# Sticky  LGBT Legal issues inc. Lesbian couples named on birth Certificates



## NatGamble

There is loads of useful information on the website of my new firm, Natalie Gamble Associates, at www.nataliegambleassociates.com. There is a whole section just for lesbian couples at www.nataliegambleassociates.com/page/Lesbian-couples/4/. Happy reading!

My new contact details are [email protected] and 0844 357 1603


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## pem

Hi there,

Don't know if I am posting in the right place here, just wanted to ask you a quick question if thats ok??

Baby is due on 21st May, we used a known donor and are still regularly in touch with him and our plans are that he will be known as 'dad' and will see lo on a regular basis. However we plan to have DP apply for parental responsibility and to adopt LO as soon as this is possible, this has all been agreed and discussed with P (our donor). My question is, will having P's name on her birth certificate as her father affect us when it comes to the adoption procedure? P is ready and willing to sign any forms etc he has to. I do really want to have P's name on her birth cert as he is her dad but i absolutely do not want to jeopardise DP's chance of adopting her.

Thanks, hope this all makes sense,

Emma


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## snagglepat

Hi Emma,

I'm sure Nat will have more to say on this but this week we went in to the adoption services place in Birmingham to start the ball rolling with Rae's adoption of Ember. We asked about how having a known donor would affect things and they said that things should be pretty easy for us as our donors name isn't on the birth certificate and we have a contract with him stating he agrees to the adoption. They may not even need to speak to him about it. The social worked we spoke to indicated that things get a lot more complex in cases where the father/donor is on the birth certificate.

From the literature they sent us initially it seems that (in Birmingham at least) they try to discourage step-parent adoption if the child has a meaningful relationship with the biological father (or mother in those cases where its that way round) because once the adoption has gone through that parent has permanently and absolutely lost any legal parental role. For us, this isn't a problem as the contact we have with the donor isn't enough to be considered 'meaningful' but it sounds as though this won't be the case for you. From what I can tell, as long as your donor is OK with losing his legal status as a parent then it should be all right, but he and possibly his family if they're also going to have contact with the child will need to be interviewed and give consent to it going ahead. Bear in mind that you won't be able to start the adoption process until your child is at least 3, maybe 6 months old by which time he'll have had a chance to really develop a relationship with her and you end up back at that big trust place that we known donor users know so well.

Even though we're not having much contact with our donor we, like you, also wanted some form of documentation for Ember regarding her origins and we've worked out she'll have one piece of paper for each person involved in her creation and upbringing: the donor contract for the donor, the birth certificate for me and the adoption certificate for Rae. 

I hope this helps. Good luck with it!

Gina. x


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## pem

Thanks for this Gina, these are my worries/concerns exactly, it is a fine line we tread isn't it?? Betwen what is right for our little ones and what is right for us, I guess that is what parenting is alll abouy anyway. I think I am going to have another long chat with P and go forward from there. If i can ask you, what did you put on the birth cert Do you just put unknown

Your documents arrangement is fab and I might go with that myself....

I hope your adoption process runs smoothly, glad you are all doing well, I have bl**dy heartburn again!!

Emma x


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## nickster

Hi Emma

If you decided not to put your donor on the birth certificate (which I guess is the best way of ensuring that your DP shouldn't have problems adopting), he could still be given parental responsibility. So although he wouldn't be your child's 'legal parent' he'd still have a recognised role in her upbringing... and a piece of paper with his name on!

Just a thought...

Nickyx


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## snagglepat

Hi Emma,

Sorry to hear abut the heartburn. I remember it well...

We had no choice to put anything on the birth certificate. If you're not married to the father then the only way he can get on the birth certificate is to attend with you when you register the birth. If he isn't with you, the father section is just left blank.

I don't know if you already have a contract with your donor but if you don't you could write one that states he won't object to any adoption and he understands the legal implications of that but he will have regular contact.

Good luck with it!

Gina. x


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## pem

Thanks Gina,

We do have a contract!! Thanks for that advice re the birth cert, that makes things a lot easier, I would feel really uncomfortable and look really shifty having to discuss the issue with a very scary looking registrar!!

Nickster, thanks for that, he actually doesn't want PR, just to see her, give her cuddles and teach her how to play football!!! 

Emma X


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## NatGamble

Hiya lovely ladies

The issue with known donors and adoption is rather untested at the moment - we're waiting for cases to go through around the UK to confirm how the courts will deal with it.  However, the best current advice is as follows:

- If the donor is named on the birth certificate (and as Gina says he has to attend the registration for you to do that) then he will have parental responsibility which means that he has to consent to any adoption process.  Though the court has the power to override his refusal to consent if they want to, it is unlikely if the father wants active involvement they will do that.  They are far more likely to give the non-birth mother parental responsibility, but to refuse an adoption order and say that it is in the child's best interests to retain a legal father.

- If the donor is not named on the birth certificate, he has no PR which means no formal say in the process.  BUT the court is still likely to want to hear from him in some way since an adoption order will take away his rights entirely, and that would prevent him applying for parental responsibility in the future.  The court will want to know that he does not intend to do this (either through an interview or through a donor agreement if you have one).

Ultimately, every situation involving a known donor is unique and the court must act in the child's best interests which creates an enormous degree of discretion.  

If you want to secure an adoption to give non-birth mum full rights as a parent I always advise signing a donor agreement (so you have the donor's written consent to the adoption in advance) and not naming the donor on the birth certificate.  That doesn't mean that you can't tell your child who the father is, or that you can't give the father any access (though minimising this until the adoption order is granted is probably advisable).

I hope that helps.

Natalie


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## lucky2010

Hi,

I wonder if you can help Nat? Our son is now 4 and a half months old and my partner has been granted parental responsibility. We were wondering what additional parental rights she would have if she adopted him? (We will more than likely be having another child, with me as the bio-mum again, and would intend for Julie to adopt them both together if we did decide to do this.)

thanks in advance,

Rach


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## NatGamble

A question I am often asked!

Parental responsibility gives Julie day-to-day authority to act as a parent until your son is 18 - so she can talk to schools and doctors etc.  It is a statement of the current position, which means it can be taken away by the court if circumstances change (e.g. if you split up).  In contrast adoption is permanent, and makes Julie your son's mother for the rest of his life.

In practical terms, the fact that your son is not legally Julie's adopted child could be important in various ways (and this list is not exhaustive).  If you just have parental responsibility, he has no right of inheritance from her if you both die (unless he is very carefully benefited in Julie's will).  He would not benefit from things like pension schemes, family trusts, grandparents' wills etc which pay out to Julie's 'children'.  Adoption is also better recognised around the world if you ever choose to live or travel abroad.  

Ultimately with adoption, you get an absolute guarantee that Julie would have all the same recognition as you do as your son's mother.  Parental responsibility gives her most of the day to day authority she needs, but it ultimate does not make her your son's mother.

I hope that clarifies.  It sounds sensible to wait until no.2 arrives and then adopt both together (that's what we did!).  If you'd like pointing in the right direction with the adoption process, I run a fixed fee pre-adoption consultation at which I explain what you need to do and help you fill in all the paperwork.  Good luck!

Natalie


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## pem

Nat, thanks for all your advice about these issues, I am in a bit of a faff now as we want DP to be the legal mother for all the above reasons but also recognise that we want LO to have contact with her dad, it is hard to do what you feel is best for LO. We will have to cross all these bridges as we come to them.

thanks for your help

Emma


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## NatGamble

I have sympathy - co-parenting situations just really don't fit into the law at all.  It seems everything is set up for having two parents and the concept of having three (or even four) is just impossible for our legal system.


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## nickster

Tell me about it...!


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## TerriWW

I hope you don't mind me joining but me and my partner are just trying to sort the legal parent issues out too.

2 friends of ours have given us advice but having read this thread, I'm not sure it's correct. They have the following:
1. a civil partnership
2. the non biological mother has the parental responsibility order
3. They have wills. The biological mother's will states that if her civil partner is not living then X should be guardian of her children.

They seem to think that the civil partnership and parental responsiblity order mean that should the bilogical mother die, the non bioi mother would automatically be guardian and that's why the will is worded as it is - it implies that if the biological mother civil partner (the non bio mum) is alive then she will be guardian anyway.

We were going to have the same done but now I'm not sure it covers what we need.

The most important thing to us is that if anything should happen to me (biological mum), our son and any future children would definitely stay with my partner.

Does anyone know if adoption is the only way of guaranteeing this of if a combination of civil partnership, parental responsibility order and will can cover it.

Thanks for any info

Terri


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## NatGamble

Hi Terri - and welcome to the thread

The advice you have is roughly right, but hopefully this clarifies.  For the best protection you need to do three things:

1.  Make wills as soon as you are pregnant (or before) - an appropriately worded guardianship clause will confer parental responsibility on the non birth mother if the birth mother dies.  This is the only way of guaranteeing this before the birth (so protects against a death in childbirth or shortly after - hopefully unlikely!).

2.  Get parental responsibility once your baby is born.  This gives the non birth mother the right to act as a parent (talk to doctors, teachers etc) assuming the birth mum is still alive  (the guardianship appointment in the will doesn't do this because it only kicks in if she has died).  

3.  Adopt.  This gives the non birth mum full legal parenthood and you can apply once your baby is six months old.  It means she will be regarded as mother for all legal purposes (including inheritance) for the whole of your child's life, and not just until they are 18.

Each piece of the puzzle achieves something slightly different, elevating non birth mum's status increasingly as you go.  Doing your wills alone is sufficient to protect her right to look after your child if birth mum dies, but it doesn't give her status as a parent assuming you are both still alive, which is what the other two steps are designed to do.

If you want to arrange a proper consultation and I can help you get all this sorted, just let me know.

Best wishes.

Natalie


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## TerriWW

Nat

Thank you for that reply. I really like it when someone answers a question so fully, logically and succinctly - brilliant. I feel I'm fully informed now. I just need to speak to my partner to see when we do each stage. I think we need to get a civil partnership before we do the wills so that we dont have to make any amendments to the wills after. And then the wills should fulfull our immediate needs and we can look into the parental responsiblility order and adoption at a later date.

Thanks again. I'll be in touch if we need help with the wills

Terri


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## NatGamble

No problem at all.  You can do your wills before registering if you want to - they won't be revoked as long as they have a special clause in them saying they are made in 'contemplation of' registering as civil partners.


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## motos

While we're on the subject ....

Can you tell me how different the situation is in Scotland? 

Also (as I'm sure that it is different, and I really need to be making a will - and should probably provide for the fact that we are planning to get pregnant in it) can you recommend anyone in Glasgow? I have found one private client lawyer in Edinburgh (Donald Reid) which I guess is doable if we can't find someone closer, but I can't believe there isn't anyone closer ...

Thanks for any tips!


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## NatGamble

Hi Motos

The situation's very different in Scotland (both with the wills and with adoption - new Scottish adoption laws are due to come into force later this year, and will allow same sex adoption for the first time).

I have a great contact in Edinburgh with experience helping same sex couples and a very welcoming approach.  If you email me, I'll give you her contact details if you like.  I'm afraid I don't know anyone in Glasgow.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## motos

Thanks for thatNat, I've dropped you an email.


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## TerriWW

Natalie

I heard you on radio 5 this morning and overheard something I didn't know and that is really good news for our family. Our son was conceived in 2004 (born 05) and so had an anonymous donor. I always wanted a traceable one but back then they didn't allow that in the UK and I couldn't afford to go abroad. Second to that, if we eventually manage to conceive a second child then that child will be able to trace his/her donor (we have no sibling sperm). This has always bothered me - although it is out of my control. But then this morning I heard that Angus WILL be able to trace any half siblings conceived by his donor if he wants. That is such good news to me and my partner and I can't believe I never thought to ask that. And it at leasts gives angus something if he is curious.

So thanks for that and I just wanted to post this as I suspect there might be other people out there in who have used anonymous donors and didn't know this fact.

Terri


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## NatGamble

Hi Terri

Yes the new right to contact donor siblings is elsewhere in the Bill, and it will affect all children conceived since 1991 (when the HFEA register began).  Like you, I'm pleased for my kids who won't ever be able to find out who the donor was.

As this doesn't seem to be being contested by anyone, it's pretty sure to go through.


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## nismat

So does this mean that *all* children conceived using anonymous donors between 1991 and the law change in April 2005 will be able to access info on the donor (once they reach 1, even if the donor hadn't given consent to be traceable?

I can see that this is good for the children, but it's a massive change of circumstance for the donors if this is the case!


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## NatGamble

No only children conceived after 2005 will be able to find out about the donor.  But all children conceived since 1991 will be able to get in touch with genetic siblings (and that only includes other donor-conceived children, not the donor's own children).


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## rosypie

That's a really good piece of news. I'd heard something or other about it but hadn't quite believed it was what I thought it was.

I wonder, if a half-sib 'finds' J or B, will contact come through HFEA (or other body) direct to them? If so, will this end the debate about 'telling/not telling the children about the donor'? I guess there are children born within the period who will be 18 pretty soon and could trace half-sibs almost as soon as the change is implemented. It's an interesting thought that some of those might not even know yet that they were donor conceived...


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## SANFRAN06

Hi nat,
We have read your advice which all makes sense but to clarify.....
we are pregnant via clinic with unknown donor sperm. We want my partner to have PR from birth incase of medical problems with our babies. We would also like her to adopt at 6 months. Any guidance for this and ideas of cost
Thanks
K+J


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## NatGamble

Hi Rosypie - It won't quite work like that as it's just a facility for putting half-sibs who want to contact each other if they both consent and are over 18.  So donor-conceived children won't suddenly get contacted by the HFEA out of the blue.  They will have to ask if any of their siblings want contact, and if so, details will be swapped.

Hi K+J - If you are civil partners you can sign a PR agreement once the birth is registered and that's absolutely free.  The court fee for adoption is £140 per child (so don't have triplets!).  You don't need a solicitor to represent you in court if you have an anonymous donor (despite what some would tell you!) and you can run the application yourselves.  However, you might find it useful to sit down with a solicitor just to run through the process, help you fill in the forms etc before you start (I can do that for you if you like).  The only cases I've seen go off-track have been because social services/ the courts have got themselves in a muddle over the type of application being made, so being absolutely clear about the legal basis of your application can be helpful and ensure everything goes through without a hitch.


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## rosypie

NatGamble said:


> Hi Rosypie - It won't quite work like that as it's just a facility for putting half-sibs who want to contact each other if they both consent and are over 18. So donor-conceived children won't suddenly get contacted by the HFEA out of the blue. They will have to ask if any of their siblings want contact, and if so, details will be swapped.


So they can only trace half-sibs who have also registered? And you've got to know about it to register and get up off your backside to register? How potentially disappointing...


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## NatGamble

Each sperm donor can give to 10 families, and some of those will have several children, so the chances of at least a few of them wanting to find their siblings are pretty high I reckon.  The same won't be the case for children of egg donors, where there are likely to be far fewer siblings out there.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this in practice when we get that far.


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## rosypie

I just wonder how many people are going to know about it to do it at all... it's only because of reading boards like this that I (and eventually my children) know this even exists. I could just have easily missed it.

Whatever happens, it will be interesting to see.


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## SANFRAN06

Hi Nat
We are trying to understand the new **** bill that is currently going through paliament. If we enter a civil partnership before our children are born will this be recognised retrospectively once the bill is passed? We would obviously then rush to have a civil partnership in the next few weeks if it means in the near future my partner could be a legal parent without the need for adoption. We plan on having a civil partnership anyway but was going to wait until babies born and I can celebrate properly!!!!!!
thanks
K and J


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## NatGamble

Sadly no - the new rules won't be retrospective so don't rush your CP.  They'll only apply to children conceived after the Bill is in force, which is likely to be sometime late 2009 so a way off yet.  They won't help you this time around, but may do if you have any siblings.  Give me a shout if you would like my help with sorting out PR and adoption.

At least it means you can enjoy your CP more by not doing it when pregnant!

Natalie


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## SANFRAN06

Thanks Nat,
Thats really helpful. Is it not alot simpler to get PR at birth if we have had a civil partnership or is reasonably straight forward anyway? Also slightly concerned about if anything goes wrong at birth. Would my partner have more rights if we had a CP?
Sorry o go on, just v confusing stuff.
Many thanks
K


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## nismat

K, Nat will reply with the definitive answer, but it is simpler to get PR after your babies are born if you're CPed. I don't think that it's that complicated if you're not, but it should definitely be a "no questions asked" affair if you are. Not everywhere knows the process though  
We got CPed a month before Toby was born, partly because we'd been intending to get on and do it for some time, but primarily so that Karen could easily get PR. Obviously I was heavily pregnant at the time, so we had a very quiet do with just family and a couple of friends, going out for a lovely lunch after (and I allowed myself some luscious dessert wine as a treat!). Our intention was to have a party later in the summer, to celebrate our CP, Toby's birth, and the PR, plus possibly a naming ceremony. We've yet to do any of that! Must get organised


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## Mable

Us too Tamsin. We've now shelved it until we manage to   conceive a sibling and do it all together with a naming ceremony. What are the chances of that though! I recon we'll be just too tired again.


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## SANFRAN06

Thanks Tamsin and Mable for your speedy replies! Obviously time is of the essence now. Goodness only knows why we have left it till now to organise. You can imagine the sIze of me now, let alone a few weeks time when we would do the CP!!
We think we should go ahead just with our 2 best friends then celebrate next summer with our boys and a naming ceremony at the same time. 
Trouble is not sure where to start? will do some internet searching now.
thanks again, we will keep you informed
k and j x


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## leoaimee

Hi

I was wondering if anyone knows whether you need to be resident in the UK to have civil partnership there?

My partner and I (both British) don't live in the UK.  We are 'residents' in Gibraltar which has a similar legal system to the UK but also has some very archaic laws and currently doesn't recognise any same sex relationship.  I think because we live here we are a bit stuck legally in terms of securing any legal responsibility and rights for my partner.  

We would really love the possibility for Gaby to adopt our future children but unless we move back to the UK i don't think that would be possible.

Aimee


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## holly123

Hi Natgamble,

I wondered if you could help. Me & my partner had our son 10 weeks ago. We would like to start the legal stuff a.s.a.p. and would like some advice on the best way to go about it. Where are you based and how can we make an appointment? how do your fees work?


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## NatGamble

Ok a few people to answer so here goes:

@SANFRAN06 - If you are civil partners, you can get PR by signing a form (dead easy and free).  If you are not civil partners, the only way of getting PR is to apply to a court for a residence order (which means going before a judge etc).  You can adopt, once your baby is six months, whether you are civil partners or not, so I tend to advise non-civil partnered clients to skip the residence order and just go for adoption.  The only thing you can do to secure the non-birth mum's position before the birth is to update your wills - if birth mum appoints her as legal guardian in her will, then she will automatically get PR if birth mum dies.

@AimeeGaby - I believe you only have to be resident in the UK for 7 days to register a CP - so you could do it (allowing for notice period etc) over a couple of weeks holiday.  Some British embassies abroad also allow Brits resident in the country in question to register a CP in the embassy - so check with yours.  Either way though, it might not give you many rights in Gibraltar if they don't recognise same sex partnerships, but at least it would if you came home.

@Holly123 - Just email me at [email protected] and we'll set it up.  I'm physically based in Bournemouth but I act for clients all over the UK so can do things over the phone etc if it's too far for you to travel.  I work on a fixed fee basis wherever I can and I'll email you my fee list.

Natalie


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## SANFRAN06

Hi Nat
Thanks so much for your reply!
We have decided to have a CP before the boys are born. Giving notice in 2 weeks. We will celebrate properly with all our family and friends next year. Just need the boys to hang on in there!!
Thanks so much for all your advice, it relly has been appreciated.
Maybe chat again in near future,
K and J x


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## NatGamble

Sounds like a good plan.  Actually, we did the same and it was lovely.  We registered our CP the day the new law came in in December (with just our immediate family) and then had our wedding outdoors the following summer.  It was great because we made our wedding ceremony really personal - no script to follow so we said what we really meant.  And both days felt really special.


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## leoaimee

thanks natgamble 

that is really helpfull.  we could register over a couple of holiday trips back to the uk.

aimeex


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## SANFRAN06

Hi
Just to say we have our CP booked for the 10th July so the boys need to hang on in there!!!
Bought our outfits and rings and getting our heads around it. Cant wait now and looking forward to it.
Thanks Nat for all your help
Kerry and Jen


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## NatGamble

Hoorah - congratulations in advance!


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## SANFRAN06

Hi Nat
CP was a really lovely day. We enjoyed it more than we thought and love being wives!!!!
Babies hanging on in there. Where do we get the PR form from?? Can we get it now so we are prepared as we will be so busy soon!! Keep searching the net and can not find out where to start.
Thanks again
Kerry and Jen


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## NatGamble

Awww brilliant - many congratulations.

The PR form is at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/cpra2_1205.pdf

BW

Natalie


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## SANFRAN06

Thanks so much Nat
Its so easy when you know how!! If only I had asked you a week ago?
Kerry


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## TerriWW

Hi Nat

I've a question for you.

My partner and I are in the middle of our 'surrogacy' (tecnically she has donated the embryos to me as we can do surrogacy as you know) ie I've got her embryos due to womb lining issues she had (we test on friday!!)

We had 2 put back and 2 more went on to blastocysts and were frozen. BUT.. apparently we are not allowed to use these frozen ones for 6 months (if this cycle does not work). This is somethnig to do with a rule/law(?)not being allowed to use donated frozen gametes until they have been frozen for 6 months. I'm guessing this is like frozen sperm ie so they can retest the donor and you know they have nothing that be passed on. BUT - in our case this is ridiculous - she's my partner!! I've just had her fresh embryos!

Our issue is, I'm 39 beginning of november and we have been trying to conceive with julia for 3 years. Now if this cycle doesn't work, I don't really want to wait until february/march to try with the frozen ones as I'll then be heading for 40 and if they don't work, the chances of us having a second child with my own eggs is getting slimmer and slimmer. I'd want to try with me until the frozen ones were available - but obviously this is not easy for my partner (our first child is biologically mine and it would be best if our second could be hers).

Ideally we would want to try again straight away with the frozen one. If it didn't work then, we'd try with my eggs and I think my partner could accept that easier. But having two frozen blastocycts sitting there would make it hard for her to want me to try with my eggs.

Hope that all makes sense but after all that, my question is... is this a law ie that they have to stay frozen for 6 months or is it just a HFEA 'rule'. It obviously takes no account of civil partnerships. Could we get them to make an exception for us if I contacted them or is it literally a law of the land that we can be made exception to? 

any info much appreciated.

Thanks 

Terri


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## NatGamble

Hi Terri

This is challengeable.  The HFEA Code of practice says:

"Gamete providers in surrogacy arrangements are expected to be screed in accordance with screening requirements for donors of gametes for treatment."

First of all that makes it clear that it is the normal rule, but not an absolute condition.  Second of all, I would dispute that you are in a surrogacy arrangement anyway.  A 'surrogate mother' is defined at law as a woman who carries a child with a view to any child being handed over to another person.  You are not giving your baby away, so it is not a surrogacy arrangement.

Since there is no requirement to quarantine donated eggs (for practical reasons - the survival rates are poor), then I can't see any reason why your embryos should be quarantined for six months.

I'd go back to your clinic and say all of this and if you are still having trouble let me know and I'll wade in for you.

Good luck

Natalie


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## TerriWW

Thanks for that Nat

The clinic don't class us as a 'surrogate' case - that was just my wording because you have to be married to use a surrogate due to parental rights ie the biological father would automatically have parental rights to the baby he and his wife have used a surrogate for. The clinic classed us in the donated embryos grouping - ie julia had to do all the donor screening and go on the donor register so she could donate to me......

Anyway, as it happens, things have changed rapidly in the last 2 days as we tested early and got a BFP!!!!!!!! Hurray! Very early though so still good to know we can challenge it should anything go wrong.

Also this means we can now start thinking properly about our CP and wills so may be getting in touch re this soon.

Thanks

Terri


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## mintyfaglady

Ooh, Terri, you saying wills has reminded me that's something on my to do list! Natalie, is this something you could do for us remotely (i.e. by post, email etc?). I'd rather you than someone we don't "know"! If not, do you (does anyone) know of gay-friendly solicitors in West Yorkshire?

Minty
xxx


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## NatGamble

Terri - Hoorah.  What brilliant news.  Loads of congratulations.

Minty - with pleasure.  I do loads of wills etc remotely since I'm based in Bournemouth and my clients are all over the place.  If you email me direct, we can get things rolling.

Natalie
[email protected]


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## Twinmummy

Terri -

I have just been reading this thread and was intrested to see that you have carried your partners eggs ! Firstly congrats on getting a BFP !! thats great news - we did the same - i carried my partners eggs - did IVF in may 06 fell first time with twin boys ! they are now 20 months old - i just havent come across many other people who have done it like that ! so its gr8 to find someone !

where do you have your treatment - we had ours at the london womens clinic in harley street. 

We are also going through the adoption at the mo so we both have same parental rights ! when is your first scan? you may have twins !!!!! I had IUI last thurs so hoping for baby number 3 !! do preg test on 04/10 !!


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## TerriWW

Hi Twinmummy

Nice to hear from someone whose done the same thing! We didn't actually plan it that way - we were planning to carry one each but we found my partner had problems with her womb lining so I became the 'surrogate' and it worked first time. Just one for us though - had the scan on friday. Ideal really as I would have worried more with twins - you know all the extra risks. We were treated at Midlands Fertility Clinic in aldridge where our first son was conceived too.

I post on the LGBT site on the general chit chat thread if you fancy posting over there.

Good luck with your IUI - fingers crossed!

Terri


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## Twinmummy

thats great - how do i get there ! im new to this !! so please excuse me ! thats greats new , wheter you get one, two or even three but as you say more than one is of course an added risk not to mention the worry !! good luck during the pregnancy !


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## leoaimee

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=156893.0

this is the link to the thread twinmummy but to find it just go to the gay and lesbian section and you should see it there its called general chit chat 1

congrats on your twins!!! how lovely! good luck with your 2ww!   come and join the chat!  aimee


----------



## juicy10

Hi Nat
Ive been trying to do research and Im still getting confused on the legal issues me and my partner will have to deal with next year.

I thought that if we were civil partnered, that made my partner automatically the child's other parent but so far I cant find anything to tell me that. Presently we are not married (civil partnered) but were going to register to that we are a proper family unit from before our baby is born. Can you simplify our options if there is any otheres than just applying for parental responsibility please?

Also if that is the only way whether or not we are civil partnered when would be apply for parental responsibility and how long before she could adopt?

And, sorry to go on, what rights does she have in regards of the birth certificate? We have agreed that the child will take her surname, would that be a problem?

Vicki


----------



## rosypie

nat knows everything much better than   i but in the meantime...

currently, only the mother's name goes on the birth certificate. you can give the child whatever surname you like.

you can apply for PR as soon as the baby is registered. your partner does not automatically have PR rights but it's very simple if you're CP'd. you just go to an office and get a form stamped (office at the court i think?). we did this and i know it was simple, I just can't remember the finer details  

there is an adoption thread somewhere in this (gay and lesbian) section. you can register your intent to adopt at 3 months and then at 6 you can adopt (although where we are there is a massive backlog of adoptions so nothing has happened for us yet).

there is some bill they were talking about passing or that would allow second parent (who's not the father) onto the birth certificate and give CP automatic PR but i don't know whether it was agreed finally or when it would come into force.


----------



## NatGamble

Excellent summary from Rosypie and not a lot to add really, but just to reiterate:

Being civil partners doesn't give you any rights automatically. However, it does make it slightly easier for you to acquire rights.

What you need to do is:

1. Once you are pregnant, make wills. This protects whoever is the non birth mother by ensuring that she would have a right to look after your baby if whoever is the birth mother died (e.g. in childbirth). This is the only protection measure you can take before the birth.

2. Once your baby is born and you have a birth certificate, you can acquire parental responsibility for the non-birth mother by signing an agreement (available at http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/cpra2_1205.pdf). You have to be civil partners to do this. You just need to pop into your local family court and a clerk in the office will witness your signature on the form. The non birth mother then has parental responsibility (i.e. legal authority to act as a parent and to make decisions etc), though not full legal parenthood.

3. Apply for adoption to give the non birth mother full and permanent parental status. You can do this whether or not you are civil partners. As Rosypie says, the process involves giving notice to social services (which you can do immediately after the birth) and then applying to court for adoption. The timing works as follows: you have to wait at least 3 months after giving notice to social services before submitting your court application, and you cannot submit your court application until your child is 6 months old.

The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill 2008 which is currently going through Parliament will, in the future, allow both mothers to be named on the birth certificate. Both will then have full and equal parental status from conception and none of the steps above will be necessary. However, the Bill will only apply to children conceived after it becomes law, which is currently expected to be toward the end of 2009.

I hope that clarifies.

Good luck

Natalie


----------



## ems832

Hi just wondering if there are any special legal steps I should think about if we go abroad for DI........ ??


----------



## NatGamble

Hiya

Going abroad for treatment doesn't make a lot of difference to the parenthood issues (assuming you are both British and living over here).  What it makes a difference to is the donor information rights your child will ultimately have e.g. if you go to a country with donor anonymity.  There are no particular legal steps to be taken, but I would always advise being well informed about these issues so you can make a decision about what's best for your family.

Natalie


----------



## NatGamble

Hi all

Can't remember when I last updated this thread, but just thought I should let you know that the new HFE Act rules (giving parental status to both lesbian partners) are due to come into force for conceptions after 6 April 2009.  Those TTC at the moment might want to miss a cycle next month and wait to get the benefit of the new rules.  It's not a disaster if you don't, but it will save you having to go through the adoption process.

Natalie


----------



## leoaimee

how wonderful and exciting!!!  such great news!  

(i wish i lived in england )


----------



## Misspie

I think thats great for alot of couples who aren't in a CP.....

WOOOHOOOOOO

We already looked at all these options prior to getting our CP last year, due to all the additional complications if not!

L
x


----------



## TerriWW

Could someone clear something up for me... does a CP automatically give the non biological partner parental rights over the children? or do they still need a parental responsibility order.

Thanks

Terri


----------



## pem

Me thinks you still need a PR order....not completely sure though!

this is excellent news, if we are lucky enough to concieve again, it will make my day to see DP's name on the birth certificate, wish it was like that for Edie!


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

Natalie might have answered the q's on this thread

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=177623.0
L x


----------



## rosypie

you still need a PR order Terri - being CP'd just means it's a paper stamping exercise rather than an appearance in court exercise.

it's going to be so much simpler for you ladies conceiving after 6th April...


----------



## TerriWW

Thanks for the info guys

Terri


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/latest-national-news/Victory-for-lesbians-in-baby.5022720.jp

Lesbian couple get NHS success in Scotland

/links


----------



## mosie32

Hi, 

Do the changes that come in after 6 April re: both partner's being the legal parents & named on the birth cert apply if you are doing home insemination with your donor, or is it just if you go through a clinic?  

Thanks, Polly


----------



## leoaimee

im just guessing Polly hopefully Nat will be along to answer your question, but i would think because of the legal ambiguity around using a known donor it wouldnt be the same .... but its just a guess.


----------



## nismat

Polly, the new law *does * apply if you're doing home insems, *but * only if you're in a civil partnership. I would think that you would probably need to be in a CP at the time of conception, rather than at the time of birth, given that the laws apply to babies conceived on or after April 6th. That's just a guess though. 
If you're already doing insems, then you could potentially run into issues over "proving" the date of conception. On the whole, if you were required to prove it, they would probably work back from the due date.


----------



## leoaimee

thats great!!!  thanks nismat for clarifying!


----------



## mosie32

Thanks for clarifying, that is wonderful news!  

Our donor was going to donate via a clinic so that we had the legal protection in place for us all, but they've not been great and it's taken forever...  so it's great that we can talk to him about going ahead without the clinic & hopefully start in April.

My partner & I did our CP 2 1/2 yrs ago so we are okay on that front.  

I'm very excited now!  Thanks xxx


----------



## single.mummy

Hi everyone
I am new here. We have a four month old daughter and are hoping to try and conceive again later in the year. We use a local clinic though we are not in a CP (saving our money to have babies!!). Anyhow, my question was, post April 6th, do we have to be in a CP for DP to be named on the birth certificate of any future babies, should we be so fortunate. We have been a couple for 10 years this month and will that suffice or do we need the CP?
Thanks in advance


----------



## lesbo_mum

Hiya

Welcome!!

you dont need to be in a CP if you use a HFEA reg clinic which im presuming you will be hun...

Where are u from?

Em x


----------



## single.mummy

We live in Manchester and use a fully registered clinic. It is just a shame that the law had not been passed when we concieved our daughter, we will have to arrange for DP to adopt her. Oh well, an excuse for another party.
Thanks


----------



## pipgirl

Hi 2mummies

we too live in manchester and used one of the two private clinics for our baby which is due next week...we had our CP before concieving this pg, not because it made a differentce to the birth cert but so that DP would be my next of kin in law and able to make decisions for me and our baby (that sounds morbid) second to the fact that we loved each other of course!!!

i feel its such a shame that the law is not retrospective as it means DP cant be on this babies birth cert but both of us can be on a siblings...so unfair.

At the moment we are planning to ttc number two from jan 2010 ~(hopefully with DP carrying some of my frozen embies from this cycle) Big congrats on your baby!!!

We are also thinking of possibly making contact with an lbg parents group in the area after baby is born as we dont have many lgb friends and feel it may be important for baby in the future..not sure though..bit scary!!

Hope all is going well for you.

Pipgirl


----------



## single.mummy

Ooh congratulations for next week (or anytime soon really), I bet you are really excited!!!
Which hospital are you under, we had E at Hope hospital and they were really good. You don't say which part of Manchester you are from but if you are quite central I know they have a meet at Alexandra Park, Whalley Range on the 4th Saturday of the month for women with children. We haven't been yet, something always seems to be happening, so I don't know whether it is good or not but could be worth a luck.
Anyway, all the best for next week.


----------



## single.mummy

Hi
Could I also ask your advice - what can I do to get DP recognised as our little one's "second parent"? Any help from those that have done this would be great, I don't know where to start. We are not in a CP, though have been together for 10 years almost.

Thanks


----------



## Twinmummy

Hey the 2 mummies,

Myself and DP are not in a CP either and we went down the whole adoption route after getting advice from Natalie Gamble who basically said adoption would be the only thing that would give DP full and PERMANANT legal parental rights to our twin boys.  Thank goodness for natalie gamlbe as our social worker told us that a parental responsibility order would be just as secure and adoption is far to intrusive to want to bother with!

We applied to our local council when the boys were about 8 months old and they were officially 'adopted' in december 08 about 1 month before they were 2 !!! we were told it could take sometime but to be honest we didnt have a very good time with it all when an organisation called CAFCASS got involved! (Court and family children advisory service)

Our original social worker was really good who got the ball rolling but then mentioned a lady from CAFCASS would need to see me to ensure that i hasnt been made to have the boys adopted against my will!

We were happy to go along with whatever needed to be one to get this finalised but wasnt very happy with CAFCASS atal. Most of their errors we think were down to lack of knowledge in same sex adoption with children who are already theirs ! 

We told them countless times that the donor was anonymous and no details would be released until the boys were 18 but they insisted that they had to put a 'special' pack together for the boys incase we didnt tell them everything at that point as they had to look after the boys best intrests ! (it has always been our intensions to tell them everything) i can see their point but they totally went about it the wrong way. The hassled the LWC sperm bank to release donor information and when they didnt it resulted in a letter from CAFCASS saying they would issue court proceedings against her if she didnt do so ! we couldnt believe it.

They also rang the boys day care nursery and asked for information on how the boys were doing development wise as the 'dad' needed to know. (our nursery knows everything and im friendly with the manager so she thought it was strange as she knows the boys havent got a dad.)

I made a complaint at this point as it seemed she wasnt working on our case in the correct way whatsoever.

The reason i mention all this is just so that you are aware of similar things when you do it.

We are very pleased its all done and dusted now but very dissapointed in the total lack of knowledge and respect for our family thoughout. 

I hope you have a much nicer experience and good luck XX

Nina


----------



## MandMtb

Nina, I'm sorry about your expereince with CAFCASS, but am pleased for the end result for you, congratulations!

For others interested, like Nina found, most adoption agencies will try and encourage you to aply for other orders rather than an Adoption Order. But if this is really what you want stick to your guns! As it is the most secure Order to give the non bio parent full PR permenantly.

S x x x


----------



## single.mummy

Nina, I am sorry that you had such a horrid time and I hope that we do not suffer with too many similar problems. But forewarned..... Thanks, I will try and look into it before I return to work as I am sure it will be easier when I am not working to get in contact with the relevant organisations.
Thanks again


----------



## leoaimee

crickey bob twinmummy!!!!  what a bloomin crock up!!  they sound terrible!

i cant wait to live in england again, when gaby and i can both be legal parents ... there is nothing we can do here.   

BACKWARDS little colonial outpost that it is!


----------



## Twinmummy

Hey Aimee - long time no speak ! congrats on getting to 30 weeks !

Thats a real shame you can both be legal parents there. Is it something likely for the future do you know ? Do you plan to move back here aimee with gaby and your daugther?


----------



## leoaimee

eventually we will come back to england, i couldnt face the thought of it being forever!  but i think timing wise its going to be when gaby doesnt have the responsibility of her parents .... which could be 10 /15 years i suppose     its a horrid thing because its horrid to think im waiting for them to pop their clogs effectively before i can go home....

and our LO will be almost an adult by then ....

but who knows what will happen.  i try to enjoy the good things that we have being here!  but for LGBT things gib is in the DARK AGES!!  Peter Tatchel comes here to protest about in equality in the law.

two gay women are currently taking the gib gov to court in europe for discrimination because they live together in a council flat and have done for twenty years, one of their names is on the rent book, and if the other one outlives her she will be made homeless.


----------



## lesbo_mum

I just relised its gone past April 6th woo hoo!!! happy *****'s aloud on birth cert day after day


----------



## mintyfaglady

We registered our baby's birth today and got our PR forms signed so my wife has some legal rights to our son until we can go through the adoption. She's finding it all very upsetting, having to jump through these hoops - I think in part because that law change is so close yet no use to us now, though I'll be able to take advantage of it if she carries our second. It's great that we CAN secure legal rights to our kids in the UK, but I do feel for her.


----------



## leoaimee

ahh minty!    it must just bring it all into focus actually having to go through the buraucracy ... (SP?) but in the end its a good thing.  we have all moved on so much legally in the uk in the last few years, there is much to celebrate!


----------



## nickidee

aimeegaby said:


> we have all moved on so much legally in the uk in the last few years, there is much to celebrate!


Amen to that - although it is undeniably frustrating when you are met with such ineptitude by social workers and cafcass. We seem to be constantly educating and informing the supposed officials on the law and have had similar experiences with inappropriate questions being asked about the anonymous donor.


----------



## Twinmummy

Hi Nickidee - we had so many problems with Cafcass too - a complete joke. The really are the wrong sort of people to be dealing with these sort of 'adoptions'!

are you all done now ?


----------



## nickidee

Our final hearing is 30 April   - we have been incredibly lucky that our local authority have dealt with it quickly, albeit in an uneducated way.


----------



## Pink1970

Hi Natalie - I've been reading the posts with interest re legal issues and parental rights for non-birth mum. I wonder if you could clarify something for us. I'm 33 weeks pregnant with twins (and over he moon!). I want to ensure the maximum amount of protection for my partner. We have a civil partnership and live in Scotland. The twins' father is a known donor and we went through an NHS clinic where we live in Scotland. We do not intend to name him on the birth certificate and unfortunately because the wee ones were conceived before April 6th - I can't put my other half down on the birth certificate. The only reason we don't want to name our donor on the certificate is so as not to muddy the waters when hopefully my other half adopts the twinnies. He will be involved - but doesn't want parental responsibility. 

The good thing is that my partner and I are both approved adopters already. We got so far down the adoption process - but because of a legislative loophole that only exists in Scotland, same sex couples are till barred from fostering. This caused many problems with the process - so we took the other route, and now I'm happily pregnant.

So that's the background - what I'm wondering is will the process be easier because my partner is already an approved adopter by our local authority - and is your pervious advice in the earlier postings apply in Scotland. 

I still intend to see a lawyer this week and make sure my will is water tight. So we have some piece of mind for my partner should anything happen to me before the adoption order can be granted.

Any advice appreciated

Many thanks

Fiona


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Fiona

I've just replied to you via email as well, but thought I should post here too for the benefit of anyone else.

The rules on adoption law for same sex couples are different in Scotland from England and Wales.  Although as an English lawyer I can't deal with Scottish cases, I do have links with a good and friendly Scottish lawyer based in Edinburgh to whom I refer all my Scottish cases.  If anyone needs me to put you in touch, just let me know.

Best of luck

Natalie
[email protected]


----------



## ragill

Hi everyone, i'm a newbie here and have got so much infomation, its great!!!

My partner and i are in the position where we are using a known donor, he is doing an amazing thing for us and we are so grateful to him. We considered clinics but it was just too much money, and he said he could donate for us......anyway my questions are really about his NON involvement. He has his own family and he (and we) dont want him named as the father. We see him very little (apart from us now TTC) probably about once a year. I have thought very hard about my/our rights and the babys rights, what i understand is that if my partner and i are married before i have the baby she gets PR and i can put her name on the birth certificate?(is that right) and then for her to have equally amount of rights as i do she then has to adopt? is this right? 

Its so confusing, i hope i've made sense, any advice would be really appreciated

Rachel x


----------



## rosypie

as of april this year, if you and your partner are in a civil partnership when you conceive then she will be the legal second parent and she won't need to apply for PR or adopt or jump through any of those annoying legal hoops. there might be some paperwork you need beforehand though, i'm not sure.


----------



## katena

My understanding is.....assuming your get treatment through a clinic...

If you are not civil partners both bio and non bio mothers need to fill out a form giving consent for the non bio mother to be classed as the 2nd parent.

Direct quote from their site.... I am in a lesbian relationship and we are not in a civil partnership. We are planning to use donor sperm in our treatment at a licensed clinic on or after 6th April. How will the new parenthood law affect us?
Both you and your partner will need to consent to the woman who will not give birth being the child's second parent, in order for her to be legally recognised as such. The new consent forms that will be used by clinics from 6th April, will allow you to make sure that both you and your partner provide the appropriate consents. 

The are forms available from HFEA http://www.hfea.gov.uk/730.html as well....so very handy!!

However if you are CP's then you dont have to fill any forms out and non bio mother is considered 2nd parent.

I am in a civil partnership and we plan to use donor sperm, or embryos created using donor sperm. This will take place on or after 6th April. How will the new parenthood law affect us?
Your partner will automatically be recognised as the child's second legal parent, unless she explicitly states that she did not consent to your treatment. There is a section in the new consent forms that asks this question. 
If you have treatment using donor sperm or embryos created using donor sperm and your partner has explicitly stated that she does not consent to your treatment, she will not be the child's second legal parent. The child will have no second legal parent. 

I guess this may ALL go to pot if concieving at home with a known donor!

Hope that helps

karen

/links


----------



## lesbo_mum

if your in a CP the rules also apply for home insems i checked with Nat lol


----------



## whisks

hiya

i took my forms into the clinic the other day, we had filled in both of those forms about giving consent to be legal parents even though we are in a civil partnership. i asked the nurse if we had needed to fill them in and she said everyone has to fill them in even heterosexual married couples. to be honest i don't really think it is necessary but it doesn't harm to fill them in anyway.

whisks x


----------



## NatGamble

Agreed - it does no harm to sign them.  

Strictly speaking what the law says (which is not exactly what the HFEA says!) is that if a woman is in a civil partnership and conceives by artificial insemination or embryo transfer, then her civil partner is the child's second legal parent 'unless it is shown that she does not consent'.  

In other words, to disprove parenthood, someone has to establish that a civil partner does not consent, and that is a question of fact, not of what the paperwork says.  The paperwork may therefore be evidence but it isn't conclusive.  This means that there is no need for civil partners to sign consent forms to establish parenthood.  Equally, signing a form to say you don't consent wouldn't necessarily exclude your parenthood if the form was not supported by the facts.

For non-civil partners the situation is different.  You do (both) have to sign the parenthood election forms before conception for the non-birth mother to be treated as the legal parent, and the paperwork is conclusive - if you sign it, you are a parent; if not, you are not.

Hope that makes sense!

Natalie


----------



## katena

A new story in the news....all very positive!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6719152.ece

k


----------



## lesbo_mum

fab artical Katena but £700 for a IUI cycle   where do they get these figures from... find me a clinic who do donor IUI for £700  

Dont read the comments at the bottom made by people it will just annoy you


----------



## katena

OMG!!!

No dont read the responses - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Idiots!!!!

k


----------



## lesbo_mum

some people are still so small minded hun and stuck back in the 1800's


----------



## dyketastic

The comments are just ridiculous    but it still angers me to read it grrrrr


----------



## NatGamble

http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/blog/

Hooray - we're finally there!

Natalie

/links


----------



## Guest

Yipee!!! I'll never forget DPs sad look as disappontment when we realised there was no where for her name to go on DS' birth cert . We better cracking on making number 2 then!


----------



## BecsW

Ooh...I am a little bit confused...I thought that any child conceived through a clinic with same sex parents from 6th April 2009 onwards both get to put their name on the birth certificate, so I had assumed that this was legal from the 6th April?  I am 9 weeks pregnant (conceived in mid July) will both our names be on the certificate? We deliberately waited until after the 6th April cut off to ensure that we both would be but I am a bit worried now...
Becs


----------



## Pinktink

No you are right, any baby conceived after 6th april is covered by the act but 1st september is the first time a baby could be born who is covered by the legislation (hopefully not as they would be extremely premature) 

It's something that we are both really happy about...

xx


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Becs

As Pinktink says, don't worry - you will be covered if you conceived in July.  The registrars are just getting themselves ready for the actual registrations as from tomorrow, although I very much hope it'll be a few months yet before there are any arrivals.

Just out of curiosity, of all those PG here, it would be interesting to know who was closest to 6th April and stands the chance of being the first registration.....


----------



## lucky2010

Hi nat,

do we count as well even though we're using a known donor and not going through a clinic? We are civil partnered. Hope so!

Thanks

rach


----------



## NatGamble

Yes, provided you conceived after 6 April 2009, were civil partners at the time and conceived through artificial insemination rather than intercourse (although I'll be interested to see how many registrars are brave enough to clarify the final point!).


----------



## Skybreeze

Just wanted to say what fantastic news this is!!     

I am so pleased that finally something has changed for the better!  

Natalie xxx


----------



## Damelottie

Fabulous news


----------



## jude888

does this new legislation apply in Northern Ireland as well ?? am assuming so seeing as civil partnerships happen here? but just wondered - would love any advice please

jude


----------



## leoaimee

this is amazingly fab news!!  i would have our no 2 baby in the uk just to take advantage of the legislation!!!  amazing!

it would be coolio if one of the FFers was the FIRST!

axxx


----------



## Avalonian

Hello everyone,
it's been a while and we have managed to get pregnant with a known donor in July. Do you know if the legislation applies to Scotland as well? And does anyone know of a lesbian friendly solicitor in Aberdeen? We are trying to get stuff sorted out legally but it is a bit scary. 
Thanks for the help,
Avalonian


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Avalonian - Yes the new parenthood rules apply throughout the UK so will cover you in Scotland as well as England.  If you were civil partners when you conceived, you should therefore both be treated as parents automatically without needing to take any further steps.  If not, you may need some legal advice about applying for adoption.  I have a contact in Edinburgh who may be able to help - PM me if you would like me to send you the details.

Hi Jude - I've just replied to your question on Ask a Lawyer too (and sorry for the delay) but yes you will also be covered in Northern Ireland.

Best wishes

Natalie


----------



## Avalonian

Thank you Natalie.
This is really great news and a huge relief. We had a civil partnership two years ago, so we should be fine. Thank you for the advice.
Avalonian


----------



## ragill

hi nat/everyone

well me and me dp have finally done it and we're expecting!!!! (EDD 13/06/10)

so, we're not married but plan to. my question is, if we get married before beany is born can her name go on the birth certificate and also (dont know if i'm allowed to ask this) if the answer is no, can we 'play dumb' and get married quickly then protest innocence? does this make sense.... 

thanx for advice ladies, showers of baby dust to u all

rach xx


----------



## NatGamble

Fantastic news - many congratulations!

Assuming that you didn't conceive at a clinic, then you have to be civil partners at the time of conception for the parenthood rules to apply.  Getting married before the birth won't be sufficient I'm afraid.

If you do miss the boat, all is not lost.  You can remedy things by going through the adoption process post-birth (and by signing a parental responsibility agreement which is a quicker stop-gap).

Happy to help if you want some guidance on this.

Natalie


----------



## ragill

*Thanks Nat!
always happy to hear from u! i have contacted u in the past and hopefully in the new year will contact u at ur firm for further advise on our situation.

rach xx*


----------



## motos

OK, I have an obscure question I think! We are in a CP, I'm british, my partner is from Argentina (with dual British/Argentinean passports). We are trying to conceive and I would be the birth mother. Would Argentina recognise my partner as legal parent, as she is on the birth certificate but not the mother? 

I appreciate you will have no idea about Argentina specifically, but I assume that there might be some common legal precedent - eg countries without their own gay marriage/CP laws don't recognise CPs, but those with their own, similar laws do (obviously this is paraphrasing and may even be wrong, it's just my impression!)

The reason for asking is that we were wondering whether our child would be entitled to an Argentinean passport - if we were straight/partner was the birth mother, the child would get a passport if he/she lived there for a certain amount of time.

Thanks

Motos


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Motos

Unfortunately there aren't any international treaties on these brand new parenthood laws, so we have just no idea at the moment the extent to which they'll be recognised in other countries.  It's a fantastic question for an Argentinian lawyer!


----------



## motos

OK, thanks for the reply!


----------



## leoaimee

we plan to have baby no 2 in the next couple of years, we hope to CP in uk or marry in spain next year ... would a marriage in spain count for us if we concieve in uk and give birth in uk

love ax


----------



## nismat

Aimee, obviously I'm not the fount of legal knowledge that is Nat, but if you were conceiving at a clinic in the UK, then you don't have to be CP'd anyway, you'd still both be legal parents (you have to fill in various forms at the clinic to show that you haven't chosen to divert from this path), pretty definitely so if you gave birth in the UK.


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Aimee

Yes, if you marry in Spain, you will automatically be treated as being civil partners in the UK.  You will then qualify as both being legal parents under English law, whether you conceive through home insemination or a clinic and wherever in the world you conceive.  If you register the birth in the UK, you can both be named on the birth certificate.

As Nismat says, you can also be treated as joint legal parents as non civil partners, although only if you conceive at a clinic in the UK and sign all the right forms before conception.

Hope that's of reassurance.  Best of luck with no.2 and the wedding plans!

Natalie


----------



## leoaimee

ahhh thanks thats great!  ax


----------



## TerriWW

Hi Nat

I expect this has been asked before! I'm trying to find out if my partner has legal parental responsibility of our two children.

Angus was born june 05 and Romy was born March 09. I'm the birth mother. We had our civil partnership in Feb 09. Does the civil partnership automatically give her PAretnal responsibility or do we have to still get a parental responsiblilty order.

Thanks

Terri


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Terri

No, your partner doesn't automatically have parental responsibility, but you don't need an order either - you can get PR for her by signing a step parent PR agreement. There's some more info about what to do (with a link to the form you need) on our website at:

http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/children-conceived-2/6/

Best of luck

Natalie

/links


----------



## BecsW

Hi Nat,
Wondered if you could answer a question for us? We had our Civil Partnership in Jan 2009 and conceived in June 2009 through a clinic using a known donor. At the clinic we both signed consent forms for my partner to be recognised as second legal parent. Can you let us know what process we need to take when we go to register our baby's birth (we live in quite a small town and wouldn't be surprised if we are the first same sex couple registering our baby's birth at this registry office, so wanted to make sure we know the process for ourselves). Do we need to take our Civil Partnership certificate and if so is this all we need to take or do we also need to take our consent forms,
Thanks in advance,
Becs and Helen


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Becs and Helen

As you were civil partners when you conceived, then technically all you need is your civil partnership certificate, and the clinic consent forms you signed were superfluous.  However, in practice I'd suggest you take everything along with you and show it all to the registrar.  The registrars have all received training on the new rules so should know what they are doing.  

Any problems, let me know, but I'm sure you'll be fine.

Best of luck with the rest of the pregnancy.

Natalie


----------



## starrysky

Hi,
I wonder if anyone could clear up a bit of confusion for us?  
I had a son by IVF in 2006, DP got a parental responsibility order in 2007, we also became civil partners prior to the birth in 2006, but I was pregnant at the time.
DP is currently having IVF through a clinic, so should she be sucessful we have signed the necessary forms for us both to be acknowledged as legal parents on the birth certificate - DP is keen to adopt our son and we applied last year, currently in the assessment process. 
Our question is: Does she just adopt him or is it better to both adopt him, our social worker asked which we wanted to do, partly due to a bit of an unclear explanation of the implications of each, partly as it seemed easier and partly as it feels ridiculous for me as bio-mum to adopt my own child so far we have said just DP!      What is the best way to go with this?  What would be the closest thing, in terms of what is on the birth/adoption certificate to the documents any future child would have.  Is the original birth certifcate invalid in both circumstances?
Confused!!!We would be grateful for thoughts on this.
Starrysky & Crazycat


----------



## Twinmummy

Hello StarrySky And CrazyCat !!

Its all so confusing isnt it !! 

When DP 'adopted' our children back in 2008 only SHE had to adopt them as me being the birth mother i was already a legal parent so no need to adopt them. 

Although we received 'adoption' certificates for them both to say 'that they are now fully fledged members of the osborne family' i believe their birth certificates to still be valid as their names did not change in any way.....  I changed my name by deed poll (to my partners surname) before our boys were born so we all had the same name on birth certs. will your childrens name be changing ??

I hope ive cleared something up for you and i hope im right re birth certs!

Nina


----------



## rosypie

i was pretty sure that whichever way you did it, the adoption certificate that shows both of your names as parents replaces the original birth certificate. it is confusing.


----------



## starrysky

Thanks for your replies........ 

Adam's name will stay the same as we both had the same surname from when I was pregnant.

Maybe we'll ask the social worker again on Friday, cant believe that's come round again! And right in the niddle of the 2WW

Starrysky and Crazycat


----------



## Mable

Hi girls,
Good luck in your 2ww.

The adoption certificate has a section for parents and then both your names are there. This certificate is the one you use, the original birth certificate is then invalid. It will look similar to the one you will hopefully get for your next child with you both named on it as parents but the adoption one does say adoption certificate and is obviously dated much later than the child's birth.

Very hopeful for you both x


----------



## NatGamble

Hi there

Just to explain this one and hopefully clear up the confusion.  Until 2006, you could apply for adoption as a single person or as a couple, and any adoption order automatically extinguished the birth status of all the natural parents.  So in old-style heterosexual step parent adoptions (e.g. where mum and step-dad were adopting to extinguish bio dad's status), they would have to apply to adopt as a couple and both would then become adoptive parents.  The adoption order would extinguish both birth parents' natural status and override it with adoptive status.

In 2006 they changed adoption law and this did two things:  it allowed same sex couples to apply to adopt for the first time, and it created a new possibility of partner adoption.  This allowed partners to apply to adopt without extinguishing the birth status of both parents (essentially they replaced one birth parent, but their partner retained his/her natural status).

Historically, this now leaves you guys with two options:

1) You can jointly apply for adoption, in which case birth mum's natural rights are extinguished and you both become adoptive parents, or
2) Non-birth mum can apply for a sole adoption order as birth mum's partner, which extinguishes dad's legal status (if there is a dad) but leaves birth mum's status intact.

In practice, it's all a complete technicality, since the ultimate outcome is an adoption certificate which supersedes the birth certificate and names you both as the parents anyway (without any reference as to whether you are a birth or adoptive parent).  Either way, you will both be full and equal legal parents.

All it makes a difference to is how you fill in the forms - jointly or just in the name of the non birth mum.

Hope that helps!

Natalie


----------



## Twinmummy

Thanks Nat , so does this mean i cant actually use my childrens birth certs for anything anymore i.e opening bank accs etc. Would i have to use their 'adoption certs' ?

I know the answer is probably yes but i just want to make sure. Of course its all good now DP is their 'legal' parent too but the whole birth certificate issue still grates on me !

Thanks
Nina


----------



## starrysky

Thanks very much Nat - That is very clear now. 
Starrysky & Crazycat


----------



## Pixie Lolly

Hi Natalie,

I'm new to this thread and whole support thing, so please forgive me if I sound ignorant. I was under the impression that because non-birth mums are able to register on birth certificates now, that that gives them as much right to be a parent as the birth mum. Is this right? My partner is having our first child (hopefully!) and I thought I just had to have my name on the birth certificate. Do I need to adopt as well? (We are making a will soon). Oh and we are using an 'unknown' donor. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks, 
Pixie Lolly


----------



## rosypie

yes, thanks nat. it's a shame they didn't change the law in time for us but a certificate with both our names on is what we want and if that means saying 'goodbye' to the birth certificate then so be it. it does grate a little on me too nina but i have to look at it like this - that the birth one is meaningless because it doesn't have DP's name on it, it doesn't reflect the true picture.

hi pixie, if you conceived at a clinic now you will both be on the birth certificate, both be equal parents and there will be no need for you to adopt. the law only changed recently though so there are a lot of us who had children before who still have to go through the faff of an adoption, meaning we end up with an adoption certificate for our children.


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## summer_rain

What happens when you go to register the birth?  
Do you need proof that you conceived at a clinic and if so what do you need?


----------



## NatGamble

Hi all

@Twinmummy - Yes, the adoption certificate is now the 'valid' one (although I doubt anyone would question it anyway - come to think of it, I've just confirmed my youngest's school place and just took in his birth certificate when asked - it didn't even cross my mind to take the adoption certificate LOL!).

@Pixielolly - Rosiepie's quite right: this adoption stuff is only relevant for those with children conceived before 6 April 2009 (and for non-civil partners who conceive outside a UK licensed clinic afterwards). For most of those TTC now, you will both be legal parents automatically and won't need to apply for adoption. There's more detail on how the law works (and what applies for who) for anyone who needs it free on our website at http://www.gambleandghevaert.com/page/Lesbian-couples/4/

@Summer_rain - If you are civil partners, you just need to take your CP certificate; if you are not civil partners, you will need to take a copy of the consent to parenthood forms you signed at the clinic before you conceived.

Hope that helps!

Natalie


----------



## Pixie Lolly

Thanks Rosypie and Natalie. And thanks for the link. Very helpful xx


----------



## Hales :)

You need to ensure that you both fill out the relevant forms (think they're on the HFEA website - you need the PP form and the WP form) before treatment at your licensed clinic commences.  You need to keep a copy and your clinic needs to have a copy.  When you register the birth you just need these forms as proof. We filled ours out last May before our last fresh IVF cycle, we don't need to fill another out unless any of our details changes for any subsequent cycle (I've checked this with the HFEA).

Not heard of anyone having done this successfully yet - I'd have thought there would have been a bit of hoo-ha in the media once the first child with 2 legal mothers on its birth certificate was born - but maybe not!


----------



## summer_rain

Sorry.  I am still a bit confused.

I can't remember if we signed one copy or two at the clinic.  My DP phoned the clinic and they sent us the original copy of the forms that we signed.  Does that mean that the clinic no longer has a copy and is that going to be an issue?  

I don't want us to go to the registry office and me be on the birth certificate only for them to check with the clinic and them not to have any copies of the forms and for the birth certificate to be null and voided.  Not that I know if thats even possible but I just want to be certain its all done properly!


----------



## Hales :)

I've no idea, I'm afraid we haven't bee lucky enough to get that far, however:
My partner signed form WP which is the form 'Your consent to your partner being the legal parent'
and I signed the PP form which is the form 'Your consent to being the legal parent'
It's my understanding that the clinic should have a copy, so may be worth making a photocopy and giving it them back.  I'm sure as long as you have a copy of the form when you register the birth wiht the clinic number on you'll be ok.

That said, if you're in a civil partnership, there's no need for all this faff and you'll automatically be the legal parent


----------



## NatGamble

Hi all

From what I'm hearing from clients actually doing this, here is what you need to produce to the registrar when registering the birth:

If you were civil partners at the time of conception (and whether conception was at home or at a clinic) - your original civil partnership certificate.

If you were not civil partners at conception - Forms WP and PP, which must have been signed by each of you before your conception at a licensed UK clinic.

Natalie


----------



## Hales :)

That's exactly what we were told - I've e-mailed the HFEA to ask whether you keep needing to get WP & PP signed for each treatment, they've said as long as your details haven't changed (i.e passport number, clinic, address) then no, they'll still stand


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## midnightaction

I was wondering if I could clarify something. Will my CP only gain parental responsibility if she is named on the birth certificate or will she automatically get parental responsibility just by being my CP alone. 

Let me clarify, my CP and I are separated and have been for 3 years but have not had our CP legally dissolved. This works fine for us because neither of us want to go through the legal process of getting it dissolved, I think that despite the fact we both have new lives we still kind like having that link to each other. Anyway I am having treatment now as a single person ( using donor eggs abroad) which my ex is fully aware of but she is not going to be a part of mine or my child's life, and I have no intention of naming her on the birth certificate (unless I have to legally).My question is will she have an legal rights or responsibilities over my child just by being my CP? Could she have any say in the childs up bringing? Could the CSA ever go after her for any money if I ever claim any benefits in the future? I don't want to put her in any sort of position that could cause her future problems and I also don't want her coming after me for potential custody in the future should she decide to take it upon herself to go down that route. I don't for one second think she would ever do such a thing but I think I need to cover all bases. 

I know that the easy answer is to get the CP dissolved, and I know I sound a little crazy for not doing that but it is hard to explain but both of us still want to hold on to the one thing that once held us together , so I am looking for an alternative if that is possible.

Also, I doubt it will make any difference but when CP and I got married we took on a double barrelled surname which I still use (she has gone back to her maiden name) and I intend to use that surname for my children as well, will using our "married" name cause a problem ?  

Any help anyone could give would be great.

Sarah x x


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Sarah

This is potentially quite a complicated situation.  Your civil partner will be your child's legal parent and will have parental responsibility, unless it is shown that she did not consent to the conception.  In other words she is presumed to be a parent unless you (or she) can prove otherwise, and the burden is to prove that she is not a parent, rather than the other way around.  I would normally recommend that you create some evidence from the time of conception to help support you if there are any problems in the future, since otherwise the facts can become very blurred over time.  How best to do this will depend on your particular circumstances, and I would be happy to advise - feel free to email me.

You may also want to think about sorting some other bits and pieces out e.g. updating your Will to provide for your child rather than your CP.

Best wishes

Natalie
[email protected]


----------



## midnightaction

Nat

Thank you so much for your help. 

It would seem that the only way to protect myself and my future child fully is to dissolve the CP and although not what I really want if it prevents future problems then it is something I am prepared to do. 

If I was to start the ball rolling on the dissolvement straight away I assume it would take 6 months or so to all go through, but my treatment is next month, so where would I stand with that if the treatment is successful. Would she still get parental responsibility as we were in the CP at the point of conception or would she not get it as long as the dissolution is completed by the time the baby is born? If I start the dissolution before the conception date is that a good thing or does it make no difference ? 

I can't delay treatment(nor would I want to) as I am doing DE and I have been waiting so long for this.

Thanks again 

Sarah


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Sarah

There are things you can do to protect yourself and go ahead with your treatment asap.  The best course depends on the particular facts, and it's probably best to discuss this offline for reasons I can explain.  Feel free to email me or give me a ring.

Natalie
[email protected]


----------



## Zuzana

Hi,
I already asked this question on another forum, where you also help people with legal issues and got a response, which I am grateful for, but I am still not very sure, if this would be the case in our situation.
About us: Me and my partner are planning to become civil partners before trying for a baby hopefully next year. We are not British Citizens, but are from an EU country, so can work here legally without visa, have national insurance numbers etc. We are planning on staying here for good, so my question is: are we able to have our names on the birth certificate? would our baby even get a British birth certificate? I really do hope so, but I desperately need to find out if this is even possible for us. I would be devastated if not, but at least I would know...
If anyone could help me with this, I would be eternally grateful. I did so much research already, but we are such a specific case (lol), that there is not much information on this anywhere. If you need any more information in order to help please feel free to ask!
Thank you so much in advance for any responses
xxx
Zuzana


----------



## Zuzana

Anyone?


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Zuzana

If your baby is born here in the UK, his or her birth will be registered here and the registrar will apply the rules of UK law which means that you can both be named on the birth certificate (assuming you qualify under the UK law rules).  

There is currently no international harmonisation of law on the rules on parenthood for same sex parents, which means that your joint status is unlikely to be recognised elsewhere in the world, unless there is provision under a particular foreign law.  There are some complex private international law rules dictating which system of law applies for those in international family situations, and the application of these rules to same sex parent families is as yet almost completely untested.  However, as things stand, it seems likely your position will be secured at least here in the UK, even if the situation more widely is more unknown.

Hope this helps!

Best of luck

Natalie


----------



## Brazil

Hi Nat

We are TTC at the moment through a donor we met through a website and are doing home insemination's. When I get pregnant and have my child the donor will have no involvement at all. I am in a civil partnership and wanted to find out if we would need to get my partner to apply for adoption or if she can go on the birth certificate straight away. Based on our knowledge so far we understand that we would have to conceive through a fertility clinic if my partner was to be able to go on the birth certificate, is that right? 

Thanks for your help in advance. 

Brazil


----------



## Hales :)

I've got a vague recollection (I could be wrong) that as you are civil partners your partner will automatically be named as other parent.


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## NatGamble

Hi Brazil (and Hales)

If you are civil partners at the time of conception, then you and your partner are the legal parents (provided you conceive 'artificially' and both consent to the conception) and can both be named on the birth certificate.  The registrar will just ask to see your civil partnership certificate when you go and register the birth.  You don't need to go through an adoption process.

Best of luck with TTC!

Natalie


----------



## floralou

Sorry I haven't had chance to read through this entire topic....was just wondering if anybody could give any rough ballpark figures as to how much parental responsibility costs, and also how much adoption proceedings cost??

OH and I were wanting to get our civil partnership next year (have started planning etc etc) but want to start TTC this year....and obviously need to factor in saving up for legal fees if we conceive before we are CP'd.

I know it varies from place to place...but I can't find any prices anywhere so dont know whether we're looking at £100 or £10,000.


----------



## Hales :)

Hi Laura - If you are going through a licensed fertility clinic for treatment you don't need to get parental responsibility, you both just need to sign consent forms PP & WP to give consent to being the 'Other parent' on the birth certificate.  We aren't CP'd yet, but I am on the birth certificate in this way.


----------



## floralou

Hi Hales,

Thanks for your reply 

We're not using a clinic unfortunately, we're using a known donor...

x


----------



## BecsW

Hi BizzE3, As far as I know you need to be in a CP first, unfortunately, it is not possible to backdate. I also think that you are right, if you use a UK clinic as long as you both sign the consent forms then you can both be on the birth certificate (without being in a CP), not sure this applies to clinics abroad though. When we were trying to conceive, we realised that if we conceived in the March (09) then we wouldn't both be on the birth certificate because the legislation was not brought in until April 09, so we decided to wait a month, it was heartbreaking at the time, I just wanted to get on with trying but we both wanted to be on the birth certificate so much that we decided that, for us, it was the right decision to wait. Would this be a way forward for you? Could you get CPed first and delay your treatment by a month?
Becs x


----------



## floralou

Anybody... 



laurab61 said:


> Sorry I haven't had chance to read through this entire topic....was just wondering if anybody could give any rough ballpark figures as to how much parental responsibility costs, and also how much adoption proceedings cost??
> 
> OH and I were wanting to get our civil partnership next year (have started planning etc etc) but want to start TTC this year....and obviously need to factor in saving up for legal fees if we conceive before we are CP'd.
> 
> I know it varies from place to place...but I can't find any prices anywhere so dont know whether we're looking at £100 or £10,000.


----------



## BecsW

Hi BizzE3-All we needed to take along was our civil partnership certificate, so I guess if you're talking about a matter of days they may be hard pushed to prove that the conception was prior to your CP. But I am just guessing here, it is possible I suppose that as you got CPed the same month your baby was conceived and the registrar realises how close the dates must be the registrar may ask for some info from your clinic about insem dates  ? I doubt it though. I think it is worth asking NatGamble (fertility lawyer who answers Qs on this thread). I think if it was me I would push back the tx 1 month then you won't have anything to worry about re the birth certificate.

Laura, sorry I don't know the costs involved for PR or adoption but didn't want to read and run. My partner and I decided that, for us, it was really important that we were both on the birth certificate so we got CPed first.

Very best of luck to both of you
Becs x


----------



## lucky2010

Hi Laura,


Getting PR costs nothing. My partner and I were civil partnered when we conceived our son but it was before the law change so  she had to get PR for him which was pretty straight forward. If you conceive now you can both be named on the birth certificate anyway if you are CP'd at conception or if you are not CP's and conceive through a clinic.


Good luck.


Rach


----------



## floralou

Hey Rach - thanks for your reply.

It seems a lot more straight forward going through a clinic, but unfortunately we'll never be able to afford to do that so are inseming at home with a known donor. I know that means we'll have to go through the adoption process rather than OH being named on the birth certificate, because we won't be CP'd until next year.

Just trying to work out how much more money we need to budget for...

Laura x


----------



## kedmo1

Check out the stonewall guide to lesbian pregnancy, you can download it for free from stonewall site. Its a helpful booklet and its easy to understand the legal information.
http://www.stonewall.org.uk/at_home/parenting/3463.asp

You can also just get CP really easily, you can just sign cp document for about £50, if monies tight and then have a cermony later on when you have cash. Just an idea to make birth very thing easier?

Good luck

/links


----------



## Blondie80

I have a very quick question and would appreciate some guidance;

My wife and I married abroad (I am English, she is American) and I know that our marriage is the equivalent to a CP, here. 

For us to both be named on the birth certificate, do we show our marriage certificate, as its the equivalent of a CP. Or Do we need to 'register' our marriage here - is there such a thing?

Thank you,
Blondie80


----------



## welshginge

Good question, I don't know I'm afraid but hopefully someone will. x


----------



## motos

The UK will recognise people in a same-sex marriage from abroad as being in a civil partnership here. I don't know if that means that you can just turn up with your overseas marriage certificate, I assume so - I suspect the Google Encyclopedia will be able to tell youl


----------



## NatGamble

Yep that's right - no need to register an overseas marriage here: it simply is a civil partnership under English law, and you just need to take your foreign marriage certificate along.

Natalie


----------



## Blondie80

Thanks Natalie; much appreciated.


----------



## jash

Could anyone help please?
I have had blast and in the middle of my 2 ww. If (fingers crossed it is) I test +ve, can my girlfriend go onto our child's birth certificate as the other parent?
We had the procedure done in the Ukraine by both egg and sperm donors that remain anon forever.

Thank you
Jackie.


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Jackie

If you were civil partners at the time of your embryo transfer, then you can both go on the birth certificate (you just need to show your CP to the registrar when registering the birth).  If not, then you can go on the birth certificate as the mother but your partner can't go in the other slot.  You'll need to make an application after the birth to make her a parent - it's a pretty straightforward process but does take some time.

Fingers crossed for your TWW!

Natalie


----------



## tinabean

I have a question/ need advice.  We have a donor from co-parents.net. We are happy with him and are assured by him that he would not want any contact with any potential child. Should/can we get him to sign something to say this? We are CP'd so are also assuming my wife could be on birth cert too?


----------



## NatGamble

Hi tinabean

It would do absolutely no harm, but isn't essential.  If you are civil partners then you will be the legal parents (named on the birth certificate) and your donor will not be your child's legal father.  That is the case whether you have something in writing with him or not, and it completely excludes his financial responsibility.  

You can never completely exclude the donor's potential rights to apply to court for contact in the future (and the court has very flexible powers to give rights to any adult if they consider it in the child's best interests)  but your donor would have an uphill struggle, and would have to get the court's permission to apply.  Having something in writing might be helpful if this were to happen, though every case is unique and there isn't a lot of previous court history of dealing with these types of cases at the moment, so it's difficult to say how much it might help you.

I hope that's helpful, although sorry it isn't more clear cut!

Natalie


----------



## tinabean

Thanks Natalie - you have put our minds at rest.


----------



## SANFRAN06

we are still waiting for my wife to adopt our sons! they are 4 in august and we applied to herts social services 3 years and 2 mnths ago! Our best friends had a baby 3 mnths ago and they are both named on the birth certificate. Surely it should be easier for us to do  now laws have changed


----------



## NatGamble

That's terrible SanFran.  Why don't you whack your application into the court and get a judge to set a timetable?  You are only legally required to wait three months after notifying your local authority before you can make your court application, and it sounds like you've waited quite long enough already!


----------



## kamelahee33

I know that a lot of the questions answered / asked here are according to UK laws but do you or anyone else for that matter, possibly have a reference to a lawyer in Frankfurt Germany? I am American my wife is Germany and I will be the one to carry. We are married here legally or as they call "lebenspartnershaft" / life partnership. However as most know US does not recognize us at all (bi national couples). We need help in finding legal advice because parentage is not automatic. Before we even start making any appointments at any clinics, we would like to have all our legal affairs in order to ensure our family is secure on all counts. I have looked at the embassy / consulate website and it is not that helpful nor emailing helped me. Just a bunch of links I have read a thousand times.   Looking forward to any feedback


----------



## NatGamble

Hi Kamalahee33


I have sent you a PM with some info.


Best of luck


Natalie


----------



## kamelahee33

Thank you very much!


----------



## CherryMarie

Hi all, 
I was after a little advice as I'm a little confused as to how our situation would work legally. My partner and I are starting the process of becoming parents. We have been to a consultation at a fertility clinic and have been approved for treatment. We are being treated as a couple however, we are engaged but not CP'd yet. We are using a known donor for our treatment (a single gay man) who would like to have some slight involvement with any resulting child, and are currently getting him set up as a donor at the clinic. 

Now we are slightly confused as to where my partner and the KD stand legally as the second parent. Obviously I want my partner to be the legal second parent as we are intending to have a lovely family together but KD has mentioned he would like his name on the birth certificate so baby would 'know where s/he came from' but I understand there are certain consent forms that we will have to sign before treatment. Will the KD then be seen as any other donor or could he ask to be seen as the 2nd legal parent??


----------



## Candy76

CherryMarie, I hope someone who knows what they are talking about will respond to your post.

It is my understanding that a child can only have two parnets. So, if your KD is named on the birth certificate, then your DP can have some sort of rights - I suppose similar to grandparents - but I think in order for DP to be the second parent at some point in the future, your KD would need to give up its parent role. No idea how this works. Sounds tricky and seems completely pointless to me if you know the core family will be you, DP and kid with KD having a slight involvement.

As you say, when you go through a clinic, they will give you consent papers to sign. DP can be named on the birth certificate if you and your DP state that you both intent for DP to be the legal parent. See below link:

http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/children-conceived-1/5/

I think if I was you I would want you and DP to be on the birth certificate so you both know where you stand legally and to come to some sort of arrangement with KD.

If you are happy with your donor, you would of cause tell your kid where it came from. And being a lesbian couple there is no pretending you just go pregnant by yourselves. So, this doesn't sound like a good enough reason for naming KD on birth certificate. Plus it has huge legal implication.

/links


----------



## ♥JJ1♥

My friend was a kd and copatents to a f/f civil partnershiped couple and the two women had to be named on birth cert and have parental responsibility he has the child stay over twice a week.


----------



## CherryMarie

Thank you Candy76
Initially we had no idea about the implications of KD being named on the certificate, but after reading a lot online and from your answer we don't think it would be work all the legal hassle of naming him, if we were always intending for DP & I to be full time parents albeit with a little involvement from KD. 

Thanx again


----------



## NatGamble

Hi CherryMarie

I know I'm going to risk sounding like a real doom-and-gloom lawyer, but your situation rings some alarm bells. We've dealt with a few very nasty known donor disputes where the donor said he would like to be named on the birth certificate, and it was a warning sign that actually he wanted to be acknowledged as having a role/status within the family unit which was much more significant than the mothers envisaged. Known donor dispute issues tend to revolve around the status everyone has in relation to each other, rather than how much contact the donor has, so if you have settled the regularity of contact it can seem like things have been agreed when in fact they haven't at all.

I would think very carefully about what you put on the birth certificate as this has huge legal implications. However, even more importantly I would take this as an opportunity to think very critically about whether you really all want the same things (as far as you can tell at this stage). It may be worth putting in place a written agreeement, or getting a third party involved in some way to help you plan this thoroughly. If there are fault lines, this will identify them.

Have a read of this: http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/Known-donor-disputes/92/

Sorry if this sounds negative - I really hope this works brilliantly for you as so many known donor arrangements do. I have just seen a few which have gone horifically wrong and it sounds like yours could potentially have the same seeds. I really hope I'm wrong!

Natalie


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## LucyandSuz

Hello, I'm just wondering if anyone can give me a little bit of advice. I am quite new to all this and am honestly a little confused. My partner and I are hoping to start trying to conceive with a known donor in the next few months, we have started chatting to a donor online and he seems decent and genuine and we are planning to meet with him soon to start talking things through. 

We are in a civil partnership and have been for nearly two years and we want my partner to be named on the birth certificate. We have told our prospective donor that we want him to have no contact with child and that we want my partner to be on the birth certificate and he is happy with all of this and obviously we will be conceiving through AI. Is it advisable to have a donor agreement signed and if so where can I get one, also would we need to make a will incase anything were to happen during childbirth?

I have been told that as long as your in a civil partnership and conceive through AI that the non bio mother can automatically go on the birth certificate but how can you prove that this was the case when you register the birth of a child? Wouldn't you need a donor agreement to prove it? 

Thanks
LucyandSuz


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## welshginge

I thought it was only if you use a clinic? I don't know but I'm sure someone who actually knows will be along soon! Welcome & good luck x


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## theish

Hi All

Just joined the forum and had a question.  My partner and I were thinking of using an Irish clinic although we live in Northern Ireland (UK).  We are using a unknown donor from a euro sperm bank but want to know if we will face issues getting both our names on the birth certificate if we use an Irish clinic (not UK)? We are not in a civil partnership.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!


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## NatGamble

Hi guys and sorry for the late reply - just spotted your messages!

Lucy and Suz - If you are civil partners, the register office generally doesn't need anything more than a copy of your civil partnership certificate to record you both on the birth certificate, and you don't need a donor agreement for this. The value of putting a donor agreement in place (if you don't have a sperm bank donor) is to be absolutely clear about the status you will all have and how you intend things to work in practice - it can help avoid disputes later on. There is more information about this at http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/page/lesbian_knowndonation/7/ which you may find helpful.

Theish - If you are not in a civil partnership, you can only both go on the birth certificate if you conceive at an HFEA licensed clinic in the UK and sign the right forms before conception. If you conceive in Ireland this won't work, so you would then need to go through a post birth adoption process to acquire parenthood for the non birth mum. Alternatively, you could register as civil partners before you conceive - it then doesn't matter where in the world you conceive and you can both go on the UK birth certificate.

Natalie


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## Beebo

I have just found this forum - wish I had seen it earlier!

I am 37 and have been with my female partner 7 years. We are not civil partners. We have been ttc with a mutual long-standing gay male friend for 2 years. After much discussion over many months the agreement was that myself and the donor/father would be the legal parents, with my partner to have parental responsibility and the child to stay with the father 1-2 nights per week. What we would have wished for ideally would for all three of us to be legal parents, but the law does not allow this.

We tried to conceive at home with AI for a year and then went to a fertility clinic when this did not work. The clinic insisted that my partner and I sign forms that she and I would be the legal parents - if we did not, we would not be eligible for NHS treatment. This is not what we wanted, but we had no choice and signed. It was very frustrating to be coerced by the clinic into signing something which went against our wishes and agreement. We considered complaining or challenging the clinic's policy, but frankly time is not on our side and we decided just to get on with it. I have now had 4 failed IUIs and have just had one ICSI, waiting for the result.

Our plan is still for the father to be named on the birth certificate. I do not know whether this will make the father a legal parent and cancel out the signed consent for my partner and I to be the legal parents, or whether the signed consent cancels out the parental responsibility which normally comes with the father being on the birth certificate. 

Can anyone shed any light? It's a legal minefield!


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## ♥JJ1♥

i can't help you but if they are correct in that you would be asking for treatment on the NHS with a known donor and yourself and this isn't permitted as it is ususally treatment for couples.  I have a known donor and have paid for all my treatment- did they permit you to use your donors fresh sperm or did he have to freeze it- they should have done under HFEA rules. I am sure that Natalie will be aline soon to advise you but can you add him to the birth cert if conceived through the clinic?
Also not sure in your original plan if your partner can get parental responsibility- my friend donated to a civil partnershipped couple they both have to be named on the birth cert, even though he wanted to and they had agreed to, and he has no parental responsibility etc.

Good luck with your 2ww


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## Beebo

Thanks for reply JJ1. Exactly, the clinic wild have seen me as single if we had not signed the consent forms for my partner to be the other legal parent - but I am not single! My partner and I live together, will be joint primary carers, attended all appointments together etc. Father did have to use frozen sperm.

With your friends, they did have no choice because they were in a civil partnership. We had purposely postponed having a civil partnership because of this issue (still don't have one).

It seems unfair that there is not greater legal flexibility given the disparate types of  alternative families out there. Either there should be provision for more than two legal parents, or clinics should allow the three (or more) prospective co-parents to choose which two of the three will be legal parents. In our case there were various reasons for us to come to our agreement - one being that the donor father is from an ethnic minority/different country, and us wanting the child to be eligible for a passport from his county of origin.

Re our original plan, my partner could get parental responsibility through a shared residence order.

Don't know if we would technically be allowed to put the father's name of the birth certificate now, but how would anyone at the registry office know? We would just turn up to register together....


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## ♥JJ1♥

As a single person you are not entitled to NHS treatment in most PCT's.
Good luck hope that you find a way to resolve your issues.

L x


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## NatGamble

Hi there and sorry for not having replied sooner.


I can't really comment on the impact all this has on NHS funding but I can explain how the parenthood stuff works.  If you have signed the parenthood election forms at a clinic (and not withdrawn your election) before embryo transfer, then you and your partner will be the legal parents of your child.  In practice, there will be nothing to alert this to the registrar if you just go along and register the birth and tell him/her that your donor is the biological father, so it is highly likely you would be able to get a birth certificate showing you and your donor.  However, you will be making a false declaration of your donor's parentage, since he is not the legal father and is not entitled to be named on the birth certificate.  The birth certificate will also not reflect the true legal position, so could be open to challenge at any time e.g. if you and your partner separate or any of you fall out.  Things could get very messy later if there are any problems or if you want to take further steps to secure your partner's PR (e.g. by applying to court for a residence order).


If this cycle doesn't work out, I would suggest that you set things up in the way you want for next time (and don't sign the parenthood election forms).  Your clinic should not be forcing you to dictate parentage in a particular way in order to access NHS funding - what a recipe for disaster!


I would also always recommend putting something in writing between you where what you intend doesn't fit with the underlying legal position (ideally with legal advice, but in any event something).  It sounds like you have worked really hard to agree everything, which is always the very best advice, so do make sure you have it all recorded somewhere.


I hope that makes sense.


Natalie


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## NatGamble

Hi Porsche

Whether your partner will be your child's legal parent depends entirely on the paperwork you have signed at the clinic before IUI/ embryo transfer. If you have both already signed the parenthood election forms (which it sounds like you have), that means that either of you has until conception to give notice withdrawing your consent (there is a procedure for this). You can't withdraw your consent to your partner being a parent after you have conceived so this is something you need to make a decision on now.

As to the donor sperm, that's a tricky question. Technically neither of you 'owns' the sperm and only the donor has an absolute right to dictate how it is used. In practice, this will come down to negotiation with your clinic, and it can be a delicate issue to handle.

Feel free to contact us if you'd like some more specific advice on your options and what to do.

Natalie

Read more: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=300410.0#ixzz2ILGaT4wp


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## Jowo

EDIT - retrospectively chosen to delete post


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## NatGamble

Nope - you just need to take your CP certificate to the birth registration.
There are some issues for non CPs who conceive outside the UK, but it's not a problem for CPs


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## Beebo

Natalie - thanks for your advice. 

After a failed IVF and a three month break, we tried again with AI at home. Got the shock of my life to get a positive test yesterday.

Hopefully this by-passes the whole legal quagmire the clinic was dropping us in... We are now free to arrange our own affairs!


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## NatGamble

Great news Beebo - many congratulations!


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## starrysky

Hi Natalie,
My good friend is in a lesbian partnership (not civil partners), but is seperating from her partner.  She is birth mum to 3 children concieved via IVF after April 2009, partner is definately not on any of the birth certificates as parent, unsure about any paperweork signed at clinic but I have told my friend to check (the first child definatley nothing was signed at clinic) the other 2 is uncertain whether anything was signed.
My friend seems to think that if partner wants PR (she wants this too and would sign for her to have it) that they have to be civil partners to apply, that really didn't sound right to me but don't want to confuse her even more by saying something that I am not totally sure of either.  Any words of wisdom?  If she wants specialist advice could she come to you via phone/internet and how much would an initial bit of advice cost?
Thanks


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## NatGamble

Hi Starrysky


I've just answered your post on the Ask a Lawyer page too so I hope you don't mind me repeating myself!


The questions of financial responsibility, parental responsibility and contact are all separate.  Your friend's ex will only be financially responsible where she is a legal parent and that will apply in respect of any children conceived after 6 April 2009 where they both signed the parenthood election forms at the clinic (irrespective of whether your friend's partner is on the birth certificate).


Whether she has parental responsibility depends on whether she was named on the birth certificate.  If so, she will have PR, if not then as a non civil partner she can only get via a residence order or adoption (both of which are potentially tricky, although possible, after a separation, depending on whether your friend supports it).


It's complex stuff this, but we would be happy to advise your friend on her current position and options.  It's well worth being clear about how everything interrelates, since she could easily give away joint PR without affecting the financial position and that might not be the best course for her, depending on the circumstances.  We charge a fixed fee for initial advice (covering a meeting and a letter) - if you email me at [email protected] I can give you some further details to pass on.


Best wishes


Natalie


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## rainbows_treasure

Hi im having a panic as we have signed a form at the clinic so we are both down on the birth certificate as parents but dont have a copy of this atm and are not married but my friend who lives down south has been told from her clinic for a same sex couple to have both names on the birth certificate you must be married so Im a little confused and worried about what right and wrong as far as I was aware what we had been told was rite but now im unsure....please help....sorry if this has already been discussed in this forum xx


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## single.mummy

Hi 
I am not sure what your friend is referring to, however, I can tell you that my partner and I are not married and we are both down as legal parents on our boys birth certificates (not on our daughter's as she was born before the change in law). We also went through a clinic and signed all the relevant paperwork. I am not sure whether your friend is referring  to if you get pregnant using a known donor (outside of a clinic), but you should have no problems at all. Also when we registered the boys the registrar did not want to see any paperwork, we just clarified the situation and with DS2 it was very straight forward, I think they are getting much more used to it now. (more of a time consuming process with DS1 as the law had only recently changed and we were the first couple that the registrar had dealt with!)
Good luck with it all.


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## rainbows_treasure

Thanku   so much 2mummies was starting to think we were goin have to get married in the next few months before our next ivf treatment we do want to get married but are hoping to have a wedding and naming ceremony together had a panic on still dont get why her clinic say one thing and ours the other but as long as I know dp can be named on birth certificate im fine with that..... now ive  just gotta fall pregnant    xx


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## juicy10

That I believe used to be the case, our first child doesnt have us both on the birth certificate and we were married but it was before the bill was passed in 2009. Now if you conceive as a couple you can both legally be put on the birth certificate whether married or not. Makes life that bit easier as my wife and I had to go through months of interviews in order for her to adopt her own child. Good luck with everything but just listen to the girls at LWC they know what their talking about and a great bunch of people


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## NatGamble

This is a bit of a late reply, but I thought it might be helpful to clarify anyway. You can both go on the birth certificate if:

1) You are civil partners (or married overseas) at the time you conceive - this applies as long as you conceive artificially, and so covers home insemination as well as clinic treatment (i.e. anything which is not conceiving through sex) anywhere in the world.

2) You are not civil partners but you conceive at a licensed clinic in the UK and, before you do, both sign the relevant 'parenthood election' forms (currently HFEA Forms WP and PP). This is restricted to treatment at a clinic, and to treatment in the UK. If you conceive by home insemination or abroad then you won't both be parents automatically.

These rules came into effect for conceptions on or after 6 April 2009 - before that only the birth mum was a legal parent.

There's more info about all this at http://www.nataliegambleassociates.co.uk/knowledge-centre/donor-conception-law-for-lesbian-mums which may be helpful too.

Hope that clears up any confusion though.


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## SANFRAN06

We eventually became legal parents to our boys today after 5 years!!!! The judge in court was so lovely and really involved the boys and made them feel like it was fun!! This step parent adoption has Been so long mainly due to Herts social services being So short staffed. Eventually we had an amazingly supportive social worker and my wife can now legally in all respects be the mama she has always been and will always be xxxx thanks nat for you advice many years ago !


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## NatGamble

Yay! That's such fantastic news - many congratulations


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## rainbows_treasure

Hi Natalie my partner and I are currently doing IVF and im wondering what form I need that nominates my partner as the other childs parent have got so many forms as this is our 5 try of fertility treatment praying it works thanks again x


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## NatGamble

Hi Rainbows


Sorry I've only just seen your message and this reply may be way too late now! For anyone else too, this thread has got massive and I'm not fab at checking so if I ever don't respond, try posting a specific message on Ask a Lawyer.


The forms you need (assuming you aren't married/CPs) are HFEA forms WP (for birth mum) and PP (for non birth mum) and both need to be signed after counselling and before IUI/ embryo transfer.


Best of luck with you treatment (or hopefully by now with pregnancy!).


Natalie


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