# Secondary Infertility, Funding & General



## OJW

Hi everyone - new to this board so there may already be a thread I can join.

History - had child together in 1999 naturally.  Me - ok.  DH - low sperm counts which appear to be getting worse over time.  Given options this week of IVF or ICSI.  Does everyone have to fund themselves if they already have a child or does it depend where you live?  Also, anyone got any advice on IVF / ICSI and which one they chose?

Last question - I guess everyone is different but it seems hard to draw a line on keep trying or go the treatment route...  Did anyone else find it hard to accept secondary infertility?


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## emmajordan

Hi I have listed the two same queries and haven't had a huge amount of answers. This category doesn't seem very popular - which makes me feel unusual.

I think it is because most people suffering from secondary infertility go on the IVF and the ISCI boards so no one talks here that much.

I do know that if you have secondary infertility no PCT's (the trusts who govern your local NHS) will not pay for IVF or ISCI.

If you have sperm "challenges" you will have to have ISCI - IVF is unlikely to work.

I have had all my investigations paid for by my private medicine. The only think I am paying for at the moment is my acupuncture etc. 

The only thing I have learned by hanging out on the boards and asking a lot of questions is that most of the IVF clinics look as if they cost the same - but in some the drugs really bump up the costs. ARGC - with the highest take home baby rate (live births) is £8,000 per cycle - thats a lot of money.

If money is an issue then the spanish and eastern european clinics are well regulated and much much cheaper. If you look at the abroadies link there are many women going to CERAM in spain. THey boast a very high sucess rate (the spanish doctors are the best) and it costs about £2,500. If you are prepared to go to the Ukraine it will only cost you £1,000. They have total donor anonimity (As does Spain) and they can put in more than 2 Eggs. The more they put in the more likely it is that they will suceed.

You may know all the above already !

I don't know how long you can leave it. It is certainly is starting to drive my crazy and its only been about 16 months ! I can not make up my mind what to do at all ! I think I might try TCM (traditional chineese medicine) there is a special fertility clinic in Harley street and they have a 40 per cent sucess rate.  I am already having acupuncture and I enjoy it so I think I might go the whole hog with that and if it doesn't work. Then IVF. 

But I am changing my mind like the weather at the moment

I wish you luck what ever you choose but I totally understand wanting another child (or two) !

xx ems xx


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## jan27

Hi OJW

I have 2 children from a previous marriage naturally but now find myself with a new wonderful husband and wanting a baby with him (he has no children).  We both have problems and we are waiting to start icsi soon.  We have to fund all treatment ourselves and have decided to limit it to 3 attempts of icsi and have taken out a loan to pay for it for £11,000.  We are financially stretched so after the money runs out we will leave it to nature.

I know it varies between PCT's and they all have varied criteria, but the fact you have a child will probably not help to get NHS funding.  Why dont you contact your PCT, our local one is on line and the criteria is listed there for IVF.

Hope this helps

Good luck

Jan27


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## emmajordan

Yes some PCT's pay for the drugs and some pay for iui's too. Just search on google for yours and send them an email to ask. Mine took about 2 days to reply in the negative.

begining of appealing their decision but at the moment they won't tell me how to do it !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

If any one knows do let me know xx


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## Cloud9

hello everyone   

Just found this thread.  There is soooooo much to rewad on this site I could take all day and still not finish. I have been feeling a little uncomfortable posting on the other sites as we have a 5 year old already (naturally and within 3 months of trying) and it feels that I should have less cause to be upset at having problems now as we have a child already.   

We have been ttc our second baby since March last year, with male issues to deal with now and have our first appointment mid March at Lister with our name down at ARGC but they seem quite slow and apparently have had a large influx of applictaions innthe last few months.

We are going to have to fund it all ourselves, we also go to a local private Dr, I lost faith i the NHS practice a while ago on another matter,  who is lovely but does seem to be a little too heavily caught up with warning me that at 40 (only just!!) fertility gets less.  I am trying not to buy into any negative comments or thoughts at this time.- I asked our NHS GP and in our area of Surrey funding stops at 37 and if you have a child already they are not interested!!  we are lucky to be able to fund it ourselves but it is a daunting figure to have to pay out.

We probably have two more times for it to happen naturally before the process will start !!  thats fun and games trying to juggle ovulation with desire with tiredness with daughter waking up - she had a chocolate biscuit and video breakfast this morning  -she couldn't work out whether I was joking when I suggested it!! oh well you have to resort to that sometimes .  Also going to give  self-insemination a try  - oh well i really have lost all cares now with the focus only being on giving anything a go at least once.

My relexologist says to keep your feet warm at all times as this is supposed to help conceiving it also puts less strain on your kidneys apparently 

We are most likely goig to have to go ICSI route - I don't think I have the luxury of trying anthing owethr than the route with the highest possiblitiy of success.  I do not want to have to go through more cycles than absolutely necessary.  The drugs scare me greatly.

I will visit this site again - sorry not to have addressed comments to individuals but once I start writing my message I don't seem to be able to get back to the message board without loosing what I have written at that time - if you understand what i mean    Just noticed the message are down at the bottom of the page!!!!!!  

Bye for now


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## emmajordan

Yes no way would I wait for the NHS to do the tests- we'll all be waiting until we are 50 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pinkpear

dear cloud9

i am in the same boat as u secondary infertility now with male factor. we have a 3 yr old son conceived naturally. have lister appointment mid march too but hoping to use satellite service in Hove for scans etc
Don't feel guilty for posting on other threads. hoping for Isci but will wait for appointment. DH on 3 lots of pills and waiting for lycopene to arrvive hopfully SA will be better so may switch to IVF. i was so shocked  when after ttc since DS was born that DH had MF. lots of emotional turmoil   but felt had to go this route as carrot dangled and if we hadn't taken the chance will only regret it mid forties. i do get fed up of people asking when we are going to have another and comments like he'd share better if he had a sibling!!!!

good luck to u  let me know how u get on. just think the cost of IVF is nothing compared to the cost of having children over 18 years!!!!!

love pinkpear


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## Cloud9

Thank you so mujch for your message - it really is very nice to receive a personal reply.

Where I live it is quite usual for the families to be 3-4 children - we are quite an oddity, I feel, being with only one child.  I always wanted a bit of a gap, I breast fed for 3 years and it took a while for me to feel I had recovered from a difficult preg'y, pre-enclampsia and CS birth.  We also did not "do "anything for a long time and went through quite a depressed patch.  However, I only really ever considered that I needed to be healthy etc I did not think that the MF would be a problem  -  
Not that DH would have done a SA any earlier than he did ie at New Year.  He had always mainitinbed that there was nothing wrong wioth his lads as he had already had a child with me!!!!

We have not been gIven any tablets by the Dr and none were suggested.  DH has another SA next week it will be interesting to see if the changes we have made to his life style and diet have made any difference.  I do hope they are not worse!!!!

I also cannot believe how nosy and insensitive people can be regarding siblings.  I do know of a couple of couples who have chosen to only have one child but I did not ever want that for our daughter and I would alike another baby now.

Sadly I believe that I was a couple of weeks preg last March when we flew to Prague.  The plane suction pulled all my insides down on take off very strongly and a couple of days later I think I lost it.

Our appointment is on 15 March in the morning.  I was filling the forms in last night.  

It does make you laugh when I remember being warned when I was in my 20s that it only takes one sperm so be careful!!!!

I can tell I am stressed about this pronlem as I tend to drift around until late in the nmight, doing my work ( I am self-employed and work from home) or reading this site!!!!

I hope your appointment goes as well as you could wish for and hope to speak to you again soon.  I find I lose the threads and forget where I posted any messages.

Bye for now


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## Cloud9

Dear Pinkpear

The last message I posted was in reponse to yours - but I forgot to address it!

I feel quite down at today, partly because i stayed up too late.

I am trying to hve a really productove day on my work today as this always makes 
me feel in control again.

Speak soon


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## OJW

Cloud9 and Pinkpear - We had a child naturally 6 years ago.  Been ttc for 2½ years now.  I can't believe we have MF either.  Do your men know why things suddenly changed or do you think it could always have been like that but were lucky to have your first child?  My mind runs away with me thinking of what could have cuased it or if there is no reason.  I thought NHS might invetigate like they would with a woman but it seems not.  Will see if the lifestyle changes make any difference and take it from there in 3 months I guess.

Jan27 - Thanks for your note, at least you have made a decision and can then try and stick to it.  We are a bit in limbo still not accepting any problems I think.  I did say if we go ICSI route we need to say how many tries and stick to it or could seem never-ending.  Sometimes you just have to accept it, I am one of those poeple that thinks things are not meant to be sometimes.

emmajordan - It does seem like you are penalised for having a child naturally to begin with, why shouldn't everyone get one try if they have medical problems.


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## Cloud9

Dear OJW

Thanyou for your reply.  i know that DH has been increasingly stressed and not very happy at work since Dec 2000.  That with 15 coffees a day, late nights and extreme triedness have done it I believe.

I think we ought to continue the natural route for a couple more months to see if we are able to achieve naturally on his side but he is convinced that time is running out rapidily.  He is right to be conscous of the time passing and so is in a little bit of  a panic.


Its a fine line between trying to improve things naturally and takinmg that tiome and not leaving ICSI too late. I belive that things happen for a purpose and at the right time so will trust that the first attempt will come at the right time for us and so too for you.


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## royall

Hello OJW, you are not alone!!
We have secondary infertility & tcc nrly 3 yrs now, just embarking on IUI. The nhs was helpful up to a point but the docs seemed to think that eventually it would just happen as it did before. However now at the point of iui my consultant advised us to go pvt as if my insemination day falls on a day when she's not around then I wont be able to have it ie i have to ovulate on a monday or wednesday to enable her to do an nhs treatment! Ridicuklous! I know our pct won't fund ivf for me because I already have a child. Yet secondary infertility causes as much grief & heartache as primary, yes we have a child but we also know what we are missing.
My daughter is as desperate as we are for her to have a sibling. Its heartbreaking.

There are very few "only children" at her school & I find it traumatic sometimes just picking her up from school seeing all the expanding families. 

We have limited funds for treatment maybe for 2iuis & 1 ivf so I have to face the possibility it may not happen for us, We are looking into adoption too so if nothing happens in the next few months I think we will be heading that route. 

This site has been fantastic for support, its very isolating particularly for those in our position, initially I felt guilty for being on here as so many of the girls have not been as fortunate as I have having a wonderful daughter already. But they have been incredibly supportive.

Best of luck to you  & hope this helps


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## pinkpear

dear ojw

not sure if dh MF is new or not maybe our ds was a miracle-i mean it took us 3 years ttc him. but after by DS ws born starteed using condoms-DH but then DH started producing blood in his sperm and basically hasn't stopped. may be it was due to infection who knows he has been fully inx and luckily no sign(so far) of cancer so we just have to put up with it. i think this is what is destroying all his sperm so poor man as well as coping knowing his count is low we have a regular reminder of why too!!!

love pinkpear


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## OJW

hiya pinkpear - Sorry to hear about DH, at least he is clear of anything nasty currently.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be for him.  I know what you mean about people asking when you are going to have another, I get it all the time from family, friends and colleagues.  I sometimes wish years ago I had said we aren't having another but as I'd said we would at some point it is hard to go back and say well actually we probably can't!  I keep thinking I might tell family but can't stand the thought of their sympathy, (I seem to come from a fertile family!!)  

Hi royall - I know I'm not alone but it sometimes feels like it as there are only a handful of people aware of our situation none of which are family.  I even lie to them as to why I've been to the docs which is not good.  DH didn't seem to mind whether we told family or not until we found out about his low counts, that seemed to make him change his mind.  Ovulating on certain days !!  Can't believe the NHS sometimes.

Anyway off to bed for me, got early start tomorrow.


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## suziq

Hi yea im so glad i found this page. I have two children from my 1st marrage 18 and 14 and also feel very guilty about wanting more. I havent actually said i have kids to any1 on the other threads! I did fall pregnant with my son at an early age, 20 and my daughter 24. My marriage didnt work out and i hav been married to my lovely husband for 8 years. Never thought we would have any problems as id obviously had kids. Was very shocked that we didnt conceive naturally. There is nothing wrong with either of us so i really do think that age plays a bid factor in it.
Have been ttc for 5 years and said i would never resort to ivf, i saw what my sister went through after 3 failed attempts. Am now 5 days post et and trying to be positive. My dh would be a wonderful dad. To top it all my ex and his wife had an unplaned baby last year and were very unhappy bout it, that hurt!!

Now ive got that out of my system, hello to you other sub fertile mums and i wish you the best of luck!

By the way i was very lucky cos my gp funded my drugs for me which saved me a fortune. Will only be once so really hope it works!!


SueXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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## suziq

Hi Lorrie

If i was you i would ask the consultant. I just went to my gp and he said yes straight away, i know im very lucky!, then when i had my consultation i just told the consultant, he wrote me a prescription which i took to my gp and he did a prescription for me. He said that i was very lucky cos most gps wont fund but i do have a very nice gp and he knows what we'v been through, i also have arthritis and had a major op last year so mayb he felt sorry for me??!!

Dont take the word of the secretary wait to speak to the man in charge.

Where are you going for treatment?

How mank kids do you have?



SueXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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## OJW

Hi all

From what I can gather your NHS will fund part of your treatment or drugs if you haven't already got a child together.

Lorrie - hope you getting on ok with your wedding plans, at least you have something else to concentrate on apart from making babies!  We are in the process of selling our house which is stressful in itself but a change from infertility problems.  

How is everyone else getting on?


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## suziq

Hi Lorrie. 
My DH is 35 and also has no children. Would be great to give them both a child of there own. 

Hope it goes well for you both.

Lots of love 
Suexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## OJW

Hi Lorrie

Not moving far as I don't drive and have to stay near school and work.

We are not having any treatment as only got told couple of weeks ago about DH low sperm count.  We were both quite shocked so for now just carry on as normal.  Not really discussed it but doubt we will have any treatment, not only does it cost a lot and we get no funding but I am not good with hospitals.  When I had my daughter I had a water birth with no drugs or intervention, had a bath, a bite to eat and came home!  Perhaps when our life has quitened down a bit we may look into things further, just annoyed that if you have a low count that is it, you don't even have investigations as to why it is low.

Have a good weekend all.


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## suziq

Hi girls.
Good news.*BFP*

Had a bit of a scare on Monday when i started bleeding so did test and nearly passed out with shock BFP. Cos i was bleeding HH decided to have me in for a blood test to check hormone levels. Went today and level was 316 when usually about 25 for day 12 pet! Could be two in there!!
Going for scan in 3 weeks to see how many i have in there!! Bless dh he keeps crying!

So am officially 4 weeks pregnant, cant believe it!

Good luck to you all and hope that you are all as lucky as i feel. 

SueXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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## OJW

suziq - great news I bet you can't believe it, can't wait to hear how many you've got in there.  Take it easy!


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## emmajordan

suziq That is great news congratulations enjoy the next eight months

lots and lots of love

emma


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## emilycaitlin

No, your'e not alone, wanting a second child is even stronger for me than with my first.  Haven't got to IVF stage yet, just waiting for first hopspital appointment, but as far as I know, no funding most places if you've already had a child


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## suziq

Thanks guys. Im still in shock cant quite believe its happened!  The kids are so excieted and DH keeps crying. Im so happy for him hes been such a good step dad im sure he will make the best dad! 

Wishing you all as much luck as iv had and will keep in touch and let you know how many there are in their.

SueXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx


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## suziq

Hi guys. Just thought id check in to see if anyone has had any luck??  

SueXXXXXXXXXX


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## sailorgirl

Hi girls, just found this thread and wanted to post to give you all hope.

My circumstances were exactly the same a OJW.  DS born 1999 - TTC sibling since he was 1 - male factor very low sperm count with poor motility.

Went through everything you guys have chatted about - should we be happy with our lot - feeling guilty about wanting a second etc etc.  Furthermore i had always said I would never go down the IVF route but until you find yourself in this situation you can never say never.

Anyway our consultant basically said that it was a mirical we had our DS and suggested ICSI - as we were trying for a sibling decided to give IUI a go but it was very difficult to fix dates and we gave up after one attempt.  Had ICSI may last year but that was a BFN also.  We had already decided that we would try 3 times and that would be it ad were due to start our second cycle in Dec 05 - however, had the shock of my life as instead of DR over christmas I was pg - naturally - after 5 years of trying.  Did the ICSI kick my cycle back into 'normal business' or were we just very very lucky agian - we shall never know.

The bottom line is you can only do what is right for you but never ever give up hope.

Sailorgirl


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