# Our new debate topic "c-loose women"



## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Thought it may be a good idea to start a "loose women" style thread, where when it's is quiet,
or anytime at all us ladies can get on here and debate in a friendly fashion about different topics. 
Hope this is ok with you Rosie, if you give us the all clear, as I think its a welcomed idea our end, 
we can start... Just waiting for the wink 

Maybe first topic could be:

*"Can you really have a platonic relationship with the opposite sex?"*


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Ohh. Love it!!! Im gonna give this one some thought. My first reaction was no way! But then I thought about all the friends of my DH who I am friends with and I definately wouldnt. They are firmly platonic. That said whenever I had male friends independent of my DH although the relationship was platonic the relationship only ever started because of an underlying sexual tension. 
OK so will get back with my argument after more thought.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Love it - great idea Fi.

My answer would most definitely be yes.  One of my closest friends is a bloke and there is no underlying anything there at all.

That said..........not sure how I would react if DH suddenly aquired a best new girl-friend!  Hypocricical I know !!

Nix


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Davis, hows about the other way though, could there not be hidden feelings their end? That we don't realise?
Totally agree Nix, I dont think I'd stomach it very well if mine got a new female friend 
either, but I think if you met your partner or vice versa with the "friends" already in their life, its different..
I think nine times out of ten there's feelings one way, but they may be hidden due to fear of loosing what they have..


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

ohh liking this FI welldone  

right as for the topic in hand yes i do think you can have opposite sex friends + it not interfere with a plutonic relationship, i mean we are not attracted to every man we see are we, although i can understand that thing of the more you know them + the closer you are with your friendship lines could get a little bit blurred when they see friendly concern as something else + take it the wrong way, oo sorry went off on one there  

i dont think it would bother me if DP got a female friend, i wouldnt stop him as i feel it works both ways i wouldnt like it if he moaned about my friends

as long as the lines of your friendship are marked clearly in the sand they aint no harm

anyhow what about same sex friends  do you not think they are the same ?? there is nothing to say one of your girl friends wouldnt come onto you is there hhmmmmm

xxx


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Have really pushed my luck now and asked Rosie if we could possibly have a themed cl-oose women page of topics so we 
can enter and debate add-hock so to speak (like they have for big brother for example) Oooh I hope I'm not being too
cheeky.
Just think its somewhere stimulating to put our minds, and have the "craic"..... and do one of the things women do best  

I think you hit the nail on the head Cleg,we don't fancy every memeber of the opposite sex we see, and the blurring of the lines 
is often an issue, 
I had a friendship for 20 yrs with a male, who came to our house, and was like a big brother/good mate, for yrs he'd
scoff if anybody said anything or made innuendos and say the "no way would I " thing, but when I left my x husband,( I had known this bloke 15yrs at this point, he's been on hols with us in groups and everything.)
All of a suden, he came to me and poured his heart out saying he'd been in love with me for yrs and had always stayed close as he knew my marriage wasnt good and had wanted to be the wind beneath my wings and just always hoped....and how hard he'd found it to stand by me for so long with these feelings, he called me his forbidden fruit, anyway without going too far into it , I was truly shocked, in a million yrs I'd never have guessed.. needless to say it put a massive strain on friendship, and I was no way now or ever gonna reciprocate what he felt. I felt awful, he has dealt with it now,especially since my DH has been in my life, I think he has had to accept, I'm happy now and my DH is the wind beneath my wings. Saying that theres an animosity between him and my DH, a silent tolerance.....But I'd never have believed any of this if some one had put it to me when I 
believed our friendship to be purely platonic.. so I dunno!! ? Do I ned to say our friendship has never been quite the same since!

Oh same sex friend issue Cleg thats a good one.... what dya reckon ladies? I'll need to think on that one.................


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## Shooting star (Apr 12, 2007)

Yes, great idea this debating thing Fi - well done

Not got much time so my quick thought is that in my experience it is often easier for a woman to maintain a pleutonic relationship that a man. In a sexual sense I think women are more aware of and better able to deal with their emotions eg keep the friendship pleutonic if they want to. I think men are more easily overcome with hormones. Just had a thought. This may not apply when the woman is on clomid - then anything could happen, I have more chance of flying to the moon than keeping a grip on my emotions!

Off to BBQ, back on here tomorrow to see how the debate is going.

Thanks Fi

SS


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Nix - I bet your male friend would be in like flynn if your DH wasnt around!

My DH doesnt have female friends because in his own words 'men cant have friends of the opposite sex without wanting to sleep with them'. However he does have female friends who are in relationships with either his mates or who are ex's of his mates and are now in relationships. For everyone of these girls he either claims that they fancy him (or use to) or that he quite fancies them. 
As for me I have had guys I work with who are real mates before. On a whole however when I was single I either ended up snogging my male friends or hearing about how they fancied me at some point.
I think there is always a sexual tension between a man and a woman, whether or not they both are aware of this is another thing.

Now Cleg as to relationships with the same sex then a definate YES. I dont for a moment think that any of my girlfriends fancy me although we often talk about how we will all give up men one day and drink from the hairy cup.


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

sorry did i plant an image of one of your girlfriends coming onto you   just saying why shouldnt we treat our female friends the same as male  hhhmmmm you never know


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

No men are predators!! Women are communal! They cant be treated the same way.


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

phoaww some of the women i know are rather scary    i think some women are a lot more predatory than you think + they could be better at hiding it than men + manipulate the situation a little easier than men too


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

True I've met some viscous and manipulative women in my time as well but generally I think men are sexually more predative. Still one of things that has always annoyed me is societies attitude that it is OK for men to have sexual urges but not women. You know the story: a man can sleep around and he is sowing seeds but if a woman dos it she is a tramp.


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## Shooting star (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi everyone

I am not sure if this is really a topic for debate but when speaking to con today she said female sperm (so to speak) can tolerate acidity much better than male. As clomid increases the acidity of the servical mucus, is it more likely that clomid chicks will have girls?

Just a thought!

SS


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## cleg (Jun 27, 2006)

phoaw what a theory SS + if anyone would like to explain that to me in simple terms fore away


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

SS I am really confused. Please explain - be graphic we dont mind. Are you saying that X chromosomes (females have 2 X's) are able to survive acidic conditions more than Y chromosomes (male is X and Y) and that clomid gives women acidic cm so that the Y chromosomes are killed off and we are therefore more likely to have girls because they will have 2 X chromosomes. Whew!

Oh goody, I want a girl so I can dress her up in beautiful little dresses just like my own doll! Oh and I want to brush her lovely hair in the morning and play dress-ups with her and have tea parties with teddy!  

I have also read that the more times a man ejaculates the more likely he is to have a boy. This is why so many of us can be traced back to Ghangus Kan because he raped and pillaged his way across continents and the obviously was doing alot of ejaculation so the women where having males and therefore more likely to pass more of his genes on. Its a natural selection thingy to ensure that the dominant male gets more of his gene pool out there. It also explains why alot of couple have boys as a first born and girls as a second born. Or so the story goes...


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Think I've heard something like this before about girls.  If I had a choice I would love a little girl, but beggars can't be choosers can they!

So, it's looking like the general concensus is that platonic relationships can and do exist, but quite often there are stronger feelings one side !??!


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Yes - so technically platonic relationships between the opposite sexes cant exist    Im just so argumentative!!


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Nope.  Just not having it.  I can honestly say that I have no secret yearnings for my friend and am sure he doesn't for me either - we're just mates.  It'd be like incest or something....eeeewwwwww.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Nix - is he in a relationship? Did you meet when you were single? If he is in a relationship does his partner like you? Bet you he secretly fancies you or fancied you at one stage (the underlying sexual tension I mentioned earlier).


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

wow i like this good idea fi,

i have a male friend and i met him around 10 years ago. my dh is the only person who dosnt question my friendship with him. its other pepole who think opesets cant be friends. well you all know my dh works away and my male friend comes round for a drink when dh isnt here. i know there is no attraction between us he is like a bloody woman.

i think it all comes down to trust and im not   what pepole think. me dh and my male friend know nothing is going on. some pepole are very small minded.

my male friend has now got a dp it took a very long time for her to get used to me but we were friends a long time before she came along.

my dh is very good friends with my bf. i trust them both. cos if its going to happen it will happen wether i worry or not. so i say be friends with who ever you like and if pepole dont like it then tell them to get stuffed.


ohh i like it on here.lol


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Kelli, I'm with you on that one!  if you and your friend and partners are happy and comfortable with the situation then to hell with what anyone else might think !

Ba - we met when we both had partners - he was/is friends with my BIL.  Nope, no feelings there at all.  We are quite similar and can rely on each other to tell it like it is...


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Like everything I think it depends on the situation. My bf for about 10 years was male, we were both single when we met and were inseprable. nothing there for either of us. Then we both kept drifting in and out of relationships as you do when you grow up, and one ex of mine said he couldnt deal with how close me and bf was, so I had to pick him or BF, There was no one I was going to loose my BF of10 years for someone I had only been going out with about 6months, and yold him that I wouldn't choose, he either trusted me or he didn't. And turns out he didn't . Then the night after that I ws talking to BF and he said he couldn'y do it any more, he loved me and wanted to be with me,and I was like nooooooo your my BF way too weird. And he said if we couldn't be together he  couldn't be friends with me anh I have never seen him again to this day. 
Bloody hell that was a waffle


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i think some times male friends can have underlying feelings (but not always)

did you ever wonder what could of been marj?


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Davis I have to go with you on your theory, ... I would have sworn positively blind that mine didnt have a fancy for me in any way, and he would have denied it proffusely too, on hindsight, I was so wrong... So ladies surely theres a posibility that you just may have rose tinted specks on ... or maybe I'm wrong and your friendship is the exception to the rule. 

my friend and me were just like how you described your friendship
1) my DH trusted him it was everyone else who questioned it (and I used to think stuff them too)
2)I would spend a lot of time with him without my X DH of the time.
3) He was very much like a woman, in his thinking,  and to me the big bro I'd never had
4) HE had relationships too,but said once he confessed to me that they simply filled the void?
And this frioendship went on for 15yrs without me guessing anything at all

So sorry ladies at mo, I'm just not convinced (though I admit I may be biased due to my experience, its just that I was as sure as you's...


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

A lot of the time Kel, I still miss him and that was 5 years ago. Heard he has had a little girl and wish I could have been there for that, but I think for any male to be tha tclose and spend that much time with you, there has got to be very very strong feelings. Sometimes I might just be because that SEEMS like the next obvious step. Oh have thought of exception, my best male friend now, but he has been with his boyfriend for 10 years so realllyyyyy no  worries there


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

mmmm im not so sure it will make me think though next time im alone with him.

i think i would die on the spot if he said he wanted me.lol

i used to think he was gay till he got a female dp.lol


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Yeah we can rule out the gay ones.. we can safetly say I think....


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Hmmmmmmm - maybe my BF is gay    

Nope, think can safely say he is straight.........who knows, maybe we'll run off together one day - a psychic did tell me years ago that I would be involved in a love triangle...........


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Anyone got an idea for a new debate?


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Yep  - everyone of my 'just mates' have turned out to fancy me (that sounds vain buts its not). The only exceptions have had issues with their partners about seeing me. It all just got too hard so I actually decided that it was easier to be friends with women only. Except gay friends. And one evening a GF and I tried to turn our gay BF straight. It was hillarious watching him scream in terror as the two of us lap danced for him (it wasnt very good dancing its actually very hard to do well). He is a girlfriend in every sense of the word including getting drunk and flirting with my DH!

I also have gay female friends. One in particular I have been friends with for 10 or more years. Although we are just great friends I understand that there is an underlying sexual tension there just as their would be with a male. 

Fi - just saw your post. Will give it some thought


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

OK thought of a new topic (inspired by Cat).

Should we celebrate Christmas and teach our children to believe in Santa Claus?


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

YES YES AND YES.   For even daring to maybe we suggest that we shouldn't  

I know in this day and age its more about the commercial aspect of it and many children today would only say it's about Santa, but for me it's the magic of it all, the being close to the ones you love. in a world were technology is taken over the true art of communication, it is at least one day were everone can be toether and celebrate that.

I am just like Cat, on the countdown already


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Come on - Xmas is just an economic necessity, stimulating the economy and fooling the masses into believing that its all alright in the middle of winter (traditionally a western idea so we will presume its origins in EU). 
Its commercialism echo's the current 'bling' concept and conspicioius consumption - it is not only bad for the environment (who recycles the mountains of plastic and paper we throw away each year) but also cripples alot of families who cannot afford to spend, spend, spend. 
Suicide rates sky rocket at Christmas as alot of families cant afford it, people realise that they are all alone and have to face another day, another year on their own with no presents or love. 
Domestic violence and divorce rates increase as families get together for mass consumption of alcohol. Let alone the increase in child abuse that occurs.

But lets take it down a notch and look at the notion that its for children.
Well I for one was not sure whether my DS would appreciate me lying to him about Santa Claus. I am someoe who believes in a strict regard for truth and the consquences that go with it. By lying to my child and children all over are we saying that they cannot believe a word we say. Sure we understand the difference but a child believes adults and then one day will realise that it was just a massive lie. They will surely question what else is untrue that adults tell you - such as drugs are harmful. 
And most Chrismas morning are full of children unwrapping present after present. We only buy DS 1 present each year and he still ends-up with a mountain of gifts. But surely it is better to teach a child to give than receive. To teach them about humanity. Rather than eating until they burst maybe they should be going without food to understand the daily pains that many other children and people suffer in the fight for food and water.
Oh I could just go on about this one for ages...


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## angelus (May 17, 2007)

We live in a world that is ever changing and rapidly progressing with new theories, technologies and life styles. There is one thing that remains constant ..Christmas. Of course it is heavily commercialised but Christmas is what your family make it. 
In todays world, children grow up far quicker than we ever did. Their expectations are higher. The demands on them are higher and their innocence goes far sooner than the governments statistics!
Ive brought my DD up with the knowledge that Santa is real and to see her face when she gets her special gift from him is pure magic. We don't over indulge, but have luxuries that we would'nt have during the year.
Now she is 9 she will probably start to question Santa, but that childhood knowledge that there is a lovely jolly man who give presents to all the children in the world and never lets anyone down is even more important now than ever. 
No one ever became mentally unstable as an adult because they found out Santa was not real as a kid.

My DD knows that the fairys and angels are always around, watching and protecting. So if we don't bring them up with the Santa story, we would have to stop all these kind of childhood beliefs. And quite simply i think kids are not kids for very long and the longer we can shield them from the horror of this world and make them believe there are nice things to look forward to in life the better.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm with Cat and Maj on this one.  

I love Christmas and simply cannot understand the people who don't!  As far as I'm concerned it's what you make it - if you don't want to, or have the money to, spend and over-indulge each year then don't.  I believe that Christmas is about spending with the people you love and putting a smile on their faces.  Personally, Christmas is the only time of year that DH and I take take out and stay at my mums and I wouldn't miss that for the world - I can only hope that when/if I have children of my own that I can make it as special as my mum as always did and still does at age 31!) for me!!

I also agree with Angelus that I have never heard of an adult complaining of being mentally scarred from being "lied" to about father christmas - it's all part of the magic of being a kid.......santa, tooth fairy, etc....

Christmas has always been my favourite time of year and I hope that never changes!

Nix.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Girls you do know that I am arguing with you all for the sake of it. It would be boring if we all just agreed with each other in our debate topic.   So here goes:

Christmas is a relatively new idea steeped more in the idea of consumerism than tradition. Santa Claus and the whole idea of the north pole was thought up by advertising executives to sell coca cola. The traditional cultural notions of Christmas have been wiped out by commercialism such as St Nicholas and Yule for winter solstice. Most people today wouldnt understand the difference between these traditional ideas and Father Christmas/Santa Claus. Yule is simply the chocolate logs you buy from the shop at Christmas time not a pagan Scandinavian tradition to celebrate the solstice. 

I could lie to my DS about many things. I could tell him that he is half lizard and he would believe me but then I would be called cruel. Lie about Santa, tooth fairies, angels and its OK! I do lie to him and tell him that Santa exists and I do this so that he is not different to his friends. But the whole notion is kinda creepy. I tell him that monsters dont exist and that nothing is in his bedroom but then once a year an old man will creep into his bedroom when he sleeps....creepy! 

I remember when I found out that Santa didnt exist. Do you? It made an impact. The lie was exposed and from that point onwards I didnt believe in other things (ie tooth fairy). It was and is contradictory, children shouldnt tell fibs but adults can. And as for trauma, well my niece is absolutely terrified of Father Christmas. She is not allowed to go sit on strange mens laps and eat sweets, but then is forced to sit on the lap of an old man with a big red nose and eat his sweets. She gets really upset when she see's Santa and always has.

Oh if only Christmas was what you made it. Its not however. It is expectation upon expectation. And this starts very early in the year - around October - so its months of expectation. Putting a smile on a loved ones face surely isnt watching them cook all day and bury themselves in debt for one day of the year. Surely its about consistently loving and supporting them over the whole year. Im all for getting together with the ones you love and eating and drinking but I dont want to be told when to do it and called 'scrooge' if I dont buy what the ad man tells me. After all 'scrooge' is hardly very Christian is it and kinda misses the whole point!


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

xmas is mostly about the money and technology that is true.

but my inlaws are very religious my dd is at a Catholic school and we take her to church every Sunday xmas is what you make it. you can keep the true meaning if it you want to. we still go to mass xmas day and my dd loves it.
i wasn't brought up like that but thats what my dh wants for our dd. if you asked her about xmas she would tell you its about Jesus and not toys.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Davis - why isn't there a stirring icon on here  

Ok, so I hear you about how you should get together and appreciate your family and friends throughout the year rather than just a couple of days, but - we don't!  People are just too busy to sit back and take stock during the year, so 25/26th December is the time that most of us set aside to do it - then and the occassional Sunday lunch. 

I also think that as you grow up your childhood Christmas's (good or bad!) are often the strongest memories you have of being a child and that anything that we as adults can do do make the memories happy ones should be encouraged!

However........do kinda agree that the notion of an old guy with a beard creeping into bedrooms one night a year is a bit creepy in this day and age !!!!!!

Nix.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Nix - I know its naughty but someone has to do it so I just take the opposite view on each topic  

I have no problem with Christmas being about the birth of Jesus and a religious ritual. Every religion has the right to celebrate their own beliefs in their own way but the Christ of the Gospels was an advocate of the poor and he actively scorned greed, money and the rich. Remember the whole knocking over of the tables at the temple. Well thats the same as our current Christmas celebration in my eyes. The crass commercialisation of Christmas today makes a mockery Christian belief and every year you hear ministers reminding parishioners to put the 'Christ' back into Christmas. 
If I really wanted to be arguementative (me??) then I would say that Christmas also has no place in todays society as it secularises people of different faiths. Hence alot of the government bodies writing Xmas or Seasons Greetings rather than forcing the Christian religion on people who may be Muslim, Hindu etc.

But I agree with Nix, I have sone great memories of Christmas. Drunken fighting, crap presents ahhh lol. No it is very exciting for kids and I remember not being able to sleep with excitement but that was because of the presents I was going to get and the idea of a party of sorts and I also felt that way before my birthday and before going on holiday.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Davis - I still can't sleep on christmas eve and birthday eve's


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Nix - you big kid!


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Oh definitely and proud of it too


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

OK I'm gonna split my opinion into two. (Ooh Davis, i bet you had the biggest mischievous grin on your face when you pressed the 
reply button on this one! you little wind up merchant you   )

Should we celebrate Christmas?
When relatives and friends children were sat on the materialistic conveyor belt, I made sure my girls stayed grounded.
When others kid's were being overloaded with  bikes + the latest electronic games + god knows what else to be opened and slung on the "OK whats next pile", I kept my girls presents to what I felt was a very balanced perspective.Also ensuring they understood and took part in the act of giving.On hindsight I wish I'd swung a bit more with my dad's views, that they should be given a voucher to send to a charity in place of a present,enlightening them on the act of the value of this gift. 

I wouldn't swap the magic in our home as Christmas approached for the world, from the nativity plays displaying the 
innocence of a child, Even the magic it inspired in me sneaking out the back on Christmas eve to ring the bell (that would to my children's ears be Santa nearing in his sleigh). The apprehensiveness of their excitement Christmas morning.and all the magic that surrounds that. I believe in honesty too, but where do we draw the line, do we burst their bubble with every fiction book we read to them? do we expose them to a dismal heart while all the other children are running round with the magic and excitement of Christmas in their world and eyes? I think take away the materialistic shallow market it has become and yes Christmas can be a time for caring and sharing., this world needs a little bit of magic.. just don't insist our kids wear the rose tinted spectacles that say, "take take take, other people don't matter, its about what you can get in this world" Remind them of how others live and what really matters and never to value themselves for what they have but for who they are......

Should we teach our children to believe in Santa? Oh yes most def, it all contributes to enhancing their imaginations,and it's a white
lie I think they'll always thank us for as long as you don't make my error, my daughter came home from school saying she had gotten in a fight, as someone had laughed at her for believing in Santa, My fiesty daughter, ended up in a brawl... I thought then and there that her loyalty to Santa was quite awesome, but decided with slight shame that I'd better sit her down now and gently break it to her that it's all been an illusion....reason being.... she was in Secondary school.......oops!! 
Angelus I so agree with your stance, but can I disagree with one bit "No one ever became mentally unstable as an adult because they found out Santa was not real as a kid." ............ Sssh! I think Cat would be devastated and it could just send her over the edge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many days til Christmas Cat??


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i dont agree with the santa thing. all year round we tell kids dont talk to strangers if a strander is in the house tell some 1 but for 1 night a year is ok to let a strange man with a beard in your room just cos he has pressies.

but we all still go along with the santa thing.

i think my dd will cotten to the truth this year and who knows where i will hide all her stuff. cos no dowbt she will start to look.lol


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

OK thought of another 'debate' topic but this is one that I strongly believe in so I may just rant instead. Now I know for a fact that this is gonna upset some of you but here goes:

'couples who get married and dont invite children are so misguided and missing one of the most intregal parts of marriage'. 

For me marriage is a celebration of love and commitment and there is no greater expression of that love then a child. As the song goes 'Love and marriage goes together like a baby and a carriage'. So why oh why do I keep getting invited to weddings that say no children! Why because the little princess's dont want children to get in the way of the event that has become western wedding. Most other cultures welcome children to weddings - France, Italy, India, S-E Asia, Africa but not the UK, Australia, America? They are missing the point when its more about table seating and cost per head then celebrating love and a future together that usually involves having children! And for me there would be nothing better than a gathering of friends and family to celebrate love. Children just have to be there. So it goes without saying that they were at my wedding even though we didnt have any and I never for a moment thought of not inviting children as they are part of my family and friends and I love them all for it. 

Its not about perfection (the perfect day) its about love. On receiving my last 2 child free wedding invitations I rang and confirmed that it was no kids and then said 'I hope you wont mind if I dont attend then' and do you know what - they did mind!! So I have to say 'its your day - I have to respect that' but they dont respect my decision NOT to attend. I have been forced to drag my child/baby to a wedding in the country where all my family was attending then find a babysitter who I didnt know to look after them and run between the venue and babysitter, thereby missing half the wedding and not drinking or enjoying myself. I have a wedding next weekend where DS is invited for 20mins!! So I am going to miss the ceremony, miss the speeches, miss the food and then join the wedding only after I have put him to bed at 8pm. But they actually said 'we would be very upset and offended if you were unable to make it because of DS'. Well I am offended that I have to buy a new outfit, a present, pay for a hotel room, hire a hat and tails for a bl**dy wedding that I am gonna miss!! And that poor DS can only watch from the sidelines.
But the big thing about these 'no children' weddings is that they usually have children at them except those children are page boys/girls. So are called the 'bridal party'. So actually its not 'no children' just 'no children except the ones that will make my dress look good'. If its no kiuds it should be no kids FULL STOP!

But I will get the last laugh - I cant wait to see their faces when they have children and it happens to them!! Ahhh, feel a bit better after my rant.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Having no children (yet - hopefully!!) it's hard for me to get too passionate about this one, but I do feel that children make a wedding.  I think it's lovely to see kids all dressed up and playing at a wedding, but then I also think it is the bride & grooms prerogative to invite, or not invite, who they want.  HOWEVER....if you choose to decline an invitation on the grounds that your child is not invited then that is your prerogative and should be respected!  

I think is becoming quite common now for invites to be "no kids" for weddings - I received a few calls before my wedding from people saying they might not be able to make it cos of the kids and were shocked when I said that of course the kids could come too.  BUT........quite a few couples said they would prefer to attend without their children anyway so they could relax and enjoy the day with a few drinks...

Nix.


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

davis i agree with you totally on this one.

if my dd wasn't invited then i wouldn't go. weddings are a celebration of love life and all that gos with it and kids are part of that package.

the bride doesn't want kids there cos she doesn't want them getting the attention and thats selfish.


well said davis good point


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I agree with your "rantings"    in theory.... I was fortunate enough not to have been invited to any Weddings, without children. I too believe personally that it's lovely to have children running round, dressed  up really pretty and I personally wouldn't contemplate refusing children.... but, I also agree, that people have the right of choice to decide how they want their big day, and who they want to invite, for whatever their reasons are. Just as you have the right to accept or decline the invite.
If they have a problem with that, then then both your reaction and their's is a consequence to their decision, and 
therefore their "stuff" to deal with if they are offended.
Pre-children couples, probably in their naivity lack the knowledge of the kind of maternal and family feeling you understand as a mother with family, therefore not understanding why you may be perturbed.
I would also take into consideration myself, that the days of children being necessarily well behaved, has long gone in the society we know today in many cases (not all, before you bite my head off ladies). And with some of the behaviours children display today in this world where discipline is seen as a crime (another debate?) I can maybe open my mind towards understand the apprehension of the naive bride, who does not yet know the maternal feelings and the joy the presence of children can bring. Like you say they'll one day maybe receive a "no children invite" and then understand where your coming from.. but I would also respect their decision, on a day that is "theirs"
And I wonder, if were honest with ourselves, how many of us, who are mothers would have felt so strongly before having children ourselves? ?


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Fi - Yes its their day and they can do what every they want as long as they respect my decision not to attend. But like I said - and this has been with family - they dont respect that but take offence and then you have the whole family fighting crap. 
My cousin is getting married in Australia and its no kids - and by that she means my sisters 16 and 12 year olds. But she has a 1 year old who is in the bridal party and my other cousins 2 year old is also in the bridal party. And the wedding is 4 hours out of Perth so my sister cant even leave them at home for the night! 
Next weekend every family member will be at this wedding in the country including a bridal party consisting of a 2yr, 3yr, 4yr, 5yr old BUT my 2yr old (their cousin) is not allowed to attend! Fair enough they have hired a babysitter for him and a couple of breast fed babies for the day but she is old and doesnt speak english so he wont be having any of that. The day is gonna be so stressful for me. I think I may just take him to the wedding and be asked to leave!!


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## Shooting star (Apr 12, 2007)

Sorry, back to the wedding debate. I agree with you Davis. My husband and I are both primary school teachers and had been teaching for 1 year when we decided to get married. I had 4/5 year olds and he had 8/9 year olds and they were so excited. Lots asked if they could come. Initially i was not keen - we are talking 60 children at the church service! However we decided we would and went the whole hog. We sent personal invites to every child in our classes (and for an accompanying adult!) We go to a Baptist church with two balconies at the side. The children filled both balconies and were able to look down and have a fantastic view of the service. We gave each child/parent a party popper at the start of the service which they took into the balconies with them. When the minister pronounced us man and wife they all let them off and streamers fell from the sky! The kids loved it and it was truley fantastic. When I look back at it and the photos it was a definate highlight. I am sure this would not be everyones cup of tea but it was great for us. Six years on we still get parents and children coming to talk to us about it and one of the photos is still up at the school, under special events!

SS


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## Sharry (May 13, 2007)

Oh dear!! I seem to be the odd one out, when we got married it was no children.  If somebody could not come becasue of that I understood but they also had to understand that was what we wanted. But I must say none of our close friends had children so maybe that helped our decision, the kids in question were DH little cousins.

I feel that weddings can be long and in the case of my family very drunken days and did not feel it was fair on the kids or other guest to subject them to crying and moaning kids.... god you must be thinking and she wants a baby  .  

My brother recently got married and kids where invited and I had one of my other brothers twin daughters for the service ( 5 months old), as soon as the cermony started so did she and her sister so we ended up having to leave the ceremony as we did not want to spoil it for anybody else and in the end did not see my brother getting married which was a shame.

At the end of the day it is personal preference but it is unfair of people not invite kids and then get miffed if the parents decline the invitation because of it.

Please dont think bad of me, it was over 11 years ago and things change. 
Sharry


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## Shooting star (Apr 12, 2007)

Sharry

Don't worry, no one will think bad of you. Everyone has different opinions and experiences and we can all respect that. You must have thought I was nuts having 60 there!

SS


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

OOOHH WEDDING DEBATES,

    Well i agree it is lovely to have children running round at a wedding but i only had children at my night do as our friends have lots of kids and we simply couldnt afford all the meals so we had to cut back,I had my goddaughter there as flowergirl and a couple of newborns as there parents didnt want to leave them (and i wouldnt expect them to) and that was it untill the disco at night when parents went to get changed and bring the kids back with them.It was still nice to av them running around at night though.The parents were fine though,we know 1 couple with 4 boys and it was them who insisted they would only bring them 2 the night do.
But basically i only limited it for money reasons otherwise i love having kids around and wouldnt missit 4 the world.xx


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

Yeah i agree that babys are probably better off at home,the newborns that were at my wedding got picked up by there grandparents after a while.x


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## Shooting star (Apr 12, 2007)

I think we may need a new topic - where is Fi when you need her!

SS


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Ok prob not the best of topics but I do remeber loose women having good old debate about it one day

"Are fat men attractive? or do you prefer lean and muscular"
or
"Do men like a coat hanger on their arm or pefer a soft and cuddly in the bed"
or
Do looks really matter?​
cheers SS


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

my dh has got a bit of muscle now but he never when we met. yum yum 
i do think looks matter i couldn't walk down the street with a fat bald fella.lol

orr have sex with 1 even a paper bag wouldn't hide the fact he was a minnger.

i think men these days are all about looks mine spends more time in the mirror than me.

if you look around your area's there are a lot of pritey boys with pritey girls on there arm.

I'm glad I'm married i couldn't cope with the up keep of prity boy.lol

yes looks matter thats what attracted all of us to our dh/dps in the first place.

kel


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Personally I'd rather snuggle up to a man who is soft and warm, my DH has plenty of muscle and is by far the strongest man I've ever known, which makes me feel safe and feminine, but he also is a few stone overweight. The only issue I have with that is "health" I want him to live forever and a half. (well both of us to a ripe old age). But I absolutely love every ounce of him, it's who he is and what makes him "him"... Just as he accepts me for me..
I think society has a tendency towards shallowness.. Have you ever seen what may look like a beautiful specimin of a woman,for example on a tv debate show... say she's a right b*tch, as she goes on she becomes physically ugly before your eyes,I truly believe the real beauty is on the inside.. saying that you obviously need to find your partner attractive, but being attractive to you not the nation is what matters.
I think sadly many men do like a coat hanger on their arm ,but they really want warm and cuddly, its all about the male competing and the female being the prize on their arm, to give them "man" cred... "see what I can catch!"
But thankfully men and women aren't all like that. Society dictates so many pressures to us through the media, that there is a trend to compete on a shallow level, priorities have changed for the generations as they evolve. And sadly looks have become too big a priority..


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i agree with what you are saying but we must be atracted to our other half first love comes after not before.

most men these days are pigs and all they want is a trophy to flash off and brag about to there mates.

stick to what you know girls.
xxxxxxxx


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

i am 5ft 10" and a few stone over weight, DP is 5ft 7" and a lanky thing, not normally my type but eyes to fall into  . Personally I think people look different when you get to hen know them, beautiful people turn ugly if they have horrid personality and vice versa, i tend to fall for the person when something shines through. Corny i know but thats me


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Ooh Maj I imagined you to be a little squidge of a thing, got that bloody wrong didn't I lol   Says one who's even taller than you


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Fi, we shall just stick with your imaginaton then i like the sound of it


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i would be a miget then next to you to all 5ft 3 of me.lol


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## angelus (May 17, 2007)

Well im 5ft exactly so beat that!


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Im 5ft 10" - same as Em.

My DH has a very narcastitic side to him. I am not sure if all men do but certainly all the ones that I end-up with do (but I have terrible taste in men because I like bad boys).
He is a very attractive guy in a traditionally handsome way. Dare I say it but he could have been a model. I honestly think that he would like a coat hanger on his arm but more of a pamerla anderson than liz hurley. Yep he's that shallow sometimes. That said he married me so maybe its just all front - like alot of what he says and does?

Personally I like a man who is comfortable in his own skin - fat or skinny, tall or short it doesnt matter. Jack Nicholson is old and fat but he is attractive. Russel Brand is skinny but he is sexy. You get what I mean. But I dont think many men think the same way. 

Women are used as status symbols. We exploit our sex and as such devalue our position in society (Im am a total feminist so dont get me started). Alot of men have such a bad opinion of women they would be happy to simply live with the envy of other men at the expense of real love. That is they think so little of women and dont value them at all so they simply want someone who looks good and that other men want as this gives them a sense of power over the people that matter most to them - men. Not all men do this, there are men who love and respect women and treat them as equals.

But when I was younger I was not exactly the most mature or nice girl - think the movie 'Heathers'. I would never have gone out with guys unless they were very attractive. There were plenty of great guys but they became 'friends' and the bad boys became lovers. I dated men who were not very nice at all. Who treated me very badly. But who were very attractive and 'wanted' by other girls. So I did just what alot of men do. The only difference is that I grew-up and stopped, men dont.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm about 5'1" in my socks and my DH is 6'2" !

Like Ba I've always gone for the bad boy who was good looking and that the other girls fancied, but I would generally end up getting hurt.  DH was a bad boy when I met him and we definitely went through some bad patches, but he has grown up and changed alot and so have I.  He's also put on a bit of weight as he's got older (hmmm, so have I !!), but I love him so he could balloon up or shrink down and I would still love him the same.    

I think attractiveness is totally down to personal preference and one persons idea of what is attractive would be completely different to the next person!  

Ba - is was concerning myself for thinking that Russell Brand was VERY sexy in an odd way!  Glad I;m not the only one then !!

Nix.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Nix - oh he is so bad you just know he rocks in bed!


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Ba - yup, that was my assessment of him too


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

OK this is not a debate its just silliness. You know that game where you take the name of your first pet and your mothers maiden name and that gives you your porn star name well mine is:

[fly]SOXY MCDONALD[/fly]

Whats yours?


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

May I introduce ................. Weeble Darnell


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Weeble Darnell   cant stop laughing! I have never met a pet called Weeble! lol


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

I used to have all the weeble toys (did you have them in Australia ?!?!) when I was a kid and the cat used to play with them - the name just stuck!  My mum was mortified when we used to take her to the vet and they would call out  Weeble and our surname


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

lucky gorton

how boring would i sound   


nix your is funny


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Kelli - yours sounds more like a james bond woman !!


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

see not to funny not as funny as yours 

i wouldnt sell many films with that name


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

Mmmmmm james bond woman i like


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

you can join me cat on the James bond theme


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I have no idea what a Weeble is!! But the name just brings a smile to my face (others include Bolivia and Zanzibar). 
If it was a James Bond movie 'Weeble darnell' would be a badie that gets killed off vicously - sorry Nix.

'Lucky Gorton' would be a Chinese mistress (think lucy lou in charlies angels) and 'Tigger Nield' would be a matrial arts expert like Uma Therman in Kill Bill.

As for 'Soxy McDonald' I just think a dumb bimbo but I do keep getting flashes of the girl (Telula) in Bugsy Malone!


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

My sides are aching


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

ZELDA DOOLIN
what a flop! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...................


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Sam Butler, just reminds me of my cousin


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## angelus (May 17, 2007)

nipper scargill x


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

open relashonship would you do it. Orr have you done it?





I'm not sure how i feel on this 1


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Have never done it (well, not intentionally anyways!) and nor would I.  There is no way I could ever be happy knowing that my husband was being intimate (in any way) with another woman and I could have no respect for him if he found it OK for me with another guy.

To me it's just wrong and totally not what a marriage/relationship is all about which (in my opinion) is love, trust, respect and sharing your life with one other person.


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

No i dont agree with this 1 either,ive never done it and never would,we once got asked for a 3sum i was mortified.x


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i wouldn't do ether but we have friends who are quit happy doing it as long as the other 1 comes home at night.

what ever floats your boat i guess. 


i thought i would start this 1 because my friend asked me how i felt and i wasn't sure. think I'm still not  

im a bit confused.

kel


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Personally...never in a million years, couldn't ever be with any one that turned out not to be monogamous... nothing that had been,would be real any longer.. all that was would be nothing but a farce and to me the biggest betrayal... but............. I think what goes on between four walls is all ok (I'm pretty open minded)  if two partners feel the same about things, as long as both partners are agreeable and agree with open relationship,they live their lives and good luck to them...Consenting adults etc... but not for me or mine.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Does that including dogging?





    
Just wanted to see if I could shock anyone. An open relationship is usually just an excuse for the bloke (usually is the male) to shag lots of women. I couldnt stand it at all. I have always told my DH that I am happy for him to shag other women as long as I can also shag other men. When he asks for a 3sum I say great I have always fancied 2 blokes! Of course its never what he means as being male its all about him and his gratifications. He admits that he couldnt stand it if I slept with anyone else and so understands that I feel the same way. But I am very open minded and liberal when it comes to sex (and most other things actually). As long as it involves consenting adults (so no kids, dead people or animals) I think that anything is OK. I also think that I should never knock what I havent tried and would fancy it in theory but am a hopeless chicken with body issues so will never do anything about it.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

If a partner is unfaithful... should we give them another chance?


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Hmmmmmmmm.  Think this is a tricky one - my first instinct would be to say "no - kick them out and forget them", but it's never that straightforward.

Before we were married both me and my DH were unfaithful and even ended up splitting for a year, but we both felt that what we had was worth working on so tried to put in behind us and work things out.

Not sure that I could forgive him again, but to be honest - that is probably my pride talking as my heart would want to, but my head is just too damn stubborn!


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

I would say no but-

    My dh cheated on me not long after we got 2gether,as much as i wanted to walk away i couldnt.So we got through it and have never looked back.I wouldnt forgive a second time though.


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

I don't think I could. I think I might try but as much as I love DP it wouldn't be fair on him as every time he left the house, his phone went I would be wondering who it was or what he was up to.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I have always said, with any relationship that it would be over as all we had would no longer be real, it would all have been a
farce. I truly don't know how I could have a relationaship once trust has been broken.Trust is such a big part of a relationships
foundation. I can't imagine how I would be able to get my head round him and forgive him, as much as I may want to, 
but I guess if your truly honest, until your in that position I don't suppose you can ever be 100% sure of your reaction...
When I was married to my x husband for 17yrs, I used to daydream and even write poetry about being free one day and 
meeting my knight in shining armour..
Is that hypocrytical? Maybe it depends on the substance of your relationship in the first place in a way,I dunno?
Also my DH and I also agree that a kiss is as bad as sleeping with someone, we feel that a real intense passionate kiss can be just as intimate.. I know the thought of my DH kissing someone passionately would be as bad for me as if he'd slipped his sausage in  (pre-pickle jar)    of course!


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

Hi Jus had to let you know that I actually cheated on my husband once, and he forgave me. our relationship has since been alot stronger and it's something I would never ever do again. I won't try and make any excuses becuase i accept full responsibilty for my actions, but it happened at a very bad point in our lives. I am just so glad that my dh gave me a second chance, as we are both strong believers that everyone deserves another go, and we should be given the chance to learn from our mistakes, which I certainly have done.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Fi - I agree with you about a kiss being more intimate than, say, a drunken quickie or something.  I think I could forgive a one-off like that quicker than I could forgive something that had brewed for ages with secrecy and emotional conversations and stuff.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Ooh Cat thats a brave one... fair play! 

Personally, I've never been in a position to have to make that decision myself, although I know a few close friends that have. I think that personally I can't imagine having one unless it was extreme circumstances :..  Rape or being told baby would have no quality of life etc.... and even then not sure...

But as much as I have always held strong self belief, I don't feel we have the right to act as judge and jury to others generally, Yes, I have known someone in the past who could count on four fingers how many she'd had, and had continued the cycle of sleeping around and saying "oops", don't want this"... that was when I felt strongly and rightly or wrongly made my feelings known.. I feel its important to try and be aware that everybody is an individual with an personal scenario if having made that choice., I don't believe I can generalise and be "anti" full stop, as there are sometimes extenuating circumstances. But obviously with us ladies, where we are now, each little pea, is a treasured miracle, who we all know what its like to yearn so badly for, and there could be very strong views. We could also extend this debate, and ask 
DOES A MAN HAVE A RIGHT TO A SAY IN THIS IF A WOMAN MAKES THE DECISION TO ABORT


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

First - Cat - my heart does out for you. And how very brave to say what you did, you are an incredible woman.  

As for abortion: a woman has a right to do what she believes is in the best interests of the child and her own life. If that includes abortion - for whatever reason then I fully support them. 

I have never had an abortion (cause I cant get BFP obviously!!) but an awful lot of my girlfriends have. One because her baby had a 1 in 3 chance of being downs, one because she was addicted to prescription drugs, one because she didnt believe in the pill and it was a mistake, one because although she was married they werent financially in the right place at the time. Many many different reasons. Most that I wouldnt abort for myself, but I still believe in the rights of women to choose. And I wouldnt want to live in a society that didnt have that right available to women. 

Recently I asked DH once again about the Downs child question. That is if we knew our baby had Downs would he want to keep it? He said 'no way' straight away. It is something we have discussed before and he has always maintained that he would not want to keep the child. I on the other hand am not sure. I think that a Downs child is still your child and still a person who loves and gives love. I would want to keep the baby - so what if they are not perfect in the eyes of society. I dont believe in this notion for a society that only chooses to keep perfect people in the world. Where will it end? Will we start aborting babies with a known cancer gene that kills them when they are say 40? Its science fiction stuff but only just. 

And anyway who says that they have a poor quality of life? Sure it would hard work but what is quality of life. To me its love, health and happiness. There is no reason why Downs people cannot have those 3 things although I conceed that health issues prevail. But they can still have relationships and work. They can still have loving and meaningful relationships with friends and family.

So here I am, I want to keep a Downs baby and DH wants to abort. I hope it never comes to that choice but if it does then ultimately the last say is mine. As ultimately the majority of the responsibility will be mine. But I would never want make my DS life difficult or mess it up - which is what my DH sites as one of his main reasons for aborting. I agree that men have a role in the decision to keep a child or not. That it is just as much their child and I do believe in Fathers for Justice. I just dont know what I would do if we had to make that kind of terrible decision.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Firstly - Cat 

Ok......my personal opinion is that every woman should be able to choose.  I was in a position many years ago where I found myself PG and because of various reasons decided not to go ahead with the pregnancy and booked for a termination, but changed my mind daily whether it was the right thing to do.  In the end, the decision was made for me as I had a MC before the termination date arrived.

Obviously, the position I (and all of us) are in now I find it hard to accept that I (or any woman really) could choose to terminate a pregancy for any reason other than disability, rape, etc., but still believe that the choice should be there and none of us can judge anyone unless we have walked in their shoes. 

As for whether the man has any rights......hmmmmmmm, it's a tricky one, but I think I would lean towards saying that ultimately it's the womens final decision. 

Nix


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

Ok heres an odd story for you, I have never agreed with abortion and also swore I would never have one, but then some years ago I found out I was pregnant and soon after also discovered that the father was a paedophile, (how unlucky am I?) so I had a termination rather than risk my baby growing up being labelled because of who its father was ( I lived in a tiny village at the time worse than emmerdale for people knoing everybodies business), as they say the sins of the father shall be bestowed upon the child, or something like that. I think it showed me that there are certain circumstances which you wouldnt know how to deal with unless it actually happens to you. After the termination though I swore that I would never have one ever again, but I feel wrong saying that because you cant see whats going to happen in the future. Anyway thats my 2 cents, praying I havent offended anyone no as Im not overly articulate.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Oh Cat, thats one of those scenarios where you may well end up getting the blame isn't it, for being the bearer of bad news..
I've thought of this one before, I would let him know that I was aware,(and being me no doubt tell him what I thought of him) and that he had x amount of time to confess or I would tell my friend myself, there is no doubt my loyalty would lie with my friend, and couldn't be a friend knowing of this deception and saying nothing,thats not protecting her its leaving her open to repetition and more future hurt. I would want to know and am going by that... Therefore he would have the chance to redeem anything if he could before I had to disclose something so horrid.
But by being silent I would feel I was no friend.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

OK so last month I think I mentioned that I was having a hard time with my friends at the moment and it is exactly because of this type of situation.

Its complicated so bare with me: My girlfriend - who is the wife of my DH best mate - hold me she had a 7 year affair with a mutual friend of ours (also her DH best mate who lives in the flat upstairs). She told me because I was driving past her place and needed the loo badly so I called in and banged on the door begging to come in and use the loo and she said no! 
After she told me she begged me not to tell anyone. Now about 2 weeks later I told my DH. I know I shouldnt have but it was just too much for me not to share with him. He said that he had to tell his best mate (the wifes Dh). I begged him not to and he didnt. Then he got drunk and told another mutual friend who then told everyone involved that my DH was spreading nasty rumours. So the wife wont speak to me, DH best friend wont speak to him because the wife denyed it, the guy having the affair with the wife hates DH and I as does his brother and anyone else, and the mutual friend believes the adulterers and thinks we are lying bast**ds. All in all we have come out looking like we just made the whole thing up. 
I spoke to the wife and asked her if she lied to me and she said no but sorry she has to deny it all. 
So moral of the story - keep ya gob shut and say nothing! Oh and never tell me a secret if you dont want to share it with my DH!


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

This is a real tricky one cos as Cat said - you run the risk of getting shot as the messenger.

My DH has put me in quite a few awkward situations with my girlfriends where he will tell me something that their DP's have been up to, but then say "you can't say anything cos I'm not sposed to have told you".  I have always kept my mouth shut out of loyalty to my DH, but it does make things very awkward.

I think, going from past experience, I would judge each case differently and it would depend on the situation and the couple concerned.


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

Hi cat,

      I havent got an answer for that1,i dont know what i would do untill i was actually in that situation,i wouldnt like to do it but dont know if would or not.It would depend who it was and how bad they were i suppose.x


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

I agree with you Cat - I'm not sure what I would do if I was ever in that situation (and hope to God that I never will be), but I do believe that people should have the right to decide there own fate if they have a terminal illness.


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Depending how close I was then I would have to say yes, after watching my auntie die of leukemia and my Nan from brain cancer I have seen the pain and suffering people go through, like many of us have seen. If a dog or animal was that ill we would put them down, why should we have to suffer more then animals at times like these, especially when we are the 'Superior' ones and can actually make an informed decision on what we want.


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I have promised my DH that I would help him die if he was ever left in a vegative state or terminally ill. I hope it never comes to it of course but I am fully prepared to go to jail because I know that its his absolute worst nightmare. 

Here's another topic for you: should you smack children?


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Cat -    and lots of them darling. 

Nix.


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

I dont think theres any harm in a tap on the hand or bum over the nappy.x

I dont agree with anything more.When i hear mothers yelling at there kids in the street im gonna thrash u in a min it makes me cringe.x


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Well for what its worth I dont agree with smacking children but I dont have issues with parents who choose to smack lightly. 

My argument is that hitting a child only teaches them to use violence to deal with a difficult situation and thats no lesson to teach at all. I also never ever agree with a smack given to a child in anger and it almost always is. To lose your temper and hit someone, anyone, is totally and utterly unacceptable. I have never smacked my DS and as a result he has never been a child that hits, kicks or bites other children. I have noticed that the friends who hit their children have children who hit other children. 
One of my friends bit her child on the arm after she bit her hard on the nipple when breast feeding. I was so shocked as I was there at the time. Now this woman is a senior lecturer at Brunel Uni so she is educated and middle class. She explained to me that it was classic Pavlov's Dog conditioning and a way to show a child the implications of their actions. I just called it violence against a 12month old baby and a lesson in biting. It didnt stop her child from biting her or others again.

That said I was smacked as a child, had the whole wooden spoon across the backs of my legs, ruler over the palms of my hands and some terribly violent smacks at times just like you Cat. Anyway I was so terrified of doing anything wrong that I was an angel. Never would have dreamed of talking back to an adult or being disrespectful like alot that I see so maybe we do need to bring in some stronger forms of punishment.


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

I was given light smacks on the bum or back of legs when I was a kid if VERY naughty, but for me being shouted at by my mum was always worse than being smacked or threatened with a smack.  To hear people really screeching and screaming at their kids in the street or shops always makes me cringe.  Not having any children yet, I don't know how I will react to naughty behaviour, but like to think that I wouldn't resort to smacking.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I have to hold my hands up here. When my girls were smaller,I wont deny they had a few smacks,a good parent will hopefully know their
boundaries and a bad one would do it anyway.I think it should be a last resort and never done when your angry and avoided if at all possible. I tried positive reinforcements and the "ignore the bad, praise the good" philosophy, but there were times when a  light smack seemed the only option.I think if I have any regrets with that though it was when my oldest DD was an older teenager and pushed and pushed, even hitting out at me in terrible rages,she was one heck of a wild child, expelled from school and rebelling against every authority(my other DD is as calm and gentle as the other is aggressive i might add) and I will admit having to use force to overcome her aggression,and eventually at times becoming angry myself. In hindsight = I was in fact breeding aggression with aggression, but when your struggling alone with a useless DH (now my x) and no answer in sight and totally cornered, I was human and let her down.
Psychiatrists were eventually (after years of screaming for help) evaluating whether she had ADHD but before diagnosis my DD pulled out and refused any help, having reached 16 they said she had the right to decline, from then on we had to fight it alone.So yes I think there are times when it is accceptable to give light smacks, but much prefer to think we use every tactic first, and now as an older wiser person I feel I would hope I'd never smack my child again. As for the pavlovs dog cognitive crap used on a 12 month old baby, thats way out of order.. (cognitive behaviour should be a guide to positive constructive responses, and with someone old enough to understand the procedures)

But somethings gone wrong,the world has gone to pot lately.. theres no dicipline or respect. The days when you respected the local 
bobby and the headmaster are out the window,a smack when I was old enough to understand did me no harm, Also emotional abuse can be more damaging to a child than physical, I'd have taken a thousand smacks instead of what was done to my head growing up...its a hard one.. (but in the same breath any physical violence that marks a child physically or like Cats childhood is totally unacceptable)


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

I also have to admit i have sometimes smacked my ds,but only in very very extreme circumstances. as a rule i do not smack him, mainly because when i was married to his father he was an absolute tyrant and poor ds was terrified of him, and he would smack ds for anything,especially for not eating his dinner or something stupid like that. As much as i wanted to intervene at times like this I would get a beating too if and when i did. Needless to say i left him, and ds has very little to do with him now either, and luckily for us my dh is a very kind considerate man who adores my ds, and he has never raised a hand to him. We have found there are better ways to deal with inappropriate behaviour, like taking away his personal things or something like that, and we have found it tends to work, but at times i have forgotten myself and given him the odd slight tap, usually just on his arm or something but i dont really smack him, not hard anyway. I dont have a problem with parents who do smack their children though, as long as it is within reason and not over the top, by that i mean pants pulled down in public and botty battered type of thing.


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Got to say I would actualy go into the bank and tell them. Partly with the fact I am I goody goody like that, ( found a womans handbag hanging off the back of a trolley in the asda car park and took it straight back in ). And partly because with all the cctv cameras at the cash machines there is no way I would get away with it


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

Sorry but i admit I would nab it and run


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

im with you fallen angel grab and run


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## maj79 (Jun 4, 2007)

Kelli I am dissapointed with you


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

yeah yeah you would be tempted maj come on admit


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm afraid I'm too honest in that scenario, in case it belonged to a pensioner or needy person, but would insist on receipt in bank as prob wouldnt trust a cashier   . Found a handbag in toilets on hols last year, and ended up ringing mobile in bag (with loads of dosh in) only knew that cos I had to look for a way to contact them etc..... and even though it meant ages waiting and investigating, it was worth it and would do it again "Watch the halo!"


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I found a handbag once so I took the money out of the purse to cover the postage costs only and posted it back to the woman. As for the cash machine I dont know what I would do. I would probably tell the bank that I found some money and leave my contact number. I wouldnt feel right about taking the money but would feel lucky if I got to keep it.


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

ok I feel really naughty now      lol


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

dont i dont if some 1 else found it do you think they would give it back to you? no i dont think so.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Have to beg to differ Kelli   Maj and Davis would (even if Davis does take out the postage cost lol) , and I'm sure that Cat would.
, I believe there are a lot of people out there still who would, though I agree there are also a lot that wouldn't.....


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

yeah but more wouldn't these days a lot more people are so dishonest. well that what i think may be its just north east people who are      


kel


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Nah its prob just that I'm gullible Kelli   , just read your feeling hormonal, big hugs to you hun, this ttc has prob played havoc with your emotions for so long, its like mind blowing, and also very scary, were here for you xx


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

If it was money hanging out of a cashpoint then I'm afraid I would probably take it, but if it was a handbag or a purse then I would hand it in.


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

Ive found handbags and purses b4 and handed them in.if it was hanging out of a cash machine thats different lol


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## Rosie P (Nov 10, 2005)

Hi girls. Back when the story about Maddy McCann first broke there were quite a few posts made of FF debating the actions etc. of her parents. FF took the stance of deleting any such posts as they could easily be read by the McCann's or their friends and family and were not seen to be particularly helpful, constructive or supportive to the family. Therefore I have had to remove the debate on this subject. 

Hope you understand.  

Rosie. xxx


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I understand the FF reasons for removing the posts and completely agree with FF stance but wonder why the posts didnt just have the 'not FF oppions clause' put on the bottom as they are on others. 
Oh well new topic:

Should age restrictions be put on IF treatment? At what age are you too old to be a new mother?


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

i think any age if you want to be a mum at 18 or 60 the feeling is the same as long as your fit and healty. you can love a baby just the same.


kel


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

But what about the rights of the child? A 60 year old mother will not be alive (on average) when the child is 15/16. Surely that it not fair on the child?


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

No its not but if a woman of 60 wants a baby. no 1 will change her mind or the longing for a child wont go away. i think its up to the individual woman.

kel


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I see what you are saying about the longing of the mother but thats about the mother not the child. The child has rights, including unborn children. Motherhood is about being selfless not selfish and thinking only about the mothers desires is just selfish. 

It is not right to have a child if you know that you and your partner will probably die before they are adults and therefore they will be placed in care.

Then there is the stigma of having very old parents. Children can be very cruel and will not fail to notice the age.

But on the otherhand society is changing. Women are having children later in life and medical advances are enabling this change so surely it is wrong to say that a 40 year old woman cant have IVF treatment when it is now acceptable for women to have children in their early forties.

And maybe children of older parents have a better quality of life simply because the parents are more able to cope with the demands because they are maturer? 

Then there is the fact that maybe we live in a society of choice and consumerism. And that we think that we can apply that to our own bodies. Maybe if you cant have a child because you are too old you just need to accept that it is not something you can just purchase. Not everything can be bought.

As you can see I dont know what I think on this one.


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

I personally also believe that there should perhaps be an age restriction as it is not fair to the child to have to grow up facing the prospect of living most of their teenage years as an orphan, not to mention the fact that there is also a bullying issue concerning older parents. I remeber a girl in my class whose mother was 55 when she was 10, and she got some terrible stick, calling her mum a granny and horrible things like that. Also I would like to point out that losing a parent at any age is awful to have to go through, but for a young child to lose their parents is a truly devastating experience and i therefore think it is wrong for a potential parent to go ahead and conceive knowing that this is what their child will have to go through.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Firstly I feel the age restriction on IVF and the "acceptable" age of conception should be one and the same.And I think it's important to keep in mind that not all older mothers plan to be, sometimes the long lasting pain of infertility makes that decision for them, as some ladies sadly already are experiencing.For the people who are judgemental of older women,say up to the age of the menopause as a rough guide, it may be good to not throw too much opinion unless you've walked in their shoes, or may sadly find yourself doing so in the future.
I'm using my own scenario as an example, through choice not because I take any comments personally I'd like to point 
out. This like any other is a good and healthy debate.

My own personal opinion is that at 42 I would not go more than a few years trying to conceive (with knowledge that I'm a candidate of secondary infertility, and I am not going to go through the heart ache forever, as I have been fortunate to have been blessed once) as its my personal choice to have stopped by 45 if not before.Which would also make me, worst scenario,55 when my child would be ten.I'd like to add that my father was over 40 when I was conceived and was in both mine and my children's life for many many years,He was still around in my forties. I found age irrelevant as he was a wonderful father.I never dreamed of a younger dad as he was fit and able to do a lot more than many younger couch potato dads of this era.As for bullying and teasing, children are discriminated by parents weight,culture,hair colour, impediments and much more so I feel open minded on that one.

Firstly, I too agree that having a child should be about that child and what sort of quality of life you can offer it. No child
asks to be born, and they should come first and be the parents total responsibility as they are brought from the womb into Adulthood.
And how many younger parents are abusive, irresponsible,selfish and don't offer the unconditional love a child should have.
Other than the poor unfortunate women who are denied the chance due to impending early menopause, I believe that nature gave us bodies to make children until the menopause appears to then say the body is no longer valid , as the womb is
shutting down. I believe that average menopause is between 45-50 (I know there are exceptions of course, correct me 
if I'm wrong). My mother never had the menopause until she was 53, and my FSH level is very good at the moment for my age, so 
I feel that nature says I'm entitled, and I can verify that both my DH and I have so much to offer a child.. maturity,wisdom, still both fun loving,financially secure, and there are many younger mothers who can offer little if any of that.

One other thing to bear in mind is that parents sadly can be taken at any age, theres no guarantee that fate wont leave 
children with both parent's into adulthood anyway..We don't live in the ideal world, and obesity and many other issues are taking parents away while children are still young, should we be vetting and assessing potential parents health state before they're 
allowed to conceive too?
And finally it was put to me once when I was weighing up the responsibility of whether I'd selfish to ttc at my age and
I was told to think about this option
"if you have a child in the next few years, firstly would they swap you for younger parents or love you unconditionally for bringing 
them up well, and secondly, ask them if they're glad they are born"


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Thats the thing though Fi, it is completely acceptable and normal for women to have children in their forties now, my best friend is expecting and she is 44 and another just had her first at 46. So I see that as normal. But does that mean that we just keep pushing the age barriers further and further back over time so that it is commonplace for 60 year old women to have IVF and that becomes the norm? 

Dont get me wrong here, I will fight for my right to have a child by whatever means possible until I decide that its time to stop and not be told by some government lackey!

I really dont have an opinion either way.


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

well said fi. thats what i meant but couldn't find away to put it .

very good points


kel


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I totally agree with you Davis cocerning women in their 40's, my point is more generalised to include the people that dont approve of women in their forties
and there are many of them about. When I came on to ff I felt guilty and an intruder at first for having all ready had
children and for wanting one in my forties, and unfortunately both can be resented and not all people are as open minded.(Although the warmth and acceptance of all you lovely ladies, has quelled my guilt and I truly feel one of you) I simply extended it to the younger years as it is a going debate there too. I have read some coments made on
the over 40's site, where it has been voiced and with incensitivity.This was very distressing and hurtful to some women 
who through no choice of their own are trying so hard to have the same dream we wish for.And are very capable of giving all and more to their child.
I also agree that we cant keep pushing the barriers, I reiterate when we get to an age when our bodies are showing signs of tiring and natural fertility ceases, and can only go one way from then on, that is the time in my opinion when it is no longer fair on the child..(not IF problems where a willing body is malfunctioning ) thats when its time to call it a day ....


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

so what if you were 60 and in fantastic health would you still try


if the health of the woman is good then i cant see any reason not to have a baby. the child will loved and wanted. i see a lot of kids to very young mums and the kids are left to god and provedance. there mums couldn't give a toss. i think if health is good then age shouldn't matter. but people can be so crewel with there words. if we were brought up in a world were woman had baby's at a later age we wouldn't even be talking about this as it would just be a normal part of life. society judges people and it shouldn't.


kel

xx xx


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I agree with you Kelli, people can be very cruel and incensitive,and society really does judge too often on others, but what really
makes me laugh is that the very opinionated people in life rarely look in the mirror at themselves. (Let those who are perfect cast the first stone) but then this is a debate thread and opinions will be debated for as long as it lasts, which is what we hope for..
As for your question about 60 and healthy,I can only speak for me and my personal circumstances on this topic,
and I feel the time is good for me now to give it may last shot but will stop myself shortly as its too heartbreaking to keep failing too long (at my old age   ) ... and I think its lovely and sweet that you are so open minded for those older ttc's still being so young yourself hun... xx


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

fi i wouldn't be   if you were 60 my dear. i relay hope you and your DH get your dream Hun. you relay do deserve it.       feeling like your heart is riped out each month isn't nice and we can all agree on that 1. lots and lots of      from me to you.xxx



as for me being young at the min i feel 90    

take care kel.xxxxx


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## max_8579 (Jan 8, 2007)

I think 45 is reasonable age to have a baby but i wouldnt go over that.Mind i minght still be trying at that age


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

Just popped in to note that I made a mistake in my last post about the friend at school, I said her mum was 55 when she was 10 but I meant to say 65, got a bit trigger happy with the 5's. Sorry for any offence caused there, I dont have a problem at all with women in their 40's trying to conceive, as I still think thats a pretty reasonable age. My post was more concerning 60 and above. 
Saying that.... did any of you watch that series that was on a fair while back and one of the last episodes was concerning when the best time to give up is, and there was a woman on there who was one of the worlds oldest mothers, and i think she was italian or something, she was in her late 60's early 70's i think and she had a beautiful little girl and the love between them was so clear to see. that kind of made me think well they are both so happy, and the mother was pretty spritely too, is it really such a bad thing, but then one of the points being made was that the mother wasnt likely to live to see her daughter get married or have grandchildren, that made it quite sad to watch.


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

Can I suggest a new topic? If you conceived triplets or more would you consider selective reduction?


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

On a personal level no, I would believe it had happened for a reason, count my blessings and treasure every moment.
Yes it would be hard work, and one heck of a shock at first   but my goodness what a gift for empty arms......


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

No I woulldn't ..I would be happy to sit down for 9 months if it meant having a family..and  selective reduction itself can cause miscarriage so def no. 

If it was 5/6 then yes I would as the chance of them surviving would be so small without selective reduction ..but with triplets I wouldn't my Mum used to work on the prem baby unit and they had lots of successful triplet pregnancies even if some were born a bit early
Cat


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

it would save having to go through all that heartache of trying for more babies wouldnt it! personally, i wouldnt even consider selective reduction unless there was a medical reason for it and would put the other baby/ies in danger. although i agree with cat, if there was more than 3 babies then it would probably be for the best. its a difficult situation though as how guilty would you feel if if went ahead with it and then ended up m/c the others   i would think that it was my fault and blame myself for not giving them all a chance at life. 

dont suppose you know till you go through it though. god i think ive even confused myself now on where i stand!


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Lol Jo thats the good thing about a debate it gets you thinking, I know what you mean cos even with 5 you would think well other people have managed it ..but not many people..and I don't think my joints could cope with 5/6 ... even if I did spend 9 months in bed lol
Cat x


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## fallen angel (Dec 6, 2006)

I think if I conceived triplets or more I would have to seriously consider this option, as my consultant seemed adamant that any more than twins would end in disaster for me therefore the no ttc this month. It may be because I am of slight stature, I am 5ft 2 and weigh 8 stone. I dont think my body would be able to cope with triplets or more. God forbid it doesnt happen but if it did I think I would be in turmoil.


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Fallen Angel ..we pray for one perfect one for you then hun x


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I have an incompetent cervix which means that I am on total bed rest with one in my tum and at high risk of them coming early so I do not want twins or more. If I had twins I would risk the chance of them being prem although I am not sure that I could cope with one disabled child let alone two should they survive early prem birth. If I had triplets I think that I may choose to abort one although obviously not an easy choice to make.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

*Should we have national service or boot camps to replace asbos etc... for the youths of today?*

(my Dh wanted me to put "should we blame the suffragettes for divorces going through the roof, instead of having quiet lipped women appreciating men bringing in the bacon?" from a non male chauvenistic point of view of course...... he said!....  be back soon my DH wants a cup of tea!! ) yeah right!


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

My opinion on the latter


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Ummmm  .. I think something like that would be good something that is strict but fair and teaches them lots of skills/trades that they can use in the big wide world ..and be able to earn a living rather than live a life of crime..
Cat x


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

yep definitely agree, me and dh often talk about the youths of today (  us being old farts of course  ) and think that it would do them good to have some boundaries and routine, instead of bumming about on the streets and turning to crime


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

yes some 1 needs to teach them a lesson on how to behave in a way that doesn't stress others

and get them off the streets.


kel


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

I dont agree, I think that the parents of children need to take responsibility for their poor parenting. 
I understand that peer pressure does come into play but in the majority of cases you will find that asbo children come from lazy asbo parents, the kind that let them walk around the streets at night, or fail to teach them a work ethic, manners and respect. Alot of children are bored and turn to drugs/theft/gangs because their parents have never taken an interest in them, helping them to develop an interest in sports, music or the arts. They have just let them sit in front of TV for instant entertainment rather then allowing them to learn to entertain themselves through imaginary play. 

Were I come from in Australia the parents of children in trouble with the police are held accountable for their childs behaviour. It ranges from sending them on parenting classes, and counselling to giving them fines. 

I dont think that the state should take responsibility for teaching children (anyone under the age of 1 how to behave like decent members of society. Parents should.


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

I do agree that parents should be held accountable but you are then punishing the children by doing nothing else and just letting them drift ..by giving them something positive and constructive that they get rewarded for i.e. working hard is a positive message to them as far as I am concerned that if you work hard in life then you are more likely to be rewarded/succeed.. 
I think that parents should be held accountable for children not going to school etc ..but you have to remember that we have a lot of 'care in the community' vulnerable people that lack the intelligence through no fault of their own..who need assistance that is just not readily available due to lack of money... to get enough money to pay for the ideal support network would cost everyone a lot more taxes/council tax so if people want to see that they will have to put their money where there mouth is.. years ago these people would have been in institutions/hospitals ..I think there needs to be more sheltered communities where these people get the support for their own health needs but also to support their families..my ex neighbour for example had suffered two major head injuries and he was on constant medication.. through his head injury he had lost the ability to judge people and this made him really quite vulnerable and he was stabbed in his own flat .. if he had lived in a sheltered community where he could still have had his own independence but where someone looked in on him regularly to make sure he had taken his medication..cos half of the time he would forget..and made sure he was safe.. he would have been able to live independently but also safely..not everyone has a support network such as family etc .. and it shouldn't be that only people who have lots of money can retire into these sorts of places..why not have them all over the place where they can pay their normal rent/mortgage but it is just a more secure place for them to live. 

Cat x


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I feel that the state has been responsible for taking away the boundaries that allow dicipline in the first place and are now turning a blind eye whenever their heads venture out of the sands, and should therefore have the consequences of such an irrresponsible act, just as our youths of today should have them too. 
Whilst I agree that there are dysfunctinal families across the board, victims of nature/nurture, alloted with only the options of genetics and environment to set their path for the future, and no support from the very services that should be there to provide guidance and structure a lot of the time. All parents surely cannot be tarred with the same brush. I feel each scenario should be looked at individually..
I strongly feel that the facter of "fear" should again come into play for those that deserve it, fear of consequences, not a licence to carry on abusing authority and society. They are crying out for boundaries.. 
In many cases, good parents have their hands tied, they cannot dicipline, boundaries no longer have to be adhered to, and the kids know it.
I believe that in the long run, not only would boot camps show the irrisponsible youths that there are boundaries, but ones 
that will make men (and women) of them, who will learn to have self respect and respect for others..It would work out cheaper in the long run,and give us a better base for society. 
The other option is prisons full of youths simply being educated into crime and gang culture on the inside rather than the outside, hardened in a self negating way, or youths constantly escaping that demise only to be offered ASBOS of which theyre proud and wear like a medal. 
Take away the tellys, the play stations, the softening materialistic cushions they come to expect in a prison, and start form scratch.
If they know their consequences are having nothing and earning every single thing they get, with  newfound respect for themselves and fellow human beings, it is the best lesson to teach.
Maybe then the pensioners that are too scared to leave their own front doors will venture back out, parents will no longer have to worry about whether their children will be stabbed or shot, teachers will be able to teach without being bullied, police will be able to reclaim the territories of gang run estates,people will be able to seek help without fear of reprisal and children who no longer know what consequences are, will learn to follow the law.  Maybe only then a better society will re-emerge.
And yes, I agree that support to the vulnerable and those who were dealt a short straw in life, should also be a supported priority to avoid themselves and their siblings from taking the wrong roads, whenever possible..
I also believe that in the ideal world, we should offer positive reinforcement and teaching from an earlier age, before the 
basics of the personality are formed, but we are so far from that at the moment, we need to repair the damage done, and get a
clean slate, then maybe the state can reassess and learn to use their finances in a more constructive way, less talk more action,
as the old saying goes "a stitich in time, will always save nine"


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Here here


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

If a friend offered to be a surrogate would you accept?


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

I have actually asked my sister whether she would ever consider it (if it came to that stage) and she said no way, she hates being pregnant!   

My best friend has offered though to be one for me if i need one   love her to bits.

I think I would seriously consider it if i could use my own eggs and dh's sperm. If not, I would rather go down the adoption road.

Jo xxx


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

defanatly for me i think. My close friend and my sister said they would do it if it came to it.



kel


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Im not sure what surrogacy actually is. I know its when someone carries the baby for you but is it your eggs and sperm or their eggs and your sperm?
Sorry if Im thick.

Either way I dont think I would, I think I would foster or adopt instead. I dont think that their is anyone I would trust enough to be a surrogate for me. I just wouldnt trust a friend, I have seen really good friends fall out after going into business together let alone having to hand over the child they carried/or is theirs and then not interfear in that childs life or upbringing further down the line. If it was a simple business transaction with someone I dont know I would still have issues with their motivation and what they did during the pregnancy.

If it was my sister then maybe but she cant have anymore children.


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Its a hard one... on one hand how bad do you want a baby? versus the negative issues that coincide. I imagine there are altruistic women out there who honestly do it due to their wanting to give and feel real empathy for the wanton mother. And god bless them.. but there are also women who may have other motives, it would be such a gamble wouldnt it, they may grow to love the baby in their womb, or be unable to dissengage and follow it through, I think it would take a very special kind of friend or family member to be able to do that and see it to the end without complications, and they would always play a big part in you and your childs life? Which would be a likely complication in the future, I have been blessed and had two children who are now grown, and myself I wish for a child thats the product of the love of me and DH, so I would have to say no, the gamble is too high.. but if I  walked in the shoes of a woman who is desperately wanting their first child, then I may think very differently...


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

*Would you become a sarrogate (assuming you could have children with no problems (yeah we wish!) *


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

I think I would if it was someone close to me so that I could continue some kind of close relationship with the child, but if I could have children with no problem I would probably have had four of my own by now ..I always wanted a houseful ..and my cousin has done just like that as if shelling peas..


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

i just read this and its so true

_ of all the rights of a woman, the greatest is to become a mother _


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Yeah shame some people take it for granted eh .. you will get there one day hun x


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

we all will hun


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

If you hit a car in a car park ..would you confess and leave a note


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Probably cos I know how annoying it is when it happens to you!

Someone drove into my MIL's parked car while it was parked outside our house last week and left their details on the windscreen and she was so grateful !


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

ummm i have to admit that i once scraped a car when i first passed my test but there was so many dents on it already i kinda drove off     

i would be mad if it happend to me though.... how bad am i!


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

You are very very bad


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok so I have hit someone and left a note on the windscreen and I have hit someone and just driven off. It all depends on how hard I hit them and how much damage I do. Oh and if its possible that anyone else saw me do it


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

Davis ha ha .. you're bad I have to admit if it was a battered old thing and it was just a scratch i.e hitting it with the door or something -I had that happen once where the wind just took hold of the door and hit it against the car next to me ..but you couldn't tell amongst all the other dents so I sheepishly drove off.. if it was anything worse than that I would. Its funny cos the day I posted this one ..it happened to my friend and luckily they did leave a note as did hundreds of pounds worth of damage to hers.. 
Cat


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

OK girls new question - Can a woman steal your man?


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

As in - would you allow her to, or do you think he'd allow himself to be stolen ?!?!


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

thats what i was gonna say nix! i certainly wouldnt allow it to happen if thats the question


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## kellixxx (May 30, 2007)

If its offerd on a plate to a man i think they would just take it. as for steling your man if a man whants to be stole he will. i would just    her head in


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## Nix76 (Aug 2, 2006)

Damn right Jo!

I think it'd take a brave woman to attempt to steal a Clomid girls man


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## Davis (Jul 16, 2003)

Well its just that some women will sleep with a another womans man just because they can. And its as much to hurt the partner of the man or to make themself feel good as it is to actually want to sleep with him. And men, being ruled by their c*cks just take what is offered to them on a plate. So then a woman could steal a man!

But on the otherhand if the man really loves and cherishes his partner then maybe you could say that he would just say no, and that if he didnt then maybe he wanted to find a way out of the relationship and it conveniently came in the form of a fling with another woman. That no he cant be stolen unless he wants to be!


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

I think it depends on the state of your relationship and the circumstances around it.. as it stands we have a brilliant relationship and I know my man wont wander, hes just too moralistic, hes always said that if he found himself being attracted to someone, he would sit down and discuss it with me as it would mean there were problems in our relationship.... and that he'd finish it as a last resort  first before he'd ever do anything, I honestly trust him, being the man he is.......

But I can honestly say if a woman ever so much as tried, it would be the last thing shed ever do     

And very true " no man can be stolen unless he wants to be!"


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

I have been out with two married men..both I hasten to add lied through their teeth and as soon as I found out they were promptly dumped .. so it is not always as simple as a woman stealing the man ..sometimes the men just want more than what they have ..I have male friends that are like that and they say they get bored !! 

I personally could never have an affair with a married man as I would always put myself in her shoes .. and I know I def would not like it !!    
Cat x


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## Crazy Fi (Mar 19, 2007)

Cat I too got hoodwinked by a married man when I was very young and naive, he even used his friends flat as his "pad" and gulible me believed him for months, I regret to this day that he was the one who "took" my virginity  . B*stard....... he also kept me going for weeks that he was dying of cancer, tears and all ..... What a pratt I was lol .. Which takes me back to "depends on the type of guy they are..... Oh well you live and learn ...


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## wouldloveababycat (Mar 21, 2004)

3 Days til your holiday yipee..bet you are dead excited hun x


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## NuttyJo (Jun 29, 2007)

i have kinda had a thing with a married man, went nothing further than kisses etc but i knew he was married and his wife was having a baby   i feel evil now as if that was my husband i would go mental


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