# The last great taboo - Today's Daily Mail online



## Wraakgodin (Jun 17, 2006)

I had a cry reading this:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1038090/The-great-taboo-Why-childless-women-treated-like-second-class-citizens.html#

The last great taboo: Why are we childless women treated like second-class citizens?

Interview By Alison Smith Squire

My hostess grabbed my arm at a party the other night.

'I've got some ladies I just know that you, being a teacher, will have lots in common with,' she enthused.

Having joined the group, the usual middle-class discussion you tend to hear among parents then ensued: which are the best schools in the area, what are their catchment areas, and are the extortionate fees needed these days for the private system worth the money?

For a few minutes, the conversation flowed well.

But then one of the women asked me the killer question that I knew would instantly make me a total outsider to this group of mothers: 'And how old are your children?'

Six pairs of eyes swivelled to me as I muttered my immortal line: 'I don't have children. I can't have them.'

Six faces took on an uncomfortable expression.

A conversation stopper? Too right it is.

In my 14 years of trying unsuccessfully to become a mother, I have come to realise what not being a parent really means.

In a nutshell, exclusion from that big club of women who have children. In practice, exclusion from most of our child-obsessed society.

It is an attitude which compounds the emotional grieving process I find myself living to a greater or lesser extent pretty much all the time.

Sadly, I'm used to the way those women seemed almost physically to shrink from my childlessness. It's the same way that other parents react when I tell them.

They, after all, are that blessed group of clever clogs who are able to function normally and produce children.

They are able to fulfil the role of womanhood and contribute to the continuation of the human species. They are not-like me - defective.

They don't need to tell me what they are thinking because I can read it in their faces - that unless you have actually given birth to your own biologically genetic child, you can never know what it is really to love someone.

The deeper subtext to their response - especially in relation to my being a teacher - is that unless you have had your own baby, your views on children probably don't count for much.

Take any society around the world and you will see that producing a baby is at the top of the tree as far as a woman's achievements are concerned.

If you cannot do that, then you are some kind of second-class woman.

Of course, you can pretend that having babies doesn't matter, and kid yourself that having a fantastic, lucrative career is the most wonderful thing in your life. But you will be kidding yourself.

You have only to look at our fascination with celebrities to see how much society is captivated by fertility, pregnancy and children.

Which story gets more hits on a website? That Jennifer Lopez has released a new album, or the news that her massive baby bump has turned into a pair of bouncing twins? Lucky, lucky J-Lo.

The problem for me is that I never imagined myself in a world where I didn't have any children of my own.

At the age of 45, I have now accepted that I will never have them, but it is still hard to accept the unfairness of it all.

Yes, I've enjoyed a good career as a teacher, but I was never one of those women who naively assumed they could cheat nature and their biological clock, and produce a clutch of perfect babies in my 40s.

Instead, aged 30, when I met my husband David, we began trying for a child.

When it didn't happen straight away, I wasn't too concerned.

But £20,000 and a string of broken test-tube dreams later, I found out what a con IVF and all its other mutations can be.

Tests told me I had a condition called endometriosis. My fallopian tubes were blocked and my uterus was severely scarred.

And yet, with some assistance from a laboratory, I did succeed in having two embryos implanted. But several weeks later I lost them both.

At that point, I was left with a gaping hole of grief. The thought that those embryos would never develop personalities was simply devastating.

I would never change their nappies, go to their parent-teacher consultation, do the school run or rub dirty fingermarks off the walls of our house with that big garden which is so ideal for children to run round in.

I felt, at that point, like a visiting species from another planet; an alien; a TV set that has all the right equipment, but is not plugged in.

In the end, I stopped having treatment. Our lives had become a living hell of ovulation kits, visits to hospital, endless scans and injections.

Also, I'd begun to feel IVF was big business.

I wasn't sure if the doctors even wanted us to get pregnant.

Perhaps it's good for them that their success levels are low because repeat treatments obviously make more money.

During this time, working at a different school, I had to take time off. But my employer considered it non-essential.

A year later, because of all the time I'd had off for my 'non-essential' IVF, I was refused a pay rise. It went to tribunal and was settled out of court.

For me, it showed a terrible discrimination towards the childless.

And I began to understand that as well as the subtle prejudice I have encountered so often from groups of mothers who simply don't quite know what to do with me, there are many more visible markers in life which daily force me to confront the fact that I will never be a mother.

There are the annoying little things like special spaces reserved in supermarket car parks, and time off granted at work places for a whole host of reasons - if their child is unwell, for example, or they have a sports day to attend.

On a daily basis, the fact that I am childless is pushed down my throat.

The adverts for family restaurants, family holidays, family days out are everywhere you look, from cereal packets to bus stops. It seems that everything revolves around parents with children.

Thankfully, my husband has three grown-up children from a previous marriage.

I say 'thankfully' because the guilt I would feel if he did not have children, and I could not give him any, would be so terrible it could have destroyed us.

Needless to say, he has been my rock. He would have loved me to have his babies, but he does not have the overwhelming desire that I have.

Still, my own situation was brought sharply to the fore recently when we stumbled across a box of mementos, letters and drawings from his children when they were small, saying that he was the best daddy in the world and how much they loved him.

Then, recently, his daughter came to visit and they laughed about something 'being in their genes' - and I realise that no one has half my genes.

This is why using another woman's egg to help me conceive wasn't an option. To me, that's just pretending you are a mother; a lie.

You are not biologically related to the person you produce at all.

Unless you give birth to a biological child, the end of the line is you. Being childless is a lifelong sentence.

Even when you die, you risk having no one to leave anything to - no child or grandchildren to whom you can bequeath your life's possessions, no one who will benefit from your life's work.

As the years have passed and I have remained without a child, I have gone through the phase of all my friends and relatives having babies, of feeling that terrible mixture of joy for them and despondency for myself, with the disagreeable tinge of envy.

Now their babies are growing up, and before we know it they will be adults who are having children themselves. Not me.

I will never be the tearful mother of the bride, or look up proudly at my strapping son.

I will not be searching for my likeness and mannerisms in my daughter or son's new baby, and no one will ever call me 'Mum' or 'Grandma'.

As a teacher, I see parents with their children every day. They have one thing in common.

However naughty, unpleasant or lacking in intelligence their child is, you can guarantee this: dare to criticise that child too much and the mother will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

But, then, that's a mother's love, you see.

And painful though it must be to love someone so much that you would die for them, the biggest sadness for me is that I will never get to experience it at all.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## crusoe (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm afraid it just annoys me ...
" using another woman's egg to help me conceive wasn't an option. To me, that's just pretending you are a mother; a lie. "

I do think that is a thoughtless and unforgiveable comment.

C x


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## Suzie (Jan 22, 2004)

Unless you give birth to a biological child, the end of the line is you.

Don't agree with this one either! 

x


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## scoobylooby (May 13, 2008)

Blimey! Not too sure what i thought about that! You can relate to bits of it...but then it gets a bit bitter and strange!

Like the ladies above, i thought comments about egg sharing were harsh.I don't think women in this category are "pretending" to be mothers! Nor mothers who foster or adopt children. I think she's coming from a very narrow minded perspective. 

Being a "mother" to me means much more than being a biological parent. If i can't have my own children i may well adopt and "mother" somebody elses because i know i have the skills to nurture and love a child through it's life...that's what it's all about isn't it??


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## Tottie (Aug 10, 2006)

> I'm afraid it just annoys me ...
> " using another woman's egg to help me conceive wasn't an option. To me, that's just pretending you are a mother; a lie. "
> 
> I do think that is a thoughtless and unforgiveable comment.
> ...


Couldn't agree with you more Crusoe. I find that an offensive opinion, especially coming from someone desperate to have children who should know better than to make such comments.

Good luck with your adoption process by the way, hope it's all going really well for you.
Tottie xx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Some of her comments come across as a different form of prejudice/taboo?  Having a child via a donated egg is a lie!  It's a matter of opinion!  It ' s insensitive and one would have thought that she would have a bit more sensitivity towards women who made such choices!


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Sorry ladies but how can we attack the woman for her personal feelings?  It not like she doesn't know how it feels to be in our situation is it? Surely if that is her heartfelt opinion of DE then she should be allowed to say it?  We don't have to agree with her opinions but I do feel it's unfair to call her thoughtless or describe her comments as unforgiveable.  She clearly hasn't been able to forgive herself for being unable to have children, so I really think it's a bit much for all of us to jump on the bandwagon and make her feel even worse than she obviously already does.

She's clearly still feeling bitter about her condition and hasn't been as fortunate as many of us have to be able to come to terms with it.  So I don't feel angry with her or blame her for what she's feeling. I just feel sad for her that she hasn't been able to move on and that she wasn't able to see the possibilities for happiness that DE or adoption could bring her.

Surely we, of all people, should be able to understand that and rather than attack her, sympathise with her?

Love to all

Nix
xxx


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

I was really sympathetic up until the point where she made the scathing comments about DE. of course she has the right to an opinion but I also think she has been really thoughtless to say stuff like that. People will read that stuff as it is in a national newspaper and go on to believe that women who have children through Donor eggs arent really mummies.......what absolute B*******! she is entitled to her opinion but i'm entitled to say that her remarks are offensive.
I think most women who are childless mourn the fact that their gene pool will not continue.However, being a mother is surely about so much more! the chance to love and nurture plus the opportunity to do all those things she feels she is missing out on..I dont believe that would be any different whether it was with your bio child/an adopted child/or a child born through DE.
Shame she is so narrow minded  
Pobby


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## CherryWoo (Nov 1, 2007)

I agree with a lot of you ladies. I was really enjoying the article until I read those comments. I found them very hurtful. I experienced early menopause in my 20s meaning my only options are DE IVF or adoption- I can never be a biological parent. I don't think DNA (a collection of chemicals) makes you a Mum- it's your love for your child. I don't like to think that people would read this & think that people like me can never be a 'real Mum'. Look at all the biological parents out there who neglect & abuse their children- to me they are not real parents, not someone like me who will worship any LO I am blessed enough to parent.
Jen xo
PS- Half of the celebs she was mentioning have most likely had DE IVF to be truthful, especially with all the twins about.


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Pobby

I agree I think she is very narrow-minded and I think that's possibly because she's uninformed or badly informed about the alternatives available to her and she is in a very negative and bitter frame of mind. And of _course _ it is totally normal that anyone who has really thought the whole DE/adoption thing through, or indeed has been through it would find her remarks _extremely _ offensive. In fact, I never said they weren't offensive! But it is when words like "unforgiveable" are being bandied around that I feel the need to speak out.

This woman, like many of us, has already been condemned to a life without biological children and has apparently condemned herself to a life with no children at all because of her skewed views on adoption and DE. Hasn't she been punished enough without us all jumping down her throat too...?

That's all I was trying to say.


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## Tottie (Aug 10, 2006)

Speaking as someone who is delightedly expecting a baby from egg donation, I think that in writing such an article for a national newspaper, she has a certain responsibility to represent and support fellow infertile ladies and those who are having serious problems conceiving by standing up for and promoting alternatives to conventional, straight-forward IVF treatment (such as DE/DS treatment or adoption), rather than suggesting that ladies who have DE treatment are not real mummies.  She has clearly been through a lot herself so it's all the more surprising that she should have a very small-minded idea of what it means to be a mother.

The vast majority of the general public hasn't a clue how traumatic it is to suffer infertility and so, while she is entitled to her own opinion, for her to make such blinkered, sweeping statements like that only undermines the pain that so many of us have been or are going through and only fuels potential prejudices that may affect us and our children in the future. 

Good luck to you all.

Tottie xx


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## INCONCEIVABLE (May 1, 2007)

Frankly I think everybody is entitled to their views as long as they do not hurt other people in the process.  I would say that would be a yardstick and by the sound of it she has managed to upset a few people.  It's a bit like with other things people shouldn't say but may think it.  Call it PC or whatever, but it's out of order and narrow-minded.  She is also a teacher.  What is she to think of donor-conceived kids?  ARe they a lie, too?


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Inc, I don't think she's insinuating that the children themselves are "a lie" or in anyway abnormal. She is merely talking about her opinions about having a DE child herself if that makes sense.  In my head there's a distinction but I'm probably not expressing it very well... 

And I take on board your comment about not hurting other people with our views, you are absolutely right... you can think something but it doesn't follow that it's all right to say it.  There's free speech and then there's abuse.  And OK, maybe her comments do cross the line.  But 2 wrongs don't make a right do they?

And Tottie, she's not there to "represent" us all, I don't think that's what the paper was trying to do.  She's (naively, I think) gone to a national newspaper and basically exposed feelings that would be better discussed with a counsellor and, as usual, that national newspaper has taken advantage of that to sell a few more copies.  

Which is why I think we shouldn't attack her, she's clearly got major issues that need to be addressed, and slagging her off doesn't help, does it?  I know that all of us will have read what she said and thought WTF?! But there's a reason why she's saying such things and I don't think it's fair to assume it's just because she doesn't care how hurtful they are.  Basically I think she needs counselling, not criticism and we should be getting mad at the newspaper for taking advantage of someone in that situation.


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

It's always good for us ladies to have a little debate on here Nix    
it's also good for someone to look at it from an alternative view point...I think you are being quite charitable towards her which is good cos I want to poke her in the eye with a stick!  .. only joking, maybe she is a fellow FF'er in which case she will read this and maybe rethink her views?  
failing that...........at least WE all know that when we finally have our precious babes, (and yes, I am due to have DE and maybe thats why I feel so strongly) they will be VERY much ours, whichever way they finally arrive and no-one whoever they are can tell us different!
lots of    to all of us....(even her!   ) 
Pobby xx


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## Lorna (Apr 8, 2004)

The 2 questions I always ask someone who wonders whether to use a donor, be it an egg or sperm donor are:

Is having your own biological child so important, that you are prepared to risk never having a child at all?  In this woman's case, obviously yes.

or do you want a child so badly, you are prepared to do anything to have one?  In my case yes.  Well anything legal, and morally acceptable.  I know morals are subjective, but I think DE is morally acceptable.

There isn't a right or wrong answer to the above questions, only what makes you more or less comfortable.

I do think she could have phrased things better, but on the other hand it could have been the newspaper that rewrote her words!

Lorna


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## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

I'm not going to go into too long a post here but I do want to add that I do agree with everything Nix has said about this. It seems to me that it is the author's personal perception of DE or adoption and, yes, it is a shame that she cannot see beyond the biological thing but then everyone does have their own limitations and morals for want of a better way to put it. There are, no doubt, women here on FF who would not contemplate DE or adoption and might feel slightly agrrieved if they read condemnation of what could easily be their feelings on the subject. 
It's a shame that she shared this aspect of her her personal opinions / journey in the article because she doens come across as somewhat bitter and a bit strange at the end; and it has drawn our attentions towards it rather than the main focus of the interview which is the discrimination against childless women. I think that's a very valid point and, I know before I had my DS, this was the one thing I always felt but could never really express eloquently enough. I think she's probably captured the essence of what is in the heart of every woman who wanted a child but never could. 

C~x


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2008)

This discussion has been really interesting. What seems to me is that the author expresses real pain and we can all identify with her feeling (I almost had a   here). And it's good that a national newspaper runs an article about the way childless people (not only women, my DH does get comments sometime too) are marginalised. It's very painful. It's like single women who are often marginalised, although very often they would have love to marry but it didn't happen ...
Of course, the newspaper is irresponsible, as usual, by exploiting the pain of one woman and not thinking about how many other IF people it will offend, especially those going for / having DE or adopting. I personally am thinking of both options at the moment and couldn't disagree more with the idea that only biological children "are not a lie". What about the children she cares for as a teacher? Thye are not biologically related to her but, I hope, they have her in their lives as a caring figure. She could think a bit to reflect her experience in this way ... But again I don't blame her, she's hurting, and I feel sorry for her pain.


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## titch2 (Jul 14, 2008)

Hi

Like several of you I thought parts of the article were good - but disagreed with her comments re; DE and adoption as I felt that this was too personal stuff for a national paper.

I have just started my IVF due to unexplained infertility so unlike some of you I don't have the experience of yet, needing to think about DE or adoption, however, I am adopted myself so feel that I am qualified to talk about being on the end of not having biological parents bringing me up.

As far as I am concerned my parents are the ones who brought me up, loved me and would do anything for me.  

The person who brought me into the world is just that - I have no feelings towards them and that's how I choose to live my life. I know other people like me feel differently and that's their choice - just as this is my choice.

I'm inclined to think that as ever a National paper probably took advantage of someone in a vulnerable situation and reported out of proportion the 'contentious' bit as that is what gives them a news story at the end of the day.

It's good to see others points of view on here though on what outside FF boards is the sort of thing you can't really talk about - particularly with friends and family who do have children


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

it just made me want to cry. i felt her pain and could identify with her feelings of being excluded and espeically how she said she felt she was 'defective'   

obviously i dont agree with how she worded it about DE etc but thats her opinion and DE is not for everyone. I myself would give anything to me a mother and am not against DE or adoption etc. 

xxx


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## Just a girl (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow, what an interesting discussion.  I too nearly had a cry reading it and could only imagine what it would feel like to be in her shoes knowing she would never be a mummy, but I was surprised at her egg donor comments.  
I will be donating my eggs for the first time in the very near future and truly believe that once the egg has been fertilised and the embryo has been implanted the recipient is 100% the true mummy, that baby has probably been dreamt about since before I even knew that I would be donating.  I know that I will always think about the child, but not as 'I have a child out there somewhere sort of way' but more in a curious way and wonder if they ended up with my crazy 'neither straight nor curly' hair (sorry about that!) or my straight teeth (your welcome! )  The true mummy does the hard work, the true mummy will have the very real stretch marks and dark circles under her eyes and the true mummy will nurture and love unconditionally and shape their dear little one's life.  Sorry for the soppy ending I just wanted you egg recipients ladies to know what I thought of you as a donor
x x x


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

that was a lovely way of putting things Just a girl


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## jess p (Sep 25, 2004)

I felt sorry for her and wondered if she has depression - that anger reminds me of myself when I had depression.

I don't agree with her on the donor egg/adoption fronts - I am adopted and am expecting a baby via a donor egg.  

I am also a teacher! It is a very difficult job to do when you can't have your own children - there are loads of teachers on FF and I'm sure many feel the same way.

I teach Year 1 at the mo (5 and 6 year olds) - when they tell you they love you it is heartbreaking!  I also hate the first and last days of the school year - seeing their parents fussing over them just makes me feel that I will never have that experience (hopefully, this will all change thanks to my donor!).

Having IF does exclude you from a very big club that other people can join at the drop of a hat.

It is very much like being a child with your nose pressed up against the glass of a sweet shop window - you can see what you want but you just can't have it.

I also feel very angry that my ovarian failure is not viewed as a "disability" - because that's what it is - a part of my body doesn't work properly.  I don't expect huge financial reimbursment but it would be nice to have the cost of scans or a few drugs paid for.  Hey, maybe I could even get a free parking badge!  

Anyway, I agree, the lady needs help but she is also very offensive towards adoptees/adopters and egg recipients!

Love Jess xxx


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## cherriepie (Nov 3, 2007)

I am not sure exactly how I feel about this - I am torn in two really.

I feel great compassion for her as she, like us all, feels excluded for society for one reason or another and clearly, like us all, the journey was long and hard.  Yes, she has resolved her infertility by deciding to stop treatment and neither use DE or adopt but I think those comments are insensitive to people undergoing or considering these options.  I think she is perhaps holding onto a lot of bitterness, anger and hurt and perhaps writing that article has helped her in some way (I really do hope so).

Obviously, everyone is different and everyone will come to a different conclusion about "resolving" their infertility but it was just a bit closed minded of her to make those comments about DE and adoption. 

In my opinion the definition of a mother is the person who loves, cares and nurtures a child, the person who wipes snotty noses, cleans up sick, is pee'd on and is there to pick up the pieces when things go wrong and celebrate when they go right.  The person who gives unconditional love and who gives it throughout their whole entire life, not just until they turn 16 or 18 or whatever.  It does not matter how the child is conceived and I know that every lady on here and every couple out their fighting infertility is more than capable of being that Mother or Father.

Luv and babydust!

Cherriepie

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## buster31 (Apr 14, 2008)

Nix just think you've got a hell of a big heart girl


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## Jane D (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry to be so late off the mark.  I saw this whilst at last clinic appointment.  All I can say is the author may have problems moving on.  I did not have any opinions on egg donation before December 2007.  When I found out in December that I have low ovarian reserve and that there is not much hope for a biological child, my very first thoughts went to egg donation.  After two failed IUIs, I have now started the process for DEIVF abroad.  I am sad the article is dismissive of DEIVF and adoption as I see those two processes as being so wonderful and making parenthood more widely available to people who otherwise wouldn't.  I just think the person has not tuned into the possibilites and opportunities provided by these two routes.  I would seriously doubt if they have had any counselling support.  In Uk help line were the first people to point out the possibilities of DEIVf and I am now regularly seeing a counsellor and talking things through.  

All I hope is the author can seek inner peace as soon as possible.  Help is out there.


Got to say, that newspaper is an awful publication too.
Jane
x


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