# Almost 45, IVF + PGS no normal eggs, am I mad to go on trying?



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi,

Just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on this.

I just had IVF for the first time aged 44 3/4.  I had one successful, healthy pregnancy where conceived on the first try at 38 and now have a lovely son.  

Tried again when he was 3 and after 5 months of trying was pregnant again but m/c at 10 weeks after an early scan showing no heartbeat.  Started trying again for about 6 months and no pregnancy so thought should look into IUI as my age was starting to count against me.  Had 4 cycles of IUI with and without clomid - no luck.

My hospital (ACU) said I was a good candidate for IVF with a new screening process (PGS) where they could check out all eggs to see if they were normal, as showed such good ovarian reserve.  Didn't jump for joy at this as hate taking paracetamol sometimes but decided to give it a go - mostly so we could tell our son who wants a brother that we had tried all we could.  

IVF produced 20 eggs, 15 fertilised but none normal so nothing to put back in. Eggs weren't best quality but improved to grade 1 after fertilisation.  Doctor said he wouldn't recommend trying IVF again.

So game over.  BUT am I mad to think that I might still have one good egg in me left?  If I try to get pregnant naturally and I do conceive am I just setting myself up for m/s and heartbreak?

Should I accept that I have one lovely son and that I can just take charge over my own body again.  

What do you think?

BTW healthy, quite fit, BMI 22.5, eat well, have acupuncture and a positive person.  Husband has super sperm according to clinic.

Julia


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Julia,

Sorry that things have turned out the way they have for you.  

Given that you are still producing eggs there can't be any harm in continuing to try to  get pregnant naturally for a while. Stranger things have happened and it's not impossible at 44, especially as you've achieved 2 pregnancies before. Only you can know if you can cope with the disappointments that continuing to TTC can bring but if you feel you can accept the downs with the ups you may as well try again. You never know you might just get lucky.  

I hope things work out for you, 

CG x


----------



## valerieann (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi Julia

Wow you did produce a lot of eggs.  Grade 1 after fertilisation ?  is that the bottom scale or the top ?  I have read quite a bit about this now and some people say that each cycle of IVF is totally different.  I have also read that about 70 - 80% of our eggs will not be good quality, however that means that 20 - 30% are.  Perhaps your first cycle only produced the bad ones and you still have the good ones left.  I am 45 and trying my first IVF too.  On my 10 day wait, with 2 embryos, still hoping.

I am not sure what to suggest to you, but just thought I would drop you a line.  Its a real curse, this age thing, isn't it.  You feel so young, but your body defies you by producing "old" eggs.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.  Enjoy the fact you are already a mummy.

Heres some positive energy for you.


----------



## pip7 (May 5, 2006)

Hi Julia

Not sure that I can add much more than the others.  I too have heard of stories where on one IVF cycle there were no good embryos to put back, and then on another there were some, so I'm not sure that you can know for sure without giving it at least one more shot.

I also know that there are different lines of thought about whether you can do anything about egg quality.  Some doctors seem quite clear that there's nothing that can be done and it's all down to age and luck, while there are others who think that you might be able to have an impact on egg quality.  For example, there's some research being done in the US, at the Centre for Human Reproduction, I think, where they are looking into the impact of DHEA on egg production in poor responders.  I know you're not a poor responder, but it may be worth contacting them to find out if DHEA can improve egg quality even in good responders like yourself.  

At 41, I find it extremely difficult to believe that I don't still have it in me to produce that one good egg and a good environment in which an embryo can survive (I'm a poor responder and recurrent miscarrier) so I would find it hard in your position to give up trying now.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.  I really hope things work out and you do have a little brother or sister for your son.  Although at the moment I feel that one child would be a blessing, I know that really I would love a bigger family, so I can understand you wanting to go for another.

Pip x


----------



## ladydee (Oct 19, 2006)

Hi.

I am by no means an expert of IVf as this is my first time but there is also a lady who posts on this site called Nuala who had a daughter at 45 after using Chinese, herbs etc.

See one of her postings

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php? topic=72906.msg988609;topicseen#msg988609

Also, I have read a book called "The Infertility Cure" by Randine Lewis which provides quite a few example of older mothers who have gone on to have children who have achieved this by a combination of Acupuncture and Chinese Herbs.

Randine believes if a woman is having periods then it is possible to have a child. She likens our fertility to a river which slows down as we get older but can be speed-ed up again. She states if the blood flow to the Uterus is improved and nutrition then things are possible. Her book has provided me with inspiration that it is possible for me at age 42 to have a child. I have not embarked on the Chinese herbs but I am having Acupuncture and started 7 weeks ago. I can honestly say Acupuncture has definitely helped with the side effects of the downregging so far.

Randine web site http://www.easternharmonyclinic.com/

I know there are no guarantees for us to be successful but IMHO I believe it is possible even if we only have a relatively small % for success but it is still a chance.

Ladydee

(edited to address annoying spelling mistake)


----------



## allison kate (Aug 9, 2005)

Hi Julia

So sorry to hear you have been through a rough time but I just wanted to comment on the 'bad eggs' debate.  Last November after my 3rd failed IVF I had immune/blood clot testing done in Chicago in conjunction with Dr Caroline Coulam from the Rhinehart Centre.  As well as being a lovely person she is one of the world's leading experts on infertility.

Her take on bad eggs at 'our' age was that although there was a stronger possibility of cromosomally abnormal eggs, chances of them all (meaning eggs produced from all cycles combined) was basically impossible and that there must be some other 'problem' which was stopping the embryos from implanting/developing.  For me this was treatable genetic blood clotting problems.

I have also thought about doing PGD and might well if this current IVF cycle doesn't work (Please God that it does!) but I have been doing a lot of reading up about it in advance.  One of the main things I read and which concerned me about doing PGD, was that if only one cell is taken from each embryo then it doesn't give conclusive results as it is possible the cromosomal damage was only in that cell.  Do you know if one or two cells where taken from each embryo?  

I have also been having acupuncture, which I believe is of huge benefit to one's health and most acupuncturists can put you in touch with a reputable clinic for Chinese herbs.  I love the Chinese philosophy on life...Ladydee, what a wonderful image you conjure up of our fetility!

Best of luck hunni with whichever route you decide to take!
Allison xxx


----------



## suzy (Oct 12, 2003)

Hi Julia,

I think it depends on whether you are prepared to pay the price both emotionally, physically and financially for a small chance of success, and whether you are ready to stop and would feel satisfied that you have done all you can if you did stop now. If you think you (and your relationship) have it in you to keep trying, then I definately would, especially as you have lots of eggs. I'm sure if you took every 45 year old woman and tested their eggs, then the vast majority would be abnormal. However occasionally, some of them would have a good one. It just takes one good one and that one might be in your next cycle. There are plenty of women who have got pregnant after been told by their doctors to stop treatment.

I wish you all the best whatever you decide,

Love,

Suzy


----------



## nuala (Jul 13, 2005)

Hi,

Laydydee thanks for giving Julia the link to one of my postings.  i am Nuala and after meeting my DH at 42 we started trying for a baby when I was 43.  Nothing happened (I had never been pregnant in my life and never tried either) so I went to the Lister Clinic in London age 44.  I had 2 rounds of IVf but neither worked (my you had great response - I only had 4 eggs first round and 2 second round).  We were told only option was De or try for a miracle.

I had started acupunture on 2nd IVF and my acupuncturist who is a traine dchinese herbalist suggested I tried the herbs.  Within 3 months had my first positive but it didn't stick then 2 months later fell pregnant with my darling daughter Amber who was born in November 2006 just 9 days after my 46th birthday!!  I now do not believe that all of our eggs are wrinkly and old we just need to help the environment so they can implant properly.  I also did yoga and used PreSeed when BDing.

Hope this helps.

Nuala


----------



## janeup (Jan 15, 2005)

Hi.  I took chinese herbs for 4 months and despite being truly revolting (and quite expensive...) they really improved my cycles - I ovulated, produced loads and loads of cervical mucus, and just felt incredibly well generally (everybody says my skin and hair look great).  I didn't conceive naturally though and have now started a cycle using donor eggs in Spain.  The herbs made my body wake up again and I think if I don't get pregnant this cycle using donor eggs I will definitely give the herbs another try.  I am now doing just the acupuncture as don't think I should take the herbs alongside the drugs I am taking for DE Treatment.  If I had had the will or the patience or even the guts I might have just carried on taking the herbs and not pursued the DE route and seen what happened.  I really believe they work.  A friend of mines sister has just conceived for the first time at 48 (not sure if DE or own eggs - probably the former) and went to the same lady in Camden Town as me.  She is a fertility specialist herself and recommends all her patients consult this chinese doctor at Acumedic.  Anyway, good luck in whatever you do.  Nualas story is just wonderful and an inspiration to us all.


----------



## cesca (Sep 18, 2004)

Hi Julia I just thought i would tell you of my experience. I met my husband at 40 and we started trying for a baby soon after we got married at 41. I always produce loads of eggs which after accupuncture and herbs were all seemingly grade 1 to 2 . I got pregnant twice only to miscarry at 5 weeks . Devastating. At 43 yrs We then decided to do pgs in london. I produced 16 eggs which 11 fertilized. They chose 7 grade 1 eggs and had them tested . Only one came back normal . This was then put back into me but sadly failed to implant. We were offered the chance of another go with the possibility of maybe getting more undamaged embryos. We thought long and hard and I decided that after 6 attempts I couldn't put my self through another cycle with the possibility of having nothing at the end . We decided to go for donor eggs . At 45 I fell pregnant at our first attempt and am about to deliver next week! I have just turned 46 yrs.
I hope your journey in this ivf gamble will be sucssesful and you come home with that much wanted child. Good luck cescaxxx


----------



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi CG, Valerie, Pip7, Ladydee, Allison kate, Suzy, Nuala, Janeup and Cesca,

Thanks very much for all your posts. Lots of interesting things to think about.  The most important is that each IVF cycle is different - I really didn't know that so that definitely gives me hope that I can still get pregnant with one good egg.  

And in answer to the question about PGS - of the 15 fertilised grad 1 eggs (that is good by the way) they tested one cell only; of these they couldn't get a reading from 3 but had 2 which had normal cells.  They then did a second reading only on these 2 and they were then abnormal.  So if the PGS isn't entirely accurate maybe there is hope.  

Also regarding the herbs etc I already have acupuncture but am thinking of changing to a Chinese Dr and imbibing!  And with the river analogy I still have a very regular cycle, seem to ovulate most months and am definitely not yet peri menopausal so am still flowing! Janeup do you know which doctor to use at Acumedic as that is very near to where I live?

And will also contact the Centre for Human Reproduction so thanks for that Pip7.

Alison and Valerie really wishing you lots of good luck for your tests.  Ladydee - are you waiting for a result for your ICIS? Nuala - have read your story before and it is a wonderful one.  Hope you are enjoying motherhood.  And Cesca your journey is amazing - you are very brave and really deserve (actually everybody does!) this baby - good luck for next week.

My final thought is I wish I had had the opportunity to have children earlier - had a long relationship is my 20s which broke my heart and then didn't meet my lovely husband until I was 37.  Just thinking of all those wasted baby making years makes me sad. And yes I know there is nothing I can do about it and that path was for me etc but there it is.

Julia


----------



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Me again,

Please forgive final paragraph on last post - I am very grateful for all I have (including very lovely cute wonderful son) and was just having a very negative, stampey foot moment. 

Please forgive me!

Julia


----------



## janeup (Jan 15, 2005)

Hi - I see Dr Lily at Acumedic in Camden High Street- she is really really popular though and getting an appointment can be tricky. But she is lovely! 
and er...I think one's allowed to have negative, stampey foot moments!  I do all the time!


----------



## drownedgirl (Nov 12, 2006)

Hi, I had my son at 37 and since then have had no problem getting pregnant but have had miscarriage after miscarriage. At least two were abnormal embryos, due to my age (almost 42 now) I do acupuncture and my FSH is about 11.

I did consider IVF with PGD, but for the cost, and the low chance of responding well to meds and produsing enough eggs to have a good pool to do PGD, I started to look at DE in Spain or Moscow.

A young friend then offered to donate to me, and that's what we're pursuing now.


----------



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi,

Good luck with the DE drownedgirl.  

Someone has also just offered me some eggs as doing IVF herself and freezing for later use.  She is 40 and we are considering it.  

However I reacted very badly to the drugs on IVF and if we do DE, even naturally, there are lots of more to take that I really don't want to.  Anyway something to consider.

Julia


----------



## drownedgirl (Nov 12, 2006)

Julia, you can do an unmedicated cycle with drozen embryos, I believe? If you are the recipient, then you don't have most of the IVF drugs, anyway. Good luck with your decision

xx


----------



## thespouses (Jan 5, 2006)

From what I have read about PGS embryos can have a number of abnormal cells but at the core be normal - they are mosaic.  If the embryo is basically normal it can develop OK and if it isn't, yes you will miscarry but if you are willing to take that risk, I have to say, if it was me I'd say put them back anyway.  There are only a few trisomys that can continue without miscarrying so if you are dead set against those you could say only put back the others, where they have tested 2 cells and one is normal.

I have also read, however, that PGS doesn't actually reduce the rate of miscarriage (possibly because it isn't very good at screening).  We are awaiting genetic testing results to find out if we need to do PGD (which is a bit different) so I've been reading up on PGS too.


----------



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback thespouses.  Too late now as eggs all gone but does make me think it is worth continuing.  Although have now moved on and am feeling that 1 kid is my lot and I am not sure that I could cope with a little baby.  However saying that am also taking yucky tasting herbs and having acupuncture from the famous dr from Acumedic in camden!

Julia


----------



## katherine anne (Apr 4, 2007)

what's trying? I am nearly 43 with normal hormone levels, a three year old conceived very fast but nothing at all has happened since. my doc tells me I have low ovarian reserve but there may still be one good egg out there and the chances of it popping out are hardly increased by any sort of intervention. I veer from wanting agressive fertility treatment to accepting that it will proabbly be a complete waste of money. This isn't helping is it?


----------



## JuliaM (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi Katherine Anne,

For me the IVF treatment I had was very helpful as it gave me a indication as to why I hadn't got pregnant.  We had been trying to 2 years including a miscarriage  It was only after the IVF that I learnt all this stuff about the aggressive drugs maybe not being the right thing for older, more delicate eggs but even if I had known this at the start I think I would have still gone through it all.

Thing is I really have moved on now.  I have a lovely, demanding, cheeky 5.5 year old son and I am honestly doubting my desire/ability to returning to sleepless nights, nappies, being on the watch out all the time for what they are doing that all comes with another child.  The real reason I wanted another was more for my son but now the age gap will be so great that they would have probably ignored each other.  

Anyway having been taking these Chinese herbs and will complete the month course but am seriously considering giving up this 'lets try for another month' habit that I have!

Good luck with you getting pregnant - maybe you should consider Chinese herbs and acupuncture instead of IVF?

Julia


----------

