# PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION - STOP PRISONERS BEING AWARDED IVF ON NHS!!



## winceywillis147

I was wondering if you would take the time to sign my petition. I have been refused IVF on the NHS at the moment due to a weight issue but its come to my attention that at least one prisoner has been awarded £2000 on NHS towards IVF and many more are now applying. They are going through the European Court Human Rights and it seems that ministers may be powerless to deny them this help as it goes against their right to be a father. Obviously as a law abiding citizen I find this most upsetting and have created a petition to stop this. If you agree with me please can you take the time to sign this, it only takes a few minutes to just sign and confirm your email address. No one can see your name on there so its anonymous to anyone looking at the petition online.
Many thanks for your time xxx

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/43709

Also this is the newspaper article referring to it...it really is outrageous..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/four-murderers-and-drug-dealer-to-get-taxpayer-funded-1508533


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## greatgazza

already done as you know wincey. hope you get many more

GGx


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## mrsmcc7

Done


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## Carrots12

Done.  

Could you comment on the Mirror article with a link to your petition to get more signatures?  Am sure loads more people would sign if they new about it.

Good luck.

xxx


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## Hbkmorris

Done flower

I think it's a dam disgrace as I never got a penny funded by the NHS when I was with my ex because he had a child from previous relo although I'm sterilised and cannot conceive naturally no matter whom my partner is also I'm not even allowed to be in his sons life therefore it has no impact on me or my life.

It's a shambles xxx


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## winceywillis147

Thanks so much guys for all the support and signatures so far.
The article which I put a link to in there that was in the Mirror newspaper was also in the Daily Mail and it really documents the case of a Killer who is serving life called Dickinson. Himself and his partner applied for IVF back in 2001 and was initially rejected by the government. To cut a long story short they appealed this decision several times and eventually the case was found in their favor and they were not only awarded costs towards the IVF but also damages. This has set a precedant and the article is basically saying that ministers may be powerless to deny the applications from prisoners that are currently in process. Some of these prisoners have met their partners on line whilst serving time in prison and are not even coming from the background of a long term loving relationship.
It makes me so angry that the likes of myself and others that have posted on here have to suffer. Its so unfair. Thanks again guys xxx


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## kandykane

Done.    disgraceful.


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## goldbunny

sorry i disagree.
i think _everyone_ should get a shot at IVF on the NHS if they want it. i don't think we should pick and choose who gets it.


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## kandykane

so why are some law abiding tax-paying citizens being denied a chance on the NHS while prisoners are eligible? And what about the 'welfare of the child' declaration and references from your gp with regard to that? If you're a few pounds overweight but would make a wonderful parent you don't deserve a baby but if you're the right weight and a convicted murderer then you do? No, doesn't make sense to me.


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## Maisyz

I agree it's absolutely disgusting that these people are allowed IVF. One of those in the story was in jail for 15 years for kicking a man to death. He hasn't just been a slightly naughty boy he's a grade A psycopath. Not everyone deserves IVF, some people deserve the death penalty frankly.

Signed it.


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## greatgazza

surely doing a crime that warrants being sent to prison means you give up your right to a 'normal' life for that time? If you want to have a child don't do a crime that means  you'll spend years in prison..... A woman already with children has to give them up if she gets sent to prison.  Prison is supposed to be a punishment and people are sentenced to go there for a reason.  You're not allowed to have sex so should you then be allowed to have IVF in its place?

I'm single and don't get a go on the NHS so why the feck should a murderer who's given up their rights by robbing a family of their loved one?  Prisons are enough of a holiday camp as it is.


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## scotchie

Done x


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## StephyC

Just signed it.
I think it is really frustrating when people who throw away their human rights, and are locked up then start to throw their "human right" to have a baby even though they aren't in a healthy relationship, when people can't have a baby and can't get funding who are decent law abiding citizens!!!!!!!!!!! It sucks


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## KaitsWishOnAMoonbeam

Signed! I've already commented on the DM story as we didn't qualify for funding. I haven't got a child so what about MY human rights? This country is screwed up and only certain people reap the benefits while others who actually contribute to society get sweet FA! So proud to be british (not).


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## tazza_uk

I have signed this as well.

Why does it seem more and more that its not actually worth being a law abiding citizen? I work, pay my taxes and haven broken any laws and im not seeing any of the 'benefits' criminals do. Its appalling.

i was raised with the saying 'if you cant do the time, dont do the crime'. Yet here are people who can now shout human rights and get what they want, when they want it.  How about the human rights of those they hurt?!


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## Ticky

I agree with Goldbunny. I think petitions to prevent someone from having a family is wrong   I can see the upset and frustration it could cause someone who doesn't qualify for IVF on the NHS, but why would you wish that on someone else?  Alot of people say if you cant afford to pay for your own treatment then you shouldn't drain the system and have other tax payers pay for something that isn't a 'right'. I am a taxpayer but i have broken the law. Does this mean i don't deserve my child or that I'm a rubbish mum? No, it means i made some bad choices. 

Yes one of the people mentioned kick a man to death and obviously he should be prevented from being around any helpless child, but what about those that have committed petty crimes or those that are incarcerated wrongly? Its not as black and white as 'people in prison are all baddies' sometimes circumstances on the outside have ruled. 

Im not being confrontational, i just see it from a different angle x


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## Ivfmamma

Signed. 

It's disgusting.

It took me 10 years ttc, & 5 years of hospital appointments to get nhs funded treatment & I have no Fallopian tubes.

Ladies its so unfair that you can't be funded & c*nts like this can be. 

If I had the money I'd pay for it for you   x


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## goldbunny

for 'fairness', everybody would get one go, no matter who they were. i don't feel qualified to decide - who is? everyone has a different idea of who is deserving. my list would be different from yours. there isn't fairness unless everyone is treated the same. the issue i have also is this, ivf does not ever affect just one person. it's about families. should we punish wives for their husbands behaviour or potential grandparents for their son/daughter in laws behaviour? fair means either nobody gets it free, or everyone does.


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## goldbunny

and stayjng out of prison does not make anyone a 'good' person. there are plenty of bad guys on the outside. if the argument is that 'bad people' shouldn't have children, then we would need a system where every person is chemically prevented from becoming a parent until they pass some kind of test to prove they are not a bad guy. 

that's impossible, and a bit silly.


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## tazza_uk

Hi, 

Everyone i know at the clinic had to be actively trying for at least 6months to a year (age dependent) without success, or have a known medical condition, to even be given a consultation at fertility centres and both people have to attend the meeting for forms signing etc.  So technically prisoners do not qualify on the ground of timescales.  Logistically they are in prison and since it is not a life threatening condition (according to the nurses i have spoken to) prisoners should not be entitled to attend meetings either.  There is also the safety implication of other patients/staff at that clinic. Will even more special allowances be made for criminals? 

How do you pick and choose who should/not get help? Petty crimes can be devastating to the victims. Someone incarcerated due to possession of drugs, could potentially be just as life threatening to a youngster as the violent one.

This is true there are a lot of 'bad people' who are lucky to be able to have family.  Thats the reason there are social workers and children removed and placed into care homes for their own safety.

Correct me if i have misunderstood, but you are allowing some criminals treatment but not others due to the crime. How does that equal being fair?  Personally i feel that they are in prison for a reason and should not be allowed treatment irrespecitve of crime committed. Once they have served their time, repaid their debt to society, and meet all criteria then join the queue.

Everyone has their own opinion which cannot be judged rightly or wrongly. Those are simply the reasons behind me signing this petition.


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## greatgazza

i'm not signing a petition to prevent someone from having a family:



> I think petitions to prevent someone from having a family is wrong


i'm signing a petition to not allow incarcerated prisoners who are there for a reason having IVF on the NHS. If you want to have a family and even have IVF on the NHS don't do a crime that means you can't access that treatment as whatever you have done has stripped you of your right to freedom for that time.

what's the point of prisons if you can do exactly the same as law abiding citizens and possibly get even MORE rights?

GGx


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## Ticky

What about the wives on the outside that are still in love with their partners and chose to stand by them? Do they not deseve the love of a child? Dont they deserve their 'human rights' of having a family?


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## greatgazza

i'm afraid i believe that if they chose a partner who has murdered someone and ends up in prison for years then their partner has taken that right away.  if they decide to stand by them then they are choosing to lose opportunities too.  

prisons are supposed to be a punishment and if others apart from the offender suffer that's unfortunate but we all make choices in life. if you want a family don't do a crime that means you spend your child rearing/bearing days in prison.


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## Ticky

I can see where you're coming from. I 100% agree that 'lifers' or those with a serious heavy crime hanging over them should not ever be able to parent a child, but its the ones that have made a mistake or the wives of prisoners that shouldn't be written out. There are many facilities in the UK where a mother is allowed to keep/take her children into prison with her. Why is that acceptable to society if the other subject isn't? Theres no difference, its just picking and choosing.


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## Gremlinn

I do not believe in taking the 'right to have a child' away from anyone, thats awful.. so if a prisoner wants a child, great pay for it but not recieve it free on the NHS what an absolute joke.. 
Signed!!


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## Hbkmorris

I'm with you.. NO IVF NHS tx to prisoners I can't get any on the good side of the law so it only am I paying for tx I'm now costing me £22k I'm now paying for the gits inside to have IVF!! Oh and I'm paying for them to be in prison!! Wonderful!! I'd sign time & time again xx


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## greatgazza

> Do they not deserve the love of a child? Dont they deserve their 'human rights' of having a family?


what about the parents whose child has been murdered? did they not deserve the love of their child? what about the child whose parent has been killed? what about the 'human rights' of having a family that the deceased no longer has?

there may well be some women who are allowed their children in certain facilities but I also wouldn't agree with a woman with no children being allowed IVF on the NHS while incarcerated. You've done something to put you there, you forfeit those things.



> but its the ones that have made a mistake or the wives of prisoners that shouldn't be written out.


it's unfortunate if someone's made a 'mistake' but how on earth could you categorise each crime/prisoner and decide who *should* be allowed to have a child? prisons are full of 'mistakes' but someone could still be dead or disabled or traumatised due to it. and as i said wives of prisoners have made a choice. so, just cos a guy's got a wife who wants a child they should be allowed? this is such a huge can of worms. then what about the single guy who would like a child? can he search for a co-parent?



> I do not believe in taking the 'right to have a child' away from anyone, thats awful


these people have every right to have a child. just not when they're in prison. so if that's what you want don't end up there.

life is harsh but we'd end up with a totally anarchistic state if we didn't have some laws and a prison sentence is becoming less and less of a punishment or deterrent that WE are paying for.

where's the punishment if you can do everything you could on the outside? prisons would become (even) more of a joke and people would be fighting to get in there, living off everyone else and never having to worry about work or responsibility.

We're going to have to agree to differ on this one.


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## Gremlinn

Great gazza u quoted me but if u read my post i actually AGREE with you. I do not think prisoners should recieve free IVF From The NHS 
And i signed the petiton


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## greatgazza

yes, sorry Gremilinn i probably wasn't clear. i was just trying to make the point that no one was *taking* the right away from these people, they had done it themselves iyswim so i think we're saying the same thing but in different ways

GGx


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## Gremlinn

Oh yeah,  i see what u mean, fair one!
Congrats on ur baby, what a cutie   xx


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## greatgazza

thank you   can't believe he'll be 1 on saturday.

GGx


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## Lil Elvis

Far too contentious .... and pointless. We are bound by rulings from the European Court, whether we like it or not. It will just become a headache for the PCTs as they will have to determine whether they meet the other criteria ie already having children, BMI, AMH. It probably only comes down to a handful of prisoners who will qualify. 

Rather than wasting your time on something futile why not actually try to get the PCTs to ALL give all patients access to IVF in line with the NICE guidelines?


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## goldbunny

yeah the people i feel sorry for are those whose partner had previous family years ago and are then told then don't qualify... that seems unfair. one go at ivf for all!


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## greatgazza

i agree with one go for ivf for all..........but only if you're in a position to 'take it up' and to me, quite frankly, if you're in prison, you're not. you've lost that right. you killed someone or some other quite serious crime that means you GAVE UP those rights. fair enough apply when you're out but,sorry, you do the crime and  you do the time, end of. otherwise what's the bl**dy point of the judicial system


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## kandykane

greatgazza said:


> i agree with one go for ivf for all..........but only if you're in a position to 'take it up' and to me, quite frankly, if you're in prison, you're not. you've lost that right. you killed someone or some other quite serious crime that means you GAVE UP those rights. fair enough apply when you're out but,sorry, you do the crime and you do the time, end of. otherwise what's the bl**dy point of the judicial system


That's exactly my point of view. Actions have consequences and people need to accept responsibility for their own actions and suck up the consequences. (I love being on a thread with you greatgazza - you always say exactly what I think and save me typing lol )


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## KaitsWishOnAMoonbeam

Greatgazza   nicely said.

DF's first wife and eldest son were killed in a hit and run. We are denied funding for NHS IVF because DF has a surviving child (who was seriously injured but not killed in the same incident). 

Yet the murdering SOAB who sits in a comfortable cell with playstations, movies and all the comforts of the Ritz was potentially allowed to have the free treatment that we are denied because its against his Bleep HUMAN RIGHTS.... and we're paying for him to get it! 

I haven't shown or told DF about this story, it cuts him up as it is that the scumbag is sitting pretty while DF has been rebuilding his and his surviving sons lives.

Prison should be bare bones treatment just enough to keep you alive and serve out the sentence, not all this namby pamby EU crap.  How anyone can say it's not fair to deny them a family needs to get their head looked at and spend some time walking in someone's shoes who has been where we are now!

Sorry for the rant but this pee's me off more than anything!


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## Maisyz

I think everyone should get the three tries that NICE recommend but which few PCT's will fund. (Apart from people banged up of course). I agree with whoever said maybe we should have a petition to the government for something like this not sure how to word it though, think the way to get most support would be end the postcode lottery on all medications. Perhaps someone cleverer than me could come up with something. Pretty sure on an all meds basis we could get enough signatures to force a debate.


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## kandykane

How about this one?
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/30513


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## Maisyz

Fab, could that be added as a new post or something so everyone who wouldn't read this thread will see that one and sign it?


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## MandyPandy

It's a tough one to call.

On one hand I think that prisoners do not deserve the right to family life - after all, by being incarcerated they have already given that up... but on the other hand, if the only chance at having a child for the wife, is for her husband to have IVF, then I don't think it's fair to deprive the wife of that.  Of course it could be argued that they should pay for that privately and not through the NHS, but then that is putting the wife in the same position as those of us who are not entitled to NHS funding... and we all know how that feels. 

Also, being convicted of murder is not always as simple as it sounds.  It brings to mind images of horror, blood and gore, but it may well have been a tragic accident for which a plea in defence has not been accepted by the jury.  There was a man recently who stabbed his wife in his sleep - he was sleep walking.  He pleaded automatism as his defence and was 'lucky' enough to have succeeded (although he still had to live with the horror of what he had done), but had he failed, he would have been serving a life sentence for murder.  Being convicted of murder is rarely straightforward.

It's not a cut and dried situation at all and sensationalist newspaper articles don't help.


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## greatgazza

Glad i can save your poor little fingers kandykane  

have signed that one as well. 

GGx


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## winceywillis147

Hi everyone

I would just like to say after reading all your replies, that I didnt start this petition to try and deny anyone the chance of having a family. Of course Im in that petition and very painful. But I agree with GG  and as far as I am concerned, the prisoners that we are talking about here are lifers, or long serving prisoners for hideous crimes. Those serving time for petty crimes have not been mentioned as they are surely going to be released and able to have children as free people. However, the way I see it, they have denied themselves and taken away their own rights by committing such horrific acts. I do feel sorry for their partners but I agree with GG in the fact that it is there choice. If I found out my partner had done something like that Im afraid I wouldnt be sticking around.

I most certainly do believe that everyone should be allowed at least one go at IVF for free, I dont see it any differently to people who have other health problems and need operations on the NHS. No woman should be denied that ...However I do believe that prisoners have given up that right along with all the other rights. What about the fact that they may be in prison for taking away someone elses child unlawfully. What about the rights of that mother?
When I heard about this, (Not through a sensationalised newspaper) but on Sky News.. It really upset me as Ive said, my husband and I both work hard and live our lives like good people following the rules and we are now saving hard to pay for IVF privately in case I am unable to lose the weight I need. Please dont blame for being angered that criminals may be awarded the IVF for free...surely anyone can see how unfair that would be...x


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## staceysm

Well, this will be my one and only post on this.  

Firstly I am sick of hearing about the rights of the Mother/woman to have her own family.  Why are the poster's who are supporting this, not thinking about the rights of a child?

Every child has the right to a safe, stable and secure child hood.  I have a friend whose Dad got 18 yrs in jail for manslaughter when she was a baby.  I wish I could get her on here and you could ask her how it felt.  Her childhood was horrendous.  She never knew her Dad at all and a 2 hr prison visit once a month, hardly gave her a great bond with him.  She was bullied and called names at school. Her older sister turned to drugs and died at 21 yrs of age.  The man that was killed was very well known and they had to constantly watch there backs.  Her Dad was released about 5 yrs ago and they they have no relationship at all, she hasn't seen him for about 3 yrs now.

Luckily she is a lovely girl and has managed to get married and have 3 children of her own, but it was a long journey for her to get there.

Rant over.
X


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## Ticky

Again i am NOT supporting lifers or violent criminals recieving this


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## Ticky

GG - you have given me a different outlook to think about and after some thought, you have a massive point.


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## greatgazza

Ticky  

GGx


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## Fiona_1982

Have signed for you
Good luck x


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## Beandreaming

Signed.


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## (hugs)

signed them both


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## Keeping busy

Done and posted the link on the board I post on to hopefully encourage more signatures xxx


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## lou-lou12

I did not qualify for NHS treatment because my husband had a child, and a vasectomy after being left alone to bring up his own, and his ex girlfriends other child, because she abandonded them. Yes he made the choice to have the vasectomy based on the situation he was in at the time, HIS CHOICE! But not mine! Yet I do not get NHS treatment so am basically suffering for a choice HE MADE! Isn't that a bit like the wives/partners of prisoners? Suffering because of a choice that they did not make. Yet they are to be given NHS treatment? Hardly seems fair to me! 

Some people may say my husband doesn't deserve a second chance after having a vasectomy, however he was in an abusive relationship and in my eyes proved himself as a father after going to court and fighting for 2children, one of whom wasn't even his own, and bringing them up alone, with only his parents to help, until we met! 

So far my treatment has cost me 8k, a small sum compared to some people, and we are lucky enough to be expecting a little boy in April. We only have ourselves to thank for that. We worked hard to pay for treatment and are continuing to work hard to create a loving home for our children and to be able to give them a childhood to remember..... I do not agree with prisoners being given NHS treatment, when others whose situation was not a direct result of their own actions are refused!! The country has gone mad!!

Signed!!


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## duckybun

Hi ladies,

This has really got everyone's blood boiling, but I just want to point out that we are living in a  country where we have inherited a National Health service which is tettering on the edge of oblivion. Has any read any of the news about private companies being allowed to take and treat NHS patients, being paid by the government and not having to pay tax on the fees they are charging because the state services don't have to pay tax. I'm sorry but there is fairness gone mad run amuck and prisoners being allowed NHS IVF is the same in my eyes. 

I only get one free go on the NHS in Northern Ireland despite the NICE guidelines that everyone eligible should get 3, I know alot of you are in the same situation or worse, but I am not going to object as I understand how desperately under pressure the NHS is to provide basic health care in reasonable time. I had to go private for my Laparoscopy for excison of severe stage 4 endometriosis, which thank god we were covered for through DH insurance through work, and I didn't complain. We would have been waiting in total for the guts of a year for the surgery from my diagnostic laparoscopy with all the waiting times between review consultations and referrals even get on the waiting list to see the surgical consultant, let alone the actual waiting list for the surgery. However why the hell I have stoically put up with all the 'failures' of the NHS in our care which I have scratched up to finanical constraitnts when they are being forced to pay for Prisoners who have not contributed to society and are draining the resources of our country by the   EU i have no idea.... 

We as tax payers may be paying for 2 potentially fertile people to have IVF treatment If they have to still fulfill the same criteria as us in terms of BMI and previous children, answer me this ..... is not having sex now considered to fall into the unexplained infertility category? Surely that is the main reason they are seeking out IVF in the first place?

it is not against their human rights, they denied themselves the chance of having a family, and if the rest of us have to live by the rules then so should they. And I'm sorry to say this, but if women who are married to men on the 'outside' who are denied the opportunity of IVF because of their partners previous children then surely it is against their human rights as much as it is against the human rights of prisoners to have a family. There is something seriously off in the EU's judgement here....

Rant over (for now)

X
Ducky


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## lou-lou12

Ducky that was exactly my point..... It's not against my human rights because my husband has a child, yet it's against a murderers? Doesn't make sense to me I'm afraid x


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## duckybun

I agree with your point Lou Lou, I think it's so arbitrary, the government hav drawn the line in the sand on the basis if certain criteria that they feel in their wisdom is as fair as they can make it and then the eu trumps in and turns it all in its head, it's ridiculous. Why you should have to pay when prisoners don't isn't fair to me, and for all of those who argue that it's not fair for certain people to be selected over others, there is a total lack of understanding for how under pressure the Nhs is financially and the decisions that they have to make to ensure that cancer patients, children needing vaccinations, elderly people needing the flu jab.... Etc etc means that all of our needs have to be judged on criteria that seems unfair, but my point is that the eu rocks up banging on about human rights and prisoners can bypass the queue for funding the rest of society as a whole is in a picking line for. 
Sorry if it sounded like I was arguing against you Lou Lou, I just got carried away and rambled a bit but I totally agree in principal with what you are saying
X


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## lou-lou12

No Ducky I totally agree with your point.... If they don't think that me and my husband are deserving of NHS fertility treatment then I take that on the chin... But I won't be very happy if they refuse me and let prisoners have it! It seems that the country is too soft, and imprisonment is no longer a punishment but a bloody holiday!


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## beckalouise

Signed, good luck with getting many many more x


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## purplejr

Signed both x


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## Jess81

signed, hope you get lots of signatures for this one! xx


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## hopeandprayer

Hi everyone. Ive sighed it. law abiding people are being refused IVF and they are being given it for free. Doesnt make sense.!!!!!


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## Bluebubble

Ive signed it and shared on my ******** page so you should get quite a few more!


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## Sheilaweb

Signed


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## nelly1103

have signed your petition good luck ,,,, x


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## deblovescats

Done! I so totally agree with you. Why should criminals be allowed IVF funding when lots of people are denied it who are law abiding citizens paying taxes. I'm single and have always wanted children, but not been in a relationship where it is possible. I work and have paid taxes all my life, but I have to pay for my own treatment, as I don't qualify on the grounds of marital status and age! I'm 40+. If you've been sent to prison you're not paying taxes, and the idea is that you're there to be punished and having IVF treatment should not be funded. These prisoners are hardly in a stable relationship with their partners are they? When funding to treatments is so limited, it should not be available to those who do harm to society!


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## donna80

Signed both. 
Donna xx


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## Angel delight

Have to say I feel shocked at this threads existence. I thought the point of FF's was to provide support and information to everyone going through the hell of infertility & treatment. Time would be better spent on more positive thoughts.


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## greatgazza

well if prisoners are awarded fertility tx on the nhs then there would more than likely be even less fertility tx for those on here. trying to do something about that seems pretty positive to me.
.


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## Tiny21

Done


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## fiona in welwyn gc

Never got a penny from nhs!  We have now spent 100k.  Both worked since age 18 and have good jobs paying lots of tax.  Surprised that some people who have been successful can't understand the frustrations of those less fortunate who are just outraged at such an insult.


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## Jam&amp;Cream

I work in a prison (female estate) and can honestly say I've never known any prisoner to be receiving IVF whilst sentenced. Can only imagine this would happen if the wheels were already in motion so to speak before any sentenced was passed. 
How people know also that the said prisoner is "hardly in a stable relationship" is beyond me. A lot probably most are in prison because they deserve to be. Unfortunately this cannot be said about all, a lot of whom have husbands, wives, children at home. And yes are in a stable relationship. 
Please don't think that from saying this I'm some sort of do gooder. I'm not, its a job, i get paid, i go home. I just think everyone should be looked at on an individual basis. Not everyone is the same. 

AndLou


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## coweyes

I dont totally understand! So what there saying is that just because someone is in jail they should not automatically be discounted from having treatment on the nhs?  But i guess they still have to qualify for treatment the same as anyone else?  Eg age, bmi etc etc is that correct?


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## greatgazza

i have no idea whether people in prison are in stable relationships or not, that doesn't concern me. what does is that they're there full stop. and they're there for a reason, whatever that reason may be. but by being there they give up rights, end of.



> probably most are in prison because they deserve to be


 so some don't deserve to be there? why are they then? aside from terrible miscarriages of justice, then they've done a crime that put them there, no?

Fiona I too, never got a penny from the NHS and have paid my taxes etc so I agree.

Coweyes, yes, i would imagine they still have to qualify on those criteria. I don't think it could get THAT unfair as it's unfair enough already.

My point is if you end up in prison you LOSE rights. Or what's the flaming point of it?? Some of them are enough of a holiday camp as it is, that we're all paying for, they're supposed to be a PUNISHMENT.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime...

GGx


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## greatgazza

They're discussing this on This Morning on Thursday as part of their 'Fertility Week'

GGx


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## coweyes

Mmmmmm i think the problem is that prisoners don't give up their human rights cos they are in jail.  Human rights apply to everyone the fact that they have committed a crime and that they are not paying taxes is not part of it (rightly or wrongly).  I suspect there are also a lot of people who arnt in jail who are claiming benefits who are aslo going through ivf.


Yes there are many many people who dont receive nhs funding and the whole funding issue it totally and utterly wrong.  The problem is that the nhs fertility criteria is based on a tick box system (well it is in our area).  Eg if your out of the age range or your bmi is too high then thats it you dont get it.  


I think theres bound to be so few cases of prisoners receiving help that its a bit of a storm in a tea cup, not saying its right but how many per year??


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## Maisyz

I agree with lots that GG has said.



coweyes said:


> Mmmmmm i think the problem is that prisoners don't give up their human rights cos they are in jail. Human rights apply to everyone the fact that they have committed a crime and that they are not paying taxes is not part of it (rightly or wrongly).


Indeed human rights do apply to everyone but it appears that prisoners have more human rights than us. There are lots of lovely couples out here who are denied IVF with no regard for their human rights or right to family life, they're just told you aren't rich enough so tough luck. They haven't decided to kick someone to death which is apparently exactly what one of the blokes who has been granted IVF did. He (hopefully) will never see the lght of day again, how exactly he and his partner (who chose to be with a psycho after his imprisonment) manage to pass the "Welfare of the child" test I have no clue, presumably their rights also take priority over any potential child who if it could speak would probably say you know what I'd prefer my parents were decent people not a psycho who kicked some bloke to death for no reason.



coweyes said:


> I suspect there are also a lot of people who arnt in jail who are claiming benefits who are aslo going through ivf.


Yes perhaps there are, being out of work or poor isn't a crime, it doesn't mean that they aren't capable of being fantastic amazing parents and financially providing for their child when this rather rubbish ecomony improves and there are actually jobs for people. I don't think it's right to compare them to prisoners who actively chose to break the law and frankly deserve nothing.

Right off to watch Fertility Week as I'm one of those not working (don't worry though I don't claim benefits).


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## duckybun

I think I've said this before earlier in this thread, cant remember, but surely if one of the boxes that we all have to tick is that we have been having regular sex for a minimum period with our current partner of 2 yrs or what ever it is in your area then anyone in prison cannot under any circumstance possibly meet that as a criteria? So they are infertile because they have lost the right to be in an active sexual relationship as a result of being imprisoned? Surely that means that every single prisoner would be entitled to IVF of we're going to follow the logic of not denying anyone their human rights...... there has to be a line, and i for one am of the opinion that if someone is sent to prison then they lose their personal liberties.... which includes their right to have a sexual relationship with a partner on the outside, therefore their chance to father, or mother a child for the duration of their sentence. Thats not denying them a human right, its denying them a liberty which is the definition of a punitive jail sentence. Therefore no prisoner should be entitled to IVF, whether they get funding from the government or are willing to fund it privately. Some might see this as harsh but I believe the whole point of a judicial system is to provide deterrents for criminal activity and it is simply failing to do that if we end up muddying the lines between personal liberties and human rights

x
ducky


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## coweyes

Maisyz


I never said that i was against someone having treatment when they were claiming benefits.  I simply pointed out that that's an  irrelevant point in this argument as its not about that.  The fact is that prisoners are given human rights the same as anyone that's where the crunch of the problem is, its nothing to do with claiming benefits.  


I dont think prisoners are given more rights than others i think the idea is that they are given the same rights!  Yes there are lots of lovely couples who have been refused funding due to various reasons, but im guessing that prisoners also have the same criteria.  


Duckybun i totally and utterly agree with you.


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## greatgazza

so, i'm confused, coweyes, are you saying you agree that you DON'T think prisoners should be awarded IVF on the NHS?  Because if you agree with Duckybun then I believe that is her stance.

GGx


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## coweyes

What im saying is that we need to know that facts!  Its not simply enough for me to say that i don't think any prisoner should receive funding just cos others who arent prisoners also dont receive funding!  


What Duckybun has said makes seance  its not an argument based on the unfairness of funding its based on fact.  The problem with a site like this is that we all jump on the band wagon because of our own personal thoughts and annoyance over funding.  I just dont think you can compare someone not meeting the criteria against a prisoner, thats not the issue here the issue is a prisoner meets all the criteria  all the box's are ticked except the fact that their a prisoner.  Lets get back to basics about this argument!


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## greatgazza

that's what i'm confused about tho. cos my argument is that they shouldn't be getting ivf solely because they are a prisoner. they have forfeited that right. i'm not talking about criteria, i too, agree with what duckybun says....


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## StephyC

I was just reading the Daily Mail online, and thought you might be encouraged by the news that there is support for your campaign among MPs!!! I thought this was great news for us law-abiding women who can't get IVF because of step-children! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2285675/Ill-ban-IVF-prisoners-says-Grayling-Justice-Secretary-vows-Strasbourg-judges.html


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## Expecting

I've just been watching this morning (instead of tidying the house...naughty) and I've just seen a debate about this on TV. Oh my goodness. What a ridiculous idea! I've also grumbled it http://www.grumble.org.uk/g/86181660-b304-4726-8016-f8398efd12c1
This makes me so cross when so many people are on long waiting lists for this treatment who live their lives within the law!


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## Rachsi

Done  totally wrong


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## kulaikulai

Signed.
I feel very strongly about this as I have been denied funding owing to my age.
Although I come under the age according to NICE guidelines, my PCT can make their own mind up about that. So I don't qualify. Had I lived 50 miles away I would have qualified. The really unfair thing about this is is that it is DH who has the condition and he is 8 years my junior! Well under my PCT's cut off age.
Thanks for putting this petition out and allowing people a voice -when choices are taken away from them every day.
Wish if there was a way to advertise this petition more openly.
Good luck with it!


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## ruthhr

Oh man...I only joined today, what a thread to join on!
Signed, shared, and commented on the article. What an absolute outrage.
I've actually had people say to me that the NHS shouldn't be funding IVF because having children is a 'lifestyle choice' and not a 'right' - well, if it isn't a 'right' for the law-abiding among us, it's definitely not a right for these scum! (It's interesting to note that all of those who, in various forms, have voiced this opinion to me had children without any problems so probably don't understand how it feels not to be able to perform what is not a 'lifestyle choice' but a basic biological function and a primal urge...)
I can understand the viewpoint that everyone should get a go at IVF if they need it - but I'm afraid that the commission of a crime leads to punishment, and in order to be an effective deterrent a punishment needs to include sanctions. This is a sanction - the removal from every day family life of the criminal. So tough - if you want to be able to have a family, don't do things which mean you wind up in prison.
It's also not clear why these people needed IVF - was it a medical need, or were they not banged up would they have been able to conceive naturally? If they needed IVF in order to conceive purely because they are unable to have sex then that makes it even worse - their inability to conceive relates solely to their incarceration so allowing them IVF to circumvent that renders the punishment which a custodial sentence represents virtually pointless.
I really hope the petition gets somewhere!


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