# New, 39, slight panic, which way to turn



## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hello everyone,

I posted last night on another board, and was advised to repost here and on the singles board.  Sorry for the long post:

I'm almost 39, single and have only just realised with a bang that I may be sub-fertile because of my age and previous abdominal surgery.  Feel silly to have reached this age and have had my head in the sand the whole time thinking that it would be ok to start trying at 40 and that IVF was so easy.
I'm so pleased to be recommended this amazing site.  I've been researching lots but there's so much information that my head's spinning.  Any recommendations would be so very welcome.

About me: regular periods, have had day 21 test, waiting to have FHS test. I have some savings but of course don't know how much I am going to need - so I need to economise from the start because I would like to have 2 babies.

I see this as my best course of action (what do you think?):

1. Do 'One stop assessment' & chromosome test for genetic disorders at a Create clinic at Wimbledon asap. 

2. Find sperm donor.  I joined free-sperm-donations-worldwide and got so many emails from men.  However, I've got collywobbles - mainly as to safety, scary reports about men saying they wanted artificial insemination, then actually being sleezy and trying for sex. 

Otherwise use an anonymous donor, frozen sperm.  Does anyone know of a sperm bank where the donor would want contact with the child before age 18?  I guesss I'm hoping for the child to know its father.  

3.  After 4 attempts at artificial insemination, seek soft IVF and later full IVF.

4. If that fails, then try for surrogacy, probably abroad.  These are early days in my planning, but I've initially considered India as I'd be able to afford IVF, if that fails I'd have the embies in the country, would try for a surrogate.  Then again, maybe I'm jumping the gun and it would be better to go for IVF in the cheaper countries in Europe (East Europe?).

I've found the Clearblue ovulating predictor kit - however, it's only for 7 days.  Should I be testing every day to build up a picture? Would you recommend any other test and has anyone used the saline predictor tests?

Sorry for so many questions.  I would be really grateful for any advice. 

Sending my best wishes to all the people trying and dreaming.

Roisin


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Hi Roisin, 

And welcome  

You're in the right place here - there's lots of us single girls at all stages of the process so hopefully you'll get answers to all your questions over time. As you can see we have lots of different threads, so feel free to jump in anywhere to chat, ask questions etc

It's hard to generalise about what to expect so I'll give you my personal experience. I started with IUI at 37 yrs old. All my test results were good, no apparent reason why I could not conceive apart from lack of sperm. In the past 12 months I've had 3 IUI, 2 IVF, 1 FET - this last one resulted in a pregnancy but it was not viable and I had to have an ERPC at 8 weeks. So from a position of thinking it wouldn't be an issue, I find that despite good test results and regular periods, I am technically infertile. I'll be trying again in January, but I'm starting to think that it might be that I have old eggs and I need to move to egg donation as well. But let's see, will try again with my own eggs first.

So that's me. But there are others of similar age who have been lucky enough to get pregnant on first IVF. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong girls) that anyone 38+ has had success with IUI yet?

Success rates for medicated IUI for our age are around 8-10%, for IVF around 30-35%....depending on your personal circumstances, but those are averages. 

Very briefly on cost - in the UK around £900-1000 for medicated IUI if you're in London, cheaper outside. IVF around £5000 in London including all drugs etc. Much cheaper in some places overseas (eg Czech Republic which is where I'm going next....and many of the other girls already there)
So yes, you'll need some money saved up as this is not a cheap business at all!

Re donors, most of us are using anonymous donors through clinics. In the UK all donors through clinics agree to be known to the child at 18. In Czech they remain anonymous. To get round this, for those of us who want a donor who is willing to be known, we import to Czech from European Sperm Bank in Denmark. Ask if you want details of this.
The only way to get a donor who agrees to be known to the child before 18 is to find a friend or use one of the websites as you have already started doing. There are many pitfalls here - I won't try to highlight them all here, but have a look at the post Olivia put up from our resident lawyer Natalie on things to beware of with known donors. Of course there are success stories but this is an option which needs very careful thought and clear agreement on both sides before you go ahead. With clinic donors it's much more straightforward, but of course means the child will not have that person in their life. 

I'm not sure what the one stop assessment covers at Create, but yes, your first port of call is to get some tests done to make sure your FSH levels are OK, your tubes aren't blocked and there are no other obvious problems. Chromosome tests may be a  bit too much at this stage, but again I'm not too sure what that involves, so perhaps it is a good idea if you have some concerns. 

Meantime, monitor your cycle so you know when you are ovulating (you don't test everyday, but rather between about days 10 and 17 of your cycle - until you pick up your surge - do this for a few months to see if you ovulate at same time each month)

Just realised the time so got to go, but will come back later and post some more thoughts. Also some book recommendations etc. When you are first starting out there are so many questions and whilst those of us who have been doing this for a while can offer our thoughts, ultimately there are lots of things you will need to work through and decide for yourself

Anyway, glad you've found us, more later,
Suitcase
x


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi Roisin and welcome -think suity has just about got it covered..
I'm also having treatment in Czech but have gone straight to IVf and bypassed IUI.  This was due to fertility problems though (didn't realsie I had them!)
I've imported my sperm from Denmark - it is a personal thing - whether to go for known or anon - no right or wrong answer there.
Good luck 
Mini x x


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## Maya7 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Roisin

Suity's given you some good points to think about.  The tests can be time consuming and if I was at the beginning I would just go and sort them out asap.  (HIV, HEP B, ... there is a list somewhere of all the tests needed and advisable) Hycosy is also recommended to see if tubes are clear...

You seem to have moved from the thinking to the planning phase ... I would also suggest that you think about the waiting lists at the clinics close to you who will treat single women.  I think it is increasingly common in Britain for single women to be treated but availabililty of sperm since the anonymous option ended  has been restricted in some areas.... Ireland is still a bit behind and where there are possibilities for single women to be treated, the lists mean that time is against you.  It is good to have a think about whether you need an open donor (available to be contacted by child at age 1 or will go the anonymous route.  This will help you decide which clinic or where... I know a number of women who have chosen to go to Reprofit in Czech Republic as IVF is cheaper and no waiting lists if you use your own eggs.  I switched from LWC to Reprofit as time was marching on and I couldnt afford to do IVF in London (and have change for nappies for first year!).  Also I wanted a wider variety of information on the donor so imported from ESB in Denmark.

Hope some of the above makes sense...Dont overload yourself too much ... I often thought some computer whizz kid on this site could design a computer programme that narrowed the options of clinics depending on needs and priorities (eg. anonymous, own egg, donor sperm, geographical location, cost etc..) and your best option pops out.. (no pun intended) .. or maybe a Xmas fertility game similar to monopoly?...

Best of luck
Maya


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## Lou-Ann (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi Roisin, some of the other wonderful ladies on here have already given you good advice. 
Just wanted to welcome you to the group and wish you all the best for your journey  

Lou-Ann x


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## lulumead (May 29, 2008)

hi roisin

welcome to the group!  Suity covered most of it...I'm just starting out, had one IUI about to do number 2...and might be kidding myself about fertility as periods and ovulation very regular and hormone levels good,....but not always what makes it work!  Good to get tests done to know more about yourself...sand i found monitoring my cycle really useful, esp ovulation.

good luck with it all...and look forward to sharing.

xx


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Roisin so glad that you found us welcome
L x


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## going it alone (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi Roisin,
Welcome. I think that the other have covered the main points. I agree that the blood test result are they key factors, more than age or regular periods. I have always had irregular periods but had great FSH results. My consultant told me I had very young ovaries (I didn't know whether to say thank you or not). I was lucky enough to get pregnant on my first DIUI so bucked the statistics. I think that of you are concerned about the march of time, to find a donor and then wait for the six month quarantine period (my clinic had a nine month quarantine period), would that be a negative point for you? 
Best of luck whichever route you take. Whatever you do and wherever you go I'm sure they'll be someone else going the same way.
Love
Sam x


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## winky77 (Nov 27, 2007)

hi Roisin, 

I think you've had lots of great info from some of the others so won't overload you with anymore!  I just wanted to say Welcome and to share one thing about the 'planning'.....being someone who likes to have a clear precise plan I have learnt over the last year that in this TTC game there are so many variables and hurdles that plans can never really be that firm.  A big learning for me has been to accept I can't know what exactly will happen and in what order.....and I've tried really hard to tune into how I am feeling at each stage in order to help me decide next steps.  I have had so many friends ask me questions like 'how many more goes will you give it?' and 'when are you going to keep trying until?' ....I've accepted I just can't answer those questions....not yet anyway! 

I look forward to getting to know you on the boards.  Just ask anything. 

..Winky


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Good morning everyone,

Omigod - thank you everyone for your support - all I can think is wow.  Suitcase especially, thank you so much for taking the time to explain so much. 

I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what I think I should do, probably straight to IVF.  Still undecided re donor - have asked one friend, and plan to ask 1 or 2 others - changing my mind by the day - jeepers. Maybe with a donor from the European Sperm Bank - def want my children to have a yes donor.  Shame they don't post adult pictures of the donors, wonder if they really keep track of the donor until the kid is 18.  I have read the pitfalls by Natalie - some very good advice.  If anyone would recommend some books, I'd be grateful.  

Re the one stop assessment, this is what Create say they test for: 
"The detailed 3D – Doppler ultrasound scan is used to examine the following:
Ovarian Reserve:The volume of your ovaries,Antral Follicle Count (i.e. egg sacs) in your ovaries, The Blood Flow to your ovaries, Identification of ovarian cysts that can affect ovulation, 
Assessment of factors affecting implantation:Thickness and appearance of the lining of your womb,The inside cavity of your womb, The blood flow to the lining of your womb, Identification of  fibroids or other problems that can affect implantation
Tubal Patency:The HycoSy test to check for tubal patency**
A blood test for anti mullerian blood hormone levels may be required

Unfortunately they can't see me on my next days 8 - 15, so I have to wait till end Jan.  Contacted Reprofit and may just go straight to them if they have availability.  Wow, they answered my email straight away - kind of unused to that here in London!

The chromosome test at Create is 144 (got no pound sign on my computer) - takes 21 days to get results I believe, and it's a blood test.  Not sure how many of the inheritable genetic diseases it tests for.    

Do clinics ask me, the receiver, for HIV, Hep B etc results?  I believe it takes 3 months to know you don't have HIV, so should I get straight down a GUM clinic?  

It's a rollercoaster - was crying yesterday. feeling positive again this morning after all your support.  

Hope you all have a lovely day

x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Hi Roisin,

I have had so much support from people here that I try to return it when I can....I probably also have too much time on my hands and spend most of it on here/******** rather than working!!

Yes, Reprofit are very efficient, always reply quickly and are cost effective. Downside is need to travel to Czech for the treatment, and I am also having some problems getting Czech prescription filled here in UK. So there are some logistical challenges but in terms of the quality of service and the price, it seems they are way ahead of most of the UK clinics. Note they are closed 19th December to 12th January, so if you want to book in for a consultation in January, do it before Friday or you'll have to wait to the 12th. Not necessary to have initial face to face consultation, you can do it all by email - but you may feel more comfortable going over and talking to them. Worth checking out what tests they can do for you too - might be cheaper than UK. 

Yes, clinics do ask for all the basic tests - HIV, Hep B and C, chlamydia etc.
I got all my initial tests done by my GP (previous GP who was much more accommodating than this one...) - that's the best option if it's open to you because it's free. Don't think there is the 3 month thing with HIV any more - at least for me it was just one blood test, results a week later, all clear....

I asked ESB how they can be sure they will keep in touch with the donor and they said they had good record keeping in place and if they go out of business, they have plans in place for those records to be held somewhere. But at the end of the day they can't guarantee anything - it may be when the child turns 18 the donor simply cannot be found. The way I figure it, at least I gave the child the option - if they turn out not to be able to find the person (moved abroad, died etc), then at least they know they have done all they can to find out. Also ESB does give quite a lot of info about the donor so even if they never manage to track them down in person, at least they have quite a lot of info about them anyway....

OK, so the Create thing is basically an ultrasound and a hycosy (they flush blue dye through your tubes to check for blockages) - both of which would be recommended before you start so I'd go with it - but maybe also ask Reprofit if they can do if you are seriously thinking of going there.

Can't really comment on the chromosome test - I guess it could be useful, but then again, it depends what it identifies and what you would be able to do with the results - maybe ask them a bit more about that. I'm not aware of anyone here who has had this done - girls?

Right, back to work...glad you're feeling more positive today. This is definitely a roller coaster journey. Winky summed it up really well when she said you just have to go with the flow a bit....I think most of us are a bit uncomfortable with that. We're the sort of people who like to be in control, and it's hard to let go of that - but you have to in order to stay sane!

Good luck!
Suitcase
x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

I hope I can be of some support to people too sometime - at the moment I'm a bit wet behind the ears I think.

Really like the sound of Reprofit: it's just the travel thing may be a tad tricky.  I'll prob have IVF, low-dose drugs if I could, which would mean monthly attempts.  But it all depends on the results of the FHS test I guess. I work Mon - Wed so have some flexibility, but it I really don't know that I should tell my employer that I'm going for IVF.  They are a large employer, people are worried avout their jobs, and part-timers might be first out the door. 

Thanks for the head up about Reprofit closing over xmas. Will email them tonight and then try again to call tomorow. 

Regarding being able to trace the father at 18, I think that giving our children the chance to trace is the best option.  

Well, I've got to dash, let me know if I can be of help to anyone. 

best of luck

Roisin
x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Roisin,

Know what you mean re work. I also work for a large organisation and the current financial situation is certainly putting the pressure on. I work full time but am lucky enough to work pretty flexible hours, and can work from home pretty much whenever I want as long as the job gets done. For previous IVFs in London I have not needed to take time off really, just the occasional day's holiday for the EC/ET etc. For this one at Reprofit, I'll be taking a 2 week holiday from work - seemed the best way.

Only 2 people at work know what I am doing, one is not in my team and is more a friend than a colleague. The other is in my extended team but we do not report to the same manager or anything. None of my line managers have any idea that I am doing this and that's the way I intend to keep it. When I get pregnant I will tell them how it came to be (it's known that I am single) but until then, I don't want the complications of it all....and to be honest I quite like that at work no one knows. All my friends and family know and whilst it's great to be able to talk to them and get support, I also quite like having one place where it's just not a topic of conversation and I can pretend, for a while at least, that I don't have fertility problems....

If you mail Reprofit tonight you should get a quick reply - Stepan usually gets back immediately...although I guess this week will be partic busy with the Christmas closure coming up

Suitcase
x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Suitcase,

sorry for the delay in replying, have been hectic with work and other stuff. 

Your work sounds great for flexibility.  Why will you take 2 weeks for the next IVF - does IVF take that long?  It's good that you can talk to your family and friends, I've only told one brother and a handful of friends.  

Well, looks like my FHS test is going to have to be done over xmas - could be a problem as I'll be out of the country.  don' want to wait another month.  Am going with Create for the other tests, cos Reprofit don't do the blue-dye test.  

Do you think I'm crazy to consider not starting IVF for about 4 months?  Until two weeks ago when I had my epiphany, I had planned to do a world trip. Now I'm wondering if 3 months travelling, thinking, relaxing wouldn't be a bad thing - cos I'm never gonna be able to do it this way again if I become a single mum.  I've been wanting to do it for years, but have put it off until now.  I just hope I wouldn't regret it either way.  Could 3 months make that much difference is what a friend said to me last night. 

Are you working right through till Christmas?  I'm flying home on Sunday and am away for about a week.

Roisin x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Hey,

Good to hear from you. I'm taking 2 weeks off for the next IVF because I'm having it in Czech Republic (cheaper than UK). So I fly out there on 19th Jan and back on 28th Jan. So that's almost 2 weeks I need to be out there so have rounded it up to 2 weeks holiday in total. If you have tx in the UK, you don't really need to take any time off at all, just one day for EC and then another half day for ET...plus a few hours here and there for scans (all depends how far away you are from your clinic of course)

Are you in London and home is elsewhere? I'm in Hampshire, my family are all in Surrey/London area, so it's pretty easy for me...no real travel needed at Christmas. Am technically working over Xmas but in practice I won't go into the office and I probably won't be exactly over doing it on the work front if you know what I mean   Majority of my team have young families and will all take 2 weeks off so it's not like they'll be sending me emails or expecting me to do anything. I'm not taking holiday because I want to use my holidays for having IVF instead...

As for your world trip, well, only you can really answer that one. I don't think 3 months will make a major difference to the tx, it's not as if one day your body goes from fertile to not so fertile. But then again, the older we get, the less fertile we are...but that's more year on year than day on day I'm sure! If you feel that it's something you really want and need to do and that you will regret not doing, then you should go. I've been lucky enough to do lots of travelling over the years. I lived in Sydney for nearly 4 years and when I quit my job there to head back home, I took nearly 9 months off and travelled in Aus, NZ, Costa Rica (did some volunteer work) and the Philippines. I also did lots of travelling after uni - took more or less 2 years off before settling into a job. And up until this year (when I stopped because of the ttc) I travelled a lot for work - Europe and beyond, pretty much every 2-3 weeks for 3 years. So I guess I feel that I've had my share of travelling and although I still love to travel and miss it to some extent, I know that I need to stay put and focus on the baby side of things. 
What about financially? Will it put a real pressure on finances if you travel and then have all the expense of fertility tx, or are you OK from that perspective?

I guess you'll have time to think things through over Xmas, hope you manage to come to a decision you're happy with. 

Suitcase
x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Roisin as Suity says it is  personal decision, but I didn't start to have IVF until I was 36-7, my results were fine when I started out and now aged 40 on 5th cycle (£50-£60K lighter with various twists and turns) and now onto DE's I regret not starting earlier.  I also lived abroad but never did the travelling/backpacker thing and I know what I would prefer to do/have and you can travel anytime in your life the world will still be there, I work with a consultant who took 6 months off to travel aged late 50's childless and she said it was her 'late gap year' I thought that it was a great way to look at things

L x


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## chloe99 (Aug 27, 2008)

I am 37.5yrs and the idea of delaying treatment for 3 months at this stage would worry me quite a bit.  The way I see it, it's all downhill from here fertility wise and I don't want to have even more regrets than I do already.  It prob depends on what kind of person you are, but I would look at it this way, if I am successful then my babies will bring me more happiness than my holiday, if I am unsucessful then I can go away between cycles to give my body and heart a little time to recover. 

xx


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Suitcase,

sorry for short reply ... am dashing off to catch plane to Ireland.  That's where the folks are.  Will write properly when I get back.  No internet at my Dad's house, delighted that he even has electricity 
Hope you have a wonderful relaxing Christmas. 

x


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## hopehopehope (Dec 8, 2008)

mini the minx said:


> Hi Roisin and welcome -think suity has just about got it covered..
> I'm also having treatment in Czech but have gone straight to IVf and bypassed IUI. This was due to fertility problems though (didn't realsie I had them!)
> I've imported my sperm from Denmark - it is a personal thing - whether to go for known or anon - no right or wrong answer there.
> Good luck
> Mini x x


Hi Mini - i'm about to start DIUI in manchester, was wondering what the cost and where in Czech, importing form Denmark - what a fab way round!!
hope xxx


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi Hope - we all attend the Reprofit Clinic in Brno - absolutely brilliant!  Not that I've had treatment there yet - was impressed with the consult!
IUI is a lot cheaper there - I believe its approx £100 for IUI and another £100 for the donor sperm - this sperm will be anon.  If you wanted to have a known donor, other members have imported direct to Czech from the european sperm bank which can be found on google.  I had a few hiccups with mine as imported it to the UK for treatment here and am now trying to get it sent to Czech... Winky might be able to help you price wise or Felix.  I know when I looked the IUI vials were approx £260each plus import fees approx £220.  You get a lot of info though and if that's important to you I do recommend it. There's an american site too.  I paid the 100euros first so as I could see all the donor info and took it from there.
Good luck with your treatment...  
Happy New Year
Mini x x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Chloe & L, thanks for the sound advice   there is so much to think about.

hope everybody had a great Christmas

x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

good morning everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book about children of donors (especially anonymous) and how they feel about not knowing their father as they grow up.  Or one about how to negotiate with a known donor.

It's so hard to think straight: one day I feel like I should go to the European Sperm Bank, the next I think I may be in a panic and Mr Right might come along in the next 6 months and I'll still be fertile.  Feeling a bit miz as have just come out of relationsip with a guy who was such a great guy and would be a great dad, except he was a lot younger and not yet ready for kids.  

x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi roisin

We had a book thread http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=123643.0
I would recommend some of the Lisa Saffron books, most are by gay/lesbian press or the single mothers by choice (there is a website and whole movement about this).

I think the 'shall I wait for Mr Right' is a natural feeling that all of us on here have been through, when you move on from that, or realise that you still can have Mr Right, but you may be a package with your child- this has happened to my friend. A few of the girls on here have met a man and put their TTC on hold and given their relationship a go, or gone back to their partners.

Also there is the D'arcy Laine Foundation and PinkParents where there is literature about using assisted conception/known donors etc

L x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Roisin,

Most of the books I've read tend to be more about how to become a single mother by choice, what to think about, steps to go through, how and what to tell the child etc. The Jane Mattes and Mikki Morrissette books are good for this. Louise Sloan has also done a more humorous take on her story (the other two are more handbook/manuel type approaches whereas hers is more autobiography)

As far as I can see, there is limited material available about the feelings of the donor conceived children - although donor insemination has been around for decards, systematic studies of these children are rare and no study has followed a group of children from birth to adulthood to see what, if any impact, being donor conceived has had on them. The DCN (Donor Conception Network) Autumn newsletter prints in full a transcript from their meeting where 7 UK donor conceived children shared their thoughts and feelings. This is an excellent start point and I found it really interesting to read what these children had to say (most of it was very positive although there was only one child with a single mother, the rest were donor conceived but with 2 parents) - if you are not a member of DCN, PM me and I'll email you the document (it's in Adobe Acrobat so you need to have Acrobat reader installed)

There is also a book by Diane Ehrensaft called Mommies, Daddies, Donors, Surrogates (American as you can tell by the 'Mommies' bit...but available from Amazon) which has a chapter entitled How do the Children fare? This is less about the feelings of the children themselves and more a summary of what limited data does exist looking at whether donor conceived children suffer any physical or emotional/social problems due to the way they were conceived (the short answer is we don't really know because data is so limited, but all indications show that "children raised in sperm donor, egg donor and surrogate families are doing as well as children in control groups when it comes to their relationship with their parents, their cognitive development and their social and emotional development" Overall the book is quite hard going, but this chapter in particular helped me to feel more comfortable with what I am doing as it suggests that there is no reason why a donor conceived child should be any less happy/healthy than any other child

Hope this helps. There are no easy answers to any of this, you have to work through it for yourself and be comfortable with your decisions before you move to the next step. For me, I just knew the desire for a child/family was, and is, stronger than the desire for a relationship. Of course I'd rather be doing this with Mr Right, but time is not on my side and if it's a case of doing it this way vs maybe not having a child at all, then for me, it's quite clear. But it's a personal thing and I definitely went through years of dating (speed dating, internet dating etc etc) before I got to this point - so I guess you just have to know when the time is right for you.
And as JJ rightly says, taking this option now does not rule out having a relationship in the future....

Best of luck,

Suitcase
x


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## lulumead (May 29, 2008)

Hi Roisin

I totally know how you are feeling, I constantly flit from day to day thinking maybe I should give finding the right guy more time...then the next day I think well if he's right he won't care about me having a child.  I found all this really hard to deal with even when i got to the point of doing my 1st IUI, had a total meltdown the day before insemination that I was having to do it this way.  Then I figured, at least I have this choice...if I decide to take 6 months out to try and find the right guy then I can, but at least I know everything that is involved and know that I can do it.  One of the books suggested has a good chapter on grieving the childhood dream (i.e. man and babies), which I found really useful.

Now that I'm under way, nearly at the end of 2WW for 2nd IUI, I figure if I'm pregnant it will all be cool and if not then I'll go again, and if mr right comes along too then great.  I am slightly terrified that I might never have sex again! but from what my married friends say...that happens anyway once you've got kids, married or not  

I think its perfectly natural to feel such different emotions on a daily basis, we are undertaking something massive and scary and are made to question in a way that those people who conceive easily in relationships don't have to. And if you've just come out of a relationship  (I had when starting this), then you need to allow yourself to feel sad about that too.

take care


xx


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## indekiwi (Dec 23, 2008)

Hi Roisin,

One other book that I'd add to those already suggested is "Single by Chance, Mothers by Choice" by Rosanna Hertz.  Although written by an academic and framed within a gendered context (so quite complex, formal and analytic in its approach), she interviewed 65 women who used known and unknown donors, and adoption to become single mums. In many cases she interviewed the women twice and explored the way the older children thought and felt about their families.  Their stories are interwoven throughout the book and I have found it very useful, particularly given I already have a son using DIUI.  However, it is a very academic approach - given I have a degree in women's history, I've enjoyed it, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea.

On your other point, when I was trying to conceive the first time around (throughout 2004 / 05) I put dating to one side - my desire to have kids was stronger than my wish to have a partner to do it with, and I felt pretty jaundiced in any case given what I saw as multiple failures following a marriage breakdown.  However, when my son was 18 months old I met a man who not only was happy to take on our 2 for 1 offer, but wanted to have more children with me.  This relationship has not worked out (a long story but for me and my son a lucky escape) and I now find that in the year that I was with this man, my fertility dropped to a point that I now need to consider donor eggs as well as sperm.  (For my last IUI attempt in July 2007 I produced three follicles using mild stimulation with Puregon - a little over a year later I produced two follies and one egg using maximum doses of puregon for a DICSI attempt - it is a bitter pill to swallow if I go down the road of thinking that I wasted 12 months on this bloke - boo hiss!).  Funnily enough, since I already had my son and donor sperm in the bank, I had more confidence in bringing to an end a relationship that wasn't working for me - I wasn't reliant on him for delivery of children and I'd had a chance to assess whether he was the right partner for me and father for my child.  

Believe it or not, I am now being courted by someone I've known for a number of years and who is fully aware of my forthcoming attempt to conceive (and who knows and has fun with my son) ....my head isn't in the right space for another relationship at this point and I am determined to complete my family before focusing on a partner, but it does go to show that having a child / children by using donors is no show stopper with respect to going on and meeting a partner later on.  

Sorry about the essay!  I just wanted to share the idea that you can have it all - the children and the partner - although the order they come in may not be what was originally envisioned or sought.  

A-Mx


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## Maya7 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Roisin

Hope you enjoyed your xmas in Ireland ... am heading back to Dublin tomorrow after sleeping a lot of my time away over xmas.  

After my relationship ended 3 years ago, I was devastated and wanted the partner-family-wonderful life package everyone else had...I looked around me and realised that I had spent so much of my life off saving the world that I hadnt saved myself a bit of it!!  I then spent years building up a life for myself in Ireland after so long away and focussed on my dream of having a child (I've been broody since I was 15) ... Its not always easy to stay focussed but we are all allowed our off days (been having a few lately)... I have been at home over xmas half wanting to tell everyone but knowing its best to wait til I'm a bit further on...you see its not just us who want the partner and then child scenario...I know my dad follows that logic ... 

Christmas is a difficult time really - I see happy families and worry if I am storing up a sense of loss for my child at this time... but I truly believe that I will do all I can to make our lives as happy as they can be...I am encouraged by the stories of partners who come along and if it is the case that we make our own happiness in life then there are so many determined women on this site who will achieve that goal..

I find that dipping into the books is helpful  in reminding us of the scope of these major projects we are undertaking...I'm having withdrawal symptoms from my books and from the site...It helps me so much to know that there are others similar to myself struggling with the same worries and challenges...

I hope you find help progressing your own dream here.

All the best
Maya


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi ladies,

Thank you for all your recommendations and for sharing your stories.

Suity: it's amazing that so little research has been done into the feeling of the donor children, but then I guess that people have not wanted to make a big issue of it. I think I'll go for Lisa Safron and the Jane Mattes/Mikki Morrissette books.  Yes, the child is more important to me than the relationship too ... it's now just a matter of trying to get my brain and emotions to stay in one place.  

Lulumead - re being scared of never having sex again: a friend of mine said that perhaps guys may be less scared of getting into a relationship with a single mother because the pressure is now off them to be "the one" and the "baby maker" as the woman's already looked after that.  She also said it might sort out the riff raff from the gems. 

Indekimi - good luck with your new guy - I wouldn't push him away as he's keen when he knows your plans and you've known him a long time.  If he's a good one hopefully he'll understand you're head is busy with other stuff and he'll wait for you. 

Maya7 - wow, broody since 15, you were so young. Congratulations now! You must be so excited.  Finding this site has been a revalation - reading people's histories: the strength and determination of these women, especially the single women is an eye-opener.  I was just lucky that a friend sent me the link for the site.  I know you are right about making our own happiness 

Apparently there have only been 2 babies born in the UK using frozen eggs - that's a pity because I would freeze eggs after having my first baby, so if I meet a good man, we could try for our own.  

Well, I must get on with stuff.  In case I'm not back here today Happy New Year to us all  and may our dreams come true. 

x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

I've been searching but can't find the information so I'm sorry if I'm duplicating questions.  

Ovulating Predictor Kits:  On choicemoms.org I heard that with older women, by the time they positive they have already ovulated.  Is this correct? So what can we do in that case.  It would be too expensive every month to book say 3 scans on the days leading up to what might be ovulation.

Salt microscopes & ferning: I have read that this is a more accurate method then the pee sticks?  Could you recommend a brand of microscope.  I would use it in conjunction with the Clearblue digita pee stick I think. However, one lady on this site said the salt microscope didn't work at all.

Predicting when I ovulate by counting (am I right in thinking the following):
Luteul phase is 14 days in all women.  So, if cycle is regular, then can subtract 14 days to get an idea of ovulation day.  However, am I considered irregular as my previous cycles were 31 (latest), 27, 30, 32 and 29 days. The average of this is 29.8, round up to 30.  So 30 minus 14 = 16.  So day 16 would be my ovulation date?

Is it true that egg freezing is practically useless: only 2 babies have been born in the UK to this method?

Does anyone know how successful the Reprofit clinic is - how many of the ladies from this site have become pregnant with them?

I do hope I'm not asking too many questions.


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi Roisin,
I use the clearblue fertility monitor - not that cheap, especially when your cycle is long.  The luteal phase is 14 days - but you can not work out your ovulation using an average.  Each cycle is different - on my 31 day cycles I normally ovulate round day 17, however this month I'm on day 22 and haven't ovulated, hence I know this ones going to be a long one.  The fertility monitor does require you to test every day until past ovulation - it monitors your estrogen as well as LH levels and gives you your high fertility days as well as your peak ovulation day.  I can not comment on the microscope method though.

As for frozen eggs - there are a mumber of ladies on this site who have conceived with frozen embryos - and the majority from Reprofit.  Reprofits success rates are quite high - not sure of the exact figure but it might say on their website.
Hope that helps
mini x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Hi Roisin,

Don't think I can answer them all, but here's a go at answering some of your questions:

I didn't use an ovulation predictor kit so can't help on that...and never heard of salt microscopes at all I'm afraid! I used the pee sticks (can't remember which brand but the digital ones which give you a smily face when you are having LH surge) - worked on one cycle and not on 2 others (ie never picked up any surge on those 2 cycles, but then again perhaps I didn't ovulate those months?)

Yes, you're kind of right with the rough calculations re counting ovulation, but it's difficult to be accurate just by counting. On my 2 IUI with scans for eg, one showed me due to ovulate around day 14, the other closer to day 18....so if your cycles are not really regular then it can be a bit hit and miss....

From what I've read you can best predict ovulation through a combination of factors - the pee sticks, temperature, cervical mucus etc - there are books on this.....although for me none of it really worked - I ended up paying LWC for scans throughout my IUIs to be more sure of the timing....not that any of the IUIs worked but at least I felt I was doing the most I could to get the timing right...

Egg freezing - I assume you mean women freezing their eggs to use some months or years later for fertility tx? I wonder if the success rate of 2 babies is less to do with actual success rates and more that this is a relatively recent procedure so they don't have many cases to go with? I don't know much about it and I ruled it out on the assumption that I'm already too old to benefit from it. I'd imagine you would need to freeze your eggs in your twenties for it to be most successful?
As Mini mentions, success rates for FET (frozen embryo transfer) are a little lower than a fresh IVF cycle, but many many women have successfully conceived this way 

Reprofit - anecdotally they would seem to be pretty successful although I don't know exactly what their stats are. I've sort of given up paying too much attention to the stats...each of us is an individual at the end of the day....but overall feedback on Reprofit seems very positive, which can only be a good thing

Good luck - and don't worry about asking questions  
Suitcase
x

PS will email you the DCN thing tomorrow


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## bingbong (Dec 9, 2008)

hi Roisin,

I can't help much but can tell you that the microscopes have been used by a friend of mine to successfully tell when her dog was ovulating, not sure that really helps though!!!   And I have heard mixed things about human's using them. Why don't you try basal temp? That is meant to be good at working out your cycles, and it is cheap. I would do that but I am a really bad sleeper and so don't think that it fits for me really. There are internet sites that you can use to chart your temp and cervical fluid and AF and it helps you to work out a pattern, but unfortunately your temp goes up after ovulation, but as said it will help you to get to know your cycles. Your cevix also changes position so that can be used too. Also the ovulation predictor tests should be done in the late morning or afternoon to let the hormone's get into the urine, bit of a pain as it would mean taking them to work, and I am not sure that I can slip into the toilet with the clearblue fertility predictor machine without looking rather suspicious.  

And my knowledge on this is fairly outdated but it is my understanding that eggs do not do well being frozen unless they are inseminated (and so an embryo). So if a woman has cancer and has eggs taken before chemo they always fertilise them before freezing. So I think that it isn't really worth doing unfortunately, although as I said I might be out of date on that and maybe so if JJ1 did it. Hopefully she will be along to clear that one up soon!

Anyway, I am sure that between everyone here your questions can be answered! 

BB x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Frozen eggs are commonly used on the continent and they claim 97% successful defrosting rate- they have to be vitrificated.  I am having DE's and my last cycle was cancelled as my lining had problem and IVI Barcelona said that freezing the eggs by vitrificated was more preferable than making them into embryos and freezing them. Some clinics abroad eg: IVI Valencia use frozen eggs for donors routinely.

I tried the salivia ovulation kit but threw it away as I couldn't see anything, I used clearblue ovulation sticks (so you can carry them around in your handbag) to predict my LH surge, this means that you will ovulate in the next 36 hours.

Have you spent time tracking your cycle, doing temperature and cervical mucous monitoring !! it might be worth doing a monitored cycle at a clinic and having a scan etc to see when you ovulate
L x

Good Luck


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Mini, Suity, Rose, Bingbong and JJ1

Many thanks 

Here's is a link to the salt microscopes - http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/saliva-ovulation-testing.html
Though JJ1 had no result with it. I will go out and find a book tomorrow. Considering so many women are relying on knowing exactly when they are LH surging, some fertility expert should invent an implant that can go under the skin which would give accurate results 

I've started monitoring to get a picture of my cycle. Am using the smiley face digital pee-sticks - but it's not come up positive yesterday or today when I expected it day-count-wise and mucus-wise. Of course I'll keep trying. Am not doing temperature check because my sleep pattern changes due to shift-work and I guess this would affect the temperature method. Will prob try the clearblue monitor as it seems to give a longer picturepossibly the cycle monitor at a clinic in the future when I'm either artificially inseminating at home or using a clinic for treatment.

I'm thinking that if I have eggs extracted for IVF and there are spares that can be frozen, then I would prefer to freeze eggs that could be used with a future partner to have his biological child (rather than a 2nd child with frozen embryo using donor's sperm). However, the most stragegic course would be to freeze embryos made with donor sperm, & some eggs for my future parter to fertilize. So JJ1's news is really great and gives me hope.

JJ1 - I note you are using donor eggs, do you know any figures about the age at which the success with frozen eggs declines.

x

/links


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

PS I was not considering using Spain as it doesn't allow the use of known donors (or have I got that wrong)?  Whereas technically I could at Reprofit using European Sperm Bank.


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Roisin, Spain does not use known donors. I think CARE in Notts is one of the few places that vitrify eggs in the UK, you need this as opposed to standard freezing. You would have to explore embryos and egg freezing, don't forget that they don't all defrost so you would have to research this. Also is you had some embryos your children would not be full siblings and face the issues of one maybe knowing the father and the other not, and not having sibling sperm around if you want sperm from the same batch- there is a lot to think about.

There was one of the Olympic canoist on TV recently saying she had frozen ehr eggs as she needed to concentrate on the next 3-4 yrs training.  Ladies having cnacer treatment also have them frozen now.
Re: ovulation I found some monitored cycles I didn't get surge till cd 18-19


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Roisin,

If you partic wanted to go to Spain I'm sure you could import your ID release sperm there too? Although I believe Reprofit is cheaper than Spain anyway....

Suitcase
x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

JJ1 and Suity,

I think Hammersmith may vitrify eggs too - according to an article I scanned in the guardian.  It's crazy that clinics are continuing with the old-style freezing when the results with vitrification are so much better - especially as this is so important to so many people.  

Yes JJ1, there's so much to consider and it would prob be difficult for first child to know he/she's come from a donor, but 2nd child is from the man in the family.  I guess at least the man could have one biological child of his own so would be more likely to be a father to my first child. I've sent off for the Jane Mattes and Mikki Morrissette books. 

Suity, when you say ID release I guess you mean ID will be released when child reaches 18?  I think I've been using the wrong term - I said "known" donor when I should have said 'open' donor.  I def want the child to know father at 18.  So I was hoping to be able to import sperm from either US or ESB to Reprofit or another European clinic, and hope to get around the clinic's anonymous policy by importing from abroad.  Do you think that is feesible or will the sperm bank send the clinic information about whether the donor is anonymous or open?

x


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## annacameron (Dec 16, 2008)

AMH is key -be sure the one stop test thing covers that. it is a measure of a hormone thrown off by the follicles. the more you have the better. linked to AFC obviosuly. AFC on its own is less conclusive as there is no measure of quality from that.  

dont pay much attention to FSH - with women over 35, it is not a celar indicator. 

read ff religiously and you will qucikly know more than the consultants owing to the overview it provides! scary but true. 

depending on AMH results, if good, i'd be tempted to go for extra cycles medicated iui. 
if bad, go faster to full ivf. 

lastly when getting amh results bbe sure you know the SCALE -  so much confusion is caused byt hat, inclduing at consultant level!


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## Maya7 (Sep 9, 2008)

Roisin - you need to check out whether the sperm bank will receive information from you or whether from the clinic...Reprofit seem to consider the sperm as anonymous and will not report to the bank...you should find out if you can report yourself directly to the bank.

Regards
Maya


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Anna - thanks a million for heads up re AMH - I will check get onto it tomorrow.  I had thought it was all about the FSH.  Unfortunately I don't get as much time as I'd like to read FF & there's just so much info that my head's spinning.  So thanks for pointing out the AMH & AFC.  A girl I know has done IUI four times and it hasn't worked, but don't know what her AMH was. 

I had some tests done in Ireland and got result results today: Free - T4, TSH, LH, FSH and Oestradiol - but not AMH.  FSH was 5.6 IU/L  - but I didn't know that it's not a clear indicator. 

Hi Maya: when you say "report yourself directly to the bank" - do you mean that I contact the bank and ask them to export my chosen sperm to the clinic, rather than the clinic contacting the bank and asking them to export?  I will do some emailing tonight. 

Some news: Stefan at Reprofit says they don't vitrify eggs there, only embryos - and the embroys are always vitrified. 

x


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## annacameron (Dec 16, 2008)

sorry about my typing, it really is rubbish isn't it?

with an FSH of 5.6, you will be told it is normal or good. and that's true, especially at our age. however, it is not conclusive and some older women still have agood FSH but a poor AMH. (ie me!)

I was in denial and wasted a lot of time before moving to IVF adn I think that's a mistake. I think everyone over 35/36 needs to be  realistic and if over 37, really think about making conceiving top priority. You might be lucky however - friends of mine have conceived first time aged 40 adn 41! - so don't say I was completley wrong if you fall into their lucky category! fingers crossed you do but jsut to say...better to be safe than sorry and get on with it now. it could end up being cheaper playing safe than doing countless cycles later in any event later (like me :-( ).

best of luck!


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

FSH on its own cannot be relied upon, you need to consider LH as well.  I asked ARGC for AMH test and they said having had one cycle of IVF  this apparently gives more info than the AMH as it demonstrates how your body reacts to the drugs.  I agree with starting sooner rather than later I keep telling my friends who are younger than me, as I started 36/7 and still trying
L x


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## annacameron (Dec 16, 2008)

JJ, agreed but it is quite an expensive way to establish how one is likely to respond. 

also, the body can be weird. i had AFC of 7-10 ish consistently then last summer something changed and i had 17 plus for 3 months till autumn came. having always scoffed at it, i now wonder if there's something in mr T's thing about cycling over summer after all.....


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## Maya7 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Roisin

I was referring to after your positive outcome - !!  In terms of organising, you should contact the bank and have them deliver to the clinic (and advise the clinic it is coming) - i've known of samples going missing so chase up on it after selecting...

Maya


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Anna, JJ1 and Maya,

Thank you for taking the time to let me know -  I need the wake up call to be honest - and even as I say that I know that part of me in still in denial.  

I just dont feel ready but am trying to set myself a start date for IVF for end March/April (tho don't know how long it takes to even organise it). However, if my friend comes back next week and says he'll be a donor - then I'll may try a cycle doing home insemination. I hope that 3 or 4 months more of waiting won't untimately play against me. Really hope I can find a clinic in Europe that will do vitrification of eggs as well as let me have an open donor.  

I will take a risk and ask the bank to send open-donor sperm to the clinic myself, even if the clinic says it only uses anonymous.  I just hope the clinic doesn't stop me.  Do you think I'm silly here?

Knowing I can vitrify some eggs will help ease my mind over being able to have a biological baby with a future partner, even if couldn't carry it myself and had to go the surrogacy route.  The dithering is mainly over the donor now I think ....tho some of it's money - I have savings but they certainly won't stretch here in the UK

My LH is 6.9.  Is that good?  Will be off to the GP tomorrow to try to organise the AMH and AFC - ahead of my one-stop at Create.  No harm to have 2 sets of tests.  

What's Mr T's thing about cycling over summer?

x


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

Hi Roisin - the AMH test is probably one your GP can't arrange - it is expensive.  
If you're on about sending  open donors to Czech - we've all done that so no problems there.  Yes Czech only use anon donors - but nothing stopping you informing ESB that you've been successful. 
Good luck - please don't get het up on the AMH results - mine were 0.0 - but the clinic thinks this is wrong as that would mean I'm menopausal and I'm still ovulating.  It is a very new test.  A friend of mines dad is a consultant abroad and does not rate the AMH test.  
Take care and all the best mini x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Roisin you mentioned that you are going to try with your known donor/friend. I started off doing home insems, but I would strongly advise you both to have sexual health checks, HIV tests and of course consider the legal aspects Natalie the FF lawyer has posted on the threads about the legal side of things and donor contracts etc and for him to have a sperm analysis (about £90 at clinics) as this is when I discovered that he had a low sperm count (this is the case for approx 30% of men).  If you wanted a known donor/ID release would you not use this friend as your known donor at a clinic as well?  If you go to a clinic here he would have to deposit sperm, have tests and then 6 months later be retested, as they quarantine the sperm. Then your child would also (depending on your arrangements) be known to the child.

I have 40+ vials of my friends sperm frozen in 3 clinics. If you conceive in a clinic he is not responsible for the child or the legal father.
My donor and his partner mean so much to me and have been through everything together and it also means that my child () will also have an extended family.
Good Luck
L x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Good morning ladies,

Thank you again so much - your sharing your stories and advice is really helping push me along  

Mini - thanks re Czech reassurance.  I'm thinking it may be the same at Serum.  

Rose - I am working on my fitness preparations - tho need to be more strict about it. Am on pregnacare - 400mg folic acid.  Not drinking enough water.

JJ1 - really hope he says yes, 2 said no cos they're not ready to have a child in the world. Yes I'll have him tested, try artificial insemination with him, freeze some and then assisted insemination.  I have a feeling the answer will be no, tho must be positive.  

Re legals: I have a copy of an agreement (from Free-Sperm Donations Worldwide) which states the intention of both parties when using a friend as a donor - would need to be signed by a notary - and useful for court. I can email it to anyone who wants it - just pm me. 

Aweeze - thanks so much re Midland for vitrification - as they're the only UK clinic who've had live birth results with normal freezing, I'd be more interested in them for vitrification than other clinics in UK.  It would be ideal to find a clinic abroad that does egg vitrification & takes open donor - cos I'd get everything done in one place - have a feeling my money is going to have to stretch further than I first envisaged. 

I think I'm going to go for egg vitrification really soon - hopefully at the same time I can make some blastos.  Maybe I'm being optimistic but it seems the most efficient use of a cycle & all those drugs. 

News: Penny at Serum recommends insemination once or twice, and then IVF.  Later she said IUI first then IVF after 4 months.  They accept my importing donor sperm, but not the use of my friend as donor.  Also she said "vitrification of your eggs is not advised as the results on ongoing pregnancies are very poor."  So would have to have eggs done elsewhere. Will contact the Spanish clinics over the next few days re this - tho it seems that vitrification is so new that prob no clinic in Europe is going to be much more experienced than another with it. 

I have also been thinking that I'll have a successful pregnancy after one or two IVFs - but I can see from your experiences that I've got the rosy glasses on.  Yet positive thinking can change so much - physically!  My brother and my friend both had major injuries which doctors said couldn't be fixed, and they both fine now. With my friend the doctors had wanted to take his leg off after an accident -with Tai Kwan Do (?spell) & positive thinking he's walking normally now, with a leg full of pins.

Wishing you all the best  
x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Rosin I am at IVI Barcelona and they do it, IVI Valencia routinely do it for their DE's instead of fresh donors, also if you are looking to the USA Dr Scher at the SIRM in Las Vegas does CGH (not available in the UK) as they also screen and only freeze the eggs that are chromosonally normal- you can have a free telephone consultation with Dr Scher.

I found that men were offering sperm once you make your intentions about wanting a baby, I guess are you asking them to be a father (and what that would mean for them) or be a donor (would they let the child and the outside world know) or just see them when they are older, letter contact etc, some of the lesbian ladies have used known donors on from free sperm donors worldwide and have little contact. All things to be very clear about before you both start out.
L x


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## Maya7 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hi Roisin

I just wanted to say to you to balance up how important it is to use an open id donor with the financial benefit of going abroad for treatment... It may not be possible to do both.  Importing open ID sperm may not necessarily mean that your child will be able to contact the donor at age 18.  The sperm banks (Well, ESB anyway) ask for the clinic to confirm the live birth and if the clinic treats using anonymous sperm this may not be possible for them.  Have a think about it ... 

Take care
Maya


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Maya and JJ1,

I now understand re clinic report live birth to the sperm bank - have read the thread.  Maybe the clinic could report the birth, and stillbe innocent re the anonymity of the donor (unless the clinic has received information from the bank about the anonymity upon receipt of the sperm).    

Will check out the Barcelona and Valencia clinics & SIRM over next few days for prices. 

there is so much involved ....

x


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## roisin (Dec 12, 2008)

An update from Midland Fertility re egg vitrification: they will accept people up to the age of 40.  They've had 4 births from traditional slow-freezing, but none yet from vitrification.  They said no one has yet requested thawing of vitrified eggs at their clinic.  However, their data is extrapolated from Italian data: Italy is the most experienced country in Europe in vitrification apparently.


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