# Poor embryo's and a mc - Kariotype results tell us why



## Lentil

Dear Crystal,
Thank you for setting up this board again.

Our story so far:
TTC 6 years on 25th June au nat and with clomid BFN's
April 08 1st ICSI LP
15 eggs
11 mature
7 fertilised
By day 3 transfer only 2 remaining. 1 x Grade AB 8cell and 1 x grade B 8 cell (A Good/D bad)
BFP and then mmc at 8 week scan where one sac was visible. 

Sep 08 2nd ICSI LP
17 eggs
15 mature
11 fertilised
Day 3 transfer again only 2 remaining as others had 'blocked'. 2 x grade B 8 cell embryos but BFN.

April 09 3rd ICSI Antagonist 
25 eggs
21 mature
16 fertilised.
At day 4 three embryos all transfered. 1 x 16 cell, 1 x 8 cell and 1 x 6 cell. 2 x grade C and 1 x grade D. BFN  

Our clinic have suggested that we now have DH's sperm DNA fragmentation analised. If this comes back above 30% what can we do? If it comes back normal what then?! His sperm has all been classed as normal so far and he has had it tested with each tx.

Is there anything else at this stage such as nk cells, or other tests that I should have for egg quality, take DHEA perhaps, I am losing weight to get BMI down from 27 to 25 or under (to help one polycystic ovary), should we stop having our wine (if I am honest we drink more than we should probably)  Acupuncture, basically we are ready to try whatever it takes for the next tx to give us our best chance.  Any thoughts very welcome please.

I am sorry to go on but I havent   since the last BFN yet as I am determined to be strong but I feel a bit hopeless today truth be told. 
Thank you so much.
L
xxxx


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## CrystalW

Lentil said:


> Dear Crystal,
> Thank you for setting up this board again.
> 
> Our story so far:
> TTC 6 years on 25th June au nat and with clomid BFN's
> April 08 1st ICSI LP
> 15 eggs
> 11 mature
> 7 fertilised
> By day 3 transfer only 2 remaining. 1 x Grade AB 8cell and 1 x grade B 8 cell (A Good/D bad)
> BFP and then mmc at 8 week scan where one sac was visible.
> 
> Sep 08 2nd ICSI LP
> 17 eggs
> 15 mature
> 11 fertilised
> Day 3 transfer again only 2 remaining as others had 'blocked'. 2 x grade B 8 cell embryos but BFN.
> 
> April 09 3rd ICSI Antagonist
> 25 eggs
> 21 mature
> 16 fertilised.
> At day 4 three embryos all transfered. 1 x 16 cell, 1 x 8 cell and 1 x 6 cell. 2 x grade C and 1 x grade D. BFN
> 
> Our clinic have suggested that we now have DH's sperm DNA fragmentation analised. If this comes back above 30% what can we do? If it comes back normal what then?! His sperm has all been classed as normal so far and he has had it tested with each tx.
> 
> Is there anything else at this stage such as nk cells, or other tests that I should have for egg quality, take DHEA perhaps, I am losing weight to get BMI down from 27 to 25 or under (to help one polycystic ovary), should we stop having our wine (if I am honest we drink more than we should probably) Acupuncture, basically we are ready to try whatever it takes for the next tx to give us our best chance. Any thoughts very welcome please.
> 
> I am sorry to go on but I havent  since the last BFN yet as I am determined to be strong but I feel a bit hopeless today truth be told.
> Thank you so much.
> L
> xxxx


Hello,

Sorry to hear you are so down, it does sounds like you have been through a lot.

Its impossible to know sometimes whether there is an underlying issue or you have just been unlucky. But it does now sound a sensible time to look at other tests etc.

The DNA frag test - can be useful but it is quite a newish test and not everyone uses it. What we can see down the microscope is not always the full story so this test does look at the sperm at a genetic level so i may be useful for you to do. Lifestyle changes and antioxidants can sometimes bring an elevated level down but not always.

All your points are ones you need to discuss with your consultant - there are sadly lots of people in your position so your consultant can advise on where to go. Immune testing is unproven as yet - see the HFEA website for information but is worth discussing.

Besy wishes


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## Lentil

Crystal thank you so much.

If I ever ask our consultant about 'other' things to help he just says that all we need to do is follow their instructions and 'live a happy life'. I am starting to find the same answer we keep getting a bit frustrating when I know from FF that some consultants really encourage Acupuncture or Royal Jelly/DHEA etc.... 

We are going to see a new clinic (Vistahermosa at Alicante) on Tuesday to see what they say too. I just feel we should have all tests possible before having another go. But then on the other hand I keep thinking back to our lost BFP and think maybe we were unlucky....Its a real tester this IF lark isnt it?!!

Many thanks for your reply.
L
xxx


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## CrystalW

Lentil said:


> Crystal thank you so much.
> 
> If I ever ask our consultant about 'other' things to help he just says that all we need to do is follow their instructions and 'live a happy life'. I am starting to find the same answer we keep getting a bit frustrating when I know from FF that some consultants really encourage Acupuncture or Royal Jelly/DHEA etc....
> 
> We are going to see a new clinic (Vistahermosa at Alicante) on Tuesday to see what they say too. I just feel we should have all tests possible before having another go. But then on the other hand I keep thinking back to our lost BFP and think maybe we were unlucky....Its a real tester this IF lark isnt it?!!
> 
> Many thanks for your reply.
> L
> xxx


Hello,

I wish there was a magic answer - i have heard a lot of suggestions -drinking milk, lifestyle changes etc but i have never seen any good scientific evidence they are effective. That does not mean they may help a few individuals and sometimes individual Consultants have personal experience of something and suggest that. But overall many Consultants do just suggest a healthy lifestyle and not anything else. Too much alcohol and smoking has a negaive impact and being healthy will make you feel better to go through the IVF process at the least.

DHEA - have heard some useful things about this but it is not suitable for everyone, but worth asking about. Same with immune testing - but as this is unproven, not all Consultants are convinced it is useful.

Sometimes we are always trying to find an answer when it really can just be `unlucky`.

Good luck with your new clinic, i hope it works out.

Best wishes


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## Lentil

Thank you Crystal. What you say makes sense and I also believe the best thing we can do is to try and chill with it but I dont think there is a 2 hour period at tops that goes by where something doesnt cause me to think about our IF situation. 
Thanks again.
xx


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## Lentil

Hi Crystal, 
Me again  .

Well we switched off for a while and now we suddenly have DH's DNA frag test tomorrow so its got me thinking again about next tx. We are being healthy now and trying to remain chilled to the core but its easier said than done.

If DH's sperm DNA frag test comes back with a result of over 30 I have read that lifestyle changes and antioxidants are the only way forward. Can you please tell me if this is the case and any suggestions you have are very welcome! I am holding out for tx in Sep/Oct as that gives us 3 months plus for the healthy new us to emerge! 

Many thanks
L
xxxx


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## Lentil

OK well we have the results and DH's sperm DNA Frag test came back spot on normal. 

Thats that worry out of the way I guess! 
L
xx


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## Lentil

Just updating:

well I am a bit shell shocked but to let you all know I had a call from Dr Bernabeu at Instituto Bernabeu a couple of hours ago with out Kariotype results. Its not good news.

Basically they have found that i have a rare genetice problem which means i have high levels of Chromatine in one of my Chromosomes and would you know it its the one which causes miscarriage, failure to implant and poor quality embryo's.

DONT panic please anyone as he said it is unusual and quite rare and something that in 16 years he has only come across a couple of times.

Trust me to be different - the odds of having a child with tx with my own eggs are very slim and we would have to do PGD He has recommended that as the odds of success with this are not good that we have the alternative option now of using Donor Eggs.

I am so happy to have closure and know that I need no go through the crazy pg symptom spotting every 5 - 6 weeks prior to AF and also very sad at the same time. I havent really cried but I keep welling up and I cracked a joke at lunchtime and laughed but loads of tears came out. I just got away with it though as it just looked like I had laughed way too much at my own joke. 

So, DH and I have briefly chatted and its a big step but I cant face not trying the DE route as I want to be pg and give birth and give DH a baby as best I can. Looks like we are going to have to dig even deeper now. I dont know if we will make it for October but probably have to save more money and look at 2010 now. 

Who would have known it - certainly its something I never imagined I would have to deal with.

Love Light babydust all round - I hope you all get your dreams.
L
xxxx


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