# IVF-advance-triples-couples-chances-of-having-a-baby



## yogabunny

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10062631/IVF-advance-triples-couples-chances-of-having-a-baby.html


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## MandyPandy

Sounds really interesting - and at an extra cost of £750, is not massively bank breaking either.  Hmmmmm....  food for thought - and great advertising for CARE!


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## vickym1984

Looks very interesting. Dpn't read the comments unless you want to raise your blood pressure though x


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## Dudders

Hmm it's certainly interesting but what doesn't seem clear is how many couples would not even get to transfer because of this technique ......

It seems to imply that they have gone to blast anyway, which my clinic say is around a 70% clinical pregnancy rate (as to whether that is true who knows!) and I was also told at one stage that only around 20% of embryos usually make it to blast (although this does seem to typically be higher from what I can see).

So whilst I'm sure there is validity in this process, I think the figures aren't certain as I suspect they have quoted pregnancy rates for embryos transferred and not per cycle - although this is of course an assumption on my part.

The other question to be raised by this is the discarding of embryos because they are not at the right stage at the right time - we all know how emotional this journey is and it's not easy to view these bundles of cells in such a clinical fashion as the embryologists do.  There will be plenty of ladies on this site who probably wouldn't be/have been pregnant if this method was used as their 2 day 2 cell embie would probably have been discarded?

I'm sure this will be a great piece of technology for those that get to blast anyway and help to cherry pick the best embryo, but for others could mean spending thousands of pounds to go through the whole procedure only to fall at the last hurdle.

Having gone through a fresh cycle with no transfer (admittedly due to lining rather than embryo issues) and the consultant also recommended cancelling on our FET, it is a huge psychological blow to not even get your chance however small it is.

So basically what I'm waffling about is that this isn't going to change anything about the quality of the embryo itself, but help select the most likely to succeed, which if the clinic goes to blast is mostly being done already.  And just my personal opinion but this could hurt more couples than it helps because they would be told their embryos don't cut it so they go through all the injections, stress and ride the emotional rollercoaster for nothing.


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## MandyPandy

vickym1984 said:


> Looks very interesting. *Don't read the comments unless you want to raise your blood pressure though x *


LOL! I love reading the comments - always makes me feel so much better about myself.  There certainly are some brainless, mindless morons out there aren't there?


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## dillydolly

What is this technique? Is it embryoscope or eeva?

I think this could be an advertising ploy.....


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## eiluj68

It sounds like embryoscope, a facility that some Czech clinics have been using for at least 12 months (to my knowledge). If it* is  * this, it's usually only EUR400-500 extra.


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## dillydolly

If its embryoscope then they have been doing it ages! 

Publicity stunt... Apparently it was Manchester care that has done the research....I wonder if this is cos a certain celebrity has just become pregnant with a clinic in cyprus that I think is linked with liverpool womens... 

Lol...why am I so cynical.....


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## MandyPandy

dillydolly said:


> If its embryoscope then they have been doing it ages!
> 
> *Publicity stunt... * Apparently it was Manchester care that has done the research....I wonder if this is cos a certain celebrity has just become pregnant with a clinic in cyprus that I think is linked with liverpool womens...
> 
> Lol...why am I so cynical.....


I think it's a fairly transparent publicity stunt but hey, if it works then it works and other clinics will soon pick it up.  EDIT: LOL! ...and literally just as I typed this, CRM have posted a thread about it. 

I think you're right to be cynical.


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## ughhhh

Very interesting

The thing I don't understand is it assumes that women get to blast and have a selection of blasts to chose from. I don't see how success rates can be increased so dramatically in this case as it appear to me that the majority of women don't get to blast and those that do will mostly have one or two which get transferred. Maybe in 5-10% of tx would this help select the best blast... maybe I misunderstand?

Love waking up to a bit of IVF in the news though!!!!! Also love the conspiracy theories!


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## MandyPandy

ughhhh said:


> Very interesting
> 
> The thing I don't understand is it assumes that women get to blast and have a selection of blasts to chose from. I don't see how success rates can be increased so dramatically in this case as it appear to me that the majority of women don't get to blast and those that do will mostly have one or two which get transferred. Maybe in 5-10% of tx would this help select the best blast... maybe I misunderstand?
> 
> Love waking up to a bit of IVF in the news though!!!!! *Also love the conspiracy theories!*


Ooooh I've missed those! Where are they - what kind of conspiracy? I love a good one too.


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## yogabunny

Most stories are supplied by PRs now to media, so it probably is from a press release by CARE to promote themselves. The journalist has been a bit lazy then and not looked into this being offered elsewhere?! 
I'd never heard of this technique before...
I found it interesting for my situation... as from our 8 blasts, 2 so far have not survived the thaw, these were graded highest, and 1 ended in miscarriage which they say one off poor embryo most likely cause, I found that hard to understand, I have been searching for reasons like blood clotting, immunes etc, but this makes me think that there are other ways to "grade" an embryo which I was not aware of that could be the reason.....
---although of course it could just be the freezing I guess..

i haven't dared to look at the comments!


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## yogabunny

Also saw this post on FF from CRM London



CRMLondon said:


> Hi all,
> 
> There has been a lot of news today in regards to IVF time-lapse imaging and how this may increase success rates of IVF treatment. I wanted to write something so you all knew what this was about.
> 
> There is a lot more information on our website but the basics are that time-lapse embryo imaging is a relatively new technology available to fertility clinics to help improve the success rate of IVF fertility treatments.
> 
> Time-lapse technology uses cameras to monitor the development of embryos as they grow within incubators. As such every 5 minutes a snapshot is taken of the growing embryo. Thousands of individual images are then stitched together to compose one video of the entire development of the embryo.
> 
> Embryologists can study the time-lapse images checking the developmental patterns and looking for any delays which may indicate problems have arisen within the embryo. Using the information embryos which have a greater viability may be selected during the IVF treatment for transfer back into the body.
> 
> This offers tremendous advantages over traditional IVF treatment during which embryologists only review the embryos once or at most twice a day. Early pregnancy data has shown that time-lapse imaging when use in combination with an IVF cycle can certainly help to improve the selection of embryos and as such increase the pregnancy success rate.
> 
> The latest work published on IVF time-lapse imaging has indicated that using this technology can be used to select embryos which may be selected which have a lower risk of aneuploidy, a condition in which cells have either extra or missing chromosomes.
> 
> The time-lapse monitoring of embryos also means the embryos do not need to be removed from the incubator for analysis. As such the embryos are not exposed to environmental changes such as temperature fluctuations, exposure to light and changing pH which occurs when embryos are routinely checked using traditional methods.
> 
> CRM London uses a time-lapse monitoring system known as EEVA, which is available to all patients undergoing IVF treatment. More information on EEVA and the benefits of time-lapse can be found at http://www.ivfcliniclondon.com/en/treatments/eeva.html
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Rob Smith
> Senior Embryologist


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## ellesters

On doing some digging around it seems they are talking about time-lapse imaging (TLI) with morphokinetic analysis. A bit more about the study here: http://trishaporles.typepad.com/blog/2013/05/breakthrough-for-ivf.html

Perhaps similar to Embryoscope? But I think embryoscope uses video and this is time lapse - no idea what difference that makes though!


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## ellesters

Ah - just found the abstract - yes it is using Embryoscope!

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1472648313000709


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## Mr &amp; Mrs Bubble

It is used from day 0 to a max of 5/6 so is still usefull for ladies having 3dt.

Dudders:
I don't think if your embryos are all slower they would bar you from using them but if you had more to choose from the viable to use in anyone cycle it could help pinpoint your best chance. 

For what it's worth I'm using it this cycle and am satisfied to know if nothing else it's another thing I've tried that could help me be a step (albeit very small part of the bigger picture) towards being a family


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## MandyPandy

yogabunny said:


> Most stories are supplied by PRs now to media, so it probably is from a press release by CARE to promote themselves.


Exactly why I can't see a conspiracy - it's fairly blatant advertising. 

...as for the comments, they're the generic 'if you can't have children naturally you shouldn't have them...' and 'the world is already over populated...', etc. The latter always makes me laugh as I can't help but wonder if these morons just tootled off, it would drastically reduce the population and allow us to carry on minding our own business.


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## yogabunny

....mandypandy, re morons.... so true


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## Dudders

Good luck Bubbletastic - you're happy with it and that's the important thing.

What I was trying to get at is the increased pregnancy rate appears to have been based on blastocyst transfers which probably wouldn't have been that far off the 78% quoted in the first place.  It's the implication that using this is going to suddenly treble your chance of pregnancy which simply isn't true that gets my goat.

There's nothing wrong with trying something new at all, it just has to be remembered that this information is only based on 69 couples and we don't know the circumstances surrounding their need for IVF.  In limited trials like this the stats always need to be treated with caution.


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## Snowy81

Have only read the first 5 comments on the article and already fuming.......  would have expected such comments from tabloid press readers but shocked that 4 out of 5 from the telegraph have written such comments.  These people clearly live isolated lives with no knowledge of the pain of infertility and preceding life events which have lead to infertility.     

Sorry rant over!  Be it publicity or not, I think the world of science is amazing.

xxx


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## Snowy81

Sorry, already back with another rant as I get further down the comments......  

Bet all these people saying let nature be happily pop pills when they are feeling ill (yes pills created my medical advances), have a blood transfusion if they had a serious accident, take a stay in hospital (at the cost of the NHS) if needed, oh I could go on and on.......


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## Lil Elvis

I'm used to negative comments posted online in response to articles concerning IVF but I'm very disappointed to read similarly negative (though different) comments on here. Yes CARE do have a PR manager - a lovely lady called Wanda - and her job is to promote their clinics, the work they do and the research they are undertaking. However, much of her work also involves raising awareness of infertility and the treatments available. When the NICE guidelines on assisted conception were published a few months ago she asked me if I would be willing to be interviewed by the BBC. Various versions of the interview were aired throughout the day and I also did 3 radio interviews. There was no mention of CARE in any of them. Personally I am pleased whenever I read news of new advances in treatments. Yes, many of us pay for treatment but we still need the clinics to undertake research and invest in this area. 

Caroline


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## SWGirl

This embryoscope method has also been available at the North West Fertility Clinic at Liverpool Women's Hospital for at least 12 months.  I think the additional fee there was also around £700.  It would be good to see Liverpool's statistics when using this compared to the standard method for selecting blastocysts for transfer.  Perhaps the HFEA needs to clearly list the statistics for embryoscope treatment in their clinic details.


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## Mr &amp; Mrs Bubble

Lil Elvis - i have to say I'm with you on this one Care have been nothing short of amazing to me on my journey and people perhaps need to remember whilst yes it is good publicity that both current/ previous and founding members of the CARE network alongside other leading Consultants based across the UK in other high profile clinics have been at the centre of a fair few of the original developments that made IVF/ICSI possible. The staff genuinely make the effort to 'get to know their patients' and genuinely care about the outcome. If Care have played a part in UK development good on them for advertising that!!

Lol gives me a rest from being their personal cheerleading team    

I agree more statistical testing and clear parameters about how they measure the success would be good and I'm sure will be availiable in future, but to be fair the article itself says futher testing is needed.


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## dillydolly

Lil Elvis 

My comments weren't meant to offend I just don't see why embryoscope is being described as the latest technique and makes it on to the news when it really isn't that new. I want to hear about the latest techniques not about techniques that are already being used. I am a patient of care but I actually feel that they are not keeping as up to date as they could. I asked about endometrial scratches and was asked told it wasn't something care did as there was no evidence. Surely if they want to be upto date they should be initiating the trials.  A few months later I find out some of the care clinics are doing trials! 

Clinics have patients who are wiling to give anything a go to get pregnant...a captive audience...I wish they would use more of us in trials!


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## MandyPandy

Could someone please point me in the direction of negative comments towards CARE?

All I see are people, myself included, stating that it is advertising for CARE, which it is.  How is that negative?  It is simply a statement of fact.  If it wasn't advertising, the name of the clinic and its staff would not be in the article.


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## SWGirl

A little odd that disabled children are being grouped with the unviable embryos.  I always thought that unviable embryos meant embryos that would not result in a live birth.  The statement seems to me to slightly suggest that the use of the embryoscope can help to prevent births of children with certain syndromes in the way that PGD does but the information I saw at Liverpool did not suggest this, it seemed to just suggest that the embryoscope would help find the embryos that were developing in the most regular/stable/ way over time.


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## SWGirl

Re the comments below the article:  'Well said 'MrChris'.  I couldn't have put it better.'


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## Snowy81

Only just seen MrChris comments - well said, exactly what I would have said but put so much better than I could.


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## dillydolly

I'm not going to read any more of the comments on the telegraph website as they are obviously made by people who have no experience of infertility

I much prefer to come on here and read all our comments about our treatments, our journeys and what research we have done to improve out chances of success!


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## njr_26

Prague Fertility Centre have been using this technique for two years now.


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## Dollynrosie

Hello

What about those ladies that have had what the embryologists deemed very poor quality embryos, due to slow growing, lack of cells and fragmentation, but have still gone ahead with the transfer anyway and they have ended up as very healthy babies?  

There are ladies including myself that have had in the labs opinion "Perfect Textbook Embryos" put back, only for the cycle to fail with no good reason.

Is this procedure able to pinpoint those little dark horse embryos that in normal IVF look very poor to the Embryologist, but actually have the potential to become a healthy little bundle and vice versa, ie the perfect looking ones that actually arent that perfect and wont make it?  If so, I think thats excellent.  Or does it just enhance what the embryologist already sees ie a graded 5AA blastocyst and then cherry pick the best of those?  If thats the case and they discard the poorer looking ones, then surely they are discarding potential babies and giving no hope to those ladies that dont produce "perfect embryos".

There are tons of success stories from people that have had poor quality embryos and one of the nurses actually said to me on my first cycle that people have what on paper looks like a perfect embryo and it doesnt work, but there are other embryos that from a medical point of view are very poor and highly unlikely to become a viable pregnancy and end up being the one that becomes your son or daughter.

I know the above probably sounds like i have a negative point of view about it, but like i said, if its able to pick up on those embryos that look poorer quality in standard IVF and spot the potential in them, then I do believe its a real breakthrough, but if its just about picking the best of the already "perfect", then I think it could lead to a lot of heartache, thats just my opinion anyway xxxx


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## yogabunny

dollynrosie - like you, i read it to be another way of "grading" embies or finding the best ones, as like you 5AA and 4AA has not meant success, perhaps they were not the best ones of our batch ...and what I read on FF the grading seems not to always mean success, in fact going to blast doesn't always seem to be what is needed... I see this as another way to find the best embies, perhaps from our amazing batch of 14 fertilised eggs, for example some of those that did not make blast could have been perfect bubbas. 

Interesting what other ladies are saying that this technique is used already, yet the media are talking about it as new, perhaps it is the fact that CARE have done a research test/study that is new. I wasn't aware of this technique so very helpful for me that it gets media coverage. 

xxx


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## njr_26

Prague Fertilitiy Centre do day 3 transfers using this technique as they say there is no need to go to blast when they have been monitoring enmbryos as they can see which ones have had abnormal development. Some video clips of how this happens. 




It worked for me.

Njr26


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## yogabunny

thank njr, really interesting x


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## dolphin17

CRGH have also been offering this technique for a couple of years now - we didn't have it done but I know another lovely FFer who was given the option back in 2011 x


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## vickster_77

I think this is more a case of the media dramatising a 'new' technique' but without highlighting key facts yet again! 

As the resident embryologist posted on the 2nd page of this thread - CARE wasn't claiming that the embryoscope was new technology but that they had used their embryoscope to look for embryo's with a lower risk of aneuploidy, a condition in which cells have either extra or missing chromosomes, as an alternative to current methods of PGD testing. With current methods they have to take a cell out of the embryo to do this and obviously puts the embryo at a risk of arresting. They were claiming they could use the time-lapse imaging to predict this instead and were quite successful within the small numbers they had looked at.

So it was a key scientific study CARE wanted to promote but the media generalise to apply to all IVF cycles!!!


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## agate

the headline is very misleading.

The study only shows is that embryos that look beautiful and divide at the right times (captured by embryoscope) are a lot more likely to give a pregnancy.

Using embryoscope has not been shown to change the pregnancy rate significantly so far.

really lovely embryos give a great pregnancy rate, but for embryoscope to actually *improve* a couple's chance of pregnancy per cycle, they've already got to be in the lucky position (due to good quality eggs and sperm, a good stimulation and good embryology) of being able to make several lovely looking embryos so that embryoscope can help you choose the best from an already good batch.

most IVFs are done for women who are older than 35 and, regardless of whether they use embryoscope or not, just don't generate so many gorgeous looking embryos to be in the position where they could expect embryoscope to make much difference to them. If you get to day 2 and show only 1 or 2 nice looking 4 cell embies, day 3 and have only 1 or 2 nice looking 8 cells embies, or day 5 and only have 2 ok looking blasts (that have been through a normal development pathway) there isn't anything extra that embryoscope is going to give you because you've still only got 1 or 2 possible embies to transfer.

so to claim that the technique triples the pregnancy rate is untrue.


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## dizzy_blonde_2

Hi all

It's really interesting reading everyone's view of this, as we've just had a consult at Care Nottingham and their people just dont advocate that it will triple our chances!! Press sensationalising again!!!!!

We were given a possible 15% increase in success, but they were quick to stress that it needs a much bigger trial over here before anything can really be determined.  

As we're having DE IVF, and we've got one shot at this,  we've decided that the £750 they charge for Embryoscope is worth paying. It may make a difference, it may not, but we're willing to go with anything that can increase our chances.

I don't claim to understand all the science bit, but to me it makes sense not to disturb them.  All nice and warm in your incubator, I wouldn't take kindly to being moved!!!


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## littlewhisper

Hi everyone, 
GCRM in Glasgow has had the Eeva technology for nearly a year now ( which made me think it was strange the media were saying it was brand new) they were one of the first to get it. They gave very balanced advice about it saying that basically it can help you choose the 'predicted' best out of a batch of embryos as it can tell which egg's cells divided within the Time parameters that signal normal chromosomes/ good quality. They say an embryologist can only look at an egg and 'although it looks good doesn't mean it is good' this is where Eeva _Can_ help. But what no media press release has said yet is that it's only approx 80% accurate ( that's what GCRM said) so its probably only useful if you have a good number of eggs ( they don't have to be 5 AA grade blasts - it can help at even 2 day transfers)

We were going to use it but only one of my eggs fertilised so there was no point we had to just go with that one. 
I would use it next time if I got more eggs fertilised but it doesn't affect pregnancy rates significantly especially if there are other issues.

LW x


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## Lisa x-x-x

Hi there

Has anyone here had this time lapse imaging? we are seeing our consultant at Care on Monday and we are going to ask about having this, i start my treatment on the 18th of this month.

Lisa xx


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## NicL

Hi there we used it. On 2ww at the moment so can't tell yet if it has helped. We did have some only behaving embies tho and it did identify things like one of them had a double nuclei. They can use it o see when certain things happen and that means more likely to implant. I had a lower grade embies put back on the basis of this. Its quite cool as you get a video of your embies but its expensive if that is the only benefit! I think the research backs it up though. We were advised to use cos of my age - 35.

Oh i am at care  Manchester. X


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## Lisa x-x-x

Hi Nic

Thanks for that and keeping everything crossed for you..hope the 2ww doesn't drag.

We are at care Notts/Boston...went in today for protocol ect... And we have asked them to book us in for the time lapse imaging too  

Take care Hun xx


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## NicL

Great. I think its worth it to be honest. There are chats about it on the northwest board for care ladies . Obviously not checked out the notts board but might be worth it x


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## Weebear

It's also being carried out in Glasgow where they have the Eeva technique that was developed at Stanford in the US.


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## Hate the wait

Sorry to butt into this conversation but do you know which clinic in Glasgow is using this?


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## littlewhisper

Hi there GCRM private clinic in Glasgow has been using it for about a year xx


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## jimmysrabbit

My clinic (CRGW) has been using this technique for a while. The nurse said that it was most useful for younger ladies who had lots and lots of eggs to choose from, but less helpful for older birds like me (3   who produce less eggs.


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## Sexki11en

I'd like to advocate Embryoscope.  

This is our third cycle (second full) and I am a poor responder.  We asked about it at CRGW and were told we could make the decision once we knew how many eggs we had. 

We ended up with 5 eggs and at first look only 3 fertilised.  There was a 4th one that through embryoscope, they could see it was still trying to fert so they left it to keep an eye on.  Without embryoscope, this egg would hasve been discarded under normal procedure. 

That late developer is one of the 2 almost perfect embies that I had put back.  One 10 cell and one 6 cell.  We still had 2 7 cells but they'd been misbehaving.  One was quite fragmented and the other had divided into 7 cells then gone back to 6, then back to 7!  Sadly we got the call today that one didn't make it past cleaving stage and the other was an early blast but grade C not suitable for freezing.  The positive from this is that if that less than perfect embie got to early blast then all the signs are that the 2 put back are doing as well now.  

For me, regardless of whether this works or not (currently 2dp3dt) the £500 was so worth it for us or that almost perfect embie could have been discarded. 

SK x


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## bumbling

Another vote for the Embryoscope here. We had two blasts transferred yesterday - there was one clear favourite and then two the embryologist couldn't decide between. The Embryoscope revealed that one had had abnormal development at the 2-4 cell stage (and therefore a much lower chance of implantation) while the other had developed completely normally - decision made, although we've yet to see how it turns out.

(Our clinic also gave us a video of the development of the embryos used in transfer - completely fascinating!)

Good luck to all.


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## littlewhisper

I'm also glad we used it. We had three embies transferred yesterday. Out of 7 eggs,  4  had fertilised. Two 8 cells , one 7 cell and a 6 cell. The 6,7 and one 8 cell came through the embryoscope as high predictors and the other 8 cell came through as a low predictor! The embryologist said that without the embryoscope they ould have discarded to 6 cell and put pack the other low predictor 8 cell.

Now just     that one at least sticks 

We also got a USB with images of our dividing cells

All the best what ever you decide xx


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## Sexki11en

Even bigger thumbs up here now - We've been testing positive since 7dp3dt.  Cautious but over the moon. 

SK x


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