# Our place to chat



## Debs

Ladies,

I thought it might be a nice idea for us to have a chit chat thread where we can share what we are up to, funny stories, get to know each other as individuals and maybe some light hearted banter for those of us who feel up to it.

I know these boards are a god send in terms of support and of course that will always continue - but do you think it would be nice for us just to be able to chit chat?

These boards carry such a heavy heart and it might be nice for some chatter away from our problems once in a while.

Please please dont anyone think im saying anything untoward by posting this thread but maybe just maybe if this thread takes off, someone who is having a bad day might read in here and see someones silly antics that bring a smile to their face  

Let me know what you think.

love

Debs xxx


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## doddyclaire

Hi Debs

Just reading through and I get what you're saying.  I kinda feel I want some where to post that is about managing your emotions, without the rawness but kind of like how we're getting through the days, if we have some new goals, that kind of thing.
I daily feel a sadness but I know that weeping, wailing and beating my gums will achieve nothing except panda eyes and a headache!!

Claire xx


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## Libran

Hi
It's time to take stock and re-evaluate life.  My goals are as follows:-
1.Currently doing a home study A Level course in Psychology;
2.Looking in to doing some charity work, and, in particular, registering our dog to be a PAT (Pet's as Therapy) dog (not sure if he'll make the grade, though, he's such a mutt   ;
3. Looking for a new job; and
4. Looking to make some child free friends.  
No. 4 is the most difficult.  How on earth do we manage this ?  I don't want to "withdraw" from life completely, but, at the same time, I do find baby chatter difficult, and, at the end of the day, don't have much in common with mums whose lives have taken such a different direction to mine.  Any suggestions ?
Take care all X


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## rachel petch

Doddyclaire, I feel like that also, I had a total meltdown yesterday after having too much wine!  We have decided to stop tx, after 3 fresh and 1 frozen cycles. I feel so angry, sad, crushed, and lost to say te least, I know my husband feels sad too, but I feel like I'm losing it. I can't concentrate on my work. I just feel like the world is so unfair, blah blah, blah!!!!!!


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## doddyclaire

Rachel - sorry to see you here hun   I think i'm either over that stage or it hasn't actually hit - which is more scary!  I am worried about myself, I have literally been drinking a bottle of wine a night since the result and I am knackered from holding it all together and carrying on like everything is ok!!
Big hugs to you lovely   xxx

Libran - Love the pic of your doggy - is that the one you're hoping to become a PAT?  Sounds like you have lots to keep you busy.  Your no. 4 is almost impossible I think - such a hard choice!

I'm off tomorrow to meet some friends from here, some of which have been lucky and will have their bundles with them, we've met a few times before but for me this will be the first since the tarmac on the road run out, not sure how I will handle it, but I want to go, these girls have been such good friends I can't see that changing.


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## Debs

Hi girls  

Ive been away for the weekend so only just catching up  

Claire - you dont have to keep holding it together - you are allowed a major paddy - its only natural.  I stopped putting on the brave face and told people if they asked how I was how I felt .... hmmmm some of the responses was interesting   but in the main people understood    I hope meeting your friends went ok?  Let us know how you got on xxx

Libran - good on you for having something to focus on!  Love the idea of the pooch being a PAT - mine wouldnt stand a chance he's a hooligan     The friends thing is difficult isnt it    Some of my friends children are grown up now so they are in the throws of becoming grandparents, others are single and not looking for a relationship but give it time im sure they will be.  Ive been invited to a friends daughters baby shower in the next few weeks and not sure how to "deal" with it.  Im delighted for her I truly am and if there was babies there I "think" I could cope with that - but I just struggle with bumps   and all the new baby clothes/blankets etc.  Im starting to get a bit cross with myself to be honest but ive never been to one before so this is a new one on me.  Im sure my friend would understand but the closer its getting the more im winding myself up over it  

Rachel its still early days hun - the world is unfair      Just take one day at a time and post in here and we can all help you along.

Speak soon girls - take care.

Love

Debs xxx


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## doddyclaire

Hey girls,

Had a lovely day saturday, was so nice to see the girls and their babies, really was, then while I was comforting one of them it dawned on me I would never comfort my own child, I held it together until I got home, then completely lost the plot!!

Debs - Hmm...not sure how i'd feel about a baby shower either, maybe go for a bit but make your excuses early?!

x


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## Libran

Hi Girls
Claire, good to hear that you enjoyed meeting with your friends on Sat. Not so good about the meltdown afterwards, though. Did you hit the wine ?
I generally cuddle the dog and eat chocolate when I'm feeling like that ! It's not emotionally healthy to hide away from life and avoid friends, but, at the same time, we have to protect ourselves too. Well done on surviving, anyway. You are very brave  
Debs, it obviously has to be a personal choice / decision, but, speaking for myself, I could not cope with the baby shower. Personally, I could probably cope well with an event where lots of children were present (ie a wedding or a birthday party) but I think the entire focus and raison d'etre of a baby shower is to celebrate motherhood, and I could not cope with that. All the conversation and focus would be entirely baby related, and, also, if it is held in someones home, it would be difficult to make a discreet and quick get away if you did feel that it was getting too much. Maybe see how you feel nearer the time, but I would be tempted to make my polite excuses and deliver a card and present beforehand. 
My strategy at the moment (so long as finances allow !!  ) is to keep organising regular treats in the diary to keep my spirits up. Just had a week away in Yorkshire, which was fab, and going to London (West End) to see The Jersey Boys next weekend for my birthday weekend. Hopefully, singing away to "Oh What a Night" (late December back in '63....) will take my mind off getting older myself  
Rachel, sorry you are so raw at the moment.  It WILL get easier, hun, promise you X
Take care all XX


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## doddyclaire

Libran - Hit the wine??  Sheeeeeeeet...I nearly drowned in it 

I like the sound of your regular treats, we've lined up a few 
xx


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## Nordickat

Is it ok if i join your chitchat? I'm feeling a bit lonely and isolated so i could do with a safe place where i blend in rather than stick out like a huge childless thumb!

Claire I'm sorry to see you here but at the same time i'd be honoured to share the 'moving on' thing with you. And i think the meltdown was probably good for you xxx

Debs i'd like to think i could do a babyshower but I'm not sure i could. Its the bumps that get me too.

Libran I'm a yorkshire lassie and quite jealous of your week there  DH nearly wet himself when i suggested training our lunatic as a therapy dog. I'd love it though. When I'm in a better place I'm hoping to train in horticultural therapy. I am better at keeping plants under control than i am my dog lol.

Rachel it is unfair. It really is (((hugs)))

I reckon living childfree is way more expensive than having kids! Drowning my sorrows is costing a small fortune, as will buying a whole new larger size wardrobe if i can't get the comfort eating under control lol. And as for the cheer up treats ............

Enjoy your evenings,
Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat!!  I've often thought of you lovely, and wondered how you're "getting on"!

xxx


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## Nordickat

I've been stalking you Claire so knew how you were getting on. I've not been in a very sunny place recently so wasn't able to contact you. Today i feel braver  I've been out of hospital since easter (very proud kat) and last week was the first time i have almost been sent back. I have gold stars for lack of looniness ;-) So, up and down in answer to your question but pleased there is a place where we can all chat and feel 'normal'.


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## doddyclaire

I'm glad to hear you're out, are you still on medication?  Jeez I wish I could give you a big squeeze!  Up & down is the way its gonna be for a while yet i'm guessing.
How's your pooch? xx


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## Nordickat

lol, i have uppers and I have downers, and if I take them together I can almost come across as balanced    I still find vino the best soother though ....... chablis this evening    Pooch has a bad leg so its a trip to the vets tomorrow, although I have noticed he limps more when he fancies a cuddle or a yummy treat so he will no doubt be completely fine when we get to the surgery tomorrow. How about your furry friend? And are you managing to curb your wine intake at all? Not a good way to deal with things young lady!! I know pot and kettle and all that


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## doddyclaire

Haha I did proper lol then, thinking that's rich coming from you!!
Your pooch knows the tricks then!!  My furry one is ok, 14 now so old man!!
And mine is sauvignon blanc this evening, diet starts next week


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## Nordickat

All 18kg of my boy is trying to curl up on my knee, bad leg and all. I do think pets are one of the best ways to lift your spirits. Where would we be without them hey?! I was busy filling a bag with treats in the petshop at the weekend and when i turned round, pooch had emptied all the squeaky toys from a bucket and was snuffling them all to chose his favourite. Such a wee treasure.

Bedtime for us now. Sleep well everyone.
Katxxx


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## Libran

Morning Girls !
Kat, I LOVED our time in Yorkshire.  We were based in Glaisdale, and visited Whitby, Goathland and took pooch on the steam train (used for scenes in the Harry Potter films, I think) down to Pickering.  Where abouts in Yorks are you from ?  Are you living the ex-pat life now ?
Sorry to hear about pooch's poorly leg.  How did you get on at vets ?
Claire, what treats have you got lined up ?  This treat business can get very expensive, but I try and tell myself that it is money I've "saved" by not having kids, so I'll bloomin well spend it on myself and DH instead !   
Debs - have you had any more thoughts on the baby shower ?
Feeling a bit low today - it's my birthday and I HATE the feeling of getting older and life passing me by.  Hey, ho.  Got to remain strong.
Kat, your comment about feeling "normal" really struck me.  My mantra for the week is going to be "I may statistically be in a minority, but that does not make me "abnormal" 
XXX


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## doddyclaire

Morning 

Libran - Happy birthday!!  I better raise a glass to you tonight then!!
My treats are going to see Muse later this month, and The Killers next month, with a weekend break in London, then looking at visiting Europe for a long weekend in Dec, getting married next year (which was always on the plan but now oh so much more expensive!!) and hoping to get Glastonbury tickets for next summer, plus i'm doing Glastonbudget festival for my hen weekend!  Oh and the Kindle fire is on order for me, and the OH is having an ipad!! MUST FIND CHEAPER TREATS!!

Kat - Hope the vet visit is ok, and nothing serious up with hound, although I suspect he'll continue the act if it equates to more treats 

My pa has family oop north so I visited earlier this year, Chesterfield way, was nice to have a stomp around the area!!


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## Nordickat

Happy Birthday Libran  . I'm always miserable on my birthday too but this year we we didn't celebrate as such, we just used it as an excuse to eat nice food. I hope your day gets better though  .

I'm from North Yorkshire and probably ate more than my body weight in fish and chips in Whitby during my years up north. And yep, I'm an expat now, in Norway.

Vets was a none event and we have to go back on Thursday as his vet wasn't there. He broke his leg (unfixable  ) when he was young and after too much running like a loon this last 2 weeks, its really sore and swollen again. I'm not sure if his sadness is making me sad, or my sadness making him sad   .

Blimey Claire  That's some serious pick-me-up treats! If it was cheap though it wouldn't be a treat  . We are looking at a week in the Azores hiking as our Autumn treat. Its looks lovely and the Portugese make some very fine wines   . I can highly recommend 'Guernsey literary and potato peel pie society' as your first read when your Kindle arrives. 

Right, I have psycho-motor therapy now which always makes me cry. I think the lady is too nice. You know how it is when someones asks how you are because they genuinely care and want to help ......... cue waves of tears and snot  

Happy birthday again Libran. I hope it turns into a good one.
Katxxx


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## Libran

Hi Girls
Many thanks for the kind birthday wishes.  Survived the day (forget getting old, at least it's an excuse to eat chocolate fudge cake !) and raised a toast to you all last night.  Thanks for helping me survive    at least I got through the day.


Claire, loving the treat list.  Go go go.  I've got a Kindle (the earlier edition) and can highly recommend We Need to Talk About Kevin by Lionel Schriver.
Read it whilst in Yorkshire, and was totally engrossed.  You must have your hands full with the wedding plans.  Were are you getting married and what sort of wedding are you planning ?  If you are thinking of a weekend away in Dec, why don't you try checking out the christmas markets in Germany ?  Lived there for a while, and there is nothing like them.
Kat, sorry the vet trip was a non-event, and hope you didn't cry too much during the psycho-motor therapy   Ah yes, fish & chips in Whitby - had plenty of those !!!  Will give Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society a go, if only cos the title is sooo intriguing.  Who's it by ?  As for your doggie, I suspect they do pick up on our moods, but, then, we are sad when they are sad too, so it's a chicken and egg thing I suppose.


Azores sounds fab, but the hiking sounds very energetic (I generally walk no more than 2hrs at a time).  Still, I need to get to grips with some weight loss, so maybe I need to exert myself more !
Take care X


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## Rowan22

Happy belated birthday, Libran. I'm glad you found something to enjoy about your day. The cake sounds very nice, actually! My dh and my brother are both Librans, too.
Hi, Kat, how are you doing? I'm glad you're out of hospital, that sounds very positive. 
Not sure I really belong here, as we're still trying to find a surrogate but that in itself is an admission of defeat, really. I have given up on my body, it has too many health issues. If we don't find one soon, that will be that. It's been more or less ten years, with breaks for illnesses (not as long as some people, I know but long enough). Time to do something else with life, I guess. 
One positive about getting older is that at least my contemporaries either are or soon will be facing the empty nest syndrome. I can chat to them without having to deal with toddlers in tow! If their children do appear, they will probably be pleasant young adults and I can cope with that. 
I am cautiously trying to make a life again, even volunteering at a local community garden. The grief will keep coming back, though. 
And we've adopted two kittens and one rescue cat. They do help. They all have very distinctive personalities!

Take care,

Rowanxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - Hope your session was ok    

Libran - Glad you had a good day - I hope you enjoyed last night - I had a glass of wine for you (for real) and then took you (virtually!!) to the cinema to see The Sweeney - you were fairly quiet but I laughed like a drain in places 
The wedding is fairly small in a hotel local to us, mind you the cost seems to be snowballing as we are having everything we want!!  Band now booked for the evening do!  Not til next Sept

Rowan - Hi  I'm a sucker for cats - keep threatening to end up as the mad cat woman in our village


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## Nordickat

Being a mad cat lady is ok. Better than the mad foreign couple with chickens and bees ........ just wait til we get the alpakka too ;-) I just snivelled rather than balled at therapy this week although I have a proper shrink session tomorrow which is much more painful. 

Libran your cake sounded lush. A curious book title is as good a reason as any to by a book. I read 'the particular sadness of lemon cake' out of curiosity too and loved it. The GL&PPS is written by Shaffer & Barrows. I have a 4 quid (and 5 star) amazon rule so will see if the Kevin book falls into my categories yet.

Claire you deserve everything you fancy at your wedding. Can we help you pick a honeymoon? Another 12 months to wait though? You need to taste a few menus and wines first I guess. Are you not bursting to get married right now though?!?

Hi Rowan. Long time no talk  Congrats on your new feline friends.

Grey grey grey here today so looking forward to a hot chocolate and puppy cuddles when I get home. I hope the sun shines on all today both for real and metaphorically.

Katxxx


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## Nordickat

Azores booked! Walking at a sedate pace rather than hiking ;-) 
Grey day turned to pishing down and floods at home. Is it too early to get into PJs?


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## doddyclaire

Well well - The Azores it is for you!!  Think honeymon will be much more sedate for us, am thinking we'll go back to Cuba as we loved it so much last year.
Wedding has to be next year as thats the earliest my family can get over from Australia, and I want them here.

So....traumas on the road today, getting work (I kid you not) a lorry had shed its load of onions - police were a-peeling (geddit??!) for witnesses      It is true - road was closed most of the day!!
And this afternoon just before leaving work three lorries decided to play bumper cars with each other, although that one looks more serious so wont crack gags at that....

NO, never to early for pj's, and if I wasn't heading back out i'd be in mine, but tonight my dear brother is taking me to see Ultravox, now there's a blast from the past 
Big huggles ahead of tomorrow's sesh xx


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## Libran

Claire - just love your sense of humour !  Sorry I was so quiet during The Sweeney.  Will try and be more talkative and appreciative during the next "virtual" film that you take me to.  Your wedding plans sound fab.  A live band, family over from Oz and then off to Cuba on honeymoon.  Perfect.  If we don't get to pick the honeymoon destination, do we at least get to have final approval on the menu / food choices ?!  I'd get Gordon Ramsey to do the main course (possibly chicken) and Mary Berry to make the cake.  Failing that, do we get to choose the dress like in Don't Tell The Bride ?!!
Hope you enjoy your evening out listening to Ultravox with your brother.  Oh Vienna !
Wish I could snuggle up early in my PJ's too tonight, but got to work, so no go.  
Kat, good luck for the session tomorrow.  We'll all be thinking of you and sending positive vibes.  The Azores, hey !  Fantastic.  Very jealous.  Definitely feel like the next treat trip needs to be booked SOON !!!  You'll have a fantastic time.  In addition to the SEDATE walking, will you be partaking in some wine tasting by any chance ?!!!  Remember, you will probably need to be walking in a straight line........
Rowan, great to hear from you.  How are you ?  You are definitely sounding stronger, which is wonderful.  Your cats sound adorable.  There is absolutely nothing wrong in loving animals.  At least their love (unlike human love) is unconditional and uncomplicated.
Right, one more phone call to make, then it's PJ's time and leftovers chocolate fudge cake XX


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## Nordickat

Ooh Libran, now you're talking. Tasting food is a particular area of expertise of mine so maybe we should be Claires wedding planners and test a few menus for her   ......... I'm guessing we'll not get away with sneaking to Cuba with her too  . Is Mary Berry the old dear on 'the great British bakeoff'? I quite like her and I'd like her cakes for sure.

House rules mean we always have to have a trip away planned so I have something to focus one. I was getting a bit jittery before we booked the Azores. We are getting quite into our Portuguese wine at the moment so yep, wine tasting is on the agenda ...... and lots of it. You need to plan somewhere too Libran, it really helps I think if you have something nice on the horizon.

Blimey Claire. Ultravox?! Are they still going? I hope you had fun and relived some youth,  although preferably without the Diamond White or whatever your tipple was back then  And I'm ashamed to admit that I actually laughed at your onion joke ..... times are hard   . Are you Australian then or have your family moved there? I've just remembered where you live now. I was there 2 weeks ago. Fancy coffee next time?

Torrential rain here last night. All the sand between the stones on our path washed out and it looks like the remains of a sandcastle competition at the bottom of the path today. Thankfully the cellar hasn't flooded as I had visions of my chicks floating about in little life rafts down there.

Oh, and a wonderful benefit of being childfree occurred to me this morning as I was making my coffee. How many mums to young toddlers have time to make themselves a proper espresso in the morning hey? No way have they the time to go through the therapeutic ritual of making proper coffee and then appreciating the taste before they get the kids of to kindergarten. They probably all have Nespresso machine instead ........ philistines   . Ok, so I'm scraping the barrel here on the benefits but all these small things must add up to our longterm happiness don't you think?

Well, best get hop-along-hound to the vets, bless him.

Love Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Morning

Danciiiing with tears in my eyeeeessss  &  OOOHHHHHH VIENNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!
LOL!!  Had a cracking time last night, they were amazing, all the old classics plus a few new ones too, boy they look so old but sounded awesome!!

So Libran - tomorrow i'm thinking of taking you to see Paranorman - I have my nephew staying so need something kid friendly - fancy it?!  LOL!!  And yes - you so do neeeeeeed to book treats up, esp ones that involve leaving home for a few days or more 

Kat - Hope the vets appt goes ok, and that pooch actually gets seen today    Oh Diamond white - now THATS a blast from my mispent youth!!  Afraid I was driving last night so didn't have much more than one g&t until I got home.  Definitely up for a coffee next time you're in the vicinity, where were you by the way?
Nope i'm a a Brit through & through, my brother moved out there 10+ years ago, married and now has a daughter who will hopefully be a bridesmaidy type thing!

So - wedding organisers - the venue is picked, as is the band, and indeed the dress - I am running out of tasks for you, invites sorted - "theme" (coz you have to have one) is the eye of a peacock feather so google image away to your hearts contents, am more than happy for you to!!


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## Susan01

Hi Folks,
I've just done a speed-read through your posts, and felt inspired to join in! We've now got 6 chickens, a duck, 2 cats and 2 dogs (one now a pushy teenager). I always said that if I couldn't have children I'd surround myself with animals instead. The positive side of infertility, miscarriage and depression for me have included moving to a small but perfectly formed cottage with the most wonderful views and peace and quiet, and taking control of work and searching out new things (I now have 3 jobs rather than 1) to replace the work I'd grown to hate. It's still very hard (just now it's the first anniversary of my miscarriage), but there are ups too.

I've found that I socialise more with older people now. They don't have the current concerns of couples with kids still at home.


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## Nordickat

Hi susan. Ducks are fab. We had 2 callducks and they were such characters. The male used to come and sit on the back step and snitch on the girl whenever she was up to no good ....... like raiding the neighbours veg patch ;-) Too cold here though to give them water all year so we have 4 bantam chooks and 6 chicks. 2 are boys though so might have to go at some point. We have about 100000 bees too. Surprisingly therapeutic if you fancy a new project ;-) Good for you for finding the energy to move house and find the right jobs. Is it too nosey to ask about your jobs?

Claire i was thinking of a more active role as wedding planner. I don't have the flare for designing invites anyway but i'm a damn good food and wine taster. I was in woodbridge for a long weekend but popped to Ipswich for my annual pant shop at M&S.

Pooch news is very sad. It seems we have 2 choices; put him down now, or try and operate with a 25% chance of failure and have to have him put down anyway. He is the reason i get up in the morning so I'm very upset about it all. He's only 3 :-((


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## doddyclaire

Oh Kat   why does everything have to be so damn f**king hard... There neither great choices are they, but if you have to pick one....i'd go for the operation, easy to say from miles away and not being in your shoes honey but he's so young still, and deserves a fighting chance in my book. xx

Will always need food & wine tasting friends, even after the big day, so when you're next around definitely pencil me in for a sesh!

Hi Susan - Wow, thats one hell of a menagerie you have going on there!!  And crikey - house move AND 3 jobs??


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## Libran

Oh Cat, I am so, so very sorry to hear about pooch   
I agree 100% with Claire.  Neither option is good, but, given his young age, I would definitely go for the operation as he deserves a fighting chance.  Have you got insurance cover for him ?  We had to have our last Jack Russell put down at the age of 10 yrs, as he didn't have enough collagen in his system and his achilles tendon kept snapping.  It was, without a doubt, one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make, so I really do empathise. Stay strong, you WILL get through it.
Yes, Mary Berry is the lady on The Great British Bake Off (one of my current TV fav's).  Love your house rule about having always to have a trip planned and definitely MUST get on to it, but just don't have the funds at the moment...............  
Claire, I really didn't like Paranorman, and the popcorn was rubbish.  Can we go and see The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo to get a glimpse of Daniel Craig next time, please    Are you in Suffolk ?  What's the wedding dress like ? Does it include peacock feathers, by any chance ?!!!  Just guessing, given the theme of your wedding.  I'm only tiny (5ft) and my wedding dress had to be boil washed and shrunk to fit !!!  
Hi Susan, I totally agree with you about how animals can help with healing.  I'm interested to know why you swapped one job for three ?  I have a job that I hate (with a passion) and really want to go freelance, but funds are tight enough as it is, and I'm just not brave enough to take the plunge.  I really admire you for taking control of your life and taking responsibility for "creating" your own happiness rather than waiting for happiness to land in your lap. 
Now totally p'd off.  Have come in from a long day at the hated work, have put PJ's on and ready to settle down, and DH wants to watch football all night..........................WHAT IS IT WITH MEN AND THE REMOTE CONTROL ?!!!!


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## doddyclaire

Libran - Oh ok, we'll skip that movie and find something else!!
Sorry you had to say goodbye to your terrier, must have been so damn hard, I am dreading the day my puss needs helping along, he's been so ill on & off over the last couple of years, have often thought "this is the time"
I am also a Bake Off fan although tend to end up watching it at the weekend when I can get properly gooey over Mr Hollywood!!  Now he can berate me over my batter anyday 
Yes i'm in Suffolk, just outside Ipswich, and I too am 5" so the dress is being taken up, although its not got any peacock feathers on it - my headpiece has, and my shoes are aqua blue/green 

So....men - mine is engrossed in the new Red Dwarf series, not something I find amusing


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## Rowan22

Oh Kat, what terrible news about your dog! I am so sorry you're faced with this on top of everything else!
I would try the operation but this is coming from someone who spent over a thousand pounds on a cat earlier this year because the cat needed an op. Six weeks later the cat died from cancer, totally unrelated to the op and coming completely out of the blue. Various people then asked me if I regretted spending the money on the operation...! Of course I said I didn't, we didn't, it was just a coincidence, that was all. I hope everything goes well if you do choose to have the op. 3 is very young. I am sorry.
Libran, hi, well yes, perhaps a little stronger. I don't know, though, I keep wishing I could knock 20 years or so off my age. Yes, I remember Midge Ure and 'Vienna', too, only too well. I had to go to our local city this afternoon and as usual I noticed all the parents, including the very, very young couple who plonked themselves down beside me, one of them holding the tiny baby, the other pushing the pushchair which was filled with all the stuff they'd bought. 
I felt very old and very useless, especially as these days I can only wander around the city for a relatively brief time before I have to rest. It was at that point that I realised that I probably am just too old and too unwell to be anybody's parent - and how I wished for some sort of way of going back in time!
Congratulations, Doddyclaire! Enjoy all those wedding preps! I really enjoyed the time leading up to the big day. 
Susan, we don't have ducks but we do have chickens and we've had them for years. They give us loads of eggs and they're fun, wandering around the garden. When they run, they look like Victorian ladies with those great big skirts!
Take care everyone,

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

Don't worry, my little man will be having the operation for sure. Its just a case of finding the best man for the job. Thankfully I have a FF vet buddy and she is fab and has checked out our best vets and stuff and made me feel a bit better about it all. I'm just not ready to lose him yet. Thanks for your words though. My FiL said he would never have another dog because its so unbearable when they go and I thought he was just being soft but now I understand what he meant.

Rowan I didn't know you had chickens too   . 

My DHs tv show of choice is rugby ......... in Welsh   

We are heading to the mountains for some peace and quiet this weekend so catch up with you all next week. Enjoy your weekends.
Katxxx

PS. I'm 6"1' by the way


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## doddyclaire

Kat - Have a lovely weekend away, hope the weather isn't too brutal!!  How tall??!    LOL!!

xx


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## fluffy73

hi ladies

just wondering if there is room for another "trying to move on" person who can join in the chat.  After my failed IVF due to low egg reserve i feel quite low. just looking for some moral support to help me move on.

cheers

a


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## rachel petch

Hi fluffy, and welcome!!!!!   all the ladies here are lovely, so you ve come to the right place!!!! Xxx


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## doddyclaire

Morning girls!!

Kat - Love your new avatar!!  Fab!!

Fluffy & Rachel - Sorry you've found us, you're both very welcome i'm sure, just wish everyone's circumstances were diff  

So, made the most of the bottle of champagne last night, luckily his lordship isn't really keen so I have to drink it all 

Have a nice weekend


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## Libran

Did everyone have a good weekend ?
Kat, hope you enjoyed your time in the mountains and are now back and fully refreshed after the required dose of peace and quiet. Glad you are feeling stronger about pooch. How is he doing ?
Claire - a WHOLE bottle of champagne to yourself. Sounds like bliss. I have a similar selfish attitude to my bottle of Baileys - DH never gets a look in  
Welcome to Fluffy73 and Rachel Petch. The more the merrier    
Not had a bad weekend, but difficult in parts. Stayed at m-in-laws over the weekend and went in to London on Sat to see The Jersey Boys.
London trip was all good (Jersey Boys was fab) but had to endure in depth discussion by m-in-law about her forthcoming trip to America in a few months time to meet newly born great-nephew (tactful is not a word ever to be used in the same sentence as reference to my m-in-law) and then met up with friends on Sat night for a chinese meal and had to make lots of small talk about their 5 yr old. I coped OK - not the end of the world - but had a few wobbly moments that were covered up by stuffing the sweet and sour chicken and prawn toasts   
Back home now. Going to walk pooch now then settle down to X-Factor.


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## Nordickat

Hi fluffy and welcome to the pose.
Hi to you too Rachel 
Claire - i hope your champers hangover wan't too painful ;-) I'm quite proud of my avatar. 
Libran - I'm glad you got through the MiL visit and glad the sweet and sour eased the pain of saturday night. Pooch had a lovely weekend. When he is out and about he forgets the pain and just lives for the moment ....... we should all learn from him i guess. Now he is pooped and lying on his back, legs in the air, snoring like a bear. 

My weekend wasn't as relaxing as planned :-( Friends came too which is great normally but just bad timing. Luckily they know about everything so i don't have to try and be 'normal' if i don't feel it ......... handy as i was bouncing off the cabin walls on friday and thats hard to hide lol. The weather was glorious Claire. The autumn colours in brilliant blue sky are always pretty special. Snow on the tops already and my friend nearly came a cropper collecting water because of the ice. 

I hope you had nice weekends too Rowan, debs and Susan?

Bed and book for me now. Just started 'the angels game'
Night all xxx


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## Rowan22

Hi all,
Kat, glad you had such a good weekend. The weather sounds gorgeous! I love the autumn colours.
Libran, sorry about the totally insensitive mil. At least I'm spared that, as mine is over ninety and lives in Scotland. I have to admit I couldn't take the kiddie chat, either, it is amazing how all these people with kids always forget that we haven't got them and probably aren't interested in them. If it was any other topic of conversation, like horse racing, for example, which you couldn't share, they might realise they were being insufferably rude. 
As for me, I'm sitting here typing this with tears running down my face. Last night I made the mistake of surfing the web (when will I ever learn?) looking for childfree blogs. Most are fine, many are the result of the circs we all share but some are militant in the extreme. These are usually the 'childless by choice' blogs and of course, I found one of them. There were comments like 'I wish I cuold be sterilised' - at 24! OK, it's probably some horny young person who's sick of having to use contraception but all I could think was 'you wouldn't want that, really you wouldn't'. I thought 'If you only knew, if you only had any idea of how it feels, having an illness which wiped out both your health and your fertility at a stroke and left you to live a sad truncated life.'
Sorry, feeling sorry for myself this morning, not helped by the fact that the evil bi*ch is on its way again. How I wish the pointless cycle would just stop!
Any suggestions for how to get through the day? Luckily (or perhaps not) I don't have too much work to do. 

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Sorry your day has been so heart wrenching rowan. I still have no strategies for getting through bad days, well non i can recommend anyway. Treat yourself to some you time tonight. Favourite musikk and a good book, comedy show, go watch your chooks clucking about? Lots of nice small things can all add up and before you know it you feel ok again. I do think we have to accept that there will always be bad days but lets not go looking for them by torturing ourselves by searching for things on the web that we know will hurt. I hope your evening is better than your day.
Katxxx


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## Susan01

Sorry to post and vanish. We had my parents visiting for a long weekend, which always fills up the time. They're pretty elderly now, and my mum has been suffering from anxiety and panic attacks, so although it's lovely to see them, it's also rather stressful   

I'm now tucked up in bed with 'Shadows of the Wind', ready to nod off any moment.

So, my three jobs.... having moved to the middle of very rural Dumfriesshire, there's not much career choice, so I've gone for the 'income portfolio' idea! I was pretty much hating my work teaching violin in schools and finding it very stressful, so that's now down to 2 days a week, I do freelance marketing work from my caravan in the garden, private teaching and hopefully soon a couple of days a week in a fabulous local farm shop / cafe / dairy / community for adults with learning disabilities. So there's the long answer.

Rowan - I always force myself out for a walk or bike ride, and feel a thousand times better for it. That or large amounts of chocolate...  

Nordickat - glad pooch had a good day! Whereabouts do you live, if you don't mind me asking?

Rowan, I'm getting very good at blanking out at moments like that. I still feel bad that so often I don't ask how the children are, change the subject asap etc etc, but it's vital self protection.

Hello to everyone else who I've not managed to mention by name.


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## doddyclaire

Morning

Libran - Jersey Boys sounds fab!! Big   to your MiL and friends, some people will never "get" it will they 
Hope this week is bringing you some smiles 

Kat - Nice to have friends that do get it - and dont feel awkward when you have a "moment"!  Sounds like the weather & scenery were spectacular, you should post us a pic 

Rowan - aww   Google has a lot to bloody answer for, I hope you're feeling a little better today, sorry I wasn't on yesterday to offer virtual  

Susan - Hi!  I am loving the sound of your three jobs!!  Wish I felt in a position to change mine completely but I know i'll never do it!

We (well OH) had a run in with a neighbour last night, not exactly a pleasant character, think hoody, stubble and gerenal thuggishness and you're in the right area.  Anyhoo, this bloke has a staffy that he "walks" off the leash all the time, but this bloody dog (I do like dogs really) always chases our cats, runnign across our front lawn to try and get them.  SO last night OH asked him if he would leash his dog while on the path outside our house because of the cats, this bloke reckons our 2 pusses chase his dog - can you believe that??  So then he was ****** & blinding telling OH to mind his own business or he'll "do"him.
We absolutely cannot do anything except try and keep the cats in, as anything we do, we have no doubt will result in retaliation


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## NickyRich

Hi all, can I join the chat please.  I'm Nicky, 37 (38 next month) and am just at the end of my 3rd and final failed IVF cycle.  I'm not going through it all again-am drained mentally, physically and emotionally.  We have been TTC for 12 years now and I'm sick of it ruling my life!  My OTD is tomorrow but started bleeding heavily yesterday, just like the twice before.  Tomorrow is the 8th anniversary for losing my beloved sister and best friend and I'm at an all time low at the moment     I was really hoping for some good news on such a sh**ty day.  I'm off work at the moment-I am planning on getting myself back together and going back after halfterm-I am an infant teacher.  At the beginning of my treatment, found out my cousin is expecting her 3rd (without really trying apparently) and my SIL has just had a baby girl.  How cruel is life   I am fed up of having the pain in my chest when I hear about pregnancies and see friends with baby bumps!!!!  I am fed up of feeling so irrational when my period arrives or when one of our scummy mothers in school is pregnant after having 3 of her children taken into care for neglect!  This time, I am going to take advantage of the counselling service being offered by the hospital-life goes on and I need it to go on in a normal way for the first time in years.  Look forward to chatting to you all xxxxxxxx   Nicky xxxx


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## Libran

Morning All   
Rowan, I am sorry you had such a bad day yesterday.  Google certainly does have a lot to answer for.  I do hope today is better for you.  There are no easy answers, but I'm going to do some reading up on the concept of "mindfulness" ('living in the moment') as I've heard that it can be very useful in retraining the mind to focus on the positive good things that we DO have in life, rather than obsessing about the negatives and what we can't have.  Other than that, my drugs of choice are chocolate and wine, and the unconditional love of my dog.
Claire, the run in with the neighbour sounds very unpleasant.  I'm a huge animal lover.  I own a dog, but I love all animals, and I would never, ever let him chase cats.  I think your request to put the dog on a lead was perfectly reasonable.  These things linger and leave a nasty taste in your mouth, though, don't they.  We've had difficult neighbours in the past, so I know how stressful it can be.  Hopefully you can just ignore this idiot from now on.
Kat - all your happiness tips sound fab.  At the moment, I'm just FED UP and EXHAUSTED with feeling miserable all the time, so I've decided that I'm simply going to CHOOSE to be happy.  Much like you, I try and appreciate and take pleasure in the little things, in the hope that they will add up to one  huge big dose of happiness.  When is pooch going to have his op ?
Susan, it sounds idyllic where you live.  I'm also very envious of your lifestyle and love the income portfolio idea.  I'm trying to build up something similar myself (several different income streams) but still in early stages.  I'm glad you enjoyed your long weekend with parents.
NickyRich - welcome.  You sound very raw at the moment.  I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your sister and the difficulties with your last TX.  Definitely take advantage of any counselling that you can.  Be gentle and kind to yourself, and take it one day at a time.
XXXX


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## rachel petch

Morning girls, 
NickyRich....... I can so relate to your situation regarding tx, we've been ttc since 2003, so nearly 10 years, and consumed with the ivf process for almost 4 years! I also have just finished our 3rd and sadly last cycle, resulting in..... Yes, you ve guessed it BFN! I would like to take this opportunity to give you a big   and glad that you ve chosen to have some counselling, I'm thinking about it at the minute, I'm sick of putting on a brave face, and every day is completely different. Today is a ****e one! I'm feeling really low today. People who have never suffered infertility will never ever know the pain that consumes you sometimes, the feeling of failure, greif and just downright uselessness!!!!!!!! (Is that even a word) lol!

  to everybody else going through this wringer!!!!!!!  xxxx


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## Libran

Rachel Petch, big   to you, hun.
I am so sorry.  There are no words that could ever be adequate.
You are right - it's a whirlwind, rollercoaster of emotions, up and down, sometimes OK sometimes dreadful, isn't it ?!
And, yes, I believe uselessness is a proper word   
Take care X


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## Susan01

Hi Rachel and Nicky. I did counseling through the NHS when I first admitted to depression, which was helpful to an extent, and saw me through my only ever pregnancy / miscarriage. But I obviously hadn't really dealt with it, and couldn't go back to work after the easter holiday (I'm a music teacher) and ended up taking about 4 months off work. Finding the right person to talk to makes such a difference. I've ended up paying for pyschotherapy with a lovely, lovely lady and it has made all the difference for me. I feel like I'm almost myself again.

Libran - have you been readingthe book byMark Williams and Danny Penman? It's very good and I still use the cd guided meditations. Hope you get somewhere with your income streams. It's definitely working so far for me - good money from marketing and teaching, and the vital social contact which I've lacked in work for years from less well paid work. When you don't have children it's so important to find meaning and enjoyment in other areas. And yes, it is totally idyllic where we live and I love it!

Doddyclaire - when I come across someone like that I try to think that they must be having a totally sh*t life to be so strung up. At least it makes me feel better!


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## Rowan22

Thanks for getting back to me, everybody, it does help.   Rachel and Nicky, so sorry about your news. Libran's right, nothing anyone can say will help right now but we're all thinking of you. Do keep posting, there are people here who know how you're feeling and at least we can offer cyber hugs.   You're not alone. And you're not useless, it's just that your body refused to perform a perfectly normal function, for some reason. I've called myself that too, so many times, but you wouldn't think you were useless if you had stomach problems, for example.
Of course, I didn't intend to find a website like that but you know how it is. Every time I surf the net I end up hurting myself, somehow. I click links from sites that are OK and find others that just aren't. Some so called 'childfree' blogs are helpful because if nothing else these women are making real efforts to fill their lives with everything other than kids but that was their choice and we had that choice taken away. Some of these sites and blogs are very anti-child, though and that isn't me, I'm afraid. I don't have much to do with children because it hurts too much, but though I've met parents I've really, really disliked becuase they seemed to be so stupid and useless, I tend to get on well with kids and they like me. Bitter irony. 
Mindfulness and meditation do help, Libran (so does chocolate, of course!   ) but it's like all these things, they're so much easier to do when you're already in a good place emotionally, aren't tired and don't have wretched PMS pains. Biking does help, especially on a gorgeous day like today but you're right, Susan, you do have to make the effort. I agree with Libran about the portfolio working life, in fact, I think it's an excellent approach. I only work part time and mostly from home, as I have to work around various medical conditions but I do try to volunteer, occasionally, to vary what I do and to meet people. With a portfolio, you have some sort of protection if the hours from one job are cut, too. I should think it's beautiful up there at this time of year.
Doddyclaire, how awful. I find people like that intimidating and bullying, which is essentially what they are, of course. It's so important to have good neighbours, unless you have the luxury of being detached with a huge garden on all sides. I don't see how this man can possibly expect you to keep your cats in and his attitude stinks, basically. I think Susan is probably right and you can guess how much of his brain is actually functioning. Not much, by the sound of it.
Hope you're all having a reasonable day. It's sunny here, which really does help. 

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

Wow, busy on here this morning   

Do as I say and not as I do Libran. I'm rubbish at taking my own advice I'm afraid and I really struggle to appreciate the good things. I've spent 6 weeks this year in the loonybin (I'm allowed to be flippant about my own mental health but would never mock anyone else so please don't anyone take offence when I say nuthouse and crazies. I refer to me and not others ....... short disclaimer there   ) and we did loads of mindfulness work. I've got some lots of tips for the waves of stress or distress that come over us in tricky situations like baby announcements etc. I can type for hours on it so just say the word if you want me to share.

Susan - I live just outside Oslo but we have a mountain retreat in shed form (no water and no power   ). We've been looking for a smallholding for a couple of years now. They don't come up often, and certainly not in our price range, in the areas we like. Norway can be pretty ******* if you stray too far from the cities  . One place we saw they said 'its great here, in winter we all race around each others land on our snow scooters' ....... not quite the peace and quiet we were aiming for lol. I'm glad to hear you are well on the mend now and I hope you are proud of yourself for that  . You shouldn't make your place sound so gorgeous because you might have us all knocking on the door by teatime ....... Dumfriesshire is more accessible than you think  You must have liked 'the angels game' if you are onto the next one. I'm getting into now too.

Libran - I'm sorry you are struggling so much  . Being miserable is so tiring so then you just can't muster the energy to do the small things so then you are even more sad. A sad vicious circle and hard to get out of. Fancy gatecrashing Susans to cheer us up a bit? Not sure about Pooches op, we're just waiting to hear from the specialist. 

Claire - that all sounds stressful with your neighbour   . I'd like to see a staffy being chased by a cat   . Like that's ever going to happen. I really hate people like that. People who have so little respect for others are always complete twonks. Isn't there some law about staffies being on leads or something? Are they on that list? No useful advice though and I hope he just forgets about it and your cats stay safe.

Nicky and Rachel   . Give counselling a go. As I explained to a lovely FF buddy last week, therapy is the only time you get to legitimately rant and rave knowing that nobody can tell you to shut up, and that they won't look at you as if you are a complete lunatic either. It really can make all the difference to how you feel if you have the right person to talk to.

Rowan - you feeling brighter today? Maybe you should just stick to a few 'safe' blogs for now and then when you start to feel stronger then you can venture on to new ones that might hurt but hopefully you can cope with the hurt more easily. Its a tough old world out there and all to often at the moment it leads to pain I know  . Hang in there, we'll look out for you   

Debs - you OK out there somewhere?

Blimey, I seem to have had plenty to say today. I wish I could find the energy for the same input at work! Speaking of which, I haven't done any work yet so I should start I suppose ......... or maybe just pop down and make another coffee  

Mountains photo to follow Claire. I'll take some on my phone this weekend for you.
Katxxx


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## NickyRich

Hi girls, thanks so much for your replies! Have been out and about with my mum today-retail therapy!! Expensive time trying to cheer myself up-lol!!! I am definately going to give counselling a go-get my head back into normal life! Only on here can I find comfort that there are people who understand how I am feeling-I used to feel like I was the only one going through this! Hubby and I are planning a long weekend break to Oxford-lots of sightseeing (and shopping!) Think we need to get away and regroup! I have been having loads of cwtches and kisses from my mum and dad's westie pup (in between bites!)
*Nordickcat*-those tips sound fab! Would love to hear some! Lee and I did a NOrweigian cruise a few years back-Norway is stunning!!  Hope it's good news about Pooch xxxxx
*Susan*-your place sounds lovely!! 
*Libran*-it's so hard to pick yourself up sometimes isn't it. Sending  
*Claire*-your neighbour sounds vile!! Thought staffies had to be on a lead too-and muzzled?? Perhaps your neighbour needs the muzzle-not the dog! 
*Racehl*-sending   back to you hun xxx
*Rowan*-the internet is a godsend but sometimes it's too easy to access things you don't really want to see. Sending   

Thanks so much for the welcome and the understanding xxxxxxx Going to try and force the new clothes into my already bulging wardrobe before hubby gets home!


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## Nordickat

Hehehe. Had to laugh at the owner needing the muzzle lol .......... and then again at hiding the fruits of your retail therapy


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## NickyRich

Am an expert at hiding things-clothes, shoes, scrapbooking stash etc!!  He always seems to find me out though!!


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## Nordickat

Books are my weakness and they got hard to hide. Then i discovered the kindle ;-)


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## doddyclaire

Ahh you cant beat a kindle - hides a multitude of sins 
OH would never guess what i'm reading but he knows i'm pleased to see him when he comes to bed 

So pleased to get home from work and find both cats happily unharmed, wish I could stick a muzzle on the neighbour!!  Or worse!!

Nickyrich - I take it you have Welsh influences with cwtches?!  I too LOL'd at your stashing comments!!

Kat - cna't wait to see your pics missy 

Big  big   to everyone else, have sucumbed to the vino this evening, so wont be about later xxx


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## NickyRich

*Doddyclaire*-I live in the valleys in South Wales (nothing at all like the MTV programme-The Valleys! )

Bad day for me today-8 years ago my beloved sister died. On top of that, I had to ring the clinic and give them the news that this 3rd cycle has failed again-blubbed like a fool on the phone to the nurse. She was lovely though and has out me in touch with the counsellor and I have an appointment on Monday with her. Have also indulged in retail therapy again today-hope I cheer up soon or I will be bankrupt!!!!! Hope you are all having a good day xx


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## Nordickat

(((hugs))) i can't imagine how tough today has been nicky. I can imagine it would have been easier if you could have grieved the loss of your sisters life whilst celebrating the start of a new life. I'm so sorry for the loss of your sister and for the loss of your hopes and dreams. I hope tomorrow brings you some peace. Thinking of you and hoping you are cwtched (my DH is welsh so we cwtch not cuddle too)up on the sofa with your DH tonight. Squeeze all the sadness out of each other.

Hi everyone else xxx Poop day for me too so nothing more to say today.

Katxxx


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## rachel petch

Nickyrich...... So sorry, what a day eh?!!   I'm sending you lots of   
Nordicat........ Sorry your having a ****ty day too, aww, it' s **** sometimes, is nt it?!!!!   for u too hunny!!! Xxxxxxx

I too are having a ****ty day!! I have nt got a lot on at work so I'm tending to dwell on what coud have been, I can't seem to shift this bloody black cloud! I could bloody scream!. I know it s not the answer but I'm going to have a glass or two of red wine this evening as I'm not working tomorrow!!! Tomorrow will probably be ****e too as I ll probably have a small hangover!!!!   

Love to all anyway xxxxx


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## NickyRich

Huge hugs Rachel and Kat. Isn't it crap!!! Out for a meal with my mum and dad, hubby and nephew-he was 2 when his mummy died and we keep her alive in his memory by sharing stories of her. Hope the sun comes out tomorrow for us a  ll!!


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## Nordickat

Nicky i hope you have a really beautiful evening.

Rachel i too hope the sun comes out for you in the morning to burn off that black cloud. And actually, Claire and i will vouch for wine being able to solve many a crisis ......... or at least dull the pain for a while ;-)

I'm tough as old boots so don't fret about my poop day.


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## rachel petch

on the vino tinto as we speak xxxxxx hugs to you all xxxxx


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## doddyclaire

Nickyrich -   I too cannot imagie how tuff your day has been, but I do love that you are keeping her close to your nephew via memories, all too easy to forget the little things but sounds like you've got it covered  

Rachel -   for you too, yep vino can, if nothing else, blurr the edges 

Kat - what can I say.....***** ***** to another pants day!

Righto - so one of the cats HAS been injured, dont think its the dog but could well be the owner, she has a gash on her hip about an inch long, looks very clean cut, but vets are happy to wait until the morning to see her, she's currently bein pampered on the sofa, had her tea bought to her and treats - spolit madam.  Hopefully tomorrow she will be ok


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## NickyRich

Hi, how are you all? Have made myself be busy today to ward off the black cloud times and I feel like I have achieved a bit today-housework wise! I'll have a cleaner house than Kim and Aggie at this rate! Waiting to hear how my mum and dad's westie pup is-she had her first injection today and as part of the pup package at the vet, they are given 'Spot on' flea treatment and she has had a reaction to it and had to go back to the vets and he kept her in! Really hope she is ok!  What a truly crap week this has turned out to be!!   Have been 'tormenting' myself by checking how many BFPs on my old cycle buddies thread-need to stop doing that or I will make myself ill!!!!!!

Have been in my craft room for a few hours tidying today. Time to get cracking on making my xmas cards I think!!!

*doddyclaire*how is your puddytat today? I really hope it wasn't caused by your scumbag neighbour!! 
*Rachel*-hope you didn't have a hangover today!!!! 
*Kat*-hope your day was better today hun xxxxxxx 

Hope everyone else is having a better day today, sending loads of


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## Libran

Hi All
Claire - OMG your poor, poor cat.  If your neighbour has done that, that's truly disgusting.  Can the vet tell you from looking at the wound what he thinks caused it ie if it is a clean wound, then chances are that it has been caused by a human with an implement, but if it is not a clean wound and there are teeth marks or something, then maybe it was another animal (possibly neighbours' dog ?).  Maybe you should call the police or RSPCA, but, then, would that make the situation worse ?
Nicky - well done on getting through such a difficult time.  You can come and clean my house next if you run out of cleaning to do    How is your mums westie puppie ?
Kat - hope you've had a better day.  Would love to hear your top tips on mindfulness, definitely, please share away.  Also can't wait to see the pics of the mountains.  Re your pooch, I just wanted to let you know that we met a three legged grey hound out walking today, and, honestly, I didn't notice that she had 3 legs - she was running around like a wild thing and full of beans.
Rowan - you've gone quiet, hope you're OK.
 to Rachel and Susan too
AFM, had a very busy day at work (we had an inspection by the Care Quality Commission) and now exhausted and headed for the PJ's and a huge chicken curry    Certainly, being  busy is good therapy - if you don't have time to go to the loo, you certainly don't have time to mope and dwell 
XXX


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## Rowan22

Hi all,

Claire, I really hope it wasn't your neighbour who hurt your cat. I can't describe what I'd say to anybody who tried to hurt our cats. I agree with Libran, do you want to take it further or do you think that would just make things worse? I hope the poor animal is getting better.
Nicky, there's certainly something to be said for keeping busy, even if it is housework! Hope the little westie is getting better. That sort of allergic reaction to flea preparations is quite rare, I think but I do know that our two previous cats hated having it stuck on their necks and would scratch for hours after we'd done it.
Hope your day's been better, Kat and yes, I'd be interested in the mindfulness tips, too. It is something I try to bear in mind but usually forget all about it at crucial moments! It's very Buddhist, in origin. I think there's a lot of sense in these approaches.
Libran, it sounds hectic! I hope you all passed with flying colours! Enjoy your evening and the curry!
Rachel, hope you had a better day. Wine is always a good option, I find.
As for me, I was doing OK until I happened to turn on to some programme about the housing market and heard some guy, the apparently healthy, in work, father of two, go on about how he felt he was entitled to a bigger house and felt 'let down' because he couldn't get one. I thought 'we are not even entitled to a healthy body, much less anything else!' At least, I don't think there's a celestial contract promising us all good health, etc, etc (or babies, sadly!), much less nice big houses that we can own! _We_ don't own, we rent and it will always be that way. If I hadn't spent so many years being ill, it would have been a different story... Grr! Some people don't know they're born!
Rant over! It never fails to amaze me, though, this idea people have that they're 'entitled' to x and y. 
Better go back to the mindfulness, I guess!
Have a good day tomorrow.

Rxxx


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## Nordickat

Libran - I hope you have had a chance to empty your bladder now? We thought about the 3 legged pooch option then decided a wheel attachment for sommer and a ski for vinter might be an opsjon ;-)
Nicky - I'm glad you found some distraction today but step away from that thread. We all do it to torture ourselves as if we actually need more pain. Take a short break from the BFPs for a bit. Your buddies will welcome you back once some of your pain has eased and will of course understand your need for some time out. How is wee westie now?
Claire - I hope it was an accident that injured your cat. Poor we mite. What did the vet say?
Roman - I'm getting less and less tolerant of greedy self absorbed people so you rant away, and then take some deep breaths and remind yourself that he isn't worth a second of your thinking time.

Mindfulness stuff next week. I'm bouncing off the walls again so can't focus very well. I blame ikea! I stupidly thought I could go and sit in the returns bit as long as I had my book. How wrong was I! I was a bit ropey before we went but by the time DH had finished shopping and came to sit with me, I was a jibbering wreck and about to whack someone over the head with my returns lol. I challenge even the most sane people to hold it together in that place! Better now but meds make my brain sqiffy lol. Doubtful we will get autumn colours this weekend ......... snow forecast!

I hope something makes each of you smile this evening. On Monday we'll have a list of some of the things that made us feel good over the weekend. Even tiny things count like the taste of that lovely first cuppa in the morning, feeling the sun on your face, smelling the fresh bread when you pop to the shop, or feeling the softness of a new scarf or jumper, how about seeing a fab sunset or sunrise or seeing your DH smile at you. Fokus on real things and not imagined things. There you go, touch of mindfulness there.

Love katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Evening 

Nickyrich - always something quite satisfying about getting the house clean, even if it only lasts 5 mins   Hope the westie is doing ok 

Libran - Hope the curry & pj's are helping you get over the day, think I would hate any kind of inspections going on around me!

Rowan - Aww, unfortunately there's always gonna be folks around like that, seems we've developed a couple of generations of the should have's here now, how the hell that ever came around i'll never know  

Kat -   Hope you're feeling a tad more "you" tomorrow, for tonite let the meds do their stuff.  I'm still to do an Ikea yet, one day....

So - my smile factor this evening is the first red wine of the season, I find red totally a winter wine, and prefer white or pink in summer, but now's the season for red, a surprisingly cheap but incredibly pleasant one!!  Also, bagged my first chestnuts today so later on I shall be chomping on one of my fave winter treats!!
As for the cat - all good news, vet seems to think she had caught her fur jumping maybe from a fence and it ripped her skin, says she's seen it countless times so she's not worried about malicious behaviour.  And no stitches required, so double YAY!!


----------



## NickyRich

hi all-very quick post before I go and have a soak in the bath! Izzy the westie is back to normal!! She arrived home at 5.30-ate a big plate of food and played for 3 hours solid!! She is so comical! 
*doddyclaire*so glad your cat is ok!!!! 
Here are two Izzy pics to make you smile!!!







][/img]







][/img]


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## Libran

Nickyrich - HOW CUTE IS IZZY ?!!!  Just adorable.  Thanks for posting that and making me smile.
Well done on getting through an incredibly tough week, you're doing just great.  A crafts room, eh ?!  Sounds fab.  Wish I had one.  What crafts do you do (as well as the card making ?).
Claire - so relieved to hear that your cat is OK.  Love your "smile moment" and the fact that your wine consumption has such a strong, seasonal influence.  We live quite close to a vineyard, and they are currently advertising for help with the grape harvest.  I could do with some extra cash (plus a few free bottles of wine) so maybe I should give it some thought !  Ha ha !
Kat - sorry to hear about your wobble in IKEA.  Doesn't take much to trigger these things, does it ?!  Are you off to the cabin again this weekend, or are you preparing to be snowed it.  Looking forward to sharing your mindfulness tips, when you feel ready.
Rowan - I really don't blame you for getting so angry with such idiot people.  I would too.  When will they realise that nobody is "entitled" to either happiness or health and that bad things will still happen to good people, that's just life !  Quote for today "Happiness must not be pursued; it should ensue".  
Not having the best of days.  Have eaten far too many chocolate biscuits.  Going to sit down and make a list of all the things I want to sort out in my life.
My happiness moment for today - taking dog for a long walk this morning, being out in the sunshine, the fresh air and feeling the breeze on my face, and spontaneously deciding to turn the walk into a blackberry picking expedition.  As this is supposed to be a happiness moment, we'll ignore the fact that my hands got shredded to bits by the brambles................And tonights happiness moment is going to be cooking (AND EATING) a huge blackberry and apple crumble with a mountain of creamy custard.
Have a great weekend and   to everyone X


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## NickyRich

Am so glad Izzy made you smile! My mum bought her a pink jumper to wear for her first visit to the caravan!! She isn't too keen on it! Bet Poppy (their 13 yr old Westie) was really pleased she didn't have one too!!!

Another really busy day for me! Have cleaned kitchen cupboards, scrubbed the over, cleaned all the cupboard doors and scrubbed the floor on my hands and knees! Also blitzed the lounge! Begone dust!!

*Libran*-I make cards, do scrapbooking and I am learning to sew-with the help of my mum!! I really find that crafting keeps my mind busy and as my craft room is in the loft, it is a long way from the kitchen and it stops me snacking too much too!!! 

Today I am feeling really grateful for having good friends! Not told many people in work what has been happening but the ones that know have been texting me every day to see how I am and I am really looking forward to going back to work after halfterm. Am feeling annoyed at my MIL at the moment though! Her response to Lee telling her that I had started bleeding etc was 'sorry to hear that'! God, that is something I would say about a neighbour I didn't know well! I have been married to her son for over 13 years-you would think it would have had more of an affect on her!! She is weird!!!!  I think she thinks it is 'my problem' and one of her questions about IVF is 'could the baby have something wrong with it?' Even if I was daft enough to think that, I would never ask the people going through it!! Ggrrrrr!!!! How are your MILs about it? Think mine may be a 'rare breed!!' Hahaha!!!

Hope everyone is having a better day today, I think we are all so brave!!!! Group   !


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## doddyclaire

Love the pics Nickyrich - how cuuuute!!!  Love to see a pic of her in a pink jumper - LOL!!
LOL at your MiL - mine always said - oh well, never mind, and moved onto the next topic she wanted to talk about  

Libran - Oooh I'd definitely offer to help out at a vineyard, how fab would that be!! - I also loved your happiness moments, hope the crumble was lush 

Tonight's?  Well it was homemade spicy butternut squash soup with homemade bread!  All washed down with a cheeky red of course 

Hope you girls had a good weekend xx


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## Nordickat

Knitting is my scrapbooking equivelant. Sadly i can only do straight stuff ........ I do have an extensive scarf collection though lol

Wee Westie is gorgeous nicky. You know all the other pups will tease her about the jumper though and Big Westie will be the ring leader! Good for you on the cleaning. When you are finished at Librans, i have saved some dust round mine for you. I'm glad you have such lovely friends to look out for you.

Libran - we need to set some ground rules. Don't ever mention cheddar cheese or cadburys to an expat! And even worse that that, custard mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Now you have me all homesick lol.

Claire - so pleased kitkat is ok and that it was just an accident. Horrid as he is, i think its unlikely your neighbour would be so cruel. Swearing and threatening your DH is one thing but actually hurting your cat would put him in a whole new league.

No Mountains for me :-(( I have a massive deadline on wednesday and due to only being able to work a few hours a day, i've got too much to write still. It sucks!

My happy moment today was having a beer after work and and a kid pooping its pants so my colleague had to do what he could to clean said kid up. Happy moment was clearly not that bit lol. My happy moment was actually genuinely thinking 'glad i don't have kids. Best get myself another beer then' ;-)

Love to all,
Katxxx


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## NickyRich

][/img]]

Here she is!! She doesn't look too happy though!!!!


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## Rowan22

Aaaah, she is adorable! All these photos are gorgeous! Aren't they small at that age?
Hope you're all having a good weekend. I'm working tomorrow morning but there you go, it's part of the job. 
Not having a good few days, partly due to the period from hell (it always makes things worse and brings the tears). I did enjoy cutting the hedge at a local community garden, though. The sun was out, the company was good - and fun - and my hedge actually looked reasonably neat when I'd finished hacking at it! Success!   

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

No way! That's the cutest thing i've ever seen nicky. Its a good job you are so far away because she is danger og being kidnapped. I'm in love 

Big hugs rowan xxx

My lovely FF buddy sent me socks and cadburys because she is a gem. But they were stolen on route and all i got today was some papers :-( Outside the EU you have to declare the contents on a customs sticker so it says on the outside what it is and we reckon somebody in the uk sorting office nicked them (Norwegians are too rich for petty theft). Why are people so horrid :-((


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## NickyRich

She is super cute!!! Poppy had better not make fun of her-I have a few embarrassing photos of Poppy!! 
Here she is, dressed as a daffodil!







][/img]

How peed off does she look?

This is Max, he was my sister's dog. My BIL gave him away to my mum and dad-think he would have done the same with my nephew given half a chance! Max loved to dress up! We lost him in May 








][/img]

Hubby and I would love a dog but as we both work full time, it wouldn't be fair xxx

*Nordickat*-how horrible some people are!!!  
*Rowan*-sending hugs xxx us women suffer don't we!! You are good cutting the hedge! I would have done a useless job!!!
*doddyclaire*-food sounds yum!!!! I don't drink at all so my cheeky red is a glass of blackcurrant squash! I got completely drunk on two glasses of lambrini once, fell up my stairs and had a carpet burn on my forehead!! You try explaining that in a school!!! 
*Libran*-bet the crumble was delicious! Am planning on baking cupcakes this weekend xxxx

Am in my craft room, with the raining lashing down on the skylights! Think I will make some xmas cards and watch an xmas film!
Thank you all so much for your support during this awful week-you have helped so much xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## doddyclaire

Nicky - Oh those pics are just too cute!!  Max looked adorable, well they all do!!  Your family obv have a thing for westies!!
Must confess I proper LOL'd at your lambrini moment!! Even more so at the carpet burn - I can just imagine some of the comments    I like the sound of your craft room, I just don't have the patience or dedication although I have decided to try and make my own brooch bouquet for wedding, which is in progress!!


Kat - I also LOL'd at your happy moment and the poop!!!  I would be thinking exactly the same, glad I didn't have to clear that up   Enjoy your beer, I hope your work doesn't take over your whole weekend.  And what a pants thing to have happen with your parcel, wtf would anyone nick socks & chocolate, what absolute barstewards    I'll happily try sending some if ya like 


Rowan - Trimming your bush in public   Oh Lordy!!! Hope your nasty period pains ease quickety quick so you can enjoy the weekend

Rachel - Hope you're doing ok hun


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## Nordickat

Thats just too cute nicky, and very very funny. Although surely Max should been a leek?!


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## NickyRich

Hello girls, how are you all doing today? I am spending time in my craft room, making xmas cards! Have had an ok day so far-had lots of parcels arrive today which was fab!!  Lots of nice new clothes and craft stash! Went to the hairdressers-she has advised me to put a conditioning treatment on my hair due to the fact it is as dry as straw-prob due to all the hormone injections. Have booked a colour on Wednesday to cheer me up and brighten me up! Am planning on having a clear out and putting some things on ebay this weekend!! Also planning to restart my exercise classes next week-it has been good to be able to run up the stairs again!! Hope you are all doing ok! Anyone doing anything exciting this weekend?

*Kat*-unfortunately-no leek headgear could be found!!   much to Max's relief I'm sure!!!!

Sending loads of


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## Nordickat

Nicky - DH used to wear a leek to school on st davids day. He had it pinned to his sweater. I'm completely baffled by it though since leeks are massive. Well they are if you are 5 years old and its pinned to your jumper anyway?!?! 

Its been a wild weekend in katland. I worked in the office and DH worked in the garden. It rained all day today and reached the dizzy heights of 2 degrees! Seriously grim :-( Having a hot chocolate now and hoping we don't get our first snow tonight ...... I'm not ready for winter yet!

Hope you all had slightly more exciting weekends than me.
Katxxx


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## Libran

Hi Girls
Hope you all had a good weekend.
Nicky - well done on staying sane this week, and glad to hear that loads of exciting parcels (clothes and crafts related) have been arriving.  Also good to hear that you are looking after yourself, booking the hair colour etc.  What colour are you going to go ?  I wish I could sew.  I do tapestry, but that's about it.
Kat - I lived in Germany for a short while, so I remember the life of an ex-pat very well.  I was forever requesting parcels of PG tips, cadburys chocolate and cheddar cheese.  What a   someone nicked your stuff.  Sounds like you're not particularly looking forward to the Winter.  Any excuse for a hot choc, though !  Hope you met your deadline and got your work done.
Claire and Rowan - hope you both had great weekends.
Not in the best of places today.  Just heard that my parents are planning to go away to Tenerife for christmas (long story - don't ask) and mother in law will also be away in America visiting new baby great nephew.  That means that DH and I will be all alone, just the two of us.  We can't afford to go away, so looks like it will be just another day trying to ignore all the happy family festivities going on around us.  Oh, why does this have to be so HARD ?!!!


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## doddyclaire

Errr....Kat - did you delete a post??  Am sure I read a massive one from you last night although I was 3/4 of the way through a bottle of wine!!

Libran - We are debating whether to have an "alone" xmas this year, which I like - just the two of us, wrapped up in pyjamas drinking champagne and eating when we feel like it, oh and having full control on what we watch - heaven!!

Hope you're all ok, am feeling a bit fretful today, loss of confidence and pah just general patheticness really!

x


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## Nordickat

Yep deleted it. I realised it was too raw to talk about still especially as I'm going it alone this week and my mental health team are all AWOL until next week ....... yikes.

Big hugs Claire for a sh1tty day xxx
Big hugs to you too Libran. Claire is right though, christmas as a family of 2 is fab. For me it's a time for selfishness and overindulgence. Not a time for family squabbles and over tired spoilt kids. Claire and I will help you plan a top Christmas I promise xxx

Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Hey 

Ahh ok, well lady, just remember that we're here, so if/when ya need, have a hoot at us eh 

Oooh I love planning the selfish xmas day routines!!


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## NickyRich

Hi girls, how are you all? Feel emotional and drained today after my counselling session. Cried as soon as I saw the nurses-(I made them cupcakes and a card to say thanks) and then cried throughout the session. It felt good to talk but makes you think, I talked about the 3 failed attempts and losing my sister. Counsellor was lovely-a doctor sat in too for some reason! Went through so many tissues!!!!! Found Downton Abbey really upsetting last night too!!! Nurse thinks I should have blood tests to see if I am anaemic-am still bleeding really heavily-over a week now! Feeling fed up of it all now 
*Kat*-sending hugs hun, am here if you want to chat at all xxxxxx
*doddyclaire*-your xmas plans sound perfect!! Libran-we used to run around everywhere on Xmas day going to see all the family etc. We don't do that anymore. *Libran*-have a fab day, watching favourite films, eating fave food etc xxxxxxx
Am in my craft room, giggling at Christmas With the Kranks-a real feel good film! Sending huge hugs to everyone-we bloody well deserve them!!!


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## Rowan22

Hi Everybody,

Hope you all had reasonable weekends. Kat, always here if you need to chat, your words have always helped me so don't hesitate. It's cold here today and my fingers are freezing as I type this! Autumn's getting colder, I think! Libran, I quite agree about Xmas and so far, I'm trying not to think about it. I can't believe that the ads are starting already but they are. Cards are in the shops, too. I try telling myself it's just one day (or three, maximum and then New Year) but the build up lasts for months and this is what's so hard! 
Nicky, sorry to hear you are still bleeding. Have you been given any idea about when it should stop? You have had a rotten year, by the sound of it.   You probably need to let out some of those feelings, though I know it's hard, I always find it hard to release emotions at all. The problem is that if you don't let them go, they stick around and then you can get ill, in the end. I do think that unhealed grief from a major bereavement was one reason why I got so ill. But the process of crying and ranting and the rest of it isn't nice at all! My mother likes Downton Abbey. I hope it wasn't that bad, as she gets down too, quite a lot and it's one of her weekly pleasures.
As for me, I was OK over the weekend until I watched 'Supernanny'. Why I watch these programmes I'll never know. This particular family had four kids and of course, the thoughts run through my mind about how unfair this is and why should she have four when I don't have one? Not rational, of course but impossible to shut up at 1 o' clock in the morning. 
Quote I saw on someone's blog which I thought was appropriate: 'Don't wait until you have no more suffering before allowing yourself to be happy,' from Thich Nhat Hanh. I suppose the point is to try to find the good things that we do have, though as someone with Buddhist leanings, I suspect happiness is an inside job. 
I am going to try and do some patchwork in a moment, Nicky. I'm making a quilt as a winter project, somethinig to do in the evenings when I'm sick of watching rubbish on the box! What crafts do you do?

Rowanxx


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## NickyRich

Rowan-I make cards, scrapbook, cross stitch, make cakes and cupcakes and am learning to sew.  I have just bought a patchwork book-I would love to make a colourful quilt!!  My mum has been teaching me to sew-it's been lovely doing projects together.  Downton Abbey was really sad last night-hope your mum wasn't too upset by it!  It was really good to talk and cry together-I have always been an advocate for having a good cry-better out than in!!!!!  Supernanny sometimes has the opposite effect on me and I sometimes thank my lucky stars that I haven't got children like that!    I think this experience can 'do away' with rational thought!  I often think-'what did I do to deserve all this'!!  My friend in work is due to give birth soon and she text last night to see how I was-she thinks I am not in school due to my recurring voice problems.  I told yet more fibs and she said she will pop in with the new baby after halfterm and my stomach dropped!  I am already dreading it!!  I try and avoid babies, people's scan pics and talking about pregnancy.  Then I feel spiteful for feeling like this but I need to protect myself.  The counsellor told me today that that is perfectly normal and I should do this things to protect myself at the moment as things are still very raw.  I wonder if it will ever become less raw!!!  I am so thankful for being able to talk to you all on here and know that you understand the journey I am on.
Re: the bleeding-the said it could last a few weeks-I am drained by it and still having quite a bit of pain.  Can't wait for it to stop now, it's like a reminder each time  

Love and hugs to you all xxxxxxx


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## Libran

Kat - sorry that you're feeling raw and unsupported this week.  We will do everything that we can to help you through, you know that   
Thanks so much for saying you will help me plan a fab "just us two" christmas.  I really appreciate it, and I'm looking forward to hearing any suggestions from you and Claire.  I like winter too.  Nights are slowly drawing in now, and when clocks go back in two weeks, I'll just feel like hibernating in front of the TV in PJ's.  Such an exciting life I lead.  
Nicky - you are being so, so brave.  I'm not sure that to suggest about the bleeding, other than take it easy and heed the docs advice.  I wouldn't want to advocate cutting off contact with friends, and, ultimately, you have to decide what you reveal and to whom and when.  However, for me I think it would be a little bit too early to be coping with seeing your friends baby.  Is there any way that you can tactfully defer your friends visit, if only for a couple of weeks, to give yourself some breathing space.  You need to be kind to yourself at this time.  Being strong can wait for a few weeks.  I love that you are throwing yourself into your crafts and it sounds like you have a great relationship with your mum.  I wish that I could sew !  Maybe you could sew Claire's wedding dress ?!
Rowan, I try and censor my viewing and don't watch Supernanny any more.  I'd like to get to the stage where I could watch it dispassionately and with indifference, but it tends to wind me up too.  
Claire - how are you doing ?  Immersed in work and wedding prep ?  Love the idea of a pink champagne filled christmas morning.  I think I'm upset about christmas cos I think parents have decided to go away, cos they don't want to spend christmas in a child free zone.  
Hope tomorrow is a better day XX


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## Nordickat

I had forgotten about the ott christmas advert hell you are all exposed too. We only have internet tv so are spares all that. Although Christmas is much less in your face here anyway. I do find email Christmas news easier to deal with than good old fashioned cards, at least you can just pretend to have opened the attached photos ;-) 

You sound wonderfully busy nicky  I suggest you feel an awful cold coming on that you wouldn't want to expose a newborn to. Say all your DHs work colleagues have full blown flu and hopefully that will give you a little breathing space. Don't do anything that hurts more than you can handle. Glad conselling was good. The Dr was probably just there in case they decided you had clinical depression and needed meds. Good to have a good cry though hey xxx

Rowan you must stop torturing yourself. Pick up that quilt project when something comes on tv that will cause heartache. You deserve better so treat yourself with kindness xxx Our autumn is v chilly. We bought a new duvet and i've just lit our first fire ........ the burning dust is kind of ruining the cosy atmosphere!

Claire you ok today? The one thing you will never be described as is pathetic so i hope that feeling has passed now. Loss of confidence goes with the IF diagnosis i think but i hope it was short loved. In my humble opinion you are fab xxx

Libran i know its hard to deal with disappointed (or perceived as such anyway) family. I can sympathise with your fear that your folks want kids around them. Sadly my sister has none either so my poor Mum has photos of her friends grandchildren on her fridge. It so sad to feel like that isn't it. Like i said though its about selfishness and indulgence. Start thinking about a lucious menu instead of worrying how you folks might or might not be feeling. Maybe they really just fancy some sun?

Thanks for all of your kind words. My currently turmoil is not really IF related though. Although actually, the government are considering giving all parents of Small children a reduced working week. So not only will my taxes be paying for others to have children, but as a childless person no doubt i'll be expected to pick up the slack for all these long suffering parents. So they'll get paid to stay home 5 hours a week for 5 years and i'll get to do an extra 5 hours work for free. That news hasn't helped. 

DH dropped the bombshell tonight that he nearly drove to the AirPort instead of home to fly anywhere to escape his seemingly loveless marriage :-( He has had a much harder year than me. Being in the loonybin is awful but i realise it is much harder to watch it. He is just banging around waiting for me to get better and its not happening. I can't blame him for wanting to leave. I would if i was him. I'm So far from well though and its 9 months since i was first admitted and i can still only manage 50% work if i'm lucky. What if I'm never better? How long should the poor guy have to wait before he finds a better life. That was clearly rhetorical and i don't want any of you to say anything. I think i just needed to 'say it out loud' if typing counts as that. I'm taking tomorrow off to do nothing but be me and that might help.

So thats me, childless, depressed and almost single. Not a bad start to the week hey?!

Love katxxx


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## Rowan22

Oh Kat, you sound in a really bad place right now! I am sorry.   
I have to say I think the idea that you should work more hours so that parents can work less is iniquitious and incredibly unfair. How on earth can any government justify that one?! God knows the government we've got has come up with some stuff that I wouldn't consider at all fair or sensible but that idea just takes the biscuit! I hope common sense and basic fairness prevail. Not everyone chose not to have kids and I think we've all suffered enough without a little more being inflicted on us. I am also sick to death of hearing about how hard having kids is and how it causes problems with this and that and how we must all pull together and help families. I pay my taxes which educate other people's kids. That's enough. There are some people who should never have become parents at all, I wouldn't trust them to look after a goldfish. 
I hope it helped a bit to write something down. You must have both been going through hell for so long, so many years of heartache and stress. I think infertility does tend to eat away at even the best relationships, unfortunately. I have health issues too, something else for my poor dh to worry about and he has stress related issues. Sometimes all this sh*t seems never ending. We're still together, which amazes me sometimes, as fate's flung everything at our marriage, including unemployment and real financial strains. You've had a harder path, though. As for illness, it sucks!
Libran, yes, absolutely and I have to try to stop watching programmes like that!
Nicky, I would avoid the baby like the plague, I'm afraid. You're not spiteful at all, you need to protect yourself, your counsellor is absolutely right. I can actually take babies, it's toddlers I find so hard, especially when the parents lose patience with them, when I think 'you don't know how lucky you are!'. Kat's right, invent an illness, something really contagious but short lived. You don't have to see this baby, not now or at all. Really, you don't. Wait until you feel ready and if it takes a long time, that's not a problem. I'm sure your friend would understand. Have the doctors given you anything for the bleeding and the pain? You have enough emotional stuff and heartache without having to deal with physical pain on top. I agree with Libran, I think you're doing amazingly well!   
Hi Claire, how are the wedding preps going?
Hi to anyone I've missed. We've got a really supportive thread going here. Take care, everyone.

Rowanxx


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## doddyclaire

Morning ladies

I'll apologise now in advance of my post, its not gonna be everyone's cup of tea and please don't feel obliged to read but.....

Kat - Alot of what you said Sunday night did ring true with me, especially the whole "bringing yourself back to the here & now" type bits.  More on that later but you dont have to read!  Back to you, and your DH, honey, well I am seeing a slight positive in that he is able to say that to you - ok so you'd rather hear something nicer i bet but your recovery is really to be measured in small steps - look at you now, able to achieve 50% of your working time - and thats 50% better than a few months back i'll bet.  Looking from the outside in, I think you've both already been through the worst, so this next stage should be easier (? not sure thats the correct term) its just not pre-quantifyable in terms of how long each recovery stage will take.  Your battle is half fought & half won, and thats been with him by your side, so for him to reap the rewards when the time comes, he needs to stick around.
So - what is on your agenda today with your bonus day off??  Something that is comforting to you I hope. And something that will give you a happy thought to share with us later?!
I'm not even going to comment on your governments' ideas re childcare time off, that is just too **** ridiculous.

NickyRich - Oh I am so with you on protecting yourself - I would claim a nasty virus that affects the younger, weaker population if necessary!!  I'm sure you'll come up with something suitable though.  If only I was as brave Saturday night, was at a party and my old flatmate was there with her new baby, I actually couldn't talk to her - and I know people will see that as completely rude but I cant be bothered to explain to people who have no chance or interest in understanding.

Libran - I feel for your mum too, they do tend to pin all their hopes up high & visible dont they.  And trust me, there's nnothing wrong with hibernation & pj's, its why we have winters i'm sure!!

Rowan - You're so right, we have a good supportive thread here.  Hope you're ok hun x

And big   all round.

So here's the bit you can skip if you want - I dont want to upset anyone I promise xx


Over the years I have seen a couple of "mental health" proffessionals, one of which I binned after the first session and the other couldn't see that my drinking was caused by my depression and not the other way round  
Since then I decided that there was only one person competent enough to drag me out of my personal hell, and that was me, so I persuaded myself the better way of getting through hurt & frustration was not to hurt myself but to scream or run instead.  Its not easy and believe me, there  are still some days when picking up a knife seems an easier option, but its a good sign that I now consider myself competent enough to have knives in the house for their intended function!
So I know now that all I need is time and maybe I will come up with a way of handling what I feel right now, I know that this is all "normal" in terms of getting to grips with what has happened, or not happened more aptly.
For some reason I feel safe saying all this to you girls, its almost like we are each other's therapy sesion in some way 
I'm still in touch with my old thread girls quite often, but am finding it harder and harder to connect with them, and I know none of it is their doing, its me changing but I really feel I have nothing to offer them

Pah - boring ramblings of someone waiting for a meeting that she doesn't want to go to, hope you all have an ok day 

xx


----------



## Hellen

Hi all

I have stumbed across this chat thread and wondered if I could join you.

I'm Helen, 37 years old and have been TTC for 15 years.  I re-married a couple of years ago and we were looking at another IVF attempt however after being diagnosed with a premature menopause donor eggs or adoption were our only options if we wished to continue down that road.  We have decided that adoption is not for us and also not to go ahead with donor egg IVF so finally after 15 years I am trying to come to terms with closing that chapter and moving on. 

I am looking at having some counselling and possibly thinking about a change of job as I hate what I do but have stuck at it while the main focus was getting pregnant, but mainly just trying to get through one day at a time   

H
xxx


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## Libran

Morning All
Kat - I totally agree with Claire.  You HAVE made such huge progress, and you should not belittle that.  Marriage vows (in sickness and in health and all that) are to be taken seriously, and I wonder if your DH would have the same reaction if you had a physical illness that was manifest eg a broken leg.  I do totally get that it is hard for him (and, indeed, in many ways much harder to be an outsider watching from the sidelines and seeing you suffer).  I suspect he may be waiting for a date that he can tick off on the calendar as the date that you recovered.  Unfortunately, IF doesn't work like that.  There will always be moments of sadness, it is just a case of learning to manage those moments, minimize them and focus on the other good things that you DO have in your life.  I really hope you manage to work things through (as my DH often says when we argue "we only have each other, why are we fighting like this ?").  Maybe your DH needs to talk to someone alone about how your illness has affected him ?
Claire - I totally understand why you couldn't speak to your ex-flatmate.  And then, of course, you have all the guilt at feeling such a horrible person because you can't bring yourself to talk to previously good mates.  I so admire the way that you have taken control and responsibility.  I don't use alcohol or knives, but my eating isn't great - I measure how good or bad my day has been on the Kit Kat or Jaffa Cake Scale ....!!!  It's a very similar principle, just executed in a slightly different way.  I think you should heed your own advice to Kat - just look at how far you have come.  You are doing great.  My mum does have three grandchildren (sisters kids) and they are the apple of her eye.  Mum started off thinking that it would be hard for me whilst the children were young, but that I would "get over it" once they were slightly older, and come round.  We can now barely have a conversation, as her life totally revolves around them.
Rowan - it sounds like you have an incredibly strong and loving marriage.  Never underestimate that or take it for granted.  You've had such a tough time with illness etc, but I get the sense that you are a true survivor (cue Rocky theme tune !!!).
Nicky, hope you are OK and busy busy busy in that craft room.
Have decided to ban myself from ********.  Came home last night to see pics of pregnant relative on ******** and ended up squabbling with DH over something so stupid, cos I was in a bad mood and didn't want to tell him (for the millionth time) what had upset me, so he didn't understand what was bugging me.
Welcome Hellen.  I too have decided that adoption isn't for me, although I do have the greatest of respect for those that choose that path.
Hope you're well and good luck with the counselling.  You should definitely look at changing your job.
Have a good day everyone and   to all XXX


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## NickyRich

Hi girls, think we are all in need of group    What a horrible journey we are all on! 
*Hellen and Libran*-hubby and I have decided that adoption isn't for us either, or fostering. I really admire people who do it but it wasn't an option for us. xxxxx

*Hellen*-I went for a counselling session on Monday and it has helped me this week. I cried throughout but felt better the next day after it. It doesn't give you magical answers, but it helps you begin to acknowledge what is happening. She described this process as a bereavement-a loss of a dream. Instead of expecting myself to bounce back, I am treating it like a grieving process. I didn't bounce back after losing my sister but I am able to think of Lisa without crying most days and I can think of all the happy times. Someone asked me once if I was over it! My response was, I will never get over it but I am learning to live with the loss. This IF process is the same I think.  
*Kat*-you are doing amazingly well and have been an inspiration to all of us on here! I think men find it really hard to deal with emotional problems-they like to see 'a finish line' I think! Lee has been fab but I think somedays he is confused by my emotions! When my sister died, he found it heartbreaking to see me in such a mess for such a long time and he wanted it to be 'over' as he felt completely helpless. Looking back, I must have been really hard to live with and when I have asked him about it, he said he just felt at a total loss of how to help me. It was exactly how I felt seeing my parents go through losing their daughter-sometimes I wanted to escape the pain and heartbreak I was witnessing. As I say to Lee, if we can cope with all of this, we can cope with anything! Hope you and hubby are ok-give each other a big kiss and cwtch and escape somewhere together!! Reminisce about when you first met-before IF cast such a dreadful shadow over your lives xxxxxx   
*Rowan*-I agree totally with Libran-you sound like a true survivor and another inspiration! xxxxx  
*LIbran*-my cousin is pregnant with her third child and I am yet to congratulate her! I feel so awful about it but my excuse is, she hasn't actullay told me-I had to hear it from my mum as 'family don't know how to tell me'! That makes me so frigging annoyed to be honest!!! I may fall apart in private but I am not going to weep and wail in front of them!! Grrr!!! I don't blame you for banning yourself from ********-you don't need your face rubbed in it! I tend to argue with hubby over silly things when I am feeling low-instead I should say-'I am feeling sh** because of how unfair life is!'   Like you, I tend to use food but I am starting back at Slimming World tonight! I lost 2 stone for hols in August and have put a little bit back on so want to get out of this vicious cycle of comfort eating! I am aiming for a six pack, rather than the multi-pack I have-hahaha!!!    
*Claire*-I can understand how you couldn't speak toy your ex-flatmate. I don't begrudge anyone having children-what I begrudge is not being able to have any myself! Like you, I feel guilty about being spiteful. The counsellor turned it on it's head for me though-she said perhaps people should feel guilty for not thinking about my feelings and my emotions! My friend will be bringing the baby into school-I hate being asked to 'hold' the baby!! Would rather hold a rattlesnake some days! I may send a card to explain why I will be making myself scarce.   

Have been for my colour today-had caramel highlights throughout. As my hair is naturally curly, it goes a bit frizzt when blow dried. I never blow dry it but the hairdresser has and I feel like my head is covered in candy floss!!!! Will be washing it before Slimming class in case frizz weighs heavier!!!   

I have been thinking, as a woman who suffers with IF problems, I define myself by what I CANNOT do-I cannot have children/I won't be a mother/I can't get pregnant etc!!! As a result, I feel inferior and a failure!! I said this to my mum and she said-you will never be a failure-look at everything you CAN do! Look at what you are good at! This got me thinking! I would never say to my best friend she was a failure and I shouldn't say it to myself! I am going to make the effort to treat myself as I would treat a best friend!! So, even though this is really hard-I am going to tell you what I am good at and what I can do!! (I do this in Circle Time in school with the children-they find it easier than adults!
*I am caring, kind, honest and loyal. I am passionate about what I believe in and would fight to the death for people I love! 
*I am a loving daughter, wife, aunty and I was a loving sister!(Not so sure about daughter in law-I have days there!!) 
*I am a good teacher and I genuinely care about children and giving them what they need to achieve their full potential in life!
*I am a team player in work and am always happy to help a colleague (except for one who really annoys me !
*I am good at a variety of crafts and have taught myself to make cards, scrapbooks etc. I enjoy sharing my creations with others and love the feeling that a card I have made has made someone smile!
*I am a compassionate person-I hate to see people unhappy!
*I am strong and resilient-I will pick myself back up after yet another blow! Life is for living!

Wow-I find it so much easier to write about what I can't do!! How about we all give ourselves a pat on the back and share what we are good at-what makes us special! However we may view ourselves, others have a far higher opinion!! (sorry for waffling!!) 
Love and hugs to you all, Nickyxxxxxx


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## Nordickat

Your list is great Nicky. You are also articulate and funny. You can count that as an additional 2 points for your list. I need to be in a better place to write mine but I will I promise xxx I hate the tiptoeing around by of family members. DHs nephew was 6 weeks old before we found out they were even expecting:-0 My mc was the same time as their 12 week scan so i understand, but still .......

Hi Hellen xxx I'm glad you found us. You joined us in a low day though so I hope you have read back and seen its not all sad doom and gloom 

Claire, Rowan and libran - thanks for cheering me on. DH knew what he was getting into but I guess he thought he could fix things. I suffered from depression before we even met (although I was in denial up until a couple of years ago) but there have been long periods where things tick along but I'm not a good talker and I'm super stubborn so let things build up. I have asked for a cast on my leg so I look sick at work. Nobody knows I am half time sick as I'm too ashamed. I do need work though, it's like my alter ego. Outside work I am just kat with baggage, then at the entrance to work I spin round in the phone box and turn into Dr kat and the baggage is left in the phonebox. I can sustain the lie for about 4 hours and then I feel sick from the exhaustion of being 'normal' and have to come home. Now I feel I have to live a different lie at home so DH feels loved. He is loved by the way, I just have no clue how to show it anymore. I drew a love heart in the dust for him today and he suggested I did the dusting instead. I guess I have to up my game a bit ..........

Thanks for sharing Claire xxx

The jaffacake thing is actually a virus called the comfort eating virus. It's a tough one to get rid of, I've been trying to beat it for several kilos now.

Thanks for understanding, Katxxx 

PS. Rowan you are right that it's a very supportive thread. Some threads are great like that and others not. You aree obviously a lovely bunch xxx


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## Rowan22

Hi everyone,

Kat, hope you're feeling just a bit better today. You're right about the comfort eating virus. In my case, it's chocolate and sweets, not good for a diabetic! I think a lot of it is trying to muffle feelings and women seem to do this with food, while men go along to the pub (huge sweeping generalisation there!)   
We don't talk a great deal about infertility anymore because my dh just runs out of things to say. At the moment, he's worrying about not having any work, getting stressed and then getting ill, so I'm trying not to mention it. I know just what you mean about keeping on a professional face for work, I do the same. Then I look at people I work with - and so many of them have families - and think 'if only you knew'. 
Cheeky comment about the dusting!   
Nicky, I agree with Kat, it's a great list. It's so easy to focus on what we haven't got and can't do and forget the other side. 
As for me, the useless body has done it again. My GP suspects high blood pressure, so I have to wear one of those blood pressure monitors for 24 hours, as every time they take it in the surgery it goes through the roof. As my consultant at the hospital said when I was diagnosed with coeliac disease this spring, you have thyroid trouble and it just affects so many other things, the process is just like dominoes falling. 
And I do not want to be on blood pressure tablets, the metformin is bad enough! (I hate taking drugs!).
What a pain the body is!  I still think the amount of stress, etc over the last seven years we've been ttc hasn't actually helped. 
Hellen, welcome to this thread! We do have lighter moments, honest! You are absolutely right about the one day at a time. It helps to build some things into the week that you can enjoy. As for work, yes, I know what you mean but at the moment my career is about the only thing in my life that's reasonably successful! The problem is that I can't stay interested in it, especially on those days (we all have them) when I feel as if my heart's being eaten out from the inside. 
Have a good day tomorrow, everyone.   

Rxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - my DH has white coat syndrome and his blood pressure goes through the roof as soon as he steps into the surgery. He had to wear a monitor for 24 hours too and I tell you, by the end of it, my blood pressure was through the roof! The noise of the inflate/deflate cycle every 15 minutes through the night drove me crazy   . Obviously he slept through it and his blood pressure was fine the whole time. We have a monitor at home now too and measuring the effect of rugby world cup and red wine is quite fun ......... our research has proved that the 2 should always be done together so balance out the effects   . 

Nicky - I can add something to my list today. I write well. I delivered a huge funding application on Tuesday, it nearly finished me off to do it but it was good. Whether I get funding or not, I can at least say it was my best written work yet and it was a flipping good idea too ........ we need a gold badge smiley   .


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## Libran

Horrible day at work    but now home in PJ's and succumbing to pizza and wine.
Nicky, I wish that I had your willpower and could give myself the kick start to go to Slimming World.  How are you today ?  I thought your list was absolutely brilliant.  In your honour, I'm going to get all crafty this weekend and make some christmas cards and get out an old tapestry.  Might even look at booking myself onto a sewing course.  Also need to make a butternut squash soup, as we have loads in the garden.  Hope the hair (complete with caramel highlights) is looking fabulous.
Kat - well, well done on completing the funding application.  What are you applying for funding for ?  How are things with DH ?  Hope you're making progress.  Please don't let IF tear you both apart.  IF can take so much from you, just you make damn well sure that it doesn't take your marriage.  
Rowan   to you.  I am so sorry to hear you may now have blood pressure issues.  Hopefully, with the help of your GP, you will be able to bring it down to a manageable level. 
Claire - how are you today ?  You seem pretty low over the past few days.  Do shout out if you're not coping.  How was the dreaded meeting ?
DH and I did make up after our spat during the week, but he still hasn't seen the pics of pregnant relative on **.  Not sure what he will say when he does ?  
Hope you're doing OK, Hellen.
Anyone have any good ideas for a wonderfully warming and cheering weekend ?


XXX


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## Libran

PS..... Rowan, I forgot to say, make sure you don't watch Supernanny whilst wearing that BP monitor


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## NickyRich

Hi girls, how are you all? Have been in stitches tonight at my parents' house watching Poppy (13 yr old westie) and Izzy the pup playing!! Having a good laugh really does raise my spirits! We are trying to get Izzy used to wearing a collar and starting lead training-what an experience that was-hahaha! My dad was walking her on the lead and I was crawling behind pushing her bum! My dad was thinking of the looks we would have if that is how we have to get her to walk out in the street! They really do cheer me up!  Spoke to my GP today-she thinks I am anaemic as I am breathless, tired, pale with black under my eyes and get lightheaded/have palpitations! Blood tt next Wednesday to find out. I wanted to get back into my exercise regime but she doesn't want me to do any strenuous exercise until results are back.  Lee and I are off to Oxford for the weekend next weekend and I am really looking forward to that! It will be nice to see some of he places I have seen on Inspector Morse/Lewis!

*Libran*-sorry to hear you have had a crap day!  Hope you enjoyed your pizza and wine! I have been going back and for to SLimming World for years but this year I have really gone for it-it was like someone had flicked a switch in my head! Have struggled with my weight for ages and suffered with PCO but since losing weight, my ovaries are no longer cystic which was good news. My low point with my weight was when the Head Doctor in charge of the fertility clinic told me in the waiting room I was far too big for her to even speak to and that I needed to go away and lose weight! A woman sat next to me gasped and I thought my hubby was going to explode! I was too upset to say anything and even though my mum said to make a complaint, I didn't want to in case she was going to be treating me! When I went back months later after losing the weight, she had finished (under a black cloud) I think and the nurses told me I should have complained as I wasn't the only one she spoke to like that! I was (and still am) overweight but I was only 13 stone 10lbs-not half a tonne!!! Am determined to lose 10lbs by xmas-would love to lose 12lbs to get me down to 12 stone-my lightest for years. need to pull my finger out!!! Good for you for making some xmas cards this weekend-my mum and I are doing the same thing! Love butternut squash soup-only have weeds and rubble growing in my garden since our kitchen extension!!
*Kat*-well done you! I had to fill in an application for funding in school and I found it really hard-think you have to have a talent for them! You will have to give me some tips!! Hope you are hubby are well xx 
*Rowan-hope the doc helps you to get things sorted and for you to feel well again xxx 
Claire-hoe you are well hun-sending  
Hellen anc Rachel-hope you are well xxxx  

Am glad you liked the list-I found it useful to write it just to remind myself that I am not completely useless! Am getting back some of my motivation again tank goodness and have done my ironing and cleaned my bathroom-things I have been lacking the mojo to do!!!!!  Also loaded a large amount of stuff on ebay-the money I make I will be taking to the craft show and the cake show in the NEC in the next few weeks! I am going to spoil myself! (have been doing that a bit too much lately-my bank manager will be going for counselling soon!!) Love and hugs to you all xxxxxx  *


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## doddyclaire

Morning girls

Nicky - I love your list!!  OMG I nearly fell off my chair laughing at your antics last night with the dog!  What a sight! Next time we will be insisting on embarrasing pictures   Enjoy your weekend away, and I hope your blood test results are ok, I too have some of those symptoms but put it down to too much alcohol and crap sleep!

Libran - Sorry you had a shoite day, hope the vino & pizza helped, sounds like perfect pick-me-up to me   I made a butternut squash soup last weekend - yummy and perfect this time of year!!

Helen - Hi & welcome 

Rowan - Hope you're ok and the BP monitor isn't too much of a stress 

Kat - Hey honey   Well done for completing your funding application, hope you & DH are "ok"

Had a spat with Dad yesterday about the bloody wedding.  FFS!!  Its too ridiculous to go into but I am still far too hormonal and emotional for him to be messing around with - he doesn't want to give me away as i've been married before - he doesn't want to do a speech, not even sure he wants to come!!!  I can only imagine how much fuss he would make if I was asking him for any kind of contribution!!  
Thank God for alcohol & pub food!!


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## Hellen

Hi everyone

Thanks for the welcome. I have not quite got to grips with you all by name yet so I will just say a happy weekend to you all   

I am suffering from the lurgy at the moment and have an assignment due in for a course I am doing so mega busy but don't feel like doing anything (apart from eating chocolate!).  Will pop in again post weekend - have a good one everyone

H
xxx


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## Nordickat

Hellen - i have it on very good autority that chocolate is a great cure for the lurgy ;-) Good luck with your homework. Anything exciting? Hope you feel better tomorrow.

Claire - don't let your Dad stress you. If he doesn't want to give you away because of some strange principle, the ask your closest bestest friend to walk down the isle with you. Or wait for the dust to settle and for you to feel better and then tell your Dad he has to because its important to you.

Nicky - i can't wait to hear about your first proper walk, or even better still, how puppy school goes  I love watching mine run round with the others dogs. Something cleansing and refreshing about it. I assume you areon iron supplements? Get some baby spinach too because you can put that in everything, raw or cooked, to boost your iron easily. As for proposal writing - sex it up big time ........ the text that is, not you. Although depending on the reviewer i suppose sexy photos of you might help lol.

Libran - my proposal is an environmental chemistry one. Looking for nasty stuff in the environment and seeing how likely it is to make you infertile ........... ironic hey ?!? I can bore you to death in private but too much info here makes me too googleable! I hope work was better today? No sild weekend plans for me. The forecast is grim so i think i'll be knitting the longest scarf ever.

Rowan - i prescribe a relaxing weekend of pottering and chilling to give your mind and body a rest xxx

Hope you Are ok debs? And you too Susan?

DH and i have been for a lovely long walk today while the weather was nice. We are such good friends that i can't let my bonkersness destroy him. I've been really really naughty and taken way too many of my emergency meds. Don't panic, my shrink had most of them locked away so i don't have access to a dangerous amount. Its been great;-) I'm less manic and can chat to DH normaly without waiting to cry. It means we can be normal for the weekend and i'll deal with the real world next week. I'm thoroughly enjoying the effects though ;-) The shrink will hit the roof though lol.

Love to you all,
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi everyone,

Libran, you are quite right about Supernanny lol. Hope the pizza and wine evening helped to make up for the awful day a little. I should lose weight, too, it's recommended for virtually every medical condition I have but my diet is so restricted already, especially being coeliac, that I just can't face restricting it anymore. As it is, there's not very much I can eat and I seem to exist on eggs, fish and lettuce leaves! No amount of exercise shifts an ounce, I'm afraid. Good for you, Nicky, actually losing some weight and sticking to an organised programme!
Kat, you're absolutely right and I foresee a crafty weekend here, unless the weather improves. Your afternoon walk sounds great and I'm sure it's done you an enormous amount of good, so to heck with the shrink! Your research proposal is ironic, to put it mildly! I am trying to put one in, too but I'm having to reconsider the area as it's children related and at the moment anything to do with children is an absolute no, no!
Hellen, sorry about the lurgy. What course are you doing? 
Claire, I agree with Kat, you don't need the extra stress at the moment! I'd give it a few days and then raise the subject again. If he really won't do it, is there anyone else who's close to you? My brother gave me away. 
Nicky, the dogs sound great fun! I agree, pets can really help to give you a lift. At the moment, I'm being miaowed at by a very wet kitten! I think she's trying to get me to feed her. She leads me down the stairs and to the food dish or the packet of biscuits, depending on what she wants. This is fine but I do wish she wouldn't start doing it at 5 in the morning!
Have a good weekend, everybody.   

Rowanxxx


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## doddyclaire

Oh Crikey - did I give the wrong impression?    I actually dont want my dad to give me away, we're having such a (hopefully) relaxed day that there are no formal bits, no speeches, no top table etc etc, it was just his attitude!  

Have a nice weekend girls xxx


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## Nordickat

My other suggestion was to have nobody give you away ;-) My Dad didn't give me away. I'm not sure what being 'given away' means when you are over 30 and well and truly independant. As for his attitude, well i guess we can just put that down to being a grumpy old man!

How come you are so artistic and crafty? My sister got those genes and I'm feeling a bit ripped off lol


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## doddyclaire

Ha!!  My eldest brother is a true artist, author & illustrator, my middle bro is brainy as they come, and me?  Well I was the crud left over


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## Libran

Kat, hun, you just be careful with those meds.  However, it's great that you're more relaxed, happy and communicating well with DH again.  My DH often says "Why aren't I enough for you ?".  Wish I could articulate an answer to that one.  Sounds like a really impressive research proposal you've put forward.  Fingers crossed you get the funding.  How are you going to feel about doing the research, though, if you do get the funding ?  Not sure I would cope very well at all.
Claire - weddings (however low key they are supposed to be) ALWAYS cause family stress and tensions.  All you can do is smile and go with the flow. 
Hope your weekend is filled with plenty of wine and pub grub !  I'll let you know how my butternut squash soup turns out.  
Nikki - hope you've had a good day.  What have the two westies been up to today ?  I'm definitely going to start that tapestry tomorrow.  I'm so impressed with your weight loss - you sound incredibly strong willed and self-disciplined (you can add those two to your list as well...!).  I need to lose about 1 stone, but just can't seem to get my head in the right place at the moment.    
Rowan, your kitten sounds adorable too.  My dog is my main reason to get up in the mornings, and, without him, I would be totally bereft.  What is your research proposal ?  Hope you get rid of that BP monitor soon.
So, not the best of days, today, but I have had worse.  Didn't have to work today, which I often find is not good, as it gives me so much more time to think and dwell.  I went for a long walk with my dog, went to get my hair cut and did some study for my Psychology A Level.  The hair cut was an attempt to boost self-esteem, and all was fine until DH came home, took one look and pulled a face !  
Wish I knew what to do next ?!!
Hellen - think you have the right idea - chocolate is the answer to everything
XXX


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## Nordickat

Libran i hope today was better? Do you like your new haircut? I would ignore your DHs face and just be pleased he noticed! Sometimes a change frightens the simple male mind so don't assume he doesn't like it. I bet you look fab xxx I don't look at infertility specifically so its ok. I do have moments where i think, why the flip should i protect the environment for future generations though then tell myself off, I'm doing it for the wildlife and not the people. I am in a bit of a mess with my meds but i have an appt on monday and we have a deal that i don't lie so it'll get sorted. Just a bad week to be left alone that all. 

Claire I'm afraid i was reffering to the artistic talents of the others rather than you ;-) You and i have other equally important qualities that are often overlooked i feel  xxx

Rowan- i too am curious about your proposal?

I have very exciting news today, its only taken 10 days but finally, this batch of chicks have worked out that the door is for walking through and the ladder is their aid. Seriously stupid creatures!

I hope the uk is drier than here.
Love katxxx


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## Debs

Hi girls,

Sorry for being awol - booked a cheeky holiday in Turkey so have been being a real lazy drunken sunshine worshiping human being  

I am just gonna start to catch up but hope you are all ok.

Love

Debs xxx


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## Hellen

Hi all 

Hope you all had good weekends?

We were up in Mancheser visiting DHs family - the weather was lovely blue sky and sunshine which always makes me feel better.  Although I have an annoying cough that I can't seem to get rid of which is keeping me awake every night, I am feeling  a bit better. I think the chocolate helped   

The course I am doing is a diploma in leadership and management.  I am only doing it because work agreed to pay for it.  I am a manager of an admin team in local government.  I find it fairly stressful and the travel to/from work is a pain so am looking for something else but not sure what.  I've been doing this kind of job for years always thinking that I would be better off staying where I am until I got pregnant - well it's been so long now that it's hard to work out what else I would like to do!  We want to do some work on the house - extending it and wotnot so can't drop too far down in salary.

Right I should be working now so will sign off!

H
xxx


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## Nordickat

Welcome back Debs, you lucky sausage. I hope your post holiday blues are bearable and you have loads of photos and great sunny memories to get you through the winter.

Hellen - cash is my problem with changing jobs too, that and lack of skills  . I know money is not supposed to be important but it kind of is when all the things that make you happy, like holidays and house extensions etc, cost money. Another diploma on your cv won´t harm the search for inspiration and something new.

Winter is on its way! The astroturf tennis courts have been flooded and frozen into an ice rink, and there are moose prints everywhere in the woods as they head down from high ground to go scrumping for apples in our gardens  . Oh, and it turns out I now have a drug addiction to add to my list of achievements in life  . Becoming addicted was fun but coming off again hurts like hell  but I´ve got help now and have no plans to stay an addict! Its frightening how easily it can happen, and how it can happen to anyone. Its a bit of an eye opener. Time to feed my somewhat healthier caffeine addiction .............

I hope you are all OK?
Love Katxxx


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## NickyRich

HI all, how are things? Have had a manic weekend so haven't had the chance to post! Saturday mum and I had a craft day making xmas cards and Sunday Lee was helping my dad fit a garage door so I spent the day training Izzy! On Thursday, Dad put her collar on her neck and she went bonkers! Became really aggressive and bit him! ON the Friday, I pup sat for mum and Dad to go shopping and as she was scratching her neck, she got her claw stuck close to her collar. I went to disentagle her leg and she bit me! Then I went to remove something from her mouth, put my hand on the back of her neck and she bit me again-drawing blood each time! We were concerned about this-we have never had an aggressive westie. However, she has only been concerned about having the back of her neck touched since having the injection when she was really poorly and had an allergic reaction so I was wondering if she was associating having the back of her neck touched to experiencing pain! Loads of internet searching later, we have been doing lots of work with her and she is now happy to have her neck touched, we have been able to remove and replace the collar (this is a slow process) and I also got her walking on a lead!! SHe is also doing well on sit! SHe has been a godsend and has really helped to keep me occupied. Am so looking forward to going back to work on November 5th-need to gt blood tests done first though-I am constantly tired and palpitations are getting me down! Want to start swimming and zumba again but can't see me completing 5 minutes of it yet!!! 

*Kat*must be so surreal to see moose footprints around! Sounds like winter is truly on it's way! Take care with the meds-they sound really addictive! I am so glad you have help with it too. 
*Hellen*-am glad you re feeling better hun! I have also been doing a diploma in leadership and management with the view to applying for Deputy Headships in the future. Have done my first year and when I return to work, hope to start the second year. Have even enjoyed the essay writing-in a perverse kind of way!! 
*Debs*-so glad you had a good hols 
*Libran*-how is the studying going? I loved doing Pyschology-did an AS a few years ago, didn't get to do the A Level as they weren't doing it as a night class. It's really interesting isn't it! Bet your hair looks lovely! My hubby never seems to notice anything I do to my hair! I reckon he suffers from 'follice envy'-being bald himself!! 
*claire*hope things are ok between yourself and your dad now xxxx
*Rowan*my friend is coeliac and she struggles to include new foods into her diet. My mum suffers with Crohns and as a result of the steroids she was on, has beome diabetic. The diabetes and Crohns seem to have an affect on each other and the dietician she sees now and again struggles to help because the foods she should eat for the one, affects the other!!!

Well, my car is off for an MOT today and my dad is taking it so I am off to pup sit again!!! Take care girls!!!


----------



## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Kat, the moose sound wonderful (though perhaps not in your back garden)! I suppose it's starting to get cold where you are now. We have mist, mist and yet more mist and the forecast is for nothing else until the end of the week. 
Nicky, good luck with the diploma! I am not sure I'd want to go into education management but I admire those who do. I'm glad your westie pup is a little calmer. I suspect you're right and she associates having her neck touched with discomfort. All you can do is to try to change that association and it sounds as if this is working. 
Crohns and diabetes isn't a good combination and I'm sorry for your mum. Coeliac and diabetes is bad enough. The diabetes means you've got to eat regularly, missing meals simply isn't an option because it makes the blood sugar go mad but there are times when it's very difficult, especially when I'm out. Trying to convince people that no, it isn't a fad, it's a health condition is sometimes a bit difficult and there are very few places where you can get gluten free sandwiches, for example. 
Good luck with the MOT!
Kat, sorry to hear about the addiction. Is this to prescribed drugs? If so, your doctors are to blame, they haven't been keeping an eye on the dosage for you. I hope it's something you can get sorted relatively quickly and that you have help to deal with the physical reactions to stopping them. 
As for me, I'm struggling after a bad night caused by that wretched blood pressure monitor! The nurse who fitted it was right, you do get some sleep but it's not enough, as the thing keeps waking you up, well, it did me, anyway. I don't understand why continuous readings throughout the night are necessary, I would have thought two or three maximum would have been enough but it seemed to go off every hour! I'm still wearing it as it doesn't get removed till late this afternoon. On the positive side, virtually all the readings have been normal. 
The research proposal is for a PhD, which I need if I'm going to go further in my career. There are times when I wonder if I should bother at my age but considering the government seems to want to make us all work until we're approaching 70, there is some point to it. I've wanted to do one for decades, anyway but of course, I had to put it on hold because of poor health and then because of the game we all play, the one where we tell ourselves we could be pregnant or breast feeding when it's meant to start, and so any form of higher intellectual activity would probably be impossible. It will be in literature or language and I'm still trying to decide on the specific area. I am thinking of ecoliterature or children's lit, which is an up and coming area of study at the moment, but of course, anything to do with kids...!
Debs, glad you enjoyed your holiday! 
Hellen, good luck with the diploma. Yes, it's that game again but I think it does get to the point where you need to do things anyway. As someone posted on a thread on this board, we've spent so much of our lives trying to do what others take for granted and we've put everything on hold for all those years. I want to get to a point where I can start to live again. What other work would you like to try for? Hope you're having a reasonable day, not too stressful. 
Claire, how are the wedding preps going? Don't do yourself down, you are definitely not 'crud'!   
Libran, men have no sense of style where we're concerned! Don't let his reaction to the hair cut worry you. The psychology sounds interesting. I know exactly what you mean about having too much time, I tend to ruminate, which isn't a good thing. At least if I'm busy with work, I can't do that. 
Take care, everybody. Hope you're all having a reasonable day.  

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Nicky - I wouldn´t worry too much about WeeWestie as she is still so young. Keep messing with her neck and rewarding her. Ours was terrified of having his feet touched when he was a baby and used to bite if you tried. After a while it was just me that could touch them and now anybody can with the only danger being a very big dirty wet cuddle  . You can´t beat puppy love though can you  

Rowan - Hoorah for the BP torture nearly being over! Your research sounds exciting although I am about to go and google ´ecoliterature´. Discounting the boys, DH and I have 6 PhD students between us. The 2 that have had babies during their research are absolutely awful, although to be fair neither were the sharpest tools in the box when they started  , and the other 4 are all fab ....... coincidence or evidence that motherhood rots your brain ....... ooh another thesis topic there  . Getting some of the work from the 2 mothers fit for publication is like ´pollishing a turd´as DH would say. So, no harm in waiting in my opinion but it sounds like now is the time to get cracking with it. It is meds prescribed by my GP and he was pretty negligent in giving them to me. I realise I´m an adult and responsible for myself but the reason I needed them was because I couldn´t take care of myself. You would only ever ask for them when you are in a very dark place and he gave me enough to finish me off several times over, which given my history was a stupid thing to do. I gave most of them to my shrink though to lock away and just kept enough to get by but without getting into real danger if I lost the plot. I have just been to collect a small amount from her to tide me over until Friday when we´ll discuss hospitalisation again  . If thats not an incentive to ´get clean´ I don´t know what is! 

 katxxx


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## Libran

Nicky - I think you are spot on with your diagnosis and treatment of westie pup.  Westies certainly aren't known to be an aggressive breed, and it sounds far more like fear and defensiveness than anything else.  You are right that pets are such a distraction.  Having my little jack russell (Alfie) has certainly changed my life around.  I really don't care if anyone else thinks it stupid / pathetic / sad that I treat him as my "baby", he's a much needed outlet for my nurturing instincts, and that's all that matters to me.  I'm loving the Psychology A Level, but I'm doing "home study" so have to be quite self-disciplined when it comes time to hand in an assignment. 
Kat - I really, really hope you manage to stay well enough to keep out of hospital.  Massive   to you.  Meds are definitely important, and they certainly have a crucial role to play.  However, they can only ever act as a sticking plaster, they don't heal the wound itself.  You said yourself in an earlier post "I'll deal with the real world next week".  Was the short lived relief that you felt over the weekend worth going back into hospital for ?  Please don't take that the wrong way, I certaily don't mean to be harsh.  We're always here for you   .  The moose footprints do sound surreal, by the way.  I'm sure if there is one country that knows how to do Winter (as a season) in style, it's Norway.  Bring on the hot chocolate and chunky knit sweaters !
Rowan, you are so brave dealing with all your health issues.  Hopefully you will be rid of the BP monitor by the time you read this.  I'm so pleased all the readings have been normal.  A Phd sounds like a perfect project to throw yourself into with abandon.  How about discussing JK Rowlings (failed ?) attempt to make the transition from child to adult literature ?!!
Debs - looking forward to hearing all about that cheeky Turkish holiday !
Hellen - maybe you should turn things around and say that not getting pregnant can "release" you from being trapped in a job you are no longer 100% happy in ?.  
Claire - hope you're OK, you've gone quiet.  
XXX


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## Hellen

Hi all
Have spent today at home trying to get on with my assignment - haven't got very far, it's amazing how many things I can find to distract me - even housework seems appealing   
I'd love to get a dog as an outlet for my need to have something to look after but at the moment with us both working long hours it's impossible.  My dh is not a cat person at all so thats not an option. We went to a beer festival the other weekend and they were racing ferrets - very cute but I still want a dog!
Libran - what a great way of looking at it as a release. I am trying to change the way I think about our situation and look at things in a more positive light.
Rown - I am not really sure what else I would like to do.  I really want to find a local job so that I can spend less time travelling but apart from that I'm not sure.  It might be that I stay in admin but just move away from managing people.  We'll see....
NickyRich - could you come over and write my essays for me please?!  Good for you though.  Hope your car got through the MOT?
Kat - your comment abuot moose prints made me smile. Hope you are doing okay.
In my attempt to "move on" I have been looking of ways of meeting women who are also without children for whatever reason.  I have found a meetup group called women without children rock (or something similar!) unfortunately they are London based so not easy to get to any of the met ups, also I have discovered gateway women which at first glance looks promising.  There is also a blog called life without baby which is worth a look (although seems to be USA based I think).
Take care all
H
xxx


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## Rowan22

Ah, the monitor is off at last! The relief! I have a sore, red and bruised arm with three long red welts where it kept squeezing but it's off and that's the main thing! I am now going to have a bath and tonight will be an early one!
Kat, I hope you are OK. The situation doesn't sound good. It was your doctor's fault, obviously and as you say, you shouldn't have been put in a position where this was a possibility. I'm glad you gave the drugs to your shrink and I think letting her dole them out to you is an excellent idea. I hope things improve soon, I'm afraid even the thought of hospital would be too much for me. Libran's right, we're here for you if you need to talk.
Ecoliterature is what I call the genre of people's literary responses to the environment, basically. Think Thoreau,  the father of American ecolit and the Lake poets in this country. The American response is very different to ours because they have lots of untamed wilderness and we don't. Not anymore. There's often more than a hint of menace and danger, still, in their nature writings, e.g. Annie Dillard's. We have Wordsworth in a rapture over daffodils but we also have R. S. Thomas, whose poetry invokes mystical experience as well as the sheer hard grind of trying to make a living in his part of Wales. 
OK, you've probably had enough of that! The important thing to me is to use the research to articulate my sense that place and identity are inexorably linked. If I do it on children's lit I am hoping to avoid Rowling, if at all possible. I'm sick of all the hype. Kat, your PhD candidates sound dire! I thought the idea at this level is that you do all the work yourself! I know you have supervisors but I didn't realise they did the work for you. It sounds much easier than I'd realised!  
I suppose the unending sleep deprivation associated with having babies doesn't help anyone put together a research thesis. Seems odd, then, to try to do both at the same time. 
Anyway, look after yourself. I agree with Libran about the chunky sweathers. Very nice!
Hi Claire and Debs. Hope you're OK.
Hellen, Gateway Women is a great site, though several posts have had me close to tears. (Check out the comments threads, too). The writer is a trained counsellor and offers one to one help as well as a programme for childless women though again, she's based in London which is no good for me.  A lot of the childless blogs are American and their take on it is inevitably a bit different from ours, though most of American society seems to be as child-mad at the moment as we are in this country. I think it's very  hard to meet up with other women in our position because all you ever seem to meet are the ones with families. Good to see you starting to explore your options re work. I agree about travelling, it is a bind. You seem to be making huge strides already!

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Lol, rowan. All i do is provide guidance and kick their lazy butts in the right direction. No spoon feeding from me. You have to earn your stripes in our departments ;-) A PhD isn't hard as such though, hard work yes, but if you are doing something you are passionate about then its easy to put in the work. As for having heard enough, nope! I spent ages looking at ecolit and ecocriticism this afternoon. I got far too engrossed. If you need a research asisstant I'm your girl  All i know of annie dillard is 'pilgrim at tinker creek' after spending a lot of time in the mountains in virginia. I guess i have a lot to learn but as my brain has not been rotted by motherhood, i reckon i'd be ok ;-) I'm excited for you already lol.


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## doddyclaire

Hey hey hey!!

Sorry i've been AWOL 

I have read everything I promise but brain = sieve atm, so promptly forgotten pretty much everything  

Kat - thank you hun for your messages, i hope the withdrawl process isn't too hard on you  

I've had to spend the last couple of days travelling into London & back for work so bloody long days, and late nights make for an incredibly tired & grouchy Claire!! Am now cramming 8 days work into two so if i'm not around much, that'll be why!!

Thinking of you all xxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat,
I may take you up on that offer if you have any spare time!   I'm glad that your research assistants have to earn their stripes! You've actually been to the mountains that Annie Dillard writes about? Wonderful! Somehow I can't see that making trips to those places is going to be financially feasible, unfortunately, or at least not if they're further than Wales (shame!). 
I have to get a proposal together. So far, it's at the bright-ideas-that-I hope-willl-link-up stage. There are other developments starting in my life, too. The problem is that I see families with small children, even on the box and yes, you've guessed it, all these new positive steps seem like so much moonshine. Back into the swamp of grief and despair.
How do you ever get past this longing and this grief? Isn't there any way to shut down the biological urge? You wouldn't let chickens or dogs suffer like this!
How are you today? I hope it's being a reasonable one for you. 
Claire, your work schedule sounds grim. I hope the commuting's come to an end now. It's amazing how tiring that is, I used to do it a lot. I hope the pressure eases soon. 
Hi to everybody else. Hope you're all having decent days. 

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - I was lucky enough to work on the Appalachian Trail many moons ago and spent a few months in the mountains of South Carolina and Virginia. As for getting past the grief and longing, I´m not sure there is any way to speed up the process but I do believe we´ll get past it. I honestly think we´ll stop grieving when we are ready and we´ll all move on. I suspect in some ways is harder than the grief of losing a close friend or relative, just because its a secret grief. You are allowed to show your grief over the loss of a ´real´person and its acceptable to be sad for as long as it takes but for our grief, all locked up inside, there is no real outlet because nobody knows, and to be honest even if they did they wouldn´t get it. You will get out of your swamp I´m sure of it  ´We can´t cause light, the most we can do it put ourselves in its beam´ I think that was Annie Dillard (?). You just have to keep looking for the right path, the one to make you happy is out there, I guess we just have to try and get out there and give our new lives a try.

Claire - don´t work too hard. I hope you get it all done in time to enjoy the weekend  

Hellen - I have a friend who swears ferrets are great and loving pets, although I did meet her in the nuthouse ................  . Now your house is spotlessly clean, have you got your assignment finished? Have you tried ´more to life´, they might have a group nearby that you can join.

Libran - you weren´t harsh, you were spot on and the pleasure wasn´t worth the pain. I´m getting on top of it though and have found a chocolate shop that serves fab hot chocolate which is my new and safer drug of choice, although equally addictive I suspect  . And I for one completely understand the importance of a fur baby. The only people who think its pathetic are those that have never been lucky enough to feel that unconditional love that we have felt.

I´ve just been signed off 100% sick for a couple of weeks as apparently having a wibble at work isn´t a good look!

Love to you all, 
Katxxx


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## Nordickat

It's snowing )


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## Rowan22

Kat, that's wonderful! All we get here is cloud, cloud and more cloud, with a side order of rain and occasionally mist. We've now had a week of this weather and I am beginning to feel as if I'm buried under a thick grey blanket. 
I love snow, I always have, it turns me into a kid again!  
I'm sorry you've been signed off sick but it might be that the two weeks will be enough to let you regroup, as it were. Do you feel better at home or at work? I know what you mean about the professional mask, I wear it, too but sometimes having to focus on something that's not related to what feels so awful is a good thing. 
You're quite right that it's a secret grief and it's so hard to explain to people why I can't watch TV programmes that have children in, for example. I also have no patience with parents' comments like the one I've just heard, about how hard it is to leave the kids for work and how much he misses them. I think, 'well, at least you've _got_ them! Stop complaining!'
Nobody knows this heartache if they haven't experienced it and the unending variety of possible choices that might lead to a family in the end actually makes it worse. When do you stop? When do you give up? When you're 64?
Chocolate is an excellent means of coping, I find! Can't have too much but actually diabetes gives me an excuse to buy really good chocolate because the more chocolate in the bar, the less sugar! I eat really top notch bars these days!  
Take care of yourself.  Hope everybody is OK.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - i stopped trying at 38 because i just don't have it in me to try anymore. Others have tried much harder than me but i need to find a new life now. We are all different though and big hugs winging their way across the north sea.

I'm off to the Cabin now to see some real snow. I fear i may be too late for an autumn photo claire but snow picture to follow on monday. I just had a top session with my shrink and just made a huge leap forwards after so many steps back. Feeling super proud 

Have lovely weekends one and all.
Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - I am utterly jealous of your snow!!  Have a fab weekend hun xx

Rowan - i'm with you there, friends of ours have just had their first chicd and I cannot bring myself to say congratulations, how awful does that make me  

Girls, have a lovely weekend, i'm off to see Muse!!  xx


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## Nordickat

Don't be too jealous Claire. I'd forgotten how cold snow is! I'm hiding under the duvet til i hear the crackle of the fire. The cabin is 10 degrees this morning. Thank goodness for snuggly pooch.

Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Ha!!  That'll teach me, driving home last night into a blizzard just outside Ipswich - never imagined that in October!!!

10 degrees??  Brrrr


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## MandyPandy

Hiya ladies

Would you mind me joining you?  I'm so sad to see some of you on here who I recognise from having interacted with over the years.

Some days I'm good, some days I'm bad but mostly I'm just trying to get on with life.  I'm throwing myself into my law degree to try and help with moving on but some days I just get blindsided by it all.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if I could join you - I'm trying to move on but none of my friends understand.  They think the decision to stop means an end to it all but of course it doesn't, so I just don't have any support from anyone and would really like to just chat with others in the same boat - even if it's not talking about all of it, it makes a difference just 'shooting the breeze' with people when you know they've been through the same thing as you and are coming out the other side - it just makes you feel you have more in common from the outset IYKWIM?

Big hugs

xxx


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## doddyclaire

Hey Mandy - I remember you from a couple of threads, sorry to se you here but jump right on in, we're all swimming in the deep end here 
And we all know what you mean, and how you feel, I tried explaining it to a friend last night, but might as well bang your head on a brick wall!!

Anyhoo.....here for you, offload here or rabbit on about other stuff, we don't mind 

xx


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## MandyPandy

Cheers Hun   I remember you too.  In terms of friends, I put a big post up of ** about deciding not to continue - I have about 200 'friends' on there (including my nearest and dearest), and not one single person picked up the phone to talk to me about it - to ask me how I was.  Not one.  Made me realise how alone I really am and I hate feeling like that.  People just don't get it.  It's not like you've stopped wanting children, just acknowledged that it will never happen - the two are not the same at all.

Anyway, I'm mostly good but there are just some days when I get blindsided.  I certainly don't want to mope around but do accept that there are times when it will happen and to just let it out as and when. 

So, I'm off to the gym this morning with DH.  The tables have turned - he tried to put his jeans on this morning and couldn't do them up.    He's gone to get his hair cut and left in a massive strop.  Now he knows how I feel!!!!

Should be interesting though, my trainer is away but I don't want to let things slide in his absence.  I'm waiting to see whether I can do it on my own or whether I do a couple of reps and give it up as a bad job to go and get a coffee (full caff - HAH!). 

DH and I are then going to head out for a mooch around town - I'll be taking my nice long coat out for the first time this year and am sooooo looking forward to it.  I love the winter.

Are you up to much this weekend?


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## doddyclaire

Good luck at the gym, i've been slowly getting back into it, but this time of year is too hard!!

Been and done grocery shopping, slammed a cake in the oven, need to do housework now then we're off to a fancy dress halloween partaay tonight, the excitement never ends


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## Nordickat

We meet again mandy xxx I wish it was on another thread. Welcome to our little family of troopers.

The toilet was -5 this morning and thats a sure fire way to wake up quickly! Had a lovely walk in the clear blue sky and blew away a few cobwebs. Apparently we are in for a tough winter Claire so get used to driving in blizzards. I love my winter coat too mandy and can't wait for the need to wrap up in it. 

Enjoy (not sure thats the right word) the gym mandy, and enjoy the party Claire. I'm now sat in the window in my rocking chair about to get my knitting out ......... they don't call me 'wildthing' for nothing lol. And i don't plan on moving until pooch needs his next walk in a few hours.

Coffee has brewed so time to get settled,
Katxxx


----------



## Rowan22

Good afternoon to anybody who's reading!
It's a grey cold afternoon here, though a bit warmer than yesterday. I'm beginning to wonder if we will ever see the sun again and I spent yesterday morning trying to garden between showers. Some of the showers had hail and thunder and the gaps between them only seemed to last about three minutes; every time I ran out of the greenhouse, the rain came down again! I was trying to dig up carrots before the veggie plot is rotovated but they have more or less disappeared now and it took me ages to locate any of them, especially in the hail! In the end, I found a few and gave up.
Of course, we've now reverted to GMT, which I hate. As someone put it in a poem, we've been 'docked of one whole hour of light'. It will be dark at 4 from now on and I'm dreading it, quite frankly. I do find the long dark months make my tendency towards depression worse, especially as the weather often forces me to stay indoors. 
Anyway, on a brighter note, I have placed an order on Amazon for some of the books I need before I can write a PhD proposal, Kat. One of them is a seminal work in ecocriticism, which I must read, but it's expensive, as it's American and published by Harvard. It was around £20 even second hand. Going on to Amazon is fatal for my bank account, as I browse and find other books which I have to read or want to read or have just been thinking about reading for some time - and this is before I look at music or vids!  
Claire, hope you enjoyed your party. A blizzard near Ipswich, good grief! We're not that far from Suffolk and the thought of that snow is scary!
Mandy, it's great to meet you but I'm sorry you've ended up here. It's the board no one wants to join but there are some wonderful, caring people on here. I still get blindsided, I'm afraid and I think it happens for a time. Today I feel positive about starting research and beginning to complete a project (hopefully, it's taken years so far!) but I'll watch TV tonight and end up seeing an ad that features a family with cute kids or I'll just be innocently watching a programme whose presenter suddenly decides to drag his kids into it *(why*, for God's sake?! Why do they have to get everywhere? David Attenborough didn't drag nephews or nieces off to Antarctica with him!). I know what you mean about ******** and that's one reason why I don't have a presence on it, I can't stand the scan photos, the updates, the proud parents at Xmas parties, etc, etc, etc. Hope that coat kept you nice and warm!  
Kat, your Saturday sounds really nice, actually, warm and restful. Sometimes we need that. Minus 5, brr! I did notice from a blog I regularly read that's written by a Danish woman that winter seems to have already started in Scandinavia, she has snow. 
Hope you're enjoying your Sundays, everyone.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

It was -10 this morning which was a big big shock. Glorious blue sky still though. Its rain all week now though and give me cold over that any day. Maybe you should try one if those light lamps rowan. We have a few at work and some people swear by them.

Claire i Forgot to Ask what you went to the party as?

Just seen skyfall and i'm so going to be a bondgirl when i grow up 

Anyway, just came on to polish my halo. I've been clean for 2 days and I'm feeling quite smug ...... lets just ignore the fact it was self inflicted gross stupidity lol and focus on the fact I'm nolonger hooked.

Katxxx


----------



## doddyclaire

Morning morning!!

Kat - Well done girlie, half hour in front of the pat on the back machine for you!!!  Kep up the good work!!  -10  Fk me, thats tooooooo chilly!!  I cant wait to see the Bond movie but were gonna wait until the rush has died down.  Tonight we'll go see Taken 2 as I do like a good dose of Liam Neeson!!
Saturday I went as Columbia from Rocky Horror!!  Was a great night although I lost all of yesterday morning, and my stomach contents to the hangover 

Rowan - Oh good luck with your proposal, I am in awe of anyone who can commit themselves to such a task!  So you're near Ips too!!  Oooh its a small world isn't it!
I never understood the point of us continuing the clock changing malarkey, surely its more sensible to just leave them alone??!


----------



## Libran

Morning Girls  
Kat - so proud of you for coming off the meds.  You are, quite simply, amazing.
Rowan - very proud of you too for taking another step forward (ordering the books) in order to write your proposal.  
Claire - sounds like you had a full on weekend   How's the headache now ?!!!
Nicky - hope you and the gorgeous westies are well.
Welcome Mandy.
Had a funny old weekend.  Ended up in tears on Sunday, as I started to read the Linda Hunt Anton book "Never to be a Mother".  She talks about "allowing children into your life" and says that those of us that don't are not "life affirming".  Sorry, but I just can't handle it, and don't see myself being able to handle it in the future.  So, I'm clearly not "life affirming" (whatever that means ?!!).  I HAVE to take myself in hand, so I have started a serious diet (yes, ha, ha, ha, ha) and have been searching furiously on the internet for a new job.  Amazingly, I have found my absolute dream job.  The closing date for applications is Friday, and I need to write a Personal Statement to go with my application.  However, I really don't know if I should bother, I've had so many knock backs.  Sometimes, it is just easier not to bother, to protect yourself from the pain of inevitable rejection.
OK, I'm now off to continue with the day (mum coming for coffee in a minute) and my non-affirming life XXX


----------



## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Libran, what an absolute load of tosh! Not 'life affirming' my aunt fanny! Is the book American? I have noticed, after reading god knows how many blogs from childless women that the Americans do seem to take slightly different approaches from the British ones, though the pain's the same. Only yesterday I was reading one where the woman told herself she needed a kick up the backside, for example, for feeling down and miserable. I don't think that's a very compassionate approach, personally, though obviously wallowing in negativity doesn't help. 
I have nothing to do with other people's kids and it's going to stay that way! I am dreading going out this afternoon because it's the half term and everywhere will be filled with children and families. It just hurts too much to envisage being the universal 'auntie' and I am not going there. I did fulfil that role in my twenties to friends' kids, when I thought it would be my turn some day, but I couldn't do it now.
Chuck the book in the bin and watch something stupid on the box, if you can! And yes, apply for that job! It sounds like a great opportunity! You have a few days to think about the statement, which I always think is the most difficult bit of job applications but you could start doing the routine stuff (name, address, qualifications, etc).
The job's about you, as a person and a professional, not biology, which is what's bu**ered up, in our cases. Nothing we can do will force our bodies to do what we want (and mine's being a real pain this morning, the sugar isn't where it should be) but what we do with our minds is our own achievement, especially as for some of us everything is just so damn hard!
Kat, I agree with Libran, well done!  Hope it's not quite so cold for you this morning.
Claire, the party sounded fun. Glad the Bond film is so good, my dh is a Bond fan so we'll be seeing it at some point. I still think the piece he did with the Queen for the Olympics was amazing! Yes, we're in Norfolk now, not far from the border with the Fens. Enjoy yourself tonight!
I hope those books will be enough to get the proposal written, as I do want to submit it before Xmas.  Of course it doesn't have to be set in stone at this stage, but I do have to show that I have a reasonable idea about where I want to go with it and I'm aware of the major positions, theoretical approaches, etc. 
Take care, everyone. Libran, don't let the stupid book get to you!   

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

Libran - protecting yourself from rejection is one thing but you'll be leaving yourself wide open to the dreaded 'what if'. One thing for sure is that you'll never get your dream job if you don't at least try. What if this job has your name on it hey? It's got to be worth a try. Do it! You'll regret it one day if you don't. And as for exposing yourself to kids, well I think that will come when we are all good and ready and since it's still such early days for us all then there is no rush. My shrink said this week that if something is too painful then it's not therapy and that some demons shouldn't be faced until you are in a string enough place to take them on. Life is too long to knowingly put yourself through heartache. 

Claire - I hope you are detoxed by now? What is your movie treat of choice? Going to the movies here is just not the same since we don't have revels :-( In fact we don't have minstrels or even m&m's as 2nd choices .... its like living in the 3rd world. Let me know what you think of Taken2. 

Rowan - good to hear you so enthusiastic about your proposal. I'm also a sucker for amazon ane have the dangerous 1-click option set up so no need to even put my card details in. I decided to by a tv series from iTunes last week and though i was being super cunning and secret about it but didn't realise it was DHs account i was using and he got an email confirmation of my purchase ...... oops!!

I'm home again now so not so cold although the rain turned out to be 10 cm of snow. It's way too early for winter!! Thanks for the gold stars and back patting  It's been a tough old day but I've been good again despite the bad voice inside me egging me on!

Oh, and is mine the only pooch refusing to change his internal clock? He has driven me bonkers today expecting everything to happen an hour early!

Katxxx


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## NickyRich

Hi girls-how are you all?? I'm back from a fab weekend in Oxford-loads of sightseeing, walking (around 20 miles over the weekend) and too much eating!  Diet starts afresh tomorrow-things are feeling tight on me!!  Was so nice to get away from things for a couple of days!  Did something I have always wanted to do-a ghost tour!!  It was fab!!  Last night the fire alarm went off-about 10 o'clock!  Was in my pjs-had just watched Downton.  Had to dress-could not have been outside with no bra on and firemen around!!!  We were outside in the rain for over an hour!  Some fool was smoking in the room!!     got back to room at 11.10!    Realised how many badly behaved children there are around-most of them in the museums!  I found myself giving my school teacher look quite a lot!!!  Went into work on Thursday to see the girls and the children and had a fab greeting from them all!  Had a text on Friday off my friend in work (one of the few who knows about my recent failed treatment) and the teacher in school has announced her pregnancy!  Have dealt with two pregnancies in school this year and was pleased to think as they are off on maternity, I wouldn't have to hear about pregnancy stories etc and now, at my lowest, I am going back to it again!  Cried most of the day on Friday I think!!  The girls in work tend to talk 'babies' and pregnancy quite a lot if someone is expecting.  Can see me having to leave the staffroom for a few weeks.  This teacher has had IVF and it failed, this is natural.  MOst of them know about my first treatment so I am expecting to  hear 'it can happen, don't give up etc!!  Bo$$ocks!!!!!  Not looking forward to that!  As soon as I start to wrok on picking myself up, I seem to suffer another blow!!!     I will get there-I have to!  Off to have a bath now so will do personals tomorrow.  Heard from two friends in New York-their flight is cancelled for tomorrow-they have to stay two more nights and the hotel is charging $400 a night!!!!!   that is awful!  Love and    to you all xxxxx


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## Nordickat

Big hugs for you nicky xxx Don't let your worry over staffroom talk ruin your excitement about going back to work. Coffee breaks are just a small fraction of your day. Hang in there.

I thought of a reason to be thankful for not having a baby. They grow into teenagers! Who in their right mind would want one of them?!?! I was on the bus at school kicking out time ........ jeez .........

Nothing more from me. Whacked after some hardcore 'here&now' therapy.

Love and gentle hugs to you all, katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Hey ho!!!

How are we all?  Ok I hope, hanging in there?!

Kat - I have to say I was proper disappointed with Taken 2 - wasn't as good as the first, and poor Liam looks a bit too old now.  Hope pooch has finally adjusted to the time difference!!  My cats demand food all the time - greedy buggers!!

Nicky - Glad you had a nice weekend - and i'm with Kat, don't let the mindless chatter undo any good work you've already achieved.  

Big   from me


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## NickyRich

Having a bit of a 'day' today! Spoke to a friend from work (one of the few who knows about the recent treatment) and she asked if I had heard from anyone in work. My other friend (who also knows) had text me to tell me about the new teacher expecting. I said that I knew and then promptly burst into tears! My friend has trained as a counsellor so is a fantastic listener and I poured my heart out to her over the phone. SHe said her heart sank when she was told the news and immediately thought of me which was lovely. I told her my concerns about the staffroom and she said as there are a couple of people who know, they will try and change the subject. Feel so bad about not wanting to hear anything from people-then again-they prob don't want to hear about how I am feeling!    Just when I think I am on the up, I realise I am not at all. Why is it all so hard?? I am still trying to bring myself to contact my cousin to congratulate her-think that will be for another day   ON the plus side, I went to Slimming last night and after a weekend of convenience food I only gained 1lb! Must have been the 20 miles of walking we did! Am determined to lose at least half a stone for xmas and am restarting my exercise next week as I have had blood tests back and I am not anaemic. Obviously, am just being a lazy moo!!!!  wonder if it may be down to all the hormones working themselves out of my system. I usually turn to high calorie comfort food when I am upset but instead, I had a syn free luch with fruit so that has made me feel a bit better!!!!!!

Izzy-wee westie is fantastic on the lead and is loving the freedom of going for walks!! My parents have been to their caravan for a long weekend so we saw Izzy yesterday and can't believe how much she has grown in a week!! Her and Poppy are the best of friends! They always help to raise my spirits!!!

*Claire*-had heard Taken 2 was a bit of a letdown!! Lee and I really enjoyed the first one. 
*Kat*-you are right about teenagers-I'm sure I wasn't like that when I was one!!!!! Hope your therapy is going well hun xxxxxx well done for being good, I will use your willpower as inspiration to avoid the chocolate this week!!
*Libran*-think I will avoid that book! Everyone handles things differently! I work with children every day and it doesn't worry me-put me in the Mother and Toddler group and I can't cope with that! I think I have learnt to separate my longing for a baby from teaching 3 year olds! I get the best rewards from them and send them home when they are tired and grumpy!!   Hope you have had better days since Sunday xxxxx
*Rowan*I too spend a fortune on AMazon! Since having a Kindle, I have gone cold turkey and not bought any books! I still have the urge to run into a book shop and immerse my head into the bookshelves and sniff the books! Lee thinks I am bonkers!! Good luck on getting the proposal written!!

Thank goodness I found this forum-it is so lovely to finally be able to speak to people who do know the crappy journey I am on!!    to us all xxxxxxx tomorrow is a new day and I hope to be my 'normal', smiley self! One little boy in school told me he had 'missed my smile'! Have to get it ready to go back to work on Monday!!


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## Nordickat

Libran - how's the job application going?

Claire - that's what we thought of taken2, i just didn't want to spoil your night out. They forgot to have a plot and just had some old man running around killing people. The worst thing is that there is clearly going to be 3rd, no doubt involving fights with zimmer frames and daring feats on stairlifts.

Nicky - it sounds like you have yourself a couple of really good friends there  I have faith that they'll keep their eyes on you next week. The anticipation is always worse than the event, be brave xxx

I'm feeling very rubbish today. I was supposed to be going to germany for a meeting next week and give a presentasjon and i just can't do it. I've been telling myself all week to buck my ideas up. I've travelled all over the place and been super cool and chilled but not this time. I was in bits earlier :-( And now i feel rubbish for not being able to do it. As Nicky says though, tomorrow is another day and DH has just opened a fine reisling 

Love to all,
Katxxx


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## Libran

Kat - well, I finished the Personal Statement and submitted the job application.  Now, I'm just sitting waiting for the inevitable rejection letter to arrive.  Sorry you've had such a XXXX day.  Why exactly are you getting yourself so stressed about going to Germany ?  Deep breaths.  Just tell yourself that if you don't want to go, you don't HAVE to go.  End of.  Now, once you've taken the pressure off, maybe you will be able to figure out and address what is really stopping you.  I have every confidence that you are perfectly capable, you just need to believe in yourself.
Nicky - sorry you've had a day and a half of it too.  Your friend does sound amazing, very supportive, and I'm sure she will be looking out for you in the staffroom during breaks and lunch etc.  Go easy on yourself.  There is no hurry to contact your cousin.  Do it when you feel good and ready.  I am still bracing myself for when my DH's cousin and his wife have their first baby.  My m-in-law is going to go into raptures, and I feel bad enough about it already.  There is no easy answer.  For a long time, it is going to be a case of 4 steps foward and 6 steps back, BUT WE WILL GET THERE.  Well done on maintaining your weight.  I am also going to aim for 1/2 stone loss before christmas.
Claire - any suggestions for me for christmas ?  Still dreading it, I'm afraid.  Are things better with your Dad now ?
Rowan - have your Amazon books arrived ?  Hope you have fun writing that proposal.
  to all XX


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## Nordickat

Libran - you never know, this might be your job. At least now you have applied you´ll have no regrets and writing a personal statement is always good for us even if we don´t realise it   . Stick it on the fridge door to remind yourself how good you really are   . I can´t go to Germany because I have all the signs of another breakdown around the corner. I´m taking this as a good thing though as its the first time I´ve recognised it happening and done something about it. One problem is being too scared to take my emergency meds in case I get hooked again   . The worst thing about being bonkers is the periods where I can´t read my book. It kind of makes me lonely when I can´t read. Is that a bit odd? 

As for Christmas, do the opposite of everyone else and then you have the world to yourself. Don´t waste the daylight by eating christmas dinner in the daytime, do that in the evening. Get up and go out for a long walk somewhere with DH and pooch. Take a picnic and enjoy the solitude. Nobody else goes out at the time so you´ll not see a soul. Then cook yourselves a fabulously over indulgent dinner and buy some really good wine. Get some proper chocolates too, the ones that are too fancy normally. Just be selfish. Lat year we got up, had yummy special breakfast, went skiing while everybody else was indoors. Then we went to a spa hotel and had a few hours being pampered. A bath with champers, laughed at DH wearing paper pants, massage, laughed at DH getting big Russian lady while I get sexy blond Swede, and then sauna and hot tub. Then headed back for lush dinner and ate and drank like royalty before watching a film we had downloaded not some family christmas film. It really can be a nice day Libran. Its a time for family and you are a perfect family of 3 so treasure that time together without the rest of the world interfering. 

We managed to get our company cabin this weekend which is fab news. Its somewhat more sofisticated than ours and has all the mod cons like water and electricity! It even has a sauna. DH seems to think we can go for a ski but I´m dubious. Its right on top of the mountain and the view is breathtaking so I´m expecting to come back cleansed. Right now its time for a lunch date with my friend (and her toddler   ).

Nicky - Remind me how old WeeWestie is.

Sorry that seems a very long blah blah blah post but no time to edit it. Pick the highlights yourselves   
Hope you have lovely weekends everyone,
Katxxx


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## Hellen

Hi all - just popped in to wish everyone a happy weekend.  I have been run off my feet this week, hopefully next week will be quieter and I'll have to time to catch up with you all. 

H
xxx


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## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Libran, well done for getting that job application off! I wish you the best of luck with it. Kat is right, it might turn out to be an ideal job for you!
As far as Christmas goes, I agree with Kat about taking a walk, if the weather makes it at all possible. We all spend so much time indoors at that time of year, anyway and I usually have a craving for light. As for the rest of the day, yes, do whatever you want to do to make it a good time! Some people take holidays, of course, which we can't afford but it is one answer. It can be a scenerio as far away from the picture of the idealised family opening presents under the tree as you want. 
Kat, the cabin sounds absolutely wonderful, especially as you're getting snow already! Have a great time! I think you're quite right not to push yourself to go to Germany if you've started to feel fragile and obviously, you know the signs. Your health is more important than the job. 
Nicky, horrible situation, which I'm not exposed to, thank God, as I work mostly from home. Having said that, just getting an email from someone at work announcing that she's seven months pregnant, which is why she can't make the meetings, makes my stomach curl. Of course, I have to grit my teeth and say I quite understand and that I hope everything goes well. Grr! The curse of politeness! We have an empty house next door now and I am dreading, absolutely dreading, the prospect of a mum moving in with young children! These walls are not thick and we would hear everything! Tears, tantrums, yelling, the lot! I would end up running away from my own home, unable to stand it (this has happened before). Well done on the weight loss!
Claire, my cats are the same and they like breakfast at 5am or even earlier!   But two are still kittens and the other one's a rescue, so we do need to feed her up. 
Hi Hellen. Hope the stress eases a little for you. 
Have a good weekend, everybody.

Rowanxxx


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## ANGELA29A

Ladies can I join you ?, recognize a few names, and sorry we are all here, but life goes on hey  

on a positive note, going to pick a cocker spaniel puppy tomorrow only a week old, how i'm meant to choose, god knows, but our little bundle of fluff will be due home 22nd dec, heres to a manic xmas!!!!


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## NickyRich

Hi all, hope you are all having a good day!! Have had a much better day today! Went for a walk with dad, Tom (nephew) and Izzy and Poppy! Izzy loves going for walks-she is 11 weeks old and she is fab on the lead and off the lead!! Mum and Dad went to have a haircut so Lee and I were pupsitting and walked her down to town and Izzy was frightened of the traffic! Everyone stopped to make a fuss of her but ignored Poppy and I found myself telling them how wonderful Pops was too!!! Her and Izzy are the best of friends and they play together all the time! Poppy may be 13 but she is full of life and can give Izzy a run for her money!!! It is so fab to spend time with Tom-he is the image of my sister and sometimes, when he says something, I look twice at him because you would swear his mum was in the room. She would be so proud of him! Have set up ******** pages for two xmas events coming up in school and I am looking forward to xmas-I love the xmas music etc!! It will be Nativity time soon in school and our concert is the beginning of Dec so we have our work cut out!!! Many in my nursery class can't even speak god love them!! Have done 4 hours of ironing tonght-yawn!!! 
*Rowan*-your puss cats are very early risers!!! Bet they are spoiled rotten!! 
*Kat*-you are doing really well at the moment and I admire you so much! Good for you for realising that you are feeling fragile rather than pushing yourself into a situation that could make you ill!! You are lucky having snow-bet you get fed up of it though! We just have rain at the moment!!! 
*Claire*how are the wedding plans going hun xxxxx 
*Libran*-good for you for applying!! I would plan a really indulgent xmas-something special that a couple with kids could not do!!! Spoil yourselves and have yourselves a perfect, romantic day!!! 
*Hellen*-hope things calm down for you! Hope you are ok!!  

Have been pretty good on my diet-had a lovely Slimming World curry for tea! Off to watch a romantic film with hubby now-NOT!! It is a horror about aliens-that's more our scene!!

My friend came to me last night for a scrapbooking evening last night and it was the first time I had seen her since the treatment. We were talking about how unfair it is etc and I said I was looking forward to Lee and I getting back to 'normal'. She said "You married each other because you love each other deeply, not because you were thinking of the children you might have'. Made me realise how right she was and I am going to dedicate myself to making our relationship special again and to spend loads of time together-something my friends with kids can't do much of.

Love and hugs to you all, hope the weekend is a good one!!! (hope there are not too many fireworks this weekend to frighten the pets in our homes!!)

*Hi Angela, welcome hun!*It's lucky you are not taking me to choose a pup-would want them all!!! Am in love with my mum and dad's westie pup-11 weeks old! Am madly in love with their 13 yr old westie too!!!!


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## ANGELA29A

Thankk you nickyrich for the warm welcome, 


"You married each other because you love each other deeply, not because you were thinking of the children you might have'.  

You are so right by this quote   


Haha, dont know how im going to decide on colour, and then theres the name as well....arrrggghhh, but will take the edge of the sadness, as would have been my Dads 87th birthday today, we lost him in april


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## Debs

Hi girls  

Im sorry for not being about much and for being so slack at keeping up with you all ........ I was desperate for a thread whereby we could all just "chat" and no sooner does one get going and I go into hibernation  

I am still reading back and catching up so apologies for not being quite on the ball.  Our holiday in Turkey was lovely but I havent come back as refreshed quite as id hoped.  So many things running through my mind about would you believe - getting old!  I dont mean from an age point of view but more of a I dont know what im supposed to do thing. I see my friends going shopping with their daughters, a lot of them going to bonfire nights, getting organised for xmas etc and they have plans for this that and the other ....... but I dont  

I have been doing so well but the last say 2 months ive struggled and I didnt want to come back on after going into hibernation and it all be me me me in my post ....... but very selfishly I am  

For those that remember ....... I did go to by friends daughters baby shower and did very well but when it came to us all watching her open the presents and seeing all those little things those little people need I did get a bit wobbly - but hey I survived  

Anyway I will get my grumpy bum off here now and stop whingeing  

Love to you all and hope you all having a lovely weekend whatever you are up to.

Love

Debs xxx


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## Nordickat

Blimey angela, how do you pick a 1 week old? Mine was 4 weeks and that was really hard. I picked him because he licked me so much. He still shows love like that which is pretty gross now he's a big boy. I hope it was fun though. 

Nicky - thankfully our home snow melted because yep, we get sick of it. A couple of years ago we had it for a very very long 5 months!!! You really do have some wise and wonderful friends. Actually, can you tell me what scrap booking is?

Debs - huge hugs coming your way. You hibernate whenever you need and i thought the point of this thread was chitchat and smiles, and me me me when we needed xxx

We went skiing! 10km this morning with poochie (he absolutely loves it) and then another 10km this afternoon while pooch slept. I'm so unfit its embarrasing lol. Dreading the pain tomorrow ......... for me and him. It felt great though. Really not a care in the world stuff this afternoon. Followed by afterski that a) made me feel good that i'm as old as i am and passed the days of looking for a boyfriend, and b) don't have teenagers that i have to ban from having fun lol.

Love to everyone, Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Debs,

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about all those family events, like Bonfire Night, that we never get to go to - or if we do, we feel wierd and stand out. Sometimes, we drive somewhere we can see the fireworks but we're not at the actual event with all the parents and kids. This isn't being miserly because I'd gladly pay for them, it's just self preservation, something we all have to be so good at doing!
Well done on getting through the baby shower. Aren't those American? When the hell did they come over here? We used to give presents when the baby was actually born, didn't we?! Isn't that enough?
I have just found an excellent thesis, submitted for a PhD by an American, via the Silent Sorority blog, which I'd really recommend if you haven't already seen it. The thesis is all about infertility and recovery from infertility and all the emotions and stages. I have to admit I was shocked when I realised I am further along than I thought! Apparently doing things like some form of voluntary work means you're beginning to reach out to the community again, making a contribution but also coming out of isolation and starting to rebuild your sense of identity (e.g. so I may not be a mother but at least I can cheer up old ladies, sell second hand clothes or grow plants!) I do need to relate to other people, I've been isolated since before we moved here and that's been three years now but I cannot handle families with young children and I think it will always be that way. Fortunately, I don't have any in my immediate family, my brother hasn't had kids, either. I don't know how you can work with tiny kids, Nicky and I would get so mad with the parents! Some of them can't even seem to get breakfast into their children, from what I gather on the BBC news website. 
Apparently the wives of the two US presidential candidates have been competing as 'super mom'! When did this become so very important? Anyway, even if they had a dozen kids it doesn't say anything about their husbands' ability to actually do the job!
Kat, sounds like a great day! We are still getting rain but it is definitely getting colder. Why ban the teenagers? Why not let them have fun?
Nicky, loved the comment from your friend! And it's absolutely true!
Angela, so sorry about your dad's birthday. The puppy sounds adorable! I am sure you will be getting a very manic Xmas, our kittens are bad enough!
Hope you're all having reasonable weekends. Take care, all.

Rowanxx


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## doddyclaire

Angela - I can't believe you're here   so sorry darling, and big hugs for today  

Bah, I am being my usual rubbish self, I will read back, and post properly tomorrow but for tonight I found some bloody fine wine in Asda reduced to £2.50 and i'm sloshing through it!!

Big hugs my lovelies xxxx


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## ANGELA29A

Nordickat, it was a very hard choice but one we were all drawn too, now have 7 weeks to decide on a name 

Debs, Dont worry for the me post, i've only just joined the thread, but im sure we are all here for each other, when the going gets tough, well done on baby shower, not sure I could have done it.

Rowan, thank you, we got through the day, a few up and downs. Haha, yes w'eve had kittens before, totally manic..got knows what this little monkey will be getting up to, 

Doddyclaire, life is pants, but we all get through it together, wine at £2.50...wahhoo, might take a look today, see if our asda have any.....

thank you for the warm welcome, and kind wishes. xx


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## NickyRich

Hi girls, happy SUnday to you all!! The sky is blue now but we had awadul rain/hailstones/thunder yesterday! Still didn't top the fools with the fireworks! The dogs were in bits! They hate them so much! I think they should ban the sale of them and people should go to organised events if they want to!  Well, my friend from work had her baby boy yesterday-I was very proud of myself for not getting upset (well, I knew he would have to come out!!!) and was even able to put a comment on her pic of him on ********. Pat on the back there for me-just don't ask me to nurse him when she comes to visit!! Have been busy making some slimming world meals for next week-will fill the freezer! Also restarting my exercise next week-something positive to focus on!! 
*Angela*-choosing a name is difficult isn't it! When mum and dad had Izzy dad wanted a name he wouldn't be ashamed to shout when they are out walking!!! Izzy is so much fun but is into everything! They have decided not to put their xmas tree up this year as they can imagine her swinging off the branches!!!!   Big hugs for yesterday 
*Debs*-hope you are ok. Well done on getting through the baby shower-big  
*Rowan*-I LOVE working with the little ones-there are a fair few mothers that could do with being strung up though!!! They give so many rewards and I am so looking forward to going back to work!! 
*Kat*-I bet you do get tired of the snow! It is lovely when you haven't got to go anywhere!!! 
*Claire*-the wine was nice hun!! Am off to Asda-will have a look at that as I need to get some wine as bday pressies!!!  I don't drink wine so I never know what to buy!

A fortnight tomorrow is my appointment with the consultant to see why this final round of treatment didn't work! This time, I am going armed with questions-just to help me cope with this. Usually, I am too afraid to speak in case I cry-this time-I don't care!!!! Well, had better get ready-am going to the cemetary to take flowersto my grandparents' graves and to my sister. Wish she was here xxxxx

Love and hugs to you all,
NIckyxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Nicky,

I've always wondered what the point of these appointments is. How do they know what went wrong? It just seems to me that it's all so complicated and the clinics can mix the egg and the sperm and put an embryo where it should be but it's not as simple as that. So many times they just don't implant. Why? Some doctors say it's hard for us to reproduce but then you look at some women who manage to have six or more, often without even trying, and think, really? I think you're absolutely right about going armed with questions, it must help with trying to stay calm. Also, I find that even at a normal doctor's appointment, I'm inclined to forget things. 
Hope it goes OK for you and you don't feel too bad afterwards. 
Does anybody here actually hate their bodies for all of this or is that just me? In my case, I have other health issues and some of them are serious, so it's not only infertility but there are times when I wish I could just take this body to the nearest dump and get a new one! My health collapsed suddenly and dramatically when I was in my early thirties and I don't think I've ever been able to work through the shock and the anger and the rest. I did nothing wrong, I never smoked, rarely drank, ate healthily and used to bike everywhere. Then one day I ended up in hospital, in intensive care. Later, I realised I'd been left with chronic and incurable illnesses - and sterility.  Not being able to have children is the icing on the cake, if you like. 
I work, so I contribute to society, though my career has obviously been affected,  but the unhappiness and depression don't get any easier. Doctors are useless, all they're interested in is keeping things ticking over and doing the unending reviews that come with chronic illness (I've had so many blood tests it would be easier if someone would just install a tap in my arm). Nobody is too bothered about the mental states that result and though I try, I can't always help myself. I end up thinking what's the point?
Sorry, it's a horrible grey day here, raining yet again and November always makes me gloomy. Perhaps you're all right about the bottle of wine, though I can't even drink very much because it affects the blood sugar!   
Hope you're having a better Sunday than I am.

Rowanxx


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## Libran

Hi Girls
Angela, welcome.  I certainly get much joy from my little Jack Russell, and I hope that the same is true for you when you finally bring your puppy home.  Having said that, I've just come back from an hour long walk in TORRENTIAL rain - there's nothing quite like owning a dog   
Rowan, I've managed to track down that PhD thesis, and it certainly looks like fascinating reading.  I've skimmed quite a bit of it, but I want to get DH out of the house so that I can sit and concentrate on it in peace, and give it my full attention.  I'm sorry you're feeling gloomy today.  Grey November days have the same effect on me, but, in general terms, I do think that you have come much further along in the journey than you perhaps realise.
Debs, with christmas coming, you are bound to be having a few wobbles.  None of us would be human if we didn't.  I'm dreading a "just the two of us" christmas, and the idealistic ads on TV (depicting perfect nuclear families) certainly don't help me to feel any less isolated.  I've spent the weekend railing, in particular, about two articles that I've read in the Daily Mail.  The first was written by a woman who (together with her husband) earns over £100K pa, and was complaining (YES, COMPLAINING !!!) that her child benefits were going to be cut.  The second was written by a mother of three sons, who couldn't come to terms with the menopause and the thought that she would never be mother to a daughter.  OK, now breathe !!!! That will teach me to read the stupid Daily Mail.
Kat - snow is far better than the torrential rain we're getting here.  I'm sorry you're not feeling strong enough to make the trip to Germany, but, as you say, just recognising that fact is, in itself, a gigantic leap forward.   to you.  
Nicky - good luck with your r/v appointment with the doc.  Good for you for going armed with questions etc.  I hope that your return to work (is it tomorrow ?) goes OK and the staffroom chat doesn't get too much.  I've now nearly finished my tapestry and looking for my  next project.  I've seen a couple of x-stitch alphabet baby samplers that I could do for DH's (currently pregnant) cousin, but not sure if this would be a step too far for me ?  
Claire - wine at £2.50 per bottle ?!!!  Cheers and hope it tasted fab.  Might just have a glass with Strictly and X-Factor tonight, we'll see.  
Not having the best of days on the jaffa cake / kit-kat scale, so hope tomorrow is better XXX


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## ANGELA29A

Well my visit to you has been short lived, so sorry if i've offended anybody by joining, but by having a daughter already been asked nicely, in a lovely message to leave the thread.


love and hugs to you all.xx


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## NickyRich

Angela-you certainly haven't offended me and it has been lovely to chat with you xxxxxx


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## NickyRich

Kat-noticed you asked about scrapbooking. It's about telling a story using your photos and making pages with your photos using pretty papers!!! (and spending loads of money in the process!!) It's a form of papercrafting. Here are some pages-







][/img]

This was my sister's dog Max-he loved dressing up!!








][/img]

Here's Poppy-she hates dressing up!








][/img]

Max again-he loved the snow!!

I started scrapbooking after I lost my sister-I wanted Tom to know about his mum and wanted to preserve her in his memory. I love the fact that because of scrapbooking I take more photos, think about the story behind the photo and I look at photos far more than I used to when they were kept in a box. I do wonder what will happen to my scrapbooks when I die as there is no-one to leave them to (depressing thought I know!!)


----------



## doddyclaire

I'm quite p*ssed off now, why has Angela been asked to leave??  I don't see that her grief is any less than mine just because she has one child?
FFS, oh sod it, i'm back off to the wine


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## Nordickat

Its not putting a scale on grief claire. I suspect its different grief though. In fact i imagine the grief is harder if you know what you are missing iygwim? Angela knows how it feels to feel a baby grow inside and knows the instant love and thats probably harder to deal with than for us lot in blissful (ok not quite) ignorance. There is another moving on board though where some of my lovely old buddies are, the ones with kids. I don't think Angela us being hoofed out, more guided to somewhere where her grief can be shared more easily.

Anyway angela - Nice to talk to you and i hope you have a great Christmas with your new furbaby. My top tip is don't get you little girl new slippers with bits that can be chewed off ......... my Mum learned that the hard way lol. Enjoy! I'm very jealous 

Nicky - cool. You are so clever. I have no talent for that kind of thing.

Claire, Libran and rowan xxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - re teenagers having fun, i meant if i had kids they'd never be allowed out to afterski, in fact never allowed out full stop. What if they got up to the same things i used to. I'd be a nervous wreck lol.


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## Rowan22

Lol, Kat! The mind's boggling!   
Angela, it was nice to talk to you and I'm sorry you've been asked to leave. I know your situation's not the same as ours, but I do know that secondary infertility hurts just as much. 
Nicky, love the scrapbooking!
Libran, yes, grey wet Sundays are the pits. I've been doing a little cooking and a little shopping for ingredients and this has actually helped. Supermarkets on a Sunday are not to be recommend, though, wherever you go!
Love to all,

Rowanxx


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## ANGELA29A

sorry didnt mean to cause any trouble, doddyclaire, sent you a message, and we can keep in touch via ******** 

Nordickat, you are right by your words, guided to another thread, just a shame to leave this one when ive just found it, and i'll remeber about the slippers..lol


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## Nordickat

Sorry for so many short posts DH kept bothering me. You know how it is when they are 'absolutely dying' due to some minor injury ;-)

Libran - stay away from the daily Mail. I rarely read it because there is always something provocative that gets my blood boiling. I hope the sun shines on you tomorrow. I was going to say try and keep Christmas thoughts locked away for a while longer, but i'm guessing its started on tv and stuff already has it. I don't know what to suggest but i wish i did. I wonder if any bargain last minute trips away will come up. ((((hugs)))

Rowan - there its lots of point (((hugs))). You have a DH who can write you a list if reasons to keep fighting on. I imagine you have many friends who could add to the list. What doesn't break us makes us stronger, so lets make sure it doesn't break us hey? And i can hardly be your research assistant if you give up on everything;-) I hope the sun shines on you tomorrow too.

DH has asked me to be supervisor for a new phd student. The research is looking into the extent of the misuse of prescribed medication!?!? Oh the irony. Got to go, DH is too close to death to get his own drink apparently!

Katxxx

PS. Angela - my Mum still has special plain slippers for when she visits and pooch is 3 and a half now!


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## Libran

Nicky - LOVE the scrapbooking.  You are incredibly talented / creative.  I hope that your first day back at work wasn't too traumatic.  How did you cope with the staffroom ?
Kat - the christmas ads have started with avengence :-(    There's a particularly annoying ASDA one showing a woman running around like a maniac, being "supermum" preparing christmas.  The ad ends with the woman exhausted, but smiling, as she surveys the perfect family christmas that she has orchestrated.  The slogan is something along the lines of "behind every great christmas, there's a great mum, and behind every great mum there's ASDA".  Had me in tears today :-(    I hope you enjoy being supervisor to your new PhD student.  Also, hope DH is better.  Was it a severe case of manflu ?!!!
Rowan, I've read a bit more of that PhD thesis.  The thesis does talk about residual grief, but I did get an overriding impression of an author that wrote it with the viewpoint that after three or four years of IF hell, you come through the other end, closer to your spouse, and everything in life is well again.  Hmn ?  
Sorry - not having a particularly good day.  Now going to devour a huge steak pie and mash    and blow the diet    XX


----------



## Nordickat

to you Libran. I hope today is better?


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## Rowan22

Libran, the ads drive me mad! It sounds as if Asda has jumped on to the Iceland bandwaggon, the 'all mums are heroes' rubbish. I think it's important to remember that we're being sold a fantasy and that's all it is. I think any honest parent will tell you that after all the presents have been opened and dinner's been eaten it all starts to get a little too much, especially as everybody's tired and some of the presents will already be starting to pale. Cue, tears and tantrums and not just from the kids! Was the pie good?  
Kat, I love the photo! Was that the view from your cabin last weekend? Now that _is _a winter wonderland!
Well, at least we've graduated to frost, the grass was white this morning. More rain is forecast, though, surprise, surprise! How are you? Hope your dh is better.
Libran, that was the impression I got from that thesis, though I haven't read it all yet. I think she's quite right about the concept of residual grief, unfortunately and there will always be triggers, too, I think. She's right about the strong relationships that come out at the other end, though as we all know, infertility can crucify relationships and there are so many that don't make it. The absolute uselessness of churches and other religious communities in this context makes my blood boil, though I think it's a much worse problem in America than it is here. Some of the fundamentalists embrace the concept of huge families, the bigger the better, and if you don't have any children you are not blessed by God, apparently. Enough said. As for getting mothers to stand up at Mother's Day services... Even if I went to church, I wouldn't go on that particular day!
As for me, I am still trying to persuade the collection of bright ideas to start making links so I can write a coherent proposal. I hope to meet my potential supervisor this weekend. Slowly, we make progress. 
Claire, Nicky, how are things?

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

I did feel for you all last night. I heard an ad for getting calendars printed with your photos. I didn´t see it but I can imagine the happy 2.4 children family photos on it all gathered around the Christmas tree  . I´d forgotten how tough this time of year can be. I have no idea how you toughen yourself up against it though, short of only watching BBC! I´m sheltered from that I guess since we only have internet tv so can skip most of the adverts.

I haven´t taken a look at that thesis yet. I got tired of reading books where it seemed the authors almost gets bored towards the end and speed up the healing process. I tried to read some PTSD books, and even some IVF and depression books. They all start out all gloomy and dark and I could relate to them. Then the author gets bored so the woman is suddenly pregnant, nolonger suffers from PTSD or depression and all is well again. I always felt like life is over simplified in them, although I am aware thats its likely to be me just be over complicating things 

Rowan - yep thats the view from the dining table. Its the company cabin though and not ours.

Claire - I hope this week is less stressful than the last?
Debs and Hellen 

Nicky - How did you get on yesterday? The hope the kids gave you a huge welcome back to make you smile.

Something has been bothering me and I´d kind of like to know if its just me, although Nicky also touched on it so maybe I´m not alone. I´ve been thinking about what will happen after we die. Not in a morbid kind of way, just in a ´who will remember me?´ kind of way. What is the point in creating a legacy if there is nobody to pass it on to? I have one sister (with no kids as yet) and she is emigrating to the other side of the world next month ...... maybe she´ll meet your brother Claire  . And thats it. DH has 2 nieces and 2 nephews but I don´t think we´ll ever be close to them. Who do we leave our wealth (or debt  ) to? I´m really not being morbid, just realising the insignificance and pointlessness of my contribution. You know when you go to graveyards and there are lots of graves that are lovingly cared for, and then there are the overgrown ones that always make you a bit sad because somebody has been forgotten? Well, I´m going to be the forgotten one except I´ll be forgotten the very next day, and that makes me very sad.

Anyway, I guess chocolate was invented to cure such melancholy thoughts. DH has a bad back from a fall on Sunday, he is muttering about a prolapse but he is the walking definition of ´catastrophic thinker´ so we´ll see what the chiropractor says. Pupster has upgraded from stealing kindling to full on logs now so time to go and wrestle the latest from his jaws before the whole living room is covered in wood chips 

Love to you all, Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Crikey, every time I come on here with good intentions of posting properly and then find I just can't do it  

Kat - Your words this afternoon have touched a chord with me, although to be honest I don't give a flying one what happens after i'm gone, more who will look after me in my twilight years?  Sounds like those books you have been reading are a work of fiction!!
Hope hubby isn't suffering too much, although we all know with men it will be the worst form of injury/illness  

Rowan & Libran - I too hate the Asda adverts, but what can ya do?!  Its just yet another cruel reminder 

Nicky _ your scrapbooking looks fab  - very impressed!

Righto ladies, i'm after some advice if I can, not sure if you would remember, but I am still in touch with my old thread, and our xmas meet up is coming up fast, I want to go, but I also want to protect myself from what I know will hurt so much, seeing all the babies and those still embarking on yet more tx.  Do I make this my last visit, or not even go at all?  It feels like I need to start breaking some of the chains because I feel I am being dragged back every day into a world I just don't belong  
I'm not coping overly well and every day seems to bring tears at the most ridiculous reasons, actually coupled with a couple of other symptoms I think I may even be approaching menopause which is a sick kind of irony, or maybe I should view that as confirmation of my inability to concieve?

Apart from all that, my cat was hideously sick at the weekend, seems a bit better now, not sure my jeans will recover from him taking a crap in them though  
And we met with the registrar yesterday so notice has been given for our wedding - so mini hurrah there!

Big hugs to you all, sorry the personals aren't so personal!

xx


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## Rowan22

Hi Claire,

My own feeling would be not to go, especially as you're feeling very fragile at the moment. Could you continue to chat to these people on the old thread and leave it at that? I don't think I could cope with any sort of Xmas party or meet up that involved babies or very small children, personally. It's so hard, isn't it? We want to go out, we want to be sociable but every time we go anywhere, we get stabbed in the heart. 
Is your cat better now? I hate it when mine are ill, I worry about them!
I keep trying to move on, to do things but I think the extreme vulnerability is still there. Just getting an email from a colleague which has the faintest suggestion that I might have given her extra work, though I was only trying to solve a problem for a client and another from my possible supervisor which makes it plain that any meeting isn't going to happen until I've got that proposal written feels like a series of slaps in the face. I end up wondering yet again what on earth is the point of trying! I suspect this vulnerability is going to be around for quite awhile. I don't know what we can do about it. 
Do you get hot flushes and are you still regular? Sorry if too personal but these are two of the main symptoms of the big M, as far as I can gather. I do get the flushes from time to time (think of them as suddenly feeling much too hot for a couple of minutes) but my cycle is as irritatingly regular as ever!
Kat, I have to admit that I don't really think about who or what I'll leave behind, either, as long as it's not my dh. Also the way we're going there's not going to be very much money to leave! The graveyard scenerio is different and I do wonder about that. I hope at least someone has the sense to put something on my stone that's not family related (you know, they all have 'loving mother, grandmother, etc, etc'. ) Even in death, we women are still defined by our relationships!
You're right about most of the IF books, which is why I don't read them. Not everyone has the happy ending and not everybody can bounce back, even after years. 
Sorry about your dh. I hope his back improves soon and his fears are groundless. 
Claire, great about the wedding news!   

Rowanxx


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## Emziola

Hi Ladies,
Hope I can join you and get to know you all.  My DH and I have decided to not to do any more treatment after our last failed cycle and 'move on'. You can see from my signature the journey that we have been on so I won't bore you with it.  My OTD was last Wednesday so this is all very new (and raw) to me and although we are very sad, we are looking forward to the future and getting on with the rest of our lives.
Wasn't sure where else to post so apologies in advance if I have posted on the wrong thread!
Emz xx


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## doddyclaire

Rowan - my hot flushes are more like hot weeks!!  Lasts for pretty much a week after af now, cycles are never the most regular but anywhere between 21 & 28 days, i'm clutching at straws with the self-diagnosis!
Yes the cat seems better thanks, although he's not gobbling down his food with quite the same enthusiasm as last week, I think he must have eaten something dodgy outside!
I think this vulnerable feeling is the worst, before all this I was quite a gob-****e, confident person and now I find myself avoiding people and social situations, even when I know no kids would be there, I just can be bothered with trying to communicate with people who have absolutely no understanding of how i feel.


Emziola - Hey, welcome along, I read through your sig, you have been through a lot, sorry you find yourself here


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## Nordickat

Emziola - you are in exactly the right place so welcome to the fold  . I think we chatted about stuff a while ago.
Claire - firstly a big hooray for the registrar meeting  , but the cat poop thing nearly made me sick  . I think if your old buddies knew what the meet did to you then they would be devastated. Life is painful enough for you at the moment that I think you´d be crazy to add more heartache to it. How about not breaking the chains completely but just not going this time and then you can see what 2013 brings. I imagine there will be a lot of talk to first christmas with baby etc so it might be harder than last time. Give yourself some breathing space for now and you know if you feel stronger in the future they will welcome you back with open arms.  for all the tears too 

Its not so much worry about what happens when I die, more the realisation that my existence is pointless, I´ll leave no footprints and that I´m expecting a very lonely future I guess. Anyway, enough of that morose talk.

Rowan - is there anyone else you can use as a sounding board for your proposal? Another colleague you can brainstorm with? Just to give you kick start.

 sounds like we are all in need of some tlc. Be kind to yourselves - you all deserve it.

 Katxxx


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## Libran

Claire -   to you.  I think the very fact you are questioning whether or not to go to the meet-up means that you are not ready just at the moment.  I agree with Kat - continue the on-line contact and, hopefully, in 2013 you will be in a better place and more able to cope.  It is soooo difficult, because I wouldn't want to advocate social isolation (that is hardly mentally healthy) but you have to protect yourself from obvious hurt too.  Yay to the wedding notice    - let's start a daily countdown to Claire's Big Day - how many days now ?
Kat - I won't have much to leave, but what I do have will be going to charities, mainly animal charities.  I hate the idea of turning into the stereotype of the eccentric, lonely old woman surrounded only by animals.  However, I've come to the conclusion that I would far rather make a positive decision to leave to charities that mean something to me than let the government just take it.  Hope DH is on the mend soon.
Rowan - don't give up on the PhD just yet.  All good things need working at.  I hope you do manage to meet your potential supervisor this weekend and that the meeting goes well.  I've ordered the book The Silent Sorority from Amazon on my Kindle and started reading it last night.  At the very least, it shows that the way we all feel is not "abnormal" and, although we may be in a minority, we are most definintely not alone.
Nicky - how are you, hun ?
Welcome Emziola.
Hope we all have a better day today.
XXX


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## Nordickat

I'm hoping to leave nothing but debt when i go.  Its the thought of not leaving memories that upsets me because it proves that there was no purpose to my life. As for being a mad old lady surrounded by animals libran, well the idea is increasingly growing on me ;-)

Nicky - suspiciously quiet your end. I hope you're not over doing it?

One day less til Claire's wedding  Shall we gatecrash on mass lol.

My miscarriage was 3 years ago next Thursday and I'm finding it a bit tricky. The pain has always been masked by hope before, but not this time. This time I remember my loss knowing it was my only baby. That hurts a bit more than I thought it would.

On a lighter note, pooch is wagging his tail in his sleep ....... cute xxx

Love Katxxx


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## NickyRich

hello girlies-sorry I have been AWOL!! It has been so tiring being back in work but fab too! I had forgotten how tiring 36 3 year olds are!!! Had a fantastic greeting on MOnday-a cheer went up when I opened the classroom door to the parents and children!! Had a bit of a blow yesterday when one nan asked if I had been off because I am expecting! I told her I had just eaten too much!! Then launched into the 'fake' voice story!! There is lots of baby talk in the staffroom as one is pregnant and another one has just given birth! I am trying to block it out but it is so bloody hard!! My head then asked me yesterday in front of everyone what did I think we should buy the new baby!! Helloooo Not the right one to ask at the moment!!! Think she was having a 'blonde' moment!! Dipstick! To celebrate my return to work, a period from hell arrived on Monday morning! Think it is so much heavier than usual due to the very recent failed treatment-it is the first 'normal' one after the treatment! I feel like a balloon and everything feels tight, have headaches and gained half a pound in Slimming! So gutted, then bought chips on way home!!! It is not down to the food as I have been good this week so hope to see that gone next week!! I was proud of myself though as I congratulated the pregnant teacher on her good news! Felt like crying inside but pinned a smile on! Am so used to it now 

*Libran*-those ads drive me mad too!!! Everyone assumes you must have children to be a 'family'! The husband of the colleague who has just had a baby put on his ******** status-welcome to baby J-now our family is complete with our darling girl and boy!' Made me think that people don't think my family is complete as there is only me and hubby  More money to spend on ourselves at Xmas and on hols I suppose!
*Kat*-I often have morbid moments when I think about what will happen after I go! After losing my sister, I think about being alone when I am old etc!! I know this worries my mum too as she says she hates to think of me on my own when she has gone!! Christ, morbid or what!!  I certainly don't think you have a pointless existence! Look at all the lives you touch-watch 'It's a Wonderful Life' to remind you of all the people you have come into contact with!!!  (then again, I always cry in that film!!)
*Claire*-you are surrounded by people who know exactly how you feel on here hun and we are always here for you! Think Libran is right-let's look forward to your wedding!!   I know what you mean about avoiding situations with children. In work, I am absolutely fine as it is my job but outside of work, I find it hard xxx I don't think I could face the meet up-I am sure they would understand xxxxxxxx
*Emziola*a big warm welcome and cyber hug hun. It is very recent for you and you must be hurting so much. It was last month for me and I still feel numb and so sad about it. Have my follow up appt on 19th November, not looking for answers, just closure I think xxxx 
*Rowan*-colleagues etc can be so tiresome!! Have only been back 3 days and am already sick to death of moods, tantrums and tears-that's the staff I work with, not the children!! You expect it from a 3 year old-you don't expect it from a 50 year old! Wanted to shout at her yesterday-'get a frigging [email protected] All she has to worry about it whether she will have a 15 minute break!!!!   

Well, had better have a bath then go and eat chocolate!! Start afresh tomorrow-need to get some weight off as I have given my bigger sizes to the charity shop!!!! All my love and hugs to you all, the only people I can really pour my heart out to xxxxxxxxx
Nickyxxxx


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## NickyRich

Kat-big, big hugs hun xxxxxxxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Emizola and welcome to this thread of kind, caring people. I am sorry for your bfn, last Wednesday is still not very long ago. Take time and space to grieve and be good to yourself. Do post on here when you want to, we all try to support each other. 
Nicky, know just what you mean about colleagues! I think you are doing incredibly well, not only doing a job that involves working with very small children but also putting up with all the staffroom baby stuff! I don't know which I'd find hardest, to be honest. You're probably right about the reason for the bad period, IVF etc really mucks up your hormones and your body has to readjust. I've always had problems with them, so you have all my sympathies. The weight gain might be water, actually, I always put on weight at that time of the month. Anyway, if you have gained half a pound really that's not that much, especially considering what you've just been through. I think women often eat comfort food, unfortunately, to try to feel a little better. I've been stuffing myself with chocolate and sweets this evening, partly because I am utterly fed up with my husband's attitude to his work (or non work) situation. He's had about four or five weeks work, in all, since the middle of July when the last school year finished and he has nothing at all for this new half term. I know he can't _make_ the agencies give him work but it's the fact that he won't look at anything else that gets to me. At this rate, we'll be eating bread and cheese for Xmas dinner, as what_ I _earn has to go on the rent. It's easier to stuff sweets, despite the effects on my blood sugar, than to start shouting and have a blazing row. Also, I do need some time on my own without having to wait on him, and I am not getting it. 
Sigh! Rant over. You can probably tell I'm having a visit from the wicked red witch, too. What a completely pointless and useless thing it is. 
Kat, I am so sorry.  These anniversaries are so grim. As you say, if you think there's one more chance, it helps, in a way but when you can't, it feels so final. Thinking of youxxx
Libran, the author of that book has a website and a blog and that's worth reading. I find some of her thoughts really interesting and thought provoking. I know it's a different culture but I think the push to have kids is even more intensive in the States than it is here. She validates all the feelings you have and the fact that it all lasts such a long time. I think that helps. 
Claire, any wedding countdown tickers? It would make a nice change from all those showing the progress of foetuses! How are the preps coming along?
Take care, everybody. Hellen, Debs, how are you doing?

Rowanxx


----------



## Emziola

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for your welcome  ....can I just ask, being a newby to this, how long ago did everyone decide to move on? I can see from some of your sigs. I suppose what I really want to know is, how long before it starts not to hurt so much? I know everyone is different and it 'takes time'. Did anyone take time off work afterwards. I went back on Tuesday and I'm not sure if it was a good or a bad thing  It does take my mind off of it sometimes and if I was at home I'd probably be boo-hooing none stop.

Kat - Yes I do remember chatting to you before, I can't remember which thread now. Will be thinking of you next Thurs.  Anniversaries are always hard. I try not to remember dates if I can help it but my m/c was on Valentine's Day so it's kind of hard to forget  

Nicky - Hope you get some answers at your FU. I haven't booked my yet. I too am going for closure rather than answers. I don't think it will make any difference if he tells me why he thinks it didn't work. I'm not doing it any more so it all seems a bit pointless.

Rowan - Fingers crossed your DH finds something soon. Totally agree that AF is pointless - I have a visit from her too.

I've treated myself to a neck, back and shoulder massage tonight. Sending lots of virtual, wine, chocolate and ice-cream to you all 

Emz xx


----------



## Nordickat

Emz - I think we ´met´on the multiple BFN thread although I seem to remember us chatting by pm but I have no idea what we chatted about. 

I think we decided for real to not try again in the New Year. I was, and had been for a long time, suffering with depression and although not really related to IF, I think the realisation we´d never have children was what nudged me over the edge and I had a breakdown in January. I then stubbornly decided that failing to have a baby AND failing to do my job was not an option so I had 2 weeks off sick after my breakdown and promtly went back to work full time. I pushed myself very hard and had a much more serious breakdown 3 weeks later. Since Easter I´ve been mostly 50% sick. I tried 100% work straight after the summer holidays but it was clear I was heading back to hospital if I continued. I am currently 100% sick due to a ´black adder goes forth´ type wibble but I´m hoping to go back 50% in a couple of weeks. We are all different and I think you know what is right for you. If you are a stewer then staying home is not an option unless you have proper plans about what to do with your day, but do take it easy at work and don´t under estimate how much extra effort it takes to get through the day when you are feeling low. Don´t try and be wonderwoman and if you think you need some time out, and it´s an option, then take it if it´ll help.   I think we all forget how physically and mentally exhausting it can be pretending to be happy all of the time if we are hurting on the inside.

Oooh, that was very cathartic typing that. I don´t think I´ve ever been that candid about things before   

Rowan    for you too and your frustrations with your DH. Is he ok about being out of work? If he feels rubbish about it then maybe he is just scared of more rejection so isn´t looking for anything in case he is turned down. Remember Libran not wanting to apply for fear of a rejection letter. If he is suffering with low self esteem then maybe you can physically help him to look and apply? I know you are busy but maybe he just needs some help? If on the other hand he just can´t be bothered than I suggest a rocket up his   , there muct be some left after Guy Faulks  . I think you do need a proper chat about division of household jobs though. I hope the weekend is kind to you   

Nicky - I hope you can focus on how much you love your job and that that gets you through the staffroom chat. I have to tell you though that its really lovely to hear you so enthusiastic about your work. I´m betting that makes you flipping good at it too? It really warms my cockles when you talk about it   

I had a very exciting afternoon and DH and I bought a fabulous Frank Brunner painting. If you haven´t heard of him (actually maybe he´s not famous in the UK) then google him. He is fab and I´m now lying on the sofa with vino and chocolate admiring it. The guy in the gallery reckons he´ll be worth a few quid one day but sadly for us he is our age so we´ll be long gone before it could make our fortune lol. I love it though and plan to spend many an hour enjoying it. My friend is actually in love with him so we are doing the gallery and coffee on Monday together   

I hope you all have lovely weekends. The forecast is grim here so it´ll be an indoor weekend for us I think.
Thinking of you all, 
Katxxx


----------



## Libran

Rowan, I agree with Kat.  You and your DH definitely need a tough discussion about finances and division of labour.  Does your DH not work due to health reasons ?  If so, I totally understand that, but it does seem unfair that you seem to be shouldering the entire burden of financial responsibility for your household.  I really hope that you get to meet your potential PhD supervisor this weekend.  I have downloaded Silent Sorority (by Pamela Mahoney Tsigdinos) onto my Kindle.  I can thoroughly recommend it.  She very eloquently articulates all the emotions that I feel.
Kat - no idea who Frank Brunner is, but will google.  It's great to hear that something is giving you pleasure and making you smile.
Emziola - it's difficult to put any timescale on grief.  The more I read, the more I understand that IF causes both complicated grief (prolonged and excessive grief) and disenfranchised grief (grief that is not recognised by the rest of ordinary society).  Because of this, the grief can be prolonged, and there are always going to be triggers.  However, slowly but surely you do get to a stage where the sunny interludes eventually turn into sunny hours, then sunny days.  
Well, the rejection letter duly arrived on Wed.  Feel totally dreadful.  Can't manage a successful family life, and now can't manage any kind of career.  This, on top of parents not wanting to spend christmas with us, and facing christmas alone, led me to a mini-breakdown Thurs lunchtime at work (couldn't stop crying).  Luckily, no-one else was there.  I've managed to take next week off, so I'm going to use the time to regroup and try to get my head together.
 to Nicky, Claire and Hellen.
Hope you all have a good weekend XXX


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## Nordickat

Oh Libran i'm so sorry the letter came (((hugs))). Life is so [email protected] sometimes. I'm pleased you have a week off though but don't beat yourself up all week. I want to hear some plans of the nice things you are going to do. You need tlc Libran and stuff to remind you about all the good things that have been buried under the [email protected] recently. Hang in there xxx


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## doddyclaire

FFS - Lost a big post  will try again......


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## doddyclaire

Right, will try again (should have saved it first!)

Libran - so sorry you got "the" letter, what utter sh*te  please don;t be too hard on yourself though lovely, and enjoy your week off, try and do something just for you, something nice xx

Kat - I think its lovely you got yourselves a lush bit of artwork that you can enjoy!  Big hugs ahead of Thurs xx

Rown - SEND HIM OUT TO SWEEP STREETS!!  LOL - I would    Seriously, I hope you manage to work something out that doesn't involve you working al the hours to cover the bills 

Hi to Nicky, Debs and anyone i've missed!

Have been trying to drag myself out of my doldrums, today is "lets be happy" day so I had a lay in, done no housework and am going to cook a lush din-dins for us tonight, nice nottle of wine in the fridge - perfect!

Thought i'd also try and share a couple of weddingy-bit pics for my planners among you!  Ignore the brastraps on the dress pic as they most certainly won't be making an appearance on the day!!  And I apologise now about the size, couldn't get them to resize properley


----------



## Rowan22

Oh, Libran, I am sorry about the letter!   Rejection letters are never easy to cope with at the best of times, never mind when you're feeling fragile. I won't trot out all the usual cr*p about how there's a better job waiting, blah de blah, because that never helps me and I'm sure it wouldn't help you, but I hope you're getting some tlc this weekend. Stay warm and look after yourself. You're right about the book, though I haven't read all of it. It's unusual in this sub genre in that it doesn't have the usual happy ending. Pamela is still childless. 
Kat, I'm not sure your weekend's weather is any worse than ours is going to be, according to the forecast, which is cloud and rain, yet again. I wish we could start getting cold air, actually, because that would put an end to these unending frontal systems sweeping across the country from the Atlantic. There are supposed to be a few brighter hours this afternoon, so I will make a probably pointless attempt to dry some washing. I'm glad you bought the painting and you're enjoying it. There is a real pleasure and satisfaction in owning original works of art, I know, though so far I only have one piece of genuine fabric art. Everything else is a print. 
My dh got one day's work yesterday. It's not much but at least it's something. The problem is that he does agency work and the agencies simply haven't been offering him anything. He can't work full time or even part time in a permanent position, as he gets stressed and then he gets ill. He can't help all this, I know but what does exasperate me is that he won't look at anything else and if he does get as far as finding something else that might be suitable, he never actually applies for it! In the meantime, I end up paying the rent and have no money left over, which is depressing. 
Emizola, it all takes a long time, I'm afraid though I know this isn't what you want to hear. The agony of realising you'll never have your own child does ease, after awhile but in my experience that involves a lot of crying and bouts of fierce anger, especially as those people who can pump them out like rabbits often make lousy parents. It's blind biology, I'm afraid and Nature is a bi*ch. In my case, the problem is that I've been ill so much and every illness I've had is one of those that either stops your fertility or makes you likely to miscarry. Now, of course, I'm too old, barring some miracle but that wasn't always the case. If some of those illnesses had been diagnosed earlier or treated more effectively, it might have helped. 
We haven't completely given up on all ways of making a family but every time I think of trying adoption again, I wonder if I could handle yet another rejection. I've been rejected three times already, on the grounds of my health, which after all, isn't my fault (another thing that makes me scream with rage is all the govt propaganda suggesting that if you're ill it's somehow your fault). I was fit and healthy until the thyroid struck; I used to climb mountains. We're with COTS but we've heard nothing and I suppose there will come a point when I'll be forced to realise that this just isn't going to happen. Haven't quite got there yet, it's a long, slow process. There's what sometimes feels like unending heartbreak coming up from deep inside from time to time, and no, I don't think you really enjoy Xmas without kids, you just make the best of it and concentrate on the positives, time off work, time with your partner, etc. It also helps to remember that what we're being ruthlessly sold by every business and every advertiser is a fantasy, many families fight like hell at Xmas. 
Probably doesn't help you at all, does it? I'm sorry but it is an honest reply. I've been posting on this forum for the last five years, more or less since I was told I would never have children by a nurse on the phone. (She obviously had no training at all in how to deal sensitively with patients!). Writing here helps. Writing in a journal helps, too. So does getting support from the wonderful people on this forum and looking at blogs. There are quite a few out there, unfortunately, this is a cruel fate that has overtaken too many women. You do need to be a little wary of the childless by choice blogs, as their take on things is obviously very different. The fact that you're treating yourself to nice things is good, I just beat myself up, which of course, doesn't help at all! You have to remember that none of this is actually your fault, any more than if you had asthma. I read a really helpful comment on someone's blog a little while again. I can't remember whose blog it was, so I can't link but the comment was 'Sometimes bodies just go wrong.' They do. It's desperately hard to accept but it's the truth. 
Hope something in this extended essay helps a little! Keep talking, that probably helps more than anything. 
Claire, Hellen, Debs, hi!

Have a good weekend, everybody,

Rowanxx


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## Rowan22

Claire, you must have posted about the same time as me. Love the photos, especially the dress! It's beautiful! And the shoes, really quite unusual. 
I still think you should have a wedding ticker! We could count down with you!

Rxx


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## doddyclaire

Rowan - Thanks!  And I do have a ticker!!!  Its small but its there


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## Rowan22

Sorry, I've just seen it! It's my eyes in these glasses!   
How are the preps going? Have you sent the invites out yet?

Rxx


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## doddyclaire

Nope, i've got save the date magnets and not even got them out yet 
Talk about slack!!  LOL!!

Has the sun come out yet your way?  Still damp and dark & mierable here, I may just close the curtains again already!!


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## Nordickat

Those shoes are fab claire!
Had the lights on here all day. It just didn't get light and its warmed up again :-(

Hope you're ok today Libran.


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## Rowan22

It didn't get light here, either, or not until half an hour before the sun went down, when we had all of two bursts of brightness.
I do hate November!   
The washing, of course, is as wet as it was when I hung it on the line but it's going to stay out there because I can't be bothered to deal with it right now!
Went shopping in my local town. No wall to wall Xmas songs yet, thank God but a few shopkeepers have started to hang decs and I noticed an Xmas tree in a window. 
We could list the Xmas songs that we really detest, you know the ones from those greatest xmas songs cds! In my case, I think it's got to be Paul McCartney's 'Christmas Time' and 'A spaceman came travelling'!
What do you make of the other thread? I think I've stopped it dead but I found that fatuous comment from someone who's already got three kids and now wants more a bit too much! Does anyone actually read the disclaimer at the top of this board, I wonder? (I am still fuming, as if you couldn't already tell!)   .

Rxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - i stopped getting upset about posts when an ex-buddy told me to stop being bitter and twisted and that her life was just as hard as mine. That made me realise that there are too many people on here who will only ever be a name and nothing more, and that going through IF doesn't automatically make everyone nice or understanding. (And i'm not bitter or twisted and have never been and also how can somebody compare their life to somebody elses just from a few lines on a signature. And why is top trumping on lifes sadnesses important to anybody - sorry small rant and slight tangent lol). I guess i'm saying rise above the idiots in the world and feel proud not to be one of them. If it does upset you then you can ask for it to be removed. This board is our safe place and if you don't feel that way then its important you fix it. 

I'm still enjoying my painting. We do have a few nice things on the wall as we tend to buy stuff when we travel but this is different, its something i can keep looking at rather than just glance at on the way past.

Libran - i was thinking, which is quite frightening in itself lol, do you know why you were not offered an interview? If not then call them and ask. Is there some way you can get the right experience or do you need course or something? Clearly i have no clue since i don't know what you do or want to do. I doubt there is anything we can do, but can we help at all? Generally my science brain is of no use no anyone, not even me, but I'm happy to try and help. Alternatively I have found another fab cafe and we can do cyber coffee and cake. Everyone is welcome for that of course lol.

Claire - luckily I have seen the ticker and already saved the date already ......... we have to get our gatecrashing coordinated. Hehe, imagine if we did gatecrash, how on earth would you explain knowing us lol. 

Nicky - I hope you are enjoying some puppy love this weekend. And some puppy giggles too.

Lots of love to everyone else too.

When you are asked if you have children, have any of you said 'no we can't'?

I hope we all get some daylight tomorrow.
Klem, katxxx


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## Rowan22

Me too, Kat, about the sunshine but i don't think it's very likely. I've left the wet washing hanging on the wet line and despair of ever getting it dry.  
That particular post has been removed, I noticed and I also noticed other people weren't keen on it, which is reassuring. 
Bitter and twisted, moi?  
Actually yes, if finding it hard to cope with a body that's not worked properly since an almost fatal illness in my early thirties is the criterion, I am bitter and twisted. The fact that it didn't give me children is the icing on the cake, as it were. Having said that, I try to live a life because what's the alternative? And yes, some people do overcome disabilities of all kinds to do something really worthwhile and I admire them. It's really, really difficult, though and I get so fed up with the incredibly restricted diet! Even trying to eat at work events is next to impossible and I feel like a leper because I can't have anything with gluten in it. I also feel like such a nuisance when I have to explain that actually no, it's not a fad, it's a medical condition. 
Also, why if you have three kids of your own and three step kids, do you want anymore, for God's sake?! No, the posting didn't make me feel safe and in fact, I've been smouldering all day. It's like me going on the preggers boards and giving my opinion of how to cope with morning sickness! Having said that, I do realise that this is a massive overreaction  but I am still menstruating, which never helps (why does that bit work when the other bit doesn't?!). Anyway, it's gone now. I realise it was probably just an attempt to lighten the mood but that disclaimer is on this board for a reason. I value this board, it's about the only place where I can express what I'm feeling and know people will understand. 
Debs, if you're reading, what do you make of it all?
Nicky, agree about the puppy love! How is the puppy now?
Libran, I think Kat's right, is there anyway you can email and ask for feedback? Would that help or would you prefer just to forget it? Is there anything else in the pipeline? I hope you're having a reasonable weekend, despite the lousy weather. 
Kat, I just say, 'No, we tried for eight years'. That tends to shut people up. Especially if they tried for six months and thought _that_ was a long time! Sometimes, I go on to change the subject. What I find very hard is meeting new people, especially work colleagues, who have three or more. I can't help feeling the stab of pain, followed by the grinding teeth and the thought that it's so unfair and of course, I have to continue the conversation with scarcely a pause. Politeness is a wonderful thing, some of the time. 
I hope it stays dry and there's some brightness tomorrow. Getting outside always helps, I find. No snow, Kat?

Rxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan. Its not an over reaction at all. Its the reaction of someone who hurts and thats very different. Actually I think its more like you going on the baby loss board and lightening the mood there. There are a few very sensitive boards on FF and its not our place to go into those other boards and start posting as if we understand - thats why the boards are divided up as they are. Sadly not everyone has empathy, but now you are safely back with people who do care and who do understand. I don´t know how it feels to be in your shoes at all but my sister does. She has a very severe auto-immune disorder and she can´t eat, diary, gluten, some beers, lamb, corn, certain E numbers, well the list goes on and on. Eating too much of the wrong stuff results in hospital as a worst case but easily a week off work. I know how restrictive it is   . She has an advantage over you though in that she hasn´t been interested in starting a family up to now which is lucky as her medication is not compatible with pregnancy. They have toyed with the idea of trying to come of the meds recently and thinking about trying for a family but now they are emigrating I´m not sure what they´ll do. I don´t know how it feels to be you, but I have seen my sister in many a battle.

I asked about the telling people about IF because I´m in the process of making a new friend (very rare for this to happen in Norway!). I know she has kids but only because she told me it was tricky to explain that just because the dog eats dead frogs doesn´t mean they should   . I´m guessing they are young ......... or maybe just very weird! But thinking about it, she has seen us out by our car packing to go away so she probably already knows. Our friendship is based on our dogs so we are going to walk them together one night this week I think. I was thinking that if she asks I´ll just say `no we can´t have them but we have chickens and bees instead´ and see what happens. I don´t want it to be turned into a big issue (Norwegian women are very gushing in their sympathy and concern) but I sort of want to test out being honest.

The temperature rose by 10 degrees so no snow left, just rain rain rain. Plenty of the white stuff in the mountains though   

Hang in there Rowan, 
Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - Pretty much everyone in our universe knows about our tx's, we both found it easier to explain upfront, and it certainly helped explain away all the moods and time off work etc, so as to explaining your gatecrashing - simples 
I did have one colleague who didn't know, and he asked me when we were starting a family....it took my breath away fr a few minutes and then I just said we'd had three failed rounds and it wasn't meant to be, that does tend to shut them up a bit!
Good luck with the new friend honey 

Rowan - big  

Sun's out   Am supposed to be driving DF to Lakeside to look at a new car for him, hopefully we can squeak in an IKEA visit!


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## Libran

Claire - what a fab pair of wedding shoes.  They are veritable skyscrapers, aren't they ?!  And the dress is beautiful too.  Love the colour scheme.  Sure you are going to look stunning.  Hope you manage to buy something lovely in IKEA.
Kat - thanks so much for your advice.  Now I have got over the initial hurt, I know that the only logical / sensible thing to do is to ask for feedback.  Without wanting to bore you stupid with all the career details, I've previously been a Legal Executive but now looking for a career change and decided I would like to work for a charity.  The role was mainly administrative - so, given that I've run a casload of about 100 plus files in the past, nothing I couldn't handle.  However, I don't tick the "I've previously worked for a charity before" box, and my suspicion is this is where I fell down. Sadly, the job market is so competitive these days, you have to fit very narrow critera, and employers don't seem to understand the concept of transferrable skills.  In answer to your question about what / when to reveal about TX and IF to new friends, there is clearly no set script.  I would be wary of introducing the concept too soon, as you don't want to give your new friend the impression that IF is ALL that defines you.  Also, remember that there are bound to be things in her life / background that she may well not be revealing straight away.  However, you obviously need to answer, as honestly as possible, any questions that come up.  Let the friendship develop organically, and just see what happens.  You will know when the time is right.  Incidentally, I made an amazing group of 3 friends through dog walking.  For about 5 years, we used to all walk our dogs together every morning for an hour.  They all had children, but these ladies, whilst incredibly young at heart, were all about 10 - 15 years older than me, so their children were more or less grown up and not their primary focus.  Sadly, DH and I had to move away cos of DH's job.  I miss them so much, and I think that part of the reason I am finding life tough at the moment is because I miss their support.  Hope to see them again at christmas.  Anyway, I'm rambling, but the point I'm making is that fantastic friendships can be formed over dog walks.  Glad you're still enjoying your painting    Tell me more about the cyber cafe - not sure I understand ?
Rowan, your diet does sound incredibly restrictive and I can only sympathise.  I very often hit the chocolate on bad days, and I know that this simply isn't an option for you.  Is your blood sugar well controlled ?  Did you manage to meet the PhD supervisor this weekend ?  I've found such comfort in reading Silent Sorority.  You are right - it is refreshing to find a book of this ilk that doesn't have the "after 15 years of trying, she finally ended up with her miracle baby" hollywood style ending.  Her main theme appears to be that ladies, such as ourselves, suffering from IF do not make our voices heard in society at large.  Couldn't agree more.  
Nicky - hope you are OK and   
XXX


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## NickyRich

Hi all, am sneaking on here when I should be cleaning the bathroom!! Went to the NEC yesterday to the craft show and the cake show-had a fab time and spent a fortune!!! Shattered today but trying to get the house clean ready for the week ahead! Izzy can climb the stairs now-she is so proud of herself!! Hubby is absolutely in love with her! Can't go a few days without visiting!!! Haha!! 
Well, have taken the bull by the horns today and text my colleague who has just had a baby to explain why I won't be visiting with the other girls this week. I didn't want to think I was being funny so decided to tell her the truth. Am glad I have done that, rather than forcing myself to visit to save face! Now, going to text my cousin to explain why I haven't text before to congratulate her! *Kat*-I have started to reply to the children question with 'sadly not' or 'unfortunately, we haven't been lucky there'. It does stop them asking!!!! WIll do personals later-the bathroom is calling! It's my b/day on Wednesday and so we will prob have a couple of visitors so need to make sure house is clean!!

LOve and hugs to you all xxxxxxxxx


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## Flow13

Hi all, hope you don't mind if I join (my signature explains is all).   
I go to a slimming club and 2 weeks ago someone announced she was expecting (great for her, but you all know what its like when you hear that announcement from someone).  So last week I didn't go, and this week i have decided to go to an earlier session, just so I can avoid it all in group.  I feel like a coward, but right now I think I just want to remove myself from situations like that. We are getting on with our lives, and I am coming to terms with everything, so I just want to stay positive.
I have posted on the christmas thread, as we have planned our christmas around us this year, as my stepchildren are with their mom.. So looking forward to that. 
Hope you are all ok. xxx


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## Emziola

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for your replies, I found them really helpful.

Sorry for lack of personals I'm mad busy at work at the mo and I was working over the weekend, so haven't had the chance to get on here much.  DH has manflu too and was in bed when I got home from work so I'm in the middle of cooking too   

Kat - Yes we did chat on the 'veteran barbies' thread I think but I found it really fast moving and couldn't keep up!  Glad your painting is bringing you some happiness, I haven't heard of him so will have a quick google.  Wish I could ski - that is one thing I've said to DH we should do now - as soon as we have some money!

Libran - Sorry about the letter    Hope your week off helps x

Rowan - Thanks for being so honest, I much prefer people to tell me how it is.  Sorry to hear about the adoption.  Talk about kick someone while they're down   

Claire - Loving your wedding pics.  I am a wedding organiser, so if you want any tips   

Flow - Welcome to the thread.  I only joined last week, so I am a newby too.  Don't feel like a coward for changing classes, you have to get through this the best way you can   

In the middle of my second AF - a day after my first one stopped    - the clinic have booked me in for a scan on Weds to hopefully see what is occuring. 

Hi to anyone I've missed - best go and rescue my lasagne!!

Emz xx


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## Nordickat

Hello and welcome Flow. I think self preservation is vital so changing classes seems brave and not cowardly   


Emz - the multiple BFN thread just turned into another Serum thread and I got bored of the ´go to Serum you´ll get a BFP´ talk, and all my old buddies moved on to pastures new. I´m much happier here though. I hope your DH has avoided death although I imagine it was a close shave for a while. Manflu is such a nasty bug apparently   


Nicky - its best just to bite the bullet and be honest sometimes I think. And I think its braver to do that than to just force heartache on yourself and visit and pretend.


Libran - I get so frustrated with people not understanding transferable skills. I recently lost a battle at work because my boss doesn´t get it at all and will now employ another mistake. I´m not sure what to suggest other than some voluntary work to ensure you can tick that box although I know its not that easy to find the right voluntary role   


Claire - I hope you survived Ikea. It takes me weeks to work up to a visit there and even then I can only cope with a late night visit.


Hi Rowan and Debs. Hope you are both OK? 


Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Hello - sad news from me i'm afraid, my beautiful boycat has been diagnosed with heart disease and kidney failure, he's on meds to help him be comfy but estimations are around a month max before he shuffles off into the next world  
To say I am devastated is an understatement, i've had him 14 years, and I know he's been poorly, just didn't really expect this


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## Rowan22

Oh Claire, I am sorry to hear that! We have three cats and they mean a lot to us, especially as we lost our old two earlier this year. One of them died at home, which was fairly traumatic, though we made sure she didn't suffer and in the end she just stopped breathing. That was cancer. The other had leukemia and she had to go to the vet on her last day. I don't know which is worse. 
It's horrible, isn't it? They really do leave pawprints on our hearts. I am thinking of you.   
Hi, Flow. I agree with Kat, at this stage you really do need to do what you need to do. Put your own needs first, at least for awhile. 
Libran, is it possible to do a bit of voluntary work at a charity if you want to take that route? It is so annoying how everything seems to boil down to a box ticking exercise, I've seen it over and over again! Did you get any feedback, in the end? I agree about the author of Silent Sorority. She is one strong lady!
Emz, how did your scan go today?
Nicky, I think you're absolutely right not to go to see the new baby. Again, it's all about self preservation, isn't it? You need to do what's right for you and what you feel you can cope with. I wouldn't be going, I have to say, though I find babies easier than toddlers. 
Kat, I keep an eye on that BFN thread, though I don't post as it's not relevant to me but I have noticed that most of them have moved on, in one way or another. There are a lot of newbies now. I agree about this Penny in Serum business. I suppose if it's worked for them, they will be pushing it but it's certainly not an option for us. Also, it does amaze me that there seem to be so many obstacles in the way of some people getting pg and they end up having womb scratches and powerful anti immune system drugs and God knows what else when other people eat the wrong things, smoke, drink, never have regular periods, have cists etc and conceive at the drop of a hat! I think there's still too much that medicine doesn't know about this whole area. 
I am busy with work, which is probably a good thing. My dh still hasn't got any (sigh!). He had a day's work on Monday and that's it so far this week. I just wish he would actually start looking for something else, as opposed to browing the job section of the local paper and never getting any further! 
I notice that the problem with the other thread has disappeared!  

Take care, everybody,

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Oh claire i'm so sorry about your poor cat xxx :-(


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## NickyRich

Hi girls-what a manic week this week!!  Have been busy every night so far!!  Forced myself to go for a swim on MOnday on my way home from work-so disappointed with my fitness levels!  Need to build back up to doing my mile (64 lengths) as I only managed 40!  At my fittest, I was doing 100!  Need to shift my backside again!!  Made cakes on Monday night, decorated them Tuesday and ate them today as it is my birthday!  Took them to work-the girls were thrilled!  Going out for a meal tonight with the family so skiving off slimming!  

Aw Claire-huge hugs!!  No wonder you are devastated    so sad xxxxxxxxx

So sorry it's another short one-have to iron clothes and get ready for tonight!!!!
Love and hugs to you all!!!


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## Libran

Nikki  many congratulations on your birthday, and I hope you had a great evening out with the family. It's fine to blow the diet just this once, and the cakes you made sound yummy ! You certainly deserve a wonderful evening.
Claire - so, so sorry to hear about your poor cat. When we don't have children, we make such a strong, emotional investment in our animals, and it hurts like hell when they are ill.  to you. I'm afraid words can't make it better, but, having lost a dog previously to ill health in very traumatic circumstances, I certainly understand what you're going through. 
Rowan - I'm now into reading Pamela M T's blog. It's called It's fascinating reading. There is a section where people post the most "mommy-centric" comment of the week. Maybe we should do something similar here ! Bad news about your DH and work. Could he perhaps do any private tutoring ? I know a number of good web-sites he could register with. I used to get a couple of hours work a week from some of them. Was ad hoc, but, if he is prone to stress, not a bad option as you are not tied in or committed to the work.
Kat - are you still enjoying your beautiful painting ? Did you meet your new friend for a dog walk ? What (if anything) did you decide to disclose ? Is it still a winter wonderland in Norway ? It's just cold and grey here and would be far better if we had some proper, decent snow.
Welcome Emziola. Hope the lasagne was unscathed. Good luck with the scan.
Welcome Flow - don't feel bad about the slimming group. I've recently logged on to www.nutracheck.co. uk. It's a fab site, allows me to calorie count, and I don't have to face a group. 
Have a good day, everyone XXX


----------



## skypod

Hello, can I join you all?

I'm not exactly new to FF, but have decided I needed to get away from my old user name and long list of stuff in the signature (couldn't face logging in with it) and try and start afresh with a new name, since I'm trying to deal with a new and unexpected path in life. 

We've sadly reached the end of our treatment road and I'm trying to deal with it, but failing somewhat at the moment. Few people knew we were trying and even fewer know the current state of things and with the run up to Christmas and the emphasis on children and family, it seems to be hitting me harder all of a sudden. I've read the Christmas thread and found it really useful and am trying to see the positive in our situation, but with everyone around me having children of their own, it's not easy.


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## doddyclaire

Thanks for all your hugs girls 

Hi Skypod, welcome along 

Kat - The IKEA trip was ok, got a couple of weddingy bits, a new wok and other toot, it was packed though, and loads of LO's running around getting underfoot    stopped off on the way back for THE most mammoth roast dinner!

Emziola - Thanks for the offer!  I think we've sorted all the main bits, just awaiting dates from Kat & Libran as to when they will be food testing for me     Hope you're ok.

Rowan - Long shot but does your local argos (if you have one) advertise in their shop window?  Ours does at this time of year for warehouse staff, worth a shot?

Nicky - Happy birthday for yesterday, hope you had a lovely famalam meal out 

Libran - The blog name is missing.... I was going to give it a look!


Thanks for all your kind words re puss, he's hanging in there although we didn't think he'd survive the night, he came charging out for his brekkie this morning!  We are going ahead with our weekend away, Mum is on cat-nurse duties for the weekend so I know he's in safe hands, and she won't let me know if anything happens over the weekend so we can try and enjoy it 
So....hope you have a lovely weekend girls, I won't be online until Monday  - sounds bliss!!  LOL!!
xx


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## Nordickat

Happy belated birthday Nicky.
Welcome to our little group Skypod.
Enjoy your weekend away Claire.
Hi everyone else.

Its 3 years since my loss today and its harder than I thought. I decided to come to work to a meeting as a distraction and found the banana plants I bought in memory of my babies has died. I'm trying super hard not to cry since everyone would think I was proper bonkers crying because my banana plants have died. It makes it all seem so final though and I'm very sad. Heading to the UK tomorrow to say goodbye to my sister before she moves to Australia and I'm feeling a bit pathetic about it all to be honest   . I'm sure filling my suitcase with mince pies will cheer me up though.

Love to you all, 
Katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - Biggest of squeezes winging their way to you, nothing I can say about the banana plants 
Have a safe journey over, and I hope you have a fab "going away" time with your sis xxxxxxxx


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## Rowan22

Ncky, belated birthday congrats!   Hope you had a great day!
Kat, I am so sorry about the banana plants. I can't imagine how you felt as you bought them as a memory of the babies you've lost. As you say, it's so hard to hold on to your feelings in that type of situation, as people just won't understand why you're crying over dead plants. Hugs   We're thinking of you. These anniversaries are hard enough at the best of times. 
I hope you're enjoying the meet up with your sister and having a good time. It sounds like it might be quite awhile before you see her again. 
Claire, I love Ikea but I spend much too much money ('oh, look at that cute like cabinet, gotta have that!'  ) and there isn't one close to us, which is perhaps just as well! Know what you mean about the rug rats, it is amazing how people just let them run around all over the store these days. Since when did shops become playgrounds? How's your cat now?
I am still hoping that my dh might find some work. The phone rang this morning but he missed it as he was in the bathroom!   Obvious answer is to take it into the bathroom with him but he didn't (sigh!). 
Hi Skypod, welcome!   
What are you all doing about Christmas? It's now five weeks away, so even I can't ignore it any longer. I have family to buy pressies for. Most of my shopping will probably be done on the internet, though. 

Take care, all,

Rowanxxx


----------



## Libran

Hi All
Kat - words seem completely inadequate when trying to express sorrow for the anniversary of your loss (last week) and in offering you comfort.  All I can do is send a massive    I hope you are being kind to yourself and not taking on too much.  How was the weekend with your sister ?
Claire - the website is Silent Sorority.  Click on the link to the blog which is called A Fresh Start.  How was your weekend away.  How is cat today ?
Rowan - you really need to sit down and have a serious heart to heart with your DH about work and money.  It is unfair that you are shouldering so much alone.  I understand that due to ill health he can't work 100% flat out, but, surely, there must be other avenues that you could explore together to raise more income.  Yep, christmas is fast approaching and I can't ignore it any more either, much as I would love to.  I really can't be bothered to do anything.  Not even sure if DH and I will buy each other gifts.  I'm thinking of curry for christmas dinner ....!!!
Welcome Skypod, it's always great to see new faces.
Nicky - how are you doing ?  Looking forward to hearing about your birthday celebrations.
XXX


----------



## Flow13

Thank you for the welcome    
I went to the earlier slimming group last week and just got weighed. And to be honest I missed my normal group.  I have become close to one of the ladies there, and it felt strange not seeing her. I also gained last week.   I keep using IF and feeling rubbish as a reason why I am doing pants at slimming.  But I know I need to get myself together.  So I am going back to normal tomorrow night, and..........my dh is joing too. So I feel much happier about everything.   

Hope you are all ok. xxx


----------



## doddyclaire

Hey pretty ladies 

Kat - Hope your visit with your Sis went ok, has she left now for life on the "other side"?!  Think of all the fab holidays you can have down under!!  Hope the mince pies have stoppered an emosh hole for the time being - one good thing about xmas, all the bad food is in the shops for weeks!

Rowan - I'm with Libran there, you need to have a serious chat, or bash him over the head with the phone?!

Libran - thanks lovely, i'll google it later, hope you're ok  

So we're back, and old puss is still hanging in there, in fact he seems better than when we went away so his meds must be doing some good!  Had a fab time in Laaaaandan town, The Killers were AMAZING!!  Did London Zoo on Saturday followed by a mooch around Camden Market, then Ideal Home Xmas yesterday - LOTS of alcohol to sample, welll.....someone had to   hehe!
xxx


----------



## Rowan22

How is everybody?

I am snowed under with work this week but at least it keeps me busy and stops me brooding too much. 
Claire, that's great news about your Tom, I hope he continues to make progress. It sounds like you had a great weekend!   I bet the market was fabulous, London markets usually are. 
Kat, how are things? Did you see your sister off to Australia?
Libran, how are you doing? I've often visited Silent Sorority, it's a good website. 
Flow, well done on trying to lose weight. It's something I should do, it would help all the medical issues I've got but I just can't be bothered. Anyway, every time I try I feel so hungry all the time and lose about an ounce, if I'm lucky. Also, being diabetic, I can't just miss meals. 
My dh has a day's work today, so that's something. I am worrying about how we're going to afford Christmas, as I do have family I have to buy pressies for. At the moment, we manage to pay the rent and the bills and eat and that's it. I'm not knocking this, I've been in circumstances where I've found it impossible to both eat and heat the place I'm living in, but it would be nice to have a bit extra. 
How are your weeks going?

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Hello everyone ((((hugs))))

I'm reading and thinking of you all but I'm emotionally drained at the moment and just can't seem to find any words for any of you just now. It doesn't mean I don't care I promise and I am sending the right vibes to you.

Be back soon.
Love, katxxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - Bucket loads of squeezes coming your way  , you know the score - one day at a time, and don't worry about not posting!!  

Rowan - I really hope your DH manages to get some more work, Xmas can be such a difficult time already without worrying whether you can eat well enough 

Hope you're all ok, big hugs to everyone xxx


----------



## NickyRich

Hi all, sorry I have not been on here for ages-this week has been mad! It was our craft fayre in work on Thursday and on top of preparing stuff for my own stall, I made 84 cupcakes for school to sell! Have also been struck down with a dreadful cold, bad chest and earache! Has been a struggle to get to work all week! Had 18 children away with it yesterday just in my class! Still really bunged up and have an annpying cough but feeling better day by day. Went to a craft fayre in my local town-an outdoor event. The weather was absolutely horrendous-so glad ours was indoors!!!  Have almost finished my xmas shopping-thank goodness! Have two night outs coming up which I am looking forward to.
Had my follow up appointment with the consultant and they are treating me as a having recurring miscarriages. They feel there is a problem with implantation. Didn't get as upset as I expected which was good!

*Kat*-huge hugs coming your way xxxx look after yourself hun xxxxx
*Claire*-so glad your puss cat is getting on ok. SOunds like you had a fab time in London xxx
*rowan*-any luck with your DH and a job? Must be so hard for you!! 
*Flow*-I need to pull my finger out with my slimming journey!! Have become complacent!! Hope you are doing ok xx
*Skypod*-welcome hun xxxx

Was proud of myself this week. The colleague who has just had a baby came to the craft fayre and I made a fuss of him-from a distance as I had the 'lurgy'. It was lucky I had it though as I could 'avoid' a nurse-certainly wasn't up to that!

Off to have a relax in the bath before watching a film (more like dozing on the settee!!)
Huge    to you all xxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Nordickat

Hello everyone!


Rowan - is it absolutely necessary to buy presents for everyone? Can you have a present free year at all? There must be lots of people who would be relieved if you suggested skipping gifts this year?
Claire - I´m very jealous you saw The Killers. I´ve heard that they are one of the all time best lives bands to see. I hope old puss is still battling on?
Flow - how was it going back to your normal class? I think its important we try as hard as we can not to isolate ourselves too much so I´m glad you are going back to your normal class and I hope you had enough to chat about that your didn´t even hear the baby talk.
Nicky - I hope you are tip top again now?
Libran - I can´t be bothered with christmas either. DH and I aren´t doing gifts as I can´t face the shops and I just can´t muster any inspiration. I was briefly enthusiastic but that faded quickly lol.
Hi Skypod, Emz and Debs.


It was nice to see my sister but I know I was no fun to be with. I can´t just shake my black cloud. Pooch is having his op on 11th December and I´m really worried   . I´ve been signed off sick for the rest of the year    and I´m generally feeling a bit of a failure about it all. Lost my mojo I think.


Love to you all, 
Katxxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Kat, it would be nice if we could forget presents this year but I've already had 'the list' from various family members! The only consolation is that I'll be doing most of my shopping online. For those things that you do have to get from the shops, I've already planned to go midweek and before about 3pm, if at all possible. I'm also staying well away from malls! I think they really do try to appeal to kids in the big run up to the holiday and they're far too hot and crowded, anyway.
How are you doing?  Are you relieved that you've been signed off work? I have to admit that sometimes I find work is the only thing that keeps me functioning at all, I know it _has_ to be done and it forces me to use my mind. Otherwise, I watch it spiralling downwards - and it can go down for miles!
I found out today that the latest health problem is under control so in theory, there's nothing to stop us having the one go at IVF, though it would be in the New Year now, obviously. The question I'm facing is do I _want_ to do it? Of course, if I knew it would succeed that would be a no brainer but I don't. No clinic in the country can guarantee that it will work first time and for us, there is only that first time. My dh is adament that we simply can't afford any more tries. (Though if he could get more work it would help!). I know that if it does fail, I will really crash and burn and as far as the grieving process is concerned, I'll be back to the start, with days of sobbing in agony. The problem is that if I don't at least try I will always be left wondering if it could have worked. We haven't heard anything about the surrogate option. We keep hoping that somebody might take an interest in us but so far, nothing. 
Claire, how's your Tom? I hope he's comfortable. 
Nicky, I'm impressed by the cupcakes! Well done to you for fussing over the baby, I run a mile in the opposite direction! Can the clinic do anything about the fact that the embies won't implant or are they saying it's all down to luck, as usual?
Libran, Flow, Skypod, Emz and Debs, how are you? Hope you had good weekends.
Take care everyone,

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

A list already    ...... just make sure your list is longer is all I can suggest. Good move on the internet shopping too, it means you can get the cheapest prices as well as remain stress free. And great news about the health check though   


Sadly work isn´t an option really even if I stubbornly keep trying it ....... they will probably ban me from the building soon lol. My GP didn´t help earlier today even though he thought he was saying the right thing. I was beating myself up about not being able to work and he said he had several patients who didn´t work for 4 years after a breakdown and hospitalisation    . Please don´t let that be me   . I need simple calming things to do like knitting to distract me. I am actually going away tomorrow for work (breaking all the rules   ) and I have the shakes already at the thought. Anxiety meds are packed though so fingers crossed I come home unscathed.


----------



## Debs

Remember me  

I am sorry girls - I just needed some time to get rid of the issues going on in my head - not that ive totally got rid of them but they are at least at the back of my head instead of being constantly in my face   so thats a start    I wont write them up on here - we touched on it a few pages back but to be honest the thought of writing it down will only make me bring it back to the front so im gonna zip it for the minute   

Seems like a few of you could do with some    We arent approaching the easiest of seasons but we will get through it - one way or another    

Nordikat good luck for your trip away - remember if it gets too much then just escape somewhere and catch your breath - you are doing brilliantly to go so that deserves a pat on the back! x

Rowan - your head must be spinning re tx    Hope you come to a decision soon or hear regarding surrogacy x

Nickyrach - hope you feeling a bit better now?  *Ive had each ache for the past 2 weeks been back to dr today and copped another 2 prescriptions for it - cant afford to be ill these days!!! x

Clare - glad you enjoyed London - we are off there a week Friday for a long weekend so am busy looking at the touristy things to do   

Flow - welcome to the group and good luck for the slimming.  I lost 2 stone earlier this year - but have put one back on   so im back on MFP to try and loose it again but with it being xmas its not easy is it  

Skypod- welcome to the group too.  As nice as it is to have new members to chat to its always sad that any of us are on these boards at all    

Anyway as I say we are off to London soon which I am looking forward to although ive got to persuade Mark (dh) to go shopping    Ive done pretty well on the present buying side of xmas and online shopping is a Godsend!  

Right I better get of here and do a few bits before Jungle is on - am loving this series Ant & Dec make me howl!

Take care everyone.

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## Libran

Hi !
Not having the best of weeks.  DH is an only child and is very close to his cousin (nearest thing to a brother that DH has).  Anyway, cousin and wife are expecting their first child any day now.  DH and I have been through worse, but, for some reason, I'm finding this incredibly difficult.  We were out walking the dog at the weekend, and DH started going on about having to organise card / present / flowers this week ready for when baby arrives.  Then, DH let slip that he knew the baby is going to be a girl.  Obviously, logic tells me that it makes not a blind bit of differenc whether the baby is a boy or a girl, but I was so indescribably hurt that DH had kept this from me.  I got cross, and then DH gave me a lecture on how I wasn't going to isolate him from his own family in the same way that I've isolated myself from mine.  
Kat - I'm sorry to hear that you've been signed off sick, but maybe it is for the best.  Don't try to run before you can walk.  I hope you manage to get through your trip away.
Rowan - I would be tempted to put those present lists straight in the bin.  I absolutely refuse to write present lists - we didn't even have a wedding list - on the grounds that I strongly believe a present should be "given" to you from the heart, not something that is requested.  On line shopping is good, though, isn't it !  Rowan, I can see your dilemna re TX.  On the one hand, I would urge you to try, as living with regret is so awful.  On the other hand, if you seriously believe that it is better to leave it as a closed door, then I would sympathise with that too.
Debs - good to hear from you.  You are right, christmas is soooo tough, but I am trying to focus on the fact that although I'm struggling with christmas ads etc etc at the moment, IT WILL END.
 to Nikki and Flow.  I'm afraid any ideas of weight loss have gone straight down the pan this week.  There's too much going on in my head, and I've discovered Tescos luxury mince pies XXX


----------



## Emziola

Hey ladies,

Sorry for going MIA, have had lots to deal with at work and generally haven't had the time to get on here.


DH and I had a bonfire at the weekend and burnt all of our fertility related paperwork - proper closure eh!


Claire - I'm sorry to read about your cat     


Rowan - I didn't have the scan in the end, the bleeding died down.  I have my FU next Friday though, not really sure why I'm going, just to say goodbye I suppose.  Hope DH has some more luck with work soon.


Kat - Hope you get your mojo back soon.  I've started to write a diary, I'm finding that it helps.  Who knows, maybe I'll publish it one day and be filthy rich    Have you got any plans while you are off?  Have you tried yoga?


Nicky - Well done at the craft fayre with your colleague.  I've yet to come face to face with the challenge.  Haven't even started my xmas shopping yet but I've made a list - does that count?   


Hi to everyone I've missed.  I've got to go as I've got someone coming round to view our flat.....we may be moving too.  New start all round me thinks.


Big hugs to you all  


Emz xx


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## Nordickat

This is my yoga routine Emz ;-)






Love and hugs. I was up at 4am for my flight and i'm too tired to post more.


----------



## doddyclaire

Kat - I love it!!!


----------



## Rowan22

Kat, hope you have a good time when you've recovered from the flight. I'll look at that link tomorrow, when I'm not so tired. I did used to go to a yoga class but it stopped.
Emz, like the idea of the bonfire, yes, there's something very appropriate about that, isn't there?
Good luck with selling the house!
Libran, horrible situation, isn't it? Bad enough when it's a friend but at least you can distance yourself from friends, it's much harder when it's in the close family. Have you explained to your husband that you're not trying to isolate him from anybody, it's just that it hurts so much? Can he go and visit on his own or would that make you feel worse? The mince pies sound like a good option right now!
Debs, have a great time in London. Wonderful place for shopping but expensive, I find!   
Hi to everybody else, hope you're all OK.
I'm still busy with work, which is just as well as I'm struggling with another period from hell. I don't know why the IF and childlessness hurts so much more at this time of the month, though I am tired and achy, of course. I suppose it's just that it's all this womb's ever done, ache and bleed, for forty years. That's it. There are times when I wish I'd had it removed at birth. 
Ah well, hopefully it will be a bit better tomorrow.
Take care everyone,

Rxxx


----------



## Nordickat

I was asleep by 9pm so I'm a new woman today   

Debs  I'm not sure how we are supposed to exorcise the feelings of life passing us by, being old before our time and not knowing what the future holds. Maybe that is the definition of 'moved on'? Maybe we just have to be patient and let the grief run its course. Thinking of you though and at least you know you are not alone   

Libran  to you too. DH not telling you it was a girl is a good thing. Its no big deal, its not a big secret that he kept hidden or anything. He just didn't mention it because it would hurt you. Why would he hurt you on purpose when he can do one small thing to protect you a little longer? Imagining the baby as a little girl is more painful than just imagining it as a baby blob. I really do hope that the anticipation is worse than the actual event. 

Emz - Intensive therapy is my plan for my time off (after a week in The Azores next week   ) so not exactly fun and exciting lol. Your bonfire sounds very cleansing on what with a new house too, maybe 2013 will be a great new year for you.

Rowan   I hope today is brighter   

 to everyone else.

Meeting time and a presentation .......... I've bitten off more than I can chew this time  
Katxxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hope the meeting went OK, Kat. The week in the Azores sounds wonderful, especially as we've had day after day of heavy rain and grey skies for what feels like weeks. At least we're not flooded too much in this part of the country, though there's water lying on some of the fields and I was driving through some deep puddles yesterday. 
Do any of you find that some days and weeks are worse than others? I find the deepest emotions and most uncontrollable thoughts about this IF coincide with my period, which I suppose isn't surprising but I don't know how to cope with it. The emotions become really intense and I struggle to cope with them well enough even to get work done. At the moment, I'm feeling like the kid with her nose pressed against the window watching everybody else play happy families around the Christmas tree, especially with the unending barrage of ads I have to sit through every time I watch TV. This is only going to get worse, as we still have four weeks and a bit to go to the big day! I can't stop the unending negative thoughts and it all bleeds into the anger I feel with my body, as it's been sick so much. The latest issue is under control, yes but only if I never eat bread again for the rest of my life!
I don't know why I've been so ill so much and at times I find myself thinking the most irrational thoughts, that I'm cursed and all that sort of thing. 
If anybody has any words of wisdom I'd really appreciate them this morning!
By the way, have you noticed that about the only ad that features adults only enjoying themselves at Xmas is that one for chocolates? The family theme is really monotonous and unending. (I don't actually watch that much TV, in case you're wondering but my dh has it on most of the time when he's at home!)

Rowanxx


----------



## rachel petch

Oh Rowan

I'm totally in a similar place at the moment, we did our last cycle back in Aug, otd was 16 Sept. I decided that I would take a teaching/assessors course, to take my mind off stuff........ Big mistake, really, I just feel so useless and incompetent!! Scared, oh a whole host of feelings! I ve been having reiki once a fortnight for relaxation purposes.
I totally get the whole kid with her nose pressed against the window, I am her too. Then on the other hand, I heard a Kid screaming on the tv last night, and said god I'm glad I ll never have to listen to that!, how do ya rationalise that !!!!! If you need to talk you can pm me hunny!!! Xxx


----------



## Rowan22

Rachel, thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry you've had such a rough time lately.   One of the reasons I'm so hesitant about trying our one and only cycle of de IVF is because I don't know how I would cope if it fails. It seems to me that they fail rather a lot. I'm afraid I'd fall back into the pit and I'd never get out. 
How is the course going? I've been advised to start a research degree for work but though it's something I've always wanted to do, at the moment I can't even get a proposal together to start the ball rolling. I just keep thinking I wanted to do something else instead at this time of my life, have kids and my body just won't co-operate. I do have quite a few illnesses but of course the biggest problem now is age and nothing can change that. 
I'm with you on the whole host of feelings and none of them are very nice to feel or easy to deal with!
I can't understand why the cycle just won't stop when it all seems so utterly pointless. I've always had painful heavy periods but of course, they now hurt even more on a psychological level. I should be menopausal but oh no, the wheel just keeps trundling on. I don't understand this body. When I was a kid I was taught some degree of control over it, as we all were, but after I was critically ill in my thirties I realised who was really in charge and it wasn't me. My innocence about health etc died the day I was rushed into hospital. And I'd always had a reasonably healthly lifestyle, plenty of exercise, veggie, never smoked, rarely drank, etc, etc, etc. It's hard to see smoking, drinking teenagers who live off chocolates and crisps getting pg with absolutely no probs at all.  It's even harder that they have their health despite the abuse they're heaping on their bodies and mine is lost, permanently. At times I feel very angry and bitter, not nice feelings. And they have nowhere to go. 
Does reiki help? I used to have regular sessions a few years ago. It was relaxing and helped me sleep but I don't know if it had any other benefits. 
I hope things brighten up a little for you soon.   

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

Rachel and Rowan (((hugs))) for you both.

Rowan maybe you should go for some counselling. I hate the thought of you suffering with so much anger towards your body. Maybe talking that through it someone might be the first step and then work out the IF thoughts. It's so draining to feel like that all the time and a counsellor might be a good place to vent. There are some that are trained specifically for long term illness work. Worth a try maybe? 

I'm almost out of data again so best log off quick. I've had a long old week but survived although survival today was tough and involved lots of alone time and escaping early to the airport. Anyway, tonight I unpack the dirty pants and pack some clean ones ready for my holiday  Catch up with you all in a week or so. 

Be brave all of you,
Katxxx


----------



## skypod

That's so true about the worst weeks coinciding with periods, Rowan. I've definitely noticed the time around AF is a lot worse.

It's been a bit of a week of pregnancy and babies - people I know giving birth, everyone talking about it and every time I turn on the TV, there's more of it. Then I've heard today that one of my best friends, who's older (in her 40s) and has been 'only' trying for a year is pregnant. I'm of course really happy for her and have sat through a long chat of smiling and saying all the right things, but have had to come home and shed a few (quite a few...a lot of) tears. She's one of the few people who knows my situation and did break the news nicely, but I think some tricky months may be ahead when I have to put my issues to one side and try and enjoy and support her pregnancy.

Ho hum.


----------



## Rowan22

Kat, hope the holiday is going great!   
Skypod, you are absolutely right. I suppose that means it's partly hormonal, the states of blank despair and depression I fall into at this time. I just wish the cycles would stop, they are such a pointless waste of time, heartache and ibuprofen but no, they go chugging round and round, round and round. I did ask a doctor if she could stop them but it seemed it wouldn't be that easy, I'd have to have a coil inserted (aaah!) which would gradually reduce my womb lining. I'm sure there's a contraceptive in the US which means you don't have to have periods for months but it seems it's not available here. 
Well, well, it seems the house of Windsor is expanding. Obviously I hope everything goes OK for William and Kate but I can't help reflecting that they've been married eighteen months and we've been married ten years. Still nothing. 
Does anybody else lie awake at night, just wondering what the hell to do? How are you supposed to 'move on' when this heartache and longing is still gripping your heart? And why is it that some women in their forties do conceive with no probs, despite the 'experts'?
I'm sorry for your situation with your friend, Skypod. It's a difficult one.
How is everybody? Hope you all had good weekends.

Rowanxx


----------



## rachel petch

God, give me strength today! I'm having such a sad ****e time at the minute, I feel so down and every now and then I feel waves of tears pricking, and then I think..... God, Rach, what the hell are you doing.......?.....
I feel like I constantly have this 'happy face' on, even with my husband...... I know that's bad! I must sit him down and try and tell him how I'm feeling, but I just don't know where to start.
I feel such an absolute failure and totally and utterly useless, (I'm in tears as I'm writing this) I signed up to a course about a month ago..... Big mistake, I thought it would take my mind off things and prepare and look to the future, I can't focus on it at all. I feel like screaming "I'm NOT ****ING ALRIGHT, FAR BLOODY FROM IT".
I don't even think it the fact that I'm having to face head on that I ll never be a parent, and no one will ever call me Mum. I think it's the fact I feel I ve done everything possible and can't even manage to become pregnant, and when I did, I could nt hang on to it!
So sorry girls about this really selfish ****ty post. I know I'm not the only one that may feel like this, but today it feels like I am! Xxx


----------



## Rowan22

Rachel, I'm so sorry you're having such a bad day  
About telling your husband how you feel, have you let him read your post? Sometimes it has to be in black and white for them to get it, I think!
I've never been able to hang on to a pregnancy either, so I know how bad_ that _feels. I've always lost them in the very early stages, blighted ovums and chemical pregnancies, too faint even to show on a test. I know about the ovum because I saw the sac (and that wasn't a very pleasant experience). That's the nearest I'll get to birthing a baby, I think.
And it's a bad day anyway with all the media braying over Kate! My dh told me that one newspaper had 13 pages about it. 13 pages, for God's sake! How on earth did they manage to fill all that space!
I hope you're feeling a little better now.
Take care of yourself. 

Rowanxx


----------



## NickyRich

Hi girls, how are you all? Am finding it so hard to find the time to post at the moment!! Xmas in an infant school is manic! The xmas concerts are this week (Friday), Santa's grotto and school trip next week and xmas party the week after! Am still coughing and spluttering-can't seem to shift this cough and cold!! 
Are you all as fed up as me of hearing about the 'royal pregnancy!!' Christ, is there nothing else happening in the world? Am dreading the next 7 months of it all!!! My friend in work is expecting and is starting to show and spends all her time rubbing her stomach! Finding it hard to deal with at the moment! It's the time of the month again-another reminder of how my body has failed me! I start clomid in January, a last ditch attempt-have no expectations of it working! They cannot see a reason why I can't conceive-the problem seems to be implantation. Am expecting blood tests back in January!! 3 frigging months to wait for blood tests! Bet Kate and Wills won't have that long a wait!!!!! 
*Rachel*-big, big hugs hun xxxxxxxxxx my hubby finds it difficult to cope with me, struggling to cope with IF!! He hates seeing me sad but I keep explaining it is a natural way to feel.  

Just a quickie from me-am so tired!!! Big hugs to you all, hope to have more time later in the week! Am puppysitting this weekend for Izzy and Poppy! Can't see much housework being done!!!
Love to you all xxxxx


----------



## doddyclaire

Big hugs all round to you all      

I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time girls, apart from being a grumpy biartch i think i may have turned my corner, no doubt there will be dark days ahead.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## abboswoo

Hey I hope people don't mind me joining. I had my transfer 3  weeks ago and have been off work 4  2  days been throwing up even just drinking water and bad stomach pains low and behold today bleeding loads. Our 5th attempt and I feel the same. Successful job nice house lovely car wonderful husband and I can't even do what our bodies are supposed to do naturally. So not fair. I even had in my head what my child may look like. Nutter. I am at home watching crap tv having the worst stomach pains that pain killers aren't  even touching rant over lol. Feel better. Love Woo.x


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## Nordickat

Massive hugs to you all. I think this is the hardest time of year to try and find positives and a way forwards. Thinking of you all though.
Special hello to woo and I'm glad you found us.
Hi to you too Claire - I have found my pain lessening too and think I've taken a big step in the right direction too. Of course tough days will follow but as long as we hang in there, the good days will get more frequent.

Volcanic spas and whale watching trips might be helping of course, although nowhere near as much as the fact an espresso is 50 cents and a beer only slightly more ............ and oh so much wine and cake to try ;-) 

It will get easier for us all with time xxx


----------



## Rowan22

How is everybody? Woo, hi and welcome to the thread! I hope you're feeling better physically. Thinking of you.   
Kat, the whale watching and volcanoes sound wonderful! I would love to see both! You're right about the time of year and I'm still finding it hard to motivate myself to do anything about Xmas. 
I've just posted a furious reply to that thread on Coping with Infertility about the pesky royal baby! I wish people who have children would not post on these boards! It's not the place for them and they can't know how it feels to be triggered every five minutes by something or other related to children, including this royal pregnancy. Or if they did know, because they were infertile, they've forgotten. 
One of those Australian djs who did the hoax call to the hospital where Kate was being treated said that virtually the first thing she thought, when told about the death of that nurse, was whether or not she was a mother. This has incensed me! It suggests, yet again, that you only have any worth if you are a mum! Nothing else matters, not career, not personality, nothing! Just whether or not your reproductive system has done what it was supposed to do! I am fuming this lunch time! If you're not a mother it seems you can kill yourself and nobody will give a damn!  
Hope you're all in a better place than me!

Rxx


----------



## Nordickat

Oh Rowan I'm sorry you are having such a horrid day. I didn't interpret what the dj said in the same way as you so I'll share what I thought she meant. In my interpretation she didn't put more value on the nurses life because she was a mother, she asked if she was a mother because of the effect of her suicide on her children. Losing your mum when you are young must be horrid but I think losing them to suicide is so confusing and hurtful. It is awful for her husband too but at least his adult brain can deal with it rationally. Maybe I am wrong but that's what I thought she meant and its maybe a less painful interpretation for you to deal with. The nurse must have been in such a sad place to leave her family like that :-(( Sorry, sensitive subject for me as you know :-(

Thankfully I am spared royal baby news though. No whale watching I the end due to fog but good walk instead.

Pooch has his op tomorrow so just going out for our last proper walk for 3 months ........ poor wee man :-((

Love to all,
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Thanks, Kat   

Your interpretation of those comments was certainly a lot less hurtful than mine! I'm sure you're right but today's not been a good day. I am trying to forget the festive season, as we all are but I can't, it's getting too close, my dh is off work with a cold and I think I'm getting it, and I was really annoyed about a posting on the royal baby thread on the other board, a thread I notice has now disappeared! Was it getting 'unpatriotic', I wonder? At times like this, I wonder what it must feel like to live somewhere else!
It's a shame about the whale watching! I would love to do that! I hope your dog's op. goes well and he's taking you out for another walk really soon. You must be right about the poor nurse, there must have been other things going on in her head.  It's a tragic story and I am so sorry for her and her family. 
Take care, everyone.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

I didn't really read the other thread Rowan, maybe it was getting a bit heated. I hope today is better for you. In answer to what it's like living somewhere else, same all [email protected], just different language ;-)

Pups home having been sedated and vet then deciding the metal plate was not quite right. Obviously I'm glad he is a perfectionist but its a tad frustrating. Pupster was such a good boy in the underground for an hour this morning and then sat like an angel in the waiting room watching a woman eat a yoghurt - he loves licking the empty pots out  Now he is just hungover, confused and crying and we have to do the whole thing again next week. Blue sky (-10 though) forecast all week so we can have another few nice walks.

Katxxx


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## Illy

Hi all,


Love to join your chat thread.  I've been on FF usually when I'm down and feel I need support.  I'm not very good with web chat I try to improve, but I'm so glad I'm not on my own. Just reading your stories  help me to cope.
Just realised writing this that 4 years ago my first post was in the Treatment support section - I've probably done all the section from top to bottom   
I always hoped that I wouldn't join the moving on section, not because of you lovely ladies.
I feel I need to move on, but sometimes after I feel I'm doing well there comes a slashback, someone in work (little bit younger than me!) gets pregnant, all the hype about the royal baby (give me a bucket) and christmas adverts.  


Rowan, I'm with you about that people think your only worthy if your a mum.  I've overheard 2 collegues talking about an tragic freak accident where a woman (lawyer) was killed by window falling off a building site.  One woman was saying to the other that the lawyer had done amazing work in developing countries and what a tragic accident, the other was asking if she had children?! When she said 'no, not that makes it any better' the other said, well it kinda makes it better!!!!


I was so furious and upset about that comment, but couldn't say anything cause I was eavesdropping. grrrrr.


Anyway, hope you have a lovely christmas, might write again before. 


xxxx


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## Nordickat

Hi illy and welcome. The thread is a bit quiet at the moment and i suspect there are a few people on here with their heads down focussing on one step at a time to get through Christmas. Are you in the uk? When i first read your post i thought you were from somewhere more exotic but now i've reread, i can't see what made me think that?! 

I'm so tired my eyes are stinging too much to write. Pupster had his op today and it 'went as well as expected'. Sounds a bit non-comital to me but I think that's just the sort of guy the surgeon is. He is staying overnight so they can keep an eye on him and I'll collect him tomorrow afternoon, then the fun begins! If one more person says 'ooh how on earth are you going to get that hyper dog to sit still for 3 months' i swear i'll scream. Its awfully quiet tonight though with no dog and no husband .......... actually its rather nice ;-)

I might not get chance to come back on again before new year so i'll wish you all a happy Christmas now just in case. I really hope all of you find peace in yourselves and happiness within your families.

Love to you all,
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Kat, happy Christmas to you! And I hope it's a good one and you get some decent snowy weather! I suspect it will be wet here. We did have the frost last week but now we've lost it. I really hope your dog is OK and he enjoys resting at home (and so do you!  ).
Illy, hello and welcome! Hope you've found some of the postings on this board helpful. That story is terrible, once again, we women only have value if we reproduce. Isn't it time we challenged that story? Especially as we all know that some women can do the physical side of being a mother but are hopeless once the child actually arrives. We are not useless because our reproductive systems wouldn't work properly! We just have flawed bodies, that's all. 
It's true that this is actually just as hard to come to terms with, in a way, because you can't actually turn in your body for a better, newer model. All you can do is learn to live with it and I find this very hard as I have several chronic illnesses as well as the IF. Having a body that doesn't work properly isn't wonderful but perhaps the worst aspect of it is society's perception, especially in the West. In places like India, people just tend to accept that bodies go wrong and sometimes the illnesses can't be cured. Buddhist thought is actually rather helpful about all this. 
Kat's right, I haven't been on here much, partly because I haven't been well but also because I'm trying not to think too much about next week and everything that goes with next week. I will be glad when it's all over and I suspect most people on this thread feel the same way. At the same time, it's our Christmas, too and we should try to get something out of it. If that means spending three days on the booze does that really matter? At least that way you can't feel your feelings too much. 
I have problems getting to see family members as my sil is part of a clan and everything revolves around her son, her siblings, their kids and _their_ kids! We come bottom of the list. It would be easier not to make the effort but I want to see my brother. It's about the only time in the year I do see him. 
Anyway, the trees are up and so far the kittens have only broken one bauble, so that's a lot better than I expected! They're busy playing and fighting each other as I'm writing this - I can hear little growls!
I do try to take some meaning from the season, something that's not connected with happy families and the Nativity, as that's all about the birth of a baby. These days I find the winter solstice itself more meaningful, as it's the shortest day and once it's out of the way, just a few days later, the days start to lengthen and you know the light's on the way back. 
I hope everyone on this thread has a nice break and that you all find something to enjoy about Christmas. 

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Christmas is about family Rowan, and you, DH and the kittens are an equally valid family (((hugs))). I have lost too many Christmas' in the last few years and I've had enough! This year I am claiming it back and I'm celebrating my family. Ok a family of 2 is unconventional but its my family and its what is important to me. Sod what everyone else thinks Rowan, your life revolves around you and DH, and so it should!

Pooch is a frustrated and sore boy and I'm finding that a bit hard to cope with but we'll get through it. This time tomorrow I'll be riding my new snowboard and it is a beautiful work of art so as long as I can look as cool as my board then it will be a fab weekend ;-) 

Illy - it was the word 'slashback' that made me think you weren't in the uk.

Katxxx

PS. I was thinking more like a couple if weeks than 3 days drinking too much wine ;-)


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## Nordickat

I think I'll get a white Christmas. Half a meter of snow now that won't be melting since its -25 outside today ....... ouch


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## Rowan22

All we get is rain, rain, rain, which is rather a disaster as so many parts of the country are already flooded. This must be the wettest year since records began.
Your area sounds gorgeous, Kat, a real winter wonderland!
You're quite right about making the most of Christmas. It is our Christmas, too.  We should do what we enjoy and what gives us pleasure (and yes, a few glasses of wine will definitely be a part of that!)
Hope your dog is starting to feel a little better. At least the op is over now. I hate seeing pets in pain, though. One of our cats had an ear operation earlier this year and even with the pain killing liquid, she was obviously miserable. It's frustrating because you can't reassure them it will be over soon and you never know just how bad it is. 
One more day of work. The rest of it can wait till after Christmas!   

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

It is gorgeous rowan but once you get down to -25 it starts to hurt and big deep breaths are real stingers. -30 and the dogs nose must freeze because he sneezes as soon as he goes out then turns around to come in again. i heard your flood warnings again which sounds miserable yet again.

The worst thing about pet pain is not being able to explain it. For all he knows he'll be wearing a cast on his leg and a lampshade on his head forever. Poor thing. We are about to have another pee trip and bless him, he hasn't pooped for a couple of days because I don't think he can work out the logistics :-(

On that note I'll log off. Enjoy your wine and treasure the time out together as a family of 2 xxx


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## doddyclaire

Hello beautiful ladies, Just popping on drunkenly to say that I hope you manage to make the best of the season!!!  I am partaking in all the (alcoholic) cheer I can!!!!

Merry Christmas, I hope you find your own versions of happiness this week xxx


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## Nordickat

Aaahhhh. Big disaster in the kat household. We thought the wine shops would be open this morning but they are shut! This country is crazy. How can a nation function when the wine monopoly is shut from Saturday lunch until Thursday morning over Christmas?!?! We have lots of white wine and port so all is not lost, but we only have a couple of bottles if red. Humph! 

We just had one of our best snowboarding weekends ever, although the 2 boys both got a touch if frostbite, us girls obviously have chubby cheeks as we were both ok. Anyway, it was fab and I can honestly say it was one if the best 3 days I've had in months and months. Good times are out there for us all. I really do with all my heart, hope you all enjoy this Christmas xxx


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## doddyclaire

Kat - that sounds fabulous apart from the lack of red wine 

Happy Xmas xxxx


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## Debs

Hi girls just popping in to wish you a Merry Christmas  

I hope you all manage to find something nice to enjoy  

Kat - sounds excellent few days however I would be beside myself without the red   (mind you having said that I am not drinking ever again after Saturday   )  Hope Santa Paws is good to poochy x

doddyclaire - enjoy the alcohol!  

Illy and abboswoo welcome to the board although of course Im sad to see you here but at least you know you have all the support behind you  

Hope everyone else is ok and that Santa brings you lots of pressys  

We are off to my sisters tomorrow for dinner - well actually her oven broke today so we are just working out the logistics of cooking half here half with her neighbour and transporting it all about      Had a bit of a wobbly day today - xmas eve is always my horrible day   and the christmas carol songs outside sainsburys this morning started me off    I guess its just one of them days for me where I long for so much - of course the babies I never got to get ready for santa but also the fact that both my parents arent alive  and I dont know why but its today it just gets me.  Anyway its nearly over and I am looking forward to tomorrow with my sister and her family - we have gone to xmas dinner with them for the past 20 years    so i think im due to cook the turkey tomorrow  

Anyway girls I hope you do have a lovely day one way or another.

Love

Debs xxx


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## Rowan22

Happy Christmas everybody! Let's hope we all find something to enjoy.
As for me, guessed what turned up this morning, ten days late? Just when I'd begun to get that flicker of hope, you know the one. Just what I wanted for Christmas, cramps and bleeding and more tears!
It's at times like this when I wish we had the contraceptive pill in the house. A couple of those would stop the damn thing, flooding my stupid body with artifical hormones. As it is I'm wondering whether wine and the painkillers I have to take are a good combination!
I really hope you all have a good time tomorrow. Let's hope that the new year that's about to begin is a better one for all of us.

Rowanxx


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## Debs

Rowan  xxx

Boy am I having an emotional one!  But its actually a quite nice emotional one which is a bit hard to explain but so many people in so many situations this xmas .... I really do appreciate what I do have.


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## Nordickat

(((Rowan))) I hope your pain eased quickly.

Debs - I hope your heart strings survived all that tugging and that it continued to be a nice day even if a few tears were shed xxx

My Christmas was a little unconventional - a 4 hour trip to the vets (stubborn pooch defies science and sedatives just can't knock him out!) on christmas eve meant we didn't go away until Christmas Day. But the last 2 days have been lovely, out skiing in blue skies  The lack of vino situation got a bit hairy for a while but the port was a lush substitute. My parents fly out tomorrow closely followed by a hurricane which will make for an interesting new year!?!

I hope you all found inner peace and had some good giggles over fine food and flowing wine.
Katxxx


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## Debs

Ohh I hope pooch is doing ok now?  I have one here who has been a pig these past few days - snaffling anything and everything when we arent looking  

Enjoy the skiing .... and the port  

Stay safe with the hurricane  

Love

Debs xxx


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## Rowan22

Kat, it sounds gorgeous! All we have is rain, rain and rain. Stupidly warm winds seem bent on pouring the Atlantic ocean on to this poor, battered, flooded island. And every time I look at the Met Office forecast I swear, as they're predicting no end in sight. 
This year has broken all records for rainfall and it looks as if it hasn't finished yet. 
As for me, I am depressed and feel as gloomy as the skies. The period's over but the emotional fallout isn't. I don't know why it's so hard to understand, to really understand, that it doesn't matter how many games my body plays it is incapable of getting pg or holding on to a pregnancy for more than five minutes. That it doesn't matter if it does ovulate (it did), either the eggs are cr*p or all the illnesses mean I can't hold on to anything that does start. This is how it's been for years now but still, it seems I can't understand, the reality won't sink in. 
How do you ever get past this point? 
Kat, I hope the dog's getting better. Debs, why not eat well, if you can. Sounds good to me!

Rowanxx


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## huwhoney

Not sure where to post(as per usual!)  hi every1 any way, any1 feel at the mo no matter where they go real or not whatever they see/go/ hear anything there is ALWAYS a baby or pregnancy involved??!? Just seen/ heard a preg announcement from some1 I used to work with who is some1 I never thought would be a mum b4 me(ha how wrong was I?!?!) don't know how much more I can take especially now I KNOW I will NEVER naturally be a mum unless I was soooo lucky I was to win enough ££££ to try more heartbreaking IVF until I do become what is easily taken for granted a much wanted mummy to a very very much wanted baby/child  had a very crappy down day that not even my mum could lift me out of  x


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## Debs

Huwhoney im sorry to find you on this thread   its probably the hardest thread to join in terms of making decisions   but you are amongst friends who will hold your hand and support you  

Looks like you and Rowan are having a hard day   wish I could wave that magic wand  

Rowan I still curse AF even now - whats the point of it   as I have got older its got worse   but I guess theres nothing we can do about it so we have to put up with it    I used to have it for 3 days max - now its 7   its like it just haunts me!

Huwhoney - I think the time of year doesnt help either when we are feeling so low    I hope tomorrow might be a bit easier for you.  Try and busy yourself a little just to take your mind off it even for half an hour.

I have to go into work tomorrow for a few hours so no lazy day for me - will be back to work as normal come Wednesday I have no ideas where the time has gone  

Not looking forward to the NY - its never been a hit with me so will be glad for it to just happen and get it over with  

Hope everyone is doing ok?

Love

Debs xxx


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## NickyRich

Hi girls=happy new year to you all and I hope you have all had a good xmas!!!!  So sorry to have been awol for such a long time!!  Xmas term is school is always manic!  I had norovirus the second week of December-started after my £50 works do meal out!!  What a waste of money!!!  Over xmas, hubby has been ill with heavy cold and cough, passed it on to me, my mum and my dad!  My mum also has shingles and because of her Crohns, has been really ill with it!!  The weather hasn't helped at all either-Lee and I went for a 4 mile walk today and it was fab to be outside!  Have eaten too much lately and am actually looking forward to getting back into my diet and exercise again!  It's Lee's birthday tomorrow so we are off to the cinema to see The Hobbit in 3D.  Have been a bit emotional over xmas as we had hoped that if the fertility treatment had worked, we would have been telling people over xmas but no luck there.  My nephew has spent xmas in the Falklands with his step monster's family so it has been strange not to see him.  He is back tomorrow though and I can't wait to see him!!  Had a lovely day xmas day with my parents, hubby and the dogs-very quiet and just as I like it!  Hope 2013 brings us health and peaceful thoughts!  Hope everyone is well xxxxxxxxxx  Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!!  (Happy New Year in Welsh)


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## Nordickat

Just a quickie to wish you all a happy new year. I hope it's a great year for all of us.

I'll be back for a proper catch up later this week.

Love and hugs to you all, 
Katxxx


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## Nordickat

Helloooo

I'm not sure if any of you are able to read this kind if stuff but i'm reading 'the snow Child' by eowyn ivey. It might be a bit sensitive but i'm really enjoying it.

I was going to write more but DH is bothering me. He seems to think he is more important than you guys but don't worry i've put him straight ;-)

Katxxx


----------



## Debs

Not heard of it Kat - gonna take a look as I could do with a new read  

How cheeky of DH   glad you put him straight   

Hope everyone else ok?

Love

Debs xxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat, Debs, Nicky, huwhoney and everybody else reading this thread - and Happy New Year!

I hope you all got through Christmas OK (isn't it horrible that we have to put it that way?!)

Nicky, I hope you and your dh are feeling much better. There are so many bugs going round at the moment. What was the Hobbit film like? I keep wondering about seeing it but I know all Tolkien's books very well and I can't believe Jackson got three films out of what was originally a children's story. The book just isn't long enough! I'm afraid if I go to see it I'll end up muttering 'well, _that_ wasn't in the book for a start!' and get thrown out!

How are you doing at the start of this new year? My dh is still at home as he's a teacher and the kids aren't back to school yet. I've had to work for quite a bit of the Christmas/New Year period, so I do find this a bit difficult. The worse problem, though, is still my emotions and the fact that they can be triggered so easily. All I need to do is to hear a family's voices in the supermarket or see an ad for one of those baby programmes and I feel my guts curling up and my fists clenching.

I'm beginning to feel like Mr Spock, what do we have emotions for? What good are they?! And how much longer am I going to feel like this? I just wish there was an answer, a way out but every time there's one of those blips and the period's late, I'm reminded of the fact that my body just won't do what I want. The blips are probably happening because I can't be far from the menopause, not because of pregnancy but it's so hard to remember that. We are still with COTS but we're getting nowhere and this is the problem with surrogacy in this country, but no way can we afford the incredible prices that American clinics charge.

Ah well. Does anything ever change, I wonder? Anyway, on that gloomy note, I do hope we all have a good 2013 and that this year's a lot better than last.

Rowanxxxx


----------



## Nordickat

Hi again, 

Debs - its a story about a childless couple so it might touch the odd nerve but I'm enjoying it so far. Turns out DH was just sour because I was going to the movies without him! I can highly recommend '7 psychopaths' for a really good giggle.

Rowan - While I'm loosely on the subject of books, have you read 'Where shadows lie' by Michael Ridpath? Its is fiction but is themed on the connection between the icelandic sagas and Tolkein. Or actually how about 'Ingenious pain' by Andrew Miller? The main character in that feels nothing, no physical pain but no emotional pain either. Its very sad to wish you didn't have emotions though. What about all the good emotions you would miss out on. Not all of them hurt, there are good feelings too. This might sound crazy but I'll share anyway (I do have a crazy certificate anyway   ) but if I'm having a hard day emotionally I use physical feelings to drown them out. On a tough day I'm likely to go out with not quite enough clothing on so I get a bit chilly. It helps keep me in the here&now which makes the things that are not real feel less painful. Does that make sense? If I walk into a situation that causes me anxiety I can just unzip my coat and let a cold draft in and its enough to give me a focus on real feelings and not emotional ones. Maybe you can think of some way to feel physical feelings instead of emotional ones when you are shopping. Rubbing your hands together and feeling the warmth generated is a good one, or feeling the cold smoothness of the trolly compared to your fluffy soft scarf. Focus on your physical senses and not your emotional heartache. Hang in there with COTS   

Nicky - your christmas sounds lovely and I hope everyone was well enough to celebrate christmas #2 when your nephew got home   

Huwhoney    Are you feeling brighter today. The sky is blue here and I hope the sun is shining on you too.

Claire and Libran   and   to you too. 

 Illy and anyone else reading.

I'm back at work today for the first time in 6 ish weeks and its a bit of a shock to be honest. In a weird way I've enjoyed it, being 'normal' but I'm sooooooo tired now and I have had to ignore or delegate quite a lot of stuff. Slowly does it I guess. 

Enjoy your weekends everyone, 
Katxxx


----------



## AMD

Hi ladies. Can I join you all?

Just had our final attempt, number 6. We have tried donor egg here & abroad & embryo donation & with immunes. One attempt worked but ended in MC. I'm wiped out emotionally & physically & after 5 yrs of treatment can do no more & so moving on. 

Look forward to chatting to you all.xx


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## Rowan22

Kat, you are a kind, compassionate person. Thank you. 

No, I haven't read either of the books you mention but they do sound worth reading. I know a lot about Tolkien, too much probably, having been a hardcore fan since I first read_ The Two Towers_ when I was 17 (I got it from the local Library and the _Fellowship_ was out, this may have been a good thing as I don't think Bilbo's birthday party would have hooked me in quite the same way). I read about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili running across the plains of Rohan chasing a band of orcs and I was hooked. I then went and bought the one volume paperback edition and sat up till 3 in the morning reading the first chapters, after which I still couldn't sleep because all I could think about were Black Riders (this is why I don't read or watch horror films, ever!). I still think the evocation of those wraiths is one of the best things in literature, especially as he makes the reader work because so much of it is hints or associations. This is one thing the film got wrong, though, if those Riders had got anywhere _near _Frodo by the Brandywine crossing, that would have been the end of the story. 
Anyway, I went on to write about Tolkien for my first degree and the books will feature in my PhD, if I'm ever capable of actually finishing the proposal to start it! His sources were one of the things I wrote about. He was a medievalist and he used Old English poetry, among other things, to spark his creations. And the sagas were definitely among his sources, too. 
Your comments about using body sensations to 'gate' out emotions are interesting. I used to self harm and I'm not proud of it but sometimes a jolt of physical pain was the only thing that would stop the hurt inside. Trying to stay in the moment is a good idea and it's one of the things the mindfulness movement suggests but it's so hard to do. Today hasn't been a good day because I haven't felt too well. I suspect the sugar levels are awry, again. Last night was bad because my dh was ill and for some reason lack of sleep affects the diabetes. I don't pretend to understand why this should be but I suspect having breakfast at all sorts of wierd hours has something to do with it. It's been a day when I've been able to finish the work I had to do and that's it. Nothing else. To make things worse, I phoned my mother and found out that she'd had a fall (why do old people fall so easily?) She lives alone, so this is a worry. 
How is your dog now? I hope he's over his op. 
I think you're right about work, you need to take it slowly and pace yourself. If you need to delegate some work, do that. Have a good weekend and I hope the weather stays fine for you (in all senses). We actually had some sun here today, I couldn't believe it!
Hi to anyone else reading.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

AMD - wishing you a warm welcome to our thread xxx

Rowan - you don't need physical pain to take away the emotional pain. Just a physical feeling is enough. Go back to basics with your mindfulness, it might help your proposal writing aswell as your emotions. Sometimes just being able to clear your head is enough. I have one friend who swears by my writing the alphabet backwards tip before a stressful meeting, and another who religiously writes the alphabet with her left hand before a presentation. Its all the same thing, emptying the anxious thoughts however you can. Having said physical pain is not necessary, i've twisted my pelvis so its crushing my sciatic nerve and the other bundle if nerves next to it. Its breathtakingly painful which is almost a relief for my emotions. I hope you wake feeling better tomorrow xxx and that your mum is ok too xxx

Pooch is getting frustrated now. His 2x1hr walks each day are now 2x10mins and he is really bored now. 2 weeks down and another 6 to go before his X-ray to see if his bones have knitted tohgether :-( Poor boy. I am getting extra cuddles though ;-) He was dozy after sedation yesterday and insisted in sitting on the arm of a sofa to see out of the window. He promptly fell asleep and landed on the floor with a big crash and I'm just hoping he didn't do more damage.

I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but I've never read Tolkien! I know I should but I think it intimidates me a little. I don't feel clever enough to read it although I'm not sure why I think I need to be clever to read about hobbits?!?!

Right bed and book for me since DH is hogging the tv for his welsh language fix!

Night all and enjoy the weekend,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat

I hope you all got through Monday OK. Its the toughest day of the year apparently. My PhD student (who has got herself pg *again*  ) informed us of that at her progress (or lack of) meeting. The  is not because I´m angry at another pg its  because she is taking so long and doing such a rubbish job of a fab project. I had a bit of a childless wobble yesterday: I walked past a house with 3 pairs of kiddies skis lined up against the wall. I think if they had been randomly thrown there it would be different but they were increasing size order and at that moment in time (I guess my head was in a delicate place already maybe) it seemed to symbolise what I have missed, of time passing, and of what I´ve not achieved. Funny how some things get to you and others don´t 

You are all very quiet these days. I hope you are all OK and busy doing good stuff and not busy stewing over stuff alone.

Debs - ´the snow child´ got a bit more emotional towards the end. I really enjoyed it still but it did pull on my childless heartstrings for a few chapters.

I can here my boy licking his stitches again so I had better go and tell him off. He does that really cute ´don´t be cross mummy´look though when I do ......... the little devil


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat,
So has it never occured to your student that she'd be best to finish her PhD _before_ having another child? How does she think she's going to cope with sleepless nights and the demands of work at this level? Also, I was under the impression that in the early stages of motherhood, the brain is not actually that brilliant at higher order analytical skills, presumably because of the sleep deprivation. 
Or was it an 'accident,' one of those things that the fortunate fertiles of this world seem to have every five minutes? These do happen, it seems. (She says, gnashing teeth!). I knew somebody who got pg when on the pill, which is supposed to be impossible. 
We have some sunshine here today, for the first time for weeks, so I am going for a walk before I do anything else. Work can wait. 
How is the weather with you? Cold, I suppose.
I'm sorry about your wobble moment.  I would have been the same, seeing those skis nicely lined up in descending order. I think the wobbles do happen and will happen and I don't think there's much we can do about them. They're triggers, at least in my case and they bring all the horrible emotions back. I keep looking for options, still but though we were thinking about trying adoption again, the amount of horror stories on various adoption websites and forums are enough to make you very wary. That early damage can't be healed, in some cases and it takes an awful lot of work in others. Also, you can never get away from the birth family, at least in this country, i.e. the family that did all the damage in the first place. The kids naturally yearn to go back to their biological parents, even if the parents were abusive and basically, it's all very difficult. Still no news on the surrogacy front.
I'm glad your dog is recovering. I've had cats pull stitches out, so I know that can be a problem. 
Yes, Monday wasn't actually too bad but I was very low yesterday. I keep telling myself moods come and go, which is true but sometimes they take a long time to shift! We didn't spend too much on Christmas but of course we did spend more than we could really afford, which makes for a tight January. Some people spent so much more. Add the miserable weather we've endured for weeks and the amount of time till spring and the odd illness, cold, etc and I suppose it's understandable why people are miserable. 
Anyway, I am off for that walk! Look after yourself. Hi to everybody reading.

Rowanxx


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## Libran

Hi Everyone
Well, we survived christmas and new year (just about) by hibernating and burying head in sand, but now it is time to face the real world again.
I seem to be developing something of a pattern.  I start Monday morning full of confidence that I CAN and WILL cope with a happy, childfree life, I make all sorts of promises to myself that "from now on, it will be better" and then there will be some sort of trigger moment, and it is all downhill from there.  I just wish I could break the cycle.  
I received a card from an old uni friend (who has X2 children).  Once upon a time, we were very close.  I now can't even summon the energy or enthusiasm to arrange to meet her for a coffee.  She won't drone about her children endlessly (I know that) she will be lovely and kind and sympathetic, so why can't I do it !!!  Probably because even if she didn't mention her children at all (and there is every chance that she wouldn't - she isn't a pusy mother) I would still in my head be making comparisions and making myself feel bad.  How awful is that ?!!!
Diet has started with the new year, but not having a very good morning on the jaffa cake scale so far.
Kat   I would have been the same seeing the ski's.  What I try to remember is that although the "image" that we see may be perfect, very often the reality of life behing the image (and behind the four walls) is far from perfect.  I too have looked after pets having had operations, so I understand the stitches problem.  Poor pooch.  Really hope he recovers fast.  Does he have one of those lampshade collars to prevent him reaching the wound ?  As for your student, again   .  These things really sting, don't they, and I only wish I had the answer or antidote to that sting.  I accidentally stumbled accross pics of the new baby in DH's family on ** over christmas, and it set me back no end.  I didn't even tell DH I had seen them, what's the point, I just cried to myself.
Rowan, how is your PhD proposal going ?  You write so passionately and enthusiastically about your subject, I really get the impression that it is something that you are destined to pursue.  Hope that doesn't sound too daft.  I'm afraid that I'm stuttering a bit with my Psychology A Level.  I'm thinking of putting exams off until Jan next year now, so I guess I'm not a very good example.  My brain is just so full with other rubbish at the moment, it just will not co-operate and concentrate in the way that it used to !
Nikki - hope DH had a good birthday and that you enjoyed The Hobbit.
Hi to everyone else.
Take care XXX


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## Nordickat

to you both.


I just thought I´d pop in to try and distract myself from the dog. He is driving me   . There is a female on heat somewhere in the street and add that to the frustration of having tiny short walks and what you get is Kat with blood pressure through the roof and a whining, crying, barking dog ready to hump the nearest cushion! AARRRRGGGGGHHHHH! Thankfully he has a bandage change and sedation in an hour so not long to survive until I finally get some peace.


Libran - Monday is the worst day for a fresh start. Try a Wednesday instead, and how about aiming for a good day instead of a good week. Small steps hey. You can´t change everything overnight and it only leads to letting yourself down if you ´fail´. Make yourself some realistic goals that there is every chance you can achieve. And as for your friend - go meet her! What if you are missing out on a really good chat and a much needed hug. I do know how hard it is and I´m not making light of it. I can never be bothered to go and meet up with my friends and am always secretly relieved if we have to cancel for some reason but at the same time, I´ve never actually regretted it when I have been ´forced´to go. It might be fun and if its not then you don´t go again.   


Rowan - We finally have a cold wind blowing today. We do have snow but its been hovering around zero since just after christmas so we have a snow, thaw, freeze, ice pattern going on. The ice on our steps is probably about 5 cm thick and I have to wear spikes on my shoes to walk down them! We have the awful phenomena called undercooled rain - subzero on the ground but raining up high - and results in a layer of ice over everything. People were chiseling ice off their cars yesterday rather than just scraping. I hope your sunny walk cleared some cobwebs? Has DH got any work lined up this term to help clear the christmas debts?

The mini skis wobble has passed. Its must have just been where my thoughts were at the time that made it pertinent. I am away snowboarding this weekend and these weekends are the times I am actually thankful to be an infertile! I feel such freedom floating on my board and I can appreciate being me as I ski around the screaming splattered kids all over the slopes  . I think I´m immune to pg announcements now because I really don´t think I felt anything at all when my student announced this one. All I thought about was the project. Her big belly doesn´t upset me either and now I´m seeing the advantage of her taking time off. There is some potential for some great work tied to her project and I´ve wanted to get my hands on it for ages but thought I should leave it to her. Change of plan though and its now mine and she can be second author instead of first   . It wasn´t and accident this time Rowan. The first one was and happened when I was in a dark place and it was hard. This time she has been trying for a while I think and DH told me it was all so secret for ages because she has had a couple of mc. So really, I´m glad she has managed to get pg with a sticky one and as useless as I think she is, I wouldn´t wish my heartache on her.

Right, the dog has reduced his noise to general impatient squeaking so I´m going to dive on the shower where I can´t hear him anyway   
I hope you all enjoy your weekends and that is warmer than mine is forecast (-20 on Sunday   )

Love and strength to you, Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Libran and Kat, good afternoon! 

It's just on one o' clock here and I'm taking a short break from work.
Libran, I'm glad you survived Christmas but I'm sorry that you had to hide away like that. I know just how you feel and I think sometimes withdrawal is the only way to make it through these types of events. We can't stop the main heartache but at least we can protect ourselves from triggers. I try not to shop in tows or city centres at weekends for the same reason and my dh and I are the sad couple who shop for food late at night, when we hope there will be no kids around (though I've noticed toddlers in Tescos at 10 pm   ).
I would be inclined to go and see your friend, as long as she doesn't have her kids with her. In my experience, it's impossible to talk to parents of small children when they bring the kids, as no sooner have you started on an interesting topic then they'll have to shout or jump up to stop the kids running off, fighting each other or irritating other people in the cafe. Then there's the unending 'mummy' that and 'mummy' this. Small children have to learn to wait their turn while others are having a conversation, it's not an innate skill, unfortunately. On the other hand, I think that if they can leave the kids behind, most parents are probably only too glad of some adult conversation for once and perhaps even conversation that doesn't centre around the kids. 
But only you know how you would feel if it did start heading in that direction and how you would cope with it. I have to admit that if I wasn't feeling strong on the day, I probably wouldn't go. 
Of course, your friend may be sensitive to how you feel and so not talk about her children or at least ask you if you would mind if she did. That's fine, I'd have no probs going to see her in that case. 
I agree with Kat re. trying to start anything on Mondays. Not a good time. I don't think we can will ourselves out of this grief because it's heartache and we need healing, basically. Until that happens, the emotions will continue to flare up from time to time. I don't think we can make ourselves feel better or put on that mask, all the time. The sheer injustice of it all doesn't help (I won't comment on that thread going on about prisoners and IVF on the board you moderate!).
Kat, I have to say that from where I'm sitting the thought of all that snow and ice sounds gorgeous! I'm sure it gets to be a real pain after awhile and trying to get about must be difficult but I love snow and I always have done. We've had none at all this year, so far. Today is misty, after a frost last night - and that's the first one of those we've had for about four weeks. I like cold, clear, sparkling, bright winter weather but what we normally get is grey, grey, and yet again, grey. This does wonders for my mood and coping skills, as it means I don't go out. 
I know what you mean about not wishing this heartache on anybody but at the same time I do get furious with people who conceive easily and especially those women who have half a dozen kids or more. I'm opposed to that on population grounds, for a start.
I think I may have made a small breakthrough. I've realised that all the wretched illnesses that stopped me carrying (I think I've conceived many times but my body's constantly rejected the embryos) are not my fault, I didn't ask for them or do anything to cause them, and the fact that I can do a reasonably good job and live a life with them is actually saying something positive about me and my strength as a person. I think I've also finally realised that I'll never have biological children or carry a pg, unless the medical research actually comes up with cures for some of these conditions, but I may still be able to play a parenting role somehow. The question of course, is how. 
Kat, it strikes me you're already doing that with your dog! I hope he heals quickly and you both get to go for lovely long walks again.   
The Tolkien books are good stories, by the way and very readable, so don't feel intimidated by them. Libran, thank you. I am still trying to formulate a proposal and the fact that I change my mind about exactly what I want to do every few weeks doesn't help. I need to get something specific down and if it alters later on, well, it does, that's all! That isn't that unusual anyway in PhD research, from what I can make out.
There are times when I wish I'd gone in for some form of science, especially watching Brian Cox on TV. Astronomy's always interested me, ever since I was a small child and it still does but the problem with any form of science, after GCSE level, is that it goes into hardcore maths and I have never been able to do maths! Words are my forte, not numbers. 
Hope you're having a good day.   Hi to everybody reading.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Bad mummy that I am I left pooch at the vets all day yesterday. He nearly broke me with his constant noise and the vet could see how stressed I was so they kept him with them so I got a break :-(

But give me numbers any day. I'm no good with words, unless they are words about numbers ;-)


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## Debs

Hi girls,

Just a quick one from me to say Hello!

I have been reading but been mad busy but just wanted to see if you all OK and will do a proper catch up later.

Could do without the snow today!

Love

Debs xxx


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## Nordickat

to everyone. I´m a complete wreck at the moment (completely unrelated to IF) so have no sensible words for anyone. I need to be back in hospital really but I go on holiday in 2 weeks and I´m scared if I go in then they´ll not let me out in time. I can go voluntarily but they can keep me if they feel they need to   


Love to you all. I´m still thinking of you and wishing good things upon you even when I´m not here.
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Oh, Kat!   

Look after yourself. I hope things improve soon.   
We have some of your arctic weather now. It's very beautiful, a winter wonderland, but it does make me glad I work mostly from home!   
Hi Debs and anybody else reading.

Rowanxx


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## Debs

Kat - if you need help now - get it now   If you dont  get it how will you be in the next week or two?  At least by getting the help now you stand a chance of things getting a bit better?

Big hugs to you darlin.

Love

Debs xxx


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## NickyRich

hi there girls-have been awol for ages-so sorry!  Don't seem to get chance to get on the forum at the moment!
Kat-huge hugs-Debs is right-what about finding some help now before things get harder for you xxxxx  
Well, Wales has been hit by the snow-which is probably a tiny amount when compared to Norway!!  School was shut on friday and Lee and I went for a long walk and went to see how Izzy liked the snow (She absolutely loved it!!!)  Am finding it so hard to motivate myself to do any exercise and it's hard to get back into my diet!  Have gained almost a stone since hols in August which is frustrating!  Have signed up to do a sponsored swimathon though-2.5k to raise money for Marie Curie and Lee and I are considering a cycling hol in France in the summer so need to get moving!

Been struggling with a horrible situation in school since before xmas.  A member of staff who was working in the nursery unit with me (and several others) has made an allegation of bullying against myself and two nursery nurses.  It has upset me so much and made me really angry!  All I have ever done is support her and try to help her cope in the class.  I had to speak to her about unprofessional comments she made in class-on the advice of the head.  I have called my union in and they seem to think there is no case to answer as all I have ever done is manage her in the way I am expected to.  It has been like a black cloud over my head and in the process, it has come to light that she has been 'slagging' me off for a couple of years!  We have no idea if she is going to return to work as she is off with stress due to this 'bullying' and I really hope that if she does, she will not come back into my class!!  I can't imagine being civil with her!!  What upsets me most is that I was bullied badly in school and in university and I feel so affronted that someone has accused me of it for simply doing my job!!  The chair of governors has been informed as she has also brought up things about the head!!  I have never really trusted her but I am so hurt to hear the comments she has made about me behind my back after I have been so nice to her!  I just want to punch her in the face now!!!    (Not that I will!!!)  The pregnant teacher is looking more and more pregnant and spends all her time drawing attention to her stomach which I am also finding hard to cope with!  Will be my sister's birthday in a few days so that is another hard time.  This is probably the reason for all the comfort eating!!!!  Anyhoos-I'll get there!  

Hope everyone else is ok-the board seems really quiet so I am sending loads of


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## Libran

Hi Everyone.
Nicky, I am so sorry to hear about all the rubbish you are going through at work.  Big   to you.  It sounds massively stressful, but it also sounds like you have excellent support from your union, and I get the impression that the school are well aware of what a trouble maker this person is. Even if she does resume her job, I don't for a second think she would be placed back in your classroom.  I am so sorry for the loss of your sister, and I can only imagine how difficult her birthday will be for you.  Maybe just plan to spend the day quietly with DH and immediate family ?  We too are seriously snowed in here in Cambridgeshire - I'm terrified of getting the car out, but need to get to work tomorrow  
Kat, hun, I really hope that you are doing OK.  I agree with Debs - don't be afraid to get help.  Hopefully you will be well enough to enjoy your break / holiday.  Thinking of you XXX
Rowan, how are you ?  Have you managed to write your PhD proposal yet ?
Feeling pretty down at the moment.  Not the best start to the New Year.  Just the usual rubbish - baby talk at work, pics of relatives babies on **, my mum going on about what a wonderful time she had with the grandchildren at the pantomime over christmas etc etc etc.  Feel like I just want to hibernate - FOREVER - but trying to be positive and work out some plans for the new year - weight loss / new job that sort of thing.  Ok, so I know it's pretty trite stuff, but you have to start somewhere !
XXX


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## Nordickat

Libran - thanks for your message and sorry you are off to a ropey start this year xxx

Nicky - xxx to you too. Work must be hard right now. I was accused of bullying at work too, and like you have spent much of my younger years being bullied so was devastated to be accused of such a horrid thing. It all fell through though because same as you, it was a joke that I could ever be a bully. Hang in there and sense will prevail and you will never work together again for sure. I hope you can celebrate your sisters life with your nephew and shed tears of joy at memories as well as sadness over your loss.

Debs - thanks. I took your advice.

Rowan - you must be in snowy heaven right now? Enjoy! I do love winter.

Thanks for your good wishes. I had a terribly painful therapy session which was just too much but now after much pill popping I am compos mentis again and now know my limits. Small steps and not giant leaps required.

Katxxx


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## Debs

Nickyrich    Remember what goes round comes round    Its not nice when you are in a situation like you are but just stay strong and fingers crossed it will all get sorted quickly for you. x

Libran - sounds like you need a   too!  My ** has been inundated with all the happy family snow pictures.  Lovely to see  but a constant reminder of what I cant do    Thankfully my neices (22 and 17) invited me round to build a snowman with them    and I have managed to have some fun in the snow too but ** has been a bit "difficult" if im honest.  Good luck with the new job/weight loss etc - let us know how you get on x

Kat - Im so glad you have been and asked for help.  Its a good thing you recognise when you need it so well done!  Therapy can be so difficult   you are doing well and like you say - small steps not giant leaps    Do you think you will be ok for you holiday?

Not much happening with me - DH is working nights atm and I have full responsibility of the remote control!!!  Im not sure I know what to do with it as im not usually allowed it     ive been told I cant take harvey dog to bed with me .... hmmmm yeah right     Right off to watch corrie and the maybe wedding  

Take care everyone.

Love

Debs xxx


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## Nordickat

Small steps means not thinking as far as the holiday debs :-( 
DH didn't know that I let pooch sleep with me while he is away but I let slip this weekend and got in so much trouble for it lol. I'm glad you had some fun in the snow. I can't remember the last time I made a snowman despite being up to my knees in snow every year. I think our snow is too dry at the moment actually, even pooch comes in with none on his feet.


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## Debs

Kat I hope the small steps lead you to the holiday destination  

Love

Debs xxx


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## Nordickat

Debs - Did you and Harvey Dog get out of bed before DH got home and caught you both?  I´ve decided to work on persuading my support team that snowboarding is good for my healing and I´m going with close friends who all know of my incarceration last year so will look out for me. Snowboarding is the only time when I feel free, and alone but not lonely, as opposed to the usual day where, same as many on here, I feel lonely but yet surrounded by people.

Libran - I don´t think new job and losing weight is trite at all. Its important and takes time but hopefully will help. I still don´t have a ** account much to the annoyance of friends and family who _have_ to email me personally rather than just post on **  . I´m sorry you are surrounded by so many people reminding you of what you don´t have


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat, Libran, Debs, Nicky and anyone else reading,

Kat, snowboarding sounds a lot of fun and I hope you feel well enough to go. Therapy is horrible, isn't it? I've had some of it in the past and of course, part of the problem is that it forces you to look at things you don't want to look at and feel emotions you just don't want to feel. I also find, personally, that some of the attitudes and fixed ideas that cause me grief are just that, fixed. I can't alter them by an act of will even if I know they are stupid. (I hasten to add that I'm sure this isn't the case for you! It's just that I am stubborn.)
And today I feel low, again. It's that time of the month again and the connection between these damn periods and my feelings is so obvious that it can't be denied. Unfortunately, the cycle just won't stop and I haven't had any help from doctors in forcing it to stop. Every period is another cruel reminder that my reproductive system never worked properly and I haven't done the basic women's thing, I haven't given my husband a child.
I have another birthday this week and I'm not looking forward to it but at least it isn't a mile stone, like last year. 
Nicky, I hope your situation at work resolves itself. I agree with the others, I don't think you will have to work with this woman again or at least not in the same classroom. That's just not tenable and it's not good for the kids, either. It sounds as if your management team are aware of her unpleasant quirks. I do agree, though, I would feel terrible if anyone accused me of bullying.
Libran, in a word, no I haven't finished the proposal. This is partly because I keep changing my mind about what I want to do it on, partly because of work and other pressures but a lot of the time it's because I would rather be doing something else right now and of course, we all know what that is! It doesn't help that my potential supervisor is a mother and a grandmother and is on record as saying that this is the most important role any woman can have. I feel I'm scuppered before I even start!
The snow is wonderful and icy walks are about the only thing that's cheering me up right now. It's also very beautiful seen from the window of this room where I work, the garden is plastered in it. 

Rowanxx


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## Debs

Kat - me and Harvey dog was busted     and will it stop me tonight??  Nah - if he can manage the stairs then I will put his bed right by mine and he can have a little sleep with me   How have you been today?  Hope its a little brighter than yesterday and that tomorrow is brighter still  

Rowan   for feeling so low atm.  I hope you have a lovely birthday and do something nice x

Hope everyone else is ok?

Love

Debs xxx


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## Nordickat

Debs - I got caught big time this morning by DH. I thought he had left for work so I let pooch out of his box and on the bed for a bit of a cuddle. We woke up to see DH in the doorway with raised eyebrows. I'm not sure who looked most guilty, me or pooch ;-)

Rowan - ((((hugs))) I'm sorry your hormones are giving you such a beating again. I hope it helps a bit to let it out on here.

I'm doing ok I think. I made it to the movies last night and got completely sucked into Les Mis. I'm just suffering with terrible apathy now and feel nothing for anything or anybody. It's a horrid feeling though, complete emptiness, its awfully lonely. Having some dog stresses though and I'm due my own parking spot at the vets now :-( He is ok, just the vets misprescribing and messing me about! 

Time to get the fire going, 
Katxxx


----------



## AMD

Kat interesting reading what you just said. I feel the same. Lonely & empty. Screaming inside. I have shut myself away as tired of others attitudes. I am grateful for what I do have, especially my supportive dh. I just don't need it ramming down my throat every time someone says sorry about treatment but look what you do have. I am a positive person. In work I rehabilitate others after surgery & always have to motivate. Always focus on the good parts of my life. But 6 attempts here & abroad over 5yrs, in debt, 5 failed & 1 MC combined with endless spinal surgery, myself learning to walk again & many health issues is just too much & struggling to hang onto the positivity. I'm sure in time it will improve & become less raw but the heartache of not having my own family will always be there.


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## Libran

Kat & Debs - don't know what all the fuss is about re the dogs.  Mine sleeps on the bed with me all the time.  Oops !  
Kat & AMD, I can completely relate to your comments about emptiness / apathy / lethargy.  My question is this:  Is emptiness / apathy better than feeling sooooo emotionally grief stricken that it feels as if you have been hit by a 10 tonne truck ?
Nicky - hope you are doing better and that things at work are improving.
Rowan - I don't much like the sound of your potential tutor.  People who espouse the "motherhood is the be all and end all" line strike me as incredibly self-satisfied and narrow minded.  Each to their own.  Motherhood may well be "the best thing" for her personally, but why make such sweeping generalisations and assume that her preferences apply to everyone else ?  Grr.
Ok, now tell me that I am over-reacting....Have just been sent an e-mail link to 145 photos of the baby that was born to DH's cousin and wife in Dec.  Yes, I kid you not, 145 photos !!!  They were taken at a professional photoshoot in a professional studio, with no less than 3 changes of outfits and full hair and make up for new mum.  Grandparents were also included in about 40 "family" shots.  Is it me, or was I wrong to assume that most new mums struggle to even leave the house during the first 6 weeks ?!!!
Right, now I'm off to find a seriously large bar of chocolate to devour XXX


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## Nordickat

AAARRRGGGHHHH! I've got an MRI in 2 hours   I hate them and I'm getting anxious about being anxious already   . I went to make an appt and my choice was April or today. April is too long so I bravely said today but the bravery seems to have faded. I wonder if a trip to the cake shop on the way will help   
Sorry I've not read your posts (too anxious  ) but I'll be back later if I survive lying in essentially a coffin for 10 minutes while they zap me.

I just needed to get that stress out lol,
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Kat  I hope it was OK for you. Cake sounds like an excellent idea! I find I have to 'encourage' myself to go to medical appointments and I have far too many (another turned up just now in the post). If I didn't have something to look forward to or take my mind off it I would never go at all!
Libran, that email sucks. Why, oh why, do people do this? Have they no empathy at all? I can understand that they're ecstatic because they have a newborn and want to tell people about it but endless photos?! _Pleeease!_
I'd ignore them, I'm afraid.  I do think that if people realised how we feel most of the time about our situation and the fact that we can do nothing to change it, they wouldn't do that sort of thing. At the most, a quick email (without photos) announcing the child's arrival. That's about as much as i can cope with!
Yes, I have my reservations about this particular tutor after reading those particular remarks. It also makes me wonder what on earth is the point in women going into academia if they're still going to spout this nonsense about babies being the best thing they ever did. The whole point is that you don't 'do' babies, your body does - or in my case, not! Academic achievements, however, are your own, you've worked for them. Bringing up the kids decently is an achievement, of course but this distinction seems to be lost on some people. 
AMD, sorry that you are so low. I can sympathise with the health difficulties. I have three chronic illnesses. Every time I use the disabled loo in a supermarket, I wait to be challenged, as I don't always look ill but as I have arthritis in my knees, I can usually hobble, if required. I am also prepared to tell anyone who objects that I have three disabilities within the meaning of the Act, even if I don't let them show. (I hasten to add that I usually use the ordinary toilets but feeling entitled to use the disabled ones is one of the very few perks in this situation.) And yet despite it all and despite having tired and sick days like yesterday, I still try to work (so much for Cameron's rhetoric!). I'm sorry you're in a similiar position. I get very frustrated and angry with this body sometimes but the childlessness is still what hurts the most. Good on you for all you've achieved, especially learning to walk again! 
Hi Debs and anybody else reading.

Rowanxxx


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## AMD

Hi Rowan. Thank you for your kind words. I got remarks & looks when I was on my Zimmer frame ie too young etc. sorry to hear about your difficulties. Sucks hey. It is hard as I have difficulties with my turners & repeated infections but paint on that smile & if people can't see it then it doesn't seem to exist.xx


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## Nordickat

Hi again, 
Not surprisingly I survived the MRI although I think the pre-scan cake and the post-scan cake may have helped   . I told the nurse I was scared and nearly pressed the panic button last time and she cheerfully said ´oh ok, we can fix that´ and put me in feet first instead of head first so I could see the light form outside and it was nowhere near as scary. I feel a bit of a wimp now   

AMD   It sounds like things are still very raw and painful for you but the pain really has eased for me over the last year and I think the heartache does stay but turns to more of a dull ache than a stabbing pain. I hope the same happens for you too in time.   Maybe you should take a break from trying to be positive and appreciating the good things in your life, maybe take a step back and see quite how much you have to be proud of yourself for. I can´t imagine learning to walk again was an easy task but yet you´ve done it, you rehabilitate others whilst suffering yourself ...... I´m sure the list goes on. Obviously it won´t cure your broken heart but everyone needs a break from their own sadness sometimes.

Libran - I think the agony of your grief is better than nothingness even if it doesn´t feel like it. Feeling something is better than feeling nothing for sure. If you feel nothing, you don´t feel the joy in things or love for/from people. If you feel that inner pain, then  you can also feel loved by your DH and you can feel love for him too. I think Rowan and I talked about this a while back   . As for the baby photos. I don´t get it. All 6 week old babies look the same and they don´t interact or do anything so why would anyone want 145 photos of the same pink blob?!?. Even if I was a proud mother I couldn´t be bothered with all that I´m sure. I hope the chocolate soothed   

Rowan - I forgot to say earlier that I am also very stubborn when it comes to therapy and sometimes the fear of being ´cured´is actually worse than being ´sick´ so its hard for me to change my thinking too. To be honest, if I had any choice in the matter I would have stopped seeing the shrink a long time ago, but luckily I don´t have that choice. In my heart I know its helping but the stubborn Kat likes to think its not   . I still think it might be worth a try again for you, maybe not for the IF issues but perhaps to help deal with your health problems?   

Well, MRI done and unofficial diagnosis in already    Another prolapse but in a different spot this time   I´m feeling a little sorry for myself (sorry AMD as I´m sure your spinal surgery was way more traumatic than just a prolapse) tonight although movie and curry might help    I can actually deal with the prolapse as its in my lower back, it hurts like hell but I can cope with pain there. The bit I struggle with is when it travels up to my neck and shoulders and I find that so very depressing. I have no idea why though   It makes a massive difference to my ability to get through my shrink sessions and that in itself scares me. No shrink = loonybin. I´m also a bit worried about our holiday. If painkillers work and I can snowboard then thats great, but what if I can´t and I have to stay in while the others are out having fun? How will my sad little brain cope with that scenario? Got any more of that chocolate Libran?

Sorry, thats all a bit ´woe is me´and I know I have no right to mope but maybe sometimes we all need to wallow a little. I´ll be right as rain tomorrow   

Katxxx


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## AMD

Nor thank you for your wise words & a prolapse is bad enough. We all have a right to mope now and again as well including you. I agree I can deal with all lower back pain & surgery but at the moment I'm wearing a neck brace as my spine can't support my head & im waiting for more surgery.I cannot deal with the pain in my neck & shoulders also not like the lower so understand what you mean. Enjoy your movie & curry I'm into the lost box set at the mo, it's addictive oh & big brother as cant believe Heidi & spencer are that cruel, they fascinate me.xx


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## Nordickat

I spoke to my osteopath again and she said neck and shoulder pain is always harder to cope with. Something about it restricting your breathing (lungs don't have space to fill properly in my case) so being more tiring and then something to do with your brain signals but I missed that bit. I think the general conclusion is that we are not crazy for finding it tougher than lower pain. Do you have a date for surgery and is it the end or will you just have to wait and see if you need more? I feel chirpier after a very nice curry and 'the sweeny'. I didn't even know big brother was on again which shows how out of touch I am lol.


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## Rowan22

Kat, I am so sorry, it sounds horrible! Ouch!  Are the painkillers working? I really hope you feel OK for your holiday and you can do as much snowboarding as you want (sounds wonderful). 
The Sweeney I remember from my childhood, vaguely, as my father would never let me watch it as he said it was too violent! How is your dog now?
AMD, ouch, too! Sounds grim. And here I am moaning about a little arthritis in my knees. Let's just say your posts have put that into perspective!

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

I just tried 3 hours of snowboarding today and I reckon with the right protective gear, painkillers and wine combination, then I can survive Switzerland  . It did mean I was excused from lots of the snow clearing today so its not all bad   Pooch is doing OK thanks and the vets are happy with his progress. We don´t know for sure that its all fused together properly but all of a sudden he has a new lease of life. I think he feels good now and is just so frustrated that he has a lump of plastic on his leg still. Your dad was right about The Sweeney! 


Sofa and book (The language of flowers - great book) for me after my boarding, and I´ve had a sneaky beer already


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## Nordickat

I didn't get time to finish before, my gormet dinner was ready - mushroom omelate and baked beans ;-)

I wanted to ask about your snow Rowan. Have you got floods now? 
And I also wanted to say that someone else having more pain than you doesn't make your own pain any less valid. You moan away about your knees, it must be really frustrating and miserable some days.
And one final thing, do you have any other supervisor options. A good relationship makes all the difference. Mine was awful and if made things much harder than they needed to be. 

Hope everyone had nice weekends,
Katxxx


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## Nordickat

Blimey, you are all very quiet again. I'm heading to the Swiss Alps so catch up with you in a couple of weeks. I hope you all have a good few weeks and that life is kind to you all, and more importantly, that you are all kind to yourselves.

Katxxx


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## Debs

Kat - excellent news on your hols   Have fun - lots of it too   

Sorry I am a bit quiet atm - month end at work is always a busy period for me so I whilst I do read I have to confess Im a slacker for posting  

and again - its a short post for me   

Just wanted to wish you a lovely hols and to say to everyone else that I hope they are ok.

Love

Debs xxx


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## AMD

Kat be careful & have a great time!

Would have been due date tommorow from miscarriage last year. Been getting parcels of free baby products through the post. Turns out they been coming for months but DH got to them first so I didn't see them only this time I got the post first. Going to pass on to me friend who's pregnant. Start to cope & another little reminder!


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat,

Sorry, I'm inundated wth work at the moment and tired but I did want to wish you a great holiday. Have a wonderful time! I can just see you skiing and snowboarding!
Yes, we have floods here. The river in this village burst its banks at the beginning of this week and flooded a little wood and a couple of fields. I think it's the same everywhere. 
AMD   Yes, those little reminders are the very last thing you need right now! I'm so sorry about your due date. Be kind to yourself today. 
Hi Debs and anybody else reading.

Rowanxx


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## AMD

Rowan does sanding the floor in our newly built therapy centre count ha! Least it took my mind of it.x


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## Rowan22

AMD, I suppose you ended up exhausted, if nothing else! Big hugs to you and I hope you're feeling a little bit better today.   
Why, oh why, do I always end up driving somewhere when the schools come out! We have a lot of little primary schools near us and somehow it seems that's always the time I have to go shopping or something! I passed the nearest primary school at about ten minutes to three and they were there, the parents already starting to block the road and all chatting in their little club, the one I'll never join. Then, to make things worse, I passed another woman several miles away coming back from her kid's primary school, baby in the pram, two dogs attached to it and primary school child at her side. I suppose it shouldn't make me feel angry and impatient but it does, especially when I have to give way to them. 
Hope you all have a great weekend.

Rowanxx


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## Rowan22

This thread has gone very quiet. How is everybody? Kat, are you still on the slopes? Hope you're having a great time! AMH, Libran, Debs and everybody else, how are you?

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

Hi Rowan, 
I´m not feeling very tip top right now but I´ll be back when I feel a bit brighter.
Katxxx


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## AMD

Roman I'm still here & still sanding floors!! Nearly there. Open next week.


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## Debs

I am here    busy busy busy workwise but I am OK with that  

Gives me less time to think  

AMD I dont know about your therapy centre    tell me more  

Kat - I hope your hols went welll - am sorry to see you dont feel great atm  

Rowan how you feeling this week?

Hello to everyone else - hope everyone is doing ok.

Love

Debs xxx


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## AMD

Hi debs. I'm a scientist/personal trainer & my husband is a psychologist/counsellor/therapist & lecturer.


We run a centre offering GP Referral personal training/rehabilitate after surgery, Swedish,Sports,Aromatherapy massage, Indian head massage, reiki, Counselling, hypnotherapy, psychotherapy. We combine services & offer hypnotherapy and weight loss sessions especially to people with health issues who would not normally exercise. Just built a new centre in a Forest which we are combining with glamping lodges offering yoga & pilates retreats. This is the 3rd place we have. Without Pilates I would not be walking after all my Spinal Surgery. I am proof what we offer does work. We have done alot of the work on this centre ourselves. My dh has amazed me with his roof building & plastering skills. Never done it before. The house & land we bought in the forest looked like a scene from chainsaw massacre ha very run down, abandoned & in need of alot of work. We are living in the house with no heating & cooking on a camping stove. We have pulled down buildings, built fences, new roofs, drives. Looking really good. We are exhausted but helps take our minds off our recent situation. We love our jobs. Very passionate about what we do so all the hard work will be worth it. Every time a client reaches a goal it reminds us why we was up at midnight sanding floors to get the building ready! Hard to make sense of why things happen sometimes but if I can take all my experience from study surgery & ivf etc & help others then its not all been pointless. Something did come out of it. Only problem I have is my steam room & sauna which is being shipped from china is stuck on the high seas due to bad weather!! we open on monday!!!! So there you go now you know.x


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## Nordickat

Wow amd. That sounds fab. Do you have a link to your centers? Actually that might take away your annonimity so obviously I understand a 'no' to my curiosity. I'm always interested in the people that take their own pain and turmoil and turn it into something of value to others. And also I get so much out of my psychomotor physio but its not something I ever read about in the uk which seems such a shame.
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat, Amd, Debs and anybody else reading,
Hope you're all OK and you're getting over the snowboarding, Kat.
Well, here we go again, try something to get out of this horrible childless situation, get knocked back, scream with frustration and fury, lather, rinse, repeat.
We thought we'd enquire into adoption, again, this time with a voluntary agency. We started a few weeks ago.  Initial signs were good but now we learn that the agency's closed its books at the moment. It's not a personal rejection but it is another setback. 
What I want to know is why do I keep trying? 
I don't think I've ever fought so hard in my entire life to get something, in this case a family, by some means or another and it's all been such a total failure. Every single thing we try, we get knocked back to the same old place. And I am so sick of being in this place.
Needless to say AF is in town, so I have constant reminders of the total failure of my own reproductive system. After all, we tried for eight years. We only used any form of contraception for the first few months of our marriage. 
We would adopt, if we could get an agency to accept us. We're up to number 5, now. 
So why can't I just give in and accept a 'childfree' existence? I don't have an answer to that question but I do know I am sick of bashing my head against brick walls. 

Rowanxx


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## AMD

Rowan what happened with the other agencies? Xx


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## Rowan22

Hi AMD.

One agency didn't think they'd be able to match us with any of the children on their books, another thought our house was too small (this was before we moved out of that area). The other rejection was the worst because it was mainly on health grounds and the letter listed everything they thought was wrong with us in excruciating detail. I do have health issues but I do my best to keep them under control and as none of them can be cured, it's all I can do.
More tears last night. My poor dh was playing 'Tubthumping', which I suppose says it all but I don't know how many more times we can keep getting knocked back and getting up again. 
On to agency number 5?
We're also with COTS but we're getting nowhere. 
Your therapy centres sound great, by the way. How's the decorating going?

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

Rowan - (((hugs))) you will keep getting up again because there is no other option. Curling up in a corner to fade away is often appealing but it doesn't happen and you do have to get up again ready to fight another day xxx You are a very brave lady. I know it's unfair that you have to keep being brave, but the truth is you are. We were accepted for adoption in 2009 but pulled out to try tx again. Now I am too scared to apply again because I'm pretty sure they will turn us down this time. I get why though and I understand the reluctance to let a crazy lady adopt, but at the same time I can't face reading it in black and white. You should be proud of yourself for trying again xxx Obviously I don't know the uk system, but is fostering an option? We have another system here and maybe you do too, where kids come and stay one night a week and alternate weekends too. It's to give them extra support in families that struggle a little. I know neither are the same as adopting but maybe it's a step in the right direction? 

AMD - loads of luck for the grand opening tomorrow. You excited or nervous? Did the seas calm enough for your sauna to arrive?

Looks like my options for fixing my prolapse are pretty limited :-( I have a new MRI next week before they decide whether surgery is really my only option :-( I'm feeling mighty sorry for myself at the moment, especially as DH is out skiing again while I'm stuck on the sofa. What a pair pooch and I are! At least we have each other for company xxx

Love Katxxx


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## AMD

Kat I would not be without my puppy. He has so much love to give. Bless him. They are such a comfort. So nearly ready for tommorow. Been a long & stressful road this time. Finished sanding & varnishing floors at 11pm last night. My sauna & steam room never made it on the high seas!! 2 containers arrived what no steam & sauna. They didn't put it on. Now got to wait another 5 weeks. So opening without. Have to hose clients down ha!

Rowan I worry about trying for adoption due to my health issues. Decorating was a slog! But will be worth it!!


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat and AMD and anybody else reading,

Kat, I hope they can sort out that prolapse without surgery. It sounds grim. That picture of you and your dog cuddling up on the sofa is lovely, though. How is he now? I agree that pets can be so important. We have cats and they are all rabid indvidualists but they can be extremely affectionate at times and other times, they'll just sit there and purr. Cats make good company. 
Thank you for your kind words   . I have to say I don't feel at all brave, just exhausted at the moment and wondering whether there's any point in contacting agency number 5. This would be another voluntary agency. There are times when I feel like giving up completely but I can't, yet. Something keeps pushing me to keep trying. 
AMD, I'm sorry to hear that your sauna never arrived! Are you really going to have to hose down your clients? I have to say that the spa sounds great, a wonderful way to relax and unwind. 
It's been a beautiful day here and I've spent most of it in the garden, piling up stuff for a bonfire and moving a compost bin. It doesn't sound much, I know but it's been exactly what I needed and it's so wonderful to see the sun! Work has had to wait!

Take care, all of you.

Rowanxx


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## Nordickat

AMD - I hope you managed to disguise the hosepipe as an exotic therapy technique ;-)

Rowan - you'll know in your heart when its time to stop your quest xxx Pup had an infection last week but is lots better so hoping he is cast-free next week  

Funny hearing you were in the garden. So was DH this evening ............. shifting snow lol. It'll be another couple of months before we can even see the ground and another month still before its soft enough to do anything with. 

Katxxx


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## AMD

Kat you made me laugh! & DH said dont give him ideas ha! 

Rowan I agree you will know when it's time to stop. Maybe the 5th is the one !


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat and AMD,

Kat, I hope your dog is much better soon, over his infection and out of his cast. I bet he can't wait to be out of his cast! I suspect it is driving him crazy! I also hope you feel a lot better soon. 
Well, I have just shot off an email to a fifth agency. Why do I keep doing this to myself? You're right, both of you. I just don't feel it's time to stop, yet.
What does incense me is that they always go on and on about physical health. How many birth parents are 100% healthy? I suspect the answer is not that many. Yet all the agencies insist on a full medical  and unfortunately, all my conditions are not just going to go away (oh, how I wish they would!)
Stupid body. I sometimes wish I'd smoked twenty **** a day and got drunk regularly on a Friday night. I didn't do those things, I ate reasonably well, I climbed mountains when I was young, I biked everywhere and yet...I got sick anyway.
There's no justice. No more hill walking, either, the knees won't stand it (sigh!).
We'll see what happens this time. It's good to know that whatever happens, I can chat to you. That's important and I do really appreciate it. There's no support at all elsewhere and I think my dh is just going along with it all because he knows it's what I want. 
Snow, yes, I think they're giving more for the weekend. We're not out of the winter yet. But when that sun comes out, it drags me outside. I think I must be seriously deficient in vitamin D - or fun!
And I've already sown two pots of seeds and put them on the windowsill!

Rowanxxx


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## AMD

Rowan I have too! Sown the seeds ha. I have leeks & red onions. We built 6 large beds when we moved into the forest. Got a potting shed! & a greenhouse where the windows blow out every time it's windy!!! DH re built it 4 times so far. Just starting in the world of gardening as if renovations isn't enough! 

I feel your frustrations over illness. I don't smoke or even drink yet & do many sessions of pilates & fitness a day with clients. Always have. My diet is healthy yet I have so much wrong. Pants isn't it. Especially when I do everything positive to help what us wrong with me as I'm sure you do. We are probably stronger with health issues & able to look after a child better than those who have children as we have to battle every day & still manage everything else & appreciate the gift of a child due to the journeys we have been on.


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## Nordickat

There is only one thing that makes me a bit homesick sometimes and that´s veg growing! Our ground is solid until May and then the ridiculously long daylight hours mean that whatever we do grow just bolts and goes to seed straight away. Fruit bushes and fruit trees are great but the veg plot is a disaster. We are thinking of just covering the whole thing with strawberries. So you two, when you are enjoying the fruits of your labour this season, spare a thought for me


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## AMD

Sad day ladies. My bunny died! Found him dead. No explanation. Other 4 all ok, shown no signs of illness :0((((


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## Nordickat

Oh no :-( Poor wee bunny xxx They look so small and vulnerable when they die :-( It's good there was no sign if illness though, he must have had a quick and painless death. 

Sleep tight little bunny xxx


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## Rowan22

AMD, I am so sorry about the bunny.  What a horrible shock for you! I hope the other four stay fit and well. 
Kat, I saw your last post on the other board. I don't want to crash that thread but I did want to offer support, you've given more than enough to me. I am so sorry that you are stuck with physical cr*p on top of everything else. You really don't need all this!  
I know how you feel about worrying that your dh will leave you for a newer model. I've thought that for years. I've often asked mine why he didn't find a young, healthy, fertile 20 something and then he could have all the kids he wants. His reply? He wants me. That usually makes the tears start as I curse my wretched body for its utter uselessness. At times I could destroy it, literally. I was in tears half of last night because of the childless ache inside (you know the one) and all the illnesses and the fact that I feel so damn old.
Anyway, this post was not meant to be about me! I am sure your dh feels exactly the same, Kat. He wants _you_, fit or not. 
And I'm really glad your dog is finally out of his cast and the infection's gone. That's great news!

Rowanxx

By the way, what's this three positive things a day business? I hate positive thinking, I end up mocking the words as I try to say them and sounding like Pollyanna! 'Everyday in every way, etc, etc, etc'. Blearh!


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## AMD

Rowan I hear you on the think positive! I do try to see the good in everything & try & stay focused but if one more person says to me think positive & be thankful for what I do have (I am) I will lose it!

Other bunnies ok at mo! Worried as dont know what killed him!

Kat not sure what you ladies are talking about. Hope your ok.


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## Libran

Hi Ladies
Sorry I have been AWOL for some time.  I have been taking some "time out" to get my head sorted, but it doesn't seem to have worked that well !!!.
On Monday, I made a tentative enquiry about starting some counselling, but have not heard anything back in response to my e-mail to the clinic   
Looks like "Mindfulness" is the way to go, so I'm looking in to that as much as I can.  Will look at various books and the on line course that have been recommended on the other thread.
Was out walking the dog today and bumped into one of our neighbours in the village.  Ended up (out of politeness) having to do an hour long dog walk with her.  She spent the entire hour telling me that (a) her grandchildren (her daughters children) are coming later today to spend the half term week with her, and all about her various plans to keep the grandchildren amused / occupied and (b) her son and his wife (who only married last June in the village church) are now expecting their first child this coming June.   It never gets any easier, does it ?!!!
Kat - just want to send you massive hugs and offer as much "virtual" support as I can in your hour of need.  OF COURSE YOUR DH IS NOT GOING TO TRADE YOU IN.  Please repeat this mantra as many times per day as you feel the need.  We've all said and thought exactly the same thing (I certainly know that I have) but the answer is always the same.  Love.  Children are not glue that hold people together.  Marriages stay together because people love each other and WANT to share their lives.    Good news about your pooch, but so sorry that you are in such pain and struggling with your health at the moment.  
Rowan - I am so sorry to hear that you were so distressed and in tears last night.  I know I have sometimes got up in the middle of the night when I've been particularly bad, made a cup of tea and read some of the posts and blogs on the Silent Sorority or Gateway Women websites.  I have been following the comments made by Hilary Mantel about Kate Middleton with great interest.  Apparently, Hilary M is just jealous of Kate M because Hilary has endometriosis and is childless..........................?!!
AMD - welcome, and I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your bunny.  How is your new business going ?  I have seen your signature.  I too have TS.  PM me if you like.
Take care and   to all
XXX


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## AMD

Hi Libran new premises same business. Going well thank you. Will pm you.x


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## Nordickat

Thanks for being so nice - and for snooping about on other threads ;-) I just need time to work things out and try and find perspective I guess.

Don't panic, the 3 positive things isn't any PMA type [email protected], it's just finding 3 things that made you feel good in the day. We are talking small stuff like the taste of your morning cuppa or sight of yous dogs tail wagging  Nothing about appreciating what we have in life, but just general mindfulness work.

Back soon,
Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Libran, I'm sorry about your walk and your neighbour's incredible insensitivity. I can't believe the business of the couple who married in June expecting this summer; in fact, I sat here and did the maths! The girl must have conceived almost immediately, at least within three months. 
My God! And to think we tried for ten years...!   We never ever used birth control, except in the first few months of our marriage because we wanted to get to know each other and be happy living together before we thought about children. We've had plenty of time to do that!

It's the utter unfairness of this situation that gets to me at times. I know life isn't fair but sometimes I find it hard to cope. Anyway, I'm afraid I would have given the woman a flea in her ear, there's only so much you can stand! Does she know your situation? If so, the insensitivity makes me shudder, though I do know she's hardly the only one. 

I hope the counselling works for you. I have been thinking about it but we simply can't afford it at the moment and I'm getting absolutely nowhere with requests to my surgery. Because I have several chronic illnesses, never mind the childlessness, I am entitled to some help with coping with them psychologically, according to the Diabetes UK website but obviously my particular surgery hasn't read that! It does do the physical checkups, eyes, etc but as far as coping with any of this stuff is concerned, you can just stuff it. I've tried asking to go on the waiting list three times. Nothing. 

I do know about mindfulness, it forms part of Buddhist practice and I have read some of the Kabit Zin books. I do get what he's talking about but it sometimes feels very difficult to believe that just trying to focus on the present, etc, etc, can help with physical illnesses,  though, to be fair, he does give the evidence and he's worked with people who've had heart conditions among other things. The Buddhists would say it's about aversion and desire, I don't like the illnesses and don't want them and I do want children and don't have them. This leads to enormous suffering and there's no easy way past it. 

Kat, I hope you're beginning to get some perspective, if that's what you feel you need. Have you and your dh talked about all this stuff recently? How is the weather where you are? How's your dog now?

Today is grey, gloomy and cold and I didn't sleep well again, so trying to find three things to feel good about isn't actually that easy! It's started to snow, actually and I can feel my packets of seeds in the box on the other side of this room just laughing at me. 

AMD, how are the bunnies?

Have a good weekend, everybody.

Rowanxxx


----------



## AMD

Rowan I have lots of green shoots from my red onions & leeks from seed. There in an indoor greenhouse on a sunny window sill. First time I attempted it. Whoop whoop! Sorry to hear about your chronic illnesses. My family are diabetic my mum is on 4 insulin injections a day. So far I escaped! Other bunnies doing ok thank you. Praying nothing happens to them. Worried about where to bury bunny as we are in the forest. Don't want him dug up! 

Libran got your pm. Thanks.Will reply soon. 

Hi to everyone else.xx


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## Rowan22

Hi AMD,

Yes, I've got three chronic illnesses at the last count, four if you include the utter failure of my reproductive system and its ghastly periods. I'm not on insulin, though, thank God. Four times a day? Your poor mum!

My seeds haven't come up yet. I have a tray of sweet peas, which were meant to be started in Jan but never mind. Usually at this time of year I start the tomatoes but what tends to happen is that I end up with big tom plants on every windowsill in the house in April and May because we're still getting frosts at night and I daren't put them in the greenhouse! Mine isn't heated. So I decided to wait until March to sow them this year. 

What else are you going to grow? I try to grow most veggies, potatoes, onions, carrots, salad, beans and pumpkins. Peas will be in a pot by the back door because if I put them in the veggie patch the mice get them.

Snow's stopped and there's even a glimmer of sunshine! Things are looking up!

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

News flash! Spring has arrived really early and if it carries on like this I reckon we'll be snow free by the end of march. It was so warm today we sat outside with friends in the sun and the bees came out to stretch their wings and have a poop ;-) Maybe I'll be joining in veg patch talk this season!

Libran - big hugs and I'm sorry your time out hasn't helped xxx Fire off an email for another counsellor. If they have taken too long to respond and you are feeling let down by then (perfectly normal feeling) then it's bit the best start to your relationship.

Rowan - I'm not sure about mindfulness and pain/illness but it has helped me loads with insomnia and panic attacks. I have sessions though which I find easier than I think I would 'self help' with a book. Can you change GP to get more support? There must be a way to get counselling. Do the specific illness societies have counselling services? Does that make sense? Sorry, my brain is in the wrong language tonight and I'm translating lol.

AMD - don't worry about your other bunnies. I think sometimes they just die with no contagious illness. The same happened to my rabbit and his buddy lived for years afterwards and then my guinea pig died suddenly and his brother lived until he was a proper OAP. I'm bit sure what to suggest about burying but I guess he just has to be deep enough so he is left in peace.

DH super grumpy and suffering cabin fever since I cancelled our trip away ....... bad wife!

Katxxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi Kat and everybody,

I envy you your Sunday. We've had unremitting gloom for the last week and the forecast isn't too encouraging for the rest of this one. It's March on Thursday and I am so ready for winter to just be _over_! I need light and get very depressed when I can't have it. The weather's costing us a fortune in heating oil, as well, which is worrying. We've got through so much oil this month as it's been so cold. If I'm at home alone, working, I turn the thermostat down or turn the central heating off entirely and just plug in a little electric heater but my dh likes it reasonably warm (sigh!)

How are you, Kat? How is your prolapse? Have you got effective pain killers and what do the medics intend to do about it?
I'm glad you had a chat with your dh and got things sorted out (I've been lurking on the other thread again!)

As for me, nothing from the latest adoption agency, which is infuriating. They promise to contact enquirers in 24 hours and then, of course, don't.

Isn't it odd how if you read pregnancy news, even if it's on a blog and you don't actually know the person, it can come as a stab to the heart? This particular woman already has a child, which makes it worse. I know secondary infertility hurts but not as much as primary infertility. She was desperate for another and about to start tx when it happened.

I'm just really glad I'm too old to have contemporaries, friends or family members who are falling pg.

AMD, how are you? How's the decorating going? Hi to anybody else reading.

Rowanxxx


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## Nordickat

Hi Rowan,

Actually I want  ask advice from you all if you have any. I can deal with aches and pains normally but not this agony. It takes my breath away and I can't do anything to stop it. If I'm in bed I end up writhing about near tears trying to find a position to relieve it. The is no position and its only time that eases it. Even pooch is upset by it. If I even vaguely whimper he is by my side in a shot. He will cause an accident soon as he is following me everywhere so closely lol. I can feel his relief at bedtime as he goes into his box and I become DHs responsibility and not is. Bless him. Anyway, the advice: do you know any techniques for coping with pain? I am trying to breath slowly through it but that's mainly to stop me holding my breath.

I have been referred for an operation. The waiting time is ages I suspect which is good as it gives time for a miracle to occur.

I hope the adoption agency get back to you soon.


----------



## Rowan22

Oh, Kat!   

Do you have any pain relief that's at all effective? Are there things you can mix and match? I know it's not the same but I've always had terrible periods and sometimes the pain's been so bad that even mefenamic acid hasn't been enough on its own. I discovered I could add paracetamol and I now do that, especially as I can only take so many of the mef. tabs in one day. The only other thing that's ever helped was to breathe through it, one agonising cramp at a time and tell myself that's one less. It always stops eventually, though we're sometimes talking about two hours. Making noises can help; who cares if anybody hears you? Yelling or whatever helps to shift pain out of the body.

If it's really unbearable, get some medical help or get someone to take you to A and E. You shouldn't have to suffer like that. 

Take care, my dear,

Rowanxx


----------



## Rowan22

P.S. I also use heat but I don't know whether you should have a hot water bottle with a prolapse. I think you might be best getting medical help. You can't be expected to keep enduring pain like that. 
I'm thinking of you.

Rxx


----------



## Nordickat

Thanks Rowan - back to the deep breathing for me then. I take as much as I can medication wise although I could take another gram of paracetamol but I'm up up the max dose of the others. A&E have given me some pretty good stuff that i'm still taking at night. I have Physio starting on friday so was planning to ask her about heat because i like the idea of one of those wheat packs that you put in. My logic tells me its'll be bad as it'll take extra blood to an already inflamed area. Ooh, but maybe it could help the nerve pain down my leg. I'll ask. Numb feet is odd. I was out on the deck at the weekend with no slippers on and it was lovely. Unfortunately, i don't have enough feeling in my feet for my brain to get the message they were freezing cold. The first i knew was when somebody asked me and i touched my feet. Really weird! Much as i'd love to scream about it i think my poor dog would be beside himself if i did. He is like my wee guardian angel 

Breathing it is and maybe i could count. I don't get crampd like you but it does pass so maybe i can count through it and tick off the seconds - thanks for that tip.

Don't worry though, its not like this 24/7. Yesterday i was well enough to function, today has been hell but hopefully tomorrow will be another good day.


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## Rowan22

Hi Kat,

I hope you have a decent night. I would definitely ask about using heat, I sometimes find that works when nothing else will. You could certainly do with some warmth on your poor feet, anyway, by the sounds of it!
I hope tomorrow is a much better day for you with no pain.  

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Hi ladies. Been missing as we opened last week & busy with clients. So good to be back at work. 

Rowan I plan on growing most veg. Have squash leek red potato from seed on the go at the mo indoors. As in the forest the window panels on my new green house keep blowing out! I'm always in the trees trying to find bits! So annoying. But we landscaped one area. Put potting shed greenhouse & built 6 large beds & shingle around all the area. Looks great.Planted apple & pear trees, rhubarb, berries & currants. 

Kat exercise is so important for the nerve pain & a hot bottle on will help ease the pain. Are there any tight muscles around where your nerve pain is. Do you know if your piriformas is tight?

Been looking into adoption. Met a lovely lady on sat to discuss. She is currently going through the process. Was good to hear all about it. But not sure it's for us. We have concerns over a number of things. So will explore further.


----------



## Nordickat

AMD - you need some beehives with all those fruit trees. Be really good for your clients too as they are really therapeutic to work with. Surprisingly calming in fact. 

Thanks for your advice both of you - I've made myself a ricepack which I'm about to heat up  My piriformas is ok and surprisingly my other muscles are not as bad as you'd think. Its an large L5S1 prolapse pushing out backwards in a perfectly formed blob (I'm almost proud) and then an ugly splodge to the left, both of which have left hardly any room for my nerve bundle :-( I think I may have gained some feeling back in my left foot but now sadly lost some on my right - at least it'll stop me hobbling in circles! I had my first Fysio today and I felt so small. In the rehab gym there were 3 old ladies, 1 amputated above both knees, and they were all zippy around doing stuff and I couldn't even manage my first core muscle excercise. I felt very pathetic even after DH pointed out age is irrelevant if they have been in rehab for longer than my 1 hour. I'm a completely overwhelmed by the pain and prospect of it not getting better for a long while yet so I doubt i'll be if much use on here for a while. I probably just need to sleep a bit but that's not an option with until I get control of the pain ...... thinking of excess alcohol as an option tonight.

I am reading though and thinking lovely thoughts about you.
Have nice weekends,
Katxxx


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## AMD

Kat I feel your pain I have had my discs removed & part vertebrae L5 S1 & L3 L4, now got more probs L3 & need surgery on C7 which us why I have to wear a neck brace to support my head. I heat all the painful areas sometimes I'm sat with 5 hot water bottles ha!


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## Rowan22

Hi everybody,

Kat, AMH, how are you? Kat, I hope your pain is better. Have you heard anything else about the operation?
Well, I just came home to yet another adoption rejection; apparently we are out of the catchment area. As this is a charity/ voluntary agency that's supposed to serve the whole of the UK, I don't quite understand but I do know I feel as if I've been kicked in the guts yet again.
Why is this so hard? Why is it so hard to have what most of the planet has and takes entirely for granted?
It seems that nobody wants us and I just don't understand why not. As we both work in education I would have thought we'd have something to offer.   

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

I´m so so sorry Rowan   . I know it must hurt like crazy but try not to over analyse the ´why?´as you´ll drive yourself crazy and still have no answer. It sucks I know


----------



## AMD

Rowan so sorry to hear that. I understand how you feel about being kicked again & again. I am having many frustrations with adoption at the moment. Happy to chat anytime. I think we are reaching the stage where so all our married life so far has been about ivf. We need our lives back, start living again. The pain of no children will always be there but we need to live as well with some quality of life & not spending all our time reaching for the impossible. We need to get to know each other again. Find ourselves again. We have been trying to find new goals to focus on eg we thinking of climbing some more mountains for charity with is an achievement after all my spinal surgery. Things like learning to grow veg ha I know it's not like having a child but it does help to manage the pain & emptiness. I learnt to cross stitch & have done many things for friends weddings & birthdays etc. I am spending more time with my puppy as he has suffered through this as well & thinking of getting another. Just learning to live life again without children, find some peace & acceptance of the life I have been given & try & find a place in society without having kids as that really does stand out. Also learning who my real friends are & only having those around me who can accept me deal with my illness & doesn't behave odd around me as I can't have children! 

Are you lovely ladies on **?


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## Libran

Rowan   I am so, so sorry to hear of your latest setback.  I can completely understand.  Of course you and your DH have so much to offer a child, but, quite simply, life is not fair or just.  However, AMD speaks a great deal of sense, and I completely agree with everything in her post.  Believe me, I am in the same place, and I can see that if I continue along this path, I will harm both myself and my marriage.  Quite simply, enough is enough.  Words are easy, I know.  Maybe we could all help you draw up that list of "goals" that would help give your life the meaning that you crave ?  What were your passions before you got married and started ttc ?
Kat, I am so sorry to hear you are still in such pain.  Just reading your posts is making me wince.  Is DH still talking about moving jobs (potentially to another country ?).  How is pooch doing now ?
AMD, I too am throwing myself into cross-stitch and my caring for my dog.  I find both therapeutic.  The hardest part is definitely feeling "the odd one out"  in a child centred society.  Watching TV and even reading books (on my new Kindle fire - wedding anniversary pressie from DH   ) can be incredibly painful.  Luckily, DH and I compromised on  mothers day this year.  We went to see his mum last weekend, as I know I will just want to hibernate come Sunday.  How is your new business going ?
Hello to all XXX


----------



## doddyclaire

Rowan - I too am sorry to read of your knockback from the adoption process, it beggars belief really that this can happen, when time & again you read of how so many children are crying out for homes, none of this is fair.
I also think there's a whole world of truth in what AMD has said, there does come a time when you have to draw a line under it, for the sake of your sanity, health, marriage and other relationships.

AMD - How is your new practice faring?  Meant to ask on the other thread if you have a website?  

Kat - How are you?  Hopefully you're still able to vino-medicate?!

Libran - Happy (belated) Anniversary!  I got myself a Kindle Fire last year and love it - it barely leaves my side 

Sorry i've not been about much, had a complete break from FF which did me a hell of a lot of good, but I have been lurking!!

Hugs to all xxx


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## AMD

Libran I too wanted to hide on Sunday. But thought no I'm going to spend it with my puppy. Lets have a furry friends day instead of mothers day. 


We are into our 3rd week already with the new centre. Had lots of positive feedback and very happy clients. Still work to be done on it but we are up and running. My sauna and steam room still on the high seas from china! They are bespoke so can't order from elsewhere. 


And rowan maybe we should have a group goal mission. We can support each other in achieving it?


Claire good to see your back. Our new website is currently being built. Will let you know when we are live. Your welcome to visit anytime as your not far from us are you? We near Woodbridge?


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## Nordickat

Hi claire - nice to see you back xxx Now stay away from threads involving tx talk, i know you snoop about, and hang out in the safe threads instead. And yep, sorted the painkillers timings so I can have a glass of vine with dinner ;-)

Libran - kindles are life changing aren't they lol. I am a true bookworm and though I'd hate it, and I admit I still love paper books but DH was starting to comment on the triple stack book shelves. Speaking of DH, we had a chat about moving and he does hate parts of his job but loves our life here and we are staying for now. He also said he wouldn't consider moving until I was back at work properly and doing ok. He'll threaten it again in rage but I just need to remind myself he won't do anything to make me suffer more.

AMD - my best friend is in Woodbridge so next time I'm over maybe Claire and I can come and visit although I'm not coming til I know the sauna is up and running ;-)

Maybe you should decide to all celebrate the Norwegian Mother's Day instead. I've no idea when it is but it's not this weekend. It's not a big deal anyway, and in fact I'm not sure it even existed when we first moved here. Pesky American customs! I also agree with the whole embracing life as it is thing. What else can we do hey? This is the hand we have been dealt and all of us are worth more than a future being consumed by misery over something we can't have. There is a good life out there for all of us so let's dig it out and live it. I don't mean look at the positive and be thankful for what we have. I mean go out and make positives happen and create a life we are thankful for. I hope your mountain challenge comes off AMD. We planned on doing some challenges too but pooch had his op so we couldn't do it as we want him to be part of it. There are loads of stupid mountain races you can do here. We are not interested in racing with other people (mountains are best served in solitude!) but trying on our own to beat times would be good - talking walking here and not running! We also want to do more long distance hiking trails too. Obviously my back will be 100% fixed by summer ;-) Ooh and pooch is doing good He had his cast off 10 days ago and yesterday he started to walk on his leg properly as long as we walk at my hobble pace. He's looking good and such a chirpy chappy again.

Enough blah blah blah from me,
Love to you all, Katxxx


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## Rowan22

Hi all,

Thank you all for your kind words and support, they mean a lot.   
Mothers' day, ugh! I just wish I could forget it altogether but I have to think about my own mum. What on earth is it for, except to rub our failure in our faces and why is maternity the only aspect of women's identity that's celebrated? 

It's good that your centre's up and running and doing so well, AMD. Claire, a break from all of this is sometimes essential, I find. Kat, is the pain any better? Have you heard about your operation? Libran, happy anniversary and yes, I'm with you on your plans for Mothers' Day.   

As for me, I think the problem is that I can't give up. I spent most of my young life focused on things academic, then I got seriously ill and that knocked out my thirties and half my forties. Then of course the urge to be a parent kicked in. If I hadn't been so ill, it would have kicked in earlier and I would probably have had children in my thirties. The problem is that I can't switch it off and though we have three cats they are not the same as children, obviously. I don't want to go back to being a one sided intellectual, even if that's possible. I am creative, in various ways but that mothering urge is still very strong. And yes, there's the whole societal thing, too. 

Ah, well.

Take care, everybody,

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Kat small world hey! Listen if that sauna is not here soon I will be getting a boat & going to get it!!!


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## Nordickat

AMD - I think most of the regular posters on here are in east anglia. I'm assuming you are still in the uk and not in some sailing adventure looking for your sauna.

Hi everyone else, I hope you got through Mother's Day ok?

Katxxx


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## AMD

Hey Kat. What no sauna still! Losing the will. Not on a sailing mission yet. But it is getting ridiculous now. Those happy clients will be very grumpy if not here soon & quiet rightly so as well. Many issues with electrics as well & a defensive electrician. Bit much when my remote control light, plug socket, heated towel rail & sensor light doesn't work!

I helped DH build a new fence on the dreaded Mother's Day. Hope you ladies got through it ok. I have a review at the clinic coming up on the 20th about last failed attempt. Feel I need to say my peace. Be glad when that's over. Been trying to come with plans & ideas to keep me occupied as a business renovating a house & building an extension for parents & glamping lodges is not enough ha! 

Anyone on ********?


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## doddyclaire

AMD - Good luck with your follow up, and your missing sauna!!  Can't remember if I asked or not, but do you have a website?
I'm on ********, so far having lost several days at Candy Crush!!

Kat - How are ya doin?  Hope the pain is easing  

Libran & Rowan - I hope you're both ok.

AFM - we have our follow up next week also, mixed feelings about that.  Am also being referred to head clinic as i've had a constant headache since beginning Feb - considering consulting a chiropractor in the meantime though.


----------



## AMD

Claire our website is currently waiting to go live. Until that dreaded sauna & steam room gets here we don't want to advertise. Although we are open & seeing regular clients.


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## Nordickat

Claire - try a cranial osteopath maybe.


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## Rowan22

How is everybody? 

Kat, have you got a more reasonable date for your op? It seems ridiculous that you've got to wait so long! How are you doing?

AMD, any news on the sauna front? Why have there been so many delays?

Claire, I know it's obvious but stress can cause a near constant headache. The other problem is that if you take pain killers for it they can actually give you another. I'm not going to jump in with the 'try to relax' mantra as it just isn't as easy as that, is it?

AMD, I hope your follow up consultation gives you some answers but I suspect you'll be told that they don't know what the problem was and encouraged to give it another try. More and more I suspect those clinics are only in the IVF business to make money. 

As for me, I'm currently struggling through another ghastly period which was a week late. I really, really wish my body would not do that! It encourages false hope and then I have to deal with more than the physical pain. Bang goes the weekend but having said that, it's currently raining again and I wouldn't be able to do anything in the garden even if I felt OK.

I'm beginning to wonder if we should have a sweepstate on the chances of getting a white Easter! It feels as if Spring's still a long way off. 

Have a restful weekend.

Rowanxx


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## AMD

Hey Rowan. We had many excuses regarding steam & sauna. Firstly some monkey put it in their desk & did not process it for 6 weeks. Then it was Xmas. Then they said first 2wks in feb. then container from china arrived without it & while waiting said weather was bad at sea. Then told end of march & now a delay with shipping company so now end of April. Got £500 off. But doesn't help with loss of earnings! It's bespoke so can't get from anywhere is! As for my review I know too well of the clinics making money as I went to Madrid for treatment!! I could rant about clinics but I won't as I won't stop. There is a massive undercover world of fertility out there ie docs giving prescriptions for immunes without testing. What we have seen is shocking. But no one speaks up so it stays hidden or its not believed as we want to believe the treatment will give us a child. Going to my review to say my peace. I'm also frustrated with the horrible weather. Can't believe it snowed last week! Today is rotten & trying to build new fence & hand gates & as for veggies it's impossible. My greenhouse went in the wind again! Just after we rebuilt it for the 5th time. Panels just blow out its rubbish!xx


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## Rowan22

Hi AMD,

That's shocking about your sauna, really it is! I can't believe all the delays and excuses and it must be so frustrating for you! So you've now got to wait another month? It sounds absolutely ridiculous! 

Yes, I am thoroughly p*ssed off with this weather, too. I'm beginning to think winter will never go. Driving yesterday all I could see were bare trees looking as if it was December. No leaves, no blossom, just a few catkins from time to time. I wanted to rotovate the veggie patch this weekend but that's impossible and I'm beginning to wonder if there's any point in sowing anymore seeds even indoors.

Our greenhouse has been OK so far as we put it next to a hedge but I remember when we had it on our lottie the windows were always being blown out. It's a real pain constantly having to buy new glass!

I think you're right about the fertility industry - and it _is_ an industry and at the end of the day those people are there to make money and they make a lot of it. Selling expensive dreams to desperate women. It might be better if someone could only prescribe something to turn those damn hormones off. I've been sitting in the greenhouse just crying, wishing to God I could get off this wheel of ttc and hoping only to have the wretched period turn up month after month after month. If there's a blip and it's late, like it was this time, it's so hard to cope. Try as you might you can't help analysing every little unusual ache or twinge and it's impossible to kill that tiny ray of hope.

Oh well, try and find something to do indoors, I suppose.

Rowanxxx


----------



## NickyRich

Hi girls-have been awful lately! Life and work has been so manic I haven't had the chance to get on here!  The easter hols are here at least and they are so welcome!  Have been having a really tough time lately and am finding it really hard to pick myself back up from it.  Mother's Day started it off-my nephew found it hard this year and when I saw his Mother's Day card on my sister's grave telling her he loved her forever and wished she was here and it has hit me for six.  One member of staff is about to give birth and another member of staff (one of the few who knows about my recent treatment) told me today that she is pregnant.  She told me she had been trying for such a long time-a year!  I felt like saying-try 13!!  I was thrilled for her but so sad for me!!!!  Another friend has just gone through IVF and her test date is Sunday.  My life seems like a miserable groundhog day at the moment!!  On the plus side, I have signed up as a Stampin Up demo (a craft catalogue) and I am starting a craft club in a few weeks time which is giving me something else to focus on!  Am also about to start work on assignment for my LEadership course which I have been putting off.  Big, big hugs to you all, off to read back through the posts xxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Debs

Hi girls  

Sorry i have been awol - work has been a little busy to say the least but im back now and way overdue a catch up.

So thats my plan - I will have a read back and see what you all been up to and do a proper catch up post.

I hope you are all having a lovely Easter whatever you are doing.

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi Debs, Nicky, AMH and anybody else reading,

Hope you all had decent Easters.

I found the holiday rather difficult but I guess holidays just are hard, aren't they? Visions of kids and Easter egg hunts. I was awake and crying at 5 0' clock this morning. Why do the emotions always hit hardest in the middle of the night? I know everybody says the emotions have to come out but they're so damn unpleasant and painful I don't want to feel them. Then they emerge given any chance, it seems. 

I realised the other day that I've been posting on this board for five years. I started in 2009. That's hard to believe but what is really worrying is that I seem to be in exactly the same place I was then. Still unable to move on and constantly exploring options that don't work out. The latest one is surrogacy but though we've joined COTS, nothing's happening. Other people have moved on in that time, either disappearing from the boards or adopting or something. In some cases the miracle's happened and they've got their dream babies. 

The problem is that I just can't give up, I don't want a life without a family and that's the end of it, really. Also, it's so unfair on my dh, especially as the problem is my body, not his. How do you ever get past this point, I wonder.

Hope you're all feeling brighter than me.

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Hi Rowan. I'm not feeling much brighter. Understand how you feel. I find the holidays hard. I have been around 5 years as well and nothing to show for it but debt!xx


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## Forgetmenot

Know how you feel! Pretty much my story.  Much love to all xx


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## Nordickat

Hi everyone, 

I know I've been a terrible support on here the last few months but I do still think of you all, those that just read now and again as I do, as well as those that post.

I'm doing well with moving on so felt it was inappropriate to post here. I tried my best and it didn't work so I have to accept I'll not be a mummy. It still hurts sometimes but a lot less than it did and I hope with all of my heart that you all find the relative peace that I have found.

Thinking of you all and wishing happiness your way,
Katxxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi Kat,

Nice to hear from you. I hope you're feeling a lot better since your op, though I note from the other thread that you're on clutches again   . Hope things improve soon. I'm struggling with mobility myself at the moment due to an arthritic flare up in both knees, so I sympathise with not being able to walk. I can't imagine ever finding any peace about the childlessness, personally but I am beginning to wonder how I'd cope with having a child to look after, given that the physical conditions seem to be getting worse. I have three disabilities within the meaning of the Act and there's no cure for any of them at present. Disabled people can and do make very good parents, of course but it must be hard at times. Certainly, I couldn't run after a toddler (or anybody else) at the moment, though this is one more thing that makes me shake a fist at the universe. Anyway, I'm glad that you've got to that place of peace and I wish you all happiness, too.   
AMD, yes, the holidays drag, don't they? My dh has another week off, as he's a teacher and the kids aren't back yet. This does irritate me, especially as I have to work. Blasted school holidays! He doesn't get paid for them, either. We don't have debts, we did and it was very bad at one time. This is one reason why my dh is reluctant to even try tx because we'd have to pay for it and after the first one, that would mean taking out loans. We've been there and we don't want to go back to that place, harassed by debt collectors and all the rest of it. 
Jen   Hope you're feeling better. 
Hi Debs and anybody else I've missed. Hope you're having good weekends. We do have sun here and it's been actually quite warm! I've managed to do some gardening. 

Rowanxx


----------



## Debs

Gosh we are all so quiet on here right now - I hope everyone is ok?

Rowan I hope your knees are not so painful right now  

Kat - you can post on here whenever you like hun - you will always have a warm welcome  

Nickyrich good to hear from you   hope you are enjoying the craft club?

jens and AMD sending you big hugs  and I hope everyone else is ok x

As for me I have had some bad news regarding my beautiful harvey dog - he has a tumour, severe kidney disease, a very bad heart murmur and bad arthritis in one of his back legs.  There is nothing they can do for him so my time with him is more precious than you could imagine.  I cant begin to tell you how sad I am and the tears just wont stop    This is the downside of having a fur baby isnt it   but the happiness he has bought me over the years I am truly grateful for.

Anyway - enough of me and my sad thoughts - its been a lovely sunny day here and me and harves have spent it in the garden.  Sadly dh is away at the min I just hope harves can hold on a few more days till he is back to say good bye (but I wont be selfish and know if I need to be brave I am going to have to be   )

Hope we have another sunny day again tomorrow.

Love

debs xxx


----------



## AMD

Debs so sorry to hear about your dog. It is heartbreaking we just have to treasure all the good times & all the love & joy they brought into our lives. I lost my dog Gypsey mad dog lee! While having treatment & thought it was a sign from her when I got that positive on the 5th attempt after she had gone but was double heartbreak when MC. Gypsey had surgery to remove a tumour & took us some time to decide whether to have the op. I spent an entire summer nursing her. After the summer she seemed to recover we took her to the beach she went mad swimming in the sea like never before. A few weeks later she started with fits one after another turns out when after surgery it still spread to her brain the day on the beach was manic behaviour as a result. Putting her to sleep broke me. We took her to a creamatorium in a forest where they layed her out in a chapel then cremated her. She is now back with me. She was my baby. They are so loyal. Lost without her. I now have a puppy another german shepherd so just as mad. He has helped me deal with losing Gypsey & we sit and chat to her! Thinking of getting another now no babies as we now live in a forest. Gypsey was a rescue dog had 6 homes before me was found badly beaten in a cupboard starved & sat in her own mess I'm so glad I met her and was able to give her a loving home so maybe will now get another rescue dog.xx


----------



## Rowan22

Debs, I am so sorry. I've had to make that decision for several cats in the past and it breaks your heart. We lost both our cats last year and it's just horrible. I hope your Harvey can hold on just that little bit longer so your dh can say goodbye.   

Yes, it's been very quiet on here for weeks! I don't know why but I did feel I couldn't go on posting on the thread on the other board, so I've kept silent. 

AMD, good for you for getting a rescue dog! We got a rescue cat last year and she's a lovely little creature. I'm so sorry you lost Gypsey but you gave her a great home. The puppy sounds gorgeous! We grew up with an alsation and she was the kindest, gentlest dog you could imagine. 

Hope everybody is having good weekends. 

Rxxx


----------



## Nordickat

Oh poor Harvey dog. I´m so sorry Debs. I hope its sunny again today for you so you and Harvey can enjoy some cuddles out in the garden. I hope he is strong enough to wait until DH gets home.


They become such a huge part of our lives, but then why wouldn´t they since they are our family and I´m positive the joy they bring is worth it for the tears when we lose them.


Hi to Rowan and AMD too. I think our ground has finally defrosted this weekend so we can start thinking of what to grow ............. lots of daylight here now so we´ll catch up with you guys in no time   .


Katxxx


----------



## AMD

Lovely weather here! I have my potatoes in. Red & white onions & leeks which I grew from seed. My carrots & parsnips. I have cauli butternut squash cucumber spinach & rocket on the go in the greenhouse! Check me out ladies ha first time ever attempted this!! We also put rhubarb apple pear tree red & black currant red & blackberries in from bare root over the winter. Very exciting.


----------



## Nordickat

Get you! OK, I´ve got no chance of catching up with you, although we can discuss 1001 recipes for currants in the summer because I always have way too many and my freezer is still full from last year.


----------



## Rowan22

Hi AMD and Kat,

Well, I've made a start in our garden but everything's still playing catch up, as March was so cold. I've managed to get the last few potatoes and onion setts into the veggie patch but I've put some others in big pots in the greenhouse, just in case we get another terrible summer, so I've got some sort of control over their environment. I've also sown a few broad beans. Apart from that, everything's in pots, germinating or growing indoors. I've sown tomatoes, climbing beans, sunflowers, nasturtiums and pumpkins so far. The runner beans and sweetcorn will probably be sown next weekend. I try not to do them too early as you can't put them outside if there's any risk of frost. 
We have fruit bushes, too, Kat and they actually did quite well last year despite all the rain! I fed them and gave them a mulch of wood chippings, which looked really nice but the chickens keep kicking it up and throwing it around!

Rowanxx


----------



## Nordickat

DH checked his bee logbook last night and they are 4 weeks behind. They´ll be fine but I don´t like our chances of getting anything growing this year    Our season will be over before we know it.


Our chickens are all in pens since we are in the woods but they go crazy for mulch. I gave them loads of autumn leaves yesterday and they were in chicken heaven    Do you have to protect your seedlings from them? When we had callducks, they used to wait for us to plant everything and go in for a cuppa, and then systematically trash everything ......... a particular favourite was sweetcorn! Speaking of chickens I need to go and sort out their automatic door to find out why they were out at 5am this morning. I only know about it because I was woken by their screeching and there was a badger sizing them up.


AMD - no gooseberry bushes? They are my favourite


----------



## AMD

Kat no like them I'm afraid! We have been thinking of getting chickens but as in a forest I'm worried they be a target?!


----------



## Nordickat

Don't like gooseberries?!?!? No way!

We have lots of foxes and badgers and we've seen the odd forest cat too but in 6 years we've only lost 1 chicken (to a badger) and that was as naive beginners. It's not so hard to be predator proof. Ours are completely enclosed. We live on rock so we don't need to secure the base really but we are building a new 'chook world' as DH calls it and we'll have a chicken wire base too. We also have automatic doors which lock then in a night so they are completely safe. We got it to keep them warm enough when its -20 here and we are away but probably overkill in suffolk. FiL has his chickens out in the field and just has an electric fence round them and he has never lost any. 

Some of our newest chickens came from a guy near Woodbridge in fact 

They are funny creatures as Rowan will agree and I know it's hard to believe but despite their tiny brains, they do have different personalities .......... I know I know, I'll be telling you the same about the bees next ;-)

And there is something very satisfying using your own eggs.


----------



## Rowan22

Kat, I think the only real way to have chickens and a decent garden is to try to fence the chooks into one section. We don't have the hurdles or fences for this, though, so my compromise is to let them out of their pen for an hour's free-ranging every day before sunset. Even in this time they manage to do some damage! It's always worse in the spring with new plants in the ground and seedlings coming up, though I do try to protect them with some plastic cloches. Once everything is established, the situation gets a lot easier. They are very good at digging out weeds, though, so it's not all bad. 
You are right, they do have distinctive personalities. AMD, it's hard to believe, I know but they do! And you get a definite pecking order, I'm afraid, whatever you do! We have six, a variety of breeds and they tend to give us three eggs a day at this time of year. If they're hungry or thirsty or think it's time I opened that gate, they will make a heck of a row until they get what they want!
We've only lost one to a predator since we've been here and she went AWOL before lock up and we couldn't find her. There are foxes around so she didn't get a second chance, sadly but nothing has ever got into the run. 
And yes, the eggs are the best you'll ever taste. Seriously. And the yolks are a rich golden colour. Ours eat everything and anything, including cat food! They are not fussy and we are a no waste household. Very Green!   

Rowanxx

And yes, I do like goosegogs. I have one ordinary green fruited variety and a red one.


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## Nordickat

We have a slightly odd pecking order with one lot of chickens. One of them is very much a free spirit. She is older than the other 3 and has no interest in being told what to do or in telling others what to do. The chicken who is in charge gets really cross with her. Then we have a runt and she just follows the most exciting thing and will happily go home with any human that visits! We have another 4 chickens who have read the books and follow pecking order rules but it´ll be interesting to see what happens in summer when we put all 8 together. There is a big size difference between the breeds so I suspect the 4 little ones will quickly fall into line. And I agree about the noise they make when they want something. I had to make blackout curtains for mine yesterday because from 5am they start complaining thats its time to get up!


DH was bit gung ho chopping stuff back in autumn and one of my gooseberry bushes seems to have vanished


----------



## NickyRich

Hi girls-how are you all?  
Debs-big hugs for you and your fur baby!  
Lovely to read all the gardening and chicken stories-my garden is a bit of a building site at the moment!  

Have had the most horrendous few weeks with my dad being diagnosed with cancer last week-am really so stressed and emotional at the moment-crying at everything!  Had an awful scare in the easter hols-had a frantic phone call off my mum to say my dad had phoned her because he was sicking up blood.  She phoned me as I was home and I am closer than her workplace-I got there and found him in the bathroom-phoned for an ambulance. Tried to get him in the warm because he was shivering like mad and he collapsed so I had to put him in the recovery position.  My mum arrived home and we managed to get him into the lounge and we wrapped him up with fire on but he was shivering like mad and was losing consciousness.  Ambulance arrived, struggled to find a pulse as his blood pressure had dropped so low.  He had a blood transfusion in hos and some tests and an MRI scan showed malignant growths on his oesophagus.  It is early stages and he is very fit and healthy so we are all trying hard to stay positive but I have been awful!!  He is being so brave and stoic!!!  Have stopped thinking about my babyless misery at the moment and am focusing on getting him well again!  My craft club takes place tomorrow and it is a fundraising event for Macmillan cancer care.  Also doing a 2.5k swim on the weekend for Marie Curie!!!  Big hugs to you all-think I will treat myself to a very early night!!!


----------



## Debs

Oh nickyrich     you must be feeling so drained at the moment.  I hope and pray that the hospital can perform that miracle and help your Dad.  Remember to take care of yourself as you are probably trying to be strong for everyone else - but just dont burn yourself out    well done on turning your craft into a fund raising event  

As for me I do apologise for being awol but we lost our beloved Harvey Friday night and I am struggling so badly with it - its horrible  

Sorry for the yet again me post but hello to everyone and I hope you are all OK  

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## Nordickat

Oh Nicky I'm so sorry your dad is so poorly. I hope he stays strong and battles through this. Make sure you take some time out for your own tlc too, it'll help your dad too if you give yourself time to recharge your own batteries a little.

Debs - I'm sorry about Harvey dog too. I hope DH made it home in time to say good bye to him and to be by your side when Harvey went. I can only imagine how hard it is to have that huge hole now.

A sad few days for the thread


----------



## AMD

Nicky sorry to hear about your dad. Kats right look after yourself too.

Debs so sorry about Harvey. We just have to hold onto those many happy times. We planted a tree when I lost my dog & I have her ashes next to a big canvas pic of her.


----------



## Rowan22

Nicky   I hope the doctors can start treatment soon and your dad starts to improve. It must have come as a terrible shock to you all. Take care of yourself. xx
Debs   Kat is right, it's been a rough few days on this thread. I know how you feel, we lost two cats last year and that old adage about them leaving pawmarks on your heart is only too true. AMD is on to something, some sort of memorial might be worth considering, when you're feeling up to thinking about it. I hope your dh got home in time, though. 

Rowanxx


----------



## Debs

Thanks girls - he did hang on to see dh bless him so I wasnt on my own  

We could do with some happy news one way or another on the thread - I hope one of us if not all of us have something nice to come to us.  Lord knows we deserve it  

Nickyrich hows your dad doing?

Take care everyone.

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## Livelife

Hello everyone. Please can I join you.

I think we have also reached the end of the road- 4 failures, 2 reversals, no money it's just not meant to be. If I had the money I would have another go but £7k is just not an option. The other attempts are on the mortgage. I have 2 lovely dogs- a 5 year old springer spaniel and an 8 month cocker. the arrival of the puppy was our way of moving on and it is working. I'm looking forward to planning holidays and enjoying other people's children! I've dealt with 2 pregnancy announcements this week without feeling pain and jealousy so that is certainly a step forward.
Debs I'm sorry to read about the loss of your lovely dog. The life span of pets is one of life's great cruelties. I would be lost without my boys and can only imagine your pain. 

I look forward to chatting to you all
X


----------



## Debs

Hi Livelife and welcome to the thread although I am sad to find you here  

Its sad isnt it when money stops us trying again - it was the same for me  

Im glad you have your doggies to love and have in your life they certainly help dont they    We are certainly missing little paws round the house so maybe when we come back from our holiday we may consider looking as there is always a little fella or missy that needs a loving heart and home.

Hope everyone else doing ok?

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## NickyRich

Hi all, thank you for asking after dad.  We had the most devastating news yesterda-they hope to manage the cancer with chemo but it can't be cured and it is terminal.  My heart is broken-have cried constantly.  He was very calm when they told him the news but has been very upset since.  It was so awful listening to him planning his funeral and asking to be buried with my sister.  How on earth we are going to cop.  just don't know      why is life so unfair


----------



## Elderflower

NickyRich

I don't really post very much but do follow this thread sometimes and I couldn't read and not say how very very sorry I am for your devastating news. Your poor dad. You're right, life is very unfair. I just hope that you all find some strength to get through this terrible ordeal. All you can do is take each day at a time and be there for each other. Take care of yourselves xx


----------



## celadon44

Nickyrich,

I read this thread now and again as I have been near to moving on and I hope you dont mind me posting. I just wanted to say how deeply sad I am to hear about your fathers diagnosis, I sit here with a lump in my throat imagining your pain    Words cant take away any of the agony you are going through but I just wanted to say I am thinking of you and I know you will use the time with your wonderful dad to show how much you mean to each other. Sending you strength    x


----------



## Livelife

Nickyrich
There are just no words really to comfort you. I am so sorry to read your news and wish you and your family strength at this awful time.   
x


----------



## Rowan22

Nicky, I am so sorry.   

I don't come on this forum much anymore as this is really the only board that's relevant to me now (though I do look at the surrogacy board but with ever dwindling hope). I am so sorry that things turned out this way. I hope you're looking after yourself and my thoughts are with you, your dad and your family.   

Rowanxx


----------



## Debs

Sorry for the delay in replying in here - have had a cheeky week away in the sun.

Nickyrich im so sorry to read your news    I wish there was something I could say to help with the hurt and upset you are dealing with right now.  All I can say (and I do say this from experience), make the most of the time you have with him now.  If there are places he wants to visit - go to them, if there are people he wants to see - arrange it etc but most of all just make sure you spend as much time with him as you can and make those precious memories that you will be able to treasure in time to come.

Its not going to be easy and you are going to find the strength to cope with this - but just remember to look after yourself also  

Sending you the biggest cyber hug I can.

love

Debs xxx


----------



## Nordickat

Oh Nicky I´m so so sorry about your Dad    I hope you are managing to enjoy some lovely moments as a family and can create some new memories to give you comfort one day in the future.


Love Katxxx


----------



## Nordickat

I don´t browse FF anymore and just go straight to one thread. I have now turned on the notifications again so I know when one of you has posted.


How are you doing now the gloomy winter is finally over. We watched ´Springwatch´ last night which I love. I was also pleased to see that our Spring is catching you up pretty quickly   


Livelife - I´m sorry you find yourself having to move on and I´m sure that little pupster will keep you busy for a while yet. 2 spaniels You must be bonkers    One thing I can promise you is that the whole moving on process really does get easier with time. I have now accepted my fate and I´m OK with it. Its taken a looooong time and there are still many moments when I feel desperately sad but at the same time I very rarely get that stabbing pain in my heart any longer, its more of a dull ache. 


Rowan - Any news on the thesis proposal?


Libran -   I know you are out there browsing.


Claire and AMD   . I´m heading your way in summer although only for a weekend. Has that sauna arrived yet AMD? Fancy coffee Claire?


Debs - have you started to fill the whole that Harvey dog left? I hope the sunshine lifted your spirits   


Nicky   another hug for your whole family, especially for your poor nephew, he must be so confused why he has to lose the important people in his life.


Not really much to report from me. Its taking far too long to recover from my surgery   . I am pretty much pain free but just don´t have the strength to do stuff still and its driving me crazy. Oh and I still can´t feel my foot so I fall up the stairs a lot when I´m not concentrating because I just assume my foot has followed but nope, it got left behind somewhere   . And Dh had set up some time lapse photography thing and my numb leg/foot kicked the tripod. I´m claiming it is a whole new entity as I have no control over it  .


I hope you are all muddling on as best you can and are focussing on today and tomorrow instead of yesterday.
Love Katxxx


----------



## AMD

Hey Kat. 

It's taken 7mnths of issues, rude staff and endless boats coming from china with it on but I'm pleased to report my plumber is fitting the sauna and steam room now! Was meant to be fitted last Friday but when it finally docked the company didn't pay enough postage to get it here! Paid for 1 pallet instead of 2. Eventually arrived after 2 stressful days speaking to various people.


----------



## Nordickat

Sorry AMD but I did laugh at them not paying enough postage. I´m glad it is being fitted finally though, it´ll be the best sauna you´ve ever had when you finally get to test it. I´ll pack my swimmers then for my trip over


----------



## Debs

Hi girls  

Good to hear from you Kat    Is there anything more they can do for you and your naughty foot?  Glad the pain has eased up now we just need the foot to behave!!!

Amd oh dear that sounds like a right performance with the Sauna!  As Kat says when you finally get in there it will the best one you ever had   

Nickyrich - thinking of you hun  

Hope everyone else is doing OK?  

I have been in Kos for our 20th wedding anniversary and we had a wonderful time.  Back to the cold now and boy am I feeling it - the tan is fading a little too fast for my liking!!!  On the doggy front well dh was driving me bananas to visit the doggy shop so a bit reluctantly I did ........ and am due to become the new mummy of an English Springer Spaniel!  Quite how it happened I will never know but it was love at first sight although so many people are now telling me that I must be nuts as he will be hard work as they are such an energetic breed    he is 2 years old and was a stray so we have no history on him however he does have ALOT of energy    he is currently known as "hurricane" Alfie   ah well it will keep us busy!  Just waiting on our home visit and then with a bit of luck we might be able have him home for the weekend  

Love

Debs xxx


----------



## AMD

Kat god damn nightmare. The plumber and I have just stopped from 7.30am this morning trying to build the sauna and steam room as instructions are in chinese!!! Not to mention the difficulties with electrics! Hope my clients appreciate the effort especially as one piece fell off while I was trying to balance the roof in one hand and the wall in another. I now have a nice lump on my head. Having a sewage treatment plant fitted today as well. My DH had to dangle the builder in the massive tank by his feet as all instructions and kit to go with it were placed at the bottom! So ladders up the side and builder in head first. Such an eventful day.


----------



## Livelife

Debs spaniels are just the best dogs. Their bonkersness is what makes them so adorable. My springer Albert is 5. He is mad but compared to Humphrey the 9month cocker he is totally laid back! Yes they do like a lot of exercise but they are also happy to lounge around so don't feel pressurised into massive walks everyday. With today's horrible weather it will be a trip around the block and they will be quite happy.
Great decision although I'm sure Harvey is very much in your thoughts.


AMD hope you have managed to decipher the instructions and have made progress! It will all be worth it.


Kat thank you for your thoughts. You are right it does get easier and my dogs give me a lot of love. In fact I love them so much I sometimes wonder if I could have had enough love for a child!!
Hope you continue to get better. 


Nicky thinking of you   


So when is the summer going to start. I'm counting down to our week in the South of France in 7 weeks. Can't wait. Must get my passport renewed I'm useless at stuff like that! Does anyone else have nice summer plans?


Xx


----------



## AMD

Hey all how is everyone?

Feeling very sad lately. I guess reality of situation kicking in. Feels strange to think we won't ever have any children. Been busy with work and renovations but there's always that something missing! Doesn't help that DH never had a desire to have children and doesn't seem bothered about no family or no more treatment. Have seen a lovely puppy but DH says we can't afford her due to renovations. Also cancelled my 40th party as can't afford that either. Doesn't help when there's nothing to look forward to! 

Very quiet on here hope everyone ok.


----------



## TippyToes

Hello ladies.
I have been lurking on ff and look at everyone else progress on treatment etc.. Have decided now to join this thread as i although Im happy.for.other peoples happiness, i tend to be torturing myself and i know that its not doing me any good. 
Hope you are all enjoying the sun. Reading some of your posts about finding positive things to does so admirable. Im thinking of getting a dog from a rescue centre, but it seems like such a huge decision to make.  I have gorgeous cat. Who is nearing 13 and i love him with all my heart. 
Anyway. Hope to chat to you soon as looks.bit quiet on here!
Lisa x x


----------



## AMD

Hi tippy I have seen and chatted to you previously on the site. Been very quite on here for a while.  A dog sounds a great idea. I have a german shepherd which we got as a puppy but my dog before was a rescue dog. I got her at 18mnths but she was badly beaten and starved locked in a cupboard in her own mess and had 6 homes prior to me. She was hard work (but so has the puppy)but I had 12 amazing years with her. We lost her 2 years ago to Cancer. I miss her alot it was me and her against the world. They are such a great comfort. I have been growing lots of fruit and veg which has been a huge success and lots of fun. Just something to focus on.


----------



## Rowan22

Hi AMD and Tippy and anybody else reading,
Yes, it's gone very quiet on here. AMD, I'm sorry about the cancelled 40th birthday party. That's tough! How is the business going now? Are you likely to be able to afford to treat yourself in the future?
Tippy, hi and welcome to the board no one ever wants to post on! We're a supportive bunch, really. It's just that our situation seems so static, while everywhere else on this forum people are doing things and their situations are changing, sometimes daily. We're just stuck with the grief and all the emotions that will never go and yet we have to go on trying to live our lives. I have yet more health issues, which doesn't help. 
We're still hoping a surrogate might take pity on us but though we've been with COTS for a year now, there's not been one enquiry. I don't know why. The renewal will come up soon and I suppose I'll pay it but it will be for one more year only. My dh is 60 next year and that does seem like a logical time to stop. The unhappiness won't go, though and neither will the feelings of anger and jealousy when I'm faced with other people and their families. It's all so incredibly unfair.
I hope you have a good season after all those renovations, AMD.

Take care, everybody,

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Hey Rowan. Sorry to hear about your health probs. Right in the middle of renovations now. It's all happening on the work and building front. Just in an odd mood lately. Hard to snap out of it. Feel so angry over all that has happened. Maybe reality of situation kicking in. Working hard to get my fitness back up and shift the last of the weight I gained through treatment. Yes it is very unfair and can relate to all you have said.xx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi AMD,

I hope the renovations are finished soon and you get a chance to relax. I should think you really need it!
I know what you mean about the moods. At times I think they'll never go. I don't know what you can do about them as they certainly won't be shifted by force. I suppose all we can do is just live with them. I do get annoyed with myself when I end up snapping at somebody, though, simply because I feel so rotten. 
We've now got the chance to try surrogacy but though I was ecstatic when I first heard, all the feelings are coming back again, together with enormous guilt because I feel I should be carrying my own child (except that it wouldn't be mine genetically, anyway). I also can't help resenting the fact that my dh won't give donor egg IVF a go because he doesn't think it will work with all my health issues and we can't afford multiple attempts. And none of this affects the fact that this is a wonderful woman who's agreed to help us and I should be over the moon! 
Oh, why couldn't we just make love and get pg like most people?!   

Rowanxxx


----------



## AMD

I can understand your Dh fears having had 7 attempts with donor egg in the UK & abroad & I too have many health issues. DE does work for many though & some first time but I have noticed the positive results have come from those with low egg reserve & no other health issues. Others with several attempts with positives have gone done the immune route as I did with many costly tests which for me still did not work. Alot of debt 5 years and endless heartache is our result of donor egg treatment.

Wishing you lots of luck with whatever path you choose.xx


----------



## Rowan22

Thanks, AMD  

I had to have the dreaded smear test this afternoon and I was talking to the nurse about it all. She said that she didn't think it would be safe for me even to try to get pg now, my body's struggling enough as it is, especially as the sugar levels still aren't where they're supposed to be. Basically, I have to give up on the idea of carrying my own or even a donor conceived child. She was pleased about the surrogacy possibility, though (I always expect people to disapprove. I wonder why?)
I think you're probably right that donor egg tx is fine if your only problem is age and/or few or no eggs. I'm sorry to hear about all those tests and the seven attempts (I didn't realise it was that many).   I know it's not about the money, of course it's not, but ending up with that much debt and still no child must be very hard to take. 
I hope all the renovations get finished soon and they bring your business the custom it deserves. 

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

It is difficult and frustrating. The cocktail of drugs made me so ill, each attempt had its issues & when you start you end up on a rollercoaster which is hard to stop. We have withdrawn from our lives, no longer see friends, hid ourselves away as no one around us can understand what its like not to have a family. Avoid parties or get togethers. I thought it would get easier as time went on. But I am finding each day harder. A client was talking about grandchildren. It's odd to think I will never be a mum or a grandma, always just the two of us!


----------



## Rowan22

AMD   

Oh yes, the grandchildren issue! I have friends who are grandparents. In their case it's partly because of two teenage pgs (grrr!) but the fact remains that they're grandparents. 
Yes, it's hard and I don't know when it ever gets any easier. We've withdrawn, too, in fact I didn't go to a family wedding because they were having kids present and I just couldn't take it. I've spent years in this position and ever time I even think of going anywhere I do an audit in my head. Will there be children? How many? Will there be anywhere we can go to get away from the families because seeing them all hurts so much? I've missed a lot of great events over the last few years. It never ends, does it?
My dh is dead against the IVF rollercoaster. If we had tried it, we 'd have had one attempt only. He categorically refuses to consider more than that and most of our savings are his contribution. I've never been able to save money, I've been ill too much. 
We're going to try to enjoy the summer and just take this possibility one step at a time. I'm thrilled that a kind person is offering to do this for us but we'll be moving quite slowly, I think.
Take care of yourself   

Rowanxx


----------



## Rowan22

Hi to anybody still reading this thread.

We heard today that the prospective surrogate has pulled out after our first meeting with her. This is worrying, as we don't know if it was our fault, something we said or didn't say, etc but basically I am just stunned right now. I feel like someone playing Snakes and Ladders who's got a tiny way up a small ladder, only to land on that great big snake that goes all the way back to square one.

What do we do now, I wonder? We can't afford to go somewhere like America for surrogacy, we don't have that sort of money. But on the other hand, I still can't just give up. 

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Oh no Rowan so sorry to hear that. Do you not get feedback as to why? Have you considered adoption?x


----------



## Rowan22

Hi AMD,

Thanks for replyingxx. We did get a little feedback from COTS and there were obviously one or two misunderstandings, though we tried to be as open and honest as we could. What didn't help was that my dh likes to fix anything that goes wrong rather than buying new objects and the surro happened to see a photo of the innards of an appliance he was going to fix among a lot of other photos. It seems that she then thought we couldn't afford her, which isn't true, we just happen to be fairly eco friendly and don't throw out things if they can be fixed. 
We've tried adoption. We tried five different agencies and we've more or less run out of them in our area. The council rejected us on the grounds of my health and because my dh has had a bout of depression in the past. That was another massive blow because after all, the various conditions I suffer from are not actually my fault. 
Don't know what to do now. We'd waited a year for this chance. Like you in your sig, we sometimes just feel cursed. 

Rowanxx


----------



## AMD

Has your husband overcome his depression & is he on any meds still? Hope you don't mind me asking what are your health issues seems harsh to be rejected on that.


----------



## Rowan22

Not at all, AMD. I  had hyperthyroidism (Graves disease), which left me with diabetes and coeliac disease. I also have arthritis. My dh has been off the meds for ages but that didn't seem to make any difference. I think depression is like a red rag to a bull to social workers. The one we had from the council seemed to think that dh would get depressed again if things started to get difficult. 

Rowanxx


----------



## Livelife

Sorry I joined this thread then been rubbish at posting!
Rowan I'm so sorry to read what happened with the surrogate that is so unfair. And the reasons for being turned down for adoption seem equally unfair. How many totally unfit parents do we see out there who just keep popping them out then people who would give the earth for a child get refused. Argh!!!


AMD and Rowan it makes me so sad to think that you hide away from social events. Life can be quite hard but I think without my social life I don't know what I'd do. I'm lucky in that I have quite a close friend who is also sadly childless so we are able to have many a drunken night putting the world to rights. 
I do find it hard sitting in my front garden at times. You see the  2 sets of neighbours between them have 5 small kids who play outside in our pedestrianised street. I sometimes think that I'm not worth talking to cos I have no kids like I'm some sort of second class citizen as I haven't reproduced. They will stand and chat to one another as if I'm not there. 


Debs how are you getting on with your springer? Tippy did you get your dog?


Has anyone had any nice holidays? We had a lovely week near Nice and are of the the lakes with the dogs next weekend. Hoping for more good weather.


Xx


----------



## AMD

Rowan the worlds gone mad! The fact your DH dealt with depression and moved on should be a positive. Everyone gets depressed at some point in some way, it's life. Your health issues are all manageable. There are many disabled people who have children. It's so ridiculous. Your DH sounds like mine. Loves up cycling and I have to say its good fun and a great thing to teach children. We were considering adoption bit I worry about having turners syndrome, arthritis and had 3 spinal surgeries learnt to walk again but in need of further spinal surgery. Doesn't stop me working I'm so god damn determined. Also we are building an extension for my parents to move into as need care and I have been told that would go against us adopting as I will be looking after them.

Live life it's easier to avoid social events as there is little understanding when you can't and don't have children. We are far from supported from those around us and having had 7 attempts at donor egg ivf we are considered neurotic and would do anything to have a child ie donor egg. But that was my only option as I have no eggs but got tired of explaining to people about turners.

Rowan myself and DH see many clients at work like yourself and we teach coping mechanisms for being positively childless as so to speak. Have you see a therapist?

My DH has bought me a puppy for my upcoming 40th birthday. 6 week old german shepherd puppy. She is adorable. My 2 year old shepherd has adapted well. Love my dogs. The puppy is currently upto mischief so must go. Stay strong ladies. Xx


----------



## Livelife

Aah a German shep puppy how cute! We had panic with our cocker pup yesterday he had to go to animal a and e. he'd been slobbering a lot the night before but yesterday morning his face was completely swollen and he could hardly open his eyes. He was still madly running round wagging tail though. Turns out he'd been stung in mouth and had allergic reaction. Poor thing had to have a jab which made him cry! Cost us a fortune as emergency app but I would hav paid anything, he's my baby. Pleased to report his head is a normal size today. I know I'd have loved a family but my dogs are a damn good substitute they just never cease to make me smile. 


Xx


----------



## wanttoflyaway

Rowan ... I'm so sorry your surrogate didn't work out - gutted for you -   something works our for you - you so deserve it - and thank you for all the kind words you sent my way - your turn now    thinking of you xx


----------



## TippyToes

Is there anyone one here still?? !!


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## AMD

I'm still here!! This thread is very quiet.


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## TippyToes

Hi Ladies! sorry i havent posted for a while. Been getting my life back together again. I was let down with last puppy, but Im pleased to say that this time its REALLY happening! I pick up my little staffie pup Toby on 15th November. I am soooooooo excited! Finally get a baby, even though its a dog. Love him already! How is everyone else?? Hows things AMD?
Lisa x


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## Rowan22

Hi AmD and Tippytoes,

Not been on here much as unfortunately nothing about my situation has changed and I'm having to endure the wretched grieving process for the family I'll never have. I suppose other people are in the same place and that's probably why this board is so quiet, our situations just never change, do they? There's still nothing from COTS and though we did look at alternative agencies, their fees are extortionate, especially if you go to the States. I've been thinking about adoption again but after all the previous rejections it just  feels like flogging a dead horse. 
AMD, what sort of season did you have for your business? I hope it was a good one. 
Tippytoes, congrats on the puppy! I hope you have a lot of fun with him. 

Rowanxx


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## rainbowsandbubbles

Hi I thought I'd share my story which is a bit sad and a bit happy!

Hubby had a vr in 2009 but it wasn't meant to be and I found myself having a hysterectomy at the end of last year. It was really tough before the op, but once it was done a weight was lifted as I knew my fate. I don't want to adopt maybe some day I will but I don't think adoption should just be a natural progression/step after infertility. But that's a whole other post!

Anyway so yesterday I launched my first business it's www.uniqueandboutiqueltd.co.uk I must say I am so proud, because during infertility I felt worthless at times. What was my purpose in life, well I got into painting as a hobby and things have just progressed. So yes that's my little news to share!

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites.


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## AMD

Hi tippy toes how exciting a new pup. Have fun! My puppy is now 4 mnths old & full of mischief. My 2 year old dog has been so ill. Had to go in a specialist hospital. Diagnosed with idiopathic epilepsy. He has had so many seizures. Poor chap. Just had my 40th birthday. Another reminder of having no family. Fell and broke my rib & living in a building site for last 2 years is getting to me. No heating cooking on a camping stove all driving me mad not to mention arrogant tradesmen. Other than that I'm ok thanks.

Rowan business is good thanks. My clients are loving the forest location. I was in the daily mirror. Was a piece on arthritis and yoga with myself & arthritis research. I train so many with arthritis and thanks to the advert now have a waiting list. I know how you feel regarding situation never changing. I feel I am constantly watching others lives. Always sat on the sidelines. Missing out on what most take for granted. I do try to stay positive and focused but its always there nagging! 

Rainbows welcome. Good luck with you business.


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