# New girl - 2nd failed ICCI - big drop off rate of embs



## Bigears (Nov 9, 2005)

Hi

I wondering if anyone's in the same boat as me.  I seem to get plenty of eggs and most of them fertilize.  I'm having transfers on day 5 but only 1 each cycle has made it to day 5?  Has anyone else had a big drop off rate...I'm 35 and have been told this is unusual for someone in my age group

1st iCCI - 17 eggs, 11 embs, 1 trans - neg
2nd ICCI - 5 eggs, 5 embs, 1 trans - neg


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## Claudine (Jul 27, 2004)

Hi Bigears

I can't help with your query as the clinic I was at was pretty much only doing day 3 transfers.

I just wanted to let you know I have the feeling you won't get too many replies because there are not many clinics doing blast (which is what the embryos should be by day 5) transfers as a matter of course - though more do seem to be trying it out if there are still a number of embryos to choose from by day 3.

I believe the risk is with the culture medium that the clinic uses: if it is not spot on, then the risk is of course that the embryos do not get the nourishment that they need.  And I think the embryos have different requirements at different stages.  I think.

I am sure you see what I am getting at: it takes time and experience for clinics to be confident that they can take embryos to day 5 outside of where they should normally be, i.e. in the womb.

Apologies - this is probably stuff you know already but I thought if I replied, we might get some more people talking on the thread!

I'm sorry you haven't been successful yet.  As you say, plenty of eggs and good fertilisation.  Where are you at and what's your original diagnosis?


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## Bigears (Nov 9, 2005)

Hi Claudine

Thanks for your reply - I'm in Australia, I'm from Kent, married an aussie and have been out here for 3 years!  I suppose my question is the same -if people are having a big drop off after day 3 ...!  I've been told that a girl of my age should hope to have half her embs after day 5 and we are only getting one ...from what i hear it's either the quality of the eggs or like you say the embs not getting enough nourishment.  We were hoping the first cycle was just bad luck but then it happened again.  We can go for genetic testing on the embs but I don't really like the sound of that...!  I've got blocked tubes, weve been told icci is our best chance...

I've got a few friends doing IVF in the UK and it seems a few things are different over there...

Thanks again for your reply and all the best with your treatment


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## Claudine (Jul 27, 2004)

Hi  BigEars

Have you tried the IVF board given that this is probably what would be recommended over here if your dx is blocked tubes?  Also try www.ivfconnections.com as they are US based; (some of) the clinics are more advanced, and there are some very experienced and informed women on the boards.

PGD is supposed to be good for older women and detecting which embryos are chromosomally correct (I'm not that great on aneuploidy, haven't read up on it for quite a while) but as you say, at 35, you'd be hoping that you were still to young to be thinking your eggs were over half chromosomally challenged...

Hope you can find some answers elsewhere and wishing you lots of luck for your next cycle.


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## janna (Jun 6, 2005)

Hi Bigears

I am 36 (37 in May) years old and have just had my first negative go at ICSI my progress was
14 eggs collected, they injected 12, 8 fertilised, I then had 2 , 5 day blasts put back, the embryologist then thought that another 2 emmbies may progress overnight to be good enough to freeze on day 6 but they didnt, so out of 8 emmbies only 2 survived.

I am at the ARGC in London who do loads of day 5 transfers and get very good results. When I spoke to the embryologists the take that they have is that sometimes emmbbies that look really good on day 2 or 3 can then fizzle out, and therefore had they been put back on day 2 or 3 it's likely that you would be unsuccesful. Of course there is always the argument that maybe they are better off in the natural envirnoment instead of the incuabtor etc, but we will never know the answer to that one.

Maybe if you ask the question on the ARGC board you may get a lot more feedback. Best of luck to you, Janna x


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## 2Rachel2 (Nov 12, 2005)

Hi Bigears,
We have the same problem as you and after my recent near miss at the ARGC this Nov we are scratching our heads and having a rethink.
We do have a genetic issue - my DH has a balanced reciprocal translocation - which means many of the embie will be imbalanced.
He also has non obstructive Azoo, we are researching this a bit more right now - but he is taking Vit E DHA, betacarotene, Selenium Zinc....etc etc, and I was also interested by a lady who's gynae had just attended a conference in Oz more eggs are fertilised when LH and FSH drugs are used for stimming - like Menopur and Merional. My previous 2 cycles were Gonal F - not a good drug for us I think.
We had 14 - 21 eggs for the last 3 cycles, just under half fertilized, then there was a constant drop off rate - ARGC did get 2 Blasts for us - one nearly took then AF arrived... biochemical pregnancy.... You may need to go for the genetic screening - it is just a blood test - and look at getting the sperm as healthy as poss. We are only interested in getting Blasts at this stage, as if they cannot grow to this stage there is no point going through with ET. I would be shocked if a clinic that was offering Blast service did not use the special medium after day 3 - check it out. 
Rachel


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## Tyler (Apr 25, 2005)

Hi Bigears

I just wanted to post a positive thought for you. 

Your stats really improved - infact they doubled and went up to 20% survival. Here's hoping they do the same next time and double again.

For our third go we found a really good clinic and spent 4 months before our ICSI changing our lifestyle My DH was advised by a specialist to give up marathon running, caffeine, alcohol follow a nutrition plan and take lots of supplements. He also took Chinese herbs and went to acupuncture once a week. On EC day after he had contributed his bit he went and ate french pastries and drank lots of strong coffee - then had the shakes for a few hours from the caffeine hit - so silly. (We got a 43% survival rate - beforehand we were at a clinic that didn't do day 5 transfers) 

I've heard that the procedures and skill of the embryologists play a vital role

good luck - let it be third time lucky for you!!

love Tyler


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## Plink (Mar 24, 2004)

Hello Bigears

On the question of why your embies aren't surviving to day 5, I think that there are certain times when the embryos are 'more likely' to 'arrest' development. I think day 2, is one and then ;ater (hence the idea of blast transfers which separates the stronger one.
But as every case is different and it takes the integrity of the sperm AND egg to form a good embryo, it might e worth quizzing the embryologist a bit more.
It could be still 'bad luck' with you only having done 2 cyces. ('normal fertilisation is 50-70%) but I'm not sure what normal drop=off rate is...
It is up to the team to enlighten you a bit more, so I would ask the embryologist.
In terms of take-home baby rate apparently PGD doesnt increase the rate (I'm told) but it could throw up more information to enhance your chances.

Best of luck next time
The embryology archive I'm sure has threads about 'arrest' in embryos ( I think this is the term used)

Plink x


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## Richmar (Dec 17, 2005)

Hi I am  new to the site and am just trying to find my way around it! Had previously 3 failed IUI attempts and 2 IVF, until they decided that ICSI was the only hope for us. We are being treated by Mr David Walker at the Bath Assisted Conception Clinic - not sure if anyone has heard of him or the clinic and has any feedback! 

Last ICSI cycle 2 grade 1 embryos transferred but failed to implant, which is sickening. You get to the stage where you can never see it working, but we are trying to be positive. Have been having acupuncuture for 2 months to see if that assists at all, gone decaf and trying to eat healthier plus taking all the recommended supplements. I am 40 in February and Mr Walker is encouraging us to try again, which is good as he says he would advise us against us if he thought our chances were too low, but we are responding very well to treatment, although if they do not implant makes no difference really! He has suggested taking aspirin during the next 2 week wait, and timing the transfer after my birthday so that they can legally transfer 3 embryos. Would be very interested to hear views or experiences from anyone?


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