# This should be a safe place



## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi 

Apologies in advance, and Emcee, as moderator I will understand if you wish to remove this post, but I really need to say this.

I have got myself really upset about the replies that Bandicoot had in her 'smug parent' post.. even to the point of it making me cry.  
I feel really upset about the replies she had, and feel strongly that as someone in the 'Moving On' thread you should feel able to express your feelings of pain and hurt here, which is supposed to be one of our safest places, without fear of offending people elsewhere on the site.

While I understand that everyone that posted on here from other parts of the site did so with the best of intentions, I was quite upset to log in to offer support, only to be confronted myself with success stories! Bandicoot posted here because when she went to the clinic it hurt to be reminded of her loss by seeing others successes. Surely the last thing someone in that situation needs is replies from several FF members from elsewhere on the site who have all had IVF successes. I use the Moving On Board to be with people who truly understand about the unique pain of finally losing that hope, and facing a new future, a new me. One without my own child. 

I am so sorry everyone for getting so upset about this but once tx is over for good this is such a diffiuclt place to be in. It can be so painful scrolling past other parts of the site to get here, as that is another reminder that tx is over, has failed....once I get here though it always feels a safe haven from every other reminder. I know everyone who posted who has had a success has been through no end of heartache, some of which I can never understand, but I really need those people to respect that here in the moving on section we have our own heartache of a very unique kind. 

I am not saying that people from other parts of the site shouldn't post here, and i know none of us would wish a negative outcome on our fellow IF girls, after all they have been through hell to get their precious positive results, but I feel quite strongly that once tx has been finally ended once and for all, this takes us to a new place of pain that can only be understood by others who know what it is like to have the door of hope closed finally. 

For me, the pain and confusion that brought me to the 'moving on thread' was completely unique and nothing like anything I experienced during any of my tx (negative results). Confronting other peoples successes is full of so much more pain now then when I was going through tx. Unless people have been here they cannot understand that.

I am not saying that successes shouldn't be celebrated, we are just battling every day to face the finality of a new and scary future where for many of us the hope has finally left us. 

I just want this place to remain a safe place to come to express our unique hurts, it has been invaluable to me to get through each day and finally am here one year on, a new brave milestone. I would hate other new additions to our thread not to be able to post their hurts for fear of offending members from elsewhere on FF who may not understand the unique situation of having to face that awful decision about whether to give up, or the pain of having done so.

I am sorry if i have uupset anyone but I am feeling quite upset about this.  
Ermey


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## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

I totally agree with you ermey.  I'm quite new to this board, and I have no idea why people from other areas of the forum even read these posts, let alone feel the need to comment.

The replies made me angry more than upset, but for all the same reasons you have mentioned. This should be a safe place.


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## Anthony Reid (Jan 1, 2002)

I am just leaving work, and haven't had time to digest this - but would like to mention that I have always been open to the concept of creating a separate site or sub site for those within the moving on board.


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

I think Tony might have a point.....

Ladies, for those of you struggling with this stuff today, I think that you are able to at least filter out photos you don't want to see; I've not done this myself, but try the technical boards....

Sisters in childlessness, you all inspire me with your spirit and your concern for each of us struggling down this very difficult road, I've never known solidarity like it.....

MM xxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

I am still in too much of a tizz to post anything constructive but would just like to add that I did not intend to put words in Bandicoots mouth (sorry hun).

Thank MM I always turn photos off but cannot seem to turn tickers off.


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## EML (Jul 25, 2005)

Dear Girls
Before going home from work today, I would just like to add my support to this topic. I too was (more than) a bit annoyed at some of the replies to the 'Smug Parent' post... the replies seemed to be coming from those very same 'smug parents' the post was referring to! I too have sat at my clinic while yet another 'success' walked through the door and it ripped my heart out! Yes, I am so pleased for these new mums. Yes, I can understand their joy (I felt overwhelmed when we got our BFP, only to have a m/c), but they have HAD their success, they have HAD their dream... we may NEVER experience this. I too have had the old 'miracles can happen' trotted out to me...but what miracle can a 43yr old have with a DH with hardly any sperm and who has given up IVF/ICSI because of the emotional and financial drain it caused...the immaculate conception
We have decided to try to adopt, but my heart still lies with you ladies, and to have these posts bombarded at us felt like a bit of an insult both to our intelligence and our feelings.
Sorry to go on, but I felt I had to write.
Love to all those who truly belong in this place.
EML


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## pipkin (Jan 14, 2005)

Bandicoot hunny I hope you are reading these posts here .... I was so very upset with the replies from some of the other ladies to your cry for help.  This should never have happened - this is an 'open forum' but they do not 'belong' on this unique board and I logged off for the day after I saw the replies you received.  Like Ermey, I am sitting here in tears right now as it has really upset me.  You have been through so much sweetheart and to hear YOU apologise that you thought you might have offended other insensitive people broke my heart - you have EVERY right to feel upset that you had to face a new born being cooed over when you were supposed to be going to your clinic for councilling for your miscarriage (not a mother and baby group)   It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach .....

Emcee and girls perhaps we should seriously think about having a separate area where we can post without fear of more upset in our lives - God knows we don't need it do we.

Group Hug all round but special hug for my friend Bandicoot  

PS.  On a lighter note Bandicoot - funny you mentioned Andy and Lou - we are kindered spirits as that is where my name came from Andy PIPKIN (his surname   )


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## s.a.f. (May 20, 2005)

Ermey,

Well done for having the courage, eloquence and sense to say what most of us are feeling. As far as I am concerned I think it is totally and unbelievably selfish (and smug) for anyone who has a success story to post on this board. Of all people, they know the pain and hopelessness we all feel and is is totally callous for them to do this. I don't care what words of support they are offering - by their mere presence on the board, they cause pain to everyone of us as we read their posts. And for those people to actually highlight their success story as part of their response - words fail me !!

S.A.F.


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hello girls. Thanks for for your love and support, I'm glad others feel the same. I have been worrying about my original post ever since.

I have to clarify that I never meant to be unfriendly to well-meaning people who drop in occasionally, only that we would really appreciate bucket-loads of sensitivity and tact if they do!

also to put my post in context - I have had a terrrible couple of weeks and feeling more than usally fragile....lost a much loved Great Aunty, had to have my beloved rodent fur-baby put to sleep (still can't get used to that), and am writing 2 dissertations. On top of that I stupidly looked at photos of my cousin's newborn baby today.

I guess when i posted I was a woman on the edge!

I still feel the essence of what I said though.

love to all


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## pipkin (Jan 14, 2005)

You were totally justified in what you said Ermey - no need to explain, anyone with an ounce of common sense will understand that it was not directed at all 'visitors' but just the insensitive ones who we can all do without!!  Anyway, you actually just said what we were all thinking  

Sorry to hear about your aunty and your much loved little chap Ermey - sounds like you have been through it this week so no wonder you are on the edge.  

Hope there is some sunshine for us all tomorrow ..
Pipkin xx


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Lovely ladies

I can only apologise for not getting here sooner to see all of this - I have literally been home half an hour since I went to work this morning at 8am.

I have locked the thread where Bandicoot spoke about her experiences in her clinic because I could see the upset it had caused, and I had also been contacted away from the board about it. 

Sending massive hugs to all of you who have been affected by this - and no Ermey love, there is no way I'm going to remove your post - you have been affected by what has taken place here today and we're here for you to explore your feelings, its what we 'do' best here in my humble opinion.

Sending you all much love and gentle hugs,
Emcee xxxxxxxx


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## jomac (Oct 27, 2006)

Oh Ermey I'm sorry about the loss f your great Aunt and your we fur baby. Animals leave their footprints on your heart.
I hope you're feeling better Bandicoot. I hope the counselling helpred. Dealing with a miscarriage is so so hard. I also have been confronted by babies at the IF clinic and I think staff should be more sensitive. The fertility specialsit I saw also had pictures of his family all over his walls which I thought was also very insensitive as well.
It's probably motivating for the staff to see the babies and makes them feel it's a worthwhile job but they should do it outside normal appointment hrs. ?maybe there should be a separate waiting room for counselling?
Maybe  when you're feeling ready Bandoicoot you could bring it up? It may be years away but it's important info for them to know.

Lots love and hugs across the Tasman

Joanne


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## astrid (Feb 10, 2003)

Dear Ermey
All i can say i admire you integrity and honesty to be able to post something that most of us have thought about on a number of occassions. I take my hat off to you and i can see that everyone on here follows your very thoughts and words...
Tony has offered to separate this thread for fear of this happening. However most of the girls felt comfortable about staying on the website....they didn't want to feel segrated from everyone else.
I think what you said Ermey is valid and that this thread needs to be highlighted, that it is another step from IF and a whole different ball game. One that many people do not fortunately have to experience ever, thankgoodness because its devastating. Also for those who may have got there in the end, does not qualify you to understand where we are all coming from?
I do not post about M/C because i have never been there, i can offer empathy but i also know when to step back. Its the same as anything in life, if you do not know then keep quiet.
Well done Ermey for your bravery...
love astridx


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## Bandicoot (Mar 8, 2007)

Dearest Ermey, I'm so sorry for the awful couple of weeks you have had. Two bereavements in as many weeks is just terrible and I send you my love and a gentle hug.

You didn't put words in my mouth, dear Ermey, far from it: you wrote beautfully and bravely and eloquently about how we all feel on this board and I have been in tears this morning seeing the support from all of you over what happened yesterday. But I still feel the need to say the following because I too have been worrying ever since I did that first post and saw what some of the 'visitors' were saying, and I felt so churned up that poor Emcee had to lock it off: I'm truly sorry, all of you, that what I unwittingly started yesterday ended up causing so much upset and pain here, the very place that's meant to be safe and nurturing and special to us. I feel very protective of everyone on this board, you have shown me such friendship and support at a time when it has been so badly needed, and the absolute last thing I wanted to do was cause distress to any of you, however unintentional. I am also pretty new here and the last thing I want to do is be 'the controvertial one' who stirs up a hornets nest. I know I didn't invite some of those comments but I still wish I'd never opened my mouth!   In the end I went offline as I felt every time I added a new post it was just making it worse. 

I hope you don't feel the need to make any changes to this board as a result of anything I started, or, at least, if any changes are to be made, that it is only with the full support and blessing of all those on the Moving On board (and ONLY them!).

As a rough conclusion to all this before I promise to shut up about it, you might just like to know that as a result of everything that happened yesterday I feel even more strongly that I need to raise this with my clinic. I discussed it with my DH this morning after a pretty sleepless night and we both feel it really can't be that hard to arrange for the 'haves' and 'have nots' to be given different visiting times or a seperate waiting room, like Joanne suggested and Woking appear to have implemented. Treatment may well be over for me, but I'd still like to raise this on behalf of other women in the future.

I have also concluded that for my own sanity, counselling for stopping would be better outside of the whole IVF clinic environment from now on! 

Oh, and as a wry final observation, get this: I have actually been told by one specialist that 'having children isn't everything'... while he sat as his desk that was plastered with picures of his own kids!!! AGGGGGHHHH!

My love and hugs to all the very special people on this, our board. I realise even more today what a privilege is it to be able to post here, and one that I promise not to abuse or take for granted.

Love B xxxx


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## Bandicoot (Mar 8, 2007)

Sorry everyone, I'm doing that overnight stalking thing again... just a quickie to MM to say I tried to pm you but your inbox is full!  

B xxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Hi hun, have pm'd you - inbox now has space....MM xxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Dear Ladies, 

Last night I went to my local, for a beer festival. There was great live music with this guy called Nick the Fish, who played loads of my favourite songs on acoustic guitar. I laughed with my chums Tara and Hannah, laughed harder as I watched my luvly hubby get hammered. And all the time I had two streams of thought playing themselves out underneath it all....

1) This time last year I was pregnant. I didn't know it (found out on 31/03/06) but I was in the pub on the same night listening to the same music, full of hope and fear in equal measure. 
2) I wanted to know how you all were.... Yesterday was a peculiar kind of madness that I've never witnessed here before, and for me, only confirmed that with all of you is where I belong. I felt bad for not being at my pc to watch things get fixed and offer my support. 

Meredith held a follow up day to the January workshop about a month ago, and during the day we did a brilliant exercise connected to the anger we feel in relation to our childlessness. At that time I was feeling particularly peeved with close friends and relatives displaying unfathomable levels of insensitivity. I made a picture; it was a simple white arrow with the words WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO GET WHAT THIS IS LIKE? fitted inside the body of the arrow. Yesterday I wanted to scan it in and put it up as a post in response to what was happening here.

It is a very hard truth to face that no-one else gets this (or at least very few people who haven't been in our shoes, in my experience) BUT at least we have all found each other. For all my pain, I'm so glad I know each and everyone of you....

Thank you....

MM xxxx


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

"Yesterday was a peculiar kind of madness"  Beautifully putt MM, I couldn't agree more and I just wanted to add my support for anyone who got hurt. Don't be put off, this really is a safe place.

flipper


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## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

I really admire you, Ermey, for starting this thread.  I was here when it all "kicked off" yesterday, and I was really angry about it. I posted on the original thread, but I did wonder if I was doing the right thing, and that maybe, as a newbie, there was something I'd missed and that it was normal for heavily pregnant women to come to this board, post pictures of their swollen bellies, tell us they know how we feel and explain to us that we might still get pg. 

It's brilliant to see how everyone pulled together to support one another yesterday, and Bandicoot, I really really don't want you to feel like you shouldn't have posted, or that you should avoid saying things that might be controvertial or inappropriate.  I'm having a lot of trouble formulating what I want to say here, I keep typing things and deleting them, and I'm in danger of this turning into a full on rant if I don't stop soon! Anyway.  The bottom line is that the people who caused the trouble yesterday did so in the full knowledge of what they were doing. Many even started by saying "I shouldn't be posting here, but..."


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## Bandicoot (Mar 8, 2007)

Oh MM, my heart just aches for you. Whilst I'm so glad you were surrounded by good friends and your lovely DH last night, having a wonderful time in their company, it must have been tinged with such sadness at what could have been... it just truly sucks. 

I think it is surely a measure of the person you are that you were thinking of your friends here whilst processing the fact that it is a year on since you were pregnant. 

Your 'arrow' drawing is very poignant, MM. Sadly, it seems there are very few people who get how this feels. But as you say, it makes the people who come together here and look out for each other all the more precious.

You are an inspiration to me, as I'm sure you are to everyone else here. 

Emmag, I felt just like you yesterday, being a newbie: I didn't know if it was normal or not to see the types of posts and pics that were coming through and in the end I felt like such a deer in headlights I just went offline and hid. And I also have done a lot of typing and deleting! You do make me smile.

Feeling safe to come out again now...  

B xxxx


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## ruby k (Jun 2, 2004)

Hi ermey and everyone
I have just been catching up with everything that happened over the last couple of days, and I'm so sorry I have come late to this thread. I really hope you are all OK, because it seems such a vulnerable time for some of us at the moment...

I think there have been some very insightful and pertinent comments made here. 

The main thing I feel is that I really want those who post here to feel 'safe', and (stupid though this sounds) - it never even ocourred (sp?) to me that those who had been successful would be on this thread, reading these posts, and feeling the need to comment. So I was really surprised to see it to be honest.. I think it's so important that we all do feel safe here - because deciding to stop tx after years of ttc is the most difficult and wobbly thing in the world (I can only speak for  myself obviously, but it's certainly been the most difficult thing in my life so far...) 

During the time I have been visiting this site, I have been on quite a few of the boards, and the one thing they ALL have in common, is the sense of isolation, fear and sheer awfulness of coping with other peoples' pregnancies - whether they be friends, sisters, colleagues - whoever - and that unique battle within oneself of being happy for them, but soooo upset for yourself. ....and I can;t help feeling that it is inappropriate to say, 'just keep trying, miracles do happen'...because I spend a lot of my days quashing those kinds of thoughts..

However, if any of the 'success stories' are still reading - I genuinely AM glad for you that you have been successful after years of ttc hell..... 

As I say, I can only say how I personally feel - but a big part of 'moving on' for me is accepting that there will never be a miracle - (I just cannot hear it) and that, fundamentally, I want to find happiness in my life as a whole and with dh.


sending everyone a big   

xxx


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## s.a.f. (May 20, 2005)

Ermey,

just want to mention.......in your post at the start of this thread you said 

"It can be so painful scrolling past other parts of the site to get here, as that is another reminder that tx is over, has failed...."

Can I suggest that you set up this board (ie the moving on board) as a "Favourite" and then use it to take you directly to this board when you log in. It will display this board directly, and when you enter your user name and password, it brings you directly back to this board.

This is what I do and thus I never have to be faced with scrolling past all the other boards which I find too upsetting).

If you then want to go into your personal messages site, when you have finished simply page back to this board or alternatively hit your "favourite" again.

Hope you don't think I'm being patronising (perhaps you already knew this and were speaking figuratively) but I just thought it worth pointing out for people who may not have thought of it...........


as per my previous post, I think it's wonderful that you started this thread .......

S.A.F.


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Hi ladies

Its true that IF is a very isolating and devastating experience. This board is one small part of a big website dedicated to infertility and its various treatment proceedures though sometimes I wonder what happens to all of those whose treatments aren't successful because in real life I've known many who haven't gone on to have kids.

One of the ladies who posted (Charlie's mum) sent me a lovely PM message apologising if she caused any hurt to anyone, and she wanted me to convey this to you all - I can honestly say reading what she wrote I didn't think there was anything in there that would cause offence to anyone here. She didn't want to post this as she is sensitive to causing more upset, where none is intended on her behalf. She used to be a regular user of this board before life moved on in a different way for her.

Its not lost on me though that we do get a lot of hits on this board, and that there are many people out there who have been through the pain many of us are going through now, but despite everything they are now pregnant or they have kids - its not to say that none of them will ever forget though. Equally though to coin the same phrase its not lost on me for those of you who feel particularly raw or vulernable to see peoples' pictures or tickers when you don't expect to see it on this board, or witness the outpourings on here like what happened the other day when there is much more certainty that you will never become a biological parent in your own right - I am living this life too alongside you ladies, and am not immune to the pain these things can conjure up, although to a degree I have 'moved on' in many ways...

But, do you know the good thing about it all? That we are all able to discuss what has happened, and hopefully this can help some of us heal a little bit more as we all draw on our own experiences and emotions. I know through my own life soup that IF is something you never really get over, but with the love and support I feel from you lovely lot here it makes that journey a whole lot more bearable along the way. I sense a solidarity here that none of us would probably feel in the 'outside' world where hurty things can happen but we have no-one with whom to share it with who is singing from the same songsheet if that makes sense?

Thinking of you all ladies, and sending my love - you are all never far from my thoughts, especially at this moment in time.
Emcee x


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## s.a.f. (May 20, 2005)

While we are on the subject of "safe places", I just want to mention the "More to Life" organisation which I belong to which is exclusively for the involuntarily childless. When the quarterly magazine drops through my letter box I know it is a "safe" item to read where I will be able to read the thoughts and experiences of only those who are at the end of the road. Any event I might attend will be "safe" and any person I contact from it will be "safe". Just wanted to make sure you are all aware of its existence .........

S.A.F.


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## bell (May 17, 2005)

Hi Ladies

OMG l am absolutely shocked, My heart is now in my stomach, l have had to stop reading and also looking at the thread, with all the photos as just brought every single memory back for me and i can not discribe to you how i am feeling, xmas to me feels like yesterday and seeing all those photos have just well stunned me,ladies i understand completely how you feel as l am feeling it now, l must go as l feel crap need to wipe my eyes, l omg i must 

Sorry ladies for any spelling mistakes, speak soon, 

bell xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## NixNoo (Aug 19, 2005)

I don't feel there's much I can add to this other than my solidarity & support.

Love to you all

Nix
x


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hello again 

I have been thinking about this since it happened on Friday and had so many muddled thoughts and emotions I didn't know where to begin. Still not sure I know but will have a go.

Firstly, Emcee, thank you for passing on Charlies Mum's apology...it is very much appreciated and I recognise that she or anyone else never intended to hurt us. it is really nice of her to mke the effort to try and mend things a little.

Firstly....I have been wondering about my own reaction to the ladies posts, as it really went surprisingly and painfully deep, and am aware that the strength of the upset may have been a real surprise to those visitors who posted an unintentionally upset us. i think the strength of feeling for me comes from many places. I am not putting this here to point accusing fingers at the successful ladies as I realise they never intended to cause such pain to us, but I think its important we can express our confusion.

Firstly, its because there is no way a miracle is going to happen for me,,,DH has no sperm ...(well ok, single figures found after much painful operating) and my eggs are terrible quality, in 4 IVFs we only achieved fertilization once. I thought I was beginning to accept this,  but I guess the thought of 'miracle stories' opened up some pain and anger still lurking around.

Also, I felt as though people outside of here were making assumptions or judgements about a) the reasons people stop having tx  and   b) the ways in which we respond emotionally to that decision . I stopped having tx because we had to...the doctors couldn't do any more, and we felt Dh and I couldn't do anymore without compromising our mental and physical health. For us, it was more 'positive'   to admit to ourselves what couldn't happen, then to cling to the smallest shred of impossible hope. 
Also, lets not forget that some people in this board may have never had tx, because they felt it wasn't right for thm, or because they couldn't. I can only try and imagine the unique feelings they must have.

Also the way that our journeys seemed to be misunderstood reminded me only too well of all the misunderstandings with those I love in my family and friends...it reinforced to me how totally alone I feel at times. In contrast I have been so deeply touched by the way everyone here rallied around and supported each other. The things people have said on here have far exceeded the depth of understanding tha my family are able to achieve despite their best efforts.

At the same time I was taken aback myself by how upset I was. It has made me question whether using the boards is always helpful for me...whether I should living less inside my own head, and trying to make myself more part of the outside world and spend less time thinking about my situation.

MM, I was so moved by your posts, that you were thinking of girls here when you were tackling what was a very emotional anniversary for you.  

Jq - I was moved deeply by your posts about your DH in the other thread, especially him lighting candles. he is clearly a very special man.

SAF - thanks for the tip about saving to favourites....can't believe I didn't think of that before! 

Tony suggested a seperate site or a sub-site...perhaps we should consider this

Finally, I was just wondering what our lovely Jq thinks of all that has happened. Jq I really value your opinion as someone who truly knows why we feel the way we do, but also has more distance of time between yourself and your initial IF experiences. hope I'm not being insensitive


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hello dear friends,

I am posting with tears in my eyes, please bear with me if I am not as articulate as I would like to be.

Dear Ermey and Bandicoot. There have been a lot of posts here since you started your threads, I hope I have managed to do justice to reading all that has been said. I think you have both felt the need to apologise or explain yourselves. Please don't! This certianly should be a safe thread where we can express the difficult emotions that come from having to move on.

I am very sorry that I was not around to offer what little support I can, I was away in Spain at the weekend and will post about that later. I want to say that I never felt alone, as I so often have at family functions which have always highlighted my childlessness and now grandchildlessness. The reason? The wonderful messages of support I had on this board and especially MM being such a great text buddy throughout. I am totally humbled, dearest MM, to now discover what a difficult weekend it was for you too. I will pm you seperately my dear friend. I also had another person offer to be a text buddy, but no longer had her number. I was maybe silly not to ask for it again, but did not want to impose. But while I was away I knew you were there for me too, and that was a great support. (You know who you are!)

I am telling this to all as I think the support I recieved illustrates the great community we have created here, which is something we all cherish. People who have found understanding here share and care with one another.

My heart goes out to Emcee who has done so well as moderator in managing this. My darling, you have been:

> Caring,Warm
>Clever, Brilliant
> A great friend to everyone.

Hats off to you Emcee!

I am going to try and respond to Ermey's very flattering request that I share my perspective. Ermey, not at all insensitive of you, it actually feels good to be appreciated and to have a chance to give back some of the support I have benefited from, especially this weekend. Thank you Ermey. I often thought of you all, especially when MM texted to remind me that you were there for me. Thank you all.

The IF journey is tough. For a while all IF people walk the same journey.

The ttc path for those who do not get pg without medical intervention is very hard indeed. I guess everyone reading this has walked, or is walking, that path.

While we are actively ttc we walk with hope close by, believing (maybe against the odds, maybe knowing how poor the odds are) that it will all turn out well for us. That hope is something that keeps us going. The medics enourage us to hope. I remember being in the clinic knowing that my statistical chances were very low indeed and looking at the other patients and feeling sorry for them - I *was* going to be lucky, so stastistically they would not be. I know this was not mad or bad as I have read here on FF that other people feel the same!

I feel that the hardest part of the IF journey is the path that some of us have to take when all that hope has dissapeared. Supporting one another through this is what this board is all about.

We have to find new hopes for our future-selves. That is so very tough to do when we have spent years pursuing a hope that never materialised. It is so hard to find any new hope when we do not have a picture of what it means to be happy without a family of our own. Maybe it does not help us to move on when some people who have shared some if the earlier journyey won't let us go, when they ask us to hold onto a hope that has become false for us?

We do know that having children is not the be all and end all, but we have so few alternative dreams. Like women who become mothers, we are susceptble to the myth of "having it all" but we are excluded from the motherhood part of "having it all" even if we succeed with the rest of it!

It is a great idea that IF clinics show photos of happy people without children. Wish that they would!

It seems to me that what has happened this last weekend has been about the struggle for those who are giving up ttc to find new hope whilst faced with the understanable joy of those who were once our fellow travellers. It feels ok to me to know that they try and reach us.

I do feel that IF clinics and other places that "support" IF people need to be sensitive to our feelings. I was so upset and angry when my clinic achieved front page news in the press on some anniversary publishing a photo of the consultant surounded by "successsfull" patients with their babies. I wanted to send in an alternaive picture of all the "failures!"

Sweethearts, we can make a difference! I complained that it was cruel to make women facing IF/Miscariage to attend at the same time as easily/happily pg women for scans. I did this following several "failed pgs" culminating in an apointment where I could hear another woman and her partner through the curtain cooing at arms, legs, etc whilst I was told that my baby had died (DH having been told he could not come in.) By my next mc, appoinments for people in my position were held at different times from those who looked to be having a happy outcome, my DH was allowed in with me. And all the waiting room pics of devloping fetuses had gone. That made it a bit easier. So i do think it is worth complaining!

Knowing that this board is visited more than written on. I feel we need to stay here. I hope that the strength and care we have between us can help others to move on if/when they need to do so.

Charlies Mum has contactd me before and I feel sure her heart is with us on this board, Thank you CM!

Ermey, I feel I have let you down, this is not too clear. But I am tired now and have to go!

Love jq


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Jq

You could never let me down, your post is very honest and very moving. 

I have been wishing I never started this thread as I think I stirred up painful feelings for others, which weren't necessarily constructive, and I probably should have let sleeping dogs lie.
I am going to PM you as I feel it more appropriate.

Big hugs to everyone who has been so caring on this thread. 
My massive apologies if I have caused anyone any hurt by opening up old wounds or stirring up painful feelings. This place SHOULD be a safe place, I only hope I haven't made it feel more tempestuous and exposed by expressing my emotions thoughtlessly.

love you all.

P.S Emcee, Jq is so right, you have been fantastic


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

I can only speak for me, Ermey, but I would applaud you, not chastise you, for starting this thread; it is useful to examine and question our place, situation, needs and hopes every nw and then.....

MM xxx


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## irisheyes (Feb 2, 2005)

Getting to this very late as i was off sick. I think that we should all stick up for each other.Last year something simlar happened to me with regards a post and Astrid forewarned me in a pm for which i thank her.I was more annoyed than upset at that particular person as she didnt realise how lucky she was.


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Thank you jq and Ermey for your compliments. All I can say is I couldn't/wouldn't do it without you all here. I am very passionate about this place and very protective of 'my girls' here as it were - can't help it, its just the way I am, even before I became a mod! Remember - this place wouldn't be this place without you all!

I am sooooooo glad you posted Ermey, please don't think in posting you have brought up painful feelings for others. Its good to be able to articulate your thoughts to others, here we do it all the time, and the compassion and friendliness that I feel (and I'm sure everyone else feels too) is fab - if you can't tell it like it is here, then where can you hon?

I reckon a nice big meaty group hug is in order here ladies... so here goes...   and we'll have no more of any of our lovely board users feeling bad about what they have said, or whats been said... I am so proud of you all and the beautiful and eloquant contributions you have made, moreso because I know some of you have been coming from a place of deep hurt.

With love and telling you all you're fantastic!
Emcee xxx


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## Yamoona (Nov 7, 2005)

Sorry ladies have been away on holiday and have missed a lot. Had I been around I for sure would have posted my support earlier. Thinking of you all and holding you tight.

x


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi everyone. Have been struck by a virus since last post here. Ermey, I am glad you posted. I got your pm and tried to reply, but somehow lost it whilst Norton did a security check. Will try again soon, too late now though as it is 2.25! 

Love to all,

Jq xxx


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