# totally devastated - yet again....



## sugary (Feb 17, 2006)

Hi 
Sorry about this post, its v negative but I just need to vent my feelings somewhere and FF is the only place I feel understood. I just had my 2nd failed ICSI this year, got AF properly this morning. I've also had 2 failed IUI's and an op to remove endo and an endo cyst this year so have definately been through the mill. I'm quite honeslty feeling like *hit, on the last failed cycle dh and just hugged and supported each other so much but this time I feel as though there's black cloud hanging over us, we love each other so much but I feel like we are both grieving for this child that we are both realising may never be.
I had an awful day today had to go to work and rang the clinic to tell them the result. Ended up going in as I needed to get medication as my endo has returned (this is just so upsetting as its stopping me from ovulating naturally) the consultant launched into a list of questions v inappropriately about what I was going to do next....he estimated my chances at 15-20% at best and just made me want to cry, I'd only just got my AF for goodness sake. He said you need to decide where you are going to 'draw  line in the sand over this' and I think its time 'to hang up your gloves - does he actually know or care what he's saying to me or just how deeply his words cut me?
Every step of this process has been bad news for me, endo I never knew was there, poor response to stims on short and long protocol boarderline FSH and now the endo has returned. I'm trying so hard to beat all this and to fight for my baby and its seems at every step there's something in the way.
Maybe the cons is right it is hurting me and my family so much to carry on with this and it is making me wonder if the time has come to stop.....i have really begun to lose faith in IVF being able to help me, sorry for all this whinning I know lots of you are suffering as well.
Take care
sugary
xxxx.


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Sugary, 

So sorry to hear your news you must be devastated. Don't make any decisions while you're still reeling from this news. The consultant should really have given you a few more days to come to terms with your loss and shouldn't be asking you to make a decision so soon.

Not sure what you should do at this stage but I know you need to come to terms with your recent disappointment before deciding what to do next. Life really is unfair at times and I really do feel for you.

Lots of hugs to you and your husband.   

I don't know how old you are or if you are doing acupuncture but perhaps that would be worth a shot to see if it can reduce your FSH level and sort your ovulation etc out.

I started acupuncture this year and have found it very good for reducing stress associated with IF so even if you try it to give you an emotional boost it might be worth a try, particularly after your experiences this year.

Take care,

Love  & Best Wishes,

CG x


----------



## babs68 (Oct 13, 2006)

Hi Sugary
so sorry about your news, it's awful that on top of everything else, you're having to battle your endo again.  It doesn't sound as if it's been helped by your consultant jumping to talk about the future - there's a time and a place to talk about that, and the day you find out it hasn't worked isn't really the right one.  You need some space to grieve for what you've lost, and only when you feel ready, to talk with your partner about what next.  Remember we're all here to help you as best we can.
Thinking of you,  
take care,
Babsx


----------



## Ellie.st (Mar 11, 2005)

Dear Sugary

 I am so sorry to hear about your BFN.  Like the other girls, I think you need time to grieve and adjust to this stage before you start thinking about what to do next.  Don't let anyone push you into making decisions - wait until you are ready and then do what you and your partner feel is right.  

By the way, I noticed that your consultant quoted you a 15-20% chance of success - this time last year I was told that my chances of success were less than 5% but have a look at my profile and you'll see that I carried on anyway.  15-20% would have sounded great to me then!  I think that with IVF you have to be realistic about the stats but that you can't just make decisions based on them alone- there are alot of other factors to consider too - and alot of it is to do with deciding at what point you feel that have given it your best shot and are ready to move on.  This is something only you and your partner can decide.

Take care of yourself and give yourself time to get over things - you have been through alot.  The decision-making can come later on, when you feel stronger emotionally and physically.

Hope this helps a bit. Take care of each other.

Best wishes

Ellie


----------



## MissTC (May 8, 2006)

*Oh Sugary, I am so sorry honey  Just the hugest hug ever for you 

Like the girls have said, give yourself time to grieve and time to come to terms with everything before you make an major decisions honey. And whatever happens, we will be here to support you every step of the way.

Take care lovely lady, and look after yourself

Love and hugs
Tracy
xxx*


----------



## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

Hi sugary 

Wanted to send you a massive hug. It's so hard sometimes isn't it. As the others have said, you must give yourself time to get over this negative result before making any decisions for future treatment etc. 

Only you and your dh can make those decisions when the time comes and I am sure you will make the right ones for you when you have had time to clear yor heads a bit. Can you take some time out and have a holiday maybe? Some time away just the 2 of you may help immensley. 

When we first started down the IVF route we said that we would give it 3 go's and then move on to other things but when the 3rd negative came we just couldn't give up and ended up at number 6 before our twins came along. I think you need to take each hurdle as it comes and deal with them that way. I needed to get everything straight in my head and try everything possible before moving on to something else. 

I am sure you will sort things out. Your love for each other makes you strong.

Lots of love and luck for the future 

Rachel xx


----------



## Trix100 (Jan 12, 2006)

Hi Sugary,

I could have written your post myself - our circumstances are practically identical except for the unhelpful consultant.  We have just had our 3rd failure and I too have lost faith.  When we went for our review the first thing my consultant said was you should have been pregnant by now.  Me and DH have taken it badly this time as the hope is fading.  

What I plan to do is have a great Christmas and New Year and try and forget about this - 3 IUI's, 3 IVF's and a lap in one year have taken it out of me physically as well as emotionally.  Then in the New Year we will re-assess.  I know I don't want to give up but I think my husband does.  The thought of never having a child petrifies me more than more IVF's. It's a tough road this infertility s**t, I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.

Look after yourself, cry when you want to cry (I still am) and try and enjoy the festivities as best you can.

Take Care
Trix


----------



## mazv (Jul 31, 2006)

Sugary,

Just wanted to send you the hugest hug  

To repeat what everyone else has said, take time to heal and don't be pressurised into making decisions about the future course of action if you're not up to that at the moment.

We're all here for you hunny.
Love
Maz x


----------



## sugary (Feb 17, 2006)

girls
thank you so much for your replies you are a wonderful lot and really help put things in perspective....I am just so cross with my consultant and have made an appointment at the ARGC for a second opinion. I still feel extremely upset and am having nightmares at the moment really scary ones where I just can't stop something happening no matter what fight I put up....it's all linked to this fight against not being able to conceive. I'm going to try and take it easy today. I wish you all tons of luck and Rachel your story is amazing have a fabulous Christmas with your gorgeous twins.....
thank you all so much for your support and take care
sugary
xxxx.


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Hi Sugary, 

Sorry to hear that you're suffering nightmares but glad to hear that you've decided to get a second opinion. As Ellie mentioned in an earlier posting the fact the consultant is giving you a 15-20% chance is something to hang onto.    I've only got a 10% chance and feel I have to take it or I could spend the next xyears wondering what might have been.  Also worth remembering that Ellie did strike it lucky despite her consultant giving her a 5% chance of success - so percentages aren't all they're cracked up to be 

So stick with it  - if he really thought you had no chance and should give up now the consultant you saw would probably have quoted lower odds than he did.

Take care and try not to dwell on it too much if you can help it. Wait and see what the ARGC say and perhaps try some alternative treatments (like acupuncture) in the meantime to see if that helps you with the endo and current feelings. You've been through a lot and it's not surprising you're finding things so distressing now but hopefully before long you'll have some better news. 

Best wishes and  

CG x


----------



## molly mo (Apr 26, 2004)

Please don't let consultants and such like put y9ou off..never listen to their facts/figures and personal opinions.
If i had done that i would not have my lovely daughter now.
I alwasy had iffy fsh, took ages to respond to drugs and had terrible results to fertility blood tests and then someone decided to not treat me like a number and treat me as an individual.
Do not despair and do not give up if you can.
Try acupuncture, see a herbalist, eat healthily, as much as you can.
Acupuncture, herbs really can have a great effect on your fsh levels etc.
Best of luck 
Molly Mo


----------



## nicky30 (Sep 23, 2003)

Hi Sugary

So sorry to hear of your BFN and return of endo and terribly insensitive patient care at the hands of your consultant.

I switched clinics after my 2nd BFN and luckily for me it was 3rd time lucky at the new clinic who did more tests and put me on a different protocol. I think you are wise to seek a 2nd opinion.

Be kind to yourself, take time to heal and all the best for whatever your next step might be.

Nicky xx


----------



## joby1 (Oct 20, 2006)

Hi Sugary

I feel so gutted for you and for what the consultant has said to you at such a bad time. I think that all the responses saying keep the faith and hope are fantastic and it just shows you how many miracles are out there waiting to happen and hopefully happen for you too!!

I feel pretty low myself and wonder if it will ever happen but have found since starting acupuncture 2 months ago that emotionally I have coped much better and feel on an even keel for the first time in ages.

Good luck with everything - hang on in there
XX


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi Sugary

I'm so sorry to hear your unhappy news  - I (& I know everyone else that has replied) totally totally understand how you are feeling right now. I've had 4 failed cycles over 2 years & my advice again is to take time out & heal - have a long weekend by the sea, pamper yourself, talk to your friends & family who are good listeners, treat yourself to long baths, relaxing movies, good wine & early nights. 

Also, after my 4th cycle I realised enough was enough & I really needed a long break before the next cycle. I started acupuncture & herbs & changed to a healthier diet (like some of the other girls) & I feel more balanced than I've ever felt.

It is a bummer though isn't it - we can't stop once we're on this ridiculous bandwagan can we!. I've also been told that I had a 15-20% chance, & I've now switched to ARGC who've told me I have a 50% chance. So combined with the acupuncture I've started to have faith again.

Please try & stay close & loving with your husband. We went through a terrible patch after the 3rd failure & yet after the 4th failure, we're now closer than ever.

My heart goes out to you though - I know exactly what you're feeling right now. But you're not alone.

Lots of love
Maxie xxx


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Maxie,

That's great news about the chances of success with the ARGC. I hope you don't mind me asking but I wondered how your odds had increased by such alot, is it down to the success rates of the ARGC or has acupuncture helped with egg quality/hormones etc?

Just wondered if you had any tips for the rest of us.

Thanks and good luck with your new clinic,

CG x


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi CG (& anyone else this might help)

No I don't mind you asking at all. The increase is mainly down to the stats. My previous 4 cycles were at the centre for reproductive medicine in Bristol which quotes 20% success rate for my age (3; ARGC on the other hand quote 50% for my age & in fact 50% right up to the age of 40. The reason the ARGC consultant gave me is that in most clinics in the country everybody pretty much has the same treatment, whereas at ARGC it's designed for the individual. I'll give you an example - even though I kept failing IVF at Bristol they still always put me on 300 of Gonal F for stimulation, whereas the ARGC consultant immediately looked at the notes from my failed cycles & said that I would go on 600 for stims & I would be monitored 3 times YES 3 times a day for 2 wks to check that was exactly right for me. In addition at ARGC they monitor for other things like immune testing, killer cells etc. They also do EC & ET at precisely the time that is right for the patient - (e.g. Sunday morning if necessary), whereas in Bristol, there were only set days they would do it for all girls irrespective of the state of the follicles & there were no blood tests at all for readiness. I think the stats speak for themselves & show that this individualised treatment clearly is more successful.

In addition, because I was at rock bottom after my 4th failure & very depressed, a friend recommended acupuncture & herbs (because it got her pregnant along with IVF at UCH), despite being told she'd never had a child even with IVF. I had nothing to lose so tried it - I've had 2 fsh tests over the last 6 months - 5.7 & 5.1. And yet before acupuncture / herbs they were 8.1 & 7.9. The consultant at ARGC said this was a healthy level & to my disbelief (for a western IVF consultant) he admitted to myself & my husband that acupuncture clearly worked to significantly increase changes although he didn't understand why & he really encouraged me to keep up with it & my healthy diet. My chinese doctor (in Bristol) says that acupuncture / herbs increases blood flow to the uterus, balances hormones, reduces stress & improves egg quality. His name is Dr Wan & he is qualified in Eastern & Western medicene. He practised in China for 30 yrs before moving to Bristol in the 90s.

Also, there is an acupuncture clinic round the corner in Harley St called the London Acupuncture Clinic ran by Daniel Elliot & he treats dozens & dozens of ARGC girls & he says that his treatment combined with ARGC gets a 70% success rate per cycle & he has consistently treated girls a lot older than me & had great success. The consultant at ARGC also said that they had great success with older women.

Of course there are no guarantees but after feeling very depressed & low after so much failure I feel there may be hope for me & I dearly hope that the information above gives some hope to everyone that reads this as well as me, as other postings on this site have given me so much help!

Love Maxie xxx


----------



## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

Maxi - That all sounds really positive, I hope it works for you.

I've not had ICSI yet (we're having our first go in February) but I've printed off your reply and if we're unlucky this time I'll seriously consider ARGC next time.  I hope you don't mind me asking but how much is ICSI at ARGC?  

Jem x


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi Jem

ARGC themselves (& other girls on this site who have been to ARGC) both say that it's difficult to quote exact prices as treatment varies enourmously for each individual - e.g. s/o could need 3 x blood tests in one day which is an extra £300 or they may advise special immune testing, which immediately adds another £1,500.

From trawling through FF pages, the guidance from other girls seems to be budget for up to £12,00 (not including hotel costs if you don't live in London) but don't expect a lot of change from £10,00. As I'm from Bristol, I won't have the money until next June / July. At my Bristol clinic my total bill per cycle was about £4k. Personally at aged 38, I'd rather pay £10-12k for a 50% chance, than £4k for a 15-20% chance, because I now feel time is running out for me (I started IVF treatment when I was 36).

Once I start my cycle, I'm going to post my actual costs to try & help / inform others & in the meantime I'm trawling through postings to find out how much the average person actually pays at ARGC.

So if there are any current ARGC girls out there - please let us know, it would be a massive help.

Love Maxie x


----------



## jem100 (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the reply Maxie, it must be really scary not knowing what the bill is going to be at the end but I think your right, if you can afford it it does seem more sensible to try somewhere that will give you a 50% chance.  

I think I have an awful lot of saving up to do. 

Jem x


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Yep me too.

To ensure I don't run out of money half way through, it will be next summer before I can afford it. But I know staying really busy always helps the time go faster.

Maxie


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Maxie,

Thank you so much for your really helpful rely. I was at CRM for a number of years myself and know what you mean about set procedures! I'm now having my first IVF cycle at another clinic as after years of disappointment I felt a fresh start at a new clinic would help.

I'm really glad that the herbs and acupuncture have helped. I haven't tried chinese herbs yet but may consider them for future cycles if need be. Like you I've found acupuncture really helpful though, I'd hit rock bottom myself about a year ago and have found the acupuncture really helps you feel more positive about things and grounded. I've certainly found it helpful during this cycle - wish I'd tried it years ago. Jst couldn't stand the thought of the needles 

I think you're right in opting for the ARGC, cos although expensive a 50% chance is remarkable and could save a lot of heartache and wasted time. I'm sure the time will fly between now and when you start treatment. Keep us informed as to how you get on. In the meantime have a great Christmas and fingers crossed 2007 is the year for you.  

Hi Sugary - sorry to have hijacked this thread. I hope you're feeling a little better now and really hope you get a nice consultant at the ARGC who can give you more positive news.

Take care, CG x


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks CG

I'll definately keep you all informed as to how I get on & I know the time will go fast. When are you planning to start your next treatment or don't you know yet.

Hi Sugary - don't forget the national average (anywhere other than ARGC) is 15-20% so don't in anyway feel that your stats are any worse - they're really not. 

Maxie x


----------



## SER (Nov 30, 2006)

Hi,

It sounds as though you have really got to that stage where you can't ever imagine that your body is capable of carrying a baby, I think almost everyone who goes through the nightmare of fetility treatment feels this at some stage (usually just after another failure).  In my opinion if funds allow and you are not showing menopausal signs then it is worth continuing if only to be able to say you gave it your best shot. I have had one natural ectopic pregnancy, 5 x iui BFN, 1 x ivf which was ectopic and have just done another IVF BFP (9 month of praying ahead !).

The only thing I would add is that this last time I took it very easy for the whole 2ww and also had a lot of acupunture.  I also had a blastocyst transfer (just one transferred, although I had 4 blastos) and I am sure that this is the way to go if at all possible.  I think in some ways it is worth persisting for a blasto transfer even if you don't have many embryos as it makes sense that if the enbryos don't go the blasto stage then they wouldn't be successful in the womb anyway .... 

I think the best way to look ahead is to look to how you can improve on the treatment side to maximise your chances of success - maybe a change of clincs is worth a shot ?

Best of luck !


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi SER

That's wonderful news about your BFP 3 days ago - you must be overjoyed & yet apprehensive at the same time. Please keep us all posted on your progress. 

It's very interesting aswell that you had acupuncture this time!

Which IVF clinic did you use may I ask ?

Maxie x


----------



## Cotswold Girl (Nov 16, 2006)

Hi Ser,

Just wanted to add my congratulations and wish you well with your pregnancy.

Maxie,

I'm going in for ET tomorrow. So relieved to have got this far, especially as they only managed to retrieve 4 eggs on Monday. I definately think there's a lot to be said for acupuncture as I'm sure I'd have been a bundle of nerves (ok more so) on Monday and this morning waiting for that all important call. Just hoping now that they all survive the night. Was really lucky to have 100% fertilisation so hoping at least some of them develop ok between now and ET. 

CG x


----------



## Happy Mummy (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi Girls, 
Ser , wonderful news about your BFP. Trying for blasts end of jan too ( if possible). Also doing accupuncture specifically for IVF with Daniel elliott ( he is supposed to be one of the best, and works a lot with the ARGC clinic ( I am at HH).Will see if makes difference. 
CG,good luck for ET tomorrow. wonderful to have 100% fert. I am sure everything will be fine tomorrow. Personnally after ec, and knowing I had some eggs fertilised , I felt a bit more relax to have at least made it to ET. ET was really fine ( compared to ec!) . Hey off you go to the 2ww thread tomorrow!
Future Mummy


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

CG

That's fantastic that you got 100% fertilisation & best of luck with ET today (you'll have probably have had it by now as I type). Remember it only takes 1 fertilised egg (I was reading another thread a few days ago how a lady only had 4 eggs, only 2 fertilised, both put back & now a week pregnant), so keep happy & positive ( as my consultants reckon that all the happy hormones flooding through your system actually make a real difference to your success rates!).

Let us know how you get on.

Future Mummy
How weird, I'm also seeing Daniel Elliot aswell, but in preparation for ARGC next year. I started seeing Daniel, as his acupuncture & herbs (along with IVF at UCH) got one of my friends pregnant with a high FSH, who was told by Western doctors she had a 1% chance. As soon as she started seeing him, he told her they were talking nonsense & he was right. I only see him once a month & then see my local acupuncture doctor twice a month, but I use Daniel's herbs. 

Good luck with your treatment in January - how exciting for you to go straight after Christmas, not long to wait now.

Maxie x


----------



## Happy Mummy (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi Maxie ,
Thanks for your good wishes. I see Daniel elliott twice a month , he does not want me to start chinese herb yet and as I am having treatment end of Jan, I probably won't have any . I started 2 months ago and had 2 cycles since with him ( 3 cycles since IVF)and the last was a Shorter cycle, no bleeding in between as I used too and maybe a tiny bit less painful as I still need a strong painkiller but not as many times as I used to. I just had a 22 day cycle while I usually have a 24/25 day cycle. I know that at begining accu can make cycle go a bit weird so will see. 
Do you see a difference with your cycle? Have a nice Christmas all,
Future Mummy


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi Future Mummy

How wierd is that - I've seen Daniel once & also just had a 22 day cycle when my cycle is also normally 24/25 (with the occasional 23). I was quite concerned about it, but Daniel said it was nothing to worry about.

However, I've also been seeing my acupuncturist in Bristol for about 7 months & 3 of the cycles in that time have been 23 days, whereas I only normally get about 1 23 day cycle a year.

I'm a little confused as I was told by both acupuncturists that they would try & get my cycles to 27/28 days so I had more chance of conceiving naturally (because of longer luteal phase for implantation), but in fact my averages have gone down in terms of days not up - so who knows maybe they have to go down before they go up. As I don't understand it I just have to put faith in my 2 acupuncturists.

On thing I would say is that for the past 10-15 I've had very bad PMT & AFs - almost instantly since starting acupuncture they have just about disappeared & I don't need any pain killers. Also, I had a very bad yellow coating on my tongue & bad breath (nice eh!!!) & my acupuncturists said they'd get rid of that & they have.

Maxie x


----------



## Happy Mummy (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi Maxie,
I agree with you that the aim is to get the cycle going to a 27 28 or 29 day cyce and as you , I feel I have to trust what the accu is doing. It is weird and I would be very interested to follow your progress in that area .
Future Mummy


----------



## Maxie (Nov 13, 2006)

Hi Future Mummy

No probs I'll keep you posted on how I get on with Daniel & let me know how you get on too. He says he gets a 70% success rate per cycle with ARGC girls - so I just have to rely on him that he knows what he's doing.

Catch up soon no doubt.

There's a very interesting thread going on for ARGC at the moment "argc part 10"!

Maxie x


----------

