# Help - we just don't know what to do? 3rd failed sibling attempt, what's wrong?



## Tiny21 (Jul 24, 2007)

Hi there lovely ladies
I have been on many threads on here and just would love some thoughts from you lovely ladies, we have our review on Friday and already have a decent list of questions but don't want to miss something and just wondered what your thoughts were on this history - sadly we have so much experience between us   

We have had 3 failed attempts for a sibling and SO desparately don't want our little boy to be an only child.    (We are hugely grateful to have him but why do we feel guilty for wanting another but don't think I don't know how lucky we are) This is our 10th attempt overall   , can't really believe that tbh, admittedly the first few were IUIs but even so  

My first cycle trying for sibling gave a positive test on clearblue and negative on clinic test and subsequent negative tests - I really feel something happened on that attempt as symptoms were quite strong and then eased off, this was ICSI long protocol.  2nd attempt - new donor didn't feel positive right from the off - our worst fertilisation ever and hardly any symtpoms and negative. This attempt - new clinic, new protocol,  local to home so stress reduced considerably through reduced travel. I added in more supplements, acupuncture and felt very calm throughout. Our best ever fertilisation - 12 eggs and all fertilised, we got 2 to blast - the rest gradually declined and none were strong enough to freeze, we have never got to blast before and they were pretty good blasts. Quite strong symptoms early in the 2ww - including cooking some food making me feel sick (never had that before), coffee (decaff) tasting weird, along with cramps etc. As I was on pregnyl for luteal support had to wait for bloods as any test would be positive - this was the worst part of all - waiting for the call after the Monday blood test was horrendous - my levels had slightly declined. 

I, so far, have always got a decent number of eggs (more than 10 typically) and respond well to drugs - this time was short protocol, cetrotide cycle and again responded really well, good lining etc. etc. AMH 6.4, AFC - 16.  Felt really positive and have taken this negative really hard, we are having counselling and in a couple of weeks have a joint session to talk through what we do from here. 

I am very tired of it all but don't feel ready to give up yet but just don't know which way to turn - investigations, donor eggs (with donor sperm already would be very hard to consider this)??  Or is just a numbers game as I have responded well, create decent embies? 

Thank you ladies 
xxx





I just feel strongly that on 2 of these cycles implantation at some level had occured - one I have some proof of (with the positive test) and this time I believe something happened. Obviously I have had a pregnancy but am wondering if something can have changed since?? if implantation is happening but then something is happening/stopping it - what could this mean?


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## jules40:)x (Jun 15, 2011)

Not sure I can offer anything constructive but didn't want to read and run.  I guess at some point you need to decide if, by carrying on, you are taking something away from LO by continuing  - lots of children are happy only children esp if they have lots of extended family. 

That said we are trying again .......... all I can say is good luck in your decision xx


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## Ellie.st (Mar 11, 2005)

Hello

Sorry to see about all the problems you have had. Have you had/considered having tests to see if any problem can be found? In the Starting Out/investigations board there is a list of tests, some of which could perhaps be done by your GP although others, like immune tests, would have to be done at a specialist clinic. I think sometimes it is just down to it being a numbers game but on the other hand it is worth checking to see if there is some problem which could be dealt with. I had a raft of tests done after my second IVF BFN and almost 10 years ttc - they came back clear and gave me encouragement to keep trying a bit longer (which paid off for me, as you can see from my profile).

Good luck

Ellie


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## da1sy (Jun 30, 2007)

Hi tiny 

we have similar profiles - I still haven't done it and probably just one more crack at it but whilst some may view me as desperate or unrealistic I have been complimented by a top gynocologist on how determined I am   

have you done any immune tests and hidden c tests - I would recommend speaking to Peny at Serum - for me it is now a case of feeling like I have tried everything - my latest discovery was endometriosis all over my ovaries which definitely effects fertility. 

My main rule is that my tx does not effect my gorgeous son - so far its actually resulted in more holidays and family time for him - and my drive always is to get him a sibling if possible. 

Only you will know if its time to consider other options - maybe get some second opinions on OE tactics and follow your heart.

good luck

Ax


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## buzzbee (Nov 15, 2006)

Hi Tiny

So sorry for all that you are going through at the moment : can really understand where you are coming from    as our profiles seem similar too.  Our first attempts for a sibling were Natural FETs - involving no drugs. I was sure I  felt symptoms that something was happening, and given I'd not had any drugs at all, I was sure implantation was happening. Unfortunately this was a BFN - as was the next FET.  

We moved house, so started an ICSI cycle at a new clinic - this time on the short protocol. 
This  unfortunately resulted in early misscarriage / chemical    (however you want to define it). 
At the review my consultant suggested a hysteroscopy before another ICSI cycle, and mentioned  maybe steriods / heparin. (but then suggested we leave the steriods/heparin if the next cycle failed).
I had the hysteroscopy but nothing found to hint at what could be stopping implanation, although I think from memory the Consultant saying that having it can be beneficial and to try and start the cycle quite close to having the procedure performed.  I had the hysteroscopy in Sept 2012 and our next ICSI cycle started in Nov which gave us our much wanted BFP.  No one can say whether the hysteroscopy helped or it was 'our turn this time', but thought I'd share incase a hysteroscopy is one avenue you could explore.

Wishing you loads of luck with your decision.


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## Tiny21 (Jul 24, 2007)

Hi there
Thank you for your kind messages.

Buzzbee - that is really interesting re the hysteroscopy - did the clinic do it? Did it cost you? Was it painful? I will ask about one! What kind of drugs did you have on your successful cycle? Huge congrats xx

A - we had our review on Friday and doc has agreed would do intralipids and an alternative to clexane - he isn't saying it will help but doesn't feel it would do any harm. He is confident that there chlamydia test is thorough enough and feels that if we went this way we are taking eveything we would if any issues are found without needing the tests - which sort of makes sense  I will always now be on max stimms anyway and my body responded well to the drugs so they would do the same in that respect. *Ellie* - based on what the doc said he doesn't feel tests would show anything that the drug regime wouldn't deal with - I appreciate its not quite that simple though.

Jules - the counsellor raised a similar point which I hadn't consciously considered re our little boy. I do not believe he is suffering at all from it - yes we are not having holidays like maybe we would have but we travel to see family regularly and we make sure he has all sorts of experiences. Yes, during tx it's hard and because we don't have local family we sometimes have to add extra nursery days in or ask friends to look after him but tbh he loves that! He is really caring and thoughtful when we are having tx but I honestly don't believe he suffers. I have thought about it as that is the last thing I would want to happen. Yes we have missed some family events because of the timing but that can happen for all sorts of reasons can't it. When are you thinking of going again?

Thank you everyone, it's so cruel this journey isn't it 
xxxx


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## sanfrancisco (May 15, 2010)

Tiny-sending   to you and was in your position 18 months ago.Having 1 child doesn't ease your longing for another.We got lucky after 2 failed fresh and 1 fet cycle and I was really getting depressed and desperate because I was getting plenty of eggs,good fertilization rates and transfer of high quality embryos .Our tactic was to change clinics,add immunes(raised nk cells)have a hysteroscopy and pray!!!As you can see we got there in the end and I was 40 when I gave birth.Maybe it is a numbers game but it's a damn expensive and stressful numbers game,so I would definitely push for a hysteroscopy and immunes,
In hindsight treatment did affect my ds and I really regret that ,my sister even told me to think long and hard about what I was doing as she felt ds was'nt happy as I wasnt happy.It all worked out for us so it was worth it,DS loves his little brother,I am happier and feel a huge burden has been lifted in being able to provide a sibling for ds.May I add that I am still broody ,it seems an inbuilt mechanism to reproduce,but can safely say my ivf days are over.
Good luck and I hope to hear some good news soon,pm me any time if you need any info.This journey is so confusing,hard,stressful and can drive you to the edge cant it(and it doesnt help when people who have as many children as they have wanted tell you how lucky you are to have 1 etc,used to make my blood boil )xxx


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## Tiny21 (Jul 24, 2007)

Thank you very much and congratulations to you. 

I have just emailed the clinic with loads of questions, not included the hysteroscopy one quite yet but I will! They must love me! What immunes did you have? 
Thank you x
xxx


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## sanfrancisco (May 15, 2010)

I had everything,IVIG,steroids,clexane,prontogest.IVIG is a blood product so I was a bit wary,but intralipids do the same thing and is cheaper.We just did what the clinic recommended.Have you had your thyroid checked? mine was checked after a failed cycle and was found to be hypothyroid and have antithyroid antibodies.Your tsh should be between 1-2 if ttc and if not you should be given thyroxine.Your gp should be able to do this saving you a few pennies.I don't know where you live and financially how much you are willing/able to spend,but I can recommend the argc in london,mega stressful,expensive and was definitely a last resort clinic for us,we decided to have 1 go there(no funds left)and if negative move on with counselling and a lot of anti depressants for me I think  .I travelled from north wales,it was doable,train daily in the week and travelodge at weekends,felt guilty for dragging ds with me everyday but he quite enjoyed going on the train and going to the natural history museum etc.I also had to go off sick from work,was mad enough to travel straight to london after a 12 hour nightshift one day so decided that this was more important.
I really feel for you and can relate to how your feeling,I remember my head was spinning,did'nt know where to start and felt as though there were so many hurdles in this process.xx


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## jules40:)x (Jun 15, 2011)

Tiny we are cycling again now, forgive me I did not mean to suggest that you LO was suffering in any way sorry if it came across that way xx

Our clinic, and many others now, do an endo scratch before you cycle - it was £100 extra but encourages an antibody reaction and has been seen to improve implantation and reduce the chance of miscarriage. It is a similar idea to the hystocospy but a little less severe. 

Keep us posted on your journey xx


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## Sushi Lover (Oct 16, 2012)

Hello Tiny,

Sorry to hear you've been through the mill. It's such a tough journey. I do ultimately think it's a numbers game, but there are some things you can do to help.

Some things to look at from my experiences... other girls may have already mentioned them in part...

- *Immune Testing*... NK (Natural Killer) Cells and other Chicago Immune Testing (sent to Chicago as very specialised testing...about £700) - intravenous intrallipids and steroids can help
- *Hystoroscopy*... to detect any fibroids, old scar tissue, polyps and endometriosis - may need removing or lining scrapping away (I believe the Serum Hysto is more in-dept than the UK version)
- *Infection Testing*... this is a specialised area for Serum in Greece as they test from AF blood and tissue. The hidden C test especially useful as I've heard about girls that have a negative result from Chlamydia swab test, but positive for hidden C (it detects old traces of infection in the womb and is easily treatable with antibiotics)
- *Endometrial Scratch*.. to aid implantation (about £250) ..the injury/scratches to the lining promote white cell growth and immune system cells ...used for multiple IVF failures
- *Neupogen Uterine Wash*... to aid implantation and thicken lining - a protein that aids white cell growth
- *Embryo Glue*... a 'medium' used to add nutrients and energy sources to optimise embryo growth and implantation
- *EEVA* - Embryo Evaluation Viability Assessment... films the embryos 24/7 and continually follows their progress to spot any imperfections when forming. Sometimes the 'snapshot' view the embryologists have isn't enough and there can be problems with the embryos which is why they don't implant.

Of course, last but not least, you have the option of *donor eggs*... not ideal I know, but it could be your 'last chance saloon'. I know it's mine!

Keep us in touch with your progress xxx


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## buzzbee (Nov 15, 2006)

Hi Tiny

Just to answer your questions r.e Hysteroscopy.... I was extemely lucky in that this was performed by the NHS (rather than paying out the £1600 or so fee that my clinic were going to charge). My GP ,bless her, referred us for the procedure - was turned down by the PCT, but she appealed on our behalf and they said yes. It was performed at a different hospital (although that process did take a few months)
It wasn't painful at all : had a GA so didn't have a clue what was going on. Afterwards just some slight bleeding and a slightly heavier AF.
All previous ICSI cycles I was on Gonal F, but for this last cycle my Consultant switched to Menopur. I was having acupuncture sessions for both of these cycles.
Here's the summary from our 2 fresh attempts at a sibling :
*Jan 2012* Gonal F short protocol with cetrocide : 8 eggs collected, 4 suitable for ICSI and all 4 fertilised. 2 transferred (none to freeze). 
*Nov 2012* Menopur short protocol with cetrocide : 9 collected, 6 suitable for ICSI and all 6 fertilised. 2 transferred (none to freeze)

Hope this helps xxxxx


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## Tiny21 (Jul 24, 2007)

Thank you both, I am feeling we may as well take up the fragmin and intralipids that the clinic is offering. I will ask about the hysteroscopy as well, OH gets private health so that might cover it? 


This cycle was cetrocide, merional, letrozole, 12 eggs, all fertilised 2 blasts transferred, none to freeze. 


Lots to consider   
Xxx


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