# Spotting every month 4-5 days before AF



## Wisp

Hi,

Does anyone else experience similar spotting to me before AF arrives.....Every month 4-5 days before AF arrives I start getting small amounts of pinkish/brownish spotting.  This has been happening over the past three/four years, since coming off the pill.  Doctors don't seem to have an explanation for it, a number of GP's said it is probably ovulation bleeding, but it couldnt be that as it would be the wrong time, surely?!  I was on clomid for 8 months last year and that did seem to stop it, but I never had a BFP  .  I have been having acupuncture and chinese herbs since October 2013 and my practitioner said that it is more likely a sign of low progesterone.  Be great to hear from others who have this too or anyone else's views.  Is it even possible to get pregnant while experiencing this spotting?!


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## coucou2009

Wisp,
I had a similar problem. I would have brown discharge for almost up to a week before full on period. My gyn said that it was nothing. But when I saw the fertility specialist and told him, he said that it is possible it could be a lutal phase defect. So began my fertility treatment with clomid in order to improve the ovulation because apparently just because you ovulate does not mean it is a good ovulation or that the second half of your cycle will be strong enough to support egg meets sperm


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## Wisp

Hi coucou2009,

Thank you for your reply. It seems to make sense to me that it is some sort of problem with the luteal phase of my cycle.  Even if I am ovulating okay and the egg happened to be fertilised, my thoughts are that it wouldn't be able to implant because of this defect...would you think the same?!


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## coucou2009

To be honest, I would see a specialist. I know that you need the progesterone for the second half of the cycle as that is a major factor in conception. All the pieces of the puzzle go together in one way or another. Also as my fertility doctor said, this can affect the type of ovulation you are having but not sure what that means in medical terms. ARe you seeing a specialist to help you sort all this out?


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## Pudding34

Hi Wisp!

Your post doesn't say if you have consulted a fertility doctor on this so apologies if you have, if you have only seen your GP go and see a fertility consultant as soon as you can.

GPs know nothing about fertility and treatment it is truly shocking!

The first GP we saw with our private tests showing DH had a count of less than 2mil giving us a less than 3% chance of getting pregnant naturally lectured us for half of our appointment on how to best to get pregnant naturally, I was waiving the results at hi and he still carried on! He also refused to help us get funding as it was "too soon" we were both 34 at the time!

After getting NHS funding through my private Gynea consultant and having two rounds of ICSI both chemical pregnancies I was invited to my GPs to see their "women's specialist" who with all due respect to her had no idea about IVF whatsoever infact I spent the 15 mins I was there educating her on how it all works.

Pudding
X


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## Bethlehem

My first thought would be progesterone/luteal phase defect, but I am not an expert. It's not nothing though! 

I have had the same and starting taking my temperature every morning to identify a definite pattern. Try to find a consultant you trust that listens to you and speak to them about it. Good Luck.


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## sickofwaiting

Hi Wisp

This is interesting, as I used to have brown spotting days before my period. I never thought anything of it, but I've recently found out I have endometriosis, which is indicative of a hormone imbalance, low progesterone. My acupuncturist is helping me to chart my cycle to see what my hormone levels are, and to see how long my luteal phase is. I have to say though, in the past 5 months I've changed my diet quite a lot, cut way down on sugar and dairy and doing more regular exercise and I haven't had the spotting! I also agree with what was said about GP's not knowing anything!!! When I saw mine they just printed out some generic advice from the internet. No-one in the past 2.5 yrs has mentioned charting or cervical fluid or anything that would have been helpful until I started seeing my acupuncturist! She is really helping me. It is a puzzle trying to figure it all out. Xx


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## Wisp

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your replies.  I agree too that GP's just don't seem to have any idea about fertility or our cycles!  I saw at least three who all said the same "oh it's probably ovulation bleeding" and I just knew that it wasnt!  Eventually after almost 2 years TTC (three now) we asked to be referred to the hospital.  I saw a Consultant there who prescribed me Clomid, which I took for 8 months (2013).  That did seem to help the spotting, but the side effcets for me were terrible and sadly it didnt result in a BFP .  I feel that we didnt really receive very good treatment from the Consultant to be honest, she never asked me anything about mine or my DH lifestyle, stress levels, diet, when and how often we were having sex, nothing about cervical fluid or BBT charting (Luckily I had read up on the last two myself!) and she never really gave me a clear answer about the spotting.  I had various tests and internal exams/scans which they said were fine, no cysts, fibroids, blocked tubes etc. She also never, ever asked how we were feeling, which I found bizarre! No emotional support whatsoever. Then she said there was nothing more the NHS could do for us, as DH has children already and we were 'not eligible' for an IVF referral.

Since then I have been seeing a chinese medicine practitioner for acupuncture and chinese herbs.  This seems to have reduced the spotting, but it is still there at the moment, and while it is I can't see that I would ever be able to get a BFP  .  Sending you all lots of good luck wishes


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## sickofwaiting

Wisp - it's awful GPs and consultants only seem to recommend 2 things - IVF or clomid! My friend was put on clomid even though she was ovulating fine! It's really crazy. Have you been charting? That will show you if you have low progesterone or a short luteal phase. There are progesterone creams you can use if you find it is low, and I think there are other options too, I haven't got to that point yet. Chinese herbs are meant to be good, I'm starting them next week. 

Good luck xx


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## Wisp

I know, it seems mad! I think I was ovulating fine too, I had all the signs cervical fluid, rise in temp on BBT and positive O tests.  The blood test also seemed to show I was.  I saw Dr Robert Winston on tv who said that women who are ovulating should not be prescribed clomid as it could actually decrease chances of conception.  My chinese medicine person said the same and that my ovaries would have been working over-time, over producing and it would have been depleting and tiring them out!  She thinks the 8 months I spent on it probably hindered our chances!  I think the NHS just don't know what else to do sometimes.

The herbs seem to be helping, but they do tastes gross! I add honey as that makes it much more bearable and you get used to it...and it'll be worth it if we get the BFP's we are dreaming of! Be good to hear how you get on.

I have been charting....I have my most recent at work with me and the L/P is about 14 days, I think it is usually about that.  My temp does go up after ovulation and stays up, but sometimes there is a bit of a dip again, then it goes back up.  Also I have noticed a sharp dip at day 8/9 each month, but this seems to be tooe early for ovualtion and the tests usually show a rise in LH at day 14/15?! So not sure what that is about?


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## sickofwaiting

Glad the herbs are helping, I didn't realise they would taste gross! Do you make them into a sort of tea or what? I assumed it would be like a vitamin tablet or something haha! I am sure I will get used to the taste. I've realised most gross tasting things are really good for you, nature's a bit weird like that!! 

Your luteal phase is good, not sure about the dip at day8/9 but maybe when I have charted I can help more (I haven't actually started yet but I've read a lot about  it - Highly recommend a book called Taking Charge of Your Fertility) 

One thing you could push for is a diagnostic laparoscopy - it's the only way to see what is really going on in there. I have a regular 28 day cycle and very little pain, my tubes are open and I ovulate fine, but had a scan after my IVF and they spotted a cyst so i am having a lap to remove it and any other endo they might find. If you have endometriosis this won't show up on any of those tests, only a lap. I don't mean to freak you out as you probably don't have it but it might be worth investigating if you are struggling to conceive and can't find a reason.

xx


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## Wisp

Hi,

You havent freaked me out, don't worry, I would rather know what could be going on in there!  I was never offered a laparoscopy nor was it discussed with me, but I am going to go to my GP now to ask about it.  We have moved now, so have a new GP/local hospital, so I will see if I can get referred again.

The herbs I had at first were in powder form, which you have to mix with hot water and drink.  The ones I have now come in dried form, which I have to soak, boil up and then strain the liquid out, which you keep in the fridge and take 200ml twice a day, warmed up.  It can feel like a hassle sometimes, but being orgnaised about it helps and you soon get used to it!  Adding a bit of honey really helps the taste, mine are just so bitter and I hate coffee for that reason, so am not used to bitter things like that!  You'll have to let me know what sort you get.

All the best to you! Thanks for your help.


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## Wisp

P.S Thanks for the book tip, I am going to order that today!!!


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## sickofwaiting

Hi Wisp

That's great you ordered the book - it's blooming massive like a biology text book, I've learnt loads from it! I had my lap yesterday, it all went well, turns out the cyst was a dermoid cyst not endometrial. But I do have a bit of endo too but it's on my bowel I think so he left it alone as it doesn't cause me much pain and won't affect fertility. Am hoping now the cyst has gone I will have a better chance at pregnancy. I don't know if it was the IVF drugs that caused it or if I had it before.. Anyway my tubes are fine and I am glad I didn't lose the whole ovary. Just resting up now. 

Think it's a good idea to ask about a lap but they may not do it if they don't have good reason, so will have to see what they say I guess. Good luck and keep in touch x


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## Wisp

Hi,

Good to hear that it went well and you didnt lose an ovary.  Hope you had a nice rest over the weekend.  Going to make a GP appointment today, so will see what they say about it.  Yes, hopefully now the cyst as gone it will help! Good luck


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## Bethlehem

Hi wisp, just replying again to you (I can't figure out how to find posts again, I wish there was a "my posts" button, I am very stupid!

Anyway, I was just wondering if there is a NAPRO clinic in your area, I have never been but have heard loads of success stories with girls like yourself who were prescribed stuff without anyone looking at the basics or cycles etc. they do not do ivf, they just get to the root of things and treat the person.
I will try to find a link to a video for you, I am sure they are on youtube if you google "napro". Very best of luck.

P.s. that book is the best book I ever read in my life.


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## Bethlehem

I found the link for you:

http://lifefertilitycare.co.uk/infertility/

http://lifefertilitycare.co.uk/

http://www.fertilitycare.net/

http://www.naprotechnology.com/index.html

Good luck and enjoy that book.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or it's owners are not responsible for the content of external sites.


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## Pudding34

Bethlehem

If you want to look at your posts, go to profile, summary and then click on posts under your name and profile pic! 

Pudding
X


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## Wisp

Hi Bethlehem,

Thank you so much for taking the time to find the post again and for all the links! I really appreciate it and look forward to having a look at them.

There was some problem with my book order....but it should be here today, can't wait to start reading it! 

Thanks again


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## sickofwaiting

Hi Wisp

I started the herbs yesterday, the grossest thing I have ever tasted. Even with honey I was wretching!! I have a very sensitive gag reflex and I hate anything bitter tasting anyway (can't stand coffee) so I don't think I can do that twice a day!! I ordered some gel capsules from amazon to put the herbs in and swallow, thank god! I had a really bad headache yesterday and wondered if it's the herbs that caused it.. Hope I'm not allergic! 

Hope the book arrives today - it's certainly interesting reading!

Xx


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## sickofwaiting

Ps. When I was at acupuncture yesterday my acupuncturist rang her friend who's a doctor to ask some advice because she thought it was odd that they had found endometriosis in my lap and not removed it. And it turns out her dr friend was my anaesthetist!! So she told me all about the op and said they did remove it?! Bloody Nhs I'm so confused the lack of information and support is baffling. Anyway I'm glad they removed it and she said my fertility will definitely be improved now. I'm hopeful but we have sperm issues too so I feel like everything is against us  xx


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## tricia1012

Hello    hope you dont mind me joining but this sounds similar to mine, i notice every month a week  before af i get spotting for a day or two , my past two ivf cycles i started spotting 5 days before otd, were unexplained although up until now weve been nhs fnded i feel they dont look into things! Were going private now i have an appt on tues do you think i should bring up the spotting nhs doc told me it was nothing and to ignore it - so confusing! 

Tricia xx


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## Bethlehem

Absolutely bring it up. I said it to my doctor 2 years ago that I was spotting and I felt I was short of progesterone. So I was sent for all manner of invasive tests including a colposcopy and a particularly awful hysteroscopy. I kept repeating that I was charting my cycles and it was happening at the exact same time every single month so it was probably hormonal, but I don't think they cared!

So this year I went to private IVF clinic and straight away they said it was hormonal and I will definitely need support from drugs during the luteal phase. (although that is not the answer to everything, I was not getting a good ovulation to start with, but spotting was showing there was a problem.)

Yes say it at your appointment.


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## tricia1012

Thanks
I will def bring it up maybe it might bring me some answers   so frustrating when you dont know whats wrong. Ive used ovulation kits and i always ovulate the same time every month but maybe theres low progesterone issues , so glad i found this so i  now know to ask ive always just ignored it!


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## Wisp

Hi Sickofwaiting,

Arghh I know they are so gross, I can't stand bitter things either and hate coffee.  Actually sometimes I get a headache too.  I have been drinking it since October, at first I didn't have it with honey and I couldn't stand it, the thought of drinking it made me feel sick and there is no way I could have carried on without the honey.  Now with the honey I have got a bit more used to it, but it still tastes awful! I have 200mls at a time and it takes me about 30 minutes to drink it...my husband is always saying "have you finished that yet", so I got him to try it, now he knows why it takes me so long!  Hope the gel capsules are ok for you.

How awful that the NHS removed it and didn't tell you! I always feel like I cant' trust them.  I don't think we had a very good experience with our Consultant at the hospital.  Maybe you should ask for a copy of all your notes?  I did that at the end of my clomid treatment, the Consultant looked very shocked but they photocopied all my notes and tests results for me.  I had no idea what nay of it meant as she hadn't talked to me about it really.  My acupuncturist was the one who explained them to me! What a lucky coincidence that yours happened to know the anaesthetist!

Tricia1012 - Hello, yes, I agree definitely bring it up.  I was also told numerous times that it was nothing, that it was ovulation bleeding even though it clearly wasnt the right time for that! I agree they don't look in to things, I was telling the Consultant that I thought it was hormonal and due to low progesterone, but she didnt seem to take any notice.


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## tricia1012

Wisp- hello thanks for the advice ive never wanted to moan about the nhs because i know were lucky to get it but they really dont look into things! Hopefully going private will help ,my acupuncturist advised me to so i rang and emailed my nhs hosp for copies of my treatment and results and they have just ignored me! Good luck with your herbs my acupuncturist has me drinking wheatgrass -tastes so horrible


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## Wisp

Arghh...not nice that we have to do all these things to try and have a baby  .  I never ever thought I would have trouble conceiving, all those years I spent being worrying about getting pregnant and being really careful!  Yes I hope going private will help you, we are lucky to have the NHS, but they are so stretched and just don't seem to have the time that we need! Good luck with it!


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## sickofwaiting

Tricia - when I had my ICSI cycle I started bleeding before my test date. I mentioned it to my consultant after we found out it failed and he said next time they will give me the progesterone injection rather than the suppositories so I would suggest this for you maybe? Also, if you chart your cycles you will be able to see exactly what is going on and hormonal imbalances etc so this might be a good idea if you aren't already doing it? I've just started and am intrigued to see if I have low progesterone...

Wisp - I am well impressed you have been taking the herbs for that long. I got myself all stressed out about them last night because I was dreading having to take them! I will let you know how I get on with the capsules. Do you think the herbs are helping? I know what you mean, I never thought I would be in this situation in a million years. It's so so tough. I feel so worn down and tired of it all after nearly 3 years of infertility and that's just trying to get pregnant never mind all the worries that come with pregnancy and labour etc, sometimes I feel like I'm not strong enough to do this. 

xx


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## sickofwaiting

p.s I asked for a copy of my notes when I left the hospital and they said no!!! I guess they just couldn't be bothered or have time to go and photocopy them. I wish I had taken a picture of them on my phone!! Don't think of these things when you've just come round from a general anaesthetic! It does make me angry, heaven forbid we actually want some information about our own bodies(!)

xx


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## tricia1012

Sickofwaiting- Hello thanks for the advice   after my last failed cycle i asked if they would swap me to the injectable progesterone as i hate the suppositories   but they said no! I guess now that were  going to be paying for it all the choice will be mine . Cant believe they can say no to giving you your notes thats terrible im going to harass them until i get mine  
Ive just started charting this week so it will be interesting to see what that shows ,opk's always show when i ovulate but maybe i have a hormonal issue! Good luck with your charting and best of luck with everything 

Tricia xx


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## Wisp

Hi Sickofwaiting,

I know I can't believe I have been taking them that long either! I think that they have been helping, the spotting has definitely reduced and my BBT chart used to be all over the place and looks more as it should do.  I also used to get very hot at certain points in my cycle, which has lessened, but sometimes I think are they really doing much!?  I am only going to take them for the rest of this cycle (day 15 now) and then the next one, because I have paid up until then and I don't really want to carry on longer.  Are your herbs powder form or dried ones like mine?  I know it can be stressful, see how you get on with the capsules.

I can't believe they wouldn't give you your notes, you are entitled to anything written/on file about you, so it probably was that they didn't want to go and copy them.  You could request them in writing from the Department, they would have to send them to you then.

I feel worn down by it too, three years of trying like you and no joy    Exactly, I worry about that too, what on earth will I be like if it does happen?! I will be so worried about how the pregnancy is going.  It will feel like getting over one hurdle to be faced with another!  We both must be pretty strong though, having kept going for the past three years, but it is so hard at times.  Yesterday I ended up crying at a mothers day meal with my family as my mum and sisters all got free special drinks and flowers and I was the only woman there who wasn't a mother and so didn't get these things, it felt so horrible. My DH and dad were so sweet and caring, but that just meant I couldn't hold it in and started crying! x


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## elouise22

Hi Wisp
I have exactly the same issue. 8 DPO I get pink/brown spotting which continues til full flow starts usually 5 days later. I have secondary unexplained infertility.I have spoke to G.Ps and my gynaecology consultant and all have brushed it off. I had an unsuccessful cycle of IVF in oct and at my review appointment through tears said I can't understand how I can get pregnant naturally with this problem. From what I've read implantation does not usually occur until 8-10 DPO,so how could it if my lining is already starting to shed? 
My fertility consultant said there is no point in clomid as my prog level was good (90) when tested. However she suggest I may get some benefit from progesterone pessarys, although she still states she does not think this is why I am not getting pregnant. I finally managed to get a prescription from my GP which I started this month and I have got to 10 DPO today, which is a first. I don't expect I'm pregnant but just feel relieved to be doing something about it. 
I plan to try it for 3 months then possibly go for another cycle as at 39 I don't feel I have the time.  
I found a great thread, a few years old now but a few ladies on there had the same problem and managed to get BFPs through using progesterone support, some having had several IVF/icis. It was titled 'unexplained explained sometimes it's the simplest of solutions'.  It's definitely worth a look. 
Best of luck to you E


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## Wisp

elouise22 this is so helpful, thank you.  I'm sorry that you have this too, but it is nice to hear from someone with the same thing and who understands!  I have said exactly the same thing to Dr's/Consultants, I don't see how I could get pregnant with this going on, but no-one seems to listen or think it's a problem! Very frustrating.  I suggested to the consultant that maybe some sort of progesterone supplements may help and she said there was no evidence to suggest this would help me become pregnant, end of conversation, but I really feel it makes the most sense!  What you say about implantation and the lining coming away is exactly what I think too, I feel I have been banging on about this for so long. I think I will push for some progesterone pessaries and see how it goes.  Its great that you have already noticed a change.  Keep me posted and thank you for the link, I will have a look.  Good luck with it


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## Briss

ladies, I am happy to have found your thread. I have never had this issue before but a few months after my second failed IVF I started spotting (light brown) for about 4-5 days before AF. My acupuncturist said not to worry as this could be anything or nothing and may disappear soon. Still, I am worried about my progesterone levels, although in the past they were quite high. My LP is about 13/14 days but spotting really gets to me. I read a lot on this subject and noticed that many ladies actually have really high progesterone levels and yet they spot before AF. what could be the reason? some ladies reported improvements after they started taking B vitamin complex. also, many got pregnant even with spotting. I started charting again to see if my temp drops from 10 DPO and hoping to get my GP to do bloods on about 10/11 DPO but it's so hard to arrange. at the moment I am just relying on acu and herbs (in powder form) and tonnes of other supps. 

the only other time when I had pre Af spotting was on my first IVF cycle when I had a chemical. so basically my AF was trying to start but could not because I was on progesterone as once I stopped the progesterone AF started the next day. 

also, I had a lap two years ago but they did not find anything and there was nothing in the notes that they gave me.  unfortunately ever since I had that lap my cycles went crazy short and my FSH went up and I still cant recover from this. my FS said it has nothing to do with lap and that I am just aging but I cant believe this my cycles were 26-29 days before the lap and right after lap became 22-27! my acu doc says laps can have this effect on some women and I was just very unlucky. I would not recommend doing a lap unless absolutely necessary.


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## Wisp

Briss,

I am really glad you have added to this.  Since I posted this originally, I have now had my progesterone retested on day 23 rather than day 21, when it was taken before, as my cycle is usually 30 days.  The result was still good with the level being 66.5, so now I am wondering if you are right and you can have this spotting even when levels are okay?! I don't know what the reason for the spotting could be if this is the case though.  

I noticed from my BBT chart that my temp dips slightly on day 24/25 and that is usually when the spotting starts, so I am going to try and get another test for day 25 to see what the level is like then, but like you say I am not sure how easy it will be to get my GP to agree to this.  Although my temp drops a bit around day 24/25 it goes back up again, I am not sure what this means, but my acupuncturist said it looks like the progesterone drops a bit and then my body realises it's too soon to be dropping so kicks some more out?! Who knows.

It's good to hear of women who have become pregnant even with the spotting before AF because in my head I have become convinced it cannot happen while the spotting is present.

When you say your LP is 13/14 days do you calculate your LP up to day 1 of your period or day 1 of the spotting?  I always counted up to day 1 of my actual period, so my LP would be about 13 days, but if I was counting up to the spotting it would only be 8/9 days...which would point to a too short a LP. Confusing!?

I am having acu and taking herbs too, as well as other supplements.  The spotting has reduced but it's still there, regular as clock work!

Are you taking B vitamins? I am taking wellwoman preconception vitamins and assume they include B vits, or perhaps I should take a separate B vit too? I also read that Chasteberry is good to increase progesterone, if the spotting is linked to that! If not we could be overdosing ourselves  .


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## rosie80

Hi girls, 

I just wanted to share my experience with you all and anyone else who is driven mad by the spotting issue. I've always had short cycles (21 days) but was told that was nothing to worry about. After a stressful year they went up to 24 days but with spotting for anything up to 8 of them. I spent years trying to get to the bottom of the problem but there really is no interest in it. I kept being told I must ov on day 10-12 then but my CBFM kept saying it was day 14 giving me an 8-10 day LP. When I went for acupuncture it got me up to 28 days without spotting (woo hoo) but it only lasted two cycles. My progesterone levels were normal (only just) but convinced I was sent too early for them. When I finally looked for help on the fertility side the tests showed low AMH and low follicle count so referred straight to IVF.  Who knows what it is, it could be that the egg isn't getting released or that the corpus luteum isn't breaking down properly. It could be endo but I chose not to have a lap for fear of things getting worse. It could just be progesterone levels. Either way, there are so many variable I hope IVF is the answer for me to what feels like a very long journey.


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## Briss

*rosie*, I've been using my CBFM for years and I trust it completely. so if it gave you PEAK on day 13/14 that's definitely an issue with your LP being on a short side. I also have low AMH and low follicle count but I do not think it's related to pre AF spotting. I've had many scans and bloods so I know that eggs are being released monthly as they should and progesterone goes up (being released by corpus luteum) but clearly something is not right. Have you tried Vitex? I know that some ladies with short LP had success with it. Good luck with your IVF!

*Wisp*, as far I could gather there are a few possible reasons for spotting:

-	progesterone. 66.5 is a very good level. I am told anything above 35 confirms ovulation but also most importantly high enough level for implantation. Having said that, it's possible that your levels go down earlier than they should so maybe you are right and 7 DPO (CD 21 or 23 depending when you O) is just too early. I will try to check my levels around 10 DPO cos that's when I start spotting so really want to know my progesterone levels at that time. this makes sense considering that your temp goes down around that time as well - usually temp is a good indication of progesterone levels. I do not really know how to explain why it goes back up again but it's positive. we just need to understand why it goes down so early in the first place. 
-	a fibroid or a polyp. these two can also make you spot. but I think you have had tests to confirm your uterus was clear? 
-	vitamin B deficiency
-	pregnancy/chemical pregnancy. have you tested around 12/13 DPO? it's possible to be getting chemicals but obviously unlikely if you spot every cycle. I also noticed that many women who spot regularly before AF, do not have any spotting when they become pregnant (that's how they usually know that something good is happening)

CD1 is the day of the actual flow not the spotting. but I take your point that it's actually sometimes hard to tell. that's another thing that annoys me about spotting. when do I do CD3 bloods? because I've been charting, temping, using CBFM, cycle monitoring with scans and bloods for a few years now I have very good idea what my cycle looks like so I can usually adjust my days deepening on how AF goes or when I get my LH surge etc.

B vits that are included in wellwoman preconception vitamins is not sufficient. you need a stand alone B complex with higher doses of all B vitamins. Again, I am just trying it out so I do not know whether this will work but many women reported good results with it. I am taking this one at the moment http://www.highernature.co.uk/ShowProductFamily.aspx?ProductFamilyID=244 the doses are not high but the potency is supposed to be much better than most brands. although I am going to replace it with this one http://www.naturesbest.co.uk/vitamin-b-100-complex-p641/?src=gonato

Be careful with Chasteberry (also known as Vitex, agnus-castus), it is good in certain cases but can easily mess up your cycle. Some ladies with regular cycles and ovulation reported that they actually did not ovulate while taking Vitex - scary! I have not tried it myself for that reason.

my vitamins:

Pregnacare Conception 
600 COQ10 /300 Ubiquinol (egg quality)
2,000 Fish oils 
1,000 Vitamin C (after O to improve progesterone levels)
200 Vitamin E (egg quality)
4,000 Vitamin D (when it's not sunny)
800 Folate (NOT Folic acid)
Vitamin B complex (help with pre AF spotting)
2,000 Myo-inositol (egg quality, balance insulin)
25 Zinc (4-5 days before AF)
2,000 EPO (before O) (delay O, increase EWCM)


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## Wisp

*Rosie*, thanks for sharing, it's really helpful to hear and to not feel so alone with this stupid spotting! I have had the same experience, that medical professionals just don't seem interested or think it is important. I hope that IVF will be the answer for you. Good luck!

*Briss,*, thank you so much for all this info, it's really very helpful. Let me know what result you get at 10 DPO, I am going to definitely try and get another test for when I see the drop in my temp and the spotting starts (in my last cycle my temp went from 36.90 on day 23 to 36.80 on day 24, then 36.65 on day 25, 36.60 on day 26 then shoots up to 36.95 on day 27?!). Like you say although it goes back up I would love to know why it goes down in the first place...

I have had tests to confirm my uterus was clear, they said they couldn't see any polyps etc. I will start taking a separate B Vit now and see if that helps. I have never tested on 12/13 DPO, as it happens every month, but could do one this cycle.

Thank you again!


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## Briss

*Wisp*, what's your acu doc treating you for? did he explain what kind of deficiencies/excesses you have? does he change points depending on where you are in your cycle? I seem to have excess and empty heat which is causing me to ovulate early and also yin deficiency cos I have high FSH and liver qi stagnation.


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## Wisp

Hey Briss,

She said that I have a yin deficiency and liver qi stagnation too.  Also something about my kidneys and excess heat. I am still a bit unclear about what all this means to be honest. When she explains it I seem to get it, but then I feel confused again. I am coming to the end of 6 months treatment, so will be finishing soon.  I am thinking of maybe trying some reflexology, but feel like I am grasping at straws sometimes!

I am going again tonight for acupuncture, looking forward to it.  She does change the points depending on where Iam in my cycle and looks closely at my BBT chart, which I have to take with me.

x


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## Briss

*Wisp*, that does sound similar to my diagnosis. Do you take any particular herb formula? did you notice any changes in your cycle in the 6 months you have been doing the treatment?

I do reflexology sometimes, really like it! not sure it does anything to my fertility though. I think it just relaxes me and improves blood floor. My old acu doc was scrutinising my charts but my current one does not seem to care very much. I will take my chart next time I see him cos since I went on his herbs my temp lowered. maybe it's a sign that my excess heat is going down. who knows.


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## Wisp

*Briss,* I am not sure what the actual herb mix is, blind faith I know! My very first lot were in powder form so had the names of all the herbs along the side of the pot, not that I knew any of them, but since then I have been having to boil up a mix of dried herbs, which come in paper bags. There are all sorts of different looking bits in there!

I have noticed that my temperature has come down pre-ovulation and my BBT chart, which used to be very up and down, is now lower to begin with and then has a clear rise and difference after ovulation. The spotting has decreased, it starts later and there is much less of it. My PMT symptoms, like painful breasts and period pain, have lessened too. So I think overall there has been some progress. Although my period blood is still dark red, like a burgundy colour and I am not sure if that is 'healthy blood' or not?!

Hopefully it is a sign that the excess heat is reducing, I was also you told to avoid sugar and not too much dairy as they increase heat, did you hear that too?


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## Petal bell

Wisp - just noticed this thread in the forums list/post list and it sounded familiar to me! I wasn't ovulating regularly (solved with clomid) but also had the same spotting you describe. Acupuncture in Week 1/2 and 3 of my cycle helped to some degree but it didn't fully alleviate it. I then had regular progesterone tests (each month) at the GP which showed a pattern of v low progesterone even in the months when I'd ovulated. Anyway, this has now been reinforced by the IVF clinic that we've used, where I am on 2 x progesterone suppositories a day and an injection of progesterone every day as well as my levels were naturally v v low. I had some other immune issues as well which is why we went ahead with IVF, but I really think the progesterone is worth a shot. At my first IVF consult the consultant said 'oh your body clearly doesn't like to produce it's own progesterone' straight away, and then followed it up quickly with a 'don't worry we can give you a lot of it to top you up & sustain implantation & pregnancy' and sure enough they have!!

Definitely worth asking the question & if you can afford it I'd really recommend sticking with the acupuncture, it really helps . Good luck on your journey x


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## Briss

*Wisp*, that sounds like a good progress! I am on powdered herbs at the moment but used to be on raw herbs which I had to boil. raw herbs are supposed to be more potent but it's just so time-consuming.

I am also reducing sugar but mainly for egg quality not heat. I did not know that milk can increase heat. shame cos I started drinking much more whole milk, it really helps with sugar cravings.

*Petal bell*, did they recommend any natural ways to make your body produce its own progesterone rather than having to rely on synthetic one? obviously taking synthetic progesterone should help but it does not solve the issue. I'd want to know why you are not producing enough in the first place?


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## Petal bell

Hi - no they didn't, by that stage we were already looking at ivf anyway and so it was just part of what needed to be done tbh. The acupuncture did help and my levels rose a bit after a few months of that as my hormones were more in balance, better blood flow, less heat etc but I don't think that could have been the only thing to help . I also changed my diet to totally organic; no caffeine, no alcohol, and used supplements incl, inositol to improve egg quality which in turn I think helped ovulation and stimulation of progesterone. But I think it's just the case that sometimes people's bodies just don't produce enough of a certain hormone and that's just the way it is x


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## Wisp

*Petal bell-* Thank you for the info, if you don't mind me asking, what were your levels like and what has the rise been like with the extra progesterone? I think trying soem form of progesterone supplements is a good way forward for me, I guess it couldn't do any harm to try?!

*Briss - * When I write it down like that it does seem like good progress, but its hard to remember sometimes when I feel hopeless! My acupuncturist was always telling me to limit my dairy intake, I love natural yoghurt and she didn't seem keen on me having too much of that! I think it was to do with increasing heat, but yesterday she also mentioned something about damp! So confusing at times.


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## Briss

*Wisp*, I totally agree it's confusing at times what to eat what not to eat, very conflicting info everywhere I look so I decided to stick to no sugars/ refined carbs etc, whole milk and ricotta (replaces my fruit yogurt which turned out to be a sugar trap) - I love this stuff it's rich in protein and it does not make me feel ill; and the obvious greens, nuts, organic wild fish etc I also eat whole grains. I think dairy products can increase dump. I asked my current acu doc about the food but he just said he is sure I eat healthily and that all that matters.

*Petal bell*, Thank you! re inositol, do you have any kind of insulin resistance? I also started taking inositol cos I was sure I had some form of insulin resistance considering years of chocolate abuse but surprisingly they seemed to be fine so I wonder if I should stop inositol. I read it only works to improve egg quality in women who have insulin resistance.


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## Petal bell

Hi - my levels were typically between 12-27 and once it was 50 but never again naturally! On supplements they are massively high - about 250 just on the cyclogest suppositories & with the injection as well about 450!

Re the inositol I think I may have some insulin resistance but I just happened to speak to zita west at the fertility show (totally random!) I told her my situation and she suggested her soluble inositol. At £12-13 a bottle I just thought why not! I am convinced it helped. I think it's often recommended for people with pcos; which I don't have, but she just said she thought it would help with egg quality and ovulation and it definitely did that x


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## Briss

*Petal bell*, Thank you. how much inositol are you taking?


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## Petal bell

Hi - I've stopped now as I'm pregnant but pre egg collection in ivf I was taking 'a large scoop' per day dissolved in a tumbler of water. The zita west powder comes with the scoop & has instructions on it. You can order on line and delivers ina day or two. I think you can buy it in tablet form elsewhere but I never looked into that x


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## Briss

I started spotting on 11 DPO (again!) and immediately did progesterone blood test which came at *10.5 ng/ml * which is confusing. it seems to be a different scale which I do not quite understand. Does anyone know if this is a high enough level or not?

ref:
Follicular 0.10 - 0.54
Luteal 1.50 - 20.0
Ovulation 0.12 - 6.22
Menopause < 0.41

I think (from my reading) on this scale they want 15-20 to confirm ovulation (which is around 7 DPO and when progesterone production peaks) but 11 days after O progesterone starts to decrease gradually (I think) so it can be lower I am just not sure by how much. I am pretty sure I ovulated based on my temp/CBFM. am I correct to think that 10.5 ng/ml is too loo for 11 DPO and my progesterone is dropping earlier than it should, which can explain the spotting?

I wonder if my corpus luteum is not great because of some problem with follicles: poor follicles make for poor corpus luteum

still confusing cos some say 10 is enough for good ovulation which means it should be considered a pretty high level for 11 DPO http://trmbaby.com/for-patients/library/testing/women/ovulation/serum/ but then why am I spotting?

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are note responsible for the content of external internet sites.


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

I'm sorry I cant help, but I don't understand that scale either.  How did you do a progesterone blood test so quickly?  I feel the same, it is so confusing isn't it?! For the past 6 months when I have been charting I have always started spotting on day 25, of my 30 day cycle, but yesterday I didn't get anything, I am sure it'll start today though  .  As you know I wanted to get my progesterone tested on day 25 because of this, but couldn't this month as we have been away. So I'll have to wait until next month now.  Please do let me know if you find out anymore.
So from what your saying 7 DPO is when progesterone peaks, so should our temps be highest at this point? And then 11 DPO progesterone starts to decrease, so should the temp drop too? If your pregnant I guess the temp stays high as progesterone keeps being produced?


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## Petal bell

Hi briss - it's great that you are getting more pieces of the puzzle together. It really does look like a similar story to mine & that you appear to be ovulating but perhaps not 'very well' - sorry I don't quite know how to describe that. In my (completely non-medically trained opinion) it looks like the problem could be egg quality so I would push hard for a consultant referral to discuss options for improving that as that in turn should improve the progesterone reading or if you are having no luck with the NHS it may be worth a consult at zita west (I mention them as they are great at providing advice on non treatment/ivf interventions whereas other clinics would go straight to ivf etc) it may just be worth the consult fee (not more than £200) to get some detailed insight.. I know you are doing the acupuncture which I'd really encourage you to continue but really focus on the early part of your cycle to support egg development and ovulation; and look at the supplements - there is a thread on supple,emits and a lot of ladies mention the 'angel bumps protocol' as a good guide (search on FF search bar for it). A lot of girls I cycled with had egg quality issues and had resolved them with supple,nets and lifestyle changes - inositol; co-enzyme q10; omega 3 and some swear by dhea as well. Worth researching? Good luck xx


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## Briss

*Wisp*, thanks! somebody recommended this place near Bond st called Path labs, they email you results in 2 hours! I am hoping your spotting wont come this cycle. I think that's right 7 DPO is when progesterone peaks (and on my scale it's supposed to be above 10 for good ovulation in a natural cycle) and by 11 DPO progesterone starts to decrease, if you start spotting I thought it means progesterone is much lower than it should be which theoretically should be confirmed by the temp drop. However, in my cycle it's the other way around: I started spotting on 11 DPO, my progesterone apparently is still high (it's 10.5 on 11 DPO so presumably it was even higher when it peaked on 7 DPO) and my temp jump up really high on the day I started spotting (I was hoping it might be pregnancy related but got clean BFN on 13 DPO) but 2 days later my temp went back down (but not below the cover line). I am thinking that my spotting is probably not due to low progesterone but due to some other reason. Does this make sense? I have also been on 100 B complex but clearly it did not make any difference.

*Petal bell*, I think you might be right, I was thinking it might be not good quality follicles which then make poor quality corpus luteum. but then it should be visible in low progesterone and lower temps, should it not? which does not seem to be the case for me. Egg quality might also be an issue considering my age and high FSH but I do not quite understand why it shows up as spotting? the fact that I O early on CD11 is probably a better indication of lower egg quality and I have been on tones of supps for years but it does not really improve anything. My acu doc focuses on the first part of my cycle and the treatment (herbs) is to try and extend it which can hopefully improve egg quality as well. It might be worth while talking to Zita West, who knows she might offer a new perspective. because I am still very confused. The 'angel bumps protocol' is great! that was actually the first thing I read when I started my supps  I have improvised with my supps over the years but none of this has made any difference if I am honest. My FSH is going up, egg quality goes down and new issues like pre AF spotting come up 

one thing that I noticed often comes up in pre AF spotting threads is thyroid issue. I do not understand how under active thyroid relates to spotting but I checked my TSH and it's on the higher side of normal so I might have some mild under active thyroid issue. could this be what's causing the spotting? Still not sure I understand how the two are related. I have booked an app with endocrinologist, hopefully he will be able to explain this.


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## Wisp

Briss,

Yes it makes sense and my temp also stays above the cover line when I experience the spotting, it doesn't drop very much. I too am thinking that maybe my progesterone is okay, but will have the test later extmonth and see what that comes up as.  

It is interesting that you mention thyroid, as I was reading something the other day that made me think of that, my temps are low in the first phase of my cycle and I read that it can indicate a thyroid issue? There are so many factors I just wish someone could explore them all and come up with an answer! Maybe a consultation at Zita West is the way to go, but I feel like my DH and I are spending lots of money and getting nowhere fast!


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## Wisp

*elouise22* - not sure if you'll see this, but just wanted to say thank you so much for the old thread you added to this one a while ago, I have just read it all over the past two days and it's brilliant! Amazingly I havent actually had any spotting yet this month, always get it by day 25 but now I am on day 28 and still nothing. It still seems like progesterone suppositories/cream may be helpful, having read that thread, as it could help implantation. I will try and convince my GP!


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## Briss

*Wisp*, it's so good that you did not have any spotting this cycle! Did you do anything differently?

I think for thyroid issue (underactive thyroid) your temp will be lower the entire cycle, I mean you would still get a shift on ovulation but both levels may be lower than what you usually have. at least that's the case for me but I have not yet confirmed that I have thyroid issue I am just guessing based on my TSH. Also I am not clear at all how thyroid connects to spotting - definitely something to ask the endocrinologist next week.

Had my acupuncture session today. I asked about spotting again and showed him my chart and progesterone results. He agreed that progesterone is fine and the chart looks what it should be. the difference between pre and post O temp is about 0.3 and it should be between 0.2-0.5 so all looks normal. He completely disregarded my temp rise on 11 DPO and said it has nothing to do with my hormones or my cycle it must be caused by external factors like lack of sleep or minor infection. He thinks egg/follicle quality is not responsible for my spotting cos it would have affected my progesterone levels. It's possible that I have a polyp which aggravates in the second half of my cycle as progesterone increases and that's causing spotting. Generally he said it looks like the spotting might be caused by the excess rather than lack of something in my case. whatever that means&#8230; I am due for a scan soon so they may be able to check if there is a polyp.


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## Wisp

I've just started getting some very light spotting this evening, I feel really down about it  . It is good that it didn't start as early as normal, but I just feel so disappointed and angry about it.  I didn't think I was hoping it meant anything, but deep down I must have been as it's really got to me.  I didn't do anything differently this cycle which I think could have delayed the spotting, I wish there was something I knew would help.

I've no idea how the thyroid could affect spotting either, be interesting to see what the endocrinologist says, do let me know what they say about it.  I hope the appointment goes well.

What your acupuncturist says sounds good and makes sense. Mine also said they wondered if it was about excess linked to excess heat and the blood vessels swelling and causing bleeding, as progesterone seems fine.  Do let me know how your scan goes, I've had one which didn't seem to show any problems that could explain the spotting. Very frustrating!


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## Briss

*Wisp*, I am very sorry you started spotting again, I was hoping this would be spot free for you. but at least it started later in the cycle. maybe your cycle is regulating itself?

Just had my scan but they could not see any polyps. They told me spotting does not necessarily mean there is a polyp, also polyps are not always visible on scans and they can appear later in the cycle so it's still not entirely clear. I am seeing endocrinologist soon and will ask if spotting can relate to under active thyroid, this is the last avenue to explore tbh I am running out of ideas


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

It does seem like things could be changing, as the spotting started later and it was a very small amount compared to when I started acupuncture 6 months ago. Maybe things are settling down, I don't know.  Like you, I feel like I am running out of ideas with this!

So, it actually still isn't clear for you after the scan, it could still be a polyp that they cant see, but also it couldn't!? Did they have any other suggestions of what the spotting could be if it definitely isn't a poly? This is so frustrating isn't it.  

Do let me know how you get on with the endocrinologist, it will be interesting to hear what they think.

So both of our progesterone levels actually seem okay, but does the spotting suggest too short a LP if we count day 1 as when the spotting starts? If I count from when the spotting starts my LP is short, so maybe progesterone support could help? If I count day 1 from my actual AF, my LP is 13 days, so ok in length...could this be the problem? I have been debating buying some natural progesterone cream online to use after ovulation to see if that could help, but a bit wary without medical advice.  Don't want to mess my system up even more! Especially if things might be settling down!?

Good to hear from you and hope your okay.


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## Briss

I had a chat with an endocrinologist about my raised TSH but he did not see anything wrong with me. He said it's possible that it's a very beginning of underactive thyroid but too early to say for sure because TSh can go down and my T3 and T4 have robust levels (he would be concerned if they were on lower side of normal) and negative antibodies is also a good sign. he also examined my neck and did not find anything wrong. I told him that I am hoping to have IVF and that TSH of over 2 might be an issue but he said it should not be. easy for him to say! he would not recommend that I start taking synthetic hormone just yet. he also said not to overdo it with iodine. basically the dose that is in a multivitamin is OK but no other iodine supps or sea weed supps. unfortunately, even if I am beginning to develop underactive thyroid, there is nothing I can do to stop/delay it. if it happens I just have to go on synthetic hormone and there is nothing in between that can help. He also did not think my spotting related to thyroid. when thyroid goes seriously wrong it can affect menstrual cycle but my current levels are normal. 

the spotting does not seem to suggest too short a LP because we count day 1 as when AF (actual flow) starts. when I did my scan I told them it was day 5 but I started spotting before that so it may be later than day 5 but the doc said they count from the actual flow not the spotting. it's confusing isn't it? cos we also need to do bloods on day 2-3 and it's so hard to tell sometimes. also I cant really count the day of spotting as day 1 cos my progesterone is still high and it just does not make any sense, it's supposed to be very low on CD1. My LP is also 13/14 days.

I'd check your next cycle cos it might be that your spotting is resolving on its own and disappears. hopefully! 

basically I am nowhere close to understanding the reason for my spotting: it's not progesterone, not egg/follicle quality, not thyroid, probably not a polyp, does not seem to be vitamin B related as I have been taking strong vit b complex and the spotting is still there. what else?


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## susie7600

I hope you don't mind me butting in but just wanted to say that I had spotting for 5-ish days before my period for over 5 years. I was always told by my GP it was normal (!).

For me it did turn out to be thyroid related but I only found that out by it disappearing once I started thyroid treatment. I was living in the US at the time and was diagnosed when my TSH was 3.4. The American range for TSH is 0.3 - 3.0 although not all doctors follow this unfortunately. Both my FT3 & FT4 were low normal.

Unfortunately endocrinologists can sometimes be the worst people to deal with about your thyroid! You would be best talking to your clinic and see if they can help, but you definitely need you TSH under 2. Good thyroid levels are so important when it comes to getting and staying pregnant, so definitely push for treatment if your TSH is higher than that.


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## Briss

*susie*, thanks very much for sharing! I am now feeling terribly frustrated with my today's visit to endocrinologist! I did tell him about my spotting but he just said my TSH levels must be way off the mark to cause any damage to my cycle. clearly your case shows that it does not have to be that high to cause spotting. Do you remember what were your T3 and T4 levels? One reason why my doc did not think there was an issue is because my T3/T4 were mid range, not on lower side.


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## susie7600

They were measured in different units in America, and they only tested my FT4 initially which was 0.9 (range 0.8-1.8 ). FT3 was only tested after 6 weeks on 50mcg of levothyroxine and was still only 2.66 (2.4 - 4.2). I was getting hypothyroid symptoms at this point too though.

I honestly didn't know the spotting might be linked, but it cleared up within a few months of treatment.


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

Thanks for sharing how it went with the Endo.  Humph it is a puzzle isn't it?!  I could cope with the not knowing why if I knew it isn't something 'bad' and that it isn't the reason why I'm not getting pregnant! Yes my temp is still high during the spotting, so I don't think progesterone is the problem now either...we're both non the wiser!

Yes, I'll see what happens this month, finger crossed it's phasing out.

In terms of TSH levels, I looked at mine on the progesterone test results on day 23 and I think it was 2.4...going to dig out my original test results to see what it was then.

What do you mean by T3/T4?

Susie, thanks for sharing, it's good to see if there is another part of the puzzle worth exploring!


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## Briss

*susie*, what were your symptoms? I think mine include general tiredness (or laziness) it's just I do not feel like doing anything when I get home after work, just stay on my sofa all evening but when I manage to force myself to go out or swimming I really enjoy it so I cant figure out if I am really tired or just plain lazy. I also noticed that my body temp recently (after spotting started) got 0.2 C degree lower (both before and after O) + spotting. I cant think of anything else. oh yes, I also put on a bit of weight (about 5 kg - not much but for a petit person like myself it's more than 1 size up) and can only shift it if I reduce my calories to 900 a day (I am petit so maybe I just do not need to eat that much anyway) but find it hard to sustain any weight loss and usually go back to my higher weight within several months.

*Wisp*, TSH of 2.4 is OK I think and should not be linked to spotting. Mine is about 3.79 and fertility clinics want it to be below 2 ideally. T3 and T4 are thyroid hormones. when TSH goes up it's because thyroid is not producing enough T3 and T4 and the brain sends more TSH to thyroid to make it work harder. so in underactive thyroid you would have higher TSH and lower T3 and T4 levels. They may all be within norm but just higher or lower sides of normal. My TSH is higher side of normal but T3 and T4 are mid normal that's why the doc did not think it's time for the synthetic hormone. also quite often you would be getting thyroid antibodies as well which also indicates thyroid issue. The doc got me to repeat TSH/T3/T4 to see if my levels fluctuate.

I think thyroid might be connected to my spotting but cant be sure. I think spotting is nothing serious in most cases particularly if this is something you always had but I am quite sure in my case it indicates a problem of some sort because of other things that started happening at the same time. I am feeling really deflated it's like everything works against us. My Dh finally started taking meds to improve his sperm and after 3 months when his sperm was supposed to be getting better to give us a chance I started getting spotting and my TSH went up


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## Wisp

Ah Briss, it is so deflating I know, just as you think you're getting close to finding the answer it changes again...so unfair. How frustrating that you just try sorting one thing out and then something else happens  .

You are so knowledgeable, thank you, you are teaching em a lot which I really appreciate. 

I have stopped charting now, Ive finshed the herbs and acu and just want a break form it all. I am just going to note down CD1 and that's it! It feels great so far, very freeing and I am sleeping better not having to worry about taking my temp!

Thinking of you and hoping we both get a clearer idea of what's going on soon. x


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## Briss

*Wisp*, it's important to take a break from TTC sometimes cos doing it full time all the time can be soul destroying. I take 2-3 months off TTC every year (it sounds rather depressing to talk in "years" terms but I have been TTC for 4 years now). You tend to pick up your "knowledge" while doing research on-line on every aspect of TTC, the problem is of course that some things you come across on the internet are not necessarily accurate. I have also read quite a few books on TTC and various vitamins and Chinese medicine which helps. Unfortunately, it does not seem to bring me any closer to pregnancy while most women who get pregnant know very little about the process.

*afm*, Just an update - I had very little pre AF spotting this cycle!! I had some brown spotting on 14 DPO, quite late in the evening and AF came the next morning - this is perfectly normal for me. This is the second cycle I have been taking 100 Vit B complex, which might have something to do with it but I am going to stop this cycle cos it's doing something to my skin around the mouth, it does not look healthy and I think it might be too much vit B. This was also my second cycle with Chinese herbs and 3rd cycle with acupuncture. This treatment is mainly directed at bringing my FSH down but who knows maybe by regulating my ovaries and delaying O it also helped with spotting.

My most recent TSH was 3.08 which is lower than before - interesting, right? it seems to be fluctuating a bit, not just going up all the time. It's still higher than they like but maybe my spotting was not related to thyroid?

Anyway, one good cycle is not enough to make conclusions but so far so good.


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## Wisp

I know it's so sad that we seem to know so much and it sometimes doesn't help us any more  .

Great news that you had very little spotting this cycle! I'm on day 26, of 30 day cycle, today and nothing as yet.

I think it was the herbs and acu that helped reduce the spotting for me.


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## melbg

Hi ladies,
Sorry to hear of your troubles with pre-af spotting. I hope you don't mind if I throw another couple of ideas into the ring?

I used to get 2-3 days of pre-af spotting (pre-af spotting is at the end of your luteal phase and not to count as day 1 until first day of full flow) It turned out that I've got endometriosis and I've had no spotting since my lap last May. Is this something that you've ruled out already? I had none of the classic symptoms like heavy, painful periods. My only symptoms were the spotting and lower back ache.

Also, a colleague of mine had chronic spotting sometimes starting as early as the day after ovulation and throughout her 14-15 day luteal phase. Her progesterone bloods came back borderline originally so she was put on clomid to help with follicle and therefore corpus luteum development. She spotted slightly less for those first 3 times and her progesterone levels were in the high 90's (pmol?). She convinced a nurse at the fertility clinic to let her have progesterone pessaries and the spotting stopped. The second cycle on this combo she got pregnant and is due next month. Some women struggle with progesterone being properly converted by the uterine lining which is why progesterone at the source can help.
I also think this is another of my issues, I've had u/s scans done at 5dpo twice now and both times my lining was showing signs of starting to breakdown, despite good blood levels. It maybe a coincidence but the only time I've had a bfp was during ivf with progesterone pessaries!  

Sorry for the long post! I really hope you get these issues resolved soon. Xx


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## Briss

*melbg*, thanks for sharing your ideas, it does seem like there are so many reasons for spotting. I had a lap and it did not find any endo. Progesterone is the most common reason for pre AF spotting if your levels are on the lower side it does make sense to supplement. I had a blood test on 11 DPO that confirmed my progesterone levels were still quite high even though I was spotting. Still do not know what the reason was for my spotting but so hope it's going to disappear for good with the TCM treatment.

*Wisp*, fingers crossed you wont see any spotting this cycle.


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## Wisp

*melbg*, thank you for sharing your thoughts, it is helpful to hear about your experience. I haven't had a lap, but I am starting to think that is what I will push for next, as perhaps I do have some endo. Like you I don't have the typical symptoms, heavy/painful periods etc but I do get lower back pain on and off during my cycle and of course the pre-AF spotting! When I was taking clomid the spotting stopped too. Progesterone pessaries is also something I have wanted to try even though my blood test results have been good.

*Briss,*, how are things for you? This cycle I had some pre-af spotting for three days, but very faint and light. Similar to my last cycle. Annoying that it is still there, but when I look back on how it used to be that is a huge improvement and I think the TCM helped a lot. Hope it does for you. AF arrived yesterday, my cycle is keeping to a regular 30 dasy so that feels good too, trying to keep positive, but still felt disappointed yesterday.


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## Briss

*Wisp*, i am sorry you had spotting but good news that it's lighter and hopefully it's on its way out and TCM is helping.

I think my happiness about not having any pre AF spotting was premature. I was expecting this cycle to be even better but it started with long post AF spotting. am on CD 9 and still spotting and also got a PEAk today - super early! looks like i am having a very short cycle 

I had another TSH result and this time it came back completely normal at 2 - basically I now know that TSH fluctuates and probably was not relevant to my pre AF spotting


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

I am sorry to hear that. As it turns out I am also having a weird one...having said I started spotting on CD28 for 3 days and thought AF started on Sunday just gone...that does not actually seem to be the case! I have had very light and pink spotting since then and no proper period!? I have no idea what is going on? As AF doesn't seem to have arrived it means this is now CD33! This is not usual for me. I have lower back pain, very slightly tender breasts, but nothing else.

I am wodner if this is goign to be a very long cycle with lots of spotting pre-AF!? Who knows!


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## Briss

Wisp, have you tested?


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## Wisp

No, I did think about that today but I haven't. Have had really bad cramp like pain in my lower back tonight, makes me feel like it might be heavier tomorrow. Maybe I'll do a test in the morning.


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## Briss

Wisp, I'd definitely test and if positive check progesterone levels cos you may need to supplement. Best of luck I really hope you will get good news.

I am having the crappiest cycle ever, have been spotting for days after AF, seems like ovulated yesterday on CD10 which is shockingly early even for me. we could not BD cos I had 3D SIS done yesterday so we completely missed my O this cycle. It's really strange cos I got good news with normal TSH levels and no pre AF spotting thinking my cycle is getting better but it suddenly got so much worse…


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## aRainbow

hiya, just reading your last post briss...how would i know if my spotting that i have been having is due to low progesterone? 3dpo i was 29.3 and im still waiting for 7dpo progesterone test to come back. thanks x


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

I have also had a terrible cycle too, I feel for you as I know it is so frustrating! I didn't test in the end as the next day AF arrived, so I had a 33 day cycle this month with 6 days of pre-AF spotting!! No idea what is going on. Maybe I should have tested on day 31 when AF hasn't arrived...I don't know but it is so annoying after 6 months of acupuncture when things felt they were getting better I feel like I am back to square one.

I am beginning to think i will never know the cause of this spotting and if it still happens I feel there is no chance of conceiving.  I think the next thing would be a lap as I mentioned before, just to see if there is any endo in there which could be causing it?!

What is 3D SIS? Hope you're okay.


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## Briss

Wisp, I am sorry AF got you, I was so hoping it will stay away. I can understand your frustration with TCM, I have had 3 cycles on chinese herbs that are designed to lower FSH and this cycle my FSH sky high, so high that my poor ovaries had to work super fast to digest it and as a result I ovulated so early. On top of that I am still spotting!! It's 3 DPO  

3d SIS is a scan that they do when they inject your uterus with some liquid and look for anything that may prevent implantation. it's one of the procedures they do at my clinic before they start IVF. I am pretty sure I am spotting because of that.  They also did dummy transfer and told me my cervix was closed so they had to open it. I am sure it is not helping with the spotting either. overall pretty depressing, I just hope nothing sinister is happening and it's just one off bad cycle.


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## Wisp

I hope it's a one off too. Sounds like with all that happening it could be the cause of the spotting this cycle.

It can be so depressing. You wouldn't think it would be so hard to get to the bottom of all this!


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## Briss

I am just waiting for AF, should turn up today or tomorrow. very happy that the spotting stopped after 4 days, the clinic said it is not at all unusual to have some spotting after a 3D-SIS and DET. they will only be concerned if I feel unwell, have pain or an unusual or offensive discharge or the bleeding is getting heavier. I wonder what my AF will look like next cycle. so far no pre AF spotting which is positive.


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## Wisp

Hey,

Great that you haven't had any pre-AF spotting, so far so good! I know, I am wondering what mine will be like too, last month was all over the place!

I should be coming up to ovulation, not testing or anything as still giving myself a break which feels good, so a while until I expect AF and will know how this cycle turns out. Hoping for less pre-AF spotting this time.

Are you still having acupuncture? How are you finding it?


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## Briss

I have acu every 2 weeks and drink my Chinese herbs from CD1 to O but I am gradually losing faith in TCM working for me cos my FSH was very high this cycle and I ovulated early. this should not be happening after 3 months of acu/herbs treatments that was supposed to bring my fsh down. 

because of the 3D-SIS and DET we could not TTC this cycle so it was quite hard for me to know that it's wasted cycle, I need at least some hope to get through TWW. 

have you taken a strong vitamin b complex? My spotting actually stopped on the second cycle since starting taking 100 Vit B complex so it could be a contributing factor. I was not taking any vitamins this cycle though.


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## Emsie11

Hello, I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to read all the replies to this but just thought I'd let you know that I had the same for many years and my GP was useless too. So was a consultant at the hospital (said it was a cervical erosion which never explained why it happened only before AF). Anyway, I went to a fertility expert gynaecologist who did a hysteroscopy on me and biopsy to make sure my lining was in-line with where I was in my cycle. Nothing unusual was found, but he prescribed me cyclogest and gestone (so pessaries and injections) to take for the last week if my cycle as a belt and braces thing just in case. I used to take an early detection pregnancy test on the day or two before I was due (I didn't want to mess around too much with my cycle length by taking the meds for longer) and if it was negative I stopped and my period came 3 days after. So nothing was ever found wrong, but he said there's no risk in taking extra progesterone and it might just help. Well, my spotting completely stopped. I didn't get pregnant naturally, but at least I could stop worrying about the spotting. I hope this helps xxx


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## Briss

*Emsie*, it looks like your pre AF spotting was due to lower progesterone levels. have you had your progesterone tested after ovulation?

*afm*, AF arrived today right on schedule. happy to report I had just a bit of spotting for a few hours before that so obviously very pleased


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## Wisp

Briss, that is good news, hopefully it is sorting itself out. I'll let you know how I get on this cycle! I know what you mean about TCM, I was so hopeful at the start and it did helps things, but then my last cycle, second since stopping acu and herbs, was so bad. I was so hot and had all that spotting! I haven't started taking a B Vit yet, I think I have been avoiding lots of things, scared that nothing will help. I will try it htough. Which do you use? I know you did tell me before, sorry.

Emsie, thanks for explaining your situation...hopefully the new consultant I see will have a similar opinion and may try extra progesterone.


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## Briss

I was taking this B complex - http://www.naturesbest.co.uk/vitamin-b-100-complex-p641/

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites.


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## Emsie11

Hi Briss, my progesterone levels were tested a few times and were always perfect, and the biopsy came back fine too. It used to drive me mad, there was just no explanation. The progesterone basically delayed my period so stopped the spotting so maybe my progesterone was within normal medical range for most people but just low for my body. Who knows! I did so much research and the best advice I got was to see a specialist as it's something that can be sorted out. X


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## Briss

*Emsie*, that's really interesting that you can have different progesterone levels needed for your body than what they believe you should need. I did not know about that always thought there was one fit all level. I am glad it worked out for you. I can see that you have done imsi? Did it work better for you than just ICSI? I am asking cos we have male issue and ICSI did not work that well. I am thinking of asking for IMSI next time hoping this can help with the sperm factor.

*Wisp*, how is it going this cycle? My AF was so bad, on Cd 1 I had a terrible headache and it caused me to vomit the entire day, I am on Cd 7 and still feeling rather shaky. no idea what happened but decided to stay away from the herbs this cycle just in case.


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

I am on day 22 and no spotting as yet, but I think it is likely to happen at some point, annoyingly.  I am going to order the b-vits and see what happens.

Although I say it's CD 22, my last cycle was so weird I'm not really sure when day 1 was!

So sorry to hear you felt so awful and were sick all day, horrid for you  . Hope you're okay.


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## Emsie11

Hi Briss, sorry I wasn't very clear, there is just one level for measuring Progesterone for everyone but as my levels were always within the the normal range and I still had spotting I wondered if it was possible for one level to be normal for one person and to be too low for another, I just don't know why I had spotting as none of the tests explained it. I found the spotting so so stressful so I know how you feel.

With IMSI we used it because the clinic we used said that they had the technology so we might as well so I'm not sure really. Our fertilization level was better the time we did IMSI and we got to blastocycst with 2 frozen as well which is better than we did with ICSI, but I think that's because I had mild ivf (low dose gonal f) and it just suited me better. I produced the same number of eggs, they were just more successful with a lower dose of drugs. The clinic said that IMSI wasn't really necessary (although we did use it) and they ended up not charging us for it as DH's sperm was great on the day, but he did give up coffee and alcohol for 3 months before hand and took a cocktail of supplements and good diet. He had no issues but we just thought it was probably our last go so we might as well throw everything at it.  x


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## Emsie11

Just an idea, but has anyone tried Agate/Penny at Serum for advice on pre-menstrual spotting? (ie - the immunes pages on this site). x


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## Briss

*rachella*, spotting in TWW is obviously not great, I had spotting from 10 DPO on my first IVF and it ended in chemical. they usually increase your progesterone if you start spotting. check with your clinic, they should know about the spotting and can advise accordingly.


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## Emsie11

Rachella, I'm really sorry to hear that, I know it's hard but try to stay positive you never know until day 14. I had spotting on my first ivf so just for my own peace of mind I asked for extra progesterone next time and was on gestone shots and crinone gel as well as the pessaries and I didn't have any spotting. It's frustrating but as you say most doctors say it's not the cause of infertility unless before 10 days post ov. Xxx


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## Briss

Wisp, just wanted to check how you've been? any progress with pre AF spotting?


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## lama321

Just to say I have this! It is so frustrating.. can't explain it but just know that it is related to the infertility. I had low progesterone when tested one month and another month I was tested had great progeserone and no spotting.

I also have really light periods that last 3 days. I have read that stimulating your ovaries can actually bring on LPD so it is interesting that you seemed better on clomid.

I think my issue is related to PID. I guess my ovaries are not quite working properly.

It did seem to improve with acupuncture a bit.

I have just been using the serrapeptase and agnus castus so am waiting to see what happens this month.

Will let you know if I find anything that helps, L xxx


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## Wisp

Hi Briss,

I am okay thank you. How are you doing? I haven't been on here for months, just needed a break from it all! Having stopped acupuncture and the herbs the spotting is back to how it was before I started, very frustrating. Last month I spotted for 7 days before AF and this month 6 days, much lighter but still there.  I have been taking the b vit supplement, but it doesn't seem to be helping with the spotting, although I feel less tires generally, which is good.

I haven't been back to the GP for a new referral to our new hospital, just haven't felt like doing it at all. I still feel so confused about all this and hate not having a clear answer about the cause of the spotting. I brought some progesterone cream, but only used it for one month, not sure why I stopped really, I think I felt worried that I could be messing my system up even more. So I didnt really give it a chance to see if it would work.

Be good to hear how you're doing.

Thanks Lama, be good to hear how you get on with those.


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## kerryh

Hi Ladies

I have exactly the same problem. Spotting from 3-6 days before every period. It's really irritating because I end up using tampax for half the month sometimes. One thing I did notice is that I seem to have a very ripe cervix before I come on. A couple of times I've had smear tests just before AF is due and the bleeding has been awful afterwards. Once it was running down my legs and I thought I might faint. I have also noticed that having sex before AF is due increases my spotting considerably. Makes me wonder if it is my cervix bleeding and not my womb shedding. 

Anyway I got a surprise bpf a few weeks ago so whatever causes the spotting hasn't prevented my conceiving in my case. In fact I was certain I wasn't pregnant because I had a tiny bit of spotting 8 days before AF. I was furious the spotting had increased to 8 days before! Turns out that was an implantation bleed. Even after AF hadn't turned up and was throwing up in the morning I was so certain I was going to come on because of that 8 day spotting. Crazy huh. My spotting has driven my nuts over the past few years, I came to think of it as a very early indication I hadn't conceived and got very upset by it. 

Nice to see you on here again Wisp. Sorry your spotting hasn't improved still! x


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## Pollywally

Hi Wisp, I'm sorry that you are having to go through this rubbish like I did. I'm the same age as you and I had this spotting for years both on and off the pill. I had practically every possible test done and no real reason was found for my infertility but I know the spotting was in some way connected with it. What makes it all the more cruel us that the moment you get the spotting you know that despite your best efforts you are once again not pregnant. I had to watch every single female of childbearing age that I know get pregnant during this time and it was horrible. I dreaded receiving 'happy announcements' via text, came off ******** etc etc. I spent hours and hours online every day 7 days a week trying to work out what could possibly be causing the problem and I dont think I gainef anything from it. It ruined my life. We did have an early miscarriage 2 and a half years ago and the CCG declined our funding for that reason saying I'm not infertile and that I would have to wait another year for funding. That was very hard to accept and it seemed no one cared.

I just wanted to say I really empathise with you on this and I know how frustrating and heartbreaking it can be. In the end I realised that I could not rely on the NHS at my age I didn't want to pussy foot around do we made the decision to pay for IVF. We were determined and had to pay for it out of money we had set aside for a bigger house. It cost £5.5k in total but it worked first time and I'm now 12 weeks pregnant. 

Prior to having IVF I had been given clomid for about a year to see if that helped (even though I ovulated every month). That didn't work. I had progesterone suppositories for about a year and that didn't work. I was also given a form of oestrogen to try at the start of my cycle and that didn't work either. I had s laparoscopy, HSG, three hysyeriscopies and none of them came up with anything. I do have two fibroids but s fertility consultant has told me that they are not the type that cause problems with pregnancy. I also tried Angus castes and that made things worse so I stopped it. I tried taking high doses of vitamin B6 and again that had no effect.

In the end IVF is what worked for me. I know its not ideal because of the cost but at it got me the end resulted I wanted so now I don't care about having to pay.

I also just wanted to say that it is absolutely disgusting and heartless that the NHS has refused you funding because your partner has children from a previous relationship. 

Good luck and please don't give up. I really hope you get your baby x


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## deedee_spark

Hi,

Warning: TMI. 

I used to have this issue, and I very much hope it stays in the past. It's taken about a year to correct itself. I read a book, 'Inconceivable' and attended some of the authors group fertility sessions. She said I had to aim for fresh, pink blood that lasts 5 days. This month is the first month I have had fresh, bright blood (much like finger cut). I am only on day 3 and hope that it stays the same for a few more days (i.e doesn't turn brown). I still get slight sore breasts every month - my aim is to reduce that too. I too am obsessed with my hormones. My 'making babies' book says that spotting is caused by stagnated blood, stress. The aim is to cleanse the liver.

The changes I have made:
We have a smoothy for breakfast and veg juice at dinner.
Vitamins similar angelbumps protocol.
Added only last week - B6 50mg - to help with PMT. 
Added 3 months ago - Apple cider vinegar - 1 tbsp with water per day. 
Added 2 months ago - Serrapetase - 2 capsules before food. I'll stop this next month.
Added 4 months ago Maca - hormone balancing - bewarned - symptoms worse before better.
Slowly changed for the last year - Low estrogen promoting diet. Check your supplements!
Since March  - No gluten (for my thyroid)
Low sugar  (struggle for me)
The odd treat because noone is perfect.
Only did this for 2 months - Castor oil packs
Stress management  - on going project.

The last 2 months AF has been very heavy, dark blood initially, I think this was my system cleaning out (I was warned this happened). Hopefully, any issues with my uterus have been cleaned out.
Last month I kept brown spotting for 5 days after AF finished - believed this was castor oil packs, so I haven't done that this month.

Important, Evening primrose oil made spotting far, far worse. When I stopped EPO, spotting reduced to 2 days. The other changes have reduced to less than 12 hours (but I would never notice the spotting if I wasn't obsessively TTC). Be wary of other estrogen promoting foods.

I tried the progesterone last month for a couple of days, it did help. However, I just happen to receive my blood tests results from my GP and my progesterone was a good level so stopped the supplement. 

Other people get pregnant with spotting, but it is worth trying to reduce spotting so that you don't have to take girly products everywhere you go.

Best of luck to you. I hope you get the BFP. We're now on the IVF route.

xx


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## Wisp

Hi Kerry,

Thanks you for the welcome back! Big congratulations to you, this is such great news! It always gives me some hope to hear stories like yours. I wish you all the best with your pregnancy  .  Maybe it will still be possible for me, even with the spotting.  I do wonder if it is my cervix too, as it is worse if I have sex at that time.

Pollywally,
Thank you for your lovely message and support. So glad you have such wonderful news from your first round of IVF! Congratulations and all the best! It feels good to hear from others who really understand what it's like to have this spotting.  Some people I know, who don't have fertility issues, just don't get 'what all the fuss is about'.

Deedee,
Thank you for this. My blood is a mix of bright red and dark red and brown, different on different days. I only really get two days of what I would call AF, the other days just seem to be spotting.  The spotting is sometimes brown or pink and seems dry, sounds weird I know.  I have tried all sorts of things and nothing has really helped yet, so always good to have more suggestions.

Thank you all


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## Briss

*Wisp*, I am sorry the spotting is back, how annoying. but the good news is that acu/herbs seemed to be helping then? would you consider giving it another go?

I had a bit of a nightmare with our 3rd IVF, ended up in hospital with terrible complications - intra abdominal bleeding! no one tells you this can happen. lost lots of blood but was lucky it did not require a surgery and I recovered on my own in 5 weeks. so am now back in the IVf world, really scared but I've exhausted all other options so it's going to be natural IVf from now on.

*kerryh*, this is amazing! congratulations! so do you carry on spotting or did it stop at some point?

*deedee_spark*, interestingly I always have a day of brown to start and finish AF and from TCM it was considered that my uterus is not evacuating properly, stagnated blood etc etc basically big deal. During my last unfortunate IVf they made me have dilapam inserted into my cervix for 4 hours, very unpleasant to say the least but this works to dilate the cervix so the ET is easier. in my case it did not matter cos none of my eggs fertilsied so we did not get to ET. anyway, the interesting thing is that opening up my cervix made me have red AF with pink (for the first time I saw what pink spotting is all about) spotting at the end - no brown. my thinking is that brown spotting is not a bit issue (I mean if it does not last more than 1 day) because it's probably just due to us having tight cervix and nothing to do with how my uterus functions.


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## lama321

Hi all,

so here I go... 9 DPO and awaiting the spotting, my LP is normally only 12 days and I have spotting up to 5 days before. Pretty sure I was having the hormonal crash yesterday.. was bawling my eyes out for not a lot :-S Hormones suck! But nothing last night so that is 1 nights relief... I hate feeling nervous everytime I go to the loo incase the spotting has started! 

I also never realised before this that my breasts get bigger just before my period any way.. for months it got my hopes up!

Can I ask any one who has got pregnant with no 2... do you still get the indication from your breasts? When I got pregnant with no 1 about 3-5 days before the test turned positive I woke in the middle of the night feeling like someone had pumped my breasts up!

Also after someone suggested the hidden 'C' test I have found that other people with spotting and light periods have tested positive for chlamydia in their AF but negative in swabs... although many doctors dimiss as a con apparently. Given I was already convinced I still have an infection I wonder if that is the reason for my spotting. Any way got more antibiotics to take when AF gets here.

Funny at this stage in the month I jsut start thinking ok well lets just get this over with even though any improvement in LP / spotting would be a good thing.

My nephews cousin's birthday at the weekend... and I'm making the cake... better just try to focus on that!

Good luck to all, Lama x


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## kerryh

Thanks for the congrats Wisp. It was the oddest thing really. We had a crappy time at the fertility appointment where they suggested I have a lap (which I don't want) and then IVF (I also don't want) and then woman said going on my DH's sperm alone it wasn't looking good for us. Well I said i'd have the lap as I want to rule out future ectopics. We weren't supposed to be trying so I wasn't expecting to be pregnant at all, not to mention I was just getting my ahead around giving up and it just being the two of us! I think we've isolated the deed down to one night that we stayed out at a wild party until 4am and can't remember what we did when we got home! Amazing to think it just took that one time after what the fertility doctor said about DH's sperm. Considering he's got my pregnant 4 times in the space of 11months I think they don't always know what they are on about! 

I gave up worrying about my spotting in the end because i'm sure it's my cervix. Interesting yours is worse after sex too Wisp. 

Briss - I've never had a month without spotting expect this time. I basically had my tiny implantation bleed. Different from my usual spotting as it was just one stain on the sheets after you know what and it was very pink, and my spotting is usually brown. After that I had no spotting at all. I should have really realised I was pregnant but because we were told not to try before my lap and because I can't remember the time we had unprotected sex it never crossed my mind  

lama - no hidden C for me. Mainly because of other infections I've had at least 3 sets of antibiotics (the type that sort out C) for over a month long period in the last 3 years. It would have been caught by them. My DH did have anti bios for his sperm and it did sort out his antibodies. Since then we have conceived a lot. I'm convinced they did sort out a long term infection he had!


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## Lynsey_90

Hi Wisp - just wanted to add that I have suffered with exactly the same thing ever since I came off the pill over three years ago and could never get an explanation for it. It's very frustrating because all of the fertiity tests myself and my DH had came back clear and this was all I could come back to as to what might be wrong but to be honest, every Dr or nurse I ever raised it with said it was not a problem and wouldn't be stopping me getting pregnant. All of my blood hormone tests always came back completely normal so they were adament I didn't have a progesterone defficiency etc.

Anyway my update is that we started IVF treatment back in June and I am now 16 weeks pregnant. We were very lucky that it worked first time but the strange thing was I still got the spotting in my 2 week wait (about 5 days before my OTD) and it was EXACTLY the same spotting that I always get before my periods started - light/dark brown blood. So at this point I was absolutely convinced that it hadn't worked and spent a whole day in bed sobbing my heart out but low and behold a few days later the spotting stopped and I got a BFP on my test date! 

So I guess what I think now is that perhaps the spotting wasn't an issue after all as I still had it during my IVF cycle which ended up in a BFP. I know this isN't a definitive answer and everyone is different but I wanted to share my story with you in case this helps.

Lots of luck with whatever your next steps are.

xxx


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## lama321

Hi wisp, how are you doing? Hugs Briss, congratulations Lynsey and kerryh!

Update on what I am doing... serrapeptase, castor oil packs, frankinsence (supplements and oil), myrrh (oil), fertility massage (well what I think might break down adhesions!), agnus castus and now we have bought an exercise bike too (but only just so not relevant to this month)  Oh yeah and visulisations (Struggling with the PMA at the mo... just feel down!)

This month I didn't spot till 12 dpo... little whoop and had a 13 day LP. Better than normal so will keep it going. But period still really light (wonder if due to scarring in uterus - came across this on hidden C discussions) hence not feeling more positive.

Still worried about hidden C got antibiotics but not sure whether to take them or not. I read when you have a chronic infection it is very hard if not impossible to shift. Maybe I should wait till next HSG and see if there is any point. If tubes blocked may as well wait till after lap or before IVF... Wish I could take the hidden C test but I'm in Chile till May.

Think I will have another HSG in December so can report then whether all this has made any difference with more certainty. 

Lama xx


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## Wisp

Lama - I'm okay thank you.  Thanks for sharing what you are doing, what are castor oil packs?!  Fertility massage sounds nice, I am having a massage Sunday and I can't wait!  Spotting was less last month, btu I cant seem to find what makes it better/worse.

Lynsey, thanks for what you have said, it always helps to hear lovely news like this, congratulations!

Briss, how are you now? Sounds like you had an awful time, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yes it does seem like acu was having a positive effect, but for soem reason I just don't want to go back to it, not now anyway.


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## lama321

Hi Wisp,

The castor oil packs are some kind of natural material (you can buy it all on amazon) soaked in castor oil. You place it on your tummy wrap with cling and then place a hotwater bottle on top. I actually just put the hot water bottle in a bag instead of the cling. Start with 10-15 min... can have strong effects if you leave it on too long! 

I know what you mean about the accupuncture... I tried it for a few months (before and after I knew about PID) probably about 5 in total and then one day I had had enough and the idea doesn't really tempt me back. I was considering it mainly for my mood but not sure I really want to do it again.

Some of the things I do are more specific to the tubal damage but I think the castor oil pack can help with other issues too.. please google to be sure


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## Wisp

Sorry aven been on for sooo long! Thank you for explaining!


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