# Horrible post- 2nd IVF BFN consultation



## coldhandswarmheart (Nov 22, 2014)

Hi ladies
Just desperate for any thoughts on this.

We had our final consultation yesterday with our Dr after our 2nd failed IVF at the same clinic. I've really been a big fan of his up until now, and was so shocked and upset that he was really negative and blunt in our meeting, when I thought we hadn't done too badly and it was just another bit of bad luck it hadn't worked. Our infertility is unexplained with no obvious issues so far. 

I managed to produce 8 good size follies, but only got 5 eggs, although 4 fertilised and we managed to put back 3 (2 good grades, 1 average) on Day 3. I thought this was pretty good going for my age! He said absolutely not. 

He also said in a really blunt way that he felt it was definitely egg quality (after 2 cycles)  that was the issue and not implantation issues, when I asked him. I know it sounds silly but I just had this weird overwhelming feeling of being sort of told off, and that I was to blame and that it was all my fault. It was all also made so much worse when he then says there is nothing at all can be done about this. I was just in bits. 

He didn't have any other ideas for alternative protocols and sort of seemed to be closing the door on us, which I just felt again so shocked and hurt by, as we haven't even had 3 cycles yet, which I always assumed was sort of the average number!

I was in floods of tears all day yesterday going over and over everything he'd said and just can't get his words out of my head. My DH has been so sweet and keeps telling me that all the irritating figures the Dr kept spouting (1 or 2 eggs in 10 being chromosomally normal, 15-20% chance of cycles working) are exactly the same as we had at the beginning, which I know is true so I just can't get my head around why he was so weirdly negative. 

Fortunately we'd already decided we want to move clinic and give it another go elsewhere (finances permitting) so now just desperately trying to work out where - which is also giving me brain ache. I'm so anxious if we book meetings with other consultants (for £200 a pop - god why is this game so hideously expensive!!!!!) they're going to say the same. 

Any thoughts on any of the above or where to turn next SO gratefully received 

Thanks so so much ladies
xxxxxx


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## Suziefloozie (Jan 19, 2014)

Hello
Sorry to read this, sometimes the DR are too brutal, it didn't help that he couldn't offer any solution there are always options so trying a different clinic is a good idea, sadly our egg quality does decrease with age, but that doesn't mean it would never work for you, I feel your pain   

We had 4 rounds of ICSI in UK all BFN and with my age and DH crap sperm we have made the decision to try DE, we thought in for a penny in for a pound we both are dodgy   the clinic promise blastocysts our embryos were never good enough for that.

Take care of yourself, your path will become clear just give it time


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## Snoopie (Oct 22, 2014)

Hi Coldhandswarmheart,

Sending big hugs, and it's so not you. It's almost comic how insensitive certain doctors are, especially when it comes to being heard. I'm the same age as you and I'm sure you, like me, have googled the stats of getting pregnant at our age, and whilst I respect the fact that doctors need to give their honest 'opinion', it is just that, an 'opinion'. They're there to guide you, but also to listen to you. Producing 5 eggs / 8 follies is *something* you've every right to have hope.

My OH and I have gone to a few consultations in between clinics, you're right it's not easy at £200+ a pop, sometimes with the indignity of a pelvic scan before you're even had a chance to talk! We haven't got lucky either, yet. But the thing that helped us manage, is that we persisted in getting ourselves heard. 

I wanted to go on DHEA after reading tonnes of research papers about it, my previous clinic were unsupportive and many other clinics poo poo'ed the idea. But I wanted to so eventually found a doc who supported it. For whilst we still trying, my egg quality & quantity has definitely improved. For others, DHEA might not be their thing, but it might be something's else they want to try or discuss. Whatever it is, feeling supported for the decisions you're making about your body is vital. For me, even if it didn't make a difference, being supported is what mattered.

No clinic can promise you a result, but they should honour & support your decisions. This is one of the toughest things you'll go through in your life, please don't lose hope. Find a doctor whose manner you find helpful, change clinics if need be. It's true they can't drastically change your odds, but they can drastically change your experience. Whatever the future holds, you at the very least deserve that.

Sending you good energy


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## coldhandswarmheart (Nov 22, 2014)

Thank you both so much - it's so lovely to even get some reassuring words.


Of course, as you both say, we all know the realities of egg quality diminishing with age but we've always known that, ever since we've started down this path, so I still don't really understand where this Dr (who had previously been so positive) was coming from with all the sudden negativity. I am a realist but I still don't feel we've given it everything we've got with my OE, and as such I think he should have dealt with it better. My DH mentioned yesterday that on thinking about it, he suddenly wondered if the Dr was trying to put us off a 3rd round with the same clinic as it might affect their HFEA stats and figures!I know it sounds random, but I sort of wouldn't be surprised as the whole thing was so utterly out of character.

Anyway, onwards and upwards now, we're moving on. Incidentally, thank you so much Snoopie for you info re DHEA - this same Dr, like yours, totally poo poo'ed the idea when I mentioned it, but I like you, have done masses of research and would really like to try it. In USA they use if virtually everywhere in women over 40, so I think there must be something in it. 
As you also say, the key thing in this whole hideous business is feeling HEARD and respected and not like you're a number - which was ironically why we went with this Dr and this clinic in the 1st place! Of course no-one can ever guarantee you a baby, but at least on that journey there should be ways to make it less of a trial than it already is.

Thank you so much for your thoughts - so appreciate being able to share.
xxx
P.S. Snoopie, would you mind if I ask which clinics you've been to and had experience of, either with treatment or consultations or whatever?  It's just it'd be great to have any useful info from someone in my exact age bracket/position and at the moment my head is well and truly spinning. Do PM me if you'd rather. Thanks so much
x


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## 2Buttons (Jul 11, 2012)

Hi there, just thought I'd add my tuppence in...

I had a bad meeting after my 2nd cycle where Dr told me we needed donor sperm or donor eggs as we hadn't made it to blast. I cried after and later that evening had to tell my DH his sperm was prob poor (I also gave him a decision tree including divorce as I felt such a failure). Awful, I also think consultant was trying to save their stats. Anyway def time for a 2nd opinion, we changed clinics, were offered the 2nd tier immunes and dna frag tests - both of which we failed so gave us answer and although after 3mths we couldn't improve the sperm we have made it to blast on 6 cycles since! We got our first bfp last month with donor sperm and now praying it lasts.

Sooo, my advice is definitely 2nd opinion and go for the best lab you can. Dhea is controversial but so is neupogen and many others. I think coq10, royal jelly and inositol are all good supplements for egg quality. If you need to move on to donors you will know when the time is right. Good luck on your journey


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## Kitan (Sep 2, 2014)

Hi Coldhandswarmheart,

It just goes to show the difference in attitudes from one clinic to the next.  I am also your age and had a high FSH (20) so my consultant instantly tried to put me off OE IVF and was highly surprised when I, like you, produced 5 eggs and 3 fertilised.  Sadly this resulted in BFN but he was still quite positive and all for me having another go 3 months later.  This time I only produced 3 eggs with one fertilising but not making it to transfer.

I was heartbroken as the response wasn’t as good and decided I didn’t want to return to my original clinic as I felt it was all about getting the money out of us.  I’m going to Dogus, Cyprus where I plan to have a tandem cycle end of March as I always said I’d have 3 goes with my own eggs.  I didn’t ever want to give up hope on my own eggs but when I accepted it might never happen, unless I tried donor, I felt a weird kind of relief so a tandem cycle is ideal in case we need to fall back on DE.

Sadly were all just numbers to these clinics and they’re only really interested in statistics.  Us ‘oldies’ don’t tend to bump their numbers up so they’re happy for us to go elsewhere.  Just try not to take it personally.  Find a clinic who will support you, surround yourself with understanding family and friends and never give up x  .


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## CrazyHorse (May 8, 2014)

coldhands, I think 2Buttons is quite right -- for one reason or another, this clinic (and thus this doctor) have become worried about their stats, and are discouraging OE patients who they think will drag their stats down. 5 eggs with 4 fertilised is excellent for your age. The reason you're confused by the change in the doctor's attitude is that the change is nothing to do with you -- there's something else going on. No, your odds per cycle aren't great. That's exactly why anyone would expect it's likely you'd need more than 2 cycles for success!

Have you looked at any clinics abroad? I'm starting a cycle with Reprofit in Brno (Czech Republic), and they deal with a lot of older patients / poor responders. While the travel costs add up, the clinic's fee a cycle with mild stims (where the plan is to get only one or 2 good-quality eggs) is only 850 EUR, and the cost of the drugs is ~ £350 GBP. You get the scans done at a local private ultrasound clinic, like Babybond; they're about £100/scan, and you only need one or two. The doctors will do an initial Skype consult for free. I know there are also lots of older ladies who go to Serum in Greece.

Chin up, dearie.   I know you're feeling shocked and sad, but there is DEFINITELY still hope.


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## churchmouse41 (Jan 10, 2014)

Hello, I'm sorry you are going through this. The insensitivity of the doctors sometimes is astounding!

Have you looked at either mild or natural IVF? The thinking is that lower doses of drugs preservatives the quality of the eggs us oldies produce. Clinics that focus on this approach are definitely less hung up on the stats. 

I am currently 35 weeks pregnant with an OE 'mild' baby. I had an AMH of about 5 but pretty good AFC and responded really well to low does of drugs. You can see from
my signature it took a few goes but we got there. And no one ever mentioned moving on to DE. 

It might be worth looking into if you want to continue with OE tries? I guess the DE option is always there anyway. 

Good luck

CM x


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## Altai (Aug 18, 2013)

Hi,

Dr can be sometimes brutally straightforward. On my first  consuls, the dr told me (among other 'nice' things) that if I only had money for 1-2  goes, then perhaps ivf is not a best way for me to go and I should consider other options. I did ask how tries it's reasonably to expect. 

I'd echo other ladies -try mini ivf if u'd like to continue with  oe. 
It's much cheaper and if you find the winning drugs combination, you could get the same number of eggs with full stimm.
On my last mini, I got 5 mature eggs, same as I got with 450u stimms. 



Good luck


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## Snoopie (Oct 22, 2014)

Hi Coldhandswarmheart 

We started on mild ivf at Create, our experience there was ok, but we found it a little disorganised and not what we expected. We got 5 eggs , no blasts but a weak chemical preg.

We then looked at a few clinics including the ARGC, we didn't like their 'our way or the highway approach' and the cost didn't seem to justify the difference. We chose the Lister because they had a couple of docs that support DHEA. Plus side they are a much more professional set up than some of the alternative clinics, downside they do seem to have a huge amount of people they deal with and the communication isn't great sometimes, but they do deal with feedback well. I do seem to get a better outcome egg wise (17 eggs on one cycle) with the DHEA, but male factor issues seem to be the issue for us. 

We're in the midst of our 5 cycle, this time with donor sperm so we'll see if anything changes. If not donor egg, but I feel the clinic is pretty good as supporting our choices. In fact the doc suggested we try another cycle with our own, it was us that wanted to draw a line and try donor. I'd much rather that way round than then pushing a decision by being negative.

Good luck Hun, fingers crossed for Coldhandswarmheart+babytum


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