# Question regarding the Swine Flu Vaccine



## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Hi. Sorry to be asking another swine flu related question. I have read with interest your replies to other posts on the subject, however still have questions and can't seem to find anyone who can answer them properly. The nurse at my GP surgery couldn't help and the midwife also didn't seem to have an answer. I read in your reply to a previous post that there are higher mercury levels in things like tinned tuna than in Pandermix, however when I have the seasonal flu jab for the last few years because I've been either pg or breastfeeding I've had to ring the manufacturers to check the one my GP is administering is thiomersal free. After speaking to them this year they confirmed that they do not give the jab containing thiomersal to pregnant or breastfeeding women and only recommend the thiomersal free vaccine for them. So my question is, why will they not give a seasonal flu jab containing thiomersal to pg or breastfeeding women yet they are saying the swine flu vaccine containing it is ok for pg or breastfeeding women? The advice just doesn't seem consistent.

Thanks in advance.

Rosie. xxx


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## mazv (Jul 31, 2006)

Hi Rosie,

The advice is consistent in as much as the preference is to use thiomersal free if possible but that there is no evidence of increased risk with thiomersal from the evidence that we do have.

Very long story bound up in vaccination programme in the USA and the 'numpty' of the doctor that linked possible use of vaccines containing thiomersal to neurodevelopmental problems e.g. autism. This propsed link has been totally refuted in the intervening years with the huge naturalistic studies carried out on entire countries populations. Damage was done though and ever since manufacturers have been developing new techniques for vaccines that are thiomersal free.

The problem with developing the swine flu vaccine is that it had to be made on a large scale and also in multi dose vials in order to get the larger quantities available in the time frame required. Hence GSK went with the tried and tested technology of adding small doses of thiomersal to preserve the vial for multiple use. They also added adjuvant in order to get the best immune response from the smaller amounts of antigen available (inactive virus).

The seasonal flu vaccine is a single dose vaccine that has been developed over the years without the need for preservative but they just couldn't use that formula to make the amount of swine flu vaccine needed in the time frame required. I've left links on various other threads to information about the evidence base for thiomersal. Critically appraising the evidence base that is available from the large scale retrospective studies that have been conducted across the world then I don't belive there is a statistically increased risk of harm from the use of thiomersal in vaccines. However the negative publicity has made such a detrimental impact on childhood vaccination campaigns worldwide that it is now more important to ensure vaccination to provide immunity to the whole population, so for that reason thiomersal is now being phased out from most vaccines.

All the above is obviously personal opinon based on the facts as I understand and interpret them. 
Maz x


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## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Thanks for your reply Maz. Sorry in advance for throwing a few more questions at you. 



mazv said:


> The advice is consistent in as much as the preference is to use thiomersal free if possible but that there is no evidence of increased risk with thiomersal from the evidence that we do have.


As the Celpevan (sp?) is thiomersal free then it is possible to use thiomersal free for pg and breastfeeding women, so why don't they offer a choice to pg and breastfeeding women? And as pg women don't have jabs containing thiomersal then there is also no evidence that it is safe for the unborn baby either then surely?



mazv said:


> Very long story bound up in vaccination programme in the USA and the 'numpty' of the doctor that linked possible use of vaccines containing thiomersal to neurodevelopmental problems e.g. autism. Thsi propsed link has been totally refuted in the intervening years with the huge naturalistic sutdies carried out on entire countries populations. Damage was done though and ever since manufacturers have been developing new techniques for vaccines that are thiomersal free.


There has recently been a landmark case (and since then further cases) where there have been huge payouts in the US because of links between mercury in old MMR jabs and damage to children. I've attached one link I've found but have been reading up on this for a while, and what struck me particularly were some comments by the head of the Autism research unit in Sunderland, and the attachment here gives a small snipped of what he has said: http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/tm_headline=court-links-mmr-to-autism&method=full&objectid=20587416&siteid=50081-name_page.html There is a lot more I've been reading on the subject but at the moment I don't have time to try and find it all, sorry. Obviously this does not prove there is absolutely a link as such however it does provide enough 'reasonable doubt' for you to question it's safety.

Don't get me wrong I have asthma and want to get the jab, however I have a big problem with being told I can't have a seasonal jab containing thiomersal and then knowing there are 2 swine flu jabs, one thiomersal free and I'm not given a choice - that is just wrong.

Also, I was told that the seasonal flu jab would not pass on immunity to flu to my baby or through breastfeeding, however I've read some posts on here where people have been told the swine flu vaccine will - is that right?

Thanks in advance for your reply and thanks for taking the time to answer my concerns.

Rosie. xxx

/links


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## mazv (Jul 31, 2006)

Hi Rosie,

To be honest I think for your own personal concerns then you need to speak to your GP or midwife about this as I have tried to give as balanced a viewpoint as I can given the scientific evidence available.

The thoimersal free vaccine Celvepan was developed by Baxter's but not in the quantities that they originally promised. It's not a case of conspiracy by the government stopping people accessing this injection. It simply is not available in the quantities required to undertake a mass public vaccination campaign. As this vaccine is not produced from chick cells then it is necessary to reserve it for people who have documented analphylactic egg allergy. If it were available in large enough quantities at present then it probably would preferrentally be given to pregnant women. However it isn't so the only option we have is to use the Pandemrix. It is up to the individuals to decide if they want to take this up or not. Obviously needs to be balanced against the risks of getting swine flu in pregnany and any other underlying conditions.

Neither Celvepan nor Pandemrix have been trialled in pregnancy as you can't ethically enrol pregnant women into clinical trials. If you want to take it to the common demominator then there is no evidence that Celvepan is any 'safer' than Pandemrix. I've left links on other threads to the MHRA website and other website on the evidence for the use of thiomersal in vaccines and there being no statistical increase in the risk of neurodevelopmental disorders in children (basically this is being used as the basis for the license of Pandemrix in pregnancy, no statistical risk in developing children therefore unlikely to be in a developing foetus) The one thing we do know for sure is that catching swine flu does pose an increased risk to pregnant women and their unborn babies.

The US is a highly litigatious society and I'm sure you'll find any lawyer willing to sue to proove that the earth is actually flat. On an individual case basis then I'm not overly surprised that there has been one successful case to date and as you say lots more pending. The compelling argument against MMR linked to autisim was the retrospective naturalistic study done following the controversy in 1998 where the entire medical health records of Finalnd were analysed and every child vaccinated with MMR since the early 1980's in that country was montiored and no statistical link to any increase in autistic spectrum (or other developmental disorder) was found. Similar studies have been conducted in other countries since (including USA & Canada) and again no link has been found. As yet the reason for the increase in cases of autism across the world has not been defined. No one causitive factor has ever been identified. Given the complexity of genetic & environmental influences in all mental health disorders then I very much doubt it ever will.

As I say the above is my own opinion based on my interpretation of the evidence. It is up to individuals to interpret and believe what they wish as the facts appear to them.

Also to put it all in context the safest thing you can do for your unborn childs health is to not get in a car and drive every day; as that is by far riskier than contracting swine flu or having an adverse reaction to a vaccine.

Hope this answers some of your questions?
Maz x


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## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Thanks Maz. I have tried asking the nurse who administers both the seasonal flu jab and will be doing the swine flu jabs at my surgery but she didn't have a clue and couldn't answer any of my questions. Similarly the midwife was stuck and unable to help, so I feel at such a loss as to who to speak to, you just end up trying to do your own reading and research but that throws up so many questions. I very much appreciate you taking the time to answer my post and in so much detail too. 

By the way, did you have a chance/ know the answer to my last question regarding whether or not after having the swine flu vaccine you pass immunity to your baby either before birth or during breastfeeding?

I can understand what you're saying about the Celvepan and it's a shame that they have been unable to deliver the quantities originally thought. On that basis I think it's very unlikely that I'll be bale to get my GP surgery to agree to letting me have that vaccine. I understand that there is no evidence it is any safer than the Pandemix but given the general advice on other vaccines is to avoid thiomersal where possible, then personally I would feel more comfortable if I was able to have the Cevepan, but obviously that may not be possible. 

I agree abut the US being highly litigatious in general, but what's more telling to me is that the Autism research unit in Sunderland has not discounted a link between thiomersal and autism and indeed their research is still ongoing. If you start looking then I'm sure you can find as much research to support the theory as you can to discount it. For example there is statistical evidence from a study in Japan which shows the number of Japanese children developing autism from 1998 to 1995 rose and fell in direct proportion to the number of children vaccinated each year. Whilst there is still any question mark over this subject I am naturally wary of being responsible for making the decision that may lead to an illness for my child. 

On the other hand I really don't want to be one of the small number of pregnant women reported by the media who gets swine flu, develops complications and leaves my babies without a Mum. It is a very tough decision and either way I feel like I'm taking a gamble with the safety of my child because none of us know what the future of swine flu or the vaccine will bring.

Sorry for wafflling - I realise I have concerns that can't really be answered yet, but I do really appreciate you taking the time to give such thorough responses. 

Thanks again

Rosie. xxx


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## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Hi Maz. Hope ou don't mind me bumping this up to see if you knew the answer to this:



Rosie P said:


> By the way, did you have a chance/ know the answer to my last question regarding whether or not after having the swine flu vaccine you pass immunity to your baby either before birth or during breastfeeding?


Thanks

Rosie. xxx


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## mazv (Jul 31, 2006)

Hi Rosie,

Sorry not to reply before now, I didn't get a chance to at weekend (was away partying  ) and because I'd already read your post it didn't flag up with a new reply when I was doing replies last night. Think I've got a few to go back over from weekend too 

Unborn babies and newborn breastfed babies will recieve immunity to disease from the mother assuming that they have the relevant antibodies. This is a passive immunity which is tranisient and not long lasting so won't protect them for life. I've copied the relevant section from the DoH immunisation handbook that explains this.

_Passive immunity is protection provided from the transfer of antibodies from immune individuals, most commonly across the placenta or less often from the transfusion of blood or blood products including immunoglobulin. Protection provided by the cross-placental transfer of antibodies from mother to child is more effective against some infections (e.g. tetanus and measles) than for others (e.g. polio and whooping cough). This protection is temporary - commonly for only a few weeks or months._

As the vaccine is so new though we don't know to what extent passive immunity will protect the baby and how long effects, if any, will last after birth. At the moment advise is that children over 6 months with risk factors will need vaccinated so I'd assume that passive immunity won't last all that long.

Hadn't read the Japanense study but will have a search on Medline and see if I can find it. Would have issues with how applicable this is to a European setting though given the higher exposure of the Japanese population to methylmercury through diet (much higher ingestion of fish per capita than most other countries) so I suspect it would be extremely difficult to link directly with exposure to thiomersal from vaccines? I don't know what the Japanese immunisation schedule is though so no idea what they use in childhood. From everything I have read and from looking at the kinetics and pharmacology of thiomersal I just can't see how it can be linked with neurodevelopmental problems in the same way that mercury is. The vast majority of the population have a far greater exposure to mercury via vapour from amalgam fillings but no one has linked this to increased rates of neurodevelopmental problems  Sorry but I just don't believe it  My area of expertise is mental health and I like to think I'm fairly well versed in the environmental and genetic factors that interplay in the development of these illnesses and it is far too complex to be able to lay the blame squarely with any one external factor.

I can absolutely see how this is a concerning issue for pregnant women at the moment and can sympathise with the decision process that everyone has to go through. Maybe I have an advantage from my training in being able to evaluate the evidence to the extent that I am comfortable with it but to me the bottom line is that swine flu is an extermely serious illness for which a preventable vaccine exists so why wouldn't anyone want to protect themselves against it  As before all the above is my own opinion 

Hope this is useful
Best wishes
Maz x


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## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Hi Maz. Thank you so much for your reply. It does help to understand the implications of immunity for my baby (and possibly my toddler too as still breastfeeding her). 

It's a very interesting area and I agree there are no simple answers. You hear many theories about things like amalgam fillings and Alzheimer's etc. but as yet nobody has provided proof of links of things like this and it does seem that there are as many studies that show one theory and just as many that show the opposite if you go looking.

On balance though and with all the helpful info you have kindly provided, I've decided that I don't want to risk harm to my unborn baby or chance leaving my little girl without a mum if I were to catch it, so as soon as my GPs have the vaccine in and start giving it I will have it. As yet though they don't know when they're getting it in.   So I will have to wait. I feel very impatient now as I don't want to get swine flu and we tend to socialise a lot. 

Thanks again Maz. 

Rosie. xxx


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