# French newbie



## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi

I am a French who is moving to London in October, and I have already found a lot of interesting things thanks to FF!
But of course, TTC  is already complicated in France, so for me it is quite frightening in UK  

So, just to introduce myself: I am 26, DH is 27, married in 2005 and we have been TTC for 2 years. I am PCOS, and I have had a laparoscopy 2 months ago (to remove cyst, and to make a drilling). On his side, the SA is very bad (teratozzospermia with 2% of good ones)...

Finally, we were told last month that we could try IUI, and if it does not work, IVF or ICSI. The first try for IUI is for September, and we won't have the chance to make other ones because we are leaving in October  

So for the moment, we don't know if we would be able to have tx in UK, if we would have to pay for that or not (DH is proposed to join Bupa Excel healthcare scheme, but, according to what I have found, it does not cover IVF...). We even don't know where we are going to live (my husband is going to work in Stevenage, but I am still looking for a job so we planned to move to Stevenage at first, and then move again if I have a job further). As I said, everything is complicated!!

What I know is that from Stevenage, we could go to the Luton Hospital or to UCH. But I guess we would have first to wait for our insurance number, then see a GP? 

Well, I think that's all... Sorry if my english is not very good!!


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## ❁ BG2007 ❁ (Jun 26, 2007)

Bonjour Marine 

And  to FF!

First of all your English was great (much better than my terrible French  )

Wow, you do have a lot going on in your lives at the moment don't you? It must be exciting and a bit scary all at the same time. I've never lived there but Stevenage is a nice place and there's Hitchin nearby which is also nice, I have friends that live there  and it's not too far from the tunnel for visiting family back home 

I can imagine that the prospect of starting treatment over here is quite daunting though, it's bad enough in your home country isn't it? My husband has healthcare through work too and just like you, it does not cover IVF, it's frustrating isn't it? I think the best thing to do, as you said, is to register with a GP once you get here and ask for a referral. The GP will be able to advise you which hospitals you could go to (unless you paid to go privately that is, then it's up to you of course.)

Hopefully you won't even need IVF though and the IUI will mean that there will be three of you moving to the UK in October  

Any way it's great to see you here, just shout if you need a hand with anything here on the site 

Good luck for September, take care

B x


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## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

Hello Marine, welcome to Fertiltiy Friends. 

Your English is excellent! I am not sure of how or what you might qualify treatment wise on the NHS if you move over here - I know that in France (from French people here) that you get 4 cycles IVF/ICSI funded regardless so, in that respect, you get a LOT better deal over there. I don't know if there is any way you can make that work to your advantage? i.e. continue funded treatment there (or transfer the funding here as you are still a French citizen and part of EU) until you have exhusted that option and, if then not pg, you will have been in the UK long enough to have worked out the situation here and know where you are going. I don't know if you have an NHS equivilent there but may well be worth asking.  I will contact a couple of our French members here to see if they can clarify or advise on this further. 
Personally, if you are self funding I would defintely go straight to ICSI with the results you have as this gives the best results with the diagnosis you have. The place to find a clinic in your area is at the HFEA website here:

www.HFEA.gov.uk

Stevenage is in Hertfordshire so, perhaps if you pop pver to the appropriate location boards, some of the ladies there will be able to suggest possible clinics for you. The Herts boards are here:

*Hertfordshire ~ * LCICK HERE

You might also find some useful information through these links:

*What Every New Member Needs To Know (includes a list of common abbreviations) ~ *   CLICK HERE

*Male factors ~ *CLICK HERE

*A Rough Guide To IVF ~*   CLICK HERE

*ICSI ~ *CLICK HERE

And don't forget to have a bit of fun while you are on FF and check out the general chit chat / jokes / hobbies area:

*Girl & Boy talk - Community & Fun Board ~ *CLICK HERE

You can also chat live in our excellent chat room. We have a newbie night in the chat room every week (*Wednesday at 8pm*), where you can meet other new members and get technical support with navigating the site and using all the functions available here.  CLICK HERE FOR INFO ON NEWBIE CHAT 

Wishing you lots of luck. 

C~x


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## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

Thank you so much for your welcome and for thoses first information 
I will take a look at all the links you provided, I think I have a lot of things to learn!
And if you know some french members, I would be glad to talk to them!!

Thanks again


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Salut Marine et bienvenue!

Can I echo the other comments and say your English is blooming good, I dread to think of the mess I would have made, trying to write all that in French! 

I am in the opposite situation to you in that I am English and I moved to France with my French husband 2 years ago. Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to get free treatment in the UK. As has already been described, you would have to sign up with a GP in the UK and ask for him to refer you to a specialist which, as in France, can take months. Then you have to hope that the health authority in your region is one of those which will fund IVF for someone in your situation. I never got to this stage in the UK so I can't really give much advice on the procedure but I understand that each health authority has different criteria for free treatment. For example, some will only pay if you are over a certain age, others will only pay if you already have children and others will do the exact opposite. It's horrendously complicated!

Private medical insurance doesn't cover infertility treatment as far as I know, although you could probably get some of the blood tests and scans paid for as long as they are described as investigations for PCOS. This is how I got my first tests and my salpingectomy (on m'a enlevE les trompes) done quickly, rather than wait months to do it on the NHS. If you go for treatment in the UK, they will almost certainly ask you to redo at least some of the tests so I would use the insurance route for that, at least the tests should be done relatively quickly. So if the cost is not prohibitive for you, I would strongly suggest that your husband take up the offer to join BUPA.

Now I am going to say something controversial and which is in no way endorsed by fertility friends:

*DON'T mention your PCOS on the BUPA forms as I think that BUPA will not cover you for pre-existing conditions*. Once you have your BUPA cover you can simply go along to the doctor complaining of various PCOS symptoms and they will do the investigations for you. I know that many people will object to this and I understand if you don't feel comfortable with it, so I would suggest that you read the BUPA terms and conditions very carefully and make your decision as to whether you should mention it or not.

The French system on the other hand is much less complicated. Perhaps you have already done this part but I'll say it anyway, just in case! Once it has been decided that you need IVF, your gynaecologist will do the necessary so you can have your entente prealable and your letter from the local CPAM so that all of the medication and exams are covered 100%. Once you receive that documentation, you have your 4 free attempts, and then it's simply a matter of choosing your specialist or hospital and joining the waiting list.

Once you're in the system there are some excellent hospitals and clinics here in the UK, both NHS and private. Some are better than others, but that is the case everywhere I think. I should also point out that here in the UK, it is the private clinics that have the better funding. I think in France the opposite is true as the government invests much more into the public health system.

As for the differences in treatment between France and the UK, I have found that certain investigations are more widely available in the UK than in France (some of them are not even permitted in France yet) and I suspect that infertility treatment is slightly more advanced in the UK than in France but that is just my personal opinion. However, IVF started in the UK so it is logical that treatment in France might be slightly behind the times in some (very few) aspects. And in your situation, it's so clear cut - PCOS and sperm problems and from what I have seen of my own doctor and clinic they are more than well equipped to deal with those issues via hormone treatment and ICSI.

Depending on your DH's job and yours, if you can get the time off when you need it, why not take advantage of the generous French system? Eurostar is quick and easy (if not particularly cheap!) and Stevenage is not a million miles away from the tunnel if you want to take your car. Where in France are you hon? Are you in the Ile de France region? Do you still have family here that you could stay with when you need to come back for treatment? If that is the case, I can give you the details of my doctor in Paris who is one of the pioneers of IVF in France. I don't always agree with everything he says but he is an excellent doctor, very professional, very sympathetic and a great listener (which is rare in his profession!)

Whatever you decide to do, KEEP your carte vitale and some kind of correspondence address in France so that you can still take advantage of the French system if you need to.

I wish you all the very best of luck and please don't hesitate to post again if anything I have said is not clear or if you have any further questions or even if you just want to chat. Also there is a very nice French fertility friend who lives in the London region with her Australian husband. Her username is Future Mummy, would you like me to put her in touch with you, perhaps she can give you advice as to moving to the UK from France?

Hope to hear from you soon!

Nix
xxx


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## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

Hi!

Sorry for my late answer, I need a lot of time to write in English!!  
But it's nice to read you, I guess it hasn't been easy for you neither...

For french people, it is quite uncredible to see that depending on the local health authority, funding can be different... Unfortunately, according to what I have read, we can't leave France with our carte vitale: as long as we don't live here anymore, we don't have the right to keep it... But I also read that some people did it anyway, so I don't know... I think I will go to my CPAM and ask, just in case!
But there would be perhaps another solution, if we joined to the french social security for the expatriates (CFE). In this case, I think that we could have free treatment in france, and we could also been funded for treatment in UK... I still need to confirm this but it would be great (expensive but great  )!

For the insurance.... it is complicated too! If we join the CFE, we would be 70% funded for a scan for example (I don't know exactly, but it must be something like that), while with BUPA it would be 100%? But after, for IVF itself, it would be 100% with CFE, and nothing with BUPA... :-( I think we should calculate the cost for each possibility (even CFE + BUPA) before taking a decision...

In fact today we live in Toulouse, but I have my brother and sister in Paris, and my parents are in la Rochelle (and from Stansted it is very easy to go there!). So there are many possibilities in fact, the only problem is that we are not sure to have time off at the beginning of our jobs, but we will think about that!!

And you, what is the result of your french treatment? Don't you miss UK?

Well, thanks a lot for all your advice. Thanks also for Future Mummy, I will send her a message asap!


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Salut Marine! 

Future Mummy is en vacances right now, so it might be a while before she gets to contact you! 

As far as your carte vitale is concerned, I wouldn't ask your local CPAM anything. They don't need to know that you've left the country, in fact, they'll probably only tell you to give the card back! I would keep the card, get your entente prealable and at least then you keep your options open. You've lived and worked here, therefore you've earned it!

I would keep your bank account in France too for your reimbursements just in case you have to pay any fees in advance. For example, if you DO take this route and have treatment in France some doctors aren't tiers payant so as you know, you have to pay the full amount and then the secu reimburses you, therefore they need French bank details. All of your mail can be redirected so it shouldn't be a problem if you no longer have an address in France.

If you don't feel comfortable with that then perhaps it's better to go for the CFE option. I don't know anything about CFE but if you can still get the free treatment in France then it sounds like a great idea. I suspect that they will have thresholds for reimbursements though, so if you have treatment in the UK you will probably still end up paying the difference between the actual price and the refunded amount but the costs will be reduced significantly.

As for BUPA, are either of you getting a good deal on BUPA cover via your employers? If so I would say take it anyway, at least you can get the PCOS related investigations done quickly and then you can rely on the CFE for anything IVF related.

Wow it IS complicated isn't it? I wish you luck with coming to a decision, it isn't easy!

As for me, well I have had 5 unsuccessful cycles of IVF here in Paris. The first 4 were pretty poor, and we had no embryos to transfer on one occasion so I have been labelled as a poor responder (very few, bad quality eggs) However I got lots more eggs on the last attempt and a chemical pregnancy (a weak positive blood test but then started to bleed  ).

So now I have no free attempts left although I understand that I get another 4 free goes if and when I manage to get pregnant. The drugs would still be free so I was tempted to just keep trying here but eventually decided to come back to London for treatment at the ARGC clinic. They're very expensive but they can do tests that are not widely used or permitted in France. For example it is possible that I have immune issues which prevent the embryo from implanting. The ARGC will test me for that, my doctor here won't. I think it's legal in France, but he obviously doesn't believe in it and prefers to say that my eggs must be faulty so I should probably have donor eggs. Also, if you suffer from multiple miscarriages/IVF failures, there is a procedure called PGS where they check the embryos for chromosomal problems - that's not even legal in France yet. So although I could continue here and at least have my medication paid for, I would rather come to London to be sure that we really have tried absolutely everything before giving up on the chance to ever have my own biological child.

I hope my messages are clear enough, I tend to go on with long complicated sentences so if anything is not clear, please do not hesitate to ask me and I will try to clarify it!

*Moderators * is it ok if Marine posts on the board in French, just to make it easier to ask questions? Or would that cause a problem? Can I just say that I was always put off posting on the french fertility forums because I knew it would take forever to post a coherent message! (And also cos I couldn't understand half of the abbreviations they were using!) I would reply in English so the meaning of the original post would still be clear...

If the moderators disagree with this suggestion, Marine, you can always send me personal messages in French if you like. I can understand it with no problems but, like you with English, it takes me aaaaages to write anything in French!

Take care and have a nice weekend!

xxx


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## Caz (Jul 21, 2002)

Nixf01 said:


> *Moderators * is it ok if Marine posts on the board in French, just to make it easier to ask questions? Or would that cause a problem? Can I just say that I was always put off posting on the french fertility forums because I knew it would take forever to post a coherent message! (And also cos I couldn't understand half of the abbreviations they were using!) I would reply in English so the meaning of the original post would still be clear...


Absolutely no problems with that, so long as, of course, your respect the rules and keep language clean - I do know a few French swear words so no sneaking them in...not that you will....actually Nix, knowing you, I'd be concerned! 

Of course, go ahead if it makes it easier for you. 

I don't know how active the French Location section here is but might be worth having a look there, if only to see who posts there who might also be/live in France and be able to advise. Here's a link: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=349.0

C~x


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## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

Great, this is a good news, thanks 

Alors, tout d'abord j'en profite pour te dire à quel point je te suis reconnaissante Nix pour tes messages, ça fait vraiment du bien de parler à quelqu'un qui connait les 2 systèmes et qui comprend nos problèmes !!

Donc pour commencer, je sais pas trop si l'offre de BUPA est intéressante. Pour nous couvrir tous les 2, ça reviendrait à 130£ par mois, est-ce que ça te semble correct ? si c'est pas mal, je pense que je pourrai de mon côté cotiser en plus à la CFE histoire d'avoir le 100% sur la fiv... 
Il y a d'ailleurs un truc qu'on ne comprend pas sur le site de BUPA, est-ce que tu sais ce qu'est le "In-patient and day-patient treatment" et le "Out-patient treatment" (qu'on a vu ici en fait : http://www.bupa.co.uk/excel/html/scheme.html) ?

Sinon, je me vois difficilement rentrer en France me faire soigner en fait (si jamais je conservais ma carte vitale). Enfin si je ne trouve pas de boulot ça pourrait être une bonne solution, mais si le dernier entretien que j'ai passé marche, ça me semble difficile...

Donc bref, il nous reste 2 mois avant le départ, ça nous laisse le temps de prendre une décision en fonction des évènements !

Voilà, j'aurais bien aimé t'aider comme tu m'aides à ton arrivée en france ! Du coup je vais essayer de surveiller la section française du forum, on sait jamais 

Bises
Marine


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

Salut Marine and you're welcome hon!  

How does the BUPA cover price compare to the CFE?  To be honest 130/month for BUPA cover for both of you sounds a bit expensive, especially if it's in addition to whatever you have to pay for the CFE but then I never paid the full amount because my cover was arranged by my employer and we got a huge discount.  Can anyone else advise?  Caz?

A translation of out-patient care is prise en charge thérapeutique ambulatoire.  It really just means procedures which do not require a hospital bed for a prolonged period of time.  I don't know how you say the opposite in French, but a loose definition of a day patient is one that needs a hospital bed but is released the same day (like la ponction ou le transfert d'embryons) and in patient care is where an overnight stay is required. 

On reflection it seems that the least expensive and complicated option might be to stick with the CFE for the funding of your infertility treatment and either return to France for treatment or have CFE funded treatment in the UK and cover any shortfall yourselves....?  It's difficult to work things out, isn't it, when so many things are unknown, will you be working, where will you be living, how long will you have to wait to see a specialist etc...!  It might be an idea to write a list of all of your options and then compare the pros and cons of each

And I hate to have to tell you this, but whether you decide on treatment in the UK or in France it is almost always a pain in the  trying to fit appointments in around the job due to the unpredictable nature of the whole thing.  Unless you have a very understanding employer that is!  That is not to say that it can't be done, just that it can be difficult sometimes.  There is a lot of debate on these boards as to whether you should tell your employer about infertility treatment or not.  I personally think not, as it is none of their damn business!  If I was trying for a baby naturally I wouldn't tell my boss would I?!  Can you imagine the conversation? "Good morning, I just wanted to let you know that I'm ovulating, so my husband and I will be doing it like rabbits for the next few days and I'll let you know in 2 weeks time if I get a positive pregnancy test!     Many others disagree with me though!  Also, some companies have specific policies to cater for couples undergoing fertility treatment so it depends on the individual circumstances really...  

If it's not too personal a question, what kind of work do you and your DH do? Would it be relatively easy to get time off during the day for appointments?  


xxx


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## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

lol, c'est vrai que la conversation serait marrante.....  
Ceci dit, quand j'ai dû subir ma coelio ici, j'en avais parlé à mon chef pour fixer la date avec lui (pour pas que ça gêne le projet), et c'était quand même rassurant de savoir qu'il me soutenait ! Mais bon, si j'avais pu m'en passer.... En fait on est tous les 2 ingénieurs, donc en france on est libres de nos horaires, du moment que le boulot est fait. En uk, on sait pas trop à quoi s'attendre, mais j'imagine que ça ne devrait pas être trop différent (sachant qu'il y a beaucoup de français dans les équipes !)

Well, I can go on in English 
It is difficult to compare funding between CFE and BUPA. With BUPA, I think that a consultation with a specialist should be 100% funded, while with the CFE we would have only 15 or 16€ funded.... which is ridiculous isn't it?? But you're right, if we can have the ivf free, perhaps it is not necessary to join BUPA and so we would save money... I think I will add a scenario to my calculus


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## Han72 (Feb 15, 2007)

It's good that your boss was so understanding about it.  However, I guess it's a bit different when we're talking about a one-off procedure like that (I had to look it up! Coelioscopy = Laparoscopy in English!).  I don't think I'd ever enter into the details of my IVF cycle with an employer and most of them are less sympathetic when they realise that you need several appointments for blood tests and scans and then a whole day for egg collection etc....

Can I ask what field you work in?  Ingenieur is such a confusing word for me!  I mean my husband is an ingenieur commerciale dans un SSII which means bugger all to me, but in English it's IT recruitment consultant which at least describes his role!  And if I just said ingenieur commerciale that just means salesman doesn't it? Don't worry if you'd rather not give more information, it just would help me understand better!

The problem with BUPA is it looks good at first but when you consider that any IVF related consultations won't be covered then it doesn't seem quite so attractive after all.  Or am I wrong?  Are consultations covered but not the actual procedures?

On the other hand, yes with CFE your IVF treatment would be covered 100%.  But only 100% of what you would pay in a French clinic!  I've never done a comparison but I'm pretty sure that most UK clinics will charge more than what the Secu will pay out. So you still have to pay something...  Can you find out what the Secu's payment thresholds are?  At least then it should be easier to make an informed choice...

It will take more than calculus to figure this one out! Maybe a NASA super computer...?


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## Marine (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, you're right, engineer is not very precise  In fact my husband is an onboard software engineer (for satellites for example), and I am a telecom engineer (not very precise neither in fact ). And today, we both work for a SSII too (it would be funny to be in the same as your husband, but there are a lot of SSII )

For BUPA, I have no idea on what is covered or not... I wanted to send them an email to have more information, but we have only a phone number so it is not very easy !!
And for the CFE, I asked them (last Friday I think) how much IVF would be covered, I am still waiting for an answer... I will see!


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## Happy Mummy (Sep 22, 2006)

Hi girls,
If I had the choice I would choose BUPA. ( it would cover you for everything here , they are good, and you need a private insurance inthis country. Many years ago, I had CFE for a year, I thought they were expensive and notthat good. Maybe better now, but would not cover you as well. Also as an EU resident, you get coverage wheever you are inthe EU , you just need to register with a GP , then go to post office and ask for a health insurance NHS card for travelling. 
It covers you for hospital treatment in France and 50% of GP visits and specialist, but not IVF. 
I had a laparoscopy in France last March and was covered by my card. I had to pay a depassement for specialist , but only 300£.
In England a lap and dye would cost about £ 3000. If it is a medical problem , your private insurance will cover you, as long as you did not have the condition before you joined, but it is to do with fertility they won't cover you. My problem was medical so I was covered, but still wanted my gynecologist in France to do the surgery. 
I have a secu sociale in France like every French nationals, but I don't use my number or account. when you live overseas, you need to create a new account with a new secu soiale number  
then once all is in place, and you have given your bank details, if and when you have medical treatment in France , you just send them your feuille de secu and they will reumburse you. 
But of course it has to be a medical problem. If you need to have your teeth whitened or your crown changed at the dentist, I don't think it would work. 

So with that "  coverage in France" I would advise you on Bupa here. But this is just a personal opinion.

Future Mummy


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