# Lining not thick enough



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi everyone

Went for a scan today at the clinic to check my lining was getting thick enough for transfer.  Was supposed to be having transfer next week.

Lining was only 6mm so they have given me hrt patches on top of my hrt pills and put back transfer to the following week.

Has anyone else had experience of this?

Feeling a bit gutted that transfer is not happening next week (although know that my lining needs to be thicker).

Angie Pangie


----------



## Cloudy (Jan 26, 2012)

Hugs honey, it's a hard enough journey without feeling that its going "off course"  

My last FET transfer was put back about 5 days, but I can't remember my lining thickness and I didn't have any increase in drugs. Try and remind yourself that it's really common and It's positive that they are taking some action - you aren't that far off so have responded to the tablets, which is also a good thing.

Have they booked you for another lining scan before planned ET?

Xxx

Edited to try and make my sentences make some sense!


----------



## mierran (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi,

it is not an uncommon problem

things that have been tried include

selenium ( the active bit in brazil nuts )
Hot water bottle
gentle exercise
spirulina ( my advice don't buy the expensive organic one. It tastes gross. The cheaper ones are less disgustingn in my experience)
Acupuncture

Tho your best bet may be to ask if you can cancel this cycle and do a natural , or triggered natural one. Some women don't respond to artificial oestrogen and I certainly had a better lining on my natural v medicated cycle. I also got no implantation either time on medicated cycles but a bfp on my triggered natural .
I was scanned till big follicle - has to be over 17mm - mine was about 25mm. Then trigger shot taken at time that suits clinic. Ovulation will be 40 hours later. Start progesterone for luteal support. I'm on crinone as there is no need to lie down for 30 mins after use as there is with eg cyclogest. And with 3 1/2 year old twins that isn't going to happen. Progesterone is needed as trigger doesn't produce as good a corpus luteum so less progesterone produced. Transfer 2, 3 or 5 days after that depending on age of embryo.

you obviously produced a good lining in your fresh cycle so it is something to consider. My clinic initially weren't keen. They don't normally do them.  But by the time of my baseline scan cd4 I already had 2 follicles one 7mm one 9mm and an endometrium of 6.2mm . I didn't down regulate as I respond badly to the injection. I was supposed to be scanned day 2 or 3 but as that was over the weekend it was the monday before I could get an appointment. As my clinic is abroad I had to contact them and wait for response then wait for blood results. At first I felt awful. I thought they may cancel. I had already booked flights, accommodation,  time off work etc as we were going for 2 weeks. Then I decided to turn it around. Maybe the universe was trying to tell me something. So even tho the clinic said as my oestrodiol was only 201 I could go ahead with medicated I talked them into letting me try natural. The rest, as they say, is history. I am only 6 weeks so early days but fingers xd.  

my gynaecologist who i saw re my endo says it is entirely possible that artificial oestrogen may not in me allow the uterine lining to present the correct factors to allow implantation. 

Anyway, that's my story. Just something to consider


----------



## smileandbehappy (Jun 1, 2011)

I always had lining issues and tried everything to thicken it. For both my successful FETs I stayed on 4x oestrogen tablets for almost 5 weeks before transfer. On my first successful FET my lining was only 6.4mm a week before transfer. This time it got up to 8mm, but I didn't do anything differently. Both cycles were positive. I hope they go ahead with your transfer xxx


----------



## Tincancat (Mar 19, 2012)

Hi Angle
I was on 4 x 2mg oestradiol tablets taken orally plus 2 used vaginally ( one morning & one at night)  together with a oestrogen 100 patch.  Apparently when you use the oral tablets vaginally you get a better dose to the uterus to help the lining.  I managed to get 8.8mm in the end where as natural cycle was only 6.5mm.
Good luck 
TCC x


----------



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Thanks so much for your replies ladies!

Cloudy - it's reassuring that it's a common thing.  I've got another scan booked next week.  Yeah I'm trusting my clinic knows what's best.  They said they wouldn't go ahead with the transfer if they felt my lining wasn't good enough.  

Mierran - I'm having acupuncture which I also did for my fresh cycle and I think that really helps.  Will try using a hot water bottle though!  Never heard of spirulina - what's that?  As for cancelling the cycle - that freaks me out!  My clinic have said they would cancel it if my lining isn't good and I've only got 2 embryos so they and I wouldn't want to waste them!  I'll see what happens at my next scan.  It's interesting that you say you have endo as I have that too.  I wonder if that has a big influence on it?!  On my fresh cycle my lining was still only 7.2mm.

Smileandbehappy - I'm glad to hear you were kept going for 5 weeks and still were successful - that's great!  I really appreciate your post - it has stopped me worrying some what!

Tincancat - My clinic has never mentioned using the tablets vaginally!  I'm on 5 a day plus now I'm on the patches.  Hopefully that'll have an effect!!!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## lara lara (Jun 17, 2014)

Has anyone had a bad lining even taking Depot shots before making a medicated FET?


----------



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Thought I'd return to this thread to update where I'm at...

I had another scan the following week and my lining had got to 7.5mm.  Apparently my lining for fresh cycles had never really got much thicker than that (the thickest was 8.2mm) so the clinic thought it would be fine to go ahead with the transfer the following week.  Both embryos survived the thaw, both were transferred and two weeks later I got a BFP.  Just had an early scan today and found out it's twins!  

Just thought it would be useful for any of you ladies who are having lining issues that there can be a positive outcome!  

xxxxxx


----------



## Jam&amp;Cream (Jan 27, 2013)

*Angie*, massive congratulations    You must be so excited. Wishing you all the luck in the world. Xx


----------



## Tincancat (Mar 19, 2012)

So pleased for you Angie sounds like using patches and tablets together did the trick for you 
TCC x


----------



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Thanks Jam and tincancat! xxxx


----------



## MyreiE (May 5, 2014)

Yayyyy angie  .. I had wondered how you made out...this is TERRIFIC news!!!

From one twin mommy to another..hope you have an awesome pregnancy!

-M


----------



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Thanks Myreie! xxxxxxx


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Angie 
Thank you so much for updating this. 
I'm Currently going out of my mind with lining issues. 
First my natural FET got cancelled as I only made 6.5. 
Then my medicated FET was progressing nicely at 6.2 then I had a scan
AND it dropped to 4.5!!!
I'm currently taking 8mg progynova for last 4 days and scan today is 5.8. 
Have another scan in 3 days and added 2 patches every 2 days in now. 
I'm terrified that they will cancel. And after natural cancelled 3 contact months of this feels unbearable. 
All my hopes are pinned on my next scan and these patches working some kind of miracle !! 
It's reassuring to read your story. 
Congratulations. X


----------



## angie pangie (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Mrsball

So sorry to hear you're having trouble with your lining.  It's like it's an extra hurdle that you've not even thought of until you get in that position!  It never crossed my mind until my scan when they said my lining wasn't good enough and put my transfer back a week and it felt like that BFP was put further out of reach.  I totally understand why it feels unbearable for you.  I too was terrified that it would be cancelled but then when it went ahead I felt so scared that I'd put my embryos at risk with a thin lining.  My stomach was in knots during the 2ww.

Do you know what your lining was with your fresh cycle?  My fresh cycles weren't much thicker so the clinic felt it ok to go ahead with what I had.  I was on 10mg of progynova and 2 patches twice a week.  The extra week and patches increased my lining a bit.  I had been on progynova for 14 days when I had my first scan, then was scanned again a week later carrying on with progynova + patches and then had the transfer the following week (26 days of progynova by then).

The way I looked at it was that my clinic were not going to risk putting my embryos back if they thought it wasn't going to work so when they said to go ahead I had to take that leap of faith.

Looking at the date you posted you must have had the scan by now - how did you get on?  xxxxx


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Hi Angie
Sorry it's taken me so long to reply. I have only just read this thread again and seen your response. 
As you can probably see from my signature. It a went wrong! 
My lining went up a bit them dropped right back to the 4s again. So that one got abandoned too. 
I was referred back to my local hospital for hysteroscopy and biopsy which I had done a couple of weeks ago. 
The hysteroscopy was fine other than a tiny adhesion which they removed. 
And I'm on my way to my follow up appt right now to find out the results of the biopsy! Nervous! Wish me luck!

Then I have appt back at fertility clinic on Monday to discuss what happens next. 

If the biopsy offers no answers I don't know where we go from here! 

It's interesting what you say about some women not responding well to fake eostrogen. As I'm sure on my natural cycle I had the "triple stripe" lining although not thick. 
And on medicated the triple stripe was not there. So clearly my lining was better quality on natural. Even if not as thick as it should be. 

On my first IVF "fresh" cycle I got to 7.2mm although my clinic did not scan me again between collection and transfer. So not sure what happened during those 5 days! That's something they do now though apparently - assess lining on transfer day. 
X


----------



## mierran (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi,

you can do a medicated cycle where you use a low dose of stims such as gonal f to thicken lining. It is very similar to an iui cycle.

you trigger once a follicle over 17mm and lining thick enough and ovulate 40 hours after trigger. Transfer is timed accordingly

I appear to be one of the women for whom artificial oestrogen doesn't work. My lining thickens but embryos don't implant. For me , a triggered natural cycle worked.

good luck to you all

x x


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Hi Mierran
Im now on my 3rd attempt at Fet 
Medicated again but with aspirin and the patches not tablets as they are meant to be higher higher dose
And they said the tablets can be broken down by stomach?
Anyway I don't feel hopeful
My hysteroscopy and biopsy were clear so no answers 
Consultant said some women just don't respond well to fake estrogen and I may be one of them
If that's the case all they can do for me is move on to fresh cycle?! 
But I don't agree 
As you said I know you can have a "triggered" natural Fet which they have not offered me 
And I've read a lot about tamoxifen being used to treat thin lining which they have also dismissed 
Im starting to feel like the NHS just won't be right for me as I'm clearly a complex case and they don't want to sway from their 'standard' approach 
😔
XxxxxX


----------



## MyreiE (May 5, 2014)

Hi Ms. ball..

I drank red raspberry leaf tea leading up to the FET last year and hadn't on the  ICSI a couple months previous to the FET. With the medicated ICSI lining got to 10 mm ..with the FET it got to 12 mm.

No idea if the tea had any effect at all, but it was the only thing I did differently. 

-M


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Thanks myreiE
I have tried that on both my failed attempts but I'm still drinking it just in case 
And Brazil nuts for the selenium
And pumpkin seeds
All things that have been recommended to me! 
I'm just starting to think I'm not capable of carrying :-( 
X


----------



## Dudders (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh Mrsball  

I know only too well the frustration that thin lining brings.  I'm definitely an advocate of tamoxifen - after a long journey, it's the reason my son is 3 weeks old today!

I'll look for the links to the studies that originally prompted me to try it in the first place - perhaps print them out and ask for a consultant to review them.  The consultant I was seeing at the Lister dismissed it too, but I was fortunate enough my original consultant supported me in at least trying, even though he wasn't convinced!

I'll also find the link to a thread where a number of ladies discussed thin lining issues, and some achieved thicker linings in response to tamoxifen too xx


----------



## Dudders (Jun 18, 2012)

My response to tamoxifen - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=319793.0

Thin lining thread - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=321339.0

Study 1 - http://omicsgroup.org/journals/successful-pregnancy-in-recurrent-thin-endometrium-with-new-uses-for-an-old-drug-jfiv.1000110.pdf

Study 2 - http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1472-6483/PIIS147264831060288X.pdf


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Thanks dudders
I did read this before and mentioned tamoxifen to the consultant but they were very dismissive...
DH said that if this round fails and all they want to do is move on to a fresh cycle then we will use frozen embryos privately if we have any more....
But I read somewhere that having private treatment can mean you forefeit your NHS treatment? 
But I can't actually find anything factual online that confirms this? 
Anyone know? 
X


----------



## Kim01 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi MrsBall
I too have challenging lining. Last year I had 2 FET cycles cancelled consecutively. My lining reached to about 7.0mm and then regressed despite the fact that I was on the maximum progynova 12mg a day and 2 patches every other day. On the 3rd month after cancellation I was on the same dose of progynova and patches.  Tamoxifen 20mg twice a day was added. This got my lining to 7.6mm. Then 5 day before ET - I had Gcsf Wash. Lining was 8.1mm on day of ET. I got the bfp.
I'm about to start my medicated FET tomorrow.  With this cycle I just had an endoscratch. My drug protocol are:12mg progynova a day (4mg morning, noon and night. Each time I take 2mg orally and 2mg vaginally), one oestrogen patch every other day. 20mg tamoxifen twice a day. I still need to have the Gcsf wash again.

I saw Melanie Brown specialises in Ivf and nutrition a month ago. She advised me to take the following for lining and implantation:
Solgar L-argine - for lining. One capsule morning and evening. Stop before ET.
Beetroot juice - one drink every day. Stop before ET.  I take the concentrated Beetroot shot (70mls). You can buy it from ebay or amazon.
Solgar Cartinine complex - for implantation. One tablet morning and night. After ET reduce to one tablet a day. Continue until OTD.
Brazil nuts -rich in selenium for lining.

Mel also recommends me to take D-Mannose (a natural sugar) prevents urine infection. Because I had urine infection last year that caused me to MC my LO.
I hope this helps. I'm having repeat lining scan again in 10 days time.  I shall let you know how I got on.


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Thanks everyone
I'm really going to push tamoxifen again I think
I assume it's too late now as I am 2 days into the estrogen stage?
Can any of you ladies that have used tamoxifen remember at what point in the cycle it was used and how long for? 
The studies seem to suggest 5 days but I don't think (?) they say "when" you start/stop it?
Thanks x


----------



## Dudders (Jun 18, 2012)

I took 40mg once a day, cd3 to cd7 x


----------



## Kim01 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi mrsBall - in my last cycle I started on cd3 to cd13 ( 10days). I stopped 6 days before ET. I was told stopping Tamoxifen 5 to 7 days before ET to avoid toxicity to the embryos. My current cycle I start taking it today (cd3). Can you go to a private Dr Specialise in ivf to get a private prescription?


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Thanks everyone
This is what I was wondering 
But I'm probably too late in this cycle now 
I started buserelin on day 2 which was 9th Jan 
And started the patches Tuesday 27th so I'm almost 3 weeks in to this cycle now 
Just got to ride this one out now I think and see what happens


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Still 7mm 😔
I just don't ever get above the 7s 😔
But they want to scan me again Monday so Just waiting to see nurse and they are increasing my patches from 200 to 300
I dont expect it to be much different though 
Deep down after 4 cycles I know that my body just does not and will not go above the 7s without a different approach 
It sounds like the are planning to still do transfer anyway but I'm not hopeful for the outcome when I know chances of implantation are best between 9-13mm

So I'm kind of accepting the that whether transfer happens or not this isn't the one 😔

Quick question to the tamoxifen ladies! Did you only use it on a Fet or fresh cycle too?

Just wondering if it's something I can look into for my next fresh cycle too? And if it all works and is taken in the same way as Fet? 

Xxxx


----------



## K.Notman (Sep 25, 2014)

Hi guys, I've just found this thread and thought I'd comment as this is something that affected me.  

I'm reliant on egg donor though so my tx is all about getting ready for the ET.  My preparations scans all showed thin linings of 4-5mm so I did some reading and started L'Argenine tablets along with the folic acid and pregnacare.  I was given 12mg tablets taken orally daily.  

I also reduced my normal intensive exercise to be every other day and more gentle and I incorporated more yoga.  I did hot water bottle routines every evening for a month with a tummy massage. I also started acupuncture once a week for 3 months with 3 appointments in the week prior to ET.  It made a massive difference and I got to 7.8mm on day of transfer.

Unfortunately my BFN was put down to the egg quality and I'm on the waiting list to try again.  I'm currently on basic HRT in the mean time and when I'm closer to a date I'll start the preparations again.

Good luck everyone.  It is a miracle and there are so many affecting factors.  We just have to do our best and as hard as it is, stay calm accepting 'what will be, will be'.

Kirstie


----------



## Kim01 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi Mrs Ball
Sorry to hear lining is slow to thicken up. 
About Tamoxifen - I  only ever use it for FET.  From my understanding - to reduce toxicity to the embryos I need to stop the drugs 5 to 7 days before ET.  
If you are doing OE  fresh transfer.  The time frame from EC and ET transfer is very short. In view of this there isn't long enough time to start and finish the drugs since you need the 5 to 7 days free from Tamoxifen before ET.
I'm having a repeat lining scan this coming up Monday to check how I respond after I started my FET drug protocol.  To increase absorption of my progynova tablets my clinic instructed me to take half progynova by mouth and half via vagina.  I shall see on Monday if it works.


----------



## Kim01 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hello Ladies

I did promise to update on how I got on with my Tamoxifen and lining for FET.  My repeat lining scan today: 9.0mm.  I'm a happy bunny. Take care ladies.


----------



## Mrsball (May 10, 2013)

Congrats on the lining Kim
Wish I could say the same but I only measured 7.2 today
I'm fed up with it all now so I'm just pressing on with transfer and trying to accept what will be will be and save my energy for another cycle in the future 

I really need to learn more about this tamoxifen as it sounds like the answer to my prayers!
So far I understand that most people start it on either day two or three 
With between 20-40mg dose and for 5-7 days 

But what I don't understand still is whether you still take it with the other drugs ie buserelin? Or whether it's only that drug and the rest of the FET natural? 
X


----------



## Dudders (Jun 18, 2012)

Congrats Kim - really feels like winning half the battle when you hear numbers you don't usually!  I'd never heard anything about toxicity of tamoxifen to embryos though.  That's an interesting concept as it's routinely used as an ovulation induction drug second to Clomid.  Would be interesting to know more about that.

Mrsball, don't feel pressurised to go ahead if you're not happy with your lining.  My 2013 pregnancy my lining was 7.6mm at 5dpec from memory and the clinic consider 7mm ok to go ahead with.  As long as you're happy that's what's important though.  I took 40mg from days 3-7 with the effect kicking in after withdrawal of the drug.  Scans showed as follows CD7 - 4.5mm, CD10 - 6.3mm (best I'd achieved naturally beforehand) and CD14 - 7.5mm at which point I triggered.  We didn't get to transfer as none of our embryos survived.  I fell pregnant naturally the following cycle using the tamoxifen again for my lining - I didn't have scans so don't know my lining measurement but assume as I didn't ovulate until CD23 it was even better than the cycle I'd had scans on.  So both times it just piggybacked my natural cycle.  I don't know quite how it would work but seems no reason you couldn't make it work on a fresh cycle - one of the studies I linked for you used tamoxifen and injectibles.


----------



## K.Notman (Sep 25, 2014)

A question for you ladies who have used Tamoxifen.... Did you get this on the NHS or only available privately?
Kirstie


----------



## Kim01 (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi ladies,
Just want to let you ladies know that my final lining measured at 11.5mm today. This is the result of 15days on oestrogen and Tamoxifen therapy. I'm pleased with the way my body responds to this drug.
K.Notman - you can get it from both. As long your clinic is willing to prescribe it. I got a private prescription from my clinic.


----------



## Dudders (Jun 18, 2012)

Great news Kim!   

Kirstie - tamoxifen is a cheap drug so if you can find a consultant to support you then you could probably get it on the NHS.  My tx was all private and consultant agreed to px based on my research.


----------



## K.Notman (Sep 25, 2014)

Thank you for your replies ladies.  I'll ask about this on my next cycle then.

Good luck and Congrats Kim T for you fantastic lining measurement!
Kirstie


----------

