# Second failed IVF-advice needed



## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi All. This is my first post on here but I've lurked for over a year!!

I'm feeling bleak and despondent after my second IVF just resulted in a negative. We (me 35 and husband 40)were recommended for IVF after my highest FSH came back at 22, AMH at 5.9 and AFC usually between 7-9. Husband is totally fine. First IVF I was stimming on 450iu of Menopur for 16 days as it took my ovaries a while to get going but this resulted in 8 eggs, 5 of which fertilised. We were over the moon. All looked great on day 3 so we were recommended to go to blastocyst but by day 5 all had arrested.

We were offered another funded NHS try and this time I stimmed on 600iu of Menopur again for 16 days. I was really concerned about the high dosage and the affect it might have on my already delicate eggs but it resulted in 11 eggs, 9 of which fertilised and two top quality embryos were transferred on day 3. They froze another 5 at day 3 and the rest didn't make it. We now have another negative and we are wondering where to go from here. At the time of my second cycle my e2 levels rose to over 8000 and I read that this can be detrimental to egg quality and I also read that embryos that don't make it past day 3 are often a result of sperm DNA issues?? So I don't want to try with any of our frozen embryos until we've had some more tests done. Has anyone been in a similar situation and recommend tests that might help us rule anything out? We already decided not to do another highly medicated cycle and we spoke to Create a while ago who recommended modified IVF with really low doses but my ovaries take ages on massive doses so can't see how small doses would work?? So am wondering about Natural IVF too...

Sorry for the VERY long post. Thanks for reading x


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## water-lily78 (Oct 21, 2015)

Hej Katie,

I'm sorry I can't give you advice, but just wanted to say that I seem to have similar issues as you. I have also stimmed twice now, both with 375 (max dose) Puregon and 450 Menopur (was told 450 was max) with similar outcomes that you mentioned. All ok on day 3, nothing on day 5. They gave me back a 3 day embie this time so still in my 2ww. I do worry likewise about how the high doses effect eggs when there is already a quality issue due to low AMH and then as well the quality of edometrium. I hope someone will post something helpful here for us both!


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## ScaryButExciting (Jan 29, 2015)

Cant help really, but can echo some of your concerns - the reality is that they just don't know enough yet and a whole myriad of things can be right/wrong...

I am with ARGC who in practice see no less success with high doses stimms and egg quality, but do not recommend cycling in a month with FSH>10, they would then rather that you wait for a 'good' month, if they don't exist anymore they recommend natural modified...

Create advocates FET to ensure optimal hormone levels, ARGC echoed the sentiment and said they see it for some women but obviously also a lot get pregnant with very high oestradiol (>10k)...

I also understand that after 3 day arrest can indicate sperm issues and we had DNA fragmentation done... ARGC also recommended karyotyping after 2nd failed cycle but Create would only recommend that if fertilisation issues were seen...

It is so hard as they just don't know and I enjoy getting the opinion of the hardcore people and the natural people and seeing where it matches and where it conflicts and am trying to figure out what feels/seems right for me...

Unfortunately the reality is that this is a game of chance and mostly you have to play to be able to win which is frustrating and extremely difficult...  It is a question of what you can afford financially and cope with emotionally. My advice would be to spend the money on doing more cycles rather than lots of other investigations UNLESS the experts give a clear indication of what might be wrong... I see a lot of people spending a lot of money they don't have on investigations which might or might not be useful because it feels good to be doing stuff, I think it is wiser holding your bravery and just doing more cycles, unless you can afford both. 

Good luck with your journey! Xxxxx


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## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi ladies thanks for your replies.

Water-Lilly I'm wishing you lots of luck for a BFP on this cycle. The 2ww is challenging to say the least so really hope it works out for you. Let us know 

ScaryButExciting thanks for the info. My clinic never mentioned about getting my FSH down to 10 but can't imagine it doing that anyway despite my months and months of supplements and acupuncture (although I'm convinced they all helped) I heard that Create always like to do FET because they feel it's better for the embryos to be transferred on a natural cycle so with that thought it mind we could try an FET next and see how we get on....its just so hard to know what to do for the best. Wishing you all the best too xx


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## ScaryButExciting (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi Katie, that is what I am trying this time... Transfer Wednesday I think so fingers crossed for 3rd time lucky for both of us xxxx


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## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

Good luck xx


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## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

How you doing water-Lilly??x


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## daffodil123 (Jun 6, 2015)

Hi Katie,  
I was just looking at the threads and came upon yours as I've too just had a failed second cycle.
You mentioned in your post that your hubby is fine but you were wondering about a DNA fragmentation test. My hubby has a low sperm count and motility and as our embryos didn't progress beyond day 3 on our first round they recommended the DNA frag test. We had it done (only about £400 at my unit) and my DH came back as right at the top end of normal/borderline high so they recommended IMSI in addiction to ICSI for our 2nd round. We had a much better response with our embryos this time and we had a couple that made day 5/6 this time and were a really good grade. We were told it was a 50/50 chance when we had 1 put back in whether it would implant but those were much much better odds than our first round. IMSI uses a microscope that's 6,000 more powerful than normal which is useful if there's dna fragmentation so it might be worth asking about it although I don't know if they'd indicate using it if your DH has a normal sperm count? Definitely worth asking though.


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## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi thanks so much for your message. That's really interesting. I've never heard of IMSI but will ask about it for sure. I'm wishing you the very best of luck for next time-the odds are in your favour


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## ScaryButExciting (Jan 29, 2015)

Hiya, just to let you know that 3rd time lucky does exist! Got my BFP Xmas day after my FET... Very early days so now whole new level of nervousness, but just wanted to let you know as the second failure feels so bleak...

Good luck on your journey, hope that 2016 is your year! X


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## Katie MIM (Apr 12, 2015)

Oh wow that is such fantastic news! Congratulations!!! It's so nice to hear positive stories like yours...keep us posted on how you get on. How many could you be pregnant with?xx


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## daffodil123 (Jun 6, 2015)

Aw thanks ladies   
Wow...congratulations! It really helps give me hope for our next round so thanks for sharing. Wishing you all the best for a happy healthy pregnancy.


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