# Because Miracles DO Happen



## Barren Betty (Jul 11, 2010)

I have just joined this forum, a couple of weeks after my second round of ICSI resulting to an early m/c... which is my third, if not fourth. Is there anyone out there with a similar starting story, but with a happy ending? After three years of TTC, I am starting to lose faith, so I would need some rays of hope to keep me going... Thank you.


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## LittleMissM (Jul 23, 2010)

No success story for me just yet, but wanted to drop you a line to say I am sorry for your loss  .
Keep positive and keep trying if you can and you will get there and it will be ever so more special   

Sue


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## fairywings (Feb 19, 2009)

and welcome to Fertility Friends Betty 

I am so sorry to hear of your miscarriages  . It's such a cruel and painful thing to have to go through. Be gentle with yourself. I am not sure if my story will give you any hope for the future, but I lost a little boy at 17.5 weeks three years ago. Since then I went on to do three cycles of IVF, the third one of which worked and I am now 33 weeks. I never thought I was going to be able to carry a baby again. There are lots of ladies on FF who will have stories of happy endings. I will leave you some links to boards you may find helpful.

Please have a good look around the boards, feel free to post in any area, and make yourself at home. Fertility Friends is such a huge support. There are many who are on their TTC journey, and others who have been fortunate to have little ones with assistance. You will soon discover that our members are very encouraging of one another and offering advice or just simple hugs. There's a vast amount of information here for everyone, so start reading, posting and getting to know others. You will make some great friends too (add them to your buddy list in your profile!), lots of members often have meet ups locally too, for chats, coffee, shopping or even nights out! You can share conversations with one another freely, simply because we all understand each other. It's hard when family and friends don't fully comprehend what this journey entails and the emotions that go with it. That's where we come in!

Here are some links which you should find really useful at the moment&#8230;&#8230;

*ICSI ~ *CLICK HERE

*Post Negative Cycle Support ~ *CLICK HERE

*Pregnancy loss ~ *CLICK HERE

*Pregnant after loss ~ *CLICK HERE



You can also chat live in our excellent chat room. We have a newbie day in the chat room every Wednesday where you can meet one of our mods for support, meet other new members and get technical support with navigating the site and using all the functions available here.  CLICK HERE FOR INFO ON NEWBIE CHAT 

You can also "meet" and chat with people in your local area through the *Location boards*. This is especially useful to find people who may be using the same clinic and or in the same PCT area. It's a small world!

Wishing you lots of luck    and 

Keep in touch

Fairywings xx


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## Barren Betty (Jul 11, 2010)

Thank you both Sue and Fairywings, I much appreciate your support and the kind messages.

I am not ready to give up just yet, BUT, before I can try another round I need to know more. I am therefore trying to book an appointment to see a recurrent m/c specialist to find out if I have implantation / immunity / blood clotting etc. problems. Any recommendations?


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## fairywings (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi there!

I don't have any recommendations hun, but there is a board for immunolgy, etc, if that is of any use to you. Whereabouts are you based? It might be a good idea to look at the location board and ask a fellow FF'er in your area for info. 

*Investigations & Immunology ~ *http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=52.0CLICK HERE

All the best!
fairywings xx


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## fairywings (Feb 19, 2009)

Sorry that link above seemed to go wrong! Let's try again! 

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=52.0

xx


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## valentina (Jul 23, 2010)

Hi Betty

I've read a lot about immune treatment because I was at Care Nottingham at one point, and George Ndukwe there is an expert. Lots of ladies says he's helped them but I'm not entirely convinced the whole thing isn't just a numbers game. Hearing their stories, it's rare to hear of someone who's responded well to drugs, made lots of eggs and high quality embies and not got pregnant quite quickly. I'm a scientist myself (not medical, but related) and I've read lots of studies and papers since I've been on this journey and I really think it boils down to egg reserve and egg quality, which are related. Ladies will shout me down for this, but immune treatment is very expensive, completely unproven and there's no evidence at all that it improves your chances of success. That doesn't mean that it doesn't but I just think we all get to a point where we'll try anything if we're told it might help and often those 'anythings' involve spending big lumps of cash. I'm not at all convinced that the money spent on immune treatment, which practically doubles the cost of each cycle, wouldn't be better spent on more cycles of treatment. At the end of the day it's a game of chance. If you try enough times, you'll get a quality egg that will go on to a viable pregnancy.

Have any of your doctors mentioned egg quality or egg reserve to you? I wonder if IVF is even the best treatment for you. A friend of mine had several miscarriages and when she sought treatment, the clinic she went to told her she had low egg reserve and that IVF was unlikely to work for her. Her hubby's sperm was fine (which sounds like yours is too) and so she was advised to try IUI with clomid to improve her egg quality. It worked, and she now has a beautiful baby girl. I doubt if you do have an egg reserve issue it is as bad as my friend's, as she was told IVF wasn't an option at all, but it might be that something small in your protocol might make a difference. I've always had reasonable eggs and embies but this cycle they were tons better. I was prescribed a steroid called dexamethadone to improve them and it seemed to work, although I changed my diet and ate loads of fruit and veg and kept my protein levels up, and kept away from friends/family who smoked around me (not easy when one of them is my mum!) Small changes like these might make all the difference for you.

The fact that you can get pregnant naturally is a big deal and something you should feel very positive about. You can try naturally every month between treatment and that's a huge advantage. Immune treatment seems to be the trendy place to send people in your position but the science doesn't support it. I think the clinics are a bit cheeky charging for such experimental treatments. Whether they work or not is a point for argument, and something you'll have to make your own mind up about but, personally, I'd try to get the opinion of an independent expert if you can. 

Also, I can't honestly recommend George Ndukwe. Again, I may be shot down in flames by Care ladies who've had pregnancies with him because he's a very loved man. Don't get me wrong, I actually think he's a lovely man and a good doctor who really wants to help ladies in our position. The problem is the clinic, which I think has some major problems in terms of patient care. Others have had different experiences and will disagree with me but I think the way some individuals have been let down by the clinic, myself included, is rather damning.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. Sending a big splash of     for a   that sticks around for you soon.

V xx


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## Barren Betty (Jul 11, 2010)

Thank you for the further links Fairywings!

Valentina, many thanks for your thoughts on the immunology issues, I much appreciate the alternative and candid views. I have heard reservations before, not least from the doctor who treated me for the previous ICSI cycles, but I will probably still carry out at least some additional tests to see what the experts in this area find in me, if anything.

Having said that; I defnitely have some serious egg reserve and quality problems, and therefore I was very interested to read about the IUI with clomid and dexamethadone treatments, and I would love to hear more about them. I have not heard about 'clomid' before, so sorry about my ignorance - and it would also be interesting to hear how you found being on steroids, was it a lot tougher than being just on the usual stimulation hormones?

Many thanks again to all who replied. I have one done one or to posts here and yet gained a lot already from you all.

BB


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## valentina (Jul 23, 2010)

Hi BB

I had no problems with the steroids at all. If anything, I was healthier than normal, as they stopped my reactions to pollens and so on and my asthma/skin rashes. I did get an implantation, but it looks like it's going away sadly. Still, this is the closest I've come to getting pregnant for a very long time, so I am encouraged.

More info on clomid here. http://www.womens-health.co.uk/clomid.asp

Good luck honey. I really hope it comes right for you.

Nikki xx

/links


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## Barren Betty (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Nikki,

Many thanks for your reply. 

I am so very sorry to hear about your m/c, my heart goes out for you.

I went to my clinic first time yesterday since my last m/c to pick up a copy of my file and it took me by surprise that I had quite an emotional reaction coming out of the clinic, going past the hospital etc... it was like driving in the landscape of our broken dreams.

But I am pulling myself together once again, and the fact that I will be seeing Dr Raj Rai (aka 'Mr Miscarriage'), who I have heard many good things about, next week helps. I just need to know more about why this keeps happening to, us as I feel like I cannot simply go through another ICSI without doing something differently this time.

So, I will let you know how that goes and all that. Your story about the steroids and your friend's good luck with clomid+IUI has given me new ideas and hope though, so many thanks for sharing again.

Wishing you all the best luck
BB


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## Dorris (Aug 7, 2010)

Hi BB,

Ive just been reading through your posts and just really wanted to say sorry to hear of your mc and all the very best of luck with whatever you choose to do next. Im not really as experienced as the other girls who have responded so cant really comment on immunity issues etc, I dont really understand anything about that at all; though Im sure Ill find out of I get to that stage.

Ive had one cycle of IUI which was BFN and Im in the middle of IVF, my first cycle. Having day 8 scan on Monday to see how Im getting on. 

Ive had all of my egg reserve tests done etc and am interested in your situation cos we're about the same age, as are our partners and we have been trying for the same amount of time. Have you had the AMH test done? Was it very low?



George


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## Barren Betty (Jul 11, 2010)

I have been meaning to do this for a very long time; to write and share with you our story, as I feel that I owe it to this community for the support, comfort and consolation that I got from reading the various postings during which now seem the deepest and darkest three years of our lives.

My husband and I started to try for a baby in September 2007, after having been married for a year and a bit. I was 35 at the time and he was 39. Aware of the fact that we were no spring chickens anymore in the sense of long-lost peaked fertility, we thought that we better get on with it…

Six months later, as nothing had happened, I booked an appointment to see a fertility specialist to check that everything was ok.  She was an NHS doctor at St Guy & Thomas, a lovely lady and willing to help us. She carried out a hysterosonography, took blood for the hormone levels , and my husband gave, what turned out to be the first of many sperm samples, provided with the aid of a rather random selection of tatty old porn mags and flicks… The results gave my husband’s swimmers a golden star, confirmed that my tubes were open – but concluded that (with antral follicle count of 6 and elevated FSH of 10. I had an older woman’s ovaries which was the probable cause for the troubles. 

I got pregnant the same month, May 2008, for the very first time, so I thought brilliant - maybe all that had been needed was that flush of my tubes. We were both so excited, although we tried to remain calm. This turned out to be wise, as sadly I had my first miscarriage only on day 36. Nevertheless, I remained positive, as clearly I could get pregnant and I had read that I was extremely common for the first pregnancy to fail without any indication of further fertility problems.

We moved to Central Europe thereafter and I got naturally pregnant again in November 2008. This happiness was however short-lived, as I had my second miscarriage at 32 days. This time I was more broken and it took me a long time to recover…

Eventually, I got over the experience, and again, we sought help with the local fertility expert - one that was supposed to be best in the field. She concluded the same about my husband’s sperm and about my old woman’s ovaries and recommended that we should try ICSI, based on the Long Protocol. We were due to start our first treatment cycle in September 2009, but I had in fact gotten yet again naturally pregnant while on holiday. I suffered the third early miscarriage at day 33.

We ended up trying ICSI twice, first time in October 2009 (I was on Decapeptyl and on a high dose of Menopur (300U)), resulting to only eight developed follicles (some more advanced than others), out of which six were retrieved successfully. After ICSI, four of the inseminated eggs had developed into embryos, although one of them was not of a very good quality. Three embryos were transferred on the third day after retrieval. One of them had four cells and two of them had only two cells, so the development had been slower than normal. I was on Utrogestan 200 post-transfer.

I recall suffering from some shooting pains in my lower abdomen shortly after the transfer, but my doctor did not seem to think that there was any risk of infection or such, and luckily the pains passed shortly. However, I started to experience some period like cramps and spotting only on the fourth day after the embryo transfer and on the fifth day I experienced what I can only describe as a spontaneous abortion, with painful cramps and heavy bleeding that lasted a week.

The doctor confirmed that it was unusual for a patient to start bleeding at this early stage. Her view was though that nothing had gone wrong , but that perhaps the heavy hormone doses had been simply too much for my system, which had caused the reaction. She thought that a shorter protocol might be gentler and more successful with a woman of my age (37 at the time).

At this point, I raised the question of whether there were any more tests that could be carried out to try to figure out what was wrong with me. In particular, I had read articles about killer cells, blood clotting issues etc. and I was wondering if I could be suffering from such things. The doctor responded rather scornfully that it was highly unlikely, that none of those controversial methods were clinically proven – and that they did not use these methods in the country in question in any case.

It took us a long time to recover from this experience and disappointment.  However, the following spring we were ready to try again and I started GnRH Antagonist (Short) Protocol of IVF in May 2010. My ovaries were first harmonised with Cetrotide injections and Estradot 100 patches. From the third day of my next cycle I started a combination of Gonal-f (225U) and Menopur (75U) injections that lasted for ten days, so heavy doses again…
The ultrasound showed six eggs, out of which one was very small. According to the doctor, she was disappointed in this poor response as she had been hoping for more eggs. She was not alone there. Out of the six eggs five were retrieved successfully. After ICSI, three embryos had been produced, two others had not been good quality. The embryo transfer was carried out on the second day from the retrieval. Three embryos were transferred, one with three-cells and two with two cells. One embryo had a minor inclusion. I was on Utrogestan 200 and Estradot 100 patches post-transfer.

I felt fine and pregnant this time. On the 11th day post transfer, I carried out a sneaky digital home pregnancy test which came out with a clear 3-4 weeks pregnant response. However, only one or two days later I panicked slightly as all of the sudden I had stopped feeling pregnant. There were no cramps, pain, spotting or anything – just a weird intuition… On the 14th day post transfer, I had my first official blood test which showed HCG level of only 7.72. It was not good news, and I thought that the level must have dropped as otherwise it would not have shown on the earlier home pregnancy test. My doctor told me that I was not pregnant, but she would not confirm my own view that I was miscarrying yet again... I had a follow-up HCG test five days later which came out completely negative. I started to bleed heavily the following day 36 of the cycle. 

Never in my life have I known, felt or heard of such heartache as what I experienced that time. How could I long so deeply and desperately for someone who had never even existed. It had become unbearable to see women with bumps or buggies, both of which seemed to be everywhere I looked. My husband said that we would try ICSI one more time. I nodded, but knew that it was a lie, as in my heart I felt that I could not go through such disappointed ever again. It has been three years now since we started trying, and I knew that the chances of us ever having a biological child were against all the odds now.

Anyhow, before the final, forth miscarriage had started, I had asked my doctor again whether any further blood tests or ultrasound that could be carried out to learn more about what was/had been going on. She did not think that such tests would be helpful or necessary. I disagreed, and I was lucky to be recommended a doctor in London who was specialised in this field and was known to be nick-named ‘Mr Miscarriage’. I travelled over and after about nine different blood tests I was diagnosed to have strengthened blood clot problem, and I was recommended to take 150mg of aspirin together with Utrogestan, should I ever get pregnant again… He was critical of my straight to ICSI experience as in his view my best chance was to get pregnant naturally and ICSI carried a higher miscarriage risk.

A month passed, another period arrived. I decided to try something out. Something that I did without any medical advice or control - and probably even against my own better judgement – in other words something that you should NOT copy and try at home!!! I decided to use up the leftover medicines from the two rounds of ICSI to boost my old woman’s ovaries, so I injected a small dose of either Gonal-f (112,5U) or Menopur (75U) for over seven days, and then lured my husband to have baby sex with me at the time of the ovulation which was incredibly difficult, given how raw we both still felt after the latest disappointment…

My husband has confessed that he has cried a couple of times thinking of what I did; only I could be so incredibly stupid and irresponsible. I am pausing for a moment here and looking at the results of that stupidity; the sleeping beauty with a mop of sandy-brown wavy hair, perfect little nose above the high cupid’s bow, six pearly-white teeth with slight caps between them – big eyes with the colour of the bluest ocean (although currently closed). She turned one just over a week ago. She learned to walk at ten months, and is now nearly running. She recognises many words already and in our eyes she is obviously a genius in making.

It has not all been easy; when we first saw the yet another big fat positive, our hearts sank as we thought well, here we go again, another heartbreak to follow. I was very nervous throughout the pregnancy and after her birth have struggled with mother’s guilt, too high expectations on myself, fears of loss, extreme tiredness and feelings of unpreparedness, post-natal depression etc. etc. all too common amongst pregnancies following fertility difficulties apparently.

If you have read this far, thank you, and sorry about the medical detail, but if you are like me and have struggled for years, then you are likely to be a half qualified fertility doctor yourself by now after all the reading, and hence may take an interest. 

I have only one more thing to add to our story, and please do not hate me for saying this, but I wish during the three years of feeling inadequate, being tunnel-visioned, depressed and unable to enjoy our lives, I would have appreciated that my life was already full and just as worthwhile as before becoming a mum, and that I would have enjoyed my ability to travel, go to cinema, sleep late on a Sunday more... I know that you may spit and scream in protest to this insensitivity (as I would have done) and say that you would give all that up in a heartbeat, but this is just to say TRY HARDER to enjoy it instead and who knows, another little miracle against all the odds and medical opinions may happen and you might be missing all those things sooner than you think. 

May the force be with you, BB.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2012)

hi barren betty,

thank you so much for sharing your story   

i know how much effort everyone puts into their own research, questions to doctors (and yes i've had those questioning looks back from across the desk) and all that hope into their treatment, and i can only hope that i'll be as lucky at the end as you are.

i'm 31 and about to start after 3 long years our 2nd ivf attempt with icsi. 

your story has given me alot of hope as i've had it all, it seems. 3 years of being prodded, scans, dye scans, blood tests, two lapo ops, removal of a fallopian tube, plus grade 4 endo and one failed ivf attempt....phew! 

my husband also jokes that i probably know more about the procedures than the docs do. like you he always says that as a couple we are the most important and if a baby comes along then that's a bonus. i know he's right but deep down i want it all, but maybe at the end i'll have to accept that we may not get a baby. but at the moment i'm positive and reading stories like your is a massive encouragement.

thank you x


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## littlemiss4467 (May 31, 2012)

Hello Barren Betty!

Your situation also moved me a lot  

I am also having much trouble getting pregnant after 2 long heart aching years of trying!... Turns out that I HAD Polycystic Ovaries and that was probably one of the reasons I was not getting pregnant... after more scans and blood tests...they showed that the PCOS had just completely disappeared! Anway to cut a long story short - my partners swimmers were all fine, I just wasnt ovulating! - now that makes sense. I am now on my 2nd round of 50mg clomid - and blood tests have shown positive ovulation .... but 2 cycles in... still no baby  I am starting to worry that its just going to be another year of heart ache and dissapointment, but fingers crossed!

Reading inspirational stories like your selves is very uplifting and positive. I just want to say thank you for telling us your story and I really hope that a little luck will spread all over us, including you ha31 .


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