# That's me in the corner...



## Leeps (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi everyone

My DP ("barbar") has been using this site and I thought I'd come on board and have a bit of a chat. And just as a bit of reassurance there's nothing I'm saying below that my DP and me have not already discussed together...

After not being 100% sure whether I wanted to be a parent (I was about 90% when we started) I now know I want a child/children more than anything. Which is surprising as that final 10% of uncertainty has been gnawing away at me for a while now. When I was younger I always wanted children but never met anyone I loved enough to go on the journey with so I just kinda accepted that children weren't for me. Well I'm now with that special someone and all of a sudden I'm excited, scared - all the usual stuff but I feel weird as I did always think it'd be me actually having the kids. I am, after all, a woman. It's so odd to be embarking on this treatment and not being the birth mother.

I suppose I'm curious as to how the non-birth parent in an LGBT family feels....

I'm also sick with worry that the whole thing doesn't work and we won't be able to afford any more treatment. If us not becoming a family comes down to money I'll be distraught. That's something I hadn't even considered until we're now 2 treatments in and not pregnant. We have a wonderful relationship and I know we'll work through whatever happens, it's just I look ahead to a life without children and what I see upsets me. And I'd not reckoned on that.

Hope I'm making sense. I'll leave it there for now. The other posts on here are fascinating and really useful btw - what a wonderful resource, so thank you to you all.


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## Pinktink (Dec 17, 2008)

hello  

I'm new on here too and we are at the beginning of our TTC journey, so I don't have a lot of experience to offer you, except to say that as the non-birth parent (this time around anyway) I understand what you mean, I always envisaged when I had a baby, it would follow pregnancy and birth... but I have found a woman who completes me in ways I never expected and although it's her body I feel like we are totally doing it together.. 

I'm curious as to how I will feel at various stages along this journey, and reading people's experiences on here have been fascinating.

Good luck for your next tx.

Lynn x


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## leoaimee (Jun 3, 2008)

hay leeps!

lovely to meet you!

i might try and persuade gabs to try and share her experience with you but ill have to type cos she doesnt really 'do' this kind of thing!

congrats on getting started on the TTC journey ... its so emotional all the highs and lows of starting out and disapointments of BFPs but youll think it all disapears when you get your BFP.... i thought it was so stresfull ttc but as soon as we got out positive it all just seemed so easy! but i guess we were really lucky cos it has been relatively easy.

gabs allways wanted to have children but she didnt really ever really think she would be pregnant and give birth ... although i think she might have considered it if she hadnt found a partner who wanted to ... which she did.

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=165335.0

i dont know if you found this thread ... but it goes on to discuss the non tummy mummy role towards the end and there is an interesting link to gingerbeer message boards with another heated debate on the non tumy mummy.

ummm i would say so far things that we have had to discuss have been our mummy names, an issue for me but not for gabs, i think we are both gonna be mummy untill she can talk and decides to call us something different.

i think it has made a massive difference to gabs and her family that we live in the place she grew up, and our baby will really know her parents in away that if we lived in england they wouldnt.

i might try and think of some other things but gabs wants to get on the computer and she is getting grumpy.

so ill sign off! for now!

laters tater!

aimeexxxx


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

Hi Leeps 

Nice for you to pop on here! It can be so addictive lol!

I'm the birth mother in our family-to-be and we have been quite lucky as my DW loves babies and children but has never had a desire to be pregnant, so the decision and coming to terms with who does the carrying has been easy.

I've often wondered though how I might have felt if she was carrying and I wasn't. I know that I would probably be a bit jealous at times and very relieved at others. It's just 'super extra' important to share all your feelings both good and bad because you really don't want to feel a little pang of jealously and then feel guilty about it and keep it to yourself. It's totally normal and right to share it with your partner who I'm sure will understand (I know I would).

I have really wanted my DW to feel like she is mummy too 100% and so we've done a number of things.


I let her pick the donor as I wanted the donor to represent who she is.
I've changed my surname to hers and the baby will have her surname too (to be honest though double-barreling our surnames would have been a curse on our baby as it's soo long!).
We've decided not to tell anyone about the details of our donor, one of the reasons is that when people ask loads of questions about the donor it made her feel a bit left out/strange, we also didn't want people to fixate on one or two details about the interests of the donor that are similar to hers, but always assume the child's interest came from the donor and not from her. 
When the baby is born I will go back to work after 3 months and my DW will be fulltime mum and will have plenty of time to completely bond with the baby (if anything it's likely our baby will forget I was ever the birth mum!)

There are so many things you can do participate in the trying to conceive, pregnancy, birth, baby years and onwards that you really should never underestimate how valuable and critical your contributions are for your future family.

My DW is busy buying a new car for baby, buying baby bits and pieces, learning stuff she'll need to know to help with labour (ok last one is wishful thinking on my part lol - she'll be an amazing birthing partner but will leave the research up to me!). Just being there to hold my hand when I'm panicking, upset, scared, or in pain is so wonderful and I cherish it so much. Bubba is a little small still but I'm sure appreciates that someone is keeping the birth mummy calm!

Like aimmee - we've decided to let baby decide what to call us as it gets older. We won't refer to me as birth mummy, I might be MammaD and she might be MammaE but we're not sure if that'll work 

Anyway - good luck to you and I really hope you get good news for your first try!!

xxx
Dom


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## Leeps (Dec 12, 2008)

Thank you to everyone who's replied already, I knew I'd get some wise words and insightful practical suggestions.

The DP and me always tell each other everything, which can be a challenge at times but for us there really isn't any other way. It's how we do things between us and our TTC and parenting will be no different.

We've actually already had 2 unsuccessful IUIs and having a bit of a break before embarking on treatment number 3. I am really shocked by how devastated I was when the period appeared. It sounds obvious to me now but first time round I had no idea how I'd feel and just stumbled through it all in a bit on an unaware state !

When we were signing up for the treatment I hadn't even thought about the donor and we didn't have that much choice. We studied them all separately and as luck would have it we both picked the same person. We now refer to him by his code and anyone listening would think we were discussing a Star Trek character.

I just feel odd it not being me. I don't think I feel jealous. Yet. And that might/might not happen. Who knows? I just really feel weird being a woman and not being the one who'll do the carrying/bearing. It wasn't something I ever prepared for. Just like you have no idea who you'll fall in love with. I'm not sure if that's a sexuality issue or not. We're "married" and it's funny that people only have the traditional gendered spouse terms when talking about same-sex partnerships. Up here in the North we're not used to "partner" so much and on more than one occasion we've been taken for business partners. Maybe it's the same with families and parenting. Hopefully we'll move away from such gendered terms like "mother" and "father". But those are powerful terms that carry a lot of weight.

Anyway I'm getting off the point. I've met women who have a real biological drive to have a child. And I've never felt that way although I've witnessed how real and powerful that is. Or maybe I'd just never got far enough as to think through the logistics and realities.

My DP is amazing and thinks the child(ren) should have my surname. But I'm not so sure as they will be her kids too. Oh I don't know. I'm just feeling wobbly and worried that we'll not be lucky and will run out of cash before a baby comes along. That'd be crap but we have a straight couple who are good friends who are having to pay for it all too and going through a lot of the same stuff as we are.

On the up side - I'm not a total misery - I am so excited that we're trying. Just knowing it's what I want has helped move me along the road immensely. Not even sure if I should say this here but I find the idea of my DP being pregnant quite hot (let's hope she feels the same if it ever happens !!) and whatever happens I do know and feel that we are totally in this together. Until I met my DP I was a bit shy at expressing my emotions and things have changed so much on that front too. So much so that I can sit here and type this to all of you. I know you'll understand and that it's OK to feel a whole array of conflicting emotions. My mother tells me that when I was a child I couldn't understand why people sometimes cry when they are happy. That still confuses me a bit but I now understand emotions are amazing and slippery things....

So there you go. Installment no 2 from me. I'm winding down my horrendous lack of work for Christmas and looking forward to seeing my family on the Isle of Wight. Then who knows what 2009 will bring for us all. Much joy and wisdom, I hope...

Thank you for listening FF.


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey Leeps,

It's lovely to hear your thoughts, you sound like you have a truly wonderful relationship and you're so lucky to have that. Our first failed IUI was a bit of a shock too! We were both brought up to think that if you even looked at a boy he could impregnate you - so we kinda expected it to happen right away  

In terms of genders and people getting used to it. My colleague who knows I'm gay asked me yesterday "Was it planned or did it happen accidentally?" lol and another friend said "ooh, it will probably have your DW's eyes..." People are not as gendered as I thought actually and it's really nice and sweet that people have that reaction and assume DP is biologically related.

In terms bonking (lol) it has definitely had that effect on my DW!!  

Merry Xmas 
xxx


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## leoaimee (Jun 3, 2008)

hay dom and leeps!

really interesting what you both have to share about the non bio mummy experience.

i have to say that we have considered giving our children gaby's surname, it seems more important to me than gabs though.

she did say recently that she was a bit envious that i wld be able to spend so much time with our bambino.  gabs earns double what i do, so that was one big factor in why we decided to share things that way.  really though she wants to carry on working.  she has a lot of self esteem and value tied up in working and earning money ... so it works for us.  

but i really felt i needed to hear her say that about feeling envious.

also when we have been talking about god parens for our sproglett(s) gabs wants her nephews to be god parents ... i was a bit resistant because i felt she trying to make up for their non biological relationship.  and i tihnk she is, but then i realised i dont know how that feels.  and its not exactly a big deal, and now i think it will be lovely to have them as god parents.

i know gabs dad is was really pleased to hear we picked a donor who matched gabys physical charachterisitcs and so our baby might be olive skinned like her, and him.

dom its funny that your dw picked the donor, gabs left it up to me.  she left pretty much ALL of the TTC stuff up to me!

i dont think she is going to be a great birth partner either ... she is TERRIFIED!!     although i could be proved wrong!

you know some one asked if i got pregnant by accident!  and another person thought i must have cheated on gaby to get pregnant!!   

it amazes me that people ask about our donor, cos really its not that important to me.  

its weird i just know and feel totally confident that gaby and her family all feel like this is their baby.  and i know gabs loves the baby already.

its so hard to know what bond is because of known biology, what is to do with parenting.  for example i know a family here, they have three children.  the first daughter was concieved after the couple had been together a month or so, and so they didnt ever really stay together for the baby.  after about 6 years they got back together and had two more children who are 8 and ten years younger.  the dad is as biologically related to all of the children but unfortunately he is almost like a step parent to his first child, and they arent as close or affectionate with each other and they never have been.

i think being pregnant is sexy!  and its so nice cos you have an extra special bond!!!!

leeps - is part of the weirdness trying to get your head round being a woman and being a partner to a pregnant giving birth woman ... when all we have as role models for that is men and fathers?

one of the great things for me about being in a same sex couple is you can make things up much more.  how you share the work load of life!  

is a father a man who is a parent free to express his parenting in anyway he likes
and a mother a woman who is a parent free to express her parenting in anyway she likes ....

mostly people expect mothers and fathers to DO certain things.  like mothers to be caring and kind, and fathers to be authoratitative and disciplinarian.  mothers stay at home and fathers go to work.  

the thing is even in hetro relationships its rare that a couple lives thos 1950's chliches!

anyway i need to get cracking with the supper.

lovely to chat!!

axxxxxx


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## leoaimee (Jun 3, 2008)

iwas just thinking i wasnt being very clear earlier ....

what i meant to say was that i think there are differences that occur from having a different postion with in the TTC, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding which are just from the difference of that perspective.  which are similar to a hetro couple.  and need to be acknowledged and celebrated.  for example, i COULDNT have done this so far without gaby.  from a technical point of view i could, but her role giving me emotional support, and being part of our family base is ESSENTIAL.  and i see that as carrying on really for the rest of it.  also the other parent whether man or woman provides for the child an alternative person to attach to other than the birth mother.  which is a fundamental part of emotional development and growing up.  being the new person who comes into the babies world at the end of the day with fresh enthusiasm and a new energy and way of relating is so great and important.

alot of the time a man provides that for the family ... but sometimes the father might feel left out or envious of the bond between the mother and the baby.  and i guess its possible that the non birth mummy might too.

i have realised that its no good trying to brush over the differences this is going to high light between me and gaby.  which i did for ages.  cos we are going to have different roles and relationships with our children.

non of that is biology.  but its kind of physiology .... or relates to our bodies.  

it would be interesting to kind of compare fathers of donor concieved children with lesbian mummies .... it is different because clearly society will just accept the father as the father without wondering about how the baby was concieved ... where as the non birth mummy has to deal with society trying to work out HOW they are the mummy.

i guess its a complex thing.

but also i think if you try and be ok with everything in your own mind it helps other people.

i was really worried for ages, that gabs would refer to the baby as 'aimee's baby' and not my baby.  the thing was gaby didnt tell her dad we were ttc for AGES!!!  in fact it was just before our 3rd iui that gaby's mum told her dad.  and it was such a big weight off our shoulders and made a MASSIVE impact on how we felt.  because while she wastn telling him i always felt that part of her wldnt really accept our baby as hers, but she was afraid her family (or her dad) wouldnt either.  when her dad was so happy and supportive it really changed everything for us.


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## Pinktink (Dec 17, 2008)

I've found this thread really interesting to read, as the non-birth mummy. I don't know if my situation is different because I am planning to carry our next child(ren) so I don't feel as jealous as I think I would if I was not going to have a chance to go through it myself iyswim? For me I have always had a desire to carry children and give birth - probably re-enforced by being a midwife but I don't feel that giving birth or being pregnant makes you a parent... the parenting bit comes afterwards in my opinion... and it is how this period proceeds that I feel would have the most impact.

Obviously there are issues such as breastfeeding and maternity leave which may cause one or the other to feel the balance isn't right between the two mummies and I feel that as a couple it is important to create your own relationship with the baby... things like having skin-to-skin with the baby following birth I think is really important for both mums and baby - it will immediately give both parents a chance to connect with the baby and will help baby to settle temperature / heart rate etc but also to recognise the two of you as safe havens in the new and probably terrifying world... it soothes babies when they are fractious - I often recommend this to fathers aswell as the baby forms a link in their mind with the smell of the person who gives them warmth and calm...

As far as breastfeeding goes, me and PT have discussed this and decided that whilst she will be the main provider of nutrition and feeds, we have decided that I will (attempt) to induce lactation to provide supplementary feeds and obviously feed if I'm alone with the baby. It's a lot of work to induce and maintain any lactation for women who have not birthed before but I feel could be really important in overcoming any jealousy/bonding issues which do arise... and I'm willing to put in the work  

As for other people's perceptions... A good friend of mine who is also a midwife was caring for a lesbian couple in labour, they got onto discussing whether the baby would have lots of hair and my friend (bless her) looked at the non-birth mum and said "well judging by your hair I bet it has loads..." she didn't realise what she'd said for a few seconds and was wondering why everyone else was smiling at her!  

God that was such a midwifey post.....


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## jo36 (Aug 12, 2008)

I too have found this thread very interesting but as the birth mum to our DD I can only relay to you what my DP  went through/goes through by being non-birth mummy. 

I know for sure she was never jealous of me carrying bubba as it was something she didn't need to experience, but loved every second of watching my expanding waistline and crazy cravings! She chose the donor, who had all of the same physical characteristics as herself. She was happy to talk to anyone about the donor if they asked, probably more than myself as I felt it wasn't my place as such. More hers. The one thing that riled her the most was if my family members referred to the baby as being 'mine' not ours. Which, looking back, happened quite a lot. A lot of the time it went un-noticed on my part, and I would wonder why she was so upset. I sat down and spoke to my parents about it and asked them to make a conscious effort to remember how it was sounding when they talked like that. And they really did change. I just don't think they realised how it was coming across until it was pointed out to them.

She was dreading the birth as she thought she would be useless. She has a weak stomach and can't even watch medical dramas on TV!! She refused to look at books prior saying it would only focus on what could go wrong! She knew I read enough birthing books for both of us! On the day she was my rock. I truely could not have done it without her. She encouraged me, communicated with the midwife for me, and allowed me to squeeze her hands until they were blue! (WARNING to all non-birth mummies to be, remove your rings before labour starts! DP's were bruised for a week after due to her forgetting to take them off!) After Milly was born I held onto her for 15 mins before I cut the cord (that much she wouldn't budge on...) and not once did our baby girl open her eyes. But as soon as she was free of cord I passed her over to DP and only then did DD open her eyes and look straight into her Mamas eyes. It was a sight I will never forget. And it was the start of a wonderful bonding experience for both of them.

Regarding breastfeeding, DP didn't feel she was missing out in that area, but encouraged me to start expressing sooner than I would have thought of. She was keen to join in the feeding but had no desire to breastfeed. By 2 weeks she was bottle feeding her breast milk and Milly became a star at mixed feeding.

I know there have been really hard times for DP as she works such long hours and hates being out of the house missing out, but like Aimees Gaby she is the bread winner and enjoys going out to work. She just didn't realise it would be so very hard leaving us at home. Her emotions run very high where Milly is concerned. She is so proud of her DD and wants to spend every second with her. They have a truely amazing relationship together, different to the one I have with Milly. She will always come to me if she hurts herself or wakes in the night, but if she wants rough and tumble and exciting camping expeditions in the garden then she will always look for her Mama. I sometimes feel I miss out!

Leeps - All the very best in TTC with Barbar, its all the unknown at the moment but as soon as it happens everything will fall into place within your little family.

Aimee - Don't worry too much about Gaby at the birth. I learned to give my DP more credit and she came through like a superhero. I'm sure Gaby will be the same!

Sorry, that was far longer than I had predicted!  

Jo


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## leoaimee (Jun 3, 2008)

ahhh jo im     

so lovely to hear about your DP and DD!  

i cant tell you how blessed i feel to be pregnant and having a baby with my dp.  and the love she has for DD is already really tangiable.  (Sp?)

pink tink - i wasnt really sure non pregnant women cld lactate!  wow!  i dont think gabs would want to breast feed at all.  but funnily enough she keeps telling our DD in the tummy about how great mummy's boobs are!!

i had read about the importance of fathers having skin to skin contact too.  and told gabs we will be doing that.

i wonder that some times as women in same sex relationships, and maybe it happens with gay men too, that there is so much emphasis on being equal and the same and its harder for us to allow difference.  men and women have all their physiological differences to hang any psychological differneces on.  so its easy and a well worn social construct.

through years of being with gaby and some thereapy!  i have really learnt to embrace the fact that we are different.  i think difference is something all humans struggle with .... and it manifests in not accepting others have a different point of view, racism, war .... kind of all stems for that. 

we have talked about when i go back to work one day a week, that gabs will look after dd that day and swop her day off from a saturday.  and i think that will be lovely.

jo its funny cos sometimes i think im naturally more of the roughtie toughtie mummy .... and the play mummy and gabs is a real kind of organised get your pe kit ready mummy!  i think she will be more indulgent than me in some ways but maybe will find it easier to say no in others!  its so exciting to find out!!

lots of love axxxxx


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## Pinktink (Dec 17, 2008)

hello   

Hi Jo - Thanks for telling us your experience - my partner is called Amber aswell....  

I love hearing other people's experiences... and I'm so excited to see how things work out with my little family.... we are going to try and be as relaxed as possible and not try to guess how we will feel about certain things, just deal with them as they come (hopefully!)

I agree with you aimee that it's not about both being the exact same kind of parent, or having the same experience, anymore than fathers have the same experience than mothers... from the childs point of view I loved my parents equally but they have very different 'uses' both now and when I was a baby.... daddy has the money, mummy tells him when he can spend it... 

With regards to the lactation thing, it isn't something I have heard of within lesbian relationships but it's something that is often used for adoptive/surrogate mothers to help with bonding and attachment... It basically involves taking hormones to make your body think it's pregnant for a couple of months whilst expressing regularly (though there won't be much to express!) and then about a week before the baby is born you stop the hormones and switch drugs to encourage lactation and up the pumping... it works very well in some cases and not so well in others but it's something we really want to try... I agree with Jo that expressing and feeding by bottle is a good way to get non-birth mum involved with feeding if induced lactation isn't something they fancy  

Skin to skin is really important for both parents - try to do it in a dimly lit room with no noise and just talk very quietly to the baby or don't talk at all... and it's not just for straight after birth... if you find the baby is really fractious try a bit when you are at home.... don't know why it works but it definitely does...

we're really lucky that because I work 'long days/nights' I only have to work 3 a week and it is still full time... Am is going to work part time probably aswell so hopefully we will be able to share the general day to day care...

love lynn xx


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## Leeps (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi everyone

Oooooh what a fascinating dialogue we're having. Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences - it's really helping me.

This'll be my last post as we're off round the country to see our families for the festive season. My DP's parents don't even know we are TTC and I really wish she would tell them. I've told mine and they were a bit weirded out at first but now they're fine. When I first told them I wasn't 100% sure about what I was doing and that affected their response to the whole thing. Now my mother is really cool about it and excited at the prospect of being a grandmother again. I'm losing track of who's said what now in this thread but I agree that if we are happy and confident when we talk about stuff most people respond positively.

Aimee hit the nail on the head about us women only having male role models in the non-birth position of a family. It's hard to envisage myself as a parent when it's not in the traditional "mother" role. I also totally agree with all the stuff you've said about our differences. The relationship I have with my DP might be a same-sex one but that's where a lot of the similarities end. We do share some core values that form the bedrock of our relationship but really, we're all so unique and I value our differences. I'll not be giving birth and starting to get my head round that.

Even though I'm not there yet I figure being a family, being a parent is a "work in progress" and something I'm starting to value and appreciate is that we can't control everything and some things are just too complex to ever fully understand. We grow, we learn, we adapt, we develop. A few years ago I couldn't have coped with that concept but I'm doing much better with the whole notion of unpredictability and the undeniable fact that so many things are beyond our ken or control. I hope this awareness helps me be a better person, a better partner and a better parent.

Whatever happens I feel this journey is a valuable one and it's opening my mind in a whole lot of different ways. I also have to stay focussed and just concentrate on the here and now. We've got another IUI to go and if we're still not pregnant we'll have to consider our options. Initially we decided we'd only do the 3 IUIs and then we'd stop, but already we're moving away from that decision. The whole thing is an amazing lesson in seeing only as far down the path as I need to continue walking.

There's other stuff I'd like to talk about but I'll wait until we get home. Until then have a great holiday season.


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## leoaimee (Jun 3, 2008)

massive christmas hugs to you leeps!  and barbar!       

wow the lactation thing sounds cool. its such a great resource this website .... you find out about so much cool stuff.  there is a link on here to an article on lotus birth where you leave the placenta to naturally come off from the baby after a few days.  gina did it with her daughter ember.  its really interesting.

axxx


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## Pinktink (Dec 17, 2008)

Happy christmas Leeps/Barbar (you probably won't see this before christmas but hey!!) 

Induced lactation is still really a new concept, if it works I'm going to try and do some research on it from both a midwifery and mummy point of view.... there is so little info out there - I don't obviously think it suits everyone - even a lot of birth mothers decide against it for reasons that suit their family but I'm sure it's something some other birth mums might want to try... and should at least be made aware of the option...

I read the article on lotus births actually as it was linked on a midwifery site I am on... it's not something I would choose for myself but I found the article really interesting.... I'm very passionate about natural childbirth and it's nice to have more information for any parents who may be interested to choose this path, and now a parents account to read...the more info out there the better.

I agree with a lot of what Leeps said about learning to forge your own family as there are no traditional roles for us to take... me and am are both very girly, and have a lot in common so almost had to learn how to take on the 'male' roles between us iyswim... it's hard but over the years has definitely got easier... 

My parents are aware we are starting our journey but Am's were a bit slower to come round to the couple thing so they probably aren't ready yet!!


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