# Poor Responder........part 42



## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

New home ladies... 

Love, luck & sticky vibes

   

Natasha x


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

Thanks Natasha  

xx


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks Natasha xx


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

Hi Girls

Just a quick question.. when taking DHEA did your cycles get shorter when taking it ??


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Sorry Popsi, I don't know! I didn't notice a difference, and I took it for four months.


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## TracyM (Jan 10, 2008)

ALEGRIA    I have been testing early, i,m so impatient. I,m 18dpEC and 13dpET so I believe that if it was gonna happen it would have done before now.

In case anyones on symptom watch, not that I want to worry anyone, but I felt it helped me.  I had twinges during the first week and sore (.)(.). By the time 2nd week started,I had AF pains, was convinced it was gonna start. However about 5 days ago all signs just dissapeared. No AF pains, no sore (.)(.). No nothing. Have had no bleeding or spotting either. OTD tomorrow , tested early... negative. 

However, I have already made a followup appointment (thats how sure I am) and will see consultant on Wednesday. I dont let the grass grow, do I.? I need to have a plan for the future to help cope with the negatives.

I will post officially tomorrow the result to be updated on the list. 
Somewhere, there is still hope that I have one more test to do.


Hope all you other girls are doing ok


TracyM


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Rant of the day from me.

Had a performance with GP's this morning, waited nearly an hour as he was running late then when I got to see him and gave him the referral from my clinic he just said you need to make an ante-natal appointment for a home visit and that was it. Didn't take any details or anything.  So I phoned to book appointment and got told I needed a wee sample to prove I was pg, told her I'd had bloods done so off she went to check in notes, 5 mins later came back and said 'there's nothing in the notes from clinic'.  Erm no there wouldn't be since GP didn't bother to take any information from me, it took about 10 mins to explain that I don't need it confirming, know my exact dates etc etc.  Finally she took my details and said the midwife will ring to arrange visit,grr....


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Typical! And just the sort of thing that when you're tentatively celebrating in early pregnancy you don't need. It's like they've never come across a pregnant woman before, and when you mention tx you become even more of an alien.

It DOES get better though - once they've got you in the system it gets easier.

xxxx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Girls,

Nicki Texted me earlier, Emily Alice was born this afternoon naturally weighing 6lb 9oz.  Both doing fine.     

Maybe someone can do her a nice fancy colourful post!!!  I'm bit thick!

XX


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

As for me well still no symptoms, very worried as was up all night with pains.  Tried to call EPU to arrange scan but they kept passing me to person to person and giving my differnt numbers to call, ended up crying my eyes out like a crazy lady at London Bridge station.  I absolutely convinced i'm gonna miscarry any moment.

Totally shattered so gonna have early night.
Love to you all. XXXX


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Nicky and DH on the birth of your baby girl, Emily Alice



Wishing you a lifetime of love and happiness x x x


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura- if you don't get any sense on Tuesday go to A & E and demand a scan x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes Beach... something fancy like that!!

Went to A&E last time and they don't have a scanner they send you to EPU in the morning!!  I think I was just too tired and emotional today to deal with people... especially in a crowded place!


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

CONGRATULATIONS  

NICKY and DH

on the birth of

*Emily Alice*

wishing you lots of love, good health and happiness as a family always

xxx Steph xxx 

            
​


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Awwww, Steph and Beach - you're so good with all that stuff!

Congratulations, Nicks! Wonderful news - hope it's all not too scary!
I'm sure you're doing brilliantly - welcome to the world, little one!

Laura - I felt just the same. It's so upsetting - no one seems to take your concern seriously, telling you there's nothing they can do if it is going wrong - don't they nuderstand how reassuring a bloody scan would be? Eejits.

EPU in the morning would be good - they made me wait a week! But they did do my bloods.

xxxx


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## sjc (Apr 27, 2006)

HI Laura

Just wanted to reassure you really after seeing your posts.  I don't think they would see much if they scanned you as your so early, you could arrange to have your hcg bloods done every two days at a local clinic or go to one of the medical centres (there is one in Harley street, London Bridge).  You could also ask your GP for tests and pay privately for them at your local hospital but the results may not come back that day, privately they will.  I didn't have any symtoms as all, my boobs started to hurt around 8 weeks.  Hope this helps.

Miranda thank you for the info.

Congratultions Nick.

Hi to everyone.


Sam xx


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

congratulations Nicky and your husband!

you must be over the moon!!!

now, we need some more.....


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## Guest (May 24, 2008)

to Nickster and DH on the safe arrival of Emily Alice           and what a lovely name too.  Well done - hope the birth wasn't too traumatic?!

Mira - You're next  

Laura - Hope you're feeling better this morning  

Tracy -    

xxxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Good Morning

It's lovely and sunny so far, just having a quiet morning at home then off to friends for the weekend x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I know, Emma - and I'm scared now! 

Gawd, I wish I could sleep in - always end up going for an afternoon nap after waking stoopidly early. Think I'm turning into my parents...

My hospital got my blood results in a few hours, and my GP was quick, too, once I'd impressed on them all how anxious I was.

The symptoms do come and go at this stage, Laura. Hope you get some reassurance soon.

Beach - early Scramble bird! I'll get on to it now.

Hi Sam! 

xxxxxxx


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

*Congratulations Nicki!! What a pretty name 

Welcome to the world Emily Alice 

Love, Rachel, Lucy and Emma xxx*


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

Congratulations Nikki and DH xx what wonderful news and a beautiful name 

Lots of love Andrea xxx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I tell you I am completey mad!  Boobs hurting again this morning so I am back to happily reading my preg books!    I do really need to get somethign sorted out as I am going to have a heart attack soon, yesterday I was practically crying all day at work.  

Emma & Mirra - I'm too busy worrying about keeping my baby in to worry about it coming out! But sure it will be a worry in time.  You'll both be fine! Just take all the drugs on offer!

Steph- How you feeling?

Merse - All organised for the funeral, hopefully things will get easier after that.  

SAm - Thanks for the reassurance.  

Right as I'm up early (for me) may go and do some jobs. 

XX


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## TracyM (Jan 10, 2008)

CONGRATULATIONS  Nikki and DH  on the birth of your daughter.


Well, for me its BFN, but I,m not too downheartened. Have already made plans for next round. 3rd time lucky eh?

TracyM


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Tracey - So sorry honey, I was sure you would get a BFP with 2 blasts.    

XX


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## TracyM (Jan 10, 2008)

Laura  You once said to me, that everyone who cycles with you ends up PG.  LOL

Well I,m really pleased it was you this time. Take care, look after yourself and those little ones.
I will be watching out to see how many you end up with.

TracyM


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all, 

*Tracey* - so sorry it didn't work this time hon  - such a disappointment I know  sending you lots of    to you 

*Popsi* - taking the DHEA didn't affect my cycle at all - it stayed as regular as always! But am sure we are all different and are affected in different ways!

*Beach* - enjoy your weekend at your friend's 

*Nicks* - hope you are soon recovered/not too sore and able to get home and enjoy motherhood! Can't wait to see a photo of your little girl - love the names by the way 

Miranda, Emma, Alegria, SJC - 

Everybody else - 

*Laura* - glad your boobs have gone sore again and you're on the up! 

I'm not feeling too bad - struggling a bit not to have a  day - I always have one about halfway through the 2ww, I think everybody does. No symptoms to report - feel very normal and EC last week feels like it was months ago! Come on PMA!   

Going out for a nice Chinese meal tonight with friends, looking forward to having something to take my mind off! Have got a really busy week next week which is good 

Hope you are all enjoying the 

Steph xx


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## *Lollipop* (Feb 1, 2007)

Hi ladies,

Just lost a big,big post here is the shortened version as comp playing up no internet for days.... 

Congrats...Nic on the birth of Emily Louise..... ...Love to you all...xxxxx

..for our Steph....

Merse  ...xxx

Mir -  

Beach and Laura -  ...hope you are both well...xxxx

as for me AF from hel* so def not PG....also reckon these pains are from all that medication I took so def wont be doing that again..just dont know the damage it is doing inside...with my endo etc...

Still sorting out house,...hope everyone is well...love to you all and take care...xxxxxx


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## *Lollipop* (Feb 1, 2007)

P.S Tracey   ..sorry honey..here's to looking forward.....


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Tracy - I'm really sorry, I had high hopes for you with 2 blasts


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Nicks and DH - CONGRATULATIONS on the arrival of your little princess!!!!!!!! 
       

Welcome to the world Emily Alice!!!!

Alegria xxx


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## Guest (May 25, 2008)

Tracy -     So sorry that it wasn't positive.  Do you have a plan about what you'll do next?  I always find that helps    

Steph - Hang on in there hun        

Laura - Hope you're managing to relax a little  

xxx


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

Huge hugs Tracy   Glad you've got the future in hand though. I found after a few days I was raring to go againa nd try new things. It's the determination to succeed   You WILL get your dream   

Love, Rachel xxxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Morning!

Tracy - I'm so sorry it didn't work this time. You had a good chance there and it's so disappointing when everything was looking so good.

So, what are your plans? I found that helpful too - making plans for the next cycle.

Glad you have a busy first week, Steph! Makes the second week madness a little easier.

Well we were meant to be going to a barbecue this afternoon, but it's been raining all night and shows no sign of stopping. I don't think it's going to happen, somehow.


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

Nicki --- so very pleased for you to have brought Emily Alice into the world! Congrats! And more importantly, have fun!!

cath J -- good luck next scan. Will be thinking of you.  I had an awful experience in Jan/Feb where my betas kept doubling, but I started bleeding...lots.  Turned out I miscarried (I think it was a blighted ovum) but the important thing to remember is that it's not all doom and gloom.  My sonographer told me of a woman in my then-shoes who bled profusely for 9 weeks...only to have three healthy triplets.  I know bleeding is not your issue, but I just highlight that as a good example of the "obvious" diagnosis (me) and the hopeful outcome (the mum of now triplets).  So keep positive...

laurab -- keep 'em on board!

TracyM --- so sorry about your BFN.  I'm a big believer in 3rd time lucky as my One Egg Wonder occurred on my third attempt!!

Alegria -- thanks for your positive thoughts.

As for my, I've been testing daily since 7dpo. Today is 12dpo. Still consistently negative, so I am not expecting a good outcome.  I am a bit down as this is our sixth attempt...though No 3 resulted in One Egg Wonder last year.  I'd kind of hoped that I'd produce a sibling for One Egg Wonder on my third attempt.  But it doesn't look like it.  At £4500 a pop for IVF+ICSI (the Lister puts its rates up annually), this is getting kind of expensive.  I've done three cycles since Xmas (though one kindly paid for by a third party) and my AMH is really low, suggesting I don't have a lot of time left.  So I'm like a new tech company --- my cash burn rate is high, but nothing to show for it...

Good luck to the others who are testing soon!

Terry


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

Miranda - we were goign to barbecue yesterday but didn't as it said it would rain later. However, it didn't and was a lovely day and evening   Thought we might try today but hey, it's raining here too! All night and hasn't stopped since we got up     Looks like being a long day as the girls really want to go outside but it's raining quite hard and they have colds so I have said no.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I've got my traditional change-in-the-weather sore throat too! Typical.   

Looks like a baking/colouring in day for you then!

I'm just bidding on Winnie the Pooh stuff, but it's at least stopped raining here. Might take the doggles out. I hate grey skies tho - it's nearly June! What's going on?

On the plus side, I sowed rocket, leaves and spinach yesterday, so they've had a good water...

Is there anywhere undercover you can take them cheaply?


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## pobby (Jun 2, 2005)

Hello girls, i hope you don't mind me crashing your thread. am a friend of Nickis and just wanted to post a congratulations message...so here it is!



[fly]CONGRATULATIONS NICKI AND DH ON THE BIRTH OF YOUR LITTLE ANGEL![/fly]
        

I hope you arent too tired (or sore!) and are enjoying getting to know your little girl...well done sweetie you have done a fantastic job!
Thanks for that girls..hope you are all enjoying the Bank hol..Laura, I hope that you manage to get an early scan for a bit of reassurance  yes, you are right, it was abandoned cycles where we last spoke!
Good luck Miranda for the birth of your little one, hope it all goes smoothly. Hi to everyone else
Love Pobby xxx


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## bugle (Dec 26, 2007)

Hello everyone - 

Happy bank Holiday!!!

Congrtulations Nicks on the birth of Emily Alice - I'm so excited for you!!!!!

Laura - glad symptoms are back - I have exactly the same - I think Mirrs idea of a shared scanner that we could all pass round would be good!

Beach - I sympathise with you about the GP - sounds like my experiences, and when I got to see the midwife it was no better!!!

Mirr I love the sound of Bob's room - how exciting - not long now!!!

Steph   

Hello to everyone else - lots of      - Cath Tracey Terry Rachel Alegra Emma and Gabs!!!!!

I am on half term this week and then have my 12 week scan the week after. Still worrying and obsessing over symptoms, lack of symptoms, reducing medication and anything else I can find to occupy my mind!!!! DH just gone to Dubai for a couple of days so must get some work done - report writing time of the year again!


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi all hope you are all good - 

Nicki - Congratulations to you both on the birth of Emily Alice, such a lovely name.  Well done and hope all 3 of you are doing well x x 

Tracy   sorry to hear your news, sounds like you are staying positive though  

Steph - how's the 2WW going    

Not been around much lately as been away for the weekend and have stayed away from FF over the last few days, not sure what's going on as all my symptoms seemed to have disappeared, no sore (.)(.), no more feeling sick and no more twinges last signs I had were last Thursday.  HPT still has strong line though.  Can symptoms just disappear?? Roll on Thursday when I have my scan.

Anyway, don't want to put a downer on everyone else, so hope you all enjoy the rest of the BH if this rain stops that is.

Hi to everyone else I've missed.  Swoo x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hello,

Just back from Notts.  Tired.  Looking forward to a lay in tomorrow but last 3 mornings I've worken up earl with sore throat snotty nose and feeling hot.  Then I get up and I'm better!! 

Had a text from Nicks, she is home now and tired but is gonna be back soon to post us a piccy!

Tracey - Sorry you didn't get preg this time.. I honesty normally am good luck!  But its great you have a plan, that always picks me up!

Mirra - We was going to have a BBQ today at Tims sisters but it was cancelled!  Oh glad you got some veggies in though, so this mean your not gonna be moving?

Steph- COme on...not like you to lose the PMA!    

Swoo - I had no symptoms on Friday... its seems its just another cruel thing our body does!!  You must be excited to have a scan in sight!

Gabs- Hello!

Merse -Hope things are ok with you.  

Bugle- I'm SO jealous of you being nearly 12 weeks!! And being on half term!

Terry - 12 dpo is still early to get a bfp, don't give up yet!

Emma - Nope, no relaxing!  I'm having lots of pains and had another little bit of blood again... boobs sore though.  I'm really consitipated, think that may be responsible for my pains actaully.

Hello to the rest of the gang.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Morning

Can't believe how quickly this weekend is flying by and that tomorrow is back to work


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Morning!

Laura - we haven't had a viewing in ten weeks of marketing our place, so we've decided to take it off the market for the time being. No one's getting viewings at all - and one of the local agents have closed, so I think the situation's not going to get any better. With any luck we can hang on here - I do love it.
Oo, constipation - nasty. Get some butternut squash down your neck!

Swoo - symptoms really do come and go. Roll on your scan!

Bugle - are you on countdown to mat leave yet?   You must get good leave being a teacher. So jealous!

Thanks for the well wishes Pobby! I'm terrified now - it all seems so close...

Morning Beach!
Should I be Scrambling? I'll go check.

Poor DH - hasn't had a good night's sleep in days because of my snoring. I'm sleeping on my side too, so I don't know what I can do to ease the situation. Maybe those nasal strips?

xxxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Morning Mir- I'll goa nd scramble now, think the housing market has really quietened down hasn't it, hoping it picks up soon x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I've Scrambled!

Crappy weather again this morning - when's summer due to start?


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Morning!  

It's grey and wet here in SW London too... and yep, the housing market is dead as a dodo, we took our house off the market after several weeks of no viewings, glad the for sale board came down, it felt as a bit of a joke having it in front of the house at the mo....


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

It gets embarrassing, having that sign up, doesn't it? Ah well.

Come on sun! Where are ya?

What's everyone doing today? I can't be arsed doing anything in this weather - not even stuff inside. Might dye my eyebrows.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hello,

I had a little bit of blood this morning so feeling all anxious and worried again.  Still just a tiny bit but its pretty consistent, think its getting slightly worse.  Got cramps too.  Will call the EPU tom and get my scan sorted.

Beach - I know I really don't want to go to work tom, got a really tough day tom, hopefully removing somone from there abusive father so prob a long day.  

Mirra - maybe its for the best, you love your house and happy there so maybe its a blessing housing market rubbish at the mo?

Algeira - Raining here too!

XX


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'd say the best thing would be to go to A&E Laura, because they'll arrange a scan for much sooner than your GP. They were lovely with me - I got three HCGs with them, too, one on a Sunday.

Ugh, that sounds like a helluva day you've lined up tomorrow. Hope it's as painless as poss.

I don't know about blessing - with any luck Pete can boost his income with an HGV licence, but he has to get on with the theory test or he'll never do it!

xx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

QUick post from me as just up from another afternoon nap....

Laura   go to A & E and see what they can sort out.    Hope tomorrow goes ok, will be thinking of you x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Went A&E last time and there was nothing they would do they just said to go the EPU in the morning so for all the stress of sitting in A&E I may as well just stay here.  Feeling fine at the moment, well shattered but fine.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Every hospital's different I guess!  

God, I've been bored today. nothing seems appealing to do with no sunshine - even cleaning the bathroom!

Beach - you're getting into the afternoon nap habit early! Get in training I say. I'd have had one, but I went back to bed this morning after seeing the weather.

xx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Well I really can't be bothered to do anything, feeling really shttered.    I had so many plans for today, sorting the wardrobe and cleaning the bathroom, bathing the cat!  Done nothing and can't muster the energy to do anything either.

Maybe I should have another nap... or shall I google more about miscarriages?!


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## matchbox (Dec 17, 2006)

Hi girls!

this is my 1st IVF and I had my first follicle scan (day 10) this morning. I had 1 follicle measuring 12mm, 2 follicles 10mm and few small ones on the right ovary. Left ovary got few small follicles but she wasn't bothered measuring them because they were too small (my left ovary was always a bit lazy). 
Anyway I felt really down because maybe I was expecting more after 9 days of stimms. I was on 2amps a day, now I am on 4amps a day. My next scan is on Wednesday . Did any of you had the same experience?

I have to say congrats to all BFP, Miranda great Bump! 

Andi
xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Ta, Andi!

But you know, I wouldn't say you're a poor responder - you've been on an incredibly low dose and produced multiple follicles! So do take heart. And one of those follies could be the one!

Your first IVF is a learning curve - they find out how you respond to the drugs and hope you respond to the dose they've chosen to give you. But even when they thought there was nothing wrong with me I was on 3 amps of menopur to start with, so two seems tiny.

Hopefully this cycle will work anyway, and you won't have to go through another cycle with a different protocol. 

I would say that leaving it till day 10 to check how your follies are doing is a ridiculously long time - what are they playing at? Even in this country my first scan was after only a few days, and in Turkey I had scans every other day from the start. How on earth were they going to know if anything was going wrong and whether to adjust your dose? What clinic are you at?

ANYway, having said all that, it only takes one! And often the eggs will be much better quality when you have been on such a low dose. It's quality, not quantity that counts when you only have the option of having two put back.

You should notice a real difference by Wednesday - the best of luck!

xxxxxxx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

hi all - will post more later or tomorrow.  Just back from weekend in Glasgow for a wedding.

Thrilled to hear about Emily Alice! 

Kate still fine - it's nine weeks now or thereabouts!


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## matchbox (Dec 17, 2006)

Miranda, I am with Liverpool Womens Hospital. I am glad you pointed out it's strange having a first scan after 10 days. That's what I thought from beginning. I just hope they know what they are doing.
Will see what happens in 2 days. I actually remember telling them I am not responding great with Menupor. 
Thanks for your reply!
Not long to go, are you excited? 

Andi
xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Terrified!  

And fed up with the number of people who say rubbish like 'oo, get some sleep now - you won't have any soon!' (like you can bank sleep to use later) and 'this is the easy bit! You wait till he's here!' (as they see me puffing up a hill on a hot day grappling with the dogs)

It's on the tip of my tongue to tell them the struggle we had to get to this point and how I wouldn't swap their so called baby hassles for the world.

I'm dreading all the advice I'll get when he's out...

Whoops - realised I broke into a rant then! Must be all this grey weather.

Yes, 10 days is ages and ages - anything could have happened. Some people could have over-stimulated, even at that dose - I just don't understand why they leave it so long! I'm sure they know what they're doing when it comes down to it - but one thing they're definitely doing is cutting corners.



xx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I've just realised that I am about to tuk into my 4th curry since my BFP!  Is that a craving?   

You know i have done nothing all day, laid in bed eating rubbish!  I'm already dreading going back to work tomorrow... its really too early to get a maternity leave ticker isn't it?? 

Mirra - Nicks said the birht was ok, she had a an epidural... are you planning to have all the drugs offered?  Or you fancying au natural?  You will be fine, you just have to remember its only one day out of the whole of your life and then you'll have your little Bob!

Matchbox- Your on such a low dose i wouldn't call you a PR, loads of room for adjustments!  Good Luck!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oo, I'll have the drugs if it gets too much! I don't think one can plan for anything like that.

Hopefully I'll be in water, so the edge will be taken off the pain.

I don't think it's a craving - didn't you used to have lots of curry before?


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all 

sorry I've been quiet - trying to stay away from FF/not obsess - not much to report here - now halfway through PUPO limbo-land! - boobs a little sore (but no more than normal for this time of month - and I have been prodding them a lot!  ) - feel soooo tired and lethargic all the time - and can't stop eating!  The usual 2ww madness basically! 

*Terry* - am  that you get a positive result when you test tomorrow    - good luck hon 

*Laura* - good luck tomorrow 

*Matchbox* - welcome to the thread  - good luck with your treatment - remember quality is a lot more important than quantity - I hope you get some tip-top eggs   

*Swoo* - good luck for scan on Thursday hon   

*Bugle* - hope you enjoy half term break 

*Nicks* - hope you are recovering well and having a lovely time with Emily and DH getting to know eachother 

*Pobby *- hi and good luck with your DE treatment - are you off to Reprofit? - when are you going? I'm booked in there for September if all else fails beforehand!

*Mira, Beach, Alegria * and *LittleJen* -  - plus  to everybody else!

love Steph xxx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Steph - You haven't even got a ticker! Come on, your slipping!  All symptoms sound good to me!  

Mirra - I think I'd prob always like to eat that much curry but don't normally allow myself.. think maybe being preg is a good excuse to eat lots of yummy food?


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

*Laura* - is that better? (had to do some editing as have accumulated so much text!) 

Dunno about symptoms - I'm trying not to worry that I feel so similar to every other 2ww I've had  think the tiredness is from the drugs (and the general blah-ness of this weekend's weather! feels so chilly after Istanbul!), and like I said the boobs aren't any sorer than usually at this time of month - tis early days though    - I did just have a weird dizzy feeling while I was trying to seal an envelope just now - like a whirly head feeling - but this could be the clexane!  Oh, it's never-ending! 

Going to see my acupuncturist tomorrow so will see what she makes of it all!

Steph xx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Ooooh! Only five days Steph! It seems forever at this stage though, I know. Will you be doing any early testing?

Laura - yup, get it down you! You are eating for SIX, don't forget...

In fact, how much am I gagging to know how many have implanted? Gagging, I am.


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

I have an early day tomorrow so this will be a short one...

I'm 14 dpo and didn't test today.  13 dpo was negative.  I'm just going to go to the hospital tomorrow and have a beta and get it over with definitively. I've tempted fate a bit with a Pimms, a half glass of champagne and several Diet Cokes (all of which were verboten in my other cycles...that's how convinced I am that this one hasn't worked.)  I would be lying if I said I wasn't upset.  I did look back on my other postings and realise I had BFPs at Days 12 and 13 respectively on two of my past five cycles.  (Ironically, I can't recall what day I had my BFP for my One Egg Wonder!)  Some of my symptoms are the same as those times (migraine, fatigue, twinges down there) though those tend to be non-specific to pregnancy.  And I did have sore boobs up til day 10 on one occasion. Nothing this time.  So I have to look forward to the next cycle.  I just reviewed my old postings and realise my AMH was 0.8.  So time is not on my side.

Good luck to others testing soon.  Steph...others?


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Any news on your beta, Terry? Did it confirm what you thought?

I'm so sorry, ducks. Hope you're being taken care of. Plenty of wine and choccie, eh?

Where's everyone else? Are you all hiding?


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi all

Managed to get in for a scan today as been stressing and it's good news.......  A healthy heartbeat was seen. Couldn't believe it, so overjoyed.  Maybe I can relax a little now  

Steph -    hope your ok not long to go now

Laura - how you feeling today?

Any news on how Nicks and the new arrival are?

Hi to everyone else Swoo x x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

evening all,

Busy day today so not had a chance to call the EPU, hopefully will tomorrow.  Boobs sore but thats about it today no other symptoms.

Swoo - Thats fab news!  you must be over the moon!

Terry - Good Luck for tomorrow. 

Merse - Hope the funeral went ok today. XX

Mirra - what exciting stuff you done today?

Nicks - Hope you enjoying being a mummy!

Steph - not too much longer.  

Emma - Hows you?  felt LO anymore?

Love to everyone else. X


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all 

*Terry* - I really hope the beta showed a positive today    - have you got the result yet hon? Sending you lots of 

*Swoo* - fantastic news re your scan - so pleased for you  and hope you can enjoy being pregnant now 

*Laura* - good luck with EPU tomorrow   

*CathJ* -  that you will have good news at your scan tomorrow hon - good luck!   

Acupuncture was lovely today - really relaxing - had another dizzy spell afterwards  - think its the blood thinners.

 to everybody else - gotta go dinner is ready!

Steph xxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Evening, just waiting to watch the Apprentice.

Swoo- that's fantastic news, have they discharged you?


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

oh me too beach... love it!!  Confusing me as its Tuesday!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I was doing the monthly shop, Laura! So exciting in a way - just had a Magnum-style ice cream from Aldi and now I may have some Wheat Crunchies! I love full cupboards.

Swwo - brilliant news! Thank God for that - you must be so relieved.

Steph - dizzy spells sound suspiciously like symptoms to me!  

Beach - Everything is on at once! The Apprentice, Britain's Got Talent, The F Word... Argh!

xxx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh we went to Aldi on Sunday with Tim's mother, she bought us loads of bits, very exciting shop never been before... we got all sorts!  Yeah I always make myself sick on shop day, wanting to eat everything even if they don't go together!!

Tim's mum got us a toblerone at the weekend, we ate some last night in bed and tonight we can't find it!!  I reckon Tim ate it in his sleep!


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## ophelia (Sep 27, 2005)

Hi girls,

Trying to stay off FF so just a quick one to say huge congrats to Laura (I too want to know how many babies are in there ) and Swoo (great news on your scan )

Good luck to Steph, keeping my fingers crossed hun.    

Nicks- Congrats on the birth of your daughter. Can't wait to see some pics of the wee one. 

Miranda- How are you? Getting nervous/excited about giving birth yet?  When is your due date?

Good luck to all the girls undergoing TX/ about to start or in-between treatment and those who are pregnant.
Haven't had time to catch up properly so forgive me if I've missed any important news.

Love/Ophelia


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

ophelia - hope your doing ok,not too much longer til your back on the rollercoaster!   I think it'll be only the one... not many symptoms! 

Thank goodness Micheal has gone he drove me nuts! 

XX


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Its quiet on here these days?  

Right bed for me.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Sorry! I watched You're Fired and then got into the bath.

I'm off to bed too. Hungry, but I can't decide what to have.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Morning all

Well am glad that Alan finally saw the light and got rid of Michael....hope that Helene goes next as really don't like her.

It's absolutely p$$$$$g it down here this morning, raining buckets.


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

It is here too Beachgirl! Bucketing     I'm wondering if it will ever stop again! I am also praying that we don't have a summer like last year  

Rachel x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oh PLEASE no - the first summer I have lots of time off and it does this... typical!  
I just want to do a wee bit of gentle gardening, but it's thwarting me at every turn!

On the subject of Aldi, has anyone tried their day and night creams? They came top in two different surveys, and they're wonderful! They cost £1.89, and beat creams costing over 50 quid.
I got a baby changing bag yesterday, and Pete got ten T shirts and some shorts. Love it.
Plus, three cats can't be wrong - my last three cats won't eat anything else but Aldi pouches, which work out so cheaply, and their crunchies are just like Science Diet!

I'm so looking forward to the interviews in next week's Apprentice - they're so tough on the candidates.

Anyone know who got through on Britain's Got Talent?

xx


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## Nicki W (Nov 1, 2006)

Morning girls! Hope you are well and when I trawl back through the thread i hope to hear lots of good news!   
I'm sure Mirra and LB passed on my news that Emily was born 23/5/08 weighing 6lb 9oz. will post the birth story soon! Epidural was fab (had another 15 hours of labour after it so worth while!) but all my 'mates' in theatre were on stand by thinking I would be going under the knife so I was really chuffed when I pushed her out! 
Emily is a little treasure - I will post a pic soon! My tum still looks quite like the 37 week bump picture so you are not missing too much!  
Since pushing her out though the b*stard hernia has come back with a vengeance   so I'm even more limited than I was before. Dh is looking after me really well though. The GP is meant to visit this week so gonna ask to be refered to hospital for a scan etc. 
Looking forward to catching up with all your news girls!
Lotsa love
NW and EAW


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Hello!

So glad it went well - I'm trying to avoid horror birth stories at the moment!  

Oooh, poor you with that hernia - can they now operate on it?

I want to see a picture! So excited for you!

xxxx


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Nicks - so pleased all went well for you.  Can't wait to se a piccy.

Thanks for all your good wishes - yes I am so relieved all is well.  Beach yes I have been discharged now, unless I get worried about anything in the next couple of weeks.  I just need to contact my GP now and book in with them and the madwife.  Have you done that yet?

It was the Cheeky Monkies and Andrew Johnston who got through last night.  Really wanted Flava to get through as thought they were brilliant, but the Cheeky Monkies got it!!!!  They were really cute though and excellent dancers for their age.  I think I am now hooked to it, first series I've watched.

It's chucking it down here again too and realy misty I thought my eyes had gone funny when i looked out of the window first thing!!!!!  

Hi to everyone and have a good day Swoo x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Yep - saw that on GMTV just now - I do love the Cheeky Monkeys. They're so switched on and funny for 'cute' kid dancers!
But I loved Flava - and couldn't believe they came from Cornwall! Heh. Andrew Johnston had to get through after all the publicity. He's fab, too.

It's so weird, booking in with the madwife - I felt like a complete fraud! I still do in a way. My stepson's OH was squealing with joy over Bob's little outfits the other day, but I'm just not like that. I never had dolls growing up - thought they were freaky! I made my Snoopy a house with a snooker table and a rock garden instead.

And now I keep thinking, what if that huge donger we saw at 30 weeks was something else? That I'll have a three-legged girl? Honestly, the things that occur to you...

xxxx


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

I am putting off phoning the docs as it still seems so early, when do you need to book in with them??  I haven't been able to look at anything to do with babies since tx started, so might now give myself permission to have a little look.  Mind you I bet my mum will be out there looking already, she was so excited yesterday.  I bet next time I visit her she will have a cupboard full of things hidden away.

I'm sure you want be having a 3 legged girl!!!! x x


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## Guest (May 28, 2008)

Just a quickie from me as we have visitors.....again  

Nickster - Glad little Emily is well - hope your hernia sorts itself out soon.  

Swoo -      on seeing a heartbeat - you must be on  

LB - Hope you manage to book a scan today   

Mira - Aldi sounds fab, shame I'm 1000's of miles from one    

Hello to everyone else - have only skimmed over posts as I saw someone mention Britain's got talent and I'm embarrassed to say that my Mum is recording them for me and sending them to me on DVD - DH loves it more than me!  Anyway, I don't want to spoil the surprise of who wins.

 xxxxxx


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

ladies, i'm seriously considering jinemed.

The main reason is that Laura was allowed to transfer quite a few embryos, which I'm convinced at my age is most likely way to do the trick. I'm 39 and everything I read, alarmist though it may be and generated by the clinics of course, says I will have perhaps 90% bad eggs owing to "telomere and division" issues. and 4 iuis, 2 ivfs, and £20,000 and an unexplained diagnosis later, I have to concur that it's probably egg quality.

Any advice on going there? I'm old enough to remember when foreign hospitals were viewed with terror. of course now, I'm sure it's a different story but the feeling is still there and I need to get over that to proceed. 
also, I need gonal f, and gather they use menopur - presumably they wld do gonal f ( i respond massively better on a fifth of the dose of it!!!)

i looked at the J thread xxx

thanks for any thoughts

*edited by Mod


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I was on a mixture Anna - 300 Gonal F, 150 Menopur, plus letrazole tablets. I put my improved egg quality down to DHEA and lack of stress in Turkey. They use all the drugs, pretty much - they're very flexible.

You won't believe how much better they are over there, honestly. The equipment and clinic is much more modern, and you get to see a consultant every two days, so they can pick up anything that's going wrong.

Are you on DHEA?

Why not book up to have a consultation while the Jinemed crew are in London? Then you'll get a feel for what they are like.

Did you get proper feedback on whether it was sperm or eggs on your IVF cycles? It doesn't sound like it. I found they communicated better at the Jin than either of the places we've been here, despite English being about their third language.

Emma - we'll try not to spoil Britain's Got Talent for you! 

Got to go now - meeting mum for lunch and realised it's market day, so I'll struggle to park I think.

xxxxxxxx

*edited by Mod


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Anna - have you looked at their website yet? You'll find there the dates that they are next in London available for initial consultations: www.ivfturkey.com  

Dh and I are seriouly considering them as plan b for later this year in case our next cycle at the Lister doesn't work out.




/links


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

[alert]Members are reminded that FF does not condone or encourage self medicating[/alert]

DHEA is a steroid hormone and is not readily available in the UK ie you can not buy it over the counter, nor can it be prescribed.

For this reason, please discuss taking this with your consultant before self administering.

Take care & good luck 

Natasha


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

just spoke on phone to a nice helpful chap about it. 

i forgot to ask about EC and pain relief - any idea what they do? i've had two EC when I was completely out through sedation   and I'm not keen to start a new wideawake or even conscious trend!

freezing i also forgot about - can you bring FEs back here? is that a crzy idea or maybe people just hop on a flight and go off for a few days? I'm getting more comfortable about it (especially having seen the pool pictures ;-))

when is H required? presumably on day of EC and not again.


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Anna - I'm no expert on this but from what I've read, Jinemed seems to be a great option.  I would have heartily recommended it to Kate if she had not been so lucky as to be successful on her first cycle.  I was reading an article recently which was talking about why certain countries lagged behind others in terms of IVF success (it principally compared Europe and the US) and it concluded that the trend towards minimal embryo transfers was largely to blame.  Belgium apparently does particularly badly in terms of IVF success and the law there is that you can only transfer a single embryo.  Obviously, the flip side is the risk of a multiple birth but these days that is perfectly manageable.  Kate is going private for her next scan but they have all sorts of things in place to monitor twins.  Plus, it's not as if multiples are totally unknown to nature.  My grandmother conceived triplets naturally back in 1947.  

I also get the impression (and one of the Jinemed ladies will correct me if I am wrong) that they are inclined to look a bit more into all aspects what is actually going on with you as a couple rather than running a battery of tests and then categorising you.  I remember in particular how they told Laura she had every reason to be hopeful even if her cycle this time had not been successful - they didn't write her off as a "poor responder".  plus, as Miranda says, i am convinced relaxing is key to all this and the environment will realy help.  

I should imagine that being told your problem is "unexplained" is the most frustrating thing.  The label makes it seem as though you are to blame for the fact that the doctors whose wallets you are lining are unable to identify the problem.  Also, please don't assume your eggs are 90% bad just because of your age.  It seems to me that is an easy thing to pin the issue on when they can't explain what is wrong.  Kate is only a year younger than you and, despite predictions, there was nothing wrong with her egg quality at all.  There doesn't seem to be any evidence of poor egg quality in your case.

Good luck 

Miranda - hi there!

Swoo - so pleased to hear about the heartbeat!  You must be thrilled.

Laurab - hope you are doing ok and have a scan arranged.

Nicks - can't wait to see pics of little Emily Alice.  Sorry about the hernia though.  

Ophelia - nice to see you

Emma - enjoy BGT

hi to everyone I've missed....

Kate is doing fine - feeling pleased to have reached 9 weeks.  She is having a private nuchal scan as recommended by the ladies here at 12 weeks.  She is still very tired but the sickness is manageable. 

As for me - DP and I have pretty much agreed that one round of freezing eggs for me in case we split up will be followed by a round or two of freezing embryos (depending on my response to stims).  A horrible, horrible part of me is hoping that his swimmers are a bit dodgy so that it's not just my ancient ovaries which are on the table here...


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

wow Jenny, that's big news. the eggs followed by embryos I mean!!  
excellent. 

or maybe eggcellent.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Anna - I didn't have any pain following EC. They give you a GA for it - you won't be aware of a thing!

I don't think you can transfer frozen embryos in or out of the UK - think they come under one of the HFEA's many daft rulings. But check - I may be wrong.

I had a week out there on my own before DH came over. But the deal includes a double room with brekkie for both of you, so you could conceivably spend the whole time over there together.

My DH was operated on too, and the experience for him was amazing - over here, they charged £3,000, butchered him and told us there was no sperm there.
In Turkey, he was worried they hadn't done anything because it didn't hurt! The bruising came out later, but not painful. Plus, it was £500 and they found sperm straight away.

TBH, I found the experience much more frightening in the UK, because of the lack of communication over here. You get Romina's mobile number even, so if you have any queries you can get it sorted.

If you want to track my experiences over there, look at my posts from that time - Turkey's from page 153 of all my posts.

LilJen - hello dear!

Alegria - and you!

xxxxx


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

Miranda, yes that's what I was thinking of - either go on own or with a gf for first week then my husband come out. I am worried with the 1 week option that i'd be stressing constantly about whether my flight is the right day. 

I wonder how their success rates for after 2005 are...I think ill enquire as the 2005 ones for my age aren't as good as eg arm and a leg Lister.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Just in from work and going to read back through xxx


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## Guest (May 28, 2008)

Just got back in from the races and I'm seriously whacked    It is soooo hot and humid here - I'm dreading the next few months when it gets even hotter  

Thanks for not spoiling BGT for me - I don't have many TV pleasures in life as it's so cr*p out here - I'm such a saddo.

LilJen - IKWYM about that little part of you wanting DP swimmers to have a little difficulty. I found it very hard dealing with the fact it way all my fault we were facing tx - it's a hard burden to carry.  I'm sure your eggies will be fine after all the DHEA &  stuff you've pumped into your body over the past few months.

Off to bed now xxxxxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Anna - I was impressed by their success rates, but it's not regulated like here so I don't know how much you can read into it. For me it was the right option because I'm pretty stressed usually, and being right away from all the stresses helped me immeasurably.

Emma - I wish it was hot here! It's been piddling all day.

Afternoon, Beach!

xx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Hiya Mir- it still raining here too, got my sciatica back and am sure it's caused by rain


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Rain just makes me feel piddled off and run down! And I've had a clicky hip all day...

Come on sun!


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm going to pipe in with a few thoughts on today's postings --- please take them for what they are --- just thoughts! 

-- Multiple transfers: OK, I was all for this in CYCLe No 1 (now just concluded No 6).  Plus I'm 39 with an AMH of 0.8.  So I think that qualifies me in some way to speak and say...I actually don't think it's great to transfer more than 2 embryos.  I thought I'd be in a position of having 3 this cycle and had to research the issue. Turns out that while pregnancy rate (ie a live birth) marginally increases with the addition of a third embryo, the risk of multiples increases significantly. To me, that extra embryo wasn't worth the risk to me or the putative triplets (or more if one or more splits, as happened to a friend!)  Multiples mean it's harder and sometimes impossible to do the invasive testing that I would want to do.  Note this is subjective; many of you would not do invasive or even non-invasive testing.  But for me, that's how I come out.

-- Foreign palces: Having done one cycle abroad, I actually think that it's nice knowing our system is regulated.  I worry enough that there's some charlatan in the embryology giving away all my good embryos or mixing my eggs with some other guy's sperm in a regulated environment.  But I'd worry a hell of a lot more in an unregulated environment.  Again, that's just paranoid me.

-- DHEA : I think one London clinic has an arrangement to provide DHEA under some exemption.

-- Britain's Got Talent:  The Cheeky Monkey boy has the CUTEST smile. I'd have voted for him on that basis. But my God are they precocious!  If he's not managed right, he'll end up with a sense of entitlement that goes beyond most teens today!  At least he has more personality than Andrew Johnston.  Andrew has a great voice but lacks in facial expression.  The kid doesn't smile. And smiles are big with me.

-- NIcki: Looking forward to seeing your pix!!

--Anna 3rd: I've PM'd you.

Well, the board has been silent for a day or two.  I hope I've done my bit to stir things up a  bit


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

Oh, I forgot to report back. I had a beta done yesterday and started bleeding an hour later. Could have saved myself the cost!!  I stopped my progesterone and took 2 Nurafen.  And then today I got my results: HCG of 4.  Less than 3 is negative (though I know better: Anything less than 100 at 14 dpo is dubious.)  Nurse at GP said to come back in 48 hours. IVF doctor said "Forget it."  Oh well.  Another £4500 plus drugs down the drain. ON to Cycle No 7...


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## Nicki W (Nov 1, 2006)

Hi all!
Just read through! thanks for all your good wishes
Great news Beach, LB, Swoo!   Swoo - I saw GP at 6 weeks - he was fairly unenthusiastic, but got MW appt for the next week. LB any news on that first scan?   Beach - so please all going well 
Tracey - sorry hun, least you have another attempt planned.  
Cath - hope some better news on your next scan?  
Terry -  still
Mirra - I think final weeks of pregnancy are the hard bit dude - after you will be so relieved and happy    You next!  I'll let you know my top tips soon!  My first trip was to mothercare for extra breast feeding stuff - creams, non-itchy pads (don't recommend Mothercare ones!   ) gel pads, nipple shields!  But honestly its such a fab thing when she feeds!
Alegeria - hope OCP going OK.
Gabs - sorry about AF girl  
Anna III - Jinemed sounds a good bet girl, multiple embies will maybe help? It is true that less of them will be capable of going on to become a baby as you get older  
Ems - hot and humid is not nice and will only get worse as you get more fat  
LJ - great news on kate and not long for you. I'm sure you will fall naturally on your first month trying girl and we'll have to throw you off.  
Love to all I've missed
Chat soon 
NW   
PS photo soon!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Hmmmn, Terry, I don't think anything under 100 at 14dpo is dubious at all! Everyone is different, and most of the 14dpo betas I've heard of have been less than 100, which is why the standard tests test for 50iu. Couldn't let that go, in case people started worrying their betas weren't high enough!

The important thing is that they double - and in Beach's case even that wasn't an indicator of doom, so it's important people know these things aren't hard and fast.

In Turkey, it's against their religion and the laws of the land to mix your eggs or sperm with anyone else's than a spouse - just thought I'd point that out! The charlatans I've met in this industry are most certainly over here.
I can't speak for any other country, but assuming they carry out IVF like they vote in Eurovision might be being a bit unfair!

On the subject of multiples, it's certainly down to the customer and I would have had four put back if I'd had them. But then, as you say, I wouldn't have had invasive testing.

Nicks - I have two types of breast pads, but no gell pads - I was recommended cabbage leaves!  
Did you get Bounty freebies given to you in hospital? I was kind of counting on that for creams...


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

Cabbage leaves are best...but stay away from Savoy (not hard, round, or firm enough) and red cabbage (dye!!)


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi Ladies,

Nicks - Good to hear from you and looking forward to seeing the pics  

Steph - Not long now     

Mirra - Hope you've had a nice lunch with your mum  

Beach and Emma and LittleJen -  

Terry - Sorry to hear your news    

Multiple transfers - Although the chance of a multiple transfer appears to be very appealing and I wish I had the eggies for it, it will probably be pointless if some or all the embryos have any chromosome anomaly, especially as we get older. I was reading the case of a 39yrs old FF lady at the Lister thread as after having several BFNs from blast transfers and also a BFP quickly followed by BFN they've decided to do PGS on her next cycle. They found out that from 8 embryos only 1 was ok and normal. The cons. said that was the best way of chosing which 2 embryos to transfer because at that point all 8 looked and were dividing fine. Even if she were allowed to transfer 3 or 4 the embryologist would be none the wiser. She then had a single embryo transfer which resulted in her baby son. Of course she was also extremelly lucky to have such quantity to play with, which most of the time us PRs don't have  

Foreign places - I agree that, being an extremelly religious country, Turkey will probably be much more scrupulous than somewhere else. Somehow your comment brings to back my mind that C4 doc aired a few years ago and called 'The Sperminator' where an American fertility doctor used his own sperm to inseminate his clients without their knowledge and ended up fathering hundreds of children before being found out. Yep, it happened in America, of all places....  

Just came back from the Tescos pharmacy on the A3 where I've ordered all my drugs for my new cycle. After phoning everywhere they were by far the cheapest for Menopur, Cetrotide and Cyclogest, a saving of nearly £400!! Unbelievable  

Alegria xx


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## MillyFlower (Apr 6, 2007)

Hi All,

Laura, Firstly congratulations on your BFP.  

I was wondering if I could ask for a bit of advice.  I am a poor responder. I have had 3 failed ICSI cycles producing 5,4 and 3 eggs respectively. I posted on the poor responders thread some time ago if any of you remember me.

Anyway, I have been to the lister today who have suggested a short protocol using the pill, then a mix of clomid and 150ui on Gonal F with cetrotide. Then 25mg of Prednisdone from EC. Do you think the Jinemed would follow this protocol? I had a consultation with them in London and am very keen to go out there. I have emailed Ugur but would be interested in your thoughts. 

Could I ask what drugs you all about you previous protocols and your responses.  

My last clinic said I had to move onto donor eggs but I have been told that I still have some hope yet!

Thanks ladies.

Milly xx


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

Milly, yes from what they've told me they would indeed be flexible. 

Alegria, thanks and yes I do see your point. I am tempted by p.g.d. (is that the same as pgs?) but then I realsied it take sone cell from the embryo of 8 at that moment (day 3) the porblem is that embryos are mosaic ie mixed. Also, some can correct. So, by doing pgd, you could eitehr (a)  chuck out one for being bad when it was about to correct itself or (b) let in one where you sampled a good cell and the rest was bad. 

jsut to add to the whole nightmare ggrrrr. nothing is easy in this "game" I'm afraid. xxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi Millyflower

So glad to hear from you, wondered how you were but didn't want to pry.

Sorry I can't help you with Jinemed but I'm sure one of the others will be along shortly x x x


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## Nicki W (Nov 1, 2006)

Hi Milly! I'm sure one of the turkey girls will be along shortly to answer..... 
Steph - I missed you earlier   so just came by to say hope all is OK PUPO girl       

From the NHS point of view on multiples - I can see how its not quite right when someone comes back from abroad and expects their multiples to be looked after for free for months in SCBU when they have used different rules in a different country. Every case an individual though - its all in selection and basically none of us are the risk population to get multiples (Rooz of course was still a miracle to her docs! ) and maybe LB and her 5 we'll let off too!
NW


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi Nicks - good to hear from you, hope you're all doing well - love your new ticker   x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hello,

quickie from me as tired.  got scan booked, woo hoo!

steph -  

Swoo - hows your symptoms?  have they returned?

nicks - good to have you back! we missed you.  

Mirra - Hope the weather picks up for you soon!

Milly - I think Jinemed will be flexible, you need to have a chat with them.  

LJ - Oh how exciting, all them babies in the freezer! 

Algeria - I agree with all that M sais about jinemed, its clean, friendly and you see the dr alternate days (I saw them every day as I hav a lining prob), it was far better than my UK clinic in everyday.  I went with a mat for the first week then ith Tim for 10days.  They said they would rather me be out there for the whole treatment as they could tweek my drugs easier. 

As for mulitiple embryo's I obviously have gone with more the merrier, not a decision I took lightly, but looking at the quality of them I was happy for them all to go back.  Maybe something i will regret at my scan next week!!  But chances are so slim I am happy with take a calculated risk.  also I like the idea i have never thrown a embie away... all those i've made have gone back in.

Right, got light pains again so resting in bed for me!


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Laura - so pleased you got your scan booked.  when is it??

Still haven't really got any symptoms back, the doc said yesterday it was normal for them to come and go so not worrying anymore.  Feeling tired in the evenings though and gone off my food in the mornings too, but that's about it.  Try and rest as much as you can, as it sounds like you have a busy job x x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Swoo - Scan is next friday, i will be 6+4 so should see a heartbeat, although really worried, seems like years til the scan!  Only sympoms are sore boobies still but not as bad as before and tired, but to be honest i'm normally tired!

Got mates pestering me about going out, been avioding people since turkey as not told them... but still don't want to jinx thngs by telling people, god i hate the pity when things go wrong!  Any ideas for excues??


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Evening all!

Milly - yup, they take the attitude at the Jin that you are the customer, so if you're particularly struck by a protocol go for it.

Laura - a scan - whoo-hoo!  I'm so excited! I don't know about excuses - my mates know I rarely go out, so I've never needed an excuse!

Nicks - it's terribly rare though, isn't it? That all the embryos take? If they had been grade 1 I think they would have gone up to three, as that's their official line. I've heard of a lot more multiples from two embryos going back in this country, but then, I guess people being treated here is a lot more common. We haven't had any multiples on the Jin thread.
I'm trying to muster up any sympathy at all for the NHS... after all, it's their refusal to treat people that forces them to find cheaper options in the first place!  

Alegs - PGD seems such a huge deal, unless you know you have a hereditary problem and want to eliminate it, or want to choose the gender. Otherwise I can't see that interfering with the embryos at that stage would be helpful. There's another process whereby they pick up abnormalities, but the acronym escapes me - CGD? Something like that? But that can harm the embryos too. I might feel differently if I had more than two, of course!

That American doc sounds scary!  

Steph - how are you feeling? Not long to go now!

Terry - cheers for the tip! I remember the staining from red cabbage from my juicer now - but I don't think I'd have remembered - I would have ended up with magenta boobs!

xxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura- tell them that you've got an infection.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I've been going with being 'under the weather' for a while now not sure how much longer I can use that.  Still hopefully in a week i will be able to tell a few people.  This bit is so scarey, i keep reading people's signitures and it always seems to say 'm/c at 6 weeks'.  

I keep imagining the photos pomoting that clinic in the US wth the dr who used his own sperm,  with all the babies they have made on the front of the brochure all with ginger curly hair or something!!


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Laura - A scan! I'm so excited for you too and dying to hear how many babies you'll be having  

Mir - If I manage to get 3 embies next time, I want them all back in! And if I were at the Jinmed and were allowed to have more, would want it all back in too, wouldn't let then waste any of my dear embies    
Also agree that it's difficult to have any sympathy at all for the nhs, I can't forget that they've turned their back to me, a duly tax payer, deciding that at 39 I was already 'too old' and making me go out there to find an alternative solution...


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'll never forget that I was turned down for even progesterone - I found that absolutely unforgiveable. i know it was only one doctor, but still, it typified the response I had from the word go. Just because my DH had had children years ago - I fit the criteria in every way other than that.

Goodness - we're all being so serious tonight! Putting the world to rights, I reckon.

Laura - I reckon Bob might have ginger curly hair! Pete gets ginger in his beard if it grows, and I'm blonde and he's dark... We both have curly hair, too.

Beach - what sort of infection do you recommend?   Something really, really contagious?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Mir- I'd go with something that means you have to stay indoors for the next 7 and half mnths


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Surely Laura will tell them she's up the duff before then? Laura?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Can you imagine their reaction   

Off to bed now as been up since 5.30, night night x x x


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Just dug out some more details off the net:  'The story is about Dr Cecil Jacobson, a British trained fertility expert, who arguably crossed the boundaries of medical ethics. The story is told exquisitely well by journalists, his patients and the lawyers involved in his trial against the State of Virginia. His specialty for Artificial fertility for women produces an excellent example of a pshycologically influenced medical practice. The strange thing about the documentary is that his wife and so many other supporters stood by him which further complicated the case.' I remember it fairly well because I was working for C4 at the time and just watched it in disbelief    And I do think that you were all much safer in Turkey


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

God I keep lossing posts! 

i promise to tell a few people after the scan (if good news of course!), well probably.

Mirra - I find it disgusting you were not prescribed basics like progesterone.  Its pretty outragous.  Did you complain? I'm sure they have to?  Its not really anything to do with if you eligible for IVF, its about supporting your pregnancy.

As you know I'm a ginger and tim has really curly hair!! I've love a curly haired babe... think it has to come from both side though and my family are all stright haired.


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

Hey, I can't recall who said that sometimes an embryo "corrects itself" --- I'd like to know more about this.  Can whoever posted please elaborate...Many thanks!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

night night girls.


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all 

I'm still feeling the same - no symptoms, trying to stay positive as I can!    I won't be testing early - I love to hold onto that PUPO feeling for as long as I can! I might have considered Saturday but am going to a wedding and so will wait till Sunday.

To anyone considering Jinemed - I found them very warm, friendly and knowledgeable, the english language/communication thing would not an issue to anybody assertive enough to ask plenty of questions, and I think most of us on this thread have been through a few cycles and know exactly what we want to ask at any stage of the treatment (and incidentally, all 3 consultants at my UK clinic were not English either!).

The clinic was extremely clean, the ward rooms and theatres even more so, overall I was very happy we chose to go there, and really loved Istanbul - and it is great to have the feeling that even if it is a negative at least we had a great time on holiday there, it was such a relaxing way of doing it. I will be going back if this cycle does not work, for one last try with my own eggs, am really hoping I won't have to though!   

I only got one embryo, so the multiple embryo issue never came up - but I think that at my age and with all my BFN's behind me, I would have had 3/4 put back if I had been in the position to choose.

I would not have had more than 2 put back on a first cycle - there is one lovely lady from the US on the Jinemed thread - Roxie - who conceived triplets on her first ever ICSI cycle (not sure how many they put back), one baby miscarried quite early I think, and she gave birth to two little boys very prematurely and one sadly died  the other one Gavin was a little fighter and is now a toddler, he lost the eyesight in one eye, but apart from that he is doing really well.  She is considering returning to the Jinemed at the moment for another treatment.

Our Roozie of course had triplets from a first cycle, and luckily all babies were born healthy - such a wonderful miracle 

*Nicks* - great to have you back hon  - hope you get your hernia sorted very soon and can't wait to see piccies of Emily 

*Laura* - try downloading a free browser called Firefox - its great - just like Internet Explorer only you don't lose your FF posts!

I'll update the list in a sec! 

Sorry for no more personals - gotta go up to London tomorrow for DH to see his kidney specialist so can't stop, need to get to bed!

Night all - speak soon xxx
Steph xxx


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

*TEAM PR*   *PR Ladies awaiting next treatment:* *AbbyCarter*
just had follow-up after 3rd IVF - planning 4th IVF? - due to start ??/??/08*Bankie*
2nd IVF at Lister - consultation 27/03/08 - hoping to cycle in May/June '08*Betty1*
looking into lowering FSH after BFN on 3rd IVF in August '07*CathB*
just had follow up - decision re 4th IVF maybe on Short Protocol, or possibly donor eggs?*Inconceivable*Undecided - consulting with LFC/Lister re next treatment/considering donor eggs*Juicy*3rd IVF - Lister - June or July 2008 *Latestarter*Currently undergoing cycle monitoring at ARGC before 1st ICSI*MillyFlower*4th ICSI cycle - maybe at the Jinemed?*Nikki2008*4th cycle due to start May 2008*Odette*4th IVF - Barcelona IVI - this time with DE - May '08? *Ophelia*8th ICSI - Jinemed - due to start July 2008*Popsi*2nd IVF - DHEA trial at IVF Wales - due to start July 2008*Sammie*1st IVF tested negative 20/02/08 - next appointment 29/04/08*Swinny*4th ICSI due to start mid-May 2008 - currently on Cyclo-Progynova to regulate FSH*Vonnie*3rd IVF - Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh - due to start July 2008
*PR Ladies currently undergoing treatment:* *Alegria*2nd IVF - Lister - SP - currently on OCP before baseline scan/start stimms *Carole69*2nd/3rd ICSI - EC was 17/04/08 - waiting for update *Droogie (Heather)*
1st ICSI after TESA/TESE - about to start stimming - May 2008*Kazzie40*1st IVF - flying to Turkey 28/5/08 *Matchbox*1st IVF - LP - LWH - currently stimming *Team PR members currently on 2 week wait  :* *Silverglitter*2nd ICSI - LP - currently stimming - ET was 16/05/08 - testing ??/05/08   *Stephjoy*1st Natural IVF (after 3 ICSIs/2 cancelled ICSIs) - Jinemed - testing 01/06/08    *Terry*6th ICSI - SP - testing ??/05/08
   *TracyM*2nd DIVF - EC 05/05/08 - 5 day blastocyst transfer 09/05/08 - testing 24/5/08 *Team PR members currently recovering from a negative cycle or miscarriage: * *AlexG*1st IVF - 1 egg collected - abnormal fertilisation 11/03/08  *Babyspoons/Spoony*1st ICSI - April '08 - tested negative  *ElenaSch*3rd ICSI - Slovakia - March '08 - tested negative 14/03/08  *Francie*3rd IVF - one fighter embie put back - tested negative 07/05/08  *ClaireP*3rd ICSI - ARGC - Feb '08 - tested negative - review April '08  *Jan27 (Cheryl)*2nd ICSI at Lister - Feb '08 - cancelled due to no response - maybe Jinemed next?  *Jnr*1st IVF - UCH London - 1 blastocyst transferred - tested negative April '08  *Lincs Jax*5th IVF, with IVIG - Care Nottingham - 4 eggs but no fertilisation  converted to FET with one fighter frostie - tested positive April '08 but levels fell - miscarriage *Lollipop (Gabrielle)*4th ICSI - Jinemed - cancelled due to no response  *Loui5e*3rd ICSI - Jinemed - tested positive but miscarriage 8w4d  *Merse1*FET - 13/03/08 - tested negative  Now scheduled to have endo op 13/06/08*Nixf01 (Paris Nix)*4th IVF - 3 eggs fertilised but none put back  *Sheldon*1st ICSI - April '08 - tested negative  *Siheilwli*3rd cycle - ICSI - no fertilisation - converted to FET but tested negative April '08  *SJC*4th cycle - SP - Lister - tested negative  *Sonia*3rd IVF, this time with ICSI - LP - tested negative 07/05/08  *PR Ladies undergoing Adoption process:* *Linziloo*Good Luck    *PR Ladies with bumps*   *Beachgirl*  on 3rd IVF - tested positive 28/04/08 - next scan 22/05/08 - due ??/??/08 *Bugle*  on 2nd ICSI - Jinemed - due ??/??/08 *Cath J*  on 3rd IVF (2nd ICSI) - Care Northampton - 1st scan 14/05/08 *Emmachoc*  after FET - due 07/10/08*Laurab*  on 4th cycle, this time with ICSI - Jinemed - 5 embies - 1st scan 06/06/08*LittleJenny* here on behalf of her sister, Kate on 1st IVF - twins! due 28/12/08 *Miranda7*  on 3rd ICSI - Jinemed - due 29/06/08*PaulB & his DW Jennig*  surprise natural BFP April '08 after failed fertilisation on 2nd ICSI in Feb '08 - next scan 27/05/08 - due ??/??/08*Snic*  on 3rd IVF - tested positive 27/04/08 - 1st scan ??/05/08 *Swoo*3rd ICSI - SP - next scan 29/05/08 - due ??/05/08*Sunshine*  on 3rd ICSI - due 31/10/08 *PR Ladies with babies*   *EBW*  Kate - born January 14th after 4th ICSI*Nicky W* Emily Alice - born May 23rd after surprise natural BFP while d/regging for 4th IVF*Pin*  Olivia Jane - born November 30th 2007 after 1st IVF*Roozie*  Emma,  Lucy and  Jake born January 29th 2008 
(triplets 32+6, all healthy  ) after 1st GIFT at UCH


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

It's not raining! 
Hooray!

Steph - I'm crossing everything Stan has decided to stick around. I shall have my heart in my mouth on test day!

Laura - if our babies look the same people really will talk about funny goings on at the Jinemed!   Mind, what's the likelihood of a Turkish man having red hair?  

My doc said he wasn't allowed to px progesterone as he wasn't a fertility expert. This despite a letter from my clinic and a call from the local fert guy who said he could. He was just being a twit. I never want to go through that again!

Alegs - did they work out if that Dr was doing it for altruistic reasons or taking over the world reasons?

What did you do for C4? Are you another journo?

Beach - because it was winter no one outside work could tell I was pregnant until seven and a half months! Then I started wearing summer clothes to walk the dogs and they could see it wasn't pies and beer making me a bit larger - the expression on people's faces!  
So Laura could get away with it probably, apart from the drinking angle.

I'm off to get my hair cut today - don't want to be that greasy minger in the new baby pics!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Mir- it's lovely and sunny isn't it, just off to sort out money and then back for scramble, I need my hair cutting too, hate going but will try and book in for next week as it's looking a mess, left it until now as didn't want to be sat uncomfortable in chair but next week I'll be 9+5 on Thursday so if all goes well at scan on Monday I can tell hairdresser.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oh, lovely! Does he/she know you've been txing?

Nearly at the 12-week stage - my goodness! Time's going so fast in some ways...


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

No, I haven't said anything as not that close and don't see her very often as hate going and sitting in front of the mirrors.. 

Just gone through bills and now I feel fed up!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Baaah - I hate bills and paperwork! It always makes me feel bad. Go do something nicer.  

I'm going to have a cuppa and walk the dogs... as soon as I can heave myself out of this chair.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

I was wondering yesterday, does your bump develop a radar for things like how much space there is to get through etc


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Nope! At work, I used to go through two filing cabinets to get to the loo, and towards the end I was bumping off the corners on the way through!

But don't worry, there's loads of protective padding to protect the baby - you won't do it any harm unless you're punched in the tum or something!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Good excuse not to wash up


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Pete does that anyway!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

So does Alex, can't complain at all with how much he does x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Bless 'em. I'm scrambling - but I give up with the larger grids! It's too hard.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

How does Steph get so many points!!!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't know! She is uber-intelligent... Stan will be a right brainbox!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

I know, I do like doing quizes but not that good at them


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Morning all - there's no sun here!!!  Just horrible grey clouds, at least there's no rain though.  

Laura - Scan next Friday - great, bet you can't wait to see how many there are!!!

Beach - took your advice and just called the docs to book in.  Am now waiting for them to call me back.

Also my clinic had advised me to stop using cyclogest after today.  I thought you had to take it up until week 12. What has everyone else done  As bit worried about stopping it yet.

What is this scramble?

Swoo x x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

It depends on the clinic, Swoo - The Lister only does Cyclogest to test day, but the Jinemed pxes Gestone till 12 weeks. There's no evidence either is better I'm afraid!

The gestone cost me an arm and a leg, too. I wouldn't worry about it - if there was any proof it helped it might be different.

Scramble is a game on ******** - are you on ********?

It's just started to rain here, just as I was going out with the dogs.


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Think I'll carry on with the cyclogest until I run out and see how I feel then.

No not on face book.  Will have a look at it when I get chance.  Sun's coming out here now!!!!


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## Kazzie40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi everyone we are here in Istanbul! The last couple of days have been frantic - We arrived here on Tuesday 12.50pm and were delayed through customs for two hours so was trying to sort our accomodation out ( we got a flat instead of hotel in the end ) and got a phone call from the hospital saying we needed to be there straight away so had no time to freshen up or change after no sleep since Sunday night as we left at 3am Tuesday morning so no point going to bed. 

After starting Stims last Saturday 225iu morning and evening gonal f  on the first scan Tuesday The doctor told us that there were six follicles growing with two smaller ones a bit behind and they hoped that they could catch those smaller ones up and I had to start the Cetrotide Tuesday as I think some of them were 12 - 13 mm after just 3 days stimulation. I had a scan yesterday where I was told there were four to five follicles so I wondered what happened to the others. 

They added Menopur 75iu yesterday to my cocktail of drugs. Todays' scan shows six follicles growing and I have been told that I may have the HCG injection tomorrow or the next day so not that many days stimulation in total it seems. I am hoping that maybe tomorrow the missing two will be found!! 

I am worried that I have not produced that many eggs as obviously the more you produce the more chance of getting a baby at the end of the day and we have the translocation of my husbands to worry about. My nightmare now is how many of those eggs will be ok and how many fertilize and the health of any resultant embies but suppose have to try and sit back and wait and see. 

I hope everyone is okay and I will be back tomorrow for personals but wanted to let you all know how it is going.

Take care love Karen xxx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi there all - lovely and sunny here in London!!

By contrast my mood is grim!!  I had my third AMH test results back and it's 2.3 (16.422 on the bigger scale).  Good you might think, but I'm seething.  My results have been 1.6(11.424) in Feb, 0.4(2.856) in March and 2.3 (16.422) in May.  The nurse who gave me my results over the phone hinted that the 0.4 looked like it must be a lab error because it was so off the wall and was inconsistent with my antral follicle count.  However, even if she is right, to me that is totally unacceptable and not just because that result had me in a real panic!  The bottom line is that most people are being given one single AMH result and told they can rely on it, it doesn't fluctuate and it can't increase.  Even if the 0.4 was a lab error and such errors are rare, an increase from 1.6 to 2.3 is one of nearly 44%, which suggests that AMH DOES fluctuate and CAN increase, which is NOT what we are all being told.  If the 0.4 was a lab error and such errors are fairly common then god knows how many people are going round thinking their AMH is something totally different to reality and they should not be told they can rely on one result.  Disturbingly, I did read that one reason FDA approval had not been granted for the AMH test in the US was that the detection systems were unsatisfactory.   

Sorry to rant, but I've read posts from too many people really upset about their AMH results, especially when they don't correlate with other tests.  I am not dissing the AMH test at all - I think it has a valuable role to play in all this, but I do feel that we need to know there is a long way to go on research etc. and that the detection systems may not be as accurate as might be desirable.

If anyone is concerned about a possible lab error on the AMH test then I am with the LFC which uses the HCA labs.  The Lister also uses these.  Whoever you are with, I think it's worth getting a confirmation test done of your AMH.

thinking aloud here - I've been on DHEA since 3rd April so I'd been on it for 6 weeks before my most recent test but wasn't on it before.  Can that make your AMH go up? 

sorry to rant - will post personals later when i have calmed down....


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi LJ - sorry about your clinic and your results, it's so annoying when they get it wrong.  Can't help with the DHEA question sorry, as my clinic only retested my FSH and not my AMH.  I know my AMH was about 0.24 though in August last year, which isn't good.  Hopefully someone else will be able to advise................

Swoo x x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

LilJen, I just don't know what's going on with your AMH! It's so bizarre. Are they testing you on the same day of your cycle each time? Has your consultant said anything about these results?

See, in my case FSH was meaningless, but AMH explained everything. I guess there's still so much we don't know. Mine was done by the Lister. I am intending to get another AMH done after Bob's born, to check this, because I'm fascinated as to what it's done in two years.

The Lister only does an AMH after a poor response on a cycle.

The only thing I can think of is that you are a rare exception to the rule, but i don't know why this would be.

Karen - it's really not a quantity issue, so don't fret about that. The girl I was with over there produced three times the number of eggs I did and didn't get pregnant.
Quality is really the bottom line, especially if you're going for PGD and need to mess about with them.

Swoo - it's raining again here!

xxxxx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Swoo  - sorry, but I am just ranting; it's not really relevant on this thread but it bothers me that people may be being misled...

Miranda - my doctor did push for another AMH test because the 0.4 was so bizarre when compared to my first result and my AFC. She also said that an AMH of 0.4 would be very unusual with a normal FSH (I know you are an exception to this but, as you probably know, it is very rare). I think she basically felt one or the other must be a lab error so getting a third done would hopefully resolve it. To an extent it has since the difference between 1.6 and 2.3 is much smaller than between 1.6 and 0.4, but there is still enough of a difference to make this "non-fluctuating" thing a bit tenuous, especially when the AMH goes up! With cycle days, I was told to have the blood drawn on day 2-4 of your cycle, preferably day 3. My first test was on day 3. My second had to be on day 4 since I was away on days 2 and 3. Before the last test I read an obscure article in some Indian newspaper about some woman who had done some research which inidcated AMH should actually be tested on day 1 of your cycle - no details of research, no nothing; just that comment. Being me, I noted that day 3 had been "better" than day 4 so I thought I'd try day 2 this time to fit in with the clinic's criteria but taking this Indian article into account to get it as close to day 1 as possible! Who knows if it made a difference Here's the article if you are interested, bearing in mind it's an external link etc. etc. etc. ....

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080302/spectrum/society.htm

Karen - Six follies is great and it may well be the others are hiding. Kate was told she had 5 and then it went down to 4 and then at EC she got 5 eggs so the other one must have reappeared. It sounds as though you have a healthy number of follies and, as has been said before, quality is MUCH more important than quantity.  

Laura - I'm so looking forward to knowing how many there are when you have your scan! So exciting. I am a bit worried about what you say on curls from both sides though if DP and I are freezing embryos. DP has very curly hair and I spend way too much time battling my own curls with the straightening irons. Can they screen for this before we freeze?? 

Steph - I am  for good news about Stan!  

Beach - hope it's going well. do you have a due date yet??

Alegria - how's it going 

Terry - hope you are still ok 

Emma - hello! 

love to all


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

hello eveyrone, OMG this rain!!!

Terry, It was I who said that embryos can correct, having been told this in the course of a long conversationw ith the embryologist. her view was v negative on PGD and that was one of the reasons why. ie you could reject a "bad" cell when actually that embryo was just about to do the decent thing and correct itself. 

Scary story re the US lady adn her triplets, :-(

Jenny, thanks for your message. it's all jsut indicative I think, (at best!). the thing is that we dont know what normally fertile women get. someone I know who has had 2 children (bang bang first month each time, aged 32 and 35) had her FSH done as a favour to me as I was interested. there it was, 11 point something. So U.C.H. would have rejected her for treatment for starters when she is extremely fertile by the measure of practical reality. 

I don' know. all i ultimately know, over 20k later, is that the older you are the harder it is as everything starts to be less efficient- egg production, fimbrae picking up the egg, exact timing, length of time egg survives, chemical signals of implantation, everything. it's just a question of keeping going. 

all of which my Grandma's generation could have told us for free. GGGRRRR!

xxx


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## Terry (Feb 24, 2005)

Anna, you make a really good point with your home grown science experiment with your friend who had two kids! Makes me want to redo my AMH.

Also, we're similar to you in cash burn rate    Six cycles at approximately £5500 each, though two were paid for by others.  So about £22k on our part.  But my doc says it's a roll of the dice...you just have to keep playing. You're sort of bound to hit one eventually, but you just don't know when. (Sort of like Forrest Gump's chocolates, eh?)

I wish they had things over here like they do at McGill (Google Dr Tan; McGill)  They offer 3 cycles for C$10,000.  There are conditions, notably, you need to do three within one year, and if you get pregnant (ie think past X weeks, where X is 20 weeks), then your special deal lapses.  Dr Tan is a research supremo --- developed the new egg freezing technique and has published loads.  Some of his underlings may be more clinically oriented (my fave: Dr Holzer).  I did one cycle there, but ultimately decided that long distance was not my thing.  But since many of you are considering Jinemed, you should know McGill is only a 6 hour flight away... If anyone has questions, please ask.  I've jokingly asked the LIster if they'd do a Loyalty Card thing over here


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Just walked home in the rain.  

Well exciting development.... i have felt queesy a couple of times today (well I think, I hope I wasn't imagining it!)  

Anyway,

LJ - Oh curly hair is fab!!! Timhas the most lovely thick curly hair and so has one of my mates. Mine is straight at the sides and then wavy at the back!!??

Mirra - So did you get out of the chair today?

Kazzie - I've replied to your post on other thread.  

Emma - You ok chick?

Merse - Hello

Steph - Hope all went ok at DH check up.   

Hello Anna, terry and anyone I forgot (impossibel to remember you all!)


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura- woohoo, you feel sick, that's great news


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

bring on the vomit!!! we all want it. 

girls , why have we all spent most of our lives avoiding being pg?  just a query in an idle moment!?


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi ladies

Just thought you may be interested in some recent posts on this thread re DHEA, especially with regards to raising E2 levels, not a good idea if have endo and ARGC advising against it as may diminish egg quality.

Thought some of you may find it useful as there's much chat about DHEA on this thread...

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93238.30

Take care
Natasha


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I know, I've spent half my life trying not to get preg the other half trying!    Well that's how it seems!

I'm thinking now the queasy was in my head!!  I want to feel ill so much I am making myself ill psyhologically!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura- if you're anything like me you'll be wishing the next 8 months away.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I think I'll be ok when I'm further along, I'm quite looking forward to being preg and being able to take my baby to work with me everyday and give it a rub etc!!  Its just getting through the 1st trimester, oh and the 3rd trimester and birth.  Maybe I could just have the 2nd trimester as thats fun i think!!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

LB- you do make me laugh...think you're idea sounds like a good plan.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I think its a great plan!!  They can grow the bubba in a dish til 12 weeks... THEN implant it than can slip it out easily whilst its still little and thenbake in the oven for that few months!!  Now that is something that them scientists should be working on!!!!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

But just think missing out on birth....

Off for a bath back shortly as home alone tonight    and tomorrow


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh yeah I'd really hate to miss out on giving birth!!!  

Enjoy your soak!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Thanks for that, Natasha! Always good to have more info on DHEA and AMH - we are obsessed with it on this thread!
I'll have a little squint at that in a mo.

Whoo! Laura - you are sick, man!   I've had such an easy time of it with sickness - hardly a thing. I've now got heartburn to die for, which I've never had. Could hardly walk this eve, so took the dogs the short way and it took me an hour as I felt so poorly.

Beach - is that you looking forward to giving birth? If they could knock me out for it and bring me round when Bob was here I'd welcome it. 

Anna - that article is a bit inconclusive, isn't it? But then, I guess everything in regards to AMH.

One day we will know all there is to know, surely?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Just watching that programme from last week about the families who have 11 + children


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Mirra - Not long before you can strap the little fella onto yor back and walk with him for miles ad the sun will be shining then too!

Really was only very slightly queasy today, hoping for actual sick tomorrow, or at least so queasy I have to walk out of the office!!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Jinemed have a video on you tube. There is a very funy bit where they are washing a newborn!  Nurse looks like shes rinsing a cabbage!  Good to have a look if your thinking of going out there though.  

Right I need to go tesco and get a pressie for someone at work tom and I may invest in a new bra.  Terrified of buying a pregnancy related item but my bra's are digging in and I've been told I shouldn't wear underwired so may go buy a new bra.  Scared of Jinxing but wires are digging in all my ones and hurting.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura- go and get a new one, you don't want to be in pain .  I've bought a couple of things that I've seen already.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I've gone through bras like anything L - better get yourself a few!

I saw that prog, Beach - the families were lovely.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

They are aren't they, just don't know how they afford them all.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

The Asian guy - he's like a Redcoat, incharge of his own horde of holidaymakers! Love 'im.


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## Nicki W (Nov 1, 2006)

Lj - one of the current trials is looking at whether AMH increases on DHEA. If you disregard your one bad result your increase is from 11 to 16 which is good, and all measurements in the body will vary daily anyway so they are quite similar really - still in the same low fert category I think (but what does that mean - they are higher than mine!   ) Don't stress too much   
LB - glad you are feeling sick! 
Love to all 
NW


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Well they only had one bra in my size (well a cup size bigger than normal) so I just got the one... its very very groovy, like somthing my nan would wear!!

Did you see in the paper today a couple (aged 59 and 72) who had IVF twins yesterday and left them at the hospital as they were girls! They also asked when she wold be able to fly again so they could return to India to try again.  Can you imagine going through all this, and at that age, and then not even keeping the babies solely because they are girls... its beyond belief really.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Christ - really? What paper was that?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

I think the story was in the sun


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## Kazzie40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Good morning girls - just got back from the hospital and it looks as if I might be having the HCG injection at 9pm tomorrow night. I just wondered how soon after the HCG egg collection is normally performed? Is it 36 hours later usually? I think I remember some of you girls at the Jinemed going at midnight for the HCG then having egg collection not the next day but the morning after that or have I got that wrong? I am sorry for the questions again but I am sweating a bit ( as usual! ) as at least one of my precious six eggs is 22mm today which I know is ready to pop although I am on cetrotide but I think the hospital wants to catch the smaller ones up.  I will be back later to read up on the posts to see what has been happening with everyone here. take care love Karen xxx.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Yep - looks like you'll be having egg collection at 9am on Monday, Karen!

The one at 22mm is probably going to be too big - a pickled egg - but the rest are of similar size, which is why they are hanging on, to get more mature eggs out of you.

I've just got up! 10am! Amazing. I was up at half four, then went back to sleep. And the weather's not too bad, too - yay!

Beach - yes, I hadn't looked at the Sun till this morning, and there it was.

xx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi Nicks - nice to see you still have a moment to come and say hello - was Emily Alice asleep??

I found the trial you are talking about - whether AMH increases on DHEA; it's still underway I gather. I lose track of the AMH ranges since I think they seem to have changed since the original 15+ (in the pmol range, 2.1 in the smaller range) being ok. I think it's now accepted that a bit lower is ok - repromedix, a huge lab in the US, regards anything above 5 in pmol (0.7) as ok and most other US clinics seem to regard anything above 7 (about 1) or 10.71 (1.5) as being ok. One New Zealand study seemed to suggest that 10 (1.4) was typical for a 37 year old. So what is "normal" does seem to vary a bit. Anyway, if we discount the 0.4 result my AMH has increased 25% after 6 weeks of DHEA.

I don't know if anyone else read the other thread on DHEA and ARGC not recommending, higher E2, lower egg quality etc. Here are my comments:

big hype a few years ago in the US but nobody believing it now - I don't agree; there is still loads of research being done, the results of one of the biggest ever studies was published in December 2007, other studies are ongoing and a patent application has only recently been submitted. I don't know if this person is referring to the original 2000 study which may have caused some temporary hype before DHEA was raised again as a possible treatment in around 2005.

reduced egg quality - no idea where this comes from; the studies suggest otherwise.

increased E2 levels - DHEA does increase peak E2 levels but isn't that good? I mean, someone early on in the thread (puglet on page 1) was looking into DHEA because she had been told her E2 was low, indicating diminished ovarian reserve!! If they are talking about increased cycle day 3 E2 levels, then from what I have read, the research doesn't support this. There may well be a slight increase (from logic here since DHEA can convert to E2 and other hormones) but not hugely so. (I personally looked at this but my E2 on day 3 was low so I felt I had some wiggle room here; same applied to testosterone where mine was also low)

Zita West not recommending - their words to me were "it's not licensed in the UK so we can't recommend it. If I were you I would take it"; they also gave me a leaflet on sources and a summary of a client's experience with a telephone consultation with DHEA guru Dr. Gleicher.

ARGC not recommending - not my clinic so I have no idea, but many clinics (including my own, the LFC) won't recommend it because it is not licensed here, which is fair enough but doesn't mean that it is harmful or ineffective. Perhaps we also have to cynically bear in mind how cheap DHEA is when compared to what you might pay at the ARGC.....

should not be taken if you have endo - I can't comment on this since I have never suffered from endo

Obviously, I think it's something we all need to take some care over. I would be more cautious if I were under 35 and very cautious under 30. I'd also possibly be wary if my E2 and/or testosterone were high, if I had endo or if I started to grow a beard or something but I have to say that, overall, I am a DHEA believer!

Anyone else with any thoughts? Nicks, Miranda and Anna are usually our research gurus...

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Well I personally treated it as an experiment after reading up on it. I took the full dose for PRs of 75mg a day for a week, then had my testosterone levels checked. While they were still in the normal range they were on the higher end of that, and for safety's sake I dropped back to 50mg a day. I was 34 at the time.
My eggs showed a definite improvement. The last cycle I got immature, fragile eggs, and this one I got mature, good-looking eggs.

With any supplement, it's not going to work for everyone - for instance, it's been shown in one study to more than double the success rate for PRs, but that still leaves 60 per cent not pregnant. There are many other factors to consider, such as whether it's a good month to cycle, the expertise of your clinic, or just...luck.

I think luck has to be one of the main factors - after all, people who do it naturally don't conceive the first month, usually.

With what we know about DHEA it's definitely worth a shot for PRs. Other people have asked about it who suffer from PCOS, etc, thinking it will do the same for their eggs, but really the only thing we know for sure is that it can help people with diminished ovarian reserve.

With cycles producing between 1-7 eggs quality is going to be a watchword, and something so cheap (I agree with your conclusion as to why the ARGC doesn't recommend it!) has to be worth a shot.

I don't think anyone enters into spending thousands on tx with a gung-ho attitude - we're all ultra-aware of what's happening in our own bodies, so we do know when it's having an adverse effect - for example, I stopped taking it when I was on the pill as it reacted badly with other hormones in me.

In America it's sold as a supplement, nothing more, and it's naturally produced in the body - you are actually just supplementing what your body has naturally. So I disagree with the idea it is 'self-medicating' to take DHEA. In that case it would be self-medicating to take vitamins, minerals and all the other stuff we pop daily without a qualm. Anything can be dangerous if you overdo it - I took too much vitamin C and it made me chronically constipated and ill.

As long as we're careful, and watch out for warning signs, and read up on how much to take and for how long, I think DHEA can be a Godsend.

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## anna the third (Jan 15, 2008)

morning, why does DHEA attract so much negativity then that other vits don't? could it be taht it actually works? !!!


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Miranda I agree - I am sure that we wouldn't be where we are today, 6 weeks pregnant, without the help of DHEA. I know it probably doesn't suit everyone, but like you say we all know our own body's. For PRs I definately think it is worth a shot. My eggs were of a much better quality this time and my FSH reduced considerably and to get pregnant with an AMH of 0.24 is pretty good I think.

There is a clinic/hospital in Wales which is currently undertaking clinical trials of DHEA, it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Swoo x

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## matchbox (Dec 17, 2006)

Just a quick one, I am in lot of pain. I had egg collection today. They only managed 2 eggs.              
I am very sad and I just don't feel positive at all. I just hope those 2 eggs will fertilize. 

Andi
xxx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Andi,

It is very hard when you don't get huge numbers of eggs to work with and you have to pin your hopes on two but please don't be too despondent.  If you look around on this thread you'll see a lot of ladies who have been in your situation and and yet gone on to have BFPs with a small egg number or later successful cycles. 

Terry's own One Egg Wonder came from a cycle where - well, the name says it all!   

LauraB had an abandoned cycle (non-response) earlier and later a BFN following the retrieval of 2 eggs.  Yet fast forward to another cycle and she gets 5 embies and a BFP.

Swoo is now pg and she had an earlier cycle which only produced 2 eggs.

There are many others - take a look at the signatures here...

I know it sounds trite but quality is everything and you may have produced 2 crackers which go on to form lovely embies and lovely babies.  And even if it's not meant to be this time you are young so time is on your side. 

 so very hard that your two eggies will fertilise and that you'll get that BFP.  Meantime, please try and stay positive - I'm sure you'll get a lot of support from the lovely ladies here who know just what you are going through right now!


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

hi there 

while you were on the subject of DHEA i would just like to add ladies that while this drug may have had benefited some ladies it isn't the way forward for all, there is clearly a reason why this drug isn't licensed in this country + would appreciate it that in future while you promote this drug you could also take into account + add in your statements that it is a necessity to consult with your consultant/GP before taking this/any drug + that it is not reccomended to take it without approval, for all it is said that DHEA is just a vitamin as with some of the vits we buy over the counter we still need medical approval before taking so even more so with unlicensed drug such as DHEA, im sure you can understand the concern we share for the safety of all.

thankyou


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

The reason, as far as I'm aware, that it hasn't been licensed in this country yet is that it hasn't gone through that process. It hasn't actually been turned down for a licence, so there's no reason why it wouldn't pass the tests.

In fact, a UK pharmacist can buy a licence to import DHEA, which suggests that the framework is there. According to one site, cancer patients have been given up to 3,500mg a day for long periods with no ill effects, so our 25-75mg is a tiny dose.

GPs in this country will not have heard of DHEA - many in my experience haven't even heard of FSH! So it is up to us, unfortunately, to discover things that may help. My GP was very good, and Googled it while I was there, but having heard the dosage did not feel it raised an issue.

As we all keep saying, it doesn't benefit everyone and you need to handle it with care. But the licence thing is a red herring.


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

in the meantime would still appreciate that you reccomend a medical consultation before embarking on taking anything that is not licensed, while i understand that it may be just in line for licensing, as it stands it isn't, there are people out there who may not be as knowledgable about the drug as you are + who may take DHEA off there own back which is why i ask that you suggest speaking to a professional who knows your history 1st

please don't take this as having a go but we need to remember 1st + foremost the safety of individuals + while they ultimately make their own decisions we can help them along the way with making them decisions + choices in a sensible way

xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I thought I had done that without the need for someone effectively saying it's dangerous with no evidence to back that up - no surveys, no studies, nowt!

Whenever people ask for advice on DHEA I write a huge screed on it, with lots of safeguards, but that gets ignored and we get 'told off' for talking about it.

How about you give us a line to paste under every post about DHEA that would mollify all the mods? I'm really fed up with being told off when I've been very careful with my posts!

I know why you have to do it, and I don't mean to be arsey, truly. Is there a line that would prevent this recurrent problem?


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

I agree with Miranda.  I don't think anyone here advises that DHEA be taken without careful thought but it seems to have helped so many that it would be useful to have an acceptable caveat to add to our DHEA posts so that we can discuss it without offending the guidelines here.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

I agree that a caveat would be a good idea, I self medicated on my last cycle during which I got my first ever BFP, who knows whether this can be attributed to the DHEA or aspirin that I took but something worked so whilst I'd always caution people to ensure they understand what they are taking I certainly wouldn't condone it.

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## Suzie (Jan 22, 2004)

Firstly - No one is telling anyone off! FF is a public website for all to read and although you on the thread might be knowlegable and sensible when discussing/taking it , we must remember that not all people reading will be.


We aren't asking you to stop discussing it but just to be mindful that others read your comments also so sometimes it is needed for a mod to post to remind others reading that it isn't licensed in the UK yet.

xx


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

Hiya Girls

Just a quick one to let you know that I am taking part in the DHEA run trial at IVF Wales in Cardiff, I have been on 75g of either that of a placebo for 3
months now and will be having ICSI next month, so I am hoping it works, once they have the results and if they prove it does not do any kind of long term harm and is successful then the UK can apply for a licence (i think this is what they said) so I am taking it prescribed by my clinic

And x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

That will be a relief! The only thing is, I hope it doesn't get more expensive if it's licensed here - that often happens.

Both the Lister and the Jinemed were very happy for me to take it.

If it's harmful at the low dose recommended I'll eat one of my edible hats.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Evening!

Just to clarify I was told to start taking DHEA 4months prior to my cycle by JInemed based on my history. I was actually already taking it but it was good to have a forward thinking consult who was up to date on the latest developments. Popsi, fab you are doing a trial!!  Wishing you lots of luck!     Mirra I bet it goes up to £100 a day once registered!!  Maybe I will stock up now and run a business selling it cheap!!  

How is everyone?

Well I was so tired today I thought I was going to never be able to leave my desk and get home!! Home slept and now awake and its friday!!  Tim has just walked to the ****** and then we gonna watch a movie!  No queasy today.  

XX


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all 

sorry I've not been on, been really busy. DH's kidney specialist was really pleased with him, said there had been no further deterioration in his kidney function since the last visit so that is great, just need to keep him healthy as possible!

I felt the urge to test last night  but I decided to wait until this morning and see how I felt, when I got up this morning I felt soooo normal I was convinced it hasn't worked  and didn't want to be really miserable at the wedding we're going to tomorrow, so will wait till Sunday as planned. Still PUPO!   

Found out on Wednesday my sister-in-law is expecting a little girl, a sister for my little nephew, so that was lovely news 

Last night we were just about to go to bed when there was some really loud banging out back of our flat, I looked out into the dark and the rain and saw a bunch of blokes kicking in the entry door to the block of flats opposite, just thought about ringing the police when I realised they WERE the police, they got in and started shouting "ARMED POLICE!! GET DOWN GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR!!". Then streams more police were running out of the darkness of the bushes into the block of flats. Was really shocked as this is quite a sleepy area and most of these (Careline) flats have pensioners in them! Maybe one of them has a crack factory going in their flat or something!  Still don't know what it was all about - a police car has been there all day while police are searching the flat.

*Matchbox* - well done on getting 2 eggs  - am  that they are super quality and will both fertilise for you - I truly know how hard it is, but try to stay    the others are right quality is much more important than quantity. Good luck for finding out in the morning   

*Karen* - sounds like you're doing well  - the others are right if you have trigger tomorrow night then egg collection will be first thing Monday - good luck hon, I really hope you get some super eggs    Which clinic are you at? remember you saying you changed your mind at last minute re Jinemed. How are you finding Istanbul?

Sorry for no more personals - need to get an early night and got shirt, dress etc to iron for wedding first, nails to paint etc!

Sending you all lots of  - if I don't get on tomorrow night then I'll let you know how I get on Sunday morning with testing (gulp!)

Love Steph xxx

P.S. I'm not that clever, honest!  - just got a photographic memory for words!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Steph - Have fun at the wedding!


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks Laura! have a great weekend!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

We're missing you steph.... looking forward to having you back!  Glad the hospital went well. Now off you go.. trim your bits and get yourself ready for tom.


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Hello ladies  

Hope you all well and looking forward to the weekend! 

Re. DHEA discussion - just wanted to add that (and please note that I'm not suggesting self-medication to anyone and that you should talk to your own cons before considering taking anything   ) when I had my follow-up just a few weeks ago at the Lister and mentioned that I was contemplating taking it before my next tx my cons. didn't try to talk me out of it and was actually very supportive, she said it wouldn't do me any harm and that I might as well try it. Unfortunately I ended up not taking it (as ideally you should that it for at least 3-4 months before tx) as I just wanted to get on with my next cycle asap. Baseline scan booked for this Mon  

As for our GPs fertility knowledge and to ilustrate Miranda's point (and again, please not that this is my own experience), when I first started investigations last year at the age of 39 and had a initial blood test at our local surgery and my FSH day 3 result came back as 19 (and at the time I knew nothing about all these different hormones   ) dh and I were simply told 'everything is fine, you and your dh just get on with it' and we were pretty much left to our own device. Luckly I wasn't entirely convinced and booked ourselves a private consultation soon after that. The private cons. was appaled by our gp's lack of knowledge and response to my blood results.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oooh, an OAP crack den Steph! Blimey - must make the arthritis symproms fade a bit...  
Sunday morning then? I'll be here! Gnawing on my own arm with the stress! PLEASE let it be you this time.  Lots of love, sweetpea. 

Alegs - it's too true. I can see why they don't want to know about fertility - they're not in a position to offer many people tx so it can't be too fulfilling to know about it. But if they knew even the first thing it could make such a difference to people at the start of the IF journey - too much time is wasted because we trot off to our GPs thinking they know it all and it turns out the majority don't even know the basics.

Laura - it sounds like it's been a knackering week for you! And it was tiring weather today - I slept till 10am and then had an afternoon nap.

xx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Just in from SATC, so quick read back and then bed for me, night night x x x


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## ClaireP (Feb 18, 2005)

Hi ladies

I am glad DHEA is being discussed at the moment as I was going to post about it separately, I have ordered some DHEA after reading up on it from various sources etc including the very informative ladies on here.

You can imagine my total disappointment when I had my follow-up appointment at ARGC yesterday after my BFN in February and they categorically told me not to take it and I asked why.... they said that it interferes with hormone levels and increases lh levels. This clearly impacts on starting tx if your lh levels are too high and also whilst stimming to prevent spontaneous ovulation. I have borderline fsh levels and high oestradial, my last antral follicle counts from the scan have been 3 and 5. They advised me not to take it and saw no benefit when they tried it a year or so ago there on pregnancy rates.

Clearly, to name a few the Lister is in favour and they specialise more in high fshers etc. so I cannot understand how the opinions of 2 leading clinics are poles apart?

I am now really in a dilemma about whether to take it as I feel they scared me into not taking it when I have read a lot of good things about it particularly for poor responders. ARGC mentioned that a lot of the sources who favour DHEA were not medically trained (Zita West for example) and how worrying was it that a clinic in Wales is actually using it in ivf trials.

Please can you lovely ladies put your penny's worth in as I don't feel that I just want to be scaremongered into not taking it.

Thanks
Claire xx

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Claire- I don't feel knowledgeable in giving you my two pennies worth about DHEA as I don't know that much about it's effects etc but after doing some research and talking to people I decided to take it 4 months prior to this cycle, I didn't speak with my clinic as they are not very open to suggestions and you fit their programme, rather than have it tailored made. I decided that for this cycle it was worth it for me to self medicate with DHEA and along with some other changes that I made to my tx cycle something has given me my BFP.

I'm sure that one of the others will be along later on and will be able to give you more help and info, wishing you lots of luck and hope that you achieve your dream   

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## matchbox (Dec 17, 2006)

Bit of good news, both of my eggs fertilised. ET on Monday.  


Andi
xxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Andi- that's really good news, good luck for ET on Monday


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Andi - well done! That's a great result. Two are all you need, after all!

Claire - have you read over the last few pages? We've had quite a discussion about DHEA!

Pretty much all the BFPs we've had on this thread have come after a few months of DHEA.

I'm encouraged by this study our resident doctor Nicks found: 

1: J Assist Reprod Genet. 2007 Dec 11 
Update on the use of dehydroepiandrosterone supplementation among women with diminished ovarian function.
Barad D, Brill H, Gleicher N.
Department of Epidemiology and Social Medicine, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY, USA.

OBJECTIVE: We assessed the role of DHEA supplementation on pregnancy rates in women with diminished ovarian function. 
DESIGN: This is a case control study of 190 women with diminished ovarian function. The study group includes 89 patients who used supplementation with 75 mg daily of oral, micronized DHEA for up to 4 months prior to entry into in vitro fertilization (IVF).
The control group is composed of 101 couples who received infertility treatment, but did not use DHEA. The primary outcome was clinical pregnancy after the patient's initial visit. We developed a Cox proportional hazards model to compare the proportional hazards of pregnancy among women using DHEA with the controls group. 
RESULTS: Cumulative clinical pregnancy rates were significantly higher in the study group (25 pregnancies; 28.4% vs. 11 pregnancies; 11.9%; relative hazard of pregnancy in study group (HR 3.8; 95% CI 1.2-11.8; p < 0.05). 
CONCLUSIONS: DHEA treatment resulted in significantly higher cumulative pregnancy rates. These data support a beneficial effect of DHEA supplementation among women with diminished ovarian function.
PMID: 18071895 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

I guess the thing is to determine whether you are indeed a poor responder, and one can't really tell by your antral follicle count alone. Have you had other cycles? Have you had an AMH test?

/links

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Is that the line I should be adding, Natasha?


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## jennig (Nov 19, 2007)

Hi all,

Just catching up with whats been happening!

Nicks- congrats on the safe arrival of Emily- can't wait to see some pictures- hope the hernia is a bit better??

Steph- hope you have a great time at the wedding and have everything crossed for you for tomorrow

Laura- tiredness is a good sign I think- but know what you mean I could'nt wait to get home last night but having slept for about 12 hours I still don't feel refreshed today!! Good luck for your scan next week

Beach- so pleased things are going well with you- when is your EDD as think we are quite close- although its scary thinking that far ahead yet!!

Swoo- so pleased for you too- think you had a question about cyclogest?? My cons suggested to take it up to 12 weeks- she said there is no evidence it can help or make a difference- but I decided to give it a go

Bugle- hope you are well and good luck for 12 week scan

Miranda-agree with your and others comments re benefits of DHEA- my cons opinion was its not licensed so she cannot endorse/prescribe it but in her opinion as its already something we produce naturally it is unlikely to do any harm and as levels decrease as we get older it may be of some benefit. No idea if it contributed to our BFP but don't feel it did me any harm- so think we all have to decide for ourselves taking on board advice from our cons and reviewing the science thats available.

Well very pleased and relieved to say we had another scan last Tuesday and everything looked ok- amazing the difference from 1st scan 3 weeks ago in that we could see arms and legs and lots of movement was absolutely amazing!! 12 week NHS scan now booked for 17th June- so our EDD is 24-27th Dec no exact date yet

Love to all I've missed

Jenxx

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi Jennig- glad that all is going well for you, my EDD is between 3-5 .1.09 xxx


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

Miranda7 said:


> Is that the line I should be adding, Natasha?


Miranda.....as Mods, we will add any disclaimers as necessary so you don't need to.....cheers anyway 

Take care
Natasha


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi,

Well I had a little bit of bleeding again today, same as what I've had before, sneezed, pessary out (the one from last night!!) and had few bits of black scab type blood in it and was all pink in color (its a white cream pessary).  Maybe its the Clexane, if its m/c srely the blood would be heavier?  Anyway gonna post on peer support and midwife try put mind at ease.    worried not gettingenough progest too as it keeps coming out, really don't understand why it isn't getting absorbed??

Steph - Enjoy the wedding.

Claire - Welcome.

Jen - Oh a xmas baby!

Beach - Morning dear.

Hello to the rest of the gang. XX


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Laura   hope that you're taking it easy x x x


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I'm just starting to get a bit fed up, its exhausting being worrried for so long.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Laura - when I was at your stage and scared out of my wits Pete put my mind at ease a bit - his ex wife had a few miscarriages and she was in agony. I don't think it's anything to worry about as long as you're not in lots of pain.
Roll on Friday!

Jen - ooooh, a Christmas baby! Will you call him Jesus if he's born on the day?   Or Holly if it's a girl?

Morning Beachie! Or rather, afternoon. It's finally sunnt here, so I'm going to try and do some weeding. It's so bloody hard to do when you can't bend very well.
My back garden and my lady garden will look like forests this year, methinks. Fortunately I can no longer see the latter...


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

No I know, when I had my ectopic I was in with lots of people having m/c and they in agaony and was heavy blood.  But just worrying its the start of something.  I do stilll have mild af types pains on and off but nothing really.  Think I just need to keep busy.  Roll on Friday.

Lets hope the nausea returns soon, boobs looking nice and big though!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Mild AF pains are completely normal though, so you don't need to worry about them.

Don't wish the nausea on yourself - you'll get bored of it!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm in an hormonal mood today..


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oo, hormonal. Sure it isn't the weather? It's kind of humid and stormy here. Always makes me a bit flippertigibbet.

I could cry at anything though, with the preggers hormones. Get used to it - it lasts the full nine months!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

I feel like crying too! 

Got headache, got that the day before I started to bleed last time.


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## *Lollipop* (Feb 1, 2007)

awww...girlies it aint that bad honest...!!! 

anyway just popped on to wish my dear Steph all the best of luck for tomorrow, will be thinking of you honey...   

sorry Ive been quiet for a while, been doing a lot of soul searching..we celebrated my ds 12th birthday on the 29th...It was exactly 11 years that day that I gave up the pill...made me look at things in a different light as you will see by my signature we have decided it is time to call it a day...I think with what has just happened too with my last cycle, its just been 11 years of stress and ive watched my ds grow up, luckily enough we have enjoyed his childhood with him so I dont feel as though we have just concentrated on ttc these last 11 years..although I have spent a lot of time in hospital for operations and treatment in between...We went to Chessington the other day and he said..Im so glad you are not sad anymore Mummy...I like to see you laugh. Well that has made my mind up...

I will pop on again soon and catch up with all you PR and PG girlies.., will enjoy being there with you all through your pregnancies and eventually holding the little bubbas...please dont think Im leaving I will always be a PR girl at heart... ...Im sure you'll understand where Im coming from.I just feel that Its time for me to move on girls. 

Mrs Chaos who is also a FF is in a similar situation to me and she has very kindly started a thread for moving on with an only child, so Ill probably be posting on there more often now..Hopefully it will help me get my head round things and stop the meds... 

Please,Please take extra special care all of you...dont really know what Im saying right now..as you guessed it having a wee Asti....

Love you all and will keep in touch.. ....wish you all the luck in the world my dear friends...xxxxxxxxxxxxx.... ...you see you dont have to be PG to get hormonal.... 

Mir - is it time for the gloves and newspaper yet Mrs...


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## *Lollipop* (Feb 1, 2007)

sorry posts crossed Laura...come on Mrs...PMA....xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Gab! There you are!

I'm happy for you, that you've made a decision. I know how hard you must have found it, but just to be able to put it behind you must be such a relief in so many ways.

I do hope you'll enjoy the emigration, and keep up with the thread. You have my email and stuff on ******** - use it!

Laura - I had headaches through the first trimester. So stop worrying - this one is The One. Or maybe even the Two or the Three! The Five? Ahem...


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Gabs I totally understand, I'm glad you have made the decision and you have so much to look forward too with the move.  Me and Tim have been talking about moving abroad, we can't really afford to buy a nice house in a nice place in this country so maybe we'll meet youover there!!  Promise we will meet up again before you go?  

Mirra - I know i'm being a misery guts, if I didn't have bleeding i think I would be doing ok, Friday can't come quickly enough. I wish I could just accept there is nothign i can do and stressing only makes it worse.  But I can't.  Worked out I started bleeding 6+2 last time so I guess thats making me edgey.    I wish google didn't exsist!!

Anyway we going out for dinner to cheer me up a bit.  Had a busy day, met the local newspaper to show her where the fox murders had taken place this morning, then trudged around 3 cycling shops with tim to as he wants to get a new racing bike and can't drive himself and then just completely cleaned the bathroom from top to bottom.... now some grub!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Fox murders?


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes.. did i not tell you about it?  Thought I had, must have been on another thread.  Someone has killed and nailed 8 foxes to a fence in a field near us... really not very pleasant... not sure why someone would do that?

Anyway my belly is grumbling... must go eat.  Cath you later.

XXX


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

[email protected]


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## Kazzie40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi everyone - Laura please try to stop worrying as slight bleeding is very common in early pregnancy as is cramping pains it's where everything is stretching out in preparation to accomodate your little one(s) also if it is multiples bleeding is even more common. Are you having a scan on Friday? if so I really hope that you get the reassurance you badly need.

Steph everythings crossed that this is it for you - I will be logging on to see if you POAS.

Gabs I hope you find peace in your decision it could not have been easy for you.

We are finding Istanbul very very busy - we are in an apartment off one of the side streets near taksim square so it can sometimes be loud at night but not always.

The traffic is mad and the drivers are nutters!! I am scared for my boys in the back of the taxis as they drive like that and have no seat belts.

We are starting to enjoy it now we have recovered from the journey and the lack of sleep, found our bearings a bit and have started using the indoor pool at the Gonen - the kids love it and usually there is noone there but us!

As usual I am sweating again it seems some of my six eggs have reached time to pop stage and I had my HCG at 9.45 tonight a quarter of an hour late as they wanted it to be 9.30 but I had to go to accident and emergency where I was booked in to have it and although we were on time I think they simply forgot about us until I reminded them!

The reason I am worried is that I picked up the vibe that the doctors may be worried that I might ovulate prematurely - they have said as long as I don't they will do egg collection on Monday. They don't usually do this but they are doing bloods and scan tomorrow morning again.

Also they told me today that with the number of eggs and my husbands translocation we might not get any healthy embies at all but too be honest I just want to get to the stage where there are some embies and worry about it then.

The other thing they said is well is that although they saw six eggs my oestradial level is a lot lower then they would expect - does this mean that not many of the six eggs are ok?

It would be nice to just be normal for once to be honest and things go as they should but I kinda get the impression that things can look grim and a BFP is achieved or it can look as good as it gets but no BFP.

I am really hoping that we have some incredible luck and that I don't ovulate prematurely and we get a nice sticky embie out of our small number of eggs and poor odds overall.

By the way I wanted to ask what classifies you as a PR? I know obviously it would be if you didn't respond to the meds at all but wondered about the number of eggs?

Best of luck ( and I do think that this plays a big part ) to everyone else - take care love Karen xxx


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all 

the wedding went well, though I did find it hard at times to stay chatty/sociable and not to go off into a little world of my own, especially watching my little nephew and all my friend's kids running round and playing together. Came home quite early as was getting a headache, and had AF pains (not too bad) on and off all afternoon. Headache quite bad now so will be off to bed soon - I really don't know what to think about tomorrow, have no sore boobs or anything like that - I am expecting a negative but hoping against all hope it will be a positive!    

*Gabs* - huge  for you, D & D - I know it must have been so hard to make that decision - feel so proud of you!  it must have taken a lot of strength to do it. I really hope it brings you some peace and lots of mental energy to devote to your exciting new life in Oz - I will always, always be praying for a natural BFP for you, stranger things have happened and you never know!    Please don't disappear - keep in touch! 

*Kazzie* - am  that you will have some lovely eggs, that they won't pop too soon, and that there are some that will test normal for your translocation. Sending you lots of    - wishing you heaps of good luck hon! As far as I know, anything under 5/6 is considered a poor response by many clinics - with 8/9 eggs being considered an average amount.

*Laura* - aww - poor foxes!  I'm sorry you're feeling so worried sweetheart  - roll on Friday and some reassurance for you!   

*Alegria* - good luck for your baseline scan on Monday - hope you have some lovely clear antral follicles to be seen   

*Matchbox* - well done on 100% fertilisation - that's fantastic!  Hope they are two lovely quality embies by Monday to go back where they belong, inside you - good luck!   

*Beachy* - how was the SATC film? any good?

*ClaireP* - It's a tough call to make when you need to trust your consultant to be giving you the right info for you  I myself have been taking DHEA since December when I was between clinics, I started it off my own back but checked with the Jinemed doctors as soon as I spoke to them in January that they were happy with me taking it, which they were. Good luck with your next treatment, regardless of whether you choose to take the DHEA or not, I really hope it will work for you next time   

*Jennig* - hi hon!  so glad to hear all is well with you and baby growing well on your scan - great news! 

Sorry if I've missed anyone -  to all - I'll let you know how I get on tomorrow! (gulp!)

love Steph xx


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Steph -          I am so hoping you will get your much deserved BFP tom.  

Kazzie - Think my E2 was low too, I got 7 mature eggs... do you know what your's is?  What size are your follies?  I'm glad they are monitoring you closely and I'm sure you will get some good embies, you sound like you are me... I only ever heard the negative things that are mentioned too!! 

Mirra - Its awful isn't it, poor beautiful foxes.  Just drove home for restaurant and saw loads of lovely deer, I love animals, I so don't understand how people can hurt them.  

My dinner was yummy!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Good Morning

Steph wishing you lots and lots of luck for today, will be praying for you


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Steph - hope you managed some sleep and I'm also praying for a positive for you this morning.  

Karen - it sounds like no sooner than you settle down there it's time for EC!
Try not to worry about E2 - mine was low too, and they pumped it up with oestrogen tablets. If it was that bad you'd be on them or the patches.

We're all PRs in as much as we have little or no response to average stims for our ages, and manage a low egg count or normal egg count on high stims (450-600iu).
So while Laura produced 7 eggs, she had a lot of stims for her age to get them. 

Laura - I don't understand how people can hurt animals either. It's just unforgiveable, as they have no way of letting anyone know they are being hurt.


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Morning Mir- how are you today?  Any plans?  I might go and have a nap for an hour or 2....


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I was going to go car booting, but I woke at 4am and forced myself to go back to sleep, which has ended up with me getting up too late!  

More weeding I should think, as the weather's nice.

What are you up to today apart from your nap?

I'm fine each day, apart from being tired, until I eat dinner, then I'm stuffed! I have to lie down because there's no room for dinner any more!
How are you? Have you told everyone yet? I told everyone in the world straight away...


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Hi all,

 for me.

Got no words at the moment  - will be back later xx

Steph xx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Oh Steph, I'm so, so sorry.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

Steph ... I am so sorry that you have to go through this xxx   thinking of you and DH


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Steph -    oh hun, I'm so sorry     I really wanted this to work for you.  Life is so unfair  

Hello to everyone else, sorry no more personals - I am reading, it's just that it's hard to post as guests are still here until Thursday - then we have more arriving on Sunday    I don't mind as it's a good friend who's arriving next Sunday xxxxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Steph- I'm so so sorry    thinking of you xxx


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Emma-you're like a B & B aren't you.....I'll be there from the 7th July


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## *Lollipop* (Feb 1, 2007)

Steph - Im so,so sorry...have Pm'd you.... ....you and Paul are always in my prayers...


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## jennig (Nov 19, 2007)

So so sorry Steph- its so unfair- thinking of you and DH


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Steph - I'm so so sorry.    Here for you when you are ready.  

Hello everyone else.  Well appparently I have not been bleeding, the crinone gel I've been using turns pink and can have gritty black bits in if it comes out after been 'up there' for a while. So aht i've been thinking is blood and scabby bits it just the gell.   I feel a fraud for getting in such a panic.  Sorry Girls for being so demanding. I'll stop being manic now


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Steph - so sorry    thinking of you and your DH x x 

Hi to everyone else, need to read back on the posts as have missed so much, been so busy the last couple of days.

Swoo x


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Laura -   but glad that it's a worry over nothing...now please try and relax (I know, easier said than done) - your twins (my bet  ) need a chilled Mummy  

Beach - If you do come out on 7th July, make sure you bring some pressies - it's my birthday...35!!! 

Friends have gone out to dinner so I've had the chance to have a longer peek on here - need to do some catching up to see where everyone is.


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## alegria (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh Steph, I'm so sorry    I so wanted it to be your turn... Thinking of you and Paul    

Alegria x


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## lucky_mum (Dec 16, 2005)

Thanks my lovely friends 

Feeling very, very low right now. 

But am sure once I've got my head together we will move onto whatever's next, back to the Jinemed either this month or next month, not sure yet.

As always the support from my FFs means the world and helps give me the strength to carry on and think    - and I am very grateful. 

Steph xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Will you be doing a natural cycle again, Steph? Or stims but no pill? Did Dr T say anything after your ET?

God, I so hoped this would work for you this time - you've been through so much.  

Laura - that's a relief about the gell turning pink! Who would have thunk it?

I just went to a great car boot sale - got everything I needed but only managed to get halfway round. It's too hot and too far and too many stalls. Got masses of serial killer books for 50p each! They'll keep me going for quite a while, and I read a book every two days...


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## Kazzie40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi everyone - steph I am gutted for you also   you really deserve a visit from the babydust fairy I really hope that it is your turn soon though I know how difficult it is to keep picking yourself up after the disappointments. I hope that you can arrange to go to jinemed soon to get a plan of action in place.    
Laura glad to hear that your scare didn't turn out to be scary afterall   don't worry about expressing your fears it is what gets us all through this roller coaster whereever we are on the ride.
I am completely paranoid now about my eggs - my oestradial I think was something like 697 yesterday ( half what it should be for 6 eggs aparantly ) and when I asked if it was ok for me to go swimming today they said no my oestradial was LOWER then yesterday and they wanted me to go home and rest.  They have moved my egg collection to 8.30 tomorrow and I swear that they think the eggs might pop - there was no english speaking ones today but I looked at the screen and think that one was 24 some 22 and others 21 and 19.
So I am stressed over any pains or twinges worrying that my eggs are thinking about popping. I have to get to 8.30 tomorrow please   that they stay intact for me! Hi to everyone else - and good luck wherever you are on this journey.  Take care love Karen xxx


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi all!

Caveat - If I mention DHEA and you are logging on from the UK, DHEA is not licensed in the UK and I'm not recommending anyone take it unless they are under 24 hour medical supversion, have blood tests at least every half hour etc. Also, if I mention AMH and you are logging on from the US, the AMH test has not been approved by the FDA so, obviously, your doctor is just recommending it for general amusement and you can't rely on it for anything, ever..

Anyway....

Steph - I am so sorry  I know you must be devastated and I can't offer anything like adequate consolation. Hopefully it's onward and upward from here though.   

ClaireP - I know it is very frustrating when clinics give different views and I don't pretend to be an expert on the different clinics. However, I would say that, from what I understand, the ARGC has very strict criteria for its treatment programmes. FSH above 10? Forget it! Accordingly, if you look at its stats, it treats relatively few women over 35. From its 2005 stats you can see there were 156 IVF cycles there for women less than 35; this halved to 75 for women aged 35-37 and plunged to 33 for women aged 38-39 and 11 for women aged 40-42. Contrast the Lister. Its statistics are given for the period January 2005 to December 2006 so, for the sake of argument, I've halved their numbers to give an idea of how many women they have treated in the different age groups. It would be 265 women aged 35-37, 201 aged 38-39 and 280 aged 40-42. DHEA levels only really start to fall at 30 and more rapidly beyond 35. I would say, therefore, that the Lister is going to be much more experienced in dealing with cases in which DHEA supplementation is likely to be useful. Most ARGC patients are unlikely to have declining DHEA levels because they are simply too young - I would be cautious recommending it to someone under 30 and would suggest a dose of 25-50mg for those under 35 (I think for this reason Miranda took only 50mg) but I really do feel that beyond 35 a dose of 75mg is perfectly harmless and may even do some good - if the Lister acknowledge this then I would take their word for it because I think they will have more experience than the ARGC of its possible benefits in "older" (ie over 35!) women. Just my take on it. Also, never read anything to the effect of it resulting in any problems due to increased LH.

Gabs - lovely to see you; totally understand how you feel and hope you will still pop by sometimes. You never know when that natural miracle will happen and meantime it must have been so special for your son to say how wonderful it was to see you happy. 

Miranda - glad you have some good reading. 

LauraB - you may, just possibly, be more of an obsessive worrier than me.... DP however says that is impossible so I'm not sure... Anyway, so glad there is an explanation and that all is ok. Remember AF pains are common early on too. 

Beach - you are due very soon after Kate, but she has been told that twins are likely to be early so it may not be that close. Her EDD is 28th December 2008.

Karen - am  that all goes well for you. The move to 8.30 tomorrow shows they know what they are doing and is probably good. I don't know exactly what the estradiol levels mean in terms of eggs but someone else probably will. With what is a poor response - no idea!! Some studies suggest 4 or less but I agree that most clinics regard 8, 9, 10 or so as a decent number. However, as we've all said, it is quality that really matters. Two good eggs which make 2 good embies is just as good as 10 eggs where only 2 fertilise. Right now I think you shoudl take the clinic's advice and rest. Best of luck for EC tomorrow.  

Matchbox/Andi - so pleased to hear about your 100% fertilisation.   for ET

EmmaChoc - hi there - glad all is still going well

JenniG - thrilled to hear about your scan. Great news that all is going well.

Swoo - hi there! when is your next scan? Got an EDD yet??

Alegria -  so very hard that your next treatment is successful. You were Kate's test date buddy and though you weren't so lucky on that cycle I really really hope that your day will come.   

Love to everyone else.

Went to see the SATC film yesterday with friends. Didn't go out in the evening as got all emotional with DP over egg freezing. Rant included anger over dodgy AMH tests (I think the words were "my scan will probably show 3 ovaries - I'm told that doesn't increase from 2 but what do they know?"); fear of non-response; fed up with healthy eating/vitamin guzzling/reduced drinking and sceptcisim over whether it actually makes any difference; fury at being dragged into all this because of sister when I had never worried before; worry about whether stims will hurt etc. etc. etc. Anyway, I cried and said I was tired of it all so I went to sleep. He was very sweet and told me he loved me and that we'd see how it went and then take it from there. Feel better today.

Spoke to Kate today - she is fine but still tired. Nuchal scan and tests on 17th June. She gets the results and things immediately.

*FF does not condone or encourage self medicating ~ please discuss with your consultant first


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

QUickie from me as waiting for DH to get out of bath so we can continue watching Premonition...

What's everyone's thoughts on having a private nuchal scan?


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Aw LilJen - it doesn't necessarily follow that you both will have a poor response! My sister seems to have an entirely different body than me. I should get her to have an FSH test really, and and AMH, to check!

My poor response comes from my father's side, by all accounts - my aunt and her three daughters all reached the full menopause by 40.

My sister seems to be following our mum's side - my mum hit the menopause at 52.

Karen - good luck for tomorow! It's very, very rare to ovulate early, so hopefully everything will be fine. 

Beach - I didn't ask for nuchal, as I didn't want any more worry! Doesn't the NHS offer nuchals in your area? I thought they all did?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Mir- from what I thought the MW said the other , the hospital does do it but for some reason I might not get one


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Miranda - from FSH, latest AMH and antral follicle count I know I have no rational reason to fear a poor response and Kate did have poor FSH.  However, I think I've very much learned that all this is not an exact science and that some people can respond unexpectly well/badly in total defiance of their results.  Doctor seemed to think all was ok but I have never been one to trust doctors (sorry Nicks!!) so I still worry. 

Beach - Kate is having a private nuchal scan since it wasn't offered in her NHS area.  So I assume she's a supporter of the idea!!


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Evening,

Had a lovely day out with my friend and her little girl, went fish shopping!  Was fun.  Then they came back for some wine and nibble (water for me of course) and then me and tim just went for a walk over some fields and fed some horses... on the way back in the car park there was people having sex in the car!!  All we could see was this little white bum going up and down!!

LJ - You know I used to be a very confident person, not I'm a whigey nervous wreck, IF really takes it toll.

Beach - Yup, I don't really see why you should have to pay private, but if thats the only choice then I'd go for it.

Mirra  - Oh Booties!  I love a good rumage at a boot fair... although I don't gonow as we have so much crap no room for any more!

Kazzie - Your E2 is higher than mine was and I had 7 eggs, its all just numbers.  Think mine was about 500.  Good Luck tomorrow!!!

Steph - Wish I could do something to make you feel better.  

XXX


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks for replies xxx

Laura- sounds like someone was having fun in the car


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

LJ - Please don't get yoursefl all worked up over your egg freezing is... even if you do take after your sister thats not a bad thing!!  She did get 2 babies on her first go!!! I'm sure you will respond fine and have plenty in the freezer for when your ready.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Hmmmn, I was pretty sure it was on offer, Beach, but that you have to actually ask for it - they won't do it as standard. It should be somewhere in all the bumpf your midwife gives you on her first visit.

Laura - the sheer amount of baby stuff at boot sales is amazing - I got the monitor I wanted - the one that does everything but boil a kettle - for a tenner, and they're at least £60 new. So you'll need em when that scan reveals quins!

LilJen - who knows what response you'll have with that bouncing AMH of yours?   But I'm sure you'll get enough for a few goes when you're ready to start trying.
It'd be typical if you just decided to start trying and fell naturally in the first few months!


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Mir- your car boot sounds fabulous, might come and visit you and go there...am hoping I can get some cheap things as everything so expensive.


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## laurab (Apr 17, 2006)

Yeah Mirra when we all come to see Bob you'll have to take us to one of your up market bootie... although maybe me and beach should not come together as we will be fighting over the good stuff!


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks Everyone!

Mira - I'm trying to be optimistic that my AMH is on the way up!!!  The docs seem to be discounting the 0.4 as a lab error since it was so out of line so they are just going with the 1.6 and 2.3 which aren't too bad.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

It would be amazing if they could prove that DHEA raised your AMH LilJen! Either that or they prove that you're an alien!  

It would be great if you could come and visit, you two! The house would be crammed with babies, too. 

I also got a Winnie the Pooh blanket for £1 - given that I spent £35 on a Pooh coverlet in Mothercare the other day that seems a bargain! And a stand for my moses basket for £2, a Pooh lamp for £3... Loads. Wish I'd had the energy to go round the whole lot, but was knacked after the hour I did.

Oh, and i got a bagpuss hot water bottle cover for £1!!! always wanted one of those.

God, my jack russell smells. She's on my lap and honking to high heaven.


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## c_hill (Feb 8, 2007)

Hi ladies,

Sorry to butt in hoping you might have some advice for me.  I'm on my 2nd ICSI and on a short protocal with menopur (450) and cetrotide.  This time has been pretty awlful only five follies, which are all different sizes, so expecting the treatment to be cancelled tomorrow.  The first time I was on a long protocal with gonalF, again slow response, 4 eggs and no fertilization. All of my hormone tests have been normal and there's no real reason why this might be happening.

I'm with an NHS clinic so find them a little non-communicative, but keep asking them whether there are any other options for us if this doesn't work.  Do you know whether there are any other drug protocals, which can be offered if a short protocal doesn't make any difference?

Thanks

C


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Miranda - like the haul of pooh stuff and especially the Bagpuss hotbot!

LauraB - I think that IF can really take its toll on people.  I really hope that you can recover your former confidence.  You certainly deserve to.  

Chill - I don't know much about protocols but I am sure that other ladies here will be able to advise. There are plenty of people here who know what you are going through and who can help.  Meanwhile, I am not sure why they would cancel on 5 follies.  My sister only had 5 follies and only 2 were a decent size.  She still got 2 frosties and her twins are due in December.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I wouldn't let them cancel again, C. Five is a reasonable crop, really it is. I'd say it was best to get those eggs out and see what they're like.

I was on 300iu Gonal F, plus 150iu Menopur and letrazole tablets for my last cycle. Perhaps they would consider using that? I doubt they'd use letrazole, but they may be persuaded to use Clomid instead. But so much depends on their level of expertise and flexibility.

I think if they do abandon you need to get an AMH test done, as I'm pretty sure the NHS only does FSH. My FSH was normal too - it was my AMH that told me why I was responding poorly. That would have to be done privately, but well worth it.

Where are you in the country?


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Hi all hope you're well!

Scuse me for butting in with a "me" post.  Been in ff hibernation for a while but I am just about to do the last free cycle in France, last ditch effort to get preg for "free" before blowing our life savings at the ARGC. 

I just wanted to ask a question about LH suppresants (Orgalutran) and poor responders.  

We saw our cons yesterday and after some discussion decided we were going to start stimming with 300iu  menopur (instead of the usual mix of 450 GonalF and then 450 Gonal +300 Menopur) from day 2 of this cycle. The logic behind the lower dose is that even if I don't get many eggs, or if I have to stimm a bit longer than usual, the eggs should hopefully be better quality. Then DH reminds me that he'll be away on the weekend of 12/6 which would have been EC. So the doc suggests I take .25iu Orgalutran daily until at least 12/6 and I wont start stimming until around 6/6 (day 5 of my cycle) to allow us to delay ovulation/EC until after DH gets back.

But he didn't change the dose of Menopur to take into account the fact that Orgalutran slows down the stimming effect.  Originally I was happy to give it a go on the lower dose, but now I'm going to be taking Orgalutran for at least a week before I even start stimming, I'm worried that I'll end up with no follies at all.

Has anyone else had a similar treatment plan and still managed to produce good quality eggs?

Thanks girlies

Nix
xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Hello again!

I had Cetrotide halfway through stims to hold back ovulation - I think it does the same thing, but do check. Laura had that also.

In my case it was to stop me ovulating before my eggs had ripened.

Does that help? I quickly Googled Cetrotide and it seems to be the same thing?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Kazzie -    for EC today   that you get a good crop   

Steph -   It's good that you've got a plan of action, always helps to look forward    

LB - So you and Tim go out dogging then?  That's what they call people who watch others having sex in their cars.  Didn't some famous footballer get caught doing it?

Beach - Good luck for scan today     Re the nuchal - not everywhere in the UK offers it.  My sister had it with her first baby, but they'd moved by the time she got pg with her second and the area they moved into didn't offer it on the NHS, so they had a private scan.  I guess you have to ask yourself if you did have a nuchal scan, be it private or on the NHS, if it came up as high risk would you have invasive testing, i.e. a CVS and would you continue with the pregnancy if the results confirmed the baby had abnormalities.  It's a very personal decision.  I had a nuchal and bloods at 12 weeks, which they reckon is 80-90% accurate at detecting Downs.

Nix - I only had centrotide from about day 5 of stimms and I started stimming on day 2, so slightly different to what your Cons is recommending for you.  On my 2nd IVF I had 450 menopur for two days and then 300 for the remaining days of stimming.  My doc didn't believe in flooding the system with drugs as it affects the quality of the eggs.  I got 8 eggs the second time compared to 6 the first time.  In your shoes I would try to speak to your Con again and voice your concerns otherwise you'll make yourself ill with worry and frustration   

LilJen -   You're getting all emotional and you haven't even started the drugs yet    We'll get you though stimms, etc. You can rant and rave as much as you like on here - we don't mind.  Mind you, if you get more than 10 eggs we'll have to consider chucking you off the thread    When do you start DR?  SATC doesn't open here until Thursday  

Mira - What bargains you found    I've been looking on the expat websites for baby stuff as it's so expensive here.  They do have a Mothercare but everything costs more than the UK.  I still haven't bought anything for the baby.  I've succumbed to pregnancy magazines though and seem to have spent a small fortune on them, given that they seem to double the price of them just 'coz they've come from the UK.

Alegria, Swoo, Nickster, Bugle, Cath, Sunshine and everyone else  

xxxxxx


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Gabs/Lolli - Am so sorry, I totally forgot you in my last post    I was just listening to Steve Wright interview a Scots guy - Hardeep Singh Kohli and I thought of you.  It must have been a hard decision to stop tx, especially since you've been trying for #2 for so long.  Please keep popping onto the thread and let us know how you're doing as we'll miss your Asti moments    I wish you every success in the next stage of your life and may it be filled with love, laughter and happiness


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I didn't start buying baby stuff till I was 33 weeks, Emma! Couln't get my head round it being bad luck. I'm still buying stuff feeling like it's all going to go wrong and I'll be left with this lovely nursery, all fully equipped for a baby who's not there.

Awwww, has your mum sent you the Britain's Got Talent final? I just sat there in tears through that.

Pete's gone back to work now - so I'm up and about early! 

Beach - what time is your scan?


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Mir- 4.14pm x x x


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Mira - Yes, BGT DVD is in the post, although I found out who won as it was on Sky News and I wasn't quick enough at changing channels when they started talking about it.  I don't mind as DH doesn't know who's won so I'll just play along all ignorant.  I should hopefully get it buy Thursday which is when our visitors leave, so perfect timing!  Got three days to watch a weeks worth of BGT before the next visitors arrive.

Beach - Crikey, you've got to wait all day for the scan - is it your clinic that only do pg scans in the afternoon?

It's raining here - has been for the past week.  It's also sooooo humid.  Visitors have gone out on their own today so I've had a day to chill...lovely  

xx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Nice one! Always good when visitors clear off for a bit. Back to bed for you!

Oo, but it's been good this week, BGT. I LOVED Signature - the Michael Jackson/Bangra dance duo. They are bloody brilliant. Oh, and Escala, the string quartet - they're meant to have a £1 million deal already, and I'm not surprised.

With George, the win will completely change his life, so it's a wonderful thing. Blinking Sky News! Couldn't they keep it to themselves?
Isn't there a channel or two on Sky where you can get BBC and ITV programmes? My Swedish mate got one years ago to keep up with eastEnders before it went so depressing.

Ooooh, 4.15 - ages away, Beach! I'm so glad it's going so well for you - hope the scan is done by someone nice! Medics are so variable in their temperaments.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

We subscribe to Sky news, we don't actually have a satellite dish, it's all digital here.  We do get some BBC channels, such as BBC Entertainment, BBC Lifestyle but they are so behind the UK, e.g. they are just showing the first series of the UK Apprentice.  Another BBC channel is showing Dancing With The Stars - the American one - which isn't as good as Strictly Come Dancing.  They don't show the soaps here, but we do get some good programmes but they are so few and far between - my fav is Judge John Deed - only 'coz I have a thing for Martin Shaw    

New bras have arrived from Bravissimo this morning, so I can breath a sigh of relief - I'm now a 34FF    They're gonna be bigger than the baby's head at this rate


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## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes, at work at the moment


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Beach - good luck with your scan today.

Hi to everyone else.  I'm back at work this week, so wont be around much, so have a good week all.

Swoo x x x


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

There was a point when I thought my boobs would just keep growing and growing! Fortunately they didn't!

I can get fitted for a nursing bra now - another thing to get round to.

Hmmn, not a great choice of progranmmes, eh? Lots of programmes you can now watch on the net, such as the Apprentice - do you do that?


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## Kazzie40 (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi everyone - beach good luck for your scan this afternoon - I think you asked about nuchal scans - I had them kinda on the NHS with my first two due to my DH translocation ( dogey gene ) and then with my angel baby Joshua I had one on the NHS first and when it was a bad result I went to fetal medicine centre in Harley St London to see if the odds improved - they got worse so I had a CVS on the spot which revealed that Joshua's chromosomes were all normal ironically but it turned out that the thick fold on the back of his neck was due to a servere heart condition hypoplastic left heart. They had told me when all clear chromosome wise to have a consultant scan on the heart as it can be due to a probelm and of course it was. Depending on where you live and finances I would highly recommend the FMC as they were excellent and I felt very safe in the doctors hands having a CVS as the m/c rate there is the same as amnio because they do it so often. I would definately go back there again if I was lucky enought to get a BFP.

I want you to know that my angel baby son's condition is rare so don't worry about that but just wanted to tell you that the nuchal scan can be accurately indicative of a probelm although I would always recommend the scan and bloods as they give a more accurate picture together. 

little jen - after just doing stims for the first time I want to tell you that if I can do it anyone can and you will be fine - I can't believe Im a dab hand at doing all those injections now, also there is no reason to believe that you will be the same as your sister but like someone else said even if you are look at her superb result - I don't think figures on paper mean too much to be honest - alot of it is luck luck and more luck I think.

Laura with my first successful pregnancy I was going out of bras every two weeks I kid you not - they just grew and grew and they didn't need any bolstering in the first place as I was DD to start with!!

As far as I can tell cetrotide is the same as organgulatan ( supresses ovulation ) as I would have been on that instead of cetrotide if Id gone to reprofit instead. I started cetrotide after 3 days of stims as I had a few eggs that were getting to 12-13mm.

I suppose they would it give to you before stimming to stop your natural cycle from occuring maybe?

Miranda well done you for your car booty booty and for your first baby too - excellent if I'd have realised that I was able to get such good bargains at car boots and in the paper I would have done that first time too - alas I didn't discover the loot to be had until I was on number two!! ( although it does sound as if you have a very good one there - where are you by the way? I think all the preggos are going to be heading your way in a mass group )

OK well you must have realised that I am back from the land of nod after egg collection - I didn't feel sore too much at first but its starting to be uncomfortable now. The boys have gone to the pool and left me with the computer, the DVD player and being able to read a book in peace - bliss!

So my news is that I didn't ovulate overnight thankgod and they collected 8 eggs which was 2 more then expected so obviously those missing two turned up - however I don't know at this stage how many of those are good or mature and am trying not to get my hopes up after the low oestradial levels yesterday. 

The patient relations girl who speaks english said they couldn't tell me until tomorrow how many were mature and how many fertilised - now I know they can't tell until the next day about fertilisation but I thought they could tell straight away how many mature eggs? please let me know if she is right.

So here we are again waiting and praying that those eggs will fertilize and we have some decent embies for PGD out of those.

I am scared but I suppose we all have to go through this. 

I think I will go and have a lie down whilst there is peace!!

Take care all love Karen xxx


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Good luck with the scan BG!

Emma and Mira - thanks for the responses on the Orgalutran.  I know it's supposed to stop me ovulating too early I'm just a bit worried that injecting it from before I even start stimming could mean I end up with no follies whatsoever.  I'm going to have to call him aren't I?  I hate doing that, they're so freaky over here about patients questioning the doctor in any way at all.  I've already fallen out with his secretary cos I would call and ask questions so now I contact him directly via his moby.  And even though he's more relaxed than most, even he has labelled me a "problem" patient just cos I ask questions.  It was said with a smile but I still felt the rebuke....  Oh  well needs must...!

Mira - nice one on the car boot sale baby bargains.  Coo, it's getting close now innit?! Are you excited? 
Emma - you are clever, I never thought of asking someone to record BGT for me and then post me the dvd, so I've been watching snippets on YouTube. I was so pleased when I heard George won though, bless his heart. I remember him from last year and I really wanted him to do well cos he's such a tryer.

Hey Swoozy, how are ya hon?

Kazzie - thanks to you too for the info on Orgalutran/Cetrotide and well done on such a good crop at EC. Fingers crossed that they were all mature and that you get a good fert rate and beyond! I can never remember whether they can tell the number of mature eggs on the day of EC or the next day but my lot will never give me any info until the next day anyway. It's like getting blood out of a stone with this lot!

Hi to everyone else, gotta go and curl up round a hot water bottle, cos the  has turned up in full force today.  It must be getting worse, I can't imagine how I used to get thru a full day at work with this kind of pain.  Trying to get through it with yoga and the ivf companion's "volume button" visualisation but if it doesn't let up soon, I'm busting out the cocodomol!

Love to all

Nix
xxx


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

Whoo! EIGHT eggs eh? That's a great crop, Karen! Double what I got, and ample for PGD. Just don't worry right now if they're mature or not - often they can fertilise immature eggs and not mature ones, so there's no guarantees either way - better waiting till tomorrow and getting the total and how they're doing.

Agh, Nix, I remember struggling through a work day with AF pain - I actually had a hot water bottle in my desk drawer! A couple of times I thought I was going to faint it was so bad.

Sod his reaction to you asking questions - this is the last time you'll have to put up with each other! It's your last free shot - make a nuisance of yourself, I would... Is there no way your DH can be there for EC so you don't have to do the suppressant that early?

I'm kind of scared and tired, rather than excited! I'm so paranoid that tends to cancel excitement out quite effectively. Ah well...


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## Jumanji (Feb 13, 2008)

Karen - congratulations on your fabulous 8 eggies!  It's just as with Kate - she had 5 and then they said only 4 but the straggler appeared again in time for EC and she got 5 eggs!  With maturity, remember things can still develop after EC even with eggs which seem to be immature.  Kate only had 2 mature eggs, but her 2 frosties both derived from immature eggs; they still fertilised and became a Grade 1 and a Grade 2 embie.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Kazzie -      on your 8 eggs.  I got 8 eggs on my last go so I consider it a very lucky amount.  You can tell the same day as EC whether they are mature or not, as I had a call from the clinic a couple of hours after I got home telling me that they were all mature and all had been injected (they do ICSI as standard out here).  Sending you lots of     for fertilisation  

Nix - I was always question my doc too - I think he found it strange at first as it's not the Chinese way.  Go on, give your doc a call and voice your concerns  - he'll hopefully be able to put your mind at rest which will make you feel more relaxed.  The more relaxed you are, the better it is for your potential embies.  Sorry to hear you have the AF from hell  

Mira - We don't watch stuff from the net as my lap top is so small and the other computer is in a room without comfy chairs.  Would I be able to link the lap top to the TV and watch stuff from the net via that?  

Got a sore throat and can't seem to stop eating the Cadburys Heros that my guests brought over for me    Am gutted that Cadburys have removed the crunchies and picnics from Heros and replaced them with Chocolate Eclairs and Bournville  

Off to bed soon, am shattered xxxxx


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

Miranda - I thought Signature were fab! So original   I bet that George lad has a cold now, the amount of times he got wet last week! Very good though.


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I was kind of hoping they'd win, but the win will change George's life much more, won't it?
Watching that sort of dancing always makes me twitch, like I want to try! But I know I'd be crap.  

Emma - there's a cable you can use to connect the computer to the telly, I'm sure of it.


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## Rachel (Mar 10, 2004)

Yes it will. He said he was doing it for his mom, bless him   I just heard on the radio coming back from the supermarket that Justin Timberlake has asked him to do a video with him and go on tour with him. Wow! That will definately change his life!


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Miranda7 said:


> I was kind of hoping they'd win, but the win will change George's life much more, won't it?
> Watching that sort of dancing always makes me twitch, like I want to try! But I know I'd be crap.


 Me too! I liked Signature as well but I think Georgy Porgy really needed it. I hope that's true about JT, what a fantastic break.... geddit?! OK sorry it was lame... (oh blimey, that 2nd one really was unintentional!)

By the way if you lot figure out a way to connect the telly to the pooter, let me in on it, I've tried but I can't get the bugger to work!


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## Miranda7 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm sure it's just a scart cable - I could Google it, but given you're both abroad I think it would be best if you went into a Curry's equivalent and asked. I know they exist, I just know it!

WOW! Justin Timberlake, Rachel? Wow! God, that young man is going to do well!


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## swoo (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi all 

Kazzie - great news on your eggs

Nix - I'm doing ok ta, no more swoozy episodes thank goodness  .  I was on orgalutron on this cycle, I started injecting it on day 2 after stimming started, same dose I think that you mentioned.  It does stop you ovulating.  You ask as many questions as you need to.  Are you doing a SP?? Hope you are ok  

BGT was great wasn't it, i really wanted George to win too, can't believe they let him get so wet though.  He must be mad  

Emma - you've made me sad about the heroes going missing.  I don't like eclairs or bourneville!!!!!! but love the ones they've stolen!!!!!

Work was yuk - I remember now how much I disliked it before     Oh well only 7 months till mat leave, not that I'm counting  

Hi to everyone else I've missed x x


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

will be locking thread in a few minutes so please save any messages before posting otherwise you may lose them....thanks

N x


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## ☼♥ Minxy ♥☼ © (Jan 13, 2005)

New home this way.......

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=142420.0

N x


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