# Hello All



## Cinderelle (Jun 4, 2007)

It's been a long time coming since I should have joined!

If you post on any other boards, I may well have seen you around!

As a newbie here, I wanted to say hi to you all 

I'm Elle, and my partner Sarah and I live in Rome, Italy at the moment. We've been desperately searching for a donor, but trying to find somebody to fly out here to us, somebody we like, has been fairly difficult so we have begun to persue other options.

We're not entitled to IVF out here, as you need to be a married couple (.. don't get me started, grr) and trying to find a handsome young Italian man to donate is pointless, so we tried to find somebody who would fly over and we did find a couple of donors, but something just didn't feel right.

Then we thought about flying home to either use a donor or go down the clinic route, but because of work commitments I would have to come on my own and I really didn't want to do something so special and important on my own (I do want to add if I had been a single woman embarking on motherhood on my own, I'd have been very happy to do this as a Single Mum, but as it's something we decided to do together, I wanted to see the whole process through to the end together - thought I should add that in as I didn't want the single mums to think I was being rude ) and other commitments would make it impossible for me to do so anyway.

So now we're going down the route of thinking about the online companies who send sperm out to you - I have no idea what their 'professional' name is. I've come across:


http://www.first4fertility.com/
http://www.fertility4life.com/mni/ (which was originally mannotincluded.com)
http://www.first4fertility.com/

I'm sure there are others but I can't seem to think of the names now. It's just that I can't remember ever hearing anything good about either of them. Does anybody have any good or bad experiences with them or any other companies like these?

Wishing you all luck on your journeys, I look forward to speaking with you all more,

E


----------



## nickidee (Sep 16, 2007)

Hi Cinderelle,
I have had a quick look at the website and note that they use fresh sperm. HIV has a 3 month incubation period so fresh sperm can never be guaranteed to be 100% safe. In other words, a potential donor could clear an HIV test but he could still be carrying the virus (and therefore be capable of transmitting it) if he has been exposed at any stage in the 3 months prior to the HIV test. Frozen sperm from a clinic eliminates that risk as donors are tested at regular intervals and sperm not released until after this incubation period has lapsed and the donor has still tested clear. 
This means that if you were to go this route, you could risk exposing yourself, your partner and any baby to the virus.
I also recall that the company formerly knwn as Men Not Included was heavily criticised for its unsafe and unethical practices and I have tracked down a newspaper article - unfortunately from the Mail on Sunday so of questionable quality   - which I will just cut and paste here.
I hope this helps.
Nicki

MAIL ON SUNDAY ARTICLE 
Morals Not Included
By Matt Nixson and Jo Knowsley
The Mail on Sunday June 20, 2004
A CONTROVERSIAL business that sells sperm to lesbians over the internet is today accused of cruelly misleading its gullible customers - and perhaps exposing them to the risk of AIDS.
Man Not Included, Britain's first online fertility clinic, has routinely flouted the crucial guarantees it makes to clients about both the quality of the sperm it supplies and the background of its donors.
The fast-growing website has already helped dozens of gay couples and desperate single women conceive a child. Grateful clients pay up to £2,000 in return for 'top quality' sperm donated, according to the firm, by men subjected to a rigorous screening process.
But two ex-employees of the website have revealed to The Mail on Sunday that women were consistently supplied with sperm from donors who had few ? or none ? of the physical, social and intellectual characteristics they had specified.
This meant a client who thought she was getting sperm from a fairhaired donor from a professional background might in fact be given sperm from a man who was neither of those things.
Man Not Included also reneged on a guarantee that once a man's sperm had been supplied to a customer, he would be removed from the firm's books during the pregnancy, the former employees claim. And several women received samples from the same man.
This raises the disturbing prospect that people born as a result of the website's 'service' could unwittingly form incestuous sexual relationships with half-brothers or sisters ? a concern intensified by the fact that donors and clients usually lived in the same area.
Most alarmingly, it is claimed that clients were exposed to the risk of AIDS because donors were not given effective health screening for the disease.
When contacted by The Mail on Sunday, the firm denied that it had misled its clients - but admitted there might have been some minor teething troubles. However, last night MPs raised serious concerns about the controversial agency and trading standards officers announced an inquiry.
Former Man Not Included salesman Mike Black told The Mail on Sunday: 'I am sorry I ever got involved. Our customers were desperate to have babies and we exploited them. There is a good chance some will have babies that are different from what they wanted. And several might even be in danger.' Man Not Included was set up in June 2002 by former City headhunter John Gonzalez and is run from a first-floor office in Harley Street, London. He spotted a loophole in the law that bans clinics from dealing in frozen sperm without a licence, yet allows the supply of fresh sperm.
The website, clearly targeted at lesbians and defiantly politically correct, claims to have already enabled 60 women to have babies. The firm arranges for sperm to be delivered by courier for artificial insemination by the clients themselves. But because it is fresh sperm it cannot be screened for HIV which has a three-month incubation period during which it will not show up in health tests. Former staff also insist that the firm broke a promise to regularly test each donor for disease. 
Mr Black, who quit the company last year after becoming increasingly concerned at its practices, said his job was to encourage women to sign up to packages costing £800 and upwards.
'I was telling people on John Gonzalez's orders that once a donor was chosen by a client, he was removed from the website's database to prevent other women selecting him.
'In practice, once Man Not Included had a donor signed up, and successfully screened for fertility and disease, they would try to use him as much as possible to save money by avoiding extra testing costs. 'We had something like 3,000 potential donors on the site but only around 80 were regularly used to supply more than 250 women.
Repeat testing simply didn't take place as an official policy.
'We were concerned we might be sending infected sperm out and on one occasion, before I left, we paid for some retesting to take place without John's knowledge.
'Clients had three choices of donor - if their first didn't come back clear from health testing, we were supposed to test the second donor then their third choice to see if they were capable of donating.
But in practice, we were ordered to simply tell the client their original choice was OK then substitute him for another who'd already passed the health tests.' He added: 'You could easily have the nightmare scenario that one prolific donor could be fathering multiple children in the same area.
'Donors had to live within an hour of clients, otherwise the sperm dies in transit so you could have children going to the same schools as half-brothers and sisters without ever knowing it.
'Providing donors were of the right ethnic background which was the one characteristic John would never mess with and lived within an hour's drive, they would be asked to donate there and then.' The Mail on Sunday can also reveal that Man Not Included deceived women who paid for their donor's sperm to be cryogenically frozen in case they wanted more children with the same genetic father in the future.
Mr Black said: 'One of the packages offered included the freezing of sperm. The donor was supposed to visit a cryobank every couple of weeks to build up a sperm bank for the client's future use.
'But there was no cryobank and when I left a number of women were demanding their frozen sperm so they could start their insemination procedures - but it didn't exist.' Other failings include shoddy deliveries of sperm samples.
Sperm samples -which must be used within an hour - often arrived late, cold and, in one astonishing lapse, delivered in a flask containing dregs of coffee.
The company also failed to keep the identity of donors secret from clients. On a number of occasions, their names and addresses were accidentally left on flasks used to deliver the sperm samples to customers. Nor was there proper vetting of potential donors.
Stella Murphy, 23, who worked as Gonzalez's personal assistant before quitting with Mike Black last year, said last night: 'We had constant complaints of botched deliveries and problems with donors. 'It was always a case of getting the cash into the bank as fast as possible. Clients were looking for donors with good qualifications, good health and the right background. 'But in reality, donors could claim they had 12 GCSEs, five A-Levels, three degrees and looked like Brad Pitt and no one would know otherwise. We never checked and most never even came into the office. It was the same with their medical history which they were asked about. These couldn't be checked. How could we? Patient records are confidential-We had to take everything at face value.
'More worryingly, there was never any way of proving the person donating the sperm was the person actually chosen to donate. It could have been anyone: flatmates, friends, family.' The company is now facing a growing number of complaints from unhappy customers. Sarah, a 25-year-old from York, said: 'When we first chose our donor we were adamant he should not be a redhead. 'I just didn't want a child with ginger hair. We chose a 27-year-old website designer with brown hair and living in Leeds and were given a reference number to identify him.
'Later when we asked Man Not Included for the results of our donor's health check they sent us details of a completely different man - he was from Manchester and had ginger hair. 'We were devastated. And when one sample arrived it was inside a tub in a flask and there was coffee in the flask.' Another couple have agreed an out-of-court settlement with John Gonzalez after taking Man Not Included to the small claims court following a series of disastrous attempts to get pregnant.
They said: 'We paid something like £900 and we were told sperm would be frozen for our future use but we have no evidence this happened.' Another customer, Carla, 21, an administrator from Essex, said: 'The costs kept going up. We spent something like £1,500 and had no luck getting pregnant. 'They just kept trying to sell us new packages but the ones we paid for turned up late, cold and on the wrong days.'
Midwife Gail Graham, 47, worked as a volunteer for Man Not Included before quitting in disgust. She told The Mail on Sunday: 'It was just a moneymaking machine, pure and simple. John sold it as a crusade on behalf of lesbians but he seemed to be just interested in the cash. On one occasion I even heard John refer disparagingly to clients as *****.' In February Mr Gonzalez provoked fresh controversy by launching a second internet venture - Woman Not Included, which offers infertile women, including single women and lesbians, the chance to buy eggs from anonymous overseas donors at a potential cost of thousands of pounds.
In a detailed response to his former employees' allegations, Mr Gonzalez denied individual donors had been used to supply sperm to many different women. He said: 'We have a policy that any donor will only be allowed three live births which is seven less than is allowed through the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. 
'We can produce a paper trail for every donor we have used. When someone selects a donor and that donor is not available, then they are given the opportunity to select another donor.' When pressed further on whether sperm from one donor had been supplied to many different women, Mr Gonzalez said: 'If that has happened, it has been done without my knowledge and against company policy.' He also claimed donors were repeatedly retested for HIV, adding: 'Every single one is tested and retested every ten weeks to the day. We do have a full paper trail so if you publish anything to do with that I will sue your ****.' Mr Gonzalez initially denied offering the frozen sperm service until confronted with evidence from his website. Then he claimed: 'We were in discussions to try and freeze our donors' sperm but unfortunately the person we were working with tragically died of a heart attack.' He added: 'We are a brand new organisation and rely on third party services which is why we provide cost-effective services. 'If a delivery is 20 minutes late, that's because the courier company has been stuck in traffic. We take medical advice and the fact that we have almost 60 conceptions and babies delivered shows it does work.' Mr Gonzalez also claimed not to run Man Not Included, although he conceded he was the founder, owner and brainchild of the company. And he insisted: 'We are the only organisation that demands two forms of identification, not only for our donors but also for our recipients.' The website includes a lengthy legal disclaimer advising potential customers that the firm is an introduction service only, and cannot guarantee that donor sperm is free of infection.
Lisa Saffron, of the lesbian, gay and bisexual parenting group PinkParents, said last night: 'We strongly advise lesbians not to use Man Not Included. It is an irresponsible, unregulated service offering fresh sperm from anonymous donors. 'There is no way that Man Not Included can guarantee the donors are who they say they are, nor can they guarantee sperm safety. A man may become infected with HIV or other sexually transmitted diseases the day after screening.' 
Josephine Quintavalle, director of the fertility watchdog Comment on Reproductive Ethics, said: 'The chances of siblings meeting in small communities must be reasonably high. The worst case would be these children meeting, falling in love and having their own kids and the ethical and medical complications that might result.' Last night Liberal Democrat health spokesman Paul Burstow said: 'The Mail on Sunday's research has raised some very disturbing questions which need answering.
'It is clear this business is both risky to the health of the women who are buying sperm and raises serious ethical issues. The Government needs to urgently consider an inquiry.' Conservative shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley said: 'I shall be asking Ministers to establish an inquiry into whether these activities should be regulated.' And the head of Westminster Council's trading standards team, Sue Jones, promised to investigate the allegations against Man Not Included and urged dissatisfied clients to contact them on 020 7641 1111.


----------



## Cinderelle (Jun 4, 2007)

That's brilliant Nicki, I appreciate your help.

Does anybody know anywhere where I can have Frozen sperm delivered to me so we can try at home? (Obviously not here in Italy because we aren't allowed to have it shipped here, grrr again!)


----------



## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi there would it be feasible for you to go to another European country without such strict laws as Italy, or in fact UK- Spain but it may be thorugh a clinic Denmark, Eastern Europe -Russia, Czech, ?Poland and Spain all have sperm available as FF women on the treatment abroad have got it from there and treat single women. One lady imported sperm from the USA to Kiev but it was embargoed so she had to use local sperm from their clinic.

L x


----------



## Cinderelle (Jun 4, 2007)

Hi JJ1,

Yes, I think it might have to be an option. I spoke with the gay and lesbian family association about here in Italy and it seems like they all go abroad for treatment, something I'll have to look into. I did look into Denmark because it seemed less expensive, but Rome - Denmark flights don't go every day, so wouldn't work well with Ovulation and trying not to be away from home too long!

It's difficult as we can't take much time off work and leave Italy, so we were trying to tie it in with a trip back home to see friends and family in London and thought we could just buy some frozen sperm from the internet - but I can't seem to find any companies dealing with frozen sperm and I'm not willing to take a chance with fresh.

Oh decision, decisions!


----------



## mintyfaglady (Aug 25, 2007)

As far as I know, you can no longer get your hands on frozen sperm for home use in the UK. Not legally, anyhow


----------



## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi Elle

Fresh sperm agencies (currently) escape the regulation and licensing requirements.  As soon as sperm is frozen and stored, the agency has to be licensed and to meet all the HFEA regulation requirements, so you won't find a non-clinic agency which supplies frozen sperm.  

You may be able to persuade a UK clinic to supply sperm to you for home insemination in Italy.  I've just checked the HFEA Code of Practice which says that licensed centres may release sperm for home insemination 'only in exception circumstances which make it impracticable or undesirable for the patient to be insemination at the centre'.  It's certainly arguable that living in Italy makes it impracticable for you to go to the clinic.

I'm not sure whether there are any rules forbidding import of sperm to Italy which might cause problems - I know the laws on sperm donation there are pretty restrictive.  But barring that I don't see why a UK clinic can't send sperm to you at home in Italy. 

Just a thought - might be worth exploring.

Natalie
[email protected]


----------

