# First time mum at 70??



## encore (May 27, 2004)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24769549-401,00.html



My first thoughts: "too old".

ok, so shoot me... 

/links


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

Ive just read this on yahoo news and sorry but i find it disgusting! To become a mother at the age of 70, to me is selfish! She'll be lucky to see her daughter grow up to be a teenager! U'd think that that people carrying out IVF would say NO! Im all for women receiving IF tx but that's just too old!


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## MAL. (Mar 19, 2007)

I also think it is selfish


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

Wow - it seems quite barmy BUT I guess it really does bring hope!

The best bit was this:
"Ms Devi's husband, aged 72, had also wed his wife's sister after 10 years of his first marriage did not result in children. His second wife also failed to become pregnant." 

Yeah, so maybe it wasn't your wifes fault...

Then someone in the comments actually says

"None of us are guaranteed a tomorrow. We can die as easily at 25 as we can at 70 (think vehicle accidents, acts of God, misfortune)."

Erm.. really. Soo.. 

A little googling and I found that the average life expectancy in Haranya is 64 for men and 65 for women... (and not 25 lol)


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## trollmor (Feb 18, 2004)

Of course it's selfish. They're doing it for the social stigma to improve    

Then again...
...aren't we all having children for selfish reasons?


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

ooh trollmor - now you're being controversial! 

In some ways you're right, maybe we're driven by a biological need or emotional need to have children - but once they're here being a good parent involves a hell of a lot of selflessness and sacrifice.

Do you mean selfish in terms of the environment?

My dad won't support me being pregnant because thinks no more new children should be born as he say's it's a drain. Which makes me feel sad of course but he's entitled to his opinion.


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## trollmor (Feb 18, 2004)

Dominique - that is rather sad about your dad. I'm sure he'll change his opinion once his grandchild is born though. Don't you think?

I totally agree that once you're a parent you're anything BUT selfish. I just mean that our intentions to have a child are normally completely selfish. We want our genes to carry on, we want a child to love, to fulfill that emptiness that I suppose is biological as you say. 

I would love a second child, but this time for Lewis' sake more than mine. Having a sibling is so fulfilling. However, I have put my age-limit at 40, so that only gives me another 2 years...

xxx


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Too old, did the couple think of the emotional damage which'll be done to the child cos of them dying while the child is young. My brother died when I was 7 and it screwed me up well and truly made worse by the brats who bulllied who bullied me about his death.


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

I think there's a hell of a lot of difference with having a child in ur 20's 30's & 40's then there is at giving birth at 70! That is just pure & utter selfishness! Is the child going to having a childhood or be a carer for her parents?! 

I remember the Indian couple that had twins not so long ago following IVF tx & the reason behind it was b/c the 75 year old husband wanted a son, so they sold their farm etc to pay for the tx. After the twins were born they admitted they couldn't afford to look after them. 

I personally think that the clinic that carries out IF tx should say NO! Im all for people having treatment but where do u draw the line?!


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## Orange Smartie (Dec 30, 2007)

I hope that the mother and child are well and healthy.

I can't comment on whether this is a good or bad thing because I don't know the whole story. I have no idea of their family support, economic circumstances etc. 

This kind of sensational gutter press reeks of inherent racism.  I wonder how differently it would be reported if it was an affluent European or American.  Very differently I suspect.

I also find it interesting that there are women on this site who are in their 50's having children and I guess because we know them in some sense (through their posting and sharing on this site) that it's ok then.


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## MAL. (Mar 19, 2007)

Honestly I don't think it is a matter or race, it certainly is not from my point of view. From the news reports I have watched today race does not seem to be the issue at all that has not been mentioned, just the age.


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Friends of mine at church have a DD age 4.5. The dad is mid 50's. If someone has a LO early-mid 50's, I don't have a problem as there's a good chance these days that they'll live until the child is an adult, yes the child may well have to cope with 1 or both parents dying while they're late teens/early 20's but they're unlikely to have to face the emotional trauma of losing 1 or both parents during their childhood.


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## encore (May 27, 2004)

YogaPrincess said:


> I hope that the mother and child are well and healthy.
> 
> I can't comment on whether this is a good or bad thing because I don't know the whole story. I have no idea of their family support, economic circumstances etc.
> 
> ...


I can honestly say that whatever the race, my first thoughts would be exactly the same. As forthe reporting there was a less than positive reaction (if my memory serves me correct) about an italian woman in her 60's....was it 67? who had an IVF baby a few years ago. And my thoughts were the same.

But its interesting about the double standards we have. Well, I'll put my hand up and say I have them anyway.....I didnt give a second's thought to the age of the father, but I was more focussed on the mother. I don't know. Men can 'naturally' have children well into their twighlight years. Women can't. And while I do wonder why women are attracted to men who are much, much older, I don't think its strange that they have babies with them. eg. Catherine ZJ, and michael douglas.

BUT if their ages were reversed, and she'd had his babies when he was in his 30's and she was pushing 70...well I would think that was just plain wierd. Maybe its because we are wired to accept some biological fact that mothers are the ones who should be available to nurture their child?

i haven't 'met' any of the mums to be who are in their 50's. I have to admit that I do balk at the thought of having children in ones 50's. Perhaps the reaction isnt quite the same as the thought of giving birth at 70 but...

The next obvious question is 'where do you draw the line'?

My answer? I havent a clue!


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## Orange Smartie (Dec 30, 2007)

It's a very interesting debate.  I personally get very angry about the HFEA's rules and regulations re no of embryos for example. I am capable of deciding what's right for me and don't need an official body to tell me what I can and can't do.

Likewise, I trust in my own ability to know when it's time to give up my fertility journey.  So this lady has the right to decide what's right for her in my humble opinion... Would I have a child in my 70's...er no but I don't have the right to impose that on anyone else. 

But it is interesting that we focus on the mothers, Des O'Connor had a child in his 70's and not a sniff of anything wrong with that, infact I think it was more like a pat on the back for the "virile old dog"!  

Madonna is talking about another biological child with her new man - she's in her 50's now.

Good debate!


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

Personally - I think I do have a right to object to a decision people make if there is *clear evidence* to show that the child will suffer greatly because of that decision. An extreme example would be a parent who neglects their child (i think it is quite right that a govenment agency steps in to help the child). When parents choose to have a child beyond the normal life expectancy age then it does seem selffish as we know that no child would 'choose' to have their parents die during their childhood. We don't know for sure though, so I would welcome research on this, what is the actual impact of being ophaned? What if the child is also well supported by extended family (which in the article it suggests there is)?

This debate is really touching on so many things - I'm a lesbian and many people would think it was wrong, selfish, immoral and unfair for me to have a child and raise it with a female partner. I am VERY glad that they don't have a right to prevent me from doing so. However, if research backed up those claims and children were genuinly badly affected by having gay parents then I would have decided against having children rather than just deciding that I 'needed/wanted' a child at any cost to the child.


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

YogaPrincess said:


> This kind of sensational gutter press reeks of inherent racism. I wonder how differently it would be reported if it was an affluent European or American. Very differently I suspect.


 I would just like to say that MY views on this has NOTHING to do with race, religion or anything else. For a start i have a mixed race younger brother (English/Asian) A niece & nephew (English/ Jamaican) and my partner has Irish & Jamaican blood so i doubt very much i could be seen as ''racist''

But the whole idea of a women giving birth at the age of 70 is wrong! What are the chances of a 70yo English woman being given IVF tx in this country?!

Do u honestly think the parents of this child will live to see their daughter reach her teens?! i doubt it x


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## sallywags (Jun 27, 2005)

I also don't think that this is about race (my initial response was 'eek'! before i read the article and knew where this couple were from), and 70 is much too old.

An ex of mine was pretty traumatised about his dad dying when he was in his childhood as he was a much older father - and that was only late 50's/60's, so the chances of this child beign orphaned when very young is pretty high.

Also, i don't know what their general state of health is, but by nature, your body is not at it's best in your 70's, so although there is the odd miracle 80 year old still running marathons, i suspect that the effect of a) having and b) nurturing a baby full time in your 70s will most certainly take its toll on this family.  I suppose you could also suggest that it could help keep them young?! (that was the excuse i used when dh suggested that 45 was too old to be a daddy again!)

it doesn't feel right, and is not the same as having children in your 40's and 50's.  I hope the extended family will be seen as sufficient by this little girl and that she will stil have a loving and supportive upbringing.


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## Orange Smartie (Dec 30, 2007)

Inherent as in the *reporting * not the comments on this site.

As for a child losing a parent, I can see that these parents are more likely to die while the child is young (although not certainly) however life can't be guaranteed for anyone. I had a friend who died suddenly while her young daughter was at school. Totally unexpected.

Bottom line is that I think its wrong to judge and comment when I don't know the ins and outs of this couples life, situation etc.

.


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

Yogaprincess would you have a child at the age of 70 given the chance?!


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## encore (May 27, 2004)

YogaPrincess said:


> Bottom line is that I think its wrong to judge and comment when I don't know the ins and outs of this couples life, situation etc.


I'm not sure if I agree with that in this case. People comment and have opinions on reported situations all the time. You would have to be living in la la land if you thought that the papers gave you the whole, unbaised story every time. If you chose not to have an opinion unless you knew the ins and outs of every story in the papers, you'd just never have an opinion!

I agree with sally in that it "just doest feel right". Normally I'd try to be a bit more eloquent when putting forward my argument...but i'm struggling here.

I guess I think that at the age of 70, it is impossible for a woman to get pregnant naturally. And there is a reason for that. I mean, here is a woman who, under different circumstances, would be admitted to the geriatric ward, not the labour ward. This is an _old _ woman.


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## Lesley08 (May 4, 2008)

I think this is an interesting debate and one which brings up the conflict between the childs rights and the parents rights but also the conflict between the individual and society. Socially I think this is wrong as there is little doubt that this child will have to be supported by someone else be it extended family or not, I also think that there should be a cut off point we are not simply entitled to everything we want in life.As a side issue it also raises big questions about why people want to have children so late in life. There is little chance of any woman getting pg naturally past 55 so I guess for me that would be it although I personally think past 45 is too old. 

Lesley xx


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## Cate1976 (Oct 29, 2007)

Dominique, I don't have a problem with you and your DP having a LO or LO's.  So long as a child is fed, clothed properly, has stable loving home and the education that's right for them then it shouldn't be  a problem if parents are gay or lesbian.


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## Jane D (Apr 16, 2007)

The sad thing about these stories is that they do not educate the non fertility world.  Some people may even think a 70 year old may be able to ovulate.  It could raise expectation if a story does not include the line - may possibly be donor egg conceived.
Interesting to hear about a certain pop star wanting a bio child with new lover.  Not being ageist, but not sure how good egg quality would be at 50 if you know what I mean?    Think I am ok saying that as iam 38 and have the ovaries of a 50 year old.


Jane


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## Damelottie (Jul 26, 2005)

What I would find interesting is what the lady in her 70's views of being a 'parent' is. Presumably she believes it is more about giving life. I don't know that obviously - just making as assumption. Its just that my personal views of being a parents extends much much further than birth and the first few years. It goes a long way - to being there for my children when they hopefully have their own family. Needing me if they ever get divorced etc etc etc. I've even had concerns before that I'M too old at 39 to be there if they ever need me for childcare etc.
I want to be a mum for as much of my childrens lives as I possible can. I don't want to miss a thing.

Love

LL xx


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## Dominique123456 (Jul 12, 2008)

Aw lottie, that sounds so sweet. You'll be such a lovely mummy


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## Sammysmiles (Sep 8, 2008)

I felt the need to wade in here, you are right Yogaprincess.... Des O'Connor should not be allowed to have children in his 70's nor should he release any more records! 

I am surprised that all his time on the sunbed hasnt affect his little swimmers. He is my next bet after DH, well Des or the Lotto lout Mikey Carroll. They seem to have never ending supplies.


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## Damelottie (Jul 26, 2005)

sammysmiles said:


> nor should he release any more records!


I love that


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## Rhidic (Aug 10, 2008)

I have to say I agree with Rachel.  Because I have no idea of family support, extended family, etc., I can't say whether this is a good or a bad choice for the mother, father or child.  Circumstances may be very different from mine...

My own circumstances would not be supportive if I were 70--and I'm pretty sure that at 70 I wouldn't want to give birth to a child, but that's my opinion/experience and I wouldn't want to impose that on another.


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## Chedza (Jun 14, 2008)

Just wanted to say that i agree with YogaPrincess in terms of the issue of race being brought into it.... extended family would take care of the child in the event of parents passing away..... whilst this might be NOT ok for us in our society /cultural norms.... in Africa (I can only speak from my own expereince) this happens a lot ..... there is much more of a collective/community response to bringing children up. I can also say that I agree with Yoga Princess in terms of judging ... especially women... I dont reckon I can judge someone and their situation ..... all I know is I know how much it hurts when you cannot have your own child...
Chedza


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## Orange Smartie (Dec 30, 2007)

sammysmiles said:


> I felt the need to wade in here, you are right Yogaprincess.... Des O'Connor should not be allowed to have children in his 70's nor should he release any more records!
> 
> I am surprised that all his time on the sunbed hasnt affect his little swimmers. He is my next bet after DH, well Des or the Lotto lout Mikey Carroll. They seem to have never ending supplies.


PMSL....

xxx


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## Sammysmiles (Sep 8, 2008)

Yoga princess, I am glad you laughed! As soon as I had posted it I thought 'uh oh, its a serious issue and I stroll in with my Des O'Connor comment'  

TX has sent me loopy.

My point of veiw on this particular story is different cultures, different countries, religions etc are something we dont understand. Villages are like families which is a great thing so as long as the little one is loves and nurtured that is all that matters.

BUT dont get me started on the fame hungry pregnant man, I am already having that debate on another thread!


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

*


shelly38 said:



I just wanted to say that after trying to conceive for 50 years, this couple's baby is long awaited and I'm sure will be much loved.
Unlike many babies created after a late-night drunken fumble between teenagers - poor baby P springs to mind.
We none of us know how long our lives will be either - my 1st husbands dad died at age 40 when he was only 13 - so having children young doesn't mean you'll be around to see them grow up.

Shelly

Click to expand...

I'd just like to point out that Baby P's mum was not a teenage mum, I work with teenage mums, MOST of whom turn out to be great mums. I do find it strange that people would want to have children aged 70 , but then age is a number and it depends how they are feeling physically and emotionally and are they able to look after a baby?
When I read this article I was confused as to how it was making me feel...I have faced many obstacles while I went through the IVF journey as I am a big girl and often was told that it was the cause of my infertility (not true).

I was raised by my grandmother as my mum had a busy career as a teacher and hardly saw my father as he was in the Navy , and in turn when I had my DD 14 years ago, my mum was the main source of my childcare as I continued working....so my point is children get raised by extended families all the time and in some cultures (as is in mine) that is perfectly normal and healthy. I just feel sorry for this woman as I am not sure why it took them so long to get to IVF?! Money? Family pressure? ignorance about what treatments available to her?

Good luck to them it's what I say *


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## Sammysmiles (Sep 8, 2008)

shelly38 said:


> I just wanted to say that after trying to conceive for 50 years, this couple's baby is long awaited and I'm sure will be much loved.
> Unlike many babies created after a late-night drunken fumble between teenagers - poor baby P springs to mind.
> We none of us know how long our lives will be either - my 1st husbands dad died at age 40 when he was only 13 - so having children young doesn't mean you'll be around to see them grow up.
> 
> Shelly


Shelly see my signature, I was pregnant at 19 and didnt have a stable home life at that moment (student) but my child was and is very well looked after. Myself and my ex have always been supportive of each other and DS and he is the brightest star in the sky. Lets try not to make assumptions? As i am sure you to have been the victim of them as well and know how hurtful they can be


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

I can understand that after 50 years of ttc this baby is a long awaited miracle but at the end of the day that's not going to help the child any is it! Everyone that has lost a parent at a young age will know this. 

Talking from experience after spending a month in a little village in Pakistan, the health care service isn't that great and that's for the families that CAN afford it but what about the ones that can't?! I can understand the heartache of infertility but i personally wouldn't want to give birth at the age of 70 knowing that ive live pasted the life expectancy which, for a male is 67 years and for a woman 72 years! 

I also think the clinic that carried out the IVF treatment is wrong for doing it! If a woman shows up at the grand age of 80 requesting IVF... would she get it?! If she had money then she properly would and although that may sound ''racist'' its true! Where do u draw the line?! 

I cant help feeling that this child will end up growing up not knowing her parents, and for that i DO feel sorry for her.

Even though i find wrong, As i would if she from this country or any other!  I wish the child the very best!


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Yes where do you draw the line?!
how about this...we live in the western culture  of having lovely NHS on our doorsteps with lots of laws, policies, social services, immunisation, great welfare system,etc etc... and yet we have lots of children (can't remember the exact number) who live below the poverty line. does anyone seem concerned that some of these children's parents go on to have more and more children? no. do they access the FREE health care system? no. Do you tell these parents to stop having babies, what about the children who are born (again in this country) and taken straight into care and their parents go on to have more children ...again who get taken into care. I have a mum of 22 who has just lost her 3rd baby girl to social services. Her children will grow up not knowing their parents.

Everyone who has lost a parent at a young age did not necessarily do so because their parents were old. 

It's not guaranteed this child would have grown up to know her parents if they had had her when they were in their 40's or 50's for various reasons...illness, poor health care as you mentioned, dad may have had to go somewhere else to earn a living, the child would have had to go somewhere else to earn a living for her parents etc etc...


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

At the end of the day u cant stop women falling pregnant in this country or any but i agree with what ur saying about social services, actually no i don't! The social services dont really do there job do they?! we dont need to mention Baby P god bless his soul or any of the other _*215 * _ children that were seriously abused AND killed in 15 months running up to august so dont even begin to praise them or any of the other goverment bodies!!!!!

As for families on the poverty line who have children, do u think they want live on the breadline?! No! Do they choose 2?! No and if u look around where are the poverty areas... Black communities mainly NOT WHITE! and why is that do u think?!

People DON'T PAY to live on the breadline but this 70 year old woman PAID to have ivf treatment and if u ask me the clinic is wrong for carrying it out!

Would a 70 year old woman be given IVF treatment in this country?!


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## chloe99 (Aug 27, 2008)

I know it doesn't change the issue of much older mothers that is being discussed here, but just wanted to add another perspective.  I guess most of the posters on this thread have believed the media when they have stated that the woman is 70?  What you might not know is that even young people (10 yr olds!!) in rural south asian countries do not know how old they are!!  They just don't have birth certificates, and in their societies, knowing your exact age is just not significant.  

The fact that newspapers state she is 70yrs is, I think, rubbish.  She doesn't look anything like a 70 yr old who has lived that life wld look and there is no way that lady is going to know exactly how old she is!

I'm not saying she's not "old" as ages for mothers go, just that we really can't believe what we see in the papers- I would guess maybe mid to late 50s?  In fact, what's to say she actually carried and delivered the baby?  Maybe she really had a surrogate?

Also wanted to chip in on the cultural differences sidein upbringing of children.  The huge difference between this lady's village lifestyle and our western lifestyle cannot be underestimated.  In the UK the loss of a parent in early life would most probably be very traumatising.  In co-child rearing societies, where birth and death are normal parts of everyday life that everyone *literally* participates in (including young children), the emotional and practical impact of the loss of a parent would be absolutely in no way comparable to how a child here would feel.

In fact, I would say that there are a great deal LESS issues with an (alledgedly!!) 70 year old woman in her position having a baby, as compared with a 70 year old English woman living here in the UK.

xx


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

OK at what point did you hear me "praise" anybody? We have all these supposed "government bodies" to help people yet we still have a lot of children being abused and living in poverty.

Please do not tell me where the "poor communities" come from. I am a woman who comes from an ethnic minority background who has faced racism in this country in every shape and form you can or cannot imagine. The BME ( Black and Ethnic minority)communities make up a small percentage of this countries population and yes, the great majority live in impoverished areas, in or out of London. However, when you look at the CHILDREN who are living below the poverty line, the number is more than 3 million children. That means the majority are white, not that their RACE matters!! the point is in 2008, there are a significant number of children living below poverty lines in THIS western "civilised" country.

Do they pay to live on the breadline? unless they were very stupid which I doubt. My point is I don;t think you nor I have any right to judge anybody. If you want to judge the clinic fine, that's their business, choosing to treat whomever they want. but what gives you the right to judge that this couple will be living on the breadline do you know their background??
Would a 70 year old be given treatment in this country? have you asked the clinics?'cos they would have the answer not me!


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## armi (Sep 1, 2007)

I do not know how the woman coped physically with the demands of being pregnant. I ama relatively fit 39 year old and I have found it exhausting and been saying pregnancy is a young womans game!!!


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

I think the best thing to do here is agree to disagree. I find this story wrong & the clinic needs a good looking into to for allowing it but i guess money is a powerful thing! besides who am i to judge?! I hope the parents are in good health so this child will have some kind of childhood n not become a carer for her parent/s 
The only way i can look at it is looking at my nan with a new born, shes relatively fit, in good health etc but i dont know how she would cope with the nights and all the other glories being a new parent brings.


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## BABY2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Again, in many cultures it is expected that the children and grandchildren look after their parents grandparents in old age, in many African, Asian, Middle Eastern, South Pacific etc cultures, where as mentioned before by somebody, it's the norm for everyone to lend a hand in raising the child, in turn it is the norm to be a part of helping out to look after the elders of the family/community. This may seem harsh and "loss of teenage years" in this country, but very normal in other cultures.

topkat, I will agree to disagree with you here   , after all this is merely one person's opinion ( I am talking about mine), so I will shake your hand and move on


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## Topkat08 (Jul 23, 2008)

Like i said i wish them all the very best and although i understand the parents need/want for a child i do feel the clinic should ''draw the line'' somewhere but as my dp has said... its their money their life so i have to wish the the very best. What i have said is my opinion which everyone is intitled to be it right or wrong.

Baby2 glad we can agree to disagree and i wish u the very best in ur pregnancy


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