# Over 45 With Own Eggs?



## highlandgirl

Hi All,

Is anyone out there about to embark on the journey for the first time using their own eggs aged 45 or over?
I am just about to start IVF and would love to hear from anyone aged 45 or over using their OE for IVF or naturally trying for a baby?


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## Gemini40

Hi , my amh was same as yours at 39 so you are going good. My OE egg cycle got three eggs and none fertilized. With a low amh they don't expect big numbers and I was advised by the consultant that numbers matter in ivf. He told me if you can't produce lots of eggs you have a better chance of becoming pregnant naturally than by ivf. I then had a de cycle and the donor only produced three eggs and that went no where either. Your hospital should be able to give you the stats but from this forum it is de cycles most woman in this age bracket go for. If you go OE Argc is mentioned a lot as being good with the over 40s but I think they are very expensive. Good luck


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## Hopeful_one

Hi HighlandGirl,

I am in the same boat as you and wondered the same thing but never asked the question on FF.  I started my first cycle with OE using Natural IVF at Create and am waiting to hear the verdict on the whether the single embryo is suitable for freezing as we are on the 3-cycle package.  I had 2 eggs at collection but only 1 fertilised. Like you this is completely new to me and I have been reading all sorts of advice on what to do since age is against us but I wanted to at least give it a shot with OE before I considered other options.  Have you decided where to have treatment and what protocol you want?


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for reading and commenting 
It is rare it seems for anyone over 45 / low AMH to comment on this so its great to hear from you!
I will be 46 in 4 weeks and I start Short / Flare Protocol at GCRM on Tuesday. As far as we know neither of us have any issues DH sperm is good and I still have an AMH of 2.8.
I am a bit overweight but no other health issues so heres hoping!
Never had any treatment never been to hospital but I know its my age thats the issue 

Gemini - what stage are you at now?
Hopeful - Did you get 1 good egg the first time? thats really good 

x


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## Gemini40

Hi highland girl, I'm at the stage where I don't know what to do next lol. I have a review with consultant tomorrow to discuss last failed de cycle. Tbh I think her fertility wasn't much better than my own so it was a waste of money and emotional energy. I have wrestled with myself over taking dhea as it has produced some great results for over 40s. It will take me a year plus to save again for another cycle but I will try naturally during that time. If I go de again i would use a clinic which guarantees blasts, maybe ivf Alicante, who are linked to gcrm. It's just a lot to go through to come out with nothing at the end of it.


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## Hopeful_one

Hi Highlandgirl, the result of the first cycle is that we do not have a embryo suitable for freezing  
My AMH was normal, DH had SA and the results were fine as were my FSH - all normal (for my age I guess!).  Similar to Gemini I am contemplating additional supplements that may help improve results for cycle 2.  I am healthy and have a fairly good diet and am trying to exercise some more - even bought a bike!
Having received the news of the embryo I am feeling rather disappointed with things so far.....and my journey has just begin.


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## Blondie71

Mini ivf or clomid cycles seem to be a good option for older mums/lower Amh ladies but realistically a lot do move quickly to DE due to cost etc but if you can afford to try oe first why not!! Good luck x


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## Gemini40

I seen consultant yesterday and most of the conversation was about a new de cycvle option. However, I briefly asked about dhea for OE cycle and she said that there is some evidence that testosterone patches for two weeks can improve response. I am feeling a bit tempted but to go from de to OE cycle is probably unheard of


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Hope - we are the same my AMH is 2.8 which I was told is normal and DH SA is also normal. I take pregnacare for conception and DH takes well man conception we also both take vitabiotics omega 3 x 2 daily. 
I cut out caffeine except one cup first thing and we are trying to eat healthier. 
We have a lovely whippet fur baby so I have to walk everyday but since having my appt at GCRM I have put on 5 pounds! 
Gem - I think you need to do what it right for you whether it is OE or DE or back to OE - I have also heard about the DHEA and CO Q10 making a difference - I am hoping we are blessed first time round and haven't even thought about what happens if not we will see but I am ever hopeful ! ;0

I start norethisterone tabs on Tuesday this is the start of my treatment first time don't know what to expect really?
9 days tabs 5 day break for bleed then 14th back to clinic for prostap inj then home to start gonal inj then 1st scan on 21st sept. 
I never had a scan before just the AMH test so don't even what is going on in there to start with lol 😬😬

I have put on 5 bloody pounds since my first consultation appt raging at myself and I am not the weight I should be to start with! 
I have been listening to podcasts and heard one recently from the top doc at Mount Sinai fertility centre in USA who stated nothing else matters unless you have a healthy egg and healthy sperm not even diet or supplements etc so I guess we all just need to chill a bit and see if we can make these healthy eggs and our partners can make healthy swimmers on the day? 

I do feel this is a bit of a lonely journey as we haven't and won't be telling our families and I have only told a few friends who all have children so they don't really understand as none of them had any issues? 
X
X


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## Lily0750

Hi ladies,

Forgive me, I am not an expert but my understanding is AMH 2.8 might be normal for the age of 45 but is not good to expect good IVF results.
The other thing (again my understanding) the combination of AMH 2.8 and age 39 would have better expectations of IVF success that the combination of AMH 2.8 and age 45.
Also the success depends how good FSH is.

I wrote to ARGC when I just turned 45 and they replied saying they had no success with ladies over 44.

I was told by the Lister consultant to take DHEA and ubiquinol (Co Q10) for at least 8 weeks to see any improvement.


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Has anyone thought about PGS tests on their embryos? Or any other chromosomes tests done?
X


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## kittykatkins

Hi girls, I'm 44, 45 next month and am in my 2ww following icis with own eggs. I've been told it's unlikely to work, but I'm forever hopeful! X


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## Flyby

I had success at 44 with OE at Serum in Athens. There were a couple of people on here cycling around the same time as me who were 44 and 45 who were successful with their own eggs, one had twins (username justineb) and the other had a singleton (username HMB). I did a Clomid cycle and then had a FET on my successful round. Expect it to take a good few tries considering that maybe only one in ten embryos are viable at this age, but I'm sure it could possibly work with patience, enough money and emotional energy to keep on going! Good luck, Flyby x


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## kittykatkins

That's really encouraging flyby, thanks   x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Fly

Thank you so much for your positive response - I'm sure we all understand it's a lower chance but there is still a chance with our own eggs at this age and you are proof of that so thank you😍

Kitty - again another OE lady trying to achieve her dream thank you for sharing your story - sending you PMA vibes from the highlands - keep us posted and keep busy on your 2ww xx

Can I ask you both which protocol you were on and any tips you may have for anyone reading this using their OE? 

Xx


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## kittykatkins

Hi Highland girl. My 1st attempt was in UK, full ivf, LOTS of meds, I only had 2 follicles (I was asked if I wanted to cancel - no way!) I got 2 lovely eggs, and these both fertilised giving us Grade 1 embryos.   Transferred on day 2. (I felt this was too early, but they said better in than out!) BFN.
Now my 2nd attempt is in Czech. (A fraction of the price & clinic had been recommended) as I'd been a low responder they recommended mini ivf, so hardly any drugs (idea is to produce quality not quantity), so 75 Menopur every day and clomid for first  5 days, somehow had 10 follicles, but still only produced 1 egg. (But you only need 1) fertilised and a grade 1 embryo transferred on day 3... I'm now waiting... 
From reading about people's experiences mini ivf does seem to be getting encouraging results, especially in older ladies
X


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## highlandgirl

Hi kitty

Sending you positive vibes as you say you only need one egg! Keep me posted when is your OTD?
X


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## Blondie71

Yes I too saw some in 44/45 bracket at serum and a few twins in that too, as far as I know we were all on short flare protocol of menopur, puregon, decapeptyl & clexane plus steroid pill & 5mg folic acid hth


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## kittykatkins

OTD is 5th   x


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## esj

I'm 44 and about to embark on a 3 cycle natural modified package at Create after a failed short protocol at Guys last year. Have had 3 prior pregnancies which did not reach full term. These comments are giving me some much needed encouragement as have been about to throw the towel in lately. Wishing you all the best of luck too x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

If there are any other successful stories out there please share  

Gem & Hope - keep us posted on what you are thinking of next in this roller coaster journey xx

Kitty - how are you doing? Not long now till your OTD  everything crossed for you stay positive xx

Blonde - thank you for your post xx

Esj - welcome and thanks for joining us - I read a lot of good stories coming from create so here's hoping you will be another success xx keep us posted xx

I started my noresthisterone yesterday - till next Friday then break then gonal inj for 5 days then my first scan and bloods are 21st Sept - can't believe it's all started - nervous but excited😍xx

Ladies - I am so happy that we are all sharing as I really struggled to get any positive stories when I looked into starting our journey and you have all been an inspiration to myself and I'm sure everyone in a similar situation either reading this or joining in posting on this thread so thank you xx
Let's keep it positive and pray for juicy eggs and super swimmers xx


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## Hopeful_one

Hello again ladies,

I'm so glad to hear such positive stories. Since looking at forums all I've read are the failures rather than successes (or at least attempts) amongst the older ladies.

So after sulking for a while about the lack of an embryo for freezing first time round I've decided to wait a couple of months and see if I can improve egg quality. There is a lot of mention of DHEA and q10 ubiquinol does anybody have any suggestions or opion on if it's worth having and where to purchase from? 

Esj- I'm also at create would be interested to know how you get on with your cycle?

Sending you all positive vibes and looking forward to reading all of the successes!


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Hopeful - I bought Q10 from Amazon vitabiotics but I have read you need to take 300mg daily for it to make a difference? I also read about DHEA being good for the more mature mother to be but don't know so much about it? I did think about both but it was too late for me to start as I only had 19 days between my consents appt and starting tx so I didn't think that was enough time to make a difference?
I have been listening to podcasts and they have really helped as some are from USA clinics where they seem to be very advanced in the field of IVF etc I just download them free from ITunes








I believe Q10 helps the development of Mitochondria which are the energy cells inside the developing embryo but you would need to research that to be sure xx

If any of you are near London I really think you should check out the Zita West clinic as that is where I had my AMH tested - they seem to be at the top of their game. I have the book and CD and they are great x
They test for immune deficiency and all sorts xx

Keep sharing xx


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## Blondie71

Have a read up on melatonin for egg quality too as that seems to be having some benefit too.


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## Hopeful_one

Highland- thanks for the iTunes podcasts I will definitely be downloading those.  I already do acupuncture though I only started just before tx began. I am having it fortnightly at the moment.

When we were researching clinics we did attend ZW open evening but tbh I thought they were trying to get you to buy their vits and supplements  and get you to sign up for 3-6 months of preliminary investigations and monitoring before starting tx. I wasn't too keen on that considering time is not really on our side and both me and OH have fairly good diets and reasonably healthy.

Blondie - I've heard melatonin mentioned in a few posts but know very little about how it helps?


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

How are we all? 
Another nugget from a podcast yesterday more protein in the diet - between 25-40% of your diet helps you to have better quality eggs however this needs to happen for 2-3 months before EC as that is how long the egg takes to fully develop.
Anyone following any specifics when it comes to food? I think I have already mentioned all I have done is put on weight since my consents appt which is not good😬😬😬😬

Xx


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## kittykatkins

Morning highland girl, you were up early! 
I hate eating fruit and veg so got myself a nutrabullet. EASY way to get your 5 a day in a smoothie. There are lots of fertility recipes on line. I added maca and protien powder to them. Included things like advocado, pomegranate and pineapple.  
Drink lots of water, bizarrely I found using a sports water bottle meant I drank more than just pouring a glass of water.  
A few tips that my acupuncturist gave me were make sure your 1st drink of the day is simply hot water (you can add lemon if you want) and always have a hot breakfast. (that may be more for once you've had egg transfer). Oh and eating eggs is good. I've also been eating lots of Brazil nuts to make the lining sticky!


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## kittykatkins

I'm afraid I don't have good news this morning, otd and it's BFN


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Oh no Kitty I'm so sorry to hear that 

Xx


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## Hopeful_one

Evening ladies,

Kitty - so sorry to hear the result from you.  Sending you hugs  

I've been doing more reading and some have suggested that a 'warm womb' helps but not sure which part of the tx.  Particularly in TCM they treat this through acupuncture which could explain the moxi combustion treatment my therapist does.  I have ordered my Q10 and am awaiting it's arrival though I'm unsure what dosage you have to take and for how long?  Any suggestions welcome.  I have also started trying to eat more organic where possible but especially veg, meat and dairy so I hope that will help.

Keep posting ladies, sending you all positive vibes. xx


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

Quick question - I am on flare protocol started on day 19 of cycle took norethisterone for 11 days and stopped on Friday night but no AF yet ? Due to have prostap inj on Wednesday and start stim inj on Friday!
Eek😬😬


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi ladies - *Highlandgirl*, thank you so much for starting this thread.

I'm in a similar position, except I'm afraid that I seem to be older than everyone on here, having just turned 47  It would be great if I could get my head around using donor eggs, but I can't. I have a (naturally conceived) 3 year old DD, so I find the whole issue of donor eggs to be fraught with difficulty. This despite being bombarded with statistics/pressure on the point, but just really upsets me and I can't/won't do it (so sue me).

My main regret is that we didn't proceed straight to IVF when she was 6-8 months old, but instead wasted LOADS of time trying naturally, with an undiagnosed male factor issue as it turns out (DP has developed a problematic level of anti-sperm antibodies) - so it was always going to be utterly pointless. So here I am.

*Highlandgirl* - I don't have any experience of either of the meds you mention - Norethisterone or Prostap. Do you have a contact phone number for the IVF nurses at your clinic? If you're turning 46, I'd say your AMH of 2.8 is pretty good. I hope your cycle goes well - I look forward to reading your update?

*Lily0750* - Interesting that you say you wrote to ARGC when you turned 45 and they said they had had no success with ladies over 44. I'm assuming that you chose not to cycle with them after that? It's a bit of a vicious circle though isn't it. No one is pretending that it isn't harder to conceive aged 45 and over, but if everyone in that age group is essentially being turned away from ARGC (and elsewhere) then they're NEVER going to push the boundaries of their successful age groups are they! What are you trying now?

*Kittykatkins *- so sorry to read of your BFN from your recent ICSI cycle in Czech Republic. It's a lot of time, effort, emotional energy and money, isn't it, for it to be unsuccessful. Have you decided when and where (or perhaps whether) you're cycling again?

*Hopeful_one* - very interested to read that you are trying a multi-cycle package at Create. Was it a completely 'natural' cycle or the 'natural modified' option? You say you had 2 eggs retrieved but only 1 fertilised - did you use ICSI? I'm really sorry that the embryo wasn't suitable for freezing. Did they offer you a review consultation with a consultant? I understand that in the event of a failed cycle this should be free of charge.

I notice you say you are having a couple of months to try to improve egg quality. Have you read the book: *"It Starts with the Egg: How the Science of Egg Quality Can Help You Get Pregnant and Prevent Miscarriage" by Rebecca Fett, (25 Mar 2014)*. It's available from Amazon (and/or on Kindle). I think it has some good, scientifically-based guidance on supplements. It includes a recommendation for DHEA at 3 x 25mg daily and CoEnzymeQ10 in the form of Ubiquinol at 300mg daily.

I am particularly interested as I've just done the first of a multi-cycle IVF package at Create myself. (Perhaps more in hope than expectation, but my desire for another child is not going away - it's desperately painful - so what else can I do?) This was a natural modified cycle: a low dose (150 iui) of Gonal F from days 5 - 9, Cetrotide from days 6 - 10, with Ovitrelle trigger on day 10. I retrieved 2 eggs, both fertilised with ICSI. Only one of the embryos met the criteria for freezing - and ONLY JUST scraped the criteria at that (6 cell, grade 2 on day 3) so I'm pretty pessimistic about the prospects for that poor little one.

I'm hoping to try the second cycle after my next AF (so sometime after 19 September) but I want to talk to them about trying 'mild stimulation' for at least one of the cycles. I did mild stims at the Lister in January and at least the embryos LOOKED better (8 cell, grade 1 on day 3), although they weren't, sadly.

Hoping to hear from some of you soon, perhaps.


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## Hopeful_one

Hi Besides_the_seaside

My tx was 'natural modified' with ICSI and same meds as you.  I did not know that a free consultation was available after a failed cycle - I will contact them and see I can arrange one.  I was called on day 3 to be told that they wanted to monitor the embryo until day 6 and then decide if it was good quality for freezing - sadly it wasn't  

Yes I have heard of the book - it's on my reading list.  Thanks for the dosage info to - I have started ubiquinol but am still procrastinating about taking DHEA due the side effects that I have read about.

Which Create clinic are you at?  I'm at St. Paul's.  This might be a dumb question but what is the difference between 'mild stims' and 'natural modified' - they both sound similar to me?  

Highlandgirl - how are you getting on with your tx?


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## Lily0750

Hi Beside_the_seaside, 
Yes, I have decided not to cycle with ARGC. Create and then Lister consultants said that with my AFC/AMH/FSH results donor eggs would be the best option.
Among Testimonials at Create website there is one 46 years old woman who had 21 follicles.
According to Lister pregnancy calculator 4% of women with FSH <10 and AMH> 3.1 had life births.

Unfortunately, my FSH>10, AMH<3.1 and AFC was just 4, so very little chances of life birth.

I have been taking DHEA and ubiquinol for over three months but decided to go for tandem cycle to Cyprus to maximize chances to have a healthy baby.

I am not sure if I have strong enough nerves to go through multiple IVF cycles.

Maybe in 10-15 years time scientists will find the ways to reverse eggs aging.

I consider myself lucky that I live in modern time and have options of IVF or DE. Thirty something years ago women with low ovarian reserve, endometriosis or immune issues had no chances to get pregnant.


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Not great at trying to go back over personals so if I missed you out or forgot something accept my apologies  

Lily - Good luck with your trip to Greece I also read the ladies testimonial from create with the 21 follicles I think she only had 1 embryo put back and still had a live birth so there is hope yet!
We were given 3-4% chance by our consultant but I say someone has to be the % so why not us?

Hopeful - When are where are you tx next?

Beside - Thank you for your comments and very detailed post which I love   
We discussed everything before starting on this journey and decided against DE or Adoption so it only leaves us with this tx and we will see what happens next ....
My friend in New Zealand had 6 rounds of IVF and now has DE twins so I know that works for some people xx

Kitty - Just checking you are ok?

ESJ - Keep positive and read through all the great tips and advice from these lovely ladies on this thread xx

I stopped my DR pills on Friday and thankfully started the bleed - sorry if that is too much info   on Monday - back to clinic yesterday which is a 3.5 hours train journey away for my DR Prostap inj yesterday.
Start my self inj Gonal F tomorrow and then back to clinic next Wednesday for 1st scan and bloods so now I feel like it's all happening !
We have had to tell white lies and say we are on a training course but I'm sure my family don't believe you have to go up and down on a train that much in a fortnight - just need to keep up the undercover work a bit longer


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi ladies -

I'm currently in the 2 weeks post-egg collection, although nothing transferred back (one dubious looking embryo in freezer) and I'm finding it VERY tough going. Perhaps it's PMT, or the after-effects of the stimulation drugs (however 'low dose' they were supposed to be) but I can't help feeling miserable and keep coming over all weepy  !

*Highlandgirl *- How exciting that you're on your way with the Gonal F! Wishing you all the very best for your cycle. I remember an IVF consultant I saw several years ago, before I had my daughter, who stressed how important it was to force yourself to stay positive. I quote, she said, "we've no idea why or how it makes a difference to your success, but we've noticed that it does".

Good plan for the white lie of telling the family you're on a training course! Obviously, as soon as you've told anyone you're doing IVF, their logical next question is, 'so how's it going/when will you 'know'?' - or otherwise they risk looking uninterested in the outcome, don't they. You don't need any _additional _pressure. Now having said that (as I don't know you!) do you mind me asking how many iui of Gonal F you've been prescribed? Yes, I'm weirdly fascinated by protocols!

*Lily *- as regards the stress trying multiple IVF cycles - I figure it's easier on the nerves if it involves trying to freeze (or 'bank') embryos from a couple of treatment cycles. I suppose because it puts off the day of finding out whether it's worked  . I don't deny I'm terrified of the prospect of getting pregnant and going through another agonising loss, but at the risk of sounding trite, you've just got to be in it to win it ...

I know next to nothing about tandem cycles, but it certainly sounds intriguing! I wish you all the best of luck, of course, and will be very interested to read your updates. If you have one or more embryos/blasts from your own eggs, will they prioritise those for transfer - and freeze the donor ones for a future FET perhaps? How many will you have put back?

*Hopeful_one* - Yes I'm at *St Paul's* too; perhaps we have already passed each other in the waiting room! Although I don't live in London and none of the Create clinic locations are particularly convenient for me. If I could have afforded it, I probably would have gone back to the Lister. However, I wanted to give myself more than just one further TX cycle and to be blunt, Create worked out very slightly cheaper (although not by very much) over more than one cycle. 
But if I didn't also have a 3 year old to consider, I'd be very tempted by Serum in Athens, as they do seem to be quite inventive and thoroughly individualize their treatment protocols - that's just my (not particularly well-informed) impression though.
In the end, I just think you have to pick SOMETHING and go with it. Anything would've been better with us than dilly dallying around trying naturally, whilst completely in the dark about the undiagnosed male factor issue. 

As regards *DHEA *- I've now spoken to a couple of fertility consultants about it and both were of the view that whilst it's not considered to be categorically proven to help (I think this is due to the ethics/difficulties in recruiting sufficiently large numbers of volunteers to a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial) it wouldn't hurt. The advice was to try it if I wanted to (they didn't really push the issue), and if any side effects were experienced, then just to stop taking it. Any side effects were probably unlikely to occur, but if they did would be likely to be mild and reversible upon stopping the medication.

On the difference between "*mild stimulation*" and "*natural modified*" treatment cycles - the first one is basically slightly more drugs, for slightly longer, than the latter. The "mild stimulation" is basically a pretty conventional short protocol, stimulated cycle, which ideally would aim to retrieve around 5 - 8 eggs. (I think Create use the term "mild" to emphasise that giving very high doses of drugs to anyone is not their thing.) Initially they discussed with me doing 225iui Gonal F from day 2, but when I didn't have so many antral follicles as on a previous scan, they suggested the "natural modified" protocol, which (by using lower doses of drugs for a shorter time) would only aim to collect 1 - 2 eggs. The theory being why give higher level doses of drugs if there aren't sufficient follicles available to stimulate in the first place. 

I do have a few questions on the plan going forwards, so I've booked a review consultation for next week as my head's in a bit of a spin with it all.

Hope everyone else is OK - *Kittykatkins*?

*Highlandgirl *- thank you again for setting up this space. It's a relief just to be able to 'talk' about things even on a forum. DP and I have decided to tell no-one about having another try, mainly because we predict noone would be in the least supportive, but hey, it's our life and has to be our decision ...

It would be nice to hear from anyone else who may be reading and lurking? We surely can't be the only handful of people _in the world _who are trying OE at 45 and over!

Seaside x


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## kittykatkins

Good luck *highland girl*. Let us know how the scan goes x
*BesideTheSea* whats your plan re your frozen embryo?
Well we're going to try one more time with oe.... Mini ivf again... In Oct if AF plays ball, if not then Nov.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Kittykatkins* - It's good that you're trying again. Are you going back to Czech Republic for your mini-IVF? Which clinic are you at?

Re my frozen embryo - honestly I have very little hope for it as it was only 6 cells on day 3 when ideally should have been at least 8 (although they do consider any 6 - 10 celled embryos for freezing, depending also on the grading/degree of fragmentation). The plan is - or at least _was _- to do a couple more cycles and try to get at least one embryo good enough for freezing each time. Then hopefully pick up to three embryos to transfer back in a FET procedure. I'm seeing the consultant next week for a review though. I know it's a terribly long shot but of course I would LOVE it to work!


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## esj

I commented on this thread earlier- I'm 44 and starting a 3 cycle package at Create this week. Am feeling a bit confused on the subject of DHEA and would appreciate other opinions.
I considered taking DHEA a couple of months back and had some bought for me in the US and even took a low dose for about a week but our consultant feels there is no evidence of it increasing chances of a live birth. Also the bottle I have states: DO NOT USE IF YOU ARE PREGNANT NURSING OR OF CHILDBEARING AGE' in block capitals which really put me off! Some reports seem to suggest it can encourage cysts which could affect treatment too. What are everyone's thoughts? Obviously I'd like to do whatever I can to boost my chances but I'm not sure DHEA is worth the gamble.


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## highlandgirl

Sorry ladies very quick post I took my first gonal f 300 injection last night and now have a migraine has anyone else had this side effect?? Help!


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## Beside_the_seaside

ESJ - Firstly - best of luck with your first treatment cycle! I've seen a few DHEA threads on here; plenty of differing opinions.

I've tried to read up a bit about DHEA. Personally I found useful some of the information on the website of CHR (Center for Human Reproduction) in New York, who claim to have been the instigators of DHEA in fertility treatments. https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/services/infertility-treatments/dhea/whatis/
CHR recommend taking a dose of 3 x 25 mg daily until the second normally rising pregnancy test, serum B-HCG, but this would occur at about the same time as a urine HPT would show positive.

See also the brief discussion of DHEA on page 2 of this leaflet from the Lister in Chelsea: http://ivf.org.uk/images/downloads/Lister-Fertility-Clinic-low-ovarian-reserve.pdf

As I said previously, the advice I had was to take DHEA, if I wanted to, but stop if I felt that I was experiencing any adverse side effects, although these weren't anticipated to be particularly likely to occur.

If you are doing 3 freeze all cycles, then you won't _actually _be pregnant will you, at least until after your FET(s). Therefore, I would have thought that you could stop the DHEA after your last egg collection, without worrying at all, as by then it would have done it's job - and you wouldn't be taking it whilst pregnant. As regards cysts, I vaguely recall reading somewhere (not from CHR) that it might interfere with ovulation, which perhaps would encourage cysts, I shouldn't have thought that need be a concern with ART as the clinic will control your ovulation with drugs (hold it back then trigger it) in any case.

If a personal anecdote is worth anything, I can tell you that I had taken DHEA for 6 weeks when I found that I had fallen pregnant naturally with my daughter. For two weeks of that time I was actually pregnant, but hadn't yet been able to confirm it. She has just turned 3 and mercifully is in robust health, >95th centile in height and is apparently (somehow) turning into a bit of a clever clogs. I doubt the DHEA had long enough to do any good, but nor did it appear to do any harm either.

As with so many things, it's a very personal decision, so you've obviously got to make up your own mind how you feel about it. For my part - this is my last ditch attempt to throw the kitchen sink at this, so yes I'm taking it.

Seaside x

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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* -

I don't recall headaches from Gonal F, but didn't have quite so much (225 iui daily in January and only 150 iui daily in my more recent cycle). However, I did have an absolutely banging migraine headache after the Ovitrelle trigger shot, both times .

Perhaps as it was your first injection it could be a product of the change in hormones and will settle. But for anything like that I would call your clinic's out of hours phone number and talk it through with one of the clinicians - I think they would probably expect you to ring if you were worried about anything and hopefully they'll be able to reassure you.

I'd be interested to read of others' experiences with injectables though?

Best of luck x


----------



## esj

Beside_the_seaside - Thanks so much for the balanced feedback and information. I'm still pondering, will decide this week whether to take it. Good luck with everything xx


----------



## Hopeful_one

Hello again ladies!  So glad this thread is still going and also so grateful for the information and support.

Seaside - it would be funny if we were in the waiting room at the same time. Lol. 
I'm still undecided about when to start my 2nd tx of the multi cycle.  I was thinking of doing it next month but now I'm thinking maybe I should wait till November since I have no embies from first cycle.  And I've only just started taking extra supplements and made a few more changes to my diet, from what I've read it takes approximately 3 months to make any difference.  I'm also taking a trip to the US soon and might pick up some DHEA. Whether I take it or not is another matter entirely!

ESJ - I totally understand your DHEA dilemma. I've had my first cycle at Create and unfortunately no luck with any frosties.  At my consultation I was advised my best option was DE but wanted to try everything before I threw in the towel with DE.  We are late starters of IVF and neither OH or I have kids but we would both love to have a miracle.

Highlandgirl - I recall feeling 'bloated' but no headaches or migraines during my first cycle but I was on lower dosage (150 iui) so maybe that makes a difference. I was so frightened of injecting the meds that I asked my OH to "supervise" in case I did it wrong. I also had acupuncture during stims so maybe that helped. 

To any of you ladies at Create in London if you want to meet up for a chat/coffee then please PM me as I live in London.  We have decided not to tell anybody so this forum is like a lifeline!

Looking forward to reading more updates - Kitty/Lily hope all is well with you both?

Sending you all babydust 
xx


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Hopefulone * -

There's a brand of DHEA called 'Fertinatal' that is recommended by the Center for Human Reproduction (CHR) IVF clinic in New York and is presumably the same brand that has been used in their research. (I say 'recommended', I think they make money out of it somehow, via licences/whatever.) Anyway, although it is comparatively expensive, like $70 USD per month, it's the one I'd take if I could get my hands on it (especially as it's not a very long-term thing is it!) but they won't ship it to the UK. However, if I were visiting family in the USA, or even staying in a hotel for a while, I'd get it shipped there to pick up:

https://fertilitysupplementstore.com/fertinatal

I can totally sympathise with the emotional pressure of keeping things to yourself. We're not telling anyone either. We told close family and a couple of friends about our IVF in January, which we regret, as we were of course heartbroken that the pregnancy ended with us needing to TFMR. Particularly as a couple of those people we had told were quite bizarrely unsympathetic to our loss ... Needless to say, we're telling NO ONE now - well apart from my mum and that's only to explain any emergency nursery pick-ups that may be needed for our 3 year old.

I sometimes find other forums/threads pretty tough going too. People flouncing onto 40+ threads aged 39 1/2 "panicking" about having "left it too late" (at least those ladies with no other good reason for concern whatsoever) are likely to give me the rage! Sorry if that offends anyone, but it just makes me want to scream that my mum didn't think twice about having a baby aged precisely 40 in the 1970's without even so much as an ultrasound! But it's the lack of self-awareness really. Like barging into a Slimmers World meeting as a size 10 and fretting loudly that you're fat. You just wouldn't would you?

And breathe ... Good luck everyone!

Seaside x

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Syd72

Ladies I just wanted to say a tentative hello, I'm new to the forum.  Got pregnant for the first time at the end of July, naturally. Turned out to be a blighted ovum and I miscarried last week. It has now been suggested that I go straight to IVF. I had never considered it before due to finances but I've just moved to Asia and it's now covered by my private health. I still spend a lot of time in the UK so I have booked an initial appointment at the Lister at the beginning of October. I'm still not 100% if I want to go that route, just trying to gather info at the moment. I'm also looking at doing it in Bangkok.

I'm 44, amh a year ago was 9.9 and fsh is 5.9. OH is 52 and has a child by a previous relationship.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - So sorry to read about your loss. If you have the opportunity to do IVF at the excellent Lister whilst covered by your private health insurance then please DO IT. Your AMH is enviably good - I think much better than average for your age - so that will probably help. Honestly, I do wish someone had hit me over the head with a bat and told me to crack on with IVF aged 44 instead of messing about thinking somehow it would happen naturally ... If you are considering IVF at all then really the sooner the better IMHO. 
Seaside x


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## Syd72

Thanks beside the seaside.


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## Hopeful_one

Seaside - I think I will definitely look into the DHEA before I go stateside. Thanks so much for the info.

To tell or not to tell? The great dilemma! I would love to have someone in the family to talk to about this but unfortunately none of them would understand what we are going through......though strangely my eldest sibling had 2 sons using IVF but that was almost twenty years ago and so much has changed since then!

Completely agree with you about the "panicky 39'ers"! Yes I do get frustrated when some of these ladies have nothing to worry about in the slightest. Like you we wasted a couple of years doing the "natural" route and we were already in our mid-40's by then nor had any tests for investigations or baseline stats. Buy hey we are here now and have started the IVF journey  Talking of figures, the other thing I get confused about is how AMH is measured between different clinics i.e. pmol/l or ng/ml, depending on which you have used you get very different values and so can be good/bad. Mine was 8.7 pmol/l but is 1.2 in ng/ml - so is that good or bad?? According to my clinic it's 'normal' for the age bracket. Anyway I have decided not to obsess about stats....at least not for now!

*Syd* - firstly hugs to you for your loss, and secondly welcome to the thread - we are a motley bunch but here to support each other. It's great news that your medical insurance is covering the cost of IVF, I wish I could get my company to do that! I would agree with *Seaside* that Lister is a great choice - we couldn't stretch our finances that far. Hopefully you won't have the same lady as we had when we went for an open evening - she was so 'clinical' which put me off.

Good luck to you (and everyone else) whatever you decide and we are all here to support and offer encouragement as much as we can.

xx


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## highlandgirl

Good Monday Morning Ladies!

Hope - your AMH is better than normal I would say mine was 2.8 pmol in April test done by mail at Zita West as there are no clinics where I live to perform this test so had to send my bloods there and then I had the rest of bloods done by GP.

Beside - Let us know how your review meeting goes this week?

Lily - Not long till your Greece trip!

Esj - Keep us posted!

Kitty - Sending you positive vibes from the highlands  

Syd - Welcome! There are lots of great stories and tips if you read the thread from the start.
That is great news that your insurance covers tx and you have a great AMH so fingers crossed for you  

Update - The migraine lasted all Saturday night but is now gone and I feel fine thank god!
I am now on day 4 of gonal f and don't mind the injections at all but I have some belly fat so they are not as sore as I thought they might be    
Clinic on Wednesday for first scan and bloods this is what I have been waiting for since I started tx as I never had a baseline scan as my clinic no longer do these so I have absolutely no idea what's going on in there but I hope it's all good  
When we were trying naturally I did ovulate and used clear blue digital kit and I could feel my ovaries so I'm hoping that's a good sign that there are juicy eggs growing lol lol xx


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## Syd72

Thanks for the welcome everyone.

Hopeful, I'm glad you asked that question about amh, I've been wondering as I've been reading through the boards.  My understanding is that they usually measure in pmol/l in the UK, mine at 9.9pmol equates to 1.38.  That was well over a year ago when I was 43 and they told me it was low in the grand scheme of things but very good for my age, I think they said equivalent to a lady of around 35 although I might not have remembered that correctly.

Could someone just tell me what tx stands for?  I've been on another forum for a long time so I'm familiar with all the usual af's, dtd's, otd's etc but tx is slightly eluding me.  I'm assuming treatment but just wondered specificially.  Sorry to be thick.

Very best of luck to you all, I'll be following your stories with interest and with everything crossed!


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## highlandgirl

Hi Syd

Tx is treatment I have fallen into the trap of abbreviations sorry!

X


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## Syd72

Thanks  

No that's fine, I figured it was but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.


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## Altai

Ladies

Good luck with your treatment cycles.
It's so inspiring to see us oldies trying with oe.
My nephew was conceived naturally at 45. I suppose luck and both parents' expectations had already children from previous relationships. 

Can't help with dhea - tried it did nothing for me (except greasy skin and hair loss). 
Best of luck will keep fx for you all.

A.


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## highlandgirl

Hi Altai

Welcome to the thread  
I'm so glad there are more of us coming forward to tell our stories at this age with oe too!
Can't believe I will be 46 on Saturday and our wedding anniversary is on Sunday so it would be great if EC was on Monday so we can have the night away on Sunday - will keep you posted x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

It's fair to say I'm at a pretty low point emotionally, but thought I would share something I try to use to keep myself going!

The link below is for the UK Office for National Statistics (ONS), to their dataset: Live births in England and Wales by characteristics of mother:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/datasets/characteristicsofmother1englandandwalesreferencetables

I think it's worth taking a look at "*Table 2: Live births by age of mother and registration type, 1938-2013*"

So for example, you can see that *between 1938 and 1948*, there was an average of *over 2,000 births* (actually 2,092 births) *per annum to women aged 45 and over*. The highest number of births to women aged 45 and over was in 1947 (2,223 births) - men returning from the war?

After that, the trend is for a decreasing number of births in the 45+ age group year on year, reaching it's lowest point in 1977 (454 births)- due to contraception / social change? By 2013, it's back up over 2000 (2,010 births), but given the results from the pre-IVF days of the 1930's and 1940's, they can't ALL be due to IVF - and particularly IVF with donor eggs - surely?

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Beside_the_seaside

So here's my little bit of disappointing news. Having just done a 'natural modified' cycle of IVF (150 iui Gonal F daily on cycle days 5-9), with one dubious quality embryo frozen on day 3, I had hoped to start my second natural modified cycle straight away - i.e. on my cycle day 5 after my period. I went for my scan yesterday (actually on day 4) and I have one haemorrhagic cyst on each ovary. They're not sinister, just by products of the last stimulated cycle. But what concerns me is that perhaps as a result of the reduced visibility (I've no idea really, I was too shocked to take it in) I have only ONE follicle at baseline. Yes ONE in one ovary and ZERO in the other. Needless to say I am skipping this month - it's excruciatingly disappointing.

Of course I don't expect lots of follicles - just enough to have a fighting shot. At last month's baseline scan I had 6 follicles in total, and at the pre-IVF assessment scan the month before, only 5. Last year I had 10-13 and perhaps those days are gone now , but I am PRAYING that I have at least a couple more next time. Perhaps someone will please come along and re-assure me with a story of AFC bouncing back a little bit post-stims!

*Altai* - I was interested to read your signature, re mini-IVF in Moscow. Is that something you're still doing? Which clinic is that and what sort of protocol are you on? Wishing you the best of luck of course!

*Highlandgirl* - Happy birthday and wedding anniversary for the weekend! Hopefully your egg collection will bring you a slightly belated best present ever! How is your cycle going?

*Hopeful_one* - When is your USA trip? Work or holiday? Hope it does you the power of good!

Waves and good luck to everyone else
Seaside x


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## Lily0750

Beside_the_seaside, sorry about your disappointing news. What do doctors sa about cysts? Do they need to be removed surgically? Have you tried CoQ10 (ubiquinol) or DHEA to improve AFC?

Highlandgirl, happy birthday and wedding anniversary. Best of luck with EC on Monday.

Afm, my periods should have started today but still no sign. I had two cups of parsley tea yesterday and one more this morning. Going out at lunchtime to buy lemon and turmeric. If periods do not start till evening I will have a hot bath.
Does anyone have any other suggestions how to induce the periods?


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily* - re my ovarian cysts, no, they're not the type that might need surgical removal, they should go on their own. If they're still there at the beginning of next cycle, consultant said he would put me on the pill or something, to try to get rid of them. I'm just hoping that these cysts could possibly be the reason, somehow or another, that my AFC has fallen through the floor this month? Hopefully - please God - my AFC will come back a bit.

Yes, I've been taking Co-enzyme Q10 in the Ubiquinol form and also DHEA for a couple of months. Although I've been far too hit and miss so have rarely managed 3 x daily. I need to get a grip and take it properly.

Re your AF: I wouldn't have thought there's anything much you can do to induce an AF earlier than it'll come anyway? If tea was going to do anything then perhaps try Raspberry Leaf tea - isn't it thought to perhaps help to induce uterine contractions? I think there's also a tablet that can be prescribed to women who haven't had a period in ages to try to induce menses, but I can't remember what on earth it's called (begins with 'P' perhaps?) - sorry that's no help is it! Unless your period is very late, I'd try to relax, it'll happen. Why the anxiety though - are you waiting to travel to Team Miracle, Cyprus? In which case, how exciting!


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## Syd72

Beside_The_Seaside, I'm really sorry you've had bad news today.


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## kittykatkins

Hello ladies, I've not been on here for a week or so, so just catching up. Well I'm now officially 'Over 45 with own eggs' as it was my birthday at the weekend.

*Highland girl *and fellow Virgo! How are you doing? When is your ec planned for?

*BesideTheSea* on my 1st attempt I only had 1 follicle on each side, still produced 2 mature eggs which fertilised. So don't be out off by low numbers... It only takes one 

*Lily* I've just learnt on another thread that hot baths, red wine and daily high dose of vitamin C can help bring on af

Hello everyone else x x x


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## Lily0750

Thanks kittykatkins and Beside_the_seaside.
I had a hot bath yesterday, ate one lemon and had one cup of parsley tea.
It feels like the periods are about to start but still no blood flow. 
Wil get another lemon at lunchtime and maybe cranberry juice.
Hopefully tomorrow can be counted as 1st day. The clinic coordinator said the treatment should still be on schedule. I have changed flights though as I prefer to have more days to relax after transfer before flying back. I have the paranoia that I will forget and lift my suitcase somewhere and ruin all treatment efforts.


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## Syd72

Ladies can I ask what might be a really stupid question?

I'm desperately trying to work out when I may be able to start treatment, due to my travel schedule I tend to spend a few weeks here then a few weeks in Asia. I've been trying to find a "typical" long protocol schedule to work out roughly how long the down reg part is, how long stimming etc but I can't seem to find anything. I'm guessing that's because it doesn't exist and treatment is different for everyone.

Is there an average down reg time and stimming time or is it just too difficult to tell. I'm assuming I would be long protocol (don't know if that's true) which I know starts on day 21 and then I think once bleeding starts (usually day 30 for me although I gather down regging can delay it) you have a scan to confirm everything is as it should be then immediately start stimming, so on the first couple of days of af assuming all went well with initial scan. And then stim for up to 2 weeks? Then ec and 3 days later (it seems to usually be 3 days for older ladies?) et? Is that vaguely right?

Sorry for what I suspect _is_ a stupid question, I hadn't even considered IVF until two weeks ago when I discovered it was covered by my healthcare so I had absolutely no knowledge of it.

Thank you.


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

Kitty - Happy Birthday!

On way back on train so heres the update:-
2 follicles on right ovary 13mm and a 14mm 
2 follicles on left ovary 18mm - so will be gone by EC  but another one 8mm 
Back home to inj tonight and tomorrow and then back for 2nd scan Friday ! Lining 7.8mm and no other issues yay!
The nurse said I am doing really well given my age and AMH so looking at EC Monday morning cant believe it so happy that I have got this far.
Going down Sunday night so making a wee night of it as its my birthday / wedding anniversary as you know just hoping I can get the eggs as a present! Lol !!!  

Syd - I was on a short protocol and everyone is different so I would check first to see which one you will be on but I started my tx on day 19 of m normal cycle - 11 days of pills break for 5 days then started injections and I am on day 6 of these? Hope this helps!
xx

Will keep you all posted xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Just popping on to say well done *Highlandgirl*! Fantastic you've got 5 follicles responding to the TX, such a shame they think they might lose the biggest 2 of those, but I am keeping my fingers crossed for _at least_ 3 eggs for you on Monday.


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## Syd72

Thanks Highlandgirl, that is helpful.  Pretty much anything is helpful at this stage 

I hope you get a lovely birthday present on Monday.


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## kittykatkins

*Syd*. I'm no expert, but I understand that short protocol is preferred for us older ladies. Short protocol fits in with your regular cycle. ie. take meds for 1st 2 weeks of cycle, then egg collection around day 13, transfer 3-5 days later. 
My work is completely non cooperative re support for ivf so I'm having to delay af to correspond with leave I've already booked. This is possible using bcp.
Hope this helps x


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## Syd72

That's interesting kittykatkins, thanks so much.  I'm not sure why I thought it was usually long protocol for us.


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## Hopeful_one

Hello all, just catching up.

*Highlandgirl & Kitty* - sending you both birthday/anniversary wishes. And great news about the follicles - better than me.

*Seaside* - sorry to hear your news about the cysts. I have also completed one cycle and am now worried about whether cysts might have appeared on my ovaries! Btw interesting stats by the ONS - I wonder what was behind the success of the pregnancies back in the 30s/40s given that IVF was nowhere near as advanced as it is now.

*Syd* - I was on short protocol so only 1 week of meds. I would contact your clinic and ask them what protocol you will be on...I would have thought that they would have gone through this with you already?

AFM, I'm taking time out to improve egg quality by taking CoQ10 and maybe some DHEA (still pondering on it!) . Planning to start cycle 2 in November.

Good luck to all the other ladies on this thread, it's great to hear all your updates.
x


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## Syd72

Thanks hopeful. I haven't had my initial appointment with the clinic yet, it's in 3 weeks.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd*: I'm sure it will all become clearer once you've had your first appointment. It must be difficult trying to plan your UK treatment from abroad, but I had the impression (from when I was there in January/February this year) that the Lister are very used to people travelling in from overseas. I suspect that it's similar across many of the London clinics.

As Kitty has already explained - I think it is much more common to recommend short protocol for older women. As Kitty's said, on a conventional short protocol, you'd start stimulation injections pretty much at the start of your normal cycle (usually day 2 - 3) and have scans every few days, then egg collection somewhere around the mid-cycle point - say day 13.

However, given that your AMH is fantastic, you might be given a long protocol. From memory (when a LP was discussed with me a very long time ago) the down-regulation drugs were going to start on day 21, then after AF, stims from day 2-ish. But I don't think that the clinic needs to see you at all during down regging, meaning that you could easily stay overseas at that point.
If it would help with advance travel plans, perhaps you could ask the clinic to email you some kind of information leaflet for patients, perhaps containing a timeline for a sample long protocol and short protocol? I shall wait with interest to see what they recommend for you - and wish you all the best, of course.

*Kitty* - thank you for the reassurance on follicle numbers - I needed that! Grrrr for your work being unsympathetic to IVF - it's a medical procedure after all, isn't it! Very best of luck with your up-coming mini-IVF cycle and that you'll show us all how it's done by getting a BFP! (I wish that I had only just turned 45, I can tell you!)

*Hopeful_one* - yes, I do think the ONS stats are interesting. We shouldn't forget that the FIRST ever IVF baby in the UK wasn't born until 1978, so those over-45-er's in the 1930's and 1940's were conceiving with no medical help whatsoever. And precious little scientific knowledge. And probably whilst still breastfeeding their next youngest child!

As regards cysts - the consultant at Create told me that if anyone is doing a 3-cycle package of "mild stimulation" he would ask them to skip a month between cycles - so that e.g. you would cycle on month 1, month 3 then month 5. This is to avoid the risk of starting new stimulation with cysts from the previous cycle, but sitting out a month in-between is usually sufficient for any cysts to disappear on their own. Therefore, even if you did have any cysts left over from last time, they would be gone again by the time you go back, if that makes sense.

*ESJ* - have you started your cycle with Create yet? Please let us know how you get on?

*Highlandgirl* - your follicles are in my thoughts with my best wishes! How weird does that sound!

Sorry if I've missed any news from anyone? Good luck to everyone else.

I am TRYING to force myself not to panic and to hope that when I am scanned again (at Create) after my next AF (expected mid-October), they will see at least a slightly better number of follicles. Of course, if they don't, I shall undoubtedly go into full-scale meltdown, but for now, I am trying to be optimistic - and keep taking the supplements!

Goodness knows how the 'view counter' for this thread works, but we have been viewed 3,323 times as I write what will be the 70th post on this thread! Hmm, does that mean there are lots of ladies lurking Would be great if others' joined in too - trials, tips, perhaps even success stories!


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## Syd72

That's a lot of views!

Thanks so much for that Beside_the_seaside, really helpful.  I'll keep you posted.


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## Beside_the_seaside

I thought I'd post a list of the supplements I am taking (and sometimes forgetting ...). Any comments, suggestions, additions would be most welcome!

- *DHEA *25mg x 3 daily
- CoEnzyme Q10 in the form of *Ubiquinol *100mg x 3 daily
- *Melatonin *3mg

- *Pregnacare Max* (the one with an extra fish oil supplement)

_Then as an addition to what's already contained in Pregnacare_:
- *Folic Acid* 5mg (this has been on prescription since my TFMR)
- *Vitamin C* 500mg
- *Vitamin D* 1000 iu (25ug)
- *Vitamin E* 200 iu
- *Selenium* 50 ug

There are a couple of other things I read about in the book "It Starts with the Egg" that I'm not taking:
- *Alpha- Lipoic acid* 600 mg daily. This apparently may reduce thyroid hormones and as I'm hypothyroid and on daily medication, I decided against it.
- *N-Acetyl Cysteine* 600 mg daily. The book says it must be treated with caution (anyone interested should read why) and is contra-indicated if asthmatic. I'm considering it though.

I read a post by a successful IVF lady recently who had taken *Resveratrol*, amongst other supplements. I looked it up and briefly, it seems to be "a polyphenol found in red grape skin, Japanese knotweed (polygonum cuspidatum), peanuts, blueberries and some other berries. It is a powerful antioxidant". So it sounds beneficial, yet innocuous enough, so I may add that one too.

Things I've discounted include Royal Jelly, Maca and L-Arginine. Mainly as the book "It Starts with the Egg" doesn't rate them as having very good evidence of benefit, but also as I have to draw the line on costs somewhere!


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## kittykatkins

That's really helpful info *BesideTheSea* I already take Pregnacare conception, but am going to add Co Q10


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## highlandgirl

Hello ladies!

Beside - so glad you are here to let us know about the supplements you are taking  I bet you have a large pill case!
I agree there must be many more ladies viewing and they should pitch up and let us know their stories 
Syd - good luck with your appt x
Lily - how are you?

Update - I am now 46 using own eggs!
Had 5 follies - 4 big and 1 smaller one on Friday sizes between 11 - 20 mm
I was always told we will be lucky to retrieve 3 eggs but that would be great so here's hoping!
EC booked for Monday at 730 am - can you give me your tips /advice for EC ladies? Just took my trigger shot!
Xx


----------



## Flyby

When it worked for me at 44, I had been taking loads of supplements for months, I know it was probably completely OTT and extremely expensive but I felt like I wanted to try absolutely everything, so, here goes... Pregnacare conception, probiotic, ubiquinol 800mg, ubiquinone 200mg, vitamin D3 1000iu, PQQ, royal jelly, vitamin b complex alternated with PABA, folic acid, lycopene, iron, fish oil, pycnogenol, selenium and zinc, l'arginine, myo-inositol, alpha lipoid acid, carnitine, melatonin. When I write it down it sounds absolutely crazy and who knows if any of it worked, but I was going nuts about researching and doing everything conceivably possible to help myself...who knows though, could have been way too much to be taking, but with any little thing I found out, I added it in there!!!! Can't remember reasons or doses for all of them now! But they were spread between morning, day and night. F X


----------



## Lily0750

Hello ladies,

*Highlandgirl*, hope you EC went well.

*Beside_the_seaside*, your supplements list is very impressive. I take DHEA, Ubiquinol, baby aspirin and Pregnacare Max (oil capsule + 2 dark green tables) only and feel like consuming loads of capsules/tables. I was not sure how other vitamins will affect IVF so decided to avoid anything extra.

*Syd72* - good luck.

Afm, I have done 4 days of injections. So far so good. Will be flying to Cyprus on Friday evening.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Lily - not long now till Friday   stay busy - how are the injections?
Fly - thank you for popping on with the supplements update !
Beside - stay positive and keep taking the supplements until AF arrives  
Syd & kitty - how are u doing?

Well we had 3 eggs taken yesterday so happy to get all 3   
Just waiting on the call to see if my Wee Juicy Lucy's are OK to come back to me - advised to put back all 3 if an option to do so  
ET tomorrow day 2 due to my age which I now have to remind myself is 46  
Lining looking good so here's hoping ladies - wish us luck xx


----------



## Syd72

Good luck highlandgirl!

I also take a ridiculous amount of vitamins.  I take nhp fertility support for women then additional calcium & magnesium, ubiquinol, vit B6, B12, C, D3, probiotic, maca, royal jelly, starflower oil (up to ovulation), vit e, folate, omega 3.  I'll speak to the lister about what to continue taking when I see them in a couple of weeks.


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## moonstone5985

sorry coming into this late - so impressed with your 3 eggs highland girl. what is a flare protocol? 

and what else have you been doing?

really sorry if you've already said all this but to read back all of the messages would take me forever.

i am so sad i had one egg collected and was on clomid and menopur and now i wonder if it's because the drugs i was on weren't any good

i'm 42 and had a good AMH.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks for the posts on supplements everyone, lots to think about!

*Flyby * - Are you trying again after your successful conception aged 44?

*Highlandgirl* - Thrilled to read your news about your egg collection! Brilliantly well done on the three lovely eggs    ! I can't remember, are you doing ICSI? When will you know if they've all fertilised? Hopefully three top grade embryos will be back with you soon!

*Lily* - Wow, you've started your injections already - so exciting! What drugs are they? How are you finding the injections? 
Wishing you a comfortable, safe journey to Cyprus on Friday and best of luck with the rest of your cycle. Is anyone travelling with you? If not, I noticed that some ladies use this site to arrange to meet up with others who are cycling overseas at the same time. Had you considered that? It might be nice to have some extra moral support?

*Moonstone* - re your comment that you were disappointed in only having one egg collected, despite your relatively young age and good AMH (you lucky thing!). 
I'm no expert, but I had a brief discussion about maybe doing a clomid cycle as an alternative to the protocol that I'm hoping to try again after next AF. There seemed to be a couple of ways of doing it, but basically you start Clomid (anything between 50 - 150mg daily) on day 2 or 3 of cycle. Then from somewhere after day 6, add in a low daily dose of gonadotrophin (either Menopur or Gonal F, about 150iui) until egg collection. I understand that this type of protocol doesn't attempt to produce loads of follicles, it just aims to get good maturity/quality out of one or two follicles. 
It sounds as though your protocol might have been a similar type of thing - i.e. that they weren't trying to produce lots of eggs? It would be very interesting to know what doses of clomid & menopur you were taking, and on what cycle days?

Good luck to everyone else in their endeavours!

Well I am having good days and bad days in WAITING for AF. I keep panicking about what to do if next cycle is no better - I've no idea what I'll do if I only have a couple of follicles at baseline. Not much I can do except take supplements and try to stay calm and healthy. So many more days like the recent few where I have caffeine and chocolate due to feeling sorry for myself, will really NOT help!


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## kittykatkins

Morning everyone x

Good luck today *highland girl.* Have you heard yet how many fertilised?

Hi *Moonstone*. I think 1 egg is not unexpected with mini ivf, I had just the one last time with the same protocol as yourself. Luckily it was mature and did fertilise, still bfn tho.

Good luck *lily*, keep us in the loop.

Stay strong *BesideTheSea*. I know what you mean re bad days. I'm pretty good with chocolate & caffine, as I don't drink coffee, my downfall is wine  
PS have you tried white chocolate as an alternative?

Having read about everyone's suppliments I'm feeling a bit left out  so have now added ubiquinol, dhea and selenium, to my current Pregnacare conception & vit C. I'm wavering about melatonin, I sometimes work a night shift, but very rarely have a problem sleeping.


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## Syd72

Morning everyone.

I've read mixed things about melatonin but I see a lot of people on this forum take it.  I do a lot of long haul flying and I'm a TERRIBLE sleeper, I do normally take it for jet lag.

Do clinics recommend taking it?  What sort of doses do people take?

Many thanks.


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## moonstone5985

This is a good read re: supplements. http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=294994.0

Re my treatment. I was on clomid from day 3 to 8, Menopur from day 3 - 11 and also orgalutran from day 8 - 11. Day 12 Pregnyl.

I don't feel very lucky at all  Really don't even think my Amh made any difference?

Next steps to take dhea and coenzyme q10...and pray... I have ten Menopur leftover...is it worth injecting them from day 3 in a natural cycle?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Moonstone* - it sounds like your protocol was one of the 'mini-IVF' protocols. It seems very similar to the types of protocols that Create call 'natural modified' cycles. They're only designed to produce one egg, but try to focus on quality, getting the egg that your body would've 'selected' naturally. A consultant at Create said these protocols aim for one egg and about 30% of the time they'll get a second one, too. So there's nothing wrong with the fact that you only produced one egg on a protocol which was designed to do exactly that!

Personally I wouldn't inject Menopur unsupervised by any scans. I'd be too nervous; although I get the temptation, I had to resist the siren call of some left over Gonal F in my fridge this cycle! For me, I decided not to risk it given I had zero understanding of what the effect might be (of disrupting natural hormones) without a trigger shot. Would I be likely to ovulate at all? Would I just risk creating yet another cyst? No idea. Given your high AMH, if the dosing wasn't right, maybe there's even a risk of multiples?

*Syd* - re *Melatonin *- I got the idea of taking it from that book "It Starts with the Egg: How the Science of Egg Quality Can Help You Get Pregnant and Prevent Miscarriage" by Rebecca Fett. She quotes some studies that found 3mg daily of Melatonin had a statistically significant improvement in egg and embryo quality in IVF cycles. At least one study that she quoted found that even a very short course of supplementation (starting the same time as down reg, I think) could generate this improvement. She notes it's probably NOT suitable for anyone trying naturally as melatonin may also directly control (and therefore a supplement may disrupt) the natural production of hormones which control ovulation - and supplementation might interfere with natural ovulation. She confirms that there's no problem in IVF cycles where they control your cycle via injectable drugs.

*Kittykatkins* - bless you - thanks for the moral support! I'm not a coffee drinker either (except occasionally when out and about) but have a weakness for tea and can't get excited by decaffeinated/herbal versions. Must try harder!

*Highlandgirl* - hope all OK with you?

*Lily *- how are you - getting ready to go?


----------



## Syd72

That's great information, thanks Beside_the_seaside.  I really need to have another read of that book.


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## moonstone5985

Beside the Seaside - you are very knowledgeable, thank you... btw i realised i forgot to say what my doses were. clomid was 150mg and menopur 75 units. so that's exactly as you said... and this is what you're thinking of going on? 

I really thought I'd have had more chance with aiming to collect a few eggs, then at least 1 might work?? i was very sad when they told me they only had one egg, if they'd advised me that's what they were aiming for maybe i'd have been less sad! but it seemed the likelihood of that egg working was very low. they did also tell me it only had a 10% chance of working with my own eggs so i did have my eyes wide open in that sense...


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

Sorry for the absence! 
Moon - welcome to our thread we are so lucky to have this place to share all our stories hints and tips for us more experienced in life ladies shall we say    
To answer your question my flare agonist protocol was norethisterone pills from day 19 of my regular cycle then 5 days bleed break then prostap injection then 8 days of gonal f 300 then ovitrelle trigger x
I also take pregnacare conception and omega 3 and I have been having acupuncture which I feel has benefitted my whole life I cannot recommend it highly enough  
Beside - any sign of AF? You are right stay calm and healthy - I bought bear gryls book fuel for life and you can make your own chocolate which I have heart shaped moulds and I keep them in the freezer they are tasty and only healthy ingredients..... yum I also put a little peppermint oil in too - think after eights....  
Kitty - how are you?

Is anyone else still with us? Or watching from the sidelines ??
Feel free to add your comments but try and stay positive  

Update - we had 3 eggs collected 2 were fertilised and classed as top grade and were put back in my oven yesterday - I just feel so so lucky to even have got to this stage I am so thankful and the clinic were just amazing     
Not sure what to expect now but going to stay chilled and keep calm - listening to my Zita West cd really helped on the train and I had acupuncture straight after I got off the train last night! 
My OTD is Tuesday 11th Oct - big prayers xxx
Any tips for implantation or the 2 week wait?


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## Lily0750

Hi ladies,

Many thanks to all of you for your support.
Sorry could not reply earlier, I work in finance and was busy with month end, will be working even tomorrow.
I was on letrozole tablets and 450iu menogon (same as menopur) from day 2 to day 6. Yesterday moved to orgalutran + menogon for 5 days.
So far I have not had any side effects. 
Will let you know if I get any OE with this protocol.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - I am so thrilled for you - what excellent progress! Two top-grade embryos is a really good achievement, you should be very proud of yourself!   You've done all the hard work now and think there's nothing much you can do more than you already are doing - relaxing (but not taking to your bed), accupuncture, avoiding the obvious caffeine/alcohol. Consider yourself PUPO (pregnant until proven otherwise) - really rooting for you!

Interesting that you've found accupuncture so helpful. I'd love regular treatments myself (and I've done this in the past) but the costs of this TTC project are racking up and I just can't stretch to continuing accupuncture, unfortunately.

As for my AF, I'm not expecting it until after your OTD on 11 October. Hopefully you'll get your BFP that week and I'll find some raw ingredients (i.e. follicles) for one of my own!

*Lily0750* - well what superb organisation that you will finish your month end at work then fly out to Cyprus! I've heard of Letrozole/Femara as think it can be used in a similar way to Clomid. I think a dose of 450iui Menogon (or Menopur) is considered to be a fairly substantial dose, so I would be seriously optimistic about getting some of your own eggs. I hope you will be able to post an update from overseas, I'd love to know how you get on. And best of luck of course.

*Moonstone* - Hmm, I wouldn't consider myself to be 'knowledgeable'. I've been TTC for too bloomin' long, I know that much. Interesting to hear you'd been on a 150mg dose of Clomid and 75 units of Menopur.

I've just noticed, from re-reading above, that it's very similar to the protocol that *Kittykatkins *was on in Czech. She said "75 Menopur every day and clomid for first 5 days, somehow had 10 follicles, but still only produced 1 egg ... a grade 1 embryo transferred on day 3".

Each of those sound to me like what was presented to me as a possible 'mini-IVF' protocol (or 'natural modified' IVF protocol) that we might try in the future, after we've given Gonal F another go. Definitely, the intention of that protocol would only be to aim to produce one, or at most two eggs, so you shouldn't be downhearted that that was exactly what happened. In a way, it's similar to the protocols used for ladies doing IUI: they wouldn't use high doses of stims, they would only want you to produce one or two eggs, to avoid a risk of multiples (i.e. 'Octomom' scenarios).

If I have any antral follicles at baseline scan after my next AF (please God) then I'm hoping to try another 'natural modified' cycle and freeze any embryo(s). They'll probably give me 150iui Gonal F daily on days 5 - 9: which is considered to be a pretty low dose and for pretty much the shortest possible time.

Ideally I would prefer to do a more conventional short protocol, stimulated cycle. I guess that would be 225 or 300, or perhaps even 450 units of Gonal F daily, starting from day 2 until trigger shot on day 11/12. The clinic want to see around 7 antral follicles at the first scan before they would try this - a number which even last year I would have taken for granted, but now, unfortunately seems most unlikely.

With high AMH (and/or lots of follicles at baseline scan), if you are considering another cycle, I'd certainly ask about a conventional stimulated short protocol that is designed to try to get a few more eggs out.

*Hopeful_one* - how are you doing? Did you decide on DHEA? Was it you who posted about a high protein & low carb diet? I'm trying (with variable success) to stick to that in an effort to try to improve egg quality. Have you decided when you're going back to Create?

Nearly forgot, we have TTC naturally this cycle (cue hollow laugh). I'd forgotten how vehemently I dislike it! What with my advanced age and my partner's antisperm antibodies, it just starts to seem like a bad joke. I was so despondent that I grudgingly bought some cheapo 'colour comparison' ovulation tests (way too mean to fork out for 'proper' Clear blue smiley face version) which turned out to be about as useful as asking my 3 year old. But DP and I slogged through the process this week because apparently there was one follicle on the scan (only one, but still ...) and well, why not.

Good luck to everyone else,
Seaside x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

How are we all?
I am so bloated I look bloody preggers! Doesn't help I keep eating!!
Very tired and I have some sharper pains on one side and feel really heavy - I am now 3dp2dt took my last injection today so think it might be that that is making me tired  
My skin looks great though - very confusing!!
Think I have done too much as well - did the shopping took dog walk and now back at desk working    

How is everyone else?
xx


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## Hopeful_one

Hello ladies,

Sorry been off the radar but have been occasionally lurking!

*Highlandgirl* - congrats on your embies (and PUPO status), I'm so pleased for you. Fingers crossed and sending you lots of babydust! Btw I completely agree with you about the acupuncture, I'm having sessions every fortnight until my next cycle.

*Moonstone* - firstly welcome to the thread. It's great to hear from more of us older ladies who are trying with OE. Wrt your protocol like Besides mentioned it is designed to produce quality rather than quantity. I only produce 2 eggs on my natural modified cycle but no frosties unfortunately.

*Lily* - very excited for you. Hope all goes well and you can post from Cyprus with updates.

*Besides* - I hope all is well with you. I know it can be so frustrating just waiting for AF to arrive especially when you just want to get on with things! Yes I did mention that I was trying to improve the diet but to be honest I have slipped in that department in the last few weeks  including alcohol and chocolate/caffeine.

The other update I have is that I had my review at Create and tbh there was nothing particularly useful that came out of it other than to try the next cycle as soon as possible. So I'm hoping that AF will arrive in the next couple of weeks for cycle 2.

Good luck to everyone.


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## Lily0750

*Highlandgirl* congratulations! 2 top embies out of 3 eggs is very good results. Good luck! I hope all goes well.
*Beside_the_seaside* in my opinion it always worth trying naturally: you never know that one follicle might be of top quality.
Sorry ladies I will write more later


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## moonstone5985

Morning all

Hope all is going well for everyone.

*Beside_the_seaside* how long have you been doing this TTC'ing for? as i see you had a child aged 43 - had you been trying a long time before that?
I guess I haven't been trying that long, I got pregnant (and have a son) by surprise at 39 years old (doctors had been telling me i was infertile since i was 19 - PCOS) and now I've been trying since I turned 41 with one mc September 2015. now this failed ivf (wish i'd been consulted on what kind of ivf i wanted! but i've had serious intestinal surgery so i guess they had valid reasons). Which was in Czech also btw.

I'm wondering what my prospects are of conceiving naturally, can't afford to do another ivf cycle (going to Czech was really stressful as well)...I don't want to hope and it not happen but I am anyway! i'm really really hoping dhea will bring home a result.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Moonstone* - did you say you were (only) 42? If you've now been trying since you turned 41, I don't think that's long is it? And really, you're a comparative spring chicken in this parish, so try not to stress too much.

Well as you asked about my daughter: I conceived her pretty much first time we tried at the age of 43 1/4. However, although it was quick in the end, it felt like an eternity in my head. I had been desperate to start TTC for YEARS, but had put it off for what, with the benefit of hindsight, now look like a variety of fairly pathetic reasons (as nothing could justify it really) when technically I could have (and obviously should have) started TTC in my late thirties at the latest. Of course there's not a day goes by that I don't thank my lucky stars for my daughter as I idolise her, but there was no real reason (other than my own stupidity) that I shouldn't have had 2 children by now, so the fact that I don't is making me quite ill.

Anyway I've no idea what you should take from my experience. Don't for goodness sake think that just because you haven't conceived immediately, that you won't conceive - that's obviously nonsense. But equally, I'd obviously disagree with those (and there seem to be a few on Fertility Friends) who think it's practically impossible to conceive with own eggs post 43. I know personally several women who have done, so don't consider myself to be in any way special/unusual in that respect.

As for trying naturally - the good thing is (a) you're relatively young, actually, and (b) you seem to have lots of follicles. The one thing I'd consider is whether your PCOS might be preventing you from ovulating regularly. I would find an independent ultrasound scanning service; there are lots of little clinics who do early pregnancy scans and fertility assessment/gynaecology scans for between £60 - £100. They can scan you at baseline and one or two scans at mid-cycle to check if you're ovulating. You could also just ask your GP for a day 21 progesterone test which ought to indicate ovulation, although I'm not sure if they're 100% reliable. There's also a daily supplement called INOFOLIC which is clinically proven to increase egg quality and restore ovulation in women with PCOS.
*http://inofolic.org.uk/*

*Highlandgirl* - How are you doing? Please cheer me up and list lots of possibly/probably pregnant symptoms!

*Lily *- hope Cyprus cycle is progressing well? Hope you're managing to enjoy the experience like a little holiday too?

*Hopeful_one* - Good to hear from you again! Did you start the DHEA? Glad you had a review at Create - I think probably the advice on timing of your next cycle is as important as anything else they could've told you. Are they suggesting that you stick with the same drug protocol? When do you expect AF?

I'm expecting AF after (roughly) 12 October. Perhaps we might even be at St Pauls at around the same time? I'm totally terrified about what they'll find - or the lack of what they'll find - on my next scan. I'm praying that perhaps it was the cysts that were suppressing the follicles last time. Please, please God I've got a few more follicles next time! But there's nothing for it but to wait and see, is there.

Would be lovely to hear from anyone else trying?
Seaside x

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## moonstone5985

Thank you *seaside * I feel the same about thinking I should have 2 children by now... as I watch everyone around me swanning around with 2 children or a toddler and a pregnant belly. it has been just over a year and a half of trying now. the only reason i stress i suppose is because i want to make sure i'm doing everything in my power to make it happen and not just sitting on my laurels thinking it will.

(just so you all know i do feel guilty for my desperation for wanting a 2nd when obviously others are finding it hard to have 1)

the doctor said my PCOS had disappeared?!? (that was the first doctor i saw) but then later when i had a telephone appt with a female GP and i asked to be referred for treatment (later didn't take it up in UK) the letter said that my progesterone test on day 21 didn't show an ovulatory pattern when the first gp said that i was fine and ovulating!

Is inofolic - myo inositol? i've just ordered some if so. says it can help with hirsutism too - which i have been battling my whole life. but then dhea says it can cause acne and hairiness... so how do they work/will they clash?! (as i sit here touching the new spots that are appearing all over my face!)

apologies for taking over this thread a tad.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Moonstone* - re your question, yes INOFOLIC is basically myo-inositol plus folic acid, but assume you would be taking folic acid anyway. I guess it might be useful to mimic the daily dose of myo-inositol (4g) that they've done the research on. This is what their website says.
http://inofolic.org.uk/the-role-of-inofolic/
"When taken at the recommended dose of 2 sachets per day, Inofolic provides 400mcg of folic acid (the recommended daily amount) and 4g of myo-inositol."

About the desire for 2 children. I have tremendous guilt too, of course I do. Julia Indichova has a great line in her book 'Inconceivable' about the guilt she feels in attending 'Resolve' infertility group meetings, like she is barging in line for seconds when others are still waiting patiently to be served. But equally, I have fleeting moments where I swear it might be less painful to have no child at all, than 'only' one child. I have to do kids stuff with my daughter, and whilst I've met some lovely mums through her, I also seem to constantly come into contact with smug, insensitive, 'me, me, me' types. Like at toddler art class recently, round a table with our 2.5 - 4 year olds. Two women in conversation realised that each (in addition to their toddlers) had a baby boy under 3 months and gushed loudly for ages in complete ignorance that anyone else might be looking a little forlorn/sad and perhaps having difficulties. My DD (who obviously hadn't been directly included in this conversation at all) turned to me and said "_I haven't got a baby brother have I. I've just got dolls. And that makes me sad._" It was excruciating. I just so wish I could do this for her as well as me.

Come on ovaries! 

Any news from anyone? Any newcomers? Best of luck to *everyone *trying - please let this be our time!

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## Syd72

Morning all.  Nothing really to update from my end.  I've got my initial consultation at the Lister next week which I'm excited about in a weird way.  DH had his sperm test last week and all looks good, not that I really understand them but only one thing was highlighted and my extensive googling says all is basically fine.  Went to get my amh re-tested yesterday as it's been 18 months since the last one, terrified it will have dropped drastically.  Should get the results by the end of the week.

Hope everyone is doing ok.


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## moonstone5985

*Seaside *- yes i totally get that. every time someone says you are so lucky to have your son, i think yes but i want him to have a sibling. at least if you don't have any children you don't spend most of your life in places where there are loads of children and mothers all the time (i know that must be a small good thing). the amount of times i get asked by complete strangers - don't you want to have another? I suppose as painful as people without children being asked, when are you going to have some children. (if that happens)

what do you say btw to someone who asks if you want to have another... i've said things like i've been trying but i'm old now. and they say 'oh you're not old'. i don't know what else to say - I'm infertile?? I'm infertile at the moment?? I'm trying, it's not always easy you know!

this all should probably be in the 2ndary infertility section - sorry ladies.

good luck Syd with your AMH.. i wondered too how long the results last for. I had mine done in March.

come on everyone's ovaries


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## Gemini40

Hi Moonstone- I can relate. I am 40, one child at 4 and never been able to get pregnant again inspite if EO IVF and DEIVF. I don't know whether to say I am infertile now or apparently am scraping the bottom of the barrel now with my eggs. I would still love my own genetic child so I am trying naturally every month. I would do EO IVF again if I thought I had a flying hope but when I did 12 months ago I got 3 eggs and zero fertilisation. 

People have stopped asking me about a second child- I suppose they 'assume if it hasn't happened by now'


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## moonstone5985

Gemini - I feel for you. You've been a lot braver than I in doing all those cycles. Really sorry they've not been successful. I've thought about DE but apart from also wanting my own genes passed on, I don't have the money right now...maybe to consider later...

Really hope those 2 lines come for you soon.


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## Lily0750

*Beside_the_seaside, Moonstone, Gemini40* please don't blame yourself, you cannot change the past.
Of course, it is better if the child has a sibling, but I have seen so many families where grown up siblings have nothing in common and do not see or talk to each other for years. I think if I manage to have one child only I will do my best to help the child to have the best friend since young age so that she/he wouldn't feel lonely. Good luck with your tx.

*Hopefully_one* good luck with cycle 2. Hope this one will be successful.
*Syd* good luck with your AMH results.

I had a scan on Saturday, which showed one follicle of 13 mm on one side and three follicles (cannot remember the size) on the other side. Dr prescribed an additional day of menogon &orgalutran. Did ovitrell injection this morning. Will find out tomorrow if I got any own eggs. It seems that despite over three months of DHEA and ubiquinol, my AFC has not increased. Let's hope that the quality might have improved. If not, I hope the lovely young donor will not fail me.

Apart from one scan and daily injections my stay was more of holidays rather than treatment.
Spent last three days walking and climbing castles of North Cyprus. It is still quite hot here, over +30C during the daytime.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily* - you are totally right about siblings, of course. And that anyone can only do their best for the future. I'll have to see what next cycle brings ...

Anyway, it's great to read your update! Fabulous news that you have four follicles responding to your stimulation meds! Plus they'll have had a few more days of growth since the Saturday scan. I do hope you are feeling positive? I can't see any reason why you wouldn't get any 'own eggs' - you might get (at least) four by the sound of it!

Are you going to do ICSI (or IMSI perhaps) with the own eggs retrieved? I expect that your clinic will be looking after you very well, but even if you haven't considered this already, I'm sure it wouldn't be too late if you would like to discuss it with them.

I say that because I got switched from 'ordinary IVF' to ICSI about an hour _after _egg collection, when one of the brilliant embryologists at the Lister identified that DP had a really high level of anti-sperm antibodies. Really annoyed that it hadn't been picked up on previous semen analysis we'd had done elsewhere, but at least the Lister knew what they were doing. The consultant at Create said that despite our particular MF issue, they would recommend ICSI for ALL cases where the female was aged 43 or over as the outside shells of the eggs (although I'm sure they used a better phrase than that) become harder to penetrate.

Please do let us know how many eggs / what fertilisation you get, it's all very exciting!
Assuming that you get two or three own egg embryos, would you go with those for transfer and freeze the embryos from the donor eggs? You might well end up in the incredibly fortunate position of a friend of mine who eventually had 2 children from the same IVF cycle (one fresh embryo, one FET)!

How lovely to be enjoying such great weather! I hope the fresh air, sunshine and walking will all input towards a positive result for this treatment cycle - sounds like it would do anyone good.

*Syd* - Best of luck with your upcoming appointment with the Lister - they're a fabulous clinic. I would have loved to have gone back there myself, but I was too negative about my prospects if I only gave it one more shot, yet a multi-cycle approach was out of reach financially at the Lister. They don't discount for more than one cycle, as far as I know.

I reckon your AMH will be fine - it is unlikely to have dropped 'drastically' as you put it.

Personally, my AMH is terrible. But I try to remember that people have still got pregnant even with undetectable AMH. I read a paper by Dr Gleicher and Dr Barad at CHR New York citing their achievement of over 50 live births with critically low or undetectable AMH since they have been supplementing with DHEA. (I can't find it just now, maybe I'll dig out the reference ...)

*Highlandgirl * - still have fingers crossed for you getting a BFP! I hope you're hanging on in there, must be a nerve-wracking 2ww after all that effort.


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## Hopeful_one

Evening all, so great to hear your updates.

*Lily* - fantastic news about your4 follicles. And pleased that you have managed to have a holiday as part of the whole process. Like you I would be ecstatic if I had one miracle (with OE) of my own, I certainly would not complain about it. I agree that not all siblings get on with each other so it's important that a child is instilled with confidence regardless of having siblings or not.

Anyway when I had my cycle I only had 2 follicles and 2 eggs so you may well have 4 eggs which gives you a great chance. I also had ICSI due to age as the shell of an egg becomes harder as they age and so it make it difficult for normal fertilisation.

*Seaside*- I am waiting for AF to arrive but not sure when it will because since my first tx my cycle has changed from 28 days to 24 days so I'm thinking that some of the medication might have had an effect on it? I did ask the consultant at my review but he didn't seem too bothered by it. I know my cycle runs like clockwork (out by 1 day either side at best) so it makes me feel like something has happened to me since my first tx. Or maybe I'm analysing it too much? Also I have not started any DHEA yet but have been taking ubiqinol so I'm hoping that might have improved things in the egg quality department but have only been taking it for about one month so don't know if I've done enough for the next cycle.

Anyway when I start my cycle I will PM you and see whereabouts you are in your treatment and maybe we can say 'hello' in the corridor!

Sending positive vibes and lots of luck to all the other ladies on this thread - please keep posting.

xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Hopeful_one* - perhaps I can help on the shorter cycle? Was it the cycle in which you had the modified IVF (i.e. the one in which you actually took injectable meds and did egg retrieval) which ended up being 24 days? Mine was only 23 days! I asked one of the Create consultants about this too. He said it was quite normal to have a shorter cycle because (I hope I've remembered this correctly) when they do the egg retrieval, a side effect of the process is that they accidentally remove some of the cells from the follicles that would otherwise generate progesterone from the corpus luteum, so they remove (at least some of) what would ordinarily help to sustain your lining in the luteal phase. If you were doing a fresh transfer in the same cycle they would put you on Progesterone pessaries, starting the day after egg collection, but they don't need to do this if you're intending to freeze the resultant embryo(s).

I think it is probably a good sign that you ordinarily have 28 day cycles. Mine have definitely shortened in my forties; usually 25 - 27 days now. This year they have been fairly irregular, but after being pregnant, as if it wasn't bad enough having to TFMR, I unfortunately had retained placenta for 8 weeks after my induction (which was undiagnosed for 6.5 weeks) and required a hysteroscopy to resolve - to say the whole episode was grim doesn't really cover it ... then I had an ovarian cyst ... so perhaps irregular cycles is no more than can be expected from my hormones having taken a battering.

Anyway, I shall let you know when AF decides to turn up. I am so very nervous about the baseline scan at Create, obviously I am hoping and praying they will find something to work with this time!


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## Lily0750

Hi ladies,

Just a quick update from me: no eggs collected. Zero. I guess that the end of own eggs route for me.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily* - I'm so very sorry to hear the news about your egg collection, especially when it had all seemed so promising. Sending you a big hug. Have you decided what your next steps are?

May I gently suggest that if you haven't already done so, that you ensure that the clinic give you plenty of information about your cycle. Particularly in terms of (a) the sizes of each of the follicles on the last scan, (b) their actual (or estimated) sizes at trigger shot and (c) the sizes of the follicles that were aspirated. Perhaps (c) is the most important.

My understanding is that follicles are never actually 'empty'. However, if a clinic tells you to trigger and/or proceeds with egg collection before the eggs are sufficiently mature (basically, before the follicles have grown to a sufficient size) then they won't be able to flush the egg out of the follicle during the egg collection proceedure - it sort of gets stuck.

I found these (short) articles helpful: 
*http://haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/empty-follicles-explained*
*http://haveababy.com/fertility-information/ivf-authority/empty-follicle-syndrome-can-done-prevent*

During my last IVF, the doctor aspirated four follicles, but only collected two eggs as (as they told me afterwards) two follicles were 'empty'. When I queried this at a subsequent appointment with a different consultant, he basically explained the same as is said in the article I linked above: i.e. that follicles are rarely empty, but if they are not sufficiently mature, will not give up their egg during egg collection.

I asked whether a different protocol or timing (i.e. more drugs, later egg collection) could help and he said he will review at my next baseline scan - although his prediction was that I would probably need to stick with the 'mini IVF'/natural modified protocol due to likely low starting follicle numbers. As long as I've got a few ...

Anyway, I'm sorry for the ramble. I just wanted to put this out there, on the off chance it could be of any help to you at all in your decision making. Please understand that I'm posting this with the best intentions and I apologise sincerely if it should be in any way upsetting.

I'm sorry that you're going through this setback, but truly hope that you will succeed, one way or another. x

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## Hopeful_one

*Seaside* you are a wealth of information, thank you.

Yes the shorter cycle happened after my first tx cycle, I told my acupuncturist about it too but she didn't really have a explanation for it either. I am on a multi cycle package so am not doing a transfer yet. However what is strange is that I have had a short cycle again and this time I did not have treatment (decided to take a month off) so I don't know what is happening?!?

Anyway I'm not going to stress about it as I'm just grateful that I am having (fairly) regular periods. I think I was only concerned because I know my cycle is like clockwork and has been for years. This was just something I noticed and so I figured it was something to do with the treatment.

*Lily *- I'm so sorry that no eggs were collected. I'm rather surprised that out of 4 follicles not a single mature egg was available for collection. Like *Seaside* said I think it would be wise to get as much info as possible from a post treatment consultation before you leave Cyprus. Though to be honest when you receive such news the last thing you want to do is discuss the failure again - I know I felt that way when I was given the news that there was no viable embryo for freezing.

*Syd* - have you received you latest AMH result?


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## Lily0750

*Beside_the _seaside* many thanks for detailed explanation and for the article. It all makes sense.
*Hopefully_one* thanks for support.
I guess I am disappointed because I had high expectations, well I was hoping to get at least one egg.
Now I am not sure I made the right decision. I should have probably stayed with Lister and had a proper own egg cycle.

Since I am doing a tandem cycle, I got eggs from a donor as well. Just received a message from the clinic coordinator say that I got 10 fertilized embryos.
I wish I had 46 year old brain and knowledge when I was 21.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily* - TEN EMBRYOS!!!!!!!!!! My goodness - wow! Please update us with what you decide to do next?


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## Lily0750

Let's see how many out of ten pass PGD chromosomal testing and reach 5 day blastocyst stage.
I intend to transfer 2 embryos only and freeze the remaining embryos.


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Sorry for lack of chat just keeping busy on this crazy 2ww!

Lily - that is amazing 10 embryos hope you get your 2 good ones and they are back with you soon x

Hope - hope cycle 2 goes well for you xx hopefully AF comes soon? X

Beside - I am sure you could definitely write a book on this very subject for over 45's have you got a book in you? I think so  your AF should be coming soon? Have you got a date for your baseline scan? I'm sure they will find something to work with xxxx

Gem - good luck and please keep us posted x

Moon - what's your news have you been trying anything else to help you? X

Syd - keep us posted on your results - my AMH was 2.8 in march at 45 and a half x

I am on 8dp2dt can't believe I have managed to get this far without losing it and not telling any of my family 
We are building an extension and we have our own business so it's always a busy time and that helps to divert me from overthinking about what's happening  
I had a lot of symptoms after Saturday when I took my ovitrelle shot but they have subsided and I just have sore boobs and a heavy feeling which could be AF ( I hope not )   but not sure. 
I take it day one of my current cycle would be the 1st day of my manufactured AF which came after I stopped taking the norethisterone pills? 
Just need to get to Tuesday for my bloods xxx


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.  Was hoping to get the results today but nothing.  Will chase again tomorrow.


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## highlandgirl

To test or not to test this is the question? Thoughts ladies!
I am 10dp2dt OTD bloods Tuesday ......


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## Gemini40

Oh, such a personal decision. It probably would show up on a first response at this stage. Keep us posted


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Managed to fight the urge and I am not going to test before OTD bloods at clinic on Tuesday 10.45am 
Had a wobble but DH reminded me we have tried to follow everything by the book as much as possible so not to test early - I was absolutely fine busying away till yesterday then boom! Overwhelming urge but glad it has passed  
Will keep you all posted after I get my results!
How are we all - been very quiet on here for a few days  
x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - you must have nerves of steel! I admire your resolve to wait this out - and think you're absolutely right to do so. It's enough of an emotional rollercoaster without running the risk of getting a confusing false negative HPT, just because you've tested too early.

I expect you've already seen piles of stuff online about when to test. I dug out a couple of examples below. One suggests the _average _date of a positive test is 13.6 DPO (11.6 + 2dt), the other says about 14% could still expect a negative test at 13 DPO. Overall, it points in favour of waiting until the quantitative test on Tuesday I think!

- https://www.fertilityfriend.com/Faqs/When-can-I-expect-a-positive-HPT-if-I-am-pregnant.html
- http://www.countdowntopregnancy.com/pregnancy-test/

Of course I'm keeping absolutely everything crossed for a good outcome for you. For a much wanted child for you and your DH of course, but also for the slightly selfish reason that although I'm somewhat older than you  I'd so love you to demonstrate that it's possible to succeed at an age that is almost approaching my ball park - and on the very first go too!

*Lily* - Absolutely everything crossed for you too.

I wondered whether ... it was just a little thought ... whether you had even considered freezing all of your PGD normal blastocysts from your donor, so that perhaps you could have a second/last cycle of trying with your own eggs? I would suppose depending upon how many euploid embryos/blasts you get this time, any further cycle could be just 'own eggs', or another tandem one.

Of course, your frozen blasts can be stored until you're ready and I think these days FETs are just as likely to be successful as fresh aren't they? I believe some theorise they can be even more so, as the lining can be prepared beautifully and not 'aggravated'/overly-inflamed (struggling for terminology) by ovarian stimulation in the same cycle?

The other thing I wondered was that if you transfer 2 embryos/blasts that are confirmed as 'normal' via PGD, are you really fully prepared for the risk of twins? I would guess your donor is under 35? Wouldn't a UK clinic tend to transfer one single blast to a woman of that age - and your risk should be that of the donor's age, not your own, I would think? But then maybe you feel differently about twins to me, but frankly it would scare me! I'd rather have a singleton and go back for an FET of another singleton when resultant child was even 6 months+ old. Oh dear, it's like complaining your house is too large to clean, it's a lovely 'problem' to have to consider isn't it!

I so look forward to hearing your news, I am learning all the time!

*Syd* - fingers crossed you are buoyed by your AMH result and good luck for your consultation at the Lister in the coming week. They are brilliant IMHO. I would be most interested to hear what they recommend for you.

Good luck to everyone.

I'm just waiting for AF sometime around/after midweek. Or a positive HPT. Or a win on Euromillions.

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## kittykatkins

Hi guys. Hope you're all well. 
*HighlandGirl* I was sure I'd log back on and find your result, I can't believe you're still in the 2ww. I'd wait till the otd too - good luck on tues x. I start on the Norethisterone tomorrow, how many did you take a day?
*BesideTheSea* I hope you get one of your 3 wishes granted 
*Lily* sorry to hear you had no eggs collected, but exciting to hear about the DE


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Kittykatkins* - thanks! On reflection, they were rather poorly expressed wishes, though. Maybe I should've said I'd like either AF _with_ lots of follicles for next time please, or a positive HPT (obviously), or the Euromillions _jackpot_!

Re you starting Norethisterone - is this for a new OE cycle? Are you going back to Czech again? Which clinic are you using? Best of luck


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## Lily0750

*Beside_the _seaside*, I had 2 embryos transferred this morning and the remaining 5 will be frozen.
I thought I would see what is the outcome and then decide what to do next.
TM claims they had about 30% success for patients over 45 with own eggs.
I guess I must be among 70% of unsuccessful patients.

My donor is 21, but I have high No cells. I have been reading on Ff that many ladies get BFN even with 4 embryos from donors under 21 years old.
Well, I think I could manage twins but definitely don't want triplets or quadruplets.
Good luck with your next cycle.

*Highlandgirls* Hopefully everything is going well.
*Kittykankins* good luck with the new cycle.


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## kittykatkins

*SesideTheSea* yes I'm going back to Reprofit in Czech Rep. OE again, if they play ball! Need to time things so EC/ET falls during my leave, hence the Norethisterone


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily* - 35% success rate with own eggs from your clinic sounds absolutely amazing. But like you say, that still leaves 2/3 who won't be successful with OE, so you take the decisions most appropriate for you.

And on an enormous positive note - many congratulations on your transfer! (I'm sorry, I had lost track of time, I hadn't realised you were already at day 4 when I posted yesterday, with your day 5 transfer coming up this morning already!)

Did your clinic do the PGD? You've obviously given the twins issue plenty of thought, so here's hoping for two little Lily-babies  ! Having 5 frozen embryos in addition is wonderful! Enough in the freezer for a mini-Lily five-a-side football team!!!!!

Did you say you have high NK cells? Do you need to be on any extra medication - like an immune protocol - for that? Anyway, I hope you're having a little relax now in Cyprus?

*Highlandgirl* - trying to send calm and positive thoughts your way.

*Kittykatkins* - Fantastic! And it sounds like military-style planning to get things falling within your leave: what a nightmare it all is, but exciting too! When do you expect to start/travel?

Please do keep us updated on your progress, I've read many good things about Reprofit's reputation, so I'll be interested to read how you're getting on. Will you be on the same stimulation protocol as previously, or planning any tweaks to your meds?

Good luck to everyone else x


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## moonstone5985

Hi ladies

I am just biding my time on DHEA, co-enzyme Q10 and Myo Inositol... I'm just hoping something happens, otherwise I guess I'm probably going to give up, I don't know... I have considered DE but I can't afford it right now even if I was sure of it.

I think I'm going to assume that each cycle i'm not pregnant so I can take dhea every day and not stop after ovulation... how damaging would it be to a foetus if i continued taking it...does anyone know? just want it to have the maximum impact for next few months...if i stopped taking it for 2 weeks out of the month surely it won't work as well??

Really good luck to everyone who is mid doing something... *highland girl* - you are very strong, I am absolutely terrible with early testing! but i guess with natural cycles maybe it's a bit different...haven't done an ivf 2ww.

xx


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## Syd72

Congrats and good luck to everyone who's waiting. Well done on not testing, I hate it, I never do it now I just wait and see if af shows up although it may be different on an IVF cycle.  

On my way to London now, Lister at 1.30. AMH results haven't shown up yet which is really irritating.


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## Lily0750

*Syd72*, don't worry. Lister consultant will tell you the results during consultation. That's how I had it.

*Beside_the_seaside* I believe 30% is the pregnancy rate not a life birth.
I am kind of torn apart: I would like my genetic child but then I do not want the child to have my psoriasis or any other genetic disorder caused by my old eggs. Plus it is 3-5% success with my own eggs vs 65-70% with young donor eggs. Plus I guess I should be grateful if the DE works with my high NK cells, as I keep reading about ladies have multiple fails with DE.
I'd this DE cycle works I will be happy, if not will think what to do next.


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## Syd72

Unfortunately it wasn't done there as I couldn't get to the clinic. Not sure how reliable my test from 18 months ago will be.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - About choosing a clinic:

I'm trying to understand what you mean about the Oxford clinic being 'one size fits all'. Did you mean that the Lister are saying short protocol, but the Oxford clinic would usually recommend a long protocol for everyone, but will do short if that's what you prefer? If that's the case, from a protocol point of view, it doesn't sound like there's much to choose between them. If they would both use short protocol (do you know if they recommend the same drugs/doses?) then on that point it probably doesn't matter which clinic you pick.

Your test results seem to suggest you have younger performing ovaries than your age (lucky you!) so you could probably 'cope' with a long protocol, but I've read posts from several other women even slightly younger than you are but with similar good test results, who are put on short protocol. It seems quite common for the over 40's.

I don't know anything about the clinic in Oxford, but it's maybe a significant point in their favour that you are confident in the consultant who treated your fibroid and comfortable in that environment?

I have some experience of the Lister, as I had a cycle with them in January. I picked them on reputation, but given that I was already 46, my choice of clinics willing to give me a go was frankly very limited. I genuinely think the Lister consultants and embryologists are first rate. They obviously have a wealth of experience as they have hundreds of treatment cycles running at any one time. The flip side is that it can all be a little impersonal, a bit like a huge machine rather than a real sense of getting bespoke, tailored attention.

This next is obviously just my personal experience - others may feel differently. I was surprised to find that all of the in-cycle monitoring at the Lister was done by IVF nurses and sonographers. Whilst there may well have been data/results reviews by a consultant, I didn't see one personally (not between initial consult and egg collection). My main gripe is that you ring up on day 1 of AF to be given a first scan appointment to start stims - and I was given day 4. The nurses insisted my protocol could be started any day between day 2 - 4, they said they randomise start times (basically according to availability in their diary) and said that statistically their success rates showed it made no difference. That may well be true, but as a consultant had previously said to me that I would start on day 2, I was pretty dubious about it. I considered cancelling until my next AF, but went ahead ... and then ovulated from one side prior to egg collection. Aargh! Who knows, that could've been the lucky egg! My gut feel was that as my cycles are shorter now than they used to be, a day 2 start would've suited me better. Anyway, I'm sure if I'd done another cycle at the Lister a consultant would've written instructions for a compulsory day 2 start - but it's knowing what to insist on before the event, isn't it. You shouldn't write off the Lister though, I still think generally they're a good clinic.

How many IVF cycles are you entitled to on your health insurance? If you're entitled to a couple of cycles, you could even plan to try one IVF cycle at each clinic. If you're only entitled to one IVF cycle - frankly I'd pick the most expensive clinic to try first, as that will be covered by your insurance!

Travel and accessibility is also important. I don't live in London and I actually found the most stressful part of treatment was travelling to scan appointments (a day trip every time) with overnight stays for egg collection and transfer as I was worried about not making it on time. So if you're overseas, think about where you'll stay - I'd try to minimise travelling if possible.

Anyway I wish you luck with your decision. It will be interesting to see what others say on this, as both clinics seem like good choices to me.

*Lily* - sending positive vibes for your two little embies! You said: "if this DE cycle works I will be happy, if not will think what to do next". Seems like a super wise approach. I hope it does work for you, _BUT _ just in case not, please remember you've put yourself in a great position for what to do next!

*Highlandgirl* - anxiously awaiting your blood test result! I hope you get your BFP today 

*Hopeful_one* - any news on when you might be starting your next cycle?


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## Syd72

Beside_the_seaside, thank you so much for that thoughtful reply.  

When I said about Oxford being "one size fits all" I meant that was the feedback I hear from others.  I just don't know if that would be a problem for me given age is my "only" issue so it's not like I really need them to tailor the cycle to other issues that are going on.  When I was discussing it with the consultant at Oxford and he was saying his slight preference is for long protocol, I don't really know whether he meant in general or for me given my circumstances.  I'm not sure about drugs/doses, Lister have given me a prescription so that I'm ready to go ahead whenever but I haven't seen the drugs from Oxford.  He told me just to email him when I'm ready so presumably he'll send it all over then.  I'm covered up to a lifetime amount of USD 30,000 so could afford a couple of rounds although I would probably do one round in Bangkok to be honest as it's a much shorter flight.  I'm just trying to work out all the dates so know where I'll be at what stage in my cycle.  My first af after my miscarriage started yesterday so at least I know where I am.

I'm so sorry about your January cycle, it's devastating to lose a month under normal circumstances, doubly so under those circumstances.


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## Syd72

I've just received my repeat amh and it's actually improved!  18 months ago it was 9.9 pmol/l and it's now 11.7.  I've heard some people say it is possible to improved it and others say it's not.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - Fantastic AMH result! Very interesting that it's improved. Have you been taking DHEA? I seem to recall that the Center for Human Reproduction (CHR) in New York have published studies that showed patients gained quantitative improvements in AMH after supplementation with DHEA.

I'm sorry about my previous post, I probably didn't tell my little story very clearly. When the Lister IVF nurses scheduled my start date (in January) to coincide with my cycle day 4, I did actually go ahead (i.e. with a day 4 start) that cycle.

I could have cancelled and waited until my next AF, in order to start on day 2 (which was what the consultant had originally recommended) but I couldn't face waiting any longer. So I suppose I took a risk in deciding to trust the general info the nurses told me - i.e. that their statistics say it wouldn't make a difference to the outcome, etc.

So what actually happened is that having started my stims later in my cycle, the antagonist (or anti-ovulation drug, Cetrotide) was introduced later in my cycle, and then egg collection was also later in my cycle - at least compared to what these would've been, if they'd started my stims on day 2.

The effect was that I ovulated from the right ovary prior to egg collection - so we lost those follicles. My gut feeling is that my natural cycles have got shorter than they used to be, therefore my body didn't want to 'hang on' prior to ovulation as long as they were trying to make it hang on.

I still retrieved 2 eggs from the left and both fertilised. I got pregnant with a singleton, but sadly had to TMFR a desperately wanted little baby - a boy - at the end of April . I still think about him every day.

Of course, no one could ever possibly know what might've happened had different eggs/embryos been chosen for transfer. But the particular experience I went through is not one I would wish on my worst enemy. A BFN would've been easier, in so many ways.

Anyway - lets get back to your decision on clinics. If you can find a reputable clinic in Bangkok, it might be a better option to try first, given your HK base? Sounds like you'll have plenty of financial headroom left in your insurance for further cycles.

I would just double-check whether the policy cuts off funding on your 45th birthday in February though, as I have a vague notion that some USA policies do?

Just in case that's the case, you may wish to consider doing one 'freeze all' cycle (October or /November) - i.e. normal IVF stimulation, create embryos/blastocysts, freeze everything you get. Wait out a month, then do another cycle (December or January) and have a fresh transfer from that cycle. If that's BFN, you go back for your frozen embryos, BUT with the advantage that if you have to fund your FET yourself (because it's gone past your birthday) at least an FET is a fraction of the cost of a whole new IVF cycle.

I'm sorry if that's a bit of a negative approach to planning, but I'm in the unfortunate position of having had a miscarriage as I turned 45, plus the TMFR I mentioned aged 46, so sadly I have learned how long it takes to recover (physically, never mind emotionally) when things don't go to plan, in order to be in a position to try again.


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## Syd72

Thanks so much for this, it really is so helpful, this forum is an amazing wealth of knowledge.  Understood re your cycle, so sorry for the loss of your boy.

Weirdly one of the Bangkok clinics has just emailed me back saying one of the things I have to produce before treatment is a wedding certificate so now it's looking like the law has changed there as well.  In which case I will definitely be doing it in London.  Thank you for the tip re age 45 cut off, I'll check that.

No, I've never taken DHEA.  I've been told reflexology and acupuncture can both improve amh, I've been having reflexology for a little over a year and acupuncture for about 6 months.  I've also been taking ubiquinol for around 6 months.  I'm thrilled with the result although, of course, it's no guarantee of quality.


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## Hopeful_one

Hi ladies, just having a catch up as I don't have much to report...still waiting for AF so we can start round 2 - not sure when AF will arrive since my first treatment my cycle is a little confused!

*Lily *- I guess the waiting game starts for you now, do you have an OTD yet? Sending you lots of positive vibes and hoping those embies stick.

*Syd* - fantastic news about your AMH. I have started acupuncture and am taking ubiquinol so I hope something is happening which will help my next cycle. I'm afraid I can't help you with the clinic choice too much I'm afraid, I have only attended the Lister open day and I found them somewhat 'robotic' in their presentation hence I went with Create whom I felt were willing to tailor your treatment.

*Highlandgirl *- hope all went well today and you get the result you want. Please keep us posted on how you got on.

*Seaside* - your knowledge and wealth of information is astounding - you must spend a lot of time doing research on all matters IVF. How you you doing otherwise? When is AF/next treatment due?

Good luck to all the ladies on here....sending you all


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

Travelled down for bloods yesterday and when changing trains had blood when went to the loo so expected the bfn outcome   
Just so blessed we got as far as 2 good embryos transferred but obviously not meant to be - very sad...
We won't try IVF again as we said only one try as the constant visits with 3.5 hours trains every time and having to white lie about where I am going as no-one knows have really worn me out.
I am going to start a new thread for over 45 trying naturally as we will keep trying but I will still keep an   eye on you all here and thank you all for joining my thread to start with it is invaluable to be able to discuss everything with likeminded ladies xx
I wish all of you all the luck in the world you are all so strong xxx
If you can give me your trying naturally tips please I would be grateful - I have the clear blue digital monitor  / take pregnacare and DH takes the male version plus we both take omega 3.
Any tips welcome xx


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## highlandgirl

Hi All

As you can see by my signature just had a BFN from our 1 and only IVF round  
Going to keep trying naturally but really hoping there are other like us out there?

Xx


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## Lily0750

Very sorry to hear your sad news, *highlandgirl*. 
I hope trying naturally will be successful.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - I was gutted to read the news about your test result. I'm so sorry for you and your DH; you must be devastated. I was genuinely hopeful for you as your TX cycle had seemed to be going so well. I don't know what else to say - as *Syd *put it, it's just incredibly sad. Big hugs.

About starting a new thread for 'over 45 trying naturally'. Please don't go!

When you started this thread, you headed it most succinctly "*Over 45 With Own Eggs*" and described it in your first post as a place for "_*... anyone aged 45 or over using their OE for IVF or naturally trying for a baby*_"

And now it seems like a fair few of ladies aged at least roughly in the 45 ball-park (give or take) have found this to be a friendly and useful place to hang out, moan, swap tips, commiserate or whatever. There'll be some cheering too before long I'm sure! (*Lily*, you're next up?) As I write, the thread's had *6,558* views in what, just over 7 weeks? Hmm, a fair few lurkers too I reckon. Maybe we can tempt them out of the woodwork ....

The point, I think, is that anyone (more or less) in this age group wanting to their own old eggs a bash - as it were - is likely to have pretty similar concerns, regardless of whether they're trying naturally or with intervention: worrying about egg quality, fighting against negativity, blah, blah, blah.

We are a small enough community and we should all stick together, is my view. And some of the lurkers might even de-lurk for some mutual encouragement!


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## kittykatkins

So sorry to hear your news *HighlandGirl*, but don't leave us. Well said *BesideTheSea*, it's not how were trying to get a bfp, it's the fact we are doing it later in life that is bonding us, and it's lovely to have the support of ladies who are going through the same stresses of old eggs!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - I was thinking about any tips for trying naturally. I'm afraid I haven't got anything much that hasn't been said on here already, but I'll give it a go anyway. Apologies in advance, it's a mega long post!

*Syd* mentioned acupuncture. Totally agree that weekly sessions are great, if you can afford it (sadly my own budget won't stretch that far ...). To help find a fertility specialist near you, you could search for a Zita West affiliated acupuncturist at: http://www.zitawest.com/network/

As for supplements, the best guide I know of, if you haven't read it already, is "*It Starts with the Egg: How the Science of Egg Quality Can Help You Get Pregnant and Prevent Miscarriage*" by *Rebecca Fett* (2014). I can't recall anything that she recommends for IVF that doesn't also apply to trying naturally, or vice versa, with the single exception of *Melatonin*. She suggests that Melatonin is best avoided if you're trying naturally as it may interfere with the hormones that control natural ovulation.

I'd agree the most important supplements, as others on here have already mentioned, are Ubiquinol and DHEA.
- *Ubiquinol* is the more active form of Co-enzyme Q10. You take Ubiquinol at 300mg daily (or alternatively take Co-enzyme Q10 instead at 300mg x twice daily).
- *DHEA *is 25 mg x 3 daily (i.e. 75mg in total).

Initially I also wondered whether it was OK to take *DHEA *in the 2ww if trying naturally - I've looked into it as far as I can and I'm confident it's fine. There's an IVF clinic in New York (CHR) who claim to have initiated DHEA treatment for fertility and have done lots of research into it. They supplement all their female IVF patients aged 40 or over, "uninterrupted until conception (confirmed with second normally rising pregnancy test)". This means the second B-HCG blood test (like the test you had done on Tuesday). So from a timing perspective, that blood test would occur at the earliest at the equivalent of about 14 DPO (days past ovulation), at which point you can either confirm a pregnancy with a home urine test (HPT) and stop the DHEA, or else you get a negative test (and AF), in which case you have a little cry, and carry on taking the DHEA without a break. See e.g:

https://fertilitysupplementstore.com/skin/frontend/default/theme224k/pdfs/DHEA%20Publication%20List%202014.pdf

http://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7827-7-108

I'll add that I've never understood why DHEA always seems to be recommended as split into three daily doses - so would be grateful if anyone could shed light on this? I recall reading somewhere that it was to help guard against it possibly causing a stomach upset??

Try to stick to a *high protein* and *low carb diet* - like the Dukan diet. (I bloody wish I could take my own advice on this!) There are lots of studies of IVF cycles that show a significant and demonstrable improvement in egg quality on this regime. The example below recommends eating 25% to 35% protein and less than 40% carbs for at least three months. [ http://www.acog.org/About-ACOG/News-Room/News-Releases/2013/High-Protein-Low-Carb-Diets-Greatly-Improve-Fertility ]

My favourite ever TTC story comes from a medical correspondent in the Guardian, Dr Luisa Dillner, God bless her. She fell totally accidentally pregnant with her fifth child, aged 47, and gave birth to a healthy, full term baby girl aged 48. She wrote a whole series of articles in the Guardian about it, starting with the line: "First of all, my belt becomes tight. My low-carb diet has been working a treat so I am surprised and disappointed ..." - namely she'd clearly been doing the low carb thing for weight loss - and sticking to it well enough/for long enough for it to have made a difference! Overall, her series is a great read, check out the first article at:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/oct/24/luisa-dillner-pregnant-older-mother

*Ovulation timing* - I've never tried the Clearblue monitor, but I'd say you're on the right track there. I've always thought it's worth paying the extra for the Clearblue smiley face ovulation tests. I'm too stupid/impatient to work out those 'compare the colour of this line to that line type' of OPK.

*Temping *- I honestly could never be bothered to do this consistently (and if you don't, it doesn't work) but plenty of people swear by it. It only tells you when you've already ovulated (i.e. it doesn't predict in advance) but it's useful if it helps you to see a pattern, provided it's not more stressful than it's worth. Find instructions at https://www.fertilityfriend.com/ - you can join up for free, make pretty charts and try not to get sucked into obsessively comparing them to others in the gallery ...

My totally top tip is *DON'T* do what I did and *try naturally for too long*! I completely understand wanting to avoid the stress of hours and hours travelling to an IVF clinic, compounded by the exhaustion of the secrecy and white lies.

Hopefully you'll catch a lucky break naturally, but if after only a few months, it turns out you haven't, I'd strongly recommend you at least consider some medical intervention again? You never know, it might just be worth a try - of the (albeit limited number of) women I know personally who conceived via IVF, I only know two well enough to know much about the details, but both of those conceived on their SECOND go - i.e. not their first go, when they were still late 30's at the time.

Would it help to *go abroad for IVF*? *Kittykatkins *could tell you about Reprofit in Czech, and you'll find threads about other overseas clinics - e.g. Serum, Athens. Both of those seem like highly reputable clinics that are still pretty cost effective, despite the bloomin' post-Brexit referendum rubbish exchange rate. I'd guess that time off is precious if you and your DH run your own business, but if you _could _manage to take the time off at some point, perhaps you'd find it easier to manage and/or to be able to tell people you're going to Greece (or wherever) for a little 'holiday'?

I only ever got as far as an initial enquiry overseas, but once you actually ask, you'll probably find a few options which don't involve being overseas for very long at all. E.g. you deal with the initial consultation by skype/phone/email, start your prescribed medication/injections in the UK, then travel to the overseas clinic in time for about day 6 until egg collection on day 12/13. Depending what they do from there, you might return to UK and go back another time (for example if they're freezing everything/doing PGS testing) or stay overseas for a bit longer (like *Lily *- FX).

Another (cheaper) option which you might find nearer to your home than your IVF clinic - because you can do these type of TX cycles in non-IVF settings (e.g. some gynaes in private hospitals will supervise) - is a *super-ovulation cycle*. Lots of variants, but you basically take medication like Clomid or Femara/Letrozole, or low dose injectables (e.g. 75 iui Menopur) with either timed intercourse or IUI. I've certainly heard about women being prescribed Femara without it needing to be supervised by scans - basically a prescription of a dose that simply ensures that you ovulate - and you go home and DTD at the appropriate time!

I guess nothing will make you any less  off than you must be at the moment, but I do hope you'll find your mojo again soon x

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## gwinethblack

Hi! I have had 2 ivf attempts on my own eggs in my 30s and my amh was normal for that age and I still have gotten 2 BFNs. I think you should expect great news no matter what. You know, nature is a bit unpredictable. Some of us have more luck than others too. I will be opting for ivf de this month so I am not in your camp anymore. Wishing you the best and I hope to see you in the pregnancy thread!


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## Altai

Am so sorry about your news highland. Unfortunately very few of us in that age range could get pregnant from the first round of IVF. 
Wishing you luck trying naturally. I took femara/letrozole and low low doses of menopur (not in one cycle) for ovulation induction. 
Like Gwinnett said nature is unpredictable.
Best of luck to all


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## highlandgirl

Hi All!

I am staying and wont be going to the other thread as I know this is where I should be with all us other 45+ ers!
After all it was me who started this one!  
I am thinking of maybe trying clomid and using my fresh shiny new CB OPK to time DTD - thoughts anyone? 
I have a doc appt tomorrow so was going to try and get started as I am now on day 2 of AF after Tuesdays news and I think you have to start clomid on day 2/3/4/5 not sure? or is any other drug better? I have a regular cycle and ovulate regularly but not on every cycle?
Not one for sitting back I am going to go for it straight away  TMI     
XX
Sorry for the lack of personals but I am watching and still praying for you all at whatever stage you are at- and for you nine million lurkers lurking get out in the open and support those who have come out about their journey? 
xx


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## Flyby

I got success with Clomid as stimulation at 44 (however it was a frozen embryo transfer), but I have a feeling that it preserved egg quality better for me than injectable ovulation drugs, just my feeling as none of the four previous ones worked or produced any blastocysts, but each time I tried Clomid I got at least two blastocysts to freeze. I think it's definitely worth trying for older women. F x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Flyby* - thanks for your post, it's very interesting. I had heard that Clomid when used as the stimulation for an IVF cycle can maximise embryo quality and it obviously worked beautifully for you.

If you're still reading - do you mind if I pick your brains a little bit? Please could you say what days you took Clomid, what dose you were given? Was there any antagonist drug (like Cetrotide) also, and/or any trigger shot?

The reason I ask is that my UK clinic mentioned a couple of other things to try - including Clomid - if Gonal F isn't looking promising. I'd be very interested to know if they would use the same days/doses of Clomid as Serum did for you. Do you mind me asking how many Clomid banking cycles you did prior to your FET?

What are you up to now? Are you trying again/doing any more treatment at the moment? Have you got any blasts left in the freezer?

*Altai* - thanks for your post too about your ovulation induction drugs. Was that for trying naturally or IUI? I'm looking at your signature and wondering how you're getting on with your current treatment plans? Are you still doing mini IVF in Moscow?

*
Highlandgirl* - It sounds like Flyby and Altai are perfect candidates for a much more informed answer on Clomid / other ovulation drugs than I could ever give you, but here's my personal take on your question. Please do correct me anyone if I'm mistaken!

In the cycle immediately following an unsuccessful IVF cycle (at least for an IVF that's been done with conventional stimulation) then yes by all means try naturally, but perhaps best avoid any further ovarian stimulation? I think this 'rule' would really apply if you were proposing to do injectable drugs, but perhaps it's also worth sitting out doing Clomid, or similar, just for this month?

I had a vague thought that days 5 - 9 are the most common for Clomid, but like you say, I've also heard of it being prescribed earlier in the cycle, and also starting earlier in the cycle and then adding in injectable drugs later on.

I enquired about doing Clomid for trying naturally years ago and was told not the best option if over 40 as it tends to thin the ovarian lining. Obviously no good if you get lovely ovulation/fertilisation, but the uterine environment isn't conducive to implantation. With lots of things, I find you're often left not knowing whether you've been given one isolated opinion and the rest of the fertility community holds a different theory, but this is supported by what Flyby said about Clomid IVF and also how it's been described to me too. Basically if they use Clomid in IVF they would tend to freeze any embryos/blasts and transfer them back in a later FET. For the reason that Clomid doesn't give you the best lining (for the cycle in which you use it).

Femara/Letrozole (Femara is the brand name, Letrozole is the generic name) might be a better option to ask about. Used in similar way to Clomid, but doesn't have such negative impacts on lining apparently. I know of a couple of people who've used it successfully - and whilst it was obviously on prescription, they weren't being monitored/supervised by ultrasound scans in the cycle(s) in which they used it.

*Hopeful_one* - not seen you on here for a while - hope you're OK? 

Nothing much to report for me, still hoping - praying - I'll be in a position to have a scan in the next few days. Hopefully a good one


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - ... I should've said though, please don't let me put you (or anyone else) off taking Clomid. I was only repeating/half-remembering some advice I was given about some treatment that in fact I never took up in the end. If your medical people think Clomid's the best option then obviously go with that. And very best of luck of course!


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## moonstone5985

Seaside- found your trying naturally post v interesting. Discovered I'm not taking enough co-enzyme q10 at 200mg...balls.

But the thing about protein - I think Zita West said to avoid animal protein? What would be helpful is to know what protein they were eating in that study...I don't think it says?

I can't really follow a low carb diet unfortunately as I have intestinal issues so that's annoying.

A word also about reprofit where I went also - they gave me a 10% success rate because of age (42) and I've done one failed cycle. But very low dose drugs as previously mentioned. They did no follow up with me afterwards and I feel totally without advice on my next steps...perhaps different if you have proper appointments with a uk clinic. There was no discussion about my treatment- I was just told what to do, so I feel I slightly missed out there but maybe the result would have been the same anyway. I can't face another cycle for so many reasons primarily lack of support from a clinic I suppose.

Interested to read about the super ovulation cycles...as could I use my leftover Menopur for that then...


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## Flyby

Yes, it's fine! I took Clomid (150mg daily) from cycle day 2 all the way to trigger shot which was usually on day 9 with egg collection on day 11. Clomid keeps your LH low so there was no need for any other drugs to prevent ovulation. I produced just as many eggs as on injectables but at a fraction of the price and always better quality judging the development of the embryos.

It worked on the first frozen transfer so I have 6 blastocysts left which is torturing me as I feel so happy with my son and he is so all consuming that I don't really have the drive to go and do it all over again. Plus I have to go back to work and if I had another child I would want to spend at least the first couple of years with it before I thought about childcare which is not an option financially. However, as I say, the thought that I have embryos left is really bothering me, especially knowing the blood sweat and tears that I went through to get them!!! I did 4 banking cycles with the hope of getting enough embryos that there would be the possibility of one good one amongst them, I never imagined it would work first time and I'd be left in this dilemma!!! Plus, I know how extremely lucky I am to be in this position and I just can't let go of the thought of them. I feel bad even talking about it.

Hope some of this has been helpful to you.

Flyby.


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## TTCNK

Hi all. new to this forum - wish I had found it earlier! so nice to find a thread for over 45's!  I am almost 46 ( November) but am still TTC.  I have had 5 MC's since 43 ( all naturally conceived) and just been through 2 rounds of IVF at the Lister.  First one 12 eggs, 3 blasts but PGS showed abnormal.  Second round 11 eggs, 3 blasts but early so could not test... BFP.  So I am back to the drawing board... will take a month or to TTC naturally and research best place to go for IVF next.  I am wondering if I should do mild IVF and go for fewer and hopefully better quality eggs ( booked a chat at CREATE for this)  or if I should just go for third and final time at Lister... or Serum?.  I am so tired of the drugs - I have high NK cells.    Have ordered DHEA and taking COq 10.    Anyway wanted to say hi  and will look forward to checking in on everyone's progress!  wishing you all best of luck!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *TTCNK * - I'm sorry that you're in a position to be here (i.e. not pregnant ) but very glad that you've joined us. Yes all credit to *Highlandgirl *for starting this thread. I don't feel that I fit in on many 'over 40' threads any more: I've read too many panicky comments of the type '_OMG I've just turned 41, Eek! And my AMH has dipped below 10, Yikes!_ ...' that just drive me to want to yell 'get a grip' or else shoot myself in the face. It's a bit of an inconvenience (to put it mildly) that my desire to have a second OE child hasn't diminished in perfect unison along with the likelihood of my actually succeeding, but there you go. Tough times, but good to share with a few other similarly stubborn, like-minded ladies!

I didn't quite understand what you said about what happened in your second cycle? Were you on immune treatment for the high NK cells? Did you have a consultant review afterwards - if so did anything useful come out of it?

I did like the Lister myself and would go back there if I could afford it, but as I'm _hoping _for perhaps a couple more goes (somehow), I can't stretch to their prices. Wishing you the best of luck in your decision making.

*Flyby* - I am fascinated by your story, thanks so much for sharing! Two more questions please: did you do the 4 banking cycles back to back, or is it a one month on, one month off type of thing? Also would you mind saying what type/dose of drug your trigger shot was?

I think what I find particularly interesting is the number of failed IVF cycles you had on more conventional stimulation, followed by such great success with Clomid. Although I suspect another person might have exactly the opposite perhaps? I wonder if each of us has our own individually perfect protocol, that if the clever doctors could only identify it for us at the right time (i.e. soon enough), we'd all get what we want? Nice thought isn't it?!

Hmm, I'm not sure why you should feel bad about talking about having 6 beautiful blastocysts in the freezer though. I get that it's a dilemma, created because your cycles were more successful than you possibly had anticipated! From my perspective, I love reading success stories - I do plenty enough crying, on a daily basis, about the doom and gloom! (I know you were significantly younger at age 44 than I am now, but still.)

I can well imagine those blasts drive you nuts though. A very lovely lady once said to me that she "couldn't bear the thought of [her] potential children languishing in the freezer" (and in her case, she went back for a sibling when her gorgeous son was about 12 months old). I guess only you can ask yourself whether having to go back to work and putting a sibling in childcare at a younger age than ideally you would like, is more of an unacceptable compromise than not having another child at all ... I hope that the right answer for you, will come to you easily enough in time.

Have a good weekend everyone x


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## Flyby

Thank you, I always loved hearing success stories too, I read like crazy to try find individual stories and any other information to gauge the possibility of success despite the dismal statistics.

The cycles were back to back, thank goodness as I was paying out for so many vitamins and had been taking these for quite a while that it was all getting extremely expensive...ubiquinol by itself at 800mg a day could break the bank!!!!! I took quite an extreme approach by doing so many Clomid freeze cycles, but I wanted to make sure I was within the statistics that I so often read about and could have at least 8-10 blastocysts to work with, as I think I read that with older women, even the blastocysts have a lower chance of being healthy (think I read 1 in 8 or 10?)

I think the trigger shot was the usual one that I'd had in previous IVF cycles which if I remember rightly was 10,000iu of Pregnyl.

Yes, I'm even fascinated by my own story!!!! I still find the response to Clomid quite incredible and so extremely different from previous cycles. I know that it lets your body use its own mix of hormones to create the eggs rather than an external pre-decided does of FSH/LH. That must be a big part of the reason why older fragile eggs might fair better with it. I also wonder whether keeping the LH low might do us good as from what I gather, too much LH in older women could compromise egg quality.

I never took DHEA as Penny didn't like it and thinks it causes cysts and I also read things about it being converted into testosterone in the ovary at the expense of reducing egg quality so I didn't go down that route. I also thought I probably never lacked testosterone due to already having a natural tendency for the side effects DHEA causes like oily hair and skin, slight hairinesss etc...charming!!!

Anyway, glad I could be of some help! X


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## Knockers71

Hi it's great to find this thread! I'm 45 and about to go for my first ( and most likely last) IVF in Prague with my own eggs. I have a 9 year old who I conceived naturally at 35, but since then no joy. 
It's all happened very quickly for various reasons, but I'm taking folic acid and co enzyme q10, aspirin and am starting DHEA on the first day of my stimulation. 
Any tips would be great, but it's just good to find other women the same age as me who are ttc. 

Nicola x


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## Lily0750

Hi Knockers71,
Lister recommends to take DHEA for at least 8 weeks before the start of the treatment.


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## Knockers71

Hi Lily I have to do it this month or not at all, so I have no time to wait 3 months. When I was going to do it last year ( but we ran out of money) they said 3 months of DHEA but this time round they've said to start on the first day of stimulation. 
Nicole x


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## TTCNK

Hi Beside_the_seaside yes I am pretty stubborn and won't give up just yet! Sorry to read your story too - it is such a rollercoaster.    Highlandgirl, thinking about you too.

My second cycle was IVF and yes with the immune treatment ( I am also under Dr *******) - I got 3 blasts but they could not do PGS on them as they were not the right size - they said rather put back and gamble than let grow to Day 6 and freeze..  so I don't know if they were abnormal or whether they just did not implant. 

Any way I am going to do a follow-up with the Lister with a list of questions - ie will they agree to do "mild / natural",  I really want to look into the success Flyby had with clomid banking.  I have also made an initial consultation appointment with Create to see what they have to say too, I think I might be better with fewer drugs.  My AMH is 8.3 ( well was abut 8 months ago) so I think that is why I respond well - so I wonder if the drugs are too hard on my old eggs.    It also seems that I get pregnant when on no drugs.  I did try 5 months of super-ovulation treatment ( using letrozole / femara) each time 2 perfect looking eggs on the scan, did trigger short.. and nothing.  Shortly after I stopped taking them I fell pregnant.. just before trying IVF. 

A question to anyone - DHEA  - I am going to start taking but I found a thread on this great site "Comprehensive list of fertility supplements for Women and Men ".  When you read the links it seems DHEA increases testosterone and then another supplement suggested "myo-inositol"  decreases testosterone!!  All so confusing - I guess I should go and get a testosterone test done?  Has anyone done this?  

Lovely to follow everyone's news - I will post anything I turn up in my investigations.  I am convinced we can do this.    On the aside one of my clients fell pregnant naturally last year at 48!!  Perfect little girl.  A current client is 43 ( ok so not over 45 but getting closer) just announced she is expecting!  All these stories give me hope!

Have lovely weekends!


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## Syd72

Evening all.

TTCNK, I don't know anything about dhea I'm afraid so can't help in that one.

Had it confirmed yesterday that the law in Thailand has changed and you have to be married to have IVF so that route is out.  Now it's either short protocol at Lister or long at Oxford. I literally have no clue what to do. Also trying to sort timings as you can't do anything too close to Christmas. I feel like I'm just closing my eyes and sticking a pin in a  piece of paper.  In addition, although amh has improved fsh has worsened. It was tested before on what we thought was day 1 but turned out to be day 29 of a day 30 cycle and was 5.9, consultant said the days being slightly off wouldn't make any difference. Lister tested it on day 1 and it was 10.6 so I guess it did matter. It feels like such a big decision to take with no knowledge or understanding with which to take it.

Still trying naturally in the meantime.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*TTCNK* - Doh, finally spotted the 'TTC' + NK in your user name! It seems you have AMH to spare at a fabulous 8.3, can I have some? My impression is that the Lister don't like natural/mild cycles. Their theory generally seems to be that at least if you have good AMH/follicle numbers, as you do, then you have a better chance from a conventional stimulated cycle. (And because I don't anymore, they were frankly quite discouraging about me even trying again ...)

How well do you know the client who fell pregnant naturally aged 48? As in well enough to believe that it was in fact 'natural'? It's almost too good to be true isn't it, but a wonderful story if so!

*Syd72* - you will know that FSH fluctuates from cycle-to-cycle and an FSH of 10.6 is still absolutely fine. One of the IVF nurses at the Lister told me that if other tests look OK, they don't exclude anyone on the basis of FSH provided it's under 50 (fifty). I guess they don't think it's particularly relevant. They give you MASSIVE doses of synthetic FSH as stimulation drugs anyway don't they!

On the difference between short and long protocol. As you have good AMH, follicle numbers etc, you could perhaps give a long protocol a whirl first? It would seem the more logical way round to do it - i.e. to start with long, then move to short for a second go, if your first try should be unsuccessful. If we were all still in our 30's then probably we would all have been recommended, without hesitation, to do long protocols, as I understand that statistically they tend to be more successful? I think also with long protocol they can adjust/time the start of your stims a bit more easily, which might be a relevant advantage for you if you're travelling from overseas? Do you have a gut feeling about which clinic you prefer?

I do wish my own AMH wasn't so useless, I fear it's probably undetectable now 
Feeling pretty miserable today. Trying not to eat chocolate. Failing even in that endeavour too! (Must go before I cheer everyone up too much ...)


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## Syd72

Thank you. Beside_the_seaside, that's actually really helpful, I think you're right.

My own healthy eating isn't going particularly well, I'm  on the pringles right now, and from the hotel minibar so expensive pringles! I usually crave chocolate more in the second half of the cycle


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## Syd72

Seaside, am I right in thinking you're waiting for af to start at the moment so you can start your next round?


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## MissBabs

Hi highland girl
So sorry to read about your bfn    We're also trying naturally (with ds) after failed IVF cycles previously, I'm about to be 44 and hubby is 52. We've chosen our preferred donor and are hoping to place an order this week!!   
Sending you hugs and babydust xxx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Sorry *Nicola Knockers*, for just having commented on only the last little bit of this thread and missing you out! 

How lovely that you have a 9 year old already (girl or boy?), but when you say "since then no joy" I can't help wondering how long you've been trying? It can be soul destroying, can't it, if TTC has gone on for years? My daughter is nearly 3.5 and I've been TTC since she was 8 months old, it seems like forever, plus I feel so guilty for thinking it would just happen and putting off seeking aggressive intervention sooner.

When are you going to Prague? Which clinic are you going to? Any details of drugs protocols etc you fancy sharing - we like that stuff on here! Wishing you all the very best of luck.

About DHEA - I've been taking DHEA on and off whilst I've been TTC, but I'm starting to have a few mixed feelings about it. Something that *Flyby *said quite resonated with me: "_I never took DHEA as Penny didn't like it and thinks it causes cysts and I also read things about it being converted into testosterone in the ovary at the expense of reducing egg quality ..._" I've actually had a couple of episodes of cysts, which wasn't something I suffered from before. I had wondered whether it was just another joyful part of getting older, but maybe not? When I think about it, they've also coincided with periods of having taken DHEA for a while, but then who knows whether that's a co-incidence.

*Syd *- yes, I started AF. It's been weird - very light indeed (and definitely not pregnant). I'm now on day 3 and it's almost stopped. I'm quite freaked out by it.

I don't feel quite "right" either. I'm quite sensitive to hormone changes; so for example I get migraines from the pill, and I've always been able to tell I'm pregnant by about 3 days after conception ... so I'm now hoping this feeling of being marginally unwell and dizzy is nothing to do with the 'M' word! Perhaps I need my thyroid re-testing - I take daily meds for hypothyroidism, so maybe it's a bit unstable? Don't know.

All in all, I'm totally dreading scan on day 5 / Tuesday. That's when I'll know if I can start this cycle, or not. If it's 'not' - because of low number of follicles - I'm pretty scared that'll mean 'never', because what could change?

*Flyby* - if you're reading, could I ask you what sort of starting antral follicle numbers you had for your Clomid cycles? I was wondering if you knew what the minimum number of baseline antral follicles was that Serum would let you do an IVF cycle with? Did you speak to any of the other Serum ladies about it?


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## Rah25

Hello lovely ladies! Do you mind if I join? So relieved to find this thread as when you're - er- a more mature lady, it can feel like you're (a) the only person going through it among your peers and (b) crazy to be trying at this age. 

I am 45, single, just completed first round of IVF using donor sperm and my own eggs. Sadly it resulted in a chemical pregnancy but I was given less than 5% chance of even conceiving at this age, so I beat that! I want to use my own eggs as since I don't have a partner I want something about any baby I have to be genetically related to me in some way. My local clinic won't treat me after the age of 46 (in June for me) with oe so I'm trying to think what to do next. I believe I also don't qualify for a 3-cycle package at this age, unless anyone knows any different?

I am also not sure how I raise another £7k in a short space of time to go for it again and am looking for cheaper options but going abroad just seems too... scary, especially as I'm doing this totally on my own.

It's great to hear your stories and advice for each other... I haven't managed to read every post yet but I'll catch up with them all as soon as I can! I really need to hear happy success stories of women over 45 using own eggs - seems impossible to get a clinic to put any statistics on this "high risk" group of patients.... 

Hope you're all doing well xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Rah *- I'm sorry your first IVF was unsuccessful. You've a while to go before you're 46 though, so will you go back to your local clinic? I must admit, I found my local clinics to be most unhelpful. Two or three in the region with excellent reputations but they simply didn't want to know about anyone aged over 43 unless with donor eggs. London clinics are generally more flexible I've found.

As regards the 3-cycle package. No you probably won't qualify for the types of package that give you a partial refund or else some form of pregnancy 'guarantee'. But age shouldn't prevent you from buying a multi-cycle package that simply makes the costs per cycle cheaper, because you've paid for more cycles upfront: for example, Create do 3-cycle packages, CRGH do 2-cycle packages I think.

As for IVF abroad - can I ask what you and others think of the affordability of that option, now that the Euro (and dollar) exchange rate has got so bad, since the EU referendum? Disclaimer: I'm a total 'remoaner'. Never mind Marmite getting more expensive - what about IVF costs!


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## Hopeful_one

*Highlandgirl* - sorry to read your sad news. But I am so glad that you are not giving up!

I'm glad to see some newbies who have joined the group - welcome to you all. I hope like me, that you find this thread helpful and supportive. I'm curious to know more about a Clomid cycle especially reading your story *Flyby*.

AFM, I'm still waiting for AF and taking the vits/supplements, though this weekend was somewhat indulgent (chocolate, wine and even a G&T!)

*Seaside* - how are you doing? Hope all goes well with your scan. xx


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## Syd72

Evening all (I'm in Miami at the moment so evening for me).

Seaside, I've got everything crossed for you for Tuesday. Could well be your thyroid if you're sensitive to that kind of thing. Mine's also under active, I take thyroxine but it's been stable a long time now.

Hope everyone had a good weekend.


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## Knockers71

Hi beside the seaside, yes we've been trying for years, about 6 years now. We conceived our son straight away ( although I was 35) literally first time we tried, so I just assumed it would ok second time round. How wrong I was.....!
We're going to gynem in Prague, it's quite a new clinic but everything I've read about it is positive, apart from communication but they've been OK with that for us. I'm doing a long stimulation 10-14 days, with nasal sprays and injections, I think it's a string stim not a gentle one. This is new to me! 
I too have the guilt of not intervening earlier but I had no idea IVF cost so little abroad until last year. We've finally got the money together now, although it's costing more than we thought because of the pound dropping, grrrr to brexit. 
Hi rah25 as well xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - ooh I wish I was in Miami! Are you having a lovely holiday, or working perhaps?

I saw the GP this morning - she was very nice, she's requested a few blood tests. So I've already had the blood taken to re-test my thyroid (TSH + T4) and some other things. Then she's testing FSH (plus oestradiol, LH) just after next AF for accuracy. Fingers crossed that if anything it's something fixable!

*Hopeful_one* - good to hear from you. Any idea when you expect AF to put in an appearance? Will you go for your second cycle at Create once it has done?

*Knockers* - I googled Gynem as I hadn't heard of them - they look interesting! Hopefully they'll be very modern and up-to-date, being a relatively new clinic. I also noticed their prices - yes they are competitive aren't they! Re IVF with ICSI - their price list shows it as "1,990 EURO / 1,650 GBP". But when I've converted EUR to GBP just now, I make that £1,800 - like you say, the effect of the rubbish post-Brexit exchange rate. Do you think they might let you still pay it as £1,650??!! (Not entirely joking ...)
Yes Grrrr to Brexit indeed. Perhaps some of the hard brexiteers might argue that we managed just fine in merry old 1950's England with none of this new fangled technology, and we ought to do without any intereference with our fine British bodies from these continental European types ... 

Czechoslovakian drugs? Sign me up.


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## TTCNK

Hi all,  

Apologies if I forget to comment on everyone's post - I am still figuring out the navigation on this site!  Hope you're all having a good Monday!

Seaside  - the client I mentioned I don't know well but it was a surprise it seems - I guess there is always the possibility she kept it to herself and did DE.    I read you're starting a new 3 cycle with Create - good luck! My view is as long as you have an AMH reading there are eggs.. and it only takes one good one!  I might have 8.3 but haven't found that good one yet!.    I think Create  this might be my next route.  Why would you prefer Lister?  Are you doing natural / mild?  I do like Lister - have my follow up next week and will see what they think.

I got in touch with Serum - got a response the same day - they sound lovely but they did suggest donor eggs straight away which I was surprised about - have gone back to as about OE but also the clomid banking and who it is best for.

Until then it is natural for me.. and I remain determined!


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## Syd72

Hi Seaside, it's work sadly although I did get to relax a bit at the weekend.  Will be interested to see your blood test results if you don't mind sharing.  My reflexologist (who specialises in fertility) says doctors like to see you at a certain level but they (alternative practitioners) prefer to see the level a bit lower for ttc.  I can't quite remember what the levels are, will see if I can find out.

TTCNK I see such great recommendations for Serum all the time, everyone raves about the clinic director.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd*: My test results will be a few days coming back. Generally on thyroid stuff: I think most UK GP's are happy with TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone) levels of anything under 5.5 mu/L, but you're right, the fertility community like to see you a bit lower than that. For example, a consultant endocrinologist I saw when first diagnosed, plus the NHS consultant obstetrician who looked after me when pg with my daughter, wanted *TSH below 2.5 mu/L*, and ideally below 2 mu/L.

I don't think it's the case that TSH is the lower the better though. If I've been below 1, then I can feel a bit jittery, but last year it went as low as 0.3 without me particularly noticing. I'd suffered a bereavement, caught pneumonia and as a result lost quite a of weight really quickly. So I was over-medicated - basically sent me the other way (hyperactive thyroid) and my periods stopped. As I'd just turned 46 there was general shrugging of shoulders from doctors and talk of hitting the menopause, but once I'd sorted the dose out, everything gradually came back to normal. Meanwhile I'd lost yet another 6 months in putting off the IVF I'd been planning to have, in thinking really what's the F point, but that's another story.

*Free T4* should be a reasonable amount above 10 pmol/L: reference range, depending on the lab, is usually something like *10 - 19.8 pmol/L*. I tend to feel best around 13 - 14, sometimes up to 16 pmol/L.

I think basically what you're aiming for when TTC is the same levels as would be recommended in the first trimester of pregnancy. I'm sure there's some NICE guidelines somewhere (probably), but this is good info, albeit really detailed, if you want to knock yourself out:

http://www.btf-thyroid.org/images/documents/ATA_guidelines_on_hypothyroidism_in_pregnancy.pdf

One tiny positive that came from my GP chat is that she'd tested my FSH in July (I think) and I'd literally been too scared to ask for the result. Turns out it was 9, so perhaps not a total disaster. Made me feel better for about 3 minutes ...

*TTCNK* - just personal preference about the Lister. I preferred the environment and thought the general feel is more professional and businesslike. I find that's particularly noticeable with the IVF nurses and admin staff, although arguably, perhaps those aspects aren't as terribly important. Lister consultants and embryologists are definitely first rate I think, I'm not saying they're not at Create ... it's just different.

However, the Lister were really NOT keen on very low stimulation or natural IVF cycles and I think that's my only option now, unfortunately. Create have got me on what they term 'natural modified': so low dose stims (only 150 iui Gonal F) for fewer days (start day 5 instead of day 2-3, trigger on day 9-ish, EC on day 12-ish).

Did you get back to Serum with a query about own eggs? You should - I'd be delighted with your AMH/ovarian reserve. I'm sure you just received a stock answer about donor eggs based on your age. I'd be very interested to see what they say - do let us know?

I pretty much start off any enquiry/conversation by emphasising something along the lines of that "I fully appreciate that my most realistic chance would be via donated eggs, but I don't want to do that." I want to avoid wasting the other person's time and (further) upsetting myself. I don't think I should have to justify myself particularly: yes of course donor eggs are a wonderful option for many people, just like emigrating to Australia and living by some world renowned beach would be a wonderful option for many people, but I'm not doing that either. Your personal life is your personal life isn't it? I don't spend a deal of time having to explain why I'm not hankering after sleeping with my next-door-neighbour, as opposed to my DP (with all his faults, not to mention his bloomin' anti-sperm antibodies). So I get very uncomfortable when people make what I find to be challenging and aggressive assumptions that if I still want to parent another child I MUST therefore also want, in equal measure, to conceive with donor eggs, or adopt a child, rather than simply either have another genetic child, or grieve the fact I can't have another genetic child (and it really is agony), if it comes to that.

Seaside x

(Not at Miami Beach. Which would be nice.)

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## Syd72

See, I should have known that you'd be fully informed on all thyroid stuff already


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## Rah25

Seaside I'm totally with you about people's assumptions and the OE thing... I know it's because us youngsters aren't renowned for our super AMH levels, our beautiful follicles, our plentiful supply of quality eggs, our general springness of chicken, but it doesn't mean we automatically need or want DEs or to adopt a child! I understand general ignorant people (well-meaning friends/family usually) saying things like this to appease us but when it comes from a clinic I find it so insulting and hurtful. I guess they are just hedging their bets and trying not to give us false hopes, but there's no reason for them to suggest there's NO hope!! 

It's really interesting to hear other people's views on the Lister, Create, Serum etc and how they differ from my local clinics. One of the reasons I am considering going again with my local clinic, even though their admin is pretty shoddy and they are expensive, is because I don't want to have to waste even more time starting again with initial consultations, waiting for test results, having to pay for my clinic to release information and test results to someone else, and generally just waiting around for people to communicate with other people ... might as well go back where they have my notes and history already, but I'm not 100% happy to do so. It sounds like these other places are pretty hot on getting stuff done and doing it well. Any recommendations and reasons why would be gratefully received (... are we allowed to do that here?... don't want anyone to get into trouble!)

Have any of you had experience of using a clinic for your testing and the actual treatments, scans, collections/transfers etc but using an independent company for your medication, to make it a little cheaper? 

And yes the whole Brexit thing just adds insult to injury when you've been saving for ages and suddenly you can no longer afford something that seemed within reach a few months ago!!!

I hope you're all doing well. I saw the posts about Brazil nuts so I went and bought some today. Ugghh they taste both disgusting and of nothing, if that's possible! Any suggestions of ways to disguise them in other tastes/textures also gratefully received!! 

Sending you all big healthy and fertile hugs xx


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## Flyby

Beside the Seaside, I didn't have any baseline scans done when doing Clomid cycles, just got there on day 8 for a scan and usually triggered the next day. The aim was to get more than one egg as I didn't want to travel all that way for a natural cycle and risk having nothing, I felt that going for the one egg was just too risky, especially at my age and the possibility of it not being healthy, even though we wanted to try a more natural protocol, so this was the compromise. 

I agree with you about starting off by communicating that you want to try with your own eggs and that you are aware of how much more difficult this route will be, but it is one you want to take. That will just keep the donor conversation out of the way while you focus on what you want. They are very good at at listening and going with things you might want to try, but might still offer other opinions/options for you to think about without being forceful or anything, but at no point did they make me feel there was no hope.

At age 42 I think my FSH was 12.6 so goodness knows what it was by 44, but Serum don't bother with FSH or AMH, they just work with what they have and do their best with each individuals circumstance.

During my period of cycling there, there was a 44 year old who got pregnant with her own eggs and had twins and a 45 year old who used her own eggs and had a daughter. But I know there have definitely been older people than that there who have conceived with their own eggs, particularly Greek women who don't tend to easily accept treatment with donor eggs.

Flyby x


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## Knockers71

Hi all, yes beside the seaside the prices have gone right up! I guess I can't offer 1650 rather than 1800+ as they will lose money! I sent my deposit of 1000 euros last week which would have been about £700, now it's £930!! Bloody little englanders. 
I understand how you feel and Rah25 feel about de, i just want to try my own eggs first, maybe I'll feel differently if it fails! My results are pretty poor, my AMH was 0.8 a year ago and my fsh 9, and I only have 5 follicles so my expectations aren't high. 
I'm also hypothyroid! 

Nicola x


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## moonstone5985

Ok so I realised I'm not over 45 - sorry. but i'm having the same issues and problems so hope you don't mind me contributing.

I'm worried about what was said about DHEA causing cysts. I've just bought loads of dhea - enough for 6 months!! but i had pcos so is it not wise to take it?? Had - because doctors say i don't have it now, last scan said no cysts. 

Also i'm worried because i've had mixed messages about my hormones - my progesterone indicated i wasn't ovulating. does that mean that any amount of supplements won't really help that problem? myo inositol might help but i'm wondering if i need to go back to the gp and say i want clomid? why wouldn't a gp just give me clomid rather than referring me for ivf...

what is clomid banking btw? 

i'm wondering if i should go and have a consultation with someone just to settle my worries.. definitely agree Flyby that producing just one egg is too risky. which is what happened to me.


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## TTCNK

Hi all,

Well Serum got back to me ( they are lovely and efficient) and said fine to treat using OE's which is good. Totally agree with all comments - it is so personal - I need to see this through first. I do worry about what protocol to use - I said I heard about clomid banking and they said yes could be an option. Anyway I asked for a phone chat rather than flying out there and they are ok to do that which is great. I can't figure how I will get out to Athens for a normal cycle. I know I should prioritise this but life gets in the way. So hoping to chat to penny in next week or so and will keep you posted.

On DHEA. ( Moonstone I worry like you) My other plan is to get my testosterone tested - think I'll just get one of those home finger prick tests as the thought of more Dr's appts just drives me nuts. If it is normal I guess I will take DHEA, if elevated I won't. Turns out the Pregnacare Max I take as 100mg of myo-insitol in it anyway but I might take some more as I have insulin resistance tendencies I think . At 43 my AMH was 26 ( not a typo!) optimal fertility range the report says. This was my first ever AMH test,.. that Dr said could be PCOS related, next Dr I saw said no they were wrong I don't have PCOS. Either way my AMH is now 8.3 so who knows what happened. Nothing like self diagnosis.. desperate times!

A more radical approach - given I have cupboards full of meds left over - I might just pop a few femara / letrozole tablets and see what happens.. not that they worked in the past but that would essentially be clomid banking... without the IVF... I know a bad idea but the likelihood of more than one good egg for me is low!!

Have good days everyone!

Please Note: Fertility Friends does not endorse any type of self medication/DIY drugs administering. We strongly advise you to seek advice from your GP/clinic on any aspects when self administering drugs of this nature and do not do so without professional medical supervision/approval.


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## highlandgirl

Hi miss babe and anyone reading this thread - we are over on another thread own eggs age 45 - come on over!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Well, I've had a dreadful day, but more of that particular tale of woe later. (I'm really selling it aren't I!) Nice to have a bit of distraction and read what everyone else is up to.

*Highlandgirl* - how are you? I'm genuinely grateful you set up this thread, finding somewhere to vent feels like a bit of a saving grace sometimes ...

*Syd* - are you feeling any closer to choosing your clinic?

*Rah* - About trying again with your local clinic - there's certainly lots to be said for just cracking on with things quickly. Like I absolutely failed to do myself, so particularly appreciate the value of NOT hanging around, with hindsight! Oh hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?!

*Flyby* - thanks for your info. I rather like the sound of Serum's approach (i.e. start your meds on your own, scan day 8, trigger day 9, collection) - seems very businesslike! And certainly got the job done in your case! I'm trying to remember what you said about the numbers of blastocysts you got. Was it 8 from 4 cycles? So to get around 2 blasts per cycle, you must have had a few eggs collected each time? I'm just wondering how many eggs you'd need to have that sort of hit rate!

*TTCNK* - I'd be very interested to hear more about what Serum recommend once you've had your chat with them - and what you decide to do. Am totally envious of the state of your ovaries as being so much better than mine, but nevertheless, still hoping I might learn something of use!

Nicky *Knockers * - when are you off to Gynem? Exciting stuff - everything crossed for you!

*Moonstone* - what, you're not over 45? You imposter you! Seriously, of course you're more than welcome to stay and chat! That is provided you absolutely NEVER moan about how very ancient you are at 42!

Don't give up on the supplements. Even if you're not ovulating every month, the supplements ought still to be helping your egg quality for those occasions when you do ovulate. If PCOS is the reason you don't always ovulate, then myo-inositol ought to help. Have you heard of Inofolic? Lots of info on this website and you can also buy it from there too: 
http://inofolic.org.uk/the-role-of-inofolic/
"... It produces ovulation in the majority of women with anovulation due to PCOS and is effective for those who have previously failed with clomiphene citrate...."

Were you asking about Clomid? I could be wrong, but I've never heard of GP's prescribing it. I think normally they refer you to a NHS fertility unit in a hospital-type setting, or you self-refer to a clinic privately. Isn't it normally used as a first line treatment, with timed intercourse or IUI? Here's some examples:
- https://www.cmft.nhs.uk/media/456290/13%2005%20clomid.pdf
- http://www.bwnft.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/images_downloads_pdf_196_Ovulation_Induction.pdf

When people here have talked about Clomid embryo banking, it's been in the context of using Clomid in place of other stimulation drugs (like Gonal F or Menopur) in an IVF cycle. So you'd still have an egg collection procedure. The 'banking' part is just freezing the resultant embryos/blasts so you can (a) stash up a few from consecutive cycles, and/or (b) overcome the fact that Clomid can make your lining totally rubbish in the cycle in which you take it - so not great for implantation.

However, if you've got great AMH/lots of follicles, and want to try IVF (again?), I'd have thought you're probably better off with a more conventional protocol that tries to get more eggs out

*Lily* - how are you? I'm losing track - when is your OTD, isn't it coming up soon?  Wishing you the very best of luck!

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## Beside_the_seaside

OK I'm going to say this quickly (yes that'll be a first for me) as I'm so [CENSORED] [CENSORED] [CENSORED] off (there, I've saved the FF profanity police the trouble ...) I'm likely to start crying. Again.

Baseline scan was even worse that I had feared. Only a paltry THREE antral follicles to start off with. One looks like it could grow, the others probably won't. It looks like baseline scans are getting worse: Pre-IVF assesment in July = 5 antrals. First IVF with Create in August = 5-6 antrals ... and now THIS.

Last year, when like a freakin' lunatic I decided to have ultrasound monitoring of cycles from July - December to support totally wasting my time trying naturally (I'm ashamed to even write it down, it was so crazy ...) I'd start with 5 or 6 follicles in EACH OVARY, occasionally 4 in one of them, perhaps. What I'd give for those 10 - 12 follicles now! In case anyone's missed the million times I've moaned about it, it wasn't until we went for IVF in January 2016 we found that DP has massive high level of antisperm antibodies and couldn't get a 20 year old pregnant. I'm assuming he's not actually tried ...

Ugh, I feel physically sick. Could hardly be bothered to inject myself with Gonal F. But duly stabbed myself in the stomach as what else can I do? It's a binary option: to cycle or not. No point waiting for the situation to get even worse (if that's possible).

So the most positive outcome I can hope for is that I retrieve the single egg that seems to be available and it manages to make a freezable embryo. Like *Flyby *said, it's a huge risk to be going for one egg and not something I'd do if there were any other options 

Sad seaside x


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## Rah25

Oh Seaside, I'm so sorry to hear things aren't going as you'd hoped ... but there's no reason to give up yet - I'm fairly new to all this compared with a lot of folk but it does strike me, with everyone's different stories, that things can happen when you least expect, despite all odds, despite what doctors have said, despite this or that level of whatever... things can go wrong, but miracles can and DO happen... sure it's important not to get hopes up but it's also important to try and stay positive for your own sanity! Don't forget it's quality not quantity... and you mustn't beat yourself up with saying you were wasting your time trying naturally - we do what we think is the best thing at the time, just because hindsight is a smug cow it doesn't mean you did anything wrong then. But I totally understand you must be feeling very angry and disappointed and probably a bit cheated right now. Crossing everything for you that at least one of those follicles is a determined fighter xxx


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## Flyby

Beside the Seaside, the first banking cycle I had 6 follicles on day 8 scan (4 eggs collected) became 2 blastocysts, the second cycle I had 4 follicles on scan (4 eggs collected) got 2 blastocysts, the third cycle I had 4 follicles on scan (5 eggs collected) got 2 blastocysts. Then the fourth attempt I had 6 follicles on scan and had 6 eggs collected, all of them fertilised and astonishingly got 4 blastocysts from that final cycle!!!!

In a way it was a relief to have no baseline scan as there was nothing to worry myself about, other than hoping there would be more than one, but knowing I'd have to be ok if we still got one rather than none! I know that most, (if not all) the the positive success stories at Serum for over 45s, particularly the Greek people, seemed to be natural cycles with mostly one egg collected, so I think there's a lot to be said for a drug free regimen. Just was too scared to do this myself in case I had nothing as it was too far to go for that risk.

Try not to worry about the amount of follicles on scan and hope that you will recruit the best egg anyway and there's always a possibility that more will grow 🙂 XxX


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thank you so much *Rah *and *Flyby *for the little pep talk!

*Rah *- re your earlier question about whether anyone has used a clinic for their testing and actual treatment (scans/collections/transfers etc) but used an independent company for medication, to make it cheaper.

I forgot to say that I'm now on my second clinic, but have got a private prescription and bought my medication independently both times.

The Lister consultant gave me a private prescription as a matter of course (i.e. without my having to ask for it), then advised me to get it dispensed either from the pharmacy within the Lister hospital, or home delivery via 'Healthcare at Home' (I think), or else order it via my local pharmacy (Boots, Lloyds, wherever). I'd heard that Asda pharmacy try to do IVF drugs on a 'not for profit' basis and having rung round a few places (literally have to speak to the pharmacist and get them to quote you for each item on your private prescription) they did turn out to be cheapest. Really not by very much, at least when compared to the hospital pharmacy, but it all helps.

Create IVF clinic rather assumed I would order drugs through them and the IVF nurse was all set to organise it for me - I think it was via Stork: http://wearestork.com/patient.php But their prices were also more expensive than Asda, plus home delivery (rather than collecting it from the clinic) was an extra £50 - £80 I think. Needless to say I asked for a private prescription and sorted it out myself.

Asda don't carry this stuff in their stock though, you pay in advance and they order it for the next day. Actually I mentioned to the pharmacist yesterday exactly how much per unit they were cheaper than the clinic and she said (what a nice honest lady) that it's always important to compare prices as depending on what you've been prescribed, sometimes clinics have better bulk buy discounts than they do - she thought Menopur might be an example of that. Moral of story is - it's probably worth at least ringing round to check.

*Flyby* - wow, those are great egg numbers, I would've been delighted! And >50% to blastocyst sounds fantastic! Am I right in thinking you said you never got blasts before Clomid, i.e. never on injectables?

For me, it looks like I've gambled a year too far on any hope of getting such good numbers. July 2015 - December 2015 I was already 46-0 to 46-6 months old, so quite why I was going for the natural option is beyond me. Except that at the time I only had money for ONE IVF cycle and was afraid to ACTUALLY go for it and fail, I think, because then what? ('Then what' turns out to be go slightly crazy from my TFMR, decide to borrow loads of cash and worry about it later - so I'm now a financial AND ovarian disaster zone!)

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## Syd72

I'm really sorry the scan went so badly seaside. I really hope at the very least that one good folicle gives you a beautiful healthy egg.


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## Beccaboo88

Hi I know I'm not over 45 but just wanted to tell you that there are so many women out there that are in their 40s doing ivf with their own eggs my step mum did I think she only had 5 collected but them 5 were good eggs and it worked for her she was 45 at the time. Good luck to you xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks so much for the lovely support, *Syd *and *Beccaboo*!

*Beccaboo *- many congratulations on the birth of your little girl in July, how wonderful! Thank you so much for stopping by to report your step mum's success with IVF, it'll be encouraging to many of us on here I'm sure!


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## Flyby

Yes, that's right, never had a blastocyst before Clomid. Only ever had two and three day transfers and when we did try once to leave them to go to blastocyst we had nothing left on day five. I was convinced from then on that they were never reaching blastocyst inside me. That's what's so astonishing about the effect of Clomid, I think my body liked giving its own hormones to the developing eggs!! F x


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## Agaamh

Hello,

I am happy that I found this topic. I would like to join your group. I had two ICSI treatments, unfortunately not successful.  I am curious if you considered the treatment in Denmark (here the age limit is 46) or in Warsaw (no age limit). I underwent the procedure in Belgium, now I am not allowed anymore due to the age limit. My AMH is quite low 0,4 ng/ml and FSH 8,9 U/L. The first time I had a long protocol and produced only 5 eggs, two of them classified as 8AA I got back, unfortunately BFN. I also underwent hysteroscopy (diagnostic)and endometrial biopsy: No pathology was detected and the immune histochemical examination was also OK. The second treatment was on the natural cycle with clomid  and low dosage of menopur (75j). I had three eggs and two (this time 2AA) I got back. BNF. I also was recommended to take the DHEA (3 x 25), Co-enzyme Q10 and Vitamine D, of course folic. I also taking very low dosage of thyroxine as according to the doctor, the TSH should be lower that 2,5 mU/L.
As from the puncture I took a immune suppressor in a low dosage.
I want to try the third time and looking for a clinic. The clinics in Denmark are quite flexible regarding the contact via phone, sending emails etc.
I think, this time, I would also try on a higher dosage of clomid, and possibly combined with gonal or menopur to have a proper endometrium thickness. xx


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## highlandgirl

Ladies! 

So sorry for not coming on for a few days just adjusting to the bfn and assessing our options going forward  
To the new ladies who have joined thank you so much for coming to join a thread I started but never imagined how much support and encouragement I would receive from all you wonderful women out there thank you x

I am slightly losing the personals as we have a number of us on here now but I am delighted there is a place for us over 45ers to talk / rant / moan / encourage / advise / inform and laugh if possible through what is a tough time for us all. Xxxx

Beside - I still think you need to remember you are getting 5 and 6 follies I only had 4 on EC day so stay positive xx
Ttcnk - welcome and what a good AMH you have! X
Rah - welcome to the thread and thank you for joining us x
Moon - I think you are looking at / on a clomid cycle keep us posted x
Knockers - welcome and keep trying x
Hope - I am on the chocolate and wine diet too good luck x
Syd - always wanted to go to Miami   keep us updated on your international story x
Lily - how are you? X
Becca - thank you for your post it is very encouraging x
Agaamh - welcome and thank you for joining x

Anyone else out there please come on and join this wonderful group  

After a lot of calls etc we have now established that we can have scans and bloods done at the local hospital on a private basis which would have saved a lot of time and stress during the recent tx. 
I have had a review telephone conversation with my consultant and they have offered to work with the local hospital which means we would only have to travel for EC and ET. This would save us the 3.5 hours travel and the stress of lying about where we were going   clinic will offer me either clomid of another cycle of IVF before xmas although my consultant has said that clomid would not work for me and said even IVF is only a slim chance as the reason our tx didn't work as my eggs were probably abnormal and this will be the issue whether we try naturally / clomid / IVF   
I am now in a real quandary as I only found out about my bfn last Tuesday and it would mean I would be back on down reg pills in 2 weeks time if we were going for IVF before xmas.
I wish I had 3 months to wait to get my weight under control have some good nights out ( so we could actually DTD without having to overthink it sorry if that's TMI ) and a good xmas and a much needed holiday( haven't been away since jan 2015 ) then try again but as we all know time is most definately not on our side ..... 
I am only beginning to feel normal today but still have a slight AF which has lasted a week now  
Sorry for the looooonnnngggg post but I needed to get it all out x
Can't decide what to do xx

Sorry just realised I missed you ladies  

Fly - thx for your info and input x
Kitty - when is your next cycle? X
Gemini - how r u?x


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## Gemini40

Hi Highland, I am still pondering what to do. I am tracking ovulation and have an appointment with the acupuncturists next week to see if he can jiggle up my ovaries a bit. I have also made an appointment with a clinic in Nov to discuss de cycle again. It is about 3 hours from me so I might try to link in with a local hospital if I do go that route. There is a lot of talk about clomid, is that something I can get a script for? Is it supposed to be better for low ovarian reserve?

You are likely still very emotional from the recent disappointment, would waiting to Jan be a possibility for you? Thinking about what you consultant said about eggs, mine didn't fertilise normally at all in OE cycle last year. But consultant said a spontaneous pregnancy is still possible


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone, besidetheseaside I am going to Prague next Thursday I think, expecting my period to arrive on Friday. It's all very weird this waiting, not knowing when it's actually going to happen, I can't book anything until my period starts. I'm very on edge and not sleeping greatly, but I guess that's normal. 
Regarding follicles, I'm really new to this, but I only had 5 in total at my scan a few weeks ago, is that really bad? 

Nicola xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - next Thursday? How exciting! Perhaps you'll be able to post from Prague and let us know how you're getting on?

As for your scan, five follicles is FINE! From what I've been told, it will vary month to month, perhaps by one or two follicles each side. Also, it does depend what day of your monthly cycle you had the scan done. If it was between day 2 - 5, they can usually count more smaller ('antral') follicles. Mid cycle, or later in your cycle, they often can't see the smaller follicles so well. I'd say especially if you had five follicles at mid-cycle, that's pretty good, you could get five eggs from that!

Very best of luck for your trip. Have you decided what you will book - in terms of hotels etc - once you get your period? How long will you need to stay for?

I'm unfortunately in the position of whingeing about numbers in the one's and two's - at baseline! Aaaaargh! At the moment I just feel permanently sick at the idiocy of not proceeding with the IVF in late 2014 / early 2015 when still 45, with the opportunity, money and some impetus ... and all that just petered out somewhere, in favour of trying naturally. Because I conceived my daughter naturally, so OBVIOUSLY it was still going to happen easily at 45. Lunatic  .

Today I'm having another scan (day 7) and pick up my thyroid results. Bizarrely hoping the thyroid tests will be  , because will freeze any embryo(s) from this cycle anyhow and it MIGHT explain low follicle numbers. Maybe? (Going off to find more straws to clutch at ...)

Waves to *Flyby, Agaamh, Gemini*! *Highlandgirl *- good to 'see' you back again, hope you're bearing up OK?

Will try to be back later - Seaside x


----------



## Knockers71

Hi seaside I feel like that too, tried naturally for years as we conckeved our son naturally.  Neatly ten years later and I'm 45.... Oh well, there really is no point in torturing ourselves with what ifs. Is is what it is. 
Ah thankyou so much for the reassurance re follicles! It was mid cycle, I had just ovulated and they could see the dominant follicle. 
I want to stay in an Airbnb type apartment when I'm in Prague with my husband and son,  and then when I'm on my own in a hotel, hopefully with facilities to make myself something if I don't want to go out. I'm really anxious about being there on my own, I hardly slept last night worrying about it. It might be 9 days on my own  
Good luck with your scan! You're about a week ahead of me. My drugs arrived today, just waiting for my period to arrive, no sign yet! 
I also need to get my thyroid checked! 

Nicola X


----------



## gwinethblack

Agaamh said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am happy that I found this topic. I would like to join your group. I had two ICSI treatments, unfortunately not successful. I am curious if you considered the treatment in Denmark (here the age limit is 46) or in Warsaw (no age limit). I underwent the procedure in Belgium, now I am not allowed anymore due to the age limit. My AMH is quite low 0,4 ng/ml and FSH 8,9 U/L. The first time I had a long protocol and produced only 5 eggs, two of them classified as 8AA I got back, unfortunately BFN. I also underwent hysteroscopy (diagnostic)and endometrial biopsy: No pathology was detected and the immune histochemical examination was also OK. The second treatment was on the natural cycle with clomid and low dosage of menopur (75j). I had three eggs and two (this time 2AA) I got back. BNF. I also was recommended to take the DHEA (3 x 25), Co-enzyme Q10 and Vitamine D, of course folic. I also taking very low dosage of thyroxine as according to the doctor, the TSH should be lower that 2,5 mU/L.
> As from the puncture I took a immune suppressor in a low dosage.
> I want to try the third time and looking for a clinic. The clinics in Denmark are quite flexible regarding the contact via phone, sending emails etc.
> I think, this time, I would also try on a higher dosage of clomid, and possibly combined with gonal or menopur to have a proper endometrium thickness. xx


If you are still considering new clinics, you can look for those in Ukraine. They don't have any age limits there for ivf and it is not that expensive. I am currently contacting the clinic there and have already arranged the appointment for the end of this month. Now they gave me the donors list and I am sitting all day long choosing the donors. As I know they will provide you with their own medications though.
PS I have seen lots and lots of articles about women in their 60 and even 70 getting ivf de treatment in Ukraine and getting their BFP. It's all over the internet.


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## TTCNK

Hi Beside the seaside - so sorry to hear about scan.  I have my fingers crossed for you.    Everyone is different - I know it's a cliché but you only need the one good egg!.  We all beat ourselves up - I get loads of eggs but they are all abnormal !! 23 to date and nothing!! I am looking just for that one!. You never know what can happen.  You are doing all you can - cycling, TTC naturally .  Keep looking for those straws.. I find as long as I am researching and doing something positive I feel a little less frustrated.  I hope those test shed some light.
Take carex


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## Beside_the_seaside

I'm shattered today, worry and negativity is quite exhausting! I went to have my 3 sorry little follicles scanned, it's possible that 2 are on the move, we'll see.

Thanks for your kind comments *TTCNK*. The nurse was also lovely today and gamely dredged up a few of the 'you only need one' type of BFP anecdotes. Best guess for egg collection is Tuesday/Wednesday. (Theatre Consultant will probably wish all cases were like me so could knock off home early.)

Thyroid results came back at TSH 1.6. Apparently the only bit of me that is text book perfect. V. grumpy I can't blame my follicle holiday on something fixable. 

*Highlandgirl* - honestly I think you're a great role model for us all, picking yourself up to try again after your recent disappointment. Bit of a dilemma though. I agree with *Gemini40* that it's a big ask emotionally to start down regging again so soon (3 weeks?) after your BFN.

I'm trying to understand your timescale. So if you started down reg early Nov, you could get egg collection in by late Nov(??), but if you skip until the following cycle, you'd need to be doing your treatment over Christmas when your IVF clinic is likely to be closed?

OK, down regging early Nov is one option - and may well be the best one. But just to see how the alternatives feel, have you scheduled for yourself when you might expect your next few AFs and worked the dates out? Could you do Clomid and TX naturally from your next AF? Then if Clomid doesn't work, could you down reg over Christmas (shouldn't matter if clinic is closed if you're just taking tablets) and start IVF in very early Jan? Either way - you're doing something. At least you're not stupid enough to leave it over a year (and the rest) like I did!

*Agaamh *- are you based in Belgium? I'm afraid I know very little about treatment options outside UK. The age limits are interesting, I didn't know that: Belgium - up to 45th birthday, Denmark - up to 46th birthday (but according to Google, 48th birthday for Frozen Embryo Transfer). I remember reading some articles on the BBC years ago about how popular Denmark was becoming for IVF patients from the UK - they have some very reputable clinics as I understand it. I can't say I've heard of Warsaw/Poland as being a particularly well-used destination for IVF. I have the (relatively uninformed) impression that ladies who want to take advantage of age limits being 50, or older, tend to prefer Spain, Greece, Cyprus?

Have you tried the international threads on Fertility Friends for advice? http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=261.0 (Although please don't leave us, keep posting here too!)

Would be interested to see what you choose in terms of clinic and protocol?

*Knockers* - How many days will your husband and son be in Prague with you? I'm sorry you're anxious about the part when you'll be staying on your own. I'm sure it's only natural and it's all in a very good cause of course! Have you got one of those "10 top things to do" type of guide books to find things to do to fill some of the downtime? That's after you've filled us in on your excellent progress of course! Have you tried any of the Prague (or Gynem) cycle buddies type threads? Maybe you could meet up with someone in a similar position? Perhaps *Flyby *could advise on how to successfully survive a foreign trip - she must be an expert!.

*Lily* - hope you're doing OK, any news? Sending you positive thoughts!

Time to think about bed. My 2 little follicles need a rest. They are VERY old, after all.


----------



## Rah25

It sounds like you're a little brighter today *Beside the Seaside*...  It's no wonder this is such an emotional rollercoaster when we're constantly at the mercy of science and nature.... I hope you can start to put a bit of faith in it all again, though I know it can be hard.

*Highlandgirl* I'm thinking of starting again asap on the down regging too, and I literally miscarried my 2 little embies less than a week ago... but I don't feel I have much time left and don't want the chance to be talked out of it and I already feel I have wasted so many years... being with the wrong men, mostly! Would like to get started well before Christmas, I guess it depends on next AF and I also have to make a first stop at the sperm shop so that might delay things a little - but my clinic is closed for 2 weeks over Christmas so I need to kind of plan it around that too, annoyingly. Why do they close for Christmas when nature doesn't?!!

It would be interesting to hear what you decide to do and whether you decide to go ahead this soon.

This sounds a bit weird and I don't mean it to come out quite this way... but I can see how this treatment can almost become like an addiction, it can have that powerful an effect, raising endorphins so high, even all the stress and anxiety and worrying can itself become something that's almost needed, or craved, to make us feel "whole", or like we're really actually doing something to make things happen (a bit like what you said *TTCNK* about keeping researching etc). I definitely feel like I've come down from some kind of high, and it's not just losing the embies and being hormonal, it's losing the whole 'experience', however stressful it was, and now feeling like I've stopped actually doing something about it. My hat goes off to you ladies who have tried over and over again, you're amazing and super strong as it takes so much courage and so much out of you physically and emotionally. I think it's easy to lose sight of that when you're going through it.

*Knockers* - You're very brave thinking of going to Prague and being there so long on your own but what a beautiful city to be stranded in! Let's face it, even with the loveliest of DPs, girlfriends, close family and mates and wonderful support groups like this we really do go through this thing totally alone ...maybe ACTUALLY being on your own (instead of pretending to be ok, business as usual, just getting on with daily stuff even though inside all this is going on) will be quite liberating and perhaps make it seem a little easier for you - here's hoping!

Sending all of you warm fluffy and fertile hugs xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Rah *- I don't understand the timescales with down regging/long protocol, but I hope your next AF plays ball and you can get your TX in before Christmas, if that's what you decide to do. I thought what you said to *Knockers *about going through this alone is very true and beautifully put.

*Knockers *- Any sign of AF? Also, you mentioned you need to get your thyroid checked? I'm sure there's a very low chance of any issues with it (I know I felt off-colour with mine ...) but lets be positive, you could be pregnant in a few weeks! So it's probably worth trying to get it checked now, just in case?

I know you're on a tight timescale now and don't know how your GP surgery works, but with mine, you could technically phone for a same-day appointment, ask GP for a blood bag/form to take to the local hospital, then use the drop in phlebotomy service at the hospital (as opposed to waiting for GP nurse appointment etc....), results back in a couple of days - so you'd have them before you fly out to Prague. Alternatively, I'm sure Gynem could do the thyroid blood tests for you (at least TSH, but ideally Free T4 as well, to double-check). I expect they'll be taking blood every few days anyway (to look at your E2 & LH to monitor your cycle)?


----------



## Knockers71

Hi beside the seaside ( I don't know how to tag?!) I'm not sure of the timescale as I have to wait for af to start- no sign yet! I've found out that I could come home between egg extraction and transfer, so that makes me feel better. I will get a book on Prague too, great idea! I'll go on the Czech pages too once I know when I'm going. 

I actually had a thyroid test today, it was already booked as I'm hypothyroid and needed a check. Hopefully tsh will be under 2!
Rah25 that's so true, it's our bodies that do all the work and it's us who have to go through all the symptoms so I guess we are on our own in a sense! Not having to face people when you're going through emotional angst might be better!! 
Lots of love and luck to everyone, whatever stage they're at! Xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - Oops, I'm sorry for being so dopey and rambling on about blood tests  . I now realise that you'd already said you were hypothyroid, so _of course_, you would totally know the drill and have everything under control! I do feel embarrassed, sorry. 
That's great you're feeling better about your trip. If you come back to UK between egg collection and transfer, will you be able to fly with your DH and son? Hope you find some tips and company on the Czech pages! 
(I've never been to Prague, but we've done a few breaks with those DK eyewitness travel guides - they're usually pretty good - have you seen them? E.g. http://www.dk.com/uk/9781409373391-dk-eyewitness-top-10-travel-guide-prague/)

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## Knockers71

Beside the seaside don't worry! I mentioned it ages ago, you can't remember everything everyone says  
It all depends when my period starts as to whether we can fly together or not. My husband has to get back to work and my son can't miss school. Or too much anyway, I don't want him missing more than a few days.
Still no sign of af, I think I'll be starting next week at this rate! 
I'll have a look at that link, thanks! 
Hope all is good your end xx


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## highlandgirl

Hello ladies 

Just a quick update as we have visitors for the next week so may not be able to post so much 
I hope you are all well whatever stage you are at xxxx
We are going to try naturally this month so should know the outcome soon as on day 10 today x if that doesn't work I am going to start clomiphene on my next cycle as my IVF clinic have agreed to write a private prescription as you cannot get it from a GP  
Will get a day 2 baseline scan and a day 12 scan to check follies and bloods and then the good old timing of DTD and 21 day progesterone bloods to see if I have ovulated all done privately at the local hospital which seems to be the protocol for clomiphene.
Will then will try that for Nov / Dec cycles as we are going on holiday on New Years Day don't know where yet but will be warm can't wait!
I have tracked down the NHS fertility nurse specialist for the highlands who is the only one for the whole of the highlands - ?? And she only puts that hat on every Thursday! so she is calling me next Thursday to see what they can do on a private basis here? THEN if all of that still doesn't work will start the norethisterone down reg pills in January and do another and last round of IVF x
At the same time going back to my weight loss regime to give myself a focus and sort my body out - have put on 10 pounds since my consents appt in August AARRGH!
#dontwanttobeafatmomma


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## Agaamh

gwinethblack said:


> If you are still considering new clinics, you can look for those in Ukraine. They don't have any age limits there for ivf and it is not that expensive. I am currently contacting the clinic there and have already arranged the appointment for the end of this month. Now they gave me the donors list and I am sitting all day long choosing the donors. As I know they will provide you with their own medications though.
> PS I have seen lots and lots of articles about women in their 60 and even 70 getting ivf de treatment in Ukraine and getting their BFP. It's all over the internet.


Hi, I read a lot about clinics in Ukraine a saw some interesting documentaries. It is interesting due to the costs and results that they achieved. But for me, it is also important that a clinic keeps to some international standards. I found, a clinic in warsaw, is certified as my clinic in BE (worldwide around 100 clinics have this certification, most of them in UK) so probably I will go there, they also have expierience with women 40+ from own OE. As still I want to try from my OE. Good luck for you!

I am not aware about age limit and costs or reputation of UK clinics. I have still to research.
Dear ladies, could you tell me which UK clinic offers E-mail or phone consultations. I want to contact some clinics to get information which protocol
they would propose to me.

xx


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## Altai

This thread has got so busy. Wil have to catch up.
I saw website one of the Ukrainian agencies and was really surprised by the cost. They are very active as well and I think have a fair share of international patients. Unfortunately don't know anything about standards, results etc. 

Highland - that's surprising that your GP didn't give you clomid px. Perhaps you should have told that you'd pay privately. I read here that some GP even write px for IVF drugs even  patients are cycling abroad. 

Also re clomid - you know it thins lining? In some cases could cause rise in fsh  level. I did clomid with low dose of injectable it was one of the worst cycles. But everybody is different and I know it works for some. worth trying ...

I read somewhere statistics and says that in average it requires more than 3 IVF cycles to succeed and once you do it 4th cycle you already increase your chances by 70%. But thats probably for younger women. 
I had 10 fresh cycles and got one daughter. 

I won't be doing oe IVF anymore. But will probably do combo cycle with de and oe embryos next year. Am debating on whether to have a second child. I am single, so not sure how would cope with two kids. 

Agaamh - I know that dr Corgy does telephone consultations for immunes but don't know whether he does them for IVF. Probably worth emailing clinics and see if they do tel consultations.
I think Lister could do.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highland* - sounds like a fighting plan! Well done for tracking down your arrangements for scans and the fertility nurse in the Highlands! It will surely be MUCH easier than having to travel for hours to the IVF clinic so often.

I was thinking about what *Altai *said about Clomid. I must admit, I'd heard the same thing - i.e. that it can thin your lining in the cycle in which you use it. So it's perhaps not often recommended for TX naturally if over 40. It's the reason, I think, why Serum do 'clomid embryo banking' if they use Clomid as the stimulant in an IVF cycle - i.e. they freeze the resultant embryos/blastocysts and transfer them back in another cycle when the uterine lining is optimal.

Having said that, your clinic will have had a good look at how your lining 'performs' when you did your IVF cycle and they may well think it's fine - presumably they do, or else they wouldn't have prescribed it! If you are concerned, perhaps you could get in touch with your consultant/clinic and say you'd heard Clomid might thin uterine lining if TX naturally, do they think it will be an issue? If it might be, what would they think about prescribing Letrozole (brand name Femara) as an alternative? I understand that Letrozole does the same thing as Clomid, but is thought to have fewer side effects on lining.

*Altai *- I was sorry to hear that your Clomid + injectable cycle hadn't gone so well. I notice from your signature that you'd been to Serum IVF clinic. Did you do the Clomid cycle there - or in Moscow? Would you mind letting me know what days/dose of Clomid and what days/dose of injectable? I'd started to think of Clomid as this great panacea, but perhaps not 

Interesting you are considering DE/OE combo cycle. Would that be similar to the tandem cycle that *Lily *did at Team Miracle in Cyprus?

*Lily *- if you're still reading - just wondering how you're getting on? x

*Agaamh* - I'm not familiar with the BE certification you're talking about - what is that? More to the point, how can I check up which clinics have it?!

As regards UK clinics. Please someone correct me if I'm saying anything out of line ... 
I think the age limit for IVF in the UK is technically 50. However, many clinics choose to impose a cut off of age 45 (as in not after 45th birthday). Several highly reputable clinics in my region say that their cut off is 45, but actually, they won't even see you if aged over 43. Generally I'd stick to London clinics as being more likely to be sympathetic if slightly older. That's not to say regional clinics wouldn't treat you (I think *Highlandgirl *went to CRGM in Glasgow) but they're harder to find and you might have to wade through a few 'no's' first.

So for example, the Lister Hospital, Create IVF - St Paul's, London Women's Clinic would treat you at aged 45 or older. Of those, I'd recommend the Lister as I know they treat plenty of international patients (and are used to modifying protocols to suit) and their admin is a bit more slick and generally better set up for dealing with overseas patients.

To be fair, if I could blow the budget and go anywhere, I'd probably go to CHR (Center for Human Reproduction) in New York. They treat 'older' women. They have a section on their website for international patients and they will skype an initial consultation for you. Dr Gleicher and Dr Barad are world renowned: https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/services/int/

I was reading back through the early part of this thread and wondered if *ESJ, kittykatkins, hopeful_one* are still reading? How are you all? *ESJ *and *hopeful_one* - are you cycling at Create at the moment?

Good luck to everyone x

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## Altai

Beside the sea- I had 1 clomid/tamixofen pill plus 100- 150 of fostimon. Though the  usual dose  of injectables in these type of IVF is 75-100iu. I went for higher dose as wanted to get as many eggs as could. I am not a believer of theory that less/no drugs would  make your abnormal eggs normal or give you better quality eggs. It is determined by age. If I got more eggs on 300iu dose, I'd have gone for it. I suppose it was luck that low doses gave me the same/more  number of eggs. My embryo banking was done in Moscow as was much cheaper then.  So I could afford more cycles. One of which got me a gourgeus baby girl. 
I must admit  banking part didn't go well at all. I was advised to do fresh transfers and freeze remaining embryos if any left by d5. But Serum does very well in getting you blasts. I probably won't be the only one who said  that they didn't get  any blasts somewhere. Serum was the first time they ever reach blasto stage. 

Yes, it's similar to tandem. The main difference is that in combo  one cycle, for example your donors, us frozen. Next month  you do your IVF and transfer donors frozen embryos (from cycle before) and your fresh.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks *Altai *- many congratulations on your baby girl from your Moscow embryo banking! What protocol did you do at Serum, were you doing Clomid at Serum too?


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## Hopeful_one

Hello, just wanted to update you (especially *Seaside* since you asked) briefly as I have a very busy week ahead and probably won't have time to write, only read.

It's great that a few more lurkers have joined the conversation 

Yes AF finally arrived and I have started cycle 2 at Create. First scan only 2 follicles on Right, but this is CD4 so I'm hoping that things will improve as the days go by. However we are also thinking about out next steps and will be attending the Fertility Show in London in a few weeks time to consider our options.

Sending you all lots of  and  in all your endeavours to achieve the perfect little miracle you wish for.
xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Good to hear from you Hopeful_one.  Fingers crossed for your cycle #2 at Create.  Here's hoping those follies behave themselves and your 'next step' is freezing a couple of top grade embryos and looking forward to your FET!


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## esj

Hi there. Yes I am still reading intermittently. My first cycle went OK and have a Grade 1 embryo banked. Second not so good, we had to cancel as not looking optimal and some minor follicle damage from previous collection. Feeling slightly demoralised and frustrated but trying to keep positive and hopeful for the further cycles. Have asked about trying Clomid for one of the upcoming cycles. Decided against DHEA as wasnt convinced enough evidence to support improved results. 
Good luck everyone x


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## Lily0750

Hi ladies,

Re. age limit I understand the clinics do not impose 45 years. Most clinics say they haven't had a success with OE for over 43.
I admire your perseverance, ladies.

My HCG blood test result came negative today. It looks like I can't get pregnant even with 21 year old DE.
Apart from high NK cells for which I was taking prednisone, I am not aware of any other issues.
So really puzzled if I need to do any further tests or just try again with frozen embryos.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - Wow - well done on your first cycle at Create! Brilliant news on the grade 1 embryo - can't ask for more than that at this stage. I'm sure you'll be absolutely fine. I wish I was still 44, I can tell you! Sorry to hear that you felt your 2nd cycle was not 'optimal'. But it sounds as though you cancelled quite early on? The lead consultant at St Paul's told me it's quite common (1 in 5 or something, can't remember) NOT to be able to do all of the natural modified cycles back to back, due to cysts etc from the previous cycle. You've good reason to be hopeful for the further cycles - please let us know when you start again?

*Lily* - I'm really very sorry to hear that your blood test was negative. A BFN is very hard - you must be so disappointed. I hope that having good quality, PGD-tested embryos in the freezer will soften the blow a little bit?

Like you say, it is puzzling, given that your egg donor is so young AND you had had the embryos PGD-tested to say they were chromosomally normal.

Aren't there some theories that sometimes FET's work better than fresh cycles? Isn't it because they can focus on optimising the uterine environment, whereas when you've had stimulation drugs (as in OE/DE tandem cycle) there can be inflammation which is unhelpful to implantation - bit sketchy on the reasons why I'm afraid?

It's so difficult to know how far to go with further tests isn't it. Purely from my own experience, I spent a lot of money on miscarriage testing which got me nowhere really. However, I did learn that some VERY expensive blood tests for Natural Killer cells drew little more than a raised eyebrow from two very senior IVF consultants (at the Lister Hospital and Create St Paul's). Neither seemed terribly convinced by the reliability/relevance of serum blood tests for NK cells. Both, on the other hand, seemed to set more store by the test for _uterine _NK cells done by endometrial biopsy at the Coventry Implantation Clinic.

If you haven't done it already, perhaps it might be worth doing the Coventry test? It's 'only' £360 (as it's subsidised by the university research programme), which even accounting for some travel costs, is relatively cheap in the fertility world. It covers the test, a detailed consultation with either Professor Brosens or Professor Quenby, plus a telephone discussion of their findings, with written report. Depending on those findings, they'll write a protocol/prescription for you. I know you say you were taking Prednisolone, but MAYBE it is worth finding out whether you were on the best dosage, at the best times and whether anything else could be recommended in addition (or instead). Link is:
https://www.mededcoventry.com/Research_and_Development/Facilities/Implantation%20Clinic%20leaflet.pdf

Have you tried a test for 'hidden infections' such as the ones that are offered by Serum IVF clinic - ? This is from some info I found on those tests:
_"...evidence that infection-induced inflammation can cause damage to sperm, as well as a uterine lining that is not hospitable for an embryo, leading to failed implantation or early miscarriage. Antibiotic treatment can improve the uterine environment for implantation; as well as significantly improve sperm quality in men with poor sperm parameters (even where we have not been able to identify a specific infection), leading to higher pregnancy rates...."_
http://www.ivfserum.com/faq/#how-can-i-do-the-infection-tests-on-menstrual-blood

I guess you've also covered off the basics like thyroid function tests etc? Hope you're feeling better soon.

Good luck to everyone else!

I'm waiting on phone calls and appointments and going a bit nuts. It does occur to me though, that it would be far worse if this all had to stop, with nothing left to try and no hope left.  But I'm still going, for the time being at least ...

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## Syd72

HI ladies, just trying to catch up.  Was in Miami for work last week and Singapore for work this week, my body doesn't know whether it's coming or going!

We're trying naturally this month, I arrived home to HK for one night in between Miami and Singapore and it happened to be the day before ovulation so I at least feel I'm in with a chance, however slim, for the first time since my miscarriage in August.  I'm waiting to hear back from both Oxford (who want to do long protocol) and Lister (who want to do short) re timings as I get back to the UK at the end of November which I think is too close to Christmas to start treatment.  I'm not sure when they all start up again after Christmas.

Really sorry to those that have had bad news this week and good luck to those waiting!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Syd *- you must have an exciting job! Maybe I can help you a little with the Lister Christmas closure as I was in a similar position at the end of 2015. Lister closed on Wednesday 23 December 2015 and re-opened on Monday 4 January 2016 - maybe they will do something similar this year? Oh and FX for a natural BFP this month from your international stopover!


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## Syd72

Thanks Seaside, that's good to know.  I guess since I have no idea how long I would stim for they would want to start a good amount of time before the closure date in order not to risk not being ready for ec until Christmas Week?  Sorry, I feel like I'm always asking such stupid questions it just all feels so complicated as I haven't been through it yet.

I work in events, it generally sounds more exciting than it is


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - well, I have to say, the Lister's communication is excellent. Your consultant's PA would you basic 2016 dates if you wanted to ask by email.

I'm struggling to remember, but I think their last egg collection was about a week before closure, maybe a couple of days more? Say it was something like Monday 14th Dec 2015. On short protocol you'd need to have your AF starting, on average 13-14 days before that. I can't imagine you'd need more than 16 days. So depending how close to the end of November you are in UK - and when your AF starts - you could fit in before Christmas. Same with your long protocol though, as if your AF arrived a bit earlier still, I think you can start down regging medication whilst you're still overseas can't you?

Anyway - you won't need any of this if you're already pregnant from your flying visit to HK will you!


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## Syd72

Wouldn't that be nice 

Thanks for that, I emailed the Lister 10 days or so ago but haven't heard back so have just chased.

Yep, those timings won't work as af due 7 Nov and 6 Dec.  Re long protocol yes, I can definitely start down regging before I get back to the UK.  That would be with Oxford, my consultant is back in this week so I should get a better idea from them then.


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## MissBabs

Hello 

Just stopping by to introduce myself - I'm shortly to turn 44, hubby is 52 and were jumping on the crazy ttc roller coaster again after a few years break. We've had 3 unsuccessful de tx's at Serum previously and don't have the funds to try IVF at this point so we're going to try home insem with ds from Cryos & are hoping to do our first (practise) attempt next month  We've never tried with my own eggs before so are giving it a shot, nothing to lose eh?

I hope you are all doing well and look forward to sharing lots of highs and not too many lows with you all xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *MissBabs* - wishing you good luck for your home insemination round! I'm sorry, I've got to know, does Cryos send you any equipment/instructions for how best to do the insemination, as well as the donor sperm?

In my increasingly ridiculous attempts to TTC naturally, we've even tried (sorry if TMI) a sterile cup and syringe. And also this: 
- https://www.thestorkconception.co.uk/ and 
- https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Stork-Home-Conception-Kit/dp/B00IEGVEFM 
... all in our efforts to DTD at precisely the right time, regardless of our total lack of enthusiasm. Because DTD with an agenda soon became zero fun, I found.

Anyway, it wasn't until our first IVF (me aged 46.5 years) that we discovered it had all been entirely pointless as DP has a massively high level of anti-sperm antibodies. It would NEVER have worked naturally, regardless of my age. (And this after conceiving my daughter on our first try aged 43.3 years, go figure ...)

I'm sorry to read that your DE TX's were unsuccessful. Did you ever find out what the reason might have been?

I'm also interested to know why you went straight to DE's with your TX - do you mind saying why? Only because you seem quite young to have gone straight for DE

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## Gemini40

Hi bedside the sea, I'm laughing because I have also tried the stork. Interested in the antisperm bodies, what test does that show up on?


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## highlandgirl

Hello ladies 

And hello to those new to the thread thank for coming to join us! 
Quick question - I had a very long wait for AF after treatment - 31 days when my cycle is usually 26-29 and I am now on day 14 but no signs of OV when I would have OV by now - showing low on my CB OPK not even high and also not any CM signs either - doesn't help when you are trying to DTD naturally?
Thoughts anyone?
X


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - What are you doing this cycle? Is it fully natural or Clomid + natural?

I wouldn't have thought it was unusual to have a long wait for AF in a cycle in which you've had IVF + BFN. I wonder what other people's experiences are?

As regards still waiting for ovulation now, I'm just guessing of course, but I wondered if maybe you might perhaps have a little ovarian cyst following from your IVF treatment? Nothing to worry about, they apparently disperse on their own sooner or later. Consultant at Create said they happen in maybe 1:5 natural modified cycles but are so common in cycles with more (but still 'mild') stimulation that he never brings anyone in to start a new stimulated cycle back to back. When I've had them I find they mess your cycle timing up mainly. Your private scan lady would be able to tell you in 5 seconds whether this was the case. I guess its a question of whether you'd want to shell out for a scan 'just' to find that out?

Another thing I thought of is - whilst I've never used the Clearblue Monitor - I've probably used around a billion packs of Clearblue digital OPKs (you know, the smiley face ones). I found that when I got near the day I'd expect to ovulate, I needed to test twice a day. If I'd only tested in the morning I'd have missed the LH surge usually. But as you are also tracking other signs (like CM) probably you just need to wait a bit longer?

*Gemini40* - the test for *antisperm antibodies* is a semen analysis (it's not a blood test, for example). They need to run a *Mixed Antiglobulin Reaction (MAR)* test on the sample.

DP had had TWO separate semen analyses done at our local NHS hospital andrology dept/fertility clinic. He self-referred and paid as a private patient. The test results looked fine. It wasn't until we FINALLY (years later than we should have done) went for our first IVF treatment (Jan/Feb 2016) that the issue of antibodies even came onto our radar. Embryologist came to see my whilst I was recovering from egg collection anaesthetic, to say we hadn't signed any consents for ICSI. Told us we needed ICSI due to positive MAR test (v high percentage apparently) as even with ordinary IVF "the sperm and the egg just won't tango".

What I found upsetting was that both the original semen analysis results were on a proforma template that looked as though they'd tested for antibodies and all was OK (the way the reference range was printed in relation to the results box was misleading). After the ICSI I phoned the local hospital who confirmed no they hadn't tested for antibodies, they'd stopped running the MAR test when NHS fertility services at that particular clinic had been restricted to IUI. There was some evidence that the way they wash/prepare the sperm sample can negate the effect of antibodies, but patients for whom IUI didn't work would 'probably go to IVF anyway'. But said thank you for bringing it to our attention, we should probably amend the template as agree it isn't very clear. Aaaaaaaaaaaargh!

Sorry for the ranty rant, but obviously we wouldn't have tried naturally at all (never mind for so long) if we'd known this earlier!

I think I read somewhere that antibodies are thought to affect 10 - 15% of male patients. Apparently they very often occur after vascectomy reversal or sporting injury. DP's never had a vasectomy and while he's played cricket & football (less so these days ...) doesn't remember anything significant. But who knows how 'serious' a knock you'd have to take to cause it.

I've also heard of a *test for sperm defragmentation* - anyone know about that?

Clearly we've overlooked issues with DP's sperm and on the slim chance that a clinic can lucky dip the one egg in 50 / 100 / 10,000 or whatever that is likely to be normal at my age, we can ill afford to be injecting it with an abnormal sperm!


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## Agaamh

Beside_the_seaside said:


> *Agaamh* - I'm not familiar with the BE certification you're talking about - what is that? More to the point, how can I check up which clinics have it?!
> 
> As regards UK clinics. Please someone correct me if I'm saying anything out of line ...
> I think the age limit for IVF in the UK is technically 50. However, many clinics choose to impose a cut off of age 45 (as in not after 45th birthday). Several highly reputable clinics in my region say that their cut off is 45, but actually, they won't even see you if aged over 43. Generally I'd stick to London clinics as being more likely to be sympathetic if slightly older. That's not to say regional clinics wouldn't treat you (I think *Highlandgirl *went to CRGM in Glasgow) but they're harder to find and you might have to wade through a few 'no's' first.
> 
> So for example, the Lister Hospital, Create IVF - St Paul's, London Women's Clinic would treat you at aged 45 or older. Of those, I'd recommend the Lister as I know they treat plenty of international patients (and are used to modifying protocols to suit) and their admin is a bit more slick and generally better set up for dealing with overseas patients.
> 
> To be fair, if I could blow the budget and go anywhere, I'd probably go to CHR (Center for Human Reproduction) in New York. They treat 'older' women. They have a section on their website for international patients and they will skype an initial consultation for you. Dr Gleicher and Dr Barad are world renowned: https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/services/int/


Hello Ladies

here the link to the page on the RI witness system

http://riwitness.com/find-a-clinic/

probably it is not that crucial factor for the clinics in U.S, Canda or in the west europe as in those countires there is a legal framework in place.
It is also interesting, to know if embryologists are the members of the ESHRE.

Clinic in NY although much promising, is unfortunately beyond my financial and logistical possibilities. i would like to know more about the products that they use for the women above 40. The phone consultation costs 450$.

During my last treatment I was put on the clomid (1 pill per day as from 2nd until 6th) and as from 3 rd on the low dosis of menopur (75j).
The result was two embryos of a very good Quality. Unfortunately BNF.

Slowely I am giving up the hope that i will be a mother from my OE 

PS. BTW I got a message from one of a dK clinic that with my hormon levels (AMH 0,4 ng/ml and FSH 7,7 n/l, and AFC 7) they will not manage to get me pregnant from my OE. And they recommended a clinic in Spain. I am very dissapointed  
Do you know anybody who got pregnant with OE after 45? I only know girls between 40 and 43 who got pregnant and have a healthy baby.One collegue was 45 as she delievered. But here I am not sure if she got with her OE as she had several IVF attempts without result.

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## highlandgirl

Thanks beside! The CB Digital is the same but goes from low to high to peak - smiley face for 2 days but I am still on low which is unusual for me on day 14 as I would have thought I would have been at least at high by now  
Natural only for this month and still considering clomiphene for next month but acupunture man says clomiphene is a scattergun approach and has suggested I take women's precious Chinese herb first! Will see if I OV first and then take it from there  
Any other thoughts ladies?


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## Sonneblume

Highland, just reading and I thought I'd make a comment. As we get older our cycle can vary in length ( great). As your cycle was longer last time. It may be this time again, so you may OV on day 15/16/17instead. If you take 14 from 31 as you OV always 14 days before you have your period. Good luck x


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## MissBabs

Hi beside the sea


Next month will be our first time so I'm going on what I've read but yes I think Cryos send a home insem "kit" including syringe and an instruction booklet along with the swimmers!   


We went straight for de as we always knew we'd need ds due to mf and I think Penny at Serum thought we'd have a much higher chance with de as well. We had 3 tx's and I think if we'd carried on for more penny was going to suggest I have some immunes tests. Not sure whether anything would have come of that or not. We just don't have the money for IVF this time around so we're trying my eggs since we've never tried them before and obvs home insem with ds is significantly cheaper! xx


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## Sonneblume

Hi folks, the Stork is rather expensive and I've heard, there were some technical issues around re use. This may now be sorted since it first came out. A cheaper approach to insemination is to try the Softcup, which was sold in Boots not any longer. The moon-cup both are used for menstruation instead of tampons. Both are really passion killers, but both keep the sperm near the cervix, although I felt the moon-cup was a little too deep. I hope this help with TTC, sadly it didn't for me, but it has for other ladies on here.


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## highlandgirl

Thanks sonneblume and welcome to our thread x


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## what next (if anything)?

Hello Highland Girl

Think its the prostap injection you took thats causing the delay.  Same thing happened to me after failed short protocol at gcrm recently.  Things take a while to reboot
After it.


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## Knockers71

Hi girls we're going to gynem in Prague next week now as my period started later than expected and I starred injections yesteday. It's all happening now!


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## highlandgirl

Hi what next - thanks for the info and for joining us ladies  

I called yesterday as was getting worried and that's what they told me - prostap injection has caused this   did the same happen to you I take it? Do you end up OV at all? and does your next AF come later as well as I am usually 25-28 days but was day 31 after tx?
I am on day 16 and nothing no CM or any signs of anything on the CB OPK so that's me missed a chance this month but going to try clomiphene next cycle getting a baseline scan locally day 2 start pills day 3 and then follow up scan day 12 and then timed DTD and a lot of praying   

Can I ask if that was your first tx at GCRM and if you don't mind sharing your story as all the fabulous info from all the ladies who are on here has helped each other I'm sure xx

Good luck knockers xxx


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## what next (if anything)?

Hi Highland Girl/everyone else

From end of failed cycle, it took about 45 days for the prostop to work out of my system so a 45 day cycle as opposed to 27 or so.

That was my 6th fresh cycle although my 5th gave me a wonderful child. Hope you are all as lucky.  I am 43 now so docs not giving me much hope for another.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Lots going on! Have a bit of time this afternoon, so will try to reply to everyone:

*Highland* - Hope you're feeling better after good advice re Prostap? Are you still using CB monitor / tracking signs of ov? I would've thought you will still ov this cycle, even if a bit later than usual? Interested to read you're planning on Clomid next cycle starting day 2. Can I ask what dose / which days you're taking it for?

*Whatnext* - As you did your TX at GRCM - are you a 'highlander' too? Sorry to hear about your BFN. I guess one way of looking at it is that it took 4 unsuccessful cycles before you succeeded last time, so the fact that it's BFN this time shouldn't mean that you won't succeed again. Although hopefully you won't have to go through another 4 to get a BFP! Please don't worry about being 43, or I shall have to stick my head in a gas oven. I conceived my DD naturally aged 43, BTW.

*Sonneblume* - you're so right about the  *Stork OTC* being expensive - daylight robbery for a SINGLE USE product! I guess they have to recoup R&D costs, but still! I'm sure they'd do better selling more units at a lower price point. I thought it was a great product though, as the risk of spillage/wastage is about nil and it keeps swimmers so close to your cervix, like you say.

Interesting you mentioned *Softcup *and *Mooncup*. I remember reading about a lady on another forum who'd become so sick of the stress of timed DTD (know the feeling...) that she took to asking her DH to ejaculate into a Mooncup. Mixed a bit of 'Conceive Plus' lubricant in there and got BFP after 1 or 2 months of that method. At 45 1/2 years old. Then delivered a beautiful, healthy, full-term little boy! Amazing given that technically she hadn't even had sex!

Do you think a cervical cap - the type used for contraception - would work in a similar way? At least provided it wasn't already impregnated with some type of spermicide! Maybe there are some 'natural' or eco friendly type caps? Any thoughts?

*Knockers71* - Best of luck for your Prague trip  What injections have you started? How are you feeling so far?

*MissBabs* - thanks for sharing Penny's thoughts on the DE/DS cycles at Serum. I guess DE will nearly always give you a statistically much higher chance of success, but on the other hand, that's not the same thing as saying that your own eggs need writing off just yet!

Did you get as far as finding out how much immune tests would cost at Serum? I hesitate to say it, but I did wonder whether as 3 x DE cycles were unsuccessful, it could be due to something 'fixable' in the uterine environment? FX you won't have to, but if the home insem cycle doesn't work, will you be considering any tests as your next step?

A couple of ideas might be:
- Did you have the Serum hidden infection tests? If not, they're 300EUR and you can do them from the UK. 
- Uterine Natural Killer Cells: I think the best and cheapest way to test for uNKC is the biopsy and consultation at Coventry Implantation Clinic (£360). They write you a private prescription if there's an issue: https://www.mededcoventry.com/Research_and_Development/Facilities/Implantation%20Clinic%20leaflet.pdf
- Have you done thyroid function blood tests? If not, you could ask your GP for TSH (should be under 2, or 2.5 max) and ideally ought to test Free T4 as well. You can also ask for a test for Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies (TPO).

But musn't get ahead of ourselves! Best wishes for a BFP from your Cryos delivery! I remember reading an article about "Viking sperm" from Denmark. Sending you positive thoughts for     wearing little Viking helmets with cow horns on! Strong swimmers with fighting spirit at any rate!

*Agaamh* - I'm sorry you're feeling down. I'm sure many of us can identify with those feelings of despair and despondency - it's very hard.

But look, you're still 'only' 45! There are several women on this thread older than you - myself being the prime example. All at least TRYING to conceive with OE (or OE as part of a OE/DE tandem/combo IVF cycle). But obviously it has to be your choice to weigh up.

Your test results are pretty good: AMH 0.4 ng/ml (2.9 p/mol), FSH 7.7 n/l, and AFC 7. I've been told that FSH <8 and AMH ≥3 p/mol is ideal. I wouldn't be too deterred by the message you received from just ONE clinic. All clinics have different theories about what their cut offs should be, and how protective they are of their success rate statistics (as opposed to individual patient's interests/autonomy). I'd try a different clinic. If you can get to London, then Lister or Create would be a good starting point. Also, the Euroound exchange rate will go in your favour now and make TX in UK cheaper for you than it would've been, say 6 months ago.

You asked whether we knew anybody who got pregnant with OE after 45?

Personally, only three, all naturally. Two of them were my mum's friends who had 'accidents' in the 1970's (i.e. pre-IVF) aged 45 and 46 at conception. One of the babies was, as a newborn, about 15 years younger than his sister and nieces, but hey ho.

But I should also say that personally, I don't know ANYONE else who is even TRYING aged 45+! All my friends and colleagues around this age would be HORRIFIED to find they were pregnant. I even know someone who had a termination (for what would be termed 'social reasons') aged 45+.

Of course, if you're minded to scour the internet for long enough, you'll find plenty of examples of 45+ conceptions.

Somewhere up-thread I posted a link to the UK Office for National Statistics (ONS), to their dataset: Live births in England and Wales by characteristics of mother:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/datasets/characteristicsofmother1englandandwalesreferencetables
"Table 2: Live births by age of mother and registration type, 1938-2013" includes the number of births p.a. to women aged 45 and over. So for example, between 1938 and 1948 there was an average of >2,000 births per year to women aged 45+. OK, some will have conceived aged 44 and delivered aged 45 and a couple of months, but I bet not all of them. And obviously they're all *pre-IVF* and pre-egg donation.

And I do love stories about 47+ year olds!
- http://fertilegrounds.dominionfertility.com/profiles/blogs/successful-47-year-old-patient-delivers-her-own-biological-baby
- Read about Sarah Briggs _"... aged 48, she decided to come off the Pill because she wanted to be able to recognise the signs of the menopause. When she missed a period, she assumed it was the start of 'the change'. It turned out she was pregnant with Edward"_: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2377056/A-controversial-new-book-claims-getting-pregnant-35-far-easier-doctors-say.html

Sorry if I've missed anyone's news. Good luck to everyone!

Seaside x

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## Beside_the_seaside

I have a little bit of news re my TX #2 at Create.  After being devastated that my baseline scan had only shown a paltry 3 antral follicles, we decided to go ahead anyway and I had egg collection on Monday 24 October.  

Only 2 follicles responded to TX but ...
2 eggs retrieved
2 fertilised by ICSI  
2 embryos frozen on day 3: 1 x 8 cell grade 1 (top grade), 1 x 7 cell grade 1

I know I'm still a million miles away from being pregnant, but given where I started this cycle, I'm forcing myself to be fairly pleased with how it went.


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## what next (if anything)?

Hello Seaside

It's great you had a natural conception at 43.  Just seen your update too about your recent Tx.  Well done.  You should be pleased!

I am 7 years plus ttc now. All of my ivf/icsi cycles have been long or short protocol. I don't get many eggs.  I may still have a few good ones but finding one is not so easy.  It's a lot to go through physically, emotionally and financially as we all know.

I am based in Scotland but not in the Highlands.


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## Knockers71

Thanks for the good luck beside and highland girl. I'm doing 350 Gonal f for 10-14 days and synarel nasal spray.  Today is my third day and so far I feel fine. When do the side effects start? What can I expect?!
Nicola x


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## MissBabs

Hi all, hope you're all having a good evening (or morning depending where you are   ) 


Beside the seaside: yes I had the hidden C test before all of the tx's, which was clear. I also had a hysteroscopy in Athens (and watched the dvd with Penny afterwards   ) and they said everything was in order, apparently I had the uterus of a 25yr old - that was a few hrs ago now tho haha! I don't really know what our next steps will be if our Cryos Vikings don't do the job, I suspect it'll be the end of the line but we'll wait and see I guess.


Your frozen embies sound promising, what's the next step for you? Xx


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## Gemini40

side the sea, wow great job. I know you have likely already put your natural remedies early on this thread, but could you let me know again what u are doing. Are you using dhea?


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## Syd72

Seaside that's great, everything crossed for you.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks *Gemini *& *Syd*. These are tiny little straws that I'm clutching at, but I'm still relieved that cycle #2 had a better outcome than cycle #1. They froze one day 3 embryo from #1, but as it was 6 cells, grade 2 (their minimum criteria) I'm holding out zero hope for it.

*Gemini * - you asked about supplements. I found where I posted the one's I try to take; on 23 Sept at 07.49: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=347735.msg6373204#msg6373204

Yes I do take DHEA, supposedly at 3 x 25mg daily, but to be honest, I need to get a grip on taking supplements more regularly. I'm terribly inconsistent, I seem to forget to take them almost as often as I remember.

I wonder if *Flyby *is still reading? *Flyby *said that Penny at Serum definitely does NOT like DHEA, she thinks it's actually detrimental to egg quality. Also that it causes cysts - which is interesting as I've had a few episodes of cysts which would tie in with when I've been taking DHEA for a while. (I've taken it on and off, with a few breaks, since late 2014!)

I also recall that *Flyby *was taking 800mg Ubiquinol daily. I wanted to ask *Flyby *whether this dose was a recommendation from Serum? Substantially more than the 300mg I'm using.

What I'd really like to do is accupuncture. It's just finding a way to afford c. £50 per treatment amongst all the other TTC costs! *Syd *- I think you said you were doing accupuncture and your already fantastic AMH had improved! Are you still keeping on with the treatments?


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## Syd72

I was doing acupuncture and reflexology, problem being both therapists are in the uk and I'm now based in Hong Kong, I have't found anyone I'm comfortable with out here. I do still have treatments when I go home though.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Sorry, I also meant to say ...

*Knockers71* - Side effects from Gonal F? The most Gonal F I've ever taken was 225 iui, so not quite as much as your 300 iui (I suspect they think you've got more follies to go at). Like you, I generally felt pretty good on it, then after a fair few days, I started to feel REALLY tired. I also developed a bit of a stubborn headache on one of three cycles. Trigger shot (Ovitrelle) has nearly always given me a banging headache. Overall, nothing to really grumble about and/or that isn't forgotten soon after EC. All in a good cause! Very best of luck x

*MissBabs* - I'm hoping to do at least 1 more 'natural modified' cycle to freeze any embryo(s) at Create. Then I'll need to re-assess whether I can afford to try to collect any more (again at Create, or possibly even at Serum) or go for a FET with what I've got.

Did you do the tests for ureaplasma at Serum as well? Isn't that the one they think can mess up sperm pretty badly? Fingers crossed for your Cryos cycle, but just in case it doesn't work, I'd have thought it's definitely worth considering some immunes tests next?


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## Flyby

Yes, BTS, I do still read! 

You're right that Penny doesn't like DHEA, the reason I remember was that it causes cysts, then when I read more about it, I think it was a piece written by the American Dr. Sher on website haveababy.com, he thought it could be detrimental in some cases; I seem to remember reading some quite interesting articles on there. 

The ubiquinol dose was through a lot of Canadian and American reasearch that I did coming out of the study done by Yaakov Bentov and Robert Casper. I remember reading that some patients are given even higher doses than this, but I think the average was 600-800mg.


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## Knockers71

Hello to everyone and good luck with your embies beside, sounds like a great result! 
I'm on day 6 now of the cycle, day 5 of stims and last night developed a migraine. This could be coincidence though as I do get them sometimes. No bloating yet, and I have my first scan tomorrow. Hopefully I'll find out that it will be a 10 day stimulation not a 14!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers71* - Just wanted to wish you great luck for your scan today! Are you still in the UK at the moment? If so, what happens next: do they email your results/images to Gynem? When are you flying? Fingers crossed for plenty of follicles!

Sorry about the migraine. I'm guessing (I'd love to know the proper answer if anyone knows) it might be due to big hormone increases, as you'll have loads more E2/Oestradial than usual from lots of growing follicles? (I could never take a combined contraceptive pill due to the oestrogen giving me headaches...) Anyway, hope you'll feel better soon.


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## Knockers71

Hi beside, thanks. I'm still in the U.K. now, we fly on Wednesday. I had to give in a request for absence form for my sons school as he's missing three days. Started crying in front of the school secretary!! 
Gynem have asked me to email the results to them. 
My headache is ok today, and I'm not too bloated yet and I'm halfway through so hopefully I'll escape the worst symptoms!! X

Ok so my endometrium is 5.9 on day 7 and I have 3 large follicles on both sides and lots of small ones. I don't if this is good or not?!


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## kittykatkins

Hello everyone! Apologies for being awol. Been trying to lead a normal life between cycles - not sure how successful that can be with excessive supliments, no alcohol, caffeine or chocolate, but anyway I'm on the train home from having my scratch... Yuck, How uncomfortable was that! And been catching up with everyone's stories.

*Knockers* that sounds pretty good to me. Where did you go for your scan?

*BesideTheSea* I think 2 grade 1 embryos is an excellent result. Why did you opt to freeze rather than transfer?

*HighlandGirl* after my 1st IVF/bfn af arrived 2 days after stopping progesterone, after the 2nd attempt it took a week. But my next cycle in both cases was super short. So with me it seems to go the other way!


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## Knockers71

Hi kittykatkins I went to a private GP clinic in Richmond down the road from me, they were a good find as you can get last minute scans there. They are used to communicating with IVF clinics. I guess at 45 6 large follicles is ok right? 
Well done for keeping off the chocolate booze and coffee! I'm not drinking booze but having one coffee a day, and chocolate now and then.... trying to keep off gluten and high carb foods. But I kind of feel like at this stage it will either work or it won't, whatever I do x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers71* - well done on your scan! It sounds like an excellent result, whether for aged 45 or a few years younger. If you have 6 large follicles on day 6, plus lots more smaller ones, you might expect at least a couple of the others to catch up by the time you trigger. 6+ eggs would be marvellous, right?

I hope you manage to combine your TX in Prague with a bit of sightseeing to relax. Keeping my fingers firmly crossed for you. This thread needs a BFP!

*Kittykatkins* - To try to answer your question why I opted to freeze rather than transfer:

I'm trying a multi-cycle package of 'natural modified' IVF at Create. The protocol only aims to collect one or two eggs per cycle. I would've preferred a more conventional stimulation protocol (like *Knockers71* starting on day 2) but I no longer have the follicle numbers for that. When I started this TX in August, I found my baseline antral follicle count had collapsed compared to less than a year ago. It's a question of cracking on with what I've got.

I did my first IVF (at the Lister) in January 2016, with a fresh transfer of 2 x day 3, 8 cell, grade 1 (top grade) embryos. I got pregnant, but it was a terribly sad experience (way too distressing to describe here) which was drawn out by having undiagnosed retained placental tissue for 2 months, finally resolved by hysteroscopy. It was August 2016 before I had a normal period again. Basically I learned the hard way that there are far worse things than a BFN.

I won't risk another transfer until I've got a few embryos in the bank. Like I said, I would've preferred to get the numbers/do the selection the way that *Knockers *is doing - i.e. go for a conventional cycle that aims for higher numbers of eggs collected and fertilised, then see which make blastocyst. But ovaries won't play ball with that, unfortunately, so trying to make the best of what little I've got. 

Hope the scratch works it's magic for you! How do the timings work? Are you starting more TX on your next AF? Trying to remember - was it Reprofit in Czech Republic you'll be going to?

*Highlandgirl* - Just wondering how you're doing? Any sign of ov yet?

*Hopeful_one* - Thinking of you and hope your cycle #2 at Create is going (or has gone) well?


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## Knockers71

Hi well my clinic don't seem very happy with my 6 follicles and have said ' unfortunately you haven't developed many follicles' I thought 6 was ok!! Well I'm off tomorrow and they'll do another scan so hopefully they'll be more positive then!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers71* - Really? Well, at least me and *Kittykatkins *- for what it's worth - think 6 follicles is mega! I could only dream of 6 these days (sigh). Was the clinic sent any images from the scan? Maybe they'll be more excited when they actually see you've got "lots of smaller ones" too, and some of those might catch up? 
Hope the TX goes really well for you  and you manage to enjoy the trip as a little holiday with your DH and son too.

How's everyone else doing?


----------



## kittykatkins

Ah I see, *BesideTheSea*, well it sounds like you've got 2 good ones in the bank. Have you decided when to go ahead with another cycle? I stop taking the norethisterone at the weekend, then start meds 5 days later. Let's hope it all goes to plan, as fits and accommodation are already booked 

Safe flight *Knockers*, fingers xed for egg collection,  keep us updated


----------



## Knockers71

Hi beside, they were sent photocopied images I think which probably weren't too clear, hopefully tomorrow they'll be able to see better like you say. I'm having egg pick up on Friday or Saturday so it will be a 11 or 12 day stimulation, I should be coming home on weds or thurs, I'll be in Prague for 4-5 days on my own. 
Thanks kittykatkins! X


----------



## Syd72

Hi everyone, just trying to catch up.

Good luck for ec Knockers.  Prague is such a beautiful city, I hope you manage to enjoy it a bit.

I'm in the tww (trying naturally) at the moment, it feels so pointless.  This is my first cycle trying since my miscarriage in early September, I'm not normally one for symptom spotting or testing but I'm comparing every little twinge to how I felt in the tww when I got pregnant, getting very frustrated with myself!  I even tested this morning, 10dpo, bfn obviously.  I never test, gave that up a long time ago...  Already getting stressed about trying naturally this month as OH's sex drive seems to have dropped even lower than it already was which is no mean feat... 

Still waiting to hear back from Oxford and Lister on timings although almost certainly going to try with Oxford first as they want to do long protocol.

Hope everyone else is ok.


----------



## esj

Hi everyone, I am following the thread and sending positive vibes to all of you. I just wondered anyone's opinion on the ERA test for optimal transfer timing? I am not at that stage yet with just one frostie and two more cycles to go but anticipating whatever I can do at the time to maximise chances of success. The ERA test is offered at my clinic but very pricey. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
X


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - thanks for raising the *ERA *test. It hadn't previously been on my radar, but you've now set me thinking about the whole issue of timing of transfer. In a fresh IVF cycle, it's just driven by egg collection isn't it, then whether you have a transfer of 3 day embryos, 5 day blasts or whatever. But how on earth do you time a FET? I'd be grateful for any input on this, as I've absolutely no idea!

Do you know how much the ERA test costs at Create? I can't locate Create's pricing for it online, but I notice that in their description of ERA, Create refer to 'Igenomix, part of the IVI group' - would it be viable to go to one of the IVI clinics in Spain just for the test?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ*: about the *ERA *test - further to my asking whether you know how much ERA costs at Create IVF, I've just found a couple of example prices below. I was wondering how the price at Create compares?

*Lister*: ERA (Endometrial Receptivity Array) test plus including scans, £1,195
http://ivf.org.uk/images/P104_IVF_Price_List.pdf

*Gennet City Fertility*: ERA (Endometrial Receptivity Array) £950
"Sedation is subject to an additional fee": Sedation Anaesthesia, £230
Total cost = £1,180
http://www.city-fertility.com/costs

Also: wondered if you'd seen this info from *Igenomix*, apparently the company behind the test?
http://www.igenomix.com/tests/endometrial-receptivity-test-era/

*Flyby* - I wondered if you might have any advice based on how your successful (first time!) FET was managed at Serum?

Also just found this (quite short) thread discussing ERA: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=346958.0

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Flyby

Hi BTS, that's another interesting point, with my frozen transfer I was taking oestrogen which I think stops most people from ovulating, but on cycle day 8 I thought I felt some slight ovulation pain (I usually always feel ovulation) so I did an LH test in the afternoon which said I was having a surge and then with my usual pattern I knew I would probably ovulate that night or next morning so went for a scan and progesterone test later the next day in London which suggested that I had just ovulated (the blood test being most relevant) on cycle day 9!!! Then I booked flights for transfer 4 days later...yes, day 6 blastocysts being transferred on cycle day 13, so I REALLY had to put all my faith in Penny on that one as I was so sure the timing somewhere had gone up the spout!! Her reason to transfer four days later was that embryos of older women tend to do everything slower so instead of day 5 they went back in on the afternoon 4dpo. I spent the whole of the 2ww being absolutely positive I had wasted the embryos due to I inaccurate timing, I couldn't believe my ovulation day was correct either. I usually had short 24 day cycles, but this was even shorter and in my mind my body was not having a normal cycle hospitable for pregnancy or we were interpreting scans/bloods wrongly!!! X


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Flyby* - thanks for that explanation - did Serum ask you to check ovulation with scans/blood test, or was it just your instinct to do that from the earlier than expected ovulation pain? Do you know if Penny ever recommends the ERA test, or not?

I was just looking at your signature again. So between April 2012 - February 2013 you had 14 embryos transferred in fresh IVF cycles, all BFN. Were they all from injectables? Which drugs were they?

I'm still in awe of the difference in success that you had from moving to the Clomid embryo banking cycles. Especially when conventional wisdom might well say, well, you were that little bit older by then, so '_statistically_' a bit less likely to be successful. Ha ha  Did anything else change - e.g. sperm parameters?


----------



## esj

Hi *Beside_the_seaside* 
I saw the ERA test mentioned on the Alex Jones 'Fertility and Me' Programme and yes it was a clinic in spain they featured. Then I just noticed the other day it is mentioned on the pricelist I have from Create. I have no idea how it would work with FET either but Im planning to find out. Really need to weigh up costs though. will keep you posted.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - you just reminded me, I had a pdf price list from Create, version February 2016. I dug it out and note that it lists this:
"Endometrial Receptivity Array (ERA - Test for Implantation) for Personalised Embryo Transfer (includes scans and monitoring)" - £1,200

Is £1,200 the price that you have?

If you ask Create about ERA, please could you also ask them what pain relief would be available - i.e. basically whether the price quoted includes sedation? I suspect it may not, as normally they seem to charge £230 extra separately for any sedation required. (The example I mentioned earlier of costs at Gennet City Fertility shows a separate charge for sedation.)

I have to say, I had the endometrial biopsy at Coventry Implantation clinic with gas and air. I'm guessing that it's a similar method of procedure, although of course they're not testing for the same purpose. The gas and air was OK, but personally I would've found it way too painful to have had the procedure without anything at all.

Have you started your cycle #2 yet?

*Hopeful_one* - any news from cycle #2? Keeping fingers crossed.


----------



## Flyby

Serum didn't ask me to check before hand as they presumed I wouldn't ovulate, but once I detected a surge and thought I felt ovulation that night, I contacted Penny in the morning and she suggested a scan and blood test. 

I've never heard of Penny recommending the ERA test so I don't know about that.

Yes, all those embryos from fresh cycles were BFN!!! The drugs were something like 300 Altermon and 150 Merional. I think it was always a combination of these. Looking back, I sometimes regret not seeing if I could try Gonal F, don't know why, but I always wondered if it may have been better for me due to there being no LH.

You're right, statistically I should have been getting worse quality embryos two years on, but they were consistently better in every Clomid cycle, always producing blastocysts.

I was luckily using donor sperm so didn't need to worry about that! X


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone well I just came back from egg collection, j had 7 follicles and 5 eggs, 4 of which are big enough to try and fertilise. So I just wait to hear now. 
Hope you're all doing ok x


----------



## Agaamh

Hi everyone!
Did you have an experience with Estrogen Priming Protocol?
I want to try it with combination of femara, gonal-f and menopur. I am searching for information.

regarding clo; as the clo might diminish the thickness of the endometrium, the letrozole (femara) does not have this side effect.

@Knockers, congratulations!it is a great result.
could you tell what kind of protocol you had, and which products and dosage of them?


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## kittykatkins

That's excellent news *Knockers* x


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## MissBabs

Keeping fingers crossed for you Knockers xx


I'm on cd1 today so we can now officially order our first batch of Viking ds from Cryos!! Hoping for delivery early week after next for insem middle of that week.    Nothing ventured nothing gained I guess xx


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## Knockers71

Hi my husband and son have just left Prague and I've been in floods of tears, I'm here until Friday I think. 
The clinic seemed really happy with the 4 eggs, they were disappointed by the 7 follicles, but happy with the eggs. Maybe they didn't expect me to produce many eggs at 45?
Agaamh I was on 350 gonal injections for 12 days, now I'm taking progesterone suppositories. 

Nicola x


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## kittykatkins

Aw big hugs Knockers,   Go and treat yourself to some tea and cake x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - really well done on your egg collection! 4 eggs is fantastic! Masses of positive energy that one is mini-Knockers (er, assuming that you wouldn't actually want 4 more children?!!!) The whole process is obviously highly emotionally charged, but I honestly think the injectables can make you really weepy - they do me at any rate. Big hugs for making the best of things in Prague until Friday on your own - eyes on the prize, now!

*MissBabs* - exciting news about the impending arrival of Vikings! (Trust they won't send them by longship ...)


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## Knockers71

Ha ha @beside, no I don't want 4 babies! The thought of twins at 46 terrifies me, so 4 babies, oh my god!!
Missbabs I like the sound of Viking ds! Good luck x


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

Can anyone recommend any clinics they've used? I'm struggling to find a clinic that specialise/have an older women focus.

Many thanks

Paulette


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## MissBabs

Knockers - exciting news about your 4 eggs! Keep your chin up & remember it will all be worth it, plus you've got all of us here to keep you company. Sending you hugs    and lots of luck for the rest of your week. Are you having your ET this week too?


Beside the sea - I hope not haha! What's happening with you next then, are you waiting for next cycle to hopefully harvest more eggs? I read your post earlier about freezing this cycle's eggs for transfer at a later date xx

Thank you ladies for your best wishes, we're calling this our "practise" go so zero expectations but I'm looking forward to getting on with things now.


Sending best wishes & positivity to you all xx


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## Knockers71

Hi missbabs yes ET will be weds or Thursday hopefully, so I will go home for definite by Friday. 
Feeling a bit better now as I've just FaceTimed with the husband. I guess it will be a week of Netflix in the hotel room!
Hoping for good news tomorrow! 
Good luck xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*MissBabs* - Fingers crossed that this Cryos Viking sperm turns out to be the key change that makes the difference! Hope you'll be having a Merry Christmas whilst strictly avoiding alcohol, soft cheese and everything else on the pregnancy banned list! 

About my next IVF cycle: I'm waiting on a couple of things, not least some test results from early this week, to see if I start another 'natural modified' (freeze all) IVF cycle on Wednesday (CD5) or else defer it until my next AF, which should be around 1st December. I'd rather not delay to Dec, but at least it'd still be technically possible to squeeze in a cycle before Xmas.

*Knockers71* - does that mean they're going for day 4 or day 5 transfer? Have I counted that right? If your egg collection was Saturday (Day Zero), Thursday = day 4 and Friday = day 5? Have you had any updates on how the little embies are getting on?

PS: Don't know if it's your thing, but isn't 'the Crown' the big new series on Netflix at the mo?

*Sunflowerseeds* - Hi - please have a skim back through this thread (including signatures), hopefully you'll find some good tips on clinics? For example, *Knockers *is mid-TX at Gynem, Prague at the mo, *Flyby *had a successful pg aged 44 from Serum, Athens. A couple of us are trying Create IVF - they have a few locations in UK, including St Paul's, London. I also cycled at the Lister (Jan 2016) - a great clinic but personally would find them too expensive to do multiple cycles. There's quite a few approachable clinics once you start looking, but I don't want to try to speak for everyone's particular preferences obviously ...


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## Knockers71

Hi beside I think they want to do a 4 or 5 day but they count weds as day 4 and thurs day 5 I think. She did mention something about Tuesday if necessary too. I don't hear until tomorrow as they're closed today x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - Sorry, what was I on about? Yup, lost ability to count days up to 5 . Of course _Wednesday_ = your day 4, and _Thursday _= day 5. And you already said you'd be flying home (PUPO) on Friday! Well, wishing you the very best of luck for whenever your transfer turns out to be. Hope you can start to relax a little now, you've done the hard part (and done it well).


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## Syd72

Knockers, I've got everything crossed for you!

I'm stepping out of the forum for a while as I got a natural bfp this weekend. Feeling a lot of thing right now, so lucky to have had two natural bfp's at 44. Terrified that this one will end in miscarriage like the first did. Angry that I didn't get a second opinion on my fibroid a year ago as I've tried twice to get pregnant since it was finally removed in June and succeeded both times. Sad that if I had met the right man 10 years ago this could potentially have been a relatively easy journey for me.

I will log in every now and then to see how you're all getting on and wish you so much luck. Of course if I have another miscarriage I'll be back and looking to start ivf asap.

X


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd72* - Wow - many congratulations on the natural *BFP*!  What very lovely cheery news for a Monday morning! Hopefully your BFP will be the first of many on this thread.

Interesting to read about the fibroid removal in June - I don't think I knew that, although I'm sorry if you've already mentioned it. Had you been trying very long before then?

Would you mind saying whether you'd been taking any supplements before this BFP - and if so what, particularly whether you were taking DHEA? (Yes the perennial question of whether to take DHEA or not ...)

Wishing you a healthy and happy pregnancy. I can appreciate it might be a nervous ride initially, but hope you will start to relax very soon. Perhaps you can find support from the pregnancy boards on FF?

Hopefully also if you log in every now and then you will be so kind as to post some reassurance on the positive progression of your pregnancy? We'll all be rooting for you!


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## Syd72

Thanks so much Seaside.

I may not have mentioned it actually which is weird because I credit both bfp's to having it removed.  I was trying for a little over a year (although not every month due to oh and I living on different continents, managed most months though) and not a hint of a bfp.  During a scan last year it was discovered I had a 8-10cm fibroid, outside of my womb.  The consultant I saw at the time basically said she wouldn't want to give me hormones at my age to reduce it, I'm not even sure that removing it was mentioned.  She was perfectly nice but very sceptical about the possibility of conceiving at my age (then 43) and that was that.  I started having fertility reflexology last August and at some point mentioned the fibroid to her, she advised me to get a second opinion and gave me the name of a consultant that specialises in that area.  Even though there's no real evidence to say that fibroids affect fertility she feels quite strongly about them (she being the reflexologist) and said that in Spain if someone is ttc and has a fibroid it just gets whipped out immediately!  Stupidly I ignored her, based on what the consultant had said. She brought it up again this year so I decided to go and see her recommended consultant.  An MRI showed the fibroid was now around 12cm and his advice was to remove it.  Which he did in June - by which time it was 16cm x 16cm!  I just cannot believe that wasn't part of the problem since I was trying for over a year before it was removed and nothing whereas the twice I've tried since I've been successful.

More than happy to talk about supplements   I take a ridiculous amount.  I've been on 300 of ubiquinol for around 6 months - I have a feeling I took 400 per day for the first couple of weeks; maca on and off but have been taking it this cycle; 5000iu of vit d; magnesium (this cycle switched to combined magnesium and calcium); zinc (stopped this month as I switched to "natural health practice fertility support for women); vitamin c (was taking 100 but took it down to 50 this cycle due  to the fertility support tablets containing some vit c); probiotic; vit e; efas; epo up to ovulation; 400 of folate; 50 of b6 (was taking 100 the month of my first bfp); approx 1000 of b12.  I think that's everything!  I used to just take the natural health practice supplement but when I started investigating at the beginning of this year I realised things like ubiqunol is better than coq10 for women over 40 plus I felt some of the levels just weren't enough.  Just this last month I've gone back onto that supplement, not really sure why, I think after my last bfp I though I should start taking something more specifically rather than a list of things I'd found in google   I do still add in a lot of my own as you can see.

I've never taken DHEA.

As well as all the supplements I've been having reflexology for over a year and acupuncture for over 6 months, not as regularly as I would like due to travel and hardly at all now I've moved to Hong Kong (only when I'm back in the UK) but still quite a lot of sessions.  I've also had a couple of fertility massages with a friend that does that in London.

I'd be very happy to post updates if that's ok with everyone.

x


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## kittykatkins

That's fantastic news Syd.  Gives us all hope!


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## Knockers71

Congratulations Syd! That's great news xx
So I just found out 3 of my eggs fertilised and are grade 1 embryos. That's good, right? Xx


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.

Sounds good to me knockers, congrats!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - brilliant to have THREE and can't get better than grade 1! Sounds like you are perfectly on track.


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## MissBabs

Syd: amazing news, congratulations!!! Sending you good vibes for a healthy & successful pregnancy   


Knockers: sounds fab to me! Well done you! Bet you can't wait to have them back on board - how many are you going to have transferred? 


Seaside: sending you positivity for Weds, hoping you get the go ahead without further delays   


xxx


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone yes so far so good, I was convinced they would say none had fertilised! I hope they make it til Thursday! Or one of them, at least!! 
I'm having 1 or 2 put back in. 
I'm going a bit mad in my hotel room, but I found a nice cafe today that I'm going to tomorrow. I still feel weak sbd my ovaries are sore, I guess that's normal. I also have really painful boobs! X


----------



## Knockers71

Hi so I just got an email from my representative snd she said all 3 embryos are grade 1 still, one is compacted, one has 4 cells and one 8. Is this good, i don't really know what this means? She said transfer might be tomorrow but they want to wait til Thursday to see if they reach blastocyst. 
Any explanation would be great! 

Thanks, Nicola


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## Blondie71

Nicola transfer all 3 if you get the chance as almost impossible 3 would take never seen it yet due to age egg quality but you may get one that will out of the 3, at 40 I had 1 out of 4 take ☺ good luck x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - well it sounds like very good news to me!

I have to say, I've very little experience of this and hope more people who know about this stuff will be along soon.

Agree with *Blondie71 * (just look at those gorgeous babies!) it's worth transferring as many of the 3 as are still viable on transfer day.

I do know that the fact that your embies are still grade 1, must mean they are each growing/dividing without fragmenting - and the lower the amount of fragmentation the better.

As a general rule I thought that ordinarily the embryologists expect to see 8 cells on day 3 (i.e. Tuesday for you), but there's often a range of around 6 - 10 cells. Then a compacting morula on day 4 (i.e. Wednesday) although sometimes it gets there by day 3. Then blastocyst on day 5 (i.e. Thursday). You could Google yourself mad on this! E.g. http://www.advancedfertility.com/embryos.htm

In my first Create cycle they froze a 6 cell embryo early on day 3. I was a little confused about this but was told that embies can change so fast that it could easily have been 8 cells an hour later ...

I don't think you've any reason for concern at all - it sounds like it's going _really well._ But of course you're perfectly entitled to try to understand more (it would be weird if you weren't interested in it!). Could you not reply to your representatives email and ask if someone could explain the findings?

Maybe try to take your mind off it for a while? Don't know whether Prague is freezing today, but hope you can enjoy a nice walk about perhaps?

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Knockers71

Thanks blondie and beside xx
Yes the clinic seems very pleased. They transfer 2 at the most at Gynem, so I don't think they'll use all 3.
It's a few degrees colder here than the U.K. but weirdly it doesn't feel it, it doesn't feel as bitter as it gets in the U.K. I'm going to a cafe later for a hot chocolate and pumpkin soup! I don't really feel up to a day out, I'm not sleeping well and feel I need to rest today. ( I have ME, not sure if I mentioned it before) 
Xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers * - I'm sorry, I didn't know about you having ME. Of course, you will know how best to rest and relax; chocolate and pumpkin soup sounds like a great start!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Just read this in the November Voice newsletter from CHR in New York, entitled "How old is too old for trying pregnancy with your own eggs?" It was written in response to an article in the New York Times, which had claimed there's an extremely low chance of pregnancy for women over 40/42 with own eggs.

https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/fertility/how-old-is-too-old-for-trying-pregnancy-with-your-own-eggs/?utm_source=VOICE&utm_medium=email

"... Though ... IVF outcomes in older women are relatively poor in comparison to younger women and especially young donor egg cycles, and get poorer with advancing age, they are (i) not as poor as noted in the article; (ii) they, indeed, can be much better than even appreciated by colleagues (as published by CHR investigators) and (iii) are constantly getting better.

The latter point is of great importance because there is no better evidence for progress than the fact that older and older women conceive with use of their own eggs. *Only less than 10 years ago, women above age 44 had no chances of conceptions at CHR.* *Nowadays, pregnancies at age 45 or 46 no longer are cause for celebration. The current age limit is at 47, and we this year almost breached it* *when a woman, a few days short of her 48th birthday, conceived but, unfortunately, a few weeks later experienced a miscarriage.*

In medicine, like in many other areas of life, practice makes better! Unless our colleagues are willing to learn how to treat older women, they, of course, never will succeed, will continue to believe in excessively low IVF success rates, will continue to counsel their patients inaccurately and, therefore, will be responsible for many women going prematurely into egg donation, who may for the rest of their lives regret the decision, even if they have a beautiful child from egg donation because they feel that 'they were not given the chance to at least try.' ..."


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## Knockers71

That's really great to read beside, that's what I need to hear right now 😃


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## Syd72

I'm so glad all is going well knockers, look after yourself.

I don't think this pregnancy is going to stick sadly. HCG test yesterday was only 8, they want me back in 48 hrs to see if it's rising but that's very low. I'm assuming the measurements are different for blood and urine as I got 1-2 on a digi yesterday lunchtime.


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## Knockers71

Hi syd, I'm so sorry, I really hope things look better in 48 hours xx

I'm having my egg transfer tomorrow. I now have one morula grade 1 and two compacting morulas grade 1-2
They are very pleased so far. Such a long way to go, things can go awry at any stage x


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## Blondie71

Will they let you transfer the 3?? I can tell you mine were not great quality hence all 4 going back and i'm so glad I went for max as no regrets, I guess the point is don't get too caught up on quality as weaker embryos are often the ones that result in beautiful babies 😊


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## Knockers71

Hi blondie I'd be a bit scared of having triplets 😳 Twins would be bad enough, but at least I have two breasts and two hands!! We already have one child ( a nine year old boy)  I think if we didn't already have a child multiple pregnancy wouldn't worry me xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd *- please try not to panic. As it's a natural pregnancy, you can't be sure exactly when you ovulated / conceived, sperm can be viable for a good few days, etc. The degree of increase is the key, not where you start, as you know. Let's hope HCG is rising nicely when you have it re-tested.

*Knockers* - sounds marvellous! Fingers crossed for your transfer tomorrow. If it's not your clinic policy (or you don't want to) to put back all 3, could you transfer 2, and freeze the other one, just in case?

Mixed news from me:

1. Had a baseline antral follicle count on Monday (day 3) and still have follicles, yay! In fact 11 of them; 7 on right and 4 on left. Stupidly over-excited that I don't appear to have shut up shop quite yet.

2. Went to IVF clinic today (day 5) to try to start my natural modified cycle #3. Turned out they won't proceed once they knew I had an NHS colposcopy scheduled for late next week. It's basically a cervical exam that the IVF consultant recommended following my last egg collection. I'm trying not to think about it, although I'm pretty terrified about the implications. I'm praying it turns out to be nothing and I can carry on with the freeze-all cycles without delay. If nothing else, it means it'll be 1 December before I can do more IVF though. Aaaarrrgh - time is seriously of the essence, obviously.

3. Had our hidden infection test results back from Serum. Positive for a couple of things - moreso DP than me. Perhaps this shouldn't be confusing/surprising given the shed load of antibiotics I've had to take for various things in the last couple of years. We both have to take antibiotics now, for 25 days (me) and 40 days (him). I'm hoping that perhaps it might somehow also have an impact on his anti-sperm antibodies, but I've really no idea on the cause (and possible resolution) of those.

I suppose my best hope now, is to get to 1 December with a clean bill of (cervical) health, newly full of antibiotics and try to squeeze in another freeze-all IVF cycle before Xmas.

Bit sad today, Seaside x


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## Knockers71

Hi seaside, that's amazing about your follicles! That's loads!! I had less than that. I'm sorry about your other results, there's so much that has to be looked at and that we have to go through with this conceiving lark. Hopefully all will be fine 🙂 I had a colposcopy years ago too, it was all ok and over very quickly. 
They put back 2 if you want to, but no more than that. I'm not sure about freezing the other one as we've kind of run out of money, it's  working out a lot more than we thought due to the crap exchange rate 😥
I had no idea I'd be so hungry during IVF!! I'm ravenous and need to eat every few hours! And I'm so bloated, boobs really sore etc. It's a long emotional road this ttc business x


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## Syd72

Oh Seaside, great news on the follicles but the rest of it is crap


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks *Syd * - bizarrely, I'm reasonably happy about the hidden infections. You know that feeling where you think you might've found the answer? A vain hope probably in my case. But yes, the colposcopy and IVF delay is total crap. Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed for you.

*Knockers* - obviously your priority has to be to your transfer. I hope you'll decide to go with 2 - and of course they'll choose you the two best ones. Oh I know the 'run out of money' problem all too well! Interest free credit cards take a hammering!! I just wondered whether now that you have gone to so much time and trouble to create those morulas/blastocysts, that freezing the third-best-but-still-good one would be an option? Just in case (I hesitate to say it, as the prospects for the first two look really good) you might need to go back for it?

Sometimes I think clinics freeze any remaining blastocysts that are good enough as part of what you've already paid for the cycle. On the other hand, I've just tried to look at Gynem's price list. They've got this: "Cryoconservation of oocytes / embryos 1 straw (storage for 1 years) up to 2 embryos - VITRIFICATION - 400 EUR / 330 GBP" I think you'd want the 'vitrification' as opposed to the cheaper 'slow freezing' option. So perhaps even if they would make a charge for it in your case, it would cost less than you might have thought?

Thanks for sharing your experience of having a colposcopy that was all OK. I briefly mentioned it to a friend of mine at the weekend (who doesn't know about trying IVF, as I've told no one ...) and she said she'd been referred for a colposcopy after an abnormal smear, then had to have some treatment. She said she was so blase about the treatment, it never even occurred to her to worry about it, that she decided to cycle to hospital and wondered why everyone was in a flap about there being no one to collect her and take her home again. She added she'd had a normal smear since, all fine. All reassuring I guess, but it's just the time taken in having to work through that


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I just remembered, partly with your story in mind I think, I asked the sonographer who scanned me on Monday to check on my fibroid. I never knew I had it until I was pregnant with my daughter and it was pointed out at an early scan. It got worse whilst I was pregnant (they told me it would be expected to, due to hormones) and has then got smaller again since. So on Monday, she reported it as being "within the lower, posterior wall of the uterus ... a subserosal fibroid measuring 13*.*4mm x 14*.*9mm".

Her take on it was that provided fibroids are relatively small and don't intrude into the uterine lining, and don't distort the shape of the uterus/lining in any way, they're fine to leave well alone. I guess that was very unlikely to be the case with your fibroid, if it was 12cm on diagnosis and 16cm by the time of removal! It's terrible that you were so ill-advised initially, but good for you for not taking no for an answer and following it up. The removal does sound like the thing that's made the difference to you.

And the other thing she told me was this (drumroll please ...)

She has a patient who was aged 47 when she conceived her baby naturally and has recently scanned her again, now well into her third trimester, all progressing well.

That properly cheered me up. Briefly.

Seaside x


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## MissBabs

Oh Seaside    Sending you big hugs, so sorry to read of your crappy day. I was really hoping your next cycle wouldn't be delayed.   


Knockers - great news about your 3 eggs! Hope you're relaxing & looking after yourself. Lots of luck & positivity for ET tmrw   


Syd - saying prayers for you xx


And from me - we've ordered the Vikings! We had an email reply asking if we wanted to change our order as we've ordered Mot5 straws which are usually insufficient for home insem but we've decided to stick with them for this month (with zero expectations) and reconsider (& save our pennies!) for future insems.


Xxx


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## highlandgirl

Hello Ladies 

Sorry I have been missing in action but sometimes life gets in the way of this baby making  
Trying to catch up with you all so sorry if I miss you out but this thread has moved so quickly which is just fantastic!

Beside - I am so pleased to hear you have 11 follies that is just fab   I only got 5 follies after my full IVF tx!
I have never had a baseline scan so not sure what I would have had in the way of follies but will be getting one day 2 or 3 of next cycle if it ever shows up ...
I had a colposcopy 8 years ago as I had abnormal cells after a routine smear but have had clear smears since then so I'm sure you will be fine x
It's great that they have worked out you need the antibiotics and are on track with a possible tx before xmas.
How many embies do you currently have frozen?
Great to hear about the 47 year old - my friend has just had a work colleague have her first child naturally at 47  
I read the article from CYR and I have listened to them on a podcast so if I had the money I would be going there! 


Syd - I am soooooo rooting for you xx

Knockers - So pleased for your results - I had 3 eggs 2 fertilised which turned into 2 grade A embies and both were put back so I am praying for you  
I had sore boobs  and bloating and ate A LOT!
I also had a migraine as well but you sound like you are really on track and again I am praying for you too xx

Miss babs - how's the Viking swimmers? X

Sunflowers - I had my tx at GCRM in Glasgow but I know that create and lister seem to be more popular xx

What next - How are you?

Kitty / agamhh / esj / lily / hopeful / ttcnk / Gemini / Sommblume / Altai / gwineth / rah / moon - how are we all? Xx

I am on day 27 and no sign of AF - I got AF on day 31 after tx but I would normally be between 25-29 so it is very strange and I also did not OV even though I tested every day from day 6 to 25 on the CB OPK - very frustrated xx
Just want to get on the clomid ! X


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## Gemini40

Hi, I had a consultation today with a new clinic. He was very nice and asked me what I wanted to do OE or de cycle. He felt my chances of OE were 10% and de 55%. He thought that dhea might be helpful trying naturally and told me to have a testosterone test, send him results and he would recommend dosage. I will get on to that asap


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## Blondie71

I understand completely Nicola very hard to know what to do but just knowing how cruel this game is and especially as years are creeping up you need to throw everything including the kitchen sink at it! Very best of luck tomm and hope to see a big fat positive on here in 2 weeks 😊


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## Syd72

Thanks for the kind words ladies.  Second blood test this afternoon.

Seaside, yep, I think I have one or two very small ones and he decided not to touch those.  I think it's a case that at that size they're highly unlikely to cause any problems but cutting in to me to get them out could have delayed my starting ttc again whilst I healed.  My large fibroid sounds like it was in the same place yours is, I guess it just must have blocking everything getting through to where it needed to be!

There's a lady on another forum I'm on who is pregnant at 47.  Came as a complete surprise, she's never had children (I think didn't meet the right man until she was older) and thought she was starting menopause, she was well into her second trimester before she realised she was actually pregnant, now in her third trimester and everything seems to be going really well.

Highland, hope it gets going soon.  It always seems to be the same, arrives when you don't want it and doesn't arrive when you do!

Knockers, best of luck for today!  Very excited for you.

Gemini, is that a UK clinic?

MissBabs, hope they arrive soon 

Hi to anyone I've missed.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi ladies - was actually just checking in to see whether Knockers/Syd might have updates yet?

*Knockers *- hope your transfer has gone really well  

*Syd *- very best wishes also for your HCG blood test results.

*Miss Babs* - I had to Google what on earth a "MOT5 straw" was! I think I've seen MOT20 as the minimum motility that is recommended for home insems. I can completely understand why you might want to crack on with something that's already arranged - I felt that disappointment in having to abandon my plans for a cycle yesterday, and it just sucks. However, I do hope that if it turns out that you're unsuccessful this time, you'll realise the MOT5 is probably the reason and not be in the least deterred from giving it another go? Sorry if that's coming across negative, it's meant to be the opposite.

*Highlandgirl* - great to hear from you again! And look what you started; 13,713 views later, your thread is still going strong. Thank you so much for creating this space.

OK, I'm trying to work this out. If you are now CD28 today, would you expect AF by Saturday 12th (if you're usually 25-29 days)?? Or Sunday if it's a bit longer as per your TX cycle? You should be able to get on the Clomid within the week, no? Which day of your cycle do you start Clomid?

About the follicle count - if you're scanned early in cycle ('baseline'), I think you generally expect to see more follicles than if you're scanned in the middle (or later) part. Not all follicles will respond to TX and they certainly won't all start to grow in a natural cycle.

*Gemini40* - I'd love to be given a 10% chance with OE! Although, if you are still only 40, I'd say that was pretty conservative/negative on behalf of the clinic actually. I'd have thought your odds would be higher than 10%.

Nothing more exciting to report from me other than new and interesting ways to burn money on TTC. I've just spent £216*.*60 on a private prescription for three different types of antibiotics! _Two hundred quid_! These are the treatments for the findings from our 'hidden infection' tests run by Serum, Athens. I'd thought that being 'only' antibiotics they'd be quite cheap, but turns out not really. OK compared to the rest of our TX it's a mere drop in the ocean, but all these drippety drops add up to quite a flood don't they!


----------



## Syd72

Ah thanks seaside. I had my second test this afternoon but haven't heard so it'll be tomorrow. However, the midwife called me to say based on my first test it really wasn't worth getting retested as my levels aren't high enough to sustain a pregnancy. I've been lightly bleeding all day today so I know it's a over. I just want to hear the results so I do 't keep holding on to false hope. 

This was our last natural chance before 45 so it'll be IVF December/January.


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## Knockers71

Oh Syd I'm so sorry xx this is a cruel cruel thing to go through. Where will you go for IVF? 
Good luck Gemini with your journey x
Highland girl I hope your period is late for a positive reason! 
Well I had 2 top grade and quality embryos put in, one was AA apparently( like a battery?!) and I have one grade 2 left which we could freeze. One of the embryos was about to hatch! I didn't even know they did that! They were all blastocysts. I've done all I can now, just have to wait   Xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - super excited for your TWO top grade blastocysts, especially the hatching one! I don't really understand it, having never got that far with TX, but I see "assisted hatching" listed on price lists as a service that some people need/choose to buy, so it's marvellous yours are clearly doing the 'hatching' on their own! If you look at this: [ http://www.advancedfertility.com/blastocystimages.htm ] the one that's top grade and AA like a battery, must be really good!
I remember *Flyby *explaining how hard (and perhaps rare) that it becomes even to get to blastocyst, so you've done brilliantly well!
Have you decided what to do with the grade 2 blastocyst left over? Freeze it, freeze it, freeze it! (Had I said that already?)
When are you flying home? Two week wait will be tense I'm sure, but better with your DH and son. I have to say, I'd be tentatively expecting good news if I were you!

*Syd* - I'm sorry if your instincts turn out to be right on this one. If you do need to go for IVF, would you still favour long protocol at Oxford? Your AMH is so good, you'll be fine.


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## Gemini40

Hi Syd,
The clinic I went to is in ireland. 
besidethesea, I have an amh of someone much older than 40 unfortunately. I am getting blood test tomorrow for testosterone and going to do dhea and try naturally in the meantime. I know what u mean about burning money on TTC but at least it feel like we are doing something


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## Knockers71

Hi seaside, as the last embryo is grade 2 they're going to observe it for a day or so to see if it continues well then they'll let me know if it's good enough to freeze, as they tend to downgrade when they defrost apparently. 
I'm just trying to take it one day at a time, so hard though! My husband is really excited x


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## Syd72

Thanks Seaside.  Blood test last night confirmed levels are down to 3 so no longer pregnant, appears to be cd 1 today.  At least it was quick this time rather than lingering on like it did in August.

I have what I suspect is a daft question - do some of the IVF meds have to be kept in the fridge?  The reason I'm asking is that I'll be doing it whilst staying at my parents for a few weeks and for various reasons I REALLY don't want them to know but if I have to keep stuff in the fridge I won't have any choice but to tell them.

Yes, I think I am going to go to Oxford for the long protocol.  I just hope I'm not being an idiot by not going to Lister since so many people recommend it...  

Knockers, so excitged for you.  Are you back in the UK now?


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## Knockers71

Hi Syd, you don't have to keep the IVF drugs in the fridge, just room temperature. I think only if you're storing them for months they have to be refrigerated. 
I'm flying back today at 12,30! Can't wait to get home and out of this hotel room! 
I'm worried about having to carry my case myself though, it's a drag along one but I'll have to haul it off the luggage carousel and on and off the train. 
I'm so sorry Syd xx


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## Syd72

Thanks knockers, and thanks for the info, that makes things a bit easier 

I'm honestly sure you'll be find carrying your case, has anyone suggested it could be a problem?  You could always use a trolley and ask someone friendly looking to help you get it on and off the carousel, tell them you have a bad back


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd*: I'm sorry to hear about your disappointing HCG result. It's so cruel to have your hopes raised and then dashed again. I hope it makes it a little easier having a back-up plan already in place. As regards choosing the clinic at Oxford, it seems a very sensible choice to (a) give a long protocol a try first, and (b) go with a consultant who has already treated you, who you are familiar with and trust.

I'll second what *Knockers *has told you about not (necessarily) needing to refrigerate IVF drugs. I can well imagine it might cause stress, I think telling parents about IVF can be a bit like inviting pressure / expectations of an instant grandchild!

My first cycle, I got really stressed about doing everything perfectly. I felt so much was out of my control, that I was a total control freak about anything within my power to influence. The fact I'm now really blase and swift in doing my injections, isn't necessarily a good sign ...

I remember stressing about refrigeration too, so here's what I know:

I suppose it depends what you end up being prescribed, but all my cycles have been Gonal F (synthetic FSH), which is what *Knockers* had too (albeit different dosage), I believe. It's a pretty common prescription.

Here's a patient leaflet for Gonal F from the manufacturers, Merck Serono:
http://www.fertility-information.com/media/GONAL-f_Patient_Tear_Off_Pad.pdf

You'll see that you keep it in the fridge (at 2 - 8 C) if you're storing it for months on end. Within it's shelf life, you can keep it out of the fridge (at or below 25 C) for 3 months if UNopened. Once you open it, you can keep it outside the fridge (<25 C) for 28 days. Hopefully that reassures you a bit?

Note that some pharmacists will _still _advise you to keep Gonal F in the fridge, although you definitely don't have to for the limited times mentioned above. In fact, a pharmacist at the Lister hospital told me NOT to keep it in the fridge; she said whilst they have data on it's stability when it's refrigerated and data for when it's kept outside the fridge, they have no reliable data for temperature cycling (i.e. for when it's often taken out of the fridge, comes up to room temperature, goes back in the fridge again).

If that's not enough to put you off the fridge, the big risk is accidentally freezing it: if there's a chance it might've had ice crystals in, they'll tell you to throw it away. So you (your parents....) need to be sure the fridge maintains a constant temperature. I had a fridge thermometer that broke (the fridge itself was actually fine) but thinking it was running warm I altered the thermostat thing, froze everything (well it was about 0 - 0.5 C), then had to chuck a brand new 900ml £300 Gonal F pen. Aaaargh!

Drugs like Menopur and/or Cetrotide that you have to mix together from powder* immediately prior to injection each time you use them, definitely do NOT need to go in the fridge. [ *As in mix like this: http://www.fertility-information.com/media/Cetrotide_InjectGuide_A3_-_CET16-0001a_Certified.pdf ]

If your one-off trigger shot is Ovitrelle, if that comes as a pre-filled pen, then it SHOULD be kept in the fridge: http://www.fertility-information.com/media/Ovitrelle_Tearpad_OVI16-0001a_-_certified.pdf

BUT there's a brand of Ovitrelle (for my cycle at the Lister, dispensed by Asda) that you have to mix from powder immediately prior to injection, so that can stay at room temp.

My big tip is get a private prescription and do a bit of ringing round on costs. I've found Asda Pharmacy have been cheaper (sometimes by quite a lot) on all my drugs. They're all brand names, so it's not like I've been getting the generic value version either. The pharmacist told me the one she thought was sometimes worth getting directly from clinics is Menopur, as occasionally they had better bulk buying than Asda did on that one.

Here's a link for other Merck Serono products: http://www.fertility-information.com/patient-products

Hope some of that helps a bit?

*Knockers* - Hope you're back safely in UK. Wishing you every success x

I'd be interested to know, if you could possibly say, roughly how much (ball park) you think flights and accommodation cost if doing TX overseas? I've little idea how much I'd need to budget for, for a cost comparison.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## highlandgirl

Syd - sorry to hear about your hcg sending you positive vibes for your tx x
Knockers - also sending the same to you good luck and keep us posted so excited to get the first possible BFP on this thread! Xx
Beside - I am now on day 30 and really feel out of sync - no ovulation at all and no AF yet despite me usually ovulating nearly every month according to CB OPK and a regular cycle with day 25/27 average and absolutely no signs - think I may miss the clomid this cycle and maybe next cycle and then go on holiday then decide whether to do clomid or go straight to IVF?
Acupuncturist says I need to rebalance after tx - I am also trying to lose weight and think I will just try naturally next 2 cycles if AF ever comes and if I ever get a smiley face on the OPK! Xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - I'm a bit confused. If you are minded to try naturally for the next 2 cycles, could you not add Clomid into one of them to give you an extra bit of oomph? Clomid's really cheap - isn't it like £20 or something for the cycle - and then maybe a couple of scans to help you time DTD?


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## highlandgirl

Hi beside I got the clomid from stork and it is only £3.20 for the 6 pills you take day 2-6 in your cycle. Private prescription from the clinic. 
Scan day 2 or 3 then day 12 with timed DTD x 
Just see when I get AF as I feel out of balance completely xx


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## Agaamh

Hi Ladies,

@highlandgirl,  if I am on clomid, the thickness of the endometrium is affected, just not growing. A doctor from one of feritlity clinisc I contacted, recommended to use Femara (letrozole), to avoid this negative effect on the endometrium. It was also confirmed by the clinic in BE where I already had a treatment. I had an appointment to consult the protocol that was proposed to me in PL. The doctor was not so happy about this protocol. And recommended to use only one drug (gonal F), combined with femara. He also knows the clinic that I want to chose, as he met them during an international conference. It is the bestand biggest  clinic in PL. So I am felling a little better about my choice. However, he also mentioned, that at my age, it is like a lottery. Somebody always win... 

@syd the same story I had after the second cycle, the Level of the hcg was 8, but they immediately considered, as negative. Of course I retested twice, and it went down.

@knockers I hope you arrived well home!

@ beside: I also can say something about "burning money".

I also decided that the treatment that I am going to start in late december, it will be my last treatment and I stopped. As it takes so much energy and I have a feeling that I don't live anymore, everything is around the ttc...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - I think with those costs it's surely worth a go, isn't it? Hope you feel "reset" and back to normal once you get AF.

Interesting comment from *Agaamh *about Clomid's potentially negative effect on the endometrium. I've heard lots of women use Femara/Letrozole, as a direct swap for Clomid, as the former doesn't have the same impact on the lining. No idea whether you'd like to ask your clinic to change the prescription at this stage? Or if you're still giving Clomid a whirl (I guess it's really short notice before your next day 2) then at least the scan you have on day 12 will tell you whether for you, there's been an unduly negative effect on your lining or not. Because of course they'll measure the thickness of the lining and it may well be good/thick enough for implantation. I guess it just needs to be thick _enough _doesn't it, not the thickest endometrium anyone's ever had! Thousands of women use Clomid successfully, of course, and I guess it's one of those things that you'll never know until you try! Wishing you best of luck!

*Agaamh* - Which clinic are you going to in December? Do you mean Poland for 'PL'? - sorry for being slow. With regards to your doctor's comment that at your age, it's like a lottery. But yes, somebody always wins! Well I hope you do win! In fact of course I hope we all get a turn!

ATM I'm just unbelievably sick of the hanging around and waiting. I'd expected I'd be day 4 of my (ultra-low dose) stim injections today. _Not _doing TX is so much tougher than feeling like you're actually trying to do _something_! Just hoping, praying, my colposcopy next week is fine (daren't even consider the alternative ...) and I can get cracking with TX again in December.


----------



## Agaamh

regarding clomid; It is in my case, that it has a negatice effect on the lining. my gyn as I was on clomid, gave me a progynova  to boost the lining, and I had to take it as from day 8 until 14. however, she monitored my cycle. This combination was fine for me.

I will go to Novum in warsaw. Unfortunately they are not so flexible, and we have to go there to sigh all papers. I have to be there as from 7th day for monitoring. additionally they request more pre testing, also for my husband than in BE. Those testing we can do in BE, but some of them like the bacteriology (e.g. sperm culture and some tests for me) should be not older than one month. So it will be a big logistic challange as in BE the laboratory does not send very fast the lab results. 
I also had to make a test if plasma cells are present in the endometrium and some other checks. This I already did in BE, and everything is fine.
The clinic also recommended to take DHEA (3 per day), Coenzyme 10 and vit D3. Additionally I will take a drug to put my immunology down after transfer. And depending on the lining progynova.
They also recommended the endomentrial scratching a cycle before, this I could make in BE as well as I agreed it with my previous clinic.I would prefer to do in PL. the BE clinic does it as a "clinical study". the doctor told the resultas do not show that Implantation rates are improved

Have a nice Saturday x


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## Knockers71

Hello everyone, I got home yesterday about 5, chilling out today as I'm exhausted!! 
The third embryo degraded a lot yesterday and wasn't good enough to freeze, so let's hope one of these two make it! 
Seaside the IVF at Gynem was 1990 euros or something like that, and the meds about 1400. Do that should have been £2500 but in fact was more like £3000. Then the scans, another £300, flights £600, accommodation £400 and spending money etc and was nearing £5000. I was expecting £3500-4000 but with the rubbish exchange rate it was a good grand more. All my inheritance has gone 😪 And we need to get a new car!!
Did anyone havd any recommendations about sex?! The clinic just told me no heart lifting or baths. My case was fine in the end, I got help and just pushed and pulled it rather than lifted it! Xx


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## estella

Hi There, What a great collection of ladies! I am almost 44. Live in Dublin. Have been TTC naturally for almost a year no bfps. Tried the usual mix of DHEA, ubiquinol etc etc but have 2 children over 6 naturally so was able to conceive years ago. I'd say I'm just old rather than any other physical conditions.. Looking for advice, what would you do if you were me? I have narrowed a couple of IVF options to reprofit and Gennet - are these good for older ladies?Any other clinics that would be better?  Should I be trying IUI locally also or is that a waste of money at my age? Thanks!! X


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## Knockers71

Hi Estella, I think at our age it's best to go straight to IVF, although the other ladies may have more experience with it than me. I've just come back from Gynem in Prague and can't fault them, they were great x


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## MissBabs

Evening all


Seaside - no, it certainly won't put us off trying again next month, we've already decided that we'll probably change our order to at least Mot10 straws next time, although it will be cost dependent so we'll have to see, maybe we'll go for fewer insems per cycle but higher quality sperm. I read the other day that, in any given cycle, multiple insems with Mot5 statistically has a higher success rate than one insem with Mot10 which confused me ha! Any thoughts?


Oh Syd - so sorry to read your news    Sending you love and best wishes for more positive news next time. I wish there was something less useless I could say xx


Knockers - hope you're doing well and 2ww isn't driving you mad! Make sure you get enough rest X


Hi Estella! I'm new around here too but am lucky to have found such a friendly and welcoming bunch of ladies! I wish you a short and fruitful stay on this board!


AFM - our swimmers have landed in the UK already! They left Denmark on Friday, spent the night in Germany yesterday and are now in the East Midlands! Fingers crossed they arrive tomorrow as I unexpectedly got a flashing smiley on my OPK this morning (cd9)!


Much love to all xx


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## estella

Thanks Knockers, I'm going to do bloods for the first time tomorrow to send to either gennet or reprofit for IVF

Nice to meet you too missbabs, hopefully we are not on the thread for too long. Best of luck with your precious delivery from Denmark!!! x

Supposedly egg quality after 43 really drops off. I am considering DEIVF also, and actively looking into options there but would like to try OEIVF first. If only cost wasn't an issue.....


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## Beside_the_seaside

*MissBabs* - What an adventurous journey your swimmers are on! I wish I knew what to say about the motility grading, but I've absolutely no idea.

I wondered whether the cost varied very much and (in fact whilst I was on interminable hold to a Customer Services department this morning ...) I had a nose around Cryos website. It's impressive isn't it? What I found amazing was the cost variance between "UK standard"/Non-Anonymous straws and Anonymous straws that I think can be used in places like Denmark. Anonymous is so much cheaper! You seem to get the same level of info about the donor, the difference is the donor's consent to be contacted in the future, is that right? Or, can you use 'Anonymous' for home insems in UK?

I remember reading ages ago about British women going to Denmark for IUI with Viking sperm; I've an idea that Stork Klinik may have been used as an example (http://www.storkklinik.dk/en/fertility-center-denmark/home.html). It made me wonder whether ONE try with IUI at a clinic that's allowed to use 'Anonymous' could work out more cost effective than several shipments to UK? Just a thought. But like I say, I'm just learning, I know nothing about it really!

Hi *Estella *- welcome to the thread! How lovely to have 2 kids already - how old, boy/girl?

*Knockers *is right, best to get cracking with IVF sooner rather than later. Speaking as someone who thought getting knocked up stupidly easily the first time meant it could be replicated again no bother. How wrong I was 

As regards choosing between Gennet in Czech Republic and Reprofit, I quite like the sound of Gennet, as they've got that sister clinic in London, haven't they (Gennet City Fertility) which seems quite reassuring. I discounted City Fertility though due to their age limit of 45th birthday.

The one thing I'd say about Reprofit is that they seem to have a very active, expansive donor egg programme. I know lots of ladies are successful there with DE. So (based on no information whatsoever other than an ill-informed hunch) if I were you, I'd be slightly cautious about being pushed too hastily towards DE. Because, and I apologise if I'm reading your situation wrong, at 'only' 44, with 2 genetic children already, I'd say it would be perfectly understandable if you had a strong preference to try OE first.

Will be interested to read what you decide to do - and very best of luck with it.

*Knockers *- hanging on in your 2ww? 
*Highlandgirl *- starting Clomid? 
*Hopeful_one* - any news?

Hope everyone else is OK?


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## estella

Hi Beside_the _Seaside,

Yes I am super lucky to have a boy and a girl already. Sometimes I think I am being selfish to want more and that I should be grateful for what I have and believe me, I am. My partner had mental health issues and we had a rocky road for many years but we seemed to have resolved things over the past few years to the point that we were happy to begin trying for another baby last year. TBH I thought it would happen all by its self but a year on, we are still TTC. 

I feel that I have other children that are 'out there' . But I just have to give this a bit of work.

You are reading my situation correctly. I am 44 and have 2 genetic children but the youngest is 6. But you are right I do think that at 44 I have a chance of OEIVF. Good tip about not being pushed into OEIVF.

Do you think medicated  IUI would be useless? I am thinking of one or 2 between IVF cycles.

I say cycles, I could probably afford just one in 2017 and would then have to look at DEIVF

Pity this journey wasn't more affordable!!!!!

Just as a nice little anecdote for us all, my first cousin conceived her 2nd child at the ripe old age of 49. She thought she was going through menopause! The stories are out there.

Wishing love and luck to all on this board xxx


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## estella

*DEIVF


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone, hope you're all ok. I'm hanging on in there thanks seaside, I felt a bit flat now I'm back and my son and husband were at school/ work today and I was home alone. Weird. I'm waiting for feelings/ symptoms of egg plantation as I felt it with my son. Nothing yet, this is day 4 after transfer. 
Syd, hope you're ok x
Missbabs sounds like your swimmers are having a fun journey! I hope they arrive soon. 
Estelle good luck with what you decide, I say throw everything at it you can! I went past gennet in my taxi on the way to the airport on Saturday actually. I was wondering where the other clinics in Prague were. 
Xx


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## estella

Best of luck knockers keeping fingers crossed for a bfp for you xxx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*MissBabs* - I just saw a whole thread for Cryos Denmark pop up on 'discussions in last few minutes' on the home page: http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=344151.200 I just wondered whether you'd seen it? (I expect you probably have, but mentioning it just in case.) Although do please keep chatting on here too!


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## MissBabs

Thanks seaside! I've been lurking on that thread but have just revisited it    Someone else on there has just had their Cryos swimmers delivered today (ours have been delayed for some unknown reason    so fingers crossed they arrive tomorrow!) so it'll be good to have a cycle buddy!


How are you doing? X


Knockers - are you relaxing plenty?     X


How is everyone else doing? Xx


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## Syd72

Hi Knockers, thanks for asking.  I'm ok, af finished so really wanting to get the ball rolling on ivf now.  I can imagine you would be feeling a bit flat at this stage, when is otd?

MissBabs, hope your swimmers turn up soon!

I'm having a bit of a panic about going to OFU at the moment, not really sure what's brought it on.  I think it's because I'm so unclear on what happens next.  Last time I saw Mr Swanton he told me to just liaise with him over email once I decided what I wanted to do but now he's basically just pointed me in the direction of the treatment dates on the website via an email from his assistant and she's told me to start speaking to the clinic and to get their contact details from the paperwork I had from them.  Well I don't have any paperwork from them as the only person I've seen is Mr S...  Obviously I was able to find an email address for them online and I sent off a fairly long-winded email to them yesterday, I just want to confirm dates and understand what I have to do next.  I think there are various blood tests OH and I need to do, and can do in Hong Kong etc etc.  So now I'm questioning whether I should just go to Lister since I've had the initial consultation with them, especially if I'm no longer going to be dealing with Mr S as he was my sole reason for going to OFU.

Well, he wasn't my sole reason, I was also going to OFU for the long protocol whereas Lister want to do short so that's another dilemma, if I switch to Lister am I cutting down my chances by having the short protocol.

I feel like I've got this huge crushing decision just hanging over me, we will likely only do this once as OH is reluctant.  The only chance I might get at a second round is if we have any embryos to freeze but I don't think that is all that likely.  I'm just terrified of making the wrong decision and I don't have anyone to talk it over with, OH is hopeless when it comes to this and friends/family don't know we're going this route.

Sorry for the self-pitying email.  Hope everyone else is well.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - Just wanted to send a big hug. It frankly mystifies me how the admin/organising can often be the most frustrating part of this whole process, especially when it ought to be the easy bit!

I don't think I'd get too much of a downer on OFU just because of what you've said. I'd probably interpret it as your consultant, Mr Swanton, delegating what he views as pure admin to his colleagues that ought to deal with that aspect - i.e. his PA and the clinic admin staff. Yes, it sounds like his PA could've been more helpful, but presumably at least she won't be involved in delivering the treatment!

Maybe give it today and if you don't have a satisfactory response, chase them up? If they can't respond satisfactorily then maybe start to think about sacking them off, but I wouldn't just yet. You say you're worried about short protocol at the Lister cutting down your chances, so I think once you've basically made a decision about TX that felt right for you, then perhaps just stick with it?

ATM I'm just trying to forget that I've got this colposcopy on Thursday. Please everyone cross your fingers it's fine/negative (whatever the word is)!


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Seaside, I think I was just having a funny 5 minutes this morning I've calmed down now. Had a nice email from the OFU earlier, they've requested my notes from Mr S so we're moving forward. Just need to know their opening dates close to Christmas for oh to come and do his bit.

Everything crossed for you on Thursday, do you know how long it will take to get the results?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - There you go - all sorted! Sorry for my rambling rant, some of which I've deleted due to excessive dullness! It's just the prospect of sloppy admin gets right up my nose (given some less than satisfactory recent experiences I've had ...), however, the OFU sound very efficient.

I'm not sure about colposcopy results; receptionist told me usually 1-2 weeks, but can be up to 4 weeks(!), it basically depends what they do I think. [Stressed emoticon]


----------



## bthemax

Hi Ladies,

I am 45, I have a 3 year old and now trying for second.  Tried ivf, first cycle cancelled due to zero stimulation response.  Took DHEA (not mircronized though) and got 1 egg.  cycle cancelled due to egg being poor quality.  Clinic strongly recommend going to Donor Eggs.  They did not recomend further IVF likelihood of success is so slim.  Having trouble accepting no as the answer.  
Still trying naturally but now period is not behaving.  
Part of me says take more DHEA and keep trying naturally.  
Part of me is saying try another clinic that perhaps does more with older ladies like Create, Lister, ARG?
Part of me is saying - read the signs and just accept that we are lucky to have the technology to try DE, so get on with it.  
Any words of encouragement one or the other would be useful.  

Baby dust to one and all


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *bthemax * - I'm sorry to hear about your IVF cycle being cancelled. Can I ask how the clinic knew the one egg was poor quality? I'm wondering whether it didn't fertilise, or it arrested, or what they told you?

Different clinics definitely have very different views on what is 'worth' trying. Ultimately, I believe it has to be a decision for you alone. I can sympathise with you though; I have a naturally conceived 3 year old and my head just can't compute donor eggs (I've tried). Of course I'd have a MUCH better chance with DE and trying with OE might mean I'm a parent of one child only, but that's my choice.

There is no harm in arranging second opinion consultations with the clinics that you mention is there? Both Lister and Create seem sensible choices.

I've no experience of ARGC, but I know they are VERY expensive. Also, I don't think they're keen on treating women of 45-ish either, I could be wrong.

I've been doing treatment recently with Create. They're certainly not fazed by very low follicle numbers and are prepared to work with what you have, provided you're realistic about the low chances. Maybe you could discuss their 'natural modified' (very low stimulation) or even completely natural IVF cycles?

Whilst you're deciding what to do, if you haven't already, I'd have a read of "*It Starts with the Egg: How the Science of Egg Quality Can Help You Get Pregnant and Prevent Miscarriage*" - 25 Mar 2014 - by Rebecca Fett. See if there's anything you can add to DHEA to try to improve your egg quality, for example, ubiquinol. I doubt supplements are ever a waste of time, as even if you decide not to proceed with OE, you'll probably at least improve your health meanwhile. And we can all do with doing that.

Best wishes, Seaside x


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## Knockers71

Hi bthemax, I'm so sorry you had 2 cancelled cycles. That must be really hard 😥 I also have a biological child, so wanted to use my own eggs.  But if I did IVF again ( if this cycle fails, I'm currently in 2ww) I would go to donor eggs if I wanted another child. I'm kind of coming round to the idea now that we are a three person family, if this doesn't work we won't try again. But I'm further down the line than you, my child is 9. Like seaside says, get advice, but only you can make that decision. But keep trying naturally in the meantime, definitely. 
Seaside good luck with your colposcopy x 
Syd I'm meant to test on next Thursday x
Misbabs I'm resting loads! That's one thing I'm good at! Really want a bath though 😩 Not allowed to for a while yet.  Hope your swimmers arrive soon! 
I haven't felt any symptoms of egg implanting yet, so have no idea how it's going! X


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## TTCNK

Hi everyone, sorry for being quiet  - just life getting in the way and some thinking time.  It's good to read and catch up on all your experiences, I needed a bit of motivation   Knockers - such exciting news, I have my fingers crossed for you.  Seaside - hope all goes well with your procedure and you can get back on track with your IVF soon.

As for me, I have requested my file from the Lister, so have postponed any appointments I planned until I have that.  Hope to avoid further tests / scans if at all possible.    I will have my consultation with Create next week and I am also going to talk to the Center for Human Reproduction in New York to see if I can figure out what if anything they do differently to the Lister.    In the meantime I am trying naturally but taking Femara day 2 - 6 & using OPK's  this month to see what happens 

Take care all xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*TTCNK* - Wow! You may have been quiet on the thread, but sounds like you've been busy being proactive too! How are you talking to Center for Human Reproduction in NY? Are you visiting or skype? I'd be really interested to know what protocol they recommend, if you're able to update here? And also what Create say?

Who prescribed the Femara for you (sorry, I'm so nosy!)? Wishing you all the best with that, have you started taking it yet?

I've just noticed your first post on here re turning 46 in November. Do we wish you happy birthday yet? It'd be so nice to get a BFP as a birthday present wouldn't it!


----------



## bthemax

Hi Beside_the_seaside and Knockers71,

Thanks for the encouragement.  

Beside_the _seaside : In the second ivf 1 egg was retrieved and left overnight.  
I got a call very early saying it was immature and therefore not viable.
I was really upset and a bit frantic at the time and imagined that it needed more time to develop and they were going to 'throw it away'.
I never really got an exact explanation but the term'immature egg' seems to be a general term for poor quality and various types of defect.  In the USA apparently there is a process called in 'vitro-maturation' in which the egg can be given a bit longer if it looks promising, but apparently that is not authorized here. 

I think I am definitely going to get a second opinion and take the supplements - there must be a good egg there somewhere!  

I am taking a supplement called Cassanovum Boost and I am going to get some Fertinatal.
I just need to find a way to get my ovulation back on track.

Did anyone get Clomid to help on this issue?
I asked the clinic but they said Clomid is ok for younger women who have eggs - not so useful for ladies with low ovarian reserve.

hmmm

Baby dust


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi All

Sorry for the lack of posts having an extension built so been busy with the builders !
Still no sign of AF now day 34 and usually day 25-29 and didn't OV and have tested so defo not preggers😬
What day did you all get your AF after failed IVF ? 
Still have clomid in cupboard ready to take but acupuncturist says not to until I am in balance again but I'm thinking tick tock    
Thoughts ladies? 
Xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Highlandgirl *- I'm sorry to hear about late AF. Do you think it's possible that you did ovulate this cycle, but missed the LH surge? Will you do another pregnancy test if still no AF in a few days? Do you think delay's due to IVF - and the Prostap you had?

Re your acupuncturist saying don't take Clomid until you're 'in balance again'. I'm confused as to how he/she will know if/when you're 'in balance'? Do they mean wait for a few perfectly regular cycles then look back and say, OK, now I think you're 'in balance'? Hmm ... I know there's good evidence that acupuncture does improve fertility and also IVF outcomes, although perhaps not exactly how it works. I wouldn't say that means your acupuncturist should be directing your fertility treatment though. So I'd just smile politely and say you'd like to continue the acupuncture treatment, but you also want to crack on with trying to get pregnant!

I seem to remember you'd set yourself maybe 2 cycles of natural/Clomid TTC then another IVF? If that's so, I wouldn't think it's optimal to do an expensive IVF cycle straight off the back of a Clomid cycle (if Clomid doesn't work)? Personally I'd want to try Clomid asap. Then - if it doesn't work - rest one cycle (or TTC naturally) then maybe try IVF again. Even if you're not sure about doing more IVF, I can't see how waiting out cycles is going to help.

*bthemax* - I'm sorry to hear about your distressing experience of IVF. Was it the embryologist who called you after egg collection to say the egg was 'immature'? I get the impression embryologists always have a very limited amount of time to make calls/explain fully to patients. It's disappointing it sounds like you didn't have a review appointment with a consultant though, which you'd expect, free of charge, after a failed cycle.

I could be wrong, but I didn't think that whether one egg is mature/immature says very much about overall egg quality? It's true that immature eggs won't fertilise, but surely that doesn't mean everything else will be rubbish! If you read about ladies who have loads of eggs at collection, there's usually a certain percentage that are immature (and often the more eggs, the higher the %).

It's possible that with a different protocol, or a day or two extra of stimulation, the egg could have been mature by the time of collection. What _may _have happened, is that because the clinic knew you had very few follicles in that cycle, they were over-cautious about the follicle getting overripe (if that's a word) or the risk of ovulating prior to egg collection. So perhaps they gave you a trigger shot too early?

Seriously, I'd at least get some advice from another clinic that's comfortable dealing with patients with low AMH and/or low follicle numbers. I imagine that a clinic that is enthusiastic about natural cycle IVF ought to have the necessary experience of delivering IVF with only one follicle. And maybe try to get a copy of your file (or cycle notes) from the previous clinic, so you have the right info to pass on.

If you're interested in In Vitro Maturation (IVM) - it is offered in the UK. It's offered at Create IVF, for example: https://www.createhealth.org/fertility-treatments-services/fertility-treatments/natural-cycle-ivf-with-ivm

About Clomid - You'll see posts on this thread about the use of Clomid as the stimulation drug in IVF 'embryo banking' cycles, particularly at Serum, Athens. It sounds really interesting.

As regards what your clinic said about Clomid just being for younger women. Hmm. Perhaps that's true if used in it's traditional way, like say a prescription for a few months worth of Clomid, maybe with ultrasound scans in the first cycle to monitor response/ovulation, then timed intercourse. So in that sense, it's best kept for women with plenty of time to spare ... But as a one off try, why not? Although I think Femara/Letrozole is often preferred as an alternative, as it tends to give a better uterine lining in older women.

Where are you going to source the *Fertinatal *from? I'd be most grateful if you'd share, as it's something I'd really like to take myself, but just can't find it!

*Knockers* - I'm still tightly crossing my fingers for you, or for your battery-quality blastocysts, more to the point!

Waves to everyone else x

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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

Well AF arrived with a bang this morning - think it was all my moaning blah blah blah lol   etc 
Called the local newly found private scan lady at the local hospital and waiting for a call back tonight to book in for scan / bloods? tomorrow or Friday!
Beside - as you say I should  just get on with it so going to start Clomid 50mg tomorrow for 5 days then another scan etc on day 12 then hopefully there will be some follies there with a wee golden egg for us  
I am going to tell acupuncturist on Friday that's what I have decided and I am sure he will work with me on this so here's hoping xx
I only have enough Clomid for 2 rounds and I would have to possibly miss one in between as we will be on holiday if AF plays ball and I wouldn't be able to get a scan then if both of these don't work I will miss a cycle as you say Beside and then possibly have 1 last attempt at IVF but here's not get ahead of ourselves - I am really looking forward to seeing if / how the clomid works and it would a riot if instead of the £5.5k the IVF cost us and didn't work if the £3.20 per cycle plus scans clomid worked     xx


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## Knockers71

Hi all, highlandgirl I'm glad your period arrived at last, and hope you can get started and the clomid works. Out of interest, why do some of you take clomid, is it because you're not ovulating every month? 
Seaside I'm going mad with the wait, it's been a week now, just one more to go. I don't know how people do IVF again and again, it's so hard physically and emotionally. I was really tearful this morning on the school run and had to come home and sleep. 
Hope you're all ok x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Knockers

I totally felt the same on my TWW just try to keep busy mentally but if you need to then lie down and rest that's what I did 😘
I am trying clomid for the first time which seems a bit backwards after my tx but I feel I need to keep trying something?
The clomid works by helping you to ovulate with at least one egg hopefully - during my 8 months prior to tx I ovulated according to my OPK 6 times out of 8 so at least with the clomid I know I have a better chance? 
You take the pills from day 2 to 6.
You have a baseline scan day 2 or 3 mine is day 2 later today then on day 12 to see if the drug has responded then it's timed s!x when they tell you to which will be a lot of fun - not  
How are you today? Rooting for you xx


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## Syd72

Seaside, good luck today!


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## Knockers71

Ah I see highlandgirl, that makes sense, it's a good idea. I think I ovulate every month but who knows. I just don't know why I haven't been able to conceive for the past ten years when it was so easy with my son. 
I'm not feeling so tearful today but I'm so exhausted still, I haven't slept well since I started it all weeks ago. 
It's weird having no idea where I am in my cycle as well, what day I'm on etc. Usually my pmt symptoms, ovulation signs are so clear and it's all been overridden by the drugs. 
Good luck today seaside x


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## kittykatkins

Hi ladies. I really need to check in more often... I keep missing loads!
Any tips on increasing the lining?  Had my day 8 scan today. It's only. 3.8mm :-(


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## bthemax

Hi all,

Thanks so much you you encouraging words.
Beside_the_sea: I have bought Fertinatal from their website and had them shipped to a hotel where a  friend who is travelling to NY on business will collect. Contact me if you need help on this.


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

Beside - how are you today? 
I had my day 2 scan today - I have 4 follies on right ovary and same on left but 1 on the right is big and I need to send the results to my clinic to see if that was there before or not? 
The nurse seemed really positive so here's hoping! 
AND she has just treated a lady who is about to give birth at 56 WITH HER OWN EGGS yes you read that correctly so there is hope for us all    Will get more details at next scan xx
Knockers - how are you now? I know it's all a bit of a whirl the whole IVF journey but just go with the flow as you are officially pupo - pregnant until proven otherwise xx


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## Knockers71

Ah so that's what PUPO means! I've seen it on a few boards and wondered what it meant!
Highlandgirl That's great about your follicles, that's loads! And a great story about the 56 year old, wow! 
I'm not sure what's happening for me as I've had cramping today and pink watery loo paper after wiping (sorry if too much info) and tonight there have been a few red streaks. I really feel like my period is coming 😢 But it's only a week after transfer, surely it's too early for my period? 
Seaside I hope today went ok x
Waves to everyone else x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Knockers 

That can be implantation bleeding which happens around day 6 onwards after tx - just call your clinic to let them know and see what they say?
xx


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## Knockers71

Hi highlandgirl I emailed the clinic and they said sometimes women have a period at the beginning of the pregnancy, it's nothing to worry about. The bleeding is slightly heavier now, like the beginning of a period, too red I think for implantation bleeding. I just think it's all over now 😢


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## Syd72

Knockers don't give up hope yet, I've seen lots of people say they had bring red implantation bleeding.  Got everything crossed for you.


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## Blondie71

Which clinic has just treated a 56 year old with own eggs? They have to be frozen embryos poss 10 years old as no clinic would stim a woman that age just way too many risks attached


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## Knockers71

Thanks Syd. But this feels very much like a period and I know in my gut that it hasn't worked. 
As the embryos were so good, I'm wondering if I have a problem with implantation.


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## Blondie71

Don't panic as this is perfectly normal to have bleeds with ivf pregnancies, I bled from day of transfer until I gave birth (on and off of xourse) cramping is also common so it ain't over yet 😤


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd, Highlandgirl, Knockers* - thanks so much for the good wishes yesterday. I was pretty terrified by the time I got to the Colposcopy waiting room. Consultant was super-nice and seemed happy it's all fine, thank goodness. However, being asked to look at a TV screen with highly magnified colour image of own cervix, while consultant explained her findings is something I could've done without! She took a biopsy but said she's confident it'll come back clear, takes 2 - 4 weeks. So I'm going try another embryo banking IVF after next AF (early December).

*Knockers* - I'm waiting with baited breath to find what's going on with you - sending my best wishes. I can only imagine how stressful it must be to see a bit of spotting.

Hope it's reassuring to note what *Blondie71 *says about IVF pregnancies + bleeding? Also, if it helps at all, I had all sorts of bleeding/spotting with my daughter (natural conception). Pre-positive pregnancy test I had exactly the same "pink watery loo paper after wiping" and then some red and brown spots. When I read you'd had similar, I thought it sounded like a good sign. The timing (5 day transfer + 7 days) is the right sort of timescale for implantation bleeding isn't it?

When you say that it "feels like a period", do you mean that you've got pre-period type symptoms like stomach cramps, tearful mood, bloating, etc? Because that's EXACTLY how I've felt each time I've been pregnant (3 times now).

Hope you can trust in what your clinic says. Presumably they've got you on Progesterone support? Hang in there.

*Highlandgirl* - great to read your news! Great follicle numbers - and yes, wouldn't it be great if the £3.20 (plus scans) treatment was the one that did the trick!

Lovely to read about the woman about to give birth at 56 with OWN EGGS. Did you really mean _fifty-six_?!

I was curious about this too, *Blondie71*, but I think the clinician that *Highlandgirl* saw - if I'm not mistaken - is a sonographer at the local NHS hospital that she's seeing privately? I guess if the sonographer is working in the gynae/maternity field, it's possible the 56 year old lady wasn't having fertility treatment at all? She might have conceived naturally and the scans have been to monitor the progress of her pregnancy?

One thing the IVF consultant said to me was that women *can *conceive naturally into their late 40's and early 50's, but IVF hasn't been able to replicate that. I think the clinic's limit for conception leading to live birth has basically been 47, with one at 48 last year, but really not many.

*Blondie71* - you say "way too many risks attached" to stimming older women. I was wondering what sort of risks you meant? Is there anything apart from risks to the embryo (i.e. age-related chromosome abnormalities)?

*Kittykatkins*- good luck with your IVF, so you are day 9 today? I just scrolled back upthread to check: have you gone to Reprofit in Czech Republic? Best wishes for a positive outcome!

No tips on increasing lining from me, I'm afraid. Hopefully it will just thicken as your estrogen comes up, alongside the follicle growth? Which day do you expect to trigger / have egg collection? You've got a good few days yet perhaps?

Best of luck to everyone x


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone, seaside I'm so glad if went ok today, and you can get started again soon. The bleeding started off as watery pink but since yesterday evening it's been bright red blood like a light period. It's not heavy enough to flow and I don't need a pad but there's quite a bit of it. I had spotting too when I was pregnant with my son, but nothing  like this. But yes- bloated, tearful, cramping and headaches. Blondie did you have just spotting or actual blood like a light period? Thanks for the reassurance xx I'm on progesterone pessaries, 2 twice a day- very messy. I'm sure most comes out! Xx


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## kittykatkins

Try and stay positive *knockers*, I've read reports of people having all sorts of spotting and gone on to have bfp's

That's a good follicle count *highlandgirl*, when do you go for another scan?

Pleased it went ok for you today *Seaside*, exciting to have another banking on the horizon.
I've another scan tomorrow (day 10) then fly to Brno on Sunday. We were hoping for collection on Monday, but as of yesterday the follicles were still quite small, so I think it'll get pushed to Tuesday or Weds

Hi to everyone else x x x


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## Lily0750

Blondie71 said:


> Which clinic has just treated a 56 year old with own eggs? They have to be frozen embryos poss 10 years old as no clinic would stim a woman that age just way too many risks attached


Hi Blodie,

I have assumed 56 years old had natural pregnancy.


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## MissBabs

Hello ladies, sorry I've been awol for the last few days but I have been trying to read & catch up with what you've all been up to!


Seaside - glad to hear your procedure went well & you're on track for a Dec cycle. When can you get going?


Knockers - sending you love & positivity xx


Highlandgirl - great news about your follies, hope scan goes well. 56 with own eggs Wowser, there's hope for us all then!


AFM, swimmers arrived last Tuesday, three insems done on Tues, Weds and Thurs evenings to coincide with my peak smiley which came on Thurs morning. No expectations this cycle (in our minds this was a trial run to practice the insem procedure) so thinking about whether to go for Mot10 or 20 next cycle. Will have to do some more reading I think.


Someone asked what supplements I'm taking (sorry I can't remember who asked) - I'm literally not taking anything other than folic acid daily at this point, I've just started reading about ubiquinol tho so might invest in some additional things for future cycles. Would love everyone's advice re this.


Love to all xx


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## Blondie71

Maybe it was a natural pregnancy at 56 but a clinic in UK or even overseas would not even attempt to stim a woman after 47 due to adverse health effects on a woman of that age, ups the risk of cancer and probability of chromosome problems is huge.

Knockers I had bright red bleeding for couples of days and brown thought for sure it was over too but got used to the bleeds in pregnancy


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## Beside_the_seaside

*MissBabs* - Fingers crossed for your 2ww now that you've done those insems - exciting! I really hope it works out for you. If it turns out that you did need to go for it again, could you offset the additional cost of the MOT10/MOT20 by doing fewer insems, even 2 instead of 3? Had you considered having a mid-cycle scan (a bit like Highlandgirl is doing) to track the dominant follicle? You can find scan clinics not attached to IVF units that'll scan you for <£100.

*Knockers* - hope the spotting is settling down?

*Blondie71* - Oh I think I see what you're getting at now. However, please don't conflate a very low chance of success with whether it's 'safe' to try. I know you're a fair bit younger than me (lucky you) but I'll be heading for the 'after 47' ball park come the back end of 2017. So out of empathy / solidarity with any silent lurkers who may be reading, I have to take issue with your comment that "_a clinic in UK or even overseas would not even attempt to stim a woman after 47 ..._" - you're mistaken on this particular point. 
There are a few clinics (maybe not many, but they are out there) that will stim at least up to 50th birthday. 
Even myself, I've spoken face-to-face with consultants in two separate UK treatment settings, who've achieved live births with mild stims at 48, and with another setting by email who had a live birth from stims at 49. It's not like I've spoken to every clinic in the world, quite obviously, although at times it's felt like it.


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## MissBabs

Thanks seaside    Yes, I think that's exactly what we're going to, less insems with Mot10 or higher. We've been looking at the prices this morning to see what we can stretch to, bearing in mind we'll likely need quite a few attempts!


We've not thought about mid cycle scans, would that be to nail down exactly what's happening ovulation wise? Honestly I feel like a total novice next to everyone else   xx


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## Knockers71

Hi all good luck misbabs with your 2ww! 
Kittykatkins have a good journey and good luck! I've only just come back from Czech Republic. 
Blondie thanks for the reassurance, hopefully this bleeding will stop soon. I wouldn't call it spotting seaside it's pretty much a period, I'm having to wear a pad. I think it's dying down today so hopefully it will just be 2 or 3 days of it. It doesn't feel like I can possibly be pregnant with this much blood though, but I guess I won't know for sure until Thursday. I'm going mad with the emotions it's causing, and physically I'm really ill with the ME. 
Just a few more days to go. Hope you're all ok xx


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## Blondie71

Haha beside the sea not so young anymore  (45) 😯but yes younger at conception so I get your point, that's great clinics are willing to stim you to 50 must be fairly new poss mild ivf has opened up more avenues👍

My apologies if don't mean to rain on anybody's parade and i've always thought ivf to be an incredibly thing for every woman but I suppose cut offs were put in place due to taking the health of the average woman at that age and blood pressure, heart problems, cancer stats all rise with ageing so that has to be taken into account in a clinic setting but there will always be healthier women to buck the trend in those age groups!

Again didn't mean to upset the apple cart and very excited to see everybody succeed, must post a link that will make your day x


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## Blondie71

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50

Pretty inspiring stuff here!!!!

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## Knockers71

Hi I'm a bit worried about this bleeding, it's actually more than my normal periods as they're quite light now, it's not dying down and I've had to wear pads for 3 days now. I don't understand where it's coming from as it's too early for a period- it started a week after transfer. This is the annoying thing about having a clinic abroad, I can't just phone someone or go somewhere for an appointment. I got an email saying not to worry and lots of women have periods at the beginning of their pregnancy, but I thought they may suggest increasing the progesterone or something.


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## Blondie71

There is a huge thread on bleeding here that might help i'll try to get a link for you but I still think it's positive as the progesterone would normally stop bleeding when no implantation has occurred 😕


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## Agaamh

@Knockers
why you don't go to check hcg and progesteron? If you had two embryos transferred, maybe one managed to implant and another not and therefore this bleeding?or an hematoma occured after IVF and this can be also a cause for the bleeding as well.
I would go for the blood check.
Good Luck!X


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## Blondie71

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=322494.msg5824654#msg5824654

As you can see a huge thread and that's only part 1, twin pregnancies are even more prone hth ☺


----------



## Knockers71

Thank you Blondie for the link I'll have a look xx
Agaamh I'm due to do a test on Thursday, I could do hcg and progesterone before that? 
Thanks girls xx


----------



## kittykatkins

*MissBabs* here's a link to a thread about supplements
http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=294994.0
There's a lot of info on there!
Can I ask what you used to tell you when to send the swimmers in?

AFM confirmed I've one lonely follicle, trigger tonight, collection very early Weds morning, let's hope there's a golden egg in there.


----------



## MissBabs

Hi kittykatkins 
Thanks for the link, holey moley there are a LOT of supplements on that list    They'd cost me more per month than the swimmers!


I've been using clearblue dual hormone opk's for a few months, my periods are regular and to be honest I usually feel the egg release so I'm pretty sure I'm ovulating each month. I'm not currently using BBT to track temp drop after ovulation but will be doing so from next cycle. We're trying not to put too much pressure on ourselves so I've not really investigated any more supplements or scans/tests etc. We may do in time but for now we're seeing how things go.


Fingers crossed for your golden egg!    Xx


----------



## Knockers71

Good luck kittykatins xx


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## Blondie71

Anything symptom wise yet knockers71??😉 i'm sure you've found loads 😅


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## Knockers71

Hi blondie, the bleeding is finally stopping now, it was 3-4 days in all. I think it was my period, just early, and it's failed but I guess I won't know for sure until test day on Thursday. I don't have any other symptoms , my boobs aren't painful anymore, I'm not weeing a lot anymore. I've been really sad and I'm not sleeping well, I have ME and I've been really ill. I'm not finding this very easy at all 😢


----------



## Syd72

Knockers I'm rooting for you, will keep looking for the update. I believe at these early stages symptoms do come and go so you're not out yet. Xx


----------



## Blondie71

Definitely not out yet!!! Women run the gauntlet of symptoms incl absolutely none at all so wouldn't panic yet, If you can access a hcg blood test def do it as it will let you know if implantation attempted in the event of a negative (NO  ) x


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## Knockers71

Hi I don't know where I'd get an hcg test, I asked my gp because of the bleeding but he said they only do them to monitor eptopic pregnancies. I guess I'd have to find a private clinic somewhere. I don't actually have any money left for more tests, we spent all our money on the Ivf! It's pay day on Friday though, would hcg still be showing in the blood then?


----------



## MissBabs

Knockers - still hoping for a bfp for you      xx


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi knockers - thinking of you xx hoping you get a BFP - is your blood test Thursday?
I have finished my clomid yesterday have to DTD from Friday and get my next scan on Monday to see if any further movement on the follies that were there last week - will keep you posted after Monday scan 🙏


----------



## Knockers71

Thanks highlandgirl Syd and misbabs. I'm doing a home test on Thursday. Good luck with your follies highlandgirl xx


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## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

I have finished my clomid and now awaiting the smiley face on my digital clear blue but will start DTD from Saturday - day 11. I feel bloated and have a dull ache in the ovaries - is this normal ? Feels the same as when I was on my IVF TX?
I have a scan on Monday but just a bit scared to DTD as feel it might be sore - sorry TMI x also if I have any more than 1 follies developing - eek! 
Any advice / thoughts ? 
Thanks ladies xx


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## Blondie71

Hiya knockers yes hcg tests are usually done in private hospitals or clinics, mine was hcg and progesterone together and was £80 so hcg probably £50 but depends on area you live 😕 i'm crossing everything for you ☺ are you doing a digital test?

Highland girl hope you catch an egg or two   I would say very normal to have pain with any ovarian stimulation obviously if very severe vomiting etc seek help x


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## kittykatkins

Not good news I'm afraid, follicle empty, so no egg to collect today :-( back to the drawing board....

*Highlandgirl* the ache is normal as the follicles get bigger. Good luck this weekend. Which clear blue are you using. I'm going to try one next month , there looks to be one which monitors 2 hormones and gives a 4 day window, and another one which monitors LH only and gives a 2 day window. It's grasping at straws, but at least it feels like I'm still moving forward.

Everything xed for you *knockers* on Thursday


----------



## Knockers71

Hi all, oh kittykatkins I'm so sorry 😢 This journey is so painful. 
Yes blondie I bought a two pack of clear blue , £12 😳
Highlandgirl I ache every month when I ovulate, quite painful sometimes. Pretty common I think x


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## highlandgirl

Sorry to hear your news kitty ;( I use the digital clear blue opk kit which cost about £100 amazon cheapest and you buy stick packs on top - it's the best but a bit more of an investment ! 
Blonde & knockers thanks for you replies - just feel a bit sore dull ache so hoping it's all a good sign - we shall see on Monday !
Knockers good luck tomorrow everything crossed for you xx
Any one else out there give us your updates - let's keep the thread alive! Xx


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## MissBabs

Evening all


Oh kittykatkins, so sorry to read your news    What's your next plan of action? Are you ready to think about it yet? Re opk's, I used the CB dual hormone ones this month (the ones that track two hormones and give you a four day window) and I found them a LOT better than the non-digital ones. I wouldn't go back to the others now xx


Knockers -    


Highlandgirl - I have pains every month when I'm ovulating too, more of a sharp pain at about the time I'm due to release the egg (I think it's got a proper medical name but I can't remember it ha!) so I'd say it's normal & nothing to worry about. Good luck for Monday!


----------



## Syd72

So sorry kitty.


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## Knockers71

Negative 😢
I kind of knew it would be but I was still hoping. I wish I knew why. Are my eggs all abnormal now or was it the implantation? Everything went so well at first. This is it for us now as there's no more money, and I'm 46 in two months and that was always a mental cut off point for me xx


----------



## Syd72

I'm so very sorry Knockers.


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## MissBabs

Knockers    so disappointed for you xxx


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## highlandgirl

Thanks miss babs x
Knockers - I am so sorry to hear yours news  I was the same I had 2 top grade put back on my tx and they said it would have been my egg quality but it could have been implantation - we will never know I'm afraid xx 
I thought I would cut off at 46 which was in sept but I am going to keep going if this clomid cycle doesn't work with either natural or another another clomid cycle and then maybe one last IVF x 
All quiet from the rest of you ladies - how are we all? 😘


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## Agaamh

@knockers
I am sorry to hear it 
In my treatments I always had a high grade quality embryos but it does not mean anything.
My doctor in BE was quite direct to me. he explained that this quality is assessed based on the visual aspects such as observing and grading the appearance of an embryo. Even the high quality one (that managed until 5 day) can be chromosonally abnormal and therefore no implantation. The most effective method to determine which embryo is chromosomally normal, is only pdg. This is expensive, and therefore i did not let it do.
The doctor also told to get pregnant and have a healthy child via IVF for the women older than 43 is like a win in the lottery. The same chance as trying naturally.
I will go for the next treatment as we still have money and my insurance covers medical products. mentally I am preparing myself that it will be again nothing. ...I still hope that I will hit the jackpot
Xx


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## estella

So sorry Kitty and Knockers xxx


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## Blondie71

Aww knockers I am sorry to hear this   it's a devastating blow given the enormous investment physically, mentally and let's not even go near financial 😯 did your clinic check your progesterone at all? It does sound like progesterone given the bleeding and wonder if clomid and progesterone which you'd get on NHS (possibly?) might be an option for you? Thinking of you and you too kitty x


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## Blondie71

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=bookmarks;sa=add;topic=283000;ffb514f5=02d1f9b208abbf2f0198d38f08172a42

Just posting this link as phenomenonal info at your fingertips here that would take hours of searching, this helped me massively throughout the setbacks x


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## highlandgirl

Hi Blondie 
I can't open the link?
Also is anyone managing to work the new format? I'm finding it very frustrating!
X


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## kittykatkins

So sorry *Knockers*, it's such a horrible journey we're all on.

Thanks girls for the clear blue info. *Highlandgirl*, who is coordinating your clomid cycle? I'm wondering if this might be a way to go, rather than trying completely natural?

*Blondie* I can't open the link either.

*Highlandgirl* my layout changed last week, but it's gone back to normal now. I think it went into mobile mode and I switched back to PC, but I'm not sure how I did it!


----------



## Smithysmith72

Good morning ladies, fascinating stuff reading all your feeds. 

I am a first timer on IVF, I am 44, 45 next June and following a short protocol OE cycle with 450 iu Menopur accompanied by 0.3ml Suprecur. I started my injections last Tuesday evening so only have two more days to go before the first PS scan which I am crossing everything for a miracle. 

We decided to take this long and traumatic journey after being messed around for over 2 years on the NHS only to be told that our best option was to go through them on DE cycle. 
The joke of it is they neglected to tell us about the cut off age date until 6 months after my lap was carried out and they just forgot about me!! By this time I was already 43 so very disappointed in the NHS.  

We spoke to two clinics but have gone with CARE in Tunbridge Wells as we liked Dr Read. 

Feeling very nervous about what will happen as a lot of ladies have already mentioned LOTS of negativity everywhere you read, so lovely to hear some success stories. 

Good luck to you all and hope we all get blessed with the best Christmas ever, would be so amazing to have a positive result as a Christmas pressie!! 

Sending lots of love and positivity out there to you all, I've heard it works wonders 😊 xxxxxx


----------



## Blondie71

Sorry girls for some reason the link only goes to my bookmark but if you want to read that and also loads more really valuable information do a search for a member called agate and the links are in her siggy, the one I posted was the learning from a failed cycle about what could have happened and where next etc x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers*: I've just seen your news about your BFN.  I'm so sorry, I feel really disappointed for you. And slightly baffled, as like you say, it had all looked so promising. You must be devastated.

The question you were wondering "are my eggs all abnormal now or was it the implantation?" ... that must be the million dollar question we all ask ourselves after a BFN. I just don't know how anyone could say for sure. Conversations I've had recently with IVF consultant & embryologist suggest that probably the large majority of eggs will be abnormal, but they won't ALL be abnormal. The best and most cost effective test for implantation issues I've come across is the biopsy they do at Coventry Hospital for £360: 
https://www.mededcoventry.com/Research_and_Development/Facilities/Implantation%20Clinic%20leaflet.pdf

I'm also sorry your ME is flaring up, feeling so poorly must make this even harder to deal with. I do hope you find a way to continue TTC, or if not, then at least find some peace with not trying. (Personally, I've always been useless with my self-imposed deadlines for stopping TTC ....)

*Kittykatkins* - I'm sorry to hear about your BFN too. About the one empty follicle - I think that's a typical risk with a mild protocol isn't it? If they are only aiming for one follicle then as far as I understand it's quite common not to get anything from it - doesn't mean it won't work the next time. You say you're back to the drawing board, how's it looking? Any thoughts as to what you're doing next?

*Highlandgirl* - Were you having another scan today? Hope this Clomid cycle's going well?

*Bthemax* - don't know if you're still around? I sent you a message.

*Smithysmith72* - wishing you all the best of luck with your IVF cycle. Fingers crossed for your first scan - although I feel a bit stupid, I've no idea what a "PS scan" is? Does that mean you'll have done 8-9 days of Menopur injections before they scan you?

I'm in limbo land waiting for my next AF. I'm so hoping that AF has the courtesy to hold off a while;at least until Friday 2 December. I'd like to try my embryo banking cycle #3 starting on my next day 5, BUT if AF comes too early it will mean missing a pile of Christmas stuff ... I know that sounds terribly trivial, but it seems there's often precious little to look forward to, amidst the TTC angst.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## Knockers71

Thanks everyone. I've been ok actually, exhausted obviously but not as sad as I thought I'd be. I've been sad about not being able to pregnant for so many years that this just feels like a continuation of that. My husband is taking it much worse. I've no idea what's going on with my body now as I've started bleeding again on Saturday, I only stopped what I thought was a period last Monday. This is lighter and more like the beginning or end of a period, and my boobs are sore again. I've no idea where I am in my cycle!
I was thinking of trying naturally for the next few months but I've no idea when I'm going to ovulate next. I thought you couldn't get progesterone and clomid on the NHS? 
Nicola x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers* - Yes, I know all too well about being sad for years at not getting pregnant! I guess many others on here do too. Just because the feeling's not new, doesn't mean it's not also completely rubbish. You're perfectly entitled to feel disappointed about the IVF, please take care of yourself.

Could you have a review consultation with Gennet, free of charge (by skype or phone)? Could you ask them about the bleeding as well as future options?

I do hope your cycle settles down quickly, at least. I just thought I'd mention: I've had two very low stimulation IVF cycles so far where the intention was never to do a transfer, but instead to freeze any resultant embryo(s). In both cases I started bleeding on the 12th day after the egg collection (so if you say egg collection is day zero, then 11 clear days, then bleeding started on the 12th day). I was freaked out as this made for very short cycles (around 23 days), but consultant said it's quite normal to bleed 10-14 days after egg collection. Something about how when they aspirate the follicles they also 'accidentally' remove some of the cells that would otherwise generate progesterone / retain lining in luteal phase.

It struck me that if you had a bleed at 7 days post 5 day transfer, that's a similar type of timescale? So maybe not so unusual? It perhaps also suggests that there's no reason to take progesterone in a normal trying naturally cycle? (I guess, at least unless you knew you had particularly short cycles or luteal phase?)

Having said that, once I realised I'd fallen pregnant naturally with my daughter I went to my GP (at about 5 weeks pregnant) and said the IVF protocol I'd been given previously (although I'd never done IVF at that stage) had suggested progesterone support, and what did they think. GP put me on progesterone until 12 weeks - perhaps it may have helped, as I had lots of episodes of bleeding throughout that pregnancy. (I vaguely remember the local NHS hospital was running a progesterone trial at the time, so maybe that also influenced the GP, I don't know.) So maybe you could do the same, now having the evidence of your IVF protocol?

I'm trying to remember how *Highlandgirl *was prescribed Clomid. Was it through the IVF clinic that *Highlandgirl * cycled with? Even if you didn't have a post-cycle consultation with your clinic, could you perhaps ask your IVF co-ordinator to arrange a private prescription for you? Clomid, or the alternative (which I'd prefer, personally) of Femara/Letrazole is then quite cheap to buy.

Anyway, best wishes with everything.

Waves to everyone else.

Clinging on here, willing AF _not _to turn up until about the weekend!


----------



## miamiamo

Knockers71 - don't give up. Keep my fingers and toes crossed, and  wish you all the luck in the world on your journey xx


----------



## highlandgirl

Hello ladies 

How are we all? 
I am on day 17 on my first clomid cycle - for those who haven't read the previous posts I took clomid 50mg day 2 - 6 and had scans on day 2 / 13 / 15 of this cycle.
I had 5 follies day 2 / 4 day 13 and still 4 but 3 dominant ones on day 15. 
No OV yet using clear blue digital opk and I have a progesterone blood test booked for both day 21 and 23 to check if I do OV.
My clinic who prescribed the clomid are tracking everything and have said because my last cycle was so long - 33 days ( only first true cycle after failed IVF tx I am usually between 25 - 29 days ) I won't OV until at least today so I am now pos in the morning on the digital and then at teatime on the clear blue digital throw away opk just to check!
Poor DH is knackered as I thought we had to go for DTD from day 11   EEK!
I can feel the usual OV grumbling but wish they would just pop!
Zx


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Highlandgirl *- great to hear that it sounds like your Clomid cycle is going really well so far. Will you have another scan now or is that it for scans?

Also, when you say you have been DTD since day 11 - has that been every day? Hopefully this cycle will be your BFP, but if you need to try this again, I would've thought you could DTD every other day from say day 10 or 11 until smiley face day, then do it that day and next. I think ideally you want to hit the day of ovulation and ovulation -1 day. When I tried cycle monitoring (turned out it would always have been pointless in my case due to DP's antisperm antibodies) the sonographer said to resist the temptation to do every day across the whole 'window' as it lowers sperm count, she said EOD was ideal.

*Knockers* - are you still around? Hope you're OK?

How's everyone else - it's unusually quiet on here!

I've just had AF and am worried it's been a bit too short and light. I suppose my periods have been getting lighter over the years, but this was a bit troubling. Does anyone else have light periods - is it a concern?

So I'm waiting a little nervously for my scan tomorrow to see whether I can start another 'natural modified' IVF.


----------



## Syd72

My periods are probably lighter than they used to be seaside, couple of fairly heavy days, one light day and done. I still seem to be ovulating regularly though. Good luck with the scan.

Highland, how are you getting on?


----------



## Agaamh

I have a problem. I did a blood check on the 3 day of my cycle. My estradiol level is over 200 (ng/L) and FSH only 2,7 (U/L) LH 3,7 (U/L)
Before the IVF in September, the levels were normal (estradiol 80 and FSH around 8. And this cycle I was supposed to start the EPP.
I will contact my clinic to get instructions. However, I am very nervous about it  
Have you had such a similar issue with your hormons levels?


----------



## Knockers71

Hi everyone yes I'm still here, feeling very sad today. I don't have any money to go again, but Gynem do have my husbands swimmers still for a year, so there's an option there. I'll find out if they do free after consultations, that's a good idea. 
Beside, My periods have been light since having my son at 36, they used to be much heavier before. I've no idea if that's bad thing or not. Agaamh I don't  know much about hormone levels, sorry. 
I've still no idea where I am in my cycle, I had some spotting last weekend and painful boobs, then it stopped and now I'm spotting again and my boobs are less painful. I don't know when I'll ovulate next or have a other period. I've put on loads of weight over this month which I'm really sad about 😢
Hope you're all ok x


----------



## MissBabs

Oh knockers I'm so sad for you honey. I haven't anything to say that will make you feel any better but wanted to say I'm thinking of you and sending you a massive cuddle   It's such a knock when you get a bfn after all the hard work so please make sure you take plenty of rest and be kind to yourself. Xx


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

Sorry for the lack of posts just finishing off an extension to the house so been a bit of a busy bee 
I am on day 21 and went for a day 21 progesterone test today however given the fact that after my last scan which was last wed the clinic didn't think I would OV until Friday I think I might have to do a day 23 and possibly a day 26 test too! However I am not sure if any of this will matter as I am getting pre AF signs of brown discharge sorry if tmi everyone but not sure if there is a shortened version of that  
I am all over the place though as I am only day 21 and pre IVF my earliest AF for months was day 25 and the last 2 post IVF cycles have been 33 and 35 days long     
I read that sometimes Clomid can shorten the cycle so maybe that is what has happened  
Beside - we were DTD every other day from day 11 to day 18   
Knockers - keep sane and keep busy but try to look after yourself we all understand how you are feeling xx
Syd - glad to hear you are still ok please  let us know where you decide to do your tx 

I am not sure what to do next - I feel I want to give my body a chance to rectify itself as if I haven't OV with the clomid this cycle that will have been 2 cycles with no OV since the IVF cycle!
I also don't want to waste time either but I feel I need to have a couple of natural then maybe a last shot at IVF I have also put on weight which is not helping xx

It has been unusually quiet I see - let me know how you all are out there? I started this thread to support all the ladies out there in this situation and I am so grateful to those who have taken the time to contribute so stay with us and post your updates however short 
Xx


----------



## kittykatkins

Hi everyone, hope you're all keeping well.

*BesideTheSea* Af has been light for me since starting IVF, however this time it seems to be back to normal, but I did use caster oil during this cycle which might be why?

*Highlandgirl* I believe OV can cause spotting, and of course implantation. Maybe that's what discharge is?

Following my cancelled IVF, I'm not sure what to do next, but think it might be time for the jump to de. In the meantime though it's back to natural ttc... You never know we may have a Xmas miracle! Doesn't look good this month, I travel a lot with work and am away days 13-17 of this cycle


----------



## Knockers71

Hello just checking in, I've had a sad day today. I thought I was ok then I got locked out and got hysterically upset. I can't seem to cope with extra stress. We want to try naturally for the next few months but I have no idea where I am in my cycle, I've had loads of spotting since the period a week after transfer. Is this normal? I guess it takes ages for your cycle to calm down, maybe that's what you're experiencing highlandgirl? 
I put on weight too, half a stone on top of the half stone that crept on over summer. 
I guess a few of us are trying naturally now! 
Nicola x


----------



## Syd72

Hi ladies, hope everyone is ok. Knockers, sorry you've had an awful day.

Highland, I decided to go with long protocol and Oxford. We have our initial appointment right before Christmas when I'll be approx cd 13 so hope to start the following week on day 21. Having said that I'm currently in the tww and experiencing a few things identical to my two bfp months although I think I may just be being paranoid.


----------



## highlandgirl

AF has arrived


----------



## kittykatkins

Boo *highlandgirl*. Did you get a clear blue smiley face at all this cycle?


----------



## esj

Hi All. Ive been laying low on this thread but reading intermittently. Sorry for those of you who have had a testing time of late. I've had a lot of ups and downs too since embarking on this 3 cycle package of natural modified ivf, mainly an initial delay related my cycle being crazy, test results from GP late and a cancelled cycle. Have however got two grade one frosties, now just waiting to start the final cycle where I would love to get at least another good one. Hoping for AF any day now so we can at least collect before Christmas. If we are successful then the big dilemma is whether to have a fresh+frozen transfer which will mean I am in the 2ww over Christmas/New Year then into January which is my busiest time of the year at work. The consultant said its not a problem to do all frozen and wait until February when my work situation is calmer and I will hopefully be more relaxed. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? At this point I dont even have a fresh embryo so I guess I am jumping the gun! Just dont want to make any decision that will be detrimental to success.
thinking of you all.


----------



## kittykatkins

Hi *esj*, if it were me the heart would say December, but the head would say February! The benifits of waiting till February are 1. you'll have no IVF meds in your system 2. You'll have less work related stress 3. You can have a little tipple over Xmas! Benifit of Dec - it's sooner! Not sure that this helps  x


----------



## esj

Thanks for your reply * kittykatkins* You are reading my mind on all counts! I will probably wait until Feb and try to be patient. My main concern is if all frozen is likely to be less successful than fresh+frozen. The consultant didn't seem to think it would make much difference. x


----------



## Syd72

Highland I'm sorry about AF, did you get the blood tests done?


----------



## Wez

I'm coming out of my lurking corner...so Hello 

Following a couple of wasted years being told I'm too old/fat for a sterilisation reversal then being advised to go for IVF to RVI...then basically said no go away AMH too low and Bf's sperm sample not looking the best I sat and sulked.

I stopped sulking and we are now doing the 3 cycle package with Create in Birmingham....today I went for an egg collection, should have been 3, only collected one.
Lab man phoned when I was travelling home to say they had cleaned the cells up from around it, it was definetly an egg but everso slightly immature, would be leaving her overnight to see if she would mature and if matured any by tomorrow then my partner would join her in the dish via ICSI.

Living so far away from Birmingham it has been a very exhausting time, period lasted forever, follicles took an eternity to grow, had to have endless bloods n scans and even stayed down in a hotel for a week pumping large doses of Gonal F into myself, had the dry powder injection x 4 (begins with C, cant remember) then had the large trigger injection 35 hrs prior to this morning.  On the upside the bf's sample was brilliant with loads of healthy swimmers.

One..... how disappointing after all those drugs and miles driven......and it has been given 50/50 chance only of growing 

Dr D is suggesting we let nature take its course for next cycle and not have Gonal F just the injection to keep it all in place then the trigger, will see what happens with the egg in the lab over night .

Suppose I should introduce myself after all this time lurking, I have had 2 children one in 94 and the other 95, got sterilised thanks to gym loving testerone fuelled idiot of an ex hubby who insisted I had the op as he would feel less of a man, the fact I may feel like a bag of tatties was irrelevant I suppose.  Left him after 19 yrs met my b/f and here we are TTC (that is the only abbreviation I know lol) he is 27 and I have just turned 46 this month


----------



## Wez

Oh wow, it matured and ICSI was performed, now we wait and see if it divides


----------



## Knockers71

Good luck Wez, it sounds like you have had quite a journey! 
Nicola x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Hi ladies - I've been away from the thread for a while (TTC fatigue?) and now it's difficult to catch/keep up, but will do my best!

*Wez* - welcome to the thread! Must be lovely to have two big grown up 'children' and now to have this chance of going round again. Glad you came through what must've been an awful situation breaking up with your "idiot of an ex" (to borrow your words).

Very interested to hear you are doing the 3 cycle package at Create, at (only just) 46 years young. I'm doing the same, although sadly for me, at just over a year older than you. I've been having some of my scans in Birmingham, and then the remaining scans, plus consultations/egg collections at St Paul's in London. It helps my domestics that they've been able to offer me that flexibility: DP works in London sometimes, although we don't live particularly near to either clinic, so I hear you on the total nightmare of travelling.

I've done the Gonal F plus Cetrotide (the powder injection) protocol too. I'm currently mid-way through my third cycle, so we'll see how egg collection goes. I'm really nervous - about the outcome, not about actually going through the treatment, which I now find to be boring/mildly inconvenient rather than anything else - oh apart from ruinously expensive of course.

I think Dr D at Birmingham is really nice (as is the other doctor there). If you have reservations about doing a fully natural cycle next time, ask Dr D about using Tamoxifen. There are several ladies on FF that have done mild stimulation IVF cycles using Clomid tablets as the follicle stimulation, and the way the Clomid works means that you don't need any Cetrotide (or similar) to keep your LH low. E.g. see the posts of *Flyby *earlier on this thread: she had a baby by IVF with Clomid and embryo banking (well, hers were actually frozen at day 5 blastocyst stage, but same basic principle). Dr D told me he's currently writing up his results of his study in using Tamoxifen for IVF - it works in a similar way to Clomid. Might be worth talking to him about it?

*Knockers* - I'm sorry you're feeling low. I guess it's part and parcel of having got almost/nearly there with your Gynem IVF cycle, as everything had looked so brilliant up until AF. I think some degree of bloating and putting on weight is par for the course with injectables, just one more way for fertility struggles to p*** us all off!

*Highlandgirl* - boo that AF put in an unwelcome appearance. Chin up chick! I think younger women being prescribed Clomid are given about 6 months worth? Not that I think you're planning to try 6 months of it before returning to IVF, but just saying in the hope you won't be too despondent that it didn't work the first time - keep going!

*ESJ* - Really well done for getting top grade embryo from your second natural modified IVF cycle! I'm sorry, I totally missed the fact that you'd even started cycle #2. 
May I ask what grading/number of cells your frozen embryos are? Presumably they are grade 1, but what number of cells do they have: 8, 7 or 6 cells? I'm trying to understand more about how it all works.
Also - if you are having cycle #3 in Feb, could you not have a fresh transfer with the one/two embryos from that cycle, then if not pregnant, do an FET of the two frozen embryos currently in storage? Or are you only entitled to one transfer in the 3 cycle package? I haven't looked into that aspect myself yet, although I need to.

*Smithysmith72* - I've just noticed you started a short protocol with Menopur on 22 November, at Care Tunbridge Wells. I'm assuming you must've had egg collection by now - how did that go? When is your OTD - I'm thinking it's perhaps sometime in w/c 19 December? A BFP would be the most marvellous Christmas present ever, wouldn't it! Wishing you all the best with it - hoping to read your update soon!

*kittykatkins* - again, I think I must've missed (or forgotten) your update about your recent IVF being cancelled. I'm sorry to read that. What happened? FX for your trying naturally. Do you have a contingency plan for how long to try naturally, or what you might do next?

*MissBabs*, *Agaamh *- hope all OK with each of you?

Hope everyone else is OK and apologies to anyone I've missed for now.

Like I say, I've started my embryo banking cycle #3 at Create. I'm nervously crossing my fingers for egg collection and the nail-biting days following that. I'll let you know how I get on.


----------



## Syd72

Hi everyone, quick update from me. AF started today so should be starting long protocol with Oxford on New Year's Eve which will be day 21. I hadn't realised until today that deep down, I didn't think it would come to this. Feeling a bit terrified, mostly about the fact we're only trying once (unless I manage to bank a frozen embryo) so this is it,  now or never...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - ... well lets hope it's *NOW!* Your apprehension is completely understandable, but please remember you've made a carefully considered decision to go with the long protocol at Oxford and you have great AMH, so you've a very good chance of collecting lots of eggs and having several good quality blastocysts to play with. And New Year's Eve seems a portentous day to start down regging too, somehow. Hope you have a lovely, relaxing Christmas; keep on trying to eat lots of protein (and not too many carbs) and take care of yourself. x


----------



## Syd72

Thanks seaside. Everything crossed for you this cycle, any idea when they will be doing ec?


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## Syd72

I've had a bit of a spanner in the works this morning.  I just had a feeling that I may have been talking at cross purposes with OFU and that we weren't really understanding each other on timings.  Turned out I was right.  I finally got put through to someone who said there is no way I can fit a long protocol in between now and my return to Hong Kong at the end of January, I would need to be here til mid-February which just isn't an option.  I'm therefore back to short protocol and feeling very nervous about it as I'd gotten used to the idea of long...  I think I'm going to stick with Oxford rather than Lister but my head is a bit all over the place again.  Possibly not helped by the fact I'm at work after getting off an overnight flights with practically no sleep...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - it must be frustrating to have had the confusion over dates etc, however, I'm sure you'll be fine on short protocol. You're confident in the clinic and you just have to do what works with your travel/work commitments. It might even work out better. Sure, I've heard of women getting loads more eggs on long protocol, but if short protocol can give you high single numbers (say 6 - 9 eggs) that seems to be a sweet spot for the balance of numbers/quality. So will you start in early January on your next AF? Then you can be PUPO when you return to Hong Kong at the end of the month!

Bad news from me, I'm afraid. I feel numb, totally shell shocked and basically gutted at the moment.

I started my natural modified cycle #3 at Create. Started injections on day 5, Monday 5th Dec. Trigger on day 10, Saturday 10th Dec. Egg collection on day 12, yesterday. They collected 2 eggs - which is about as many as the protocol aims for (even were it not for the fact that my follicle count is very low; only 5 or 6 this month) - so that was fine.

This morning I heard there was no fertilisation, even after ICSI. One egg had perished and one fertilised abnormally. So that's the end of all the effort, expense and emotional upheaval of this cycle.

My original plan had been to do 3 more cycles after this one, but I need to review with the consultant to see what's best to do next. I had been so hoping to collect more embryos for freezing. I know it was going to take a good few embryos to stand any chance of one of them being viable.

So far I have only three day 3 embryos frozen. Cycle#1 (started 24 August) yielded 1 x grade 2, 6 cell embryo. I'm holding out no hope for that one. Cycle#2 (started 13 October) yielded 1 x grade 1, 8 cell plus 1 x grade 1, 7 cell embryo. So only one of those was exactly what I was looking for (i.e. the top grade 8 cell one). And now Cycle #3 has completely failed - hardly the Christmas present I was hoping for.

I will see the consultant before my next AF to see what they suggest (and hopefully that won't be to pack it in altogether ...) But for now I am totally


----------



## esj

Hi *Beside_the_seaside* So sorry to hear about your results from this cycle. It must be upsetting but at least you have the 3 frozen ones. Dont be disheartened.. You asked earlier what grade mine were- they are grade 1 and I think both 7 but havent had the written confirmation of the last one yet. Ive just started my 3rd cycle today. Keeping everything crossed for a good result. thank you for your suggestion on when to transfer. I spoke with consultant today and he said doing all frozen will not affect the result, in fact sometimes they even see better results with frozen as all the medication has left the system by the time transfer happens. Have you heard that before? anyway, I'll address it when we get this cycle over with. Thinking of you, best x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - thanks, I feel so despondent, I suppose I didn't appreciate quite how much hope I'd invested in the process, without really admitting it to myself.

Really good luck with your cycle #3 - hopefully it will progress as well as previously and you'll get at least one more top grade embryo. So you will be doing 'freeze all' again this time? With frozen transfer in February? It's interesting to read that your consultant says that there's no difference in success rates between fresh/frozen transfers. I must admit, I'd heard that people are coming round to thinking that frozen transfers are at least as good, if not better than fresh.


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## Syd72

I'm so sorry Seaside, that is gutting.

I don't know much about this whole process (as you know) but I have heard that sometimes the lower grade eggs/embryos can surprise you and be the ones that turn into a healthy baby.  Hopefully you'll be able to keep going with the banking for added security.


----------



## Blondie71

Frozen all the way!!! My boys are a day 3 frostie that split 👍


----------



## bthemax

Hi Everyone,

I am thinking of having one more cycle of IVF.  I am 45 and have so called low ovarian reserve/poor response. (so nothing really wrong - just old).
Does anyone know which which clinic is the most recommended for this or (older ladies?) 
Someone has recommended CRGH as being best for results, 
however I am already a little put off by the pay first then we talk to you approach.  

What are CREATE like? Anyone have any specific experience?
Anyone had sucess or heard anything about Lister? 

Thank-you and baby dust to everyone.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks for your kind thoughts *Syd*, I'm still feeling pretty miserable today 

*Bthemax* - I never looked into CRGH. I don't know why, as I've just checked their website out of curiosity and you're right, it seems their success rates are pretty good [ http://crgh.co.uk/success-rates/ ]. They apparently offer both mild stimulation and natural cycle IVF, so may be good for so-called low ovarian reserve or poor-responders. It's probably worth sending them an initial enquiry through their website - in particular whether they have any age limits for treatment? I'd add though, that the fact that they don't seem to publish success rates for 45+ doesn't mean very much, very few (if any) clinics do this, as far as I can tell, regardless of whether they actually treat women in that age group.

As regards the 'pay first then we talk to you approach' at CRGH - do you mean that they make you pay for an initial consultation in advance? I'd say that's pretty standard actually. There's usually a full refund if you cancel more than say, 48 hours prior to the appointment. I guess they have to charge in advance to avoid lots of no shows. Create certainly do this, the Lister might too, I can't remember.

I'd be interested to hear what other's think of CRGH too.

I had one cycle at the Lister in January. It was a very sad experience personally as I got pregnant but had to TFMR in second trimester. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that the clinic is excellent, in my opinion, if very expensive. The main reason I haven't gone back is that I couldn't really afford the cost of doing multiple cycles there.

I'm currently cycling at Create (see my post of yesterday). I've just completed cycle #3, which unfortunately was an epic fail. I have to say that my decision to go with Create was basically driven by (a) cost of multi-cycle packages, (b) the fact they didn't baulk at treating a 46/47-year old, with the usual caveats about low success rates, etc. So far they have been fine clinically, although I find that their admin can sometimes be a bit irritating / inflexible / disorganised.

I've sent you a PM with a couple of points, but basically, I'd say it's probably best to try to speak to the clinics yourself - whether via a free 'open day' or even paying for an initial consultation. Given the cost of treatment overall, it's probably worth it in order to be comfortable with your choice. It often just comes down to gut feel and cost I find!

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFrinds.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Sorry for the sabatical - busy with business / housebuilding commitments which are coming to an end thank the lord 
Beside - So sorry to hear about cycle 3 - I understand it must be so gutting to have gone through it to not have the result you hoped for but I am still holding our for you to be our #1 first BFP with your frosties?
When will you transfer them or is your plan to wait until you have more? I am praying for you x
Syd - the whole dates for IVF is a dark art sometimes - just glad to hear you are still ok and are going ahead with your plan - I did short protocol and was fine BTW x

I dont have good news either sorry ladies 
The Clomid cycle didnt work - turns out I still dont have AF that day was just a day of brown discharge and very light spotting and then nothing but my day 21 progesterone test result was only 2.0 so I didnt ovulate even with the Clomid.
I am now on day 30 - getting a bit sick of the long cycles - last 3 were 33 / 35 now 30 + before IVF I was 25-29 max  
Starting to think I wont ovulate again as I haven't since July as had IVF in August / Sept and then nothing ..... very worrying although clinic say because of Prostap inj it may have taken weeks to leave my system and then I went straight onto Clomid.
We have decided to stay natural for the next couple of months as my cycle is shot to sh!! and now I don't know whether I'm coming or going plus we are off on a very much needed holiday to tenerife on hogmanay - our first break in 2 years so I am going to relax and enjoy myself.
If AF comes in the next week I would hopefully be ok to try on holiday which I so wish happens - will keep you all posted!.

Please keep posting all you ladies out there as it helps everyone else on this crazy ride


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks for the commiserations *Highlandgirl*. I am more sad about the failure of #3 cycle than I could've imagined. In my head I'd built it up to hoping (against hope) that I'd get at least one more top grade embryo in the freezer before Christmas. The misery seems to follow me around and hit out of nowhere. In the supermarket yesterday I checked the best before date on a tin of Christmas biscuits; 28.10.2017. That should've been the first birthday of the little boy baby I lost in the second trimester this year, well, had he been healthy. I nearly ran screaming from the place.

I don't know what I'm doing next. I had planned to do another 3 'freeze all' embryo banking cycles, before doing any transfers. I had hoped, by the end of those 6 cycles, to have collected enough embryos for (at least) two FETs. It all seems up in the air now. I'm going to see the consultant for a review on 20 December so I'll see what he says. Hopefully not give up altogether.

I'm sorry to hear about the long cycle - very frustrating. But if your clinic say it's due to the Prostap injection taking weeks to leave your system, then you must trust them that's the reason for it - and try not to worry. I think I'm almost as excited for you to hear that you are finally taking a holiday as if you had got a BFP! You sound as though you work really hard, always very busy, so I imagine that will be a lovely, long overdue break for you and your DH.

Maybe you won't have to wait another couple of months before trying more TX though? At least if you don't want to. Slightly different scenario, but some time ago I had the endometrial biopsy test for uNK cells as a potential cause of miscarriage, at Coventry Implantation clinic. They ask you to wait 2 cycles after a miscarriage: so after the 2nd AF, you have the test during the next cycle. They want to make sure the test is reliable. My point being, they seriously know their stuff, and they obviously seem to believe that 2 cycles is typically enough to 'get back to normal'.

I'm a bit confused by you saying you didn't ovulate on Clomid though. I thought you'd had a mid-cycle scan showing you'd got some growing/developing big follicles? It's odd to think they would'nt have ovulated. Is it possible that if ovulation was LATER than you thought, your progesterone was still low on day 21 just because the timing of that blood test was wrong? If you do Clomid again, you can always ask for one additional scan just after you think you've ovulated and they should be able to see the ruptured follicle/fluid on the scan to confirm ovulation. Again, when I went for the Coventry test, that was on day 19 and from the ultrasound scan, they said they could see that I'd ovulated that month.

Well I hope you get AF soon (seems like an odd thing to say) and have a great holiday!

*ESJ *- thinking of you and hope your cycle #3 at Create is all going according to plan?

Good luck to everyone else x


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## Syd72

Sorry Highland, really hope you get to try naturally on holiday.

Seaside, I'm really sorry you're feeling so low.  Hoping the consultation goes well next week.

Good luck bthemax.  I had an initial consultation at the Lister in September, I wasn't asked to pay in advance, just at the end of the consultation.  We've got appointments at Oxford next week for sperm freeze and nurse consultation and again, no-one has mentioned paying in advance.

A question for you ladies.  When I spoke to the nurse at Oxford a couple of days ago and she told me I wouldn't have time to do long protocol I asked her which she thought was best.  Her response was that since I've been pregnant twice recently, both natural, my best bet is not to do IVF.  Why is that?  Is it that the drugs in your system cause problems?  I know natural won't be best for me, the combination of my travel and OH's low sex drive makes it far too difficult and stressful but I'm interested as to why she said that.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I'll be blunt; I'd just ignore what the nurse said after perhaps only 5 minutes of considering your situation. You queried whether she might've meant that the IVF drugs cause problems; I've never heard of that (and I've had enough of them). She probably just meant that because you have become pregnant naturally twice, in quick succession, then you stand a good chance of conceiving naturally again - so you could save yourself the money, time and emotional upheaval of IVF. And you might well conceive naturally more or less immediately. Then again, you might try for months with nothing and regret not giving IVF a chance sooner.

For what it's worth, I totally agree you should stick to what you're doing. You're fortunate to have the health insurance covering IVF, deferring IVF to some unspecified future date would be more tricky (because e.g. travel to the clinic is complicated and tough for you yet you have, I believe, plans to be back in the UK anyway for Christmas, plus you've probably only got a restricted amount of annual leave), TTC naturally is super-stressful for everyone, let alone before you've factored in that it's difficult for you and OH to guarantee to be in the same country on the critical days ...

I saw a very senior gynaecologist on a couple of occasions over the last couple of years, for non-IVF issues (regarding abdominal pain, retained placenta, etc). He's also - in another capacity - the medical director of a renowned fertility clinic. He basically said (even drew a diagram) that the success rates for IVF given my age/ovarian reserve were so low that I'd have an identical chance statistically by trying naturally, ergo, I might as well NOT do IVF and try naturally instead. Well I used to believe medical professionals spouting this type of nonsense. Sometimes I think that just because they're medical, doesn't mean they have any understanding of risk / probability / basic maths, although we tend to assume they do. So I said, as politely as I could muster, that whilst yes I may have a very low chance of success with IVF, my chance naturally is most definitely ZERO. I told him we had wasted a great deal of time trying naturally before DP was diagnosed with anti-sperm antibodies at the point of our first ever egg collection for IVF. Cue much bluster and back-pedalling about exceptions, blah, blah blah. I wonder if many failures to conceive are put down to female age when actually there's something else going on concurrently which is putting the brake on things.

Shall I get down off my soap box now? In short, I wouldn't be a big fan of being told NOT to try IVF when you've already got the ball rolling and have plans in place to do it!


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## Syd72

I love a good soap box 

I definitely have no intention of stopping.  As you so rightly say, she knows nothing about me other than what she's seen on paper and didn't even give it 5 minutes consideration.  Don't get me wrong, she was lovely and really helpful.  They really are going out of their way to accommodate me, I think the appointments are a bit more rushed than they would like but they understand my situation.  I know I stand a better chance of pregnancy when the egg (hoping there are some) and sperm actually get to meet!!!

Which reminds me, has anyone had the scratch?  Both my reflexologist and my acupuncturist have said I should do it.  I gather it's normally day 21 of the previous cycle but as that falls on NYE for me Oxford have said they'll do it on the 29th.  Given I have a 30 day cycle anyway (which I've read means a scratch around day 22/23 is ideal) I'm hoping doing it a few days early won't matter.  Does it really hurt?


----------



## esj

I am having my final collection on Saturday and have decided to wait and do the transfer in Feb so we can at least enjoy Christmas and get through stressful January.

*Syd* I wouldn't let a flippant and inconsiderate comment from a nurse put you off. I wasted a whole year+ of crucial time following my first IVF in March 2015 which failed and a doctor wrote my chances off at 42 without even suggesting another protocol or approach other than donor eggs. We were at Guys doing NHS Self funded treatment which in essence is still private but supposedly at a lower cost. Suffice to say I don't feel we had the best care and the doctor I saw post treatment was downright dismissive which really set me back as I had such a bad experience. My experience at Create has been completely different and I haven't felt at all that they weren't trying their best for us. They still gave us low chances of success based on the age factor but still had enough faith in them to give it a shot. Have a few gripes with admin/reception occasionally but otherwise its been positive. 
*Beside_the -Seaside* I am so rooting for you, your encylopaedic knowledge is astounding and you are a great source of encouragement for everyone on this thread. Thank you.
*highlandgirl* Please enjoy your holiday and the New Year and lets hope 2017 brings us all our baby dreams.
xxx


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## Syd72

Thanks esj. Waiting til Feb sounds like a good plan, let us know how the egg collection goes.

Something else I'm feeling which makes sense but I hadn't really thought about before is helpless and out of control. I'm a bit of a control freak in general and struggling with the fact there's really nothing I can do to affect the outcome next month.


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## TTCNK

Hi all, sorry I have been so scarce, work and really trying to get my head round things.  I hope you're all doing ok, I am not up to speed yet will all your news and hope you're all hanging in there.

Just wanted to give a crazy update!  I had a paid for appointment with Create that I changed 3 times then never went to.  Made all sorts of excuses.  Had numerous exchanges with advanced fertility centre in USA but had to wait for my file from Lister so never got round to it.  Anyway took my leftover letrozole/Ferrara so at least I was doing something.  Used OPK's but a critical moment was away and did not have them to check for peak.  So assumed that was that and would try again this month.  Bought hormone test this week as plan to start DHEA after testing.  Cycle very long last month or so after IVF.

Anyway decided to test as was feeling odd and got a BFP yesterday ! Internet cheapie x2 had a medium line.  Today FRER had immediate strong line !!  So can't quite believe it but wanted to post to say at 46 it is still possible!!  I am managing my expectations a lot,  after 5 mc I know this might not go anywhere. 

Started the steroids and will go for intralipids asap. 

Take care all, I will keep you posted on how thing a go xx


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## Syd72

That's amazing news, congratulations! Keep us posted on how everything is going x


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## Knockers71

That's fantastic TTNCK, gives us all hope! 
Did you conceive one cycle after Ivf then? I'm having my first period post Ivf (not counting the one I had a week after transfer) and this cycle has been really odd- no PMT or signs of ovulation. I'm hoping this cycle will be more normal so we can try naturally for a few months. I felt horrible after the Ivf- the bloat has finally gone after strict dieting for a few weeks, and I've had a chest infection so things haven't really been happening on the TTC front. 
That's great news, good luck, I hope the pregnancy continues to thrive x


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## TTCNK

Hi there , thanks Syd, thanks Knockers, remaining very cautious... on your question knockers.  I had the bleed after failed IVF which was normal.  Then waited 35 days form next cycle and I took the letrozole on day 2-6 ( 10mg) well 12.5 day 1 by mistake. Very heavy (tmi) as if my entire lining shed itself on day 1 then light.  So for me very odd too. It don't know if the meds.  So bfp after 2 very odd cycles post ivf.
So in don't know but my body just does not like ivf my 6 bfps all natural ( but 5 mc due to egg quality).  Was taking all the usual supplements and ubiquinol.  Keep going , glad you're feeling better, i also tried to be very healthy post ivf, lots of walking and healthy eating to recover .  Take care  xx


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## Agaamh

TTCNK said:


> Started the steroids and will go for intralipids asap.
> 
> Take care all, I will keep you posted on how thing a go xx


Congratulations! could you tell why you started with steroids and intralipids?
My clinic recommened to take steroids (as off - label use) after the egg collection.
I am not sure about this recommendation.


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## TTCNK

Hi , thank you Agaamh,  I was diagnosed with high NK Cells after MC number 2 so this is a treatment plan I was given.  Hopefully stops my body rejecting the embryo which is seen as foreign body.  If you've not been tested and have history of miscarriage I believe some clinics prescribe as precaution.  I should have started at ovulation but thought I was out this cycle.  For my ivf cycles I started day after egg collection.  They're not too bad for a short timeframe but have made me gain weight.  Good luck with your journey xx


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## Agaamh

@TTCNK
thank you for your answer. My clinic gives steroids as precaution for everybody.
Good luck for your pregnancy!


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## highlandgirl

Hello Ladies!

Well TTCNK you are our first official BFP on this thread so  CONGRATULATIONS! Xxxx
I understand you are being cautious however it gives us all hope that after 45 it is still possible with your own eggs which is why I started this thread - I will send you prayers from the highlands xxx
SYD - I am the same as you a control freak and I am struggling with being out of control of my cycle at the moment too xx stay sane calm and positive is my mantra xx
ESJ - how did egg collection go?
BTHEMAX - don't know if I welcomed you but welcome anyway to our fabulous network and let us know if you need any more advice xx
BESIDE - did you have an appt yesterday how did it go?

Where are all the rest of the ladies ?? Give us your updates xx

Well I am totally confused - I had 1 day of brown discharge with a spot of blood 2 weeks ago day 22 and then nothing so I am either on day 36 or 14 which I am getting stressed out about - can I call my day 22 - AF I don't know?
Just to confuse things further I thought I better start testing just in case so did clear blue dual hormone 2 pack poas starting day 9 ( if this is day 14 ) and I have had 2 lows and highs ever since but no peak so what the hell is going on? This would mean I had a 22 day cycle with 1 day of not a lot and if so I think I may have missed OV!   and if so might get AF on holiday as we are away in 10 days time which would be day 24 - aaaarrrgghhh!
X


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## Gemini40

Hi highland, still following thus thread, I decided to cancel my de cycle and am focused now in just trying naturally. AMH now 2.1 and my book 'itstartswith an egg' just arrived in post today. For the next 12 months will focus on Chinese medicine and homeopathic direction. Watch this space!


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Gemini

Thanks for the update - good luck on the natural journey and please keep us updated x
I take a Chinese remedy called women's precious and have just ordered another called free and easy wanderer for myself and we have also ordered one for my husband and I have acupuncture every 2 weeks as well and I love it! My acupuncturist is trained in fertility and he is just such a positive person to see every 2 weeks which keeps my partly sane! X

Saw our NHS doctor yesterday and he thinks I should not count the day of whatever I had on day 22 as AF so if that's the case I am now on day 37! Now just want AF to come before the holiday  I have also been referred to the local hospital where the consultant has offered me an appt at some point to see what options she thinks there may be - no IVF or anything locally but let's see what she can come up with always open to ideas! 
Xx

How is everyone else doing ??


----------



## Syd72

Hope af starts quickly Highland. Gemini, that's a great book. I also like How to get pregnant (and succeed) by Marissa Peer. That's not the exact title but something along those lines. Seaside, hope the appointment went ok. 

We're now in Oxford killing time before our appointment with OFU.


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## Syd72

Just finished all appointments at Oxford, seemed fine. I go back next week for the scratch and to get my prescription.

They did a scan and AFC, I'm on day 12 of my cycle and she counted 15 follicles which is good apparently (for age) does that sound right?

Mixing of stuff for injections looks complicated but I'm sure all will come clear.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Syd,

15 is fab! I had 6 or 7 ? on my day 13 last month so go for it!!! x
Keep us posted - routing for you!
xx


----------



## kittykatkins

*Syd *15 is fantastic! Got everything xed.

*Beside *I hope you are ok. Try not to worry too much about the egg grading. Both 1 and 2 have good chance of becoming bfp's. I read that more bfp's come from Grade 2 than Grade 1 embryos, but then this is probably because grade 2 embryos are more common. I suppose it depends how you look at it!

Congrats *TTCNK*, its great to hear your news... give us all hope!

afm ttc the old fashioned way this month... hoping for that xmas miracle! Otherwise it looks like we'll be going down the DE route next year.


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## Syd72

Thanks everyone. Just to be clear, that's the count today, the month before I start. Meds begin around 10 jan.


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## highlandgirl

Hi Syd

Well I'm sure if that's your starting point you will be absolutely fine xx 

AF has arrived thank god! So here we go again but this time with a holiday at the right time  
Merry xmas ladies and a happy new year - here's to lots of BFPs in 2017 xxxx
Baby dust to you all xxxx


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Highland, glad everything is the right timing for your holiday.

Merry Christmas ladies, here's to a wonderful and baby-filled 2017 for us all x


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## kittykatkins

That's good news *Highland*, at least you know where you are up to now. x


----------



## Wez

Hello again Hope you are all ready for the ridicoulesness that is called Christmas Day lol

Talked to the delightful Dr D at Create Birmingham this am, period arrived on 22nd, a day early, it was predicted to land on 23rd following my EC....how rude, she has cocked up scan timings/days when Create and labs and couriers are closed.

He wants me to go down on 28th for a scan, this will be day 6, if what he sees is good i will have to travel to London for the 2 scans as Create at Birmingham closed until 3rd Jan
  

As he isn't pushing me with Gonal this time, going for  the natural egg growth etc, it all depends what he sees on 28th, promised if no good then would still have the 2 cycles to go at, I'm a county bumpkin and quite scared at the thought of travelling alone into London, nevermind the blooming trains, finding hotel and omg getting a taxi,,,farmers dont do this sort of thing. I thought I did well staying in Birmingham 4 days to stay down for scans to avoid travelling thru night 4 hrs each time i had a scan!, but London, that is scarey. New Year will be spent in a strange place on my own feeling stressed...again.

Will let you know what he finds. Won't be much......Syd you are lucky ..15!! Highland so are you with 6 or 7, I thought I was with 5 or 6 but only taken 1 out as any good at EC but it didn't fertilise .

Enjoy Christmas everybody xx


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## TTCNK

Hi all a quick Merry Christmas message to you all!! Hoping we all get our wishes coming true in 2017!

Take care xx


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Hi all - hope everyone survived Christmas? Just catching up on here ...

*TTCNK *- many congratulations on your *BFP *- what a marvellous (slightly early) Christmas present! So I'm thinking that after posting your news on 17th and Merry Christmas on 24th, you're about 5 1/2 - 6 weeks pregnant now? That's wonderful, best wishes for a healthy pregnancy.

I notice you'd take Letrozole/Femara 10mg on days 2 - 6; please could I ask you how you got the prescripton for that? And any tips on what's included in your 'all the usual supplements', as well as the ubiquinol you mentioned, would be appreciated! Interesting that you say you weren't taking DHEA (as I think you were going to start it if you weren't pg?)

*ESJ *- hope you're OK? I think you wrote you were having your 3rd/final egg collection on Saturday 17 December? I was wondering how that went? I hope you got one or two good embryos for your efforts?

*Wez* - I was interested to read you're doing 3 cycles at Create Birmingham. I notice your first cycle on 10 December produced a mature egg fertilised with ICSI; how did it do after that? Did you get anything to freeze?

I hope things go well at St Paul's for your scan today (28th Dec)? Please let us know how your cycle goes.

I'm sorry the travelling/logistics are adding a whole extra layer of stress for you that you don't need. I can so relate to that. Just in case it helps, I'll send you a PM with some hotel suggestions that I've found useful myself.

*Highlandgirl *- Must have been a relief you got AF on 23 Dec - did that put you on course for TTC on holiday? I'm sorry, I've lost track of when you're going on holiday - did you say you were going for New Year? Anyway, have a marvellous time!

Are you doing another Clomid/TTC naturally? *TTCNK*'s success with Letrozole/Femara has just reminded me of this. I had a review consultation after the failed cycle at Create. We discussed maybe a Clomid cycle. Dr S said they never use Clomid unless they're doing frozen cycles (which I am) because of it's bad effects on the uterine lining. (If they're doing a fresh cycle they use Tamoxifen instead, usually with a very small dose every other day of Gonal F too.) I've heard of Letrozole being used for natural ovulation induction (like TTCNK) because it doesn't have the potential to mess up your lining like Clomid does. Is there any chance you might ask your clinic to switch the prescription over for the future? Might be worth it if you're trying a few of these cycles?

*Syd*- astounded to read of your 15 follicles mid-cycle - fantastic! If you're getting those type of numbers without stimulation then your IVF should be a breeze. You must have a great chance that (at least) one of them should produce the goods! Fingers crossed you'll be pregnant soon!


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

... And here's my own update (separately to try to avoid mega post).  For my part, I've been feeling too depressed about it all to write very much on here.  I'll try to keep it reasonably succinct and painless.  

I had a review with the consultant after my epic fail with cycle #3 at Create.  He said everything had looked fine during that cycle, hormones etc, and the failure to get any embryos was (most probably) an egg quality thing, BUT he also said I was "about due one" - meaning about due a poor outcome.  

After some blah blah about each cycle being independent of another, with past performance not necessarily being a guide to future success (or failure) we agreed to at least try another cycle (well another 3 cycles, if I can make it).  He said he thought the Gonal F protocol had actually been working quite well for me, but agreed to try a Clomid-only cycle if I wanted to.

So I got AF on Christmas Eve, started Clomid Christmas Day.  Scan yesterday on day 4 showed nothing really happening.  That's due to my ovaries unfortunately, not the Clomid's fault.  Left ovary had literally ZERO FOLLICLES.  Right ovary had one haemorraghic cyst, plus ONLY follicle that looks too large to be quite right.  I'm having a scan on Thursday 29th and need to decide whether to push on with this cycle or not.  The protocol would only intend to collect one or two eggs, so that's not the issue so much as whether if there's only one to start with, you would have any hope at all of it to be any good.  On the one hand I don't want to 'waste' a cycle that I've paid for, on the other hand, time is very much against me.  

I've just no idea whether I could expect next month to be any better.  I wrote out my sorry statistics to try to clarify my thoughts, but none the wiser.

27-Jul-16: (Day 7) 5  follicles  
24-Aug-16:  (Day 5) 6 follicles ---> cycle #1, 1 x grade 2 embryo
16-Sep-16: (Day 4) 1 follicle, 1 haemorrhagic cyst ---> skip cycle
13-Oct-16:  (Day 5)  3 follicles ---> cycle #2, 2 x grade 1 embryos
05-Nov-16: skip cycle due to colposcopy, but scan (not done by Create) showed 7+ follicles, typical!
04-Dec-16: (Day 4)  5 follicles ---> cycle #3, failed
24-Dec-16:  (Day 4)  1 follicle, 1 haemorrhagic cyst ---> what to do now?

... so I am doubly envious of the abundance of follicles I see written about on here.  I had lots of cycle tracking, but no IVF during 2015 (when I was between 45 - 46 + 5 months) and I would usually have 9 - 12 follicles at baseline.  Urgh, horrible how things change.  I never would've thought I'd still be doing IVF at my age, but then I never could've anticipated how terrible it would feel to lose a baby in the second trimester either.  So here I am, hobbling along ...

(PS - perhaps I should add, please no one mention donor eggs to me as some cheery alternative or I will properly lose my mind.  After agonising over it time and again for years, it's sadly just not an option for us.  So it just sounds like "no baby" to me.  And I may very well have to get used to the idea of "no baby", but I'm struggling to process it right now.   )


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## Syd72

Hi Seaside, glad you updated, I've been thinking about you and wondering how the consultation went. I honestly don't feel I understand everything enough to properly comment but my one thought is that at your next scan, if it still isn't working I would be tempted not to continue this time, despite the money. That's probably less than useless advice, sorry.

Got my scratch tomorrow, terrified which is really unlike me. Medical stuff doesn't phase me at all as a general rule. I had no concerns about having my fibroid removed and whether I would be in pain after. I have no concerns about injecting my ivf meds, didn't have any problems about injecting myself with heparin a few years ago when I had a blood clot but I'm so nervous for tomorrow.


----------



## TTCNK

Hi all, jus checking in - hope a good Christmas.

Seaside - sorry to hear things are not going to great this cycle, I hope things improve in the next days, it's such a hard road and I know nothing I can say will help as it is so personal. 

On your questions

-  Yes I think about 6 weeks today, so for me the next 1-2 weeks critical as this is when I have miscarried in the past.
- Letrozole.  I tried super ovulation before IVF with Dr S ( my NK cells guys)  - so he prescribed it .  As you say -  much better for the lining.  It did not work on those cycles when I also used Ovitrelle trigger shot.  Typical is it not!  I had some left over and just took it as prescribed but did not use trigger shot - and seemed to have got timing right!  I went to see him last week for my intralipids  - he was ok with what I did - said often can happen after IVF...
- Supplements:  Pregnacare Max ( the green tablet and the extra omega 3);  vitamin D; aspirin; ubiquinol  ( only up to 200 mg a day or I itch);  coq 10 and vit B mix ( capsules I found in waitrose - own brand).    Not really for pregnancy but I was taking all 3 FruitPlus capsules to try and shift some weight.. lots of vitamins in those too.. so who knows?  They are supposed to balance your insulin and cortisol levels etc...

Take care all xxx  and good luck for tomorrow Syd72!


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## Gemini40

Hi ttcnk, do you mindme asking were you on dhea also before you conceived?


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## kittykatkins

I've been thinking about you *Seaside*, glad to hear your still going forward. It's a difficult decision what to do about this cycle, on one hand you've paid for it, so why not go ahead and see if there's anything there. On the other hand, the last time you skipped a cycle, the next one produced 2 great looking embryos. Sorry it's not much help. X

*Syd* The scratch isn't the most pleasant of experiences, but most people find it pretty uneventful. My advise would be take some sort of pain killer half an hour before. Good luck x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks *Kittykatkins*, that's kind of you to say so. I don't know what to do, I've been stressing about it all day. If I abandon the cycle, I'd only get charged the abandoned cycle fees (which are about £400 - 650), but I could "save" the full go at a cycle that I've paid for for another time (so I'd still have 3 cycles left). At least there's no issue about "wasting" the cost of the drugs, the Clomid cost me a grand total of £8.30! Hopefully it'll become clearer tomorrow.

*Syd *- Are you going ahead with the scratch? I had an endometrial biopsy in 2014 which is pretty much the same procedure. The concept of it is probably worse than the actuality, if that makes sense. Yes, yes to having painkillers in advance! There's no getting away from it, it is a bit ouchy, but it doesn't take long. I was offered gas and air which (because I'm a big wuss) I took full advantage of!


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## Syd72

Thanks Seaside, yes, 0930 tomorrow. If there's any chance of gas and air I'll grab it!

Let us know how you're feeling about things tomorrow.


----------



## Wez

Thanks for the PM *Seaside* 

Went to Birmingham this morning had my scan, Dr D only found one follicle and was small, I persuaded him gently that I didn't want to travel to London and as we are going all natural this cycle surely waiting til 3rd Jan when they reopen would be soon enough to undergo a scan? 

Surprisingly he agreed, will see at 3rd Jan scan if follicle has grown enough to persevere with this cycle.

Got away with no blood test too...which was a nice change lol 

Last time my LH levels remained high and until they dropped the follicle didn't grow much, but as we saw on graph today as soon as that level came down the graph shot up. Is there anything I can take supplement wise to help with this high level coming down quicker?

He was saying throwing chemicals at my follicles obvisouly just made inferior ones grow that were no good, will post after scan and see what the outcome is


----------



## TTCNK

Hi seaside, no I was not on DHEA.  I was going to test hormones with a home saliva test then decide.  Got BFP the day it arrived.  Not sure actually if I would have known what to do with results.  Even if I came in range of normal for my age, think I might still have taken it to give my levels a boost from what I read.  I was nervous as I believe it can cause issues like cysts etc

Hope the decision becomes clear today xx


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Well, a very *Happy New Year* to you all!

Thanks for answering about DHEA *TTCNK*- very interesting to note you achieved your BFP without it. Hope all is still well with you?

*Knockers* - I hope you benefit from that often reported post-IVF fertility bounce! Wishing you very best of luck for trying naturally, are you about coming up to ovulation time?

*Wez* - glad to hear you found a good solution to the Birmingham clinic closure / travel dilemma. I hope your scan with Dr D goes well on Tuesday. I'd be interested to read your update as to how the wholly natural cycle turns out? Hope you get a great quality egg!

*Highlandgirl *- Hogmanay seems as good a time as any to say thank you again for starting this thread! Hope your holiday is just what the doctor ordered!

*Syd* - hope the scratch was suitably uneventful? Would you be about a week off starting your short protocol now? Very best of luck.

I'm 'celebrating' by staying in with 2 Ovitrelle (trigger shot) injections, just done at 22:30, to very hopefully retrieve one solitary egg on Monday morning. We had planned to go to a little family party tonight, but had to fabricate an excuse when it turned out I would've needed to take my pre-filled syringes with me and ask to stash them in the fridge (alongside all the alcohol I wouldn't be drinking) until it was time for my party piece. Er no thanks!

As I said previously, I've been feeling pretty negative about this cycle, but Create has repeatedly assured me that the single follicle looks OK, so I might as well push on with it. Fingers crossed.

One thing that annoyed me beyond measure though. I saw Dr M S today, lovely female consultant, and took the opportunity to ask her about my colposcopy. I had turned up to start a freeze-all natural modified IVF cycle back in November, when my baseline scan had looked great for me these days (7+ follicles), but the doctor I saw that day said NOT to do any IVF stims in the same cycle as colposcopy, so I skipped that month. Anyway, the NHS gynae consultant who performed the colposcopy had implied that skipping the IVF had been unecessary (although didn't really comment) and Dr M S agreed - there was no reason not to have cycled in November. Aaargh! At my advanced age every additional month seems like a crisis and to have missed a cycle with a seldom achieved promising baseline is particularly galling.

I won't be sorry to see the back of 2016. The loss of my little boy baby is still very painful.  And outside my domestics, I took the 48% side of the June referendum and Brexit continues to baffle/faintly depress me in equal measure. So for 2017, I'll wish for a viable pregnancy, whilst still keeping my job!

Or maybe ... a baby for everyone in 2017. Why not?


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## Syd72

Happy new year everyone!

Seaside, good news about the follicle, fingers crossed all goes well tomorrow. Your comment about the trigger shot next to the alcohol in the fridge did make me smile.

Scratch was very uncomfortable but quick, I was hugely relieved when it was over. Expecting af 8 or 9 jan, excited to get going now.


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## Syd72

Btw Seaside, I'm with you on brexit...

I had no spotting the day of my scratch but have had it for the last 3 days, did anyone else have that?


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## moonstone5985

Hello and happy new year- that's the easy bit. You may remember I posted on here awhile back and hope you don't mind me popping back - I'm nearly 43 but can't find anywhere else to post this that seems relevant esp as it's rather long!!

I am starting my 2nd ivf cycle at the lister although first time with them, about 18% chance of live birth I think the consultant said in her fast paced consultation.

I'm on a long protocol with the pill (urgh), and only 225 units of Menopur (due to my mother having had breast cancer). Which is ironic because 1st ivf in Czech they put me on mega mild (75 units) because of colon surgery which doesn't worry lister at all. Does it stand a chance of working? 2 weeks of pill max, nasal spray, injections Menopur and something else then ovritelle. The consultant seemed positive about my chances - "you will get blastocysts" but in the medical report letter sent after it was pretty negative- "couple are aware of low chances due to age and low egg quality but want to go ahead anyway" I'm paraphrasing as can't remember exactly what letter said.

Determined not to tell anyone unless necessary (like my parents that are lending me the money!) last time (I have since found out) one of my friends set up a ******** group entitled "(my name) is having a hard time"... the thought is there but I'm not sure how that was meant to help other than one of my friends sent me a random loved up text which at the time only seemed incredibly random and that gossip was going around. From the people I had told I got lots of over concerned texts - one of them was heavily pregnant herself. 

Anyway, I'm dreading it all. Hoping this time won't be as stressful (and going abroad was incredibly stressful mainly because of the lack of communication from the clinic and vague communication when it came) but having seen how many times I have to have a scan (3/4) I know it will be - fitting scans in at certain times when you have work and other major commitments is stressful.

To top it off for my nye I'm in Luxembourg visiting dp family who only speak French - I don't - and it's minus 2 outside. 2017 has started off badly...I really hope my ivf cycle doesn't as the 1st did - that didn't even get to ET stage.... the good news we are going home tomorrow- although snow is forecast...I may kill myself if the flight doesn't leave!! 

Ps what's a scratch? Sounds horrible...


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## Syd72

Ladies, you may know this already but I've just seen a discussion on ** about letrozole (femara) as a good alternative to clomid.  More common in the US apparently but seems to have worked well for those that have tried it. 

Moonstone, good luck with your cycle, who did you see at the Lister? A scratch is basically scratches made to the womb lining, there's some evidence to show it improves chances of implantation.


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## moonstone5985

Thanks Syd. It was Dr Jaya Parikh at the lister...

I hope the scratch has done its magic. x


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## Lily0750

Hi moonstone5985,

I also saw Dr Jaya Parikh at the Lister. She seemed positive at consultations (your AMH not too bad, you only need one egg, etc.) but then the letter arrived quite negative. It made me re-think of spending money on OE IVF.

I had tandem cycle (collecting own and donor eggs same time) with TM in Cyprus, got none of own eggs, transferred two 5 days donor embryos and still got BFN.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Lily0750 *- good to hear from you again. What are your TTC plans now? If I recall, didn't you have a number of frosties from TM in Cyprus?

*Moonstone* - welcome back. Try not to perceive any implied negativity in your clinic letter. I think they can't send out anything in writing that could look like some kind of guarantee of a baby. Just remember you were quoted a 1:5 chance at your consultation, which is pretty bloody good, I'd be feeling very positive if I were you! Hope you survived Luxembourg; it must've felt isolating being excluded from the conversation. I can barely speak any French any more, even though I lived in France for a short while. Are you learning French? You must have a great teacher in your DP and such an advantage for your future child/ren!

*Syd *- As for spotting after scratch. I had some bleeding after the endometrial biopsy that I had, which is a very similar process. Then slight bleeding for four days afterwards and a bit of spotting until my period, which I would never normally get. I think it's to be expected. Fingers crossed for your cycle.

I had my egg collection today for cycle #4. The embryologist phoned whilst I was still travelling home. They had thought an egg had been collected but it was an empty zona pellucida, basically an empty shell. Which is rare, apparently, but no less similar to how I feel myself. It really hurts and I feel so despondent. All my dithering over whether to proceed with this cycle, maybe just goes to show that sometimes you should listen to your gut instinct.

So I'll make an appointment with the consultant for review and try to decide what (if anything) to do next and when. Technically I have two cycles left. I should probably defer an appointment for 2 weeks until I get AF, as I doubt the doctor will be able to say much without another scan. Uurgh! Sorry to bring such rubbish news onto the thread. I'm going to treat myself to a major sulk now.


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## Lily0750

*Beside_the_seaside*, sorry to hear about your egg collection. It is an awful feeling as it looks like the body is still functioning and producing AFs every month but apparently it is no more.
Yes, I do have 5 frosties at TM in Cyprus. Feeling useless and lost after BFN. Trying to figure out if I need any further tests/investigations before going to frosties transfer. I had 21 year old donor eggs and they did not implant.


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## Syd72

That is crap Seaside, I'm sorry.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks, yes, crap about sums it up.  DP's summary of the embryologist's verdict was "so like a hollow malteser?"  But he's also reminded me that after my first Create cycle (started end of August), I went for my scan in September and found only a haemorrhagic cyst and one single follicle. But then having (more sensibly) skipped September, the next cycle I got 2 decent looking frosties.  Of course, I'm desperately hoping I'll have a little bounce back again after next AF, but who knows.  As much as it's killing me, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.


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## moonstone5985

Seaside - really sorry to hear your news. But thank you so much for your words to me... you are right, I guess they must be negative in their letters...

btw I asked her if i should be taking dhea which I had been for past 2.5 months and she said no because of the raised testosterone it might cause. she said i should just take ubiquinol...

if this cycle fails though i will go back on it. i was taking myo-inisitol and my AF were becoming more regular to the day rather than one long one and one short one which was previous. when i had a miscarriage last year my cycle was bang on 27 days when I got pregnant... but what does it all mean really...like you say Lily.

So glad to be home - we did make it back from Lux hurrah! I was debating signing up for a proper French course but don't want to add anything to my schedule right now...will wait till this IVF is over - good way of procrastinating, no?!


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## Sunflowerseeds

Happy new year everyone.

Thank you for your posts, sorry I don't post much but try to login to read a few time a weeks. Your posts have been helping to keep me going and not sure if I would have the strength to carry on without hearing your words of encouragement so a huge thank you. 

Spoke with one of the doctors at Create who convinced me to visit them and then had an appointment with Create Birmingham. The doctors are encouraging but the support staff at the clinic leave a lot to be desired. 

All looked ok on the scan, apart from a very small area of blood flow that could impact on implantation. Think doctor was trying to find something wrong. 

Was showing 9 follicles and what looked like a good dominat follicle that was due to be released. Doctor suggested we collect a few days later!!!? Anyway we tried to see if we could conceive naturally. No luck again this cycle. AF arrived at end of Dec 2016. 

Feeling like I'm going through a grieving process and it may be coming to the end of the road, despite having the good news that my ovaries are producing follicles and my AMH is 12.6. Think next cycle may be the last. 

Currently considering a new clinic for another IVF cycle but we are feeling a bit put off by chaos at Create Birmingham. Is anyone experiencing this or is it just how clinics are in the UK?

Wish you all the best of luck on your journeys X


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Sunflowerseeds* - I'm curious to know what the chaos was about at Create Birmingham?

I've had some of my treatment scans at Birmingham and would agree that their admin/support staff can be quite poor, surprisingly so as it shouldn't be exactly difficult. Generally I've found the doctors/senior nurses there to be very caring, although I was very unhappy with one particular piece of advice I received, later contradicted by senior consultants in London (... I won't go into it again though).

If you want slick - and are considering a single cycle - then I'd recommend the Lister. They got me pregnant early 2016 (and of course it was entirely not their fault that it ended badly). Someone upthread mentioned CRGH, which is probably another good clinic to consider before you turn 45, as I don't think they treat anyone after 45th birthday. I'm too old for CRGH and the Lister would be far too expensive for me to do multiple cycles; whereas after losing the second baby, I came to realise that I'd need a few cycles to stand any chance at all.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about not conceiving naturally. Maybe there's a sperm issue, for example? I conceived my daughter on our first go without contraception aged 43. After she was born, I conceived again after 2 months of trying but miscarried. Then NOTHING for 18+ months until IVF; turned out DP had developed a high level of anti-sperm antibodies (he might've always had the antibodies, but the level was now problematic and needs ICSI). But really, you ought to be fine, no? Like you say, you're still young enough to rely on a sufficient antral follicle count/AMH to have a great chance of a decent result from a single IVF cycle. Good luck.


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## Syd72

So I'm really starting to panic that my period is starting early, spotting is getting heavier and redder. Earliest period I've ever had has been 28 days but that's not til saturday. I don't even have my prescription yet! Phoned the clinic this afternoon and Zika test has come back negative but as that wasn't til the afternoon (I also phoned this morning) I suspect the prescription hasn't been posted yet so I won't get it til Thursday. I'm assuming no one does same day medication..


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## Syd72

Morning all.  My prescription has just been emailed through, I'm on 375iu of gonal f from day 2 and 0.25mg of cetrorelix from day 5.  Is that high dose?


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

Just a quick post from tenerife got a peak on my clear blue first time since before my ivf tx!
I'm so happy as haven't had one since july! At least I'm back to normal - day 12/13 peak so here's hoping the sun sea sand and !!! Works lol x


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## Syd72

Hooray, great news Highland!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - great news your cycle is behaving again! Have a great holiday and fingers crossed! Are you on the Clomid this month?

*Syd* - You asked whether your prescription was a high dose - did you want a high dose?

The 0.25mg of Cetrorelix (Cetrotide, same thing) is absolutely standard, everyone seems to get the same. Its just to stop you from ovulating early - I think by reducing your LH - prior to your egg collection.

From what I gather, the 375 iui Gonal F is moderately high. I think you'd call a very low dose 75 iui, a low dose 150 iui, moderate around 225 iui, moderately high 350-375 iui, then a high dose would be say 450 iui.

The Lister gave me 225 iui and Create has used 150 iui, but for a shorter time (typically only 5 days, cycle day 5 - 9). The theory being if you're not expecting loads of eggs, why give a high-ish dose of drugs, it's just overkill, plus there's no point dredging up complete rubbish. At your age (young enough) and AMH you ought to be capable of producing a lot of eggs (or that's what I would be expecting) so they need to prescribe you the FSH dosage that will facilitate that - which sounds like exactly what they've done.

Where are you getting the drugs from? I found a certain supermarket pharmacy (beginning with A) to be the cheapest for Gonal F and Ceterolix/Cetrotide. I found very little variation in price though.


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## Syd72

Thanks Seaside.  I wasn't particularly wanting anything, just curious as to where it sat in terms of low/high.  

I had planned to get the drugs from that very supermarket but had a complete panic on Tuesday when my spotting started getting so heavy, as of yesterday they still hadn't posted the prescription to me so I ended up doing it through the company they use (Stork).  Of course AF still hasn't started so I would have had time but I didn't know that at the time.  I wish it would just get going, this weird heavy red spotting is freaking me out slightly, I normally get 4-6 days of brown spotting then AF.  I've read elsewhere (I think a very old thread on here) about a couple of people that thought they had spotting after the scratch and it turned out to be an incredibly light, early period, something do with the procedure, so they had to then start the next month because cd2 came and went without them realising. Will relax once it fully starts.

Am I right in thinking you're now waiting for AF in order to have your follow up appointment and discuss next steps?


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## moonstone5985

Seaside - so you didn't get your drugs from Lister when you were there? I thought I would for ease. If i was going elsewhere though I suppose I should have actually have ordered them by now as my first scan appt is next Thursday and I'll need to come off the pill and start ivf meds up to a few days after...

How does it work with A pharmacy? I have the prescription so could go in tomorrow...but would i have enough time to get the meds?

Syd - I hope your AF comes properly, stress that you just don't need!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I looked back at my diary and definitely had days of spotting/very light bleeding after the endometrial biopsy procedure, which was disconcerting but Coventry said was quite normal. Luckily it was still obvious it wasn't actually a period and AF came at roughly the normal time (if on the early side of normal).

*Syd / Moonstone* - As regards the drugs, I can't honestly remember whether the 'A' pharmacist agreed to order them on the basis of a phone call, or a fax/email of the prescription. The drugs arrived in their shop the next day (they're very efficient) but they wouldn't actually dispense them without the original hard copy signed prescription (and payment of course).

I did buy a top up from the Lister pharmacy (if I recall I needed an extra Gonal F pen). The reason I didn't buy from the Lister originally is that I live several hours away from London door to door and it seemed a long time for the Gonal F to be out of the fridge. The Lister pharmacist (super knowledgeable, as you would expect) explained to me that she'd be more concerned about temperature cycling as they don't have stability data on what happens if the drug keeps coming up to ambient temperature, then goes back in the fridge again. She said once out of the fridge it's fine to store at room temp (2 - 25 C) for 28 days, which is more than you need for one cycle obviously.

Have you seen these pages from the manufacturer, Merck Serono? Includes (when you scroll down) useful injection guide video and pdf

- http://www.fertility-information.com/patient_products/gonal-f-follitropin-alfa-pre-filled-pen

- http://www.fertility-information.com/patient_products/cetrotide-cetrorelix-acetate

... the only thing with the Cetrotide video is that when you're drawing the newly-mixed solution back up with the yellow mixing needle, don't turn the thing upside down like they do, I'm sure that's impossible! Far better to just tip it slightly - like keep the bottom corner/edge of the vial touching the table/work surface and tilt it 45 degrees. Does that make sense? (It's depressing that I started off quite nervous about doing these injections correctly and now I could do them in my sleep!)

*Syd* - thanks for asking after me. Yes, I'm going to see the consultant for a review next week. I won't have had AF by then, so I'm not sure exactly what he'll be able to say, but the next available appointment after AF would've been too late to start another cycle if I wanted to try back-to-back (which I don't really). I'm presuming I'll be able to go separately for a scan after AF and he'll review it, or something. It's hard work not sinking into despondency, BUT I'm still hoping to find at least a couple of cycles with no cysts and better follicle numbers 

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that neither Fertility Friends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Syd72

Seaside, thank you for posting those guides.  I'm already worrying that I can't remember how to do the cetrorelix, all that mixing and changing needles...  The clinic gave me a guide for the gonal f, which is easy, but not the other one.

Hopefully the consultant will guide as to when/what next?  I'm sure you'll get a couple more cycles with better follicle numbers etc.  Remind me how many frozen embys you have?  Do you have a sense of when you'll be doing the fet or is it really wait and see at this stage?


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## Beside_the_seaside

No worries - but NB I just added a note about not turning the Cetrotide upside down like they do!

I've got 2 x grade 1 frosties, plus another frostie that isn't looking so great, so I've sort of discounted it in my head. Ideally I would love another 3 frosties (which ought to be at least _technically _possible from 3 cycles) so I'd have enough for two FETs of 2-3 embryos each time. Just hoping I can stay in the game long enough to know I've given it my best shot this time, albeit belatedly. I won't try any FET until after I've finished with the egg collections.


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## Sunflowerseeds

Thanks for your reply Besides.

They advised they had a cancellation in short notice but then had to chase them with several emails and a phone call to confirm. 

Arrived earlier as advised, admin was disorganised. Previous lady had been waiting a while for her appointment. Office manager making lots of excuses that she'd just taken over and was reviewing the old processes as they wasn't right. Dr D wasn't aware of previous appointment or ours. Office manager proceed to have argument with him then advised us he can be stroppy but is a good doctor. 

Dr D was very good and felt our appointment was ok. He advised of possible treatment options then admin didn't have pricing details or leaflet on treatment, after 15/20 minutes we were asked to pay and gave us some of the information hand written on back of a sheet. 

The nursing staff seem friendly and liked Dr D. 

Your advice has been useful we'll look into those clinics.

Thanks again x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Sunflowerseeds* - sounds like you had a dreadful experience! I'm hoping (for my sake) that the rank amateurism of the admin staff is no reflection on the clinical expertise/treatment. But you'd think that admin would be embarrassed to provide such an obviously poor service. Basic example; I've been emailed a detailed pdf price list, so I know they have one. For someone to call themselves an 'office manager' you'd think they'd at least be able to hand you a price leaflet, or know whereabouts it's filed on their network to print you one there and then? If I were you, I'd be inclined to email Create with your comments (similar to what you've written here) and see what they come back with. Just out of curiosity if nothing else!

*Wez* - did you go back to Create at Birmingham on Tuesday 3rd? How was your scan? Hope all is well? And admin is at least tolerable!

*Knockers *- are you still around? How is TTC naturally going?

How is everyone else?


----------



## Knockers71

Hi everyone, thanks for checking in seaside, the ttc hasn't been going at all, I've been really ill with my ME, and I'm on my second chest infection of the month! My husband had been working crazy hours, leaving early in the morning and getting back between 10 and midnight. Adding to the fact he has a terrible libido at the best of times, it hasn't happened. I'm past ovulation already, due on in the next week. Hopefully when I ovulate in a few weeks I will be better and my husband will be around more. It will be within two months after the Ivf so will the fertility boost still be there?


----------



## Syd72

Knockers I totally feel your pain re a partner with terrible libido! To be honest that's a big part of why I pushed for ivf.  Hope you're feeling much better soon.


----------



## Knockers71

Hi syd, people always assume men have high libidos and women are the ones who don't feel like it! It's not the case at all for lots of people. It's so frustrating isn't it, especially when you're meant to be trying for a baby!!xx


----------



## Syd72

All the jokes about women having headaches and not being interested drive me nuts! My libido is so much higher than his! Makes the time around ovulation far more stressful than the tww for me.


----------



## Knockers71

Yes same here! I feel myself getting really ratty around ovulation and angry too, and horny! Not a good combo


----------



## Syd72

Ha ha, exactly!


----------



## Blondie71

😂 girls you're hilarious, at least you get it once in a while unlike me lol, not going down the tinder route either 🙊


----------



## Syd72

Ha, I tried tinder a couple of years ago, never even got as far as going on a date!  I really hate internet dating, I always say I don't make a great first impression, I'm a grower, so it's really not the right medium for me


----------



## Blondie71

Haha I'm a visual sort myself and am easily offended lol, having seen the miracle makeover photos of some of the people I know in real life (thanks photoshop) i'm definitely not trusting a photo that may have been taken 20 years ago (assuming it is even them) 😂


----------



## Syd72

Oh I'm very visual, in that sense internet dating was great for me!  Height was my problem, I'm very tall and never wanted to date a man shorter than me and men mostly lie about their height on dating sites   Having said that, my OH is basically the same height so I've resigned myself to a life of flat shoes or tiny heels...


----------



## Blondie71

I know lots of super tall women and they all have that same gripe lol and yep hardly any are ever in heels either x


----------



## Syd72

Ladies, does anyone know why some clinics start stimms on day 1 and some on day 2? Just curious.


----------



## Wez

*Beside the seaside* 

Not good news I'm afraid re my scan.

Went and dr D said it was no good, follicle remained under 6mm and no change from previous scan. Didn't shout cancellaton fee wanted just said pay for scan and we will call it a day, hadnt had a blood test either this cycle, so I have 2 more cycles to go.

Dr D was disappointed and was very kind, and admin manager was very nice about it all. 

Reading about the admin ups and downs...I smile as I do recognise their often topsy turvy actions  , but don't complain they forget to charge some people. no doubt they will catch up with those that got away with it , as for staff being told off my the Dr...yes I have seen it happen more than once...but he is very dedicated and he is the genuis so if someone isn't charting what he mumbles thru the curtains whilst he scans then so be it, they will be getting well paid to be in that position.

So I will need to see what happens next month, if and when I come on again and have a scan at 5 days

xxxxxx


----------



## Gemini40

Hi girls, I have been on this thread for a while, not over 45 but coming 41 with amh of 2.1. If you look at my signature you will see how many rounds I've had including de, all bfn. Have been trying naturally and kinda given up. Well, I am waiting on period and took an ovulation test last night because I heard they can pick up pregnancy too. It was negative. Just waiting on bleed to start today, had a cheapie pregnancy test in a drawer, thought why not. It is positive!!!


----------



## LuckyE

Hi guys I hope you don't mind me following this thread - I am 44 this month so relate to your journeys.

Anyway, I found some of your recent comments hilarious.

I agree - I dated a guy recently who had a terribly low libido. And he was blaming me for having too high. I think I'm just normal! Anway, I think it's more common than you think for men.

Spoke to my nurse the other day and dating came up and she said she found her fella of 7 months on tinder! She's 50s with grown up kids says you have to be clear what you want... He's 50 I think, too.

I agree, *Sunflowerseeds *, that treatment sounded awful. I wouldn't be happy.


----------



## kittykatkins

Oh wow, congratulations *Gemini *


----------



## Knockers71

Congratulations Gemini!  2 pregnancies on this thread now! 
Syd I think stimms are started on different days as some clinics call day 1 the first day of full flow and others don't, I could be wrong though!


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Knockers.  Huge congratulations Gemini.  Hi LuckyE.  So sorry about the scan Wez.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Knockers / Syd* - how funny to read your comments about your respective DPs' libido! Ha ha, my DP too! Well hollow laugh, as in if you didn't laugh you'd cry. His late hours at work never helped, but even when I'd used to try to give him advance notice of a couple of critical days on which to make himself 'available' ... it still too often degenerated into stress and nagging, how attractive! The revelation of finding out that DP had a high level of antisperm antibodies (when we went for our first ICSI Jan 2016) was both infuriating that TTC naturally had become such a pointless battleground and a blessed relief that we could finally stop doing it!

*Knockers *- I'm so sorry your ME is troubling you. I wondered if you'd ever tried any elimination diets? I know very little about ME, but just thought I'd maybe mention that a friend who has ME says she found that eliminating wheat (and being strict about all wheat products, including gluten free ones) in her particular case has helped with some of her fatigue and joint pain. Also, hope your DH is a bit freer from work next month for TTC naturally.

*Syd*- I'm now dying to know how tall you are! Miranda Hart-type 6ft 1" tall? I'm a boring 5'8" and always wanted to be just a little bit taller! I could even confess to a weakness for very tall men too (two exes were 6ft 5"), although DP is (only) 6ft 2" but calls me titch. 

*Wez *- sorry to hear about your disappointing scan, but still on the upside, I think it sounds like you've managed it really well. From bitter experience, spotting those cycles where it's not worthwhile going ahead with an egg collection has to be key. Great that you've 'saved' your 2 remaining cycles and wishing you much better luck next time. Do you know whether you'll go for a purely natural cycle, or try some stims again?

*LuckyE* - welcome! Would love to hear more about your TTC journey if you feel like it?

*Gemini40 *- I looked at your signature - is that just one IVF/ICSI and all the rest are IUI? Anyway, fantastic to hear that your determination has paid off with a natural *BFP*! Many congratulations! Please do post again - and let us know that you're progressing well?

No news from me, just waiting for AF (again). For the time being, the limbo/respite is actually quite nice.


----------



## Gemini40

Hi beside the sea, I had in total, five stimulated cycles, three iui, one OE icsi, one donor egg icsi. All bfn. My OE icsi was complete failed fertilization, no transfer and that's why I went to donor., which failed too. It has been six months since my last treatment so body is just doing its own thing now. I was ovulation tracking and taking vitamins. Will call doc tomorrow to make appointment.


----------



## Wez

it will be a case of stims again as i am obvs useless at producing a decent size egg on my own......tick tock times running out methinks


----------



## LuckyE

Hi guys

Thank you for making me feel welcome.

Gemini - I am so pleased for your natural BFP

Beside the sea - I am like you I am in limbo, and it's stress free! 

Syd/Beside the sea - 5'8" and 5'11" are massive. I'm only 5'6" and when I wear heels I feel like a supermodel so you guys...

Wes - sorry it's not good news but I am glad you like your clinic. 

 Everyone else. 

AFM - my history is I have a few stored embryos from age - 41-42 and have had a year dealing with fibroids. I'm good to go now. I'm single so no chance of natural BFPs unless I have a one night stand. I did try that with a guy - the one with the low libido - turns out he had a vasectomy! Why me, eh? When everyone has a story of that single girl of a certain age who got her baby by shagging a stranger a couple of times...

Was planning a visit to my clinic, which is in Greece, end of this month for a "Dummy cycle" and/or hysteroscopy but I don't think I can make it now due to work commitments. Off on holiday for 5 weeks after that and then I'll be back to put my embies in. Looking at April now but that gives me time to get my health in order. And start all those supplements again. Dreading that TBH. Otherwise I'm pretty positive.

LuckyE


----------



## TTCNK

Hi all, having posting issues via mobile.  Sorry been quiet , just been in wait mode. Had scan today and all looks ok.  Strong heartbeat and measuring 7w 4d . Another 2 week wait now for next scan. Dr was happy with size based on late ovulation but I still worry.  This is furthest I have got so have everything crossed!!!

Hope you're all well will go online for a catch up on the weekend!

Take care xx


----------



## eskeech

Hi Ladies,

I just wanted to introduce myself and say hello! You are all incredibly courageous and strong individuals. It's inspiring! When I decided enough was enough and I was going to have a baby I had no idea what I was getting in to. It's been a long journey of ups and downs condensed int a few months - and I haven't even had my first cycle yet! 

I finally decided on Serum. Using my own eggs for their two cycle special. I found a sperm donor I really like (I got to hear an interview). I like hi so much, I want to get to know him. I feel that is important, even though buying his sperm and shipping it to Athens isn't really in my budget. 

I'll be going to Serum in early February for all sorts of tests. We'll decide on a treatment plan for me and then I'll commence it when AF comes in March. I. Can't. Wait. 

I feel very positive. I think I have to be. If I keep reminding myself how the odds are stacked against me, I'll just get depressed and that is not a good frame of mind. I know if things don't turn out the way I dream about, I will be devastated. But there is no avoiding that. 

If the two cycles both result in BFNs, I don't know what I will do. Finances will have a lot to do with what course of action I take from there. 

I just want to be a mom so badly.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hello Ladies!

Sorry for the sabatical again just getting back to normal after the festivities and our holiday!

I cannot believe how much had happened since I was last able to post properly  
Firstly thank you to you all for all your posts in 2016 I know sometimes it's just snippets here and there and then we have time for longer posts but every single one has been appreciated - I am so glad I started this thread as I did not think there were so many women out there in the same situation as me so thank you to all of you wonderful inspiring ladies xx

Eskeech - welcome and let us know how you get on with your donor xx
Syd - I took Gonal F 300 on the tx and was fine with it? Good luck xx
Knockers - how are you getting on trying naturally? X any pointers for us ?
Wez - hello again and thank you for coming back to the fold good luck xx
Moon - how are you getting on ?xx
Sunflower - hello and I am jealous of your 12.8 AMH you have a great chance with that score xx
ESJ - how are you?xx
Lily - and you?xx
Lucky - good luck with your frozens xx
Beside - don't be going all quiet on me now - we need your input and valuable expertise and we want to support you too so let's be hearing from you - where are you at now what is your next appt / plan xxx
Sorry if I have missed anyone - oops! Xx
And for the 2 stars of the group Gem & TTCNK - congratulations!   
I am so pleased we have 2 BFP in the group in 2016 it gives us all hope and not to give up on trying xxxx

Update - for anyone who is into APPS I downloaded OVIA whilst on holiday - free and a great bit of kit for keeping track and giving you lots of tips too.
I tested this morning BFN   I went to docs on day 21 and had blood taken to see if even though I got the flashing smiley face on the opk I did actually OV so should know by Monday / Tuesday.
This was the first all natural no drugs cycle I had since before my tx in August so I am glad I am actually showing the right signs on the opk as haven't since July.
I did laugh at all the libido comments as the thread hotted up I am in the same boat as most of you we are tired 😴 and DH is an after midnight / first thing in the morning man but on holiday I said I felt like getting jiggly and he woke me up at 1am and again at 5am I said who do you think you are Peter stringfellow? 
Highly unusual for him - just shows you what a holiday can do - that was the morning when I pos for the opk and it flashed its face at me so the timing was perfect but not to be and would have been a good story if it was   Eh? Lol 😆 
Now to wait for AF in the meantime I need to get the weight off - surprisingly didn't put on anything whilst away but have managed to make up for that this week - aaarrgghhhhh! Xx
Just saw on my social media feed that a lady from Wimbledon Create was successful with her own eggs at 44 - she only had 2 at egg collection both fertilised and boom 💥 there is hope for us all xxxxxx


----------



## Blondie71

Eskeech hopefully you see this as i'm not sure if you aware open Id donor is totally prohibited in Greece and they take it very seriously as it costs the clinic their licence, there are ways around it and if you need more info just shout ☺ bottom line open Id must never appear anywhere on the shipment invoice or container as they will be obliged to decline it without refund to you.


----------



## kittykatkins

Those are great stats *Syd*, and wow... that lining!


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Well I've just had the worst week ever! I'm super stressed, although it's not to do with infertility, for once.

I was really expecting AF at the weekend to close off the epic fail of this last treatment cycle - the egg collection procedure has usually brought an earlier AF if anything - but even AF is Missing In Action. Then after a cursory consultation with Dr Google, I wondered whether Clomid (which they had used for the mild stimulation this time) could be responsible for a longer cycle?
"... In many women, the menstrual cycle is lengthened somewhat by Clomid. This is only a temporary effect while on the medication. Clomid cycles on the average are a few days longer than the average menstrual cycle length in the same woman without Clomid." 
http://www.advancedfertility.com/clomid-unexplained-treatment.htm

It doesn't really matter to the extent that I wasn't going to cycle this month anyhow - I'm going to sit this one out. But I'd like to try another natural modified (freeze all, if anything) cycle on my 2nd AF and obviously I can't do that until I've had the first one!

*Highlandgirl*- haven't you also experienced some long cycles when using Clomid for TTC naturally? It's great to hear from you again, and thanks for asking after me.

*TTCNK* - thrilled to read your update of 11 January that your scan looked great at 7w 4d. You must be 8 weeks+ now? Please do update after your next scan (is it next week?) as it would, it WILL be wonderful to read that you're still doing well.

*LuckyE* - It sounds like you have every reason to feel confident with those lovely blasts frozen at age 41-42. Have you read the posts of Flyby upthread? She had amazing success at Serum with a similar protocol and now has a little boy and still has a stash of blastocysts frozen!

*eskeech* - welcome! Your tests as per your signature (AMH, 4.19; FSH, 6. look great. Keep up the positive thinking! Will be interested to read how you get on at Serum in February.

*Syd *- Great to read your update, I was wondering how your cycle is going. Sounds like it's going REALLY well! A veritable egg factory in fact. Looking at your post:

"Right ovary has follicles of 17, 13, 12, 10 and 8. Left ovary has 33 x 15, 2x13, 2x12, 1x10". Is that right? Left ovary has 33 follicles of 15mm? Wow! That's gotta hurt! But even if you meant 3 follicles x 15mm, you'd have a total of 13 follicles, which is bloomin' marvellous. The clinic must have said they were pleased with you, no? Lining is also very good at 16mm. I've been told several times that anything above 7mm is potentially suitable for implantation. I would hazard a guess they might trigger you when you go back for your scan in 2 days - egg collection on Friday? Have they suggested that to you? All very exciting stuff! Very best of luck!

On another point, I'll be very sorry if you leave this thread though, it's been good chatting with you.

*kittykatkins *-  How are you? Are you cycling at the mo?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Dolphinx *- Just to answer your question "... One option is start up a new thread '40-44 with OEs' or suchlike?" What do you think?" Hmm, interesting idea ...

I'm clearly excluded from your target audience, but FWIW, I think it's cool what *Highlandgirl *achieved when she started this thread back in August. It's consistently been fairly busy and it's the traffic that makes it interesting. I've always thought it's great if any ladies in a similar-ish age group join in the chat (there's been plenty strictly speaking under 45, a fair few around 43/44 and a couple younger, I think).

For me, the real benefit is having a thread that focuses on trying to conceive with own eggs (or own eggs within a tandem cycle, as opposed to donor eggs) which I find is a more helpful distinction than sub-divisions on a strict age basis. Donor eggs is - unfortunately perhaps - a real line in the sand for me and I find any implication / suggestion that I should alter my choice to be enormously distressing.

Anyway, the thread seems to work on the basis that everyone is respectful of each other (resist any whining of the "OMG I've just turned 40" variety) and that it doesn't degenerate into some kind of AMH top trumps that would give the less fortunate among us yet another kick in the teeth/ovaries!

Overall, I just enjoy reading it, so perhaps not surprisingly, I think it'd be a great shame if you were to swipe half of the contributors! It does seem a little like swanning into a slimming world meeting and saying, hey thanks for starting this up guys, but I'm now going to invite some of you not quite so fat ones to a new meeting and leave the proper fatties to their own devices!

I dunno, there do already seem to be a few over 40's thread. (For example "Fabulous 40's: What to do after a BFN - Support and Chat Part 3" http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=332759.0 .) But still of course there's nothing stopping you just starting up the thread you suggest and see how you go. You'll most probably have a fair few takers. All I'm saying is that you'd be more than welcome to contribute on here (whether 'as well' or 'instead') if you want to. And I'd sincerely hope that anyone else who's _strictly speaking_ under 45, but has already joined this thread, would continue to post their updates / chat here too!

Right, going back into my bitter old bag corner ...


----------



## Syd72

I'm so sorry, I wasn't thinking when I posted about a new thread.  I love this thread and would like to stay here, I just worry sometimes that I might be annoying people as I'm 44.  Another forum I'm on we have an over 40s thread and a couple of people have come on saying "I'm 37 so I know how you feel"  Errr, no you don't, there's a world of (egg quality) difference between 37 and 44.  That's my only concern about being on this thread.  But then it's likely you're all much nicer people than me and not so stroppy   I'm guessing Dolphin has the same worries I do, more worried about upsetting people here rather than actually wanting to start a new one (sorry for making assumptions about you Dolphin).

Thanks kittykatkins, although after googling (why why why) I'm panicking that it may be too thick...

Seaside, I'm sorry you're having such a stressful time.  I know even less about clomid than I do about IVF so I honestly don't know what's going on but I hope AF starts soon for you.  

Oh God, I've just re-read my post - not 33 follicles of 15mm!!!!  3!  I'm sorry, I was typing on my phone, what an idiot!  The clinic seem to be pleased.  At my scan last Friday the first thing she said when she started was "well, we we never going to get loads" which was a bit of a letdown but then she did say I was doing well and I'm pretty pleased with those numbers.  Yes, last week she was suggesting ec this Wednesday or Thursday but the lady today said probably Friday depending on what they see on Wednesdays scan.  And thank you, I would love to stay on this thread.


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi all,

Hope you're all well. 

Beside - Thanks for your advice about Create.  I emailed them with our experience and Dr D rang me the following day. Had a really good chat and he acknowledged they'd been some problems which they were trying to address. Advised if we want to cycle with them then we will only deal with admin for payment only.  Our chat help to give us the assurance we will be looked after. Liked the interaction with Dr D so looking to go with them for our next cycle at end of January. Unless of course I get a BFP. Got a call with them on Thursday to discuss our protocol. 

Highlandgirl - Appreciate the compliment. Pleased it's not really changed since 2015, just hoping it will lead to a healthy baby.  Despite the result has still had down times when I get my AF and not a BFP.  Before the results my OH was putting the pressure on to look at donor eggs. I don't know if this will be the route we will end up taking but its been hard work trying to hold my ground and get someone to listen, that will give me a chance with my OE. 

Fantastic news we've got a few of the group with BFPs. Well done. Looking forward to hearing more positive news of how your pregnancies are progressing, as well as rooting for many more BFPs. 

My AF arrived 3 days earlier than expected last month and then I thought I was going to ovulate early. Had a surge last Tuesday then it faded then showed a surge again on Thursday, it lasted until Saturday afternoon, where if faded but only a bit. Very strange. Been dtd every other day, much to my OH's dismay. Very funny about the comments on low sex drive, my OH is the same.  

Think it would be a shame to split the group. Even though I'm technically under 45, I'm not far from being 45. Feel I've found like minded people who are having the same/similar experiences. You've all been a big support in helping keeping me going hearing about your experiences, receiving advice and of course your successes. 

Look forward to hearing more from you all X


----------



## Wunderwomban

Hi fellow ladies of fortydom!

I came across your thread last night - it was great to come across some inspiring encouragement. I couldn't put it down! Thank you. 

I'm 45 ttc and have felt a bit of a lone wolf out there, so for me it was a relief to hear I'm not the only one out there trying at a later age. I sometimes feel TTC over 40 is a bit of a taboo subject and I've only told one friend and that's tricky enough as she recently fell preggers just like that at the age of 41. Myself and DH didn't meet til I was 40 and time hasn't been right to try until 44. We started trying 7 months ago and have been finding all the BFN depressing. I think I was a bit overly optimistic and didn't realise how hard it would be. I look quite young on the outside but the reality seems my insides are not so! 

It's interesting to hear so many of you have been trying IVF. I had a hideous consultation with my GP. My DH had taken a couple of home sperm tests in September and transpired his sperm count was low, less than 5 mill which wasn't helping. Went to GP to request a proper analysis and was met with a 'it's not your DH that's the problem it's your age, dear'. She initially refused to fund DH's test on NHS because of my age, but I argued he had a right to improve his fertility regardless of my age. Meanwhile he stopped the vino, ate healthy, took arginine and CoQ along with 5 sessions of acupuncture (with a full on needle phobia!) and next test improved 200% with up to 15 mill which is still a bit on the low side but gives us something to work with. Meanwhile I had my Progesterone and FSH levels taken on day 21....levels were horrendous 0.8 for prog and 30 for FSH. I knew I hadn't ovulated that cycle anyway as no temp rise. GP phoned me up and told me I was in menopause, I would never have my own biological child and couldn't understand how I could possibly be having cycles. I was too stunned to say anything and that was that. We still continue to try but I have to say she totally robbed me of my hope and there's been a lot of tears at the thought of never seeing my own biological child. 

We are in communication with Reprofit in Czech Republic re DE, but I'm really struggling to get my head around it. I know logically it's the next best thing and I hear other DE mums saying it feels like they're totally yours but yet I fear I might feel disconnected from them. I think because I've not been trying for years I'm not mentally ready but I'm also aware of the loud tick tock backtrack in my life just now! 

I live in Scotland and I think only place that offers OE IVF up to 46 bday is GRMC...but they also acknowledged that I wouldn't be any better off statistically with IVF than trying naturally. It's interesting to hear about some of you taking clomid etc. Does that also improve quality of eggs or is that more to help you ovulate? I find as long as I take Spirulina that I have signs of ovulation and clear temp rise, but the minute I stop cycles go all wonky. Have just started introducing DHEA on advice of acupuncturist but so terrified it will send cycle dolally that I'm only on 10mg every second day at moment. After GPs words ringing in my ears I'm terrified I'm going to go into menopause at any minute. It's really hard not to become obsessed by TTC and I take my hat off to you guys for the mental resilience you have to continue to TTC for years. 

Good luck to everyone!


----------



## highlandgirl

Ladies 💋

Just a very quick update as other family matters taking over - my mum has cancer and this has raised its head again  

I started this thread as I felt alone in my quest to try and have a baby at the age of 45 with my own eggs and wanted to hear from ladies in the same situation - I have been overwhelmed at the thread and all of its contributors! 
I think if you are over 40 you begin to feel the issues of trying to have a baby and a number of lucky ladies on here have had a child in their 40s and are now trying for their second or third? Therefore in my opinion I think we need to support each other with our quest but please remember as others have said there is a big difference between 40 and 45-46-47 so as long as we all appreciate that we have the same goal but it will be harder for us all the older we get - sorry to say 
On the flip side we have 2 ladies on the thread who are pregnant  

Beside - my clomid cycle lasted 38 days the ivf cycle lasted 35 and I am usually 25-29 days.

I have kept testing but still bfn but I did get the bloods back from my day 21 test today - progesterone 32.3 which means I did ovulate so I am happy that I seem to be back to normal - well I'm not sure if I will ever be described as normal but I am 😊 xx

Marigold - welcome - I am also in Scotland - highlands - I had a full ivf treatment at GCRM at age 46 OE which was not successful however I did really like them as a clinic and I would suggest you both go there or wherever you choose for full fertility tests before you do anything else as at least you would know what your options are x
I have also tried Clomid but was not successful and now seem to be back to normal using clear blue digital fertility monitor taking a mix of pregnacare Chinese herbs coq10 omega 3 evening primrose oil acupuncture and ttc naturally at the moment x keep trying and keep us posted it only takes one egg and one swimmer x
Ps you need to have day 3 fsh and lh tests and only day 21 progesterone if you OV on day 14 as your progesterone test should be 7 days after OV x


----------



## Gemini40

Highland girl, so sorry to hear about your mum, that must be very stressful for you. I hope you have good support around you.

I was actually one of the first to respond to this thread because although I am younger I remember highland girls amh stats being exactly the same as mine  and that made me curious as I was told my only option was donor egg. It was probably this thread that encouraged me to not speed into another donor egg cycle and try and see what I could still do with my own eggs. I got a lot from just reading what others were doing in terms of vitamins etc. While there are ages differences i think what we all have in common is still trying with our own eggs after 40. I have been one of the lucky ones getting a natural bfp and long may this last! Had I went for another donor cycle my life would be very different tonight.


----------



## esj

HI All

*Highland Girl* I am so sorry to hear the news of your mum. I hope you are getting the support you need also. Really hope you have a positive outcome soon.

I too must thank you for starting this thread. I am not a prolific poster but I do follow and it has been a great lifeline for me too. Ive gone from 43 to 44 in the time I've been following but as Gemini says over 40 is the common denominator here and all the information and support has been a godsend.

My treatment is paused at the moment, part of the plan as I knew I would be super busy and under pressure at work in January. Plus the way the holidays fell meant it would have been rather rushed to do my final transfer over Christmas.

We got a top grade embryo at the last cycle so have 3 frozen now. Just waiting for my next AF (in two weeks) then hope to transfer.
Despite work I am being super healthy, doing all the supplements, fitting in pilates and will do some acupuncture. 
I wondered if anyone had any tips, comments on anything further I can do to create and optimum womb environment for the next step. Will ask the docs if i need a scratch, clexane, or any of the other extras that might help one of them stick!

Wishing everyone all the best and good luck. Thinking of you all xx


----------



## Syd72

Just a quickie as I'm about to do my morning injecti N then head off to work.

Firstly, Highland, so sorry for what you and your family are going through with your mum.

Can I just ask what the thinking is with clexane? Because I had a blood clot on my lung a few years ago my clinic are going to put me on it after egg collection until 12 weeks or bfn. They don't think I'm much of a risk but are doing it as a precaution. Could this help my chances?

Lovely to see all the comments, will post more later although I did also want to say to Marigold that you had your Fsh on the wrong day, I'm amazed your gp doesn't know that. Please don't give up, I've seen a couple of people get a bfp despite terrible numbers. I also didn't get to start trying for a baby til I was 43 so although it's only been two years it feels like so much longer.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi ladies

Thank you for your kind words - hugs to you all x
Just a quick post - Marigold Aberdeen fertility centre treat with OE up to age 50 x

AF started yesterday back for day 3 bloods tomorrow as the local hospital consultant asked for them to see if there is anything they can do and need fresh ones for them. Will get thyroid and full bloods etc as well but if anyone thinks of anything else let me know bear in mind this is nhs so they won't test for everything xx
Just more excited at being able to try again hopefully I get the flashing smiley face again soon xx


----------



## Blondie71

Sending you hugs highland girl at this super stressful time x


----------



## Syd72

So it turns out they made a mistake on Monday and my lining is only 8.7mm. Still only have one follicle at 18 or over, they haven't really grown much in the past two days so ec on Friday now looking unlikely. Felling a bit miserable. Also means I'all probably have to delay my flight home.


----------



## Gemini40

Hi dolphins, my understanding is you keep going with dhea until egg collected


----------



## Syd72

After all that I'm triggering tonight and ec Friday, so now I'm worrying my follicles aren't big enough, apparently there's no pleasing me. Can anyone give me any idea roughly what size follicle may have a mature egg, eg over 15mm? I know it will vary from person to person.

Dolphin, I had a blood clot on my lung 4 years ago, almost certainly because of my broken ankle rather than any disposition so they're just doing it as a precaution I guess.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Syd 

Sending you prayers and just wait to see what they can retrieve on Friday it does change daily but if they feel it's big enough I'm sure they will try to collect from it xx 

Thanks blondie x


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## Flyby

I think my trigger was always given when follicles were somewhere between 14-16mm. At my clinic they would rather get the eggs earlier than later as the embryologists can mature them further before fertilisation if necessary, but if they are too mature when collected I think it is harder to rescue them. F x


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.


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## Blondie71

Syd when I was at serum they give everybody clexane until 12 weeks pregnancy regardless, they also put you on prednisolone 5-10mg (unless person needs more) to keep inflammation in check and 5mg folic acid, they seem to think this helps things along.


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## Syd72

That's interesting Blondie, thanks.  My acupuncturist is big on keeping inflammation under control.  I'm a little overweight so do wonder if I should be on a higher dose of folic acid.


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## Agaamh

Dear ladies,

Happy New Year!
here a short update from me.
I just had a ICSI cycle with EPP protocol, gonal F and menopur, both in a high dosage.
I was pushing for this protocol as I read the EPP brings good results for oldies.
My doctor finally agreed becasue I had a good AFC (7). The result was only one oocyte while two follis (21 mm) and 3 (15 mm).
The rest empty 
Only what i did differently before this cycle I took a lot of supplements about three months such as. DHEA, Q10, Aloe vera, vit D and went for acupuncture.

My previous iCSI cycle was based on natural cycle, with clomid and low dosage of menopur, the result was three oocytes, two 8AA embryos, no preg.
I also underwent a long protocol with gonapeptyl and puregon, the results three oocytes, two 8AA embryos, no preg.

I really regrett that i pushed for the EPP  I should had go for the natural cycle,maybe with femara because of the poor lining after the clomid.
And I should not take those DHEA at least. According to the doctor, my age, and the agressive protocol was the main cause for this disaster.
now I have to break for two or three months to get my body clean from all those hormones. The time is against me, then I will be 45 and half...



TTCNK said:


> Hi all, having posting issues via mobile. Sorry been quiet , just been in wait mode. Had scan today and all looks ok. Strong heartbeat and measuring 7w 4d . Another 2 week wait now for next scan. Dr was happy with size based on late ovulation but I still worry. This is furthest I have got so have everything crossed!!!
> 
> Hope you're all well will go online for a catch up on the weekend!
> 
> Take care xx


@TTCNK my congratulations!!! may I ask you how old are you?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Just a quick reply and hope to catch up properly later ...

*Syd *- totally agree with *Flyby's* advice. As I understand it (information gleaned from treatment at 2 different clinics now  ) any follicles of 14mm or over should stand a very good chance of containing a mature egg. I think that 16mm+ is supposed to be about perfect. (Especially if you're older, I gather there's a theory that eggs tend to be better if not over mature - isn't it something to do with luteinisation?) I also think it's fairly typical to trigger when the lead follicle reaches 17-18mm, but the precise timing they pick will also depend on your E2/LH blood tests, rate of follicle growth etc. Also, the follicles always grow/ripen up between trigger and collection.

Your lining sounds perfect. I've always been told anything of 7mm or over should be suitable for implantation - they will have looked for a triple layer, as well as thickness.

Please don't stress, you'll be fine. In fact better than fine - so I'm very excited for you! I look forward to reading your updates from EC and beyond!

*Agaamh *- I'm sorry if I'm missing something. May I ask what happened to your recent ICSI cycle where they retrieved one oocyte? Is that egg/embryo still in the running?

Still no AF here. *Highlandgirl*, if you're reading, I keep meaning to check your posts to remind myself what you wrote about your cycle after taking the Clomid (and I had a pretty high dose of it at 150mg per day). I'm sure you said your cycles became longer?


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## Altai

Agaamh - sorry to hear about you cycle.  pls don't beat yourself up. While I totally understand your point about time/age, it's a good idea to try different protocols to see what's suit you best. It could have been the one for but you wouldn't  know unless you try. Its unfortunately quite expensive trials & errors. 

Ttcnk - my congratulations too. Sorry have missed you post.

Best of luck to all ladies on this thread


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## highlandgirl

Beside - my cycles were 30-38 days after my tx now back to normal x


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## kittykatkins

Hi girls, just to let you know I've been keeping up with everyone, but I feel a bit of a fraud posting now, as we have made the decision to switch to DE.  I'm only 45 yrs young, but hubby is 51 this year and he doesn't want to be an old dad, so whilst there's always a chance OE might work (I'm forever the optimist... you may have noticed!) We feel time is against us.  I'll keep an eye out on this thread and good luck to everyone x x x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Kittykatkins* - ... honestly, I don't think 51 makes your OH a noticeably 'old dad'! It's a state of mind (and health/fitness isn't it?) You should see some of the dads I've come across recently on school visits (DD starts school in September) which has been quite an eye opener as I haven't found dads too much in evidence at other pre-school activities. He'd fit in pretty well!

But anyway, wishing you the very best of luck. Are you not going ahead with the #4 Feb 2017 P-ICSI in Czech? Not worth one last roll of the OE dice perhaps? Have you already decided when/where if you're definitely going with DE?


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## Syd72

Thanks seaside, I'm terrified and excited for tomorrow in equal measure... Off to be shortly, will need to get the 0620 train tomorrow doe 8.35 ec.

Kitty, very best of luck.

Agaamh, so sport to hear about your cycle.

Flyby, thank you, good to know.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies

Praying for you syd x
Kitty good luck whatever happens either OE or DE - my DH is 52 and I am 46 so I know how you feel x

AF arrived I am on day 4 thank god I am back to normal and I had day 3 bloods yesterday - feels like I am back to square 1 of trying before the ivf and Clomid - just trying to keep positive x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Highlandgirl* - great news your cycles are back to normal - hope your day 3 bloods were good? 
Had you considered trying Letrozole/Femara tablets in place of Clomid? It's been mentioned before on here as helping you ovulate, like Clomid does, but without ruining your lining, like Clomid also tends to do. I was pretty shocked what Clomid did to my lining (like 3.5mm or something) and not terribly impressed with it lengthening my cycle either - at least I hope that's the reason. The lead consultant at my clinic told me recently that they would never use Clomid as part of a fresh cycle due to it's disadvantageous effects on uterine lining in older women - so even if you had a perfect embryo it would probably be unable to implant successfully. I suppose this would be exactly the same for trying naturally? Would the clinic who prescribed you the Clomid let you try Letrozole/Femara? Is it worth considering? What is your thinking on any more IVF (apart from that it's not exactly great fun, I suspect)?


----------



## Syd72

sperm hasn't defrosted that well so we're doing icsi. She said we could try a mix to see if any fertilise normally but I said no, icsi the lot! Now just have to see what happens overnight.


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Fingers crossed for you Syd. 

How many eggs did they collect? X


----------



## Syd72

Sorry, something went wrong with that post. 10 eggs collected.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd *- 10 eggs? Wowsers! Well done you. I'm sure your choice to ICSI the lot is best. Look forward to your next update. x


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

That's fantastic Syd. Well done. 

What meds were you on? 

Hopefully going with ICIS will give you peace of mind everything was tried. We had something similar on our last cycle and glad we opted for ICIS. 

Fingers crossed all goes well with fertilisation x


----------



## Syd72

Thanks sunflower, 375 of gonal f and cetrotide in the morning. I had a good AFC before starting though (for my age).


----------



## Syd72

Just to add to that, Oxford won't go any higher than 375 gonal f as they don't think there's any point, it's just throwing money away (their words). They said they can't even be sure going higher than 300 is worth it but they do go to 375 just in case.


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## TTCNK

Hi there - just to say fingers crossed Syd72!  Well done on the 10 eggs!!  Agaamh - in response to your question I am 46, 47 in November...  so there is always hope at our age!  have good weekends everyone!


----------



## LuckyE

Hi guys sorry I’ve been away but busy with work but I’m here to offer my support so have just caught up.
@eskeech – Hi, it looks like I’ll be cycling around the same time as you. Mine will be April. 
@Hi dolphinx, welcome.
@besidethe seaside – yes. Flyby inspired met to do the clomid banking. I just hope there’s a lucky one in there!
@welcome Marigold.
@highlandgirl so sorry to hear about your mum. I hope your family can overcome this. Thank you for starting this thread.
@sydd – my clinic loves clexane as it helps blood flow better in the uterus. They also recommend aspirin. I really believe in it.  Brilliant clutch of eggs. FX for good fertilization rate.  
@kittykatkins – goodluck with DE

Welcome anyone else I've missed.


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## highlandgirl

Good luck Syd - wow 10 eggs - well jel lolxxx


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.

They've called to say 8 fertilised. I know nothing about icsi but assume that would naturally result in a higher rate of fertilisation?


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I think ICSI tends to result in a higher than otherwise rate of fertilisation, but not usually 100%. This seems to be backed up by what I can tell anecdotally from posts of other women who collect lots of eggs, maybe around 50 - 70% fertilise with ICSI as a rule? I think most people would be THRILLED with 80%! Whatever, it's brilliant that you have 8 in the running, so (assuming you don't aspire to be the next Octomom) you have several to spare!


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## Syd72

I am thrilled  just wondering if many will still be going on Monday. Still, I'm a step closer.


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## Sunflowerseeds

That's brilliant news Syd. Congratulations. 

Your treatment with a lower dose has done the trick. I've been told the same about high doses for treatment. Some eggs are not meant to grow so whilst you may get more eggs they will be only a few that are ok. Think it can compromise the better eggs if a clinic waits for the smaller ones to catch up. I certainly felt like that about my last cycle. 

I'll be rooting for you that all continues to goes well for you. 

Take care x


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## eskeech

@LuckyE
You'll be cycling at Serum? Do you have any advice/tips about Serum? Athens? It would be great of we were there at the same time, as I would love to meet! I'll also be by myself, as I'm single. 
I actually don't know when I'll be cycling. My af is suddenly a mess. I din't know how I;m going to figure out my flight/accommodations if I can't predict my af. What do you do?
Best of luck to you and thanks again for the welcome!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Well I'm day 30 today and still no AF. I'm hoping its due to the Clomid this cycle (which I've read can produce long cycles) but as I had failed egg collection on day 10 - i.e. ages ago - surely that would override any lengthening effect? Oh who knows, but I know its maddening.

*Highlandgirl*- I had a skim back through your posts to remind myself what you said about long cycles following Clomid. I notice you said that your Clomid cycle lasted 38 days, the ivf cycle 35 days, when you're usually 25-29 days. That reassured me slightly, so I'll try to leave it a couple more days before I message the clinic in a panic. I also noticed your comment (on 16/01/2017) that your mum has cancer and that's rearing its head again. I'm so sorry to hear that - and I'm sorry I missed your post at the time. How is she doing in the circumstances and how are you? It must be a stressful time for you. Please shout up if a rant is any help. Are you still TTC naturally amidst all this?

*TTCNK *- hope everything continues to go well with you? Please do update on your next scan!

*Gemini40 *- trust all is well with you too?

*Syd *- keeping my fingers crossed that all your embies are still going strong tomorrow morning. They'll be taking them on to blastocyst I expect? You must have a pretty good chance of a five-a-side team by day 5, I would've thought? All v exciting.


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## LuckyE

*eskeech* yes I'll be at Serum. It would be great to cycle together! Tips - really be involved in the treatment. Their suggestions. They give you choices which is good. It looks like you're doing all the tests to clear up any difficulties. What's the test for adeno? I had some in 2015 - was removed not sure if it's come back though. Didn't think you could tell unless biopsy?


----------



## Gemini40

Syd, brilliant numbers, hope they continue to go strong for you, tomorrow not long away now to hear the news. 
Besides the seas, I think the egg collection some how delays next period when they don't put anything back in. I know mine was by two weeks.
AFM, tomorrow will be 7 weeks. Normal NHS scan appointment for 15th Feb. I could get asn early scan but can't muster up the courage at minute.


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## Agaamh

@Syd72 congratulations for your egg collection!!!



TTCNK said:


> Hi there - just to say fingers crossed Syd72! Well done on the 10 eggs!! Agaamh - in response to your question I am 46, 47 in November... so there is always hope at our age! have good weekends everyone!


@TTCNK - thanks for your reply. I wish you all the best. You gave me some hope 



Altai said:


> Agaamh - sorry to hear about you cycle. pls don't beat yourself up. While I totally understand your point about time/age, it's a good idea to try different protocols to see what's suit you best. It could have been the one for but you wouldn't know unless you try. Its unfortunately quite expensive trials & errors.


@Altai thanks for your answer. I will think positive!

@Beside I did not have a transfer after my failed cycle. My period came about 14 days after egg collection. I think ,clomid can delay the next period due to the late ovulation, as I was on clomid , my period came later than usual.

all the best for all ladies on this thread!


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## eskeech

@LuckyE,

There is no definitive test for ando (other than having a hysterectomy), you're right. I'm going to see my gyno on Wednesday to clear up the likelihood of having ando and/or PCOS. As I mentioned, in the last few months my cycle has gone a little crazy with spotting in-between af twice now and one missed af. I definitely have some excess facial hair. Not sure how any of this will affect IVF. I do have one fibroid, but it is really small and shrinking. I thought my numbers were good...

How did you know you had ando? What did they remove?

Thanks for the advice regarding Serum. I really like how, from the beginning, they were proactive about my situation. More than me!! If it weren't for Katie, I wouldn't even know that endo can com back - my gyno said it was gone and wouldn't pose a problem for pregnancy. Well, I've learned that os wrong. As about 1/3 of women with endo have a toxic uterus that prevents proper implantation. 

I leave for Athens in 2 weeks! Very excited to see the city and get the ball rolling!


----------



## Flyby

Beside, once I had a cyst the cycle before I was waiting to have treatment, my period was just not coming and Penny told me to get a scan on about day 29/30 as I always usually had 24 day cycles. It turned out there was a cyst and we just had to wait for it to disperse on its own before my period would come, I think it did within the next day or so. I had IVF the cycle before and I think somehow the meds were responsible, but it felt so horrible when it wasn't coming, I was in such a panic. Penny was very relaxed though and told me it would disperse on its own within the week. They are very common apparently, more so during IVF, so perhaps this is what's happening and it will resolve by itself soon. I hope so as I know how stressful it can feel!!


----------



## Syd72

Morning all.  Thanks for the congratulations 

I'm writing this down quickly here whilst I remember and so I have a record.  Clinic have just called to say I've got 3 that are doing exactly what they should be at this stage, so 8 cells and either graded 4 4 or 3 3 - I don't know if all clinics have the same grading system?  One that is the right cell number but is looking a bit vacuolated (sp?) so they'll keep an eye on that one, and another that is the right number of cells but looking a bit irregular, they're not sure at this stage if that's just because it's in between stages or not.  The other 3 are very irregular.  We're therefore going for a 5 day transfer on Wednesday.  

I hope everyone is ok.  Gemini, congrats on 7 weeks.  Eskeech, not long to go!  Seaside, any sign of AF yet?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - Many congratulations on having 3 perfect embryos plus 1 almost perfect! As you've identified, not all clinics use the same grading system, so for example both clinics I've attended have used grade 1 as the top grade. But of course it doesn't matter what they call it, does it, having 3 at the very top quality is marvellous! Wishing you the best of luck for Wednesday's transfer. x

*Flyby* and *Agaamh*- many thanks for your notes of reassurance on my late AF, 31 days and counting. *Flyby *yes I was thinking perhaps I should ask for a scan if AF doesn't show it's ugly face soon!


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Seaside.


----------



## eskeech

@Syd72,
Thank you and congratulations! I'm very excited for your ET Wednesday!


----------



## TTCNK

Hi all.  Syd great news in your progress ! 

A quick update, had scan, 9 plus 4 so caught up a bit, Dr S happy.  Harmony test this week and nucal bloods.  The will do full comparison on 15th Feb ... so another 2/3 weeks of waiting but progress ..


----------



## Gemini40

Well done Syd, great news exciting times for you


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*TTCNK* - thanks for sharing your update. It's wonderful to read that you are 9w 4d already, and about to have your Harmony test! What is the 'full comparison' they are doing on 15th Feb? I'm wondering whether it could be the Harmony blood analysis + another scan, or perhaps CVS? Anyway, I hope it will give you full reassurance so you can relax and enjoy your pregnancy. Really, really well done you! x


----------



## TTCNK

Hi Seaside, thank you and here's hoping you'll be joining Gemini and I soon.  I have all my fingers crossed for you - and there is always hope.  As for long cycles, my cycle before this BFP was 35 days ( normally 29 /30) - I think after all the meds we've been on regular does not seem to be a thing.  If you'd asked me in November last year if I might be where I am today I would never have thought it possible but I remained determined.  This thread has been awesome.

As to your question.  They are doing the harmony test as standard.  I said I would still be worried as it is not definitive as doing CVS.    However Dr S said in his view and that of the the fetal medicine doctor is it is better to do Harmony and then a super intensive nuchal scan / bloods.  This avoids the need for CVS.    So they will take nuchal bloods this week along with Harmony and then bring both of those to an hour long nuchal scan where they going into minute detail measuring the baby earlobes / nose ....etc    Whether this will put me at ease or not I don't know.  He seems to think age is not enough to go for CVS you need evidence from Harmony or nuchal...  Anyway next " reassurance scan" on Feb 6th and he'll have harmony results as early indicator.  So another roller coaster few weeks ahead.. xx


----------



## Syd72

TTCNK great news on the scan. Gemini, congrats on 7 weeks 

So I'm PUPO. We've ended up with one at early blastocyst stage and two still at day 4. The clinic recommended putting back two and seeing how the other one is looking tomorrow so that's what we've done. OTD 5 Feb.


----------



## unicornlover

Hi everyone,im new on here and i could really do with some advice,i cant really talk to many people about my situation for a few reasons and im going out my mind not knowing what to do.
im in here as im 45 and want a baby with my OE ,been to a fertility clinic before xmas and was told my best chance would be natural ivf with DE in a 3 cycle package...im fit,healthy,dont drink or smoke and very active,no medical problems..but doctor said its my age thats the problem.
i have had 2 previous pregnancies that sadly didnt happen but really thought i would not have trouble concieving as did both times before without trying,i was a lot younger though.
My current partner who i have been with for 10 years really does not want kids,i have always told him i do and always thought he would come round to the idea.we are now in a situation where i really want to try ivf as we have not got pregnant naturally since we have been together,hence me going through the fertility testing to try and find out why,he is not bothered at all about it,but im devastated as its what ive always wanted,we are now arguing about it all the time as he says why should he agree to something he does not want,but im saying cant we at least give ivf one go and if that doesnt work i just have to accept it.
The clinic i went to said the chances of it happening with one cycle is very low,but we have just bought a house and really dont have the funds for the 3 goes..i feel if i really push this we will end up splitting up which i really dont want and neither does he,we live/work together run our own business and i would have to be the one to walk away if we did end it, as its all in his name.
I can hardly bring the subject up now without us falling out about it and i just cant see a way through it,im getting more miserable by the day having to put an act on all the time in front of family,friends,staff etc and all i can think is we are wasting precious time i dont have.
i hope it was okay to put this here but seemed the most appropriate to my situation,thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this any advice would be truly appreciated x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - congratulations on being PUPO! It sounds like you might have a blastocyst to freeze too? Look forward to your next update!

*unicornlover* - I can't pretend I have the right answers, but just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're having a tough time, I can only imagine your dilemma.

You say your OH doesn't want kids and he says "why should he agree to something he does not want", but if you don't give fertility treatment a try, he'll then be forcing you to agree to a situation that you don't want either. It sounds like you want it more than he doesn't want it, if that makes sense.

You wrote that the clinic told you your best chance would be "natural IVF with DE in a 3 cycle package". Did you mean DE/donor eggs? I'd never heard of donor eggs being offered as a 3 cycle package before, nor referred to as 'natural IVF'. I thought 'natural IVF' would use own eggs? As a matter of interest, may I ask which clinic you consulted?

I guess you can only have a cold hard look at whether you can afford (or borrow...) the funds for 3 cycles of (I'm assuming own egg) IVF. If you can do it and that's your best chance, then you should go for it - it sounds like it's what you want. If you can't fund 3 cycles then why not still at least try one own egg cycle? If you go ahead and make the initial arrangements would your partner go along with it - i.e. sign the consent forms and give a semen sample? (If he didn't, I'd probably be inclined to say, 'well this treatment is what I really want to do and I'll use donor sperm if I have to'. So it's playing hardball, so what.)

If over the 10 years that you've been with your partner there's been plenty of chance of conceiving naturally (i.e. you haven't been using contraception for a good while) but you haven't conceived, then maybe there's an identifiable reason why you haven't; blocked tubes, or low sperm motility, or anti-sperm antibodies (like my DP) which IVF/ICSI could overcome.

The obvious thing to say about own eggs is it's best to try a cycle now, as soon as you can. And in the event that it didn't work, you don't necessarily need to close the door to donor egg treatment in the future, even in a couple of years perhaps, when you've had time to raise more funds.

I don't know what else to say, but I wish you all the best in moving forwards, as you're clearly not happy with things as they stand.

For my part, I still haven't got my AF (day 33 today) and I'm getting really fed up / borderline worried now. I've emailed the clinic to ask e.g. whether I should have a scan to query whether it's a cyst (or goodness knows what's going on).


----------



## unicornlover

Hi thank you beside the seaside for your thoughts..
firstly i have had blood tests all okay,scans all okay,sperm count test was okay,nothing obvious jumped out..took a lot of persuading for that to happen
but was a relief when it did..my gp was great really tried to help with arranging scans etc went to an nhs hospital for that who said i would not get funding due to age hence me going private to see where i stood.
I went to create as near to me and had been looking at the website for a while and liked the idea of less drugs etc..i did mean the 3 cycle package was for my oe but he said de would be better due to age.
If i could have one chance at this i would want to try with oe my partner would not consider de anyway when i have got him to talk about it.i could try and get it going on my own but they were surprised he wasnt with me the first time,mainly all couples there then.if i had the money to do it all myself i would do it tomorrow but on my own i havent 
Thanks again for replying hope you get your af x


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Which Create did you go to?  I've been having treatment at Create.  I always go on my own, DP went to one initial consultation then turns up to give his sperm sample.  He's on board with it, but really negative about our chances of success, so he basically just goes through the motions.  But that's fine.  He hasn't got the time off work, nor the patience to go along to all appointments with me, but I think that would be quite annoying / unnecessary anyway.  Maybe it's coincidence you saw mainly couples?  I see a lot of women on their own, or with their Mums etc.


----------



## unicornlover

The birmingham one,yes maybe i was just feeling it that day being on my own..
i told him he wouldnt need to come with me other than for doing samples
really liked the doctor and felt it was easy for me to get to for appointments etc...so would definately go back if he agreed to it.the one cycle is affordable for us its just i would need him to agree with it all which is the problem


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## HelB69

Hi
I'm new on these boards, but am looking for advice from other over 45 year olds trying to get pregnant with own eggs.  I am currently 47 and trying to conceive.  I had one cycle at a well-known London clinic which didn't go to egg collection for various reasons.  Basically I had a cyst on my ovary, so then I had to go on birth control for 2 weeks.  After this, I started IVF with Merional but it took 2 weeks of stimms before they decided that I was a poor responder and that it would probably be best for them to try and support the one follicle that I had.  At this point, the whole process had taken about 6 weeks start to finish and we were due to go on holiday at the end of June, which was when I would have had to go for egg collection.  I felt very disillusioned about the whole experience, as I didn't really realise at the beginning that there was a chance stimulation wouldn't work for me.  In the end we decided to stop the cycle, as they explained that we would have to pay for the egg collection even if we didn't get an egg (which was a big risk seeing as I only had one follicle).  Anyway, I wasn't too concerned, as despite the wasted cash, I did feel that at least we had some information to go on after this baseline attempt.  Subsequently I have been put on DHEA, which is a whole other story.  I haven't had a period since being put on it, and I felt VERY uncomfortable with this.  However, the consultant seems to think it can be successful for poor responders of my age.  I have now finished taking the DHEA and am due to go back for a scan to see what is going on with my lining.

My main question is, is it better to go for natural IVF rather than stimms if you are a poor responder?  If so, which clinic/s are the best for this in over 45 year olds.  Also at the beginning one of the consultants I saw advised me that at this age I have as much chance conceiving naturally.  Is this true.  I am very confused and would just like some advice from people in the same position.


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

Besides - it was years ago, before fertility testing/treatment but I was given meds to bring in my AF, isn't it possible for your clinic to give you meds? 

Unicorn - I'm looking at Create Birmingham and I've seen a woman attend by herself. My OH can't make all appointments and they didn't seem to think it was a problem. They even suggested frozen his sperm if he couldn't make EC. Have they tested your AMH/AFC as it will help to give an indication of treatment options? That's what they advised me. Also liked Dr D approach. 

In terms of trying naturally, we tried using artificial insemination one month, alternating with dtd and because I had a surge unexpected we tried a day and half rather than 2 days. thinking it my help, anyway we discovered my OH have a low volume, which I know shouldn't matter (quality over quantity) but on occasion they was very very little. Not sure how long this had been happening but hopefully it hasn't to others trying naturally.  Think this could have happened in previous months. 

Syd - really pleased it's going well. Hope it continues. 

TTCNK and Gemini - love hearing of your successes. Look forward to more updates.

HelB - I was advised that it's best to focus on fewer eggs/embryos as the higher doses can impact on the quality of egg quality. In my previous cycle lots of eggs collected and very poor fertilisation, especially compared to my first cycle. I also was in a lot of pain post EC and had a day 2 transfer. It wasn't a very good experience. After this experience im opting for a mild IVF, advising less impact on my body. 

Good luck all X


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## unicornlover

Hi sunflowerseeds

Thank you for your response,think it was just me then, by the sound of it ..about going on my own,  was feeling a bit apprehensive what they were going to say that day,i think if it actually happened that i had treatment i would be so happy it wouldnt bother me,apart from ec where i would have to get someone to come,i did have an AFC which he said was no better or worse than what he expected to see in someone my age,but seemed happy with lining etc,didnt have AMH or at the NHS hospital i went to.
I used to think i would never be brave enough for any fertility treatment as im a total wimp with needles and all that but really feel i could do this as the thought of having a baby would mean everything to me.


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## Syd72

Hi ladies, just a quickie to say the clinic have left a message to say nothing for freezing so if the ones I currently have on board don't work then it's over for me. My OH was only willing to give this a go once (plus any frozen from this round). Feeling pretty anxious.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - it seems like you've taken a knock with what the clinic said today about nothing for freezing? Well don't forget they were considering your _third best_ blast! You've already had put back the winner and the runner up out of _eleven_ eggs, and it seems those blastocysts were perfect quality. Please remember you're PUPO and must have a really fantastic chance of NOT being 'proven otherwise', I would've thought! Whereabouts are you at the moment? Are you still in UK? If so, I bet it's tough without your DP? When are you planning to go back to HK?

*HelB* - hi, from a fellow 47-year old. Allegedly. I don't feel it and suspect you don't either? What on earth should 47 feel like anyway?

On your question about whether it's better to go for natural IVF rather than stims if you are a poor responder, I think the theory is that if you give high doses of drugs when the ovaries are only capable of producing a couple of eggs, then it's just wasting money (on the additional cost of the drugs) and may compromise quality by trying to 'force out' eggs that shouldn't have made it - what *Sunflowerseeds *already said.

I also understand that some doctors favour drug protocols without any LH (so e.g. use Gonal F which is FSH only, rather than Menopur / Merional which are FSH + LH). It's something to do with undesirable/premature luteinisation, but I can't remember what.

Generally I'm more persuaded by the merits of very low dose drugs, rather than completely natural/no drugs at all. Natural IVF has a relatively high risk of ovulation prior to egg collection and you'll only ever collect one egg. Low dose drugs might collect 1 or 2 eggs (or perhaps 3, depending on the protocol) which ought to give a slightly greater chance.

As regards the advice you had that at this age you have as much chance conceiving naturally as with IVF. Statistically, the odds of conceiving with IVF are probably very low. Statistically, the odds of conceiving naturally are also very low. I think it's just really lazy science/poor maths to say that therefore, you might as well give up on IVF and try naturally. To take my own example, my chance of conceiving naturally - quite apart from my age - is zero. DP now has such a high level of anti-sperm antibodies that fertilisation without using ICSI is probably impossible. So IVF should at very least raise us up off zero chance. And there could obviously be any number of reasons why a couple aren't conceiving naturally quite apart from female age, where IVF might well help.

*Unicornlover* - Honestly don't worry about the IVF needles. They're nothing like the needles you might be envisaging from blood tests or vaccinations. They're really quite fine/short and obviously you inject into fat; what you can pinch on your stomach or thigh. It can seem fiddly at first but actually is pretty idiot proof, well, I can do it!

Good point that *Sunflowerseeds *made about freezing sperm. As it means your OH could give a sample at any time prior to your egg collection, maybe that would help? Apparently they split the sample into several frozen straws so they'd have enough for more than one egg collection (maybe several) if need be. Sorry if TMI but it basically means OH ejaculates at home, waits 2 days, then ejaculates at clinic. Signs a few forms. Job done. If that's going to be a problem, you can even arrange with embryology to produce an off-site sample (basically do it at home in the sterile receptacle they provide) then take it to clinic within the hour.

*Sunflowerseeds *- Thanks for your advice on meds to bring on AF, I think I'd vaguely heard of those so that was interesting.

Still no AF for me, now 34 days. I've stopped worrying - at least for now. I'd sent a query into the clinic and received a very thorough email from the consultant. The gist is that it's likely that I'll skip the period I was expecting, but get AF on the next expected date; it should be self-correcting. It's most likely to do with my reaction to the Clomid: we tried 3 times the dose that's typically used for ovulation induction with timed intercourse, and for more days, and we knew (from scans prior to egg collection) it had dramatically thinned my uterine lining. It's possible, if less likely, I could have a cyst from the egg collection. I could go in for a scan but it won't change the existing plan, which was not to do any further treatment after the 2nd AF anyway. So if I do skip a period completely, I just go back on my next actual AF for a review, and hopefully more IVF treatment.

So I guess I have some enforced time off worrying about IVF and could switch, temporarily, to something more 'relaxing'; like fretting about leaving the single market ...


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## Beside_the_seaside

https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/video-gallery/video/323/
"Many couples come to CHR ... in New York City, after being told that their chance of achieving a pregnancy with IVF is less than 1% if they wanted to get pregnant with their own eggs. Dr. Norbert Gleicher, CHR's Medical Director, explains that even for patients with very low ovarian reserve, this "less than 1%" prognosis is often far too low an estimate, as long as patients can still produce a few embryos in an IVF cycle. At CHR, even women over 42 and 43 still have 5-7% chance of pregnancy if they have 2-3 embryos for transfer."

https://www.centerforhumanreprod.com/video-gallery/video/pregnancy-rates-in-women-43-doubles-with-early-retrieval/
"CHR's research found that retrieving eggs early in an IVF cycle, when they are still in the 14-18 mm range, vastly improves egg/embryo quality and pregnancy rates for women over 43. (In a typical protocol, eggs are retrieved when the follicles are about 21 mm.) Dr. Norbert Gleicher, CHR's Medical Director, explains why egg quality is better and pregnancy rates higher when eggs are retrieved earlier in women over 43 who are undergoing IVF cycles."


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## Syd72

Thanks seaside, I was feeling a bit down, possibly also overtired from the flight as I was not long back. Only one egg made it to blast out of the 10 retrieved, the other one they put back was still at day 4 same as the one they were hoping to freeze but it obviously didn't make it to blast. I actually forgot to check the grade on day 5, only checked on day 3,  not sure I want to know now, think I'll just wait and see.

So if you've skipped a period, when are you next due?


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## eskeech

Thanks, Seaside. 
Those links are incredible!


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## unicornlover

Thanks....BTS  

Thats good to know about the needles and sperm info, AND we have had a very serious chat about everything and we dont want to end our relationship so he has agreed to one cycle!cant believe it,so have booked a follow up appointment at Create,just hope that although they recommended the 3 cycle plan as my best option we can only really afford to do the one.. and i want to do it asap,so shocked he has finally come round.

Best wishes to everyone going through any kind/stage of fertility treatment i havent had chance to read through all the posts yet,this is so good for people going through things to share their stories and experiences with others x


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## highlandgirl

Hello ladies

I am so glad we have some newcomers to the thread thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experiences xx
I cannot believe how much happens when I don't look for a few days!
I started to write on a pad all your names to do personals but then realised I was losing the plot so her goes with what I have written sorry if I miss you out  
Beside - hang in there my clomid cycle was 38 days   but I'm back to regular last month and hopefully this month so you will get AF sorted xx glad to hear you can get a bit of a rest before your next ivf cycle - I did actually look at the whole offering from create the other day and I thought of you - I think if I was to try anything again I would go there for natural / mild as it looks very good and the 3 cycle package just makes sense so I pray you get another one in the freezer and you can get them all in to cook soon 😘 
Syd - so pleased you are pupo take it real easy I wish I had taken it easier don't think it would have affected the outcome but you never know xx
Unicorn - welcome to the thread and I am so pleased you managed to sort out having your cycle with your OH - I know it can be so stressful but in the end you got what you wanted which you deserve xx fingers crossed for you and I am looking forward to see how you get on at create xx
Gem / TTCNK - how are things keep us posted and give us hope! Lol xx
Helb69 - welcome to the thread and keep us updated xx

I am now on the second month of trying naturally but I did get a peak again on day 11 on the clear blue same as last month so I will go for day 21 progesterone again and check if I have ovulated. 
Not going to take anything for the moment although I did enquire about femara and the clinic gave me the usual age line so I have decided just to stay natural for the moment xx
I seem to have forgotten that I should be concentrating on losing weight during this whole time and I am now going to concentrate on me and my general health, weight and wellbeing and I am hoping my golden egg will appear soon x


Sunflower / Agaamh / Eskeech + anyone I have missed - keep posting and updating how you all are please xx
And to any more lurkers come and join us you know you want to.... lol x


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## Altai

Hi ladies
Have been lurking here from time to time. But not posting much. 

Ttcn- good luck with the harmony  test. I think cvs shouldn't be taken so lightly as there a small risk of mc with it no matter how small still the risk. But I do understand your concern was myself in your shoes. 

Gem, syd - fx for 2ww. 
Highland - best if luck fir this month. 
Beside - just enjoy your time off ttc thing. 

Unicorn-great that oh has agreed to IVF. Have you looked at possibility of cycling aboroad? This way you could possibly afford 2-3 cycles depending where you go. I heard that Ukrainian and Slovakian clinics are very cost effective without compromising quality of treatment. I wish somebody had told me before I started my IVFs. 
I don't want to sound too negative but chances that the  only cycle would  work are extremely low. Probably better go straight to de if it's only one cycle you'd  afford. It could take more than 3 IVFs even for good prognosis ladies. Generally IVF is a numbers game, 
And in meantime maybe  try ovulation induction with fertility clinic. If tubes are clear and like you said sperm is good, then why not? some fertility consultants believe that ivf and trying naturaly have the same chance at that age. 

Hel- I believe that better go for stimms than doing natural IVF.  I was a poor responder myself.  But got more eggs with mini IVF (pills plus low doses of injectables) than with full stimms. 

Hi to all who I missed and best wishes to everyone on whatever stage of fertility treatment you are 

A.


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## LuckyE

TTCNK – congratulations. Good luck for the Harmony scan
Sydd72 – congratulations on being PUPO. It only takes one
Eskeech – good luck. 
Unicorn lover – I’m single and went to create for consultations. But I was highly aware of couples. You kind of are, I guess as it’s a process that you’d like to have support.
Highland girl – really hope the golden egg will appear soon. 

AFM - nothing to report. trying to lose weight... 
Hello everyone else.


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## eskeech

@ Sydd72, I'm rooting for you and very excited! Just as everyone says, it only takes  one.
@Unicornlover, I feel for you you. I have very limited funds as well. I'm doing the 2 cycle package at Serum for 4,000 euro. I echo the idea of traveling abroad. I feel good about Serum, but there are many other excellent clinics that offer an excellent value without compromising on quality. Best wishes!
@TTCNK & Gemini, Yay, you! I've never heard of the Harmony scan... What is it?
@Highlandgirl, Sending you my best wishes. 
@Helb69, From everything I have been told by other women and what I have read online, it seems that lower stems are much better for women over 40. Our ovaries are fragile and don't do well with high stimms. I think low stimms is highly preferrable to no stimms as you'l (hopefully) get more than one egg. 
@Altai, Welcome! 
Everyone I missed, hello! I'm excited to follow you on your journey.  

Me? I'm feeling very depressed. Like I don't want to go to Athens. I just want to stay home curled up in my bed, sleeping. I think I'm scared to death at the very likely possibility that I will never have a child. A week ago I was excited and feeling positive. Now, the exact opposite. 
I think I might have PCOS. My gynecologist barely looked at my blood work. My LH is slightly above my FSH. My AMH is 4.16. I thought that was excellent. If I do have PCOS, how would that affect IVF? My gynecologist said it wouldn't. I'm feeling very confused and lost. I don't think I can do this. I feel like a fraud.


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## dolphinx

Hi again all, still lurking but have been updating the Jan/Feb cycle buddies thread. I have a few burning questions about current cycle which I will discuss with my doctor but would really appreciate any opinions from you knowledgeable people.

I was very pleasantly surprised about the number of eggs retrieved after a very slow start, but then was a bit disappointed with the number of immature vs mature eggs retrieved and am now wondering if this something to do with the protocol? Basically there was 6 mature of 12 retrieved so only 50%. I know 6 is still good and don't want to sound ungrateful but I would really like to try and understand the cause of this.

Because I am older consultant recommended an EPP protocol which was 5 days of oestrogen patches and 3 ganirelix (same as orgalutran) before AF then mixture of menopur and gonal-F (cycling in US where menopur seems the norm). Menopur contains FSH and LH in 1:1 ratio.

After reading one of Dr Sher's post I am worried that I 'overcooked' with LH, especially since the antagonist was started so late. Partly because the nurse forgot to order an E2 test! Anyone have knowledge of effects of too much LH during stimms?

Here is Dr. Sher's post: http://drgeoffreysherivf.com/ivf-factors-affecting-eggembryo-competency-during-controlled-ovarian-stimulation-cos/

And my cycle numbers (I think only follicles >11mm were counted):

CD2 AFC9 E2 33
CD7 1 follicle E2 175
CD9 3 follicles No E2 - nurse forgot to order! (cue massive stress about not starting Ganirelix)
CD11 6 follicles E2 913 (Ganirelix supposed to start when E2>300!)
CD12 9 follicles E2 948
CD14 EC - 12 eggs

Mature eggs - 6, fertilised - 6. Scheduled for 3-day transfer on Tues.

*eskeech* - go to Athens! You have said it yourself. Every day is different and you would kick yourself for giving up. Allow yourself some miserable downtime but don't give up.


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## LuckyE

hi eskeech - sorry you're feeling down. It's so overwhelming sometimes, isn't it? Especially if you're doing it on your own and you don't have anyone to share your fears with.  From what I've learnt, and I'm sure someone will correct me, PCOS sufferers usually have abnormally high AMH levels. Is that figure abnormally high? If you do have PCOS then I think what normally happens is you get lots of eggs but not necessarily all of them good quality. In the past people I've known who have had PCOS have supplemented with (myo) inositol - 

You can do this!!


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## highlandgirl

Eskeech - go to Athens!


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## Altai

Lucky - when you are going for ET? Will be rooting for you.
I was planning my combo cycle in March but not sure whether I'd go for it. 

Eskeech - I too had thought that pcos sufferers have abnormally high amh. Yours is 4 , so surprisingly you were diagnosed as having pcos. 
Anyway, my amh was 16.1 at 43, never lived up to expectations. I never got more than 7 eggs. 
I think more important is your AFC.


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## eskeech

@Altai,
My gynecologist doesn't think I have PCOS - I'm just very concerned about my hair loss and my excess hair on my face/back. I don't know what else it could be? It looks like I will soon know what my afc is! Took forever to get them to tell me...argh.

@highlandgirl & LuckyE,
Thank you for your comments! I'm going to Athens! It is just really hard being single and living in a new town where I don't know anyone very well. I feel very alone with this. There is nobody I can talk to and I'm overwhelmed. I'm just really, really scared. I guess we've probably all felt that way.

@dolphinx,
I can't say I know more than a doctor, but I do know for certain that Dr. Sher isn't someone I would ever trust. He prescribes dexamethasone, "Dex," to his patients. It was because of him that I initially questioned my clinic's choice to do a short protocol. After a TON of research and asking questions on here, I've concluded a down or long protocol isn't best for older women. While I am sure that it has worked for some, it seems not to be the best initial course of action. Here is the Dex article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/01/ivf-on-steroids-the-dangerous-off-label-use-of-dex-during-pregnancy/267187/

Everybody else, please update!
Baby dust to all


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## Syd72

Hi all.

Thanks Eskeech, I don't know about the excess hair but hair loss can be connected to thyroid problems, have you had that checked?  I'm really sorry you're feeling so low, you're so incredibly brave doing it on your own.  I find it hard that, now treatment is done, my oh doesn't want to know anything until testing day.  On non-treatment months he gets cross if I even mention symptoms (not that I'm much of a symptom spotter), he just can't cope with it, there's no way I can talk to him about any of this at all, we haven't even mentioned the words IVF or the fact that we're in the tww, I'm sure he doesn't know when testing day is.  But still, doing it alone is the next level again.  You will be fine though.  When are you off to Athens?  A friend of mine just had her little boy after her first iui treatment, she's also doing it alone.  A bit younger than all of us   In her late 30s.

Thanks to all the well wishers.

Highlandgirl, thanks for that.  I'm actually slightly worried I've been taking it TOO easy!  Got back to Hong Kong on Thursday, OH has been off since Saturday due to Chinese New Year and we've basically been slobbing around the flat watching tv and doing nothing!  Been out to meet friends 2 or 3 times but that's it.  I'm back to work tomorrow so have very late conference calls every night this week (connecting to the US is a pain from this timezone) which is not fun.  Do intend to carry on taking it easy thought, OTD is Sunday but really feeling the urge to test sooner.  Had a bit of cramping but I know that's a side effect of progesterone.

I knew I was pregnant both times last year when I didn't get my usual pre-AF spotting as that's been consistent every cycle for the last 10-15 years.  I'm assuming I won't get the spotting this time due to the fact I'm using progesterone suppositories?  I have no idea if the spotting is progesterone related, the one time I had my day 21 bloods my level was really good.  Does anyone know if this is the case?  Thanks.

Welcome to the new or recently returned ladies 

Beside_The_Seaside, how are you getting on?


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## esj

Hi All.
*Syd72*congrats on your transfer and being PUPO. 
Good to see so many new recruits to this thread too..The more the merrier!
*Beside the Seaside* / *Highland Girl* I hope you're both doing well. Thanks again for your knowledge and support to everyone on here.
I had a bit of a meltdown at the weekend. Transfer time is just about here. Got AF today and off to clinic next Mon so I guess transfer will be soon after. I am absolutely terrified at the prospect. I guess its the culmination of what has been a 5 month journey (way longer than I expected) and I'm feeling very emotional. 
Trying to find ways to stay positive, I know I should be meditating really. 
Not sure what I should be doing around the transfer and 2ww. What kind of rest/work balance is best? Can I carry on with usual exercise- pilates? running? cycling? (not that I've done much since christmas due to being busy at work apart from cycling around but was planning to resume this week).
Asked the doctor last week about scratch or clexane but he said as Ive been pregnant before it suggests theres not an implantation problem. 
sorry to rant just any advice/tips would be welcome.
Anyway, good luck to everyone. 
xxx


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## esj

I need to add as I don't have a signature here- I may have been pregnant before but have never gone full term and had a child.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thank you so much to *ESJ*, *Syd*, *Highlandgirl*, *Altai *(and anyone else I've forgotten on this busy thread) for asking after me! I've nothing to report other than being day 39 with still no AF. If I've just skipped a period (for the reasons the consultant explained to me) I should expect my next AF to arrive about mid Feb; maybe 11th/12th Feb. I'll go back to the clinic for a scan and hopefully start another egg collection cycle.

I'm still periodically seething angry at the advice I received to skip any treatment in November, during the cycle in which I had a colposcopy. Advice which was uneccessary, incorrect, and not shared by the majority of consultants at my clinic, as it turned out. But it's about as useful as wishing I'd got cracking with this project 10 years ago, so I'm _trying _(through gritted teeth) to let it go.

*ESJ*- gosh, your transfer time does seem to have come around quickly! Please try not to be anxious (easily said, I know) as you did so brilliantly well to get a top quality frozen embryo from each of your 3 cycles. I am totally envious! Will you have all 3 put back at once? As regards exercising post-transfer during 2ww, I would've thought gentle exercise would do you good? Perhaps just avoid any terribly strenuous exercise, but primarily because you don't want to be worrying after the event as to whether it had been such a good idea. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and wish you all the best.

*Highlandgirl* - thanks for your kind words. Good to hear from you again and best of luck with trying naturally. If you're minded to reduce a bit of weight, had you tried/thought about trying a very low carb diet like the Dukan diet? I've read a few stories about some quite old women (like 47, like me) falling pregnant naturally whilst on the diet. It would seem to have some basis in science if you think about the several studies that have been done (albeit not focusing on advanced age) about improved IVF success rates with high protein, low carb diets.

*Syd* - wishing you all the very best for your 2ww of course. I think you're far less likely to spot whilst on progesterone, whether or not you're pregnant. Although from personal experience, the presence of spotting hasn't meant that I wasn't pregnant, as I've spotted (and worse) in all of my pregnancies, including the successful one. Cramping on the other hand is a very exciting sign! I seriously doubt it's due to progesterone. It's only ever happened to me earlier than expected during 2ww when I've actually been pregnant. Just saying ...

BTW, did you get any advice about flying during 2ww? I know hundreds of women have treatment abroad and some seem to fly on the day of transfer too, so I guess it must be fine. I just wondered if there was anything you shouldn't do: like walk through those full body scanners at the airport? I'm so sorry to sound like such an ignorant, thick person, but it did occur to me that if I'm ever fortunate enough to make it as far as having a transfer, I'll be running into summer holiday territory and hope to be flying short haul somewhere.

*eskeech *- I have lost the plot and I'm sorry I've forgotten what treatment you're planning at Serum, Athens. Feeling negative is part and parcel of wanting it desperately to succeed I think. I do hope you get your courage back soon. Have you found anyone on the specific threads for Serum who might be cycling at the same time as you? I think lots of ladies arrange meet ups which must be fun. I get the impression that whether a woman is part of a couple or not, lots end up staying abroad for at least part of the time on their own, because obviously a woman needs to attend more clinic visits than the man or donor/frozen sperm. I'm thinking of *Knockers71 *experience of travelling to Gynem in Prague for example. I know Knockers had to spend some time abroad on her own.

Which reminds me, *Knockers71 *if you're reading, hope you're doing OK? How is your ME - I'd love to hear you were finding an improvement? Are you still trying naturally?

Good luck to everyone else on the thread - it's lovely to see it so busy. Even if catching up takes ages!


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## Beside_the_seaside

... *Dolphinx *- I meant to ask how was your transfer today?

I'm afraid I'm not in a position to add anything insightful to your questions, but as you acknowledge yourself, I'd say 6 mature eggs is still a marvelous result - particularly given that all 6 fertilised, the fertilisation rate is remarkable, obviously could not have been better!

As regards the point that 'only' 50% of eggs were mature, I understand that oestrogen priming can help to stop the premature recruitment of follicles and even out follicle growth, but you were on that anyway, so that's good. I suppose it might have been technically possible to delay your egg collection in order to let some of the smaller follicles 'catch up' and reach maturity. The risk with that must be that the lead follicle(s) get too large/overripe and/or you might ovulate prior to egg collection. And you probably know about the theory that taking eggs when they are smaller (but still mature) is better for egg quality in older women. So it seems your clinic has actually looked after you pretty well?

On the Dr Sher article. It's interesting, but please don't forget that still _loads _of women (particularly early 40's like you) do succeed with an FSH+LH combination drug like Menopur/Merional.

Really best of luck for your 2ww and hope to see a positive update soon!


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone thanks beside for asking after me. My ME is no better unfortunately, winter is always bad for me. We've been trying naturally this month and I'm due on this week, so we will see. I'm 46 on Sunday too which was always my mental cut off point, but I guess we will not be not trying after this, if you know what I mean! We don't use birth control so the possibility is always there. 
I still read and check in sometimes so it's great to see more people on here, and two pregnancies as well which is fab,
Good luck those of you on your 2ww or about to have your transfer! Xx


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## dolphinx

Just back from embryo transfer. I was anxious to see how the crop of 6 had done over the last 2 days as I hadn't heard from the lab. Very relieved and pleased to hear they had all made it to day 3. I then had the 'talk' about how many are likely to be chromosomally abnormal due to my 'advanced age'  and the embryologist suggested I transfer the best 5!! After nearly falling off the chair I asked if I could reduce that to 3 and see how the other fared with making it to blast stage for freezing. Embryologist then fetched RE who reluctantly agreed to transferring best 3 so here I am. Pretty pleased overall and hope I haven't done the wrong thing with not transferring 5.

My previous cycle (a year ago) was nowhere near as good, 4 eggs retrieved, 2 fertilised and one 8-cell and one 4-cell at day 3. The scientist in me (I am actually a scientist!!) want to know why. On one hand it seems common for cycles to vary but on the other I am wondering if my new found commitment to healthy living (getting rid of BPA etc. etc.) and crazy supplementing has actually done some good? Incidentally my AMH also increased a little from last year to this year.

Other factors are many and could include different protocol, different drugs, different sperm (long story - save that for another day!!), different clinic.

*eskeech* - sounds like we are in a similar position. I am also single living in US, but originally from UK. Its tough and get can get really lonely sometimes. Especially with less of your friends around you (not that I'd tell many in any case but even so). One thing I would say though is that I started this journey with partner in tow but it was a difficult relationship and I had concerns in the back of my mind about bringing up children together. Which only added to the stress. I have honestly found it easier going it alone compared with managing it in a bad relationship. Whereabouts in US are you? Can I ask why you chose to go to Europe vs US?

*seaside* (and eskeech) - thanks for the feedback on the protocols. And good to hear your opinion on success with LH/FSH mixtures. I've calmed down about the immature egg % in light of the great fertilisation rate. Seems a bit like win one/lose one in this game . My previous tx in UK were short protocol and my best one (at just turned 3 I retrieved 12 but only 7 fertilised. That might have been due to immature eggs also but they didn't provide that level of detail.

I feel like its a bit of a medical minefield out there with all the differing ideas and advice. Fertility is notoriously difficult to test in clinical trials (because who would sign up for the control groups...) so there is a lot of guesswork involved until new theories can be proven. Combine that with the money-making potential of the private clinics and determination of their clients and you have a recipe for taking advantage of people. Or maybe I'm just paranoid  I'm saying this but don't always follow my own instincts and have been swayed by all sorts of stuff I would have ignored in other areas of my life. I'm sure you are all more than aware of this but its good to let it out sometimes!

But whilst I'm on this topic I have to admit I'm interested to compare the approaches taken by the US clinic because I am being funded by insurance and therefore wouldn't get the go-ahead for anything they deemed 'unproven'. I guess its a halfway house between NHS and private clinics in UK. The US hospital does take people who are self-funding so they are still motivated to achieve the best success rates possible.

Sorry for really long post. I'm confined to sofa (self-imposed - worried about embryos falling out )

*Syd *- you must be getting nervous. Try and think of the things that have gone well and try not to obsess over imaginary symptoms or lack of 

Good luck to everyone else whatever stage you are at x.


----------



## unicornlover

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to say a big thank you to anyone who replied to my thread=>

Highland girl thank you for your lovely words 
Altai there is no chance of going abroad at all,just not an option for me and i know if i only have one chance to do this the doctor might say my best chance is de as well but i want to do oe if it doesnt happen then i just have to accept it.
Lucky E how did you find Create?its the nearest, easiest ,to get to fertility clinic for me,which is important as i work full time shift work and i can fit going in my break..which will help if i have to go a few times,which i presume i will be.
Eskeech thank you for your best wishes 

Good luck to everyone on this journey xxx


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## eskeech

Hi Ladies,

@dolphinx,

It really is tough. For me, not so much because I'm single, but because of an overriding state of being alone AND lonely. It took me 8 years to come around to the idea of doing it by myself, but once I did it was a revelation and I'm just happy I finally did. So...why Europe? Primarily cost. A clinic near me (I'm about 2-1/2 hours outside of Seattle - where are you? may I ask what brought you to the states?) would've cost about $15,000 for one cycle, not including meds or extras. I'm going to Serum which is $4,000 for two cycles, not including meds (which are far less expensive in Greece than the US). I'm rather disgusted by the "fertility industry" here. Other countries have free fertility tx for women... Lastly, I used to spend a lot of time in France and Spain, so initially I thought I would do it in one of those countries where I am very comfortable. That didn't work out, so Athens it is! The only drawback to going to Europe is the amount of time I have to spend there. 

I think paranoia goes hand in hand with ART. I'm going to see my pcp tomorrow to hopefully get some thyroid and immunology tests ordered: I have endo! I might have implantation issues! I've been reading everything I can about what might possibly be going wrong with my body.  

It seems to me that you made an excellent call. If I were in our lucky shoes, I would've done the exact same thing. Congratulations! Anxiously awaiting an update...

@Seaside,
It's so frustrating being upset with docs and clinics because we end up feeling powerless over our care. I had to call and call just to see my gynecologist before April and when I finally saw her, I got 3 minutes. None of my questions were answered to my satisfaction. Grrrr.  

Isn't being on day 39 and no af good? 

I found out today than my most recent scan had a least eight follicles on each side, so for a minute I was happy and positive as can be! But I had no one to tell. As my endo is my biggest worry, I quickly let that come and take over my joy and I shed tear or two. I'm still going to Athens -- it's just as you said, feeling negative is part of wanting to succeed. 

I will definitely make my way over to the Serum thread and try and connect with some ladies heading there the same time as me. As far as I know, I'll likely be doing some sort of short protocol. I bug Katie (who is wonderful) all the time and she's been very honest with me, which was off-putting at first, but now I'm extremely grateful.  She's the only person I could tell about my AFC and she said it was very encouraging! I've booked my ticket as broadly around my af to provide adequate time for tests before I start cycling. I have one af between then and now, so things may change on exact date, but for now I'll be there mid-March to early April. Thank goodness for miles award tickets!!

@esg,
I can only imagine how nervous you must be! I'm freaking out over everything and I haven't started to cycle yet! I haven't figured out how to stay positive. But I can say distraction helps from being negative/anxious. For me, that means movies. As for exercise, they say not to do anything too strenuous and not to start anything new. I would want to play it safe and do stuff like yoga/pilates and walking/swimming. Low impact and good for your overall physical and mental health.

@syd72,
Thanks for thinking I'm brave. I feel mostly stupid. I'm almost 44, about to open a boutique, and flying all the way to Greece for tx...I'm totally crazy. 

My TSH is ok (last two tests were 1.26 and later 0.53), T4 is 1.17. Hopefully, I'm going to have T3 tested tomorrow. The hair is very puzzling. It could be a reaction to certain stressors in my life. But the texture of my hair has completely changed in the last 12-18 months. It was way/curly and now it is straight!

I can imagine it feels very isolating not to be able to talk to OH (what does OH stand for?). I'm sorry. I guess we all handle the uncertainty in different ways. What's most important is that he's on board with you and having a child. Still, I feel you.

@Altai,
Keeping my fingers crossed for your oe!

@Everyone else,
Wishing you baby dust on whatever part of tx you're on!


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## eskeech

Sorry for my novel above!


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*eskeech* - I liked the novel! Although I felt a bit sad for you the way you said you were in a 'state of being alone AND lonely', such that you had no one to tell about your great follicle numbers with. But do come and tell us about your good news, we'll all be excited for you! Fantastic that you're all booked to go to Serum mid-March. Please share your updates? And I hope you'll find a like-minded lady in a similar position to meet up with.

Prices for IVF in USA are freakishly high aren't they! I suppose it must be the result of people getting IVF paid by their medical insurance, they'd never get away with it if the majority self-funded, surely? I can hardly get my head around insurance paying for IVF either, I don't think UK private health insurance policies tend to cover IVF do they?

You asked 'Isn't being on day 39 and no af good?' Well, it's day 39 of a treatment cycle in which the only product from the egg collection procedure was one 'fake' egg (empty zona pellucida). So it's nothing but annoying - I couldn't possibly be pregnant, if that's what you mean. Consultant thinks I've skipped a period (too boring to explain why) and am technically on next menstrual cycle. They'll scan me again after my next AF (assuming I get one ...) and hopefully I'll go for another 'freeze all' ICSI cycle. I couldn't dare hope for your great AFC though; the heady days of 8 follicles on each side seem sadly to be behind me. Less than 18 months ago I'd consistently have 13-ish AFC. But how quickly one's expectations change, these days I'd view anything more than one follicle on each ovary as a positive result!


----------



## dolphinx

I'm in Boston, MA and very luckily infertility coverage is mandated for health insurance in several states including MA. And even for single women. Took me a long time to wake up to this fact!! Otherwise you are correct that the costs are prohibitively expensive and I dread to think what the drugs cost. So one extreme option would be to go get a job in MA, NJ, NY etc.?!

I reckon there are women who do that. I just read my insurance docs today and it seems that under 45s can get 4 cycles. Not bad at all. All polices would be different I expect. I did have to go through various tests to prove that my response would be 'adequate' to justify the insurance paying. This was the clomid challenge test (which I'd never heard of) and usual AMH/FSH.

*eskeech* - I'm not sure its that much cheaper in London after you include all the add-ons. Although the drugs probably are. It seems that the European clinics are the best bet for many ladies.

If it didn't work out in US my next plan would be mini-IVF at Create in UK. But only because it is fairly local to my UK place so less travel cost.

Hope AF shows *seaside*. I had a really long cycle after the said clomid challenge. I'll have to look up how long it actually was.


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## Syd72

Hi all.

Eskeech, sorry, OH is other half.

Knockers, sorry to hear you're having a rough time still.

Seaside, totally understand your periodic anger.  I sometimes think about the first consultant I saw about my fibroid who said no point in doing anything about it, it was almost a year later when I went back for a second opinion, had it removed and immediately fell pregnant.  If only that first consultant hadn't been so dismissive or I had been braver I could have gotten started on all of this a year earlier...

Interesting regarding the flight advice, basically there wasn't any, they new I was flying that evening and all she was worried about was that I keep taking the clexane rigidly.  I did, in fact, go through the full body scanner.  I'm assuming they would have warned me not if if it was an issue or there would be some kind of indication at the airport, here's hoping anyway!  When I was speaking to the Lister about cycling with them I asked how soon I could fly after ET and the doctor said I could go straight from the hospital to the airport.  However, the wife of a friend of mine had a baby through IVF recently, they cycled in the US and were not allowed to fly for 10 days after transfer.  So like all things fertility related there seems to be a mix of information out there.

Hope everyone else is doing ok, hi to any of the new ladies I haven't already said hello to.

Three days to go until testing but I know I'm going to cave and test early.  Not really feeling anything at all other than possibly slight preiod-like cramps.  Boobs are a lot less sore than they were a few days ago so not sure if that was related to the progesterone pessaries (in which case presumably they should still be sore) or the hcg shot.  Ah well, time will tell I guess.


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## eskeech

Hi Ladies,

@Syd72, thank you for the clarification! Interesting about flying. I have been thinking about this because a courier for donor sperm said they can get by customs without having the sperm be subjected to x-ray. I can't imagine how. But it made me think about going through the scanner. I think I can refuse, and just be searched by a person. This is probably what I will do, just in case. Having said that, 8 years ago when I was pregnant I went through the scanner without a thought. But I was further along than just after a transfer. 

@dolphinx, I went to a University near Boston! Lived briefly in the South End, I think... Right behind Copley Square. 
Regrettably, I was living in NYC a few years ago and had no idea about insurance for IVF. But at that time, I was fully immersed in remarrying and having a partner. I've come a long way.  Unfortunately, I can't move. Money is very tight and I am about to open a boutique of my own in my town. If the 2 cycles at Serum are unsuccessful, I will really have to consider my options, as taking so much time off from a brand new business isn't really good for business. It's a terrible position to be in. I have to start this business to earn a living, and I have to start IVF ASAP to fulfill my deepest, most ardent dream. 

@Seaside, also hoping your AF shows up soon! Any signs it might be coming? 
Sorry to sound so sad. I've had a really, really bad 8 years that is only now getting better. My friends are scattered. I told one and she just remarked that she had never heard of the clinics. I was hoping for something a little more personal, you know? But she's 44 and obviously not having children OR has already tried and couldn't. There is likely more there then meets the eye and I'm not taking it personally. The others are all extremely busy. I did tell a woman I recently met here and regretted it. She didn't really understand IVF and wondered if I could have a child and operate a business. A valid concern, but as I am already torturing myself with this conflict, I was just hoping for some support. I can't tell my mom for various reasons and that really only leaves my therapist (who is positive I will be successful) and you lovely ladies! So thankful for this forum! I might tell one friend when I see her in NYC, but I don't know. It just seems like one more person to whom I will have to deliver bad news. 

I do have some more good news! Not a big deal, but I did extensive thyroid testing and all is very normal. Yay!


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## dolphinx

*eskeech* - just a thought, you said your AMH was 4 something. Is that ng/ml or pmol/l? The US tends to use ng/ml.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I really hope it works this (first) time for you. What you describe is exactly like my IVF pregnancy. Boobs had been massively sore early on, then really much less so by the time I tested. Mainly I had period-type cramps earlier than I would've expected for AF cramps. I'm very hopeful for you - but please do try to hold out on the testing front as long as you possibly can. If you only have a faint line the first time you'll drive yourself (even more) nuts! Tell yourself you need to be sure you're not picking up HCG from the trigger shot (isn't it detectable for about 10 days, or something?) as that might help your patience?


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## eskeech

@dolphinx,
It's 4.16 ng/ml.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*eskeech* / *dolphinx*: you probably both know that the conversion factor is [pmol/l] = 7.14 x [ng/ml]. So *eskeech*, if your AMH value would typically be reported in the UK as 29.7 pmol/l ... well all I can say is that's just massive! No worries there.


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## eskeech

OOPS!
Sorry, dolphinx, it's 4.19 ng/ml.


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## eskeech

@Seaside, 
Thank you! I didn't know the conversion rate at all. It's so encouraging to hear it's good! From what I've read, all my tests point towards responding well to stimms, but I have the age problem of having chromosomal abnormal eggs to deal with. 
And endo. 
I had been paranoid that I had pcos (which inflates the AMH), but am happy to report that that just isn't the case. My mom had me when she was 35 (which was old back then) and went through menopause quite late. so I am praying that I have a "younger woman's" reproductive body! 
There is still a mystery as to my excess facial hair (which is dark and fine, not coarse like PCOS ladies get) and _extreme_ loss of head hair. It's definitely not my thyroid, as I have had every test under the sun. My progesterone is normal. My iron is normal, but not yet optimum for her re-growth (I'm on a supplement). I'm guessing the hair loss is stress-induced from some traumas about 6-8 months ago. But the hair on my face/back is a mystery...
Thanks again for making me feel so good!


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## dolphinx

Whoah, 4.16 ng/ml = 29.7 pmol/l !!


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## eskeech

You all are too darn sweet! You're going to inflate my head so big I won't get through airline security!


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## Syd72

Morning ladies.

Eskeech, those are great numbers 

Seaside, you're absolutely right, I shouldn't test, but I did.  BFN.  I know it's still two days to OTD and it's not over yet but I'm pretty sure it would be showing by now, I'm 9dp5dt (or 8.5 days given the time difference and clutching at straws...).  We have a big day with OH's daughter on Sunday, basically our Christmas celebration, there's a huge amount of stress out here right now as his ex is, as always, causing a lot of problems between him and his daughter, the last thing I need is a shock bfn on Sunday morning when we've got 8 hours of fun Christmas celebrations ahead of us.  And to be honest, it was a shock, which is really stupid given the odds at my age.  I didn't necessarily expect it to go full term but I honestly was expecting a BFP.  So that's it for me, OH only agreed to one round of IVF and I know he won't be moved on that and to be honest I don't think another round would be the right thing to do anyway for a host of reasons.  We'll NTNP but given stress levels at the moment I know sex will be off the cards for the forseeable so I think that's it, I'm done, don't get to become a mother.

Sorry for being miserable, I'll keep checking in to see how everyone is getting on and will update after the official test.


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## eskeech

Syd72,
I am so, so sorry you got a BFN. I would've tested early, too. But it isn't over! Test again on Sunday, just to be sure.
You sound so sad, stressed and frustrated. 
As for not becoming a mom...are you going to be ok with that? You know there is DE available and it doesn't matter how old you are because the uterus doesn't age. That baby would very much be yours genetically. There is so much proof out there about that. 
I only ask because I wish someone had asked me during the 16 years I was with my ex and all the signs said he didn't want kids (like making me wait until I was 36 to try). 
Just take a time out and decide what it is in life that you really do want. What is most important to you? BIG questions, I know. I wish someone, anyone, had asked me those questions a long time ago. 
I am still hoping you get a BFP for Sunday. And I am sending you a cyber hug.


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## Syd72

Thanks so much eskeech, that's really kind, I'm now crying at my desk 

No, really not ok with not becoming a mum but nothing else to do.  I would go the DE route but OH won't.

There are a whole host of complications with our set up, I won't bore you with too much detail.  In brief, my partner is a fantastic dad and as long as I've known him (22 years) all he's wanted is a whole bunch of kids.  We were together 20 years ago, split up because I didn't want to settle down (and I'm still happy that that was the right decision, despite everything), he got married (lovely wedding, I was there), had a baby, got divorced.  Even 10 years on from that split it's still EXTREMELY nasty and he is under almost unimaginable stress from all the terrible things that regularly happen. He and I got back together two years ago when, much to my surprise, I fell in love with him!

I thought long and hard about doing this on my own a few years ago and decided that wasn't right for me (which is why I have such admiration for those of you that do), the most important thing for me is to be in a great relationship with someone that truly loves me, and that I truly love, and we have that.  It's not perfect of course, but we're very happy together.  So although I'm not ok with never having children, I would be even less ok with losing him. 

Sorry, that did turn out to be quite a lot of boring detail after all   Thank you again for your kind message.


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## eskeech

Oh, Syd,
I feel your pain. I'm sorry if I made you cry asking my stupid question. Just know that it's all going to be okay. As much as you're hurting now, and the hot tears are raining down on your lap, and you don't feel like you'll ever be able to get through this or the Christmas festivities on Sunday, you will. You have a loving partner to support you. I can hear that you are going to be ok; you are one _very_ lucky woman to be in love with someone who is good to you. I think what's most important is that you tried. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all, right? You have love. What more is there to life the having someone love you, and loving them in return? I know what that is, and I'd give anything to have it again. 
Try and be good to yourself. Whatever that means for you. This is hard, but it will get easier, I promise you that. We humans are incredibly resilient. 
More virtual hugs,
E.


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## Syd72

I was crying because you were so nice, not because you were asking stupid questions, you weren't   It was a very valid question.  

I am lucky, he's a pain in the a**e half the time but I still love him...

Thanks again x


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## highlandgirl

Syd - I am so sorry to hear about your test I did have high hopes for you my lovely xx
But eskeech is right you are better to have tried with someone who ❤ you and who will be with you no matter what.
We more experienced in life ladies have all been through really upsetting tough times yet we still stay strong as you don't realise how strong you really are until life really tests you. You seem to have passed the strength test by the story you bravely shared with us and just know that you will be ok.
Plus you did get pregnant twice naturally so there is always a chance Syd xxxx
We went through the worst year of my life last year with various personal and business situations and I still went through the ivf tx after nearly separating from my DH it's very hard the whole marriage relationship thing eh? He really wanted to have a baby but we had left it too late for various reasons... 
But he was only ever happy to try 1 round of ivf so that's why I tried the clomid and may still try the femara if I start to not ovulate regularly again so there are other options ..... 💋 
Sending you a big squeeze and yes you still have until Sunday to test again so you need to wait till then xx


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## highlandgirl

Ps they are all a pain in the parts sometimes half the time sometimes the whole time    x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I'm in a rush this morning, with no time to really do this justice...

I remember something the very wise *Flyby* said about the timing of frozen blastocyst transfers; something about how her clinic director had told her that slightly older women tend to do everything to do with the conception process that little bit slower. So 8.5 days post 5 day transfer is not only early, it's _very_ early, from that perspective. _Please _don't give up hope for this cycle just yet. You know you still have time to get a positive result on OTD.

It is such a lovely story about you getting back together again with your DH, so romantic! (Although I'm sorry for the troubling ex-wife baggage). I so want you to feel it's a totally _complete _happy ending. So even if it turned out that it didn't work this cycle, maybe your DH will come around to another OE IVF cycle in a little while (given the option to freeze sperm and all that...). AND of course remember that you have fallen pregnant naturally - and pretty easily - following your fibroid removal. So you may well fall naturally again. Of course you must be feeling terribly low today, but you're not to be giving up now! x

Hi *Highlandgirl *- Yes, well put! DH/DP's are a total 'pain in the parts' more often than not! I'd recommend trying Femara/Letrozole. Clomid completely screwed with my lining and Femara apparently doesn't.


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## Syd72

Thanks so much for taking the time to write Seaside, that's really kind.  I had also read that about fet's but sadly this wasn't frozen, it was fresh, I'm not at all sure that it applies to fresh.

He still has 6 straws of sperm frozen so it has occurred to me that when I'm next in the UK I may be able to do a natural IUI, I'll speak to the clinic about that.

Thank you Highlandgirl x The trouble with naturally trying is when my OH is stressed his sex drive goes down to zero...  And you're right, they are all frequently a pain in the parts


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## dolphinx

*Syd* - symapthies, those BFNs are brutal to put it plainly.

But thinking of the positives, even if this cycle is negative surely you're still in with a good chance. After reading your post and also post from *highland* I was wondering if you OH's truly understand that 'one go' at IVF really means 3 cycles. Even for much younger women most clinics do very well selling the 3-cycle package to up the odds. We all understand this as we've studied hard - but the guys not so much?!

Any chance of some gentle persuasion on this basis? Feel free to tell me to mind my own business


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## Syd72

Thanks dolphin, I would never say mind your own business when I've been so open with information  To be honest he doesn't have a clue, when I told him about this morning he told me that even though he knew there wasn't a good chance of it sticking he thought the positive pregnancy test was pretty much guarantees. Bless...

There are so many issues with having another round, not least the fact I would have to fly back to the uk to do it and spend a significant amount of time there.  He's pretty disappointed so we'll see, not holding out much hope of a change of heart to be honest.


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## esj

*Syd72* so sorry to hear your news- I'm sending major love and hugs your way also. I really feel for you but like the others say don't give up hope just yet. You responded really well to the tx , much better than I ever have.
I am your age and tried my first cycle nearly two years ago which went really badly, ending up without anything to transfer. Spent a year just trying naturally (including all the high pressure/low sex-drive scenarios mentioned earlier) with no luck before a lovely counsellor made me realise it was worth another shot. I cant say I have had a positive result yet as I'm still going through it but I am glad that we have tried again.
Lots of love XXX


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## TTCNK

Hi there - Syd so sorry to hear your news, take care of yourself and don't give up - easy to say the words I know, and its so frustrating.  I like the IUI idea, will give your body time to settle and no drugs etc..    I am still convinced that my body didn't respond well to IVF despite the number over eggs I got each time - getting a BFP just 2 months after my second failed IVF of the year was a huge surprise - some say IVF kick starts your body / clears out the old eggs - who knows?  I did use Letrozole (didn't tell OH as he also gets stressed with too much pressure - he thought he was just having a lucky week!  haha!)

Hi to everyone else.. rooting for you all Highland, Knockers, Seaside, Eskeech, dolphin...  

I am continuing along quietly 11 plus 1 now.. reassurance scan on Monday,  Harmony results back low risk ( whew!).. now just have to wait for 15th for the detailed nuchal to see where we are..  xx


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## Sunflowerseeds

Really sorry to hear your news Syd. Hoping it will change for Sunday.

This journey can be so disheartening when it doesn't go our way. Big hugs. 

After my first IVF we were so upset. My OH was very emotional, he felt like it was another major loss, like our miscarriage. He didn't want to engage with another cycle. He couldn't see how it could produce a positive outcome. Think it was more his way of processing his pain. 

We felt we had a good response to the treatment so couldn't understand what when wrong. We had 4 embryos transferred. Bit like your DP, my OH thought we would at least get an initial BFP. 

I had to leave it a few days and allowed him to have his 'grieve' but started mentioning odd thing about our future family. 

I sent him loads of photos of babies/children that could be potentially look like our children. It also helped to look at different treatment, i.e mild IVF to see if a different protocol could help with egg quality/success.  

It's a difficult time now but please hold onto your hope. You have a lot of positives on your side, 2 natural pregnancies, good AMH and FSH. 

Sending load of positive energy to you all for your continue success and new successes 

Take care X


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## dolphinx

Small update. Nurse called to tell me embryologist had told her that none of the three remaining embryos had made it to freeze   suddenly feel a bit negative and thinking the ones that were transferred have followed the same fate. 

Also feeling a bit nauseous but far too early for symptoms (3dp3dt) so must be the progesterone. And broken out in loads of little spots over last few days?! I look like a teenager. Even my Mum told me my skin looked glowing (via FaceTime - wouldn't be saying that if she could see closeup  ). Could kill a glass of wine tonight.


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## StrawberrySundae

Hello ladies can I join you? I'm 42 (for a few months) and still ttc with own eggs after 6 MCs. I've got 1 go left at Serum & was happy with their Clomid protocol, although I had a bad reaction to the egg collection anaesthetic so didn't have a hysteroscopy. Still wondering if I should have one but not sure if I can manage it! I think if I had any further MCs it would be reasonable to move onto DE, but can't really face the idea yet.

Wishing everyone luck here and a happy year ahead no matter what happens


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## Wunderwomban

Thanks highland girl for the ideas....I looked into the Aberdeen clinic you mentioned. Their prices seemed very reasonable, and short waiting time, but they only offer to those in highlands, Aberdeenshire and Orkney at the moment. I'm near Edinburgh so am going to get some day 3 blood tests at the clinic in colinton road in a few weeks, for a small fortune! It will be interesting to see what the aMH is like....have a sense my hormones are a bit whacked out. But I guess it will help me know whether it's worth trying IVF with OE. Have a Skype consultation organised with the Czech clinic in Bruno for end of March, but they seem pretty keen to push for DE. Am feeling unsure what's best re IVF in UK or abroad especially with the falling pound....but the Czech Republic seem a bit clearer in giving a price....whereas I've found the Edinburgh clinic a bit vague and it sounds like it could mount up quickly especially with multiple efforts. I was interested to read that you were being prescribed medication to help with ovulation and getting progesterone tests to see if you'd ovulated. Have you organised that through your regular GP or is that through a private clinic? I haven't found a sympathetic GP....mine was a bit like you're in menopause and that's it. Peri menopausal would be more accurate as still have cycles and ovulate 50% of the time from taking temperatures. I didn't even realise taking medication was an option. Would you advise it given your experience?

Syd, I'm sorry to hear your early test results are disheartening...it's so hard to manage disappointment when a part of you is convinced you're pregnant...and you have to believe in order to try right? The balance of holding hope and protecting your heart from the stabbing pain is hard to reach I find. Hoping your later test will bring you good news and sending you positive vibes from Scotland. Re the whole stress = nil sex drive...,we've experienced similar....have found virility tea and arginine supplements work a treat...might be worth a try....

Thanks to everyone for creating this great community...it's so very helpful xx


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## eskeech

@Syd,
I think it's Sunday morning your time and sending you good thoughts. <3

@Marigold, 
I had a brief dealing with Reprofit in Brno and liked that they were responsive and up front about costs. I didn't go with them because my "partner" backed out. I was devastated at the time, but am now very happy. Why? Because Reprofit don't do any testing (at least for your first go). I was prescribed a typical short protocol, told when to arrive and that's it. I'm going to Serum in Athens, which is a bit more money, but they are big on covering all bases before you start. This approach is entirely in tune with my way of thinking. 
Almost every clinic is going to push DE for the simple reason that they make more money from it. Sad, but true. Just because someone has 10 oe failures doesn't _necessarily_ mean they can't succeed. There are so many factors that go into IVF, SO many things can go wrong. It just may take a lot of trial and error to get a positive result. Of course, this is very expensive. And exhausting. Just don't go de until you feel that you've given oe your best. And de isn't a sure bet, so follow your heart as much as your pocket and your emotions will allow. 
Surprisingly, your cervical mucus is a far better tool for ovulation prediction than your bbt.

@StawberrySundae,
I'm so sorry to hear of your 6 miscarriages. That must be devastating. Have any of the doctors given a reason as to why? I just read "It Starts With The Egg" and according to her, every miscarriage is due to chromosomal abnormalities. I recommend the book and the supplements she suggests. Just be aware that you need to start them a good 3 months prior to IVF, as it takes that long to have an effect.

She also says, and this was revolutionary to me, that it not because your eggs are old, per se. It is because that they are old that they lack energy and are, therefore, susceptible to toxins that lead to chromosomal abnormalities - regardless where they may come from.

@dolphinx,
There is no reason to think the embryos you're carrying have followed the same fate - they are inside you! But if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way. I think we are so scared for the disappointment that we hold on to negative feelings. Try to visualize your little embies seeing your uterine wall and saying to themselves, "Hey! That looks like a really cool place to latch on to! I think I'll do that thing called implantation!"
Corny, I know, but there is a lot of good research about positive visualization.

Progesteron will wreak havoc on your face! I once took it for another reason and the zits were appearing, literally, every hour. I was pizza face. It was _disgusting_. The good thing is that once you stop the progesterone, it will go away.

As for the nausea, yes that could be the progesterone. Hard to say. I know I felt implantation with a very sudden ache followed by nausea.

@TTCNK, 
I'm rooting for you! Please keep us updated!

Everyone else, baby dust to you!


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## highlandgirl

Hi Strawberry - Welcome to the thread and I hope you will get your golden egg from the IVF  treatment you have still to go - good luck and keep posting! x Will you try another clinic if this one is unsuccessful? xx
Marigold - I will try and give the long story short - I OV about 50% since last Jan - see my signature for the details but I had my day 3 bloods - FSH / LH / Estradiol & (Thyroid which can be taken anytime ) at the GP and they can and should do this for you so I would try another doc at your practice.
If you want your AMH ( Anti Mullerian Hormone  can be done anytime in your cycle ) score or a baseline antral follicle count ( AFC can be done on cycle day 2 - counting of your follicles on your ovaries) you would need to go to fertility clinic to do this and I would if I was you as this gives your IVF clinic an idea of how you would respond to any protocol / or drugs they will prescribe for you. It also shows the starting point for yourself. 
From my searches GCRM - my clinic - have a satelite operation in Edinburgh but the Edinburgh Fertility & Reproductive Endocrine Centre (EFREC) seem to say they have great success rates as per their website but I don't know anything about them?
xx


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## Syd72

Thanks everyone, negative confirmed this morning and spotting has started. 

I'll be back in a few days.


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## eskeech

@Syd,

I'm so sorry.

I'm glad you have the love of your OH to help you through this time. I hope Sunday's festivities weren't too stressful. At least they were only one day. Do something really nice for yourself. Spurge on track expensive jacket, get a facial, anything that makes you feel a little bit good. Do not beat yourself up.

One never knows the future and maybe OH will be willing to give it another go. Even if not, you tried. You're in a happy marriage. As I said before, and mean with all my heart, nothing is more important than to love and be loved in return.

Sending you love and hugs through the ether.

eskeech


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## dolphinx

Hi *eskeech*, thanks for the morale boost over the embryos not making it. Interesting development for you. I don't know much about endo. Will it affect your chances during IVF or just after transfer?


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## eskeech

Hi dolphinx,
I am very excited for you and not at all concerned the other embryos didnt make it. It just takes one!

Some women with endo get pregnant have no issues whatsoever. However, some experience early miscarriage, ectopic pregnancies, pre-term birth, and other serious adversities. Some can't get pregnant because their uterus is toxic; endo makes for inflammatory and immune issues.

I the spent all day reading scientific studies, various articles and chatting with people on this ** group who know a lot more than I. 
I have no idea what to do. If age wasn't such a huge factor, the answer is obvious: have the excision surgery and then have IVF.

But I'll be 44 in March! I don't know if I should hope I am a lucky endo lady and stay with my plan for IVF in March, go to Serum in March and just do a freeze all, or put everything on hold to have the surgery and then go to Athens.

So the long answer to your question is maybe. There is no way to know if or how unless I have the excision and know that it is gone _or_ have IVF and have either a successful outcome or an unsuccessful outcome (which could also be attributed to chromosomal abnormalities).

I am feeling more and more disheartened.


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## StrawberrySundae

Eskeech, thank you yes it's been hard going with all these miscarriages! I've got Rebecca Fett's book and had the supplements she suggests. It is interesting and I've tried to avoid the toxic things including plastic etc that she talks about.  I'm not surprised if my eggies haven't had the energy & that's been their problem, I feel the same!   Can you start embryo banking and then have surgery afterwards? I'm thinking I might have to have a hysto at Serum after my next egg collection as I've had probs this time with retained products & taking AB's for inflammation.

HighlandGirl thank you   I think we'll do 1 further go after so many losses and then if no luck would consider where to have a DE cycle. 

Syd & Dolphins I'm very sorry for disappointing news recently, I hope you both feel better soon x

Marigold I hope your Skype consultation goes well. Have heard lots of good things about CR clinics.

Wishing everyone lots of luck x


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## Blondie71

Be nice to yourself syd it's an awful spot and then a plan will come whichever way you want to move forward and that will be your turning point x


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## Blondie71

Dolphinx I like the skin thing 👍that was one of first things for me as I normally got horrible acne before af and in the 2ww I had beautiful skin no spots or blackheads (and don't ever get them anymore since pg funny enough) my skin also went really soft like something was added to the water! So if you're getting something different to normal for you that's great!!


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## eskeech

@StrawberrySundae,
You are a very strong and brave women! I admire you and wish you all the best.

Yes, I could do embryo banking and then have the surgery. But, isn't it true that some embryos don't survive the thaw? For someone my age with both limited time and money that feels like an added risk I wouldn't have with a fresh transfer. My age and endo are huge obstacles...do I really want to add another one? Of course, I don't know anything about FET...do most embryos survive? What if I don't have many embryos to freeze?  Of course, if I do have the toxic uterus that some endo women have, it is a good way to go. There is just no way to know for sure how my endo will affect things. 

The book is good and I like how reliant it is a real science. Some science comes from less the credible countries, but there isn't one thing in the book that is bad for you (well, DHEA is controversial and I'm not taking it). 

What are retained products? What does you RE think about the miscarriages? 

Serum does seem to like their antibiotics. I've had an unusual year where I have already taken an inordinate number of ABs, but I trust them and will do as they suggest. 

When I asked them about endo, they were very honest and said that treating empirically isn't always a good thing to do. They could give me steroids and aspirin, but if I don't have the toxic uterus, this would influence a bad outcome. It's very frustrating.


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## highlandgirl

Syd - so sorry to hear my lovely sending you a big hug and lots of positive vibes from Scotland take care and be good to yourself and keep us posted on how you are feeling xx


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## Knockers71

I'm so sorry Syd, it's so hard when you get a negative result after Ivf. I just kept telling myself, at least I tried. 
We've been trying naturally since the Ivf and I really thought I was pregnant this month, I've got sore nipples and my period is late ( I'm never late) but I tested negative today, on my 46th birthday. I've no idea where my period is, it doesn't feel like it's coming any time soon, and I definitely ovulated this month. I feel like our bodies play tricks on us. 
I'm so sorry eskeech , who knows what can happen, there's no definite outcome, anything is possible. Don't give up xx


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## eskeech

@Knockers71,

Happy Birthday! 

It's incredibly brave and strong women like you that give me hope. Perhaps you have tested too early? As you sad, you are late and you are never late. That means something. Test a again in a bit.

I don't suppose you would try clomid next cycle?

We older ladies are all well aware the odds aren't in our favor, but we have a dream that we can't not pursue. I want to know, like all of you, that at least I tried. I also want to go into it having done everything in my power to improve my outcome. Supplements, for example, diet, too. And _if_ this surgery will help in conception, doing that.

I'm not sure about the excision surgery. This what Serum said: 
"You will understand that having not done IVF we cannot know how badly your eggs are affected by age or endometriosis so we can't easily say whether you would get better egg quality after excision surgery but you will understand that sometimes the excisiom will result in so much damage to ovarian volume and bloodflow that IVF can become more difficult rather than less after surgery.

So some women in your situation might want to hedge their bets by doing, say, a clomid freeze all cycle before the surgery and then, after surgery, looking at the scan of your ovaries and the surgery report to decide whether to transfer the frozen embryos (if any), whether to try another egg collection or whether to go straight for egg donor transfer before the endometriosis has chance to recur.

For egg donor and pain control, extended down regulation can be quite effective at causing the endometriosis to die back without needing surgery.

I will also mention that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between the severity of pain and the extent of endometriosis seen by laproscopy and pregnancy rate with IVF because pain will tend to be a functiom partly/mainly where the endometriosis grows and what pain causing structures it affects. IVF pregnancy rate depends on how badly the endometriosis affects the ovaries and how much uterine inflammation it causes."

What should I do? Excision surgery could rid me of pain (which compared to other endo sufferers, isn't that bad - I'm not hooked up to a morphine IV!), but compromise my IVF outcome. Obviously, I don't have much leeway there.

Any and all suggestion are welcome. Apart from de. I'm sorry, but I'm just not there.


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## Smithysmith72

Hi Ladies, 
I've been lurking in the background reading your posts for some time and finally decided to say hi especially after seeing your post eskeech.
I am 44 coming up 45, OH 36, ttc for 3yrs went through one round of IVF in November 2016 at Care in Tunbridge Wells, short protocol with 0.3 suprecur and 450 menapur for h15 days, 7 follicles in total, 6 eggs on EC, 4 Mature, 3 fertilised with ICSI, 10 cell & 12 cell put back 3dt - OTD Christmas Day!!  BFN totally devastated as financially possibly our only chance. 
The reason I'm saying all this is because I can imagine how your feeling... ever since we started our journey of ttc we have had nothing but negativity from the medical profession, consultants and even some friends. When we started out my AMH was at 2.7 and our consultant basically told me, you've no chance of conceiving and even with IVF it's 2% chance of success, best thing for you is a DE, just blase' simple as that, with no thought that this was a life changing statement for me. People think they are helping by telling 'statistically' what your chances are and maybe we aren't just a statistic. Some of us have surprising results, some of us will have natural pregnancies after we've been told there's no chance, some of us will have the pain of accepting we will remain childless despite us wanting nothing more than to be a mum. 

Please don't give up hope, as despite those statistics you may go on to prove them all wrong, I intend to!! 

Some of those fortunate ladies that have success, and luckily there have been very few in my experience, seem to forget easily how tough this rollercoaster is, how painful each negative comment is and how hurtful it can be. Despite the consultants negative attitude 'your ubikely to respond to IVF and if you do, lucky if you get one egg' I got 6 eggs and all the way to transfer. I even felt the pain and nausea of implantation, which my acupuncturist felt in my pulses but at some point in the week after something obviously went wrong and I don't regret ignoring the  consultant and going ahead one bit. I'd rather try than do nothing.

I know you don't know me and I've only just popped up but I've been reading your posts for a while and feel like your all friends! We need the support and words of encouragement. We know the risks, downfalls, statistics and reality we don't need to hear it! Advice, support, love and care is what we need especially ladies of our age group, we have all put ourselves through hell and back for the smallest chance at a family. 

Hope is a powerful thing, don't ever lose it. You are brave enough taking this IVF journey, let alone doing it by yourself so keep going for what you really want and for anyone who gives you that negative kind of advice say thanks but no thanks and let it wash over you, there are so many tremendous ladies here with great words of wisdom, and fantastic success stories focus on those instead. 

I hope you don't mind me commenting lovely, just don't want you feeling bad on your own. I joined the cycle
Buddies thread in november and some of those ladies got me through some very low moments, I am also lucky enough to have a wonderful man who is the love of my life and fantastic support. Eskeech your support is us.

Thank you Highland girl for starting this thread, it's been inspirational for me and many other ladies I'm sure. 

Sending you all huge hugs and hoping you don't mind me joining xxx


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## Altai

Dolphinx- fx for 2ww. I understand your disappointment. I had cycles where I had nothing to show for all that effort and expense, not even bfn at the end of 2ww as had no ET.  

Syd - so sorry to hear your news. Are you going to try again? 

Strawberry - have you had karyotyping done? Or have you been to recurrent mc clinic? It's a pity that Serum doesn't do pgs on embryos as with them you get so many blasts. While other clinics do pgs but you don't get blasts. 
I 'd thought that hysto helps with implantation mainly but making sure your uterus is ok. But you seem not to have problem with implantation. Anyway, probably worth doing hysto to make sure all is ok. By ask for lab  report too, not DVD only. 

Esheech - if I were you, I'd have  done embryo banking first, then sorted out endo etc. 
Like I said above, Serum does very well in getting you blasts. I probably won't be the first (or the last) one  to say that they never got blasts in other clinics but in Serum. Sometimes  its up to 80% eggs becoming blasts. Put most younger donors in to shame.
But you don't have to do clomid to do embryo banking, it could be any protocol. Also, I am pretty sure I read some ladies saying that Serum thawing rate is 100%. 
But I'd rather do banking in few clinics always good idea  to keep eggs in a separate basket.

Re ovulation induction - probably better do under fertility clinic guidance first. I took femara/tamixofen/low doses on injectables for ovulation, then trigger shot when lead follicle was over 18. Then timed intercourse/insemination. It was easier than use opk  but more expensive obviously. 

Huge hugs to all who I missed


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## Wunderwomban

Hi Eskeech........I don't know much about endo....but I agree with Knockers....there are no absolutes. My GP told me I would never conceive my own child....I was too stunned to respond at the time, but I wish I had told her that was 1. Unhelpful and 2. Inaccurate, yes, I'm aware my chances are low but you can't put absolutes out there.  That's interesting you had dealings with Reform. What do you mean when you say they do no testing?....are you meaning blood tests for hormone levels etc? Cheers


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## Riley12

Hi ladies,

Just a little note to advise you all that the moderator replying to one of Eskeech's posts was offering a different perspective and nothing more.

Fertility Friends is a forum and as such will attract opinions and experiences of other members; moderators are members too with their own personal journeys.

Good luck to you all  

Riley xx
FF Moderator


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## StrawberrySundae

Eskeech - thank you   Not feeling very strong today but keep telling myself I must be some sort of hero after all this! As all of you are here. Decided to have some time off work to recover properly, as I was getting worried after having retained products etc (i.e. not all of miscarriage coming out nicely at once - can cause infection) - scared of developing PID which I had in my 20's. At the moment at least I can get pregnant even if I've miscarried all of them, so don't want to risk anything else   My local gynaecologist has been trying to encourage me down the DE route since my 1st loss but I've been stubbornly refusing, but at least I can say I've tried with my own eggs I guess. All the best with all your decisions, lots to think about by the sounds of things. Clomid/freezing protocol seems to be quite successful at Serum?

Altai yes I've had karyotyping & all level 1&2 tests done, think I've had all of the recurrent MC tests as well. Not sure it's worth having them again or looking for others? Tommy's charity do them for free. Yes I wish Serum did PGS, but my uk clinic made a mess of that and likely spoiled my 1 normal embryo last year   Penny said PGS can cause probs in babies later, but I've never heard of that. Thanks for advice re report as well as DVD, I'm still considering hysto. Btw I also heard Serum's thaw rate is v good & their equipment is modern. I've always had all mine thaw so I suppose it's just another risk like other aspects of treatment? 

Happy birthday yesterday Knockers   Sorry for negative test.

Smithy and Marigold it's good to hear you challenging the statistics and nay-sayers, yes we're more than just a statistic!  

Hope everyone has a good week x


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## dolphinx

Hi all, thought the thread had gone quiet as I didn't receive any email notifications, but glad to see its not the case 

*eskeech* - Any decisions? Or leanings? Probably only you can decide but its a tough one. I will say that I had fibroid surgery and had to wait 3 months before starting any cycles. To be honest I felt like my body really needed it. The surgery can really take it out of you and no doubt you will be given a ton of drugs. I hear your concern about embryo freezing but there is a school of thought that the success rate might be even higher with frozen vs fresh transfers. So there are pros and cons with both fresh and frozen transfers? I would tend towards taking the advice they have given going for at least one cycle and freezing before the surgery to see where you are. But only you can know which decision which be easiest for you to live with. Have you already booked the travel to Serum?

*Altai* - thanks for understanding. Feeling OK about it all at the moment. I have read your story and really admire your pragmatic approach (and resilience!).

*Blondie71* - the spots started as soon as I started on the Crinone I think so not reading into it too much. Its a bit embarrassing though. I may as well have HORMONES tattooed to my forehead. The dewy clear skin you describe feels like a distant dream 

No real symptoms after initial about of hunger/nausea on day 6. BBs are huge and sore but they were previously with the BFN after the FET so probably the progesterone.


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## Blondie71

Hang in there Dolphin, so hard to know what's what but keeping all crossed  

Eskeech thaw rates are excellent and yeah most reach 100%, go with what your gut tells you I really believe in being your own advocate,  lastly you are an individual and you may get 1 egg or you may get 20, nobody can tell you and you must try!

Personally frozen worked best for me as stimming stirred up alot of inflammation as my tubes were really bad and had to come out, I also had a serum hysteroscopy that I really didn't need but was reassuring to know all was well and of course the implantation cuts were a bonus that may (if nothing else psychologically) have helped lol x


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## ricks3

Hi Ladies - can I join? I'm 43. I had fresh IVF in 2013 which resulted in DD and 9 frosties. We have now had 6 failed FET, used all our frosties and are not sure what to do next. BFN was on Friday so still reeling a bit that the dream is over. 

I don't know whether to walk away or somehow keep trying. Success rates do not look good now I am older and we've already spent a small fortune. We are considering own eggs with PGS testing - has anyone had any success with this? I guess the other option is DE but DH is dead set against this at present. I just want a baby. 

I'm looking at Gennet in Prague as we can't afford anymore treatment in the UK. Serum also looks good but longer flights... we've a follow up on Monday at the Lister - I haven't a clue what my AMH is even anymore as last tested in 2012 so guess that's a place to start

TBH feel a bit low and lonely and lost. Any encouragement and advice much appreciated.

Love to you all.


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## Syd72

Hi ladies, sorry for the radio silence, trying to get my head around the negative result and also things are really stressful out here with his ex right now.  Hello and welcome to the new ladies.

Ricks3, I can't offer any advice I'm afraid as I haven't done PGS testing although friends of mine did it last year on what I think was their 7th round of IVF and have a very healthy baby now.  I hear amazing things about Serum.  Very best of luck.

Thanks Altai.  My partner doesn't want to do another fresh IVF round and we had nothing to freeze so looking at IUI.

Eskeech I'm really sorry, I know nothing about endo so don't know what to advise.

Knockers71, a belated happy birthday.

Thanks to all of you that commented re my bfn.  I'm still really shocked it didn't work which is SO stupid!!  

I'm sorry to all those I've missed, struggling to keep up and currently at work.

I did just want to ask for some advice if that's ok.  When I'm back in the UK in April I want to do an IUI since they have the sperm frozen already.  My thinking is to do it unmedicated in case it was all the medication during IVF that messed up my chances (I realise it could be a hundred things).  Is the medication you take for an IUI the same type of thing, eg is it also likely to cause issues around inflammation?  Or would it be ok to take the medication?  I realise everyone reacts differently and it's very hard to say but just wondered what people's thinking is.  As far as I'm aware I ovulate regularly without issues.

Many thanks.


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Syd, 

I'm possibly have a FET and I've been told they can work with my natural cycle, especially as I seem to ovulate regularly. I would suspect it would be the same principles. 

Quick question - what is the maximum your endo lining for ivf? Mine seem to be 13.5 at trigger stage and I'm not sure if it's best to still try with a fresh cycle or opt for a FET (providing embryos get to that stage). Any advice anyone? 

X


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## Flyby

Eskeech, I had fibroid surgery in Greece before embryo banking at Serum. I had the fibroid removed (large one on outside of uterus that no-one was sure if it would have affected pregnancy, but we wanted to remove as a last resort). I had the first egg collection the same day as surgery, then three more in the following months while I was waiting to heal, then took a month break in August while the clinic were closed, had transfer around the last day of August and got pregnant from that first transfer at age 44. They all thawed perfectly and I had four transferred. I think the timing of the transfer worked well as the embryos could be put back at optimum time for implantation, even if they had been slow developers which they were, all my blastocysts took six days to get there and still none were hatching yet. So I think that if your embryos have a habit of developing more slowly, then with a frozen transfer, you are still hopefully catching the optimum implantation window. Hope that helps, F x


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## Knockers71

Hi I've no idea what's happening with this cycle, I definitely ovulated but there's still no period, I'm 4 days late now and no sign. I got a bfn the day before I was due and the day after. I guess this period just isn't going to happen. But if you ovulate , you have to have a period after right?


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## Syd72

Thanks sunflowerseeds. I don't really know about maximum endo  lining for IVF but on one of my scans they said my lining was 16 and didn't seem at all concerned. Turned out they made a mistake and it was only 8 but they didn't seem at all perturbed when they thought it was 16.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I was so very disappointed for you to read about your BFN. And shocked too actually, as I'd been pretty sure you'd have had the opposite outcome. I suspect you must be feeling terribly sad, but it's great to see that you're planning to continue some form of OE treatment - you must! Please do keep reminding yourself that you have great test results and responded really well (as you would've expected) to the stims. In case it helps, I know 3 people in RL well enough to have shared the details of their IVF treatment. None of them succeeded on their first IVF try actually, but each did succeed on their second or later try (at the ages of 38, 40 and 43).

Can you speak to/email your clinic to discuss options for treatment when you're back in UK in April? Great that you have sperm frozen, so a whole heap of potential problems are solved already. Would you not consider another IVF rather than an IUI? I think they would probably still give you some drugs for IUI; maybe a very low dose of IVF drugs (e.g. I had a protocol discussed with me of 75iui menopur daily, I think). If you're concerned about high doses of drugs for IVF; why not ask them if you can try IVF at a lower dose? I've done IVF with Gonal F at 225 iui daily, and also 150 iui daily. If it's a timing issue of how long you are able to stay in the UK, then could you not arrange to start your medication whilst still overseas - perhaps after having an U/S scan locally and emailing it to the UK clinic? But especially if IVF is covered by your medical insurance, I'd _definitely _choose IVF over IUI.

*Dolphinx *- how is your 2ww going? Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

*ESJ* - have you had your transfer yet? I'd be most interested to hear how Create determined the timing of it? Had you had the ERA test? Of course I'm hoping for a BFP for you too.

*Marigold* - I wasn't impressed to read about your 'hideous consultation' with the GP! You say that progesterone and FSH bloods were taken on day 21 and your FSH was 30. Normally they should assess FSH on day 2-5, ideally on day 2-3. If it was taken later in cycle than that, just ignore it. The other point is that FSH shouldn't of itself preclude any fertility treatment. I had IVF at the Lister in January 2016 and know for a fact that they accept any FSH result up to 50 (fifty). In any case, FSH can fluctuate wildly from cycle to cycle. I conceived my (now 3.5 year old) daughter naturally in a cycle in which my FSH on day 3 was 19 and I'd been told, pretty bluntly, to F off, in a fertility assessment at one of the CARE fertility clinics. That experience sadly dissuaded me from seeking IVF anything like as quickly as I should have done after she was born (when I was 44) at a time when I really should've been getting cracking. Incidentally, I've had my FSH tested loads of times since she was born and for ages it was always 6 - 9, never as high as that one time when it was apparently 19. (Although it might be now, I daren't check anymore.)

*Smithysmith72* - welcome to the thread and thank you for such a lovely, thoughtful and inspiring post. Best of luck in your continued TTC endeavours. What are you planning to do next?

*Ricks3 *- Congratulations on your daughter. Your response to treatment so far suggests it's too soon to give up on own eggs, no? I rate the Lister very highly but they are SO expensive! Serum or Gennet seem like great options which are significantly more affordable.

You say your DH is very against DE, but you 'just want a baby'. I don't know how you would resolve that dilemma, but you probably don't have to, I'd say your chances with OE must still be pretty viable? Purely personally, I haven't been able to come to terms with the concept of having a donor egg child when I already have a genetic DD. I'd be terrified of making unfavourable and unfair comparisons. It's sad perhaps, but my mind just won't/can't bend to it.

Lots of other newbies - welcome - and waves to all the 'old timers'. (It's lovely the thread is so busy, but I'm sorry I'm losing track!)

I'll say this quickly as it's  rubbish. I had AF, finally, on day 43 (!!!) and went back to Create for a baseline IVF scan. There was the remnants of a cyst and only one follicle - ONE! It's truly horrific when my antral follicle counts were so good (consistently 9 - 13) little over a year ago. Doctor was like, don't panic, we may well be in the territory of things now being very unpredictable, but we'll skip this cycle and look again next month. If there's one or two follicles again, we'll try to run with that. I'd really hoped to get at least one more frozen embryo. I've only got 2 decent-looking embryos and 1 ropey-looking embryo in the freezer, which really doesn't feel like enough; especially as they were frozen on day 3.

So anyway, if I don't have much to say going forwards, that's the reason why. Oh well, all will become clearer by the first week in March. Maybe my cronky old ovaries will dig out a couple more follicles from somewhere ...


----------



## ricks3

Hi everyone,

I’m trying to catch up on all of your stories – please bear with me – lots of reading to be done 

Syd – so sorry to read of your BFN. I wish I could offer some insight into IUI but it’s not something I have done – hopefully you’ll get some answers. x

Sunflowerseeds – I note from your signature you are having mild ivf – can you tell me what that means? 

Flyby – amazing you conceived at 44 – definitely gives me hope xxx

Beside the seaside – thank you for your kind encouraging words. Your words struck such a chord as only last night DH and I were discussing DE and he just said he only wanted to have another child with his wife and did not want to father someone else’s child since we have our own perfect genetic DD and if DE was the only way forward he’d rather we stayed as a perfect family of 3 rather than risk making comparisons as you say and worry about feeling differently about the 2 children.  It is so complicated and I do understand what he is saying – I also have trouble adjusting my rational thoughts about it – just still battling with the emotions and need for the baby with the last BFN still being so recent. I’m sorry about there being only 1 follicle for you this cycle – hopefully next one will be better xxxxx I note from your signature you are having natural modified IVF – can you let me know what that means?

Thank you to everyone for making me feel welcome here.


----------



## Syd72

Thanks ladies.

Beside_the_seaside, it's my OH that doesn't want to do another round of IVF, not me.  I would be happy to do it again although I do have a slight nagging feeling that although I felt fine on all the drugs, maybe my body didn't like them hence the bfn.  My acupuncturist thinks I'm borderline on inflammation issues.  I'm therefore keen to do one round of IUI without any medication at all, particularly since I have gotten pregnant twice naturally in recent months.  If that doesn't work and I don't fall naturally I may bring up the subject again with OH about another round in July when I'm back in the UK for a few weeks.

I'm so sorry that you're having to skip this cycle as well, hopefully after a couple of months of not doing much your ovaries will come up with the goods next month.  At least your doctor is being reassuring rather than negative.

Knockers71 yes, if you ovulate and are not pregnant you have to have a period.  I can't remember, are you always very regular?

Flyby that's amazing that you had ec on the same day as fibroid removal.  I totally credit my fibroid removal with my newfound ability to get pregnant.  Literally the first twice of trying after the surgery (didn't see OH for two months after surgery so had time to heal) I got pregnant.  Neither worked out but I hadn't had a sniff of a bfp before that with a year of trying.

I was warned that if this IVF didn't work I would have a particularly heavy period, not so.  I've definitely had what I would count as my period, ie full flow, but nowhere near as heavy as normal.  I'm worried that means a load of old lining has been left behind so there's no chance of naturally conceiving this month - not that that's likely anyway given OH's current sex drive...


----------



## Knockers71

Hi Syd yes I am pretty regular, I usually start a few days early. I've been late once in 35 years of periods! That was quite recently and I thought I was pregnant then too. I'm sure I ovulated as I had symptoms- ovaries aching and fertile cm. then I had painful boobs and nipples, which has faded now but still slightly there. I'm on day 34 now. I have read that some people's pregnancies don't test positive until weeks or months into the pregnancy. But maybe I'm clutching at straws and it's just my hormones are all over the place. 
Sorry for your bfn Syd, it's so hard this ttc lark. 
Good luck to everyone else whatever stage they're at and take care xx


----------



## esj

Hi All
*Syd72* glad you have a plan of action for your next steps. I'm just about to have my FET, extremely nervous.
*Beside the seaside*, no I didnt pursue the ERA test in the end. The costs would be probably close to another round and the Dr told me that for my age group if it doesn't work its 99% likely to be egg quality rather than any implantation issues. I've decided to just transfer two 3dt (8 cell + 7 cell) and keep the 6 cell one. He did give me the option of thawing all and seeing what makes it to 5 days but Im going to go with the less risky option. hope I'm doing the right thing. 
I did have a major quandary this morning discussing what to transfer and the lead up to it procedure. My lining is 8mm triple layer and it looks like I am about to ovulate naturally so the Dr said to do ovitrelle tonight. Another (new, possibly in training) consultant was present at scan and I heard her ask the Dr why he would trigger and not allow natural ovulation which obviously made me question it too, knowing there was another option. He explained there was no detrimental effect from triggering but they do this to enable them to plan the day of transfer more exactly and not risk missing the right time. Ive never had a transfer before, frozen or otherwise. Does anyone have any comments or experience here? I am sure it makes no difference but just would set my mind at ease.
Transfer set for next Wed if I do the trigger tonight. 
Wish me luck x


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

Greeting to you all. Sorry I'm playing catch up with everyone's posts. Hope you are all doing well.

Rick - I ended up doing a modified natural IVF but think it was more a cross between this and very mild IVF. I took tamoxifen 2 X 20mg from days 2-14 and 150ml of Gonal F on day 3 but only took it every other day.

My AFC was 8 on day 2, seem to have 12 follicles after day 5. Was hoping to get 5/6 eggs but then 3/4 eggs seemed ready so we went for these. My E2 and LH levels on day 12 were over 4000 and 4.5 so Dr advised we needed to trigger.

Tamoxifen can make your lining thicker so thought we may have to opt for a FET, providing we get to that stage.

Ended up with 3 eggs, the 4th follicle didn't have an egg in it. 2 eggs has fertilised so just wait and see. I was a bit hard going from 9, 15 to 3 eggs, OH reminded me that we're need to focus on quality over quantity.

Even though only 2 embryos clinic would like to do a day 5 ET rather than transfer both now. Bit nervous of this approach but also need to trust the clinical team.

Fingers and toes crossed now.

Below are a few links for Create:

Mild IVF - https://www.createhealth.org/fertility-treatments-services/fertility-treatments/mild-stimulation-ivf

Modified natural IVF - https://www.createhealth.org/fertility-treatments-services/fertility-treatments/modified-natural-ivf

I'm sure others on the forum can recommend other clinics who also do this treatment.

Knockers - could you have had an very early CP? When we first started TTC I had something similar, late period, sensitive boobs, etc but thought my body was playing up. It was only with my IVF cycle in Oct when I tested 2 days early, it was a very faint BFP then the next day disappeared on one strip and very faint on another. My HCG was only 9 and went to 0 in a week.

ESJ - I've only had one FET and I took progynova for preparation. On one of my scans it showed I had a dominant follicle and thought I would ovulate. I'd asked if we could do a IUI and FET around the same time or try naturally to conceive in the same cycle. Clinic advised they didn't want to do IUI as they didn't want to risk anything happening to my lining ahead of FET and also they didn't want me to ovulate as this could unbalance my hormones for the FET. Not sure how true this is and would be interested to know others thoughts.

Syd - as you've conceived naturally have you been advised if something like clexane help?

Wishing you all the very best with the paths you are taking.

X

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/size]


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## Knockers71

Hi sunflowerseeds, I don't know if it was a cp, as I haven't had a period, this would have followed wouldn't it? I'm not sure what's going on. 
Hope you're doing ok x


----------



## dolphinx

Hi all, I think I'm out I'm afraid. Did a test today (11dp3dt) and it was negative. I'm actually OK about it and as I really didn't feel it had worked. But my OTD is 17th February and it is a blood test. Problem is I'm in UK (not US where I had treatment) so can't get blood test! I just want to stop taking the progesterone but don't want to make rash decisions until negative properly confirmed.

What is the verdict on confirming a negative based on POS rather than blood test? I seem to remember previous clinic in London only used urine test.

*Sunflowerseeds* - best of luck with the FET. My next plan is to try mild or natural IVF at Create.

*eskeech* - any decisions yet?

Its a terrible thing to say but I had a bit of a dilemma about donor sperm on this cycle and I think that is a major factor in why I am taking this negative so well.


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## Flyby

Dolphinx, the Path Lab in Welbeck St, London do HCG blood tests, I think they do walk in appointments and charge around £50 in case you need to know (I always had same day results too) F x


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

Knockers - I would have thought your period would have had a period if you ovulate. I had a few 35 days cycles and I swore I'd ovulated and was testing BFN or it could have been the stress of my situation. Hope everything settles down soon for you.

Dolphinx - don't rule yourself out just yet. Your OTD is over a week a way, it seems a little too soon to get a proper result. It may be best to continue with the progesterone.

My lining was 13.3 so providing my embryos go to 5 days then we'll go for a fresh transfer. Feel it's a bit of a gamble waiting until day 5 but they said if they going to survive then they will go to day 5. 

Sending positive vibes for a BFP for you 

X


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## Blondie71

Knockers I'd get a blood test to see if any hcg detected  

Dolphins highly recommend you do the same as it gives you an indication if implantation has attempted if indeed it is neg, hope it goes the way you want it to given your doubts, if it's any consolation I too along with many others felt strange about the idea of our donors but absolutely adore the bones of my boys and I hardly think about him ever and it's with gratitude when I do ❤

Just wanted to say to ESJ to consider all 3 to put back, at 40 I put 4 back and only 1 took (obviously split into twins) but I'm glad as chances of more than 1 taking are remote (different obviously if you were using younger donor eggs) it just gives you a better hand to play this lottery with x


----------



## Blondie71

Dolphins what test did you use?? Hopefully not a supermarket cheapie as they don't show up great at all, clear blue digital is best in UK I'd say or even 1st response


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## dolphinx

It was a First Response, just 1 month out of date   no evaporation line, nothing, looks very negative.

If I had the private blood test tomorrow and it was negative (12dp3dt) do you think that is OK to confirm negative?


----------



## Blondie71

I would say yes a blood test would show enough of a level at that stage to call it, my neg blood test was done before otd and it was a devastating 2 but it showed an attempt at implantation which strangely comforted me that it was worth another shot and I'm sure whatever the outcome you'll come up with a plan x


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Blondie, 

When you say the HCG showed an attempt at implantation, is this when the reading is above 2 but not very high? 

X


----------



## Wunderwomban

Hi guys

I’ve now been chatting to Serum as well as Retrofit. Serum seem pretty impressive with their communication….same day replies and nothing seems lost in translation which is good. They suggested I have my FSH retested on day 3 and suggested possibility of a combined cycle where I have a Clomid freezing cycle, go to Serum, if there’s any viable eggs to embryo they then freeze and I return a cycle later for transfer. They said Clomid gives a poor lining, so hence reason they can’t transfer within the same cycle and visit. Alternatively if after Clomid I have no viable eggs they will use a donor egg, freeze embryo and I return a cycle later for transfer.  They say if I move to donor egg there will be no charge for failed own egg IVF which is good. I’m a little bit confused as to how they can know they will have a suitable available donor egg when they won’t know for sure whether I will need them until last minute.  They said to me if my day 3 FSH readings are as bad as they were on day 23 then there won’t be any point in trying with own eggs. But I take your point Besides the Sea, that women do sometimes conceive with high FSH levels and I have read rare accounts of that happening to women with 30 plus FSH. I’m not quite sure if I can insist that I try own egg IVF even if the FSH levels turn out to be too high or whether its the clinics prerogative to make that decision for you. Does anyone know?

I'm also a bit confused as how you know when you can book flights etc when you don't quite know exactly when your cycle will be.

I’ve managed to find a more sympathetic GP who is prepared to run FSH, LH etc on day 3 on the NHS. I was really surprised to realise he didn’t know what AMH was either! I’m guessing they don’t get many women approaching them re fertility issues.  While I’m waiting and wondering when exactly day 3 is going to come I need to arrange for AMH through a private clinic and a scan too. I think AMH can be taken on any day of cycle. Does anyone know if there is a particular day that a scan needs to be carried out on? It’s to assess the sorry state of my follicles.

Hope you’re all getting on okay.

Cheers xx


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## esj

Thanks for your reply *Sunflowerseeds* I went ahead with the ovitrelle last night as instructed. Start Cyclogen tomorrow and transfer will be Wed. 
Blondie71 I totally hear you, I did consider putting 3 back but doc advised doing 2 so going with that. Lets see what happens. 
x


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## StrawberrySundae

Marigold I have my 2nd cycle at Serum coming up hopefully next month, my final OE ivf  . Communication is good I think. I think they're happy for you to try with your own eggs, I'm also doing Clomid & freezing, although my lining was ok so could have gone ahead straight away. It's also possible to have an extra egg collected from your natural cycle when you go over for ET, to have an extra possible embryo. It can be tricky booking flights. Some people book the flexi tickets but they are more expensive. Last time I had to have a week's leave from work at short notice but might see if I can make the trip shorter this time by going from a different Uk airport. I can't quite remember the day re scans, I didn't have any in the uk before EC but I think you can have 1 or 2 here prior to flying out so you can time the flights more precisely (more expensive at last minute though). I hope this helps a bit and good luck.

Hope everyone having an ok weekend x


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## Altai

Marigold - you can insist on trying with own eggs irrespective of your fsh.  Most clinics would allow you to cycle.I think thats a very good offer from Serum. It's like a tandem cycle for the price of one but with higher success rate than would be with tandem. Though must say that De selection pussles me too.I cycle with ladies who were coming for EC  but had to switch to de last minute. Perfect match was always available. Serum ladies seem to be happy about matching process. It is always a compromise when going to de as  you'd never going to get  mini you. I am sure all clinics would do their best to match you as close as possible from donor pool available at that moment. 
I wouldn't have gone for clomid cycle thou if I were you.  Firstly, I read that  clomid could raise fsh level. 
But  more importantly at that age I think is to have  possibility of fresh transfer especially if you are DOR.  If for example you'd only get 1-2 eggs, I'd rather transfer them in the same cycle. In case embryos don't thaw well. 
If there r few, then still maybe transfer one the  bestest looking  and try to freeze the rest. I know it's often said  on this forum that Serum's thaw rate is 100% but think safe to take a pdudent approach if older with DOR. Probably not much of an issue for older  high responders as they get more eggs. 
In a worst case scenario if no viable eggs, then you could take an offer on donor egg but you still would have tried oe.

As far as I remember, AFC could be done anytime. I don't think I had it done on d3. 
I had all my scans b/f EC in the U.K, so I didn't have to stay in Athens for long. 

dolphinx- Fx for your blood test. 

Strawberry - why dont you want to try embryo banking with pgs somewhere else?


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## dolphinx

I racked up another two negative POAS tests over weekend (still not had blood test - remarkably difficult to achieve without travelling into central London but will get it done before Thurs). So 99% I'm out. Despite earlier comments I do feel quite deflated. At the moment it feels like my body is incapable of producing a BFP.

I have some decisions to make about next steps so I'm working on that. Skip next paragraph if you don't want to be bored with the intimate details!

Basically this last cycle was a real bonus as my health insurance in the US paid for it. The only downside was that I could not use the sperm donor I had used to create the existing embryos I have in the UK. I didn't find this out until just before the cycle started and I decided to go ahead with a different donor. In all honestly I felt uneasy about this all the way through the cycle, ridiculous I know because I don't know much about either donor, but that's the way it is. I felt almost like I was being unfaithful to my existing embryos! I now have 2 blasts in the freezer from 2014 and one 8-cell day 3 from 2016 (the not-so-good cycle). I used the best looking blast for a FET last year but it was a BFN. I am now really, really scared to go ahead and try with the other two as that will leave 'nothing in the bank' if they also failed. I know this also makes no sense!! So now I have to decide to try again with a FET, or 'make hay whilst the sun shines' and try and bank a few more whilst my fertility is still reasonable for my age category (on paper at least  ). So either another no-cost cycle in the US using a different donor or more cycles in Europe using same donor.

Funnily enough another consideration was that I was down to only 2 vials of original donor. But was checking through website last night and found a small supply had come back into stock (a former customer returning stock maybe?) so I bought up another 3 vials. Not superstitious in the slightest but some sort of sign maybe?! Who knows.

Sorry this is so much about me. Its tough having no-one to discuss this with so its lovely to vent to people who actually understand.

*Sunflowerseeds* and *esj* - best of luck for your transfers this week. I know its pretty nerve wracking on the leadup.

I may come back to you actually as I'm thinking Serum or Create for next.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Dolphinx *- I'm sorry to read of your BFN. Can you try to hang on another couple of days and test again before you write it off completely? I'm afraid I got a bit lost on the donor sperm issue! However, I can completely understand you wanting to bank embryos from another cycle before you try with your previously frozen ones, it makes good sense to me. Especially if you can have another free cycle (albeit with a different sperm donor) via your US health insurance?

*ESJ* - I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your frozen transfer on Wednesday - wishing you the very best of luck. It sounds like the Ovitrelle trigger makes the timing more reliable, which can only be a good thing.

*Knockers* - personally my period has been late due to (1) pregnancy, (2) unresolved cysts, that have later self-corrected, (3) hyperactive thyroid due to over-medication. I really hope your delay is due to the first reason! At any rate, it seems the most likely in your case? One of my friends didn't get a positive urine HPT for at least a couple of weeks with her second child. Her GP did a urine test that was also negative, then a B-HCG blood test which was positive. (I can't remember why the urine tests wouldn't show positives early on, or even if there was ever an explanation given for it.) If AF is still a no show could you not ask your GP for a blood test?

*Strawberrysundae* - really interesting to read that with the Serum Clomid banking, they can try to collect an extra egg from your natural cycle when you go over for ET, to have an extra possible embryo. That's really clever. Best of luck for your second OE cycle next month.

*Sunflowerseeds* - interesting you did the Tamoxifen + Gonal F protocol. (I thought about trying that for one of the 2 remaining cycles, at least, I would if I actually get to do any more cycles.) Hope your 2 embryos are doing well? Are you going with the fresh transfer? I'm trying to work out when your day 5 would be if they were fertilised (day 1?) on 10th February. Would it be tomorrow, Tuesday Fingers crossed.

Waves to everyone else. I'm having a pretty miserable time of worrying about the last dreadful baseline scan, but hoping that the doctor is right in that next month I might just have something better to run with.


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## StrawberrySundae

Besidethesea thank you   Sometimes I don't know if it's worth bothering with another OE cycle as the likelihood of another MC is so high   I don't think I'll be collecting the extra fresh egg at Serum the following month as it would mean staying an extra 5+ days in Greece but yes it can be a good idea. I hope your worries about your baseline scan lift soon and you have a more cheerful week. Apparently it can be worse when there's a full moon and its gone now!  

Altai thanks yes I think I'd be a good candidate for pgs embryo banking abroad, but just can't afford it after so many cycles already, so it's 1 more OE then DE if we have to. I did 2 pgs banking cycles in the Uk and only 1 embryo was normal (out of 9) but the clinic messed it up (originally it was a no result as they didn't have enough information so had to defrost, take more cells to analyse & refreeze - poor little blastocyst didn't really stand a chance after all that & I got a CP   ) Well done on your persistence, so good to see it paid off!  

Dolphins so sorry about your bfn   I hope you come up with a plan soon. I agree it's nice to have a supportive group here.

ESJ and Sunflower good luck this week!


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## kayza27

Sorry to just jump I  but is anyone doing a donor egg cycle or has an precious experience of one? 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Altai

Dolphinx- so sorry to read your update. I think makes sense to do few more fresh cycles since they are covered by insurance. I wouldn't worry about donor sperm. I used 5 diffferent sperm donors. I personally think it's a good idea to try various DS ro find the best match for your eggs. 

Strawberry - good luck with your upcoming fet. Fx for the success. Is it anytime soon? I'd have done the same not collecting an extra egg when coming for fet. I personally think it's far too expensive (and risky) to use a cycle just for one egg. But then I don't believe that no/less drugs would make chromosomally abnormal eggs chromosomally normal. It's determined by age. Totally understand about finance. I probably made wrong choices with clinics too in a way that they were far too expensive for the number of IVF it took me which I'd I'll afford. In hindsight should have gone to less costly clinics. 
Have you thought about doing combo cycle with oe and de? Sort  of tandem but not in the same month. But hope you won't be needing it after your fet. 

Sunflower- have you tried gonal f on its own? Some consultants think that it's no good for older women. But I know that Create use it a lot. I had it while cycling with them - with poor results. They didn't want to change it to any other drug should I stayed with them. 
I did tamixofen with altermon and puregon. Puregon combo gave more eggs. Though could because the dose was higher.


Kayla - I was planning to do de and oe combo. Though it's on hold now.

Hugs to all

A.


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## TTCNK

Hi all, lots of new names on this thread which is great. A short update, and don't want to post to much as conscious of everyone's feelings.  I had my 13 week scan and all is fine.  I can't quite believe it .  So at 46 it can be done with OE naturally ( i still keep my fingers crossed)  I will keep and eye on this thread and share what knowledge I have gained over the past 3 years gladly.  Highland thank you again for starting this! Seaside I love the way you always have something lovely to say to so many, I am rooting for you.  To all on this thread I wish you all the best xx


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## Sunflowerseeds

Esj - hope your ET went well. Good luck for a positive outcome. 

Dolphinx - thanks for the well wishes for my ET. I've had my HCG bloods done via my GP, I'm know not everyone's GPs are the same but if may be worth asking/pushing for them to help with the test.

Good luck with your next steps, it can seems easier to go with the FET but it may be worth trying (if you have the patience) another fresh cycle to see which is the better quality embryos.

I've only had brief dealings with Serum but the communications was good and I've heard some good results. Apart from the disorganisation of the admin team I like Create's approach to encouraging OE and working to support your wishes, for me not pushing DE as a quick win. Unfortunately I've had this with other clinics that I've been to or engaged with in the past, they seem to totally disregard my wishes. 

Besides - thanks also for the well wishes. I had the fresh cycle, my lining at EC was 13.3mm so Dr was happy to continue with fresh. It's the first time I've done this protocol of Tamoxifen and Gonal F. My follicles started out well of growing evenly and initially thought we would end up with 5/6 eggs, was a little disappointed with just 3 but would prefer this then poor quality eggs/embryos. Also liked that I didn't have loads of other symptoms from the medications, i.e. mood swings, swollen tummy/boobs, excessive soreness after EC, etc. 

Please don't feel down, hopefully your next cycle will be better and show the follicles you need. I'll have my fingers crossed for you. 

Strawberry - thanks. It's weighing up the extra time (and cost) for the extra EC but if they think it's worth collecting then it may help in your quest for a baby. Is there a possibility of getting a scan here before going to Greece? Then Serum could may be advice before going if it's worth trying for the EC. It needs to feel ok and not be additional stress when you already have good embryos for the ET. 

Also have you tried any additional treatment to help with MCs? Create has prescribed Clexane and Prednisolone. Not sure if this will do the trick, fx. It would be interesting to get others thoughts on this?  Good luck with your FET. I'll be rooting for you. 

Kayza - sorry I can't help. I think they may be a few other forum that are focusing on DE, they may be better portal to try. Good luck.

Altai - I've only had Merional previously, this time it is a completely different protocol for me. When I was doing some research it recommended Gonal F as a LH meds for older women better than Merional which is FSH and LH. I only had a small amount of 150iu of Gonal F every other day, which was vastly different to 375iu each day. Also the effects of my body seem a lot better this time. Think if we had to have another cycle I would prefer to get a few more eggs and would look to adapting our previous protocol. What was your protocol/dose and outcome of both tamoxifen treatments? 

TTCNK - huge congratulations. I pleased it's going well. Sending loads of positive vibes for your next stages.

ET seem to go well, felt Dr was trying to place embryos in the best place for implantation. Just have to wait and see now. 

Sorry if I've missed anyone. Good luck to everyone with your next steps.

X


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## Knockers71

Hi everyone, TTCNK that's great news congratulations! 
Good luck people with stages you're at, sunflowerseeds with your ET. 
My period is now starting 2 weeks late. I've no idea what's going on. I had painful nipples when I was due 2 weeks ago but a bfn. Then the paid faded and a few days ago my boobs became sore and now my period is starting. I hope this isn't the beginning of really erratic periods as I've never been late before. 
Hope everyone is ok xx


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## StrawberrySundae

Hello ladies happy Friday 😊 

Thanks Altai the sound of OE DE combo sounds interesting, altho Penny at Serum didn't seem very keen on tandem cycles. Also are you allowed to have DE and OE embryos transferred together? I wouldn't mind that, but not sure it's possible. Yes I wish I hadn't wasted so much money in my Uk clinic before.


TTCNK what wonderful news! Wow that is great, you lucky thing! - all the best for the rest of your pregnancy  

Sunflower thanks so much   yes I've had lots of tests and had Clexane, prednisone & kitchen sink! I think I will get some scans here before going to Serum & will get advice from Penny - I hope she isn't sick of me asking her questions!  

Knockers I hope your periods sort themselves out. I wonder if anything like reflexology or acupuncture would help? 

Not sure when next going out for EC yet. Am currently sitting in my Womens Health unit yet she in due to retained products- 4 weeks after my twins hearts stopped. Very drawn out and think I'll ask for an erpc today as I'm still v swollen etc and just want to move on..  

Hope everyone has a good weekend x


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## Sunflowerseeds

Good luck Strawberry. From my dealing with Serum I think you'll be ok asking loads of questions. Their communications are good. 

Hope you appointment went well last week.

Good luck with your journey X


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## highlandgirl

Hello ladies!

Sorry for the sabatical but been a bit busy with life in general 
Can't believe how the thread moves so fast when I don't check in for a week or so but it's so great to see you all getting involved  

I will try to go for some personals but sorry if I miss you out or get some info wrong hard to keep up!

Beside - I hope you are hanging in there waiting for march which starts next Wednesday can't believe it  how are you? 
I bought it starts with the egg as per your recommendation and it's fab thank you for the tip!
TTCNK - so pleased me excited for you and gives us over 45ers hope and I'm glad I started this thread too it's been amazing and continues to be amazing but it's all down to you ladies  
Gem - how re you getting on?
Knockers - took me 3 cycles to get back to normal after ivf and Clomid - are you still trying naturally?
ESJ - how are you how did et go?
Ricks - welcome how are you getting on?
Sundae - good luck with your OE cycle sending you positive vibes x
Sun seed - how are you finding create Birmingham?
Smithy - thank you for your fab post which captures the whole point of how most of us feeel / have felt about this journey thanks for joining us - how are you getting on?

Luckye / eskeech / marigold / dolphin x / Altai / unicorn / anyone else - how are you getting on? 

Sorry if I missed anyone - eek!

We are on our 3rd natural cycle and still OV all ok - got peak today on opk kit so it's game on and onto another 2ww and progesterone test to check OV again lets hope it's our month 💋 
Xx


----------



## ricks3

Hi ladies - hope you are all ok xxx

I have been busy getting all the blood tests done for potential new clinic abroad to save costs - HIV, hepatitis, AMH etc etc and also pulling all of my paperwork together. I panic about time passing and am so conscious of getting older minute by minute - just bizarre - does anyone else get that? 

I have started taking 300mg ubiquinol each day for egg quality - is there anything else you girls would recommend I can do? Already doing healthy diet, no alcohol, no caffeine, limited sugar (too depressed to ditch all chocolate).

I think you are all very brave and amazing. Nice to have support on here. 

Love to you all.


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi everyone,

Hope you're all well.

Highlander - Create Birmingham are ok. The admin is disorganised as usual, no change there. Can't seem to see how they can't get their act together. It's a shame as the clinical team are good. It's the only reason we've gone with them. Good luck with your ovaluation this cycle. Are you trying anything to support trying naturally?

Rick - a while ago I found this link, which was useful. http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=226042.0 it would probably be useful for you to do some research as well. Think Angel tries to update it when she gets new information.

My OTD is tomorrow but own tests are BFN so it's not looking good. I'll get confirmation tomorrow but guess it's back to the drawing board.

Altai - it would be interesting to know the protocol you succeeded on.

Hope you are all well.

Take care X


----------



## Knockers71

Hi everyone, yes highlandgirl we've been trying naturally, we really thought I was pregnant as I had sore nipples and my period was late..., then it came 2 weeks late, was light and only 2 days. I fear I may be peri menopausal now 😢


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Knockers, 

Have you had a HCG test? If you have the symptoms and only a light period it could be an ectopic pregnancy. Hope it's not and all's well with you. 

X


----------



## Knockers71

Hi sunflowerseeds I did clear blue pregnancy tests a day early, a day llate and 5 days late, all negative. I'm never late normally and my periods usually last about 4 days x


----------



## ricks3

Knockers - so sorry xx  sending you hugs.

Sunflowerseeds - thank you for the link - I'm stocking up on extra supplements. I've also just bought the book "It starts with an Egg" to see if there's anything else useful in there. Thinking of you today on your OTD and keeping everything crossed. xxxx

I went for a gynae exam today which actually went well. Everything looks healthy and normal and I had some antral follicles developing. I'll get a report to send to any new clinic of the ultrasound and comments. He also did my a new smear. I've just booked an initial consultation with Gennet in Prague for next week - all our bloods etc should be back by then. 

Love to everyone. xx


----------



## Knockers71

Good luck sunflowerseeds with your OTD xx
Ricks3 I went with Gynem in Prague, they were great x


----------



## esj

Hi girls.
ET went well thanks *highlandgirl* I am now a week past transfer, OTD March 1st. Have been very up and down emotionally. Had a wobble yesterday as thought I felt premenstrual but not sure if its that or the drugs. No sign of anything so far anyway touch wood.
I also just freaked out having lunch at work as I ate 4 pieces of sushi as completely forgot the advice to avoid anything raw! I know I am probably being ridiculous but just hyper sensitive and have been doing everything by the book so I'm pretty mad at myself. Been eating all the right things, cut out all caffeine, minimal sugar, no alcohol. I've even avoided riding my bike or doing any exercise at all on the nurses advice. 
Trying to be more chilled but this 2ww thing is way harder than I could have imagined.
Wishing everyone all the best xx


----------



## unicornlover

Hi everyone,thought i would give a small update.. 
So going to my first treatment consultation next week,had bloods for infection screening and all okay there,so i am having one mild ivf oe cycle.
Had a strange period which is very unlike me last time,very similar to knockers71,really sore breasts and then when period came very heavy and over in 2 days,was a bit late 3 days which again is odd for me.
Have done 3 pregnancy tests all negative,, but they are only cheap supermarket ones..will do a better one before i go to clinic as want to be 100%.
Very nervous about it all but got to try even if i can only do this once,still trying naturally in the hope a miracle will happen.
Good luck and best wishes to you all on this journey xxx


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

I'm sorry Knockers and Unicorn. Hope you're ok. 

ESJ - fingers crossed for your OTD. I'll be rooting for you.

Thanks for the well wishes, unfortunately my HCG result was below 1 so my embryos didn't even attempts to implant. My period also started very lightly this afternoon. Don't know if to try another modified natural IVF this cycle with Create, or try naturally again. We've got some tamoxifen last over from last cycle so I could use for the first few days of my cycle to us me a boost. Has anyone tried this? 

Feeling a bit numb but also realising we need to just get on with what we need to do to have a family as well as have a life.

Thank you all for your support. Wishing you all the very best wishes for the next stages in your journey.

Take care X


----------



## Altai

Sunflower, knockers - sorry about your news.
Esj - good luck with 2ww. Don't worry about raw fish. I understand it's not advisable when pregnant.  But ok otherwise. 
Unicorn, rocks - best of luck with your cycles. 

Strawberry - I know that some ladies did tandem with Serum but that was few years back. so, oe and de were allowed for transfer in the same cycle. But it could be that either legislation  has changed in that respect or Serum doesn't offer it anymore. Most clinics don't do  tandem probably due to complications in syncing two different cycles and lower success rate. Although I didn't mean tandem but oe/de combo where,for example you freeze your embryos and do transfer in a month when your donor has her EC.so one set of embryos is frozen another is fresh. 

Sunflower - gonal f is a synthetic version while fostimon is naturally derived. That is difference both are pure fsh drugs. I didn't respond well to gonal but altermon/fostimon were ok. worth trying to see if you get better outcome with fostimon. 
Unfortunately I don't have a magic protocol. Its individual thing and you must learn your body' response to different drugs. But that comes after several trials and errors (quite expensive I must say).  I did well on tamixofen with altermon/fostimon. I was on 450iu of injectables plus  2 femaras and got 5 eggs. Got same  5 eggs with tamixofen plus 100-125 altermon. Bit more eggs with 120-150iu.  Injectables every day, no cetrotide as tamixofen prevents ovulation (less expense )  so made sense even financially to do it. Because of my age, I was aiming to get as many eggs as I possibly could hoping that one would be normal. More is more. If I got more on full stimm, then I'd have done full stimm. I reasoned that hopefully would get pregnant within 10-12 cycles given my age. But obviously when first started hoped that would be up to 3 cycles. 



Hi to all who I missed. And best wishes.


----------



## Wunderwomban

Hi Everyone 

Hope you are all doing okay. Thanks Strawberry and Altai for your advice re Serum....it helps to have some inside info.

Here's a wee update from me. Getting my AMH test in 1 week at GRMC in Glasgow….plus ovarian scan...hoping AF, which is late, doesn't arrive at crucial moment. I'm not very hopeful re numbers as it looks like I didn't ovulate again this month…some signs of ovulation…but no consistent temperature rise…and have had a series of long cycles which does seem to delay everything such a lot.

At the moment tying to weigh up pros and cons of serum vs reprofit.

Reprofit have offered me OE IVF and if it fails to come back in 2 months on Marvelon for DE cycle. All cycles are fresh. Pros of Reprofit are there are daily flights from Scotland that aren't too costly. Downside is their communication seems quite slow and I find they frequently only answer part of the question which makes me wonder if it's getting lost in translation. They also mistakenly thought my last communication was a brand new enquiry and were trying to organise a Skype consultation when I already have one arranged. Waiting list of 2 months just to get that initial Skype consultation with the consultant.

Serum offer OE frozen IVF initially. They said it would be a clomid cycle, but because clomid gives poor lining I'd have to return a month later for transfer...hence the frozen embryo. If there are no suitable embryos they use standby DE instead on same visit. Pros with Serum is that Katie seems really on the ball, responds promptly and is good at explaining things. Downside is that flights from Scotland only go twice weekly, cost more and will be going up closer to summer. To complicate things my cycles are so irregular I can't plan well. Serum say I can't take any meds to regulate cycle for OE IVF as apparently that worsens quality of eggs in older women. I've asked Reprofit same question but they haven't replied. 

I can see going abroad is going to be a bit problematic getting time off work...can use annual leave but I can see that I might have to shift it last minute and can also see it might get used up quickly within a few cycles. I work for the NHS and don't want to tell my employer what I'm doing, because it feels really personal to me. I have read some women have persuaded their GP to write them a sick line citing 'gynaecological procedure' but I can see that one producing some sort of HR monitoring if I had more than 2 absences. NHS triggers HR process once you've had 3 episodes of sickness in a year.

Yeh, I empathise Ricks with the sentiments expressed re feeling that time is running out. It's all the not knowing how it will go. I'm trying to cultivate the art of being hopeful but with acceptance that I may not be successful and that I will be okay and I will still enjoy my life without being a mother. At times that's easier than others...I can say I'm getting more used to disappointment though and the arrival of AF doesn't seem to upset me as much as it used to. I think it helps if you have a few positive people around you who can instill hope. This forum defo helps!

Best to all xx


----------



## Smithysmith72

Hi Girls,

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been avidly reading all your updates though and wish you all well.

*Seaside * - Thank you for the welcome, I think our plan at the moment is to give ourselves a few months of ttc naturally again, I don't know about you but the heavy stims they gave me in November have definitely affected my hormones and I feel drained and tired. I am aware that I'm approaching my 45th birthday in June so although we don't want to hang around too long I wanted to give myself a chance to get back on track before I dive back in to another cycle of IVF. I have continued getting acupuncture and as my acupuncturist's hubby is a specialist in chinese medicine I'm also taking a herbal tea he's recommended for fertility and hormone balance....I figured it couldn't hurt could it! It smells worse that it tastes and its pretty easy to prepare so I hope it does the trick. Strangely enough my AMH was 2.7 in October 2015 when I had tests on the NHS, and yet in November 2016 when we had our first cycle of IVF and I was tested again it had increased very slightly to 2.9!! so something must be going right with the acupuncture.

I think the plan is to try naturally while we try and get more funds together and if we do go ahead with a second cycle we may look at Prague as they seem to be getting glowing reviews, and the prices are pretty comparable to the UK.

For the other girls I know who have had BFN's this past week or so, I really can imagine how you feel having been there myself. It's so hard isn't it to go through all that we do, financially and emotionally we invest so much just to be told by a single line on a test that it hasn't happened for us. I had the dilemma of talking it through with my OH who is fantastic by the way, about the possibility of being able to finance more treatment. Luckily he was very supportive and said it may take a few months but if its what we want then we will get there. I can't imagine how it must feel to not have that luxury with your partner. I always say you have to try and do whats right and possible for you. I think men cope with infertility differently, they don't seem to have the same deep need to be a parent as we do or if they do they don't process it the same way.

I'm using the clearblue advanced fertility monitor and I had two peak days this month which we did our BD'ing on. *Syd*- I sympathise with you it isn't stupid to be shell-shocked that your IVF didn't work we were exactly the same with ours and when AF turned up yesterday I was so upset I just really thought we'd get lucky straight after the IVF and conceive naturally!! I know it's improbable but I will always have hope  that we get that one golden egg, be it an oldy, and that it does the business!!

Who knows what the future holds but for now I will continue to stay optimistic and enjoy trying to make a beautiful baby until my body stops producing eggs. The fertility monitor showed low at the beginning of the month, high for five days prior to my peak and peak for two days, I also got my EWCM so it seems at east I'm still ovulating! Still hoping I'll be a mum someday. I know I have a lot to be grateful for, I have a wonderful support network, a fantastic partner and a wonderful family. Lots to be grateful for I think.

I do have a question for some of you ladies and sorry if its tmi....when I stopped the progesterone pessaries at the end of December after the IVF cycle didn't work and had my first bleed it was absolutely crippling, worse cramps, bad clotting and heavier than I've ever had before. The last two AF's have been very heavy and clotty too with bad pains, did you experience the same? Is it likely to be my body still clearing all that lining out or should I go see my doctor? I'm worried its hormonal changes.

*Strawberry* - I will always try to defy those 'experts' who tell me there's no hope. Look at the ladies on here it's happened for.....anything can happen!!

Love to all, stay positive!! Sending lots of luck and baby dust to you all,

xxxx


----------



## Syd72

Hi Smithy, sorry af turned up. Honestly I'm still feeling shocked it didn't work, at least briefly!

I had the complete opposite to you, first period after ivf/progesterone was much lighter than normal which worries me in case not everything is cleared out. Trying naturally again this month and currently in the tww. 

Best of luck.

Hi to everyone else, I've been absent for a bit but trying to catch up.


----------



## Knockers71

I had a normalish bleed the 2 periods after progesterone, maybe slightly heavier, and this last period was two weeks late and very light. It's hard to know what's going on in our bodies, and how long it takes to settle down after Ivf x


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Sunflower I'm really sorry and hope you figure out a plan from here. Tough journey sometimes   Thanks also yes communication with Serum is good thankfully. I'm planning to go out next month for EC and then have a bit of a break as I've got so many other things going on in my life, work, study, house renovating etc, argh!  

HighlandGirl good luck this month, wishing you the best 🍀 Thanks for starting this thread  

Ricks I'm on a fruit & veg only weekend, trying to cleanse my system & lose a few lbs   My clinic prescribed melatonin for egg quality. Glad your gynae exam went well. All the best.

Knockers good luck for your next cycle. Yes bodies can be a bit confusing! My hormones feel all over the place since my MC and the skin on my face has gone all red, blotchy itchy & a bit scaly- lovely!  

ESJ all the best with your 2ww! And fingers cross for your OTD  

Unicorn good luck with your consultation  

Altai thanks for the info & clarifying the combo cycle, will ask about that  

Marigold I'm doing that same clomid protocol. I also work for the NHS and know about the absence policy etc - a bit of a nightmare   I had my last back to work meeting with HR instead, as my experience of confidentiality at work has been abysmal   All the best  

Smithy I was also thinking about Prague if needed in future for DE. I'm not sure about your progesterone question but my body's taken ages after my mc to get back to normal too. This week I had more CM than usual which made me ask Dr Google about it!   Sometimes it takes longer than others to get back to normal.

Syd hi hope you're well also  

Sorry if I've missed anyone- have a good weekend All xx


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Strawberry.

So I had a fair bit of pink blood on wiping last night, nothing since. Can you get ovulation bleeding 3 days after ovulation? Or is it more likely to be connected to ivf last month?


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi 

Syd - The cycle I conceived naturally I had a bleed 2 days after I'd ovulated. At the time I thought I'd ovulated again until I got a BFP. I'm not sure if it was a fertilisation sign, if there is such a thing. I also got an implantation bleed as well a few days before my AF was due. Fingers crossed its a BFP sign.

Altai - thanks for the advice. It's interesting to see what worked for others. How wonderful if we knew the secret to what would work. 

Thanks Strawberry, trying to stay positive and focusing on what we need to do to achieve our dream. At the moment it feels quite pressured going for another cycle, I don't feel strong enough for any more disappointments and don't feel confident that it would be anything else with our current clinic. Think I need to be in a positive place first and would kind of like to feel I have a life, have crazy, passionate love making and naturally conceive. Hahaha, this is wishful thinking. Anyway I hope your EC goes well. From what I've heard of Serum you're in good hands. 

Started spotting on Thursday and looks like AF has arrived today. I had clexane and Prednisolone after EC/ET, sorry tmi but my AF seem very watery, not sure if it's because of the blood thinner. Is this normal?  

We have some tamoxifen left over so going to use that while we decide what else to try. Would love for this to work. 

Smith - re: progesterone, apart from the CP where it was very heavy, clots and fairly painful, the other times it was heavy ish and felt like period pains. 

Sending lots of positivity to you all.

X


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 

Sorry for lack of personals I know I started the thread but this question is for you all please help!
AF day 1 - 4/5 ish as per usual quite heavy days 1 and 2 with clots then normal 
BD day 8 
Using Clearblue advanced monitor peak on day 10 and 11
BD day 10
All going well so far then I wake up yesterday to what started as brown then pink spotting so thinking maybe implantation ( same as you Syd )
Gets heavier and heavier so when I went bed had to use a tampon 
Just got up and there is clots and red on tampon 
So sorry if too much info just looking for advice this is only day 14 and AF has only finished on day 5
How can there be clotting etc when the lining etc has only just gone I am stumped also upset if this is the start of the m word it can !!!! Right off  
Also have really sore back which usually accompanies AF
Aaarrgghh!
Advice please ladies x


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Highlander,

I used Clomid a few years ago for a few cycles, afterwards I had very heavy, clotting periods for a few months. It was like my body was trying to reset and clear out my womb. Sorry sounds weird but that's the only way I can describe what happened.

I ended up having fertility massages for a few months and it helped to settle my cycle. Can't find a link to where I went but here's a useful site.

http://www.fertilitymassage.co.uk/

Hope your AF settles down X

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that neither fertilityfriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Again Ladies!

Also thinking I have letrozole that was prescribed by the clinic and an ovitrelle injection x 4 cycles worth - so should I start taking this today day 2 of this crazy cycle to jump start things or leave well alone as the last 3 cycles I have had naturally have all been around 26 days with a peak on the monitor and confirmed OV by progesterone tests 7 days after OV? But no BFP obviously??
Again thoughts welcome as I would need to start letrozole today and book scan for tomorrow?
xx


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Have I frightened you all off with my ranting??
I hope not! 
I am now finishing the mid cycle bleed - had an AFC scan just to see what where I was and this was confirmed as a mid cycle bleed so I am now a bit calmer.
I am now going to wait for day 1 of next AF and decide whether to try the letrozole or go for another short protocol IVF cycle.
Keep this thread alive ladies we need each other xx


----------



## ricks3

Hi Highlandgirl - have been reading but didn't have any advice I am afraid as not something I have experience of. Glad you are feeling calmer though and sending you lots of love. xxx


----------



## Gemini40

Hello- lots of new names on the board, I have disappeared for a while because I literally thought I was going to have a melt down. Had my scan at 9.5 weeks and baby ok but consultant seen what could be a amniotic band- serious pregnancy complication. She told me not to google it and off course I didn't take her advice and spent two weeks crying. She is to repeat the scan next week. For my own mental health I went to see someone private for another scan and clinical opinion. Baby looked good and and now the guts of 12 weeks. She done an internal scan to get a closer look and from that she could see the band which has not come into contact with baby but it is still there. Feeling more hopeful a present from seeing the baby yesterday but it has taken the happiness out of the situation because it is like landmind just sitting there. The consultant was very reassuring that in most cases it does turn out ok. The joke of it all is it has nothing to do with age or genetics, just a fluke happening.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi ladies 
Thanks ricks feeling calmer now and have re booked blood tests for tomorrow so back on the train again  

Gemini - I can't even imagine how you are feeling but I am glad you had the courage to seek a second opinion which sounds like it may have put your mind at rest if only for the moment but as you say this is just a chance happening and nothing you could have done to avoid it so try and stay as positive as you can and really look after yourself so glad you are at the 12 week stage and rooting for you for the next scan xx keep us posted and give us all hope x


----------



## Smithysmith72

Hi all, hope you are all doing ok. 
It's actually been really reassuring reading all your posts as I was convinced I was the only one that panicked or noticed every little change in my body. It's nice to know when your going on this journey that your not alone. 

AF was really odd like I said in my last post. Very clotty very painful and sorry if tmi but at times when I sat on the loo I could actually feel blood trickling out of me! This lasted for two and a half days and then back to normal for the last day and a half. It's left me feeling exhausted so been eating lots of nuts and green leafy veg to try and boost my Vit D, iron and omega 3 levels. 

I'm not back to testing days on my ovulation monitor so here we go again on the rollercoaster of ttc naturally. We have decided to make enquiries at the clinic in Prague and then are looking to maybe organise a consultation some time in late April early may but still hoping like other ladies that some passionate crazy BD'ing will bring me a baby without the assistance of an embryologist. We have also decided that if we go for cycle no. 2 that we won't be telling anyone this time, although my DH's dad had offered to help out financially which is fantastic and more than I could have hoped for, but would mean his parents would know. 

I just feel that the more people who know the more pressure on you to make it work. When it doesn't work you then have to meet expectant faces with the news. It was horrible. My DH has also suggested if we do go to Prague that after the ET that we go off for a holiday somewhere straight away for the tww to take away the pressure of work and daily life and atleast that way I'll have done everything I possibly could. 

Let's hope nature does the business For as many of us as poss!

Ooh also are any of you taking ubiqinol? If so where do you get it from? I've heard it's beneficial so would love to hear your thoughts. 

Love to all, keep that positivity flowing and sending good happy thoughts to all you lovely brave ladies. xxxxxxxxx


----------



## esj

Hi All

Sorry for lack of personals, I had my OTD yesterday and was given the news its a 'low positive'. Totally shocked and cautiously optimistic but its also hard to get too excited. I'm going back tomorrow for a repeat blood test and if the levels have doubled its a definite positive. From what I've read it could go either way so I am praying its in our favour.


----------



## ricks3

Gemini – so sorry to read your post – I hope and pray your little one is ok. Glad you got the 2nd opinion and sending lots of love. Xx

Highlandgirl – how were the blood tests?

Syd – Happy Birthday  keeping everything crossed for you xx 

Smithy – we are also looking at Prague and will probably go with Gennet – I had my consultation yesterday and they were really good. We’re not telling anyone either for the same reasons. 

I get my Ubiquinol from Amazon – Solgar Ubiquinol 200mg (60 Softgels (2 bottles))  for £39.98 and Solgar-Ubiquinol 100mg (Reduced CoQ-10) Softgels - 50  for £25.95 – recommended dose is 300mg so I take 200 and 1 100 every day to make it up to 300 mg. xx 

ESJ – keeping everything crossed for you xxxx

Love to everyone xxx


----------



## unicornlover

Hi everyone,  

lots going on for everybody here,its so good to have this to share stories,information,fears,with people who understand exactly what it feels like to want a baby so much and what you have to go through to get that chance.
A bit of an update from my treatment consultation this week,to be honest i felt totally overwhelmed with the thought of it all (natural modified ivf) and not having any support off my oh is so hard..but having spoken to a lovely man who just happened to be around while i was waiting (he did work there) who was so understanding and listened to my worries,a lovely nurse who every time she passed me had a kind word and a smile made a massive difference to how i felt.,so im hoping to go with the next cycle which isnt too far away..doing the injections is going to be very hard for me as i am needle phobic but got to think why im doing it etc..my partner is struggling to get his head round it all and they want to see him as he hasnt come with me yet, so hoping he co-operates when the time comes.
Thanks Strawberry,Altai,Sunflower for the thoughts..and my best wishes to all of you ladies on here xxxx


----------



## Syd72

Congrats esj, that's great news. Keep us posted.

I also used solgar ubiquinol from amazon, took 300 a day for months and months before ivf, didn't seem to do me any good. Now for the first time ever I'm thinking of trying dhea, you can buy it over the counter here, had a blood test to check levels today.


----------



## Gemini40

Thanks ladies for your support. Repeat scan on Wed coming, feeling positive about the situation at minute. The private consultant really helped me. Thinking of going private now with her, cost 2000 for her to oversee pregnancy and delivery. Sounds like a no brainer when you consider how much we spend on ivf, especially now with possible complication.

Esj, excited for you, hope u get good news.


----------



## LuckyE

congratulations ESJ    

Lots going on with everyone. 

Planning to TTC naturally with fella for the next two months before going for my frozen embies... Really need to get healthy though... start with all the pills...but just don't feel optimistic...  

a) low AMH
b) got a bald patch in my uterus after fibroid op
c) got a tube that's stuck down after my fibroids op.
d) 44 years young

I know there are miracles... I'm gonna need one.   
He's optimistic. but men always are...


----------



## Blondie71

Aww Gemini scary times   hopefully all will be well   If you go privately what happens if baby comes early and needs neonatal? Be really careful as my boys were in neonatal and another couple went private and they had to find 200k for his treatment as her work insurance denied coverage when hospital was changed on delivery day due to no beds (they figured it out eventually) but do make sure insurance will pay that as going back to nhs may not be an option once you've gone private 😕


----------



## Wunderwomban

Hi all....good to hear everyones updates....

I went to GRMC today in Glasgow to get an ovarian scan and AMH levels tested....was quite a contrast to NHS scan I had 6 months ago....in a good way. Was expecting them not to be able to find ovaries as that happened last time...but scanner was tenacious and found them with a lot of prodding...ouch! Was relieved that I actually have ovaries! ....but think follicle count is quite low. She only saw 1 follicle on one ovary and 3 on the other. Told me it was in keeping with my age....felt positively ancient! I'm still playing catchup with all the IVF techno science....but am I right in thinking that I would only get 4 eggs collected if I have only 4 follicles, even with stimulation drugs? Or can stim drugs create more follicles than are there at the beginning? 

Hope everyone has a nice weekend xx


----------



## LuckyE

*marigold* - 4 follicle means POTENTIALLY 4 eggs. It's not guaranteed.


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Lots happening on here! 

Good luck Gemini & ESJ! 

Marigold my follicles always changed during my ivf cycles, I usually grew extra follicles, think I had about 10 on one scan, but was disappointed by the number of eggs collected (7,5,4 aged 39,41,41) - that was on quite high stim drugs, which I don't think suited me. I cried my eyes out when I only got 2 with Serum's gentle Clomid natural cycle, but the embryos were better quality grades (I know that means nothing as I still had a mc). In other words it can vary a lot and you can grow more follicles  

I'm waiting for my AF so I can plan next Clomid cycle, no sign of it yet! If it doesn't arrive by tues I'll have to go to Serum on my own, so probably that will be the case! My erpc was 2 wks ago but confirmation of my mc was 20th Jan, so I feel like I've been waiting for ages to get back to normal


----------



## esj

Thanks All for the encouraging words but I got the worst news on Friday- levels dropped right down so it was a chemical pregnancy. I think its worse than a straight NO to have our hopes raised then dashed. This can be such a cruel process. My other half is also pretty devastated as he'd been more enthusiastic than me about it working anyway. To make it worse all i can see on my social media feed is pregnant friends and babies everywhere I look. So upsetting.
Went away with friends for the weekend as the trip had been planned a while so it took my mind off things temporarily. Now back at work and feeling pretty emotional today.
We have one frostie left but the weakest Grade one 6 cell day 3 so I'm not holding out much hope for that. Feeling pretty bereft at the moment. Planning to just try naturally this month, do the next transfer in April then make a decision about moving forward. I'll turn 45 in May.
I am still not ready to switch to donor eggs and partner really doesn't want to consider it right now. I just dont know how much more heartbreak and money burning I can cope with. I think we've spent around 12k so far just to get 3 embryos. Not sure I even made the right choice to do Natural modified but it seemed like the best option after my poor response to full IVF 2 years ago.
I'd like to find out more about Serum and clomid banking. How often do you actually need to go to the clinic? Thats the main thing that puts me off- I chose Create also down to location halfway between work and home, the thought of having to fly to appointments is not that enticing.
Also does anyone know about using Clomid with a natural cycle? I know it thins the lining so maybe not a good option unless in controlled IVF process. 
For me a natural pregnancy is the absolute dream but there are so many obstacles let alone my age and egg quality, my partner has performance issues (brought on by the pressure of course). We did get pregnant naturally before I was 40 but miscarried. I use the advanced fertility monitor which is great at pinpointing exact ovulation time but I'm also thinking of trying mooncups or the Stork device, even IUI. 3 days in a row is a lot to expect him to be able to perform.
*Syd72* I'm thinking of starting on DHEA too. I have some at home which I never took for more than a few days as was scared off it. Now feel I have nothing to lose.
Any words of encouragement would be welcome right now as I'm feeling pretty despondent.


----------



## Syd72

I'm so sorry esj. I can't give you much in the way of advise as I've only done the one round of "regular" ivf but I do understand what you're feeling right now. My OH won't consider DE although I certainly would.

I'm definitely going to try dhea, in fact I meant to pop in to the vitamin place on my way home from work but forgot. I'm a bit scared of the side effects but want to give it a try. I've had my levels tested and they're within range albeit on the lower side.

Hope the others can offer some advice.


----------



## Flyby

Hi esj,

Just to let you know that I did Clomid banking at Serum and flew out on the evening of cycle day 8, had a scan on the morning of day 9, usually always triggered on that same evening and had egg collection on day 11, flying home later on that day... I did this four months in a row whilst waiting for fibroid removal surgery to heal. Then extremely luckily, it worked for me on my first transfer at age 44. Hope this helps, F x


----------



## esj

Thank you for your thoughts *Syd72*I know you've just been through it so must still be pretty raw for you too.
Great to hear you had a positive outcome at 44 with Serum* Flyby* thats so encouraging.
xx


----------



## dolphinx

*esj* - disappointed for you. A positive that turns negative seems especially cruel.

Hi everyone else, I've been a bit quiet since my recent IVF failure, just taking some time out from fertility related thoughts for a while and doing some normal stuff!! But back now and planning next steps.

Re. the DHEA discussion I jumped directly in without any blood tests or advice from a doctor after reading the Rebecca Fett book. I travel to US so quite easy to get hold of so I started taking 50mg about 4 months ago (decided on my own dosing regime based on age etc.  )

I don't know how relevant this is, but I had my initial consultation at Create today and was v. surprised (shocked) to be told I had polycystic ovaries? Doctor said AMH was 'too high' for my age and when he did the scan I had an AFC of 17. This is really weird as I've never been told I have PCOS, have regular periods and have also never had an AFC that high, even in my 30s.

I can't help but wonder if the DHEA has brought this about? I can't think what else would lead me to develop PCOS at my age? Has anyone heard of this before? The only other potential is I have developed greasy teenage skin which I thought was related to IVF cycle but hasn't cleared up since.

Bottom line is I'm now wishing I had my bloods tested before starting the DHEA....


----------



## Gemini40

Hi dolphinx,  I have read a lot about dhea and I know you shouldn't take it if u have pcos not that it causes it though.  I know it improves quality not sure about increasing amh but people do get more eggs after using it.


----------



## unicornlover

Hi ESJ 

Just wanted to say im so sorry to hear what has happened and i dont really know what to say as i havent gone through any treatment as yet,but i do know that feeling when af comes every month, when you have allowed yourself that tiny bit of hope, when you are maybe one day later than normal that it might actually have happened and then that sinking feeling when the cramps start.
Just give yourself time to heal and see how you feel,im doing a natural modified cycle soon and can only do it once ( due to finances) but if it doesnt work i expect i would want to try again if i had the chance and there was still the option to do it.
Best wishes x


----------



## TTCNK

Hi ESJ, so sorry to read your news, I have been there too - take some time.  For me constant planning my next steps mentally helped me move on, but everyone is different.    I did not do Clomid banking but did use Letrozole whilst TTC naturally and that seemed to work for me  ( age 46).  This was second cycle after IVF failure.  I did not use DHEA - but was about to test my levels and consider it.      I was strict with my supplements - Pregnacare, Vitamin D, Vitamin B1, CO-enzyme 10  and another bunch of vitamins with more folic in them Juice Plus ( was trying to lose weight).    Wishing you best of luck x


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi ESJ, 

I'm so sorry to hear your news. Hope you're bearing up. 

Please take the time to be kind to yourself and grieve. 

When I had a CP a lot of people seem to dismiss the significance that it was a pregnancy, the start of a new life. It hurts just as much as other losses. 

You take care x


----------



## esj

Thank you so much everyone for kind words, support and advice. Its helping me get through this difficult week.
Seeing clinic tomorrow re: transfer of the one frostie left. Cant decide whether to jump straight in (means cancelling a trip in two weeks) or take this cycle out and do it next month. Have contacted Serum already I think they will be my next port of call.
*Dolphinx* Thanks for sharing re: DHEA- I think I'll pause until checking levels.
*Unicornlover* Good luck with your cycle - praying for you 
*TTCNK* Your story gives me hope thank you so much. Am taking all those supplements too. Not sure where I can get hold of Letrozole or if I should self prescribe but will ask consultant tomorrow.
love to all 
xxxx


----------



## StrawberrySundae

ESJ I'm really sorry   Yes it's so cruel xx I'm doing my second Clomid banking cycle with Serum soon. I went out twice, once for a week with my DH for the EC and a month later on my own for the transfer. Will do the same when my next AF arrives, but going both times on my own and as short a time as possible this time. Looks like it might be April when I go over as my AF is taking ages after my MC in Jan. Serum told me not to take DHEA when I asked about it. I agree it's such an expensive process having repeated ivf! I dread to think how much we've spent so far    

Flyby that is so amazing hearing about how lucky you were. Can I ask how old you were during the Clomid banking that you did? I know some people transfer Frosties from a few years previous, were yours taken when you were 44? I don't have any frozen at the moment.

Sunflower I agree, when I had a CP last September I was just as upset as some other MC's, plus we were crying a lot as we thought it was our last chance. Then we decided to go to Serum & now we're carrying on!  

Dolphins I've heard that about DHEA and greasy skin, the jury seems to be out on that supplement? I hope it settles down for you soon. I've got that book too and taking ubiquinol, melatonin, etc. I was on L-Arginine & Inositol but stopped those.

I've got to the point where I've stopped worrying about my AF not arriving and quite glad I don't have to go rushing over to Greece for a while now! Body knows best   Will probably change my mind tomorrow and get impatient again!  

Have a nice rest of week everyone x


----------



## dolphinx

Thanks all for the comments. I still can't get my head around the PCOS diagnosis, and after doing a bit more reading I'm a bit sceptical.... you need to have at least 2 of 3 symptoms and the only one I have is a higher AFC than normal for my age. What is really confusing though is that my AFC has never been high before. 

Nevertheless I chased about today to try and find Inofolic which was recommended by consultant at Create. Its a mixture of myo-inositol and folic which I figure can't do any harm.

Wondering if I should stop the DHEA. If I do have PCOS then probably I should stop. But if I don't then I can't help but wonder if the the higher AFC is because of DHEA and could this be a good thing?

Nothing simple is it


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Dolphinx, 

My AFC at 43 was 13 and I also had a dominant egg so 14 follicles in total. So it's possible your AFC is just good for your age. 

I also took DHEA to help with egg quality. The above was pre DHEA. It didn't seem to change my AFC as it's normally between 12-18, during DHEA, depending on the day of my cycle. 

I've stopped taking it for the last IVF cycle (was at Create) and not started it again. Want to see if it makes any difference. 

I've had mixed messages from Create so it be worth getting a second opinion. 

Good luck X


----------



## Flyby

Strawberry, my embryos were frozen for the four months leading up to my 44th birthday, the last collection being the month before I turned 44. These were the ones that were transferred first, a couple of months later as they seemed like a good lot. F x


----------



## dolphinx

Thanks for the feedback sunflower. Did Create mention PCOS to you? Your AMH and AFC are pretty much the same as mine (my new AFC that is!).

Maybe my 'a little higher than ideal' BMI helped him reach that conclusion lol.

I know I've jumped around a bit in terms of treatments but feel like every doctor has given me different information.


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Flyby thank you!   Shows there is hope and sometimes it's just a numbers game   

No idea what my AFC or AMH are these days, so just going to roll the dice another time   I wonder if I should get them retested with Serum? 

Btw I created a post about steroids but no answer yet - has anyone here experienced anything like adrenal fatigue after coming off steroids after IVF/pregnancy? Just wondering if I've got that or it's just normal exhaustion?!


----------



## Wez

Hello I'm back

I shouldnt be in here as Im now using a donor egg but this is the only thread i go in being an old bat!

Just had a CMV test...Negative so the pool of Donors either frozen or fresh is smaller I'm told. Does anyone know the pros and cons, I,m 46.

I'm stil with Create at Birmingham, I just don't know whether to sign this bit of paper that came thru the post to give them confirmation to search positive result donors.  

I just dunnooooooo!!!!


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi 

Dolphinx - I had my original AMH and AFC at Care (2 years ago) and they didn't mention PCOS. They just said it was good for my age. I had a FET last year and at day 10 I was showing 14-18 follicles, again they didn't say anything about PCOS. The recent tests were with Create. AFC was 8/9 at day 2 and 12 on day 5. 

Of course everyone is different so they may have picked up some other indicator with you. It may be an idea to ask them about their rationale for diagnosis. 

Strawberry - I suffered with sleep during/after my last treatment. Not sure if it was different meds or anxiety of having treatment. 

Wes - good luck with the next steps of your journey. In making your decision to go with them again it would be interesting to know of any successes Create has had with OE/DE. I could only find successes on a few pregnancies but no live births. It was only verbally they advised of successes. A few people on here have had treatment there, maybe they can help with advice. 

Wish you and everyone good luck in your journeys 

X


----------



## esj

Hi Ladies
*StrawberrySundae* I haven't noticed any fatigue since coming off the steroids but I have had a very tough week emotionally. Not sure if its amplified by all the hormones or just the anxiety of tx and chemical pregnancy result.
Visited Create 2 days ago for a follow up and discuss what to do with the remaining frozen embryo. Discussed having a scratch (which I now wish I had done before the transfer that just failed as that was the best two embryos) but not 100% decided. Anyone any experience or thoughts on this? The embryo I have is only a 3d 6cell grade one, is it worth it? so confused and overwhelmed at the moment.


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

ESJ - so sorry to hear about your CP it so stressful but at least you have a frostie and I would go for it if I were you x

I am just waiting for AF now after my CD14 - CD18 bleed which I have now counted as day 1 - 4 as I couldnt get my head around it so now on CD17 ( or 30? ) but I feel like it is CD17 and when I tested on OPK it shows high so DTD yesterday just in case!
I am still trying to decide whether to use the letrozole pills with ovitrelle OV trigger for the next 4 months hoping it may create more than 1 egg as I have these from my clinic or go straight for another IVF cycle but may need to convince DH about the IVF again 
My clinic are not giving me positive vibes as they are not sure if I will get any eggs this time although I got 3 last time 2 fertilised and I had 2 embies put back so I say why wouldnt I get at least 1 this time!
Anyway waiting on a new AMH and Vit D result to see if my AMH has gone down as this will let me know if I am still in the game fingers crossed - was 2.8 last March heres hoping its not gone down too much!  
Hope you are all staying strong on this rollercoaster - keep up the posts everyone they help us all xxx


----------



## TTCNK

Hi there, was just having a quick catch up on how you are all doing, always to amazing to see such determination.  StrawberrySundae on your steroids questions - yes I always have terrible exhaustion / weakness / headaches when I come off them - even after a short time or slowly tapering.  I have not found anything that helps other than a some gentle exercise (walking) and going to bed earlier than usual.  You have to wait for your cortisol levels to get back to normal.  They say sunshine helps too - vitamin D and direct sunlight on retina ( if you can find some!).  Highland Girl - I don't think letrozole would do any harm as you try make the decision - I usually got 2 / 3 follicles on it ( 10Mg dosage) - good luck with your decision!
Have a good week all xx


----------



## Agaamh

@TTCNK
How is your pregnancy going?I have a question on a dosage of letrozole.
this 10mg dosage of letrozole did you take each day
for 5 days or in total (2,5 mg a day)? My doctor put me on 5 mg a day for 5 
days.Did you have any side effects apart of getting pregnant

Greetings to everybody.I am back to basics meaning TTC naturally (with a little support
of letrozole)


----------



## Blondie71

Esj go for the scratch!! In fact try anything that may help, clexane & prednisolone too. Don't give up on 3dt either, my boys are a 3dt ☺ x


----------



## Wunderwomban

Hi Everyone
Update from me is I got my ovarian assessment report back from independent clinic….it’s not good news….  I can’t believe how bad it is. AMH only 0.63….was expecting it might be around 2ish….but not this bad….listed as ‘low for my age’ and told ‘negligible response to fertility drugs expected’. More depressing news is my follicle count seems to have gone down. When I had the scan last week, she told me she saw one follicle on one ovary and a few on the other….but in the report it says only 1 follicle (under 10mm)….I’m presuming the others she gave me verbal feedback on are more than 10mm and therefore somehow not commented on in the report. Does anyone know why follicles of over 10mm aren’t commented on….are they not viable or something? Also not had AF for 60 days….feel like I’m fading out fast. Got my Skype consultation on Thursday with Reprofit…but I think persuading them with OE may be difficult with those kinds of figures. Having a wee cry and then back to the drawing board   xx


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Good morning 😊 Thank you ladies for the reassurance about steroids, will probably just have to build myself back up.

Wez sorry what is a CMV test?

ESJ I had a scratch last time at Serum, not painful at all. I've had a uterine biopsy the previous year and that was another story however   I'm not sure in my case the scratch makes much difference but might be worth a try, every little helps! Really sorry about your CP  

HighlandGirl good luck in deciding about your meds. It's mind boggling sometimes!  

Marigold I'm sorry about the bad report   Follicles do seem to vary month by month, maybe you were tested at a bad time?

Still no sign of my AF, but hoping it doesn't show up til the end of the month now, as I can't go to Serum til after then now. Not sure what my body's up to  

Take care all x


----------



## esj

Thanks for the reassurance *Strawberrysundae*. Spoke to doctor the other day who said a scratch won't do any harm but since I had a CP and have had a couple of pregnancies before and a miscarriage it suggests implantation is not the problem. Its pretty much down to egg quality at my age. Still cant decide what to do! If I do it means we have to abstain from trying naturally this month too I believe...and its £350 which I know is not much in the grand scheme of things but it all adds up.
Decisions decisions...
Hope your AF behaves! So annoying when things are up in the air and waiting around.
XX


----------



## Eloise242

Esj I have not long finished the last transfer that came from the Mild Stimulated package.  I was with Create; I had the scratch and Steroids  
Mine was not successful unfortunately.


----------



## esj

Hi *Eloise242* thank you for your comment. It looks like we have a lot in common, both age-wise and sharing the same clinic. I am so sorry it didnt work for you this time, I totally empathise. Wishing you all the best xxx


----------



## TTCNK

Hi Agaamh - sorry for delayed response.  All going well with me so far 17 weeks 3 days.. a little boy.      I took 10mg per day on days 2-6 of my cycle.  No real issues except the first cycle when my ovaries felt a bit tender.  Hope this helps xx


----------



## Wunderwomban

Thanks Strawberry for the alternative perspective….you are a positive influence on this thread….think I need to try and cultivate some of your attitude  it turns out the reason the other follicles weren’t listed on the report was because they were just under the cut off of 2mm and therefore they don’t report on them. AF finally appeared from missing in action by over a month yesterday. Felt such a relief. I’ve just started exercising at the gym this week and I’m not sure if that helped.

I spoke to Reprofit by Skype today….Dr Bagosci. He told me my chances of success with OE are 1% but was understanding of why I would at least want to make one attempt. I felt in quite good hands with him. He wants to start me off minimal stimulation of Clomifen and Menopur with a view to OE IVF in June. Downside is he’s recommending Marvelon contraceptive from tomorrow to help regulate cycle as it’s getting increasingly irregular. He said he thinks my periods will stop completely in 1 year going on my hormone levels. Obviously the downside is that I shut off that incredibly slim chance of conceiving naturally. He also said that if OE IVF doesn’t work I need to remain on pill to keep up workability of uterus for potential DE IVF as it will start to degenerate soon! He did apologise for using the word degenerate! I don’t like the idea of being on pill as it means theres absolutely no chance of natural conception before or after IVF. I asked him about DHEA….he said that it only may improve egg numbers not quality, but said that although it initially seemed promising there’s now no evidence for it so he doesn’t recommend it. 

Best to all xx


----------



## stelpo

Hi ladies, just been having a wee read but haven't read all the messages apologies! Just wanted to give you all a ray of hope with my chequered story....I have a long history with infertility, I spent 5 years ttc with my ex husband 20 odd years ago (who then went on to have 2 babies immediately with someone else) then spent 15 years single pretty much, so fast forward to age 41 with new DH and in addition to my own unexplained issues, we discovered that he has very very few sperm - first sample there was only One single solitary one. Urologist told dh not to even bother with ivf and accept he would never have children. Despite this we tried IVF, and on the third cycle conceived twins but sadly lost one at 8 weeks and the other devastatingly at at 21 weeks after my water broke. This nearly finished me off. Unbelievably after another 2 cycles we got a bfp and had our boy when I was 43. Even more unbelievably, we had a natural bfp a year later when I was a month short of 45 and had a little girl. Never ever give up ladies, though I know I have been unbelievably lucky and not everyone will be, there is always hope. Much love and luck to you all xx


----------



## highlandgirl

Hi All,

Sorry been MIA had my family staying!
Thanks to you Stelpo for your amazing and positive story as it give us real hope that even with the slimmest of chances you can go on to conceive not once but twice and with IVF and naturally I am so pleased for you and really appreciate you coming onto our thread to share this xx
Can I ask which clinic you used as this may be helpful to our ladies?
TTCNK - I am so pleased for you with your news - a boy! Big hugs!xx
Again another positive story from the thread and only using letrozole! xx
Gemini - how is your BFP coming along?


Well I am sorry to share less positive news but keeping the faith - my AMH was tested last March = 2.8 test results came back yesterday at 1.1 so I am really not sure where to go next....
xx


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Stelpo I love stories like that, thank you for sharing!   I know how devastating it is to have a late loss, I'm so glad you got your family in the end. A woman who worked with my DH last year apparently got pregnant naturally with her last child when she was 48!  

Sorry Marigold and HighlandGirl sorry you've not had news you wanted recently   I hope you get some answers or ideas soon.

Hope you all have a good weekend xx


----------



## Wunderwomban

Thanks for the thought Strawberry…..Highlandgirl….sorry to hear about your AMH being low….it happened to me last week and I was really surprised….though mine is lower than yours….I did some research and read that AMH only tells us about quantity and not necessarily quality so could still have some quality eggs but just less of them….and I also read that although overall low AMH indicates you may move out of fertile time faster….that for some women AMH levels can be low for years and not necessarily mean an imminent end to fertile time. Was at a works do last night and it was hard listening to everyone talk about their children….most of the time I’m okay with hearing that sort of chat….but at the moment with the stress of tests, treatments etc….it’s harder to take. I’m trying to exercise more as I know my BMI is too high and an acupuncturist told me my energy levels were very low…..and cut back my vino/gin consumption to saturday nights only…. think there is still some hope, but it is hard to know next steps and its sure not easy....but as you say keep the faith xx


----------



## unicornlover

Hi everyone,
Havent been on here a while...started treatment this week  
All new to me,injections are not as bad as i expected but still tough as i hate needles,had 2 scans/bloods this week, next scan Monday,possibly EC on Thursday eeek....
Hope everyone is okay and good luck for treatment,Stelpo thats amazing  
xx


----------



## estella

Stelpo, just wanted to add - what an amazing story!!

HighlandGirl, AMH can rise also not just go down and there are stories of people conceiving with 0.somethings!!

Best of luck Unicornlover and all you girls on this journey!!!

xx


----------



## LuckyE

such an inspiring story Stelpo! It's given me hope, it really has. xx


----------



## estella

I always find this woman's story inspirational and it gives me hope:

https://thegoodshufu.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/how-i-got-pregnant-naturally-at-45/

Hope it helps some of you x

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/size]


----------



## Syd72

Hi ladies, I've been trying to keep up with what's going on with everyone but staying fairly quiet, mostly because I've only recently had my first round of IVF so don't feel I have any worthwhile advice to contribute.

Besidetheseaside, hope all is well.

Stelpo, lovely story.

Very best of luck to everyone starting/undergoing treatment at the moment.

I'm waiting to ovulate, second month after failed IVF.  Started dhea a week or so ago, just 50 a day, no side affects so far.  Still planning on doing an unmedicated IUI at Lister in April.  I assume, like most things, dhea will take a good 3 months to have any positive effects so will think about what I want to do come the summer.  Having gotten pregnant twice naturally last year I can't help but think my body didn't like the drugs so wondering if a mild round of IVF could be an option, assuming I can persuade my OH to give it one more go...

Highlandgirl, so sorry about your amh results but as estella says, not only can it still go up (mine did) but people do conceive with very low amh.  Someone on another forum I'm on has just conceived naturally having been told last year there was no chance.


----------



## esj

*Stelpo* that is an inspiring story thank you for sharing. 
*Estella* I have the book by Tracy Slater the lady who's blog you mentioned. Another amazing journey, I highly recommend reading it. 
*Syd72* glad to hear from you. Sounds like you have a good plan in place.
Nothing to report from me just waiting til next cycle so I can do the FET. Trying to not overthink and stay in the moment. Not always easy but hearing positive stories on here helps.
Love to all xxx


----------



## estella

Esj thanks sounds great - I must add that book to my teetering book pile 


Good luck to everybody xx


----------



## Agaamh

@TTCNK 
thank you for your answer. Congratulations for a boy 

After letrozole, I had three eggs, as we don't go for another ICSI, so I can only hope that it will work naturally. I had a better response than being on high dosage of gonal. That is crazy.And my endometrium was not badly affected.
According to my doctors, my "advanced maternal" age (45) is a critical factor that affect my chances to get pregnant. The fact that my hormone levels are quite good for my age, it doesn't mean anything in this age. According to another doctor from BE, statistically I have the same chances of getting pregnant naturally as with help of ICSI on my OE (below 1%). The hormones can vary from a cycle to another cycle, so it is advisable to repeat checks in some consecutive months.
I still consider to go for another ICSI, but the time is flying so fast, and according to the law in BE (age limit), I am not allowed to do it here. Flying abroad did not contribute  a lot in my case. Too stressful for me. I always had a strong cold after transfer. 

regarding DHEA and acupuncture, I had failed ICSI. That I wrote about it some "pages" ago. So I am not taking DHEA anymore and not looking for acupuncture treatments. I only follow a healthy and balanced diet and do three times a week sport (just aerobic) as I usually did.

I wish to all ladies on this thread all the best!


----------



## stelpo

Thank you for all your lovely comments girls 
Highlandgirl - I did one cycle in Aberdeen and four at GCRM  Small world hey 😉


----------



## unicornlover

Hi 
Just to let you know my cycle failed,there was only 1 egg at EC and it didnt get past fertilization,so gutted and upset and dont know where i go from here.
x


----------



## LuckyE

Unicorn lover. At our age it really is a numbers game. I was told 1/10 eggs are normal - this was by the doctor at Create In St Pauls. 

If you decide to go again, can you decide whether to go for EC according to the number of follicles or are you doing natural IVF? Sorry if you've told us before what your protocol was.


----------



## Syd72

So very sorry unicornlover.


----------



## Altai

So sorry unicorn


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi all, 

Unicorn - sending bigs hugs. Please don't lose hope on another cycle you could have more eggs. Cycles can differ. 

Highlander - big hugs for you too. I've heard of ladies still conceiving with very low AMH and go on the having a miracle baby. 

As for me, tried tamoxifen last cycle, currently in 2ww but feel AF is on its way. Trying to stay positive though. Not sure if we'll be trying another IVF cycle in a hurry. I know time isn't on our side but kind of feeling we've got the same odd with using tamoxifen then with IVF. The last few cycles I've struggled emotionally, especially when we got a BFN. Just feel we need to put IVF on a hold and try something a little different. I know they are successes out there. 

Thank you for sharing your journeys, it massively helps to keep strong and continue on. 

Good luck to you all.

Take care X


----------



## unicornlover

Thanks everyone,

Trying to keep my chin up but get upset every time i think about it   i knew the odds were against it from the start but the hope was there,that it might happen.

I was advised to do a 3 cycle package with DE,i did 1 cycle with OE...dont know if i got the chance, whether i would try with OE again or consider DE have a follow up next week so will see what they say.

LuckyE-  i did a natural modified at create,they were great,if i got chance i would try again tomorrow,and i never thought i could do injections.

Best wishes xx


----------



## Twinkletoes42

Unicorn lover

I hope you are ok .. this ivf stuff is really tough . I'm doing my second cycle of ivf now got EC on Monday . I'm already looking at DE because of my age . I know it sounds pessimistic but I too don't know how many times I'm willing to try with OE because of both financial and emotional toil it takes!!

I'm looking at new generation clinic in Russia for DE . You get to choose donor and have pics of donor as a child. It's a big step and I'm not sure I'm mentally ready to do that but I've been looking 

Big Hug and look after yourself  
Kate x


----------



## unicornlover

Thanks Twinkletoes,

I am trying to stay positive, hope your EC goes well monday.
best wishes x


----------



## LuckyE

Hey unicorn - how many follicles did you have before egg collection? Was it only one in your  natural modified cycle? It's frustrating. I've been on the low AMH/High FSH cycle and people on there have had disaster such as yours on one round then next round they get further. 

How do you feel about saying goodbye to OE? From my experience, you're ready when you're ready.  If you're not, could you try a couple of natural cycles at Gennet? they're way cheaper than UK.  I think Create are a little expensive so didn't cycle there in the end but had appointments and a failed cycle. 

I just feel at our age you're gonna get some dud cycles. Once you're okay with that, like, what Twinkletoes says, you need to think about how many goes it COULD take to get that golden egg. Maybe you need 2 more natural cycles and if they're duds you might feel better about DE. 

And then you have to remember with DE it's roughly about 3 goes for success, which is another story! 

It's so hard but just be kind to yourself. Listen to your gut. It'll tell you if you're ready or not.


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hope your EC has gone well Twinkletoes. Sending you positive energy for a good result x


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## unicornlover

Hi,

LuckyE= thanks for your thoughts,im not sure how many follicles   i think 5 one side and 3 the other,they were expecting 3/4 eggs i think.
Got a follow up tomorrow so will see what they think happened,as all scans/ bloods had been positive,not sure what my next step is going to be now as cant realistically afford to have more treatment (just bought a house) but really dont want to give up.i cant really travel abroad for a few reasons so if i tried again would stick with create,looking into my diet,holistic types of therapy as well.As for DE stil not sure if that is for me x

Hope your ok Twinkletoes x

Best wishes everyone


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi Unicorn, 

My last cycle was with Create and I had a similar experience about my follicles. On day 8 I had 12 follicles and they were expecting 6/7 good size eggs. I then had several days of scans and bloods or just bloods. By the time of my trigger shot it was 4 follicles. At EC 3 eggs were collected, one follicle was empty. It may have been the meds but after my EC I was gutted with the results, especially after I was progressing so well and then it went to pot. 

I'm sure they must be some people who have succeed with Create and would love to hear their positive stories but I struggled to find any. 

It's difficult financially and emotionally to go through another cycle and personally I need to try something different to keep me sane but if you can face another cycle it may be worth considering a clinic such as Serum or I'm sure one of the good Lonson clinics who seem to have had successes. 

Wishing you all the best with the next steps in your journey. Hope your follow up appointment goes well X


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## LuckyE

Unicorn lover - 8 follies! That's a massive crop to me! It seems really odd to have 8 follies and have nothing to show. I would be wanting answers TBH. 

I had a similar experience with my first clinic ( I was 41) and was told it was my egg quality because of my age. I left them and went on and got blasts with another clinic (yet to transfer 8 ) 

If you really can't go abroad... how about city fertility? They do natural cycles / natural modified- when I last looked into them  they were cheaper than create. Theyre affiliated to Gennett. I had consultations with them and scans. And was looking into an endometrium receptivity test with them. 

Sometimes it's good to get other opinions as to what went wrong instead of relying on the clinic where it went wrong. But if your gut is telling you to stay then stay


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## StrawberrySundae

Hi ladies hope you're all doing ok. 

Unicorn I hope you're ok and thinking about next plans?

Twinkle I've looked there too, like the idea of photos. Sounds like we're in a similar situation, wondering about DE. I still have another OE cycle to go yet that we paid for. Good luck with your embies 🍀

I've not been here for a while. No news to report other than still no AF   and have a load of mouth sores etc - must be a bit run down! Have ordered some L-Lysine that is supposed to help. I can't plan my next cycle until I have a period but been so busy that it's possibly just as well! Will see my consultant next eeek to find out what's going on, if he can tell me  

Best wishes all xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi all - I haven't been on this thread for weeks now (13th Feb, just checked) and it's so lovely and busy that it's really difficult to catch up properly/do justice to everyone's news in one go, but here goes:

*TTCNK *- marvellous news on being 17weeks pregnant (as of 16 March) with healthy boy! Thanks so much for posting your update.

*Stelpo *- yours is a wonderful story too, thank you for posting

*Eloise242 *- I'm so sorry that your 3 cycles of mild stimulated at Create were unsuccessful. What are you planning to do next (sorry if I've missed this)?

*ESJ *- I'm really sorry that your FET at Create resulted in a CP. That must be especially gutting given you had top quality embryos. What did you decide about whether or not to have a scratch next time? I think I might have been inclined to give it a go, just on a 'why not' sort of basis, but then again, not if it would mess up any plans you've already timetabled. When is your next FET? I'm wishing you luck, of course. I was also interested to see you were considering taking DHEA, I think. Have you started that yet?

*Syd* - Thank you so much for asking after me, that was kind. I notice you're considering an unmedicated IUI at the Lister in April. How are those plans going? I shall be crossing my fingers and wishing you all the best. As you say, you've had a couple of natural BFP's recently, so it must be time for a sticky one! I was also really interested to note you've started taking DHEA. May I ask what brand of DHEA you've got and is it 'micronised'/'micronized'?

*Unicornlover* - I was really sorry to read you've had an unsuccessful natural modified cycle at Create. It's just gutting. Which Create clinic are you with? I really hope that your follow up appointment is positive and gives you some possible explanations/good options going forwards. Please do update here if you feel that you can.

*Sunflowerseeds *- hadn't realised you'd cycled - unsuccessfully - with Create Birmingham. I'm sorry to hear that. I would grimly echo your comment that "_I'm sure there must be some people who have succeed with Create and would love to hear their positive stories but I struggled to find any_"! I wish you all the best with your continuing treatment - is it Serum that you're with now?

*Dolphinx*- did you make any decisions about your next steps for treatment? I would totally give my right arm to have an AMH and AFC like yours!

Did you find Inofolic in the end? I've bought it myself in the past from here: http://inofolic.org.uk/ although as I don't fit the profile of those who typically might benefit, I haven't really bothered with it since. I don't know if you've heard of a clinic called Midland Fertility in Tamworth (near Birmingham) but they were at the vanguard of egg freezing, amongst other things. They've posted some detailed info on Inofolic here, which perhaps you may find useful/encouraging if you haven't seen it already: http://www.midlandfertility.com/treatments/inofolic-for-pcos-patients/

On DHEA, I think my understanding is as *Gemini40* posted earlier, that DHEA can possibly aggravate PCOS, but is unlikely to have caused it. What did you decide - are you carrying on taking the DHEA?

*Gemini40 *- hope your pregnancy is progressing well now?

Waves to *Knockers *and *Highlandgirl *- hope you're both doing OK and moving stoically onwards towards that BFP!

Apologies to anyone I've not name checked, but best of luck to everyone of course. My little bits of news/queries to follow, FWIW ...

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## Beside_the_seaside

... OK, here's my 'Part 2 - me, me, me' bit. Apologies for my radio silence generally, but as I had no good news to report and as most days I've been feeling terribly down and tearful (I guess technically depressed, probably), I didn't want to infect the thread with my grim mood!

I last posted that I'd been turned away for IVF treatment in February due to a bad baseline scan; a haemorrhagic cyst and only one follicle. Anyway, I went back after my AF in March, only to find that I had exactly the same issue again, a (different) haemorrhagic cyst and again only one follicle, so I sat out the cycle yet again.

Anyway, AF has started today, so with real trepidation, I need to go back to Create in the next couple of days and see what they say. I've already paid for 2 more egg collections (well bar the ££££ add-ons for ICSI, sedation, etc) and I'm really hoping to complete those. There's no two ways about it, I'm feeling quite desperately anxious and sad now. For a hundred different reasons that I wouldn't expect anyone to have the patience to digest (and I could barely articulate anyhow) it's a genetic baby or no baby for us - so I'm basically praying for a miracle!

Along the lines of throwing the kitchen sink at this, I've been desperately - and fruitlessly - searching for some DHEA. Create were reasonably ambivalent/luke warm supportive of me taking it, although they don't prescribe it as such. But largely on the basis of the recommendation in Rebecca Fett's book and the Lister's general advice to 'poor responders' [eg https://ivf.org.uk/uploads/data/files/lister-fertility-clinic-low-ovarian-reserve.pdf see page 2, adjuvant treatments] I want to give it a go. I know it's too late to have an impact if I do cycle this time, but I'm thinking it might perhaps help the 2nd egg collection I'm still aiming for.

So please, can anyone give me any hints and tips as to how/where to source some reputable DHEA? I would've liked to take a 'micronized' or 'micronised' form of DHEA (Dehydroepiandrosterone, C19H28O2)

From a bit of research, the brands I would prefer are:
- Fertinatal [eg https://fertilitysupplementstore.com/fertinatal ], or
- Theralogix [eg https://www.theralogix.com/sp/dhea-25/ ], or
- Pure encapsulations [eg http://www.pureencapsulations.com/dhea-25-mg-2282.html ]

I can't find a retailer that would ship these brands to the UK? There does seem to be various other brands/types of DHEA that do ship to the UK, but I haven't found any brand (yet) that states it is a 'micronized' or 'micronised' form. I would greatly appreciate any help/advice as soon as possible!!! Thanks x

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## highlandgirl

Beside - dhea.com 
just bought it x

Sorry will post more later x

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## unicornlover

Hi Ladies,

Beside the seaside=Thanks for your thoughts,sorry to hear how down you are,can totally empathize,hope it goes better for you this time, i was at create birmingham,i dont live far from there so worked out well for scans etc.
Went for follow up,as i expected, said its disappointing but my age doesnt help..was advised 3 cycles so did take a chance on 1 but didnt know how i would get on with treatment and injections as i hadnt done it before.i had 3 follicles they were surprised i think, that they didnt get more eggs as they were good sizes,but where do i go from here?not sure  

Sunflower= sorry to hear your treatment didnt work out,does sound like mine it is gutting when you have so much hope and longing for it to work x

Strawberry sundae=Thanks cant think about much else at the moment,worried im getting obsessed  

Very best wishes to you all xxx


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

Besides - sorry to hear about your situation. Sending big hugs.

I got my DHEA from here - https://www.healthmonthly.co.uk/ I used it for a while. I seem to response well with my cycles, apart from the last one. I stopped taking it about 2 weeks before starting my cycle. I've not started it again, want to see how I get sling without it. I'm not cycling at all at the moment. We're trying naturally with meds. We had considered Serum for our first cycle but at the moment really feel we need to try something different, rather than have a total break. We feeling a bit beaten with the IVF cycles.

I heard DHEA can help with increasing egg quality/quantity. It may feel worth a try before your next cycle. Create advised not to take but other clinics hadn't minded and it didn't effect those results. Hope your next steps of your journey goes well.

Unicorn - good luck with your next cycle.

Take care everyone X

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## Syd72

Seaside, I'm sorry you've had such a rubbish few months. I really hope you have a much better cycle this time, you're more than due!

You can just buy dhea off the shelves here, I'm taking one I get from my local health food shop. The make is Natural, I don't think it is micronized (is that the word?). I'm only taking 50 at the moment, I was so nervous about taking it. If nothing this month (currently in the tww) I'll up it next month. I'll probably order it from iherb as they do different brands.  So far the only side effects seem to be a few spots.

Hi to everyone else, sorry for no other personals, rushing off to work.


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## Blondie71

Sending hugs to you beside the seaside ❤


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## Blondie71

For those looking for good closer clinic (not abroad) keep hearing about CRGW not sure about criteria though but worth a look.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks for the kind thoughts *Blondie*, *Syd*, *Sunflower*, *Unicorn *& *Highland*! And *Blondie *your twins are so gorgeous!

Thanks also for the suggestions on DHEA. I was keen on a 'micronized' formulation largely because of what Rebecca Fett says in her 'It Starts with the Egg' book - and this bit particularly (from pages 169-170):

_"... While DHEA is readily available in pharmacies as a vitamin supplement, the purity and potency of formulations sold as supplements are quite inconsistent. Analysis of several brands has found that the actual DHEA dose can range from 0-150% of the labeled dose. 
Researchers have also discovered that it is important to use DHEA formulated in tiny microparticles to allow for absorption. This is called a 'micronized' formulation. Fertility clinics typically recommend that patients obtain pharmaceutical grade, micronized DHEA rather than buying one of the brands sold alongside vitamin supplements. 
One option is the formulation used in several successful clinical trials, which is sold online as Fertinatal. According to the manufacturer, this formulation is potency guaranteed, micronized, pharmaceutical grade DHEA. Fertinatal is much more expensive than other DHEA supplements (at time of writing, a four-week supply costs $75) ... [or] look for another brand that says 'micronized' on the label..."_

So if anyone can advise on whether the DHEA they have is 'micronized' - or where I could get some, I'd be really, really grateful. Thanks!


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## Flyby

Beside, not sure if this link will work, but is this what you need?

https://www.dhea.com/UK.html

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## Syd72

I've now ordered some micronized on Iherb, no idea if they deliver to the uk?


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Flyby *- many thanks for the link. I think I've actually tried them once, albeit a good while ago, but the parcel never arrived. I guess losses in transit do happen, but it did put me off a bit. Perhaps it's worth another go if I can't find an alternative?

*Syd *- that's interesting, may I ask which brand you ordered? I've just tried to find the 'Iherb' store and the UK store that I've seen doesn't seem to have _any _DHEA!


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## esj

HI *Beside_the_Seaside* glad to hear from you and sorry you have had a tough time of late, thinking of you.
As for DHEA I still have the supply from last year bought in the US at a pharmacy which I believe is not micronised. 
I am holding off with it for now. Still waiting for next AF after CP, I think i haven't ovulated this month and I'm on day 25 so now worried Im going to have a messed up cycle. 
Didn't do the scratch in the end. Im not convinced it will be beneficial and didn't want to change plans to go ahead with FET as soon as I can.
Let us know if you find the DHEA you are after. Good luck xx


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## Syd72

Seaside, it's "Nature's Plus", seems to have good write ups on Amazon (US site) as well as iHerb.  Life Extension DHEA also seems to have good write-ups but it's not micronized as far as I can tell.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks Syd - that wasn't a brand I'd come across, so that's interesting.  The US Amazon.com doesn't seem to ship any brand of DHEA to UK which is really frustrating, but perhaps I'll find the brand you mention on a site that does ship.  Maybe.
When is your upcoming IUI?  I had an idea it was sometime in April but I've lost track a bit.  All the very best, obviously.
Me, I'm feeling in dire need of a lucky break and weirdly also like I (we all) deserve one for suffering Brexit misery on top of fertility challenges!


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## Syd72

Thanks, good memory   Yes, it's April, towards the end.  I think I'm due to ovulate about 3 days before I fly back to Hong Kong so just getting it in!  

Oxford told me they do the IUI the day after a positive opk which seems too late to me?  Clearly they know what they're doing but my temping (the twice I've done it) seems to indicate that I ovulate on the day of the surge so surely and IUI the next day would be too late?  Someone on my other forum says they've read studies/stories that women over 40 do tend to ovulate on the day of the surge, if not slightly before!  I'm actually going to the Lister for the IUI, hopefully the frozen sperm is being transferred next week!

Slightly removed from all the Brexit news here thank goodness but still feel very sad about it.

I find it all a bit hit and miss with vitamin brands to be honest.  I know someone that takes a particular brand of ubiquinol and says it does wonders for her hair and nails so she figures it must be doing her eggs some good too whereas I've tried various brands, including that one, and never noticed the slightest bit of difference!


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## LuckyE

Beside -  I use DHEA.com - micronised. 

When I used it, it was still being trialed. I read somewhere recently that there was no proof that this worked after trials. However, I noticed when I used it I had an increase in follicle count after 3/4 months... could be a co-incidence but I didn't think so.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks LuckyE! 
Syd - won't they give you some ultrasound follicle monitoring scans for (i.e. in advance of) your IUI?  They couldn't rely solely on an OPK result surely??


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## Syd72

They scan on day 10 apparently then go by sticks. That's Oxford, maybe Lister will be different.


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## Blondie71

Thank you beside the seaside they are just little treasures ❤ hoping you get a breakthrough soon x


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## esj

Hi All. I notice our thread has gone a bit quiet lately...I hope everyone is OK and getting on with whatever their plan is. 
The time has come for me to transfer our single frostie. The FET will be this Thursday. Feeling nervous but glad the timing has worked out like this as I'll have 10 days off over Easter.
Thinking of you all
xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *ESJ *- thanks for breaking the silence! I was hoping I hadn't killed off the thread entirely, what with my quest for DHEA and then all my bad news!

*ESJ*: Very excited for you that you're having another FET and wishing you the very best of luck! 
It's a top quality (grade 1) embryo isn't it? Do you also know what number of cells it is? I gathered from Create though, that they don't think the cell number matters very much, but I'm quite curious to know as I have differently numbered ones myself. I was also wondering whether they give you any medication to prepare for the FET? Anyway, I hope it's a sticky one!

My own update is pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum, unfortunately. I went for my scan at Create to assess whether this current cycle would be suitable for egg collection treatment, but it was again no good. No cysts this time, and 4 small follicles, which would've been OK, except they weren't developing and lining was too thin; there was 'no activity' basically. Insanely frustrating that this is now the 3rd cycle where I haven't even been able to start treatment and I'm now really scared the remaining 2 cycles I'd paid for will never happen.

However, one possible, fixable, reason (if not clutching at straws) might be my Thyroid. I had some tests which suggest I might be a bit over-medicated (with Levothyroxine) at the moment, as my TSH is a bit low and Free T4 is on the high side. Who knows why it's fluctuated (my weight is stable, so it's not that, but it could be fluctuating antibodies, or else the fact that my dose was last set at a time when I'd been taking DHEA - whereas I'm not at the moment - and for some reason DHEA seems to increase my Thyroxine requirement). Anyway, when I got similar blood results, albeit slightly worse, a couple of years ago, my menstrual cycle stopped entirely, in fact after 2 months of cysts actually. Obviously my periods came back again as I've been pregnant since then. So I'm really hoping that tweaking my Thyroxine dose might help. Sorry, I know this is mega boring for everyone without Thyroid issues, but just mentioning in case, for anyone else hypothyroid, this type of thing could be worth bearing in mind.


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## Syd72

I do have thyroid issues so it's interesting  Sorry it's another crisply cycle for you though. Does sound like it could be "fixable", fingers crossed! Did you track down any dhea?

ESJ, very best of luck.

I'm currently sat at the Lister, just had my baseline scan as it's day 3. Lining nice and thin, she did a very quick AFC just because I was curious and I'm at around 10 which I'm happy with. Just waiting to see the nurse.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Gosh Syd you're at the Lister already - that's come around quickly! Sounds like your IUI cycle is getting off to a lovely start - best of luck!

Yes I ordered some DHEA, thanks to everyone for all the advice on here. Just waiting for it to arrive now! drums fingers impatiently ...


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## esj

So glad to hear from you *Beside_the _seaside* and *Syd_72* 
*BST* Sorry you might be sitting out this cycle, I know how frustrating that is as I had to cancel one last year due to a cyst too. Even when we were about to start treatment ended up waiting way longer than planned as I didnt ovulate one month so in effect skipped a period. Good that you had the thyroid tests though so at least you can do all you can to be at optimum health when you do the next cycle. You are so knowledgeable its great to have your learned advice on here! My embryo is grade one but just 6 cells. My main worry at the moment is it not surviving the thaw. Knowing I don't have anything as back up makes it more intense. Lets see what happens... Create just have me on cyclogest and clexane from now until OTD and will have some prednisolone for a week after transfer I think. 
*Syd72* wishing you all the very best too. Good luck!
xxx


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## Syd72

I've just re-read my message, I have no idea what a crisply cycle is supposed to be, sorry *Seaside*! I must have meant rubbish cycle...

Thanks *ESJ*.

*Seaside *- hope it arrives soon!

I have to say I'm really struggling at the moment and I don't really know why - does anyone else go through phases like that when they feel they just can't cope with the whole thing? I feel like I'm close to tears all the time and more obsessive about ttc than usual. My first due date is coming up, 22 April, but given I miscarried as early as 8 weeks I can't imagine it's that. Not sure if it's just that I now really feel like I'll never be a mum and I don't really know how to cope with that. Also my oh's ex is now saying she wants to leave the country with their child and move to a different continent, they're having to go to court next week but I suspect she will win so the stress at home is huge.

Sorry for whingeing, my OH tries to be supportive but I can't talk to him about this with everything else going on and to be honest, he doesn't understand anyway.

Hope everyone else is having a good morning x


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd*- just sending you a big ((hug)). I'm sorry that you're feeling low. Due dates are very hard indeed, don't underestimate it. I can TOTALLY relate to feeling close to tears all the time; I've been feeling so desperate that I wonder what my face is doing in public, or if I've been caught out counting people's children ...

Re your comment "_Not sure if it's just that I now really feel like I'll never be a mum and I don't really know how to cope with that ..._" Please try to focus on the fact that you are doing your absolute best NOT to let that happen! When will your actual IUI be? You could even be pregnant by your previous due date, let's hope so. And if not, try again. I can hardly imagine how stressful home life must be with the custody/residency battle - it must be awful - but it surely wouldn't make it any easier for your ex (or you) if you _didn't _haven't another child, so please power on with your efforts!

*ESJ *- fingers still firmly crossed for your transfer

Waves and  to everyone else x


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## esj

*Syd72* I feel for you and totally empathise. I have the same feelings often and its totally overwhelming/heartbreaking. I wish I could say I have found ways to cope but I haven't apart from continuing to have treatment plans to keep going. I had some counselling last year which helped a bit but more in the sense of trying more treatment. The donor egg option is always lurking but my partner is not up for it at all at this point and I still have reservations although if it comes to the choice of it being that or nothing I might go for it and find a way to persuade him. The clock keeps ticking which adds to the urgency. I can safely say the past few years have been the toughest emotionally I have ever experienced.
Sending love and strength to you. 
xxxx


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## Syd72

Thank you both.

Seaside, my IUI is likely to be 21 or 22 April, I'm trying to take that as a good sign 

ESJ, same here, I'm very open to donor eggs but my OH says no way and I know he won't be moved on that.  I'm going to struggle just to get him to agree to more treatment in the summer.


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## StrawberrySundae

Hi ladies   I'm glad this thread is going again too.

ESJ good luck with your transfer  

Beside sorry you had a frustrating scan. My TSH results came right down this year too (0.3 last month) and I've only just had a period this weekend since my mc in Jan - I wondered if melatonin could be responsible, but maybe thyroid is another option? 

Syd yes I go thru various phases & feelings as well. Sometimes I think DE would be fine, other times I find the thought very upsetting & makes me feel like a failure  

I had a really painful period on sat, not sure why. After previous mcs they came back fine. But I was glad it eventually arrived, so I can think about my next EC hopefully after the next one.
Have a happy Easter all xx


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Sorry for the lack of posts from me been in a bit of a whirlwind re work and life!
I totally understand the whole overwhelming feeling you describe and I had become so obsessed with TTC that the rest of my life seemed to go on complete hold and I cant have that as we have a very busy business and I definitely dropped the ball and that created a lot of issues but I have manged to sort them out I hope!
I also found out that my DH had procured Viagra and we had a huge chat / heated discussion re this as he felt so under pressure to perform on demand it was ruining our fragile relationship - we have already had a period of separation and could / might still end up back there.
Anyway we have decided to stop trying naturally as it is too stressful and at 46 ( 47 in sept ) and DH being 52 I know the chances are getting less and less. I needed a break from the whole thing which I have taken and even in the last 3 weeks since this happened I look and feel so much better. 
I have joined Slimming World as my weight is my weakness I have always had food issues so I am focusing on trying to lose some weight, excersize more and I have decided if we can go through it again I will try IVF in a few months once I have my head and body in better shape  will need to convince DH but I'm sure if I can get my head to that place he will as well.
I'm sorry for the lack of posts just went into myself and got a bit lost but I'm back! xx
I did order DHEA and it came the other day so will have it when ready! Took around 2 weeks to come.
Bought it from McPherson Labs http://www.dhea-uk.com it is Ultra Micronized and is sent from their USA lab costs around £40 for 180 x 25mg which would last a month at the recommended dosage of 75mg as per Rebecca Fetts book.
Beside - sorry for not coming back to you but as I have said just lost the plot a bit  
ESJ - I know the feeling of desperation but I am really rooting for your transfer!  
Syd - Good Luck with your IUI well timed  
Strawberry - Keep us posted on your next plan  
I also wouldnt consider DE as we discussed all options before we started TTC and we both decided OE / OS biological child only which makes all of this even harder... heres to easter lets eat chocolate! xx
Hello to everyone else - come back out of the woodwork ladies and lets be hearing your updates the clocks have changed and there is 14 hours of daylight now so come on out and chat! lol XX

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## Beside_the_seaside

*Strawberry* - I'm so sorry about your miscarriage. (Sorry also if you've mentioned it previously and I've forgotten/missed your post; I find being so miserable makes me chronically inefficient!) Glad you've now had AF, but as for the reason it was delayed, perhaps it's 'just' the miscarriage that meant it took a while for your cycle to get back to normal? Now you've had a period (and presumably you'd tested negative for pregnancy since the MC) 'at least' you know there's no retained placental tissue, if that was ever a worry.

I seemed to remember Rebecca Fett saying something about melatonin, did you see it? I checked and she says "_it's probably not a good idea to take a melatonin supplement if you are trying to conceive naturally because it appears that melatonin may have a direct role in regulating the production of hormones that control the ovulation cycle. A melatonin supplement may therefore disrupt the natural hormone balance and interfere with ovulation. This is not such a concern in the context of IVF because large doses of hormones are given to artificially regulate the cycle and ovulation does not need to be orchestrated by natural hormone levels ..._" So I guess if you had an anovulatory cycle, it could make it a really long one? Still more likely to be post-miscarriage disruption though, surely?

On the thyroid issue, with the caveat that everyone could be different, I'd hazard a guess that although your TSH of 0.3 is technically (I think) just within reference range, you might be a bit over-medicated? Can you speak to your doctor about this?

My own experience is that in 2015, my periods stopped completely when my TSH went down to 0.4 (mid-cycle scan showed endometrium was really thin and patchy and although 9-10 small follicles, none had developed at all). Periods came back regular again once my dose was adjusted (and I subsequently got pg via IVF, although it sadly ended in a second trimester loss). Endocrinologist wanted to maintain TSH ideally between 1.5 - 2.5, or possibly 1.0 - 2.2. Problem is, I was then discharged back to GP again for ongoing monitoring, but GP has zero interest in doing it properly (or at all, really). I don't want to afford private endo consultations whilst I'm paying shed loads for IVF, but currently suspect that I might be a bit over-active again. I had new blood tests yesterday, so I'll have to see what they show.

Good to hear you're moving forward with your plans. When and where is your next egg collection likely to be?

*Highlandgirl* - good to hear from you. 
I was almost glad that my DP's antisperm antibodies get us off the hook for trying naturally (no point) as you're right, it's soul-destroyingly stressful. I'm sorry if you're having difficulties in your 'fragile relationship' - lets just say I've been there (or somewhere similar) so can relate, I think. I hope things are smoothing over.
I'm not quite sure I understand the issue with Viagra though; if it was helping, is it a problem using it? Or is the problem the 'performance stress' that drove DH to get it in the first place? Sorry, for being thick. 
Perhaps you would consider trying an IUI like *Syd *is doing? Perhaps it's a way of getting an extra (and reasonably cost-effective) go in before trying IVF again?
Please don't over-stress about your weight. They say low carb/high protein is best for egg quality, don't they, but beyond that, try not to worry to much. We all have enough, more important things to stress about, I reckon.

*Syd* - how is your cycle going? Are you going back to Lister for scans between now and IUI on 21/22?


----------



## Syd72

Highlandgirl, I also need to lose some weight. I've been a bit overweight for years but piled it on over the past couple of years.  I managed to get back into regular exercising in the last month in Hong Kong although that's gone out of the window since I got back to the UK last week.  My diet is horrendous though.  Good luck with slimming world, I know it can work really well.

Thanks Strawberry.  Weirdly the one thing I don't feel in all of this is a failure, angry and frustrated and sad and annoyed and often devastated but for the most part I can't control what my reproductive system is doing.  I can just try and take the right vitamins and stay healthy (ish, see above paragraph).  I hope your cycle is now back to normal.

Seaside, next scan is Tuesday which is day 11 for me.  They would prefer to have done day 10 but it's really hard for me to get to London on Easter Monday and the absolute earliest I've ever ovulated, as far as I'm aware, is day 13, normally 14 or 15.

Even though it's an unmedicated cycle they want me to trigger which at first I was opposed to but thinking about it I guess it will make timing easier and will make sure I definitely ovulate.  The one thing I don't understand is, they will trigger me when my lead follicle and lining is looking right but I'm pretty sure I normally ovulate on day 14 which is the same day I get my surge.  As I'm not taking any other drugs what's to stop me ovulating naturally on day 14 if, for example, they only trigger me on day 13 for iui on day 15?  Day 15 is when they've suggested it may be, the day after the opk surge which again, doesn't make much sense to me as surely the egg will have gone by then?  I did explain that I think I normally ovulate on the same day as the positive opk but she clearly didn't believe me.  And maybe she's right, it's just that I've confirmed that with temping a couple of times.  Plus there is some research out there that suggests the older you are the closer to your surge you actually ovulate to the point that some women might even have ovulated by the time they see a positive opk.  I have no idea how good that research is but it fits in with what I and a couple of other over 40s ladies on another forum have experienced.

Anyway, rambling now, I'll ask again when I got back on Tuesday.

Hope everyone else is ok.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - Gosh it's complicated isn't it, but interesting too, I'd be very interested to know the answer!

I can well imagine public transport will be hopeless on Bank Holiday and it sounds like Day 11 will be fine for your next scan. Aren't egg collections normally 35-36 hours after a trigger shot? So I'm thinking even if they trigger you at midnight on Day 11, at least if it was IVF, they'd do egg collection at noon on Day 13. And given they'd time an egg collection before you'd ovulate naturally ... so would they not time your IUI about the same Presumably they'll do blood tests (E2 and LH) at your next scan to help work out your trigger day?

Another thing is even though its a non-medicated cycle, maybe they'll still give you something like Indomethacin after your trigger shot? I don't know if you've had it before, but it's a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory (which I think is also prescribed for things like osteoarthritis) and because ovulation is an inflammatory reaction, it helps (mildly) to counteract early ovulation. Create prescribed me one tablet every 8 hours between Ovitrelle and egg collection. I vaguely remember a CARE protocol for a fully natural IVF cycle that I looked into years ago (but never actually did) and I'm pretty sure that also used Indomethacin.

You're making me wonder why I didn't try IUI years ago, it sounds a lot less bother! Apologies for the very rude question, but do you mind me asking how much it costs?


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - best wishes for your FET tomorrow!


----------



## Syd72

ESJ, I'm sorry I missed that, good luck for tomorrow!

Seaside, thanks for that, good information as always.  If they decide to trigger me on day 11 then I'm not worried, it's if they don't trigger me til day 13 I'm concerned but I'm sure all will become clear on Tuesday.  I don't mind you asking about the cost at all but I actually don't know, haven't even asked as it's going on insurance.  I do have to pay out initially though, then claim it back, so as soon as I pay I'll let you know how much it was.


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## Flyby

Syd, I always ovulate on the same day as my surge, usually I get surge early afternoon and I ovulate in the evening, I always feel ovulation and I have had scans and blood tests in the past to confirm that this is the pattern it takes. It's very disconcerting when you don't feel believed because of what they see as "usual/normal", you know your body!! Hopefully they will scan and check bloods to be as sure as they can. F x


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## StrawberrySundae

ESJ good luck today! 🍀 

Beside thank you for your helpful ideas   Yes hopefully there's still no retained products now, altho I did wonder why I had such bad period pain and yet no big clots or anything. Thanks very much for the melatonin info, yes that or the thyroid medication could have delayed the period. Got my next blood test today, if it's still v low my go said I should reduce my dose (I'm only on 25mcg, so would reduce to alternate days). 

HighlandGirl I need to lose some weight too. Ivf & MC's don't help! I went to slimming world once but ran off, not my cup of tea  

Syd sorry I can't help much re your surge etc, it does seem complicated to me. Hope you get to the bottom of it and your cycle goes well.

If I get my next AF in 4 weeks I'll be going to Serum again mid May hopefully, for EC (gentle clomid protocol, last time they got 2 apparently good eggs, but it was still a MC in the end). At least it's a nice time of year for us all (well in the uk anyway!) x


----------



## Sunflowerseeds

Hi

ESJ hope all went well today. I'll have my fingers crossed for you.

Syd - I also ovulate the day of my surge. I'm sure sometimes when the clear blue shows peak fertility I've ovulated the evening/night before. Started trying to dtd every other day once I see cm. 

Hope you are all well. 

Sending positive energy to you all X


----------



## Syd72

I would love to dtd every other day all month long!!  My OH, sadly, not so much


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hahaha, I'm the same but unfortunately my OH isn't always willing so it limited to about 10 days. 

I remind him it could be cheaper than IVF. Trying natural with support from tamoxifen last month then letrozole this month. I got my dates mixed up with taxmoxifen and not sure if ovulated, did letrozole this month and ovulated. Thought it would be early, normally it day 14/15 but it was only a few days early. We dtd the day before but my OH was away on the day so not sure we've been lucky.

Started using the opk strips and testing during the day so I can pinpoint ovulation as I know it's within hours of spotting the surge. Mainly monitor it do know when to stop dtd.

Hope your IUI goes well X


----------



## esj

Hi All
Thank you so much for your kind words. It means a lot to have such amazing support here. Sending back lots of love and positive vibes.
FET went smoothly today, now for the wait. At least I know what to expect this time.
Happy Easter xxx


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## miamiamo

Hi, just wanted to wish Happy Easter x


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## StrawberrySundae

Thanks you too Miamiamo  

ESJ glad your FET went smoothly. I hope you're looking after yourself and embies snuggling in nicely   

Syd I wish I (and my DH!) had your energy   

Sunflower I've used a monitor at times in the past, it definitely helped me get pg the first time. Monitors currently stuffed away behind bed somewhere I think!   Sending you good luck vibes 🍀 

AFM I'm hoping my natural cycle is getting back to normal so I can plan my next EC in a few weeks   Meanwhile eating too much chocolate today, but it's only Easter once a year   Hope everyone has some nice time off sometime over Easter xx


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## unicornlover

Hi everyone..happy easter  

Good to see some updates from you all.. been busy too and work very busy,not much to report other than i have started a few supplements and af arrived which i was glad about about as first one after the treatment,so feel my cycle can get back on track again now.
Been thinking about further treatment, but after my follow up consultation which felt a waste of time,i am not sure where i would go now and feel the same thing could easily happen again,im trying reflexology again and just going to see how i feel about things but will keep trying naturally in the meantime as you never know.My partner is a bit more supportive now and making the effort to dtd   we both work long hours and can finish quite late so not always easy to make it happen.

Best wishes and good luck to you all,sorry havent got time for personals but thinking of you all xxx


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## highlandgirl

Hi Ladies,

Just came across this fantastic resource www.ivfmatters.co.uk they are an online IVF clinic which I think could really help some if us as they will provide consultations / tests / scans across the uk and its all very reasonable price wise? I found this via a podcast called the fertility podcast. 
I haven't used it myself but I think it looks a great option for us? 

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Syd72

Morning all, Happy Easter. Apologies for lack of personals, I can't read back on my phone. 

Having said that, ESJ, glad all went smoothly.

Hope everyone else is ok.


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## Syd72

Highlandgirl, looks good!


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## Beside_the_seaside

Hi *Highlandgirl *- I'm glad it looks like you're still thinking about TTC and possible treatment? Wishing you all the best.

*Syd* - FX that everything is still beautifully on course at your CD11 scan tomorrow.

*ESJ* - totally rooting for your 2ww 

No 'news' here, I'm still feeling miserable. I suspect nothing will start to cheer me up apart from AF followed by a more promising baseline scan. Although this next came pretty close ...

I've really no idea of the etiquette around referring to another poster's earlier posts. I can only apologise if I've unwittingly breached a forum guideline. But I've found this lady's posts - *Kazzie *- to be truly inspirational. Her little boy must now have just turned 8 years old, how wonderful. *Kazzie*, I salute you! And wherever you are, I hope you and your family are marvelously well:

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=59854.msg2595428#msg2595428


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## Blondie71

Wow she got 13 eggs too!!!! The short protocol is great (providing there is something to stim with obviously) as gives you more eggs and a chance of finding one or hopefully more that could make it.


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## Agaamh

hello Ladies,

a lot of posts, i have a lot to catch up.
regarding clearblue ovulation test digital version, I cannot rely on it. As after checking hormones levels in blood and ultrasound scans, all tests done on several days, the tests showed that I clearly ovulated. But cb did not show ovulation at all  ... so it happens as well


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## Sunflowerseeds

Hi everyone,

Hope you're all well.

Thanks Strawberry for your well wishes.

Syd - I use CB and the opk strips. Sometimes the CB shows a solid smile and I ovaluate a few hours later. I recently found the Boots opk strips pick up LH build up and the surge. I test several times during the day. It may be best to use both so you don't miss ovaluation. Good luck.

Positive vibes to you all X


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## LuckyE

Agaamh - I agree with you about the digital sticks. It's day 14  - yesterday was flashing face and the day before flashing face. Today the sticks don't seem to work and I'm just getting the test stick sign and they don't flash. Iv'e tried 3 sticks.  And last month it said I ovulated but about 5 days later I got loads of EWCM and AF was well late.. it was the weirdest thing... I just don't trust it anymore.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - Thanks for the IUI cost info, still not cheap, but obviously a much more reasonable price than IVF!

Really good to hear your cycle is progressing so well.

About your question on the Clearblue OPK with flashing/solid smiley faces (the 'dual hormone' ones). I've used these in the past (before we belatedly gave up TTC naturally due to antibodies etc) and I think they're great.

They don't need 'several days' of data. If you had an LH surge on the first day of testing, it shows a solid smiley. But they won't show the rise in estrogen (the precursor to the LH surge) as a flashing smiley until the 2nd day of testing. The test stick stores the 1st result as a baseline and then compares the 2nd/subsequent results, until it registers a rise.

Does this FAQ help?
"_6. Does the test start adapting to my unique cycle right from the first day of testing?
Yes, the test reads your individual hormone levels and on the first day you test in each cycle the level of estrogen will be identified. The test cannot display High Fertility on the first day you test as it needs to determine your baseline level. Subsequent tests use this baseline level and when a significant rise in estrogen is detected it will display High Fertility. The test will then display High Fertility until it detects the LH surge and Peak Fertility is displayed. If an LH surge is detected on the first day of testing, Peak Fertility will be displayed._" 
http://uk.clearblue.com/clearblue-ovulation-test-range/clearblue-digital-ovulation-test-with-dual-hormone-indicator

And some very detailed info here: http://uk.clearblue.com/sites/default/files/HCP_Publications/Brochures/hcp_aot_professional_brochure.pdf

I'd also echo what *Sunflowerseeds *already said on OPKs. Given the importance/effort/expense of this IUI cycle, I'd tentatively suggest you test at least twice a day, morning and late-ish afternoon.

When I was using OPKs for TTC naturally, I tended to pick up my LH surge late afternoon. Then one of the consultants at Create asked me to do OPK/LH tests in late afternoon in one of my cycles. Not sure of their rationale behind this. Did the Lister advise on any particular timing? I'd be interested to know, if so.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/size]


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## LuckyE

sydd - from what I understand you need to start a few days before your fertile days so that the stick can register your base level and from there it will be able to detect a change in oestrogen. I think it needs 2 days minimum.


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## Syd72

Thanks so much everyone, I really appreciate the advice.

Lister want me to test in the morning which is why I was worried about my usual cheapies as you're supposed to use them in the afternoon. I'll continue testing with both, have another scan tomorrow afternoon.


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## Syd72

So, had a flashy face this morning and negative on the cheapie this afternoon. Just had my scan, lining is 11mm and have the triple or whatever the term is. One follicle at 19mm. Just about to trigger and procedure at 4pm tomorrow.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd *- very exciting, sounds perfect! (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't, but don't do what I did; the cycle they asked me to use OPKs, I did an OPK test the day after my trigger. Totally panicked as _of course_ I got a blazing positive - it's HCG in the trigger, isn't it!) Good luck for your procedure.


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## highlandgirl

Fingers Crossed Syd xx


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## Sunflowerseeds

Fantastic Syd. Positive vibes for a good result X


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.

Seaside, fortunately I asked a question about tomorrow's opk and she told me not to do it for that very reason


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## Beside_the_seaside

I'm just waiting for next AF, _yet again_, so I can try to start an EC cycle _this time_ (please ). It leaves more Google-time than is probably healthy. I stumbled across these stats; they're taken from a 10 year period at just one hospital, prior to the invention of IVF (or any other fertility treatment really). Of course, stats can't say whether any particular person could replicate the success, but as a small counterbalance to the general wall of negativity, I still find what's at least technically possible to be quite interesting:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/45103
'*Fertility in women after age forty-five*', Kushner DH, Int J Fertil. 1979

"... Data relating to pregnancies at age 45 years and older at Columbia Hospital for Women in Washington, D.C. during the 1967-1977 period are presented. ... There were 82 pregnancies that occurred in women 45 years of age and older. The oldest in this group delivered 6 days after her 49th birthday and 1 week beyond her expected date of confinement. This was her 10th pregnancy."

"... There were 24,779 abortions [all ages of patient] in the study period. The total number of induced abortions during the period was 17,869 with 31 patients 45-51 years of age. There were 4 patients 48-49 years of age and 1 patient 51 years."


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## Syd72

Always good to see some positivity 

I think I may have mentioned this before but on another forum I'm on there's a lovely lady that fell pregnant at 47, from what I can gather it happened almost as soon as she and her new husband started trying (within first month or two), she recently had a perfectly healthy boy at the age of 48.


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## esj

Yes great to hear some positive stories ladies!
Just wanted to wish you luck *Syd72*. Thinking of you and sending love + hugs x


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## Blondie71

Oohh best of luck syd  

Just chiming in on the opk topic for my fet with my boys I started them very early on day 10 (I have 30 day cycles) and did them every 12 hours religiously until midday on day 16 when it was very obviously a solid smiley face and I ovulated 12-24 hours after that solid face so useful for those timing natural cycles maybe too 👍


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies.


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## Syd72

All done, preocedure was fine, she tipped me up slightly and left me there for 20 mins after. Sperm was defrosted (obviously) and post wash count was 4 million with 98% motility which they were happy with and so was I til I started googling, 4 million washed seems quite low! Going to stop googling now...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - um, isn't that still 3,999,999 sperm to spare? (Or 3,919,999 to spare, if you have to take account of 'only' having 98% motile. 98%! That's massive, surely?) It sounds like it's gone really well so far, be confident!


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## Blondie71

😂😂 same thoughts from me lol, 2ww wait madness begins.... Go!


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## Syd72

Thanks ladies, I know you're right. I'm generally not a symptom spotter although I did go a bit crazy in the tww after my ivf. At least I know any "symptoms" will be the progesterone.

Seaside, final total cost was £950 plus £61something for the medication.


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## miamiamo

Syd72 - keep my fingers crossed. When I was in 2 ww, I was massively watching cartoons and romantic comedies. xx


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## esj

Well sorry to start the week with deperessing news but I had my OTD today and its a BFN. I was expecting it, had no signs of implantation like last time. Still upset of course but have no choice but to keep it together as I returned to work today. Will have a follow up appointment tomorrow.
I think my time will be done with Create. If we try IVF again I'm swaying more towards Serum in Athens.
I'd really like to look at ways to boost my chances naturally i.e letrozole or clomid. For the ladies who've tried this where is the best place to get hold of it. Do you think Create would prescribe it for me? I'm also really wary of self medicating.
Feeling sad but not totally defeated.

Please Note: Fertility Friends does not endorse any type of self medication/DIY drugs administering. We strongly advise you to seek advice from your GP/clinic on any aspects when self administering drugs of this nature and do not do so without professional medical supervision/approval


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## StrawberrySundae

esj I'm really sorry to hear that. It's always hard having news like that   I'm with Serum, about to start my 2nd clomid cycle - if you want any info just ask. They do a 2 cycle package that I signed up for. I guess we just have to accept it takes longer & more goes at this age. Big hug to you x

Syd good luck 🍀 I really hope it's your time. I heard of a lady that age too who had her last child unexpectedly. I love hearing those stories x

Hi everyone else, hope you're all doing well. Not much to report from me. Does anyone get a bit swollen up when they're ovulating? I wasn't sure if it was that or IBS recently!  

🍓


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ*- I'm really sorry to hear it was a BFN. I so wanted it to work for you, not least (if it doesn't sound too selfish) as I want to believe in the process at Create whilst I'm still slogging through it. I hope you can get some help/answers at your follow up appointment tomorrow.

You mention maybe trying naturally before perhaps doing another IVF. I understand that Letrozole (aka Femara) would be a good choice. I believe Clomid is not advisable if you're trying naturally (or using it for IVF but doing a transfer of embryos/blasts back within the same cycle) as it tends to makes the lining too thin in an older age group. Letrozole doesn't have the same thinning effects on the lining. Tamoxifen is another good (but perhaps less usual) alternative. I think Dr Datta/Dr Sarris at Create have written up a study into the use of Tamoxifen as the stimulant in IVF cycles.

It's surely got to be worth at least asking Create if they would prescribe Letrozole (or Tamoxifen) for you? Would you consider doing it as part of an IUI cycle? I notice they've got IUI (£800) or 'IUI Stim' (£850) on their price list, which is said to include "monitoring scans, clinical advice, sperm preparation, insemination procedure and early pregnancy scan". Might be a reasonably cost-effective option to give a quick go before trying IVF overseas? At least you could start quickly and get the result within the cycle, as it were.

I must say, I've heard great things about Serum though. I bottled it myself over the travel costs, logistics (with boisterous 3.5 year old in tow) and plummeting Euro exchange rate.

I think you've every right to feel sad right now, but heartening to read that you're "not totally defeated". Look forward to reading about your plans going forwards.


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## LuckyE

sydd - good luck! I'm on the 2ww but wth TTC naturally. Hope you're not going mad.

ESJ - So sorry  I am with Serum. I have been prescribed letroltrole by them recently as I asked for it. They said no to Clomid to TTC naturally. They did say there's no point though - *"As mentioned any kind of ovarian stimulation because of the age factor is not giving you any better chances, but if you insist you may have {they gave me the prescription}" * I didn't do that this last cycle but I'm going to give it a go in May as I'm hoping I ovulate 2 eggs - one can only dream.. - that's my last month of TTC naturally so am going to go out with a bang!

They reccomend I do natural IVF...

Guys for two month now of TTC naturally I develop a watery mouth after ovulation. I'm clearly not pregnant. I've never had it before on all my other cycles. I've googled... am thinking is progesterone? But why now and not all my other cycles? Do you think it has something to do with age or hormone imbalance?


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## Beside_the_seaside

*LuckyE* - that's interesting. What are you doing at Serum? I was trying to work out from your signature, have you got lots of blastocysts frozen with them, like 8 or something? If so that's absolutely amazing! Is it Serum that are now recommending "natural IVF"? Do you mean a natural fresh cycle or natural FET?

I've no idea on the 'watery mouth after ovulation' BTW. People say they have weird tastes in mouth with early pregnancy (I never did) so I guess it could be progesterone?


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## LuckyE

*beside_the_sea* Yes, I have 8 blasts but they are with Donor Sperm and want to try with my new partner before I use them. If we can't get pregnant naturally then we'll do 2 natural fresh cycles of IVF then I'll try with them as he has his own kids. Yeah, Serum will only do natural IVF with me - they're not suggesting Clomid this time either but I don't want to do it as I don't really want to try any more drugs - the letrozole is out of desperation and one off!


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## Blondie71

Sorry ESJ it's very tough to face an outcome that's not what you want and then have to put a mask on for the world   naturally I have a bias towards serum and hopefully they will come up with a great plan


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## Syd72

ESJ I'm really sorry to hear your news.  A lot of people seem to use Serum and I only ever hear rave reviews.  If I was looking at options outside the UK they would be top of my list.

StrawberrySundae thanks for the good wishes.  Haven't particularly noticed any swelling up around ovulation but I think that's because I get it on and off all month, gluten doesn't really agree with me.

LuckyE I get a watery mouth sometimes but haven't noticed it happening at any time of the month particularly so can't really help I'm afraid.  A few days post ovulation last month I suddenly thought I was going to be sick, it's a very hard feeling to describe but I didn't actually "feel" sick, as in stick to my stomach, I felt like I was going to be sick from my throat.  Almost like a tight, salty feeling.  Very weird and it passed after a few minutes.  Happened again a couple of days ago but passed more quickly that time.  All a bit strange and new for me but presumably not a sign of anything due to the timing.  Do you have any nausea with it or just a watery mouth?

No news from me, tww is ticking along, doesn't feel like it's dragging too much yet although I'm sure that will start soon.  Found out today that my partner will be going back to court in June to try and sort out custody etc.  This has been going on for years, things with his ex are still extremely nasty, so hopefully there will finally be some resolution but it means stress levels at home will be off the charts for the next couple of months (as opposed to just high which is the norm).  Worries me a bit as I know stress is thought to be quite a big factor in fertility, I keep trying to imagine a protective bubble around my uterus


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## LuckyE

Syd72 - watery mouth- it's off and on this month. Last month loads - but think due to stress. Yes, stress does affect stuff. I have high prolactin (top of the scale - a little over the chart) which stops implantation - and I'm worried that the watery mouth could be a symptom of that as prolactin levels rise further if stressed. Was so stressed last month. Less so this month but still watery mouth. So looking into that. 


I feel for you with your DH. My DH is lodging papers at court today for the same thing. It's been going on for 3 years. Joint custody fine and dandy till child was 10 when he eventually got round to filing for divorce (separate since kid was 1) - she kicked off, brainwashed the child.. He's the kindest man I know. I don't know why people do this. He's had court orders but she's flouted them! And they don't get enforced - every case is different and hers is particular but it's so horrible to see him in pain. He loves his daughter so much...


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## Syd72

Oh My God, if I didn't know better I would say we both live with same man!  Daughters are the same age, separation happened at the same age although the divorce went through a few years ago.  I hate it, I get so upset and so angry seeing what is being done to him but so helpless.  Very best of luck to you and your DH on this 

I may look at getting my prolactin levels tested, thank you for that.  Is it just a blood test?


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## LuckyE

Syd - prolactin - yeah mine's being watched at the moment. both Serum and my GP say it's not high enough to stop implantation and therefore not to take any drugs but it's always been top of the scale and apparently it rises if stressed. Best to get everything checked out. Yeah, it's just a blood test by your GP.


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## esj

Hi there. Thanks for the kind words ladies. Yesterday was a bad day. I think it all just hit me that it was the end of the road for our 3 cycle package and we had our follow up consultation. Of course Doctor was pushing us towards Donor eggs and brutally honest about success rates for own eggs now Im about to turn 45. Of course I know all this anyway but just felt pretty raw. Ended up arguing with OH who doesnt even want to consider DE even though Im not set on it myself.
I asked about trying letrozole in a natural cycle. He said this kind of stimulation is for people who arent forming follicles or producing any eggs but as I ovulate and have regular periods it would be more of a placebo. I dont particularly believe him since we have a couple of cases here of it improving chances but I dont know where to get hold of any anyway if they wont prescribe any. *BST* thanks for your suggestions as always. I think if we do have any more treatment I'll go straight to the 2 cycle package at Serum. Not sure I can put myself through much more of this though with such low return prospects.
sorry for the negativity


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - Grr, what a shame Create couldn't have been a bit more helpful. Re their response to you trying Letrozole, i.e. that it's "_for people who arent forming follicles or producing any eggs but as I ovulate and have regular periods it would be more of a placebo_". Hmm . Perhaps it's more that they wouldn't prescribe it without monitoring you, but (from their price list) they're just not set up to offer any cycle monitoring (like I've seen some clinics offer 'ovulation induction' pretty cheaply)? Which is sort of why I wondered whether IUI would be worth a go, as it's on Create's official menu as it were.
Yes, *TTCNK* has her natural pregnancy from Letrozole at 46 doesn't she? I trust she's still doing well.

Your BFN is still so recent and disappointment so raw that it's surely only to be expected to feel low. Hope you'll find your way fowards when you're ready. If you're thinking Serum, I'll just mention that I remember reading about a lady on another forum (she was about 39, I think) who had Serum's hidden infection tests, then went to Athens for an initial IVF assessment. She returned home with a massive prescription for antibiotics for the infections found, plus Femara (Letrozole), and instructions to TTC naturally once the antibiotic protocol was finished and before returning for IVF. (They apparently wouldn't have given Clomid in these circumstances because of the lining impacts.) She never needed the IVF as (last I read) she had a healthy ongoing pregnancy of about 30+ weeks, tested genetically normal. I was quietly thrilled for her as her previous obstetric history was pretty heartbreaking.
It does seem to come across with Serum that they're prepared to be flexible/individualise their approach, maybe moreso than some other clinics. Perhaps if you contact Serum, you could also build in one or two TTC 'naturally' with Letrozole cycles into the pre-IVF assessment/build up, just as that other lady did Wouldn't it be wonderful if you never needed the IVF either!

*Syd *- I'm trying to send positive visualisations for your uterine protective bubble. Hoping you'll cheer us up with symptom spotting and BFP!

Still no AF for me, bored now. I'd asked to be put on estrogen priming (I've been given Progynova 2mg daily, whereas when at the Lister I'd tried Estraderm 100mg patches) and maybe it's delaying my period a bit. It did before, although I'm not sure its really supposed to? It's worked out OK as it turns out, as sperm DP is overseas until 1 May.


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## Blondie71

Just happened to catch few minutes of one born every minute last night and there was a recently split up 45 year old lady who was told she'd highly unlikely ever conceive who did naturally and had her little boy, another inspiring story!


----------



## LuckyE

ESJ - I echo Beside the seaside - you can contact Serum and chat to them. They are very helpful and you don't have to cycle with them for their help. They're not like that. Consult with them and take it from there, I bet they'll prescribe you lezrotrole before you do IVF with them if you want a month to prepare and try it before you give it one last go. I am secretly hoping lezrotrole will give me more than one egg to ovulate... but then again, Serum's point is I don't have any of good quality...


Couldn't you just say to Create you want to try it anyway? won't they prescribe it then? That's what I did with Serum.  

Beside the sea - hope AF comes when you want it to x

Syd - thinking of you...

 everyone else. 

AFM - trying not to symptom spot but sooooo hard! Any twinge turns out to be gas!


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## esj

*Seaside* and *LuckyE* thanks for the advice. I did try to angle for a prescription from Create but Dr dismissed it so didnt think I could push it. 
Its looking more and more like we'll give it one more shot with serum.

*Blondie71* Great story- thats a show I usually cant bear to watch (too upsetting) but might have to take a look for the inspiration factor!

XXXX


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## LuckyE

Blondie71 - I love that story too.


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## Blondie71

Her name was Louise (I have a very close friend same name so stuck in my head lol) so you probably can find her on their show site ☺


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## TTCNK

Hi there - was just checking in with you all and saw the letrozole question.  ESJ, so sorry to hear your news.  Yes I used letrozole  - I had previously done the super ovulation programme with Dr S in Epsom.  I took one final dose but did not actually monitor via scans etc .    I ovulated regularly - usually got 2 each side - had no issues  from that POV.  I am doing well... 24 week next week and all going well.

Keep going all - Syd fingers crossed for the 2WW ; Beside the sea I continue to root for you xx


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## TTCNK

I think they Bleep is some form of Editing for the Dr I used in Epsom?  Or my mistyping of Dr S !


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## esj

HI *TTCNK* Thank you so much for the info. Yes I ovulate regularly too. The consultant I saw was dismissive about me using Letrozole but I want to try it as feel I've nothing to lose. Id love to look into the super ovulation programme. *Beside_the Seaside* already told me about ovulation induction which I'm guessing is the same kind of thing. Are you able to share the name of clinic in Epsom please? Thank you! xxx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*TTCNK* - thanks for your kind thoughts. Your pregnancy is such marvellous news - we need more on here!
Fabulous that you're already 24 weeks/more than halfway 

*Syd *- just thinking that you must be over a week into your 2ww. Hope you/your nerves are doing OK

I'm having an annoyingly long cycle (CD34) - and for the avoidance of doubt, not even a _theoretical _chance I could be pg. I'm wondering if it's due to low TSH, or the estrogen priming (still on Progynova 2mg daily) perhaps, but FX nothing sinister. I'll have a scan next week to check on things.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Oops, didn't mean to be such a thread killer!  Hope everyone's OK?


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## LuckyE

Besides - did you start DHEA? That can delay AF? Or has she arrived yet?  Also DHEA can delay ovulation so maybe you ovluated later?

Hope everyone else is okay. I'm just gearing up to start Letrozole as AF is due on Wednesday but expect it to be late due to DHEA like last month. Or maybe late ovulation.


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## Syd72

Morning all.  I caved and tested with a frer this morning, BFN.  I know I need to test again in a couple of days just in case but I'm not feeling hopeful.  Fairly sure I'm 11dpo today, slight chance I could only be 10 but that's unlikely.

Starting to think more and more about de, mentioned it to OH the other night, he didn't dismiss it completely but he's really not keen.  It's so hard to discuss it with him at the moment given all the other stress that's going on but I really feel I need to get a move on.  I saw on another thread that Serum closes for August (Serum is almost certainly where I would go) and it's so hard to keep getting back to Europe I want to get this sorted.  I'm really hoping they wouldn't need him to go to the clinic and I could just transfer his sperm from Lister otherwise it won't happen, he definitely wouldn't be able to get to Greece this year (other than possibly in August).  I understand the waiting list at the Lister is around 6-12 months so that's a no-go for us.

Sorry, for venting and lack of personals, hope everyone is ok and that AF starts soon Seaside!


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## LuckyE

syd -    that you'll get a BFP. Yes, you can transfer sperm to serum. Not sure the cost though but loads of ladies have.

AFM - AF came early. Gutted. Was crazily symptom spotting. I am so not going to do it this month. Such a waste of time!


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## Syd72

LuckyE, thanks so much, that's great to know.  I'm reading up about Serum like crazy at the moment although convincing my OH will be by far the biggest hurdle.

So sorry about AF.  I always say I don't symptom spot but actually I do, like a mad woman, I just don't write it down anywhere...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - FX. Try to hang in there, it's still early. Just wondered if you'd seen these on which DPO anyone could expect to show a positive HPT if pregnant?
- This site says average day past ovulation for the first positive pregnancy test is *13.6* DPO
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/Faqs/When-can-I-expect-a-positive-HPT-if-I-am-pregnant.html
- These "Pregnancy Test Results By Day Past Ovulation" only analyse data on pregnancy test results from actually pregnant women, so any negative results are false negatives. It says at *10 DPO 33%* will be false negative and at *11 DPO 21.6%* will be false negative
http://www.countdowntopregnancy.com/pregnancy-test/

Obviously, I hope you get your BFP this time, but if not, please remember an unmedicated IUI - bar the sperm wash (which I think can help with mild sperm issues, antibodies etc) - is basically only the equivalent of superbly well-timed intercourse. And you wouldn't give up after ONE month of TTC naturally!

If you're going for Serum, I bet you could get DP sperm shipped from London to Athens pretty soon if you needed to - Serum could surely advise you on how to do it? And/or get DP to go in whichever 2 weeks in August that Serum _isn't_ closed and supply a fresh sample for them to freeze/store?

What would you think about at least trying Serum's '2 cycle package' with own eggs? See how that goes before considering DE? FWIW, personally that's definitely what I'd do at your age, with your AMH. Do you still have any financial help left via your insurance?

*LuckyE* - sorry AF made an unwelcome appearance - but let's think positive for your Letrozole if you're starting that this cycle. Being nosey - what dose/which days do you take it? Hoping you can repeat *TTCNK*'s success with it!

To answer your question, yes I started DHEA a couple of weeks ago. I've taken it before and without checking back, I don't think it's had much effect on the overall length of my cycles, although, maybe it did in the early months of it. You're probably right about it's tendency to delay ovulation a bit. I also slightly suspect it's contributed to a couple of ovarian hemorrhagic cysts in the past. But I don't think I can blame DHEA this time; *$*$ knows what's happening. Still no AF for me, now a mammoth CD36. Trying to remind myself I had a 37-day cycle in 2015 and yet I've been pg (with OE) since. Getting v. worried and spending too much time ugly crying.

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I get you on the travel costs, even when trying to do it as economically as possible. But timewise, you could probably fit in 2 OE cycles (with FET) this year .... and line up and start a DE cycle too? If you're organised. Which you are.

One of my own reservations about donor eggs is the extent of (or lack of) matching of any characteristics. I don't know what's available as I haven't really looked into it myself. Do you know? I wonder if anyone else on here does? For better or worse my DD shares a lot of my characteristics (much more like me than her dad) so it's a big stumbling block for me. I can't say this delicately, but for example, you're lucky to be very tall, so would it be important to you try to match things like that and would it even be possible? I suppose that's where I'm coming from in thinking it might be nice for you to have another try with OE, but of course it's incredibly personal and none of my business, I fully appreciate that.


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## Flyby

Hi Beside, just to say that when I was taking Estrogen before my FET it was supposed to stop me ovulating so perhaps it is that. I did ovulate but apparently that is unusual and most people don't. F x


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## Syd72

If I'm sharing it on here then it is yours/anyone's business   It's also really helpful to talk all this stuff through because it helps me to think about it and there's no way OH will want to talk about it in any detail.  I'm just grateful that you/anyone else on here is happy to talk through this stuff.

My understanding is you can specify things like characteristics you want matched but obviously the more specific you get then the harder it is to match.  Having said that, from reading up on Serum, there's never any waiting time and matching seems to be an easy process.

I completely get where you're coming from, if I already had a child it would be a whole different ball game.  OH and I are actually very different in many ways so we cover a whole range of characteristics between us.  The way I'm selling it to him is that it might be good to have a child that doesn't inherit some of my annoying habits   On a serious note, there's quite a lot of anxiety and depression in my family, some of it fairly severe.  I don't suffer from either and never have (so far, fingers crossed) but that's not to say it's not laying dormant inside me ready to be passed on.  Of course that could be true of a donor as well but I'm trying to think of it from that angle.

I guess I just need to take a deep breath and see what happens on OTD, then go from there rather than tying myself up in knots about "what ifs".  Slightly obsessive could be another undesirable personality trait...


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* -  it's a minefield, isn't it!!!?

Well I think you're still young enough, especially given your AMH, to have a last hurrah with your OE. Hope any chats with Serum make things a bit clearer. Of course they're BOUND to tell you you'd have a _better _chance statistically with DE, they are nothing if not ethical, (and they may also helpfully clarify that the Pope is a Catholic), but that doesn't mean you have to write off your own eggs just yet, if you don't want to, does it? (At least one of your 'failed pregnancies' was prior to your fibroid removal wasn't it?)

On the anxiety/depression; DP's father is severely bipolar (as was his brother). None of his 3 kids are, including DP. In the same way, thankfully the challenges you mention have missed you too, but in any case it's a positive thing that you're also probably in a better position than most to recognise any early signs/support a child with this.

Just a thought. On the spotting you've had - what's it like? When I've been pregnant I've had spotting that's been pale pink and watery, also spotting that's been teeny tiny red spots and then some darker brown. So not necessarily a bad sign for you, could be a good one?

*Flyby*- <waves> good to hear from you again - how are you?

Interesting point as I'm wondering that about the Estrogen. What type/dose of estrogen did they give you? If a person doesn't ovulate you'd expect a really long cycle, right? Anovulatory cycles tend to be longer?

I've previously used estrogen as patches (Estraderm 100mcg) when the Lister prescribed them for me. I don't know how the amount of estrogen compares with these Progynova HRT tablets. Presumably if these tablets are a higher dose then more likely to have an impact? Anyway, I tried the patches in 2 cycles; one was a weird cycle for other reasons (long story) but as regards cycle #2, AF came at a normal time. So whereas I'd been thinking that the Estraderm patch didn't seem to delay AF at all, but actually, I only started it AFTER ovulation.


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## Flyby

I've had a search and can't find my doses but I seem to remember it maybe starting off with 2mg Prgynova each day, then changing to twice a day and then perhaps to three times, gradually from cycle day one to after test result. Can't remember how long on each dose though 🤔


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Flyby* - thanks. If that protocol was supposed to stop you ovulating, and it started off at just one 2mg Progynova tablet for a while, maybe it could've had an impact on my AF then? The leaflet says it's not a contraceptive, but I suppose there's a difference from it being designed as a contraceptive and guaranteed to stop ovulation, and it possibly having that impact.

I've since stumbled across one or two posts where ladies have been asking about whether Progynova can delay (or even stop) AF and what I can gather from my shallow and entirely unscientific 'research' is that it's not supposed to, but it might. The lack of AF is worrying me, I know that much 

*Syd *- sorry, in the midst of my ramblings earlier today, I forgot to say, hope there's still time for a BFP this cycle? Still my have fingers crossed for you.


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## Syd72

Seaside the spotting was watery pink but that's fairly normal for me. Just had that butbyesterday morning and a tiny bit earlier this morning so it must be the progesterone. Both pregnancies were after the fibroid removal, first time of trying after the op then first time of trying after the miscarriage. So basically the first twice I tried after the op I got pregnant.


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## ricks3

Hi Ladies - have been lurking for a while - I was doing an OE cycle with Gennet but yesterday it got cancelled due to poor response. Feeling pretty depressed and low. They are getting back to me with a new protocol to try and advise me taking 2 menstrual cycles out before starting stimms again. I am torn between taking the advice and also knowing that waiting 2 more menstrual cycles makes my dwindling eggs even older. So confused and sad.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ricks3* - sorry to hear about your IVF cancellation, you must be very disappointed. I was wondering what medication you'd been trying and whether you know yet what they're changing it to? Whatever, hopefully the new protocol will do the trick next time. I think it's very positive that Gennet are thinking about it and trying something different for you, isn't it? I've heard allowing a couple of cycles 'rest' can help with follicle recruitment / help get better follicle numbers next time, so hopefully a short break will actually help you get a good outcome. Have you worked out roughly what date you expect to start your new protocol?

*Syd* - slightly nervously wondering if you might have any good news for us? 

I finally got AF today, ending a 36 day cycle. I was relieved for about 5 minutes, then immediately started worrying about whether I'll be able to do another IVF cycle. It's such hard work this.


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## Syd72

Ricks3, really sorry to hear that.  I don't have any advice I'm afraid as I'm just not knowledgeable enough in any of this but do keep us posted.

Seaside, thanks for asking.  Not really is the answer.  I tested this morning with a frer, one of those that you should read within 3 mins and discard after 10.  I think I read it within about 2 mins, negative so I went back to bed.  Checked again when I got up around 20 mins later and there was the faintest of faint faint lines.  A real "hold it up to the light and squint" line, can't even tell what colour it is but I'm assuming it's an evap.  I'm actually thinking I'm just going to ring the doctors when they open and ask them to do a blood test, they're generally pretty happy to do stuff like that and result will be back tomorrow, if not late tonight.

Really glad that AF has turned up at last.  You're right, this is such hard work, there's never a "breather" stage you're either upset about AF (on months your'e trying), worrying about ovulation or in the tww.  I hate how it takes over everything but that doesn't stop me googling random crap all the time.  What's the next stage for you, a scan?  And when?


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## Beside_the_seaside

Syd - oh wow, sending positive vibes for your blood test!  I've never had an evap on a FRER. If negative they've been white as the driven snow.  Just sayin'.


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## Syd72

Thanks Seaside.  Blood test result just came back at 6.3 so only barely in the "pregnant" bracket and likely not viable.  They want me back in a week for another test.  With my chemical last year I had a result of 7 when I was 5 days further along than this.  I'm really not hopeful.


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## ricks3

Thanks for the kind words ladies - I was on 350 menopur long protocol but only got 1 good follie so cycle cancelled due to poor response. The clinic are really pushing the 2 menstrual cycles out - what can I do to help boost my ovaries in that time? I guess acupuncture? I've not got the new protocol yet - should get it early next week. I suppose that now I will be looking at a cycle in July... This is the hardest thing I have ever done and spend a lot of my time on the verge of tears. Thank you ladies for your support.

Syd - I am keeping everything crossed for you xxxx


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## LuckyE

syd - the great thing is that the thing tried to implant! I'd feel encouraged with. 

Ricks - Welcome to the thread. I've found it really supportive and hope you will too. so sorry to hear your negative. I know how you feel about wasting time as your eggs are just ageing. - I'd rest for a month and TTC naturally if I can. 

Besides - Glad AF has shown up. What's the next plan?

AFM - chances of TTC naturally have dwindled further having read my last HSG result to find that the one tube I thought was open (the left) is only partially open so really I'm up    creek. We're going through the motions this month (we have clearly been going through the mtions the last 2 months) but we're going to Greece for June but then I think that's my dud ovary/tube so not sure... ANYWAY the plan is to have a scan on day 10 this month to see if there are any follies from this letrozole and then pray.

I really want to do IVF this month but OH can't go  -so I'm gonna just work towards June. Booked in for fertility massage - costs a bomb - not sure it works but I feel like I need to do something and taking loads of serrapeptase. Also gonna just be healthy. I really feel conceiving for me will be just down to luck cos boy do I need it! 




ESJ, Blondie, and anyon eelse hello, hope you are okay.


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## LuckyE

Ricks - I so know how you feel


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## Besidetheseaside

Hi Ricks3

I'm a big fan of estrogen priming. We planned to go to Turkey last year as egg donation isn't allowed there and they're doing everything to help you getting pregnant with own eggs. I had 3 failed cycles with only a few eggs each time. This doctor suggested estrogen priming and I did it this time (Estrogen patches and Antagonist/orgalutran) in England. I had 9 eggs, all fertilised and 4 very good Blastocysts frozen. I think it did the trick. 
Read about it more, there are studies which are showing the benefits for 'oldies' and women with low ovarian reserve. 
PM me if you need more information. 
xx


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Ricks* - I vaguely remember reading about a theory that FSH/LH combo drugs like Menopur are not great for egg quality once you're 'older'. Was it something to do with the LH and premature luteinisation? I don't know.

You asked "what can I do to help boost my ovaries" before your July IVF, apart from your acupuncture. This book on supplements gets recommended all the while, so no doubt you've heard of it already, but just in case not, maybe check out "It Starts with the Egg: How the Science of Egg Quality Can Help You Get Pregnant and Prevent Miscarriage" by Rebecca Fett, 2014. Then the usual diet stuff; try to eat high protein, low carb if you can.

*LuckyE* - you know all the stories about the fluid they use in HSG helping to clear tubes out, leading to swift BFP afterwards? Well fingers crossed! As regards your scan day 10 this cycle, do you need to hope the best follies are growing on your 'good' side?

*Mountain* - really interesting point about Turkey; _"... as egg donation isn't allowed there ... they're doing everything to help you getting pregnant with own eggs"_. I've sometimes idly wondered whether if treatment with donor eggs didn't exist, or else was disallowed in the UK, that clinics would properly put their backs into researching better solutions for older women or those with very low ovarian reserve. There'd be greater financial incentives for sure.

Also interesting to read about your Estrogen Priming protocol. The Lister gave me Estrogen Priming (Estrogen patches = Estraderm 100mcg) for 14 days prior to AF/CD1 of IVF cycle, then short antagonist protocol (Gonal F + Cetrotide). I got pregnant, so at least the protocol seemed to work, but sadly had 2nd tri loss (which I don't attribute to the protocol, of course).

*Syd* - I'm so sorry that you say this is likely not viable - I hope you're wrong on this point. I Googled a B-HCG level of 6, as obviously that's the best place to find reliable medical information. First result was a random forum post by some woman whose level of 6 became 25 within 48 hours. Hoping there's scope for yours to do similar.

If it's not to be this time round (I feel daft saying this as hopefully you won't need it, but if I don't mention it now I'll forget) - have you considered Natural Killer Cells / immune issues? In particular the Coventry tests?
https://www.mededcoventry.com/Research_and_Development/Facilities/Implantation%20Clinic%20leaflet.pdf
It's possible that the pricing is out of date (I've an idea it's now around the £500 mark) but I imagine the other details should still be OK.

I'm having an IVF assessment scan on day 6 (Monday 8th). I'm feeling so totally low and negative about it, I'd barely be bothered to mention it, were it not for the fact that a couple of you were kind enough to ask. We'll see. (I've been crying most of today for not having at least tried IVF 2-3 years ago, Spring 2014 to be precise. Could've done. Should've done. Nearly did, but then didn't. Not in the least helpful, I know, but how I feel. I'm such a  idiot.)

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## Besidetheseaside

Hi 😊

I just think it's a numbers game. My colleagues wife had to do 8 ICSI for there 2nd child at the age of 44. She did 6 for there first at 39. A lot of couples don't have enough money and patience and some relationships don't survive that either.
We'd have loved to go back to Istanbul but we weren't married back than but if our next 2 FET's don't work we'll definitely go back in September. We're getting married in August! 
As egg donation isn't allowed, they do usually embryo banking and after a few cycles with PGS, a transfer and that all for a 1/4 of the UK prices. 

All the best and loads of patience xx


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## LuckyE

Mountain78 - Hi Mountain, what's this clinic called? It sounds interesting... Do you need to be married to use this clinic? I believe it's a numbers game, too. Do I have the money? Not sure...  Congratulations on getting married. You must be so excited

BEside the seaside - yes, it's my good ovary this month - well lets hope so... Don't beat yourself up. What clinic are you with? Yes. I am praying that the HSG did open the tube. Who knows? I'm giving it my best shot. 

Okay so I asked Serum about doing Estrogen priming - they said they hadn't seen good results - however, they are starting a programme with stem cells or something which will regenerate the ovaries and grow younger eggs. Sounds REALLY scary but I did read something about that on here a couple of years ago... I'm not sure OH will go for that... also sounds expensive... But I might suggest estrogen priming for one round of IVF as I'll be doing natural IVF and just going for the one egg at a time is laborious so who knows?

Ricks3 - I've read that book it was good. I also read about high protein. 2 years ago I was so strong - ate high protein low carb was brilliant at it - lots of good fats like avocados, took melatonin and DHEA and coq10 and I had great eggs. Cut out sugar, too.. Wheatgrass shots. I took bee pollen but then stopped due to Fett's advice... Allways got blasts.  Will be interesting to see what will happen 2 years later as now... I just find it hard to do anything - but I have to try, I guess!


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## Beside_the_seaside

*LuckyE* - well my situation with clinics is this (you'll wish you never asked). I've been doing some embryo banking with Create, St Paul's, I bought a 6-cycle package and probably won't get to finish it. Only 2 decent frozen embryos from 4 cycles, plus 1 ropey one. I'd previously done one fresh ICSI cycle at the Lister (Jan 2016) that resulted in a 2nd trimester loss. I changed clinics as I'd lost my bottle to do a fresh cycle with no back-up in the freezer. But changing clinics (re-assessments, crappy administration) wasted precious time I really didn't have. I'm feeling sickened by the dawning realisation that in my case, my money would've been far better spent going straight into one more fresh cycle at Lister last summer (crikey, if it had actually worked, I'd have given birth last month), then a 3-cycle package at Create if need be.

I've pretty much lost any faith I had left. Although this woman's even older than me! It seems unbelievable but apparently aged 50 "retrieved 3 oocytes which resulted in 2 grade I embryos and 1 grade II embryo on day 3" and live birth following a 3 day transfer: 
http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(14)02352-8/pdf

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## Blondie71

Just a quickie for Syd can you do a clear blue digital as should pick up on any doubling, you can't keep us all waiting a week 😭


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## Blondie71

LuckyE you're right to be cautious about the stem cell as it's still too in it's infancy yet, I've seen a few parents on a brain injury support group I'm with take their child for treatment with it and there is little to no change and all have come back broke and disillusioned sadly so save your cash for what's proven 😙


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## Syd72

Thanks Blondie  I'm going back today for second blood test, my progesterone runs out tonight and the Lister don't want me to stop it until I know for sure it's not viable. Takes a couple of hours for the results to come back so by the time you're all up in the uk I'll know. Got nothing on a regular clearblue yesterday so I'm sure levels will be under 5 now.

Edit: cancel that, didn't hear back so now it will be Monday


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - gosh the waiting must be horrible for you. What about your progesterone? Are you going to be able to carry on taking it until Monday, at least?


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## Syd72

Pretty horrible  They gave me more progesterone so I'll just keep taking it til I hear, I'm only on one per day. OH and I have been having long in depth discussions tonight about next steps, donor eggs etc


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## LuckyE

Besides - What if's are terrible! I've been going through so many but I just have to get on with it. We all do on this thread. I did love the 50 year old story. So good. Yes, it's very rare abut it did inspire me. 

Syd -   this is your time and it doubles. 

Blondie - yeah, I'm gonna leave it for now... serum are pretty good with trying new stuff and if it doesn't work ditching it so it will be interesting to see how this stem cell thing pans out.


----------



## Syd72

"Not pregnant" on a digi this morning so that's it for this cycle.


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Syd I'm so sorry   I saw you've been thinking about donor eggs - if you read about how happy all the people are who finally got their baby this way it is encouraging. I can imagine how you're feeling at the moment now though- sending you a big hug   xx

My clinic had told me I'd do 2 own egg clomid cycles so that's what I was expecting, but then extra meds on top to get more eggs was suggested this time. Considering I've had 6 MC's now and was told they can't prevent me having more, the idea of having several spare Frosties that could be several more MC's didn't actually sound appealing so I've made the difficult decision to have only 1 more go and then will have to move into donor eggs if necessary. My DH wondered if we should go straight onto adoption but it sounds so full of pitfalls & problems I'm not sure I can face it at the moment. These decisions are so hard & painful.


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Strawberry. I'm totally comfortable with de but my partner isn't, we're still discussing...  Adoption is definitely an easier preocess than it used to be, obviously still very thorough and intrusive but the process now has to be completed with 10 months so it doesn't drag on for years like it could do before. The matching process can still take a long time and be heart breaking. Would you consider DE?

I happened to open my work email folder by mistake earlier and noticed the doctor emailed me at 2pm yesterday to say levels down to 1.9 so officially a chemical pregnancy. Really wish I'd seen that yesterday but there you go.


----------



## Syd72

Seaside I hop you're ok. I totally get where you're coming from but you have to not beat yourself up about decisions you made, you thought that was the best thing to do at the time and that's all any of us can do. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

LuckyE, what's the issue with bee pollen, can you remember?


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Syd glad you're ok with the idea of donor eggs & hope your partner gets on board too. I had a chemical last September with my pgs normal embryo. I didn't realise the adoption process now has to be completed within 10 months, that does sound better. What puts us off is the idea of letters to birth parents and all the additional problems (trauma, behaviour, health, development etc) worries me. Do you mean donor embryos? Hadn't really thought about that but would probably go for just donor eggs if needed.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Thanks *Syd*for asking - but I'm not OK really, I feel like I'm losing my mind. Making poor decisions over which job/house/car to go for I can deal with. All of which I've done over the years, but they're all things that are rectifiable (up to a point) and ultimately not terribly important/who cares. Making bad decisions (or no decisions/paralysis) that results in the absence of a whole little person, for ever. It's just too much. 

*Syd* - I wondered whether you'd considered any tests for why you've sadly now had 2 CP's and 1 blighted ovum? I'd tentatively suggest that you might think about e.g. some immunes testing? If you did ever decide to move on to donor eggs, any issue would cause identical problems so it might be worth resolving/excluding it before a DE cycle? I know I've said it before (sorry) but still think this test is the best one (about £500): https://www.mededcoventry.com/Research_and_Development/Facilities/Implantation%20Clinic%20leaflet.pdf

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Syd thanks that's interesting to know anyway, I appreciate that.

Seaside sorry you're feeling down   I can totally empathise, sorry haven't got any solution but just remember the only thing you can predict in life is change, so better things ahead for you I'm sure.

I had the womb biopsy with Prof Quenby (who is lovely) and I had normal nk cells, altho some were a bit elevated when I had level 2 Chicago blood tests done last year also. I've had 1 blighted ovum & 1 chemical pregnancy amongst my various MC's. Prof Quenbys colleague Prof Brosens told me not to bother with pgs & id have to just keep trying & risk MC's at my age. He turned out to be right about pgs as we ended up doing it (at £4K) & our 1 normal embryo from 2 banked cycles was my chemical pregnancy. It's still worth having immune tests done I think. Serum have put me on steroids just in case.


----------



## Syd72

I'm just starting to look into more testing.  That one looks interesting, thank you, issue being I can't get back to the UK until the end of July.  I'm not sure if some of the tests can be done in Hong Kong, I need to investigate a bit more.

I'm sorry Seaside, I don't know what I can say to you, nothing that will make you feel better.  Regrets are one of the worse things in life.


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - If I recall, Coventry would want you to be 2 cycles post any miscarriage before testing, although I can't fully remember how you count the AFs, so perhaps end of July would work out about the right time anyway. Also they test on about CD19, after ovulation, so you can't TTC within the same cycle. There seem to be very few places that do the test via an endometrial biopsy (in fact Coventry's the only one I'm aware of) but it's apparently more reliable and (bizarrely) cheaper than if done via blood tests.


----------



## scattykatty

Hi ladies,

I'm one of those 40+ who stalks your feed and I truly am inspired and informed by you all! Just wanted to say that my clinic does the NK biopsy as a freebie when you have the endoscratch (£350) and I don't think it'll be the only one - it's Nurture fertility in the Midlands and it's part of the fertility partnership so might be worth trying their partners?

Good luck and really sorry it didn't work out Syd this time x


----------



## Blondie71

Aww syd I am sorry to see your update had hoped to read good news for you 😢 ❤ if you haven't seen a member named agate on here check out the info in her siggy, I figured a fair bit of my own lack of implantation from her info too x


----------



## esj

So sorry to hear this news *Syd_72 * I hope you can take some time to process and consider your next steps.
*Seaside* also sorry to hear you are feeling down. Tomorrow is a new day and hopeful you will feel more positive then. Thinking of you all.
Take care xx


----------



## LuckyE

So sorry, Syd


----------



## Besidetheseaside

I'm so sorry for you Syd72    take care of yourself and try it again xx

LuckyE, the clinic is called Bahceci in Istanbul and the consultant is Mr Karlikaya, he used to work in New York. 

Xx


----------



## Beside_the_seaside

Fair warning this will be a depressing post. After _yet another _critically disappointing scan, in all likelihood I think I'm done with any further egg collections. I can't decide if it's even worth bothering to look next month, but probably not. So I won't finish this multi-cycle embryo banking package nonsense.

Of course I regret that it took me far, far too long to get around to doing IVF, but mainly I'm immeasurably sad (and angry with myself too) that when I finally did get around to throwing money at my secondary infertility, I made such bad decisions. For the record, I should've picked one fresh cycle at what I believed to be the best clinic for my circumstances (The Lister) - followed by just 3 cycles of embryo banking. Might not have even come to it, who knows. But that way at least I would've got in an egg collection/transfer July 2016 (the protocol was already written up at the Lister, I just had to phone in on my AF!) - i.e. nearly a year ago! As it was, I missed cycling last July altogether whilst Create faffed about keeping me waiting for appointments (- missed the red alert right there).

I do have a couple of ropey frozen embryos at Create, but I'm feeling too depressed/demoralised to even try to arrange the transfer. At some stage I should allow them to die inside me, rather than perish in a dish, is all I can think.

I apologise unreservedly for moaning as I recognise I am in many ways truly blessed to have one child already, when I know women on this thread (and in life) who have no children, or none yet. But as I always wanted two children (at least), the process of trying to let go of the family I'd envisaged is unbearably painful. I know of course there are other ways to achieve 2 children, but my DD blocks my ability to progress any such train of thought. Some kind of blended family with genetic + donor/adopted children doesn't feel like a genuine alternative. However ridiculous it sounds, I doubt I'd be brave enough to take the risk of having a 'favourite' child and a 'second best' child, it wouldn't be fair on anyone concerned. And how would we all cope once they came to understand that one is my genetic child, but the other wasn't? (Particularly as DD is an identikit of me ) But my lack of courage (if that's what it is) to even explore alternative options feels like yet another failure. Oh I'm just too sad and damaged to deal with all this ...

So I'm trying (and currently failing) to be positive about parenting an only child; as in, an only child '_forever_', not just '_for now_'. I've no idea where to start, it feels completely new. I was way happier at a time when I was childless but believed that 2 children were coming in my future. I suppose that fed the temptation to procrastinate trying, taking one's fairytale future for granted. Nothing's guaranteed until it's actually a reality, is it?

I've no doubt this will come across as self-indulgent, ungrateful nonsense, I'm too sad to be in any way articulate. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone - not my intention, obviously. Going off to have another cry.


----------



## ricks3

Oh beside the seaside - I am so sorry you are feeling so low and sad - I totally understand, empathise with and get everything you have written - I too am angry at decisions I have made in the past - hindsight is a powerful thing but you can only do what you can or are advised to do at the time. I also have 1 DD and my DH will not consider any blended family, DE or adoption for the same reasons you describe so if this last attempt fails for us we will also be somehow adjusting as you say to the one child forever not just for now. I feel angry and desperate and sad and all of the feelings you describe - if only we had acted sooner, been advised differently etc and now it looks like it will be too late.... You are not alone. Your feelings are totally valid, please don't apologise and please do feel you can vent here as much as you like - you are amongst friends who really do understand. There's an awful lot of grief in this - for the future we may not have. I think we have to deal with that first in order to embrace and be happy with the bits we do have, and that is going to take time.

Sending you lots of love and strength and a big hug. Have that cry, be kind to yourself and hopefully, hopefully you will pickup a little soon. xxxxxxx


----------



## LuckyE

I'm so sorry Besice_the_seaside  . 
Did the clinic say there's no point doing any further egg collections?

I would finish the cycle - you've got nothign to lose. I've seen people with dodgy cycles and then they have eggs the next cycle. Just keep scanning and see what the best cycle is for you. Were there any follicles? 

Are you doing natural with create?

I would also put those two "ropey" embies back, like you say you will. I know they don't feel like optimistic embies but it ain't over till it's over. 

Then draw a line.


----------



## TTCNK

Hi seaside - so sorry to read your post - this board is for us to share our ups and downs..  I completely understand your need not to do DE - it is a very personal choice too - I was where you were a few months ago, not sure I would have had the courage ( indeed if that what it is).    I'd also be tempted to give the embies a chance you just never know..and whatever I had left from a new cycle POV view if you've paid why not try ( if you have the physical and emotional energy).  I think the hardest part is being able to let go  - we put some much into TTC  fro so many years to suddenly stop is a foreign concept ( to me it was at least)..  I kind of needed to let myself down gently.. from failed IVF to TTC naturally will just mild drugs etc...  that is how I was trying to approach things, I could not just go cold turkey if I am making sense and yes whilst I got very lucky, it helped  reduced my stress levels hugely and mentally I was preparing myself to slowly let go..
Take care seaside and continue to rant if that helps and take time to work through this xx


----------



## Syd72

Thanks everyone.

I'm so sorry Seaside.  No-one on this board is going to judge you in any way for your post, we're all here to support each other and we all have different circumstances.  You're always so incredibly supportive of everyone else.  There are no words to help you but please do have your frozen embryos transferred when you feel ready, one (or both) of them could very well be your perfectly healthy baby-in-waiting.  

I don't have any great wisdom or wonderful ideas about how to come to terms with all of this, I don't know how to come to terms with my own situation.  All I know is that "talking" on these boards with other people that truly understand helps me and I hope you too.  

With love.


----------



## esj

Hi *Seaside* so sorry you are feeling this way. I will echo *Syd's* words in that we are all going though this together so can totally empathise with your feelings of despair. Its invaluable to me have the support of everyone in this minefield and you have been especially supportive and beyond knowledgeable. I realise secondary infertility is also devastating as your family unit has not met your expectations. I am truly devastated I might never get to meet my baby and my road to this place is littered with regrets and poor choices. 
All we can do is do the best we can and take any opportunities that come our way. Please don't give up on the embies/tx if you feel you are strong enough emotionally. I'm sure you would say the same to any of us.
One last word, and I hope this doesn't sound trite or dismissive- I'm an only child and cant say its had any negative impact on me (my absent father did but that's a whole other story).
Thinking of you so much and sending hugs.
xxxxx


----------



## agate

LuckyE said:


> Okay so I asked Serum about doing Estrogen priming - they said they hadn't seen good results - however, they are starting a programme with stem cells or something which will regenerate the ovaries and grow younger eggs. Sounds REALLY scary but I did read something about that on here a couple of years ago... I'm not sure OH will go for that... also sounds expensive... But I might suggest estrogen priming for one round of IVF as I'll be doing natural IVF and just going for the one egg at a time is laborious so who knows?


They are starting the stem cell treatment now.


----------



## LuckyE

Hey guys, I had my 9 day scan to check out my response to femara/letrozole.  4 follies on right ovary. 2 follies on left. The lead follie 13 mm. The rest are half the size. that was my clomid response.. so pleased with the number of follies.BUT the right tube is blocked... sod's law right?

Feel really angry. Frustrated. Especially as OH is reluctant to go to a "foreign clinic" and believes we can still TTC naturally with only half a working fallopian tube. It's just too much hard work.


----------



## Agaamh

@Lucky
what was your daily dosage of letrozole?
My first stimulation with letrozole was 5 mg per day as frim day 3 
until d7. The result 3 follies on one side and 2 on another.
Only one managed to ovulate.Confirmed by scan and blood.
The second cycle, with 5 mg as from d2 to d6.Result on the
D9 five follis on the right the same size 12 mm.One on the left.
On day 12 only 3 follies size 16 mm, others did not grow.
On d14 only 1 size 14 mm and 2 small.Why this regression?
I am frustated.Each scan I had blood checks, so no ovulation occured:-(
We try naturally for time being.My hormones level are still ok but according to my
doctor does not mean anything in my age 
Regarding EPP protocol, in my case was the worst result.I responded well to
long protocol and mild IVF with menopur.


----------



## LuckyE

Oh wow agaamh - that's interesting. Thank you for sharing your experience. So sorry that it didn't work. Maybe natural IVF is the way to go with this then?  I'm gonna send results to Serum and see what they say - if there's any point doing this with IVF in the hope of getting more than one egg... 

For anyone trying femara - it really killed my sex drive! I felt like rubber! So happy it's coming back!


----------



## Agaamh

@Lucky for me it was the opposite so everyone makes a different experience with femara
Tell me pls the dosage of femara you had?


----------



## LuckyE

agaamh - I had 2  x 2.5 mg from days 2-6.


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## Agaamh

@Lucky thank you for your answer. Despite of the last results my next protocol for Icsi will be femara combined with menopur


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## Syd72

Serum mentioned stem cell treatment to me yesterday - that's far too big a scary step for me!

Seaside, hope you're ok.  And everyone else.


----------



## LuckyE

Syd - how did your meeting go with Serum? Did they say how much the stem cell thing cost? Have they had results or would you be part of their trial? it DOES sound scary... 

Agaamh - good luck with this protocol. Please let me know how it works.

Hello everyone! Not much to report. Just waiting for next AF to see if I can talk OH to go to Greece for a fresh IVF or if I'm going for a couple of my FETS.


----------



## Syd72

LuckyE I've only had email contact with them so far but they've been incredibly responsive and helpful.  They didn't mention price but I imagine it would be expensive!  I don't think there's any chance of getting OH to talk about DE until end June as he's got a big court case then - his ex is trying to remove their child from the country so now just isn't the time.  To be honest, I'm coming to the conclusion that this just isn't going to happen for us.

Are you having any luck talking OH round?  I mentioned to Katie at Serum that it's my partner that has the issue with DE not me (I know you're not going that route) and she said it's usually the case, they just don't feel the urgency that we do.  I think fresh IVF in Greece combine with some relaxing time in the sun is a fantastic idea!


----------



## LuckyE

Syd - So sorry about your OH. OH has his court case beginning of June - it's uphill and he's unlikely to win. It's crazy. He's had a court order before but she's flouted it. He's pretty angry over it all..  I'm not even sure she's going to turn up. she turned up late the last time and the case was thrown out because of it. so he's appealing... 

I sort of feel the same way, Syd72 - It's not going to happen. He needs to settle this court thing and his job is up in the air... yet he says he wants a family. WE are still a new relationship but he wants to try for 6 MONTHS!! He so doesn't get the urgency!  That's why I'm thinking of just trying with my own embies but he's not keen on those. He's up for adoption, though... So I think it's about feeling that we have equal rights over the child. I have to think of a compromise.


----------



## esj

Hi *Syd* *LuckyE*
I had a skype consult with Serum yesterday too. We were very pleased with the approach so going ahead with a 2 cycle package as soon as my AF arrives so its all on again. Bit stressed about the last minute travel thing and fitting it around work but will have to deal with it. I am still apprehensive but OH really wants to give it this last shot then after that who knows.
I asked about the stem cell treatment too, it looks like it would cost another €4 or 5 k and no results yet so I'm not going for it. 
Good luck with what you decide girls xxx


----------



## Blondie71

Esj are you doing the minimum stims? That really seems to be getting great results from all new babies born I've seen on the serum threads 👍I had the more aggressive stimulation and that seems a breeze in comparison


----------



## Syd72

Good luck for you and OH LuckyE, it's just so horrible and stressful.  Men are so funny in the way they think about things.  I just don't get why my OH is worried about bonding with a baby that we could have born from de - it's still his sperm so genetically his child but he has a real issue with it.  Honestly, I don't want to go through a pregnancy constantly worried about him not bonding with the baby.  I suspect he would generally be a bit distant from the whole pregnancy too.

Esj, I can't remember what your back story is and can't see signatures once I'm in "reply" mode   Will this be your first time with Serum?

Edit: Ok, I've seen it now...  Did Serum recommend trying again with OE?  Or is it more that they're agreeing to what you want to try?


----------



## Syd72

Just a little something that has made me smile this afternoon.

I have a big event taking place next week so I'm running through the last minute notes in my notebook.  I have a habit of writing personal notes in the back of my book and I've just reached the point where the two have met.  As I'm reading through to check I haven't forgotten anything, it goes:

Check exact number of cocktail tables for lunch.
Send note about car hire.
PM break add food.
Have frozen sperm already.


----------



## LuckyE

SYD     so funny! 

PS - have floated Greece  to OH - that we do this alongside his "professional consultant route"... I think once he sees if we can get a referral to the NHS - AGAIN - I'm hoping he'll compromise... The thing is, he's very stubborn. But can you imagine the NHS consultant saying go to Greece?  I don't know. I have said I'm going in June... and he can come along... so lets see.. I just want a holiday TBH. Fingers crossed something will stick once he's cooled down   

ESJ - so glad you're going. I believe for cost and getting you to blasts - Serum is ace. To try and get several embies at different cycles in the womb increases the chances I think. Wish that was me. Would love to put this baby thing to bed once and for all. 

Blondie _ i need to check out that thread. Haven't looked there in ages. Need to feel inspired! 

Aaggh - Day 17 and no ovulation peak on my OPK stick. Maybe on Femara I didn't ovulate either? Not that it matters.


----------



## ricks3

Hi everyone, I've not been posting much as have been feeling pretty low and didn't want to drag down the board but have been trying to keep up with all of your stories.

Gennet have finally sent me a new protocol - no down regulation or BCP. It seems to be a cycle that starts on day 1 of my natural cycle by taking Femera, then adding menopur on day 3, adding cetrotide on day 8 and triggering with ovitrelle.... then cyclogest and clexane after ET.

Does anyone know about these drugs or how they are supposed to work differently from my last protocol? I've written back to them for some more information but hopefully someone here will be able to advise too.

Sending love to everyone. xxx


----------



## esj

Hi all
I got my AF early (day 24) so all set for going to Serum first visit next week. picking up meds tomorrow, having all necessary tests with them on arrival, so far so smooth. Then go to check flights. Bank holiday weekend so the best I can find are £400 return flights!!! Each!! So basically a big chunk of what we thought we were saving.
Anyone have any ideas, or a private jet?!


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Hi everyone, hope you're all doing ok. 

Ricks I haven't tried your protocol but it is definitely easier on the body to have no down-regging so good luck, I hope it goes well for you  

ESJ I've been in Serum this week. Yes it can be tricky with flights. I got a flexi ticket from Aegean Airlines but there was a strike 1 day with flights cancelled, so you have to keep an eye out for things like that. All the best with your treatment too!  

I currently have 2 embryos, am waiting to see about freezing in a few days. It was suggested to me I also do a fresh natural egg retrieval to collect 1 egg & use on day 3 with a frozen one/s, but I'm not sure about that yet. I was so happy thinking it was my last ever egg collection & sedation (previous one was a bit of a nightmare), not sure I want another & the extra expense? I also went on my own so not sure if I fancy being out even longer that way. Hmm.. Also I'm a bit scared of a triplet miscarriage with my history  

Syd your list was funny   I hope you send your note about hire car and not about frozen sperm!

Take care all, have a nice weekend xx


----------



## esj

Thanks *Strawberry Sundae*   Well done on your collection! And thanks for the advice on serum recently.
I looked at Aegean but they were even more pricey! Its fine just bit the bullet and booked them, will make it into a mini break hopefully. There's an Island called Hydra I've wanted to visit for years so maybe we can do a little trip there too.
*Syd* sorry late reply- yes its my first time there. I said from the get go we wanted to try 2 clomid cycle with my OE so didn't discuss donor. This will be the last shot at OE though.
thinking of you all. Happy weekend
XXX


----------



## StrawberrySundae

Sorry ESJ I got a bit confused!!   All these hormones!   Hydra sounds lovely, I'd like to visit an island next time if no strikes on xx


----------



## pauli

hello ladies, I see you have a lot of experience and knowledge between you. I am after an advice. Has anyone done an antagonist protocol where Cetrotide was used also *before starting the stimulation* for a few days (and then later during the stimulation to prevent ovulation of the eggs)? I have searched the internet for any information but found nothing. Please share if you have experience with this type of protocol. Many thanks.


----------



## LuckyE

Pauli - Hiya. Welcome. I don't know what an antagonist protocol is but I have used cetrocide to stop ovulation in some cycles. It's pretty normal. Nothing to worry about.  I haven't heard of it being used before the start of the protocol. Maybe ask the clinic why they suggest this? Please let me know the answer.  Sounds interesting. 

ESJ - I feel your pain. Just trying to book my tickets out there for aquascan. I haven't been to Greece in 2 years. I don't remember flights being so pricey or for so long! I imagined 2 hour flights not 4 hours! Plan to head out in July to cycle. Think I'll be shocked with the prices then! I've been to Hydra. It's nice. I went to another island further away. That was good too. 

Strawberry Sundae - how are your embies doing? Do they want you to come out next month to do the fresh collection? I think that's how i understand it? But you want to put the two embies back now?  I can imagine the expense. What have you decided?

Not much to report here - current state of play with OH is have a cycle with Lister and do the 2 for one at Serum. Then we call it a day with that.  I'm not feeling lister. Years ago I so wanted to try Lister but coudln't afford it. Now, I can afford it but just feel it's too late for my age so want to spend the least amount of money. I just want to do the Greece thing  - I can't face taking loads of drugs for one embryo if that...  but things might change and we just do Greece.


----------



## Syd72

Welcome Pauli, I can't help you on that I'm afraid as on my cycle I started cetrotide on day 5 and stimms on day 2.

LuckyE, have you done the infection testing with Greece?  I've just had mine come back positive for hidden chlamydia and something else.  I feel slightly sceptical, partly because EVERYONE seems to come back with a positive for hidden c which just seems unlikely.  They're saying both oh and myself need to go on 25 days of antibiotics and can only drink minimum alcohol whilst taking them.  That's fine for me but OH likes a beer most nights, especially with the court stuff coming up.  To be honest, I think he may refuse to do the antibiotics.  We haven't talked about Greece again yet.

Ricks3, sorry, I don't know enough about the drugs.  I thought I read somewhere that menopur is more natural than gonal f but that's just a vague memory.  I took gonal f.  I've never down regged either.

ESJ, excited to hear about Serum, I like the look of Hydra too.  If we do decide to go ahead at Serum I don't think I'll now be able to cycle with them til November as they're closed for August so the weather won't be so nice 

Strawberry, fortunately haven't emailed anyone at the conference about my frozen sperm 

I've noticed for the past week or so my boobs are a bit sore and I'm still getting really vivid dreams, never really had this before in the first half of my cycle.  I know I'm not pregnant because we haven't had sex since before the IUI -don't even get me started on that subject!  I'm wondering if it's the DHEA supplements which I've started up again - did anyone else get those side effects?


----------



## LuckyE

Syd72! - Ahh DHEA! I think it is!  I think that's what's giving me really bad PMS symptoms. Heavy boobs and irritability and anger! I believe it's that. I kept thinking it was the beginning of the menopause but it makes so much sense. I've never had such sensitive boobs. 

Yes, I've done the infection testing. Twice. I have hidden C  but if I involve OH about this he will NEVER cycle at Serum. He's so sceptical as it is.  I think I'll just have to take the antibiotics for me when i cycle. (or If...)  There are other clinics in the UK that do this testing now, that expensive doctor people go on about - G*** does it or did it last year or so I believe... Also there have been people who have been tested that dont' have it. I've read that across the boards over the years.  One lady I read she had the test and was positive but then got pregnant anyway with another clinic before she began the antibiotics.


----------



## Syd72

You and I have a lot of the same OH issues!

I found last time (before my iui) dhea made me really angry and moody, it's doing the same this time.


----------



## Blondie71

Syd I got a negative hidden c test so I think they are fairly honest if it is picked up on the test, not sure if you've read up on it but it's not just the sexually transmitted type it can also be in your lungs etc and can have been there since childhood.


----------



## Syd72

Thanks Blondie.  I'm sure they're honest, I was wondering at the validity of the test I guess as it just seems such a huge amount of people get a positive. Not worried about the fact a (mostly) sexually transmitted disease has been picked up.  I decided to do it so I have to trust it 

I honestly cannot see my OH agreeing to take the antibiotics.  I'm away at the moment so haven't talked to him about it, he doesn't know I was having it done and I know he'll be massively sceptical about it, he doesn't even believe a positive pregnancy test until the doctor has confirmed it for some bizarre reason.  We talked about donor eggs a couple of weeks ago but the subject of babies hasn't come up at all since then.  I'm starting to think he's just dismissed the whole thing and moved on.


----------



## LuckyE

Sydd -  know the scepticism will always be there but do you think he's pre-occupied with the court case so can't think of anything at the moment?


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## Syd72

That's definitely part of it LuckyE but there's also the fact he just doesn't want this as much as I do.  He never seemed the slightest bit upset about the IVF BFN in February, once I told him the result he said "go back to bed and rest" and it was never mentioned again.  He made it clear last year that he was doing the IVF for me, and although he did want it to work he really wasn't that bothered when it didn't.  The fact we even briefly discussed DE a few weeks ago felt like a huge step forward but actually he really was not at all keen and he just hasn't mentioned it again, I think in his mind this is done with.  I honestly think this is the end of the road for us.  Or rather for me, he has a child.


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## estella

Ladies,

I'm 44 1/2. Apologies for posting but I feel closer to this thread than just the over 40s. I got this email from reprofit "the doctor would rather recommend egg donation treatment – have you already thought about it? Unfortunately your AMH is quite low and the chance for pregnancy is really low." My amh is 2.6. I'm feeling pretty low. Have pretty much decided against DE. I would love to hear some advice. I have been trying now for a year and a half. Was planning OE IVF in July - I don't have any other issues. Cant justify the cost and holiday time. What would you do in my case? Go ahead? Try naturally (I have taken tonnes of supplement combinations including dhea etc.)? Thanks so much :-( xx


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## Blondie71

Estella give serum a shout, penny is very pro own egg unless absolutely not a possibility


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## LuckyE

Estella - I had that AMH at 39! That was bad back then according to Guys hospital but I got loads of eggs with it still with Guys and Serum.  I suppose they're thinking age too, but I would so go for it. If you have 4K to spare (cost of 2 cycles at Serum) I would give it a go definitely. I know someone at 44 who got pregnant at Serum with OE thorugh Clomid cycle. She had a good AMH, too.  So I echo Blondie.

Sydd - I think it's a bit different if the man has his own kids they'll never want it as much because they don't feel the lack of not having a child. OH and ex OH both said/say they're doing it for me. My OH is not keen on DE either... TBH he's not keen on anything except a natural BFP... What about waiting to see how the court case goes and then when the dust is settled broach it? Whatever your strategy is... 2 goes of DE then give up, or 2 goes of OE and then DE then give up. Maybe he feels impotent here as he does over the court thing so doesn't want to deal so much?  But how do you feel? I get the impression you're saying you are giving up?


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## StrawberrySundae

Hi just wondered if anyone's seen that Serum and other places are doing stem cell treatment for regenerating ovaries? May be worth looking into, as costs similar price to an ivf cycle. Sounds amazing if it works 😊 x


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## LuckyE

Hi Strawberry - are other places doing it in the UK? are you going to trial it? I am waiting for the results - to see if it works for anyone. Initially I was shocked by it but I need to see results.

Syd72 - I am so sorry . . Have another conversation. Why does he think it's done? You don't have a child. You have to tell him it's not fair of him to deny you a child. When you entered the marriage he knew you wanted a child, the chance to be a mum. - *and press on! *If he wants to contribute (with Sperm) he can if he doesn't he doesn't. ( Unless you wouldn't consider Double Donor?) Because if you can't find a way of coping not being a mum you will blame him and your marriage is over anyway. If he loves you he will come round. If he's happy to try naturally and get your pregnant, I don't see why he wouldn't?


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## StrawberrySundae

LuckyE I don't know about any Uk clinics doing stem cell treatment. I'd be maybe interested in doing it at some point, only recently heard about it. 

Syd sending you a   This fertility journey sucks at times! Hope you feel better over the weekend.


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## Wunderwomban

Hi Strawberry....that's interesting re serum and the stem cell treatment....I can't see it anywhere on their website....might you have a link? I've come across this clinic....but it's in NYC which is quite a global trek! https://www.infertilityny.com/ovarian-rejuvenation-nyc/

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites[/size]


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## LuckyE

Margold - just contact them - they do it for 4K euro


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## Altai

Sorry for jumping in.
Hooe everybody is fine.

Its a promising thing re stem cell treatment.  I wonder whether somebody has actually done it and how/whether did it work?


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## Wunderwomban

Thanks Lucky....I got in touch with Sofia at Serum and she said it would cost between 4-5K euros, would involve 2 visits....one to take the blood (which has to be done during your period) and then a second visit around a month later. She was very vague as to all the steps surrounding it. I asked her for some links to research/articles and she just mentioned that their particular approach (which is a little different to the NYC link I posted....though she didn't explain how its different) hadn't yet been trialed on people....only mice. I believe the approach I referenced has been trialed on people....I think Genesis do it....but I find that they never respond to my emails! Crete seem to do a similar treatment....much cheaper around 1500E....but not sure why there's such a price difference. If I hear more I'll post


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## Flyby

Penny explains the difference between the two techniques is that the other one is trying to activate stem cells in the ovaries by injecting growth factors from serum plasma, but when we are older we don't have many stem cells anyway. Serum are taking stem cells from period blood, cultivating them to become many and then injecting them into the ovaries. They start off with about 50-80 cells and by cultivation reach numbers of 7-10 million to be injected into each ovary, the stem cells are then transformed into oocytes, this is known by the work with mice, so hopefully will do the same for humans. I wish this had been an option to try at the beginning of my journey! F x


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## Wunderwomban

Flyby, thanks for the explanation. Do you know what the next step is once you've had the treatment? Do they then recommended you try naturally or is it back to them for further IVF?


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## Syd72

They've emailed me about the stem cell stuff, basically you would be joining a human trial. Honestly it sounds very scary to me but it could be amazing.


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## Beside_the_seaside

Lately, I just haven't felt like I've got anything really to say anymore, I'm so miserable.

But *Syd* I did wonder what your current thoughts are for carrying on trying or not? I wanted to add my support to what others have said. I was really upset to read you saying "_I just have to find a way to try to cope with never being a mum_". I don't know how transient that comment was, but I have to say I think it's a massive ask, an impossible ask actually, for you to try to cope with that, without giving your best shot to your options for trying. Especially if you felt that not trying was in any part due to your OH being obstructive. If that didn't eventually breed such festering resentment that it broke up your relationship anyway, then you must be a saint. God knows how I wish I'd been much more assertive with DP years ago (just adding to a shopping list of regrets here).
Anyway, I think you can fund some treatment via insurance can't you? Your OH doesn't object to the idea of a child does he? So therefore just decide - on your own - what treatment you want, and organise when you're doing it. Present it to OH like a fait accompli; you've researched the best option and you won't be happy unless you do it. Presumably he'll need to turn up ONCE, somewhere, for a sperm sample, but no big deal.
I also notice you mentioned about your OH not taking the antibiotics for hidden C? Did you make any progress with that? What's the objection to taking them? Was it anything to do with no alcohol whilst taking them? If that's an issue, could you ask Serum how strict this actually is? E.g. is it that the treatment would be ineffective if you drink alcohol, or is it just something like alcohol would make you feel a bit sick whilst on the tablets.


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## Beside_the_seaside

I was interested to read the chat on ovarian rejuvenation treatments. I don't know quite what to make of it, except I'm annoyed with myself that I'm _almost _toying with the idea, despite having pretty much run out of both money and time ...

It goes without saying that I have no scientific background at all, but for anyone in a similar position, how on earth do you begin to decide whether a novel treatment is a safe move? Regardless of whether it might be ineffective/a waste of money, how do you risk assess whether you feel it's safe? Are there any scientists out there who could help?!!!

As far as I can tell, with the exception of Serum, all the clinics are using PRP (Platelet Rich Plasma) injections - blood platelets and growth factors. They seem to do the treatment in a day: take your blood, prepare the PRP, then inject it into the ovaries (in a process similar to egg collection). No idea how it's supposed to work to rejuvenate the ovaries though (perhaps by stimulating ovarian stem cells to produce new oocytes, as *Flyby *says)? But still it somehow seems less daunting than the Serum technique. Apparently PRP ("autologous platelet-leukocyte-rich plasma containing growth factors and thrombin") has been used for years in various different wound-healing, tissue repair type applications, oral maxillofacial surgery etc - you can find loads of examples from Dr Google. But whether it works for eggs, who knows?

As *Flyby *says, it seems Serum are unique in using a completely different technique. They're taking STEM cells from period blood - meaning they're coming from outside the ovary. Then they're being cultured/multiplied and introduced into the ovaries via laparoscopy, about a month later.

I don't pretend to know any more or understand the technique at all - and that's undoubtedly the reason for my concern - but at this stage, I'd be really quite worried about safety. If Stem cells are undifferentiated cells which are capable of being turned into any type of cells, including oocytes, how could you know the newly introduced STEM cells would turn into eggs and not, say cancer?

Because if you Google "ovarian stem cells cancer" (at least as a non-scientist like me) you could drive yourself crazy. Here's just a few totally at random: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4316675/ or 
https://molecular-cancer.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12943-017-0638-3
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2013/916819/ 
http://www.eurekaselect.com/76257/article: "_The human ovary is a complex endocrine gland, which is responsible for production of different hormones and provides mature and competent oocytes for reproduction. Additionally, it produces various substances, such as growth factors and cytokines which are involved in the complex signalling pathways of folliculogenesis or oogenesis. The abnormalities of ovarian function might lead to infertility or manifestation of aggressive cancer. Therefore, stem cells in adult human ovaries are of great interest to reproductive medicine for improved understanding of the mechanisms leading to ovarian infertility or cancer formation_"

Grateful if anyone can shed any light on this?

This post contains an unconfirmed link/information and readers are reminded that FertilityFriends.co.uk or its owners are not responsible for the content of external internet sites


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## Syd72

I think the rejuvination is just a bit too scary for me without knowing any effects on the child as they grow. I guess it could be worth asking Serum those questions? They do seem to be looking for people to do the trial so I'm sure would be happy to answer what they can.

Regarding giving up trying, the thing is I entered this relationship knowing he wasn't really fussed about having another child. We stopped using contraceptives very early on, mostly because I can't go on the pill or any other hormonal birth control and we both hate condoms so we were happy with "if it happens it happens", both probably thinking it wouldn't due to age. I did say early on that actually I was starting to feel more strongly about having a baby but it's not really fair of me to expect him to change his mind when he's been clear all along. He certainly has become more open to the idea hence the ivf and iui but I don't think he wants to keep going that route and donor eggs is a big ask of someone. We really can't discuss it right now, court is in two weeks and he is SO stressed and SO upset that he could soon be losing his child and going forward will only be able to see her a small handful of times each year. If the court case goes in our favour (which we've been warned it probably won't) then we can have the conversation very quickly but if it doesn't then I have no idea when we can have it because he will be beside himself. I'm sort of ok with postponing it because if we go the DE route I have October in my mind as the month to do it so there's not too much pressure. I've made an appointment with Serum for July so at least I can talk to them, have a scan, get the antibiotics etc. Trying naturally will be off the cards until after court and again, trying naturally afterwards will really depend on how it goes. I haven't had the antibiotics conversation yet for the same reasons. You're partly right *Seaside*, the alcohol aspect is one issue  I've already asked Serum and they've said the occasional been or glass of wine would be fine. But also he really hates taking tablets, I don't remember ever seeing him take painkillers, I gave up on vitamins a long time ago as he makes such a fuss about them! It breaks my heart to see how much he is suffering right now, I just can't add to that stress.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - I'm sorry for my clumsy message to you, I struggle to find the right words, particularly when I'm so miserable about my own situation. The court case must be a horribly stressful situation for your OH, awful, and you're being amazingly caring and protective of him, he's lucky to have you. I think I'd just wanted to say that even in the midst of that pressure cooker of stress, I hoped you'd find some reciprocal consideration for what you want. It's great to hear you're going to Serum as soon as July and that you seem to be calmly making plans. Hopefully your OH will manage the antibiotics too, if it's not an absolute alcohol bar.

Hope everyone else is doing OK. *ESJ *- are you going to Serum soon?


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## Syd72

It wasn't clumsy at all, I would have been asking the same questions of someone else saying the same thing (now there's a clumsy sentence!).  I do sometimes wonder if I'm mad pushing to have a baby when I'm mid-40s, he's almost mid-50s and we're struggling financially.  If he agrees to carry on trying, in whatever format, then he'll have to take the antibiotics, I'll just have to make sure it's whilst I'm here and not travelling so I can make sure he takes them!

What's the next step for you?


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## highlandgirl

Hello Ladies,

So sorry for not being in touch lately I have been keeping an eye on you all from afar and there seems to be so many of us on here I am not sure where to start with any personal messages!
Selfishly throwing my hat in the ring ( well I suppose I can seeing as I started the thread lol ) for a discussion on DHEA - I am quietly considering my 2nd and definitely last full cycle of IVF in 2-3 months and I am looking for everyone's experience as I was going to start taking it today - I love a 1st of the month start for anything?
Beside - did you start the micronized DHEA from Macpherson Labs - this is the one I have and was going to just go for 50mg a day for the next couple of months? Any side effects if you have taken it?
I am looking at going back to my clinic and having another short protocol as this did give me 3 eggs 2 fertilised and although it never worked I am hoping for the same result again although my AMH was 2.2 and is now 1.1 - eek!
I am only giving it until I turn 47 at the end of Sept and then calling it a day so I think one last shot throw it all at it eh??
xx


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## Syd72

Good luck highlandgirl!

I took 50mg DHEA for about 6 weeks leading up to my iui, then stopped for the tww.  Started again about 3 weeks ago, trying to take 75mg a day but been a bit more hit and miss this time.  The first time round I got quite a few spots, that doesn't seem to be happening this time.  I lose quite a bit of hair normally, handfuls have always come out in the shower when I'm washing it, I haven't noticed an increase.  This time the really vivid dreams I normally get after ovulation have continued through the whole month, along with slightly sore boobs.  I also find it makes me very angry and emotional.  Once this bottle is finished I won't take any more.


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## Beside_the_seaside

*Syd* - You say "_I do sometimes wonder if I'm mad pushing to have a baby when I'm mid-40s_". Substitute 'late-40s' and that's now the dilemma that goes round in my head too. For a million reasons I wish I was 10 years younger, but that's obviously not an option. My personal experience has been that the mere fact of getting older doesn't make the wanting any less, it doesn't make the absence of a child any easier, time doesn't make it easier, in fact it only seems to get worse. My Godmother broke down in tears to me aged in her 70's about never having had children (she had 10+ miscarriages) clearly the pain was still raw, even then. So I don't know what the answer is other to try to conceive, or if I have to stop, to know I tried (and tried again).

*Highlandgirl* - Very sadly, I've had to draw a line under any further egg collections. I was half-considering possibly investigating the ovarian rejuvenation, but it seems maddeningly far-fetched. (Even assuming I could scrape the money together, which is doubtful.) So personally I'm not taking DHEA, no point. However, I'm really glad that you're going for another IVF. You've set yourself a time limit of 3 months - fine. So, in your position, I'd probably take the dose which seems to have been used in all the research which is 25mg x 3 daily = 75mg daily. This is also what Rebecca Fett talks about in her book. I never had any side effects with DHEA, but of course you'd want to listen to your own body/judgement to see whether you think it's suiting you.

I'll probably have an FET of my embryos but don't know when. I wish I could be even a little bit optimistic for them, as perhaps it would help drag me back from the depths of despair (which is how I feel).


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## Syd72

You're right Seaside, it's. it really about my age I guess but the fact our lives are already so complicated and we are struggling for money right now.

My godmother is in her 80s and always wanted to be a mum but never met the right man. She's the most amazing woman, a reverend, does lots of charity stuff, runs playgroups and was a foster carer for many years but I know how desperately she wanted a child. I think it's just my habit to second guess myself.

Really hope you feel ready for your fet soon. Have you thought about trying any visualisation/self hypnosis stuff to try and make you feel more positive? Hope that doesn't sound too trite, I've just heard lots of people say it worked for them.


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## LuckyE

Syd - I, too, am stopping DHEA after this bottle is finished. It's causing havoc with my boobs. The last few months my moods have been terrible. This month mood okay though. But I just don't feel it's doing much this time round. 

also I read that if the opks don't pick up the LH surge, that means it's not a strong egg? Is this true? The last two months not been able to detect ovulation on the sticks. 

Does anyone know where to get an AMH test?


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## esj

Hi All.
Ive been off the radar a bit as we were in Athens with Serum and posting on here with my phone is a bit annoying.
Trip went well, I really like Serum. Very thorough and professional. Got two eggs which fertilised so waiting to see if they reach blasto stage. Both have some medication to take then we will go back in September for round two and transfer hopefully (they close in August). 
Sorry for lack of personals am catching up with work right now but just wanted to check in. Im thinking of you all 
xx


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## Syd72

Sounds great esj.

I've just posted on the Greece forum but someone on here may actually be able to help me.

I thought you only had a hysto if the scan at the consultation showed a potential issue but reading through the hysto thread it seems some ladies have it done as soon as they get to Greece, before they see Penny.  My visit to Athens is very complicated because of flights etc and it would actually be much easier if I can just have the hysto before the consultation.  Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.


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## esj

Hi Syd72 
Im not too familiar with hysto but if you want to avoid staying too long in Athens you could have it done before you go if you have somewhere in mind to do it. I ended up having an aquascan at same time as collection but all was OK. I am doing natural supported cycle in September so will have a scan here in London then just go there day before collection as will have to stay to do transfer.
Hydra was lovely, we only managed a day trip but if you have time to kill its a lovely place, easy to get to by boat and plenty of AirBNB places.
xx


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## LuckyE

ESJ - really glad it went well. Hope you get two blasts  . I did Hydra. It's very pretty. I am hoping to do the same July and September.   I have some eggs left. 

Syd - it's true you only have a hysto if the aquascan shows problems. I've only ever had a hysto once with serum and that was in 2014. All the other times no need when I've been checked out. I'm going for an acquasan but I ahve booked a late flight home the next day in case I need a hysto.


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## StrawberrySundae

Syd I was due to have a hysto on my first Serum round - Penny suggested I did, but decided against it in the end and had an aqua scan & scratch instead (did have a bfp but mc). I think some people have them just in case or more than once, but I couldn't face doing that unless absolutely necessary. I had one about 10 yrs ago that was ok, but that's probably irrelevant now!

ESJ congrats with your egg collection and good luck for sept!

Lucky E, you too - all the best in July & sept!

Besides I hope you have some time out and something serendipitous happens to help  

HighlandGirl wishing you luck on your final go too  

Strawberry xx


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## esj

Thanks Ladies!
I have a question- both eggs fertilised so they will update me tomorrow which is day 3. Serum prefer to freeze blastocysts but Create always froze on day 3. I am worried in case neither reach day 5. should I push to freeze tomorrow or follow their lead? Any advice welcome! Thank you xx


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## StrawberrySundae

I'd wait until they become blastocysts as your chances are then better - you could always have a natural collection in addition if you wanted another one to transfer x


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## estella

Just wishing you all the best of luck, it's such a rollercoaster of a journey. Thanks for your replies about serum, I have contacted them xx


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## esj

Thanks *StrawberrySundae* We got news this morning that just one made it to blasto stage but at least we have one and its Grade AA. Fingers crossed! x


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## StrawberrySundae

Yay good news esj! I got the same this last time, the other one arrested on day 4 for some reason, but I wouldn't have wanted to transfer it in that case   So I think it's best to wait. Nice to know you have one safely frozen x

I still feel a bit guilty for being on this thread as I'm not 45 yet, so I hope you other lovely ladies don't mind!


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## LuckyE

Well done ESJ! One down, a couple more to go for the next round! Would be good if you could get 3 to put back. 

Strawberry _ I don't mind you're a baby on the thread.


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## Syd72

Hi ladies, sorry for the radio silence.  I don't really have anything to say right now as I'm in limbo until we can discuss everything in a couple of weeks time, just trying to get through each day at the moment. I'm absolutely positive OH is going to say no to DE.  I've lost the plot with him a couple of times recently (mixture of him doing annoying things and my moods being all over the place with DHEA I think) and each time I've made comments along the lines of "on top of all the stress we're under right now I'm trying to come to terms with never being a mother" and he's made no effort to correct me on that.

LuckyE - I just happened to see your diary post (came up on the front page of recent posts).  I'm not sure if you saw my post as it was months ago but I did improve my AMH.  It wasn't bad to start with (for age) but went from 9.9 two years ago to 11.7 last October.  I put it down to reflexology but a couple of people on my other forum also improved their AMH and put it down to vitamin d supplements, which I also take in a high doses, so could be that.  Of course that doesn't help egg quality... How are you doing on persuading your OH to go to Serum?  How did court go?  

Strawberry, don't feel guilty, I joined before I turned 45 as well and everyone was so lovely and supportive. Thanks for your message about having a hysto, I contacted the clinic in the end and they said generally they do advise them just to get a good idea of what's going so I've just gone ahead and booked it.  I'll get into Athens mid afternoon on the Thursday, go straight to the hospital for the pre-op then to the clinic to pick up the apartment keys.  Hysto at 7.30 the following morning and I've been told to go straight to the clinic once I'm discharged for my consultation.  It's so different to the UK, any procedure under GA they won't let you leave the clinic alone and you have to sign to say you'll have someone with you for 24hrs.  Lucky they don't do that in Greece since I'm travelling alone.  I had a hysto a couple of years ago in the UK and all was fine but on reading the various threads on here it seems they're a bit more thorough in Greece.

Esj, great news that you have one at top grade.  I won't have time for Hydra this time but if I do get to go back in October for a DE cycle I've already found an airbnb apartment in Hydra that I want to stay in


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## Maggiephatcat

Hello ladies 

It's been really lovely for me, as a moderator to see what a wonderfully supportive and informative thread this has grown into.

When a thread reaches 100+ pages we start thinking about creating the next thread on, in this case it would be *Over* *45 With Own Eggs? - Part 2.*

Please continue to post here until I share the link to the new thread, which is likely to be tonight at some point.

Maggie xxx


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## Syd72

Lovely, thanks Maggie x


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## highlandgirl

Thanks Maggie


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## Blondie71

Syd good to see you're doing the serum hysto as I did the same and it was good to tick off the boxes so thoroughly, have you had any immune testing done as it's way cheaper through serum too, I think they do it in house now but I got basic immune testing plus thyroid for under €100 with Dr Economou few years back and was well worth it as flagged up some stuff I was able to treat


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## Blondie71

Be sure to ask for the implantation cuts when they do the hysto too 👍


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## Beside_the_seaside

*ESJ* - Congratulations on getting a top grade blastocyst, just marvellous, well done you! Really hoping that's the one that becomes your 'take home baby'.

*Syd* - I wish I could help, but sending you a hug and wishing you extra strength to ride out the tough time over the court case. Hope your Athens visit goes well. You say you predict that your OH is likely to refuse DE. Are you not going to discuss own egg in Serum though? Your AMH is so good I would've thought it was worth it?

*Maggiephatcat* - what a lovely thing to say about the thread (all thanks to *Highlandgirl's * initiative of course!)

I'm still struggling with exceptionally low mood. I fear it's a place we might all have visited at times, I just seem to be stuck in a pit of despair at the moment. I feel ludicrously ridiculous in hoping that my FET (whenever I get the courage) might work, but nonetheless I'm still trying to hope that it does because the alternative is ... well, it's too hard to contemplate.


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## LuckyE

Beside_the_sea - I know how you feel. But you will go back for that FET when you're ready and have the strength. 

Maggiephatcat - thanks for your kind comments. 

Syd - I saw that post of yours when I read through this thread. I am taking high dose Vit E so who knows? Am just praying at the bottom of the basket all the eggs aren't deformed. I agree with Beside_the_sea - a couple of oldies 44 with good AMH got their babies (Altai and Canitbe) Altai comes on here sometimes. She did 10 goes of IVF though but cheaply from what I recall... Canitbe got hers from Serum. If you've got the sperm and is it you that your insurance pays for your IVF? I'd go for it! (But then I know some who have given up also with High AMH so everyone's different) 

Court was okay - thanks for asking but he's back again next month as they didnt' get the docs. So disorganised! As  a result I pounced and OH and I are going next week.  We have decided to follow his NHS route and my Serum route but he said he's going to Athens  "in straight jacket" although he seems pretty excited about all the Sight seeing we're going to do. TBH I, too, am looking forward to a holiday with OH to get away from the court stuff. When will you be there?

Hope everyone else is okay.


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## Maggiephatcat

As promised, ladies, please find below the link to your new home: Over 45 With Own Eggs? Part 2  

http://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=373633.0

Love and hugs to all  Maggie xxx


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