# Sticky  Surrogacy Law



## Anthony Reid

Big thanks to Natalie Gamble and Lester Aldridge for providing the following leaflet which will be of interest to members considering surrogacy.

Lester Aldridge LLP
Solicitors
Russell House
Oxford Road
BOURNEMOUTH BH8 8EX

Direct Line: + 44 (0)1202 786198
Fax: + 44 (0)1202 786170
E-mail: [email protected]
Website: http://www.lesteraldridge.com


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## Jo

Thanks Natalie I am sure this will be of help to many of the members on these boards 

Love Jo
x x x


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## NatGamble

*NOTE ADDED OCTOBER 2009:

You may find it useful to see the wealth of up to date information on all the legal aspects of surrogacy on our website at http://www.nataliegambleassociates.com/page/surogacy/22/.

Our website covers UK and international surrogacy, history and context of UK surrogacy law, who are treated as the legal parents at birth, citizenship and entry clearance for foreign arrangements, the parental order application process and the conditions you have to meet, protective measures you can take in the meantime (including wills and parental responsibility agreements), recent changes to the law etc. The court forms you need to apply for a parental order are also there, together with judgments on recent surrogacy cases and a copy of the law itself.*
*
Also, if you want to contact me for help or advice, please do contact me.*

*Happy reading  *

*ORIGINAL POST FROM FEB 2009:*
Now we have a sticky thread on surrogacy law, I thought it might also be helpful to add a mention for international arrangements, because I am conscious that this is not covered in our leaflet above.

I just wanted to plaster a big WARNING sign if you are thinking of doing this. Specialist legal advice is absolutely essential before you proceed. Do not rely on advice from clinics/ hospitals/ surrogacy agencies about how the law works. International law is immensely complicated and they are not qualified to advise.

Here are some pointers:

*If you are a UK couple thinking of using a foreign surrogate*

Various foreign systems of law have different laws on surrogacy to ours, providing that the intended parents are automatically the parents at birth. However, if you are domiciled in a part of the UK, UK law will still apply to you as the intended parents.

If you use a foreign surrogate, this can leave you in a situation where you are not the legal parents at birth under UK law, and the surrogate is not a legal parent at birth under her home law. Your child is then legally parentless (and also stateless for immigration purposes), which can create enormous problems, not least that you will not be able to bring your child into the UK after he or she is born.

If you are going abroad to a place where commercial surrogacy arrangements are permitted, this could also jeopardise your rights to become the parents under UK law. The court will also require the consent of the surrogate and her husband before giving a parental order, which can be immensely difficult to evidence if they are outside the UK.

If you proceed blindly you can end up in an irretrievable mess (including criminal liability and your child ending up in a foreign orphanage).

*If you are using a UK surrogate but have foreign connections/ origins yourselves*

You can only get a parental order if you are domiciled in the UK. Domicile is a complicated and ancient legal concept and it is crucial to confirm that you qualify if you or your parents have foreign origins - being resident in the UK is not sufficient.

Sadly, there was recently a case of a Turkish couple (not domiciled in the UK) who were in this exact situation and ended up in nine months of expensive litigation after their child was born. They were wrongly advised by COTS about their eligibility for a parental order (though COTS' advice, based on their experience, was understandable given that the courts previously got it wrong on several occasions and awarded parental orders where they shouldn't have done).

The courts are now, however, alert to this issue. They have also warned that they will award costs against people in a similar situation, which means that you could end up paying, not only for your own costs (likely to be tens of thousands of pounds) but also for those of the court/ state, which in this particular case were some £35,000.

Please please please get legal advice before you proceed with any kind of cross-border surrogacy arrangement (and arguably with any surrogacy arrangement). A few hundred pounds spent at the outset could save you thousands - maybe even hundreds of thousands - of pounds if you get it wrong.

Natalie


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## OD2

Natalie,

Thanks so much for all this incredibly useful information.  Would it be ok if I posted it on the Surrogacy UK site, so there's a greater chance of more people benefiting from it?

F


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## NatGamble

I would be delighted - please do.  

If you don't mind including my contact details, so anyone who needs advice knows where to find me, that would be fabulous (we're not currently on the list of recommended solicitors on SUK, which we really should be!).


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## OD2

I have included your details, Natalie.  Thanks!


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## NatGamble

Forgive my ignorance - what's ALW?


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## NatGamble

Sorry just figured it out and I've emailed them direct to ask if that's ok.


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## nikkis

thanks Nat for the information..you dont read about all this in the websites or magazine articles, do you...!
Nikki x


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## NatGamble

Hi Nikki

No - the public information out there on the complications arising from international surrogacy is absolutely appalling, which is why I do all I can to get this message across.

N


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## nikkis

and very good of you it is, too!
If we were serious about looking further into things, would we need to make an appmt with you at your office?  Can you pm me with the costs and stuff? Nikki


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## Shellyj

Hi there,

I was hoping for a little advice on the law regarding using a friend as a surrogate.

If we go ahead with this, do we need to take legal advice, or is it ok to proceed by ourselves, as it is a known surrogate.

We would hope to use a clinic abroad for the use of  donor eggs, as surrogate is 38 now.

Many thanks,

Shellyjxx


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## NatGamble

Hi Shellyj

I think I've just replied to you on your other thread as well, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself!

Yes, it's a good idea to get legal advice at the outset, just to make absolutely sure that you won't have any problems getting a parental order (to make you the legal parents) at the end of it.  One of the problems with surrogacy law in the UK is that if you can't tick all the parental order boxes, there often isn't a good alternative solution, so it's well worth making absolutely sure you won't have any problems.

Once pregnant, it's also sensible to put in place wills to protect you all against the risk of any of you dying during the process.

And then once your baby is born, you will need to apply for a parental order.  Though lots of couples do this without legal representation, it is a legal process and it's helpful to understand precisely what you need to do.  I typically give people all the information and paperwork they need to do the application themselves (unless there are legal complexities or problems, in which case they might need more active representation).

Good luck!

Natalie


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## nostalgicsam

hi natalie were just going thru po and our po reporter has said our surro and her hubby have they have 2 sign consent forms in court as requires witnessing? we dont know anyone else who has had to do this? can you advise? as her hubby works away and will lose pay to take leave to do this, something we dont want.... also feel its unfair as po app costs £350 in the first place, which we paid double has have twins, dont understand how all these cafcass people seem to do po's so differently? its mad!!


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## nostalgicsam

oh beleive me we've argued with her over and over she won't budge, she has also asked for expenses and agreement form and crb checks and to speak to my hv and my oncology consultant !! I think it's total rubbish how they can all decide to do what they want !


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## NatGamble

Hi Nostalgicsam

Sorry for late reply - it's been manic this week!

You'll be glad to hear she's wrong. The law says that the court can accept evidence of the surrogate's and her husband's consent in any form in writing, and there are no formal requirements for witnessing of signatures. The relevant bit of the law is in Parental Order (Human Fertilisation and Embryology) Regulations 1994 SI 1994/2767 which says:

_Any agreement or consent which is required by section 30 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 to be given to the making of an order or application for an order may be given in writing, and any such written consent shall be admissable in evidence without further proof of the signature of the person by whom it was executed._

In practice, the surrogate parents normally sign and return the C52 form without any witnessing of their signatures. It does sound as if your PO reporter is being a bit over-zealous.

I hope that helps - if you need me to wade in, just let me know.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## nostalgicsam

Thankyou v much Natalie, I thought as much as not heard any other surros who have had to do this....  most surros I know simply signed forms in presence of cafcass reporter, she's so gruff I'm not sure how to tell her this as I fear upsetting her will mena she won't write a good report about us :-( am so sad about it and worried she has our life in her hands....


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## nostalgicsam

Does anyone know what guidelines cafcass actually follow for surrogacy arrangements or should follow? grrr

What exactly is in their remit to 'check'?

Have any couples actually never been granted a PO? and if so on what grounds? What 'clout' dio cafcass have in this sense? To my knowledge they merely have to ensure that couples meet the 'requireents' of being able to be granted a PO i.e. married, living in uk, genetically related to the child etc...

I think it's total pants that cafcass seem to do what they like and every couples experience depends entirely on the po reporter they get landed with, ours is a total nightmare !!


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## ♥JJ1♥

Double donation is not surrogacy its adoption, you would probably get away with an identical twin donating though .  For surrogacy to be surrogacy it has to have at least 1 genetic link, so yes probs with PO etc etc over here.  Double donation can be done over here but is considered adoption and have to get SS clearance first, I think, and NO expenses can be paid ..  As said seek legal advice. 


Natalie are you able to clarify the double donation aspect- and do SS need to be involved beforehand?

L x


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## NatGamble

Hi JJ1

I think I may have missed an earlier thread on this so I'm not sure on all the background.  Basically though, to get a parental order you have to establish that at least one of the applicants is a biological parent, so double donation + surrogacy is problematic as the easiest route for establishing parenthood is not available.

Adoption is in theory an alternative but adoption law is massively complex.  As you say, you'd need to be careful of the rules against payment and of the rules barring privately arranged adoptions without prior authorisation from an approved adoption agency.  There are also lesser legal options which would give some parental status, though not quite the full status you would get with a parental order or adoption.  

A great deal would depend on the particular circumstances, so it's difficult to give a one-size-fits-all answer.  Basically options after surrogacy other than parental orders are largely untested, and you would need to take great care over the legalities if you proceeded knowing that a parental order would not be available.

Natalie


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## nevergiveup1

I wonder whether anyone can help me.

I am going to South Africa to do surrogacy. I am British and also South African and my husband is Irish and British, although he has never applied for a British Passport, he was born and has always lived in the UK. His passport is Irish.

If the treatment works and in South Africa, could I just be recognised as the mother in SA and then apply for a South african Passport and the child would then be my dependant in the UK. Or would it be easier to get an Irish passport? Does Ireland have different surrogacy laws to Britain and South Africa.

I have just read that the child may not be recognised as British, but I dont mind, as my child could be South African as I am too and then be my dependant in Britian??

Can anyone help with this? I am starting the surrogacy in December 2009.


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## Omelette

Hi

I have a question too. Is it still surrogacy and can a parental order be processed if insemination was not artificial ie normal intercourse took place between husband and surrogate? 

O


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## Kitten 80

Hello I'm just posting as I do not no how to green tick  

Kitten


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## NatGamble

Hi Omelette

No - one of the conditions for applying for a parental order is that the child was conceived through artificial insemination or fertility treatment.  If you conceive through intercourse, the rules would not apply and then you would have to look at other option (probably step parent adoption).  

Natalie


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## BubbleMac

Nat - I've been in touch with you separately about having an appt with you to discuss surrogacy, if we decide to go ahead - understanding all legal and other issues.  Thanks for your response and I hope we will be in touch.

I have a question, which probably won't apply to us as IPs (as would go through host surrogacy thus sperm would need to be quarantined), however I wonder if the following is true.  We saw a surrogacy counsellor at Guys this week who said that, as we are unmarried, we could not start any treatment towards surrogacy pre-6 Apr 2010 (given the law changes) without having to get social services involved and the baby being put into care until adoption took place.

Thanks,

BM


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## NatGamble

Nope that's wrong.  Unmarried couples will be able to apply for parental orders as from 6 April 2010, but it doesn't matter when you conceived or when treatment took place (it could even be decades ago).  Provided you apply within six months of the new rules coming into force, you can apply for a parental order.  That means it's absolutely fine to start treatment as soon as you like as an unmarried/ same sex couple and you do not need to wait until 6 April.

Hope that's of reassurance.


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## summer99

Hi Natalie, have found your replies helpful here. I had a failed ivf using my step-sis as surrogate host in june. She is just starting to down/reg again ready to receive 2 embryos this time. 

I have had conflicting info as to what next if she falls pregnant. One doctor told me to get a solicitor? another said ,and this was actually said by someone on a forum too, that once she is 'safely' pregnant, i'e 12wks, then contact the magistrates court for a parental order and they will send you necessary paper work and then once baby is born a parental reporter comes to establish that all is above board and everyone is happy and then a report is given to the courts and then they issue a new birth certificate. 

I am unsure now of exactly what to do if we are successful this time. Is it a good idea to take out some life insurance for her while she is pregnant too?


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## NatGamble

Hi Summer99

What you have been told is broadly right (although I wouldn't rush to contact the magistrates' court just yet, because they are just about to update all the forms for April 2010 and you may well get sent the wrong ones!) and it is up to you whether you involve a solicitor or not.  Many couples do represent themselves in parental order applications, which cannot happen until after your child is born, but many find it useful to at least have a discussion with a solicitor to run through all the issues and what to expect from the process, and to help you ensure that everything goes entirely smoothly.  We work with lots of couples in your position, essentially clarifying the legal side of things and arming you with what you need to deal with the legalities yourselves.

Other issues you may want to consider dealing with are getting life insurance for your surrogate (which many people put in place from the start of treatment for about 2 years) and updating your Wills to cover against any of you dying unexpectedly (which can wait until your surrogate is pregnant).

I hope that's helpful.  Do get in touch if you would like some professional advice on your particular circumstances.  Alternatively, there is a ton of free information available on our website (at www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/surogacy/22/) which you may find helpful.

Best wishes

Natalie
[email protected]


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## Bel

Hi Natalie,

Advice please - My Best friend is now 15 weeks pregnant with our baby as a host surrogate. When do you suggest that we apply to the courts? I see that you mention the forms are to change in April 2010. Our Baby is due in May 2010. Do we have to organize much before the birth, with relation to the parental order? What evidence do we have to provide with regards to us proving the Baby is genetically ours?

Many Thanks,

Bel


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## NatGamble

Hi Bel

Loads of congratulations - you must be really excited. 

The process of applying for a parental order happens after your child is born, and you can't start this pre-birth.  The application forms will be updated as from 6 April next year (to take account of some legal changes) and you will need the new version if your child is born in May.  They are not available yet but will go on our website as soon as they are (www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/surogacy/22/).

As to what you need to do now, it is a good idea for you and your friend to update your Wills to cover against the risk of any of you dying unexpectedly.  Many people also find it helpful to get some advice about the parental order process and what the court are assessing before baby arrives and you have your hands full!  We encourage our clients to represent themselves in the process itself assuming that things are straightforward, but many people like the reassurance of understanding in advance how the process works and what the basic issues are that the court are assessing, so that they can deal with things confidently that there won't be any problems.  We can either take you through that personally, or you can have a read of the free information on our website.

Best of luck with the rest of the pregnancy, and if you would like some personal help with the legal stuff, do let me know.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## Specialkat

Hi Natalie

I am an IP going through straight surrogacy with my best friend.  My husband will be the biological father and I have been reading up on the legal stuff.  Our surrogate and her husband don't have a will.  Do you recommend they get one drawn up?

Thanks

Kerrie


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## NatGamble

Hi Kerrie

It's a good idea, just in case they were to die during the pregnancy (with your child surviving) or in the months before you have your parental order.  Firstly, they can appoint you as legal guardians so that you would acquire parental responsibility for your child automatically on their deaths.  Secondly, they should exclude your child from inheriting from them, since he/she would be included otherwise, and this could prejudice their own children/ other beneficiaries.

Hope that makes sense.

Natalie


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## janesmith488

Hi Nat
Excuse me for asking what might be a silly question but if you do surrogacy abroad in a country that say deals with commercial arrangements and your name automatically goes down on the brith certificate as the parents then why would you need a parental responsibility order?

If you are on the birth certificate then do you just not need the uk embassy in whatever country your in to issue the baby a passport to bring it back to the uk and that's it?

Thanks
Jane


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## NatGamble

Hi Jane

Sadly it's not that simple. English law won't recognise the foreign birth certificate and you still need to apply for a parental order in order to be treated as legal parents under English law (and the application will be much more involved if you have entered into a commercial arrangement and so don't comply with the normal rules on reasonable expenses). One of the big challenges in practice is that your child will be born abroad before you have got all of this sorted out, and this can cause serious issues with your ability to bring your child into the UK since you may not be treated as your child's legal parents (for English immigration and family law purposes) and so your child may not be a British citizen automatically.

There was a landmark case in the High Court in 2008 dealing with this problem (Re X and Y, which Louisa and I in fact acted in, representing the parents) in which twins were born in the Ukraine through surrogacy to British IPs. The twins were born stateless (with no rights to citizenship anywhere in the world) and parentless (because of the conflict between UK and Ukrainian law on who the parents were). We had to petition the Home Office for special permission to bring the children into the UK, and then apply to the High Court for a parental order, which involved authorising the commercial payments made - not an easy exercise.

It's so easy to be lulled into a false sense of security with foreign surrogacy, but the legal problems can be enormous. Please take care.

There's loads more information on this on our website at http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/International-surrogacy-law/36/.

Natalie


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## janesmith488

Thanks Natalie 

Any info is good to know and the more info you have on it the more able we are to deal with it and make the right decisions. 

Your a great help to all these ladies and i'd certainly come to you and recommend you.

Jane


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## NatGamble

Aww thanks Jane - always happy to help where I can.  Best of luck on your journey.


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## guccimama

Hi I need to ask a question?
I have had 6 attempts at IVF, 2 in this country and 4 in the czech republic. The ones abroad have been using donor embryos. I have fell pregnant this way twice but have miscarried on both occasions. My sister has agreed to be a surrogate and we would like to do it the same way with donor embryos from czech.
How would this fit with english law regarding parenting orders? As the baby concieved would be no ones genetically?
Thanks
Guccimama


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## nostalgicsam

Guccimama, I'm so sorry to read of your miscarriages, it is wonderful that your sister has offered to be a surrogate for you, however to get a PO for a surrogacy arrangement, one of the parents must be genetically related to the baby; therefore using a donated embryo with a surrogate would mean it would not be possible for you to get a PO granted, this would be classes as adoption as far as I am aware (a whole new complex ball game) using a donor egg with a surroagte and your husbands/partners sperm would be ok as one of you would be genetially related to the baby. 

I wish you luck on your journey, whatever you decide to do.
Sam


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## NatGamble

Hi Guccimama

Just to echo what Sam has said, which is absolutely right, you need to take enormous care if neither you nor your husband will be your child's biological parent.  There are some legal options available to you (including adoption) to enable you to have the legal authorisation you will need to care for your child, but none designed with surrogacy in mind, so you would need some specialist legal advice on this. We're happy to help if you want to consider this further, or alternatively you might want to consider trying with your eggs or your husband's sperm with your sister as surrogate (in which case no particular complications arise from the Czech conception assuming your sister gives birth in the UK).

Best of luck

Natalie
[email protected]


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## Bel

Hi Nat,

Can I please ask a quick question. My Best friend and Surrogate is due to give birth to our biological child next friday and I know that the law says that my friend and her husband should be registered as our baby's Mother and Father(even though they are not gene related). Then we apply for the parental order. But our midwife seems concerned about this and thinks we should put my husbands name down on the original birth certificate, as he is the natural father (as I am the mother). Would this then cause us a problem when applying for the parental order?

Many Thankss for your help and any other advice gratefully received,

Best Wishes,

Bel


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## ♥JJ1♥

why not pm natalie ff lawyer and good luck with the birth

L


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## crownmum

Hi Bel

Please see the links below:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Birthandadoptionrecords/Registeringorchangingabirthrecord/DG_175617

http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/birthcertificate/27/

If a surrogate is married then her husband must be named on the birth certificate.

If a birth is registered incorrectly it can cause complications when applying for the Parental Order.

Your midwife should be aware of the law on how to register a surrogate birth as there is guidance on surrogacy on the RCM website, see link below, cursor to position paper 18:

http://www.rcm.org.uk/college/standards-and-practice/position-papers/
The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990, Section 27, states that the legal mother is always the surrogate mother regardless of genetic makeup and she is legally responsible for the child until such time as the intended parents adopt or seek a parental order.

The legal father depends upon other factors:

i)	If the surrogate mother is married then her husband is the legal father.

The above paper needs updating as it was last updated in 2005, so I expect it will be updated shortly to reflect the fact the the HFEA Act has recently been updated.

I hope this helps, and good luck with the rest of your journey!


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## Bel

Thank you so much for your reply crownmum. I thought I was right, but you know how you doubt yourselves sometimes!!

Really appreciate your reply.

Love,
Bel,x


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## NatGamble

Hi Bel

Crownmum is quite right - you need to name your friend's husband on the birth certificate.  It does seem a nonsense for everyone involved I know, but it comes out in the wash once you get your post-parental order birth certificate, and will help keep the whole parental order process as straightforward as possible.

Do feel free to point your midwife to our website (www.gambleandghevaert.com) if she wants to check this out.

Best of luck with the birth!

Natalie


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## Bel

Thanks Nat - Really appreciate your reply. I will let you know how the birth goes and will probably be back hassling you with further questions after!!

Love,
Belxx


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## kathcleary

Hi


Wondered if anyone can help me?
After several years of failed IVF we have been really fortunate to have a lovely lady - Sue - decide she wishes to be our surrogate.  We have got to the stage where we have completed the formal agreement through COTS, we've almost finalised our wills, and I've got quotes for life insurance for Sue.....so I thought we were doing all the formal/legal things we need to.
However yesterday we had our first joint appointment at Coventry CRM, and the consultant has told us that they need a copy of our memorandum of wishes, we asked whether they meant the 'agreement' and they said no, this is a document drawn up by lawyers.....I have spoken to COTS and they say we don't need it, but obviously I don't want to hold up Sue's treatment, so I wondered if anyone else had had to do this, and whether they were any samples anywhere.
Thanks for your help


Kath xx


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## firebolt1982

*kathcleary* - We're using Barts in London and we've had to jump through several hoops to reach treatment with them! They wanted us to consult a solicitor and anted proof that we had done so for their records. We told them that we didn't require any legal advice but they were having none of it. We even had Robin from COTS give them a call and they were very rude to him and said they weren't budging! So grudgingly we both saw a solicitor. Mine just provided a signed letter saying that I had met with him. My IP's had an affidavit drawn up. Barts were happy with both my letter and my IPs afiidavit. It was totally pointless! Barts also asked if they could see our agreement from COTS but my IPs refused as they said it was a private document and not relevant to our treatment at Barts and in the end they accepted that. I wouldn't have minded them seeing it but I can see my IP's pov.

Good luck!

Mandy xxx


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## kathcleary

Thanks Mandy....I may try and just give them a copy of the COTS agreement, and also our wills, which also mentions the surrogacy and our intentions, and see if that satisfies!


Kath x


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## NatGamble

Hi Kath

Just thought it would be helpful to add that we often see a lot of confusion from clinics about what exactly they need from patients in surrogacy situations - they know the legal issues can be complicated, but often aren't entirely clear about what the issues are. It's not uncommon, in our experience, for patients to be asked for a 'legal surrogacy agreement'. However, it's not possible under English law to draw up a binding surrogacy agreement, and it is a criminal offence for a lawyer (or any other professional) to draft one. Organisations like COTS can help with the process of drawing up an agreement, and often clinics are reassured to see a COTS agreement - that may do the trick in your case.

What I would say is that it is definitely in your best interests to make sure you are watertight on the legal issues, and the main issue is not your agreement (which is non-binding anyway) but rather whether you will straightforwardly be able to get a parental order. The problem is that if there is a legal problem lurking it probably wouldn't come to light until right at the end of the surrogacy process (by which time it may be too late to do things differently, and you could be in an almighty legal mess - I could quote some horror stories here). The legal process can be completely straightforward and easy to manage if things are set up right, so do make sure you do your homework thoroughly. You might find this helpful: http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/Surrogacyarental-orders-and-other-options/29/

Best of luck

Natalie


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## guccimama

I have a question x 
my sister is going to be our surrogate my husband and I are
married. My sister is married
but has been separated
for four years she has a new partner and in fact a baby to her new partner. Should she get
divorced before she delivers our baby so my husband can be named
on the birth certificate or
does it not matter as she has been separated for so long? My husband is
the biological father but the egg will be from a donor
we would
then be looking in the first instance for
a parental responsibility order for
me . Does this sound right?


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## NatGamble

Hi Guccimama

If your sister is married at the time of conception (rather than birth) her husband will be your child's legal father at birth, unless it is shown he did not consent to the conception.  In an ideal world it would be best if she was divorced before she conceives, as her husband then has no involvement in things at all.  If this is not possible you will need to think about how you 'show' that he did not consent (which may be by way of a legal statement or other evidence).  Otherwise, the court may want to involve him in things and to seek his consent to your parental order.

You and your husband should apply for a parental order within six months of the birth - a parental responsibility order is something else entirely.

Best of luck

Natalie


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## tisonlyme

Hi,

I'm just posting with a query regarding surrogacy as myself and dh are starting to gather information before we start on the journey.
The question is regarding dh.  His parents are british but they lived in ireland for a while where he was born and he has an irish passport, but he has lived here since they moved back when he was about 3.

Is this going to be a problem when it comes to surrogacy law.

Thanks
Charlotte


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## nostalgicsam

Hi Charlotte 

to obtain a PO IP's must meet the following criteria:

You must both be over 18 and must be married or living together, One of you must be genetically related to the child and One of you must be domiciled in a part of the UK

As only one of you has to be domiciled here in the UK I think you meet the requirements, though I'm sure others and Nat will confirm
Sam


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## tisonlyme

thanks sam

you are being a star!


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## nostalgicsam

my pleasure


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## NatGamble

Hi Charlotte

It sounds like you'll be fine.  Like Sam says, you only need one of you to  be domiciled in a part of the UK, but your husband may well be in any case.  Domicile relates to where you have your permanent home and attachments, which is a bit of a tricky question sometimes and doesn't always relate to where you are living.  If your husband is based in the UK permanently, with no intention of living in Ireland or anywhere else, he is likely to be domiciled here irrespective of the history.

Hope that reassures

Natalie


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## molly777

Hi Natalie

I hope you can help me, I'm originally for the south of Ireland but now living in Northern Ireland and my Husband is from Northern Ireland we both have Irish passports, basically do you know what the law is with surrogacy in NI, if you could help in any way it would be greatly appreciated, its really hard to find out any info and when they referr to the uk on the net I'm not sure this includes NI....

Thank you in advance

Molly


----------



## Snowdrop10

Hello
I wondered is there any chance do you think surrogacy laws will be changed? I am a widow, desperate to have a baby (hopefully my own) but keep having miscarriages. I just found out single women/widows are discriminated against by law re surrogacy...I cant believe it..


----------



## Bluemorpho23

Hi Natalie

I am unsure if my husband and I would be classed as Domiciled in the UK?

We are both british and both born in the UK, we still have property in the UK (our former homes) and intend to return in the future (unspecified time though). We have been living in Singapore for nearly 5yrs, I am classed as a Permanent Resident here, my husband is still here on an Employment Pass (ie not Permanent Resident) but he has his own business here.

Surrogacy is illegal in Singapore, so I am not sure how we would make it work..currently we are having IVF treatment in the US so that's where our frozen embryo is! If we were to go down the surrogacy route I am not sure if it could work legally.

Any advice gratefully appreciated.

Morph


----------



## Jaq

Hi Natalie

I am asking this on behalf of a friend. I was just wondering if you have come across IP couples who have separated before their surro baby has been born? Can the IM still take the baby home? And would she have to get a residence order and maybe a special guardianship if that were possible? Obviously I am hoping they can sort things out before the baby arrives and be the family they always wanted to be, but that might not happen. Can you help?

Many thanks
Jaq


----------



## frily

Hi Natalie,

i hope you could help me. we are a married couple residing in UK for the last 6 years. My husband have a French passport and i received a permanent residence card for the UK as a family member. we have our home here (we own a flat) and we live and work here. Unfortunately all our treatment so far failed or ended up in miscarriage (including several ED treatment) we are considering now to go for surrogacy but wanted to know if in our situation (Considering  we do not have UK passports) we can do it here or not.

thank you


----------



## NatGamble

Hi frilly

You will need to get some advice as to whether you are 'domiciled' here or not.  It's not a clear cut or easy question to answer, and will depend on a review of all your circumstances.  Domicile cases can be very complex, since every case is individual, so it's important to ensure you will meet the criteria for getting a parental order before you embark on things.

Natalie


----------



## D&amp;P

Jaq said:


> Hi Natalie
> 
> I am asking this on behalf of a friend. I was just wondering if you have come across IP couples who have separated before their surro baby has been born? Can the IM still take the baby home? And would she have to get a residence order and maybe a special guardianship if that were possible? Obviously I am hoping they can sort things out before the baby arrives and be the family they always wanted to be, but that might not happen. Can you help?
> 
> Many thanks
> Jaq


Jaq, the ramifications of a couple splitting up (or one of you being involved in a fatal accident) before a parental order has been granted, unfortunately, mean neither the IM or IF can apply alone for a parental order as the criteria states you have to be a couple.

If the surro is not married then the IF can be put on the birth certificate. If the surro is married then the IF will have to apply to get the birth certificate changed (as the surro's spouse will be named) and acquire parental responsibility (although the surrogate mother won't have her parental rights/responsibilities officially extinguished).

Likewise, the IM will have to apply to get the birth certificate changed and acquire parental responsibility if this was a gestational surrogacy. If this was a traditional surrogacy, then the IM should seek specialist legal advice as she isn't genetically related to the child.

I wondered how long it would be before we sadly saw cases like this happening. It should make all us IPs pause for thought. I really hope Natalie Gamble and Louisa Ghevaert persevere in getting the surrogacy laws changed to include single people as soon as possible.

Stuart


----------



## Jaq

Thanks Stuart for your reply. It is worrying for my friend - we were so lucky in our surrogacy journey that everything went very smoothly.
If anyone else (Natalie?) can give any more advice I'd be very grateful.

Thanks
Jaq


----------



## D&amp;P

Agree Jaq, hopefully Natalie can elaborate a bit further. I'd also be interested (from both a IF and IM perspective if they are different) of what legal applications are necessary to secure single parents position after surrogacy and the likely costs involved.

There is a webpage on Gamble and Ghevaert regarding surrogacy for single men and women:

http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/Surrogacy-for-single-people/76/


----------



## Charlypops

Can anyone help with double donor surrogacy. Long story but my friend wants to be a surrogate for us but we can't use my eggs or husband sperm as they don't work. We can get donor embryos from Czech republic. I understand we can't get a parental order but how can we adopt the baby. Do we have to be approved as adopters and go through that long process?  Or can she just choose us as the adopted parents and hand over the baby to us. Any help please as the Internet doesn't say much. 

Thanks Charlotte. X


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

Charlotte I was hoping something similar may be possible but I don't think it is as my understanding is that it is illegal in uk to create a baby for the purpose of adoption, and I think one of you has to be genetically linked to the baby fir a parental order. But I sure natalie Ff lawyer will be along to advise. 
Good luck


----------



## NatGamble

Hi guys

Sorry I've been absent for a bit and so slow in replying.

There are real difficulties for surrogacy where you don't meet the parental order criteria (either because you are not a couple or because neither of you is a bio parent).  Legally, the only comparable alternative is adoption since it is the only other court order which permanently and fully reassigns legal parenthood.  However, adoption and surrogacy are not a good mix, not least because adoption law was designed for very different purposes and contains criminal offences relating to payment, privately arranged adoptions and crossing international borders.  To date, there is no precedent of adoption having successfully been used as an alternative to a parental order in a surrogacy situation, and though it is in theory possible, whether the court would be willing to do this is untested.

In terms of process, there will always need to be a local authority/adoption agency investigation, and you cannot just arrange things yourselves.  You may well need full vetting, depending on the circumstances.  The legal position will also be very specific to the particular situation, since a great many factors will have an impact on the question of who the parents are without a court order, and who has parental responsibility (whether the surrogate is married, who the bio parents are, whether the applicant is IM or IF, whether the child is born in the UK or abroad etc).

I have no doubt that at some point the court will need to tackle these issues, but it hasn't happened yet.  Another reason why surrogacy law needs updating....

Natalie


----------



## D&amp;P

NatGamble said:


> To date, there is no precedent of adoption having successfully been used as an alternative to a parental order in a surrogacy situation, and though it is in theory possible, whether the court would be willing to do this is untested.
> 
> [...]
> 
> I have no doubt that at some point the court will need to tackle these issues, but it hasn't happened yet. Another reason why surrogacy law needs updating....


What a complete mess.  So there is no precedent of adoption having successfully been used as an alternative to a parental order in a surrogacy situation. So anyone who splits up (or one of you is involved in a fatal accident) before a parental order has been granted is legally left high and dry.

In terms of the IF, obviously he can simply be put on the birth certificate if the surro is not married. Natalie, if the surro is married/civil partnered can the IF still be put on the birth certificate, when registering, if the surro's spouse obviously knows he's not the bio father and legitimately objects to being put on the certificate? Surely this would be similar to cases where a married mother has an extramarital affair which result in a child and the bio father, rather than the spouse, is explicitly registered on the birth cert? Or is this at the discretion of the registration department?

Imagine how complex some of these surrogacy arrangements are. I can think of a case a little similar to ♥JJ1♥ where, with the help of an egg donor, a single IF wants to have a child using a gestational surrogate. The law is untested whether he would be granted a parental order with the help of the actual egg donor (although she is married herself) to be able to officially extinguish the gestational surrogate's parental rights/responsibilities as they would both meet the criteria of being genetically related to the child but wouldn't presumably qualify as being considered living in an 'enduring family relationship'? So the IF can acquire parental rights/responsibilities if he is named on the birth cert and if the gestational surrogate is unmarried but the gestational surrogate's parental rights/responsibilities cannot be removed and replaced (if wanted) by the actual egg donor who is his friend no matter that she would be genetically related to the child!

Presumably if the courts start to come across some of these issues then the existing surrogacy law will have to be amended?


----------



## Charlypops

Thanks Natalie sorry to ask again but does that mean it's a "no" for double donor surrogacy then?


----------



## nostalgicsam

Sadly it's a no, "double donor" isn't surrogacy as neither IP is genetically related to the child and the criteria for the granting of a PO cannot be met.


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349487/Surrogate-mother-changed-mind-allowed-baby.html

Did anyone see this? I know it is the Daily mail!,


----------



## sars3dd

Hi Natalie (or anyone else) 
I am in Scotland and looking to become a surrogate for the first time.  However, I have noticed that alot more IP's live in England.  
Now i know the laws after different either side of the border and noticed that in Scotland the biological IP father can have his name on the birth certificate as the father and i would be down as the mother even though i am married.  this would then leave the IP mother to apply for step parent adoption.

would the same be if i was a host surrogate using the IP's egg and sperm?  

Sarah x


----------



## Roobee

Hi Natalie,

I don't know if your area of expertise extends to dealing with issues surrounding the import of DEs from U.S.A., I have posted the questions I have on another section of this Bulletin Board -

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=260673.0

I would be grateful if you could give me any advice you may have.

Many thanks in advance.
R


----------



## Scooby37

Hi my cousin has just offered to be a surrogate using her eggs and my husbands sperm.  Just trying to find out information.
Can anyone help regarding maternity leave. Her work have said she can take unpaid leave for a couple of months then she presumed I could have the matb1 to ask my employer if they would give me maternity leave. Is this right? Or does she have to take maternity leave as if it were her own baby? We have agreed to make sure she is not out of pocket either way. My husband is worried about how tax and NI will be paid.
Can anyone advise on where to get wills and life insurance from too?
Is there anything else financially I need to be thinking about?


----------



## justineb

I have investigated surrogacy as a potential route - and I am on the surrogacy Uk forum (though we are currently cycling again). As far as I know you would not be eligible for maternity leave (your cousin would be as the birth mother), but you could ask your employer to grant you adoption leave on a discretionary basis (some employers do this).

Goodluck


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

Legally as well adoption leave isn't automatic & you'd be negotiating something ad hoc with your employer-  as you don't have the matching panel papers to submit to an employer. There is a minimum amount of mat leave that a birth mother needs to take for physical recovery. I'm not sure how it could work with regard to a birth mother & father now being ableto share mat leave entitlement? Maybe Natalie or one of the ff hr could advise if the father could take share this with the surrogate?


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi

If your sister carries a pregnancy for you using a donated embryo this will be legally problematic.  To be eligible for a parental order (the English legal solution for surrogacy you or your partner would need to be biologically conncted to the child).  You should obtain expert legal advice before you start to see what (if any) legal options are available.

LouGhevaert


----------



## winky77

Hi All....

Just wondering if anyone has an opinion on or experience of what a good employer should be doing leave and pay wise if they have employees using a surrogate?  I know the law doesn't give any rights to pay or leave for IPs but what would you think a good employer should do for the IM and/or IF in their employment?  I am interested to hear of people's own experiences of their employers plus also any legal opinion from Natalie? 

..Winky


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

I personally think that they should give the same consideration as they would do for adoption, so as we aren't physically giving birth we wouldn't need to give up to rest weeks before the birth- as in adoption- but there is still a child, or in this case baby needing care. If you google it you will see the debates! I see Plymouth council give time off for ivf and 6 weeks paid and 6 weeks unpaid surrogacy leave.
Something but not everything. Parents are entitled to 13 weeks parental leave.


----------



## winky77

Thanks JJ.  Hope you're doing OK?  I keep up with the SMC stories of the old crowd through ******** mostly.....feel bit out of sync with the group on here now. 

..Winky


----------



## NatGamble

Decent employers will give leave equivalent to adoption/maternity leave (and a growing number have specific policies for surrogacy which says they do) but it's all discretionary and there are no legal rights sadly.  It's also difficult for smaller employers since they can't claim any money back from the government. This is something that makes me so cross   .  

Natalie


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi

I wanted to announce the launch of my practice's new multi-media fertility and parenting law website- www.porterdodsonfertility.com. It contains lots of really helpful information about UK and international surrogacy, articles, video and social media too. It's free and user-friendly so do have a look.

All the best

LouGhevaert

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## frily

first of all thank you for all the information you have on this website its really helpful.
My husband and myself will need to get help of surrogate to create our family.
We are both originally from other nationalities but we have been living in UK for over 7 years and both have British citizenship and British passports now.
Can there still be issues of domicile in this case?

Thank you


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Frily

It's something you'll need to check, but if you have a permanent home in the UK and don't intend to go back to your country of origin, you may well have acquired a domicile status here and so be eligible to apply for a parental order. Domicile relates, not to where you are living, but to where your permanent roots are, but it's often a complicated question because everyone's situation is different and the court will take into account all your personal circumstances - there isn't just a simple checklist to confirm whether you are UK domiciled or not. There's some more information about domicile that you may find useful at

http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/international-surrogacy-law
and if you want some particular advice, do feel free to contact us.

Natalie

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## Alesiya

Dear Nat .

I have a question regarding surrogacy abroad.

Me and my husband are not UK citizens but have ILR. We want to have a baby through surrogate mother in Ukraine or India. As I understood that we will get childs birth certificate with our names written as parents. 

Then we will apply for Indian passport for a baby in Indian consulate in Ukraine as my husband is an Indian national.
Next-> Can we then come to British embassy and apply for childs entry visa? Do we also need to have Parental order or it does not apply for non British citizens? I dont want to mention anything about surrogacy anywhere.
Does my baby born abroad has right to get ILR as my dependant based on fact that whole family have this type of visa?(we are-me, my husband and 2 our children, 1 born in Kazakstan, 1 born in UK).

What happens when we all apply for British citizenship?(we have a right to do so) do we have to get Parental order for all our children born abroad? 

Im all confused, please help


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Alesiya

I am not at all surprised you are confused - the law on this is really complicated. Essentially, there are two completely separate issues here: 1) your child's nationality and immigration status and 2) your position as the parents (and the need for a parental order).

On the nationality side, your child will not be automatically British at birth if you are not and you will then need an appropriate entry clearance visa to be able to enter the UK. The correct route to follow will depend on your precise status as well as your surrogate's marital status and the policy of the British Embassy (in either the Ukraine or India). I would recommend specialist immigration advice on this as it isn't straightforward, and it is important to have a plan before you go ahead so you can be sure you will be able to get home safely. I can let you have details of some immigration lawyers who would be able to help if you PM me. The alternative is for you to secure your British nationality first (which might be a good idea if you have a right to get this now) and, subject to conceiving with a single surrogate, your baby will then be born British and entitled to come home (subject to proving your surrogate's marital status, husband's paternity and your British nationality to the relevant embassy).

On the parentage side, to get a parental order you will need to satisfy the court that you are 'domiciled' here (which is a more complex question based on all the facts of your situation and whether you are permanently settled in the UK - whether or not you are British citizens does not answer this question in itself although may be a factor). If you are not eligible to apply for a parental order, then you will need to consider alternative orders (probably a special guardianship order) to secure your right to care for your child in the UK, since UK law will not automatically recognise you as the parents. There is more info on domicile etc on our surrogacy law pages on our website which might help with this, or do get in touch if you would like some more specific advice on your circumstances.

I hope that makes some sense - I realise it's all quite tricky and technical!

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## Alesiya

Dear Nat,

thank you for reply.

1.Can you tell me if I dont want to say that my child was born through surrogate mother what will happen? I have uterus and may be came to Ukraine to have a baby . How British consulate comes to know about birth details?

2. My older son was born in Kazakstan and has Kazakstan birth certificate. Does it mean that in UK  by law I am not recognaised as legal parent?

Thank you for your help


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Alesiya

The position is legally different if you gave birth, so you will be treated as your son's legal mother even though he was born abroad.  In respect of a possible surrogate child, you will have to declare to various authorities that you are the 'mother' of a child born abroad (if you do not want to disclose the surrogacy) and this will not be true according to UK law if your child is born through surrogacy.  This could be a breach of the law, particularly in relation to immigration, and could be very problematic.

I hope that clarifies.

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## Alesiya

NatGamble said:


> Hi Alesiya
> 
> The position is legally different if you gave birth, so you will be treated as your son's legal mother even though he was born abroad. In respect of a possible surrogate child, you will have to declare to various authorities that you are the 'mother' of a child born abroad (if you do not want to disclose the surrogacy) and this will not be true according to UK law if your child is born through surrogacy. This could be a breach of the law, particularly in relation to immigration, and could be very problematic.
> 
> I hope that clarifies.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Natalie


Thank you so much!!! You really helped!

Hugs and best wishes.


----------



## whitecasts

HI 

I wonder if you can give me a bit of advice about parental orders. I'm currently 8 wks pregnant as a host Surrogate for my brother and his wife. I got pregnant with embryo's made from my brother's sperm and a donor egg at the Reprofit clinic in Czech republic.  I am a UK citizen and obviously live in the uk. However my brother's wife is from New Zealand and both my brother and his wife currently live in NZ. My brother has lived there for 5.5 years and he has citizenship and residency there. However he also maintains a British Passport and owns a home in the UK.

I am assuming that because of this there is no chance that they would be able to use the parental order to have legal custody of the child and would probably have to go down the adoption route or  because I have actually never married my partner my brother could be put down as the legal father??

Is this the only way we could legally ensure that they had the right to take the baby as their own? I'm asking because my brother is definitely being a bit slow getting the legal ball rolling and I worry they may get caught out!


Thanks. Any advice on this matter would be really appreciated


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Whitecasts

It sounds like you probably need to think through both the UK and New Zealand legal issues, and make a plan.

You will go on the birth certificate as the mother if the baby is born in the UK.  Your brother can go on the birth certificate as the father if he attends the birth registration with you and if (as you say) you are not married.  He will then share parental responsibility with you for UK legal purposes.

Your brother and sister in law could potentially apply for a parental order in the UK court (to extinguish your position and give motherhood to your sister in law).  They are only eligible if your brother remains domiciled here, which he might on the basis of what you say, though I would need a lot more info to say with more certainty.  That would ultimately give them a UK birth certificate with both their names on it.

However, if the family plan to be based in New Zealand, they ought to check whether a UK parental order will be recognised there.  If not, then, even if they could apply for a parental order here, it might be better for them to follow some other legal process under New Zealand law to secure their position and yours.  

If this involves an adoption, you do need to take care, since it is a criminal offence to remove a child from the UK for the purposes of adoption abroad unless you have followed certain procedures first.

It sounds like a brilliant thing you are doing for your brother, but probably a good idea to get some advice to make sure you can sort out the legals without getting caught out.

Hope you're feeling ok and all is well with the pregnancy.

Natalie


----------



## whitecasts

Thank you Natalie,

I'm sending your reply on to my brother and hopefully it will at least give a place to start. Thanks


----------



## sarahinfrance

Hi Nathalie,

Could you please advise me on the following. I am British and my husband is French. We are residents in France where surrogacy performed on French soil is illegal. People get around this by going abroad to use a surrogate but then often struggle to get citizenship for the baby. This is why we were thinking of using a surrogate (private or via clinic) in the UK basing our thoughts on the fact that the baby will be born British, therefore able to have a British passport and able to travel with us from the UK back home to France. Is this enough to take a baby back home? My husband will be the father, would the mother be able to give up her parental rights to him and then would he be able to leave the UK with his baby (perhaps as we are in the EU)? Being British, how would I adopt a British baby in France....we already have an adoption agreement in France for 1 or 2 childrern under the age of 2, but would need to amend this to "adopting my husband's baby". If all the above is not possible, how long to we need to live in England for before we could use a surrogate and legally adopt my French husband's baby.

The final solution is to silently find a surrogate in France (this happens too despite being illegal, people are so desperate), and for me to adopt the child. I prefer to find a legal way to do this in the UK.

Lots of questions I know, but if you could give an idea of whether this is feasible and then I can contact your firm for a more indepth discussion.

Many thanks!

SarahInFrance


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Sarah

I'm sure there's a way through this for you, but it will need some careful planning. If you are British, you may well still be domiciled in the UK and if so, you and your husband would be able to do surrogacy in the UK (or elsewhere in the world) and apply for a parental order in the UK. That would ultimately give you a British birth certificate naming you as the parents, and would give your child British nationality (if your surrogate is British, your child would be British from birth anyway). With British nationality, living in France should not be a problem, even if you can't get French nationality for your child. That's probably the best Plan A, and I would recommend getting legal advice on French and English law to flesh things out in more detail, check your domicile status and get an action plan in place. We've dealt with quite a few applications for British parents living abroad, so it's definitely possible but you do need to be sure you are still domiciled here. There's some more information on our website about this which you might find helpful (see http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/intsurrogacy/37/).

If you are not domiciled in the UK, then things may be more complicated since a parental order won't be available to you. You are then probably looking primarily at a French adoption solution, and how you set things up may make a significant difference to how that works. It may also make a difference as to where you do your surrogacy - there may be other destinations which are more viable than the UK in these circumstances.

It's such a shame things are so difficult in France (and Germany, and Spain, and Italy.......). If we can help you find a solution, we would be really happy to.

Natalie


----------



## Shabib

Hi Nat,

Am actually have some inquiries regarding surrogacy in Cyprus under the EU, am from Egypt as well as my husband,we are both Egyptians,and surrogacy is illegal in our country, I have been told by the clinic that I will not face any problems while issuing the legal documents from our embassy in Cyprus and that we can take the baby safely out of Cyprus! As they work under the EU legislation! And they also said i dont have to take permission from the embassy in egypt.But I need to be sure of that.can you please advise? And what is theEU rules.

Thank you so much


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Shabib
I am sorry but I can only advise in detail on English/ British law.  You will need to seek advice from a lawyer with an understanding of family and immigration law in Egypt, and do get this rather than relying on what the destination clinic is telling you.
Loads of luck
Natalie


----------



## rolney

Natalie - it's a long time since I've been on Fertility Friends as life was quite difficult after several failed IVF attempts.  I just wanted to say, that we came to you for advice in 2011 regarding surrogacy, both overseas and UK.  Your advice was invaluable and, coupled with a lucky conversation with a friend of friend, we joined COTS this time last year.  We are now expecting our baby with a wonderful surrogate/now friend in August 2012 and couldn't be happier.  I wanted to say, on this forum, how constructive, structured and warm you and your team's support was and it firmly placed us on the route to surrogacy, in a minefield of information and misinformation.  Thank you.  Rosalyn


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Rosalyn

Your post has made my day   I am so happy things have worked out for you, and loads of luck with the birth.  I am so glad we were able to help you on your path.

Very best wishes from everyone here, who says hi!


----------



## eggtastic

Hi - does anyone know if the laws are changing regarding surrogacy in India? I read in this article that lasw are going to change in order to block uk ips from doing surrogacy in India

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9292343/Revealed-how-more-and-more-Britons-are-paying-Indian-women-to-become-surrogate-mothers.html


----------



## Scooby37

hi  we are about to become parents through surrogacy and just wanted a bit of advice. The surrogate is my cousin using her eggs and my husbands sperm. Do both their names go on the birth certificate or does it have to be her husband?  Had conflicting answers.  Is the process we register the birth then apply for the parental order. Does anyone know a time limit on this as my employer is asking?  Also how do you know which court to apply at - i have tried my local magistrates who said it wasn't them.  sorry so many questions.


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Scooby

The birth certificate has to record your surrogate as the mother and her husband as the father, initially. You then apply for a parental order and, once granted, the birth certificate gets reissued in the names of you and your husband.

You have to apply for the parental order within six months of the birth (which just means getting your application lodged with the court), but the process itself may take some time to go through.

You can apply to any Family Proceedings Court (which is a magistrates' court which hears family applications) although most parents apply locally to them. Parental orders are still relatively unusual so we often find people get given incorrect information by the court initially - you may have contacted the right court even if they don't know it!

There's loads more info about parental orders and how to apply on our website at http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/poprocess/31/ which you may find helpful.

Good luck with it - the process should be really straightforward.

Natalie


----------



## JemmyB

Hi Natalie

I have been wondering about the outcome of a case I read about from 2006 where a woman refused to give twins to their natural parents after she changed her mind about the surrogacy agreement.  The children were genetically the couples who were of Indian origin if I remember rightly.  

Was the outcome of the legal action the couple took against the surrogate unsuccessful?  I have noticed from your website that the surrogate can withhold consent to allow natural parents to become the legal parents of their child.  

I am hoping to find a surrogate after several failed IVF attempts, but I am worried about it going wrong and need to be fully informed before embarking on this route....

Many thanks


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Jemmy

To my knowledge, there are only two published cases of 'custody disputes' between surrogate mothers and intended parents (in the first the court gave care to the IPs, in the second to the surrogate mother). In my experience, both were exceptionally unusual. You can read the full transcripts on our website here (and I would trust these over and above any media coverage!): http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/Surrogacy-disputes/90/

I completely understand your anxiety - the vast majority of parents we work with feel exactly the same - but in fact the incidences of surrogacy arrangements going wrong are incredibly rare. From my own personal experience, I can tell you that we have dealt with hundreds of surrogacy arrangements and have never yet had a case where the surrogate has tried to keep the baby. I think it's an issue which can feel incredibly scary at the early stages, but once you have found a surrogate and built a relationship with her, it becomes much less of a concern. Surrogate mothers don't go into these arrangements because they want a baby, and as long as you look after each other, are honest and give each other the respect you each deserve, you are very very unlikely to have any problems.

I hope that's of reassurance. I'm sure the ladies here will echo what I have said.

Natalie


----------



## eggtastic

A question for Natalie,

Hello - I was wondering if you have had any experience with IPs trying to get baby back to UK from Georgia?  Is it any easier than bringing baby back from India?

E x


----------



## NatGamble

Hi F

We've had a few clients looking at Georgia (though none who have completed the process yet).  On the assumption that it's comparable to the Ukraine, it may well be quicker to get back, but not necessarily easier as the Embassy will have dealt with fewer applications than India.  A lot depends on the surrogate's marital status too, as I'm sure you know.

Natalie


----------



## Scooby37

Hi I wrote on page 8 I think when we were starting surrogacy. Well we now have a baby girl which is a dream come true. Just thought I would give you and update and advice on things that have happened to us sorry if this isn't the right forum. 
At the hospital despite having it in our notes about it being a surrogacy we had to supply a solicitors name to confirm our story. Even though I have read you don't need one fortunately my friend is one so she confirmed what we were saying was correct. She also reported us to a unit I forget what it was called but it was to do with the safeguarding of the child! The midwife wouldn't hand the baby to me but said she would pass it to the birth mother. Neither of us wanted that so she didn't hand the baby to either of us but took her away to be cleaned then passed her to me. She then wrote in our notes that skin to skin contact wasn't wanted.
Work well there is a story. I worked for an academy. Told them at 12 weeks about the baby included various policies. They said they wouldn't write a policy. The principal however kept telling me to wait and we would keep talking. September I was asked to advertise my job as they would give me adoption leave. The Friday before my daughter was born on the Wednesday they changed their minds and I was told after using my annual leave I would have to go back full time.  That would have meant me going back when my daughter was 1 month old. I had no choice but to hand in my notice.  To say how disgraceful I feel this was is an understatement. 
So for anyone in a similar position make sure you get everything in writing and make sure the hospital are fully aware as well. I know the law is slowly changing so hope that no one has to go through anything like we have had to.


----------



## Firefly369

Hi there

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice? 

My DH and I are both British but live in Italy (I have done for nearly 12 years and him for 8yrs). We own a property here and both have full time jobs here. We are in the process of trying donor IVF but I have issues with my womb and so we are looking into whether or not surrogacy may be an option for us in the future. I've read a little about it and I'm guessing that it is unlikely that we are domiclled in the UK as we have lived abroad so long? Italy does not allow surrogacy so I expect that if we wanted to go ahead we would have to move back to the UK. Does anyone have an idea of how long we would have to be back in the UK before we would be considered domicilled? Both our families are in England, our only ties to Italy are our jobs. I teach in an International school and my husband is a translator. If we needed to move back to the UK we would do but it will be hard for my husband to get a similar job in the UK and we would also need to sell our house which takes time over here... Any advice welcome.

Thank you xx


----------



## Angels4Me

Hi, 

I wonder if someone could answer a question please, can an unmarried couple apply for parental order for surro baby? (baby is Intended father but not biologically Intended mothers 

Hope someone can clarify for me

Thank you 
Angels x


----------



## Hulkster_89

Angels4me and unmarried couple can apply for a parental order.


----------



## HEC

Hello Firefly

I will PM you now.


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Angels4me - yes, unmarried couples have been able to apply for a parental order since 6 April 2010 (you have to be living together as partners in an enduring family relationship)


Firefly - do be careful of the laws in Italy (they are pretty nasty on surrogacy) but if you move back to the UK you should not have too much difficulty establishing a domicile here, if this is where you are from originally.  This is because you are born with a domicile of origin and it stays with you for life - you can supersede it with a domicile of choice if you move to a new country, but if you abandon that domicile, then your original domicile reverts immediately.  In other words, if you were born in the UK you are likely to be considered domiciled here the moment you get back.


We have just won a case on domicile for parents who had not long moved to the UK (and they weren't even from here originally) and there is some more info on this here which you may find of interest www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/blog/2013/03/15/international-surrogacy-–-uk-high-court-judge-awards-parenthood-to-non-british-gay-dads/

Best wishes


Natalie


----------



## duffy7

We are in Scotland and using a family member as our surrogate but need to write wills for her and us....is this easy enough to do by ourselves or will we need a lawyer?

Has anyone done this themselves?

Thanks in advance


----------



## eggtastic

Hello Nat,

Thanks for your responce a while back.  I am wondering, do you know anything about the law in Georgia - as in can the surrogate change her mind and keep the baby?  I know that in India this cannot happen... 

I feel a little torn as in there are not many experiences that I can read up on about Georgia as a destination for surrogacy... There are loads on India, but the situation there does sacre me quite a bit what with safety for women etc...


----------



## NatGamble

Hi eggtastic

I'm afraid I don't know much about the law in Georgia.  In the Ukraine and Russia there is some legal framework for treating the intended parents as the legal parents from the outset (so that the surrogate has no parental status).  It may well be similar in Georgia, but I haven't yet dealt with a Georgian case to say for certain.  Sorry not to be more helpful.

I think the reason less information is available is probably that it is not as common a destination for surrogacy as India etc.  As with any foreign surrogacy, it's always good advice to do your homework thoroughly, and bear in mind if Georgia does not have a lot of experience that there may well be problems and pitfalls which haven't yet been tested.

Natalie


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi eggtastic

I wanted to say that I have some limited experience of the legal issues associated with surrogacy in Georgia.

Georgia is a relatively new state, following its independence from the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s and the period of civil unrest that followed until 2003. Surrogacy is emerging as a practice there and overall there are a number of additional challenges in terms of getting to grips with the legal reality in Georgia and accessing specialist legal advice about this (in addition to the legal issues usually encountered with an international surrogacy arrangement).

If you would like further guidance on the legal front do feel free to get in touch with me.

Best of luck

Louisa


----------



## eggtastic

Thankyou to both of you.  It does not fill me with confidence.. maybe India is a better destination after all.


----------



## selene78

Hello Ladies,
I am doing surrogacy program in Georgia. And before I decided to go ahead I asked my brother (law master degree) to search for some information about the law regulations. He found english versions of Civil code of Georgia and Health Law - and checked it for me. If you are interested I have the files with that on my computer and can send it to you. Of course there might be some regulations that we didn't found, but this two made us decide to work with agency in Tbilisi.
And as I know surrogate mother is not recognized as a mother of the baby. And IP's names are in Birth Certificate.
Kate


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Selene

That would be great if you have a moment to send whatever you have through ([email protected]) - always keen to expand our knowledge.

Loads of luck with your journey in Tbilisi.  Isn't that where Stalin came from?!

Natalie


----------



## selene78

Hi Nat, I just send you thos documents via mail And Stalin was Georgian, but from Gorje (Gori) 
Kate


----------



## NatGamble

Great - thanks Kate.  It's a long time since my A-Levels


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi Selene

It's great news you've sourced this information. I'd be really interested to read this and share this with others in future.

Please do send this to me - my email address is [email protected].

I wish you all the luck in the world with your surrogacy journey.

Best wishes

Louisa


----------



## Vespa1

Hello

Im just wondering if anyone has experience with parental orders when the mother, father and surrogate are DOMICILED OUTSIDE the UK.

I have read much on this topic but find nothing on parental orders for British nationals domiciled outside the UK

If I understand the process correctly:
-	You need to get the surrogate to consent to a parental order - this is in the form of a legal document where she acknowledges her rights and freely undertakes to handover those rights to the intended parent(s). 
- The consent must be given no less than 6 weeks after birth (per the Human Embryology Fertilisation Act)
- During this time, you should not take the child out of the country of birth (recommended by British High Commission)
-	With a proper consent you can then apply to the High Court for a parental order
-	A parental order can only be issued by the High Court and must be applied for within six months of the birth, with no exceptions. 
-	The order establishes unequivocally that one or both of the intended parents (have parental responsibility, and also allows the birth certificate to be changed, reflecting the names of the intended parents, without the surrogate being mentioned. There is currently no other way to have a birth certificate changed in this manner.

Requirements
- Intended parents are married
- Consent signed after 6 weeks after birth (min)
- Submission to high court before 6 months after birth (max timeframe)
-	you should be able to demonstrate that you have paid your reasonable share of expenses
- You should be domicled in the UK / Isle of Man, Channel Islands

We have the situation where:
- Both of the intended parents hold a valid british passport
- Both intended parents are resident OUTSIDE the UK
- The surrogate holds a non-UK passport and is also domiciled OUTSIDE the UK

Does anyone have any experience with getting a parental order when not DOMICILED in the UK?
Is it possible and what is the process?
Is there a broad definition of domicile that can be used in such cases?

Vespa


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi Vespa

I've worked with lots of people resident outside the UK who are working with foreign surrogates over the last few years.

The concept of domicile is legally complex and there are many cases dealing with this issue. Your domicile status, for the purposes of a parental order application, is to do with your permanent roots and connections. It's possible, in some circumstances, to be resident abroad but still domiciled in a part of the UK, Isle of Man or Channel Islands. The legal test is subjective and not objective and each case is looked at on a fact specific basis by the English Court. The fact that you and your partner both hold British passports is a step in the right direction (but not in itself determinative of your domicile status). It's also the domicile status of you and your partner which is relevant for the purposes of a parental order application and not that of your surrogate.

You'd be well advised to obtain specialist legal advice to assess you and your partner's domicile status carefully, the associated legal implications and how best to present your case in court. If you are held not to have a domicile in a part of the UK, Isle of Man or Channel Islands your parental order application will fail and you'll be at risk of a significant costs order being made against you by the English Court. The English Court will want to satisfy itself that you have met the domicile criteria and this can involve complex additional legal proceedings in court depending upon your situation and the information and evidence you provide. If you handle this carefully and thoroughly from the outset, it can help to smooth the passage of your application through the Court and maximise your chances of a a successful outcome.

There are various other matters referred to in your post which ideally require further explanation and clarification from a legal perspective (relating to both legal eligibility and process for a parental order). In particular, the English Court will assume that any foreign surrogacy arrangement is commercial and that payments made will require retrospective authorisation. The Court has recently redefined its policy on the treatment of commercial payments in the case of Re C 2013 (which I successfully litigated on behalf of the British intended parents) and you can read more about this here - http://www.porterdodsonfertility.com/2013/08/redefined-uk-legal-approach-to-international-surrogacy/

Do get in touch if you want further help and guidance with this. Do also have a look at the surrogacy area of our website which I also hope is helpful - http://www.porterdodsonfertility.com/surrogacy-law/

Best wishes

Louisa


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Vespa
If you're looking for a definition of domicile there's some guidance here: http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/international-surrogacy-law

If you are living abroad temporarily and intend to return to the UK at some point in the future, that may make a significant difference. We have worked with quite a few British ex pat couples who have been given UK parental orders, so can take you through whether you would have a case if you need some help with this.

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## Vespa1

Thank you for the replies.

We've basically been overseas for 20 years in various countries.  There is the possibility that we could move back to the UK, and obtaining the Parental Order would be a major driver for this.  From a high-level, is proving english domicile in this case realistic and is there relevant case law.  Or is this route a pipe-dream?

Vespa


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Vespa

There are some cases involving Brits who have lived in other countries for decades but still retained a UK domicile - it all depends on how you conduct your life and is pretty case specific.

http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/international-surrogacy-law
If you drop me an email to set up an appointment, I would be happy to advise you on your personal situation and give you an answer as to whether getting a parental order is realistic or a pipe dream ([email protected]) - and either way what the way forward might be for you.

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/man-attends-court-connection-alleged-6027786

does anyone know anything about this ?


----------



## eggtastic

Can someone please tell me if they have further information about the laws changing in India regarding Surrogacy for Foreign couples.  I have read on a few sites that they are trying to put a bill through that will effectively ban surrogacy in India for people that are foreign and those who do not have a connection with India.

Regards E x


----------



## LouGhevaert

Hi E

There has been recent coverage in the media about proposals to ban foreigners from undergoing surrogacy in India unless they are a married Indian origin couple - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/no-surrogacy-for-foreigners-tough-new-rules-planned/1152699/ and http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/surrogacy-in-india-government-moves-to-ban-foreigners-403702.

This is definitely something to watch given the previous changes to Indian surrogacy policy over the last year or so. We'll be keeping a close eye on this as well. If you want to discuss your situation in light of this do feel free to PM or email me at [email protected].

Best wishes

Louisa


----------



## Sally Sally Wally

Hi, 

I hope you can help please? We are thinking about surrogacy in the UK. Both myself and my male partner would need donors. Is it correct that if both of us are not connected biologically to the baby, then we could not legally obtain a parental order and therefore become their legal parents in the UK? 

I'm totally confused, and any clarification here would be so helpful. 

Many thanks, Sally xx


----------



## eggtastic

LouGhevaert - thank you for your response.  Do you think it would be unwise to proceed with a cycle before the bill is passed?


----------



## rosebud_05_99

Hi eggtastic
We are three mts along with twins in india so if the bill is passed in january we will be out after that but an exemption has to be made for all clients who has already begun treatment im not sure if that includes those that just signed up or have began treatment. It would be worth contacting sci and asking what their point of view is .
Rosebud


----------



## eggtastic

Thanks Rosebud


----------



## eggtastic

Rosebu - FYI:  SCI told me that they do not know when the bill will be passed through parliament and that through the changes so far no one has come across any difficulties bringing baby home.  However, I am not sure if I should just hold tight and wait to see what happens...


----------



## NatGamble

Sally Sally Wally said:


> Hi,
> 
> I hope you can help please? We are thinking about surrogacy in the UK. Both myself and my male partner would need donors. Is it correct that if both of us are not connected biologically to the baby, then we could not legally obtain a parental order and therefore become their legal parents in the UK?
> 
> I'm totally confused, and any clarification here would be so helpful.
> 
> Many thanks, Sally xx


Hi Sally

If neither of you is biologically connected, the law gets really complicated. You cannot apply for a parental order since the rules require at least one of you to be a biological parent. There are also no easy alternatives, since you may well commit a criminal offence if you apply for adoption instead (on the basis that there is no 'connection' with your child and you haven't been through the required pre-vetting procedures for adoption).

Sorry not to be more encouraging. Is there any way you could use either your eggs or your partner's sperm?

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## GreenEarth

selene78 said:


> Hello Ladies,
> I am doing surrogacy program in Georgia. And before I decided to go ahead I asked my brother (law master degree) to search for some information about the law regulations. He found english versions of Civil code of Georgia and Health Law - and checked it for me. If you are interested I have the files with that on my computer and can send it to you. Of course there might be some regulations that we didn't found, but this two made us decide to work with agency in Tbilisi.
> And as I know surrogate mother is not recognized as a mother of the baby. And IP's names are in Birth Certificate.
> Kate


Selene....it would be amazing if you could share the information about Georgia's law on surrogacy. I sent you a pm too....we are starting our journey with New Life Georgia as a Canadian couple and want to ensure the intended parents are on the birth certificate (even if an Egg Donor is used).....would really appreciate any insight or data u may have, please pm me...

Thanks a lot!!


----------



## duffy7

In scotland I believe you apply for a parental order through the courts before the baby is 6 weeks old? 

Does anyone have experience and know the names of the forms I need and who I would contact?

Also we will have to write wills for my DH and I but also our surrogate to ensure the baby is mentioned. Is it possible to write your own will and have a lawyer agree it?

Thanks


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Duffy


You need to apply for a parental order before your child is six months (rather than six weeks) old.  I know the process is slightly different in Scotland and as an English lawyer I'm not familiar with the forms, but maybe your local family court could help, or otherwise you could speak to a Scottish family solicitor.


Wills are a good idea whenever you are having a baby, but particularly important in surrogacy situations as you won't be the legal parents immediately.  Some people draw up their own wills, or get a kit/template from somewhere like WHSmiths, but personally I'd recommend seeing a solicitor and getting it done properly so you have no worries that the wording isn't right. 


Loads of luck


Natalie


----------



## duffy7

Thanks natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Babymonkey
There are no specific rules on expenses for surrogates at all.  The family court has to look at what you've paid (after you've already paid it!), and then decide whether the payments are 'reasonable expenses' or whether to 'authorise' them.

In practice, the safest advice is to work on the basis that your surrogate should be reimbursed for any costs she has incurred, but not rewarded over and above that (so no loss of earnings for surrogates on benefits).  However, the courts are often fairly flexible.  Lots of parents agree more generic compensation with an element of inconvenience payments, and often find it does not cause any difficulties with the parental order.  

Sorry not to be able to give a clearer answer.  The law on payments is in such a mess.

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi babymonkey

I've replied on the other thread below.  Good luck with your application.


----------



## sukama

Hi Natalie

First, I have to say you are an amazing font of knowledge, which I know we all appreciate.  Second - help!  

I am a surrogate for a gay couple who have a civil partnership, and our transfer date is 19th April.  Fingers crossed...  If all goes well, my questions are as follows:

1.  I know my name goes on the birth certificate, and as I am divorced I have agreed for the non biological father to be added to this as well.  Who registers the birth?  The IP's say they can do it themselves, that I may not need to be present.

2.  When the Parental Order is issued (it can be issued to a gay couple in a civil partnership now can't it?) this will result in the birth certificate being reissued in the names of two very excited daddies...  however, should the child later want to research their birth, what happens to the original version of the certificate?

In adoption cases a replacement certificate is issued, but you can apply for the original birth certificate which shows original data plus it is marked at the bottom with 'adopted'.  I didn't think you could destroy these documents so what would happen to the one with my name on it as the birth mother?

Thank you so much for your help x


----------



## Silver star

Good morning everyone , 

I just want to post so may be some one can point me to the right place , 

I've just had my 7th BFN , with DE IVF , 
So I'm feeling VERY LOW , 

I've always thort of surrogacy as costly , but then so is IVF , 
And I really do not have am issue with it , in terms of not being preg/ given birth / Brest feeding my self , 

So I am now thinking about it ....... 
It seems cheaper abored ,  so I would love to hear from
Anyone who is doing it has done it or thinking about it themselfs , 

Or if this is the worng place to post let me know , 

Thanks xxxx


----------



## NatGamble

Sukama - sorry I've only just spotted your post. You can opt to put the non bio dad on the birth certificate with you if you've signed the Swp/Spp forms at your clinic before transfer (otherwise it's the bio dad). You have to go to the birth registration - it's your responsibility as the 'mother'. The dad has to be there too to be registered on the birth certificate.  


After the parental order is made the original birth certificate gets cancelled and a new one issued, but the child can search the Parental Order Register after the age of 18 and it works similarly to the rules for adopted children.  


Silver Star - hang in there. This is always a really tough time, but surrogacy works for lots of people in many different ways. I'm sure others will be happy to share their experience with you and you might want to post a message on the board as posts on this thread can get a bit lost!


Natalie


----------



## sukama

Thank you Natalie, I did think it would be along those lines but apparently the Surrogacy centre had the IP's thinking there would never be anything to be found with my details on it.  Personally I don't mind either way, but I dislike it when people are mislead.

Again thank you for your answer, much appreciated.

Suzanne


----------



## NatGamble

No problem. Which surrogacy centre told them that?


----------



## sukama

British Surrogacy Centre in Chelmsford.  Think there was some mention of an archive in a solicitor's office initially but that it would be destroyed with the parental order.  When I queried this, I was then told that any child who would look for a maternal link would be searching for the egg donor.  Kind of felt like they thought I was hoping for some form of mommy status?!  Daft.  

I am adopted myself, so I have searched for my own original birth certificate which was why I was curious in the first place.  To be honest I haven't been impressed but my role is to carry a healthy child to term for some very excited daddies, which so far I am doing (six weeks pregnant) but I know the IP's have had other issues.  Including having two egg donors drop out, and when the fertility partner clinic found them a different one the surrogacy centre kept the money saying they had provided matches, not their fault the donors dropped out!!  Unbelievable.  

Rant over!!


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Sukama

It sounds like your intended dads are very lucky to have you.  Best of luck with the rest of the pregnancy and I hope all goes smoothly.

Natalie


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

Did anyone see this- I know it's the Daily Mail but still awful, and British Surrogacy Centre comments http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2630239/Who-human-Says-disgusted-brother-surrogate-mother-pretended-pregnant-FAKED-miscarriages-defraud-couples.html

/links


----------



## NatGamble

This is so sad. There are so many genuine surrogates out there and stories like this just help drive parents overseas (which there is nothing wrong with doing but which has its own challenges). This kind of stuff is thankfully rare although no less awful for those involved.

And just to correct the Daily Mail/British Surrogacy Centre:

It is not illegal to pay a UK surrogate, and reasonable expenses are not set at £15,000 - this is how the law on payments actually works: 
http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/surrogacy-in-the-uk-the-law

Also the British Surrogacy Centre are not the only place in the UK that screens surrogates, including for HIV. Every fertility clinic in the UK does this.

/links


----------



## seeratmehra

Thanks for sharing the Surrogacy related information.


----------



## Tye

Hi can anyone who has done this process  please tell me if they received a normal long birth certificate  i.e place of birth,parents,occupation etc but at the end it says this is a certified copy of an entry in the parental order register.Just wondering if this is  always mentioned on all new long birth certificates following a parental order after surrogacy overseas as the free short certificate we received after the parental order doesn't say anything about parental order. Just a bit confused...and wondering if this is not the long birth certificate which I asked for.


----------



## Tye

Just in case anyone is interested.That is the birth certificate as a result of a parental order.


----------



## DaisyMaisy

It's a long birth certificate. Same as any other I assume, although I've not compared the twins to another certificate.
We also paid for copies of the long certificate.

Xx


----------



## Tye

Hi Daisy no it's not like a normal birth certificate ie like mine from both my biological parents.It's issued re the parental order dept and at the bottom before it's signed it actually says it's  a birth certificate that has been issued as a result of a parental order.We phoned the register office and queried it.We will tell our little girl how she was born when she is older,so it's not a problem for us and children have a right to know when they are 18.My only problem is lack of info as no one told us the format of the birth certificate you would receive and yet again you are left wondering.However,we continue to celebrate our wonderful journey to get her, as she's amazing! I'm sure you feel the same xx


----------



## DaisyMaisy

How strange...... Ours doesn't say anything about a parental order....


----------



## Liu

Hello! I am new , I am Chinese passport China living Spain,I want to have babies but my uterus no good , so I want surrogates mother, in Spain surrogacy is illegal, I ask India they can't do for me. Now I ask Ukraine  clinic they say I can take back baby come to Spain, is true? If someone knows can tell me? Thanks!


----------



## Carnation2

Once our surrogate baby is born in the UK, do we use the original birth certificate to apply for the child’s passport? And is it ok to travel to Europe for a holiday with the child? Also do we need to take a letter along with us showing we have legal guardianship of the child in case it’s required at immigration?

Or do we need to wait until after the PO is issued to do any of the above?


----------



## Carnation2

Our UK resident surrogate is married but has been separated for a number of years. Her husband did not consent to the conception, and he has no knowledge of the surrogacy arrangement as they are not in touch.

In this situation can the biological IF be named on the UK birth certificate (and not the husband)?

HFEA website says: "If your spouse or partner does not wish to be the legal parent, he or she will need to demonstrate to the court that there is a factual reason for not consenting to your treatment that satisfies the law. This could, for example, be evidence to show that you and your spouse or civil partner have separated.

One way to record your spouse or civil partner's lack of consent is by completing the 'LC Stating your spouse or civil partner's lack of consent' form, provided by the clinic where you have treatment. However, this by itself will not automatically remove their status as the legal father or parent of any child born from your treatment." [NB: we had fertility treatment overseas so did not complete this form]

Questions:

1) Is it up to the estranged husband to prove he did not consent to this? Or can we (surrogate mother, IP's) do this on his behalf?

2) Would appropriate evidence to show the absence of consent be a statutory declaration from the surrogate mother confirming she was separated at the time of conception? Would child support arrangements (eg a letter from CSA) also help? Any other examples of helpful evidence would we need?

3) If we have the evidence, then do we need to show it to the birth registrar and explain the situation? Or can we just go ahead and register the biological IF on the birth certificate?

Or is the 'no consent' evidence just relevant for when we get to the PO stage?

4) Are there any court cases dealing with this issue we could read?


----------



## Herts85

Hi Carnation,

This may be something Natalie Gamble on the LGBT thread can help you with - http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=128905.0

I think I've put the link in, it's my first attempt at hyperlinking on here!

Hope everything turns out ok for you

Herts x


----------



## DaisyMaisy

Is she divorced or just separated? I'm assuming that if she is just separated, her husbands nane would go on the birth certificate. However, if she is divorced, you will need her divorce papers to prove that she is divorced and then your husband will be named on the birth certificate.  


As I said, I'm just assuming..... I hope someone with better knowledge will be along soon. Xx


----------



## Carnation2

She's separated and living separately for several years but not divorced. They don't talk to each other. x


----------



## friendlyface

Hi Natalie,

I am a single man (UK citizen) living and working in the US. I have a (divorced) US-based surrogate (US citizen) sourced through a reputable agency. Once she gets pregnant through IVF, I am planning on obtaining a birth order which would make me the sole parent under US law.

I have a few questions which I hope you can help me with. These relate to the Surrogacy Overseas document on the gov.uk web site (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/324487/Surrogacy_overseas__updated_June_14_.pdf)

- When applying for a British passport for the future child, is there a standard blurb for the surrogate mother to use which confirms that she gives up parental responsibility and custody of the child? Similarly, is there a standard template for the head doctor from the surrogacy agency to use?

- The requirements for a British passport suggest that I should present the surrogate mother's identity documents (e.g. passport, driving license). However, as passport processing is done in the UK, I cannot really ask her for her actual license or passport, as it may take weeks to get the baby's British passport. Do you think photocopies will suffice?

- Would it be prudent to get any documentation from the third party egg donor to present to the passport office? I'm guessing it doesn't matter if she is single or not.

- Is there a particular contact at the UK Passport Office that IPs should make contact with to explain the background of a surrogacy case? It appears that the UK High Commission in the USA does not really handle passports any more, so I doubt the office here would be of much help.

- At this point, I am unsure whether the child and myself will return to the UK to live. Although as a single man I am not eligible to apply for a UK parental order, is there any other way that I be classified under UK law as the sole parent (as the surrogate mother will still be considered the legal mother under UK law).

Thanks so much!


----------



## Hoping 2014

Hi Natalie, 

I live in the Republic of Ireland but close to the border of Northern Ireland. I am employed by a company based in the UK. We are thinking of surrogacy and I was wondering about the maternity leave provided to intended parents through surrogacy. In order to avail of this do I need to be a resident of the UK or is the fact that I work for a UK company (& pay UK taxes) clearance for this leave? 

Thank you for all your help on surrogacy matters.


----------



## Kyra3108

Our baby was born in UK thorough surrogacy and we are now applying for her British Passport.
The passport form has a declaration section that needs me to state that she was born of a surrogacy arrangement.

We have a new birth certificate with me and my husband as parents. Do we still need to declare?


----------



## NatGamble

Carnation2 said:


> Our UK resident surrogate is married but has been separated for a number of years. Her husband did not consent to the conception, and he has no knowledge of the surrogacy arrangement as they are not in touch.
> 
> In this situation can the biological IF be named on the UK birth certificate (and not the husband)?
> 
> HFEA website says: "If your spouse or partner does not wish to be the legal parent, he or she will need to demonstrate to the court that there is a factual reason for not consenting to your treatment that satisfies the law. This could, for example, be evidence to show that you and your spouse or civil partner have separated.
> 
> One way to record your spouse or civil partner's lack of consent is by completing the 'LC Stating your spouse or civil partner's lack of consent' form, provided by the clinic where you have treatment. However, this by itself will not automatically remove their status as the legal father or parent of any child born from your treatment." [NB: we had fertility treatment overseas so did not complete this form]
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1) Is it up to the estranged husband to prove he did not consent to this? Or can we (surrogate mother, IP's) do this on his behalf?
> 
> 2) Would appropriate evidence to show the absence of consent be a statutory declaration from the surrogate mother confirming she was separated at the time of conception? Would child support arrangements (eg a letter from CSA) also help? Any other examples of helpful evidence would we need?
> 
> 3) If we have the evidence, then do we need to show it to the birth registrar and explain the situation? Or can we just go ahead and register the biological IF on the birth certificate?
> 
> Or is the 'no consent' evidence just relevant for when we get to the PO stage?
> 
> 4) Are there any court cases dealing with this issue we could read?


Hi there

I'm sorry for taking so long to respond, and hope this query is still live and I can help.

The law says that, if they were married at the time of conception then her husband is the legal father 'unless it is shown he did not consent'. In the situation you have described (i.e. he had no involvement in the conception) I would recommend you put together some evidence - without involving him - to 'show' he didn't consent. A statutory declaration from your surrogate explaining her marital situation at the date of conception, and his lack of involvement, should be sufficient.

It's something you can show to the registrar at birth registration (and the knock on effect is that the intended father can go on the birth certificate instead). It may cause some questions and checking at the birth registration, but if you have any serious problems I would get a lawyer involved. Hopefully it won't be necessary.

It will then come up again as part of the parental order application. You can show the birth certificate and surrogate's statutory declaration to your parental order reporter as evidence that the husband need not be involved, and that should be fine (in terms of satisfying the court that he doesn't need to be involved or to give his consent to the parental order).

I've dealt with a few cases like this and all have been easy if managed proactively. The only published case which deals with this point in passing (saying that a supportive husband who 'acquiesces' to a surrogacy is the legal father) is this one: http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/uploads/docs/5360d99c3ff39.pdf

I hope that helps, and good luck with your application (and all the rest!)

Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Carnation2


Assuming you're all British, you can apply for a British passport before you have a parental order, but you will need to declare the surrogate (and her husband) as the parents.  Although the issued passport itself doesn't show the parents' information it means that the Passport Office has a record of the 'wrong' parents and so generally we advise that it's best (but not critical) to wait until the parental order is granted.  


However, if you need to travel before your parental order is granted you can do.  As well as the passport, you need something in writing from your surrogate (and her husband) giving you permission to take your child out of the country - a letter is enough. They can informally say that you are caring for your child in this letter, but this doesn't formally give you legal guardianship - that only comes with your parental order.


We would also recommend that you write to the Passport Office after your parental order is granted to update them.


I hope that helps, and best of luck with the birth!


Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Kyra3108


That's what the form asks you to do, so you do need to declare the surrogacy.  It's a new thing which has been introduced mainly for people applying before they have a parental order.  However, I would just include a covering letter and enclose a copy of your parental order as well as the birth certificate.


Best of luck


Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Pandagirl


I hope it isn't too late to answer this for you!  Yes, domicile is an absolute criteria as it is a requirement of the legislation, but in practice the courts are reasonably flexible in finding that (for example) parents who have chosen to naturalise as British have acquired a domicile of choice here.  We have dealt with a few cases where one but not both parents is domiciled here too, and that can help sometimes with any tax complications.


If you would like some advice on the specifics of your situation, let me know - we can work out the best way forward.


Best wishes


Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Liu said:


> Hello! I am new , I am Chinese passport China living Spain,I want to have babies but my uterus no good , so I want surrogates mother, in Spain surrogacy is illegal, I ask India they can't do for me. Now I ask Ukraine clinic they say I can take back baby come to Spain, is true? If someone knows can tell me? Thanks!


Hi Liu

I'm an English lawyer and so can't advise you on the law in Spain, but would strongly recommend you get some Spanish legal advice. If you email us at [email protected] we can point you in the right direction.

Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

friendlyface said:


> Hi Natalie,
> 
> I am a single man (UK citizen) living and working in the US. I have a (divorced) US-based surrogate (US citizen) sourced through a reputable agency. Once she gets pregnant through IVF, I am planning on obtaining a birth order which would make me the sole parent under US law.
> 
> I have a few questions which I hope you can help me with. These relate to the Surrogacy Overseas document on the gov.uk web site (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/324487/Surrogacy_overseas__updated_June_14_.pdf)
> 
> - When applying for a British passport for the future child, is there a standard blurb for the surrogate mother to use which confirms that she gives up parental responsibility and custody of the child? Similarly, is there a standard template for the head doctor from the surrogacy agency to use?
> 
> - The requirements for a British passport suggest that I should present the surrogate mother's identity documents (e.g. passport, driving license). However, as passport processing is done in the UK, I cannot really ask her for her actual license or passport, as it may take weeks to get the baby's British passport. Do you think photocopies will suffice?
> 
> - Would it be prudent to get any documentation from the third party egg donor to present to the passport office? I'm guessing it doesn't matter if she is single or not.
> 
> - Is there a particular contact at the UK Passport Office that IPs should make contact with to explain the background of a surrogacy case? It appears that the UK High Commission in the USA does not really handle passports any more, so I doubt the office here would be of much help.
> 
> - At this point, I am unsure whether the child and myself will return to the UK to live. Although as a single man I am not eligible to apply for a UK parental order, is there any other way that I be classified under UK law as the sole parent (as the surrogate mother will still be considered the legal mother under UK law).
> 
> Thanks so much!


Hi Friendlyface

Sorry for taking a couple of weeks to get back to you. If you are British (other than by descent) then your child will be born British (by descent) if, as you say, your surrogate is single. You are then quite right that you can apply for a British passport, and this is now dealt with by the Passport Office in Liverpool. The Surrogacy Overseas guidance covers surrogacy in all jurisdictions and in practice we find the requirements vary considerably for surrogacy in different places - with typically fewer documents needed after surrogacy in the US. You don't always need the surrogate's consent even - the Passport Office often accepts just the US parentage order - but it does no harm to get a statement in readiness, and we can draft something if your agency doesn't have something they can provide.

There isn't a particular contact at the Passport Office to go to, and you don't need anything from your egg donor (who has no relevance to nationality or parentage under UK law).

In terms of your parentage, the only ways to make yourself the sole parent under UK (as well as US) law are to obtain a parental order or an adoption order. Adoption is complex, and largely untested, but potentially do-able. The parental order is the much more appropriate option. Although parental orders are not currently open to single parents, we are in the middle of fighting a test case to try and get this changed, so watch this space! You would need to have sufficient links with the UK to make either application, so may need some advice on the options for you specifically.

I hope this helps as a steer, and if you would like more specific information we woud be happy to advise.

Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hoping 2014 said:


> Hi Natalie,
> 
> I live in the Republic of Ireland but close to the border of Northern Ireland. I am employed by a company based in the UK. We are thinking of surrogacy and I was wondering about the maternity leave provided to intended parents through surrogacy. In order to avail of this do I need to be a resident of the UK or is the fact that I work for a UK company (& pay UK taxes) clearance for this leave?
> 
> Thank you for all your help on surrogacy matters.


Hi Hoping 2014

I'm sorry but I'm not sure of the answer to your question. It will depend on the terms of your employment contract and the law you fall under. I would recommend that you speak to an employment lawyer for some advice about this.

Best of luck

Natalie


----------



## chooshoos

hello,

I understand surrogacy in India has been barred for foreign nationals, this could be a plan C for us, has anyone heard anything?


----------



## NatGamble

http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/blog/2015/11/02/possible-legal-change-in-india/

No updates to this as of today but will update our blog if we hear more


----------



## chooshoos

Thank You! 
So very kind, appreciated 
Cheers
Choo


----------



## dezert72

Hi all,


Have a surrogacy birth certificate question too. We had our beautiful baby girl with help from our friend and surrogate (who lives UK). We now have the parental order though from the court but not the re-issued birth certificate with our (IPs) names as parents. How long does that take and who should I get in touch with to chase it up?


Thanks


Dez


----------



## NatGamble

It should just happen automatically (and takes 4 weeks plus). If you've waited longer, I would first contact the court which made your order and ask if they also sent a copy to the General Register Office. If they have, then ask for a contact at the GRO who you can contact to see if it's stuck with him/her.

These do take a while, but it's always worth checking that the paperwork hasn't got lost in the system somewhere.

Good luck

Natalie


----------



## Carnation2

Natalie - a big thank you for helping us ladies navigate these issues. 

You are very kind and generous with your time. x


----------



## dezert72

Totally agree - thanks very much Natalie for giving us ladies advice.


----------



## NatGamble

Awww thanks guys - that's really lovely!


----------



## spaceman1950

Hi all
I have looked at some of the excellent legal summaries on this site and elsewhere pertaining to surrogacy law.  What i am not clear on is if there is any difference in terms of nationality of the child ( from a British intended parent and foreign surrogate) if he/she  is born in the UK as opposed to born in the surrogate mother's country of origin. Many thanks in advance . 

Thanks Tony M


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Tony


That's not a straightforward question to answer as it depends on the specifics.


If you mean can you avoid immigration difficulties by bringing a foreign surrogate to the UK to give birth, then the answer is that in most situations it is pretty difficult to achieve both for practical reasons and because th surrogate is unlikely to have immigration status allowing her to come to the UK to give birth here (though it depends on the specific facts).


In terms of British nationality, a child isn't born British just because they are born in the UK - they need a British 'parent', something which depends on who the bio father is and whether the surrogate is married.


What's your scenario here?


Natalie


----------



## Cbizzy

Really keen to get our forms sent off to get the parental order going as our little guy is 6 weeks old. We wanted to know whether to go to our local court - Bromley, but so far Bromley have been rather backwards in every aspect (apart from our amazing midwives who we couldn't fault). Anyway, I could be wrong in my thinking, but can you go to any court. So I would love to know positive stories or find advice as soon as is possible so we can get this ball rolling. Thank you in advance.


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Cbizzy


Congratulations on your little boy's arrival!


Was he born in the UK or overseas?  If overseas you should apply to the Central Family Court in High Holborn, London.  If he was born in the UK, you should apply to your local family court but the CFC in London (which has tons of experience of surrogacy) may be happy to deal with it.  You could call them to ask, or otherwise just apply there and see what happens - worst case scenario they transfer the case back to Kent.


Best of luck


Natalie


----------



## Wishings15

I'm currently looking into my sister carrying my biological child. Having looking into the UK law it was confirmed that I was entitled to adoption leave. So my manager raised an enquiry. But HR have said that I'm not entitled to anything and I can ask for unpaid leave because EU law supersedes UK law??

What is that? I mean surley not. I'm going out of my mind I can't afford unpaid leave for 9 months, I'm the main earner?


----------



## NatGamble

I'm not an employment lawyer but that sounds like rubbish to me! We fought really hard for the maternity leave rights for surrogacy and it would be ludicrous if they were just cancelled out by EU law.

i would strongly recommend getting advice from an employment lawyer to help with this.

Best of luck!

Natalie


----------



## Cbizzy

Please can someone advise us on the current process for gaining a parental order? We sent our forms which were sadly returned and we were told to send to a different court. That was nearly 3 weeks ago. Today we have each had a letter in the post asking us to appear at Croydon court to sit before the judge on 26/5. I sort of thought we got assigned a court reporter before this happens Thanks in advance for the help. Carol


----------



## Cbizzy

So, I thought I knew what happened with the process of obtaining a parental order ... But now I am now so sure. We sent the initial forms to the court 3 weeks ago. Today both my husband and I have received letters requesting us to appear in court on 26 Mayto sit before a judge in respect of the parental order. I thought we had to be assigned a parental officer/ court reporter to assess everything which they put before the court and a decision is made. Am I wrong or what is going on Can't exactly phone the court as it is weekend but totally curious as to what's going on. 

Thanks!


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Cbizzy

Do call and ask tomorrow for reassurance, but don't worry; it sounds like you've been called to a directions hearing (a first hearing). The court rules in fact do say there should be an initial directions hearing at which the judge/magistrate sets the timetable as to what is needed before a decision can be made - that usually includes setting the timing for the parental order report and then the final hearing. However, some local courts short circuit that and just have one hearing after the parental order report has been done, so there isn't always an initial hearing in practice. 

It's nothing to worry about. You just need to show up and follow what the court asks you to do afterwards.

There's some more general info on our website here if it's helpful:

http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/parenthood-and-parental-orders-surrogacy-law

Good luck with your application.

Natalie


----------



## squidgy Bear

Hello Natalie 

I'm wondering if you can help me...
I close friend of mine has offered to be a surrogate for myself and my husband  (both from the UK ) we have been having our most recent ivf treatment in Athens and currently have embryos frozen there...if we get the paperwork done so we can have the transfer there and then my surrogate returns to athens to give birth what would the legalities back home in the UK be ? I'm just beginning to look into to surrogacy so I'm a little sketchy on all the details so far.

Thank you  x


----------



## NatGamble

Hi SquidgyBear


Happy to help but just want to be clear where everyone is based before I reply.  Do you mean that you, your husband and your surrogate are all based in the UK but you are considering having treatment (and your surrogate giving birth) in Greece? Or is your surrogate in Greece?


Natalie


----------



## squidgy Bear

Hi Natalie 

Yes sorry I wasn't very clear on that ,yslef husband and the surrogate are all from the UK and live in the UK,  we were thinking about her giving birth in greece (assuming she gets pregnant) as myself and hubby could go on the birth certificate but I assume on coming back to the UK that document wouldn't really mean anything anyway ? And we would still have to apply to the courts.

Thanks again x


----------



## Brown464

Hi
Did you get to the bottom of this?
I'm a HR Manager and have been supportive of people doing surrogacy/adoption etc. Maybe that's because I am reproductively challenged myself tho lol!

You could call an employment lawyer, normally you can get a free telephone consultation.

Or try ACAS 08457474747?

Do you have a union rep who could help fight your case?


----------



## NatGamble

Hi waitingforstork


Are you and your British and do you live in the UK? If so, and you have the treatment and birth in the UK, it sounds like you will be governed by UK law and so can follow the usual processes - parental order etc.


However, it would be sensible to get some advice in France to check how you stand there and what might happen if your friend did end up giving birth in France.


Re your surrogate's husband's paternity leave I'm afraid I have no idea - I imagine it will depend on French employment law and his contract.


Best of luck with everything.


Natalie


----------



## Reptile Smile

So here I am on a rainy Saturday afternoon, trying to prepare as best I can for the trip out for the birth (in Georgia) in maybe 8 or so week's time, and even the simplest of jobs turns out to be more complex than I thought it would be!

1) In the address section of the passport application form, given that the passport application is for a child, should I put the Current Address down as our UK address (at which the child has not yet lived) or as the Tbilisi address at which we will be staying at the time of application. I assumed the UK address, but then it said that the passport would usually only be delivered to the current address, and we certainly don't want it delivered to the UK, but then I thought it got delivered to TLS Contact (Embassy outsource company) in this particular instance?

2) On the parent section, given that we will be applying before the Parental Order has been granted, must I list the Surrogate Mother as Mother on the form?  I presume I am ok to sign the form itself, given that it will be accompanied by the DNA evidence that I am the father, but I ask because the form will also be accompanied by a document stating that the SM gives up the child.

Any thoughts or experience gratefully received!


----------



## Dory10

Reptile Smile

Exciting times for you, I'll move you over to the law section where one of the legal ladies may be able to offer some advice  

Dory 
Xxx


----------



## DaisyMaisy

Hi, 

You should have the passport firm for overseas. The children's passports will get send to the embassy and they will pass them on to you. 

The surrogate will be named on the passport as the mother. My dh signed the form. The passport office would only speak to him when chasing up the application  (not our immigration lawyer) xx


----------



## Stilltryingandhoping

Hi Natalie

I don't know if you are still responding to this thread as it's quite old, but I would love some advice.

My husband and I are about to enter into a surrogacy agreement in Ukraine. We will be using his sperm, and maybe my eggs. Atleast one of us will be genetically linked to any child we have. I'm assuming that immigration will be straight forward as all the surrogates the clinic uses will either be unmarried or divorced. 

My concern lies in the fact that we will have a surrogacy contract with the clinic. I don't want the courts to look unfavourably at our case because of This, when we apply for a parental order. when pressing the clinic for an indication of how much the surrogate mothers get paid, I found it was under the £15k reasonable expenses that the courts look at. The rest of the money we pay is for the clinic, for fertility treatment they provide, our accommodation and food. 

Can you please advise on any of this? Also, should we get my husband and the surrogate mothers name on the birth certificate? They usually add the IP's name, but I don't want that to cause issues later. 

Many thanks for the amazing advice you provide on this site


----------



## DaisyMaisy

Hi, 

I can help a little, just through personal experience.  On the Ukraine birth certificate, it will be you and your husband's name.  Once your parental order is granted in the UK, your child's birth certificate will be sent to you with yours and your husband's name. Obviously, the place of birth will state the Ukraine. 

Xxx


----------



## Bella2016

Hi everyone, is Natalie still posting on this thread these days?

We are interested using a surrogate via a Ukrainian clinic, but i would like to enquire about the legal side of things re bringing the child back tot he UK before we commit to anything. I am British, but my DH is from an EU country, though we have both been domiciles in the UK for almost 20 years. If we use a DE and only my DH would be linked genetically to the baby, would we have any problems with immigration or would we be able to obtain an emergency document or visa for the child?

Also, the surrogate mother would be paid, though by the clinic and not directly by us, but in the contract it says that we would have to pay 6000 EUR when the surrogate is 12 weeks pg, so would this cause a problem when applying for a parental order, seeing that paying a commercial fee to the surrogate is not legal in the UK??

Any advice would be truly appreciated. 

Thank you,

Bella xx


----------



## Stilltryingandhoping

Thanks DaisyMaisy.

Did you have your children through a surrogate in Ukraine? If so, i would love to get some advice on your experience with applying for parental order.


----------



## DaisyMaisy

Yes we did. Please feel free to pm me. Xx


----------



## NatGamble

Hi everyone


Sorry for my late reply,  but yes I'm still here!


Re the UK passport application in the Ukraine, you can either include the surrogate's details on the form or leave that bit blank (but either way include a covering letter explaining the situation and that your surrogate is not married).  It's fine for the IF to sign the form.  Be prepared for a long wait - in my experience the applications take 3-4 months to process.  In our most recent case it was a bit quicker (mainly because, for the first time, the passport office didn't require a DNA test to be done) so hopefully that wasn't a one off!


In terms of the parental order, the court will need to 'authorise' the payments you have made to your surrogate and your agency over and above expenses.  Don't worry - they will expect to do that and do it in every single international surrogacy case. In fact the very first UK parental order granted after international surogacy in 2008 was a Ukrainian case in which 27,000 Euros was paid to the surrogate and authorised.  There is no 'maximum' you can pay and it's a myth about £15,000 being an acceptable figure (it's a general guideline in the UK but not elsewhere where standards of living are different, and in any event the High Court - where your application will be heard if your child is born abroad - doesn't follow this at all) . What you need to do is to set out exactly what your surrogate received (and if you don't know you need that info from your clinic) and give broader information to set that in context, including showing she wasn't exploited and you have acted openly and honestly.


----------



## Bella2016

Thanks for your reply, Natalie. 

Can I also ask how things work with immigration in our case, if we use a DE and only my DH would be linked genetically to the baby, but he isn't British?. I am British, but my DH is from an EU country, (though we have both been domiciles in the UK for almost 20 years). Would we have any problems with immigration seeing that my DH isn't Brirish or would we be able to obtain an emergency document or visa for the child? Xxx


----------



## DaisyMaisy

We we not asked for a dna test, just a letter from the clinic stating genetic relationship.  This was outlined in the guidance notes on the government website. Xx


----------



## Reptile Smile

For what it's worth (which might not be very much...) we recently had a meeting with TLS Contact for our passport process in Georgia, who are the out-sourced company who process passport applications on behalf of the Embassy.  They told us unequivocally we had to get a DNA test, which we were kind of surprised about - not that it was totaly out of left-field, but that most people had told us they hadn't needed it.  However - we haven't got as far as actually applying yet, so we shall see...


----------



## DaisyMaisy

Yes, we were told that it was unusual to ask for a dna test. X


----------



## NatGamble

Bella2016 said:


> Thanks for your reply, Natalie.
> 
> Can I also ask how things work with immigration in our case, if we use a DE and only my DH would be linked genetically to the baby, but he isn't British?. I am British, but my DH is from an EU country, (though we have both been domiciles in the UK for almost 20 years). Would we have any problems with immigration seeing that my DH isn't Brirish or would we be able to obtain an emergency document or visa for the child? Xxx


Hi Bella

That's more complicated and you may need proper advice. The first obvious question is can your husband get an EU passport for your baby under whatever law applies? If so you may be able to use that to come to the UK and it may be a lot quicker than the UK routes. Otherwise you could apply for an entry clearance visa outside the immigration rules (on the basis you intend to apply for a parental order). It's possible you may alternatively apply for British nationality registration for your child on the basis of your link but I'd need to check the policy rules and you might need additional documentation in the Ukraine. Definitely get your plan sorted before you go.


----------



## Bella2016

Thank you for your response, Natalie. My husband will call his solicitor friend to find out about the laws in Austria, but unfortunately surrogacy isn't allowed there and thus they make it very difficult to obtain an Austrian passport/nationality for a baby born through surrogacy abroad. I thought that it may be complicated, but it is good to know that there may be ways yo get around this. We are still at the stage of researching this, but we will definitely get proper advice from a solicitor. Would it be possible to contact yourself for legal advice when the time comes? xx


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Bella

Of course - feel free. You can email us at [email protected] whenever you're ready.

Natalie


----------



## Stilltryingandhoping

Hi Natalie

Thank you very much your advice. From my experience, our clinic is being quite vague with what exactly the surrogate is being paid, although they gave me a rough idea when I pressed the matter. I know it will be a struggle to get them to provide this information when the time comes that we need it. Luckily, I will have a good few months in Kiev (when we are waiting for a baby passport) to make sure I bug them about it and investigate further. 

When it is time to apply for the parental order, I will contact your office and have a consultation. So parents generally need legal representation when attending court? Or would we just need legal advice from your firm to make the application etc? I'm just wondering how much legal help we will need at that point.

Thanks for your replies


----------



## NatGamble

It's always a good idea to get legal advice before you apply (I've had a run of cases at the moment where people haven't and it's made things really complicated - often avoidably!). However how you decide to run the application itself is a very personal decision. Lots of people represent themselves but some want to be represented to make the process smooth and easy. We have a range of support options to suit all budgets/ preferences so can talk that through with you.

Look forward to meeting you once you get that far and good luck with everything in the meantime.

Natalie


----------



## Bluebell10

Dear all 

My Husband and I are just starting to look into surrogacy overseas. We're thinking Ukraine at the moment from the clinics we have Skyped. Still need to visit before signing but we have some questions over the legal side in terms of how do we bring the child to the UK afterwards?

Can we bring them home on a Ukrainian passport and then obtain British Citizenship when back home or do we have to stay in Ukraine aftwrwards and roughly how long?

Also, and this may be a silly question but how have others made it work with time off work going to the clinic for the process and staying afterwards? My employer have already told me I am not entitled to maternity or adoption pay but I am trying to work out whether my husband will be allowed out at all? 

Plus Natalie I see you advice on surrogacy law. Would you be able to help us on the surrogacy side even though we're going overseas? I think we would like someone to help review any contract we sign etc.

Thanks everyone


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## Reptile Smile

I believe Ukraine is similar to Georgia - that is, the IPs are recognised as the parents (not the SM) and therefore, the child isn't entitled to Ukrainian citizenship (and therefore passport).  That's why you have to stay out there (for 'at least 10 weeks' which in practice means 3-4 months, possibly longer.  Bear in mind, in the Ukraine, the visa is only for 3 months, and they have now stopped issuing 'emergency travel documents' simply for running out of visa time (they still issue them, but only where there's something major like a death in the family, or whatever).

FWIW, the only place I think you can do commercial surrogacy where the child gets the passport of where they were born is the USA, and that's crazy money...

So sorry to hear your employers are so backwards.  Ours were brilliant and supportive, and that's ultimately what made it so possible - they found a way to make sure we were both able to be out here for 3 months (my wife on maternity, and me on a 3 month sabbatical).


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## Stilltryingandhoping

Hi everyone

I have a question, also related to getting a child passport. 

My husband and I have signed up for surrogacy in Ukraine. Because of the 3 month visa issue, we plan on him flying back and forth from U.K.,and me staying. That way, if I cannot get a visa extension, atleast he will be able to stay with the baby.

My question is , when we apply for the baby passport,will we have to hand our passports in with the application,and be without them? Or will they just make copies to submit with the application. 

I just want to nske sure he will be able to use his passport and not be stuck in Kiev the whole time. 

Thanks


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## NatGamble

That should be fine - we've had a few clients do that. The Passport Office is a bit variable with what it requires but don't give up your original passports. You should be able to attend with them in person at the British Embassy in Kiev so they can take their own copy from the original.


Good luck!


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## Stilltryingandhoping

Hi everyone

I had a question about Parentsl order applications. 

Does anyone know if it's possible to send off the initial form to the courts while we are still in Ukraine, waiting for the baby passport? It's just to get the ball rolling. From what I have learnt, we will be in Ukraine for 3-4 months after the baby is born. I'm wondering if it's possible to do that, so the form for the surrogate is sent out while we are in Ukraine and we can make sure the clinic does actually give it to her to sign. There may be problems getting it to her later on when we have left, I just want to be sure she actually receives it. 

Appreciate any help.
Thanks


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## Reptile Smile

Bear in mind I'm not a lawyer, but the process of assimilating all the legal evidence for the PO is very similar to gathering the evidence or the UK passports for the child.  You can begin this process whenever you like, so yes, you could do this in Kiev.


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## Stilltryingandhoping

Thanks Reptile Smile. 

Have you started your application? Can I message you? 

S xx


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## NatGamble

Hi there and sorry for the late reply. Yes you absolutely can send your parental order application to the court while you are in the Ukraine. If you send your C51 application form (with birth certificate) to the Central family Court in London, they will 'issue' the application (stamp it and give it a case number) and return the forms to you. You can then translate a copy of the C51, C52 and A101A and get the latter two signed by your surrogate before a notary (after your child is six weeks old). If you can do that while you are in the Ukraine to supervise that's ideal and you can give the court evidence about the fact that your surrogate understood what she is signing.

Good luck!

Natalie


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## Stilltryingandhoping

HI Natalie

Thank you for your respose. So we don't have to get the translated C51(C52) sent with the filled out C51 when we apply? I heard someone mention that you send the translated C51 aswell and the court may want to send it to the surrogate themselves.

would we need the surrogate to sign the translated copy only or an English one too, so one of each? We are planning on getting her to sign an affidavit that will be witnessed to just confirm she is giving up legal guardianship and that she understands what the forms mean and what she is signing. Would that be sufficient?

Thank you for your help.

S xx


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## NatGamble

Yes that sounds good. Re the translation she needs to sign something in Ukrainian so she can read and understand it, but if there's a matching English version to sign or English text alongside or a translation back into English then that means the court can read it too.

The court here won't liaise with your surrogate to get things signed - you'll need to do that.

Natalie


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## BlueCloud

Hi All, 

I am looking for help for UK passport application for a surrogate baby expected to be born in Ukraine. Can someone please help by answering my following questions:

- Can we apply for baby's passport from UK whilst baby is still in Ukraine? I received the following advise from UK passport office" baby is being born in the Ukraine the application will have to be made from overseas. Although your husband can apply from the UK but the passport will be delivered to the address where the baby is residing". Has anyone gone through this route? 

- Passport application requires a consent from surrogate mother stating "A signed document that is notarised and witnessed, stating your surrogate relinquishes parental responsibility and is happy for you to apply for the passport". Does anyone have a template or content of this affidavit? If so, please can you share? 

- I have a medical neurological condition which gets worst in extreme weather. The time around we are expecting out baby will be extremely cold in Ukraine. My neurologist in UK is happy to provide a supporting documents to either expedite the passport process or apply for an emergency travel document for the baby. Can this be a valid reason to come home (UK) earlier than usual 3-4 months timescale? 

- Does emergency travel document for baby requires counter signature? 

- Does anyone know a good immigration lawyer in UK who is experienced in international surrogacy?


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## Stilltryingandhoping

Hi 

I have a quick question about the parental order. If I apply for this whilst still in Ukraine, can I ask the courts to send all correspondence to a family memeber in the Uk? Or can it only be to our own home address in the UK? 

Although we will have someone check our mail once a week, I fear we will have a small timeframe to get our surrogate to sign the C52 and we may miss this window.

Can anybody advise?

S xx


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## aster10

I wonder if anyone had any experience? We found out quite quickly that one of us (or potentially both) have an unknown genetic condition that results in our babies having a fatal heart condition, but we don't know which gene is faulty and which of us is the carrier of that gene. We used double donation IVF, I lost the baby at 39 weeks due to a cord accident and my lining does not seem to work anymore. Super unlucky! It is either (i) (international) adoption or (ii) international surrogacy. Ideally we would like a double donation surrogacy, but in this case no parent is biologically linked to the child, so it is difficult to bring the child to the UK. I am researching the Georgian and the Ukrainian forums and the Internet in general, but do I understand correctly that you need DNA evidence for the UK embassy in both countries? Or is it that we can get UK documents for the child based on the birth certificate (listing us as parents) and then deal with the rest back in the UK? (If it is double donation IVF - through some sort of an adoption order rather than parental order). One option I thinking about is taking a risk and using my husband's sperm anyway.  

I know there's Natalie Gamble out there. Before paying £££ for a consultation I just wanted to understand if double donation surrogacy is realistic at all - or we should not even think about it. 

Thank you all so much in advance!


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## MargotW

Aster
I am so sorry to hear your story.
You have to apply for a parental order to make you the legal parents of a child born through surrogacy. No matter what it says on the birth certificate, under our law the surrogate will remain the child's mother until you obtain a parental order. One of the requirements to obtain a parental order is that at least one of the intended parents is genetically related to the child. 
You'll need to be approved before you can adopt from abroad. Have a look at this website:
http://www.icacentre.org.uk/adopters/intercountry-adoption/getting-started/
I really wish you the best of luck.


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## aster10

Thank you very much


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## emma-pp

Hi! I wonder if anyone can help - my husband is Swedish, but been living and working in the UK since 1996. He will go on the birth certificate as our Surrogate is not married. Does the parental order just apply to me then?? Or does it still apply to Thomas and is he considered domiciled??


Thank you so much!!! 
Emma xx


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## MargotW

Hello all
The Government has released some guidance about surrogacy for those who may be interested:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/684275/surrogacy-guidance-for-intended-parents-and-surrogates.pdf


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## HelenMao

please would anyone be able to clatify the few point below?

1. the SM will need to sign the giving up parental right 3 times. First time is to abtain the birth certificate and passport. second time is after 6 weeks when we apply parent order. Third time is when court send the C52 forms for SM to sign.

2. The father can stay Ukraine for very munimum period, first arrive Ukraine for the birth and DNA test and going back to Uk as the birth certificate and apostille can take weeks.  Second time come back for passport application appointment day. after the aplication he can go back to uk again as he need to work to keep the family fed.

3. in between when he is back to UK. he can fill in the passport application and get one friend to sign the contersignatue on the form and photoe as we do not have friend in Ukraine nor anyone would fly to there. 

4. is there a final interview for passport as well? do they give a letter so the father can fly back to Kiev again.

your help will be much appreciated, if SM Need to sign 3times we would like to put it in agreement to avoid confusion. as after birth,it might be very diffiicult to find the SM.

many thanks for your help!
Helen


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