# 12 frozen embryos, how many should we defrost?



## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi all
After ohss and a freeze all last week we ended up with 12 embryos in the freezer. We don't know anything about the quality as they were frozen at one cell. At our follow up appointment we were told it's up to us how many we thaw but if it was her she would go for all 12 to give us the best chance of two good ones. It seemed a bit much to me but of course on the other hand we want the best chance of this working. Our clinic do refreeze if we end up with a few good ones but she made it clear that success with twice frozen is very low. 
Our fet won't be for about three months but it's a big decision so I want to start thinking about it. This is our first nhs cycle so we will have more chances if it doesn't work out.
Thanks 
Fidub


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## buis (Jul 25, 2007)

just wrote long reply and lost it. will they not do 2 or 3 and see how they are? our clinic did that. another cyle may not be as succesfull and even if its free its not emotionaly free if you know what i mean. frozzen cyles are so much easyier. ask why they will not start with  couple, of the best and take it from there. you never know no 12 might be a sibling!!!
good luck, 12 is amazing your doing well 
buis


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi buis
Thank you for your reply. When we were told we had twelve my first thought was about siblings too. I asked about doing a few at a time but they said if those three come to nothing then we've lost the cycle for another 3 months so it would be a huge gamble. Like anyone in this I don't want to not get to et (again!) but 12 seems so extreme doesn't it?  so it's hard to know. I guess the problem is they were frozen straight away so we have no idea of quality at all. I wish they had cultured them before freezing.
Thank you again
Fidub
Xxx


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## Sparkly_Shoes (Jan 5, 2012)

Hi Fidub

Yes it is strange that they were frozen so early!! Mostly they are frozen on day 3 or day 5 (blastocyst stage) 

I had a similar case like yours, I had OHSS (but moderate, not severe) so they tranferred 2 fresh and it never worked (Which was not surprising as I suppose the body had other major traumas going on) 

We are left with 5 frozen blasties and have decided that we will thaw them in 2 cycles rather than all at once 

The reasoning behind this is that one we feel that all 5 need to be given a chance (if all 5 need to be thawed at once to get 2 good embryos thats fair enough) but we felt it was not fair to unthaw all (as our clinic only allows maximum 2 to be transferred) and what if the other 3 are perfectly healthy and we jsut "throw" them away? Especially after being through so much the first cycle to get the eggs it feels a bit strange to just discard them ! 

But this is my feeling and its perfectly fine if you feel differently, I just watned to share so that you can get another view point. 

all the very best, in this journey of infertility there are no straight forward answers, we just have to work it out as wel go along!

All the best for your FET! 

***baby dust***


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi sparkly shoes
Thank you so much for your response. My main problem Is I do think like you. I can't just discard embryos without a second thought as they are potential babies to me. I know not everyone views it like that but I feel quite strongly about that so giving purselves the best chance leaves me at odds with what I believe in. 
Like you say there are so many tough decisions on this journey so I'll just have to be at peace with the one I make.
Thank you and good luck with your fet.
Xxx


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## PiePig (May 16, 2007)

I would defrost all 12 and then see how they do, particularly if they give you the choice to take them to blasts, then they can transfer the best and freeze the rest. Just what I would do, esp seeing as you have the potential for further funded tx.


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

Carnt they defrost 4, see if there is a really good one, if there is then problem sovled and minimal wasted, if there not good defrost another 4 and so on?  


We had 3 frosties on my second go, the clinic defrosted 2 and then the last one when the first 2 did not defrost successfully.


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## 61304 (Apr 13, 2011)

Fidub, I was in exact same position as you, our 11 embryos were frozen on day 1. we were doing DE ivf but I had problem with lining.  they defrosted all 11 and we got 2 blasts to transfer.  I'm glad thats how they did ours. I'm currently on 2ww so not sure of outcome yet


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## beachbaby (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi, i agree with coweyes I would go for 4, that gives you a good amount but also gives you 3 chances. What day do the clinic trannsfer? 
Another point is that FET's from the same IVF cycle are all included in your free NHS cycle and all count as 1 go, so potentially you could have 4 go's if needed and only use up one NHS try.
My clinic froze at 2 day, and i had 10 to freeze, i had 3 thawed twice and only lost 1 from quality. the last cycle as i only had 2 thawed to give us another chance if needed on the understanding if they perished we would thaw the other 2. I got twins from those 2 and still had the 2 in the freezer if needed.

Good luck and go with your gut instinct.


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## PiePig (May 16, 2007)

if they defrost 4 and they aren't suitable for transfer unless that decision is made day of defrost (which it might not be if they are frozen as single cells) then you won't be able to defrost more the next day as your body will be at the wrong stage to the embryos...this is the explanation I have had anyway.


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## PiePig (May 16, 2007)

Also depends where you are as to the funding criteria...ours was for 6 transfers (or 3 fresh cycles)...so each transfer used a try whether fresh or frozen.


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## coweyes (Sep 4, 2008)

I did wander about that after I wrote it, tbh I think u need more information.  Personally I would write a list and take it to your consultant and ask or u carnt make an informed disision.  Also I am not sure about how many how fet goes with one fresh, it may change through different pct's, another question to put to your consultant.

Xxx


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## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

Hi Fidub,

Do your clinic take them to blastocyst stage (day 5) and do the use a slow thaw or fast thaw method?  I am not sure how slow the slow method is but I know there are two different ways of freezing and thawing.  In my freeze all cycle I asked for just two embryos to be thawed each time as it was the second cycle I had overstimmed on and so I thought I was relying on frozen cycles and did not want to waste any embryos.  My clinic had said they could not re-freeze once thawed.  In my first FET they thawed two but one did not survive so they simply thawed one more that morning and transferred two.  In my second FET exactly the same thing happened.  In my third, the two both survived the thaw and were transferred and we still have frozen embryos from that cycle.  I think if my clinic ever took embryos to blastocyst stage then I would consider thawing all to see which ones made it but as they only did 3 day transfers there was no point as all my thawed embryos that survived have been grade 2 or 2.5 so I am not convinced any have been much greater than others for selection.  Hope that helps a little.  All the best with your treatment.


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## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

PiePig,  I agree with you about the funding.  This is very important.  A fresh cycle at my clinic at the time would have given me about a 35% chance of success but their frozen cycles only had an 8% success rate that year.  Only the first frozen embryo transfer was included in that NHS (freeze-all) cycle.  My area only provided 1 NHS cycle.  If however my area had provided two NHS cycles then I would have wanted a second fresh cycle.  I would not have wanted to use both my NHS cycles on 8% chances.  All the primary care trusts have different rules about using frozen embryos as part of the NHS cycles.


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Thank you all so much for your replies, it's been a huge help. Coweyes My clinic will only defrost once in a cycle and it's three months between cycles. So if I defrost four and I don't have any good ones then I've missed out as piepig said. I get three fresh and three frozen transfers. This counts as my first frozen so I actually still have three fresh left after this and if this doesnt work I'd opt for a fresh transfer next time just because of the higher odds as sw girl said. They will take them to blast if I'm lucky enough to get that far and will refreeze after. I found it very hard to get my head around defrosting all 12 but I'm more at peace with it after reading all of this and giving it lots of thought. And hollytrees your story demonstrated why the embryologist suggested all twelve and it was such a big help, thank you. I hope you get your bfp, let me know. Thanks again girls.
Xxxxx


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## SWGirl (Aug 19, 2004)

That is fab news that you get 3 fresh and three frozen cycles.  Which primary care trust are you with?  I must move there!  My first primary care trust was Devon.  No IVF provided by the NHS for my first cycle in 2005 and then unfortunately when they did provide one cycle later this became the frozen embryo transfer for me so my NHS cycle in Devon felt a bit wasted since the chances were considerably reduced.  My new primary care trust provide two fresh cycles (minus the one I already had in Devon) plus I believe two frozen transfers.  Your thread has left me wondering whether my new primary care trust would count my first NHS cycle in Devon as a frozen cycle instead so this has been a very useful thread for me now also.  Good luck everyone!  All the best with the treatment.


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Sw girl it's definitely worth asking. I was surprised that this was now my first frozen go and hadn't used a fresh go. I was having single embryo transfer on the fresh cycle as it was my first go but I get two as its a frozen go. Then if it doesnt work I'll get one on my next go as that will count as my first fresh cycle. I live in Colchester which is north east Essex pct. we do know just how lucky we are to potentially get six goes. I also only waited three months from my referral which really surprised me. That is one thing in all of this that I have always felt so grateful for as I realise now that that's rare. Xx


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## donjee (Aug 4, 2011)

Hello everyone, I thought I would just been ten pence worth to the discussion. I went to see my consultant today and while I was there, I had a chat to the embryologist.
I had a bit of a shock really because I'm sure you know my history from other threads but I had a freeze all I'm march. I have 13 day 2 embryos in deep freeze. I assumed I would have them thawed in twos because that is how they are being stored and had, after weeks of deliberating, decided to have just one transferred. However, today, embryologist said that to give myself best chances of success, I need to thaw "a good number of them - about 7" and transfer two. I was initially horrified as I had read in this thread but then she explained and it does make sense.
She said that if it Hanover been a freeze all, they would have been left longer and probably jess would have survived. of the frozen ones, some are likely to be rubbish quality but they dont know what straws the rubbish ones are in. she also said that of the seven, some won't survive the thaw, some won't make it to day three and by the time transfer is due, they would want to transfer two. 
What a lot to think about . . . again, when I thought I had all this straight in my head. I'm also annoyed 
about the money side of things but that's one to shae here when I'm not trying to type using my phone!


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## donjee (Aug 4, 2011)

sorry for cutting off last message so abruptly but my phone struggles to display whole messages and then runs really slowly.

I hope everyone is well. . . . thinking of you all, regardless of where you are on your journey.

xxx


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi Donjee
I remember you gave me advice on another thread when my Ohss happened. It is a shock when they say that isn't it? I wasn't expecting that at all. I've got my head around it now and all of the reasons make sense. And hollytrees is a good example of the embryologists being right. Can they refreeze in your clinic? When is your estimated et?
Fidub
Xxx


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## donjee (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi Fidub,
I don't mind thawing 6, I can even get my head round transferring 2. what scares me is that I thought that with 13 in the freezer, I had lots of tries. This way, I only get 2 tries. I know my consultant will never treat me again for a fresh cycle and to be honest, I'm pretty sure I will never put myself through it again. So that's it. two tries and that is it. all over. My clinic foot refreeze either. that is what really scares me. My transfer is about week and half depending on thaw and what day we take embryos to before transferring. I'm getting really scared about transfer too. I would love it if some of the real women on here who have been through it, could tell me a blow by blow of what happens and what it feels like etc. After my EC I am literally bricking it!
Where can I find 'hollytrees' story that you referred to?
Thank you so much Fidub, for all your support. Feel like I really need it today. Having a down day- not sure if linked to starting progynova or whether its just one of those days. Thank you though.
Donjee xxx


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## SachaM (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi Fidup,

I think I gave a reply to one of your earlier posts today but I have just seen this and thought I would mention what my clinic said about me embryos as I also had 12 frozen on day 1 after my 1st attempt on IVF back in April. My clinic suggested 3 at a time and they said if there was a problem they could defrost more the following day. We decided in the end to give us the best possible chance to defrost 6 at a time. Really glad we did, of the 6 thawed, 4 survived and we had the best 2 put back in. The embryologist explained that if the remaining two were just as good quality they could freeze them again. The remaining two weren't as good so they did just discard them.

As this is as FET you don't have to wait three months in between treatment if for any reason your not successfully you can go straight away after your withdrawal bleed as you don't have to wait for your ovaries to settle. 

Our embies were put back in on day 3 rather than going for day 5 as our clinic said they had better success rates for FET on day 3 rather than day 5. 

Also it all depends on how many your having put back! No need to thaw 12 if your only having 1 put back in!

Xx


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi
Donjee sorry it's taken so long to reply. How are you feeling now. Is it because of the ohss that you never want to do it again? Obviously I can't comment on et but everything I've read makes it sound painless, like a smear apparently. But the unknown is scary isn't it? Two goes is still good though, hopefully it will only take one. Hollytrees was on the first page of this thread I think.
Sacham it's interesting that they favour three day at your clinic, everywhere is so different isn't it? I need to check with my clinic but I got the impression that three months is their policy for nhs patients. I will definitely go for two for my best chance at this working. It's great that you got two good ones out of six! I bet you were relieved. 
Fidub
Xxx


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## SamJ (Mar 25, 2008)

Hiya

We have a stash frozen and for this FET, we are going with defrosting all 10 day1's, culturing them to blast and picking out the best of the bunch, and maybe have a look at the difference between the 2 blasts we already have in the freezer.  

All the best

sam


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## beachbaby (Jan 31, 2008)

Hi, ok my clinic only did 2 day transfers. I had 10 frozen and had 3 fet's and still had 2 embryos still frozen.I was paying but apart from the last go I went with clinic advice which was 3 at a time to get 2 to transfer. Only 1 of mine was not good enough to use. I got pregnant on all 3 fet's but found I had an implantation problem. 
Regarding defrosting more if the first few perish my clinic did medicated fet's so was easy delay. Non medicated fet's are timed to your cycle. 
My pct you get as mAny fet's as you have eggs all classed under your 1 cycle, not that my pct give any MHz goes anymore been closed for nearly 5 years with 1 short opening last year. 
I was 37 when my enbies were made,and I have twin boys from day 2 fet transfer.
Regarding transfer most people find it easy, however I have a tilted cervix so mine were complicated and after the first one were always done by a consultant due to this, out of 4 transfers only 1 was easy and quick.
Good luck with your decisions


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## donjee (Aug 4, 2011)

Hi there Fidub, Sam and Beachbaby. Thank you for taking the time to to reply to me. I appreciate you trying to calm my nerves re transfer and re the number being thawed. I think I have come to terms with all the embryo side of things now and I do think I may be less anxious about ET too. Just one week to go and I should be ready for transfer. 

How are you? when is your transfer planned for?
u
xxx


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## SamJ (Mar 25, 2008)

Sorry , i dont think i mentioned that this is our last go,    hence the kamikazee approach to defrosting the lot!
Probably know more after sat as to when trf will be. 

good luck -here's to your BFP.

sam


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## Brown Eyed Girl (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi all!

I have been reading this thread with interest as we're in exactly the same position as Fidub - we also had a freeze all at the beginning of July and have 12 little embies in the freezer.  Thank you all for sharing your experiences! x


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## Dreamer21 (May 16, 2012)

Hey fidub.  When are you due to do your FET? I've started a October thread on FET. Will you be doing yours then Xxx

Hope your well, and all set for your turn xxxx


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi everyone
Despite the great response I had last time I am bumping this thread to the top as I'm so confused again. At the advice of our clinic and chatting it through on here we got our head around thawing all 12 of our day one embryos to get the best two. Last week I spoke to a different embryologist at the clinic who said we should do 6 now and save six for later. It does make sense to me but I'm petrified of getting nothing from those six. Has anyone thawed embryos that were frozen on day one? If so how did things work out? If we did all twelve they will refreeze any extra that get to blastocyst but that would mean my next cycle will be with twice frozen ebryos which I'm not sure I have faith in.
Sorry to be greedy by asking for more advice but I feel so stuck again.
Xxx


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## Brown Eyed Girl (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi again Fidub,

Just thought I'd let you know that we were told that the success rates for re-freezing embies at our clinic were basically 0 - they hadn't had a single successful pregnancy with re-frozen embryos.  Of course, this might not be the case for your clinic.

We had decided to go with whatever the embryologist advised us.  They had previously mentioned thawing all 12 of our day 1 embies or thawing half.  When the time came, they told us they wanted to thaw half and we were very happy to go with that, especially having been informed of the success rates for re-freezing embryos.  Out of our 6, 4 survived the thaw and by day 3, two were only 2 cells, one was 4 cells and the other was 7 cells, so only one had developed and was at the stage it should be.

I realise your situation is a bit different to ours as we did a natural FET so no drugs were involved and therefore if no embies had survived and developed, we could have tried again on the next cycle.

Do you know what your clinic's success rates for re-freezing embies are?  Have they had many successful pregnancies?

I can only go from my own experience, and it's easy for me to say that we were happy with thawing just half now as it led to a bfp - I probably wouldn't be saying the same if none had survived!

I hope someone will come along to help you soon. 

Take care. x


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hello!
Thank you again for your help, it's really useful to know the stats. Mine didn't get as far as giving me stats as yesterday they basically told me that their criteria for twice freezing is so strict that after they have transferred the two best I'd actually be unlikely to have anything that meets their refreezing standards. That actually helped. 
We have decided (we think!) on 12. But it could change by tomorrow! The pros for us are that if we can reach blastocyst there's less chance of an ectopic so 12 will give us that chance. Plus today I found out my womb lining isn't ready and although that's only a minor blip we are so fed up of it not running smoothly that we want the best possible chance this time.
As refreezing is unlikely it means our next go if we need it, is a fresh go. And I can honestly say that even with the ohss I found fresh Ivf easier! I wish my clinic did natural fets! 
Thanks again for all of your help
Xxx


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## SachaM (Apr 24, 2012)

Hi fidup,

Sorry it's a late reply! Just thought I would drop by as I was in the Same position as you. I didn't have a fresh cycle as they cancelled mine after ec as they thought I was too high risk of OHSS. We had 12 embies frozen on day 1. Our first FET we had 6 thawed and had two put back in. We got a BFP and then miscarried at 7 weeks. Our second FET we had the remaining 6 thawed and had two top graded blasts put in a few weeks ago......another BFP. The sad thing is, on both FET cycles we had embies that had grown to the final stage and then were discarded as there was nothing they could do with them.

Keep us posted on your journey, best of luck! Xxx


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi Sacha
Thanks for your reply. You have actually posted just as I am preparing for et this afternoon! I'm so nervous and excited!
Congrats on your BFP! I'm sorry to hear you lost the first, I hope this is a sticky one. 
We thawed 12 in the end. I think our biggest deciding factor was the hope of getting to blastocyst as there is a slight decrease in the chance of an ectopic which after two was important to us. We were also petrified of having barely any good ones in six but hindsight is a wonderful thing as the way they were going on day three we may find out today that we have a fair few blastos. I'm determined to hold on to why we did this. We did lose two in the thaw so I'm also reminding myself that if we did six and those two were in it the clinic wouldn't have gone to blasto as they want at least 5. 
We may have some to refreeze but letting go of the rest will be the hardest thing ever. My friend has told me to try to see it as the purpose of the others was to help to possibly give life to the two that go back. 
So as I am a nervous first time et girl today does anyone have any tips?!
Thanks for all of your support
Fidub
Xxx


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## SachaM (Apr 24, 2012)

Hopefully you won't need to go through this again and I'm sure you have made the right decision. I presume your a NHS funded if you have no other children so at least you will be able to get another go for free afterwards. We were private patients as we have a daughter already do it was the best option for us.

On both FET rounds, I practically stayed in my pj's the whole time and watched movies. I signed up to love film and had the unlimited DVD hire and watched all the soppy romantic films I could never get my DH to sit and watch! People say to eat healthy and avoid hot baths as the main 2ww rules but I ate lots of sweet things and had lots of hot baths so I really don't think it matters. 

I did quiz our consultant on what we can and can't do over the 2ww and he said to me if you have to really think about doing something or not or hesitate at all, then don't do it. At least if you don't do it and then don't get a positive you won't be able to look back and say.... I wish I didn't do that. 

Time does seem to drag but when the OTD does come you will sit back and think that actually its come round pretty quick! 

Hopefully you have to beautiful blasts waiting for you today! Keep me posted and I will be thinking of you!

Best of luck! Keep me posted! 

Xx


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## Fidub (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi Everyone
Well I am glad we went for all 12 in the end. Phew! What a journey. We had two top grade blasts out of the 12. They took the rest to day six but there wasn't anything to refreeze. So I am 1 day past a five day transfer and couldn't be happier to be PUPO. So here we go, the next wait has started.
Thank you again for all of your support, I can't tell you how much it's helped. 
Xxxx


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