# Channel 4 April 3rd at 9pm



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

This (UK based) documentary was mentioned in another thread.  It looks so interesting and relevant that I thought it needed a proper flag up  

9:00pm, Thursday, 3 April 2014, Channel 4

Meet the decision makers who look after Britain's vulnerable children...

This three-part documentary series looks at what happens to the children who are taken into care and put up for adoption. Last year, there were 15,000 such children, twice as many as there were five years ago. Cameras follow social workers, foster carers, parents and adoptive parents as they face countless tough decisions. Tonight's first episode introduces usto social workers who must decide whether or not to take children from their birth parents and then recommend if they should ever return. We also meet some of the parents who are desperately fighting to keep hold of their kids.


----------



## Belliboo (Dec 23, 2007)

Hi dame Edna thanks for highlighting this series , did you say it started last night & do you know name of programme just so I can try & find it on catch up thanks again x


----------



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Hi Belliboo

It's called 15,000 kids and counting. It's not on until 3rd April. Here's a link 

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/tv-guide/03-04-14/15000-kids-and-counting


----------



## Loopylou29 (Mar 4, 2013)

Was there not something similar last year called damned if they do? That was more focused on social workers and the care system as a whole. It was a real eye opener for many people but they can be very tough to watch. Many stories are very close to home for some adopters and it highlights the very high threshold for removing a child.


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

thanks for the heads up media guru


----------



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

That's me  

I do love a good documentary  . 

Hope you and yours are on good form


----------



## Belliboo (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks Dame Edna xx


----------



## somedaysoon (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks. Will set it to record!


----------



## Caroline S (Nov 21, 2008)

Thanks for posting this, will look out for it.


----------



## rsm (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks for giving us the heads up. I've set it to record and told my parents to watch it as well x


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

quite a good representation of the issues surrounding removal/assessment of children I thought..showed its never easy to get it right. I agreed with all the decisions that were made   sad for the parents..esp the young girl as she might have managed it if she wasnt with the partner   removal of the baby at brith quite poignant for me as this was our DS's exact scenario..interesting seeing it from the sw angle..
what did everyone else think?


kj x


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

I thought it was fair. I don't see how anyone can rationally say the decisions made weren't the right ones. Emily brought a tear to my eye seeing her not contesting the adoption because she knew it was the best thing for her daughter. It's so sad to think someone like her won't break the cycle she's in, I feel even if she did leave Matthew there would be another "Matthew" along shortly afterwards.
It's not unreasonable to say all of them might have been able to keep their children given the time and the right support but I think it would take too much time.


----------



## mollycat (Jan 14, 2007)

totally broke my heart.... felt so sorry for Emily, god her bf was a complete tool!!!!


----------



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

I thought much the same as you, KJ.  Quite a balanced piece which I thought showed the realities for birth parents and the SW's trying to work with them.  I wouldn't like that job   

Felt for the young girl in particular ...... but then there's her vulnerable baby to consider   

It also brought home what supervised contact while in foster care, might have felt like for our children, even as babies   

Looks like it's going to be an interesting series.  

X


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Hard viewing but very thought provoking. Other half commented how interesting it was seeing things from 'the other side'. One scenario was scarily similar to our little pink's and gave me a big lump in my throat. I also have renewed respect for social workers!! Wow, very hard job. I look forward to next week.


----------



## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

Think next weeks will be interesting as there looks like there are older children involved, both our 2 were older hard to place children.

Thought that the show was presented well, and do agree that Emily wad very sad to watch.


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

I see contact visits going on a lot as they hold them in the same building as the adopters Mother and toddler group  and we often share the garden space    very interesting to watch…although I try not to be nosey  


I got to witness one angle of our DS's contact (aged 4 weeks) as he was in the same FC as our DD (his sister) while we were doing intros with her..poor little sausage was bundled up in his seat, bottle of milk tucked in beside him and a different person  came 3x week to take him to contact..where mostly BP's didnt show up so he would parceled back to FC..broke my heart  


DE i agree..when the young girls partner kicked off during the meeting I was just imagining him doing that while holding a small baby


----------



## Loopylou29 (Mar 4, 2013)

It was a very well produced overview.

I might get shot down for this but it did highlight how some birth parents cannot accept why they are in this position. Matthew in particular failed to acknowledge why social services were in his life. I felt sorry for Emily has she knew her relationship was bad but on the flipside she wouldn't leave. However matthew did seem to have a great deal of control over her. I got the impression if she had left him and kept lo he would look for her. I agree with a previous poster that there would be another Matthew.

It also highlighted that it is not as simple as just stopping drink/drugs or having no police visits for a month. It has to be sustained and all areas of a persons life are looked at. It was fantastic to hear that the child is at the centre of the process.

The rest of the series should be interesting.


----------



## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

Loopy, having worked for SS, unfortunately there are a lot of Matthews out there who just cannot accept that it's there behaviour that is wrong, a lot of the families I worked with were the Emily's and Matthews of this world. So very sad all around all around.


----------



## Loopylou29 (Mar 4, 2013)

Miny

In my line of work I've seen far too much.

I just felt the programme showed the sw in a good light instead of the usual press bashing they receive. Will it change the view of the general public, I'm not sure.


----------



## Gwen A (Mar 19, 2014)

SW are human - therefore they will make mistakes and the wrong decisions. But this programme showed how difficult those decisions were. Yes, in each case the bp weren't capable of giving the children the homes they deserve. But no-one could doubt that they loved their children and in the majority of cases wanted to be better parents. No wonder SW are stressed, overworked and in short supply. Not for all the tea in China.


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

I think the thing people outside the world of adoption miss is the massive amount of damage done to children by the birth parents. This can never be publicised rightly due to children's confidentiality. However the fact that it isn't means people don't realise how low the bar is set for being able to keep children.  I have always worked with safeguarding and child protection but nothing prepared me for how awful and horrific the reports about children's lives are. Well I have massive empathy for people who have children removed ultimately an innocent child doesn't deserve to suffer and children are only generally taken at birth when older siblings have already suffered irrevocable and life destroying harm.


----------



## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Totally agree DIY Diva!


----------



## -x-Lolly-x- (Feb 3, 2012)

Well said DD!!!


----------



## katie c (Jun 15, 2009)

watching it now...

PMSL at that Matthew one saying that he knows there are people who can't have children, but why take babies off their 'rightful' parents and give them away to them.

oh yes, because that's why they do it   

the way he reacted to his partner breaking a bowl FFS, imagine him talking to a little girl who broke something like that?


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I have to say Emily looked so frightened of him. He had a vile temper and was a nasty piece of work. I found the couple who had lost their boys totally lacking in emotion. The lady who had been on drugs obviously loved little one but was totally unable to prioritise him!


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

this is a nice/good blogpost about the programme
http://www.lifewithkatie.co.uk/2014/04/15000-and-counting-part-1.html


----------



## MummyElf (Apr 11, 2013)

Tough viewing but very well done I thought. It did upset me, the little boy doing contact with his BM looked a bit like my own son at that age and it really got to me thinking of his 'life' before we met him, and that of our daughter.  Like many on these boards I've seen both sides having worked in family law and I've met a great many Emilys, Matthews and Nicolas. It's very upsetting really to see their lifestyles and you have to wonder what their own childhoods were like because I can't imagine people 'just end up that way'. Can't help but feel sorry for them even though my main priority is always going to be the children involved. Sort of makes you wonder how the rest of their lives will pan out, and for my own babies, I wonder what they will be faced with in 20 odd years time if they decide to meet their BPs. 

These sorts of programmes really get to me but it's compulsive viewing!


----------



## katie c (Jun 15, 2009)

it would have been good if the next two episodes featured the same children, but i guess they may risk giving away pertinent info about the children's whereabouts which wouldn't be safe.

i hope they do some sort of catch up at the end of the series, and the children all got forever families. can't see that little boy having problems being placed!


----------



## weemoofrazz (Sep 6, 2013)

We found this programme very emotional and I have to say I did have a lot of empathy for some of the BPs featured, however it did seem to me that it focused solely on 'babies' who were being taken into care and not older children. 

Considering that the average age of a child adopted in the Scotland is currently 3 years 10 months, in this aspect I thought the program didn't portray a realistic view. Of course you can understand that as a result of child protection and data protection etc that they were always going to be unlikely to be able to show older children in these situations, but a colleague of mine did comment after watching the show that we should have no problem getting a 'baby' when we adopt as there seem to be loads of them and they won't be that 'bad' as they were taken at birth! This was unfortunately her take home message from the program! 

I know we need more people to come forward as adopters but I do sometimes worry that programmes such as this one don't necessarily show it like it is! Having said that there are another 2 episodes to screen that may well go some way to doing this. 

I read in AUK magazine this am that first4adoption have been working with the award winning Wall to Wall productions and that ITV have commissioned a documentary series about adoption.The series is to consist of 4 programmes which will air this month and next on ITV at peak time. I'll need to get a copy of the TV mag to find out when exactly.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Remember this is on tonight!


----------



## somedaysoon (Mar 7, 2013)

Really felt for the siblings in tonight's programme especially the little girl's perception of it all. So glad they found an adoptive placement for them in the end. I also felt for the sw who tried so hard to find a family for them and became so emotionally attached to the case. Not an easy job at all.


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

aw seeing the little toddler going through intros and being placed..so many memories  


so pleased they got the siblings a family in the end..really showed here the problems lie for these children


emotional viewing..


kj x


----------



## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

So glad they found a family for the siblings, watching the SW crossing everyone out because at 7 the little girl was to old, 1st time round we would have been crossed off because the little one was to young. 

I do understand why people want children who are younger I just so wish more people would think about older children, I would not change my 2 for the world, one came at 6 and our 2nd at 5.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Minymoo we said we would take older siblings and social worker said no. So I think in part social workers themselves have a part to play in this.


----------



## Daddyboo (Paul) (Dec 24, 2012)

babas said:


> Minymoo we said we would take older siblings and social worker said no. So I think in part social workers themselves have a part to play in this.


We were asked repeatedly if we were sure of our age range (2-5), even when we were approved there were doubts from the SWs that we would want a 3, 4 or 5 yr old, they wanted to give us any child from 18mths to 2yrs - we were adamant and stood our ground.

In the end our LO was placed at 3yrs, but turned 4yrs within 8 weeks - we wouldn't change her for the world.

I think I would have gone for even older if I was older myself.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Daddyboo we're a little bit younger than you and asked for two aged 0-6 social worker has only allowed 0-2 1/2. We did want one little one but for some reason only known to social workers they felt one little one was all we should have!


----------



## pyjamas (Jun 24, 2011)

So emotional. Sobbed at the end!   that it will be us in the introduction phase soon x


----------



## EverHopefulmum (Sep 23, 2009)

exactly the same as others, originally we asked for 2 aged 0-5, we were questioned about this so many times and held our ground, but SW was adamant we should only have one & it should be as young as possible so ended up with one little boywho was placed at 11months old.


----------



## Dame Edna (May 17, 2007)

Another really interesting episode last night.  So glad the older girl and her little brother found adopters   .  She really didn't need another disappointment, bless her.

That said, we wanted as young as possible - I yearned for a baby   .  I make no apologies for that, I did not enter into adoption for altruistic reasons but rather, we wanted to be Mum and Dad.  I wanted to be in a position where I felt I had done the baby thing and didn't want to feel I missed out on that.  For me that was important.

I know if I had of been placed with an older child I would have still harboured that need to nurture a baby.

X


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Was very interesting again.  I was fairly disappointed to see how little ss disagreed with fc calling themselves mum and dad.  I have massive respect for them and how hard their job is but it would seem very confusing for children.  So glad to see the little boy so settled despite it though. Also great news for the siblings it made me cry when in the trailer for next week she said what if they don't like me heartbreaking they'll adore her I'm sure .


----------



## Poppets Mammy (Mar 7, 2011)

DIY - I was just typing the same thing. I felt so sorry for the FC's and they reminded me of Poppets a little, however I was irritated by how dismissive they were about LO calling then Mammy & Daddy. The SW had clearly tried to address it prior to that point and they just took no notice. Obviously thought they knew better when they obviously don't. Couldn't believe how she referred to herself as Mammy in front of the adopters during their first meeting and then waved her hand and said 'or nana or whatever'   how disrespectful towards everyone involved. Was nice to see the transition in the small amount of intro's aired where LO started off shy and scared and slowly warmed to them then once home was waving off FC quite happily -  
It was emotional viewing, brought back a lot of memories, looking forward to next week. Oh and that little girl, oh bless her being so happy over getting adopted then becoming all scared and vulnerable


----------



## snapdragon (Jun 27, 2011)

On the name thing my lo called his FC's mummy and daddy and what I think people don't realise is how hard this makes it to talk about them after placement. I can't say I wonder what mummy and daddy are doing now as that's me and dh and I can't use x and y because he doesn't recognise those names. Lo has been with us for 14 months and has just turned 3 but if we look at pictures of his FC's even now he still says mummy and daddy despite me using their first names since placement. He has delayed speech so that's probably made it more  difficult.

Tommy reminded me so much of intros with lo. He was a similar age and character. Looking forward to next week.


----------



## Loopylou29 (Mar 4, 2013)

Watching it made me realise how grateful I am to our fc for ensuring lo used her first name. Our lo was just speaking when he was with fc and she had a fairly young bd. I too couldn't believe they used the word mummy in front of the adopters.
I'm sure the sw for tommy will have pushed the use of mummy and daddy but it's been edited out.
I think it's been well produced and fairly balanced. Next week should be interesting.


----------



## Melaniesunflower (Sep 20, 2013)

I had hoped they would show more about adoptive parents and their journey, but next week might prove me wrong. Reading some of the ******* feed comments on the show last night with regards to adoptive parents being too fussy I think this is a side the producers could have highlighted.

But apart from that I again ended up in tears watching this by myself. It's been a bad few weeks for us and I still don't understand why I went back for more this week!


----------



## Loopylou29 (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm not sure about showing more about adopters and their journey. I think the couple last night were extremely brave to allow the filming. We wouldn't have done what they did for a variety of reasons including just how intrusive the process is.
As for people saying adopters are too picky well I certainly don't have to justify myself to anyone. 40 people said we would be good parents for our boys ( we've adopted twice so 4 panels).


----------



## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

Babas - I agree about SW pushing ages down, 1st time round we wanted 5+, and that was fine! as 2nd time adopters we originally thought 4-6, our son was 8 at the time, our SW asked us to drop it to 3-6, by the time we went to panel our son was almost 10 and panel asked us to drop it to 2. We did but were more interested in children in our original age range and as I said our daughter was 5 at placement.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

I have to say that I had comments at work about picky adopters and poor kids yet none of them would adopt. It's easy for people who haven't adopted to criticise our decisions but in our shoes most would be the same!


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

I know it totally riles me. Being fertile doesn't mean you can't adopt go for it. In fact I think having bio kids already makes a great placement for older / harder to place kids. They get the company of older siblings and their parents have done the baby thing and had that experience so won't feel any loss for it. We wanted our youngest under two but weren't too bothered about the age of the oldest sibling.  Wanting to change nappies and push a buggy doesn't make me a bad person.  Also people need to look at themselves because when it's their wider family they aren't as loving.  People have often said to us we should look as young as possible. When we've said we want siblings so that won't be our search criteria as the older sibling will be older. Then people have suggested twins to us stating they - not us, might struggle to bond with an older child coming into their family. These people have been educated however they'll be the same people saying adopters who they don't know should be less fussy.  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!  People don't see what a bunch of hypocrites they are.


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Exactly DIY Diva! We aren't infertile but chose adoption. We actually haven't spoken to anyone bar work colleagues and parents/siblings about it as we got so many negative comments about 'why' we would do such a thing. Yet now those people are used to the idea I can how can people be so fussy! It makes me irrate that just because we adopt we should be grateful for any child and should take whoever. Why should we?


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Also people  who conceive many have down syndrome and other in utero tests done before choosing whether to go ahead with a pregnancy and abortion exists.  So actually everyone makes choices about their children whether they recognise it or not. It's just society feels okay criticising adopters but not birth parents. Gosh I am on my high horse I just get frustrated by hypocrisy.


----------



## beachgirl (Jun 7, 2007)

another big discrepancy for me is also how black and white and non judgemental adopters have to be whereas anyone else involved can be as judgemental as like and say anything


----------



## Barbados Girl (Jul 7, 2012)

So agree with a lot of the comments on here! I sobbed unashamedly when Liam and Lauren's sw found adopters and I am not a crier. If I was being 100% altruistic I think we would adopt harder to place or older children but part of the reason we are adopting is because we cannot have children and I want the experience of having a baby. We have come to terms with the idea we will miss the newborn, tiny phase. However as a BME couple we will probably not struggle to be placed with a baby of 0-12 months and we will be able to enjoy the chubby, windmilling limb learning to talk phase.  If we can have that, why should people judge us? I bet the people commenting on ******* etc. would not have been prepared to not get preg and adopt a 7 year old instead! That said, for a lot of people, adopting older children is all some people need or want, they don't need to do the baby phase. So why not let them?

I also get the judgment thing. I know we are meant to be very holy and accepting towards the birth families but honestly, when a guy with 40 criminal offences, who sends 3000 abusive text messages to his child's sw and calls his partner a f*cking tw*t in front of everyone cannot understand why his child has been taken into care and suggests it is just so people like us can have children...


----------



## Miny Moo (Jan 13, 2011)

DIY diva - I have to say having two older hard to place children I would not have wanted either of them placed with families that had birth children, and infact have on a few occasions and I have to say this is based soley on my experience of my children and other adopters I know have advised people who have spoken to me about wanting to adopt and have birth children to make sure that they do as much revision as they can, meet as many other adopters as they can, and to make sure it's the life they want for their biological child, make sure they are doing it for the right reasons, I love my son so much, but he just could not of been placed with a family with birth children.

We went into adopting again as we knew in our hearts we wanted another harder to place older child, gosh feels so wrong saying older at only 5 years old, our daughter so far is much easy, and we knew she would be resilient to our son and she can certainly hold her own. It's early days at the moment but extremely hard work, not that I am underestimating how hard it can be with much younger children at placement, but I would not change my two for all the tea in china.


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Sorry moni wasn't generalising and didn't explain I meant when children are grown up x


----------



## mummy to little pea (Nov 8, 2013)

don't forget guys this is on again tonight xxx


----------



## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

Another good episode I thought..showed the ups and downs of the process well..with hitches and happiness thrown in..I shed quite a few tears..
Would have liked to hear how Lauren and Liams placement worked out..I'm not certain it was going to be all easy…


kj x


----------



## Smudgey (Mar 13, 2012)

I have to admit its a bit like car crash TV for me after what we are going through at the min , I cried prob the whole way through the second episode . More so as a lot of the people in it are very familiar to us as it was that LA where LO was from , and that exact exchange day where we found her   it was very very hard viewing . loved Lauren and Liam , so hope it works out for them x


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

Smudgey  

I can only imagine how hard it was to watch after all you've been through. How are you doing? Did you get a response from LA? 
Hoping things will get better for you soon.


----------



## Smudgey (Mar 13, 2012)

Things are no further forward am afraid , they still haven't held the disruption meeting , so we are still 'on hold' as adopters until after that . Then our case needs to go back to panel . They are being very slow , as I presume they now have no ' time frame ' or targets with disrupted intros to work to ? 
We are finding things very tough , it sounds very dramatic but it's almost like LO has died but we have no where to go to mourn for her , and we will never ever know how she is , where she is etc . But we are trying to be as honest as we can with each other and deal with things as they come up . Thanks for asking xxxx


----------



## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Smudgey,
That doesn't sound dramatic at all, you are grieving, you have experienced a loss  
Be gentle on yourselves xx I hope something starts happening soon x


----------



## Mummy DIY Diva (Feb 18, 2012)

Hugs Smudgley not dramatic at all totally understandable x x x


----------



## babas (Oct 23, 2013)

Hugs Smudgey my heart goes out to you. Such a cruel and unfair situation.


----------



## becs40 (Apr 9, 2013)

I definitely don't think it's dramatic at all. I can't ever imagine being able to pick myself from your point. Most of us have had a testing start to get to the point of adoption and then you had that truly awful time during intros. 
I think it's dreadful that they're not moving things forward but also leaving you in limbo on top of everything else.
I really hope things can move forward for you and you can remain strong and don't lose sight of becoming a family. Words don't seem enough really I'm afraid.


----------

