# Donor conception cited on birth certificate- revival of Bill



## roze (Mar 20, 2004)

Dear all,  I understand that this issue is not closed, and that there are proposals afoot to amend the wording to the previous proposed bill which wanted full disclosure on birth certificates, in this forthcoming parliamentary session.  This means that this may happen albeit in a different way.  I dont have many details but will do some research and post when I have found something.

I think we should all be mindful of this and make our stand, perhaps arrange to meet privately with relevant MP's to make our case. 

roze


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## three_stars (Jan 19, 2006)

I had a feeling this was not going to go away so easily. Please do keep us all informed.  This is a very serious and important issue for all of us, our children and really for all of society.  No one should be forced by government to be labeled or stigmatized at birth in this way.  Nor should parents be manipulated.  There was much good discussion about this before and I think it would be a good thing to keep a thread open on this subject.

bonnie/b123


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## Milly40 (May 8, 2007)

I agree with you ladies, its up to the parents to discuss this with their child if and when.......I agree we should keep an open thread on the matter.......we will not be beaten.. 

  Love Milly


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## longbaygirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for keeping your eye on this Roze. Truly outrageous.

*edited... text removed by Tony.
Please be careful with your wording


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## Morvern (May 16, 2005)

Gosh I'm really curious to hear what longbaygirl said.......

Thanks for this, Roze. It's really important that we keep an eye on it.


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## longbaygirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Oh dear - I've been 'policed'!

I wish someone could police Olivia.......................................


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## Grumpygirl (Oct 24, 2004)

I thought she was of the same opinion as us on this one? I also thought this issue had gone away... grrrr!!

I'm all for an open thread on this though as I firmly believe any donor conceived adults should find out the right way about their origins. 

xx


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## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Just in case anyone should be misled into thinking that DC Network believes that parents should be 'forced' to share donor information with their children through the annotation of birth certificates, here is a link of a notice I have posted in a couple of other threads on FF.

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117533.msg1661445#msg1661445


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## longbaygirl (Aug 19, 2004)

My difficulty with the DCN is that they do not support parental choice. - ie. those parents who have decided not to tell, or to tell much later. 

I don't need the DCN to make those decisions for me, or to lobby Government to force a particular view on me. 

As a mother, I will decide if, or when, to tell or not.


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## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Olivia - thanks for the link but it still doesn't really tell us exactly what the DCN's position is. Please spell it out for us nice and clear: What is the DCN's position, why has it come to that conclusion and what action are you going to take to support that decision? (BTW it's OK to say you are still considering your opinion, we understand that 'policy' requires a great deal of thought.) 
I don't mean to sound aggressive (and I apologise if I do) but people look to the DCN as an authority figure in this debate, tell us exactly what you think.

And now for my opinions! Personally I have so many problems with this.....
DD was conceived with the help of an anonymous donation but this fact is not recorded on her birth certificate. We still have 'sibling sperm' reserved and have been told it's OK to use that (indeed I'm currently in a 2ww having used some!) We wont change to another donor because we don't think it would be 'fair' for DD not to trace her donor while another child would (even though we agree in principle with the end to anonymity) If this 2ww were to result in a BFP and the registrar asked if 'it' was conceived by donor conception I think I might lie to ensure 'equality' between my children. (Regardless of whether or not you think I'd be right to do this I think you do have to accept that some  parents will take this action.) In order to cover my breach of the law I will then be forced to lie to other professionals who might take an interest in my child and this might put their health at risk. All this might then put me into the position where I might not choose to tell my children of the nature of their conception until such time when they can be trusted to keep the secret and not dob mum and dad in. An action which I think would be wrong BTW, I think children are much better off knowing from the start but that's MPO. Anyway, here's me and DH, well educated, (generally) articulate individuals who actually agree with telling and the end to anonymity and this action could make us turn all that aside. 
So problem 1. I think this will encourage secrecy and deception, it will discourage telling, particularly at an early age.
Problem 2. I think this action will mean that more women needing donor sperm or eggs will go abroad for treatment so that their treatment is not on record. This is OK if your go to a reputable clinic, but there are people out there who can and will think nothing of fleecing a desperate woman with less that 'gold standard treatment'. This will put womens health at risk.
Problem 3. "It is a wise man who knows his father". I believe there is many a genetic study that has had to be cancelled because it risked showing that individuals were not genetically related to the man they called Dad and neither they, nor 'Dad' (and possibly not even their mums given sufficient alcohol!) realised this. No one will suggest asking mums to swear that they did not have sexual relations with another man in the month prior to conception and even if they did ask would you be sure of an honest answer? THERE IS NO PARITY with natural conception, this action would make donor conceived children look like freaks. 
Problem 3. Let us not forget that a birth certificate is not private property. If someone other than DD wants to look up her birth certificate they can. Now I can't see why she would want to conceal that fact but I don't have a glass ball and I don't know what might come up in the future.

OK I'm sure given time I could come up with even more reasons, but lets stop at those 3 for now. What will I do about it? I'll try to knock all that into a sensible letter to my MP and may be even send it to other local MPs. Is there anything else I could do? Why don't you let me know?

love to all
Lizi.x


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## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Sorry, I forgot to say that I truly sympathise with some of the campaigners who are trying to bring this change about. I've read many of the articles and I really get the feeling that they consider themselves to be betrayed, which must be a terrible thing to feel of one's own parents. But on the whole this seems to be because they found out 'late'. I believe that if a child knows from the start they wont feel this way but forcing parents to put it on birth certificates wont encourage 'telling' from the start. Furthermore what child thinks to ask for a copy of their FULL birth certificate (if I understand correctly the information will only appear there) rather than the short version? Come on, how many people even know there is a difference? I'm not even sure what you would need one for. 
I guess what I'm trying to say is that forcing parents to disclose the information on the birth certificate does not ensure those children are 'told' early, if at all and most importantly (and I say this directly to the campaigners who's articles I have read) *it will not heal your pain*.

love and hugs
Lizi.x


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## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Thank you LiziBee for asking about DC Nework's policy on annotation of birth certificates.

Following an email survey of our members and a meeting of our Policy Committee, our position on this subject is that we oppose, certainly for the forseeable future, the marking of birth certificates to show that a donor has contributed to a child's conception.  It may be that at some time in the future when openness is universal and infertility has completely lost it's stigma, people may feel that it is appropriate for the fact of donation or even the name of the biological mother or father to appear.  In the meantime, change has happened very fast...anonymity has only ended very recently, the move towards openness is gathering pace but is by no means universal and we feel this proposal is too much, too soon.  Although we have a clear belief (along with all relevant professionals) that 'telling' early is in the best interests of the child and the whole family, we would always want those parents who did not feel able to do this, to be free to change their minds and 'tell' at a later date.  If they had not declared that their child is donor conceived at registration (and many of our members, all committed to openness, said they would probably lie) the fact that they have committed a criminal offence by failing to do so, would be a strong disincentive to 'tell' later.  We also believe that a child/adult's privacy could be compromised by the information being on their birth certificate - and long certificates are increasingly being asked for as we as a society become more 'identity aware' as a result of international terrorism.  (Our own adult children, who have been open with their friends, school and university, are adamant that they wish to be able to choose who they share this information with.)
In a practical sense, legislation of this sort is likely to be not only counter-productive but unenforcable and this may well be the reason that any amendments put forward do not end up in the final Bill, but this will not stop the highly articulate and angry adult donor offspring who feel they have been wronged by their parents and society, from lobbying MPs and influential others.

DC Network will also be lobbying and using any power and influence we may have - and we are very well respected at the Department of Health - to prevent this from coming about.  Writing to MPs is certainly a good idea.  Send a letter now and then follow it up when the Bill actually comes into the House of Commons.  We are likely to put together a template for our members and I'll signal this on FF so that anyone on these boards can take this up if they choose to do so.

Hope this makes our position clear.  Happy to give any clarification if necessary.
Olivia


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## LiziBee (Aug 24, 2004)

Thanks for that Olivia, much appreciated.
Lizi.x


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## three_stars (Jan 19, 2006)

As LizBee pointed out, putting this on a birth certificate (besides being absurd) does not mean the child is told early or at all.  I never saw my own birth certificate until well into adolescence as I did not need to.  I am sure my parents could have managed to hide it from me until adulthood if need be.  And it seems more or less important that a child knows much earlier then the teenage years if you are telling at all.

Also I can not see why they would propose to mark the birth certificates with the very private info of "donor " egg or sperm if it were not marking who the donor was, which is what these "pained" donor conceived adults are saying they need to know.  

Honestly I hope this whole crazy idea goes away as I think that is in the best interest of privacy and families.

Olivia, thank you for your clarification on DCN stand and what the members are feeling, which is very helpful. 
Is is possible to know if your husband feels the same way on this and if we have HFEA behind it as well?

Bonnie/ b123


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## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Bonnie
Walter is completely in support of DC Network policy in a personal capacity.  As far as I know the HFEA have not discussed the issue.
Olivia


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## three_stars (Jan 19, 2006)

Well I am relieved he feels this way too.  I would think the HFEA would be quite involved as well in a topic like this; that is why I asked.
Thanks for the reply.

Bonnie/ b123


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## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Dear All
Follow the progress of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill through the parliamentary process from this link
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2007-08/humanfertilisationandembryology.
html
Best
Olivia

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that Fertilityfriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## olivia m (Jun 24, 2004)

Dear All
See my posts over on Donor Egg/Sperm on debate happening TODAY 10th December in House of Lords and what you can do. Not too late if you see this message after the 10th.
http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=122342.0

Olivia


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## roze (Mar 20, 2004)

My view is it is plainly not in any childs best interests to put such private information on a birth cert that can be seen by so minor officials and administrative intermediaries who have no business with that info. It is now common practice for agencies to request the long form whereas previously the short form was accepted. 

The recent debacle about child benefit info shows that no information is safe especially in government hands. There is also the recent court case involving a sperm donor who was made to pay child support. Are known donors exempt from this in the legislation if they go through a clinic?  I suspect that this will have implications even though there may be some distinction made in law. Everyone knows that laws  can be repealed and challenged.

The intention may be to protect the donor conceived child, however its my view that this will simply make people avoid having to do it and resort to other means, such as using covert private  methods or going abroad. I think this simply will be the death knell for UK donor conception. 

There is no substitute for education and awareness however it must remain the decision of the parents to tell, as it remains a parents choice on most other aspects of child rearing. I fail to see how this will encourage telling also unless its somehow done in schools as a mandatory measure, which would be equally appalling.

roze


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## fringegirl (Apr 26, 2007)

I agree with Roze. I fully intend to tell me babies when they are young about their conception and would never withhold such important information from them. On the other hand I do not want such personal informantion on a birth cert - a document which is indeed seen by many minor officials. This information should be kept personal to the parents and offspring of donor children.

I have made my GP, midwife and consultant aware that I used donor eggs as I am aware that should there be an complications etc at the birth this information might be needed. 

I have told close friends and family of our treatment but do not see why this information should be on a birth cert. This document is often produced as ID etc for job interviews and passports and many other reasons.


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## roze (Mar 20, 2004)

Hi again,

The other thing I meant to say was that, for parents wishing to tell their children, there will be a time and a place.  Making it so public from day one will guarantee that someone else will tell them first, perhaps out of mischief, malice, or just plain ignorance. There will be no control over when they are told.
This is hardly a good thing.  I want to be able to tell my child at a time when she is ready to listen and understand.

I always remember when young, my mother ' idly' gossiping at home  about a child in my class who was adopted shortly after birth. I went to school the next day and asked this girl about it, basically I felt it was unusual and I felt like being mischievous about her ' difference'. She did not know. We were both 9 years old. Now I think back at how horrific this untimely revelation must have been for her and her parents. They did not want to tell her earlier due to the circumstances in which her parents died, which they would also have had to explain to her.

This sort of thing will happen if such information is disclosed on birth certificates.  

Someone from an adoption organisation who supported this legislation told me that if there was nothing to be ashamed of about donor conception, then why should I object. I felt that giving this person an answer would be akin to trying to explain nuclear physics to a ballet dancer, ie they clearly did not have the comprehension ability to understand how, as a mother, such an action is very against my basic parenting and protective instincts.

I intend to write to the House of Lords in respect of this issue and make the above points. I do hope others will do the same. From a debate I saw televised recently, Baroness Julia Newberger and Lord Robert Winston may be good people to lobby as they can argue informatively and reasonably against ' extremist actions.


roze 


PS No offence to ballet dancers!


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