in Finland, where the doctor/patient decide how many embryos to transfer, a doctor is allowed to transfer up to 4 embryos, if they think that is the right thing to do!

In countries where top experts in the field decide on treatment standards, women are more likely to get pregnant, even with single embryo transfer. In countries like Italy and the UK, where regulation strangles the life out of the system, a woman may have to go through many more treatment cycles to achieve that longed for pregnancy.

And one final note on clinic standards. The EU tissue directive sets standards for clinics, in all 26 European countries. 25 EU countries, including the latest countries to join, will implement the standard by April 2006. The 26th country, the UK, has pleaded that it will be unable to raise standards in clinics in time, so the HFEA has asked for an extension. The UK does not have to meet the new standard till April 2007!

Lorna


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## earthe kitt

I thought you were all aware about just how much you're paying to the HFEA for each cycle.
Since this morning, I've set a FOI request to the HFEA about fees for various types of treatment and just how much income they got in 2004/05 from patients.

My shorthand view is that the HFEA is staffed by what I call "smug parents" who haven't got a clue about the emotional aspects and pain of infertility and make those of us with fertility issues jump through hoops and suffer unnecessarily

I hope that doesn't offend anyone 

Jo


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## Womb with a View

Thanks Lorna!  It's mad, isn't it?  Can't quite get my head around it yet.  Thanks for your info - really impressed you know all this.


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## alanelaine

Thanks again to all who helped.

If I find anything else out I will post again.......


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## nicola-anne

Hi Everyone, 

Thank you for your postings, especially yours Lorna, really really interesting, I for one have been enlightened - and as a result outraged! - reading them. The HFEA should be ashamed.

Nicola-Anne


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## bluebell

Ditto to what Nicola Anne has just said.

I would also like to add that I have always found HFEA particularly unhelpful if I have phoned them asking for advice about treatment abroad.  They have said that they are unable to comment on treatment abroad basically because it is abroad, hence outside their remit or experience.  I suggested to whoever I spoke to that it is becuase of HFEA regulations that women are being forced abroad, so it is in their interest, (and indeed their responsibilty) to investigate this matter, keep abreast of what is happening and give support to women going abroad, ie not wash their hands of the issues as they are doing now.
In fact there is nowhere that we can officially get support (apart from FF of course), because neither the Donor Conception Network nor the Gamete Donation Trust will talk to women about going abroad (and indeed the Donor Conception network have said to me that they don't agree with it).

So we really are on our own.  Good job we have each other.

Bluebellxx


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## RSMUM

Bluebell :- Well said old girl!!  In fact, bloody well said!  You are soo right..I mean, the way we are all portrayed.." fertility tourists",    I mean, for goodness sake, this is no damned holiday as far as I'm concerned....anyway..don't get me started..just thought that was BRILLIANT!  

ooh, just realised there's TONS posted today before all this - better get reading..you lot have really been going for it haven't you?!


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## RSMUM

oh..just realised that this thread has been going since the 2nd..   must be losing it...   VERY interesting reading ( even to MY muddled brain! )..


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## bluebell

Yes, it's all infuriating stuff !  
I have been thinking of taking this all up politically. I might do once I go off on leave.
Bluebellxx


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## ZenaE

Hi Girls,

You are right, there is no one in this country apart from your clinic and FF to ask advice from about going abroad, as you say the HFEA will not make a comment about it. Nor will the NGDT, then as for the Donor Conception Network, they do seem against it, they ask you to consider that the child's background will be foreign and not British.

We are definitely not tourists, we are being driven down this route as the waiting lists are so long in this country, and for some of us the time really is running out as we are getting older.

Surely what we really need is more awareness in this country of the need for both egg and sperm donors and the realisation that infertility is actually a bigger problem than most of us realise.

Those are my thoughts anyway, 
Take care everyone.


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## Lorna

Hi Bluebell,

If you do take this up politically you night want to think about some of the things that Dr. Evan Harris Liberal Democrat MP has said. His web site is: http://www.evanharris.org.uk/
I like the changes, he wants to make, in the infertility laws. But perhaps you want to read some of the things he has written/helped write, and some of the things he has said in interviews, and make up your own mind.

He would like the HFEA to produce a guide, that would help people find good foreign clinics for treatment. I personally think this is unlikely to occur. Why?
OK here is my opinion on why it will never happen.
I have only ever considered the 60% of the HFEA committee that is made up of lay people, that is people who have never worked, and have nothing to do with infertility. But there is another 40% of the committee that is made up of "experts", that is professionals drawn from clinics across the country.
If those professionals were to write a guide that helped people find quality clinics overseas, then those professionals would find that their clinics made less money, and so they might find themselves out of a job.
Just my two pennyworth
Lorna


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## bluebell

Thanks Lorna,
I will look at Dr Evan Harris's website, and yes I agree with your views. I live in Scotland so I will be starting with MSPs (Members of Scottish Parliament) first to get support (I have quite a few MSP contacts), and will then broaden it to UK-wide.
Thanks for the support.  Have you done anything political?
Bluebellxxx


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## babycrazy

You can take a look at each of the international threads and see for your self amount of BFPs and remember this is only those couples who post on FF. there is lots of otherswho dont.
I went to CZ, 1st IVF with donor eggs,and it worked,Clinics in C.Z quote ave 60% success rate and they are true, not made up like Brit Dr,s say. You can look at Reprofit in CZ (very cheap) another and only other brit couple (to date) at my clinic Repromeda got BFP 1st time both DE cycles.
XX
Karen


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## LabLover

We are looking to go abroad for egg donation.  

The clinics in UK are quoting a success rate of 30 - 40% with donated eggs.

Yet the clinics abroad are quoting 55 - 75% success.  How can this possibly be so different?  I know in America they like to replace 3 embryos at blast if possible and then suggest foetal reduction if you end up with triplets but I am so not into that game!  The Spanish clinics seem to replace 2 embryos but the success rates seem so high compared to here.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Thanks

H


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## misspolly

Hi Lablover,
I think their success rates are high because they often use young donors (in their twenties). I have been to IVI Alicante twice and got pregnant twice (first one ended in termination because sudden rupture of the sac caused baby's brain to grow on the outside).
Hope this helps,
Misspolly x


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## LabLover

I'm so sorry to hear about your first pregnancy.  And thrilled to hear of this one though.  All the best for a happy and healthy pregnancy.

So it's all about age then?  Clinics here more often than not use egg sharers who tend to be in their 30s with fertility problems.  We got one embryo from our donor and a negative result of course.  Don't know why I expected anything else!

H x


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## bluebell

Hello,
Just to add that I also think the higher success rates are to do with:
1.  The clinics abroad being much more experienced in egg donation treatments.
2.  Not doing egg share (therefore not using women that have fertility problems themselves already).
3.  Possibly (?) stimulating donors more than we do in this country
IVI clinics certainly use donors up to the age of 35, so it isn't alsways young donors.  Our donor that we had with our successful tx was 34, but with a proven track record of successfuk donation.  
Hope this helps. 
Bluebell xx


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## earthe kitt

I think it helps that clinics abroad are cleaner, you are not left hanging around in corridors for hours waiting for ech scan, they have better quality donors, they know what they are doing and the emotional stigma of being a donor recipient isn't always hanging over you

All in all, they are far more professional and better at what they do

Jo


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## MrsC

I wouldn't agree that donors are overstimulated. At IM in Spain, they told me that they went the other way and did not seek to get large nos of eggs. My donor, so I'm told, was 26 and produced just 8 eggs, of which only 6 were mature. We only got 3 eggs out of that for transfer, and only 1 was good quality. I'm 42, and with my own eggs have produced 22, 12 and 14 eggs on normal cycles without being excessively stimulated (225 gonal or puregon av dose). So I was a tad disappointed if anything with the results. DH wants me to go back to using my own eggs but of course it's the age that's important ...


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## AlmaMay

Also you must remember that the UK ranks amongst the worst in Europe for overall success rates not just with donor eggs.  We are doing something wrong but that's a different debate....


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## barbaramary

One reason IMs results are good and I think this also applies to other Spanish clinics is that they go when the donor is ready not when it is convienient.  That is they are prepared to do egg collection on any day including weekends and not try to get the donor to produce eggs on Monday/Tuesday so ET can be Thursday/Friday.  It does complicate matters as you have to be there at the drop of a hat but for better results!!


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## LabLover

But WHAT is it that we are doing wrong AlmaMay?


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## Oestre

Hi,

I'm new to this site but I'm a statistical researcher and just wanted to highlight a couple of things about comparing the "success rates" for clinics in different countries using a single figure because I'm concerned that people (like me) should get accurate information.

Firstly - be aware that there is no standard way of presenting these success rates across Europe, and I suspect that the high level of variation may come from differences in *how the stats are arrived at * rather than from real differences between clinics. Remember it is in the clinic's best interest to report the *HIGHEST* rate that they can, as _they will get more clients that way_.

More importantly, the success rate will vary according to:

Age, use of donor eggs, number of cycles,

Your particular medical history/problem etc. + _Chance_

This web-page has a good, honest write-up on the chances of success:

http://www.brusselsivf.be/default.aspx?PageId=6782

Take a look at the graph which has a good breakdown by age of the woman and number of cycles [click on it to enlarge it].

So for me, I'm 44, and only plan to have *one* cycle (due to age, money etc), so my chances of conceiving are probably less than 10%, (possibly even with a donor egg - as I was told my chances of conceiving with my own eggs wer only 1-2% without one by a British clinic, and with a high risk of aborting). 
[I've also noted that in Belgium and Norway they only treat women up to 44 partly because of the increased health risks (hypertension etc) associated with an IVF pregnancy after that age, another reason for only having one cycle].

I'd certainly like to see the evidence (hard data) for some of the Spanish clinics claiming success rates of 60-70%. These rates seem very high, I wonder if there is an independent regulator for these figures produced by private clinics over there? I'm guessing not. So be aware of this.

By comparing single figure success rates you may not be comparing like with like. Some clinics may just be being more honest than others. It's impossible to know at the moment.

Sorry if this is bad news for anyone out there, but it's a lot of money for some of us and better to be realistic rather than to build your hopes up too much - that's my take anyway.

I hope this is helpful to some of you.

me


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## Ruth

Hiyyah

Thank you for your interpretation of success rates. I have also seen where clinic will have in small print "success after 2 cycle" or the like which does make stats ambiguous as not everyone will see that!

Having said that I worked at a clinic out in Spain and was responsible for putting together success rates for couples coming for egg donation and the success rate IS over 50% as it is the age of the egg that determines chances of success rather than the body. Most of my patients were very late 30´s and mainly 40´s and having helped over 700 couples I think I can confirm that clinics do get high success rates.

Ruth


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## roze

Personally I would also caution against a standard view of health risks in older women. Clinics may have cut off rates for other reasons.

I am 48 and pregnant with twins. I have a daughter aged 2. I have had no complications whatsoever with blood pressure in either pregnancy. I have a test for diabetes next week but I don't think this is going to come out as positive. I attended my clinic on Friday and met a tall slim, 21 year old women with high blood pressure - she said she was being taken in  for bed rest as the meds were not working.  High BP and other complications are not necessarily always related to age. What is more relevant is good health and physiology.
Pregnancy is a complicated state and many women develop different aspects of toxicity ( ie pre eclampsia)  depending on many things.  I would therefore urge women in their 40s to obtain specialist advice on their own circumstances rather than to believe that after a certain age it gets much too dangerous. 
As my consultant pointed out, age is one of many risk factors in pregnancy not the only one and 48 year old women can differ a lot in their health and risk profile.  I probably had the lot, 40s, overweight, IVF etc, but nothing has materialised, probably as I do have a good diet and have never smoked, and physiologically  I respond positively to pregnancy- sheer luck.
And if someone does have problems most risks can be managed in any case.


roze


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## Jantlp

Statistics were an important consideration for me when choosing a clinic for egg donation and I have learnt to look very closely at what they are measuring as you are not always comparing like with like. An initial comparison of stats form two clinics I was interested showed one to have a much higher success rate than the other, but on closer inspection I noticed that the clinic with the better stats was quoting the success rate for an initial pregnancy test and only included women who had two embryos transfered at 5 day old blastocyst stage whereas the clinic with the lower success rates included all women whether they had one or two embryos transfered at either 3 or 5 days that were still pregnant at 12 weeks gestation. Knowing that the success rates reflected different factors meant that I did not automatically select the clinic quoting the higher figures and was able to make a more informed choice. I have decided to go with the second clinic.


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## petalh

Hi
This is really interesting because i am struggling to decide which clinic to attend.
All the information on here is just making my head want to explode   
Which clinic did you finally decide to attend??
wish you both all the best in your treatment
Helen


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## No3?

I know what you mean Helen.  It is just a nightmare trying to decide especially when you want to do it asap!  The whole idea of goign abroad sounded bonkers to me at first and I worry that as I am so desperate, I could be taken for a ride.  I just can't believe how unclear things are for us all.


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