# ages 4 and 7



## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Hi, we've just been approached by our agency of a possible link of a boy who is nearly 7 and a girl who is nearly 4. They are at the very top of our age range so feeling a little confused. I guess i'd like some opinions on these ages? Hope this makes sense.


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## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

Our 2 came home at  6 and then 5 we wanted this age range, and we're very happy with that. It's what you want that counts. Have you read their CPR 's yet? What were your feelings whilst reading it? Do you feel you could parent these children?
May be write down the fore and against. 
Good luck with your decision.


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you for your reply  

We always wanted siblings from the day we decided we wanted to adopt. Our age range was 0-5 but were willing to go slightly higher as health is our number one prioity. After talking with my husband we both feel a lot more sure. I was concerned as they have just come out of a failed placement due to difficulties to attach. But that all happened very quickly, only lasted 8 weeks.  

We both feel that they need a loving home and we can provide that, yes we would have liked a younger child but like i said health is more important and i can't let them go just because they are a little older. Not read the CPR yet but have read an extended profile. 

Fingers crossed that we get the opportunity to give them a forever home


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## ultrafirebug (Oct 22, 2010)

Hi Kelloggs, will the 4 year old be starting school in September? If so and with the 7 year old moving school it might be a topic of conversation. I have an 8 year old boy and he's at a lovely age. Finds everything funny and still gives me cuddles. He plays lovely with my 4 year old niece. Good luck!


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## ultrafirebug (Oct 22, 2010)

Ah just re-read and you said just under 4. I blame all the ironing and packing for holiday lol.


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

She turns 4 in October so I presume she'd go to nursery for a few hours. Thank you it's crazy how many emotions you can experience in one day isn't it? Xx


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## ultrafirebug (Oct 22, 2010)

This journey is such a rollercoaster. Lots of decisions to make but im sure whatever you decide it will be the right one for you.


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## cosmopolitan4112008 (Oct 18, 2013)

I have no experience in adoption, but looking from the distance,  ii feel those children are more in need to be be adopted because they already know they lack the basic thing which is family and love. Attachment issue probably exists because they have been let down many times. The fact that you want siblings is so wonderful.  I think you will manage the whole  thing successfully.


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## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

The issue that would worry me is the break down of placement.  I would get as much information as possible on this including preferably meeting with the foster carer to discuss why it broke down.  You need to be sure that these two can be parented together and that adoption is the best thing for them.  If it broke down due to emotional and behavioural needs you have to think very realistically about what would be different when they lived with you - this would probably need to involve a large support package including therapeutic support for the children before it is safe for you to go ahead.  Insist on this in writing as part of the transition plan do not accept the speil of we'd always help blah blah. Recorded signed promises are what you need.  

I say this as the mum of adopted siblings my eldest was a similar age to the youngest on placement and my youngest was one.  My eldest has attachment issues but more than that tbh we're only just scratching the surface in some ways now nearly a year and a half in. I love her but she is phenomenally hard work.  She is very emotionally abusive to the degree my husband has suggested paying for therapeutic support for me as he believes I need it as a victim of abuse. However I know of a number of people who have adopted children of similar ages and had really smooth wonderful placements.  I think the fundamental thing is the child's view and belief about their situation.  My eldest didn't want to be adopted she didn't want a family and chooses to fight and reject the world.  This isn't out of loyalty to her birth family or foster carers just her feeling.  Others who've had smooth placements their children have the attitude of embracing their second chance and all the wonderful things that go with it.  Issues are things like over fearless etc but it works a lot better because they want a family.  My eldest doesn't sadly my youngest loves me more than anything and has an amazing attachments to me now so I really see the contrast.  We are a functioning family and get on with it.  Outsiders friends relatives etc would describe my eldest as sweet and well behaved as she only really shows who she is at home when there's just me and the kids. Weekend when my husband is home she's different as she doesn't want him to see it either.  We are hopefully that in time she'll learn and lessen it but ib reality it's years of work ahead.  Not trying to terrify you just think SW's brush a lot under the carpet.  Our dd fc asked for a full psychological assessment when in her care as sws told us it was an overreaction etc it wasn't xxx happy to answer any questions as I say many others have had no real problems xx


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you for your reply that is very helpful  we are going to make sure we find out exactly why it broke down especially as they only lived with them for 8 short weeks. Luckily for them they managed to go to the sane foster carer again. From reading the information we have it does say they want a forever home and the eldest just wants a daddy to play football and a mummy for cuddles. Breaks your heart. In a previous profile from the same agency they have stated that one of a sibling group doesn't want to be adopted so our social worker advised us against it as she felt it was too much for us. Was a group of 3. Guess we'll have to was and see if they shortlist us first. Fingers crossed. (Woke up feeling positive about them though)


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## Flash123 (Jan 29, 2006)

Hiya kellog, I couldn't agree with MUmmy diva more. For me, the age of these little ones isn't the issue it's the fact that a placement has broken down and all of the emotional rubbish that comes with that. I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't go ahead so please, please don't think I'm being negative I simply feel you have a huge fact finding mission ahead of you to find out everything you can about these two treasures. Attachment issues are huge; combine that with a failed placement which obviously would only compound these issues further and I would want a support package that it water tight. 

These are some of the things I would be asking:
* Why did it break down?
* what behaviours did they show illustrating lack of Attachement (would you expect a child to bond in only 8 weeks so was there more to it) 
* what support was given during that placement? 
* what support have the children been given since to help them begin to come to terms with another trauma? 
* has a sibling assessment been carried out ?
* If attachment issues are so strong a placement broke down are they involved with CAMHS, going to diagnosis etc?

Let us know how things go  and good luck xx


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

I would second what DIY Diva and Flash say,
A previous disruption is a massive red flag, you really need to proceed with caution  

You would need a robust post adoption support plan in place, these children have now had at least 3 sets of 'parents' that's a massive loss in their little lives....

Try to put the cute one liners from the files to the back of your mind, you need to use your head more than your heart at this stage. A lot of sw will only want you to hear the good stuff, they believe any negative behaviours will disappear once the children are in a loving home, often this is when problems really begin to surface...

I'm not trying to say don't do it, it could be that you're all perfect for each other, you just need to be in possession of the full facts and have all the right kind of support on board.

Wishing you lots of luck xx


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you for all the advise it's muchly appreciated. I know that the boy has an assessment with camhs at the end of this month and our agency have an amazing team of support after adoption. I've got a notepad and going to write all my concerns questions down then speak to my social worker if they choose us of course


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## cosmopolitan4112008 (Oct 18, 2013)

Cuddles and football...so sad.  Children are hungry for love and basic things.bi am aware of what other ladies warned you of, but those kids need someone to address their needs.it seems to me you are mature and willing to provide what they need.

as for a lady whose  adopted child doesn't want her husband around, I'm sure you ate aware that that child was probably abusedby a male and ddoesn't feel safe around males in general.


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## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi Kelloggs, 

I think my biggest questions would be around the breakdown of the previous placement, and the sibling relationship.

I think you should be insisting on a full sibling assessment as to whether these children should be placed together, as well as disclosure on the previous breakdown.  The fact that the previous placement broke down is going to make this one even harder, because of course they are going to struggle even more than they would have done anyway with the idea that this could be a permanent family.  That would be the work of many, many years to try and help them through.

I think you should be asking for a significant support package, both financial and therapeutic.

In all honesty, this is a placement which rings some pretty serious alarm bells.  Love does not fix everything, good parenting doesn't fix everything, and if you end up with two children who have very conflicting needs and who struggle to be together, that could be a real issue.  

I would ask for the previous potential adopters views on why the placement broke down.  I realise they will be going through hell right now, but the chances are they have loved these children, even if the placement didn't work, and would be willing to share their views on why it didn't work.

All the best whatever you decide,

Wyxie xx


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

It says that they are on very well as brother and sister but yes it's definitely another question that we will be exploring further. We feel more comfortable that it's our agency as if it was another I would stay well clear as id be too concerned with the support. Luckily our agency are amazing and have theraplay support workers. Hopefully we'll find out by the end of the week if they've shortlisted us. Thanks again as it means so much xxx


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## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Cosmopolitan while I'm sure your advice is well meaning please read properly before commenting. I didn't say my dd didn't want my husband around I said that she doesn't exhibit her most abusive behaviours when he is around. I am obviously very aware of my daughters issues as I am the person that lives with them and works relentlessly day after day on them with her. Also I personally think that while more violent and obviously abusive behaviours are often attributed to men the majority of neglect is often committed by birth mothers and neglect is by far the most damaging form of abuse on brain development severe head injury resulting in brain damage aside (and it would need to be severe resulting in serious levels of brain damage to be more damaging than neglect.) 

Kelloggs if armed with all the information you are confident that this is the placement for you then fantastic. Again I would stress getting therapeutic support promised in writing as often PAS assessments say that support isn't necessary etc you are in the strongest bargaining position before formally committing to a placement so use the power of this time to ensure the best for your family if this is the right thing for you. Good luck keep us posted and ask any further questions you need. xxxxx


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## cosmopolitan4112008 (Oct 18, 2013)

Mammy DIY: right, I just went back and read it again.  Now, I understood the sentence. I hope the child will overcome issues and live life normally.


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

I think this week is going to drag!! Makes it worse that our social worker is on holiday so i can't find anything out really. Still feeling positive about it but obviously i know there is a lot to find out. Will keep you all updated


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## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

How frustrating is there anyone else in the team who'll deal with it while she's away. Xxx


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

I can contact another social worker but I've never spoken to him before. But they aren't even shortlisting us so we may not even have a chance to find more out. We should find out on Friday or early next week. By then she'll be back anyway  

I posted on adoption UK and someone said why are the children being placed together. I'm confused as to why they wouldn't be?


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok spooky!! The other social worker just phoned me. He wants to send me the cpr. They will also send us the minutes from the breakdown placement etc.


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## Flash123 (Jan 29, 2006)

At the moment there is a growing amount of research and credit given to 'trauma bonds' and the way in which they can impact attachment and basically impede hugely on a child's ability to move on from the trauma they have experienced. Some believe they can be so damaging that some siblings should not be placed together. It may be well worth you researching them. 

Fab news about you getting the notes. Perhaps more will come to life when you read them and the CPR.


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## GERTIE179 (Apr 20, 2005)

Yes sibling trauma is very real and if you check auk facts sheets you can see that kids being older on placement of as part of a sibling group can be attributed to those who disrupted.

That being said they are very successful sibling placements too it's about being aware of things, asking the right questions to make an informed decision.

X


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## Kelloggs (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you again for all your help  still waiting for my email hopefully be here in the next couple of days. Will keep you updated 😁


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