# LGB Legal Issues



## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

My firm produces an information leaflet called Same Sex Couples and the Law, which contains info on LGB conception among other things, which some of you might find useful as general legal information.  You can view it online on our website at 

www.lesteraldridge.com/services/private/tax/samesex.asp

(and don't worry about the site asking for your details - it's our web people monitoring traffic and you can put a fake name if you want) or alternatively email or PM me and I'll pop a printed copy in the post to you.

Feel free to post any queries about legal stuff here - LGB TTCers have the most complicated legal issues of anyone!

Natalie
[email protected]

/links


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## lucky2010 (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanks Natalie,

Have just printed it off and am having a read now.

Where do we get the form to file for parental responsibility?

Thanks

Rach


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## rosypie (Feb 1, 2007)

Hi Nat

Ros said she noticed something about PR and same sex couples and changes to the birth certs somewhere. Have you got any info on that?

(this posted by Eve by the way)


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi Rach

Here's a link to the form you need (it's called 'step-parent parental responsibility agreement'). There are instructions on the second page which set out what you need to do.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/cpra2_1205.pdf

Hi Ros and Eve - I think you're asking about the proposed changes to the HFE Act. If the new law goes through, civil partners who conceive by donor insemination and non-civil partners who conceive at a clinic and sign the appropriate forms will be able to name both mums on the birth certificate. It's still a way off from becoming law yet (best guess 2 years - hasn't even been introduced to parliament yet) and will only apply to children conceived after it is in force. But for future siblings etc, it will mean you don't need to go through the wills/ parental responsibility/ adoption process to acquire parental rights for the non birth mum - she can simply be named on the birth certificate.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## lucky2010 (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanks so much Nat x


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## magsandemma (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Natalie

I just wanted to ask about the parental rights in cases like ours where we have not yet had a civil partnership, as when I was looking at the parental responsibilty form I think it said you had to take the CP certificate to court with this form, or did I read it wrong?

Thanks 
Maggie


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Yes you have to be civil partners to sign a parental responsibility form.  If you want to acquire parental responsibility as non-civil partners, the only way of doing it is to apply to court for a joint residence order.  It's a reasonably straightforward application but does involve a court hearing.

If you are planning to adopt anyway, you might just want to get your wills sorted as a stop-gap (to make sure non-birth mum can continue looking after your baby if birth mum dies unexpectedly) and then just to apply to adopt once your baby is six months old.  You don't have to be civil partners to adopt.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## magsandemma (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Nat

Sorry another question, hope this makes sense, I was wondering about the babys surname, we want it to be double barrelled so as she has both of our names and this is what we planned to do when we have our cp anyway, thing is I have been married and want o go back to my maiden name before this happens, what I was wondering is if I go back to my maiden name can we give the baby d-b name when she is born or would I have to change my name to d-b before baby comes along.

Sorry if doesnt make much sense, brain is mush, I know what I mean in my head,    .

Thanks
Maggie
xx


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

You can call the baby whatever you want - your surname, double-barrelled, partner's surname or even Mickey Mouse if you want!  You don't need to have registered as civil partners or changed your name before the birth registration.  It's fine to give your baby a different name to yours.

Regarding your change of name, you can use a civil partnership certificate as evidence of a change of name (e.g. to show to banks and passport authorities etc) or a divorce decree absolute if you are going back to your maiden name or failing that you can draw up a simple change of name deed.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## magsandemma (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi nat

Thanks for your reply thought that we could call baby whatever name but just wantedd to check.

Thank you
MAggie


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## Mable (Apr 9, 2005)

Adoption Process -

Just to clarify, this is non bio mum applying for a step parent adoption. We've done it without needing a solicitor.

1.The earliest you can kick things off is when the baby is 3 months old. You need to give notice in writing to social services adoption team manager that you intend to adopt. They then did CRB checks on us both and wanted to see copies of our civil partnership certificate, the child's birth certificate.

2. You then wait three months before making your court application. To make the court application you have to have lived with your your child for six months, so the earliest you can do things is to get in touch with social services once your baby arrival is 3 months old and then put in your court application 3 months later.

To make the court application, fill in the Court Form: A58 Application for an adoption order section 46 Adoption and Children Act 2002
Form: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/a58_1205.pdf.
Notes: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/a58notes_1205.pdf

Send in a cheque for the required amount - I think it was around £150, it depends on the court. This is the only expense.

3. The court then appointed a social worker from the local adoption team. She was completing a step parent adoption profile on me and us as a family. She visited us 3 times, once with the birth mother alone, once with me alone and once with us altogether, where we read the report. She also spoke to both our parents, as grandparents, out of courtesy. It was all very non invasive, amicable and made us feel very proud about what we are doing.

4. The social worker submitted her report in March 07and here we are in October with our court date. So if you want it sorted quickly, best get going as it has taken the best part of a year, but for us, even in a homophobic council, it has been a very pleasant process, ticking along in the background of our lives.

Here are some internet links for discussions on adoption, showing people's experiences of it in different boroughs and outlining some of the legal benefits to adoption, which isn't really my area of expertise.

Gingerbeer link:
http://boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/index.php?topic=71671.0

MSN link:

1. http://groups.msn.com/LesbianInseminationSupport/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2884&LastModified=4675598650471535645

2. http://groups.msn.com/LesbianInseminationSupport/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=3882&LastModified=4675636002282910623

3. http://groups.msn.com/LesbianInseminationSupport/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=3205&LastModified=4675601728961902958

/links


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## nickidee (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks for this Mable - it's excellent !

*Natalie* - I just wanted to clarify something with you as I note from the msn link that you posted, 
'The timetable is that you can only make your court application 3 months after having given social services formal notice of your intention to adopt (a letter is fine). You also have to have lived with the child for 6 months for the court to make the order (though to be honest that probably won't hold things up as it would probably take six months even if you started the day your baby was born, given the 3 months notice to social services, and then the court listing an initial hearing and a subsequent final hearing).'

Does this mean that we could notify social services in writing as soon as our child is born? Do we have to wait until our child is 6 months before we can make the application to the court or can we apply before that date and ensure that any final hearing is listed after our child is 6 months?

Many thanks,

Nicki


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Apologies - I think my earlier post was slightly misleading.  You have to have been living with your child for six months to make the application, rather than for the court to make the order.

So:
- Yes you can notify social services as soon as your child is born (the notice lasts for 2 years and has to be made at least 3 months before the court application).
- You have to wait until your child is six months old to submit your court application.
- It will then probably take you a couple of months to get the order through.

I'd also endorse Mabel's excellent post having been through the process myself and having had various clients who have too.  The only thing I would add is that the process does seem to vary depending on locality as to how much information the social workers require, and whether you end up with one or two court hearings.  There are also quite a few social workers out there that don't have a clue, and they have a tendency to make more of a meal of the process than is necessary.  The courts on the whole seem to be much more easy-going!

Natalie
[email protected]
Lester Aldridge LLP solicitors


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## nickidee (Sep 16, 2007)

Hi Nathalie,
Thanks for this.
I contacted our local authority (early days, I know, but you can take the girl out the girl guides but not the girl guide out of the girl... so to speak!) just to ask who we needed to address the notice of intent to. They didn't give me the information I requested but told me to ring them to discuss first. Any ideas why?
Nicki


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## magsandemma (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi Natalie

Another question, just wanted to ask, as we have not had a CP yet, we cannot do a parental responsibilty form and cannot go for adoption for Emma for a few months, so is there anything else we can do in the meantime to give emma any rights for the baby, I know that I need to do a living will and need to do that soon, as time creeping up on us.

Thanks
Maggie


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Nicki - They could be trying to clarify what kind of application you're making (I've had experience of a few social workers who get a bit bemused by the whole concept of same sex families and try to apply the unrelated-adoption rules rather than the partner and step-parent rules which are completely different).  Just keep insisting that you're making a partner/ step-parent application.  Let me know if you need any help.

Maggie - You just need to sort out your wills.  If you appoint Emma as legal guardian in your will, she will get parental responsibility automatically if you die.  That protects you just in case the worst happens before you've managed to get the adoption sorted.

Natalie
[email protected]
Associate at Lester Aldridge LLP solicitors


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## Mable (Apr 9, 2005)

Hi,
Just to update. We went to court on Friday and I (as non-bio mum) have now adopted our son and have the same legal rights as my partner. Feels like we did in the beginning when we planned this whole thing. As she became pregnant and I became legally invisible, we have been moving towards this point, making wills, me gaining PR to this point where we are equal again. 

Am very glad that I have the same legal rights now but have to say it seems faintly ridiculous that we have to do all this, when my male counterpart can plonk himself on the birth certificate AND pretend to be the child's biological father. Whereas, here I am going through PR and now a year long court process to gain equal rights.

But I have them. It feels good, like it did to finally become civil partners. In a legal kind of way.

Good luck to everyone doing this. Please do IM me if I can shed any light helpfully on this process. Let's hope the law changes very soon.
Mable


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## Alison0702 (Apr 7, 2006)

Well done Mable    I bet it feels good. Was Friday scary?


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## evelet (Sep 27, 2005)

yes congratulations to you mable! Its weird to think i haven't even applied to adopt J yet. We were told there was no point and we might as well do 2 together as 1 at a time. Sound advice I'm sure but dunno whether I should have just pushed on with it  

anyway, i am going to use a solicitor - i know its not a necessity but i am one and get free legal as a perk of the job so i thought i might as well use it. When we spoke to the social worker from our local authority she said the process was quite intrusive but i'm hoping if we remind them its the same as a step-parent adoption it won't be too bad. I can't imagine there have been a great deal of these types of adoptions in the North Lincolnshire area so far...


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Congratulations Mabel!  You may be interested to know that they are talking about changing the law so that in the future non-birth mums can go on the birth certificate (so no adoption process needed).  It's been drafted and just about to start going through parliament - I'll keep you all posted as it progresses.  If it doesn't help those of you conceiving now, it may help for future siblings.

Eve - The process shouldn't be too intrusive.  It's so tricky where you get a difficult social worker, because you want them to write a good report so don't want to **** them off but equally you don't want to take any crap from them (ours, for example, wanted us to pay £150 for the GP report she insisted on getting - which we politely refused to do!).  Best of luck!

Natalie


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## Mable (Apr 9, 2005)

Hi Alison - No it wasn't scary. The judge didn't wear a wig and it was terribly informal. I'd never been to court before but it was just a gathering around tables, not a witness box type of thing that I was expecting.

Monty was reading a book on his grandad's knee and treated us all to his full range of animal sounds, the judge guessing which animal it was as she couldn't see the book. The hearing was a complete formality. She couldn't remember which one of us was adopting and it was just a 10 minute chat 'making conversation' and then she signed the thing.

Nat - Thanks for all your advice and experience of this process, without which I doubt we would have had the nouse to embark on it without legal help. We told the judge about this change in the law that is about to go through parliament! She was a bit shirty about this because she didn't know anything about it. It's certainly about time the law changes.

Eve - hope you can guide your social worker through the process without it being too intrusive. At first our one said she'd have to meet friends and interview them etc but when we challenged this she realised it would be a straightforward step parent adoption. I suppose you've got to wait 6 months from the birth of your next baby though, which is a pain. (_BTW_, I saw your question about slings. Not sure if you've seen, there's a thread going on Gingerbeer at the mo about which slings people recommend. Mind you, some of those women on there are very bossy, it's like there's one right answer and the rest of us have got it all wrong!).

It does feel good, especially after our horrible summer, to have achieved something, to have got something good. IVF is so crap when it doesn't work.


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## starrysky (Dec 6, 2004)

CONGRATULATIOns to Mable and Edith  0n Mables adoption, that is Mables adoption of Monty!!         (that's the judge!)


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## nickster (Jul 6, 2007)

I second that Starrysky... huge congrats to *Mable * and family!!! x


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Starssky - love your judge!  May just have to adopt that in my sign-off for emails to the court - what do you reckon?!!!


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## duff (May 26, 2006)

Mable - huge congratulations on the adoption!  It's been really useful to read about how you've done it as I'd like T to adopt our future little one as soon as possible.


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## crazycat (Apr 15, 2005)

Hello all,
This hasn't got much to do with ttc or parenting (unless you count the logistical nightmare of two cars, two part time workers and one car seat!) but I need a little rant                       
Ahhh -thats better.
You all would not believe the amount of trouble I am having with my car insurance, through Budget & I would not ever touch them again with a barge pole!  In a nutshell they keep saying that I can only add Heather onto my policy for business use if we were married, oh and by the way they do not recognise civil partnership.  I did point out that this is unlawful and I have also contacted Stonewall for a bit of help challenging them but honestly, anyone would think we were in the 15th century!
Grrr.
Jo


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi Jo

That's TERRIBLE and completely illegal under the Good and Services Regulations.  I'm sure Stonewall will help you sort it out.

It still shocks me how many financial institutions don't seem to have a civil partnership option in their list of tick boxes - I always default to married as that's what CP is really anyway.


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## DexTerity (Nov 27, 2007)

Hi

Just want some clarification here. Does the non bio mother in a civil partnership still have to apply for parental responsibility and or adopt?

Confused.


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## Mable (Apr 9, 2005)

Yes, at the moment, but it's quite straightforward thanks to the civil partnership. I've done both in the past year, without needing a solicitor.

The process/ease varies depending on whether you have a known donor or anon donor sperm, but essentially applying for PR is really quick and easy, adoption is more long and drawn out but I (non-bio mum) found both straightforward.

There are descriptions on how to do these things on here. If there isn't one about how to do PR, I can find it and post it.


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi DexTerity

You can get PR as soon as you have registered your child's birth. You just need to fill in a step parent PR agreement form and then sign it in front of a clerk from your local family court office (there are detailed instructions on the back of the form). Here's a link to the form you need:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/HMCSCourtFinder/GetForm.do?court_forms_id=1098

Adoption is more of an involved process. You can't apply until your child is 6 months old. As Mable says, it's quite straightforward, particularly if you've used an unknown donor, but if you do want pointing in the right direction I do a pre-adoption consultation at which I explain exactly what you need to do and give you all the paperwork you need.

Good luck!

Natalie


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Nat

Thanks so much for the wonderful advice your give ( and the technical things simplified!!)

Can I ask I am TTC with a known donor (friend) and he has a partner, so on a birth cert my known donor would be father- would his partner have or be entitled to be a step parent as well- but then the 3 of us would be involved or can you have PR that way? Ideally I would like some back up if something happened to me death/illness etc as I am single.

The boys haven't had their CP yet, they did Ken Livingstone's register a few years back and may have a CP next year as they want a big do as had a small intimate affair before!

Many thanks
L x


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## NatGamble (Mar 1, 2007)

Hi JJ1

Yes it sounds like your donor will be your child's father (assuming you are either home conceiving or, if you are going through a clinic, you intend him to be involved in your child's upbringing).  

It is up to you whether you name him on the birth certificate or not - doing so will give him parental responsibility.  That's fine if you are planning to co-parent, but be aware that it strengthens his position against you if you did end up in dispute.  Have you given any thought to signing a co-parenting agreement?

If he has parental responsibility, his partner can acquire parental responsibility too as a step-parent if they are registered as civil partners.  You just need to use the same form as you would for a non-birth mum (there's a link posted elsewhere on this thread).  

It's probably not possible for him to acquire PR before they register as civil partners (because the alternative route of applying for a joint residence order normally requires them to be living with your child, which I assume they won't be).

However, if you're concerned about back up if something happened to you, it might be a good idea for you to appoint the two of them as guardians.  They would then automatically get PR if you did die.

Let me know if you'd like my help with sorting out the wills/ co-parenting agreement/ parental responsibility agreement.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks so much Natalie makes perfect sense
L xx


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