# WAKE UP CALL : Open letter to the MEN thinking about Donor Insemination (DI)



## mike99

Open letter to possible DI Dads,

I have recently been offered an invitation the DI dad club by my beautiful 27 year old wife. We have been together 12 years and married three years ago. After a painfull series of news and tests including surgical intervention, conclusion is *I am as sterile as a salt lake*. 

I read a lot, and *all posts/articles and comments seem to try and sugar coat things* especially to the Dads. *Having some one else's sperm inserted into your wife's vagina because you are disabled is the biggest humilation a man can take*. All this sugar coating about being a DI dad sounds fishy to me. Most comments revolve around anyone can be a father but few can be a Dad.

At the moment (for the last two years) I am in pain. However I think it *will be much worse if I accept my wife's invitation to the DI dad club. Every morning, every evening, all the time I will spend rearing some other's man genes*. I will be the victim of an Alpha male Cuckoo. Do you know the cukcoo lays his eggs in others birds nest and then just leaves ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckoo
_''About 56 of the Old World species and 3 of the New World species are brood parasites, laying their eggs in the nests of other birds.[14] These species are obligate brood parasites, meaning that they only reproduce in this fashion.''_

The above how *I* feel about this DI business.

When these kids grow up, and play the violin beautifully, win a prize, come second in a sports competition, have their first fist fight get their degree, start a business or/and get a brilliant job.* I know how I will feel deep down - good work Mr Cuckoo*.

Who am I to deny the kids of my wife a *real* Father and Dad ? *Who am I to deny my wife a real Man to her a real Father, Dad to her children ?* I think all this hunky dory fairy tale about two people being a unit does not make much sense. In nature if one does not produce offspring he is soon side lined he would be at the end of the wolf pack, the lowest rank, the reject. The last one who eats after all the rest, the last one on the trail, the first one to be sent as gun fodder when a fight breaks out. 

I am letting my beloved wife, my life companion go. *It is the last manly and honorable thing I can do on this planet.* It is the most reasonable, logic and obvious solution to my disability. It is painful, depressing, shameful and most of all humiliating. This is how I feel and think, if you are a to be DI Dad and you feel different treasure those feelings as you are lucky. I do not. I have no place in the Darwinian life. *I hope some day I will come across her, holding beautiful babies and with a real man/husband that loves and respects her.* 

Am I making sense ?  
Mike
PS: Do not sugar coat your answers please for those women who go on a rant about love, please do not. I think love does exist but I am practical about it. I do not want to sacrifice some one else's life because of my disability and because now she feels pity and has some shadows of the love she used to feel for me. (She has not recognized that she is choosing status quo and non change for her own long term misery and short term benefit)

/links


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## Faithope

*mike99* I am a woman so may be completely wrong to reply to your post. I won't pretend to understand how you are feeling because there's no way I can. The reason I wanted to reply was because I have a DS. He is 14 year's old. I met my husband when my DS was 4 years old. My husband has bought my son up as his own. My DH has shaped the young man our DS is becoming. My DH had nothing to do with the 'making' of our DS, the sperm that met my egg was from another man ( a very short r/ship).

My DH adopted my DS, sees him as his own flesh and blood. Strangers comment on how alike they look  They are so alike in tastes and share a love for Xbox. They rib each other all the time and it makes me smile when I see it. I am outnumbered when it comes to the 'it' game they play, I am always the odd one out.

What I am getting at is that the sperm is a tiny piece of a very huge puzzle. My DS needs love and security from a mum and dad. That's what he's getting. Sod the genetics.


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## ezwin

Hi Mike,

It's EZ here, thank for replying to my post and linking me to this.  

What I think is that every individual is different, and that I can see and understand your feelings, from a male point of view, I would never disrepect your views because we are all different and will have different feelings about everything.  

But my life experiences have made me realise that for me, the most important thing is the love and respect of my partner, the feel of her asleep beside me.  I have issues about DI I am waxing lyrical about them, but that is my trying to rationilise what I feel, based on past experience that has shaped me.

But I would never give up my partner for a potential, it might be selfish on my part, but when I am in love, she is everything and I wouldn't give her up so she can pursue something she wants.  If she left me for that I would learn to accept it, but I wouldn't do the giving up.  

And if I never resolve my issues, we have a DI child and I can't accept it, she would choose the best for the child, not me, which is right.  

So if I was in your position, but being me, I would hold on to the love of my other half, unless it reached a point she couldn't because of choices to make or not make..

Because you say "who are you to deny the kids of my wife a real father"  You are the man who loves her, that's who...  If you cannot go down the DI route then don't, but hold on to your love and allow her to make the desicion whether your love or a potential is most important, don't give it away.  That's what I would do.  No blame, no nastiness, just a sadness life can be crap sometimes. 

If it has to be, I will go down the DI path, I have no idea how I will feel, but I couldn't give up my partner, and if future feelings of mine get in the way, then I have lost nothing except the woman I love.  If they don't then all of us have won, me, my partner and the new child.  

But that is just me It's not advice,it's just a view.


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## mb2512cat

So, to summarise, as I understand your argument is that all fertile women should dump their infertile male partners and get pg by someone more 'manly'? 

And by the same token, men such as my DH should dump me and other females who have fertility probs and get some other more fertile (ie a proper, real) woman up the duff? i guess so. For me specifically, he has to live with an often-borderline psychotic, grief stricken, genetic freak of a woman who is effectively a production line for disabled babies? Just trying to be clear here! Actually, I do think, or at least think DH would be justified in doing so, If he went off with someone else. He would be a father many times over if it hasn't been for my genetically flawed eggs. He wouldn't have the humiliation, being the eldest of three brothers and the first to be married, of seeing his younger brothers become fathers, while we have a granite plaque in a cemetary to show for our efforts. Basically I have ruined his life, haven't I? Our wedding day was a mockery, a total waste of everyone's time and money. But he hasn't left me and I don't think he's having an affair. Perhaps you can shed some insight for me into his male brain why he hasn't done this? Too expensive perhaps? Hasn't met the right woman? Perhaps he even loves me?! I have no idea.

Of course facing donor anything strikes at the heart if our soul. For some it is easier to accept than others. If its definitely not the route for you, then there's nothing wrong with that. I can see why it's more primal for men. At least with DE the woman does carry the child and give birth to it, which normally helps with the bond.
But for men, of course it's not like that. Your mind seems pretty set. DE is realistically an option for us, but not something I myself am comfortable with. Not yet at least anyway.


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## staceysm

Hi Mike,

I believe you are entitled to your opinion and I think from what you have said personally, DI or DS would definitely not be for you.  I can't imagine what it is like to be in your position, but I do agree with the others that genetics are not everything.  I have a friend whose boyfriend left her when she was 6 months pregnant and she met an amazing man who has raised her daughter like his own.  He has adopted her and as far as all are concerned she is his daughter and he her father.  They do everything together and she is like him at times and has his ways.

I don't want to sound patronising in anyway, but you do sound very angry in your post.  I hope you are getting support.

I also don't believe that anyone on here sugar coat's how hard it is to accept that donor egg or donor sperm is the only way forward.  I am also baffled by your comments that you are only a real man when you have fathered a child.  What about men that walk away from their families/children?  Are they real men? And far better then men who haven't fathered a child?

I am not sure what else to say to you to be honest, but I hope that you can find a way forward.

X


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## DizziSquirrel

Hi Mike,
Not much I can say really as I am a woman, but I will just mention our situation/experience
I am married to a man who 20 yrs ago told me if we needed Donor Sperm, he could not use DS or adopt, the end. 
Would I have left him maybe, if the need to have a child brought resentment  would I have wanted him to leave me ? no. 
However it was a DE we needed and he stuck by me, told me it was my decision and whatever I decided he would be OK with, and I finally took the plunge a few years ago, being an only child the genetic side of things had me in knots, I met a woman from here when she was pregnant and again when the babies were 8m old and was amazed to see how one was the spit of her Mum the other her dad ( they used DE) I also met a wonderful woman on here who has 2 boys using DS and again the likeness to her husband shocked me, 
some time later I stumbled upon "epigenitics" and this set my mind at rest completely,

As I say different perspective to your situation, but you have Joined FF, a huge community of experience and tales to tell, some relationships survive here some dont either post or pre tx, however as a Man  with this diagnosis, you WILL find support here and you Will find a handful of other men posting ( Tony the site founde, Big Andy a Volunteer to mention 2!) so please read, research and ask questions to those who have gone down the DS route before you ask if they felt the same - ask how they feel now, 
  having said all that only you know what's best for you, your relationship and your life, 
if its not for you its not, and nobody will hold that against you, not here anyway    

~Dizzi~


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## goldbunny

whatever happened to 'in sickness and in health, til death do us part?'. marriage is a commitment. sure, infertility sucks. Be upset about it. But you can't just abandon your wife because your pride is hurt. That sucks even more.


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## yogabunny

Hi Mike
I can't begin to understand what you are going through, or your situation. 
It is a different situation, but I do know that when I was very sad and angry finding out my fertility issues, I did a bit of behaving like an idiot in our relationship so that DH could go and find a beautiful fertile young woman instead of me. 
I won't sugar coat, so I will tell you straight, as I listened to him and stopped feeling sorry for myself, I realised that I was worried about my own issues rather than his. It was actually selfish of me and to do with my own ego and not his wellbeing. I do think you are in danger of patronising your wife by thinking you understand what she needs. Perhaps you need to remember all of the amazing things that you are to her. You are also in danger of running away when she needs you most.
I tell you this with no sugar coating in case it helps. Of course, it is different situation, and you will know what is right.
YB


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

My DH took being infertile very very hard. And he already had a child with someone else! In a relationship that ended before the pregnancy became apparent with a very acrimonious split after a short reconcilliation to try an raise the child together. I came into the relationship when the child was 3 and DH had been alone for 2.5 years struggling with CSA, court for access and bitter doorstep arguments. Horrenous. Really horrendous.

DH and I got married and started trying for a baby ASAP. We had a lot of stressful things happening one after another for 5 years so we put our lack of success down to that and shift work. When we went to the doctor I was convinced it was only me who had a problem - because he had a child!
How wrong can you be - the sperm analysis came back 0 sperm. Biopsies turned up 0 sperm and his FSH level was 37. No hope at all. We were tol only option was donor or adoption or split up.

He wanted to adopt or split up. I wanted to use a donor. We had all sorts of counselling and he was a closed book. I wanted to use a donor because I wanted to experience pregnancy, have a new baby from an embryo, to see the scans, to nurture, to birth and breast feed. Adoption is a wonderful thing, but you don't get a new born and there may be abuse issues for the child and attachment issues etc. I of course wanted to have my DH's child, but as that was not possible I looked to the next avenue of possibility and that was to use a donor, but raise the baby from an embryo together. The donor is not at the IVF, the donor is not at the 8 week, 12 week or 20 week scan. The donor is not at the birth or helping with the baby, watching the first smile, first laugh, first word, first tooth, first steps. The daddy is.

My DH, like you could not see that. He went into melt down of grief and took me with him.  We were in stalemate for a few years. In the end he said he had enough and I said fine and we separated. I started treatment alone and divorce proceedings. I was too old by then to faff about trying find this ''real man'' you describe, I had no time left already being 37 so it was going to be a donor anyway and me a solo mum.

DH went off for 3 months (we still lived in the same house but separated) and eventually spoke to some friends who thought he was mad. He came back to me an we went for treatment together. I lost the first baby at 17 weeks an I think he was just as upset. Then the frozen embryo did not take. He held the next full IVF treatment at arms length. I got pregnant again and he came to the scans. Everything was perfect that time and we now have an absolutely beautiful and sweet little boy who has an likeness to my father. So if anyone asks he takes after my Dad.

DH is still struggling a little and makes comments sometimes, but deep down I am sure he would not want to be missing this. As the baby gets older and plays more and talks more DH is getting more into it. I think he still keeps a little distance because people and pets he becomes attached to do get taken away and he finds that devastating. He worries about rejection in the future and does not seem to realise that the more you love and nuture a baby the less likely they are to reject you.

Only you can decide what is right for you, but what I would say is that it takes a couple of years to complete a grief cycle properly and you are grieving the baby you cannot have at the moment. Once you have grieved properly, you might be able to see that there is a baby you CAN have.


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## VEC

Hello

You mentioned in your post that if you were to have a baby through donor sperm, then you'd look at any of the child's achievements as being thanks to the donor.

We have three children conceived through egg donation.  They are young but when they do things, I do often find myself wondering whether their actions/looks come from dp, or me, or our donor.  Or indeed whether are unique to our children.  When I was pregnant with ds1 and his twin, I could hardly bear to think about our donor.  As son as he was born, my feelings on her changed to an acceptance of her part in our family.  We'll never know her, but without we'd not have children.  And nowadays I just feel gratitude towards all the women who have donated for us over the course of five donor egg cycles.

Your feelings may change similarly.  Or not.

Have you and your wife had counselling?  Should you leave her, then perhaps counselling will help her to deal with the devastation this will no doubt cause her, and will perhaps lessen the feeling that you are making unilateral decisions about your marriage.  It may also help you see a rounder picture of donation and assisted conception, even if it doesn't change your mind ultimately, and again this may help your wife come to terms with your decision.


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

Also why can't your child's achievements be down to you?

Do you think DNA is the only thing that makes achievements?....... or is it reading to your baby while it is still in the womb, showing him/her how to draw their first scribbles turning them into a house, taking her to ballet classes and sitting outside the door week after week encouraging them to go even when it is cold or they are tired, is it putting ear plugs in and listening to the screech of the violin at 7am everyday while they practice for the recital, is it getting the video camera out and filming the poetry reading at the school play and beaming with pride when it is word perfect after all the practice you put in together?
Is it providing a loving home, security to thrive, good food in the belly and happy fun times where learning just happens at home or on family days out?

DNA is a very very tiny part - it is how you nurture a child that makes all the difference. If the same child was in an orphanage in Romania would it achieve as much? No - the child has DNA, but no nurturing.

Parents nurture a child.


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## Tommi

Mike... where have you been getting your info from?! Are you a committed reader of a certain right wing daily paper?! You've had some very gentle, concerned replies here but I just want to say get out there and talk to people, do some proper research and then think about how you feel. If you are still determined to leave your wife at a time when she needs a loving partner the most, please point her in the direction of the incredible single women on this site. She'll get plenty of support!
So much more I could say, but I think that's probably enough  
Txx


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## carrie lou

Hello Mike, I'm sorry to hear about your diagnosis.  You sound very upset and angry and have every right to be. It's a horrible thing to have to face.


My husband had the same diagnosis in 2009. We were told he would never father a child. The one thing I wanted more than anything was to be a mother and now I was being told it wasn't going to happen. We were both completely devastated. But I can honestly tell you the thought of leaving him and finding a man who could get me pregnant, never entered my head. We have been together since we were teenagers (just like you and your wife); we have weathered many many storms together and this was just another hurdle we had to get over, albeit the biggest and hardest of them all. But I didn't marry him for his sperm count, I married him because I loved him and wanted to spend my life with him and this hadn't changed. Sorry I know you said not to go on about love, I'm just telling you how it was for me.


There was a time when my DH said he couldn't bear the thought of another man making me pregnant. I guess he shared a lot of the feelings you are experiencing now. But this "disability" as you call it, is absolutely not your fault and there is no reason you should feel humiliated by it.


Fast forward 3.5 years: My DH and I now have a little boy conceived with donor sperm. He is the most amazing beautiful child and has completely transformed our lives; he is the most wonderful thing ever to happen to us. My DH often says he would like the opportunity to reassure any man thinking of becoming a "DI Dad" that he does not regret it one iota. It sounds like a cliche, but Zac's daddy is the man who was there when he was born, the man who reads him a bedtime story every night, the man who takes him out on his bike on a Sunday. The man who Zac calls "Dadda". The sperm donor is simply a wonderful generous man who made it happen for us. 


DH may not be Zac's genetic father but there is no doubt he is his daddy in every possible way. And if Zac achieves great things in his life (as I hope he will) it will be down to me and DH who supported him and nurtured him along the way. I don't believe it will have anything to do with the sperm donor who lives many miles away and has never met us.


It sounds from your post as if you are relatively early on in your journey and it is natural to feel shock and anger and hurt, all of which come across in your post. But please do not do anything you might regret, such as leaving your wife, who is likely to be sharing all those emotions, at a time when you are probably not thinking clearly. Please take some time to come to terms with things, and talk to your wife to find a way forward. I wish you all the best and if you want to talk more about it, please PM me - I can even get my DH to give you his perspective if you like, seeing as he has been in your shoes in the recent past.


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## olivia m

Hi Mike
I'd just like to support what Carrie Lou and many other women have said in response to your very sad story. I too am the mother to donor conceived children, two of them in fact now aged 29 and 26. I married my husband because he was a wonderful, generous, intelligent and thoughtful person. I wanted his children so that they could inherit his wonderful qualities. But when it was shown that he was infertile the last thing on my mind was to leave him and find someone else who could give me children. He was the man I loved and we wanted to raise children together, realising after the initial shock and grief, that genes have little to do with how people turn out. The most important thing that anyone can pass on to a child is good values, high standards in the way we treat others in all aspects of life. This my husband has done brilliantly. Our children, who have known about their donor conception since they were little, feel loved, respected and valued and are doing well in all aspects of life. They have a lovely relationship with their Dad and do not regard their donor as a father, just a good man who helped to give them life.

My husband and I helped to found the Donor Conception Network twenty years ago so that there would be somewhere where men and women who found themselves needing donor conception would have somewhere to turn to for support. You would be very welcome to contact the Network [email protected] to talk with other men in your situation who have found a way through it that doesn't involve leaving their partner. Have a look in particular at Letter from Walter to would-be DI Dads http://www.dcnetwork.org/letter-walter and the For Men section http://www.dcnetwork.org/men

No-one said this road was easy - it isn't - but my husband now says that having to face the reality of his infertility and then becoming a dad by DC is the best thing ever to have happened to him. He feels more of a man and a person in general for having faced and gone through it all with me, his partner, than if he had avoided all the dilemmas and difficulties by not agreeing to donor conception or by leaving. Our daughter is also very clear that her dad is the very model of a real man.

Give yourself time, don't leave your wife when she needs you the most - do research and explore more. You may come to different conclusions if you do.
Wishing you the very best
Olivia

/links


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## chocolate_teapot

> whatever happened to 'in sickness and in health, til death do us part?'. marriage is a commitment. sure, infertility sucks. Be upset about it. But you can't just abandon your wife because your pride is hurt. That sucks even more.


I agree! Your argument, I am happy to say, is a load of *#*#*! You are talking as if we are all animals - yes, animals might leave and find another partner but animals do not fall in love, get married, and make lifelong commitments - humans do. Donor insemination is not an easy decision to make - we decided that it was not for us after a lot of soul searching and, we were lucky in the end as we did not need it. You might decide that it is not for you either - but it is not a decision you can make on your own. I am sorry but your post seems supremely arrogant - you have decided that your wife would rather have *any* other man than the man she fell in love with and married - have you asked her what she thinks? I would be furious if my husband had presumed this. I am sorry you asked for straight talking and I know you are hurting but please, please don't justify your actions with bogus, "Darwin-style" arguments.


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## C0nfused

Hi Mike

I can understand how hard it is for you to have been given this diagnosis and am saddened that you feel that the only viable solution is to end an othewise happy marriage with the woman you so clearly love. 

Have you tried thinking about this if it was the other way round, and it was your DW that was in your situation? Would she leave you? Would you leave her to go have children with someone else? Or would you stay with her and have children with her by using eggs that someone has dontated, knowing that that child will be brought up in a loving and caring family with parents who love them and although only one may share genetic genes with the child, both would love just the same?

The easiest solution to you may be to run, but is that really what you want? Is that what your wife wants? I don't think so. 

If you have a child conceived using donor sperm or donor eggs, the child is legally yours. There is NO legal rights whatsoever to the donor. You are not bringing up someone elses child, you are bringing up your child. Whether it has genetic links or not, they would be legally yours. Your name would be on the birth certificate.

When my husband and I were discussing the possibilities of using donor sperm, my DH was dead against it. Like you, he felt that the child would not be his, would be someone elses etc. He thought that you went into the clinic for the treatment and were given any old sperm that was donated and the child could be a different race to him etc. It wasn't until it was explained how carefully they match you to a donor that he understood the process and accepted it as an option should we need to go down that route. 

When you go through treatment you are there for every step of the way, you are part of all of it. 

And for the record.. sperm donors aren't alpha male cuckoos. They don't donate to 'show off' their fertility. Maybe you aren't aware but as well as a scheme where when a couple have IVF the woman can donate half of the eggs that are collected to a recipient who for whatever reason, cannot use their own eggs, a man who is going through treatment with their wife can donate sperm to couples like yourselves, who cannot use their own sperm. These are people who truly understand what it is like not being able to naturally have children because THEY themselves are going through fertility treatment. There are ofcourse people out there that also donate because they want to help people start a family and do so for many reasons. 

Jenny


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## Jz5000

My situation is different than yours, but I think we are all here because we can relate to each other in some way or another. Someone said earlier, infertility sucks... It does. There is so much pain that goes along with it. I felt like less of a woman because I couldn't give my husband another much wanted child. I've had to work through it and figure it out WITH my husband. Where do we go from here. DE, adopt, nothing We decided to move forward with DE, but it took a year to get here after 4 years of ttc. I don't think you should leave your wife either. I hope everything works out for you.


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## Maisyz

I understand completely how you feel from the perspective of being told Donor Egg is the best way forward. 

There is no way, no how, absolutely under no circumstances that I am going down that route. My husband agrees. It would never be our child so there would be absolutely no point whatsoever in doing it. I know plenty of people who say, oh but it's our child, but the fact is it isn't and that is a genetic fact. I know of people of both sexes who have used donors and some regret it deeply. Every time they look at the child they see no aspect of themselves in it and every negative thing in the child is because it must take after the donor. This sort of situation is not healthy either for them or for the children concerned (many of whom live their entire lives with their donor status is not revealed to them.

It's OK to say I don't want a donor child and I think it is what you need to do.

Oh and on the leaving your wife thing, stop talking rubbish, she married you because she wanted to. Sure if she doesn't want to be with you because you can't have kids then fine, she knows where the door is. Fact is perhaps she's happy to stay with you because she loves you. You can still look at other options like adoption which is what we are planning to do.

Do what is right for you. I think you've been very brave to be honest about how you feel. Do not under any circumstances go ahead with donor though it would be wrong for you and more importantly very wrong for any child you had. No child should have to live with a father who is abusive about their conception.

Good luck


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## DaisyMaisy

We were told that we needed de. At the beginning, I packed my bags and I was ready to leave. I couldn't give my dh what he wanted, so I was setting him free to go and have babies with someone else. Luckily for me, dh came home from work early and caught me just before I left. We had a very open conversation, sat on the stairs crying. He explained that he loves me for me, not my ability to have children. He wants to raise a chil with me, not another woman. It probably took me a good year to actually believe that. And after 6 failed cycles and stillbirth, he is still here by my side.
Talk to your wife. She married you for you. Find a solution together. 

Xx


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## Tommi

Maisyz - I understand you have a very strong opinion on donor conception, but it is just that... an opinion. The genetic facts of donor conception may surprise you   There are many extremely positive stories of donor conception out there - stories of children and parents who are deeply loved and cherished unconditionally for who they are.
I wish you luck in your future path, whatever you decide to do.
Txx


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## Maisyz

Tommi, the "genetic facts" are just that, genetic facts, irrespective of epigenetics or anything else. I'm sure there are lots of donor kids who are loved, in fact I know many people who have gone down that route and are very happy. But there are also people who regret that route. It is better to decide not to go down that path before a child is created who is sentenced to a life with a parent who is not truly committed to it and in some cases resents it's conception. Not everyone wants to use donors and they are perfectly entitled to say so.


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## carrie lou

Absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if you feel donor conception is not right for you, then far better to find another way forward than to have a child you may end up resenting.

BUT to suggest, as Mike did in his original post, that "*Having some one else's sperm inserted into your wife's vagina because you are disabled is the biggest humilation a man can take*." and that DI dads are somehow emasculated and humiliated and victims of "cuckoos" is frankly ridiculous and even quite insulting. There are many of us who are very happy with the idea and indeed the reality of donor conception.


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## Tommi

Maisyz it is true that not everyone is happy to use donors, and of course that is fine. But we should be careful with how we express our opinions on this as there will be those reading these threads in the process of decision making and it would be terribly sad if they got a wrong impression of donor conception. 
We can't really ignore epigenetics - it forms part of the wider picture of donor conception. It is fascinating stuff and I for one would never want to tell a woman that her baby that she carried and nurtured and that resulted from an adopted embryo or donated egg was not "hers"... whose is it then?! We make the decisions that we can live with, but we have to be careful when talking about so called "facts".  
Txx


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## Mrs CW

I think it's perfectly OK to say you are uncomfortable with donor eggs or sperm - everyone has to be clear about what they do and don't want, the science of conception has opened up huge ethical and societal questions for so many of us where previously there was simply a situation we would be stuck with, that we remain childless and have none of this sort of debate. Perhaps we should refer Mike to the separate debates on this site on epigenetics and the issues around donor parenting so he can make up his own mind, if he hasn't already. 
We all have our own levels of what we can get our heads and our hearts around and indeed reasons for wanting a baby (eg for some, experiencing pregnancy is just as important as genetics, for others the genetics really matter and the experience of pregnancy less so, for others, just the experience of bringing up a child as their own is what they want).

If donor conception is not for you, it is not for you, and there are plenty of members here who have researched it and thought about it long and hard and no amount of epigenetic reassurance will make them feel any more comfortable.

However, I do feel concerned Mike, at your 'cuckoo analogy and thoughts around the idea of infertility as a 'disability' which in nature would leave you or your non-genetically linked child as the lowest of the low ("canon fodder" I think you called it). I think for starters nature has more examples of nurturing communities and couples than just the cuckoo. Some animals partner for life and whilst this has the aim of continuing the species, their partners do not leave them if they do not conceive. Some animal communities form families that nurture each other and the children of other animals that have died. 
Regardless, as has already been pointed out, this isn't raw nature, we are civilised human beings with the ability to communicate using language, express ourselves, fall in love, think, feel and have a moral code. I understand you are hurt and still feeling the shock of your diagnosis, but if I was your wife I think I would be upset at the assumptions you are making that she now doesn't need you or won't love you. I hope this is not the case.

I also strongly disagree with your views (which you're entitled to, but I don't happen to feel are right) that genes are the only thing responsible for a child or an adult's talents, achievements, or indeed personality. Quite apart from DI dads, it makes adoptive parents, step-parents and parents who for one reason or another bring up a child alone, sound like deluded fools when they enjoy being parents to their children, feel proud of their achievements, or even conversely when they feel responsible for their more misguided actions. It also implies that donor-conceived children, adopted children, stepchildren, can and will never grow up to be anything other than the circumstances of their conception, the product of their genes. I'm pretty sure most adopted children would argue strongly with that. 
Epigenetics, genetics or not, I personally believe child-rearing has a major role in a person's makeup.

Your situation goes to the heart of the nature v nurture argument and the reasons we have children in the first place. For some the wish to pass on our genes or create something that is part of both of its parents is very strong. However I do hope you have discussed with your wife why she wants to have a child with you, her reasons for being with you, and don't assume that if she talks reassuringly she has deluded herself wanting to "go with the status quo" Really? Perhaps it is her desire to be a parent _with you_ that is driving her. Perhaps it is her desire to be _with you_ no matter what that is driving her. If she hears from you that DI is a step too far, I think she might like to be involved in the decisions about what happens next.

People make compromises in their relationships all the time - this may be to accept donor, it may be to accept that your partner doesn't want it, it may be to accept that you won't have children together, but love each other nevertheless. I don't know your wife. Perhaps she's telling you she wants a baby with you and is disregarding your feelings about donor sperm. Perhaps she's not giving you enough time to get past your diagnosis and assumes you'll be happy with a donor cycle. Perhaps she has accused you of being less than a real man - in which case, absolutely, you go ahead and leave her to find a better source of sperm, if that's all she thinks of you. 
Or perhaps she's confused, upset by your joint infertility as a couple, can't get inside your head and doesn't know how you're feeling. Perhaps she will be devastated to hear that you're considering leaving her so she can find what _you_ consider to be a 'real man' but she does not. 
I'm conscious that many of the responses on here are from women, and I hope this helps you to understand that we have all thought deeply about the issues raised by our own fertility issues, we don't just seek the status quo or the norm, we all have very differeing views on these incredibly serious and troubling questions. I hope this discussion is helping you with some additional insights to help your discussions with your wife, because to be honest, I'd forget about trying to conceive for a while so that you can try to work out what you both think is important in your relationship and possible family - if you just walk away, I don't think you're crediting your beloved wife with any emotional intelligence.

Claire x


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## staceysm

Hi,

I do agree that DS is not for all men.  My friends were told they would never conceive naturally and DS was a complete no, no by DH.  Luckily she did conceive naturally and had a boy.

I just cant get my head around the comment, that you are not a 'Real man' if you can't father a child.  Plenty of 'Real men' walk out on their children daily.  I.e; like my DH's Dad, but it's OK, as he is a real man!!!!!

Also mainly women use this site, hence more replies from women.

X


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## Caz

Maisyz said:


> It is better to decide not to go down that path before a child is created who is sentenced to a life with a parent who is not truly committed to it and in some cases resents it's conception.


You may as well say _"It is better not to"_ about everything! Take it to its logical conclusion... 
- IVF fails more than it works: you may as well not do it.
- Women over 40 have a higher chance of having a baby with birth defects: you may as well not do it. 
- Nearly 1 in 2 marriages end in divorce: you may as well not do it.
- 1 in 3 people you know will be affected by cancer: best not make any friends or have any family "just in case" then. 
- Might get hit by a bus tomorrow: best not have a child then, in case you leave him/her parentless.... for that matter, best not get out of bed in the first place, much less go live your life. 

I realise there's a lot to consider when we're talking about bringing a child into the world not just getting out of bed but the point is, we have no clue what and where our lives will take us, and the best we can do is stand by the decisions that feel right at the time and hope like hell they come good in the end... and if they don't, we deal with the fallout in the best way we can. This site is full of people who bring a child into the world knowing that nothing is rigid or guaranteed. Anyone is capable of rejecting their child, not just those of donor conceived babies. We've women here who have been left in the lurch (mid pregnancy/IVF) by partners who've then decided they want out of the "family" they've been party to create. In society in general there's plenty of deadbeat dads out there who bugger off and never have anything to do with their totally genetically THEIRS child. Plenty of mums do it too. A child does not have to be donor conceived for their parent to regret their conception, even if it's planned. And that's not counting children who have lost a parent, grandparent or sibling or suffered illness or disability or any number of other traumas and sentenced to a life of having to deal with them. 
Life is about taking risks, and the greatest risks we take are the risks we take with our heart.

Mike, I don't presume to know what it's like to face the choice of donor conception, and I think it may well be very different for a dad than for a mum. Each of us must do what feels right at the time, and I am sorry, Mike, that you feel it's not right for you and this means you feel you will never be able to be a dad. That's totally your prerogative and nobody can tell you to think or feel differently. What I would urge you to do is to seek some counselling and talk through all your feelings about donor conception with someone who can guide you through the minefield. You make end up back where you started, but at least you will be sure of your feelings and will act with the full facts in hand. It's quite clear from your post (particularly your cuckoo analysis) that you're looking at this quite one dimensionally at the moment.

One thing I do know is that the inability to do the one basic thing your biologically designed to do is a massive massive trauma in itself. There is nothing quite so soul destroying of self esteem damaging. I remember telling my DH (after our 5th failed cycle and when we'd given up before DH persuaded me to try one last time) that I was going to leave him and my whole life behind and go backpacking round the world. I felt that I needed to do something different to make my life make sense. Up until then, the "sense" - the goal and aim - had been to be a family with my DH. When it looked like we couldn't do that I felt obligated to "release" him from his obligation to me, much as you do to your wife right now. It was a bit ridiculous really because my DH had 2 children from a previous relationship so our baby making endeavours were, really, quite selfishly for me more than for us. He didn't want a package deal, he just wanted me, and anything else would have been...nice, but not essential. Quite what logic led me to think he'd me more concerned about having a baby with someone else rather than spend a life with the women he loved... 
I am certainly not the only person who has thought that leaving is The Answer. I would not mind betting it's something that has crossed most of our minds at some point. 
The point I am making is your logic is flawed. Your wife loves you, you love her. Leaving her is only going to do one thing; it's going to break her heart all over again. It's already broken by infertility - trust me on that - so why on earth would you want to heap more pain and heartache on the woman you so clearly love?

Man up; get over yourself. Talk to your wife. Work it out - or not since it might come to pass that you break up over this anyway - but don't patronise her by assuming to know what's best for her. Because it might be you that's got the medical cause for your infertility, but the problem of your infertility is a joint one.

Caz


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## Maisyz

The point I was making Caz was that if Mike does not want to do donor he shouldn't.  No child should be in a position where they are not wanted. If Mike decides he wants to use donor, great, that is his choice to make. But from the comments he's made he really doesn't seem to want to do that.


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## Mrs CW

Absolutely, Maisy.  Doing anything you're not comfortable with, especially when it's concerned with children, is unwise. 

However as Mike currently thinks his wife would be better off without him, that he's not a real man because he can't conceive with his own sperm, and that fathers of donor children are just deluding themselves that they are actually fathers,  I would counsel caution on him making any decisions yet.  He may feel differently when he's come to terms with his diagnosis, after he's done more research, or even after reading this thread and more of the FF site and other sites.  

I don't agree that he shouldn't consider a donor conceived child.  
I don't agree with his views on donor conceived children as being the children of cuckoo dads, nor that he's ignoring epigenetics or that he's not yet considering what it could be like to raise a child that is his and his wife's in all but the male genes.  I dont' agree that he thinks that men who have problems with or an absence of sperm are not real men or real dads.  
I think that these views and assumptions demonstrate he is at the beginning of a thought process which needs to be completed with his wife before he discounts the donor option completely.    
Once he has done so, as I know you have, then sure, if he still has doubts or discomfort with the idea, he should not do this.

I say this as someone who was also very clear that I would not pursue the donor route if we needed it.  It didn't sit right with me, I have no problem with anyone who does it, I just didn't want to, and it was as much to do with personal circumstances, with mine and my DH's personal tolerance levels for treatment and so on, as any genetic argument.  My DH already had children, I already had a relationship with children who were not genetically mine.  Just as some people wouldn't want to adopt, my DH and I discussed it over and over and were both comfortable with adoption.  But I also once said I would never do IVF, for various reasons.  I didn't really know enough about it at the time.  


Claire x


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## mike99

Dear Friends,

I cannot thank you enough for your honest answers 
Some where eye openers like epi-gentics.
Others I completely identify with like ''leave and backpack round the world''. 

I can sumup my situation better now: (I was really in a Dark place when I wrote that post)

The logic thing to do is to go ahead with the DI donor. Period. I will be a Dad, I will have sour feelings because of my disability but happy feelings when the kids come home and call me Dad. My wife is happy. It will be traumatic and sad but I am sure I will adjust. I tend to adjust to bad situations anyway. I am also sure there will be laughing, smiles and probably more happiness in my life to counteract the other feelings. (The bad feelings will probably be with me anyway even if I choose not to go ahead with DI)

However 

On an emotional level and on a gut feeling, I am getting DO NOT GO AHEAD WITH THIS ALARAM bells. Is this an emotiional fight or flight reaction (yes) ? I do trust these feelings as they have been more right then wrong in the past. The more time will pass, the more logic will win and I am sure that is a NOT good thing.

Most of you have suggested I talk to some one to help me deal with this. Do you mean a ''shrinK'' ''social worker'' or a ''friend'' ?

 Thanks for your replies, I never expected so many!
Mike


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## Mrs CW

Hi Mike,

I'm so glad you've been reading and are feeling a little better about things!

If you have been seen by a clinic for diagnosis, they should be able to point you in the direction of a counsellor who is specialised in dealing with infertility.  Most hospitals and clinics have either an in-house counsellor or access to the services of one. 

Equally if you see a UK clinic with a view to starting donor conception, you should first be offered counselling specifically regarding donor issues, as part of the process.  (this may not happen at clinics abroad as standard, though it may be offered as a service).

But also do talk to friends or anyone else who is willing to listen - I certainly feel you need to hear a male perspective on this, as you are so clearly upset by your infertility and have concerns about what being a man or a dad means to you and to others.  Do you have any male friends who could talk to you sensitively about this?  Perhaps just hearing the views of friends or family who are parents, would help you to understand what is most important to you about becoming a parent or not. 
We are also here on FF any time you need some help or support - and I hope you have discovered The Men's Room, as well as our other boards on donor conception, Coping with Infertility and many others which will help you if you decide to go ahead with treatment.    
I do think you should be a little careful about labelling infertility as a disability - I think registered disabled people may take issue with that! - you have a condition, which is a little different.  

Do let us know how you're getting on, we hope to see you posting more around FF.

Claire x


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## carrie lou

Mike, I'm glad you are feeling a little more positive and that we've been able to help you a bit.  


My DH and I saw a counsellor attached to our fertility clinic. If you have been referred to a clinic, they should be able to point you in the right direction. As Claire pointed out, if you are considering treatment with donor sperm, you will be required to have specialist counselling before you can go ahead anyway. In addition, my DH found a Yahoo group called DI Dads which he found useful to discuss issues with other men who have been through this. (It was a number of years ago now so I hope the group still exists!)


Also, if you are not 100% sure about using a donor, don't rush into it. There is no hurry especially as your wife is still young. It is a long process to accept and grieve for the children you can't have, and then open your heart to those you can have. Talk to your wife, a counsellor, a friend. Read the Donor Conception Network site for personal experiences. Hang out in FF for a while longer. And only make your decision when you are certain about what you want.


If you do decide to go ahead with DI, I can promise you, things will all be put into perspective when you hold that little bundle in your arms, and yes, you will adjust. Good luck whatever you choose


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## Caz

mike99 said:


> The logic thing to do is to go ahead with the DI donor. Period. I will be a Dad, I will have sour feelings because of my disability but happy feelings when the kids come home and call me Dad. My wife is happy. It will be traumatic and sad but I am sure I will adjust. I tend to adjust to bad situations anyway. I am also sure there will be laughing, smiles and probably more happiness in my life to counteract the other feelings. (The bad feelings will probably be with me anyway even if I choose not to go ahead with DI)


Gosh, there's no logic at all where donor conception is concerned. It's as much - more even - about what your heart wants than what's - logically - right. Don't apologise for trying to wrap your brain around what your heart is saying is wrong. 



> However
> 
> On an emotional level and on a gut feeling, I am getting DO NOT GO AHEAD WITH THIS ALARAM bells. Is this an emotiional fight or flight reaction (yes) ? I do trust these feelings as they have been more right then wrong in the past. The more time will pass, the more logic will win and I am sure that is a NOT good thing.


I am a big believer in following your instincts. As others have said, donor conception is not for everyone. It would not have been for me and, yep, it would have been "game over" had we needed it (on either side). My DH also wrote a great big line under adoption right from the off. I never even mentioned it after that first foray, such was his negative reaction to it. 
Had we needed a donor - had we not been able to conceive, I would have had to move on childless. Simple as that. And by the time I did my last cycle "for closure" I was ready to do just that and those "backpacking" feelings were a distant memory. I would not have left my DH; I was a pretty selfish moo when I was going through my battle with infertility; my DH was an absolute saint to put up with me. That he did and dragged me kicking and screaming through all the dark times when I wanted to give up on, well, everything. I mean no exaggeration when I say, I could not have done it without him.
Bizzarrely enough, while I don't think I could have had a donor myself, I became a donor because I egg shared. I do know (because I asked) that at least one child was born as a result of my egg donation; I know nothing beyond that fact but that conception was the result of my second IVF - which I too got pregnant on but miscarried... talk about screw with your head. . These days the only feelings I have about it now is that I am glad that I have someone the chance of a family that they were denied. That's all. By the way, my last "for closure" cycle resulted in my little boy. One day I may have to deal with the fact he has a genetically linked person out there as a sort of sibling, but I've decided to adopt my DH's lifelong attitude of not over thinking things too much and crossing that bridge when I get there. Not sure it's a reccomended attitude but, frnakly, least of my worries at the moment! 



> Most of you have suggested I talk to some one to help me deal with this. Do you mean a ''shrinK'' ''social worker'' or a ''friend'' ?


Doesn't really matter who, so long as it's someone who is a good listener and who will help you find your own way through this. I suggest a counsellor since they are generally trained specifically for this sort of thing (not a shrink as such, just someone who will point you in the right direction), but if you have a friend who is good at helping you do this, then that works too. For me, I dealt with my feelings by making friends on FF; they were my counsellors and supporters and probably saved my sanity over and over. If you do go down the DI route, you will be offered counselling anyway, and there's lots of support out there for people in this situation.

The one thing I learnt in all my journey is you cannot do this alone, so do ask for support when and where you can.


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## Rose39

Mike - I was just reading your posts and couldn't read and run. I am single and have a one year old daughter having used both donor egg and sperm to conceive, so she is not genetically related to me at all. I went through the "double whammy" of coming to terms with having treatment on my own and using donor sperm after my relationship broke up, then after losing a baby that was genetically mine and responding less and less well to the IVF drugs after repeated treatments, I also moved forward with using donor eggs. 

Something that nobody has pointed out so far, is that all of us who have responded to your post (with donor conceived children) have come to terms with our decision to use a donor to have our families. Our posts may seem very calm and composed, but there is a grieving period to go through when you discover that you need to use a donor to have a family, it is an integral part of the process, and it's very tough.

I clearly remember a time of great turmoil before I moved forward with my treatment - feeling a failure because my friends had children naturally with their partners and my relationship hadn't worked out so I needed to use donor sperm, feeling stupid because I had wasted time in a relationship rather than starting treatment earlier (if I'd not spent time with my ex it's more likely I would have been successful with my own eggs and not needed donor eggs), feeling as if I was being punished in some way, feeling angry (why me?), and feeling very, very scared and very sad that this was not how I envisaged having a baby .... I clearly remember walking up and down outside the clinic for ages, crying, before I had my first consultation. I couldn't even utter the words "donor sperm" without bursting into tears!

What I mean to say, is that it's normal to go through a whole range of emotions when you get the initial diagnosis - nobody wakes up one day and says "I think I'll use donor sperm/ eggs rather than having a child that is genetically related to me!".

I had counselling for a couple of months to get my head around the idea of donor conception, and even during treatment and pregnancy I had collywobbles, wondering whether I would be able to bond with my baby, wondering what she would look like etc. 

Now I have my precious daughter, I know that donor conception wouldn't have been my first choice, but it definitely isn't second best, and I am so incredibly grateful to the amazing, kind donors who helped me to have her. I couldn't love her any more, and she brings joy to everyone she meets.  I will always feel sad that I wasn't able to have my own genetic child (and that I lost the baby that was genetically mine), but at the same time, I am so, so happy to have my gorgeous daughter - those feelings of sadness don't cancel each other out or disappear, but I'm able to live with them very comfortably. And if I hadn't used donors, then my cheeky, inquisitive, happy little girl wouldn't be who she is - her own little wonderful person.

I hope that helps in some way - moving forward to have a donor conceived baby doesn't mean that you're not entitled to feel sad that you haven't had your own genetic child, even when the baby is here, but the joy and happiness that the baby brings means that you don't dwell on these feelings, and you concentrate on being the best parent you possibly can to this amazing miracle that you have been blessed with.

Rose xx


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## Lil Elvis

Mike,

The only imprtant thing about donor gametes is that you need to be 100% sure that you are doing the right thing for you, as a potential family. Your original post talks about a child playing a violin or winning at sports .... and if this is what you want from a child then you shouldn't have one at all - natural, donor, adoption. If this is what a Dad means then mine should have me and my sister handed over to care as neither of us have 'followed' him in any way. He was sporty and neither of us are. He is an Oxford MA in Inorganic Chemistry - while I am a graduate in Literature and History and my sister left school at 16. We are definitely his children, but also totally different. I am actually totally liberated because I had help from a donor - I am happy to accept my daughter for who she is ... her own, unique person. If she shows a preference for any of my leanings then that will be great, a connection we will share. But if she wants to follow another path that will be fine too - I might learn some stuff I don't know now. The only thing I want to do is to be her Mother and encourage her to be the best person she can be.

I would never say that someone should go down the path of using a donor because it isn't necessarily the right choice for all. Just take a deep breath and some time to work it through before you say yes or no. I am sure your wife will be waiting for you, even if it takes a long time, because she married you for who you are rather than as a sperm-donor. She will wait because she knows that you will make a wonderful father .... it is easy to just get 'jiggy with it' and have a child but a 'real man' will have thought through the whole meal rather than just enjoy the apperitif.

We don't expect to 'turn you' to acceptance, just that you think it through a little more. If this takes a while then that is what it needs - but you both deserve to work it through rather than throw in the towel so soon.

That you have even sought advice shows that you are a caring person so please don't give up on your wife and share this journey together.

Caroline xxx


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## Lil Elvis

... And  Some might be sure that using a donor is totally wrong for them, but the fact that you are questionning the idea means that your internal debate is on-going. Continue to question, to ask advice ... to find the way that is right for you.


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## C0nfused

Mike, 

When you go down the donor route before you sign any consent forms you have an appointment with a councellor who you and your wife can talk to (individually or together) and they may be able to help you get your thoughts about the pro's and con's of using a donor. 

IMHO if you do go ahead with DI treatment, the moment your son or daughter is born all those 'feelings' that you have now will be replaced with those of happiness and love. 

You have to do what is right for you and your DW and I do feel that councelling (together or seperately) might be a good start for you both to get your heads around your diagnosis and your thoughts and feeling like you have a disability. 

I'm glad you are in a better place and hope you continue on that path.

Jenny


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## Ivfmamma

Hi mike, 

I understand what your saying,

Slightly different circumstances here but all relates to the same want for a baby. 

Infertility is a bitter pill to swallow, I lost both my Fallopian tubes due to ectopic pregnancys & can only concieve via ivf, I've countless times told my husband to leave me & find a 'real' woman, I usually say this every month when my period arrives! It does make you feel like a useless tool when your the one who has the issues. I know that feeling too well. 

But do you know what? you can't change it & no amount of feeling sad / upset / angry / resentful etc etc... will make any difference to the situation. 

You have to suck it up & move forwards.

Have you discussed everything with your wife?

Ok so I don't have the donor issue going on so I won't pretend to know how you feel, I can only relate to your infertility side of it. 

If you want that baby so badly that your heart aches every time you think of it, you won't care were the baby comes from.

Hope you can get some counselling & come to terms with it all & have a happy ending with your wife.

Good luck with everything


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## greatgazza

Hi Mike

I didn't find the switch to donor eggs an easy 'no-brainer' AT ALL, you do have to grieve for the loss of your genetic child and with any grieving process there are stages including; anger, sadness etc which  you have to go through before you can come out the other side and find any clarity.  I think we all assume to a certain degree that when we decide the time is right to have a baby we can just get on and do it. I expected to be married with several kids some years ago, yet here I am an older single mum with a donor conceived child. My life is far from what I had imagined.....Not quite the fairytale I had in mind but you know what s**t happens and sometimes life's a b**ch and we have to decide how to handle it.  

I was terrified that when the baby was born I would look at it and think it was a monster, i really did.  I also had many WTF have I done moments during pregnancy, terrified that I wouldn't bond with the baby and not even like it yet be stuck with it but those fears aren't exclusive to donor conception and my friends kept telling me that genetic parents can reject their kids and not have a bond etc.  I also spoke to other parents on here of donor embryo babies who all said 'you'll fall in love with it the minute you see it' but i didn't believe them, being the pessimist and in the past depressive that i have been i thought i would be the exception. But, they were right, I have been so overwhelmed with love for my little boy at times it has brought me to tears.  That's not to say I don't still wish he was genetically mine, i would love it if he were, but i don't think i could love him anymore than i do.

He was a bunch of cells but the person he becomes will be down to me, i will have shaped that and nurtured, fed, protected and taught him to be the happiest and best person he can be.

I really think counselling is a good idea as is talking to other men who have donor conceived children as they will have had many, if not all, the thoughts and feelings you are having right now.  

Take your time, get as much information as you can, process it, talk to your wife A LOT and then see where you are.

As I alluded to before i have suffered depression on and off over the years but i have to say the last year since my beautiful little boy has been born has been one of the best years of my life and I am happier and more content than i have ever been  

A phrase that I have read on here quite a bit which I like is about taking the 'path of least regret' so perhaps try and work out what that is.

Glad you're not in such a dark place, it's a horrible place to be and it's impossible to think clearly when we can't see the wood for the trees but there's no hurry.

Keep us posted and I hope you find a way forward that you're happy with.

GGx


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## DizziSquirrel

Hi Mike 
I am so glad to see you replied  
I hope that over time things work out for you, 
as has been said before the loss of fertility is a bitter pill to swallow, 
and the emotions are so raw, anger & grief being main ones,
time allows us to work through these emotions and find a path we can accept, 
I think of it as a book, with many chapters or a signpost with many paths to choose from each leading to another signpost with maybe fewer or different options. 
I hope whoever gave you this devastating news ( clinic/gp ) follows you up and supports you as you learn to live your life in the shadow of Infertility 
hope to see happy news from you one day x 

~Dizzi~


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

I am glad you are feeling more able to talk about this now and consider it more logically rather that looking like a rabbit at the headlights - like my DH did when he first found his diagnosis and for the 2-3 years afterwards.

If you want to talk there are specialist counsellors from the British Association of Infertility Counsellors. Any clinic that specialises in donor conception will have a counsellor able to help you with the implications and feelings - e.g. London Womens Clinic have a counsellor who you can book an appointment with. It will cost a bit, but it is surely worth it for the rest of your life and your family.

http://www.londonwomensclinic.com/index.php/london/p/fertility_counselling

Incidentally, my DH has just had to look after our 18 month old for the day by himself as I was interviewing at work and LO has flu and can't go to nursery. My DH has been less than confident and holding a bit at arms length due to he own attachment issues from childhood and previous child that was taken away by ex - and I have come home to smiles, a nappy on backwards (but who cares) and talk about how they played with cars, lots of extra cars brought own from step son's room, the car mat in the lounge and the sofas pushed out and animated talk about how they enjoyed watching Toy Story and Finding Nemo together. I have a problem with work again tomorrow and he has offered to take another day off himself! Never thought this would happen 

/links


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

One other point that I have not seen here, but I have heard many times is that when you have the child that you do eventually have they are the one you were meant to have, if you believe in fate.
Many people say once the baby is here that they cannot imagine having any other child and would not change them for the world. Some even say that they accept their infertility, because without it they would not have been blessed with that particular child.  

I could spend time imagining what another child with both our genes might have been like, but I would never know for certain. But I do know for certain that my son is beautiful, unique and charming and I love him completely. I will always have a pang of sadness that we had to go through everything we did to get him and that I will never experience the feelings of that link to my DH, and the potential issues that donor conception will bring when LO starts asking questions or challenging. But my DH already has a genetic child with someone else and that has in no way been easy or plain sailing either, as it was an acrimonious split. I have had to experience my DH having a link to an ex that I can not have with him.   

But I have to get on with it and make the best of the situation I have been given. I think I am a more rounded and experienced person as a result of my reproductive struggle, and oh how I appreciate what a wonderful gift we have been given. One that I will cherish forever. It is also not just us that benefits from having a wonderful little person in our lives - the grandparents dote on him, aunts, friends, neighbours - everyone loves him and he brings so much happiness to everyone, it is 100% worth every minute and every penny of our struggle.


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## VEC

Hi Mike

When I mentioned talking to someone I meant a counsellor who specialises in donor conception.  Chatting with friends would be great but I think what would help would be to talk to someone who is informed about all aspects of donor conception.  Some of your assumptions in your original post have already been challenged on here, and it would be good IMO to chat through these assumptions so your gut feeling is better informed.

I agree that donor conception is not for everyone.  but I also agree with Rose, most of us who end up using donors go through a grieving process first, and it can be a miserable, miserable process.  But if it helps you make a decision you're happy with, either way, then it will help you and your wife decide your next move.

All the best
Martha


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## Mistletoe (Holly)

Also another thing I have heard and I agree with is the notion that your child, that YOU choose to create with donor sperm, is a child that no one else created, as without you going to the clinic and undergoing treatment, that child would not exist.

The donor did not create them. They left a sperm sample at a clinic on the notion of helping others. If you did not choose to go to the clinic the sperm sample would stay there for 10 years and then be thrown away.

It is you and your wife that created the child, together. So it is very much your child. The child does not have another Daddy. The sperm donor does not want to be their Daddy - they wanted to help others to have a family and they have their own family to worry about.

When I went for my baby's 8 week check with the doctor, I mentioned that my DS was donor sperm conceived as some things about family history came up. I am open about conception as I feel it is a taboo subject that no one talks about properly that needs to be eliminated and made more normal for the sake of the children. Interestingly, my GP told me that when he was a medical student he was a sperm donor. I told him that people like us are so completely grateful to people like him, and thanked him. A sperm donor has to put themselves through a lot - many trips to the clinic, finding out if they have nasty infectious diseases or genetic disorders that they may not have wanted to know about, finding out if they themselves are fertile - 100s of potential donors are turned down as they are not suitable. To put yourself forward like this is brave for people you don't even know!

My doctor said that the subject came up at a dinner party once and he said he had been a sperm donor and all the guests were shocked and asked him how he could have done that? - and he answered that ''it makes people happy''


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## wehavethreecats

Hi Mike
I've been reading this thread with great interest and much empathy for what you are going through. 

I was told (rather abruptly) that i wouldn't be able to have a child without donor eggs (or that the chances were so slim it seemed absurd to even think it would be possible). 

I was shocked and felt a whole raft of other emotions. I felt let down by my body, i felt angry (including at my partner who sort of accepted it with so much ease it felt as though he hadn't understood how hard it was for me), i felt like i wasn't a 'proper woman'.

Over time, and (mostly) through communicating with the wise people on this site, i have come to a position where it feels okay.  To be honest, I don't think i will ever "come to terms with it"  because i don't see it as previously being:"I'm not okay with it" moving to "now i am not okay with it".  I think it is a process, where i will continue to think about new areas where the fact that the children were donor conceived comes to the front of my mind. So, I know it feels right to be where i am now; and i knew it was right when we signed on with a clinic specialising in donor treatment. I knew it was right when we started treatment. And, I know it feels right to be proudly sitting here with two babies growing in me, that have no genetic link to me, but that i already worry for, and have imagined futures for.  

Not having a genetic link will be something which enters my mind, I am sure, even when the babies have grown into toddlers and beyond.  But i do believe that through thousands and thousands of years of human civilization, people have proven that caring for someone is more important than genetic link.  Even as recently as 100 years ago, families with too many children to support would 'give' children to couples without kids to look after. Adoption: similar.  And as many women on this thread have said, it takes more than a single sperm to make a dad. 

We got a book called: Mommies, Daddies, Donors and Surrogates which plots out a number of the kind of dilemmas which you are thinking about - and takes a very useful stance on engaging with the fear/worry/hope/hopelessness of thinking about donor conception.  It feels like an honest approach, which can be helpful in recognising how valid a lot of emotional responses are.  It is also an option for starting to think things through if formal counselling doesn't appeal, or at least doesn't feel like the right step just now.  

A book on epigenetics which i have read the first 3 chapters of (!) may also be of interest:  Google Nessa Carey and the Epigenetic Revolution.  It's a pop-science book (if you're into that sort of thing).  

Do let us know how you're getting on thinking this through.  It's not easy. But making the right decision is important so take your time.  I know many of us sound like such hard line advocates of you accepting a donor - but i am sure that we'd all agree that the most important thing is making the right decision, whatever that is. 

Good luck.  

3cats
x


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## BroodyChick

I've just read a great book that may help you, Mike: 'Experiences of Donor Conception'.

It describes the journey an infertile woman or man goes through, has plenty of examples of all sorts of perspectives including donor conceived children etc.
The point is, nobody knows how they will feel about anything in 10 years' time! And when your child/ren achieve anything amazing, hopefully all you'll feel is proud!
There is also no need to use an unknown, 'cuckoo' donor. Perhaps you might feel more comfortable considering someone you already know, or who you can meet before your tries (online for example). In that case, they can reassure you they don't want your child.

The whole thing is so clinical anyway, no sperm will touch your wife's vagina at any point! I only say this to get this nasty image out of your head. A fully formed embryo is placed into your wife's womb for IVF, and you can be in the room with her and watch your embryo nestle in when this happens. This is a priviledge not shared by many 'bio' dads!

Lastly: do not leave your wife over this. You got married, man the hell up and stick with it! You will come to a solution together, do not take the decision out of her hands! It may take her years to meet anyone else, if she even wants to or is lucky enough for this to happen. Just check the 'single women' forum to see how many of us were left by uncommitted partners in the past. A baby needs two parents, ideally, and I hope you can decide to be a man and be one of them.


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## Tommi

BroodyChick said:


> A baby needs two parents, ideally


Really Broody?


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## welshginge

Mike - my partner is not & never will be genetically related to our son. She would kill for him - she scares the sh*t out of me sometimes.


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## Ivfmamma

welshginge said:


> She would kill for him - she scares the sh*t out of me sometimes.


  funny welshginge!

bless your oh  x


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## Mrs CW

welshginge said:


> Mike - my partner is not & never will be genetically related to our son. She would kill for him - she scares the sh*t out of me sometimes.


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## UK-Canuck

Mike

Not sure if you're still out there, but just came across this thread accidentally, but hubby and I are about to embark on a donor egg cycle, so not the something I appreciate, but we've been through a very rubbish year to get to this point and are now after seeking a lot of people in the same situation through counsellors, Infertility Network & Donor Conception Network, we feel much better and excited to be starting imminently 

Anyway, I haven't read all the replies to the posts, but one thing that's struck me is the I'm delighted I won't be passing on my fertility issues to any children we have - daughters specifically as they apparently take after their mothers.  I'm delighted that I'm not going to be passing on my crap prematurely failing eggs or the pain of endometriosis and going through a miserable laparoscopy to supposedly make it better. 

So how about being happy you're not passing on your "disability"?

I would never leave my husband if there he had infertility issues and thankfully he hasn't dumped me either. We loved each other for two years before we got married and started trying to start a family, although it was ultimately clear from very early on that's what we both wanted. I even had to drag him to a marriage preparation course at my Catholic Church before we got married (pre-req to married there), but we both actually enjoyed it and were even more sure of our "match" and through a little game of "close your eyes and hold up the number of fingers for the number if fingers of children you want" we were pleased we both held up two - although I was pretty sure we both would and felt smugly united over the couples who held up a different number of fingers. 

We are now installed "in the suburbs" in a lovely family house that we did up from roof to damp proof course and everything in between, thankfully nothing structural (v stressful for a couple of years), we are in a great catchment area for local schools and nearly every other bugger around us has a family. Feeling we've done everything right, but that's not going to change my eggs and we still want a family, but if it doesn't happen through donor ( Plan B) or adoption as a possible "Plan C", we still love the house, the area and have beautiful parks and the river near by, so we will just install some totally non-child friendly kitchen, have parties and holidays (and I will definitely get a dog, which hubby has always said no to  ) but I would never expect infertility to be a "deal breaker" in our marriage. 

Hope things have worked out for you now
Canuck


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## GlobalTraveller

I haven't been on this site for a pretty long time, but I would like to put a donor perspective on here even though the original 'Mike' is probably long gone.  My first comment is that UK donors are probably not going to be some kind of "alpha" super men (I know I am not).  Unlike American sperm banks that pay the big bucks for the perfect genes, UK sperm banks can't be as choosey and can really only afford to rule out people with serious genetic issues.  My only real qualification to be a donor was sperm that would survive freezing and met the minimum guideline to be acceptable.

Sperm donor is actually most commonly used as an insult to men who are seen as not living up to their parental responsibilities, so you don't really see anyone going around boasting about being one.  At the end of the day all the genes that I have are shared with so many other people that it make no real difference to the world if they are passed on or not.  The only unique genes that most people will have are one that are mutated and probably faulty.  What really matters is how a person is raised and what they do with their life.  

I hope you have found some peace with your situation, I can't claim to know what it is like for you, but I was really upset when the clinic rang me and said that they would not be able to use two of the samples that I produced because they had not frozen well.  Even not being able to produce frozen sperm for people I didn't know made me feel bad so I can only imagine what it is like when it is someone you care deeply about.


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## mike99

Dear Reader,

3.5 years have passed since my infertility news.... I wanted to share some advice to my fellow man and woman who might be embarking on this unwanted journey.

The infertility scar is still there but it is "somewhat" healed. I can even joke about it with myself at times. It took a damn lot of pain, work, energy and money to get the wound to scar and not continue bleeding day in / day out.

*How I tackled the problem:*

1) About 6 months of weekly therapy (55 a shot!) I went into therapy hoping that the Councillor would convince me to go back packing around the world. (I was secretly hoping I can spend the rest of my days in Thailand ) but I came out of his office after six months ready to accept DS. In essence I think it was a mixture of time (the best healer?) and picking at the matter everyday until I was sure I exhausted all avenues. My advice, find a Councillor who is male and has children ideally not his own. (This was not my choice, but he could relate a lot to what I said)

2) Really considering my options and their eventual outcome and the irreversiblity of my options.

3) Reading a ton of self help books some of which helped and some of which did not.

4) Journaling, writing letters to my would be genetic child and telling them good bye

*What convinced me to accept DS*

1) I believe I am good Dad material
2) If I decided to leave my wife, I would have not had a shot at being a Dad. (I know controversial (and selfish?) but it was part of my decision process)
3) I realized I did want to be a Dad and raise a child to whatever s/he wanted it to be.

*Some of the good and the bad things from this experience*

*Good things:*

1) As soon as I got the result of my infertility I told my wife. I literally called my wife at work told her "I am outside your office" I immediately spilled the beans. With my infertility sentence/results in hand.

2) I told my wife that if the situation was reversed I would just walk away. It was the hardest thing to do, I wanted to make it easy for her to walk away. (She did not. I was never sure that I would have done so anyway). However this liberated me from many moments of guilt later on. (Selfish? maybe but I wanted to make it easier for her to leave if she wanted to). I have no (or slightly less) doubts about the situation today because of this.

3) Therapy - worth every cent of it.

*Bad Things:*

1) I rushed the surgery Testicular biopsy *[WARNING DO NOT RUSH THIS do your research ]*  (this is the surgery which cuts open the testicular sack, and then the "surgeon/butcher" proceeds to slice and dice your balls to find sperm). I rushed the surgery because I thought I owed my wife a lot, since she did not leave me for a "real man". You owe nothing to no one, those are your balls we are talking about, they make testosterone which makes you a MAN. The decision to slice and dice has to be yours. period.

The doctor Bernard "the young" (I wish I could write his full name, but I had enough of this story) _ (Sidenote If you are in Belgique beware!!) Assisted Reproduction Centre _

a) Did not inform me about the lack of a microscope at the operating theater. What this means, is when the butcher cut open my balls he sent the pieces of my testicle to the laboratory down the hall rather than having a microscope in the theater. I am not a medical professional to determine the impact of the lack of microscope in the theater but if you are digging a hole in the wall, you'd better have all the tools at hand otherwise you are going to mess something up.

d) When I asked him about the pain, he never gave me a solid reply. When i asked about the complications he told me that it was on the low end of the spectrum. 
In my case I had signed up for a hell of a ride. After he the "surgeon" was finished with me, I had immense testicular pain and prostate infections for the next two years. (years is not a typing mistake). My left testicle felt like it was being kicked several times a day by an MMA fighter who had a grudge against the world. It took two years for the pain to ebb into nothingness. Two long years in which I rarely (1 Dafalgam a month) took pain killers, as I was afraid that the more drugs I put in the less chance I have to regain my fertility. The pain ranked 9 on a 1 to 10 scale. At one point a neurologist was considering cutting the nerve or giving me epilepsy drugs to control the pain. (I refused both)

b) As soon as the operation ended a nurse came beside my bed and told me "sorry we found nothing", then walked away. Still under the influence of anesthesia I just broke down, I had to be given a sedative as I went bonkers.

c) My left testicle felt like it was being jack hammered soon after the op. After a day or two I went again to this doctor for help. (I fainted on the way to his office with the pain). He told me that he could not do much and ushered me quickly to the emergency (I had the impression he did not want the one's in line to be butchered to have any second thoughts) . I went again to the clinic and found two of his colleagues which where extremely helpful checked my tennis balled sized ball sack and then recommend a good urologist.

d) At one point I made an appointment with a legal firm specialized in medical prosecution. Their advice is you do not have a case - cause and effect are not strong enough.

[If you think this was tough, consider the 250 people in Italy who where crushed in their sleep last night.]

2) Did not do my fertility test earlier. (I had a vague suspicion as I was having unprotected sex with my wife for 6 years, using the withdrawal method as contraception. )

*Jury is still out on a few decisions I made*

1) Told my family but not hers (My decision)

2) Told some of my friends (Sometimes I suspect that they spread the news further than what I wanted)

*Efforts to regain my fertility* - Ongoing

1) WiFi resistant underwear

2) Bottled water

3) Have not had an alcoholic drink in three years and counting

4) Changed to a less stressful job

*What's happening now.*

In brief ... my wife is 7.5 months pregnant. Unfortunately It took several miscarriages, and those where tough on her, but she has showed strength and courage throughout the journey. If it was not for her, I would probably be a tanned hobo in Panama, writing a different sort of letter to you today.

*In conclusion*
Dear infertile man or woman on the other side of the screen, the lessons I learnt are
1)Do not make any rush decisions
2)Do not let anyone push you, or the mass of positive stories about the DS convince you it is the way to go. The decision has to be from the inside not the outside
3)Do not be afraid to explore options which you have not considered before
4)Careful who you tell about your disability

Cheers
Mike


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## bundles

Mike  

When I saw this post had been added to I was so hoping it was by you & not some newbie offering you advice   I've just re-read the thread from the start & am so happy that you are nearing the end of this first journey   Congratulations on your imminent fatherhood and I'm so sorry for your losses, they are never easy.  If your dedication to your child is only a fraction of your dealing with your issues, you will make a great dad   My OH never really wanted children as he didn't think he'd be good at it   He's finally admitted he loves it & is better than he thought   of course this makes me want to punch his face in, as if he'd come around sooner I'd have been younger & I may not have had the miscarriages !! But then I wouldn't have the two beautiful children I now have, and I wouldn't change them for the world. Sometimes we just have to roll with it & accept what fate has in store for us  
Good luck & let us know how things go  

Bundles x


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## mike99

hello all,

You can see that my first post was on the Jan 13, 2013 . Turbulent times for me.

My son is now five years old, I do not regret my decision of having him through a donor (my wife said yes I was the bottle neck) and I would do it all over again.

Let me comment on my own post from 8 years ago.
_
I still agree with this part, the difference is that humiliation is a self inflicted emotion, you should be your own judge and if the reasons for infertility are of your own doing and you choose to be sad about that, you might be right. What if though it was not of your doing. Today I would downgrade my infertility to a sadness. When I was younger at the back of my mind there was always the fact that I was living with a fertile woman, which brought expectations from everybody. When you get older, these expectations become less pronounced and with that the disability less important.

It is what it is sugar coating it may lead you to alley ways and dead ends however this does not mean that one should focus only on the negative side of this disability. There are options to correct the outcome, which may be good enough for some._
.


mike99 said:


> Open letter to possible DI Dads,
> 
> I have recently been offered an invitation the DI dad club by my beautiful 27 year old wife. We have been together 12 years and married three years ago. After a painfull series of news and tests including surgical intervention, conclusion is *I am as sterile as a salt lake*.
> 
> I read a lot, and *all posts/articles and comments seem to try and sugar coat things* especially to the Dads. *Having some one else's sperm inserted into your wife's vagina because you are disabled is the biggest humilation a man can take*. All this sugar coating about being a DI dad sounds fishy to me. Most comments revolve around anyone can be a father but few can be a Dad.


_I no longer agree with myself here, I see more the Cuckoo situation in other kinds of relationships. When a man and woman choose of their own accord for the wife to be impregnated with another man's sperm, then the man doing all the work is not a Cuckoo._



mike99 said:


> At the moment (for the last two years) I am in pain. However I think it *will be much worse if I accept my wife's invitation to the DI dad club. Every morning, every evening, all the time I will spend rearing some other's man genes*. I will be the victim of an Alpha male Cuckoo. Do you know the cukcoo lays his eggs in others birds nest and then just leaves ?
> 
> Cuckoo - Wikipedia
> _''About 56 of the Old World species and 3 of the New World species are brood parasites, laying their eggs in the nests of other birds.[14] These species are obligate brood parasites, meaning that they only reproduce in this fashion.''_
> 
> The above how *I* feel about this DI business.



_I completely disagree with what I wrote, being an active dad will have a huge influence on your children. If your child chooses to become a painter, doctor or simply a good citizen. You will have a huge part in the responsibility of pushing him on the right path. The donor will have provided some building blocks, but not much more, it takes a lot more to be a Dad then to be able to produce a few drops of sperm._



mike99 said:


> When these kids grow up, and play the violin beautifully, win a prize, come second in a sports competition, have their first fist fight get their degree, start a business or/and get a brilliant job.* I know how I will feel deep down - good work Mr Cuckoo*.


_I did not know my reaction when my son would be born, I took a slight risk, I worked hard with therapy, mediation, food and all kinds of things to get my head sorted out on this. It was the hardest thing I did but in the end glad I did it._



mike99 said:


> Who am I to deny the kids of my wife a *real* Father and Dad ? *Who am I to deny my wife a real Man to her a real Father, Dad to her children ?* I think all this hunky dory fairy tale about two people being a unit does not make much sense. In nature if one does not produce offspring he is soon side lined he would be at the end of the wolf pack, the lowest rank, the reject. The last one who eats after all the rest, the last one on the trail, the first one to be sent as gun fodder when a fight breaks out.
> 
> I am letting my beloved wife, my life companion go. *It is the last manly and honorable thing I can do on this planet.* It is the most reasonable, logic and obvious solution to my disability. It is painful, depressing, shameful and most of all humiliating. This is how I feel and think, if you are a to be DI Dad and you feel different treasure those feelings as you are lucky. I do not. I have no place in the Darwinian life. *I hope some day I will come across her, holding beautiful babies and with a real man/husband that loves and respects her.*
> 
> Am I making sense ?
> Mike
> PS: Do not sugar coat your answers please for those women who go on a rant about love, please do not. I think love does exist but I am practical about it. I do not want to sacrifice some one else's life because of my disability and because now she feels pity and has some shadows of the love she used to feel for me. (She has not recognized that she is choosing status quo and non change for her own long term misery and short term benefit)
> 
> /links


_We are planning to have another baby through a donor ...._


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## tanda

HI Mike, just came across this thread and just wanted to say congratulations, what an amazing journey you have been on! Im so happy to hear that you and your wife you made it through together. Your initial post was so clearly full of raw pain and its amazing the lengths you have gone to to process this and reach the other side. Good luck with the next round of IVF  

p.s. cant help thinking that your experiences would make a great book to help other men stuck in the same situation...


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