# TV programme 31st Jan



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Today's Guardian ran an article about a fly on the wall documentary (following a SW doing her job), which is to be shown on BBC 2 on 31st Jan. I'm setting the Sky+ 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/14/social-worker-child-protection-mother


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## KG81 (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks x


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## LB125 (Mar 22, 2010)

Hi Dame Edna,

Thanks for the info, it looks really interesting.

In my new team I am more aware of this, as my new role meant I would be invited to child protection meetings on occasion, which became quite challenging for me personally as I completed our 'homestudy' and became approved recently.

LB


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## Dreams do come true (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks! x


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

wow looks powerful..be really interesting to see it from that perspective..

kj x


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

keep an eye on when this is on folks..online tvguide says its on on monday 30th...
kj x


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Yep, looks like the Guardian got it wrong or the BBC changed the timings after the article went to print ...

My Sky + says Monday 30th, BBC 2 at 9pm  (it's a series) ....

Thanks KJ.

It's not one to be missed


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## BooஐWantsBaby (May 21, 2008)

Thanks sky+ x


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

this is on TONIGHT people


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

oh glad i seen this ... gonna watch it now ... tissues at the ready ladies x


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Please God get that poor little mite out of there  

THREE years


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## MrsYG (Oct 30, 2007)

Dad has a laptop, a staffordshire type puppy, a mobile phone but his son has no bed Really OMG


And he is 3, and he doesn't brush his teeth... unbelievable!


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

Im transfixed (and not in a good way)...this is so sad...


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

i feel like my heart is going to break watching this..... its awful


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

Feeling very sad for the parents thought - they just don't get it.


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Heartbreaking


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Why has it taken so [email protected]@dy long to get the child out of there ...

The birth parents have learning difficulties, that's not their fault but sadly the result is that they are unable to parent him.  

Toby will be 5 by the time he is adopted (if he is?) and by then he will be a very very difficult child for anyone to manage  

I am choked watching this ...


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

DE .. i agree with you, its awful for the little one who is the innocent one in all this bless him


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

sure its an all too common scenario..have heard of much worse living conditions...
for me the most painful bit was watching the contact visit with Toby and his dad..no wonder the child didnt have any language, his dad didnt have the slightest clue what to say to him or how to play the simplest of games..when Toby was playing with the phone i was practically shouting 'this is where you play pretend telephones with him!!!'
I felt the mum almost had it in her, you could see she tried at times, but it just wasnt enough  
good programme..might give Joe Public something to think about...

kj x


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

The Mum   

She has shown such love for her kids in 'giving them up'   

So sad ...


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## Emma-is-a-mummy (Jan 16, 2012)

awww  missed this im off to watch it now on the iplayer and probably cry my eyes out. ive sky+ the new few weeks so wont miss it again

thanks


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## Mamaji (Jan 21, 2011)

Have sky + it will watch it tommorow ... sounds like it is interesting.  I work with children  who have parents who have learning disabilities so will be curious to see how things are portrayed.


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## skyblu (Sep 9, 2010)

Really couldn't understand why this child was allowed to live in those conditions for so long 
One chance to clean up your act, twice maybe, but third time get him out, I wouldn't let my dog live in those conditions.
As MrsYG said, laptop,mobile phone and a expensive dog and no bed for the boy, even when social services bought them one it stayed in the wrapping against the bedroom wall.
Less said about the dad the better, what a bl**dy idiot.

I must admit I was willing the mother to sort herself out and with the right support she just might of done it, but hats off to her for giving them up for a better life, I just hope Toby gets a family soon.
So so  sad.....


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## Dreams do come true (Jan 4, 2012)

An amazing programme!

I agree with you all, no wonder Toby was developmentally delayed - no stimulation from his biological father at all, poor little mite. It made me so angry watching him not interact/play with his son, seemed more interested in mhis mobile phone   You could see the improvement with Toby though, he seemed so happy when in foster care.

And as for the mother, what an amazing woman   She has done what must be the most wonderful and loving thing for her children, she has given them a better chance in life, that's love. I just hope she gets lots of support, it seemed to me that the 'father' was dragging her down...I wish her a lot of luck and happiness in the future.  

In the meantime, her beautiful baby girl has new family who will hopefully help her thrive and grow in to a beautiful confident woman. 

And as for Toby, I really really hope he finds a forever family soon, he deserves a good life and a new mum and dad. If this programme as taught me anything it is that an older child deserves a chance as much as a baby, I'm sure that he can bring alot of happiness in to someones life. It will be more challenging, but I am sure that the rewards will far out weigh that! Good luck Toby x x x   

AFM, looking forward to prep...this programme has really opened my mind up, and it really was amazing to see it from the childs and biological parents side of things. A very tearful but fantastic programme


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

this is where all the potential adopters who want 'the perfect baby' have to think again......

toby is like the majority of children waiting for a family - older than 3, boy, special needs of some kind, parents with special needs therefore uncertain development etc etc 

probably all the things potential adopters tick NO to - and yet can all come online (here and other sites) saying i hope he finds the right family soon

in some ways that makes me more cross than his birth parents situation


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## Dreams do come true (Jan 4, 2012)

ritzi said:


> this is where all the potential adopters who want 'the perfect baby' have to think again......
> 
> toby is like the majority of children waiting for a family - older than 3, boy, special needs of some kind, parents with special needs therefore uncertain development etc etc
> 
> ...


For me, I haven't been on prep yet, but initially our preference was a child under 3 - after this programme and the truth about adoption programme that was on a few weeks ago it's got me thinking, and hopefully preparation will help us understand what is right for us and what we can and cannot consider.

...it's down to every individual to decide what's right for them, for me it doesn't even come close to making me as cross as the birth parents situation. However what does make me cross is that it takes so long for a child to go through the process, more children would be placed younger, and would a better chance of a forever family if the government pull there finger out and sorted out the ridicuously long winded process of the child becoming available for adoption, etc.


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## wynnster (Jun 6, 2003)

Rather critical Ritzi    It takes a certain someone to devote their lives to parenting a child with special needs and judging those that know they're not strong enough to do so is offensive.
Anyway, back to the programme - I did watch this programme and do feel for the parents, but more so I feel for the little boy and wonder how his life would have been had he been removed sooner.  Yes it is sad that the majority of the children in care are 'older than 3, boy, special needs' etc but I wonder what his story would have been if like his sister he was removed earlier.......
And yes I do hope he finds the 'right' family soon


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

Ritzi, I get what you are saying. Programmes like this, while may seem sad and shocking, are realistic - and yes Toby is like many many children awaiting to be adopted. Some people have a sort of 'not for us' attitude towards children like him which in some cases can be a bit false. But potential adopters HAVE to be honest about what they can handle, what they have the support for - if Toby were to be placed for adoption with a couple or person who then couldn't cope and the placement disrupted, that would be awful on top of everything else he has been through

I know a lot of people have this idea that children awaiting adoption are all perfect and healthy and 'normal' (hate that word but you know what I mean) and they aren't  - many of them. And yes lots of people, potential adopters and non-adopters need to realise that.....but I dont think that people should be forced to feel that they have to give children like Toby a home. I know that sounds harsh for Toby but he and others like him really need parents who want AND can manage his needs. After all, its because he had parents who couldnt manage his needs that he is waiting for adoption as it is. If people feel that they can't manage that then I dont think there is anything wrong in wishing him to find the right family.  

To be honest, its a very sensitive and controversial and complicated issue. I thought the programme was very good at opening eyes (mine included, even though are LOs come from similar story) and of course, stimulating discussion. I think the more programmes like this which bring issues such as this to the forefront of the public's thoughts, the better. This would help adopted children, adoptive parents and birth parents like Mike and Tiffany.  Much as we can all criticse them both, they just didn't get it and couldnt manage - which only left me thinking why not....and chances are its because they experienced similar poor parenting themselves when they were children that most likely did not meet their own needs fully. And so the cycle continues....


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

I really hope 'Joe Public' does watch this series and has its eyes opened to just how hard it actually is to remove a child as apposed to them thinking SWs just take the babies away for no reason.

As sad as it is, especially for children like Toby, this is a very common situation and I have read about far worse living conditions and abuse   

Having a laptop,dog etc etc instead of a bed for the child just shows their complete lack of being able to prioritise the child's needs, they really have no idea how to parent, probably as a result of very poor role models themselves sadly.  Not brushing teeth at the age of 3.....well did you see the state of BFs teeth?  BM came good in the end by making a very tough decision to relinquish her children, I hope they are able to find a forever family that can meet Toby's needs.

OT x


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## panorama (Feb 7, 2005)

Ritzi - I too think you are being quite critical, yes there are lots of children like Toby but in part that is because he was not removed earlier, he started to thrive as soon as he went into foster care. It's a real shame that could not have been done sooner for him like his sister. It's very unfair for kids like him to suffer from very inappropriate parenting and as he was the older one he probably did not come into the SS sphere till much later which is a real shame. But it does take the right people to be able to parent him and I am the first to admit I probably could not cope, although maybe I would, I don't know. But we should not have to feel guilty for wanting to adopt a more 'normal' child and I say that word very loosely as you never know what may lie ahead. Like someone else said it is best to find the right family so that the adoption does not break down and not everyone can deal with the challenges of developmental delay, learning difficulties etc. It does not mean we don't genuinely come into adoption wanting to give a child a good home.


I guess it is hard for SS to be able to deal with so many children not being parented correctly, I remember my social worker saying that children that come into adoption are the lucky ones, there is so much 'good enough' parenting where children are not given the best possible opportunity in life despite birth parents doing their best. And most often problems don't come to the forefront until children go to school which is sometimes too late for these children. Hopefully a better system can be put in place to try and catch children earlier.


My LO's half brother was a severely traumatised child and was only placed and adopted at 5. He is so vulnerable that he has not even been told he has a younger brother yet. Thankfully it led to our LO being caught early from birth, but so much more can be done when children are not allowed to suffer any abuse or neglect and we are happy we can provide the life he deserves. 


panorama


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## PEJ (Jun 6, 2011)

My Dh and I watched the program following from a 3 hour HS meeting with our SW. An overwhelming day  
We found it very sad, heartbreaking and difficult to watch. Frustrated that we had to spend 3 hours discussing and proving that we are a loving couple, with good finance control. a safe home, a loving neighbourhood and yet poor little Toby gas been left without a bed or toothbrush or stimulation and his parents (dad) had been given so many chances. 
I also felt very sad for the mother and have huge respect for her decisions and looking at her own childhood. 
We are still deciding on what age of child we are hoping to adopt and we sway between a baby - 4 years old. One minute we want and really would love to provide a home to a challenging child like Toby as the ability we have to help him thrive and develop would be amazing for him. We then sway towards a baby as this is something we would also like to experience. I am feeling so confused today.


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## sammij (Nov 9, 2005)

hello all

really made us think after watching last night.

(waiting to hear about prep course)

of course i'm not naive enough to think we would be handed a 'perfect child' - but has seriously made us questions if we could have a child say like Toby join our family.

Def food for thought............................

( & was it me -or was the trainee social worker - absolutley useless?? - we have met 2 & they have been lovely)


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

I agree with you Iman.

There is a reason why the 'tick box' is in place. It's not an ideal system but it is a starting point for discussions around what you can realistically manage.

Toby needs a family who will embrace his unique special needs, someone who wants to parent a very challenging child (which he is/will be  ). There are adopters out there who specifically want a challenge - one adopter spoke at our prep group. I couldn't do what she has done, taking on multiple harder to place children.

Some potential adopters would just not be cut out to parent Toby and they would therefore not be the right parents for him.

Toby will no doubt sadly wait much longer to be matched. However in my opinion it is better that he waits and finds the right family than is placed quickly with adopters who deep down will be disappointed with him and will therefore not give their all to him.

I don't think there are many adopters who come through the home study and believe they will be placed with the 'perfect' very young baby. However, they should all come through home study knowing what they are equipped to manage and know that at the end of the day they can say no if they feel it's not the right match.

X


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## PEJ (Jun 6, 2011)

Thank you Iman, I have found your posts really helpful  

It is hard looking at what goes on behind the doors with SS. Our SW is lovely but at the end of the day they are 'just' doing their job. We were supposed to go to panel in March and it has now been moved to end of May because our LA are moving offices. Frustrating that lives are hanging on to decisions being made by the SS completely out of our control.


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

if middle class, educated, supported people feel they could not manage toby - how on earth were his uneducated, probably special needs, poor, unsupported birth parents meant to manage? 

this is what makes me cross - so much criticism in the media and online today for 2 sad people who very much loved their child, but couldn't parent him. 

this is the reality of children coming through the system, very few are easy to place happy babies or toddlers - the statistics are appalling for 'hard to place' kids - ie children like toby. 

Yes I agree absolutely that people have to be realistic about what they can handle - but if we cannot handle these types of children, perhaps we should stop judging their birth parents who can't either


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## MrsYG (Oct 30, 2007)

Hmm, but had he not been neglected he would not be the challenge that he now is!!!! Poor boy!


Catch 22


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

sammij - she was a newly qualified SW from memory and imo a bit niave and wet behind the ears   The problem is they are scutinised so much for every single decision that they make and as a new SW she wouldnt be able to make any real decisions herself.

Unfortunately the majority of adopters come down this path after years of ttc and do want to adopt young children with as few issues as possible, I'm one of them.  When we started thinking about matching criteria we took into account not only what we could deal with but also what our families could deal with so that we knew we would have the support we needed and that if anything happened to us our children would stay in the family, not go back into care because others couldn't cope with the issues.  We looked at children with a lot more needs than ours but having parented our DS for over 3.5 years now I can honestly say I am glad we didn't take on more issues, we have enough to deal with and life can be pretty tough at times and as they get older who knows how hard its going to get.  People shouldn't be made to feel guilty for wanting younger children, every adopter is giving a child(ren) a chance to have a good life, to have a decent future and reach their potential, while having a family themselves and they should be proud of that.

OT x


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## Dreams do come true (Jan 4, 2012)

Old Timer said:


> Unfortunately the majority of adopters come down this path after years of ttc and do want to adopt young children with as few issues as possible, I'm one of them. When we started thinking about matching criteria we took into account not only what we could deal with but also what our families could deal with so that we knew we would have the support we needed and that if anything happened to us our children would stay in the family, not go back into care because others couldn't cope with the issues. We looked at children with a lot more needs than ours but having parented our DS for over 3.5 years now I can honestly say I am glad we didn't take on more issues, we have enough to deal with and life can be pretty tough at times and as they get older who knows how hard its going to get. People shouldn't be made to feel guilty for wanting younger children, every adopter is giving a child(ren) a chance to have a good life, to have a decent future and reach their potential, while having a family themselves and they should be proud of that.


Well said, and very true!


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## Ipswichbabe (May 17, 2005)

Think i missed it if it was last night..... what was the show called, parhaps i can get it on iplayer


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## GERTIE179 (Apr 20, 2005)

Hi all,
I was really intrigued to find out what folks thought of it. We found it very sad, heartbreaking and difficult to watch but also very insightful in some ways as it is exactly what our SW has been discussing about how/when to remove a child. And whilst I genuinely felt for the BPs as they did love their son, just didn't/couldn't deal with all his needs. Yes some is obvious like bed & dental hygiene - others like his non verbal communication and frustrated outbursts would be difficult for most to deal with let alone if we had limited/0 support.
Went to bed breaking my heart last night forthe BM who made a really really tough decision but felt it was the best she could do. I never want to be in her position and really wish her well. She doesn't sound like she was in a good place (obviously), nor had she had the greatest of starts herself.

And Ritzi, I did find some of your comments offensive and hope you see some of the viewpoints on here re why it is an individual choice. I would also point out that there are some fab FCs who do seek to love and raise children with differing needs and the choice of adopt or LTFC comes down to financial support. My hat goes off to these special people as they have skills and talent that I know I don't fully posses.

Love to all
Gx


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

ritzi said:


> Yes I agree absolutely that people have to be realistic about what they can handle - but if we cannot handle these types of children, perhaps we should stop judging their birth parents who can't either


again i say - i absolutely believe that people should be matched with the children they feel they can handle - for some it is the toby's of the world, for many others sadly it won't be. I have made no judgements towards people who consider and choose not to adopt a 'hard to place' child - it is my belief that nobody can make a person feel guilty - guilt is something that comes from within when a conscience is pricked. the judgements made about the birth parents however have been numerous  .

today i have read lots online (here and other websites) re this programme - lots and lots of prospective adopters commenting 'hope toby finds the right family soon' - but the reality is there are not many people coming forward for children like toby - this is why they are called 'hard to place' .

it makes me very sad that people including prospective adopters can watch this programme, agree that toby was in an awful situation and needs adoption, hope for the 'right family' for him, while sitting at home ticking the NO box or simply turn the telly over and forget about it.

this is why there is a crisis in adoption today - because everybody thinks somebody else should do it, somebody else should adopt toby and all the other children like him, somebody else should fill in the adoption application form. it is so wrong to feel cross about that?


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

ritzi said:


> this is why there is a crisis in adoption today - because everybody thinks somebody else should do it, somebody else should adopt toby and all the other children like him, somebody else should fill in the adoption application form. it is so wrong to feel cross about that?


Not at all. I totally agree and feel it too. But whilst its understandable and right (IMO) to be angry about it all, I don't know what point it serves either - because I can't see how the situation will ever really change. I dont mean that in a defeatist way or 'i dont care/its not my problem' type of way, its just its such a huge, deep, societal issue....I mean its very very complex as to why there are people who have children who can't cope with their needs and why there are children like Toby, and why there is a need for social services and why other people decide a child like Toby is not for them for whatever reason.....its just massive and it is, I suspect, just life.

That doesnt mean we cant be upset and angry about it or try to change things - we should and could. Its just that whilst its right to be cross/upset , I think we need to accept it also. Because I also think that the more we talk about things openly the better, so that for the average person out there who has no experience of adoption/child protection issues, it becomes more widely understood so that those who are able to manage needs like Toby's, are motivated and supported enough to come forward. And those around them can support them in that too.


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

To carry on from that, (Im typing and there's still so much to say on this!), I think people's attitudes do need to change. This is what I mean about Joe Public and their knowledge and understanding of adoption/social services. I have found, since our LOs were placed, that people try to dismiss the issues I mention about our LOs and pass them off as 'normal' and say things like 'thats what all children do'.......its like people are scared to admit that children CAN be damaged by being in care away from BPs, whatever led them to be there in the first place, and then the subsequent move into adoption. I think its siomething to do with putting their heads in the sand that chidren like this exist - children like Toby included. I guess for a lot of people its easier to not think about these things, like you say.....its strange the psychological responses discusing things like child trauma brings out in people....its a tough subject......Anyway I am digressing now and in danger of becoming an amateur psychotherapist/sociologist or something or putting my foot in it...........but I think discussion is healthy and the more is known about all of this by as many people as possible, the better. Surely that will help children like Toby and parents like Mike and Tiffany, who yes I agree, are in danger of being unfairly judged. 

Wooo complex issue!! Off to bed soon!


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## someday (Sep 11, 2008)

ritzi said:


> ritzi said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I agree absolutely that people have to be realistic about what they can handle - but if we cannot handle these types of children, perhaps we should stop judging their birth parents who can't either
> ...


i do think what you have been saying is somewhat unfair. Would you adopt Toby or the Tobies of this world?


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## ritzi (Feb 18, 2006)

i have 2 " toby's " now aged 4 and 6


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## Iman (Oct 11, 2007)

I wish they had the ability to `like` posts on this board like they do on ******** etc. Hats off to you ritzi


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## Daizy (Feb 25, 2011)

ritzi said:


> this is why there is a crisis in adoption today - because everybody thinks somebody else should do it, somebody else should adopt toby and all the other children like him, somebody else should fill in the adoption application form. it is so wrong to feel cross about that?


There is a crisis because children are left too long in the care of their birth parents. In spite of it being the core reason for kids' lives being destroyed when they've barely begun, I feel I have to remain wary of publicly saying that too much respect is afforded to the rights of birth parents.

Toby was neglected, and it took almost 4 years for someone to stop it. It's likely his entire life will now be plagued by the lack of early intervention, and by the inevitable ensuing lack of decisiveness.

Our (adopted) daughter had been taken into care at birth, the plan from the outset was adoption - still though she was 16 months old before she was placed with us (and this was because her birth Mother refused to give consent. She was completely unresponsive to SW's early efforts to reintroduce her child to her, and said she'd lodge no objection to any stage of the planning - but still she refused to sign her consent). Our daughter never spent a day in her Mothers care, but still she was almost 2 before we were given parental rights for her.


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

Ritzi, I know of some of the struggles you and your boys have been through and I am glad they have you to fight for them.  
IMO, boards such as AUK do not help the cause of children like Toby.  Most prospective adopters get pointed in that direction and I know of a fair number that have walked away from adoption as a result of reading the posts on there    I stopped reading that board while going through HS the first time round because if I had believed ALL adoptions were like that I wouldn't have the family I have now.  I know its a support board but 5 years ago it was even more negative than it is now and people just don't post good news very often as they get shot down.
When looking at matching criteria we only said no to a couple of things, the rest was will discuss or yes.  The first cpr we looked at was heartbreaking, the LO had so many issues, all of which we had said yes or maybe to, but when put together were just far too many for us to feel confident in being able to parent and meet the needs of.  DS's cpr was very negative, big questions over ability to attach and behaviour problems and considered a very challenging child, delayed in speech and a few other things.  He was relinquished at 16 months but it still took 10 months for us to meet him     He could easily have been a Toby had he stayed with the BF longer and unfortunately for him the FC didn't do much to help him.  2nd time round you have a different set of priorities, an existing child to think of and the impact on them.
There are always going to be children that are classed as hard to place but overall the system needs shaking up, SWs need more power and to be considered professional, BPs should be given less chances or over a shorter time scale, more court time needs to be available and more PAS.  Each time a judge delays a court order it is damaging the children involved.  The majority of the cases, anyone with a brain cell knows the situation won't change, the children won't be put first no matter how much time, help or warning the BPs get through no fault of their own some of the time.  Its not always a case of them wanting to or not wanting to change but more the fact they can't because they don't know any different, what we see at poor parenting they see as 'normal', its how they were parented and their parents before that.  Children need to be put first, not the BPs.
When you adopt you take on huge uncertainties even with an 'easy' child, no one knows what the future will hold and I can think of a few people who had 'easy to place babies' that have turned out to have big behaviour issues to contend with as the child has reached school age.  Adopting isn't 'easy' for anyone, at some point there will be issues that arise that will be very difficult to deal with and we get it right or we may get it wrong, we to are human and make mistakes but have been lucky enough to be brought up by 'good enough' parents to know how to be 'good enough' ourselves.  We all face our own challenges and what some find a challenge others wont and vice versa, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same
Will be watching with interest next week, tissues at the ready!   
OT x


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

Tbh i don't think the child was left too long.  At the beginning of the program the senior social worker was talking about the possibility of removing the child but reminded the other s/w that the the case had only been known to the s/w teem for 2 weeks!  So even though i don't know how long it took for sure, certainly got the impression that it wasn't too long.  I guess it had to be about a year?, mmmm maybe it was a while.


I do think its fair to give the birth parents every opotunity to "make good".  I am not saying that for the benefit of the parents but for the child.  As if that child is removed and then its later found that there was either not enough evidence or that the process of helping the parents was not correctly completed, then the child could end up going back, that would be totally terrible for the child.  I worked in a children's home for 6 years the children had behaviour issues and 90% of them came from a very difficult back ground.  But every opertunity was made to try and keep the child in the family regardless.


I am not quite at the end of my fertility journey but regardless know that adoption is a real possibility in the future, even if we do succeed with having one child through treatment, i would like to adopt number 2.  Or if we are not successful through treatment then we are still very interested.  But i have to be honest, i have worked in care for over 10 years, i have worked with children with behaviour problems and adults with learning dif, but i am still unsure and worried at what kind of child i would be happy to adopt! And no i am not looking for the perfect baby, but i wander what on going support would be out there for my child, me and my dh if we adopted a hard to place child.  I suspect, very little! I think there is a much bigger picture here.


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## fuzzywuzzy (Sep 3, 2009)

The family was known to SS for longer than 2 weeks (you must have misheard that), what the manager was saying was that they have to be able to evidence that they have given the bp's every opportunity to change.  Otherwise they take the case to court and the judge can rule that there's lack of evidence and the bp's need to be given longer....which is detrimental to the child/ren.  Toby had lived there all his life and only came to the attention of the authorities due to the paediatrician reporting bruises, so, too long in those conditions.  How many other children are there living this way who go unnoticed and under the radar?  Like someone said, the children who are adopted are, in some ways, the lucky ones and break the cycle of neglect.  
It was clear that his parents were incapable of parenting as they just weren't able to put his needs first and protect him.  It makes you wonder how much (or how little) they even spoke to him, based on the contact session that was shown.  What is wrong is that the process seems to be all about giving the bp's chance after chance, the system needs to put children's needs first.  I mean, if a home is that bad and the parents are told to get it sorted and, with help and adivce, it gets worse and worse, the sw's can't just keep going back and rewarning them, it's just not fair on the child/ren.


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

FuZywuzzy 

Yer maybe heard it wrong, was struggling to hear it at all over my own crying, it was very very sad.


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

coweyes, with the greatest of respect, I think if you ever go down the adoption route and have to read the heartbreaking reports that we have to read while searching for the right match you will have different ideas about how many chances the birth family should be given.  We have to try and help these children to heal and face a lot of challenges along the way as a result of the birth parents having so many chances to mess up and let the child down.
The children have to be put first and currently the system doesn't do that   
OT


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

Old timer.  I have read lots and lots of reports of child abuse as I used to work as a dep manager in a specialised children's home, for such children. I am not sticking up for the parents that is not what I meant but I do think that it has to be proven that they can not correctly parent not presumed. Yes his parents. We're bxxxdy useless but anther set of patents may have worked with s/w to a safficiant level.  Xxxxxxxxx


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

When a hard to place child is up for adoption, is there any additional help given to the perspective parents or any on going help/therapy after the child has been adopted?  Sorry just wandered what happens in this kind of cases?


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## Old Timer (Jan 23, 2005)

SS know when BPs are going to work with them or not in the majority of cases but they still have to go through the process to be able to tick the boxes that say BPs have been given X, Y & Z and failed.  Generational neglect is very hard to break.
My DD will see how many times her BPs were given chances and how many times they failed and let her down, thats a lot for her to get her head round when she is older    but reality is they were never going to be able to succeed.
There is a guideline of 40 weeks from a child entering the care system to getting a PO if adoption is the plan.  The reality has been over 57 weeks for a very long time due to lack of SWs, lack of family court time and judges and everyone being too scared to make a decision.  Personally I couldn't walk away from a child that I know is living in a filthy pit with dog poo on the floor and no bed and Toby's situation was a 'mild' case compared to some of the reports I've read. 
              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harder to place children used to come with adoption allowances but generally with all the cuts, any adoption allowance is now means tested in most LAs.  The prep training, HS etc is the same regardless of the issues you chose to consider.  Any support would need writing into a support plan before intros start but even then it doesn't mean the LA will pay for anything and after the AO it is harder to get any support from the placing LA.  Post Adoption Support varies hugely throughout the country, its all a bit of a post code lottery.


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

everyone ready for part 2 tonight...

kj x


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## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

I'm ready KJ  

This next episode will no doubt raise more debate ...  

Tissues at the ready  
X


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## Emma-is-a-mummy (Jan 16, 2012)

im ready 

ive got tissues at the ready too. xx


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## popsi (Oct 11, 2007)

yep all ready.... tissues by the bucket load ready again ...


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

There was an article - think its in Bella - from the SW in question.  She was heartbroken.


So sad   


Mini xx


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## juju2408 (Jan 2, 2012)

So so sad   I thought she was gonna make it


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

what? the SW sold her story to Bella mag   how unprofessional   jeez hope my sw doesnt go running off spilling the beans on my family to all and sundry  

oh my, heartbreaking but tbh i wasnt shocked, Marva didnt exactly come across as having a truly fighting spirit..i think she just had a bit of hope that she might manage it and just said all the right things to get a chance, which she did, but she just couldnt see it through    
just another couple of terribly damaged individuals, of which there are far too many  

kj x


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## Betty-Boo (Oct 14, 2007)

The story in Bella was more of a supplement to tonights program.  Nothing more was divulged - it also advertised tonights program - highlighting adoption in the UK.  Was not written in a bad light - honest.  Was very moving.  Am sure she wouldn't have without permission - more than her jobs worth.


Mxx


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## K8O (Dec 21, 2009)

Very sad but unfortunately a predictable outcome.  A hard thing to watch but even with all of the support some people are unable to change their lives for the better.  A tough case fo the sw, she truly thought she had a success story of sorts.


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