# Hope for those over 40 and persuing conception with own eggs?



## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Hello ladies

I have just come across this page (http://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/premature_ovaries.html) on the site for Center Human Reproduction. They have a DHEA Treatment Program for older women (generally above age 3, and younger women with so-called prematurely aging ovaries.



> Our goal for 2007 is a first pregnancy in a 46-year old (or older) woman.
> 
> Our second declared goal for the year 2007 is to expand our treatment successes in older women beyond age 45. We, therefore, encourage older women, above that age, who are still interested in pursuing conception with their own oocytes, to contact us. We have gotten very close to breaking the 46-year barrier, but are so-far still approximately one month shy.
> 
> Our third goal for the year is to attempt DHEA supplementation in women with outright premature ovarian failure (POF).


I'm really  by this ... but am I grasping at straws and being drawn into a fairy tale? We'll see ... I've just completed their "Prematurely Aging Ovaries Qualification Form" ... and have been promised a reply within 48 hours.

Has anyone else persued this clinic and this treatment?

dcon_blue
x


... to us all

/links


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## Empty2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Hi dcon blue,

Just been on the website, and printed it off, sounds great, almost too good to be true.  

Would be very interested to hear about their trials, but not sure if I could go through any myself though as it did say some would be given the placebo.  Maybe if I hadn't done so much IVF already would have been willing to take the chance.

Good luck with your reply, keep us posted.  

Wishing you   

emps
x


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi girls,

Don't be drawn in to this.  Can't even find this clinic reporting in SART results.  From what I know about them, they do not have great results at any age let alone over 40.  Note they are talking about pregnancies NOT live births which I am not sure whether they have achieved at over 42. 

Even CHR admit the jury is still out ref. DHEA for women over 40.  Early days for it still agreed, but no convincing research yet to show it has any benefit in improving egg quality etc. at all. 

Look at their success rates - they do not break them down into live births, how many women at each age actually cycled, how many times, how many embryos transferred etc. etc.  Not scienfitic, and meaningless information.  I got pregnant at 44.5 but miscarried.  However, my pregnancy would have appeared as a positive stat. on my clinic's success rates - but I didn't actually get a baby from this cycle.  

You want clinics who can get over 40s to live birth, then we are talking CCRM and Cornell mainly, not this one.  Sorry.  Look at Cornell's published success rates and you will see the difference in a top clinic reporting rates and this one - totally different.

All a personal opinion based on over 3 years research and my own trip for ivf treatment to Cornell.

However, if you've got the money to go out and try it.......

Daisy
x


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## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Hi emps

I know it sounds great doesn't it. I know it's early days and there are no trails that why they are doing this double blinded study but at CHR they say ...



> This study, however, mandates the use of a placebo, a sugar pill, in half of all patients. In practical terms this means that one half of all patients in this study will receive no treatment for up to four months. To give no treatment to an older woman who, maybe, has only a few months of reproductive life left, would not be considered ethical. We, therefore, had to restrict this study to a relatively young patient population, between the ages of 35 and 40 years. Women above age 40 will not be enrolled in this study.





> Based on these findings, we have now instituted DHEA supplementation for all women above age 40. As a consequence, we fully expect a further improvement in our 2007 pregnancy rates in women of these age groups.


So from this I gather that the trial is currently underway in Europe



> Since this study was formally registered as a clinical trial, we received innumerable requests from U.S.-based women to participate. Unfortunately, this study is, for cost reasons, only conducted in Europe. Patients, who wish to be considered for DHEA treatment in the U.S., have to become one of our patients. The potential advantage here, of course, is that you don't run a 50% risk of being treated with placebo.


So to avoid the risk of being a guineapig I suppose going to CHR is an option (funds permitting of course) ... but also these guys are willing to share their protocol with other doctors ...



> It is out of the same concerns that we persistently stress in responses to thousands of emails, that have reached us from all over the world on this subject that, even though DHEA (at least in the U.S.) is available without prescription, we strongly recommend against self-medication with DHEA for fertility purposes. DHEA should in our opinion only be taken under medical supervision. We, therefore, have also always stressed, and are repeating here again, that CHR physicians will gladly, and free of charge, communicate our treatment protocols to any physician who contacts us for this purpose. (http://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/about_chrupdate.html)


So I suppose if your doctor is willing to give it a go if you are there should be no problem(?).

emps ... I see you too have thyroid and pituitary problems ... now I know these aren't a thyroid disease but again these guys feel that people with autoimmune thyroid disease have decreased fertility



> This is actually very surprising because there is, by now, quite convincing evidence in the medical literature that women with many autoimmune diseases, indeed, suffer from decreased fertility (the correct medical term is fecundity; i.e., the ability to spontaneously conceive). Amongst the autoimmune diseases in which decreased fecundity has been demonstrated are systemic lupus erythematousus (SLE), rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, autoimmune thyroid disease, multiple sclerosis and others.


I dunno ... there's a lot of information on this site ... and I know it's early trial days and all that ... but I was told I'd have a 2-5% chance of being successful using my own eggs given my age and high FSH but according to these guys say that it could be as good as 16-25%
(http://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/treatment_pregnancy.html) ... and if the doctors at Reprofit (Czech Rep) are willing to supervise ........?

Will keep you all updated

dcon_blue
x
/links


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## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Hi Daisy

Yes they do actually say on their site that their figures aren't live births but clinical pregnancies ...



> The listed pregnancy outcomes reflect ongoing clinical pregnancy rates and not delivered pregnancies. The pregnancy rates are calculated as a percentage of embryo transferred, and not as a percentage per cycles started. Delivered pregnancy rates will be somewhat lower than clinical pregnancy rates and percentages, based on numbers of cycles started, will be lower than rates based on the numbers of egg retrieval performed. (http://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/treatment_pregnancy.html)


... but since you can't get a birth without a pregnancy  and since they are willing to communicate treatment protocols, free of charge to any physician who contacts them I feel as though it's worth me looking in to it further. I know it's not for everyone, and there are no guarantees ... I suppose I am still at the cup half full stage 

Ah well

dcon_blue
xx


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## janeup (Jan 15, 2005)

I really hope this works for you but as somebody who has just had a BFP with DE i just don't think I could go through the pain of possible miscarriage with my own eggs which I see as very likely at my age.  i wish you well with whatever you chose to do.


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## Empty2 (Aug 12, 2006)

Hi girls,

Just been on *Peer Support *  and there is a post on there called *dha?*

On there the girls are talking about *DHEA* as well, might be useful to pop along and see! 
Maybe this is something else to try dcon blue, I'm like you always thinking there has got to be away that I can succeed, don't give up hope! Sending you a hug 

emps
x


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## BG (May 23, 2006)

Hi All !!
I put a "BFN" on peer support a couple of days ago, as I had started bleeding on day 12 of IUI.  I have had one failed ivf...no eggs, 2nd was a BFP but miscarried at 6.5 weeks.  After a break, we decided to go for IUI.  I will be 43 in August, so time is running out.  Went to see a consultant who gave me a little bit of info on DHEA and said it may be on option for me, but my choice.  I decided to give it a try and started on 25mg each morning for 3 weeks prior to treatment.  Started on Menopur and increased my dosage gradually to 75.  I produced 9 follicles which is really too many, but because of my age and to increase the chances we left them all in.  Just got a BFP two days ago.  The staff at the hospital were pretty impressed with size of the follicles and how well I responded to IUI treatment.  Now I have no proof that DHEA helped, but it certainly did'nt seem to do me any harm.  Just taking a day at a time with this one, have my first scan week wednesday.  Who knows !!
Aly


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## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Hi Daisy 

I emailed SART and asked if CHR known by another name for the purposes of reporting statistics ... and apparently they are known as Medical Offices for Human Reproduction .. and they have reported stats for 2003-2005.

The figures for 2005 (which are non DHEA figs) show that 8% of cycles using fresh embryos from non-donor eggs for 43-44 yr olds resulted in pregnancies and the same 8% in live births.  Which (and I know you really can't compare clinics side by side) is higher than Cornell's 4.4% for live births (CCRM's live births for the same age group is 9.1%).

Anyway, I know I have to be realistic and think of the 92% failure rate ... but if DHEA is having an apparent positive effect on the number of live births for us oldies then at least it's something to observe and discuss.  

This is only my personal and naive opinion of course  ... but given that it's something like £13 for a two month supply of DHEA and the treatment protocol could be administered by my own existing fertility clinic/doctor (should they be willing to try this) ... I'm just wondering whether it's worth me trying it?  I'm in no way medically trained and so have no real knowledge ... only that which I come across on the web ... and so am interested in hearing any/all opinions.

dcon_blue


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## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Janeup and Aly ... what fantastic news for you both.  

I so hope you both stay healthy, happy and   

Love to you both

dcon_blue 
xx


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## dcon_blue (Apr 25, 2007)

Just got my reply from my completed "Prematurely Aging Ovaries Qualification Form" (well within their promised 48 hours)



> Considering your age of 44, and your elevate FSH, your chances with your own eggs are very slim. If you still would like to try, we will gladly help. As a first step, since you reside overseas, we would like you to call us at +001 212.994.4400 to arrange a phone consultation with one of our physicians.


OK ... I already knew my chances were 'slim' so no surprise there but they are willing to consider my case (which is more than some clinics would do). Don't suppose I'll loose anything by having a phone consultation ... 

dcon_blue


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi dcon_blue,

My money would always be on Cornell or CCRM.  CHR have done many fewer cycles with your age group compared to the others - I believe that is a very important factor.  However, stats are only stats I suppose.  Each individual could have a 0 or 100% chance of a baby - this is the difficult thing about applying the same criteria to everyone I suppose.  Bascially, you need to do a cycle to see what your response may be.

I would be interested to know what they say at your consultation.  I think it is great that they have responded so quickly and a consult would at least give you some more information so you could start making some decisions on your next move. 

I personally am still a bit sceptical about the benefits of DHEA and its affect on your body etc.  but would like to be convinced if I see any evidence.  I would love it to be of help.  It is not rated by Cornell and CCRM and as Cornell is one of the world's leading fertility research facilities, I am doubly sceptical.  I don't think that I know enough about it though so may be unduly prejudiced.

But you never know and I understand wanting to try anything that may be helpful.  It is so difficult to be in this position.  I know what this is like, having been there too.  

Wishing you the best.  

Daisy
x


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## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

I wonder if DHEA would work if you are TTC naturally, if supposdely it improves the quality of your eggs. What does improving quality mean, does it make chormosmal abnormalities less, or just stronger eggs whatever that may mean. Any idea.


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## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

some info i found, supposedly for the natural variety.
DHEA, dehydroepiandrosterone, 25 mg
60 Caps 
Product Code: 6371
DHEA body levels drop with age & lower levels correlate with disease states; it is critical to optimal body function. Of all the body’s hormones, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is found in the greatest amounts. Studies show that DHEA levels drop significantly in most men and women after age 35. Lower levels of DHEA correlate with increased incidence of diabetes, Alzheimer’s disease, senility, breast cancer and other diseases. It is a metabolic precursor to other hormones and is critical to the optimal function of almost every component of the body. We recommend that DHEA be taken once daily in the AM to mimic the body’s normal rhythm. Recommended dosage: 10 to 25 mg for women, 25 to 100 mg for men.


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## carina45 (Jun 28, 2007)

hi there, i'm 45 and very interested in taking DHEA although am trying to lose weight first then going to make an appointment for a consultation.  I am taking Zita West Vitafem vitamins and Zita West DHA (fish oils) and also Agnus Castus prior to ovulation.  Do you think it will be OK to carry on taking the vits if i embark on DHEA?

thanks for any advice


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

Ladies I considered DHEA as my consultant said it was worth a try but he couldn't presribe it as it was not a liscensed drug but he told me to google it and put UK and it come upo where you can buy it.  He also told me to  go to see Zita West about it.

I went to see Zita but she then told me to go and see her nutritionalist,Isabelle (whom I'd seen before) and then was given a fact sheet wiht some studies on it , and told they cannot recommend it or not recommended it but that people are using it.  Also you need to be off it for a while before cycling and it needs a few months to have a chance of working.
I asked my acupuncturist about it but he wasn't keen and then I didn't want to be putting more hormones in my body so passed on it.

Best of luck
L xx


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## redcajun (Jul 9, 2007)

daisyg said:


> Did you ever get the baby? I am jumping in late and who is Cornell
> Hi girls,
> 
> Don't be drawn in to this. Can't even find this clinic reporting in SART results. From what I know about them, they do not have great results at any age let alone over 40. Note they are talking about pregnancies NOT live births which I am not sure whether they have achieved at over 42.
> ...


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## Anne_7 (Mar 20, 2005)

Hi Ladies,

Sorry to intrude, but I just wanted to let you know that I am on my 7th ICSI cycle and the first taking DHEA.  I will be sure to let you know the outcome.  I am also for the first time taking steroids, gonal F and long protocol.  I was also on the pill for one month.

Will keep you posted of the outcome.

Love to you all.

Anne X


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## Anne_7 (Mar 20, 2005)

I got 15 eggs which was great, but I had the worse fertilising ever!  I got 5 that fertilised, one never made it 1x8 cell 1x6 cel 2x2 cell within 24 hours.  The 8 and 6 are way to big for 24 hours, must of been the steriods .  Fun and joke aside kinda dissapointed but should be happy that I do have 2x2 cells for transfer, which should be 4 cells by the time I get to hospital.


Love Anne X


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## Jo (Mar 22, 2002)

Good Luck Anne , may transfer go well and at the end of the 2ww you finally get your dream  

Love Jo
x x x


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## Anne_7 (Mar 20, 2005)

Thanks Jo,

How are you?  Hope all is well with you and DH hubby.

Love, Anne X


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## odette (Nov 3, 2006)

Hi Ladies

Today I'm 40 and one day - I guess I can start posting on this board now. 

Have a follow up on the 15th Aug at teh Hammersmith for a hydro before starting my 3rd round of IVF in Barcelona.

odettex


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## carina45 (Jun 28, 2007)

hello there, any hope for me? i'm 45 and trying to conceive naturally with my own eggs as i have a partner 14 years younger than me and would love to give him a child (i already have a 19 yo daughter).  What are my chances?

Would love to hear any advice, thanks


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## carina45 (Jun 28, 2007)

Can anyone tell me please if using DHEA, i know that it is recommended that you have a dosage of 75mg a day and the maximum length to take it is 4 months but do you take it all the way through? ie up to and including ovulation? the reason i ask is that it states on one of the sites i looked at that do not take while pregnant.  i take vitamins and agnus castus but i tend to take the agnus castus up to just before ovulation as that is what was recommende so i'm a little confused!


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## bottleofwater (Jun 19, 2007)

carina45 said:


> hello there, any hope for me? i'm 45 and trying to conceive naturally with my own eggs as i have a partner 14 years younger than me and would love to give him a child (i already have a 19 yo daughter). What are my chances?
> 
> Would love to hear any advice, thanks


It is impossible to know, do you know when your mothers menopause was, if your mother had her menopause at say 56 then your fertility will most likely drop off at 46 10 years before, that is declining, you will still be fertile.


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## JudithS (Feb 12, 2006)

carina45 said:


> hello there, any hope for me? i'm 45 and trying to conceive naturally with my own eggs as i have a partner 14 years younger than me and would love to give him a child (i already have a 19 yo daughter). What are my chances?


I also visit the website Mother35plus and there is a lady there who had a baby at age 47 with her own eggs. Her name is June47, if you want to have a look there.


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi everyone,
I hope you don't mind me asking you a question. A very close relative of mine has been trying to conceive for about 18 months and is 41. They had their first appointment with Gynaecologist with interest in feritlity today. They were a bit upset as the DR looked about 20 and apparently there wasn't a Consultant working on the clinic. My rel has had bloods done over a couple of months, the first month GP told her oestrogen was high (I wonder if he meant FSH?), the second month all was in normal range. He sent them home with number to ring for HSG and sperm sample request (sperm sample already done and perfect). Rel very upset as when they got home they read on sperm form ? Premature Ovarian Failure. This had never been discussed in the Consultation. I told her she should ring and query this. But I strongly recommended that they go privately. Her next appointment is in 3 months time. She doesn't seem convinced but she does have money. Do you ladies agree with me that being referred to a private clinic would get to the root of the matter quickly? I didn't have any option but to be treated privately but 3 months between appointments seems worrying to me.
Good luck to you all! Congratulations Judith!
Love Prija


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi Prija,

It is recommended that if you have not got pg after 6 months over 40 you should seek qualified fertility advice immediately.

If money is not an issue, your relative should immediately make a private appointment at a fertility clinic which specialises in fertility issues especially for women over 40.  It is pointless going to a gynae as they are generally not qualified to give the help she needs.

I would recommend she makes appointments for an initial consultation with a couple of the top clinics - i.e. ARGC, UCH, the Lister etc.  and get going now as she is losing time and she is 41.  As no pregnancy has been achieved in 18 months it is critical that she and her husband start proper testing now.  This would include sperm testing, HSG, Hysteroscopy, FSH, LH, E2 and prolactin on day 1-4 of her cycle, ovulation testing, thyroid, insulin resistance etc etc.  

It sounds as if the doctors treating her now are not experienced fertility consultants and are not giving her the information she needs or giving her a treatment plan.  Tell her not to waste any more time and get to a good clinic now.

Best wishes,

Daisy
x


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## allison kate (Aug 9, 2005)

At 41 I would be rushing to my nearest private clinic and getting the best advice possible.  Three months is far too long to wait, especially if she then has to have evasive tests done before they can start tx.

If they have the money then I would say it is their only way forward if they really want to have a family with their own 'contributions', if you know what I mean! 

However they should also know it is a tough and possibly long and winding road and they have to be prepared to go down it and take everything that is thrown at them.  With luck and determination they can realise their dreams and remain sane!  

Please pass on my best wishes and wish them the very best of luck   
Allison xx


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Hi girls,
I am so grateful to you for your advice. This is exactly what I thought. The person I am talking about is my own dear sister and it obviously hurts very much to know what she is facing. I think she is totally clueless and has no idea what to expect. I have just spoken with my DH about it and we think that I need to be honest with her about money, tests etc and help her decide if this is the way she wishes to go.
I will suggest the London clinics to her, but we live in the North East. I travelled to UCH for my treatments and I would like to think that she would be prepared to travel to London.
Thankyou again and lots of love and luck!
Prija

Congratulations on your twins, Daisy!


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## daisyg (Jan 7, 2004)

Hi Priija,

Well if travelling is an issues, perhaps she could go to CARE Nottingham for a first consultation??  I guess it is very hard for someone new to this to understand just how urgent it is to seek good advice early on - but travelling to London may be the only way.  

Perhaps she could go to a couple of consultations just to see what they say and then make a decision?  I think having you and your DH to support her and give her 'inside' information is incredibly important and I think you are doing a really good thing in trying to help her.

Good luck,

Daisy
x


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## prija (Apr 24, 2003)

Thankyou for all your advice Daisy!
Love Prija


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