# Pregnancy loss support for 40+ or POF women without children



## CrazyHorse

Hi, all, I'm hoping to create a support thread for women who are 40+, or in premature ovarian failure / early menopause, and have experienced pregnancy loss while still ttc their first child. Basically, our situation means that we have difficult treatment decisions to make, fewer clinic choices, and a higher cost of treatment. We are also playing for higher stakes than people who already have children -- for us, each failed treatment brings us significantly closer to a permanently childless future. I miscarried on 4th January, and am finding that it's made much worse by (a) the knowledge that time is running out with my own eggs and (b) the fact that I may never have children. My diary is at http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=321545.0.

Due to endometriosis messing up my Fallopian tubes, my odds of a surprise natural BFP are basically nil. I also have to make the decision about whether to have a hysteroscopy to check whether my intramural fibroid is disturbing my endometrium. If it is, and I have it resected, that's more time gone before I can start another cycle; but if I don't, it lowers my chances of implementation and raises my odds of future miscarriages. I'm not keen to have an operative hysteroscopy, frankly, due to the infection and perforation risks; and, if I'm not willing to have any operative procedures done, there's no point in doing a hysteroscopy at all. It's a difficult decision.

I'm also looking at clinic options, as the clinic I was going to (IVF Scotland) is closing at the end of February. I'm strongly leaning towards going abroad, as treatment is cheaper and there seem to be more personalised treatment options available. Right now I'm leaning towards Czech Republic, as there's a lot of medical professionals there with good English language skills, and the clinics sound pretty well organised. Has anyone found any clinics to be especially good with low AMH patients? I'm never going to get more than a couple of eggs per cycle, and am very interested in trying a round of short protocol, lower-stim IVF with the explicit goal of harvesting only one or two high-quality eggs. Since DH and I have had 100% fertilisation so far, I think we need to focus on egg quality -- we will never get quantity.

The idea of starting treatment again is very, very hard for me. I've found treatment very distressing and difficult to cope with, and had a nasty bout of depression for about a month after our BFN in September. In some ways, I found that BFN harder to cope with than the miscarriage I just had. Has anyone else had a similar experience?


----------



## Molly99

Hello wonderful ladies.  Thank you so much for starting this thread Crazyhorse.  Sending you so much love and hugs, I was genuinely so sad to read your posts.  You must feel so overwhelmed right now, I remember that horrible dark place so well.

I couldn't agree more that the trail of devastation that the BFNs bring.  It's that hollow nothing feeling, they hurt every bit as much as my miscarriage.  I think that they even had a bigger impact on my mental health, at least with miscarriage there was something real and whole to lose.  BFNs just left emptiness.  

I have been in the deadzone of trying to move on since July last year but I have just a little inkling of hope now and I am absolutely overwhelmed at the possibility of starting again.  I too am leaning towards Czech Republic, thank you for your brilliant insight Gailgegirl.

I am also leaning towards DE, I want a biological child more than anything in the world but I don't feel like it's going to happen.  I thought that I was at the end of the road already, if I do this and it fails then I will be childless for the rest of my life, so perhaps I need to give myself the best possible chance.

Blimey, it's terrifying isn't it.  You're right Crazyhorse, the stakes are so high that it puts so much more pressure and stress into every little decision.  It would be fab to chitter with you all to help keep us sane  

Lots of love and   to you xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Gail, thanks for taking the time to type up all that detailed info on Gennet -- it's very helpful! Unfortunately, as I am in Scotland, I wouldn't be able to take advantage of their sister clinic, but it'll probably be the same situation with any other foreign clinic I use. I see that they do natural IVF, so clearly they are geared up to deal with older ladies / poor responders. As you know, I am so sorry for your recent loss -- 6 miscarriages is horribly unfair.  

Molly, I'm so very glad to hear you're likely to get another go. You deserve it, and you need it. If I were in your situation, I would probably be leaning towards donor eggs too, but it's a hard decision if that biological link means a lot to you (it does to me as well, so I get it).

The support I've gotten from other miscarriage survivors on this forum has been really helpful, and I'm sure I will be on here a lot in order to keep myself sane. I'm finding my mood very up and down, but still better than it was after the BFN. More intense moments of sadness, but not the anhedonia and the not caring about anything. I'm finding myself wanting to make plans, which is a very good sign for me, as depression really saps my ability to do so. This miscarriage has brought me grief, but not the sense of hopelessness that came from the BFN. If I have another miscarriage, that will be much tougher -- gailgegirl, that's why I feel so deeply for you. Recurrent miscarriage would make me feel more the way I did after the BFN, I think, except with grief piled on top.

The main problems I'm having right now are anxiety about future treatment (I hate dealing with unfamiliar locations and new doctors, plus I find the whole process, with the constant waiting and numerous opportunities for disappointment, to be horrendous) and worries about how I will come to grips with getting back to work. I suspect I'm going to feel like holing up at home with DH for about a month, and that's just not an option.


----------



## Guest

Thanks also CrazyHorse for starting this thread   I was also so sad about your news (and Gailgegirl & Molly), it's such a lot to go through   So, really helpful to have supportive people to talk to, help encourage & feel encouraged by!   I do feel it's a bit different if you've got no children yet at this age, as opposed to trying for another one late on. Thanks for the info sharing ladies  

So far I've been happy with my clinic, despite my MCs, i suppose it depends what the issues & additional fertility related factors are. I've heard really good things about the clinics abroad though and like the idea of combining a holiday! 

I'm worried about my eggs & my FET soon. The FET is from last year's nhs funded cycle so they wouldn't allow genetic screening of my one remaining embryo (and I'm still annoyed they only froze 1 after all 6 made it to day 5/6 blast & they couldn't decide between them up til then   ) The last 2 pregnancies had T18 & blighted ovum, bad luck  

Anyway if I can help encourage & motivate anyone here at the same times as trying to do so myself, I'll be very happy to try! I've found emotions & life to be quite up & down since the MCs, varying each week or month! I can relate to the feeling depressed sometimes about things that others have mentioned, totally understandable in the circumstances we've experienced. 

But we'll come through the other side of it all eventually and I hope we're all much much luckier this year       xxx


----------



## Molly99

I really get the anxiety about future treatments Crazyhorse. I'm in the far South West so any options are a logistical nightmare for me, that really doesn't help. The thought of all that planning and trying to make it all work at the right time...it takes some building up to.

Holing up for at least a month is exactly what you need lovely. It's hard at our age not to be panicked into doing something _immediately _, that's exactly what I did. I rushed into the next cycle way too quickly each time and my old clinic pretty much encouraged me to. It was definitely the wrong choice though, you need time to recover both physically and mentally. I wish that I could do it all again and do it properly with a proper rest in between this time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing 

Merlin, wishing you all the luck in the world for your upcoming FET. I can't get my head around why they only froze the one, that must be so frustrating. I've found the emotional rollercoaster very difficult too, like you say though it's completely natural isn't it. We're still here and smiling (at least for some of the time  )

xxx


----------



## Sassy-lassy

Thank you for starting this thread and for your PM Crazyhorse.  As you can see in my signature, I have had a challenging time of it, with 6x failed DE cycles, one of which ended in an ectopic pg and the other in a missed miscarriage.

I have been having treatment at Serum, but am currently taking time out to finish off my studies before considering the next steps (if any - we have now drained our life savings  :-( ).  

Completely concur with what others have said re anxiety, dread and feelings of loss.  It is all very difficult to come to terms with.  The loss of my last little lentil at just under 10x weeks hit OH and I particularly hard.

I will be back to this thread to contribute further in a couple of weeks time when my deadline's out the way.  IVF does not combine well with trying to write a dissertation.

In the meantime, hello to all the ladies to who find themselves on here and look forward to getting to know you better in the coming months.

Sass x


----------



## CrazyHorse

Merlin, I'm finding it really helpful to speak to other women who have miscarried who do not already have children and who are experiencing time pressure. I still have empathy for people who are suffering from miscarriage as part of secondary infertility, but I always can't help thinking that I would give just about anything to be in their situation, with a living child. And it's not possible for someone who is 30 with good ovarian reserve to fully understand the panic that can set in when you're 40 and have been ttc for years.

It's good to hear that I'm not the only one who feels a lot of anxiety about resuming treatment. I suffered a lot with everything except the one cancelled short protocol cycle I did (and in hindsight I should have taken that one follicle to egg collection, but I didn't have any way to know then that my eggs would fertilise so well). Buserelin gave me daily migraines, hormonal BCP made me depressed and irritable. I am giving serious consideration to trying a few rounds of natural IVF, since the prices are so reasonable. I'm totally fine with all the needles and injections on long protocol, but I need a protocol that doesn't muck up my migraine and depression issues.

Sassy, I'm glad you want to join in. Best of luck with your dissertation! And good for you for getting on with your life. I hope you'll be able to find the funds once you get your studies completed.  

Right now I'm at a museum coffee shop on the wifi. DH works from home when he's not traveling, and he's been wanting to make a point of getting out of the house and working from coffee shops and such for a few hours every day in order to get a change of scene. He convinced me to come along, and I'm glad I did. It's about the limit of what I can do right now, but it makes me feel more normal. 

I'm extremely thankful that DH does work from home about 2/3 of the time, because when I woke up at 4 am this morning and was sitting downstairs alone on the sofa for a few hours, I did not like the way I felt. I do think part of the reason I got so depressed after my BFN IVF cycle is that DH was away (he usually travels for 2 weeks at a time, and that trip had to straddle my OTD) -- way, WAY too much time to sit on my own becoming progressively more morose. Even though we talked on Skype every day, it's just not the same. I think if DH were disappearing off to an office every day next week, that would be rough. Like you say, gailgegirl, partner support makes a huge difference.


----------



## AK2014

Dear CrazyHorse,
Thank you for starting this thread and inviting me to join. Firstly I am so very sorry for you loss and hurt and anxiety. It's not a nice place to be in. I have been in your shoes soon after I lost my girls at 15 and 17 weeks. I trolled through all the sites to find others in my situation or someone who could give me some the answers to why it happened and how to move on. I Googled, joined various groups and didn't find the closure I was looking for. For the sadness will always be there but what I have learnt is how to live with it. It's now been over 8 months since that horrible day when we knew what was going to happen, the day my husband who is a typical alpha male fell down on his knees and held me sobbing uncontrollably, the day I only wanted to figure out a way to fix this problem and give him a child that we both want so much. I will never forget that day. Then I went through sadness and loads of self pity for three months. After that I tried my best to get on with life. I worked hard but my mind wasn't in it. I realised I needed to start making plans and give us hope again. Without hope there is nothing. I know that this is hard for everyone here but girls that's all we have. I realised that if my eggs are rubbish then I need to move to donor eggs. At the end of the day we want a family and considering our odds of both our girls being diagnosed with chromosonal abnormalities was one in 7000 and 5000 we were just darn unlucky. So we were given one in ten chances it might happen again. The choice for me was simple. Definitely donor eggs. It was a no brainer. So that is what we are planning to do! We are going to meet the lovely Penny on the 30th of this month and will take it from there! How do I feel about that? I am scared , sad, excited, nervous and hopeful all at the same time! You have to know something else about me. I moved to the UK on my own from India, made friends, met my husband and didn't give up when the going got tough or when people told me I wouldn't make it on my own. I guess that is what that keeps me going but God it's not easy when you get kicked in your gut over and over again. What I am trying to say here is please don't give up. There is hope and it may not be what you had planned but we will all have a family one day. A family we will love and call our own.
Big hugs to all Xxxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, AK, I can very much relate to what you are saying about needing to make plans. I have the rest of my life to come to terms with pregnancy loss, but a limited window to have a child, which is why I'm already looking at other clinics. While DH and I both very much want our baby to have a biological link to my family, we will move to donor eggs if OE doesn't work out. For me, I need to have a path in mind.

I'm always reluctant to tell people "don't give up", because sometimes people need to move on without achieving their dream of a child, and to find ways to enjoy their life without the child they planned for. So I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they're a failure because they don't have the financial, emotional, or other resources to continue attempting assisted reproduction treatments. However, I agree that it's important, if possible, to keep trying until you personally have come to terms with the outcome you have and can walk away feeling like you did what you could and won't deeply regret your decision to move on. For me, I'm still a long way from calling it quits, but like most people in our situation I have moments when I question my sanity for expending so much financial, mental, and physical capital on the IVF lottery.

AK, I wish you lots of luck at Serum! Donor eggs are ultimately the solution for many of us older ladies, and I deeply hope this treatment allows you to complete your family.


----------



## Guest

Hi everyone, well we're getting towards Friday!  

Molly and Gailgegirl thank you for your good luck wishes   I've just been reading some of the forget me not threads and read about someone who lost a twin to the trisomy I had in my ivf MC, which made me cry my eyes out, not sure I should I have read about it! My 20 wk loss was horrendous in 2012 but most of the time now Im just focused in current ttc & trying to be hopeful about this year's ivf. It's hard sometimes.

CrazyHorse I agree, I do feel in a different situation than if I was 30. Time is definitely of the essence and I feel like its this year or never for me, as we can only manage 1 more paid cycle if the FET doesn't work. Do you have any limits or see what happens?

Yesterday I was feeling a bit excited about starting treatnent again soon but this morning I'm feeling scared and a bit sad. Will pull myself together later I'm sure.

AK good luck at Serum, heard good things about it and Sassy hello as well!   

Have a good day All xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Merlin, 

I don't have a hard stop on additional OE cycles, but I can't see continuing beyond my 42nd birthday (I will be 41 in two months) given the extremely low likelihood of success at 42+. I'm guessing I will attempt up to 4 OE cycles this year, possibly more if we are able to get eggs via natural or mild IVF. Then if that fails I will take time off to grieve and gather funds before moving on to DE. I am hopeful, though.

I am so sorry about your 20w loss. My recent miscarriage was very upsetting, but I know it would have been more upsetting with every additional week I'd had to develop confidence and invest emotionally in the baby. I'm amazed how much people suffer on their journeys to parenthood -- it's a world of daily battles that are invisible to the rest of the world.


----------



## Molly99

Merlin sweetie, it's such a roller coaster isn't it.  I can't think of a better word for it, I don't think that there are many other issues that make you go through the full spectrum of emotions within the space of a few hours is there.

It does make me sadder to read all of your stories, it's odd isn't it because there are a million tragic and heart breaking stories out there but it is the element of time that makes ours more painful.

It's funny how many people feel that they can offer 'advice' as soon as you reach 40, suddenly it's so easy for people to say for you to accept and move on.  As if it's that easy and you can press the magical switch.

Crazyhorse and Gailgegirl, you're so right, I question my sanity all of the time and why I can't just find my plan B.  I've been trying to do that but it hasn't been pretty, I don't think that it's possible when you haven't crossed the giving up bridge yet either.  I also don't think that its possible to ever 100% give up when you have step children, I love them to bits but however much I adore them it will always scratch a raw wound.

My DH and I have had a very rough time going through cycles and the last failure almost broke us up.  Like you say though, at some point you have to decide whether all of this is worth sacrificing everything else for.  For me, it isn't but I still don't see why I can't have it all yet.  I've been quite shocked at the number of people who've told me to leave him and go it alone though.  It just isn't that simple  

AK, I am so sorry for your losses.  You sound so amazingly strong, I really hope that your meeting goes well with Penny.  Serum sounds like such a fantastic option, Prague and Serum are definitely on my list. 

Sending you all lots of   this morning xxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Hello ladies

Crazy - thanks for setting this thread up, I think it's a great idea    Sadly I think many of us have crossed paths for the reason of shared misfortune but it's wonderful to find the support out there amongst all of you strong and determined women  

I have been rather inward looking the last few days and other than my diary, am finding it quite difficult to write overly personal posts....I don't know why   For some reason the diary allows me to do that.  

Crazy - I'm so impressed by how you are already researching your options.    I feel rather stagnant actually.  I KNOW that FET is the next step but I'm terrified by the idea it might not work and also about how long it might be before we can do it.  I have absolute faith in serum but none whatsoever in my body especially given it took so long to recover from last years bfn and now I have a pregnancy AND ERPC to recover from it just seems like that FET might be a LONG way off.....

Ak - I think we crossed paths when you started to ask questions about serum. You'll love it there. It's very different from UK clinics but very much more personalised and warm. DP and I love it and can't imagine being anywhere else now.  Good luck with your first appointment - i Will follow you on the serum boards. One thing you'll find  there is lots of support from past and present cycling ladies, that's just how it works, isn't it Sassy?

Merlin -   We've supported each other since last year haven't we? I so hope your FET next month turns out to be your golden embie   You've had so much to bear.

Molly - I'm so glad to hear you've found a way to go again -    I know from reading your posts over the last year what a hard time you've had, and that you definitely weren't ready to bow out.

Gailgegirl - thank you for all your kind messages. You've been through the mill yourself and been so generous with your thoughts. I hope your journey brings you the family you long for  

Sassy - we have definitely crossed paths on the Greek boards   How are you?

No the much to say about me at the moment. I'm signed off for two weeks and I've been really tired and achey all this week so far so a good thing really. I go through periods of being able to think straight but mostly being a bit of a wreck.  DP is being amazing....I just want to feel normal again  

Grey xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Grey, glad you felt able to post today. I don't think you should feel stagnant -- you're grieving. Sometimes you just have to get down and wallow in it. I've been doing some wallowing myself today. I should be pregnant, and I'm not, and I don't know how to come to terms with that. None of this seems real; I feel like I accidentally slipped into an alternate universe, and there's another parallel universe out there where my pregnancy is trucking along just fine. However, I know that I'm stuck here now. 

Planning future cycles is a coping mechanism for me -- I know I can't bear to keep doing the same treatments we've been doing, and I need to find a clinic that will tailor their protocol to my very particular characteristics (low response to stims, high fertilisation rate) and needs (avoiding migraines and hormone-induced depression). Maybe it's too early to think about this, but have you considered doing a further fresh cycle prior to doing FET, so that you can bank as many embryos as possible? Of course that may just be too much after everything -- FET is certainly a less taxing process. Glad your DP is being such a support.

*waving to everyone*


----------



## Dory10

Just wanted to hop on and give Crazy a huge hug    I've followed your story and am so sorry for your loss.  Wish there were more words at such crappy times.

Dory
xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thank you, dear Dory. There's so much pain to go around, isn't there? So many of us on these boards who have been through the mill.  

Here's hoping 2015 turns into a better year for both of us.


----------



## AK2014

Hi CrazyHorse, oh I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying not to give up. Just encouragement that's all. I guess I can be so direct sometimes it comes out wrong and insensitive. I really hope you are coping better today hun xxx
Molly, I know this treatment really tests relationship. My dh and I almost split up last year. We went through counselling for three months. What I learnt from that was listen to each other. For us I got too obsessed with the treatment and getting pregnant and didn't listen to what was happening to us as a couple of listen to his needs as well. You see my dh can show only two emotions, happiness and anger! So every other emotion rolls into one of the two he can emote. I thinkta lot of men don't openly share their fears and sorrow and that is the reason we misunderstand them so often. Strange as they seem I have discovered they are more like us than I thought. But in my case we are both equally stubborn which was not helpful but after our counselling sessions it has given us the tools to deal with our frustrations.
Merlin, hun I am so sorry to hear about your losses. It's heartbreaking and I am so happy to hear you are getting excited about the next treatment. It takes a brave lady to do what you are doing. We are truely a tough bunch. I will follow your success with fingers crossed xx
Greyhound of course I remember you hun. I am so very sorry to hear your hopes being crushed so abruptly. It's not fair. I admire your courage to even start writing here again. Big hugs   thank you about serum. I will keep you posted on our progress xx
Hey Gailgegal,
Thank you for your kind note to me. It means a lot to me. I completely agree with your comments onhow this affects relationships and you seem more wise than me. You realised this without having to go to couples counselling  
I hope you do find peace in whatever you decide to you
Big hugs to all xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Oh, Gail, what a last bl**dy straw. My DH had someone rear-end him when he was on business back in the U.S., when we were just starting our first IVF cycle, and even though he wasn't injured and the damage was minimal, it just about broke his brain. This infertility business doesn't leave us with a lot of coping ability left over for the other crappiness in life, and the last thing you need is more sources of physical pain.     

What kinds of tests are you needing done? Would it potentially be cheaper to get them done in Greece or Czech Republic than in London?

Sending you lots of hugs.


----------



## Molly99

Oh honey, are you ok? That is terrible news. I know when it seems like things can't get any worse, they still do. I know when I reached my absolute lowest my neighbours dog was out of control and ran flat into my dog looking like a little rabbit. It didn't end well. I honestly couldn't believe it, what life can through at you.

All you have to do is think that this is it now, this is the final straw and you _will _ come through it. Put your feel up and have a really good wallow in some very well deserved self pity then give yourself a huge treat. xxxx

Grey lovely, I saw your diary post about work this morning. It is really hard to switch off but just this once, put yourself first sweetie. xxxx

Exactly the same to all of you wonderful ladies too xxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Oh Gail how awful   And on top of everything else   I think you should sorts the afternoon on the sofa eating chocolate....I'm probably going to do that and I NEVER do that....so sorry. As crazy says, is there anywhere else you can have tests done? If it's immune testing I know you can do that in Greece much more cheaply and again Czech might be an option but I dint know....

Molly - I think you're right but it's so hard especially when I know if I don't do it now it will still be there waiting when I go back to work.....it's just piling up amd no one else does what I do   it's a pain in the proverbial.....

I'm getting a lot of cramping at the moment and it's really making my back hurt   that together with the chest/upper back pains means that over all I'm feeling like cr*p again today  

Grey xx


----------



## wendycat

Hello ladies


Firstly, massive hugs for you all   


Thank you crazy horse for setting the thread up.   


I've been thinking a lot about where this thread is best situated and where it will give the most support. The ladies on here obviously need a place where they can be with others in the same situation and to talk about plans for the future. Because it is exclusively for over forties who find themselves in the awful position of suffering a loss, and I absolutely respect your need for a separate area for this, I am going to move it into the over forties section.


FF is about support and acceptance and I'd like to think that one of my responsibilities as the moderator on the loss boards is to find the places where the most people needing support will find a specific thread. 


I think this thread wants to encompass loss as well as trying again in a very specific area (over forties and childless) and because of this I feel it is best placed on the over forties section. I hope you can all understand my decision, please do pm me if you'd like to discuss it.


Wendy the loss boards mod


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thank you, Wendy, I think your decision is perfectly reasonable. I debated this in my mind as well when I started the thread. I originally put it in the pregnancy loss area because it seemed like there were a bunch of us with recent miscarriages who were struggling with the emotional impact of those losses, but as the thread has developed I agree with you that it seems really like a more natural fit for the Over 40 board. Due to the merciless time constraints, we are all thinking a lot more about what to do next than we might be if we were younger or already had children, and I can see how that is rather different to most coping-after-loss threads. 

Grey, I hope you are taking it easy and letting work go hang. If you have a respiratory infection on top of the miscarriage aftermath, your poor body needs lots of rest and an absence of stress. I do understand about being the only person at work who can really do certain things, though, and how stuff just piles up when you're off sick and becomes a giant looming pile of DOOM if you don't try to chip away at it even when you're sick. That happened to me when I broke my wrist last year (at a training function for work, ironically). But I really think your sanity needs to come first right now. I'm dreading trying to get back to normal work life next week, and my miscarriage journey hasn't been nearly as physically harrowing as yours. Give yourself a break. Thinking of you and sending love and hugs.


----------



## wendycat

Thank you for your understanding    I'll be sure to point any new ladies in this general direction xx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Wendy - it seems to make sense. I think all of us over 40s ladies won't get offended about relocating....as Crazy says We are all in the horrible situation of not having much time and so we have to press on regardless of our grief.....time being of the essence.  If it helps other ladies in our situation to find us and find support, I am all for it  

Crazy, Gail - I didn't do the work in the end but I'll probably stress about it all weekend.  I did send a couple of emails out to team members to ask them to do some things for me which might help me when I do eventually start work again....right now, I can't imagine it at all.  To be perfectly honest, I don't love my work that much anymore. I used to be very career driven and ambitious but not any more and as a result I tend to find the work quite irritating - there are so many more important things in life   but it is well paid and so for now I need to suck that up - saving for a hopeful maternity leave.....I honestly don't know how i will get through the next year.....I had it in my head I'd only have to put up with it until July and then I would be focussing on our new baby   how fate can turn on you  

I hope you're both feeling ok this afternoon - it's a rough old time   Thinking of you and sending lots of love

Grey xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

The balancing of work life and treatment is really hard. I originally thought we'd do 2 or 3 OE IVF cycles, those would be a massive failure (given my stats), and then we'd take a year or two to grieve and adjust before moving on to DE. Accordingly, I was looking for full-time work after our move back to Edinburgh from London, while doing my part-time stuff. However, my eggs, while very few in number, actually seem to be pretty high quality for my age, and for me personally it's extremely important to give OE every reasonable chance before I move on. I feel that way even more strongly after this miscarriage. I'm still keeping feelers out for full-time contract work just in case something suitably flexible comes along, but I plan to continue with my part-time telecommuting gig so that I can focus on treatment this next year. 

I do recognise that I'm extremely fortunate -- DH earns enough that we can manage on his income alone, although I worry about not saving enough, and I only need to do enough part-time work to fund treatment.  (The downside of that well-paid job is that we go through a lot of stressful machinations to schedule his work travel around our treatment schedule, and he has conference calls at all hours, but on the upside he can set his own schedule most days and do things like accompany me to scans or work from a hotel room in Prague.) However, it's extremely frustrating to have to put my career on hold during what would otherwise be one of the most lucrative and productive periods of it. But my health and our future child have to come first, and I know that lack of sleep and dealing with too many stressors at once is a recipe for depression in my case. And if I get seriously depressed, I won't be able to handle work OR fertility treatment.

Generally, I think putting one's career on hold for fertility treatment is best avoided, as the outcome is so uncertain, but the calculus changes after 40.


----------



## mandalay

Please forgive me for posting on this thread. You may not think me well suited because I am so much older than you and have two sons.
I have read the whole thread and want, first and foremost, to send you a hug 
Yes, I do have two sons but it has not been plain sailing. I don't mention miscarriages inbetween etc. I do know how it feels to lie on the sofa to try to save a pregnancy and dread visits to the loo with blood clots and stomach cramps. I know what doctors say when you visit at 40+ wanting their help and finding none. You wake up during the night and wonder why you are tortured like this. I have done so much crying too.
I hope that you will find the strength to keep going. Even at 52, I am still trying - even after a clinic cruelly told me that they had transferred my embryo and there was nothing there. On the 50+ board there are many ladies without children who are pursuing treatment - with and without partners - and succeeding. Forget about what people say. Ignore the age issue. Do what you can to keep your morale strong and body healthy. Take all the time you need to recover and listen to your partners. It is hard. It isn't fair. You see lots of women dragging children about who do not deserve to raise a hamster let alone a child and it isn't fair. No-one can give you an answer.
On my last miscarriage, I was with a lady who had had 8 miscarriages and no children but she DID succeed afterwards.
Emotional support from other ladies and resting for as long as necessary is very important. But don't give up. When it works, it is totally out of the blue. You are convinced it'll end the same way and, week by week, you plod on. And then someone puts your little one in your arms and it really doesn't matter if it's OE, DE, natural birth, caesarean. It doesn't matter about all those failed attempts. The only thing you will remember is that feeling.
Don't feel that you have to cram it in. I am going for it. Take care of yourselves, you wonderful ladies.
xxx


----------



## Guest

Hi everyone   

CrazyHorse, Molly and AK   thanks for your nice wishes & thoughts yesterday. I've been feeling more normal today, apart from painful IBS!   I'm unable to give up the foods which probably don't help, grr! Molly I totally understand that it would be unhelpful for people to say just leave DH. The insensitive things people can come out with!   I'm really trying to be more flowing this year & let some things go in 1 ear & out the other.

Grey hi again!   And welcome here although I'm so sorry you've had to join this thread   Thanks for being such a kind person   You deserve the year to end very differently to how it started. Im glad you didn't end up doing too much work today. Delegation sounds the ideal solution at the moment! I too have been longing to go on maternity leave...sigh!

gailgegirl I'm so sorry to hear about your car and clinic hassles today  I had 3 separate people go into me last year! Just what you don't need. I hope things get sorted as easily as possible. We all need a new turn on the wheel of fortune don't we!  

Wendy no probs with the move here either, I'm happy to be surrounded by people who can most understand, although I'm sorry any of us have to have experienced these difficulties  

Crazy I agree with you and will never advise any girl to wait till late 30's to start ttc a family! I'm sure none of us expected this & couldn't necessarily do anything about it. At times I wish id left early relationships much sooner but never mind!   Sounds good re your eggs though.

AFM Im going to the hairdressers tomorrow & preparing for the holiday me & DH are going on next week. Will be so lovely to relax in the sun for a bit. I will be sad to take my dogs to their kennel, hope I don't miss them too much! 

I hope everyone has as positive a weekend as possible xxx


----------



## Guest

Mandalay nice to meet you and to read your lovely supportive post. Wishing you all the best  
I was just wondering if anyone here felt reluctant about being in a 2ww thread due to all the much younger people cycling? I've probably thought about it too much and I dont mean any offence   I looked at the Jan one and actually there were a few similar aged women, I just feel like it's an even bigger disadvantage being 40 now   I know it's not a competition but sometimes I do find that hard! Also does anyone find themselves feeling a bit superstitious or put off when people around you may seem to expect you'll never manage to have a biological family? I know I'm thinking about it too much!   I'm however avoiding anyone negative about it in real life and trying to protect myself!
Happy Saturday everyone xx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Hi Merlin

Maybe it's because the over 40s cyclers thread is so warm and we know each other so well or maybe it's because the serum boards are like a second home but I haven't use the 2ww threads at all......I took a look and ran a mile. It was the same for me with the early scans and pregnancy threads.....there were so many young women there I really didn't feel comfortable. Their journeys are just as valid as ours but their concerns are worlds apart....so I prefer to stick with my "own". If you feel like that - just stick with the over 40s cyclers thread - you'll get masses of support  

Grey xx


----------



## Guest

Thanks Grey, yes I think I will do that   xxx


----------



## AK2014

Hi everyone! I am being super lazy and am still in bed even though I should be doing a chore of things! A quick one, 
Gailgegal I am so sorry you had such a tough time yesterday. Sometimes it gets so hard. Really hope you are taking all the rest you need after the accident. I can relate to feelings of helplessness where you don't seem to get a break. That is why we are here xx
Merlin,  yes I felt like that when both my cycles were cancelled due to poor stimulation and people even mentioned the ' d ' word! Just listen to you guts and do what you feel is right for you. You WILL make the right decision no matter what. Big hugs xxxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Mandalay, thank you for your hopeful words. 

AK, I meant to say earlier, I wasn't in any way offended by your "don't give up" comments, I just wanted to sound a note of caution about how those words can feel to someone who may be facing the end of their financial, mental, and physical resources. Personally, I am nowhere near ready to stop trying, but I know that many people in our age group find themselves (for many reasons) making the painful decision to move forward into a future without children, and I want to make sure they aren't put off from posting here by the rest of us busy making plans for the next treatment round.

Merlin, Grey, I've participated in the tww threads before, but not so much in the "cycle buddies" thread. I'm not put off by the numbers of younger women (many of whom have had worse fertility struggles than mine), but I sometimes find it difficult to deal with people agonising over secondary infertility and the ladies who are just taking Clomid or doing IUI with minimal drugs. It is of course not their fault, and their need for support is just as valid as mine, but the experience is so different that I find it hard to respond sensitively to some of their comments, and it's difficult to participate appropriately in a thread if you end up ignoring a significant percentage of the posters.

I find it particularly hard to empathise sometimes with people who are deeply upset over secondary infertility, when I am so desperate to have just one child of my own. Obviously I sympathise when anyone has a miscarriage and feel bad for them no matter how many children they have, but I have a hard time mustering appropriate empathy when people who have a child already are devastated by a BFN. I think it's envy on my part, and envy's not an emotion that I'm normally very prone to, or have a lot of patience with -- it makes me feel like a bad and small person to feel that way, but there it is. Anyone else finding themselves with this problem?


----------



## Baking Queen

Hello Ladies
I've been reading this thread for a few days and just wanted to say thank you for putting into words how I feel.  I know everybody's IF journey is personal and individual but I find it really hard on some of the other threads. Especially when people still in their 20s say time is running out for them and I get it might feel like that to them but sometimes I feel like screaming at them to try being in your 40s and getting continual BFNs. But I know I can't say that because they are just as in need of support as I am, it's just their focus is different. The same for people who already have children.
Thanks Crazy Horse for starting this thread. I've been reading your diary and I really hoped things worked out for you - so sorry they didn't. 
Lots of love to you all.
BQ. xx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thanks, Baking Queen.


----------



## Kim01

Hi Ladies
i hope you don't mind me joining this thread. I find this IF journey is so hard.  About  4 yrs ago my in laws learnt about our inf journey. My SIL said to me "you are  too old to have a child because you would not live long enough to raise him or her".  In 2013 I had my first DEIVf cycle failed. Two months after my bfn my MIL said to me " you are born a BARREN. If you were meant to have a child. Then this IVF treatment should have worked.  Accept it -it's your destiny to be childless". Cut the long story short I cut off my ties with partner and the nasty witch in laws.  I went solo. I got pregnant with my 2nd DEIVF sadly I miscarried my daughter at 21 wks due to cervical incompetence in Sept 2014.  I just had a permanent stitch (TAC) put in this week to prevent this happening. I'm recovering well at the moment.  I shall go for my 3rd DEIVf cycle once I get all the clear from my TAC surgeon. My friends think I should be fine after the op but I'm more worried about the coming FET than my previous cycle.  I haven't started my protocol yet and already worried about 2ww and OTD. I struggled to get my lining thick enough for my last FET.  It took me a few tries before i was giving the go a head for ET.  I have chronic thin lining, immune and clotting issues. Sorry i waffled a lot. I just want to say you ladies on this thread are so strong and supportive to each other. Lets hope the year 2015 brings us lots of baby dusts.


----------



## Guest

Hi everyone, happy Sunday! I've just been to an unexpectedly energetic exercise class, phew! I hope I can stand up when I get home as I still have some jobs to do!  

Baking Queen and Kim, nice to meet you and Im sorry for the losses you've had  
Baking Queen I feel the same and as Gailgegirl and Crazy have been talking about it does get more of a challenge as the years tick along, we all deserve even more of a medal!   
Kim I'm sorry your family said such awful things. I've come to the conclusion it isn't just all about fertility, so many people just aren't used to applying that much empathy, kindness or understanding to other people's situations. I really hope I'll be able to in some way contribute positively in this area in the future, or even now. I'm trying to start with myself, but it is so much harder when you're in the middle of a loss or trauma. So this thread & forum is really great  

Lots of   to everyone else, hope all ok xxx


----------



## Guest

I hope everyone is ok this morning and CrazyHorse, Gailgegirl & Grey you are recovering from your recent sad losses   And others who have had losses previously too   It takes such a lot of resilience doesn't it.

I've been fighting off a grey cloud this morning thinking about the last 3 yrs, feeling a bit sorry for myself. I spoke to my mum on the phone who said it had been hard for her too & I won't understand about what it's like worrying about your children until I have a family of my own. I said she will probably never understand my situation as she has 3 children! Grr. Sorry for a moan at the start of the week!

Wishing everyone a positive week xx


----------



## Guest

Gailgegirl that sounds good getting organised for your next tx, it can help planning things can't it. Well done with the spinach salad as well!   At least you're looking after yourself, that's important too. I promised my DH last night that once we've got our family I will stop spending a fortune on supplements!   I'm sure they've helped though, as my last follow up scan was very healthy at least. We need all the energy we can get in this situation! I even try to swallow green drinks during the week, urgh!!   

Kim I had a similar situation to you where my membranes broke early causing me to lose my baby in 2nd trimester. How are you getting on?  

Baking Queen I find it hard too when people in their 20's or early 30's talk about their time running out. I know other people's friends of that age group might be on their 2nd & 3rd siblings but when so far you have zero at this age, it's a different ballgame  

AFM, I've just got tomorrow at work and then going to sunny Antigua for a week. I wish it was a month! I'm so looking forward to it!  

Crazy, AK, Grey, Mandalay, Molly & anyone else, hope you're all doing ok xx


----------



## Chocolate21

Hi ladies,

I hope you don't mind me joining this thread. I feel I am such a newbie to all of this, having read all of your posts and everything your have all been through. I am so, so sorry for all of your struggles and losses, and hope that this year brings you all the good news you so deserve. 

I lost my first pregnancy just before Christmas at week 9, following IVF no. 1. My DF and I have been TTC with no luck for years - during this time I lost one ovary to a large dermoid cyst, then part of the other ovary to another cyst. We put all of our TTC problems down to me, only to discover three years ago that, surprise, my DF is azoospermic (carrier for CF). So several waiting lists and one operation later, we were finally able to proceed with IVF in October. Given that I'm 42, I had no real hope of IVF working, so when I got a BFP, we were over the moon. The miscarriage was really hard (I don't think I've ever cried as much), but my age and knowing there'll be no miracle natural BFP have made it so much harder. I've gone from being a confident, multi-tasker to someone who panics over the smallest, day to day things. At work, I am surrounded by lots of Mums to be and new mothers and it is getting so much harder to be around them without horrible jealousy kicking in. I have also had my fair share of insensitive comments from friends and colleagues (not from family though  - I do count my blessings there). 

I'm not sure where to go from here and would welcome any advice. I was an NHS patient in the north of Scotland, but moving onto self-funding opens up more choice for us. My DF's sperm is stored at our clinic, but DF is happy to use a donor if we move clinic as he doesn't want to go through the operation again. I'm deliberating whether to give OE one more go, or just move onto DE. I have so many questions about the reasons for the miscarriage (egg quality? immune problems as I have Hashimotos?) and really wish I could answer them before I decide on my next move. Futile wish, I know. Today, I've had a good look at clinics in the Czech republic and Serum in Greece and feel that going abroad with donor embryo adoption and immune treatment could be the way forward. It's a scary step though. 

Hope everyone is okay and that life is treating you all as gently as possible just now 

xxx


----------



## Kim01

Merlin – so sorry for your loss.  I cope best by planning and focusing for my next treatment.  There are still days that I thought about my angel baby.  Have a lovely time away.
Gailgegirl – thanks  for your kind words.  All of my friends  agree that my in –laws are pure evil.  They are history now – out of life for good.  My clinic is very up to date with their practices.  I was given the full therapy – thanked to them that was how I got my bfp last year.  I hope you get rid of the nasty virus.
Chocolate – welcome.  Big hugs.  This journey is so hard.  Take your time to grieve.  Are you entitled for another free NHS cycle?  If you are then I would give it another go with OE.  If you are not then DE & DS might save you a lot of money and easier on your body.  Doing DD overseas is cheaper but it is anonymous.  Your child would not be able to trace its  biological parents.    I don’t have an issue with my donors being anonymous – hence I doing it DD overseas.    I plan to return soon to collect my icebabies.  For my last FET I was on the maximum therapy: acupuncture, endoscratch, intralipids, prednisolone, clexane, aspirin and  thyroxine.  Also I have challenging thin lining  - I was put on tamoxifen and GCSF uterine wash.  I will be on the same protocol for my next FET.  Under the international thread – there are a lot of clinics there.  Have a look at those overseas thread-  Ladies there can advise on general cost factor etc.  Wish you luck.

Hi to everyone else.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Welcome, KimT and Chocolate21. 

Kim, I am glad you've cut your in-laws out of your life -- I can't begin to understand people who would speak to another human being like that.

Chocolate, I am so sorry for your recent loss. My miscarriage was just over a week after yours, at pretty much the same point in the pregnancy. I think the miscarriage cuts so much deeper when you know how unlikely the pregnancy was in the first place and how hard it will be to get pregnant again. If you don't have an overwhelming desire to use your own eggs, you sound like an ideal candidate for DE, given your age and what your poor ovaries have been through. Every woman on these boards who has a child through DE is just as besotted with their baby as they would be if the DNA link were there, and it really can be a godsend. Unfortunately for me, I feel like I have to keep trying with my own eggs -- my biological family is very small, and I want to feel like I've done everything I can to keep our genes going before I cross the bridge to DE.  

Hope everyone else is coping OK just now. Ups and downs over here.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Gail, I'm sorry the specialist near you is being so useless. Do you know which tests you still need? Blue Horizon Medicals offers a Recurrent Miscarriage blood test package (just go to their website and type "recurrent miscarriage" in the search box) which covers a lot of this stuff, and they have some Northern Ireland locations for blood collection. I'm not sure if you need a UK address for them to send bills and lab results to -- if they do, PM me if I can help (I don't know if you have relatives in UK). Anyway, don't know if that helps, but thought I would mention it in case it's useful.  

Have you done any research on what analysts predict the housing market to do in the next 2 years? And  what would be the shortest rental term on this property? You mention that renting this place would mean putting your purchase plans on hold for four years, but I've never heard of a lease having a 4-year minimum term....  If it were me personally, I would keep working on buying a property, due to the age issue as you mention. I know it's ridiculous, given we'll all probably be working until age 75, but there it is. It might be nice to let your dream place continue being a dream you can think about with nostalgic longing -- often the shine wears off these dream homes when you have to start dealing with everything that needs fixed! Just saying -- I do get it, but it's also awfully nice to own your own place and be able to set everything up exactly the way you want, as well as building equity for yourself rather than a landlord.


----------



## Guest

Just popping in very briefly to say hello and   to everyone on this thread. I had a very relaxing lovely holiday and think that is the best medicine   

Im so sorry for the hardships we've all had here and I do hope things get easier & we all have some good luck this year, as we really deserve it! Gail I'm really sad to see those are the rules in Ireland  

 and strength to everyone   xxx


----------



## Guest

Thanks Gailgegirl and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick due to reading too fast or jet lag earlier in the week! I thought I'd read in Ireland you can't adopt over 42, which I felt sad about. I can see there are lots of issues involved with de vs oe. I agree with you about your right to choose re telling your child and think giving them lots of love throughout life is the most important thing. Personally I'll only be trying 1 more fresh cycle if we have to, due to finances, so will persevere with oe and after that it would have to be adoption for us. It feels very frightening and like a lot of pressure at times and we just want to get on with having a family. I wish none of us here have had to wait so long   Good luck Gail with whatever you decide re housing too. Crazy's advice sounded good. Do you work in Psychology? 

Hi to everyone else, hope you're having a nice weekend xx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Just poking my head in to say hi! 

I'm doing pretty well at this point -- I still think about my pregnancy  often, but usually without a lot of sadness now. There are occasional bad moments when I do things that I had thought I was going to be doing while pregnant, and now I'm doing them while not pregnant. But in general I'm mostly back to my normal self. I am trying to exercise more and shift some of the weight I gained (progesterone makes me want to eat everything).

Currently I'm hoping to do a cycle of "mild" IVF (letrozole and low-dose Menopur) in March at Reprofit in Brno. I've spoken with one of their doctors on Skype, and we are in sync about the best way to proceed given the fact that my ovaries are never going to produce more than 2 or 3 eggs in a cycle on any protocol. There's an ultrasound clinic just down the hill from my house that offers follicle tracking scans for £99 a go, so I think we're all set -- I just need to figure out a pharmacy. Even with travel and drug costs, this will still be at most half the cost of an IVF cycle in the UK, which I'm happy about.

Hope everyone's doing OK. I've gotten a lot of benefit this past month from chatting with you other ladies who know what it's like.


----------



## WayneE

Hi ladies, I've been following this thread from the start but I find everytime I go to post something that I get very emotional and delete what I've written. I'm 42 and childless. Not a place I thought I'd be. 

CrazyHorse, I completely understand why you set this thread up. I'm on another thread with you and I get why our situation is different. Whilst I've never lost a baby because I've never once been pregnant or even been late, I absolutely do feel the same pressure of time running out for me and my old eggs. 

Good luck with your mild cycle in Reprofit. The cost of IVF in the UK is wild. I can't understand why it is so much cheaper in other countries. 

Hi to all other ladies. 

Take care, Wayne x


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Wayne -- dealing with time pressure is hard, isn't it? And then there's always the question of "when is enough enough, when do I switch to DE" lurking in the background. 

In some ways, I think never being pregnant is harder than suffering a single miscarriage (can't speak to multiple miscarriages as I've not been there at this point). Once you've managed to get beyond the chemical pregnancy stage, you know it's at least a possibility. While I've grieved quite a bit for this miscarriage, it has not made me depressed the way the BFN on the previous cycle did. So I certainly do feel for your situation too.

Thanks for the good wishes. If you think the cost of IVF in the UK is bad, look at the prices in the U.S. sometime! Completely unreal. But no, I don't know why prices are quite as high as they are in the UK -- even taking higher labour costs into account, it still seems excessive, especially for the typical quality of care.


----------



## Lisa123

Hi CrazyHorse - Thank you for starting this thread - I am finding a lot of comfort on here! 

Hi ladies - thank you for sharing your thoughts and fears, hopes and advice. I am very sorry for your loss and I am so glad that in this forum, we can offer each other support and encouragement during these difficult times.

I am recovering from my 3rd miscarriage within a year, and am still feeling emotional, sad, and confused ... confused about what should be the next step. At my age (45), I know that the chances for a successful OE pregancy are extremely small, but like CrazyHorse, I feel like I have to keep trying as I haven't quite accepted the idea of DE IVF yet.  Each time I fall pregnant, I feel that perhaps I have a chance, but each time that hope is crushed so cruelly that I feel like I am kidding myself. I completely understand what some of you are saying about desperately trying to have a baby with OE when time is fast running out. 

I have been referred to the NHS recurrent miscarriage clinic, and I'm thinking of going private just to make sure that they do the tests thoroughly (as I read that the NHS may not do the immune tests). They will probably tell me what I already know, ie, it's because of my age. But I am clinging to any hope, however slim, that it might have been due to non age-related things...

I am so glad to have found this thread as it is giving me some hope and lots of comfort knowing that I am not alone.

Best wishes to everybody and big hugs!   xx


----------



## Guest

Hi Lisa - I just wanted to say I'm really sorry to hear about your 3 mc's last year    
It's such a hard thing to go through. I had 2 last year and that was bad enough. It's positive that you're conceiving easily by the sounds of things. Have you thought about IVF at all? If my frozen transfer isn't successful my DH has agreed that we will fund 1 further fresh cycle and for me it's essential that it includes my clinic's Array treatment, where the embryos are genetically screened. I think the horrendous price would be worth it, as I can't face anymore mc's and am worried enough about my FET which is part of my NHS funded cycle last year (& they refuse to do the screening or even let me pay to do it)  

Anyway, there's always hope! I also started a thread about 40+ successful OE pregnancies, so maybe you could see if that encourages you? Wishing you good luck at the recurrent miscarriage clinic, I hope it is helpful. There are others here who have benefitted from immune treatment. All the best  

Wayne sending you a   as well. It's hard and I hadn't imagined being in this situation at this age either. It's just as well we can't all see into the future sometimes!   Although hopefully the next part of our futures will be a lot nicer! Wishing you all the best too. All you can do sometimes is   !

I hope the ladies using this thread are feeling ok, recovering & getting any support that helps   xx


----------



## WayneE

Hi Lisa, I'm so sorry about your miscarriages. Whilst nothing can take the pain of that away you should take some solace from the fact that you have been able to get pregnant 3 times in one year. Maybe the immune testing will throw something up. I think, if money's not an object, you should go for it and doing it privately would surely be quicker than NHS. Perhaps you should consider going to a fertility clinic which specialises in immune issues. 

Thanks CrazyHorse and Merlin for your kind words.

Hugs to all, Wayne x


----------



## Guest

Today I am feeling really fed up   I've just found out my brother's girlfriend is pregnant with her 2nd baby. I've been expecting this for a while, as my niece is 8 now. She was born when my younger brother & his girlfriend were 20, whilst I was going through getting divorced. I'm now 40 with no children still, just 3 miscarriages including a horrific 5 month loss.  

It has been an absolute nightmare for me having her in the family (not my niece, I love my brother & her dearly). She has treated me & my sister like the 2 wicked step-sisters, whilst obtaining money from my mum & her husband, acting like queen of the family as she has the important golden child in the family, making my mum & her husband fawn all over her (even though her own dad is well off, whilst mine has nearly always been on incapacity benefit). I am at work so trying to keep it all in, but feel like crying my eyes out. I want everyone to be happy, but this is really hard going and made me feel really pessimistic & anxious sbout my ivf this year   To top it all off the baby will be due in my birthday, which I had always dreamed of happening for a baby of my own, as I was born on my mums birthday. Silly I know! Sorry for the whinge


----------



## WayneE

Hey Merlin, there's nothing harder than other people getting on with their lives when you feel stuck.  At my SIL Chrstmas party I met my niece's newborn for the first time and then my other neice announced to the whole party that she was pregnant. I had it tough reacting like I was pleased. Which I am, but I wanted to cry. 

Last week I heard my sister's boyfriend is planning a surprise proposal and that left me in tears too as I know she plans to have children asap.  Imagine being jealous of your sister. So I felt bad for being mean. 

I suppose we just have to accept that that's their journey and no two are the same. Also I tried to set some boundaries to protect myself. For example I knew the baby was going to be at the party so I planned before hand that I would ohh and ahh but I wouldn't hold her. Also I wouldn't get drawn into baby talk. I told my DH this so he knew to save me, if needed. 

AFM today has been tough. Today my clinic turned me down for any more OE treatment. 

Wayne x


----------



## Guest

Thanks Gailgegirl and Wayne   

Gail I thought up a couple of positives yesterday to help cope with the pregnant SIL news, including hopefully it will mean the rest of the family are focused on her so maybe I can get on with my ivf this year under the radar and forgotten about?   you're right it does make a tonne of difference when people are empathic to your situation, I'm glad you love your SIL anyway, I wish I felt like that. I didn't manage to have a good cry, maybe it will come out another time now!

Wayne you're not mean at all and I totally get how you must have felt with your sister. You deserve to be happy yourself. I'm really sorry about your clinic turning you down for OE treatment   Such a hard journey this is. Will you be thinking of DE? I hope you get a plan that makes you feel positive. Thinking of you and sending a big


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Gail, I probably won't be able to start treatment until March. I recently became a UK citizen, which means I've had to apply for my first British passport. In practice, I could probably re-enter the country easily enough using the combination of my U.S. passport, my UK naturalisation certificate, my UK permanent resident card, and my British husband, but I'm not going to risk it. If you get refused entry to a country, it becomes one of those things you have to disclose on applications if you ever need to immigrate anywhere else. So I'm stuck waiting for my UK passport to arrive. The alternative would have been to apply for a "right of abode" stamp on my US passport, but that's not any faster. 

It's OK, though -- it enforces a bit of a break, which is probably no bad thing for my mental state. Physically, I could start treatment right now, as I just got my period this morning and it seems totally normal. I'm hoping that over the next month I can lose some of the weight I put on during the pregnancy, as the hormones were making me eat everything in sight.

Wayne, I'm sorry to hear about your clinic's verdict regarding OE treatment -- I'm guessing that's because there was no response to the last round of stims? Are you considering natural IVF somewhere else, or contemplating the DE option? My thought on DE has always been that, if I go that route, I will take 6 months or a year off from all fertility treatment before starting a DE cycle, since there's not the same age-related time pressure. It's all so emotionally fraught, and the idea of spending an extended period just enjoying my life and not planning for and spending gobs of money on treatment sounds heavenly. But, like you, I haven't really left the OE train yet, which means I'm hearing the ticking of my biological clock very loudly indeed.

Merlin, I think you're absolutely right about your SIL taking the spotlight off your IVF adventures. One of the issues for me is that my SIL will (for a variety of reasons) never have children, and so it's all down to my DH in terms of my in-laws ever being grandparents. They're very good about it, thankfully, and have been very understanding and supportive about our fertility issues, but what I wouldn't give for them to have a grandchild to distract them already!


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Ladies - gosh it's been busy on here! Sorry I've been a bit quiet as trying to cope with work, loss and ttc has been at least as hard as I thought it would be  

Merlin - you are such a brave lady hun   It's hard to cope with other people's seeming ease of having families....they just have no idea   Most of the time we can protect ourselves from it but when it's in your family it's pretty hard to do.....can't exactly avoid them. You're taking the right attitude in thinking how it might be positive for youand hopefully your FET willbe a success and no matter what is going on with your SIL you will be enjoying your own pregnancy  

Wayne - youre not odd to feel as you do   It's normal I think. I have a sister with a young 6 mths old son and I love them both to bits but sometimes I get upset because I think I should be experiencing what she Is   You can't help how you feel. Really sorry about your clinic too - that's a blow   if you're not ready to say goodbye to OE maybe you should look at other clinics? A lot of the foreign ones will take you when in the UK they won't....

Gail - you always have kind and supportive words hun  

Lisa - welcome to this thread   Sorry to hear you have had such an awful time. This thread is great for support as we all know the depths of loss and the terrible feeling of panic as time speeds up   Hopefully the miscarriage clinic will help but at our stage I would certainly consider going private for some further tests if funds allow. Also as with Wayne don't feel coerced into de.....if you're not ready find another clinic that will help you   Crazy is going with a Czech clinic next time and I'm at a greek one.....it doesn't need to be abroad but sometimes you find their approach more flexible.

Crazy - I'm so pleased you've had some good feedback and you're feeling positive about Reprofit   It feels good to have a plan and something to work towards doesn't it? 

KimT - welcome   I cannot believe what you have put up with and think you've done the right thing. Not easy. 

Chocolate21 - welcome too   It's the worst time of year to experience loss of a baby   when you should be celebrating hope and the joy of family all you can think of is loss   Hopefully you can find some comfort here....

Everyone else - hope you're all ok whatever you're doing  

AFM - not masses to report. The ups and downs carry on but that's just how it is   We're off to greece so I can have another hysto in a couple of weeks (I had one last year prior to ivf 2 and falling pg). And then hopefully we will do FET in end March beginning of April   It feels like a long time to wait but I know it's best to let my body try to get back to some normality....

Grey xxxx


----------



## Lisa123

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for your welcome and kind messages! This is a really supportive thread 

Greyhound - thank you for your advice  Yes I do feel like I'm being coerced into DE (even my DH is not keen on this idea), but I think you and other ladies are right: since there is not so much time pressure on DE, I might as well try one more time on OE ... for me, this year is my last year of trying and after that, it's either DE or a dog!

I am very new here and I really wish I had joined earlier... a lady on another thread just told me about taking supplements - something I didn't know about before!! I can't believe that I'm willing to spend thousands on fertility treatment and it never occurred to me to spend a few pounds on supplements!   I guess better late than never...

Merlin - very sorry to hear about your situation. I haven't got the same thing happening in my family but at work, I am surrounded by younger women who seem to get pregnant so easily! It is difficult for me everytime they announce their pregnancy or when they bring their baby into the office...this sounds bad but I cope by distancing myself from them or at least try not to get too involved, especially when I have just had a miscarriage. I think that we have to do everything we can to protect ourselves, because if we don't, nobody else will, and it will be too easy to spiral into depression. I think you are right to let the others in the family fuss over your SIL whilst you just get on with your treatment  I wish you the best! x


----------



## WayneE

Hey all,

CrazyHorse, I had no responses the stims I took in Dec but I think that's because I was on BCP to DR. Also I was on a very high dose of menopur which I later found out can fry your eggs. I changed clinic in Jan and the new one let me take 300 Menopur just as a trial. I have at the mo 3 follies but they won't collect and say this is poor result and likelyhood is I wouldn't have success with my OE. I'm still surprised they won't proceed as 3 follies is the most I've ever had. 

I suppose I might as well check out clinics abroad but I have no idea how I'm going to fund that or get the time off work. CrazyHorse are you with Reprofit in the Czech Republic? Is there a particular reason you chose that clinic over others? Grey, can I ask the same about your Greek clinic? Anyone going abroad?

Don't know if anyone was watching BBC2 Thurs evening, 'The Vikings are Coming'. It was about sperm donation. I got a bit emotional cause I was thinking when watching it was like putting faces to you guys. Especially Gemma's story. 

Hugs to all, Wayne x


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Wayne, 

Yes, I'm planning my next cycle with Reprofit, for 4 reasons:

1) They frequently do mild IVF for poor responders. Instead of acting like it's as a last resort, they consider it one of the best options for older women with low AMH. The intent is to develop only a couple of follicles per cycle and take those to egg collection, with the goal of maximising egg quality.

2) No waiting list for initial consultation and OE treatment.

3) Very reasonable prices. Lower prices make it possible for us non-independently-wealthy folks to work with the smaller numbers of eggs expected with natural and mild IVF.

4) Good reviews from other patients who have cycled with them using OE.

Brno is a pain to travel to if you're not within driving distance of Stansted or Luton, but for me the other factors outweigh the travel issues.

Obviously, I don't have a crystal ball, and I may end up not being happy with how my next treatment cycle pans out, but so far I've been favorably impressed.


----------



## WayneE

Thanks so much CrazyHorse. That would involve two flights for me but I think I might check it out. What have I got to lose? 

I was thinking of checking out Serum but apparently they close for the month of July and that's when I get my hols. 

Take care, Wayne xx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Hi Wayne - serum close in August for holidays not July....I know as I cycled later in the year there due to the holiday closure. It's quite common in Mediterranean countries.  I know of quite a few ladies current and past cyclers at serum who have long journeys due to lack of proximity to a convenient airport but they see the benefits of serum as outweighing the travel downside.

For me, I chose (and DP followed ha ha   ) serum because we wanted a more personal and tailored approach. I Felt our UK treatment had been a bit conveyor belt and I couldn't seem to find a clinic who wouldn't be the same apart from a couple of eye wateringly expensive ones in London. There was good feedback regarding serum and our telephone consult (free) was more informative and more settling than any we had had to date.  It doesn't really work out cheaper as the flights and accommodation and the other things you might be encouraged to try in your protocol means it doesn't work out cheaper but you're probably getting more bang for your buck if you know what I mean   the staff are wonderful and we wouldn't go anywhere else now....if it doesn't work with them I don't believe it will work anywhere....

Lisa - never too late to add supplements and start thinking about what you eat. Get plenty of super foods on board as they can't do any harm and might just give you a boost. If you're goimg to do supplements be aware that there is a lot of info out there and not all of it is good or reliable.....I'd start reading Rebecca Fett's it starts with the egg which is a really good book and well researched and she doesn't tell you to take umptynine magical potions  

Grey xx


----------



## Sassy-lassy

Hello everyone,

The dissertation was finally submitted last week, which means that my 'holiday' from IVF related "stuff" is now over.  

This coming week, I need to organise a FISH test for OH, as so far, we have had 6x DE cycles but have not been blessed with a take-home baby, just two failed pregnancies.  Maybe there is something wrong with the sperm that has yet to be detected.. 

I also need to take the issue of my weight in hand, as I have piled on the pounds during my infertility journey and now have about 5 stone to loose.  It is hard, as I am a big stress-eater and have been on a lot of steroids, especially over the last two years.

However, as there's nowt to be gained by negative thinking, I need to renew the elastic on my PMA pants, pull 'em up and keep going.  Maybe 2015 will be the year my life turns around.  I hope so, as I'm now trundling from my mid to late 40s and time is running out.

One of the cruelest things about my experience to date has been the gradual realisation that donor eggs are not necessarily the answer for everyone.  I was initially reluctant to go down the DE path as it wasn't really what I wanted.  Having come to terms with it however, it seems extra hard to find that for some of us, it still doesn't provide that longed for baby.

I am scared to have another treatment in case it fails, but of course, unless I try, there will never be a baby.  Does anyone else feel like this?
  
Sassy x


----------



## Guest

Hi ladies, hope you all had an ok weekend & got some positive feelings to build on this week  

Crazy sorry about the little delays you're gaving but I'm sure you're right about needing some but of time out. Not too long to go now it's feb tho  

Grey thanks so much   Not too long for you to wait either, hope the time flies for you.

Lisa thanks also   Yes vitamins is one thing you can do something about. I take loads now! At my last scan I had 2 extra follicles since the previous year, so I'm putting it down to the supplements  

Wayne sounds like you're doing lots of research too, hope it all goes well and you find a clinic that makes you happy  

Sassylassy yes I can relate to fears of starting another treatment. I was excited & feeling positive about my FET soon but my SIL pregnsncy news & fsmily dynamics has thrown it all out of the window  

Gailgegirl good luck with all your plans too   You deserve a wonderful result and I admire your perserverence  

AFM I'm still struggling with the family pregnancy news and anticipated behaviour etc   It's made the prospect of any further ivf or pregnsncy failures even more terrifying   Like many of you it feels like there's been one trial after another & so many life difficulties to overcome. Im sure I'll pull myself together soon and hopefully getting on with my FET treatment will help refocus.

Take care all xx


----------



## Guest

I hope everyone's doing ok here. It's gone a bit quiet which is hopefully a good thing. 

I've posted somewhere else today about a family problem that's got worse   My mum asked me if we could store baby furniture & cot in our house, if not for ourselves, for my brother & SIL who are now expecting agsin. This might not sound like anything much but has totally floored me today   

I can't believe how horrible my mum has been & it looks like the horrors I experienced 9 yrs ago during the last pregnancy are repeating themselves, where she totally disengaged from me, was nasty to me (altho would be very angry to even consider that said about herself) and was so obsessed with the arrival of her new grandchild. I was going through a divorce and felt totally alone. She lived just up the road but came to my house about twice in the 2 yrs I was living there. Thankfully I have my hubby now, but he is outraged too. 

My sister has managed to disconnect herself, has enough problems of her own, and doesn't want to know any of the fsmily! Does anyone else have parents that have made their life miserable? Just when you need support, I can't understand it and would want to support my child at whatever age   I'm sorry if I've posted this in the wrong place, wasn't sure where to put it.


----------



## Guest

Thank you Gail  I feel like I've lost the support of my own mother again   I feel very down about it all


----------



## CrazyHorse

I'm sorry, Merlin.    

In the somewhat distant past I've had issues with my father (wholly unrelated to infertility) that caused me to cut contact for extended periods of time until he got it together and started treating me with more respect. It was painful, but we have a much better relationship now as a result, because he knows he has to behave reasonably if he wants to be a part of my life. Fortunately, it seems that he does want me in his life.

It sounds like it might be time to quietly distance yourself from your mother and, if she asks why, tell her. Be prepared for lots of indignant recriminations and personal attacks or cutting sarcasm when you tell her how hurtful her behaviour has been, and to tell her you won't be able to speak with her until she calms down and can speak with you kindly and respectfully. Telephone calls are good for those conversations, because you can hang up when the unreasonable behaviour kicks off. But, if it were me, I would start by just avoiding her, and see if she even notices. If she doesn't, then what have you really lost?

It's terrible that you're experiencing this lack of support right now. Even if your mother is not an individual you'd choose as someone you want in your life, that doesn't make it hurt any less -- everyone desperately wants parents who love them, and it makes you feel cast adrift when a parent doesn't love you enough to treat you right, no matter what age you are.    

AFM, I am really missing my DH and having a hard time being at home alone while he's on this business trip. Thank god he's back on Sunday.


----------



## Parkin

Hello everyone *baby loss trigger*

I only did my first post to FF last week, so I'm very new, and I hope you don't mind me adding myself to this thread! I'm actually writing this from Brno airport, after a solo trip to Reprofit. They were really great, but I'm still much more fragile than I was before my beautiful boy died in April 2013. I went into premature labour at 20 weeks due to (they think) cervical insufficiency, and my tiny boy stayed with us for 4 hours and 35 minutes.

He was a natural conception when I was one month shy of 42, and now I have just turned 44. I did consider mild IVF with my own eggs, but in the 9 months it took my rubbish consultant to get back to me with scan and HSG results, time just whizzed by. So, Reprofit and donor eggs for me, if I dare. I too am really anxious about getting back on the horse, and I've never used a fertility clinic before either, let alone overseas, so it feel like a bit of a triple whammy of anxiety-inducing madness sometimes! (Plus, I do over-think the bejeezus out of everything).

For info, Reprofit seem very open to trying whatever you require, and they are honest, from what I've seen. My issue is my own, not Reprofit's; letting go of the idea of my own genes, and coming to terms with the total anonymity aspect of Czech donor eggs, and doing my best to ensure that my child is okay with that.

Enough of my ramblings. I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, as I don't have much battery left, but I will tomorrow


----------



## CrazyHorse

So sorry for your loss, parkingtonhatter.   It's no wonder you're more fragile than before.

I hope you find comfort with using donor eggs. I know what you mean about all these stressors being anxiety-inducing!


----------



## WayneE

parkingtonhatter I'm so sorry for your loss. I just can't imagine what you've been through. I have found the ladies on FF very friendly and helpful. We are all on our own journey, but together. It must have been hard going to Reprofit by yourself, you are very courageous. I take it you were there for a consultation. 

The whole DE V OE issue is one I've been struggling with too over the last few weeks. 
I've been told if you're using DE then there's not just the same rush as there is with OE so I'm taking a few months to really think it through. 

Anyway welcome to this thread. Safe journey home. 

Merlin I typed up a whole reply to you last night and then my internet went down! It is only just back up.  I wanted to tell you you are absolutely not alone. My mum and I don't have a brilliant relationship either. It has got better in recent years but it's still not the relationship I would have wished for us. She visits once a year, calls me once every few months and sends a text once a month or so. I usually visit her every other week.  

In my mid twenties, I bought my first house and she didn't come see it for 7 months even though she was in the area quite regularly. When I dated a guy she didn't like she virtually stopped speaking to me for more then a year.  It took me a long time to realise the only person who cared that I was being hurt was me. I was always so wounded. When I did stand up for myself I was told I'd changed. The only way not to get hurt was not to engage. So I cut myself off for a while. 

Don't get me wrong she's not intentionally mean. I think she's just a little self absorbed. It's all about how she feels. 

Sometimes I wonder if that's prt of the reason I didn't want children in my twenties , early thirties. I didn't want to have the same kind of relationship with my child.

I think CrazyHorse and Gailgegirl are right; maybe you should consider an honest talk with your mum. If not that then maybe a temporary distancing. 

CrazyHorse I hope your DH is home soon. I also hate leaving my DH overnight but more because I worry about him as he's diabetic. We are apart tonight too and I'll worry til he texts me in the morning that he's up. Like you Gailgegirl I didn't used to be so anxious but I worry about everything these days. I suppose it's the lack of control in one area spilling into another. 

Have a good weekend ladies, Wayne xx


----------



## Guest

Parkingtonhatter welcome   I'm so sorry about your baby boy   I lost a baby boy at 20 weeks too for similar reasons. Any time you want too talk about it let me know. I really hope this site & this group helps you with your thoughts & decisions. I wish you so much luck  

Wayne thanks such a lot for your reply, it means a lot that you took the time to write  and it's reassuring to know others have experienced similar family issues, but I'm sad you did. I think I felt the same in my 20's too, partly why I didn't have children then. I totally agree about distancing myself from my mum for a while.

Gail thanks also for your kind reply, yep sometimes we have to chsnge approach with people for our own (& sometimes their!) good. Thanks for your comments about your mum too. I tried clarifying things via text today but she has only got worse, to my DH's incredulity, so distance it is  

Crazy thanks agsin   I'm going to avoid my mum, I think its the best idea at the moment. Me & DH have discussed how to den with her behaviour in future, so I hope I can start a retraining process when I next resume contact!   I hope you can be with your DH very soon, can imagine you've missed him. 

You're lovely kind people and I appreciate it so much, thanks ladies  
I hope everyone else is ok & has a nice weekend xxx


----------



## Parkin

Crazy - thank you so much for the welcome, and for creating this thread, which I'm already liking a lot 

Wayne - Thanks for the welcome! Yes, DE definitely takes the pressure off a bit. I'm finding that the best way for me to cope as someone new all of this (DE, clinics, being a grieving nutjob), is to do it in bite-sized chunks. I did remind them a few times that not only am I new to DE, but I am also new to fertility clinics, so have no idea what protocol etc suits me, or anything about how my body responds to the drugs. 

Regarding DE vs OE: I do find it hard to let go of the idea of having my son's full biological sibling, but I have to remind myself that even if that was possible, it wouldn't be him, so perhaps it's better this way, as I'm removing the risk of comparing a sibling to the memory of my first baby. Also, there is the vanity or maybe sentimental aspect for me; rather liking the idea of seeing myself in my child, in the same way my mother, grandma and I can see a photograph of the three of us and marvel at how similar we are. Oh, I could go on an on - so many pros, cons, what-ifs, etc...

Merlin - I'm so sorry that you lost your boy too. I'd love to chat anytime, yes! I'll send you a PM  I see I'm not the only one having mother problems  My relationship with my mother and my sister has gone from very close to non-existent since my son died, which has made grieving very complicated


----------



## Guest

Hi Everyone, hope all had a good weekend.

Gailgegirl sorry to hear of your aunt's response to the loss of your twins, Sounds like you have the right attitude & understanding of the situation, but grr!   Thanks it feels such horrible timing re my mum behaving like this and now DH & me are back at work I feel quite isolated just when preparing for my FET   

Parkington glad you've found the forum   Are you back in the country now? Lack of support from family doesnt help when you're grieving I agree. Sorry you've had to put up with that too   I hope you get plenty here to make up for it! 

I had a nasty sickness/virus bug over the weekend, again not ideal when preparing for my FET but am on the mend & at work anyway. I have no idea what will happen yet.   I read Julia Indichova's book 'Inconceivable' yesterday, which is very good btw, quite encouraging, so I recommend it   Am going to see if she has a website for more info.

Hello to everyone else and bye for now, have a good Monday everyone! xxx


----------



## Parkin

Gailgegirl, thanks for the lovely post; I've got LOADS of questions, so you'll regret you ever asked! I'm very interested in what you've said about epigenetics, as I do feel quite sad at the thought of not using my own eggs ,as I'm sure everyone does. I know that I ovulate every month (sticks and temperature), and according to one consultant, I show no signs of declining fertility. BUT, my thoughts are that yes, I might be ovulating every month, but they are still 44 year old eggs, and two years is a long time once you're over 40, so even though my son was healthy when I was 42, if I continue to try naturally, I could spend years trying to catch the golden egg. And if I try own egg IVF the odds are no better than trying naturally at my age, I'm told.

SO, with all that to think about, I try to be pragmatic and think to myself that there will be many benefits to using a donor egg. One thing I do ruminate about constantly, is the anonymity thing with most overseas clinics. I just hope that my child won't end up hating me for choosing a route that gives them no way to trace their egg donor, when I start telling them about it. I hope so much that they will see it as no big deal, and it was just another nice person helping out, etc. I can see why some people choose not to tell, and in many ways it's maybe less selfish not to tell, because you have the burden (if it ever feels like that) of keeping the information from the child, and they are free from any possible upset regarding their heritage. I hope that once I have a DE child (fingers crossed), I'll be less conflicted and know which way is best for me.

Does anyone else think about it a lot, or feel uncertain about tell vs don't tell?  I'm a chronic over-thinker these days, and annoy myself no end!


----------



## Parkin

Hey Merlin - yes, got to bed at the lovely hour of 4am, after delayed flight back from Brno followed by three diversions on the A1(M) due to THREE sections of it being closed - torture, esp as I had to go to work at 8.30 the following morning. It did make me think about how I will cope with sleepless nights if I do finally get lucky and have a baby to raise! I have also sent you a couple of PMs about the TAC - if you haven't received them, maybe your inbox is full? I'm new to this board, but already my messages folder is half full, so it doesn't seem to take much


----------



## Parkin

P.s Sorry to hear about you being unwell Merlin, you poor sausage! Julia Indichova's books are great, aren't they. Her website is good too. I do feel like quite the layabout when I look at what other women do to improve their bodies and health for conception. I really need to do it though. 

When I conceived my son, I had been reading a book called The Fertility Diet by Sarah Dobbyn, which was brilliant. She was in her 40s and single and childless when she wrote it, and later on met someone and conceived naturally at 43. I don't know how much of me conceiving was pure luck and how much was following about 50% of her book. I suspect the former, but it does no harm to be healthy. 

I'm not eating at all well at the moment, and I have just moved from the overweight to the obese section of the BMI calcuator! My doctor says my body shape means this is less of a problem, but I do wonder if I ought to lose weight before doing the DEIVF, considering the massive (for me) amount of money I'll be spending. This could of course just be delaying tactics, because I'm scared!


----------



## gpk

hi all,

just wanted to say hi to you all in this thread

I have had many failed stim cycles and Its so difficult to be childless at 40's. 

feeling bit down today, after my first natural ivf scan today (day 7) and nurse said, not many follicles and they are growing ok.  Its difficult path.

thanks,


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Merlin - I can't believe what you're going through at the moment but I really believe that putting a bit of distance and being self centred is the best thing for it   You have to think of yourself and ivf is hard enough without having to deal with other people's selfish and thoughtless behaviour. Surround yourself with kindness and love.   And if you can get that from your family, so be it....you have DH and friends and all of us here  

Gail - you always write such thoughtful responses   You've been through so much yourself but still find it in yourself to give back   I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about the weight though...I've put on half a stone since the miscarriage and I Don't normally fluctuate at all....I think our bodies go through so much with ivf   I walk 6-8 miles with the dogs every day but the Wright is not shifting.....I'm having to get used to my muffin top  

GPk - welcome to the thread   I know what you mean. All the ladies on this thread never expected to be childless in their 40s but here we are struggling on   so you'll find lots of support here.  Are you doing anything different for this cycle than before? Don't be put off by the nurse....do remember its quality that counts not quantity. I know of an over 40 who had 4 day 3 embies put back.....only one took but that one is now twin boys   so it can be done   Have you posted on the over 40s cyclers thread too?

Parkington - welcome   That's a horrible experience you've been through....I cannot imagine   The awful part is at our age how we just have to keep going despite the grieving   I'm glad you've found what your way forward will be. Reprofit has got a good reputation so I'm sure you'll have a good experience  

Crazy - hope you're ok   Must be good to have DH home. How far on are you with you plans now?

AFM - off to Athens later in the week for my second hysteroscopy. This is to prepare for next cycle and just check all is ok in there post ERPC   I'm off to see the ERPC consuktant today for follow up so that will be a fun reminder   then post hysto we will get together with penny to discuss next steps and see when she thinks we can go for FET...fingers crossed for March but I'm so run down with everything I wouldn't be surprised if she says later  

Hugs to you all  

Grey xxxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, Grey, thanks for asking after me.  I'm doing much better now that DH is home. We're going to London tomorrow for a couple of days -- work for him, doing the tourist thing and seeing former colleagues for me. I'm hoping to do mild IVF on my next menstrual cycle, which should be starting around the 24th. Am waiting for confirmation from the clinic about how getting the prescriptions will work. I certainly know what you mean about not being able to shift the weight post miscarriage! I'm not gaining any, but it doesn't seem like I'm losing much either.

Parkington, I'm going with Reprofit as well (OE in my case), but haven't been to Brno yet. Not looking forward to the logistics of that journey from Edinburgh!

Hi to everybody else!


----------



## coldhandswarmheart

Hi, hope it's okay to jump onto this thread, just would be great to get your thoughts if anyone had a minute... 

last Saturday had our BFN after 2nd IVF cycle with 3 decent grade embryos put back. It's just hit me so much harder this time around and I think it's the fear I find so difficult to deal with....

I come from a large and very close family (4 siblings) all with children, 3 siblings younger than me, and our family one way or another is centred around this very child-orientated life. My parents spend their lives travelling from sibling to sibling, seeing grandchildren, talking about them, with every one really obsessing about every tiny thing about their children. It's just so hard to be be a part of and after our 2nd miscarriage last year I just decided not to force myself to be gracious and understanding any more - especially when my sisters both kept seeming to get "accidentally" pregnant....My DH now don't really go to the big family events as I just find it so hard....

I guess I have such a real fear now of never getting there...our money is really running out (we had to pay for both our cycles as NHS in our area won't treat over 40) and I just don't know which way to turn.

The other thing that keeps coming up for me is agonising over why didn't I do things differently in my 30's Why didn't someone tell me it would be so hard at this age (maybe they did?), why didn't I get rid of terrible non-committing boyfriends?, why didn't I somehow work things out better? 
In my sane moments, I realise you can't predict in life when you're going to meet the right person and it's no-one's fault. I met my DH at 36, we married at 38 and started trying straight away. He is the absolute blessing of my life, but, I don't know.. this hole in my life is just starting to make me question everything... 
Did/does anyone have counselling for this sort of thing? I feel a bit like my head is going to explode if I don't get some of this stuff of my chest. I'm not sure where to look as I think I'd feel weird discussing this type of really personal stuff with someone I didn't like....

Any thoughts gratefully received and masses of love and hugs to all you amazing ladies that still manage to put one foot in front of the other every day - no-one know what it's like unless they've been there....
xxxx


----------



## Guest

Hi everyone, hope you're all ok.

Jlb hello and welcome   I'm really sorry about you bfn   I could relate to so much of your post & nearly felt like crying at reading about how you've felt in your family with grandchildren & grandparents etc, against the backdrop of mcs & no children yet. It's a bit of an issue for me too at the moment. I've also had some of those thoughts re past relationships & timing! I've had so many dreams recently about exes, waking up feeling really annoyed!   I've had some counselling and actually just found a new lovely older lady which is a Godsend at the moment with hsving just cut off contact from my mum   If you find someone you have a good rapport with it can be a big help, just to offload! If not, keep looking til you do   Sending you huge good wishes anyway & I hope this forum helps  

Crazy I hope you have a lovely time in London, sounds fun! I also have struggled with losing the weight since my pgs, ivf & mcs! I then put on an extra few pounds on holiday but managed to lose those again in a few days, very odd  

Grey thanks for being so kind,   I really can't understand it and feel   Its a relief to know others can understand how I feel. Such bad timing to have to stop contact with my mum just before my FET, but hopefully it won't affect it too much. I hope all goes well in Athens and you can make the most of it. I felt run down too last year after the antibiotics from EC and then mcs. Hope you're looking after yourself & feel perky soon  

GPK wishing you all the best and I hope your follicles pick up. Good luck with your treatment cycle  

Gail it sounds like you've put a lot of thought into the DE issues and I agree that people should be able to make their own minds up about those things, preferably coming from a place of love   I will be pounding my exercise bike this week too  

Parkington thank you I did get the TAC PM   & replied - will check it sent ok and if my inbox needs pruning! I always feel sad deleting the messages   I hope you don't have jet lag. I was worried about that when we went on hol last month but it was ok. Thanks I'm feeling mostly better now (just swollen glands lol). I will look up Sarah Dobyn book too. 

I've got my Floridix iron liquid & green powder to have now, the things we put ourselves though! Hello to anyone else I've missed xxx


----------



## AnnieHoo

Oh thank goodness for this thread! This is where I belong! 

I've been following your diary *Crazyhorse* and willing it to go well for you. I was at Spire Edinburgh too.

It's such a hard struggle and this thread seems like a wonderful support.

I'm waiting to find out of FET worked in the next few days but don't feel hopeful at all and need to think about the next steps.

My AMH is 14.5 which suggests I have above average ovarian reserve but that's no good if they're all poor quality. I'd rather not keep having miscarriages thanks!

I don't know whether to give IVF one more try in the hope that putting 2 back in will up my chances or if it's better to keep going naturally every month. I always feel like the IVF preparation months are such a waste it gets me down.

It's so hard. I seem to be toughening up though as the years go on and getting nearer and nearer to accepting it's not meant to be. I REALLY want a baby though and that acceptance is fickle.

For now I just have to hope that my little embryo will implant in the next couple of days.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thank you, Annie, that's so sweet.   I really, really hope your FET does the trick.

Have you been referred to a recurrent miscarriage clinic? If the FET doesn't work (but let's hope it does!) and you're willing to pony up the money yourself in order to avoid the wait, you can self-refer and pay out of pocket for the blood tests at bluehorizonmedicals.co.uk -- it's about £700 for the Recurrent Miscarriage Profile (clotting and immune disorders), and about £600 for an NK cytotoxicity assay. I'm planning to have the blood work done at Reprofit in Brno when I go there for EC, because it's so much cheaper there, but you *can* have it done here without waiting to go through a clinic.

On my upcoming cycle, Reprofit are planning to treat empirically for immune issues even before we get my blood work back, due to my history of allergies, asthma, eczema, and ME. I don't want to use Humira, due to the potential for serious side effects, but the plan is 5 mg of prednisone per day starting on Cycle Day 1, plus an intralipids infusion on Cycle Day 10. I don't know if my miscarriage was caused in part by immune issues, but I wouldn't be surprised -- I'll feel better having prednisone on board just in case. (I know from taking steroids for asthma previously that I tolerate them well, and in fact feel much better when taking them.)

If I were in your shoes, I would check the clotting factor and immune issues before doing another round of IVF, plus take CoQ10 for a couple of months to improve egg quality. (For CoQ10, I've seen people take anywhere from 100 mg / day to 600 mg / day; I'm on 400 mg / day myself.) Finding clinics in Scotland that will treat immune issues is tough, as there's not a lot of high-quality statistical evidence yet to show improved outcomes -- this is one of many reasons why I'm going abroad for the next round.


----------



## AnnieHoo

Hi Crazyhorse and thank you so much for getting back so quickly.

Yes I was very fortunate and my NHS ob/gyn sent by bloods away for recurrent miscarriage tests anticoagulation, antithrombin 111 , Factor V Leiden gene, Factor 11 Prothrombin gene, Lupus Anticoagulant, Anticardiolipin, Chromosome Analysis. All came back OK. 

I've tried to be methodical about test results when they come back so I can eliminate all the possibilities. So far they've all come back 'OK' and infertility 'unexplained' The reason I have currently accepted in my mind is "depreciated chromosome quality due to age or chromosomes not aligning in the way they should at the exact time of conception". That sentence actually gives me comfort because there is nothing I can do about, it's just nature.

I haven't had the NK cells test done but I remember Googling my way out of doing it, I'll need to look at that again. 

Yes, I took 600mg a day of CoQ10 before egg collection and do believe it helped my egg development. I had 8 eggs collected, 6 fertilised but only 3 viable embryos. I was very happy with that result but my embryos didn't implant after the fresh cycle so I was disappointed and I'm preparing for the same again.

The more i get into this the more convinced I am that I should give it one more try. Dr Thong will refer me to ACU at Edinburgh Infirmary. I would go abroad, mainly because you can transfer 3 embryos, but DH said no so I think ERI is the only chance now. I'm hoping that we can get on with it straight away as self-funding. It will be a royal pain in the backside if I have to get all the tests done again.


----------



## Parkin

Gailgegirl, I've read your message about donor eggs and anonymity a few times now, because it's very interesting! I have a research background, and I've also thought to go with the evidence-based research, but I'm also aware that it's very difficult to really have any evidence-based conclusions for the other option, if that makes sense! 

What you say about having time is reassuring, what with it being a few years before you can really talk to the child about it.

I'm at work at the moment, so I won't ramble on, but I'm really grateful for your thoughts on this


----------



## daisyg

Hello,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I just wanted to let you know that BICA (British Infertility Counselling Association) has a list of counsellors all over the UK who are trained to help people going through the pain of infertility and all issues relating to fertility and of course the impact it has on us and our relationships.

Here is a link:-

http://www.bica.net/directory

Kindest wishes to all of you.

Daisy xxx

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## CrazyHorse

Gail, it's good to hear that you're finding being open about your infertility struggles is making it easier for you. I've been fairly open with my immediate family and close friends, and for me that has been a good course of action. It made it more difficult in some ways to deal with the miscarriage, because there were more people we had to talk about it with, but overall it has made things much easier for me. I don't like feeling as though there's a huge part of my life that I can't discuss with the people I love, and I knew there was no way I could go through multiple rounds of IVF keeping it a secret. Of course, it really depends on how the people in your life are likely to react. I've been fortunate that everyone's been quite supportive, but I guess my feeling on disclosure was that, if someone was going to be hugely insensitive about it, I'd rather have that revelation and then limit my time with that person. (Minor insensitivity I can take in my stride; it's a tough topic for people for talk about, and even with the best of intentions, people won't always hit the right note.)

Grey, I really hope your hysto gives you the all-clear and everything looks good. Fingers crossed for you.  

Hi to all the other ladies!


----------



## Parkin

jlb - I'm exactly the same, with regard to looking at the past and wishing I hadn't started trying to get pregnant when I first wanted to, i.e over 15 years ago! When I talk about it, people tell me, quite rightly, that I did what felt right at the time, be it waiting for a partner to be 'ready', having a break-up, etc etc. And it's true, but this time pressure is a killer!

gail - Yes, you're quite right; I've just been reading your brilliant blog, and I hope so much that you get to have a little one, after what you have been through. You are an inspiration to this borderline hysterical IVF first-timer, and I'm so grateful for your generosity in giving advice to people whilst going through it all yourself.


----------



## coldhandswarmheart

Thank you all so so much for your amazingly lovely responses to my ranting! And thank you also for the heads up on the counselling/CBT, I'll definitely have a look into that, although it's another expense to add to the slowly dwindling pot at the moment, but I guess it'll be worth it to just get my head straight.....

I have to share with you ladies - who are are the ONLY ones who will understand this - something hilarious (if  it wasn't so    hideous) that happened to me yesterday:

Talking of family/insensitivity/people having no clue WHATSOEVER - I had an email yesterday from my S-I-L who lives abroad with my brother and 3 children (all of who she had very easily) and who hasn't ever got in touch with me re anything of all of this before ever. Nothing. Not even wishing me luck, seeing how I am, nada - and obviously she's known about it all as I'm really close to my brother, but we've never spoken about anything to do with it ever before and I've never really wanted to as we're just not that close...
Bearing all of this in mind, she sent me an email yesterday (2 pages) in which she told me (4 days after my BFN from 2nd IVF) in no uncertain terms, "not to worry" - 4 of her friends are all adopting and it's the best thing they ever did. Also, that I shouldn't "attach myself too much to the idea of having my own genetic children". Amazing. I genuinely didn't know whether to laugh or cry. So then I cried for about 2 hours and then I just got really really angry. I know, I know, I'm sure she thinks she's being helpful, but PLEASE!!!!!Why do people insist, time and time again,  on giving advice on a situation about which they know nothing? It's SO weird. 
Anyway, sorry, am over it now, but just had to share!
x


----------



## CrazyHorse

People who have their own genetic children, and people who don't want children at all, really need to STFU about adoption when talking to people who are struggling with infertility. Adoption *is* a great option for some infertile people. It is *not* a great option for many infertile people (including me). Adoption is a complex, difficult, and often heart-wrenching undertaking that is completely different from having your own genetic child or a DE/DS/DD child. 

I had one friend (who is childless by choice) ask me last year "Why not adopt?", and my response was "Because I don't want to." That pretty much shut that avenue of inquiry down, thank goodness. In her case, I can forgive it, because she has been a really great friend, and she really wants me and my DH to be successful with our IVF treatments. But the cluelessness involved *still* kind of annoys me when I think about it, and that was pretty much the best case scenario for how that conversation could go. 

Anyway, I COMPLETELY understand why you're annoyed with your SIL!


----------



## AK2014

Hi Jib,I completely agree with you. like you say people think they are trying to help but seriously would they be able to do the same if they were in our shoes?! People just don't think before they speak. Very annoying I know. Even my friends have suggested that Several times to me when I finally had to tell them I am not ready to adopt. I am not ready to have someone else's child and learn to love it. It will only make us both miserable and for starters they won't give us children when we are not ready. People really don't know what a long drawn process it is. People are just so bloody stupid. Don't mind your SIL. She doesn't know what she is talking about. Big hugs
S xxx


----------



## Parkin

I agree with all of you about adoption, and whilst I haven't ruled it out, you're right, there is so much ignorance around. You might find useful the phrase 'therapeutic parenting' when dealing with people telling you why not adopt, like it's so easy. I learned about it from a woman I met who has adopted three children. She said that you have to parent in a completely different way, with therapeutic parenting, and it's essential to do it that way because it is a rare occurrence that an adopted child is without trauma and huge issues. It's a vocation I think, and only for people who are ready and able to parent in this way.


----------



## coldhandswarmheart

EXACTLY! Thank you all. I was beginning to think it was just me being irrationally angry because of these hormones....

I totally agree re the whole adoption thing. Of course I get that it's right for some people and their own circumstances and of course it is a completely individual decision. But I suppose what got me most about my SIL comments was the fact that she seemed to think it was some sort of obvious quick fix solution, like I was going to turn around and say "oh thanks so much, I never would have thought of that without you"!!!!. I have to say the more I think about it she is sadly one of those people who is always the expert on everything, so it kind of follows, I guess I just assumed with this there would be a tiny bit more sensitivity....

I agree it's an incredibly complex issue and like you CrazyHorse, it's just not something my husband and I want to do, personally. It's just not a quick fix issue in any sense. We're incredibly lucky that he has great swimmers (!) so if push comes to shove, and I don't think we're quite there yet, we'll definitely go with DE I think, and as I don't seem to have any other underlying issues (everything crossed/hoping I'm not being presumptuous/tempting fate) we're fairly hopeful that would work for us.

Thanks so much for your support ladies and making me feel less bonkers
Hugs to all 
xxxxxx


----------



## Guest

Hello everyone 

I hope you're all looking after yourselves or being looked after well this weekend  

Hello Anniehoo, I hope your embies are snuggling in nicely!   My FET transfer is this month too. Sounds like you've been thinking about plans which can help I think. I've heard a lot of good things about CoQ10, been taking it myself too. I had 6 fertilised last year also, from 7 eggs collected and like you've ive been concerned about quality issues! Good luck   

Parkington I found the idea of 'therapeutic parenting' very interesting, sounds spot on to me. I know all children are different & have different needs, whether biological or adopted, but I do think that is a helpful approach.

Gail thank you yes I felt more settled after having a week's distance and have found it is a good time to make some changes in myself, parent relationships and quite a few things, so all ultimately for the good I think. Not quite sure how to manage the transition of talking to my mum normally agsin but will figure it out I'm sure. I agree with therapists thst it depends on the person. Some very qualified people can still be cold & clinical, but you also need someone who knows what they're doing! Sending a squishy hug back   

Daisy good idea with the link, very helpful suggestion  

Crazy I liked your thoughts about disclosure & telling people about infertility etc, I agree it depends on who they are/the circumstances, but sometimes it's easier having things out in the open than having a big secret, even if some people react insensitively - it's possible to then ignore or keep distance from those particular ones. 

Jlb sorry about your SIL, Grr!   Yes can relate   I've felt very hurt at times when I've had adoption suggested to me, altho I do feel sad for the children in that position, sometimes perceived as not as good as ones living with biological parents, that upsets me too. Not that I have any experience, but it's just how it makes me feel. I do want to give birth to a living baby but wouldn't mind adopting after that. So I kind of feel in the middle of both sides of the adoption debate. 

AK yes I wish people would be more sensitive & consider each other's feelings too! It's hard when you're in this position   I'm glad this forum exists  

AFM I'm plodding along and having oestrogen tablets at the moment for my FET later this month. Seems to be giving me spots!    Just trying to take one day at a time and looking forward to tonight's Valentine's meal, yum!  

Sending a big group hug xxx


----------



## AnnieHoo

Hi ladies and thanks for the welcome. 
Little FrostieHoo did implant and I had a lovely pink line on Wed and Thursday using a FRER but it started to fade away and now it's disappeared altogether. Beta was meant to be yesterday but I can't get a nurse appt until wednesday so will wait until then. But I know it's not worked. Is this what they call a chemical? 

So sad it hasn't worked. I'm certain its a quality issue. Above av. reserve but they're all poor quality :  (.
Will have a break and then think of next steps. Not sure whether to do IVF again or try naturally once decapeptyl injection wears off in a couple of month (bummer). x


----------



## Guest

I'm sorry to hear that Annie   I hope your beta gives you a nice surprise though. It's good that you're thinking of next steps. Tough tough journey this is   xx


----------



## AnnieHoo

I'm just going for the beta result because the clinic need it. I know it's over. Good luck with your FET merlin I hope you find a good one! 

I am battling with sadness today just keep crying and trying to future out if I should do another round of ivf. My clinic is shutting down so id have to start again somewhere else. The decapeptyl contraceptive won't wear off for I months so I can't ttc naturally anyway. Why didn't they consider this??

I said I was going to have a break but really I'm getting sadder and sadder thinking it's over . it's not looking good at all. 

I looked up clinics abroad so I could get 3 embryos put back and up the chances of a good one but then I go round in circles thinking maybe it's better if we just try every month. I could try and get prescribed some more clomid or something else to stimulate my ovaries 

I'm upset and know I'm not thinking straight. This is so hard. I wish there was a professional we could get advice from instead of googling. My private ivf consultant just went through the motions he was really good and I had every confidence in him I just wish I could say to him "what should we do?" But I know they can't answer that. my nhs ob/gyn told me to pray for a baby! He was useless.

Is there some Harley street expert who can help? Or is the clinic in Athens the answer? I'm desperate. I'm ashamed to say I ordered clomid off an American website but was petrified it was something nasty so fessed up to my DH and binned it. It's no wonder that we are driven to this though.


----------



## AnnieHoo

Sorry. That last post was clearly an irrational breakdown! There are just no answers to some things so have to go through this x


----------



## Guest

Totally understandable Annie   I'm sure there will be info on here & people who can offer suggestions that will help. I'm sorry I don't know about the contraception you mentioned. But clinic & consultant info is here for definite, so keep asking   I'm sure other ladies in this thread will have ideas too.

Having a good cry can be healing & help release emotion, just like having support & some plans can keep you motivated & keep you going   

Hope you have a bette day tomorrow xxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Annie - sorry to read you got what looks like a chemical   I think we all get the desperation you feel hun   It's normal as time marches on to feel irrational and in a panic   all you can do is try to arm yourself with information and do the next thing and keep on keeping on   We are all at different stages on this thread but we have age, loss and that need in common so ask your questions and if we can someone will answer  

Re clinics abroad, I'm a fan and so are several other ladies on here. Several like the Czech clinics and I'm with one of the Greek clinics. We all prefer the fact they are open to trying new things and that we can feel like we get to throw everything at the cycle.....at our age you don't want to feel like you didn't get to try something.

Look after yourself hun, lick your wounds and hopefully find the strength to plan next steps  

Merlin - how you feeling sweetie?  

Grey xxx


----------



## WayneE

Oh Annie I feel your misery. When you're just coming off a negative cycle the pain can be unbearable. I too have just wanted someone to tell me exactly what to do and where to do it. I hate all this googling. I've tried to stay off the intervener this last few weeks because my head was just fried but I get sucked back in because time is marching on and if I'm doing nothing I'm annoyed with myself for being no further on. DH just says 'we'll do whatever you want to do'. Which is lovely but put the decision making back on me. 

I'm still at sea since my clinic closed the door on using OE. I do know for sure adoption is not on the cards. I'm really struggling with the concept of DE. I think I'm leaning towards one more go with OE and then closing the door on me ever having my own child. I have yet to decide on a clinic. Do I spend £8000 on one go at CRGH who have a 30% success rate in my age bracket or go abroad where it's cheaper and maybe get two goes for the same money. Don't know if I have time for 2 goes. Also logistically abroad is harder as there are no direct flights from here so that would mean two flights. I'm not afraid to fly; it's just more difficult especially if I have to bring DH who has disabilities. Also there's the language barrier. 

Hope you all had a great Valentines Day. I was on a hen do and got to watch a video of a pregnant lady's 4 month scan. Brilliant. Just what I needed after buying pressies, wrapping and writing cards for 2 newborns of work friends this week. 

Hugs to all, Wayne x


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Ouch WayneE   Not what you needed re the hen do  

Grey xx


----------



## AnnieHoo

Thank you so much for your responses you have really made me feel so much better  

WayneE that hen do sounds so bad. "Yeah! Let's celebrate with a video of someone else's uterus!". Nothing is sacred these days.

It's so difficult weighing up the options. And it think because my clinic is closing down at the end of this month it makes it seem like doors are closing fast.

DE does seem to be the most popular next step at this stage and much better chances. I think I would do this but I'm not sure. It's out for us as DH said no. He's is v easy going about anything else but mainly wants to keep trying naturally and is convinced this will work. 

I'm going to have another look at the greek clinics and see how easy they are to get to from Scotland. We live in the Scottish isles so it takes time to travel to the mainland first and that is an added cost. I can't see it happening. 

Today I feel quite calm. I think it's time to stop trying so desperately, ttc naturally for another year, see what happens and then just be happy with what life has given me. 

Yesterday I was completely in a panic though and needed someone to tell me what to do to stop the ruminating. Being 'at sea' is how it feels and yes panic is well and truly set in. I've been going round and round in circles like this:

-> "Yes I'm going to try one more IVF cycle"
->"No, I think there's a waiting list at Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and I can't find another clinic we could get easily in Scotland"
-> I'll go to that place in Greece where you can get 3 embryos put in.
-> DH will never agree to go to Greece.
->"But I'll lose a month or two preparing for treatment..
-> It's just time I need. I need to keep getting pregnant and going through miscarriages until I find that good egg"
->"Hmm.. that hasn't worked for me before.."
->"I could adopt a lovely two year old and would cherish them and be so happy"
->"What if they have profound issues I can't cope with..?"
->"We could be happy just being a couple.."
->"I'll get a puppy, that would make me happy"
->"I'll get a puppy and keep trying naturally"
->"But I'll have to stop ttc in a year when I'm 42.5 because I don't want to give birth at 44.."
->REPEAT AD INFINIUM


----------



## Parkin

AnnieHoo

Your ruminations really resonate with me; I can't even remember a time when I was fully occupied with something other than this whole issue. It's bloody exhausting. So, if it's the slighted comfort to know that you're not alone, here's an example of the contents of my head:

"It's much more sensible to go with donor eggs"
"But what if, just around the corner, there is that perfect egg of mine, about to pop out and be successfully fertilised"
"That's SO unlikely"
"But if it happened, I would have the full sibling of my poor baby who was born prematurely. How lovely would that be?"
"Really lovely, but what if it never happens, and then before I know it, I'm too old to try donor eggs"
"Maybe just having a break from it all would be best, for the sake of my sanity and everyone around me"
"You could, if you were 10 years younger, but you don't have the luxury of time"
"What if a donor child hates me when it's older, if I use anonymous donor eggs?"
"You can't afford UK treatment, so you have no choice"
"Maybe you don't even really want a child that badly; you're just fixated on the idea. There are other ways to feel fulfilled"
"Hmm... *switches on Midsomer Murders and eats some chocolate*
"Oh yes, that will sort EVERYTHING"
... and on, and on, and on.....


----------



## AnnieHoo

thanks Parkin. It is a comfort! sorry! And yes, it's exhausting all this. 

If forgot about this one, one of yours that pops up with me too, it's an interesting one that possibly doesn't get enough air time..

"Maybe you don't even really want a child that badly; you're just fixated on the idea. There are other ways to feel fulfilled"


----------



## CrazyHorse

It's so lovely to read other people's obsessive internal soundtrack!    I'd rather none of us had these thoughts running on loop in the background, but since we do it's nice to know we're not alone.

Here's my usual set of background thoughts:

"Maybe if I just stopped the IVF madness, I'd somehow get pregnant naturally. Maybe the last 6 years are just bad luck, now that I've had a miscarriage my body will be ready to get pregnant now."

"I've got to start the next IVF cycle as soon as possible, time is running out. I'll be 41 soon, this is the last year I can realistically try with my own eggs. No point after turning 42." 

"Didn't women regularly get pregnant in their mid-40s in the days before reliable birth control? Why am I arbitrarily giving up on my own eggs at 42?"

"Clearly I am insane, donor eggs are the only sensible option after I turn 42." 

"But I don't wanna! This may be the only grandchild my parents ever have, I want it to share their genes!"

"Well, you don't have to tell anyone you're using donor eggs. And your parents would be delighted with ANY grandchild, no matter whose genes it had."

"Yes, but they'd be more delighted if it was THEIR grandchild."

"It would be their grandchild, idiot. Because it would be YOUR baby."

"But what if my immune issues cause me to miscarry every pregnancy I ever have? What if I can't stay pregnant even with donor eggs?"

"Well, I *could* consider adoption."

"But you and DH have already been over this ground thoroughly and ruled out adoption for many valid reasons. Don't torment yourself over this."

"Why am I obsessing over having a kid? I was perfectly fine with the idea of never having a kid until DH and I got married. What is my problem?"

"Oh God, I'm never going to to have a baby."

AND repeat. Ad infinitum.


----------



## AnnieHoo

Oh my goodness these are so therapeutic! Thank you so much for sharing  
So many points resonating here I'm welling up. 

We are not alone in our madness!


----------



## Parkin

AnnieHoo - yes, it's an interesting one, isn't it. This is an extreme example, but I read an article online recently about people terminating IVF pregnancies (VERY rarely), because it was only then that they realised they didn't want a family after all. I can't find the proper article, only a hideous Daily Mail version, but the same quote is used:

" But Ann Furedi, head of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, said that some women could become so caught up in the IVF process that the realities of motherhood did not hit until they conceived.

She said: 'For infertile people, overcoming the problem becomes a goal in itself.

'Sometimes it is only when women get pregnant that they can allow themselves to ask the question about whether it is what they really want or not.' "

What a nightmare _that_ would be. I was the other way around really, because I got pregnant naturally, never imagining for a second that it would work at age 42, panicked my way through 20 weeks of pregnancy, and then gave birth prematurely to my sweet boy, who I loved utterly. I can relate to the "'For infertile people, overcoming the problem becomes a goal in itself" part of the quote though, as I spend _so_ much time thinking about it all.

Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish my true gut feeling with feelings that I have unconsciously taken on from social convention, the media, etc.

However, (and I think this is important) one thing that makes us different from people who get pregnant early on in life, without trying, is that we are subjecting the idea of having a child to intense scrutiny, whereas to the majority, having children is just an automatic thing, and they don't have to think 'how much do I want this?'. I envy that; procreating on a more primitive level!

Crazyhorse, I often think of your:

"Didn't women regularly get pregnant in their mid-40s in the days before reliable birth control? Why am I arbitrarily giving up on my own eggs at 42?"

My partner was at a Catholic school, where there were masses of large families, and the youngest child was often born when the mother was 46+. My next thoughts, when I have the same one as you, are: "If we choose to continue naturally, it might well happen, but if it doesn't, donor egg IVF has incrementally lower success rates after age 45. What do I want more? Better chances of success with DE and me being a bit younger as a parent, or my own eggs and being (potentially) a few years older?"

AND THEN MY HEAD EXPLODES ALL OVER THE CARPET ......


----------



## AnnieHoo

Oh Parkin i'm so sorry you had to go through losing your son at 20 weeks. You must still be in shock from what you've been through. You are so strong, it must have been terrible. 

I find the ruminating over IVF / next steps has taken over my life now. I can't focus on work at all and worry that I'm going to get caught doing nothing all day. I'm not interested in anything else except getting pregnant and find it annoying when someone (DH usually) interrupts my thoughts. I know I need counselling.

And yet when I stop, I do have those moments where I'm lifted out of my current state and I think "Hold on. Do I really want to actually give birth? Do I want to be 60 when my child turns 18?". I'm not sure if I do. Maybe it's my hormones today!


----------



## Parkin

It truly was my worst nightmare, AnnieHoo. I feel tremendous amounts of guilt and regret that my body was the cause (weak cervix). He was perfectly healthy, and was with us for a whole 4 hours 35 minutes. I can't even round that up or down, to 4 or 5 hours, as his time here is so important to me.

For quite a while, I was fixated on having his full sibling, but I've managed to adjust my expectations, as all of us have in many ways. I know he will never be replaced, so perhaps having a child who is not genetically linked to me will be good in a way, and not make me think "my first born might have looked like this/been like that" etc etc. 

I won't go on and on, but suffice to say, his birth and death have had a massive impact on my life. Like you, I sometimes think counselling or some sort of self-help would be good for me in some ways, because (also like you) I am so rarely 'in the moment'. Whatever I am doing, all the usual thoughts are running alongside. I have a book on mindfulness, but I haven't managed to read it yet, because, yes, you've guessed it, my mind is incapable of fully absorbing itself with the task in hand! Someone needs to write a small pamphlet called 'how to achieve just enough mindfulness ability to read a mindfulness book'!


----------



## Parkin

gailgegirl - The standard, hideous, usual thing that is said about CI (or IC, depending on whether you'd rather be incompetent or insufficient!) is that it's impossible to diagnose until you've lost a child in that mid-trimester period. However, I think that you can have a 'cervical resistance study' via hysteroscopy, but I don't know how that would sit with what you've said about your innards (!)

I would imagine that you could insist on a TVC at 13 weeks. An emergency cerclage later on has a much lower success rate, because obviously the cervix has already started dilating. If I had the money, and was thinking the way you are this minute (I know all our thought processes change all the time, so this is just in relation to how you feel just now), I would go for regular scans from 16-24 weeks (ish) to check that there was no shortening of the cervix happening, and then if there was, you could have a cerclage before it got to the emergency stage. Then, once you get past 24 weeks, and the baby is big enough to distribute its weight more evenly and therefore no longer have whole weight pushing on your cervix, you could relax.

OR (just thought of this one) - get yourself referred to Nick Wales at Chelsea & Westminster and tell him your complete history and worries, and see what he recommends. You'll get the most well-informed answer you could wish for from him. Or even just email him with all your info, in the first instance, and see what he says. PM me if you want his email address


----------



## AnnieHoo

Oh Parkin I feel for you so much and hope that you will be in the right place one day to work through it all with a counsellor. I hope that for myself too but I'm putting it off until I really have to...

I think I have that book! I really like it, is it the Mindfulness one "mindfulness: a practical guide to finding peace in a frantic world"? I worked with it for a while, trying to live in the moment more but I'm not in the right place right now after the failed IVF and keep wanting to skip to the section on infertility then remember it's not a book about infertility! 

I phoned Edinburgh Royal Infirmary ACU and there is no waiting list so at least I've achieved something today. Beta tomorrow although I haven't seen a BFP since thursday so it's likely to be 0.1 or something. I believe this is a chemical. So sad


----------



## Guest

Hi ladies  
I found the obsessive thought self conversations very funny, I'm glad it's not just me then   I won't add another in case mine goes in for a few pages!

Parkin I'm so sorry and agree about how such a loss changes your life. Let's make sure we're also changed/changing for the better somehow, to honour our babies and those to come  

Gail I agree if you have CI concerns best person to see is Mr Wales. I will be having a stitch in my next pregnsncy too. For me I couldnt risk fortnightly scans and Nick Wales told me the cervix can open even a tiny bit which could cause infection   I'm sure for most people it isn't an issue, but I can't take the risk. All the best with your immune tests, sounds a good idea too.

Annie nice to hear about Mindfulness, I do think thst is the way forward!  

My FET is taking longer than I thought with a lot more scans, thanks to a possible follicle trying to grow! I guess that wouldn't have happened if I'd been down regulated but apparently it's not a problem (just a hassle work wise organising things!) 

Hi to anyone else reading xx


----------



## Guest

So sorry Annie if it is a chemical   xxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Hello ladies

I've so enjoyed the familiar themes going on in our internal dialogues   it's that feeling of being slightly unhinged which is so unnerving, isn't it? A feeling of apartness which other people not on this journey or not at our stage just don't get   I think it's natural for us to worry about it all.....in this era of choice as well, I think the volume of choices available to us makes the soundtrack even louder in our heads. I can't remember if one of you said it already but 30-40 years ago we likely wouldn't even have the internal dialogue. We would have had our children in our 20s having married the first vaguely suitable man who came along. If we then didn't hsve children there would have been no options (other than adoptions) and so we would have either adopted or "made the best" of things and had a different life.  I'm so grateful we have all the choices we have today but jeez with choice comes complication  

Someone else here - Annie? - said they also worried about being caught out at work. I'm sure most of us do that. The inability to concentrate on a particular task for more than a few minutes is frightening but also disabling.....my output at work has become extremely reactive. I get through the work I have to, it's my job, but where I fall down is on being more proactive and that's because I don't really have a space in my head which is free of infertility / ivf noise where I can work on being proactive and adding value    

Having said that, if I was researching a new supplement or reading a new ivf book, I woukd literally devour the book and get through it in no time. I would spend my evenings collating information from different sources on that supplement....I have a library of information here to prove it  

I become fearful when I consider how things will be if our journey ends childless  . We've always approached our infertility with the view that we will try everything until there isn't anything left because we don't want to look back and regret not trying. But what if we look back and regret not using this time and money for other experiences - travelling, playing sports, going to the theatre all of which are things we love which currently take a back seat.....

And then I just think of our potential baby's face - who they might be, what they might look like, what foods they will/won't like, what they will enjoy in life and I really can't think of anything else or any other way I'd like to spend this time or this money. That I can take the way the meds make me feel emotionally and physically.  Whatever the outcome of our journey, DP and I have to give that potential person every chance to come into this world.....


----------



## Guest

Hi Grey, I agree it's natural for us to worry and there's bound to be more pressure for us at this stage. I have those same fearful thoughts about what if things don't work out, but also wouldn't not give ivf a go for the world. I'm off work this week but normally all this stuff does permeate into my mind a lot of the time too when I'm there! If I'm in meetings or am talking to a client or colleagues I'm ok, but it's when driving or doing admin that I struggle to fight it off sometimes! I hope you have a positive week  

My frozen transfer is tomorrow and I've been going a bit bananas   It's so hard not to be desperately attached to the outcome and not to worry about the worst that could happen! After 3 pregnsncy losses including my 5 month one and then 2 chromosome problems, it's hard not to. Meanwhile my SIL in her 20's will no doubt sail thru her pregnsncy, the scans of which are already all over ******** apparently   I invited my own sister who is 32 for a birthday meal/day out this week and she told me she doesn't know what she's doing yet and will let me know. I thought I coukd treat her and it would be nice for me to have her company during my 2ww but never mind!   I sometimes feel like the world is full of selfish self obsessed people and then wonder if I am too!   I'll be glad to have moved to a different phase in my life that's for sure  

Hope everyone's ok and you all have a good week   xx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Just a quickie to say best of luck to Merlin for tomorrow's FET   I know it has seemed a long way off at times but now it's here   Keeping everything crossed for you for your golden embie hun  

Grey xxxxxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Wishing you lots of luck with your FET, Merlin!  

AFM, I had a bad spell last night and melted down after going out for dinner. I've been feeling really stressed lately from a combination of work stuff and personal stuff and IVF stuff, and just became overwhelmed with grief about everything that's gone wrong and that I've had to give up over the last few years. Ended up sobbing noisily into DH's shoulder while standing in a closed shop doorway off a busy street. I'm just glad no random strangers stopped to ask if I was OK!

I've been doing as well as can be expected after the miscarriage, but I've really had to dig deep into my personal reserves to keep going and, on many days, to get anything done at all. Not that there haven't been quite a few good days in the last 7 weeks, but there have been many when even the smallest decisions and activities feel like climbing a mountain. I keep wondering when I get back to the good part of my life, you know? The one where I feel like a confident and capable woman who knows where her life is going and is doing worthwhile things and is making a contribution to her family's well-being.

I'm sure some of the wallowing is hormonal. I have had light brown spotting for a couple of days, which is my usual precursor to my period, and then last night I had a small amount of red blood, so I went to bed with a sanitary pad in place, expecting to wake up in full flow this morning. Aaaaaand.... nothing. I'm desperately wanting to get this cycle underway, and at the same time dreading the logistical challenges and the emotional roller coaster, and wondering how on earth I will cope with a BFN. Urgh.


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Hi Crazy

If it makes you feel any better, I'm much the same   I was  really sorry to read you are feeling so low.....the trying to be ones normal self is the thing I am struggling with too, and that loss of sense of what is now normal and what is not can be really overwhelming   I cry for no apparent reason sometimes.....I think it's hormones and sheer frustration. I've got poor body image now too which makes me feel very low. Stupid in the scheme of things but that's how it is  

I don't know what to suggest except to keep on plodding on.  I keep hoping if I just keep trying to behave as if everything is ok, eventually it WILL be ok  . Don't know.....if anyone else has any great ideas I'm listening too!

Anyway, I'm thinking of you   Try not to be too hard for yourself....it's an emotionally and physically tough time and I don't think we can expect to just bounce back.....you'll get there eventually   

Grey xxx


----------



## AnnieHoo

Good luck with your FET tomorrow Merlin I hope it all goes smoothly and quickly for you.  


Oh ladies I am in EXACTLY the same place. I had a meltdown last night too, a silent screaming meltdown with tears gushing and then cried myself to sleep so much the tears were welling up in my ears!! Crying is so good for you though, far better to let it out.

I can't wait to get these hormones out of my body. The result of my beta was 0.1. AF arrived on saturday. I now have a very heavy period with large clots which is to be expected after taking progesterone pessaries for so long.

I am so looking forward to building up my confidence and self esteem and becoming the person I used to be.

I feel a confessional coming on....

I have been putting everything on hold until I have a baby.  
I have minimised my RL world so much it's just me, DH and my mum. 
I see my boss once a fortnight, nobody comes into my office all day.
DH does all the shopping so I don't need to bump into people in the supermarket.
I have managed people out of my life. 

Time to start healing ladies.... letting people in again in RL, booking a grown ups only holiday somewhere and finding something therapeutic to lose yourself in like art or music or sewing... or a new puppy  .  These things are so healing.. Let love in!


----------



## mamochka

Crazy hi!  

Did not want to read and run as one year ago I can totally relate to your state, even now! I miscarried (missed) at about the same term as you and had ERPC straight away which helped to bring some physical closure but obviously not emotional . I had serial cries - in V&A museum, Selfridges, and on the board of the plane and a lot at home! I think it's very much ok to cry / at least for me I am not an easy crier so it took a lot of support messages on FF to pump my tears out. Unfortunately not much emotional support from my ex at the time. As I believe in energy and in this case feminine energy my advice would be to rebuild it slowly but surely - for me it was yoga, tango, music, massage/facials, long showers and grooming/taking care of myself. But I think the major accumulation of energy was flight to Cuba for 11 days. Where I was lying on my subbed towards the end of the trip and looked up at young coconuts at the top of the palm tree and thought to myself "well these babies did remind me of anything" and only then I realised I was not thinking about eggs/sper/embryos for entire week. I also let my hair loose a bit - had some rum and a few puffs of ex's cigars. Just be conscious about this positive energy inside you- collect it, cherish it, exchange it for smiles to unknown people in the street and one day you will feel strong again. I wish you all the luck in the future!!! Mamoxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Mamo - we can always rely on you for a wonderful warm response of encouragement   Lovely words and sentiment  

Annie - I get where you are completely. We live in the sticks, I work from home and a lot if the time the only person I see is DP.... And I don't mind   That can't be normal?? I too try to avoid seeing people mostly because I don't want to be drawn into a conversation about when I'm going to have children, if we've decided not to have children or how great it is that we met late in life so we can just do adult stuff  Yeah, right.....why do people think its ok to make a comment on whether or not you gave a family / might have a family? It is so intrusive  

Started the pred again today ladies   here I go towards muffin top and moon face   Just please please could I have our baby too   ?

Grey xx


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the good luck wishes ladies  
It sounds like a few of us were having meltdowns last night/this morning!  

Grey thank you very much   and yes it's taken ages and here I am same time as last year nearly   My body image has gone downhill since my losses too. Hard to keep on top of everything isn't it. Good luck with the pred!   

Crazy I felt so sad and wanted to hug you when I read how you'd felt, so here is a virtual one   I'm glad your hubby was there for you. It's so nice that you set this thread up. Keep going  

Annie your confessions sound familiar too, I feel like my life's been on hold til we have a family. Ive tried getting on with things & being positive in the now but it's been incredibly hard. We got 2 puppies during this time btw!   It's not like we can forget about the ivf, it will be nice when we can!  

Mamo that was a nice encouraging message, just what we need  

I'm all for letting love in like Annie said, so here's some more!       xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, ladies, thank you all for the virtual hugs.    Stuff just builds up, and sometimes the pot boils over. I'm doing relatively OK -- I just don't have much coping ability left to spare anymore.

I think you learn an awful lot about your partner going through IVF and miscarriage, for better and for worse. My husband has his problems, like everybody, and sometime I think his idiosyncracies will drive me round the bend   , but he has been really patient and supportive with my emotions around the miscarriage. I'm very grateful for the fact that DH is emotionally involved and sensitive to what I've been going through. I'm also grateful that he's not been affected as deeply by the miscarriage; it's put him in a better position to comfort me, which I have sorely needed. It helps that one of us is going into this next round of treatment with a bit of optimism.

Grey, I am right there with you on the body image issues. I could do with losing a stone, and it is coming off ever so slowly. The pregnancy hormones caused me to be ravenous, and the weight I gained is very difficult to shift. I'm not especially happy with how I look in my clothes, and I *hate* how my fat face looks in photographs. My BMI's not even into the overweight range, but I have tiny bones and a fleshy face that gets a ridiculous double chin if I'm not really thin. Bleh. 

Hopefully my period will start properly tonight. I've had red spotting all day, but nothing like the heavy flow I normally get when AF truly arrives. Fingers crossed that hormonal shifts will improve my mood in a day or two!


----------



## Chocolate21

Hello all, 

It is ages since I lasted posted. I tried to post several times a few weeks ago and lost my posts - felt like fate was telling me to take an IVF break. I have just spent a long time reading over the last few pages and can't believe how much it all resonates with me, from the panic of not home owning to the internal dialogues that roll around our heads. 

Thank you so much to those who gave me good advice re. clinics abroad. I finally took the plunge and e-mailed Serum last night, after a pretty unsatisfactory follow-up at my old clinic. I just have a gut feeling that Serum is the clinic for me so will be very interested to read their reply. Definitely want to wait til summer before I cycle again to give me time to lose the stone that piled on during IVF and pregnancy (body issues aplenty too).

This seems to have been the week for meltdowns - hugs to those that have had a bad week too   I just feel I can't deal with stress anymore and that triggers a meltdown, whilst most of the time I can carry on day to day. On Monday, one of my pupils kicked me in the stomach and I couldn't keep it together as everyone kept saying how awful it would be if I was pregnant. Hardly anyone knows that I would have been 19 weeks this week so they weren't being cruel. I just found the whole thing so difficult. Last night, whilst I was filling out the Serum questionnaire, I came across my scan report from week 7 and just seeing the words "heartbeat detected" sent me on a cryathon again. Other half has been amazing - he just wants to protect me and doesn't want to see me go through the trauma of ER again. He is very much pro-DE but I shall wait to see Serum's opinion. 

In happier news, DF and I eloped last week so DF is now DH   We had a very lovely few days and I even managed to squeeze into my dress. Everything has been so fertility focussed for so long that focussing on the 2 of us was a much needed diversion. 

The one thing that has really helped me through this has been music. Even though I teach it, I rarely have time to listen to it properly. Making time to listen has been so therapeutic - sometimes calming, sometimes making me cry but definitely helping to release the pent-up emotions. I guess we all have to search for the different things that help. Walking for me is great medicine too - time to think while the rhythm of walking is calming. I plan on being kind to myself with lots of massages and facials, now that I am venturing back out into the world. I managed to go and visit a couple of newborns this week and talked to someone about their 12 week scan which was a turning point for me. 

To everyone that is starting treatment again, wishing you all the very, very best. I think you are so strong to be starting again and have my fingers crossed for you all. 

Big hugs 
xxx


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Chocolate - congratulations on your wedding      That's lovely and you're so right we do need positive things which are not to do with infertility treatmebt   

With regards to serum, I'm glad you've made the first step.  Can I make a suggestion that you don't leave it too long before going out? They are shut for the whole month of August every year for holidays so it's worth planning for that. They like you to go out for a first consult so I would aim for May for that which then still gives june or JULY for cycling. Hope you don't think I'm being pushy  

Glad you're finding music & walking therapy. I love walking too which is just as well as I ned to do about six miles a day min with our dogs!

Merlin - congratulations on being PUPO dear lady  

Grey xxx


----------



## Louisej29

Just hopping on to wish all you ladies sooooooo much luck - I hope your dreams come true. This really is a hard and horrible heartbreaking journey

Reading your posts took me back over the last  four years and I can relate to so much of what you are all saying / feeling. We had some very dark and desperate times during our 3 miscarriages and 3 failed ivfs and I lost count if the times I sobbed my heart out at work/in the car or just about everywhere.  I agree with whoever it was who said about "red" events.  I avoided christenings/baby showers at all costs and did what was right for me.  Luckily we had success on IVF number 7 ( with lots of immune treatment and I believe it was the IVig transfusions that eventually did the trick!) 

Don't give up ladies, and wishing each and every one of you the very best of luck. Xxxxxx


----------



## gpk

just wanted to say hi to all..
@Chocolate: congrats on wedding.

@Greyhoungal : I want to try natural serum, for embryo banking. May be after 4/5 months(not sure abt it yet though). It is good to know that they are shut during August. (i can plan accrodingly).

@Louise29: i.e really great that you kept  on  going , inspite of so many heartbreaks. Gives some hope and +ve energy for us . Thankyou


----------



## Guest

Hi ladies  

Gail thank you for your good luck wishes with the FET and I do agree, finding new ways of thinking, responding & behaving can really come in useful!

Crazy how are you getting on? I hope your AF arrived at the right time & you're movingvon well with plans.

Chocolate congratulations!   Sounds a lovely way of taking your mind off ivf! I got married in between my first MC and starting ivf, it was really nice to have sonething happy to focus on   Music is a great positive thing too. Good luck with your next steps.

Grey thank you very much   I'm still in the first week of the 2ww, back to work next week. Maybe I'll have a result this time next week  

Louise that was so nice of you to encourage us all here   I'm so glad you finally had ivf success.

Hi gpk and to everyone else who has experienced losses and still waiting for their family to start growing!

Afm, I managed ok with the first bit of my 2ww after my FET but starting to find the pressure getting to me a bit    There are so many milestones to get thru, I guess you have up focus on one step at a time. It's so hard after things have gone wrong previously, sigh!

Hope you all are doing ok, happy March! xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Chocolate, huge congrats on your marriage! What a lovely distraction from all this fertility nonsense.  I hope things work out for you with Serum and they are able to give you your take-home baby.

Merlin, yes, my period finally turned up properly on the 24th and I am now on Day 4 of mild stims (letrozole plus 75 iu Menopur). The letrozole is not doing great things for my mood, but at least it's not giving me migraines! I'm flying to Brno on Wednesday evening and will stay for the duration through embryo transfer, as traveling between Brno and my home in Edinburgh is a right pain in the bum. Congrats on your FET, and fingers crossed for you!


----------



## WayneE

Hey guys it's been a while since I've posted but I have been reading your posts. Just felt a bit down. Didn't think I'd much to contribute.


Chocolate huge congrats on your wedding! Wonderful happy news.

CrazyHorse good luck with the stimms. I too am dreading the flights that will now be part of my journey- not because I don't like flying but because of the extra hassle. You have enough to plan an consider without adding flights and hotels into the mix. 

Grey and Crazy I too am carrying more weight than I'd like. I joined Weight Watchers in Jan. I wouldn't say it's going well but I am slowly losing weight. I have still a stone to lose-  Grrr.

Gail any immune test results yet? I also do the traffic light system. However, it's difficult to not do family things. Also sometimes I really can't face going out but I make myself and, like work, it turns out to be a pleasant distraction. Mind you that really depends on what's happened that day.

Merlin good luck with the FET - the 2WW is the worst - how to keep your mind busy without tiring your body. I've been reading about positive thinking lately and telling your body that it can get pregnant. Apparently it's good to feed your body positive vibes rather than criticising it all the time.

AFM when my clinic turned me down in January for EC after I produced 'only' 3 eggs on stimms, DH and I decided to try to take advantage of the eggs naturally. On Friday I was on Day 37 of my cycle which is about 10 days late. I didn't do a pregnancy test earlier because I didn't think I was pregnant but as the days went on I really started to hope. I've never gone beyond day 35 before and that was only after IVF. My usual cycle is 26 days. You can imagine how upset I was on Friday when AF started at 10pm. Gutted. Am trying not to beat myself up. 

Hugs to all, Wayne


----------



## CrazyHorse

I'm cautiously joining Merlin today in getting a BFP on the latest attempt.   Now let the REAL anxiety begin!  

I hope everybody else is doing OK. I'm trying to not take this pregnancy too seriously until and unless I see a good heartbeat at 8 weeks, but I know I will be on knicker-watch from here on out. (I had zero spotting last time until the brown spotting began that was ultimately the early harbinger of my miscarriage.)

I tested positive on HPT a day earlier this time, using the same tests from the same lot as last time, so hopefully that means a healthier embryo causing the higher hCG.  

Sending good wishes to you strong and lovely ladies.


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Wonderful news Crazy   I am over the moon for you and as with Merlin, I'm really praying this is your sticky little bean  

Lots of happiness on these lovely spring days         

Grey xxx


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thank you, dear heart, you have no idea how much I hope you will be next.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Thank you, dear Gail.  You are such a lovely, thoughtful support to everyone on these forums. 

Thanks for mentioning the mixed feelings thing -- it is true. I don't like the phrase "the baby you were meant to have" when talking about someone's take-home baby that they have after a miscarriage, because it makes it sound like the miscarriage was just a bump in the road that got you onto the path to have your "real" baby. But I think, for most of us who have been through miscarriage of an ART pregnancy, each and every pregnancy was real -- not a baby, per se, but a real potential for a life, that sadly ended before it could start. I'm delighted to get another chance, and I so, so hope it comes to fruition, I know I am extremely lucky even to be pregnant, but it doesn't change the feelings I had for our poor wee Speck who we ultimately had to lay to rest in our back garden. I know you and the other ladies here understand.


----------



## Guest

Congratulations Crazy!   That's great news!    I hope the weeks fly by for you quickly and all goes well. You deserve a lovely uneventful pregnsncy  

I've got my first scan next week and dreading it, but want to get on with it. I was doing ok until yesterday and now finding it hard to be positive after doing another clear blue test that I thought was a bit on the low side   Im having some bloods to compare beta levels this week so I guess that will provide an answer. So much effort & time goes into the preparation, cycling, 2ww etc I hope I don't have to do it again    

Hope everyone else is doing ok xx


----------



## Guest

Just thought I'd share this link

http://lauragraceweldon.com/2012/06/12/mother-child-are-linked-at-the-cellular-level/

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## CrazyHorse

Sending you positive vibes, Merlin.      I know you are having a hard time feeling OK about things these past few days, but I for one have high hopes for your scan next week.


----------



## Guest

Thankvyou Crazy   I've totally run out of steam/energy & optimism and can't imagine a good outcome next week, or even any future ivf treatment! I morning sickness and im 6 weeks today. I keep thinking adoption's the only way for us, but I feel so falorn at the idea of never having my own biological baby   I feel like I've only got duff eggs left!! Done so well getting BFPs bith times with ivf, if only I could keep hold of the pregnancies! Will let you know what happens next week. Thanks for the hopeful vibes and I send you   and   for your continued transpor of baby!   xxx


----------



## Guest

Thanks Gail, I do use meditation & listen to daily relaxation recordings, but I need to be doing it all day!   You're totally right about the limbic system too! I don't kniw if I'll ever get over my 20 week loss it was so awful   I hope Im wrong about my current situation and willing to face huge embarrassment over my strong emotions if I'm miraculously wrong and things work out ok this time   My first beta test seemed a bit low   Thanks for being a lovely person and so kind & supportive. You too Crazy. 

Hooe everyone else is fine xx


----------



## CrazyHorse

I thought I would post in here because I know you ladies will understand. I'm now 17dp3dt, and am finding myself having a lot of anxiety about whether this pregnancy will progress any better than last time.

I've been having lower back ache (not terribly severe, but bad enough to interfere with my sleep) for the last couple of days, and on Tuesday night I also had painful gut cramping. I know for a fact it was my gut and and not my uterus, but of course I couldn't help thinking of the cramping I had with my miscarriage.   Anyway, the gut issues passed, and I've had no spotting at all (of course, I'm still on the progesterone this time), but there's just a constant nagging in the back of my mind about how this will all work out.

I've also been POAS every day, as is my wont, and I feel like this morning's HPT may be infinitesimally lighter than yesterday's (which was quite a bit darker than the previous day's). Intellectually, I know there are plenty of non-sinister possible reasons for this, such as my morning urine being more dilute than the previous day's, but I just can't shut the worry off. (The HPTs are all from the same lot, so it's not variation among the tests.)

I'm being so silly I just want to slap myself, but I know it's normal to have this kind of free-floating anxiety when you've had a miscarriage before. I do not like it! And I don't think I will be able to shut it down until and unless we see a strong heartbeat on a scan. DH says none of it seems real to him this time -- last time, he found himself having a lot of thoughts about what life would be like after we had a baby, but this time his subconscious has shut all that down and he's just sort of in a holding pattern while we wait to see what happens.

I think it's hardest when you've had miscarriage(s), but never been able to carry a pregnancy to term, because you wonder if there can ever be a happy ending for you. And when you're over 40, you constantly have the sense that your window is closing -- and if you have another miscarriage, that's another big chunk of your remaining window gone.  

Anyway, sorry to be such a downer and all about me, but I needed to get all that out. It's very hard to distract myself, because the backache is a constant reminder that I'm pregnant, as my lower back is never normally sore. It's so hard to think about anything else!

I know our lovely Merlin is going through even worse stress right now -- the waiting game is always hard, but it's much harder when you've had it end badly before.    Am feeling that very keenly myself right now!


----------



## CrazyHorse

Yeah, I know the 1st trimester backache is very common due to relaxin, but it just seems to keep my mind laser-focused on being pregnant and wondering how long it will last. Distracting myself is proving tough! I keep telling myself it's more evidence that the pregnancy is real, but I really need to work on focusing my attention elsewhere. And, yes, it does help to chat with people who understand why this is such an anxious time.

POAS is a double-edged sword. I know from last time that often they don't darken up much from one day to the next, and then suddenly they'll get much darker the following day (which makes sense, as hCG doubling times are often not consistent, even within the same pregnancy). So occasionally there's those moments of, "Is it getting dark enough??!!!" But I get great comfort from seeing those two lines come up. Last time I quit after the test line matched the control line in darkness, and that's probably what I'll do this time.

Given your experiences, I absolutely understand what you're saying about the BFP being the start of even greater anxieties. I wouldn't say it's as bad as that for me, but if I'd had multiple miscarriages at this point I think it would be.

Time is crawling!!!!!

Anyway, thanks for your kind response, it is much appreciated.   

Hi to the other lovely ladies on this thread.


----------



## CrazyHorse

Oh, and let us not forget the incessant knicker watch! The spotting that ultimately led up to my miscarriage started with just a dot of beige CM on a Crinone applicator, that gradually progressed to brown spotting, and... well, you know the rest. Cue obsessive examination of Crinone applicators, toilet paper, and knickers this time around, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW that small amounts of spotting in various colours is completely normal in early pregnancy.


----------



## Greyhoundgal

Crazy

I think Gail has it spot on and I don't think I coukd say it better but I just wanted to say all you are feeling IS totally normal.....I'm only 2dp5dt and I'm in full on worry mode, knicker watch already   It's madness. Coupled with forgetting to take my clexane last night, I feel pretty stressed which can't be good.  But back to you....you have to try and positive affirm this pregnancy   I know that's hard, but remind yourself of everything that's different positively this time around - eg the stims protocol, the intrallipids, the pred. These are all things in your favour to help out this pregnancy.  The hpts is hard....I'd probably do the same but to a degree I think you can send yourself around the bend. I did them all the way up to scan seeing the HB last time   A few hcgs might be better and stop you focussing on it all the time?  I'm thinking of you  

Just a word to Merlin while I'm here - I know you're worried about your scan but they're all different and you really can't predict what the outcome will be. Try to be calm and carry on with your lovely meditation CDs and focus on growing your LO   The uncertainty is horrid but hopefully next scan will tell you all us well with your precious cargo  

Grey xxxx


----------



## Guest

Hi ladies yes I can relate to all this too. 
Crazy I'm sorry you've been feeling worried today   It's so hard after experiencing a previous loss. I feel the same about the age window as well   And I'm not sure about the whole POAS thing after my recent Clear Blue experience, will definitely have to do things differently if I have to go again. I'm not even sure about beta tests now either! Maybe best to blank the whole early pg out & turn up at scan & hope for best?!   Be nice if that was possible! 

Grey thank you   yes I should continue with the relaxation probably, but I just feel so pessimistic after the bad scan I don't even feel like doing them now! Less anxious now & more zombie. When I listen to my Circle & Bloom one at bedtime I feel like it's a cruel joke, forcing myself to pretend it's worked out ok   No morning sickness & just swollen boobs which could be from all the artificial hormones still being stuffed into my body!

Gail thank you too


----------



## CrazyHorse

Hi, ladies,

I'm doing better with managing my anxiety. It helped writing things out here, and telling DH in detail yesterday how the back pain was causing me to feel even more on edge about this pregnancy. I do think the location of the pain really has triggered off some post-traumatic stress stuff for me about the miscarriage, even though then the pain was radiating *towards* my back instead of originating *from* my back. Like Gail said, some of this stuff gets wired into you at a very deep level after a physically and emotionally traumatic event. Hopefully the stronger symptoms this time are indicative of a healthier embryo....

Also, in my daily POAS adventures, the test strip was quite a lot darker today, so I think hCG is continuing to double normally, albeit with the irregular jumps that people often see. I did break out a new lot of test strips today, but they are the same brand, and the darkening is significant enough that I'm pretty sure it's not just a lot-to-lot variation.

Grey, it's sweet of you to try to come up with ways to deal with my anxiety issues.    I don't think switching from POAS to beta hCGs would help, unfortunately, although it would certainly be more expensive! Thing is, with the betas, there's still lots of opportunity for doubling rates to vary from the 48-hour mark even in a healthy pregnancy, and you get that "Hey, you're still pregnant!" feedback less often. So I will probably carry on with my HPTs (especially as they're £10 for 50 strips!) and at least get to see those 2 lines come up every day. It still seems like a magic trick.

Please don't worry about the clexane. Missing one dose is not going to make or break your cycle, I promise. Likewise, don't stress out about feeling stressed! If stress could prevent pregnancy, the human race would be long gone.... I mean, obviously, try to steer clear of full-on panic attacks, but I'm confident serenity is not a prerequisite for pregnancy!    

Merlin, I so wish I could be sedated for the next 8 weeks and then someone could tell me if we successfully made it to 12 weeks or not. I'm not a big fan of serial betas just because I think the numbers give a false sense of precision about quantifying how well your pregnancy is going (not to mention the expense). Taking 72 hours for levels to double is perfectly within the normal range, but every time someone's levels take more than 48 hours to double, it inevitably causes panic. Also, there are lots of women who never have morning sickness at all during perfectly successful pregnancies (like my mother), so I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that -- did you have nausea with your previous pregnancies? Anyway, sending lots and lots of hugs.     I know this is one of the worst possible waits. We are all sending good wishes your way.


----------



## Guest

Glad you're feeling better about things today Crazy   Sorry about your back, sounds like it could be for positive reasons though   Btw yes Ive always had ms when pg, esp ones that had heartbeat, so not having any at this point doesn't bode well to me. Thanks so much for the   same back!

Grey I forgot to say I agree with Crazy about the clexane, am sure things won't be affected too much   I hope you're snug in pupo bubble today!  

I think I'm waiting for the inevitable in my scan in 6 days when I'll be 8+2 & will be kind of relieved to get on with things/plan next step & join a gym to get fit again for a few months! We're only going to cycle one more time so I hope the pressure won't be too bad with that one! You never know it might be totally different  

Hope everyone else is doing ok xxx


----------

