# Death without religion



## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

The subject of death keeps coming up usually in reference to animals and insects, but Wyxling has started asking about when she dies and when I die. I tell her we will always be together, and she says "no Mummy, when you die we won't be together". I have been dreading this. I do not believe in a God or Gods, and don't want to use this as an easy answer. However when she said we wouldn't be together in the future I just said no, Wyxling, Mummy will always be with you. In a sense I do mean that, we leave our mark on our children and what we give them and others in our life is what we leave behind, our legacy for want of a much fuller and probably quite boring explanation, and although as an atheist, death does frighten me if I really think about it, I do really believe that. All a bit much for a very literal three year old who wants to know exactly how Mummy is always going to be with her, and is very, very insecure.

Of course my real concern is that Wyxling is of course worried I will (being, as she has told me many times, _really_ old), die at some point in her forseeable future, because she has no understanding of timescales when we're talking in terms of normal lifespan.

I'm interested as to how people have dealt with the subject of death, without involving religion. Any suggestions appreciated!


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## GERTIE179 (Apr 20, 2005)

I'll be interested in responses too. It's a difficult one isn't it - especially as Wxyling is so inquisitive & bright.
X


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

oof its a tricky one..
I've said, in truth, no-one really knows..but have given in the past lots of options from which they can choose at some point...some people believe in place called heaven and some people believe we come back again eg as butterflies and some people believe&#8230;.blah blah insert whichever other beliefs you know about/deem to be appropriate
we have sort of ended up with them believing your body goes in the ground but your 'spirit' stays alive in this world (in the way you describe leaving your mark on people) and watches out for your loved ones and brings happiness to them in the way of reminders of who you were/ the little things that you liked, like birds or butterflies. Difficult to explain but in the way I feel my Grandmother in me when I am gardening because i have such strong memories of being in her veg patch when i was small. And when I felt very close to my Father last year in France when the camping/chateau visiting stirred up memories..
not sure if that made sense  like I say, its a hard one  

[/size]kj x


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## crazyspaniel (Sep 12, 2012)

Such a tricky subject...

Used the book 'always and forever' by Alan Durant, it's about a group of woodland animals, badger dies and the others are very sad, eventually they realise he lives on in everything around them and their memories of him... Like Kj was saying about her grandmother x

Bit of a tear jerker (for me anyway!)


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## Lollipoppet (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi

Hope you don't mind me replying. I have no experience of adoption but I am a very staunch atheist and have already started pondering how to tackle the subject of death with my two. The way answer would be a religious one...being more scientific and logical without confusing or scaring the child witless is a tough one isn't it.

The following is kinda where my thoughts are if I had to explain it now...but admittedly this is way too old, but maybe you can find a way to adapt?

Firstly if she is a bright cookie you can talk about how student people believe different things...done believe in everyone goes to a lovely place to meet everyone they love and some in believe that that you have another life where you might be a cat or a horse or princess or something.

The best thing I have found so far would also need considerable adaptation, but maybe you can find a way. Think it was written by an American writer Aaron Freeman:

You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly. Amen

I am interested to see if someone else has cracked it yet so looking forward to your responses.


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## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

Thanks for the replies, and interested in any other opinions from adopters or otherwise.  

I am really thinking about how I can start to deal with the issue through stories, and how I talk to her about people from my life who have died and memories of them, but I definitely don't have a plan at the moment, and as with most things with Wyxling, one definitely needs a plan!


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## goldbunny (Mar 26, 2012)

my sister had an imaginary friend as a child, i think the imaginary friend lived on top of the town library. She was perfectly content with this as an idea and had never wondered about the practicalities of such an arrangement. maybe there's somewhere you can say you will be, after you die, that isn't 'heaven' but is somewhere more mundane... even perhaps in the cemetary... you could just say you'll be there and she can visit there and talk to you.  i think small people need very practical obvious solutions to such puzzles.


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## L-J (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi there,


I do not have experience of this in relation to adopted children in particular, but I can tell you what worked for my 4 year old birth daughter.  Around 6 months ago a very close friend of ours, who was really like an extra grandmother to my daughter, died very suddenly and unexpectedly.  This was my daughter's first experience of death, really.  I read up from various sources on how best to discuss it with her, in a vaguely non-religious manner, and one that she would hopefully understand, and I went down the route of saying something like 'sometimes our bodies get worn out or ill, and they stop working'.  Well, this really didn't satisfy my daughter, there were lots and lots of follow up questions, and she was very unsettled by it all.  


My mum, however, had a conversation with her without me around where she said that 'Jxxx has gone to be with the angels' - and that was 100% fine with my daughter!  We have some conversations about where the angels live (in the sky) and if we will all go to be with them (yes) and she seems content.  I think she thinks of angels as being like fairies in some way...... They key thing for her is that Jxxx is safe and being looked after, and that we will all have that as our happy ending........ 


Hope this helps a little for you - these conversations are very difficult, I know!


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## misskitten (Oct 31, 2010)

Hi Wyxie, great thread! 

there is a parenting section which covers bereavement on the British Humanist Association website that might give you some ideas. They have a book list for children too
humanism.org.uk

Missk x


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## kizzi79 (Jan 9, 2009)

As a nurse who worked with families where parents or siblings were dying i find this book really good http://www.littleparachutes.com/book.php?id=107 . It does not focus solely on death, but explains that no matter what they will be loved, the final pages discuss about when we are dead and gone.

This link from winston's wish (a charity specializing in supporting children going through bereavement) http://www.winstonswish.org.uk/talking-about-death/ . 
They suggest It may be best to say something like: 'People have all sorts of beliefs about what happens after someone dies. We know that they can't come back and visit us or ring on the phone. Being dead isn't like being in another country. These are some of the things that people believe - and I believe this - I wonder what you believe? You may change what you believe as you grow older'. This statement being modified using words Wyxling understands and is familiar with.
Hope they help, tough stuff so big hugs, love kiz xx


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## keemjay (Jan 19, 2004)

Another thing..if you get the 'opportunity' to go to a funeral (sorry, difficult to word that right!) take along Wyxling..theres nothing like the actual act of a funeral to cement what it all means. I took DD to one when she was about 4 and she was absolutely fine with it..threw soil down into the grave and said goodbye, I took them both to a dear aunts one when they were 6 and 5 and again they took it all in their stride, they chose a flower to throw in the grave and were sad but not distressed. Last year when their dear Granded died I believe having been to funerals before they were much better prepared for it all, although they were slightly miffed not to be able to throw a flower in as he was being cremated! DD was quite upset at th last moment when she had to walk out and leave Granded in his coffin in the crematorium, but she was appropriately sad and not overly distressed. 


kj x


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## Poppets Mammy (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting thread Wyxie   We've had numerous pet losses this past year (as most of you well know) and with another one anticipated soon I'm interested in helping poppet grieve.  

Great links Kizzi79 - Thanks for sharing

I agree regarding taking children to funerals. I was not allowed to attend my grans funeral when I was 8yrs old and in fact wasn't really involved with her death at all as I suppose my parents thought they were sheltering me - they weren't and I still to this day don't fully understand what happened but it was rather traumatic and something we just don't talk about. I remember feeling frustrated and confused. It's something we discussed during HS and I didn't fully appreciate the negative impact not being allowed to grieve as a child had had on me until we discussed it.


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## GoofyGirl (Apr 1, 2013)

Good thread. The thought had also crossed my mind as to what I will say. 

Personally I find the garden a soure of inspiration, the whole garden is alive. Plant and creatures die in it everyday but the whole garden is alive and remains alive. There's a cycle within it. 
Just feeling the living soil and being around the tiny creatures helps me to see that nothing disappears, just changes. 

Maybe not appropriate for a child to describe human death but a positive spin on the way things change and death supports life etc.


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## MrsB💜 (Jun 28, 2014)

Hi, this is an interesting thread and a situation that I think will depend very much on the child in terms of how it's handled. My friend had to deal with this with her little one as she asked questions about when she would die and she used her mum as reference for timescales, so something along the lines of....

Yes sweetheart everyone does die and and I will but not for a long time when you are much older, you know that nanny is my mummy and she is still here so mummy's do die but when you are big and grown up, so nothing to worry about for a long time.

Same can then be applied to daddy's I guess as well. I know this won't work for everyone and don't mean to upset anyone at all, but I hope that's helpful as one option. Xx


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## Wyxie (Apr 10, 2013)

I thought I'd replied to this ages ago and realised I hadn't.  Thanks to everyone who has contributed.  I'm still trying to think of the best way with Wyxling, who's just an odd one at times.  I have been attempting to discuss with hubby who is taking the "hope she doesn't ask" approach.  I have pointed out that she has asked, several times, and his response was a cheeky grin and "yes, but she hasn't asked me".  Sod.


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## 06tigerfeet (Jul 16, 2014)

I have been asked that difficult question in work, the family had already pre warned me and advised me to answer with the circle of life answer.. That when we die our bodies go into the ground, we then fertilize the soil which feeds the plants.. The plants in turn feed animals and then us.. 
I think I prefer the more romantic version that we are kept alive in the hearts of people we love and love us..
Or you could be mean and say "ask daddy"


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