# DE + DS vs Donor embryos



## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Hi girls

I'm going to be giving OEIVF a go, hopefully before xmas, but because of my age i'm already thinking what if i have to move on to donor eggs.  I'm still trying to get my head round loads of this stuff but being single DS is a definite in the equation but then there is still a choice between fresh eggs plus DS or frozen embryos.....(there aren't any other options i don't know about are there??!)

My question really is what are peoples thoughts on the pros and cons of either choice.  The one i have been advised to think about before is that with donor embryos these may possibly have been donated by a couple who have undergone ivf and have them left over....so in effect you're kinda having that couple's baby and there would be less chance or a much longer wait for an embryo that you might be looking for characteristic wise, with this there is also the chance of siblings if that couple went on to have children... Also with this choice there is the frozen element which i have also read differing views about....some say less successful, others say more success for older women.....but is there more chance of success than with DE + DS as they have already formed into embryos?

with DE + DS i guess you have more choice with choosing characteristics separately and putting them together but then  you may have a longer wait for an egg donor?  then you also have to synchronise with the donor, so there is more involvement on the physical/drugs side is that right?

Basically i'd just be interested to canvas peoples views on all the pros and cons of these two treatments and find out any thoughts and especially things i may not have thought about which are important to consider.

Thanks

GG X


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## wishingforanangel (Feb 6, 2009)

With embryo donation the chances are less than a fresh cycle from what IM in Spain stated. As to the wait in Spain...I don't think there is a wait in Spain but the clinic I am using right now, which is instito marques (spelling?) stated that the patients don't get to pick the donors if you are going to use a double donor. I think the clinic tries to match the donors to the patient though but being that I'm Chinese none of the donors will match me.

I chose to do embryo donation as I thought it would be easier than trying to cycle with a donor and two embryos would be transferred. IM stated that if a double donor cycle was occurring at the same time I was there, the clinic will use the fresh cycle but I would only be charged the embryo donation fee but no guarantee of 2 embryos being transferred. 

I suppose if you are really specific about what you want you could always try a fresh cycle using double donation in the States where you essential would be able to get whatever you want. Only problem is the expense and depending on if you can find a good doctor....course i'm not to hot to trot about the infertility doctors here in the States so I probably won't be able to give you a good perspective on doctors here.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi GG

I'm not an expert but as you will know I am considering donor embies too, as a back-up plan.  As far as I can see the main advantage with frozen embryos is the cost!  And I have also heard that they tend to do better than fresh in older women (don't know why that should be the case, but something to cling onto!)

The one advantage I can see of DE + DS is that you could import your DS from the ESB and that way you could have ID release sperm if that is important to you.  However, taking Reprofit as an example, I believe that DEIVF is 3900 euros (plus the cost of your sperm if you were importing it) whereas DFET is 1000 euros for two embryos or only 500 euros if you only want one put in.  Personally, I think from a financial point of view I would have to go with the DFET and hope that any resulting child can come to terms with never being able to trace his/her genetic father   (strangely, I'm not concerned about the use of an anon egg, since I would be fulfilling the mother role).

Certainly at Reprofit you are allowed to choose the characteristics of both your donors if you opt for DFET.  Prickly Hedgehog has just reserved two donor embryos and there seemed to be no waiting list at the moment, although I don't think she was too stringent in her required characteristics, so that probably helped (you might want to PM her as I don't think she reads the singlies board).  Also, I sure Suitcase will be along shortly to tell you more   . 

Good luck with your deliberations!

B xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Thanks girls

Yes Bethany Suity has already helped me a lot with this a while ago but i was asking kinda different questions then and it was what she said about donor embryos over here (mainly here rather than abroad i think) being left over from couples having IVF.  I'm not bothered about ID release sperm but i guess what i didn't want was someone else's 'child' if that makes any sense??   .  It would kinda feel like i was having someone else's dream/creation and i would have a child that would have two parents out there who were together and had conceived them but then not needed them for whatever reason...... It would especially worry me if i had tx over here and i could bump into them (highly unlikely i know but there's always a chance).  From what suity told me this is less likely abroad as they will often use left over eggs from cycles and fertilise them with sperm from the bank.  

I guess i would have to ask reprofit how they do it.  Is that something you have already asked?  I guess i possibly still might not want them to give me a 'couple's' embryo even if they happen to match the egg with what i ask for and then the sperm with what i ask for and they have an embryo that fits that brief.  I don't know, part of me is just of a mind that i want to get pregnant as soon as possible and get off this rollercoaster and i'll do whatever it takes for that to happen but the thought of potentially having someone else's 'left over baby' spooked me out. 

however if that's not really how they do it so much abroad then i needn't worry so much.  I guess i could give stepan my egg characteristics and my sperm characteristics and if he has an embryo that matches i'll go for DFET and it not i'll wait till my matching egg and sperm come up.  However, i think i've just talked myself out of reprofit as i know their wait list for DE is about 9/10 months so i'll have to think again about where to go.  Anyhoo going a bit do-lally here and getting ahead of myself again as i've not even tried OEIVF yet!! Gees way to drive myself even more nuts.!!

Right GG Bed!!!

GG x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Here I am    

Reprofit definitely don't use embryos created by other couples. The way they do it is that they have back up donors for most fresh cycles in case something goes wrong with the primary donor. In most cases nothing does go wrong so they take the eggs from the back up donor, fertilise them with sperm from their sperm bank and then offer them to people on the waiting list for DFET. You get to specify some basic characteristics of the egg/sperm donor and depending on how many criteria you have, this determines the waiting list time. eg if you just want brown hair/brown eyes and average height, you will prob be matched quite quickly. If you want to specify more details and include specific blood types (mostly important if you don't want to tell the child so the blood group matches yours) then you may wait 3-4 months for a match

DFET is significantly cheaper than a fresh cycle and the wait is shorter (at Reprofit at least) - so although success rates are lower you do need to think in terms of how many cycles you can do for the money - eg you can do 3-4 DFET for one fresh cycle so this maximises your chances of it working as most people are successful in 3 or less attempts (broad generalisation but seems to hold true unless you have other issues which remain undiagnosed - eg immune issues etc)

I don't know much about other clinics but there was a worrying report about a Spanish clinic (IM in Barcelona if I recall rightly) offering donor embryos from couples where the couples had not given permission for those embies to be used by someone else. So do your research carefully on how the embies came to be offered...

And yes, as I said before, I think in UK there is no 'system' for creating donor embies, so the only way you would get some is if a couple gave permission for them to be used and this would mean that there were potentially full siblings out there somewhere. 

An interesting question to ask Reprofit would be what happens if the create say 6 embryos from a fresh donor all using the same donor sperm - do they then share these amongst 3 couples/people wanting DFET? In which case if all 3 were successful, the 3 children would be full siblings. It would of course be difficult to trace the siblings, but they would be out there somewhere (prob in the UK/US judging by how many people travel to Reprofit for DFET)
This may not be an issue to worry about, but is worth thinking about nonetheless

With fresh donor cycle you have a little more control in that you can choose more details about egg and sperm donor and if you choose you can import ID release sperm (I did not do this because I wanted a 'level playing field' - ie if the egg donor was anon, I felt it better for the sperm donor to be the same, but I know other women feel they want to know as much as poss about sperm donor precisely because they don't know much about egg donor....it's a personal choice)
But it is much more expensive and the wait at Reprofit is now 10-11 months I think. 

So, pros and cons:

DFET
Pros - cheap/cost effective, shorter waiting list, easier to arrange, only need to be away for 1 day for transfer (depending on where you go of course!)
Cons - limited choice of donor characteristics, may be full siblings out there who you cannot trace (need to check with Reprofit/clinic on this one), success rates apparently lower (although I would not place too much reliance on success rates - notoriously unreliable at the best of times)

Fresh DE cycle
Pros - more choice of donor, can use ID release sperm, higher success rates (see note above however)
Cons - expensive, long wait

re drug protocol - it's pretty much the same regardless of DFET or fresh cycle - you need oestrogen for lining and progesterone for pregnancy support and that's it unless you have immune or other issues. You may need the pill to synchronise cycle for fresh DE, whereas with FET if you can be flexible on dates to travel then you can work with your own cycle....

Hope this has helped, it's a tough decision to make (and one I hope you don't need to make anyway!)

Best of luck
Suitcase
x


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Suity - thanks for that, it's a really good summary of pros and cons!  Knew we could rely on you to come along  .

Re/ the drugs, do you really need oestrogen?  Would your body not produce that anyway (unless you are menopausal)?  If I end up going down this road, I was thinking of trying a natural cycle, which I presume would be an option?

B xx


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Hmm, not sure Bethany - as far as I know everyone doing DE IVF and DFET is on oestrogen tablets. I recall even for the FET I did with my own eggs/embies on a natural cycle 2 years ago I still needed progynova tabs....but you could check with clinic on this?

Suitcase
x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

I had an attempt of DE's without any drugs as the lining was thining despite drugs and high oestrodial blood levels.  The cons thought that the drugs might be having a paradoxical effect on the lining.

I have tried IM oestrogen injections
progynova (tablets)
HRT patches
patches and progynova combined.

Good Luck


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## RichmondLass (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi GG

Re IM, my impression from my consultation was certainly that the frosties are leftovers from couples' (or singlies' I guess) treatment.  That was how it was described to me and all we discussed re quality etc.  At no time was purposefully creating frosties discussed but can't say it doesn't happen.  They do run a back up egg donor and i woudn't be surprised if those eggs are harvested and used for something.  I also wouldn't be surprised that, with the high turnover of treatments, they may position it as a hand picked donor specially for you, but in actual fact you get the eggs of one of the women that's ready that day!  I never asked that in detail as it didn't occur to me at the time.  I also didn't ask if eggs are shared between more than one recipient - I was told she produced seven and five fertilised, but could there have been more Or would that be malpractice.

Anyway.  The clinic stores frosties for a year and then sends you a form (i got mine in July) asking if you a. want to keep them on ice b. want them destroyed or c. would like to hand them over to the clinic to do what they see fit.  That is either to use them for research or put them up for adoption. I'm sure that's pretty similar to most clinics.

I discussed quality and was told that they only offer good quality original frosties for adoption but they do, of course, suffer with freezing and there is no guarantee they will thaw.  Hence lower success rate (c 45% v up to 60 %) and lower cost.  i went for fresh to give myself one good shot at my advanced age which cost 8keuro.  i think the cost for one FET was c 4,500 euro but they do a three treatment deal for I think 11k euros.

I wondered if they were less good quality as you are getting top quality fresh donors and with people undergoing treatment I guessed that they were likely to be less top quality and could be any age, but was told that they screened them for quality. That would probably be worth exploring further.  Myguess would be that if they were frosties, say, from a women in her 40s even if they had been graded well before freezing, they wouldn't be offered?  Really don't know. I'd want to know this and I think at IM and Spain in general you probably wouldn't get detailed answers about the frosties.  Re characteristics you only get the most basic detail with fresh: skin, hair, eyes, height, weight, but no idea what you'd get with frozen.  If you want dark hair and eyes you are probably on to a winner - if you want blue eyes and blonde hair, maybe not so much.

That would also be my concern over UK frosties - they are not likely to be young donors.

I personally have a slight issue in my mind with full sibling (s) out there and that that embryo had been created to fulfil the dream of one/two other people - I think it's a more complicated story to tell your LO and harder to get over anonymity - are there full siblings they'll never meet?  What if they had been the embryo picked for transfer and not their sibling? why didn't the 'parents' come back for them etc. Slightly less complicated with fresh as 'I went to special hospital and asked them to help me make you' and those donors were literally donating and not 'making a baby' - and might be half siblings but no full siblings - does it matter?  Don't know. 

On the other hand those embryos exist and are not wanted so, like child adoption, you are giving that embryo a home and a child the chance of life that may otherwise be wasted.  HOWEVER I may have to get over it all as financially I could probably never go for fresh again in Spain so if my frosties fail, I may be heading down the FET route.  That is if I can ever pluck up courage to go for number two!

At the end of the day, once that baby arrives you forget about its origins as it's yours.  Oh and i don't think there are any waiting lists.

Interestingly, as an aside, my friend's eight year old said Baby G looked 
Spanish and asked her if Baby G's 'daddy' (he doesn't know origins) was Spanish.  I wonder if he had overheard something we'd said in conversation.  But I have to say he does look Spanish!
RLx


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

It's a minefield isn't it when you start to think about the siblings side of things...I hadn't even really thought about that until this thread but now of course it occurs to me that my sperm donor in Czech may well have had other children (either of his own or through donation) and since there are no rules on number of children a Czech donor can be responsible for, this could be potentially even dozens!
And then if my egg donor has donated before (or does later) there could also be half siblings through her as well

I guess because both donors are anon, we'll simply never know and that's just something we (me and my children) will have to deal with 

I don't worry at all about how I'll feel - I know they're mine 100%, but I do worry a bit how the children might feel knowing there are potentially lots of half sibs out there...cross that bridge when I come to it I guess   

Suitcase
x


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## indekiwi (Dec 23, 2008)

Just a very quick story about embryos available for adoption in this country - I know someone who had tx, conceived her family and subsequently split from her partner.  When it came time for the frosties to be destroyed or saved for a further year, she and her ex partner agreed to donate them.  The people that adopted the frosties were also successful.  My friend and her ex have not told their children, who are still young, and are not sure whether to do so.  All the children concerned are the same gender, so no possibility of offspring in the remote chance that two of them ever met and fell for each other.  My friend and her ex have yet to decide whether to go on the open ID register.  My friend was very certain that her family making days were done, and her ex has gone on to have more kids in a subsequent relationship, so neither wanted to use the frosties.  I guess the upshot of all this is that those embryos would certainly have been destroyed had they not been donated, and that amid the sadness of a broken relationship, something very good has come to pass.  Such altruism is a rare gift indeed.   

A-Mx


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## lulumead (May 29, 2008)

thanks for this discussion...really good points that I hadn't thought about. I'm beginning to think about the DE v's donor embryo's question, so useful to hear all of this.
xx


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Interesting story, Inde - I wonder if the adopters of the frosties are planning to tell their children of their origins?  And how would those children feel about knowing that they almost didn't exist?  I do think embryo adoption is in some ways very similar to "regular adoption", in that you are offering a good life to someone who needs nurturing - and in the case of EA, you may literally be offering life to a child who would otherwise not have existed - or possibly that same genetic child may still have existed but been born to a different mother.  All very interesting moral issues.

RL - are you considering going for no. 2 then?  How exciting   .

B xx


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## blueytoo (Oct 5, 2003)

Bethany - just to add that as well as donating eggs four times, I also donated embryos to couples at my clinic during two cycles. So my son has a variety of half-siblings out there somewhere, both from my eggs and from my embryos. He knows about it because it was explained to me by the counsellor at the clinic that when he becomes an adult and wishes to marry he will need to check the register to ensure he is not related to his future wife! She was very adamant that he be told about it for this reason and that was fine with me as it makes sense.


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## indekiwi (Dec 23, 2008)

Bethany, my friend knows that the recipients are planning to tell their kids, hence she and her ex are considering whether they should go on the open ID register.



> And how would those children feel about knowing that they almost didn't exist?


My off the cuff response on this is that your question has a much wider application. Many people are born into this world after the mother chooses between terminating a pregnancy and having the child, with the child coming to know about this decision in time. These were the circumstances behind my own birth. I'm sure there are many different thoughts on the matter. My own is that I'm sad that my mother had to make such a decision, but I don't dwell on the fact that I might not have existed. I wonder, with respect to embryo adoption, whether the offspring might perhaps feel the same? 

A-Mx


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow, Inde - that must have been a pretty difficult piece of information to take on board   .

When you delve into it, I suppose that everyone's existence is more or less by chance, even in less sad circumstances.  My grandmother nearly died in childbirth several years before she had my mum.  Obviously if she had, my mum and I would not have existed.  And if I look at LO, he is the product of my egg and my KD's sperm conceived at a specific moment - and if I had not had a miscarriage 3 months before LO was conceived, he would not have existed.  And if I had met a different KD, he would not have existed.  And if my life had taken a different route and I had met a DH, he would not have existed.  In all those cases, I possibly would now have another baby, but it would not be LO.  And, I suppose, even with a "conventional" couple making babies through BMS, if they decide to go to a party one night instead of staying in and having BMS, their particular LOs may not have existed (although they probably would have had others).

So maybe in that sense, embryo adoption children are in fact not so different from everyone else? 

Strange and somehow scary thoughts ...   

B xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Gosh this really is throwing up some interesting thoughts and discussion, i'm really glad i asked as it's stuff i hadn't thought of and felt a bit dumb asking as i thought it was stuff i should know.

Thanks for all your input, as usual suity you have given a very comprehensive and really useful answer, so thanks for all that.

Wow, there's so much to think about isn't there, it really can blow your mind man!! (feel like i should be stoned talking about the meaning of life and what came first the chicken or the egg!) need a philosophy, ethics and sociology degree to even begin to get your head round what we're all doing!  God why couldn't i just mr might be alright and do it the easy way....    .  Although relationships have their own issues so let's not dwell on that one...and as you've illustrated inde if you were in a relationship but needed help to conceive it can still be fraught with decisions and dilemmas.....

I think the point about embryo adoption being similar to 'regular' adoption, giving a child a life and being able to nurture that child to birth etc has helped assuage my fears slightly about having someone else's child/dream....  but it's all a helluva lot to take on board and think about isn't it...

GG x


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

GG - re FET I think it depends which country/clinic you are using

In the UK you are pretty sure to be using embies which have been donated by another couple and hence this is embryo adoption and more similar to regular adoption in a way 

Overseas (at least for sure in Czech/at Reprofit and potentially also elsewhere) you are more likely to be using embryos which are created by the clinic specifically for the purpose of providing tx to those who want it, and this I don't personally see as embryo adoption (donors are paid for their services and it's essentially the same as fresh DE tx but with frozen embryos...)

Either way you have the sibling/half sibling issue - in the UK you/the child may be able to trace those sibs, overseas this is highly unlikely

You're right that this kind of blows your mind....one thing I would say (if I haven't already as I can be rather 'talkative'!!) is don't expect to have all the answers before you start tx, at least from my personal experience I'm kind of still figuring it out a bit as I go....of course I knew fundamentally I was 'ok' with DE tx, but the deeper questions are still coming up...

good luck with the thinking...
Suitcase
x


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi girls

To lighten the tone a bit, I must tell you that I have been seeing some significant car number plates recently!  I was waiting at a red light a couple of days ago and noticed the car in front of me had "BFP" on its number plate.  A good omen you might think   .  Then today, I saw one on the motorway overtaking me with "FET" on it, and then in the car park I saw one with a "CZ" sticker on the back (like a "GB" sticker - I'm sure you all know what CZ stands for...).

Putting it all together, I wonder if someone is trying to tell me something?!   

B xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

I know what you mean bethany, last sunday when i was at an allen carr stop smoking clinic i saw a car with IUI as its number plate!! it confused me tho as i'm thinking of having IVF next and it made me think maybe i should be considering another go at IUI!!.....aaaaaagggghhhhhhh silly superstitions...  

GGxx


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## chubby2 (Dec 4, 2010)

Just to comment on an earlier post, DFET in the UK are from couples where the woman is under 36 and the man is under 45, as with egg donation.  I believe this is HFEA regulation, hence an improved success rate for older recipients using these Tx.


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