# Birth Certificates and the HFE Bill in Parliament NOW



## olivia m

Dear All
The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is now in the House of Commons.  It had it's second reading on 12th May and proceeds to Committee Stage on 19th and 20th May.  It is at this stage that amendments can be put down for debate and voting.
There is an amendment that proposes two possible changes to birth certificates.  The first would mark the birth certificate of a child who had been conceived by donated eggs, sperm or embryos with a symbol to indicate this fact.  The second would mean an upheaval of the whole birth certificate system so that all certificates would indicate that this was a record of the parents who had legal responsibility for a child but that information about possibly different genetic connections could be found on another certificate or register.  This second certificate would only be accessible to the parents or the child themselves on attaining age of 18.

Both these proposals are designed to make sure that parents 'tell' their children about their donor conceived beginnings.  DC Network does not support these proposals. We believe that the majority of parents and potential parents are now educating themselves about the long-term impact of donor conception and making the decision to 'tell' in the best interests of their children, and that this trend will continue as information about How to Tell becomes more widely available and donor conception is accepted as one of the many ways to found a family.

If you feel strongly about these proposals and would like to let your MP know your views and that you will be watching how they vote, email them NOW.  Most MPs have email addresses that put the surname first, followed by the initial @parliament.uk      Otherwise you can find a form on the Parliament web site.  DC Network has sent a Briefing to MPs on this matter (and others within the Bill) and you are welcome to use extracts from this if you choose.  You can find this under Latest News on www.dcnetwork.org
Best wishes
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Thanks Olivia!
I have written to my MP already but will do so again today.
Please can you keep us updated on how this part of the bill progresses (i.e. when it's being debated, when it is being voted on and what the outcome is)?
Many thanks
Lizi.xx

PS. EVERYBODY, PLEASE WRITE TO YOUR MP. We can't let this happen to our children just because we didn't get off our backsides to tell our MP how we feel. The PRO lobby is very strong, we have to make our voices heard too!


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## olivia m

Hi Lizibee
I will certainly do what I can to keep everyone informed.  Unlike the debates on 'need for a father' hybrid embryos and abortion, the debate about birth certificates will not take place on the floor of the House of Commons (where MPs had a free vote).  It will happen after the Whitsun recess in a small committee  and we don't yet know who the Committee members will be.  When we do I will post the names here, or link to the site where they are, so that FF'ers can let them know their views.  The rest of the Bill is being 'whipped', meaning that Government MPs will have to vote with their Party, but this is not a cause for complacency.  As you say, the PRO lobby is passionate about it's cause and although their numbers are small, their voice is educated and articulate and likely to be taken very seriously.
Olivia


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## olivia m

Hi
We have today learned the names of the MPs who will sit on the Commons Committee that will debate, amongst other things, the question of birth certificates for donor conceived children. Do let them know how you feel on this issue.

Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords] Committee:

(1) The Speaker has appointed Mr Roger Gale and Mr Jim Hood Chairmen 
of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords] Committee; 
and

(2) the Committee of Selection has nominated seventeen Members to 
serve on the Committee: Dr Ian Gibson, Patrick Hall, Dr Evan Harris, 
Dr Brian Iddon, Helen Jones, Robert Key, Steve McCabe, Chris 
McCafferty, Laura Moffatt, Julie Morgan, Mike Penning, Dawn 
Primarolo, Dr John Pugh, Mark Simmonds, Mr Gary Streeter, Dr Desmond 
Turner and Jeremy Wright.

Olivia


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## anna the third

when would any changes actually take effect? thx


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## olivia m

Hi
If the Bill receives royal assent before the summer, then it would become law in early 2009.
Olivia


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## olivia m

For those of you who would prefer to write letters to the Committee members, the address is 
House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA

An example of an email address is [email protected]
Evan Harris, the Lib Dem Health spokesperson on the committee is likely to support either the current government position of encouraging parents to 'tell' via educational means OR the proposal to have wording on ALL birth certificates that indicates that there may be further information about genetic background on the Adoption Register or the Register of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority.
This Committee will sit from 2nd June, so get writing!
Olivia


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## spooks

Thank you Olivia I am planning to write my letter this evening and have found the briefing you mentionned, at the beginning of this thread,very useful, thank you.


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## *Suze*

hi olivia

would it be advisable to write to all of the delegates attending the meeting?

i have drafted a letter and have sent it to dr harris however maybe it will be more powerful if i write to everyone?

thank you for letting us know about this

come on girls, lets get writing!!!!!

Suze x


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## olivia m

Hi Suze and all
Yes, if you can manage it, it would certainly be more powerful to write to all the Committee members.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Blimey! So 19 more letters then?
Lizi.x


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## *Suze*

looks like it lizi!!  

i'll just forward the same email to all the commitee members

how's pregnancy going?

x


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## LiziBee

Suze - just waiting 'til I split like a water melon!!


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## Lorna

Dr Evan Harris, the Lib Dem Health spokesperson, has time and time again spoken out against the government imposing their will on women/couples.  

He has spoken out that it is wrong for the government to insist on the number of embryos that can be transferred to a women.  He has even spoken in favour of allowing cloning, when the time is right. 

He has time and time again spoken in favour of of women and men being treated as adults and allowed to make their own decisions.

As he is absolutely against interference by the government in women/couples reproductive decisions, I sincerely doubt he would for a mark on the birth certificate for a donor conceived child.

I would be much more concerned about someone like Mark Simmonds, who has spoken out against Dr Evan Harris or Dawn Primarolo, who is looking to make sure she is re-elected

I can’t work out which way Steve McCabe will vote.  But  I would hope on past voting records the rest would throw this idea out.

Lorna


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## hornauth

hi all.....

i have emailed all committe members....lets hope our letters / emails make a difference.

debbie x


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## LiziBee

If possible could someone PM me the email addresses so I don't have to spend precious time checking them all out?
Cheers!
Lizi.x


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## anna the third

if someone is pm'ing the email addresses to Lizi, would he/she post it too for maximum impact? many thanks


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## Jane D

Sorry to sound dim here, I know this is  for donor conceived children conceived in UK clinics, but does it cover UK people going abroad for donor treatment?

I am considering having UK shared care/DEIVF abroad and want to know if I would be affected.  I understand people independently going abroad for all their care would not be affected as noone in the Uk would be involved but what about those using UK clinics for scans and tests and abroad for the actual transfer?  

thanks

Jane


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## olivia m

Dear Jane
You ask a very interesting question.  In fact everyone going abroad would be involved if it is agreed by Parliament that a symbol or wording should appear on the birth certificate indicating that a child has been conceived by donor conception.  Parents would be expected to tell the registrar about this (no matter where the conception took place) as the aim is to make sure that parents 'tell' their children that they were conceived with the help of a donor.  If, however, it is accepted that this is not the right way forward and the birth certificate of EVERY child (including those conceived without donor assistance) is marked with a notice stating that there may be information about genetic connections held on the Adoption Register or by the HFEA, then the aim of 'forcing' parents to 'tell' will not apply to families where conception took place abroad because information will not be held on either of these registers.  What I do not know, and will check on, is if 'work-up' treatment carried out in the UK appears on the HFEA records, even if the donor conception itself took place abroad.
Just for the record, DC Network does not support any kind of marking of birth certificates.  We do, however, believe very strongly that it is in the best interests of the child (and whole family) if children are 'told' from an early age by their parents.
Best
Olivia


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## olivia m

I have now established with the HFEA that pre-treatment scans, tests and even drug treatment that takes place in the UK prior to gamete donation abroad is NOT captured by their statistics or records.  There would of course be a record held by the UK clinic, but this would be subject to strict confidentiality rules.
Olivia


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## CluckCluck

Think I've got this right. Here are the email addresses of all those on the committee:

[email protected] 
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]


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## brownowl23

Olivia

To answer your question. HFEA would not catch people like myself who had treatment abroad and all their work up treatmment goverened by the overseas clinic. I had no tests scans or anything done in UK for my treatment abroad. I do however intend to tell my boys about their conception and have a very concise diary and information file and even though they are tiny I tell them about thier donor and read them a very simplistic donor egg book designed for children that I have.

It is none of the goverments business how my boys were concieved and if any goeverment official tried to tell me I had to tell them where they came from by law i'd tell them to go to 

Chris


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## LiziBee

Cluckcluck - thank you so much!!

If this is passed then the law is most definitely a donkey!
Lizi.x


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## TracyM

Hi

Just been reading through the posts with interest and would like to ask a question.

I have never been in the position of having a child (yet, am trying) but may have to consider DE.

I dont know anything about registering a child, but I thought that you just had to go to the registry office, and tell them you had given birth, maybe even show proof from hospital? or gp?
How would they know child was concieved by donor unless you actually told them yourself. Even the hospital you give birth in wouldnt know if you didnt tell them??

Please correct me if I,m wrong, but like I said, I,ve never been in that position.

TracyM


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## olivia m

Hi TracyM
You are correct in your assumption.  As the law currently stands Birth Registrars would only know if a child was donor conceived if the parents revealed this fact.  The problem would be if not giving information about donor conception were made an illegal act.  This would make it very difficult for parents to change their minds at a later date as they might be prosecuted for giving false information on the birth certificate.  All this said, it is highly unlikely that any such law would come into being...but we shouldn't be complacent.  Best to let Committee members know that parents do not take kindly to such an infringement of the privacy of their children and family.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

OK, I have now emailed all the members of the committee!
If anyone reading this hasn't, what is stopping you? It is not to late to let your voice be heard!!
Lizi.xxx


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## LiziBee

[email protected] seems to have 'bounced back'.....


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## spooks

I agree with lizibee - if you haven't voiced your opinion it's not too late to e-mail - even if it's a one liner - it can't do any harm 

I must say it felt very empowering posting* all * my letters last week - I've never done anything like that before!


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## LiziBee

A very disappointing reply came from my own MP this morning. It is not the quality of response I normally get. Clearly Mr Dorrell had sent out a 'standard letter' detailing which way he had declared in the open votes in the house and his justification for voting in this manner.
I knew which way he had voted on those issues (indeed I had expected him to vote on those lines) BEFORE I wrote my letter and I didn't refer to them at all. I don't feel he read a word I wrote. So I have sent him a very stinky reply suggesting that this is not the sort of response I have come to expect from him and would he please read it properly and respond.

Lizi-'I'm-very-disappointed-in-you-Stephen-Dorrell'-Bee


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## spooks

sorry to hear of the poor reply but good for you for not letting the matter rest. 
Hope all is well with you - not long to go now


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## Holly Berry

Thanks Lizi and Spooks for the push! I feel strongly about this and have emailed the list this morning. 

Holly
xx


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## lots 1

Started to email those on the list,thought i'd raise the issue regarding women who declare father unknown 
or..just thought of this women who sleep with someone else but put DH/DP's name on birth certificate.Might be worth using this to  make the do-gooders realise what a complete irrational concept this is and a complete infringement it is on our human rights.


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## LiziBee

Lots1 - while I completely agree with your point i think the 'father unknown' issue is going through on a completely separate bill (to do with child support) so it might be best not to muddy the waters with it. Also I feel that trying to focus on the child's human rights (rather than our own) might give our argument more clout. Just a thought.

Lizi.xxx


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## Lorna

Father unknown is now decided. You won't be allowed to that anymore

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4052091.ece


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## spooks

But what if you really don't know? 
I'm not that kinda gal of course but at work I meet many women that openly say they don't know who the father is and it could be a number of men! 

Well done Holly it feels good doesn't it.  

lots1 - that's a fair point and one that really makes me feel mad about the whole issue.   Whatever you decide to e-mail - well done for sending it


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## olivia m

Hi
The issue of having to put the fathers' name on the birth certificate is NOT done and dusted.  There is a proposal to do this in a White Paper which is out for consultation at the moment.  As LiziBee says, just as well not to confuse the two issues...in different Bills, for the time being.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Got a reply from Dawn Primarolo's office:
_The Department recognises that there are many differing views on whether birth certificates should at a future point have any form of indication of donor conception. The Department has no current plans to introduce such a change, but in recognition of the differing views it is considering how it can review this issue, so that the views of all with an interest can be taken fully into account.
I hope this reply is helpful._

Not sure what to make of it. 

Lizi.x


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## AirmansWife

I find it frustrating the people doing the voting more then likely do not have a DE child and probably don't know anyone who does.  While at my first consult the doctor made a flippant remark that clearly put her on the fertile side.  Before speaking with her I hadn't even thought of how those treating me had no idea what it was like to need treatment or even to get the treatment and have it fail.
I wouldn't want my dd birth certificate marked.  What's next, having to put what kind of treatment I used to conceive her?  I know many people need fertility treatments, but I don't believe it's enough yet for people to act like it's the same as getting a flu shot.  I've run into people who are completely against IVF.  I wouldn't want dd having to have IVF Baby branded on her head (so to speak) for the rest of her life.


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## LiziBee

And that's why you need to write to your MP now!!
Lizi.x


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## AirmansWife

Sorry, I'm not a citizen here so my vote doesn't count.    My daughter was born here though.  If my last IVF would have worked all my kids would have been born here.  I will be talking to other ladies I know about this matter though so they can take action.  It's not right by any means.


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## *ALF*

Hi all

This may be the wrong thread to put this on, but it sort of links in.

We went to register our LO's birth last week.  She was conceived with the use of donor sperm.

Anyway, I was somewhat taken aback when the registrar, having determined that DH and I were married, proceded to ask me 'Are you the biological mother of J?'  -  I am, so had no probelms answering yes, but it did bring to mind what the mother of a child conceived using donor eggs would say.  Surely he should not have asked this question? What would he have done if I said no?

When I get a moment I will send my views by email to the relevent people.

Dawn
xx


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## spooks

hmmm that's interesting Dawn - i didn't even think of any of these issues when considering if we wanted to use a donor - perhaps things like this should be raised in counselling/ welfare meetings.


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## LiziBee

Had an apology from my MP for his 'standard letter'. He is looking into the matter - just hope he's not too late!
Lizi.x


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## spooks

had an e-mail from Dawn Primarolo's office - can't cut and paste it now - but in summary it supported allowing parents to tell children themselves and she believed in working with the donor conception network. (I think)


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## olivia m

Hi All
I have been away for a week but catching up now with the debates on the Committee stage of the HFE Bill, Hansard shows that the amendment proposing annotation of birth certificates was withdrawn (ie. not voted on) but is likely to be raised again at Report stage.  Dawn Primarolo continued to strongly support the position of parents being guided and educated towards 'telling' their children themselves.  DC Network's two projects on Telling and Talking and helping to prepare people for DC parenthood will be evaluated as part of the Government's committment to keeping this subject under review.
This particular skirmish is won but the battle is not over so still time to let MPs know how you feel about this issue.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

So it's not going to be in the HFE Bill?? FANTASTIC!!!!
Let Dawn Primarolo keep thinking about thinking about it, but if she (or the minsters that follow her) actually start trying to change it they will hear my opinion in FULL!!
Thanks for bring all this to our attention Olivia!

love to all (and our precious babies!)
Lizi.xxxxx


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## olivia m

Slow down a bit Lizibee, we can't be certain that it is all over as there are still a couple of stages to go, but it does seem that the Government is determined not to allow annotation of birth certs to be part of this Bill and as the final vote on it all will be whipped (ie. Labour MPs will have to vote with the government) it is highly unlikely anything will change now...but we're not celebrating just yet!
Olivia


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## anna the third

I am not going for donor e or s but i feel very strongly that it is completlely wrong to mark children in thsi way lterally from birth - what next, your religion put on the certificate?  didn't someone else try that in the 1930s! It's an absolute disgrace in my view. 

furthermore, when it is NOT law, how dare the registrar ask you, Dawn, about confirming you are the biological mother? what possible justifiction did he/she have for that? busybodying nosiness is not sufficient. 

love to all, (save these ridiculous bureaucrats)


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## lia 18

Hello all,

hope you don't mind me joining!!!!! this is the first time i have been on this particular thread and i have been put a little more at ease with reading your messages.

Just to give you a little background, me and my DH have been trying to get pregnant since we got married. last week he had ssr and unfortunately there was nothing there.

Obviously we are absolutely devastated and now we have many questions on our mind!!!!

Thank fully with everything with me being OK we are going for iui but we will have to use donor sperm. now my husband is heartbroke that we have to have a baby this way, but we have decided it's the only way for us.

Only our parents know because we never want to tell any children we are lucky enough to have. now i was just wondering what any ones experience of this was and what you would recommend? is it better to tell them or not??

Also if we did not tell them will they be able to find out another way that they were conceived using donor sperm or would they only ever know from us??

I am sorry to babble but need a few things clarifying in my mind cos i don't want any children we have to get a letter or owt when they are 18 from hf ea informing them of their donors information also defiantly don't want them to be branded with a mark on their birth certificate and i am just a bit unsure of the regulations.

I would very much appreciate any advice and help

Lia
xx


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## spooks

Hi lia - I don't know all the answers to your questions - me and Dh are using donor sperm  but plan tell our child/ children   straight away.
Things are still new to you and it's such a difficult time I know.   Give yourselves time. Even if you do not want to tell your child about it origins (and please believe me I am not judging you in any way) the donor conception network are a valuable source of help for anyone going through or considering using a donor. They have a website you can look at. 
There is a 'anyone using donor sperm' thread that a lot of us chat on too and there's people at all different stages of tx - many are mothers (no men chat on there sadly) already and they offer such a lot of support about issues that I haven't even considered. Hop on!  
hope someone else can be of more help


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## LiziBee

HI!
Just to let you know I've had a reply from Mark Simmonds M.P. (Shadow minister for health).
Didn't really commit himself to anything. Understandably he's concerned about the differences for children of same-sex relationships (though strangely there was no mention of male couples only female) compared to children or hetero relationships (and for the record I'm pleased he wants to accord all the same rights) but then he goes and says something daft that perhaps it could just be on the long certificate with the short one being used in most cases - does he not realise that nearly everyone asks to see the long one OR is he suggesting a 'third' really long certificate?

I wish I knew an answer to affording all parents of all donor conceived children the same rights, to miss quote Churchill 'it seems we have the worst system in the world, until you try to think of a better one'. I don't know that there is an answer, and to be honest I could care less, it is the CHILD's rights that are important after all but I can't see a better system than the current one for them either (at least in the current circumstances).

Ho hum. Might reply to him, might not, after all I'm likely to have my hands full in the next few weeks!

Olivia - how do you read the current situation/view-point in the conservative party?

hugs to all
Lizi.xxx


PS. Still nothing from Dorrell (my MP).


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## anna the third

unfortunately there are still people in the world who would treat a De or DS child differently from one conceived naturally. 

This is of course completely wrong but it is reality. 

for so long as the prejudice persists, it is arguably an assualt on the child's human rights to mark him or her out as different from others from day 1 onwards. 

no other birth certificate markings are currently made so what next? an annotation that the family has certain genetic diseases? is of certain religion? 

the mark of a civilised society such as that in the UK is that minorities are protected not victimised surely?


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## olivia m

Hi Lizi and All
I was in the public gallery at the House of Commons for the debate and free vote on 'need for a father'....which Mark Simmonds clearly has confused with the birth certificate issue (they all do it).  Despite David Cameron's clear attempts to drag his party into the last century (let alone the 21st), I was struck by just how conservative the Conservatives as a whole remain.

Gordon Brown may be a huge disappointment and the Labour party on it's way out of office, but they have it right on this issue and we are pretty clear that Dawn Primarolo is going to stick to her guns and not allow birth certificates to be marked.  Don't trust the Tories on this one.
Report Stage of the Bill is likely to take place on 8th July and the BC issue will come up again but as any votes will be whipped, the government should be able to see off any challenges.
Best
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Thanks Olivia!

Anna -   too right.

Lizi.x


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## HelenJ

Hi Everyone

I have only just found this website and have read this thread with great interest.  I have just undergone ET last week but I have watched the issue on Birth Certificates obviously with great interest.  This is just another example of the way politicians seem intent on 'nannying' us all.  I wrote to my MP expressing my opinion on this subject, how dare people tell us how to bring up the children but also mark a child out for the rest of their life just because their parents couldn't conceive naturally, ridiculous.  Anyway, needless to say my MP (a Tory) didn't even bother to reply to me. 

Should we protest again before the 8th July in case this is brought up again, or do we just wait?  Hx


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## LiziBee

Helen - It is OUTRAGOUS if he didn't reply as technically they must reply to someone on the electoral role in their constituency. If I were you I'd write to him once again telling him how 'irritated' you are and once again stating your views.
Lizi.xx
PS good luck for your 2ww


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## anna the third

It is indeed ridiculous not to reply. in fact it is what they are paid to do. i'd write again, asking if it were an oversight or if you should draw any inference from it. i would also draw it to the attention of the Chief Whip - Patrick Mcloughlin - as he should know if his "team" are providing poor service to constituents.


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## HelenJ

Thanks girls, I had never thought about going back and complaining, as I have never really written to an MP before;  maybe it does reflect his opinion and also he is probably some old bloke who doesn't even know what donor treatment is anyway, not representative of the general population.  Maybe I shouldn't say that, but as I think someone else said earlier in this thread, how many of these people discussing this issue really understand what it is all about.  

Certainly when I have spoken to friends and family about it, alot of them think it is some sort of adoption, they think that the donor is some sort of surregate, so I am not surprised about the MPs, although I would have thought that they are paid to be better informed!


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## anna the third

Helen, I can assure you they are paid not to KNOW everything but to FIND out everything if a constituent wants them to. and well paid too!


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## LiziBee

I'll second that, that's what they have researchers for!!
Lizi.x


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## HelenJ

Hi Girls

I have just sent a snotty email to my MP and included information that I got from this site regarding epigenetics studies, don't know if you have seen it but one of the girls posted some information about how the carrying mother of a donor conceived baby does pass on certain physical and emotional characteristics to the baby;  if that doesn't make you the mother what else does!  Not that my MP will understand any of it of course!!!    Helenx


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## olivia m

Just to let everyone know that Report stage of the Bill will take place next Monday 14th July.  It is expected that the Bill will receive royal assent by the end of this month.  Let's hope no further serious assaults on birth certificates are made in the meantime.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Thanks for keeping us up to date Olivia!
Lizi.x


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## olivia m

Hi All
Have just heard today that the Report Stage and 3rd reading of the HFE Bill has been put back until the Autumn.  There doesn't seem to be a problem other than lack of parliamentary time, but it is a nuisance nevertheless.
Olivia


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## LiziBee

Ho hum, I guess these things happen. Thanks for keeping us informed.
Lizi.x


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