# Woman gives birth to octuplets



## minttuw

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article5596036.ece

"Citing patient confidentiality rules, the hospital declined to say whether the mother had become pregnant through fertility treatments, which can raise the likelihood of multiple births."

I do not understand how else someone would get pregnant with so many babies if not with IVF. Are there no restrictions in America how many embryos you can put back?

Minty


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## Marielou

I don't believe there are restrictions, at least not in all states.  An online friend of mine had IUI with 16 follicles, and went on to have IVF with 7 embryos transferred.  She then actually got pregnant naturally after lots of BFN's and now has a 3 year old daughter! 

Love the comment in the article at the bottom from a lady in spain - of course, noone should have fertility treatments    She obviously understands the pain of infertility well.  

Marie xxxx


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## Dominique123456

I just saw this and I am truly AMAZED they were alive and healthy. That is incredible - the odds those babies faced must have been immense. It seems incredibly irresponsible to have so many in one go - the dr's couldn't even count how many they were as there was an 8th they didn't even know about. So all the nuchal scans etc can't have been very thorough.

Did anyone else want to see a pic of mummies tummy before the birth??

Blimey how much are they going to cost to raise? Birthdays are going to have to be on HP and paid off throughout the year!


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## maybe-if

Marielou said:


> Love the comment in the article at the bottom from a lady in spain - of course, noone should have fertility treatments  She obviously understands the pain of infertility well.


And I bet you ANYTHING she has at least 3 kids of her own. Women who make comments like that always do!


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## loobylou713

Well i think it's fantastic news. The babies are doing well and good weights. I say good luck to her. She will be on a breast pump 24/7 though ouch.

I wonder if she had clomid like the woman over here who was advised to terminate a few because they could all die.

It says she is a strong woman. The news also said that most of the babies were breathing on their own and only a couple need help and one only needed nose oxygen. I bet she out soon looking for another cot.

I think she will get sponsorship from companies. I hope she does this will help a lot financially.


Linda
xxx


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## sallywags

V impressed that she has said that she will breast feed them all.... I can't even begin to imagine that. She will never have time to do anything else...

and yes, if you remember how much sponsorship the British Sextuplets got, (they are 25 now, amazingly!), and this is the States, she is bound to get loads of sponsorship.


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## Wicklow

Another comment was awful too saying that ivf shouldnt be around as she has to pay for othr people to have treatment and that multiples are only concieved trough IVF. Not a clue! I paid for my ivf treatment and I also didnt have multiples but I have the pain of wanting a child so badly. 

I think this women is amazing and I pray that all 8 of the babies survive and grow up to be happy and healthy children, a real gift for the parents (dont envy the lack of sleep - bad enough with 1!)

Ruth


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## Be Lucky

Linda.i think it prob thru clomid.i rem before i had my mc with clomid.they told me not 2 try 1 month in case i had 3 or 4!good luck 2 her and dad and babies!berniex


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## Marshmallow

Latest news is she's already got 6 other kids who "live with the grandparents" according to the Daily Mirror.... 

Will these 8 little ones go to live with grandma and granddad too when they get out of hospital?  

Good luck to the little ones (all 14 of them)!  I hope they get all the love they deserve.  

Marshmallow


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## SleepyT

Wish I hadn't read the comments. I have a burning in my stomach with Mary s0dding Taylor and GW....UUURRRGGGGHHHH. 
Ignorant people make me sick to the stomach!!!
T 
x


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## professor waffle

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4381867/Octuplets-mother-already-has-six-children.html


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## JVJM

I think she had iui or a cancelled iui and went ahead and did the deed on her own. NO ivf dr in the US would transfer 8 embies. No way, no how. Most US drs also don't allow iui if you have more than 3 follies, so either she had major problems that they thought no way would 8 fertilise or it was cancelled and she did it anyway. I have heard stories of women taking more meds than they should too, not thinking about the outcome. (Like I had extra menopur and could have very well done an extra shot after our last u/s and before the ovitrelle without my drs knowledge.)


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## Angelmummy

Whatever the ins and outs.....

I can't help feeling sad  that this lady has 14 children and I dont have a single one..... 

Of course I wish them health and happiness anyway.....

Angelmummy

x


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## Junnie

She DID have IVF...

And her mother says she has OCD and shouldnt be allowed to have so many kids... after reading the article makes me wonder why there isnt more psych. tests done especially on a single mother with 6 kids DESPERATLY wanting so many embroys transfered...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090131/world/octuplets

(I dont have an issue about a single lady FYI just think that alarm bells should have gone off in the clinics when she insisted on so many...)

My issue is 14 children is A LOT to handle... and if she doesnt getthe help she needs (not all companies are willing to donate ) she will be living off the state and those kids will not have great lives.. the USA support system isnt as good as the UK


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## Dominique123456

Reading that article I feel really sorry for her. Mum sounds awful really, to talk about her to the press like that is really underhand and unfair. She has a lot of children yes, and I agree that it was a dangerous thing to do to have so many in one go BUT to say that her desire to hev children is psuchological issues based on rumors about her is really mean. I wish her the best of luck.


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## Junnie

Well i think you have to look at it fromt he mothers perspective.. Obviously shes been down this route with her daughter and recognizes her daughter has a mental illness and is just damn frustrated. Sure going to the press wasnt the best move... but i guess you can only take so much! Sounds like her mom has been super supportive with her first 6 kids... Even helping to raise her one son who is autistic!


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## caz24

hiya couldnt help add this - it's her first interview http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5673172.ece

dunno wot to think i mean part of me is happy for her, as she did have to have ivf for them but on the other hand she had 6 children already! - surely thats more than enough lol, oh well whatever the case im sure she must b over the moon all of the babies are okay, and im sure she'll give them a lovely upbringing xx


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## Choice4

Click below to watch the vieo of the first interview, and you can read the comments at the end of the post too

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/06/nadya-suleman-speaks-octu_n_164559.html


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## Essex Girl

I've just read this thread and words fail me.  Just as well, as I probably wouldn't be allowed to post them.  Totally irresponsible all round, and a complete abuse of IVF.  I'll leave it at that.

EG  (waiting for the wrath of the mods to descend on me.....)


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## cleg

Essex Girl said:


> (waiting for the wrath of the mods to descend on me.....)


they aint that bad 

thankyou for posting the links i will read/watch now

xxx


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## Joy69

EG - I feel like you   

I cannot understand how any Dr can be so irresponsible to transfer so many embryos   Regardless of whether the patient has children or not   

All in all I feel so sad   IF is hard enough to deal with without having to read about someone who has totally abused the system and as a result now has 14 children and at present no concrete way of supporting and nurturing them properly  
Here I am with NONE through no fault of my own   

Joy


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## sweets x

Am totally shocked that this has happened. Think it takes the mickey(puttint it nicely) out of IVF when so many women can't concieve one baby never mind 14.
I understand that she might have problems etc... and i feel sorry for her in that way.
How is she going to support them all. She might get some help for a while but that won't last forever will it. It will be tha kids that suffer in the long term.

nicola


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## Jane D

All I can say is i cannot believe that a clinic in the USA would put back so many embryos for the pure reason of health complications for mother and subsequent babies.  I read that the mother used £120,000 worth of medical compensation payout to pay for her treatment.  Perhaps she made the clinic a monetary offer that they could not refuse!!  I am aware of the mothers mental health issues and she claims being an only child has been part of the issue. 


Jane


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## Ceri.

Unbelievable, almost speechless! I didnt make much comment when she had her octuplets, as i didnt know the circumstances, but _IF_ whats printed is true, then i think this lady needs to think of her children and not herself (shame she didnt before hand) Having 6 children already then going on for more (granted she didnt know she'd have 8 babies but prob knew the chances of multiples were high) well .... 
I know of 2 separate people with 6 kids each, (and want more) How on gods earth can you give each and every one of those children the love, attention, discipline they need? Not to mention the finances to give them a decent standard of living. She always wanted a large family? fine, but where do you draw the line? Everyones idea of a large family is different but 6-14 kids? Selfish woman. And quite irresponsible of the doctors who made it possible. I could go on but i'd better keep my mouth firmly shut


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## Junnie

PLUS one of her kids is autistic my friend has an autistic 3 year old and he demands 24-7 care and attention for his special needs. i cant imagine with 8 new babys in the house that this wee boy is going to get the love, attention and care he needs! 


She will need to hire people.


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## BABY2

I too had nothing to say about this at first, but having seen a snippet of her "first interview", I was shocked to hear she has 6 children already. She also reminded me of one of the Jackson's with all that plastic surgery she has had (of course that has nothing to do with ANYHTING ).

Her interview is going to be aired Monday night, not sure if I saw it on CNN, but apparently she is a single mum-nothing wrong with that- so how in God's name is she going to manage all 14 children...and i heard she was waiting for the best deal with the media before she spoke out and has bagged a £2million deal  

Disgraceful.can't say anymore


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## Junnie

well i  believe NBC or CNN whomever did the interview said they DID NOT pay her!


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## ~ Chux ~

~Ceri~ said:


> I know of 2 separate people with 6 kids each, (and want more) How on gods earth can you give each and every one of those children the love, attention, discipline they need? Not to mention the finances to give them a decent standard of living.



Just HAD to jump in here and say that I am one of six children - we all have the same father, each one of us was planned, and my mum was a SAHM until I was 15 ish yet never claimed benefits. As to there not being enough love/attention/discipline etc, I can honestly say that I don't feel I have missed out on anything by coming from a large family and, if anything, there are many benefits. We have all done well - 4 went through university and 2 through college, again, all without benefits so please don't tar all with the same brush!



Junnie said:


> PLUS one of her kids is autistic my friend has an autistic 3 year old and he demands 24-7 care and attention for his special needs.


Autism covers a HUGE spectrum and not all autistic children need 24/7 care!

Chux xx


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## Ceri.

Just my opinion Chux, not tarring you all with the same brush, my perspective from the people *i* know is that quality one-on-one time with their mum doesnt come that often. I suppose part of me thinks that as we've had to go down the ICSI route (or any kind of route!) that one child alone is a blessing and that yes i would've loved 2 or maybe 3, maybe i'm still a little bitter that we cant, *but* i'm counting my blessings regardless.


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## Dominique123456

Got to be careful though that just because we have had trouble conceiving that we don't sound like sour grapes when someone manages to do it over and over again. 

Yes she is single but hopefully she will make some money from the media to spend on her kids and extra childcare if she needs it. I didn't think she has had plastic surgery? Where did that come from? The thing that struck me most about her interview was how young she is but she looks capable - she isn't massively overweight and she hasn't been on benefits up till now and doesn't intend to. She is studying a good vocation (counseling) and it sounded to me like she had a good head on her shoulders.

There are two issues here - One is how and why were 6 embryos transferred into a woman with highly proven success with IVF. Although those babies have survived it was a miracle and shouldn't set a norm that it's ok to have so many embies transferred - as even just the risks associated with just 2 or 3 babies are high and terrifying.

The second issue is about our judgments regarding her choice to have a big family as a single parent. I don't think it's our place to comment on the latter, sounds so gossipy. Local social services/government agencies and people that really know her, have a responsibility to the children to ensure they will be cared for appropriately and comment if those needs are not being met. We're not going to get to any sort of truth based on the handful of facts we have and 5 min interview...


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## SleepyT

Large families are lovely (I'm one of five)
Single mothers can do it and are often more than capable of looking after more than one child (my sister has 3 boys and has been single for the last 2 years.)
All those things are true.
But even Mary Poppins couldn't comfortably manage 8 babies of the same age, as well as 6 older children. Day in and day out, night after night, month after month, for the rest of her life. If this had all happened naturally I wouldn't have an opinion. It wouldn't have been a matter of choice. But the fact his lady who is allegedly not of sound mind (and no one checked out my mental health when I was going for tx so I don't imagine her clinic did either) decided to load herself - not with one more child or even twins, but as many as she could!
It's not healthy for these little ones, she will need an awful lot of help from the older children and from anybody else and it's just not fair on those kids. 
All that said I hope they grow up to be happy and successful and she gets the love and attention she obviously craves.

I'll await the Sky documentary that is bound to follow in 5 years time or thereabouts   )
Sleepy x


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## sallywags

I bet it will be less than five years...


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## Junnie

According to the American Papers and after watching the Interview im still baffled!

Her answers to the questions just seem i dunno bizarre. she feels traumatized because she was a single child hence why all she ever wanted to be was a mother.. Fair enough i can understand being a mother part. 

However that Clinic she went to was irresponsible, gave a BAD name to IVF, and really should have checked her mental status I know my clinic and my GP did before I could start TX. I know not all clinics do this but come on they knew she had 6 babies and she walks in asking for ALL her embryos to be transfered!!?!?! Hello Alarm bells!!! If you go in for plastic surgery and say I want 5 procedures at once they would send you for a pysch exam to see whats going on in your noggin! 

THATS what i have an issue with... She put herself, those babies in a lot of danger having all those embryos transferred!

No one is knocking her single mom status.. They are knocking the fact that she is unemployed the delivery of her 8 babies was over 3mil. and lets face it to SUPPORT 14 kids just ont he financial basis is gonna be hard.



Sponsors that have helped out in the past with famous large families (like Pampers, Huggies, formula companies etc) after all the press and looking into her case have decided not to donate either at all... or some are sending very few supplies. Also, a lot of TV and magazine companies are not paying the huge payouts for interviews and exclusives.


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## Ceri.

Dominique123456 said:


> Got to be careful though that just because we have had trouble conceiving that we don't sound like sour grapes when someone manages to do it over and over again.


Not knocking the fact people choose to go through it again for a sibling at all hun. The fact is she had 6 and chose to go on to have all her embies put back  resulting in 8 babies


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## BABY2

Dominique123456 said:


> The thing that struck me most about her interview was how young she is but she looks capable - she isn't massively overweight and she hasn't been on benefits up till now and doesn't intend to. She is studying a good vocation (counseling) and it sounded to me like she had a good head on her shoulders.


Just curious, so people who are "massively overweight" or are "on benefits" are not "capable" to be good parents you said "she looks capable" ...trust me , looks can be deceiving! If that was the case, then social services would have a wonderfully easy time placing children with people who "looked capeable".


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## Junnie

Haha my mom always says im sure Jack the ripper was a smart good looking guy too! (thats what she said to me when i wanted to go out on a date with a guy who i didnt want her meeting lol)

Which means -- looks can be deceiving


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## Dominique123456

Baby   - I meant that she looks fit enough to run around after kids, c'mon if she was 20+ stone you'd wonder about that wouldn't you? Of course being a bit overweight doesn't mean you're not fit, but humoungus would. Anyway, you're saying same point as me which is that none of us 'know' her so we can't make any truthful predictions about her capability. Social services wouldn't watch a 5min interview with someone and then decide whether they should have kids or not, so why are we doing it?


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## Choice4

Watch second interview on MSNBC, warning the octoplets shown, mum, mentioned the IVF clinic and the Drs name.

Please don't open link if you don't want to see the babies!!!!!!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/09/octuplets-unveiled-mom-de_n_165142.html


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## Cate1976

For me the biggest issue in this case is that the clinic transferred so many embryos when she already had 6 children from previous attempt/s at IVF. She is to be commended on one thimng and that is that up till now she has managed to raise 6 LO's without benefits, grandparents have helped with childcare and I believe will continue to support their daughter. She has said that she doesn't want to stay on benefits and the vocation she's studying for is worthwhile and I hope that she gets all the help and support she needs to gain the qualifications to do it.

On the weight issue, when DH and I went on waiting list February last year, i was 2 stone overweight but have since lost most of it and DH is 4 stone overweight, some of which is due to medication he's on. Our clinic didn't say anything to us about it although I did wear loose clothes to disguise my big stomach.


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## loobylou713

They are all so beautiful. Good luck to the mum. 

linda
xxx


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## Be Lucky

They r gorgeous and look quite hearty 2b sharin space with 8 of them!berniex


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## Caz

I've reserved judgement on this up until now but, you know, watching those videos I can't help thinking what an amazing miracle these babies are. 
The mother doesn't come across at all unbalanced; in fact she seems quite warm and loving to me and genuinely seems to want to do the best for her family. Ok, maybe she was mad to have 6 embryos put back at once but, actually, that's not at all uncommon in countries where there are no laws governing it (we've had women on FF who have had 6 embryo transfers). I wonder how many of us would have been happy to have had a football teams's worth of embies if it meant the chance of just one of them sticking. I can certainly see how she might have mentally made that judgement call - not saying it was the right one but, hey, it;s done and you can't very well undo it now can you!
As for the grandmother, well, I feel a bit sorry for the mother when I see her own mum. Maybe it's becasue there's too much judgementalism in there about how many kids she thinks her daughter should have or maybe its just the whole attitude. Sorry i think she comes across as a bit of a cow. 

Apart from that I can only say congratulations to theis lady for making history, and to wish her luck making a great life for her family and I hope that people will see through the single mum thing and extend the same help to her that they might to any other family with high order mulitple births. It would be a shame for the children if people didn't feel so charitable because of judging the mother. 

C~x


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## Essex Girl

Caz - I'm afraid I saw the ITV interviews this evening and came down totally on the side of the grandmother.  She is having to help raise all these children and she has had no say in the matter.  I'm not surprised she is fed up.

I think there is a difference between being critical and being judgemental, and there is a lot in this story that doesn't add up.  For starters, the mother says she has not claimed any welfare so far.  But she has had 7 lots of IVF, had 6 children to feed and clothe, and is not actually in work - she says she is doing a degree course in counselling (which she still intends to finish despite having 8 newborn babies to look after). So what is she living on and where has her money come from?  If she is being kept by her parents, that is another reason for her mother to feel justifiably fed up about the whole situation.

It will be interesting to revisit the family in 2 years' time and see how it is actually working out, though I suspect somehow that the cameras will be less welcome by then...

And I don't think those that are fertile do have the right to just produce lots of children and expect social services to pick up the pieces.  It's not fair on the children.  I don't know how things are done in California, but over here, if parents have more children than they can cope with, some will get taken into care and eventually adopted.  

As I say, let's see how this one develops....

EG x


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## Be Lucky

I agree with essex girl.the grandparents seem 2b raising the 6 already in a small house.ther is something dodgy bout it.how could she afford treatment on no income.but the babies r lovely and as stated here now bless em berniex


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## Junnie

EG I agree... to me its NOTHING to do with the fact she is single mom but how can a single mom support 14 kids when she doesnt have a considerable income?

I mean we just manage to support DHs son and the new one on the way we are saving for but its gonna be tight. and we are a 2 income family.

I DO feel sorry for the grandma.. and shes not coming across as a cow but imagine her position... she has 1 daughter and you know after 20ish years your kid moves out starts her own life etc etc you go into retirement mode.... now BAM you have to help raise 6 babies and then your kid goes out and adds an additional 8: 

I would be P*ssed off too!! be different if she had her own mansion to live in... but as the grandma said her entire house is full of cots! My mom all though she has all the love in the world for me would probably tell me to get on my bike if i did that to her!

Obviously grandma has been looking after the 6 kids feeding, clothing, washing, upkeep etc thats a lot of someone of her age to be doing and its easy to say "well its her choice to help" but really what are her options? See her grandkids on the streets?

No denying that the 8 babies are cute just wish they had a better start to life then a media frenzy!

And as for the mom passing judgement on her own daughter wellllllll sometimes mother knows best


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## Ceri.

Totally agree Junnie and EG


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## Dominique123456

This topic is certainly heating up!

In the interview she said that she used money ($150,000), she received from a compensation claim for being caught in a riot at hospital where she worked (or something like that), to pay for treatment/raising kids.

Re: granny - I think she has every right to feel put upon and annoyed about that, but that doesn't mean it's ok to publicly humiliate her daughter and feed the media frenzy - how does that help the kids if granny tells them "you only exist cos your mama is nuts" rather than loved, wanted and like there is a place for them? That interview is now 'out there' and those kids will watch it one day. I also think that while her daughter has 8 babies in ICU is not the time to launch a character assassination of her. 

I really hope she DOES get money for interviews and free stuff from manufacturers because I feel confident that the money will be passed onto the babies and won't be used to buy fur coats for mummy lol. 

Cate1976 - I really hope you don't think I was getting at you re: weight  everyone is allowed to be curvy!


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## ~ Chux ~

I'm with Caz on this one - the babies are here, they are gorgeous and I am wowed by how she managed to carry 8 to 30 weeks!



Caz said:


> I wonder how many of us would have been happy to have had a football teams's worth of embies if it meant the chance of just one of them sticking.


And I don't for a minute imagine she thought all would 'stick', she probably couldn't see past getting pregnant which lets face it, isn't all that different to a lot of us on here.



Essex Girl said:


> She is having to help raise all these children and she has had no say in the matter. I'm not surprised she is fed up.


No matter how the Mother feels, I am shocked at her speaking out against her daughter as she is. No one is forcing her to raise the children and of course she has a say in the matter. However, she is no different to millions of other Grandmothers who take an active role in the raising of their grandchildren - my MIL is another who always has one or more grandchildren at hers.

I do think it was daft to put so many back but it's done and I wish the mum all the luck in the world. Coming from a large family isn't all doom and gloom - you're never without a playmate or someone to talk to for starters! Years ago having 14+ children wasn't actually that unusual, I know my aunt was one of 17 and I used to work with a lady who was one of 14. They managed then and that was without all the mod cons we have today.

Chux xx


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## Ceri.

I dont think anyones hoping she falls on her bum so-to-speak, yes the babies ARE gorgeous and think we all hope the mum does a fantastic job, dont think that was the issue  
Large families yrs ago ? Yes but they didnt have the contraception they do now, maybe a factor in that. 
Wouldnt it be boring if we all agreed!


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## Junnie

I guess for granny she spoke out of anger.. I mean think about this:

Your retired.. eating your porridge reading the paper on a Sunday morning, your watching your 6 grandkids and BAM media circus on your FRONT YARD! its kinda hard to keep your mouth shut and i think maybe her emotions took over thats why she spoke about her daughter like she did.

and yeah years ago Big families of 14 did exist- years ago we also gave our children baths of alchol to bring down fevers and lets face it being a single mom back then was very rare. And just caus eyou had 14 kids not all of them survived. 

Im not saying big families are wrong.... but even 150k(roughly 100pounds) isnt going to go a far way to raise kids is it?


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## Cate1976

Dominique: I know you weren't getting at me about weight.

I'm still amzed that the dr allowed all 6 embryos to be transferred. The chances of all 6 taking and then 2 dividing again is so slim. On another website I go on there's a lady pg with triplets after IVF, she had 2 embryos transferred and 1 divided. It is quite rare for embryos to divide after ET with IVF. The biggest problem now is where the family is going to live. There isn't room for them in the 3 bed house the 6 are in at the moment. Was looking on a few websites last night and in 1 of the bedrooms there's a double bed and 2 cribs (assume the 2 yr old twins are in these), another bedroom has a bed and a crib in it (assume 5yr old is in bed and 3 yr old in crib), and finally the third bedroom has bunk bed in it (assume the 6 & 7 yr olds are in them).


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## ready4Family

IVF is am amazing thing as it lets some of us be mommies that otherwise wouldn't.  I do feel though that the dr's were irresponsible for implanting so many and it gives ivf a bad name.  This is not normal protocol but to others, it may make ivf even more negative than they already view it.


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## Cate1976

That's what concerns me as well. IVF getting a bad name cos people who don't have IF issues won't be aware that only 2 sometimes 3 embies are transferred and that SET is being introduced.


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## babycrazy

Hi
I bet her mum is getting a good payout from the media to **** her DD off. Is it not always the case some one wins a big wack on the lottery and a week later all the maggots come out of the woodwork with a  negative story for a few grand off the tabloids, same with Caleb's, always some one they thought were a  friend willing to stab them in the back for a quick  little earner. My DH said the parents moved in with the DD after they went bankrupt. I guess the DD will always have enough money to raise her kids now as she has made history and all the media over the world will want in on it.

I guess this woman's DD does have something physiological going on, perhaps she had years of  IF then having a Handicapped child upset the balance somewhere along the the way.  Why has no one recognised her plight and worked with her to help her with her problems.

I hope you all achieve your dreams of motherhood.
Angel Blessings
XX
Karen BC


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## ~ Chux ~

~Ceri~ said:


> Large families yrs ago ? Yes but they didnt have the contraception they do now, maybe a factor in that.
> Wouldnt it be boring if we all agreed! [/color]


Oh I would HATE it if we all agreed!!



charnich said:


> But she'd had 5 other successful IVFs previously (1 twin pregnancy), so the precedent was set - the odds of her getting pregnant were higher than the average odds for IVF working. I think it is shockingly unethical of her doctor to allow her to put back her remaining 6 frozen embryos.


I don't think anyone would argue that it's unethical of the doctor to allow her to have so many put back and, for me, that is the most shocking thing. Does anyone know how many unsucessful IVF's she had, if any?



Junnie said:


> And just caus eyou had 14 kids not all of them survived.


No doubt what this lady was thinking when she had all her embies put back.



Junnie said:


> even 150k(roughly 100pounds) isnt going to go a far way to raise kids is it?


There are millions of others doing it on a hellova lot less.



babycrazy said:


> perhaps she had years of IF then having a Handicapped child upset the balance somewhere along the the way


Does she have a handicapped one?

Chux xx


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## Cate1976

One of the 6 she had before the octuplets has Autism.


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## ~ Chux ~

Oh right. I knew one had autism though no one has reported to what degree (autism covers a HUGE spectrum and just saying he is autistic doesn't really mean much on it's own). I wouldn't class that as being handicapped though.


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## Be Lucky

My husband nephew has very severe autism.goes 2 special school.dont even think he toilet trained so sum autistic children wld b considered disabled.as u say it depend on the spectrum berniex


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## babycrazy

Taken from Collins English Dictionary. Handicapped = Physically or Mentally disabled 
So yes what ever end of the spectum Autism is a Handicap.
Xx
Karen BC


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## mountainlion

What amazes me most about this story;

1/ someone can carry 8 babies to 30 weeks.
2/ its possible to have 8 live births.
3/ all 8 have survived so far, in fact would appear to be thriving.
4/ at this stage at least, all the babies appear heathy and mum also.

and also, assuming the reported facts are correct;

5/ 6 frosties can all implant and progress on.
6/ 2 of the embryos can go on to split and form twins. [I hadn't realized till now that transferred embryos can go on to split. I believed that the splitting occured early and were destroyed by the clinic rather than used for transfer. If this is the case, then it would be possible to have a SET and yet occasionally produce twins. I've never considered it before, but has anyone ever had identical twins from IVF?

I do wonder however if the story is to get more complicated as we find out more; has she attended more than one clinic at once for example. Has she not revealed her true IVF past successes? Did she not have IVF at all and used clomid etc, or did she have a friend perhaps working within the clinic?

When I had IVF abroad, initially many of the UK medical professionals who dealt with us thought that most of the IVF centres abroad implanted numerous embryos and were surprised when I told that that although I was over 40, I had only 2 embryos transferred. This case no doubt could tar a lot of the more responsible clinics abroad. I must admit that I was surpised that IVF seems so poorly regulated in the States, especially with their compensation culture.

I wish the babies well,their survival is fantastic and the medical team have obviously been fantastic, and I hope something positive can come out of all this.

Mountainlion.


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## Essex Girl

babycrazy said:


> I guess this woman's DD does have something physiological going on, perhaps she had years of IF then having a Handicapped child upset the balance somewhere along the the way.


Yes, I had years of IF then a 'handicapped' child and I'm a complete fruitcake now! Perhaps this explains why I spend so much time on this site....   

Seriously though, most of the parents of children with disabilities that I know think long and hard about whether to have any more children because of the demands of their disabled child. But you know my view of the mother in this case already.

Having said that, I wish the babes all the best, and I agree that it is a tribute to modern neonatal care that they have all survived and appear to be doing well.

EG x


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## Dominique123456

Mountainlion - I know a close a friend who got triplets from two embryos at 39! Hence why I chose SET!!


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## ~ Chux ~

babycrazy said:


> Taken from Collins English Dictionary. Handicapped = Physically or Mentally disabled
> So yes what ever end of the spectum Autism is a Handicap.


Regardless of what a dictionary says, I don't think it's a particularly pleasant word, or perhaps it's just the way it's being used here that I don't think is particularly nice?? No one knows to what extent her LO is affected by autism yet it's been assumed he/she must need 24/7 care because of it - yet another negative that can be used against her to fuel the 'bad person' image I guess.

Chux xx


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## Ceri.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29086126/


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## Junnie

My mom called me this morning;

....with regards to octuplet woman

"Could this have happend to you? How many embies did you have put back etcetc etc" I explained to her that its governed over here but a lot of her friends were asking her because they knew I had IVF. 


As for the article.. Id like to know what she defines as welfare.. Food Stamps are welfare. They were designed so that people couldnt buy anything but food with them so thats why they use those instead of money (but its still a handout)

Sad to learn 3 of her 6 kids already have disabilities that must be hard for her and her mom to look after because no matter WHAT the disability is it still will require more attention then a child who doesnt have a disability.

Also after reading that article and interview im a bit worried she doesnt seem to have a plan of action to feed and take care of these babies. I do feel better knowing she IS getting money from the govt (even though she is trying to say its not welfare) but still its not a lot of money when you consider her outgoings will be going up (Wouldnt like to do THAT laundry)


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## Caz

~ Chux ~ said:


> babycrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Taken from Collins English Dictionary. Handicapped = Physically or Mentally disabled
> So yes what ever end of the spectum Autism is a Handicap.
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of what a dictionary says, I don't think it's a particularly pleasant word, or perhaps it's just the way it's being used here that I don't think is particularly nice?? No one knows to what extent her LO is affected by autism yet it's been assumed he/she must need 24/7 care because of it - yet another negative that can be used against her to fuel the 'bad person' image I guess.
> 
> Chux xx
Click to expand...



The politcally correct term these days is Disabled (at least that's what all, the government legislation uses but I am sure my own borough council call it something like "persons with special opportunities" or something looneytunes like that  )

I agree; I think it's silly to speculate on what impact her autistic child or any other supposed disabled children she might have has had on her either deciding to have more children or how demanding his/her disability really is. Any parent with a disabled child will tell you that they all have their own individual and unique needs - much like any non disabled child and only when you are faced with looking after them can you really know what that means and how capable you are of having more.



mountainlion said:


> What amazes me most about this story;
> 
> 1/ someone can carry 8 babies to 30 weeks.
> 2/ its possible to have 8 live births.
> 3/ all 8 have survived so far, in fact would appear to be thriving.
> 4/ at this stage at least, all the babies appear heathy and mum also.
> 
> and also, assuming the reported facts are correct;
> 
> 5/ 6 frosties can all implant and progress on.
> 6/ 2 of the embryos can go on to split and form twins. [I hadn't realized till now that transferred embryos can go on to split. I believed that the splitting occured early and were destroyed by the clinic rather than used for transfer. If this is the case, then it would be possible to have a SET and yet occasionally produce twins. I've never considered it before, but has anyone ever had identical twins from IVF?


That's the thing I find amazing. Scientifically and medically, it's nothing short of astounding. If 8 babies can make it against all the odds... such hope for the progress of medical care for mutliples. 
I would also say that the IVF clinic is probably going nto get inundated with new patients with sucess rates like that!  
I can't even begin to speculate on the rights and wrongs of whether she should or should not have had more children; everyone is entitled to live their life the way they see fit IMO and, anyway, it's done now so what's to be done about it? Nothing really. Just hope they have the best possible life they can.

There's quite a few ladies on FF who have identical twins. When I had my last tretament, the nurse at my clinic told me of a woman who had twins with her first successful IVF, opted for SET to avoid the same and ended up with identical twins anyway! I believe there's something about blastocyst transfers being more likely to split too which is why clinics prefer to do SET with blasts.

Incidently, I've never seen anything but good and positive press about this family: http://www.duggarfamily.com/aboutus.html
It would be interesting to see what people's opinions of them and their ever expanding brood is. Aside from there being a husband/father and it being natural conception, what's the difference between what they want and what this woman wants?

C~x

[red]This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/red]


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## Dominique123456

Blimey the Douggars certainly know how to make the most publicity from it! 20 and counting! All the kids names begin with 'J' that must become a real tongue twister at dinner time 

I think they would be viewed very differently by the media and general public because there is a man and they are self-supporting.

I do think that the '8 baby lady' is also getting stick based on general prejudice towards 'single mums' who get scapegoated for many of societies ills. She might be getting some handouts now but hopefully her children will grow up have jobs and contribute taxes and skills to the workforce so it's not all 'take' on her part. I also sense that there is disdain towards her because she is an 'independent' female in the media which culturally and historically are usually targeted for bullying.

Would be really interesting to get all academic about all of this and write a social-anthropological essay/paper examining all the aspects.


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## SleepyT

I don't know how to do the quote thingy  but in response to the Duggar family there Caz, it is completely different in my opinion. And it's only my opinion, not necessarily right or wrong, but the fact that couple there have decided to stay off contraception and welcome into the world whatever children they are blessed with, is completely different to Nadya Suleman. She had 6 children, three of whom are "disabled" and she went on to have further *treatment* transferring *six* embryos, having had successful multiple births from tx before, and is living with her parents, with neither the space to cater for them nor the finance to support them. And I'm fairly sure I read - although I'm hoping I dreamt it - that she has not finished yet. She says she doesn't want welfare or handouts but will "embrace any help people want to offer"
I'm gonna get shot for this I know ( ) but the more I read and see of her, the woman is nuts and completely selfish, it's just my opinion.

Only in America! as the saying goes! x


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## Dominique123456

In terms of your concerns around her financial, emotional and environmental capability to support them I don't feel the same way as you but I can understand why people might feel that way looking at her situation. Maybe I'm just too optimisitc?

Interesting that you seem to be saying that it more acceptable to have lots of children if 'god intended it' rather than through IVF though.


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## Angel129

As so many have already commented the thing that worries me most on the whole is the perception that people in general with no experience of IVF will have of the IVF process in general and for those that are infertile whose only option to have children is IVF.

I'm American and DH and I visited a fertility hospital in America to investigate how the process is different than we have experienced here in the UK.  The fertility consultant we saw was willing to transfer no more than 3 embryos and only than was I allowed 3 (instead of 1 or 2) because of my history of 3 previous IVF treatments resulting in BFNs.  I hope this is the rule rather than the exception of fertility hospitals in the US. Again I worry that the general public's perception of IVF treatment in America will be so biased based on stories like this.

I tend to be quite a judgmental person anyway, I'll be the first one to admit this.  In my opinion from everything I have seen in the media this woman seems completely delusional.  She seems very self obsessed to me.  It has been widely reported in the US anyway that she has had multiple plastic surgery procedures to look more like Angelina Jolie.  How can she afford all of this?  The answers to the questions she is asked by the reporters seem dream-like and nonsensical. 

On another point, we don't have national health service in the US so if you don't have private insurance which you normally are offered through your employer, than you don't have insurance, if that makes sence.  How is she going to pay for the medical treatment her babies have already received and will continue to receive in the future?  I assume she is getting Medicare or Medicaid (I can never remember which one it is) which is again another government funded 'handout'.    

I hope these babies continue to thrive and grow strong and healthy.  I hope if nothing else this case can help regulate the system in the US so that something like this doesn't happen again.  

Angie


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## Dominique123456

Angel - I definitetly agree that there should be tougher laws on how many embies are transferred. What we don't hear about is the number multi-pregnancies that DON'T make it.


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## loobylou713

The word handicap is a horrible word. I work with the visually impaired and years ago they were called handicapped and there is nothing physically or mentaly wrong with them.

People of all disabilities have their own words some like blind, deaf, but you never hear them call themselves handicapped i am sure people in wheel chairs don't like it either. Physically challenged maybe or disabled. I know america still uses the word though.

Linda
xxx


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## SleepyT

It's not a "God intended thing" for me, believe me I've been through that thought process more than once, being somebody who has been unable to conceive naturally in almost 5 years and there appears to be nothing wrong with me or my husband.

But if we were blessed to be successful tomorrow with an IVF treatment, have twins, singletons up to 6 children, no job, I'm living with my Mum and Dad and have kids sleeping on top of each other in cots and beds, I would not go and willingly, *purposely* have 6 more embryos from a sperm donor, transferred. It's not right, it's not fair, who's needs is she meeting here? These are not the actions of somebody emotionally stable and I don't think this is comparable with the other family. It's not the same at all in my opinion.


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## Cate1976

Was reading front page of can't remember which paper and it said that Nadya gets food stamps and disability benefits for 3 of the first 6 children. She doesn't see these as welfare but as what she's entitled to to help raise the 3 who have disabilities and I can see where she's coming from. She had all 6 embryos transferred because she didn't want any destroyed and I can understand that. I'm not judging her because the chances of all 6 embryo's implanting and 2 dividing is so slim. I think the doctor has some questions to answer though. My main concern is where she's going to live. I saw the video on the link posted on this thread and from that got to a couple others. She seems to be a very capable woman who will be able to raise all 14 kids with support which she'll get from family and child services.


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## ~ Chux ~

I don't see how having further tx knowing it's been successful before is all that different to having unprotected sex, knowing how fertile you are! Both have decided they want more children and done whatever they need to do to have them. Anyway, who knows what conversation went on when the decision was made to put so many back. As has been said, the system in America is completely different and they don't get state help in the same way as you would here - I have no idea what you would get mind you!

As to the foodstamps and disability payments, I get tax credits and family allowance or whatever it's called these days, yet I wouldn't consider I'm on benefits or getting handouts.

Did anyone see the 17 year old girl in the papers yesterday who is expecting triplets and already has a 2 year old? Apparently her partner has decided it'll be better if he's around for a few years rather than working, so is going to sign on instead. It was a natural pregnancy so does make it ok??

Chux xx


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## loobylou713

If I had 6 embies and i wanted them put back thinking i might end up with 1 or 2 i would do it. As for the state helping well i have worked full time since i was 16 now 43 paid for all my tx. If I needed help I would claim it. How many of these young 13/14 year olds will get benefits all their life and not contribute to the country. I say good luck to her. I think there is worse things going off in this world to worry about than a lady who wants babies. If they are loved and care for it should not matter.

Linda
xxx


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## SleepyT

So many tangents this topic can go off on! LOL!! All very interesting.
I say good luck to her to, more so good luck to those kiddies. And to any more children she decides to have because she just wants more children to love. I'll wait to read the next interview she or her mother give to the press (not for publicity of course) and maybe I'll change my view and decide she's doing it for all the right reasons and there isn't anything selfish about it.
I also hope the clinic is looked into.

TTFN ladies xx


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## Cate1976

If God didn't want people to have children with IVF, the treatment wouldn't exist. I'm a Christian and believe that God's will be done.


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## Junnie

~ Chux ~ said:


> As to the foodstamps and disability payments, I get tax credits and family allowance or whatever it's called these days, yet I wouldn't consider I'm on benefits or getting handouts.


Just to let you know-- the food stamp program in america is like welfare.. (im from that neck of the woods i can explain how it works) kinda like the Sure start program. What happens is rather then getting 500.00 put into your bank account for groceries nappies etc. yoru given like a voucher to use at supermarkets (this stopped the crack heads from buying dope) --saying that a lot of people sell their food stamps


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## Cate1976

If vouchers are given instead of money, how do people pay things like electric bill and how do they buy things for school like colouring pencils or say it's birthday or Christmas and parent wants to buy something useful or educational such as jigsaw puzzle or game? What about clothes and stuff for school?


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## caz24

bit more news:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090211/tsc-uk-octuplets-011ccfa.html

im not trying to advertise her website or anything but couldnt help looking for it
http://www.thenadyasulemanfamily.com/


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## SleepyT

Well she has the publicity she craved for. But sadly for those children not the money she expected to get and badly needs. And now they're in hiding and hoping for credit card donations via their "Family Website" from people around the world to keep them fed, watered and clothed.
But we are to believe she's just a normal stable woman who just wants children to care for (and a face like Angelina Jolie allegedly!)

Sick and unjust.
x


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## stpcarly

To be honest when I first heard of this I was like wow, you go girl! Then after everything seemed to unfold I find the woman totally irresponsible and selfish. this isn't about having a big family or being a single mom. It is about being realistic with what you can provide for the children you bring to this world. She has no job, no source of real income. She doesn't want welfare, but foodstamps are welfare no matter how you look at it. And asking for donations is no better, she is still asking for a handout to support the children.

This woman has put herself first, her wants, her needs and then says, well i can provide for my children the love and attention they need  but says nothing about actually making sure she can provide they have a healthy and productive life. It takes more than love to fill a belly. 

And she is living off others to realize her own dreams, selfish. Her father is a contractor in iraq and the money he makes there helps to support the children. At first the papers did say it was her husband but then recanted that it was her father instead. So that leaves her and her mother all alone with the kids, and likely her mother doing most of the caring while she is off living her dream and making herself look and feel pretty. 

I know I sound harsh but the irresponsiblity just baffles me, honestly. I have no problem with big families, I'm from a big family, my grandmother had 13 kids. But they also had an income and enough room intheir home to make sure they were provided for. 

I do hope that she goes for welfare, although I don't think she deserve it for putting herself in a situation like this on purpose, but those kids do deserve whatever help the government or whoever can give them to ensure they are healthy and provided for. 

I know alot won't agree with me lolol that is okay.


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## loobylou713

Mannys Bird- well put. I totally agree with you.


linda


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## maybe-if

What worries me is her mum is obviously very unhappy with the whole situation. Yet from the sounds of things she relies 200% on her parent's support. 

From what her mum has said in interviews, she relies on her parents both financially and for physically looking after the children she has.

It's kind of like a woman going behind her husband's back to repeatedly have more and more children when the husband doesn't agree and can't cope to support them all. It's not about whether she's single or not. It's that her support network seemed to be buckling under the strain with 6 kids, so why have even one more?

The mum says she has no choice but to look after the grandchildren, because they are still her grandkids and she simply has to try and cope.

It's interesting that Nadya slates her upbringing and her parents, but she is still living at home? Why didn't she move out and go stand on her own two feet if they are that bad?

Nadya's mum may have slated her daughter. But her daughter has also publically slated her upbringing. Yet she still expects her parents to look after her kids? They can't have been that bad then!

If she really can afford to look after them all, and she proudly says she doesn't take handouts, why the website asking for donations?

I can also understand really desperate women wanting several embryos put back to increase her chances, but why all eight? Surely she could have used four, and if that didn't work then use the other four?

We wanted to go for SET (oops!) as I was very concerned about the slightly increased risks of a twin pregnancy. I want my kids healthy and happy. But we really did have a nightmare situation of only having one straw of my husband's very low quality sperm, and there was no guarantee a biopsy would find any more. None of our embies were suitable for freezing, and we were advised by our clinic to have two put back to maximise our very minute chances of being able to have DH's genetic child. I'm still not sure twins is a good idea, and it's not something I would choose, but I'm finally getting my head around it and we will cope (and we can afford it!).

I can't imagine even risking having 8. My brain simply can't process the idea. Especially when she's already proven her ability to get pregnant over and over. It's not like it was a last ditch attept to give her a first child at age 45 or something.

I think the whole situation is very sad and I don't know who I feel more sorry for.


----------



## Han72

Sorry Manny's bird but I don't think it's makes sense to compare an educated if somewhat delusional woman in a first world country to less well educated, impoverished women in a 3rd world country. It's NOT the same. You think those women in Africa choose to get AIDS? You think they want yet another child when they can't feed the ones they already have?  Do you think that the very poorest even have any idea what the term "quality of life" means?  In those countries, when the husband comes home and says I want to have sex and I don't want to use a condom, how much choice do you really think the woman has? She can either say yes and risk AIDS or say no and risk rape/a beating and/or being chucked out with her children to fend for herself.  What would you do?  

With regard to the issue at hand, I do feel that the lady has some issues which need to be addressed. I don't think she was in a position to look after any more children as it appears that she was already struggling with the ones she had. And I also feel the clinic/doctor was at fault, for putting so many embryos back in a woman who already had twins and already has 6 young children. If the other kids were a bit older then maybe it wouldn't be quite so shocking. I fail to see how anyone can bring up so many small children at the same time, even if she had a partner it would be a struggle. To choose to do it on her own is, I feel, irresponsible.


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## Be Lucky

Hi ladies.sum names i recognise-linda and nix.read in mirror 2day that the mother of the babies has received death treats.whatever ppl opnions.that truly awful berniex


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## Han72

Oh good grief!  What is wrong with people?! Yeah she's been irresponsible but what good would killing her do?!  There really are some sick people out there!


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## Cate1976

Hope no one minds me asking this, but what would you say is the minimum income a couple should be getting before having children? Reason I ask is that DH and I would probably be classed as low income, we both only work part time and get WTC. We are confident that we'll be able to feed and clothe any children we have properly and give them stable loving home. I'll be honest and say some clothes and toys might be got second hand but to us being fed, clothed appropriately for weathe and stable loving home are far more important than all the top gear.


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## Junnie

Firstly i dont know how much i believe about DEATH threats.. that came fromt he families PR guy... something tells me hes going for the sympathy vote

I can see people sending messages along the line of what wea re writting here.. 

You got to know that California is in a HUGE debt as a state and thats a lot of taxpayers problems.

Cate- I think if you can feed, clothe and shelter your kids your doing fine. Nothing wrong with 2nd hand (its more environmental as well!!) but this lady cant POSSIBLY on zero income support 14 kids.. hence her website etc.


----------



## ~ Chux ~

Junnie said:


> this lady cant POSSIBLY on zero income support 14 kids.. hence her website etc.


Well she says she saved and saved when she was working, so who are we to say whether she can or not??

Thinking back to some of the appointments I had when I was having tx, I can remember being told "stop wittering and just worry when I tell you to" when I asked questions, as well as being told certain scenario's "would never happen" (including me getting pg without at least IUI) amongst other things. I think ultimately the clinic has to take responsibility for putting so many back - who's to say they didn't say to her that she should have them all as they'll never all take, or even that she would naturally miscarry some if too many did??


----------



## Junnie

Chux from her interview... She said she saved for her treatment.. that money is no longer there.. All she said for raising the kids is that she wont use public money (im assuming she was expecting public support, the tv deals etc)


And I agree the clinic should have stepped back from the money issue of things and thoughtabout why she was PRESSURING them to put back all 6..


----------



## Caz

Junnie said:


> Firstly i dont know how much i believe about DEATH threats.. that came fromt he families PR guy... something tells me hes going for the sympathy vote
> 
> I can see people sending messages along the line of what wea re writting here..


Just out of interest, do you believe everything else that's written about her in the papers? 

It's just that, I tend to take everything I read in newspapers with a huge pinch of salt. That includes a lot of these new revelations about her and her lifestyle. I have to wonder how much of it is true and how much of it is sensationalist or biased reporting by a nation who are financially hurting and looking for someone to be angry at (you might only take a look through some of the older News Discussions thread on here to see how easily a story can be misrepresented - the £95 IVF one is a case in point!).

I just think it's very interesting that people have been quick to judge her and her actions without any of us really knowing the actual facts. 
Thinking back to the start of this discussion, I think there was a lot of talk about how she may not be entirely of sound mind. Someone a few pages back also suggested that. Now I am not saying we're all bonkers for having fertility treatment but, speaking as a serial cycler, I can tell you that for some IVF becomes something of a way of life and you almost don't know how to function without doign or planing the next cycle. It's almost, in a twisted kind of way, addictive. There's more than a few members on here who would testify to that (I think we had a discussion about it a while back too, on the babydust boards). 
I'm just thinking. 

Either way I am more inclined to question the sheer stupidity of the clinic for putting so many embryos back in one go with a woman who has had seveeral known successful IVFs already. I think they have a lot more to answer for than anyone else in all this.



Cate1976 said:


> Hope no one minds me asking this, but what would you say is the minimum income a couple should be getting before having children? Reason I ask is that DH and I would probably be classed as low income, we both only work part time and get WTC. We are confident that we'll be able to feed and clothe any children we have properly and give them stable loving home. I'll be honest and say some clothes and toys might be got second hand but to us being fed, clothed appropriately for weathe and stable loving home are far more important than all the top gear.


Cate  you are absolutely right about that. Personally I think there are more important things than money, although, obviously, having plenty of that helps! There is absolutely no shame whatsoever to buying second hand clothes / toys / equipment for your little one and there are many of us here who, if you judge us on income alone, would have no right to be spending it on IVF, much less a child! The desire to become a parent is not class or wealth based and we are all in the same boat. Some of us are lucky to get NHS funding, some not so; some of us can afford to dip into savings and some of us have racked up loans, credit cards and other debts to pay for treatment; I'll probably still be paying off my cost of IVF (relatively small in the grand scheme of things) when my DS starts senior school! I certainly can't afford to buy new of everything.

C~x


----------



## ~ Chux ~

Caz said:


> I just think it's very interesting that people have been quick to judge her and her actions without any of us really knowing the actual facts.


And isn't it so easy to find all the negatives??

How many times have IVF/tx stories been reported wrongly? How many times have we all cussed at the narrow mindedness of those that slate IVF etc? It strikes me that what is happening here isn't all that different i.e. making judgements about something we don't really know much about apart from what the media chose to tell us, and we all know what a load of cobblers that can be.


----------



## BABY2

I really did not want to come back to this thread and read more as I said what I had to say a few pages back , even though "new info" is emerging about this woman and her life.

HOWEVER...I had to respond to Manny's Birds comments and I am trying really hard to be tactful and polite and not to get political about it!!

I think it's a disgrace comparing someone, who everyone is saying is of sound mind and body, who can CHOOSE her lifestyle and the choices she makes in this life, to the atrocities going on in the "3rd world countries" where WE as "western civilised world" have pillaged, looted, stolen, ruled (some of the nicer words I can find) etc etc these countries and their wealth. Most of these women and children in the "3rd world countries" suffer like we have never known suffering, they are often abused/beaten/raped/sold etc and majority of times have no CHOICE in their life decisions, where they live, who they marry, how many kids they have...... WE OWE them all "those millions" that you are talking about.  Don't you think it's better for the "fat cats" ( USA,UK,FRANCE ETC) who rule the world to keep these countries in poverty and ignorance, no education, no health etc, so they can continue to rob them of their oil, diamonds,gold, aluminium ...etc etc.

I do not mean to offend you Manny bird, but please do some research into the history of what I am saying.


----------



## Junnie

Caz... its not just the papers im basing my opinion on it was more from her interview then anything... i know stories can be blown out of proportion but after LISTENING to the horses mouth so to speak its hard not to feel the way most americans/world does right now.

This story is not just about IVF or about the babies or about the mother. this is about how it takes a village to raise a child and with the current situation in the world and in california inparticular the village is mad... and the village is rebelling against the fact they are all tightening their wallets and cant afford things but someone comes along and abuses the system.

yes this is an ABUSE against the system and im not just blamming the mother im blamming the clinic. for social irresponsibility and for not thinking of the welfare of the children (past current and future of this lady) and for not thinking about the repercussions. 

This lady, OBVIOUSLY needs help mentally physically, emotionally, and financially (I mean how many of us are putting up websites for donations and really donations for what the fact she can have 8 kids at once?) . And again who wouldnt need help with 14 kids Im not denying that she will be exhausted and i DO wish she gets help that she needs. 

If this was JUST the media reporting i may think differently but this mother has come out and BLUNTLY said what the media has already said. 

Even going as far as slating her childhood saying how its becuase she was an only child-- Well should I as a mother feel bad because I dont plan on having more then 1


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## Junnie

I just want to say i dont wish these babies any harm. I hope they get all the love and attention they deserve.

One thing i want people to think about.. Say this happend in the UK... now we have a NHS... so picture this:

There is a budget for NHS that includes money for IVF treatments, medications for elderly etc.

Now picture a lady with 6 kids 3 of them disabled with various issues. Therefore taking some of that NHS money for treatments medication etc (which yes they are entitled to) 

Now said woman goes and gets some clinic (whom i do believe is ALSO responsible) to implant 6 embryos and BAM 8 babies are born... Now there were 46 staff memebers needed plus a few weeks for all 8 babies in SCBU plus we dont know if all babies are healthy but will need to be checked for various things as their sibilings have issues. (testing = more money etc)

Again all these children are entitled to the treatment... But imagine now funding for IVF, new heart medication, Drug and rehab programs etc have to be cut because this one family has spent the budget for the year.


Now in America- there is no NHS they have private insurance and sometimes they cover 100% other times they cover 80 you pay 20 etc. Now if you dont have the cover or its denied or the costs are being covered and in this case we are looking at MILLIONS for these wee babies to be born and stay in the hospital Who pays for that?

The taxpayers, the hospital cuts programs etc. I think thats why people are so angry

Hey if she was a millionaire and cut a check for the hospital tomorrow to cover all costs and had laods of money so that social benefits were not going to her then im sure half the people wouldnt have an issue. 

Like mentioned before I REALLY hope the clinic is ALSO held responsible for this.


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## Cate1976

Just want to say thanks to those who've said that they don't have problem with DH and I wanting to have children. I think Nadya has been irresponsible but he clinic has as well. I just hope she gets the help she needs to raise all 14 kids. 14 kids in a family can be supported, there's the Duggers (last I heard Mrs Dugger was pg with #16/17) and if anyone has seen Extreme Makeover Home Edition, they did a house for a family which had 13/14 kids, the lady let her brother and his kids move in with her when he got some illness. The house was too small for them but they managed and then EMHE built them a house big enough for them. It's the Rogers family from Alaska.


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## stpcarly

I have a few friends in California that are teachers and the one aspect that p's them off about this is the money that now the state is going to have to use to take care of these babies. Even if she doesn't get on welfare (although she is already receiving gov't help no matter what she wants to call it), there is still this huge hospital bill that will need to be paid. And while the state of California can't even afford to pay for their teachers, they are in the process of cutting over 30% of the teachers statewide, that is a lot of teachers out of work, a lot of teachers overstressed because they then have to pick up the slack. So there is just one small reason why some Americans are upset about this. AND she flashes it in the face, just casually mentioning speking over 150K for ivf treatments (and this isn't like she went cycle to cycle unsuccessfully like a lot of women do that spend a lot of money, she had at least five successful cycles before this last one) when everyone is losing jobs, not able to afford just the staples in life let alone the luxuries.

Personally I don't cae how much she spent, it was her money. And yes I agree this clinic needs to take responsibility (hey there is a way for her to get more money, sue the clinic) but ultimately it was her choice in the end and she could have said no. And if she was as obsessed with having kids as has been said and just from what we've seen, I can imagine her wanting them all in there.


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## swhattie

BABY2 said:


> I really did not want to come back to this thread and read more as I said what I had to say a few pages back , even though "new info" is emerging about this woman and her life.
> 
> HOWEVER...I had to respond to Manny's Birds comments and I am trying really hard to be tactful and polite and not to get political about it!!
> 
> I think it's a disgrace comparing someone, who everyone is saying is of sound mind and body, who can CHOOSE her lifestyle and the choices she makes in this life, to the atrocities going on in the "3rd world countries" where WE as "western civilised world" have pillaged, looted, stolen, ruled (some of the nicer words I can find) etc etc these countries and their wealth. Most of these women and children in the "3rd world countries" suffer like we have never known suffering, they are often abused/beaten/raped/sold etc and majority of times have no CHOICE in their life decisions, where they live, who they marry, how many kids they have...... WE OWE them all "those millions" that you are talking about. Don't you think it's better for the "fat cats" ( USA,UK,FRANCE ETC) who rule the world to keep these countries in poverty and ignorance, no education, no health etc, so they can continue to rob them of their oil, diamonds,gold, aluminium ...etc etc.
> 
> I do not mean to offend you Manny bird, but please do some research into the history of what I am saying.


You havnt offended me at all Hun, the idea of this thread, I hope, is for us all to share our opinions whether we agree with them or not....

I dont particularly like the do some research though! I have seen first hand how some of these women are treated, my mother has worked for charities that have helped countries like these for years, before I was born she lived in various villages nursing before coming back to start her family, Iv been myself.......... I would agree, many women are abused and forced and have suffered terrible violence - things they have no control over. Im not saying that they are out of order for having children or plan for it at all - however in some areas families, couples do choose a path, where no violence is present, where they literally have nothing to offer a child yet still continue to produce babies, where these children are literally bred to work the land from a young age, Iv been, Iv seen it and Iv spoken to these people and there reasons for wanting children, so many children are fundamentally no different from Nadya's, this is not a post with no research or experience behind it, its the truth, and whilst Im not saying that EVERYONE in a third world country is like this, and that a lot of them suffer terrible things on the other hand a lot of them dont and do choose it. This isnt about politics at all, leave that to the politicians, but what this is about is that a young woman, who has chosen her path, is being slated for monetary means, thats not fair, she worked, I dont think any of us know how long she worked for because unless any of us know her personally we cant pretend to know, so she has paid tax at some point surely, so why not benefits? Why do we feel that we can jump on her back over financial reasons when there are FAR worse situations......

If we are going to express contempt at what she has done then let that be on a medical basis for that is THE important part, the babies lives were and could still be, at risk, those babies could have been born and could have been in so much pain - I dont know because on the research part, I dont have a clue about the conditions that premature babies suffer, but I think they all do...

So, based in a country where there is a 'welfare culture' I think the slating of this woman based on money is wrong because we DONT know where her money is going to come from, we dont know her and we dont her family - for all we know her mother may have encouraged her and is now 'selling her story' WE DONT KNOW.

Again this post isnt intended to offend, its intended to give my point of view and that is democratic society we live in.


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## encore

oh c'mon.  if we all waited until we knew the facts, we'd never discuss anything!  i guess this is why the board is called "what the papers say" rather than "the cold hard facts".  call it criticism, call it judgemental, whatever, but (ALL talk of money aside) I wonder at the mental state of a woman who insisted on having a huge amount of embryos put back when she had clearly had had plenty of fruitful pregnancies prior, and she was in her early 30's.  and i wonder at the ethics of the medicos who acquiesced to her demands.  i don't care if she's got squillions.

these are the longest surviving octuplets in history i believe.  Errrr, doesnt that mean that at least one or more in each of the other sets of octuplets died?  and she, and the medico's decided that they'd bring another lot into the world.  bloody stupid.


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## swhattie

And i agree with that one hundred percent as you say ALL talk of money aside, this is totally totally irresposible, as I said in my first post, in terms of health it is ridiculous, I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to risk the chance of conceiving so many children when there is a massive risk that you will miscarry one, two, four, or even all of them, or that they may be born with health issues, I dont think anyone of us on this board would CHOOSE for our babies to be unhealthy so clearly something needs to be done and thats what Im saying, rather than people focussing on the money side surely the ridiculousness of the situation that 8 babies were born is the main point.


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## Junnie

OUCH these photos look painful and i thouht my bump was big!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/02/13/incredible-pictures-of-octuplets-mum-s-pregnant-bump-days-before-birth-115875-21119221/


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## swhattie

Jesus!!    

That is massive!!!


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## SleepyT

I agree that once the media jumps on your back you haven't got a hope of looking good - or even ok. There are hundreds of examples of this in recent years and I'm all for taking things we read with a pinch of salt and I am the first to say "there's two sides to every story".

There is nothing complicated or miselading about this woman. The stuff we don't know is how long she worked, how much dosh she did have and now has in the bank, how much she paid the clinic, the consultations and conversations between her and her doctors, where her money comes from, where it is going to come from, these are all the grey areas and to be honest I don't think alot of that matters.
What is fact is she has no partner, no job, no home, 6 children, 3 of whom are disabled and require special attention God love their little hearts. No source of income except food stamps and if none of this screams "STOP HAVING CHILDREN" to the average person then nothing will.
The woman has a PR consultant and an agent? Still no alarm bells?
I don't doubt she loves them, I don't doubt she will care for them (when she gets time off from her PR mission) as will her mum, who again, I'm not going to judge as we don't know her motives either - is she right/wrong to speak out - all irrelevant.

I think we are already seeing her as some celebrity and that makes a lot of this ok. She is not a celeb.
If this was your sister would you be ok with it all? I wouldn't, I would have told her after her hands were already full with a disabled child and siblings, to stop and take a hold of herself and pour her energy into the children she already has and when they are older and are in a stable home maybe try for another *one* as long as she and the living children were going to manage fine.

If she posted a topic on here saying "SIX KIDS AND WANTING MORE" and you read her post telling of her six children, their ages, disabilities, and her living with parents and the plan to transfer 6 more embryos in this cycle would any of us encourage her and tell her it's right?
Of course we wouldn't. We wouldn't say go for it cos they do in the third world, or go for it cos there's this Christian family who have 16 all doing fine. You would say don't be so selfish, make a life for the children you have brought into this world.

(Sorry I'm not getting at anybody, just think the whole thing is being glamourised and sensationalised and if we come back down to earth and the real world this is wrong and nothing makes it right.)


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## Han72

Well said Sleepy!

xxx


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## SleepyT

fanks Nix!


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## emms

All i have to say is that it was totally irresponsible of the clinic to transfer 6 embies into a woman with proven success at IVF. 
And also irresponsible of the woman to accept all the embryos.

Clearly neither the clinic or the lady in question had the best interests of any subsequent baby's, or the health of the mother in mind when transferring these embryos, if they had they *would not * have risked it.

I just think this woman needs to thank her lucky stars for the miracle that took place when all her little baby's were born safe and sound into this world.

I just  these little baby's all continue to thrive, and that they get the best start in life that is possible under the circumstances.

but cant help but think its unfair when some of us still continue to  every day for just one little miracle, and ladies like her are totally irresponsible and do something like this.

Emma.


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## Cate1976

Another thing as well, DH and I were on benefits when we got married in April 04 and started TTC. I was actively seeking work (got part time job in Oct 04) and DH wanted to work but dr wouldn't let him as she didn't think he'd cope, 2005 a new dr joined practice and DH talked to her and she said for him to look for part time work which is what DH wanted. Dr then left practice but in Feb 06 DH got job 17.5 hours week cleaning in local college. Yes mayne we shouldn't have been TTC while on benefits but we knew that we could provide all a child needs. Only benefits we get now are DH's DLA and *I get Carers Allowance. We also get WTC as well. If you're disabled, you can get tax credits if you work more than 16 hours a week.


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## loobylou713

I would like to say that if I could get treatment on the nhs i would not be going abroad for my treatment. Wouldn't it be cheaper for the nhs to fund me and make sure only 1 or 2 are put back rather than me come back with triplets you never know they might split and I end up with 6. When you are paying out thousands of pounds for this to work you take chances and I am for one a serial treatment woman. I am addicted to this I have known nothing else for the last 20 years. I will take what ever chances to make this work.

I know some of you won't agree but that's how it is and I know i am not the only woman who is like me.

Linda


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## laks

hi all

all i can say this woman was extremely selfish, inconsiderate and downright stupid.  She put the lives of those babies in danger by going ahead with the pregnancy, and why on gods earth would you want 14 children, if she had and common sense, which obviously she hasnt she could have donated those embryos to couples who are desparate to have children after many attempts or trying and years of trying.

It just goes to show that there are some very selfish and foolish people out there.

stupid cow


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