# Yet the NHS cant afford IVF.....



## Guest (Dec 3, 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7761223.stm

This has truly angered me


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Another baseless report by the beeb! Where are the actual numbers? Nope, didn't think so...

I mean: 'Surgeons have heard of cases...' that means nothing at all!

Don't get wound up by it - the Beeb did something similar on going abroad for IVF and that was bollix too. I bet there are hardly any cases of post-surgery complications and if there are most will have been carried out in this country.


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## Wraakgodin (Jun 17, 2006)

Why has this angered you?

These people have serious medical conditions such as blood poisoning, wound infections and blood clots, would you prefer for them to die?  Sometimes people who undergo cosmetic surgery are so affected by their "disfigurement" that it affects their whole life and going abroad is the only way they can afford to get it "fixed".  

There are people who undergo fertility treatment abroad because it is cheaper, why shouldn't cosmetic surgery patients??

Sue 
(just wanted to point out that I haven't had cosmetic surgery, in the UK or abroad, and I don't think I would ever consider it - just trying to see another point of view!)


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## encore (May 27, 2004)

I have met loads of women who've had twins as a result of groups i became part of in australia.  A couple of them have had tummy tucks.  I have seen their 'befores' and honestly, some of these women are disfigured in my book!  they have extra skin that hangs down over their pubic area in a massive fold, and horrific abdominal muscle separation which will NEVER return to normal, resulting in a massive bulge.  

Getting procedures like a 'tummy tuck' is very expensive.  I can't imagine what it would cost in the UK.  Way more than the average person could afford anyway.  But If I looked like some of these women who've had triplets and twins look, they i would for sure look into it!  I don't know any who have had bad complications....but one had a wound infection, and also necrosis (in a very small area)....where the skin and muscle just dies.  these are complications that can arise from ANY surgery in ANY hospital...even the good ones.  Look at the cases of MRSA in the UK!  They need to be treated, and treated immediately.  Its not as if you can board a flight with a raging infection and an open wound....

Yes, I agree that if they dont like their results, then its bad luck to a certain extent, but its a big leap to assume that they've gone to a grotty surgeon and done no research.


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## encore (May 27, 2004)

Katie, as I said, in my opinion the results of some multiple pregnancies are actually disfigurement.  Having seen the impact of it, there is more than vanity at stake.  much more.  and i don't believe for a second that people are having things like 'wonky nipples' fixed.  I know the article impled that people were having 'mistakes' fixed, (cuz of course that sounds more sensationalist), but...

If you read the article carefully  "A poll of 203 NHS surgeons found that more than a third knew of cases where complications followed surgery abroad"....yeah, so what?  knowing of cases is different to treating them.  

"seen a range of complications including blood poisoning, wound infections and blood clots, as well as patients who were not happy with the results of the surgery".  ok so we're all in agreement that the first 3 complications would require treatment.  as for the last one (not happy), again, the article states 'seen'.  NOT treated.

British Association of Plastic & Aesthetic Surgeons recon the "extra work being caused by having to see these patients could end up delaying other NHS work"...riiiiight.  no mention of the numbers of 'these patients', and it "could" end up delaying other NHS work.  Not HAS delayed other NHS work.  COULD.

Hmmmmm wonder if BAPAS is really concerned about the NHS....or if it would prefer that brits stayed at home and had their plastic surgery done by them?

it is shoddy journalism.  sounds like should be more news of the world than beeb.


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## encore (May 27, 2004)

that may be true katie, but its still shoddy journalism.  i hardly think its happenning in epic proportions, i hardly think it happens often.  There are plenty of ways the NHS could spend its money more wisely that would save gazillians of dollars.  Like....errr, not investing billions of dollars in new computer systems that don't work.

I just hate this type of inaccurate story that slings mud at people (just like 'twin mothers overburden NHS'...."old mothers burdern NHS"  "fat mothers burden NHS").


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## Hayleigh (Apr 29, 2008)

KatieD said:


> My point is Sue, that Im sure we all have parts of our bodies that we hate, I dont like my bum, my boobs are so big they hurt my back, my friend cant stand her nose which was broken when she was younger, my other friend has what the boys used to call 'pancake chest' and they still do, yet I have never considered a 'quick fix' boob job somewhere because of it, my friend considered getting her nose done. in Bulgaria I think it was, but changed her mind because she couldnt garentee a happy outcome, we are all unhappy at something or another, maybe if someone has such a bad perception of themselves then they should consider counselling first to help them beat their demons rather than go under the grotty knife of a surgeon who they only met the day before, this would leave them with a much happier perception because once one thing on their body is fixed, chances are they'll start homing in on another part that they dont like..... Surely changing their mindset would be a lot better and more risk free and probably cheaper too......... Why should someone who has paid thousands of pounds, who hasnt bothered to research their chosen clinic properly and whose lips havnt gone to plan, or whose boobs are wonky be offered that choice of corrective surgery when people are being turned down for far more serious, life threatening conditions? That is what angers me.


Hi...I *DO* agree with alot of the points you have made most definitely, but I really do think you have painted a horrid picture of people who choose and pay lots of money to undergo cosmetic surgery!!! I know I'm veering off course a little here and slightly coming away from the original post but your post RE: Cosmetic surgery is very naive and extremely judgmental and actually found it quite offensive.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm afraid I agree with Hayleigh! We expect people who have had no problem having children to understand how crippling infertility is... yet we don't extend the same understanding to people who suffer horribly because of something they feel is a crippling defect.

We all suffer.

Cosmetic sugery isn't automatically about vanity, just as IVF isn't about having a 'designer' family - like the Daily Mail keeps telling us.

Suffering should not be a competition to see how much more miserable someone is.


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## Hollybags (May 7, 2008)

The NHS was set up to provide equitable healthcare for all, free at source. There are limited funds, hence the existence of NICE for example, in order to aim to get the best value and outcome for the money spent. As such, some drugs and treatments are not funded, and this obviously includes a lot (but not all) elective surgery, including surgery for cosmetic purposes, and in some cases, fertility treatment.

Should a patient be unable to access the treatment they want/need - including cosmetic surgery, and fertility treatments they have the right to step into the private sector, both in the UK and abroad. But as British residents, a population who are legally required to pay into the NHS via National Insurance, the NHS still has a duty of care to treat them, particularly in the case of emergency treatment, no matter how it resulted. 

So, in just the same way that if a patient chooses or feels forced to seek medical treatment outside of the NHS for treatment such as fertility, or say, a hip replacement, they would be able to come back to their local Primary Care Trust and expect treatment, the same is true of those who choose to have other elective/non NHS treatment, including cosmetic surgery. 

From an NHS point of view, one of the most expensive and avoided events is "unplanned admission"  - when a patient is unexpectedly admitted to hospital. So it's actually a whole lot cheaper and easier to deal with planned care, even if it's attempting to fix something which has gone wrong outside of the NHS - because the consequences of refusing/not treating are worse for the local health economy.

Sadly, this doesn't make interesting newspaper copy whereas poor journalism like this, does. I'd urge everyone to try and look behind the headlines.


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## Sammysmiles (Sep 8, 2008)

I am really sorry Katie, but I cant agree with you either. Each case needs to be looked at individually before anyone can comment surely?

Surely its a personal choice to have surgery privately either here or abroad whether it be cosmetic or not. What about the women who pay privately abroad for fertility treatment then go on to have their children in an NHS hospital? Are they included in this or is that different?


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