# ttc at 44



## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi everyone, I'm new here and so happy to have found you all. I find myself at 44 suddenly desperate for a family and my partner of 3 years has decided that he is not ready to have more children. He has two from his marriage and likes our life as it is. I am now taking the step of considering using donor sperm. I am devastated that he has taken this view and wondered if anyone else here has been in a similar situation. I have been to the Lister and undergone various tests and all so far has been very positive. I am at the stage now of having to decide wether to use a donor or give my partner more time. I would love to hear from any one that has used donor sperm.
Thank you so much. It so lovely to read all your amazing posts, they are so positive.


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## Gillian_L (Jan 18, 2007)

Hi Lynne, Congratulations on your first post!

I'm in a similar position to you. I'm now 45, and my partner and I have also been trying to conceive for 3 years. We have had a few very early miscarriages. We had all the tests and basically there's nothing wrong bar our ages and partner does have a lower than average sperm count. My partner also has grown up children and now 2 new granddaughters even though he's younger than me! (He started early first time around!) 

Like your partner he has now got to the stage where he is happy to be a grandad and is telling me that havng children is not the be all and end all. He does not want to go for any further treatment, but would be happy if I got pregnant by chance. 

I have tried to accept this and have spent the last 5 or 6 months just trying to get over my desire....but I can't. 

When I read your post my heart went out to you! 

My tests too were very positive and I feel deep down that I do have a chance IF I'm prepared to make an effort, but my partner only wants it to happen by luck.

We are both facing the same choice....and....we can't wait much longer! You are considering giving your partner more time. This is hard, but, if your partner is not ready at 44 do you think he will be at 50? (I'm assuming you are both around the same age?).
My honest feeling for you is go for it, don't waste any time! I know you love your partner. If he loves you he will respect your decision and possibly still be around for you, or he will change his mind and be the father himself!

I also have to follow my own advice, and your post, and my heartfelt sadness for you has made up my own mind about what I will do!
Thank you for that. I know what an awul dilemma it is.

The very very best of luck to you.


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Gillian, Oh its so good to talk to somebody in the same situation. I have a wonderful relationship apart from this and now I cant help but feel resentment building. My partner is 47 and his children are 7 and 11. It makes it doubly hard for me as I spend a lot of time with them and can see that if we had our own child it would only make a wonderful bond between all of us. I know it is his choice and his right to not want more children but I also feel thta he is being selfish. I am at the stage where I have selected my donor and now I really must make a choice. The added complication is that I had a post coital test and it showed all the sperm were non motile. I have yet to tell my partner as I am worried that he will say its obviously just not meant to be. After reading your post I do feel that I must act now too. Good luck and you never know maybe your partner will come around too. Like you said though, time is not on our side and I feel like you. Its so good to meet some one who knows how this feels.


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Dear Ladies

Not in your position but which you the best of luck with your difficult dilemmas.

I am 43 in 2 weeks time and on my 2 ww and husband is 47.  I am quite a veteran on ff and this situation seems quite common.

I know the feeling of wanting to conceive as have been ttc for over 7 years.

Just wanted to wish you lots of love and glad you have found each other

Berniex


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## laurainhk (Jul 20, 2008)

Hi there,
i am on the same boat.

I thought i could live happily without a family, but instead i became very depressed and restless at the thought of never having a child. For many years  i was involved with men who didn't want children, and therefore never had many chances of getting pregnant. In hindsight i should have explored the donor route much earlier instead of hoping in a miracle. 

I am 44, and suffer from secondary infertility (got pregnant naturally 15 years ago, a summer fling, but it was ectopic and i lost a tube as a result).
Then i wasted 5 more years (precious time for someone my age) trying to get pregnant naturally with a new partner who wanted children, before discovering that his sperm was an issue. Unfortunately we split up last year, and i have been single since. Well, not really single, I am in a relationship with a man 8 years younger than me but we have no intention to live together. He is also not interested in having a child. 

I think i have been in denial about my age for many years: being fit, looking much younger, and hanging out with younger people blinded me to the fact that my eggs are probably aging faster than the rest of my body. 

I live in Hong Kong, where the legislation makes it impossible for unmarried women to receive fertility treatments.

The last time i checked my FSH it was 6, which sounds like very good news, but i was told that at my age it can fluctuate dramatically.

Now i am considering going to Brno in the Czech Republic, and using donor sperm.

Still undecided as to whether i should use my own eggs. The stats are not very good for people my age, and the cost involved in going to Europe for treatment is very high.


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi there, yes its hard when you suddenly realise you so desperately want a family. I feel so strange after years of not feeling this way. People tell me " oh well it was your choice not to have a family" but we all have the right to change and I find few people that understand. It makes me feel very alone. Doubly so when I love my partner and he would rather leave than enjoy this with me. I hope you find a way to have treatment. Thinking of you.


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Dear laurain me had 3 gos with my own eggs in uk cost 15k.am 2 thinkin bout de at reprofit but believe it only cost bout â‚¬1.100 with own eggs ther.heard good things bout it.good luck 2 all berniex


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## Gillian_L (Jan 18, 2007)

Hi Lynne, Bernie and laura!

I'm delighted that this thread is ongoing, I thought there had been no further response as I didn't get notification at my email address. I thought I'd ticked the notify box but I hadn't! So sorry for not getting back on earlier.

Its lovely to meet you all. I'm wondering how you are all getting on and if you have made any progress?

I have decided to look into donated sperm, (perhaps with stimulation?) and my own eggs (for now). When I have made enquiries and decisions about where to go for this I will print off the info and talk to my partner about how he feels. I know he doesn't like the subject much, but it is too important to me. He will have to decide whether he wants to participate with his sperm, or stay with me while I go the donor route, or leave me. I don't want him to leave me, I want him to be the father of my child. He wants it to happen only naturally, but we have to be realistic.

Does anyone have any ideas where to start? My understanding is that donor sperm is hard to come by, if not impossible, in the UK. I know it can be done in Denmark, but believe it is expensive there. Then there is talk of Turkey, Athens, and Spain. I'm not sure what each specializes in and what costs are involved. How do you make a decision? Anyone got any ideas/info? I think I'm going to look into Spain, just because I'd be happier holidaying there during treatment.

*Lynne-* how i it progressing for you? Any decisions made? Are you taking any action yet? Its so hard thinking of going it alone when you are with someone that you love isn't it?

*Laura- * It must be even more difficult for you being in Hong Kong. I have the same problem about the shame of using a donor, my parents will probably find it incomprehensible.

*Bernie-* I have heard of Brno in Czech Republic. It seems very popular, is this because of price? Or success rates? Or both? Have you come to any decisions as yet about whether to use your own eggs?

Good luck to all of you, lets keep in touch....I have now used the notify button, so I'll be back!


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Lynne, Laura and Gillian

I am at moment waiting to hear back from Stepfan the dr at Reprofit as he wants to see us if we considering using our own eggs but he on leave at mo.

We have spent about 16k on treatment in UK without success.  have done a lot of research into Reprofit and impressed with them.

Gillian funny what you said about parents and donor sperm/eggs.  My parents Irish Catholic and in early 80s and doubtlessly would feel the same but sometimes women in our situation worry about what other ppl think (my dh says that anyway) and I dont think we have the luxury of that at our ages.  My older sister said not to tell them or any1 else if we don't want to and I kinda agree about that.

In fact I was getting in a muddle caus if we decide to have 1 more go at IVF with my eggs we will have to decide to use rest of Johns leave this year to go to Brno or go and see our families in Ireland.  He has used so much of his leave with my 3 attempts at IVF.

Because of all the Ivf during the last year or so I havent been there for 18 mths and I worry I might not see them again - live in own home but have help and quite frail.  I feel selfish not going but for good reason.  There worrying about other ppl!

Ladies when I first read about your plans to go ahead and possibly use donor sperm whilst still in relationships I thought how can those relationships survive and possibly the men been a bit selfish

But on reflection I have had difficulties in my own marriage in the past and if ppl want to be together it is nobody elses business whatever the circumstances.  In fact I will probably not be the biological mother of my child which although for different reasons will leave me in same circumstances.

I wish you lots of luck and hope I have not upset anybody with my post.  Life is so difficult sometimes and I have lots of regrets in my life too.  It is my 43rd birthday and I was crying earlier about not having a child and John trying to comfort me.

Luv to all 

Bernie


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## Gillian_L (Jan 18, 2007)

Hi Bernie,

First of all HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I hope that this is your lucky year! Every good wish to you!     

I'm wondering why Stepfan wants to see you if you are considering using your own eggs? Possibly wants to go through your chances and then recommend donor eggs. You might have to be prepared to stick to your guns if you want to give it a final go with your own eggs. Its a shame that you have to travel so far for that appointment and miss your chance to visit your parents, but as you say you MUST put yourselves first this time. This is too important.

I also wonder how my realtionship with my other half will survive if I have to use donor sperm. He says also that we don't need to tell my mum and dad that that's what we did, but I wonder how he would cope when people say "Oh, he/she's got your eyes!" (or "I wonder where those brown eyes came from, not like either of yours"!). Also I couldn't lie to the child, I would have to tell them eventually that we didn't use Daddies seed but got some from the hospital instead. I wonder how my other half would cope when they were old enough to say "you're not my dad!" in an argument. He's a sensitive man and I think these things will worry him from the start and he will regret not using his own sperm. 

To be honest I can't really see the logic of him not wanting to use his sperm, unless he just doesn't want me around forever. He says he does. It doesn't really make perfect sense to me. Far from being upset at your initial reaction to this donor situation I am glad that you wondered how will the relationship survive and if he is being selfish. I too have wondered about this a lot, and I wondered if I was right in thinking that way. But when Lynne made her initial post on here I knew that what I felt for her I should also feel for myself. This is just too important to give up on. I must make the effort even if my other half will not be involved in it. It is my life and I don't want to have regrets and bitterness for the rest of it.

I really hope you get the birthday present that I know you want the most in the world! Good luck for your meeting in Brno. Let us know how you get on....

Gillian x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Gillian

How long you been together?  It does seem a bit strange for him not to want to use his own sperm if there nothing wrong with it.  If I go for de it will be for a medical reason. Stephan said he is keen for me to have another go with my own eggs - my dh worried though as we been through so much and hates to see me upset.  He said of course they will say yes as they want the money but the money is much less than half that of attempt at Lister although you have your accommodation and flights to add on.

I think donor sperm is available at Reprofit.  I know it a Eastern European country but I heard they spotless.  In fact I got a UTI last time at Lister.

Are you in London?

I will definitely keep in touch.

Your situation is quite common with a lot of men having children already and not keen to start a 2nd family.

I have seen even much younger women in that situation.

Good luck

Berniex


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## Gillian_L (Jan 18, 2007)

Hi Bernie,

We've been together a little over 4 years and ttc for 3 and a half. I got pregnant over 2 years ago and my other half was delighted. Unfortunately miscarried at 6 weeks and have had a few 'chemical' pregnancies since then. He does have a poor sperm count and I think he worries that it's because of the quality of his sperm that we are failing. I have tried to explain that if we have treatment they will only pick out his best swimmers and my best eggs for the best chance of success. But he seems to shut down at this point.

He is a good man, but frankly I'm a little tired of his over-sensitivity to failure. Am I supposed to miss out on ever having a family because he might get upset at 'failure'? As far as I'm concerned we will have only failed if we do not try. If we try and are not succesful, then I will be content knowing we gave it the chance. When he had his sons (in his 20s) it just happened by 'magic'   and he thinks it should be that way now, he doesn't want to think about cycles and hormones and drugs. Lucky him.

I know you are upset with it being your birthday and you do not yet have what you thought you would at this stage. its so heartbreaking. I don't know if it helps, but if you think about how lovely and supportive your partner is, and how you know your children will be part of him too, maybe you will feel just a little better. I wish my partner was more like yours and it would be one less problem to worry about, and I wouldn't feel so alone in this. We have trouble even talking about it now. 

If I was ten years younger I might even consider looking for someone else, but I don't have the luxury of time to meet anyone new now. I do love my boyfriend, but I wish he was more in tune with me on this.

Yes, I do live in London. (Well Twickenham actually, so Middlesex, but London phone code!).

Anyway, I'm supposed to be revising for some exams and have been avoiding it, so I'd better get back to that. Hope you enjoy the rest of your birthday and get some lovely pressies!

Best Wishes,
Gillian x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

So u only used clomid b4 2 hav chemical preg apart from the natural mc?so no ivf yet?u said u went 2 lister and ur stats wer good?so all he hav 2 provide is sperm?women go thru  everythin else in ivf.who u c there?bernie


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Gillian - just to let you know that both LWC (London Womens Clinic) and Bridge (also in London) both have plenty of donor sperm available - there are lots of us single girls having treatment there.
The thing about using a donor in the UK is that the child can look up their biological father when they reach 18 (no guarantee they will find them of course, but they have that option open to them as all donors are registered and have to agree to this)

You don't have this abroad where the majority of donors are completely anonymous. 

I've stuck with LWC so far because I felt it was important to me to have donor ID release sperm. However after 2 failed IVF I am now considering going abroad - although the sperm is anonymous, it means I can afford two cycles for the cost of one in the UK (eg at Reprofit in Czech). 
I've got 2 frozen embies at LWC though, so going back for those first

I know this is probably an obvious question - but have you and your partner tried counselling to get to the bottom of his reluctance to go ahead with his sperm? Seems that he's committed to you and to your relationship and it just seems rather strange that he's prepared to let you go ahead and use donor sperm when there's no medical reason to do so....wondering if an objective chat with a counsellor might help?

Wishing you all the best, hope it all works out for you,
Laura
x


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi everyone. Well to update you, I have just ordered my donor sperm ! I did this through the Lister without any difficulties. I have not talked to my partner about this as he has previously told me that as far as more kids are concerned he is not interested but might be in the future. He says this with the knowledge that I am now 45. Our relationship to all intents and purposes is good but inside I have already moved away from him. Its difficult and I am all over the place, but one thing I am now sure of is the fact that I will try and have my family come what may. I am not prepared any more to love his children and spend my time with them and never have my own ( god willing). I am just waiting to hear from the clinic and then its all sytems go. I have to say that my dad is a catholic, comes from a large family of nine kids, incidentally my grandmother had her last child at 49 ! I talked to him about this and he was so supportive. Those that truly love us will always be there for us, this is what made me decide that that my partner obviously doesnt.love and luck to all of you. Lynne


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Dear Lynne

Me from a very similar background to you - my dad one of 10 and dh one of 8.

All large Catholic families.

Good Luck

Bernie


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## marinegirl (Aug 5, 2008)

I am 44 and also ttc so I can understand how you must be feeling.  I think you have made the right decision.  I asked my partner if he would still have agreed to ivf with me if he thought we might split up sometime in the future and he said yes, and that he thought I would also still go ahead with ivf even if I thought we might split up sometime in the future.  The truth is that life can only exist in the present so we must try to enjoy each day as it comes, at least most of it, and not try to second guess the future.  The most important thing is to follow your dreams so that you can die with no regrets for things you did not try to achieve when you still could.  

I have had 3 failed attempts at ivf this year after ttc for 2 years with my partner.  I found my soulmate late in life, it was the first man that I trusted to start a family with.  The first attempt looked so promising with 3 x 8 cell embryos implanted but no result.  The second was horrific, no eggs collected.  The third was disappointing, only 1 x 2 cell embryo which did not implant.  I am having all the bloods and hycosy done to see if there is any problem other than age and fibroids.  Already considering the ED route as plan B.

Any ladies out there tried Create Health? The statistics are almost unbelievable, ie 22% instead of 2% @ age 44 (for mild ivf).


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi marinegirl and welcome.hav heard of create but wher r they?must look themup good luck berniex


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Marinegirl got the stats from createhealth.am goin 2 hav a consultation with them on 2nd sept.they just down the road from me in raynes pk.jus another option.lot cheaper than lister.u all gon quiet l8ly berniex


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi everyone. Well I begin iui next month. My partner is moving out so I guess I'm doing this alone. Very sad and lonely at the moment and wondering if its all worth it x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Lynne that sounds a great invitation. hav always wanted 2 go stratford.but me been in a relationship 4 18 yrs so i dont think i wld qualify.i had looked thru ur previous posts and u had seemed so positive but the reality of ur partner leavin is near.i suppos u hav the choice of stayin with him but would u hav regrets.he has had the blessings of havin children.much luv 2u.hav u pmed gillian and laura?u around ladies?xxx 2u lynnex


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## laurainhk (Jul 20, 2008)

Dear Lynn,
it's a very tough decision, but at our age we are just a bit wiser, and know ourselves better. My advice is not to let anything or anyone get between you and your dream. We can't afford regrets.
If your partner is supportive of your decision, great. If he isn't, then ask yourself if you can choose your partner over having a child. There are few guarantees in life, and unfortunately IVF doesn't guarantee success. 

My situation is similar, though there are has been a great development over the summer.
I am in a relationship with a younger guy who doesn't want children, not at this stage. I sat down with him and explained that i respect his decision, but if i don't try to conceive i will regret it for the rest of my life.  I told him that i would do IVF with a donor, and that if i have a child i don't expect anything from him. If he wants to continue our relationship, i'd be happy, and there will always be a place for him in my life. I also told him that the success rate is very low, and that he might find out that after IVF nothing will change between us. He is very reasonable and hasn't made a big fuss.

The unexpected development is that while i was on holiday in Italy, i spent a few days at the seaside with an ex-boyfriend of mine (we were together in our 20s and are still very close) and he told me of his desire to have a child and how hard is to find the right person. We admitted to each other that we should have had our child back then, because in all these years we just experimented with people who were not a good match for us. We met when we were too young to get serious, and yet we had an amazing relationship, where respect and tolerance went hand in hand with passion and shared dreams. Life circumstances took me to Hong Kong, while he spent time in Afghanistan and Lebanon, working as a nurse for an NGO. We kept in touch for 20 years, providing emotional support and soulful advice, and we still feel deep love for each other. We share the same values and never followed a conventional path in life.
We decided that he will be my donor, and are planning to go to Reprofit, in the Czech Republic, for IVF. 

If we succeed, he will move to Hong Kong and get involved in the child's life. If we don't, we will try something else together...maybe buy a house in the countryside and turn it into a haven for the sick and emotionally scarred children he meets in war zones.


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## marinegirl (Aug 5, 2008)

Laura - I was really happy for you when I read your story.  You might even find that having a child brings you back together.  A friend of mine rediscovered her love from Uni at 40, had a child with him and then they settled down.  These days when women have the same choices as men in many areas we can have a second bite at the cherry as well, meaning that we successfully start families later in life when we have done our travelling and  experimentation and find someone with a similar mindset.  

Lynne – you are very brave, I think I would do what you have done in your position.  This major life decision seems to be a test of your relationship that showed you what is really important to you and to him.  Just because you are single when you have a child does not mean that you will stay single.  My mother found her present husband when she had a toddler and settled down with him!

On another note can I ask you ladies for advice on my blood test levels so that I am as well prepared as possible for a consultation I have on Monday when I must decide whether to opt for mild IVF or ED.  I have collected my results from the GP and they are LH 3, FSH 7, Oestradiol 225 (mIU/L).  Does anyone know what that means?

marinegirl x


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Laura,
wow ! I was so amazed when I read your post. It was obviously meant to be and I hope with all my heart all of your dreams come true. When I read it, I just felt so uplifted. What a wonderful thing you are both doing.
Marinegirl, I'm not sure about your results, all of this is so new to me but I am sure someone will be able to explain it all! You are right, it was a real test of our relationship. I think I always knew though that he wasnt the kind of man to be there for me. Two years ago my dad was diagnosed with cancer and he left , two months later he was back. My dad has never forgiven him for that. He is basically very selfish but I loved him anyway. I feel a bit wobbly and daunted at the moment. Due for my insemination next month and keep feeling very panicked by it all. thank you all for your support. I really need it at the moment ! Lynne x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi lynne good 2 hear from u.i was thinkin ofu.how ur dad now?has ur bf moved out yet?sounds like he found commitment hard.ru in london?me a bit worried as started my period 22 days after last.but the last was after the 2ww in my last ivf cycle.just a bit worry as my amh is low and am concerned startin menopause.luv 2 al l berniex


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Bernie,
yes I'm really close to london, having my treatment at the Lister. My dad is better. He had his stomach removed ( stomach cancer), chemo and radiotherapy. He is struggling with depression at the moment but is in remission. Are you in London ? Lynne x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi lynne.me in just os london in motspur pk.midway betwn kingston and wimbledon.i hav a nephew 4 yr old call thady and his uncle on his dads side had his stomach removed thru cancer bout 18 mths ago.he has got v depressed this year so it very common.me up at lister next thur 2c counsellor again.whou under ther.cant afford any mor treatment ther!keep in touch berniex


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Bernie, Its been tough with my dad. I think its very normal in that situation to suffer with depression. I have just started with the lister and know what you mean about the costs. Not sure how far I can afford to go. I've had no problems in the past and all my tests have been good. The only thing I have noticed is that my periods have started getting closer , not a huge amount but noticable. I'm concerned that I've left it all too late. I'm due for my insemination at the beginning of september. They wanted to do it on a natural cycle but the feedback hasnt been positive. I think they would have been happier to start with IVF but listened to my need to try by myself to begin with. I hope all goes well on thurs. I had one councelling session but found it confused me more !
would love to hear how it goes. Lynne x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Lynne how ru?u startin ur treatment next week.hi 2 all u ladies.went 2 reprofit the wkend.very impressed but 10mth waitin list 4 de berniex


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Bernie, going for my 10 day scan tomorrow and hopefully will have iui fri or sat. feeling all over the place at the moment and just praying I'm lucky. Lynne x


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## marinegirl (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi Lynne

Just wanting to wish you good luck for tomorrow's 10 day scan.  My 10 day scan will be next Monday.  Are you doing it on a natural cycle with IUI?  If so no side effects I guess which must be great.  I am finding the half dose of drugs with mild ivf at Create Health much more manageable in terms of side effects or maybe it is because I am a veteran, now onto hopefully my 3rd real attempt (by which I mean leading to EC and ET).

If this does not work I might go along to the Lister open day at the beginning of October.  Do you have any clue what ivf short protocol costs there?  At Create Health I paid just over £3,100, which is not much less than at Guys NHS, small saving on drugs.

marinegirl x


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## lynne 5 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hi Marinegirl, scan went well and the big day is planned for friday ! I'm not sure of the costs at the Lister but can find out for you on friday. Very very nervous at the mo. Lynne x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Good luck lynne.ur very brave and strong.hav u heard from ur ex partner at all?marine i can help with costs 4 ivf at lister it 4.5k inc icsi but not inc blastocyst or drugs.it very expensive.hopefully u wont  hav 2 go ther!i kept thinkin bout what ur dp call professor campbell-soup!wonder what flavour?he scottish.isnt mulgantory flavour-scottish.still thinkin bout tryin create but it only 10% chance.i hav heard ther another clinic in czech rep with less of a waitin list 4 de.so mayb off on my travels again.good luck berniex


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## marinegirl (Aug 5, 2008)

Bernie - the price at Create for one cycle of mild IVF (without ICSI) is now £3300 inc drugs, I needed to buy more gonal f.  Hope there will be no more hidden costs.  Having said that it is still a little cheaper than on the NHS at Guys.  Where does all the tax payer's money go?  60 billion to prop up Northern Rock apparently!

Lynne - glad scan went well, what did they see?  My scan today was good for mild IVF, three follicles and two of them in the accessible ovary...

marinegirl x


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## Be Lucky (Mar 22, 2008)

Marine well done.will any more develop by tues do they think.it not that cheap at create is it then?i dont think i will hav a go ther but just wait 4 de as patiently as i can.seein counsellor at lister next thur.marine hadu a limit 2 how many gos u will hav with oe?i think i hav reached with limit now.good luck berniex


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