# Apparently my pain was not 'significant'



## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Help. I am driving myself a bit mad with this, and need to let it out. This is a bit of a tome and you may not get to the end! 

10 days ago I got the results of my degree, a course which I sweated through while simultaneously coping with IF. Good news! I got a 2:1 and was just one mark off a First! I am so proud! 

However...... here comes the shadow of IF......
In my 2nd year, which was the peak of our IF difficulties (although the IF and tx started before I even began the degree)  I submitted Mitigating Evidence due to the IF and tx etc etc.

I have subsequenly found out that the Mitigating EVidence Committee considered my evidence and decided that my circumstances were not significant enough to have affected my marks. if they had classed my circumstances as 'Significant', my tutors may have been able to make allowances for my situation and awarded me the First, especially as I was only 1% off.

I am absolutely gutted. Its not about the marks, as I am absolutely swelling with pride at getting such a great mark despite the circumstances. It is about the rest of the world, yet again, not understanding, or choosing to not understand, just how devastating and life-changing IF is, and the pain that we all go through.

Between the end of my first year, and the end of my second year, the following happened to me:

*****
I had 3 lots of IVF/ICSI.
1 of which was a BFN, and 1 of which I was sent to EC despite not having enough follies because the clininc recognised what a desperate case I was. 
Every appointmnet I went to I was always on the brink of the tx being cancelled because of my poor response..it was an incredible rollercoaster.

One of my tx cycles the clinic messed up my drugs so I was simultaneously pursuing a  complaint against them and planning my next cycle.

At this time DH had 2 surgical ops for sperm, one of which found no sperm at all and the other found only 5 sperm. He was devastated.

DH subsequently suffered internal bleeding in his testicle which resulted in massive pain and 2 visits to casualty and months of subsequent pain, as his testicle swelled up to the size of a fist.

At this time we were also advised there was nothing more that could be done for us without both donor egss and donor sperm.

I was in a most awful state. i was lying in bed awake every night crying, and wondering how I was going to be able to carry on with life, let alone my degree course. I sought counselling but stopped after 6 weeks because I couldn't cope with the appointmnets on top of the clinic appointments.

*******
One of the reasons this is eating me up is that I KNOW that having the tx affected my marks. To me, it is laughable to even think that there was anyway it could not have done! Not only that, but I can think of a specific assessment wher i was too unwell with the drugs to go around the library. The main criticism that was given of my work was that I hadn't used enough books! This alone shows me that if it wasn't for the If I would have got that extra 1%.

I am really sorry for waffling on and sounding so obessive about this. Like I say this is REALLY NOT about getting the First, its about the fact the some unknown beaurocratic committee has had the audacity to believe that infertility is not significant enough a trauma. 

Its about the fact that yet again, I am confronted by the horrible truth that the rest of the world will never understand what we go through, and just how far-reaching infertility is.
Its about the fact that infertility has devastating, profound and far reaching effects on people's lives. Its about the relationships that suffer. Its about the mental and physical health that suffer. Its about the isolation and lonliness that we suffer.

My tutor and Dh want me to appeal, but the appeal process involves the most unbelievable amount of interrogation by several people, and ....guess what...I cannot find the strength in me to drag up all the emotions that I've tried so hard to move on from.

On the other hand, I get waves of feeling so amazed at what I have achieved, and have the immense satisfaction of knowing that my marks are all my own...without anyone making any allowances! 

Sorry to have waffled so long...this was the only place I could put this where I thought others would not judge me. Some of my friends think I am just being 'sour-grapes' at not getting the same mark as them, but it really, honestly is not about that. 

Hope people understand.


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## emmag (Mar 11, 2007)

After 2 years of IF, and with a waiting list of 3 years for IVF, I realised I could go and get a degree while I waited.  I did the first year, and then we decided to try IUI while we waited. It failed, and it screwed me up big time. We decided to go for IVF. I had to have a reasonably majorish surgery to allow me to have the IVF. I thought "screw the degree" and applied for mitigating circs in order to get a year off. They allowed this, and in the end, I never went back. 

My point is this... I cannot overstate the respect I have for you, finishing your degree, let alone acheiving a 2:1, with all you went through. There is no way I could have done that. You have shown fortitude and determination by the truckload.

Whether or not you appeal the mitigating circs is entirely your decision. However, I personally cannot believe they have said this to you. You deserve a first. Are these people nuts? Can I go in your place? I'll tell them!  

Whatever you decide, it sounds like you have a super supportive husband (when I think what mine had to go through for that year of my degree course!...), a supportive tutor, and a shiny new degree!!!!  

xx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Emma

Thank you so much for your lovely words, they mean so much to me!

This is the only place where I feel that people will understand why this bugs me so much! Like, I say, my Uni friends just don't understand what I went through.

My dad has pointed out that the Committee had probably never come across these kind of circumstances before, and therefore there was no precedent to compare it to. This bothers me more in a way, because it means there is the potential for them to use MY case as a precedent for other people.

On the one hand I want to fight for justice for the whole infertility world! On the other, I recognise the importance of not undoing all the positive progress I have made emotionally. Rock and hard place!

At the moment I am considering not appealing, (can't face the interviews and panel-hearings) but writing a letter to them after graduation, explaining my feelings.


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## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Ermey,

First and foremost. 

CONGRATULATIONS! to you on passing your degree. You are right to rejoice in your acheivements in getting there, in spite of your IF nightmare.

I completely understand when you say you are not sure whether to appeal or not and you are completely justified in not taking on the fight for the rest of the IF world, but part of me does feel that until we do stand up and fight it will never get better.

Taking a stand now may not do you any good but might just make the difference to some one else. Having said that I know that you must look after yourself and dh above all else and perhaps the right thing to do is to write that letter. Although have you thought that it might be worth writing it sooner rather than later, then if they do reconsider your grade, you won't miss out on the first.

When I did my degree, I missed taking my finals due to appendicitis. They decided that I did not need to do the exams and awarded me the degree based on my previous results. It just makes me think that if they knew even the medical facts and implications, let alone the emotional nightmare we go through they may just reconsider their decision. 

Not sure I have helped at all, but wanted to offer support to you.

Vicki
x


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi Ermey,

First of all - well done you! 

I just lost a longer reply to you, willl be coming back to rewrite it with proper congratulations and to have a rant later this evening!

Meanwhile,

                 

Love Jq xxx


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Firstly congrats on your degree, you're amazing  I doubt I could have passed a driving test whilst I was undergoing treatment let alone take a degree.

There are a number of psychological studies that have found that the stress levels of infertile women and those undergoing IVF are equivalent to women with cancer, Aids or heart disease. 

I'd hope that when presented with a number of clinical studies showing this that they'd have no choice but to reconsider (and [email protected]@dy well apologise whilst they're about it!).  

I entirely understand your concern about undoing the progress that you've made - perhaps a half way house could be considered. You could write explaining your position and enclose some decent clinical data (courtesy of Google or even your clinic) clearly demonstrating quite how damned stressful the whole miserable business is and ask them to comment on their ill informed decision.

Maybe it would be a waste of time (I have little experience of the academic world so am probably talking tosh) but maybe it wouldn't and you might just make a difference to not only your result but that of others.

No matter what you decide   on your remarkable achievement and have another  from me.

flipper


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi Ermey,

I'm back with my more detailed response! Funnily enough, some of Flipper's comments echoed those I made earlier and lost but will will retype below!

Firstly, I am not usually lost for words as you will know from my lengthy posts,  but right now I can hardly express how brilliantly you have done.  (Need to resort to these smiley things! ) I think Flipper has beat me to it to say a driving test pass would have been a major result, never mind a [email protected]@dy good degree! You are a total star. *You have been so strong, clever and inspirational. * Major respect to you! 

As well as feeling so pleased for you and admiring your great achievement  I am so angry that you have been turned down by the "exceptional circumstances" committee. 

Here is the rant I promised!.....

 It's not even as though you just scraped through to a 2.1 and want a major upgrade, you only missed your deserved First by 1%! Just how much pain do they expect you to suffer to award that measly difference? A nuclear holocaust maybe? (Sorry, rein my anger in here Jq!)

I write as someone who is currently marking Higher Education (HE) coursework. I admit I am new to this as I am only just marking the first cohort of students on a module I teach on new a Foundation Degree and I am new to HE. But I don't believe the marking is totally scientific. Sure, I have guidelines, but I think another lecturer would award a few more or less points than I do, and I believe that the second marker will only challenge me if I am wildly out. In other words I believe that if different people had marked your work, you might have gained that extra 1% without an appeal. I wonder how the HE institutions regard such marginal differences?

Please know that I am not saying that I think you should appeal, that must be entirely your own decision. The mere thought of having to present a case to a bunch of potentially cold academics....! My next remarks are offered only as it sounds like you have not yet made a final decision? Maybe my ideas will help? But you have probably already thought of them.

First of all I was going to suggest, as Flipper has done, that you quote academic research. Play them at their own game! You might find suitable published material on the internet. You could also quote HFEA material. Our own MM may also recommend published resources?

Maybe you could present a written document on the day, or in advance of an appeal? This could minimise the amount you have to say on the day. In a written document you could quote as Flipper and I suggest above. You could add some "evidence" of your personal experience, perhaps by quoting some of the posts you have made here on FF or by adding a personal statement? (If you decide not to appeal, but to write the letter you mention, all of these things could go in the letter or be appended to it.)

Do you have to face the "interrogators" alone? (You probably know that it is common practice in work disputes/tribunals etc to be allowed a rep, e.g from the union.) Having somebody with you could make you feel better able to cope. If you could discuss your position with an ally or rep beforehand, maybe they could prompt you if the stress of the situation makes you forget some of the things you need to say? Maybe better still if they can speak for you at times? If you are allowed such a supporter/rep, what about a personal tutor or the university counsellor? You may need to brief them beforehand, especially if you have not much or even at all discussed IF issues with them in the past. IF issues may be new to them too. (Your "briefing" of them could include giving them the sort of material Flipper and I suggest.) Surely at least the counsellor with his/her background and training can then describe the experience of major stress you have born?

Sweetheart, I have the utmost respect for your achievement. In my book you are definitely *FIRST CLASS.* Go celebrate!        

All credit to you! Lots of love

Jq xxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Ahhhhh thanks so much all for your lovely replies, which all touched me so much, and brought a tear to my eye.  

I had a 30 minute chat yesterday with a Student Advisor.

Apparently, I cannot appeal against the way they have 'graded' my mitigating circumstances, there is no procedure for this whatsoever. 

There are 3 categories for every type of mitgating circumstance possible:
Serious
Significant
Limited.

I was apparently classified as Significant not Serious (i got it the wrong way round in my original post, but the issue remains the same). 

The most serious category is reserved for 'Life and Death' situations.... people facing terminal illness, bereavment etc.

So here lies the perennial problem for the IF world. I can see that my circumstamces are not the same as being told I m about to die! I can also recognise that if my Dh died it would be the worse thing imaginable to me, and I wouldn't swap that for the IF in a million years. So yes, in that respect I can see why they decided that infertility was not as serious as bereavment.

However..... this still bugs me, because i Know that what DH and I have been through/are going through, is a form of bereavement. I have been grieving for 5 years! I have struggled through a sense of profound loss. Unlike 'normal' recognisable bereavments, no-one can see my loss...I have no photos, no memories. What i have lost is a loss of a future, a loss of my sense of identity, my social role. As we all know, to the rest of the world this loss is small compared with death.

However I know what I have been through will never be resolved, never totally come to terms with, and for this reason although i can see that infertility is not the same as losing a loved one (with the exception of miscarriage of course) I still feel that its ramifications and implications for the individual are equally far-reaching and profound, and doubly complicated.

This just emphasises to me again what a totally unique and isolating problem infertility is.

Apparently I can appeal on the grounds that I was stilll affected by my situation in the 3rd year but did not submit eveidnce because I was feeling too fragile. However, this is not of interest to me because as I mentioned, I cannot appeal against the categorisaion of my circumstances, and it is this that really matters to me, because I feel that their procedure are obviously stupidly black and white, and very rigid, and for me this is not about a mark its about making the point that there are some circumstances that are not conventionally seen as 'life and death' but are equally affecting.

In some respects I think writing the letter without appeling is better becaue it gives me more freedom to make my point, and also shows them that i'm not just stamping my foot and shouting 'no fair' because i didn't get my first.

Thanks once again to everybody for taking such a concern in this matter. I will let you know what I decide.

xxxxxxxxxxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Ermey, 

A chum of mine recently saw a clinical psychologist for a referral to counselling that her employer would pay for. The psychologist was eminently sensible, as she said to my chum, "Well of course you're struggling, you've endured one of the most significant forms of bereavement there is". In preparation for my workshops, it was bereavement focused texts that gave me the most help in finding a model through which we could make sense of what was happening to us. A few times in this country a friend of mine has organised rememberance services for childless women, and critically, attendance was not governed by whether or not you had ever been pregnant; it is the loss of hope, of an profound experience, that we are mourning. As a generation of women making decisions like none before us about embryos, frosties and donors, because the medicine is way off in front of the ethics, we are dealing with emotional issues the complexity of which has never been faced by any previous generation.... 

I could go on, I feel so strongly about this stuff....

If you need a reader for your letter, please ask....

Love and a fiery belly this morning, 

MM xx


ps the TUC is recommending that all British firms give employees ten days compassionate leave per year for fertility appointments, and some are doing it (Asda), but my employer, the good old civil service wouldn't do it for me. Maybe you could mention that perhaps it is time, following the TUC lead, that Universities established protocols for dealing with fertility issues, given that more than 1 in 6 couples are facing problems, and many students are now 'mature' ones with lives......


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## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Maggie Mae said:


> "Well of course you're struggling, you've endured one of the most significant forms of bereavement there is".


MM - Your psychologist sounds really good. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone (outside us) acknowledge that this is what we go through. Thank you for validating our situation in this way.

Amazing step forward for the TUC, wish more were like it.

You truly do have fire in your belly today.

Ermey, sounds like you had a good chat with the student adviser, I hope a letter will help you feel like you have made your point to them.

Vicki
x


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## jq (Nov 14, 2006)

Hi all,

Ermey, how frustrating is that limited 3 ways of categorising? 

I am still surprised that something even the board accepted as "significant" cannot gain at least 1% increase in marks. Otherwise why bother to have 3 grades of mitigating circumstances? If it is as simple as yes, it's enough to warrant mitigation/no, it isn't, then only 2 grades are needed?!?!

Within a 3 grade scale, surely it should be that for "serious" issues a major % of additional marks would be available if the board could see other evidence that a student would have done better? The exact % awarded could be at the discretion of the board, up to a maximum. At the other end of the scale then "limited" mitigating circumstances could lead to a smaller extra %. In the middle, ("significant") obviously a middling % of extra marks could be awarded. Given that the margins between bands are quite wide, whether somebody actually went up a whole class would then depend on what actual % extra was awarded. So some people could be awarded say, 5%, and not actually jump up a class, whereas somebody like Ermey could be awarded a smaller % and still go up a class.

Surely this is not rocket science? (And even if it is, maybe Universities have rocket scientists who could work it out? )

We respondants to Ermey's post obviously feel very strongly about this and so I am wondering whether FF as an organisation should attempt to do something? It would not help Ermey get a First, but it may help future students facing IF/TX. From what Ermey is saying, I don't think she is after a personal victory (much as she deserves it) but is looking to change things for the better for all students facing IF/TX. So this is not just about Ermey's deserved First, it is about recognising the impact of IF on us all.

Funnily enough I have just received a pm from Tony, (FF founder) telling me about the aims of FF. I can't remember the exact words, but one aim is about raising awareness about IF issues. Maybe in pursuit of this aim FF could write to the Higher Education Authority Council? (Or whatever it is called, I forget.) *What do others think?* My feeling is that if members identify an issue that warrants some action, we should ask the FF directors to take it on. (Given that the directors are volunteers, they have limited time, but they can delegate to member-volunteers to act on behalf of us all.)

Back to you Ermey. Like MM, I would be more than willing to help hone your letter. (I know that another board member found this kind of support helpful when complaining to her GP practise) So if that would be of interest, pm me and we can exchange email addresses.

Loads of love, Ermey. Hope you have found the energy to celebrate! You deserve a big celebration you First Class person you! 

Jq xxxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Gad to help in any way, JQ, 

MM xxx


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Ermey, just wanted to send you my heartfelt congratulations on your results. Considering your circumstances you have achieved a marvellous result - I am so sorry its been tainted by the eejits who deem that IF is not significant enough to have far reaching effects in every aspect of our lives.

I don't know what you intend to do, I do know I feel very angry, disappointed and shocked on your behalf - that once again with a big slap in the chops the 'others' out there don't recognise the impact of IF on the very core of our existance - I want to scream in frustration for you!

Whatever you decide you know that we are all with you every step of the way.

Massive hugs, and hoping that none of the academics who decided this for you ever have to face what you have been through.

Love 
Emcee x


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi everyone

have hada a very busy couple of days so not managed to get on here properly.

I am absolutely touched to the core with the concern and passion that you guys have shown about this. I can't tell you how nice it is to know that I am not just being oversensitive.

I have been thinking about this over the last couple of days and still feel inclined to write a letter. however am wary about going in with big guns blazing as I don't want to to put them too much on the defensive. I want them to be open to my viewpoint. Also, I am aware that I am inclined to get hot-headed about things I perceive as an injustice and then right calm down, and in the past I have slightly regretted how I have handled things so i want to take thhis a little slowly.

The other problem for me is that over the last few days I have been feeling a lot more raw and churned up aout the IF, even to the point of lying awake at night with the bad old feelings of fear and isolation that I haven't feel to this extent for a good few months. I need to be careful that my feelings about the mitigating evidence stuff don't cause a setback in my emotional progress, which has been hard earned!

So.... I am going to take a little time about this and go slowly into this one with some careful thought. 

I cannot stress enough how useful i have found the input and support you guys have given me. I will let you know what i decide.

Hugs to all.
xxxxxxxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Ermey, 

Just a thought; would putting all the feelings you have into the letter, and then editing it so that you make your points really well, help you to offload, and shift some of the recurring feelings you have?

Love, 

MM xxxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi MM  

I suspect so. I am worried that I am getting 'stuck' in the same cycle of feelings and unless I sound off to the powers that be I am going to stay stuck!

I am collating some of my thoughts bit by bit, those that i've expressed here on FF, and some from my journal. Have also a found a really useful para from the BICA about IF patients experiencing similar levels of grief to other types of profound loss. This has really encouraged me to write the letter but ...

Problem is...it hurts!!! because it means re-living all the emotions I thouht I had processed.

Thanks for being such a sweetie.


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## kitykat (Sep 21, 2006)

Hi Ermey,

Butting in from elsewhere - I lurk occasionally. I supervise degree students and having read your post , I will take my place on one of these panels if I am asked in the future. I cannot believe they can say that IF/treatment is not stressful. There is plenty published and they should be ashamed of themselves for not looking at this more thoroughly. I hope you find the strength to complain - it might help you to feel better in the long-run - I know from experience that this is not always the case. You might un-do that precendent though. 

Good luck and congrats on your degree - a brilliant achievement (and I am not taking into account the other stresses when I say that)

Love Kitykat
XX


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi everyone

Just to let you know that I have sent a letter to the Mitigating Evidence Committee, I have asked them if they are aware that research shows that IF people suffer similar emotional impact to people terminal illness, and genuine and profound grief similar to that of bereavement.

I have managed to quote stuff at them to back this up, but have also politely explained this from a personal point of view too.

I have also told them that due to the complexity of IF tx and the length of time these situations cover, that it is not realistic to expect students going through IF t be able to adequately explain every aspect of how IF and TX affects them, especially in view of the intensely personal aspect of physical treatment. (we are talking aout the reproductive system after all!)

I have asked for an assurance that in future IF will be taken more seriously, and that it should in future come under the most 'serious' category of mitigating circumstances.

It was a long letter, but I didn't feel I was able to leave any of these points out, and in the end felt it wouldn't do any harm for them to read it all! 

It has taken me all this time to write as it was very difficult to get the balance of not sounding like a hysterical over-emotional woman, but also conveying just how deeply distressing IF is, and I had to keep going back and editing it.  It also churned up loads of emotions that I thought I had dealt with.

I am glad to be rid of the thing now! Graduation is tomorrow so I will be able to enjoy that without the whole business hanging over me.

Thanks so much to you all for your wonderful support and for really understanding and encouraging me. It has meant such a lot to have your messages.

I will let you know when/if I get a reply. I am not expecting to get the answer I would like, but in the end I felt I had a resposibility to try!

love to all

E xxx


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

Ermey, 

I think it is genuinely brilliant that you have been able to write this letter, and, I am sure it the fact that you've got it out of the way will free you up to really enjoy your graduation tomorrow. GO GIRL!! You deserve it!!!

Love, 

MM xxx


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Ermey,

You ROCK girl...  

Just wanted to say that you are such an inspiration to many of us here, even though this letter has not been without some personal angst and has dragged up some of the stuff you thought you had laid to rest. 

It was a very courageous thing to do to confront them with the 'evidence' so to speak and tell them how it is for you and many others. 

My heartfelt admiration goes to you hon, I hope you have something nice planned after your graduation. 

With love

Emcee xxx


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## Megan10 (Jul 16, 2004)

Ermey,
Way to go! 
You have acheived so much. Enjoy that graduation and give yourself an enormous pat on the back for such strength and courage in educating them.
Love MeganXXX


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Ah gee, Thanks girls!  

I have to say that although it was rather draining and painful to write, I feel quite empowered by the experience.

Graduation ysterday was a wonderful day, one of those really happy occasions that feel completely unique and special. It was a little emotional after all i have been through to get this far, Both me, DH, and mum shed some tears and even dad looked misty eyed! 
It made the whole thing worth it at last, and really cemented to me that achievment is about far more then the academic results, that it is not about the end result so much as your personal journey and what you do to get there.  

Dh made it so special, while I was in the shower he ran around the house putting up special graduation decorations and blowing up balloons! he had even ordered a special graduation cake which was decorated with books saying 'Art History' all over them! 
We took mum and dad to our favourite posh Chinese restaurant afterwards. 

Thanks all again for entering into it with me.

You girls are my own inspiration more than you will ever know.


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## Maggie Mae (Mar 2, 2006)

What a star of a dh, E! Sounds like a great day, and you deserved it! Love MM xxx


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## flipper (Jul 7, 2004)

Hi Ermey, I hope you really enjoyed your graduation ceremony and that it didn't rain on your parade.  Flipper


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

An update.

I had a reply today, much quicker than I expected. It was long and thorough, and rather technical regarding the protocols and procedures of the evidence committee.

Positives: Parts of it seem to genuinely empathise, and they have given assurances that my concerns have been taken very seriously, and that steps have been taken to raise awareness of the seriousness of IF with the committee.

Negatives: Despite thanking me for my helpful information about the psychological effects of IF, they still believe that my case was classified correctly as 'significant' not 'serious'. 

As far as I can make out, this is because they work on the basis of the statement and evidence I submitted, rather than a 'blanket' categoriastion of circumstances (eg; they can't assume that all IF is 'Serious') 

I feel really mixed up about this, because it implies that although in principle they undertand that IF can be 'serious' the evidence I submitted wasn't enough to persuade them that my individual case was so, which obviously is really upsetting for me to think. 

I put my heart and soul into that submission of evidence, it was so painful to do, and I still ended up leaving out many of the day-to-day crises and emotional upsets that we faced. There were times I prayed that I wouldn't wake up in the morning, and times when I lay there willing myself to..well... not die exactly, just stop existing.

I feel I am left in a no-win situation now, becaue on the one hand they have still not taken the point that in my view IF patients just will not be able to provide a true picture of the extent of their circumstances, but on the other hand, I can appreciate that they can't be expected to be mind-readers.

Maybe sometimes there is only so much you can do. Its the same feeling as when our best frinds and family say 'I understand' but their actions indicate otherwise, and you feel like you are banging your head on a brick-wall.

I feel I ought to acknowledge their reply but I am unsure how far to comment further, and how far to preserve my strength, and focus on the future!

Any helpful comments and perspectives?

Although I know I don't post here as much as some, I am so thankful for this place of solidarity, where we do not have to justify why we feel the way we do, and where there are always others who understand.

The rest of the world is a lonely place at times.


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## VT (Aug 5, 2005)

Ermey,

I want to think about this for a bit before I reply properly. Just wanted to send you a massive   in the meantime.

Vicki
x


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

Ermey,

Its sad but true that until there are others out there who have been dealt the same or similar cards in the path to parenthood stakes they will simply never 'get it'.

I'm stumped for the moment as to what you should respond back to them with, part of me is very angry at them for making you feel the way you are at the moment, yet part of me is worried that if you were to pursue this further it could be at further cost to you after coming so far along the difficult journey you have had.

I hope you and your lovely DH are holding each other very close this evening hon.

Sending you both my love and support throughout all of this

Emcee xxx


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## Ermey (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanks girls  

I feel a bit better this morning (at the moment anyway!  ).

I haven't told DH yet that I had a reply, as he was very down when he came in from work yesterday, after a close colleague brought in their new baby to show it off. Poor love it really got to him, and I decided it was best to leave it for the night. I'll tell him tonight.

Thinking about it now, I think their reply was as near to an admission of getting it wrong as I will ever get. Their letter has 2 quite contradictory messages: in some ways my letter has obviously made quite an impression on them, and I was quite impressed by the some of the things said in terms of the pain of IF, it seems like more than just making the right noises to pacify me, and also seems to be as a result of my comments.

But I suspect that even if they agree with everything I said, they would never admit my own case should have been handled differently...I think they are covering themselves against me stirring up a hornets nest.

They also emphasise a lot that I should have appealed and I had good support at the time...I have never disputed either of these, but there was no way of appealing against this particular issue.

I think I will 'file' the letter for now (i.e leave it sitting in a big pile of bills and stuff!) and see how I feel in a couple of weeks.

I mostly feel today that I have done my bit. I never expected it would change stuff for me, I just wanted to raise awareness and it genuinely seems to have done that, even if I feel upset by some of the reply.

Thanks again.
XXXXX

P.S - apologies that this saga seems to have dominated the board at the moment.


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## emcee (Apr 3, 2005)

You've got absolutely nothing to apologise about hon, this is something that has had an impact on your life and an issue that could cause repercussions for others going through similar stuff out there. Don't think you've been taking over the board, you most certainly haven't, and if you can't come here for some support and feel able to 'tell it like it is' to us here, this space wouldn't be much cop, would it?  

Ok, nagging sesh over with now     you take care.

Love,
Emcee xxx


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