# Considering DE IVF for secondary infertility



## Smurf2

Hi
I was lucky enought to conceive my son naturally in 2007.  We then decided to TTC#2 in summer 2009. Fell pregnant in Dec 2009 but then waters broke at end of first trimester and had to go through the delivery at 16 weeks. At the time, awful as it was, I consoled myself with the fact that i could get pregnant again.  A few abnormal periods then led me to a consultant who performed a hysteroscopy which was all normal.  However, my bloods came back with very low AMH and borderline FSH. While my consultant said there was 'every chance' i could/would conceive again naturally, we talked about IVF and i decided to go for it - partly to see what my body was up to - were there any eggs to play with?
IVF i was on high dose of stimulating drugs and got about 7 follicles (probably not all the optimum size) and 6 eggs were retrieved. Then i got the news that none of my eggs had fertilised.  As far as hospital are concerned DH's sperm are just fine so i guess the issue isn't there. This only happened at the weekend so i'm waiting to hear anymore details from the consultant.
Anyway, i've already seriously considered donor eggs (which we would pursue in Spain), but my main concern is if we throw thousands of pounds at a cycle of donor eggs only to be disappointed. If I 'knew' it was going to work i'd be there straightaway, but don't want to waste money on my dream of having a second child. But of course if we don't try, how are we ever going to know? It's just that i know that it would probably be only one cycle (including freezing anything if we could) and i am starting to learn that in the world of ivf 1 cycle isn't always enough.


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## Mazza1971

Hi Smurf2 - Sending lots of       for your failed fertilisation.

We are in the same boat as you   . We conceived our DD naturally in 2006 (afterr 18 months and a miscarriage). We have been TTc No. 2 since June 2006 although we probably haven't really used any contraception since our DD was born. You can see from my signature that we have endured 1 IUI and 3 IVF cycles which although we did get a BFP it was shortlived. 

We are seriously considering DE treatment at Serum in Greece in September but I am terrified that it won't work and we only have funds for one go! My DH won't contemplate using embryo adoption as genetically the baby won't be connected to him or DD although we could probably afford 3 goes of this. In some ways this annoys me as I am supposed to accept that the baby would not be genetically linked to me but he couldn't comprehend that. Although I do think that it is different in the respect that the baby grows within you. 

If there was a guarantee that it would work I would also be there like a shot but something is holding me back and I am not sure what it is. Or should we just see if nature takes it's course   

Good luck with whatever descision you come too..

Mary xx


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## Smurf2

Thanks Mary.  It's hard to weigh things up for the decision of whether to keep pursuing the hope of no.2.  My gut feel is to go for it, as i don't want to regret it in the future, and as with most things to do with fertility, I'm learning that it's better to crack on rather than wait.  But at the same time i have to keep talking to myself about the prospect of not achieving this, and then having to accept and move on.  particularly difficult when i'm surrounded by my peer group who in the main have had no.2 with ease - and those that haven't are because they haven't got round to it yet or because they don't want another one.  Ironically, i even feel 'jealous' of a friend who couldn't conceive naturally and had three challenging rounds of ivf - her first go was unsuccessful but then rounds 2 and 3 of ivf worked so she got her two children.


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## Mazza1971

Hi Smurf - In the main most of my friends have had 2 or 3 with ease! However, I do have 3 friends who have had difficulty:-

1. Had IVF and conceived twins on her first attempt even though her FSH was high and her embryos were graded at 2. This was on the NHS. 

2. Conceived her DD on clomid but has had 3 miscarriages since. Hoever she is back under the NHS for fertility treatment i.e. to get clomid for 6 months but needs to get her BMI down below 30.

3. Conceived her DD naturally like me but after a long time. Has had 1 miscarriage since but no luck since and that was about 18 months ago.

So far I am the only one that has actively pursued paying privately for treatment. I know how bad this sounds but I know that I will feel really jealous if either do acheive a viable pregnancy. Not because I don't want them to have the joy of another baby but because I want to as well   . In some ways I feel it would have been better if I had 3 rounds of IVF on the NHS and then fell naturally as maybe I would just accept that my daughter is an absolute miracle...However, we then would have the funds to pursue donor egg without hesitation!

I agree if you have made the decision then the quicker you act generally the better the outcome and age is still on your side


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## marie57

Hi there Ive just made this very difficult decision to pay for IVF too.I have my 1st appt on the 3rd May.Its taken me over a year to come to terms with the fact I have blocked tubes (no one can explain why )At first I felt there was no way I could consider IVF due to the money and putting my body through more procedures,but as time has worn on Ive accepted my problem and now feel I have to know I tried everything to realise my dream.Life is to short to have regrets.I have 2 beautiful children, so it will only be 1 go and if it fails I plan to help me move on, to train to become a midwife which is something else Ive always wanted to do.I look at the money and it scares me but then I think some people may spend that on a new car or kitchen, to me its far more important to know I tried my best.If it dosn t happen then hopefully I will feel it was never meant to be for me.Lots of   to everyone on thier chosen paths.


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## Mazza1971

Marie57 - Good luck with your cycle. I      that it results in a


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## Jane D

Dear Smurf

Sorry only just seen your post.  It sounds like you are exploring the possibilities of deivf which is always an option and the beauty of it is that you do not have to rush into it at all as our own age is not significant.

Your thoughts mirror mine some 3 years ago.  We had given up on my eggs, as I had an FSH of 22 and limited cash left.  The odds for success with DEIVF abroad were very favourable and very worth the gamble.  We agreed we would try it once and then if not successful, end it there.  It is very possible that you will get success first time with DEIVF abroad as their success rates are a lot better than the UK.  If you would like any info on my experience as a person with one bio child who has done deivf in Spain you are most welcome to ask me as many questions as you like.

Wishing you well on your journey

regards

Jane


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## Smurf2

Jane - thanks for your post.  Yes, we are now starting our DE IVF journey with an initial consultation at Procreatec in Madrid this month.  Part of me feels 'selfish' for pursuing this because i would dearly love to carry another child - and of course i need to give consideration to my husband and child who are in the here and now.
I guess i know that DE IVF is the only realistic way for me to realise my hope of having another child as it was confirmed at my last clinic appt that the egg quality of all 6 eggs retrieved from me were very poor. So is some ways i'm very matter of fact in accepting that's the way it is.
My main concerns at the moment re. DE IVF are 1) maximising the chance of preg. success but minimising the chance of twins 2) hoping that a donor egg won't be too different from our family's characteristics as we already have our son.  So would be interested in your thoughts about these two points.


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## Jane D

Hello Smurf 2

You sound just like me.  I was quite accepting of DEIVF in quite a short space of time too.

You are very wise thinking through all these issues.  For us, we decided that we could handle twins if it happened and simply to maximise success, we opted for 2 embies to be replaced.  One was dividing very quickly, the other not so quickly.  I had a gut feeling only the fast divider would survive and i was right. It is all down to personal choice and circumstances, but a clinic with excellent stats would have a high chance of offering success with one embie. 

Madrid is a good place for a wide donor selection.  It is very possible they will have north European and East European residents or students as donors if you have specific requirements such as blond hair, blue or green eyes and pale white skin with pink/red pigment.  You are very wise to consider your child and I would say ask for a match to them as well as yourself.  Not wishing to scare you, but if you are very keen to have a very good match, I would be wary of Spanish donors as they can vary immensely.  A good illustration is to look at Spanish footballers.  You can get Fernando Torres and David Silva who are very pale skinned, then you have David Villa somewhere in the middle then very dark ones such as Pedro of Barcelona and the Wigan FC Manager Roberto Martinez and Barcelona FC manager Pep Guardiola.  If you do go for a Spanish donor, ask them if they can give details of the donors's parents too.  A fair Spanish donor may have a parent with very dark features resulting in a very olive skinned deivf baby.  I reckon this was the case with my donor as she was apparently pale skinned.  This can cause problems if you are not sufficiently prepared or want to keep the deivf status to yourself.  You are very wise thinking this through and if you need any further info, please do not hesitate to ask.  

Best of luck

Jane


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## Smurf2

Thanks Jane.  All 3 of us are fair skinned with dark hair so i shall make a point of discussing this at our appt.  We will certainly be trying to ensure that there isn't too much variance, but i guess when it comes to the crunch some of this will still be a gamble.


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## JBox

Hope you dont mind me jumping in but i wanted to ask Jane something. I have a beautiful 3.5 year old conceived naturally. she really is the best thing to ever have happened to  me. She is really so sweet, gorgeous and looks a real mixture of me and my husband and even her half sister ( my husbands daughter from previous marriage). I have had countless treatments and have been told to basically put my own eggs to bed as they are crap. In feb, i rushed into a de cycle. i spent a good few months crying shouting and asking "why me" a million times, while I  came to terms with it all and I did loads of reading, and even met up with a friend of my husbands who had just given birth to a de child, but I came to the conclusion that my desire to have another child outweighed the importance of the genetic / bio link. As all my drs had assured me that my ivf / iui failures were down to my crap eggs, i went into the DE cycle with the assumption that it would work no problems. I had 3 top grade embies put back in and was really excited about the idea of twins. somehow in my warped brain, i was thinking that at least the twins would have a genetic link to each other even if not to me! 
anyway it didnt work. 
I assumed that i would be doing another de cycle straight away ( long story but my clinic give you a "free" cycle if your first doesn't succeed) but my doc told me to have a break as i was going away for a planned family visit to the uk ( just got back yesterday). so i had a kind of "forced" time out and now have had loads of time to think about stuff. My cycle is in may probably around the 15th, giving me about a month. And I have started to freak out, bit like I did back in the days that I was told DE was the only way forward with me ( about a year ago). I am starting to panic about the whole genetic link thing, about not loving a de child like I love my bio child, about the comments people make. I mean I know that this cycle will probably not work ( I mean why should it, I have had so many negative cycles, that I really don’t hold out much hope!) but I would really love to know your honest feelings towards a de child after having your own bio child. I know I know I know, this is a loaded question and the answers are so emotionally charged and I hope you don’t mind me asking about this, but I am really starting to freak out again!!!

Thanks
x


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## Jane D

Hiya  JBOX
Sorry to hear that you have been on a considerable journey already with tx.

It may be more appropriate for us to pm?  You sound like you want to have a good long chat about this issue as it is very important when considering DEIVF.  I love my bio child and deivf child equally. The only problem I have is with the stupid things people say about my son not looking like me.  They cant be referring to his hair or eyes as they are the same colour as mine.  They always mean his skin tone.  If Lewis was as pale as a lily with his brown eyes and brown hair noone would ever say a word and noone would be any the wiser. 
Would you like me to pm you later?

Kind regards

Jane


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## JBox

thank you for getting back to me. would love to pm you.
I was just back for this family party and every single room i walked into with my little girl, someone made a comment about her looking just like me or my husband or how i looked when i was her age. and to be honest coz she is soooooooooo gorgeous i really didnt mind!! haha, but it did make me realise how "important" these things are to people and how will i cope with that if i have a de child? not only that, but there was a lot of talk of grandparents who are no longer with us, and family members etc and how this one inherited that characteristic / look / hair colour - i found it quite bewildering. my great grandfather died of diabetes and three of my first cousins and my sister have a child with diabetes and that was also the talk of the party, that we all have to check our kids for diabetes. i mean, i know its a good thing that if i have a de child she / he wouldnt inherit that, but it was just weird how the topic of conversations kept coming back to genes and family links etc. you see, i dont plan ( at this stage at least) to tell anyone about the conception and use of donor egg. My husband and i feel quite strongly that we will tell the child when we feel appropriate but other people really dont have to know. i dont want this child to be treated any differently to my little one today or to any of my sisters kids / cousins  etc etc. Maybe i would feel different if i even got pregnant and managed to maintain the pregnancy with a de but at the moment that is how i feel. 
did you have any concerns / worries about how you were going to feel after having had a bio child previously? and did you tell people around you? does it bother you when people say he looks different to you? i mean me and my husband are of the point of view that we are blessed to even be able to try and have another baby when 20 years ago this wouldn’t have been an option. I like to think that any child born to me would be raised with good values, and morals and would be in a secure,happy and loving family environment and that genes are really not that important. But sometimes, like today and this past week, I have complete and total freak outs and start to think that actually ( BECAUSE I have my little girl) any baby born with different genes and looks to me is a bit freaky. I know that anyone in this situation like yourself, has told me and will tell me that they feel no differently about the de baby to their bio baby, and I know in my heart of hearts I will feel the same, but I cant help but freak out at the moment.


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## babycrazy

Hi J
I have A DD & B&G twins from DE, I also have 7 bio children   . My DE children look just like there siblings, all 10 have same Dad! who must have strong genes as all seem to favour him.!. (long story why i have all these children but its a lot to do with suffering MC,s).
My DH is always commenting on my DD now age 3, that she has my box head like my other 3 DD and a lot of my mannerisms, she also a wondering eye when tired as i do, well DH says! i do, Spurs & Arsenal as he puts it,  one at home one away    ( don't worry,he get as much as gives)    . 
I did have some sparse moments in my first DE PG when i had a think about donor but not a moment when PG with my twins. 
Everyone knows that i had TX with DE, (age 51 & 54 at births) If i bring the subject up people always say, they look on the 3 LO,s as all mine and never see them as donor conceived.  This must be because you grow them inside you, people see your swelling belly, have all the excitement of a new life on the way with you and rejoice with you when YOU! give birth.
We love are little ones soooo much, they have brought so much joy into all our life's and many other,s besides, most of all they have dried my tears and healed my broken heart and i feel so lucky and so proud to have them. They are the best thing that's ever happened to me. It was 8 yrs from my last MC when i had my first DE baby, i wish i had discovered FF and info on conceiving abroad many years previous, perhaps it would of saved me many dark days and a lot of money spent in UK on consultations at MC & IF clinics & 2 x IUI TX  of which none picked up the problem that my thyroid was out of sinc, despite my suspecting it and mentioning symptoms  on a few occasions.  It was my clinic in CZ Rep that alerted me, I then got the drugs needed, I Had DE IVF x 2 TX and with steroids to counteract the issues i had, I got PG both times, that turned out to be happy occasions.

J  you don't say what age you are, but if you are under say 42 i would go and get tested for immune issues, start with level ones  of which could be done on NHS, pay particular attention to thyroid as still Dr's ar not recognising the importance of the levels needed to conceive and stay PG. (between 1.0 & 2.0m)  A lot of girls on Thyroid threads have got PG either Naturally or after many Failed TX, 1st go with thyroid meds and some other drugs to counteract this problem.
You can get all info you need on immune threads of test etc needed, Agate has produced a step by step guide that's so easy to follow.  I would also get Dr beers book mentioned, i feel you may have an immune problem especially with your history.
I was told age 34 it was my age why i had started to MC and developed problems conceiving, I was 42 when i had IUI with stim drugs and only produced 1 egg each time, again i was told it was my age. I  now know after doing my homework it was all down to this problem that easily could have been treated at a cost to NHS of a few £ s a month.

I hope also what i am about to say might help you that i truly believe Spiritually.

If there is a new soul waiting in heavens realms to become part of your family, then that spirit /soul has been predestined to your family, what overcoat the soul is wearing does not matter.!

Hope you find a way forward and most of all a light at the end of your dark tunnel.
Angel Blessings
XX
BC


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## JBox

H BC, 
thank you so much for getting back to me and sorry fro taking so long to respond. 10 CHILDREN - OH WOWOWOWOWOWWO! how amazing. 
I am 39 pushing 40 this summer and i went to dr g in london and am waiting for the results. i have done lots of own egg cycles and one de cycle ( 3 top embies) and not a hint of pregnancy, so maybe something will come out of the immune results ( altho without souinding cynical, but doesnt everyone find something when doing testing). 
anyway, i am pleased to hear that you feel no different about your de children, and taht they even look like their siblings... i know that once / if i get pregnant, i probably wont feel any different too. its just this bit beforehand... its so freaky!
was watching easenders last night ( we bit behind here) when alfie and kat were discussing using donor sperm and ivf  - they make it sound so easy, so lacking in issues... wish i could be so blase
anyway, thanks again 
dont know how find the time to even look at a computer, let alone write a response to anyone on ff with so many kids at home
xxx


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## babycrazy

Hi J
I have had my children over 3 decades , my 1st in 70s, 3 in 80s, 3 in 90s and 3 in 1st decade of 2000s. So i only have 6 at home 3 teens 2 boys that sleep in a hovel that are useless and a teen girl that is very willing and helpful, but paid well for her efforts.
I am on PC in the wee small hours, i have a good DH that gets up  with the babies so i can lay in on his days off.

You are still young, do you know what age your Ma had her menopause. My Mum had hers at 51 and had 8 children 3 of us age 36 37 38 and 1 at 43 with only 1 MC age 40. I started MC at 34 and had a job conceiving after this started,  i was used to popping them in first go.  I was  age 42 I had 2 rounds of IUI with gonal F or something of that kind and produced 1 egg each time. I looked at my med records and I now know why, it was my thyroid being under, this contributes to poor egg quality if indeed you can produce any, also pushes FSH up, Drs was told me i was perimenopausal. 
Anyway i hope they find a problem that is simple and cheap to fix, so that you can get that long awaited baby you yearn, save yourself some money by getting all test you can from your GP and get Dr G to look at them.
Many Angel Blessings
XX
BC


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