# Natural ivf cycle (ie. no drugs)



## anna37 (Sep 13, 2005)

Does anyone have any experience of this

I have found two clinics in London which do this - The Bridge Centre and Create Health.

Does anyone have any knowledge about either clinic or natural ivf??

We are thinking this may suit us as we produce so few eggs during normal ivf that it seems pointless to take the drugs when we are only getting one egg anyway

Any info would be great - thanks guys,

Anaxxx
(lots of baby dust to those starting cycles)


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## little nell (Sep 19, 2005)

Hi there Ana, 
IVF is hard enough to go through in itself but I do know what you mean having experienced it myself. My first IVF we got one egg and that was after a pretty hellish time with side effects and the "rollercoaster " of getting to each hurdle only to find I got what I got every month!! 
I read that the first IVF born, Louise Brown was born this way as they did not use drugs for hyperstimulation of the ovaries like they do now...I believe with implantation etc that chances are the same it does not however give what they call value ...it is expensive on the side of lcollecting, processing, looking after and nurturing just one egg and embie in the lab- but hey I think it is worth it if you get the BFP.

Hope that helps!


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## anna37 (Sep 13, 2005)

Thanks for replying little nell.

I have had some details from Create Health who seem to do this alot - they suggest that you do 3/4 cycles and each one has a 10% chance of working.  We are thinking of doing these quite quickly - although we have only just had our BFN from our 6th ivf.

As no drugs are involved they say you can do one after another!! Great ??  So I am having a drink tonight while I still can!!!

Would love to hear from anyone who has been down this road.

Anaxx
(Baby dust to all)


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## little nell (Sep 19, 2005)

Wow Ana, 
6 IVF's are pretty tough to get through, you are one strong lady. 
Do you mind if I ask what protocols they had you on? I am currently waiting for IVF#2 after my BFN late last month and this is the first chance to go again- they have switched me to one without down regging to see if I respond better.
Big hugs


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Anna,

I am with Create's sister clinic St.Georges house and am with Geeta, I have found her to be really lovely and friendly..... she is a great believer in doing things as 'naturally' as possible, so If you want to go down this road, you couldnt have picked a better place  

Let me know if you want to know anymore

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hello girls,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in.

I am also looking in to natural cycle ICSI and have an appt with Dr Nargund on Friday. Will keep you all posted with updates.......and looking forward to hearing yours too.

Lots of luck to you all!

Rgds
M


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## anna37 (Sep 13, 2005)

A BIG THANK YOU GUYS - really lovely to hear from two buddies (can I call you that)?

Are you doing natural cycles?
Is their a difference between St Georges and Create?  
Has she given you an idea of success rates?  
Do you know why they go to the London Fertility Clinic for EC and ET?
Did you need your FSH levels checking first?

Sorry to ask so many questions but I am on a roll!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope your both well and feeling really positive,

Ana
xxx


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## anna37 (Sep 13, 2005)

Just a note for little nell,

I have been at Care, Nottingham for 5 years with George (4 ivf and 1 fet), before that George was at Nurture, Nottingham and we started with two cycles their.  

We ended up doing short protocols but to be honest nothing seems to make me create more eggs = loads of different drugs, steroids, asprin, clexane - you name it and I've had it!!  

Our only problem is blocked tubes - DH has amazing sperm apparently!!  When I had tube unblocked we conceived straight away twice but both were eptopic and right tube was taken away 

Sorry not a great story but it's not over till the fat lady sings and I'm not singing yet!!

Ana
xxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Anna,

I am having a stimulated cycle due to my age and high FSH and small number of follicles left in ovaries, Mrs Nargund told me this would be the most cost effective and fastest route for me   She did say that she would be happy to do either IUI, let me continue trying naturally for a while longer or a natural cycle for me, but as I was concerned about money and the time frame (age) said lets go for the stimulated cycle. 

I dont believe there is a difference between create and St.Georges, its just St.Georges is slightly easier for us to get to.... Yes you have to go to LFC for EC and ET. Not sure about your FSH levels I guess it depends on when you last had them done? I had mine done prior to going so thay I had everything ready for my 1st consult with her.. the success rates are those that LFC holds unfortunately because they are not licensed for EC or ET they do not publish success rates themselves, but I do recall her saying when pushed, their rates were pretty high up there.... whether this was with natural or stimulated I cant remember I am sorry  

I hope I have helped somewhat.......... hopefully Memphis will have more for you after Friday  

And of course you can me a buddie   its nice to talk to people going to the same clinic!
Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi girls,

Hope you don't mind me joining in. This is something I am about to do also and was struggling to find anyone who has done it. Girls about to do it is almost better - as you get buddies!!

I recognise some of your names .... Hi Fidget, thanks for your IM and giving me the details of Create Health. Best of luck with your cycle in a couple of weeks.

Memphis - I think you are on the ARGC girls thread. I think we may have got our last BFN's on pretty much the same day - 19/09 for me? We must have been cycling at the same time.

I have an appointment with Mrs Nargund on the 6th. My history is I had a successful cycle on my very first IVF. I only produced 5 eggs, 3 fertilised and I had one very slow growing embryo transferred - I got a BFP, so I do feel very blessed. I have since had 3 BFN's. I have a theory that the large doses of drugs and numbers of eggs might be effecting my egg quality. Ana - my husband has also been told he has amazing sperm, so it comes down to my egg quality. I like the idea that you can do them one month after another too. It's the hanging around waiting that does my head in. I also think that I could do this 6 or 7 times for the price of one cycle at the ARGC - so it doesn't seem that bad value to me. The numbers certainly add up.

Looking forward to hearing everyone elses progress and I'll update you on the 6th.

Holly.

I have since


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hey Holly

Your welcome hun  

I think I may ask Mrs Nargund for a discount   all you lovely girls I have sent her way  

well I am just waiting for AF and then I start stabbing how lovley is that   But should be good...

Hope you are all well girls??
Debs
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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Holly - yes I'm afraid we did get our BFNs around the same time. I was following your thread. So sorry.

In my case I have never seen a BFP. We have male factor and therefore always need ICSI. My fear is that I might be told that natural cycle is not suitable for ICSI but here's hoping. I have met Geeta Nargund before as I had to see her for my NHS waitlist consultation. She is really lovely and is the only consultant so far to show real empathy for what we go through. She recommended that I go and see her privately but as I was already on the path to my second cycle at ARGC I blindly went ahead. Since then I am really disappointed with the care at ARGC, don't get me wrong as I know you can't fault the skill of Mr T (I know he's simply brilliant) but when you think of the amount of money you spend there the lack of support after a negative result is awful. My husband wrote them a letter last week requesting a quick follow up as I was in a state but there has been no response. I think they are just simply too busy to care now. It would be better for all concerned if they paced their intake.

Sorry for the rant!

Hope you are all well.

Brgds
M


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi Memphis,

I hope you do get some positive way forward on Friday. It's reassuring to hear that Geeta Nargund is at least empathic, as you say the ARGC could do with some of that. I agree that customer service has been a little lacking lately. There are certainly some horrific stories on the ARGC thread. Apparently due to the huge amount of positive press coverage they have received of late as a result of the recently published success rates, they have been inundated with new patients. I have to say, Mr T is brilliant, but there is only so much one man can do.

I will be looking forward to the outcome of your appointment on Friday. 

Debs - good luck with your cycle.

Ana - have you made a decision yet as to whether to give the Natural Cycle a go?

Holly


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi girls - hope you are all well.

Just a quick post to say that my appt with Dr Nargund has been postponed to Sunday so I'll be sure to update you then.

Take care and have a nice weekend!

M


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hello girls.

We had our consultation with Dr Nargund and I found it was really worthwhile. She took details of our fertility problems as well as the numerous ICSIs etc. Anyway she was great and to summarise, she felt I had been pumped up with too many drugs and had had far too much stimulation.

She also went back to the beginning of our probs and DH has an appt with her husband who is a Urologist/Andrologist. She felt we had been steered into treatment without really getting to the route of DHs problem. With me she wants to do an inhibin B and a scan to see if my ovaries actually have enough eggs etc. (this was all abit complex but I'm all for getting some answers). She said that she would def consider me for a natural cycle but that we must get all my bloods/scans sorted first. She has a belief that high doses of stims produce weak eggs (and can even damage the rest of the eggs in the ovaries - yikes!). This makes perfect sense to me and as she said - the naturally selected follicle is probably ultimately the best one.

It was so nice to finally have someone treating us as a couple and not as a number. Having spoken to her, it hit me how much of a production line I have been on at the ARGC and it's a relief to speak to a consultant who isn't rushing around like a headless chicken.

Holly - good luck for tomorrow - looking forward to your update - and, of course, updates from the rest of you lovely girls.

best wishes
M


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Ohh Memphis,

so pleased it went well for you, I cant advocate Mrs Nargund enough, she is an amazing lady, her staff are all fantastic too and its such a relief to be seen as a person and not a number!! thats why we chose that clinic over the others we had visited We are due to start this coming weekend... I have to wait for the witch to turn up and then its all go........... am so excited now  

I hope everyone else is ok??

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Fidget,

Yes I totoally agree that's it's Mrs Nargund's holistic and caring approach that wins you over. And she also happens to spend alot of time doing more research - a very intelligent lady.

I'm so pleased that you're about to start and looking forward to following your progress. Good luck with it all.

We saw her at the Raynes Park clinic as we live in Wimbledon - but did you say you go to St Georges?

Regards to all!


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi ,

yes we go to St.Georges house Clinic in Raynes park, its a bit of a hop up the A3 but ohh so worth it  

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi girls  

Just saying hello and waitinf impatiently for your updates.

Take care!!


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi girls,

Sorry I've been a bit illusive for the past week but we moved house last Friday so I have been very busy - and we haven't had an internet connection.

I had my appointment with Geeta Nargund yesterday, and as you say Memphis, I found it very informative and confirmed some suspicions I had in relation to high doses of drugs. She was so down to earth and very critical of some of the protocols out there. We don't have any MF problems so I went along on my own. I am unexplained, apart from having some endometriosis and she did express concern at how quickly I was pushed down the IVF route before other alternatives were investigated.

Like you Memphis I am having the MOT - starting next cycle - which should be mid to end of this month. At the end of that she will give me a realistic percentage chance for natural cycle or minimal stimulation ivf. Then it is my decision whether I am prepared to go forward with it. She says she will be brutally honest with me in terms of my chances, which is what I need at this stage. 

Hope the   arrives soon Debs so you can get going.

All the best,

Holly


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Holly,

so glad it went well for you after all the searching you have done.. I am sooo glad I came across their website all that time ago   

She was great with us and said she would be happy to let us continue ttc naturally or do IUI or go down the route of IVF, naturally or stimulated, BUT took into consideration financial and time concerns said stimulated was probably our better option... I trust her sooooo much after the treatment I have had in the past from some NHS consultants she is like a breath of fresh air!!!

I hope everyone gets good results from their HyCosy's etc

Debs
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## Lol (May 19, 2004)

Hi Memphis

Hope you don’t mind me IMing you.  We are in a similar situation to you and I was interested to see you had been to see Geeta.  We have had two fails at the ARGC.  Lots of immature eggs and poor fertilization.  I am on high doses of drugs and have been told I have immune issues but our initial diagnosis was male factor.  

I was going to go and see Geeta but figured that with male factor they wouldn’t be able to do natural cycle ICSI.  Was she quite promising when you met with her about being able to get fertilization on the one or two eggs you produce on natural cycle?  

I am reluctant to go back to ARGC as have seen lots of girls with a poor response taking lots of drugs but still getting a fail and can see it taking me tons of attempts before I get lucky.  I do agree that maybe the drugs are to blame rather than the male factor but was interested in finding out what Geeta said.  

I have one NHS attempt and then am thinking of either going down the natural route or going to the US where they are more focused on egg quality.  

Best of luck with your next cycle.

Laurenx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Lauren,

No problem at all and I am happy to be as much help as I can. You seem to have pretty much the same profile as us and I am also hoping for natural followed by the US.

Dr Nargund tends to go back to the beginning and will probably see what she can do for both of you in terms of any possibility of improving sperm followed by tests on you to see where you are with egg production. She certainly didn't rule out ICSI but for us she will make an assessment when all of our tests are done. It may be that it's not for us but we will find out in time.

Hope this helps.


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi Lauren, Holly, Debs.............and anyone else.............

Just posted on the other thread - didn't realise there was this one going!  Have been pretty bad at keeping up dated with everything.  I am going to St Georges clinic in Raynes Park under Geeta Nargund and I cannot praise her enough.  I have never met another consultant who is so empathetic and kind and interested in me as a person and us as a couple.  

Hopefully last scan today before trigger and then in on Monday for ec.  She has told me that she does not have an ICSI baby yet but we have agreed that if we are in any doubt on the day with DH's fellas, we will opt for ICSI.  I hope we can get the result we all want and then she would have an ICSI baby!!!!

Like with so many others, my body did not respond to drugs and from what my TCM lady said, probably made things worse........she said "your body cannot do what it is supposed to and the drugs are asking your body to do lots more of what it can't do".  All the research I have done about egg quality and poor responders makes me believe that the massive doses I had last time were counterproductive.

This time, it has been so chilled, easy, no side effects, no worrying.  I felt like such a failure at not being able to produce lots of eggs, now I feel fantastic that I have a nice juicy follie and I made it all myself!!!!!  What a turnaround.............!

Think of this approach as a series of treatments month after month.  We spent £5k on the last go at the Bridge and did not get anything to go back.  We can have 4/5 goes at this for the same price!  I was told by all the other consultants (Bridge, CRM etc) that my eggs were knackered and that I should consider donor..............Geeta by comparison has told me my ovarian volume is good, reserve is good, blood flow is good..........lets hope it keeps on going that way.

I truly wish you all the best and will keep you posted.  Can't tell you what a difference finding Geeta and this approach has made.

Lots and lots of love
Martha xxxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Ohhhh Martha 

Sweetheart really pleased for you, And so glad its all going along swimmingly,      lots of positive thoughts for you hunni,

My AF turned up so we start stabbing tomorrow  

I hope everyone else is doing ok?

Debs
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## Teoroy (Oct 1, 2004)

Hi girls. I have asked several times in this forum about the natural cycle but no one seemed to be doing it, so I am very happy that finally there is a bunch of people going to give it a try. I am in a period of waiting for NHS funding while trying very hard naturally. (I've got one tube with clubbed end). But anyway I was looking into this possibility a year ago.I'd like to ask you to keep us informed how are the things going on with your treatment and I am also curious about the overall price of the treatment with Dr.Geeta. Thank you.


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi girls - hope you are all doing great.

Martha it's so good to hear from someone who's stared the natural cycle. I am not surprised that you're finding the cycle much less stressful I'm keeping everything crossed for you with your collection, fertilisation etc. Keep us posted. I totally agree with in terms of Geeta's attitude, it's like a breath of fresh air isn't it!

Debs thinking of you and hope everything goes smoothly.

Good luck everyone else!


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi everyone........quick update (cos I am at work!)

Dominant follie on Saturday was only 15mm so we provisionally said EC would be Wednesday.  Had to go for another scan up in London (where I work) yesterday.  Seems like the growth spurt has slowed down.  Follie was only 16.5 yesterday so we have decided to give it another day to make sure it goes over 17mm before we trigger it.  Any way the upshot is that I am booked in for EC on Thursday morning and have agreed with Geeta that if DH's fellas are in any doubt, we will do ICSI.  Lauren - we hve the same sort of issue and I know that Geeta does not "have an ICSI baby" to show me but we got 100% fertilisation with 2 eggs before so why not with 1.  Her hubby is a specialist, I think in male factor issues so you would be with a good team and they do like to look at you together (how refreshing!!!)

Keeping everything crossed and will keep you posted on progress.  This is  only the first time and we cannot expect too much but I know that I am not knackering my ovaries with stimming drugs (been drug free for a year now!!!!!) because I think I responded badly to them before.

I am so pleased that there are others interested in this approach.  If only I produced loads of eggs, it would be worth it but seems like the best way forwards for us given past experience.

Ana - you asked quite a few questions at the beginning.......and Teoroy...prices are much lower £970 for natural cycle IVF and £1370 for ICSI.  CreateHealth and St Georges are for all intents and purposes the same.  Professor Robert Campbell and Geeta work at both places doing a wide variety of things (3D baby scans etc).  Geeta has the great interest in the natural cycle and advocates it.  She has written loads of papers and shown that a series of natural cycles can statistically be as effective (cost and outcome) as a single cycle of normal stimulated IVF.  There are no lab facilities at either place for egg collection or embryo transfer but the link up to the London Fertility Centre gives you a very good combination.  If my memory serves me well, Professor Craft at LFC was involved in the ICSI research originally and so where better to go!  The website is very informative and they will send you info out if you request it.

I am trying to establish exactly what will happen on Thursday - whether I will be sedated or not...........I was told originally that they do not sedate you (shame really - I love the sleep!!!) because they are only going in to get 1 egg.  Will find out tonight and let you know.

Good luck to everyone (Memphis, Lauren, Teoroy, Ana, Holly ) and Debs - so pleased you can get going on the stimming!!!!!  Keeping everything crossed for you.


Lots of love 
Martha xxx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Good to hear you are almost there Martha. I will be following your progress with great interest.

Holly


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## sculley (Aug 5, 2005)

Dear all, hope you dont mind me butting in.........this thread sounds interesting.  How does it work.  Can someone explain the process to me please?  And i dont live too far from Raynes Park too...

I am nearing the end of my first IVF 'short' protocol - so have been stuffed full of drugs for nearly two weeks now (and i mean stuffed).  Been feeling rough for the last few days.  My ovaries have been 'slow learners' but feel like cricket ball.  I am producing follies, although very slowly.

I think if this cycle does not work (thats not being very positive is it) I will find out some more about the natural ivf process.  I really dont think i could go through another cycle like this!

Any info, greatfuly received!!!!

sculley


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Sculley - great minds think alike ! I have been reading this thread and am v interested in not taking the high doses for little harvest. I found their website http://www.createhealth.org/male.html , but don't know any more than what I have read on here and on the site.

P.S. - I am not stalking you, honest !


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi Sculley and Lorri

Boy - this thread is really gathering pace now!  Lorri -  I see you were in yesterday for EC....how did you do Who knows, this could be the one!!!  Sculley - whereabouts are you in your tx..........again - this could be the one!

Basic info....natural cycle IVF in its purest form is taking the natural egg (no stimming drugs) when it is ready and fertilising it.  The main difference is you have much lower chances ('cos there is only one - usually) however the upside is that you can do it month after month because there are no drugs and the price is not dissimilar to IUI double basting.

I was looking for an approach for our combination of probs.........MF plus unknown with me and having never responded well to stims.  No-one seemed interested.........have you considered donor eggs, your ovaries and eggs are knackered etc etc.  Then I stumbled across CreateHealth and have not looked back.  At last, someone who advocates IVF with your own egg means it is worth it for us and we overcome the MF issues. IUI wouldnot have been an option and I am still convinced that there are hormonal probs with me somewhere along the line that mess up my ovulation (to late/too mature not sure).  At least this way, if we get an egg from the fat follie, they can have a look at it and we find out more.

Sorry for the rant but this approach is what I have been looking for (not hard enough obviously!!).  The thing I keep coming back to is the fact that we have got 2 eggs and both fertilised.  They were both top grade embies as well...................

Oh well.........rant over......am feeling positive and I would just LOVE for it to work.......could announce 12 weeks at Christmas!  OMG.  Must stop dreaming!!!!!

Love and best wishes to you all.

Martha xxxxx


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Hi Martha,
thanks for responding. EC did not go well at all, as I ovulated early and got only 2 eggs, which luckily did fertilise, and I am awaiting dividing news very nervously. I was on top dose of drugs and paid an absolute fortune for little gain, which is why I read this thread with interest. The drugs really messed me up this time, as I felt constantly nauseous and tired. Maybe if this tx fails for me, at whatever stage, natural may very well be an interesting option.  My problem is solely MF (apart from my age of course !) Sculley is my cycle buddy.

It sounds like the ET is like having an FET without the thaw, and FET's can be so successful as there are no stim drugs in your system.

Where are you in your tx ?  I know what you mean about the joy of announcing pg after 12 weeks at work. It is what I dream about too.

Good luck and hopefully this is the one for you too   

Lx


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## sculley (Aug 5, 2005)

Lorri / Martha - and all on this thread.

Thanks for the info - it definitely appeals to me!  I am on day 13 of stimming, so EC soon (not soon enough for my liking).  Have scan today, Lorri, so am praying for some good news!  Feeling a little better today   (Lorri is my cycle buddie but is a few days ahead of me....and the gap is growing!!!)

I am definitely going to have a look into this, as i can not do this drug induced state again.

Will read the info on the site after i know the situation with this cycle, not going to tempt fate too much

Talk soon
Sculley


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Morning Girls,

WOW I am so pleased this thread has grown so much.......... I just had a peek back and realised its not the one that Holly started but hey ho............ 

Although I am doing stimulated IVF with Geeta, I can not recommend her highly enough, she is the most amazing understanding consultant I have ever met!!  the whole idea of natural IVF should be sold throughout the country as its got to be a good thing!! We had decided to go through stimulated due to my age and FSH etc etc but Getta looks at ALL the options suitable for you and suggests the bets one for you as a couple.. I am so glad I choose her over the other clinics we saw... And I only found them after looking for natural cycle IVF for Holly    as St.Georges only opened up in March of this year it was a real find!!!

I hope everyone is going ok and I so hope to hear some good news on this thread in the not to distant future!

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

I can't believe the thread is provoking so much interest either. I think there is a real appetite out there for an alternative to the punishing schedule of IVF. And this could be it. I'm really looking forward to getting an opinion from Geeta on my chances and hopefully giving the natural cycle or the low dose stims a go.

Hi Lorri - I'm another ARGC girl. I've been following your story on the ARGC girls thread. Good news about your 2 embies. Sounds like they are little fighters. I had something similar happen in August 2004, I ovulated early and lost all my eggs. 

Martha - I guess you triggered last night. Good luck with EC tomorrow. I will be dying to hear your news.

Hello to Memphis, Debs, Teoroy and Sculley......

Holly


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi everyone.

EC booked for Thursday morning so triggered last night.  Ouch......this one always hurts!!!

All set and getting quite excited but know I need to calm down and be realistic!!!!!

Will keep you all posted.  It is so lovely to have you guys to share it with..........people who really understand!

Lots of love
Martha xxx


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## Teoroy (Oct 1, 2004)

Could you please, girls, tell me how much does a natural cycle with Dr. Geeta cost ?
As far as I know this is not the only clinic in th UK doing it. Have you read her article on the topis?


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi girls,

Martha, as you know we're keeping everything crossed for you. It's great that you're excited and it's certainly better than obsessing over egg quantities etc. Do you know whether you'll be sedated yet? I must admit, 1 egg or not, I don't fancy ever being awake through EC!!  Good luck for tomorrow!

Teoroy - I'm not sure about other centres that take this approach but I guess there must be some. As for Create I think their costs for a natural cycle are between £1000 and £1300 depending on whether you have IVF or ICSI.

We are seeing Mr Nargund on Friday (provided that DHs bloods are all back). I'm really glad we're seeing him but I'm not holding out too much hope that they will actually be able to do much for him. Still at least we'll have finally discussed things with a proper Urologist and go forward armed with as much info as poss.

Hi to you all - wow I can't believe that this thread has only just taken off like this........or could it be that there are now a whole bunch of disillusioned IVFers out there. . Glad to have found you all though!!

Take care!


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Ohhh yes Martha do tell whether they use sedation or not I am scared stiff (assuming I get that far)

Hope everyone else is ok

Debs
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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Hi
Holly - I recall your recent BFN, but hadn't realised you lost all your eggs in August ! Did you go again straight away ?  Sounds like it happens more often than the clinics let on. I have started a "vote" on it in the voting room as I thought it would be interesting to see how often it happens.

Martha - best of luck for EC tomorrow. 

I mentioned this topic to dh last night, and he was very interested. He hates me taking all the drugs, especially as the dose is so high, and they are so expensive, and with only 2 eggs to show for it ! So if this doesn't work, I may be trundling along to see Geeta in the New Year.

Lx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi Lorri,

It was August 2004 it happened to me, so over a year ago. I was with Guys at the time and they were very unhelpful. They suggested that I probably didn't have any eggs to begin with and that I should move on to donor eggs. That was when I made the switch to the ARGC and despite 2 BFN's I have managed to generate 13 and 10 eggs respectively - so there were some there after all. I do know of one other girl who posts on the ARGC who had this happen to her, and she got a BFP on her next cycle, so a happy ending. I will go and vote on your poll straight away. Wishing you the best of luck with your ET.

Holly


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Holly,
Doh ! August 2004 - I should have realised that ! Brain is in neutral again ! I can't believe Guys blamed you! Just as well you moved away from them.  Hopefully you will be 3rd time lucky with since leaving them, whether you decide ARGC or Create Health.  I will follow your progress with interest, if thats OK. 

The lady in question IM'd me, which was lovely of her. Everyone has been so great and it is surprisingly common ! 

Lx


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi everyone.

Thought I would drop in and give you the update.  EC this morning was really straightforward.  Arrived at 9.30, they took blood pressure and weight and checked on time of trigger etc as normal.  DH did his "bit" at 10.00 ish.  I went in about 10.15.  What a hoot!  The team were great.  They scanned me first before putting me under (bit riskier with just 1) - thought this was a great idea......they never did that before at my previous clinic.  Nice snooze and then I woke up.  Into "recovery" and found out that they had got the egg but it was small and probably immature.  However we have looked at this go as a dummy run to find out more about what is going on.  Rellay lovely doc came and explained everything and the best news is that DH's sample has really improved..........12m count, 80% abnormal (85-90 is ususally the ICSI route) and good motility..........was woozy so nothing else sunk in.  Basically good enough for IVF!  What a first.............we have been told before that we were stuffed so two fingers up to all the experts we have seen before!!!!

Anyways, good job because they did not want to do ICSI on the little egg because it would almost certainly damage it.  Have called and confirmed that they have put it all together so all we can do is wait and see.  I am not holding out much hope but we have learned so much and I can't tell you how exciting it is to have "options".  I have been told by three previous clinics to consider donor eggs and that we are wasting our time................just goes to show how second (third or fourth) opinions are worth seeking.

Called St Georges and they are really pleased with the feedback.  We are not going to be able to do November (assuming this doesn't work & I am being realistic) and may do a really gentle stimming cycle in December.  I have more antral folicles on a natural cycle than I have ever seen before when stimming.  If I can bring 2, 3 or even 4 of them on, we would have a little more to play with.  

I think my eggs need a bit of help but they do not need drowning..........last year I was on 6 amps of menopur a day...........no wonder my body needed a break.

Must stop rambling...........to cut a long story short, we left at 11.30.  2 hours start to finish.  Hardly any pain (little bit crampy) - have the lovely pessary up the *** and it feels yuk!

Will keep you posted.  This has to be the most positive experience and feeling I have had in the last 2 years we have been IVF'ing.  What a change.


Hope Lorri's ET went okay.

Lots of love 
Martha xxxxxxx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Martha - thanks for the lovely newsy update, despite you being a bit woosey.

I'm so glad you had such a positive experience, it will be so good to get some information regarding your eggs. 

Did Geeta monitor you for the month prior to this cycle and give you an indiciation of ovarian reserve/egg quality and therefore your % chance of success?

Good luck with the next stage - I'll be logging in regularily to hear about your little egg   

Rest up and take care,

Holly


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi Holly.  

Think I need to go to bed!  I have just read my burble!!!!!!!!!  Must be the sedative!!!  

I first saw Geeta in August and she did a doppler scan at the beginning of my cycle (4 or 5 or something).  Good blood flow, ovarian size, antral follies etc.  I then went at the end of September for a pre-IVF scan and saw that there was a corpus luteum and then this cycle I was scanned on day 5, 7, 9 and 11.  All the indicators were good but they can only ever assess egg quality when they get them out and have a look and can only guess before then.

I have to say I think that all the statistics are so misleading - one consultant said we had a 1-3% chance of conceiving naturally..........how did he pull that figure out of the air!!! 

There was only one follie that looked big enough to contain an egg and it did but it is small so all we can do is wait and see.

Just hope Edna (the egg) is getting on well with the fellas!!!!

Take care
Love Martha xxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Way to go Martha hunni 

     well done on growing your little eggie Hunni

Keeping you in my thoughts sweetie
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Thanks for all the info Martha. Lots of    for Edna - like the name!


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Martha - your post (not that burbling) made me smile, its great that you had such a positive experience. DH and I are really intrigued by this natural IVF, our only issue is that we need icsi as I don't think his swimmers have any motility ! I am surprised more clinics don't scan before they put you under, makes sense ! At least you have tons more info for another try. Hopefully you won't need it  

My ET went smoothly thanks, 2 embies, 1 top grade 8 cell, but the other was still only 2, but its better than nothing. Now just the 2ww to contend with. 

Lx


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Lorri - good luck with the 2WW. My DD is living proof that you only need 1, she was a 4 cell embryo on a day 3 transfer - so I wasn't given much hope. With an 8 cell you have such a good chance. Take care and lots of rest 

Holly xx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hey Martha,

Keeping everything crossed for you. The whole thing sounds much less stressful than the conventional route and from what you say, the staff at LFC seem just as nice as at St. Georges. That makes all the difference doesn't it? So hoping that your little egg is the miracle one but as you say it's all about gathering data - and gentle stimming sounds good too for the next cycle.

Thanks for being so informative on everything as you must have been shattered yesterday. 

Hope you're taking it easy. 

Regards to everyone else


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Girls,

Hope your all doing ok...

Martha hope its all going well still sweetheart...

I am at St.Georges this morning for my first scan.......... am on eggshells that its all working and my pain is follies growing and not cysts like someone said it could be  

Love and hugs
Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

All the best for your scan Fid get 

Let us know - we'll be rooting for you!!


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Sorry about that Debs - was trying to get a good luck smiley up for you!


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Thats ok hunni...........my fingers often make mistakes


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Good luck Debs -  the pain is bound to be follies, it's a good sign   

You could do without some suggestions like cysts  

Hope your news is good today Martha   

Holly


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Holly 

your telling me, I wasnt too impressed tbh...... 

anyway the news is............. 6 juicy follies on each side way to go me   I still hate the dildo cam and especially as they were all running round like headless chickens today   they had the health commission inspectors in today.. even the prof was there   was nice to see him though.............

anyway best get on

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Debs - that's great news, well done! 

You might have already told everyone but is this your first cycle? What level of stims are you on?

Anyway - keep going and growing - did you see Geeta today?


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Way to go Debs..........that sounds excellent!!!  lets hope they all keep on growing nicely.  You should have lost to choose from!  What dose are you on  When I spoke to them yesterday they told me they had the inspectors coming in!!!  Prof is lovely as well isn't he.

Hi everyone - not good news from me I am afraid.  Edna disintegrated overnight.......kind of what we expected but you still have that little glimmer of hope.  Still, onwards and upwards.  It has been really exciting and I am so glad to be back on the "rollercoaster" again.  I have found that it has been such a positive experience and we have learned so much from it.  Still haven't got to the bottom of what my problem is but I think we are getting there.  Really wish we could go again in November but we are away right at the crucial moment so that is a pain.  Mind you - with DH's improvements, who knows, a miracle could happen!  Yeah right but can't stop dreaming!!!!

take care of you all............will still stay logged in here to check on progress.

Lots of love 
Martha xxxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

hi

Yes its my 1st cycle, all very exciting  

I am on .5 buserelin and 300 puregon jabs am rapidly getting over needle fears in this house  . yes I saw Geeta, she is my Cons so I assume I will see her throughout she is so fab 

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ohhh Martha Hun sorry to hear about Edna  

i am in chat if anyone wants a gossip


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Sorry to hear about your little egg Martha - but with your brilliant attitude I'm sure you're getting closer and closer. Good on you!


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Martha - I hope you are doing ok. Will you have a follow up with Geeta to find out more info on your little egg and what it means for future treatments?

Debs - hope your follies are still growing nicely and you will have a good crop of eggs.

Well I'm off on my monitoring cycle - I have a scan booked for Thursday which will be day 4, and I hope to get away this afternoon for my blood tests - if not tomorrow. Can't wait for Geeta's prognosis.

Hope everyone else is well,

Holly


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Hi everyone.......

Good luck Holly - it is good to get "back on the horse" again after your disappointment and I think that you will find that Geeta is as lovely as everyone has already said.

Looking forward to your update Debs and that all your follies are growing well. 

I am trying to work out if we could go again in November again - I am so impatient, I do not want to wait until December!!!! 

Take care of yourselves and speak soon................

Lots of love
Martha xxxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Girls I am back from my second scan and they are growing nicely   All looks set foe EC on Friday...

I was also telling geeta about the lovely forum and have a feeling she may come and have a sneaky peak  

Hope you are all well and good luck Holly 

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Well Girls I am off for EC tomorrow and worrying quite what I may say under sedation    

Holly I hope yr scans went ok hun and that your all set to proceed.........

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi ladies, 

hope you are all well. I have been reading this thread with interest and wonder if any of you may have any thoughts...

Do you think I would be suitable for treatment from Geeta?

I've just had a failed cycle of ICSI with assited hatching at ARGC. My eggs had hard/thick shells.
It was my first go, so I don't know if my eggs are always going to be like this. DH's sperm is fine.
we now have to decide our next step and are considering all options. 
Do you know if she's ever treated anyone with similar problems?

Any thoughts much appreciated,

Lisa.


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Lisa,

I would say it's always worth talking to a consultant as you'll get another opinion on things. I'm afraid I don't know much about hard shells and as you say it might be a one off. If I were you I would get an answer out of the ARGC as to whether this is a permanent thing with your eggs or just a condition of this particular batch. Once you are armed with that info then it's certainly worth talking to Geeta as she will give you an honest prognosis. Good luck!

Now for my update.

We met with Mr Nargund who is every bit as nice as his wife. As I supected there is not much that can be done on the male side but it was good to get some proper info on the subject. We then had our follow-up at the ARGC (4 weeks after the failed cycle ) and it was as expected. No real answers, they reckon it was just bad luck. They said they don't expect to see any improvement in our fertilisation report and that we were lucky to get 2 good embies with our poor track record. All in all it was disappointing and the doc kept skirting around the issue of the massive drug doses I was on. He said that it could have caused poor egg quality but then I got two embryos which was better than in the past. Anyway, I walked away feeling like I could close that door and was so glad to have found Geeta. The doc was trying to be nice but I still felt he was cold, hard-edged and money-led. He certainly wasn't interested in trying a different protocol. So it's goodbye from me.

I have felt so drained and emotional. I think having the two appts back to back and having to listen to all that negative info has hit us both hard  . Still, onwards and upwards!!

Fidget - good to herar your news and good luck with EC - you'll be fine as it's the best bit where you actually get to have some rest!

Holly - hope your monitoring goes well. I am just waiting for AF and then I'll be on your heels!!

Martha - hope you get to go in Nov. Good luck!

Best wishes to everyone else!


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi Memphis,

sorry you feel so drained at the moment. I completely understand. This is all so demanding emotionally.

Our follow up was yesterday, also 4 weeks after a failed cycle. 
Like you, we were told it could have just been bad luck and that our treatment probably wouldn't be changed next time. They can't tell me if my eggs will have the hard shells next time, it's impossible to know.
There was also the emphasis on the fact the two embryos put back were excellent (despite the shells), so we left kind of non the wiser. 
The one thing he did mention is that he thinks it's unlikey to be immune issues in our case as my NKs were so low. They still gave me IVIG though...


Anyway, I'm glad you feel you have some 'closure ' with ARGC and feel happy moving on with Geeta.

Wishing you lots of luck,

Lisa.


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi Memphis/Lisa

I'm not that encouraged by your reports of the followups. I have mine next Friday - which will be almost 6 weeks after my failed cycle. I was hoping for something better than "bad luck". That's what I got the last time. I will push on the question of high doses of drugs effecting egg quality also and see what answer I get.

Lisa - I think it is definitely worth a chat with Geeta just to see what she would recommend.

I had my scan yesterday and the results of my FSH and E2. Both bloods perfect, and the scan shows a good number of anthral follicles. I have another scan next Thursday. My problem is that I know I will come out of this with top results - I always do. This will be my 4th monitored cycle,  by a fourth consultant, and at the end of it they say, great news everything looks perfect. But why can't I get pregnant   The only new test I am having this time is the HibinB - so maybe that might throw some light on it.

Good to know you won't be far behind me Memphis.

Martha - I'm hoping to have a go in November if this monitoring cycle goes ok. We could be natural cycle buddies!

Have a great weekend,

Holly.


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Holly,
I would be very interested to know what they say about quality and high doses (I was on 600 this time). My followup wasn't great either - a bit rushed, so make sure you get all your questions answered as I went away thinking, "hmmm - none the wiser !" and wish I had been more pushy. Good luck with that and your hibinB.  I will watch your progress and news with interest. Well done on your perfect bloods and scan !

Lx


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi Holly,

I'm glad your results so far have been good. I can understand your frustration though, to be told everything is as it should be, but not to be able to get pregnant must be pretty soul destroying.
Hopefully you'll get some answers from the HibibB test - good luck.

I actually called the ARGC this morning and told them I wasn't satisfied with my follow-up and would it be possible to speak to Mr T himself. They said they'd get back to me, so we'll see.

I just don't know what to do. Do we go for another expensive cycle with ARGC and just hope we have 'better luck' this time? Or do we go somewhere else, where our funds will stretch further, but then where

Anyhow, I hope your follow up is more productive than ours. Be forceful, I wish I had been more persistant now.

Lots of love,
Lisa.


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## anna37 (Sep 13, 2005)

Fantastic........   I am really pleased I started this tread, so many people with so much info, thanks guys.....

Unfortunately when we got the info from greeta we realised that it would not be possible to be coming down to london  (from Warwickshire) every week for the next four months!!!

SOOOOOOOOOO (after loads of phone calls) I think I have found a consultant up here who does Natural IVF - we are going to see him on 10th November and I am praying that he will do the natural ivf with us and that it is something he does on a regular basis.

If not then I think we will have to look at tubal surgery - which on one tube cuts down our chances considerably.  

Thanks for being hear - I couldnt beleive the number of posts,
 
Ana
xxx (baby dust to everyone).


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## Teoroy (Oct 1, 2004)

Hello ladies. May I ask you a favor? Could you please ask Dr. Geeta if the damage caused by stimulation of the eggs is permanent? Are their quality altered permanently if you've had several IVF-s? Thanks a ton! if you know the answer, please tell me.

Thank you.


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## Abby Carter (Sep 28, 2004)

Hello there, I'm very interested to read this. I was on the highest dose of Menogon for my 1st IVF cycle back in March. When we had our baseline scan and bloods, my hormone levels 'couldn't have been better' in the consultant's words. Now I find my FSH has shot up and my ovarian reserve is greatly diminished, but I don't see how it can be if everything was so good so recently. 

I know there's still a lot they're finding out about IVF, but I can't help thinking that all the drugs I've taken (I had 3 IUIs with superovulation before the IVF) have ended up making things much worse. Can anyone shed any light on it? 

Thanks,
Abby


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## Lol (May 19, 2004)

Hi Girls

Am still considering this and will hopefully book a consultation soon but am still a bit worried about the fact we are male factor and therefore may not get our one egg fertilized even through ICSI but it would be interesting to see if when left to my own devices my eggs are any good.

Just wanted to post again to say that I agree the follow-ups at ARGC have been awful recently.  I got really upset after mine and asked to speak to Mr T by phone as I had questions that clearly could only be answered by him and was also told it was unlikely but they would find out and get back to me.  No call!  I am giving up on them for the moment.  Lisa, in answer to your question of what is the alternative? I think it is worth giving natural a go (you could have ICSI to get through the shells).  I think the daily monitoring at ARGC is great but it pushes the cost up by between 500 and 1000 per cycle and while it helps the OHSS girls I think it fails a lot of us poor responders.  I think a few good eggs rather than lots that have been given too many drugs is the approach I want to try on my NHS go as there seems to be a lot of people who have got a BFP from fewer eggs at a less successful clinic but when they go to ARGC they take more drugs, get a few more eggs but get a BFN.  Then I will try natural and if that doesn’t work then I am seriously considering America.  It costs about the same as ARGC (apart from getting there and accommodation) and I think that the respect for the patient and quality of care is a lot better.  Mentally I will find it hard to go back to ARGC I think.  However, in a few months I might feel better and also have never been anywhere else so might be horrified by the standards at another clinic!  

Abby, there is some stuff on this on the 'Should I start another ICSI?' thread on the ICSI board which might help.  My FSH jumped quite alot between my two txs so there may be something in this idea.


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Lol,
I too have had no call back!

However, I'm still undecided about what step to take next.
Part of me want's to give ARGC another go - if on my next cycle, I manage to get good eggs, I think I'd want to see what the ARGC can do with them, so to speak. But what if my eggs are hard again?
It's proving a very difficult decision to make. I know Geeta hasn't had an ICSI baby yet and if my shells are a problem, then we'd need ICSI.
As you can probably gather, I'm still very confused about it all.

If I do go with ARGC again, it won't be till after xmas though, so perhaps I could fit in a consultation with Geeta....


Lisa.


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## Lol (May 19, 2004)

Hi Lisa

Yes, agree it is worth giving it another go, I think I am just feeling negative as having tried both protocols and different drugs I still didn't get great results but I would not say this is down to ARGC in any way as they really try their best to make it work.  Everyone is different and you may well find that you will respond brilliantly next time, lots of people get pg on their 2nd go as the first is trial and error.

My other reason for not going back for a few months is that I am starting to feel a bit phobic about the place and dread going in there and feel that if I am highly stressed it is not going to help my cycle and everyone seems to really rate Geeta's bedside manner.  With time I might feel better but want to explore other options first and have something to compare it to.  If I end up having to have lots of goes and it is just down to luck whether we get the right one I would rather do it more cheaply and with less drugs. Equally I might find that I need lots of drugs so will go back to ARGC.

It is so difficult to decide what to do isn't it?

Lolx


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

It ceratinly is difficult, Lol, it's almost the hardest bit as it's such a big decision to make.

Good luck whatever you decide and I'm sure we'll speak again on either here or the ARGC thread. 

Lots of love,
Lisa.x


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi girls - hope you are all well.

Fidget - I was just wondering how you got on with EC. Hope it all went well and let us know if you've also had et.

Good luck


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi there,

Just a small update on my monitored cycle.  I have a dominant follicle on my right ovary - measuring 12mm - and I'm on day 11, so Geeta is not expecting ovulation for another 4 or 5 days. I have another scan on Monday with the Prof apparently. All going according to plan so far.

Memphis - have you started your monitoring cycle yet?

Debs - how did EC go? Are you relaxing in your 2WW?

Lisa and Lol - I'm off to the ARGC tomorrow afternoon for my followup. Not holding out much hope for a good one to be honest. I don't think Mr T ever does follow ups now, so it's just going to be one of his juniors who seem to have no info.

Teoroy - I forgot to ask about permanent impact of high doses of drugs, I will try to remember on Monday. I will also ask tomorrow at my ARGC appointment.

Hope everyone is well,

Holly


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi Holly,

glad things are continuing to go as planned with Geeta. Did you get your HibinB results?

I certainly hope you have a better follow up than myself and Lol. I still haven't heard back from ARGC, they said they'd call me back after my request to see Mr T. I called them again this morning and they took my number and said they'd call, but I'm still waiting.

I've made an appointment with Geeta, so I'm hoping she'll be able to answer some questions. I thought I may as well see what she has to offer. Even if I decide to cycle with ARGC again after xmas, I feel like I'm doing something in the meantime by seeing Geeta.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Keep us posted on your progress and follow up.

Love,
Lisa.x


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## Lorri (Apr 17, 2005)

Seen this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2004/02/24/hivf24.xml ?


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi guys,

Yes I had my EC and ET, we got 15 eggs   9 of which fertilised and I had two replaced on Monday............. so I have been relaxing this week and will go back to work next week, keeping my fingers and toes crossed this will work  

I found LGFC a completely different place to St.Georges House to say the least!! and we are so glad we made the decision to go to St.Georges as the pace is so relaxed and Geeta and Lizzi are so lovely  


I hope you guys are all well? 

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

My goodness Fidget, 15 eggs, that's fantastic!
And 9 fertilized is great. Did you freeze any?
So you are now on the 2ww, take it easy and look after yourself.
Lots of luck to you,
Lisa.x


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi Lisa,

to date we have two frosties, they were watching the other 5 to see if they carried on and would freeze the blasts if they got that far, we wont know till the next week or so when they send us a letter, although I could call them now and find out I think I will leave it and wait for the post!! 

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

That's really great news and I think you should wait for the letter in post - you don't want to stress yourself out.
But whatever happens, you've got 2, so well done.

Have a lovely (relaxing) weekend.

Lisa.x


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## Adele.K (Aug 29, 2005)

Hi girls. Hi Lisa. [I met Lisa the other night and some other ARGC girls.]

I am def going to go for this option. Thanks so much for all your postings - really inspiring....

So far I've been to the Bridge and Guy's and have an appointment at ARGC as well but this sounds totally up my street. I read theat book Inconceivable and it really made me think that I should listen to my own body and my instincts before I take lots of drugs. I suppose this was made easier because I was given quite a bleak picture about IVF ever working for me. I have been going to Daniel Elliott for acupuncture in Harley St (really good) and it's come down from 23 to 6.8. and I feel more positive and not so down about my chances.

So I'm going to make an appointment on Monday and will let you know how I get on. Delx


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## Mands (Aug 16, 2005)

Hi Girls, (hi Del and Lisa)
Hope u don't mind me hopping onto your thread - but have been following this since Memphis mentioned on one of the ICSI threads that she was going to try this.
It is an absolutely fascinating and very positive thread- and like Del (who I met with Lisa and some other ARGC girls - sound like and echo of Del!) think this is so the right way to go.
Martha - I hope you will be starting a new cycle soon.
Debs - how high was your FSH originally if you don't mind me asking. Your egg result was fab - and well done on so many embies- hope your 2ww is going smoothly and stress free.
Holly and Memphis - hope things are progressing nicely for you.  Holly is the inhibin b test the same as the antral follicle test? 
Hi Lisa - hope u r well
Hi Lorri - have you booked your first appointment?
Having read this thread - I booked my appointment with Geeta for 3 weeks time and I am v excited about it. Have any of you attended without your DH/ DP? I have all of our previous history notes - it's just tough for my DH to get time to come to London for the appointment.
Thanks for all the inspiration - wishing everyone the best of luck and hello's to anyone I have not mentioned. 
Love Amanda xx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Girls - an update from me. Must warn you that it's the same post as that on the ICSI multi-cyclers thread! Hope you are all well.

As you know DH was put on antibiotics but other than that there was not much else that they would/could do for him as his Inhibin B showed up as being v. low. So it will still be ICSI for us. I then started my monitored cycle and have so far had FSH and inhibin B bloods also. Then on Friday I went for an advanced fertility scan with doppler with Mrs Nargund. This basically gives an indication of antral follicles present as well as measuring blood flow to the uterus and the usual uterine checks. My scan showed healthy blood flow and my right ovary was normal with plenty of antral follicles. However, my poor old left ovary was knackered and had practically shrunk and although there were plenty of follicles on it they were all much smaller and therefore, poor quality than the right. This is all due to the fact that I had a large endometrioma lasered off it a couple of years back (at the beginning of this mad ride). Again, this now makes sense to me as whenever I stim I generally produce a fair number of eggs but about half of them are always immature - left knackered ovary  !!

It looks like I won't be able to have completely natural cycle as she said it would be too difficult to do the ICSI with one egg (although not impossible). I am a little disappointed but then I guess we have to be realistic and she did say we would start with very gentle stimulation so I like the sound of that. We are going to have a follow up with her on Friday to discuss things in detail and form a plan of action.


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi guys

Sorry its not good news from me, the witch got me 6 days into the 2ww  

Not sure where to go from here, but just wanted to update you guys

Love and hugs

Debs
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Oh Debs - I almost thought I read your post wrong as I can't believe this has happened.

First of all I am so sorry but I don't understand how AF has come this early. I hope you have spoken to Geeta about it as you must be so devastated?

I have started AF before test date as well so I know how it feels but I really hope you take it easy right now - and yes, thank god you have those frosties.

Sending you hugs and as much strength as I can muster.

Take care xx


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## Mands (Aug 16, 2005)

Debs

I am so very sorry to hear your news - I have been following your progress and am so disappointed to read this. I know this is a stupid question, as it's your body, but could it be implantation bleeding? Here's hoping it is. 
Sending you lots of best wishes and hugs
Amanda


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Fidget, I am so sorry, what awful news.

Are you sure it's af? Could it be an implantation bleed?
I really hope so.

Take good care and lots of love to you,
Lisa.x


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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Hi Amanda, we must have posted at exactly the same time.
I really hope we are right about the implantation bleed.
How are you? Well I hope. 

Adele, it's lovely to hear from you. Have you made an appointment yet? Keep us posted.

Holly, hope everything is going ok with you.

Love to all,
Lisa.


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for you kind thoughts and well wishes, but no its definately AF its far to heavy to be anything else, I have spoken to Geeta and she is as amazed and disappointed as we are, she phoned me at lunchtime as I had called Lizzy first thing. 

Love and hugs

Debs
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## Lol (May 19, 2004)

Debs, really sorry it is over so soon.  Such a horrid thing to go through.  

Holly, how did your follow-up at ARGC go? Did they give you any hope for your next cycle or are you going to stick to the natural route.

Memphis, I think I will be in the same boat as you with regards to having some drugs. Does this mean you end up paying the normal fee for ICSI rather than the natural cycle one or is there a 1/2 way house?

I have been investigating oestrogen priming protocols for poor responders. When I get round to booking an appointment with Geeta I will ask her what she thinks of them.  Also had a telephone consult with SIRM in the states that wasn't all that positive but they do think the oestrogen priming would help a bit.  

Hi to everyone else, hope you are all well.


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Well I am feeling a bit better today and a bit more with the world and over the shock  

This clinic and Geeta continue to amaze and impress me. They are so professional and caring I can no tbelieve it. From day one they have been consistent with their approach and always checking how I feel and cope. I was totally amazed to get so many calls from Geeta throughout the cycle as I have heard many negatives about other Consultants not phoning people and Nurses calling to double check a negative result  . 

I phoned today to make a follow up appoinment and was    to get one today!! I have heard of some people at other clinics waiting months for follow ups!!

I can not rate this clinic and the lovely people in it highly enough, I will write a review in a couple of days when I have got my head around the review etc.

Hugs and good luck to you all

Debs
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## annie. (Mar 24, 2005)

Debs, 
I'm so glad to hear you are feeling better today, hopefully it'll get a bit easier each day.
It's so nice that you feel reassured by the care you are getting from Geeta. After a negative, it can feel like you become cut off from a clinic, but clearly that's not happening here and how wondeful that you have been able to get a follow up so quickly.

I really hope it went well, keep us posted and take good care.
Love,
Lisa.


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## MarthaF (May 19, 2004)

Dear Debs

I am so sorry to hear your news.  I was feeling really positive for you.  I slipped off before getting to transfer but I think you are experiencing what I did - the level of support you get from everyone really helps you through this really crap time.  I hope your follow up was helpful and am sending you a huge  .  You know you have us to support you as well and I do not think I would have kept as up beat without all my lovely fertility friends.

Memphis - glad to hear that things are moving for you - good luck for Friday.  I know what you mean about stimming but the approach here is so different from the typical "300 didn't work so now we can stick you on 450" approach that other clinics take.  Best of luck. 

Lots of love to everyone else.  Hope you are all okay.

Martha xxxx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hello all!

Debs - hope you are feeling a little better each day and it's so good to hear that you are actually getting aftercare - the mighty ARGC always drop you like a hot brick when you give them a negative! Do let us know how your follow-up goes. I was amazed to read that you had it set up for yesterday but then that's just how things should really be because first of all that's the time you need it so much emotionally and also it's the one thing that helps you look forward - and that is truly the best way to begin to heal.

Well done and go forward with positivity!

Holly - hope you are doing ok. How is your monitoring going. Look forward to hearig all.

Good luck to all of you who are going to make appointments with Create and keep us posted.

Bye for now!


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi guys..........

Well geeta is just lovely............... its funny you mention that other clinic cos we had a discussion about them lol........ I wont go into it here as I have no personal knowledge of it, but I did say that I wouldnt touch the place with a barge pole!! Geeta also said ' we could all get amazing stats if we only took easy cases' just goes to show what some people in the profession think also!!

anyway below is a copy of my posts to others on our way forward..... so sorry if you have already read it, But I am far to lazy to write it fresh everytime  

We have had a follow appointment already    ( I was a little amazed at the speed but at least its done) She wants to do a whole battery of tests now as she is very disappointed at this happening....... she even told us that they just know when some people walk through their door that they are going to give them babies, and they had us down as one of those couples   so I am now back to having more scans to check my corpus luteum after ov and blood tests to rule out anti bodies and Lupus   I just hope to god there is something there that we can work on as being supposedly 'unexplained' just really doesnt cut it, especially after this short luteal phase disaster   

we are doing ok, you have to pick yourself up and get on with life, its been a hard few days, but there are worse things that could happen.

Love and luck to everyone

Debs
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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi there,

Debs - I'm so sorry your cycle ended like that. Do you usually have such a short luteal phase - or was this a bolt out of the blue. Does Geeta test for immune issues? You sound like you are coping well with this set back, but make sure you give yourself time to get over it.

I'm off today for another scan. I had one on Monday - which was Day 15 - with the "prof". He said I had a beautiful - his words not mine - follicle on my right ovary which was about to pop. I think I ovulated yesterday, so today's scan should confirm that. Excellent blood flow to the uterus and around the follicle.

I had my follow up with the ARGC on Friday. They said that, given I already have a child, I have a good chance of success again. I pressed really hard on the quality issue in relation to high doses of drugs, but they dismissed it. They said there is no evidence of this, and said that clinics bandy it about as a reason, but it is hearsay not proven. Has anyone got any hard evidence of this? I'm going to ask Geeta about it again today.

I still think my best chance of getting pregnant is at the ARGC. I have had my best results there in terms of response. The monitoring is excellent, which is what I need to maximise my chances. They tweak my protocol on a daily basis, and I need that too. However, I am interested to see what chance Geeta will give me with the Natural Cycle as what drives me insane is the waiting around between cycles. So my way forward I believe is to do Natural cycle inbetween cycles at the ARGC.

Sorry no more personals as I have to rush off for my scan. Hope all you other girls are doing well. Would be interested to hear what my other ARGC buddies think.

Take care,

Holly.


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## Lol (May 19, 2004)

Hi Holly 

It is a really difficult decision.  I know a few people that have got pg when they got a lower number of eggs because they were on lower doses at a different clinic and then never had a success at ARGC so maybe there is some impact or maybe it is that element of luck.  I was told at my follow-up that high doses can make your eggs look dark so this means that high doses of drugs do have some effect but who knows if it is a bad one.  If there isn’t any sort of negative impact you want the best number and the best quality which ARGC will get through their monitoring and timing of trigger.  I think you should see what Geeta says as she will give you the alternative view and then maybe alternate between the two.  There is another interesting thread called poor responders/high FSH on the ICSI board that you should look at.  I am keen to try one of the US protocols that helps poor responders (oestrogen priming) but no clinics here do it as they have only been doing it for a few years.  Maybe ARGC will soon or maybe Geeta would consider it?  If you want me to IM you with it let me know.

Hope the scan shows that everything has gone according to plan.


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## HollyB (Sep 14, 2004)

Hi girls,

Another update on my monitoring .... yesterday my scan showed that I had ovulated and the blood flow in the corpus luteum was very good. When I questioned Geeta on whether there was any indication of the quality of the egg, she said that the blood flow measured throughout indicated a good quality egg. So everything looks very positive .... until she got my Inhibin B result. It is below 15, which basically indicates very poor ovarian reserve - pre-menopausal is what Geeta described it as. The result she would expect to see in someone approaching 50. I was completely shocked. Apparently any result below 45 is a poor result - and obviously a result of less than 15 is appalling. What I don't understand though is that I obviously do have eggs, as I got 13 and 10 on my last 2 IVF's and all the indications are that the egg I produced naturally this cycle (and this is my 4th monitored cycle in the past 3 years, all with similar results) was a good egg.

I am now completely confused. Has anyone else ever heard of this test, or got a result? Why do the ARGC not do this test, as they seem to do every other test under the sun? I do have a call into them about it. And .... despite the result, Geeta still said she would go ahead with Natural Cycle - despite saying at the beginning that the result of this test was essential before we could progress.

Any thoughts girls?

A confused (and quite frankly gob-smacked) Holly


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## Mands (Aug 16, 2005)

Hi Holly
I am so sorry to hear about your result. I really hope it was just a mixed up result. will they run it again, in case? can having just undergone tx affect it as that surely must affect blood and hormone levels? what's so wierd is that your fsh is at a good level isnt it? so surely that would be high with such low inhibin b levels?
it seems so contradictory.
I truly hope that despite this disappointing news, that your natural cycle is a full on success and goes to prove Geeta right in moving forward with tx 
wishing all your anguish away
lots of hugs
Amanda xx


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## memphis (Apr 4, 2005)

Hello girls!

Holly - reading your update it doesn't surprise me that you have been advised to carry on with a natural cycle. I would have thought that no stims would allow you to make the most of each monthly egg and from what you've said your ovulation tracking and egg quality is textbook. The inhibin result probably just confirms the fact that maybe high doses are not the only way to go. I must admit, if DHs sperm was as great as yours I would def give a couple of natural cycles a go but I hope you come to the best decision for you.
Do keep us posted though.

My update from my follow up - My FSH (7.4) and inhibin B (65) were both fine and coupled with good ovarian activity and uterine blood flow I am basically good to go. Based on all these results Geeta wants us to try a v. low stim cycle. She also wants it to be a long protocol which is unusual for me. If I respond that will be great but I will prepare my self to abandon if I have to . I have decided to place my trust in her and go for it! If all goes to plan I will start D-regging on Friday . Wow this is all much faster than I expected but then I was hoping to try a cycle before christmas so there you go!!

Hope you are all well.


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## Fidget (Jan 27, 2005)

Hi girls.......

Hope your all doing ok, 

Holly sorry to hear about yr result... have you decided what you will do next?

My 'short luteal phase' came like a bolt from the blue, have never had it questioned before, I guess its one of those things they dont look for unless something gives them a reason too   its in ' ' at the moment because we are not even sure that is what the problem is and wont know until I have had all the scasn and blood tests, yet more money. We are not sure where we want to go with all this at the moment until hopefully we get some answers as to what happened this time.

love and hugs

debs
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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

This way to a new home 

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41397.new.html#new


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