# Donor Insemination - Home or Away? Plus bit of a rant.....



## aimless1 (Aug 14, 2010)

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the comparative advantages and
disadvantages of having treatment here or abroad.  I was pretty set on going to Denmark (after a lot of consideration).  I went to see my GP yesterday (who is lovely) who said I would be better off staying in the UK because I would have better support etc etc.....  Now I am not sure what to do because I did go to the London Womens Clinic in London for one of their "inseminar" information days and it just came across as a bit methodical.
How did you pick a clinic?
On another note I am a bit irritated because my GP gave me such a grilling on my support network and money and work and where I was going to live etc etc. It was easy to answer because I have been thinking and planning for ages.  However it occurred to me after I left that most people planning to get pregnant don't have to justify how they are going to manage.  Just because there is no man involved it seems to give rise to the Spanish Inquisition.  Fact is I am better off (financially and emotionally) than I ever was when I was in a relationship......  anyway enough of a rant.  I am lucky my GP is generally very supportive.

Amy x


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## caramac (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Amy - I think that's a bit rich of your GP to quiz you like that - like you said if you were in a relationship she wouldn't have been asking you all those sort of questions! I have never mentioned to my GP that I am single! Even now that I am pregnant he doesn't know and has never asked (which is why I've not told him!).

I made the decision to go abroad mainly for the cost reasons. Doing IUI in the UK is about £1600 whereas at Reprofit where I went it was 200 Euros. So a very big difference as I felt that money would be better spent on more goes or on the baby instead. Also, where I live it would have been a 2 to 2.5 hour journey to one of the London Women's Clinics so just as much travelling as getting to Stansted for flight to the Czech Republic. Personally I don't feel that I missed out on any support by going abroad as I get most of my support from the ladies on these singles threads or on the main Czech boards.


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi Amy - I had the same grilling! Is your GP Catholic and moralistic like mine was? I even had the speech about "have you not though about adoption....you do know you are creating a baby without a father don't you"!!!! 

I have a diary link below if you click on the link....which may explain my reasons for choosing to go to Denmark clinic....

I conceived my DD who is now aged 9, at a UK clinic...I have since been to the LWC and Centre for Life, Newcastle....at costs of over £1500 per cycle of treatment, not including meds and scans and consultants fees.....

This was my main consideration in going abroad....I can in effect have 3 tries for 1 try in UK....in addition to the long waiting lists to see consultants...tests etc...AND no donor's here in the UK!

I am so pleased with my choice of clinic in Denmark....have had great support via e mail and phone....as opposed to cold clinical experiences of UK clinics...
Hope this helps in some way.....at the end of the day its your body, your choice....do what feels right for you honey!!xx


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## aimless1 (Aug 14, 2010)

Thank you for your  quick replies.
Unfortunately there is no hiding from my GP because she has been listening to my various issues for the past 18 months of awfulness - was pregnant, lost baby, split up with partner etc etc.  She knows it all ..........  plus she arranged counselling for me to deal with the end of the relationship (which was caused by him being unable to commit to having a baby....).  I didn't appreciate the grilling but I think she meant well.  She actually seeemed quite excited to see I am moving on and making plans.

The difference in cost is amazing....  I agree that i would rather save the money for the baby.  
It is reassuring to hear that going abroad has not made a difference to the support received.
Feel a bit better now.  Off to read your diary prickly!!  
Thank you both!
A x


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## Sima (Aug 10, 2008)

Hi Amy

I am sure someone will be along shortly who will be able to give you the whole spill about DI in the UK or abroad. Obviously the choice is yours but it does look as though a lot of people go abroad due to costs (DI in Europe tends to be a lot cheaper than DI in the UK) and availability of sperm (though you can import sperm into the UK as long as your clinic has a licence to do so). I would suggest you have a look at the single abroadies thread for some of the pros and cons http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=237402.210 and I think the IUI thread might also help too http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=243822.45

There are a few more logistics involved with going abroad since you would have to find a UK clinic who would be prepared to do your local scans and also you would obviously have to book flights and accommodation to fit in with your tx. Having said this it can still work out cheaper to go abroad even with all these costs. You will also have to think about how are you going to get your meds if you are having medicated DI using a European clinic. I think most of the girls get the foreign clinic to either post the meds across to the UK or will have to find a chemist in the UK which will accept a foreign prescription or you could pick up your meds when you go to the clinic for a consult.

I think you will find all clinics are very methodical. They need to be but hopefully you will find some friendly staff along the way.

I think your GP was just trying to be supportive but there is really no need for them to ask such questions of a patient. Mine didn't. If you have tx in the UK using donor sperm then you would have to see a fertility counsellor as part of the process and they would ask you all these kind of questions. You do not have to prove anything but it is more of a tick box exercise to ensure you have thought about the consequences. It think most of you will find many of us have been planning this for years so have thought all about the consequences and the sort of questions raised by your GP should really be aimed at some of those poor teenage girls who get knocked up very young because they want to have a baby to love them.

Feel free to post any where. You will get plenty of support on these boards.

Good luck

Sima.


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Not really sure what "support" your gp is on about- I've had treatment abroad- I looked into changing to a uk clinic and it was so much of a pain- the right person wasn't in failed to ring you back they wanted you to go to open evening etc... I decided the extra stress and cost wasn't worth it I'd prefer to travel. You want get access to a counsellor but your gp has done that. I also have private acupuncture which is easyier to afford with cheaper tx.

I'm lucky my gp is supportive and the only question she really asked was would I prefer to do it traditionally if I met someone- she did clarify that you can't get decent men on Nhs lol? She thought it was sensible to do it at my age- mind you I don't go and see anyone else in practise and you have to book 3 weeks in advance to get an appointment with her !


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Couple of additional thoughts on UK vs abroad although pretty much everything has been comprehensively covered above:

1. Donor anonymity or not -abroad donors will generally be anonymous. You and the child will never have more than a few basic physical details and won't be able to trace the donor. Here in the UK donors are all ID release - when child turns 18 they can request info, including identifying info about the donor - so they can potentially contact them. It's quite important to think about whether you want anon or ID release donor as this can impact your choice of clinic location. Pros and cons to both, very much a personal decision and one which is widely discussed and debated here on FF so I won't go into it here, just raising it as a consideration

2. 'support' - this has kind of been mentioned, but the type of support you will need is mostly practical/logistical in terms of a UK clinic to do scans, and if having medicated IUI (or moving on to IVF - hopefully you won't need to but worth thinking a little longer term too) somewhere to provide the meds etc. Many of the women here, myself included, have gone abroad and sorted out all of these things, but they are a step beyond simply having one clinic who does it all for you - and to some extent perhaps this is a little reflected in the cost differences - having tx abroad requires you to be a bit more proactive, in control of your tx and informed. No reason you can't be with all the help here, but again just pointing out that it is a little more logistically challenging

Specifically re LWC, they do provide a good, if somewhat mechanical service. And def in their favour is a large sperm bank so no waiting for tx because of shortage of sperm etc. However the cost is relatively high vs overseas clinics and I personally found myself treated more like a number than a person at times. Other thing I found with LWC is that they are very good with the 'easy' cases, they have a standard protocol which they apply and tend to stick to that for one and all. I turned out to be a complex case with various fertility issues and I think I would have benefitted from a different protocol much earlier on (rather than their stock response which seemed to be 'just bad luck it hasn't worked, let's keep trying')
However I couldn't have predicted this when I started out 3 yrs ago and in terms of the IUIs LWC was fine, it was really when we moved to IVF that I would have wanted a more tailored, proactive, individual approach to treatment

I guess in conclusion, for me the biggest advantage of abroad was cost, and then secondly that the level of service was better than the UK, so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend going abroad as long as you are comfortable with the anon donor issue, and pretty organised/happy to take charge of logistics etc

re your GP, quite interesting that she quizzed you so thoroughly about it. As has been mentioned here, UK clinics require you to see a counsellor who asks similar questions - this is to satisfy the HFEA criteria (I forgot the exact term but something to do with checking the prospective patient has considered the "welfare of the child" before embarking on treatment) but it seems strange coming from your GP - particularly as she is not in a position to provide - or deny - treatment to you. Abroad you will not be asked so it's a non issue 
As a single person having fertility tx you will come across a wide variety of attitudes towards your choice - from admiration, empathy and respect to criticism, lack of understanding and outright horror. I guess we've all had to develop a slightly thicker skin to cope with some of the more negative views. 
My own GP told me outright I was a fool for going abroad for tx and risking my health at 'some dodgy Eastern European clinic' and underlying this I think is probably her feeling that I shouldn't be doing this on my own in the first place. Interestingly she is a similar age to me and although I know nothing about her personal circumstances (can't recall now if she wears a wedding ring or not) I find myself wondering if her reaction has more to say about her than it does about me....either way I refuse to let it get to me and simply don't see her anymore 

Good luck with your decision making,
Suitcase
x


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## Roo67 (Feb 12, 2007)

Just to add, 

As you can see from my signature, I have been abroad for multiple FET and donor egg treatments which unfortunately ended in MC. The difficulty I found was support when things went wrong, it may just be my PCT but the EPU would not scan until 8 weeks, so would not give me an early scan etc so did feel a bit in limbo. Most clinics in the uk offer a scan around 6 weeks.

The other thing as others have mentioned is getting meds, but if you are happy to do a bit of shopping around etc then this is certainly doable, add to that the cost savings then I would also recommend abroad over uk.

R x


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Just a bit to add (lol) about meds situation - I haven't had any probs getting my meds so far...my clinic in Copenhagen faxed my prescription which was written in English, to my local Boots pharmacy for me....on a Saturday....and I simply collected and paid for it there....the cost of the meds and a nominal dispensing fee....clomiphene x 50mg @ 10 tablets was just under £10. Other meds may be more costly I guess.
Also scan situation - you have the option to fly out for your day 10 scan over there...the scan is included in the price. The flight takes an hour and half, and cost me £180 return....cheaper than my local BUPA scan of £250!
I have to acho the views already expressed on here...you do  have to be a bit more proactive in arranging things...flights, hotels. e mails etc....but all in all, for me anyway, this more than offset the cost saving and the possibility of further cycle attempts!

Good luck with whatever you decide honey!
Best of luck to everyone!


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Suitcase - just out of interest, are there any clinics you know of abroad where you can get ID release sperm?  

B xx


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## suitcase of dreams (Oct 7, 2007)

Bethany - you can import ID release sperm from European Sperm Bank (Copenhagen) or Xtyec (US) to Czech clinics - adds to the cost as anon Czech sperm much cheaper but is certainly do-able. I assume in Denmark you can get ID release sperm but I don't know as never had tx there...not sure about Spain

Suitcase
x


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## bingbong (Dec 9, 2008)

You can have tx with ID release sperm in Denmark, I think that it costs slightly more than their standard sperm costs. Other than that I think that you'd have to import it to everywhere else.

bingbong x


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks, ladies - you are all a weath of information  .  As you know, I am sticking with my KD for the foreseeable future (despite his not-so-good morphology  ) - but it's good to know what the other options are, just in case...

B xx


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Viatnova clinic in Denmark do ID release donors....and if you google cryobank in Denmark you can even look at the profile,baby pictures and history of their ID release donors!


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Just a quick addition to the above- you can' t be treated with id release sperm at consultant lead clinic in denmark as there is some rule about Dr not being allowed to use it. You can easily get it if you are treated by a midwife/nurse.


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## aimless1 (Aug 14, 2010)

I think my GP was being very over zealous.  Anyway I could easily answer all questions asked as they were all things I have spent many a wakeful night worrying about!  
I am going to stick with my Denmark plan - it just feels right and moneywise it makes sense.  Interesting that a couple of you have said that LWC was a bit mechanical.  When I went they were perfectly nice and professional but just a bit "clinical" - which I suppose is what they are!  This is a tricky journey to choose I supopose.  Mind you I am totally clear that its the right thing to do! 

A xx


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## Fuisha (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm personally going abroad because it is cheaper - to Denmark - part of EU and no reason to doubt the clinic's authenticity.
I hear good things from pricklyhedgehog about the clinic and she has more experience about this so I'm confident that the support given by clinic is not an issue.

Support- well there isn't more support just because you are treated in the UK but I do know that actually admitting you went overseas can be problematic for judgements amongst UK health staff.

I'm all a bit new to the overseas concept -but so far the support and advice from this site makes me feel so much more confident in going abroad.

As for medication, the article below might help, basically although boots website says need GMC reg, it is not actually true and pharmacists can provide overseas perscriptions, they may jst need a little encouragement!

http://chemistanddruggist.co.uk/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=259751&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=4096267&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=4096267&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=4096267&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=4096267&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=4096267

/links


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## sweet1 (Oct 5, 2008)

That's really useful info ladies on the ID- release donor availability in Denmark. If my 3rd IUI at Reprofit fails I am thinking of trying one of the Danish clinics (a change is as good as a rest and there are more flights to Copenhagen)! But I would still rwally like ID release. Is it only Vitanova that does it? What about the Copenhagen Fertility Center?


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## Fuisha (Aug 17, 2010)

I might be wrong but my understanding is that Copenhagen Clinic is doctor run and therefore anon donor only. Apparently there is some weird law meaning that Doctors cant do ID release, and therefore you'd need a midwife run clinic, dont quote me on that - others on this site have told me that..
Mx


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Fuishas right about about ID release rules in Denmark you will have to use midwife led clinic but that is not to say you can't take meds- I had treatment at Storkklinik and they often inseminnate women on medicated cycles they just can't pescribe the meds themselves. You would need a US to prove no more than 3 large follicles if you've had any hormone treatment and of course a method of being pescribed the drugs which is what pushed me towards reprofit, well that and I feel the jump to IVF is iminent for me so didn't want to have to change clinic again if that happens. 

If you pop onto the Dannish board theres a few threads that mention some of the other midwife led clinics.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Sweet SA - I'm confused - you are currently at Reprofit but you say that if you change clinics and go to Denmark you want to stick with ID release sperm.  But I thought since Reprofit is in Czech Republic that all the sperm there is anon?  So are you currently using anon sperm?  Or did you import ID release from somewhere else?  

B xx


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Another query for you Denmark ladies (I am possibly formulating a plan B  ) - do the Danish clinics have any restrictions on age limit and/or AMH/FSH levels?  I know some of the London clinics are rather selective about such things!

B xx


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Not as far as I know esp not for iui


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## sweet1 (Oct 5, 2008)

Yes Bethany I imported from Xytex. Great in theory but rather expensive considering 2 out of my 3 goes haven't worked and I only have 1 vial left!


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## Diesy (Jul 19, 2010)

Hi Everybody,

Yikes, my head is spinning!  After reading up on posts I think I'd like to go to Denmark, previously thinking of Reprofit.  So I think I'm going to follow Amy to Storkklinik.  My head is reeling with flights - planes/trains or auto mobiles from Scotland.  Plus do I need to get scanned before I go?  I'm generally by the clock but I'm worried about hitting the nail on the head timewise by going abroad.  I was thinking about getting a digital monitor thing to plot the timing - has anyone done that.  I like this idea that you can get a double IUI 24 hours apart...

OMG I've even done a spreadsheet of prices but I'm wondering whether the timing is going to be ok or if I'm better footing the bill with the clinic 15 mins away.  

To the girlies that have done the abroadie route - how'd that work out with the timing?  Am I projecting problems?  Being so far from a London airport is causing problems.  Or am I just having a mini meltdown    

Diesy


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Mini meltdowns allowed- it will all be fine- I'll pm you a lengthy reply. How exciting !


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi - I am in Denmark at mo....had my day 10 scan today at Copenhagen fertility centre....was fab! Everywhere everyone speaks great English...the clinic was lovely....and more importantly I have 5 lovely follicles.....day 12 scan and HCG trigger shot at clinic wednesday and then insemination! woop woop! 
I was soapprehensive about coming here....live in newcastle in the north east UK so far away from London...but it has been really easy...similar metro system....lovely sppedy and clear metro line directions....metro station right outside clinic / hotel and airport underground....couldnt ask for me...

Free day 10 and day 12 scans....and the insem is under £300 including donor sperm....
I would say go for it! You have nothing to lose....except over a £1000 in the UK per cycle!


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Prickly - wow, that sounds great.  Let's hope it works for you this time  .  Looks like you might be having your insem just a few days before me (but I am just at the clinic down the road, not as exciting as Denmark...)

Diesy - good luck with all your decisions - I bet it feels great to be actually doing something  

B xx


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Good luck Bethany!! Let me know how it goes for you!!


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## Fuisha (Aug 17, 2010)

Good luck Prickly and Bethany!!

Sending you both big hugs!!!!  and lots of prayers!!! 

Let me know how both of you get on!!! xxx


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi ladies -
Just wanted to drop in and send you an update...am so excited!! 

Had my day 12 scan today and there is now 3 follies on my left ovary all at 17mm....good size and ready to pop said Proff Lindenberg....so the nurse gave me my HCG trigger shot and I go in tomorrow for my IUID....have got all my requested donor characteristics...      

Proff has already told me about risk of multiple pregnancy from 3 follies....but more likely on a clomiphene cycle for singleton or twin pregnancy.

I was given choice of times for IUID and chose to go in at 32 hours after my insem....ovulation after the HCG trigger can occur between 24 - 36 hours after...sperm doesnt live that long in the uterus but the egg is viable for a lot longer...12 hours plus...so I figured this was my best chance in terms of timing....

I asked the Proff for his advice about older women (I am 39 - )...and asked him about using progesterone pessaries to prevent miscarriage and help implantation....

He kindly agreed to give me 2 weeks supply of pessaries.....he said taking progesterone supps can do no harm...and only good...although medical profession is still divided in their views about whether progest can aid implantation...he said it is definately worth taking them....woo hoo!


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## aimless1 (Aug 14, 2010)

I am excited about going to Denmark now hearing you are over there Prickly!
Morrigan- thank you so much for all the info - its a real help!
Diesy - did the mini melt down subside??  You coming to Denmark?


A x


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Aimless - when are you going? PM me if you need anything! Good luck!. 

I fly home day after tomorrow. Its been a long day today....clinic 8.20am this morning for my scan and HCG trigger...


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## Diesy (Jul 19, 2010)

Yes Amy, planning Denmark - inspired by you guys!  So, so, so excited!!!!  Morrigan doused the flames of my mini meltdown (flames, meltdown - yes, well!) with a fantastic big email full of practical advice.  Just as I was cursing being Scottish with Scottish airports.

Good luck Prickly - I read your Tx blog - really useful.  Crossing fingers for you!!!      
And flights from Newcastle - hadn't even thought of that airport!

Good luck Bethany!  Looking forward to hearing how you get on.      

Sending out big hugs to Everyone!!!!      

Diesy xxx


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi everyone - 

I don't know if this will help...but I have been posting on the other general IUI thread and all the girls on there are at various stages of treatment....some abroad...some at home...loads of useful info being shared...
Anyway, they have a table of where their members are at....some of you may have already seen it...and its useful to keep copying it and pasting it after posting....helps to know if others are at same point as you...and may help to talk to them too! So, I hope people don't mind me cross posting this list - I don't think anyone will mind as I know some of you following this thread are also on the other one anyway....but please feel free to add your own details to this table...

We can then support one another without having to try and remember where everyone is at!!??

Bethany915 - insem at UK clinic this week, Scan 31/8
Aimless - going to Denmark?
Diesy - planning to go to Copenhagen?
Prickly-hedgehog - IUID 2/9 at Copenhagen, OTD 16/9/10
Tahiti - Stimming
MinaMoo - 2ww - OTD 14th Sept
Gibs - 2ww - OTD 12/09/10
Venusin Furs - IUI in September
Astral - First IUI in September
Charlie - on 2 ww?
Wilpin - IUI basting 27/08/10 - 2ww
Beanie1 - on a break, IUI September
TQ - IUI 23/08, OTD 06/09...
Bethany - First IUI September (day 10 scan on 31 Aug)
Younggale - 2ww - OTD 10th sept
Claire -
Jooley - 2ww - OTD 12th September
Wilpin - TWW - good luck!
Daizymay - 3rd IUI cx by clinic due to Aug bank hol! Grrrrr!


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi Ladies

Sorry I have been a bit AWOL the last few days - work has just got manic!! (Not good timing   )  Should be a bit calmer tomorrow thankfully - which is good as I have my 2nd scan in the morning.

Prickly - Denmark sounds great, I would be so tempted to go there myself if this cycle doesn't work (but I can't see myself persuading KD to go - he hates flying and I'm already asking a lot of him   ).

Anyway, good luck, Pricky, with your 2WW - well done for getting to insem day and actually getting it done!  And well done for moving your appt time to give you the best chance   .  And good luck too, to Amy and Diesy, starting out on your journeys to Denmark (literally and figuratively!) and Fuisha too (are you going to Denmark as well?!) And to everyone else in the middle of tx     

AFM, I had my Day 10 scan on Tuesday.  Looked fine - one follie on each ovary, 11 mm and 12 mm, endometrium 4 mm.  (It's natural cycle so I was actually amazed to have one on each ovary - thought it would just be one in total.  I assume one of the two will probably stop growing.)  The nurse reckoned I would have a longer than 28 day cycle based on the size at Day 10, so my next scan is tomorrow (Day 13) and it's odds-on the IUI will be Monday (Day 16).  However, according to my LH sticks (which I do religiously every month anyway), I am concerned I am closer to ovulation than that and will ovulate Saturday or Sunday.  If it's Saturday, I don't think it's worth going ahead on Monday (the clinic being closed at the weekend - grrr   ).  If Sunday, I'll give it a go on Monday just in case.  I have done a bit of research and it seems that natural cycle follies grow more slowly than stimulated ones, so I'm just keeping my fingers crossed   .

I know people say that the 2WW is the worst bit, but for me, I am looking forward to the 2WW as it means I won't have to organise ANYTHING for 2 weeks and can just sit back and relax.  So far I seem to have been doing so much organising / juggling that I will be astounded if this IUI actually goes ahead.  If I manage to get the right people in the right place at the right time, avoid ovulating at the weekend, avoid clashing with some critical meeting at work, avoid the days that KD can't do, avoid upsetting KD's partner, get all the consent forms filled in by KD, get DS to nursery in time for me to get to the clinic at the right time, ensure KD gets to the clinic at the right time - and have at least one follie to play with - that will be a huge achievement.  Oh, and the final thing - my clinic wants to see my passport (for ID purposes) - and, guess what, I don't know where it is    (haven't been out the country since Oct 200.  So, even if I have all the above in place, I may be stumped by the lack of a passport (it's not like I'm not a UK citizen).  I offered them my work pass (which has my photo on) but they said it had to be a passport.  Guess how I will be spending my weekend?!   

Anyway, I'll keep you posted after my scan tomorrow.  Prickly - I've updated your list - "Bethany" and "Bethany915" are both me, so I've consolidated.

Bethany915 - 1st IUI: Day 13 scan 03/09/10, IUI hopefully 06/09/10
Aimless - going to Denmark?
Diesy - planning to go to Copenhagen?
Prickly-hedgehog - IUID 2/9 at Copenhagen, OTD 16/9/10
Tahiti - Stimming
MinaMoo - 2ww - OTD 14th Sept
Gibs - 2ww - OTD 12/09/10
Venusin Furs - IUI in September
Astral - First IUI in September
Charlie - on 2 ww?
Wilpin - IUI basting 27/08/10 - 2ww
Beanie1 - on a break, IUI September
TQ - IUI 23/08, OTD 06/09...
Younggale - 2ww - OTD 10th sept
Claire -
Jooley - 2ww - OTD 12th September
Wilpin - TWW - good luck!
Daizymay - 3rd IUI cx by clinic due to Aug bank hol! Grrrrr!

B xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

hi girls

prickly denmark does sound good..... i'm considering my second diui and had thought i would go back to reprofit even tho i had  a bit of a nightmare there,  but i thought maybe at least i had kindof got used to the place and wouldn't have the stress of finding my way round etc.  However, seeing what you have put has really made me think i might switch.

Copenhagen Fertility Centre is it? I'll have a look on the denmark boards.  And £300 sounds good.  I thought Reprofit were the best value at 200 euros for tx and sperm but £300 including 2 scans sounds like great value, even if it was 1 scan it would save the costs from over here.  I guess maybe though having your scans over there could mean you have to stay longer so possibly paying more on accommodation. 

I would imagine having 2 scans can give them a much better idea for the best timing of your trigger shot?  And thereby more liable to hit the spot as it were?    Any thoughts on coughing up for more than 1 scan for likelihood of success would be good from anyone.

GG X


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## caramac (Mar 21, 2010)

GG - Reprofit will do your scans for free if you're over there.


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

That clinic does sound good but have a quick look at accommodation costs in Denmark prob half again more expensive than Brno - if your number crunching - have a look at laterooms.com to get an idea- 2 star also sometimes means shared bathroom with while landing not ensuite!


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

thanks girls, cheers caramac wasn't sure i knew that.  i just read somewhere that denmark might have a cut off age of 41 and i'll be 42 this month so it might be a waste of time me looking any further into it anyway...have sent copenhagen fert centre an email so will wait to see what they say.

re the scans do you think if i had a day 9/10 scan here would they do another for me on day 11/12 do you think, if i said that i wanted some more reassurance of when to tx? or if i was prepared to spend longer there would they do 2 scans or just the 1?


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Gg I had scan day 8 in uk and another one at reprofit on day 10 and they scanned right before my  iui. I got the impression you could pretty much get one when ever you needed- when I asked stephan he said of course like it was odd I asked. I'm sure if I wasn't ready for triggering they would of done another one.


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## caramac (Mar 21, 2010)

GG - if you had a day 10 scan here in the UK and wanted another once you were out in Brno I am sure that Reprofit would oblige. I have often had further scans once I am out there if the results of my day 10 scan haven't been great. However, if the results of your day 10 scan look fine then Stepan will often tell you when to trigger based on those results, and obviously once you've triggered then they do your IUI 24 hours later. I definitely think the cheapest way to do things (but get the optimum time at the clinic) is to have a day 10 scan here in the UK and then fly out to Brno on day 11 (might need to go via Prague or Bratislava if direct flights not available). Then go into the clinic on day 12 for a further scan and advice on trigger/IUI. Aim to fly home on day 14 afternoon.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hi all

How do you ladies have such short cycles?  I had my basting yesterday and that was Day 16.  Admittedly, it should have been done on Day 15 (if the clinic had been open at the weekend, but you've heard me moan about that one before   ) - but anyway, the point I'm making is if I went abroad for treatment, I think I would have a hard time knowing in advance when to book the flights.

But maybe things are more predictable with medicated cycles?

GG - I would be interested to hear about any Denmark age limits too.  I am nearly 43.  

Of course, this is all hypothetical since I am quite happy with KD and I'm willing to give my UK clinic another couple of tries before I re-evaluate....  But it's nice to know what the options are   .

B xx


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

i had a scan day 9 as, even though stepan had said do day 10 timing didn't work out that easy and he said day 9 would be fine.  then based on the results of that he said to trigger on day 12 and i had tx on day 13.  i guess i would just feel a bit more reassured having another scan that things were still going in the right direction and Stepan was getting the timing right... i never knew they were included or, at least, that you could ask for one.  i guess because of my age i don't think i've got many more goes at this and would soooooooooo much like it if i didn't have to go through the whole ivf roller coaster as from what i've been told my own eggs might not be up to the job and that's a whole other issue to start considering which i'd rather not...

if i go to brno again (maybe my trip won't be so stressful/farcical this time as at least i will have an idea how it works) i think i will have a day 9 or 10 scan here (depending on timings) and, as you say caramac, fly out on day 11 (as i did before via bratislava) and as well as the trigger on day 12 ask for another scan (although this fell on a sunday but i did end up at the clinic anyway as i didn't know how to trigger so i know there can be people there).

It just seemed a bit 'left to chance' that i had scan on day 9, triggered day 12, tx day 13 with only that 1 scan to go on several days before.  i'm pretty new to all this stuff but from what i've read there's a chance i could have already ovulated?  How would/could i know that? i guess i can't find that out now?  Does someone only find out they've already ovulated when they have another scan closer to tx and find that out and then it has to be abandoned?

I'll let you know about Denmark Bethany, hopefully should have an email tomorrow but you might not need any of this info hopefully...

Oh regarding flights etc, i was advised to wait for day 1 of cycle then arrange everything.  Obviously i had looked around those dates at what was available (and checked out local scanning options) but waited until that day as you can't really know anything worthwhile before that (unless you're absolute clockwork) and i ended up staying till day 15 (waaaaaaayyy too long, so bored) as i'd been scared by reading on here that if follies take their sweet time there could have been stress involved if i'd had to postpone flights, lengthen hotel stay etc. so for my first go i was there a lot longer than i'd like really.  Next time i want to try and be as efficient and cost effective as poss, another reason i may give reprofit another go cos at least i know the system slightly.

Oh and btw i wasn't on a medicated cycle so wasn't really in control of anything going on timing wise, i only took trigger shot..

my cycle is usually around 29/30 days and it appears i have my lh surge around day 13/14 but i haven't really done all the regular checks i've done one month of opk sticks etc so to be honest i'm not entirely sure, again that's maybe another reason i wouldn't mind getting another scan.
GG X


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## bingbong (Dec 9, 2008)

just wanted to say that I only ever had one day ten scan in england and it still worked for me 

Bingbong x


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

I had an cancelled cycle due to early ovulation - you can only really know with scan- because of this I now go for day 10 scans to make sure it's not early- and possible have to have a second scan if it's taking it's time. 

Are you going to take drugs this time ?


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

i really don't know what to do morrigan as Stepan said my results were pcos like so i was worried about risk of multiples.  this is another reason i've been considering denmark as they actually want some of your medical history and information and then have a phone consult with you to discuss donor, possible meds etc...at the moment i feel like i'm scrambling around in the dark and actually have no idea if the tx i had was anywhere near the right time/right type for me....

in some ways i'd like to go medicated to boost things in whatever way i can and to be able to time things better but not at the risk of quads/abandoned cycle (i think i could probably get my head round twins and might actually quite like it but that's my limit coping wise in one go i think!) so i don't know what to do as not being under a consultant here i feel like i've never really discussed it properly with anyone with expertise....

i'm trying to get referred to st mary;'s at the moment for the recurrent mc clinic but want to have another tx next month regardless as there may not be other underlying issues and i could get a viable pregnancy but at least when i see them i know i'll get to see a specialist to talk to but until then feel out on a limb due to going abroad...and have no idea if i'm taking the right courses of action...

GG x


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## ♥JJ1♥ (Feb 11, 2006)

GG some women have PCO but not PCOS - could you be in this category- ask Coco she is the expert on this!
L x


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## pricklyhedgehog (Aug 9, 2010)

GG - clinic won't inseminate you if you have above 3 follicles (some will only do it if under 3!)....my last cycle in Denmark I had 2 follies at 17mm and one at 16mm day of my trigger....went in next day for basting and had another scan....pleased I did as this showed for definate only 2 follies had ruptured...only 2 corpus luteums were visible and the other follie showed as having shrunk back....
I am pleased I had scans on day 10,12, 13 as I would never have know all this...my day 10 scan showed 5 follies around 12mm!!! So - its de worth having scans!! Reprofit and Denmark all do them included in your insem cost...its only the added flights / hotels that boosts the costs up!...

From my experience, being under consultants in the UK for my different IUID cycles....I gained more info from FF than I did from them...in fact they all confused me even more sometimes...as different clinics had so different treatment protocols and practices!!!

Go with what your heart tells you GG - YOU have to feel comfortable in the path you choose for you...but the info on here is invaluable as you know it comes from other women in the same place as you...not a clinic with success rates and financial merits to consider! much love!


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Personally I wish I tried clomid earlier but I was like Phedgehog and had 5 follies at first scan- and only two got big for iui - then again I've been told my borderline luteal phase defect us due to poor follicle growth so clomid should help- I'm also seeing it as dress rehersal for moving to ivf. Niether reprofit or dannish clinics will let you take big high order multiple risk.


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

so i guess seeing as i only had day 9 scan i had no idea what was going on on day of tx....

on day 9 i had 'four significantly large follicles measuring 5mm, 10mm, 13mm and the largest leading follicle measuring 14mm'...from what you're saying ph would denmark have inseminated me on that basis?  or would that have counted as above 3 follicles?  if i'm like this naturally would any of you think clomid would/could be risky?  And thanks JJ1 i will ask Coco (is that coco1?? or is there a cocochanel?)  Or i suppose it's possible that, in the absence of another scan, my follies could have all shrunk back and there was nothing to fertilise?  When i was actually having tx and Dr Stepan asked about my scan results and follie size he then made jokes about possible twins and i didn't know whether to believe him until i posted some questions on here and realised he wasn't joking  but i guess without a scan closer to tx i have no idea what was actually going on and whether any of those follies were still viable?

Also, ph, this is stuff i don't understand....when you talk about follies rupturing and corpus luteums etc....are the corpeus luteums what we actually need to have developed in order for it to work?  So the follies grow, rupture to give rise to a corpus luteum which is what actually becomes fertilised and creates and embryo with the sperm?  Sorry to go back to basics but a load of this stuff i've just never come across before.

And Morrigan, what does your borderline luteal phase mean?  and what test would find out about that?

GG x


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Gg- corpus luteum is normal cyst left after follicle has ruptured the egg- its responsible for producing progesterone which maintains your lining - if the egg release isn't fertilised then corpus luteum will breakdown and et voilà af- if egg fertilises it sends a signal to corpus luteum to remain so progesterone levels stay high and lining doesn't breakdown- placenta doesn't take over job of producing progesterone until after 10 weeks ish. This part of your cycle is called luteal phase (lp) and is normally fixed part of your cycle ie af comes same number of days post ovulation- if this is short the lining could breakdown before the embryo has had chance to implant and send the signal. Apparently a true luteal phase defect is a lp less than 10 days. You would have either short cycles or not enough days between ovulation and af. This can show it's self with a low 21 day levels of progesterone. I've been told that my follicles did not grow adequately and that's why my cycles are short as small follie= small corpus luteum and therefore low progesterone.

It's natural to start with loads of follies at day 8 9 ish and then one or two will become lead ones and rest stop growing.

I have been told that post 35 the average number of iui's for pregnancy is 4-5 as out eggs are getting on a bit ! It might just be luck of draw even if timing is perfect etc..

Exuse spelling on that essay- on my phone !


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

greatgazza said:


> my cycle is usually around 29/30 days and it appears i have my lh surge around day 13/14 but i haven't really done all the regular checks i've done one month of opk sticks etc so to be honest i'm not entirely sure, again that's maybe another reason i wouldn't mind getting another scan.
> GG X


GG - you were asking whether you might have ovulated early on your previous tx - with trigger day 12 and basting day 13. Based on what you have said about your cycle length / LH surge, I would have thought you are likely to be ovulating naturally day 14/15 (which would mean trigger day 13/14), so I think it's possible that the opposite was the problem - that they triggered you too early and your follies weren't big enough. I did some research on growth rate of follies a couple of weeks ago (to try to work out if I would ovulate on a weekend day - which I did - but that's another story  ) - anyway, it appears that follies grow more slowly in a natural cycle than a medicated cycle. Hopefully, Stepan would have taken that into account, but it would be worth mentioning if you go back to Reprofit.

I completely agree with you that it is much better to have two scans prior to trigger. With one scan, they are assuming that your follies will grow at a certain rate (based on average growth in the literature, I assume), whereas with two scans they can calculate the rate for you individually. Also, you mention being concerned about having 4 follicles on day 9 - to me, that sounds entirely expected at day 9, but as you were doing a natural cycle it's very likely that only one of those follicles would have continued growing to ovulation day (that's why twins/triplets are rare in naturally conceived pregnancies). However, if you decide to take Clomid, the chance of multiples would increase.

Finally, as you sound like you would like some advice from a consultant, have you thought about an email consult with the Center for Human Reproduction in New York? They are doing free email consults until end December; I believe you could also have a phone consult but you would need to pay for that. They also have a "special interest" in older women  . Website is:

http://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/contact_us.html

Morrigan - you mention you have a "borderline luteal phase defect" and that a true LPD is 10 days from ovulation to AF. I have noticed mine has decreased over the past couple of years - it used to be 14 days, now it's more like 12. Would that count as borderline LPD? I ask because I know a lot of the girls on the IUI part 214 thread are taking progesterone "just in case". Wondered if I should do the same... Also, do you know what value is classed as "low" for 21-day progesterone?

B xx

/links


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## greatgazza (May 27, 2010)

Cheers for the info girls.  I feel so uninformed sometimes and like i haven't done my homework and i'm asking dumb questions but there are some things i wouldn't even know to research cos i've never even heard of them yet! does that make sense?

Bethany, that sounds really interesting about the centre in NY, thanks will look into that. Yes i would really appreciate just talking it all thru with a consultant altho as has been said by others i've got most info from here but sometimes i feel there's so much info in different places on here i struggle to even remember where i've posted, i cut and paste bits into word docs but as it's all coming so thick and fast i haven't organised myself very well or got any kind of system and can't find stuff when i need it and get in a flap.  Would just love to have the chance to tell someone about my history, ask all the questions, get all the answers and have it all in one place but again, i think it was morrigan who said she'd had more help on here than from all the consultants put together so i'm probably imagining some amazing sympathetic doctor with all the time in the world that doesn't actually exist!

i'm also very curious now about what you think about my timings.  Can you clarify for me does the LH surge indicate that you ARE actually ovulating or does it indicate that ovulation is DUE.  It's just your thoughts about me ovulating naturally day 14/15 have confused me a bit.  if my lh surge - i actually only tested it for one month so can't be scientific about it but to use this as the example - was on day 13 should that not be the day i should get basted?  also i didn't know anything about lining thickness and follie size and what they should be/what was good so i posted my day 9 results on here and a lot of the girls thought they looked good but i would be very interested in knowing if there's a chance my timing could have been off if i basted too early.  that defo means wherever i go i'm having as many scans as i can!

well hopefully one way or another i'm gonna get some kind of email or phone consultation with someone around my next tx and even if i go to reprofit where i don't get any more info i'll be more assertive and ask for scans so i feel more reassured they're timing it right.

When time (age wise) is really of the essence it seems a bit blase to just average stuff out, guesstimate a bit, and kinda hope for the best.... unfortunately i'm feeling that way about how reprofit do things..

GG x


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Bethany- I haven't actually been diagnosed with lpd but I know mine I around 11 12 days which is short. Consultant this was due to poor follicles in 1st half of cycle. I'm concerned it's result of reproductive system winding down but it's been easy to be paranoid! I had 21 day progesterone which was 28 and gp said it showed I ovulated but should be above 30. The next month I did it on day 18 as that was nearer 7 days after ovulation for me and it came back 35. It was on that basis she prescribed me progesterone for treatment. For my first few cycles it lengthened them to 28 days. 

Gg- lh is hormone that triggers ovulation you get surge 24- 36 hrs prior to ovulation - lh hormone very similar in structure to hcg which is why they can use hcg to trigger. Lh takes 12 hours to show in your urine which is why the timing difference from natural surge and triggers.


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## Bethany915 (Aug 1, 2010)

GG - Just to add to what Morrigan has said, most clinics do basting 24 hours post LH surge (if you are not being triggered). When a trigger is used, I believe many go for 36 hours post-trigger (but mine does 24 hours post-trigger.) Obviously, with a trigger it is easier to time it so than 36 hours fits in nicely with the clinic opening hours!

Morrigan - good point about the LH surge not showing up in your urine until 12 hours post actual surge, I hadn't thought of that before. That makes my chances even more remote this time (LH surge detected Sat morning, basting Monday late morning). Oh well, chalk it up to experience  .

GG - A quick one on that topic - be aware that if your clinic closes at the weekend and your 24 hours post-surge happens to fall during a weekend (as mine did last week), you either have to baste late (with lower chance of pregnancy) or not at all  . So best to find a clinic open at the weekend if you can!

As for your follies, I saw in an earlier post you said your lead follie was 14 mm at Day 9. My clinic triggers at 18 mm, so assuming Reprofit is the same, basting on day 12 would assume your follie grew by 4 mm (from 14 to 18 mm) in 3 days (days 9 to 12). That does sound entirely reasonable (coincidentally, that is precisely the growth rate of my follie on my last cycle, as calculated by the scans - and mine is natural cycle too). So the trigger / basting could in fact have been well-timed. However, I was suggesting that if you tend to ovulate day 14/15, you may in fact grow follies more slowly than that - in which case trigger / basting might have been too early. But it's impossible to say for sure without a second scan.

Morrigan - thanks for LPD info. You say it lengthened your cycles for a few months - did it then stop working or did you stop taking it? I might ask my GP about this as mine at 12 days sounds on the short-ish side. Not sure if this is really within her expertise - she might just suggest Clomid (which I've read can help post-ovulatory wise as well as pre) - but I'm not keen on anything that would increase the risk of multiples (twins plus a toddler would just be too much on my own!!  ). I would ask my consultant at the clinic, but they charge you £160 as soon as you cross his threshold. Maybe I should follow my own advice and try an email consult with CHR.... Has anyone tried that, by the way? If so, was it useful?

B xx


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## morrigan (Dec 8, 2009)

Bethany noone knows what level each persons individual surge needs to reach to trigger so don't give up.

My experience would suggest gp won't know too much about it- my lpd is lengthened by progesterone but I only take it when cycling- my lh surge has ranged from day 10-13. I was triggered on day 10 this time with iui day 11 so would expect af day 24/25 without progesterone and day 28 with. Progesterone won't hurt which is how I looked at it ( well side effects are hideous) in my second cycle I was really ill on my otd had severe abdo pain and then bled really badly for a few hours- no idea why was going on but I vowed I'd take progesterone after that! I'd suggest the cyclogest rather than crinone when you ask for it - much better I thought- I won't go into details but both are gunky crinone is alot gunkyier!


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