# 6 OE MC's & now DE bfn - any ideas please?



## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi I've just had my first DE cycle (PGS tested) and it was a bfn   

Prior to this I've had 6 OE MC's from 20-5 wks over the past few years (late loss & other 1st trimester MC's & a CP - only had a bfn once ever before). I don't know why the DE cycle didn't work, altho I had an unusually difficult transfer (catheter had to be changed - I've read this is not good!) It looks like things have got worse & worse with my body fertility-wise!   I'd be really grateful for any ideas  

In 2016 I had my level 2 tests done (mostly normal, only slightly elevated CD19 cells - but I read this is mainly treated with progesterone anyway) & an endometrial biopsy (all normal). I have elevated anti thyroid antibodies  (around 400 I think last year?) & a multi nodular thyroid, so have 25mcg levothyroxine. I saw an endocrinologist last year who recommended that. He also put me on metformin twice a day, but I stopped that this year as my GP couldn't see the point, as I don't have pcos or diabetes - maybe I should have stayed on it? Otherwise I'm fairly healthy. I've had low dose prednisolone & clexane, progesterone & all the other usual ivf meds. I've heard Intralipids can be a bad idea with thyroid issues so avoided them this time. I also didn't bother with a scratch, as most of my pregnancies haven't needed one - again maybe I should have?

My ideas are: have an investigative hysteroscopy and maybe redo hidden infection tests (had these already - I had a twin MC the following cycle). Maybe see Dr Gorgy, as someone told me if you have an immune issue, things may be even worse with DE as the body attacks something foreign?? I'm terrified of the cost of Dr Gorgy though & not sure how useful it's likely to be? It this just a numbers game?

I've so far been unable to get over my absolute terror of the ivf not working & not having children, due to all the MC's I've sadly had! It's been horrendous   But sometimes I've felt inspired and obviously had to keep going   I've tried to relax, learnt a lot of humility, not sure what else I can do. Moving onto DE was hard enough but that's the least of my worries now!

We've fortunately got a few frozen embryos still to get PGS tested (the last batch produced only 1 normal embryo out of 6 tested on 25 yr old eggs!), but can't afford to do anything until next year now anyway!! The expense of it all is also terrifying!   Can't believe I'm 43 and still waiting to start my family!

Anyway any ideas would be gratefully received - clutching at straws a bit here! xx


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Hi
Been there as well as you can see from my profile.
The fact that you conceive so easily with your own eggs is telling me that it can't be a quality issue. The solution to your problem is to find how to keep a pregnancy not how to achieve one. I see that you have done NK cells (i personally don't believe in this) and thrombophilia tests and you don't seem to have a problem. 
I think you should try an hysteroscopy and check if there is any scar tossue. I know i will have another one if i miscarry again. At the moment I am at a stage that i use clexane and baby aspirin. I just had an FET and sadly failed.


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

Apologies forgot to ask. Has your husband been checked out as well? Not only the simple sperm analysis. I am talking about ROS and DNA fragmentation


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi thanks Efi and I'm sorry about your FET and MC's too. Yes I think a hysto would be a sensible idea. The last time I had one was over 10 yrs ago and a lot's happened since then! I had a drawn out mc with medical & then surgical removal at the start of the year, so it would be good to eliminate any possible scar tissue etc. 

My DH has had DNA frag and SA, all was fine (original reason for ivf was mfi but this has got better recently - my eggs on the other hand probably won't have!). What is ROS? 

Thanks for replying


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## Laquinn (Sep 4, 2017)

Hi Strawberry,

So sorry to hear about your journey so far   We're just considering IVF just now but having suffered losses last year I want to get immunes tested first and I too have heard this about DE with immune issues.

Might be worth listening to your endo or getting a second opinion? Have you tried cutting out gluten? My TPO antibodies have halved since I went gluten free.

I'm getting a HysCosy done next month as I read that tubal blockages can affect implantation with IVF xx


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## Baking Queen (Jul 7, 2014)

Hi Strawberry
So sorry to hear about your losses. I had 5 failed cycles with my own eggs and 4 failed DE cycles before having my little girl. I believe the thing that made the difference for me was an immune protocol - first time trying it we got my little girl. I appreciate other people have differing views but in my case the evidence is clear. I didn’t go to Dr G - I went to a clinic in Epsom that specialises in helping people who’ve had multiple miscarriages. I also took Metformin although I do have PCOS and ended up with Gestational Diabetes because my consultant in Epsom said it helps prevent miscarriage. 
Please feel free to ask me any questions and I hope you can work things out.
BQ. xx


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## Efi78 (Jun 26, 2017)

StrawberrySundae said:


> Hi thanks Efi and I'm sorry about your FET and MC's too. Yes I think a hysto would be a sensible idea. The last time I had one was over 10 yrs ago and a lot's happened since then! I had a drawn out mc with medical & then surgical removal at the start of the year, so it would be good to eliminate any possible scar tissue etc.
> 
> My DH has had DNA frag and SA, all was fine (original reason for ivf was mfi but this has got better recently - my eggs on the other hand probably won't have!). What is ROS?
> 
> Thanks for replying


Hi
It's reactive oxygen species in sperm. But if he has normal dna it is unlikely he has high ROS.


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## Ljp64 (Nov 23, 2013)

Hi *Strawberry Sundae*
So sorry to read about your BFN. When I switched to DE I got a BFP on my first transfer. I thought "this is it!", DE is foolproof! It was a chemical. I then had went for a FET with the remaining embie. The embryo didn't survive the defrost. We started a fresh cycle with a new donor. Horrible transfer, BFN. On the final transfer I had my son. 
I have an under active thyroid so I take 175 mcg thyroxine, but I'm naturally overactive (I've had radioactive iodine treatment). I saw Prof Quenby for NK cell test s but that was negative; I'd certainly recommend her. I had a hysto at my clinic and some bloods ad found out I am borderline for Antiphosholipid syndrome so I took clexane. For my successful cycle I also had intralipids for the first time. Even though I don't have immune issues I'd heard it could help so I just went for it. I also had a scratch with Prof Q. I took baby aspirin too, pretty much until the end of my pregnancy. Ditto the clexane.

What I want to say is, my donors were in their twenties, can't remember their exact ages and they were proven. But few healthy young women get pregnant the first time they try. Our chances are high with DE but sometimes it takes a few goes. Get yourself and OH checked if he he hasn't had sperm fragmentation done and with those Frosties you have a very good chance. 
Good luck!


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi Laquinn, thank you   and I'm very sorry about your losses too, so sad having such a late loss  . I saw a kinesiologist and had NHS blood test once for gluten - both showed no problem but maybe re fertility it has more impact? I think getting second opinions and feeling fully investigated is helpful, nothing to wish you'd tried then!   I thought sedations, anaesthetics  & operations were behind me but obviously not   Good luck with your hysto & if you have ivf 

Hi Baking Queen, thanks so much for replying also   and I'm so glad you eventually got there   It's very reassuring to hear stories like yours, as my journey is getting longer & longer! Which clinic did you go to may I ask? And what immune tests/treatment were you given? Maybe I should resume the metformin  

Ljp64 thank you very much as well   Again it's such a relief to hear about others getting there even after several losses & failures. I'm glad you've got your LO as well   I've been on clexane most cycles and aspirin, but my clinic told me not to have aspirin this time, as I was already on clexane & id had several MC's. So many variables!   I saw Prof Quenby last year for my biopsy (wow did that hurt!) 😭 All was fine. I'm thinking the scratch sounds a good idea though so won't miss that next time (will have with my hysto). It's interesting you had intralipids even tho you have thyroid issues and still got your baby.

Thanks so much ladies for your help, support & ideas, I really appreciate it   xxx


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

By the way, does anyone know if progesterone at 30 on OTD is too low? I read that if you have elevated CD19 (I have slightly) it can interfere with absorption of progesterone & affect implantation/pregnancy? I was on 3 utrogestan pessaries per day but might think about injectable gestone next time? 

Thanks


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## Argybargy (Mar 18, 2015)

Hi Strawberry Sundae....Sorry to hear about your story..

I’ve had two mcs and two bfns .. all with own eggs. I am now pg with twins, early days, but have never got this far before.  

Changes for me, dh always had zero motility but all other tests were fine, however we went to dr Ramsey who did find high Ros, so was put on antibiotics. 

I should have had a hysterscopy after my second mc, because if I had it would have shown that I did have scar tissue and there was a big chance that was the reason the 3rd cycle failed. I had a hysterscopy before my fourth cycle.

Other things, pgs tested for the first time. Used menopur instead gonal f. Double trigger instead of one shot of ovitrelle. Boy was it painful!. Historically I have never got more than 2 embryos. First cycle only one low quality one and that was when I was at my youngest (obviously!). But with this cycle I got four and all four were normal.

Oh And a shot of pregnyl straight after transfer (never had that before either). So many variables as you said but I can’t help feeling one or all of these things made a difference in this cycle. So I hope this helps..

Good luck xx


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Thank you Argybargy   I'm very curious to see what the hysto will show! Even if it's nothing at least I'll have ticked it off! I wonder if I have scar tissue too. I nearly had one last year   Congratulations with your twins! It sounds like you checked a lot of things out, really worth doing. All the best xx


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## Laquinn (Sep 4, 2017)

Thanks Strawberry 

Have you had a full thyroid panel with antibodies done? I'd definitely get immunes done again. Here's a link about gluten and thyroid disease: https://chriskresser.com/the-gluten-thyroid-connection/


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## esj (Apr 9, 2014)

Hi *Strawberry Sundae*
Im so sorry to hear your news... I just had a BFN last week from my OE FET at Serum. Both pretty devastated. We only transferred 1 blastocyst but still had high hopes as it was AA and clinic said we had a good chance. Kind of wish 'Id done a scratch now too but we never know what the real cause is do we? I feel that was my last OE cycle being 45 now so the next step is DE if OH agrees. Did you stay with Serum for DE? Thats where we will go if it happens. 
I hope all the amazing advice on here helps you with the next round. Sending love and good luck to you 
XX


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

Laquinn yes had them done last year, antibodies around 400 I think (need to check!) Avoiding gluten is so difficult! Thanks for the link, very scary!   All this info is really useful thanks xx


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## StrawberrySundae (Jan 30, 2017)

ESJ thanks so much and   to you too, I'm so sorry about your bfn. Serum do produce high quality looking embryos, such a shame they don't do pgs testing, altho I'm familiar with the arguments for & against. No I didn't stay with Serum but will have a hysto with them as I've heard so many positive things about it, I want it doing thoroughly and my NHS consultant said I didn't need to bother having one! 

I know it's so hard to find the exact causes of things   I did Serum's 2 cycle package, twin mc the first time and then a bfn. They seem to have good DE results tho.

Take care and sending you lots of love & luck as well xx


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