# 5th failed attempt, heartbroken and wondering when to admit defeat.



## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hello,

Today has been our fifth failed ivf attempt.....and I'm just numb.

We have been ttc for five years. We did two ivf cycles in the U.K. With my own eggs, but they were such bad quality we were advised to use donor eggs.

We grieved and after doing some research chose Greece to have donor egg ivf. Our donor gave us a fresh transfer, which failed, and we got three frozen embryos. The first frozen transfer attempt failed. I went and had a hysteroscopy in Greece with implantation cuts, and had Chicago testing done. We tried our next attempt and this morning did a test - negative. We had one attempt left.....but we've lost all hope. Nothing ever seems to get found as to what the problem is.

It is so heartbreaking.... my husband and I are starting to believe we will never have a child.

We are holding off the last attempt, as we feel we are just going through the motions Andrea it will be a bad result again.

We are just in despair.

Xx


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## EssieJean (Aug 11, 2011)

Hi Lyndsey,

I didn't want to read and run, your story sounds similar to mine in that we have been grieving not only our losses but the loss of the family we always thought we would have... financial matters aside I personally feel exhausted and fearful of another loss and concerns about my health to try again but the desire to have a baby doesn't go away and we've really tried to live as a childless couple, we just cry all the more, and wonder what we will do with the rest of our lives.  

It sounds to me you really need to give yourself time to grieve properly, don't close the door entirely on going  back for a last attempt and perhaps try counselling. You may have done already, it's just something I've entered into recently and it's really helped me to vent out all my anger, grief, guilt, sadness without being judged or fear of upsetting someone. IF is so isolating isn't it...

Age isn't on our side and after almost 12 months, although we are still not sure, we've provisionally booked some dates for one last go (famous last words ).. but my thinking is as treatment gets nearer we can gauge our reaction as to whether we want to press ahead..I have days where think yes we'll definitely go ahead the the next I feel terrified and exhausted at the prospect of going through the whole process again  . Maybe this is something you could do?  If once you feel stronger but you still feel you can't do it then you can cancel, but if you feel that actually yes I am ready then it's already in place and your not wasting any time.

I really do know how you're feeling..I've been in a very dark place to the point of breakdown... and I hate to think of anyone else going through the same    

Give yourself time with your husband, keep talking, get away, go for walks, do anything away from the rollercoaster. Treatment can take its toll on your body, it needs to recover, be kind to yourself, and try not to rush it.

Feel free to pm me anytime.... you're not on your own  

Take care
Essie xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Thanks Essie. 

It's just so hard.

We've had counseling and it did help somewhat. I just can't face not having a family ever. We've briefly spoke about adoption but I haven't accepted fully we won't have our own, even via a donor, ourselves.

Thank you for your reply, it means a lot to me xx


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## EssieJean (Aug 11, 2011)

You're welcome.. we've thought about adoption too but it's a personal thing and we feel not for us. Have you thought of surrogacy? I know at this stage you can't think of anything other than carrying your own baby, as do I, and you do have a potential last go. I had no choice but to do donor due to early menopause and that in itself was a massive thing to accept, not having my own biological child, but the ache to have our own family outweighed any fears I had of DE. 

Have you tried genetic testing, intralipids, ivig, testing your receptive window for implantation? I sense you've had a lot of tests already and it's mind boggling researching all the time just trying to find the answer, that one miracle thing you haven't tried.. 

Thinking of you  

Xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Lyndsey - I'm so sorry for your BFN. I too got mine confirmed on Monday. This was our 6th cycle - all BFNs - so I can totally relate. It can make you feel very alone and isolated so please know that there are others out there going through the same thing. I wish there weren't and that the pain would go away for all of us but it is comforting to know that we're not the only ones going through this. Am I right in thinking you're at Serum too? Have you spoken with P? Big hugs xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

We've hadvlots of testing, not sure we've had some of the ones you've mentioned though.... maybe something to look into.

I've not considered surrogacy, just doesn't feel right to me as it wouldn't be my egg. 

Hi ilovewesties, yes I am at serum. Emailed p yday and she's responded saying take some time and then we will have a phone call. 

We have another frozen to try but we can't even afford to do that at the moment as we've no more money for the meds or a flight and hotel out to Greece. When we do, if it's doesn't work it's game over. Having a family is just such a big thing for me. In some ways I wish it wasn't. 

I just feel so heartbroken, yet at the same time numb if that makes sense. 

Xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Yes, it makes total sense, I can relate. I can also relate to the finances - we're the same. All of our savings (meant for a deposit to buy a house so we're going to be renting longterm) have gone in to debt in order to find tests and treatment and are living off month to month earnings. None of which will matter at all WHEN this works and I have to believe that it will at some point. P said the same to me re: call. I hope that she has some words of wisdom for both of us. I'm glad that you have a FET to look forward to as I think knowing there's something waiting is good to look forward and think positively. Give yourself time to recover mentally, physically and financially and I wish you all the best for your next cycle xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Thank you, all the best to both you ladies as well xx


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## EssieJean (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm with you - I half wish I didn't want a baby - in fact, I got so desperate not long back that for a split second I wondered (and googled!) whether there was hypnotherapy to help you not want a baby!! My thinking was if they can stop you from wanting a cigarette then it must work for other things!   lol

All the best Lyndsey whatever you decide   xx

And ILoveWesties - good look to you too   xx


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

Hi

Read your post and like the other ladies can totally understand how your feeling.

My DH and I are now at Serum - after many BFN in the UK - although our first cycle was BFN we have come out with frozen embryos. Our step forward is having lap surgery to have my remaining tube removed and hysto to have implantation cuts etc. before going for FET.

I totally echo what the other ladies have said and take some time - my DH and I had two years off treatment - and although it sounds like utter madness it did us as a couple the world of good getting back to normality a little and "us" then coming back the treatment with a fresh head on things. Not saying you need as long as that - as that isn't for everyone - but maybe just take a couple of months - in that time maybe have a Skype chat with Penny and then work out your way forward - even if you are planning months down the line sometimes just knowing "this is where we are going" makes you feel positive - hopefully Penny will give you her view on things and where she thinks things may have gone wrong this time, and what she suggests before going again - if anything.

Good luck hun  

xx


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## Louisej29 (Nov 19, 2012)

Hi Lyndsey

Really felt for you reading your post as I also went through numerous Ivf cycles and hit some very dark times wondering if and when it was ever going to work. It totally takes over your life in every which way.  

For me, it was Ivig on our 7th attempt that was finally the missing piece of the puzzle. Have you had all the immune testing done ??  Although we did see dr gorgy ( didn't like him so didn't go back!) I know a lot of people do rate him for immunes. 

Good luck. Really hope you ( and the other ladies on here !) all get your take home babies. 

Xxx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your replies , it is a comfort to know you are not alone in all this.

I need to research EVERY possible infertility test there is available I think. I haven't had genetic testing, IVIG or testing for reception implantation windows.

My GP did the normal blood tests years back and everything was fine. We got referred for ivf and although I had little supply of eggs (we got two - one fertilised and was poor quality) they kept saying we were in the unexplained category.

Next step was to see if my tubes were blocked - my right one is - but I was told it was not hydrosalphinx so it didn't need removing. We had our second ivf and they got 7 eggs but again poor quality, two fertilised and they were transferred but again failed result. The consultant told us to donor egg would be the best option as my eggs were so bad.

As we were now paying, we researched and found Serum. They have been wonderful. They did the 'period' test where you send them some blood and everything was ok. We got a donor, got 9 eggs, and had two transferred last year - I was so sure it would work, and the impact it had on my when it didn't was just horrendous. It took me 7 months to get over it and almost cost me my marriage. 

We had counselling, for our marriage and also the ivf and had a second attempt with three frozen embies - again failed.

So then I had a hystoscopy with implantation cuts and had a Chicago blood test. Nothing untoward was seen on the hysto and the cuts were done. The blood testing came back okay apart from one thing which was only slightly higher than it should be (I cant remember the terminology for it) and P said we could combat that with increased medication and it wasn't a worry. So we tried  again with two frozen embies and yesterday we discovered it has again not worked. We have two frozen embies left and have scheduled a phone call with P next week.

The Chicago blood test I read had to go to Chicago as they were the only place that does it, but it was done in Greece - so I am wondering if not the full Chicago test was done, but only maybe some of it? All questions I need to ask Serum I guess.

One thing I do notice is that after transfer - usually on day 4 I get a sore throat for a day - then it disappears. We know now when I get this that is probably hasn't worked, it's like an indicator for us. Discussed with P and she said not to worry about it. Also discussed the blocked tube being removed but she said it didn't need to be.

I will look into the other tests that can be done, I need to give this last go everything when the time comes.

xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Hi Lyndsey if you're in the mood to tick all boxes, what you could do is ask Serum to send you copies of all the "Chicago tests" as you call them and then make an appointment to see Dr Gorgy in London to run these passed him and see what he suggests in terms of treatment protocol for immunes as a second opinion?

We did it the other way - had all the immunes testing done with Dr G and then went to Serum so I already knew what we needed and didn't need. Luckily P said everything that I was expecting to hear.

The only question mark that I still have is that Dr G said we had an odd "LAD" result which basically you would expect to see from a woman who had had multiple pregnancies (which I haven't!) and he initially thought it was a mistake so he re-tested us again free of charge but it came back almost the same. He reccomended LIT on our next go but Agate and others on here couldn't see the sense of it. Anyway, P said it was impossible re-tested is and said we had a normal result and don't need LIT so I'm a bit baffled and will be asking her about this on my follow-up call. It's literally the only question mark I have.

I don't know where you're based but the uNK biopsy by Professors Quenby and Brosens at the recurrent miscarriage/IVF failure centre in Coventry is very worth doing for lots of women and doesn't cost a huge amount either. It tells you whether you have raised or nornal Natural Killer cells in the uterine lining and their arguement is that the NK cell blood test doesn't mean anything (Prof Brosens said to me that it was "boll*cks!") and that its what's going on in the uterus that matters. Just an idea if you're looking in to testing.

I'm also considering the ERA / implantation window test before I cycle again as I want to feel like I've done absolutely everything I possibly can. Where are you thinking of having it done?

Have you got a follow-up call booked in with P? 

I hope you have some treats planned in for the weekend xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

We are based in lancashire. I'm worried Mr G would b expensive ? I feel bad for thinking about money but when you don't have it what can you do? We have spent thousands and thousands already and there is none left.

Phone call is booked for early next week with P. Will have hopefully looked into it all more and can ask more questions. I haven't looked into anything much yet....still reeling from yesterday to be honest. 

She did say about looking at the sperm, but every test that has been done previously has said it's excellent quality, so who knows.....

Xx


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

I was going to say that menapur can cause hydro to form in blocked tubes during ivf but your having fet.

Prof q is good for uterine Biopsay but there results have been that it builds up and drops. I going Dr G very expensive x


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Well Dr G is very expensive if you do lots of testing or treatment with him but if you were taking your results to a consultation for a second opinion only then that would cost you £220 and may turn up something you haven't thought about. Just an idea if you're looking to explore all angles.

I honestly know where you're coming from in terms of money - we have hit bottom and are living from month to month now while trying to pay off debt as a result of treatment and tests. It's so hard but I'm sure you'll find the money for whatever you feel you need to do.

Interesting that P said about the sperm. Have you done the DNA fragmentation test? My DH did that through Serum before our last cycle / first with them. A lady on another forum I'm on was telling me about a friend of hers who has gone through multiple failed cycles and went to see Mr Ramsey, a urologist who specialises in sperm quality and advising couples on protocol before IVF. They did all the advanced sperm tests including sperm Aneuploidy and they found that he had a significant issue. Mr R now has him on a specially devised protocol (a bit like P's sperm improvement protocol but different and tailored to the results). Very interesting and this is the other test (as well as the ERA) that I'm going to speak with P about. 

The earliest M could fit me in for a call with P was next Wednesday, so I'm sure I'll have developed a long list of questions by then! I'm sure you'll have the same when you speak with her.

Good luck trying to figure this all out. I'm truly sorry that all of us have to go through all this x


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Wishing - what do you mean about Prof Quenby's results showing that uNK levels build up and drops? Thanks x


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## Louisej29 (Nov 19, 2012)

Dr g is crazily expensive and personally I did not think he was worth the money. He was insistent I needed humeria which we did not really want.  We had the full immunes done at the lister who were far better and said humeria was not needed.  Have you considered having intralipids ? This is not expensive - maybe worth asking penny ? 

X


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

Well originally they done the clinical trial trying to prove that unk cells effect implantation and if you have high unk cells then this is what stops implantation and they perscribe steroids. 

However, because they ran so many tests, the most recent outcome (July ish) 

Is that your unk cells are say 1.5% one month then 5% then 20% then 40%, and when it gets to that point you have a period and it shreds them all completely, and starts again.

They don't know how long it takes to build up, the above our just examples,

But when I tested it was 40% July and 2.5% in October, so it does prove there theory from my perspective.

Whether having high unk cells effects implantation or not I guess would need a full study, but from what I understand unk cells in the womb would have more effect over unk cells in the blood, there are loads of disputes about this

Hope that makes sense, 

(It does act like a scratch and goes deeper)


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Wishing - thanks for that. Where/how did you find this out? When I had the test if can't back "normal" so they said I shouldn't take steroids. My blood test for NK cells was very slightly raised and because if this Serum prescribed 10mg steroids daily (very low in the scheme of things) + intralipids. I'm confused now about the biopsy and wondering whether I should call to re-test? x

Louise - I agree that Dr G is very expensive (we got all of our testing done with him!) but you can't argue with the results he gets. My suggestion to Lyndsey was to go and see him with the results of the tests she's already had done to get a second opinion as that in itself should only cost one consultation fee. I did my second fresh cycle at the Lister and they didn't even consider testing for immunes + I don't think they'll give a second opinion unless you're cycling there but could be wrong x


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

LyndseyM - one thing that may be worth you looking into again is your tubes - the consultant telling you that your tube is blocked but isn't hydro - the trouble is I was told that any amount of fluid, no matter how minutely small that could trickle back into the uterus would be toxic environment - may be worth when your talking with Penny for your follow up talking to her about your tubes - if you have any reports from your operation previously and photographs etc. let Penny have them if you haven't before. Just a thought. Something worth ticking off the list of possible issues with talking with Penny.

Good luck and look after yourself

xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

I was also on 10mg of steroids and had intralipids. 

It's like a minefield of information and I'm going to have to sit down on Saturday and work my way through everything then discuss with penny.

On our last attempt I did ask about my right tube that isn't blocked being removed or clipped and I was told I was worrying too much. 

Had a meltdown last night. Argued with hubby and all the emotion came out, knew it was going to happen and the numb feeling wasn't going to last!

Xx


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

It is a good thing getting it out though - think we all try to do the brave face bit - but cant last forever - at least by having a vent can start to express how your feeling to each other as your both suffering - and then move forward in whatever way is right for you both.

There is no rush - I know obviously we all hear our "clock" ticking etc. - but take your time - I did a list of questions on my phone so when we spoke with Sophia at Serum I went through the list and made a note of the answers - otherwise I would have forgotten.

Just try and keep positive as much as you can - I am sure that Serum will get us all there in the end - just tweaking at all the little bits to get the right fit as such.......

take care and good luck - let us know how you get on eventually when you have a chat with Penny - in the meantime look after you both

xx


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

It was just all the findings that they gathered and told me on my second review appointment, in October.

I had 20mg prescribed from et. 

I think you should maybe go back and it might act as a deep scratch too, think the machine is broken for a wee bit tho.

I took 20mg from earlier on past two cycles, and one was chemical and other bfn, in going from day before et x


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Wishing - the reason why they prescribed you 20mg was because your reading was high, no? My reading was 'normal' so they told me not to have any at all. What I'm saying is that P at Serum told me to take 10mg to be on the safe side despite that as my blood level was slightly raised. When did you have the test then? I had mine in January so has this change of thought process happened this year? x


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah - he said that due to my failed attempts to try with the 20mg, but my October results are for this cycle c


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hope everyone is ok...? 

I've had a rough few days, depression has hit. DH says after a couple of weeks off the drugs I start to become my normal self again so hoping it is just the drug withdrawal and I will bounce back.

Phone call with P is tomorrow and I've been researching some more. I was suppose to have an intralipid before I went to Athens for the transfer but we couldn't find anyone to do it without an original prescription posted from Serum (which took over a week and when it arrived it was too late as I had to fly out for ET). No one would accept a fax or email from Serum, I remember how stressed out I was over it all. I've read about NKa and how the first intralipid needs to be 7-10 days before ET so it can get to the Progenitor Nk cells before they propagate to functional Nka Cells. I'm wondering if this was a factor in the result even though I was on immune medication.

I also want to ask P about the chicago blood test we had done there, I am not sure if it was a 'full' chicago test, I believe there are different levels of things they test for. TNF blocking agents - i need to know if this was covered by the chicago test i had done, and if not if i am taking medication to suppress them incase i have them.

ERA and implantation window testing - usually I have ET around day 21 of a cycle, this time I had it around day 14 - something I didn't understand and need to ask about. Also I want to ask if they do ERA testing.

Blocked Tube - I keep  being told my right blocked tube doesn't contain fluid and doesn't need removing. After so many failures and so many years of heartache maybe getting it clipped by LAP surgery or even removed would do some good - even if only psychologically. I dont know if serum would do this or if it's something I would have to sort out in the Uk. I doubt the NHS would do it for me so we'd have to go private then it comes back to the finances .... which we don't have.  

Off to do some more researching before tomorrow... will keep you posted xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Morning,

Spoke to Penny just now, or rather DH did, I was too emotional and trying to hold back the tears. Luckily I'd written my questions down! 

IVIG she would not want to use on me unless I was pregnant. The missed intralipids before the FET was not a major factor. The Chicago test I had done, or the Athens test, was a full one which tested for everything and I do have a slight increase of nk cells which was compensated for in my medication programme. There was a suggestion I had endometriosis but I had a hysteroscopy on October and none could be found.  

She no longer thinks it is bad luck, there is something else wrong with me. I had wanted to ask about having my right Fallopian tube removed or clipped - something I mentioned before the last cycle and was told not to worry about it. So I need a LAP and they will also check again for endometriosis, however it's 4000 euros and then we need to pay for flights and hotels etc and we just haven't got the money. 

The implantation cut I had done should last until March, so we are hoping I can have this lap done in feb at the latest so we can do the final cycle in march. 

I don't know why but I feel so upset, I think it's the cost. I didn't think it would be so expensive. It's another barrier in our way and we just can't do anything about it. I imagine it's more expensive to do in the U.K., the LAP, and P said in athens they would treat anything they found at the time rather than it just being a diagnostic which tends to be the practice In the U.K. 

I'm pondering whether to get in bed and have a good cry, or try to go out and busy myself. 

Xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Hi Lyndsey Firstly, big hugs honey  and if you fancy going to bed and have a good cry then do it! Whatever makes you feel better right now. 

If I was in your shoes, I would call a few private hospitals here in the UK to get an idea of how much a laparoscopy (with treatment, if necessary) would cost if you had it done here. With the euro exchange rate as it is, you may find that you can have it done more locally at a very similar price (or even cheaper?) when you take in to account flights, hotels etc etc. Worth doing a bit of research anyway before you make any decisions.

Have you had a laparoscopy before? It's more invasive than a hysteroscopy (I've had both) and I would say it would be nicer to be able to go home afterwards to recouperate but if it does work out a lot cheaper to have it done in Greece and money is a factor then I understand that would be the sensible option.

Good luck and u really hope this is the answer for you.

Westies xx


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

ALso look at private medical care through your work or dh work

Sometimes a play on words, doesn't make it fertility related and the private time are happy to agree x


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi

Well, I busied myself this morning then chucked in the towel around 2pm and hid under duvet for couple hours. Feel so drained.

I will look into having it done in the U.K., my only worry is I know in Greece they will fix anything they find. I guess I have more trust and faith in them than in the U.K.

Good idea wishing thank you, but hubby is self employed and I left my old job to try to go self employed and failed! Currently job hunting.

Ilovewesties - is your phone call with p tomorrow? Good luck.

Xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

Yes honey, tomorrow afternoon. I have a long list of questions so hope P is ready for me! I know what you mean about fixing the issue but you just need to find a good surgeon you feel confident in. Perhaps search on FFs? There has to be other people who have paid privately who can give you reccomendations xx


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## IloveWesties (Aug 15, 2014)

How are you doing today Lyndsey? x

I had my call with P and I'm still trying to take in everything as there's quite a lot to digest. P wants me to do a hysteroscopy with implantation cuts. I've had one privately here in the UK and everything looked perfect but P wants to do it just to cover all bases before our next cycle. She said the results will then help her devise our protocol including whether or not I should take steroids (something I'm concerned about as the Prof Quenby biopsy showed I had normal uNK cells so shouldn't take steroids, yet I've taken them on all my cycles except the first / only NHS attempt). We have two frosties but as we've paid for a two cycle package, P is suggesting that we cycle again and try a fresh transfer first. She's obviously thinking that although we had a really good response to the Clomid cycle that she wants to try other stimulation meds as you can't do a fresh with Clomid. Interestingly, I've only ever had Menopur so I would be keen to try something else - Gonal F perhaps? We'll see.

I asked her if there was any other tests we could do in the meantime and asked specifically about the ERA test but she doesn't think it's something I should consider as she's pretty sure that the issue isn't down to me and instead is down to "micro problems" with DH's sperm that can't be detected in any test. I asked her about the sperm aneuploidy test and she said that they look at that within the DNA frag test DH has already had done, so doesn't advise me to spend the money on that. 

She then went on to tell me about a couple who had x16 transfers before they went to Serum - all textbook cycles with perfect blastocysts like ours - and all BFN. She said that they went on to try DE and still BFN and then tried DE with a surrogate and still a BFN so this was diagnostic for P as it highlighted the sperm as the issue. They finally had success on their next cycle when they tried OE and DS! So, despite the sperm looking OK, P said sometimes it's just a combination of the two people and they don't know why it happens. That man could have got another lady pregnant but just not his wife!  

I'm now left feeling a bit numb as I took the call alone as DH couldn't get away from work (self-employed and extremely busy at the moment) and I'm going to have to tell him later what P said as I feel like she was gearing us up to accept that we may have to try DS.

I know DH has always said that we would have to stop the moment DE or DS was the next step as he doesn't want to consider not having a fully biological child. There are a few things to try before we get to that stage though so I guess we'll have to look at our funds again for the hysteroscopy (1,650€ which we don't currently have!) and get geared up for another fresh cycle in the new year. Deep breaths...


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## Flipsy (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh Westies, my heart really does go out to you xxx

That's a lot to think about but I'm I right in thinking you won't have to pay for your next cycle? Just flights & hotel??

I know you still need to think money for hysteroscopy 😢

The whole donor one is a hard one & ours are double donor. DH has no fish & that was always on the cards but it took me months (not great at our age) to accept it. When we decided to go for DE as well, it was DH who took time to accept it.

C&D are nothing but ours & C looks like DH & D looks like me - well so people say & I know people see what they want.

Your mind must be muddled 😢


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## Teeinparis (Sep 15, 2013)

Westies - as you know we took quite awhile to get a good Blast as well due to DH's sperm.  I will say that I think antibiotics and also Ubiqutiol for him made all the difference.  Every cycle DH does with Antibiotics helps.  It has to be right before the cycle though.  I also took it on my cycles where I got pregnant and when I had my natural pregnancy.  

I have to say we have had long talks with Dr Thum re NK cells as well and I think the ones in the blood make all the difference.  I say that as DH's company is doing work with the immune system on Cancer treatment and it is the overall NK cells that can kill the cancer.  So the ones in the womb are shed each month it is hard to get a good reading and it is your overall immune system that can affect the pregnancy.  From my experience - given my last miscarriage and think it was my NK cells as during conception I fell to a horrible cold.


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hello all,

I can imagine how you are feeling taking the phone call alone ilovewesties...I could hardly speak to P yesterday for fears of bursting into tears! Hopefully your DH is home now and you can update him and discuss your options.

Was the hysteroscopy in the U.K. Just diagnostic? In Athens as you say they will do the implantation cut which P told me can improve success rates by 65%.

I must admit it took time for me to get my head around a DE. It's a grieving process, not having your own biological child, so I understand where you are both coming from. When I've spoke to my DH about adoption I see him go white as a sheet. He hasn't had to go through the grieving process I did when we got told my eggs were no good.

I think Sunday is the only day they won't do a hysto if I remember correctly. 

I don't know much about the drugs, I've never had menapur, I had gonal f on both the cycles I did in U.K. With my own eggs and don't recall any side effects.

Take some time to think what you've discussed with P and what feels right for you and your DH. if you do a fresh cycle you will still have your frosties, and hopefully some more you can freeze whilst you do the fresh cycle.

I am a little better today. Frantically trying to find ways to make some money - having a clear out and putting it all on eBay!!! 

Xx


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## Wishings15 (Mar 27, 2015)

Yeah it can feel pretty daunting for men too. I mean we have each other but it's not very frequent for them to come on and get support from sites so they just have us or a few family members that they've been brave enough to tell. 
I've always been enclinged to DE rather than one donor or another.

So many failures are so hard in our minds and body, it's sometimes hard to breathe and you wonder who to take the next steps with. 

P certainly sounds confident in her methods, it's just a shame that there's no test, I have read that hysto with penny has better outcome (you get a video) and I'm not sure if the 65% is based on people who have had failed cycles.

My clinic actually says to me the last ET. Oh your success rate is 76%,,,, I reponded does that count for people with the amount of failed cycles as myself, if they mention it this time, I may .,.,,,,,  

I don't mean to sound down or anything, x


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey Lyndsey

First of all   - hope your doing much better today......

It is a shock and think the amount of money involved is a lot - however to be honest the 4000euro in Athens will cover a lap and hyst if necessary - I am having both procedures to have my tube removed and also implantation cuts and generally have a good look inside and outside the uterine environment to rule out, and indeed deal with anything that is there if necessary in one operation - so although 4000euro is a lot of money I think it is totally worth it.

I posted on the hysteroscopy topic under Greece and a lady on there called Tarot had similar situation with many cycles and then went in had the lap and hysto and has just had her baby following her next cycle - its stories like that that keep us going.

I think in my opinion although at first when you come off the phone it can be a little overwhelming as it is "you" and "your body" - plus factoring in the money side of things too - although once you have a little time to digest it all I think the process in your brain makes you work out what is right for you both.

For us we sat down and worked out how long would take us to get the funds together, booked the flights and then that way we have got to knuckle down and save as we calculated - although it will be tight we know we can afford to get the money together - and have the flights and op booked ready.

As for looking into the UK I don't think you will come up with much cheaper to be honest - I have a feeling tubal removal over here in the UK privately is coming up around £4,500 and that was without a hysto with implanation cuts or anything else necessary.

Also another thing - over here in the UK need to be careful as to who you go to for your surgery as they are not all fertility minded - whereas over at Serum/Athens I have heard from a lot of the ladies on the other thread about how much they preserve your fertility etc. - so when they go in to remove your tube, adhesions etc. they take their time to do whatever they can to preserve your fertility - whereas over here in the UK I can vouch from my own experience they can be quite butcherish in their manner and go in and do what they have to do - without as much time and care and possibly experience. But that is my own experience. 

Worth looking around just to make sure - it may be there are ladies on here who could recommend someone over here in the UK that is very good and experienced etc. in fertility matters that could do it better than 4000 euro but in my opinion think you will find it difficult.

Good luck with it - but just keep positive and just keep moving forward no matter in what way at the moment - even if it takes a few months to get funds together so be it - no rush or race with it - whatever is right for you both at the right time.

xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi

I am okay thank you - how are you?

I go from crying, to being 'spaced out', to being normal, to be agitated and angry. I have been quiet all day with DH at his work, then this afternoon had a meltdown - got angry, stormed off home had a good cry on the bed. That was about an hour ago and I'm feeling okay now.....waiting for DH to come home, god knows what he is thinking of me. I am just all over the place.

I've looked at a couple of private places for the LAP but I must admit in my heart I want it done in Athens. I don't know if this is because I think they will do a better job so to speak, or if I just want them to do everything as they are the ones providing the ivf for us. 

I am still aiming to have it done end of Jan or beg of Feb - DH isn't so sure we will be able to afford it by then but I am trying.....

I wish I could have had the hysto and the LAP done together back in Oct, it would have saved us some considerable money, but as DH said the other night if P had give us the option of a hysto for 1500 euros or a LAP/hysto for 4000 euros then we probably would have gone for just the hysto as it was so much cheaper. 

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I am trying to cling to the positives; we have another cycle with 2 frosties - our last, and we have some hope that something different will be done - the LAP. So hopefully a clean slate for my body to work from.

Just wish I could settle the emotions down I am feeling! 

Hope everyone is doing okay xx


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey

Your emotions will settle - you will see - just takes time - and you have to give yourself that time too - even though we all think to ourselves "got to keep going as quickly as possible" - but sometimes its actually good to step off the "runaway train" so to speak and give yourself a little breather - gather yourselves together and re-group a bit.

In a way that is where I think a positive of having to get together the funds (and trust me I had to really think of one hard!!!) was that actually you have to have a little break because cant magic 4000 euro out of no where - so actually I think it makes you step back just for a little bit, concentrate on getting together the money and hopefully in amongst that both feel a bit better by time surgery comes round.

You have frozen and also hopefully like a lot of the other ladies on here who have helped me and my DH get to the mind set we are at at the moment - is that hopefully this might just be the missing piece of the puzzle - we will never know unless we try - so just try and be positive as you still have a lot to be positive about - not the end of the road - just taken a little de-tour

xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Yes you're right, the depression is lifting and I'm getting back to myself. It does feel like you are carrying around a weight on your shoulders with the whole fertility issue. But what can you do other than try.

The break may do me some good, but I must admit if we had the money and they said do you want the op tomorrow I'd snap their hand off! But....patience is a virtue. 

Hope you and everyone else is ok xx


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

yeah definitely I am with you there.......if we had 4000euro sitting in the bank back in September time when our cycle failed I would have had the operation then and there if I could have done.......but we didn't.......it is really hard taking a step back - I found at first when we decided to have a proper "break" from all treatment etc. a couple of years ago very hard - but actually was best thing we ever did as a couple as we had lost "us" through everything - the 2 year break let us get on top of our house and jobs that had been building up because we didn't have the funds to do them because it was all going on treatment etc., time together just getting us back.......not for everyone though.......but I think similar to us now - you are both in same boat where just need to get heads down and get funds together to get this stage out of the way to move forward with your FET knowing you have done everything then you possibly can to get this to work......I am looking forward to enjoying Christmas without worrying about not drinking and what I am eating etc. etc. - there is always an upside to everything  

good luck

xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

I must admit I am looking forward to a drink at xmas! Rather than making up excuses as to why I'm not drinking!!

Xx


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

Definitely......me too......see always a silver lining  ......keep yourself going - hopefully this time next year we will both have our BFPs and nicely into a pregnancy - here is hoping   

Have a lovely Christmas hun

xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

You too xx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hello

Just need to vent as feeling particularly down and tearful this morning.

We have managed to save a third of the £6000 we need for the op, so it is now going to be at least summer before we are able to have it, then have the final FET. I am just so disheartened, there is nothing we can do about the money situation - it is what it is - but I feel I am just on a treadmill that has now stopped moving. It's like I am in limbo. Then when I think about the op itself it scares me to death, even though I've had implantation cuts and a hysteroscopy done in Greece before so know the protocol.

My marriage is also suffering, DH has always struggled with showing emotion but after a particularly bad argument he really tried and I felt so much better. Sadly, he now has gone back to how he always was, quite cold and unloving. I've asked him what is wrong, and he says he didn't think I like him being emotional, but I do - and I told him this, but he is still being cold. 

I am getting to my wits end. Each morning I just want to cry and cry. I can feel there is going to be another argument if I mention all this to him and I just don't have the energy. I went to the doctors a few weeks ago and got put on prozac but the headaches and side effects were so bad I stopped them. I also have a talking therapy appointment my doctor arranged for me, it's not counselling but it's a meeting with someone who will hopefully show me how to deal with stress better. My stress levels are through the roof. I feel so raw inside it's like I just can't cope with anything. 

I keep thinking about adoption, but having another go at FET stops me doing anything. I am becoming a hermit, I dont want to socialise, I dont want to go out. I live in fear of seeing pregnant women or babies or someone asking me when am I going to start a family. 

I know I'm not the only one in this boat. It's just so horrid.


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## NAT1DRAGONFLY (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey!

sending you a really big hug  

it is so hard and so many ladies reading your post will be able to relate.

It is so hard on both of you - and unfortunately we all "grieve" and deal with things in our own ways.

My DH and I - I just don't know how we actually made it through our dark time 3 years ago - but with the help and support of family and friends we did and realise the whole process has made us stronger - just at the time it feels hopeless. The only thing we did was to take a complete break - although it felt very scary at the time and I DID NOT WANT TO - but with my husband and I both in a bad place it was our only choice really. I had counselling which helped MASSIVELY and would highly recommend it. We took 2 years out from anything IVF. Both got healthy and spent money on the house and things we wanted to do. Coming up for the end of the 2 years it was my DH who wanted to start the ball rolling with going out to Athens etc. etc. - think the time out we re-grouped and gave us both the time to work out what we wanted - and whether in that time out whether we felt something was missing - and for both of us we felt that it was and both wanted to give it a shot.

I think in a way the time out saving will be a good thing - but try to focus on other things - may in that time you could ask your GP to go and talk with someone - or even both of you - may help - try and concentrate on you both for a bit whilst your saving - as at the end of it all you both need to be strong and together - sometimes taking that big step back from everything "baby" actually helps - there is nothing you can do whilst you are saving - just be patient and wait basically - and think if your going to find that part really hard then I would highly recommend talking things through with the counsellor - it was fantastic for me and really has helped me even now couple years on from seeing her still use her techniques etc. etc.

xxx


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Thanks hun.

I've done a lot of thinking last night, and I've decided on 3 things:

1) to have ivf counselling. I've had counselling last year but she wasn't a specific ivf counselor
2) to look at adoption now 
3) when people ask when we are going to start a family I'm going to start telling them I can't have children rather than say not at the moment or some other excuse

I need to have the adoption talk with hubby tonight. It is a long process and if the last fet doesn't work in summer (if we have the funds by then) at least we will be on with the adoption process.

It's been 5 years in march since we started trying. I am fed up of being upset, stressed and miserable. I feel I need to do something to be proactive. Doing nothing is just killing me. 

So....talk tonight, and hopefully start researching adoption.

Good luck with your op hun, fingers and toes crossed for you hun xxxxx


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## Clairemariearan (Nov 5, 2015)

Hi Lyndsey, I hope you're feeling better now. Reading through this thread has helped in some way my own feelings, so thank you for sharing.

I've just got my 5th BFN after my last frozen cycle. I've only had one faint bfp ever and that was a day before my OTD after a fresh cycle and the day after a massive bleed with clots. Needless to say the faint bfp got fainter and disappeared altogether. 

I feel like I have this constant sinking feeling and no idea what to do now. A part of me wants to stop now. We've spent nearly £20k and have so much debt and my dream is to quit work and start a dog training/walking business. The thought of throwing good money after bad makes me feel sick, but I'm terrified if I give up I will always regret not trying harder. What if I can't ever make peace with not having children. The other factor is my husband. He really wants a baby and isn't ready to give up. I don't want to take his dream away. If he said to me he was ready to stop trying I think I might feel strong enough to agree.

Before our last FET failed we agreed we would try one OE cycle and then one DE cycle at serum. The thought of asking work for even mor time off and more flexibility makes me feel so anxious. They are fairly ok with it, but their patience has a limit and my job is fairly senior. If I could I would quit my job tomorrow and get one closer to home and with less stress but I can't imagine a new company supporting ivf so soon and also I need to earn the money to pay off our mounting debt. I feel like I'm in this endless rut digging deeper and deeper.

I realise I'm rambling now, but wanted to get it out.

We tried counselling once but it wasn't really for us. Anyone got a magic wand or a silver bullet??


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## Dawn86 (Jun 20, 2015)

Lindsey, honey, are you better now? How's your relationship with DH coping?

Claire, I could write quite a lot of your post myself. My IVF journey has been different, but I have the same sick feelings, the same worry about work, the same conviction that nothing else will work with IVF.

I don't have a silver bullet. Or magic wand. 

You can see my history from my signature. I won't bore you with details. The way I'm coping now is by moving on to adoption. I'm 3 months through the 6 month wait which is required in the UK to start the adoption process after failed IVF. I'm not consistently happy or hopeful, but I'm a lot less despairing than I was with IVF. 

Don't get me wrong, I would have given my right arm to have my own baby. Moving on from IVF is the hardest thing I've ever done. But I'm starting to make peace with it. I didn't want to be unhappy my whole life, doing one failed IVF after another. I knew I had to move on and in my case my family, DH family and DH were very supportive of moving on because they know how much I've suffered over the past 7 years of TTC/5 years of IVF.

Only you will know what you want to do next. I just wanted to say you're not alone x


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## LyndseyM (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi ladies,

Thanks for your replies.

I am so sorry this cycle hasn't worked for you, it's devastating, I know exactly how you are feeling.

I gave up a senior role at work to try self employment over a year ago, the business failed, which added to my 'I'm a failure attitutde'.

My mental health has taken a hit with it all I must admit, and I a mess and having CBT therapy on the NHS. To be honest I'm not sure it is helping. The lady is lovely but my issue isn't I can't have children, and the CBT seems more aimed at anxiety. The counselling wait list in my area in the nhs is over 12 months long.

My marriage isn't much better. We argue, I go from wanting a divorce to just feeling numb. I think DH just doesn't know what to do. I researched ivf counselling and found someone, she is a bit of a drive away but when I mentioned to DH he said we can't afford it. He is paying all the bills so what could I do? 

We looked into counselling but found we'd have to have pet assessments and I don't think our older dog would pass it. Another adoption agency said we'd have to sign legal documents saying we'd get rid of our dogs if a child was given to us and they developed an allergy to them. This is something I couldn't sign and the agency said they wouldn't approve us. So I felt that was a dead end for us. I cried for a whole 30 minutes after that phone call before I could calm myself enough to ring DH and tell them what they'd said.

So, each day comes and goes. We are no nearer getting the funds for the laparoscopy. I am getting more and more depressed daily. DH is just emotionless which makes me worse and causes arguments. 

I started applying for jobs, got a no from several interviews and then finally got offered a job but it was 6 days a week and very long hours, so taking into consideration the state of my mental health and the fact I am living day by day as I can't cope with any more I declined it. I often think if I'd taken it I could have saved quicker for the operation. But then my current state of health should probably come first.

Everyone around me is having babies, or going onto their second babies now. I'm just completely deserpate and so unhappy. 

So that's where I am at. I'm sorry it's not very positive. 

Sending love to you all,

L x


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## MargotW (Jan 26, 2016)

Sorry about your woes. If you had treatment in the UK you may be able to get counselling for free in your clinic. Worth a try? 
X


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## Teeinparis (Sep 15, 2013)

I know this is going to sound airy fairy but the real things going through so many cycles that help me were running, yoga and meditation.  Finding the releases for stress.


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