# Can I bounce off your brains please ?!!



## bluebell

Hello lovely Abroadies,

I know that none of you can give me an answer or wave a magic wand, but I just wanted to share a few of my thoughts and thought that some of you might be able to give me a bit of advice. I feel a bit embarrassed asking which is why I am doing it now before I chicken out !  

As you know I have just got a BFN with an FET.  DH and I have agreed that was our final chance.

Trouble is I am terrified that I will resent him in the end for making us stop now. I definitely feel that I still have one 'go' left in me.  However, he made a huge emotional sacrifice to agree to have another go last time back in Feb, as he had already reached 'closure' after our failed frostie last December.  I persuaded him to have another cycle, which, after our m/c in Feb also meant this FET.

Do you have any hints as to how best to come to terms with this ?  DH said a couple of times this morning, as if to remind me, that we need to focus on Ria now as this is the end of the road. I couldn't answer, as I didn't know what to say.

It's not as if we have marriage problems........ far from it, but just don't know what to say.  I had a mental cut off for me of 45 years old for giving up tx.  That is just my personal limit.  I am now dreading wading through the next few years until I reach that age, and then being really angry and resentful after that with DH and myself for not doing more tx.  

I really do see his side of things though, and want to respect his feelings too and I feel so selfish as he has already had two txs beyond his wishes.  In fact this whole tx business makes me feel selfish and self obsessed.  Do you all feel that too at times ? 

Sorry to hit you all with this me stuff, but not many of us on abroadies have reached this end of the journey stage so could do with your thoughts.

Hoping for a few pearls of wisdom as to how to cope with having to give up tx as you are such a clever and astute bunch.  I know there is a having to give up bit of FF, but I feel better talking to you lot as I know you.  Hope you don't mind !

Bluebell xxxxxxxxx


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## Misty C

Lovely Bluebell

DH and I both agreed that we wouldn't go through another transfer last October.  Like you we had a cut off age of 45 year and thought we would go on until we reached our dream.  It was a lot harder than I thought it would be to turn away from the prospect having my own child.  A cancelled treatment and previous miscarriage put us on a different path that we honestly never expected to be on.  We just couldn't wait to be parents.  Of course this is our story and as you know I hold all you lovely abroadies in high regard for your courage and determination and I am behind you 100%.

I think you know already you have to talk openly to your DH and tell him how you feel, you need to be clear that just now you wish to carry on with another transfer.  You have to be honest with him.  Its easy to tell he loves you, he has been there for you all the way.  Why not suggest a 3 or 6 month complete break and then make a date discuss how you both feel again.  You may find he has had room think and to be honest I bet he is just worried about his lovely Bluebell!

Not sure if this helps but know that I am here if you need me.   

Much love
Misty C
xxxxx


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## bluebell

Misty thanks so much for that.    Yes, you have helped me a huge amount.  I can't see the wood for the trees at the mo so it really helped loads to hear your views and experiences.  
I wish you every luck with your adoption journey. 
I am already feeling a bit better than a few hours ago !
Bluebell xxxxxxx


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## safarigirl

Bluebell, big hugs to you today ....  I agree with what Misty has said ...

here are some other thoughts

Try and determine why your Dh does not want another go - is it financial, emotional, time involved etc ... becasue if you are going to reach him to try for another go, you need to understand where he is coming from.  I know when we were going to go for our second treatment, I went to my Dh and said, okay this is how we can pay for it, and had drawn up a way for it to go through that made sense to both of so, so allayed his financial fears.  You might need to think how you could realistically pay for another go, how long it would take, that it wouldnt take away from you DH and ria ...
If it is emotional, and perhaps the toll on you, perhaps you could discuss how you would handle it ... what you would do differently etc ...

I think that if we deal with peoples fears and offer them solutions then at least you can start talking as opposed to "no more treatment" - rather "how will we pay" or "I dont like the treatment process".

I do agree with misty and perhaps what you, dh and ria need as a family now is some time off from treatment, and perhaps you could ask your dh if you could speak again after christmas (alwasy a good time to bring up enlarging your family!!!)

I am sure if this is something you absolutely want, your dh will go along with it, however you need to understand where he is coming from so that he feels a part of this as well.  Art of negotiating as you know is to make both sides feel like winners! 
Your dh on the other hand also needs to understand how you feel, but perhaps right now, in the light of your past two treatments is not the best time, and a little bit of healing time, some fun as partners, some fun as a family, will put a new spin on this .

Does any of this make any sense, if i am way of the mark, and you have spoken about this then ignore above ...

big hugs and love to you


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## bluebell

Thanks Safarigirl, 
Yes, that's all really helpful, and fits well with all I have learned in life too about relationships.  A classic is never to say to someone (if you can help it) "You always upset me about so and so", or "you never do so and so and it upsets me" etc etc.  It is always best to say "I am feeling hurt about so and so, and it is because of blaaa, and doing blaa would help make me feel better".  It avoids pointing the finger at someone and putting them on the defensive.  You have helped me to remember this clearly.  Thanks !
Love and hugs,
Bluebellxxxx


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## crusoe

Bluebell Hi.

This is such a tricky situation isn't it? Compromise in this area is difficult. I learn't the hard way how not to do it. With my first husband (generally best forgotten) I wanted to start a family and he wasn't ready (it turned out later that he was never going to be ready but that is a different story.) I basically wore him down over time and he gave in. I got what I wanted but I never really felt happy or secure about the decision and that is no basis for bringing a child into the world.

Personally if I were you I would let things lie a little for a few weeks until the raw-ness of your recent result has faded a little, then you can be sure that you are speaking not from a purely emotional perspective but have had time to think carefully. You then as you say have to try and make things non confrontational and be sure not to offer blame. If your DH won't discuss it or is adamant that he doesn't want to persue treatment further I think you have to make it gently clear that you are not prepared to let it go yet and try and get him to agree to at least discuss it again in a month or two's time.
I am just thinking out loud but you did have 9 frosties which sadly didn't make it but you must have been hopeful that with 9 you would be lucky enough to have 2 or 3 frostie cycles if you needed them. You have sort of been cheated by not having this option. Would this give any extra  weight to your arguement for another cycle to kind of bring you back to the position you were in before you lost the frosties? (sorry I don't think I have articulated that very well.)

Safarigirl has given you good advice (she always does) about making sure financial worries are covered incase that is your DH's concern. Do you also need to convince him that you can cope emotionally. One of the things my DH says to me is that he can't stand to see me so upset and it is during those times that he wants to throw the towel in and give it all up. On occassion I have had to muster everything inside me to show I can cope with repeated disappointment and that I can help him cope too. He may just be worried about all you have already been through and the further downs you may face with carrying on with treatment. If you can allay those fears somewhat you may make progress.

I feel for you Bluebell - giving up is something my DH and I are getting ever nearer to and I am just praying that we will both know when that day is and can agree but I worry that I may be in a similar position to you before too long.

Huge hugs to you.

crusoe
xx


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## bluebell

Thank you so much Crusoe.  You have shared some thuoghts with me that must have been painful for you to drag out, so I really appreciate you sharing them with me.

I think what is important here is that I am not sure yet that I want to persuade him. I maybe didn't make that clear in my original post, but what I wanted to do was to be able to find a way of coping with not having more tx without being resentful and angry. 

You lot are fab and have supported me so much. Where would I be without you ?
Blooob xxxx


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## Newday

Bluebell

I wish I knew the answer to this but I too am struggling with this one. When I met my DH he had three children 18 and twins 15 and he told me he had had a vasectomy and I said that was Ok I didn't want children we got married when I was 38. I don'tknow what happened but suddenly I did it started off I persuaded himto have a reversal that didn'twork.

We moved onto IVF got pg lost it at 9 weeks 2nd IVf abandoned no eggs. So then we moved to donor eggs two cycles at ceram and nothing. We then re mortaged the house and we had 10K extra for treatment £4,500 spent at Reprofit in May. We have two frosties which I am going back for in Oct and then we have the money for one more treatment.

I wouldlike to try DS but Dh will notmove on this. Now while I have treatments to looks forward to there is always aglimmer of ahope it will work but when the money runs out I am terrified.I don't thinkI can even think about it and Dh agreed he is scared of that day too.

I have a big hole and nothing else will fill it some days I get very dpressed and feel it will NEVER work and other days I am filled with hope. But I am now the only one of a group who has been to rerofit and not got pg I was part of a group that went to ceram and didn't get pg and I ampart of a small groupon abroadies who never seem to get pg.

Everyone elseis moving on except me. I have no answers no oneknows why it isn't working good embryos and I've gotpgonce with my own eggs so why not.

I am so scared of it all ending owingmoney and having nothing. We looked into adotping but the SW basically thinks my DH has too many issues he had a difficult childhood. By the way he doesn't have issues!!

So I am left being a Nan to DHG's children's children and being childless empty and feelinglike afailure. Other women get pg the girls I teach at school(14 -19) get pg everyone it seems except me.

I am sorry about the rant but thats how I feel.

Dawn


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## crusoe

Oh Dawn - I could have written most of that too especially the part about being part of an ever smaller group of abroadies who never seem to get pregnant. Like you I feel in complete limbo, desperate to move on but I can't and no one is able to offer any answers. Like you some days I am hopeful and others it all feels too much to bear.
Please remember you are not alone. There are others feeling just the same as you and all we can do is try and support each other as best we can. None of us are failures we are strong and determined but we have been dealt a cruel hand.

Here for you anytime you want to chat - it helps me too.

Love and hugs 
Crusoe
xx


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## bluebell

Oh Dawn I am going to send you an IM.  You brought tears to my eyes reading your post.  I am sending you the biggest of hugs and I want to thank you for opening your heart on this 'me thread'. 
You are such a special lady to us on here, and hope so much that it works out for you in the end. As you have said, you have been pg once before, so it is possible for your body to do it. 
Coming to the end of tx is something we have all feared, so it is perhaps a good thing to talk about how to cope with it if and when it happens.  Drawing that final line is so difficult.  Tx is like gambling (in fact in a way it is), and the more we do it, the more we feel we deserve for it to work, as the more we have invested both financially and emotionally.  It is so hard to stop. All I think (and this is small consolation I know) is that we generally can't just keep havng tx for the rest of our lives.  We will all reach an age (probably different for all of us) where we will feel it is too late, so that at least we can take a bit of comfort as at that time we will have to make that mental leap into moving on, and might find relief in having to give ourselves that final deadline.  I say this with an obvious sense of gratefulness that I have Ria, but an honesty in saying that even with one the pain doesn't go away.
Apart from those of us who are lucky enough to have the whole family that we wanted, the pain will never go away, but I am sure it will lessen eventually as our lives move on, and it will hurt less and less. At least we will have each other, hopefully for a long time, to speak to over the years !
Thinking about adoption for you Dawn, (apologies if you have done all this), but how about going for an appeal / second opinion about DH's status for adoption ?  OK he may have had a difficult childhood, but that doesn't mean he can't be a good dad. You and he have been on a really tough journey with all your txs, and shown huge commitment to wanting to be parents together.  Surely this must count in his favour.  I don't want to open any cans of worms for you, but howabout revisiting that idea alongside going for your frosties ? 
I am sending you the BIGGEST of hugs, and I really do understand your sense of failure (you should have heard me ranting to DH about the same last night !!), but we all know deep down that we aren't failures, and it is a good thing that we have each otehr to pat ourselves on the back and remind ourselves that on the contrary ... only the tough can survive this fertility DE tx mountain range !
Wishing you peace and happyness Dawn, and hope we can meet some day soon in the Midlands.
Love Bluebell xxxxxxxxx


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## Sasha B

Hi liebe Bluebell,

I really wish I had the answers for you. Its so so tough when its something that you want so much and that you've invested your whole life into. each tx drains you emotionally 100% and to be at a place where this is possibility your last must be so tough. I know its not the same, but I felt a bit like that when Dh died. Your whole focus previous is on the situation & how to make things better or work. But then suddenly, not only was he gone, but all the day to day caring, monitoring his meds, etc. went too & I felt very very empty. I had to re-discover the purpose of my life without Dh and that was a hard & painful place to be. But I got through it and you will too, if indeed this is your last go (I really hope you Dh has a change of heart though). It will take time & I still have days where I find myself in tears but the pain is not so cutting now. I guess what I am trying to say is that you will find gradually that there will still be hope & joy for you in the future. You will even be surprised by it at times.

Sending you the biggest of stonking great hugs.

Sasha xxx

p.s. Tried to IM you but couldn't. Sorry.


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## Newday

we went for an initial dsicussion with and adoption agency and during the conversation DH said he was frightened to walk through doors that he couldn't see through. But it is soemthing he has to deal with every day of his life and he does. Further discussion led to him saying it was because his mother forced him into a dark corridoor. When the lette cam back they said he would ned psychiatric assessment!!Also they thought the fact that we lived in a small village was a problem what would children do? To which I replied the same as all the other children who live in the village. I am quite sure people don't decide NOT to have children just because they live in a village. They aslo felt we did not have enough friends or go out enough and I am sure I don't need to tell you the answer to that one.

Basically it has put the stops on even considering it DH was so upset that he had let me down and the whole experience put us both off.

Now don't get me wrong we both are good jobs my Dh has his own business we have a good life we have a lovely grandson but for me there is the hole. Dh has undergone sperm extraction 4 times now and last time he was cut. He never complains and he is fully supportive but I feel I need to let him move on. He feels that he is not enough for me but he is.

Bluebell don't be sorry I don't often post my feelings on here but I am as you guessed finding more and more hard ( as a few others are) to be the one who it just doesn't work for.

I don't start my txc cycel until; 3rd of Oct  but I am already on about 20 tabs a day because I am taking high dose B vits incase I have the MHTR(?) gene and they won't hurt anyway. Once txc starts there are loads more to add in. All in the hope of getting pg. Even my consultant said he wants to see us for a happy event not misery all the time.

Dawn


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## Grumpygirl

Hi everyone, especially the lovely Bloobs who is going through right now what quite a number of us are fearing is coming up for us.  

I so wish we could all be pg by now, it seems like there's a whole lot of Groundhog day going on and it surely must shift one way or the other for some of us at the very least soon. We all deserve it and want it so badly but I think that unfortunately sometimes it's just not meant to be. It's so so hard to accept but for some people IVF doesn't work and I'm also thinking I'm one of them. Dawn, Crusoe- I relate so much to your comments and we know each other's stories well but also sometimes I think we hide our down moments for the fear of dragging everyone else down. In a strange way it helps to know I'm not the only one blubbing and not always dealing with it well. Sasha, your pain over your DH is not less, hun, it's just different and I for one think you're very brave and deserve happiness with your little Bella so much.

From a purely personal point of view I'm fed up of going to the Doctor to be told bad news, only to subject myself to more injections, drugs and untimately disappointments. I felt like this nearly a year ago after our last bfn in Oct/Nov and looked into adoption then, but never got past the initial phone call as DH and I agreed to go down the testing route and wait for a while. Then another disappointment despite a 'perfect' cycle again. I am so tired of feeling like a failure and it is now 4 years since I was first diagnosed with my cancer (well, first dodgy scan) and it has been an endless stream of hospital visits during that time. I got through the chemo with the idea I could be successful with DEIVF, then 2 years of banging my head against that particular brick wall later I'm told I have a cluster of autoimmune issues which may or may not be the problem, but I'm such a specialised case it will be difficult for us now. I haven't been coping well' since July and the last bfn if I'm honest, I spent 2 weeks just crying all day, followed by crying every other day for another 2 weeks, and now it's just on my days off when I'm at home on my own and can allow myself a good blart. I wonder sometimes if I'm depressed but remember what my counsellor at the NHS clinic said to me when I went in April, that to go through what we have and not cry wouldn't be natural and to let it all out is healthy. She thought I'd coped with it all remarkably well and it's just a horrible situation, which has helped me to cope. I don't want anti-depressants because I've had enough drugs and I may want to adopt, but I also think if you took the situation away I wouldn't be fed up. I do worry though that I'm hiding my feelings from those around me a bit as we've already been through so much as a family I don't want to keep being the one to drag everyone down. 

If I'm honest I think I've been so tearful and sad because I know in my heart of hearts this isn't going to work for us and I'm grieving in advance of that. I'm hoping that it's like when my dear old Nan died and she'd had Altzeimers for years, it was so upsetting for us going to visit her and see her like that but when she actually died although we were sad we'd done our grieving over the last few years and we weren't so sad as we would have been with a sudden illness or death. Does that make any sense? I hope that the pain we've been through with each BFN is part of the grief you would have to endure to be told categorically 'you will never have children' and to have to deal with that all in one go. 

Bluebell, I realise we've all gone a bit off topic here, in that you're trying to come to terms with how to stop tx right now. I don't have the magic wand on that one, I'm afraid, but I'm sure you and DH have such a good relationship that you will work through it by talking to each other. 

One thing I do have to say and that is that I am never more grateful than I have been in recent weeks for FF because you girls really do keep me going. I feel quite lonely sometimes with our problems and responsible for them too (which is stupid as it's not my fault) but I can always come on here and have a chat/laugh/cry and there is no support anywhere like the support you get from someone else going through the same thing. I have good friends and close family and DH and I discuss everything but you girls are so lovely. I just wish there was a way we could all have what we want.

There is a thread for moving on and accepting, maybe we should have an abroadies one too. 

May I wish each and every one of us a BFP or the ability to cope with the aftermath, whatever that may be.
Love
Giggly
xx


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## RSMUM

Hi girls,

Bluebell, I didn't see this thread until now - I am soo pleased you started it.... I have just spent ages reading all your posts and god,you are all sooo amazing, so articulate and so wonderful....sorry that sounds so mushy..Bloobs, I feel pathetic now just asking you how you are after all the fabulously helpful things everyone has said.. ..everytime, reading all you posts I thought of something to add someone else has said it..

I'm in absolute tears reading some of your stories and comments...and yet again as so many times, I am just struck by how brave everyone is...especially this abroadies crew...

Don't know what I'm trying to say, just had to come on and give my support however I can....I hope nobody minds,,,

You lot have helped me through some dark, dark times and I just wanted to say how fantastic you are and what brilliant suggestions you have come up with to help Bluebell come through this hell..

You've all said it better than I ever could


Take care, all of you

Deb XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx


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## Grumpygirl

I just went on a walk with the woofer and cleared my head a little and feel bad that I poured out so much of my trash on this thread when it's not helping you, Bluebell. I guess I was trying to say you're not alone and I know partly how you feel.  

RSMum, you're a love. I've been meaning to reply to your email but will get round to it soon hopefully. xx


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## Jaydi

Hello everyone can I jump in here?  I have a tip to share.  I’m new to all this so don’t know if I’m posting right and should probably go and practice on the newbie bit but like RSMUM I was so moved by your stories – I am definitely in the same club – and I wanted to share with you.  Yes Giggly we save our crying until we’re home alone, so true, but what amazing people we are – we somehow manage to keep going and it seems to the world that we are just having a normal life but underneath we have all this going on!!  Let’s blow our own trumpets and admit we’re pretty phenomenal.

Bluebell thank you for starting this thread I can so relate to what you are going through just now.  DH and I have had several ‘ups and downs ‘ times of not being sure whether to carry on – but how to stop and say ‘no more’?  Horrible horrible dilemmas.  We are in one now yet again.  The first time DH didn’t want to think or talk about it anymore it just made me more pushy with him to get some reaction and try to work out what he really wanted??

Anyway thankfully I got a great tip from the counsellor at our first ivf clinic and we have used it a few times since.  She suggested we get a huge sheet of paper – as long as the dining table – maybe the back of a roll of wall paper.  We taped the paper down on the table and then each armed with some felt tips we started writing out our options.  Big headings – notes – cartoons - everything.  We had loads of columns – no kids, adoption, adoption from overseas, another ivf with us, D ivf overseas, D ivf uk.  Crazy isn’t it once you look at the whole picture?  And most people just get to go to bed together!!  So unfair... 

Then we added notes for costs too and where the money could come from (as Safarigirl put it so beautifully).  After we had all our options we then listed pro and cons for each.  A ‘con’ on adoption for us was having to deal with social services (we have been foster carers in the past) – I feel for you Dawn – it’s not you!

Finally once you have brainstormed all your options you then need to give weight to your ideas.  This is really important.  Next to each option you need to each say, for example, if ‘I never have kids how would I rate that on a scale of one to ten?’  You each get to record the pain or joy you would feel for each one.  It is an absolutely fascinating process and was the turning point for us.  If DH could say the pain of carrying on would be a 7-8 and I said the pain of never having children would be a 10 or more!! He could see how strongly I felt.  It came as a huge surprise both of us how we rated each option.  I had assumed that because I talked about ivf all the time that DH knew how I felt but it really wasn’t until we wrote it down like this that we really understood each other.  We were so much closer afterwards.  For us we also came to realise that it’s ok to find something really hard (8/10) and to still carry on while recognising it’s tough.  I agree with Misty and Crusoe that our DHs hate to see us suffering – they forget how strong we are.  Sasha thanks for your post about grieving – it meant a lot to me.

This is such a long post – I’m sorry to go on but I am so excited about this wallpaper idea.  One important point that the counsellor told me was how to get DH even prepared to do the brainstorming at all.  She said to make it clear that this is a ‘feasibility study’ not an ‘action plan’.  You are only considering options.  You also agree that you will only do this for one hour on Saturday morning (or whatever you  decide) and after that you will put it away for a week and do the same the following Saturday.  Finally poor DH gets some relief from my constant pushing!  He will discuss it now because he knows there is an end!  With the pressure off we ended up being so much more open and then closer to each other.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for sharing everyone - it’s such a boost to know others are on this strange journey too!!

Jaydi xxx


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## BettySpaghetti

Hi Jaydi,

I thought this was a great post!!  

My dh and I are on our 4th 2ww at the moment and have started having 'alternative options' discussions and find the format of those discussions difficult, so we don't seem to get anywhere - never arguing or anything, just seems a bit too "up in the air".  

Your suggestion below sounds a good way of giving it some structure and maybe ending up with both understanding the other a little more, with regards to which avenue to go down.

So, thanks!


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## roze

Hi all,

Haven't posted here yet as wanted to give it a lot of thought before doing so.  The replies have probably said it all really, and yes the wallpaper idea is a good one.  All I can say is to beware of setting strict age limits for yourself on ceasing trying tx,  especially based on what may be socially acceptable limits for trying. I am not arguing for septugenarian conception here but within reason what is right for one person may not be right for another. I never dreamed I would still be perservering at 45 and giving birth at 46, and considering a second go just a month before my 47th birthday, and despite a few hiccups, actually feeling so very well physically. If I hadn't been the natural .first and only child of a 46 year old woman myself I would probably think what I've done was a bit freaky!

Lots of love to everyone, especially Bluebell as this is tough tough tough for you at the moment.


roze


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## Hun

I just wanted to say what a great thread this is, and how much I have identified with some of the thoughts that have been posted here.

You are all a very lovely bunch of inspiring and wonderful ladies.
Hun xx


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## RSMUM

Yeah, I have been absolutely amazed at the responses - it's something I've gone through again and again but never really thought to write down, although I've discussed it endlessly with my long-suffering friends.....   

Bluebell, I really hope this is a help to you - the things that people have written have been fantastic! 

Funny what you said Roze - my "cut-off " point was 42, but then it was 43..and now here I am at 45.. 

As HUN said " what an inspiration you all are! "..

Bloob, you have sarted something REALLY good with this thread hun,as I said, I really ,really hope it helps you get through this tough time, but also, I am sure, you have started something that is also going to help a LOT of people...

Huge hugs hun,

hang in there as best you can 

XXXX


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## Jaydi

BettySpaghetti  - Wow the 2ww – what a tough time!  Good luck for testing day.  I hope you only need to use the wallpaper plan to agree on the best baby buggy.  It works for everything – the counsellor used it to negotiate a new kitchen!  
Roze thank you so much for your post about age limits.  That has been on my mind so much lately.  It really takes the pressure off to hear stories like yours.  I hope with DEicsi we can get there.
Yes RSMUM - Bluebell you have started something really good with this thread.  You have been brave enough to say what we were all thinking too.  Thank you.  You have even got me posting – after being a lurker for ages!
Jaydi x


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## bluebell

Wow you lot, I am absolutely overwhelmed by this thread and the responses. It has left me with such a warm feeling of hope and optimism for us all despite the pain (oh dear, sounding like Chris de Burgh again, must keep taking the tablets) but it's TRUE.  I almost deleted the thread after I 1st posted it as I felt it was too self-centred and no one was responding at 1st !  So glad now I didn't !!

Firstly, I am amazed and humbled by both Sasha and Giggles, who have compared their respective pains of losing a husband and having cancer to my pain of having to give up tx.  What you two have been through bears no comparison.  I know this isn't about pain comparison, but you two are so strong and such an inspiration.  I feel honoured to know you both as I learn so much from both of you.

Jaydi, I am so glad you have come out of lurking !  Your post gave me so many ideas.  I wish the counsellor and our ACU was such an inspiration.  Your wallpaper thing sounds like a good variation of cognitive behavioural therapy - think I might try it !  It sounds fun if nothing else !  Good luck in your journey and loooking forward to getting to know you.

Betty Spaghetti and Manicum .. great to know you too.  Betty, all the very best for testing.   

Debs, you are my very special chum, but you know that already !

Roze, you too, and please feel free to phone me, any time (maybe tonight as we are away at the w/e).  Would be lovely to chat.

Hun, thanks for posting on here too.

I think I will see what I can do about somehow turning this into a permanent thread !

Thanks you lot.

I just wanted to say one more thing today.  Of course I know that grief has various stages and forms, and that some small trigger will set of the tears for years and years to come, but it is almost like how Giggles described the nan dying thing.  All through my 2WW, and even before that, despite hoping for a BFP, I have been preparing for the situation I am in now.  I was so scared as to how awful it would be. I imagined I wouldn't be able to function at all and would sink into the deepest of depressions and lose all interest in everything else in life. Indeed, DH would constantly (in 2WW) be making small talk about what to me seemed trivia - "we ought to lift our onions before the frost comes" and other DH delights, and last week in 2WW I had no interest at all ... only in testing and the result.  I can honestly say that I am, at the moment, experiencing that sense of relief, that at least it is all over and I have come out the other side.  I may talk to him again in a few months about possibly having a go again, at a chaeper clinic (what Crusoe said about the missed chances with the failed embies was helpful ... thanks Crusoe), but for the moment I want to make the most of life and try to be grateful for what I have. I know I will have very black days and moments to come (had one this morning when they were talking on Radio 4 about sex, and some woman who was pg with her 3rd said that her husband said he found pg women sexy as it showed they were fertile ... mmmm just what I wanted to hear !), but there is hope !

I hope that this thread has helped people.  It certainly has me.  

Loads of luurrrrrv,
Bluebell xxxxxxxx


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## MrsBunny

Bluebell, I'm so so glad that this thread has helped you. And I'm certain that it has helped others. How brave of you to post such intimate thoughts at what is an undoubtedly difficult time for you.
As you say, nobody posted much at first, except the wonderfully wise Misty and Safarigirl. I think this was because you probably 'hit a nerve' with most people (abroadies) and although we wanted to try and help, we knew we needed to think carefully about what to say on such a sensitive subject, especially when we've all probably been in a similar quandry.

Being a relative ivf 'newbie', I hope you don't mind me posting my experience and thoughts on the subject - although a 'newbie' I've learnt so much from all of you and seen how difficult it's been for you to cope with this rollercoaster we find ourselves a part of (I feel like it's a part of me and not that I'm on it!).
I remember that when we were trying to make the decision about whether to go for DE, me and DH had a big discussion and the only way in the end that we could make the definitive decision was by standing up and saying - if you want this, step forward, if not, step back - needless to say we both stepped forward at the same time! The wallpaper idea is great, Jaydi, thanks for sharing that with us.

On the subject of age, I never thought I'd be having tx at my age. If I get pg with my frosties (please God), I'll be 47 when I give birth! As RSMUM and Roze say, you don't really know how you'll feel until you get to the age. When we made the decision to try for a baby, I was 43 and was thinking that 45 was my cut-off age, but we didn't get through all the preliminary tests etc until I was 45!! Of course I originally thought I'd get pg straight away, having had no trouble with my DD's!!
But here I am, and although I do have worries about age, it's what other people think that bothers me, not how I feel inside.

I don't know what we'll do if our FET doesn't work. I think I'd be beyond the cut-off age if I went back on the waiting list at Ceram. Me and DH haven't talked about what we'll do, although it's as if he's already decided (or thinks we've decided) that this will be the final go, as he's said a couple of things lately that have made it seem like this is what he thinks. I haven't challenged him as I want to stay in the little world of hope for our FET for now, but we may be needing that wallpaper soon. I think it's the money - DH is very practical and it's black and white for him that we cannot afford another go, although it will be so painful for him (although he has just got a rather nicely paid job until he goes back to Uni to hopefully study for a Phd).
I know that if we decide not to try again, that it will be difficult to come to terms with and my(our) lives will seem empty and I cannot imagine how that will be at the moment. So Bluebell, your post really did 'strike a chord' with me and it's been enormously helpful to read what everyone has said - and so sad too, with stories such as Dawn's and Giggly's and Sasha's.

It's taken me ages to write this as I don't really like going on about my own experiences. Thank you everyone for posting your advice - you are all very brave and incredibly strong and whatever happens to us all, we will always take strength and comfort from what we have learned on this site.

Bluebell, I'm glad that you are deciding to make the most of what you have got - it sounds like you have a lovely relationship with DH - and I hope it isn't too difficult for you in the months to come, whatever you decide to do. 

Lots of love
Mrs Bunny xxxx


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## bluebell

Mrs Bunny, you are a sweetie.  Hoping hard for your frosties !  Thanks so much for posting here too.  This has become such a useful thread already.  I hope it helped you to offload too.
Bluebell xxx
PS Hope I didn't offend anyone by saying my mental cut off age is 45.  I know it is different for everyone, and i know people who have a cut off of 40 or less, and some who have no cut off age ! I also am aware that of course, when I reach 45, who knows what I may feel then !


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## RSMUM

Well, you certainly didn't offend this old timer...it just reminded me of how I was going " oh yeah, 42 .." and how I seems that I have  conveniently forgotten that a few years have past since then!


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## safarigirl

Bluebell, you have opened up a much needed topic, so thank you for that - it has become a useful forum for the wonderful abroadies to be able to discuss their feelings, anxieties and how they feel .... i think this is sometimes put aside and i am glad their is a place for it, and for everyone to recognise how people really feel.  Often i think this is put aside and i am glad that their is place for everyone to discuss their fears etc ... my heart goes out to so many of hte posts (giggles, newday, sasha especially - who have articulated so well the feelings that arise on this journey)
I think the age issue is interesting, and i have to agree with roze - instead of making an age cut off, it would probably be better to say, "if i am healthy, feeling physically fit, mentally able".  It is really not going to make much difference to a child if their mother is at some point 50 or 53 or 57 in the long run - we will always be old to a child - even if we gave birth at 18!
I think that as long as someone feels up to it, then go for it - and everyone will have a differnet cut off point.  I am 45 so no youngster out here!  I know i am writing this as one of the lucky ones, been succesful on this journey, and as always i offer my continued support to everyone who is still on this road, i plan to stay here as long as you need me and i can be of some help.
big love and kisses to the brave women on this thread


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## kitykat

I don't know whether to write this as I am scared I will upset someone. I identified with your posts and dilemmas about giving up treatment. Last Friday, we agreed that we both find treatment hard, but that we can't give up if these frosties don't work. I am "only" 33 and you made me realise how much time we have to think about this and that it isn't a race. I had a "give -up" time of 35 in my head and now I don't know why that is. My DH finds the hardest thing is watching me being so upset and all the drugs etc. I think we can forget how hard it is for them too. If it doesn't work this time we are going to have a break for a year and then reassess. I am not sure I can wait that long, but DH needs a break. Maybe it will do us both good. 

Bluebell - I am not sure I can help with your dilemma, but thank you for starting the thread.

Kitykat
XX


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## bluebell

Just one more thought on the age thing before I go to bed ....
One advantage of giving yourself your own personal cut off is that it does give you a way to help you draw the line mentally.  It is just a tool really that can help some people, but is not set in stone, and as Safarigirl and Roze have said, there are no rules.  I have certainly found some comfort in it for myself.  My cut off is nothing to do with biology, or social norms, just what I feel is my limit for trying for too long. I absolutely support women of all ages who decide to have a baby.  We are all different and emotions revolving around tx are so complex that they hit us all in different ways, and of course the timing of tx cannot be planned, as it wasn't foreseen for most of us !  I am 42 but can feel anything from 6 to 90 depending on circumstances !  
Night night abroadies xxxxxxx


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## Ms Minerva

I have just found this thread - thank you Bluebell for staring it!

I have a number of worries about having treatment again, I am worried about how my "old" body will cope with pregnancy, last time at 39 I was incredibly well, had a really healthy pregnancy, not diabetes, no high blood pressure - will I be that lucky again?

Also I worry about the age gap between my DD and any possible sibling/s that I may conceive, DD will be 5 next year...

I also worry how I would cope it I was lucky enough to have twins!

Then there is the biggest worry, which is fear of yet another failure, and how I would cope, after having such a really rotten year....

I suppose that when I started down the DE route, I thought that it was the answer and 2 years on, I have had 1 cycle canceled, due to donor didn't respond to stimms, a BFN with 2 beautiful blasts, and a failed FET when my other two "beautiful blasts" failed to survive the thaw. 

So I really don't know where I go from here.....think I will give it one more go...just can't get back on the roller coaster just yet....but with each month that passes the age gap grows ever wider..

Sorry, this has turned into a "stream of consciences" type rambling, but if you have got this far, thanks for reading! 

Jules
xxx


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## safarigirl

Jules, so nice to see a post from you!  I would say dont worry, you'll only know when you are pregnant what you have to deal with - 
also an age gap can be such an advantage as well - my brother has a son of 30 - then a next son now 23 and a daughter of 17 - they love each other, and support each other, and enjoy the age gap - another brother also has a big age gap, and the youngest is treated like a young god by his two older sisters .... so i would say its a big positive from my own experience - we learn to live with and accept what we get!
Hope you feeling better, you have had quite a year - and i wish you luck with your next treatment ..... big hugs to you


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## roze

I agree that whilst it might be helpful to have a cut off age, its just as necessary to be clear as to how long people want to stay on the fertility road before considering other options and or giving up, or at least taking a break.  Its impossible to keep going for ever as it really does takes it toll on your life let alone bank balance.  I was about to give up if the tx at ISIDA had not worked - fortunately it did. This time last year I was in Kiev and tomorrow is the first anniversary of the tx which gave me Ella! I will remember this date and the experience always.

Just on age and health in pregnancy, I have discussed this with my NHS hospital consultant and he has written a letter of support to ISIDA in respect of my trying with the frosties as I had no pregnancy complications . He feels that the next pregnancy should it work ought to be as straightforward in respect of diabetes, blood pressure etc, however no two pregnancies will ever be the same. I am still trying to lose weight and get fitter in the next few months as everything helps.

The statistics are that health risks are greater the older you get, and that there will always be a risk of stillbirth, which rises with age, however the sample of older women getting pregnant is small and there may be many reasons for a poor outcome, ie relating to financial situation, general health, etc that contribute to these statistics .  There is also  a world of difference between a healthy 40 something planning a pregnancy via fertility treatment and a 40 something who may be a smoker, have 5 kids already, and having an unplanned pregnancy.  Attitude to the pregnancy also influences outcome and how people handle stress and sleepless nights etc. So age is a factor but not just the only factor.  In truth, the first few weeks for me were pretty awful  post c section due to the discomfort, problems with breastfeeding and string of infections, not at least lack of sleep,  but now that Ella is sleeping more and we are getting more confident about basic childcare, etc, things are getting better and we are getting out and about and starting to do lots of exercise.  I hope this will be sustained during Ellas toddler years as I know this can be an issue of concern, but having seen some other 50 somethings recently who are climibing mountains , running marathons, having busy active careers and having the time of their lives, I am confident that it is possible to build up physical strength and fitness to be able to run around and play with small toddlers. 

regards


roze  xxx


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## bluebell

Yes, Roze, you are right !  I have to admit to feeling smug in my antenatal classes as I seemed to be the only one (despite being by far the oldest !), who was still very active and was feeling fit and great !  I was still doing 5 mile walks even when 2 weeks overdue. I remember doing one walk in particular, 1 week overdue, up a hill, half an hour's drive from home, and thinking "Hmmmmm this is a bit silly ... no one knows I am here and I am overdue with my babe!".  I remember looking for a nice, snug cozy place in the moss just in case !  It sounds like you have plenty of energy too and live a healthy life, which, as you say, is so important !  Ella is one lucky lady to have such a caring and fun mum !  As you say, you are as young as you feel.  My MIL is 65 and still does pretty extreme canoeing !  I wish you every luck with your frosties.

Miss Minerva, thanks for posting on here. Of course I read all your post, as I am sure we all did.  It was a lovely post and I hope it has helped you a bit to read other people's thought on how to begin to address ending the journey.  I know I have said this already but it has certainly helped me to know that we are now addressing this area that we hadn't talked about much before.  I certainly don't think that the age gap would matter at all with your DD.  In many ways I imagine it will be easier, as she is not only old enough to expalin about babies and their needs to, but she is old enough to help you in caring for any new one ! In my experience with friends, despite the inevitable jealousy that arises from time to time, older siblings are always really excited about new siblings, whatever their age  !

Love to all,
Bluebell xxxx


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## Jaydi

Hi Bluebell and everyone

What an important thread this is.  Such difficult stories.  Big hugs everyone.  And to Bonnie for sharing your story - your DD and twins are lucky to have such a special mummy.

I have had a difficult weekend – can I share? – a conflict between a friend and me over ivf tx.  She wants me to stop tx and actually blanks me if I talk about it.  When I told her I was pregnant she was over the moon and fantastic to talk to but when I broke the new that I miscarried she said nothing and then has blanked me every time since.  Well I’m sure there’s lots of advice about what to do with ‘friends’ like this but really that aside it has stirred up loads of things for me.  She is the critical voice I already had on my shoulder saying I should stop.  Actually right now I don’t know how to carry on, but I keep thinking maybe I will want to once I have recovered from the miscarriage – AF has been visiting for months now!  And great handfuls of my hair have fallen out so I now have a completely bald spot in one place – a lovely look.  So it’s hard to make a decision about anything when feeling so low and exhausted.  Then my friend sent an email saying “I completely understand your desire to conceive, but I am so worried about how many knock backs you have had, and how you may be affected physically and mentally if you have any more disappointments. It's so much to put yourself through. I really wish things were different for you, of course I do.”  When I read the email it I realised that it was important I made the decision for myself and no one could tell me it’s time to stop.  I found a great site at the weekend called mothersover40.com and I read the Birth Experiences section which gave me lots of hope about being a mum one day and also that it was ok to be older.  I felt reassured that women could fall pregnant naturally even in their early 50s.  So if nature says it’s ok why should I listen to society (and the voice on my shoulder) saying I should stop?  

Also I know this summer may have been the only time in my life I will ever be pregnant so I don't want to sweep it under the carpet.  I felt that for a few precious weeks I was in the club with everyone else.  Now I've been dropped and I'm back on the infertility side which is so lonely.  I really wanted to share my experiences with my friends.    All my life it’s been 'Oh you wouldn't understand you've never had children of your own' or "Well you've never been pregnant".  Yes we really do get comments like that and worse don’t we!  But now I have been pregnant and even then I'm not in the club with everyone else because mine didn't make it.

Perhaps my friend doesn’t know how DH and I have to cope all the time with our envy of others who have a family.  Just a simple trip to the shops or walking to work is full of pain and envy.  I think we're so brave going out at all.  I went to the docs the other day and the waiting room was full of toddlers playing with their mums.  If I could live in a child free world I would just so I didn't have to see everyone else having fun together and us on the outside watching.  So when my friend talks about knock backs and mental pain – I need to balance up just how painful it to have to go out to the house each day knowing you're not like everyone else.  I'm not talking about this is how we feel since the miscarriage - this is how we feel all our lives - but we just put on a brave face and smile.  And I worry that our pain won't stop because we've stop trying.  That it's not the trying that hurts us.  Does this make sense?

My friend still won’t speak to me about it, she has made up her mind.  I even sent her the link to the video - tearsandhope.com  

I don’t have any friends who have fertility problems – no wonder it’s lonely.  Thank goodness for this site so we can share and support each other.

Love Jaydi x


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## bluebell

Jaydi you brought tears to my eyes reading your story and feelings.  Thank you so much for sharing it with us.  I can relate to so much that you say.  I see it as a mountain that some people can climb so easily (in fact they get a helicopter ride to the top !), but others of us keep climbing up over and over again, only to slip on the rocks and fall back down to the bottom.  We can see them all up there at the top, chatting and happy.  It's an analogy, but seems so real.  I used to get comfort by thinking that one day I would just sod the mountain, head off in the other direction and find new places, perhaps with a lovely peaceful beach !

I also know what you mean about how people dwell on how painful the tx is, as if giving it up would be the solution, when actually giving it up would possibly be more painful, in it's own way, as carrying on. As Bonnie says, giving up could also be a time bomb of later resentment. I have gradually come to learn that people just don't think about how this is for us, but don't mean badly. The best way to deal with the insensitivity of others I thin is to explain to them exactly how we are feeling. If they can't take that and support us, then they are shallow friends anyway.

I can feel your pain and wish of course there was something I could do to ease it. It sounds like your friend cares about you a great deal, but just can't deal with you carrying on . Perhaps you need to tell her how you feel about her blanking you.  If she is a good friend she needs to know that you need her support, not her cold shoulder.

Lots and lots of love and hugs from Bluebell, and really hope to be here to help you through this journey xxxxxxxxx


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## Ms Minerva

Wow! What powerful emotions this thread has brought up and how great it is that we have a place to safely voice them!

Jaydi, your post was so moving, maybe your friend is just trying to protect you from the heartache that a failed tx brings, but as you say, in the end it is your choice and your's alone whether you have any more treatment. I also agree with what you said about it being the not trying that hurts, because if you don't try, then you have no hope.

Bonnie - what a wonderful post, you are so eloquent, and put across your feeling so well.

Bluebell - I no longer tell my friends that I am having treatment, yes I do long for their support, but also I do not want their pity, hope that doesn't sound ungrateful but I sometimes feel like I walk around with a big placard round my neck saying "old and infertile, destined to have a lonely only child" 

I think that I will have one more go, just not yet, I just need a break from it, I need to decide one way or another and at the moment I am still in dithering mode.

Love to us all,

Jules
xxx


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## bluebell

Just to let you all know I am trying to get this thread formalised !  If it gets the go ahead, it will be a place we can all dip into when we are feeling we need to talk about feelings about giving up tx, whether or not we are at that stage or just worrying about how we might feel when we reach that stage.  Somehow I can sense from the responses so far, albeit so painful that many of them are, that it is something that is much needed !
Loads of love,
Bluebell xxx


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## MrsBunny

Hi Bluebell and everyone

Bluebell, I hope you get this thread formalised, I think we really need it!

Just reading your last post made me want to give you a bit of an update on my last post where I was saying that I think my DH thinks that going for our frosties next month is the final attempt and I'm not challenging him until we know the outcome. 
Me and DH had a big chat the other day as I was feeling really down and alone and felt like all the pressure was on me (as DH doesn't have anything to do this time!). He said that his job was to support me, but he also said that after this time we'd know one way or another what the future would bring us - pregnancy or other things like a change of job for me etc etc. I was biting my tongue, still not wishing to destroy the 'little world of hope' I've built up.
Well, at the weekend we saw some friends (a couple) who have been really supportive to us both in our journey and it's good as we know we can talk to them about anything. They asked the big question - what next if this attempt fails. I half expected DH to say "that will be the end" but he didn't - we both just looked at each other and I ended up saying that we'd have to talk about it. He didn't contradict me and nothing more was said on the subject. 
So my 'little world of hope' continues.

Jules, I know what you mean about not telling people. When I had the chemical pregnancy, I wished that I hadn't told anyone because it was awful telling people about failure when everyone had built their hopes up for us. But we all need support, although our friends may not truly understand what we are going through, and we find that most of the people that know about our tx don't mention it unless we do! It's awful when we think people look on us as desperate, but true friends would not think of us in that way.

Jaydi, your friend sounds as if she cares about you but as Bluebell says, is she a true friend if she doesn't respect what you want - it's such a big part of your life that it's very difficult to have a friend that doesn't respect what it means to you and shows that by 'blanking it out'!

Bonnie, your post was lovely. You are right about how tx affects a relationship, not just sex wise although that is something that is obviously affected when ttc, naturally or not. My DH is lovely, but I can't help thinking that, although we're very intimate and close soul mates, our relationship has not been the same since we decided to ttc and probably won't ever be the same, whatever happens. I could say that our journey has brought us closer in many ways, but the way it affects every day life cannot be undone. Although you may not think it, you are obviously a strong person to have gone through IVF alone (and were before that, living apart from your DP) and I hope that strength continues for you during your pregnancy and beyond.

Lots of love and luck to everyone
Mrs Bunny xxx


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## bluebell

Mrs Bunny, you are so thoughtful.  
I hope that your little world of hope continues and blossoms and that you end up with your baby in your arms soon.  You sound as if you have a lovely relationship with DH, and I can feel how much you respect him through not blurting out your feelings about not necessarily wanting to give up yet.
I still haven't mentioned anything to DH about not necessarily being able to accept it as the end yet.  I need to work through my feelings first, and also it is all still so raw that this would not be a good time to talk to him, so I am biting my tongue too !
Good luck with your FET !
Bluebell xxx


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## Jaydi

Bluebell!  I squealed when I read your slippy mountain analogy – I was saying EXACTLY the same thing to DH at the weekend!  You are so right.  It seemed to be that all my friends and family had nipped up the mountain to happy families land and they were at the top shouting down that DH and I shouldn’t keep going just because our path was slippery with a few rocks slides.  I have never described it like this before so I was thrilled to see your post.  And I loved the helicopter bit.  And even more the ‘sod the mountain’ yes that is very liberating indeed.

About support from other people - well not everyone looks at the world the same and some really don’t have the depth do they?  I was always looking for what was ‘underneath’ someone new in my life until I had some good advice one day -  a wise friend chuckled at me and said ‘You always think  people have hidden depths but actually with some people what you see is what you get – THERE IS NOTHING ELSE!’  What a revelation.  I guess those of us posting on FF are just naturally interested in supporting each other through EVERYTHING!  We are not afraid of reading difficult stories or asking difficult questions.  We feel everything deeply the good and difficult too.  I wonder if people who can’t allow themselves to think about anything difficult also have trouble being truly happy?  Are they a bit anaesthetised all over?

Yes Jules you are so right that it’s the hope that keeps us going.  I understand about your dithering mode too though (I can relate to that) – we often need time to replenish our energies don’t we?

Mrs Bunny it’s good to hear about your ‘little world of hope’ you describe it so well.  And yes it is so tough if we don’t get the support we crave.  I don’t think my friend even realises she puts on a ‘blank’ face when she can’t cope with what I’m saying.  Maybe I should video her??  No I wouldn’t do that.  But some people just don’t want to delve in and see what makes them tick do they?

I’m feeling a lot more positive today.  I had a great acupuncture session yesterday.  Well pretty sore - those ones round the toes OUCH! But I feel a lot better today.  She’s a wise woman too so it’s good to get a sound sense of perspective.  And someone who is really rooting for me which is such a boost.

I know I have only just started posting but already I’m bowled over by your empathy and tremendous support.  Much appreciated!

Bluebell you sound like you have a very special relationship with DH too.  You are having to work through your own feelings and you are tuning into what he wants too.  That sounds very special to me.

Love to everyone

Jaydi xxx


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## bluebell

Awwww, Jaydi ...  
Bluebell xxx


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## Martha Moo

Hiya Ladies

Just to let you know

A thread has been set up for the abroadies in the moving on section for those who are thinking of moving on and currently making the decision

Here is a link to the thread

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=113207.new#new

Emcee is the moderator of the moving on board and if you have any questions/issues am sure she will be happy to help 

Em


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